Get Schooled

By JMac

August 2, 2005 02:46 PM | Link to this

I hope everyone looking at these random salaries will also consider that these professionals probably have their doctorate or specialist degrees and decades of experience.

By Bwilson

August 2, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this

A school is the equivalent of a company. The Principal oversees (in a large school)2000-3000 students and around 200 or so employees. I know plenty of managers who make about the same managing far less employees.

By Sscott

August 2, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

Doctorate? Specialist Degrees? You have got to be kidding… Check Lumpkin County.. No degree required…

By Mom

August 2, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this

Question 1: I have to wonder, are we truly receiving a return on our investment (taxes)by paying salaries this high without demanding that our school systems improve dramatically and immediately? If you were a sales manager of a midsize corporation and your numbers looked as dismal as our graduation rates - you would most likely be fired (To see the 2004 Diploma Rates @ http://www.gaschoolcouncil.org/home.html and look at the Diploma Rate Data for 2004. These are true percentages which remove the certificates of attendance and only report the tech prep and college prep diplomas )

Question 2: Why is it that public school administrators make so much money, but their feet are not held to the fire like the teachers? You hear so many complaints about teacher quality but if you don’t have good quality management it won’t matter how good your worker bees are.

Thanks

By TN

August 2, 2005 05:05 PM | Link to this

JMac…are you kidding? Give me a break! Masters at best and “working” toward the L-5 add-on. That’ll get you $50-60,000 easy. If you’ve got the L-5, the specialist, and have taught/worked at least 10 years you’re looking at $60-70,000, especially if you choose to work in a “hazardous” district. Check out the audit list above of all education personnel and go nuts! My county’s avg salary for an assistant is around $60,000/year. The principals pull in substantially more, and if you really want to look at the nice salaries, look at some of the big boys and girls, check out the district personnel, i.e. directors of curriculum and instruction, directors of human resources, etc. They get to tell us teachers what to do (although many of them haven’t been in a classroom for 20 years) and they make 2-3 times the average salary of a teacher with a masters degree.

By MamaS

August 3, 2005 08:20 AM | Link to this

It is a law that a principal cannot make less than any teacher under him. So, if there is a teacher on his faculty with a PhD and 20 years of experience, the principal must make more, even if all he has is a B.A. in P.E. So, if you wonder about a principal’s salary, just look at his staff.

By ltc

August 3, 2005 08:33 AM | Link to this

Please enlighten me! What part of a Masters degree makes a good teacher? I think very little. Too much emphasis is credited to these degrees. It is simply the individual who makes it work.

By jd

August 3, 2005 08:43 AM | Link to this

I have no problem with a principal making a living salary. What does bother me a bit is to see the names of retired principals, drawing pensions from the county, being paid nearly $50m a year on top of that for a part time position

By VW

August 3, 2005 09:12 AM | Link to this

Here’s a thought: Sometimes principals and assistant principals need those higher salaries because they are in so much debt from the student loans they used to get those advanced degrees.

By jd

August 3, 2005 09:18 AM | Link to this

I can’t help but wonder if the per student bonuses paid to principals in Gwinnett County are included in these figures. (but thats a whole nuther subject)

By jimmy edwards

August 3, 2005 09:39 AM | Link to this

These “degrees” , whether masters or 6 years or PhD are barely worth the paper they are printed on as most teachers simply do a couple of summer courses which involve reading books, journals, and talking via the internet with their teacher and classmates. They then earn even bigger bucks without showing any noticeable improvement in their classrooms. I do not ever want to hear a teacher complain about being underpaid. The audit document shows this to be a falsehood.

By Ernest

August 3, 2005 09:45 AM | Link to this

I don’t have an issue with the compensation paid to adminstrators in the school house. Many easily work between 60-80 hours per week. The good ones are worth it!

I do have an issue with those who aren’t as good who are ‘promoted’ to the central office, while retaining those salaries. True, some can provide value serving as coordinators which doesn’t require the management skills needed to run a school. I’m also concerned with the size of some of the central offices with respect to the number of teachers in the trenches. This is an area that stakeholders should constantly monitor.

Along similar lines, something else that should be monitored is retired administrators that immediately come back as consultants. I understand in NC, they were discussing passing a law to prevent state employees from coming back as a consultant/contractor until 6 months have passed after the separation date.

By Smith

August 3, 2005 09:59 AM | Link to this

If a corp. manager had to take anyone that came in the door including special needs individuals and criminals and hire him/her and could not let that person go for any reason and also be limited to control over that individual I wonder how well his company would do? He would also have to let others (many groups that have nothing in common, know nothing about his business, and do not communicate with each other) tell him what to do and involve him/her with mountains of details and paperwork that takes 80% of thier time. Wonder how long the business or the manager would last?

By ccorcorran

August 3, 2005 10:05 AM | Link to this

Jimmy, a Ph. D is a significant increase in degree level and the amount of education a teacher must obtain! Many teachers must do summer classes to get higher degree because that is when they have the time. Taking off for three years or more for a master or doctorate is simply not an option for most teacher because they can’t afford not to work. Plus I don’t know if you have a higher degree or not but “a couple of summer courses” is not what it takes to get a higher degree. Plus not all teachers go for Ph. Ds in Education. I as a language teacher am getting a masters in French which require a lot of in depth study just as a science teacher might go get a masters in physics. Yes, while their pedagogical techniques may not change much the amount of new information they can offer their students is well worth “the paper they are printed on”. So do a little more research before to label or berate, because these people work hard to teacher your kids and isn’t that worth atleast decent pay?

By Patti C

August 3, 2005 10:09 AM | Link to this

I am not a big supporter of Public Schools BUT…the salaries noted above are about right for the responsibility and hours worked. I know a lot of people that work in the system and it is a tough job. No doubt about it. And they are held responsible for their achievments or lack of. ANY person that has to listen to ticked off parents 24/7 has a tough job.

I do have to agree with the point made that Masters degrees and above are over blown much of the time. A Masters degree in basic education is very simple to get. It just takes time, not much brain work.

And we need to quit paying for those with advanced degrees to teach basic subjects to 10 year olds.

By IC

August 3, 2005 10:13 AM | Link to this

It is amazing to me that many of these comments disaprove of how much these people are making, especially when most people aren’t able to or are un willing to do these jobs. But I guess thats what happens when people speak on things that they have no clue about.

By Billy

August 3, 2005 10:17 AM | Link to this

“I’m also concerned with the size of some of the central offices with respect to the number of teachers in the trenches”

Earnest…in what county do you live?

Here in Walton County the percerption is also that the Central Office is over staffed and does little. Of course those with that view have never spent a minute in the chair of one of these coordinators. Many fail to realize how many hours are spent “after” the work day attending Borad meetings, maditory civic functions, meeting with parents groups, etc. One of my friends has heard the same issues about his job at the Central Office. Last week alone he spent 7 additional hours attending such functions…..and that is a normao week.

By jd

August 3, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this

IC, don’t know what thread you’re reading. This one looks like it’s pretty supportive of the salaries being paid

By Eve

August 3, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this

I teach H.S. math and have my Masters. Many teachers now just go ahead and get their masters degrees before taking their first job. That is what I did. It took 1 1/2 years for me and I think that is aout normal.

I can see the problem with automatic advancement. I know many teachers who get their masters or specialist degrees and are no better teachers than they were before. As someone noted, how smart does one need to be to teach fractions or spelling or history to a ten year old?

Teaching is hard work. It is just like the man on the side of the road on a 100 deg. day digging a ditch. There is no way that person can work under those conditions for eight hours a day. Teachers need summer break to get their nerves back togather.

And being a principle is even harder. You are the first one there and the last to live. Everones problem is your problem.

By Paul

August 3, 2005 10:35 AM | Link to this

“check out the district personnel, i.e. directors of curriculum and instruction, directors of human resources, etc. They get to tell us teachers what to do (although many of them haven’t been in a classroom for 20 years) and they make 2-3 times the average salary of a teacher with a masters degree.”

???? That is not true in most counties. The numbers above show that not to be true.

But maybe one day you can apply for a position at the “top” and then you can defend your position.

One question….how many days have you worked in the position you so strongly are against…..that’s what I thought. You have no idea what is required of a person in the Cental office.

Like someone said above…..It’s very easy for the person in the Air Conditioned truck to compalin about the guy with the shovel in his hand digging the ditch when that person has never held a shovel.

We all need to work togather.

By Samual

August 3, 2005 10:51 AM | Link to this

One major problem that we have when discussing income is that we always measure teacher pay to teacher pay. I think we would be better off to also compare teacher pay to what those in the private sector make and other public jobs.

One that has always “gotten” me is the pay of people like the County Clerk. The “clerk” position pays what the “clerk” position pays. If you win election you make the salary. We just elected a new clerk a few years ago. She won because she is kin to enough people in the county. She went from making $22,000 a year as a store clerk to over $75,000 a year! No educational or experience required. (She barely graduated from H.S.)

The County could “hire” this person for $30,000. But noooooooo…..we have to “elect” this person. Talk about wasted tax payers dollars.

Now if you want to get mad about “undeserved” incomes….look at your local government. At least the teachers have to get a degree. Any comments?

By TN

August 3, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this

Paul But maybe one day you can apply for a position at the “top� and then you can defend your position. One question….how many days have you worked in the position you so strongly are against…..that’s what I thought. You have no idea what is required of a person in the Cental office.

Who said I was complaining about their salaries? You must work in a central office somewhere and know you are overpaid, b/c you’re getting a bit defensive, here. I never once was complaining or arguing that they make too much money. I was just making note of those who make the most in my county. (And those positions do make the most and they do get to tell us what to do. Sorry to correct you, and once again, I’m not complaining.)

Look, I’ve held a shovel and I’ve been in front of the classroom….and I am pretty darn good at both, look at my test scores and you’ll see that my classes were the best in my department. Did I get a raise? Did I get any kind of special recognition? No. Did I raise cain over this? No. Am I planning on getting my masters and specialist and moving to administration to get paid? You’re darn right! Why shouldn’t I?

By bizuddy

August 3, 2005 12:03 PM | Link to this

“These “degreesâ€? , whether masters or 6 years or PhD are barely worth the paper they are printed on as most teachers simply do a couple of summer courses which involve reading books, journals, and talking via the internet with their teacher and classmates.”

This person has obviously never been in school for education. It’s grueling. I wish my wife only had to read a few weeks — she teaches and goes to school full time for her Masters in Elementary Ed. None of it’s online, and it’s what you would find in any other graduate classroom.

And to respond what another ignorant person wrote, degrees in Education show that those teachers are far better (when it comes to test scores, yes) than just “individuals” with little or no training. Teachers with training are far better for our children! Why do you think Teach for America teachers perform so abysmally? A good scientist DOES NOT necessarily make for a great science teacher.

By Ernest

August 3, 2005 12:08 PM | Link to this

Billy:

I’m in DeKalb and recently there was a reduction in central office staffers. IMO, I don’t believe the delivery of the services they provide were compromised.

Several years ago, there was an audit performed by Phi Delta Kappa and one point made was that our central office staff was unusually large. If memory serves me correct, SACs provides a guideline regarding the size of the central office staff to that of the overall school system. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong about that.

There are many in the central office that provide valuable services for their respective counties. You are right about that after hours meetings many participate in. Given that personnel costs are the largest expense for any school system (around 90% in ours), it is reasonable to question whether those not in the trenches are providing value.

By yesiamworried

August 3, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this

Actually, the latest research has shown that those who are great scientists or great mathmaticians often make lousy teachers. This has been very disappointing because we have such a shortage of qualified teachers in these fields.

I don’t know what system Earnest is in — but in our system the central office is really overstaffed and over paid (not necessarily because of what the demands of the job are, but because of how little they actually work plus how little they are really held accountable for. Additionally, they are usually failed principals. Tell me please, where else, besides family businesses perhaps, does incompetence get rewarded with a promotion.

By yesiamworried

August 3, 2005 12:30 PM | Link to this

Earnest — we were posting at the same time, I guess.

SACS is too closely linked to school systems to be considered an independent guide in my mind. They really have to be forced to do the right thing — that is violations have to be really serious before they act.

Too many high level school system officials do consulting/contract/free lance work with SACS.

By Patti C

August 3, 2005 01:10 PM | Link to this

TN….your 5:05pm post did in fact lay out your concern over the C.Off. salary structure. You need to re read your post. Anyone reading it would draw the conclusion that you were complaining….if not, so be it.

“The principals pull in substantially more, and if you really want to look at the nice salaries, look at some of the big boys and girls, check out the district personnel, i.e. directors of curriculum and instruction, directors of human resources, etc. They get to tell us teachers what to do (although many of them haven’t been in a classroom for 20 years) and they make 2-3 times the average salary of a teacher with a masters degree.”

By CeCe

August 3, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this

bizbuddy….

While I do not share the idea that Teaching degrees are worthless…let’s be honest…. The degree of Early Childhood Education is pretty simple work. I have seen the course work. The lowest SAT scores are obtained by those seeking to get degrees in Education. NO, that does not mean EVERY one that seeks a teaching degree is less than average. Some are very very smart.

And I would agree that just because someone is smart does not make them a better teacher….SO you and I would agree that automatic raises, just because someone completed their Masters degree, should be discontinued.

Any honest person would have to agree it takes little education to teach a 6 year old the Letters of the Alpha., color, shapes, and to count to 100.

How does one address the issue that many homeschoolers are doing great with their early education while being taught by parents with no college training at all?

By Ernest

August 3, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this

yesiamworried:

Yes we did! While SACs may be too close to school systems, their guidelines and recommendations should get attention, especially if any negatives appear in the report.

Would you do their jobs for these salaries?

Back to the original question, given what I know some school administrators have to put up with, I would not! As with any profession, there will be good ones and bad ones. While a process exists, it shouldn’t be so difficult to get rid of the bad ones, not just transfer them to another position that doesn’t require interacting with the public.

Are you the same yesiamworried on the DCSS parents yahoo group site? Your handle looks familiar….

By Charles R. Russell, Ph.D.

August 3, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this

It’s about time school managers are paid salaries equilavent to military managers and business managers, all of whom are prepared usually at the same universities. The coursework for all three is based upon the same principles of management. They all prepare individuals to manage human and non-human resources to achieve predetermined goals and objectives. People don’t care what business managers make because they don’t know what business managers do. However, they complain about what school managers make because they think they know what school managers do. I have been an Army Officer (20 years), a business manager (10 years), and an educator (22 years). The toughest job is the school administrator who must comply with state/federal laws and regulations, school board policies and the whims of parents and their children.

By Ray Ray

August 3, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this

“People don’t care what business managers make because they don’t know what business managers do.”

“They” don’t care because “They” do not pay the business owners salary. People are forced to pay for Public Education. Even those who have taken the responsibility to educated their child under their own dime..ie…private or home schooled.

Public education has evolved way beyond the useful point. Schools need to be run entirely by the County. No State, no Federal involvement.

I agree that a school admin. has a tough tough job and in most, not all cases, deserve good pay.

By JD

August 3, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this

Many of you are simply missing the point. First and foremost, how do you measure whether someone is a good teacher? Do you simply look at test scores? Exactly how do we measure a good teacher? It’s almost impossible in my opinion. I’ve been teaching for 11 years now and a great teacher in my opinion is a teacher that motivates and gets the absolute most out of their students. They are able to break down and explain work to their students in a way that enables them to absorb everything in. Notice I said most! This means that if this teacher is teaching at an urban/inner city school the scores might not be as high. Do we pay these teachers less? No, especially when many teachers refuse to teach in such settings.

I’m a hs teacher but stop bashing the early childhood teachers. They deserve their money. They deal with a different set of problems. Those early years are the most important years and please remember that homeschooling parents have 1 or 2 students try having 15-20 6 year olds in your control.

The whole NCLB Act is a joke. If we don’t plan on leaving kids behind, why is PRE-K awarded on a lottery system? Just a thought. I am currently working on my masters in leadership because I plan on becoming a principal. I’m doing it to have more power to make a differance but I would be lying if I said that monetary gain was not a factor. Principals earn their money but just like teachers, their are bad ones and good ones. But then again its like that in every profession. For the people that think teaching is an easy job, switch professions. If you really think its easy money, switch professions and see for yourself just how wrong you really are.

By Ryan

August 3, 2005 04:51 PM | Link to this

“If you really think its easy money, switch professions and see for yourself just how wrong you really are.”

Very few people have said that education is an easy profession.

I agree, get the Feds out of education in my County. I can assure you we are smart enough to screw things up without Washington being involved…or even the State for that matter.

The whole system needs to be redone. Cut out all the fluff. This would be how I would teach math.

7th grade…fractions and % for a full year. Yes, a full year. Maybe show them how to do a square root just to eliminate bordom for a day.

8th grade…basic algebra….and I mean basic. 2x = 2 Solve for X …For a full year. The kids would be so bored they would be begging to move on….but I would not.

9th grade….Basic Geometry….things like how to find the surface area of a circle…the volume of a cone, the square footage of a square.

10th grade….Move to a “little” more complex Algerbra. Maybe cover 50 pages….but no more.

11th grade….Simple simple trig….Simple.

12th grade….Basic Calculus..

My students would be so bored they would beg for me to move on…but I would not.

The process we have now is we teach 1000 pages and the students retain 25 pages…..I would teach them 300 pages and they would retain 290 pages of info. See the pattern????

Thats right….we would cover less but learn more.

I would also teach each boy how to change the oil in a car. How to frame a wall. How to survey a line…how to wire an outlet. How to fix leaking plumbing. In otherwords….thigs that they will be doing for the next 80 years.

By Christopher Smith

August 4, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this

I’m a high school English teacher, and I have a good idea of what administrators have to do to earn these supposedly astronomic salaries. My conclusion? I wouldn’t want to be an administrator for double the money. Why? You wouldn’t believe the kinds of hours administrators have to put in, not just during the school year, but during the whole of the summer as well. The list of things they have to attend to is endless: scheduling, classroom and general space allocations, funding issues, No Child Left Behind regulations, parking, after-school events management, lockers, the logistics of changing the entire school schedule for a week to accomodate state graduation exams…The list goes on and on, and that’s before they have to start dealing with discipline issues, parents, faculty inquiries and complaints, and a hundred unforeseen issues that just appear out of thin air on a day-to-day basis. Remember too that a lot of things administrators have to deal with on a day to day basis are also by their nature quite negative: student misbehavior; fights; complaints from parents…They have to be able to do a little bit of everything. I’m guessing that if these administrators have spouses and children, then they don’t see them very often. I’d love to see other, better paid professionals who love to congratulate themselves on what they do and how well they do it deal with what most school administrators have to take in stride on a day-to-day basis.

By Tom Wyatt

August 4, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this

Wow, there is some pretty heated dialogue over this topic. I am a 25 year old guy who originally thought Education was the career of choice for me. I attended UGA’s College of Education in pursuit of a Social Science Education Degree. I found growing up that in Education if you want to make money quick you need to pursue graduate degrees and work in Administration. However, if you enjoy teaching and you want to make money you have to have both longevity and graduate degrees. Currently I am not working in Education.

I believe it is very realistic to pay managers more- although it’s also important to realize the impact that teachers have on the lives of all kinds of kids with different talents, challenges, and abilities.

Over-whelmingly nation-wide with all of the strains in public education and for what teachers do they are groasley under paid, yet ultimately its not about the money, the greater question should be…..does each person whether administrator or teacher enjoy their position, and most importantly are they the best for the kids involved?

By Augutus

August 9, 2005 10:18 AM | Link to this

“groasley under paid”

“I attended UGA’s College of Education”

Well, there you go! (Just kidding)

By Lee

August 11, 2005 10:26 AM | Link to this

The salaries are only one part of the equation. It is the explosive growth in the NUMBER of administrators that concerns me.

For example, when I was in school, we had one principal, two secretaries, and the rest were teachers. Today, that same school has nearly the same amount of students, but now has two assistant principals and ten secretaries. Not counting all the “Directors” of —insert title here— in central office, it seems to me that we have a lot of “overhead” sitting around trying to justify their jobs.

Why the heck do we need an “Athletic Director” anyway??? Just wondering…