Get Schooled

By jack

June 23, 2005 11:15 AM | Link to this

Well having taught in a small rural school system there are some problems with money. Unfortunately some of the problems are caused by the crooks that run the system. For instance I taught in a lab that had $100,000.00 worth of equipment in it, the only problem was that equipment could have been purchased for half that price from the same company. There were also rumors floating around that the bus shop was putting in purchase orders for new tires and then putting retreds on the buses. Ironically the superintendent at the time bought a new piece of rental property about the same time he purchased the equipment for my lab. He bought the equipment with out getting bids and without any input from anyone at the school or county level. Kinda makes you wonder.

By James McCoy

June 23, 2005 11:30 AM | Link to this

The same folks who complain about their tax money going to rural counties are the same folks who complain about about crime and under educated kids. You can’t have it both ways,either you provide the money to educate our children now or we pay in the end with prisons.

By aj

June 23, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this

A whole lot of problems in this state would be solved with about 75 fewer counties, plus we’d save a LOT of money in all areas of government. However, I realize that there are a lot of sacred cows involved. Plus the money that those in power control by being in power. But I assure you, I’ll vote for the first gubernatorial candidate, Democrat or Republican or Martian, who runs on a platform of reducing the counties. It’s ridiculous that Georgia has more counties than Texas.

By Karen Armsby

June 23, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this

It is my understanding that the percentage of property taxes the ‘wealthier’ counties are required to turn over to the state that are then sent to the poor rural school districts end up comprising MOST of the rural district’s operating budgets. As they receive more state directed money, the rural school districts don’t improve on thier systems. Instead, they roll back their millage rates to further relieve the local residents of their property tax burden to fund the schools. The wealthier counties have no oversight or control over the use or misuse of their monies in the poorer or rural school districts.

By Fuzzy

June 23, 2005 11:50 AM | Link to this

You have to look at numbers, folks. If you have ever visited Quitman county, you’d see why they need help funding the school system. Without the commercial or residential growth that we have in the metro Atlanta area, it simply doesn’t matter how much Quitman and other counties raise millage rates. There isn’t enough high dollar development going on to fuel enough tax increase to keep schools going. And let me tell you, as a teacher in a small system, I’d much rather have my kids in a school of 500 versus 2000. We may not have much money, but we produce excellent kids because our numbers are so low. And teachers who come here come because they want the small classes and aren’t worried about the payscale difference. What’s really tragic is that while we argue about sharing the wealth, what we really need to do is equalize teacher salaries by raising state levels and eliminating local supplements so poorer districts can attract the better teachers. Seems fair to me to share the wealth metro counties can generate with those who lack the tax base. A better way to do it would be to prorate state funds on basis of local tax base. Higher tax base, lower state input. State money could go, without all the shifting of funds, to the poorer districts who can’t generate it locally. How about setting property mil rates statewide so those receiving more state money don’t cut mil rates locally?

By brent

June 23, 2005 12:35 PM | Link to this

AJ — AMEN!

But even consolidating counties wouldn’t fully address this problem — as the majority of the population (and wealth) in the state is concentrated in one relatively small geographic center. Combining 3 or 4 small, poor counties would just leave you with 1 larger, but still poor county.

The bigger question is why in the world do we tie education funding to local property taxes in the first place? It’s a ridiculous system — well, ridiculous if what we really want is equality in education. But I have a sneaking suspicion that those of us who have it good (or better, at least) are not really all that concerned about anyone but ourselves…

By jd

June 23, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this

I find it rather amusing that a monopoly school system would be beefing about not having adequate funding when it has been documented time and again that private institutions of learning are capable of producing the same or better results at a lesser cost.

Perhaps school systems in Georgia that feel they are disadvantaged should consider contracting for their educational needs to a third party.

By MrLiberty

June 23, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this

Study after study shows that money spent does not equate to results out. How is it that a private school can educate a child for $3000 on average when Quitman county feels it needs to spend $12,646 for worse results?

The answer, as always comes down to government.

Why are these schools feeding children? Are there no charitable programs that could do it for far less? And why should teachers make as much money? If the cost of living is less, then they should make a market-appropriate wage. And what do these rural schools look like? Are they the same grandiose monstrocities like the new high school in Marietta? And the real questions, how many administrators does the district employ versus teachers? How many regulations must they deal with, and what exactly is the cost? How many decisions do they get to make at the local level? Remember when the republicans said they wanted educational decisions to be made at the local level, then they expanded the DOE, massively increased the number of regulations, and then imposed the wonderful federal boondoggle of No Child Left Behind (and all of its ridiculous costs)?

Man, if this doesn’t show why all government involvement in schooling should end, then nothing does.

By C.R.H.

June 23, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this

Private schools can do better with less money for many reasons: less $$ at the top (fewer admin.), no or little requirements to follow the same mandates as public schools, and of course private schools get to decide who enters or doesn’t enter! People who are paying thousands of dollars to send their kids to private school obviously place a premium on education & the kids know it! The parents are much more likely to be heavily involved with all aspects related to their child’s education…the same can’t be said for a HUGE percentage (but not all!) of the parents of kids in public schools. Teachers deal with less disruption in their classrooms and the students are typically performing academically at or above their grade level…not too much “social promotion” going on at private schools. I have taught in a private school…loved it! But due to dwindling enrollment, positions had to be cut and eventually the school had to close.

By FunkyGee

June 23, 2005 01:49 PM | Link to this

What a great idea. Let the guy who busts a* and makes a great income pay for the lazy ones. Good old America. Lets throw more money down the bottomless pit. If the schools showed that they were doing a great job with the cash we give them my opinion would be different. Why do we have to continually finance and support the cluless? Like Fuzzy.

By jd

June 23, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

Obviously you believe lie #2 of the nine basic lies about school choice.

All of these lies are explained in full and debunked on the Center for Education Reform’s web site.

http://www.edreform.com/upload/NineLies_dec03.pdf

Please take the time to read the truth about school choice.

By Richard

June 23, 2005 02:08 PM | Link to this

JD. Looks like the blog formatter ate the first two underscores in your link to the “Nine Lies” document. Try this link: Nine Lies About School Choice: Answering the Critics

The executive summary and full report are linked at the bottom of the page.

By lynn

June 23, 2005 03:18 PM | Link to this

Next week, the Texas Legislature will go into special session because they failed to answer a judge’s order to change school funding. The robin hood system had been declared unconsitutional.

School funding is very complicated, people who expect their children to have a high quality education are often willing to pay more. (look no further than Decatur city schools)

It will be interesting to watch this process as it moves forward, if the state is forced to spend less on metro system (or take more from them, as the case may be), support for public education will quickly erode and then no one wins.

By Jim

June 23, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this

Got some bad news for you… It doesn’t cost over $7K a year to educate a child. We’re all paying for government waste that in this case is known as the public school system…layers of administration.

By Juan Valdez

June 23, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this

I grew up in one of these poor rural school districts that is suing for wealth re-distribution under the guise of “equitable� education opportunities for their children. I knew I wasn’t being afforded the same quality of educational experience that my counterparts in metro-Atlanta were receiving. However, I wasn’t given any choice in the matter so I made the most of those lesser opportunities and still managed to get a pretty good education.

My parents either consciously or unconsciously made the choice to live in a small town with a poor school district. There are consequences to every decision. Along with less crime, less traffic congestion, and a slower pace of life, they also received lower incomes, poorer medical care, higher consumer goods prices and yes, a lower quality education system.

In their pursuit of “fairness� the plaintiffs in this case want to have it both ways. They want to continue to live where they have chosen, but they want us “wealthier� folks to make up the difference for them. As I tell my own child, “There ain’t no such thing as fair.� Nothing about life is fair. You play the cards you are dealt and do the best you can with the hand you draw.

If the quality of their children’s education was that important to these folks, they would either make the necessary sacrifices and send their kids to private schools, or move to a school district that would afford them better opportunities.

The last time I checked, this was still America and you are still free to live where you please.

By C

June 23, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this

Someone earlier wrote: “It’s ridiculous that Georgia has more counties than Texas.”

Actually, Georgia has 159 counties; Texas has 254.

By Iteach

June 23, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this

One should also look at motivational factors. What is the drive for education when you cannot see any proof that education makes a difference. Teaching in a smaller community I fight to inspire my students.

I’m a black make that teaches in a predominately black school. My students seldom see education making a difference in the lives of those around them. What my students do see is that if you have the right hook up you’ll land a job at one of the plants and get good money. They see most of those that persue education leave and seldom return (or are not heard of). They see the blacks with a higher education working in the department stores.

I often ask my students to name three black professionals and they have a hard time. What they will do is tell you who’s making “big money” at one of the plants (and they only went to H.S).

We can throw as much money as we want to at the education of rural students and inner city students but, we would do more to show them how education makes a difference. Maybe if they understood and saw the importance of an education they would be inspired to work harder in school.

By TTB-POTS

June 23, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this

Some thoughts on private schools…

These observations are based on my friend who taught in a private Catholic school and my visits to private schools and my discussions with staff…

They can often afford to teach a child for less money because:

Teachers are paid significantly less - even for advanced degrees (real example: $25, 000 for a master’s). Most teachers accept the trade off for the benefit of smaller classes and the ability to get rid of problem children.

Less overhead for administration - smaller schools need fewer people to run them.

Less overhead for food - many private schools do no have food services. Parents need to provide a daily sack lunch.

Less overhead for transportation - they have no busses; parents provide all transportation. Some have busses, but smaller runs, picking up every age group at once rather than three runs for each of the three age groups.

Less overhead for the physical plant - either they are housed in smaller buildings that are less expensive to power, heat, and cool or they are part of churches and share costs with the church (usually because the church has determined that to be a worthwhile expense for their ministry).

Private schools often don’t have some of the expensive “Bells & whistles” of a public school.

Private schools have a lot of good qualities, but there are areas where they have to scrimp because they often are run on tight budgets. The public sector could learn a lesson or two, I’m sure.

As far as the rural counties go, teachers are generally paid significantly less than the metro areas becasue they can’t afford the extra county money - check rural county websites - I’m sure their salaries are posted.

Tax bases in the rural counties suffer from the fact that houses aren’t valued as much out there. Maybe instead bringing a lawsuit, county officials should try spending their time and money bringing more jobs to the area.

Georgia should definitely consolidate some of the counties - it would save a lot in the long run. I have never lived anywhere where there was so much overlap - not just in education, but law enforcement and other areas.

By Karen Armsby

June 24, 2005 08:58 AM | Link to this

TTB-POTS, What are you referring to in public scools as “expensive Bells & whistles?”

By Daisy

June 24, 2005 09:24 AM | Link to this

Redistributing the wealth may have nothing to do with it. If you look at the article about the illusion of passing Ga. school systems, you find a list of the 12 “recognized” as needing improvement. Four of those could be considered to be located in metropolitan areas (Savannah, Columbus, Atlanta). The two in Atlanta are —where else— in Cobb County. Maybe if those two spent less money on laptops & Taj Mahal facilities they could apply some money to educating kids, something many rural systems seem to do at least adequately with far less.

By Tony

June 24, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this

How about we do away with all government schools, let us keep our money and send our children where we want to. Poor children would get a voucher to go wherever they wished. Government schools eat money and never improve because they have no incentive to improve. Market forces will force schools to compete if we were allowed to choose which school to attend. But then liberals could not brain wash your child or use the government schools to institute their version of social enginering and that is why they so oppose such an idea.

By Nikole

June 24, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this

Many rich counties (and researchers) often say money does not ensure a better education. I believe then that we should all have the same amount of money for our schools. In our government, you can’t always get what you want. I do not want my tax dollars funding war, but I have no say in where the money goes. States should put all property taxes in the state’s budget and appropriate a standard per pupil allotment across the entire state. No county should have more per pupil than another. Because more money doesn’t guarantee a better education, right?

By Juan Valdez

June 24, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this

The problem here is not the lack of funding, but the poor quality of student that these schools have to work with. There has been a brain drain going on in Georgia’s rural areas for at least the past 35 years. Those of us with enough ambition and intellect left for better opportunities years ago and we haven’t gone back.

I grew up in rural Georgia with a lot of kids whose only ambition in life was to graduate high school with as little effort as possible and then get some dead end, low wage job so that they could buy a pickup truck. These kids were raised by parents who had themselves barely graduated from high school, if at all. Today those kids are still there in my hometown raising know-nothing, do-nothing kids who couldn’t care less about their education. I’m not sure that cycle will ever end.

To compound the problem, these school districts have a difficult time attracting quality teachers. I would agree that lower compensation is a contributing factor, but I also think that when given a choice between living in Alpharetta and living in Bryan County, GA, must candidates are going to opt for Alpharetta.

One of the previous posters noted that Savannah is on the list of “needs improvement� school systems. If you know anything at all about Savannah schools, you would know that anyone who can afford it in Savannah, (and a lot of folks who can’t), sends their kids to private school. If school performance were directly related to funding, then Savannah schools should shine since they have a large tax base that only has to educate about half of it’s eligible student population.

This is a cultural issue that I don’t think can be changed by increased funding. If the plaintiffs here are successful in getting the wealth re-distributed to their favor, I seriously doubt that it will result in increased test scores and academic performance for their schools. They really should spend their energy in getting their communities to value education.

By Karen Armsby

June 24, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this

Juan Valdz, Well said and so true. Parents are the first teachers and primary motivators for their children. If they don’t care, most of their kids won’t either. You either had parents who cared or you did it for yourself and paid attention, got educated and moved up and out.

By Dan

June 24, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this

Juan First of all I agree the most important factors in a childs education are the child and the parents. So in a way I agree with the poor quality of student theory, however I think the cause of that is at issue. People in general are the same as they were 100 years ago there are slackers coasters and workers always have been always will be.
Today to many people think they have a “right” to be educated. When they fail there are armies of people ready to tell them it is not there fault but societies, there parents, racism, classism the teacher graded in red ink and their feelings were hurt. This creates an atmoshere where the coasters and slackers (the workers just get it done anyway) sit there and demand that the teacher educate them.

By agm

June 27, 2005 08:11 AM | Link to this

“Quitman county feels it needs to spend $12,646?”

There is reasoning here that you are missing. There are certain positions that must be filled whether you have 100 students or 1000. For example, media specialist, counselor… and if you only have 1 out of 100 who needs special services, you still have to employ a certified special ed teacher. So the reason that it costs less in larger counties, is that the FTE monies that are given per student are spread out more in larger systems. Taking into account that the FTE money in a larger system might mean the special ed position is paid by perhaps 15 out of every 100 students’ FTE monies.

By Sydney

June 27, 2005 09:21 AM | Link to this

This is to clarify Georgia’s teacher salaries. There is a base payment for each level of teacher, first year, fifteenth, Master’s, B.A., B.S., etc.(This you can see at the DOE website.) There are also county supplements. These vary with ability of the county to pay them. Metro areas have a better ability and need so they get paid more.

Should the teachers in rural Georgia still get paid 30+ a year? Yes! They still have to pay for the same things in rural counties as they do in the metro areas. Gas is expensive no matter where you are. Also, teaching is a tough job; anyone who tells you that it is easy obviously has never spent time in a classroom. Plus, without teachers, you can’t have doctors, lawyers, IT people, etc. Teachers are the basis of society.

And to the man who said that people don’t have the right to be educated? That is a very sad point of view. Lack of education just perpetuates the cycle of violence and poverty. One of the best investments we can make is investing in the children, who really are our future.

By anonymous county school superintendent

June 27, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this

Funding for education is a real issue and consolidation of small school districts is one asnwer to increasing funding without increasing taxes - Georgia has 180 independent school systems - some serving over 100-200 schools while too many others serve only 3 schools - the State of Gergia funds approximately 65% of school systems’ expenses - this includes the salaries and administrative costs for central offices - those expensive buildings with staffs that educate not one child - Georgia does not need 180 school superintentents with 180 assistant superintendents and 180 personnel directors and 180 of everything else that is incredibly expensive with school system’s central offices. Georgia needs to start first by consolidating 21 city school systems (i.e. Buford City, Rome City, Bremen City, Cartersville City, Carrollton City, Social Circle, Commerce City, etc.) into their respective counties. This move alone would save Georgia taxpayers over $50mm annually. Then Georgia should consolidate the smallest of the reamining 159 county school districts into say 120 consolidated county districts - this move would also save Gergia taxpayers another $50mm in annual savings. Now, the next question should be - How can we best serve the students of Georgia with the $100mm in annual savings? If Gov. Perdue, Superintendent Cox and State Education guru Dr Scafidi are truly serious about running Georgia’s school system more efficiently and maximizing resources - then this ought to be the road they take!!!

By Karen Armsby

June 27, 2005 10:02 AM | Link to this

Anon County School Super, In your opinion, which standardized tests are the best measure of student progress, and how often should standaized tests be given over the span of K-12 grades?

By shala

June 27, 2005 10:02 AM | Link to this

I have 2 words for you. RURAL MISSISSIPPI! That is where I was raise and got an education, Primary and Secondary! This is the poorest state in the nation.

There is a vicious cycle going on. If their parents didn’t finish high school or college, the students tend to not go. Start with educating the parents and that is when the kids will follow.

Bill Cosby made it plain and clear what the problem was. We wanted to discredit him for speaking the truth. If we start educating our students at home as well as, at school they will keep up and sometimes stay ahead of the class.

By metro teacher

June 27, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this

The school superintendent is correct!! Georgia’s school system and Georgia taxpayers waste millions each year employing bureacrats (within county school central offices) that do not educate one single child. I know what $100mm could do each year; it would fund the employment of close to 2,000 teachers or it could be used to construct 1,000 new classrooms. It could be used to get rid of portable buildings. It could be used to fully wire every school and classroom to the internet. $100mm is too much money wasted and every parent of every school age child should let Governor Perdue know we want the waste stopped!!!!

By Sam in Buford

June 27, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this

Anon School Super hit the nail on the head! Georgia has 21 city school systems that are a leftover relic from over 100 years ago. They may have served a genuine purpose 100 years ago in providing an education to city children but today these 21 city school systems actually hurt the 21 counties in which they are located because the county school systems can not benefit from the commercial tax base within cities/urban areas and consequently the adjoining county tax base is nothing more than residential, rural and agriculture (all of which have some degree of tax exemption). Consequently, these 21 city school systems have a high degree of local tax funding with a minimal millage rate while the adjoining county districts have to tax at the maximum rate. There is too much disparity in the way the 180 school systems in Georgia receive funding from local tax sources and without a doubt it is most unequitable. I also agree it is obviously wasteful for the State to fund 65% of administrative costs for very small school districts when a merger of districts can achieve the same level of service for less cost.

By Karen Armsby

June 27, 2005 11:08 AM | Link to this

Shala, It’s hard to motivate adults who either didn’t care to learn when they were students or were passed along despite their failings. But, there are plenty of free adult literacy and GED prep classes offered all over the country. When adults want help with their education there is usually a community program nearby to help them get started.

I don’t think sending more money to rural systems will help break the cycle of poor learners. I think educators need an efficient and low cost tool that would engage and motivate students who come from non-motivated households.

When I used to tutor adults in reading and GED prep a recurring statement from them was they didn’t see the point in learning all that stuff in school. They could not understand the way knowledge grew and was used. From my experience I think we need to repeatedly show our ‘at risk’ kids exactly what the path of learning can lead to for them, how their knowledge can grow and be put to use, and lead them to a career and good life. Since they don’t have positive influences at home, and they are not engaged at school, then the schools need to use better motivation tools that won’t take away valuable teaching time form the rest of the class. I am not a teacher and if this has all been done before, then forgive me, but i think it is lacking. I remember a girl in my daughter’s elementary classes who was not a good student but she seemed bright; she was disruptive, and her family life was less than ideal. I predicted she would eventually drop out of school at some point, and she did in 9th grade.

I have been reading a wonderful book called ‘Blink, The Power of Thinking Without Thinking’ by Malcolm Gladwell. He analyses how we think. He relates a story (p. 53) about a test devised by a psychologist, John Bargh, which is an example of a priming experiment. In the experiment, in which subjects were given scrambled words to form into sentences, there were embedded theme words that influenced their subsequent behavior later in the exercise. Embedded rude words resulted in more assertive behavior, and embedded polite words led to exceedingly polite behavior.

Two Dutch researchers (Blink, p. 56) used a priming type of experiment with students to see how they performed on a test. Those students who were told to think about soccer hooligans got 42.6 percent of Trivial Pursuit questions correct, but those told to think and write about what it would take to be a professor got 55.6 of the questions correct.

One statement Gladwell makes (p. 85) is that “our unconscious attitudes may be utterly imcompatible with our stated conscious values.” He gives examples of how our self image can influence good or failing performance on tests, despite the knowledge level of the tester.

You may think I am rambling but here is my point; if we can prime students with positive words in simple exercises and also show them why they are learning and where learning can lead, then I think it may help the kids lacking in direction or structure at home. For young sudents not reading, use pictures of adults of all cultures working in a variety of professions, and talk about what they do, what they had to learn, and how they help people. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. For older students, the career discussions can continue and you can use positive words embedded in sentence scrambling to put the students in a smart frame of mind for learning and testing.

Parents are our kids first teachers and continue to encourage and guide them throughout school, to put learning into a context. Kids who don’t have the feedback at home, that aren’t encouraged, that can’t put knowledge into a real life context need that at school. I think we can break the cycle of poor learners in families.

By RF

June 27, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this

Another book to read that sheds a great deal of light on the educational problems caused by poverty is A Framework for Understanding Poverty by Dr. Ruby Payne. One of the greatest problems faced by teachers and school systems is how to educate children from generational poverty and help break the cycle. How ironice it is that we spend more to “educate” some children each year than is made in income in the children’s homes!