Get Schooled

By Swan

June 16, 2005 09:24 AM | Link to this

I hope the teens in Clayton County (from both Mt. Zion and Jonesboro) take a moment to read this story and breathe a sigh of relief.

By James McCoy

June 16, 2005 09:35 AM | Link to this

I read that story and was shocked to see someone go to prison for three years for the crime of vandlism. The use of our prison space is abused by what I call law and order Judges and District Attorneys. Yes these two boys should have faced some type of punishment,but three years in prison is abuse of the system. How about the CEO’s and other business people who robbed their companies bank accounts to enrich themselves and their buddies,will the likes of Ken Lay(Enron)see a day in prison? How about the former head of Healthsouth who has convince a jury in Alabama that he has now found Jesus and don’t deserve to go to jail. Richard Pryor got it right years ago when he said,” you go down to the courthouse for justice,all you see is just us” (Poor people).

By John Wilson

June 16, 2005 09:45 AM | Link to this

The destruction of school equipment to the tune of over $200,000.00 is not some prank. It is stealing from the people of Rockdale County. Though I seldom agree with Judge Nation, these young adults committed a childish crime but should be punished as adults. Now that they are out of jail perhaps they should go to the school and apologize to each and ever student and teacher the stole from. They still committed the crime and did the time. The others you mentioned, well maybe you need to appoint yourself Judge and Jury to them.

By T. R.

June 16, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

A tradgedy has occured in Rockdale county.

They should be working off their debt to society with community service - not learning how to be real criminals from the experts in prison.

My prayers are with the families of those teens.

By MrLiberty

June 16, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

Vandalism is a property crime with a tangible and definable cost. Under no circumstances should any of these kids be allowed to get out of paying these costs back - even if it takes the rest of their lives. Further, their parents - if they are under 18 - should be forced to pay up as well. This is what parental responsibility is about.

Prison is not a solution. Nothing is learned by sending someone to prison.

Accountability for the costs is the only proper solution. For these clowns, as well as the jerks in Clayton county.

By Dave

June 16, 2005 12:18 PM | Link to this

As a taxpaying citizen of Rockdale County I feel they were released too early and did not serve enough of their prison sentence.

By SET

June 16, 2005 01:13 PM | Link to this

Prison takes anti-social people out of the gene pool for the time they are gone. Usually they can’t reproduce from prison. This is a good thing. Anti-Social Personality Disorder tends to run in families. California’s 3 strike system allows strikes to be collected starting in the late teens. The system is loosely enforced so sometimes it’s the 5th or 8th strike that ends in a life sentence. But the most anti-social people can easily collect 3 to 6 strikes by age 21.

So in addition to getting the ASPD people out of our cities we also keep them from breeding for the time they are in prison. This is why “community service” is a bad substitute for prison. It won’t clean up the gene pool.

By Anonymous

June 16, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this

Patti,

How do I get in touch with you. I have a story you may be very interested in…

Susan Mills susanmills@bellsouth.net

By ambergris

June 16, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this

AMEN!!!!! Put idiots like this away.They will have alot of time yo think about it.

By kelly

June 16, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

Adults spend less time in prison for injuring people. Judge Nation is more concerned with notoriaty than he is what is best for Rockdale and its citizens. Why bother having a juvenile justice system, if when juveniles commit crimes such as vandalism, they are tried as adults. Judge Nation is an embarrasment to Rockdale County. I wish someone would have the nerve to run against him!

By SET

June 16, 2005 05:38 PM | Link to this

I’ve read the article and the unkind comments about Judge Nation. I’m in California and we have a law and order problem here also. The Judge in question is in the position to know which “young men” are worth saving and which are just animals to be put down. Notice the comment in the article about the juvenile priors…

It doesn’t matter entirely which outrage the defendant has done this time. What matters is the totality of the criminal history. That is the guiding rule behind our “3 strikes” system that is actually “5 or 6 strikes” because most defendants get a break in the beginning. At some point you eliminate the anti-social from the gene pool even if the latest offense is stealing a pizza.

Eventually those who work with these personalities recognize that there is a monster inside the particular criminal that we have to free the community from - preferably forever. Some of these personalities can be spotted even before puberty but the vast majority can be recognized as young adults. That is apparently what happened here and that judge was doing his job.

You’re lucky to have him.

By Dave

June 17, 2005 08:56 AM | Link to this

Regarding comment by Kelly…….. Do you really think the destruction of over $250,000 of property is just a case of “juvenile vandalism”? This was a serious crime and Judge Nation’s punishment was just.

By Anonymous

June 17, 2005 09:08 AM | Link to this

Judge Nation should not have the right to decide “which young men are worth saving”. I would say that is Jesus’ right. My son at 17 was victimized by this racist judge for a fist time offense with marijuana. Not only did he not get first time offender status, he got jail time and probation. Another teen (white) with a stronger charge (driving a vehicle with others under the influence of marijuana) got to write a letter saying why he would never do it again and community service. That’s the kind of judge Nation is and someone needs to run against him and get him out of that priveleged seat he sits in.

By kelly

June 17, 2005 09:17 AM | Link to this

What benefit is there to putting a 15 year old into prison until he is 19 for vandalism? The juvenile that goes in with a problem, comes out with many more problems and probably even more anti social than before. I’m glad that some people in the community feel vindicated, but nothing pro active has happened yet. Judge Nation has repeatedly handed down tougher than normal sentences to make a statement, and the crime in Rockdale has only increased.

By C.R.H.

June 17, 2005 10:25 AM | Link to this

$250,000 thats $$$ that won’t be used to buy new equipment, books, videos, teacher training, special treats or events for kids, facility needs, etc…These sorry individuals also destroyed PERSONAL property, not all of the things in a school are taxpayer funded. Teachers spend their own money on many things in the classrooms. If someone broke into your house and did that sort of damage, you’d be the 1st the ask that they get sent up the river. To the person posting about her son getting busted with pot, compare apples to apples, possession is different than being with people under the influence. Also I don’t think your son went to jail because he was black (as you stated) but because he was caught carrying a illegal drug.

By James McCoy

June 17, 2005 10:47 AM | Link to this

CRH: your points are well taken,but what you and the other law and order types fail to realize is the monster that you are creating by sending them to prison for vandlism. Thats not to dismiss the damage but in this day and age when we can send a man or woman to the moon we can do better then prisons,if we want to as a society. I hear too many people nowdays who are so quick to throw away the key.

By Nikole

June 17, 2005 10:54 AM | Link to this

To CRH- The anonymous person stated that the white male was under the influence, driving a car with other people in it. He put his life and others in danger. That is a much more serious crime than just having marijuana in your pocket. Why is it ok for the white male to just apologize for using drugs while the black male went to jail for having them in his possession? I think that race is obviously a factor here.

By brent

June 17, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this

It’s very tempting for any law-abiding citizen to jump on the “lock ‘em up and throw away the key” bandwagon whenever the topic of crime comes up — regardless of the nature of the crime. No question, what these kids did was a serious offense & they deserve to be punished and to make restitution for the damage they caused. So coming down hard on these kids by sending them to prison is very appealing to that part of us all that wants revenge for wrongs done to us. But our criminal justice system & our correctional system should not be solely about revenge; they should be about trying to solve the problem.

Does locking up these kids help repay any of the damage they caused? No — quite the contrary, it costs the taxpayers of the state even more money to house & feed these kids (in space that is already in very short supply, mind you, and would be better used for dangerous, violent offenders).

Why not force these kids to work off their debt. Heck, place them under house arrest, if you want — but they should be out doing something to repay the damage they did rather than sitting in a prison cell.

The only possible argument in favor of such a punishment is that perhaps it will serve as a deterrent to others. But that logic is flawed. Anyone who would be deterred from vandalism by this case is obviously a logical person — and most likely the type of person who would not do something so stupid in the first place, regardless of this “scared straight” sentence.

The whole prison (or even death) as deterrent argument just doesn’t hold up. We have among the highest percentage of our population behind bars of any industrialized nation on earth, but that doesn’t seem to help our crime rates at all. We are also one of (if not the) only western nation with the death penalty; but again, that doesn’t seem to make violent crime any less likely here.

Maybe if we used more resources trying to identify and correct the problems that tend to lead to crime (poor economic conditions, inadequate family support systems, vast inequities in low income school systems, etc.) we could actually make a dent in the crime rate. And maybe then would wouldn’t have to spend so much prisons, which clearly are not very successful at changing behavior.

By C.R.H.

June 17, 2005 12:44 PM | Link to this

I am all for having these vandals pay for ALL of the damages. The question is, how are they going to be able to pay? How much “community service” must be done before a debt of over $250,000 is PAID? Is there any information about the past run-ins these guys had with the law prior to this incident? If they had a history of criminal behavior, locking them up was the best alternative (and they should still have to pay.). If they were “1st timers”, they should have had some YDC time, a long probation, and complete restitution. Sounds fair to me. And I know this is off-topic, but someone brought it up, I think people who are put in jail (or the prisons) should be made to pay back at least a portion of the costs. Before someone has a coronary; I don’t have any problems with taxpayers paying for technical training for people who are locked up…I would rather they learn a trade (like plumbing, heavy equipment operation or carpentry, etc…) so they can make an honest living.

By cl

June 17, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this

i think it is great they got that sentence. all 3 of my girls attend,attended, jh house and it was a shame the boys did this. one of the boys lived in our neighborhood and went to school with our middle child, if parents put thier children in after school activities then they would not have to resort to damaging other peoples properties. it just made me sick when this happened.

By SET

June 17, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this

Singapore has a very effective criminal justice system that does not depend on warehousing anti-social individuals for crime control. They whip them to the point of permanent scarring and possible hospitalization, then follow that up with shorter jail time and halfway houses. And I don’t think they use jury trials as much as we do.

Our justice system was created to check government power not to punish and deter criminals. The founding Fathers were criminals in the system they came from. it was fun for awhile but now we are overrun with criminals who act out for fun and profit. And jail is a way of life not a deterrent. And their mothers raised them this way. (They usually don’t have fathers)

I’d like to adopt the Singapore tactics and the states should be free to start doing so. We need a lot more terror in our Justice system to ever have a hope of taking back our cities from (mostly male) anti-socials and their female enablers. Cut the jail terms, open the halfway houses, and whip their butts raw. At least for the old common law crimes of violence and theft. (Not for regulation violations like medicinal marijuana).

Still, these hoodlums seem to have been punished by Judge Nation because they were incorrigible hoodlums even at their young age. They belong in jail because that’s where hoodlums go to live.

Their parents (Or at least their custodial mothers) should have been jailed (or whipped) along with them.

No mercy for criminals or those that keep them.

By brent

June 17, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this

C.R.H. — You probably already know this, but it wasn’t clear from your post. There actually already are training programs exactly as you described, for various skilled trades, as well as GED classes, etc. Georgia also has this thing called Georgia Correctional Industries, which uses inmate labor to manufacture various goods used within the department of corrections (and possibly other state agencies as well, but I’m not positive about that). There’s even talk — and I don’t know if this is finalized or not — but there is talk of allowing private employers to open operations INSIDE prisons and use inmate labor (which is a whole other can of worms — i.e. companies getting inmate labor on the cheap while law-abiding citizens on the outside can’t find jobs, but I digress).

There are also facilities called Transitional Centers, where inmates who are nearing the end of their sentence can leave to go to work at outside jobs — they pay room & board (albeit cheap) and there are employment coordinators on site to help them find employers who will actually hire them.

All of that is well & good, but the problem is that for the most part, regardless of what type of training these people get while they’re in prison, it is still extremely difficult to find an employer who is willing to overlook the stigma of having been in prison and actually hire these people for anything more that minimum wage jobs (if anything). Which, of course, increases the likelyhood that these folks will end up resorting to crime again & end up right back in prison.

I’m not trying to make excuses for these people. Clearly, they making bad decisions and are not living up to their responsibility to society. BUT, like I mentioned in my earlier post, what is our desired goal? Are we only concerned with the punitive side of this? Or are we really interested in decreasing crime? If all we care about is punishing people, then by all means, keep building prisons as fast as we can & lock everyone up for as long as possible. But if we really are interested in lessening crime, then I think it’s pretty obvious we need to look at some other approaches in addition to just putting people away. Too often the reality is that once someone gets sent to prison, he/she is frequently a lost cause.

By C.R.H.

June 17, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this

Brent, I actually was aware of the programs, good information in your post though. I just wanted to post that I wasn’t saying “lock ‘em up and throw away the key”. My step-father served time (young and troubled, I guess you can say) and learned a trade (welding) while in. He is now an over the road truck driver (has been for over 25 years). He hasn’t stepped on the wrong side of the law since he was released, except for some speeding tickets…now he just fears my mother’s wrath. I also have many (too many) family members who have served relatively long sentences, mostly for theft & drugs. Not everyone who goes to prison will end up as a lost cause. If these people took responsibility for their actions and honestly wanted the opportunity to get back in society and make a living, there are opportunities. I don’t feel bad that most released inmates end up with minimum wage jobs, sometimes you have to do that until your prove you are not going to screw up again. They shouldn’t expect a $50,000 a year job considering most of them have little to no education and minimal skills. Everyone starts somewhere. I have been teaching for several years and earned 2 college degrees coming from the exact same background as the criminals in my family. I can’t really put my finger on where they took the wrong turn and where I took the right turn, but it happened. Most of my students also come from similar circumstances, most of them are not, nor will they ever be, criminals. I guess the real point of my blogs is that I am not too sympathetic towards people who break the law and then try to blame others, their “horrific childhood”, poverty or whatever.

By brent

June 17, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this

C.R.H. —

I totally agree. I don’t feel sorry for the predicament ex-cons often find themselves in regarding employment options, either. They made their bed, and now they have to lie in it.

And I certainly agree that it is by no means impossible to go straight after leaving prison.

I guess the point I was trying to make is simply that as far as a solution to the crime problem, I don’t think our prison system is particularly effective (and I work with the department of corrections, so I’m not just trying to put the blame on someone). It just seems to me that maybe it would be more effective if we spent a little more time and energy trying to figure out exactly what conditions make people more likely to turn to crime, and see if we can’t do something to change those conditions. Preventative measures rather than punitive, so to speak.

I’m not naive enough to think that this (or anything for that matter) will totally solve the problem — there are, unfortunately, some people who are just pure idiots & are going to cause problems regardless of the environment around them. But I do think that many of the people who end up in jail could have turned out differently under different circumstances. Maybe I should rephrase that, because they could have turned out differently under exactly the same circumstances if they had really wanted to instead of taking easy way out & turning to crime. Let’s just say many of them likely would have turned out differently under different circumstances.

By C.R.H.

June 17, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this

Brent- Believe it or not I agree with you. You obviously have much more insight into this than I. The biggest problem is once you have been the victim of crime your world is never the same. Really, most feel that the lives of criminals should turn out to be as miserable as possible. Prison is meant to be punishing, horrible and an experience no reasonable person would ever want to go through. I think that was one of the the intents of prisons (along with protecting society). I do not condone abusing prisoners, but I am also not happy with providing meals, medical & dental treatment, cable/satellite tv, recreational games, etc…at taxpayer expense. The perks are especially bothersome when the U.S. is full of hardworking, law-abiding folks who don’t have insurance, tv, recreational opportunities or the time to even enjoy being with their family! Teach inmates how to read (if necessary), provide books, education, job training & classes on how to deal with living in society, structure their time so there isn’t an opportunity to learn a new way to victimize society. Another point, provide time for physical excercise, but get rid of the weights…we don’t need bigger, stronger criminals. I also agree that there is a percentage of people who will never function in society…their situation should not include all of the things I have written about…those people should just get the basics for survival.

By James McCoy

June 17, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this

CRH I hope you continue to walk that straight and narrow line,because if you ever make a mistake and end up in the pokey,your words may come back to haunt you.

By C.R.H.

June 17, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this

I don’t know that I would consider committing a crime “a mistake”. I also don’t see how anything I said would be haunting to me, if I was so unfortunate as too accidently cause $250,000 worth of damage to some property. I am the product of a “rough” childhood, poverty/welfare, bad neighborhoods, single parent upbringing…all the things that could have made me a criminal. Don’t let the level of my formal education and my seemingly well adjusted nature fool you…I am very capable of dealing with people (and situations) that are, shall we say, somewhat shady. Which is probably one of the main reasons I have done so well at teaching students from similar backgrounds.

By Rena P

June 17, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this

$250,000.00 is not a joke. Where are these kid’s minds at. The bigger question is where the hell are these kid’s parents? And what the hell kind of values are they teaching them?

By Anonymous

June 20, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this

To C.R.H. Wow, you seem to be a very self righteous individual. I originally posted here just to point out that Nation is not a fair, or even a good, judge. I’m the mother of the son with the one (and only) marijuana charge at 17 (by the way, empty pipe with residue was what he had in his possession). And, let me clarify what the other boy was charged with: he was driving a vehicle with other passengers; he was under the influence of marijuana. So, for my son’s heinous crime, he has a record, he could not get in the navy when he tried to enlist (pre-Irag war), he has been rejected by many employers with good jobs because he has a drug record and is only able to get a job for $6 an hour in places that don’t do background checks. At 23, he works hard at his underpaying job and lives at home because he can’t afford anything else. I see how some young people would give up and go to a life of crime. By the way, my husband and I raised our son with values and by example. We believe punishment should fit the crime and unfortunately, Nation doesn’t dispense punishment suitable to the crime. I never said those young people should not be punished for their acts of vandalism, and especially if they have an existing record. I am just cautioning the applause for Judge Nation. Look at his whole record, first.

By James McCoy

June 20, 2005 09:58 AM | Link to this

Anonymous:If your son only has that one charge on his record,may I suggest that you get your son to invest in a good politically connected lawyer. I’ll bet you my last nickle there is a way to get this charge expunged from his record.

By Just so you know

June 20, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this

Some of the comments made indicated that these children were punished for being poor, from the wrong neighborhood, etc. Just for the record both are whits, and one in the grandson of a former state represenative.

By Anonymous

June 20, 2005 12:45 PM | Link to this

James McCoy: Yes, we are exploring that route. But, money is a problem. Isn’t that a commentary on our ‘justice’ system? If my son had an expensive lawyer to begin with instead of the public defender, we wouldn’t be in this situation. By the way, the other boy in my example had a pricy lawyer…