Get Schooled

By Dan

June 15, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this

I think we should push to have a swingers club as well. Using Rockdale county as an example, those poor children who through no fault of there own have a predisposition for sex with multiple partners at the same time, had to sneak around just to be themselves, not only that such clubs could have provided condoms and birth control as well as illustrated manuals so they wouldn’t have to use stuffed animals to describe their exploits.

By slim1975

June 15, 2005 11:12 AM | Link to this

Well written Dan.

By slim1975

June 15, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this

The article mentioned invading on a student’s First Amendment Rights….What?! Since when does a child need a support group for sexual preferences?!

By MattATL

June 15, 2005 11:30 AM | Link to this

Ha ha - aren’t you people a bunch of chuckle heads. Your sarcasm and wit only show the rest of us how backward your thinking really is. How does a club that has nothing to do with you affect you in any way? If anything, a club of this nature could do you and your family a great service. If you end up having a gay son or daughter, a gay club could end up saving his/her life because he/she obviously couldn’t come to you with questions with out fear of hell and damnation. Reading between the lines of what you wrote I see you would rather support teen suicide than have a support group for a gay teen.

By lynn

June 15, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this

I am surprised and amazed that this didn’t pass. Not only did it not pass, it didn’t pass pretty overwhelmingly.

I watched alot of the discussion on the web (yes, I am a total geek) These are not the results that I would have predicted.

I did not see the actual vote. I wonder if the concens about lawsuits (if a kid joined a club and forged his parents’ signature) and teachers concerns about paperwork swayed the board.

By Rena P

June 15, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this

This beautiful state of Georgia never ceases to amaze me. I couldn’t believe when this issue even came up. Like our school system doesn’t have “bigger fish to fry�. Kathy Cox always comes up with some winners! It’s amazing the woman even has her job.

I have never lived in a place with so many churches as they have here in Georgia, and I have never lived in a place where they show so much hate as they do here in Georgia. I think they’re confused! Church and God are about love & compassion. They’re under the impression that it’s about judging everyone that doesn’t live the lifestyle they live.

And Slim, a 16, 17 or 18 year old is not a child. They are young adults. They know how they feel and if they feel they need or want a support group for sexual preferences or what ever else may be on their minds then we should find a way to show compassion and support them. I give the young lady that started that club in White County a standing ovation. Her parents should be very proud of their daughter (and I’m sure they are).

By Alex

June 15, 2005 12:45 PM | Link to this

They need support groups for sexual preferences because of ignorant and bigoted people like slim1975.

By Scott

June 15, 2005 01:00 PM | Link to this

Dan chooses to frame GSA’s (Gay-Straight Alliances) and similar student clubs as “sex clubs;” in reality, GSA’s focus on peer support and volunteer service. GSA’s are neither providers of sexuality education nor forums for sexual activity; they do not (and, indeed, could not) teach students to be either gay or straight. As with all other student clubs, they are faculty-moderated — a far cry from the unsupervised environment in which some Rockdale County children were left to indulge in unhealthy, exploitative heterosexual activity.

It is crucial to recognize the difference between sexual identity and sexual practice; sexual identity describes one’s romantic and relational attractions (to men, women or both) while sexual practice (otherwise known as sexual preference) describes one’s chosen activities within the bedroom. Students (and adults) who are romantically attracted to others of their gender are often isolated and constantly beset by harmful misinformation from parents, peers and other societal entities; within the high school context, this isolation harms academic performance and can, as MattATL noted, increase the risk of suicidal thoughts and behavior among students.

GSA’s exist to acknowledge that 3-5% of humanity are attracted to others of their own gender and to provide a safe venue for those students and their straight peers to acknowledge their sexual identities and to work together to educate and serve their communities within a supportive context. GSA’s are not recruiting grounds; no one can change another person’s sexual identity. (Lord knows, the straight world tries!) Rather, GSA’s are welcoming venues within which students can volunteer their time without worrying about the gay-bashing that is otherwise constant in the high school world.

Lesbian, gay and bisexual students are far from the only beneficiaries of GSA’s; many GSA participants are straight and choose to take part in their clubs’ activities because of both their inherent value and the salubrious effects of working in an environment where prejudice is consciously rejected.

By FunkyGee

June 15, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

People that don’t care for the gay lifestyle aren’t bigoted or ignorant. They’re just normal - sorry you have a problem with normal people Alex-boy. Support groups - give me a break. Who’s gonna pay for this support? Don’t the homos hang out together anyway? Why do we have to make it a formal setting for them?

By wwww

June 15, 2005 01:20 PM | Link to this

What is the big deal? I still don’t understand what the problem is with a Gay Student Alliance. This is such a non issue. To the individuals against it, if your heterosexual son or daughter was friends with someone who was homosexual, would you forbid them to hang out? If so, why?

By Dan

June 15, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this

No Scott thats not what I meant however they are clubs based strictly on sexual orientation, are there any other clubs with such a memebership requriement, what if a kid got hurt playing football without the parents knowledge, or got into trouble on an FBLA trip. While my comment was sarcastic in nature it is because you can’t reason someone out of a position they weren’t reasoned into, but I will bite. There are a couple of main points first and foremost a parent has not only the right but the responsibilty to know where there child is and what they are doing at least until 18 and all rational caring parents would cetainly be grateful for a rule that supports that regardless of sexual orientation. Point two iss, if you are going to champion same gender orientation, the arguments don’t hold water unless you similarly champion, swinging, swapping, polygamy, incest (with families not with kids) all of which are more “natural” from an evolutionary point of view. Everyone should be treated fairly based on who they are, regardless, any club that bases it’s agenda on differences actually promotes separation rather than purges it.

By Dan

June 15, 2005 01:40 PM | Link to this

www there is no big deal about the Gay student alliance. the big deal is such an alliance is fighting a requirement that parents are informed of their kids activities under the delusion, that such a requirement is anti gay. This is paranoia at it’s finest.

By Rena P

June 15, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this

The big deal is that the teachers are the one’s that will have to keep track of all the paper work. Our teachers have enough to do, and don’t need another thing on their plate. Georgia schools have so many more problems than to have to deal with permission for students to join a club. They already send parents notifications. But if permission is required that opens a whole other can of worms.

Lets work on something more important, like catching our kid’s education up with the rest of the country so they can go out there and actually compete to get into a good college, and then move on to a good career.

Now this is just an educated guess - but I’ll bet FunkyGee is one of the knucklehead graduates from this wonderful state that ranks 50 in education. ;>)

By MattATL

June 15, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this

“When they came for the gypsies, I did not speak, for I am not a gypsy. When they came for the Jews, I did not speak, because I wasn’t a Jew. When they came for the Catholics, I did not speak, for I am not a Catholic. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak.”

Paranoia… maybe. Justifiable… absolutely!

By JW

June 15, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this

As I read the comments, I have to wonder how many people responding here have actually been to a meeting of one of the clubs. It seems there is a lot of ignorance (myself included) about what type of activities, community service, etc. the student members of these clubs are involved. It is my understanding that such clubs are not formed with an “agenda” based on differences, but to actually act in an opposite manner - hence the gay-straight component of working together for a common cause. Does anyone know what the club members do specifically? I think it is important to have such facts rather than passing judgment, making blanket condemnations or using harsh rhetoric to attack the club or its mission.

By slim1975

June 15, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this

Hello Matt, The right to have a gay club in a public school would effect me as a concerned parent. That type of organization does not belong in public schools. School clubs are typically based around academics and extracurricular activities. Not sex. If a student if having “personal problems” while in school, see the counselor. Otherwise, some issues need to be addressed outside of school.

Rena P, If you’re 16-18 years old, still staying at home w/your parents, depending on someone else to provide for your welfare. You’re an child. You’re definitely not an adult. Also, if it’s okay for highschoolers, who to say that it won’t trickle down to the middle schools. Isn’t that when most kids start experiementing w/sex anyway?

Alex, I’m far from ignorant honey. Blogging allows an outlet to express different opinions. Grow-up. A good debate never hurt anyone.

wwww, I wouldn’t prohibit my child from “hanging around” a gay student. I am going to teach my child what’s right and what’s wrong. And I’m going teach my child to be a leader and not follower. “Just because everybody else is trying it, doesn’t mean you have to.”

By FunkyGee

June 15, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this

Hey Matt. WTF was that? Some kind of gaylogic? I’ll stick with the majority of people who don’t want your lifestyle and perversion dangled in our faces. And yea Rena P - great guess - I’m a country bumpkin from the sticks who just found out about the internet yesterday. Keep deluding yourselves into thinking that everybody you lay this garbagetalk on will all of a sudden stop and think that you’re right and they’re wrong. Keep it to yourselves - or maybe you could get Michael Jackson to join your little club - how sweet.

By MattATL

June 15, 2005 03:08 PM | Link to this

FYI Slim1974 - While both in highschool and in college I was a member of the Gay-Straight Clubs offered by those schools. Sex was never brought up. Sex is not a topic for such forums. Just because when you think about homosexuals the first thing that comes to mind is sex, doesn’t mean that it’s the first thing on their minds. The Gay-Straight Clubs that I attended focused mainly on issues with in the community, providing emotional support to members that have been picked on, hurt, or kicked out of their family’s homes. Not everything revolves around sex. Also, I’m not under the delusion that the topic of sex won’t come up among individuals, but that could be said of any high school club. Teenagers are teenagers, regardless of sexual orientation. Just rest assured that during club meetings there are plenty of other topics to discuss. You advise that the gay students should see a counselor? What can a white middle-aged straight man or woman say to a teen that a moderated group of peers couldn’t say better? Notice I said “moderated”. That’s were the teacher sponsor comes in… to make sure all information is conveyed accurately, to dispel myths. There is more than one viewpoint regarding homosexuality and those viewpoints should have just as much right to be shared as yours. YOu’re right, there isn’t anything wrong with a healthy debate. A Gay-Straight Alliance would be a great place for such debates… cause it’s all in the name GAY-STRAIGHT Alliance. It’s not just a gay club… it’s for everyone wanting more information regarding homosexuals. They’re people too, ya know. They go through just as much crap, although I’d guess more, as every one else.

By MattATL

June 15, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this

FunkyGee - hey bud, relax! No one is dangling anything any where. No need to get upset. I don’t expect to change your mind anymore than I hope you expect me to change my mind. We’re just exchanging viewpoints.

By C.R.H.

June 15, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

S.A.D.D. - Now I wonder if they sit around doing drugs and drinking? We had a hacky sack club at my school and a photography club too. Lots of clubs that help students express their interests or hobbies, not every club is academic. The whole idea of parents signing for their kids to be in clubs was started for 1 reason & 1 reason only or else this would have been an issue a long time ago! I personally don’t see a problem with it if the club wants to institute their own rules for parent permission.

By johnnatlanta

June 15, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this

Folks, these clubs for young people offer them an opportunity to talk to each other in a safe environment. The members also share experiences and how they have handled difficult life experiences. One child’s/young person’s experience is often critically important to another facing a similar situation. Unfortunately young people have to resort to organizing in schools when their community and parents fail to provide them with the needed opportunity in a safe environment. If a child has what they need at home and in the community they will not seek to find it at school. Our churches fail them miserably in providing a forum for them to talk and grow. As an adult who worked with young people for 25 years I can truthfully tell you that young people will seek out the resources they need and tho they may not always be pleasing to the parents and others in the community they will find a way to work thru their problems. We as adult fail them miserably in listening, understanding and responding to their needs. We know what is best for them when in reality we are colored by our biases and life experiences. We need to listen to our hearts and not force upon them our opinions … only when we listen and try and see things from their perspective will they indeed reach out to us for help and show us the respect we feel we are due. They owe us nothing until we hear them with compassion in our hearts…and respond to their needs with solutions that truly help them without judgement and criticism.

By Rena P

June 15, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this

slim - You are exactly correct, and this should trickle down to middle school. But this really isn’t about sex.

One correction to you - If you are 16-17 years old staying at home being supported by your parents, you’re considered a minor. But if you are 18 years old, still staying at home and being supported by your parents you’re considered an adult. The 18-year old has to give the school permission to release any kind of information to their parents.

By Dan

June 15, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this

Actually I participated in many activities in school and can’t think of one that didn’t require a permission slip. I am pretty sure that to 99% of hetero people this subject had absolutely nothing to do with gays until someone complained

By MattATL

June 15, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this

Dan - how can you honestly think that? This whole issue didn’t even come up until the girl in White County tried creating that Gay Straight Club at her high school.

By whitecountygirl

June 15, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this

As a resident of White County and future teacher, I applaud Ms. Pacer for her courage. I am a straight woman and although I might not agree with the concept, I know it is time for our state to change its ways. I know how some of the people up here are about things like this and Ms. Pacer beautifully stood her ground against all the “good ol’ boys”. This state (and country!) is changing every day and we need to embrace the fact that the children and young adults today are a lot smarter and more independent than we think. This is 2005 for goodness sake! Yes, I know the Bible says it is wrong, but doesn’t the Bible also say that we should love one another and never place harsh judgement on a person???? I think it’s about time teens stop hiding behind the masks they are forced to wear by society and have the chance to express themselves in a way that they never thought possible. I applaud you Ms. Pacer. I can only hope that you have opened a door to a brand new future!!!

By UT96

June 15, 2005 05:11 PM | Link to this

Gay club in a public school? Another reason, added to the long list of reason(s), my child will never set foot in a public school. The majority of kids, administrators,teachers,and teachers unions are intellectually retarded and morally bankrupt.

By Dan

June 16, 2005 08:22 AM | Link to this

Matt I said most people, as with any group or culture there are bad apples. But the benefits of parent notification far outweigh the bad. Teenagers are teenagers and gay or otherwise they often feel they have to hide things from there parents and most of the time the parents are helpful. Personally I don’t think a HS should have a club where the determinent of entry is sexual orientation. If the club is indeed about acceptence etc (which is BS) but if it is then call it that and make overtly open to all, from band members, to book clubs, to obese kids, kids with glasses, acne, shy kids, immigrants, athletes who are pushed by their parents. The teenage years are tough on anyone, gays have it tougher in some ways but I am sure you know gays with strong personalities who thrive, just as their are star athletes who turn to drugs or crime.
And white county girl I find it ironic that you speak of the end of hiding behind masks as you advocate putting a mask on parents.

By Rob and Clay

June 16, 2005 08:48 AM | Link to this

We’re a proud gay married couple and happy two-daddy family with a nearly-three-year-old daughter whom we adopted at birth. We are 36 and 37 years old. We each had similar experiences growing up as teenagers in the 1980’s, realizing early on as kids that we were gay. Neither one of us had any “out” gay role models to look up to. We each experienced very difficult teenage years, terrified that our friends, parents/family, kids in school, or others would find out we were gay. Ironically, looking back, practically everyone knew we were both gay as children and as teenagers; we both got called f* by so many kids in our schools. The bullying we each faced was vicious. And we couldn’t even talk to our own parents and families about the constant hatred we faced, because then that would’ve “admitted” that we were gay. A Gay Straight Alliance would have made a world of difference in our lives as teenagers; we say that from the bottom of our hearts. To have that level of peer support, from other gay teenagers as well as straight teenagers, would have been incredibly beneficial to both of us! Neither one of us could have imagined during our teenage years what our happy lives would be like today. We fell in love in 1992 when we were 23 and 24 and then became husband and husband at our wedding the following year (and took the same last name legally). Joyfully, we were finally able to get legally married last year in Massachusetts after all of our years together. The biggest blessing in our lives, by far, is our daughter!!! We jointly adopted her in an independent adoption at birth. Our life together is totally centered on loving, raising and nurturing our child. One of us stays home full-time with our daughter, while the other one works full-time to support our family with income and health insurance for our family. We’re now in the process of adopting another child so our daughter can grow up with and love a sister or brother. We’re a very happy and close-knit family, and we love each other very much! Gay kids today need to know that their dreams can come true: a happy marriage and a happy family with wonderful, very much loved children. Heterosexuals do not hold a monopoly on family, marriage, children, believing in God, values, morality, happiness, or anything else in life. Gay Straight Alliances are crucial for gay teenagers (as well as straight teenagers who value their peers, regardless of sexual orientation or other “differences”). Statistically speaking, our daughter will most likely be heterosexual, as is approximately 90-95 percent of the population (we both came from heterosexual parents and families; a child’s orientation is not a result of their parents’ orientation); the point being, these alliance clubs are not only good for gay teens, but they are also beneficial for supportive straight teens, some of whom have gay parents like us. In the future, our daughter should have a club to feel comfortable in, as do Christians, Catholics, Jews, African Americans, Hispanics, students with disabilities, girls clubs, boys clubs, various nationalities, and other cultural/minority/special population student groups available. As a gay couple with a family, we not only care about the kids growing up today who are gay in unsupportive families and schools, but we also care about the kids who come from families like ours who may sometimes face hostility in certain school settings. Gay Straight Alliances not only provide acceptance to gay kids and enlightenment to straight kids, but they also provide wonderful support to kids with same-sex parents. Please value all loving families and children. Thank you.

By Irk

June 16, 2005 09:06 AM | Link to this

Someone said that clubs should be academic or extracurricular. I don’t understand that sentence, specifically the extracurricular part? Wouldn’t all clubs, regardless of their focus for extracurricular?

I really see 0 difference between the gsa clubs, any religious club, and community clubs. Fellowship of Christian Athletes, Arrive Alive (alcohol), Meeting at the Pole, etc. The clubs are based on similar interests, so I really have trouble accepting the views against the gsa clubs. There’s also video game clubs, language clubs, demographical clubs, geeky clubs, etc. Alot of different interests out there. If there’s enough of a group that wants to get together to form a club, why not? Who are they harming? Personally, I remember the religious clubs being the absolute worst as far as face shoving. I question why this club raises such a stink, when 99% of the arguments against it can just as well be applied to any religious club, organization, and cult. If my child were to hangout with the gsa club, I probably wouldn’t care. I’d wonder what common interest he had with them, just like I would if he was hanging out with the Arrive Alive group. Maybe I’d wonder because he had a sudden interest to volunteer, and I’d want to help him along in that. That’s just part of knowing your kid though.

By Irk

June 16, 2005 09:11 AM | Link to this

Rob and Clay, I commend you for posting on here. Unfortunately, I know you’re going to be attacked verbally. I also like to hear more stories of successful gay families, you know, to help counteract all the bad press, “morally corrupt”, and all that rubbish. Your post is going to read to the anti-gay folks like a slap in the face, their worst nightmare - a sucessful gay family.

By AcousticKeith

June 16, 2005 10:18 AM | Link to this

We have a problem in this country of dancing around the major issue. Kathy Cox’s proposal is simply a cowardly attempt to overcome one thing she doesn’t want- gay clubs in school. Everyone who is against gay clubs in schools isn’t saying what they really think- that they don’t like gays. I mean, that’s what it really comes down to. You can argue all day long that your religion says homosexuality is a sin, but that’s a moot point because state schools don’t recognize any one religion. What about everyone else that might be considered a “sinner” in your religion?-athiests, fornicators, pagans, muslims, etc. Just come out and say it! You don’t like gays and don’t want them in your lives, in your community, and in your schools.

I really feel sorry that homosexuals have become the scapegoat for religious fear and ignorance. There was one gay person at my highschool (at least openly gay) and I’m sure he would have probably had a more enjoyable high school experience if there was a gay tolerance support group to be a part of before or after school. We need more diversity in this state- it will lead the way to less ignorance and more tolerance among our citizens. I’m ashamed that we have someone like Cox heading our state’s school system- I wonder why Georgia is at the bottom of the list in education in this country?

By Dan

June 16, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this

Irk zero difference? First of all of course the religious clubs are not allowed, second the gsa is the only club based first and formost on sexual orientation. What other club is? Like I said in my first post why not a swingers club. Maybe an S&M club, surely those people would feel more comfortable talking about there feelings amongst others of the same ilk. Lastly this really shouldn’t be about gay straight or whatever it is about a parents responsibility to know what there kids are doing. This whole blog is so contradictory it is scary In the name of freedon acceptence and tolerence we are going to hide things from a childs parents. Doesn’t this implicitly accuse all parents of hating gays, isn’t this exactly contrary to what the those opposed to parental permission state their motivation is. Of course, they are all for tolerence, as long as it is their version of tolerence.

By TTB-POTS

June 16, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this

Dan - religious clubs are allowed at some schools - Fellowship of Christian Athletes is one example.

By FunkyGee

June 16, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this

Rob and Clay - how sweet. Gay club is one thing. Gay’s playing house to make themselves feel good at the expense of small children is sickening.

By Dan

June 16, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this

There may be a few religious clubs but as soon as someone complains it will be shut down with almost no hope for recourse. It is almost impossible to have a religious club in a public school these days due to misunderstanding of the first ammendment, I am not religious btw and don’t really care one way or another about a specific club gay religious or otherwise, I just like to observe and point out all of the contra logical, and contradictory arguments hollered by people on both sides of these arguments.

By normal

June 16, 2005 12:30 PM | Link to this

FunkyGee - you have beautifully illustrated why the GSA is needed. Thanks!

By Irk

June 16, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this

The club’s not about sexual orientation. It’s a social gathering and probably a more open social gathering than most “clubs”. It’s a place to belong for these kids, without prejudice. We could all only wish the religious zealotry clubs would be so kind.

Do I think there should be parental permission / notification? No. If you’ve been a kind, open, and honest parent, you’ll know your kids and their interests. We don’t need the schools further sticking their noses into our children’s personal lives. Leave some parenting to you know, the actual parents.

If your child joins the club and doesn’t tell you, then you’ve learning something much more important. Somewhere, along the way, your relationship went terribly wrong with your child. Your own child doesn’t trust you, their parent.

My niece has two gay male friends. I know these boys are missing positive gay role models in their lives. They live in a small backwoodsy community. Where would you suggest they seek out real role models? Churches? Yea, right. Community Groups? Maybe. If the parents will take them there, or they have an alternative way. Schools? Why not. If you oppose gay clubs in schools, then you should also oppose religious, demographical, etc. In that case, don’t allow specal interest clubs and stick to strictly academic and athletics (including no FCA). If you support the special interest clubs, then support them with open arms and be done with it. Stop citing religious and moral objections to limit their civil rights.

Do I think the non-academic clubs should exist? Yes. Parents have busy lives, too. To seek out opportunities in their communities for their kids can prove very time-consuming, if not impossible. Some of these kids really need some social group interaction. I think it’s part of the educational process that is limiited in many schools (sit down, be quiet, do your work).

Do I think we’re headed toward an S&M club? Of course not. A poor comparion, I know, but there are animal / environmental activist clubs that may go too far in their reaches. But seriously, what’s the point of having the faculty advisor if they’re not keeping an eye on such matters. I find it a little disturbing that when discussing gay clubs, the comparison is made to S&M. And, no, Funkygee. Different doesn’t equal abnormal. Different sometimes just means different.

Beyond all of this, it disgusts me that today’s generation of gay civil rights fighters will not likely reap the benefits of their actions. Hopefully they will make it better for their children’s children, and so on. Just like the black folk have improved things over the years. It takes a long time for these changes to pass, especially in the more religous areas. Afterall, the religious folk are sure they have the moral upper hand in all matters.

By Dan

June 16, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

Irk All clubs are a social gathering. That is pretty much what “club means.
GSA is a social gathering based on sexual orientation and the issues surrounding it. That is how it differs from the FBLA (future business leaders), chess club, reading group, band, football etc. All clubs inherently have a common link the GSA’s is sexual orientation. Any argument to the contrary pro or con is simply deceptive and contradictory. If you are so adament about standing up for rights etc call it what it is and defend it on it’s merits. The very act of spinning it belies it’s legitimacy. You are the one who is so sure you have the moral upper hand and you don’t even understand the basis of the club you are supporting. Not to mention if it were not for this one club out of hundreds how many people do you think would oppose parental notification. So who is imposing the moral values here.
Not many I suggest.

By SET

June 16, 2005 01:26 PM | Link to this

The problem with the government schools is that you have a disfunctional bureaucracy trying to appease whiners and not having education as the only priority.

All the political groups - and the football teams - run the risk of creating warring tribes in what’s supposed to be a place to teach children (worse - teenagers) reading, writing, and sciences. Things would function better if all the clubs and support groups were moved off campus to teen centers, libraries, city sports facilities and such places. Extra-curricular activities could be voluntary and independently managed. Including the gay clubs which are just as valid as the other political and social clubs including the white pride clubs and the NAACP. But not on the same campus as the academic programs for children.

Better performance academically could be had by uniforms, standards, and segregation/separation by ability and performance (not race or sex although there will be disparate effects) so that the business of learning would not be interrupted by anybody’s political or social agendas.

The current government schools are nuthouses.

By JD

June 16, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this

I have been a high school teacher for ten years and I’ve seen a whole lot during this time. I’m not going to discriminate against any of my students but I do not believe that clubs of this nature belong in the high schools. I’m miffed that so many people get upset because the “quote unquote” straight society will not accept them. If you are gay you have a right to be gay but society has just as much right not to accept it as rigth! I will never mistreat a gay student and I’ve had plenty but I will never agree with that lifestyle. It’s kind of funny because whenever you say you don’t agree with the lifestyle you are a bigot, or you’re insensitive and homophobic. In reality you are simply no on board with that lifestyle and you have a right not to be on board with that lifestyle. That is the main problem in society today, we accept entirely too much and people are afraid to challenge it because they are cast in a negative light if they do. I have no problem with gays but I do not want my kids around that lifestyle, because in my opinion its wrong the same way drug use is wrong. Some people smoke marijuana socially and they have great jobs and are functioning adults. I don’t agree with people smoking marijuana and therefore don’t want my kids around it the same as I don’t want them around gays and don’t tell me “But marijuana is illegal.” That was simply an example. A better example would be people that worship the devil lead a lifestyle I don’t agree with. They have every right and I respect that although I do not accept it as right but I have a right not to, the same right that a person has to be gay!

By Irk

June 16, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this

Dan, You really think I’m the morally pushy one? Funny. You’re right. Allowing a club in my kid’s school that focused on sexual orientation, that’s so horrible. Wow. So very horrible. We’ll have to step up the religion that’s shoved in our faces in every conceivable way every day of our lives. I mean shucks, we can’t even start our school day without recognizing God. But, by God, we’ll need more religion intervention to counteract these gay sinners. Their sinning lifestyle might spread. They might teach the non-gay how to be better sinners. You’re right. What will you do? What would Jesus do? Can you be any more assuming?

I totally understand the basis of the club. But, in my opinion, it’s not so strictly about sexual orientation. Blacks had their clubs when they were fighting for rights too. A club based on race, in those racially charged times, is that any less of an issue? And the white folk that joined the black folk in their fight? Remember, it’s the gay straight alliance. What do you think the racial clubs discuss? Definition of race? What do you think the gsa discuss? Definition of “sexual orientation”, mini-primer’s or how-to’s? Get over it. It’s not so strictly about sexual orientation as you say. They’re organizing and forming for reason othan than simply “sexual orientation”. We know sexual orientation, but do we know what resources and community activities are available for these kids? And, since they obviously want to form the group, there’s enough interest to form the dang group.

Why is the sexual orientation such a hangup for ya? Is your opposition due to it being sex related, orientation related, or just against the bible? If there’s enough interest to form a chili-pepper hating club, I frankly think they should go for it! They’re want-based clubs, and if there’s X amount of kids that are want a club, then great! I haven’t seen much in the media or the schools regarding S&M, Swinging, Polygamy, and whatever, maybe because there just isn’t enough of an interest at that age.

By FunkyGee

June 16, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

You’re right on JD. And lrk - homosexuality is abnormal - and different. Most heteros aren’t looking to bash or condemn gays physically. We just don’t want that lifestyle pushed on us so we are made to feel we should accept it. If anything, we get more obstinate. Parents need to know everything about their children. They should be notified of all their minor child’s actions. Let us be the parent and the school can be the school.

By Irk

June 16, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this

SET, Totally agree with moving stuff off-site. My biggest concern is accessibility though. Some communities build teen centers close to their highschools for just that reason. It does require a bit more planning to do so. I wish there were tons more teen centers in all cities. In addition to clubs, they can organize supevised party nights, movie nights, etc. Keeps the kids busy, out of boredom that leads to drugs, alcohol, sex, crimes, etc. In one city I lived, the teen center offered rides home from anywhere without your parents knowledge. I have to believe, though, that if your giving the same kid a ride home every Friday night drunk out of his/her mind that someone will mention something to the parents. Or, they’ll figure it out on their own.

Personally, I’d love to see only academic clubs and athletic clubs in the schools. In reality though, I think it will shut too many kids out (due to accessibility).

I haven’t seen this setup in GA anywhere, so I tend to favor the variety in the schools. As opposed to not having it at all.

By Dan

June 16, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this

Who is hung up on it Irk I have no hang ups at all simply logical arguments. I never advocated the creation of religious groups I simply pointed out the hypocrisy and the contradictory arguments that support gsa and not religious groups or vice versa. The questions was about parental consent for after school activities. how can you make a rational objection to that? Ok I understand some gay kid could have a parent that goes ballistic. but if 5% of the kids are gay, what % will have parents go ballistic and what % of those will hurt there kids. (and spare me the if one life is saved line, if that were reasonable speed limits would be 5mph) You speak of moral rightousness while you supporting a rule that at best will help somewhat less than a couple % of kids while at the same time essentially saying a parent has no right to impart their moral standards on their own children, while demanding their tax dollars support yours. Which is exactly the argument used by liberals to ban religious clubs in school.
Quite frankly if you want to talk logically regarding helping “disadvantaged people” of any ilk. I guarantee that churches and religious organizations are applicable to and have helped exponentially more people than the most well intentioned, effciently run gsa group ever could.

By Irk

June 16, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

“Gay’s playing house to make themselves feel good at the expense of small children is sickening.” — FunkyGee

Funky, For some reason, I don’t think you and JD have much in common belief-wise. JD is at least tolerant of other’s lifestyle choices.

By MattATL

June 16, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this

I agree, let parents be parents and schools be schools. Therefore, why is it the school’s responsibility to inform the parents? Parents like to complain about the schools, but isn’t it the parents responsibilty to get more involved in their kids lives? If a parent is that interested, get off their butts and research what clubs are offered at the school, inquire what clubs the students are members of, talk to teachers. But don’t sit back and complain that the parents have the right to know with out making an effort to find out first. Parenting is a full time job, it’s not easy. You wanted the kids, now do some work to actually take care of them and take an interest in their lives… don’t put it off onto the schools and expect them to babysit and provide you with information. The only permission slips I needed growing up was when I went on a field trip, whether to the local museum or to an away football game. But we never needed permission slips to join a school club unless that club decided to go on a field trip. Why require permission slips for that now? Because the parents have a right to know? Well, to those parents who wanna know, get off your lazy butts and go find out. That’s the biggest problem with parents today, they blame everyone else for problems with their kids instead of taking responsibility for it themselves. Ask the school administration, talk to the teachers, find out yourself what your kids are doing. Why is that such a hard concept? Why must we burden the schools with more bearucratic BS? Parents must be notified of their childrens actions? As I recall, it’s the parents responsibilty to stay informed regarding their kids. It seems to me that parents today want to outsource their responsibilties to the teachers and schools. Public schools are such an easy target, but at some point you gotta ask yourself why… it’s because you made it that way. I’m looking forward to getting my teaching license. I especially look forward to giving some of these parents a peice of my mind…

By FunkyGee

June 16, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this

lrk - Why do I have to be tolerant of your perversion bro? To be socially accepted by you and your sweeties? Na. The schools aren’t your proving grounds. You can do what you want in your own home. Just keep it there. The schools are a mess already. Do you really want to get them that involved in the development of your next generation?

By Irk

June 16, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this

Dan, I know you’re not advocating or pushing the religious side. But, it is pushed daily everywhere. I just dont’ see the formation of a club as ‘pushing the gay beliefs’ onto the anti-gay folk.

“I simply pointed out the hypocrisy and the contradictory arguments that support gsa and not religious groups or vice versa.” So, I take that to mean that you believe if the schools support religious groups, they should support gsa groups? (and vice versa) I agree with that, if so. My point was that I don’t understand how there can be so very many religious groups, and gsa’s are such a “problem”.

And, yea, I still find the parental consent bothersome. I don’t think it’ll solve anything either approved or not, so I really don’t have much opinion on it. Outside of the gsa topic, I believe the form can do more harm than good. How? It requires more effort to join the club. Teens can be slackers. It requires parental approval for a school sponsored club. Some kids will have interests their parents don’t care about, or may not even agree with it, or might have their own hangups about. If your parents are anti-church, and you want to join the church club, then why throw it up in their face? Why make it difficult? The kids need some freedom to express themselves (some, yes), and I’m not into overly regulating every little move they make. It would seem like joining a club could the least harmful method of expressing your interests? As an example, I used to participate in Arrive Alive. Pretty harmless, you’d think? My mom went nutso over it when I told her about something I needed to do after school hours. That can be more trouble than it’s worth for teens. Plus, I have seen clubs regarding behavior/social issues specifically, usually counselor recommended and formed. ADD, shyness, etc, that counselors might form “groups” over. I wonder if those type of groups would be affected by this also.

By Irk

June 16, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

FunkyGee, To be a tolerable human being.

By Dan

June 16, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this

Irk i can agree with much of your last post, though in my observations religion is being attacked everywhere. I was raised Catholic but don’t practice, but from my perspective the religious push is a reaction from the recent rash of quashing anything christian and I am not talking about agressive jesus pushers i am talking about taking down xmas trees so no one is offended. But that is off topic, I don’t think you need to monitor every action as a parent and the parent does not have to love the activity but they should at least try to care about it. It’s funny in so many other blogs on this site people decry the lack of parental participation and rightly so, a childs success in school is first and formost the responsibility of the parents. Then a topic like this comes up and due to a very small segment (and they do have some valid concerns) the general tone turns to the kids need freedom and parents who know to much can be detrimental. To me the logic doesn’t flow. Maybe bringing home a permission slip to join such a club would open a dialogue this could be greatly beneficial to the child parent relationship kids don’t know how to raise such a subject even outside the gay thing(you think a football player who wanted to quit to play violin wouldn’t have reservations about telling pop), or maybe the slip would get the kid disowned and if the parents are that closed minded maybe it is a good thing. the arguments seems to me a paranoid knee jerk reaction to something potentially helpful

By Letparentsteachthemorals

June 16, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this

You know did it ever occur to many of you posting that maybe you should let the parents teach their own children about hetero and homosexuality, alternate lifestyles? At which point the kids can make their own judgements on their views and information as they get older. I am sorry…I would not appreciate having my child be in a school that condones such behavior. Even if the club is to combine gays and straights and allow them to feel comfy around one another…if you want to start a club like that do it outside of school…You want to be hetero, fine…you want to be homo, fine…who cares…just don’t go around pitching a fit because you can’t have a club such as that in the school system. How about going back to a time where school was about learning reading, writing and arithmetic…You don’t need a club to start being accepted into society…you need to stop having parades in honor of you sleeping with the same sex…wearing rainbows on your cars and shirts…if you want to fit in with society then try being apart of it…I don’t go around getting together a parade because I am proud to be sleeping with my husband…It’s none of my business who sleeps with who behind closed doors but face it, it will never be totally accepted by society until someone is stupid enough to try and change to bible…and that will be a whole other outrage on the behalf of christians and relgions everywhere…

By MattATL

June 16, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this

A schools function isn’t just to teach reading, writing and math… Students also learn social skills and business skills. They learn how to interact and treat fellow students, which will follow them into adulthood. It’s in school that kids develop character and identity which will determine the kind of adult they will be.

A GSA club isn’t there to promote the gay lifestyle, it’s there to provide information for both gay and straight students.

If a straight student finds out his bestfriend is a homo, a GSA club would be one option to find out some facts about homosexuality. Also, he could go to his parents, his church, or any a myriad of other places. Each one offering a different viewpoint regarding the subject. Is it not fair for the student to receive contrasting viewpoints and then form his own opinion regarding homosexuality? Please, by all means, teach your kids your beliefs, pass on your morals. But don’t deny them another’s viewpoint. Don’t you want your kids to make up their own minds? To be adults with the ability to critically think through an idea is what we all want for the next generation, isn’t it? A GSA club is there for support and information purposes only.

Don’t you want Junior to be a leader and not a follower? Well, in order to lead, Junior will need as much info as possible to make up his own beliefs and ideas.

All growing up, I thought interracial dating was a sin and the most horrible thing… a product of my parents beliefs and teachings. Then after speaking to a few people who didn’t have such beliefs I was able to re-evaluate my stance and come to the conclusion that there is absolutely nothing wrong with interracial couples.

An informed decision is the best kind.

By Ryan

June 16, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this

Anyone know who one that good Braves game yesterday?

By MattATL

June 16, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this

Start being a part of society? We’re teachers that educate your kids, we’re firefighters that protect you, we’re doctors that make you feel better, we’re accountants that manage your money… How much more a part of society do we need to be?

Stop having parades and wearing rainbows? You obviously don’t understand the reasons we have those parades and wear those rainbows. For decades our brothers and sisters were pushed into the shadows and forced to live in secrecy. They lied to themselves and their spouses because society forced them into a mold that they didn’t fit into. Those parades and rainbows are there to show unity. They’re their to show we’re not alone in our fight for the same rights as everyone else. You see it as us flaunting our lifestyle, we see it as a celebration of who we are as people. Because, you know, we are people.

And as for starting clubs to be a part of society… as a woman, I’m sure you can appreciate all those clubs that were started during the Women’s Rights Movement… Isn’t it nice to be a first class citizen that is entitled to all the rights everyone else has. Wouldn’t it have been a shame if those crazy broads back in the olden days had just shut up and stayed in the kitchen like society expected them to? Stupid women, wanting to vote and go to work… what were they thinking?

By howboutthis1

June 16, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this

You know since it’s all fine and dandy to allow gays to make up the GAS club then by all means lets let some “redneck-hillbilly” kids make up a KKK club..after don’t we all deserve to know their point of view as well..or how about the Black panther party..let them come in and out together a club…I think they would want us all to know their side as well…hmmm…see how ridiculous this all is??? Just stick to the chess club, the poetry club, writer’s block, math team, etc… why change things when it will just cause unnecessary disturbance…to all gay and confused teens- start a club outside of school please..and to all the straight teens- if your friend confides in you that they are gay then talk to them..you don’t have to join a club to talk…

By Irk

June 16, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this

howboutthis: I think the goal is to move AWAY from narrowminded viewpoints, not toward them.

By MattATL

June 16, 2005 04:23 PM | Link to this

The difference between a KKK club or Black Panter club and a GSA club is intent.

A GSA club doesn’t spew hate and intolerance. I notice a pattern in all of your arguments - each of you always go straight to the most extreme measure. S&M clubs, KKK clubs, Incest clubs - you people are not well-adjusted members of society if that is the line of thinking you automatically go through. I’m more worried about my kids hanging out around you if those are the type of things that you think about.

By Irk

June 16, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this

Matt: I don’t see the assertiveness as so much of a “celebration” as just a get on with your life, your way, kind of thing. In the same vein, I’ve never understood why we celebrate black history and not asian or mexican history. I strongly favor the schools who turn black history month into multicultural month.

Regarding women, it’s interesting you mentioned that. In my experience, women have been some of the strongest supporters of gay rights. Is that just my experience, or generally true?

By Dan

June 16, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this

Matt Rainbows are fine, but you can’t dispute that the tone of the parades, generally make mardi gras look like a convention for celibacy and just validates the negative stereotypes and dilutes any message of “normalcy”

By Dan

June 16, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this

Is it not narrow minded to assume permission slips will always have a negative effect on the parent child relationship.

By MattATL

June 16, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this

Irk: It’s from my experience that women are just as diverse in their support or non-support of gay rights as men.

None the less, it still shocks me when I meet a woman that doesn’t support gay rights, especially since they too are a “minority” fighting for equality.

Personally, I support equal rights for everyone: people of color, white, straight, gay, man, woman - what’s good for one is good for all.

By Irk

June 16, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this

Matt: Regarding the interracial thing, I was raised with that belief too. I was brought up Southern Baptist, so I had many beliefs passed down to my through parents that I no longer share. I don’t bash them for their beliefs, but I choose my own. I don’t push mine on them either.
I’m vegetarian, and many many people have a negative view of vegetarians due to the more arrogant and outspoken individuals. I’m nothing like that, though. Nothing at all. But, I still suffer those opinions and comments. A few bad apples really can ruin the whole barrel. So, when they jump to the extreme (s&m, polygamy, kkk) I tend to recognize as those stereotypes that a few bad apples have contributed over the years.

By Irk

June 16, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this

Dan: I didn’t say that permission slips will always have a negative effect. I’m not sure anyone did, actually. But, I can’t deny the potential exists.

By MattATL

June 16, 2005 04:40 PM | Link to this

Dan: Admittedly, Pride Parades are a little sketchy at times and I personally don’t agree with the gentleman in leather chaps and nothing else baring all for the world to see… that is a civil matter that the police need to deal with. I don’t condone public indecency.

However, those people are the exception, not the rule. And who am I to squash their first amendment rights of expression? Every group has members that lean toward the extreme. I don’t hate all straight white men because a few of them beat up homos or wear white hoods in their own parades.

By Dan

June 16, 2005 04:45 PM | Link to this

No you didn’t Irk But in a nutshell that is what this entire post is about. Funny how these things go in circles.. (not a dig just an observation) there is an old quip that says if either the right wing or left wing controlled the country it would fly around in circles but here both the right and left wing are represented and we still fly in circles… curious ;o) good night

By SET

June 16, 2005 06:02 PM | Link to this

I’m trying to follow this blog - and my problem is that most of the writers seem to want the political debate about gays to be conducted inside the school compuses. There are others who want abortion, sex ed and contraceptives, and even democratic vs republician debates to go on in schools.

This is part of why the schools in GA are having the low score troubles. The purpose of sending these kids to school is to get them trained to the extent their IQ allows them to be trained - in reading, writing and sciences. Not political indocrination.

Anything else that is a distraction needs to go. Starting with the fashion shows, which is why uniforms (or uniform dress) are so useful.

If you continue to run your schools like Soviet Union indoctination camps your Whites will be working for the Asian Car Plants in Kentucky and the Blacks will be dead of AIDS. The world will pass you by.

The question is the role of these political clubs in the schools not whether gay politics is good or bad. Teenagers need to learn research skills before they are enrolled in the new Red Guard brigade - or recruited ny the Moonies or whoever.

My point is that if your schools were more like the way the Nuns ran their catholic schools in the 60’s - minus the religious dogma - your kids would be able to survive in this brave new world we are making. MANY are going to die prematurely or live in misery in the coming years. Education can make a difference in who goes up and who goes down in this new world.

Forget the political indocrination and make these kids keep their noses in their books, their hands (and everything else) to themselves and their mouths respectfully shut. They can party in college if they make it. Otherwise they have to go to work.

By justaquestion

June 17, 2005 08:29 AM | Link to this

I have been reading this blog this am and I have one question…how many of you have spent time in a school recently? I am really shocked at how some of you are simply bashing public schools. I am assuming you a)do not have children in school, b)homeschool, or c)send your children to private school. I’d like to respond in this way… if you don’t have children in school either because they are too young or too old, maybe you should spend some time volunteering before you make judgements as harsh as yours.There are so many positive things going on in schools. Unfortunatly, they don’t get the press that the bad stuff gets. If you are homeschooling your child, do you really think you are giving your child a fair view of the world? Once homeschooling is over, little Johnny is going to have to learn to live with different races, religions, beliefs etc. in the work place or college. Finally if you are sending your child to private school, do you think that none of this stuff exists in your academy just because you pay big bucks to send your child there?

It is a sad fact, but for some reason, society expects teachers and schools to teach values and morals. Don’t get me wrong, these do have a place in schools, but parents have the responsibility to teach their children the difference between right and wrong. Tolerance should also be part of that teaching. If parents were doing this, the idea of a club such as this would be a nonissue. Quit placing blame on the public schools and start parenting. We teachers are simply tired of trying to please parents, students, lawmakers, etc. Let us do our job. When that happens, you’ll see a rise in those test scores that you love to discuss.

By MattATL

June 17, 2005 09:16 AM | Link to this

Justaquestion: Here! Here! I whole heartedly agree.

By Dan

June 17, 2005 10:10 AM | Link to this

Just a question I do agree that one of the challenges of homeschooling is socialization. However there is a much greater opportunity to create a fair view of the world by homeschooling then subjecting them to the politically correct nonsense of public schools. Lets see a christian club is not allowed despite the fact that 70% of americans are christian yet a gay club is representing at most 5% yeah thats fair (and I am not gay bashing just stating logical facts) You need parental permission to take an aspirin but not to join an after school club. Teachers are not allowed to use red ink to correct for fear of hurtin a childs feelings, social promotion, effort trumps results, millions of dollars spent on computers that sit in a warehouse, so while there are certainly challenges to exposing children to a realistic picture of the world in home school and private. It is far more plausible than the intentionally manipulated false view they get in public school.

By Irk

June 17, 2005 10:26 AM | Link to this

justaquestion: “If you are homeschooling your child, do you really think you are giving your child a fair view of the world?” Homeschoolers don’t live in a vaccuum. I’m not a homeschooler. My child goes to public, and has had many whacko things happen at the school, or involving him, or just a really bizarre teacher. The homeschooler argument you made is rather common, when it seems like homeschoolers truly have the most flexibility to teach their kids as they see fit. They can go to Canada and explore some cities. They can go to cultural exhibits and fairs and such that public schooling students cannot unless a field trip is planned.

And, personally, I don’t expect the teacher to teach values and morals to my kid. But, I do expect the teacher to have good values and morals, and if the situation is right some of that just might be observed the kids.

My intention is not to bash the teachers, but I’m sure it’ll be received that way. When I hear teachers raising their voices very loudly at a class or a specific student in a elementary setting, I take issue. When, I see principals of discipline banging their fists on the school counter while a young kid cries, I take issue. There’s a reason children have trouble respecting teachers these days, and it’s not all the parent’s fault. But, possible some of their inactions, I’ll sure. Some teachers really should not be around children.

You cannot just trust teachers or any adult to know right from wrong, and follow through. Especially when children are involved. I say all of this, and we’ve had many good teachers.

I don’t understand so much of what it has to do with the topic. But, 90% of these posts are off-topic, so what the hay!

“If parents were doing this, the idea of a club such as this would be a nonissue.” Not all parents are equipped to help their gay child get along in the world. Some parents might struggle and not know where to turn due to stigma, etc. Some kids might want to bond together of the gay fight for rights, regardless of their nature. If they can bond together like PETA, why not civil rights? Your statement implies that parents alone can fill the role of multiple peers, gay role models, and counselor.

By Observer

June 17, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this

Justaquestion: Bravo! You’ve hit the nail on the head. The question that remains is will parents ever take the responsibility to teach their children these important values? The truth is that many parents are not fit to raise children. I’m sure you often witness this first hand.

I’m not a religious person by any means but, I do believe in loving thy neighbor. I often wonder what advancements we would make as a society if we could all learn tollerance and see beyond these trivial issues.

I wish the good things that occur within the school system were publicized more. I know there are many of us that cannot or would not do what you do so thank you. This blog needed to hear from you!

By Irk

June 17, 2005 10:40 AM | Link to this

Observer and justaquestion: Both of you, if you’re around children you have an opportunity to make a difference in that child’s life. Even the clerk at the grocery store can make a difference. Positive, Negative, or Neutral.

To say “it’s the parents” or “it’s the teachers” is rediculous. The parents aren’t the only ones around a child. What goes on at school carries into the home. What goes on at home carries into the school. To say “it’s the parents” is just as much of a copout as it is to say “it’s the teachers”.

The truth is, both parties need to stop forming sides and think about that kid, rather than who they can blame.

By Irk

June 17, 2005 10:59 AM | Link to this

Dan: Aspirin requires a doctor note, actually. A parent can go to the school and give their kid aspirin, and then leave. But, the kid cannot have aspirin themselves. Talk about ripping out potential for maturity. An 8 year old can easily read and dose himself, if needed. It’s aggravating, but it’s one of many hoops kids jump through.

The red ink and such, I haven’t experienced with mine. It wasn’t that way in WA either. Not sure what you’re referring to there.

By TTB-POTS

June 17, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this

Politcally, I’m against more regulations - we can’t legislate morality. All it’s going to do is cause more problems for the teachers (paperwork), more liability for the schools (what if little Johnny forges the parents signature?), and a false sense of security for the parents. Instead, as someone earlier mentioned, concerned parents will find out what’s going on in their children’s school, and good parents should be able to have a conversation about this stuff with their kids.

Now it was mentioned that the club had to have a sponsor. My question is, is that sponsor being paid? In middle school, club sponsors do not get paid, but I believe in high school they do - I just don’t know if that’s true for every club in every school. That’s where my problem would be. I don’t have a problem with that club’s (or any other club for that matter) existence - I do have a problem with taxpayer dollars paying for it - especially if the community as a whole is against it.

This is a tricky situation, because I believe the business of schools is education. I also know that some students wouldn’t go to school if it weren’t for the clubs, sports, and other activities that are offered. Ideally, I’d like to see all extracurricular costs incurred paid for by those that participate; however, that leaves poorer students with less opportunity, and I’m not sure that’s fair.

I don’t have an answer; those are just some thoughts…

By Observer

June 17, 2005 11:08 AM | Link to this

I don’t believe this is about placing blame on any party. Raising children in this ever-changing world is also not an easy task. However, I believe there are some things that a child should learn at home and some that should be taught at school. While teachers can assist with teaching values and tollerance, they should focus mostly on teaching academics and preparing children with skills to enter the workforce.

Until we live in a world where all parents can teach their children these important values, clubs and other similar organizations such as the GSA are necessary.

By TTB-POTS

June 17, 2005 11:47 AM | Link to this

I had thought about posting this to the “Grades and Punishment” blog, but that link doesn’t seem to be working - no matter, it applies to this one (and the Rockdale one, for that matter) as well…

I’m seeing a disturbing trend in a lot of the posts that have to do with “respect.” I see many comments about teachers (and other adults) having to “earn” a student’s respect. I see comments about “lost respect.” On the “Grades/Discipline” blog there was a comment about how a professor has no right to expect respect simply because he stands at the front of the class…

Excuse me??

When did we get so jaded in our attitudes and rude in our behavior as a society?

My personal idea is that it started with the baby boomer’s late 60s attitude of “don’t trust anyone over 30.” It was compounded by egregious breaches of trust like the Watergate scandal. We started opening up as a society about issues such as abuse (spousal, parent, sexual, etc). We learned about priests and teachers and other people in postions of trust breaking that trust. We saw police and other people in authority abusing their power. These stories were told and their vistims had a voice. This was not a bad thing, but then…

Everyone started to have a voice. Talk radio. Discussion boards. Blogs. People had opinions and had a place to voice them. The anonymity of some venues seems to have led to a tossing out of any kind of manners of public discourse. Meanwhile…

Children are getting more and more isolated in their own homes. Has anyone seen the number of TVs in a household now, compared with 20 years ago? Children have their own radios, TV (with their own cable hook-up), and often their own computers in their rooms, unsupervised. Entertainment targeted at them is often full of smart aleck kid-heros and stupid, stupid adults.

Now I face a classroom of students from whom I’M supposed to earn respect? Doesn’t that seem backwards to anyone?

I was born in 1965 (my parents were born in 1946) so that makes me either a tail-end, second-gen baby boomer or a gen-X-er depending on which books you read. I was brought up to respect adults in authority: doctors, police, priests, teachers - even my neighbors. They didn’t have to “earn my respect” - they simply got it because I was a child and they were adults.

Now, I know not all adults are worthy - they do bad things, as we’ve learned. However, those people are in the minority. I asked my children (14 & 18) why they should respect a teacher - “because they are the teacher” was the answer. (Remember - I was a parent before I was a teacher). We talked some more and my daughter said that, while you respect a teacher or other adult because of their position, it was possible for that person to “lose your respect.” I thought that was important, because it seems now, we’ve ALL lost respect for one another. Customers are rude to sales clerks; children are rude to parents; and yes, students are rude to teachers. Bloggers are rude to other bloggers, too, I’ve noticed.

I do respect that college professor for simply standing in front of the class - why? Because s/he has been somewhere and done something that I haven’t, and I want to learn from him/her.

By MattATL

June 17, 2005 12:08 PM | Link to this

TTB-POTS: Usually a club sponsor is there as a volunteer, taking time out of his or her life to be there for the students and their club. The only payment is that of their yearly teaching salary… nothing more.

By Irk

June 17, 2005 12:24 PM | Link to this

ttb: I don’t think my child gives off an ‘you’re not respect worthy yet’ attitude. Over the years, though, different experience have led him to put up walls sometimes as more of a cautious thing.

I’ve volunteered many hours in classrooms, and I’ve seen some of the horrible characters these teachers deal with. The problem is, the teachers have the same faults that some of the kids do. If a couple boys are acting up constantly, you might start to expect that behavior from boys. If a couple of girls are constantly chatting, you might expect that behavior from girls. The children aren’t treated like individuals when a need arises. If a boy is accused of running in the hallway, it must have happened. No adults were there, but it’s a boy, so it must have happened.

Children have the same faulty logic. If a teacher or two treats them wrong, or they observe the teachers treating other children wrong, it leaves a big impression. A kindergartner with eyes wide open and ready to start and love school isn’t that same kid 3 years later. Experiences for those past 3 years have discouraged and disappointed that kid. A kid that starts with good teachers in K and continues to thrive with good teachers in 1 through 3rd, will still see school with joy.

My child, I know, does have issues with not forgiving. We’re working on that. It causes him to lose respect for a teacher over time. It takes “incidents” though, for it to happen. If a teacher repeatedly has temper tantrums in front of the class, to the class, or to specific students, that’s going to leave an impression. Is it so bad that the student would lose some respect for that teacher (at least as a teacher)? Not to say that students would malign the teacher in any way, as everybody (even KIDS) deserves a basic level of respect. Unfortunately, adults know that that kids are easy targets, kids don’t know where to draw the lines all the time, and so kids sometimes lose even that most basic level of respect.

I can tell you teachers my child has really disliked (and not respected so much), and why. It was an opinion formed over time, with experience with the teacher. I can tell you teachers my child has really loved (and are well respected). If he were to do something bad, and both teachers were to fuss at him. Who’s words would impact him? It wouldn’t be the teacher that has loudly screamed, thrown stuff, or otherwise had angry outbursts. It would be the teacher who is in control of their emotions, treats the kids like they’re kids and not animals, treats the kids with respect even, and whose very nature creates a high degree of respect both ways.

By Dan

June 17, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this

irk not sure of the exact rules reegarding aspirin, I just know they have to jump through hoops, part of that zero tolerence nonsense. (and i know it is the pols and admins fault not the teachers) The red ink thing is an issue I have seen recently that some schools are telling the reachers not to grade in red ink because it is too harsh and it demeans the students. On some of the blogs here, some teacher said they use purple to grade in because it is more soothing. This kind of thing makes me crazy, that people teaching children don’t realize how innane that is.

By Irk

June 17, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this

Dan: In WA, there was a district that graded rather lazily. They graded work on effort as much as result. They believed that some kids results would improve with less criticism and more positive effort comments. The only subject I can see that worthwhile is Writing. Writing grades are never so clearly black or white, so it’s helpful to look at overall substance.

Now, when we were still in WA, this district hit the news because 7th graders were mispelling words that 3rd graders should know. And, they weren’t being marked as such. It went way overboard. They would get A’s on papers that were full of spelling errors. A parent noticed it, marked it in RED, notified the school, and then the media! They showed some of the work on the news. Sad.

I have been known to occasionally mark something that teachers missed on my kid’s papers. Especially for spelling, math, etc. Depending on the matter and the reason for the mistake, I may ask that he redo the work (regardless whether the teacher or I marked it). He’s very smart, but rushes through his work and doesn’t pay attention to instructions. A case where it’s clear that he rushed? He’ll probably be redoing. You know what I use to mark the papers? A red pencil. lol. His poor little ego. I look at everything that comes home.

This reminds me of a new year parent night. In 2nd grade, the math curriculum used didn’t stress basic math facts. So the teacher recommended to all parents they practice basic math facts at home. I thought it was a perfectly reasonable request. He even said he’d provide a few sets of flash cards, worksheets, websites, etc. Just to ask if you needed anything else. Seemed perfectly reasonable? I couldn’t believe how many parents in this affluent neighborhood balked! One parent asked how they, as parents, were supposed to get their child to do schoolwork! I was so put off by the whole experience. About 10 of the 25 parent sets raised their hands with these issues. Aren’t parents supposed to be the child’s first and primary teachers?

The aspirin thing isn’t zero tolerance. It was around before zero tolerance, even when I was in school. Zero Tolerance yanked it up when more and more kids were expelled and such because of the offenses. I always just thought it was a CYA thing. If the kid passes an asprin to another kid who has a fatal allergy, that’s a huge liability. But do I think a kid should be expelled or suspended for aspirin? Hell no. An accident that causes no harm shouldn’t lead to a removal of a kid’s right to education.

By TTB-POTS

June 17, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Matt - I didn’t know - I teach middle school - we’re not paid extra for anything even if we coach a team. I know that’s not the case in some high schools and in some counties, but I was pretty sure it wasn’t consistent.

I think it’s important for kids to have groups that they can feel a part of and share a common interest with - regardless of what that common interest is. I’m just not sure that that’s the role of an educational institution. But then again, in this day and age, lines are blurred for all institutions. Like I said, I don’t have an answer.

To Irk, I wasn’t talking specifics, I was talking more in general about society as a whole. It’s something that really bothers me, both in and out of my classroom.

I have a pretty good relationship with my students - lots of kids tell me I’m their favorite teacher - that’s nice to hear, for sure. Since I teach 8th grade, I end up in lots of discussions with them about right and wrong, society, etc. They have a lot to say, and I enjoy our conversations immensely. But, I notice them complaining about other teachers and they often say that they don’t respect teachers initially - the teachers have to earn their respect. That just seems so backwards to my ears. They talk disrepectfully about their parents, and about and to each other. Now, granted, I teach 8th graders…that’s an age when they are naturally beginning to question things, so some of that is normal, but some of it is society speaking through our youth.

Teachers do have faults - they’re human last time I checked (I kid with my students that, contrary to popular belief, the janitors do not unplug us and lock us in the storage cabinets overnight). Even so, they should act as professionally as possible - my rule of thumb (and it has worked very well for me) is to think, “If this were MY child’s classroom, would would I - as a parent - want to see or hear.”

You asked, “Is it so bad that a student would lose respect for a teacher?” No, it’s not bad at all (well, I guess it’s bad that a situation causing respect to be lost is bad, but that’s not what I meant). That implies that the respect was there initially.

I just look at how I was brought up, and how I brought my children up, and it seems so different from what many people’s opinions and ideas are today. I think some respect is implicit - granted by age, education, or position. Ideally it’s kept and built upon, but sometimes it’s lost. I also think respect can be earned by good deeds, going above and beyond, meeting a challenge, etc. Idealistic? Probably.

By TTB-POTS

June 17, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this

Irk, your post reminded me of a couple other things…

I grade in whatever color pen I happen to have handy…blue is my favorite color, so often I’m writing in blue marker. Doesn’t mean a thing except that I like blue markers.

I had a student tell me (in all seriousness) that I shouldn’t tell kids that their answer is wrong. He told me it would damage their self-esteem (I’m not making this up!). Now, granted, I often say positive things like “good guess” or “nice try” but this student really thought that even those expressions were bad.

I asked him, “Isn’t it worse to go around with the wrong information than it is to be told - nicely, I might add - that the answer wasn’t right?”

Another thought on the issue of teachers losing respect was your comment about the parents balking at doing work with their kids. I think we want to place blame (usually on the teachers or the parents) for the problems that face schools today. I think we as a society fail the schools because we give them an impossible mission - we want them to be world-class and set high expectations, yet we are not willing to accept the consequences and work that go along with a world class educational system. We want world class schools - but don’t give us too much homework. We want world class schools - but leave our summers alone. We want world class schools - but don’t grade in a red pen or even ask challenging questions.

Did schools lose our respect or did we take it away?

By Dan

June 17, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this

Nicely Said TTB In my opinion it is a manifestation of the feeling of entitlement that has permeated society. This is reinforced by pols telling people that education is a right, lawyers suing because a child is insulted when the teacher says they were wrong or someone draws a xmas tree, or the psycho-babble leading kids to believe nothing is there fault. The reality is public eduaction is an opportunity not a right and it is up to the individual to make the most of it, those that do succeed those that don’t blame someone else

By Irk

June 17, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this

Dan: I see education as much more of a right than you, apparently. I think when children are born they should expect some basics in their life, and yes, even entitled to some basics. And, I do consider an education a basic. Learning how to read, figure your paychecks, earn your keep, etc. Basics. It doesn’t mean I believe they’re entitled to abuse their teachers. I see education as a right and an opportunity I suppose. They have the ability to take their education and make it an opportunity. If they choose to throw it away, so be it. If you put broccoli on their dinner table, and they feed it to the dog, so be it.

I do have high expectations for my kid TTB. And, I realize not all parents do. I think we’re both wanting the same thing in that regard. I don’t want to be bucket-ized with all the slacker and stupid parents out there. And, you don’t want to be bucket-ized with all the whacko teachers.

But, every year, it’s the same thing. Teachers have a new set of students and parents to cope with. A parent can ask a seemingly superficial question, and a teacher can take offense. Parent is left wondering wtf. Happens all the time. Parents assume alot, teachers assume alot. Why do the parents need to earn respect from the teachers? I’ve never disrespected a teacher around my child. I really fought it one time, though.

In 3rd, my child had a very sarcastic teacher. She also talked really hateful to some kids. The smarter kids got the very hateful tone. I was in the classroom one day, and couldn’t believe her tone and absolute disgust. I almost lashed out. Kids were there, including mine. I don’t think it’s right to undermine a teacher’s authority in her classroom, in front of students. I didn’t know that over a dozen parents had heard the same thing I had, and that the teacher was being closely monitored by multiple folk for her behavior. Very hateful/sarcastic teacher. May be OK with older kids. Looking back on it, I know what I should have done that day, but at the time I was so shaken and shocked by her hate. I know I did those 4 kids a disservice by not doing something they could see. From their view, nobody did anything for them. Why should kids just accept it? Kids want to know who is looking out for them. It’s not always clear.

For me, a school asking for more from parents isn’t going to cause any lost respect. Most people I know are the same way. I guess I don’t hang out with the slacker crowd that wants the teachers to do it all. What causes me to lose respect is when something goes very wrong, and the teacher or administration doesn’t resolve it. Then again, like you said, teachers and principals are human and they can only make so many people happy. Put some things into perspective, learn to forgive, forget, move on and likely the respect will return.

By TTB-POTS

June 20, 2005 11:53 AM | Link to this

Hey, Irk…I don’t think parents need to earn respect from teachers, either. The respect should be there.

The teacher is responsible for caring for and educating the child. The parent is another adult who, ideally, is in partnership with the teacher. As another adult, with a common mission, I feel the respect should already be present.

This is what I was talking about, this common thought of “earning” respect from places where it should already present. I meant the comment to reflect something I see in society in general, and not necessarily just education in particular. The problem naturally bleeds into education because the schools are a microcosm and a reflection of the larger society. It seems like we (as a society) respect very little other than wealth or fame (how else do you explain Paris Hilton?). We’re just plain nasty to one another, and often!

I’m sorry to hear about your experience with your child’s 3rd grade teacher. I’ve been very lucky in that most of my children’s teachers have been very good - those less so at least have not been as bad as what you describe.

That to me sounds like an individual who shouldn’t be teaching. If I were in that situation, (at the very least)I would definitely have taken the opportunity to talk to my child about the choices the teacher had made, perhaps why the teacher made those choices, and how to continue working in that classroom even if the teacher were less than ideal. As hard as it would be, I would try to keep the conversations (I pluralize because I would definitely being talking about this more than once) as positive as possible - as much as it stunk, it was still a learning opportunity for child to learn how to deal with difficult people in his/her life. While I never had a teacher as bad as you describe, there were times when I had to talk with my kids about why a teacher was doing something in class. I may or may not have gone to administration with the problem (now, I would - when my child was in 3rd grade, I may not have felt comfortable doing so - I wasn’t a teacher then, just a mere parent, ha ha).