Get Schooled

By T. R.

June 14, 2005 09:00 AM | Link to this

Absolutely not! Grades should never be the opinion of a teacher, but rather a reflection of actual work done.

By C.R.H.

June 14, 2005 09:08 AM | Link to this

Behavior affects everything in your life. If I call my boss a blankity blank I am probably going to be suspended without pay and maybe terminated (I am a teacher.) In most other jobs you will be fired. Teachers aren’t fired without a hearing, some of you call it tenure. Having said all that, I don’t outright change students grades but I do remove them from class. And I am human, I am not lenient when I grade a disrespectful students work on things like essays. In other words, one student may get more credit on an assignment and the disrespectful problem student will miss points here and there. Believe me, I can justify deducting points for incomplete or wrong answers, and I can find problems with any assignment if I look hard enough!

By slim1975

June 14, 2005 09:26 AM | Link to this

Lowering grades for bad behavior is not the correct way to discipline. In the article, one of the parents stated that detention or staying after school would be suitable. I agree. The student that was sleeping in class made a perfect score on the assignment. So there’s not an a issue of whether the student comprehend the material but the lack of respect for sleeping during a lecture. Let the punishment fit the crime.

By Ernest

June 14, 2005 09:29 AM | Link to this

If each class had a ‘behavior/conduct’ category, I would not have a problem with grades for this. I am against ‘co-mingling’ behavior/conduct grades with academic grades. A grade in that subject matter should represent that students comprehension and ability to demonstrate their understanding of that topic in an objective manner (i.e. tests, essays, etc.) As a parent, I would be just as upset with a poor grade in behavior/conduct as I would with a poor grade in academics.

By Karen Armsby

June 14, 2005 09:45 AM | Link to this

The first question should be what is the meaning of ‘discipline?’ Merriam Webster defines it: Etymology: Middle English, from Old French & Latin; Old French, from Latin disciplina teaching, learning, from discipulus pupil 1 : PUNISHMENT 2 obsolete : INSTRUCTION 3 : a field of study 4 : training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character 5 a : control gained by enforcing obedience or order b : orderly or prescribed conduct or pattern of behavior c : SELF-CONTROL 6 : a rule or system of rules governing conduct or activity

Although the number one meaning these days is ‘punishment,’ it’s clear to see that discipline has its roots in teaching and learning, and five out of the six meanings involve the qualities one would expect a teacher to be able to enforce in his or her classroom.

Sadly, in our ‘no tolerance’ schools the administrations have taken the narrow view that discipline only means punishment. This view has robbed our teachers of the authority to develop a discipline of learning in their students, to enforce obedience through classroom rules, and to instill respect for the teacher, the subject and their classmates.

We live in a media centered world where videos, TV, DVD’s, I-pods, camera phones, text messaging, e-mailing and IMing rule. The students of today have grown up relating to and communicating through electronic gadgets that they can switch off at will. Therefore, many kids cannot relate to the real life human teacher standing in front of them, who is demanding their attention for fifty minutes at a time. The students think they can just switch off the teacher, and text message in class, listen to their music, or take a nap at will.

It’s shocking how school administrations and Boards have caved into the media culture, have robbed teachers of authority in their classrooms, and are catering to these clueless disrespectful students and sue-happy parents. In the case of Doc Neace it only took one student and his parent alsong with a spiteful principal to bring down an experienced and respected educator who had given twenty three years to Dacula High School. The kid, his dad, and the principal are probably pretty pleased with themselves, they made the disipline rules work for them. Shame on the Gwinnett County Schools and Board for your ridiculaous discipline policy. And shame on you for not listening to the hundreds of present and past students, to their parents, and to the teachers who have turned out in support of Doc Neace.

To answer your question, a grade is more than just an assessment of facts on a piece of paper, and discipline needs to be redefined. A grade is an assessment of a student’s attention, work product and interaction with classmates. Grading requires that the teacher have the authority to establish a classroom discipline as Doc Neace has had in place.

Why bother with a real teacher if all you grade is the work product? Why not hook the kids up to computers, let them run through programs, spit out papers, and graduate (or not) with no idea how to listen and learn, to converse, question, and debate face to face, and to have respect for themselves and others. Sadly, that’s the direction our schools are headed.

By Stacy

June 14, 2005 10:34 AM | Link to this

The details in this story alone do not accurately reflect the entire Neace situation. It was not a homework assignment; it was an assignment to be completed in class. There is no way to earn a perfect score on a class assignment if you sleep through said class. If grades are not to be used as discipline, then students who cheat must be given their unearned grade on the assignment and simply receive detention as punishment? Which is it, GCPS?

By abc

June 14, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this

Seems to me that if a student sleeps through a lecture, his score on assignments and tests will naturally be lower due to having missed out on content, so why bother further reducing the grade?

I can see why it’s important for students to be still and not create distractions and disturbances, out of respect for the class as a whole including the teacher. I do not, however, see any reason to expect students to kowtow to teachers based only on the teacher’s role in the class. If they sleep, they miss out, they lose; but the aspect of that action being intolerably disrepectful to the teacher is a pointlessly childish notion.

By Stacey

June 14, 2005 12:07 PM | Link to this

Not use grades as punishment? Ridiculous! In every high school and college class I have taken, there was a 10 - 15% “class participation” grade. Everyone knew it could be affected by behavior.

When parents hand their children over to the school systems for the majority of the workweek, we expect that they be taught to be productive members of society - not simply through knowledge, but through socialization, nutrition, physical fitness, and personal development. This is why schools employ an army: nutritionists, psychologists, social workers, paraprofessionals, media specialists, kinesiologists, and educators. Let’s admit it: part of what we expect schools to teach is how to function in society. This includes behavior.

Behavior is something that cannot be blamed on the school system. We can fault them for failing to recognize learning disabilities, for illiteracy, for education-related failures. But behavior is a parental responsibility more so than an educators. A grade lowered for behavioral reasons is a reflection on the parent. No parent wants to see their child suffer later in life because of their high school GPA. But we have to accept that it isn’t the GPA holding them back. It’s their inability - or refusal - to function within the structure. That structure is not going to change once a student graduates from high school. It doesn’t disappear. It becomes less forgiving.

I think, based on personal experience (and I was not always a well-behaved child), the expectations we place upon our school systems, and our responsibility to teach accountability to our children, it is appropriate to lower a child’s grade based on their behavior. I just think it should still be documented and quantifiable to some degree.

By Mr. W

June 14, 2005 12:24 PM | Link to this

This whole issue is hogwash and bolonga. You tell your child to do something and he or she does it, but they do it “by the seat of their pants” or luckily because they missed the instructions. Its like the kid in class who was sleep or otherwise not paying attention and just happened to guess the right answer. Just because the answer was right with a wrong or incomplete process to the answer is still wrong! Lazy and unresponsible parents always looking for shortcuts breed children who are already there and end up worse. Trust me!

By PAP

June 14, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this

I am a student at Dacula High and I think Mr.Neace did the right thing. People keep putting their take of what happened into the story. Let me set the record straight. This assignment was an in class assignment, not a lecture (although he slept through the lecture also). Mr. Neace reduced the in-class assignment grade due to the sleeping. How can you receive full points on an assignment to be completed in class when you sleep through the entire class??? Many other students worked hard to complete the assignment, the sleeper copied his answers down and went back to sleep. As a student, I take offense to those in this community that are against Mr. Neace doing the right thing. There are so few GOOD teachers in this school. Don’t punish one of the good ones….

This is what is wrong with opinion Blogs. Everyone has an opinion, but no-one has the entire story, just what was heard on some News station. Let me tell you, most of the news agencies I heard after this incident were making up their own facts. I heard stories ranging from Mr. Neace lowered the students entire semester grade, to he lowered his grade on a test that the student aced. Neither is true. Mr Neace lowered the in class assignment grade only. The in class grade or participation grade was explained to every student at the beginning of the first class.If you sleep in class, how can you participate?????? No wonder students that were once thinking of becoming teachers are changing their minds at a remarkable rate. Our school officials treat some teachers with disrespect, with no regard to their teaching ability.

By riiiiiiight...

June 14, 2005 12:37 PM | Link to this

HELL NO

By Margaret

June 14, 2005 12:45 PM | Link to this

You may say that “Behavior is something that cannot be blamed on the school system” however that behavior is definitely influenced by the teacher and the classroom. If the teacher cannot control the class or cannot maintain attention of the students - and we all know of teachers who fall into that category - then the use of the grade to communicate the teachers lack of abliity is wrong. There are too many teachers who have gotten into the system and are sheltered despite their poor skills to allow any validity to the presumption of a behavior aspect to any grade. A grade should be based on FACT and not used to blame a student for reacting to a bad situation. There should be consistent and frequent monitoring of teachers in the classroom and reviews of their grading -I think there would be a surprise result in many cases. Don’t tell me how much some of the parents like particular teachers - there will always be parents who unilaterally support a teacher - or tell me there are students who think highly of particular teachers - teachers are popular with students for other reasons besides teaching - tell me how a teacher makes a subject come alive and treats each student with respect so that they can participate safely and want to learn.

By PAP

June 14, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this

To Margaret: I take offense to your posting… I am a straight A student that looks to a teacher to be more than a “buddy” and more that just a lecturer. Mr Nease was a well rounded teacher that made otherwise boring classes exciting. He made students think on their own, outside of the box, and discouraged agreeing with something just because it was a popular decision. A teachers’ hands are tied in Georgia classrooms. There is nothing that can be offered as punishment. This grade was an earned grade, not something that could just be arbitrarily changed. It was a particpation grade. Do you call sleeping in class participation?? Why don’t you ask the 100 or so parents and teachers that came to Mr. Neace’s defense why they were supporting him. I guarantee they would say that “he taught me something”, not ” he was my buddy”.

By James McCoy

June 14, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

Amen to Karen Armsby response,just when are we going to allow teachers to teach? Control of the classroom is the first thing I would guess that a teacher trys to instill in their students in the beginning. If parents were not so quick to defend little Johnny’s behavior and support the teacher maybe we would not be 49th SAT scores and education skills.

By brumfima

June 14, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this

C R H needs to have her license removed, and burnt. You should be mature and responsible enough to put your personal feelings aside and teach your students. Behavior problems are not always what they may seem. It could be unfound medical illness, a learning disability, depression, abuse at home and many others. That is why teachers should be docked according to how well the students pass….

By Christy

June 14, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this

Karen, What a great response! All I have to say is that these kids and parents are in for a RUDE awakening when they send their kids to college or the working world. Last time I checked most students in Georgia high schools are either on the “tech” track or the “college prep” track. For those on the tech track, I don’t think your employers are going to give two hoots about how well you perform at home once you’ve gone home for the day. If you sleep on the job, or slack off, or act uninterested, you WILL be fired. As for those on the college prep track, last time I checked not a single one of my college professors would have thought twice about reducing my grade for bad behavior, absenteeism, or sleeping in class. These are the same kids that expect their parents to bail them out of every situation for the rest of their lives. I’m pursuing my masters in education, and if I am responsible for your child for 8 hours a day, then I should have some authority to make them behave. The argument that the kid was reacting to a “boring” teacher is hogwash.

By Penguinmom

June 14, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this

I would rather have a teacher be able to lower a grade openly for lack of class participation than have them lower it surreptiously by grading harder on bad behavior students than on good behavior students. At least the first option has the possibility of being even-handedly used. It’s no wonder teachers can’t teach our kids if they have no way of disciplining them in the classroom.

By Germanman

June 14, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this

I am originally from Germany and think that this issue can be solved one way. An education in Germany is not a RIGHT. Students take education seriously in Germany because if they mess up, they know they will be sheep herders for te rest of their life. I have an 8 year old in school. He is two years ahead of his classmates because his parents care about his education and his future. If he gets in trouble at school, he gets in trouble at home. I hear teacher talking at last meeting to my wife that the teacher spends over half her time disciplining the children and half of the other half of her time explaining to school officials and parents why she disciplined little Johnny. I beleive in the three strikes and out rule. A teacher gives a student three chances to behave, after the student is removed from the class. I heawr parents stating give the teachers the ability to teach. If it were your child that was in trouble, would you blame the teacher, or put blame where it is due. In Germany, capital punishment is still allowed. I guess that is one of the reasons German schools are noted as some of the best in the world…

By C.R.H.

June 14, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

brumfirma…get a clue, I DO teach children. Stop making excuses for bad behavior. I was diagnosed as ADHD, and miraculously, I am able to sit in LOOOONNNNGGG BORING meetings for hours on end without acting like a turd. I also was able to do this when I was a student…wonder why? Because my mom would have knocked me into next week had I acted like an idiot in class and she got a phone call about it! As far as docking teachers based on the student’s performance…I agree, but let ME pick which students come into my classroom and which ones stay! If a business can pick who they hire to build their profits, WHY CAN’T I?

By abc

June 14, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this

If you ‘knock your child into next week’ and they tell the police they’re afraid to go home because they fear physical repercussions, you can be arrested. Truth. Seen it firsthand.

More parent bashing, please, there’s not enough of that.

By C.R.H.

June 14, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

abc…my response was far from parent bashing!I have nothing but respect for my parents. Remember, this was also back in the day before it was against the law to spank your kids!

By James McCoy

June 14, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this

Personally I couldn’t be a teacher any public school nowdays. I grew up in a era when it was ok for a teacher to” knock you into next week”. And I find myself to be better for that type of discipline. I also had a stable neighborhood and family to go home too everyday including extended family members. Maybe these are some of the factors missing for alot of our school children in 2005.

By abc

June 14, 2005 02:38 PM | Link to this

I also received the paddle when I was a schoolboy. Corporal punishment was a very effective deterrent, especially when administered in front of the class. A bit primitive perhaps, but alas, it a different day and age.

By TT

June 14, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this

In reading the fine details, it seems that the student should not only have had his grade docked, he should also have been subject to disciplinary action for copying off someone else’s work. That football player has been catered to his entire academic career. It’s just unfortunate that a talented teacher like Mr. Neace had to take the fall for a spoiled brat.

At my alma mater, that student would have faced a Discipline Board consisting of his peers and his teachers. That body would have had the option to recommend expulsion. It’s time we get tough on these kids, else they learn that society will always change the rules for them.

By C.R.H.

June 14, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this

abc, YOU got the paddle? Teachers are discouraged from even telling a kid they got an answer wrong in front of other students (it is a detriment to their self-esteem!). We are also told that if a student is behaving in a way that causes a classroom disruption we are not to reprimand publicly. We are to quietly discuss this behavior in the hallway or after class, away from their peers so as not to inflict a social stigma upon them. I think if a kid had to be made an example of, it may discourage other poor behavior. But, nowadays the parent of that student would sue the BLANK out of someone who CAUSED this HARM to THEIR child. Great lesson for the kid…waste taxpayer time, money, create an environment where other students are denied an opportunity to an education and if you are called out as an example of what not to do, you can sue.

By James McCoy

June 14, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this

Sounds like if Perry Mason was alive he would have a thriving business in 2005. I have been out of high school for 33 years and can’t imaging talking back to a teacher. But then again I’m “old school”.

By abc

June 14, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

Sure, I got the paddle, large nasty ones with holes drilled in them to lessen the effects of air compressed by the stroke, thus cushioning the blow. Yes, it hurt! Once for a schoolyard fight in 6th grade, once for talking to a pretty girl during class in 8th. It was a normal part of school back then. Parents would never be allowed to administer such punishment these days, much less teachers and administrators.

By DB

June 14, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this

PAP: Good for you for sticking up for Neace! I’m glad he took a stand for all teachers and students!

Margaret: You need to spend a few years teaching and get a taste of kids these days! You have no idea! It doesn’t matter how engaging of a teacher you are, many kids could care less, and they shouldn’t even be in the classroom because they ruin it for the kids that do care and are trying to pay attention. And many good teachers don’t become well-accepted because they’re “buddies” with the students. Good kids like PAP and all the others most likely respect Neace because he had expectations for them, which promoted thinking, learning, and responsibility.

By DB

June 14, 2005 03:18 PM | Link to this

Germanman: Exactly!!!!! That’s what I’ve been trying to promote for years!!!! And Americans wonder why kids from other countries are so much more educated than we are!!!! It’s only a matter of time before the U.S. starts lagging behind the world in all categories, that is unless we change our education system to get rid of the whiners.

By abc

June 14, 2005 03:31 PM | Link to this

I believe that the US already lags behind the rest of the world in most categories of education, ranking anywhere from 10th or 11th to 23rd or 24th depending on category.

By DB

June 14, 2005 04:03 PM | Link to this

abc: Definitely true, but I meant things like economy, technology, and world influence/respect. I think those things are on the decline unless something is done.

By Teacher, Too

June 14, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this

There are times when it is appropriate to use grades as discipline. What about late work- class work, homework, projects, essays? If the rest of the class is able to complete the assignment and turn it in on time, should the student who turns in the assignment two or three days late receive the same grade? How is that fair to the other students? I state my late work policy in my syllabus at the beginning of the year, and subsequently every new nine weeks. Yet, I have routinely been told by my administrators that I am to take work three, four, even five weeks late. Why is that acceptable?

And what about cheating on tests or plagarizing on essays? Should grades not be lowered for those offenses, or do we give the students another chance with no grade deduction?

With all the attention to grades, I am now going to change my policy to no late work, period. I don’t want to get in trouble for grade punishment.

Should grades be affected all the time? Certainly not- but there are times when lowering a grade is absolutely justified.

By C.R.H.

June 14, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this

hey teacher too…try turning in your grades 5 weeks late and watch what happens. Or better yet,return a parent phone call 3 weeks after they 1st called, see how well that goes over. I once had a student turn in an assignment in April (right after spring break) that was due in September. They got NO credit! Anyone have a problem with that?

By Linda

June 14, 2005 05:05 PM | Link to this

Teachers should be allowed to RUN their classrooms. Professors are allowed to RUN their classes in college, bosses are allowed to RUN the workplace. These are the areas we are preparing our children for.

Children, including teenagers have to be held accountable for their behavior/s.

There are key facts left out of this BLOG. Some key facts are as follows: - A syllabus was sent home and signed by both the parent and student agreeing to Mr. Neace’s rules.

• Before the syllabus can be given to students they are reviewed by the administrator (Mr. Nutt).

• Forms of discipline are carried out daily in the classrooms. Eg. Failure to turn in homework results in a zero grade. Failure to participate results in a lower grade as well.

• The kid (Wesley) cheated by copying the answers from another person. (Observed by classmates.)

• Cheating is discussed in the handbook. (previous BLOG) The handbook does not state what should happen with a student who is “sleeping” during class.

• The focus was changed from a student sleeping and then cheating to cover-up… to a teacher who should not lower the classwork grade for a slacker.

• ALL other students for years lived by this rule. An exception is made for a student athlete.

By Lucinda Ballard

June 14, 2005 05:28 PM | Link to this

Beautifully stated Karen Armsby!!!

Thanks PAP for laying out the facts. I work for the media and you are so correct in that facts get “skewed” all the time. The final product that the readers/viewers/listeners get often contains so much spin and embellishment that they’re practically worthless.

In regards to brumfima’s comment - “That is why teachers should be docked according to how well the students pass…” Whatever! And you’re probably one of the lazy-assed parents who do nothing to develop your kids, but want the school system to work a miracle on them. I’ll agree that teachers need to be accountable, but the day they start docking teachers for students whose shiftless parents won’t even require them to comply with the teachers’ guidelines is the day all of Georgia’s teachers ought to just walk out.

If your statement is true: “C R H needs to have her license removed, and burnt,” then I offer a motion to have the parents of every failing child fired from their jobs so they can go sit at home and take care of priority ONE!! A bit ludicrous? I’ll say! But so is your suggestion!

Where the hell have you been? Don’t you go thinkin’ for one minute that CRH’s methods of grading is anything new. Happens all the time. And justly so. I sure as hell wouldn’t cut any grading slack for bo bubba’s kid who sleeps and/or disrupts my class if I were the teacher. The well-behaved, attentive kids that get the leniency in grading are probably getting more out of the class anyway. There has to be some balance. I’m all for a 10-25% participation grade that factors into the overall grade. Under a sensible rule like that, I believe Neace would be COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED in lowering

It’s no friggin’ wonder Georgia is on the bottom rung of the education ladder! Spoiled, unaccountable parents are breeding spoiled, unaccountable children who are sent out into the real world only to get slapped in the face with reality. They very quickly learn that misbehavior on the job, in college, in public or wherever will cost them something - and it’ll be a helluva lot more than merely ‘points’ on the grading books.

Kudos to Mr. Neace. You hang in there. There are probably many states who’d love to have a dedicated teacher who’s out to produce well-rounded students. If this is how GCPS/Georgia treats teachers like yourself, you are obviously too quality a teacher for the system here!!!!

By brumfima

June 15, 2005 08:24 AM | Link to this

C. R. H, you may have some serious emotional issues needed. Sounds like other issues too, with wanted to pick your students. Every child has a right to education. Instead of being discriminate on who you teach, maybe you need to learn social skills to deal with all types of students. If my children weren’t in college and last year of high school, I will most defintely make sure none of their teachers had the initials C R H. You need to meditate why you got a teaching license. Maybe you will be one of those ones removed or fired. You really need some social skills training. You sound as though you have some serious issues…Maybe you need counseling for being slapped upside the head by your parents….

By brumfima

June 15, 2005 08:29 AM | Link to this

Lucinda Ballard, I have 3 children 2 who graduated a year earlier based upon academics and my encouragement. One who graduates this year 2006. I am no where near lazy honey. A proud black parent with 2 degrees working on a masters in nursing, and raise all 3 by myself. I do not need no sorry teachers to motivate my children. Motivation was instilled in them. I have encourage other children folks like you have belittle. I was not one to take mess from rude downgrading racial teachers. Looking forward for you to be out of the system when my grandchildren start. Chill honey it is easy to say things on blinded light, but will meet you face to face in any debate or educational conversation…

By Karen Armsby

June 15, 2005 08:37 AM | Link to this

Thanks James McCoy, Christy, and Lucinda for your compliments. Doc Neace’s appeal of his termination is being sent up to the State Board of Education and I would like to encourage all of Doc’s supporters to write letters to the State Board members. There is a link on this page to the State Dept. of Education and then a link to the Board on that webpage. We need to let them know what has been going on at Dacula High School, and that the GCPS administration is completely blind to the problems at Dacula High School.

By Karen Armsby

June 15, 2005 08:51 AM | Link to this

brumfina, If you reread your first post you may see that you made assumptions about CRH’s post and you attacked CRH personally with your comments. Lucinda responded to your vehemence.

I agree with CRH that students who work hard, pay attention in class, hand in their work on time, and have a cooperative attitude do get the benefit of the doubt when the teacher is grading their papers. I mean that if the teacher is on the fence between an A and B the better student will get the A and the lazy irresponsible student will get the B.

There is no reason to play a race card here. I am glad you motivated your kids, but I hope they have a calmer temper than you. This is an opinion forum where we need to discuss the issues, not attack each other.

By CD

June 15, 2005 09:02 AM | Link to this

brumfima - Where did you get your degrees? I want to put it on my list of where never to go. Your last post was on par with a 6th grade composition. I have never seen someone claim to be so educated in such an ignorant way. Here’s a secret… we don’t believe you.

By jack

June 15, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this

This comment has nothing to do with Mr. Neace or any other teacher. The problem with discipline in schools is that there is no discipline. Detention or loss of classroom priviledges is no deterrent to bad behavior, quite a few students look on detention as a badge of honor for refusing to “take anything from that stupid teacher.” Back in the dark ages of the 1950’s when I went to school grades were one form of discipline and a very effective form. Students knew that if they acted up or created problems for the others in class that their grade would suffer. If the student was disrespectful, belligerent, or destructive they were paddled and if a couple of paddlings weren’t effective they were expelled from school, the school system didn’t even waste time, space, and faculty with detention. If the student was caught cheating on classwork or tests he/she received a grade of “0”, there were no make up’s unless the student was out sick or had some other acceptable reason for not attending school. If the student flunked the class he/she repeated the grade. Discipline problems were low, violence was very limited, and teachers weren’t subjected to abuse by students. Grades should definitely be used as a form of discipline since all other effective means of controlling students have been done away with. Today’s politically correct “self esteem, don’t hurt anyone’s feelings, social promotion, garbage, has produced a couple of generations of no self discipline, little or no respect for authority, self righteous students and parents. This opinion doesn’t include all students, or even the majority. All it takes in the classroom is one bad student to ruin the educational opportunities for the entire class, and don’t throw out the tired old saw of “reason with the problem student.” The true problem student can’t be reasoned with, after all they are right, the teacher is stupid for even asking them to behave and do a bunch of boring school work, and besides if the student isn’t allowed to do as he/she pleases they will just get mommy and daddy to straighten out the teacher and the entire school system. In other words, if little Johnny and Susie can’t behave and they create problems and distractions in the classroom their grades should suffer.

By Karen Armsby

June 15, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this

Jack, I agree with you that teachers no longer have authority over their classes. And when they refer students to administrators for discipline problems they have to take teaching time to fill out paperwork which results in a frown from administrators who chastise them for not controlling their students. A losing situation all the way around.

By Lindsey

June 15, 2005 10:48 AM | Link to this

When I was in high school (which was less than three years ago), I hated the classes that I took with the disrespectful and misbehaving kids. When I wanted to listen to the teacher, they would laugh and throw things across the classroom. Luckily, my high school hadn’t gotten as diluted as to bow down to these students and their parents. But my grades still suffered in these classes. When I took classes with the advanced placement bunch of students, where everyone respected the teacher regardless of how they felt about said teacher, I made very high A’s. I think that more responsibility and challenge should be placed on the students. If you are treated as an adult, you act as an adult and if you are treated as a child, you act as a child, in my experience.

Part of the problem is our irresponsible culture. Most people think, “If I do something wrong, it is your fault,” and they don’t take responsibility for their actions which is why so many people sue for stupid crap now a days. If parents acted with responsibility, then their children might too. That was generally the rule with the children and parents I saw in middle school and high school.

As for you people sticking up for the teachers, bravo. If more people did this, maybe things wouldn’t be so messed up in our school systems.

By C.R.H.

June 15, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this

Burm…you must be from the Savannah area. I used to teach down there and anytime a kid got in trouble the race card came out! Trust me my issues aren’t social, I am (and always have been) one of the more “popular” teachers. I teach mostly honors/AP level. I have taught at many low performing schools with great success. I have chosen to teach at a high performing school to work with a better quality of student, pretty tired of on-level classes filled with kids that can’t read AND DON”T CARE. And don’t ask teachers to be family therapists and try to find out why a kid is misbehaving or why a parent feels that the teacher is racists. Sounds like you are the one with issues!

By C.R.H.

June 15, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this

I almost forgot the most important point: no child has a “right” to an education, it isn’t something that can be GIVEN. Every child has a right to the “opportunity” to get an education. I can assure you, EVERY child that wants that opportunity is given that opportunity. To the ones that are hell bent on being disruptive or wasting my (and my students’) time…don’t let my classroom door hit your butt on the way out!

By Stacy

June 15, 2005 12:06 PM | Link to this

Thank you Linda for posting these important facts for everyone!! I think they bear repeating!!

There are key facts left out of this BLOG. Some key facts are as follows: - A syllabus was sent home and signed by both the parent and student agreeing to Mr. Neace’s rules.

By James McCoy

June 15, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this

CRH:You are my type of teacher that I wanted for my children,a no nonsense type. Parents such as Burm need to rethink their approach to the entire education system. I detect some other issue other then education with Burm. My kids knew when they went anywhere (school,social events) that they were to be on their best behavior. And because I knew my kids(because I spent valueable time with them)that they were subject to be wrong at times. If an adult came to me and said my kids did so and so it was address then,not a resopnse that my kids wouldn’t do this or that. But you can bet your last nickle they never had a problem at school. Thats because education is valued in this house.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

June 15, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this

Absolutely not!!! If a student can prove that he/she did the required work, regardless of the situation, the grade should not be lowered. There should be a separate grade for conduct and you can do whatever you would like with the conduct grade. Sleeping in class is apart of conduct, nothing more or less.

I’m a mother and expect nothing less than excellent conduct from my child and I get those results when report cards are sent home. But, I would show a total lack of restraint for a teacher who lowered my child’s grade, if proven my child actually did the material. Let’s face it, teachers should be impartial and treat all students exactly the same. However, you have favorites and sometimes play favorites to students you like and those you do not care for. I’m speaking from my own personal experiences as a student, not as a parent. Teachers are human and have emotions that sometimes need to be checked at the door. Ex: A student calls you a jerk and you overhear the comment. The student completes the assignment for the day and falls asleep. What do you do? Put it in check!!

I LOVE the teachers “who� tells the class, that “You don’t have to LIKE me, but you had better do the work� or “ you will EARN a failing grade�.

A child’s conduct is one thing, but his academic grade is another. I don’t like disrespectful children and they should be put in CHECK. Lowering their chance of getting into a good college or landing a job is not the way to do it. The next time a student falls asleep in your class, make them stand up the next class session. I think that would change conduct very fast, unless they are elephants.

By sciteacher

June 15, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this

Having read the response of PAP, it is as I suspected. As a High School teacher I have never believed that grades are to be used as punishment for behavior. I do however believe in classroom rules. Many laugh at my Classroom Management Manual (16 pages)but I follow it to a tee. Under “Class Assignments” it states “Any assignment specifically assigned as class work must be turned in at the end of the class period. If the student is absent with an approved excuse they must complete the assignment on the day that they return.” In my electronic grade book I have added certain grade descriptions for zero grades- PNT (present not turned in), ANT (absent not turned in), OPW (other people’s work- cheating). As found in my manual - there are no changes to any of these categories. Since my first year at this school it seems that “athlete-students” usually get a schedule change out of my class immediately. The ones that stay are “student-athletes.” I let them know day one that I was a student-athlete in High School (3 sports) and College (2 sports) - I had to learn how to balance my life. Too many students are led to believe that they are the center of the universe and that the world must cater to their desires. As teachers we see the “important parents” trying to get exceptions for their children; we see the “athletes” wanting exceptions so they can go pro in the future; we see administrators wanting exceptions for their “pet-project.” It gets tiring. I have pulled out my manual every semester to back up my answer of “No!” Athletes have by far been the biggest cry-babies for exceptions. Last year I watched a new teacher jump through hoops trying to cater to two spoiled brats. She had to allow them to make up work for class cuts, tests that they cheated on, and plagiarized papers. After bending in a pretzel the two managed to pass and go to college to play ball. One returned home in January having failed out and the other is on academic probation after his first year. We must prepare our students for the real world were we don’t get paid if we do not work. The real world where they don’t let you make up for days that you did not work two months ago. The real world where they don’t keep you around for long if they find that you are constantly sleeping on the job.

With ethics being one of the big buzz words these days why isn’t someone interviewing the principal that was pushing for the grade change? I wonder if the principal goes this far for Plain Jane or Special Ed Eddie. Probably not.

By sciteacher

June 15, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

Amazed should do a quick research of what has become a growing concern for colleges - Disruptive Students and Student behavior. In agreement with Amazed, all of my students can repeat the phase “We don’t have to like each other to get the job done.” The students need me for educational guidance and I need them to teach. As far as the “proving” that the student did or did not do the work - a dishonest student seldom says “Hey mom, I cheated and deserve that Zero.”

By jack

June 15, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

It is obvious that Amazed (independent woman) is not a teacher, never has been, and is one of the parents who will scream that her “little darling” didn’t do anything wrong by disrupting an entire class. Teachers should be impartial? Give me a break, teachers are human and when they are insulted and abused by out of control students the idea of impartiality goes out the window. When I have rotten kids in my class their grades suffer because of their behavior. I tell them that at the start of the semester and I keep track of their behavior and document any problems. Some parents are very supportive but many come in and defend their child’s behavior no matter how outrageous. The cooperative, conscientious students in my class will always receive the benefit of the doubt, the rude, disruptive, trouble makers will have no leeway. I can’t discipline any other way that is effective, so grades it will be.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

June 15, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this

Sciteacher,

It would be up to you, to prove that my child cheated and I would stand behind you if you are able to do that.

Some teachers have such a bad perception about parents, that you think we all have our heads in the sand or just do not care. I would never just take my childs word over an adult, but I would question the adult. Some even think, that just because you are the teacher, I should just take your word on it. But, to speak up for my child personally. We have rules, that if you speak up for lying, cheating, etc….. the punishment is much better. So she has had to learn the hard way and usually fesses up pretty quickly, plus she would be afraid to call an adult a liar.

When you are in college, you are an adult, plain and simple. But, when it comes to who gets punished in college for the same behavior - it depends upon who’s mommy and daddy is providing the donations. Little Johnny can fall asleep in college as much as he likes, even at UGA, if his donation is big enough.

By C.R.H.

June 15, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

In my 6 years of college (undergrad & grad.) I have only witnessed 1 student ever fall asleep in class. It was in a big lecture hall, the prof. immediately walked up to the student and asked him his name. The student told him his name and he was told to leave and that he was being dropped from the class. BTW…the guy probably didn’t get a refund and maybe was able to hold the books until he was able to sign up for the class the next semester (otherwise he sold them for a BIG loss). No tenured prof really gives a rat’s behind who “mommy amd daddy” are or how big their bank account is. A parent trying to tell a tenured prof how to run their course will cause severe reprecussions for sleeping beauty in many instances! Oh yeah, my M.Ed. is from UGA (‘95)

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

June 15, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this

C.R.H. -

That final decision is not up to the tenured professor and for all you know, he could have been placed in another class or just given a grade.

Also, he could have been moved to another session taught by the same professor, that you wouldn’t know about “A craps *” what really happened.
With the things that have come out about UGA’s programs and students actually attending a class, I would hold off trying to defend your beloved UGA. They made allowances for basketball players and who knows what else. So I’m possitive they would allow a wealthy student to remain, without a doubt.

Dirty laundry is so good, when it’s made light of. I was only using UGA as an example - don’t take things so personally, because I’m no GA Tech fan either.

By abc

June 15, 2005 04:43 PM | Link to this

It seems incongruous to me that a college professor would care about attendance or sleeping (unless that in itself created a disturbance). College students have paid specifically to be there, whether they take advantage of that which they’ve paid for is, in my view, not the professor’s business. If they come to class at all, same thing. The grades they earn will be self evident. That’s the way it was when I was in college.

By g.t.

June 15, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this

Reading some of these comments maks me understand why the public school system is where it is. Parents wnat their kids to be educated and ready to go to college or more importantly get a job. How long do you think your child would survive in the business world sleeping on the job or failing to do their job (assignment) because they had to take a nap. Students might as well get used to the fact the knowledge will only take you so far beyond that attitude and presentation is key. You disrespect your teacher you get a grade lowered (whine) you disrespect your boss you are in the unemployment office. Parents and administrators need to stop treating these chidren and prima donnas because daddy and/or the principal won’t be there to back you up when you get no raise or worse for being stupid.

By C.R.H.

June 15, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this

Amazed…you obviously haven’t been to college. There is a cut off on when you can change your schedule or add a class. And a prof does have the right to remove or give a failing grade to ANY student. Sleeping beauty was NOT put in another section of that course that semester, he had to wait and sign up for the class next semester (and pay for it again). THAT I CERTAINLY DO KNOW (I got friends in low places!) BTW, this wasn’t at UGA, it was at my undergrad school (in the midwest), the guy was a baseball player and I was on the track team. At least he was man enough not to whine and complain…he knew he was wrong! Thanks for playing!

By Dan

June 16, 2005 08:31 AM | Link to this

I am amazed at amazed, she is a perfect example of how a parent undermines our school system. a kid disrupts the class or falls asleep and THE TEACHER is undermining the kids ability to get into a good school or a good job. The biggest lesson in HS is how to learn, and discerning what is necessary to learn the subject and earn the grad is part of it. At the end of the day you end up where you deserve to be

By Karen Armsby

June 16, 2005 08:36 AM | Link to this

abc, Where did you go to college? If the faculty there cared so little if you came to class or slept, then I can understand where you got your views. You ask why a professor should care. Well they are professionals whose chosen career is to impart knowledge to those who signed up for the class. It may be easy for the students in the class to ignore a sleeping student, but the professor is looking right at them, and it is highly irritating and distracting as they try to go through the lesson for the day.

In many of my undergraduate and graduate level college classes the profs assigned seats, took attendance, required regular participation and graded us down for absence, tardiness, and failure to prepare for class. I never saw a sleeping student in those classes. In other classes the profs didn’t take attendance, but if students went to sleep they would always wake them up and tell them to leave.

Your arrogance won’t get you far in the working world. Try sleeping through a meeting with your supervisor, or napping at your desk and you won’t be working there much longer.

By Karen Armsby

June 16, 2005 08:57 AM | Link to this

Amazed, What in the world are you referring to when you say “dirty laundry is so good when it is made light of?” You don’t like UGA, aren’t a fan of Ga Tech, and why? These are both top level universities in Georgia, with high admission standards, challenging majors, and graduates of both schools establish good careers and have a high level of professional success. It seems to me that you are little jealous, and you are throwing dirt for no good reason.

By abc

June 16, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this

Karen I attended the University of Tennesee/Knoxville, Jazz and Studio music; and Macon College, computer science and math. I enjoyed and continue to enjoy the benefits of excellent instruction at both schools.

I consider it a point of professionalism to perform any task at hand with disregard for distractions, and I think college professors would or should consider likewise. If they wish for more respect they can earn it through their words and actions in the classroom, not simply expect it because they’re standing in front.

The best teachers are those for whom teaching is their ideal, not those who would endlessly gripe about the conditions of their employment.

By TTB-POTS

June 16, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this

I’ve asked this before, but it bears repeating:

Is cheating a discipline issue or an academic one? If participation is considered part of the grade (like a lab activity), then is lack of participation (for sleeping, socializing, etc.) a discipline issue or an academic one?

There may be a line between academics and conduct but it’s a fine one. Certain conducts will cause all but the brightest to do less than their best. If as teachers we are supposed to bring out their best then how can we allow them to behave otherwise. Food for thought.

By Karen Armsby

June 16, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this

abc, Do you feel free to skip or nap in your music classes where you are expected to perform? Or in your computer labs working on assignments? Looking forward to your professional life after college, will you hold all others to your standard, that they must prove they deserve your attention and respect before you bestow it? If you work for someone who hasn’t earned your respect will it be OK for you to skip a meeting or put your head down on your desk for a nap? How you treat others now in college is a prelude to your behavior after you graduate.

My point is, what is the difference between how you (teachers and students)treat each other with respect and professionally in high school and college and then later how you (employers and workers) treat each other in the workplace? Respect is a two way street.

The professor is not just a tool that you switch on and off like your musical instrument, calculator or computer terminal that you use in your classes. You have to admit that the professor is in a superior academic position to you, the student, or you wouldn’t have paid tuition money and chosen his or her class to learn their subject. And don’t you respect their knowledge of a subject that you know much less about? Then why aren’t you responsible for showing the most basic respect of attention to their lesson? To sleep in class is an arrogant and immature action, a total waste of the student’s and the teacher’s time.

This lack of respect is not yours alone. It started the whole chain of events that resulted in Doc Neace’s firing at Dacula high School. A sleeping student, and his arrogant and verbally abusive parent who have no idea what respect for a teacher is.

By TTB-POTS

June 16, 2005 12:19 PM | Link to this

It’s lunchtime, so more food for thought…

I took a graduate course in Cognitive Psychology (through the Pysch Dept - not Ed.). One issue that has been pretty well determined in how we learn is that the two key factors are motivation and attention. If a student is not motivated to learn and does not pay attention in class (or to assigned reading or to homework, etc), then NO LEARNING OCCURS.

Motivation is either external or internal - most children need external motivation to help them learn their own internal motivation. That external motivation comes for approximately 5 years from the parents (and other important adults in the child’s life). It needs to continue coming from the parents as it develops internally. External motivation from the teacher is important, but not nearly as important as the motivation from the parents and from the student him/herself as s/he grows, matures, and develops.

That being said, even the most motivated child still will not learn if s/he doesn’t pay attention. While teachers have a responsiblity to use classroom management to maximize attention, students also have lots of sneaky ways to avoid it. I know - as a STUDENT, I regularly wrote notes, doodled, yes, even slept. I also didn’t learn, and my grades reflected that. Luckily, my parents let me know that that was not a wise choice (ouch…) and my motivation was thus re-established.

You need both. Those of you saying that behavior shouldn’t factor in to a grade don’t seem to understand that it will, one way or another. It’s come out that the student’s so-called perfect paper was actually copied! And yet the parents STILL defended him. Unbelievable.

Teaching and learning are not the same. Learning takes effort and work.

By Karen Armsby

June 16, 2005 12:30 PM | Link to this

TTB-POTS, Look at my post on 6/14 at 9:45am in this blog. Discipline, whose original meanings all related to developing good academic study habits and excellence has been reduced by the ‘educated’ ‘zero tolerance’ school administrators to mean only punishment.

The Gwinnett County School Board has a ‘discipline’ policy that states first that the teacher makes the in class assessment of ongoing classroom work, then ambiguously states that the teacher may not punish student behavior with grade reductions. Basically, the teacher is allowed to make an academic assessment and give a grade for student participation (positive behavior), but not assess or grade for lack of particpation or wasting time (negative behavior)! They say the teacher can assess but they don’t really mean it.

Clearly, these ‘discipline’ polices need to be more carefully written. Lets restore the power of the meaning of discpline.

In my opinion disruptive behavior should result in the removal of the student from the classroom and result in punishment. However, the passive non-particpation, wasting time behavior should be an academic assessment.

The student may be wasting time or not be participating because he is not prepared, not paying attention, or is listening to music, text messaging, or sleeping. He isn’t disrupting other student’s learning, but he is not learning, which looks academic to me!

Doc Neace correctly thought this was an academic issue, and the Gwinnett County School administrators approved his classroom syllabus for ten years. But in one knee jerk reaction they decide that NO! this isn’t academic, it’s discipline, aka punishment, and he is fired!

Finally, ask any military officer, and you will find that they know what discipline is: adherence to the law and rules, excellence in performance of duty and adherence to a code of honorable conduct. Can the school administrators take the hint?

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

June 16, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

C.R.H.

I have a B.S. in Computer Science, with excellent benefits and pay. But, I guess that does not counts as a college eduction - since it appears that - you can’t read and can only make stupid assumptions.

Back to my point - money talks and people like you are very naive.

People who complain the loudest (usually) get what they want and the more money involved the faster they get it. This happens in public school as well as college.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

June 16, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

As an African American woman with a college education and many of my family members as well. I do not think highly of many of the southern “so-called” elite universities. So jealousy does not apply, almost “contempt” would be the word I would use. I find it laughable when schools “mentioned” above try to increase their minority attendance. If they had welcomed “US” in the 60’s and not spit, threw stones, etc…..
I might have a reason to feel differently.

By the way DAN: my child is an excellent student - with EXCELLENT conduct, with an OVERLY involved parent. I don’t see that as being a problem. You need a little reading comprehension as well. By the way, that’s not just my opinion: but the principle, teachers, room-parents and daycare workers - it’s been that way since pre-k.

Also, I did not say it was ok for a child to talk back, sleep, use profanity, etc…., etc…., etc….. in class.

I have had enough of the “Take My Word for it People” in the world, just because I chose to become an Analyst and not a teacher. It’s obvious, that some of you like to have parents you can tell what to do. That fine, if the parent accepts, but I’m not one of them.

By Karen Armsby

June 16, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this

Amazed, FYI, Georgia Tech is the most ethnically diverse public university in the State of Georgia. Also a Ntional Society of Black Engineers named Georgia Tech as the best school for engineering. Your contempt is pitifully uninformed.

By C.R.H.

June 16, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this

Amazed- congrats on your B.S. and back to the point, the only people who complain about things not being “fair” are those who want MORE than their fair share. As far as stupid assumptions, well, you are the one who brought garbage information into the blog about UGA. You didn’t attend there (not accepted??), you know nothing of it. Not even to mention the fact that you obviously have never been a classroom teacher! People on the outside looking in seemingly see only what they want to see. Its funny how the parents on this blog always have the “excellent” little angels who are straight A students and have never had ANY discipline issue…AMAZING!

By abc

June 16, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this

The small minded carping and pointless insults bandied about here are appalling. If you people are really teachers, I have to believe that you’re terrible teachers, based on this little window into your personalities. I must have better things to do than to read your petty rants.

By C.R.H.

June 16, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this

Aww.. abc, I must say that looking at how often you post on these blogs that you are awful at whatever it is YOU do. If you had better things to do with your time, I would suggest doing them. As far as the rants…well that is 10 months worth of dealing with other people’s teenagers!

By ambergris

June 16, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this

Amazed you are a pitiful excuse for an educated person. Where did you get your degree?Walmart