Get Schooled

By yesiamworried

June 7, 2005 11:58 AM | Link to this

Yes, they need to compare students from year to year. We need to recognize teachers for the progress they make or don’t make.

The New York City school system just announced plans to study test scores more to see in which schools children are really making progress. A study was recently released that showed that high performing schools actually do little to improve student performance as compared to lower performing schools. The point of this study was that students at high performing schools weren’t making the same gains as their peers in lower performing schools, I think,

Patti, are they releasing individual school scores tomorrow as well?

By Dan

June 7, 2005 12:48 PM | Link to this

Clearly it appears that the child should be given special handling. Just as clear however is the fact that one student out of 80? 100? is not going to significantly impact your overall rating, particularly when offset with the 1 or two exceptional students who test above average and do all of their work with minimal involvement from you. I hope you aren’t teaching math

By Michael

June 7, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this

Dan, You clearly have no idea what you’re saying. A fifth grade teacher will teach an average of 25 to 30 students, not 80 to 100. Additionally, teaching for “average”, as you seem to suggest, is wrongheaded. I teach 2nd grade, but unless every student reached his/her potential I can’t be satisfied. It’s ridiculous of me to say “I have two gifted students, so their scores will offset the two who did poorly”. That seems to send the message that the struggling learners don’t really matter as long as you have enough high scores to balance everything out. There is so much that a standardized test can’t show. I’m not anti-testing. It’s a decent way to guage where a student is and to plan how to get him where he needs to be. But the state wants to simply use testing as a way to quantify a child’s ability into a neat little package that’s easily run through a machine and scored. Sorry folks, but nothing’s that easy, especially when you’re talking about kids (all of whom are unique in their abilities and needs.)True assessment and evaluation of our students can only be done by continued observation and documentation of progress over time. But, teachers have become easy targets for politicians wanting to whip the masses into a frenzy for votes (Thanks, King Roy!) Until we start trusting our teachers once again, we can spend untold millions every year giving this CRCT, and it won’t do one thing to improve student learning an achievement.

By Dan

June 7, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this

Michael teachers are easy targets because our schools have been failing. And politicians love to play the children card but most importantly because our schools are an embarrasment and the 80 to 100 is an estimate figured out by 15 20 students per class period times 4 or 5 classes. Children are tested on more than one subject. So if a teacher has the same child for 4 subjects, statistically speaking that child represents 4 students. I don’t know how accurate that guess is but I am quite sure it is closer than your 25 to 30 which would suggest 5 kids per class. Besides 30 or 100 kids the bad and good will still cancel out from a measurement perspective. In no way shape or form did I suggest that you should be satisfied if two excellent students offset the poor ones, my point is the net effect is that the entire class will be a fair representation of the teacher. Now measuring net improvement has some benefits, but the drawbacks are the inverse of using gross numbers. Students who ace both the before and after would actually hurt the teacher because there is no net gain. Students who tank the first and get an average grade on the second would artificially inflate performance. We have been spending untold millions with no results ed spending has almost doubled in the last 10 years with no results Lastly it’s not about people trusting teachers again, teachers have received the benefit of the doubt for far too long and they lost it, now it is about teachers earning our trust back.

By jmm

June 7, 2005 02:16 PM | Link to this

Judging from your latest post, Dan, you didn’t do too well in English. Your post has several run-on sentences, as if you were too busy to be troubled with periods and the like. As I’ve said in a previous post, I’m studying to become an English teacher, and it absolutely amazes me how bad the English is in some of these diatribes. Get your English right, Dan, and then maybe I’ll start taking your criticisms seriously.

By yesiamworried

June 7, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this

Dan While I believe that the quality of teachers has certainly slipped through the years, I really think that the bigger problem is what has happened in America.
Something like 50 percent of children are being raised in single parent families. Two career families, which were practically unheard of in the 1950s, are common place. Far too many parents don’t respect authority and thus their kids don’t either. I heard a principal of a private school complaining recently that too many of his parents refuse to accept that their kids can make mistakes.

It is a wonder that anyone teaches at all.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

June 7, 2005 02:21 PM | Link to this

Yes, teachers do need to be held accountable for how well their students score. There should also be some grey areas for special cases. I did not receive enough information regarding this specific teacher case to make a sound judgment. However, I’m not sure what efforts were made by the teacher or the school administrators to have this child placed in a special class. It sounds unfair that the teacher would complain, after testing, about the child inability to perform at grade level. I am sure that this was a reflection of his daily work, before the test was given. If the teacher voiced her opinion prior to testing, then she should not feel accountable for the failure at all. It does not speak badly of her that the student did not pass. She would have been doing all that could be done for that particular child.

My advice for the teacher would be to stop complaining about how this will reflect upon you and worry more about where this child will be in 10/15 years, without an education. Also, it doesn’t make a difference, how many children this child’s mother has brought into the world. She could have a truly valid reason for being late. For instance, the fact that the student in the teachers’ class is a special needs child or maybe she works the late shift. It would have been better for the parent -liaison to offer assistance getting the children to school.

By abc

June 7, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this

I agree with Amazed. Academic performance in the midwest surpasses that in Georgia, not because society is drastically different there, but because the schools are adequately funded and staffed. I believe parental guff can be attributed to frustration with Georgia schools that plainly stink. Teachers need to be held accountable for their students testing results. Administrators need to be held accountable for hiring only highly qualified teachers. Parents need to be willing to pony up the dough to fund it through property taxes, which are far below rates in the midwest.

By RC

June 7, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this

There is some confusion about the difference between the CRCT and other standardized tests like the ITBS. The CRCT is supposed to test the curriculum for a specific grade level. A teacher should be “teaching the test”, because he/she is supposed to be teaching the state curriculum. I teach third grade. Before I plan what units or skills to teach for the year, I better look at the state standards and make sure I cover the objectives/standards. If I want to do a space unit in third grade, I should probably reconsider. There are no science standards for space for third grade. There are however standards for forces, motion, simple machines, magnetism, and interaction between living things. I better cover those;they’ll be on the test. A test like the ITBS covers subjects and concepts below and beyond third grade. That’s how they figure out what your kid’s grade equivalent is.

The CRCT is going to tell you if your kid learned enough of the state’s curriculum for his current grade level.(Meets standards) Parents should be looking at their child’s individual test scores and question why their child did not meet standards. What factors prevented the child from meeting standards. It is not always the teacher’s fault. That is where parents need to address their own support of their child’s learning. If they look at the whole class’s scores, they can see if there were areas of weakness for the whole class. Those are the areas that the teacher needs to address with either better teaching or actually look at the curriculum and make sure that it is being taught. The whole school’s test scores should be used to plan school improvement focuses.

The CRCT has positive aspects for school planning. When those subgroups are addressed, the school can focus on the groups that are not succeeding. But we should still have a way of recognizing the schools that are consistently showing improvement, even if they aren’t making AYP. The schools that are making AYP should still be accountable for improving scores. Shoot for more Exceeds Standards scores or improve scores for subgroups. But that sort of data is a little more difficult to put in a simple chart for the newspaper.

By Dan

June 7, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this

yesiamworried you have a point although, in my opinion, people have genrally remained the same, we just hear about a lot more now. I am not sure if JMM is studying english just to parse sentences on blogs, but if he/she is studying any english lit, he can confirm that, if stories such as Chaucers tales, and any number of Shaksperean works are any indication of that eras society little has changed as far a basic human interactions. Older generations have bemoaned the demise of the younger generations throughout recorded history. And JMM you are right grammar is not my strong point, financial analysis is, and this is a blog and my comments had more to do with numbers and statistics, so if you agree to consider my post from that angle I will read yours for insight on sentence structure ;o)

By C.R.H.

June 7, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this

I get so tired of hearing people complain that the teachers in other states are doing their job but the teachers in GA are not. I taught in the midwest (I am another transplant!) and I now teach in GA, most of the teachers in my department (science) are from other states and countries! All of us have come to the same conclusion, the parents here have not stepped up to the plate to get their kids prepared for getting an education. Nor do the parents do much to help their children by making sure they have materials or even do things like taking them to the zoo, science center, botanical gardens or any of the numerous places available for some exposure and experiences that would help them become better rounded students. BTW…GA pays far better than the midwest and many teachers are being cut in other regions of the country, which is why there are so many teachers here from other places. This state needs to be serious about making attendance MANDATORY (we’ll see how the new law goes this year) instead of allowing parents to lie about why little Joey wasn’t at school for 33 of the last 90 days.

By DB

June 7, 2005 03:16 PM | Link to this

Amazed, and abc: Why don’t teachers just do the tests for the kids, and even bring them to school(on time)? Wouldn’t that make things much easier for the kids and give them absolutely no reason to do anything for themselves? That’s exactly what we have in our country, a bunch of complainers who blame everything on others. Better yet, why don’t the kids even go home with the teachers so they can be their parents, too? Should we hold doctors accountable for patients that don’t follow advice? I think not. That’s what you’re saying. If we held ONLY teachers accountable for test scores, two things happen. First, you will have absolutely no teachers in urban areas. And second, tests will start to become dumbed-down more than they already are. This is exactly what has happened over the years in many states. It all boils down to putting real authority in schools and creating great expectations for kids and holding them to it, period. We have only a few good teachers left because of the lack of trust and respect. If conditions were so that every kid worked hard, paid attention, and did his or her best, then teachers can be held accountable. I’m sorry, but I refuse to be judged by the way in which some kid who does absolutely nothing in and out of class performs on a test. It’s ridiculous! Oh, I forgot, it’s my job to motivate the kids, too. Well, sorry, but most kids are not motivated unless you show them a gun or pay them money. If there’s one thing school should teach a kid, it’s that he or she has to work hard no matter what they do and that he or she must behave in a respectful manner in order to be treated respectfully. I’m tired of the sob stories about the poor little children. My own kids have it tough in my house, but they know they must go to school and behave and do their best to learn the material. And guess what? They will do just fine on tests because they are dumbed-down to cater to the rest of the children that can’t sit still for five minutes and think they don’t have to respect anyone. I’m sick of seeing parents and society GIVE children everything they need(or at least think they need) without earning it and then complain that public education is in decline because of teachers. Sorry, but a kid can have a terrible teacher and still pass the tests if they have the proper motivation and work ethic. You’re acting as if these tests are covering brain surgery. You two need to spend more time teaching in the classroom and less time blogging something about which you have no idea. I think after 5 years in an actual classroom teaching, you may differ on your opinions.

By MamaS

June 7, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this

Dan, you clearly do not understand. The high scores of one group (gifted) cannot be used to “average out” the low scores of another group. That is why it is called NO CHILD left behind.
One or two children can make all the difference. In our school (size 800) we had a parent take her four children to Florida on a vacation during test week. She is opposed to testing and did not want her children subjected to the “pressure”. Three of her children are enrolled in special education classes. Our special ed pool is so small that the entire school would fail if these children did not take the test. Fortunately, we had built in some time for absentee testing and she returned in time for us to administer the make up tests within the state time frame.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

June 7, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

From a single mother to you “YesIamworried�:
My daughter is an honor student and so are many of her friends, who are being raised by my single mothers. Being a single parent does not mean your children will fail in school. Being a “Bad Parent� is the cause for failure in educating our kids. I live in a school district where most of the residents are married. It’s an excellent school system, but many of the problems at the school are with the majority of married couples children. Jessica Wilbanks is a product of a two household income and there are many cases such as this one in this country. My daughters’ best friend is a product of a two household income and she is struggling in school. My daughter has offered to help and her two parents gladly accepted.

Being married does not make you a better parent and no research or studies can prove that you are a bad parent if you are Not married. So, “Yesiamworriedâ€? stop grouping single moms as bad parents, because we are not…………………..!!!!!!!!!

Many single mothers take excellent care of their children. I would never say all, because “notâ€? all married couples could say it as well. I felt the need to clarify……

All parents should be held accountable and teachers as well.

By Michael

June 7, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this

Hey Dan,

You prove my point. You say that financial analysis is your strong point. You like things being quantified in nice, tidy little packages. That may be great at the bank, but there’s no way that student progress will ever be that simple. Take for example a child I taught a few years ago. He came to my class (I was a 3rd grade teacher at the time) and it was mid-December. It was his 4th school that year. 4 schools in 5 months! He couldn’t read, couldn’t add or subtract, and was pretty helpless academically. I worked my tail off with him, and by the end of the year, he had memorized all 220 dolch sight words, was reading short books accurately and really becoming a more fluent reader, and had mastered all of his basic addition and subtraction facts and was into 2 and 3 digit addition and subtraction. Now, the rest of my class was reading chapter books and working on division by then, but he had no foundation for that type of work. He had to first learn to crawl, as they say. March rolled around and he took the ITBS. His grade equivelant rounded out to early first grade when the scores came back. Now, I worked harder with that child than with any other child in my class that year, but I was required by my county to write a PDP (Professional Development Plan) telling why this child did not test at grade level. Essentially, they told me that even though he made tremendous progress and got a solid foundation for future success (in spite of his dreadful home situation), his year was a waste and I was a failure, because his “number” wasn’t as high as it should have been. Sorry, Dan, but as I said before, kids are all unique in their abilities and needs. They aren’t little numbers waiting to be crunched, and until we all let go of the notion that assessing them accurately will be easy and quick, we’re not going to get a true measure of what they’re being taught and what they’re learning.

By DB

June 7, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this

Amazed: Can’t agree with you more about the single-parent stereotyping! It’s all about expectations and consistency. Bad parents come from all households.

By Another Teacher

June 7, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this

Dan - quick comment on class size…

Fifth grade is elementary school in most counties. The students typically have a single teacher for the day (some counties team-teach for certain subjects). Last I heard, max number for a fifth grade classroom was 27 (I could be wrong - this has changed a lot recently, due to NCLB).

Sixth through eighth is middle school. I believe the max is 31, and teachers will typically teach 4 to 6 classes; however, in some schools, it’s not all the same subject. Teachers often double LA/SS, M/S, or have an additional reading or literacy class.

My questions is, if you were the parent of the challenged student, would it matter to you if that low number was balanced off by the gifted child?

By DB

June 7, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

Also, I think “Yesiamworried” also meant two-parent families with both working are also problematic, too. Again, it’s bad parents that are the problem regardless of the reason.

By Another Teacher

June 7, 2005 03:48 PM | Link to this

Amazed…if the student was allowed to take below grade level exams, then the teacher HAD taken steps Prior to testing. A child just can’t take any level of test available.

I think the problem is that the child is now in fifth grade, but still on a first grade level. I don’t think that teacher is as worried about the impact of the low grade as the education of that child. The parent should be kicking and screaming in whatever administrator’s or county level office s/he needs to to get that child tested. Why isn’t the PARENT doing this?

A teacher can not legally state that we think a child has a disability, medical or learning. We are not psychologists or doctors. We can let a parent know that there is an issue, and we have options we can do in school (student support team, etc), but the ball is ultimately in the parents’ court.

By Sarah

June 7, 2005 03:53 PM | Link to this

Dan,

I have agreed with you many times as we have posted on other topics, but have to differ on this one. The biggest problem our educational system faces today is not a lack of qualified, committed, effective teachers. It’s a metter of attitude - on the parts of both parents and students. The best teacher in the world can’t reach a student who knows he can do nothing all year, and still count on his parents to come storming in to protest that the teacher “failed” their student. With the exception of those students with developmental issues, teachers don’t fail students, students fail themselves. And they do it because they behave at school as they have learned to behave at home.

If they fail a test, it’s not because they didn’t study, it’s because the test was too hard. And they believe, because it’s true at home, that there is always a way out or around a punishment or consequence.

This has nothing to do with whether parents are single or married, wealthy or on welfare, and everything to do with the pervasive sense of entitlement that is ruining our country.

By abc

June 7, 2005 03:59 PM | Link to this

Okay then: why does the midwest graduate kids at around 90%, and Georgia is around 50%? Why do more kids in the midwest go on to college, score better on college boards and all the other tests? The parents there are about the same as those here.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

June 7, 2005 04:05 PM | Link to this

Another Teacher,

You will be “Amazed” at what “Parents” try to do when it comes to their children, that ultimately gets them no where with the school systems. You as a teacher should know that parents and teachers get the same treatment by the school system.

When does it falls on the “Parent” to say that you should place my child in a special class. If the blog had said that the mother had been asked at the beginning of the school year to place her child in a special class, “But she Declined” - I would feel sorry for the teacher. The mother is obviously not a doctor or pychologist as well.

It is obviously that the parent, teacher and adminstrators do not work together at this school. Take this into account, maybe the parents just do not no what the options are and need to be told. When you spoon feed a little bit, starvation for knowledge will decline. You will have some who are addicted to being spoon fed. But, it’s better to save a few souls and keep the rest from starving.

By Another Teacher

June 7, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this

Sarah…Bravo!! Thank you for saying that. I’m not going to say that there aren’t bad teachers - there are. But they’re in the minority (believe me, they generally don’t last very long in this profession, unless they’re relegated to some backwater cesspool of a school where no one cares). Lumping all teachers or single parents or two income households is unfair and inaccurate.

There is a sense of entitlement in this country; we’re a wealthy nation and our citizens enjoy a decent lifestyle. Factors such as the advent of birth control (parents being able to choose when and and how many children they have), pop psychology and the well-meaning but misguided self-esteem movement, and a multitude of exciting devices that entertain but distract (with gameboys and walkmans in the lead) have all had a negative impact on education.

I have a personal philosophy (and this was before I started teaching) that entertainment focused at children also has a negative effect - how often do you see adults with any common sense in a modern kids’ show? The adults are often idiots and the children/heroes are smart-alecky wise guys. Children have their own TVs in their rooms and watch this dreck unsupervised.

I posted my new analogy on the other NCLB topic but I’m posting it here, too (I’m liking this one a great deal): Education is a three legged stool: teachers, parents, students - if one leg is weak, the entire stool topples.

We ALL need to stop complaining and blaming, LISTEN to what one another has to say, and start coming up with some REAL solutions.

By Another Teacher

June 7, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this

Actually, Amazed, nothing is obvious from the teacher’s post. It’s a tiny blurb trying to explain a situation to give us something to discuss.

My point was that, if the child was taking anything other than the prescribed on-level test, then the child was already “in the system” so to speak. We don’t know any other details, and so to criticize the teacher or unknown facts is unfair.

I don’t find that teachers and parents get the same treatment. Parents seem to have more power, ultimately (and to a degree, they should, because as tax payers, they are technically the customer). What I find, however, is that parents are unaware or uninformed of their rights - occasionally not realizing what they are entitled to, but more often than not assuming they are entitled to more than they are.

As a parent (and a taxpayer, too), your child’s rights stop where my child’s begin.

By Dan

June 7, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this

No one ever said a low scoring student is balance by a high scoring one as far as importance. No one ever said children are all the same and should be taught the same. The tests are a tool to ensure each child reaches a minimum level of competency (and it is minimal)the tests do not require a specific method to achieve that level only that they get there. My comments was simply a rebuttal of the teachers that do not think they should be penalized for having an underachieving student drive down their test scores and my point is that the over achieving student would drive up the test scores with the net effect being all of the test scores create a fair representation of that teacher. Perfect, no, nothing is, but better than what we have now. This is elementary critical thinking, it worries me that a discussion on the statisical impact of a single childs test score brings a slew of defensive anecdotes about children being different and every one being important. That is a completely different topic. If the teachers are this confused it is no wonder the kids are. As to AT regarding class size, I think we agree, even if a teacher has the same 25 kids all day for different subjects, if they take 3 different tests there are 75 data points in the testing statistics (or 50 or 100 depending on how many subjects are tested) and a couple of students outside the “norm” (high or low) won’t impact that significantly.

By Dan

June 7, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this

Great analogy AT (Unfortunately politicians keep moving the darn stool ;o)

By Another Teacher

June 7, 2005 04:31 PM | Link to this

I need to clarify something I wrote…

Regarding birth control - I don’t think family planning is bad; what I meant was that with smaller families, parents are putting more of the hopes and dreams on a smaller number of kids. Bigger families often studied together and helped on another out - kind of a built-in tutoring system (at least that’s how it was in my family of 6). There were fewer resources, so sharing was more prevalent, and spoiling less so. It created a major cultural shift from parent-centered families to child-centered ones. I didn’t mean to make that comment seem as simplistic as it came out - sorry!

I also wanted to clarify to “Amazed” that teachers (nor administrators nor guidance counselors) cannot recommend or place a child in special ed. It’s a very complicated system (that evolved through case law and precedent) that has a lot of steps. Much of it is state or federally mandated. My point was that the parent often has to request (through SST or guidance) that steps be taken. It sounded like the parent was indeed overwhelmed, if they were unable to get his/her children to school on time. Again, we don’t have the full story; it’s difficult to say.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

June 7, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this

Another Teacher,

I will be truly honest with you. I don’t believe that teachers should be given any more control than what they currently have. I have had really excellent teachers and so has my daughter. I would give them anything, including a pay raise. But, the time I spend at my childs’ school - I take notice and I am thankful that my daughter has not been in some of those other classrooms. There are a lot worse teachers, than some would care to admitt. Many of them are truly “Gifted”, but we have checks and balances for a reason. If given a free reign, what would happen? I don’t have free reign in my current position. But, I will admitt that I get paid a lot more than teachers. If we don’t hold someone accountable (parents, teachers, students, etc) then where will we be. If you don’t like where the school system is going - it’s time to find a new job. I take responsibility for everything that happens in my position. I am an analyst and if I present the wrong data - I have no one to blame but myself. I can’t blame the database(parent), the computer(teacher)or the spreadsheet(student). We were all apart of the same team.

By Another Teacher

June 7, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this

Sometimes, Dan, I think the politcians are dousing the stool with gasoline and just waiting for someone to light the match…

By Another Teacher

June 7, 2005 04:44 PM | Link to this

Amazed…where in my posts did I say I wanted more power? Where did I say I didn’t want to be held accountable? Where did I say I had (or even wanted) free reign? Where did I say I didn’t want to be responsible?

I said that we are ALL responsible - students for learning (which takes work - it doesn’t happend through osmosis), teachers for teaching (which is not synonymous with learning), and parents for parenting children to be responsible, upright citizens who respect their elders, their peers, and society in general. The world would be a much nicer place.

I said that parents RIGHTFULLY had more “power” I don’t want to be legally responsible for determining if a child qualifies for specail ed when that is not my specialty - I also don’t want my dentist operating on my appendix.

By another teacher

June 7, 2005 04:48 PM | Link to this

I read comments to this blog on a regular basis and am constantly amazed at the thinking of non-educators. People have no idea what it is like in today’s schools. So, unless you are there on a daily basis and see the political workings, please keep your comments to yourself. We don’t want to hear it.

By C.R.H.

June 7, 2005 05:01 PM | Link to this

ABC…show me the source of your statistics, graduation rates of 90%, I call BS on that stat! More kids in the midwest go to college?? Wrong…quite a few stay on the family farm or work in the family business. BTW… the ACT is the test used for most midwest college admissions NOT THE SAT!! The stat everyone keeps tossing around, “49th this, 49th that” is the SAT ranking for the state of GA. In GA any student (including the ones that can’t even pass the GHSGT) can take the SAT (and they are encouraged to!); in other states (the midwest included) only certain students are encouraged or even ALLOWED to take the SAT. Ask me how I know that…because I was a student in the midwest!!! The state of GA pays for all 10th graders to take the PSAT, what a waste of money! Let students decide if they want to pursue more education and let them pay for it, maybe they will be more serious about education when the money comes out of their pocket and not mine!

By DB

June 7, 2005 05:03 PM | Link to this

Sarah and Another Teacher: Way to go!!! You guys are pointing this blog in the right direction.

abc: The midwest has much better results for many reasons. Schools are smaller and not county run creating a more controllable situation. It is much more rural in that less than 1/20 of the population in the midwest is in urban areas whereas Georgia has about 1/8 of population in Metro Atl alone. What does this mean? Urban schools a bad, and there are more urban schools by percentage in GA than in the Midwest. I’m from the midwest, and moved down here. And the gap between the rich and poor here is much wider. Here, there are filthy rich, upper middle class, and then dirt poor. The gap is much wider as compared to up in the Midwest where most everyone is middle class. Another thing I noticed down here is that people are blatently racist going both ways. I’m not saying everyone in the South is racist, so don’t go there. But it seems the racists are much more visible and blatant, and Blacks have been “put in their place” down here, which is quite sad to say the least. It created a culture that led to most Blacks having lower expectations and less respect for education and authority. I wouldn’t trust the government either! I AM NOT SAYING ALL BLACKS HAVE LOWER EXPECTATIONS!! I must say, I would hate to be black with all the white, racist police down here! You can’t tell me those conditions don’t make people believe less of themselves. I can definitely understand why things are the way they are. The expectations in the “Black Culture” are lower because of the oppression of the past and present, and Blacks represent at least 45% of the population in Metro Atl, and 28.7%(U.S. Census Data) of the whole state. Illinois is 15.1% followed by Indiana with 8.4%, and I’m not mentioning states like ND, SD, OH, IA, and others that have less than 10% of population being Black. To me, it is extremely sad to see the hate everywhere, and I’m not Black. Now, for those Blacks who want to get all fired up about my comments. I’m not blaming blacks for the lower graduation rates and test scores, I’m just saying blacks are more likely to fail and more likely to drop out and make up more of the population in GA as compared to the Midwest. It is all caused by all the racism from the past in an indirect way. Things are getting better, but there’s a long way to go. I’m simply stating the facts in explaining why there are better results in the midwest, so please don’t think I’m a racist. What I’m also saying is that Blacks have less chance to succeed in school simply because they are black. They don’t get the attention white kids get, plain and simple. Luckily, where I work, kids get the same treatment, white or black. It’s just like myself going into Taco Bell in Southwest Atl. I USUALLY don’t get the attention or care I would get in Alpharetta or Cumming, plain and simple. All this has to stop, and maybe kids will stop dropping out like flies in a window sill.

By EZ

June 7, 2005 05:08 PM | Link to this

Another teacher - this blog is a LameO without interjections from us “non-educators”. We need to tell you folks in the fishbowl what the real world is like for these students once you get done molding the minds of our ungrateful offspring. Got it? Good?

By em

June 7, 2005 05:32 PM | Link to this

Ten years ago, I was a purchasing manager for a major international entertainment and news organization. Although I enjoyed my work, I found employees ill-prepared for the work force, lacking in basic English, math, and analytical skills. Believing the television commercials and desirous of giving something back to my community, I idealistically entered education after an eleven-year career in materials management. Upon entering education, I have discovered that the problems currently facing public education are vast and complex. The tendency is to blame the teachers, stating, “ we need to raise the qualifications of teachers.� While there are average and poor teachers, many excellent teachers routinely go unnoticed. Although additional testing is an integral part of the solution to ensure student, parent, and teacher accountability, a complete restructuring of the public educational system may be necessary. Charged with training future teachers, the various schools and colleges of education across our state exert great influence over public education. Entrance requirements for undergraduate and graduate schools of education traditionally have been mediocre at best. At one state university I attended, the minimum grade point average for entrance into the education program was a 2.5 and there were prospective teachers struggling to maintain that minimum. The public requires more from its doctors, lawyers, and even business people, why not the same discerning standards for educators? While becoming certified, I was instructed by education professors who had never been in a classroom or had been out for so long that they did not realize the present issues facing public education. Schools of education often emphasize education courses rather than subject content. In addition, some schools of education skew the distribution of grades because rarely are grades less than a B assigned. Education professors and consultants barrage teachers with their latest research and their ideas invariably conflict. The concept of self-esteem has been touted ad nauseum; students may not be able to adequately read or write but they feel good about themselves. Instead of adequately preparing teachers, schools and colleges of education have allowed public education to become the forum for the latest trends with a propensity to focus on the process rather than the result. Teachers are products of these institutions. School systems tend to emphasize that which is tangible rather than intangible. School are becoming larger, allowing students to become lost in these overcrowded, impersonal monuments of inefficiency. The school in which I teach excels in technology. Each classroom maintains five or six computers; however, they are rarely used because of the difficulty with classroom sizes that average 30 students. In some schools, an adversarial relationship exists between teachers and school administrators who lack the leadership qualities necessary for inspiring and insuring quality education. Public schools tend to be administratively top-heavy with a hierarchical management; many administrators are predisposed to micromanagement. Evaluations tend to center on methods of teaching rather than outcomes. Administrators with personal agendas alter the curriculum without the proper resources yet it is the teachers’ responsibilities to make those changes work. I have observed administrators admonish teachers for referring discipline problems to the office. Parents and students must bear responsibility regarding the current state of public education. I never meet the majority of my students’ parents; usually there is contact only when the child is in academic trouble. I have witnessed teachers who incur the wrath of an overindulgent parent when clearly it is the student who is not performing to standards. I have observed parents more concerned with their child’s involvement in extracurricular activities than the basics of a quality education. My failure rate increases each fall due to the emphasis placed on football practice and band practice. Parents as well as students tell me that after putting in 3 or 4 hours of practice per day, students “are simply too tired to study.� In public education, I have come to realize that many teachers “teach to the middle� because the majority of students do not want to be challenged. I find a vast majority of students want to be spoon-fed as well as entertained. The majority of my students will not read assigned material. I have encountered numerous students who cannot comprehend subject material, yet they are in high school. Many students come to school to socialize. Some come to school to escape their environment for a few hours. Many students have jobs and, much to their detriment, the accentuation is on short-term wages rather than the long-term benefits of an education. In order for students to flourish, public education must gain adequate parental support. There is a high correlation between student achievement and parental involvement. It is difficult to achieve educational goals when the governor and the state superintendent have conflicting agendas. The Georgia Department of Education requires certification in the field in which each teacher will be teaching. Understanding that a minimum criterion is necessary, it nevertheless took two years to become certified in secondary education social studies although I hold an undergraduate degree in political science and a graduate degree in business management. With a graduate degree in business management, one would think that I would be teaching business education classes. Unfortunately, the school of education I attended disallowed credit for my graduate business courses because I attended a private college. A college, I might add, U.S. News and World Report has over the past twelve years consistently ranked among the nation’s best liberal arts colleges. It would have taken three years to attain certification in business education and the curriculum required introductory undergraduate business courses that I had previously taken as advanced courses at the graduate level. Certification does not necessarily guarantee expertise. In secondary education, if certification is in science, a teacher may be required to teach anything from biology to physics; math, a teacher may be required to teach anything from addition and subtraction to calculus. A social studies certification requires a teacher to be proficient in six different disciplines and, in many cases, have an ability to coach. Early grades certification permits teachers to teach from kindergarten to sixth grade; middle grades certification authorizes teachers to teach children from the fifth to eighth grades. Due to budget constraints, teachers may teach out of field with the endorsement of the State of Georgia. Financial incentives for good teachers are non-existent. Conversely, there is no penalty for inferior teachers. A teacher’s salary in the State of Georgia is based exclusively on degree held and length of service. The State of Georgia also attempts to coerce students into staying in school. Tying the receipt of financial assistance or a driver’s license to school attendance is an incomprehensible concept. My limited experience has ascertained that by forcing students to stay in school, the state has created both behavior and academic problems not alleviated them. As the adage states, “You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.� What are some of the solutions to this abysmal picture of public education in Georgia? While the elimination of tenure and the implementation of testing to insure accountability is a beginning, more is needed. The students and parents ought to be as accountable as the teachers and school systems. If we raise curriculum standards across the board, students will rise to them. Teachers must return to the basics. Despite being politically incorrect, there is nothing wrong with traditional teaching styles. While technology is a wonderful tool, we must remember that it is a tool, not the much-touted panacea of public education. Recent studies show that the use of technology does not significantly enhance test scores. In analyzing the cost-to-benefit of technology, we may discover that the cost is not justified and a reallocation of financial resources would better assist students. We must increase the standards for entering colleges of education and stress subject content over education courses. Place more emphasis on academics rather than athletics. Eliminate teaching out of field for required courses. Make sure that students know how to read before promotion to the next grade. Eliminate social promotion and grade inflation. Allow teachers the ability to remove a disruptive student from the classroom without fear of retribution from parents or administrators. Shift responsibility of discipline to the parents; make the parents more accountable for their child’s behavior. Parents must realize that schools to educate not baby-sit. The State of Georgia might be better served with a European or Asian model of public education. Public schools should partner with technical/vocational schools in order to emphasize apprenticeships rather than state mandated academic subjects for students who have no intention of attending college. Grant merit pay for excellent teachers. I took a substantial reduction in salary in order to teach. Although salary was not a primary determinant, it is disheartening to realize that I can return to my former profession earning between $10,000 and $25,000 per year more than the $38, 000 I currently earn. If you expect to entice individuals from the private sector, be prepared to compensate them commensurate with their expertise and achievements. The State of Georgia must provide adequate funding to downsize classrooms immediately, not three years from now (I currently average 32 students per class). The student-teacher ratio needs to be less than the proposed 28 students per core class. This would eliminate many discipline problems, grant more individualized attention, and reduce teaching related stress. This past year, I completed my ninth year of teaching; despite the fact public education is fraught with problems, I enjoy teaching but am growing weary amid the distractions. Since I am the type of person the government has been attempting to attract into teaching, it is ironic that I am contemplating not returning to the classroom for a tenth year, resuming my former career instead. Unfortunately, the recent “groundbreaking� legislation for public education will probably not produce the results the federal and state hopes to achieve. I challenge those not in education to discover what I have discovered, many excellent educators who continue to have high expectations but are increasingly dissatisfied due to impediments beyond their control. Until the problems confronting public education are thoroughly addressed, I fear fewer people will enter the profession and more will exit.

By Tracey

June 8, 2005 08:44 AM | Link to this

Yes, I feel the system judge our teachers unfairly. Teachers work as hard as they can in the less than comfortable circumstances they face everyday with difficult students and difficult parents. Whatever happened to parents taking responsibility for the education and well being of their own children? If a child is not doing well in school, on standardized tests or cannot read/write/speak correctly, we have to look at what the parents are doing to help the situation. Parents have more power here than teachers will ever have. If the two(parents & teachers) work with one another, communicate, and support one another just think of the great things our children will be capable of achieving.

By teacherbobinfla

June 8, 2005 08:53 AM | Link to this

I just read this section with fascination and really needed to respond. Progress made by women in the last forty years has greatly impacted the public schools. (OH, RELAX, I DIDN’T SAY THAT IT WAS BAD OR WRONG!) Once the schools got the cream of the crop of the young women who were college educated. Among young African-American women, the percent was staggering. With salaries as they are today, and affirmative action in the private sector, schools can no longer compete for these young women. We now select from the second tier and a few dedicated people who have a desire to teach and rapidly advance to administration. Additionally, time being finite, working mothers who drop children at school at 7:00 A.M. for precare, and return to retrieve them at 5:45 at aftercare cannot possibly give their children the time and quality conversation that many of us received from our mothers in the fifties. Schools are not as good as they were, neither are homes or churches, or Cub Scouts or the YMCA. The life we knew has changed, and until someone finds a way to return these circumstances to a balance, the schools will continue to appear to be “failing” children. I admit that I don’t know the answer, but whoever finds it will be forever recognized as a savior of our society.

By Matt

June 8, 2005 08:55 AM | Link to this

Dan,

Although I agree with you on most of your views, I would ask that you go teach in a classroom before you make statements like “it’s not about people trusting teachers again, teachers have received the benefit of the doubt for far too long and they lost it, now it is about teachers earning our trust back”. I too worked in the business industry and I went into teaching and I have learned that there is so much more to what teachers do than what people think. My wife and I both teach and believe me, we could save the taxpayers money becuase a lot of it is wasted. However, teachers are doing more and more and for the most part better and better. Teachers are dealing with kids on drugs, parents on drugs, lack of “good” parent involment and communication, sexual abuse, mental abuse, health issues, lice, stinky children because the parents don’t bathe their kids, hungry kids, kids with little or no clothes, kids who don’t respect their teachers or anyone else, and on and on and on….

So before you say teachers need to win you back over, believe this —- you have no idea what you are talking about.

As a financial expert, ask questions relevant to your field and let the teachers do their jobs. Why do we spend so much money on “programs” that replicate what we’ve been doing for the last 40 years, (reading programs, math programs and others). We pay millions to buy a program for a school to raise scores when we could spend much less to teach parent classes or fund parent/student activities that would allow teachers, parents, and students to work together to learn the basics to raise those scores. The money you speak of doesn’t go directly to the teachers and students, it is spent on companies who promise to raise scores, find better teachers and make your state one of the best. It is also a fall back for politicians to say they bought this program to help students and teachers…..when in fact it’s a program good for talking about when running for office, but that’s about it. Teachers can teach the basics and students will learn when they want to learn.

Also, the one thing not taught in school that should be, is how to be a “good” parent. Not parenting class, but the responsibilities that come with being a parent. With all the academic programs we teach, the most important job in one’s life is not covered in our schools. Parents used to do it, but parents aren’t prepared to do it anymore.

By Raymon King

June 8, 2005 09:13 AM | Link to this

If you have never worn the shoes, you cannot tell how good they wear or how much they hurt.

Been there, done that, and got away before the dirt showed in the milk!

By Sylvia

June 8, 2005 09:18 AM | Link to this

EM, I agree with the first part of your post where you talk about the education degree being considered more important than an advanced degree in a specific subject, but take great exception to the rest of your conclusions: 1. You seem to object to any extra-curricular non-academic pursuits such as athletics or band. Mens sana in corpore sano? 2. You suggest that we follow the Asian or European model. Our culture is completely different from Asian culture. We cherish and value the individual, while Asians value the group. In Japan and Germany children go to school 240 days a year. European society is basically a Socialist society while we are a capitalist society. What does Japan produce other than cars? Can you name any great Japanese authors? Filmakers? Artists? athletes? I find the belief that academics trump all other pursuits to be quite scary. Surely we are capable of both! Just because Georgia has problems doesn’t mean that we should disregard our culture and ape the Japanese or European model. American education for the most part is excellent, and our Universities are superior to the rest of the worlds’. Many states in the U.S. perform admirably - and to its credit Georgia is now adoptimg some of their curriculum standards. We are Americans, and despite some problems that come with freedom, we are the greatest country in the world and will continue to be as long as we remain Americans and don’t allow our culture to be bastardized by political correctness and other Marxist philosphies. The worst thing that we could do is adopt the education system of other countries and mold our children their way not our way.

By Just a Mom

June 8, 2005 09:22 AM | Link to this

My kids went K-12 through Gwinnett County schools, and I spent a lot of time volunteering in the schools. Here are my opinions: 1. Stop blaming the school systems for failing kids and low graduation rates. The parents are the first teachers and most important influence on their kids’ learning. Accountability starts and ends with the parents. 2. Standardized testing should be limited to the ITBS and a graduation test. Many teachers have told me they spend way too much time preparing their students for the too frequent county and state tests. Standardized tests are used only for the school system’s publication of statistics and not for individual student remediation in deficient areas. 3. Teachers are burdened by too many administrative guidelines and paperwork. Let them teach, period. 4. Teachers should be allowed to focus on teaching the basics of reading, writing, critical thinking, public speaking and debate. Teach kids how to ask questions, to find the answers, to question and debate the authority of ‘facts’ presented to them. All other learning of facts flows from the acquisition of these skills. 5. Currently, the career path for better pay for teachers leads them out of teaching into administration. How backwards is that? Teachers need guaranteed tenure and increased salary compensation for years of experience, advanced degrees, and good performance. 6. School administrators should be good people managers, who create an encouraging and enlightening work environment for their teachers. School superintendents should be in charge of building and maintaining school buildings, ordering books, cafeteria food, and toilet paper. They should hire intelligent principal managers, and keep their hands off enforcing teaching models and endless standardized testing. If the parents step up and the administrators back off, then maybe the teachers can finally do their job.

By Michael

June 8, 2005 09:25 AM | Link to this

Hey Teacherbobinfla: I agree with just about everything you said, but I must take issue with one thing. You say that people dropping their kids off at 7 and picking them up at 5:45 don’t have the time to spend with their kids. While they clearly don’t have as much time as parents may have had in the past, time is still there. It’s simply not being utilized. I’m an elementary school teacher, high school football coach, and a single father. I have almost no free time, but I still make time to be with my son, help him with homework, and engage him in stimulating conversation. We eat dinner later than most families, especially during season, but he does homework at the kitchen table while I cook, we eat together (instead of grabbing fast food every night and gobbling it down in the car while a dvd plays). We take a trip somewhere in the state at least once a month. Sometimes it’s just down the road to Sweetwater Creek State Park, other places are further away. The point is, I want to spend time with him, so I make it a point to do so. Is it exhausting? You bet. But, it’s also my responsibility as a parent. Not the school’s or clubs or teachers or anyone else. I teach young children whose only quality time with parents comes when they eat chips on the sofa with mom while watching Jerry Springer on tv. Every fad program in the world and countless millions in educational spending won’t make much of a difference until parents take the time (yes, you have to find it and take it) to spend with the children that they have chosen to bring into the world.

By abc

June 8, 2005 09:26 AM | Link to this

Iowa graduates 93% of high schoolers, Georgia 54%. Nebraska, Minnesota, Michigan are nearly as high as Iowa. Data sources are the U.S. Census, U.S. Dept. of Education, Manhattan Institute. Look it up; I’m amazed that anyone would be unaware of these statistics.

DB: I’m not buying your speculation of bad grades due to demographics. Suburban schools have the same ethnic makeup as the nation as a whole, and they still lag behind the nation in most categories.

So, how come Georgia gets such poor results from our schools? The most common reason cited in these blogs is lousy parenting. Surely parents here are, by and large, not that different from parents in Des Moines, Omaha, and Detroit.

By yesiamworried

June 8, 2005 09:33 AM | Link to this

teacherbobinFla

I agree with what you said. Recently I sat with a bunch of my mom’s friends, all former educators, some still working, and they said the same thing. When they went to college, which back then was the exception not the rule anyway, they had so few choices. The vast majority entered nursing or education. Now looked what has happened, severe nursing shortages and a decline in teacher quanity and perhaps quality. (Not saying that the world was a great place back then, just making the observation.)

Also, I find, sorry amazed, that most single parents in our school are much more mobile than their married counterparts. While there are exceptions, in both groups, almost all the children who complete all 6 years in the same school come from two parent families. The research is strong that each move costs children academically.

By Mr. W

June 8, 2005 09:43 AM | Link to this

Good morning all. I have enjoyed the blog today. I am a first year teacher for A.P.S. at a high school in Southwest Atlanta. I am originally from Chicago and can speak volumes amid the comments and remarks of the day. However, I wont stray too much. First and foremost, I have not lived in Chicago since 1998, but education up there was in fact different, directly related to the difference in culture. Yes, this generation of children are different. Their parents are the problem. There, students were not spoiled by being chauffered everywhere, given everything, allowed to keep things when the child’s responsibility was not met, and consistently allowed to be their own boss. Moreover, Midwestern society has higher expectations. I had a parent tell me that my standards were “too high” for her lazy, apathetic, potential-filled son. My standards were so high that he eventually came to me and admitted that he in fact, like many students, did not know how to study. How in God’s name and green earth does a fifteen-year-old NOT know how to study? I could not understand that to save my life. However, I gave him some things to do and his work quality increased several degrees and he finished with a slightly inflated B, thanks to extra credit. He went from an approximate 75 in the class to an 81. Not bad at all in a semester where his class read three novels and about twenty short stories, five poems, composed three essays all increasing to a three page length, worked on grammar, composed poetry and novel presenatations, and so forth. Unfortunately, I am still teaching below grade level from my schooling experience. In Chicago, we did not have the widespread social promotion that allowed students reading at the third grade level to be in high school and flaunt their lack of literacy. Also, parents were more supportive as they did not have the power, time, nor energy to try to get grades changed administratively. Also, we did not have the loopholes there that are in place here. What is a deficiency? Is is a piece of paper that allows the teacher to cover his/her butt because the child knew he or she was failing. That can get a child out of failing because it is administrative policy to give every child one. A crock of bull and spoiled balonga. That is the students and parents job to check up with the academic progress of the child.

Moreover, the gap between rich and poor is not the problem here in the south or other areas of the country. It is the lack of the wealthy. Let me explain what wealthy is as I use it. My family was very wealthy and still is, although I make probably the most or almost the most in my ENTIRE family financially. However, what made us wealthy was family support, values, morals, boundaries, and discipline. Am I saying that my family alone is the only family that has these things? No. Am I saying that we alone strive to live up to these? No. However, I am saying that our culture is robbing the family of this “wealth” that I speak of. I have students that call this twenty-something teacher “dad” because I discipline my kids, check on them, am genuinely concerned about what is going on in their lives, and work to instill or reinforce, whatever the case may be, the values that are prized in this society. However, many students are so entrenched and enticed with the hip-hop culture of today that is an uphill battle without the support of the family and religious institutions. What else can a teacher do? I understand why teachers are retiring early. They are not equipped nor have the energy to fight these debacles. Yes, it would be nice to have things like certain schools in Cobb or North Fulton County like brand new computers with printers, LCD monitors, a working Internet structure in every classroom, a class size of 24 kids (which I did have this year in all classes, but I still had the discipline problems, attitudes, apathetic performance, and attendance problems) and so on, but the issues I overcame coming into teaching in October with classes that did not have a regular teacher were simply too intense, in-depth, and irregular to overcome in one simple school year. Therefore, get off the backs of the teacher. The average teacher is doing his or her job to the best of his ability or understanding. You want more out of the teachers? Put more in them. Give them more resources to work with. Give them more flexibility and say so or authority to run the classroom as THEY see fit. After all, the blood is on their hands if it does not flow as deemed appropriate. Allow him/her as the adult and authority to deal with children that simply will not do as told, make an effort to work, and so forth. Make parents be parents, and if they wont, follow whatever procedure is necessary for the well-being of the child. Make the children FIRST!!! Not some children, but all children. They all need it and all have to survive in the world. Parents, train and mold your children so that the teachers can do their job: teach and reinforce the proper values that you already put in them. If the home is broken and not measuring up, that pressures the teacher to try to compensate for that. Unfortunately, that is not alwyas possible. Parents rear the children, teachers teach the children, government, simply lay down guidlines and standards and pay for them to be reached. Religious community, support the parents and teachers. End of story.

By yesiamworried

June 8, 2005 09:48 AM | Link to this

DB

I used census.gov to do a comparison of Iowa and Georgia. This is what I found. Georgia is about 3 times bigger in population.

Iowa is 94 percent white, Georgia is 65 percent white. 86 percent of Iowa adults have at least a high school diploma, 78 percent of Georgians do. (But if you go to the census website and pull up the Georgia fact sheet and click on the map by the high school graduate data, you will find that Metro Atlanta is really pulling this number up.) Lots of Georgia counties are in the 50 percent range.

The studies are clear— minority students struggle more in school. Compare Georgia to other states with similar populations — let us know what you find.

It isn’t all about the parents, but it isn’t all about the teachers either. There are real cultural challenges in the African-American and Hispanic communities that need to be addressed before some of this challenges can be solved.

By Mr.W

June 8, 2005 09:49 AM | Link to this

Thank you Just a mom. I appreciate your comments, as probably all teachers and educators do. Simply put, our teaching system, structure, and so forth are simply broken and we need to start over again.

By abc

June 8, 2005 09:49 AM | Link to this

Just more parent trashing. What a one-note samba.

By Dick

June 8, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this

As the spouse of a teacher in the State of Georgia, I am sick and tired of the teachers being the scape goats for our educational system. Teachers are being blamed for too much homework, not enough homework, too easy testing, too hard testing. We are reaping what was sown years ago when our intelligent(?) federal and state officials decided to close all the small schools and consolidate school systems. The officials wanted headaches, they now have them and cannot find the magical pill to get rid of it. The solution is simple,(1) go back to smaller schools (not class rooms);(2) place the responsibility where it belongs-at the feet of the students and guardians,(3) place operating the schools back on local level (not state or federal); (4) listen to those who deal with the problems day in and day out—the teachers, do not listen nor pay for the experts opinions, most of them are former teachers who could not make it in the classrooms, so they decided to write some type of program to sell. What works in Atlanta will not work in smaller towns. To Perdue and Bush, I say drop in on the teachers and talk to them. do not talk to the administrators as they are scared to death of you, talk to the ones on the front line——the teachers.

By abc

June 8, 2005 09:54 AM | Link to this

There’s a difference between how many adults have a high school diploma in the state, and what the high school graduation percentage is. The former includes all adults of all ages; the latter is concerned with how many freshmen the schools have compared to how many seniors graduated 4 years later.

By Just a Mom

June 8, 2005 09:56 AM | Link to this

abc, You sound like an administrator as you are hung up on demographics and statistics. Teaching is a partnership, Parents and teachers together, and lose the administrative overhead.

Mr. W, You are right on target!

By Just a Mom

June 8, 2005 10:03 AM | Link to this

to yesiamworried: I grew up in an armed services family, and we moved a lot. I went to three elementary schools and four high schools. I had parents who encouraged reading and good study habits and I did well in school. My kids have done very well in school, in part because of all my nagging to do well in school : )

By Sly

June 8, 2005 10:04 AM | Link to this

Does anybody read these huge posts?

I’d bet the private sector could do a whole lot better solving the education problems and issues.

Trying to fix what we have now is like putting new rims and tires on a beat up old 1985 Oldsmobile.

By RF

June 8, 2005 10:08 AM | Link to this

As a teacher, I must address two issues. First, Georgia teachers are under great pressure to improve performance from a variety of sources, not the least of which is the overly critical media. Stories never appear about good things happening in our schools, but let one negative thing come up and we’re in the headlines again! I have friends who teach all over the country, and time and again we who teach in Georgia prove to be progressive, dedicated, and devoted to the task of teaching our children and making progress. We work harder, teach better, and have a better curriculum than many high test score states. We teach a greater diversity of students from every social class and economic level known in this country. Good, devoted parents send us kids who are capable and willing. Bad, lazy parents send us kids who are unmotivated and uncaring. As the saying goes, “the fruit doesn’t fall far from the tree.” Hold your heads high teachers, and have faith in yourselves. We’re working hard in Georgia!

Second, get off the backs of single parents. I am a full-time single dad raising two sons. I teach all day and spend all evening and every weekend devoted to my sons’ lives and educational success. My sons perform at and above grade level in all areas. There are many kids they know from two-parent families who are not as capable. The key is NOT the number of parents in the home, but the dedication of those parents to the lives and growth of the children. Some of my best students have come from single-parent homes. I sacrifice just like any couple to make my sons successful, and I highly resent the constant implication that single parents are incapable of raising successful children. I read to and with my sons, cook meals, clean house, and do it all by myself. My sons are just as happy, successful, and well adjusted as any other kids I know. Children in my neighborhood who have two parents beg to come spend time at my house because we have fun, we learn, we study, and my children flourish from the attention and devotion they receive. Couples I know call for my parenting advice! If your children come first in your life, it simple doesn’t matter if how many parents are in the house. I challenge any couple to do the job of parenting any better than I do as a single parent!

By Just a Mom

June 8, 2005 10:10 AM | Link to this

Sly, Yes I read all of these posts start to finish this morning, took me about 15 minutes, and it is well worth it. There is a lot of good information here. Need help with your reading skills?

By Jason

June 8, 2005 10:14 AM | Link to this

Note to Dan, Well Dan, the fact of the matter is I do teach math, and I teach it very well. The cold, hard truth is this; teachers at the 4th Grade level are pushed to pass along students that clearly have no reason being passed. The majority of my class (18 students) did not pass the CRCT in 4th Grade and came to my room significantly behind. As a 5th Grade teacher, I expect students to have basic skills in reading and math that I can then build on. Obviously, my example of the youngster that tested at the Kindergarten level was the extreme, however, I did have a number of students reading at a 2nd Grade Level, and operated at a 3rd Grade level in Math. In total, Dan, 7 of my students did not pass the CRCT. (Of course it was overlooked that these children did not pass the CRCT in 4th Grade.) That is a total of 39% of my class. When the numbers came back, I (and the rest of the 5th Grade team) got raked over the coals. However, compared to last year, each child made gains in reading and mathematics. A 39% failing rate suggests that I am a poor teacher; but I am not a poor teacher as I raised each child’s score significantly in core subject areas. It took our Instructional Specialist some time to get a comparison of the children’s scores from last year, because they have never thought to do that before. Again, this brings me back to my original point: you cannot compare two completely different classrooms of students and hold a teacher accountable. It must be looked at to see if individual children have made gains after a year of intensive study.

P.S. Wasn’t that the whole message of Summer School starring Mark Harmon?

By Dan

June 8, 2005 10:20 AM | Link to this

Well Matt, you do make some good points and I am truly not bashing teaching I understand there are many challenges. My personal opinion is that the primary responsibility for education lies with the parents and the child. While true I haven’t taught a class of youngsters but I have coached youth leagues baseball and football, and taught classes in the business world. All of which pales to actually teaching children and young adults, however it does put it in context. But I reiterate my original point, I originally responded to a teacher who told a story about a 5th grader scoring at kindergarten level and complained that he/she should not be evaluated on that student. I simply informed him that one such student would not impact his overall test scores, in all but rare cases the results will be indicative of the average students performance. This is simple math it does not take a financial analyst to understand it. But I vehemently disagree with you regarding teachers winning back trust, teachers have and still get mostly a free pass regarding that (as do doctors nurses firemen etc but we know their are poor performers there as well). Now it is very clear, that funiding is mismanaged in education pols like to say how much money theuy spent on education (what was it 3million dollars of school computers found in a fulton county warehouse last summer) But acknowledging all of the variations of students, good, bad, needy, disruptive, quiet, good test takers and bad, I think it would be fair to say that each teacher, in a given school, over the course of the year works with a similar mix. (special ed excepted) Given that, would it not be fair to say that the teacher who best connects with the kids, inspires the kids, and instructs the kids would as a result equip those kids with the knowledge to do well on the exam? Wouldn’t the inverse be true as well? Don’t some teachers work their butts off emotionally and physically and still not get through to the kids? Should they still be allowed to teach? How do we ensure kids don’t graduate from 4th grade without reading much less HS. I am wide open to suggestions I just haven’t heard any that are better

By Just a Mom

June 8, 2005 10:21 AM | Link to this

Jason, You confirmed my statement that standardized test results are not used for individual remediation of student deficientcies. We taxpayers are paying for the testing, the teachers are wasting valuable teaching time teaching to these standardized test, and then the results are not even used to help our students in failing areas. We need to stop this useless testing now!

By Dick

June 8, 2005 10:35 AM | Link to this

I watched a bus load of students unload Tuesday in my town, less than 3% of the 60 had books to study for Summer School.ummer school is such a waste of tax payers money. It is nothing more than a tax payer based baby sitting service. How can a student learn in 4 weeks what he missed in 36 weeks. Do you really want to know what is wrong with educational system in Georgia? Attend a PTA meeting and the following Friday night attend a football game. That should be the answer to your question.

By Sylvia

June 8, 2005 10:46 AM | Link to this

Question for teachers who have students performing below grade level: How does your school separate students into classes? Do they mix them all up regardless of ability, or do they separate out the students who are behind from the on or above grade level students? In my son’s school they separated them this year and this year they had the highest CRCT scores in the county and the highest writing assesments. The concept of “mainstreaming” students may be contributing to your problems - big time! Mainstreaming is a recipe for disaster.

By Just a Mom

June 8, 2005 10:57 AM | Link to this

Sylvia, What school system is your son in?

By raven

June 8, 2005 11:03 AM | Link to this

I think that you are right and you have a reason to be mad at who ever you want but I this kid in the 5th graded on a kindergarten leval

By DB

June 8, 2005 11:05 AM | Link to this

Actually, after looking up all the demographics, it’s more than 1/8 of GA population in Urban areas. It’s more like 1/4 since 4 million live in the metro area as compared to a total population of 8 million. However, another point is that you also have more private schools than any other place in the South, which further concentrates minorities in public schools skewing the numbers. Yes, abc, it’s not all demographics, but demographics alone may be what’s taking GA from say, 24th to 49th, so numbers and demographics aren’t all that reliable. I wasn’t trying to say it was all demographics but that demographics alone probably put GA and Alabama on the low end simply due to statistics. And statistics are not all that great when it comes to education, especially when most educators have no idea how to properly analyze data. I was also predict that inner-city Chicago, Detroit, etc. has similar graduation rates as Atlanta, but again, they make up much less of the population up there as compared to down here in GA. And yes, abc and others, there is a much accountable society down here. It seems the ones with high expectations both academically and behaviorally are in the minority, but again, I think that’s the result of the socioeconomic gaps from the past. The norm here is trailer trash and ghetto, which results in a population that doesn’t respect education. However, those that respect education in GA are some of the most well education in the nation. And because of the “status” gap, communities don’t work together because everyone’s so segregated. When I messed around in high school, the principal would, let’s just say, humble me without haste, and then my dad would kill me again when I came home. Then the town would chastise you because everyone knew everyone. It’s just not like that down here. But I must say, I’ve taught up there also, and things are not much different than down here anymore. The whole nation is crumbling because of the lack of personal accountability. It’s a societal thing, and I wouldn’t say it’s limited to GA. It goes back to that sense of entitlement.

The crux of matter rests on the fact that teachers know exactly how to improve the situation, but it’s always the politicians and parents, i.e., those furthest from the battlefields, that end up running things and making educational policy. It’s obvious it’s not working.

I’m done wasting my time with this blog. No one listens anyway.

I wish everyone good luck in saving the world!

By Bubba

June 8, 2005 11:11 AM | Link to this

Childrens’ performance in school is a complicated thing - the child’s abilities (IQ and other skills), family background, home and school culture, and teacher’s expertise are all factors, along with others. You can’t judge teachers solely by the student’s scores. I have worked in schools for almost 25 years now and have seen some of the very best teachers in the lowest scoring schools and some truly bad teachers in the highest scoring schools. There is much more to it than the teacher’s skill. By definition, half of the population is below average. All children can learn but not at the same rate. Georgia’s schools need to improve but we need to deal in reality and not the sound bites and hype that the media and politicians provide. Mark Musick of the Southern Region Education Board notes that we constantly hear that Georgia is 50th in the country in SAT scores but do you ever hear that there are actually only 23 states where the majority of kids take the SAT and GA’s white kids ranked 16th among those 23 states (ahead of NH, PA, and MN) and that Georgia’s black students ranked 12th (ahead of FL, NJ, TX, NC, MN, CT, and PA)? why aren’t they screaming in Minnesota?

By Just a Mom

June 8, 2005 11:14 AM | Link to this

DB, I am listening. Write your thoughts to your school system superintendent and to the state school superintendent. There is power in letter writing.

By DB

June 8, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

Just a Mom: Thanks for the support. I’ve done all the letters and ranting for the past several years. I’m going to write a book as soon as I have time. The problem is that books aren’t too powerful in the U.S. because the masses don’t read(or can’t read-how ironic). I guess I could have my nephew, a filmaker, make a movie. Then it may actually change things.

Bubba: Great points! Everyone outside the classroom thinks numbers tell everything, and it’s just too complicated. As a scientist, I laugh at about 90% of the “studies” and data all the education specialists quote because fewer than 5% have any validity although they base policy on them.

By Just a Mom

June 8, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

DB, I will help you edit your book. Let’s call it Education for Dummies, and it will sell millions! Your nephew should do an expose like ‘Supersize Me’ and show the results of education, rather than the testing statistics, specifically how many kids go to college, graduate, and in what fields they are working. That is the true test of success. And show what level of parental support and teacher freedom do these successful school systems have. Gather the info independently. Statistics are dangerous in the hands of education administrators!

By Another Teacher

June 8, 2005 11:36 AM | Link to this

Wow…so much to respond to…

First, to EZ - unlike my lowercase namesake, I welcome non-teachers comments. However I don’t like bashing and generalizations - I find them to be non-productive. Your comment about the fishbowl was unecessary - many teachers, myself included, aren’t from a traditional education prep background. We spent time “in the real world” so to speak, before teaching. My daughter was in 9th grade when I began teaching, so many of my comments come from a parent’s point of view as well as a teacher’s.

Yes, Sly, some of us read these long posts - we write them as well! It’s only fair. And I agree with you about the private sector - plus it would pay more, right?

As to abc and others who like to quote statistics - Mark Twain made some comment about lies and statistics (I’d look it up, but I don’t feel like it right now). You can bend and twist statistics to make your points in a lot of different ways. There are many factor to look at - demographic break-down, income, rural vs. urban, population totals, average schools sizes, etc, etc…When you quote a statistic, please put your source so those of us who are curious can look it up.

To Sylvia, “tracking” is no longer considered good educational practice (despite the number of in-the-field teachers who might disagree). However, there was a study that showed non-tracking of gifted students actually hurt their education, so a lot of schools have gifted programs. “Mainstreaming” is something else: it’s the practice of placing a special ed child in the “least restrictive environment.” It is Federally mandated (I can’t remember the law, but I’ll look it up when I’m done posting). What’s fashionable now is “differentiation” - tailoring instruction for the different levels in your classroom - essentailly, tracking without the separate classes.

Wow, EM, you and I agree on a lot of things! I, too, took the non-traditional route in becoming a teacher, and I saw some things that floored me. I think all education professors should have spent some time in a tradtional classroom, and should be required to spend some time in one to continue teaching in a teacher prep program. Minimum GPA should be raised. The structure of teacher education should be changed. Go to www.enc.org and look up this month’s issue of Focus for a very interesting new way of structuring teacher ed - it’s based a little more on a doctor model with teaching interns and master teachers, etc. My only questions, who would pay for it?

Sylvia - I don’t think we need to adopt everything about a European or Japanese model, but they do have some very good things. I particularly like the opportunity to apprentice.

to abc, if it’s not teacher bashing then it’s parent bashing. I’d like to see all the counter-productive bashing stop. We’re all in this together. This is not a problem with a single easy answer.

DB - please come back - we can save the world together….

By Another Teacher

June 8, 2005 11:40 AM | Link to this

Thank you, Bubba! Terrific points!

By abc

June 8, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

The Mark Twain quote about statistics is along the lines of ‘There are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics’. (No, I’m not a school administrator! That’s kind of funny!)

‘Course, another funny Twain quote is on exercise: ‘When I get the urge I lie down until it passes’.

The statistics are there though. So far I haven’t heard of any good solutions (blogging or elsewhere) or even any concrete reasons why Georgia graduates fewer high school students than other states. My family back in the midwest attributes it to their own stereotypes and misperceptions — they say it’s because the South is poor. Which isn’t entirely false, considering the entire region.

By Sylvia

June 8, 2005 12:11 PM | Link to this

What is “tracking” exactly? Is that putting students of similar abilities together or is it mixing it up? Gifted programs are fine, but they are just extensions of the basic curriculum tht the kids recieve, which often include advanced study already, such as advanced math. If gifted or advanced kids are stuck with below average kids for the rest of their classes then they are being held back and the disadvantaged kids suffer too. This is just common sense, and I don’t need any studies or education professors to prove it. I may not have used the technical definition of “mainstreaming” but I think you understand my point. We endured the farce of the Federal law when in school in Maine. There were severely autistic kids in the classroom with everyone else, but each were devoted their own private teacher who was with them all day -thanks to taxpayers. This was ridiculous, and I don’t need any education professors to tell me I’m wrong about this either! We’ve had far too many politically-correct fads in our education nationwide. Re following Asian or European model, what do you mean by “apprentice”? Is that what we call “intern”? I hear this idea about following the Japanese model all the time and it frankly makes me crazy! Glad that you are only referring to one portion of their system. By the way, my experience with Georgia (and South Carolina) schools so far has been good to excellent, but my kid lives in a community with a lot of parental involvement. I think that there is a lot of hysteria on this blog with a “Chicken Little” the sky is falling attitude that is way over the top, especially from people who won’t admit that there are cultural differences that play a huge role in whether or not kids fail or succeed. If your role model is a pimp or drug dealer or a politician who exploits “racism” and promotes hatred and resentment of “whitey” then the kids will have a hard time succeeding. Sadly this has been the staple food for “minorities” for decades - but it wasn’t always like that. A great read on this subject is “The Future Once Happened Here” by Fred Siegal - and it will make you a bit wary of too much local control also - especially when groups like the Black Panthers take over the local school board.

By DB

June 8, 2005 12:11 PM | Link to this

Here I go again… Here’s all we need to adopt. We need to put consequences back into the system for all, especially students. Don’t discipline parents, that’s too much of a waste of time and too far from the situation. The students need to learn that bad behavior creates bad consequences, and good behavior creates that happy feeling. Quit inflating grades and praising kids for simply showing up to school. Grade them fairly and make them feel a real sense of accomplishment. And make those that don’t work feel left out. Sorry, who ever said we can’t let one kid fail is a moron. Some kids just don’t do well in mainstream school, so make them work and get on with their lives and quit wasting our money and time. This society is so hooked on the “One Size Fits All” cliche, and everyone seems to think college is for every kid. No, any kid who wants to go to college should be able to. That’s all a society can even realistically but unlikely offer. And for the most important part, kick out those who don’t abide by the behavioral and academic expectations. Make bad parents have to deal with their own kids, not society. These kids and parents are what makes public funding wasted. And believe me, they will not get worse if they leave school. They get worse by staying in school, and they bring down others around them, too. Let’s call it the “No Excuses” camplaign where you go to school to learn, or you don’t go. Or you can learn to say, “Do you want fries with that?”. I’m tired of the talk that kicking bad kids out of public school(forced daycare) will make the streets more unsafe or will make people more stupid overall. Sorry, but kids aren’t learning much last I checked, and people are quite ignorant anyway. Just go to another country where you’re lucky if you get an education at all. The people may be uneducated, but they are respectful, and they smile and praise you when you let them wash your windshield or whatever. Why not start teaching about life in school? Why not instill in them that they will have real consequences for everything they do? Get it through your heads. It will not be any worse. And if it does get worse, it will only be temporary because everyone will eventually learn to once again respect an education and authority, including police. Wow! Wouldn’t that be nice.

Besides, a successful society to me is one where you can go order something to eat, get everything you ordered and a sincere thank you. And then your “Thank you.” is much more appreciated. Now, we get our orders back completely messed up, and there’s a tip jar at the end of the counter and an unthankful person there glaring at you because you didn’t give them a tip! People are there just for paychecks and have no interest or concern for others. They talk on their cellphone while working, etc., etc. That’s what needs to change, and it doesn’t take one year of Physics or some great curriculum to do that. It simply takes a public education system based on accountability and hard work. I would love my tax dollars spent on training a n interested kid to become a mechanic that can go straight into the field after high school and become successful. We’re not doing anything other than creating a bunch of idiots who blame everyone else for their problems? No wonder we live in such a society we do. Does anyone watch the news?

By No Ego

June 8, 2005 12:25 PM | Link to this

Yo abc - yup, the South is poorer than the North. But not just in dollars. Its poorer in instilling in it’s children ambition, rising above the masses, and planning for the future as much as living for the now. Yes - a major generalization here, but more true than not. Private schools and vouchers will work everywhere.

By Matt

June 8, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this

Dan, the answeres are simple, but costly (to overly funded pork programs). Until funding is directed into the schools and not “scientifically based” B/S programs, nothing will happen. (Scientifically based is good, but too ofter this term is used to sale products to schools the same way diet pills promise to take the weight off while you sleep)

Example: School system spends millions on reading program. Same school has an average of 27 students in each class. What do you get? Higer reading levels, better test scores, higher performing schools? Actually, it’s not much of anything. Scores may go up a little, but then the program becomes too costly and in two years it is gone, only to be replaced by another program being sold by another “educational” company.

What’s the fix? Put money into smaller class sizes. More non-certified staff to handle bus duty, lunch room duty, making copies, etc.. and let teachers plan, implement, teach to smaller groups and give them time to do what a teacher needs to do which would include parent contacts and motivation and all the things not measuarable on a test. (Also, the paperwork now required that is sooo time consuming for SST’s, EIP’s, IEP’s, etc…)

I agree with testing and I agree with holding teachers accountable. But, that’s like a manager of a big retail store being told to run a businees and giving him one cashier, one stocker, one custodian and being told to order the products, stock the product, train the new cashier, fire the stocker that didn’t show up, clean the restrooms and windows, sweep, mop and keep up with the money….all while the customer is being forgotten.

Could we cut pork programs and technology programs to reduce class size and assist teachers with their duties? Yes, but no one will do that, especially with these “educational” companies funding politicians and those same politicians shoving this stuff down teachers throats.

Teachers know what to do and how to do it. The answer is giving them the enviornment (smaller class sizes) and time (non-certified staff) to assist with their duties so that they can make good lesson plans and teach good lessons.

By Another Teacher

June 8, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

Sylvia - tracking is putting similar-ability students together. My junior high had 5 tracks; my high school had 3 (in Massachusetts).

Mainstreaming isn’t necessarily supported by education professors (or teachers). It’s federally mandated - whether we like it or not. Again, I think it’s an example of a decent, well-meaning idea implemented in a sometimes disastrous way.

By internship/apprenticeship I mean that a student at the age of about 13 (post-eighth grade) enters a program where they learn a skill (cosmetology, electrician, computers, graphic design, etc). They spend a small part of their day in school and the rest of their day learning on-the-job. When they graduate, they get, in addition to a diploma, a certificate that allows them to work in the field. It’s a shame we don’t offer programs like that.

abc - I forget to ask: if I’m willing (and I have) to state that there are indeed bad teachers, and definitely flaws in the system, will you please admit that there are at least SOME bad parents? We don’t make these things up! I’ll defend my parents for the most part, but I had some that NEVER came to school, never responded to letters or phone calls home. Their children, for the most part, were the majority of my “problem students.”

I won’t say the problem is all parents (I fully believe it’s a partnership), but I know what I do as a parent, and I know some of the children I teach have parents that don’t.

DB - I totally agree with you about the one-size-fits-all mentality - it ties in to Bubba’s comment about 49% percent of people being below average.

What do you all think about 1st through 3rd grade being a flexible grouping, where instead of grades, students are evaluated by a portfolio evaluation and a checklist of standards. As they complete each goal they are moved on - regardless of age.

By Dan

June 8, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this

I still think the local administrations have most of the say in how the money is spent, which is good because the people should be able to pressure them. Question for the teachers (and this is touchy) regarding class size. The genesis of this question is my own experience, growing up I had a few teachers who made a significant impression so in my mind these are exceptional teachers whom inpired me to think in ways that still frame many of my thoughts to this day.
There is always the push for smaller classes, but I suggest that an excellent teacher would be more effective with 30 students than an average one with 20-25. If this were true, it would be conceivable to retain the top 70% of teachers give them a 10-15% raise and improve the educational opportunities of our children. (of course there are always many logistics of implementaion that would be difficult but those aside) What do you (as teachers) think

By Another Teacher

June 8, 2005 01:09 PM | Link to this

I forgot…

I had some websites for those who are interested…

Populations around the country are vastly different. An interesting site is www.greatschools.net

On that site, you can look at both test scores as well as demographics for schools all around the country. The test scores a couple years old (2002-2003, I think) but you get a good picture, nontheless (if you want to focus on Atlanta area schools, the AJC info is more current).

Next, an interesting site, with a different perspective, is www.ratemyteachers.com

Here, students rate their teachers - it’s fun to see what students think.

Last, is a site summarizing some of the work of Ruby Payne. She has done research into the mindset of people living in generational poverty - it’s very interesting.

http://homepages.wmich.edu/~ljohnson/Payne.pdf

Finally, I agree about the “latest, greatest program” problem that plagues education today - even as a teacher, it’s frustrating to spend time being trained in one program, and expected to write lesson plans following that format, only to be asked to change it all a couple years later when some new program (usually same stuff, different package) comes along.

And, regarding technology - great tool, but a house isn’t built with just a hammer. I have actually started making my kids work on projects without the internet because their basic research skills are terrible, and their plagiarism skills are quite proficient (for example, did you know you could cut and paste from the internet directly into a powerpoint slide - you can, and they do!).

By Another Teacher

June 8, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

Dan - on class size, there are some differences in opinion and study results.

I know from my personal experience (in my other job) that when I would visit Catholic schools, they had class sizes of about 30, even in the younger grades. Behavior was exemplary, and learning took place. However, behavior problems could be expelled.

In my school, (public, 70% free/reduced lunch), I definitely felt I taught my smaller classes better. Why? Fewer behavior problems - and those that happened could be dealt with swiftly. Also, I could give more attention to those that needed it - they didn’t get lost in the crowd and they didn’t need to wait as long for me to help them. This also contributes to fewer behavior problems because a lot of kids misbehave when they are bored (often bored because they can’t follow what’s going on) and/or because it’s “better” to be bad than dumb - at least in a kid’s mind.

Studies are inconclusive, but I believe I read one that did say smaller class size was more effective in schools like mine.

By pkatzzz

June 8, 2005 01:32 PM | Link to this

No Ego: And exactly what statistics are you referring to when implying that northerners are better people than southerners? I’d be curious to see that data, because if that were the case, you might want to warn all those “superior” northerners moving down here in droves looking for a better life. Or perhaps they’re moving down here simply to beef up their feeling of “superiority” by confirming their stereotypical prejudices?
No, my friend, I challenge you to look at the demographics of areas you claim that instill ambition and planning in their children up north, and you will find that areas in the south reflecting similar demographics yield similar results. In other words, the data repesenting the academic achievements of the inner city of Detroit or New York’s population would look remarkably similar to that of the city of Atlanta, and that the results achieved by the surburbanites of both cities would be quite similar to each other as well - and much higher than their respective urban areas. Yet, more money is spent per child in the urban cities than in the suburban areas. You know, maybe the north and midwest instills a higher sense of personal ambition in their children, but based upon your blog and many others I’ve seen here, it seems to also instill hypocrisy, bigotry and a dazzling blindness to the truth…along with a gross lack of manners and critical thinking skills.

By pkatzzz

June 8, 2005 01:40 PM | Link to this

I have a question regarding the original problem: why did it take the end of the year - and a standardized test - before noticing that a 5th grader couldn’t read or write at the kindegarden level? Why did that child’s 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th grade teachers not notice as well?? As far as support goes and based on his mother’s attitude, I would venture to guess that the time spent by his teachers on his discipline problems far outweighed any time they were able to spend actually teaching him anything - or the time he spent doing his homework and studying.

By Another Teacher

June 8, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

For those of you who are interested…I did a little research and I found some websites. I tried to include a little blurb from each one. Granted these are from a quick google serach, and by no means conclusive. I tried to find sites that weren’t for educators only, but in some cases it couldn’t be helped. Remember, too, that parents can find a lot of good info about trends in education from parenting magazines, as well.

On tracking:

http://www.agentk-12.edweek.org/issues_page.cfm?id=26

The arguments for tracking are more subtle today than they were 90 years ago. Tracking proponents say it is easier to teach relatively homogeneous classes and unrealistic to expect everyone to master the same curriculum. They say students feel more comfortable and learn better when they’re grouped with peers of similar abilities. And they say tracking enables teachers to tailor instruction to the needs of respective groups of students.

Opponents of tracking fear that the labels students are given early on stay with them as they move from grade to grade. And for those on the lower tracks, a steady diet of lower expectations leads to a steadily low level of motivation toward school.

On differentiation:

http://www.adifferentplace.org/classroom.htm

In a differentiated classroom, teachers differentiate content, process and product according to a student’s readiness, interest and learning profile.

On internships/apprenticeships:

http://vocserve.berkeley.edu/CenterFocus/CF1.html

As an effort to meet the needs of young people who are not college-bound, youth apprenticeship has attracted a great deal of favorable attention. Youth apprenticeship, as the term is used here, is not an expansion of the apprenticeship system, currently practiced in the U.S., that serves the labor supply needs of specific occupations.

On mainstreaming:

http://home.att.net/~ysinger/main.htm

How did the Mainstreaming Act develop? Congress was able to pass Public Law 94-142 in 1975. This law meant that disabled children had to attend regular classes for either part of or all of the school day. Placing disabled students in least restrictive classroom environments with nondisabled students was the true meaning of mainstreaming. School psychologists and special education teachers had to begin writing Individual Educational Programs for disabled students. An IEP was a document describing the child’s disabilities and a detailed plan about achieving his or her academic goals (Savin, 1994).

Last, class size:

http://www.nwrel.org/nwedu/winter_00/4a.html

Again, there is a lot more info out there if you are interested…this is just a small sample.

By Dan

June 8, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

I think all things being equal a smaller class would be benifical. But the other side to the problem is are there enough or could there be enough qualified teachers. Here I go with math again, in GA over 19% of the pop are between 5-18 approx 2.3M in 2003 #’s there are almost $5M adults between 18 and 65. this means to have 15 kids per class over 3%(curretnly adding elem mid and HS = 2.5%) of the pop must be qualified teachers the only occupations with % that high are retail sales and cashiers. Which gives you an indication of where these teachers would come from The highest % of a profession requiring college is nurses at 1.8% and accountants at .89. So even if you had unlimited funds it would still be difficult to hire qualified teachers unless you lure them with significantly better wages, and if you do that you do have to ensure you have the cream of the crop. We need to come up with some creative improvements

Just some food for thought

By Rather Not Say

June 8, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this

I totally understand. It looks like the school in which I teach will be labeled a failing school because one student in a special category did not pass the CRCT. How does 1 out of almost 900 students cause a school to be labeled failing?

By abc

June 8, 2005 02:23 PM | Link to this

I was reading yesterday that GA had adequate qualified teachers, insofar as 80% of teachers were certified, and teaching classes that were within the scope of their major/degree. This was on a Dept. of Education website.

By Another Teacher

June 8, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this

Interesting numbers, Dan - I’d actually be happy with 20 - 24 in a class - I believe there was a study done that showed less than 15 was actually detrimental - I’ll have to try to find it.

Some studies also show that it’s more important in the lower grades as a preventative measure rather than in the older grades as a cure.

What about parapros in the classroom to reduce the student/teacher ratio? The para could work with small groups under the direction of the teacher, and/or help with some of the administrative duties while the teacher was teaching. If this were the case, though, I would want to see better trained paras - at least a 2 year degree, or some sort of certificate. That in turn would also mean more money…

I like the idea of master or mentor teachers working with intern teachers, too - this could possible create smaller student/teacher ratios.

By Bubba

June 8, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this

two items to clarify in Another Teacher’s comments… PL 94-142 DID NOT require disabled children to attend part of their schooling in regular classes - it DOES require children to be educated in the least restrictive environment, which could be in the regular classroom or it could be full time in a special ed classroom or anything in between…

and there is some confusion with tracking and grouping - tracking is bad because it is inflexible - the kids on a ‘low track’ were expected to continue to be low and they couldn’t get off the low track. I cannot see any logical rationale for “tracking” in the past or today. Differentiating for instruction and grouping for instruction are both good practices as long as they are flexible. As adults, some of us are quick learners and some are not and some of us are poets and some of us are engineers, kids learn at different rates and have different skill sets and it is efficient and effective to use small flexible homogeneous groupings for instruction at times.

By Dan

June 8, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

abc I am sure there are guidelines but I was talking about good teachers and my belief that a true teacher with 30 kids is more effective than someone who just acheived their certification with 20.
In ref to my budy AT, Good reading on some of this. But to put some scope around the huge numbers thrown around by pols, if the entire $1.2 billion dollars (from the website you cited) a year clinton promised were used to hire more teachers in GA at a salary of $46k you could reduce class size from 30 to 22.5. However if GA got it’s pro rata share it would be a reduction of .3 students per class and that isn’t accounting for benefits for teachers or any administrative costs of such a program. In other words it would have zero impact (except on election results)

By Robin

June 8, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this

My son just completed the 5th grade at a Cherokee County School. He was diagnosed with ADHD the summer after his kindergarten year. It took another year for his Neurologist to get his medication regulated. Because of this, he missed the fundmentals of reading that our children are taught in K5 and 1st grade. After he had been on the medication a year, he developed a seizure disorder. The medication he was taking for his ADHD is now known to cause seizures. I took him off the ADHD medication and worked very closely with his 3rd grade teacher to monitor his behavior. He still has the seizure disorder and is now wearing glasses because of vision damage. My son had very caring teachers for K5 thru 2nd grade but it was not until he was in 3rd grade that his teacher told me he needed to be in special-ed for reading. She helped to connect me with the right people at his school to get him tested and placed. When he was tested, they found he was reading at a 1st grade level. I worked with the school to set up an IEP plan for my son. He has been following this plan for the past 2 years. He goes to special-ed for his reading and spelling only. He is in his regular class room for all other subjects with some special modifications, verbal math questions can be read to him to help him understand,etc. In the 6 years we have been in the school system, I have only had 2 teachers who refused to follow the IEP plan and made things difficult for my son. Both of these teachers believed that if he went to special-ed for reading, he should be there for all of his classes. If he was going to be in their class, he had to do the same work as every other student. While this was very frustrating for both my son and myself, we survived.

My son is now reading at a level equal to the beginning of 5th grade. He is on the honor roll and very proud of himself for what he has accomplished. He took the CRCT test and scored a 293, only 7 points away from passing. This is amazing considering where he was at 2 years ago! This was with his reading the test on his own (I could have had the test read to him because he is in special-ed) I expect that by the time he completes 6th grade next year, he will be reading close to grade level. If it were not for his special-ed teacher, he would not be where he is today.

I said all of this to make the point that you get out of the schools what you are willing to put in. I believe there are a lot of really good teachers out there who are trying to make a difference. If parents will stay involved in their kids school, we can help weed out the ones who aren’t. You can’t send your child to school and expect the teacher to make them a success with no help from you. I also don’t believe that test scores should be the only way we measure our teachers. A teacher can do all she can for a student, but if they get no support from home, the student will likely fail. My son has been taught to respect his teachers, even when he believes they are wrong. He knows if I get a call from the school, I am going to assume he is wrong and the teacher is right, unless proven differently. I don’t mean that I will not support him if he is right, just that I don’t automatically assume my child could not be at fault like a lot of parents do. My son has come home telling stories about 9 and 10 year old kids who cuss at the teacher and refuse to do what they are told. He had a kid in his class last year, throw things at the teacher whenever he got mad. I have the utmost respect for good teachers. It is job that I could not do in this day and time. Instead of blaming our teachers for the shape our kids are in, we need to get involved and help them really make a difference.

By Dan

June 8, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this

Paras would probably be excellent particularly in discipline and giving some one on one help to those who need it.

By Another Teacher

June 8, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this

This from an article called The Curse of Teacher Isolation, and a Possible Cure

“We envision schools organized in teams comprised not of equal-level, egalitarian teachers, but of education professionals who have achieved different levels of knowledge, expertise, and responsibility. In these schools, the principals supervise not 50 or 60 teachers and paraprofessionals, as is now the case, but a cadre of perhaps four (depending on the size of the school) chief instructors. Each chief instructor, in turn, supervises and is responsible for the performance of one or two teams, each made up of professional teachers, teachers, associate teachers and teaching interns.

Chief instructors are at the highest level of the teaching profession, having passed through several gateways of certification and review. They are the team leaders, supervising teams of other professionals. Chief instructors meet with, and report regularly to, the principal.

Professional teachers are veterans with advanced degrees and several years’ teaching experience. Their responsibilities include classroom teaching, with options for mentoring, supervising interns, mentoring associate teachers, and engaging in teacher research and/or curriculum development.

Teachers are licensed after a minimum of two years’ teaching experience, a master’s degree, and performance assessments. A teacher may remain at this career level or prepare for becoming a professional teacher.

Associate teachers are the novices, first-time teachers who are participating in an intensive two-year period of induction. Rather than flying solo, they teach classes only part of the week, or day, as they receive constant supervision and mentoring. At the end of two years they will become fully licensed teachers.

Teaching interns are graduate or undergraduate students who work full-time in classrooms as part of a degree-granting program with a nearby university. They are not on the fringe of the school but are considered to be junior faculty who have responsibilities for the instruction of children.

So who is in the classroom, actually teaching the children? At one time or another, everyone on the team is.”

This could be a way of bringing in quality people and reducing the ratios.

The entire article can be found at:

http://www.enc.org/features/focus/archive/isolation/document.shtm?input=FOC-003703-index

By C.R.H.

June 8, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this

abc…your stats are skewed (read that as “WRONG”!) I have taught in schools that have a “4.2% drop out rate” here in GA, I know that the drop out rate was higher…they didn’t count the kids who are incarcerated or fill out the withdrawl slip. A lot of places (including those in Iowa) do the same to keep the stats low. However,there are fewer dropouts in rural areas because the parents see the value of education. I have students that think they could drop out and make more money than I do because they can sell drugs. And yes, I have had several actually tell me how much money their “friends” make selling dope. Don’t hear that kind of crap much in the midwest areas I grew up and taught in! I must say I agree with DB…let the kids go make a living if they don’t want to stay in school, somebody has to clean the toilets at the highway rest stops!

By abc

June 8, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this

They aren’t my statistics, they’re the US Census, Dept. of Education and Manhattan Institute. As to their accuracy, I can’t say, but I must assume they’re at least close.

Regarding giving up on poor performers and behavior problems, and letting them have at the most menial of jobs: sure, fine. But I would have thought teachers would have more concern and compassion for ALL the students, not just the more angelic boys and girls.

Some of you apparently teach in impoverished areas and suffer/see the suffering incumbent to poverty. I would think there would be people dedicated to helping those in such a condition, why don’t you just go to a more prosperous area? Not being snarky; honestly curious.

By Another Teacher

June 8, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this

This was my last year of classroom teaching. It was a nightmare from start to finish.

First, I took a $13,000 pay cut to reenter the classroom from five years as an education administrator. I was willing to make that sacrifice.

Second, I would not mind 25 or 30 students per class (I teach high school) IF ability-grouping of students (tracking) was still allowed. However, with all ability levels in each class (times five per day) and only one 55 minute planning period, no teacher has enough time to sufficiently differeniate his/her instruction UNLESS there is ability-grouping of students.

Third,my high school students this year were rude and disrespectful to me and to each other.

Example, I literally had to put myself at risk to step between two students who were fighting. They were already shoving each other hard enough to knock over desks and inflame the other students before I could get to them. Did I think twice before I did stepped between them? You bet I did, but I did do it. Afterwards, upon reflection, I decided that I had been lucky that time, and that I would never do such an idiotic thing again. I truly do not believe my luck would hold out a second such experience.

Four, there was no place to send a disruptive and/or belligerent student. At my high school, there were procedures to follow to remove a student. I had to stop teaching, complete a referral form, and send the problem student with a responsible non-problem student and the written referral to the appropriate assistant principal. Frequently,I could not convince a responsible non-problem student to take on the role of escort. I don’t blame them; would I want to be considered a collaborator by my peers? This process could take perhaps five to eight minutes to complete. During that time, all the other students are off task and mayhem reigns. It will likely take another five minutes, if I’m lucky, to re-establish order and move on with the lesson.

I once rather brazenly told a student to leave the room and stand in the hallway. I didn’t want to take the time to follow the process; I just wanted this one student out the room. I fully expected the student to wander away from the classroom door, and I knew I would have to deal with the consequences of one of my students wandering the halls without a hall pass. However, the student stayed right by the classroom door. Unfortunately, an assistant principal came by and asked him what he was doing just sitting outside the classroom. When the student told the tale, the assistant principal opened my classroom door, returned the student to the classroom while informing me, in front of my class, that I couldn’t send a student into the hall. If there were a problem, I was to follow the established procedure. Not at all helpful or respectful of me as a professional.

Fifth,students continually told me I was too strict in my expectations with regard to their behavior. I would not allow students to listen to IPods or CD players during class or surf the internet over their cell phones or use their cell phones to make calls. All of these activities are specifically listed in the student handbook as banned activities, but students told me that all their other students let them do these things. I refused to bend to this pressure.

Sixth, students continually told me that I expected too much of them academically. They wanted to read all assignments aloud in class, not have a reading assignment for homework. (I taught English to 10th and 11th graders.) Why? Because they don’t understand what they are reading if they read alone! They begged me to prepare any notes they should take ahead of time and just hand them out or to put them on the overhead or the board as we went along. Why? Because that’s what their teachers had always done. No one had taught these students how to move from prepared notes to developing their own notes! They wanted me to prepare a study guide for them for each test for the same reason: all their teachers have always done this for them. I worked very hard to convince them that—- the ability to listen and/or work in a group and/or complete a reading assignment and draw out what is important enough to make a note, and then, review these notes as their study guide —- were important life skills that they would likely need in whatever line of work they eventually performed, let alone use them on the next standardized test they would take. I truly tried to construct activities to teach these skills, but most of them were resistent.

Seventh, my contact with parents found that they generally fell into two categories: those who talk the talk but don’t walk the walk and those who are offended that I have called with a concern with their perfect child. Most of the latter group were verbally abusive to me. There were,of course, parents who would listen and follow up on my suggestions or requests with their child. I always made sure to call them back with the good news of their child’s improvement afterwards. However, even among this minority group of parents, things can run amok. Twice this year, I had a parent (the dad) come to school the day after I had spoken with mom, dragging his son into my classroom with him. There had proceeded to demand loudly and forcefully that his son apologize to me for not doing the assignment or not working hard enough to improve or being disrespectful, whatever the reason for my contact. He threatened his son with dire consequences should such action occur a second time. His 11th grade son stood before my desk, head hanging down, barely speaking above a whisper; he was mortified that I and other students were witnessing this event. Frankly, after this had happened twice, I never called that parent again.

Finally, I had three preparations daily, meaning I taught three different grade levels daily. That fact alone required enormous effort and time, let alone grading, contacting parents, paperwork,faculty and department meetings. There is no way one 55 minute planning period would be suffiecient. I have always taken work home with me weeknight and weekends. However, my engineer husband usually finishes the work he brongs home in an hour or less. I never finish what I bring home, but I generally quit after three or four hours to spend some time with my spouse before bedtime.

Yes, I no longer feel up to classroom teaching. I will miss it, but I don’t need the hassle and disappointment in my life. Administrative work was too remote from the action; classroom teaching is too close to the action. It was draining and debilitating. I am looking for work outside the field of education—-another victim of burnout!

By sylvia

June 8, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this

The arguments that I’m seeing against tracking seem ridiculous. How does a kid get “stuck”? At the end of the year you give them a test and see what progress they’ve made. If they’ve improved, then they can be moved up. How difficult is that? They’re being tested anyway - especially now with NCLB. Ask yourself - were schools better years ago before tracking became unfashionable, or are they better now? Apparently dispensing with tracking went hand in hand with the outcries about improving self-esteem. If tracking is so bad, why bother with college entrance exams? Let the kids go where they want, regardless of ability? If there is any reason that public school education is suffering, its because of left of center theories implemented by educrats. I’m also tired of hearing bloggers complain about how horrible and lazy kids are today and how they should be getting up at the crack of dawn and returning home around 5:00, with little or no time for extra-curricular activities, never mind homework, dinner or sleep. When I went to school I didn’t have to be at school until 8:45 and I got out at 3:00 (unless I had an after school athletic activity)- and I turned out just fine thank you very much! Sure some kids are worse than others, but lets not damn the whole bunch of them.

By Mr. W

June 8, 2005 05:24 PM | Link to this

Hey Another Teacher: I totally agree about everything you have said. That is the environment I am teaching in going into my second year. After all, I have the same 10 and 11th grades, teach English, and get the same complaints from my students. Glad to know someone else does not accept cell phones, Ipods, and other stuff in class. Funny to me how students can use them, but cant read the manual. I will never understand that. I put kids out all the time because I have to teach those that want it. I even told them, if you dont want to be here, dont come and let me fail you that way. Its much easier for me to work with those who want better. Finally, yes, they do not do homework here in Atlanta. I do not understand it why, but they dont. IF the primary grades did require it consistently, then there would be no problems later on, but from my understanding, there is not much structure and order for the middle grades.

By Dan

June 9, 2005 08:35 AM | Link to this

I blows my mind that kids actually argue for the “right” to use phones and ipods in class.

By DB

June 9, 2005 10:25 AM | Link to this

abc: I did move to a better, more prosperous place. It’s called private school. And I still do have concern for ALL students. With my many years of teaching, I realized one thing. You are performing a disservice to a all students if you allow a disruptive, disrespectful kid ruin it for the rest, and especially to the disruptive one. Allowing that kid to learn that he/she can behave in any way he/she sees fit and still have a chance to attend school, you’re instilling in that kid that he/she has to answer to no one. And that’s why we have the society we have today. I’m not talking about kicking every kid out that misbehaves. I’m talking about kicking out kids who have had chance upon chance to improve and haven’t. You are not teaching them anything about life by allowing them to continue to proceed. And that is the worst thing you can do for a kid. We wonder why people end up going to jobs and shooting them up after they get fired for NOT WORKING. We instill in them they get paid(good grades) for nothing and that they have all the rights no matter what they do. The laws are written so that the inmates run the asylum. That is not how life works after school as we all know! I’m tired of judges who slam the gavel and tell criminals to go back to school everytime they violate probation. Send them to jail; give them a real consequence instead of making them go to school and ruin it for everyone else. Or at least set up a school system that’s more like boot camp that teaches them how to act civil when there are no other options. The most important thing is to separate them from their deadbeat parents and friends that support the behavior. There are kids that are worse than you can imagine, and the only thing that’s going to teach them anything is a jail cell or some hard core program where they are not in control and are taken away. Do you want those kids in school with your kids in the Midwest where you send them? Well, they are in the classroom with them, and it’s probably fewer than you would find here, but it happens everywhere. Has anyone heard of the following places? All of these places have had school shootings. Only two weren’t deadly. It’s spread all across the U.S.

Littleton, CO Jonesboro, AR HATTIESBURG, MS Deming, NM Springfield, OR Conyers, GA Mount Morris, MI Moses Lake, WA Bethel, AK West Paducah, KY Stamps, AR Fayetteville, TN Richmond, VA Fort Gibson, OK Savannah, Ga Lake Worth, Fl New Orleans, La Baltimore, Md Santee, Ca Williamsport, Pa Granite Hills, Ca Gary, IN Caro, Mi New York, NY New Orleans, La(Again) Red Lake, MN Cold Spring, MN

Kids these days think they can do anything and get away with it. We had a close call at Elmira Southside High School with my former student, Jeremy Getman. How many other acts of violence have there been that were just close calls? They’re numerous to say the least. If you start to kick these kids out and allow the education process to proceed, the kids on the bubble will probably decide to change their conduct for the better, and then the real learning takes place because before you know it, those terrible teachers you love to bash now become excellent, passionate teachers because they can actually teach, and the students there actually want to learn. And the kids that did these things supposedly because they were bullied(just another instance of blaming everyone else) won’t have to worry about bullies if we kick out the severe behavioral problem children. And even some of the kids that are kicked out will come back the next year with a serious attitude adjustment if they have any sense. That’s what it’s all about. Eventually, you’ll have a society that realizes education is important, or at least you’ll have a more civil society because there are behavioral expectations firmly in place.

Back to the blog. When discipline enters the school once again, these test scores will be great. And a failing test score is great because it shows the kid you fail if you don’t work. So work harder and try again. However, putting too much on tests can become dangerous. Then you get NCLB, which equals NPLH(No Principal Left Honest). I have seen Principals changing answers on tests to make their school look better! She was fired to say the least, but most get away with it. It happens all over. The first thing we need to do is put the power back into the school. When a terrible enabler of a parent comes in and threatens to sue, the admin needs to say, GO AHEAD, and good luck! As long as the teacher/admin has covered his/her @ss, actually losing a lawsuit is unlikely. Believe me, if teachers have learned anything in the past 20 years, it’s how to cover the back side. But administrators just don’t want to even think about it for having bad publicity. But if all did that, the number of threats of the almighty lawsuit would quickly diminish. If you don’t like it here, send your child somewhere else. You can only do this by changing the laws. As long as society keeps the schools in line, there’s nothing wrong with holding your ground and dictating the way things are. It’s so much better for kids in that it is similar to real life when you have a boss. Now, school is nothing more than a shelter from real life, and we hurting our kids because of it. Eventually, all schools will think this way, and the bad parents and bad kids will lose the power to ruin it for everyone else.

By DB

June 9, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this

Another Teacher: Try private school before quitting for good! You will be amazed how good it is when you once again have total control, and then you can see the kids improve because you’re actually getting somewhere in class. You’ll also be respected by parents.

By Amazed (Independent Woman)

June 9, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this

DB,

I’m glad you decided to teach private school. A teacher who believes that a child who does not want to learn, should be given the opportunity to quit school and get a job, is not the kind of teacher I would want at any school. They are only children and can not adequately decide what is good for their future. I know that you have many valid reasons to feel the way that you do, but it sounds truly awful to see it in an education blog.

I don’t believe that every child should go to college. But, without at least a highschool education, we will only need more social programs and jails. What will happen to the children they produce, who will one day start school. Somewhere the cycle has to end. I would prefer it starts with the children today and not 3 generations from now.

Maybe next time, you will suggest that they try an alternative school. The one thing I can say about private schools, is that all the bad things that take place there remains “PRIVATE”. You know what I’m talking about……….

By DB

June 9, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this

Amazed: That’s exactly why I quit public school; because it’s a nonsensical, bureaucratic, fingerpointing, resource-wasting system for prolonging immaturity in our youth. In public schools, most kids don’t mature much beyond Kindergarten, and they only get better at manipulating the system as they grow older. I did suggest an alternative school or system, but maybe you didn’t read that. I think the military is a great option, and they should decrease the age at which you can enter. And many include non-college programs to make kids succeed at many occupations. Jails would not increase in number; they would probably decrease in number because we wouldn’t systematically create delinquents who think the world revolves around them. You give them the chance to change their ways for the better, and you kick the TERRIBLE ones out. As for the quiet problems in private school. I completely disagree, especially since I’m on the board at my school that decides who gets booted. I never said there were NO problems in private school, but the small numbers are completely manageable. And when a kid gets kicked out 2 weeks before graduation for the use of drugs, let me tell you, they learn something about life. The problems are less than 1% of students, and they are swiftly(yes, quietly) dealt with and booted. Then they go to a public school or a less rigid private school where they can continue that behavior without consequence. There are lot more problems in public school, and they are dealt with even more quietly for fear of the almighty lawsuit.

Your version of the “precious children” is getting too old in this society to be honest with you. No Child Left Behind; we’re leaving all of them behind by allowing such crap to take place. The more we make excuses instead of showing them firm expectations and sticking to them, the more delinquents we create. Therefore, I would guess that the system you defend is the cause of the increases in the number of jails and social programs that has taken place for the past 30 or 40 years, exponentially I might add. This fluffy, save the children, crap has got to stop. You save the children by showing them they get consequences for their actions. I’d rather have things take 3 generations(which it wouldn’t if we started right away) to improve than to deal with this “It’s not my fault!” culture for the next 50 years.

Yes, I feel sorry for our children, but that’s not a reason to create more and more programs that cater to those that don’t even care. What about the kids who care and put in their best. They are consistently ignored because most resources go into CYA programs for the schools and the coddling of the delinquents. Sure, feel sorry for them, but firmly show them what they need to do to make their lives better. Believe me, I have changed many delinquents into productive members of society, but most people just don’t have enough energy to deal with it for years and years. I had to make a decision between my kids and the public as I was losing my own kids because I cared too much. You find with experience that results are much better when you firmly point their lives in the right direction. They learn fast that they can break the pattern, and the confidence from the sense of accomplishments is immense. Then they improve from there on out. Besides, delinquency starts small in elementary school when they can have tantrums with no consequences and grows with time. I once saw a sixth grader trash a whole office, and the principal beside me just said to let him go and he’ll eventually feel better. What the heck? By the time many kids that were on the fence reach high school, they’re usually close to being unable to turn things around.

Don’t underestimate the ability of children to learn how to behave at very young. The precious children get away with whatever the adults around them allow. My kids’ friends tell their mom to f-off when she tells them anything. When they play in my yard, they’re little angels because I set limits and tell them they’ll leave as soon as they act unruly. There’s no reason school can be the same as my yard.

Behind every misbehaving kid, there’s a mother or a father rolling their eyes saying, “They’re just kids…” Well, those kids only grow into bigger ones.

Besides, it’s amazing the freedom and independence you can give to a well-adapted four-year-old. Now that’s teaching!

By DB

June 9, 2005 12:43 PM | Link to this

Amazed: I forgot one other point. All these alternative programs and what not will start to decrease in numbers when kids realize they have to behave in school. It’s that simple. 15 years ago, when I was in high school, the only alternative program they had was kids polishing the brass in the hallways after school with a toothbrush. That has long since been eradicated by laws, but in my school(public in WNY), you behaved, teachers taught, and children learned.

By DB

June 9, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this

Another point: Where I went to school, people left their doors to their houses unlocked and their cars unlocked with the keys in the ignition overnight. So the whole argument against kicking bad kids out and society spiralling downward is not so plausible. Sure, it was a small town, but now since the advent of coddling, my family members that still live there now lock their doors.

By DB

June 9, 2005 12:54 PM | Link to this

Ok, guys, I’m done with the preaching. Sorry!

By Sylvia

June 9, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this

Getting back to the core subject of this blog - a teacher’s frustration, you teachers may want to demand that they re-institute “tracking” in the schools. An article in todays’ Telegraph U.K. states exactly what I said yesterday: MAINSTREAMING IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER FAILURE AND HAS HURT THE VERY STUDENTS IT WAS SUPPOSED TO HELP. (See news.telegraph.co.uk “Wornock U-Turn on Special School”). Who is Warnock? The very person who pushed this asinine p.c. concept on the education establishment in the 1970s. So here we are 35 years later and we’ve wasted another generation all in an attempt to make people FEEL better. Teachers will have a better chance of success and a fair judgement of their abilities if children are placed in classes (or special schools in the extreme) according to their ability. This is one reason that private schools do better - you usually have to take an exam to be admitted in the first place.

By DB

June 9, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this

Yes, tracking is definitely the best if properly managed. We lost tracking a long time ago when some parents wouldn’t accept that their kids weren’t the top of the class and mabye couldn’t handle AP Biology or AP Physics. When most kids do their best, tracking is easy. When you have a brilliant kid who does little or nothing and gets a D in biology and wants to go to AP Biology, there’s where the problem lies. The parents who made this lazy kid then argue he’s brilliant. However, he will probably continue his lazy ways and take the place of a kid who will work hard. Tracking takes place in Private Schools, College, and real life. It’s beyond me why it’s not put back into public schools. I remember a nephew recently complaining that his class was so boring because they have to spoon feed the not so brilliant. Well, that’s what you get when you have this “one size fits all attitude”. The achievers are brought down and held back and the not so gifted are overwhelmed, and no one wins. The not so gifted should be put in an appropriate class with others at the same level, so they all can catch up and exercise the brain. And the gifted should be in the same situation. This is in New York where “everyone” is going to college, and everyone is at the same level. Ha. Ha. No wonder the Regents(year-end tests) tests have been dumbed downed so much. It’s just a matter that tracking takes a lot more effort and a lot more of telling parents what they don’t want to hear, and public education has been avoiding that for the past 20 years because no one has any spine. It’s now backfiring as we speak. If my kids aren’t gifted later on in high school, I will be more than happy to hear a non-sugar-coated statement saying my kid should be in algebra instead of calculus. But very few parents can deal with the truth. And the fear of that by schools makes them make a lot of mistakes in tracking. My theory is to try the hardest to track them. When a loud parent wants his/her kid in AP Physics, let them. But when mom and dad complain when Johnny has a constant D, it is time to say the proverbial, “I told you so!” Now too bad. Johnny is going to have to live with a D!

By DB

June 9, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

Also, I think tracking in the past was more of a one-size thing where a kid was in the college track or non-college track for all classes. I think if we reinstitue tracking, it should be flexible where you can have a kid in say upper level math track and normal english. Or lets say upper level science track and normal level everything else. That would be more like real life including college and industry. Let kids focus on their strengths and interests and get a basic education on things in which they aren’t so interested. That will bring the best out of many.

By Gail

June 9, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this

So with this tracking concept, are you talking about advanced students or special ed students? As the parent of a child who was in special ed early and has a learning disability, this idea of shunting the slower kids to the side is scary.

When I was in school, “Special Ed” was a separate classroom from which no one ever escaped. It didn’t matter what your disability was; physical, mental, behavioral, learning were all dumped in together. Sure, that’s been 30+ years ago, but one thing I can see from the CRCT scores is that in some places, this has still been happening, if not physically, then at least psychologically.

At least the CRCT is now forcing some schools to look at how they are serving their special education students and improving the teaching those students receive. Even though my 3rd grader with a learning disability passed the CRCT, gets pretty good grades and is a smart kid, I won’t forget that if he’d been born 30 years ago, he would have been “tracked” into special ed and never gotten into a regular classroom.

By Just a Mom

June 10, 2005 09:41 AM | Link to this

The question for this blog was ‘Does the system judge teachers unfairly?’ I have a question for all of you teachers; can you have a real dialogue with your administrators? Can you come individually or as a group with all of the problems laid out in this blog and sit down and solve problems with your assistant principal or principal? I have found from all the teachers I have known through the years, that aside from their team teachers in elementary or middle school or their department teachers in high school, that teachers do not or cannot voice their complaints to the administration. If they dare to speak up they are basically told to follow the curriculum, policy, or rules. If they dare to speak up too often they suffer consequences like transfer, or loss of seniority in their department. It has been my observation that teachers are generally not treated with respect by the administration. In my humble opinion the principals and administrations act more like wardens supervising guards (teachers) who have their hands tied in dealing with the inmates (students). These are my observations in Gwinnett County. What is happening with you teachers in other systmes?

By efg

June 10, 2005 10:07 AM | Link to this

Several comments from a teacher: No we can’t talk to administrators. They don’t listen and they are too busy making things look good on paper (numbers). What do you think regular ed. kids might learn if they are in a class of 28, eight of them various levels of special ed., all needing special modifications? Special Ed. advocates and parents should get a clue. There are no modifications in the world of work. If you don’t do the job, you don’t get to stay, and you don’t get paid. Of the regular ed. students that graduate from my high school very few are ready for college or post-secondary school. I have seen students turn in final projects in core academic classes that would not pass if really graded, but the teachers are pressured by the administartors to pass them to make it look good on paper. Deadlines are not deadlines. Administrators do not allow teachers to enforce deadlines. High school students go to post-secondary schools with the idea that a paper isn’t really due until the last day of class. Students are not being prepared for the real world. The problems in education are numerous. There are lots of positive reasons to track students.

By efg

June 10, 2005 10:17 AM | Link to this

Just to clarify. I am referring to modifications like having test read to the student. Having other students take notes for the special ed. students. Extra time for test. Special types of test. Not making them read aloud. Not making them answer questions in class. Always letting them work with others. These types of modifications don’t take place in the world of work. I have also seen physically handicapped students placed in laboratory classes where they could obviously not perform the task assigned. This is just setting them up to fail. They could never work at a job where they could not perform the task assigned. Why should we do this to them in school. Let’s get real.

By DB

June 10, 2005 10:47 AM | Link to this

Gail: I’m not sure where you got the idea that tracking would shunt slower kids aside. I simply stated lower kids should be in classes with kids with the same abilities. And if tracking is properly managed, you won’t get LD kids with higher ability into lower classes; they’ll be up there with the rest. The teachers will know the difference. And at my school, teachers take test scores(I usually ignore those) and a year of knowing them to determine which class each student takes the next year. I think the whole special ed and LD thing is a totally unproductive system, and most schools keep kids in with those ridiculous labels in those rooms. The worst thing you can do is label a kid or give them an excuse to expect less from themselves! That whole system is completely wrong. LD kids are not disabled. They simply need to learn how to learn. I honestly think all that psychobabble came from a culture where parents wanted a reason why their kid isn’t learning this or that and wouldn’t accept that their kid may be less disciplined than most and may have missed the basics in the first few years and got behind. And most LD kids are misdiagnosed simply because they don’t try or they can’t sit still. I’m not saying that’s your kid because there are a FEW kids that are truly deficient(but not disabled as they would label them); I’m just saying, other than the few true LD kids, most of them are from overprotective parents that don’t instill responsibility and discipline into their kids and then run to the psychologists when things aren’t going well. Then we get all these medicated kids and kids put into these rooms they never escape, which is another sad topic altogether. What ever happened to working through problems? As a teacher, you can tell the difference between diagnosed lazy kids and truly LD kids. I even hate the word diagnosed. I’m one of the most ADD persons on Earth, and I ended up fine(At least I think I did.) with a 3.7 GPA double majoring in Biology and Chemistry(Pre-med). I simply didn’t care in school and acted out because my parents were idiots, and the school didn’t expect much of me. They set behavior expectations, but I knew the limits and was right at them all the time. I always had to be doing something, and sitting in a chair listening to stuff that could be learned in five minutes drove me crazy. That’s where many of these “LD” kids are. I think if anything, they could learn in two minutes what most kids take a period, but they just learn in a different way. I do agree with you that if I was diagnosed, put on medication, or put in a special room(they tried) only to stay there, I would be totally different today. Sure, there are kids that are truly “learning deficient”, but the numbers today are simply higher than they should be. A lot of this diagnosis is gives a lot of psychologists jobs if you know what I mean, and it makes a lot of parents happy. Then again like the rest of public ed, that ruins it for the truly LD. The kids get referred to the psychos from teachers when they can’t sit still or don’t listen to directions well. I think that’s normal in some kids, and the school should work on teaching them, through discipline, how to sit still and pay attention or how to learn in a different way or learn to learn in the accepted way. Or they should put them with a more rigid teachers. Some teachers I sat down and listened because I was scared to death not to. And you know what? That was in the science and math classes! I ended up liking those topics because I was held to high expectations(don’t know if that’s maybe just a coincidental correlation). This culture of “I just can’t do this.” has to stop. Anyway, here’s how it goes at most good schools and mine. LD kids are tracked into mainstream classes of the proper level, and they attend them just like any other kid. They have one period per day where they go to a special teacher. They get more time on tests and maybe printed out notes depending on their specific problems. They are showed how to figure things out and learn their own way(empowering). These kids end up some of my best students because they learned long ago to work hard, and that usually pays off in my class because I teach in many different ways(or I get bored). And by the time they are seniors, most of them have overcome their learning disabilities(hate that word) and no longer need special attention. I remember a great friend I had growing up. He sat next to me in science class and always scored 50’s on tests because he simply didn’t care and acted like a moron most the time. He wasn’t a genius, but he could do fine if he wanted to. I once told him he could get an A if he wanted to. And he said, no I’m LD(he was diagnosed by the local witch doctor). So I bet him $20 bucks that if I helped him study, he could score an A. Well, he studied with me and scored a 96 on the next test, this is without him even paying attention or changing his classroom habits mind you. Then one day when we were hanging out we went to his house. His mom chewed me out for helping him study to get an A. She said he was LD and that it’s terrible for me to make him think he can do well. I couldn’t believe what I heard. He was later put in a special ed program, and his nickname from the kids became “sped”, which is sad. He’s my best friend today, but I only get to see him once every few years. He’s doing well but never had the confidence to do his best and go to college because of that stupid mother and stupid school. He was put into that category simply because he misbehaved. Keep in mind that he taught himself how to become a mechanic on his own time, and that’s what he does. He’s a great mechanic, and he can even handle all the electronics, computers and whatnot of today’s cars. But he gets paid a terrible wage because he has no degrees because he was totally turned off by school.

By DB

June 10, 2005 11:00 AM | Link to this

Just a Mom: Here’s my opinion on your question. Judging teachers on the test results of their kids is ridiculous until every kid is putting in a lot of effort. I’ve seen some great teachers fired up in NY simply because they ha d ow Regents test scores. They didn’t take into consideration they were given at-risk kids, most on probation. That’s where you get when you depend solely on numbers. It’s just another reason for teachers to quit because everyone expects much more and more out of them every day. If my son or daughter fails these extremely easy tests, I blame no one but my kids and myself. I just don’t understand the culture. When I was a kid and failed something(never failed a course or end of year test), I always knew it was my fault for not doing my best, and my parents would cut off all pleasures in life until I passed. If people want to blame someone other than themselves for low test scores, they should blame the students in class that systematically disrupt the learning process and stress teachers out and make them no longer care, and they should blame society and administrators for taking the authority from teachers making them unable to appropriately deal with the problems in the classroom. But my problem is this. These tests are a joke. It’s not like it’s the MCAT. People need to quit whining and start making their kids behave, study, and become accountable for themselves. Kids graduate high school and have no skills to deal with self-accountability at college or at their jobs.

By DB

June 10, 2005 11:21 AM | Link to this

efg: Those two postings couldn’t be better put! I just hope people read them and realize what’s really going on! For the extreme cases, put them in classes that they can handle. Imagine an air-traffic controller asking for extended time on his tasks! There’s nothing wrong with teaching a kid how to become a great mechanic or cook. The real problem is when teachers are force to grade them more easily and tell them they can become a rocket scientist. And we wonder why so many kids are unhappy after graduating high school when they find out they’ve been lied to all these years and they expect to become a doctor or whatever, when they simply can’t. The attempt to boost self-esteem actually robs them from it when they get to real life. School needs to be more like real life!

Also, for those of you against testing, I ask you this. Would you like to have a doctor that never passed his boards or a doctor who couldn’t go to the oral/hands on testing each year and pass it in order to keep his/her license? Would you like to fly in a jet where the pilots took no tests to make sure they are at a certain minimum level? Would you rather take your car to and ASE certified mechanic who will diagnose it properly, or would you rather take it to a backwoods mechanic who never took any formal training? Do you see a pattern?

By efg

June 10, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this

Let’s not forget that the parents of special education students get a check for their disabled children???? Just a little incentive to keep them in special ed. I see many kids that are labeled learning disabled that were just cognitively neglected as infants and toddlers. These kids are tested and placed in special ed. They never learn to read. They are socially promoted. They end up with a special ed. diploma that equals zero. Why aren’t these kids learning to read and write? They are being neglected by their parents and now by the educational system.

By Just a Mom

June 10, 2005 11:40 AM | Link to this

DB, I agree with you that standardized testing is a joke. The teachers waste time teaching to the test instead of teaching kids the basics of learning. The kids get stressed over the tests and some kids will always test well and others never will, so the tests are not measuring collective knowledge, just how well some kids can take a test. The school systems don’t use test results to remediate for individual students, they just test for the publishable statistics, so that the clueless administrators can compete for slaps on the back and atta-boys.

I am sick of the standardization of education that aims to turn out standard little student widget products. Who ever puts their thinking cap on anymore? Thinking is a lost art in education today.

I agree with you that if kids don’t want to learn by the time they are in high school and are disruptive, disinterested or absent, then they should be turned out to get a day laborer job, or fast food counter job (I hate fast food, so I won’t have to suffer their order screw ups and inability to make change.)

Schools wrongly focus on zero tolerance for a few discipline behaviors, but ignore and excuse the pervasive disrespect that many students show for learning and for their teachers. I think zero tolerance should target the slackers. And don’t let the doors hit them on their tattooed backsides as they leave. School is a privilege, not a right.

By efg

June 10, 2005 11:44 AM | Link to this

To Robin: You posted earlier that you son went to special ed. classes for reading. You also said that some of his teachers said he should be in special ed. for his other classes too. You were in disagreement with them. Why? If you can’t read then you can’t read math problems. I agree with the teachers. We need to have the same expectations of all kids in our classes. You also stated that your kid is on the Honor Roll, but that he did not pass the CRCT. This is the problem with education today. We are giving kids false hope in our public schools only to have them find out through standardized testing that they aren’t really making the grade. This is the reason we need standardized testing. We need it to weed out those that can from those that cannot. Sorry, but your kid should not be on Honor Roll if he can’t pass the CRCT. You have been fed a load of crap.

By efg

June 10, 2005 12:00 PM | Link to this

Just a Mom, DB is not against standardized testing. Read DB’s post again. The point was made that testing is just getting the student ready for the real world which is full of test and certifications that people must pass in order to be employed in certain occupations. Now that’s reading comprehension.

By DB

June 10, 2005 12:08 PM | Link to this

Just a Mom: I understand your concerns about standardized tests, but kids have to learn to test, plain and simple. If you can’t take a test, you might as well forget about college. And college does teach well. It’s our only hope. Standardized tests are good if they’re written well and graded fairly. What you’re saying is we teachers shouldn’t even test in the classroom if standardized testing is bad. If the curriculum is good, and the standardized test is good, I have no problem with kids demonstrating MINIMUM competence with the test. And it’s a good way to compare schools(if done honestly) and set goals. If you teach to the curriculum well, the test should be passed by most kids. However, I think most tests are terrible with exeption to the MCAT and GRE’s. And I think most curricula promote a broad range of topic with no depth and critical thinking. It is changing though. Also, the zero tolerance is just political thing. It’s when the pendulum swings too far the in the right direction. If things were the they they were supposed to be, zero tolerance wouldn’t be needed. You just need consistent, firm expectations throughout the U.S., and zero tolerance wouldn’t be needed. Zero tolerance just ends up kicking even good kids out when they made a simple mistake. A three strike rule may be more appropriate.

By Gail

June 10, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this

DB:
I agree with some of what you had to say. I don’t think the system we have now for learning disabled kids is the best, but since I can’t stop my kid from growing until it’s figured out, I have to work with what’s happening now.

The labeling for special ed kids is bad from a social aspect. Kids get picked on. This is what I was talking about in my childhood experience. My problem now is the labeling from the teachers. Nearly all of my kid’s teachers have been great, but last year’s teacher referred to the kids who spent time with the special ed teacher for part of the day as her “specials”, which she thought was supposed to be some endearing term. (She was blasted by another parent before I had a chance.) This same teacher was frequently unnerved, unwilling, unable (take your pick) to deal with my kid on an individual level in terms of his learning style. I realize this is an “extra” thing for teachers to do, but it is their job. And I’m not talking about the extreme examples of modified learning environment efg described in his/her post.

I don’t know anything about the so-called behavioral problem disability. I think that kids who don’t know how to act most of the time shouldn’t be in a regular classroom until they learn how to behave. Whether it’s “their fault” or not, they keep other kids from learning. One of the things that has saved my kid is good behavior. We had an OT try to blame our kid’s supposed poor behavior for her inability to do her job. The rest of the staff in that meeting (teachers, PT, etc) glared her down for that remark because they were all working with the same kid. Some teachers may complain about the LD kids hindering them, but some are using it to explain away their own inadequacies.

efg: What is this so-called check I’m supposedly getting because my kid is LD? And by the way, lay off Robin and her kid. Just because a kid didn’t pass the CRCT doesn’t mean he can’t work hard for good grades.

By Gail

June 10, 2005 12:43 PM | Link to this

These extreme examples about how kids are being fed a load of crap about their future possibilities in the work environment need to stop. Accommodations in the work place are made all the time. Have you ever seen a worker in a wheelchair? Or with a walker? Managers accomodate workers’ individual idiosyncracies all the time. For instance, one worker works better in the morning, so s/he comes in early. Another telecommutes because of some issue or another. Accommodations are made for workers who have children, other jobs, etc.

While every job is not conducive to special circumstances, plenty are in today’s world. And the ones for which you need a college degree especially. If I look around my office, I have no idea what kinds of grades my co-workers got in elementary or high school. Or even college. A person does not have to be hindered in work because of what happened in 12 or even 16 years of schooling.

By Just a Mom

June 10, 2005 12:49 PM | Link to this

DB, My bad for my interpretation of your statement that ‘these tests are a joke.’ I took you literally that the CRCT and most other standardized tests are a joke, and I stand by my observation that teachers (mainly in elementary and middle school) take too much time teaching to the facts that will be on the test. Teachers not allowed enough time to teach the essential skills of reading and writing and critical thinking all of which are needed for the next step which is learning the facts in whatever subject they are teaching.

For many kids these tests are ‘a joke,’ ridiculously easy because they have been taught well and have acquired proficiency in the basics, and can read and think and reason quickly. But for many kids the test instrument or format fails to assess what they know, no matter how smart they are, because they cannot read fast enough, can’t comprehend, don’t have the vocabulary, and so can’t answer questions about what they read. Others have been failed by school systems that insist on passing failing readers along to the next grade. From first to third grade you ‘learn to read,’ and from third grade on you ‘read to learn.’ If kids have not learned to read well by third grade, they likely will never catch up.

I am not saying that assessments are not needed, but the present glut of standardized tests are all WRONG for elementary and middle school kids. Assessment tests for kids should not be the same the SAT, GRE, MCAT, or LSAT, which require good reading and thinking skills, along with a large vocabulary and a wide body of factual knowledge. (FYI I took all but the MCAT and did well.)

If you look back to my first post a couple days ago I said that testing should be limited to the ITBS and a graduation test, because the ITBS tests how well kids think and figure things out and is not as fact based as the CRCT. Kids need to be tested on how well they read a passage, understand it and interpret what the questions want, and NOT to be tested on how fast they can regurgitate a list of facts.

Let the teachers give students a sound foundation in the basics and all other learning will follow.

By efg

June 10, 2005 12:50 PM | Link to this

Kids that are not really making the grade should not be passed along or receive Honor Roll standing. I was just implying that Robin’s kid was only making Honor Roll because he was not being graded the same as regular ed. kids. I don’t agree with inflating their egos only to have them deflated later when they realize they can’t pass in the real world. We are giving them false hope. As a teacher it is sometimes a bit difficult to deal with your child and others on an individual basis when you have 28 students, eight of them special needs (each with a different IEP w/different modifications). If you would like to have your child helped on an individual basis then hire a tutor. Regular ed. kids are being discriminated against because they are not getting the individual attention that special ed. students getting. Like I said, there are lots of postive aspects to tracking ability levels. Regular ed. students have been left out.

By efg

June 10, 2005 12:55 PM | Link to this

Gail, I had one special ed. student tell me that she was going to technical college to become a doctor. This student graduated from high school with a special ed. diploma. She had never taken a real test or received a real grade in school, yet she was convinced that she would be a doctor after going to technical college. Give me a break. This kid was never told what her education had prepared her for. These children are being fed a load of crap.

By Just a Mom

June 10, 2005 01:02 PM | Link to this

DB, I don’t like ‘zero tolerance’ policies as they don’t reflect what usually happens out in society where due process, intent, and totality of circumstances are usually considered. I was using ‘zero tolerance’ as an example of the obsessive nature of schools in some areas of discipline compared to the blind eye they turn to the larger problem of disrespect by students.

By Gail

June 10, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this

If regular ed kids don’t need special help, what are they missing? Special help that they don’t need?

My kid has had a lot of extra help from people away from school. I realize this makes a huge difference for school success. Unfortunately, a tutor can’t show up at test time to NOT read the test to my kid (auditory processing LD). Or to repeat the instructions for an assignment in a different way.

In a perfect world, I expect a good teacher to give every student individualized attention based on that student’s needs, personality and ability. I have seen several good teachers do this. Good parents do this also. I don’t treat my kids the same at home because they are NOT the same.

There are enough things in life that require that we are all treated like numbers. Shouldn’t childhood be a time when kids can learn to appreciate their own special and unique gifts and have them appreciated by the people that mean the most to them? Including teachers?

By Gail

June 10, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this

efg:

I believe in preparing my kids for reality. I probably wouldn’t have told me kid to expect that if s/he were my child. However, wasn’t Einstein told he was special ed? In fact, scientists now say that Einstein had an abnormal brain which may have caused him to be a genius. Imagine how telling a school kid he has an abnormal brain would be perceived. Just food for thought.

By Just a Mom

June 10, 2005 01:15 PM | Link to this

efg, Jeewhiz thanks for the snide correction. Hope you don’t use that sarcasm with your students. That’s what I comprehend from your comment.

By efg

June 10, 2005 01:16 PM | Link to this

Gail, I was not referring to the student with a physical handicap that can do everything intellectually that a regular ed. student can do. I am referring to those LD students. Many of the LD students I work with never learn to read. All of their school work is MODIFIED so they can attend class with regular ed. students and make equal grades (yeah right!) These kids are given passing grades, but do not take the high school graduation test. If they do take the test it is MODIFIED for them. They receive a diploma. They get a job and the employer finds out that this person cannot read directions. This person gets FIRED because he or she could not complete an assigned task. Should we instead pay him the full salary and hire someone to read the directions to him? The person can’t understand why the employer didn’t read the directions for him. What happened to all of those MODIFICATIONS? This is really happening to our students. It is so sad that we are not preparing them. You should not be able to graduate until you can really pass the test by reading and taking it by yourself.

By Just a Mom

June 10, 2005 01:22 PM | Link to this

Gail, You are right, there are very bright kids, maybe geniuses hiding in the nonconforming students in our schools. But the schools want uniformity of product, and they don’t want to explore and develop the individual academic or creative potential in our nonconforming children.

By DB

June 10, 2005 01:28 PM | Link to this

As for accomodations at work, there aren’t many. It’s more like people in wheelchairs don’t apply for jobs that require, let’s say, walking and heavy lifting. But in our “One size fits all.” school system, we keep telling “kids in wheelchairs”(as a model) that they can run the 100m dash and win the olympics. That’s what has to stop. Put them in a track for them to become lawyers, scientists, secretaries, programmers, etc. so they can lead productive lives. Don’t take the wheelchair example literally! I mean if a kid can’t read, teach them to read, and then find out their strengths, and put them into a track that develops those strengths. If it’s painting or art, put them in a program to make ads for billboards or paint cars. Kids need to be taught life skills, too, how to balance checkbooks, balance a budget, stay within means, treat people respectfully, interview for jobs, work at jobs, how not to get in credit card debt, how to live a productive life, and how hard work always pays off. And most of all, they need to be taught that cheating, lying, and being disruptive or disrespectful never pays off. We’re teaching the opposites. For the kids who have already been taught that by their parents, they are just that much ahead. And for the slower kids, promote work ethic in doing simple tasks and work on making things more and more complicated as they develop. Don’t expect them to jump straight into physics.

Just a Mom: If a kid can’t read, and can’t understand tests, then the kid should not be promoted, or maybe the kids should be in another program altogether. However, I knew many kids that couldn’t do just as you’re stating(read, write, etc.), but with a lot of work, they eventually rose to the occasion and passed the tests. And preparing for the tests was what actually taught them to suck it up. How does reading a test to a kid(which we sometimes have to do) improve their ability to read a test? That’s what I’m talking about. It’s really a matter of letting them do it on their own. The more you do for them, the less they learn. The more they do for themselves, the more they learn. Don’t feel sorry for them because they can’t read. Teach them to read so they can pass the test. Just hold realistic goals that are always challenging them to better themselves. Yes, tests may be factual based in the lower grades(I hate that!), but all the standardized tests I’ve ever given or taken assume you know the factual stuff and can apply through critical thinking. In NY I only had standardized tests in middle and high school. Who cares what year the Vietnam war ended, what matters is learning why were there, and what effect it had on the world. The factual stuff you mention on tests is just a result of the dumbing-down of America due to the self-esteem age. I teach ninth-graders and seniors. When the freshmen come from Middle School they think they can memorize everything and ace tests. That’s why they all fail the first few weeks. I tell them it’s time to think. They perservere, and by the time they end the ninth grade, they are ready for college. It’s all about holding to expectations. That’s where real life skills comes into play. And don’t even let them take those CRCT tests until they are ready. Now, they take the test, they fail it, and they move to the next level anyway only to get less educated because they never addressed the problems that made them fail in the first place.

Anyway, I’m done. Good luck with the blog, and good luck with getting your kids educated. I have things to do.

I guess my whole point is that the system needs to hold the tests as a goal, and reaching the goal is the whole point that makes it a life-like experience. I’m all for it as long as the tests are well thought out.

If you need any specific advise or want to harass me, you can email me at foobs@bellsouth.net . All these general situations are tough to deal with when you don’t know the real facts. I’m all for helping people out.

By efg

June 10, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this

Gail,

Who will read the test or directions to your adult child one day when he/she is working at a real job? Will your child’s boss give the directions three different ways to satisfy all of his/her employees modifications. I don’t think so. If we don’t want them labeled, why do we test them. If you don’t want a kid labeled then don’t test him and diagnose him with a disability. You and your child’s school diagnosed your child with disability. You have allowed your child to be told he has an “abnormal brain”. Now, you want to the rest of us to modify all of his assignments within the same class as students whose work is not modified. While doing all of these modifications don’t dare let him know that he is different. Please think about what we are doing to our children.

My parents once received notification from the school that they wanted to test my sister for special ed. (learning disability) because she wasn’t doing well in school. You would not believe how much my parents fought this process. My sister was taken out of the public school system and placed in private school. She went on to graduate from high school a year early after making an extremely high score on the SAT. She made excellent grades in college and graduate school. She did not receive any special or extra help. All this from a kid who would have been labeled “special” by her school system if her parents had allowed it. Thank goodness my parents saw through the special ed. system

By efg

June 10, 2005 01:43 PM | Link to this

DB,

Thanks for your comments. As an educator I understand your feelings. Your students are lucky to have someone expect so much of them.

By DB

June 10, 2005 01:45 PM | Link to this

Gail: Your notion that childhood is for them to learn the are unique and special can take many meanings. Well, yes, and no. Childhood years are for learning how to behave and put in effort like everyone else. When all kids are behaving, you can then give them the true attention they need. Telling a little brat or lazy kid is special is our exact problem, or giving a kid lower expectations because he or she has this or that problem at home, add, etc. is for the birds. I know that’s not what you mean, but that’s what it has become. It makes excuses and promotes mediocrity. Now the unique kids are the ones that behave and try their hardest. Telling a kid he or she is special because he or she puts in full effort and abides by the rules and code of conduct is the key. Kids feel more special when they are treated the same as the kids around them(as a group), and they’re not ignored. In fact, that is usually the reason why kids misbehave in the first place, because they’re not getting enough attention at home. Giving “your special” treatment to kids is needed, but at the same time, they need to realize that they’re in a class of 30, and others need the same attention. Otherwise, you create a self-centered, discourteous bunch of kids. Kids need to learn to survive without being given a lot of attention. Enough individual attention should be provided by the parents if you ask me. Sure, give each kid time here and there, but kids must learn to learn as a group.

By Just a Mom

June 10, 2005 01:50 PM | Link to this

DB, I feel that kids should be challenged, encouraged and TAUGHT, and that teachers should hold them accountable and TEACH them to read and write. I think the present standardized testing regime is disrupting the teaching process, and not providing an accurate picture of what kids have learned. Kids should be tested, and often, but I do not think the CRCT is the correct test instrument.

By efg

June 10, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this

Just a Mom,

Did you take the CRCT and ITBS when you were in school? I did and there isn’t much difference. What is your problem with a child taking one test versus another? Is the problem the test or the fact that the child isn’t passing it? I hear stuff about poor test takers all of the time. As a teacher the problem with most of these kids is that they really could not pass the test on grade level. The problem is not test taking or the test, but the child can’t pass the test because of lack of knowledge. They should have been held back years ago and remediated before going any further in school. Fix the problem as soon as you recognize it. Don’t allow the child to go further and be totally overwhelmed. We are doing our children a real disservice by making too many excuses. The truth is hard to hear sometimes.

By Just a Mom

June 10, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this

efg, Both the ITBS and CRCT were after my time, but my kids had them in school, and I am very familiar with both tests, and I have been on review committees for standardized tests. I agree with you that kids should not be passed on if they can’t pass. I have heard from many teachers who say they must teach to the test to get good pass rates in their classes, precisely because they inherited failing kids from the previous grade level. If you read my posts more carefully you will see that I think teachers need to stick to the basics. Kids who cannot read and write should not be passed along. I am opposed to most of the standardized tests because they take away teaching time, because they do not accurately reflect the collective knowledge of the tested students, and because these tests are a waste of tax dollars as the schools systems only use the tests to publish statistics, and to punish low performing schools and teachers stuck with the lagging students. I don’t know what hard truth you think I can’t bear, as all of my statements have conformed with your views.

By Gail

June 10, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this

efg: You are insulting. Not that it’s any of your business, but my child has a brain injury. It was diagnosed by a neurologist, not by the school. My kid has a physical disability as a result. Any child with a brain injury is at increased risk of having a learning disability. The neurologist told us this and when to be aware that it might appear. That happened and the school system tested my kid and labeled the learning disability.

Unlike a lot of short-sighted people, I don’t mind my child being labeled for a positive reason. It’s the negativity that people attach to the labels that I have a problem with. From your post about your sister, it seems you were brought up to believe that a learning disability is a negative. To me, it just is. It means that my child will have to learn in a way that may be different from the way other children learn. So what? I accept that and work with it. Fortunately, most of my child’s teachers have accepted and worked with it also.

I believe my child can do any job he wants to do in the future as long as he is willing to work for it. Last time I checked, employers allowed questions to be asked for increased understanding. It will be incumbent on my kid to do what needs to be done to complete a work assignment. (My child can read.)

I’m proud to say that my child knows he is unique and special (as we should all know about ourselves). He knows he has to work hard for good grades in spite of any obstacles that are put in his way, including teachers like you with negative attitudes about kids that don’t align with your narrow ideas about what is normal and who is deserving.

By Gail

June 10, 2005 02:49 PM | Link to this

DB:

Thank you for understanding my point. I agree with your last post wholeheartedly. Kids should not be told that they’re so great that they don’t have to follow the rules. This is what leads kids to that bratty, self-centered behavior that teachers (and some of us parents) detest.

I am constantly keeping a balance of enough help without too much help with my kid. I want to push him to be more independent and self-reliant with school work as he gets older without leaving him hanging out to dry. This is a difficult balance without having an education background myself. I talk to his teachers about this every year, but would welcome some other suggestions/opinions.

By Just a Mom

June 10, 2005 02:49 PM | Link to this

Gail, Thank you for telling efg what I also felt. The problem with a blog is that some of the ‘expert’ posters make assumptions and inferences and jump to conclusions. Clarifications and polite questions and comments go over much better than preaching to us about the ‘truth.’

By efg

June 10, 2005 02:54 PM | Link to this

Teachers should not be teaching to the test, but instead teaching what kids should know. The kids that are truly prepared to advance to the next grade will pass. Standardized test are used to measure whether or not a kid is prepared to move on to the next grade. I think we must have standardized test because school districts cannot be trusted to determine who should be passed to the next grade. Too many students graduate each year and are not prepared for the real world. Administrators spend much of their time figuring out how to manipulate the numbers in their favor. Standarized test scores can’t be manipulated. I don’t really care which test we give as long as the picture presented by the scores is real. The hard truth is that many of our kids are not ready to go to the next grade. Sadly, many of my high school students come to the ninth grade unprepared and leave high school unprepared. I am so tired of see you tax dollars and my tax dollars thrown away. Standardized testing could by our wake up call. I just wish there were not so many ways to get around a child not passing and being withheld. Next year eighth graders could be held back and not allowed to enter high school if they do not pass the CRCT. There many loopholes that will allow them to advance. Sadly this is not a perfect situation. They will continue to slip through until we wake up. Teachers of low performing students should not be punished. The low performing students should be held back until they achieve. This is a real life lesson. You don’t advance in the real world unless you make progress. You don’t get a raise unless you do something to earn one. We could all benefit by teaching our kids real life lessons.

By efg

June 10, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this

Gail and Just a Mom,

I set high expectations for all of the children that I teach. I believe it is my job to prepare students for the world of work. I am sorry that you were insulted or disagree with my harsh comments. As a teacher I have seen far too many children leave high school unprepared. They were promoted from one grade to the next without being prepared. This is the hard truth. Georgia is allowing students to graduate without being prepare. You and other citizens should be outraged, but instead you seem to be content. I want responsible, dependable, prepared and honest students to leave our schools. I want to send our nation’s employers graduates that are prepared and ready to work. Employers do not need unprepared employees. I do not believe in lying to our children only to have them learn life lessons the hard way.

As for your child’s disability I was only responding to your comments about labeling. It is not any of my business what type of disability your child has. I did not ask and you did not need to tell me. It is hard to face the fact that teachers have not labeled your child. You did. Your child is receiving special help because you asked for it. Don’t complain. I am glad you have high, but realstic expectations for your child. As an educator, I have to say we don’t see much of that. It is wonderful that your child can read, but be aware that if he couldn’t that would be alright in our educational system. The system would allow him to be moved along anyway. Undoubtably your child has a real learning disability caused by a real condition. This is not the case with many children. Many of the LD children that I work with were neglected during infancy and toddlerhood. They are neglected by our school systems by being passed along and their parents are allowing it. The point about my sister was that the school system wanted to label her and she should have never been considered. This is just the way it works. Sad, but true. Parents are allowing their children to be labelled whether they need it or not. The world of work does not allow for accomodations for the learning disabled. I believe you really understand what I am trying to convey in these statements. I am not trying to be rude or insulting just realstic and honest. I do want the best education possible for all kids. I don’t want to feed them a load of you know.

By Gail

June 10, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this

efg:
I’m not complaining about my child having a learning disability. I just don’t think he should be discriminated against because of it. Should he receive additional help because of it? Answer: Yes, because right now, the school system does not otherwise provide teaching for children who learn differently than what schools have decided to label as the norm.

What you are touching on in your latest blog about labeling children as LD when they shouldn’t be is more in line with what I said before about some teachers using the label as a crutch. “Some teachers may complain about the LD kids hindering them, but some are using it to explain away their own inadequacies.”

I see more evidence of parents’ fear and unwillingness to accept that something might be “wrong” with their child, than that parents are lined up trying to get their kids classified as LD or special ed. Believe me, there are some parents kicking and clawing to keep their kids out because they don’t like the labels. Sometimes this occurs when their kids really need support.

On the other hand, I agree with you that there are some parents who also want to “explain away their own inadequacies” because they refuse to discipline their children. It’s easier to say their kid has ADHD and needs Ritalin or special ed than to acknowledge that they don’t know how to discipline their children.

Right now, I’m worried more about those kids who need help and whose parents are afraid to ask for it because of the labeling. Those are kids who will suffer and who won’t be able to rebound as easily as those who were poorly parented. If kids are neglected in infancy and childhood, they still need help. Just because their parents sucked doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be supported. It’s a lot easier to rebound from poor parenting than no education.

Just a Mom: You’re welcome

By efg

June 10, 2005 05:02 PM | Link to this

Gail and Just a Mom,

Do you think any student should be passed to the ninth grade if he/she cannot pass a standardized test measuring what an eighth grader should know?

By Just a Mom

June 13, 2005 10:34 AM | Link to this

efg, To answer your question, there must be a context to the eighth grader’s failure. Are the teachers in the particular school or system required from early grades on to promote failing students to the next grade? If so, how fair is it to abruptly stop their promotion to ninth grade? If you stop them, you must not put them back in the same failing situation, but you can help them through remediation. What areas did the eighth grader fail in, language arts, math, social studies? Chances are the student is a poor reader, and no matter how smart, cannot perform well on any written test. You cannot hold a student back in a grade forever, but the schools could remedy the failing and high dropout rates by creating ‘basics bootcamps’ where the kids are put through reading, writing and math regimes that go back to the very basics, letter and number recognition, phonics, beginning reading, word and sentence writing, addition and subtraction and multiplication. Everything they should have learned by the third grade, but probably didn’t. Make no assumptions that the eighth grader knows any of these basics, and start at the very beiginning. Most dropouts do so in the 8th to 10th grades, because they finally hit the wall where they need the most basic of reading and writing skills, and they don’t have them. They probably acted out and acted up throughout the early grades because they were hiding their deficiencies. There may have been undiagnosed dyslexia, eyesight problems, hearing problems etc. that put the student behind in the beginning, and then he/she never could catch up. I think if the student thinks they can get real help without the stigma of special ed, or failing and being held back, and they are willing to help themselves, then they can recover the lost skills and eventually catch up to grade level. If the schools only taught one subject, it should be READING, from kindergarten through 12th grade.

By Gail

June 14, 2005 10:08 AM | Link to this

Hi, efg I’m not sure how I feel about the passing/retention issue. I have read and heard a lot of opinions about it, especially on the blog. There are a lot of good points on both sides. Graduating kids who can’t read should be unacceptable. However, at least those kids have a diploma which is a minimum requirement for almost any job nowadays. That student might be able to get some job that doesn’t require reading and be able to support himself. On the other hand, a student who is held back so many times and eventually ends up dropping out may never be able to get a decent job and support him/herself.

I would like to know what eventually happens to students who graduate from high school unable to read. Obviously, this is an embarrassment to the education system, but how are the non-reading graduates affected beyond the obvious? I know of one person like this who has always managed to work and support himself.

By Just a Mom

June 14, 2005 10:23 AM | Link to this

Gail, Some of the kids who drop out or graduate with poor reading skills end up in adult literacy programs and GED preparation. I know because I used to tutor adults in reading, did GED prep and was a GED examiner. They all regretted wasting their time in school, and just wanted to learn now so they could get ahead in life.

By Gail

June 14, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this

It sounds like whether they’re promoted or not, those kids in up in GED. However, what about the ones who don’t pursue the extra classes who’ve already gotten a diploma? Back when my friend graduated not knowing how to read, there was very little talk of GED. He decided to pursue reading and probably did take some literacy classes. Aren’t there some people out there who still can’t read but are working? I periodically hear about them. I’m curious to know what percentage of people who can’t read are working.

By efg

June 16, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this

Just a Mom and Gail,

Students are not getting behind once they start school. Most students that cannot read were behind when they started school. The biggest problem facing society today is lack of parental responsibility. Too many kids start Pre-K or Kindergarten without the needed skills. Yes, people kids need to have developed skills before they start school. I am so tired of the public placing blame on the teachers and school systems for failing their kids. I wonder how many parents reflect on what they are not doing instead of always blaming it on someone else. This is not only a problem with the poor and uneducated. I see the same neglected kids coming from middle class homes where parents are very educated. I believe education has a lot of problems, but their are only some things that love and attention from home can fix. I don’t think a school system should promote children to any grade until they have met all requirements for passing the current grade. Standardized test provide us with a way to measure whether or not a student has met requirements to progress to the next grade. I can’t think of many jobs that don’t require reading. If you believe in allowing our public to believe you can work and not read then you are an enabler of the illiterate. Even dishwashers need to be able to read directions.