Get Schooled

By Mary

May 25, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this

I looked at their website earlier. I think they should expand their FAQ to better detail the environment. If the website isn’t clearly reflecting the practices that some might find questionable, then the parents can easily claim ‘I didn’t know!’ The earning of desk and chairs bothers me a little, but if it’s only a day or two, no biggie. The punishment of a class as a whole I find really troubling. When’s the last time your work department was punished due to the actions of one individual? I’ve seen regular public schools practice that, and I’ve always hated it. It doesn’t teach anything, imo, except that your classmates can be extra annoying.. and you can’t just ignore them and mind your own business.

Another item I wonder about is their selection process. Most charter schools are doing really, right? They’re selective, they’re smaller schools, and they’re able to focus on the individual kids better. Smaller is always better. Where’s a study that compares a rigorous (but not extreme) curriculum & small classes & choice programming against this KIPP program?

By Dan

May 25, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this

You certainly raise some good questions Mary I wonder how far the all punished for one goes. It is a technique used in sports and military training to foster teamwork but the other benefit is it uses peer pressure to discipline. Often people that don’t care if they are punished themselves may be compelled to straigten up to avoid the stigma of hurting thier classmates. I don’t necessarily agree with the smaller is always better comment. The problem is good teachers are few and far between. I think a good teacher with 25 students will be more effective than a mediocre teacher with 15 or 20.

By Christy

May 25, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this

By Mary

May 25, 2005 02:16 PM | Link to this

You know, I thought more about the punishment for all thing. In one school, kids were really into tattling on others. They’d create problems (literally lie) in order to get their classmates in trouble. The teacher didn’t see it happen because many times it didn’t, but they still wanted to make sure that children would tell if there’s a real problem. So the tattler/liar got a reward by seeing their victim sent to the AP of Discipline. The punishment for all I can see leading to two things: 1) covering up infractions a teacher doesn’t witness. 2) reducing needless tattling. I personally have trouble understanding the teamwork concept, because I haven’t lived that in any part of my life. But with the kids, would it lead to offsite squabbles and possibly retaliation? And, what about parents like me who teach their kids to keep their own noses clean, work hard, help others, take pride in your work, and be successful. The team punishment concept destroys that idea, while making them monitor both themselves and their peers. But, of course, I don’t understand the troubles these kids face. If you take these kids and enroll them in any private prep school, will they not succeed? Higher expectations yield higher results? I looked at the forms the kids and parents sign, they know there are higher expectations from the beginning for students and parents. The parents that enroll their kids in these schools, I have to believe, are the more involved of the parents.

By kdw

May 25, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this

I have a problem with a child being required to ‘earn’ a desk. KIPP WAYS, according to the website, is a public charter school. It is supported by the tax dollars of the parents who enroll their children at KIPP WAYS. A desk for each student should be supplied. If they need to ‘earn’ anything, it should be good grades and not something as basic as a desk.

By Mary

May 25, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this

Regarding class size. With a class of 15 to 20 and a mediocre teacher, I think there will be some kids that naturally become ‘teacher helpers’. Giving a young kid opportunity to tutor and help their peers is a really great experience (if it’s not abused). In smalls groups I’ve seen, it’s always been something that just happens. Smaller groups need less structure, there’s more freedom to try non-conventional ideas.

By Mary

May 25, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this

Christy, On your point 2, I was wondering that too. I’ve only seen it mentioned regarding punishment, and so I’ve only been thinking about it that way. What’s funny is that at work when our entire team has met some milestone or something, we get a celebration. But, it’s not the work of an individual that leads to it. Individuals get individual rewards and punishments. Groupwork gets group rewards and punishments. Makes sense to me.

By MamaS

May 25, 2005 02:33 PM | Link to this

The “No Child Left Behind” Act is group punishment for public schools. If one group or subgroup fails, the whole school fails, regardless of the efforts and success of all the others students and teachers. If you succeed, your “reward” is that your goal is set higher for the next testing period.

By Dan

May 25, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this

Teachers with the ability to inspire “teachers helpers” and incorporate non conventional ideas while maintaining competency of the basics, are exceptional teachers. If you increase class size 15-20% and get rid of the bottom 15-20% of teachers. Give the remaining ones a raise. Your kids would be better educated, the problem is objectively identifying who to keep.

By dubya

May 25, 2005 03:21 PM | Link to this

I have no problem with this program at all. Kids, my own included, have no concept of how fortunate they are and they really have no concept of teamwork. They all have the I/me syndrome. Did you not read the blog about Rose who came from a poor country and cherished all the opportunities she had here? I think it is time for kids to learn teamwork and discpline. Why not try something new since the basic public school more often than not fails on kids.

By Amanda

May 25, 2005 03:35 PM | Link to this

According to the KIPP WAYS website, I think they do group celebration on a regular basis (to answer those who ask if there is something to counteract the group punishment system). If you look at their schedule, there is a note concerning Fridays:

“There will be no afternoon labs or enrichment activities on Fridays. Instead, there will be a weekly all-school meeting on Fridays at 3:15 p.m., which will include chants, awards, student performances, and a Song Fest. Students will be dismissed at 4:00 p.m. on Fridays.”

So once a week they get together and recognize the good things going on with the entire school present.

To me, this school follows the model that many, many boarding schools/military academys/etc follow that - guess what - WORKS in most cases. Since this is a program that a parent CHOOSES to place their child into, it doesn’t have to be something that EVERYONE agrees with, as long as it does not hurt the child. As far as earning a desk, book, whatever, I believe it is extremely important that the kids learn that nothing in life will be handed to them. The will appreciate all that they have more, and realize that their hard work can accomplish something. They will be proud of themselves for their achievements and not be afraid of a little hard work!

By yesiamworried

May 25, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this

Choice is the key here — the unhappy parents are now free to return to their local, traditional public schools, where I hope, they find high expectations of all children and teachers who genuinely believe that every child can succeed!

By Kara

May 25, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this

With regards to everyone in a work environment not getting punished for the act of one, that happens all the time in society. Companies that face bankruptcy, like Enron, WorldCom, etc. had a few individuals who distroyed an entire company. Everyday it happens. When an employee’s bonus is tied to the success of the company, that employee will be affected by the production of others.

By lady

May 25, 2005 04:10 PM | Link to this

There are so many comments that are being shared. The commenting is a good thing because it raises awareness of what’s going on at KIPP WAYS Academy and the approach of the program.

Every child is entitled to a good education. Every child is entitled to have the best opportunities that life has to offer. But, with the entitlement to adequate education comes responsibility and appreciation. Earning desks, chairs, etc. – isn’t a problem. Remember that these are children that we talking about. They are on the floor in the rooms while playing their game systems with their siblings and friends, anyway. Sitting on the floor isn’t a problem with the kids, the kids don’t care really. It’s parents who have decided that they wouldn’t want to or be able to sit on the carpeted floor so their child shouldn’t have to do it – that’s the problem. The children are all there together and when they earn their classrooms and desks and uniforms, they are aware of the work that they have put in to get to that point. That’s right, the work that they have put in to get to that point. It’s OK to work.

Parents: I hope you will look seriously at the school where your child attends. I hope that you will be involved enough to know what the mission and vision of the school is. Do you know the administration? Do they know you? Will you show up when things are going well or just if there is a problem? What is the school’s credo? Is it valid and realistic? Are they living up to that credo? Are they giving the best education that your child can get? Whether you agree with everything that happens or not, is it the best place for your child at this point or do you believe that this is your only option?

You see you, as a dominate figure in your child’s life, determine your child’s world. As a parent, you dictate how your child views himself/herself. You determine how a child responds to the challenges they are faced with on any day/everyday. If you teach them that they are can have without work, then that’s the attitude that try to take into the adult world with them only to be met with the disappointment of knowing that no one gives them anything. They are going to have to work hard to get to their goals. They are going to have to believe in themselves and be able to deal with any and everybody. Once they have those concepts fully engrained in their being, then they can work, achieve, accomplish and keep pushing.

By Anonymous Teacher

May 25, 2005 04:35 PM | Link to this

I agree that children and youth today have grown up with the entitlement mentality, and that learning the cold, hard facts of life is badly needed. I admit to some anxiousness about earning a desk, but I do believe that with parental support and involvement, their children can learn that “you can’t get something for nothing” or “there’s no free lunch” or whatever. I know that my husband and I are guilty of not teaching this concept well to our 28-year-old son, who has moved back home again for the third time. As long as we live in the same area, our son will continue to see us as his safety net. We have cut off the money, etc., but neither of us is able to let him become homeless. We are not proud of these facts, and our son too is embarrassed that he moved home. Therefore, upon reflection, maybe earning a desk is not such a horrible fate. I believe the parents of KIPP students would rather learn this lesson sooner rather than later.

By kdw

May 26, 2005 09:09 AM | Link to this

Those of you who feel it’s okay that a child have to earn a desk…Did you have to earn a desk at your job? I know I didn’t. I’m expected to do my job, so the company has to supply me with the things I need in order to do it. Some things just come with the territory.

By James

May 26, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this

The classroom exercises required for students to ‘earn’ their desks, supplies, etc. sound like a great idea. Unfortunately, not everyone is entitled to an education. Every year schools like UGA, Emory, and Ga. Tech. turn away thousands of intelligent, hard-working students. In the real world there are limited resources and we are privileged if we are lucky enough to be exposed to a good education. I don’t understand why a parent wouldn’t want to help their children to appreciate the opportunities that are given. The learning process is often hard work and as long as the student feels entitled to everything there will be little incentive for them to work hard.

In regards to the collective punishment – anyone who has worked for a large organization understands that everyone’s performance is tied together. It can be frustrating but it is very important for students to learn teamwork skills at an early age. Teamwork is more than just finishing a task together – it also involves motivating, disciplining, and communicating with one another in the process. I personally think that it is great that KIPP is teaching these skills.

It is important to note that KIPP is not a traditional school. The hours appear to be very long, the purpose of the school is “college prep� and the web site indicates that they require a large time commitment from both students and parents. I think it’s great that parents can choose a more traditional classroom environment for their children if they find that KIPP’s program is too rigorous.

By CASSIE

May 26, 2005 09:54 AM | Link to this

For those of any race who feel that a child should earn a desk or a chair or a book is crazy!!! The technique that KIPP WAYS are using are awful and any parent who allow there kid to attend that school as a parent a say shame on you.for black parents how dare you allow a school tell you your child have to earn a desk!!! when black people before you died for learning!!!died for even looking at a book!!It really bother me that black people fall for educators who sell them experiment.KIPP WAY student or made up of minority.we know most minority or black and latinos,how dare any parent of color allow a school to fully take control of someone life by keeping them in school all day and 3 saturday out the month.I say shame on the black parent in Atlanta, Georgia who allow a school like this to promote selfless and tell them what your ancestor did meant nothing.I’am disturb and mos t of all heart broken when I think about all the black people before us who died for reading and whip for wanting to learn,now black parents with the help of black educators tell our children not adult but children you must earn to learn in 2005 right hear in Atlanta, I can’t believe this.

By James

May 26, 2005 09:58 AM | Link to this

Hi KDW,

You might be surprised to learn that I did have to “earn� my desk at the company that I work for. I had to sit down with my manager and his boss and discuss my qualifications. I had to convince them that I was the right person for the job. I had to provide references and prove that I have the appropriate educational background to do the job. Only then was I given the job along with the desk that comes along with it. Are you saying that your company just gave you a desk as soon as you walked in??! Wow!

By Anita

May 26, 2005 10:23 AM | Link to this

I’d like to know what these students have to do to earn their desk. My instincts tell me it’s probably something relatively small and easily acheived by every student, but I’d like to hear from someone who has had a child go through the program.

By brent

May 26, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this

I really hope that some of the posts here are just hoaxes intended to get a rise out of people, because it would be very depressing to think that there are actually people out there who are THAT stupid.

Look, KIPP schools certainly are not for everyone — although they apparently are quite successful for a large majority of students who attend these schools. But the key point here is that these are OPTIONAL programs. No one is forcing any parent to send his/her child to one of these schools. Quite the contrary, the parents must make a conscious effort to have their child moved out of a traditional school and into one of these programs. If you disagree with the KIPP methodology, there’s a very simple solution — DON’T SEND YOUR CHILD THERE. How difficult is that to understand?

By Sly

May 26, 2005 11:05 AM | Link to this

Cassie = LISA. Right honey? Same rant. Same style.

By Mary

May 26, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this

James: The analogy doesn’t pan out. I didn’t have to “earn” my desk at work. I went through a selection / qualification process and earned a position with the company. Although, it’s really more of a negotiation and less of an “earning”. You negotiate whether you’re a match for the prospective employer by stating your qualifications, meeting the managers, etc.

Once selected, the desk, chair, computer equipment, benefits, etc all came with the position. I didn’t have to earn or interview for them individually. On my first day, I didn’t jump through additional hoops ‘to earn’ the privilege to work here.

The students fill out applications, sign forms, the families show their commitment, that’s the selection / qualification process for them. To have them ‘earn’ the privilege of education that their parents pay for, I find disturbing. But, really, I would also like to know what’s truly involved with ‘earning’ your desk.

I found the analogy a bit insulting to the kids. You’re not a child being interviewed by an adult. It’s a different relationship altogether. Plus, a job selection / interview process is not so much 100% about your ability to “earn” the position. It seems an easier task than that of the children. Of course, when you compare the scale of it, you realize it’s not. Funding your life versus earning a desk dosen’t quite matchup.

By kdw

May 26, 2005 11:32 AM | Link to this

Yes, James. I have worked for several companies as an IT consultant and each company did give me a desk the day I came to work for them. And, surprisingly enough, a PC/laptop and a phone, too! These are necessary tools for me to do my job. And just think, THEY’RE paying ME…not the other way around. Why would you bring anyone into your environment, be it work or school, and not give them the tools they need?

By CASSIE

May 26, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

I wish parent will investigate how this school operate before allowing them to repeat history call slavery with the help of black people.

By James

May 26, 2005 11:54 AM | Link to this

Dear Mary,

My apologies if my sarcasm was lost on you. I couldn’t care less about my desk at work – in fact I work from home most of the time. When these students graduate from college no one is going to care that they had to go through this particular classroom exercise. They will be too busy celebrating the endless opportunities that a college degree will provide to worry about a silly desk. Why doesn’t anyone see the big picture here? Cassie goes on about how Blacks have struggled to get an education, blah, blah, blah - but she trashing an institution that has a track record of greatly improving the chance that many minorities have to go to college. Mary, you could have saved the time it took to type up your rather detailed rebuttal. Guess what – I agree with you that a job is completely different than an academic environment. What I don’t agree with is the idea that this particular classroom exercise is as big a deal as people are making it out to be - especially considering the fact that this school has such a great track record. I’d love to hear hard facts about what makes this school so bad.

By NotMyProblem

May 26, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this

Cassie - your horrible grammar, spelling, word use and overall ignorant rant are a perfect example of what our public schools offer in way of a government education. Perhaps you should look into “earning” your desk as well, so you’ll have a place to become familiar with the English language. And quit playing the race card. Your attitude of “shame on black parents… our ancestors died for reading, etc.” is the exact kind of entitlement attitude that has given black children the idea that they don’t have to work for anything. Wake up, Cassie. It’s 2005 and blacks haven’t been slaves in over 100 years. If anyone is keeping you down, it’s not the white man. It’s your inability to take responsibilty for your own life and (in your case) basic education and writing skills. I hope you’re not a parent.

By James

May 26, 2005 11:59 AM | Link to this

KDW - LOL I work in IT too and you’re right a lot of people do get desks on the first day. I hope you agree with me that there is a bigger issue at stake here then a desk.

By NotMyProblem

May 26, 2005 12:04 PM | Link to this

James - your sarcasm wasn’t lost on those of us with a brain in our heads. I’m floored by posters like Cassie who have obviously played the race card her entire life in order to get what she needed, and unfortunately, an education wasn’t one of those things. I’ve never seen such attrocious writing in my life.

These kids need to be taught that they are responsible for whatever they want to get out of life, and that they will need to work hard in order to achieve the goals they set for themselves. Talking about slavery like Cassie does only belittles the experiences and battles that blacks went through, and serves only further sterotype the mentality of the welfare mama and how she’s “owed” everyting because her great great great grandfather was a slave to someone in the 1800’s. Here’s a newsflash for you, Cassie: It’s 2005. You have, by law, the same rights and opportunities as everyone else in this country, so stop crying about something that neither you nor anyone else you know has ever gone through, and start lifting yourself above that entitlement attitude. You hurt nobody but yourself and (God forbid if you’re a parent) your children by teaching them that.

By lynn

May 26, 2005 12:16 PM | Link to this

Stop being so negative KIPP fan club!!!

By brent

May 26, 2005 12:19 PM | Link to this

To those who think that withholding a desk until it is “earned” somehow deprives a child of full educational opportunities, I think you are missing the point. The notion earning everything you get IS ITSELF part of the education parents sending their child to a KIPP school are paying for. The whole idea of these programs is that education is about more than academics alone — it is also about instilling a work ethic and a sense of personal responsibility in the students.

Granted, the notion of earning a desk, specifically, is probably never going to apply in real life. But the lesson they are trying to teach with this tactic is not literally “in the real world, one must earn one’s desk” — it’s simply one of many techniques used at these schools to engrain the more general realization that usually in life nothing is given to you — instead, you usually have to work to make your own opportunities.

By Eli

May 26, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this

For Brent and all the rest of you idiots that school would never insist in my neighborhood.I fault the community for not holding there Metro Atlanta Schools Accountable.KIPP WAY is for people who don’t know who they are.THAT SCHOOL SUCK.

By Patti

May 26, 2005 12:37 PM | Link to this

Hey all,

Please don’t attack each other.

Thanks,

Patti

By brent

May 26, 2005 12:37 PM | Link to this

Eli — Shall we assume that you haven’t yet earned your desk?

Once again, the most important point here is that these programs are OPTIONAL. If you disagree that vehemently (look it up, Eli) with KIPP techniques, don’t send your child there.

But there’s no reason to bash these programs when, from all accounts, the RESULTS are overwhelmingly positive.

By Amanda

May 26, 2005 12:47 PM | Link to this

You know, I have a cousin attending a school that costs $100,000 a year (for 7th grade) that uses alot of these same techniques of earning everything, strong discipline, and focus on goals. The end result of these programs cannot be disputed. They flat out work. I don’t exactly know what the racial issue has to do with the techniques of the program. The school targets inner-city areas because the kids are considered at risk, not because they are black necessarily. They don’t treat a black child any differently in that school than they would treat any other child in that school. But anyway, I know that people are always going to feel a certain way about all of this, and the answer for them is to not have their child participate in the program.

By Eli

May 26, 2005 01:00 PM | Link to this

brent my brother don’t waste your time attacking me okay! I’am just expressing how I feel.you see brent I know just like you know that school would never exsist in my upper class neighborhood,because we know the truth and we know KIPP WAY isn’t the way.

By brent

May 26, 2005 01:20 PM | Link to this

Actually, Eli, I would LOVE to have a program like this in my neighborhood. It would save me the expense of a private school and allow my kids to avoid the culture of utter mediocrity and unaccountability that exists in most traditional public schools.

In fact, my own childhood was filled with many of the same lessons that KIPP programs attempt to convey. Not from the public school I attended, mind you, but from my parents. They made it very clear to me from the beginning that they held ME solely responsible for my performance in school. They never blamed a teacher or an administrator or a school system if I didn’t make the grade. It was always MY responsibility to make sure that I made whatever adjustment were necessary to succeed — whether that meant seeking extra tutoring, cutting back on non school-related activities, or simply putting aside any personal conflicts I may have had with a teacher, administrator, etc.

And as far as your “truth” that KIPP is not the answer — well, apparently is IS the answer for at least 80% of those attending. I don’t know about your experience, but that’s a much higher percentage of students moving on to college than we had at my old high school.

By Mary

May 26, 2005 01:40 PM | Link to this

James, I see the bigger picture. I don’t believe this is the best method, though. Why not higher expectations without the wierd methods? Have traditional rigorous curriculums with high expectations and challenging exercises proven unsatisfactory? I don’t know that the desk thing is that big of a deal either, since nobody has posted what it really entails. I haven’t heard anything that causes me to think this school is any better than any decent prep school. Not even any better than Bellevue WA public schools.

Notmyproblem, I agree with some of what you’ve said, but when you sink to simple insults.. bleh. These kids that are selected are from families where the parents are more involved. They want better for their kids. They recognize the faults of their public schools. They recognize the faults of their generation of parents. They want to change it for their children. The kids with these parents aren’t going to need that harsh lesson as much as other kids without those parents. Those aren’t the ones in the school. If the parents care enough to seek out this school, then I bet they’re doing some things right at home, too. Leave these type of lessons to the parents, the real parents. Not the school administration. Leave the academics to the school administration.

By brent

May 26, 2005 01:42 PM | Link to this

Oh, and one more thing, Eli — You are absolutely right, I shouldn’t have taken those cheap shots at you. It was totally uncalled for and I apologize.

But I suppose calling me an idiot is completely acceptable, right?

By NotMyProblem

May 26, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this

I apologize to all for my insulting comments earlier. I just really get angry when I hear that ignorant cop-out that black parents should be ashamed to teach their kids to work for things, and that black kids are kept down because of slavery, when it hasn’t existed in over 100 years. KIPP WAY school sounds like a wonderful school that uses unconventional teaching methods to teach valuable lessons to their students. I think that is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. The conventional methods can be seen throughout our failing public schools, so I think anything unconventional that a school can do is a positive and should be encouraged. Especially when there is an undisputed record of success using these methods.

By Laquanya

May 26, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

I feel that everyone voices need to be counted but if you have not experience, please hold your response. Yes you may not agree with some of the methods of the school but if you have child who need that extra push this school is wonderful. Yes desk are provided for the students but so are responsiblity. In a work place, you have to show that you are capable to acheive many goals. So why not start that with your kids. By earning your desk you have shown determination to succeed. Before you judge, spend a day at the school and see the level of respect, responsibility and high achievement. Then make a judement on experience not stupidity.

By James

May 26, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this

Ok Cassie, Eli, and Lynn. Here is your big chance. You clearly don’t like KIPP. This is your chance to explain to us your plan for a better education for at risk youth. Do you have a specific education program in mind that would be a better choice for these young adults? Can you provide us with statistics of how your program will be more successful than the KIPP program? The reason that it seems like people are attacking you is that we desperately want these at risk youth to succeed. After examining the statistics we found that the KIPP program is producing great results (80% to college). You can win this debate right here and now by giving us empirical evidence that you have a better way. Learning is a lifelong journey - I look forward to your response.

By brent

May 26, 2005 01:58 PM | Link to this

Mary, you make some great points. I’m sure that the performance numbers of kids at this school are skewed somewhat simply because the obviously come from homes that are take an active interest in their education. And I agree that it would be wonderful if schools could stick to academics and let parents handle the tough life lessons. The problem is that seemingly fewer and fewer parents are holding up their end of the bargain.

During my one and only year as a high school teacher, I was shocked at the attitude of not only many of the kids in my classes, but moreso of the parents. There seems to be a growing population of parents who are convinced that their child is infallible and that any problems he/she ever encounter MUST be someone else’s fault. It’s not just one or two bad apples anymore. And unfortunately, for those students whose parents ARE trying to teach them responsibility, respect and accountability, being constantly surrounded by a large population of kids who see everything as an entitlement is a very powerful negative influence.

By Eli

May 26, 2005 02:24 PM | Link to this

Okay James please stop with the explanation stuff I for one as a white man would never ever agree to a gimmick for any child.why would I tell a child he must earn a desk,please stop with all your whinning the school set up is a joke and regardless that 80% of the student go to college your lying to the kids about life and thats when I blame the parent.

By RC

May 26, 2005 02:32 PM | Link to this

Wow, try to imagine the “traditional” public schools making some of the demands on parents and students that private schools and charter schools demand. Traditional public schools are forced into mediocrity because anytime you ask for involvement from parents or work from students, you get complaints or apathy. Parents are the single most important factor in making a school successful or not. Parents who pay for private school are involved because it hits them in the wallet(a good argument against vouchers). Parents who have to sign charter school contracts know the consequences for not upholding their part of the contract. Let public schools make similar demands as the KIPP schools, and you will see an improvement in public schools too.

By Eli

May 26, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this

RC: I agree if parent will demand better schools there wouldn’t be any KIPP WAYS.Parent do not understand the power they have as parent to go to there school board and demand better principal and teachers.But you see it all start with parent believing that there kids deserve the best right in there neighborhood.now me personally I wouldn’t dare send my child to enviroment that help lie to my kids about life,and help brainwash them with there ways.those kids are kids and we shouldn’t instill in them grown up ways, we should allow kids to find out for themself about life and parent should train there kids up in the right way not the school.

By LB

May 26, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this

I spent most of my school career attending school in a system that most Americans would term oppressive. Corporal punishment was permissible, class punishment for the misbehavior of one or only a handful was practiced when deemed necessary and, heaven forbid, we had to wear uniforms. While I hated the group punishment when I was affected, peer pressure certainly was effective in controlling bad behaviour. All these things combined created an environment that was conducive to learning. I sometimes regret that I didn’t finish my schooling there.

I spent my final year of high school in a Fairfax, Va., county school. One of the top public school systems in the country. It was like stepping into an entirely different world. Students were rude to teachers, fights broke out in the halls and there were times when I wondered who was running the school. I’ll never forget the day I was sitting in class and a female classmate jumped up and ran across the room knocking over desks and screaming her head off. Next thing we knew, she was outside our classroom window in the midst of a catfight with another female student. The teacher (a male coach) made no attempt to do anything beyond instructing a student next to the open window to close it.

Frankly, I don’t put much stock in my high school diploma. My senior year seemed like a joke compared with the discipline and rigor I experienced oversea.

I applaude any attempt to bring discipline, respect and education back into our schools. Charter schools exist because the traditional public schools aren’t educating our children!

By jackie

May 26, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this

I sent my child to kipp ways in the west end area on ashby street and they didn’t tell me my child would be sitting on the floor or having to earn a desk or a chair.or walking around the school because one child did something wrong.I would have took my child else where.I was so mislead by the principal and his assistant who is a black women who go from school to school handing out flyers when she don’t even suppose to be on the school property.the principal made it perfectly clear to the parents that this is his school, I made sure to take my daughter out and I ask her to forgive me for I just didn’t know.I hope Atlanta Public School will look into this because they go to all of there schools telling parents how bad ATLANTA PUBLIC SCHOOL is and they should leave and try them.they even have a couple who teach at Morehouse college and they agree with the sitting on the floor.I call Morehouse and ask the president as well other professor who said that was unheard of,and they would never agree to that method in teaching especially with black kids or any child.the president assure me as a parent I was doing the right thing by pulling out my daughter he also wish me luck in finding a school for her.

By Sly

May 26, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this

ok LISA - you being Jackie now? C’mon girl. The jig is up. Happy Friday BTW.

By jackie

May 26, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this

Sly:who are you and why you insist that my name is lisa.I’am who I say I’am and I don’t have to pretend to be someone is.Mister.

By James

May 26, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

Jackie we’re trying to figure out what is wrong with this school and I have to say you’re not helping the Anti-KIPP side very much. You took 230 words to tell us that you pulled your child out of KIPP because they made them sit on the floor and walk around the building. Is your child seriously disabled? If so then they are lucky to have you as a Mom. I pray that you will always have the financial resources to take care of them for the rest of their life. If you child is not disabled then you should understand that some parents want to instill in their children the kind of character that only comes through hard work and a sense of collective responsibility.

By M.B.

May 26, 2005 05:10 PM | Link to this

I think the fact that some people seem to be so outraged about kids having to “earn” their desks at KIPP ways is a prime example of why our regular public schools aren’t doing better in the first place. As a teacher in a public school in the same area as KIPP Ways, I have seen first-hand the attitude of entitlement that so many parents and kids have. Many (not all) parents and kids seem to think that they have the right to getting things the way they want regardless of how hard they work or how much knowledge they possess. That attitude seeps into the students and creates an attitude of apathy and laziness that is truly hindering our public schools. Teachers have become the enemies rather than partners in our kids’ success. When kids get out in the real world to look for a job, they will have to prove themselves just like everyone else.
Furthermore, having observed classes in a KIPP school, I can testify that these kids are not being asked to do slave labor or degrading tasks to earn their desks and books. They are simply being asked to do their assignments, take care of their materials and demonstrate good citizenship. But apparently, that is too much to ask in the eyes of some parents. What KIPP schools expect of their kids is not only reasonable, but it is also a set of behaviors and skills that will help them in the long run. Too many children come from unstructured environments with little discipline. KIPP schools simply seek to add structure to the kids lives in order to improve their chances at learning.
In the meantime, parents who think their child is being harmed by having to actually earn something for a change certainly do have the right to yank their kids out of a successful KIPP school and send them right back to the average-mediocre schools instead. But in my mind, I’d put my child’s education first.

By jamal

May 27, 2005 09:57 AM | Link to this

KIPP school are for the lost and the parent who don’t know how to work there local school system.I say shame on the parents.What a Hitler of a school who program kids base on lies.And please stop asking what’s up with KIPP YOU KNOW WHAT’S UP AND IT’S WRONG.PARENTS GET YOUR KIDS OUT.

By James

May 27, 2005 10:06 AM | Link to this

The writing style in Jackie’s post is remarkably similar to that of Eli, the “white man”. Notice how they both fail to add a space at the end of their sentences. It’s very unusual for two supposedly different people to make the same grammatical errors over and over again. Sly - I think you may be on to something.

By M.B.

May 27, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this

Again, as a teacher at a school in the same neighborhood as KIPP Ways, I can tesify that many of these kids are in serious need of structure, discipline and respect for others. Many of them already have the mental ability to succeed, but they just lack the structured environment that is needed to help them do well. Unfortunately, the standard public schools are too weighted down in bureaucracy and politics to really be able to make meaningful reforms to their discipline measures.
KIPP should be applauded because it is in many ways, an outlet for these kids to truly shine. Is KIPP a demanding school with high standards for its students? Absolutely. But we must remember: our kids will only rise to the level of expectations we set for them. If we set our expectations too low, then we shouldn’t be suprised with the result. The kids in West Atlanta are far more capable than we give them credit for, so let’s stop lowering the bar on them in the name of political correctness. Let’s set the standards of academics and behavior high for our kids and demand that they meet them. They deserve no less.

By Nikole

May 27, 2005 01:55 PM | Link to this

As an black female, I do agree with the saying that in our community and culture we love our sons and raise our daughters. Black males in particular would definitely benefit from a school like this and before segregation, black teachers held black students to much higher standards than today’s teachers do. I do not think that our ancestors would take offense to teaching our students how to survive and succeed in today’s world.
To Notmyproblem, while you make good points, your attitude only serves as a reminder to me that the dominant culture in this country believes that because slavery ended long ago, racism must not exist. The effects of slavery are still evident today, in your comments and in statistics that show that nearyly half of all blacks and Hispanics in GA do not graduate. Please believe that racism, as well as ethnocentrism is alive and well.

By Nikole

May 27, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this

My comment should read “before desegregation” as opposed to segregation.

By M.B.

May 27, 2005 03:21 PM | Link to this

Well stated Nikole. Too many do feel that racism ended long ago when segregation ended…which clearly is not the case. I think it is important to point out racism when it exists. But I also do not think that forcing students to earn their desks or to earn other privledges is racist…it’s just common sense. All students, regardless of race need to understand the value of hard work and citizenship. I’ve worked in both low-income communities and in wealthy suburban communities and i can tell you that the entitlement attitude of many parents and students today is not unique to any particular race.

Yes, the effects of racism, slavery, and segregation still linger today….but they are not the root of every single problem that black students face. Yes, all students are entitled to be treated fairly and to be given a fair chance in life. But the effects of racism and slavery do not excuse poor behavior, bad grades, and criminal behavior. What KIPP strives to do is to show kids how important hard work and citizenship are to being able to succeed in today’s society. And that’s not a bad thing. It doesn’t matter whether the principal is white, black, yellow, or green…these are lessons that need to be taught to our students.
To continue to hold low expectations for our students is the worst form of discrimination you can have. To suggest that a student not be held to higher standards because of the color of his/her skin is ludricrous. To do that is to practically admit to ourselves that we can’t do as well. Our kids are certainly capable of being smart and successful…we just have to get them to believe that they can. To continue to make ourselves out to be victims does not empower our kids…it hurts them by giving them excuses for not doing well. We must do better.

By callin out

May 27, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this

Now that you mention it, all of the postings from Cynthia, jamal, jackie, eli, etc. seem to be from ONE person using several different aliases.

Looks like a disgruntled parent who fooled us all. She is obviously on a mission against the school for some odd reason. Makes you wonder if any of this is true. The evidence suggests that the school is doing great.