Get Schooled

By Nick

May 19, 2005 11:17 AM | Link to this

As a future elementary school teacher, I have to admit that while that blog was kind of funny, it of course is uncalled for by a school to resolve to being that low. It is a shame that many parents do view schools as glorified daycares and should be held accountable for what their children do. But two wrongs don’t make a right. I agree that as teachers, we need to do what we can to help our students reach their full potential, but we can only do so much. A lot of it has to start at home. If a parent is letting his/her child not do homwork and overlook school discipline problems, they can’t blame the school for their child having academic/behavior problems. It reminds me of a letter I saw one time from a parent “forbidding” the school to reprimand his son no matter what he might do.
The bottom line is that as teachers and parents, we both want the same thing, our chldren to be the best they can, however communication is important in making that road as smooth as possible. That is another factor that is overlooked by both sides very often, we need to be a team, not at war with each ohter.

By lmao

May 19, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this

This is too cute - and also so true. I admire all who work in the school system. I honestly do not know how you handle the daily stress of your job. This includes everyone from the bus driver, lunch room staff, teachers, administrators, etc. Thank you for all that you do!

By Ann

May 19, 2005 12:02 PM | Link to this

Nick, if you read the whole article, you would have noticed that the message was an “urban myth.”

By Nick

May 19, 2005 12:18 PM | Link to this

I know its an urban myth, that is why i mentioned that I do find the humor in this article. Unfortunately the sad thing is that often times parents and teachers alike view communication with each other as two heads colliding instead of one team collaborating. Everyone should be held accountable for student behavior of any kind. This includes teachers, parents and depending on their age, the students too.

By Noni

May 19, 2005 12:33 PM | Link to this

Even though this is a “urban myth” it should be a wake up call for A LOT of parents today. We have to be responsible for what our children do and don’t do. If this responsibility is taken earlier, then when they become teenagers and young adults they will be ready for the real world and accept the right and the wrong in there life. I see so many children that don’t get any disciplined at home and because this doesn’t happen at home the same problems carry over into the schools. I have much respect for teachers and we should be finding a way to get them paid more money to want to keep teaching our children, our future leaders. I would also like to say THANKS A MILLION to ALL the teachers and everyone in the school system.

By Withhold name, please

May 19, 2005 12:41 PM | Link to this

My wife has had several students removed from her elementary school classroom this year. She expects students to do their work and be responsible for their actions, she grades all work, and she is unrelentingly consistent in it. Several parents thought that it was unfair for their children to be punished or lose privileges for not turning in work or not to make all A’s, and they had their children removed from her room. Her principal gave in to every demand. It’s a wonderful lesson these children are learning, isn’t it?

By t

May 19, 2005 12:52 PM | Link to this

We really need to have messages like this on the answering machines at school. It is hysterical how many of these calls actually come through. I had a student who missed 19 days and her parents wanted her to pass the class. I don’t think they were aware that their child had missed so many days of school. It would be wonderful if schools had a system where parents could call to make sure their children were in attendance. Schools have to realize that a students behavior comes from the parent so much of their attitude is passed from their parents.

By Kate

May 19, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this

I recently finished student teaching a a metro area high school.

I noticed that some teachers have a fear of parents, that parents will complain to administrators, parents will sue, parents will demand their child’s grade be changed, etc. I am not sure how often these things actually happen, but they do happen.

However, I noticed that most parents were interested in working with me, not against me, to help their child. Most parents did expect their child to do homework and behave in class. If I had to call a parent to discuss a behavior problem, the parents were generally supportive of my efforts, and with a little time, the behavior imporved. If I had to call about missing homework or low grades, parents wanted to get their kids back on track. They were not interested in an easy A, they were interested in the success of their child.

Sure, there are problem parents out there. However, most parents are good parents, and the teacher/parent relationship does not need to be so advisarial.

By Mary

May 19, 2005 01:00 PM | Link to this

While I sympathize with teachers who have to deal with children who have no intention of doing homework (or class work for that matter), I also have to say that dealing with some of the teachers my children have had in the past have been the most stressful things I’ve ever had to do. They seem more concerned with dress code (shirts tucked in, etc) than whether or not the kids are learning anything. Dress code has a place, but not in front of academics. It just causes disruption (in my opinion) to reprimand a child for violation of this code when it’s something as trivial as a shirt tail hanging out. When a child has a teacher who is not there for the love of teaching it makes it very hard to convince them that not all teachers are like that in the following years. Great teachers make kids love going to school and learning, bad teachers (and there are a few bad apples) make it a life long struggle for the kids they have touched early on.

By Amanda

May 19, 2005 01:03 PM | Link to this

As a fifth grade teacher, I am ready for summer break to recuperate mentally from the demands teaching puts on a person. My collegues are ready as well. :) I find this blog very funny, and I appreciate the uplift of spirit it brings. I do hope that Nick does learn to read everything COMPLETELY before he gets into the classroom. Otherwise, how will he be able to properly teach his students? Maybe teachers like him are what prompt some parents to respond as they do. Still, it is nice when a parent respects and supports the teacher whole-heartedly, and I think it’s necessary for parents to do so, until they’ve had a chance to discuss any misunderstanding with the teacher. It is sad, though, that most teachers dread parent letters or calls because so many try to make excuses or do not put priority on schooling. But, teachers, Be Consistent, Be Tough, Love your Students and their Parents! :)

By SY

May 19, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this

I think that this is a great message to put on the school answering machine. I’m a parent that takes the time I am suppose to with my children and it makes me sick that other parents don’t care. When children are out of school for whatever reason, they miss a lesson. When they return, the teacher has to reteach what that child missed so that they have a chance to pass the test on the topic. If parents didn’t make excuses for their kids and made them be responsible, you would be amazed at what all of these kids could accomplish.

I would not be put off at all if this was a message at my childs school. The only people who would get mad are the people who are doing wrong in the first place.

By Nick

May 19, 2005 01:47 PM | Link to this

I don’t know exactly what kind of comment that amanda is trying to make. I did mention that I was aware that the blog was an urban ledgend. I do agree with her however that it is a good thing when parents respect teachers wholeheartedly.

Kate makes some good points. I just finished my student teaching too and you are right, I have seen some teachers either get scared or ready for a battle when it comes to communicating with parents. In working outside of the field I have also heard parents voice similar fears when preparing to deal wihth parents. Communication is very important espcecially in a field like this. From what I have noticed, it seems that all is communicated is negative actions. Many teachers tend to not report to parents positive actions either. I belive that frequent and steady communication is important in keeping parent/teacher collaboration smooth. One of my plans to ensure this is to try my hardest to communicate weekly to parents, often in a short note to be sent home on weekends consisting of just a couple sentences, but long enough to make aware any high lights or lowlights that the student has faced that week.

The most important thing for parents and teachers alike is a positive attitude. If one side has a bad attitude, it makes it harder for things to be successful.

By MC

May 19, 2005 01:49 PM | Link to this

Awesome message! I will continue to hold my two boys accountable for their actions, and they are only 5 years and 7 months!! But for real, when they do get older I hope they have “real” teachers like the ones mentioned in the story. I hope the school system supports their teachers. It is time for parents to stop acting like babies and grow up themselves. The Bible says to “train up a child in the way he should go…and when he is old, he will not depart.”

By Miss Howard

May 19, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this

Reading is not the only thing fundamental, Comprehension is priceless. Nick sees the humor in the blog. But obviously some find it hard to comprehend his comments to understand that.

By Ann

May 19, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this

Nick, I think that the weekly note home sounds like a great idea. Do you have any suggestions for how I can put that into action with my 120 students?

By roger

May 19, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this

I thought that this was funny, but lets get real. It all goes back to the parents not being involved in their childs well being. Teachers have so much to do,and with some schools with the language barrier it’s makes it much harder. Do you relize that some lids that are just coming out of kindergarden and going to the first grade can’t even count to 100? Parents it’s your job to help your child excell, the teacher can’t hold their hand every step of the way. Many parents are just plain lazy.

By Nick

May 19, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this

Ann, you must be a high school teacher. Im looking to teacher upper elemtary school. It would probably be easier to do with 30 students than 120 lol. Realistically after only thinking for a minute or two, the best way I could think of making that work with that many students would be making some kind of permanent template on a computer, divide a page into four sections to save on paper, and this way you can type a sentence or two easily.
Granted, this is coming from a prospective elementary teacher with a fraction of the students you have so take my advice with a grain of salt but i just think that communication is very important regarless if it is upward, downward or lateral.

By Mike Slayton

May 19, 2005 02:06 PM | Link to this

*There is a deeper and more fundamental issue here that needs to be addressed: Educational Tracking! Children/parents with behavior issues often are not receiving the proper education.

Roughly 25% of all students will go to college and graduate. They need to have a college prepatory program in place to serve those students. The other 75% should be given a basic and fundamental education with an emphasis on learning a trade or a skill.

In the future, I predict that education (K-12) in the United States will become more specialized and individualized as the the children we teach. Currently, we have a magnet type model, as well as others, that address this type of educational ideology.

The sooner we wakeup to the fact that not ALL children are going to college, the better. We need to be more responsible to the end user of education: the student! After all, it is their education we are talking about.

Mike Slayton

Mike Slayton

By Ann

May 19, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this

I was listening to the radio this morning, and the DJ was talking about how the norms for men and women have changed in the past 20 years. To illustrate his point, he said that in the past, women held jobs like “teaching, waitressing, or being secretaries.” He continued to talk about how women have moved into professional careers now like being “doctors, lawyers, and business people.” No one thought that his comments were anything but true. Now to my point…if our society continues to view teachers as being low level non-professionals, then parents will continue to be disrespectful to teachers, and to question every professional decision that they make.

By Greg

May 19, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

Ann, As a former teacher, I can’t imagine having the time to send 120 notes home every week as well as all the other responsibilities your job entails. I would like to share with you a practice I exercised with my team teachers. In an effort to maintain positive communication with our parents, every Friday as soon as the school buses pulled out of the parking lot, the team teachers and I would each make a positive phone call home to a parent whose child had had a good week, brought up a grade, scored well on a test, showed positive leadership, etc. The reasons are endless. What a difference it makes to the parent that receives a call from the school that is all about praise for their child. One positive call home and you will find the parents will do back flips for you. Word also spreads amongst the students. Children will behave and perform better in hopes of getting a positive phone call home. The phone calls are especially motivating for the at risk student that has never had a positive phone call from the school. You would be amazed at what a simple phone call can do to improve relations with the parent and student.

By Nick

May 19, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

Greg, thanks for the advice. Like I said, any words of advice I give should definitely be taken with a grain of salt since I am so new to the field. Postivies are often so overlooked it seems.

By Kate

May 19, 2005 02:46 PM | Link to this

Mr. Slaton,

This country has had tracking for a very long time. The problem with tracking is that students tend to get into tracks along the lines of their class, gender, and race than they do by their actual abilities or aspirations. In fact, students get put into tracks before they are really able to demonstrate their abilities and aspirations.

I think magent programs are great. They give some kids some wonderful oppertunities. HOwever, I do not think it is a good model for the entire education system

By abc

May 19, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this

Teachers aren’t considered ‘professionals’ in the same sense as doctors and lawyers simply because they are not.

Teachers don’t get a lot of respect from parents because such respect is usually not warranted. Nearly indecipherable correspondence from them, made so by obvious ignorance of grammar and spelling, and their extremely childish behavior — no doubt from spending too many waking hours around children — are a couple of examples as to why this is.

The schools have changed as much or more than families have in the past 30-40 years. The decline in quality of education over that time period has produced a lot of lousy teachers and administrators. Cry and complain all you want, then go have a 2-3 month vacation. Gee, rough job.

By Ann

May 19, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this

Greg, that’s a great idea. Thanks!

By Another Teacher

May 19, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this

Good stuff, Patti - I’ve seen the e-mail before, and I laugh everytime!

to “t”: In addition to automated phone calls home, Cobb County now uses a program called i-parent with which the parents can go online and check grades and attendance. It’s not a perfect solution, but it’s another good tool in the toolbox.

To Kate: I, too, have had many positive interactions with parents. I’ve said in other posts that many of my parents are concerned and hard-working. Unfortunately a lot of them are stretched too thin as well, working two jobs, carting kids around, etc. And also to Nick: an initial positive communication home can go a long way in facilitating good future home-school communication. Imake it a point to cal 1 or 2 parents weekly to let them know that their child is great (or if they have improved from a prior negative situation). It feels really good on my end to do that as well.

To Ann: there are free websites that allow teachers to post a simple webpage. I have mine at schoolnotes.com. With that and e-mail, it makes it a little easier to communicate, especially good things.

To Mary: there is nothing I hate more than to enforce dress code. But unfortunately, if we don’t, two things happen. One, WE get in trouble. Administrators feel you are not doing your job. And two, some dress code violations are also disruptive to the classroom (think girl in a too short skirt - what hormonal boy is thinking about his homework then?).

General note: my children’s elementary school had every teacher, student, AND parent sign a contract outlinging 5 expectations for each at the start of the year. I liked to post mine on the refrigerator and refer to it during the course of the school year. It was a good reminder for me and my children - in their years at elementary school, they never had a teacher that didn’t live up to their end, and we worked hard to live up to ours.

Finally, as someone who has been on both sides of the fence, there are a few weeds, but there’s a lot more good grass growing. In other words, as a parent, my children have had mostly outstanding teachers. As
a teacher, most of my parents have been great.

By Kate

May 19, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this

BTW, Ann. I bet the DJ did not know that both teaching and clerical (secretarial) work use to be almost exclusively male professions. It wasn’t until the Great Depression that women started to become secretaries. Then, it was only because firms could pay women less than they paid men.

By Nick

May 19, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

ABC, spend a month in a school and after putting a lot of 6am-7pm days doing work related material (counting what you do at school and at home) then try telling me that teaching is an easy job. I would love to keep a log of the hours I will spend doing work related stuff in my first year from july to july. I guarantee that it will be a lot more than 2,000 (40 hrs x 50 weeks). I deal with this attitude from my stepdad who thinks teachers are just a bunch of whiny liberals who babysit and take “real jobs from good people” in the summer (plumbing, constrcution, etc.)

By Another Teacher

May 19, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this

Here we go with the teacher bashing again…

To “abc”: Do you have children in school? If so, do you help out at school? Do you do your part at home?

If you don’t have children at school, then do you know some one who is a teacher? Do you do any community work with children?

What happened in your (or your loved ones) educational experience to make you so down on teachers?

All teacher I know have a 4 year degree, and most have a master’s or better. Don’t tell me that an educational degree is easier, because most of the people I work with (myself included)have their 4 year in something else (mine was science) and then took additional coursework to get their teaching certificate.

The summers off are highly overrated. First of all, most teachers I know work summer school or some other part-time job to make ends meet. Those that don’t work are often attending school (I will be taking courses full-time towards my master’s degree).

I work about 15 hours a week at home during the course of the school year. If you multiply that times 36 (the number of weeks in a school year) you get 540 hours. Divided by 8 equals 67.5. That’s the numbers of extra days I’ve worked. 8 (weeks off) times 5 (days) equals 40. I’m still not compensated in either time or money for 27.5 days.

Like I said, “overrated.”

By Cathy

May 19, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this

To abc:

I would love to see you teach a class for awhile and then see if you still think this job is easy. True, we have 2-3 months off, but those months are spent in staff development classes to better ourselves as teachers.

I would like to say more about your post, but I wouldn’t want to be deemed childish.

By abc

May 19, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this

Yes, I have children in school. Yes, I volunteer at the school. Yes, I work with my kids on their homework and projects at home. I’m keenly aware that until this generation of students, none of that was very necessary. When I was a kid, the schools didn’t need that kind of parental assistance.

Everyone works long hours. Teachers tend to do so by choice. Teachers seem to have more of an emotional attachment to their jobs than other fields. Your typically self-righteous tone is testimonial to that.

People in my family are teachers. I know the summer coursework, if undertaken at all, is easy in the extreme — something like how to use PowerPoint or something similarly pedestrian.

By David

May 19, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

Cathy, i’ll say it for you hun…just say the word….

By Nick

May 19, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this

While many of us choose to utilize our summers to keep us busy, some choose to keep their workloads light. There is nothing wrong with choosing to take a light schedule in the summer. Just by reading what I have all day today, I wouldnt label anyone here as self-righteous or having an emotional attachment. Generally teachers tend to love their jobs despite the stress and the workload that comes with it. Most would rather stay and do their best to make the field better than bail for another profession when times get rough.

By FunkyGee

May 19, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this

Hey Nick - you can’t just “bail to another field”. You’d actually need some skills. Not just getting a college degree and a guaranteed teaching position. Plus the private sector needs to see results from your efforts - or you’re gone. Ya can’t just show up and expect a lifelong appointment like teachers get. Most can’t habndle a real job.

By Ann

May 19, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this

David, go ahead and say it.

By Nick

May 19, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this

I also think that if you come on to a board populated largely by teachers past or present and bash the profession, ther would bea bunch of backlash. I am sure if i went on a similar message board populated by lawyers and went on about how they dont care about their clients, just money (attnlaywers: this is not true at all. I have tons of respect for your profession just using it as an example) or went onto a mechanic message board and flamed mechanics for being uneducated (ditto for mechanics, you have tons of respect from me). I would expcet to get slammed over and over by people.

By Another Teacher

May 19, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this

To “abc” - I’m glad you’re involved,but you still didn’t answer the question about why you are so down on teachers. I am especially surprised given that you have family members who teach.

You said, “…unitl this generation of students, none of that was very necessary…” I don’t think that’s true. My grandmother spoke of working at the dinner table, surrounded by her brothers and sisters, as my great-grandfather assisted them in their “home lessons.” I can’t tell by the use of the word “students” if the extra help was needed because of poor teaching, poor parenting, or both.

Teaching is not my first career. I was in the military (30 days paid leave per year), restaurant management (long, long hours - 50+ per week, and not Monday through Friday), as well as my time as a full-time student, stay at home mother, and part time jobs.

I’m not complaining about the hours I work - I was illustrating the fact that a teacher’s hours are distributed through the year differently than other jobs, and that to use the “summer off” argument inherently disregards this fact and is unfair.

I’m not as emotionally attached to the job (since it is not my first career) as I am disgusted with the constant barrage of insults to teaching. My “typical self-righteous tone” was actually in defense of what I feel is the “typical illogical argument.”

BTW - I learned PowerPoint on my own, and my summer class is Physics.

By Nick

May 19, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this

I also think that if you go onto a board populated by people in a certain profession and bash it, a lot of backlash is to be expected. If I did the same on a board populated by people in a different field, I would expect to get a lot of backlash too.

By Another Teacher

May 19, 2005 03:42 PM | Link to this

FunkyGee - if the “Doc” Nease situation should’ve taught you anything, it’s that there are no guarantees, in teaching or in anything else.

By just me

May 19, 2005 03:44 PM | Link to this

This is not to start another arguement but just to make a simple point. SOME (not nearly all) teachers and school administrations do not take into account the fact that SOME (although it be few) kids are actually absent a lot for very legitimate reasons.

I was forced to take much of my classwork as hospital/homebound due to severe illness when I was younger. I went back and did all the work and consistently excelled on all of it. However, I was not allowed the same privledges (such as awards or exempting from final exams) solely based on my absences because that was the “policy.”

The fact is that I did all of the same work in a portion of the time (since it was all crammed into make up work), continued to make A’s and B’s throughout the years, all the while fighting—with the administration that did not want to provide long term teaching (even though that is something they claim they have for severely ill children) as well as my own health.

I also realize that this means extra hours for these teachers that are coming into the home or hospital to teach. I have no qualms with any of them. In fact, I admire them all the more and give a big hats off and thank you to them as I would not have ever been able to make the grades and everything that I did if it were not for them.

I am not whining about things in any way here. I just think that the policies need to be reviewed on a much more case by case basis when the circumstances are extreme. I am SO grateful for those teachers that understood and worked so diligently to make sure that equal—not special—treatment was made whenever they could.

By Nick

May 19, 2005 03:45 PM | Link to this

Please forgive the double post and the lack of good spelling/grammar, my computer is having a mind of it’s own right now.

By Another Teacher

May 19, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this

Thank you Nick!

Because the majority of my educational experiences have been positive (my own, my children’s, my own teaching), I take offense to the persistent bashing - I’ve only been teaching for 4 years, but I have been defending the profession since I was in high school!

I have a very good friend who is a lawyer - he’s terrific! I have friends who are in the construction business - they know an honest day’s work. I try to be truthful, but fair and positive in my posts, and it bothers me when others aren’t.

By Kate

May 19, 2005 03:55 PM | Link to this

ABC,

So, you admit that teachers are hardworking. Thank you.

Emotionally attached= self-righteous?

Power Point classes? And to think that I spent my summer writing about global economic theories. What a fool I’ve been.

Parents have always helped kids with their homework, and they have always been involved in school. It is not just this generation.

Parental involvement improves a child’s chance of success, not just in school, but in other factors of life as well. It really tells your child that you care about what is going on in his or her life. It’s an act of love.

Wow, ABC, you are so angry.

By Nick

May 19, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this

So Funky Gee, teachers don’t have other skills? I know several who have or had second jobs in the past to get by on and could do it solely if they needed to. I know many teachers old and young who are also accomplished office workers, receptionists, contractors, plumbers, butchers, and many other professions. I myself have spend 10 years in the grocery business and did it to put myself through college and the only reason I am not a manager now is because I am leaving to pursue a job in the education field. While it may be tempting, don’t generalize.

By SY

May 19, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this

ABC,

I don’t have a clue where you were brought up, but my mother was very involved in school. If my mother had to be called up to the school for a particular reason, I was pleading with the principal to call the cops as well. I did not want to go home. When it came to homework, my mother checked every vocabulary word, every math problem, every aspect of my science project (which I hated). I couldn’t get away anything. Your parents obviously were not that involved and that is sad.

By abc

May 19, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this

I thought the topic was why parents don’t like their children’s teachers. I’ve offered some reasons why.

Nick, the reasons I’ve offered are a couple reasons why I’m down on teachers. These are based on my own experiences only.

Kate, I’m not angry. I’m just offering the perspective that was posed as today’s topic.

Your collective defensiveness is also typical of trying to deal with schools and teachers these days. Such a reaction serves to obscure the actual topic. One is faced with simply complying with whatever is the schools’ and teachers’ program and agenda.

By TT

May 19, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this

To abc:

If you find teachers lazy, whiny, and pedestrian, then why don’t you home school your children? I have a hunch that your little darlings are the students dumped off at school for babysitting rather than learning.

As the daughter of a teacher, I have seen firsthand the tireless efforts my mother put into mentoring students whose parents were too busy or too lax to ensure that their children made wise, responsible decisions. She spent many summers tutoring problem children and attending classes on learning disabilities, child psychology and counseling, as well as late nights composing comments that parents never read.

Teachers are too often accountable for parenting their own children and everyone else’s. Parents that push their responsibilities onto teachers are responsible for one thing: the demise of our education system.

By abc

May 19, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this

Oh, c’mon SY! Sad, is it! I carried a 4.0 through high school, summa cum laude through college. I work in a highly respected field and am compensated in the high 6 figures. Puhleeeze.

If you want an example of self righteousness, SY has provided it.

By Carl

May 19, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this

I am a male high school teacher in rural Georgia who just read Ann’s post about teachers not being respected or treated as professionals or it being a woman’s job and I am responding to it with some thoughts. 1. We made the choice to enter the world of teaching for whatever reason. 2. We teach in the public schools that are run by the government, which makes us bureaucrats. Doctors and lawyers aren’t bureaucrats (yet).
3. I consistently read posts by teachers who mention how much time they put into their jobs. How often do we hear doctors an lawyers complain about how much they work? I know the teacher’s complaints usually revolve around the pay, but refer to numbers 1 & 2. 4. I also hear many teachers talk about how we should be unionized with the ability to strike. How does that make us be more respected? 5. If teachers were really treated on the same level as doctors and lawyers and such, why doesn’t the AJC have a blog about medicine or the law?

Just some thoughts

By abc

May 19, 2005 04:30 PM | Link to this

TT,

I disagree. The problem with education is not the parents or families, but the schools, teachers and administrators inability to effectively teach. This inability stems from a progressively less effective educational system nationwide, producing teachers and administrators that are ill-equipped to deal with the reality of education today.

Your petty insults and constant complaining about parents is a thin smokescreen that obscures the facts from noone.

By Nick

May 19, 2005 04:31 PM | Link to this

Like I said before, if you put down a profession to several people who are a part of it, backlash is normal. Someone else said before that the profession has a couple bad apples. While this may be true, its not fair to slam everyone else in it. I think that while all professions have their bad apples, the good ones outweigh the bad ones no matter the field. We have all had bad expeiences with people from various fields (bad laywer, bad mechanic, even a bad fast food clerk) but that doesn’t say anything about the hundres of good people in those fields for every bad one. I am usually not around my computer this often during the day but it has been real debating this issue, regardless if you agreed or disagreed with me. Have a good night everyone!!

By Nick

May 19, 2005 04:41 PM | Link to this

carl, you have inspired me to make one more quick comment, the debate on unions is a whole new topic in itself. On one hand some feel that the presence of a union is keeping teachers from gaining the respect that other fields get, while some feel that it is necessary for teachers to have unions to hang on to the respect that they do have. While many feel that we deserve more recognition, GA has it good for teachers compared to other states. Here in Florida, with my masters degree I would start at close to 25k a year. I know someone in south New Mexico who started at 19 k a year. The Union debate would be a good idea for another day though, good night everyone.

By Jennifer

May 19, 2005 04:42 PM | Link to this

abc,

“The problem with education is not the parents or families, but the schools, teachers and administrators inability to effectively teach.”—which stems from sue-happy parents who swoop in to protect lil’ Johnny at the drop of a hat. Dentention? Not for my child. If you don’t provide his transportation, I’ll sue. A zero for a missing assignment? Not for my child. If you don’t change his grade, I’ll have you fired.

I heard each of the first 8 statements on the fake message from many parents when I taught. If school teachers and administrators are becoming ineffective, it’s a reaction to the climate created, in large part, by parents.

By michlynn

May 19, 2005 04:53 PM | Link to this

To abc,

You’ve avoided answering the question posed to you: why don’t you homeschool your children if you’re so dissatisfied with every aspect of the educational system?

By Devil's Advocate

May 19, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this

ABC,

Are you just on here trying to fire people up?

What happened to you as you grew up that made you so down on teachers?

I think most teachers are neither heroes nor villians, but the constant criticism and insults about teachers may drive some of the better teachers out of teaching. Do you think society will be better or worse off then?

Do you really believe that poor teachers are the reason that the educational system is “slipping”? You don’t think it might be that the kids in a lot of “failing” public schools start our behind in life? In the bad old days, they might drop out by ninth grade. Now the school is held responsible if they don’t graduate after four years of high school.

By TT

May 19, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this

abc:

Did you achieve a 4.0 in high school and graduate college summa cum laude all on your own, or did you receive support from adult role models (such as parents and teachers) who nurtured your talents and looked out for your best interest. Our biographies are the same, but I give some credit where credit is due.

And if you do not feel that our public education system is not effective in teaching our children, then you can do what my working-class parents did. You can toil so that your children can attend a quality private school.

At the very least, I hope that you teach* your children a respect for educators and elders that you seem to be lacking. It must be all of that anger and arrogance you’re carrying, it leaves little room to appreciate the dignity of people in other, worthy professions.

By abc

May 19, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this

Regarding homeschooling, I can’t do that, because I’m a single parent and have to make a living.

By abc

May 19, 2005 05:07 PM | Link to this

Devil’s Advocate,

My opinion of teachers isn’t the result of my experiences while growing up. I was lucky to have outstanding teachers. Rather, my opinion is the result of dealing with my children’s teachers, from 1992 to the present.

As far as driving teacher’s away from their jobs: noone is driving them away. They’re choosing that option for themselves. Hopefully they’ll be replaced with the products of non-southern colleges and universities, which have historically always been of inferior quality compared to those of the east coast or midwest.

I’d respond to your 3rd paragraph, but it’s so nebulously written that I’m unsure what you were trying to say.

By Nikki

May 19, 2005 05:12 PM | Link to this

Oh, show love for the teachers. They all deserve it. For it is the teachers who have to deal with them longer than we see them in a day. I have two sons, my youngest son’s teacher is the best. She caring, and concerned. She communicates EVERYTHING. She knows my son so well. He has had behavior issues but she has been the one teacher who has never turned her back on him. She showed him RESPECT, and that she cared. Once he felt as if she was not against him, he began to soar. He’s on Honor Roll and although he still struggles with some behavior issues; he has improved tremendously. Now, my older son’s teachers are both new to the school in which they teach. One is a rookie, this is her very first year teaching. At first, I must admit I didn’t particularly know if they would be a good fit for my son. But they’ve proven to be great. My son is stubborn and they’ve worked with him, he’s also very shy, but that is all over. He is filled with so much confidence you’d think he were SUPERMAN. I love these teachers for their hard work and DEDICATION. Teaching is a passion not just a job for these ladies and I truly appreciate them for that. Kids’ have difficulties and teachers must realize that teaching is far from a walk in the park. When they know that they can be the difference makers in a child’s life they step up to the plate. The teachers that care really show they do.

By David

May 20, 2005 09:11 AM | Link to this

ABC , first of all , yes, some teachers are being driven from their jobs. Secondly, as far as your STUPID comment about non-southern universities, in order to be a successful teacher you really need 3 things: 1)LOVE KIDS 2)Have a strong command of your subject area 3)Administrative and Parental support. It’s sort of like my first year coaching high school football. The head coach said “David, the only skills you need to succeed as a coach are the following: love the kids, Know your fundamentals, and hope you have some talent…because you can’t make chickent salad out of chicken s**!!!” So it really doesn’t make a damn where one gets his education degree.

By Jim

May 20, 2005 09:22 AM | Link to this

The day our society abolishes government schools is the day we take back the right to educate or own children. The sad truth of the matter is that our society wants 14 years of baby sitting for our children while we achieve our selfish two income or welfare family dreams, both of which are encouraged by a government of, by, and for the people.

By Shauna

May 20, 2005 09:27 AM | Link to this

David,

Why are you letting ABC upset you? We all know that he is full of sh*t. His last comment proved it without a doubt.

BTW, I’m having no luck in the job search. Maybe I’m expecting the process to move faster than it should. I know that I have to find a way to get certified first. But, I don’t know what to do in the mean time. Any suggestions?

By william

May 20, 2005 09:32 AM | Link to this

abc, After reading the reactions you have gotten from so many people (who I tend to agree with in large part), I suddenly realized that you are doing what I do on occassion. When I become frustrated with parents or students, I focus on the one or two who I have allowed to screw up my day, and I forget the ones who praise me for what is really only a small kindness that anyone would extend. I also forget about the one kid who came in this morning and told me about how much he appreciates that I remembered that his brother was in Iraq. Fortunately I have a summer (actually nine days) off where I can rest a little, and then start with a better approach. Hopefully, your children will soon have teachers who can communicate to you in a more appropriate way what most teachers want to communicate. In the school system where I teach, we are currently battling the us vs. them mindset between teachers and parents, teachers and the county school office, and parents and the county school office. At some point we will all realize that working against each other doesn’t help anybody. At some time one of us has to swallow our pride and get past our anger.

By DB

May 20, 2005 09:34 AM | Link to this

abc, Back to the topic at hand, I’m a teacher, and I don’t believe that parents and teachers should even communicate(in high school anyway) unless it’s absolutely necessary. All this communication stuff is a bunch of fluffy crap that only contributes to the blame game we play in America. In order for a kid to become self-sufficient, confident, and mature, parents should leave them on their own to succeed, which I do with my own kids. The more they learn to deal with the “injustices” of life during school, the more they are prepared for it. I teach in private school, and I believe, in most cases, the public system makes our children less prepared for life than if they were to drop out. I taught in public school only to realize it’s not even worth the time. However, there are a few good public schools out there. The system also creates terrible teachers. Good teachers do two things. They leave because they are completely burnt out because of the disrespect, or they get fired because they hold students to high expectations. So, in essence, there are too many teachers left over that are bad teachers, but that’s not to say all teachers are bad. I’ve done many things in life from being a garbage man to running my own business. Although teaching is the toughest I’ve done so far, I do it because our kids need to learn that you get out of life only what you put into it. It’s a job that somebody has to do. If we all ignore it, our country will continue to go down the drain.
Whether or not teachers are whiners, they do deserve more respect than they get. As for pay, the pay is good considering a teacher’s pay is for 10 months of service(although it is truly a 12 month job if you’re a good teacher). And I hardly consider taking an “Advanced Molecular Genetics” course over the summer learning how to run a mouse or use powerpoint.

But those workshops and watered down Masters are a result of the lack of respect for teachers in general, exactly what you demonstrate. The accountability has be so far shifted the direction of the teachers that we have all these requirements of staff development, and then Masters degrees for education and workshops are watered down so all teachers can meet the requirements. We wouldn’t want to make a larger teacher shortage, now would we? Then, in all the bureaucratic preaching, the students are the ones suffering because no one dares to hold them truly accountable for their actions and education. Mechanics get more respect than teachers. I used to run my own repair shop, so I know.

As for you, I understand some of your opinions, but I must say it is quite unprofessional to “taunt” teachers as you do. And it’s wrong to lump all teachers in the same boat. I will stop there because I don’t want to become unprofessional or childish. But to me, it sounds like you’d make a great teacher because of your no-nonsense attitude and your obvious level of intelligence.

All I know is that there’s nothing anyone can say to make me feel bad about teaching. I can sleep at night knowing I help change a few. And I know it’s not as easy as everyone thinks, or there wouldn’t be a teacher shortage.

So why don’t you teach?

By Sly

May 20, 2005 09:36 AM | Link to this

Shauna - maybe your no luck in the job search is an indicator of your attractiveness as a candidate. Oh wait. Anybody can be a teacher - I forgot. Maybe you typoed your phone number on your resume.

By Shauna

May 20, 2005 10:00 AM | Link to this

Sly,

First of all, I don’t believe that the post was directed at you. Second of all, why the harsh words for me? Are you trying to make this personal? You don’t know anything about me, my background, my love for children, or my education level. So, with so much ignorance about my personal life, why would you make that childish assumption. Maybe someone like you is the reason our children can’t grow up, their parents aren’t grown.

By john

May 20, 2005 10:01 AM | Link to this

Just a question for Nick…At what age do you think that a child should be held responsible for his/her actions? If you don’t hold children responsible for their actions from the time that they are old enough to walk and talk then you will have them trying to take advantage of you and trying to put the blame on someone else when they get caught. If the child is in school he/she must must be made to take responsibility or else we will raise another generation that feels they should be given everything with no consequences for any unacceptable behavior. Work ethic, honesty, courtesy, and cooperation must be learned they are not inborn traits. I spent most of my working life as a supervisor for a large corporation and for the last few years had to deal with the results of today’s too liberal parenting practices. 18 year old children demanding respect, please, you have to earn respect you are not born with it, You deserve courtesy and fairness as much as is possible in a work place, you have to earn respect by the way you perform your job and treat your fellows. I have been teaching for three years now and find that most parents want the best for their children but don’t expect the child to do anything to earn the good things. In the climate of political correctness the tired old saw of “it isn’t fair” is constantly whined by students and parents alike, hate to tell you all but “life ain’t fair” and it never will be, the sooner you accept that fact and assume responsibility for your actions the better off you will be. Parents need to defend their children when something is blatantly unfair but need to accept the fact that everything can’t possibly be fair.

By Beverly

May 20, 2005 10:02 AM | Link to this

I absolutely hate one of my daughter’s teachers. She is the rudest person I have ever met. It doesn’t matter. I present a united front to my daughter and back up the teacher’s requirements for the class because in life you will meet people you don’t like but the work still has to get done. Most of my daughter’s teachers are wonderful, hardworking professionals who love their jobs. But they will not be successful if you are not involved as a parent. That doesn’t just entail showing up and volunteering. It means supporting the teachers’ guidelines and making sure your kid is respectful and follows the rules. It doesn’t matter if you think the rules are stupid, they still have to follow them. I totally disagree with abc. Most teachers are great at what they do and it is a tough job. You couldn’t pay me enough to deal with these little prima donnas who come in hyped up on “nutritious” breakfast foods such as cereal bars and pop-tarts. Too many of these kids are snotty and spoiled. They pick up from their parents that the teacher is a lowly person who doesn’t deserve much respect. These kids are also smart enough to know that they can challenge a teacher’s authority because their parents will go right along with it. As parents we are our kids’s first teachers; everything else is gravy. It is not somebody else’s job to raise your kids and instill basic values like respect and consideration. Shame on you for bashing teachers when the truth is, you are a p**-poor parent.

By Shauna

May 20, 2005 10:08 AM | Link to this

Beverly,

Way to go. You let is all out didn’t you girl.

By Mike

May 20, 2005 10:08 AM | Link to this

I have a suggestion for Shauna and her fairy tale postings. She was upset because she didn’t score well on the SAT, only a 1420. She didn’t test well but made all A’s when she didn’t have to take standardized tests. She is well educated but can’t find a job in teaching. Maybe it is because she isn’t certified, everything that anyone does, suffers from, or thinks, she has done it first, done it bigger, suffered more, learned more, been discriminated against more and perservered more than anyone this side of Oprah, give me a break.

By Nick

May 20, 2005 10:09 AM | Link to this

Shauna, don’t let some of these ignorant posters bother you. Another reason people leave the profession is because they can’t handle the 11-12 hour days that are often required. Many 9-5 people who leave their jobs at work when they go home wouldn’t understand.

Back to your job search, a lot of districts have yet to finsish their budgets yet and dont want to start hiring when they don’t know what openings they will/wont have. In the meantime, call/email the GAPSC and try your best to fill in the missing pieces on the way to certification.

By Nick

May 20, 2005 10:20 AM | Link to this

John

I do think as a society that we need to make our students more accountable as indiviuduals to succeed. I am also speaking from an elementary teacher frame of mind here. While we must begin to hold our student accountable from day one, the level of accountablity that is placed on a 6 year old shouldn’t be quite the same as that of a 17 year old. I do feel that in elementary school is where the blueprint for succesful individuals is laid out, however as teachers there is only so much we can do, parent support is crucial to raising children to be all that they can be. I know from my own experiences that the majority of parents out there are in fact supportive and willing to work with teachers. There are a few who see it as a war of some kind. I can understand the quickness to get defensive and want to come to the rescue when your child gets a bad grade on an assignment or gets in trouble for misbehavior, but instead of teaching children to pick themselves up and put forth a better habit to make sure negative behavior doesen’t happen again, some of these parents come to the rescue and demand an explanation of why their son/daughter got marked wrong b/c 3x4 does not equal 14 or why their kid lost recess for telling their teacher to F* off.

But like I said, students do need to be held accountable for their actions but as teachers AND parents, we need to act as positive role models to encourage such behavior.

By Shauna

May 20, 2005 10:24 AM | Link to this

Mike,

Again, you don’t know me either. So shut up!! I think that David understands what I am asking. I know that I have to be certified you idiot. I even know of certain programs for people like me (ex-military). One of the programs said that I could start teaching while I am being certified, if I chose, but where I am a little confused about is where the most need is in schools. Every county that I have spoken to needs teacher in subjects that I cannot teach. I’m not a science or social studies teacher. I feel that I would be doing a child a huge injustice to even think about it.

And, as far as my SAT score goes, if you had read my post, you would have realized that I was going through some perfectionist issues. Obviously a 1420 isn’t perfect. I had to learn to be happy with that and now that I am older, I realize what a great score that is. No, I haven’t been through everything that is posted, but I have been through some of the things that we talk about and I feel that teachers need to know that there are students that need extra help. I got my “A”s and “B”s because my teachers did care and help.

My posts are also to let teachers know that there are parents and students out there who do support them and their struggles. Get a life and get off of my back. You are a real jerk, you know that.

By Parent

May 20, 2005 10:24 AM | Link to this

Beverly, Will you marry me? You took the words right from my mouth! Absolutely wonderful! I just returned from delivering gifts to my children’s schools. Not only have the teachers been great, but so have the support staff at the schools. As a way to say thanks for a job well done, I felt it was necessary for me to keep to my custom of saying thanks to all who help me positively affect my children and others. In life, you will find bad people in all areas, but the only way I can see to make it more palatable is to recognize and acknowledge the good, rather than accentuate the bad. I applaud all within our school systems who must tolerate those who don’t seem to appreciate them. Your work is noble and your rewards will be many. Although it may not be realized now, you have positively touched the lives of many.

By SY

May 20, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this

Sly and Mike,

Leave Shauna alone. What is your problem with her anyway. We are all here to help. If you’re not willing to help, get off the blog.

By Miss Howard

May 20, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this

Shauna Nick is right. Alot of schools wait until the last minute to hire uncertified teachers because they take more out of their personal budget. Have thought about going back to school for a certification program? I know that West Ga and Mercer University offer certification programs with night classes. Also you might want to try networking, seeing if you can find anyone in your circle that might have a close relationship with a principal who might be willing to hire you. Also I would target Title I schools. You can find a list by going on the different school systems’ websites. Those schools get more funding and can afford to hire uncertified teachers. Also see what schools are hiring by again looking at the different school systems’ websites and contact the school principals directly where you see a job opening that fits you.

By Tia

May 20, 2005 10:35 AM | Link to this

It is my job as a parent to keep up with what is going on in the classroom of my child. I have had the spectrum of teachers. Teachers who I really did not like and teachers if I could clone I would. The only time I ever had a problem with a teacher is when she took the authoritative role in our relationship as opposed to the partnership I like to have. I don’t send my daughter to school to be parented by the staff. I make it very clear that I am in their corner. Even if I believe something could have been handled differently, I stand in staunch support of her role as be the authority in the classroom. I look at my mother’s high school students who are about to graduate who are sorely unprepared for the reality of life due to the fact that their parents have rescued them from suffering the consequences of their actions. And parents have put teachers in a predicament that does not allow them prepare them for real life.

By David

May 20, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this

Shauna, I can probably help you also. The personnel director lives in my neighborhood and is a good friend of mine (most of the time lol)…i am in an east metro county…you can teach on a provisional certificate…at least it used to be that way..i don’t think they have ended that…you can have my job…i resigned last month after 19 years…get back to me and i’ll see what i can do…thanks,

By yesiamworried

May 20, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this

What gets me, is that of the 10 5th graders who didn’t pass the CRCT at my child’s school, 6 of them have parents who haven’t graced the door of the school this year, so they didn’t bother to show up for the many meetings that were held about the CRCT. Their children probably won’t pass the test on the retry and then they will blame the school.

I am over the trash that masquarades as parents and I have much empathy for teachers that have to deal with them. Are teachers perfect? No, but some of these parents are just the worse. (And I am a parent who is really tired of dealing with uninvolved, non committed parents.)

By SY

May 20, 2005 10:56 AM | Link to this

Patti,

How can I get my information to David without everyone else seeing it?

By DB

May 20, 2005 11:15 AM | Link to this

SY or Shauna: I assuming you’re the same person. Just ask David to post his email address, and email him. Or sign up for a new, junk email address on Yahoo, and post it on the blog so he can email you.

By MIchlynn

May 20, 2005 11:17 AM | Link to this

To abc,

I’m still confused. Yesterday, you claimed that you are well educated, and make in the high 6 figures. Isn’t that enough money for you to send your children to a private school? I’m pushing this because it would be better for your children to be in an environment that you respect, instead of having them go to a public school, and hearing you bash their teachers on a daily basis.

As a teacher, let me just tell you that our jobs are difficult enough without having students in the classroom whose parents think that we’re incompetent people who couldn’t find another job!

If I sound passionate about this - it is because I am. Wouldn’t you want your children to spend the bulk of their day with people who are passionate about them and their future? If you honestly believe what you’ve posted here, it is abusive for you to send your children to public school. I would never send my child into a situation in which I felt the adult in charge was incompetent.

Keep in mind that the hard-working, wonderful teachers are not the ones who make the news - but, we do exist.

By Kate

May 20, 2005 11:37 AM | Link to this

Shauna,

It seems that the high-stakes testing areas are the ones where there is the highest need. That would be English, math, and science. Also, foriegn language teachers and ESOL teachers. I don’t know if you can teach ESOL on provisional though. I have never known anyone who has.

Best of luck.

By David

May 20, 2005 11:38 AM | Link to this

well shauna i don’t mind giving out my personal email address…hell i get enough junk mail anyway…balddawg2@yahoo.com

By Gil Gibson

May 20, 2005 11:38 AM | Link to this

Just two comments on issues fairly early in this blog:

When I was stationed at Bangor, WA., I worked with a father who had received truancy notification regarding his daughter, threatening him with legal action if she didn’t attend school. He tried to call the school each day to see if his daughter was actually there. The school administration repsonded that it would be “a violation of her privacy rights” to tell him if she was in the building. It isn’t ALWAYS the parents’ fault.

Second: historically, there are four professions: Medicine, Law, Ministry and….. Education. Just doing something for money doesn’t make you a “professional.”

By David

May 20, 2005 11:41 AM | Link to this

shauna i guess that came out wrong…i didn’t mean you would be sending me junk mail…d

By Lisa Setliff

May 20, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this

Nick,

I have taught for several years now. I used to have your same opinions and views. Teach for a few years and then decide how you feel.

By Tia

May 20, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this

To ABC,

Speak for yourself. The vast majority of parents that I come across in many different scenarios have a tremendous respect for teachers and their profession. I could not and choose not to do what they do and truly admire them for their choice. To say that someone does not respect the person to whom they allow to be in the presence of their children for the majority of the day is lunacy. Only those who devalue teachers and yet and still send their children to be taught by them are truly the problem. You get what you give. I get the most out of the teachers and administration at my child’s school because I am extremely involved. I am a single mom as well and I don’t use that as an excuse to be at my child’s school regularly. Also, what most people do not know about the school systems is you have the ability to “shop around”. My daughter does not attend our home school. I was unimpressed by their acheivements. I did some research and had her placed in a school much more to my liking, outside of our area.

By Another Teacher

May 20, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this

Shauna - I took the provisional route to becoming a teacher. I had a science degree, and I ended up working in a sort of science-ed support type of job. It was through my visits to schools and working with teachers that I decided to try a profession that I had often thought about, but always talked myself out of - in large part because of the negative opinions similar to those expressed in this blog.

Anyway, I was able to get a teaching job while I was working on my certificate. I completed the Georgia Responds program at West Georgia. It consisted of classwork and a 1 year internship in lieu of student teaching. Some of the classes I took will also count towards my Master’s degree. I was able to complete some of my coursework through county staff development, and all in all it took about 3 1/2 years (but there were two terms I took no classes due to availability).

The PSC now offers a 5 year non-renewable certificate that you need to have to get a teaching position. The website has a page that allows you to do a self-test to see what you would qualify for. You also need to take two tests, the Praxis I and II. Praxis I can be exempted if you have high enough SAT scores.

There is also a test-out option through the PSC, but it’s new, and I don’t know all the options available with that.

There is still the GATAPP program. I know Cobb County will only hire GATAPP teachers in the field of special education.

In addition to the GA PSC site and the Teach Georgia site, I would recommend that you check out the websites of the counties you are interested in working for. A lot of the people in the GA Responds program with me also substituted - that gave them a foot in the door when they were looking to be hired.

By Another Teacher

May 20, 2005 12:20 PM | Link to this

Thank you, Tia!!

I, too, learned to “shop around” for my children - by volunteering in school and talking to teachers, I knew who would be a good fit for my children. While we couldn’t request by name, we could request traits, personalities, or teaching styles. My children always got fantastic teachers (including 4 teachers of the year). BTW - this was before I was a teacher.

I recommend that any dissatisfied parents do some research and shop around. Make your presence known in school - you will learn through “osmosis” who is effective and who isn’t. Find out your counties policies on attending schools out of district. And in the end, if you are still unsatisfied, look at private schools or homeschooling.

By Robert

May 20, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this

Funny how everyone says that positive parental involvement is an essential ingrediant to education, and yet so many parents are missing from that role.

What should we do about it? I would love to hear suggested solutions!

By will

May 20, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this

In addition to all the standardized testing the schools do why don’t we go ahead and test the students in eighth grade for their potential parenting skills and if they fail the gov’t can pay to have them spayed or neutered. I figure a one time gov’t expense is better than the monthly installment programs. Eventually bad apples would be weeded out.

By Sylvia

May 20, 2005 01:31 PM | Link to this

My son (finishes 5th grade today with all “A”s except for a lone “B+”) has been to 3 different public schools in 3 different states from 3 different regions, and generally speaking the teachers are wonderful, but there are certain negative “traits” that seem to run through the veins of all the schools:
1. Teachers who taught Middle or High School can be terrible elementary school teachers. They often have completely unrealistic ideas about how long certain tasks take young children to perform, claiming that a homeowork assignment should take “5” minutes when it takes 30 realistically, or requiring tedious repetition that is unnecessary like requiring spelling words to be written 20 times each, or taking away recess because the child made an error on their homework and then telling us how lucky we are that our child gets recess in the first place. Personally, Id love to see some of these teachers (who usually don’t yet have school age children of their own) try to teach class while cooking dinner, washing dishes, et cetera - all the things that parents have to do when their young children are trying to do their “5 minutes” of homework. 2. Teachers who do the above, and then arrogantly tell you about all their education degrees and spout educational psychobabble, implying that they know more than we do as parents just because they’ve been taught some gobbledygook new age theories. 3. Teachers who punish children harshly for minor errors and publicly humiliate them. 4. Teachers (or parents of teachers) who arrogantly suggest that we should homeshool our children, sentencing them to social isolation, while fighting legislation that would allow home schooled children to participate in extra-curricular programs. 5. Teachers who rush through advanced curriculum too quickly and overwhelm the students, only to complain that they are “not on task” after they stayed up until 11 pm and set the alarm for 5 am in a futile attempt to finish a homework assigment. (See former middle & high school teachers). 6. Teachers who complain that there is not enough time in the day, when the students only get 20 minutes for lunch, 15 minutes for recess, and no study hall. Have any of you had these experiences?

By MRS. BRUMFIELD

May 20, 2005 01:38 PM | Link to this

I never condoned any one of my children for any wrong action on their part. But when you call the school for months and even the principal dodges, you its quite unacceptable. The teaching schools and their concern was so bad, I pulled one out for home schooling, and volunteer the other one for alternative education. My son who still remains in school, has a very difficult time, but its quite apparent that his teachers just don’t care. They agree to respond to you and give you updates, but they do not. Most parents takes full responsiblity in raising their children, and do not look for schools too. However I feel if they were paid according to their students sucess, they would be on the ball in doing whatever it takes to educate the children and assuring that they understand what they think they are teaching.

By Michlynn

May 20, 2005 01:50 PM | Link to this

Sylvia,

My 5th grader finished with all A’s for the entire year, except for a C he earned second quarter. I am one of those horrible high school teachers you speak of! But, the difference is - I actually teach high school students! You are absolutely right to suggest that certain people mesh better with different age groups. There is no way under God’s green earth would I ever teach elementary or middle school children!

But, most teachers I personally know DO have school age children, and know exactly what it feels like to juggle a career, a marriage, children and an outside life as well.

Some of your arguments are valid, but you’re blaming the teachers - not the ones with the real power. Do you honestly believe that teachers mandate how much time is given for recess or lunch or what curriculum is taught?

FYI - repetition is a wonderful thing, and I will loudly attest to its value! Writing spelling words 20 times does actually work! Be grateful that you child’s teachers have high expectations of him and are setting him up to be successful!

By David

May 20, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this

still waiting on an email shauna….d

By Another Teacher

May 20, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

Sylvia made some good points that illustrate some of the problems in education and contribute to the animosity among parents, children, teachers, administrators, and business people.

Although I’m a teacher, I still feel that the education system in America could use tinkering, if not a full-scale overhaul. I’m not talking about some new-age, rehashed version of stuff that didn’t work the first time we tried it. I’m talking about schools that are based on an industrial model,meant to turn out identical products. While it’s fairly efficent at cranking out a workable product, it’s not so good at working those who don’t fit the mold.

Iheard once that elementary teachers love kids, high school teachers love their subjects, and middle school teachers like both. Sylvia is right; a high school teacher generally would not make a good elementary teacher (or vice versa), which is why most states have separate curriculum and certification for each.

Teachers often “spout educational gobledy-gook” to defend their practices. I’m not saying that’s right; I’m just giving an explanation. Sometimes it sems to me that education is the only career where you can be expected to be insulted, questioned in your techniques, and yet be lambasted for defending yourself. A good parent will make an effort to be as up to date as possible on strategies and techniques used in a classroom - sometimes teachers aren’t trying to spout their knowledge but share why they are using a particular strategy. I always appreciated it when my children’s teachers took the time to do that. Atlanta Parent and other parenting magazines often have articles explaining these things.

Children shouldn’t be humiliated - that’s unacceptable and should be addressed first with the teacher and administrator, and then taken to the county level if necessary.

Ioften suggest homeschool because Ihave several friends who do it and LOVE IT! I’m not arrogant about it; I simply offer it as a solution. Homeschool has come along why, and there is no reason why a child should be isolated. There are homeschool parent groups who get their kids together; there are internet homeschool groups who post blogs, message boards, and have chat.

Generally advanced curriculum classes have “higher authorities” to answer to (AP Board for example). The teacher may have to rush, and if a student can’t handle it, they may not be AP material. It’s not an insult; I’m not pro-athlete material. We all have our strengths and weaknesses.

I’m the first on the band wagon to tell you that 20 minutes is not enough time for lunch, and that I would love for my kids to have study hall so I could help them during the day instead of staying after or coming early.

In the push for better education, we have obviously decided on quantity over quality. I often say if we had to work the day that my middle schoolers go through, we would quit. Seven and a half hours of sitting (if you don’t have PE), writing, listening, rarely talking, having to ask to go to the restroom, 20 minutes of lunch, and no recess. But teachers don’t get to choose that - that’s a higher level decision.

By DB

May 20, 2005 03:05 PM | Link to this

MRS. BRUMFIELD: Just out of curiosity, why have you been calling the school for months? Based on your writings, it seems you may be one of those pushy parents that hound teachers and administrators because you don’t trust them in doing their jobs, and not calling you back may be a hint. I don’t know. I’m not assuming anything. Why don’t you go to the school if you’re so concerned? If there’s one thing I’ve learned in the several years I’ve taught, it’s that some parents should lay off and let their kid mature, and what you hear from your kid and what’s really going on my be two entirely different things. I’m not assuming you’re a hawk of a parent, but in all my years working with terrible schools, I’ve never seen a place not return calls unless the parent is a too pushy. Or maybe you just have your kid in a terrible school like you say, and the teachers just don’t care. I’m just curious to know more about the situation. Good luck.

By David

May 20, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this

DB, amen on kids not being totally up front with parents…i have a daughter graduating next week…4.0…4 scholarships…do you think i believe everything she says!!! They ALL withhold information…

By Sylvia

May 20, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

My reference to “arrogant” requests or demands that parents homeschool their children was in response to some really snooty earlier posts on this board - sorry for the confusion. I think that homeschooling can be great for some families. Regarding the defense of repitition, I can tell you that my son can learn how to spell a word after he writes it 3 times. If he has to write it 20 times he will get bored and start mispelling the word. I had a teacher tell me that my son (who averaged between 99 and 100 on his spelling tests) had to “unlearn the incorrect way and relearn the correct way” to which I responded, “NO” he just needs to learn the correct way in the first place. Sure repititon works for things like multiplication tables, but not for everything or for all children. It is a waste of time to write 20 words 20 times and is actually counterproductive. Also, as a former corporate executive, I can say that being lambasted and forced to defend oneself comes with the territory and is not unique to teaching. As far as the “AP” courses, my son ended up with an A, so apparently he was ready for it, it was just made unnecessarily difficult by rushing through the curriculum when none of the students were ready to “review” what they had not been taught and my son’s favorite subject became his most dreaded. As far as the recess subject, I realize that it is administrators and above who make these rules, but it was a teacher who grounded my then 3rd grader for making a mistake on the 20th spelling word that he had had to write 20 times. I don’t think that students should be punished for making mistakes on their homework - not in any way, and certainly not by taking their recess away. I don’t understand the thinking behind these decisions, both statewide and teacher wide. I am literally depressed about what my son has to go through next year in Middle School - there are no windows in the classrooms and they get no recess. I had recess and study hall through my Senior year in high school. Human beings need breaks - at all ages. What are they thinking?

By Another Teacher

May 20, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this

Sylvia - you and I agree on some things! I didn’t mention that the “writing 20 times” type of assignment is considered outmoded by most and really isn’t used much any more. It’s more important for the word to have meaning. I also don’t agree with loss of recess time as punishment. Since I teach middle school, and we don’t have recess anyway, it’s not something I deal with.

I’m sorry about those incidents - I hope your children’s educational experiences in the future are better.

By bill

May 20, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this

In today’s world everyone is so busy that most parents have a hard time of managing their time and as a result their parenting skills suffer. As we all know it’s hard work being a parent. Consequently, some parents fail to do their job. This neglect led to the implementation of CHARACTER EDUCATION in our schools. Bottom line: Teachers are forced to teach kids things that was intended to be learned at home (responsibility, respect, humility, integrity, etc.) Let’s face it! Parents educate and teachers teach. As a parent I know it’s hard to let someone tell your child what to do but as parent you’ve got to be mature enough to allow the teacher to do their job. Learn to bite the lip and set a good example for your child. Don’t degrade your child’s teacher at the supper table. When that happens, the child loses all respect for the teacher.

Parents, unlock the bedroom doors, unplug the video games, and turn off the computers, and do your job. Maybe,just maybe, teachers will be able to do theirs.

Parents and teachers must work together to insure that our kids will be ready to lead us into the future. It is reality that it will take both parties.

It hasn’t always been this way. We can thank the lawyers for that I guess.

By Dave

May 20, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this

We had a lot of problems with my son’s third-grade teacher at the start of this school year. The teacher threatened my son, singled him out for negative attention time after time, and made him uncomfortable, and then told my son “you need to stop whining to Mommy and Daddy about what happens at school.” Fortunately he goes to a good school and we were able to get him into another class — and the teacher reprimanded — but the damage is done, my son now hates school and we don’t trust the teachers any more. So I would say yes, animosity hurts, but for teachers to blithely state that the parents are always the cause comes from the same NEA-coddled world in which teachers don’t have to be able to pass the tests they administer.

By mrs. brumfiedl

May 20, 2005 03:59 PM | Link to this

I am not a pushy parent I am a concerned parent. I went to the school, would wait for some sorry person to be willing to address the issues. However as usual they hide behind the board, the board sends you back with a phone call, they sit and listen results for 5 minutes. If a few more parents was pushy if you would like to call it that, your peers would not be on the news, for molestation, drinking while driving, misconduct, giving children grades they do not deserve. See parents are not allowed to come and see whats happening with their precious gems anymore so you the adults away from home abused them in many ways, that as you see put you behind bars, or disbarred……

By mrs. brumfield

May 20, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this

DB my comment was blocked,,,but you watch the news, it comes out in the wash…

By mrs. brumfield

May 20, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

DB my comment was blocked,,,but you watch the news,

By mrs. brumfield

May 20, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this

DB you know where I moved from you could go to any school you chose,. Georgia will not let you go out of your county. Believe me I tried, after the worst incident. Regardless of what the teachers say, they are there to teach, I use to be one. Elementary Education…we pay, them to work, and marry them or molest them, or teach them morals a parent goes against. Children are allowed to download music make DVD’s, but the school do not care, if they have that priveledge at home. They are allowed to do things that some of us do not approve up. The computers are there for homework only not for chatting. What happens when the teachers sit back, and encourage dating, sex, or trading her children bodies for grades. Some have serious racial issues, when they choose not to teach, a white, black, or asian because of their own belief. We pay them to teach… Yes their are some who needs discipline, but some suffer from peer pressure, emotional issues, or depression. They will suspend a child and do not know if they are on paxil or meth…Then they want raises for what. Hope every child to raise their grade, self esteem, listen to the parents concerns, and rules, and then get a raise. Help these children raise their F’s to C’ seeing their way to a B’ and so on. If they dock their pay base on a average of passing students, they will either quit or children will be blowing the ACT, SAT, GHST and all your other T’S out the water.

By sylvia

May 20, 2005 04:30 PM | Link to this

All in all its been quite a good experience, but a few bad apples can really sour things. I get annoyed when I read these bloggers who keep complaining about the parents and their “spoiled and disrespectful kids”. Sure there are some, but I have to say that my son’s friends are really great kids. They need character education in part because they are inundated with garbage through the media that is hard to avoid - not because their parents are necessarily lacking in character education. Also in my day it wasn’t a crime to say the 23rd Psalm or the Lord’s Prayer in school like it is now, so they have to have some kind of secular education to replace the common-sensical stuff liek the 10 Commandments and ‘the Golden Rule’ that we were taught as children. The problem started with the ACLU not the parents!

By Cruiser

May 20, 2005 04:42 PM | Link to this

Wow - Mrs Brumfield - you were a teacher? Scary. My 9 year old has better writing skills.

By DB

May 23, 2005 08:44 AM | Link to this

Mrs. Brumfield: Although I can’t comprehend your writing, I’m assuming what went on must have been bad. I can imagine you may not be treated with respect because the teachers or administrators may not understand you, and it seems you may get a little too hyped up about things. However, I understand I could be wrong. Yes, kids can do whatever they want in school, and teachers and administrators are practically handcuffed from disciplining them. My suggestion is that you take your kid out of school and teach them yourself. Or you can always move somewhere else where things are a little more under control. It is absolutely worse for your kid to keep him/her in school if things are as bad as you’re trying to convey. Anyway, good luck with it.

By Susan

May 23, 2005 10:53 AM | Link to this

The constant refrain “if you don’t like the school, take your child out and homeschool them or put them into another school (meaning pay for private school)” is a pathetic response to give to parents. Why in the world should parents have to remove their children from a PUBLIC school which by state law their children must attend if this is their assigned school by their local school board? Doesn’t the school receive STATE, LOCAL and FEDERAL taxes to cover operating costs? Where do these funds come from anyway? From the PUBLIC. Why has this become the mantra of public school employees? If Ford or GMC treated their customers with the responses I have seen here - they would be bankrupt. Have you people ever taken a customer service course? Might be a great class for each of you to take this summer. Let’s put things into perspective here - tax dollars pay your salary, your retirement and offer you health benefits at a reduced cost. (I know how it works, I am married to a state employee) Without students there is no job for you. Albeit, you have a tough job, but teachers have always had a tough job. I don’t envy you your job, but this is the one you chose. If you don’t like it, QUIT. Stop whining on a continual basis about how horrible the parents and kids are. DO YOUR JOB AND DO IT WELL.
Yes, I have seen negative comments from parents posted on this boar, but the response from the teachers hating the parents and students is overwhelming in number and very sad. Your comments far out number the comments by the parents. My Lord, it appears that you all hate the very people you are entrusted to teach. It’s pathetic. The more I read, the more I wonder if YOU the teachers have not created the very circumstances you describe on this board. You ask parents to not say negative remarks about the teachers to the students, but you are posting horrible remarks about parents and students on a PUBLIC forum and wonder why your charges have no respect for you. I’m sure you gossip just as badly to other students, teachers and parents at your own school. On another forum on this very educational blog, several of us asked to have a public forum or group meeting where teachers, administrators, parents and students could get together to find a way to make things work, find solutions and stop the hatred - Only TWO teachers responded. The rest of you ignored the post. Obviously, you don’t want a solution, you don’t want things to work - you just want to whine, you just want things to be your way, you want more money and you don’t want to be around the kids. GROW UP. It’s time that the taxpayers demand that we get our moneys worth. If you can’t do the job you are assigned and your suggestion is for us to remove our kids and find an alternative solution, then we should be able to take the money allocated for our children and pay for this alternative solution. Therefore you lose the child, the money and according to you, the problems. I think the school system employees would sing a different tune if they stopped receiving the funding which is mandated for their schools now. Sorry to have such a long vent, but this is getting ridiculous.

By 2moredays

May 23, 2005 10:58 AM | Link to this

Hopefully, Ford and GMC start out using quality parts and materials. Teachers have to teach whomever is put on their rosters! Remember, you can’t make chicken salad out of chicken s*!!

By FED UP PARENT

May 23, 2005 11:04 AM | Link to this

If that is your attitude, QUIT. I do not want anymore of my tax dollars paying for poor attitude.

By Unbelievable

May 23, 2005 11:07 AM | Link to this

2 more days - are you a teacher? If so, what school do you teach at? I will make sure we do not buy land in your district.

By David

May 23, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this

Susan, I think the bottom line here is this: Teachers for the most part enjoy teaching kids who want to learn. We enjoy teaching kids who are teachable so to speak, whether it be an honor student or the at risk child who is “sitting on the fence” and could go either way. I think I am speaking for alot of teachers when I say this. It becomes very difficult to teach a student that CHOOSES NOT to do anything more than be disrespectful and disrupt the learning process and learning environment. I firmly believe that education is a privilege. Education, sadly to say, is NOT for everyone. It is not for the student who just last week refused to give up his cell phone in the gym because he was making his next drug deal (which was proven). It is not for the student who just before Christmas said to a fellow teacher “i know where you live, don’t forget that”. This student is still roaming our halls here. That is the difference Susan. The parents of those specific kids that I mentioned defended their children. I have been teaching for 19 years. I have always handled my own discipline which begins with VERBAL parent contact. Five years ago that worked very well. Now, I would venture to say, and this may be a low number, that 95% of my parent contacts result in the parent acually becoming hostile for calling them and bothering them. Well Susan, because of this and this seemingly uphill battle, I have decided to take your advice and resign, in good standing, with the school system here. But please understand that there is a difference in children with normal behavior problems and those that (along with their parents) are downright dangerous. Times are changing, especially in the east metro county where I have taught. Sure there are teachers that do not do their job. That is everywhere, in every occupation. There are also administrators that do not do their job. Sadly, this contributes to the problem. The combination of lax administrators and sorry parents affects school moral and in turn can cause a good teacher to “look” like a bad teacher. It’s a 2-way street. Sure, the teacher can create successful students and that is our job. However, better parents and administrators can certainly help teachers become better teachers. Take me out of a school that has 70% free lunches and put me in a school with 15% free lunches and I promise you I will at least “look” like a better teacher.

By DB

May 23, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

Silvia: If your rant is about me, I’d like you to realize I’m not complaining about anything but trying to point the lady in the right direction. I don’t teach in a public school. I teach in a private school. I tell people to take their kids out and either homeschool or move to another, better district because the facts are that schools are unsafe and terrible. I assumed she couldn’t affort private school, which is my best recommendation. My concern lies with the kids. I’m not complaining about my job, my pay, or whatever, but the fact is that many schools in the metro area are terrible, and I wouldn’t even think about sending my kids there. Yes, schools are PUBLIC, but until consequences can be handed out to children to make them accountable for their actions, public schools will remain terrible. Let me correct you in that most teachers are good, and most teacher’s do their job. But the ability for them to do their job effectively is severly diminished in the public system. You ask why should parents have to take their kids from public schools? I didn’t say they had to, I just suggest it. As for teachers and administrators getting together and solving problems; that’s all they try to do, but society keeps thwarting every effort by allowing deadbeats to sue and kids who misbehave and ranting parents to bog down the system. That’s simply how it is. There will be absolutely no solution until discipline and authority is put back into the system, period! Besides, it’s not the job of a teacher babysit and entertain immature kids, which it has become in our current society. The job of a teacher is to inspire and pass knowledge onto his/her students. When there is discipline in a school, that becomes a passion, and teachers get very good at it. And also, teachers are only negative toward bad kids and bad parents. They are there for the good kids. The number of bad kids and bad parents has been growing exponentially in the past 10 years, and that is what’s creating the negativity. Also, public school is not a business like Ford or GM, it is a cause. You should try to teach for at least three years. You’ll love it. You’re obviously passionate about it.

By DB

May 23, 2005 11:43 AM | Link to this

David: Can’t agree with you more! I feel for you. I was there, but I found my answer in private school. It looks like the system just pushed another great teacher away.

By FrustratedMom

May 23, 2005 12:01 PM | Link to this

David,

Grant it there are problem students. I agree unequivocally, but there are also problem teachers who are much more protected than the problem students you all complain so much about. Studies have proven that a bad teacher can impact a student for 3 or more years. What if this individual has 5 classes of 30 students per day? This is 150 students they have negatively impacted. A student can lose their desire to learn because of ONE BAD teacher. Teachers are given a contract for one year, correct? Are students given the same rights - a guarantee that they will receive a QUALITY education from ALL of their teachers? I am not talking about the students with behavior problems, I am talking about your normal middle of the road student who has parents who care, who comes to school and does their homework and is maybe a B/C student - you know one that has to be taught, not a gifted student who picks things up easily. Does this regular student recieve a guaranteed contract that they will receive a quality education from ALL of their teachers. I think not. Here lately, it’s become a game of russian roulette for many parents. If you get 5 good teachers out of 6 you consider your child lucky. As a parent, you don’t complain because that makes you a problem parent to the teachers and administrative staff and can create a bad environment for your child. Yes, retribution is alive and well in Georgia schools and is practiced on a daily basis at public schools. The adults may not be as obvious at this practice as the student in your post who made a verbal threat, but they are really good at retribution and retaliation on a more devious level. We are forced as parents to be complacent about our children’s eduction and this not acceptable. Case in point - my child has just spent a year in 2 math classes which were both total wastes of time. The students in both classes actually went to the adminstration and complained continuously that they were not learning. One teacher was too busy with her sports team to want to spend time with her students and the other teacher came to our school only to get into the social security system so he could receive ss benefits since the school he used to teach had an alternative retirement program and did not withdraw social security. He even told the kids he was tired of teaching and would sit at his desk and READ magazines. Who is going to make it up to these students for a total loss of their math eduction for this year? The parents who care about their kids will now have to hire tutors or go outside to places like Sylvan to get help. Is this fair? No, but you all don’t want to hear this or even admit this may be a problem. It’s better to blame it all on the kids than say, ok, there is a problem here that we have ALL contributed to and try to find a solution. If you are a good teacher, then I am sorry that you are leaving. I would appreciate though that you not give me the credit for your decision - evidently this has been a decision that you have thought about for a while. Good luck in your endeavors. Susan

By Another Teacher

May 23, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this

Susan - please go back and read my posts. I think I have been fair to the students (and parents of the students) I teach while defending (I don’t feel it is whining, but your opinion may be different) my profession.

There is a lot of bashing going on - parents bashing teachers, teachers bashing parents, concerned citizens bashing the system and so on. There are some of us who are trying to provide a voice of reason.

For me, it comes down to these points:

To quote Rodney King, “Can’t we all just get along?”

By FrustratedMom

May 23, 2005 12:17 PM | Link to this

DB,

A school is a business - period and should be run as one. Even your volunteer organizations such as the Red Cross and Care which are truly causes consider themselves to be businesses. Once a school system realizes that they have a product, in this case, a quality education, to deliver to their clients, then we can begin to find a solution. Most major corporations can not and will not try to define their clients, they can’t for fear of loss of their client base. Several school systems in the north have hired CEOs from major corporations to run their school systems and have even hired top quality managers to run their schools and they are seeing a wonderful turn around - teacher moral has gone up, students test scores are increasing, it’s a positive change. Run it as a business, take the emotion out and look for solutions instead of problems and you may be able to make changes.

By Another Teacher

May 23, 2005 12:23 PM | Link to this

Susan - your other post went up while I was typing my novel. I’m sorry to hear about your experiences. It is true that a negative teacher can impact for a significant amount of time. That’s one of the reasons it’s so important for parents to be involved. Although teachers sign a year long contract, they can still be let go - I’ve seen it happen several times. Document, document, document when you have a valid complaint. Don’t be complacent, but make sure you have what you need to back up your complaints.

By DB

May 23, 2005 12:26 PM | Link to this

FrustratedMom: Those kind of teachers need to be reprimanded or negatively motivated by administration to change their ways. The sad truth is that administrators, in their neverending battle against the system(bad students and enabling parents who make the conditions at school terrible), don’t have a lot of time to monitor the teachers, which allows teachers like that to stay in the classroom. It’s sad. Also, the right to a quality education has gone down the drain several decades ago. I hold to my opinion that school systems have been ruined by bad students and bad parents(in combination with spineless administration). And a good education is not a right if you ask me. A chance to have an education at a public school is a right, but it should be a privilege. That way the administration can set firm behavioral and academic expectations in order to attend school, which would isolate the bad from the good. Then the bad need to go to a publicly-funded boarding school where they learn what their parents didn’t teach them. They were once a minority, but each year it becomes more and more prevalent. It’s sad to have the good kids and parents suffering from it, but that’s the reality. A lot of the problem why we have bad teachers is because good teachers(David) are being run out of town because they hold to expectations for both the kids and themselves. Because of all the good teachers leaving, there is a great teaching shortage while the requirements are less and less. In most cities in the U.S., the job interview for a teaching position could be substituted by the school nurse simply checking for a pulse. :) I’m not saying all kids and all parents are bad. I’m simply saying education has been ruined by ever-growing percentage that are disruptive to education. The sad truth is that a teacher can’t even kick a kid out of class anymore. Generally speaking, real teachers are there for the students, and the bad ones there for selfish reasons can’t handle it for long anyway. But the even more sad part is that those kinds of teachers are becoming the only ones that’ll take the job. Has anyone looked at the turnover rates lately? You’re lucky to have a teacher that has taught for more than 5 years these days.

By FrustratedMom

May 23, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this

Another Teacher,

I apologize if it appeared that I was generalizing. Coming from a different perspective though, I am a parent who truly cares about the education my child receives. It is the only gift which I can give him that will last his lifetime and it is MY JOB to make sure that he is getting a quality education. I can not afford a private school, I have to work fulltime and do not feel that I could give him the best education if I chose to homeschool him as I would not be there, so my options are limited, as I am sure many of the parents on this forum are. Good parents are frustrated as well as good teachers. Not just because our kids are affected by the behavioral problems of certain students, but also by the political infighting which goes on at all public schools and the apathy which is so prevalent among teachers now. Look, I can still name the teachers I had in highschool who made a wonderful impact on my life. I had 7 who made a difference and instilled in me the desire to learn. I consider myself extremely lucky. Will my child be that lucky, how I hope… You sound like you love your job and maybe you can help to make the changes we so desperately need to make to our system. Let’s work together and find the solutions and let’s all STOP WHINING.

By FrustratedMom

May 23, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this

DB,

You make very valid points. I agree that behavior problems are causing alot of damage to our schools, teachers and students. Believe me, it is hard as a parent who has rules for their children to stay the course because your kids look at you like you are too strict and too hard when the other students they attend school with are allowed to act any way they want, but not staying the course is not an option in my book. BUT, at the same time, good kids who get in trouble for MINOR infractions (such as talking in class, etc.) while the other students in the classroom curse the teachers, blatantly don’t do their work, wear definite dress code violation clothing are a bigger problem and these students many times do not get in trouble. How do you justify this action to regular students? Many times, I think a teacher will punish a student who has parents who care at home, rather than have to deal with one who doesn’t. Alot of my son’s friends are very verbal about how they feel about school and what happens each day. They are just as appalled at the behavior of their student body, but they can not justify why one student may get in trouble, and another doesn’t. Athletes are good examples of this phenomena - many athletes are allowed to act any way they see fit, because there are no consequences. It should be one rule for ALL - no deviations. Kids see black and white - they don’t see the gray area or the politics involved. It’s either Fair or Not Fair. Let’s make this easy and fair and move forward.

By DB

May 23, 2005 12:55 PM | Link to this

FrustratedMom: Since education is a business, as you say, several things must be changed. The clients should be willing to move elsewhere(like up North where I used to teach and things are just the same, little discipline). A business only exists when customers willingly give money for the goods or services they provide. In this case, public school is not a business because we give our taxes to the system regardless of the products. So a public school is no more than you paying a very small portion of the expenses through taxes, and the rest of the taxpayers pickup up the tab. I’ve never been to a business where that happens. :) Then according to my belief, as a taxpayer, I demand that any kid that disrupts the education of kids that want to learn should be kicked out because they’re not only wasting the money put out on a platter for them but the money for all the other students that now cannot learn. Another problem you might notice is that if public schools are a business, they would have the option to deny service to anyone. The true business of education is in private schools where there are real customers. And you know what? They have discipline, and they don’t accept kids with behavioral problems BECAUSE THEY DISRUPT THE LEARNING PROCESS FOR THE GOOD KIDS. And they have good teachers because they fire the bad teachers without hesitation. And the teachers that stay are passionate and live for teaching. Why can’t we do that for everyone? The reason is due to our laws that allow the bad to run the system. Any great turnarounds up north(actually one school system did it in Chicago with very limited success, but that was only for two years and the CEO quit) are most likely due to the fact that current administrators are being replaced by competent ones. I like the Chicago system where they have two levels of schooling. The kids can work hard and make it to a “military” version of school upstairs, or they can stay in the mainstream public school down below. That sounds more like a solution. Until you can take out the trash, education is not a business. When I used to own a repair shop, I told many customers to go somewhere else because they weren’t being respectful. My business flourished because I could take really good care of the customers that appreciated it. Also, are we going to start paying the CEO’s(just a new buzzword for Superintendent) of schools millions of dollars to compete with industry? Are we going to start sharing stocks for each school system? You see, there’s also one huge factor missing in your business model, COMPETITION.

By Stephanie

May 23, 2005 01:01 PM | Link to this

While that is funny I must say I do not like my youngest child’s teacher. She said my son was “deviant and defiant” because he wouldn’t do his writer’s workshop. Okay first of all he is 5, of course he is going to be defiant. Deviant on the other hand is where I draw the line. Then I asked him why he didn’t do it and he said the teacher would not help him, she did not have time. I am sorry I thought that was part of her job! Not to mention there is a teacher’s aide in the room! I think someone who expects a child who is 5 to write four COMPLETE sentences totally on his own about the subject she provided is totally off their rocker! I do however happen to love my other two children’s teachers.

By DB

May 23, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this

FrustratedMom: You have many valid points also. Here’s what I suggest. If you haven’t already done so, ask your local Principal if you can observe several classes in a high school, or even ask if you can shadow a teacher for a day(do many teachers). Go to as many different classes with as many different teachers as possible. Spend at least several days doing this(if you can). Please do this! I can talk until I’m blue, and many just won’t understand. Talk to teachers after the classes if possible. Ask them why they may not have done this or that to Johnny when he misbehaved, etc. Or better yet, ask the teachers what they think the problems are in education(you won’t have enough time, but you’ll see some patterns). Good luck. Please do this. And please pick bad schools as well as good schools.

By VDW

May 23, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

“Okay first of all he is 5, of course he is going to be defiant.”

I do not agree with this type of reasoning. It is okay for a child to be defiant because he is 5? At what age, then, does it become inappropriate to be defiant? The child will not simply wake up at age 10 and think, “Wow, I’m 10. Time to grow up and stop a five year trend of getting away with being defiant.”

Also, a small bit of semantics… you are upset because your child got in trouble because he couldn’t do the work, yet the teacher’s note said he wouldn’t do the work. A subtle yet significant difference. While I would not agree with a child being punished for a lack of ability to complete the work, I see no problem with punishing a child who wouldn’t even try do the work. Have you spoken with the child’s teacher to get her viewpoint on the matter?

By DB

May 23, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this

Stephanie: Hmm… My kids are that age, and neither of them are defiant. By the age of 3, kids should learn that defiance doesn’t pay off. As for the teacher not having time, maybe she was helping 20 other kids and simply couldn’t get to yours in time, or maybe even did get to him but moved on to another kid who was willing to listen? How do you know what was going on? To your son, he may think he’s being ignored when the real problem is that she has too many students. Things aren’t always as they seem. You should talk to the teacher and son and find out exactly went on before badmouthing someone who puts up with a lot of abuse day in and day out and still devotes her life to teaching little kids. Maybe he was afraid to tell her he needed help. You’d be surprised what a 5-year-old can do. Expecting a kid that age to write 4 complete sentence sounds reasonable to me, and if anything, I would be flattered that the teacher expects that from your son. Kids love to write their own little stories at that age. How does your kid act with you? Is he defiant? If yes, there’s a good chance he’s even worse at school(or he may be better). I’m not saying your or the teacher is bad, I’m just saying that it’s very difficult to judge how your son acts or the teacher acts when you’re not there seeing exactly what’s going on. And don’t sell your son short. It sounds like your expectations for a 5 year old kid are a little low. Maybe your son does have a behavioral problem, and maybe you should be thankful that she is honest about it. Or maybe she’s a bad teacher.

By David

May 23, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this

Dear frustrated mom, I’m sorry you are having to go through this. We have 1100 students in our school; 60 or so teachers…i’m a charter member of the school. I was here when it opened. I would say we probably have 250 kids that are behavior problems of some degree. Probably 150 serious problems (out of the 250), then about 40 or so that really need to just “disappear”…..I don’t know what to say to you at this point. I wouldn’t classify any of our teachers as bad. Yes there are bad teachers. Simply saying hello to a kid in the hallway or asking them how their weekend was , will go a long way. That would probably do more than improving classroom teaching. I had a kid last month who called me a baldheaded SOB because I asked him to take his hat off. It didn’t really bother me too much that he called me that because i’m really secure with my bald head (i can grow hair but shave it in the shower each morning..lol) I took his hat. He challenged me to a fight at lunch and said he would kick my a*. I knew his dad was in prison. I took him out into the hall… just the 2 of us. I said “now kick my a*”…..he started crying …i put my arm around him and said “Bobby, don’t ever threaten me again….I know you are having problems at home, if you ever want to talk, I’ll listen”….well, I really don’t know where i’m going with all this except we are dealing with different degrees of behavior. My point is this…you seem to really be a concerned parent..the parents i’m dealing with don’t give a damn…some of these kids will have to fall flat on their face to learn the hard way. Many of these parents don’t care if the teachers are bad or not, they just don’t want to be bothered…that is my point.

By David

May 23, 2005 01:47 PM | Link to this

Susan, how do you know I wasn’t toying with the idea and your comment just didn’t push me right on over???You said if I didn’t like it to quit….

By David

May 23, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this

Susan it may be a good idea not to use the word ALL when discussing a few teachers that you have come in contact with. I certainly don’t think ALL parents are bad.

By David

May 23, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this

susan, i apologize for my last comment…it should have been directed to frustrated mom….

By David

May 23, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this

susan…damn…sorry for the double negative…”just pushed me right on over”….

By DB

May 23, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this

David: Well put! I’m at a loss also. About the bald head, I lost most my hair in two years when I taught at Elmira Southside High School in Elmira, NY, when my last year there culminated with Jeremy Getman, my former student, bringing a whole slew of weapons to school one day. He’s in prison now, so we’re still spending money on him. I dealt with situations like you just described several times a day. These situations are all too common for all teachers. I even had a kid try to fight me in class(jumped on my back) because I told him to move to another seat. Nothing happened to him. I had a kid show up at my doorstep to prove that he did know where I lived after threatening me one day that he knew where I lived. Nothing happend to him. I had a kid with seven felonies, no dad, and a crackhead mom break down to me one day and tell me he thought his life wasn’t worth living. I felt so bad for him. He took my advice to forget what he can’t change and to commit to success. He joined the Army. He’s now on his own and doing well. I don’t even know what my point is anymore, but the kid with 7 felonies was one of the few that behaved in class. Allowing kids to misbehave in schools as they do today only makes them worse and even less prepared for society.

By David

May 23, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this

Darn, i think you’re both the same person….

By ChastisedMOM

May 23, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this

David,

You are right. I shouldn’t use the word ALL. Not all teachers are bad. I would say maybe 5% shouldn’t be in the teaching profession - and we just lucked up this year and got our 5% in 2 math classes:). (We have been lucky though to have 5 great teachers this year.) It is just so frustrating about the math classes. Math is necessary in all types of work. My biggest complaint is that we signed our son up for a basic math class along with pre-algebra to strengthen his math skills and both classes turned out to be a tremendous waste of time and now he is scheduled to go into Algebra 1 and I’m really worried about his chances at success. David, you sound like you really care. Why not take your skills and find a smaller quieter community and share your talents with kids who would appreciate you? Don’t quit, find a solution. Call the education department and see if they don’t have a job for someone like you who can make a difference.

Signed

Chastised Mother

By ChastisedMOM

May 23, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

David,

I suffer from multiple personalities :). Part of being a fulltime parent and having a fulltime job.

Look - ALL of the teachers. You do a wonderful job. I stand corrected about sounding so frustrated, but it had really gotten depressing to read how horrible ALL of the parents were in so many posts by the teachers. You ALL (well most of you) do a great job and you have a terrible burden to put up with considering the stories I have heard here. Think also though about the firemen and policemen and EMTs who make so much less than you do and put up with just as much, if not more. They risk their lives each day, for pennies. They don’t have anyone fighting or lobbying for raises or benefits, they do their jobs because the love them, just as many of you do. Yes, our society has changed tremendously, but I still say, we must find a solution or stop complaining. This isn’t fixing anything. What do you all suggest - and be fair - everyone has contributed to this problem, yes some more so than others, so let’s find a solution. David, you can be the group leader, ok :)

By DB

May 23, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this

ChastisedMOM, FrustratedMom, Susan: Just tell your son to try as hard as he can, and things will fall into place. Look at it this way, if he had a bad teacher, he must have learned to teach himself, which is the ultimate goal of a good education. As long as he tries, he’ll turn out fine in the long run. Hope that the next Math teacher will be a good one. Besides, one good thing about math is that you can learn it from a book.

By David

May 23, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this

Dear Chastised…well my concentration is History and Government…i’ve been stuck in the middle school for years…the last 5 in ISS..but it’s not just me..the moral here is very low now..lax administration and the parental thingy..i want to get back into a high school setting…the county i teach in will not let people teach at the same school who are related…dad is retired but doing half day at one high school…brother is at the other…so i am stuck…i do have a successful business that i can fall back on…i really think i need a year off…i’m burned out…my certificate is good to ‘09 but will keep it updated…you sound like a great parent, wish i had more here like you..thanks, david

By Susan

May 23, 2005 02:42 PM | Link to this

David,

My youngest loved Civics. I think because his teacher allowed them to debate and believe me he loves to argue :)…I think he’ll probably end up as a lawyer, but he has talked about wanting to be a history teacher because of his love of American History.

Look, please don’t quit. That was the wrong remark for me to make and I think many times our frustration causes the ones who love the kids and want them to have the best education we can give them, to strike out. Again, I apologize. It’s teachers like you, Robert and DB and the others on the board who truly care that can make a difference.

By David

May 23, 2005 02:46 PM | Link to this

Susan, thanks for appointing me leader..it depends on the school..I REALLY DON’T KNOW. I think everyone has to transform their way of thinking, transform their minds. Parents have got to raise their children better than they were raised. It’s hard to do that because the natural tendency is to raise your child the way you were brought up. No child left behind is a joke. We now have to meet attendance standards and goals or we may become a failing school. Administrators therefore will not suspend children in order to keep them in house. I’m in a school that is in its 3rd year as failing. One problem we have here is the children who are “sitting on the fence” look up to the real problem kids. We don’t suspend the real behavior problems in order to meet attendance goals. Therefore, the at risk kids are getting worse. They think its so cool to hang out with the real behavior problem kids. Administrators for the most part need an overhaul. Many haven’t taught in a classroom in over 10-15 years. I don’t think we will improve the parenting we have in our school. The only solution I have for my school and for many out there is to implement the equivalent of TOUGH LOVE so to speak. The tone needs to be set by the administrators (and teachers), and it needs to be followed. Kids talk, and if we start out very tough and weed out the problems then word will spread to the kids and home to the parents. It is so much easier to start out tough and firm then get lax, rather than vice versa.

By David

May 23, 2005 02:55 PM | Link to this

Susan, seriously, I appreciate what you are saying and you really make me feel worthwhile..like I said I wish we had parents here like you. I HAVE been flirting with the idea of getting out. This year sort of did it for me. You know I think everyone has a built-in sensor when it comes to tough decisions. We are all guided. We all know when the time is right to make big decisions. It just sort of “hits” you at the right moment, and you just know. Whether it’s meeting that special someone or making a career change. I’m sure at some point I may return. They are opening a new high school in the county in ‘06…d

By David

May 23, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this

Susan, your child is actually the type of child I love to teach…or would love to teach. The kind who challenges me…makes me a better teacher…d

By Vic

May 23, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this

David, I’ve been “out of the loop” but still monitoring. You are still the man! I couldn’t read all the posts, but it seems like you guys are getting down to solutions. I don’t have much time, so here goes. Let’s get with our GAE and PAGE reps to get the disruptive students out of the classroom. And, I know many of you will disagree, but put CAMERAS IN THE CLASSROOMS!!! Peace out!

By Susan

May 23, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this

David,

Very good points. There are so many different dynamics at play here, but it’s the politics played by many administrators which I gather adds dramatically to the problem. That is the reason I think we should make a standard set of rules and stick by them. Kids have to know there are consequences when they get in real life. I know of one school system where they put substitutes in as disciplinary aides in the classes which were out of control. This worked extremely well and the kids have turned around in these classes to where they are passing with much higher averages and it is helping to set the tone for the rest of their classes. One thing I think also adds to the problem though is there are some teachers who have a much more liberal approach to classroom behavior and this can cause problems in other classes. In other words, they let their students behave in ways that they shouldn’t by being loud or getting by with much more than they would in other more structured classrooms. Doesn’t this make it hard on the rest of you? Kids can’t turn on or turn off the behavior like adults can. If you expect the students to behave you must set up a definitive set of rules and you must expect this behavior in ALL classes, not just in a few. Consistency is very important in discipline. Every parenting book that I have read says that you must be consistent and ready to keep your word about punishments and rewards or kids lose confidence in you. Isn’t this true of all adults, not just parents?

By Susan

May 23, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this

David,

I wish my child is luck enough to have a teacher like you. When a teacher makes a statement that having a student in there class can make them a better teacher, that speaks volumes for where your heart is. I’m not sure what county you are in, but if it is in the Rockdale, Newton, Walton or Jasper area, we are losing a very valuable asset and need to do what it takes to keep you.

By David

May 23, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this

You know Vic, my last administrator was the strongest I have ever been under. A true leader. He believed like I do. If you discipline the faculty first, many problems will be solved. BUT not all problems, and he dealt with the kids and didn’t mind telling parents to take their kids home. One of the most effective things he did was he had an agreement with the police dept. here in town. If a kid was disruptive OR if a suspended kid showed up at school, he would put the kid in his car and take them to the police dept. The parents could pick them up there.

By Gail

May 23, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this

I agree that the mindset has to change, probably for everyone, but as a parent, I’m talking about the parental (and therefore student) mindset. I hear my teen complaining about teachers who aren’t doing what she thinks they should. (She complains this way about her parents also.) Whether they’re bad or good teachers is immaterial for her goal. She’s got to get out of that class what she needs - REGARDLESS of the teacher. This is the part of education I call her “life lessons”. I frequently remind her, when she starts complaining, that when she is out of school and working a job, she will consistently run into people who aren’t doing things as they should.

School is about educating the mind, but in our society, it is also about learning how to get along in life. And parents cannot teach it all. Children must come into contact with different kinds of people in different situations in order to learn how to work through their problems.

Now the parent part, and this is where it gets scary. I don’t expect my kids to understand this until I teach them. However, I am increasingly running into parents who don’t understand this either. It’s like they don’t expect their kids to HAVE any problems to work through. How unrealistic is that? But I have seen and heard many otherwise intelligent people ascribe to a theory that every teacher must do everything right every single day, at least with THEIR child, or they are truly upset. Where did this unrealistic expectation come from for the parents?

By David

May 23, 2005 03:20 PM | Link to this

NEWTON

By David

May 23, 2005 03:22 PM | Link to this

Susan it’s kind of like that line Jack Nicholson said in “As Good As It Gets”…to Helen Hunt…”You make me want to be a better man”….and Newton …

By Jennifer

May 23, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

Susan,

What system has the substitutes as discipline aids? That’s awesome! I love it! I know that would have helped me out tremendously.

As for different behaviors in different classes, kids CAN turn their behavior on and off like a switch. They read people well, and know what they can & can’t get away with, taking as many liberties as they can.

I’m sure some teachers are lax in their behavior expectations. But, keep in mind that there are others who may appear lax but try very hard not to be that way. Some teachers just have a presence in the classroom that elicits respect. Others don’t give off that air, and they need a more rules & consequences approach. If there are few or no effective consequnces available, behavior will spriral in the classroom, giving the appearance of a lax teacher.

I struggled with classroom management as a teacher, which is the main reason I left the field. One of the things that worked for me was to repeatedly ask parents, administrators, other teachers, anyone with a pulse to come in and observe my class. Just having an extra set of eyes in the class helped get things in order. I’m glad that there are systems out there who are working towards helping those of us who struggle.

By David

May 23, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this

Gail I don’t know but this is what the teachers are running into with parents. I think , well I know many parents want to be liked by their kids. They want to be “buddies”. Big mistake. God I couldn’t stand my parents when I was growing up and they could care less whether I liked them or not. But boy I look back now and they sure knew what they were talking about. Parents are “bailing” their kids out of problems in the name of “love”. Lord help me…let me say this…i’m not talking about all parents. It depends on where you are and i’ll leave it at that.

By Gail

May 23, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

David — I’m not sure I agree that most are bailing them out in the name of love or even that they want to be “friends”. I think a lot of parents are busy and overwhelmed and just don’t have the energy to deal with these problems consistently. My other child has a learning disability and I cannot impress upon you how much energy it takes to consistently be on top of what is going on with him in school. It can take a lot out of you.

Even though my husband and I work full-time, our priority is our family and it takes a lot of time. I can’t imagine where single parents, parents going to school themselves or working two jobs get the energy to do right by their kids education. Some of this is about setting difficult priorities.

By Teacher, Too

May 23, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this

What a tremendous dialogue…I am most impressed with the way the negativity has given way to looking for solutions. Unfortunately, we are the concerned parents and teachers. The ones who truly need to read this blog are the ones who aren’t.

Also, as teachers and being human, we tend to vent our frustrations on parents. It’s not ALL parents we are concerned with- I have a great relationship with most of the students’ parents. It is the minority of parents that appear less concerned (and I intentionally use the word “appear”- it is very likely that they are overwhelmed with their own situations and can’t be as involved as they like with their children’s education).

With that said, I am happy to send the children home to their parents for the summer- and gear up for teaching summer school!

By Gail

May 23, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this

David (I just had to add) I think there is a strong desire in nearly every parent to protect/defend their child, as it should be. I think most parents also want to be loved by their children. No news there. But nowadays, something is causing these valid parental desires to be twisted into the perverse parenting style you described, where parents do what they do “in the name of love.”

To fix this problem, this is the “something” that we have to get to.

By Susan

May 23, 2005 04:27 PM | Link to this

I don’t ever remember my parents ‘caring’ if I was mad at them or not. In truth, I had no right to be mad nor would my parents tolerate my being mad at them. It was not my place. My husband has a saying to our son that he has not earned his place to act like he is his equal. It sounds harsh, but if you look at it in reality, it is true. He is not an adult, does not pay the bills nor is he responsible for ALL of his actions (meaning as parents we ultimately are responsible if he hurts or damages something or someone)so until he walks in our shoes then he still must obey and respect us.

By Gail

May 23, 2005 04:37 PM | Link to this

Susan, That was quite eloquent. At my house, when my teen complains that she can’t do what we do, we say it’s because “We’re grown, and you’re not.” LOL

By Mom

May 23, 2005 04:42 PM | Link to this

Dear Teacher, Too and Vic,

Maybe a grassroots effort of teachers, parents and students working together can force a change? It has to start somewhere.

I’m game, anyone else?

By Vic

May 24, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this

Hey Mom, I hope you are still there. Sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner. I love your idea about a grassroots effort. Let’s try a little something. What if we wrote letters to our respective school boards about getting cameras in the classrooms? Now, we already know the primary argument against it would probably be the cost. So, we could anticipate this argument by suggesting that we try a pilot project and plan to gradually work them in, given the results of the pilot project. What do you think? I have more details, but I’m short on time. Please hit me back, if you are there.