Get Schooled

By trey

May 18, 2005 11:19 AM | Link to this

has anyone ever done research on african-americans, hispanics, etc. that attend schools in higher socioeconomic areas? what is the grad rate for these students compared to the data presented here? are we talking race or socioeconomics?

By FDOEWorker

May 18, 2005 11:23 AM | Link to this

I once worked for GADOE and know first-hand how our state’s education learders tried so hard to avoid the issue of high school dropout. They didn’t want anyone to mention there’s such a problem. In the DOE’s internal department meetings, they never mentioned any problem with education in Georgia. All they were saying was how great things were.

By lucia

May 18, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this

This isn’t a race issue, it’s a class issue.

Chamblee High School, which has some of the highest SAT scores and graduation rates in the state, is predominantly black and latino.

By Gina

May 18, 2005 11:49 AM | Link to this

Michael Eric Dyson, the author, is in the city and was interviewed this morning on the FOX network. He and many other Black leaders are very upset when Bill Cosby stated “Black parents need to take more responsibility for their children and their education”. The community doesn’t want to address the underlying problems dealing with the low graduation rates. It is more than just mediocre schools. In the Black community, single parent homes led by women are the norm and the children have little interaction with their fathers. The reasons, whether forced or non-forced, are too numerous to name why the fathers are not involved. TV, rap videos and the hip-hop culture is raising the current generation of Black children. The rap of today is not the rap I grew up with in the late 70’s and 80’s. Most of the rap now is destructive, demeaning and full of hate. It embraces the N-word which I detest. We must move back to the way our parents raised children, the biblical way.

By Tim McNally

May 18, 2005 12:08 PM | Link to this

Georgia needs to work harder on education, but how do you teach young people who don’t want to learn? Willingness is the key! What teacher or school can teach the unwilling. We assume that all kids want to suceed in school and that’s not true. Ignorance is not the teachers fault. I came from a broken home that was dirt poor but I wanted to learn. School was my “out”. I may have been poor but I wasn’t stupid!

By Robert

May 18, 2005 12:39 PM | Link to this

GA high schools are being squeezed. One one side we are to ensure that students gain the knowledge to pass the graduation test and let students graduate.

On the other side, we get students from middle schools that cannot read or write and cannot do basic math. Yet, high schools are expected to perform miracles on these students that may have behavior problems, have absentee parents, or worse.

Isn’t this an unrealistic goal for our high schools? Why can’t we have a “graduation test” for middle schools to ensure that students have the basic knowledge before throwing them into high schools? High school students will readily tell you that they learned NOTHING in middle school.

As a high school teacher, IMHO, what needs “fixing” is not education as much as parenting skills.

By Amy W.

May 18, 2005 12:44 PM | Link to this

Tim:

I agree that motivation plays a large role in terms of students succeeding in school. However, its presumptous for you to assume that all African American and Latino students are not willing to learn….because that’s definitely what you are implying with your last post.

By Dan

May 18, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this

Chamblee also has the highest concentration of asian students, which is why they test and graduate at such high rates.

By Dan

May 18, 2005 12:56 PM | Link to this

Amy Tim never said all weren’t willing. He was alluding to the % that didn’t succeed. and it is just as presumptous and even more dangerous to not look at and address potential issues due to political correctness. Too much of the media and politicians keep pounding the minority groups saying they can’t succed without special help they believe it. The fact is many do succeed. The first school supply that any child should be issued is a mirror along with a stern lecture that 90% of your lot in life is determined by your own actions.

By Amy W.

May 18, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this

Dan, this is where we differ. Yea, I believe that “a lot in life is determined by your own actions.” However, for most of the students living in underfunded, low-income areas, their best actions may not be good enough. Not due to their intellect, but because of a lack of fundamental, educational resources that are necessary to succeed.

Why is it that schools in North Fulton county have good test scores, a strong community, and nice facilities? Sure, the kids’ determination have something to do with it. But its also an issue of parent involvement and high property taxes that contribute to well-funded schools. Why is it that students who live in either South Fulton county, South DeKalb county, or Atlanta Public schools have a higher dropout rate? Its not as though they can’t succeed. A lot of the time, they don’t have access to the same resources compared to other schools within the counties.

Find me a distict where ALL schools have equal access to good teachers, good educational resources, involved parents, etc, and there is still a major discrepency between Whites to African Americans and Latinos. I’ll give you a hint—you probably can’t find one. Because communities that give all students equal opportunities to succeed wouldn’t cited as having a problem.

By Jake

May 18, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this

Amy W - Not ‘all’, and it’s not necessarily because the students are unwilling to learn. SAT scores and graduation rates in general are lower in inner city and rural areas in Georgia. Schools in these areas may not be able to attract and retain the best teachers and administrators. But it also appears there are socioeconmic factors, poverty and cultural values that do not support, encourage, and emphasize the value of education as much as some others. Asian-Americans, in general, test well and graduate in higher proportions, although they frequently have English as a second language not spoken in the home, and are often pretty poor. Why?It seems that culture stresses the value of an education as a means of escaping the cycle of poverty. So expecting the public school system to do the required social engineering to bring about change is virtually impossible without strong community (i.e., parental) involvement. And that’s why it’s likely the ‘minority gap’ will continue despite measures like NCLB.

By Jake

May 18, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this

Amy, pick about any urban California school district at random. Same community, same school and teachers, and guess which ethnic group tests higher and graduates in greater percentages and gets accepted to UC and Stanford? I’ll save you the research and tell you the answer. The Asian-Americans and whites routinely outperform the blacks and Latinos. Your assumption of equally involved parents may explain the difference, but which ‘educational resources’ will change that?

By Staci

May 18, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this

Robert, I understand your frustration with getting students who can not read, do basic math, or write. I teach 8th grade and we are in the same situation that you are in. What really irritates me is that you sound as if you blame middle school teachers. Children DO learn things in middle school. If you want to place blame on someone put it where it belongs. ON THE PARENTS!!! All teachers could teach their hearts out in the classroom but until parents reinforce that education is important we will stay the mediocre state that we are. I am sick of people blaming the school below them. High school blames middle school, middle school blames elementary schools, when we should all put the responsibility back on the parents. We don’t go home with them, we can’t make them complete their work, and we can’t make them try hard on a test. Speaking of test, middle schools are looked at by test. Ever heard of the CRCT or the Middle Grades Writing Assessment? If you have’t look it up. We prepare for these test all year long. Also, in my algebra classes, we take the same end of course test that all high schools take. Amazingly enough all but one of the 31 I teach passed the EOCT. ( Not bad for middle schoolers who learn NOTHING in middle school) You need to step back and re-evaluate and realize that not every middle school or middle school teacher is bad.

By Amy W.

May 18, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this

and it’s not necessarily because the students are unwilling to learn.

I never said that students are unwilling to learn. Maybe you’re referring to Tim’s comment.

But it also appears there are socioeconmic factors, poverty and cultural values that do not support, encourage, and emphasize the value of education as much as some others.

Okay…your arugment about a culture of poverty or the “cultural disadvantage theory” doesn’t fly. Your assumptions that its simply a lack of cultural values that inhibit African Americans and Latinos from succeeding cannot be true. You read the scenario assuming that whites automatically understand what “the value of education is,” and then further assume that Asian students are good because “their culture fosters academic achievement.” So, essentially, you’re implying that African Americans and Latino don’t value education. What kills me is your suggested “model minority” argument that assumes that since “Asians can do it, why can’t other minorities?” Advocating this cultural disadvantage theory implies that Euro American culture is superior, and that if the African American children cannot do well, it is simply because they are not smart enough.

Have you ever thought about researching this topic before voicing your opinion? Why is that we, i.e. whites, assume that our culture is right? Maybe its culture clash in terms of how teachers approach minority students. There’s lots of evidence to suggest, for example, that Latino students work well in collaborating learning groups. So why is it then, that the majority of teachers still lecture to students and keep them as passive learners?

Look, there is a lot of research and debate about this issue. I welcome any informed opinions about the topic. However, I have a problem responding to people to simply assume that if Asian students can succeed as a minority, then African Americans and Latinos should as well. I’m going to stop now before I start rambling, which what I’ve probably been doing in this post.

By Clay Hulsey

May 18, 2005 01:39 PM | Link to this

The edcucational problem in Georgia is cultural. The ability to produce a high achieving student starts at home. In Georgia the home is often a crack house or other impoverished conditions with no moral leadership. These conditions are more often prevelant in minority cultures. Until society truly desires to change these terrible conditions will not change. And this desire to change must come from within the minority groups that are so adversely affected.

By Loretta

May 18, 2005 01:40 PM | Link to this

It is interesting that there is always so much news about dropouts and how everybody wants to fix it! The truth of the matter is that very little is being done to really curtail the dropout rate in Georgia. We generally get half thought out plans to put into motion in an attempt to say that we are really doing something positive about the problem.

To make my point, let me give you an example. It is a requirement in Georgia’s schools that administrators and teachers have the proper PSC certification. However, I know that DeKalb County is sponsoring a charter school, The Gateway Academy, where administrators are neither certified, nor have they had significant experience in working with public school students. This academy is housed at Georgia Perimeter College. It looks like the college and the school system have come together to “help” the dropouts. These students really need help, I admit. I cannot, however, understand why the standards have been lowered for certification for this population who are in desperate need of those who understand public school education and its related laws. Can someone please explain this to me? Are we really doing all that we can to help them when we put people in place who are less than certified? What are these people prepared to do that has not already been done? AJC get busy and get answers to these and other questions!

By David

May 18, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this

How about a graduation test for elementary students before they go to middle school….

By Sly

May 18, 2005 01:59 PM | Link to this

What should we do? I’m not doing anything. Do you think for a minute a northside professional like me can in any way fix the bs we have in the minority community? They have to do it themselves. I’ll just stay the hell away from those areas. Good luck to those living with this pandemic in their midst. Not our problem.

By Jake

May 18, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this

Amy W - I didn’t ascribe values I merely stated outcomes. If you believe higher graduation rates and test scores are ‘good’ or ‘superior’ than the results speak for themselves. But I would prefer you enlighten me on current theory accounting for the observed differences. Obviously your previous weak attempt at explaining it by resource differences won’t fly either, since I cited the differing outcomes at the same schools! theonly resource difference I see in thse cases are the parental/cultural ones.

By Gil Gibson

May 18, 2005 02:15 PM | Link to this

Oh, to be a minority. When I was in high school and I got a bad grade,… it was MY fault.

By Kevin

May 18, 2005 02:27 PM | Link to this

It seems as if everyone assumes that the problem with dropouts is just a poor and minority problem. I would be interested in finding out the how a sample form every race taht fit into the poor and poverty catagory compared to each other and also those who are not poor and poverty stricken. It would dare to say that the numbers of youths that dropout or that do not finish within the four years aloted are very similar. Becasue I feel tha the root of the problem is not area in which one grows up in, but what their young minds are exposed to, the more the better. Unfornately, in order for teachers to be able to expose the kids to the material they first must overome a disciplinary issue that plagues majority of schools. This encompasses all races, becuase there is a gang which has a member of every race in every city of every state.

By Amy W.

May 18, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

Jake: your selected choice of “outcomes” to post on this blog reflect your cultural values. You said it yourself: “But it also appears there are socioeconmic factors, poverty and cultural values that do not support, encourage, and emphasize the value of education as much as some others.” That statement isnt an outcome…its an opinion of your values.

pick about any urban California school district at random. Same community, same school and teachers, and guess which ethnic group tests higher and graduates in greater percentages and gets accepted to UC and Stanford? I’ll save you the research and tell you the answer. The Asian-Americans and whites routinely outperform the blacks and Latinos.

I’d actually be interested in reading those statistics. Could you supply them, please? :) And, when looking at these school districts, be sure to find ONE school district that has a diversified population of students in different schools (similiar to what we’ve referred to here regarding the difference between North Fulton and South Fulton schools, for example) while ensuring that ALL of the schools have access to the same resources that, say, schools in Orange County might have….Like I previously stated, you’re probably not going to find it.

If you’re truly interested in reading about the reasons for such observed differences, I’ll share with you some of the research I’ve done in my graduate edcuation program. I obviously don’t have the time to summarize everything, but I can at least point you in the right direction:

“Thoughts and Affect in American and Chinese Learners’ Beliefs about Learning.” by Jin Li and Kurt Fisher, 2004

“The Significance of Schooling: Life-Journeys in an African Society.” by Robert Serpell, 1993

“Cultural Support fo Schooling: Contrasts Between Japan and the United States.” by Robert D. Hess and iroshi Azuma, 1991.

“Culture and Classroom Reform: The Case of District Primary Education Project, India.” by Prema Clarke, 2003.

“Motivation to Learn: the Pedagogical Nexus in the Russian School: Some Implications for Transnational Research and Policy Borrowing.” by Neil Hufton and Julian Elliott, 2000.

“The Triple Quandry and the Schooling of Afro-American Children.” by A. Wade Boykin, 1986.

this next one may spark your interest, as it throughouly explains the cultural disadvantage theory:

“African-American Children and the Educaitonal Process: Alleviating Cultural Discontinuity Through Descriptive Pedagogy.” by Brenda A. Allen and A. Wade Boykin, 1992.

“Immigration, Family Life, and Achievement Motivation Among Latino Adolescents.” by Carola and Marcelo Suarez-Orozco, 1995.

This was just a small sampling of articles I read….Like I said, if you want to honestly develop an understanding for this issue, then you may be intersted in reading up on what these scholars (which parallel the findings of the Harvard study) have to say about “current theory accounting for the observed differences.”

By dgr

May 18, 2005 02:31 PM | Link to this

Everyone wants to make this a racial issue it is NOT. IT is a socioeconomic class issue. There are MINORITY students succeeding and graduating. I’m a product of APS and was a part of the M/M program where students were bused from South to North. As a small child I could see the difference in economics of the neighborhoods. I know if I hadn’t had the opportunity to go to schools in the Buckhead area my opportunities would have been limited. I traveled the world at Northside going to several different countries, I guarantee you there not traveling out of the state of GA at a South Atlanta city school. IT is definitely parent involvement and the moral foundation from parents. My mother instilled in me morals and values - and it was always my fault. Lets not group minorities please. I teach everyday and I see several Caucasian students wasting there lives away as well.

By carmen

May 18, 2005 02:36 PM | Link to this

High school students will readily tell you that they learned NOTHING in middle school. And College kids will readily tell you they learned nothing in high school. As long as teachers blame each other, nothing will improve.

By dgr

May 18, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

Oh, by the way Sly - you can do something. Don’t procreate; I would hate to think you’re raising a child to be as racist as yourself.

By Patti

May 18, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this

Loretta,

The DeKalb school board voted earlier this month to allow two administrators to be hired for a dropout-prevention charter school even though their qualifications did not meet DeKalb school board standards. The board action gives the employees three years to jump through the hoops necessary to become certified in DeKalb.

Board members said they approved the action because they were impressed with the employees’ resumes. Both have many years of experience working with at-risk students at the college level, not k-12. The charter school is a joint program, k-12 and college.

Gateway to College is modeled after a successful program in Oregon that is funded by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

The program is limited in that it can only help a dropout or potential dropout who is motivated and has the foundation to do high school and college work. The program is aimed at students who need a different setting than a traditional high school.

There are other such nontraditional high school programs, including schools run by Communities In Schools, which also feature small settings and have been embraced by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. These programs really do help kids. I have been to graduation ceremonies and seen the kids walking across the stage. But they don’t have the resources to reach the masses.

If you would like more info, please let me know.

Patti Ghezzi

By cd

May 18, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this

Read John Ogbu’s (University of California, Berkeley) research on the minority gap. He researched Shaker Heights, Ohio, known for its top-notch scores among blacks in the nation. Know what he found? The gap still existed! Why? As his research and interviews indicate, the blacks still cared less about education than their white counterparts.

The problem really is socio-economic. But since many economic lines are, for a large part, drawn down ethnic lines the truth gets blurred. To refocus, look at the same group from different areas. Affluent blacks greatly outperform their impoverished counterparts.

Cosby has it right. Cynthia Tucker has also written excellent articles on the subject over the years. Black problems are no longer white originated. 70% of black children born out of wedlock? Come on, already! That’s not a problem, it’s a damned epidemic! And until the black community decides to accept responsibility for their actions, there is little the educational community is going to be able to do for them.

By cd

May 18, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this

dgr…. I don’t think sly is being racist. Though his words have an edge, he is merely voicing a reasonable argument. “I didn’t cause it… not my problem… fix it yourself.” While it sounds harsh here, it would seem a perfectly acceptable response if America was asked to rescue a failing foreign economy. Even Abe Lincoln said you cannot save the poor by punishing the rich (paraphrased.) If I was an affluent white, I, too, would not care much to help you with a self-created problem I had nothing to do with. Harsh to hear; but realistic as well.

By Teacher, Too

May 18, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this

Ruby Payne addresses many of the poverty issues in “A Framework for Understanding Poverty”. I teach in a high minority, high poverty school where we have been using this book as a resource for working with parents. There is a culture of poverty.

But also, I would like to refer you to Dr. Robert Franklin of Emory University. He spoke at great length on Bill Cosby’s remarks- you can go to: http://www.franklinresponds.blogspot.com/

By dgr

May 18, 2005 03:09 PM | Link to this

I agree CD, Cosby hit it dead on, however the black community is not ready yet and it is a shame. We are losing our children, I worry about my daughters and the selection of a mate for them - will they exist? I agree blacks cannot blame whites for most issues - however some issues still exist. Hidden racism is still prevalent, however it is not making women go and have children out of wedlock. We have to take accountability and not depend on the government to support our children. To me it is a cycle from generation to generation that keeps going… I have a student in middle school age 11, she has a 21 year old sister that had just had a baby AND there mother is 35!! She’s a grandmother at 35. We have a BIG problem.

By Teacher, Too

May 18, 2005 03:12 PM | Link to this

The full text of Dr. Franklin’s response:http://www.emory.edu/EMORY_REPORT/erarchive/2005/February/February7/headingcosby.htm

By MC

May 18, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this

I know GA had bad schools, but I didn’t know it was this horrible. My babyboy isn’t even in Kindergarten yet and I’m scared for him. Maybe I better reenlist in the military just so they can PCS me to another state!!

By MC

May 18, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

I’m just glad that I know the Lord and he saves! Everything is always about black and white. When will it ever stop? Bill Cosby is right in his words. It’s just so sad to see many of my own people ruining their lives and their children’s too.

By cd

May 18, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

dgr…. I know of what you speak. My wife had two pregnant girls in her class, ages 12 and 13. And, get this, they were sisters! Three reasonable points: 1.) White society did not cause this 2.) They are now the PRIME dropout candidates to which this article refers and 3.) What do we really think public education can do for them? Sure it can try to help, but the damage is done. They did it to themselves. And now lack of education has ties to poverty. And poverty has ties to crime, substance abuse, etc. They, in turn, have ties to dropping out…. and the cycle continues.

By Swan

May 18, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this

Cd, have you read John McWhorter’s book “Losing the Race”? He’s at UC Berkeley, too, and he also examined the Shaker Heights situation, came up with similar results.

McWhorter pursues a line of thinking that among many African-American youth today, there is a pervasive mindset (especially among males) that getting good grades and being smart is not cool and indicates a black student is “trying to be white.” As a result, McWhorter believes performance among black students (those in poverty AND high income areas) is slumping in the face of this culture.

I’m not sure that he’s right about this as I have not spent enough time among African-American young people (being an old fogey at 36). I don’t have enough information to have an opinion. But I would be interested to hear what others think about this conclusion, especially teachers.

By Jake

May 18, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this

Amy - Thanks for the reference list. Here’s a link to changes in UC admissions due to cultural bias in standardized testing. Not the precise issue, but related, and the observations and opinions are simialr to my own. http://www.pacificresearch.org/pub/sab/educat/03edindex/04_sat.html I’m not sure UC changing admission policy is a solution either, but then we haven’t really gotten to solutions, we’re still debating causes.
The outcomes I referred to were the graduation rates and SAT scores, which are facts, not the statement you correctly identified as my opinion. You have a somewhat nasty habit of applying your own unique logic to other people’s comments and then telling them what they were implying.
It appears most of the participants in this blog believe the outcomes are different primarily due to cultural differences. You may well have superior knowledge on this subject, as your research list indicates, that outweighs our opinions, but you still have to be able to apply appropriate logic to the information you have. Faulty logic applied to more or better information doesn’t result in a superior opinion. When we cite socioeconomic or cultural differences, it’s because we recognize there aren’t innate intellectual differences due to ethnicity. You went off stating our belief in cultural differences implied white cultural superiority and “that if the African American children cannot do well, it is simply because they are not smart enough”. That wasn’t what I was saying or implying. In fact, I was implying the opposite, the differences in scores and graduation rates are due to cultural factors, i.e., learned behavior, as opposed to innate capability differences. Whites aren’t smarter or otherwise superior, netiher are the Asians, their parents just encourage and support performance in scchools and on standardized tests. It’s really basic Psych 101, most of us eventually become a lot like our parents. And it’s going to be extremely difficult for the public schools to change that, regardless of resources.

By Swan

May 18, 2005 03:33 PM | Link to this

FYI, McWhorter is an African-American.

By dgr

May 18, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this

CD, while white society is not responsible for this - we must be honest to realize that segregation just ended what 40 years ago? The cycle of poverty can be traced before then - so lets not be naive that white society didn’t contribute in some way to some of the problems of black society — HOWEVER we must learn that this does not give us an excuse to not be accountable for our personal actions. That 12 & 13 year old girls mother should be ashamed and blamed NOT the children. The cycle of poverty and ignorance is multicultural.

By Amy W.

May 18, 2005 03:40 PM | Link to this

I just went to the website you suggested concerning Franklin’s remarks about Cosby’s statement. I’m not sure what you read, but Franklin isn’t advocating a “culture of poverty.” :

Emory Report homepage > Current issue front page

February 7, 2005 Hearing Cosby’s call: Franklin responds BY Eric Rangus

Criticism last year of segments of the African American community by comedian Bill Cosby formed the basis of the latest installment of the Center for the Interdisciplinary Study of Religion’s Family Forum Series.

Robert Franklin, Presidential Distinguished Professor of Social Ethics and CISR senior fellow, addressed “Cosby’s Call and Our Response: What the Church and Community Should Do� in front of a full house in Gambrell Hall’s Tull Auditorium, Wednesday, Feb. 2.

“Our purpose is to consider a response to Bill Cosby’s recent campaign to revive a culture of personal and parental responsibility, especially in poor communities,� Franklin said.

Last May at a NAACP gala in Washington’s Constitution Hall commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education Supreme Court decision, Cosby criticized many African Americans in poverty who are “not holding up their end.� He acknowledged a social contact where the haves work on behalf of the have-nots to improve their situations. However, he said, the have-nots must put forth a decent effort to take advantage of available paths out of poverty, Cosby said.

“They’re standing on the corner and they can’t speak English,â€? the Washington Post quoted Cosby as saying. “I can’t even talk the way these people talk: ‘Why you ain’t,’ ‘Where you is,’ … and I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. And then I heard the father talk… . Everybody knows it’s important to speak English except these knuckleheads.â€? Cosby addressed this same subject in subsequent public appearances.

“Relatively few parents are guilty of the behavior Cosby has targeted,� said Franklin, who CISR co-director John Witte called “one of the intellectual treasures of this University campus.� Franklin is former president of the Atlanta-based Interdenominational Theological Society, and his research at Emory is part of CISR’s “The Child in Law, Religion and Society� project.

“A majority of people and families living in poverty make good decisions and rear children well,� Franklin continued. “But ultimately we must demand and design policies and practices that support people who make an honest effort to live better.�

By cd

May 18, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

Swan- Yes it is a great read. And YES is it true in schools (in my experience.) Check out Cynthia Tucker’s “It Isn’t Slavery Chaining Blacks” (9-24-04.)

Realize the truth… teachers don’t stand a chance against a culture.

By Amy W.

May 18, 2005 03:44 PM | Link to this

Jake: the full link isn’t posted…I can’t get to the site.

By Shala

May 18, 2005 04:04 PM | Link to this

If we could just stop blaming our economics for everything. It is a problem, but the books at these schools are free, just read. Asking the teachers a questions, is free! Learning what is presented, IS FREE!! Just teach our kids to exercise these rights they have.

This is where I have a problem. We are pointing fingers, but remember the thumb is right back at you! All of these so call “black people” that have made it don’t reach back. If you’re wandering have I, yes I have. It only takes one person to show a 1st grader interest, especailly if you know that child is missing a mentor. If we start when the children are young that helps the problem.

It use to be the TVs fault. No more excuses! Nielson’s ratings don’t have not one black show at the top, as a matter of fact they never have.

Now, as for those that are not performing up to par, they need specail attention. That means they are not dumb, but something was missed early on. Such as reading, writing and math. It maybe embarassing for them to sit in a class where their knowledge isn’t up to par. This usually means he/she is the class clown. Maybe, just maybe they should be remove to a school where they can be taught what they have missed. This is what testing is all about. This lets the school know where the child is.

Mr. Cosby was right, stop blaming every other race for our problems. We have to try every avenue we can to get these children active in school and outside of schools. There are too many professionals in our community for us to be failing at raising our village!

By Teacher, Too

May 18, 2005 04:08 PM | Link to this

Actually, I was documenting two different sources: one source as documentation for the culture of poverty; the Dr. Franklin response is a point of interest for those who spoke about Bill Cosby. Interestingly, though, Dr. Franklin spoke at great length in response to Mr. Cosby’s comments; his speech was broadcast on Atlanta Forum on February 22 (?) on 90.1. He gave very specific ideas on how the African-American community needed to come together through the church, schools, and community. As a teacher, I found his thoughts interesting and applicable.

I thought the link I posted would provide the entire text of his speech, but it didn’t. I have been trying to locate it, since I think it makes great sense. I may e-mail Dr. Frankin and ask for a copy of it, tho.

By Jake

May 18, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this

I overlooked the “html not allowed in comments” policy. Picking up at sab/educat/01edindex/04_sat.html I just think culture is very real, most of what we call ‘race’ is something fabricated a few hundred years ago. Read Jared Diamond’s The Third Chimpanzee. There is more genetic (DNA) diversity between you and I, being male and female, than their is between the so called races. ‘Races’ don’t really exist, at least not in any meaningful biological context. Unfortunately, racism does exist, and so does the ‘achievement gap’ refered to in the NCLB act.

By Cedia

May 18, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this

Maybe one day African Americans will realize that it is about PRIORITIES….not about EXCUSES. I have a 4 year old that has been reading since he was 3. My husband and I have CHOSEN to spend our money and time on ensuring that he is exposed to and develops an appreciation for learning early in his life in our HOME rather than wait until he turns 4 and goes to “SCHOOL”. Parents are the FIRST and most INFLUENTIAL teachers and YOUR home should be the FIRST school. Maybe if some (and I would venture to say most) African American parents would invest as much money in their child’s education from the day they are born as they spend on expensive clothes and shoes, maybe the dropout rate would decline. Can’t say that though, ask Bill Cosby….

By Amy W.

May 18, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this

it’s because we recognize there aren’t innate intellectual differences due to ethnicity.

Jake, neither you nor anyone on this blog (with your viewpoint) articulated that statement until your last post.

I admit that I applied my logic to other people’s comments…but then again, doesn’t everyone? My point is, I don’t know your background, beliefs, history, etc. All I know is what you post. If you don’t clarify the underlying beliefs behind your posts, it makes it hard for people like me to read them and “assume the best.”

I just reread your posts, while keeping in mind the position you articulated in your last post. Now, your argument makes sense to me. However, I recommend you read the article I cited earlier about the cultural disadvantage theory. Besides summarizing it, it details the major criticisms associated with the theory (i.e. that the theory is limited by only focusing on the individual instead of systemic change, and that programs developed as a result of this viewpoint do not improve the academic performance of African American achievement). The article then focuses on a theory of cultural integrity, essentially saying that we should recognize the link between African American culture and African American cognitive performance, and alter our existing perceptions of mainstream school, as it breeds a sense of cultural discontinuity amongst African Americans.

The authors argue that since education pedagogy in the US is founded upon our own mainstream ideals, the traditional classroom lacks “outlets and vehicles for expression of afro-cultural behaviors.”

The problem is that it decreases the possibility of Black children exercising their existing cognitive and cultural compentencies and that that classes will provide “contextual conditions necessary to sustain and enhance the motivation of the student to engage in required tasks.”

Yada, yada, yada…the article tests his theory, proves it, and then discusses its implications in a real-world setting. Basically, he suggests that younger African American children need to be in classrooms that promote instructional strategies that are centered around their sociocultural background. The author states that if kids are exposed to this early, there is a higher probability that they will academically succeed in the “traditional” high school setting.

Anyway, hope that sheds some light on my reasoning….like i suggested before, I hope you take the chance to read some of the stuff I’ve studied over the past few years.

By Vince

May 18, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this

This is yet another indicator where local control of school systems has been a complete and dismal failure. Without the system of checks and balances proposed by the Barnes administration, education will still continue to be a point of shame for Georgia. Its not a case of white v. black, but rather a case of diminished expectations.

By Amy W.

May 18, 2005 04:19 PM | Link to this

*There is more genetic (DNA) diversity between you and I, being male and female, than their is between the so called races. ‘Races’ don’t really exist, at least not in any meaningful biological context. Unfortunately, racism does exist, and so does the ‘achievement gap’ refered to in the NCLB act. *

I totally agree with you.

By Shauna

May 18, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this

MC,

Honey, please don’t go back into the military!! It is not a good place to be, I know. Just do what my husband and I did, FIND A GREAT PRIVATE SCHOOL!! We did this and we have had great results.

It is a hardship for us and it does hurt our pockets, but we feel that our lovely little girl is worth it. And her grades prove it. Plus, they are more patient with the children. I’m not here because I want to be either, my husband likes it here and I hate it here. I’m here because I love him. I just made the best of the situation. You don’t have to leave GA if you like it here. Just know that you will have to be INVOLVED in every step of your baby’s learning process. And that is the best you can do.

By Stephen

May 18, 2005 04:20 PM | Link to this

A liitle diversion: I’ve been teaching in a school that’s roughly about 35% African American, 40% Caucasion, 20% Latino and 5% other. Each semester I ask my students what they believe they will do after graduation. The majority of African American males say 1.) Pro Athlete, 2.) Rapper/singer. I never hear doctor, lawyer, businessman, politician, scientist, teacher, policeman, etc. (African American females will say lawyer, doctor, teacher, etc.) Most of these students can’t make the school basketball team but believe they will be in the NBA. Hardly any of my white students say Pro Athlete or entertainer. Why does it appear young, African American males feel they only have two options in life? Plus, neither of these two career options emphasizes education - so they feel it isn’t important in their post-high school life.

By Melba

May 18, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this

It is amazing to me that any students graduate when the behavior from elementary through high school is so deplorable, making it most impossible for even the most talented, passionate teacher to impart knowledge to the most willing learners. The school systems have rules but do not seem to consistently enforce them for fear of litigation or retaliation. Thus, disrepect, profanity, gang banging, lewd sexual conduct, obscenity, etc. reign and even the most conscientious students are often drawn into or effected by such disruptions. Teacher education does not prepare it’s students to effectively deal with irreverent behavior; family dysfuntionalism and other societal maladies that affect the children who come to their classes each day. Moreover, many of the teachers are young and suffering from some of the same issues that impact their students. Yet they are expected to function as nurses, counselors, psychologists, ministers, etc. for not only the children but they parents as well. Unfortunately, it seems that education will continue to decline until the system is revamped with expectations for parents to parent; teachers to teach; principals to lead; nurses to heal; counselors to counsel and students to learn. In school suspension is a joke, especially for high school students. If parents were required to report to the school to spend the day siting with their children who have been cited for misbehaviour on the first and subsequent offense, I bet discipline will no longer be a problem. It’s sad but it’s true…missing a day of work or leisure because Johnny won’t sit down????

By Sly

May 18, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this

Okay - all this jabber and noone has proposed something that “we should do”. Because we can’t do anything. It has to come from within. I have many black friends (grew up in Prince Georges County MD - the highest concentration of suburban blacks in the US)and they get the hell out of town too without looking back. Why can’t somebody tell these people what they should do too?

By SET

May 18, 2005 04:26 PM | Link to this

Low IQ students are not supposed to be graduating from high school. Black IQ in the US avg somewhere around 85, whites 100. Even at 100 there will be a certain percentage not expected to graduate. Only 1 in 6 Blacks have IQs above 100. These numbers are from “The Bell Curve” which is 10 years old. Why is anybody in 2005 surprised about Black graduation rates?

If incoming High School students were screened to prevent unqualified students (ie; those reading at 6th grade level or worse) from starting High School those that did might be expected to graduate. What we do now is madness. We need to end social promotions and get non-students out of High School altogether and into trade schools.

And the IQ gap would be narrowed if the government would stop promoting diseugenics in blacks - such as incubators for drug babies and welfare policy in general.

And maybe the government should promote breast feeding and vitamin supplements for newborns… These have been shown to affect the eventual IQ of the children.

I didn’t create this mess so don’t blame me for the numbers. We should work with what we have and try to make things better for the people we have to work with. Racism has nothing to do with IQ. And IQ is why the Black Pathology is with us.

By JJ

May 18, 2005 04:30 PM | Link to this

I have taught for 11 years as a first grade teacher. Every year I have a few students who I believe are NOT yet ready for 2nd grade. Only to argue with parents about how they will catch their child up over the summer. “My child can do the work. You just don’t test him right” “He reads fine to me. Put him in 2nd grade.” Then to my horror… I return next year and that same child who I recomended retention for, is in SECOND grade. I truly believed that child should be retained , as a teacher, I hope that parents and administration would listen to me. But year after year I feel like giving up because of the lack of support. People understand this: As a teacher I do not decide overnight I want to retain Johnny. I have gone through months of trying different techniques, talking with other teachers about their ideas, enlisting the parents help, and seeking tutoring programs for this child. My initial concerns about retention are talked about back in Nov. I work throughout the year to bring this child up to grade level. Why does a parent think that working over the summer will catch them up and more importantly WHERE WAS THIS HELP DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR? So give us the end of the year test. Put something in place that gives those that need it a wake up call. I would never intentionally send on a child to second grade that I did not think was ready. but I know too many of my time I have been second guessed.

By Amy W.

May 18, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this

Jake: I take back any negative comments suggesting that you believe that Euro Americans are smarter than African Americans….as I now direct them towards “SET.”

Low IQ students are not supposed to be graduating from high school. Black IQ in the US avg somewhere around 85, whites 100. Even at 100 there will be a certain percentage not expected to graduate. Only 1 in 6 Blacks have IQs above 100. These numbers are from “The Bell Curve� which is 10 years old. Why is anybody in 2005 surprised about Black graduation rates?

You know what? I’m not even going to comment. I’m done. This topped the cake. I just hope someone responds to these comments.

By Jason

May 18, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this

I have read everyone’s responses on this issue. You must start early with a child with teaching them the value of an education. This responsibility lies with the parent. It has nothing to do with where the families live (North ATL or South ATL). It has everything to do with the parents teaching their kids that it is better to pick up a book after school than turn the TV on or play X-Box.

By SY

May 18, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this

Sly,

What do you mean “these people”? No one who hasn’t ever been exposed to the hardships of being a minority can tell people how to get out. Wanting to get out of the cycle has to come from within. Your parents can’t even make you do it.

I’m lucky, I was born into a bad neighborhood in Cleveland, Ohio, but I grew up and got conceited. (sp) I credit that to getting out. I wanted more, I wanted a big house with a 2 door garage. I wanted what my white friends had. To get that, I had to work for it. My mother could not have made me do it. I had to want to do it.

By David

May 18, 2005 04:45 PM | Link to this

Amy,

I really wanted to post this earlier. I’m afraid that the blog will be cut off before you get a chance to respond. I checked out a few of your citations. I could refer you back to some of mine. Bandura, Beekman, Deci, and Deci & Ryan, Eccles, Freedman, Hall, Hancock … I could go on and on.

All of these authors come back to the conclusion that parental interest in education, an internal locus of control, and internal motivation to succeed are the main factors that control educational, and life, success. Teaching the child/student like they want to “culturally” is ineffective in the long run. The individual has to succeed in the real world. Allowing them to hide from the main stream by using Ebonics and other cultural/ethnic tactics attempts only keeps the individual at a low performing level and does not allow them to compete at the same level as others.

In addition, I categorically reject the idea that schools must “nurture� children as the Harvard study suggests. That is the job of the parents. My job as an educator is to teach the student information. I’m not his parent. It’s mom and dad’s job to teach morality, and to nurture the child. My job is to make sure they know enough information to succeed in life. It’s their job to succeed.

By Jake

May 18, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this

Thanks again Amy. Glad we got through the noise and actually communicated. It’s clear I’m at AJC blog level and you’re at postgraduate symposium level.
I’ll remember to do my homework, and you remember being better educated and better informed might result in a better opinion, but it doesn’t necessarily make you a better person. Peace, love, and out.

By Shooter

May 18, 2005 04:46 PM | Link to this

SY, Are you suggesting all white folks are born into a big house with two car garages? Oh,I forgot white people don’t have to work hard- we’re all just given things because we are white.

By Another Teacher

May 18, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this

Random thoughts as I scrolled through the posts…

Glad someone mentioned Ruby Payne’s work - I read it (and heard her speak), and it helped me understand the children I work with so much more.

We need to remember that the majority of people living in poverty in the US are actually white, although a greater percentage of blacks are in poverty overall. Most of her work applies to the culture of poverty that exists regardless of race.

People in poverty value people and tangible ideas of wealth (i.e. expensive shoes), because that is what they can see and touch and posess. Things like “stocks” or “college degress” are random and meaningless. They live in the now, not the future, so preparing for a future is a seen as a waste of time.

I work at a school that is 70% free and reduced lunch, and about 80% black, 10% Hispanic, and 5% white. More of the well-off black children with involved parents do better than the white children without involved parents. The Hispanic children show a greater respect for teachers than either the black or white children do. Some of my parents are terrific, concerned, hard-working people, but they are hard-working at two jobs just to make ends meet.

“The Bell Curve” caused great controversy when it was published. There are conflicting lines of thought as to how much of IQ is nature (purely genetic) or nuture (nutrition, environment, etc). If a higher percentage of black children are growing up in poverty, then who can determine how that holds their IQs back?

The working vocabulary of a parent is a strong predictor of how well a child will do in school. Compare the vocabulary of a dropout parent to a graduate-degreed parent…is it any wonder it perpetuates?

By Amy W.

May 18, 2005 05:04 PM | Link to this

David, I know you won’t have time to respond, but maybe we can continue the discussion tomorrow….

parental interest in education, an internal locus of control, and internal motivation to succeed are the main factors that control educational, and life, success.

David, I think that’s definitely true as well….but you’re talking about motivation in general, not WHY African Americans and Latinos aren’t succeeding in the classroom….I just don’t see the link. Does your research specifically discuss why Blacks and Latinos (may) not be motivated?

Teaching the child/student like they want to “culturally� is ineffective in the long run. The individual has to succeed in the real world. Allowing them to hide from the main stream by using Ebonics and other cultural/ethnic tactics attempts only keeps the individual at a low performing level and does not allow them to compete at the same level as others.

Why is this? Could you either explain it to me or point me to some articles where I can understand this viewpoint?

Were you citing Albert Bandura? Wasn’t his research about childhood aggression and observational learning? I remember learning his ideas about general motivation and reinforcement, but not about what we’re discussing..I’d be interested in reading some of his articles about the topic.

By David

May 18, 2005 05:08 PM | Link to this

And speaking of the Harvard Study… I don’t have the article, but I remember an individual responding in PAGE’s in house magazine on SAT scores of Georgia. He disaggregated the scores of black and white students and found Georgia’s black students did better than many of the Eastern Seaboard’s black students. I wish I could remember which states they were. One of them was definitely Penn. I want to say New York City schools and Mass. black students were also worse, but I just can’t remember. Our disaggragated SAT scores were almost dead in the middle of the USA based on racial scores. The reason we’re at the bottom is that, on average, black students score lower on the SAT than white students, and we have a lot more black kids taking the SAT. It seems more of Georgia’s black kids are going to college than the rest of the East Coast. In any event, it seems than Harvard needs to look in their own back yard before looking at Georgia.

By Dan

May 19, 2005 08:26 AM | Link to this

Amy here is a hint back to you Don’t compare school to school Compare kids within a school, now you have equal and when you do that it is clear and studies show (ones that evaluate facts rather than political correctness) it is effort and determination that matters as opposed to how new your desk is. I’ve been there I know

By Krystal

May 19, 2005 08:32 AM | Link to this

this blog it seems is dedicated to blacks. so what’s the problem with hispanics? btw, the asians that make it over to the USA are the smartest 1% of their country. i was told that from several of my asian friends i attended school with. their parents made it out of there on a scholarship and that’s why education is so important to them here. have you noticed that the asian americans (the second and third generations) are not up to par with their first generation? any studies on that?

By SY

May 19, 2005 09:01 AM | Link to this

Shooter,

No I’m not suggesting that. I’m suggesting that, where I grew up, that was the norm. I was just expressing that a child has to have inner strength to do better than what they know. If that is the way my post came off then trust me, then I do apologize. That was not my intent.

By SY

May 19, 2005 09:16 AM | Link to this

Krystal,

Good point. I work with two girls from Indonesia and the only reason either of them are here is because their parents make a lot of money in their home countries. People need to remember when it comes to Asians, they come here because the conditions ofwhere they are from are terrible. They come here with the notion of being successful for fear of having to return. To other cultures, this is the place where you come to excel. For people born and raised here, the resources are taken for granted. You can bet that for every Asian that made it over on a work or school visa, there are thousands more trying. It’s like a kid here wanting to go into the NBA or WNBA, the chances are slim.

By david

May 19, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this

Amy,

I wrote a long post fully explaining my statements - citations and all. Unfortunately I forot to sign on and it was lost. Short answers: (1) Yes I did cite Albert Bandura’s work on sef-efficacy. I suggest you re-read it. (2) Not wanting to talk down to you, but “When the only tool on your toolbelt is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.” You need to read articles on general motivation more and less articles that support your views. Correlation does not imply causation, or we would have stopped soft ice cream sales to drop the crime rate years ago. Most of your authors started with the predisposition they were going to find that the discrepancies in test scores were due to discrimination, and that’s exactly what they found. Very, very few education studies have valid raw data - even the ones I’ve read that support my position. It’s only after the data have been altered to fit their conclusions that researchers will present it. find the raw data and subject it to statistical analysis. Most studies don’t prove anything. (3) You’re doing what my dad used to call “palming cards.” Either the cause of lower grades is geneticlly driven by natural selection or it’s not. If it’s natural selection, we can’t fix it. If it’s cultural, we can’t either. You’re playing both sides. Minorities have to live in the real world. An employer won’t even talk to a prospect with his pants down around mid-thigh, his shoes untied, who is talking in rhyming rap. The “real world” has its own culture. If you want to play THE SUCCESS GAME, you play by the rules of society. In most cases, the poor kids don’t want to play. I’ts not about black vs white; it’s rich vs poor. The rich value education; the poor don’t. When poor parents value education, their kids do, and they move up in society. It’s just that simple. Occum’s Razor is as true today as it was back in the olden days of Greece.

(4) The Hispanic second generation in the USA is doing much better. It’s difficult to pick up from a neighborhood where you know everybody and fit in, and then move to another country with a different language and discuss Shakespeare in that brand new foreign language. Our kids wouldn’t do well under those conditions either. Give them time to learn our language. Most of the Hispanic kids I’ve seen want to succeed in our culture, because their parents want them to succeed (yes, I know it’s a small sample).

As I said, when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras.

By Jake

May 19, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this

Sounds like we’re saying the same thing, motivated parents make for more motivated and, therefore, better performing children, Asian, white, black or Hispanic. The issue is what can public education do to compensate for the lack of motivation in some homes? btw SY I grew up around 55th and Broadway and I’ve been a degreed middle class suburbanite for a long time now. Th expectation at my high school was the better kids would get jobs at the steel mills. What you say is very true, not many of the E 55th kids, be it Broadway or Hough Avenue, managed to escape.

By MP

May 19, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this

I come from a large family where half are poor whites and the other half are poor Cherokees on the reservation. The majority of them are high school drop outs. It’s almost sad to be the first and only college graduate in your family in this day and age, but such is the case for me. How did this happen? I didn’t have a rich, educated family. Basically, I saw how everyone was living, and decided it wasn’t for me. I can agree with a lot of the comments on here… about having to want more for yourself, and about the difference between students. As a teacher who has spent her entire student/professional career in majority black schools, I have been falsely accused many times for being priviledged and having everything given to me… this coming from students whose parents drop them off in BMWs and Hummers and live in $150k homes in the suburbs, who have the gall to tell me that I don’t know how rough it is. I quickly remind them that my family lives on a reservation, and last time I checked, conditions were much worse there than in Lithonia or Stone Mountain. To sum it up, you have got to want it for yourself. I don’t care if you’re black, white, or purple. I try to instill this in my students, because sadly enough, some of these kids might have no one else to rely on other than themselves.

By SET

May 19, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this

If I got people like Amy thinking that’s my point. There are physical differences between the ethnic groups that translate to different strenghts and weaknesses. IQ is a composite of different performance indexes of the brain. Ethnics with the same IQ often perform differently in tasks requiring different talents. Start considering the fact that physical differences including IQ are responsible for all the things we complain about in black underperformance in school and in the streets. Early puberty doesn’t help either. Blacks reach puberty (sometimes age 11) years ahead of whites who in turn are years ahead of Asians. Do you realize the problem in dealing with a class of 8th graders with a split of Black White and Asian? By age 18 Blacks have been pubescent for 7 years and Asians 3. You can’t expect aggression, sexual acting out and interest in study to ever be the same. Or the mortality rates.

Having said all that Black are at an advantage in real-time decision making which allows them to dominate trash-talking, basketball etc. Try teaching Asians how to drive sometime. Being “smart” has liabilities at a certain point. Jews are a standard deviation above whites in IQ (avg 115) and with 2% of the US population they dominate finance and a lot of the Nobel Prizes in science. But as a group their weaknesses nearly got them extinguished in the Holocast (12 million Polish Jews allowed themselves to be murdered..The Warsaw Ghetto massacre, etc.)

If Amy thinks I’m attacking anyone and feels threatened, that is part of the process that keeps Blacks down. We have to deal with reality. The current crop of Blacks have an IQ problem. It is killing them. There are some ways of dramatically improving IQ over generations. The opposite is being carried out by this government. For now it will help to manage the low IQ Blacks (and teach them birth control) while identifying and supporting the talented tenth.

Management means the measures discussed in “The Unheavenly City” by Banfield - an old college text. Removal from the gene pool of psychopathic individuals - this is being done now by “3 strikes” legislation in most states. And jack-booted law enforcement so that psychopaths don’t get to hurt people or control anything (like they control black neighborhoods and schools). As far as your high school proplem - I repeat myself in saying that a lot of students (and more blacks than whites by percentage) don’t belong in class next to people with 100 IQs. They belong in trade school where their skills count and they can enjoy success and make a living.

Much of these problems would have not occurred if Johnson’s Great Society programs had not told the dregs of society that the were entitled to unlimited medical care and monthly income (at taxpayer expense)to reproduce for a living.

By Dan

May 19, 2005 03:30 PM | Link to this

So the asians over here are the smartest 1% in their country? Now I haven’t seen a study but logically that is utter nonsense. First of all how are you defining asian? Beacuse a number of countries particularly Japan, South Korea, Tawain, Hong Kong (I know it is part of China but has been ruled differently) have democratic societies, relative to their neighbors. An individual in those countries, or any democratic country, who achieves in the top 1% does not need to leave and probably wouldn’t unless they were looking for a greater challenge because I am sure they would be living quite comfortably where they were. As for the communist countries, assuming they are tested and ranked as the top 1% do you really think they would be allowed to leave? Like cuba they readily allow the lower performers and criminals to leave but certainly not their academic stars. But there is some logic in that those who are in dire straights and posesse the fortitude and werwithall to uproot and start anew probably will excel here because those traits will vault them into the top 10% of people here (even the poor here are spoiled relative to the rest of the world) and they will probably pass that to there kids

By Amy W.

May 19, 2005 04:47 PM | Link to this

i’ve read everyone’s comments, and unfortunately i’ve had a full day of work and just got home….i apoligize for not responding to these comments…i will say however, that i’ve really enjoyed reading other people’s opinions about the issue.

i’m actually more upset now with SET’s comments. why is it that only one person responded to his racist, anti-semitic comments?

Jews are a standard deviation above whites in IQ (avg 115) and with 2% of the US population they dominate finance and a lot of the Nobel Prizes in science. But as a group their weaknesses nearly got them extinguished in the Holocast (12 million Polish Jews allowed themselves to be murdered..The Warsaw Ghetto massacre, etc.)

Johnson’s Great Society programs had not told the dregs of society that the were entitled to unlimited medical care and monthly income (at taxpayer expense)to reproduce for a living.

you’re dealing with a lot of assumptions here.

one, that IQs are actually significant in determining how “smart” a person actually is. i think you’re neglecting the hundreds of studies that have suggested that IQ tests are culturally bias and that there is NO fool-proof way to measure intelligence.

two, the prevailing opinion is that there is NO biological connection to race. what you’re referring to in “The Bell Curve” follows a flawed ideology that essentially projects a racist attitude. Its cultural, buddy. Get with the program.

three, you clearly have preconcieved notions about African Americans and Jews before you decided to post this material, or else you wouldn’t have laced your comments with such hateful words.

four, you have a lot of nerve to suggest that there is some inherent weakness in jewish people that caused them to die in the holocaust. and fyi—judaism isn’t a race, its a religion. screw you.

By SY

May 20, 2005 08:29 AM | Link to this

Amy W.,

I think that the reason no one responded to SETs comments are because they were worthless to begin with. Sweetie, don’t let him/her upset your spirit. There will always be racist people in the world and we just have to deal with them.

By Dan

May 20, 2005 08:42 AM | Link to this

Amy SET is a bit over the top, but you are dealing with just as many assumptions, clearly there is no fool proof measure of intelligence but IQ tests are and have been proven to be the best we have and they display a much stronger correlation to success than culture. Those who dispute that also dispute SAT and such and while not perfect, it is still the most consistent predictor of college success despite what the politically correct (equivilent to intellectually stinted) think.

By tm

May 20, 2005 09:19 AM | Link to this

Amy,

I have taught suburban upper class school districts and the poorest of rural districts. The problem is not money or equipment. The poor rural districts have so much more money from grants and because of the free/reduced lunch rates. The poor rural districts have more technology and more money for special programs, but they still perform lower on test. The main problem I see as a teacher is a lack of values in the home. 95% of my students come from homes without fathers. Men are basically sperm donors- not fathers. Most of my students are raised by grandparents. Many of them are the children of a teen parent and have become teen parents themselves. Bill Cosby hit the nail on the head. We all need to wake up and stop tolerating low performance and lack of values. The answer to the problem is not money. The answer to the problem is a wake up call in the black community. The nuclear family (Dad, Mom, and children) needs to be the norm again. My son’s school sponsors Doughnuts for Dads. My husband went this year and commented on the low numbers of fathers in attendance. He said most of the children brought mom. One of my collegues commented that the word “tolerance” has corrupted our value system. We tolerate way to much crap in schools today!!!

By Amy W

May 20, 2005 09:31 AM | Link to this

dan,

its more of the racist comments he asserted as opposed to his statements about the IQ test that bothered me….yea, i have problems with the IQ test’s validity; however, that doesn’t excuse him from making those comments.

and the IQ test is culturally bias. say you get a student who just moved to the us from a different country….and he/she had to take an IQ test….below are some sample questions:

True or False: There are seven letters between K and R in the alphabet.

If read backwards, the phrase “now live” answers the question: “In the battle between good and evil, who was victorious?”

If ‘boffing’ is understood to mean ‘shot’ then the following sentence is correct: ‘The young footballer from Gloucester took a desperate boffing, but he was unable to boffing past the star defender.’

Multiple Choice:

Even the most ___ rose has thorns. Ugly Weathered Elusive Noxious Tempting

all of these questions test characteristics that are learned— not innate, inherent “smart” qualities that people possess. iq tests ask a lot of verbal/vocab questions. so are we to assume that anyone who doesn’t understand english or whom comes from a different culture isn’t intelligent?

its also important to note that IQ tests only measure one type of intelligence….they don’t assess creativity, musical talent, or any of the multiple intelligences that howard gardner or other prominent educational theorist advocate…or the fact that students learn and acquire information differently…the IQ doesn’t assess any of these factors

By Amy W

May 20, 2005 09:48 AM | Link to this

david, i wanted to respond to one of your comments:

Either the cause of lower grades is geneticlly driven by natural selection or it’s not. If it’s natural selection, we can’t fix it. If it’s cultural, we can’t either. You’re playing both sides. Minorities have to live in the real world. An employer won’t even talk to a prospect with his pants down around mid-thigh, his shoes untied, who is talking in rhyming rap. The “real world� has its own culture. If you want to play THE SUCCESS GAME, you play by the rules of society. In most cases, the poor kids don’t want to play. I’ts not about black vs white; it’s rich vs poor. The rich value education; the poor don’t. When poor parents value education, their kids do, and they move up in society.

okay, i agree with you that “the real world,” is its own culture. but, be aware that it’s OUR real world, i.e. western, american ideals. i do agree to some exent that if people want to succeed in “our world,” they would have to abide by our business standards, such as office attire. however, i sincerely doubt that all poor people don’t value education. true, the apple may not fall far from the tree, but again, you are equating wealth with values. lots of generalizations, here.

1, not all poor people lack the perception to see that education doesn’t have value. there are many examples of people who weren’t wealthy and “worked their way up.”

2, i particularly don’t like your assumption that all minorities walk around in pants down to his knees, “ryhming rap.” clearly all minorities don’t dress that way, nor act that way.

3, the study i summarized earlier discussed the relationship between culture and school with minority children. how to respond to the statements when they said that if younger african american students are in classrooms that promote instructional strategies that are centered around their sociocultural background, there is a higher probability that they will academically succeed in the traditional high school setting. so, its possible to find remedies for the situation if indeed lower grades are a result of cultural issues, not “natural selection.”

By Amy W

May 20, 2005 10:07 AM | Link to this

tm: i agree with you that parent involvment has something to do with it, but its merely one component of a variety of factors.

the problem that i have with people who think its merely an ecomomic, not racial issue, is that race and poverty are historically intertwined.

i honestly couldn’t, or wouldn’t suggest a way to solve the fact that many african american students are products of a one-family household. i couldn’t even suggest a reason as to WHY this occurs…

however, i don’t necessarily think that a “nuclear family” comprised of a mom and dad will solve the problem. i personally wouldn’t care WHO raised the children, as long as they were properly cared for, read to starting a young age, etc.

By SET

May 20, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this

Well I hope the exchange between Amy and I have people thinking. That’s what public discourse is for. Let me answer her last complaints:

*“one, that IQs are actually significant in determining how “smartâ€? a person actually is. i think you’re neglecting the hundreds of studies that have suggested that IQ tests are culturally bias and that there is NO fool-proof way to measure intelligence”

Yes, IQ testing is valid and can get around cultural problems. You can test non-verbal people now Amy. There are a variety of tests that produce reliable numbers including tests that measure reaction time to visual images. Your complaint is old hat. You are stuck with IQ disparities you can’t dismiss.

*“two, the prevailing opinion is that there is NO biological connection to race. what you’re referring to in “The Bell Curveâ€? follows a flawed ideology that essentially projects a racist attitude. Its cultural, buddy. Get with the program.”

This is public discourse. We don’t know each other or anything about each other. I’m not your buddy. Stop complaining that data and numbers you don’t like are “racist” and deal with it on an intellectual level. Continue to make at least facially reasonable excuses for disparity. The word “racist” won’t work with me or anybody else who is interested in stopping the distruction of another generation of black youth. All I care about is results.

*“three, you clearly have preconcieved notions about African Americans and Jews before you decided to post this material, or else you wouldn’t have laced your comments with such hateful words”

Amy, If you think this is “hateful” you have lived a sheltered life. People who bring you bad news are never “hateful” and the truth is never “hateful”. Your complaining is crying wolf. Maybe you have never met the real thing - because you are still with us. If you hide behind “hateful” and “racist” you will never be taken seriously.

*“four, you have a lot of nerve to suggest that there is some inherent weakness in jewish people that caused them to die in the holocaust. and fyiâ€â€?judaism isn’t a race, its a religion. screw you.”

This point was important and you are missing it. The fact that a group of people are more intelligent than another group - as Jews clearly are to Whites - masks weaknesses that come with higher IQ. If you haven’t read the numbers on ethinicity and national averages and IQ you are behind the times. There is such a thing as being too smart for your own good. The higher levels of alturism that go with intelligence makes a group vulnerable to predators and invasions that a lower IQ group would recognize and ruthlessley repel. Higher IQ populations tendency towards order and conformity can be used against them by those who never play by any rules. But they will win all the good Nobel Prizes, make great Moon rockets, etc. (But collectively allow their families to be marched into a gas chamber)

As a group Blacks have lower IQ and that is why they can’t finish any good high school in large percentages. Forget Universities. It can’t happen. But we can make a better future for the masses of black youth than the early graves and prisons that we are deliberately promoting now with current policy. It would start with intense dicipline and vocational training for those not intellectually equipped for sitting in High School. They do have strenghts even greater than the average whites. Not just in basketball and trash talking. Maybe those skills would transfer to Air Traffic Control?

Oh and in my county, blacks are 5% of the population, 60% of the new AIDS dx with an average age of 24 at Dx, which means they were infected at age 14 to 15. Since we are only picking up old infections with current Dx we fear we are sitting on an iceberg of infections of the current black teens.

Think of it as evolution in action.

If standard TB control measures were applied to AIDS control we’d stop this epidemic in it’s tracks just as the national syphillis epidemic of 1918 was stopped (Which operated the same way as AIDS - long incubation and no cure). Yet our government led by the democratic party here deliberately allows this to continue. Guess who controls the democratic party here? Jews and liberal whites kept in power with the votes of blacks.

I’m tired of the current generation of black teens facing overwhelming odds of AIDS, Prison (3-strikes) and No Driver’s License (Black Males by 25 as a rule can’t keep a license around here because they can’t comply with regulations). None of these things were a problem in 1960 which I remember. And the numbers and trends say it will be much worse in a generation.

This is why I want the schools to change.

But don’t get personal. For all you know I’m only saying these things to get the debate going! Have a good day at work.

By Amy W

May 20, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this

from the way you wove your “intelligent” comments around racial and anti-semitic comments, i would pray that you really aren’t an ignornant, kkk member living in the metro area. in fact, i truly hope you are a well educated person who truly believes that african americans have the the same innate ability to achieve a “high” iq score as whites…instead of thinking that they should give up and either infect them with AIDS or ship them into the military. “maybe its evolution in action”?!? Hitler advocated this belief….its called social darwinism, and EVERY major scholar over the past 50 years has disproved it. the only people who support this innane theory now are those like yourself, racists who truly believe that some groups of people are inherently unequal to others.

i really hope you don’t have children, as i’m sure you would unfortunately spread your racist viewpoints to them.

By SET

May 20, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this

Oh, one more issue related to blacks coming out of high school. In California and elsewhere Affirmative Action is being made illegal at least in government decisions. I support this. When you baby people they never grow up. What’s more ominous is the rapid spread of computerization and the use of credit scoring. Where I work we don’t even allow volunteers and student interns to come in without backgrounding. This includes credit scoring and reports. Guess which group has the most trouble passing the screens set up to keep out flakes?

With cheaper computers business and individuals can quickly sort desirable from undesirable people to do business with. And it’s getting harder to escape the reputation you’ve personally made. This wasn’t going on in the decades past. Credit scoring is now universal for employment, housing and insurance.

Children brought up to yell at their teachers and not be responsible will never survive as adults in this brave new world. We have to reform the schools.

As to the driver’s license comment - To keep a license you have to take care of your tickets and hopefully not get them. Take a look at any traffic court in an urban area… Also if you have any drug or alcohol conviction of any kind in Calif the DMV computer takes your license forever until you wait a year minimum and then go through hoops including getting in line, paying a fee and maybe going to drug/alcohol school (if under 21 on alcohol, no matter what age for drugs). For one reason or another black males after a certain generation have difficulty keeping a license.

If you’re caught driving without insurance the fine is $1600 reduced to $500 if you get insurance. (Credit scoring and zip code issues with insurance)

If you drive without a license your car is towed and “jailed” for as much as 30 days ($750 and up to get the car back by a deadline or the car is sold)

It goes on and on. I see Black adult males on bicycles. The bus riders are largely minorities and the bus districts are cutting bus routes….

Whites usually get licenses at 16 - blacks don’t because of the requirements to take classes and deal with the DMV. At 18 you don’t have to take the classes but you still have to pass the DMV tests.

My wealthy black friends are refusing to get licenses for their children at 16 because they don’t want them driving till 18. Afraid they will get killed or arrested. I can’t believe this….. It’s not that some bad person will attack the kid. They come right out and say they don’t want to risk the poor judgement of their child and his friends and what they would do with access to a vehicle.

This goes back to my complaint about what’s happening in the schools. If you stop trying to make these kids happy or comfortable - let them know what you reasonably expect from them, back it up with swift rewards and dramatic punishments - things will usually work out. Nobody seems to want to fight with black kids (as opposed to others?) Maybe the teachers are reasonably afraid they’ll be hurt or killed. That’s why administration has to pre-sort the crowd down to students who are in school to graduate.

By David

May 20, 2005 11:46 AM | Link to this

Amy,

Remember, you’re angry at SET, not me. (1) I never said, nor implied, that poor people do not value education. The ones that do, have children that succeed. The ones that don’t - don’t. That was my point. The problem is that the large majority of poor people don’t value education; therefore, the problem re-occurs from generation to generation. This is a form of cultural “natural selection.” You can see that in the lottery. Many of the winners blow right through the money and are back being poor people quickly. Achieving an education is difficult work, similar to physical work. It’s difficult and tiring. If the children’s parents do not value this effort, neither will their children. It has to do with the parents, not the quantity of the school resources. My school is a poor, rural school that values football, not an education. The children of parents that care about education find scholarships and get loans to attend college. And they do quite well in comparison to the rich school districts. In many cases, they out perform them – black and white, thank you very much.

2) Minority students who conform to the basic standards of our society achieve. Minority students who don’t – don’t. This is the same no matter what their skin color (other than the outliers, e.g., singers, musicians, computer programmers, etc.). This has been true throughout history. And I don’t like your assumption that I hold an entire group of people in disdain. I only mean what I say. Once again, you’re letting your predispositions color your thinking.

3) If you talking about making the concepts “relevant to them,� I will agree in general. I think all experienced teachers try to do this no matter what color of skin the teacher or student has. Specific instances, however, must be taken one at a time for instructional purposes. Studies rarely can be generalized to great degrees. Each attempt at generalization must be measured back to the original study for comparison. For example, look at how Gardner’s theories have been taken out of context.

By Dan

May 20, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

Clearly an IQ test is only reliable when taken in a native or fluent language. But it does provide indicators as to creativity and adaptabilty and different learning styles. As a matter of fact that is the primary function, they are designed to determine the ability to learn, process and store information from different sources, not to assess the current level of learning. To truly excel in this world one must learn unlearn and relearn, so besides the fact that creating a test to conform to every variable it would completely undermine what the test is designed for. The fact is all people are not equal in ability or intellect, luckily one of the rarest traits is work ethic. This trait can be learned and nurtured and it allows people to surpass those with more natural ability.

By David

May 20, 2005 11:58 AM | Link to this

Amy,

In closing out my thoughts, you and I agree on many issues, but we disagree on how to solve them. I believe that public schools cannot affect the major reasons why children do not succeed in school, the primary one of a failure to put off self-gratification now for success later. That is either controlled by genetics, or by the attitudes of the parents that are passed on to their children by “culture.� It is immaterial to the problem. You believe that, with sufficient resources, educators working with kids for 6 hours a day for 180 days at-a-time can overcome years of past, present, and future parental actions. I disagree. On this issue we will have to agree to disagree. I wish you success in your Ph. D. studies.

By SET

May 20, 2005 01:26 PM | Link to this

I just re-read Amy’s post and wondered what doctoral degree program she could possibly be in. Education. I was afraid of that.

The belief system currently in vogue in that field is what has fanned the flames of distruction for two generations now. Blacks have been hurt worse than whites by it.

I suspect that Amy’s training will lead her to urban public schools. The future power structure of this nation will not be in those schools. They are all in church (Catholic for example) and private schools. I have read that Los Angeles Unified is down to 7% white.

I don’t believe that “educators” in the public system are (allowed to be) tough enough or pragmatic enough to save these kids.

Here in Northern CA I have friends (including Blacks) that pay $18 thousand per child for Catholic High schools in the SF area, $10 thousand per child for Catholic schools in the East Bay, $6 thousand per child for Catholic schools in the Sacramento area. The parents have all used sterilizization after the last child. They can’t afford many children. All this to escape the “education” in public schools.

I have a doctorate also. Mine doesn’t allow me to indulge in wishful thinking and to ignore data. And I’m old enough to remember when a poor black family consisted of a father and mother and their children. 1960’s pre- Great Society. Everybody was expected to do better than their parents. Even Black Folks. Thank’s to President Johnson’s good intention’s that’s all been replaced with an 80% urban black bastardy rate. The rest is history. We’re building a lot of gated communities.

The mess we are in was caused by good intentions just like Amy’s. My “children” will survive and thrive, Amy. What is happening to yours?

Your comments on whether I’m nice or not are laughable in public debate. Don’t you understand that people who “love” (agree with, support, make you comfortable, etc) you can love you to death? Unconditional Love is Unconditional Enabling. I don’t “owe” you love. Life is a business. You get nothing for free.

Read The Bell Curve. Then read Phillipe Rushton, and Thomas Sowell’s “Ethnic America”. Then go teach in public schools.

By Mary

May 24, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure why this all centered on race and specifically black vs white outcomes. Many kids, of all races, are struggling with finishing high school. GA doesn’t do all it can to graduate these kids, to help them succeed. That’s all there is to it. As a school system, and a state, they shouldn’t make it more difficult for the kids. They should help them, intervene when possible, go the extra mile, and even more so for the kids that need it more. We do it for special ed kids, why not the low-graduating kids?

The laws they pass regarding driver license, discipline problems, I don’t believe it’s going to help. It seems like obstacle after obstacle for these kids. The schools shouldn’t be in every aspect of a student’s life. Some things should be left to the parents and authorities. If you’re in a fight or caught with liquor outside of school or school event, why is the school intervening? The school’s role should not be to police these kids. If we’re going to treat them like criminals, the kids will behave that way, and they’ll just leave school. Wouldn’t you dropout out of jail if you could?

One thing GA schools could definitely try harder - keeping those schools interesting! GA has limited options for kids in middle and high schools. It’s mostly very basic curriculum, dry, boring, unchallenging. How about more focused programs such as pre-eng, pre-med, science, math, foreign langauge immersion, IB, challenging schools. In every community, there are kids that will seek these schools out and love them. Kids don’t want to go to school to be bored by teachers that teach to the lowest level of the class. Then teachers wonder why some of the kids with most potential misbehave so much? They snooze? Gee. They want to find schooling interesting, worth their time, enough to even “stay awake� and actually attend.

Some folks mentioned Chamblee. Chamble High and Middle are home to the high achievers magnet programs. They both offer the program, and while I have no research to show, I’m sure there’s a nasty lottery to get into the program. The middle begins in 7th grade, though. So Kittredge serves 6th graders, and I know there’s a nasty lottery for that program. One year parents were crying on the news because their kids didnt’ make it into Kittredge. Why are the neighborhood schools not meeting these kids needs? I think it says more about the negatives of the regular schools than the positives of the specialized Kittredge.

One of the schools we attended was ~ 99% black, we’re white. One of my kid’s teachers once said that this was her last year at that school, in South Dekalb. Although she was black, she was tired of the environment, and specifically the “priorities” of the parents. She said they were more focused on whether their children had the coolest shoes and jeans, than the education. So much that the school implemented a dress code before the county-wide dress code to combat the materialism. However, there are options to help the kids themselves. The kids have to want it, regardless whether the parents recognize their achievement. I’ve seen low income schools that put a lot of effort into recognizing kids achievements, no matter how small. It makes a huge difference. They rise to the challenge, as they say. Even if the recognition levels need to be lowered, give them something achievable, and it will happen. Yes, it may be ‘babying’, but if it’s going to help these kids (regardless of race, again) succeed at the higher grades, I’m all for it.
My kid went to a very low-performing school. He was in gifted classes. They didn’t offer gifted services. The teachers got together and suggested the book ‘teaching gifted kids in the regular classroom’. They would pre-test him, and if passed, he got these fun, challenging, individualized projects to do. He didn’t have to listen to teachers teach what he already knew. It was a great setup, although a little bit alienating. but, after a few weeks, one of the teacher said something a little surprising had happened. About 25% of the class was doing the projects. Over the weeks, more and more kids wanted to take the test and get those projects, and they did. They weren’t being recognized at home for their abilities, but they received better tailored education at school, and they enjoyed it.
So, while I agree that the educators can only do so much to counter the problems, whether they be socioec or cultural, I strongly disagree there’s nothing they can do.

By Elizabeth Porcelli

May 30, 2005 08:26 AM | Link to this

By Elizabeth Porcelli

May 30, 2005 08:34 AM | Link to this

Wanting my children to be competitive within a national/global marketplace and the stigma that exits within Georgia’s schools, I do not see how that is possible. After all, not one of Georgia’s High Schools was listed in “The 100 Best High Schools in America� ( Newsweek, May 16, 2005). Walton, in Cobb County, was listed at 159 out of 200. Add this article to high dropout rates and low SAT scores; I wonder why more parents aren’t taking action and why is Cathy Cox even running for Governor? Good thing my oldest is in a private school and we are also moving out of state.