Get Schooled

By Ann

May 17, 2005 02:23 PM | Link to this

Clearly, a teacher with 23 years of experience, who is loved by both parents and students should be fired for one minor infraction. (if it really was an infraction) We already have too many qualified teachers in this state anyway. Why would you want a teacher who has high expectations for students? If you make high expectations, then you can’t properly water down the curriculum. Everyone knows that!

By Shauna

May 17, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

Ann,

That was good. I don’t think that he should have been fired anyway. Something is wrong with this system.

By Erin

May 17, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this

Best of luck to you Doc! I hope it works out for you. I also hope it works out for the students that you return.

By LISA

May 17, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this

To the teacher:Please go on with your life, God will open another door for you just stop and listen and look right now,Okay!!This battle is not yours and this incident is bigger than you.right now you have a teacher who was exposing kids about there culture at Tri-Cities High.Now he have been fired for doing that,you had students begging and pleading with the principal to not fired him.this teacher made a profound impact on the kids.So you see they don’t want teachers who stand for truth and righteousness.they only want program bodies who cater up to the principal who probably was a gym coach.God Bless You.

By LISA

May 17, 2005 02:49 PM | Link to this

Teacher just enjoy the rest of your life.

By Trey

May 17, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this

This case has the possibility to change educational policy regarding assessment statewide…and not for the better. Schools will have to start setting policies that strictly outline what is a “discipline” infraction and how that should be dealt with and what the teacher can and can’t do, explicitly. I would have always thought sleeping in class should directly affect a kid’s grade, especially if participation is required. Is it never ok to give a zero, or half credit? Do educators always have to give multiple opportunities for make-up work that kids miss that sleep through class? Where do we draw the line? When will the students be held accountable? These are the kinds of things that schools will have to start seriously looking at b/c I can almost guarantee you, Doc won’t be the last teacher fired for this type of infraction, it’s only the beginning….it’s a sad day for education when a teacher of 23 years, a physics teacher nonetheless (not that any other subject means any less, but I believe most of you would agree that finding a good physics teacher is a very hard thing to do!), gets fired for something like this, but teachers can’t have students expelled that threaten violence, get into weekly fights, and curse and scream at teachers and students…we have to reason with the children, give them infinite opportunities to screw up enough…. such a lack of administrative support is the reason you can’t keep teachers around.

By Amy W.

May 17, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this

this incident makes me wonder why georgia doesn’t have unions….if this happened in the north, he wouldn’t have been fired.

By Stacy

May 17, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

I hope the Gwinnett County School Board will take this opportunity to redeem themselves for the mistake they’ve made. This may be their saving grace - I hope they take full advantage of this chance to possibly begin to renew our faith in their ability to represent us.

By David

May 17, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this

Sorry guys, this one striks too close to home for me. The only thing that would come out if I said anything would be a scream of rage. I have a masters in educational leadership (yes, I know it’s supposed to be capitalized - not this degree though). The difference between receiving it and actually becoming an administrator is that I only have to have the labotomy if I actually take a job as an administrator.

Instead, I refer everybody to the following web-site. Donald Simanek’s site It was put together by a friend of mine. He is either already retired or in the process of retiring from teaching physics at the university level. He has an excellent sense of humor; you couldn’t tell it from this presentation though. After reading the depressing state of affairs of public education, you might want to check out the rest of his pages - he is quite funny.

By Swan

May 17, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this

Amy, unions of any kind have never, ever been popular in the South. I’m no expert on history but I attribute it to the faster industrialization of the Northeast. The South was agrarian for far longer and the sharecropping system did not lend itself to unions. Any attempts at unions in textile mills were usually quickly quashed for fear workers will demand too much. The only kind of unions I can think of off the top of my head that are successful in the South are the auto workers, pilots and electrical/engineering ones.

I don’t see teacher unionization ever happening in Georgia. The bureaucrats will never allow it.

By Ann

May 17, 2005 03:43 PM | Link to this

Actually, the reason that there are no teacher unions is because teachers are state employees. It is illegal for state employees to unionize or go on strike.

By Danielle

May 17, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this

Does anyone know what has come of this student? From what I have seen/heard he has always been a “slacker”. I understand the other teachers not coming public for fear of their own jobs, but why hasn’t the student’s parents come public? Does the student himself seem to care about any of this?

By Ann

May 17, 2005 03:59 PM | Link to this

Danielle, from what I have heard Doc say, the student is a good student, but has had an issue with sleeping in class on more than one occassion.

By Shauna

May 17, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this

Danielle has a point, where is this childs parents? Why haven’t they stepped up and admitted that their son was very, very wrong.

Maybe they don’t care. Maybe they are content watching a teacher - a good teacher - lose everything that he worked for. Some parents - no wonder the kid doesn’t care.

By David

May 17, 2005 04:38 PM | Link to this

Shauna, Danielle, and Ann,

His parents have come forward. His Dad is the %^&^% that screamed and showed his backside in the principal’s office that precipitated all this. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, “I’ve never seen a ‘bad’ kid where I didn’t see a ‘bad’ parent.” That doesn’t mean that a ‘bad’ parent can’t be rich, famous, and deeply religious - simply the ‘bad’ parent doesn’t know how to raise a child properly.

By Disgusted Parent

May 17, 2005 04:44 PM | Link to this

Shauna - read the earlier blogs to get the whole story. The main reason for this mess is the child’s father. He whined to the principal because his baby boy was given a lower grade after sleeping through a lab (any questions on how a student could sleep through a lab and still be able to complete the assignment with a perfect score?). Anyway, this apple certainly didn’t fall far from the tree.

By James

May 17, 2005 05:02 PM | Link to this

The bottom line is that Doc Neace broke the rules just like the student did. Neither of them deserved the punishment that was handed down. The student was able to get the proper grade reinstated, but at the expense of ignorant outsiders labeling him as a ‘slacker’ or ‘pampered athlete’. The more I read about this story, the more I’m glad Doc was fired. This is a man that felt like he was above the school policy, and didn’t have to answer to anyone. How is this a good thing? The student was wrong to sleep in class, but he did his work all the same. Doc simply needs to find a better way to run his classroom.

By Jake

May 17, 2005 05:08 PM | Link to this

The relevant issue was that Doc did the right thing, trying to transmit not just knowledge but values, in the wrong way (their policy is grades are not to be used for disciplinary purposes). Since the principal and Board took the parent’s side, they made it clear what they value, and it isn’t paying attention in class or retaining excellent teachers. Although it’s unfortunate for some of the students, this school doesn’t deserve a fine teacher like Doc, and it seems he would be better off elsewhere.

By Danielle

May 17, 2005 05:20 PM | Link to this

I was just wondering because he and his family have stayed quiet this whole time. I would think if they were so proud of themselves they would publicize their names and faces. I am a pubilc school educator, in special education, so I know that many kids are rude and disrepectful but their parents have allowed them to be that way. I also know that teachers need to use something to keep the kids paying attention, especially in high school. There are many teachers that accept late papers with 10 points taken off. I guess the solution would be not to do that at all anymore. But I was also wondering if this kid is so perfect that he Never breaks the rules. Does he follow the Gwinnett County dress code every single day? Never copies, commits plagerism, leaves or arrives to class late without a pass or proper/legal excuse? Just wondering. The rules should go both ways.

By Shauna

May 18, 2005 09:05 AM | Link to this

Disgusted Parent,

Nowhere in the blogs posted before mine was there any mention of where the child’s parents were. No need to tell me to read the earlier blogs to get the whole story. I was asking a question because I was trying to get the “whole story”. I know that this is an update but I wasn’t able to participate in the first blog about this story. I never heard anything about the boy’s father. Getting the “whole story” is EXACTLY what I was trying to do.

By Jennifer

May 18, 2005 09:18 AM | Link to this

Shauna,

There were a few posts in one of the other blogs (you can still read the comments) that gave very detailed descriptions of the hearing, which will let you hear more about what actually happened. It’s worth weeding through the comments to get a better feel for what actually took place.

By Shauna

May 18, 2005 09:26 AM | Link to this

Jennifer,

Thanks, I will read them.

By Jake

May 18, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this

James - Your bottom line ignores the fact that Doc was consistent in his policies, although they conflicted with school policies, for ten years or more. The school Administration did the most wrong here, failing to enforce their own policies for ten years, then suddenly enforcing them in a very severe manner because some athlete’s father complained. The principal is the one that should be fired.

By Karen Armsby

May 18, 2005 10:40 AM | Link to this

My three children went all the way through Gwinnett County Public Schools, and no I didn’t turn them over to the government for their education, because education began and continues in my home in partnership with the schools. I stressed good study habits, lots of reading, critical thinking, and respect and compassion for others. So far my kids are doing very well in their college careers.

The biggest problem I see with GCPS is that there has been an increasing trend over the years to establish more rules, guidelines, policies, and layers of bureaucracy. Their ‘business’ of education is losing its focus on learning. The black and white adherence to rules and no tolerance policies doesn’t reflect what happens in the real world where dialogue, intent and due process are considered.

I think GCPS management has lost the power of dialogue, of listening and discussing. If there is no dialogue and no critical thinking going on at the top, that trickles down through management to the teachers and students.

So what is learning? It seems to me that to GCPS it is achieving the AKS skills; it’s test performance statistics; and it’s adhering to rules, even in the face of ambiguities.

There are many rules we have to follow throughout our lives, and I am not saying rules are not needed. But I think our teachers and students should not be so constrained by the rule and policy structure that they lose the power of dialogue and the freedom of critical thinking, with the result that they can’t develop the love of learning that goes on long after formal education has finished.

Doc Neace is dedicated to that love of learning, and he has inspired many students over the years, regardless of what grade they made in his classes. He taught them to think critically, to research, and to interact with him and their classmates, in other words, to have a meaningful dialogue. His focus is on learning and GCPS should wake up and smell the coffee, and reinstate Doc Neace.

By JR

May 18, 2005 10:51 AM | Link to this

For him it may be a mixed blessing. He just hit the lottery! He should get a good attorney and see how much the Dacula school system will pay out!!

Teachers there are watching and future teachers will take note of what happened to him. Unless there is something that was not reported this will haunt the hiring in that county.

I guess this shoots down any arguments about school tenur for teachers, huh.

By JR

May 18, 2005 10:53 AM | Link to this

He may have just hit the lottery! I wonder what a decent lawyer can wring out of that school system.

Teachers in that county are on notice and are noticing. Future hires will think twice before going to work there.

Tenure critics have one less argument after what happen to him…

By Dan

May 18, 2005 11:08 AM | Link to this

He probably will be better off, however it does nothing to undermine tenure critcs. Assuming administrators are consistent in there pitiful no exceptions policy, the mathematical fact that above average teachers are outnumbered by average and below average teachers along with the fact that below average teachers will be released for other reasons, cheating on std tests etc means that more underperforming teachers will be released. Now we just have to replace them with capable candidates, which I agree is a difficult task

By Danielle

May 18, 2005 11:46 AM | Link to this

Does anyone know about the student? Dacula High parents/students? Is this student or his family upset? Do they even care? How is this student being treated by other students? Doc Neace’s firing affected a lot of students. They now have a long term sub that knows nothing about Physics with finals coming up. How are the teachers in that school? The neighbors? We all know how the teacher is doing? I am wondering because I feel like Doc Neace got a bad deal. I work in a school system. I started in Gwinnett and am now in another county, but feel that the student should have to take some responsibility too, by being the best student that ever walked the face of the earth.

By James

May 18, 2005 12:45 PM | Link to this

Jake - I agree that the principal failed to do his job by not challenging Doc’s policy on the front-end. However, let’s not act like the policy was justified simply because it was consistent. If a parent beats a child consistently for talking, does that make the parent right in the eyes of the law? Of course not! My problem is that Doc isn’t just a victim of the system as many people have made him out to be. It also galls me to hear people attack the student that did his work and earned a perfect grade because he’s an athlete. Doc was as much the problem here as the student, but no one seems to want to acknowledge that. Doc could’ve worked for a compromise in this case, but he chose to take a hard-line stance. That’s cool that he stood up for what he believed in, but that doesn’t make it right. It certainly doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t have to live with the consequences of his decision not to compromise. This is why I don’t feel sorry for him. At the end of the day, the student didn’t even break a school rule, he broke Doc’s personal rule. The beloved Doc, on the other hand, disregarded school policy and refused to remedy the situation.

By Danielle

May 18, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this

James, why are you so firm on your belief that Doc should be fired? Don’t you think he could have had a reprimand or something else? No one else complained. The kids knew his rules and they adhered to them. This kids slept during a lab. A LAB! How does a student complete an assignment during a lab? Doesn’t a lab require active participation? Couldn’t the principal supported the teacher to the parents’ face and reprimanded the teacher in private? In high school I would think a parent would not go and get involved with the administration like that. That type of behavior is more elementary grade level behavior. What message do you think the student received from his parents?

By Robin

May 18, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this

Hey Shauna,

I think “James” is the kid’s father. I believe the kid is named Wesley Cheek.

By Stacy

May 18, 2005 03:57 PM | Link to this

This is the message that the Pacific Palisades High School (California)Staff voted unanimously to record on their school telephone answering machine. This came about because they implemented a policy requiring students and parents to be responsible for their children’s absences and missing homework. The school and teachers are being sued by parents who want their children’s failing grades changed to passing grades even though those children were absent 15-30 times during the semester and did not complete enough school work to pass their classes.

This is the actual answering machine message for the school:

“Hello! You have reached the automated answering service of your school. In order to assist you in connecting the right staff member, please listen to all your options before making a selection:

“To lie about why your child is absent - Press 1

“To make excuses for why your child did not do his work- Press 2

“To complain about what we do - Press 3

“To swear at staff members - Press 4

“To ask why you didn’t get information that was already enclosed in your newsletter and several flyers mailed to you - Press 5

“If you want us to raise your child - Press 6

“If you want to reach out and touch, slap, or hit someone - Press 7

“To request another teacher for the third time this year- Press 8

“To complain about bus transportation - Press 9

“To complain about school lunches - Press 0

“If you realize this is the real world and your child must be accountable and responsible for his/her own behavior, class work, homework, and that it’s not the teachers’ fault for your child’s lack of effort: Hang up and have a nice day!”

By Linda

May 18, 2005 03:59 PM | Link to this

Robin… I think you are right.

By James

May 18, 2005 04:18 PM | Link to this

Danielle - In order for Doc not to be fired, he would’ve first had to be willing to compromise. He wouldn’t do that. What is the board supposed to do? Doc was told to change the grade and he refused even though he knew his policy conflicted with the school’s. A reprimand for outright insubordination. In what world? The student slept through an entire lab and cheated to get a perfect score on the assignment; this is the assumption that many people have made. Did he sleep through the entire lab or only a portion? Was this a lecture in a lab environment? Do we know what the assignment entailed? I certainly do not. In my mind, whether he did or not is irrelevant because it was a take home assignment.

Now, if the principal stands with the teacher, he has taken a position that implies he is in support of breaking a rule he is supposed to uphold. What kind of sense would that make? His ship would’ve sunk right with Doc’s. The problem with the principal is that he was more reactive than proactive regarding Doc’s policy.

The parents have taken plenty of criticism for speaking up, but isn’t that what parents are supposed to do? You can’t say the parents don’t care about what’s going on with their child’s education or anything else negative. Doc’s policy was contrary to school policy and the parents called him and the school on it. Please tell me what is wrong with that and how that negatively affects the student. While I can’t tell you what the student learned in this situation, there isn’t anything to suggest that he would be negatively affected by his parents standing up and pointing out that an injustice had been done. An injustice that was supported by the school policy. My best guess is that the student learned how ignorant and presumptuous people can draw conclusions about others without knowledge of all the facts.

By Jennifer

May 18, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this

James,

You’re missing the point. There are many ways that kids are “disciplined” with grades each day. Here’s a sampling:

Shall I go on? Gwinnett’s reasoning is flawed, and if he sues the county, he will win if he has even a slightly decent lawyer.

Shoot, when I taught 7th grade, I had a parent drag me into a conference with the administrator and counselor because their child got a ‘B’ for the quarter. I explained that their child had simply not turned in several assignments, to which she got haughty & slapped a huge folder of all his work on my desk. Well, while the admin. talked to her to keep her calm, I flipped through the stack, found the missing work, and you know what? It wasn’t graded. Why? Because it wasn’t turned in. Should I have accepted it because it was done but never turned in? NO! That’s not my job. It was little Johnny’s job to take responsibility. I didn’t budge, and you know what? I technically disciplined with grades. I disciplined this child’s carelessness and absentmindedness with zeros. Tough. That’s exactly what he deserved.

By James

May 18, 2005 04:38 PM | Link to this

Jennifer - This kid turned in the assignment and got a perfect score. Doc cut his grade in half because he slept in class. One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other. In the case you describe, the student deserved zeroes, and you did the right thing standing firm. However, this instance is quite different from the one you describe. After all, your policy wasn’t in conflict with the school’s. In this case, Doc punished the student for learning and demonstrating his knowledge of the material the way that it was required by Doc himself.

By Stacy

May 18, 2005 04:41 PM | Link to this

James - the facts of the case that lead to the firing were those presented at the board hearing. Did you attend? If not, I suggest you have no grounds to criticize anyone regarding their knowledge of facts. And had you attended, you would have the answers to the questions you posed, as many of the people here posting do. Not to mention the comments from fellow classmates who witnessed the events & the student’s behavior firsthand. I’m not sure what your motivation is to keep defending the decision, but it does appear quite questionable. What motivates you to keep posting when in your mind, justice has been served? Be honest, what is your stake in this situation? Are you a board member? The student’s parent? A football player? Someone who simply supports the right of students to sleep during class? I call your bluff, my friend.

By Jennifer

May 18, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this

James,

No one is disputing that he got a perfect score. Technically, I believe his policy is similar to a participation grade. Sure, he may have ‘known’ the material (feel free to speculate as to how that info. flowed from his pen), but he didn’t participate fully. Now you may feel that Doc’s penalty for not participating, which is essentially a participation grade, was too harsh, but at least the expectation was spelled out clearly to the kids.

Everywhere I’ve worked or observed has had a participation grade, typically reflecting about 10-25% of the overall grade. Docking the point off of one assignment instead of the overall grade is probably a better assessment rubric anyways.

And I’m sorry, but I don’t care if the kid got a perfect score. It’s possible, not certain, that the kid cheated. Whether he did or didn’t is irrelevant. He failed to participate & therefore his grade was lowered.

It’s unethical for an administration to sign off on a syllabus & classroom policy for over a decade & then fire the teacher for following the guidelines he laid out. The principal is caught up in the idea that he can’t discipline with grades—that’s his point. However, as I pointed out, grades are used as discipline constantly in an academic setting. He can’t kill that policy without getting rid of all of the other scenarios as well.

By Linda

May 18, 2005 05:02 PM | Link to this

Jennifer: In the other BLOGS classmates have posted that he flat out cheated. It was a class assignment, and they were given 10 minutes the next morning to complete the assignment. Wesley was given the answers by friends. This is stated multiple times, in previous blogs. It seems that Dr. Neace should have collected the papers that day… instead of allowing a few minutes the next morning for completion. Wesley’s teacher, as well as his classmates were aware that he did not participate. He is called a “slacker” with a history of doing so…

GCSB: What a shame… to fire a teacher and punish ALL of his other students just prior to FINALS, over a “SLACKER” with spineless parents.

There will be a lot of people that will want to see Wesley perform badly for his senior year. This is unfair to the other football players, who may actually earn their grades.

By James

May 18, 2005 05:14 PM | Link to this

Stacy - I am a former football player that grew up in Atlanta (DeKalb County). As an athlete in high school, I experienced what it is like to have teachers do whatever they can to fail you or make you look bad. I also know how it feels to have classmates and people in the community make assumptions about your character and your family. When his attorney came out and said that this was just another case of a pampered athlete getting preferential treatment, it became clear as day to me that Doc had an ax to grind. What bigger insult to a teacher is there than a student ignoring his teaching while continuing to get A’s on all of his/her assignments. Doc was looking for a way to make this student do things the way he felt like they should be done. Unfortunately for Doc, you can’t arbitrarily punish a student for not doing things your way. The fact that all of these people are clamoring about this student sleeping in class is funny to me because everyone has done it. In the grand scheme of things, sleeping in class is a problem if you have a test, pop quiz, class assignment, or group assignment. Otherwise, it isn’t disruptive and it certainly doesn’t prevent you from learning a lesson that is in the book. With all of that being said, that is my angle.

By SY

May 19, 2005 08:28 AM | Link to this

Stacey,

You were right, James does have a reason for being to hard on Doc. It’s not a good reason, but at least it is a reason.

James, are you saying that you don’t believe any of the other students or teachers that call this particular student a slacker? Are all of these people out to get this kid? You cannot possibly believe that, can you?

By Danielle

May 19, 2005 08:34 AM | Link to this

I think whoever said James was the kid’s father is right (or at least a relative). I have asked at least three times why this student has not taken any responsibility for his own actions and have not received a reply. Yeah, a “rule” may have been broken, but have you heard the saying, “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it?” That system Doc had for 10 years worked fine with the students. ALL of the students knew his rule and adhered to them. They loved Doc. Now, they are not learning and a good, dedicated, Physics teacher is gone. I would like to know if this kid has been so perfect…that he has NEVER broken a rule in Gwinnett County public schools. If he has, then he needs to be expelled.

By Jennifer

May 19, 2005 08:45 AM | Link to this

James,

One other thing—when I taught, we had to send our syllabus home to the parents to be signed, and we also had to go over the syllabus (which includes policies like Doc’s) during the open house.

Assuming this school has the same policy (anyone know for sure?), if this parent had a problem with the rule, he should’ve spoken up at the time and NOT just to bail his child out. That the kid happens to be an athlete is irrelevant. It’s about taking responsibility, and it’s obvious that no one in this family is willing to do that.

By Karen Armsby

May 19, 2005 09:04 AM | Link to this

James, In reply to your post, it looks like you have some baggage and feel sympathy for this student. But, if you knew anything about Doc, you would know that he doesn’t have an ‘ax to grind’ against football players. His teaching approach is entirely professional and respectful, and his participation policy was applied equally for all students.

However, several people in this episode did have axes to grind. First, the slacker student who put his head down after the assignment sheet was handed to him did not have the maturity to approach his teacher to discuss his grade, but instead went crying to his daddy. Next with an ax to grind was his bully daddy who also didn’t have the maturity to contact the teacher to discuss it, but went whining to the principal to fix it. Next in line with an ax to grind was the principal who also didn’t have the maturity or professional conduct to go to his teacher to get the facts, discuss the problem, or attempt to find a solution. The ax was ground, the ambush was set, and the teacher was subjected to an insulting rant and cursing by the bully parent. Then in front of the parent, the principal got in his licks, too. Bottom line, the principal used the bully parent and his whining kid to get rid of an excellent teacher that he couldn’t bully himself.

Neither the student, his dad, or the principal ever gave a thought to the 140 physics students who lost their teacher at the end of the semester. If the GCPS adminstration and board cave into parent complaints so easily, I would like to see them face the parents of all of Doc’s students and explain this administrative folly.

By James

May 19, 2005 09:40 AM | Link to this

SY - What is your reason for being so hard on the student and his parents. Doc may be a great and dedicated teacher, but he is not some kind of innocent victim in this case.

Yes, I am saying that I don’t believe the other students and teachers because his past record would support their claims. He’s a slacker that is also called a very bright and intelligent kid. Not to mention, it was also said that he’s been an A/B student all through HS. I guess we should ignore those things and just focus on the fact that some people called him a slacker. People that may have their own reasons for doing so.

Danielle - Let me state for the record that I am not a parent, relative, friend, or acquaintance of this student. I am just a guy that follows the news in my hometown and took an interest in this story.

As far as the student issuing a reply, what for? The board spoke for him and all of the clamoring and finger pointing is a non-issue.

“Yeah, a ‘rule’ may have been broken, but have you heard the saying, ‘if it ain’t broke don’t fix it?’ That system Doc had for 10 years worked fine with the students.”
Let me get this right. Doc’s ‘rule’, which breaks an overarching rule, should be upheld because he held the rule for 10 years and no one ever complained. If this is true, why adhere to any rules? Why can’t the student argue that he sleeps when he feels like it and that’s been his rule since kindergarten. That argument doesn’t hold water because neither Doc nor the student are in the proper position to set such rules. There’s nothing wrong with challenging a policy and working to change it, but he AND THE PRINCIPAL failed to adhere to the school policy.

In my mind, I don’t think Doc should’ve been fired for this incident, but he wouldn’t compromise so he has to live with the consequences of standing up for what he believed in. The student on the other hand should have been disciplined, but not with the slashing of his grade. The fact that the student was an athlete was a non-issue in this case until Doc made it an issue. For this reason, the underlying conflict of this story became academics vs athletics. This type of conflict gets people, including myself, riled up for obvious reasons. Doc used this conflict to pit people against one another. He vs the student and school board, the academic community vs the athletic community, parents vs parents, students vs students, me vs danielle, etc. Not once has he tried to bring a solution to the problem, he has simply compounded it and divided the community. No one is innocent in the case, especially the beloved ‘Doc’!

I’m not against academics, in fact, I am an academic myself in my spare time. At the same time, I have been an athlete and around athletics all of my life.

How much of a slacker can he be if he is indeed an A/B student? Also, I wouldn’t doubt it if some people disliked the kid and wanted to speak out against him.

By James

May 19, 2005 09:52 AM | Link to this

Karen Armsby - So are you saying that if your child was treated unjustly that you wouldn’t stand up for him or her?

By Karen Armsby

May 19, 2005 10:00 AM | Link to this

James, Yes, I would stand up for my children and have done so. I met with the teacher and we had a mutually respectful discussion, and solved the problem. No principal needed, no abusive language or cursing, no ax to grind on either side. We demonstrated our maturity, not our egos.

By Jennifer

May 19, 2005 10:03 AM | Link to this

James—

Now I understand why you’re so steadfast in your position: “So are you saying that if your child was treated unjustly that you wouldn’t stand up for him or her?” You honestly feel that this child was treated unjustly.

I would fight tooth & nail if my children were truly being treated unjustly. However, this child was not. If my child EVER came home and said, ‘I fell asleep & school, & my teacher cut my grade on the assignment in half.” My answer would be “That’s what happens when you sleep in class. If it happens again, expect conseqeuences at home as well.”

It’s about taking responsibility for your actions, and I’m sorry, but it’s very difficult to receive a perfect score on a lab without being awake for the bulk of the class time to work on it unless you have a helpful friend. And I knew many A/B slackers who coasted by… all you need to do is learn the tricks of the system, turn in your assignments, and give a cursory glance over the material before the tests, and you can be an A/B student in today’s school environment (it was true 10-15 years ago as well!).

By James

May 19, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this

Ms. Armsby - I think it’s great that yours went amicably, but this may not have been able to be solved by just sitting down with Doc. If he wouldn’t reason with his boss and the school board, what makes you think that he would reason with a parent? The situation was different from yours and I just don’t think it’s fair to make the student and his parents out to be these awful people because they did the same thing that Doc did. They simply stood up for what they believed in. Please tell me what’s wrong with that!

By Karen Armsby

May 19, 2005 10:13 AM | Link to this

James, I had kids at Dacula HS over a continuous eight year period, the last one graduated last year. As I stated before I don’t think the fact that the student was a football player had anything to do with Doc’s application of his grading policy. However, I do agree with all of the posters about the AD’s elitism and football arrogance and the influence he exerts at the school and over the principal. My kids were athletes, too, but not football, and they experienced a less than cordial attitude and unkind words from the football coach.

By SY

May 19, 2005 10:17 AM | Link to this

James,

Have you taken into account that he may be an A/B student because of the fact that he is an athlete? Maybe he did cheat on this assignment. Maybe he cheats all the time and doesn’t get caught. I don’t know. All I know is that Physics is a very hard subject, I didn’t even opt to take it in school because I was scared. If you want kids to learn, you have to give them great, not good, teachers.

And, with the way schools have been down sliding with the overall test scores, I think that more and more parents are thrilled when they run across a teacher that truly cares for their students. Most parents, obviously, didn’t have a problem with the rule. Was the rule wrong, yes - under school policy. Should the rule have been wrong, - no by EVERY other students and their parents.

When I was in school the participation grade was essential. I guess under your thinking, it is okay not to participate. But, I bet this kid is willing to participate with whatever sport he plays at the drop of a hat.

For the record James, I understand your point on athletes. I was a very popular black cheerleader in a mostly white school and I had to overcome the same problems that you are talking about, plus many, many more. But the bottom line is that my mother (single) told me that if I didn’t make the grade, I didn’t cheer. My mother was the voice of reason. My mother didn’t take excuses either. This boys father is not helping him at all. His parents are being reasonable.

By Karen Armsby

May 19, 2005 10:33 AM | Link to this

James, Were you at the hearing? The testimony was that the principal talked to the parent on the phone and met with the parent before the parent-teacher meeting. However, the principal failed to get the facts and to discuss it with the teacher first. The principal allowed the parent to rant and curse at the teacher for 15 minutes, then corrected the teacher in front of the parent. The teacher was not allowed to discuss or reason anything.

James, assuming that you work for a company, what would you do if your supervisor called you into his office to face some irate complainer who ranted and cursed at you for 15 minutes, and then your boss, in front of the complainer, ordered you to correct the matter right then and there without talking it over? Wouldn’t you feel intimidated? Or as Doc testified at the hearing, after the parent and principal had their say he ‘felt like a whipped dog backed into a corner.’

I don’t see how you can think that there was any reasonable or professional behavior demonstrated by the principal or the parent in the meeting. And then when the principal passed his paperwork onto the county office, the testimony was that they didn’t conduct their own investigation into the facts, and they told the teacher that he had two options, resign or be terminated. In my opinion, the whole line of the GCPS administration mishandled this situation, and then board rubber stamped it.

By James

May 19, 2005 10:34 AM | Link to this

Jennifer - I believe that the rule was unjust. There are so many other ways to discipline class behavior, and the student should’ve been punished along those lines. Doc isn’t above the school policy and you can’t act like he was simply because you agree with his stance.

If the assignment would have been taken up after the class, then the work would’ve spoken for itself and the grade is therefore earned. This student could’ve done the work at home or had a friend help him with the work. In either case, the work that was required was done. All the conjecture about how and why it got done is irrelevant. The grade for the work is totally unrelated to the student sleeping in class. Doc could’ve given him detention, called his parents to discuss the situation, reported him to the principal, etc. He didn’t do any of that because he didn’t feel like he needed to. That’s fine. Nevertheless, he broke a rule and should have to take responsibility for his actions also.

By Karen Armsby

May 19, 2005 11:44 AM | Link to this

James, You just validated Doc”s grading policy when you said “if the assignment would have been taken up after the class, then the work would’ve spoken for itself and the grade is earned.” Well, Doc did grade the student for the time in class when he was required to work on the assignment. Had the papers been collected the first day he would have received a zero. However, Doc only took half off becuase he gave the students time in the next class period to complete the work. This was an in class assignment, not homework. The student chose not to participate during class and so he earned a zero for his lack of work. See how words can be interpreted? Instead of an ‘S’ for sleeping Doc should have just entered a zero, and we wouldn’t be here today.

By James

May 19, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

Ms. Armsby - So now you’re telling me that turning in an assignment that was handed out in class at the end of the class period is the same as turning it in on the next day. Be serious Ms. Armsby!

Since you didn’t hear me the first time, I’ll say it again. NO ONE IS INNOCENT IN THIS CASE! I am just of the opinion that many people are very quick to judge the student and his parents while absolving Doc of any degree of wrongdoing.

SY - Have you taken into account that he may be an A/B student because of the fact that he is an athlete? Maybe he did cheat on this assignment. Maybe he cheats all the time and doesn’t get caught. I don’t know.

Yes I have taken these things into account. If he’s an A/B student because he’s an athlete, then he’s not the problem, the school itself is the problem. I personally don’t think that the majority of teachers at DHS are in cahoots with the football program. I would say that it’s possible, but not very likely. However, he actually may be an A/B student on his own merit. The problem is that everyone is so quick to believe that he had to cheat and that he has a history of cheating. The fact is we really don’t know about any of that stuff.

By dubya

May 19, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this

To James: With 23 years and satisfactory evaluations and not a thing in his file of reprimands, you cannot legally terminate someone. You really need anger management.

By dubya

May 19, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this

James: One more thing - if this is your “hometown” you sure don’t keep up

By James

May 19, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this

dubya - What are you talking about? Also, what makes you question whether or not Atlanta is my hometown?

By danielle

May 19, 2005 05:20 PM | Link to this

Name calling and finger pointing or getting personal isn’t going to solve anything. Doc was fired because he was proving a point. The principal should have got Doc’s side of the story withOUT the parents there, stopped the parent from cursing, and “defended” the teacher in front of the parent. Principal Nutt should have then given Doc a consequence in private since the student had already been removed from his room. You know, there are so many students who are losing out on his talents. They have a long term sub now who knows nothing about physics. I say put the principal or a school board member in there to teach physics. See how well he does!

By Dacula - Focused on Cheating

May 20, 2005 11:48 AM | Link to this

“Have you taken into account that he may be an A/B student because of the fact that he is an athlete? Maybe he did cheat on this assignment. Maybe he cheats all the time and doesn’t get caught.”

Possible, since Dacula is full of cheating football players because certain school officials encourage and even help them do it.

By former parent

May 20, 2005 01:04 PM | Link to this

James - I think maybe they are questioning what planet you live on. Sorry, Barry, I mean James

By Danielle

May 20, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this

I once read that this case was going to open a whole can of worms. Whoever said that was right. You know, we can admit that Doc neace could have been wrong, but he should not have been fired. The principal was wrong to have taken the situation this far. As community members we look the principal as a leader and educator, which Nutt was not in this case. He caved to the whines and cries of the parents and coaches. In a way, I feel sorry for the kid, because he was simply doing what he knows he can do and get away with. I mainly feel sorry for Doc, because obviously he loved his job and the kids respected him. I really hate to see so many kids lose out on a good, caring,dedicated teacher for such a lousy excuse. There are so many teachers who could have learned from him to be a good teacher. Like I said, I work with special ed. kids. I know the regular ed. teachers have a lot to deal with. I think the behavior of the parents is what is mostly seen in elementary school, not high school. You know, at our local school, ISS doesn’t mean anything. You see the same kids in ISS. It’s not a serious consequence. In Doc’s case, grades are consequence for the kids, so the kid sleeping should have been used. I still say that one of the school board members needs to come into a classroom for ONE day and see how they handle it. Let Prin. Nutt sub in Doc’s room and teach Physics. How would they do? How about “Wesley”? Is he still the perfect student?

By Karen Armsby

May 20, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

I would like to encourage all of Doc’s students, from this year or the past 23 years, to write a letter of support and a request to reinstate Doc. Send the letter to the Gwinnett County Schools Superintendent, J. Alvin Wilbanks, and to each of the School Board members. A personal letter goes farther than all of our blogging, letters to the newspapers, and media interviews. Share your personal experience in Doc’s classes, and tell them how he influenced you. The influence of a good teacher lasts a lifetime.

By Danielle

May 20, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this

Karen has a great idea!! I hope that “they” take the time to read the letters….or at least acknowledge them.

By Linda

May 24, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this

I agree with Karen. That is a great idea. As for your question about “Wesley”… in another BLOG it has been reported that he was observed “sleeping in his new physics class.” The new teacher started yelling loud enough to wake him up!

It has also been stated that he is NOT a good student. He used to be a good student in his early days. His priorities changed…

By Danielle

May 24, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this

With the policies the Board wants to live by, it doesn’t matter about the behavior of the student, what matters is the fear of a law suit. And his parents scared everyone enough along with his position on the football team to get to where we are. I would like to know how things are for him at the school and if he follows every rule in Gwinnett County. The rules need to go both ways. He wears all appropriate clothing, never leaves or enters class early/late, never cheats, copies or commits plagerism, and follows ALL the rules set forth in the handbook given to every student at the beginning of the year.

By Karen Armsby

May 25, 2005 11:32 AM | Link to this

On Monday, attorneys for GCPS called Doc Neace’s Motion to Reconsider his termination FRIVOLOUS and asked that it be dropped because Georgia law does not permit the school board to renege on the decision.

Frivoulous Motion? A teacher’s career is at stake and they think this is a frivolous request? The arrogance is overwhelming! GCPS management and attorneys have dug in their heels to maintain their ‘who’s the boss’ posture. They continue to refuse to engage in a meaningful dialogue that could bring a positive outcome for the school system, for Dacula High School students, and for Doc Neace, before this embarrassing incident goes to the State Board on appeal.

The Board was asked to reconsider, not ‘renege on its decison.’ Reasonable minds could conclude that the Board’s decision was a rush to judgement after the 8 hour hearing ended after midnight, that they were exhausted, and therefore did not conduct a careful review of the conflicting testimony. The Board had five days to consider the firing, but took only an hour to approve the termination. Had they made up their minds before the hearing? Is the School Board an independent decison making body or just the GCPS rubber stamp on decisions? Doc Neace is just the latest great teacher to be driven off from Dacula High School by Principal Nutt. Is anyone at GCPS listening?

By danielle

May 25, 2005 03:57 PM | Link to this

This is when Karen’s idea of his past students writing in to the state about how he teaches. He is valued and talented in the classroom as well and dedicated to the students needs. Let the students, the ones who spent time with Doc, share their experiences with him. The board members never spent a day with Doc Neace. They don’t care that his talents are gone. They only care about their egos and the power they have. By reneging, they would admit they were “wrong”, but are not willing to do that. Isn’t it strange that the people who make the decisions are the ones who don’t live with what they decide!!! These board members don’t have any loved ones missing out on Doc’s teaching so they don’t care that he isn’t there. The board members aren’t the ones in trailors, unair conditioned rooms, overcrowded cafetrerias, ISS rooms, classes, offices, or anything. They sit and make decisions, but don’t have to personally live with what they decide.

By Karen Armsby

May 26, 2005 10:36 AM | Link to this

I received an interesting e-mail from a Gwinnett County teacher, and his analysis sheds some light on what he thinks is influencing Doc’s firing as well as the rest of Gwinnett County Schools, here’s a part of his comments:

“The reasons why teachers such as “Doc” and Mr. Hope (Gateway testing scandal)must be silenced, if not destroyed, are related to the attempts by the current school leadership to re-structure the schools according to a locally modified, Deming-style ‘Total Quality Management’ model, which business leaders (but not experienced educators) support due to it’s shift away from a traditional academic and liberal arts tradition of ‘educating kids for life’ to a system which emphasizes vocationalism, technical studies, careerism, and manual labor so as to feed a steady stream of future workers toward industry. Such a result would, of course, hold down wages & salaries and also save business billions since public schools will have taken over the job of training workers.”

“While the above statement is simplistic sounding (it’s far more complex in goals and objectives) I know… Nevertheless, it is resulting in a mass dumbing-down of learning due to an over-emphasis on standardized testing, teaching-to-the-test pressures, drill & kill lessons, and other dubious ‘cookbook’ prescriptions which are, in my professional opinion, inherently anti-intellectual; weakening children’s ability to understand and critically think, and the like.”

“Former Gov. Roy Barnes also supported this “reforming” of public schools, and like GCPS senior leadership, realized early-on that veteran teachers were the ones most likely to sound the alarm and resist it. Thus Gov. Barnes proposed to the state legislature that teacher tenure be revoked. The message to frontline educators - and the symbolism - were clear.”

“I am frustrated and angry with our leadership. Most colleagues in the secondary-school ranks feel the same. The prevailing atmosphere of fear and intimidation keeps most from expressing their views due to the ruthless and punitive nature of leadership’s response.”

“Parents MUST help lead the movement for substantive reform before we have a ‘World Class’ school system turning out passive and obedient non-thinkers… which is what I increasingly see and may even be able to prove.”

It’s Scary to think about the generation of non thinking robots the schools may be turning out. Any comments?