Get Schooled

By Jake

May 12, 2005 03:16 PM | Link to this

Although SAT and ACT scores are not necessarily perfect at predicting college ‘success’, I can think of at least two cases where they are quite useful as admission criteria. First for the very elite schools, for example, an M.I.T. should give preference to an 800 math score over a 750. Second, and closer to home, it’s one way to determine which Hope scholars get into Tech or UGA, and which have to settle for Kennesaw State. Although test scores are not a perfect measurement, those with better scores should get into the better schools. Look at it the other way. If they start admitting students with 400 SAT scores into Harvard, it wouldn’t be prestigious for very long.

By Manny T

May 12, 2005 03:26 PM | Link to this

Optional SATs can be a good thing if it focuses the students to take their regular school work more seriously. The value in the SAT/ACT is the ease in comparing students from different schools.

For those admission offices that are willing to go the extra mile and understand more about the grading practices of a school/district/state, they can select a very good class of freshman without SAT/ACT. Good admissions can be done without these tests.

By David

May 12, 2005 04:56 PM | Link to this

Sorry guys, I disagree. Teachers are under fire about student’s grades. An “A” in certain schools means more than an “A” in other schools. Remember, Zell Miller did away with “The Degree to Nowhere,” but he didn’t do away with those students. The low level student just got shuffled into the “general” classes and disrupted them. The general students just migrated to the college prep classes, forcing those classes to be watered down. Now, we teachers say we have two types of CP students: real CP students and “My Moma says I’m CP” students. The only way the universities can tell the difference between a student with an “A/B” in physics that really knows physics from the “A/B” physics student that sleeps in class (I wonder who that would be) is by their scores on the SAT.

And yes, I know there are kids that don’t really test well on standardized tests. I’ve been teaching for 12 years. I ran across one of them 6 years ago - one. The rest didn’t test well simply because they didn’t know the material that well. The reason the schools use the SAT is because it does a pretty good job of actually predicting the student’s first year’s success or failure. The SAT accurately assesses the value of the “A” little Wesley was awarded in physics.

By Dan

May 13, 2005 08:16 AM | Link to this

There is no way a college administration can do a good job without the SAT or something like it. Manny says they should go the extra mile and do there homework regarding the grading practices of a school. Impossible first becaus it you wouldn’t have the time or resources to even scratch the surface second such a plan would integrate far more bias than any test. Now I don’t think a school should have an rock solid bottom line score for admission, because there are some rare instances where a student with a substandard SAT may become a start college student but they are the exception

By Shauna

May 13, 2005 08:31 AM | Link to this

David,

I have to wonder if you are telling the truth about the kids that you have taught. I find it hard to believe that you have only run across one student that didn’t test well. All through high school, my teachers told me that I just didn’t understand the material and I did. I just didn’t understand the questions on the test. Once some of them let me do an essay type test, my grades went from “B”s and “C”s to all “A”s in those specific courses. I don’t think that all teachers take the time to find out for sure. All it takes is to give some students one or two tests in a different format to decide if they test different from others. I thanks those 2 or 3 teachers that took the time with me. I don’t thank the rest that told me to my face that I was just lazy and didn’t want to do the work. I got lucky, most kids don’t because of teachers who don’t believe them or don’t listen to them. Please David, take the time to find out for sure. Yes, it might be a little more work for you, but didn’t you start teaching to help? BTW, I didn’t do to well on the SAT either. I made a 1420. I was very disappointed in myself but I didn’t take it again because I started to believe the other teachers. I started thinking, maybe I am lazy. Maybe I didn’t try hard enough. I am now 31 years old and it has taken me until now to realize that I am not lazy and that I did do the best that I could at the time.

Back to the topic (sorry guys), I believe that colleges should try not using SAT/ACT scores for a one or two years and see what kind of students they attract. You never know, some kids don’t try to get into college because they are afraid to take the SAT/ACT tests. They feel like that is the only thing that colleges care about. Its worth a shot and you may find that more kids apply to college and at least try to get a good education.

By Don

May 13, 2005 08:57 AM | Link to this

You have to ask yourself, what was the academic criteria beside social status to get into a university before standardized testing. It may have been nothing other than the individual to pay and do the required course work. Can anyone confirm this? Are the SAT’s a true measurement to determine success at the college level? I heard recently someone say that there ought to be a common sense approach to college admission. College level cousework will weed out those who belong and those who do not. I just viewed that list of schools and to my surprise there were some very good schools there. As far as the elite those have always been reserved for those that are academically elite. Demand for entry into a specific university and high SAT scores does not necessarily make for a elite school.

By mike

May 13, 2005 10:04 AM | Link to this

All colleges are extreme liberal-socialist institutions that discriminate against anyone who has a conservative point of view! It is not surprising that they would use socio-economics, race, gender,etc. to admit students! The ACT and SAT are good indicators of the ability to succeed in a competitive college atmosphere! Colleges should be about promoting educational success, not social engineering!

By Parent

May 13, 2005 10:39 AM | Link to this

As the parent of an A/B student who just took the SAT, ACT and GHSGT, I am happy that these schools are at least beginning to take a closer look at the true indicators of this test.
On the SAT and ACT, he scored middle of the pack. On the GHSGT, he scored Pass Plus with Distinction. This year’s AP courses have been the most difficult for him, simply because he has been challenged more this year than before. He was placed in AP courses to better prepare him for college. This fall, he will be joint-enrolled at Ga perimeter to further prepare him.
Initially, I was very concerned over the SAT and ACT scores. (I have never been a fan of standardized tests). But, after considering his grades and the GHSGT I am very satisfied that he will get into one of the many great schools that have been recruiting him from an academic standpoint - including Emory, Morehouse, UGA, GT, Penn, UF, etc. Standardized tests are not an exact science - just useful. However, for students who do not test well on them and have shown the ability to do the work, they should not be penalized.

By David

May 13, 2005 10:46 AM | Link to this

Shauna, We’re talking about different things. An SAT score of 1420 would make you my county’s STAR student and probably our valedictorian. Until this year, 1600 was the top score. You are classified as 2 standard deviations above the mean!! You are in the top 2.5% of all students going to college. I would not say you test badly. If you received grades of “Bâ€? and “Câ€? with an SAT score of 1420, I’d say your teacher-designed tests were invalid and the SAT was extremely valid. That’s always a risk, and I worry about it every time I design a test. I even go as far as to offer copies of old tests to get the students to prepare. I had one of your type of students too, and I’m ashamed to say I didn’t recognize her. She did extremely well on an extremely tough essay test that I gave her when she did extremely poorly on my previous multiple choice tests. I was appalled at my ignorance. Thank goodness I didn’t have a lasting effect on her. She graduated with a degree in psychology from a fine university. Since then I offer essay tests as an option. No one has duplicated her work since, either. They do poorly on both. That’s one in 12 years for that type too, but I still offer – I just don’t have any takers. Am I pessimistic? I’d say I’m more of a realist.

In my post I’m discussing students who say they’re really “A” students who “don’t test wellâ€? when the receive SAT scores of 820 and are classified as below average. I’ve had one who actually fit that description in 12 years. That’s a true statement. When these “A-type” students go off to college, they usually come back 2 semesters later, after flunking out, and say, “Well, college just wasn’t for me,” like it’s the next level of social advancement. As far as taking the time to check, that’s half of what I do. My job is to teach and then evaluate the student’s learning. I take my job seriously. The one student with high ability who didn’t test well was a former salutatorian who scored extremely high on my objective tests and did poorly on the SAT objective tests. Problems requiring a three-step resolution caused her no problems; she simply could not get over 1000 on the SAT no matter how many times she took it. I wrote her a glowing recommendation; she graduated from UGA. I stand by my statement. When I get 10% of my students who fit that profile, I’ll concede the point, but not before.

By Jake

May 13, 2005 11:03 AM | Link to this

Don - Do you think George Bush made it into Yale based on his SAT score? Perhaps it was their extreme liberal-socialist leanings? College success probably results from a combination of intellect and drive. SAT scores are somewhat indicative of both, some ability and at least enough drive to sit through one or two of those SAT prep courses. I agree with Mike that this is at least a fairer criteria than affirmative action under the guise of a diversity program. What I find amazing is people like Shauna that have so thoroughly bought into ‘Janie just doesn’t test well’ and ‘Johnny has ADD’. Janie’s probably not that bright, despite what her mother thinks, and Johnny could probably just use a little more discipline to keep him focused. If our teachers and schools continue to foster the victim mentality, it will become reality.

By Don

May 13, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this

To Ms Ghezzi you have led readers of this topic to believe something different than Holy Cross has cited for their reason of making SAT and ACT scores optional. Holy cross stated,: “Why did Holy Cross make the submission of standardized testing optional?”

A: The role of standardized testing in the Holy Cross admissions process has been discussed and debated over the past several years. We have always placed far greater weight on the academic experience of a candidate as demonstrated through the high school transcript than on a single test or combination of tests. Our experience shows that the rigor of a student’s program and overall academic performance can best illustrate commitment, motivation, and willingness to take on challenges. Our existing process credits students who have achieved at a very high level in the classroom, with far less importance placed on testing. Therefore, our decision to make standardized testing optional is consistent with the philosophy and policies of the College. We hope that this change will help both students and parents reassess the importance of testing, while at the same time redirecting attention back to what really matters: day-to-day performance in the classroom.

This is a real poor job of objective journalism. The answer to the question regarding race and socioeconomic status appears further below in the Q&A. Q: What advantages does Holy Cross expect to receive from this decision?

**A: We believe this decision has several advantages. We have been concerned about the inherent racial and socioeconomic bias in standardized testing, and believe that this move serves to address this issue. Additionally, the test-optional policy communicates to students, teachers, and parents how Holy Cross focuses on the four-year academic program as well as outside-the-classroom interests in admissions decisions – instead of on a single number or score. Finally, we believe it helps de-emphasize the attention, expense, and stress surrounding test scores and test preparation.

By Patti Ghezzi

May 13, 2005 11:37 AM | Link to this

Don, please call me Patti. Thanks for the comments. To me, the first response reads like a preface and does not address the specific problems with the SAT and ACT.

My intent was to give readers a taste of the issue in the post with a link for those who want more info.

Patti

By David

May 13, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this

Sorry I’m off topic, but I couldn’t let the comment go by:

Jake, Teachers don’t foster the victim mentality. We’re on the front lines. We see what’s going on. On the other hand our x-football coach administrators, and government bureaucrats don’t. Every semester I must go through each of my assigned students with these “disabilities” and note what “adjustments” I’m going to make so these students will be successful. It’s hard to keep a straight face when I have to write down, “I will have the student sit at the front of the class near me to keep his attention focused” for 20 of my 25 students when I have only 4 seats close to me. No administrator has ever addressed it. Putting 20 students with “difficulties” in a classroom is acceptable to an administrator.

And since you mentioned ADD, did you know ADD is the only “disease” that stops at the border to the south and the ocean? Japan and India do not have the problem. Hummm… maybe it isn’t a disease and is a condition brought on by lack of interest. If ADD does occur, how can these kids sit for hours in front of a Gameboy? How are they able to drive their cars? Sounds fishy to me.

Teachers aren’t the problem, nor are they the solution. I’m not a miracle worker. All I can do is lead the kid to learn, but I can’t make them think.

Sorry again, guys, but Jake hit my hot button.

By JR

May 13, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this

Who cares about the SAT/ ACT! The test is whether or not the student stays in college and gets the credits to graduate! The test scores are not as good a predicter of student success as once believed… hence the name change from Scholastic Aptitude Test to Scholastic Achievement Test. It tells what the student knows now, not what s/he will know in the future.

Even GA colleges use a weighted system to include the SAT, but it is not the only criteria for getting into college. It may be a good indicator for who needs remedial courses though.

I think anyone who wants to go to college and has the money should be able to go… just not on my tax dollar and they will have to EARN the grade. If they fail out then it may not have been for them!

By Dan

May 13, 2005 01:13 PM | Link to this

I love the people who say so and so was an A student and did poorly on the SAT well here is a tip Anyone (with extremely rare exceptions) who is truly and A student will certainly score over 1000 on the SAT probably more like 1200. If they don’t it is their grades that were bogus not the test. And you are not getting into emory with an 800 unless your field of study is art or music or something far removed from the topics on that test. (or you could be a minority)

By Shauna

May 13, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this

David,

I was not attacking you as a teacher, I hope you didn’t take it that way. I just know that I was counted out before we realized that I think a little differently. Please accept my sincere apology if that is the way you took it. And you have a good point about other countries not having ADD problems. It seems like I was just like that 1 student that you had. I’m glad to hear that she is doing well. Teachers like you help students to believe in themselves again. And I think that has a lot to do with how well they do in school.

Jake,

I was only speaking on personal experiences. I don’t believe every student has this problem. I truly believe that a lot of students and parents for that matter are just lazy and don’t want to do the work. All I was saying is that sometimes you run into a kid that has the potential and the drive and just need a little more help. I don’t think that is asking for too much.

BTW, I now realize that a 1420 is a good score on the OLD SAT test. But for me at the time, I thought that it was terrible because I wanted to make a 1600. Part of my problem was that I tried to hard at everything. I thought that everyone wanted me to be perfect and that meant getting a perfect score. I have since learned to be proud of my 1420.

By David

May 13, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this

Shauna, No I wasn’t insulted, and you don’t owe me an apology. I’m still livng down that student who had to tell me 4 times she did better on essay tests before I accepted her challenge. You’re a special kind of student; there are darned few of you and unfortunately we have to address the great majority rather than the extremely small minority. In any event, your score of 1420 blew mine out of the water and I had a GPA of 3.95. Apparently your “B” and “C” grades in high school didn’t hold your success back for long. Have you considered teaching? It’s the best job you’ll ever hate.

By Shauna

May 13, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this

David,

Yes I have and I am having a hard time getting started. I live in Gwinnett but I don’t mind teaching in another county. I have my accounting degree (4 year) and I would LOVE to try (I use that word loosely) to teach and help another person like myself. If you would like to help walk me through it let me know and I’ll send you my contact information. I am also ex-military so I think that I can do the Troops to Teachers program. Any help you could give would be appreciated. And trust me, I understand that the masses are going to get more attention and the small minority will be overlooked. But sometimes that one isn’t and you proved that. Good job.

By David

May 13, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this

Shauna, check out teachgeorgia.org

There are 12 business teaching positions available right now.

After hearing about how the physics teacher and the Gateway test teacher were treated, I would be hard pressed to advise anyone into going into teaching in Gwinnett county though. Check out the site. There are links to TAPPS and TTT too. Just suck up your guts and give it a whirl. If you like kids and can make it through the first year, you’ll be fine. We tend to “test to distruction” with rookie teachers so you’ve got to be tough-minded. The money sucks, but anyone getting into education for the money is worth what they make.

By Shauna

May 13, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this

David,

Thanks, if I need any more information, I’ll let you know.

By KMA

May 13, 2005 04:18 PM | Link to this

Dan,

If they don’t it is their grades that were bogus not the test. And you are not getting into emory with an 800 unless your field of study is art or music or something far removed from the topics on that test. (or you could be a minority)

Do not tell me. You did not get in the school of your choice..because some minority TOOK your PLACE.

You can not be serious. Do you really think a ‘minority’ with an 800 score would apply to a school like Emory, Harvard, Georgia Tech? There is a misconception that RACE is a MAJOR factor in admissions. I mean so many are in jail, or drop out of high school.Right? GA Tech is very diverse and race is not a factor in the admissions process.

What about all the ‘CAPS’ at Universities at Cal Tech and Berkeley? You know CAP that will only ALLOW a certain number of Asians and Eastern Indians.

And you think JFK, Jr got in the Ivy League with a ‘high’ SAT score, what about the daughter of the President..and so on. I digress. What about legacy? Gender?

I think the SAT should be A FACTOR, not THE FACTOR. And I am appalled that this so-called racial and socio-economic bias/barrier exists. Reading is fundamental and math is a skill. It all goes back to home.

STOP blaming TEACHERS. Education begins in the home. Your child should be able to read before they enter the first grade.

Tell me something Will a person that has a high driving score will be a better driver? Will a doctor that makes the high score on the State Board be a better doctor?

BTW, a 1420 is high today. I scored a 1300 in 1990 and still became a Chemical Engineer.

David if we could clone you and PAY you what you were actually worth. We would not be having this debate.

KMA

By suthrn_stranger

May 13, 2005 05:48 PM | Link to this

Shauna, a 1420 on a SAT is great score. David, I don’t know if I can agree with you entirely. From your view you may have considered me one of those “My momma says I’m a CP” student. I graduated from high school in the top 15% of my class (a class of +350). I was in a Talented and Gifted program from 2nd to 6th grade where I made the decision to no longer attend. I didn’t try very hard in high school. I wasn’t challenged I regret not taking AP classes now but at the time I could of cared less. I take the SAT twice and the ACT once. I scored a 1020 and a 23 respectively. I graduated from UGA with a “B” average after getting off to a rough start and realizing that I actually had to put forth some mental effort as opposed to what I did in high school. I understand you make you comments off of 12 years experience and that you saw one exception however if you’ve witnessed one you must be able to logically conceive that there are many more.

By Tim

May 16, 2005 09:11 AM | Link to this

I think this is aimed more at allowing everyone the right to a college education than it is at trying to get weak students into prestigious universities. Ivy league schools will still have rigid standards. This just allows those students that haven’t “trained” for the SAT since birth the opportunity to go to a decent school(not neccesarily Ivy League).

By Romona

May 16, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this

Dan,

I don’t know where you get your information, but just because someone’s field of study may be in the art or music field does not mean they can just sail in there with an SAT score of 800 just because there are no art or music -related questions on the SAT. I received my Bachelor’s degree in Music Education, and trust me, they DO look at standardized test scores. They have their standards, and it is MUCH higher than an 800. And as far as being a minority is concerned, what does THAT have to do with a score of 800????? Just how ignorant are you???? It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. To the rest of you, you all bring up some excellent points. I’ve enjoyed reading your comments.