Get Schooled

By LISA

April 19, 2005 12:10 PM | Link to this

It’s awful to even think about your child being of promotion based on a test!!! We know that the school system don’t even teach whats on the test!!! that why the private sector don’t even get invovle with that CRCT MESS!!! IT’S ONLY THE PUBLIC SCHOOL THAT NEED DATA ON HOW MANY MORE FRANCHISE WHICH IS CALL PRISON THEY NEED TO BUILD!!!!

By JR

April 19, 2005 01:51 PM | Link to this

The CRCT is a way of making sure the class that is going up to the next grade has a “minimium” set of academic skills. People complained that the students getting out of high school couldn’t read or do simple math… well I guess you reap what you sow.

Now you have a guarantee that they can do “minimum” amounts of academics… The bar was indeed set low. Student’s only need around 40% to meet the criterion and around 60% to exceed. That said, no one test should absolutely include or exclude students from moving on. So teachers/ admin can recommend promotion for those few that might be having a really bad day or simply don’t test well. This could very well be the bottom 15% of the school population since not everyone learns the same thing at the same rate!

Teachers have lost their power to grade meaningfully as the CRCT is now the ever increasing gate for promotion to the next grade and not so much what the teachers say a student is doing in his/her classroom. I guess grading on effort rather than on class product has cost.

Also the CRCT, born out of NCLB, is a way for the federal govenrment to standardize the currciulum nationally. I think the goal was to put America back into competition with the rest of the world and ensuring the society had certain standards in education.

By Swan

April 19, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this

Frankly, the total obsession our country now seems to have with standardized tests makes my head hurt, too!

A friend of mine once taught at a Cobb elementary school and I remember when they actually had a CRCT “pep rally” to generate excitement in the school for the test. At the time, I was rather confused by it. A pep rally for a standardized test? That’s how big of a deal it was.

No, I don’t think these tests truly reflect a student’s ability. Some children just don’t do well with standardized tests (and many adults) and this just makes it worse. It does nothing to evaluate good oral communication skills, either.

By Shauna

April 19, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this

Does the CRCT give exceptions for students who have been tested for test anxiety? Test anxiety really does exist. I know because I was diagnosed with it in college. Luckily for me, this test wasn’t around when I was in school.

By Gene Walker

April 19, 2005 03:29 PM | Link to this

I think Lisa flunked the 3rd Grade CRCT.

By Shauna

April 19, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this

Gene,

I just think that Lisa is excited about how she feels. We aren’t picky on this site.

By Matt

April 19, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure what to make of all these tests. I know we need to measure student abililty and teacher accountability, but are we marketing this the right way. These “measures” should be an indicator for decisions to be made about a child’s education and not just a “test”.

I wonder, with the media coverage and the way this is being portrayed to our youth, will the suicide rate among in-school youth go up due to the way we (society) have responded to the mandated testing requirements (CRCT, End of Course, Grad test, New SAT et….) I’m not against or for these tests. The jury is still out, but I wonder what the results will be in the long term for our youth.

By Dan

April 19, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this

The frenzy isn’t in the tests, it is in the reaction to them. I am 41 and I always had standardized tests. I don’t recall if they were used for promotion or not, but they were certainly used to ascertain what level class to put you in for a particular discipline. Test anxiety is something to work through not be excused for, the real world won’t care and as long as there is an over-ride clause it won’t hurt a student who truely has learned their lessons. People have to remember the real problem here is graduating and promoting students who can not read, write, or add. The system of positive reinforcement and rewarding effort rather than accomplishment has dragged the countries educational performance lower and lower It’s time to go back to educational roots and hold children and parents accountable

By Shauna

April 20, 2005 08:29 AM | Link to this

Dan,

I understand that it is time to hold parents and students responsible for their short-commings, but what about holding teachers to their short-comings? It seems that teachers want parents to do everything now days. For example, at my daughters school they are taking the ITBS tests this week and her teacher asked me if I could bring pencils since I work at a place that manufactures school supplies. I told her that I would bring them and she asked me to sharpen them for her as well. When I got to work, I realized that our receptionist hadn’t ordered any pencils recently so we did not have as many as the teacher asked for. I sharpened what I had at work and then over the weekend I went and bought the rest from the store. The store didn’t have a pencil sharpener that I could use so I ended up just handing the teacher the pencils unsharpened. Do you know that she was not happy because I didn’t sharpen the bulk of the pencils that I handed her! I also bought pencils for the other class and that teacher was grateful because I thought about her.

Anyway I say all of that to point out that teachers have changed as well as the parents and the students. You want to go back to educational roots and I agree that we need to. I also agree that parents need to go back to their old school roots as well. Education won’t go back until parents go back. Hopefully that will happen soon.

By William

April 20, 2005 09:07 AM | Link to this

Dan, I am the same age as you, and I feel exactly the same way. An event does not cause anxiety by itself, but it is our reaction to it that creates the anxiety. My child was told by a 5th grade teacher that “my class always scores the highest on standardized tests in this school.” Immediately my teacher-pleaser child experienced great anxiety over her lack of test taking skills. My child even came home with ITBS scores all at the 99th percentile, but was upset because she didn’t get a 100. Of course it is not possible to be in the 100th percentile (if you know how to read test scores), so my child thought she had failed the teacher. Shauna, this was definitely a case where the teacher needed to be held accountable. It seems to me that the teacher you refer to is a selfish fool, and I would hope that you can see there are many good teachers out there who would be appreciative of your efforts just to have your child in a healthy frame of mind at school. As for me, I generally am fortunate enough to be able to buy the pencils myself for my class. I would never think of asking a parent for something like that. I also agree with you that positive parent involvement is a great thing for schools and children.

By Robert

April 20, 2005 09:45 AM | Link to this

As a high school teacher, I welcome my students taking standardized tests. These results give me some measure of where my students are in terms of their learning. Note that it does NOT measure my ability to teach. What happens in my classroom cannot solely come from me. It is like verbal communication… it also takes someone to listen.

These tests are important, I guess, because our society has determined that education “bars” must be set for certain grade levels and then finally for a high school diploma (the Georgia High School Graduation Test). Is this a bad thing? I do not think so. These tests do require students to step up to the plate and perform - plain and simple. Students can no longer be promoted just because they try hard or just because they behave or just because the parent gives the teacher an expensive Christmas present (yes, I have been bribed before). Students must prove that they know the content. It’s a good thing.

By Ann

April 20, 2005 10:16 AM | Link to this

LISA, get a clue. Teachers and schools do not create standardized tests. NCLB and our lovely president in all of his wisdom have decided that standardized testing should be the be all end all of school. I’m sure that it has nothing to do from his lobbyist friends at the ETS (educational testing service) who create most of these tests. Standardized testing is a business plain and simple. There is money to be made from these, and you can be sure that the teachers and schools are not the beneficiaries.
The ultimate result of this testing is a waste of valuable classroom time that could be spent teaching and learning, but instead are spent with students and teachers being either completely bored, or totally panicked. Either way, it stinks…thank you NCLB!

By Dan

April 20, 2005 11:07 AM | Link to this

I agree Shauna it’s just you have to work at what you can control Teachers like any other profession have good and bad performers and it is tough to measure that performance. Testing isn’t a perfect way but it is better than nothing. I submit that there would be a correlation between increasing test scores and the teachers ability. Likewise there is probably a correlation between poor teachers and the amount they complain about testing

By Shauna

April 20, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this

William,

Thanks for the comments, but I really don’t mind helping my daughters teachers with classroom supplies. My daughter goes to private school and sometimes the school needs a little help. But a thank you would have been nice.

I know that I cannot be a teacher. I don’t have the patience but I do support teachers 100%. For all of you teachers out there, please believe me when I tell you that there are parents out here that do care and do believe in you and thank you for what you do.

For the record, my 2nd grader is not fazed at all by the test. Her teacher told her class to take their time and don’t panick. It’s funny, after the teacher told them that she had faith that they would do well, not one parent in her class has had a problem with their kid panicking. She got lucky.

By Lisa

April 20, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this

HELLO TO ALL BRAIN WASH SYSTEMATIC THINKERS!!!! IT’S CLEAR AS ALL DAY THAT TESTING CHILDREN HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH FINDING OUT WHAT LEVEL THERE ON!!! WAKE UP!!! PEOPLE!!! THE TEACHER AS WELL AS THE PARENT SHOULD KNOW!!! NOT A TEST!!!! THAT NO CHILD BEHIND ACT!! HOW DARE THE INTELLIGENT THINKER ASSAULT ME!! LOOK THAT’S ONLY DATA FOR BUSH TO DRAFT YOUR CHILD!!! YOU EITHER RICH OR POOR KNOW MIDDLE CLASS TEACHER OR THINKER!!! CHILD WILL BE EXEMPT!!! WHAT REALLY BOTHER ME!!! IS THAT ALL THE INTELLIGENT PEOPLE AT LEAST MOST OF THEM DON’T HAVE COMMON SENSE!!!!! THE REASON FOR THIS I BELIEVE, MOST OF THEM THINK THEY HAVE ARRIVE!! THEY CAN LOOK DOWN AT PEOLE LESS THAN THEM!!! I’AM AWARE OF WHAT’S GOING ON!!! I’AM NOT IN THE DARK!!! I RATHER PAY 15,000 A YEAR TO SEND MY CHILD TO A SCHOOL WHO WILL HAVE REAL THINKERS, EDUCATORS, AND KNOW GHOST OF A TEST TO RUN IT’S SCHOOL SYSTEM!!! TO THE SISTER FOR THAT YOU ARE TO ME WHO ATTACK MY THOUGHTS YOU ONLY HELP ME TO RECEIVE CONSTRUCTED CRITICISM!!! I LOVE YOU AND KEEP IT COMING!!!!

By Dan

April 20, 2005 12:46 PM | Link to this

Lisa the problem is simple to many kids are finishing high school with out the ability to read, write or do basic math. That is an indisputable fact. Also a fact is it has been getting worse for years despite doubling the education spending. So money is not the answer. Nothing has changed for the children, they have always been tested, the only difference now is that teachers are being held accountable for results and they are not being allowed to send uneducated children out into the world. That is causing the furor and they are using the “poor children” line to fool people. and lisa I guarantee if you send your child to that 15K a year school they will take that same test and do better at it.

By Matt

April 20, 2005 01:36 PM | Link to this

To Dan and William, Thanks. You explained it very well.

Dan said, “The frenzy isn’t in the tests, it is in the reaction to them”. Teachers need to know how students are performing. No one can argue that point. But when parents, teachers, administrators and the media uses the test results to make this a negative experience instead of a positive one, that’s when we hurt our kids.

By LISA

April 20, 2005 02:26 PM | Link to this

HEY DAN I TOTALLY AGREE!! TO A DEGREE! THE DIFFRENCE BETWEEN PRIVATE AND THE PUBLIC THE PRIVATE DON’T GET WORK UP ABOUT THE TEST BECAUSE THATS WHY PRIVATE SCHOOL WAS STARTED!! TO PRETTY MUCH GET AWAY FROM THE LABELING AND LOOP HOLES OF EDUCATING OUR STUDENTS.PARENTS NEED NOT TO BE IN THE DARK ABOUT THIS NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND LAW!!! I DID SAY LAW REASON FOR SAYING THAT!!! MOST KIDS WHO EVEN ATTEND A SCHOOL THAT HAVE THAT MUST SIGN UP FOR THE SERVICE, RICH KIDS DON’T HAVE THAT MANDATORY LAW IN THERE SCHOOL!!!! IT’S A SHAME THAT PEOPLE JUST DON’T WANT TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THERE LEARNING MORE THAN WHAT YOUR GOVERNMENT TELL YOU!!!! ONCE AGAIN WHY ARE THERE PRIVATE SCHOOL!!! IF THE NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND IS SO GREAT ALONG WITH TESTING THEN YOU TELL ME WHY YOU HAVE MORE KIDS BEING HOME SCHOOL AND PARENTS PAYING FOR PRIVATE.PUBLIC THERE GOOD BUT THEY ARE ALSO HURTING OUR KIDS WITH THIS PRESSURE OF BEING AN TEST RAT!!! NOW ONCE AGAIN HOW LONG WILL THE INTELLINGENT THINKER BE IN THE DARK!!!! IT AIN’T ABOUT YOU KIDS!!! IT’S ABOUT MONEY!!!! KEEP IT COMING!!!

By Sly

April 20, 2005 02:35 PM | Link to this

LISA - wow lady. Try a decaf. And go back to school and get smore lernin. These kids need to learn the material. The promotional bar has to be set somewhere. Right?

By LISA

April 20, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this

AND YOUR NAME IS SLY!!! JUST LIKE I THOUGHT LEARN FOR YOURSELF AND BY THE WAY YOUR INSULT OHHHHH IT DON’T HURT KEEP IT COMING!! IF YOUR GONING TO INSULT ME AT LEAST DO IT ON AN ADULT LEVEL NOT LIKE A CHILD WHO IS TIRED FROM TAKING THE CRCT TEST!!!

By Dan

April 20, 2005 03:11 PM | Link to this

Every child has to pass those tests home school, private school whatever. (I am not sure what the standards are but as low as the public school stds are I would imagine the home schoolers is higher) The only difference is the teachers are not rated on the test performance, and that is the main reason for their challenging of it, not the kids welfare People started moving to home schooling before no child left behind because it was patently obvious that all of the politically correct nonsense going on in the public schools was detracting from the students ability to actually learn. No child left behind is attempting to remove the subjectivity of rating the childrens progress with an objective measure. Now no set of tests are perfect, but it is certainly better than no measurment, particularly given the performance of our educators over the last decade.

By Patti

April 20, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

Students from private schools and homeschooled kids do not have to take the state tests mandated by No Child Left Behind. In Georgia, the state test is the CRCT.

However, homeschooled kids do have to take the Iowa Test of Basic Skills, though not every year. Their parents must maintain the records, but they do not have to provide them to the school district.

Most private-school kids take a nationally recognized test like the Iowa Test of Basic Skills, so parents can see where their kids are relative to other kids and determine if their child is learning at the private school. I did find one school that did not have any standardized testing, at least it didn’t in 2001, the year I wrote the story. The school is called Friends’ School of Atlanta. It’s a Quaker school located in Decatur. Some parents have their children take the Iowa anyway, even though the school doesn’t require it, because they want to know where their child stands.

It’s complicated stuff, this testing thing.

Patti Ghezzi Education Writer/Blogmaster

By Shauna

April 20, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

I agree with Dan,

If the parents react differently to the tests, the children will react differently. I’m not saying that the tests are right or wrong. I’m just saying that teaching children how to take tests, is not teaching them. If teachers could spend more time with the material and not the test itsself, maybe things would be better in schools. I have had teachers tell me that they are not teaching to the best of their ability because they have to make sure that the children know exactly what format the test is going to be in.

My thoughts are this, can’t they teach the way they used to and just change the format of their tests? If children start taking tests in Pre-K that are formatted the same way as the state tests, wouldn’t they be used to that format by the time they get to critical grades like 3rd, 5th, and 8th?

It may sound stupid to some, but at least it is a suggestion. Isn’t that why we’re here? To offer suggestions to one another.

Maybe it can’t be done, but it’s worth looking into.

By Dan

April 20, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this

What happens if a child home schooled through grade school wants to go to a public high school. Wouldn’t they have to pass some test CRCT or other to ensure they have the basic knowledge for that level?

By Shauna

April 20, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this

Patti,

You are so right. My daughter attends a private Christian school and every year they make every student take the ITBS test. This test is wonderful. My daughter has been testing 2-2.5 years over her grade level. I think it’s great. But, I got lucky - she’s a genius. (I’m a little biased, I guess)

By Dan

April 20, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this

I am 41 and I remember taking tests as far back as 3rd grade. I recall the Iowa tests and something I believe was an SRA test. We moved out of NYC when I was in 4th grade where I was in a catholic school. We then transferred to a public school upstate, where I had to take all kinds of tests to see where I was and they put me in classes accordingly. At 8 or 9 we learned how to fill in the little circles for these tests. We actually used to look forward to them because they were a break from routine and the test days were shorter. I never remember being taught how to take the test, well not until the SAT was approaching in HS but they had the PSAT to prep you. I think some teachers have cause and effect mixed up, it’s not that the tests are causing them to teach at a sub par level. The tests are revealing that they are teaching at a sub par level.

By LISA

April 20, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this

THE PROBLEM IS THIS I KNOW FOR A FACT HALF OF THE TEACHERS OR MAY I SAY PUBLIC SCHOOL, DON’T EVEN TEACH WHATS ON THE TEST!!! SO THEREFOR THEY STRESS THE KIDS OUT ABOUT SOMETHING THEY HAVE KNOW CLUE ABOUT THEMSELF!!! MEANING THE PRINCIPAL STRESS THE TEACHERS OUT SO THERE SCHOOL WANT BE ON THE NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND LIST!! AND THE TEACHER STRESS THE KIDS OUT SO THEY CAN KEEP THERE JOB.ONCE AGAIN THE SYSTEM DEALING WITH TESTING THESE CHILDREN HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR CHILD READING AND WRITING!!! ONLY MONEY. THANK YOU

By Dan

April 20, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this

Ok Lisa How can you be sure, your child is performing at an acceptable level and being challenged to learn at a level appropriate for his/her age.

By Tara

April 20, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this

Before NCLB, every state had some type of required testing. What NCLB did was require states to increase the number of years students are required to test, gave the public greater access to accountability data through the state report cards, and helped create a better picture demonstrating which subpopulations need more assistance. One important thing to note is that while a state may use the same test name as another state, the test has been altered or supplemented to adhere to specific state standards. Just because California and Vermont take the Stanford tests doesn’t mean the students are taking same test. Theoretically if a teacher teaches the standards, then the students should pass the test. What students often need help on is understanding how to take a test. When they are unsure of the answer how to eliminate obvious choices etc. Tests are a part of everyday life. I think most of the stress that kids feel doesn’t come from taking the test but is a build up of stress over the entire year from struggling to keep up with their peers.

By Patti

April 20, 2005 04:59 PM | Link to this

I’m not a psychometrician (a person schooled in the science of testing), but I’ll try to clear up some confusion.

The state test (the CRCT) is what No Child Left Behind requires, and it measures how well a child knows the state curriculum. You either do not meet, meet or exceed the “standard,” which is a slippery term, but that’s a topic for another day.

Private schools and homeschooled kids do not necessarily follow the state curriculum, and they do not take the CRCT. Public schools must comply with NCLB, because they receive federal funds and this is a federal law.

Now, kids in public schools also take a norm-referenced test, or a nationally normed test. There are several on the market such as the Iowa Test of Basic Skills, the Stanford 9 and the California Achievement Test. (I think that one’s still around.) I believe public school kids take this test at least in grades 3, 5 and 8. Some districts may have the kids take it more often.

A norm referenced test tells you how well your child does relative to other kids in the country who took the same test. So if you are in Mississippi, Vermont or Idaho, the test is the same. It is not tweaked based on your state’s so-called standards.

The school and the parent get the child’s results in the form of a percentile for each subject, say 77 or 42 or 26. The higher the number the better, obviously. The Iowa also gives you an estimated grade level, say 4.6, which means fourth grade, sixth month. Many testing experts warn parents not to rely too heavily on these figures. The percentile is a more accurate reflection of your child’s skills.

If a homeschooled child entered public school, something that happens all the time, the parent could provide the results on the Iowa and the school could glean whether the child knows her basic subjects. The school might also give the child a placement test to determine, well, placement.

I’d be happy to answer any other testing questions you have, and if I don’t know the answer I’ll call in the real experts, the psychometricians.

Patti

By LISA

April 20, 2005 05:07 PM | Link to this

DAN OKAY WHAT IS AN ACCEPTABLE LEVEL!!! STUDY SHOWS EACH CHILD LEARN DIFFERENT SO HOW CAN WE PUT KIDS IN A BOX!!! OKAY!!! THAT WHY WE HAVE MONTESSORI SCHOOLS NOW!!! SO KIDS CAN REACH THERE FULL POTENTIAL RIGHT WHERE THERE AT!!! TO DAN ONCE AGAIN YOU MUST LISTEN!!! ALL KIDS ARE NOT ALIKE AND THEY DON’T LEARN THE SAME!!!! NOW PERFECT EXAMPLE!!! THE TWO YOUNG MEN WHO STARTED GOOGLE THEY WAS TOLD THEY WAS STRANGE NOT ON ANY REGULAR SCHOOL LEVEL BUT YET THEY ARE NOW FOUNDER AND OWNERS OF AN INTERNATIONAL COMPANY AND SO IS BILL GATES WHO DID NOT FINISH COLLEGE BUT THE RICHES MAN IN THE WORLD!!! AND OH THE CEO OF GE WHO HAVE NOW RETIRE HE DID NOT FINISH HIGH SCHOOL AND ADMIT HE HAD DYSLEXIC!!! SO TELL ME WHAT DO A TEST HAVE TO DO WITH IT!!!

By Dan

April 21, 2005 08:10 AM | Link to this

You are right Lisa all kids are differnent that is why they test so they can see where they are. People can certainly succeed without a formal education, but I am quite sure these tests would have been no problem for any of them. No one is trying to put kids in a box, they are simply to ensure a minimum level of competency. The worst part is the bar is set so low it may provide a false sense of accomplishment for those just meeting the mark. I am not sure meeting the mark means you are prepared for society. As vehement as you are about this I suspect you would be just as passionate if your child graduated without the ability to read, and the fact is you can’t have it both ways

By EW

April 21, 2005 08:15 AM | Link to this

Lisa, before you post your bashings of the public school system, check your own grammer so you do not sound so uneducated yourself.

By Shauna

April 21, 2005 08:23 AM | Link to this

I think that one of the biggest problems with public schools is that they use too many different publishers. The problem with that is every publisher attempts to teach a lesson a different way. That leads to gaps in the education the children are receiving.

One of the reasons private/homeschooling kids do better on standarized tests is because they only use one publisher. At my daughter’s school, they use the A-Beka cirriculum only. This leaves no room for a differing opinion or any contradictions. Plus, every lesson is taught using the same examples and the same stories. Its kinda neat in a way. The spelling is tied in with the math and the social studies and the language and the reading. The kids see the same words and concepts over and over again during 1 lesson. If the public schools would adopt just one publisher and use that publisher exclusively, they might see a change.

Once again, just another suggestion from someone who has no experience teaching. I could be wrong. Could one of the teachers reading this give me some feedback about what they think, please?!

By Rachel Hanson

April 21, 2005 08:55 AM | Link to this

I read these comments and become quite uneasy. First of all, for a child to be all he or she can be there needs to be a home-school partnership. So please do not whine about having to purchase supplies for a classroom. Also, teachers are teaching what students need to learn, but sometimes the students themselves are not open to the learning. Let’s put the blame for poor performance in both places. Standardized tests are a fact of life and always have been, so get over it. It really fries me when people who are squabbling over education post messages rife with grammar mistakes. Believe me, that’s the kind of apathy I see in the classroom every day. Finally, I am an excellent teacher who sets the bar high every day. My students, and their wonderful parents, rise to the occasion every day as well. I am blessed with families who care about a good education and don’t whine about things beyond their control.

By Rachel

April 21, 2005 09:02 AM | Link to this

Shauna,

Students learn in several different ways. Everyone has a different learning style. Books should only be one resource to teach a child, they should not become the curriculum. Often there are differing opinions and contradictions because there is not only one way to do something. Students of this century need to be good information gatherers and sifters. In my classroom, the book from the publisher is simply a resource, not the end all, be all answer.

By Shauna

April 21, 2005 09:19 AM | Link to this

Rachel,

I was not whining about having to purchase supplies for my daughters class, read the posts accurately next time. I was saying that the teacher did not seem to appreciate what I bought. I am glad that you set the bar high for your students. I also hope that you understand that not all students will meet that bar all the time and that you aren’t putting too much pressure on them.

This forum is for informational purposes as well as a place for us to vent our frustrations about the school systems. Every now and again people do show up that have problems with spelling and grammar. But that’s okay as long as they have a message.

Since you are sitting there reading all of the posts that are here, what did you think about my suggestion about using one publisher?

By Shauna

April 21, 2005 09:32 AM | Link to this

Rachel,

Do you think that it is a good idea for children to be taught 3 or 4 different ideas about one subject? If so, how do you test them on it? What if you ask a question expecting a certain answer, and they give you a different answer? Do you give the child credit for the answer they provided? I just think that with one publisher, learning one cirriculum, helps the child understand the concept. Once the concept is understood, then I think that it is okay to give them other opinions.

I just know what works for the kids at my daughters school. Most of the kids at her school score very high on these tests. They don’t seem as stressed as other kids do.

By teach

April 21, 2005 09:48 AM | Link to this

First of all, Lisa is annoying and I think that people should stop whining and complaining about the school system unless they have a clue about what to do about it and are making an effort to do this. I’m tired of non-teachers thinking they know what’s best for the people who are actually in the schools. Yes, I am an educator, and yes, I think we have major problems. But until you’ve been in a classroom and taught the students for any length of time, you have no idea.

And as far as teachers wanting parents to do everything…don’t even get me started. While there are great parents who stay involved and care, there are more of them who don’t even know what subjects their children are taking. Too many parents send their children off to school and expect the school to raise them. IT HAS TO BE A COLLABORATIVE EFFORT! We are just teachers, and there are many things we are unable to teach them at school. They are affected more by the examples set at home than they are the information taught to them at school!

And EW, it’s spelled grammar.

By Rachel

April 21, 2005 10:11 AM | Link to this

Shauna,

The pencils were for the students in the class to use, right? I’m sure THEY were grateful. And I do feel that if people are going to put ideas in writing that they should do so correctly. Aren’t poor communication skills also a problem in our society? Doesn’t this problem need to be rectified? As far as using one publisher across the board, that is not always possible. A system will use the same publisher for the language arts curriculum in all of its schools, but may need to look elsewhere for a social studies book. I don’t want my students to give cookie cutter answers to questions. I want them to think because that’s what they will do in the work force. In addition, my test scores have always been extremely high on all standardized tests.

By Shauna

April 21, 2005 10:12 AM | Link to this

Teach,

I will be the first person in the world to agree with you that people who have never taught before should be quiet if they only have negative things to say. But, I have a question. Don’t people know what they are getting into when they choose to become a teacher? I mean, should parents feel bad for teachers because they have it hard with (lets be honest here) MOST of the children in their class?

Its sort of like people in the military. Don’t complain about going to war. That’s what militaries are for.

I’m not trying to be confrontational, I really want to know if college truly prepares you for the types of conflicts that you guys are confronted with in real life.

(I know in the accounting world, college is no help at all. I hope you guys get more hands-on help and real world experience than we get.)

By Shauna

April 21, 2005 10:24 AM | Link to this

Rachel,

My comment really was about the fact that I got the pencils and that the teacher was upset that I didn’t get them sharpened. I realize that she may have needed them sharpened, because they are no good if not, but she asked for them at the last minute and I was in a rush to get them to her. Trust me, I am probably one of the most involved parent you will run across. I have a job so I can’t be there all the time, but trust me, I’m there when the teacher needs me. Plus, my kid better not ever try to bring me home a grade any less than a “B”. There are plenty of resources for her to tap into.

In addition, my daughter is in the second grade and last year when she took the ITBS test, her scores ranged between 2.5 and 4.0. So, in first grade, she was testing in reading at a fourth grade level. I also understand that I’m lucky, my kid cares and wants to go to college like her big brother and sister. I give alot to the school and the teacher, but I also expect alot as well.

By teach

April 21, 2005 10:25 AM | Link to this

Shauna,

Of course teachers know what they are getting into. I knew that I would be frustrated and underpaid, but teaching is what I love so there was really no other choice. Now, that doesn’t mean that I won’t complain, because it’s still frustrating to put up with the bad things, but that’s true in most any profession.

I don’t think parents should feel bad for teachers. I do think that parents should try to understand what teachers go through and deal with every day to teach their children. Many parents have no idea what teachers really do throughout the day. Plus, my work doesn’t end when I leave campus, it follows me home and stays with me on weekends and every “break” I have. I think many parents should be more thankful to the teachers who do care and work hard to help their children.

College gave me the basic knowledge I needed to teach my subject, but it did in no way prepare me for everything else. Teaching is only 10% actaully teaching, the rest is paperwork, preparing, dealing with parents, discipline, etc. I learned more in my 10 weeks of student teaching than I did in my 4 years of college.

By Rachel

April 21, 2005 10:27 AM | Link to this

I certainly do not want to speak for “teach”. I went back to a special grad school program to get my teaching degree. I worked in the corporate arena prior to that. I guess the feelings that teachers have come from the constant bashing of the profession. I really haven’t seen too many negative articles about accountants lately. We are all just trying to provide the best for children in this country. I wake up every day with one goal in mind: to give my students the best well-rounded education that they can get!

By Rachel

April 21, 2005 10:28 AM | Link to this

I certainly do not want to speak for “teach”. I went back to a special grad school program to get my teaching degree. I worked in the corporate arena prior to that. I guess the feelings that teachers have come from the constant bashing of the profession. I really haven’t seen too many negative articles about accountants lately. We are all just trying to provide the best for children in this country. I wake up every day with one goal in mind: to give my students the best well-rounded education that they can get!

By Shauna

April 21, 2005 10:51 AM | Link to this

Rachel,

Just like you feel that parents have no idea what teachers go through, teachers have no idea what parents go through. Teachers don’t know how hard other professions are. Every one has their hardships. But, teachers have vowed to teach our children. That should be their only goal. Not filling out paperwork and not dealing with silly distractions. It’s not fair for you guys to have to worry about things that administrators should be handling. Like silly/crazy/stupid parents. Trust me, I read a blog on here last week where a woman said that she was treated very badly by a parent.

I went to school to be a teacher for 1 year. I couldn’t handle it. So, I have a slight idea what you go through. I CANNOT do it. I applaude you, but I don’t understand why teachers have to do more than plan their lessons and teach. Everything else should be handled by staff. Oh, and also attend PTA meetings. I hate it when the teachers don’t show up for the PTA meetings. If I take the time to be there, so should the teacher.

If I’m wrong, I’m sure you’ll let me know.

By teach

April 21, 2005 11:07 AM | Link to this

You forget that many teachers are also parents.

It drives me crazy that we have to jump through all the “hoops” throughout the schoolyear. Some of it is necessary, while some seems pointless. I feel teachers should be allowed to focus on the teaching, not the hoops.

However, in order to keep everything running smoothly, teaching does involve more than just planning and teaching. It’s not enough to just show up, teach some lessons, grade some papers, and go home…if you want to be an effective teacher.

I agree that teachers need to be seen at parent meetings and so forth. However, just like a parent is attending these meetings to support and be involved with their children and families, a teacher has family obligations as well that may not take place at their school of employment. I think that many times this is forgotten. Teachers go home and have families with children that they have to take care of, just like everyone else.

By Rachel

April 21, 2005 11:41 AM | Link to this

Shauna,

I am a teacher and a parent. I do understand what parents go through. I agree with you that we shouldn’t have to do all of the other administrative things, but it is the nature of the beast so to speak. It’s a juggling act for sure. I would love to only plan my lessons and work with the students; however, I just do not see that happening. You’re right. I chose this profession and knew what I was getting into: paperwork, PTA, and parent conferences. I do not usually complain about it. When I read about or hear the community at large bashing my profession it just gets kind of frustrating because 99% of the time they just don’t have all the facts.

By LISA

April 21, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this

OKAY LADIES!! DON’T FIGHT!! THIS IS JUST AN OUTLET TO DIALOGUE ABOUT EDUCATION!!! NOW THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS!!! YOU HAVE A GROUP OF TEACHERS RIGHT NOW!! THAT ARE SUEING IN REGARDS TO THE NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND LAW!!! THE NATION’S LARGEST TEACHER UNION AND SCHOOL DISTRICT IN THREE STATES.NOW TEACHER AND SHAUNA YOU MIGHT WANT TO READ UP ON THIS MATTER.I MEAN WHAT PART OF THIS YOU JUST DON’T UNDERSTAND!!! FOR SOME REASON THE SOUTHERN STATE WHICH I’AM FROM ATLANTA, GEORGIA JUST DON’T UNDERSTAND THAT MONEY THAT WAS PROMISE FOR THIS PROGRAM!!! THAT WAS NOT GIVEN!!! I MEAN IT’S AWFUL FOR PEOPLE TO BE IN THE DARK THAT TEACHERS WHO ARE PARENTS, BUT MOST OF THERE CHILDREN DON’T EVEN ATTEND PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM!!! IT REALLY HURT ME TO KNOW THAT EDUCATED PEOPLE WHO TRY TO CORRECT ME ON GRAMMAR AND SPELLING, DON’T HAVE COMMON SENSE ARE WISDOM!!! I CAN UNDERSTAND TEST IF A STUDENT COME FROM ANOTHER STATE OR EVEN ANOTHER SCHOOL!!AND DID NOT START OFF AT THAT SCHOOL!! BUT WHEN A KID START FROM KINDERGARTEN TO FIFTH GRADE AND YOU NEED A TEST TO TELL YOU WHATS WRONG!!! THEN I SAY FIRST THE PARENT, THE PRINCIPAL AND THE QUALITY OF THE TEACHER NOT THE TEST WHICH YOU DUMP ON THE KIDS!!! THE KIDS ARE BASICALLY GETTING WHAT YOU GIVE!!! AND OH BY THE WAY GROWN UPS DON’T KNOW EVERYTHING EITHER.ONCE AGAIN KEEP IT COMING THE LOWS AND THE HIGH’S. I LOVE YOU ALL.

By Patti

April 21, 2005 12:50 PM | Link to this

Lisa, if you wouldn’t mind, please take off your caps lock when you type. It feels like your shouting.

Thanks!

Patti

By Shauna

April 21, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this

Rachel,

I meant that you don’t understand what parents in other job related fields go through. Not what parents in general go through.

I’m in accounting, so certain times of the month and year (month-end closing and year-end closing) it is hard for me to get away. I also have a weekly check run that I must administer every week. So, you see, if you add that into the equation, it leaves little time during the month for me to have to worry about what my child is doing at school. She should be learning at school. Her teacher should be in the classroom with her, teaching her fractions and definitions to challenging words. Not in the office having to worry about administrative things.

I hope you didn’t take my comment personally about not understanding parents. Like I said, I meant that teachers don’t understand how hard it is for parents in other professions. Sometimes, work hours are extended to get the job done for me, just like they are for you. Except, you can opt to take yours home, I can’t. I might have to stay in the office until 8 or 9 to get month-end closing accomplished. You have the option of taking papers home to grade them. At least you are home with your kids.

Working moms have it tough, whether or not they are teachers or CEOs.

By Rachel

April 21, 2005 01:05 PM | Link to this

Lisa,

As a teacher I really don’t pay much attention to No Child Left Behind quite honestly because I do my job every day. People need to stop whining about programs. I’m tired of it. It all comes down to good solid teaching. Believe me, if a student is taught in an accepting environment with a well-schooled educator, they will learn everything they need to know to do well on a test and way beyond that.

In addition, Shauna and I are not fighting. We are exchanging a dialogue between two intelligent people.

Also, my son attends a public Kindergarten and I could not be happier with the excellent education he is getting. Hooray for public schools and great teachers who care more about the students than programs they can do nothing about at this point.

By Rachel

April 21, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this

Shauna,

Of course I do not take it personally! I couldn’t be an accountant either. I think when it comes right down to it, it’s all about the best thing for the children.

By Shauna

April 21, 2005 01:26 PM | Link to this

Rachel is correct, we are not fighting. To be honest, I’m glad that the two of us are on here. It shows that two people can have an intelligent conversation and be respectful. I have questions that she can answer. What could be better than that.

Rachel,

I am glad that your child is getting a good public education. I send my child to private school because she gets a good education with a cirriculum that I love along with the Christian values that my husband and I live by. She can’t get that in public school. I live in a great area where the public schools are wonderful (according to neighborhood parents), but I want Christ in my child’s everyday life and learning. Public school can’t give me that. Our decision for private school is based solely on this concept. And, if I haven’t said it before, that you for being a teacher that cares and respects what she does. Bottom line is that everyone has something about their job that they don’t like. Unfortunately, we just hear about yours more than you hear about ours.

By Rachel

April 21, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

I grew up in a Catholic school because my parents wanted the same thing. Take care!

By Shauna

April 21, 2005 01:52 PM | Link to this

Are are the tests done yet? How long do they take anyway?

By teach

April 21, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

I’m tired of trying to read Lisa’s crazy yelling comments. I think she’s a kid.

I’m a band director, and my hours rival those of anyone in the business field. I get to school at 7:30, and there are weeks when I don’t get home before 8:00. Tonight I won’t even get home by then. Why? I’m staying late to help students, then I have a parent meeting. Other nights I’m here playing piano for the school musical, or having after school rehersals, working on instruments, music, marching band, the list goes on. My day doesn’t end when the bell rings. I know other classroom teachers that stay late to help students and who don’t have time during the day to plan so they stay late every day to take care of their “busy work.”

I don’t like to moan and groan, but as someone said earlier, it gets frustrating when all you hear and read is complaining about schools and teachers, and there comes a point when you have to stand up for your profession.

I personally think that if more people could sit down and talk calmly, NOT LIKE THIS, that teachers and parents (the ones who care) could collaborate and decide what is best for each student.

By Rachel

April 21, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this

Shauna, Today was our last day of testing. :)

By Shauna

April 21, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

Teach,

You’re right, if each students’ parent would take time out to meet their childs teacher, then that child would be much better off. Each student is different and special in their own way. My child, for example, has to have extra work because when she finishes her regular work, she gets bored and gets in trouble. Her teacher and I both know that, so when she tells me that she gets more work than the other students, I remind her of her behavior when she gets bored. After I explain to her, again and again, that she needs extra work to keep her mind going and to stay out of trouble, she’s fine.

But, if it weren’t for her teacher and I being able to communicate and agree that she needs more work than others, she would be in trouble and in the office all of the time.

PEOPLE - COMMUNICATION IS THE KEY. HELP YOUR KIDS BY TALKING TO THEIR TEACHERS. YES, I AM YELLING AT YOU NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By LISA

April 21, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

Hey Patti I will take the caps off because I’am not yelling and for those who assume I’am shame on you!!! You should be a little bit kinder!!! But I forgot we are DEBATING!!!.And I LOVE IT!!! I’am for helping the helpless, people who just don’t know.It’s important that we share the wisdom and not the foolish thinking because the bottom line is this!! That NCLB MESS IT’S ABOUT MONEY!!!Not tracking the quality of the Teachers or the system, It’s about MONEY!!That’s why private school make money, and help kids!!! because they don’t have to use government money to get the best Teachers to teach.They use common since and turn down that money!!! Money can help or It can hinder you.

By Dan

April 21, 2005 03:14 PM | Link to this

Actually public schools on average spend more than private schools per student. The education standards for teachers are not as high and they get paid less. (remember I am talking on average) What they don’t have to do is follow all of the polically correct nonsense, they don’t have the inane zero tolerence rules and they generally have more cooperative parents. So it really isn’t about money, the less government interference the better, and giving educators a test goal as opposed to micro managing each little thing is in the end less government