Get Schooled

By B.C.

April 8, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this

I think it some aspects I do not find this surprising at all. This article goes back to children having and learning respect. If they disrespect their parents at home then they are surely going to disrespect their teachers. It is just sad that teachers have to put up with this kind of behavior. I know some teachers get paid well but others aren’t getting paid what it’s worth for trying to do their job but yet get disrespected and treated so poorly. I had thoughts of being a teacher and coaching cheerleading but I could not take a child cursing at me and treating me the way some kids feel they can treat adults…I would be truly heart broken knowing that I am trying my hardest to do my job and then have a child be so disrespectful as some have been reported. I agree something needs to be done. They send them to alternative school but that clearly does not work. I graduated in 2003 and the “bad” kids would go away and come right back and be themselves again. Some measures need to be taken and I think it should start in the home.

By JR

April 8, 2005 11:46 AM | Link to this

I am 50 and from the old school where we had to show respect to our elders. If I misbehaved at school, I would get in trouble there, when I got home to my mother and a third time when my father got home from work. Today’s parents don’t want to treat their kids like they were treated. Unfortunately, this is not how to be a good parent. I don’t have a solution to the problem, but if the worst of the trouble makers could be placed in a military/boot camp environment for one school year, they might learn some respect. If society would allow it.

By Jennifer

April 8, 2005 12:06 PM | Link to this

I was a teacher aide and I saw many parents being outright rude and discourteous to teachers and other staff members. How can we teach children respect when their parents aren’t showing respect?

It also seems the school administration is too afraid of being sued to do anything about continually disruptive students. There are also parents who believe ‘kids will be kids’ even when what their child is doing is above and beyond ‘kids being kids’. It is this mentality that keeps children from learning consequences for their actions, and, in turn, they grow up to be unproductive adults who blame society for their problems rather than focusing on themselves.

I do not believe this problem will be remedied until administrators begin punishing students (i.e. detention, suspension, explusion) for their actions. The children must also be made aware as to why the punishment was instituted because I highly doubt their parent(s) are going to tell them it was because of their actions.

When I was in school the principal was allowed to paddle a child for badly misbehaving, but now society deems it an atrocity if a child is spanked at all. Maybe this is not the solution for everyone, but I think the children know there won’t be any consequences at all whether it’s at school or at home.

Teaching should not be dangerous. Children who have abused teachers should be immediately removed from the classroom and from the school and put somewhere else. Sadly, some may never come around, but you can’t save everyone.

By ms.rogers

April 8, 2005 12:21 PM | Link to this

STOP PUTTING CHILDREN DOWN,STOP PROVKING CHILDREN,MY GOD WHEN ARE WE GOING TO HELP!!!!! OUR CHILDREN.TAKE A STAND WILL YOU.CHILD ABUSE IS AGAINST THE LAW.

By Jennifer

April 8, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this

I’ll have to admit I’m surprised by this article. I had assumed that our friends across the pond were in far better shape than we were, at least as far as discipline in the class is concerned.

As for the thrust of the article…. I taught for 2 years and met 10 teachers who would actually talked to me about their job-related depression and/or use of antidepressants. So, I’m not surprised, I’m just surprised that it’s that bad outside of America.

By Devil's Advocate

April 8, 2005 12:45 PM | Link to this

Here’s a great blog about teaching at one school in England:

http://blackboardjungle.blogspot.com/

It seems that public schools may have the same problems everywhere.

By Gail

April 8, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this

Child abuse is against the law, but so is assault. If a student hits or otherwise abuses a teacher, he/she should be punished by the law. What if they are only children? Hold their parents accountable for their children’s actions. I work in a school and I overheard a 2nd grade boy threaten to sue another youngster for accidentally bumping into him. He had to learn this attitude at home. Students will be no better than their parents.

By Long_time_teacher

April 8, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this

I am a long-time teacher-a rarity it seems, in a career where the new teachers coming in, on average leave after 4 years because of the poor conditions.

I am not surprised by the study; in addition to worsening levels of disrespect by both parents and students, the demands grow with each new legislative season. People who’ve never done the job think they are experts on what works.

Parents fight us at every turn when we try to remediate. If your doctor told you you needed a course of treatment, you might possibly seek a second opinion, but invariably, will follow the advice. Teachers recommend various strategies, only to have parents step in and refuse. Then the following year come back and demand to know why Little Precious is failing.

Teachers are not treated professionally, and this is very demoralizing. Those colleagues of mine with less supportive administrators really suffer.

The cure? Start holding parents responsible; start holding your children responsible. If your child doesn’t do the homework, don’t make excuses-baseball and soccer practice are NOT more important than schoolwork, ever. Make your child study-no extra credit to pull up that sorry grade!

And yes, I have two children. I have held them accountable, not their teachers. NO excuses. One has a moderate-to-severe case of dyslexia—and has been held to “regular” standards in reg. ed classrooms. Another is graduating and going on to a major university. I respect my sons’ teachers, and in turn, they care for and respect my sons.

When parents come up to school and are allowed to disrespect teachers-usually in front of the children- it undermines the teacher’s ability to reach that child.

There have been many times throughout the years that I have seriously thought of leaving. Then I remember how many lives I truly HAVE changed for the better, and push on. However, after being punched in the face by an elementary school student several years ago, and listening in disbelief as the mom asked, “What did she do to p** off my son to make him hit her?” was mind-boggling, and will stay with me forever, as a perfect example of why this sometimes is a truly THANKLESS job. I cherish each of my ‘babies’ that sit in my class. I keep each of their notes they write to me (mispellings and all!) thanking me for being their teacher. I appreciate each little show of thanks from the parents as well. This is what keeps me going!

By E. Lewis

April 8, 2005 01:03 PM | Link to this

As a former public school teacher, I am not the least bit surprised. I got out of that profession and now work in an area where I have more flexibility and don’t have to answer to hundreds of parents and politicians who have more opinions than solutions to why kids are doing poorly.

Heaven forbid that anyone other that the teachers take the blame!!

By B.C.

April 8, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this

We are all aware that child abuse is illegal… BUT it is not illegal to show your child authority. As a child I was not spanked-but I was put in timeout and grounded. I asure you when I have children if they misbehave and timeout does not hepl they will get spanked. Not so hard that it leaves bruises and not with anything like a belt or anything but they will learn respect and will not disrespect their elders. I have a family member who,yes she is a cute child, but she is a brat. She gets anything she wants and she will yell and scream at whoever if she does not get her way. She calls home and tells mommy that her teacher was mean to her and immediately mommy is to the rescue and checks her out. That is what I will not put up with. You go to school to learn-not to be the class bully or the one who curses out every teacher and has no remorse for actions made.

By RC

April 8, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this

Well, ms.rogers’s tirade pretty well sums it up. If you tell a child he is wrong, you are putting him down. If you tell a child “no”, it is provoking him. If you correct a child, it is child abuse. No one mentioned beating children. Those of us in education are simply asking for a level of common respect and behavior that does not impede the learning of others. After 31 years of teaching elementary school, I’ve seen almost every educational fad go around under one name and come around under another name. Children can learn using just about any educational program, curriculum, or strategy. But the only thing they learn under a system of chaos, is chaos. Chaos is what comes out of so many homes today. Children learn that bullying, swearing, and threatening get you what you want. You don’t like something? Threaten to sue or beat someone. Things won’t change at school until you change what is going on at home.

By Shauna

April 8, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this

Long-time-teacher,

I am very sorry that happened to you. This is the very reason why did not become a teacher after spending the money for the degree in the first place. I would have beat the crap (because I can’t cuss) out of that child and his mother if she didn’t like it.

I am a parent to a 7-year-old girl and I do not except any excuse for why her homework is not done in time for me to check over her answers. I not only check to see if the homework is done, I check for accuracy as well. I want to make sure that she has mastered the concept that has been taught. My daughter is in cheerleading and I wish that she would think that cheering is more important than school.

I may be a little too overprotective when it comes to her, but I think that her teachers appreciate it. I really wish that more parents thought like I did. I’m actually thinking about home schooling next year. I think it might be easier than dealing with kids whose parents don’t understand how horribly bad their children really are.

It seems like the worst a child acts, the more the parents defend them. That is truly sad. Parents should be made to be responisble for their children. Believe it or not, the other children in the class suffer as well. They see all of this going on and they go home and ask their parents why people act that way. They don’t understand that not everyone is taught to have the manners and respect that they are taught.

They think that it is not fair for “Susie” or “Joe” to act up but they have to behave all the time. It is really hard on teachers and I feel sorry for them. I could not do what they do at all.

By Blaine

April 8, 2005 01:56 PM | Link to this

Good Heavens! Why in the world is it such a problem to hold parents and their bratty kids responsible for their own actions? In the real world, if I disrespect my boss, hit someone, act up in meetings, don’t do my work, I can get fired. No parent-boss conferences, no nothing. Fired. PERIOD!

But, in today’s society in regards to kids and education, it seems everyone wants to blame the teachers(i.e. the boss). I honestly wish if kids were such a problem, kick them outta school! I do not want my child’s educational experience to be jeopardized by someone else’s brat who does not know how to respect others and learn. Besides, one day, those bratty kids will be working for my kid….and oh the poetic justice that comes along with that.

I could go further but why….all the parents with bratty kids will be saying, “Oh you can’t do that to my child” or “You just don’t understand”. That is fine, that is your opinion. But, please keep in mind how competitive it is to get in colleges these days…and yet again, my kid will be in an ivy league school and yours will be flippin’ burgers! I guess that will be the teacher’s fault as well…..

By Capt. Louie

April 8, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

My two kids are in public school. I graduated myself in 1985. Good points here about holding children and thier parents responsible, and enforcing it.

I think that people don’t respect schools for a lot or reasons. Among them are that school boards don’t seem to respect parents. They appear arrogant and aloof, and never seem to be willing to take any steps at meetings except to give themselves raises, hand out extravagant salaries and perks, and take “retreats” to a $300/night hotel on Jekyll Island at taxpayer’s expense. It’s give and take, folks. Yes, I realize one begets the other. It is a vicious circle. But no one seems to be willing to take the first step.

I want to give another perspective of the respect for teachers angle.

I have a high IQ. When I was in high school, I lacked respect for some of my teachers. I had enough respect for authority not to show it, and therein lies a conspicuous difference. My point is, when I saw the profound lack of intelligence and qualifications of these teachers, it affected me. My 10-year old son came home and told me once he noticed that one of his teachers mispells things. It’s a problem. Respect must be earned, folks, not simply handed out like candy. Also too often, even otherwise intelligent teachers are not suited for teaching because of thier attitude, inability to teach, or laziness. How many of us remember the teacher from school who really seemed to know the subject, but was contemptous personally? I do. There were several. I had one that would give you an automatic failing grade if she caught you comparing test scores with classmates. Why? Because she graded so inconsistently, (what was right on my test was wrong on someone else’s) that people would question her. So to end all questioning, the Failure-for-comparing rule. If you brought up that your answer was right on it’s on merits, you got a negative ten points for “disrespect”. How are children supposed to respect that? If I got it right, and Sally puts the exact same answer, and is told it’s wrong, who learns what? When you come across this kind of teacher, demand that your child be placed with someone competent. Don’t take NO for an answer, either. Expose the idiot teachers, and get rid of them. I know, I know, at these salaries, it’s hard to find good help. Fine, then tell your legislator. Go to his/her office and refuse to leave until they are just as willing to spend the same amount of money raising teacher salaries as they do making themselves and thier cronies happy.

There are also far too many lecherous teachers at the schools, in both sexes. Do you tell your son that he has to have respect for his teacher when even he knows she is boinking his best friend? Girls also notice when male teachers stare at them.

Schools want respect? Stop the process where teachers/administrators are arrested for child porn, drug offenses, or even physically attacking the students. Don’t try the whole “She was defending herself” routine. Self-defense is one thing. Fracturing a parent’s skull with a trash can while her back is turned is another. Fire that teacher, sure, but now you have taught that whole class who witnessed it not to trust any teacher behind you with a trash can handy. This is a learning environment? I’m tired of suggesting cameras in classrooms to hear the piteous whining from teachers unions about “privacy” and not being able to tech adequately whhile being “watched”. Um, unless I’m wrong, It’s a public classroom where you have 20-30 of other people’s children. YOU ARE BEING WATCHED BY 20-30 PEOPLE!, and there is NO PRIVACY THERE. If you can’t teach while being watched, then you can’t teach with anyone in the room. I also think that every couselor’s office and principal/asst principal/dean’s office should be on camera also. With videotape. There will be no he said/she said. It can be reviewed instantly.

Students & Parents accountable? YES! Teachers/ Administrators and Boards accountable? YES! Make BOTH happen.

By Jennifer

April 8, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

Interesting how some people blow everything out of proportion. I never mentioned beating the child into submission. I only stated that when I was in school a child was spanked if no other form of punishment worked. I also said this may not be for everyone.

If my children misbehave badly and they are not responding to other forms of punishment then I certainly will give them a quick tap on the bottom. It is certainly not my first form of punishment, but when all else fails that tap on the butt gets their attention.

Now, on to something more productive than answering to an over-reactive post:

I am not sure how to hold parents and children responsible for the child’s actions. Wherever you turn the same answer is given, “our hands are tied”. I do not understand, at what point did things change so drastically that school administrators are afraid of parents suing them? If little Johnny or little Suzy cannot control themselves and they are repeatedly disrupting class to the point where students cannot learn to the best of their ability, then little Suzy and little Johnny need to be removed. Period. My tax money goes to the schools so they may educate my children and other children, but if there are families in the system who repeatedly disobey the law then they should be removed and my tax money should not go to force-educate them. The parents should then have to worry about where to place their precious packages because the public school system is not a place for children who are abusive.

The shooting of the football coach is a very good example. Most of the people interviewed said the father was a very mean, disruptive, and combative person. What do you think his son is like? I think it’s very sad his son has nothing to compare life experiences to other than a raging father who is obviously not a productive member of society. But where does it stop? The father felt the need after he shot the coach to go into the woods and cut his wrists and stab himself in the leg because he felt his son was being picked on. Well, whether it’s right or not, when I was in school and a parent showed up to ‘protect’ their child everyone made fun of them. A child has to learn to hold their own and we, as parents, cannot be ‘helicopter parents’ and flutter around waiting to protect our children from whatever horrible wrong they encounter. Otherwise, they will never learn how to deal with disappointments and other curve balls life has to throw at them. At the same time, we cannot be army sergeants and bellow at them either.

By Devil's Advocate

April 8, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this

Captain Louie,

What accountablity for students and parents did you mention?

Other than criminal charges, which are being filed, what would you do to get rid of the teachers who break laws? Are you able to anticipate in advance how people will act?

Um, where did you get the impression that a teacher having sex with a student was worthy of having your son’s respect? If you have knowledge of sex between students and teachers, then you may have moral responsibility to report it. If you son simple believe this of his teacher, with no evidence, then perhaps you should more critically examine why he believes it to be true.

In most systems, as far as I know, the teacher behavior than you describe wouldn’t be permitted. If you brought your teacher’s “no questions or I’ll lower your grade” policy about grading to the attention of his or her supervisors, the teacher would probably have been directed to stop it.

Where are video tape monitors being discussed? Where did the teacher hit the parent with the trash can? I’m unfamiliar with your example.

By Long_time_teacher

April 8, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this

No one respects poor teachers…certainly not the good ones in the building. We resent those who make all of us look bad, and who pull us down..TRUST ME ON THIS.

However, I have taught my two teenage sons to be respectful to ALL PEOPLE..regardless of whether they are right or wrong. You are allowed to disagree with someone without resorting to disrespectful behavior.

Have my sons come across teachers who were despicable? Absolutely. And, I took action, as every parent has the right to do when there is a true misjustice.

The problem is that parents automatically assume their darling child is telling them the entire truth. Let’s face it folks, there’s three sides to every story: yours, mine, and the truth.

When my sons came home with their tales of woe, I dug deeper. Sometimes I sided with the teacher (usually), but there were other times, when I called to make an appointment to let the teacher explain him/herself.

That’s respect. I didn’t need to resort to name calling, and rude behavior. Children will mirror your behavior; if you are negative and make disparaging comments about the teacher, school, etc., your child will act on it. When you’re in the grocery store, badmothing the school, teacher, principal, or whatever, someone will hear it, and it will come back.

Accountability on all sides is wonderful. I can find objective, clear ways to hold my students accountable (hw done, classwork done)..but testing is not the answer. When you get children of wildly varying levels in a classroom (last year? 6 yr developmental difference in my elementary room..from readers on the Kdg level all the way to the 7th grade level)..it is difficult to hold everyone to the same standard. The cookie-cutter ideal does not work with children..we are not dealing with a ‘product!’ Moods, health, emotional and otherwise, play into their learning experience and impact the ability for a child to learn. Similarly, when a child comes to me with little background knowledge, it also makes it difficult.

I don’t mind being held accountable; however, I feel that I am being held more accountable for things I cannot control. After all, what are the parents doing with those darlings the other 17 hours THEY have them?

By JP

April 8, 2005 03:45 PM | Link to this

My wife left her job as a High School teacher for this very reason. The emotional abuse dealt by teens today has gone unchecked. Kids today are out of control in the classroom. It’s no wonder America lacks good teachers.

By C.Mann

April 8, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this

I am a mother of 3, and when I conference with my children’s teachers I let them know from the get-go that I will never allow my children to be disrespectful to them. I appreciate the work teachers do for our community, and I show that appreciation by supporting them 100%. More parents should support teachers, after all, they see our children as much as we parents do!

By C.R.H.

April 8, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this

I like the idea of cameras in my classroom, as long as it has sound too! I would love to use it to show the parents what their little darling has been doing in my class. Talk about embarassing. They should also put them in the bathrooms where those little angels go to have sex and deal drugs (because they know we can’t bust into a stall…privacy!). And I think we should have a TV show…”America’s Funnniest School Videos” to show what an easy job it is to work in schools today. SPECIAL NOTE TO SOME PARENTS - if you REALLY knew what your kids did at school, you would be too embarassed to show your face in public.

By David

April 11, 2005 09:16 AM | Link to this

let’s face it…a child pretty much has developed his personality by age 5..if you don’t start from the cradle with teaching respect then you will not be able to backtrack and teach it when these kids reach middle school..bottom line, i have said this before, EDUCATION IS NOT FOR EVERYONE…many of these kids will be left behind because they choose to…administrators should bite the bullet and SHIP THESE KIDS OUT..i am a teacher in a middle school…i resigned last week after 19 years…i have had a kid in my class (in-school suspension) for the last 3 weeks because he is waiting on his hearing for marijuana possession at school…his mom keeps postponing the hearing because “she just can’t make it on that day”….this is what teachers in many metro schools are dealing with…i have a LAX administrator ….there is an overwhelming concern for “NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND AND AYP”…MEANING: WE NEED TO NOT HAVE A HIGH ABSENTEE RATE…i say BULL——!!!….education is not for everyone…get them out of the school…more children are being left behind because the ones “sitting on the fence” look up to the ones who stay in trouble….THAT’S A FACT…THESE KIDS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN THE HARD WAY, BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT TAUGHT FROM BIRTH TO RESPECT AUTHORITY…I AM RESIGNING BECAUSE I AM BURNED OUT…i cannot continue to be beat down by the attitude of these kids and the weak administrators who don’t have the balls to say GET OUT AND DON’T COME BACK!!! folks it is not that difficult to do…

By an English teacher

April 11, 2005 09:58 AM | Link to this

Blaine,

In spite of your high IQ, you misspelled “misspell.” I felt certain you would want to know since proper vocabulary usage seems to be a criterion for respect.

By an English teacher

April 11, 2005 10:00 AM | Link to this

Blaine,

My apologies. The misspeller is Captain Louie. I must have taken too much Prozac this morning.

By David

April 11, 2005 10:07 AM | Link to this

chalk one up for the english teacher…that is why it takes me 15 minutes to write a response…i have Websters on my desk here at school…i make sure i don’t put my foot in my mouth when it comes to spelling…lol…

By CD

April 11, 2005 10:20 AM | Link to this

$10 says the turd in your class is ms. rogers’ kid.

By Capt. Louie

April 11, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this

Devil’s Adv.: First, I never said I would tell my son to respect such a teacher. But if you don’t know, and your son is loathe to expose it, (and his friend), then…

I didn’t mention any methodology. I think that administrators, teachers and students should be monitored. School admins & teachers need the ability to remove problem children. (Due process, of course) Parents need a place they can go to with school problems that is independant of the school system. I know it is what the elected school boards were designed for, but they get too entangled to be of any real help. (Another area where ethics reform is overdue.)

I DID ask the principal to look into the teacher’s rule. I even had the backing of three other students. No dice. He looked us straight into our faces, and told us that if we had a problem obeying rules, then WE were the problem. He then launched into a speech about the woeful state of affairs when ungrateful children had the absolute GALL to question a teacher who sacrifices her daily life to teach us, and he would consider suspending us for being so arrogant. Our parents were equally admonished, and the superintendant refused to return phone calls about it. I guess you never went to a school where teachers did no wrong. That must have been nice.
The trash can incident happened Oct 2004 in Macon. (My apologies, I re-read the article from last year, the teacher did not hit the parent with a trash can, she hit the parent from behind with a chair, and then proceeded to beat her so badly the parent wound up in the hospital. The parent’s child went up to the teacher to get her to stop, and the teacher pulled the childs hair, and punched her, too.)
Video cameras have been discussed from time to time in a lot of systems, but ususally never get past the suggestion phase, because of teacher’s unions quashing the notion. Yes, I agree about the three sides thing. It’s why I wish there were video of incidents. I had a stepson suspended for spraying perfume, and eight children around him (only one a good friend of his) said someone else did it. But the teacher, who begrudgingly admitted she did not actually see him do it, said that she just felt like it was his “handiwork”. The student who DID do it? Teacher says, “I don’t believe he is capable of that.” Principal? “Well, I have to trust the teacher’s judgment, if I go against her, it will look bad.” Superintendant? “You people need to deal with the principal, I don’t have time to micro-manage the whole system.” School Board? Refused to “interfere”. Now, ask my stepson or the other eight witnesses to respect this teacher. It will never happen. I did tell my kid that even after he went back to school, he was required to still show that teacher’s position respect.
Before any one says otherwise, I’m not just dumping on teachers. I fully agree that there are kids who cause problems. Remember, too, it emboldens the borderline ones to see that nothing happens to the flagrant ones. With the drug example above, what deterrent effect is there for any other child in the same situation? There should be a hearing set, and the mother brought in, if need be, in cuffs.

Good point too, about the classroom differences in ability. From my own, and my youngest’s experience, I fully believe that every child should be tested at the end of each school year, and placed in whatever necessary classes the next. School admins need to stop holding children back because of age. They worry that older kids will “pick on” the younger ones, which indicates they can’t or won’t control bullying.

By David

April 11, 2005 10:36 AM | Link to this

UH….how ‘bout $100.00 (my next paycheck)…..you’re close cd….i would venture to say about 70% of the parents here are like that….they just don’t see that they’re doing their own children a diservice….(so are some of the administrators)….and i will venture to say that there are teachers who are not doing their jobs….however, i am witness to alot of great teachers who cannot get the job done because of parents and administrators who get in the way….it is bad enough when a parent cannot support a legitimate complaint about their kid…it’s REALLY a slap in the face when an administrator doesn’t back the teacher….ESPECIALLY IN FRONT OF THE PARENT AND/OR KID…..

By Ron

April 11, 2005 10:40 AM | Link to this

Captain Louie is a perfect example of the type of parent who immediately assumes the school is at fault. Notice, he provides no concrete examples of the misbehavior of teachers. This is called “misdirection.� When confronted with your errors, mention someone else’s’.

Notice, he immediately assumes his IQ is higher than the teachers. When there is disagreement, assume the higher IQ has the right answer. How’s that again?

Notice, he claims that respect for elders (teachers) must be earned (by the students). Sorry, my three degrees, gray hair, and success in the private sector trumps your 16 years of respect given to you by your parents before it was earned.

Notice he has “issues� with teachers from when he was in school. Gee, I wonder why?

As we science teachers say, “the acorn never falls very far from the tree.� If I were a betting man, I would bet there is a discipline file on his kids at their school.

By Capt. Louie

April 11, 2005 10:45 AM | Link to this

Great shades of sackcloth and ashes!!! My apologies for a single dropped S from a word. Did you find any other examples to discredit me?

Yes, I feel that if you are going to teach a thing, you must be able to do that thing.

By chuck

April 11, 2005 10:48 AM | Link to this

I have a hard time believing that the story coming out of the U.K. is a surprise. Europe started the liberal bandwagon in education. We in the U.S. have just recently gotten on board. The problems in education are directly related to our acceptance of the namby pamby, proponents of permissiveness throughout our society and culture. We should try to “understand” these poor innocent darlings who constantly disrupt our classes and think they can do whatever they want to do.

As a teacher of 8th graders, I can tell you that by the time students have been appeased for 9-10 years by their parents, teachers, administrators and society in general, they are absolutely no good to anyone, including themselves. They quickly become a drain on the school and on society as a whole. Children need consistent, fair discipline. Anyone who tells you otherwise, does not care about children at all. It starts when they are young and parents do what is convenient rather than what is right. Dads especially, think it is “cute” when little junior comes back with a wise crack answer to an adult. They reward this kind of behavior with positive attention and it grows. By the time these kids get to 8th grade they are incorrigible. Early in the school year I identify those students who have been brought up to think this way and I let them know as part of the group and individually as necessary, that all 138 of my students deserve an equal amount of attention from me. I tell them that if they need additional attention from me, it will be given outside of class. They are welcome to come to me before and after school for extra help or just to talk, but they are not going to take time away from the other students in my class. If they choose to continue inappropriate behavior, they will have to get their additional attention from someone else through detention, ISS or Saturday School…and I send them out. I don’t play favorites and everybody gets the same treatment.

I grew up in a system that rewarded students based on who their parents were rather than on performance. I vowed never to allow that to happen in my classroom. I’m not perfect, but I am Consistent AND Fair. I know in my heart that I am doing the right thing and therefore, I can go home and sleep at night with a clear conscience.

It gets old sometimes being the old fuddy duddy. It would be easier to appease these students and allow them to play all of the time. I just can’t operate that way. We should NOT lower our expectations because “times have changed.” If anything, we should raise our expectations. Never before has there been a time when information was more easily available. Technology puts the world at our fingertips. It is incumbent upon us as educators and as ADULTS, to clearly spell out our expectations and consistently and fairly provide the discipline necessary for our students to be able to meet those expectations.

By jack

April 11, 2005 11:09 AM | Link to this

David I fell like what you said may the bigest problem in education today. Lack of teacher support from the administrators. There have been times that I have written students up for their behavior only to have them come back to class the next day because mom felt I was picking on their little angel. Never mind the fact that their little angel was a rude disrespectful little *itch who constantly disrupted class. Turns out she was just a younger version of mom. The biggest problem with this is not that one childs but all of the other children, they see this happening and they fell like they can get away with the same behavior.

By Ron

April 11, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this

Yep, I was right. His kid has a file.

Next bet: It’s thick. Captain Louie doesn’t seem to be the type of guy who would train his kid to just “show up a teacher” once. As I said; I perfect example of a problem parent producing a problem kid. Even if it’s a stepkid. It doesn’t take long to convince a kid that his elders are stupid and ignorant does it, Capt. Louie?

By Capt. Louie

April 11, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

Ron, I gave you two. I can give you more. You also make an ignorant, prejudiced, and dead wrong, assumption that my school file is rife with disciplinary actions. Is this an example of the assumptions you make of students?

In his case, my stepson had not had ANY blemishes on his record at all. My daughter has none. My youngest has only two minor ones, both of which he was punished for at home, as well as at school.

I don’t agree with a lot of the laws we have, but I follow them. I and my peers made an intelligent, mature attempt to have an incompetent teacher dealt with, and were rebuffed. Had you been my principal, Ron, what would you have done? Would you have dismissed us as insubordinate, or would you have investigated?

I support teachers, and the school system. I do not assume they are automatically at fault. That’s another ignorant assumption for you. I also do not automatically assume they are right, either, which is what you seem to want. Are you never wrong, Ron? Have you NEVER had to retract a decision/judgment/ opinion? Question is, would you have the self-respect to retract a bad call? What an awesome burden yours must be to maintain absolute infallibility.

Nothing in my post said my IQ was higher than any teacher’s with whom I dealt. I thought it a few times, when they demonstrated a low intelligence level. You have earned my respect first for achieving a respectable position, but continued, and personal, respect must be earned.

Ron, do your degrees and hair color make you above reproach or question? Success doesn’t entitle respect, either. Prisons are full of people with multiple degrees, gray hair, and private sector personal success. Do those people have your unquestioned respect?

By David

April 11, 2005 11:51 AM | Link to this

ok…ok….listen, i have a daughter who has NEVER been in trouble (that i know of)…has a 4.0, spent 6 weeks at Boston University Tanglewood Music Institute before her senior year in high school, has been accepted to 6 universities and will start at UGA this fall….do you think i believe everything she tells me…?????HELL NO…that is the bottom line here….if parents would just keep it in the back of their minds that their kids are not ALWAYS angels the result would be better kids….which will result in better schools….i don’t know about where the rest of you teach or send your kids…but the problem here is misguided parents and misguided administrators which sends the signal to the parents and TEACHERS that they can run the school….i’m outta here…THANKS FOR THE COMMENT JACK…that is why i no longer issue a write up on a student who misbehaves in ISS…you would think ISS would be the last straw….but you know what???i write a kid up in here…you know what happens…AN EXTRA DAY IN ISS…LOL…I’M LAUGHING MY A* OFF RIGHT NOW…I DON’T WANT THEM ANOTHER DAY…LOL…TAKE CARE, D

By Vic

April 11, 2005 11:54 AM | Link to this

Capt. Louie, What about “self-respect”? I wonder if your child would disrespect a police officer who he thought was wrong for giving him a traffic citation? You should be careful with that egocentric mind-set. However, I do agree with cameras in the classroom. It may just help solve a lot of these problems, those caused by teachers and students. And David, once again you are right. Get them out of the classroom. Compulsory education is at the heart of the problem. The academic setting is not for everyone. So, if we keep the compulsory education laws, then we should have “apprenticeship(sp)/internship programs” as early as 8th grade to allow them to make a salary and pay taxes. Japan has a similar system. Then the students who show up willing and ready to learn can do so without all the disruptions and the teachers can teach.

By Ron

April 11, 2005 12:00 PM | Link to this

Dear Capt. Louie,

In order:

1) I never claimed you were ignorant. You are now claiming me ignorant. That, along with your claim of high IQ provides 2 point on a graph. A line can then be traced to predict you. And before you go off half-cocked again, no, it’s not proof. It does, however, lead me to believe you are a person who assumes they know everything. You need to take a strong look at what, and how, you are teaching your child/stepchildren. I can almost hear you say to your kid: “Now Johnny, your teacher is totally wrong, but you have to show her respect or you will get into more trouble.â€? I can almost guarantee you did not say, “Now Johnny, I know you were not the one who did etc.etc.etc., but when you hang around with the type of people who do those things, this is going to happen. You know that “when you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas don’t you. Now take your punishment like a man.â€?

2) You have a problem with authority. It is obvious to anyone who simply reads your postings. Your children easily pick it up by simply being around you.

3) I never claimed infallibility. You did for me. Another case of “misdirection.�

4) I never claimed that you should automatically respect me. Another case of “misdirection.� When confronted by what you do not like, change the subject to what you want to talk about. I was discussing your contention that I should respect a child in my class. I still belong to the generation that understands the military: Respect goes up; regards go down. They have to earn my respect. I’ve already earned mine. Children should always give respect to elders.

4) No Captain Louie, prisons are full of people who showed no respect for society. They are full of people who dropped out of high school, they are full of people who believe the world owes them a living, and they are full of people who can’t learn to get along. There are only a very, very, few smart degreed people in prison. Most of them are successful businesspeople.

By Capt. Louie

April 11, 2005 12:21 PM | Link to this

Ron, I didn’t claim you said I was ignorant. I didn’t say you were ignorant, I said you made some ignorant assumptions. There is a difference. Man, you even somehow think that simply because I recognize that I am very intelligent, that I will always be right.

I do not have a problem with authority. I have a problem with people who are unfit to be in it. No, I don’t know everything. It is one of the things I remind myself of almost every morning.

I ASKED you whether you felt infallible. Your smug commentary made me feel that you do think so. I notice you didn’t respond to my questions, either, which dealt with that.

Do the gray-haired, degreed people in prison have your respect?

You know, it doesn’t take long when the elder does such an outstanding job of doing the convincing, without a single word from me. Your assumptions about me and my children’s records, and thier behavioral tendencies, does a fine job of doing just that. It is an ignorant, prejudiced assumption that nothing I have said would lead most people to believe.

To this day, my children do not know that I ever had a single issue with a teacher. When they ask how the wife and I did in school, we tell them fine, but that their academic and personal performance is for themselves to determine.

I always remind my children that the teachers are in charge, that the rules are to be followed, and that if they have a problem with a rule, to obey it anyway. They are permitted to discuss it with me and/or mom, and if we feel it is damaging or hurtful to them, WE would ask the school to review it. Same as with a bad teacher. Talk to US first. Let the parents approach the school. Do you teach your children that every rule they come across is good, and unquestionable?

There’s nothing wrong with that. I will defend that to anyone. My children are decent people who are also being taught to think independently, and to never assume anyone, including themselves, is always right OR wrong.

Ron, do you wave your hair color and degrees around at the beginning or each semester to get respect, or do you get it by being good at your subject(s) and being a good teacher?

MOST of the teachers I had were the latter. A few were the former. In either case, the degrees or hair they may have had were meaningless. I will apologize to those who thought that I painted every teacher I ever saw with the same brush. I don’t. I stand in awe of a person who, in the face of the state of affairs (and pay scale), now, actually heads for college with the intent to walk out a teacher. I do honestly feel sorry for those who tried, and due to overwhelming pressue and lack of support, have to go into the private sector. I agree that there are a few idiots on both sides of the lectern who are discoloring the entire scene. My original point was that these are the ones who need to be held in check. Ron, have you NEVER met a colleague, who, even though degrees and hair seemed indicate they were as fabulous as you, you just felt like they really did not need to be teaching, either because lack of grasp of the subject, inability to teach, or personal incompetence?

By T.R.

April 11, 2005 12:34 PM | Link to this

This discussion has been very interesting to me, even though I am not a teacher. I’m no expert by any means but it seems that we’ve entered a time in which parents want to be their child’s best friend than their parent. So discipline goes out the window in the rush to make sure Junior is “happy” at all times.

I totally agree with those that have pointed out that unless the school administrators put teeth into how rules are administered, the teacher has no hope of being able to control the students. If Junior acts up and a teacher sends him to a principal who does nothing or just laughs it off, Junior knows he can do whatever he wants. Rules with no consequences are no rules at all.

Unfortunately, most school boards are so afraid of being sued they give in to parental pressure at the drop of the hat. Suzie flunked her final exams and won’t graduate? Oh no! That’ll ruin her psyche for life. Can’t she retake the exams so she can walk in the graduation ceremonies? Jimmy plagiarized his research paper? No, he didn’t do that. Jimmy wouldn’t cheat. He’s our son, he wouldn’t do that! That teacher’s crazy!

I know that not all kids/parents are bad and not all teachers are perfect. But frankly I’m tired of parents who do their children a disservice by not setting boundaries and teaching respect. It makes it that much harder for the good kids who do follow the rules and the teachers who are giving their all to do their jobs.

My hat is off to today’s teachers. They all deserve combat pay.

By lisa smith

April 11, 2005 12:45 PM | Link to this

The increased violence is coming from the violent video games. Its one thing to watch violence and another thing to participate in the violence. Im suprised no one has ever spoken on this before. I cant believe woman are actually buying these games for their sons.

By Capt. Louie

April 11, 2005 12:57 PM | Link to this

Lisa, you have to also include violent and hateful music lyrics.

People argue that the games and music don’t directly cause the acts, but they create a culture that inures kids to violence, drugs, gangs, and other crime, and that culture encourages that behavior.

People need to have a better look at some of the literature kids a reading, and so-called “cartoons.” Don’t get me wrong, I see nothing bad about Bugs Bunny, any kid can tell the difference between silliness and some of the new slash and burn/ beat-everybody-up “action cartoons”.

By T. R.

April 11, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this

Dear Miss Smith,

I’m usually very polite on these boards, but I cannot refrain from commenting on your post.

It’s stupid.

Poor behavior and violence in schools goes hand in hand with poverty. With poverty you get less parental involvement, increased exposure to substance abuse, and a general lack of positive influences and opportunities.

AND a decreased ability to spend $300 on said video games.

By Sue

April 11, 2005 01:07 PM | Link to this

Capt. Louie, thier parents,thier attitude, thier cronies….??? and you’re linking ability to spell with earning respect? Shame on you Louie….I hope you never misspell their again.

By Nettie

April 11, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this

Our school system is doing the best they can with what they have to work with. It is the parent responible to train their children on how to act, it is not the school job to do that. The school is to teach Math, Reading and etc. But how to conduct yourself is the parent job not the school. We as parents are told to train our children , that come from home. So don’t blame the schools, parents need to do their part.

By Vic

April 11, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this

TR, I respect your opinion, but I disagree. Poverty may be a common denominator for some, but it is not the cause of poor behavior and violence in our schools. In fact, some of the violent behavior is initiated by students from middle-class and some affluent families (Columbine). In fact, my experience has been that some of the students from poor families are better behaved than the brats from middle-class families who tend to get everything they whine for. Also, the “rich kids” have the money to buy drugs and such. This tends to be under-reported because of the status of their parents in society. They also have the advantage of getting the appropriate help and treatment needed. Not to criticize your opinion, I just have a different point of view. And that reminds me!? Guys, can we please stop the insults, personal attacks and character assaults, and offer more solutions to these problems? Just a thought.

By David

April 11, 2005 01:36 PM | Link to this

The major problem i see with parents and their children is this: many parents really do not know their role…they want to be “friends” or a “buddy” to their children…you can not be buddies with your kids and be a successful parent…i see many parents wanting to be “liked” by their children…BIG MISTAKE…I loved my parents but Did Not like them because they rode me pretty hard….i despised them at times….they were not my “buddies”…they were my parents…and people, let me say this…ALL of these kids are (in the back of their minds) begging for rules and discipline….i promise you, start the tough love at an early age and one day you will be a proud parent of a successful child…if you were not parented that way…then BREAK the TRADITION and start…

By David

April 11, 2005 02:05 PM | Link to this

TR i agree somewhat with your poverty comment…vic i agree with you more…i would really rather teach a kid from poverty than a rich kid who gets everything he wants…many people equate rich parents with being good parents…WRONG….so vic you are right…as to the poverty comment…well first let me say this to ms. smith and capt. louie…you are right also…lyrics and videos do play a part…i took up a “rap book” last week from 3 kids who were making up lyrics which contained references to gangs, murder, and killing of cops….of course i turned it in…but what they see and listen to does play a part…and TR….IS IT POVERTY THAT CREATES PARENTS THAT DON’T GIVE A DAMN OR IS IT THAT BAD PARENTING CREATES POVERTY AND FUTURE POVERTY…???SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT EH???

By Capt. Louie

April 11, 2005 02:42 PM | Link to this

Sue, I tied it to a TEACHER’S respect.

Would you be as forgiving if your kid’s Language Arts teachers writes THIER instead of THEIR?

I’m a Computer Consultant & Network Administrator. Call me out when I write LAN when I should have wrote WAN, or Binary when Hexadecimal was correct, or miscalculate Gigabytes or the cost of setting up a network in your building, or tell you that the main board is bad when it’s just the CMOS. Call me when I put Cat3 Std in a path that required Cat5e Plenum.

I had a plumber write me an estimate for PCV pipe once, to route to my “septec” tank. I din’t buy it from him. Why? Because its Poly Vinyl Chloride, or PVC pipe that goes to my SEPTIC tank.

I tie my respect for YOU and your position based on your grasp of it, and your ability to perform it.

That original point was about a Language Arts Teacher who regularly wrote “Langauge” and “seperate”, math teachers who couldn’t seem to calculate a cube root, or an American Government teacher who wrote “Constatutoin” and “Gettiesberg Adress” and “STUDANTS must be QUITE during the exam.” on the blackboard. These were not isolated, one time incidents, either. I’m talking about a PATTERN of this sort of thing.

By David

April 11, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this

yeah it’s kind of like my principal on monday morning saying “this morning the national anthem will be SANG by”

By Sly

April 11, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this

Cap’t Louie - come up for air man. I doubt anyone really cares what you think because you’re arrogant (notice that is spelled correctly). It’s ok for a computer dork like you to make spelling errors anyway. Teacher stress - c’mon. There’s stress in every occupation. Deal with it. Or just go on welfare.

By Melissa

April 11, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this

I think there’s a fallacy in the statement “You have to earn respect to be respected” when used to excuse bad behavior towards teachers or school authority in general.

There’s no doubt that there is a full spectrum of teachers, from good to bad. But the position itself should command respect.

Bad teachers (i.e., bad pedagogues, not criminals) can and should be held to high academic and professional standards. Administrators should enforce those standards and provide opportunities for reform and further education. Parents should have a forum to discuss their concerns (public as well as private).

But I think that the position of teacher should be given de facto respect. If the channels for reform aren’t working, or if teacher training is a farce, working for positive change will only solidify the respect truly due to all parties.

I would love to see suggestions for helping so-called “bad” parents learn to parent better — do we need more community involvement at the adult education level? How do we stop the cycle of neglectful parent/abusive child? How can we avoid an “us v. them” mentality?

By Ian

April 12, 2005 08:15 AM | Link to this

It all comes down to the parents. Children go home today and do what they want. The parents don’t ask what they are doing or how they can help. We are such a self centered society. Watch a few television shows that include children and see how they act. Do they ever mention school or doing well in it. This all falls back on parents. The difference I see between students that achieve compared to the students I see fail is the parental support. We need polititians and leaders to get involved and motivate parents.

By chuck

April 12, 2005 08:43 AM | Link to this

Capt. Louie, Be careful using plumbers who can spell. This ability usually results in a marked increase in prices. Give me a plumber who can plumb and I’m happy.

T.R. Poverty is NOT an excuse for misbehavior. I grew up dirt poor, the son of a firefighter who worked 3 jobs to put food on the table for his wife and 5 kids. I had NO parental involvement with my educational life EXCEPT they made sure I knew they better not get a call from the school about me misbehaving. In fact neither of my parents graduated from high school. ALL 5 of their children did (eventually). 3 of us are teachers. I have 5 graduate degrees. Poverty is NOT A REASON…it is an excuse.

By David

April 12, 2005 08:53 AM | Link to this

amen to melissa on respect…the job should command respect ..period…i always respected my parents and they certainly ticked me off more times than one can imagine…i first heard the excuse “well the teacher “DISRESPECTED” my son or daughter” about 10 years ago…i’ve always wanted to counter with “since when has disrespect become a verb”…i don’t see it in websters….

By Rachel

April 12, 2005 09:22 AM | Link to this

Capt. Louie- Why do you feel the need to comment on everyone’s opinions? You are obviously very full of yourself and have no respect for others opinions. Nobody cares what your line of work is and how many big words you can spell correctly. You are probably just sitting there with a dictionary and a thesaraus. Let everyone have their own opinions without having you comment on them and trying to make them feel beneath you. Yes, I have an exceptional vocabulary but I do not feel the need to make it a point. You are trying to make others feel stupid for what??? Maybe because you are insecure with yourself??? Hmm..just a thought. Just let everyone have their opinions without your two cents. Why do we care what IQ you have. The others are not sitting here bragging about what IQ we have-all the big words we can pronunciate. The others are just sitting here expressing their opinions on the topic at hand. You clearly do not respect others much less your wife… who refers to their wife as ” the wife and I…. ” Come on I am sure your mom or whatever woman figure you had in your life taught you to introduce and speak of your loved ones-especially your wife- in a respectful and appropriate manner.

By Rachel

April 12, 2005 09:24 AM | Link to this

Capt. Louie- Why do you feel the need to comment on everyone’s opinion? You are obviously very full of yourself and have no respect for others opinions. Nobody cares what your line of work is and how many big words you can spell correctly. You are probably just sitting there with a dictionary and a thesaraus. Let everyone have their own opinions without having you comment on them and trying to make them feel beneath you. Yes, I-and others I am sure- have an exceptional vocabulary but I do not feel the need to make it a point. You are trying to make others feel stupid for what??? Maybe because you are insecure with yourself??? Hmm..just a thought. Just let everyone have their opinions without your two cents. Why do we care what IQ you have. The others are not sitting here bragging about what IQ they have-all the big words they can pronunciate. The others are just sitting here expressing their opinions on the topic at hand. You clearly do not respect others much less your wife… who refers to their wife as ” the wife and I…. ” Come on I am sure your mom or whatever woman figure you had in your life taught you to introduce and speak of your loved ones-especially your wife- in a respectful and appropriate manner.

By Bryan

April 12, 2005 09:35 AM | Link to this

Wow, you guys, give The Good Captain a break. He’s not arrogant. I’ve read his posts, and he never comes across like that. He says what even other teachers think. There are some teachers out there who really stink. I’ve had my students come up to me and say: Mr T, do you know that Mr. Smith can’t spell? These are not all high-IQ kids, either, these are average kids. Problem is, that teachers like this are known to everyone at a school.

Cap’n Louie is right- you should be able to do that thing that you want to get paid for. Language teachers should use proper grammar, math teachers should be able to calculate, and Western Civilization teachers should know Charlemagne from Charlie Manson, and spell them correctly.

I’ve worked with despotic instructors and administrators for whom any student opening his mouth other than to answer a question or praise his teacher is considered blasphemous and, as you seem to think, arrogant and rude. I still don’t understand why. I thank and apologize to my students when they say: “Mr T, you spelled that wrong.” Makes me a beter, more informed person. I, too feel like my kids should respect me. But I don’t feel that anything other than an initial deferential respect is automatic.

Some of you should spend some time actually considering his points, rather than making smug, immature, and outright nasty comments about his and his kid’s discipline records.

It’s not a crime to realize that someone in authority doesn’t belong there. It also doesn’t automatically indicate a “problem with authority”. It really doesn’t take a high IQ to realize that if a teacher writes “STUDANTS must be QUITE”… on the board, he or she should probably consider a different line of work. I’m not only a teacher, I’m a parent, also. Six children. All of them either in or graduated from college now.

By T.R.

April 12, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this

I would like to point out that I am NOT the “T. R.” who made the poverty comment. You will notice that person puts a space between their initials. Just wanted to be clear.

By Capt Louie

April 12, 2005 10:13 AM | Link to this

Miss Rachel, first, “the wife and I” isn’t inappropriate or disrespectful. If you are/were married, would you consider your husband referring to you as “wife” disrespectful? Or are you hung up on The wife vs My wife? I use The instead of MY because she isn’t MY property. She actually uses The Spouse for me, and I am not insulted one bit.

And I carefully consider and respect other people’s opinions. You should have pointed that criticism at people like Ron, Sue and Sly, who go on record here as not respecting an opinion. If my use of a word you do not understand makes you feel stupid, that is your problem, not mine. I’ll apologize to anyone who felt slighted simply because I said high IQ. It was part of my point. I never said I was the only one who noticed, either, most of my peers did, but a few of us were bothered by it.

And Sly, I am not a dork. That is a childish insult.

If I learn that Lincoln gave the “Gettiesberg Adress” from my high school teacher, and I go to Western Civ class in college, and write that exact answer, it will be marked WRONG.

Thanks, Bryan, for a teacher’s thoughtful perspective. Tell us, are incorrectly spelled answers wrong in your class? What do you teach?

By Bryan

April 12, 2005 11:01 AM | Link to this

I have taught for 22 yrs. I Mastered in both Science and History, and have taught one or both, in both high schools and colleges. I am now teaching Science in high school.

In my high school classes, incorrect spelling is half an incorrect answer. I give half credit for knowing the concept, if not the exact spelling. In my college classes, misspelled was completely wrong.

In my early days, I was ridiculed by my elder colleagues for even giving half-credit. Are none of you old enough to remember those days?

And Rachel, the wonderful lady to whom I am married read your post and asked how in the world you could have construed “the wife and I” as disrespectful.

To both Rachel and Sly, Antoinette and I both as teachers and parents highly value The Captain’s opinions. This kind of “shut up and sit down if you don’t agree with me, or said something I don’t understand” attitude is itself dangerous and harmful to a good education. Interestingly enough, it is what Cap’n Louie’s first posts were trying to expose in the school system itself. I wonder, Rachel, if you are that no-compare teacher he described.

By George M

April 12, 2005 11:31 AM | Link to this

First, Captain Louie, mentioning your intelligence is intimidating. Showing it can be even more so. I think you could have made the point to notice incompetence without saying high IQ.

Bryan’s elder colleagues sound like most of my high-school teachers in the mid-70’s. Spelled wrong is all wrong. One told me if you cannot handle the words, you cannot handle the concepts. Same for plumbers, mechanics, computer pros, doctors, whatever.

I am a parent of four, three of whom are still in college, one with new twins of her own, and Sylvia and I value Captain Louie’s points, (if not part of the presentation). We have both been disappointed at the lack of basic English usage/spelling skills of some of our kid’s teachers.

By David

April 12, 2005 11:34 AM | Link to this

OK let’s change the subject a minute…headlines on AJC metro section…Clayton County Schools To USE Metal Detectors….this was after the teacher was beaten at Forest Park High and a racial brawl at a middle school…one parent has already come forward and expressed her concerns that the students civil rights may be violated….(if the searches are not consistent and fair)….OK folks…any opinions???

By Sue

April 12, 2005 12:38 PM | Link to this

Louie…..I’m generally unforgiving of anyone who uses “thier” for “their”, since I consider this one of the basics that everyone should know, especially those who communicate in writing. If I should happen to make a mistake such as this, I hope someone will enlighten me.

I agree with Chuck about the plumber…. I don’t care if he/she can spell as long as the job is done well.

I am curious about “math teachers who couldn’t seem to calculate a cube root”. Now you’re treading on my turf….I have two advanced degrees in Mathematics Education (MED and EDS) and taught 20 years in the metro Atlanta area before moving out-of-state. Where are these math teachers who can’t “calculate a cube root”? While we expect students in geometry to know some of the basic perfect cubes (8, 27, 64, and 125) and their roots, most people would use a calculator to “calculate” the cube root….. unless you are referring to the two imaginary roots instead of the principal root….then the quadratic formula would be appropriate. This would be at least Algebra II, and certainly anyone teaching at this level should be certified in mathematics and could easily do this procedure.

Getting back to the discipline problem in the schools…..I worked one semester in a high school after moving, but I knew I would resign after one month. During the semester that I was at the high school, I wrote over 100 disciplinary referrals (really should have been more), and was knocked to the floor by a student as he tried to leave the room. I guess I had not seen the true picture of today’s schools until this experience, since I had previously taught at a highly academic school in an affluent area. These students were a bit talkative at times, but were generally well-behaved and polite. Unfortunately, I’m afraid my latter experience is getting to be the norm. Add to this lunch duty twice a week, hall duty between every class, with no time for restroom breaks or to set up for the next class……Yet, one parent really came down on me because I refused to let her daughter and the daughter’s friend go to the restroom after they announced to the class loudly, “I’ve got to pee!” They continued to disrupt the class with their insistence and threats to “tell my mother”…..Yes, the mother called and accused me of “child abuse” because I refused to let them go. It did not seem to matter to her that they had stood in the hall with their boyfriends between class (remember, I had hall duty) and didn’t bother to go. The mother’s comment was “Maybe they didn’t need to go then.” Incidentally, two other teachers (math and Spanish) walked after one semester.

I now teach at a community college, less pay, but NO STRESS! I love it.

By David

April 12, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this

sue, where were you for that semester if i may ask???d

By SD

April 12, 2005 04:33 PM | Link to this

Opinions are like —- noses, everyone has one and they are all a little different! No matter how you state it, kids today do not have the respect they should for their elders. You can disagree with someone without being disrespectful. I too had bad teachers through the years, but I never was disrespectful to them – ever. I would have had to pick my head up off of the floor after one of my parents knocked it off for me. I knew they would, so I behaved in a manner that was expected of me.

Today, I still expect that same level of respect from my children, ages 10 and 13. I do not beat my children, I don’t have to, and they know how to act. When they were younger, they did get a spanking when needed. My oldest is grounded for the rest of the school year, (and unable to play football) because he made two Fs on his last report card. His teachers tell me that he is always most respectful to them but his is not turning in his work. If he has to repeat this grade next year for his inability to produce work I know he is capable of, so be it. He knew the consequences at the mid year point of the school year. I even offered to help him myself or get a tutor, he told me he didn’t want or need one. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. He is now learning that lesson.

I see nothing wrong with cameras in the class room. I think that is a wonderful idea! It would prove who was telling the truth on a day to day basis. I also see nothing wrong with paddling a child that has misbehaved. I would want to be present in the principal’s office during said paddling. It would show my child and the school that I support the action and reaction concept. I believe society has moved too far to the left, it’s time for another adjustment. That’s my opinion, if you don’t agree with it, tough, it’s my opinion. Look around you – the world isn’t a better place than it was 50 years ago. But I do love air conditioning!

By Kerry V

April 13, 2005 10:47 AM | Link to this

I am in my 13th year as a professional educator, but my 1st in the south-metro system where I now teach. I resigned my previous position at the end of the last school year, after four (4) years there (all at the same school). The problems within that system had become so bad that I no longer felt that I could be effective there, so I applied for a position in another county - one whose school system had a reputation for having a better work environment in its schools. Unfortunately, the move has not been everything that I hoped that it would be. Please don’t misunderstand; not everything about my move has been bad. I work with some wonderful colleagues, our administrators are supportive (most of the time, at least), and the facility in which I teach is maintained at as high a level as I have ever seen. Unfortunately, none of those things alter the fact that the vast majority of the students with whom I work on a day-to-day basis are lazy, rude, and completely self-centered. Despite my best efforts - which include an extremely lenient grading policy for homework and classwork and extra credit points available on every test - it appears that my “failure rate” (the percentage of students in my classes who fail for the semester) is going to be as high at the end of this semester as it has ever been in my teaching career. In case that you are thinking that this must be a case of someone who simply isn’t an effective classroom teacher, let me tell you that almost every other member of my department who teaches the same courses that I do has rates that are virtually identical to my own. (For those of you who are wondering, I teach math - Algebra 1 and Geometry, specifically.) The problem isn’t that the material is not being taught; it’s that the students aren’t doing what they are told that they have to do in order to succeed - and, what is even more to the point, their parents aren’t making them do it. The old saying is “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.” I just want to know when our elected officials are going to figure out that this sentiment applies to the educational process.

By Sue

April 14, 2005 09:29 AM | Link to this

Kerry…. I can vouch for everything you said….too bad about the decision that everyone must take Algebra I (even in two years)…..some kids just don’t reason in the abstract and see no reason to factor polynomials, etc. Therefore, they do nothing…..hoping for a gift grade. My failure rates in those classes were going sky-high. Then the kids do what they can to disrupt and entertain the class.

I am now teaching Developmental Algebra in community college to students who give me undivided attention, work all assigned problems, and have their questions ready when they come to class. What a joy!

By Sue

April 14, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this

David…..I’d prefer to keep it anonymous….they’re all over the country. Some of these demographics: southern state, college town with dual school systems (I was in the county)….a mix of rural and suburban students….to be fair, I must say that I was assigned to teach low level classes that no one else wanted to teach, since I was the new kid in the hall (experience and degrees didn’t count)….but there’s no question that the disciplinary problem was school wide….