Get Schooled

By C.R.H.

April 7, 2005 12:25 PM | Link to this

The EOCTs are coming too, even though we are a month from the END OF THE COURSE! I have 5 days to teach my kids everything there is to know about plants and animals. Not to mention some of my classes missed a week of instruction because I had to administer the GA high school graduation test! This test stuff is overkill, I don’t have time to teach because I have to keep testing!

By Shae

April 7, 2005 12:27 PM | Link to this

I have a sister who is in 8th grade this year and have had discussions about the tests. She says they go over the material but not at length. It is not like they have one class set aside like the SAT prep class some schools offer. It does put alot of unnecessary pressure on kids. I am not trying to make excuses for those who do not try but from experience with tests I am not good at taking them. Once I got to college I was more serious that I was in high school and figured it would be alot easier. I was more apt to studying and I study my butt off. But when those tests come.. especially finals I freeze. What about the kids that do that? I am not sure if I understand how the test works but I have heard that you can have an A in the class but fail the CRCT and be held back? If this is correct that seems a little unfair. I graduated in 2003 and was so nervous they would put that on us… but then again it is kind of like the graduation test. If you have good grades but fail a section you do not get a dilpoma. So I do not know if any serious test like that is the way to go. Unless the schools go over the certain tests more in depth. I have mixed feelings. I guess it just comes down to the kids. There is nothing we can do about except for make kids study harder and pay more attention.

By Shauna

April 7, 2005 12:34 PM | Link to this

In the private school that my daughter attends, they test every grade (even K-4) every year. That way, when the specific year comes up that the kids must pass they are used to taking a test like this. It has really helped the kids at our school. Because to them, it is just another test during yet another year. It might seem like overkill but it works.

Good luck to all the kids that have to take the test.

By Pam Walker

April 7, 2005 12:48 PM | Link to this

Beleive it or not, public schools test on a yearly basis as well. My objection is not to the CRCT itself, but to its “end-all” use. The State of Georgia, in its infinite wisdom, has educated and certified me to be a qualified teacher. They have further mandated the curriculum I must teach. I believe that my training and experience make me, the teacher in the classroom with the third grade student, the BEST judge of whether that child should be promoted to the fourth grade. NO ONE TEST should ever determine such an important decision. The CRCT could be used as a part of the overall decision in conjunction with performance in the classroom and teacher recommendation. It is absolutely ludicrous that one test has been designated as the gateway for four years of education at the hands of professional educators.

By Shae

April 7, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this

I agree. If my teachers would have given more “serious” tests all year then it would have helped, i’m sure. When I was in school we got so many “gimme” points on tests… such as extra credit or going to a play for school and getting bonus points. Kids got fixated on the fact they could just ask for extra credit. They would go over the GA high school grad. test but not completely. I still got in their and was baffled by so much I did not know or had not been taught. I got lucky by guessing.

I know it is a strssful time for students so just do your best and stay calm. Don’t freak out and take your time! Don’t over analyze the questions, it will only cunfuse you! Good luck!

By carol

April 7, 2005 12:59 PM | Link to this

I also do not see how one test should prove if that child makes it to the next grade or not. There is so much that should be intertwined with the over all decision. If you have good grades and then take the CRCT and do not do so good, that basically tells the child they are not good enough and all the studying they have done for their classes was a waist. I have a friend whose daughter has had to take the CRCT and she said that you could be the worst student all year-in terms of grades-but still pass that CRCT and go on. I think tests like this just show kids they can goof off all year and pass that test and be ok. It just isn’t saying much for those who do try hard and are A students as opposed to those who are D students and don’t try and pass. I don’t know. If this isn’t how the test goes please tell me!

By Shauna

April 7, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this

Pam,

Thanks for letting me know that about public schools. I was under the impression that only 3rd, 5th, and 8th graders take that test. Sorry for being so ignorant about the subject.

By Jennifer

April 7, 2005 01:21 PM | Link to this

Let me assure you that my third grader, now fifth grader, is feeling an enormous amount of pressure. She worries, cries, and loses sleep over the test.

When we moved to Atlanta five years ago she was a year behind her class in reading because her previous school in Illinois did not begin reading until first grade, and, in Atlanta, they began (at least) in kindergarten. Her reading skyrocketed and she became the top reader in her class which meant she was more sure of herself, but now she constantly doubts herself and her reading abilities by saying, “I don’t think I am good enough to pass the test.” She is a very bright little girl and for her to feel that way about herself really hurts me as her mother.

Each time we have had to deal with this ‘test’ I support her to the fullest extent and help her in any way that I can, but part of me is cursing it because of the added pressure it puts on the kids. Plus, I believe it sends a false message to kids when they aren’t required to pass other parts of the test in order to be promoted. They view it as ‘unimportant’ because it is not necessary for promotion, which is not the view we want them to have. All subjects are important.

But, really what I would like to see is president Bush’s ability to pass the test. Maybe my fifth grader could help him read his speeches a little better.

By Shae

April 7, 2005 01:35 PM | Link to this

I don’t have any kids yet but I can just imagine what the requirements will be when I do decide to and they reach school age. My sister and I was very close and it break my heart when she stresses over this test. She is an awesome student and she will tell you she is a great student. She has hopes of going to college out of state and studying marine biology..she takes french and has become practically fluent. I wish I had been as persistent in learning as she is! To hear her worry all the time and doubt herself makes me so ill that the government can do whatever they want, set any rules they want and we have to obide by them. Kids should go to school to be taught as well as possible. No wonder we have a hard time getting people to teach. Having these tests is like saying ” you may be the teacher but what you teach is not good enough so we will go over you and give our own tests to see if the kids will pass on to the next grade” My heart goes out to those that try their best!

By Shae

April 7, 2005 01:38 PM | Link to this

**Just wanted to apologize for the grammar errors I made! I am at work and having to type fast!

By Jennifer

April 7, 2005 02:12 PM | Link to this

It is extremely painful to see my daughter, Amber, in such a state where she is losing sleep and thinking less of herself. It took her a long time to believe in herself when we moved here and found out she was at the lower half of her class in reading. She worked her tail off and became a top reader, and now she is doubting herself again because she is concerned she will have to retake fifth grade if she does not do well enough on this ‘test’.

Teachers aren’t even allowed to teach anymore because they have to teach for the test and that’s about it. It’s very sad really. I spent a short time in the classroom back home as a teacher aide and I know first-hand what they go through in order to ensure each child is learning to the best of his/her ability, and to basically have to restructure their way of teaching in the classroom in order to teach for this test isn’t helping anyone.

I believe at one point there were good intentions behind the No Child Left Behind Act, but now only those who can afford private school are the ones not being left behind. If you are poor, or go to a poorer school you might as well forget it because they will remove funding, fire teachers, and close the school if that school does not meet requirements. I am not sure how anyone is being helped when schools are closed as that only places the burden on another facility because the students need somewhere to attend.

Also, there are students who take the test who aren’t fluent in English or who have been absent a lot of days throughout the year for whatever reason. This reflects on the school, too, and in turn looks as if the students and teachers just didn’t do well enough.

It is simply not right. Period. I understand your frustrations, Shae, as I do not understand how our government could do this either.

Btw, let me mention that the starting salary for a teacher in the town I am from in Illinois is under $20,000.

By jack

April 7, 2005 02:42 PM | Link to this

To all of the people out there complaining about the tests I have one thing to say. This is not the place to do it, start complaining to the people who can actually make the changes. These would be your congresional representatives at both the state and federal level. Remember this is still a republic ( not a democracy but thats another story) The people do ahve the ability to make changes.

By Shae

April 7, 2005 02:50 PM | Link to this

It is sad that teachers do not make enough. 20,000 is unreal. I know they make a little more and it shouldn’t matter as long as their happy in their profession but look how much they have to put up with. I admit I have seen teachers that do not care about kids but there are some that genuinely want to see kids succeed and to have them basically get slapped in the face by the government is heart breaking. I am only 20 and I may not have enough “life experience” under my belt but it just saddens me that so many good kids get so frustrated and worried. Society puts so much strain on our kids that they do not know what is right and what is wrong. Is it right to study your butt off all year in order to do good on the test or is it right to slack off all year and bust your butt in the months leading to the test? I believe strongly in education- I used to not in high school- I would do just enough to get by-but then I got to college and got married to someone who is in med. school and there are just so many more possibilites you can have with education and degrees,etc. it just seems to me that this way of testing will only discourage students to do their best year round. That they will get in the habit to just do enough to get by. Jennifer, I am sure your daughter will do great. You sound like a great mom who truly cares! She sounds like a great child!

By Shae

April 7, 2005 02:52 PM | Link to this

Jack-we are just responding to the question stated in the original heading. We are just venting to one another. We understand we can make a change. This obviously bothers alot of people and if we are to speak up I am sure we could get stuff done. We are just expressing to one another our concerns in this forum. I am not sure if you are being rude or not but this is just people venting about what urkes them.

By jack

April 7, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this

Not trying to be rude at all. I agree that this is an excellent forum to vent ones concerns. However it is not the forum to make changes. I agree that all of the testing has really hurt education. I am a classroom teacher myself and I have seen how education has simply become a means to teach to the test, even though everything that I was taught in college went against teaching to the test because it has been shown time and again to not be very effective. I believe what irks me the most is that when it is mentioned that we are simply teaching to the test administrators denie it vehamently (sp). As I stated earlier thought this is not the forum to make change. Its time for the teachers and parents to make a stand and tell the ones in power what works and what doesn’t

By rocky

April 7, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this

Congratulations to Jennifer for her ability to take a topic like school testing and somehow incorporate bashing our President into it. This isn’t a political blog, so get over yourself and stick to the topic. Sounds like your fifth grader could probably teach you a thing or two about how not to be so ignorant. No wonder she has self image problems. You probably put a lot of pressure on her.

I don’t understand why taking tests is such a big deal. If your kids are reading and are read to at home, there should be no reason why they can’t easily pass the reading portion of a test. All this anxiety is unnecessary and unhealthy for children. There’s no reason why they should have to cram for these tests if they stay current on their lessons and have parents who take the time to read to and with them.

By J.R.

April 7, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this

Yes the students have to take a lot of tests but that is the only way an outsider can know if a student has really learned the material. Unfortunately, inflated grades and social promotion have diluted the value of the high school diploma.

Students in GA (3rd, 5th & 8th) usually get the ITBS in the Fall and all (K-8th) get the CRCT in the spring. The ITBS gives an idea of how GA stacks up against other states since it’s nationally normed. The CRCT measures students progress from year to year within GA. The CRCT participation and passing is also used to measure schools as a whole and the schools AYP (adequate yearly progress). Teachers and administrators are also feeling the heat of this test!

Consider that a passing cut score is in reality around a 40% correct on the CRCT. This is not asking a lot of the students! A high school diploma is something earned by learning and working in school!

By Shauna

April 7, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this

Rocky,

First of all your comments to Jennifer were uncalled for. We are all just trying to find other avenues to help our children any way we can.

Do you have children? If you don’t then shut up!! If you do then you know that the teachers are the ones putting the pressure on the children. Along with this stupid Act. Then, add on the peer pressure that children have to face and you have a disaster waiting to happen. Parents on this blog only want what is right.

Jack, you are right! We should be complaining to our representatives and as soon as I post this, I’m calling mine. You never know, one day you may see me on the news screaming and hollering that things need to change.

By Devil's Advocate

April 7, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this

What measure of performance were taxpayers getting before standardized testing?

It may be stressful for teachers and students, but aren’t taxpayers entitled to expect some measurable outcome for the many they spend on education?

Why shouldn’t a student who will be given multiple chances to pass the text not be required to meet minimum standards to go to the next grade?

By sHAE

April 7, 2005 03:58 PM | Link to this

I agree the comments for Jennifer were ridiculous. The parents on this forum are obviously some of the ones that care. I am not a parent yet but am a 20 year old who is newly married and plans to start a family soon as well as I am the guardian to my 14 year old sister. Not only do my husband and I push her to do her best because she lives with 2 “young” adults but I see the importance of education. We all need to speak our minds whether it is at the PTA meeting or the BOE meeting or track down the represenatives and speak what we feel. But until then we all decide to come to this forum and say what is on our mind. I, as many other, feel that just speaking to others about this helps get things off of our minds. Don’t get ill with us for venting to one another… Stop reading what we right if it bothers you.

By C.R.H.

April 7, 2005 04:10 PM | Link to this

I don’t have a problem with having a test to hold schools accountable, I am a teacher. However, wouldn’t it be nice if there were a test to hold parents acountable as well. That comment was for the parents of the kids who come to my class daily without materials, not enough sleep, stoned or drunk, unfed, with the attitude that I owe them more than the opportumity to an education, or the ones that don’t show up at all! If the taxpayers want a test, give them a test…only 1, so I can spend the rest of my time teaching instead of repeatedly testing!

By crh

April 7, 2005 04:10 PM | Link to this

My US History students will take their EOCT on April 20 and 21. Yes I have skipped over and skimmed over topics in order they at least have a somewhat brief familiarity with the 1920’s, New Deal, World War Two, Cold War and Civil Rights Movement. School is not out until May 20. One email said do not blame the President but go and talk to those in charge. I did that to my dept. chair, asst. principal and principal. Their answer was the dates cannot be changed and deal with it. The other members of my dept. are at 1900. I hope my kids do well because I have done all that I can to prepare them for an EOCT that is given not at the end of the course but a full month before the end of school.

By Shauna

April 7, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this

C.H.R. - you are so right about the parents. I think that the state needs to hold the parents more responsible. Parents need to step up to the plate and play ball.

Good luck and God bless you for being a teacher. I went to college to become a teacher and I couldn’t hang with it. I admit that I can’t do it and I’m proud of myself for realizing it before I ruined someone’s childs’ life.

By Shooter

April 7, 2005 04:21 PM | Link to this

Rocky, I agree. Jennifer took a cheap shot at the president. However, testing is political - NCLB (introduced by our current president) judges yearly progress by scores achieved on certain tests. Thus a precedent has been set that schools must make progress to recieve federal funding. With enough public schools labelled as failing vouchers become a more credible and acceptable option. Very political, indeed.

Shauna, no need to say “shut up.” Please keep it civil.

By Jennifer

April 7, 2005 04:22 PM | Link to this

Rocky, you said it exactly, “you don’t understand”.

1) You don’t understand that it’s because of the No Child Left Behind Act that there are many, many children being left behind.

2) It is the test and what it stands for that is putting the pressure on kids. I only ask my own daughter to do her best and that is not too much to ask of any person.

3) Have you ever seen the test? Do you know what it’s about? I’m sure as an adult you could much better grasp the meanings of words and their concepts because you aren’t ten years old anymore. At ten I’m sure you, too, struggled with a subject or two.

4) I don’t think anyone mentioned cramming for a test. This isn’t a test that can be crammed for.

5) Did you know that the No Child Left Behind Act forces states to spend millions of dollars more than the federal government provides for test development and school reform?

6) Now go to your room and stay there until you can be nice to others.

By Devil Advocate

April 7, 2005 04:28 PM | Link to this

I think that the EOCT administration date should be pushed back in the Spring. There are weeks worth of difference in instructional time for the Econ. test depending on if it’s Spring or Fall semester.

Schools should do a better job administering the tests so kids don’t miss the same classes over and over. There’s a serious problem if you just lost four days to graduation testing in addition to losing the last month of school, since it’s after the test. (And maybe loss of other testing days to other EOCTs)

On the other hand, if you really can teach American History in 150+ days, why are the taxpayers buying 190 days worth of instruction? Maybe the basic level of competency that the taxpayers want high school graduates to show doesn’t really require the level of depth that teachers felt courses deserved.

Ultimately, a high stakes test does hold the students and parents accountable if the kids really are held back or flunk the high school class because of failing the test. Sure teachers look bad in the short run, but if we stick with the program year after year, parents who want their children to do well will have to buy in.

As far as the “if your not a parent, don’t comment� line of reasoning goes, many taxpayers, like myself, don’t have kids in public schools. We still pay for schools, and theoretically benefit or lose depending on the work and citizenship skills of the graduates of the schools. Often parents want what’s best for their child in the short term. Disinterested taxpayers may want what’s best for society in the long run.

By Jennifer

April 7, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this

One of the reasons that I’m homeschooling my kids is that I don’t want them to spend their classtime having someone “teach to the test.” They still have to have IOWA testing every three years, but they’re not faced with the myriad of additional tests mandated by the state and national governments. I value teachers and a traditional school environment, which is why we partner with a school two days a week for their instruction. Every school in which I’ve taught has been faced with the same struggles, and it’s sad that teachers are actually instructed to teach their skills-deficient students how to survive standardized tests instead of being able to use that time to give them the additional help that they need. At some point our society needs to view its teachers as professionals who are capable of meeting the educational needs of their particular students.

By Jennifer

April 7, 2005 05:01 PM | Link to this

Hey, two Jennifer’s. You weren’t born in the 70’s were you? hehe.

By Devil's Advocate

April 7, 2005 05:05 PM | Link to this

Jennifer,

What evidence do you have that teachers are/were capable of meeting the educational needs of their particular students?

A lot of us have an “if only” idea about education: “if only the teacher didn’t have to teach to the test,” “if only the kids respected authority and classroom discipline was good,” “if only kids could get the individual attention that they need,” “if only standards for all kids were higher.”

What evidence do we rely on for these opinions? What skills did you see kids mastering before testing came on to the scene? How do you know that the kids really got the skills?

By Jennifer

April 8, 2005 08:07 AM | Link to this

Devil’s Advocate:

I’m not opposed to all standardized testing, but I do believe it’s gotten out of control. I grew up with Stanford & IOWA, and both tests, in addition to teacher observation & feedback, were adequate tools to determine what level class we should be in & if were progressing on grade level. Now, it’s completely out of hand�more and more tests are being mandated, but none seem to be getting removed. There comes a point where you have too much data & waste too much time.

As for how I know it would work to treat our teachers like professionals & let them do their jobs? Well, I can tell you that based on my experience this massive testing environment is NOT working. Here are some of the things I’ve been told along the way:

We’ve turned into a culture of coddlers. We’re so concerned about not hurting little Johnny’s self esteem that lump everyone together so that no one is being taught at their level. Leveling classes is a good thing, and can be highly effective. From what I’ve seen, when the levels vanished from the school & it became AP, honors, and the rest, the ability to keep kids at or near grade level decreased.

By Jennifer

April 8, 2005 09:57 AM | Link to this

I am yet another Jennifer and yes I was born in the 70s! I am a teacher of 4th and 5th graders in a rural county (12th year). We are on a modified school calendar. We are doing the CRCT as we speak while most everyone else is still on spring break. I wanted to let everyone know what a day of testing is like. Keep in mind that this test lasts for 5 days straight. Students arrive at school as early as 7:00 (eager parents) or 7:20 first bus. We are offering free breakfast this week only. Students are sent to their rooms at 8:00. Teachers have already picked up their test materials from the adminstrator and are waiting to begin. After announcements, testing begins and last for 2 hours minimum. One section a day is taken starting with Reading and continuing through Social Studies. Each test is divided into two sections. The students are timed for one hour per section and can have up to 10 minutes extra. Each section is about 35 questions long. The reading is longer time wise due to the length of the passages the students must read. After each section, the students are given a break but are not allowed to talk. After the second section is completed in the same manner, the teacher must either immediately return the test to the administrator or lock them in a closet if there are make ups to be completed. We have taken it easy in the afternoons. As for teaching to the test, yes it is done but not like most think. We spend a lot of time on how to take tests such as ruling out answers you know are not correct and looking back to the passage to find the answer. These students are under a tremendous amount of pressure. They hear about the dreaded CRCT from day one and so do the teachers and adminstrators. The test is given very early in the spring, well before all material is covered and during the height of allergy season. I’m sure many understand how hard it is to get your brain working when you are “stuffed up”! We were also lucky enough to begin the test the week after our time change. It is unfair that school systems choose their own time to take the test in a given test window of about a month. We are going to be compared to school who take the test later in the Spring and have had more time to cover needed material. As a teacher, I do believe that there needs to be some sort of accountablity for schools. However we should not be expected to take a student who is on a grade level two or more years below current grade and have them on grade level by the Spring. I don’t have the answer. In my teaching career I have seen that things change rapidly! We tend to jump on the band wagon of whatever is new. Just remember that this to shall pass! (hopefully)

By Concerned Mom

April 8, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this

Our GA school district begins CRCT testing next week, three days after spring break, and finishes four weeks before the last day of school. The teachers have been rehearsing skills needed to pass the test and reinforcing best practice test taking with the students. Even good students are nervous. One teacher already told the class that they’ll take it easy in May. Why? That’s three weeks of potentially lost instruction time. Why not start preparing the students now for the next grade level? Is it because they have no incentive once the CRCT is over? There’s something really wrong with this test-centric system.

By cp

April 8, 2005 11:17 AM | Link to this

Jennifer #3, You have hit on it exactly! we should not be expected to take a student who is on a grade level two or more years below current grade and have them on grade level by the Spring

Why are these kids in your class to begin with?

By cp

April 8, 2005 11:49 AM | Link to this

What is the purpose of all these tests?

It seems to me that there are two goals: 1) reduce social promotion — which some on this blog seem to actually favor, because of age differences, and 2) measure the school against some standard — the idea being “You can’t improve what you can’t measure.” Lamar Alexandar

It has probably been overdone and poorly implemented, but does anyone disagree with the goals? How do we improve the public schools in GA? Or should we let them wither away from a mass exodus of good students?

By Jennifer

April 8, 2005 12:25 PM | Link to this

cp,

Ok, so you’re asking for what’d I’d ideally like to see happen? Here it is:

Ultimately, I want to see our teachers treated as professionals. They do not just get handed a degree—they have to earn it, and for the most part, they know what they’re doing. I’d like for us to, as a society, go back to trusting them to do it.

By JD

April 8, 2005 12:29 PM | Link to this

I agree with Concerned Mom. The kids are taking a test three days after spring break and a few weeks before the school year ends. And then next year they will spend three months with easy work trying to figure out what level the child is on, by then it is January and they begin concentrating on the CRCT test. Children are being overly tested without the test being helpful. They can easily tell if the child is on level if they test them in the begining of the school year and at the end.

My children are not stressed about the test since we continuously tell them the work they are getting is “baby” work and challenge them to do extra work.

By CH

April 8, 2005 12:41 PM | Link to this

The reason some schools are testing after the kids come back from spring breakis: The schools need money. And one way to get it is if the kids test scores are below the average. Because if anyone has any common sense would know not to test kids after any sort of break. I think parents need to wake up and start smelling the coffee, these kids are the future of this country. The school board can be replaced with people that have common sense. The school board has the power to change these test dates, but parents need to let them know this. If parents don’t then are kids will be going to school just so a teacher can say they have a job. Some need to start teaching and stop worrying about how much they are paid. Think about it teachers only work 190 max a year when the average Joe works 230 to 250 days a year. Do the math then tahnk a teacher. Have a nice day.

By devil's advocate

April 8, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this

Jennifer,

Thanks for answering my questions.

While I see testing as a way to expose the lie told by the school system that your kids were on grade level, you see it as a barrier to actually teaching the skills that they lack.

I tend to think that because nobody gets reelected to the school board on public office by telling voting parents that their kids are dumb, lazy, and lacking skills, schools are under pressure from above not to fail everyone who really can’t get grade level work done. You are more optimistic about what not having testing would do. You felt that you could drop your instruction down to meet the kids where they were and then pull them back up to grade level by the end of the year. I’m afraid that in many cases the teachers dropped the level of instuction and never brought it back up. I hope that testing, with well designed and administered tests, will force the “system” to get kids on grade level in the early grades, not promote the kids unless they are, and in several years time, your seventh and tenth graders would actually have 7th and 10th grade skills.

By cp

April 8, 2005 01:11 PM | Link to this

Jennifer, Thank you! I agree with you 100% — on every item. I would also add one, but since I’m not a teacher, what would you think about:

7) Find a way to measure each school’s performance, and empower the principal to assess which teachers are getting the job done and which are not. Then empower them to hand out merit bonusses and remove the bad ones. If the principals aren’t up to the job — get better principals. If the ratio of teachers to principals is too high — hire more assistant principals.

In other words, get the politicians out of the business of micro-managing the schools and incentivize the teachers and principals to do it instead.

By cp

April 8, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this

BTW. I think your #1 is the most important thing we could do for immediate gains in GA. Summer school for underperforming students. Gives them more instruction, and gives them a reason to work hard during the year. Great idea.

By Devil's Advocate

April 8, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this

CR,

What do you do for a living? What standards of performance are you under during the 250 days? What are the working conditions like?

Maybe teachers will see how hard the “real world” is. Or they’ll leave teaching and do your job.

By Lacy

April 8, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

So I’ll preface this by saying that I’m one of those random people who actually likes taking standardized tests. ITBS, CRCT, SAT, GRE, whatever, I dont mind.

Standardized testing is here to stay. Without it, you have no way of actually knowing what level your student is TRULY at. Don’t we all know people who graduated from a school with a 3.5 or better, but don’t know ANYTHING—they managed to take easy classes with easy teachers? The SAT and/or SAT and the higher level standardized exams (MCAT, GRE, LSAT, PRAXIS, etc) are absolutely necessary for schools to evaluate applicants.

Given that, it makes SENSE for children to get familiar with standardized testing from a young age. That way, they are prepared for future tests. Plus, more than just grades, standardized testing is a good measure for how well a school is educating their students and where improvements should be made.

There are obviously problems to testing. Test-taking anxiety is a real phenomenon and a real hardship for some students. But if teachers and counselors are prepared to recognize and help those students—it’s better to recognize a proble early rather than later.

I also don’t feel that teachers should “teach for the test.” That’s not what they are for. Teachers should teach the curriculum they have, that way the test shows how well students are being taught material, not how well they are prepared for the test. Then, if it’s noticed that a topic is underrepresented, the curriculum can be changed.

By Jennifer

April 8, 2005 01:24 PM | Link to this

cp—

exactly! Principals know who is/is not performing in their school. It’s obvious. And they also know who busts their butts to help out. I’d love to see a bonus system put in place. I can’t count the number of times that I, and my colleagues, used our planning period to “cover” classes because there wasn’t a sub. Plus, I spent countless hours after school tutoring kids for free. It’d be nice to have a monetary reward for that behavior. I also agree that it’d be nice to have the principals be able to weed out the slackers.

Politicians have to get out of the schools if they’re ever going to have a chance at rebounding. We have to trust our teachers just like we do other professionals. I trust my accountant to know what he’s doing; I don’t tell him how to do his job & what type of continuing ed. he needs—I leave that up to his certifying group. Teachers do a lot to earn and keep their certification—let’s trust them to use their knowledge.

By Jennifer 3

April 8, 2005 01:30 PM | Link to this

I agree also with the perfect world offered by one of the other Jennifers. That would be great! Problem with summer school is that at this time, we cannot force a student to attend because transportation is not provided by the county. Our school has been blessed with a grant for the last two years that has allowed us to offer transportation to the classes we offer during our times out throughout the school year (modified calendar). This has been more beneficial to our students than summer school because students are getting the remediation they need during the year instead of waiting until the summer when they are a year or more behind. Unfortunately we will the grant runs out next year.
A note to Devil’s Advocate: What do you do for a living? I bet you have the freedom to leave your job for doctor’s appointments or other things like lunch without having to worry about who will replace you while you are gone. We all have tough jobs. Don’t discount the educator. I’m sure you have more freedom than we do.

By Jennifer

April 8, 2005 01:47 PM | Link to this

Jennifer 3,

That’s the irony, isn’t it—if we can’t provide transportation, we can’t mandate it. That’s insane, I think. It’s also the same reason that I was told that I cannot assign after-school detention—we can’t make the parent come pick up the child.

I think that that’s where we’ve gotten over-litigated in our schools. I had no transportation in my home as a child. My mother very clearly told me that I would be walking the 4 miles home from school if I ever got detention. And when my grades slipped and summer school was a possibility, she also explained that I would be going and walking both ways. Now that was a motivator for me to change my behavior! I’m tired of schools being made to cater to every, single situation. No one catered to mine, and you know what? It motivated me to stay on track.

It’s just such a frustrating situation.

By shooter

April 8, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this

Jennifer and CP - Where do “better” educators and “better” administrators come from? Public education is a business, and like any business, is subject to supply and demand. The demand in Georgia is incredible - that’s why they have all the alternative routes to earning a teaching certification. In concept it’s easy to say, “just get better educators,” but it’s unrealistic. In today’s economic world how many people want to enter a thankless job making 25,000 dollars a year? The older educators are retiring and the traditional people who would fill these roles (women) now have more equality and better job prospects. We are left with young educators who leave after two or three years because they do not have the tools or patience to deal with today’s new “apathetic or disrespectful” student and are haven’t vested enough years (unlike older educators) to make it difficult to enter a new field. And, administrators have bosses they must appease - politicians who implement whatever is the current fad (computers in Cobb)and they dare not speak their real mind as to what they believe lest they want to risk being subject to a subtle reprisal. Schools are governed by the same politics and rules businesses are even though they are supposed to represent the ideal.

By Jennifer

April 8, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this

shooter,

Honestly, I believe most of our teachers and administrators that we already have are good, or at least have the potential to be good. However, their hands are tied when it comes to enforcing discipline and remediating students. I’m not asking for an ideal world or an ideal school. But I would like to see the politicians take their hands out of the schools. They don’t know what they’re doing, they don’t know what they’re talking about, and they’re making everything worse each time they rush in to change everything because they’re not getting instant results.

By Devil's Advocate

April 8, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

Um, actually, my point was that one of the other commenters was trotting out the whole “teachers only work 190 days and have it so easy” argument. I wanted to know what conditions he or she worked under.

I am very familiar with the restrictions and conditions of teaching. Very familiar.

By shooter

April 8, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this

One more thing - it’s actually counterproductive in “education” to tie teacher incentives to test scores. Teachers will simply spend all their time teaching to the test which will boost their income. Which was what the whole blog was about - too much testing. Furthermore, I’m sure honors and AP teachers will love the idea based upon the material they work with-however, what about the regular track 9th grade teacher with five 17 year-olds in her class who don’t care and will kill her scores; or the discipline and attendance problems rife in regular track? So a student who has been absent twenty days or suspended twenty throughout the semester takes the test with the rest of the class because he is there on that day? What about the teenage mom who continually misses class? and so on, and so on…

By cp

April 8, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this

Amen, Jennifer. I’ll bet more teachers leave because of all the bs they have to put up with — like students that aren’t on grade level, than because of the money. But I think a bonus — which shows appreciation might help keep some of the good ones. The best place to get really good teachers is to keep the ones we’ve got.

As for transportation to summer school! Forgetaboutit! How about we make the students PAY for summer school as well. Maybe not the whole load, but something. Summer school is supposed to be the stick part of carrot and stick.

I know a hs kid that ended up in summer school math because he wasn’t going to graduate. He is plenty smart, but was slacking off. He got motivated in a hurry.

You guys need to listen to Jennifer. She knows what she’s talking about and has not been brainwashed by the NEA. Now if we can just get her in to see Sonny.

By Shooter

April 8, 2005 02:48 PM | Link to this

Devil’s Advocate - sounds like you’re too familiar.

By Shooter

April 8, 2005 02:59 PM | Link to this

I think Cobb County does pay for buses (I’m not completely sure) however the student must pay around 300 dollars per class - which they won’t pay and neither will their parents because education is their right and they already pay taxes (and the school will give them the same class time and time again.) I have seen the same student take a 9th grade class (9th lit)five times. But summer school should be mandatory for a failed class - you get one shot, then you have to pay or you cannot take that class again. I bet this will get more parents invovled in their child’s education.

By Jennifer

April 8, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this

shooter,

I agree that test scores should not determine a teacher’s bonus/pay. I don’t know what rubric to use, though… I’m tempted to let the principal deal with it on a case-by-case basis. Teachers working with lower-ability kids may have their commitment to working with kids after hours or the overall improvement in their students’ performance over the course of the year determine their bonus. But, it’s tricky when the kids refuse to do the work.

Maybe each teacher could prepare a little mini-presentation of why they should receive a bonus…. who knows. Politicians seem to want a simple, tangible, one-size-fits-all approach to merit pay. Unfortunately, teaching has too many variables for that to work.

By cp

April 8, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this

shooter, My suggestion was to let the principal hand out the bonusses. Test scores are used to measure the school — and therefore the principal. He or she should know which teacher is getting the job done.

Teachers unions fight any kind of merit pay — presumably because they don’t think it will be administered fairly. In reality it undermines their political power.

By shooter

April 8, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this

CP,

The principal is going to reward the educator whose students do well on the test and therefore reflect positively on the principal and his school. If you are a sales manager and your bonus depends on your team reaching a certain total quota - the employees who hit their numbers are going to be rewarded - just as the teachers who do well on the standardized test will be rewarded. Once again - teaching to a test.

Also, there are no active teacher unions in Georgia Public Schools. it is an “at will” state so you can be fired without due process.

By cp

April 8, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this

If I’m teaching AP calculus and have the best students in the school, they will likely do well on the test (e.g. SAT). But if my principal is getting negative feedback on my performance from parents, students and other teachers, I’m not likely to get a bonus. That’s where the thinking part comes in — i.e. you can’t manage a business from a spreadsheet…

Conversely, if the math scores for my school are dropping, then the principal will go ask why.

I’m sure that mistakes will be made. We have some bad principals too — or maybe just overloaded. If they keep the wrong teachers the scores won’t improve. Guess who’s in the hot seat then.

The point is that the principal should know whom to reward and whom to fire. Otherwise he/she is just a cheerleader.

Thanks for straightening me out on the union thing.

By Krista

April 11, 2005 12:36 PM | Link to this

To Jennifer from your “what you’d like to see” posting on the 8th … . AMEN! To an “F” meaning NO PASS, to the NATIONAL standardized tests, to reinstating levels, to not flip-flopping curriculums, and to more respect for our teachers. I’m not a teacher, but am an involved parent. Our elem. school is making great progress (both on testing and in reality) - but it has been a rough road for administration, teachers, parents and students alike. We had a new curriculum mandated 3 years ago, because we had not made adequate yearly progress. As with any other curriculum, there are pros and cons. There are still problems, and students who fall between the cracks on both low AND high academic levels. Admin. and teachers are trying to address these issues one by one, but there is so little flexibility that it’s difficult at best. What does account for the improvement is the fact that we have wonderful, supportive administrators, who work very hard to bring teachers, parents and students together toward a single goal. It’s not perfect, but we’re getting there - not because of NCLB, but because of communication and dedicated team effort!

By Capt. Louie

April 11, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this

On the curriculum issue, I wonder what the differences are between what is mandated to be learned by (x) grade now and what was, say 25 & 50 yrs ago? Do we do more now or less?

Important note, too, is that our kids seem to spend so much time on non-academic junk. I remember much of my elementary years, and we didn’t have so many “throw-away” days that they seem to have now for Field Days, Party/Social events, etc. I remember Christmas parties were held AFTER 2 PM the last day before Winter Holidays. Now, it seems the whole day goes to it. I think I can count on one hand all the fundraisers held in my 6 yrs of elementary school. Now, it’s five to six a year. And they have a two-hour pep rally to introduce it, and spend another hour or so in class handing out the stuff, a couple hours collecting back up, etc. I’m not just waxing nostalgic, I have a point. All this time spent on other things, takes away from academic time. Since we still have the same number of days, we have lost a lot of educational time. How much effect does this have on the tests?

Count me among those who feel some standardized tests are necessary to measure performance.

Question(s) for the teachers: WHat about these kids who make A’s & B’s, but fail the standardized tests miserably? I hear things like “they just don’t test well”, but it seems to me to be a lot of social grading. How could they have passed the semester tests necessary to get an A, if they don’t test well?

I have some input on this: Have an independent review board determine the bonuses, based on the overall achievement set. Principals’ input would come in recommendations, but the decision would be based on the overall record. Leaving it solely in the hands of principals does two things, makes it a political “prize” (or handout), and hides some of the accountability. Independent review solves both, as the review is not beholden for or against the award, and principals will also be indirectly evaluated based on the records of the teachers kept. The review board would be made up of five private citizens: One selected by the Local BofE, one by the teachers, one by the PTA, one by the County/City Commission, and one by the State BofE. They could serve only one term, with a five year period between terms. Depending on county/system size, one board for each school type.

By Sandy

April 12, 2005 11:46 AM | Link to this

My kids are not stressed out over the test. I have told my kids that since they pay attention in school, do their homework, correct the errors they have made during the course of the year, they will not have any trouble with the test. We watch educational shows on television, occasionally visit zoos and museums, read books, magazines and newspapers; they accompany me to the store. I have always spoken to them using adult language and never shyed away from using “big” words. Rather I used the word and explained the meaning when they asked. Our daily lives give rise to many teaching opportunities. During testing week my kids do not have any changes made to their bedtime or breakfast. They normally go to bed at a decent hour and eat breakfast. My kids are already used to having to sit quietly for extended periods of time, and can read for extended periods of time without being disruptive. They have been taught how to behave at home and in school. I have been involved in my children’s education since they were born. I do not need the teacher to tell me what my kids know or don’t know. I know because I spend time with them. I do not spend alot of time in my child’s classroom or even at the school. I believe the teachers know what they are doing. I believe what the teachers need from me is a child who has their basic needs met, who has a good attitude towards learning, who is respectful and possesses the proper amount of self-control for his age. Given this, their is no stopping a student from succeeding. My kids attend schools that are ranked the lowest of the low, yet they have managed to do very well on all the standarized tests as well as the SAT and ACT. I can only imagine how much more they could have learned had the teacher not had to spend so much time disciplining the children’s behavior problems and poor attitudes. I firmly believe if we can educate parents to be responsible parents who value education, and who teach their children to be respectful of the teacher and administrators, and to practice self-control in the classroom, most of the problems of student learning will be solved.

To answer a question of yours Capt. Louie, Yes. There is plenty of social grading. There is much pressure on teachers to give the student the grade the student’s parent wants him to have instead of the one the student deserves. AFter all, the parent may be embarrassed come awards day if their child is not walking to the stage to collect. Administrators do not want parents calling to complain about grades.

By Will T

April 15, 2005 10:42 AM | Link to this

I have two children, a junior in high school and a 4th grader. Both are in public school. Both are doing very well academically. However, I do notice differences. My junior does not do very well on standardized test whereas my 4th grader excels. Just yesterday, I went online and got my junior’s SAT scores. He did “good.” My 4th grader “excels” on the ITBS and CRCT or any of the other tests taken. Both children have gotten the same quality educational values instilled to them at home. But, they both perform differently on standardized tests. This is the first time that these tests have been a problem for my junior. Never before has there been a situation where the scores were of such major importance. I know that my junior will do well on the ECOT next year, and better on his second attempt at the SAT in June, but it concerns me that a student with a 3.5 GPA will possibly not graduate because of a test. For my 4th grader, the scores have been completely off the chart. There is no pressure for either child at home or schedule changes, etc. In fact, my 4th grader is looking forward to next week’s CRCT.
Now, I know there are those who will say my junior is not learning the material. But, before you do, please realize that I am a parent who makes certain that my children understand the information presented to them at school by supplementing that information at home. My children are continuously exposed to the things that are covered on the tests year-round. We realize that it is not the school’s job to make certain our children learn, yet it is their job to present the information to the children. As a parent, I take full responsibility for the successes or failures of my children. It is my responsibility to make certain that I provide the necessary tools for my children to learn. If I uphold my responsibilities and require my children to do the same, I have fulfilled my obligation. If the teachers and schools provide the information to my children, they have done their jobs. If my children, in turn, learn that information and utilize the tools and information presented to them, they have fulfilled their responsibilities.
I have never been a big proponent of standardized testing. I believe that a teacher in a classroom knows better the capabilities of the students and whether or not they should pass to the next grade. That is not to say that I disagree with standards being established and met. But, teachers should have the final say, yet without resorting to social promotion. It is my belief that administrators and teachers are professionals and thusly know what they are doing. As parents we must support them by making certain they have the tools necessary to do their jobs just as we support our children. Praise them (teacher and students) and let them know they are appreciated when the job is done well. Admonish and correct them (teachers and students) when the job is done poorly. Over and over, I hear and read about the poor jobs teachers and schools are doing or the stories of students not learning for whatever reasons. Yet, I rarely hear about the responsibilities of parents. Education is a partnership consisting of parents, teachers and students (PTSA). We all have an equal burden to bear and should likewise work more diligently to make the partnership be successful. No one of these entities can act alone to insure a quality education for our children, thus translating into a more productive citizen within society.

By kw

April 18, 2005 09:10 AM | Link to this

I would have to say these tests are important to continue to take through out elementary school and beyond b/c they do help in testing skills in the students. One big issue I have with this CRCT is if a failing student (speaking bout 4th grade) passed it they are automatically promoted on to 5th grade. My wife is a teacher and when she told me this I asked why even grade the papers of the kids if class grades mean nothing and the state of GA gauges the kids knowledge based on one test. She currently has a student with all 30s/40s for averages and now if this student passes they get promoted, To me the schools here need to re-think about retaining kids based on more than one test.

By Yvonne Candis

April 20, 2005 08:58 AM | Link to this

Everyone talks about the CRCT being pressure for 3rd and 5th grade students. Do people really know about the humiliation that is bestowed upon a child when he is socially promoted and cannot function at the next level not to mention the discipline problems that child has because he/she is so far behind. Do folks understand how frustrating it is for one teacher to not only teach his/her current grade level with 30 or so students who exhibit multiple learning styles on grade level,but reach back and try to accomodate students that are not up to the current level AND deal with the discipline. I suggest that people pay a visit to their local middle or high school. Watch the students in action. I guarantee you will see the negative results of social promotion within one hour. So far other than using the CRCT as a guide for promotion, until someone comes up with something better. This is the best solution. HOWEVER, State of GA,take a tip from some of the northern states and totally fund Summer School. It works!