AJC.com > Blogs > Get Schooled > Archives > 2005 > April > 04 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USSocial Promotion, Part II
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
In an earlier post about social promotion, the topic of alternative schools came up. Aren’t alternative schools the place for kids who don’t want to learn?
Hmmmm… I always thought alternative schools were for kids with discipline problems. Often, such students have academic problems too. The special education population in alternative schools is much higher than in traditional schools. But is alternative education really the place for kids who have not mastered the material to move on to the next grade?
When I covered the Gwinnett system in the late 1990s, there was talk of setting up programs called “success schools.” If I recall, these schools would be for kids who did not have discipline problems but did need a lot more instruction in the basics before they could move on to the next grade.
Is this a good answer?
Comments
Commenting is now closed for this entry.
By Robert
April 4, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this
Why is our society insisting on educating EVERYONE if EVERYONE does not want an education? Does this make sense in today’s society. Maybe at one time, all of society valued an education, but it is obvious that this is not the case for EVERYONE in todays world.
Save our tax dollars and simply allow for drop-outs and also allow for “students” to be kicked out if they do not perform or if they do not want to be there and are there simply for a free lunch or maybe because the parents see it as baby sitting service during the day. No one can force a student to learn. This is something that is driven from within and created in the culture of that student (their home life, for example).
Why should we even have alternative schools for discipline problem students? If they cannot behave, kick them out and let their parents or even the police deal with them. The educational system was not intended to become everyone’s foster parents.
No wonder average standardized test scores continue to drop….
By Susan
April 4, 2005 12:51 PM | Link to this
Ok, so kick them out. What happens to the per student funding that the school district recieves for these children? Does the district get to keep it? If so, why should they? Who determines who gets kicked out? What happens if a particular teacher just doesn’t like a student and continuously writes a student up - with Georgia’s progressive discipline plan, a student could get kicked out really quickly..Just questions…You know what really saddens me is the School VS Parents/Students. This is really scarey. Why don’t we close down public schools since everyone seems to hate one another so much. Give the parents the alloted funding and maybe they can go somewhere where they are more appreciated..
By Shannon
April 4, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this
Robert, I completely agree.
Our school systems are lousy because we expend almost all of our resources—both time and money—trying to shove low-performing students toward mediocrity. Of all my students with borderline or failing averages, only about twenty-five percent are in that situation because they have true intellectual obstacles. The rest are just so lazy they wouldn’t work in a pie factory.
Unfortunately, we can’t glue a pencil into a student’s hand, or prop their eyelids open with toothpicks. We all know that you can’t force a person to do something they don’t want to. I spend almost every day of my planning period documenting the “progress” of students like these (not the mention the behavior problems they cause). My hardworking, intelligent students receive the least of my attention. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and there are only so many hours in a day.
I favor social promotion in these cases for the following reasons—I have several eighth graders that are sixteen years old. How long should the taxpayers have to shell out money in attempt to educate students who refuse to perform. In my opinion, students like these should have one chance per grade level—they either make the effort to learn the skills and material, or they don’t. The next year, they advance to the next grade level whether they bothered to prepare themselves or not. If they’re not successful, sorry, Charlie—that’s what happens when you choose not to take advantage of your education.
Of course, students with genuine learning difficulties who are doing their best could be retained if it would benefit them to do so.
By Lola
April 4, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this
I think getting rid of (i.e. kicking out) the students who cause problems and prevent the other students from learning is the way to go. What gives them the right to deny an education to other children who DO want to learn? These people will most likely never be productive citizens anyway, so let them start their minimum wage jobs now and quit wasting the valuable time of the teachers and the money of the taxpayers. Alternative schools are a good place for children with learning problems, and maybe for those with an occassional behavior problem, but I wouldn’t waste time sending the repeat offenders there. All that does is deny other children the ability to learn and make something of themselves. Some kids are just never going to amount to anything, and you can’t force them to.
By Robert
April 4, 2005 02:33 PM | Link to this
Susan, You miss my point completely. I think that public education is certainly the way to go. However, public education does not mean that schools are forced to babysit for kids that do not want to learn. If they want to learn then fine, we should help them. But, when “students” are there to simply take up space, take up the teachers time and energy with discipline problems, eat a free lunch, and so on, let them go!!!
Give teachers a little respect and credit. Most of them joined that profession because they want to help children, not to hurt them.
As far as you credit per student question goes - the school district should only get credit for the students in the classroom. Then, it is up to the LOCAL SCHOOL DISTRICT to decide how to balance that funding with the low test scores. Do we keep the trouble makers just to get that money? I doubt that anyone would make that trade off…
Yes, the schools vs. parents issue is saddening. However, if parents would parent (gee, what a novel idea!) then the schools could focus on education.
And you need to stop with the generalization about all public schools. All public schools are not the same and neither are all private ones. The major advantage private schools have over public schools is that their parents have already a proven track record of concern for their childs education. I would like to see any private school take the lower performing students from any public school and THEN we would see how “great” they are!!!!
By Robert
April 4, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this
One more thing…
The State tournament for Science Olympiad was held this past week at Emory University. This is a huge event for students primarily in the sciences (chemistry, biology, physics, astronomy, etc.), however math certainly helps in these events as well.
Guess what schools finished 1 and 2? Not any private school. First place went to Parkview High and second place went to Meadowcreek High.
Keep in mind that the private schools get the “choice” students and a great deal of funding above the private schools. However, Parkview High has finished 1st place the past three years in a row!
And yes, there were many private schools competeing: Westminster (Atl), Paideia, and so on. There was even a group of home schoolers that competed: Genesis Home Education. However, the public schools defeated them!
By Jennifer
April 4, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this
About the special ed. population Patti mentions…
Personally, I don’t care if there are a disproportionate number of special ed. kids in an alternative school designed to house kids with discipline problems. There right to an education in the “least restrictive environment” shouldn’t interfere with my children’s right to be taught in a class that is routinely free from disruption. Our society has become so minorty focused that the rights of 1 student outweigh the rights of the other 28 kids in the class.
By Jennifer
April 4, 2005 03:03 PM | Link to this
Susan,
Having worked in public schools, I can say that if a parent feels that their child is being “picked on” by a teacher, they can and will press the principal to move the child to another class. So the odds of a student being moved to an alternative school based on their experiences in one classroom are small. What would likely happen is that the student would be moved any other class within the same school, and once a pattern of behavior was established, then they’d move to an alternative school.
Oh, and as to who would keep the money… I’d suspect that these would be public schools, so the per student allotment would travel with them. People like me, who pay to have our kids in private school, simply do our civic duty and contribute our taxes to support the greater good and provide a free, public education to all, even those that don’t appreciate it. At present, our per student allotment stays with the public school system as well.
By Jennifer
April 4, 2005 03:06 PM | Link to this
As an aside, I do know the difference between “they’re,” “their,” and “there,” but I made a typo. =)
By Lacy
April 4, 2005 03:10 PM | Link to this
If lower performers shouldn’t be put in “Alternative Schools,” then at least allow schools to have ranked classes—that is, higher performing students are grouped together in a class, while those at a lower level are also together. This way, teachers who specialize in helping needier students can help those, while teachers who are great at helping “advanced” students reach their fullest potential can actually do so. These days, classes are taught to the lowest common denominator—usually the kids who just don’t care and aren’t going to “get it,” no matter how many times the teacher goes over it. This means that those students who comprehend quickly are forced to learn on a level below them, and as such are never challenged.
By Robert
April 4, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this
It is my understanding that public high schools generally do have a type of “ranked” classes. There are college prep classes, AP classes, generaly level classes, etc. The problem surfaces when students are mis-placed in these classes (Mommy forces little Susie to take AP classes even though Susie is not ready) and therefore slows the class down and/or acts out.
And, you are right in that currently the teacher must teach to all students which means that the lessons are geared toward the lower performing students. However, this is where the teacher must try to be a professional and offer differentiated lessons. A teacher can do this if they are given the time and the students cooperate (yeah, this will happen).
The problem is that the current environment makes good teaching almost impossible. Teachers have so much administrative responsbilities in addition to handling discipline problems, students with home problems, students with drug problems, pregnant students, and on and on. On top of this dump onto the teacher the ever increasing rules/restrictions from the State and the professional teacher is becoming nothing more than a robot and unable to provide this differentiated instruction.
It is no wonder some teachers have the desire to help students driven out of them…
By Tara
April 4, 2005 03:31 PM | Link to this
In reference to the funding issue. Schools recieve funding for students based on an October 1 count each school year. If a school has 1000 students enrolled on this day they recieve funding for 1000 students. If over the year, 150 dropout/transfer and only 100 move into the school then yes that school has gotten lucky. If however they have 150 students dropout/ transfer but have 200 move into the school, they do not recieve any additional funding and must educate them based on funding recieved from their October 1st counts.
By Jennifer
April 4, 2005 03:34 PM | Link to this
Robert,
You are not quite correct. There are levels: AP, Honors, and the rest. So, everyone from the slightly above average to the lowest performing students are lumped together. Further complicating things are that parents of the average/slightly above are pressing the principals to place their darlings into Honors classes which they’re not ready for and which causes the teachers to again have to teach to a lower level.
When I was in school we had X, Y, Z, Z+: X- behavior problems/basic babysitting Y- attentive students, but skills deficient & need extra attention Z- average kids Z+ honors level
It worked out very well…everyone had a place, and the students who wanted to learn could do so without the disruptions of the kids in the “X” classes.
By JohnS
April 4, 2005 03:59 PM | Link to this
The great thing about perivate schools is they can kick out the students with “issues” of any kind, leaving behind the placid, docile ones who seem to want to learn. The latter students present no challenge of any kind to teachers or parents. Period.
By Manny T
April 4, 2005 04:11 PM | Link to this
Society has a vested interest in trying to provide some basic skills for all its citizens. While we may want the problem kids out of our kid’s class, I think we also want those problem kids to have some level of basic knowledge and social responsibility. Otherwise we pay more in the long run for the adult version of that problem kid. Yes, alternative schools can provide basic learning for problem kids. Everyone should try to learn, but after a certain point, you get a choice. That’s why it is legal to drop out at 16, but not at 10.
Now days alternative schools can also provide a place for kids with other issues to learn in a common, less judgmental environment. For example, if the kid comes from a difficult background (abuse, parent in jail, etc.) and there is a preference to learn, but not in an environment where it appears that everyone else has a regular family, let them. If the school system has the resources to have schools for kids with special issues, let’s do it. It still comes from the same pool of tax dollars, but it allows you to concentrate resources to help them. We do similar things with the kids that get into trouble with the law. That’s why the Dept of Juvenile Justice has schools across the state.
Last but not least, what ever happened to the alternative trade high schools. You can make a good living as a plumber or electrician without being on the college prep track.
By Griffin
April 4, 2005 04:15 PM | Link to this
Exactly John. The system is broken. It will continue to be broken cause of the stranglehold on the money tree by the educationm lobby. Vouchers will work better. Let the schools have a more business or capitalist style and the cream will rise to the top, and the weak will close.
By Frank
April 5, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this
As dollars for education begin to shrink, politicians will soon have to make some hard choices. One of those being; what do we do with children that CHOOSE not to learn?
In the current environment, too much time, money and people resources are wasted tending to the “needs” of those who have CHOSEN not to learn.
When a child presents a pattern of disruptive behavior several steps should occur. 1. What is causing the behavior (is it a learning disability, family crisis, etc.??)? 2. After causation is established, act on it. If its a disability, get the child to the right disability help. If its a family crisis, bring in counselors to help. If it is a matter of the child not wanting to learn, give the parents and the child ONE written warning: further disruption and the child’s education is the responsibility of the child and the parents, NOT the schools.
We need to provide a safe environment for those children who do want to learn. And we need to provide the resources for those with issues or disabilities to get the right assistance without interfering in the education of others.
By Debbie
April 5, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this
The real problem is politicians who have not been inside a classroom for 40 years trying to tell me how to run “my” classroom. I teach special education at an elementary school in a very poor rural school district. My students have no choice as to the way they are raised or parented, and the majority of them are left to pretty much fend for themselves. In recent years, because it politically correct, these students are pushed more and more to perform at levels that they are incapable of. If a child cannot count money, tie his shoes, or read at a first grade level (in the 5th grade) should he really be expected to perform in a fifth grade classroom and take the 5th grade CRCT? This is what is happening and rather than teaching my students the life skills they need to SURVIVE, I am force to try to teach them things that they are not ready to learn so that “those special ed kids” don’t bring down the all-important test scores of the school. If anyone is really concerned about how to fix problems, please ask a real teacher who is actually works with students every day.
By Debbie
April 5, 2005 11:03 AM | Link to this
The real problem is politicians who have not been inside a classroom for 40 years trying to tell me how to run “my” classroom. I teach special education at an elementary school in a very poor rural school district. My students have no choice as to the way they are raised or parented, and the majority of them are left to pretty much fend for themselves. In recent years, because it politically correct, these students are pushed more and more to perform at levels that they are incapable of. If a child cannot count money, tie his shoes, or read at a first grade level (in the 5th grade) should he really be expected to perform in a fifth grade classroom and take the 5th grade CRCT? This is what is happening and rather than teaching my students the life skills they need to SURVIVE, I am forced to try to teach them things that they are not ready to learn (such as the types of sentences!) so that “those special ed kids” don’t bring down the all-important test scores of the school. If anyone is really concerned about how to fix problems, please ask a real teacher who is actually works with students every day.
By Vic
April 5, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this
Frank and Debbie, I agree with you both, but I’d like to offer a slightly different point of view. Frank, I think the first step should be to secure the learning environment. Causation should be determined afterwards, and it should be the responsibility of a different agency. You stated that we need to provide a safe environment for the students who want to learn, and this should take top priority. Where we may differ is that I think causation and the other issues that follow should be the responsibility of someone other than the school system. Now, please don’t attack me, I just want to suggest a different mind-set. A large part of the problem with public education lies in the fact that we attempt to do too many thing other than education. For example, transportation should be the sole responsibility of the parents, neighbors, older siblings, etc. Meals should be provided by another source, such as churches and private vendors. Psychological services, emotional disturbance assessments, etc., should be the responsibility of DFACS. I know the arguments against what I’m suggesting, but I don’t have time to rebut them. Suffice it to say that public schools should get back to the original purpose of simply educating our children, nothing more and nothing less. If we took this approach, there would be more than enough money to hire more teachers and to pay them a decent salary and class sizes would be smaller. Finally, if we can’t get the teacher professional organizations, GAE and PAGE, to lobby to accomplish this, then I agree with Griffin, let the vouchers roll and the best schools win.
By yesiamworried
April 5, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this
Troubled students tend to have troubled parents who won’t make choices for their children — these kids will simply end up whereever there is room. (An argument against vouchers fixing what is really wrong with education, which is I am sorry to say mostly parents and students.
The best teachers can’t teach kids who don’t want to learn, who have parents who don’t reinforce positive messages about school and who live in communities where there is simply no value placed on education.
By Robert
April 6, 2005 10:18 AM | Link to this
School vouchers are a “paper tiger” idea…. wrong idea for a real problem. It is like “privitization” of social security. Do the idiot republicans really think that the American people are that stupid? But, then again, the majority of American people voted for them, so I guess we are… but that is another blog.
The idea of Public Schools competing for students is crazy. Let’s look at just a couple of examples: First, school A is located in Buckhead where they get all of the well mannered students and are certainly well funded while school B is located in the hills of Georgia. Hmmm, guess which school would appear “better” and therefore more “vouchers” because all of Atlanta parents want their student to attend school A? Second example, school A is in Stone Mountain and is an average school but one student does something stupid like bring a gun. Does this mean that the next year the student body takes their vouchers to another school? Think of the logistics involved for relocating the teachers, the school supplies, etc. That school system would be paralized.
School vouchers are just a BS idea brought on by BS republican politicians that know nothing of the education system.
By Vic
April 6, 2005 11:41 AM | Link to this
Robert, your points are well taken. However, you are suggesting that competition will not work with education. I disagree. Competition may actually be the answer. Like you, I have some reservations, but maybe it’s time we change the way we think about public education. In fact, there is a pending lawsuit in Atlanta which may end with a decision to allow parents to take their children to the school of their choice, no matter where it is located. A key issue is whether the residence requirement for school districts is constitutional. Of course, there will be problems with open competition, but that is the “American way”. One thing for sure, we all can probably agree that the present system simply is not working, and needs to be reformed. If we can’t fix the current system, then let’s try something different.
By Susan
April 6, 2005 11:45 AM | Link to this
My question is how do we stop this animosity between schools, students and families. From what I am reading on all of these boards, there is an palpable hatred eminating from all sides and it is truly sad. Let’s find a way to make this work. No finger pointing, no name calling, no ganging up as parents vs. teachers or schools vs families. Remember this is for the kids - ALL OF THEM. We have to work together to find a way. What about an AJC Task Force to get people to work together to find a solution?
Susan
By Susan
April 6, 2005 11:59 AM | Link to this
Vic,
How does one go about finding out more about the lawsuit? Who filed it? Is it a class action? Who are the attorney’s handling this?
Thanks
Susan
By Vic
April 6, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this
Susan, the attorney’s name is Glenn Delk. I’m sure if you contact his office (I don’t have a number), they will fill you in on the status of the case. I’m no legal authority, but this could probably turn public education upside down. Maybe I’m wrong, but this could turn out to be our Brown v. Board of Education. I think we may need something like this to happen. Also, check the archives for Jim Wooten’s editorial “Let Parents Have a Say on Schools”, AJC 2-1-05. Also, lady you are so right! All the personal attacks are totally unnecessary. I would like to join with you on an AJC Task Force. We know the problems, let’s get down to some solutions.
By Robert
April 6, 2005 01:22 PM | Link to this
Public education and competition mix as well as health care and competition. When was the last time that you (or anyone you know) has said, I am going to Doctor X because he is cheaper? Or, I am going to Doctor Y because his paitents live longer?
This type of competition is ridiculous to even assume in our society.
As far as education is concerned… whenever parents value education then it works, and whenever parents do not value education it does not. Problems arise when the parents do not parent and expect the schools (private or public) to raise their children (instilling values, morals, etc.). Private schools have a simple advantage over public because they can kick out the bad apples. Introducing faux competition will not change this environment.
By Robert
April 6, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this
Such a lawsuit would be ridiculous. Why?
First, parents with means could then personally transport their child to which ever school they select while parents without means are stuck. Is this fair?
Second, certain schools would then become overcrowded leaving other schools empty. What would become of the empty schools? And, the faculty from the supposed “bad” school would simply be moved to the “good” school, so then what really changes (except multiple trailors in the “good” schools)?
Before throwing out suggestions or lawsuits, maybe people should think through their ideas. Otherwise, the solution will be worse than what we have.
By Vic
April 6, 2005 02:11 PM | Link to this
For those who have all the answers, I sure wish you would enlighten the rest of us. Some people offer no solutions, they just spend their time criticizing the suggestions of others. I think many of us are thinking through our ideas, we just don’t agree on every point. It is truly amazing to encounter people who believe that if you don’t agree with them, then you must be wrong. I appreciate those who respect the opinions of others, even when we disagree. The negative tone of some is really counterproductive. So, let’s move forward. Are there others who would like to join an AJC Task Force to get people to work TOGETHER? We can use this forum as a positive means to address these issues and brainstorm. We can also hear from one another to identify several alternatives which may allow us to reach workable solutions. This is the real key to problem solving.
By Robert
April 6, 2005 02:30 PM | Link to this
Here are suggestions. They are simple to implement, cost effective, and I think would certainly improve education…
By the way, if you haven’t figured it out, I am a high school teacher. I have seen it all. I have had parents bribe me to give their daughter an A when she could not add. I have had physical actions against me by students. I have seen very bright students on drugs and then fail out of college. I have seen parents buy their son a new SUV when he was in in-house-suspension for fighting. And on and on.
The common thread to every single problem that I have seen, without exception, is….. bad parenting. Now understand that this may not be the only problem, but it is the common thread.
By Robert
April 6, 2005 02:46 PM | Link to this
Vic, Would you please specifically spell out the “problem?”
Thanks.
By Vic
April 6, 2005 03:28 PM | Link to this
Hey, Robert, I think you did a great job of spelling out the problem and reasonable solutions, too. Just FYI, I’m a middle school teacher, but I taught in an alternative school and I spent years teaching convicted felons. I’ve seen a few things myself. So, your suggestions are really strong. Allow me to add to them, if you please.
Point 1 is solid, however, I think we teachers are part of the overall problem. Bad parents are indeed a common thread. However, we allow our professional associations, GAE and PAGE, to do very little beyond representing us when we’re in trouble and asking for a yearly raise. Now, I’m not bashing them, they serve a good cause. But, we should press them to lobby for us to be heard on these issues, without fear of reprisal. You are right, we do know what is going on. And, we can fix it.
Points 2 and 3 are also strong. Accountability should be applied to everyone involved, not just teachers. The original issue here was about social promotion. If we continue to promote students who don’t pass, then how are they being held accountable? I know there are problems with retaining them, but we should be innovative and come up with solutions, not just pass them on. When we pass the failing students, our integrity and credibility are shot to bits. Another example could be a statewide 2 strikes you’re out policy. Two trips to ISS and then OSS kicks in, no exceptions and no discretion for administrators. I like your idea about parenting classes, also. The current law allows for the teacher’s consent before a disruptive student is returned to the class. Let’s take advantage of it.
The problem, in my opinion, is the people who are qualified and know how to fix the problem are too busy attacking each other, instead of getting together and fixing it. Those people would be us. Please respond.
By Robert
April 6, 2005 04:52 PM | Link to this
Vic, I am not sure what you want me to reply to at this point….
By Susan
April 6, 2005 05:01 PM | Link to this
Patti - what about an AJC Taskforce of Teachers, Parents, Administrators and LEGISLATORS- an open forum where everyone can be heard, where ideas can become laws, where everyone feels their needs are being met. I propose setting up a startup group and then having a public forum with online updates - I’ll be happy to build and host the website if you would like.
I love the idea of parenting classes. I believe many times parents (especially single parents) become very overwhelmed in the daily business of life. Family, Work, School, etc. that sometimes one more problem becomes too much to bear and sometimes the school staff may bear the major brunt of this frustration. Parents don’t know what to do. Maybe a parent’s resource group should be set up out of DEFACS to help act as a laison between the schools and home - if there is a family at risk - defacs gets a call and the family is assigned to parenting classes - not threatened but helped???
I am also for school staff taking customer service classes as well. Many times as a parent - and I am a very involved parent - the answers I’ve received have been vague or ridiculous. Example - I have a 9th grader who failed 9th grade lit. All I wanted was information on where he could take a make up class. I don’t want him to wait until senior year as was suggested, that’s taking too big of a risk, and wouldn’t teach one of life’s better lessons I wished to share with my son. “If you fail, then you have to work twice as hard to catch up.” I never received the answer as to where he may take a make up class. I spent the better part of 2 weeks researching the various surrounding counties to find out who offers the makeup class. I then sent the information to our Guidance Counselor who in all honesty should have had this information available to all parents when they called. Parents get frustrated because all they want to know is what do I do to correct this matter…Does that make sense?
In order to make parents become more involved, you have to make them feel more comfortable. Many parents are intimidated by educators - most of the time due to a percieved or true educational barrier or a feeling that the school employees are etter than them, etc. or the only time a parent comes to the school is when there is a problem. Schools should be made to be a welcome place where parents and teachers can talk FREELY.
Teachers should never feel as if they are going to get in trouble for talking about problems at their school. This is absurd. We must put a stop to this practice. We can’t fix things if the very people on the front line are muzzled. Too many times administrators are more worried about themselves and not about the students and teachers. I’ve always heard that those who teach can and those who can’t are administrators :)
Parents should never worry about retaliation against their child if they initiate a complaint about a teacher.
Sorry to be so longwinded, but education is very important to me.
I’m a parent by the way..
Susan
By Patti
April 7, 2005 03:17 PM | Link to this
Patti - what about an AJC Taskforce of Teachers, Parents, Administrators and LEGISLATORS- an open forum where everyone can be heard, where ideas can become laws, where everyone feels their needs are being met. I propose setting up a startup group and then having a public forum with online updates - I’ll be happy to build and host the website if you would like.
*Hey Susan, I’m all for citizens taking action. Because of my role as a journalist, it’s not something I can be directly involved in. But I would be happy to let people know about it. *
Patti
By Susan
April 11, 2005 01:20 PM | Link to this
To all of the whiners:
Ok, now I see. It’s easier to complain than it is to work together to find solutions to our problems.
Thanks Vic and Robert and Patti for wanting to find a solution. To the rest, maybe the problem doesn’t lie solely with the students. From my stand point, it takes all of us to make a problem, so it should take all of us to fix it.