Get Schooled

By David

March 30, 2005 03:27 PM | Link to this

no surprise…..dekalb, rockdale and now newton ……it’s just a matter of time…this will soon be a weekly incident in east metro atlanta…i said it last week …the parents are a grown version of their kids….i’m sorry…i’ll say it again…CHILD LEFT BEHIND OR NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND…EDUCATION IS ONLY FOR THOSE WHO CHOOSE IT…EDUCATION IS NOT FOR EVERYBODY…..these incidents will soon be happening at such a rate that they will no longer be in the news….

By Shante

March 30, 2005 04:58 PM | Link to this

Oh my goodness is all I have to say. That doesn’t make any sense. And then we wonder why our kids are out here doing anything and talking any ‘ole kind of way. It’s ridiculous.

By Larry

March 31, 2005 09:13 AM | Link to this

This does not surprise me in the least. It is a shame that we as a society won’t call a spade a spade. We want to tip toe around the issue. I may be called a racist for my statements, but look at who is causing all the problems in schools today. Why don’t you hear about things like this occurring at a Brookwood, Parkview, Marist, Westminister, Lovett, Milton, Roswell etc. Money has nothing to do with how you raise your child. It is just like the teacher that got attacked at FPHS. Nothing is going to change until we as a society do something about it. We need to let teachers teach. Get the garbage out of our schools. No three strikes your out. To HECK with that, you screw up once, your out. To heck with this no child left behind. Not all kids are book smart. Face the facts. Those kids that don’t want to be in school or those who cause problems need to be put in some kind of work program or military school. Something to think about.

By Jen

March 31, 2005 09:15 AM | Link to this

I am not surprised by this at all. Ask any teacher and they can tell you many stories about parent meetings in which parents insist their "little darlings" are perfect and it must be the teacher, not the child. However, when there are 6 teachers all stating the same thing, one would think that 6 adults would not be creating a mass conspiracy. I taught collaborative classes (special ed mixed with regular ed students) and many of our parents insisted their children were going to receive college prep diplomas despite the fact their children never did anything even when the work was modified (read that as about 1/4 of what was expected of the other children) In the end, these students still have to pass the graduation tests. I looked at our list of seniors that still have a section to pass and almost every senior on that list is enrolled in the Special Education program. Yet parents still blame the teachers. These students have an option the "special education diploma" and parents do not want to accept that may the best option for their children. It is impossible to expect a student to do modified work for 13 years, be passed in classes (because we are FORCED to, we have "meetings" with our principals about failure rates)and then receive the same test the rest of the students in the state take and expect all special education students to pass. We give so many students a free ride (social promotion) all along and then wonder why at the end they can not read or pass the GHSGT. Parents want their students in special ed; it gives them an excuse as to why their children behave the way they do. More than 12% of the students in our system are receiving special education services. There is no accountability for students or parents, just for teachers. Special education students can not be suspended more than 10 days in a school year. If we have a student that is constantly disruptive, we have no recourse. The apple does not fall far from the tree. Students learn what they are taught at home. If home training involves inappropriate outbursts (similar to the one this mother had at Redan Middle School) that is how a student will behave at school.

As an aside, many people on this board complain about the cost of education. Have you ever compared the cost of educating a special education child vs. a regular education child? It is about $15,000 vs. $7000. Until parents rise up and complain about the money wasted on special education, it is only going to get worse!

By Jen

March 31, 2005 09:18 AM | Link to this

I am not surprised by this at all. Ask any teacher and they can tell you many stories about parent meetings in which parents insist their “little darlings” are perfect and it must be the teacher, not the child. However, when there are 6 teachers all stating the same thing, one would think that 6 adults would not be creating a mass conspiracy. I taught collaborative classes (special ed mixed with regular ed students) and many of our parents insisted their children were going to receive college prep diplomas despite the fact their children never did anything even when the work was modified (read that as about 1/4 of what was expected of the other children) In the end, these students still have to pass the graduation tests. I looked at our list of seniors that still have a section to pass and almost every senior on that list is enrolled in the Special Education program. Yet parents still blame the teachers. These students have an option the “special education diploma” and parents do not want to accept that may the best option for their children. It is impossible to expect a student to do modified work for 13 years, be passed in classes (because we are FORCED to, we have “meetings” with our principals about failure rates)and then receive the same test the rest of the students in the state take and expect all special education students to pass. We give so many students a free ride (social promotion) all along and then wonder why at the end they can not read or pass the GHSGT. Parents want their students in special ed; it gives them an excuse as to why their children behave the way they do. More than 12% of the students in our system are receiving special education services. There is no accountability for students or parents, just for teachers. Special education students can not be suspended more than 10 days in a school year. If we have a student that is constantly disruptive, we have no recourse. The apple does not fall far from the tree. Students learn what they are taught at home. If home training involves inappropriate outbursts (similar to the one this mother had at Redan Middle School) that is how a student will behave at school. As an aside, many people on this board complain about the cost of education. Have you ever compared the cost of educating a special education child vs. a regular education child? It is about $15,000 vs. $7000. Until parents rise up and complain about the money wasted on special education, it is only going to get worse!

By Krystal

March 31, 2005 09:26 AM | Link to this

larry, you are a racist. who are all the kids shooting up their schools?????

By Claude Mercy

March 31, 2005 09:32 AM | Link to this

NOW, THE PUBLIC WANTS A TEACHER TO DO WHAT? WITH KIDS FROM PARENTS LIKE THIS? IT IS CLEARLY TEACHERS FAULT THAT WE ARE IN LAST PLACE FOR SAT SCORES, AND EVERYTHING ELSE WRONG IN EDUCATION.

By Larry

March 31, 2005 09:33 AM | Link to this

No, I am a realist. I see the truth for what it is. I knew some narrow minded nit wit would bring up the school shootings. How often do those happen? Anyway, if you want to bring up race in the recent school shootings, i do believe the latest school shooter was a minority (Native American or some mix). Hey Krystal, do us one favor before you make an idiot out of yourself again, “THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK!”

By Vic

March 31, 2005 09:34 AM | Link to this

David, Once again, you are right on the money. Larry, I don’t think you are a racist. I agree, get the garbage out, no matter what color or race. We need to give top priority to the protection of the learning environment. Give the students who come to school ready and willing to learn a chance to do so. As it stands right now, they are suffering.

By Sonny

March 31, 2005 09:53 AM | Link to this

Classic. Just fence em all in. Let em do what they want.

By CD

March 31, 2005 09:59 AM | Link to this

Krystal, Remind us who the 18 suspects were that killed the four year old in the “your posse dissed my peeps” shootout.

Rival rappers, aged 16-25 in groups like “Hit Squad” and “Southside Mafia.”

This is a matter of culture and some cultures glorify violence and the degradation of women (does “Slutfest” ring a bell?”) more than others.

By Larry

March 31, 2005 10:05 AM | Link to this

CD, your are applying logic to a person that has the IQ of a lima bean. I have hope in society. There is at least one person who has the guts to come out and call a spade a spade! Thank You CD!!!! Oh but wait, this murder did not happen at school, so i guess in the eyes of Kyrstal, it doesn’t count in terms of violence. Darn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By C.M.

March 31, 2005 10:06 AM | Link to this

Vic, David and Larry, YES! you are all right! education is just not meant for everyone. Come on people, America is just becoming pathetic in this area. We are just too politically correct! I know of a particular school that has some students with over 25 office refferals!!! Why can’t this kids just be kicked out of school? Public school should be for kids that can first do the work and second actually have some self respect! If you have kids that just will not follow directions and are destructive and a danger to other kids why can’t they be kicked out? COME ON!!!Krystal, give me a break.

By Larry

March 31, 2005 10:10 AM | Link to this

Krystal, where are you??????????? Oh wait, i guess you are trying to get your foot out of your mouth!!!!!!!!

By CD

March 31, 2005 10:13 AM | Link to this

Sure enough. I just grow weary of any culture who thinks: “I don’t have to reason or act like a civilized member of society…. I’ll let my 9 (or AK) do the talkin’ when I bust a cap in ya’ �

A good question might be, “What kind of parents have sons/daughters in gun-toting rap gangs and don’t know or care?”

Answer: “The kind who take a gun into a meeting with a middle school counselor.”

By yesiamworried

March 31, 2005 10:25 AM | Link to this

Too many mothers raising children by themselves. Sums up the problem.

By CD

March 31, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this

EXACTLY! How much parental supervision can there be when there is only one parent and she has to work two jobs to make ends meet because there is (in most cases) no dad????

Again, it is a matter of culture… A culture that says “I love sex, but none of the responsibility that can come as a result of it.”

And where is dad? Probably “keepin’ it realâ€? with his next girlfriend/victim/object in the Eastside Crunk Factory.

By Stacey

March 31, 2005 10:48 AM | Link to this

The problem is that the children are the product of the environment (people) they live in (with). This is not about color, religion,etc. Stupidity is color blind. What is really needed is a “felony stupid” on the law books. Like Larry said, what type of “idiot” would come to a meeting with a counselor with gun in her purse!!!!! So now the mother has felony battery on a police officer, carrying a concealed weapon. They need to add Felony stupid. That should be worth about 5 years.

By Larry

March 31, 2005 10:55 AM | Link to this

what is the famous line: Give them an inch, they will take a foot. But hey, no one will step up and say get your butt back in line just like everybody else. Why? Like i said before, we don’t want to be called racists. If you act like a fool you are a fool, regardless of race or culture!!!!!!!!!!! The problem is though not everybody thinks like me. Well, maybe CD!!!!!!!!

By Ann

March 31, 2005 10:55 AM | Link to this

How long do you think it will take for people to find a way to blame the school and the teachers for this psycho parent?

By Larry

March 31, 2005 11:01 AM | Link to this

No one wants to take responsibility for there actions. Most people want to blame someone or something else for the way they act or do things. I am sure it is the teachers that failed to help little johnny in the classroom. I am sure it is the school that failed little johnny. Heaven forbid that maybe the parents failed little johnny or that little johnny failed himself. But no, that never happens. The kids are perfect, just like their parents! RIGHT!

By David

March 31, 2005 11:10 AM | Link to this

CM…i am currently an ISS (in-school suspension) teacher in an east metro middle school….the reason they are not kicked out at many schools (mine included) is because the mentality exist not only with the kids and their parents, but also at the TOP/ADMINISTRATION of many of these schools…there seems to be this feeling of “you have had such a rough time , as your parents have, etc; etc;…you’ve been KEPT DOWN by the majority so we will give you as many chances as it takes for you to correct your behavior”…. and so many at the TOP are so DAMN blind…we are doing a diservice to these kids…black and white…BUT it happens to be majority BLACK…now lets face the music…also…with that said , let me say this, i am white, over the last 20 yrs of my teaching career…if i picked my top 20 kids, probably 12/13 were black…so if there is some idiot out there who wants to call me a racist…please try to hear my heart and not necessarily these cold words on here….facts are facts…and the sooner minorities face them the better off they will be…PARENTS: YOU HAVE A CHOICE….YOU CAN CHANGE YOURSELVES…YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SUBJECT YOUR CHILDREN TO THE DISADVANTAGES YOU HAD AS FAR AS RAISING THEM….MAKE INTELLIGENT CHOICES…STOP BELIEVING EVERYTHING THEY TELL YOU…I HAVE AN 18 YEAR OLD DAUGHTER AT HOME…WITH A 4.0 GPA …SHE WILL BE LEAVING FOR COLLEGE IN AUGUST…DO YOU THINK I BELIEVE EVERY DAMN THING SHE SAYS…?????

By Educated

March 31, 2005 11:13 AM | Link to this

First, I would like to say that I really expected a more diverse and educated read from this topic than what is posted. Instead, what is posted is mere stereotypical responses, Larry and CD to be exact. Krystal, I agree with you in respects that Larry’s comment was purely stereotypical and racist and CD, wow, that was totally uncalled for. Larry: You implied that these incidents don’t happen in predominately “white” schools and that in itself is a ignorant comment because yes, it does. YOU just don’t hear about them as they are not splattered in the news and blown out of context. If you take every detail that you hear in the news for face value, then you are just as ignorant as the persons broadcasting it. Please keep in mind and be aware that everything may not be as it seems, this woman probably keeps a hand gun on her at all times, not necessarily just slipped it in her bag specifically to go meet the guidance counselor. What is the difference between this woman carrying a handgun and someone else carrying one at all times and supports the NRA? Everyone is so quick to assume that because this woman is black, that she is automatically short tempered and violent natured. NEWS FLASH: NOT ALL BLACK PEOPLE ARE VIOLENT OR VIOLENT NATURED. Of course, what she did was wrong and she should be punished for it, but lets not “expect” this from her strictly because she is BLACK…there is a deeper issue going on here than color people….. CD: The incident with the 4 year old child slain at the hands of gang violence has nothing to do with this topic. Furthermore, lets not get into stereotyping cultures and rap music. Sure, there are plenty of songs that degrade women and such, however, lets not pin this on ONE particular culture. For the record, I see more white kids standing in line at the music stores with rap cd’s in their hands at the checkout line and riding down the street listening to it than I do any other race. Rap and violence is just not associated and does not just belong to ONE culture…..I can say that as a black woman, I don’t own a single rap CD because that is not my listening choice and because I am black does not mean that I embrace rap music and the degredation of women.

Can’t we just speak on this topic as if we don’t know what area this school is located and what race this parties involved are??

Wake up people, TROUBLE IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM IS NOT JUST A “BLACK” PROBLEM!

By Educated

March 31, 2005 11:26 AM | Link to this

Furthermore,

Instead of pointing fingers and saying “it’s just the black kids”, I ask you this: As an AMERICAN, what are YOU willing to do to correct the problem with the education system”

How or what contributions will YOU make to improve the system???

By Earl

March 31, 2005 11:33 AM | Link to this

Yo Educated (oh really). In a whiter school this would be huge problem. In a blacker school it seems to be a minor issue cause it happens more frequently. We’re awake out here in the northern suburbs. We call em like we see em and have our views just like you’ve got yours. It’s probably better to not even tell us about this crap. You know what we’ll say.

By Larry

March 31, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this

Educated, then tell me why aren’t these incidents broadcasted on the news about white students? Why?, I will tell you why, because they don’t happen on a daily basis! Now who is the ignorant one! The news media would be crazy not to report these type of actions if white students committed them. They would then be called racists wouldn’t they? The difference in this woman caring a hand gun and a person who belongs to the NRA- any who knows anything about caring a hand gun should know that hand guns or any kind of weapon are not allowed on school grounds PERIOD!!!!!!!! It states it clearly on the back of a hand gun license. Please tell me how my comments are sterotypical? Why? Because I state the TRUTH!!!!!!!!!! Ignorance is not listening to the TRUTH or the FACTS! Apparently you need to go back to school to get a BETTER EDUCATION!

By Educated

March 31, 2005 11:47 AM | Link to this

Earl,

You are sad…and you thinking that is really how things are, that is even more sad…..

You are all so quick to point the finger and blame these incidents on just one ethnic group. Again, I ask, how will YOU in your “northern suburbs” help correct the problem??? Instead of finger pointing, what will YOU do to help the problem??? Or is this just a blog to sit back and bash and not suggest or help make improvements???

Can we turn this conversation into a positive and talk about improvements and solutions?

By Larry

March 31, 2005 11:49 AM | Link to this

Educated, i never said anything about this being a racial issue. If you want to get technical however, lets look at the graduation rates of the races, the gpa’s of the races, the sat/act scores of the races, the dropout rates of the races, the crimes committed by the races. Oh wait, those are bone chilling facts. You don’t want to here the truth though!!!!!!! Why-IGNORANCE!!!!!!!!! This is not my opinion-this is FACT!!!!

By Larry

March 31, 2005 11:56 AM | Link to this

I have made suggestions. Get the students who don’t want to be in school (WHITE BLACK ORANGE GREEN YELLOW) and put them in some kind of trade school or military boot camp to help straighten them out. And yes, this is how things are and I am not pointing the finger at any one ethnic group. If looking at the facts are sad, then so be it.

By Educated

March 31, 2005 11:57 AM | Link to this

Larry,

You are pathetic. I watch the news DAILY and I do not see news stories about negative school incidents in the news daily…what channel are YOU watching. Also, sweetie, I have PLENTY of education, probably more than you do, so let’s not go there. Trust me, you don’t want to start throwing credentials on the table. Besides, that is not what this topic is about. And since you seem to be so opinionated and racist, why don’t YOU answer my question posted earlier about what contributions YOU are willing to make for change?????

By Jennifer

March 31, 2005 11:58 AM | Link to this

Educated:

Culture is defined as the following: “1. a. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought. b. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population.”

Ethnicity has nothing to do with culture. Call it a culture of poverty or a gansta culture or whatever, but I know for a fact that there are people of all ethnicities who are part of those cultures.

Also, whether she routinely carries a gun or not, she THREATENED the counselor, RESISTED arrest, and she PUNCHED the police officer! Having a gun on her person is almost irrelevant at this point—she still has no respect for authority, which is likely the same problem the school was attempting to address with her child.

As an aside, how does race keep getting dragged into this? I’ll be honest, I read my news, so I never saw a tv broadcast which revealed her race. Patti doesn’t bring up race at all when she writes her blogs on these topics. Are people just assuming based on the school/city, or are you privy to information that I am not?

By Earl

March 31, 2005 12:01 PM | Link to this

I don’t want to do anything to correct the problem and can’t think of a single thing to do anyway. Someone will probably say I need to pay more in taxes to fix this. That the 40K I’ll pay this year isn’t enough. You fix it. That’s why I live here and not there. Let the community that has to endure this kind of rage deal with it.

By Educated

March 31, 2005 12:05 PM | Link to this

Thank you Jennifer. That is my point exactly. These people are just quick to assume that because this is Redan High School, and because of the severity of this woman’s actions, oh then “she must be black”……

Race has NOTHING to do with this discussion, we should be talking about promoting change and solutions for all schools, whether in the city or suburbs…..

By Larry

March 31, 2005 12:12 PM | Link to this

Hey educated, the news also includes radio, magazines, newspapers, internet etc. Not just tv. Oh wait, apparently you cannot read either because I did make a suggestion in my last blog about what to do with students who don’t want to be in school. I will throw out education credentials. I have a BS in Education, a Masters in Education, a Sixth Year Degree in Educational Leadership, and I am currently working on my Ph.D. Lets not go there. This is all fact too! Hey why can’t you answer me about the above questions in regards of dropout rate, graduation rate, GPA’s etc. If you are so educated, you can at least admit when you are wrong or have bitten off more than you can chew. I have made no racial statements, just the truth! And the TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Jennifer

March 31, 2005 12:13 PM | Link to this

As for what I’m willing to do, as an American, to solve this problem….

I can’t fix what people won’t admit is broken. I worked in public schools both here and in MD, and I have to say that until discipline is allowed back in public schools, they’re lost.

I was told by my Cobb Co. school that I could neither place kids in after-school detention nor lunch detention. Reason being? I cannot REQUIRE a parent to find transportation to bring their child home, and I cannot DEPRIVE a child of the lunch period, even though they’d be eating lunch in my room. For teachers, like myself, who have a rules & consequences discipline philosophy, it’s virtually impossible for us to maintain order in a classroom since we have no consequences available to us.

I’m doing the only thing that I can do: I’m homeschooling my child. Is it easy? No. Do I do it alone? No. I partner with a school so that my child can be in a class twice a week, and I do the follow-up lessons at home. That’s all I can do. Our sue-happy society has placed such pressure on the public school system that their hands are often tied.

As another aside, I lived at or slightly above the poverty level as a child. We had no car, and I had to rely on the bus to get to and from school. My mother informed me, in no uncertain terms, that if I EVER was placed in detention, that I would not only be severely punished, but that I was also responsible for walking the 4 miles home. That was definitely a deterent, and I kept myself in check. My school wasn’t perfect—we had knife fights, gangs, etc., but our administrators had some options and they were able to remove the worst of the bunch from the school.

By Educated

March 31, 2005 12:15 PM | Link to this

Jennifer,

I did not bring race into the discussion, Larry did. Also, in no way am I implying that this woman’s actions were in any way justified. No one should put their hands on anyone else, furthermore as an adult behave in that manner. I am just offended that everyone is automatically assuming that this woman is black and that this is what goes on ALL THE TIME is the black community and black schools and that is not the truth at all.

By Larry

March 31, 2005 12:19 PM | Link to this

Please just answer my questions “EDUCATED ONE!”

By Lisa Gray

March 31, 2005 12:22 PM | Link to this

So how can anyone expect teachers and schools tp be held accountable for this child’s attitude and learning … ?

By Jennifer

March 31, 2005 12:26 PM | Link to this

Educated:

I’m just as offended as you about everyone bringing race into this—it has nothing to do with it. I’ve worked in both predominately white and predominately black schools, and across the board, my white kids were often worse to deal with & caused more problems. When I call to mind memories of my 5 worst kids (drugs/violence/lack of respect for authority, etc.), 3 out of 5 were white. So, when I read articles like this, I often think of their faces and those of their parents. The problem with the schools goes beyond race and beyond a particular school—it’s a systemic problem, and one that is going to be tough to overcome.

By Larry

March 31, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this

Lisa, I am sorry to say we can’t because of politicans and so called “Educated People” who are not in the classrooms on a daily basis and see what goes on DAILY!

By Educated

March 31, 2005 12:32 PM | Link to this

Larry, It is ashame to have so many degrees and be that ignorant. Im going to agree to disagree with you because you are racist and that’s just that. I KNOW the truth dear, I see it just like everyone else, however what I am saying is that don’t just pick out the wrongs in the black community schools as if the white schools have no flaws. Black schools are not the only schools in the news. Black schools are not the ONLY schools that have education issues. People, stop being so racist.

By Educated

March 31, 2005 12:42 PM | Link to this

Jennifer,

My school aged background was much like yours. My mother and father wouldn’t put up with any nonsense from my brothers and I in school. We attended private school and they were paying for our education so that made it even more of a no-no to misbehave. When I was in school, school officials were still able to spank disobedient children….that was a long time ago. I really feel sorry for teachers these days because they have no disciplinary leverage. The kids more or less run the classroom making it difficult for those who are actually there to learn. And let’s not get into the salaries for teachers….you guys should be getting paid far more than what the current salary ranges are.

By Larry

March 31, 2005 12:50 PM | Link to this

How am I racist. Because you don’t like the facts and figures. You don’t like the truth. Now, who is the ignorant one. I never said that white schools/students are better than black ones. Stop and think for a minute-who called who racist? I did not call you a racist because of your opinions (NO FACTS LISTED BY THE WAY!)What is the truth DEAR? I am still waiting for the truth! Please tell me what it is!!!!! Please answer my questions too!!! These questions are not in least way racist! Well maybe in your eyes, but not mine. Again, just facts!!!!!!!!

By Amy W.

March 31, 2005 12:58 PM | Link to this

wow. its amazing to see so many pig-headed, ignorant people on this blog. and i somehow doubt that larry has all the degrees he claims. unless he attended some crappy redneck school (which may very well be the case), he should know better.

By Larry

March 31, 2005 01:08 PM | Link to this

For your info Amy, my BS Columbia Uni. my Masters Columbia Uni.(4.0 GPA)IVY LEAGUE COLUMBIA in NEW YORK, my sixth year degree Uni. of Connecticut (4.0 GPA), my Ph.D in progress Emory Uni. All of that education at the age of 32. Amy, how is that for redneck education. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it! You are not even on the same playing field with me when it comes to an intellectual conversation.

By DR

March 31, 2005 01:10 PM | Link to this

Larry,

Please tell us if you are in an administrative position at a school, so I can make sure that my child is not there. I work in a suburban middle school were the incidents of discipline are running neck to neck black and white. Yesterday a (white) parent approached an African American teacher in the parking lot and told her that she felt threatened by the way she was wearing her hair in the natural afro style. She told her that black people who wear there hair that way belonged to militant black groups. Now I tell you this, this is a parent rearing her child to be an idiot and I probably will have to teach this idiot. If this is what is being taught at home, I don’t have a chance. Lovett, Westminster, and other schools are not immune; they have different types of issues, teen sex, alcohol and drugs. Why? Because most come from affluent families with parents working very hard to maintain a certain way of life and the sacrifice of that usually is at the child’s expense. All ethnicities have problems. When parents stop trying to be there children’s friend and start being a parent, we might have a chance.

By Observer

March 31, 2005 01:12 PM | Link to this

Wow. After reading some of your comments, it’s no surprise to me why adolescents so often resort to violence to work things out. Apparently, grown adults can’t even express their differing opinions in a civil manner. And to discover that some of the people exhibiting the worst behavior on this blog are actually educators, well, how can we hold our students and their parents up to a higher standard than what we’re willing to meet ourselves? No doubt, there are widespread systematic problems with education in our country, but name-calling and race-baiting aren’t going to solve them. Maybe instead of pointing an accusing finger at everyone but ourselves, we should take a look at how we can work together to improve the lot for all of us. And to those in ‘northern’ neighborhoods who feel that poor education in other neighborhoods isn’t their problem, I would encourage you to think again. It will come out of your pocket somehow, some way, somewhere down the line, whether by taxes, welfare or theft. Access to a good education and/or job skills training is a necessary ingredient for a safe and civilized society.

By Larry

March 31, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this

I have been civil, I have just stated facts, not opinions!

By Amy W.

March 31, 2005 01:18 PM | Link to this

i’m sorry, but unless i see the degrees, i don’t believe it. and for the record, i’m happy i didn’t apply to emory’s ed program if they accepted people like yourself.

besides, a phd student who was educated at uconn, columbia, and emory really wouldn’t sound like a whiny 10 year old.

By Lacy

March 31, 2005 01:25 PM | Link to this

Wow, this topic degenerated quickly. Larry, I agree with your comments, and what a lot of people didn’t see what the other common denominator in your list of schools that don’t have problems like these—they are also schools with primarily a higher socioeconomic status. To me, this seems like a bigger factor than anything. Black/white/yellow whatever—it seems like these things happen more often in schools that have a more transient and impoverished student body. Yes, of course there are many exceptions—there are poor kids who behave and learn, and there are rich kids who act up/are violent/whatever. You can never make a total generalization. But it seems to me (notice I didn’t title myself “Educated,” so you have no reason to think I know what I’m talking about) that socioeconomics play a larger role than race alone. You don’t see many rich black parents showing up to a conference talking about “that ain’t my kid’s fault… they be doin’ dey bidness.” But you might see it from uneducated parents of any race.

By C.M.

March 31, 2005 01:26 PM | Link to this

Amy and Educated, stick to the facts, throw out education with Larry and atleast ponder his statements. What do you propose for education? What is a redneck school anyway? Do you know where the term red neck came from? I think Larry has several VALID points. (Mudslinging was not one of them!)Hey Doc, why are you calling your possible future student an idiot? sounds like racism.

By Larry

March 31, 2005 01:26 PM | Link to this

This shows me how educated you are- you have to stoop to name calling to make-up for lack of education. Name calling is what 5 year olds do. Believe what you want. I don’t have to prove a thing to an uneducated person like yourself.

By C.M.

March 31, 2005 01:29 PM | Link to this

Neenie Neenie, you guys are meanies

By hildymac

March 31, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this

Wow… dang… y’all are turning this conversation all violent. I feel safer looking at my suspended kids right now than reading this. :^D No, seriously, I agree - if they can’t hack a normal school, regardless of color or culture, then they need to be elsewhere so they don’t disrupt the learning environments of people who want to learn. That being said, the alternative school I teach at (which is made up of those very kids) is probably about 85% African American, 9% hispanic, and 6% white. The kids from the mainly black schools are the ones that make up our largest population here. Why is that? It’s because of the culture of violence that goes through their minds, and that is NOT their race’s fault. It’s the fault of mass media telling them it’s ok to be in gangs, get into fights, and disrespect their teachers for “keeping them down.” Until someone realizes that they’re the ones that are keeping themselves down with ignorant behavior (and this goes for my white and Hispanic kids too) then they’re never going to get better… students or parents. Sorry, but looking at my class of 17 kids right now, 3 are white, and 3 are Hispanic, and there are a grand total of 6 white kids out of 45 in the middle school. This isn’t because of race, it’s because of what is deemed acceptable by parents and culture - a culture which, might I add, not all African Americans share.

By DR

March 31, 2005 01:34 PM | Link to this

Lacy,

You are correct - this is a problem with the socioeconomic classes, not ethnicities. Any race that doesnt have the economic means is almost always in an unfair advantage of being poorly educated.

By cp

March 31, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this

Observer, very good post. Dead on. And you’re right; it does cost all. Every time GA comes in ranked 49th or 50th in SAT scores, it costs us jobs and money. And don’t tell me we have a higher participation rate — a third of the states have participation rates as high as ours — we’re still last.

I am shocked by the info contributed by Jen and Jennifer. These are clues to the real underlying problems. How do we get these issues in front of the politicians? You know, the ones who are distracted by putting stickers in biology books and changing to block scheduling with “phantom” classes.

Every time you hear about a concerned parent who has resorted to homeschooling, we are that much closer to the collapse of public education in this state. Time is running out.

By C.M.

March 31, 2005 01:48 PM | Link to this

I have YET to meet an “INVOLVED” parent that has a child reffered too in this blog REGARDLESS of socioeconomic status.

By Amy W.

March 31, 2005 01:53 PM | Link to this

i’ll admit i said some childish remarks, but i’m FOR SURE not the only one….as larry so eloquently put it,”name calling is for 5 year olds”….

I knew some narrow minded nit wit would bring up the school shootings.

CD, your are applying logic to a person that has the IQ of a lima bean.

Oh wait, apparently you cannot read either because…

you want to have an intelligent conversation, larry? fine with me. no where in your statements do you actually say that these children actually want to LEAVE their schools. why? because they know that leaving school will most likely hurt their chances for success instead of help it.

to be honest, i think there needs to be a massive change in the current educational system, particularly in the administration of urban schools. part of the problem is funding, i.e. lack of resources; part of the problem are teachers who tend to hold such economically disadvantaged students at lower standards (not all, but some) and treat them like dogs, and part of the problem is that as a larger community many people just assume that these people don’t possess the same “hardworking,” ethical/moral values that we do. reform won’t happen unless these policies/views change.

By C.M.

March 31, 2005 01:54 PM | Link to this

It does not take $$$ to teach morals and self respect

By Enlightened One (formerly CD)

March 31, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

I hope you don’t mind me changing my name. Since “Educated” believes using such a moniker carries with it an intrinsic sense of being, I thought I could cash in on the “I named myself, and therefore I am” logic.

The trouble is, that if she was so “educated” she would have seen my point. I am glad she did not include me in her description of who brought race in the discussion. I do not know the race of the woman and will not attempt to guess. I was speaking about C-U-L-T-U-R-E. And, as Jennifer pointed out (THANK YOU!) culture is not tied to any one subgroup.

Educated: Your arguments have many holes.

1: “The incident with the 4 year old child slain at the hands of gang violence has nothing to do with this topic…”

You are wrong. They are not mutually exclusive. Kids who behave like that draw their cues through SOCIALIZATION. It’s bad enough that they get it in music (see #5), etc. But a kid who learns it from home is in for the worst because parents have the largest impact on a child’s learning and socialization. I’d be willing to bet that the child of any mother who THREATENES a counselor, RESISTS arrest, and she PUNCHES a police officer is probably not too different. Maybe that explains why mom was in the counselor’s office to begin with and why things grew to the level they did. “Mom does it… so can I.�

2: “…this woman probably keeps a hand gun on her at all times, not necessarily just slipped it in her bag specifically to go meet the guidance counselor…�

Maybe so… but I bet she doesn’t take it on a PLANE… or into COURT. Why not then??? I-L-L-E-G-A-L. So, we now know she has disregard for the law… another GREAT quality to teach her child.

3: “Everyone is so quick to assume that because this woman is black…�

Who said she was black? And since the answer is “no one�… your argument “NOT ALL BLACK PEOPLE ARE VIOLENT OR VIOLENT NATURED�, while true, has no merit here.

4: “But let’s not “expect� this from her strictly because she is BLACK.�

See #3

5: “Furthermore, lets not get into stereotyping cultures and rap music�

Why not??? You show me another form of music that has a higher percentage of parent advisory labels than rap. You won’t find one. The percentage of advisory labels to titles is the highest in the industry. I don’t see classical artists “driving by� in a flurry of bullets. Tupac and Biggie Smalls were not country artists. We CAN pin this on ONE particular culture.

6: I see more white kids standing in line at the music stores with rap cd’s in their hands at the checkout line and riding down the street listening to it than I do any other race.

And??? Still the same culture.
You seem to have a problem separating Culture and Race/Ethnicity. They are not the same. When someone comments on a Culture, they are not specifically attacking a Race/Ethnicity, even if that Race/Ethnicity makes up a large percentage of that Culture. But you knew that…. Because you are “Educated�

7: “As an AMERICAN, what are YOU willing to do to correct the problem…�

It’s not everyone’sproblem. That culture created it. Why is it always someone else’s (or the government’s) job to fix their problems????

DR did the discussion justice by showing there is white ignorance, too. And Lacy wins for seeing the socioeconomic association. But who is the poorest? The mom working two jobs because dad’s culture says women are sex objects, not people, and it’s perfectly acceptable to impregnate them and walk out. (Check the latest “born-to-single-parents� stats.)

I’m talking CULTURE not RACE.

By cp

March 31, 2005 02:02 PM | Link to this

What about giving the teachers the tools they need? What about consequences?

Maybe somebody should ASK the teachers — and for that matter, the students what the problems are.

By DR

March 31, 2005 02:04 PM | Link to this

CM,

You’re missing the big picture, if the parent is struggling to make ends meet, making minimum wage and working two and three jobs - when does she have the time to teach morals and respect? She should find the time; of course! But please live in the reality in which millions of Americans (no matter what race) live in every day. POVERTY. Do you think a child cares about succeeding when they know that the lunch they get at school might be the only food they have for the entire day?

By JD

March 31, 2005 02:18 PM | Link to this

After reading all the comments, I see why Georgia is always either last or second to last in the education. It has been stated before, the adults are not educated. We all know and recognize that the only information we hear about is what is in the news. No one ever knows what is really going on in the schools. If it matters, I am a black female that grew up in Alpharetta in the late 80’s. My first high school was Milton High School. At Milton they use to duck tape other students to the walls, set the desk on fire, pass drugs in the halls, the parents would buy kegs for the parties on the weekends, and then there would be the ever increase race fights started by the kids in the majority. I left Milton for my safety and for my education. When I transferred to Riverwood I found that I was GROSSLY unprepared for college. In fact if I would have graduated from Milton I probably would not be where I am now.

If you remember the AJC’s article that stated our children are so lacking in education the kids that were steller on the SAT’s and had 3.5 GPA still had to be placed in remedial classes when they went to college. Do you know why? Too many of our children were taught how to pass test, but now how to write and think. For example we have so many test the teachers are spending too much class time preparing the children to pass these test and not enough time on any of the regular basics.

Yes a child acting out in class does take away a teachers ability to teach the rest of the class, but on the other side the teachers do not have the resources to find out why this child is acting out. 35 students to 1 teacher is not effective. Some kids may be acting out because they are advanced yet they are stuck learning remedial work. Some act out because they spend entirely too much time playing video games and watching t.v. that they do not now how to sit still and learn anything. And some act out because there is some learning deficiency that no one has identified yet.

There should be different places for children with different education levels. But that does not mean we lock them up in minnie prision with the name of schools on the outside. And until our society learns how to value an education, our education system will always fail.

The garbage man, athletes, and movie stars should not be paid/valued more than the people who are in charge of educating our futures.

The majority has agreed that we should not point fingers, yet end the end point fingers. Stop pointing, find answers, and offer solutions.

Here is one solution: change the cirrculum, add more EDUCATION money (not just for building prettier buildings, i.e. books), and understand that not every child is at a certain level and educate the kids on their level.

By Jennifer

March 31, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this

DR: YES! A child cares about succeeding when school lunch is the only guaranteed meal! Shoot, I learned that I needed to get an education from both my mother’s direct influence AND the indirect influence of observing various uneducated relatives’ lives. We didn’t have much growing up, but it was made quite clear to me that education was the only way that I’d live a better life & get out of my situation. So what did I do? I kept my grades up, went to college, & made a good life for myself. I agree that socio-economics play a role, but simply being poor & working a lot doesn’t absolve you of being responsible for your child’s moral instruction.

By C.M.

March 31, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this

Msteven, For Petes Sake! ….Most gothics are off the charts IQ! Check that one out!

By Amy W.

March 31, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this

you’re right— money doesn’t teach respect or morals. however, you’re also assuming that all of the people who have problems in school lack such characteristics, which is not true. think about what you mean by that statement. your argument is that regardless of the amount of money a school district has, such children will always fail because they do not possess “hard working” qualities such as diligence, perserverance, and respect. my intention is not to label you; however— don’t you find that a little stereotypical?

By David

March 31, 2005 02:28 PM | Link to this

msteven…you got a point…i’ve been teaching almost 20 yrs….you don’t see blacks shooting up the school,,,that’s a good example…i detest the gothic lifestyle that i see now with kids (all white from my experience and most come from RICH parents, not good parents, there is a difference) …and i truly believe that if you ever become friends with a black person you can count on having a friend for life…BUT it’s that thug attitude…and the babying by their parents and MANY SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS that really gets to me…

By Larry

March 31, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this

Amy, the kids are not asking to leave their schools, they are trying to leave through their behavior. The students come to school for entertainment to enhance their culture through “THEIR” socialization skills which have been instilled in them through an obvious lack much needed home training. That is the whole point of the conversation. I can admit that I did use some name calling. At least I can admit when I am wrong! What does white people eating others have to do with this topic. I am not saying in anyway that white people are perfect, never have never will. All races have their undesirables. On your comment about how some white women like black meat-very tastless and crude. I would expect more… from a well educated black man like yourself. Well this proves my point. You can’t always judge a book by its cover!!!!!!!!!!!! The culture we are all discussing has a nonexistant value system. It is a feel good society-do what you want, when you want, regardless of the consequences and the affect it has on others.

By Larry

March 31, 2005 02:42 PM | Link to this

Amy, the kids are not asking to leave their schools, they are trying to leave through their behavior. The students come to school for entertainment to enhance their culture through “THEIR” socialization skills which have been instilled in them through an obvious lack of much needed home training. That is the whole point of the conversation. I can admit that I did use some name calling. At least I can admit when I am wrong! What does white people eating others have to do with this topic. I am not saying in anyway that white people are perfect, never have never will. All races have their undesirables. On your comment about how some white women like black meat-very tastless and crude. I would expect more… from a well educated black man like yourself. Well this proves my point. You can’t always judge a book by its cover!!!!!!!!!!!! The culture we are all discussing has a nonexistant value system. It is a feel good society-do what you want, when you want, regardless of the consequences and the affect it has on others.

By Amy W.

March 31, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this

you’re right— money doesn’t teach respect or morals. however, you’re also assuming that all of the people who have problems in school lack such characteristics, which is not true. think about what you mean by that statement. your argument is that regardless of the amount of money a school district has, such children will always fail because they do not possess “hard working” qualities such as diligence, perseverance, and respect. my intention is not to label you; however— don’t you find that a little stereotypical?

By Earl

March 31, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this

Hey formally CD - little too much time on your hands?

By C.M.

March 31, 2005 03:00 PM | Link to this

Agreed, BUT that is not total reality. I know of numerous (5) parents actually that have two jobs and the child is not a jerk, and has and shows respect for everyone. Do children get angry if they are missing a parent or not getting the attention they need? YUP! you betcha, but even as adults somewhere somehow down your life path you have to make choices,…….Do I remain bitter? or do something about it? Somewhere a decision about life has to be answered. Do I continue to blame __ for my problems or Do I own my life and get on with it. Hmmm? with a government so eager to help one, it is much easier to blame and point fingers and throw a race card or anything to hide the little secret.

By Lacy

March 31, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

MSteven, you make several good points—before you drifted off into some kind of Stream of Consciousness diatribe. It is usually white kids/people who do the outright “crazy,” things (Chris Rock has an entire bit about it). But that’s not the point of this discussion. Here is an excellent example of a major problem with our schools—students who have no respect/behavioural problems because they don’t learn any respect or obedience from their parents. If a parent acts this way, what else is a child supposed to think? So blame it on their culture/television/music whatever—but at the root of the problem is the parent. So the real question is what factors make a parent think that this is appropriate behavior? Because we are totally the product of the people who raise us.

And DR: A student eating a single meal SHOULD care about succeeding and learning. It doesn’t take too much intelligence to tell you that if you work hard and study hard, maybe you can better yourself and your lot in life, and ensure that your future kids don’t eat one meal a day.

By DR

March 31, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

WOW! What does all of this have to do with the kids and trying to educate them to the best of our abilities? Jennifer you are very correct, being poor doesn’t absolve you - unfortunately I feel that you a one of the very fortunate few who have seemed to make it. I also agree that the culture at this present moment continues to devalue themselves and the importance of an education. Money and Bling-Bling is the major focus, because that is what sells everything from cell phones to hamburgers. Everyone needs to admit that we all play a role in it. You say no - well when you patronize a business that markets sex to young people you have just played your part. MSteven, just because you don’t like the Gothic way doesn’t mean that you have to disrespect it. I have a wonderful student you is “GOTHIC”, he makes straight A’s. He’s respectful and sweet. Let’s not make generalizations.

By DR

March 31, 2005 03:25 PM | Link to this

WOW! What does all of this have to do with the kids and trying to educate them to the best of our abilities? Jennifer you are very correct, being poor doesn’t absolve you - unfortunately I feel that you a one of the very fortunate few who have seemed to make it. I also agree that the culture at this present moment continues to devalue themselves and the importance of an education. Money and Bling-Bling is the major focus, because that is what sells everything from cell phones to hamburgers. Everyone needs to admit that we all play a role in it. You say no - well when you patronize a business that markets sex to young people you have just played your part. MSteven, just because you don’t like the Gothic way doesn’t mean that you have to disrespect it. I have a wonderful student you is “GOTHIC”, he makes straight A’s. He’s respectful and sweet. Let’s not make generalizations.

By DR

March 31, 2005 03:31 PM | Link to this

Lacy, Yes they should however there children and maybe they dont understand at that exact moment that education is there ticket to better living. And I said it before - parents are to worried about being their friends, they dont upset them or punish them because it will hurt their self esteem.

By C.M.

March 31, 2005 03:36 PM | Link to this

Wow, Msteven and Amy are SILLY and Pathetic, I never said the things you are saying I said or thought! how do either of you know what I think. I never said anything about a school districts money I NEVER said anything about children always failing! My arguement was that parent(s) socioeconomic status has NOTHING to do with teaching right from wrong! As far as Gothics, I do not care a bit for the look in any form. The fact that both of you have put words in my mouth turns my stomach. Maybe you both should pay attention instead of being so quick to make up things that I never said.ANGER, ANGER, where is the love?

By DR

March 31, 2005 03:38 PM | Link to this

Lacy,

They should but their children and maybe at that particular moment they cant rationalize there ticket to better living is an education. I’m not giving any excuses just working with students I hear their words. Also parents are too concerned with being their friends - they dont want to punish and discipline, because it will hurt their feelings and self esteem. Have a great day everyone.

By Lacy

March 31, 2005 03:39 PM | Link to this

You have totally lost me now MSteven. And maybe I’m the exception, but I have definitely had racist remarks come at me from black people (especially black women). Racists come in all colors, and just because you are black doesn’t mean you are “accepting.” How often? Um, lots. Probably more often than whites bashing blacks at my school.

You started your posts sounding sincere, educated (while somewhat confusing), and enlightened. Now you’re sounding ignorant and immature… not to mention illiterate. This woman didn’t bring a gun to school and threaten a counselor because the counselor made racist remarks, so why are you getting so crazy and upset? Yes, people on this blog have made or inferred some racist remarks—but so have you! I suppose a black person by definition cannot be racist?

By C.M.

March 31, 2005 03:46 PM | Link to this

Wow, Msteven and Amy are SILLY and Pathetic, I never said the things you are saying I said or thought! how do either of you know what I think. I never said anything about a school districts money I NEVER said anything about children always failing! My arguement was that parent(s) socioeconomic status has NOTHING to do with teaching right from wrong! As far as Gothics, I do not care a bit for the look in any form. The fact that both of you have put words in my mouth turns my stomach. Maybe you both should pay attention instead of being so quick to make up things that I never said. You sound like an Angry girl that lost “yo” man to a “black meat loving white girl” get over yourself, I am not mad at anybody nor have any affiliation with the klan my angry friend. LOVE, where is the love?

By White Threat

March 31, 2005 03:51 PM | Link to this

Racism = race + power. Lacy, blacks, by circumstance, cannot be racist in the United States of America.

By C.M.

March 31, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this

Wow, Msteven and Amy are SILLY and Pathetic, I never said the things you are saying I said or thought! how do either of you know what I think. I never said anything about a school districts money I NEVER said anything about children always failing! My arguement was that parent(s) socioeconomic status has NOTHING to do with teaching right from wrong! As far as Gothics, I do not care a bit for the look in any form. The fact that both of you have put words in my mouth turns my stomach. Maybe you both should pay attention instead of being so quick to make up things that I never said.

By CD Again

March 31, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this

Earl: Nope.. there was a several hour break… I like to engage brain before mouth.

JD… Let me let you in on a secret. As long as kids get OUT of school because of a test, INTO schools from a test and teachers get judged by tests… that’s all the world will care about and focus on.

Or would you prefer we give them credit for “effort” and socially promote them?

By The White Threat

March 31, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this

Racism = race + power. Lacy, by circumstance, blacks cannot be racist in the United States of America.

Just thought I would let you know.

By smithy

March 31, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this

There is an entire generation of kids who are being raised by one parent, go completely unsupervised and undisciplined, and have an astounding lack of respect for authority. This is a fact in every race, creed, nationality, whatever you want to call it. People should not be having children if they can’t afford to raise them and can’t give them the ethical and moral foundation they need to be productive citizens. If you make minimum wage, you have no business having kids. If you aren’t married, you have no business having kids. If all you have to teach children is a “victim” mentality, you should not be having kids. Over 70% of black children born in 2004 were born to unwed mothers. That’s nothing short of pathetic and reeks of a culture where promiscuity and absolutely no regard for personal responsibility are the norm.

By amazed

March 31, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this

all of you people are crazy…especially Larry the educated fool

By Quentin

March 31, 2005 04:39 PM | Link to this

MSteven. I actually sold you fake crack - I ripped you off. Let me guess. You’re really not a disgruntled black man. You’re posin. You’re actually a soccer mom in Alpharetta playin us. Pretending she can’t spell and come up interesting things to say.

By Stacey

March 31, 2005 04:45 PM | Link to this

For all the time and effort that was put in these emails, just think how much could be done with that much brain power? I wonder how many children have fallen through the cracks while “we’ve” been writing these notes. I for one am going to go home and make sure that my child becomes a productive member of society.