Get Schooled

By Vicki

March 2, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this

well done! Wouldn’t it be nice if Ga teachers finally stood up for themselves?

By Tyler

March 3, 2005 09:15 AM | Link to this

Gerogia’s teacher’s union is a joke. So, is Purdue’s dedication to education. Cobb county is spending millions on computers to give to students who can’t even keep tabs on their text books. Remember text book fines for damage? How much are you going to charge students for coloring on their computer, or accidentally breaking the CD-ROM drive? Good books, good teachers, and good parents make good students, case closed. Hold all accountable, and I’ve just solved the education problem in GA. I won’t even bother wasting my time on “intelligent design.”

By Cliff Mozelle

March 3, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this

What a bunch of babies! Do your job the why it’s supposed to be done - or quit and get into the private sector where you’ll probably make more money for working the “overtime”. They’re such victims…..we feel so sorry for their plight. HA!

By T. R.

March 3, 2005 10:31 AM | Link to this

Good for them!

By S W

March 3, 2005 10:49 AM | Link to this

Honestly, I’m proud of them. It’s one thing to love what you do and not be paid that much for it, but there comes a point where you just have to draw the line. I work in a school system myself, and while the notion of working with children was a noble one at the time that I left a corporate environment to work for a school, I do have to admit that as time goes on, the novelty wears off and the love of the students, while never being eliminated, does fall to the background when you’re constantly being told that the money just isn’t in the budget to pay for a raise (especially considering the fact that the cost of living, ESPECIALLY IN CALIFORNIA, continues to rise). The money is there, they just want to do other things with it. And after a while, principle sets in. And that’s when you decide to only do what you’re being (under)paid to do. Why should teachers work around the clock and then go home and not be able to make ends meet? As far as the earlier comment by Cliff Mozelle is concerned, what would you do if every underpaid teacher (which is pretty much every teacher) decided to “get into the private sector” when they were tired of being underpaid? Not only would you have high turnover, you eventually wouldn’t have any teachers.

By Derek

March 3, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this

Imagine how little would get done in our society if private sector employees took this stance. They already work less time during the year than most people and get benefits that surpass most professions, and now they are balking at doing anything extra. I know many teachers go into the profession because that is their passion. But any teacher like Ms. Bodenhauser who brags about infringing upon her students’ education by not doing her job, is not part of that group and should not only not get a raise, but should be fired. That’s about what would happen to me after I told my manager I refused to work one of our overnight special projects. Of course, we also must remember that this is BERKELEY, home of the liberal nutcase.

By Derek

March 3, 2005 11:14 AM | Link to this

To SW:

I am so tired of hearing how “underpaid” teachers are! Sure, if you look at raw pay that might lag others with a four year degree. However, you cannot fairly discount several factors (and I had a teacher for a roommate for almost four years so I have first hand knowledge of many aspects of a teacher’s life):

When you factor in these points, teachers are not underpaid. If you only look at the raw dollars, you might could make this argument, but that would be an unfair analysis. Frankly, teachers have a great deal…I would LOVE to have that two months in the summer to pursue some of my interests. What would keep me from pursuing a career in education is one major point: I have zero desire to work for the government.

By David

March 3, 2005 11:19 AM | Link to this

I respect and admire the work that our teachers do, BUT…. In the real world, many private sector companies have suspended pay raises. Are teachers paid by the hour or by salary? If you are on salary - do your job and shut up! If you do not do the duties that your job entails you should be fired. And if you dont like your little teaching job with 3 months off - go get a job in the real world. No one is twisting your arm and making you stay. Stop cheating the parents and children and give them the education thay deserve and pay for with their tax dollars. Better yet, go find a job that you enjoy, or start your own business and see what your services are really worth. With any other job you may get 2 weeks off after your probationary 6 months. Grow up and stop acting like the children that you are teaching!

By David

March 3, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

Also… If my daughter’s teacher did not return my calls, and was not grading my childs work, I would be in the principals office - with the teacher, discussing the failure of that teacher to do their job! But we all know how rarely anyone gets fired for ‘poor job performance’ in the public sector. Sorry to rant :-)

By Ernest

March 3, 2005 12:14 PM | Link to this

I agree with David’s points. Based on the way the article was written, I’d be curious to see how the contract was written they be compensated, based on hour or by the task. It has been said that in order to REALLY reform our school systems, the first thing that would need to happen for for teacher’s unions be eliminated. How can we find the proper role for the union (addressing grievances, work conditions, etc.) and actually doing the job?

By Lora Billinger

March 3, 2005 12:19 PM | Link to this

It is a very sad, sad situation that the richest country in the world cannot afford to pay our teachers what they truly deserve; we pay professional athletes top salaries, but cannot afford to pay teachers who are trained to teach and mold students for future careers; unfortunately, the students and the community suffer; on the other hand, parents need to take the first responsibility in assisting teachers by challenging their children the moment they are able to read; get involve with their education; teachers cannot “teach” our children alone and it is very sad that we are placing this type of pressure on teachers.

By rae

March 3, 2005 12:46 PM | Link to this

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Jennifer

March 3, 2005 01:32 PM | Link to this

To David, Derek, Cliff, and the rest…:

What they’re doing is neither wrong nor whining. It’s a work-to-contract strike. According to most teachers’ contracts, the specific hours during which they are mandated that they be at school & work are actually specifically listed in the contract, which includes a planning period. They cannot “force” a teacher to work beyond those hours, and so long as they are doing as much as they can during those times, I say go for it.

Sure, teachers have several weeks during the summer off, but many use that time for professional development classes, preparing for the upcoming school year, or working a summer job to pay their bills. As far as I’m concerned, if we don’t even have the decency to give teachers a cost-of-living raise, then we shouldn’t expect them to “volunteer” their free time to work, either by grading, lesson planning, or supervising activities.

By Derek

March 3, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this

Jennifer,

I wish someone would explain to me why teachers need a union contract? I have never worked under a union and in the nearly nine I have been out of college, I have never had an incident where I was run over by an employer. Because of all the regulations that burden government employers, teachers are in even a less likley position to fall victim to such a circumstances. Union members seem to always want to get away with as little as possible which is the situation you are describing.

You cite working summer jobs. That is an option if you do not have to work year around. It would be a different situation if teachers were working a second job routinely in addition to their teaching time as opposed to filling in the off MONTHS of a year. I work summers to make ends meet as well - it is called my job. As for spending time on professional development, the hours spent in a classroom for training (some of which is PAID) pales to the number of non-work hours that those in the private sector spend away from home due to travel when they are not being paid extra. The bottom line here is that teachers complain about being expected to do things that a majority of other positions held by college grad expects.

By LM

March 3, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this

Mr. Mozelle…I can see why you feel so bad about teachers…Either you can’t type, or you can’t spell the word WAY. I agree your teacher was probably overpaid. David and Derek…If teachers have it so great, why is it that you don’t teach school?

By Derek

March 3, 2005 02:01 PM | Link to this

Easy, LM. 1.) It is not an interest I have. 2.) I would not be an effective teacher below the college level. I might would be more suited to be a college professor where there is much less hand-holding needed as compared to younger children and teenagers. 3.) And this would prevent me from such a career if 1 or 2 were not an issue - I have no desire to work for the government, thus leaving only a few private schools as potential employers.

By Derek

March 3, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

Also, LM, that is a pretty weak retort to criticize spelling and grammar in a blog. I have been known to leave a word out here and there and have some unpolished grammar and spelling in such a forum as bother proofing a blog entry. This is not a term paper we are working on here. Also, it is fairly weak to insinuate that one’s view on a career are invalidated becasue we do not wish to work in that career. This is even more of a concern when you consider that my school taxes are at least 75% of my property tax bill and I do not have even have any kids! Also, when teachers continue to demand higher and higher pay and argue they are underpaid when they are already fairly compensated, I would have to pay for any of those raises so you can bet I have something to say about it, whether I want to be a teacher or not!

By Greg

March 3, 2005 02:14 PM | Link to this

My God. The comments of people like Cliff and Derek, who have convinced themseleves that they know exactly what a career in teaching entails, just make me want to throw up my hands in disgust. It is attitudes like this- that somehow teachers don’t live in “the REAL WORK WORLD,” and that an education degree is something that is just handed to you- that demonstrate the profound ignorance that those of us who spend our days and nights attempting to make a difference in the lives of children have to fight every day. Please, Derek and Cliff, do us all a favor- spend one day as a substitute in a in a school. One day only. I dare you. Make an attempt to actually discover the reality of public education in America. But no- you’ll just continue to spout off about “liberal nutcases” and keep your ear glued to Rush Limbaugh. Smug and blissful in your ignorance. “Phenomenal retirement plan?” Give me a break…

By DS

March 3, 2005 02:21 PM | Link to this

Big Talk Derk. I double dog dare ya to try teaching for a month before you put down folks for something you don’t understand. I teach 8th grade AND college undergrad classes. Yes, we get paid pretty well for down here in bubbaville, but that’s just comparatively speaking. They keep piling more and more beaurocratic duties on us and it is becoming increasingly harder and harder to do what we were born to do: teach. At any rate, comments like that are just one more reason that teachers have a hard time. I do dare any of the naysayers to try a team of 130 6th or 8th graders for a month or so. Who knows, they may eat you alive, or you may find that you like it!

By DS

March 3, 2005 02:23 PM | Link to this

Oh, no, Derek and Cliff are neocons? Nevermind. Ignorance is its own reward.

By Lyle

March 3, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this

To all who are complaining about teachers having easy jobs & plenty of time off: All of your posts are between 10:30 and 2:00. This is usually a time frame set aside for work-related activities at most companies, not blog-posting. Sounds like your job is not too tough and/or you have all the time off that you need. Don’t act like teaching is such an easy job compared to your’s. They certainly work hard for the little money they do get. Do you?

By Howell

March 3, 2005 02:29 PM | Link to this

To all who are complaining about teachers having easy jobs & plenty of time off: All of your posts are between 10:30 and 2:00. This is usually a time frame set aside for work-related activities at most companies, not blog-posting. Sounds like your job is not too tough and/or you have all the time off that you need. Don’t act like teaching is such an easy job compared to your’s. They certainly work hard for the little money they do get. Do you?

By Derek

March 3, 2005 02:37 PM | Link to this

Thanks, DS. I take that as a compliment. Yet another thing wrong with our government schools - way too many liberals influencing the children of this country.

For the record, I never said dealing with that many kids would be easy. I am simply saying that teachers do not have a bad deal when you consider benefits, compensation, and time off.

I also recognize that the ability of teachers to teach is impeded by all the extras heaped on them. However, the source of much of those extra requirements is because of government policies. And since, DS, you have apparently identified yourself as a liberal, I suspect that you love government and the variety of PC and liberals positions that result in a lot of this overhead, I don’t think you have a lot of room to complain.

As for switching positions, I would love to try that someday if that were feasible. I like kids, but I know right now I would not want to deal with 30 of them at a time. Beyond that, I don’t think I would have any problem picking up the information needed to do the job. However, unless you have a technical background, I suspect you are not going to be able to pick up on my responsibilities in a week. This is not a slam on your abilities but rather on the deficiency of technical training. And this goes directly to my supply and demand argument. All teachers by definition have completed a high school education so they have the essential knowledge needed to teach the material (I know you learn it more in-depth in college…I am just simplifying the point.) However, only a small subset of people have the skills necessary to do a technical, legal, financial, etc. career in many cases. Lower supply coupled with high demand equals higher pay.

By Derek

March 3, 2005 02:43 PM | Link to this

Greg, the “real world” comments are made because we so often hear teachers complain about things that routine in the private sector world. What conclusion are we supposed to reach?

As for the retirement plan, in the district of several friends, my understanding was 70% of base bay after 30 years. Even my friends admit that they get a great retirement plan. Maybe this is different from district to district so I could be wrong on this point.

By Cliff Mozelle

March 3, 2005 02:47 PM | Link to this

Hey Derek. Easy boy. No need to capitulate here. Dealing with a defiant socialist can be counterproductive. Chin up brother. Make money. Put your kids in private school. You don’t want some of these knuckleheads getting into your childs’ minds.

By Derek

March 3, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this

Hey Lyle…why don’t we check with those teachers in April on relative toughness at about 3A when I have been working since 9ish the previous morning and I have probably at least more hours to go before the special project is complete? Course I would likely have not worked between 5:30 and 10ish, but that was so I could go and attend my night MBA class. Let me know what they tell you when you wake a teacher up at 3A cause they are definitely working at that hour!

By Emily

March 3, 2005 02:56 PM | Link to this

I am so disgusted. These gentlemenn are unbelievable. Yes, teachers are paid a semi-reasonable amount. But I would NEVER work for two years without a raise PERIOD. Most people wouldn’t. It has nothing to do with teachers net pay and everything to do with being unappreciated as a worker.

Also, the hours teachers work are not comiserate with office staff. Sorry, but it is not even close. I work 6:45-4:30 or 5 everyday. I also call parents most evenings around 6, and I grade for at least an hour a night. The only way I get a night to myself is if I put off work until the next day-which causes a delay.

Teachers, when they get frustrated, joke about getting a REAL job. I second the idea of others trying to substitute teach, especially in a poverty-stricken inner-city school like mine. Come on…Just to prove you can.

By Derek

March 3, 2005 02:57 PM | Link to this

Cliff,

Definitely not knuckling, but unlike liberals, I want to be sure I am fair and accurate with the figures supporting my positions. Drives me nuts when liberals define their positions and then make the statistics support that position.

By David

March 3, 2005 03:01 PM | Link to this

LM - you, as well as some others do not COMPREHEND what I am saying. I will not teach because it will not support my standard of living. That is why I did not pursue a degree in education. Nobody is saying it is an easy job. What I am saying is that it IS your chosen profession and if you don’t think you are paid what you deserve - GET OUT if you have the guts. Why not start your own private school? Who is stopping you? Again - If you don’t like the type of work you do then leave! No one is making you be a teacher. If you are quailified for a job that compensates you more - then go. I can blog because I am neither paid by the hour, nor am I on salary. I am paid based on what I produce for my employer. I also believe that there are no place for unions in this country anymore. Ever wonder why more and more US jobs are moving overseas?? I’ll see if you can figure that out - and, no it is not because of Bush. I love my daughters teacher and the school she attends, but if teachers were paid based on the quality of their work, I’m afraid many (not all) teachers would earn less - not more. Lora Billinger makes my point perfectly (though not intentionally) by complaining about the lack of results already occuring. If we paid teachers $50,000 more per year, would the illiteracy rate drop? No. The why would we give a blanket raise to a group of workers who are already not getting the job done (relative to other countries)? DO YOUR JOB OR GET OUT.

By DS

March 3, 2005 03:04 PM | Link to this

Actually I’m a Christian Conservative, I’m just not a Moron. Anyone who doesn’t swallow everything the neocons shove down your throat is labeled a liberal. That’s a cheap shot and not very intelligent. Let’s move on.

By David

March 3, 2005 03:13 PM | Link to this

Also… If Judith Bodenhauser (teacher in the article) worked for me, I would truely enjoy bringing here into my office. I would do her (as well as myself) the faver of telling her that her services were no longer needed. And effective immediately ‘you’re terminated’. I would truely be helping her. Maybe she would finally get the push she needed to go out and persue her life’s dream. And… maybe she’s not worth a crap, and would not be able to find a job that pays her over minimum wage. Don’t you just love hypotheticals ?? :-)

By LM

March 3, 2005 03:23 PM | Link to this

Well, that’s just lovely Derek…You can’t even spell your retort towards you misspelling!…and David, don’t type when you’re mad. Apparently you can’t see straight enough to spell either. As for blog etiquette, I am sure there is none…but, then again, PROPERLY EDUCATED people know how to write…ALL THE TIME. Also, it takes a bit more than a H.S education to teach well….We have to be trained to communicate with people as narrow minded as you!

By David

March 3, 2005 03:31 PM | Link to this

LM - LOL. I’m not mad - I’m laughing :-). What does training have to do with job performance? You addressed none of my points, then called me narrow minded? Which point do you disagree with? If you were paying someone to perform a task - like cleaning your house. you agreed on a price. Later, the job is not being done - would you still pay them? Your not too bright if you do. I thought teachers are paid to educate our kids - not watch the clock. If they can’t do the task - they should not be doing the job. Are the tax payers going to pay less now because their kids are not being proberly educated? I’m still amused :-)

By David

March 3, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this

properly

By Cliff Mozelle

March 3, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this

OK LM - Guess what. Education isn’t always the answer. You were probably on the 10 year plan and living with mommy and daddy while people like me and the others who pay a sh*tload in taxes carried the weight of the world for you. Critiquing spelling makes you how much money a year? Fretting little piddly things. Get a life, make money, pay taxes, and have something good to say sometime.

By David

March 3, 2005 03:44 PM | Link to this

I really should not have cheated on all those spelling tests!! I really regret it now days! Thank God for spell check :D

By Derek

March 3, 2005 03:48 PM | Link to this

LM, you are so far off base it is not even funny. I am not really concerned if I have a misspelling or two on a blog. If that is the best argument you can come up with then I just smile. I have been complimented on numerous occasions for my writing by various people so I do not need validation based on a blog post. Enough about credentials - I am not questioning yours, you can just trust me when I tell you that there is no deficiencies in my education. As for narrow-mindedness, call it that if you wish. Based on the facts and information I have, I have taken a position. That position does not agree with yours so I must be narrowminded. Must be great to be in your classroom when it comes to the vaunted question of whether the teacher invites criticism of his or her ideas.

By Derek

March 3, 2005 03:54 PM | Link to this

One more thing, LM. I have a friend who teaches AP History in high school. I do not know what subject you teach, but if it is history, I can assure you that he could easily outdo your knowledge in that subject. He cannot spell cat if you spotted him the c and the t to save his life. But he DOES know his stuff and to say he is uneducated based on a lack of a knack for spelling would be silly.

By Youliah

March 3, 2005 03:59 PM | Link to this

Where California goes, the nation follows so have your parent-teacher conference now, while you still can.

A. Senior teachers make $60K with two months off in the summer and 4+ weeks during the rest of the year. They work 50+ hours per week. They have job security.

B. I make $60K with one week off all year. I work 50+ hours per week. I have no job security.

For an A+ this year, pick the better option.

By LM

March 3, 2005 04:02 PM | Link to this

Hey Guys…you really are fools.Just because I don’t agree with you must make me some educator!!I’m not retorting your points because you are too ignorant about what it means to be responsible for other human being’s cognitive skills to even start a discussion. As for your whining about what how hard you have to work, late into the evening, with no break in sight….well, you must not be very good at what you do to be that inefficient at it. My guess is you need to stop blogging and get back to work!

By Derek

March 3, 2005 04:06 PM | Link to this

LM, why don’t you stop the name-calling? I did not do so (ok..you might consider inferring you to be a liberal was name-calling). I just made the assumption that you were a teacher. Ok…so you’re not. I still contend that you are the pot calling the kettle black. “They don’t agree with me, so I will call them names.” Who is making it hard to have a debate/discussion here?

By Liah

March 3, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this

Chill out, boys

By DS

March 3, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this

Speaking of name calling, one of the neocons here began listing all of the things that I supposedly “believed” because I must be a “liberal” because I dared to disagree with his twisted logic. He didn’t even know that I was a conservative as well, but the rabid limbaugh/hannity suckup neocons are so fast to jump to conclusions and call names that they give a horrible name to the cause of conservatism. At any rate, it’s scary how many guys have time to sit around all day bashing teachers. They must have had to sit in the corner in 4th grade. Poor junior. Now let’s raise the level of conversation here….although I have to admit, it is fun! I don’t just have hundreds of “friends” who are teachers, I freakin’ AM a teacher of 25 years who knows what I’m talking about. Let’s all read Luke 6 and get along.

By David

March 3, 2005 04:25 PM | Link to this

LM - “Also, it takes a bit more than a H.S education to teach well….We have to be trained to communicate with people as narrow minded as you!”

1) The “WE” in that sentance says that your an educator. That is probably why he assumed you were.

2) you should not type when you’re mad.

3)Too Igonrant about responsiability for cognative development? Your assumption is incorrect. I have a daughter in public school now - and I am very involved and aware.

4) Very stupid point on working late!! Are the teachers that can’t do their jobs in the alotted workday also inefficient???? I guess you just made my point once more (you are getting very good at it)!!

5) Lastly, you called me narrow minded yet you still have not addressed on which points you were referring to or what you disagree with? I am beginning to doubt your advanced training !

Cheers :-)

By liah

March 3, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this

Like I said before, chill out, boys!…or do I need to call your mothers?

By Kittycat

March 3, 2005 04:45 PM | Link to this

Well…I find this whole thread very eyeopening. It is the narrowminded people who are so busy shooting holes in all other plausible arguments who exhibit the true waste of even a stellar education. Just goes to show ya…having an education from a 5 star university does one little to no good what so ever when it comes to intelligent conversation.

By Sarah

March 3, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this

Several posts have made reference to the fact that teachers only work 10 months. Please bear in mind that they are only paid for the 10 months that they work. Some choose to spread their 10 month salary over a 12 month period; many others work other jobs in the summer, not as a perk, but in order to pay the bills. I’m the wife of a 23 year veteran teacher, who started teaching with a masters degree in field, not in education. Had he begun his career years ago in the private sector he’d be making $20-$40M per year more than he earns today. But teaching is a calling, not a job. He’ll tell you he would have missed untold satisfaction in a different career.

By Patti

March 3, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this

This is your Get Schooled blogmistress chiming in. I’m not trying to suppress the debate, but please don’t use any profanity on this blog - not even if you substitute a letter with an asterisk. I want everyone, including kids, to feel welcome here.

Thank you!

Patti

By David

March 3, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this

Chill out?? c’mon this fun. :-D
Many people do not understand that to earn a salary means that someone is paying to do a job. If the employee (yes - that is a teacher) is not going to do what the job entails, why would I want to pay them? Does LM view the salary that teachers get as some kind of welfare? What ever happened to taking pride in a job well done? and being appreciative for the income, security, and benefits that are available. Is this not the best country in the world ?? !! God bless the free market !!

By David

March 3, 2005 05:03 PM | Link to this

By the way… I love your point Sarah. Teaching is a calling in my humble oppinion. I feel that most of my daughters teachers have felt that way also. My hat is off to your husband and all the other educators that have the same feeling of purpose.

By PH

March 4, 2005 09:23 AM | Link to this

Day care in the small town where I live is $90/week for 1 child. Parents are also asked to supply diapers and food. I have 25 students in my classroom. At the average day care rate I would make $2,250/ week. I have a Specialist Degree in Education and I am certified to teach all subjects. I barely bring home that amount each month. I am required to teach not just babysit. Teachers are way underpaid. We are also “asked” to do extra activites afterschool and on weekends with no extra compensation. It is more than a matter of money it is a matter of respect.

By RD

March 4, 2005 09:38 AM | Link to this

Teachers teach and go way beyond their job descriptions in order to help children learn and some students still do not pass standardized test. Just because teachers “do their jobs” doesn’t mean all students learn.

By David

March 4, 2005 09:51 AM | Link to this

I understand what you are saying. You may be underpaid in your oppinion. Especally if you are a very good teacher. My problem is not with teachers saying they will not do the extra activities - it’s with teachers not performing the basics - such as homework or returning calls (such as the teacher in the article). Another way to determine what ‘fair market price’ for your skills are is to demand a pay raise or you will quit. If they tell you to take a hike, and can have you replaced at the same rate or less (in a short period of time and at a minimum cost) - then chances are, you are paid fairly. If employers are having no problems hiring other employees to work at the same rate, then there is no reason to raise pay. But - the employer must have the ability to fire if the employee is not doing their job.

By Dana

March 4, 2005 09:55 AM | Link to this

If you will note…most of the negative comments are from males….I am “shocked”, since there are so many less male teachers than females. Although, you know how some males are—aren’t they experts at everything…even if they are totally uneducated about the subject. Could it be that they have such a sour attitude because they never had a teacher that actually succeeded in broadening their narrow, little minds? I mean…I am not commenting on their “real jobs,” because I am educated enough to know that I am not an expert at their jobs, since I have never attempted to do it, much less been to college for it, and continue to be educated on an on-going basis to keep up to date on the latest skills to enhance the job performance.

By David

March 4, 2005 10:03 AM | Link to this

Dana - This is the 2nd time that I have been called narrow minded on this blog. Could you please elaborate on which of my points that you disagree. I’m not sure I follow your point.

By PH

March 4, 2005 10:12 AM | Link to this

Teachers are in NO position to demand anything. We have no Union. People who do not work in Education really have no idea what it is like. Teachers spend a great deal of their time doing what they are told and being blamed for everything. We put up with all the unpleasantness because we love chilren and want to make a difference.

By Derek

March 4, 2005 10:22 AM | Link to this

Thank you, Dana for that sexist retort. Go ahead folks…call us narrowminded because we do not dare go along with the PC line that teachers are underpaid. Being called narrowminded does not bother me when I have used to logic and facts and other intangibles to consider the issue and reached an opinion. Not saying my mind cannot be changed, but calling me names and taking a sexist standpoint is not going to do it. As for being sour over not having great teachers that would not be true in my case. Becasue I took a lot of advanced courses in high school, I was very fortunate to get a higher proportion of the best teachers in my school. In several subjects they made my transition to a academically-challenging university that much simpler. I still to this day draw from some of the material I was taught by these teachers in high school. That does not mean that I favor paying them more than a fair wage. Now, for their sakes, I do wish there were a merit based pay system for teachers so that, like in most other professions, the best teachers would earn a premium. However, every time a merit-based system is proposed, teachers unions and a large contingent of the profession strongly oppose that. My friend that I spoke of would strongly benefit from such a system while the teachers that let students skate through their class without learning anything would not be on the opposite end. What about that, teachers? How about merit pay? That way, those teachers who do overachieve (and no…like any profession, that is NOT all of them) benefit? If not, give us a reason why merit-based compensation would not be appropriate. Here is your chance to expand our “narrow male minds.”

By David

March 4, 2005 10:38 AM | Link to this

Again.. I am not doubting that. But if the work is that unpleasant, why not move to the private sector? Find something that you truely love and enjoy. If you stay because of your desire to help children, then I salute you and admire your decision.

Unions are a waste and a drag on the economy. Employers should be able to hire and fire as the please. If they are not pleased with the employees performance - they should be able to fire. Pay rates are generally determined by fair market price - not Union threats & negotiations. US companies are having a very difficult time competing with other countries because of the cost of doing business here

By Cliff Mozelle

March 4, 2005 10:43 AM | Link to this

The teacher in Berkeley that wouldn’t call parents back because she didn’t get a pay raise should be fired. Plain and simple. Who does she think she works for? That’s the problem with people who feel they have a guaranteed job. They think they’re owed something. She obviously has never been in the real world where she could go to work one day and find out the office is closing next week and she’ll be out of a job. The parents of these children who deserve the phone call from the teacher could very well be the ones who got laid off and have rebounded and found other work to sustain their career and family. A whole different way of life than the teacher. And what has this teacher bent out of shape? She got dissed. Didn’t get her extra $90 a month. Every profession has it’s issues but the private sector deals with theirs. Deal with yours. Fire her. Next.

By David

March 4, 2005 10:46 AM | Link to this

I agree with your points Derek. Well said. If parents had the freedom to choose their child’s school, it would be a different ballgame. The good schools would flourish and the poor schools would go out of busisness (hypothetically). This would also allow the better teachers to earm more - and the lower performing teachers would loose job security - and possibly their job. The teachers union is very against that!! It strives for mediocrity.

By David

March 4, 2005 10:52 AM | Link to this

and… beautifully said Cliff :-)

By PH

March 4, 2005 11:02 AM | Link to this

How are you going to determine if a teacher does their job? What are you going to base Merit Pay on? Test scores? Some teachers are teaching double digit division while others in the same grade are trying to teach their students to subtract 8-7. All are working equally hard. Which class do you think will be able make the highest scores on a standardized test? Does that mean one teacher didn’t do his/her job? NO! All students are different and learn at different rates. Teachers who work in Public Education try to teach every person that comes into their classroom. In the private sector what happens when you have an employee that doesn’t complete tasks on time, misses too many days, doesn’t get along with others, hits or uses profanity against coworkers or bosses? In Education we still try to teach them. They can’t be “fired”. How can an Educator be judged based on how a student performs? We can only do our best. We have no real control over the actions of students or their parents. You can’t make someone learn.

By Derek

March 4, 2005 11:06 AM | Link to this

Hey PH…I spend a great deal of time doing what I am told by my manager and company policies. Know what I can do if I do not like it? Change jobs. I asked yesterday and did not see an answer as to why teachers need a union??? As far as I can tell, unless you are in a industry where workers are really taken advantage of (definitely not education it seems) then unions only serve to overinflate pay at the expense of customers/shareholders/taxpayers or to allow employees to get away with as little as possible. PH, teachers in government education, work for the government so naturally going to be less flexibility in your positions. That is the nature of government bureacracy whether it be the IRS or the the local school.

By PLD

March 4, 2005 11:24 AM | Link to this

I am a teacher, and am writing this on my lunch break (for those who might want to criticize me for blogging during work hours). We don’t change jobs because we like what we do. We just want to be paid fairly for what we do and the hours we put in to our job. I have no problem with pay based on merit, so long as you have fair measures to determine who is doing their job correctly.

By Derek

March 4, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this

PH, you asked if had an employee who behaved like that then what would we do? Fire them. I would hope that if the school system had an employee like that they would fire them as well. I think you were implying that some students behave like that. The proper comparison would be a customer and generally, if a customer hit one of our employees, they would not be a customer much longer. I acknowledge that the PC position that every student deserves an education hampers you here and that that is not something you can control. (As an aside, I firmly believe that getting an education is a privilege and if a student behaves like this, they forfeit this privilege and should be expelled. Unfortunately, government policy and court rulings prevent this.)

However, any career has some kind of measurable. I realize that teachers teaching different subjects and students on different levels will have different learning and success rates. I recognize that every student is not going to succeed or even try despite the effort of the teacher. That is why you have to normalize whatever these measureables are look at averages. Perhaps you establish some type of baseline measurable for each course that is set to a normalized scale or that you look at average performance on testing versus other similar classes. For example, when a friend’s class standardized exam scores came back, students from his classes, on average, outperformed students from other classes. That tells me that he is doing something right. Maybe that is not the only measurable but it is a component composite scoring system. I get measured on a weighted average based on several objectives so why can teachers not be the same? What these measurable should be, I do not know. I am not in the education profession but those people in the profession should be able to establish some type of system to control the variation in student achievement and reward those teachers who succeed. I suspect that in a school, most people know who the successful teachers and that a lot of those teachers would be completely in favor of a merit-based system. I suspect it is safe to assume that a lot of those opposing such a system have little to gain or possibly something to lose under merit-based pay. As they say, “follow the money.”

By PH

March 4, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this

You guys are missing the point. No one is complaining about their government job. (Teachers in Private Schools are paid far less.) We are only asking to be compensated for what we do. All teachers want to improve things not only for themselves but for their students. It is really impossible for you to understand and comment on things you have no idea about.

By Derek

March 4, 2005 11:29 AM | Link to this

At last, a voice of reason from a teacher! Thanks, PLD.

By DA

March 4, 2005 11:30 AM | Link to this

I’m a teacher, and I get paid a little less than I would like, but I’m not complaining. And there is no union where I work because I work in a private school. However, I feel sorry for MOST public school teachers. The conditions are so that you are beaten down and actually encouraged to do a bad job! Clint, David, and many others who think teachers have it made, my suggestion is for you to go to and teach for 5 years in any public school. What are you waiting for?

By Derek

March 4, 2005 11:35 AM | Link to this

Sorry, PH, but as long as our tax dollars are being called on to pay for it, we can comment on it. If you were not pulling money from my pocket for the never satiated compensation desires of teachers, I would not be nearly as vocal. As a homeowner with no children, I carry a disproportinately large portion of teachers’ salaries than people who have kids who do not own property.

You said that teachers only want to improve things for themselves and their students. How does you getting a pay raise equate to improving things for your students?

By Aron

March 4, 2005 11:39 AM | Link to this

Can someone find me that school where I get all that time off? I did have Christmas and a week in the spring, but I had three days off between the end of school and the first teacher day in August. (My husband, in the “real world” has been in his company 12 years, he gets 5 weeks vacation.) In my state, and many others, teachers are required to take classes, so to seminars, attend conferences, and so on in order to be recertified. This process is repeated in four or five year cycles, regardless if I have my BA, MS, PhD, whatever. It isn’t so much about money. I’ve been teaching for 15 years. I knew going in that the pay was lousy, compared with my other options. I even left for a few years to get a “real job”, but this is what I am supposed to do so here I am. What bothers me about my job is the attitude I get from the rest of the world. Folks like you who think nothing of blaming me when your child doesn’t do a bit of homework, writes notes to her friends all through class (Sorry, I can’t magically tell what all 35 of them are writing when I give lecture notes), refuses extra help, and bombs a test. Folks who send me 10th graders who went to bed at 2 AM, drinking cola for breakfast, wearing clothes that belong on a streetcorner who can’t understand why I want them to take time out of their day to talk about their child’s lack of progress. I work 6 AM to 10 PM five to six days a week most every week of the year. Besides the mounds and mounds of office-type paperwork I do, I spend that time examining your child’s essays, searching out new and interesting ways to get the material across, reading books, articles and other materials, trying to reach the unreachables. I’m not inefficient, I’m dedicated. Teaching isn’t like engineering or computers. You have to approach each child differently every day to do it right. I have to reach 145 students a day, or I feel like I should have done more. I chose to do it. I don’t mind. I live for the good days when someone has a lightbulb go on somewhere in my room. It does hurt when you look down your nose at me and say “you are a teacher because that’s all you can do”. Not true … I took a massive pay cut to do this. When you call me at home to tell me what a lousy person I am because I won’t let your baby doll (age 16) turn in an essay six days late, because he didn’t feel like writing one. When you say I’m not worth the pittance you pay me, just because your taxes are high. My guess is, one of the big reasons you live where you do is because the schools are good. Your taxes likely reflect your choices, whether or not you have children, resale is what drives real estate investment. Yes, I chose to be a teacher. You all go about your business feeling righteous in your opinions. I have to get back to my class. My 18 minute lunch is over.

By PW

March 4, 2005 11:41 AM | Link to this

Has anyone ever realized that teachers are on a 10 month contract? That is why salaries are so low…they are only paid for 10 months of work, it just so happens that the contract is stretched out over 12 monthly pay periods. So yea we do have 2 months off in the summer….UNPAYED

By PW

March 4, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this

Has anyone ever realized that teachers are on a 10 month contract? That is why salaries are so low…they are only paid for 10 months of work, it just so happens that the contract is stretched out over 12 monthly pay periods. So yea we do have 2 months off in the summer….Unpaid

By Derek

March 4, 2005 11:42 AM | Link to this

As I said yesterday, DA, I have no interest in being a teacher. Just nothing something that appeals to be, not because of the conditions, but because of my interests. Just as some people do not want to be an engineer or lawyer, I do not want to be a teacher. I think you hit on a great point, though. The conditions are bad in goverment schools. Why is that? BECAUSE OF GOVERNMENT!! This what happens when we let government run amuck in educating kids. This is obvioulsy no the teachers’ faults of course.

By hildymac

March 4, 2005 11:55 AM | Link to this

As a teacher (and yes, it’s my planning period so that’s why I’m on here), I find what the teachers in CA are doing to be absurd and amazingly selfish. They’re not calling attention to their “cause,” they’re making themselves look like morons by not doing what is required of them. Guess what - doing things outside of your school day for the students is part of your job, and you know this getting into your profession. If it pains you so much to call parents outside of the day, call them during planning. Ditto with grading papers, or assigning homework. Not doing so is lazy, and in any other job you’d get canned, no questions asked. While it’s unfortunate they didn’t get their 2% raises (because I don’t know what I’d do if I didn’t get that extra $25 a month), acting like this isn’t going to get them any more. Teachers are paid extremely well for the 10 months of the year we work and all the vacation we get during tha time. I don’t complain. Yes, we’re deserving of the time off since the kids can tend to drain you, but other professions are deserving of more time off than they get. We shouldn’t expect to get a cookie because we’re doing what we’re asked to do and what we are SUPPOSED to be doing. The teachers who whine about how little we get paid and how hard the job is need to find a different job. You knew this going in to the profession - suck it up and deal.

By Derek

March 4, 2005 11:58 AM | Link to this

Hey PW:

Know why those two months in the summer are unpaid? Because you are not working for those two months!! Imagine that…only being paid for the work that you do. Are you suggesting that you should receive 12 months pay for 10 months work? Wow…how long can a company stay in business doing that? Wait…its government we are talking about…they will just raise our taxes!

By Derek

March 4, 2005 12:03 PM | Link to this

Another teacher with a voice of reason. hildymac, I suspect that, if I had kids, you are the kind of teacher I would want teaching them.

By David

March 4, 2005 12:09 PM | Link to this

DA - I would not want to be a teacher - it does not pay enough. I said as much yesterday. I never said teachers have it made. I just don’t understand why the teachers in that article believe thay should continue to get paid for poor performance. The point I have also made is that if you do not like what you do - then change and do something that you love - you only live once!! Lastly, and again - just because your job is demanding, that does not entitle you to more money. Heck - garbage collectors would all be millionaires. If you think you are worth more - than demand more or change jobs.

By Cliff Mozelle

March 4, 2005 12:11 PM | Link to this

Wow - hildymac. A capitalist in a socialist environment. How do you do it? You go.

By hildymac

March 4, 2005 12:11 PM | Link to this

Much obliged. I’m a paradox, really - I’m a conservative in an amazingly liberal profession. Nothing like telling the students it’s ok to get a free pass by not doing your work via demanding extra pay because you refuse to follow your job description. I’m sure that these are the same teachers who complain about the kids who don’t know why they have to turn in assignments on time, or who pass the buck (as they often do in my school which is an alternative one) to the administrators and teachers when they get in trouble or earn failing grades. It annoys me when I hear them say “My teacher failed me…” or “I administrator failed me…” NO - you did that to yourself. When we stop holding the kids’ hands and make them take responsibility for their own actions, THEN we’ll see improvement. But, as teachers, we lead by example… so can we really blame the kids when they whine? I can since I’m force my kids to be responsible for everything that’s their responsibility as students, but I also blame other teachers and parents… you know, the kind who believes that purple ink makes that F better.

By hildymac

March 4, 2005 12:28 PM | Link to this

I do it through tuning out stupidity. You’d be amazed at how often I have to flip that “Moron Switch” I have in my head to the ignore position. I do it because I want to help the kids do well - I have been in situtations before where I’ve helped a kid raise a grade 30 points in less than a semester, and doing that gives me motivation and a belief that students are really worth more than their parents and teachers assume they are. Unfortunately, a lot of the kids I get are so far gone that no amount of power teaching can get them back on track, and yes, I do thank apathetic teachers for that. I’m scared because this is only my second year of teaching… God help me if I turn into one of those “everyone needs a hug to fix their problems” type, or I’m up a creek w/o a paddle. Or else I might just have to move on up to the university level. BTW, thanks for the compliments, guys.

By PH

March 4, 2005 12:39 PM | Link to this

Thanks Aron!

By Amanda

March 4, 2005 01:00 PM | Link to this

Okay, so I somewhat agree with Hildymac that working outside of the normal school day is part of the job and we know that getting in (by the way, it’s my lunch period so don’t think I’m being a slack teacher). Also, I work for a school system that pays extremely well, so I won’t complain about my salary, either. However, the underlying problem, for me, isn’t about the pay. It’s about the lack of respect that we get from those of you in the “private sector” who seem to think that you work so much harder than we do! Honestly, how many of you in the private sector try to explain your job—what you know how to do well—to 150 other people every day who probably don’t even what to hear about it? Really, the challenge of teaching (which is why I love it) is not merely knowing how to do something (content knowledge, etc) but knowing how to get someone else to be able to do that too!! Trust me, it would be much easier to DO a project MYSELF (no matter how much overtime I had to work) than try to get A CHILD to do the same project half as well as I would.
How many doctors or lawyers do you know who have to meet with 30 patients at a time and try to meet all of their needs and answer all of their questions—in 50 minutes or less? How many of you try to make a “presentation” or work on a “project” while also trying to keep someone awake, someone else in his seat, someone else from using a cell phone, or someone else from talking while you are talking? Our job is like no other because OUR WORK—the planning, the grading, the copying, the lessons—must be done OUTSIDE of the normal day so that we can work for the KIDS during the day. Most of you who work in the private sector have 8—10 hours a day to do YOUR work. I have one (during my regular contract hours) and the rest of my day is devoted to making the “presentation” to the kids. And, it’s not just one presentation. It’s not just one special project. It’s not just one late night. It’s a new presentation every day. It’s a new “sales pitch” every day. And if a teacher has more than one class (currently, I teach 9th and 10th grade), she has to make multiple presentations and multiple “sales pitches” each day. We gear up for a major project EACH day—and most of us present that project FIVE times a day!
How many of you only have six minutes to go to the bathroom (while also sharing a single bathroom with ten other people on your hallway)? How many of you only have 23 minutes to eat lunch—and you are not (under any circumstances) to leave work to do so? Yeah, they seem like little things to complain about, but they begin to wear us down after a while. I whole-heartedly agree that there are teachers in our profession who do NOT do their jobs. There are teachers who spend their entire summer on a couch. There are teachers who leave at 3pm every day. I agree that those teachers should be FIRED!!!!! But, the rest of us—who do our jobs—are sick of hearing about how we get the summers off (by the way, this summer, I will have about two weeks to myself when I am not working with the cheerleading squad at school, grading standardized tests for my district, and attending staff development courses). You get to go to the bathroom whenever you want to! You don’t have 30 teenagers surrounding you constantly (most parents can’t even deal with one or two!). You don’t have to cram your lunch down in 23 minutes. And when you want something to get done, YOU get to do it! You don’t have to try to get thirty ADOLESCENTS to do it—and do it well enough for you not to “Leave” them “Behind”.

By RD

March 4, 2005 01:05 PM | Link to this

Way to go Amanda!

By hildymac

March 4, 2005 01:14 PM | Link to this

I do agree with Amanda there… dealing with 30 high schoolers is a pain (but try dealing with 10 suspended middle school kids who all have BD and hormones at once - THAT’s a pain) and the time constraints suck royally. It has the ability to wear you down when you only have so much time to do what you want to do, and teacher workdays never give you enough time in the classroom… they’re all about staff development (half of which is a pain and a waste of time). There is a lot of outside work involved, and it is tough - studies have shown that teachers can work up to 60 hrs a week. But we’re salaried. Salaried people don’t get paid OT, private or public sector, sooo… we made the bed that we lie in. It can be fluffy, or it can screw your back up. It’s all a matter of coping with what we do, dealing with having a 6 minute time to go potty, and planning when to plan. If done really really well, you can shorten the amount of time you have to work in a week. I tend to be one of those leave at 3 people (I don’t have the normal constraints as a regular classroom teacher because of where I work - I wish to GOD that I did), but I was when I was teaching teaching too… I just had really good time management. But yeah, I had to plan at home and it was a pain in the butt, but I did it - and I enjoyed it because it helped the kids learn something.

By DS

March 4, 2005 01:17 PM | Link to this

Amanda said it very well. Again, guys/opinionated neocons: I double dog dare ya to try teaching. Not everyone can do this, that’s why so many drop out after a year. It takes miraculous people to be able to juggle all that and pull it off successfully. Again, I dare ya to try before you bash.

By hildymac

March 4, 2005 01:26 PM | Link to this

They’re NOT bashing you! They agree that not everyone can teach - they even said that’s why they DON’T do it. They’re simply asking why are the teachers in CA complaining about doing stuff that is required of their profession? Granted, yes I might agree with them, but I’m a teacher as well, and in my opinion even despite the work that we do we still have it pretty chushy. Wow. Summer staff development once every 4-5 years. gasp Let me give you a hug. Spread it out over the school years, or do it on-line as I did during the SCHOOL DAY. SD is required to keep us on the up and up, and again is something you knew about when you got into this profession. Will you guys stop picking on these gentlemen? They have valid points. They’re not saying our job isn’t hard, they’re not saying we aren’t vital members of the community - they’re saying WE GET PAID WELL. Think about it. $35,000 for 9-10 months worth of work is dang good. A lot of people don’t get paid nearly that for 12. Complaining about how little we get paid is selfish… again, isn’t that a trait that we don’t want our students to show?

By David

March 4, 2005 01:27 PM | Link to this

Amanda - speaking for myself - I am very thankful and appreciative of the feedback, and a job well done by my daughter’s teachers (public school). I also respect the job you do - thank God for people like yourself and others who seem to feel that it is a ‘calling’ of sorts. Where I run into issues are some of the teachers exampled in the article above - who are not doing their job (that would be the same of any profession). Also, the pay issue is difficult. There is good and bad with every job, and I know very few people who feel that they are overpaid. But some of the comments that people have posted on this thread show a complete ignorance of economic basics as well as any business knowlege. They may be able to teach history, or literature but know nothing of profitability, supply & demand. Many of the points that have been made here have been greeted with name calling. But yet none of these name callers will address any of these points.

By David

March 4, 2005 01:31 PM | Link to this

DS - that is not the point. I double dog dare you to try my job. $1000 says you would last 3 months. No one is saying teaching is easy….. Or for everyone. I would not want to do it.

By Derek

March 4, 2005 01:37 PM | Link to this

GO HILDY!!!!

By Amanda

March 4, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

I really do hope, Hildy, that you keep the same optimistic attitude. You really remind me of myself when I first began. You have the optimism of someone who has only been at this for a couple of years! I also hope you realize how rare it is to be able to do your staff development during the school day and to be able to feel like you did a good job and leave right at 3pm.

By Derek

March 4, 2005 01:47 PM | Link to this

DS, let’s put it this way. First, I know I would not be a great teacher. While as an engineer, I probably know more actual math than 75% of the math teachers in your average high school, I do not have the ability to teach well nor do I have the temperament. But’s let switch anyway. While I might not be a great teacher, I am fairly certain that I would be a much better teacher than you would be an engineer (again barring any undiclosed science of technical background). After I would probably be frazzled (though I would not try to be their friend and they would probably not like me much, I would hope that would do better of keeping them in line…not saying that that is an ideal approach, but that is just one aspect of why I might not be a superior teacher) and ready to get back to my job, at least the kids would have learned something that week (well..I would hope…another of my teaching deficiencies is that I would probably open a firehose of information on them of which they would be lucky to pick up on a lot of because I would not have the ability to help them learn it…see above) and at the very least they would have gotten some homework assigned. However, I am betting, that I would return to my office to find you staring at the software tools, vast quantities of data and reports, requests for input on various engineering systems or projects, and everything else we see in my career with complete and utter bewilderment. That is not to imply you are not educated or knowledgable (I am not going to name-call as you like to do…as if neo-con is an insult! :) ) but that you probably lack the crucial and specific education training that I have. While a lot of my work could be picked up on the job (we have some folks without technical degrees working very successfully here) after a week’s switch, I would not be as far behind as you would be.

By DS

March 4, 2005 01:57 PM | Link to this

Nah, I wouldn’t be a good engineer, although I do have a science background and teach several undergrad sciences for Mercer U. A friend of mine is an engineer, however (he happens to be the bassist in my band)and I learn a lot from him as he does from me. Nah, I don’t like name-calling, someone here, don’t remember who, called me a liberal first for some reason, and that got my dander up. At any rate, everyone is making good points here. Lately, we teachers have been dumped on more and more with endless beaurocratic stuff that someone else could easily do, allowing us to do our “other” job: actually teaching students. I’ve said this many times: there are some useless time consuming duties that teachers are forced to do every day that need to be changed. But the only people who have the power to change that don’t have to DO those duties, so nothing is done. It’s the catch 22 of our existence here. We need good administration in education that can see the trees as well as the forest.

By David

March 4, 2005 02:00 PM | Link to this

Well said DS :-)

By Benjamin Smith

March 4, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this

The question isn’t whether a non-teacher could do a teacher’s job. Most people could not do somebody else’s job for which they are not trained and have no experience. Duh.

The question is, how do employees — teachers specifically, effectively complaints about their working conditions.

Folks, grow up. On the job problems exist in both the public sector and the private sector. It really isn’t all that different. School administrators can be jerks and so can corporate managers. Duh. Benjamin

By hildymac

March 4, 2005 02:09 PM | Link to this

No, I haven’t gotten the bitter cynicism that some of my co-workers and former HS teachers that I keep in touch with have. My optimism though tends to lay with the students, not with the parents… on their part, I have dealt with so many that have NO idea that their child hasn’t been to class in 2 weeks that it’s pathetic (and we wonder where the kids learn it from - wow). But yes - at the same time seeing the self destructive cycle these kids are in it makes me concerned for them. Sometimes I just want to shake them and yell “STOP IT” at them, but… anyways, yeah, I know it’s rare to get everything done in the school day and leave at 3, and still feel like you did a good job… I’ve never done it. Like I said, I did my planning at home, or at my 2nd job when I had some free time, but I still managed to get enough done over the course of the day that I was very satisfied when I left. But then again, I’m OCD. I think that might have something to do with it.

Derek, regarding your post, I too agree. We had a physics teacher when I was in HS who was brilliant - and NO ONE had any idea what he was talking about because he wasn’t too hot at communicating the information that he gave to us in a way we could apply. That is what makes a good teacher… giving information and then showing students how to apply it. It takes a while to catch on, but once you get into the flow, yeah, it’s not a problem. The problems arise with the classroom management, which you are highly fortunate that you don’t have to deal with. Be thankful you don’t have to tell your coworker to stop jonsing on another worker’s mama before a fight breaks out. It’s not the learning of the information but presenting it in a way the kids get - and making sure they don’t kill each other. Now, if you put me in your job, you’re darn skippy you’d find me staring at a bunch of stuff. I’m mathematically challenged, which I guess would be why I’m a history teacher. Without proper training it would be impossible for me to do your job. Well, ok, even WITH proper training it’d be impossible. But yeah, I agree that you could probably teach a class - we had a teacher in HS who had a nuclear physics degree from GT, and she did juuuust fine.

By Derek

March 4, 2005 02:10 PM | Link to this

I think hildy makes an excellent point about time management. In four of living with me, I can count on one hand how many times I saw him grade stuff at home. And this was not because he was handing our ScanTron tests. He made a point to give essays to prepare the kids for the writing they would have to do in college. He managed to get it done at school. Also, I know several teachers in his district, and if you guys are spending all but 1 or 2 weeks in the summer, you might want to switch districts! Sure some have athletic practices, a la the cheerleading practice cited, but this something done voluntaryily over and above the normal teaching duties (and often compensated by some type of stipend, though small I know, as well) and some development courses, but they are not stuff all summer. One guy I know in particular is big into RVing on extended road trips during the summer. So based on first hand observation, I do not buy that all teachers are spending all summer in courses and non-optional activities.

By hildymac

March 4, 2005 02:13 PM | Link to this

DS, can I hug you for the administration comments you made? Seriously. Administration not only dumps random tasks on us, they also make us do stuff that they feel will be “beneficial” to our classrooms that will do a poop’s worth of difference, and we’re required to. My opinion is what goes on in my room is my business, and as long as the kids learn, no one gets shot, and standards are met or exceeded, well… butt out. That was said jokingly - but only to a degree. Another problem we have is with lack of support from administration, especially in discipline areas, when they don’t feel like dealing with stuff. YOu have no idea how many times I’ve written up students for offences that would get them suspended in regular schools only to have them come trapising back into my room at the end of the day. The kids know nothing’ll happen, and therefore the behavior problems increase… and their ability to learn decreases.

By hildymac

March 4, 2005 02:19 PM | Link to this

Yeah, I’ve never given a scantron test in my LIFE. I hate them, and the kids take one look at them and figure “slack test” and blow it. I had multiple choice, true false, short answer (3-5 lines) and a really huge 4 paragraph essay question on every one of my US history tests. Yeah, they were a pain, but I rarely took them home to grade - and if I did, I didn’t take that many. How? Well, the second a student handed one in I started grading them while the kids had another thing to work on - and a lot of times I had that classes’ tests back to them by the end of the period, which the kids LOVED. They so appreciate quick grading and instant feedback. That also made it to where the day after the test I could review it with them and go over concepts that they might have missed while it was still fresh in their minds… not 2 weeks later when no one cares about the Guilded Age anymore (not that they did to begin with - teacher included). Getting stuff done in a reasonable amount of time isn’t just good for us - it’s better for the kids too. It makes them see that their work is your top priority, and that’s a bigger self-esteem booster than anything else we can offer.

By Derek

March 4, 2005 02:20 PM | Link to this

Ah, DS, the problem with this format, if that our messages are listed above for all to see. From you: “Oh, no, Derek and Cliff are neocons? Nevermind. Ignorance is its own reward.” From which I inferred you were a liberal since you seemed to think calling me a gasp conservative was an insult, and then you further insinuated that we were ignorant for being conservative. Fine. Can we please put to rest who called names first? I stood corrected that you were not a liberal and have not called you name one since, but you persist. It really makes it hard to take someone seriously whose arguments are continually laced with personal insults and name-calling.

By Amanda

March 4, 2005 02:25 PM | Link to this

In our school, coaching isn’t necessarily optional. Everyone coaches or runs the risk of being involuntarily transferred to another school in the district when we are under enrollment. How’s that for job security? And yes, I agree that I could go to another district where it’s not part of my job to do as much staff development or coach, but then I would be the victim of a large cut in PAY!! So, again, the Catch 22. I won’t complain about my pay, but don’t assume that all teachers spend their summers RVing. Wish I could afford an RV. Also, I am excellent at time management, and I still work at home and after hours. I teach HIGH SCHOOL ENGLISH to 120 kids!! So, time management isn’t an issue—it’s an issue of having time at ALL! I get the same amount of planning time as those who teach P.E. and watch kids run all day long. I would be interested to know what your friends do teach, Derek. You mention essays—I grade at least five sets of 120 essay every grading period. Oh, by the way, I am now sitting here after school hours waiting for a student to finish a test that he missed while he was absent… . Another perk!! Of course, I would not do what the teachers in Berkeley did and just tell him that I am unavailable… that would just be “unteacherly” of me.

By SMC

March 4, 2005 02:27 PM | Link to this

Not only do teachers get paid much less than other professionals, they often spend their own personal money on classroom supplies. The fact that some people argue about giving teachers a raise is a joke. These businesmen are so off the mark. How many of them would use their own money to buy supplies for their company? None. The point I am making is that we are talking about CHILDREN—- Teachers will teach with less pay, they will spend thie own money. Why? Because they actually care about children, they care about education, and for this they should be paid a lot more than they are.

By hildymac

March 4, 2005 02:34 PM | Link to this

Ahhhh, yes… teachers suppling, well, supplies to kids. I don’t do it here, or when I do with pens & pencils, well… I charge the kids for them. It teaches them responsibility - you know, come to school with what you’re supposed come to school with. It’s not in my job description that I HAVE to spend money so kids who are lazy-butts can “forget” a pen so they can’t do work. They need to learn some economics and capitilism… as do the school districts seeing as how we’re scraping for $$ for TP. Enough with this whole “kids bring in supplies for the community pot and they’re used for everyone.” Man, if I just spent $1.50 of my allowance on a box of colored pencils, they’re MINE. I don’t mind letting kids borrow what they need, but come to school prepared.

By Cliff Mozelle

March 4, 2005 02:39 PM | Link to this

No whining. How come noone (except me)wants to bash this gal for being obstinant? Isn’t there something called insubordination? This tactic doesn’t work in the business world. I’m sure the majority of teachers in this thread are worth their salaries. Don’t they think this gal should be smacked down? Dang!

By Derek

March 4, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this

hildymac, don’t change that attitude! We need more teachers like you that still have that positive outlook. I know any job, especially one with you have to deal with 30 kids, so if you become more jaded it would be easy to understand. However, I am so impressed with your optimism and enthusiasm. At the risk of bringing DS down on me, we need more people like you out here in the corporate world! :)

By David

March 4, 2005 02:40 PM | Link to this

SMC - 1) In what way are we off the mark? Please explain.

2) you are also incorrect in your assumption regarding personal spending for business purposes.

I think it’s great you care about the children.

By hildymac

March 4, 2005 02:49 PM | Link to this

Haha - thank you. :^D Personality wise, I think I’d be better suited for the corporate world since I don’t appreciate BS (not saying that there’s not BS in corporations - just a different kind). However, God graced me with talent in the social sciences, and no matter how much I can psychoanalyze the causes of the Russian Revolution and compare them to the causes of the French one, that skill just isn’t gonna hack it in business. I love history too much to imagine not having it as the integral part of my career - which is why I plan to get my PhD outta the way soon and teach college. I wouldn’t mind working with the organization and rigours that are required of coporations, but I can’t unless they need a qualified historian. That, and I kinda dig teaching.

By Quay

March 4, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this

ARE YOU GUYS SERIOUS? I have read only about half of the comments made and your opinions make me question your humanity. We do not know ALL the issues that surrounded this decision by these teachers. The article is VERY vague about what they dealt with (or didn’t deal with) before this decision was made.

I am a teacher and I take what I am given as pay because this was my profession of choice. I knew the pay amount when I went into teaching (which as a single mother of 3 doesn’t make ends meet in my house).

In reference to the comments that we have all these “perks” as a teacher, we don’t really. We don’t have 2 months off from work nor do we have 4 true weeks of vacation during the year. Have you ever looked at the amount of paperwork a teacher takes home with them over the weekend or on those “breaks”? We also must go to school ourselves in order to keep the certificate that allows us to work. Someone made the comment that we knew what we were making going into our jobs, did you make your decisions to work without the “breaks” you think we get?

I can understand these teacher’s opinions — I am not sure that I would work somewhere/anywhere for 2 years without at least a Cost of Living Allowance (COLA) increase. However, I chose teaching over all other professions because it is the kids that are important to me. I am very concerned about all those I teach and how they do in and out of school. Yet, if a teacher were paid what they were worth to begin with, this problem would not ever arise.
If it weren’t for a teacher, none of you would be successful in your jobs!!

Every child in this nation has the right to a free public education, but if you have the money to spend to put your child in a private school go ahead. There are problems in both public and private education; you have your opinions and your choice to place your child in whatever setting that you feel is best. Just don’t kill the messenger (teacher) in the process.
As a teacher, and a mother, I am very commited to my children and don’t plan to change my career now. However, if I ever have to go without a COLA increase for 2 years I will be forced to look elsewhere for employment so that I can take care of my children at home (they are my FIRST priority).

By David

March 4, 2005 02:53 PM | Link to this

Cliff - I assume that you are referring to the teacher in the story. Heck yes - as I said yesterday - I wish she worked for me!! I would just love - and I mean LOVE to fire the crap out of her. I think that was the 1st time I got called ‘narrow minded’ :-)

By David

March 4, 2005 03:02 PM | Link to this

Quay - exactly my point.

“if I ever have to go without a COLA increase for 2 years I will be forced to look elsewhere for employment”

If they don’t like their working conditions, for God sake leave. Don’t cheat the children though. If more teachers left, they would have to pay more to attract qualified prospects. As it appears now, there seem to be no shortage of teachers willing to work for current pay.

And … What does humanity have to do with poor job performance? You don’t do your job - you should be fired !

By hildymac

March 4, 2005 03:07 PM | Link to this

raising hand I was the one who said we knew what we were getting in to… I’m the teacher. And I’m sure that these guys knew what they were getting in to when they signed up as well. Will you guys PLEASE stop being so defensive about this? They’re not saying we’re overpaid, or we don’t work, or whatever you guys keep saying. READ their arguements and for God sake, use those critical thinking skills we’re supposed to teach the kids and ANSWER THEIR POINT OF VIEW. Stop spewing invective and prattling on about “poor pitiful us.” And BTW, I read the whole article on the Drudge Report website, and the whole story still makes them look like selfish twits. Yeah, 2 years w/o a COLA increase sucks, but that’s not set in stone… and it’s not set in stone in the corporate world, either. Need I remind you that we’re the only profession that gets automatic pay raises every year after the 1st 3 years of teaching, and even bigger ones right off the bat when we get advanced degrees? No one else gets that. Oh, yeah… wow. I feel SO bad for those teachers teaching for 25 years with a masters degree making $65K. Boo hoo.

By David

March 4, 2005 03:15 PM | Link to this

Thank you Hildymac. :-)

By Derek

March 4, 2005 03:24 PM | Link to this

SMC, that is silly if you think “businesspeople” never spend anymore on materials help do our jobs. Some do so more than others. Some are reimbursed in total, some partially, and some not at all. That is why there is a tax deduction for business-related expenses. I suspect you have never worked outside of the education to really think that this is the case.

For the record, I know teachers spend money from their own pocket and it irritates me that they have to do this. Some may construe my comments to think I against teachers. Not at all. I join in the frustration of all the needless overhead they give y’all but that is the reality of government. (Personally, I would like to see education privatized, but that is a different topic!) Case in point, you see Cobb Co. about to spend gobs of taxpayer dollars on a laptop for all middle and high schoolers. This is a pointless waste of money when I am willing to bet that there are other basics in Cobb that are not being taken care. Heck, if the money HAS to be spent, I would rather see those funds go to giving a teacher raise!

By Derek

March 4, 2005 03:32 PM | Link to this

I think we can sit here in the front war and watch hildy cross swords with her fellow teachers and cheer her on! Go Hildy!! RAH RAH RAH! :)

By Derek

March 4, 2005 03:49 PM | Link to this

Quay:

I think a COLA is a very reasonable expectation and I would have almost no problem with that as a given. The hang-up is, as hildy said, this is not a given in the corporate world. In fact, a lot of times, a company can not only not afford a COLA but may wind up laying you off! At least, for the most part, teachers do not have to worry about this. Also, remember that your COLA is my tax increase. If we were not already so overburdened with taxes, I would shurg it off. But at some point, taxpayers have to demand to our elected representatives, including school board members, that enough is a enough, no new taxes - make do with what you have. Unfortunately, no one has the guts to turn off the spigot on education as they are convinced that more money equals better education. I do not think this is the case because if it were, our education system would be better than it was years ago. So giving teachers a COLA is not as simple an issue as it appears, though I do think that it is generally warranted.

As for every child being entitled to an education, I agree and I think society benefits from a general level of education. However, let’s figure out a way to make sure that those who are financially able contribute more to that cost rather than just expecting a free education. Now home owners pay the bulk of the eduction expense even when they do not have kids like myself. The downside here is that without a more equitable system of covering education costs, it makes it more difficult to send a child to private school. If I had kids and I sent them to private school, I would be paying for their education out of pocket and supporting others’ education through my taxes. A more equitable contribution system would mean that if I chose not to send my kids to public schools, I could redirect more of my funds to private education. A side effect of this would be that it would establish a quasi-competitive system where schools would improve to get new “customers” (students) to increase their funding base.

By Jace

March 4, 2005 04:14 PM | Link to this

I think this argument about who could do what job is a red herring. The earlier discussion about supply and demand is what applies. Right now, the people you are talking to are teachers who ARE committed to their jobs and want the system to work for them. If you want to believe that they have such an easy job, go ahead. Just remember supply and demand.

The current trend is that teachers who care about what they are doing are being replaced by teachers who don’t care. Remember, supply and demand? Well, if we don’t supply the commensurate salaries for professionals in the education field you end up with a pool of applicants which resembles a cesspool. Schools all over the country are struggling with filling the vacancies left by people who thought teaching was easy and wanted the summer vacation so they gave it a shot. In Los Angeles Unified School District, the job turnover rate is such that over 50% of the workforce will LEAVE THE PROFESSION within the first two years they are employed. When I left L.A.U.S.D to come to Georgia and teach because I couldn’t afford a house on a teacher’s salary, they were experimenting with the notion of paying for immigrants with a middle school education from the Philippines to come over and be trained as teachers because they needed a warm body in the classroom. Ultimately that plan was nixed, but it gives one insight into how desperate public schools are. The most highly educated parts of our society ARE going into the private sector. You gripe about bad teachers and then have the nerve to gripe about paying us more? Remember supply and demand? If the pay scale is lower, people will look elsewhere and you’ll end up with the lowest elements of our society doing this job with ABSOLUTELY no remorse for the pitiful job they are doing. At the very least, the teachers who have spoken up here want the system to be better.

I get that guys like you will always put your kids in private schools away from whatever harm or foul befalls the other children. You won’t have to worry about their education because you’ll be paying their teacher’s salary. I always had a problem with that because, to me, it seemed like a conflict of interest, but what do I know. The wealthier you are, the less expectation we can have for your child. Anyway, what we’re really talking about here is the slow denigration of a public institution. PUBLIC means we all share in it. PUBLIC means that it teaches us how to get along with one another. It also means that teachers don’t have to cater to one parent over another because he added a wing onto the school library. What will replace that kind of institution when it is extinct?

As for the talk of unions. Teachers need unions for the same reason doctors need malpractice insurance. As a teacher, if you gently tap a kid on the shoulder, because you want him to be quiet, you’re liable to get sued for abuse. You are constantly in the crossfire between politicians and parents. Each side constantly demanding yet another job requirement which you don’t have time during the normal work day to fulfill. Teaching also cannot be quantified. Good and bad teachers can’t be judged on the number of genius students they turn out. That’s preposterous. That’s what makes NCLB so preposterous. You get dummies in your class along with the genius kids. That’s public school. You have to educate all of them and you devote yourself to it. Some days you hate it and you wonder, “What have I gotten myself into?â€? Other days you feel replenished because you have the absolute good kind of knowledge that says you helped several light bulbs go off in the minds of children. You made them think.

The time is coming when all this discussion will be irrelevant anyway. People only respond to looming threats when they are at the back door. Americans won’t really make an effort to conserve the energy they waste until gas is over $10 a gallon and the acid rain actually eats through their porch screen, so why worry about public schools until THEIR kid is beaten up every day and he doesn’t know how to add or can’t even manage to use standard English when he writes a response on a blog.

By hildymac

March 4, 2005 04:29 PM | Link to this

This post’s in response to Derek’s. Yep, COA’s in response to an increase in taxes, and that’s always going to happen when schools are concerned. Why? Oh, because of what you said - more money equals better education. Hahahaha - oh, GOD, how wrong that is. Yeah, the laptops in Cobb’ll help out, but will they make the kids smarter? No. Will they make them want to do more because the iBooks are cool? Possibly. Will the iBooks improve the quality of class presentations? Probably. Will they take away the fact that the kids used to have to apply EFFORT to their education? Yep. I’m just a selfish advocate of this program because I want my laptop, dangit. Actually, I want a working computer in my room, but I digress. Do I think that the tax increase could have been better allotted? Heck yeah I do, but whatever. In this state, no amount of money will improve the educational system. We’re too lost and unfocused here. We subscribe to the educational flava (as the kids would say) of the month - and those things never work. Ever. No one here pays any attention to what successful regions of the nation, like the midwest and the northeast, do. We just cry “Impoverishment!” and blame our crappy test scores on socieo-economic reasons and the like. Yeah, the midwest has a higher per capita than the south. But we had some poor regions up there too, and the poor kids did just as well as the better-off ones. Why? Because we weren’t coddled or hugged every time we screwed up. We were expected to take responsibility for our education and our mistakes, and we were made equal partners in our own education. Perhaps if that happened here once in a while, these random tax hikes would be unnecessary.

As far as every child being entitled to an education, I agree as well - obviously, seeing as how I teach. But… there comes a point that either a student realizes that he’s not academically focused but he’s better at technical things, or else he’s just such a holy terror in the classroom that he ruins others’ chances to learn. THOSE children, I believe, should be given a choice of going to a vo-tech school or an institution more appropriate to the way that they learn in lieu of high schools. Yes, the basics taught at HS should be taught at those schools too, but leave the Latin to the students who want to learn or who are more interested in that subject. Thankfully no one held a gun to my head in college to make me take useless courses that wouldn’t benefit me… why should we do it to high school kids? Hey - from the guys who I agree with, though - seriously, thanks for the support. Sometimes i’s tough being a bitter realist. :^D

By David

March 4, 2005 04:34 PM | Link to this

LOL - Please refer to one posting this board that says that teachers have an easy job !

Results come from accountability. Liberal mentality believes that the best way to fix a broken system is to throw more money at it.

I agree with Derek - privatize the system.

Let the private sector get rid of the red tape, clean out the riff raff, improve results, and improve accountability to give good teachers the oppertunity to earn more.

By David

March 4, 2005 04:36 PM | Link to this

Vouchers at a minimum

By hildymac

March 4, 2005 04:40 PM | Link to this

This one’s in response to Jace. I agree with your statements about people taking teaching jobs and then quitting after a year b/c they figured that it’d be slack and they had all this vacation… and then reality smacks them upside the head, they pansy out, and quit. Those people should have had some sort of common sense before they became educators, or at least should have gone to a university where they got a taste of what it was like BEFORE they graduated - I had 4 seperate field experiences before I was outta KSU, and a lot of people realized teaching wasn’t for them after the 1st one. And yes, if the salaries are that low, what incentive should a vet teacher have to stay? But that’s where increased benefits to teachers who exceed standards or who have been teaching since God was a boy should come in… the new folks (like myself) should be paid a fair wage, but not too much seeing as how most of them fruit & run. I would have moved out of CA too.

They ACTUALLY did that in LA with the immigrants? Holy CRAP. And I thought that certification program in GA was bad (you know, have any old random BS or BA, take a 2 week course, and you too can teach! God, all that’s missing is Sally Struthers). Something that people miss though about why they have problems getting teachers to some schools is that it has nothing to do with pay. I get paid as much as a 1st year teacher in an affluent part of the county. But why do teachers fight to go to the better off schools? Part of it is the students, and I hate to say it. Looking at the problems in schools in different parts of the counties, I think it’s safe to say that schools in East Cobb don’t have kids walking down the halls flashing gang signs like kids in the south part of the county. Yeah, they have different problems in the more wealthy areas, but for whatever reason these kids realize that school isn’t social hour and that they’re there to learn. The kids in other parts of the county could give 2 poops about their education… they just want to talk about what gang they’re in. Teachers don’t want to deal with this ingraned facination with violence, drugs, and ultimately failure, and that’s why a lot quit or get burned out. I’m not saying this is a racial thing, because I know just as many white kids of mine involved in horrible things as I have minority kids, and there are some white kids in less affluent parts of the county who have no direction, and there are black kids in wealthier parts of the county who blow their white counterparts out of the water. But like that saying goes… “When in Rome…” I think that to a degree different economic classes place different emphasis on education. It’s not being bigoted to say that… it’s practically a proven fact. And you bet I agree with the fact that people won’t do anything until the situtation hits crisis levels as far as teacher retention, etc. goes… but judging by what I see every day, people don’t do a dang thing when it does, either.

By Derek

March 4, 2005 04:55 PM | Link to this

Jace,

Sorry, but I am not going to buy that there is no way to get some type of measureable out of teaching. You cited the number of geniuses in a group of students. You completely sidestepped the notion that you do this assessment on average, relative to a similar sample.

You points on supply and demand are valid and if the supply drops precipitously, there will be changes. In areas of metro Atlanta you are seeing this with science and math teachers. In theory they should be paid more as fair compensation in the private sector for those with a similar education would be significantly higher. With all due respect to our resident conservative teacher, hildy, there is not nearly the demand in the private sector for those with history and english backgrounds. However, will this happen? Nope. First, government bureacracy will prevent it and second, teachers unions would never go for a unbalanced wage structure for teachers teaching different subjects. It might fly in this area where thankfully, teachers unions are fairly weak.

As for the downfall of our public education system, it is run by government so what more do we expect? Look at all the other programs that government has touched? In government efforts to run our lives from cradle to grave, it has often created far more problems than it has solved. Why would education be any different? The surprising fact is that it has taken this long. As I said before, privatize education and get the government out of the education business. That would solve a lot of the issues we ahve talked about in this forum, especially the excessive responsibility overhead dumped on teachers.

By hildymac

March 4, 2005 05:01 PM | Link to this

Oh, trust me - I know there’s no demand for my field… it was next to impossible for me to find a job. Why? Because people think than English and SS are easy subjects and everyone and their mother goes into them. They’re a PAIN - grading papers to me is probably worse than grading math tests - at least there there is a cut and dry right or wrong answer. Do I believe that math and science teachers need to be given pay incentives to get them into the field? Heck yes… we need them, and ones that preferably know what they’re doing. The only incentive we have for them is their masters degrees are paid for by the HOPE Promise scholarship, which won’t pay for my degree. I really don’t take issue with this, because I know for a fact that I’d have to be bribed to teach a math course. :^D