Get Schooled

By FJM

February 21, 2005 04:03 PM | Link to this

What children learn in the classroom has to be reinforced outside of the classroom. If parents do not take an active role in their childrens education how can you hold a teacher accountable. When parents let the children play video games and do not monitor after school activities and encorage them to read the lessons from school are not being taken seriously by the parents

By FJM

February 21, 2005 04:04 PM | Link to this

What children learn in the classroom has to be reinforced outside of the classroom. If parents do not take an active role in their childrens education how can you hold a teacher accountable. When parents let the children play video games and do not monitor after school activities and encourage them to read the lessons from school are not being taken seriously by the parents

By FJM

February 21, 2005 04:07 PM | Link to this

sorry about the double post

By APS teacher

February 21, 2005 04:16 PM | Link to this

Of course this is not fair. Some teachers will be saddled with kids who will learn a lot slower than “normal, or whose parents have little regard for education, or who have much more pressing “issues” than education on their minds, and other teachers, by the luck of the draw, will get brilliant self starters who are tutored after school and the weekends because their parents can afford it, think its important, or both.

That much is obvious to anyone in public schools. Perhaps one way for the idea to work would be peer assesment, made by those who work at the same site and can factor in different variables, although my school has so much political pecking that certain teachers, regardless of their academic success, may never receive their due compensation.

The problem in public education can only partially be solved by hiring/firing teachers. There are so many different parts of the picture to take into account: In no particular order, and just an overview of a few: cronyism at APS downtown, slave mentality teachers who will not strike or fight back at unfair practices thrust upon them from administration personnell, self-important administrators who see themselves at the top of the local heap, rather than part of a wheel that revolves in which different parts rotate to ‘most important’ at different times (parts include administartion, parents, teachers, students, support staff and community), undermotivated, lazy or ‘picked the wrong career’ teachers who should move on or get with it, parents who don’t inderstand the critical role of education in breaking the cycle of poverty, racism, mistrust, and other social diseases.

By Nicole

February 21, 2005 04:57 PM | Link to this

Being a teacher and mother of three school-age children, I have no problem with this. Teaching is a skill, some have it, others dont. On the flip side of being a teacher worried whether parents are involved with homework or not- as a parent,the years I have had to TEACH my children their homework tells me what their teachers were going to be like for that year. My children are honor roll students not only because of me, but because I ensure that their teachers are able to do just that. If you are good at what you do, why wouldn’t you want to prove that? I think this is an excellent idea.

By cp

February 21, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this

Teacher’s unions will fight any attempt at implementing a merit pay system by claiming the assessment procedure is not fair. They are right. No assessment is completely fair. Do you want to see my last performance review? Unreasitic goals, bla bla, bla.

The point is we have to find a way to encourage our goo dteachers so they will stay, and also be able to recruit good teachers. Money is one way. Another is by letting the best teachers teach the best students — which of course complicates the teacher measurement process.

It’s difficult, but not impossible. Maybe the students, parents, and principals should have some input as well. We’ve got to find a way.

By the way, it’s much easier to measure the principal. Year to year improvement in SAT scores is a good start.

By Melody DeLoach

February 22, 2005 08:19 AM | Link to this

Dear Ms. Ghezzi, Did you know that Mr. Vanairsdale was one of the final 3 candidates for Superintendent at Putnam County in Eatonton Geaorgia? This job pays currently about $100,000. I am concerned as a taxpayer and a citizen about this situation. Why is he leaving the Fulton County job? Please send me any information that you can ASAP. Thank you. Melody DeLoach

By chuck

February 22, 2005 08:54 AM | Link to this

I would like to see the full plan before I pass judgement on it. As a teacher, I know that there are way too many variables to use ONE assessment as a measure of student success. I teach 8th graders and 97% of them met or exceeded the standard on last year’s CRCT. Under any standard of assessment, I think I did a good job teaching. My concern is over making sure that some of those other variables are taken into consideration.

For instance, what about the self-contained elementary school teacher who teaches 25 kids, who has something traumatic happen during the week of testing. Maybe a parent of one of the students dies or something tragic happens in the community. Or maybe there is some sort of special program in the school that gets the kids all hyper. If you are going to hold these teachers accountable, you have to give them some control over when and how testing is done. It is possible to make some sort of assessment work, but there is no substitution for a great administrator who knows what is going on in the building, and isn’t afraid to deal with problem teachers.

By skh

February 22, 2005 09:22 AM | Link to this

I have real problems with “put the best teachers with the best students”. Does that mean give the “best” teachers the kids that are the “best behaved” or the “best learners”? If teachers are the “best”, then they should be able to teach ALL students, and the students that aren’t the “best” need those teachers THE MOST. I teach science at a high school with a bit of heirarchy, where classes (in the recent past) were assigned to teachers by the number of years they’d been at the school. That meant the teachers with the least experience tended to get the classes with the most behavior issues. This is supposed to IMPROVE education? As long as these types of things occur, and longetivity is related to “quality” in many peoples’ minds, then we will NOT improve.

By Elaine

February 22, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this

In some ways I believe this would be a good thing to do. However, there are certain schools with a students that come from a different background that the same learning standard might not be the same as some of the area schools. The biggest problem that I would have with this is that I have heard how my children say that when they have an evaluation test of this sort coming up at school, the teacher “prepares” them for the test for at least two weeks prior to their taking it by cramming in class.

I think that the main problem with our schools is that their is too much fluff in the classrooms and schools. Each school tries to make themself look so good with all the little reading contest and all the other little competitions that it overworks the teachers in putting on some sort of show. Most of it is to make the school or teacher look good or to entertain the children. Their are way too many “projects” decorating our hallways and not enough of indepth book learning in the classroom. Our kids are not learning reasoning skills and being taught the basics. Even the text books have way too much fluff in them in an effort to keep a child’s interest and make it look interesting but what it really does is overwhelm and confuse a child as to what the real lesson is about(i.e. a math book with social studies and science lesson in it). In this day and age the whole entire curriculum, books, learning strategies, teaching tools, age/grade level requirements need to be reevaluated and revamped. Our children could learn so much more with what we have available. Perhaps it has to start in our universities…someone somewhere has to rethink how our education system works or doesn’t work….

By Kamelya

February 22, 2005 10:43 AM | Link to this

I totally agree with this, and I feel that principles should be assessed as well. We have some excellent teachers out there who go the extra mile for our children and they should be rewarded. We also have teachers who need to understand that teaching is more than a job, it is a calling. They need to put up or shut up and find another career. Don’t use my kid just to get your bills paid. If you’re gonna be a teacher….then TEACH! I know parents must do their share and I think all schools should have a mandatory parental volunteer policy like the theme schools in Dekalb County. They have proven to be successful. We are all in this together.

By Patti Ghezzi

February 22, 2005 10:44 AM | Link to this

Melody, Please contact Diane Stepp at dstepp@ajc.com for information about the Vanairsdale situation in Fulton. Diane has reported that problems with Fulton’s massive school construction program may have led to Vanairsdale’s departure.

Patti Ghezzi

By chuck

February 22, 2005 10:51 AM | Link to this

The education system works just fine for those students who WANT to learn. The problem is that we are not very good at dealing with those who DON’T WANT TO LEARN. We have so many kids who don’t have their minds on school because of what is going on at home. Just this year, we have had 2 students who had to deal with court cases due to being sexually molested, two students who have lost parents, several who have been arrested for being incorrigible, a number whose parents are going through divorces. No matter how good I am, some of these kids are not going to get what they need to pass the test in the short run. Fortunately, most of them are able to work through the problems over time, but when they get behind it is so hard for them to catch up. I wish the world was perfect, because then it would be easy to hold EVERYONE accountable, but under the current conditions it is difficult at best. In spite of that MOST of the teachers I know are doing a great job. Everybody knows who isn’t and we should deal with those.

By Jen

February 22, 2005 11:22 AM | Link to this

This is in regards to the comments from SKH about veteran teachers teaching the upper level (or more desired classes) This is the case in most schools. Principals tend to want to keep their more experienced teachers. They have invested time with them and already know these teachers are reliable and dependable. A new teacher coming in doesn’t have a track record yet. Experienced teachers that tend to sponsor the extracurricular activites, work on the SACS committees and do various other things that are NOT usually mentioned when one is a teacher. I understand the resentment of a new teacher coming in at the bottom of the totem pole. I have been there. I taught at risk 9th graders my first two years, I floated and I did various other things no one else would do because I was so desperate to get a job. I hate to say that is just the way it is, but please remember, every teacher has at one point or another, taught the classes no one else wanted. Transferring schools is not the answer either. If you do, you wind right back at the bottom of the heap. Complaining about your course load doesn’t make anyone see your side and may brand you as a whiner. Everyone starts out somewhere and I know that without the difficulty of my first two years, I would not be nearly as good a teacher as I am today.

By Amy

February 22, 2005 11:48 AM | Link to this

Kudos to Chuck’s comment. He hit the bull’s eye about the students who want to learn. Motivation is probably THE most important factor in a child’s learning. And bad home situations DO affect a child’s performance at school. That’s one thing every teacher has to come to grips with—that he/she can do practically nothing about the homes in which the kids are raised. You do what you can with what you’ve got.

By C.M.

February 22, 2005 12:53 PM | Link to this

Thanks Chuck and Amy! Kamelya, you made me laugh hysterically! You must be pretty mad a teacher. While you (Kamelya) had a few points that are true like “teaching is a calling” and “We have some excellent teachers out there who go the extra mile…â€? the rest is kind of funny. You can forget getting a parent to help in any matter if that parent happens to be one of the Moms or Dads the little disruptions a teacher spends most of their time with. I have been to TOO many PTAs and open houses where you only meet the parents that care. I can promise you that the kid with the “extended” vocabulary - you will not meet the parent. The kid that is bragging about the drugs and sexual conquest, the parent will be a mystery. So, I don’t know about the testing thing until something is done to bolster a teacher and give them an environment to do their job in. When this is done I cannot think of a teacher that would not go for a test that would offer a pay incentive for improvements! Then not only could their bills get paid! they could take a vacation occasionally or get off Prozac and put some of that money in the bank!

By Ernest

February 22, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this

I see two parts to this. I agree with the premise of “what gets measured gets improved”. We should test children at the beginning and end of a school year and analyzed the results. One might say that testing throughout the year would yield a more timely assessment of ‘teaching effectiveness’ but this measure also helps with understanding long term retention.

I would NOT want to see this tied to teacher salaries. A teacher has contact with a child for about 6 hours a day. That teacher has no control over what that child does the remaininhg 18 hours. There are too many variables the teacher does not have control of to tie their salary to. What might be interesting is to offer a bonus for those help children realize a significant increase in test scores. For those who are also motivated by extra money (and some good teachers are), it might encourage them to work with children starting at a ‘lower’ point, as they could have the greatest opportunity for percentage increase. Stonger, qualified teachers can have the greatest impact on a child receiving a good education.

By cp

February 22, 2005 02:51 PM | Link to this

Chuck, the education system in GA is NOT working just fine or we wouldn’t be 49th in SAT scores. I’m not a teacher — and neither are the politicians. You are, so tell us how do we fix it? I don’t doubt that the majority of teachers are doing the best they can. That has been my experience as well. But we have to face the fact that we have a big problem in GA that the politicians can’t seem to fix.

What can be done?

By chuck

February 23, 2005 09:01 AM | Link to this

cp, I think we have made a good start toward fixing the problem under Superintendent Cox. We have streamlined the curriculum K-12, but teachers have to be trained on the new Georgia Performance Standards, so full implementation is still a couple of years off. Under the QCC’s we had a curriculum that was a mile wide and an inch deep. Those of us who had success under those standards were the ones who didn’t worry so much about the tests and took our students deeper than the curriculum called for. I’ve never been one to worry too much about tests and such, because I know that my students will do well on them because they know how to think. As far as SAT scores go, that is really not a good measure of how the students rank nationally. In many states the majority of students take the ACT. In Georgia we have a much higher percentage of students taking the SAT than most states, including those students who are on a vocational track. It just isn’t as bad as the newspapers make it out to be. There are a few things that people generally do not understand about education.

First, many people think because they spent 13 years in school, they are experts. This could not be further from the truth. Parents want EVERY OTHER KID to behave, but when you discipline THEIR KIDS, they are ready for a fight. EVEN over some of the most trivial punishments like having to get a note signed by the parents about the behavior.

Second, You can make a change in Kindergarten today, but those improvements won’t show up for those kids as fafar as the SAT goes for 11 more years. Education is not set up to change over night.

Third, We are so penned in by rules and regulations, especially when it comes to special ed students, that we don’t have room to breathe. We often cannot do what is best for a student because we have to deal with 504 plans and IEP’s that may have been put into effect by teachers and administrators from the previous year. So even if the situation has changed, we have to go through a paperwork nightmare to change what we do with those students in the classroom.

Keep this in mind. Things are improving, it is Not HOPELESS, and it works for most students. This is MASS education (I teach 138 students each day) We cannot make it individual for each student no matter how much we try. Give us smaller class sizes (25 max in middle school) Give us leeway to deal with unruly students and get rid of ADA and I think we can make things work for more students.

By chuck

February 23, 2005 09:30 AM | Link to this

Also cp, If you reread my post I said that the school system is working just fine for the students who are motivated to learn

By C.M.

February 23, 2005 10:37 AM | Link to this

C H U C K, You are the man! T E L L it!

By chuck

February 23, 2005 11:00 AM | Link to this

Why thank you C.M.

By cp

February 23, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this

Chuck, good answer. I especially like your three ideas for improving education. Keep screaming them.

And I certainly agree that most people are not education experts — myself included. Also most politicians included. I think our situation is caused largely by politicizing the process. You teachers have to get the word out. You are the only ones that know the answers. And don’t listen to the union. They don’t represent your interests (e.g., opposing merit pay).

BUT. One point I think you must aknowledge is that the schools ARE measured by SAT scores. It may not be perfect, but it’s all we have. About a third of the states have roughly the same percentage participation that GA does. Where do we rank among them?

Also, I think (my opinion) that we are reaching an inflection point in GA. When the majority of concerned parents (and motivated students) become convinced that it’s not working for them — they will leave. Either private school or homeschool.
Perceptions matter. It will take good students, good teachers, and concerned parents to improve the situation. If they abandon the effort, we are doomed.

BTW: Don’t tell the parents of a HS student that it will take a decade to raise SAT scores. We just don’t have the time.

By chuck

February 23, 2005 02:11 PM | Link to this

I agree with your last comment cp, we don’t have the time. As for students and parents abandoning the system to private schools and home schools, that is already happening in our system. We have a public “private” high school in our town. It is a total magnet program and all of the parents want their children to go to high school there. The problem is, while it is a good school with good teachers, their scores are high because they get to pick and choose their students. Applicant students have to have an overall B average and have to pass a test to get in. We can impact SAT scores in less than 10 years and we will through the reforms that have already been put into place. Again though, full implementation is still a couple of years away, and as with any new program or curriculum change, there will be a lag time between implementation and outcomes. The key as I see it is to stop jumping on every band wagon that comes along and stick with this new program long enough for it to work.

By Gene Walker

February 23, 2005 03:52 PM | Link to this

As soon as all schools start after Labor Day and implement a balanced calendar things will get better. PBS, EQs, LFS, NCLB, AYP and HQTs will eventually cause SAT scores to skyrocket. Weighing the kids will surely create higher IQs. Who needs the parents? They never show for conferences anyway. Just be patient. The next new fad is just around the corner.

By Cathy

March 7, 2005 12:49 PM | Link to this

I have 2 children that have graduated from “a great” school in Cobb, and one still there. We have always heard that there are two types of people in the world, those with book smarts and those with common sense. I have not been impressed with the teachers that have a graduate degree. Maybe we need to have a few more with common sense. The teachers and the school district need to teach children in the way the child learns, not just way the teacher teaches. Come on folks its time to get out of the “box” and join the children who think outside of the box already.