View from the cop

By James

August 9, 2007 10:05 AM | Link to this

Unfortunately, no matter what Sandy Springs does, SOMEBODY will complain. I think the Taser represents a good option in the continuum of force, but agree with those departments that restrict a Taser’s use to situations in which there is another officer ready and able to use lethal force if the Taser is insufficient to stop the individual causing a problem. For shootings, people will complain “he only had a knife” or “he was unarmed”, without realizing just how dangerous a person can be even without a gun. It doesn’t take years of martial arts training, it just takes a willingness to hurt others and decisiveness - and the folks the police get called on frequently already have that willingness to use violence.

By Reddogg

August 9, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

The truth of the matter is that the people who are discrediting the TASER are non-law enforcement/military people. Yeah, a handgun can be lethal or non-lethal. It all depends on your time to go. No one can run away from death. If the criminal would comply with the police then police officers would not have to resort to that level of force. Officer presence should be enough to deter the criminals. IF he/she refuse to comply, then the officer has to defuse the situation reasonably, according to his departmental policies, and to his safety. It is a known fact that guns kill. So are we going to take away guns from police officers? It has not been proven that TASERs kill people. Society needs to stop trying to dictate police officers job. If you want to Monday morning quarterback policing, then go through 10, 11, 12,or 16 weeks of law enforcement training followed by 12 weeks of field training in some of the rough neighborhoods of the United States.

By JR

August 9, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

I find it interesting that the people who have died after being tased, resisted to the point of having to be tased multiple times. I would think that after being tased once, you would stop resisting. If you are intent enough on escaping to require multiple tasings, than you take your chances.

By Jaysin

August 9, 2007 11:30 AM | Link to this

Mr. Rose, while I conclude you are unwilling to cross the “blue line” and acknowledge that anything an officer does is inappropriate, how much force is needed for 11 deputies to subdue an unarmed man, handcuffed and bound in a 4-point restraint chair in a cell? If each of the police and deputies received the required training, then it was for naught. Fred Williams was shocked not twice, but six or more times directly over his heart, while another trained office cut off his breathing passage. How does one mention the Gwinnett County Jail without condemning your fellow officers, unless you believe, as the DA and Sheriff did, that Fred’s death was justified? You can view the actual police video online for yourself: Actual Police Video

By Lex Luthor

August 9, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Far more people die from complications with a bullet than with a taser. The problem with people dieing in jail though is that its happened to people in handcuffs so many times the public has no trust. Then again, that was the same jail that let an inmate walk out during the shooting of a rap video.

By Capt Bill

August 9, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this

Unfortunately, during my 28 years as a law enforcement officer, the Taser had yet to be invented. Had we had it during my career, I’m sure it would have been very beneficial to both officer and the offender.
Conveniently, most of those that has been tased,or complain about it, leave out many important facts regarding why they were tased. Such interesting facts as,,,,why was I on crack to begin with,,would be an important factor as to why they were tased. The alternative would possibly be a Glock .40.
For those 99% of officers who use the Taser correctly, it has surely saved many lives. And that includes both the officer and the offender. It surely beats the alternative. Its your choice on which one you had rather be shot with.

By C. Conner

August 9, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this

Are you sure it’s “Tased,” and not “Tasered?” We’ll let the Oxford dictionary people flip a coin over that one.

By Jaysin

August 9, 2007 12:01 PM | Link to this

The term “taser” is an acronym from the 1911 book, “Thomas A. Swift’s Electric Rifle” (T.A.S.E.R.), describing a gun that could kill by electricity alone, according to the Oxford English Dictionary. The creator, a fan of the classic Tom Swift book series, picked it for his creation. The proper use, as written, “I’ll Taser You,” Tom Swift said, shockingly.

By Jay

August 9, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this

Just what we need: criminals who were so violent that they would’ve previously been shot to death instead living to further overcrowd our prisons and undoubtedly return to the streets to commit more (violent) crimes.

No Tasers!

By Heatstroke

August 9, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

The lesson here is to not do anything to put yourself in position to be Tasered or anything else. Like Mama and Daddy always said, the correct things to say to an officer of the law are No Sir, Yes Sir and Thank you Sir.

By Dave

August 9, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

I believe when you use a taser on someone you Taserate them. A much better alternative than “Drilling ‘em full o holes” or “Making ‘em eat lead”. In the end you can have a reasonable conversation with the Taseree to discuss their behavior and perhaps encourage Talk Therapy or Rehab as a healing path. The lead eater, on the other hand, gets blood all over the place and, from what it sounds like, does not get as great a chance at a makeover. I hope the Law Enforcement Community will Tase on …

By Jaysin

August 9, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

Don’t get me wrong. I do not disapprove of the use of a Taser as an alternative to a gun. In the case of an apartment, where a stray bullet can hit someone in a neighboring unit or on a plane, it’s very appropriate and needed. To pretend, however, that it represents “less lethal” force means it will be misused as an alternative to say, talking. For any responsible use of a Taser, it must be perceived that its victim has a chance to die as a result - just as an officer would with a traditional firearm. The Taser becomes, then, an alternative weapon, rather than a shortcut to “justice.”

By JJ

August 9, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

A few years back, there was a cousin of mines who died after the taser was used on him. Since then, I’ve read many articles (not just in GA) about people dying shortly after being tasered. These numbers are increasing. That being said, shouldn’t there be more research done on this before it’s usage? Is the voltage (or whatever) too high?

By jess.me

August 9, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

Well, if I’m subject to be Tasered or gun shot, I’ll take Taser any day.

Hopefully if Im ever in that situation there will be a choice.

By ByteMan

August 9, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

JJ: there are indeed numerous studies out there on the Taser and its affect on the cardio system. The results are pretty conclusive: the odds of a Taser killing you are about the same odds as getting hit by a bolt of lightening. Over 150,000 people have been on the receiving end of a Taser hit. There are only a few who have anything close to a claim that it was the primary cause of death. Usually it’s an unusually high concentration of drugs in the person’s system that’s already overloading their heart when a hit from the Taser just increases that load past the breaking point. It’s very possible that a person that high as a kite can die even without being hit by a Taser, but now you have something else to blame instead.

Not saying this is exactly what happened in your cousin’s case and I’m sorry for your loss, but maybe there are other circumstances surrounding his case.

As for what kills, it’s the amperage. And in the taser it’s very low.

Follow the science.

By James

August 9, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this

Jaysin - my use of the term “continuum of force” was deliberate, it’s part of self-defense and use of force law, covering when different levels of force can be used, from verbal commands through varying levels of less-lethal options up to lethal force. What Steve is describing as far as training and procedures is part of the legal requirement placed on police agencies as far as continuum of force policies.

It’s also a good idea for non-law enforcement to understand what is and isn’t appropriate, to avoid legal complications. A lot of people get in trouble every year because they do what they’ve always heard is appropriate, and find out it’s not - absent other threats, it’s usually not appropriate to pull a gun on a shoplifter, for example.

By deenie

August 9, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

You cops are so funny. You all his this us against them (them being the non-lawenforcement military type). Do you go to sleep at night and if you do do you wear a police ID?

By Jaysin

August 9, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

James, thank you for the clarification. Would you consider shocking a man you know was an epileptic, who had recently suffered a grand mal seizure, 6 or more times in the chest while he is restrained in four point restraints, in a choke hold by a deputy, and surrounded by 9 other deputies and police officers? ByteMan, I will lay odds there is not ONE test where a subject is shocked that many times repeatedly while choked and restrained. If all of the tests done are with a single shock, why would any officer shock a defenseless man six or more times in the chest within a 42 second period?

By El Bubba armchair

August 9, 2007 3:05 PM | Link to this

I was thrilled when I saw officer Rose’s topic today. It’s a subject I’m interested in and I was hoping he would shed some light on the cop’s point of view. Unfortunately he is just spouting the same old propoganda.

The video posted by Jasin, above, is very disturbing. What it shows is how this weapon can be misused. Am I supposed to believe that if they hadn’t tasered the guy they would have shot him?

There are all of these news reports about cops and jailers using tasers as a weapon of convenience. If a prisoner is unruly or doesn’t do what they ask they shock him, often when he/she is hand-cuffed. In this particular video… I would think it very hard to “relax” or “calm down” when people are hurting you, if someone is grabbing your throat or sticking their knee in your chest/groin your body is going to resist/react to that pain. In other words, you can’t comply to those demands.

This man was hand-cuffed and leg-cuffed. Why not let him squirm around on the floor for awhile? I don’t know.

Perhaps the most telling piece of this video is when the female cop/jailer turns toward the camera before she enters the room and smiles. She’s just there to see what happens next and she’s enjoying it.

I find the increasing use of tasers very disturbing, especially in light of the fact that people want to blame the victim. “Byteman” (above post) would say that a majority of the victims were on drugs. His logic would have us believe that if they weren’t on drugs and had been tasered they wouldn’t have died. Blame the victim because he/she has a medical problem? Not in a civil society.

Recomended viewing, “The Island of Dr. Moreau” w/ Marlon Brando and Val Kilmer. It’s shocking.

Officer Rose, who bought the Tasers for Sandy Springs?

By Getitright

August 9, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

Wouldn’t the person who is applying the chokehold also be shocked when the victim/perpetrator is tasered? Seems a bit contrived here.

By El Bubba armchair

August 9, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

getitright,

The electricity flows between the two darts fired into the person. Anyone holding the “suspect” isn’t shocked.

I saw a drunk cop camping at a whitewater-rafting company taser one of the raft guides for fun, everyone was up for it. Two guides held the other guide over a raft that he fell on after being shocked.

The same cop was running around that night shooting fireworks, after being asked not to, and claiming “I don’t care, I’m a cop! I’ve got more firepower in my trunk than the local police!”

By Lex Luthor

August 9, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

El Bubba armchair,

I was looking at a PDF earlier on the web about death and Tasers from Amnisty International. Most the people that were documented had either cocaine, PCP, or meth in their systems. According to the coroner report most of them died from heart attacks caused by a combination of the two. I wouldn’t call a coke habbit a “medical problem.”

Jaysin, You left out the part where Fred Williams was beating his wife with a belt, and that his son was in fear of his mother’s life. That he was coherent enough to also turn his attack toward the police officers. That he never quit struggling.

By El Bubba armchair

August 9, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

Lex Luther,

You are still blaming the victim.

By Tonya C

August 9, 2007 4:19 PM | Link to this

El Bubba armchair:

Huh? Victim? Aren’t they considered a ‘suspect’ in the custody of the police? The VICTIM is the person whom they are committing the crime against.

Don’t want to get tasered…don’t screw w/the police. Every time law enforcement tried to find an alternative tool for restaint, every ‘armchair’ quarterback complains.

This is exactly why my husband is no longer in law enforcement. No one should go through four years of college to be governed in a DANGEROUS job by people who have ZERO clue what it is like to be in their shoes.

By El Bubba armchair

August 9, 2007 4:45 PM | Link to this

True or Flase:

1- Tasers have killed people.

2- Cops have used tasers when they wouldn’t have actually shot someone.

3- Cops/jailors use tasers as a weapon of convenience to get people to “Do as they are told to do”.

4- Tasers represent a good alternative to deadly force (a gimme).

5- A person on drugs is more likely to die after being tasered.

6- People not on drugs are less likely to be tasered.

7- People with certain medical conditions might appear to be on drugs.

8- People taking drugs do not have medical problems.

9- Cops do not smile and giggle when they taser their cop friends in training.

10- If a person was on drugs and died after being tasered, she deserved it.

By Jaysin

August 9, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

Lex, if I saw a video of his wife being beaten, I would have mentioned it. Besides, his wife denied it to the paper. When the ambulance for Fred did arrive, the police had him hogtied and was carrying him off their car. The Police refused to let the medical personnel treat him. Neither his wife nor child received or needed any attention.

Yes, he was at fault for having a seizure, and wandering incoherently in his driveway. He had NO drugs in his system (which was, in fact, the problem). Why a police officer with no medical training would accost him in front of his wife, his children, and his Minister, is the question.

By justin

August 9, 2007 9:12 PM | Link to this

Steve, the incident in Gwinnett County happened at an apartment complex in the Norcross area, not at the jail.

By Lt. Steve

August 9, 2007 10:10 PM | Link to this

The tasers were purchased by a non-profit group called “Friends of Sandy Springs. They purchased a motorcycle and some other things in the past.

By Lt. Steve

August 9, 2007 10:11 PM | Link to this

The tasers were purchased by a non-profit group called “Friends of Sandy Springs. They purchased a motorcycle and some other things in the past.

By ByteMan

August 9, 2007 10:43 PM | Link to this

Jayson,

You’re blaming the Taser instead of the out-of-control cops. Think about it: if they didn’t have the Taser, the out-of-control cops likely would have beaten the snot out of the guy with their batons, right? Just short of shooting him. That’s the force continuum. If I have to take my chances between getting beaten with a baton by an angry out-of-control cop or getting shot by a Taser, I’m going with the Taser.

Don’t blame the Taser. Taking the Taser away from out-of-control cops in a high-stress situation won’t improve the situation one bit. They have other more painful “non-lethal” weapons at their disposal. Blame the out-of-control cops.

By James

August 10, 2007 2:06 AM | Link to this

Will there be Tasers misused by police officers? Sure. Police are people, and not all people are worthwhile. Most departments try to screen out those who aren’t worthwhile, or who are likely to morph into bad actors, but no screening process is 100%. But this is why departments like Sandy Springs are required to have a written standard for when different levels of force MAY be justified, and to train all officers on that standard. And violating that written standard can be cause for disciplinary action within the department and grounds for criminal charges. It’s still a judgement call on the part of the officers, and always will be (although one of the hazards of modern technology is that it allows micromanagers to micromanage to a greater degree - which does NOT improve the end results, although it does increase stress and can even cause a greater possibility of poor results since the superior is not actually present and has a more limited view of what is happening than the officer involved).

The concern I (and some others have) is that the tendency of some people to always jump up and call “abuse” without waiting to find out if a given case really IS abuse is that it’ll cause the officer on the street, encountering a violent suspect, to pause too long making a decision for fear he’ll be Monday-morning quarterbacked into a jail cell. So instead his fellow officers have a big parade for him, his face is on the evening news, everybody wears black for a while, his picture goes up in the local station, and another name gets added to a memorial in DC.

Oh, and I’m NOT a police officer, although I had to take classes on the laws of lethal force when I was an armed security officer, and have paid attention to similar issues since I’m licensed to carry a handgun in public.

As for those who always cry “abuse” or “racism”? There was an incident in Huntsville, AL in the late ‘80’s or early ‘90’s where news crews were present when a detective was attempting to subdue a suspect. One cameraman panned the suspect and deputy, then to an officer running up, then to his arrival where he punched the suspect. Immediate cries of abuse, the local minority community pushed for a boycott, the whole circus. The other cameraman? He’d seen what the uniformed officer had seen, that the suspect was on the verge of getting control of the detective’s weapon, and had dropped his camera while attempting to go to the detective’s assistance.

By Reality Chick

August 10, 2007 7:29 AM | Link to this

Please take a look here for more information: http://truthnottasers.blogspot.com

By Tom

August 10, 2007 8:48 AM | Link to this

If only people would learn to be good, law abiding citizens, this wouldn’t even be a concern.

By marshal dillon

August 10, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this

There are people who stimulate themselves and others with electricity in pursuit of sexual thrills. For them, it is a hard and fast rule to never shock anyone above the waist, even though such games always involve very low current. The reason is because the heart contains a small node that emits an electric pulse which in turn stimulates the muscle contraction of a heartbeat. This node can be easily disrupted electrically, and the majority - if not all - taser deaths can probably be attributed to this. Cocaine is also known to affect the electrocardio function, so it is not surprising that drug use is also a factor in these deaths. A chemical relative of cocaine is used medically for this purpose. Other drugs do not necessarily share this characteristic, and shouldn’t be blamed for anymore than making a person more unruly or violent. Alcohol is probably the worst of these.

Any doctor should be able to confirm the danger of applying electric current near the heart, and as such, tasers should be limited to use in situations where a gun is the only other alternative. While it is dangerous, there is a much better chance of surviving a taser to the chest that a bullet. As the taser clearly constitutes deadly force, its use should be subject to a review policy similar to that of line-of-duty shootings. If officers lack the skill to subdue non-lethal suspects by hand, they should consider additional training or another career.

By Wilbur

August 10, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this

“If officers lack the skill to subdue non-lethal suspects by hand, they should consider additional training or another career”

WOW! Marshall Dillon, you are watching too many movies where the good guy whips up on 12 people using his bare hands. Try fighting in the real world….

By Tony

August 10, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this

Doesn’t sound like the “marshal” has ever been in a fight in his life. I’ve been a police officer for about 15 years. There are occasions that I do have to use a baton or pepper spray to subdue someone that’s being arrested. To quote Wilbur, try living in the real world. Most of the people on here that talk smack about police officers don’t have the guts to do the job.

By The BlogFather

August 11, 2007 8:37 AM | Link to this

My grandfather tased me once……once.

By NUNYA

August 11, 2007 7:41 PM | Link to this

Problems here: Quote *On one side, Tasers represent a good alternative to deadly force. Deadly force means shot with the intent of shooting dead, thus deadly. *

Officers shoot to STOP not kill. Did I just read that wrong?

Also, QUOTE *Now the cons. People have died from complications after being tased. Some of you probably read the article in the paper this week where a man in custody at the Gwinnett County Jail died in July after being Tased once or twice after he began fighting deputies. *

If I am not mistaken, the deaths in Gwinnett and one other agency the Deputies tased the suspects WHILE handcuffed and at one time restrained to chairs. That is inappropriate use of the taser. I have been shocked with the taser up to 7 times, some on purpose, others by accident when dealing with suspects. I haven’t died yet.

By Marjorie

August 12, 2007 6:33 PM | Link to this

I’ve been studying so-called Taser-related in-custody deaths, and I’ve noticed that there is a high death rate associated with use of a Taser on a person who is in custody, fettered, or is otherwise forcibly restrained at the time a Taser shock is applied. There isn’t much data available, so quantitative estimates have a large uncertainty, but the death rate for such use of a Taser is around 50%, very roughly. [If officers were to receive Taser training from someone unaffiliated with Taser International Inc., they could learn a lot about how to minimize these deaths.]

By Robb Banks

August 13, 2007 5:11 PM | Link to this

The police get all the fun toys to play with! The latest cool gadget is the Taser XREP shotgun fired projectile.

Imagine a game of lawn darts with one of THESE to aim at your annoying cousins?

The new XREP, which stands for Extended Range Electro-Muscular Projectile, contains a fully functional Taser circuit payload inside the shell housing for a 12-gauge shotgun.

You chamber one of these babies in your shotgun, and you can play ‘zap-the-perp’ from about 100 feet away!

I may be too old for the force, but I might just lie about my age and go through the police academy just so I can get to play with these toys.