Chop Chick

By Chop Chop

May 31, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this

Yeah.

I have nothing further.

By Ron

May 31, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

Seems like it…

We are back in 3rd after that fiasco…

By BirdDawg

May 31, 2006 02:05 PM | Link to this

Colin Cowherd said yesterday what no one in Atlanta sports (and baseball circles) is ever willing to say:

Bobby Cox is a miserable failure in the postseason.

He also says that Tony LaRussa is as well.

He made a wonderful argument about how baseball managers are much like their players: largely uneducated guys (barely have a high school education) who get way too much credit when things go right and none when it goes wrong.

He then asked us to look at the way we judge head football coaches and basketball coaches. Guys who actually have college educations, and have high IQs. Educated guys. These guys, when things go right, barely get any credit (unless they’re Parcells or Belichick), and get fired before they can put something together when things go wrong.

Why do guys like Cox and LaRussa get passes for severely mismanaging great talent? When they lose in the postseason, all of the apologists come out and say, “Well, the players play, it’s their fault.” They call LaRussa a “genius” and Cox a great players manager. Yet, they both keep failing when it matters.

Cowherd correctly pointed out that LaRussa should have won 3 World Series with the talent he had in Oakland. And that Cox has made blunders so huge, it cost the Braves in 91 and 96. But they never get the blame.

Yet a guy like Phil Jackson is called “overrated.” Jackson has 9 titles to his name, but all people ever say is, “Well, if I had Jordan or Kobe and Shaq, I could’ve won 10!”

What these people always and conveniently forget is that before Phil came along, Jordan and Kobe and Shaq had 0 titles. It took Jackson’s hand to turn Jordan into the greatest of all time (GOAT), not the greatest ball hog of all time. It took Jackson to mesh Kobe and Shaq into a unit that worked together long enough to win 3 titles.

And if you ever notice, it’s the same people who say that Phil Jackson who is overrated, but scream bloody murder when someone mentions the fact that Bobby Cox is the single worst postseason failure as a manager in the history of baseball.

So for Phil, it’s not him when he wins, but when he loses he can’t get it done.

And for Cox when he wins, he’s the GOAT, and when he and his teams fail miserably in the playoffs, it’s not him (and some of his absolutely ridiculous blunders), it’s his players. Man look at all of that hypocrisy from Braves fans especially.

You know, in Boston, they fired a manager for a huge playoff blunder, and the next year won the World Series. A wonder if such a change would have been made in 1996, or possibly 1997 or 1998, if the great Braves teams could have won at least one more title. Look at the one constant on the field for the Braves, whose decisions affect this team on an everyday basis. If you think about it logically, you have to see the connection. But so many fans refuse to see that connection, and give Cox a free pass. “He didn’t throw a slider” “He didn’t groove the pitch to Puckett.” “He wasn’t the one who didn’t perform.” That is true. But he was the one who brought in Liebrandt and Wohlers. He was the one who made the line-up and refused to sit struggling players (or in some cases, started players who had no business starting, like Brian Jordan last year). He was the one who left in struggling pitchers in always one pitch or one inning too long. Cox’s decisions have cost the Braves at least two more World Series Titles. And who could say what could have happened in 93, 97, 98, 00, or 02?

The Braves teams of the 90’s had the greatest pitching ever, and yes, decent enough offenses to get it done. But Cox’s unwillingness to change his approach for the playoffs doomed those teams, and still dooms this team. He is unflexable as the day is long, and manages in October like he thinks it’s still May, with a whole 4 months to catch teams.

Bobby Cox should have been shown the door long ago, and as long as he manages this team, they’ll keep winning divisions, and keep losing when it really matters.

And yet, he’ll get none of the blame. He’s got the perfect situation, where the NBA’s greatest coach ever just can’t seem to catch a break sometimes.

How is that fair? How is that not hypocritical?

And I can’t wait to hear all of the “objective” responses from all of the mindless drones I like to call Braves fans.

By Chop Chick

May 31, 2006 02:17 PM | Link to this

Well, to be fair, LaRussa is actually one of the most well-educated guys in the game. I’d argue that perhaps he OVERthinks things, which can also do a team in. The line is fine and I’m really glad I’m not the one having to find the happy medium that works one season to the next. Tough job.

Also, it’s not always about having tons of “talent” on a team. You also need guys who aren’t maybe the most talented MLBers but who are content to be role-players - talented enough (not superstars) but happy to let the heavy-hitters do their thing while they fill smaller, but important roles as base stealers, situational hitters, guys who walk, what have you. I think this is why the White Sox won it all last year. They played like a team should - never letting anyone think “Oh, I’VE got to do it all” but always approaching the game with a “How can WE win?” mentality. Just my take. My World Series record as a manager is 0-for-0.

By BirdDawg

May 31, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this

And yes, I’ve lived in Atlanta for all of my 40-plus years. I’ve loved the Dawgs, Falcons, and Braves since the day I was born. I remember Aaron’s 715. I remember when the Falcons had red helmets and black uniforms. I remember the splendor of Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium when it was called Atlanta Stadium. I remember Tommy Nobis.

And I remember when I too was one of those apologists for Bobby Cox.

But I cannot logically make those arguments anymore. I cannot let love of the Braves influence what is plain as day to see.

The playoffs are not a crapshoot, no matter what anyone says. The most talented teams usually wind up winning. The ChiSox last year and the BoSox the year before were the most talented teams in those years. As were the Angels when they won, all of those Yankee teams (accept in 1996). The Blue Jays of 1992 and 1993. It only seems that when the Braves are playing with the most talented teams in baseball (1991, 1996, 1997) that the playoffs then become a crapshoot.

Every once in awhile, the Marlins, or a team like them will get hot and win it all, but talent usually wins out.

Except when Bobby Cox or Tony LaRussa is your postseason manager. One loses because he won’t change his style when the situation demands it, and the other loses because he believes his own hype and out-thinks his talent.

Anyway, you guys can call me a traitor, and while my blood runs Red & Black, there is enough red left in there for the Braves. I just wish they as an organization weren’t satisfied every year with only getting there. Boston wasn’t. They fired their manager, and won the whole damn thing.

The Braves organization should have had the cajones to do that long ago.

Looking back, I would have done it the minute that the Braves became the greatest chokers in baseball history in losing the 1996 World Series (I know, I know, soon to be replaced 8 years later by the Yankees, but for the those 8 years, because of Cox, we owned that dubious distinction). If the Braves would have fired Cox then and just said “enough is enough!” this team could have won at least one more Series. Possibly in 1997.

By BirdDawg

May 31, 2006 02:33 PM | Link to this

Chop Chick, you are right to a point. I don’t agree with you when you say “not necissarily the most talent.” You’re confusing good team chemistry and less talent. The guys on the ChiSox were the most talented and had great chemistry. They were willing to lay down the bunt. They knew they didn’t have to take the game over. Dye can do that. Their pitching did that.

The Yankees were like that in the years in which they won 3 in a row. Tehy had the most talent and the best chemistry.

Everyone always says how hamonious the Braves clubhouse is, and how much chemistry his team have, yet they keep losing. Why is that? Could it be because the manager doesn’t know how to manage in October? Nah, it couldn’t be.

The ChiSox were the most talented team in baseball last year. Their lineup was dangerous up and down. Their pitching was a beast, both starting and bullpen. It is no surprise that they won.

The Yankees do have talent, but no chemistry. And their talent is also overrated. Their pitching stinks and their MVP (not their real MVP, Jeter), A-Fraud, is much like Cox in his ability to wilt when the heat is on.

Anyway, I see your point, but disagree. You cannot name a more talented team, top to bottom, than the ChiSox were last year.

Like I said, there are always acceptions (the Marlins in 2003 comes to mind). But talent will usually win out in the postseason. That crapshoot argument is just that: crap. It was invented by fans and sportswriters to give LaRussa and Cox free passes for their momumental postseason failures.

By Cosmo

May 31, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this

I agree with BirdDawg. The Braves should have kept Joe Torre…….

By BirdDawg

May 31, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

When did I say that, Cosmo?

I think Torre is a bit overrated, not as much as Cox (he did get it done 4 times), but he’s overrated. Before the Yankees, he was a losing manager. But when he had the Yankee teams before Steibrenner thought money could buy Championships, he won four of them, one against a much better team (against the Braves in 1996). So yes, he’s better than Cox, but he also has an edge in ownership.

I will say this, if Cox coaches the Yankees, he doesn’t win four of those series. He doesn’t beat the Braves in 1996, and he loses another Series that the Torre-led Yankees won, most likely to the Mets.

That is what Cox does. He loses when he shouldn’t. Often.

By Cosmo

May 31, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this

Sorry, I agree with you about Cox. In my opinion they should have kept Torre.

By Mr. Smooth

May 31, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

Cosmo,

please don’t stoop to apologizing BirdDawg AKA Matthew Cafaro, resident AJC Blogging IDIOT.

Hey BirdDawg: Since you have nothing better to do than check these blogs all day and write your silly essays, please tell us which managers aren’t overrated.

What qualifies as NOT overated?

By Chop Chop

May 31, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this

BirdDawg, I don’t even know what to say. Many Braves fans have already skewered Bobby Cox for the same reasons you have. If you think all Braves fans believe Bobby craps gold, you’re sadly mistaken.

However, one of your arguments bothers me a little bit. You call Braves fans “mindless drones”, yet don’t point out that the stadium is generally little more than half full on average. Maybe many of those “mindless drones” have decided that they want a better product? Maybe the Braves are “boring” now because of their postseason failures? Maybe you should think about that.

In other words, you might be preaching to the choir, so don’t call us “mindless drones.”

By BirdDawg

May 31, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this

Chop Chop, you have no idea what you are talking about. I am about the only educated person in Atlanta who actually follows Atlanta sports. The only intelligent sports fans in this town I can find are at my favorite sports bar, Woof’s on Piedmont.

By Matthew

May 31, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this

BirdDawg, I am way smarter than you, I was a marine (until I hurt my knees). I also was a stellar athlete in middle school so I KNOW sports. I never hear you say anything about playing sports so what do you know?

By br

May 31, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this

Bird Dawg,

As the famous Sgt. Hulka once said, “Lighten up Francis!” Seriously, the way you’re going and coming up with your conspiracy theories, you’re going to end up with a coronary!

By ben

May 31, 2006 05:20 PM | Link to this

Should have hired Jim Leyland

By 74 dog

May 31, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this

what are u people smokin’? tell me what AVAILABLE manager u would have hired who would have been better? Leyland? he is 1 and 2 in post season against Cox. Larussa,u were right about him. I don’t believe the Braves have had the best talent overall except maybe ‘95,’96’.certainly not since ‘02. and definitely not ‘91.the pirates and dodgers had more talent in ‘91,and probably a few others too. we played above our talent level in ‘91 and ‘92

By 74 dog

May 31, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this

in ‘91 TP was the only guy hitting above his weight.

By gotigers72

May 31, 2006 06:07 PM | Link to this

I hate to beat a dead horse, but I’m going to anyway. I was at the game last night and saw a good 3-3 game turn into another fiasco due to that miserable mess of a bullpen. Saw where Bobby’s quote on Tyler Yates was, “He was overthrowing”. He was overthrowing alright, right into the middle of the strike zone above the belt.

The answer to your question is, yes the Braves are only going to beat stink teams as long as they keep making poor decisions. This means you JS. This bullpen mess makes it demoralizing for everyone, fans , coaches and players. Time after time after time the bullpen gets clobbered.

Does Phil Stockman have leprososy or something? Has he pi**ed off somebody up high in the Braves organization? Tyler Yates has good stats, but Stockman’s are much better, and he’s 26 years old, not a stinkin’rookie. I know Yates has pitched in the majors before, but his record and ERA were horrible. He has been let go by two other teams. Just because he throws hard doesn’t mean he can get anybody out. Major league hitters can hit fastballs up in the zone like he was throwing last night. Pitiful. You guys in management didn’t help win 14 straight division titles by making poor decisions. Why start now?

By Adam

May 31, 2006 06:27 PM | Link to this

BirdDawg, despite your apparent grasp of the English language, I find it difficult to accept your self-proclaimed intelligence simply because you had the time to lift Colin Cowherd’s argument - almost verbatim - from ESPN Radio and transcribe it into posts on this blog. You make some nice, yet unoriginal points. Well, that is when you are making Cowherd’s points.

By Ron Roberts

May 31, 2006 06:35 PM | Link to this

Hmmm… Birddog posts at 4:12, and Cafaro at 4:16….

…and how is Lonnie Smith’s baserunning in ‘91 Bobby Cox’s fault?

The only World Series I feel we were heavily loaded to win, frankly, in all these years, was 1993 and 1996, and we didn’t win either. I can’t hold a manager responsible for lousy starting pitching in the ‘93 NLCS, but what a meltdown by EVERYBODY in 1996, ya know?

By eric the elder

May 31, 2006 06:55 PM | Link to this

Chop Chick, BirdDawg has hijacked your blog. Do us all a favor and shut it down.

By Chop Chick

May 31, 2006 07:53 PM | Link to this

Cut it out now, Matthew/BirdDawg, or you WILL be banned. I have the proof that you are in fact posting under both names, as the other commenters have suggested, and I’ve already forwarded that information to the AJC’s IT people. You’re busted. So limit your comments to baseball, lay off the personal attacks, stop wasting space by “replying” to yourself and choose ONE name for posting. Can’t follow these simple rules? Then beat it.

As for the rest of you: IGNORE any comments by Matthew/BirdDawg. Do NOT respond. Please do NOT feed the trolls. Thank you.

We now return to the Chop Chick blog, already in progress…

By Jason

May 31, 2006 08:50 PM | Link to this

Anybody care for some big fat bean burritos?

By BirdDawg

May 31, 2006 11:59 PM | Link to this

Chop Chick…

I didn’t post any posts after 2:57 PM.

So, you will be banning someone else who’s decided to take my name and attatch it to someone else’s.

Either way, you’ll be getting rid of an annoyance.

And believe me, you can check my IP right now on this post, I’ve not posted a single post until right now since my last post at 2:57 pm.

And Chop Chick, since you seem to be a sensible kind of a person, you can call me Bill. Which is my name.

By Chop Chick

June 1, 2006 08:25 AM | Link to this

We’ll take care of the real problem, BirdDawg. It’s all in the IP.

By Michael Smith

June 1, 2006 08:31 AM | Link to this

I, too, am discouraged by the bullpen. But much of the problem can be traced to the ridiculous discrepencies in the payrolls of the Braves versus teams like the Yankees, the Mets and the Dodgers. Those teams have virually unlimited funds — their payrolls are 2 or 3 times that of the Braves.

The Dodgers, for instance, have the funds to pay for TWO closers in Baez and Gagne, whereas the Braves cannot even afford to out-bid the Yankees for the services of an unproven but promising talent like Kyle Farnsworth. Big spenders like the Mets and the Yankees routinely hire the best players at every position as soon as they reach free agent status. The Braves cannot afford to retain the good players we do get — players like Glavine, Maddox, Furcal, etc., — are grabbed by the big-spenders year after year.

As a result, JS is forced to try to find talent on the cheap. Hence, we wind up with a Dan Kolb, who did well for Milwaukee — and who predicted his collapse in Atlanta? No one. — as opposed to acquiring someone with a longer track record. Do you know why there are so many young players on this team? Because they are cheap; we cannot afford anything else.

And in recent years, when we do acquire a talented veteran — for instance, players like Mike Hampton and Edgar Renteria — we are only able to do so because Schuerholz negotiates a fantastic deal where the other team picks up a large portion of the salary.

So keep that in mind when you pass judgement on John Schuerholz and Bobby Cox — their options are severely limited these days. Having talent — having the money to pay for talent — does not guarantee that a team will win. But NOT having money guarantees a bullpen that includes Oscar Villarreal, Lance Cormier, Chris Reitsma, Chad Paronto, Pete Moylan, Mike Remlinger and Ken Ray — all of which have potential but are there primarily because they come cheap. And we have to live with the consequences.

By eric the elder

June 1, 2006 09:36 AM | Link to this

Excellent points, Michael. You might have added that the Astros apparently had no trouble coming up with over $12 million to pay Clemens for a half season.

By dylan

June 1, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

I wanted to point something out about Grady Little being fired in Boston for what people call a mistake and some people argue was the right move none of that is really true what really happened was the general manager of the Red Sox Theo Epstein had hired a guy by the name of Bill James to do statistical analysis for the team in this analysis James came up with numbers for Pedro that showed he wasnt near as effective after he hit the 100 pitch mark James reported this to Epstein and he then went to Grady Little and told him no matter what Pedro comes out after 100 pitches. Grady went to the mound in that game at 100 pitches and left Pedro in the game defying an order given to him by his boss. It is for this reason he was fired if he pulls Pedro and they still lose then Epstein takes the blame and keeps Little on but he defied his boss and no job I have ever had or even heard of allows you to do that.

By BirdDawg

June 1, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this

Interesting, Dylan, I’d never heard that.

But see the difference? It is still a form of accountability. No one ever seems to want to hold Bobby Cox accountable for some serious postseason blunders. It’s never his fault. The playoffs are a crapshoot. It’s the players. Cox is great, Cox is good, let us thank him for our food, Amen.

It’s ridiculous.

As for Baez, the Braves could have had him two years ago, and then last year. Don’t know whether to blame that on the diminishing skills of John Schuerholtz, who hasn’t really swung a great deal in a while (Hudson was a good, not great deal), or the tight-wad pockets of our wonderful corporate ownership.

This team is so frustrating. It’s almost as bad as having Michael Adams as President of UGA (which ranks as the single worst happenstance in Georgia sports ever).

By br

June 1, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this

BirdDawg,

If they’re so frustrating then why do you watch them? I mean, come on, it’s all in the past, let it go. You can woulda, shoulda, coulda ‘til you’re blue in the face but what possible good would it do? We all know the past, why rehash it? Also, someone else wondered how it was Bobby Cox’s fault for Lonnie Smith’s baserunning blunder in the ‘91 Series. Good point…let’s hear your conspiracy theory on THAT one!

By BirdDawg

June 1, 2006 01:29 PM | Link to this

Br, you’re trying to minimalize what I’m saying by calling it “consperacy theories.”

It’s just simple logic that you aplogists refuse to see. You want to give Cox a free pass and invent excuses to cover for his blunders in managerial decisions in the postseason? Fine, be my guest.

But if you read my original posts, I never mention Lonnie Smith. The Blue Jays were a better team than the Braves in 1992. But the Braves should have won for sure in 1991 and 1996. And in those years, the managerial blunders of Bobby Cox cost them the World Series.

Also, leaving in Maddux too long (which is a recurring theme for Cox in the postseason) in 1999 cost the Braves game 1 and any hope of momentum.

So go ahead, put words in my mouth to try and discredit me. Be a Michael Moore or an Ann Coulter.

I’m just trying to come with a little logic and truth here, and you guys want to twist what I say advance your agenda of Cox apologizing.

By BirdDawg

June 1, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this

Okay, I’m an idiot.

Lonnie Smith was in 1991.

That stuff was 15 years ago. Being old, I sometimes forget things.

But that didn’t lose them the Series. I maintain that bringing in Leibrandt did, more than anything else. Cox mismanaged the bullpen that whole series (yet another string that runs through the Braves October disapointments).

Don’t be hard on this old man. I’m just trying to introduce some new ideas. Cox isn’t the God everyone in this town seems to think, and it is wrong that he gets a free pass for October. It’s just wrong.

By Joe Roman

June 1, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this

I think the pathology is pretty clear as far as these “I know better” postings by BirdDawg and others. Their obvious bitterness and envy is much like that of a fourth grader who doesn’t get picked to be on a team in a schoolyard game. Can there be any doubt that in his fantasy life BirdDawg dreams of the Braves firing Bobby Cox and hiring him? ……and where does he think people in baseball go to be “educated”, dear ol’ Baseball U.?

By Joe Roman

June 1, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this

Excellent Excellent post, Michael Smith. Don’t you find it a bit nauseating that Houston rewards Roger Clements’ monumental ego by signing him when he’s good and ready to pitch for obscene money? It might be cheaper for Drayton McClain to simply slip all the opposing players a few grand a piece in the games Clements would have pitched to just close their eyes occasionally when they swing the bat? No doubt about it, Michael. When it comes wins per dollar, the Cox/Scheurholz team takes the title hands down. Billy Beane’s “Money Ball” is just a pretentious hand job in comparison.

By Hunk Erdown

June 1, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure what the answer is, but I too have been an Atl fan (through thick and thin) and Ga resident all my life. There has certainly been a double standard for judging Bobby Cox. Sid Bream slides to clinch the pennant, Bobby’s a genius. Lonnie screws up, not Bobby’s fault. You can’t have it both ways. If its not Bobby’s fault when the players don’t get the job done, then he can’t get the credit when they do well. And yet, thats exactly the way it has been for all these years. Yes Ben, Jim Leyland would have been an awesome choice given the talent that Bobby has had to work with in contrast with what Leyland has accomplished with inferior talent. All that being said, I lived through all the terrible seasons before 1991, and it is nice to at least be in the hunt every year. I keep hoping that Bobby will learn from the past, but man… it seems like replay button on the tivo every year.

By dylan

June 1, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

I can agree that a manager gets praised when he succeeds but to say he doesnt get punished when he fails is silly In order to understand this I first must explain something that most general managers and managers in baseball agree with keep in mind I am not saying its correct just saying it what schuerholz and many other GMs believe and that is the playoffs are less about skill and more about luck especially when compared to 162 game regular season.We all know and can agree single plays are much more important in the playoffs then in the regular season where losing one game does not make or break the season. I feel bad for managers in the playoffs they are damned if they do and damned if they dont say Cox doesnt bring in leibrandt in 91 would that have changed that at bat completely or was it maybe destined to be kirby pucketts moment its impossible to predict the outcome of any other situation other then the one he took if it works out and leibrnadt gets puckett to ground out then do we all declare Bobby a genius or is he still criticized for the choice? Fans love to speculate that is part of what makes this game great but we should all remember one simple thing it is just a game in the end win or lose at the end of the season you will move on to football or to family or whatever takes up your time in the offseason all to come back and ride the wave of highs and lows the next season the true fans of this sport the ones that live or die with the games final box score we will never leave this game behind no matter how annoyed or frustrated we may get its an addiction and the cheapest one I know of it costs you nothing more then a radio or a tv thats why baseball is still here because the story each season tells and the feeling you get when Frenchy hits a Grand Slam to win the game these things cannot be replaced. Keep the hope alive inside your heart because its that hope that makes moments like the 04 Red Sox so incredible.

By go braves

June 1, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

I think Bobby is one of the best coaches out there, and the lack of talent in the bullpen may have lead him to leave his starters in too long during the postseason. Heck, after the Mark Wohlers fiasco in ‘96 (where, if he doesn’t get cute and throw Leyritz [apologies for the misspelling of his name] a curveball with 2 strikes instead of his heater, the Braves go up 3-0 and likely sweep the Yanks, perhaps leading to a few more championships? Or, at the least, giving us a legitimate closer for the next few years and not leaving Bobby with no option but to leave his starters in until they wilt over).

But, to the original question posed by Chop Chick: That has been the formula for the Braves success for years - in fact, the formula for success for any winning athletics institution: beat up on the teams you are supposed to beat up on, and play .500 (or slightly better to be dominant) against teams with equal or better talent. That’s how players on the Braves always end up with numbers that seem skewed. A player like Giles, and formerly Furcal especially,(the list could go on and on if you want to go back through the last 15 years) knocks the cover off the ball against inferior pitching, but come playoff time, he can’t touch the ball. But, baseball is now and always has been a pitchers game, and thus, the success of every team is ultimately dependent on their starting 5, of which the Braves have one of the soundest starting 5s around and will use that to once again, make the playoffs. Once they get there, it’s a crapshoot, all dependent on who gets hot for which team and when.

I still like our chances each and every postseason, and don’t recall us getting dominated in any of the series losses in many series. A few bounces one way or the other, and the Braves are in the NLCS last year, at the least. If nothing else, they give us a helluva run each year, and I love each and every minute of it!

By Chop Chop

June 1, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this

dylan,

This is from a Peter Gammons article from October 19, 2003:

“Before the game, Little acknowledged that Pedro was pitching on fumes. He had to know that from pitches 85 to 100 the league hit .230 off Martinez, but from 101 to 120 the number was .370. In essence, after 100 pitches Pedro turned into Alan Benes. Pedro completed one game all year, and what Little did all season was to get him out by the seventh.

OK, Grady went against what he’d done and planned to do and let Pedro start the inning … but after getting Nick Johnson, when he got Derek Jeter 0-2 and missed with the next pitch by two feet … rope double — that was clearly the end. And forget the pre-Matsui trip; anyone who knows Pedro Martinez knows he would never say he couldn’t get someone out.”

I lived in Massachusetts at the time and flipped on the radio for the postgame radio show. It went on all night…literally. People were calling in at 3 a.m. complaining about Pedro being left in the game. It was insane. I felt like I was back in ‘91 or ‘96. Scary stuff.

I suppose that the real question is this: Would the backlash have been any different if Pedro had been taken out? Probably not (there’s the hypocrisy of fans), but Grady Little wouldn’t have gone against what he had been doing all season. Red Sox fans might (and I stress, MIGHT) have been a little forgiving (no pun intended) if Grady had managed it the way the organization wanted it to be managed. Ultimately, that was what got Little fired. The media and fan reaction was just icing on the cake.

By dylan

June 1, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

I agree 100 percent Chop Chop that is exactly what I was saying right there.

By Hunk Erdown

June 1, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this

For the Bobby bashers, the best thing that could happen is for the Braves to lose a tight playoff race by a game or two and not make it to post season play. Then they can say, with at least some legitamacy, that Bobby’s decision to stick with Reistma so much early in the season blew our chances. Of course, the other side will say, he had no other option, Owners wouldn’t pay for a closer. If the Braves make the playoffs, the Bobby supporters will say, all is right with the world, we made it. Then he puts in Reistma to close game seven and we lose… Not Bobby’s fault, Chipper struck out three times. Andrew hit into a double play with the bases loaded. No matter which side you fall on on the issue of manager, there is a legitimate argument. To act like everyone else is a moron because they don’t agree with you just shows who the real moron is.

The decision to stick with Reitsma so much is just this year’s most glaring example, there are others. There have been similar, arguable examples almost every year. And yet, the man has a remarkable record of making it through those things and getting to the post season every freakin year. Is it because of overwhelming talent? I used to think maybe, til last year, when a bunch of rookies filled in the gaps. I just don’t know…. he makes some really bonehead decisions, but we are always there at the end. All in all I think he deserves the right to finish his carreer here, even if we never do better than a division pennant, but I still wonder what if someone that the players didn’t love so much… someone that put some fire into the team, would have been able to accomplish. You can say everyone that doesn’t fully support Bobby is an idiot if you want to, but there are still about 20,000 empty seats most games, would a change fill those seats?

By Tom

June 1, 2006 05:14 PM | Link to this

I have the ultimate answer for the Braves. Let’s hire “BirdDawg” as manager. Then we’ll win every World Series until he retires!

By Chop Chop

June 1, 2006 07:12 PM | Link to this

I vote for Colin Cowherd as the next Braves manager. After he becomes the first major league manager to be publicly crucified by an angry and bloodthirsty populace, maybe Bobby will come back.

By BirdDawg

June 2, 2006 12:32 AM | Link to this

Tom, I last played organized ball in 1978.

But thanks for the vote of confidence!

By Drummerdad

June 2, 2006 02:16 AM | Link to this

Boy BirdDawg you’ve stirred quite a mix of emotions and responses in this round.

The ‘91 Series was a gut wrencher. Lonnie losing the ball against the white tarp ceiling of the Gimmick Dome and then getting faked out at 2nd when he should have run, Kent Hrbek physically pulling Ron Gant off base, and then Smoltzie going head to head with Jack Morris. But consider this: I would take Bobby’s handling of a pitching staff over that of Joe Torre who was a catcher. When he took over from Bobby in 1982(?) he consistenly left pitchers in too long. And that crowd got hammered. We think Leo was huge in Atlanta? Mel Stottlemire is even bigger to the Joe and the Yankees now. Just much quieter. Bobby wants to manage in a playoff game by the book. His opponents have made moves that counter his decisions many times. think of it this way: Tommy Lasorda is one Kirk Gibson home run better than Bobby in World Series play.

The abuse Reitsma is taking needs to stop. Screaming profanities and ugliness while he’s out with his little girls is way over the line. I’ve said all of this to say that I remember how bad it was prior to 1991 and I’m grateful for the lift it’s been to know for a stretch of time that my favorite has been one of the best in the game. They’ve made me proud.

By Carroll

June 2, 2006 07:15 AM | Link to this

Chop Chick: you’re right that we can only beat the sorry teams….and we can barely pull those games out! I long for the days where we handled all the good teams bu tjust couldn’t get up for the lesser teams like the Marlins, Expos, Pirates, etc.

By go braves

June 2, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this

Do any of you REALLY think any team is gonna let go a closer who is even halfway decent? Good closers are really really tough to find these days, and once a team does, they will be very unlikely to trade them. I know we have bundles of talent in the minors for a trade (especially at short and catcher), but seriously, NO ONE is going to give up a closer who is more than mediocore, even if the trade was very one-sided. Keep plugging in this Ray character and hope for the best is about all we can do at this point.

Perhaps we can get the Yankees to trade Riveria to us; I don’t think the Angels are giving up K-Rod anytime soon.

By Del

June 2, 2006 06:42 PM | Link to this

Chop Chick: I think the answer to your question is self-evident. What’s even worse is that I see no help or improvement on the horizon. The only positive thing on the horizon is the return of McCann, and even then I wouldn’t put it past Bobby to bring him back in the 7/8 hole. One of the early indicators that Braves mgmt has shifted their attention to 07, will be when they start to play Betemit at 1B.

By p

June 4, 2006 08:39 AM | Link to this

i give up. if cox can’t win the WS with some of the best teams in baseball, what makes you think he can win with this bunch.

last few years, its been the case of the rest of the NL east putting out horrible teams, than great coaching in atlanta.

By Vonshawn

June 4, 2006 09:19 AM | Link to this

Going back to the original questions posed by Chop Chick, “Can the Braves only win against stink teams?” The answer is without question - YES. Arizona is beating us like we beat up on the Marlins and Cubs.
I’ve been a Braves fan for a long time and I will continue to be long after the run is over, but I am also a fan of baseball, good, fundamentally sound, baseball. And these Braves with all their strikeouts; swinging at the first pitch when the guy in front has just walked and you’re down by four; giving up four run leads in the 9th; failing to score with a runner on 3rd and less than two outs; and the list goes on and on is just difficult to watch.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the run ends here, and though I’m saddened by it, hopefully with the new ownership also brings about change in this organization. A new manager (Terry Pendleton is my choice) and a new philosophy. Play to win or go play someone else.

By nathan

June 4, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this

bird dawg…….I can’t agree with anybody any more than I agree with you. I’ve said for years (about 7 to be exact) that Bobby left Maddux in Game 1 of 1999 series too long. I believe the Braves were up 1-0.

It doesn’t ever end. He’s doing it today with Sosa. 4-0 lead and he leaves him in to bunt in the bottom of the 5th. With Todd Pratt on base none the less! Thank God Renteria hustled on his poor excuse of batting with runners on 1st and 3rd with less than 2 outs. If he doesn’t (and Giles doesn’t take out the guy at 2nd), it’s an easy and predictable inning ending double play. For cryin’ out loud, pinch hit for Sosa and try to get a rally going, haven’t we seen enough, that this team cannot “manufacture” runs.

I said it about a week ago, and I’ll say it again. This would pain me to watch, because it’s not baseball the “way it was meant to be played”. But JS needs to go out and put together a mid 90’s style Rockies team together way before the deadline. Bobby likes the “mashers” anyhow, and this bullpen can’t hold a lead either. Cox’s style of “managing” has always been: Pitching, Defense and the 3-Run Homer. Well this team needs to play for three 3=Run Homers, so the bullpen has a chance. There has to be a bunch of Hack-n-Jackers available for little or nothing in return that would fit Bobby’s style (Burnitz, Sexon, Branyon, heck go get Juan Gonzalez….I don’t care!)

Like I said, that kind of ball would make me sick in the stomach to watch, but if they would actually win a couple of games here and there, it’d be easier to handle!

PS….don’t take this post as my endorsement for a player like Jeremy Burnitz, I think he is a joke. But I bet Bobby would LOVE him. Hard, Free swinger…..just his style!

By Coxisoverrated

June 4, 2006 07:19 PM | Link to this

Cox cost the Braves when he left Ramarez in too long Thursday night. He was obviously out of gas at the end of the seventh inning but Cox leaves him in to pitch the eighth and the bottom collapses. Then to add insult to injury he calls on gunslinger Remlinger who cost the game with two outs.

By Coxisoverrated

June 4, 2006 07:30 PM | Link to this

“Cox is stupid”

“without Cox the Braves would have two more WS”

” Righty vs Lefty”

” the braves win in spite of Cox”

These are not my statements but from knowledgeable braves fans throughout the years. I do endorse them. Cox manages by the book, righty vs lefty… I call him RL Cox.

By Robert

June 5, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this

Amen BirdDawg. A-MEN!!!! Cox is arguably the biggest donkey to ever wear a manager’s uniform, in any sport.

By br

June 5, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

And BirdDawg is arguably the biggest donkey to ever respond in this blog, in any sport.

By Robert

June 5, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

I dont know the guy from Adam, but scrolling thru this blog, I’d challenge you to find one thing he said that isnt true