AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2009 > January > 09 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.UST. Hanson on way, but is D. Lowe?
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
On the day after the John Smoltz terminus in Terminus (that was the original name of Atlanta), as Smoltz stories were splashed all over the newspaper waiting at the end of my driveway, it was interesting to see the cover of the Baseball America issue waiting in my mailbox.
The cover boy is none other than Tommy Hanson, possibly the most talented pitching prospect to come through the Braves system since … well, a long time.
Hanson is the top-rated Braves prospect by BA, which has its top 10 prospects list for every National League East team in this new issue. The cover reads, “Righthander Tommy Hanson dominates on his way to Atlanta and ascends to the top of the Braves’ prospect list.”
Most of you have already seen the list, but for those who haven’t: 1. Hanson, 2. OF Jason Heyward, 3. OF Jordan Schafer, 4. OF Gorkys Hernandez, 5. 1B Freddie Freeman, 6. LHP Cole Rohrbough, 7. LHP Jeff Locke, 8. RHP Julio Teheran, 9. RHP Kris Medlen, 10. RHP Craig Kimbrel.
I wouldn’t disagree with that list, from what I’ve seen with my own eyes and heard from scouts and team officials, though I do think Hanson and Heyward are probably interchangeable in the top two spots, and Schafer and Hernandez could probably go in either order in the next two.
Which brings us to this year’s starting rotation, which I think will include Hanson at some point, probably sooner than later (i.e., I think he’ll be up by early summer).
But that’s not what most of you want to know right now. Right now, you want to know who’s going to hold down the No. 1 spot, since an opening-day assignment for Javier Vazquez does not exactly get the pulses jumping across Braves Nation. Not that he’s bad, he’s just not a No. 1, not your classic opening-day starter.
Derek Lowe, he’d be a signigicant upgrade in that role, and provide the Braves a 200-inning veteran who could be penciled in for 15 or more wins. Check out what the sinkerballer did last year in L.A., with that slipshod infield defense _ 14-11 with a 3.24 ERA in 211 innings, including 6-1 with a 1.27 ERA in his last 10 starts.
The Braves’ infield defense should rank among the NL’s top third, at least, with SS Yunel Escobar and Gold Glove-caliber 1B Casey Kotchman. Chipper’s still a solid defensive player, and baseball people will tell you Kelly Johnson isn’t the liability some here make him out to be.
Now, whether the Braves could provide enough run support to boost Lowe’s win totals, that’s another story.
But anyway, Lowe and his agent, Scott Boras, visited for about five hours - yes, five - yesterday with Braves officials at Turner Field, a wide-ranging group that included GM Frank Wren, manager Bobby Cox, pitching coach Roger McDowell and CEO Terry McGuirk. Lowe was accompanied by Boras and one of the powerful agent’s top assistants.
From all accounts, everyone came out of the marathon session feeling good about the potential match of Lowe and the Braves, though until the Braves made their offer, which was expected today, it probably won’t be clear just how good a chance they have of landing the best available unsigned free agent.
The Braves pulled out the stops, from what I hear, preparing a video presentation for Lowe and Atlanta-would-love-to-have-you messages from several country music stars (he’s a big country fan) including Alan Jackson.
McDowell talked to him at length, as did Cox, who’s known Lowe since they were on a touring all-star team that went to Japan eight years ago. The Braves emphasized their strengths, including the pitching depth in their minor league organization, and also noted their weaknesses and how Lowe could help shore up a big one.
It’s almost certainly going to take a four-year deal, perhaps with a vesting fifth-year option, for the Braves to get the 35-year-old Lowe, who is also being pursued by the Mets and Phillies, with at least a couple of other teams expected to make bids.
The Mets already had floated a three-year, $36 mill offer for the right-hander, but Boras last week indicated that offer was never formally presented and that GM Omar Minaya knew it wouldn’t be enough for Lowe.
The Braves were expected to make an offer today, but they’re in lockdown mode right now regarding comments about potential targets, after so many pursuits this winter already blew up in their faces. They want Lowe, and badly. The Braves know they probably need him and another, lesser piece or two added to their current roster to have any shot of competing for a playoff spot out of a tough division.
Would four years at $15 mill per year get it done? Not sure. But it just might, considering no other offers have surfaced for Lowe. But if the Braves wait around for long and allow, say, the Chicago Cubs to get involved after their ownership situation is resolved, then the price could certainly rise.
You might have heard, Boras is pretty good and drumming up higher bids than anyone thought possible for his clients, but I’ve got to think that even he’d be hard-pressed to get much more than the above figures for Lowe in this economy.
Lowe’s a Fort Myers, Fla., resident, primarily because that’s where his ex-wife lives with their kids. He’s recently remarried, to a former Los Angeles television-news personality, and whether or not she’d be big on Atlanta, or whether that’s a big factor, is unclear. The glamour of New York and all that, you know.
Since he’s a Boras client, this could drag out. Then again, it’s already the second week of January, and even a Boras client has got to start getting a little itchy at this point, wanting to know where he’s going to be moving in a few months and where he’ll be going to spring training next month.
Ironically, ot coincidentally, or whatever, Lowe and Smoltz are two of only three pitchers in history to have a 20-win season and a 40-save season (Dennis Eckersley’s the other), and Smoltz’s signing with Boston might have improrved the chances that Lowe ends up in Atlanta.
Because not only are the Red Sox seemingly less likely to get in the Lowe bidding now, but the Braves are also probably a little more desperate than they were a couple of days ago, when they’d already scheduled the Lowe visit and had no idea it would come on the day that Smoltz’s momentous decision would be the talk of Atlanta.
Stay tuned. The Lowe matter could be interesting in the coming days.
Kawakami update: Heard today (Saturday) from someone who would know that the Braves have reached an agreement with the the 33-year-old former winner of the Japanese equivelent of the Cy Young Award, and it looks like a deal could be announced in the next few days provided he passes a physical Monday.
Other teams that were considered to be among four finalists for Kenshin Kawakami are now saying they’ve been led to believe he’s going to the Braves. And to think, less than two weeks ago Japanese papers were reporting that Kawakami had narrowed his list to three finalists and that the Braves weren’t one of them.
Kawakami, a wily right-hander, is projected as a solid middle-rotation starter in the majors at this stage of his career.
He isn’t likely to be an innings-eater at this stage of his career. Although Kawakami pitched a career-high 215 innings in 2006, he totaled 167-1/3 innings in 2007 and only 117-1/3 in 2008, when he missed time with a back strain and reportedly had shoulder soreness.
He was part of a six-man this past season in Japan, pitching basically once a week. (Conditioning for pitchers in Japan hasn’t been considered as crucial as it is in the States. Japanese teams sometimes use six-man rotations, and most Japanese pitchers make fewer than 30 starts.)
Can he help the Braves? Unquestionably. If they could land Lowe or trade for something at least close to a top-of-the-rotation starter, the addition of Kawakami to a rotation that already includes Jair Jurrejens and Javier Vazquez, with several others competing for a fifth spot and Tommy Hanson waiting in the wings … well, things could get a lot more optimistic in a hurry.
But until they also land a Lowe or someone else of a top-half-of-rotation quality, the Braves still have a major question mark in that rotation, not to mention the glaring need for another outfield bat.
No updates on that — I mentioned the lockdown mode at Braves offices — but they’re still exploring and talking about free agents and trade targets, including bigger names that suddenly seem more affordable, such as Adam Dunn.
They like Xavier Nady, and the Yankees want to trade Nady instead of Nick Swisher, but Boras represents Nady and teams know that means he’ll go to free agency at the end of the 2009 season when his contract’s up. Can’t see the Braves, or any team, giving up significant talent to get Nady in a one-year rental, but if than Yankees would take less than expected in return, it’s possible.
The Yankees’ Nick Swisher isn’t as good as Nady but might be more attractive to many teams (not necessarily the Braves) because he’d be under a team’s control for three or four more years. But that’s the same reason the Yankees seem less likely to trade him.
Wren speaks: In case you guys missed it last night, I posted some comments from Wren on the Smoltz matter after the GM called me back at about 8 p.m.
This is what he said:
“We appreciate all John’s done for us over the years. We’ve been very consistent since the end of the season — I stated that our mission, our goal, was to rebuid our pitching staff, and once we had a good understanding and knowledge of how far the rehab had gone with John and Tommy, we would make them an offer. We followed up with that and made an offer prior to Christmas to John.”
On the Braves offering less guaranteed money than Red Sox:
“I just think there’s still a lot of information we don’t have, from standpoint that John himself will tell you he’snot going to be able to pitch until June. That’s still five or six months of rehab. We just don’t know if he’ll be able to pitch again. We hoped he could. Our offer was indicative of that, that unknown.”
“We’ve always had the same feeling — if John could pitch, we wanted him back. And I think our offer was such, if John could pitch … it was a similar incentive-based offer that if he could pitch he would make a similar amount. Probably the biggest difference was if he can’t pitch, he would make more in Boston. If he can pitch he’d make the same in both places. And a lot of that is based on when he can pitch and how much of the season is lost.”
On whether the Red Sox could afford to guarantee more, etc:
“Yes, but it was never that we didn’t want John back or a lack of respect for John. Our priority was to have a pitching staff that would allow us to go into the season not concerned about rehabs and injuries and the things that set us back in 2008. And that still stands.”
On how tough this kind of thing is for a GM:
“No question. Anybody that sits in this chair will tell you the most difficult decision you make are with aging stars, plain and simple. Because you respect them, you want them to be a part of your organization forever. But the reality is, they’re getting older and they’re not the same.”
”BIG IRON” by Marty Robbins
To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day
Hardly spoke to folks around him didn’t have too much to say
No one dared to ask his business no one dared to make a slip
for the stranger there among them had a big iron on his hip
Big iron on his hip
It was early in the morning when he rode into the town
He came riding from the south side slowly lookin’ all around
He’s an outlaw loose and running came the whisper from each lip
And he’s here to do some business with the big iron on his hip
big iron on his hip
In this town there lived an outlaw by the name of Texas Red
Many men had tried to take him and that many men were dead
He was vicious and a killer though a youth of twenty four
And the notches on his pistol numbered one an nineteen more
One and nineteen more
Now the stranger started talking made it plain to folks around
Was an Arizona ranger wouldn’t be too long in town
He came here to take an outlaw back alive or maybe dead
And he said it didn’t matter he was after Texas Red
After Texas Red
Wasn’t long before the story was relayed to Texas Red
But the outlaw didn’t worry men that tried before were dead
Twenty men had tried to take him twenty men had made a slip
Twenty one would be the ranger with the big iron on his hip
Big iron on his hip
The morning passed so quickly it was time for them to meet
It was twenty past eleven when they walked out in the street
Folks were watching from the windows every-body held their breath
They knew this handsome ranger was about to meet his death
About to meet his death
There was forty feet between them when they stopped to make their play
And the swiftness of the ranger is still talked about today
Texas Red had not cleared leather fore a bullet fairly ripped
And the ranger’s aim was deadly with the big iron on his hip
Big iron on his hip
It was over in a moment and the folks had gathered round
There before them lay the body of the outlaw on the ground
Oh he might have went on living but he made one fatal slip
When he tried to match the ranger with the big iron on his hip
Big iron on his hip
Comments
By Billy Pilgrim (Good luck Smoltzy & GO BRAVES!)
January 9, 2009 4:23 PM | Link to this
5 hours? Wow. That makes me optimistic. If we come out of this offseason with Lowe, Vazquez, Kawakami & Dunn then it will be a tremendous success in my book…for whatever that’s worth! Thanks for the new blog and hard work DOB!
By AGTfan
January 9, 2009 4:25 PM | Link to this
I’m sure that when the Braves make an offer for Lowe, they’ll try and low-ball him. Or do they only save that practice for the starts they already have.
I’ve got to say, I’m seriously considering giving up on the Braves. For me that would mean giving up on MLB altogether.
Wren said all the cliches that he was supposed to say, but I think treating their aging stars shabbily is SOP for the Braves.
By Billy Pilgrim (Good luck Smoltzy & GO BRAVES!)
January 9, 2009 4:27 PM | Link to this
Kawakami signing close?
By Hoosier Aaron
January 9, 2009 4:28 PM | Link to this
I remember a few years ago - Baseball America featured another Braves Top Pitching Prospect on the cover.
It labeled him “The Kid with the Golden Arm”.
Hopefully, Mr. Hanson has Steve Avery ability without the injury problem.
I met Steve Avery in Louisville, Ky while he was playing for the Richmond Braves against the Louisville Redbirds - very nice kid (at that time he was a kid).
I then drove to Cincinnati to see Steve’s Major League debut against the Reds.
Might as well give Tommy the ball on Opening Day.
By Curt in france
January 9, 2009 4:30 PM | Link to this
Again, fine article, Mr O’Brian.
I love Smoltz; yet Wren’s comments seem reasonable to me. I saw Thomas Dimitroff’s press conference the other day, in which he said similar things: assessment of performance, plans…
Of course what is difficult with the Smoltz situation is all the intangibles he brings to the team - a passionate player, leader, big-game pitcher, commitment to Atlanta…
What a career he’s had.
By Married Braves Fans
January 9, 2009 4:31 PM | Link to this
The BRAVES now have a full-blown public relations disaster on their hands and have moved into full ‘Damage Control’ mode.
My wife just told me that out BRAVES Season Ticket Representative just called us for only the 2nd time the 4 years we’ve had Season Tickets to thank us for renewing our tickets, to let us know how much they “appreciate” our continued support and to kiss up to us and let us know to call upon them should “ever need ANYTHING” from them.
My wife said that she laughed and chuckled throughout the whole conversation.
(*By the way, we renewed our tickets before Thanksgiving and are just now hearing from them. They never called to “thank” us before.
Gee, I wonder why they are only doing it N O W all of a sudden and not in years past.
I can’t figure out why*…. ) [ SARCASM ]
By J.L.
January 9, 2009 4:31 PM | Link to this
Hello!
By MattyRoss
January 9, 2009 4:32 PM | Link to this
Lowe, Jurrjens, Vazquez, Kawakami, Morton/Glavine with Hanson waiting in the wings would give us a solid, if unspectacular, rotation. I guess that just makes me wonder if any of the other top pitching prospects would suddenly become more readily available for a trading partner with an OF bat, given the fact that the majority of that rotation would have (relatively) long term contracts.
It did take me a while to remember that I wasn’t counting on Smoltz to be a contributor, so it’s not much of a blow in that sense, as some others stated, but if the Braves don’t sign Lowe AND Kawakami, I really don’t see another way they could go to make 2009 a competitive year. I’m assuming the Cubs eventually get Peavy, taking them out of the Lowe bidding, but I’m worried about the Phillies. They need him, too.
By RC
January 9, 2009 4:33 PM | Link to this
I agree with Billy Pilgrim’s comment except for the addition of Dunn. What people don’t seem to realize about Dunn is that he’s essentially what Andruw was 3 years ago, with MUCH, MUCH WORSE defense. The terrible defense and the K’s just don’t make him a good fit for this team, IMO.
By Doc Holiday
January 9, 2009 4:33 PM | Link to this
Billy
Problem is we are sooooooo far and soooooo near from that accomplishment at the same time.
By chopper2chipper
January 9, 2009 4:33 PM | Link to this
Great blog as usual, DOB. Right now I’m not sure how to feel with respect to Lowe coming here, though that may be a good thing because my good feelings (i.e., Peavy, etc.) hardly came true.
People up here (in Boston) are happy to have Smoltz and can’t believe how “cheap” they got him for. It could be weird when I go to Fenway this year to see the ATL series to see what could be a Lowe v. Smoltz duel.
By GT
January 9, 2009 4:34 PM | Link to this
This franchise is a long way from competing for a postseason spot this year. If they want to compete in the next 2-3 years, the one thing the Braves don’t need right now is to tie up a lot of money on Derek Lowe, who will be 37-38 years old by the time the current batch of prospects could potentially start to produce.
If all the Braves are looking for is a stopgap for the next 2-3 years, why are they so turned off to Ben Sheets? He has a heck of a lot more upside than Derek Lowe, and there’s nowhere near as large a committment required.
By #1 Smoltz Fan
January 9, 2009 4:34 PM | Link to this
Let me be the first to say that the sting is still there. And for some reason I am stil feeling numb, even after a great story by DOB….and some honestly encouraging news with Lowe.
Thanks DOB, great article but Wren still erks me…
I was hoping to wake up this morning to see the Smoltz stuff was just a bad dream.
By Thrillhouse44
January 9, 2009 4:34 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the blog. It’s tough to stay optimistic, but hopefully landing Lowe and/or trading for another pitcher will ease the sting of this week.
Gran Torino tonight!
By John FISHER
January 9, 2009 4:36 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB,
i love reading your stuff. long time fan. another great piece of insight into Braves world. Keep the good work coming, and thanks.
By the way guys, Wren shouldn’t be fired. Not his fault that Padres kept asking for more more more. Not his fault Furcal’s agent was a doucher. Not his fault the Yankees are loaded. We all love Smoltzie but really?? 41 years old coming off a third reconstructive surgery. Really? Really? Really? I know that if anybody can do it its him, but Really? Really?
By Alan
January 9, 2009 4:38 PM | Link to this
DOB, great work as always. I’m not nearly as upset about Smoltz now as I was yesterday, but I still think the Braves should not have let him get away. That said, now they’ve got to literally put their money where their mouth is. Sign Lowe and another arm (Sheets, Garland or Perez would top my list), and then sign either Dunn or Orlando Hudson (they have the same agent). If it’s Dunn, put him in LF. If it’s Hudson, put him at 2B and move KJ to LF. Let’s stop the hand-wringing and take action.
By Jim H.
January 9, 2009 4:38 PM | Link to this
We need Lowe bad. Real bad.
By Rick Long
January 9, 2009 4:39 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the update. Given Wren’s track record this offseason, I will believe that he can sign Lowe or any other quality free agent when it is confirmed. I felt all along that Lowe was a better candidate than Burnett given his proven durability and despite his age. I also did not understand why they previously showed no interest in him and chased after Burnett even after the Yankees made it clear they wanted him (there was no way the Braves could win a bidding war with the Yankees). The unfortunate reality is that loss of Smoltz makes the Braves’ interest in Lowe look like desperation, all of which will have Mr. Boras licking his chops.
By Erik
January 9, 2009 4:40 PM | Link to this
Billy I also believe that would be a huge success but I highly doubt that will happen. I could be wrong but I don’t think Dunn and Kawakami can be had for 15 million. We have around 30 to spend and if Lowe takes 50% of that then we are looking for probably one of those guys and then a lesser guy. So maybe Dunn and lets say Glav OR Kawakami and Nady or Ankiel.
By MiamiBeachBravesFan
January 9, 2009 4:41 PM | Link to this
Not signing Smoltz may or may not be a huge mistake; only this season will tell.
The greater tragedy in all of this is that we will end up grossly overpaying for Derek Lowe, most assuredly, if we sign him. If that is the case, then the Braves were better off signing Smoltz for the guaranteed $5 million for ONE season. It would have been a money-saver in the long run, given that 2009’s team is filled with too may more questions than answers.
2009 is a year to see if this team is a keeper, or if the lineup needs to be blown up in preparation for the next crop of Baby Braves. Hudson’s arrival at the END of the season underscores this salient fact. If this team does in fact need to be re-tooled, then the signing of Lowe represents the most vulgar waste of money there can be.
I say, use the pitchers you have, use Hanson as a starter in the mid-season, sign Glavine to salvage this fiasco, and use 2009 as an opportunity to evaluate still-young talent at the positions, before investing one penny on a big-contract pitcher.
PS - Andruw Jones has hit rock bottom. His stubborn determination to not go opposite field has allowed him to commit career suicide - at age 32. I would only sign him for $1 million - and not a penny more - with one condition: either he listens to AND FOLLOWS Terry Pendleton’s orders…
Or he can go back to the beaches of Curacao and be a better class of bum.
By RC
January 9, 2009 4:42 PM | Link to this
I sent the link about Kawakami being close to signing with Braves to Tim Dierkes of MLBTraderumors.com. He responded that the article is not accurate.
By Billy Pilgrim (Good luck Smoltzy & GO BRAVES!)
January 9, 2009 4:44 PM | Link to this
Doc I’m preparing myself for Lowe to go to the Mets (although Olney has apparently said he prefers Atlanta) and for Kawakami to go to St. Louis or Baltimore (despite the link that I saw posted on another Braves blog)…so close yet so far away sums it up beautifully.
By BossLady
January 9, 2009 4:45 PM | Link to this
The classy acts I saw in MLB was the way the Astros treated Bagwell and Biggio after being lifetimers for them. They let them choose and leave on their own terms in their own way. Even, the Braves gave Biggio a big send off. It is a shame what this organization does to the HOF players, a crying shame. Looking back over this teams record for lifers it started long before Smoltz and will probably not end soon. Chipper should go to the Red Sox too.
By Smack65
January 9, 2009 4:47 PM | Link to this
Frank could have offered Smoltz more, but John and Terry probably said not to after what happened last year. In the end both the President and CEO have to sign off on each deal. I am sure John and Terry had a rough time after last season explaining how nearly $40 million was spent on injured pitchers to Liberty Media. Not something they want to do again. While I am ticked at Frank (because in the end the pie does end up on his face) I think it is important to put blame where it is truly due. Terry and John deserve their fair share of the blame.
By lt200
January 9, 2009 4:48 PM | Link to this
I have to say that I was never on the fire fran wren banwagon until this Smoltz thing. I think this sends a horrible message to the fans and to the other aging stars on the team. Let’s face, Wren has gotten Vasquez and lost out on Peavy, Burnett, Furcal and let Smoltz walk. Maybe he should just trade Chipper now and let me move on to be a fan of Major League Soccer this year. Disappointing is not a strong enough adjective. I hope Smoltz wins a ring this year. He deserves it.
By ryan c
January 9, 2009 4:48 PM | Link to this
posted at talking chop. i dont know if it’s trustworthy so dont get all excited like we did with peavy……and burnett……and furcal. http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/sports/20090110TDY18311.htm
i do agree with the above statement. if we were able to land dunn, lowe, and kawakami, it would be a succcesful offseason. it would even make it more successful if we could trade prado and soriano for nady and phil hughes (the yankees are looking for a new utility infielder and possibly some bullpen depth). think of the top to bottom lineup:
escobar kj chipper dunn nady mccann kotchman schafer/blanco
adding to that, andruw for 400k would be a good gamble. if andruw could rebound to the score of .250 avg .350 obp 25-30 hr 85-100 rbi’s, we would be a hard-to-beat offense, and a pretty good defense to boot.
sorry to be a hater, but getting francoeur out of the everyday lineup via trade would be the biggest upgrade of the year. trading him for anything would be great. i think it was lenny dykstra that said, regarding a trade of an unwanted teammate: “Great trade….who did we get?”
By Billy Pilgrim (Good luck Smoltzy & GO BRAVES!)
January 9, 2009 4:49 PM | Link to this
Hmm…don’t know how Dierkes would know that but it was nice to think about while it lasted!
By Jim H.
January 9, 2009 4:49 PM | Link to this
DOB - With the failed pursuit of Furcal, have you had any indication that the Braves might pursue a similar type player (an infielder with good defensive skills and good speed who could serve as leadoff hitter….such as Orlando Hudson)? Then they could move KJ to the outfield as they planned to do when pursuing Furcal. Or do you think they are now pretty much locked in on getting an outfielder…..…just wondering.
Here’s to a better week of Braves news next week. Let’s have something positive happen for a change!
By CW
January 9, 2009 4:53 PM | Link to this
I don’t fault Smoltz for leaving, I don’t fault the Red Sox for wanting him and I don’t fault Wren for not signing him.
The Braves need arms ready for opening day that can consistently give them innings throughout the season. After last year, there is just no way the Braves could reasonably depend on Smoltz to produce.
The Red Sox don’t need Smoltz to start the season, they already have a strong rotation. To them this is chump change they are investing with the hope that Smoltz can pickup their staff later in the season during a pennant run. Different teams with completely different needs.
By Interested Observer
January 9, 2009 4:53 PM | Link to this
From Wren’s and McGuirk’s statements, it seems clear to me that the Braves never had any intention of negotiating with Smoltz. Their attitude was when the time was right, they’d offer what they felt was appropriate, Smoltz would sign it no questions asked and that would be that. The fact they were so suprised by Smoltz’ decision tells me they weren’t talking to Smoltz or paying any attention to what was going on. There’s no wonder Smoltz felt so disrepected. It’s just disgraceful.
By cmac1919
January 9, 2009 4:53 PM | Link to this
If Wren can sign Derek Lowe and Kenshin Kawakami and get over this foolish disinterest in Dunn and Abreau who despite there flaws are each 50 times better than our current outfield combined and sign one of them (unless he can get Nady or some other quality hitting outfielder), he can save a little face.
Wren would have ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for not getting these things done. I’m getting so sick of hearing Wren blaming the world for not getting deals done instead of taking at least a shread of responsibility for it.
By dannycardwell
January 9, 2009 4:54 PM | Link to this
i told you guys last year that wren sold us out as fans when he got rid of tex. when a gm gives up on a team in the middle of the season it sends a message to the players and fans. the players as a group were never the same. and then theres the fans. me for example. i had 4 tickets for several games the last 6 weeks i couldnt give away. its always cheaper to get tickets before the season starts. i wont make that mistake again.in stead of going to 3-4 games a month ill take my grand kids to one each. the braves management has a long history of mistreating fans. in the 80s you could get field level ticket coupons fron kroger in the paper for a few dollars. then when they started winning stan kasten gave a 30 year lease to those multi millionaiers at aaramark. the food and drink prices quadruples several times over. when they stopped letting people bring in food water and baby formula we boycotted. even today the attendance isnt what it used to be. when john smoltze was healthy my family and others i know from this area would always go to the games he was pitching in. it was all we had to look forward to this year knowing wren sureholtz and mcguirk was not going to field a good team. ill be very surprised if attendance dont drop off by 30 % or better. theres one good thing about going to see the columbus mudcats minor league team down here. cheap food, light traffic easy access in and out. and the fans get what they pay for, good entertainment at affordable prices and know that the organization appreciates its customers.
By ryan c
January 9, 2009 4:54 PM | Link to this
miamibeachbravesfan, actually, his career went rock bottom when he was pressed to start hitting to the opposite field. he was fine until terry pendelton started listening to the idiotic ramblings of the beloved braves sportscaster joe simpson. check out these stats from 2005. http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2005/06/the-myth-of-andruw-jones-and-the-other-way/
By dogsbrekky
January 9, 2009 4:55 PM | Link to this
I saw an article in a Japanese paper which when translated implied KAWAKAMI (KAMIKAZE) will sign with the Braves VERY SOON
Party on Wayne
By rammerjammer
January 9, 2009 4:59 PM | Link to this
David,
Marty Robbins, a legend. And those lyrics…very symbolic.
Could be Smoltz and Homeboy? Smoltz and Wren? Boras and Wren? Bradley and O’Brien? And just who is who?
Nah. Maybe more esoteric…big-market vs. medium-market? Got to think about this some more.
By Billy Pilgrim (Good luck Smoltzy & GO BRAVES!)
January 9, 2009 4:59 PM | Link to this
When the news broke late Wednesday night, I took a few steps toward the “Fire Frank Wren” bandwagon.
I hadn’t even looked in that direction all offseason, but the shock and disappointment made me consider lighting a torch and joining the masses. After giving the information time to digest, I turned and went home. The PR ramifications are undeniable, and the move is debatable.
But now that its settled, I think it was a move that is more likely to be right than wrong for the Braves.
By Chop Chop
January 9, 2009 4:59 PM | Link to this
If Lowe comes to Atlanta, I’ll be shocked. The Mets are a better baseball team right now. He turns 36 during next season. If winning is important, Atlanta doesn’t have much to offer in 2009.
By Jerry
January 9, 2009 5:04 PM | Link to this
Avery was a good youngster but he refused to workout and better his body and was let go.
I sure hope Hanson doesn’t follow that route and has a good work ethic.
I agree that if we can get Lowe, Dunn and the Japanese guy things will look up and people will say Smoltz who?
I’m not going to boycott the Braves or anything. They are my team and have been for 40 years.
I hate Smoltz is gone but the fact is that Smoltz is gone. I do hope he pitches in Atlanta so we can kick his tail on the field.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if the Braves make the playoffs and the RedSox don’t.
By nick
January 9, 2009 5:04 PM | Link to this
I believe we have about 34 million to spend assuming we would be willing to add payroll up around 100 million. We could get Lowe, Kawakami, and Dunn with that. Could defer a couple million to next year in one of those contracts for it to line up. Also it’s time to talk extension with Chipper, the man’s earned it. Anybody got info on whether or not they will make an offer to him before the start of the season?
By Blair
January 9, 2009 5:05 PM | Link to this
This is the first season I’ve followed the Hot Stove stuff even remotely close. Maybe I’m the reason for the Bravos’ woes…LOL.
By David O'Brien
January 9, 2009 5:06 PM | Link to this
I had another agent (not Kawakami’s) tell me that he also heard that Kawakami is going to sign with the Braves. But until I get it confirmed by either the player’s agent or someone else I can trust, I’ll just leave it at that.
By Billy Pilgrim (Good luck Smoltzy & GO BRAVES!)
January 9, 2009 5:06 PM | Link to this
Interested Observer - Wren stated the Braves intent in regards to Smoltz and Glavine very early in the offseason. They didn’t deviate from that. I don’t view that as disgraceful, but honest. The whining from McGuirk could’ve been kept behind closed doors, and that IS disgraceful. Wren is sticking to what he’s said all along: They will assemble the team as if Smoltz and Glavine wouldn’t be pitching. When it becomes CLEAR that one of the two will be able to pitch, then an offer would be discussed. I think Smack65 is right - there has been too much money paid to players on the DL in Atlanta, and 2.5 may have been all they could guarantee.
By Dogbyte
January 9, 2009 5:07 PM | Link to this
Would “With his big lip on the ground” work in here anywhere?
By DCbrave
January 9, 2009 5:14 PM | Link to this
I like that Wren keeps his mouth shut now as to negotiations although leaks can always happen from different sources.
Hopefully the only potential good thing for Smoltz’s leaving is that Wren feels more pressure now to sign Lowe (not that he did not get enough pressure) and realizes that he must somewhat overpay to get him (not that I like the overpaying but if that is the only way you can sign him, you’ve got to do it). A good GM or any negotiator’s bottomline always changes depending on situations. Keeping one rigid so called bottomline does nobody any good.
He shouldn’t provide an offer to Lowe unless He’s pretty sure Lowe would accept the offer and Boras would not use it to shop around based on whatever information Wren has, because the state of the Braves’ psyche is that it is so fragile that it cannot afford to be hurt anymore by something like a potential Lowe hardball. This may be hard to do but he’s got to do it. Otherwise anybody could be a GM.
As to Hanson, if he shows he’s ready to pitch in the major in spring training - at least as well as he did in Arizona - I don’t see why the Braves have to wait until summer or later to bring him to the major. Cox started Andrew and Furcal when they were really young but ready.
By KC
January 9, 2009 5:15 PM | Link to this
The long meeting with Lowe is encouraging.
Chipper’s ranting yesterday probably didn’t help anything, but hopefully everyone understands that John is a close friend of his, and he took it personally.
Lowe isn’t going to be signing a 1-year deal anywhere, so the considerations go beyond 2009. As such, the reality of the question marks facing this year’s team can be (and hopefully were) softened by the the promising talent (Hanson, Heyward, and others) on its way up - probably sooner rather than later.
If the Braves aren’t able to get the big bat they’re looking for this winter, I’d be willing to bet that they’ll get it either mid-season or next winter. And given that Heyward will probably debut this year or next… the lineup should be in good shape soon - be it this season or in 2010. Especially if Frenchy bounces back.
And if the Braves get Lowe to go with Jurrjens and Vazquez, that gives them a very good rotation 3-deep. Hanson will likely join that trio sometime soon to make the Braves (at least) 4-deep in the rotation. If Kawakami AND Lowe sign, the rotation should be in great shape.
Still plenty of reason for hope here folks. Sorry to see Smoltz go, but he wasn’t going to be able to help us much longer anyway (if in fact he can help anyone this year, which is not a certainty). Time to move on. And there are plenty of things to look foward to.
By todd
January 9, 2009 5:15 PM | Link to this
Smoltz made $$$ 14 mil last year for basically doing nothing. He stayed behind at extended spring training because he knew their was a problem with his shoulder, went on the DL and he was paid his $$ 14 mil salary. We don’t need you, have fun being yelled at in Boston, when you go down after 1 or 2 games. Maybe that oft injured, ARROGANT Larry Jones will be the next to leave. That would free up tons of money to pay players that can actually play an entire season.
By fordcobra
January 9, 2009 5:16 PM | Link to this
I don’t know how well Dunn hit lefties, but we do need a Big Bopper like him. I could never negotiate with agents, I am a bottom line guy, what will it take to get you? Unless the Braves trade for some starter or luck up with Lowe, it could be a long year. Also it is imperative they get some hitting.
By KC
January 9, 2009 5:17 PM | Link to this
If Kawakami signs with the Braves soon, not only does that leave one less question mark in the rotation… but I’d imaging that will help the Braves case in landing Lowe.
By dogsbrekky
January 9, 2009 5:18 PM | Link to this
DOB
The Japanese media DO NOT lie like some of their western brethren, I have seen the article in 2 separate Japanese language papers aimed at the local (not USA) fans.
I am pretty sure it means we are getting the kamikaze and as I said on one of your blogs 3 days ago that we were the big bidder for LOWE
I am never wrong on these things ;-)
By Rob
January 9, 2009 5:18 PM | Link to this
DOB, If the hear-say is true and we do sign Kawakami, and it occurs before Lowe signs, How will that effect our pursuit of Lowe? Will we still go hard after him?
By KC
January 9, 2009 5:19 PM | Link to this
cmac919: “If Wren can sign Derek Lowe and Kenshin Kawakami and get over this foolish disinterest in Dunn”
We don’t know that there IS a disinterest in Dunn. They’re not talking. I’m sure he’s not the Braves first choice, but in the absence of any other strong possibilities for adding as slugger, he may very well be on their radar.
By Steve from OH
January 9, 2009 5:21 PM | Link to this
DOB-thanks for the updates. The blog today was a particularly good read. Good news on Kawakami, hope we can sign him to a reasonable deal. Hope we can sign Lowe as well.
I’m very excited to see Hanson in a Braves uni (and Schafer as well).
By Jeff321
January 9, 2009 5:21 PM | Link to this
I hate to rain on the parade.. But, NO WAY Lowe signs with these Braves.
The homeboy downstairs gets the last laugh, eh!
By Threadkiller
January 9, 2009 5:24 PM | Link to this
We need to spend high to get Lowe! Next, forget the Japanese guy and get Pettitte for 2 yrs 20 mil. Next, trade JoJo & Morton to the Yankees for Nady. This would cost us 37 mil. including Vazquez.
Lowe, Pettitte, JJ, Vasquez, Campillo
2010
Hudson, Lowe, Pettitte, JJ, Vasquez
There ya Go!
By rammerjammer
January 9, 2009 5:25 PM | Link to this
BossLady,
There were very significant differences in the Astros situation with Bagwell and Biggio. Most importantly, both players believed they were finished, at least in the sense that they would not recapture their former greatness.
They were satisfied with their careers and secure with their accomplishments. They were not tempted to go elsewhere, and that made it very convenient for all involved.
John Smoltz is neither satisfied nor secure. He will chew off his own leg to get out of the trap. He will also chew off your leg if it helps his cause.
He is not interested in going quietly into baseball retirement. He will go kicking and screaming.
Other than the fact that Bagwell, Biggio and Smoltz are (or were) great players, there is no comparison to their departures. None.
By Sub-Prae
January 9, 2009 5:26 PM | Link to this
I have to agree that the Japanese reports are pretty much always correct in my experience(although….mine is small.)
By NJBraves
January 9, 2009 5:26 PM | Link to this
Ryan C, the Yankees wouldn’t trade Hughes for Santana last winter, now you want them to package him with Nady and all we ahve to give back is a reliever coming off surgery and a backup infielder? Really ? Come on man, come back to us. Ne ver gonna happen in a million years. Lowe would be a nice addition, but can we stop calling him a #1. He’s not. A solid #2 at best. And who knows what this Kawakami guy is. Lowe,JJ,Vazquez,Kawakami, Campillo is not going to win the NL East. I hope it does, but you have to be realistic.
By Eric from MO
January 9, 2009 5:27 PM | Link to this
Lets see…Encouraging news with Padres for trading Peavy (at one time front runner)…encouraging news with Burnett…encouraging news from Furcal (wasnt that a done deal depending on physical)…encouraging news on Smoltz being able to pitch for us next year…now remind me how many of them will be playing for the Braves next season…
By Maria
January 9, 2009 5:27 PM | Link to this
I think the rebuilding will be kind of exciting. We have great guys on the farm that will be here soon/if not when the season starts. I can’t wait for Heyward and Hanson…awesome! GO BRAVES! CHOP-CHOP!
By RC
January 9, 2009 5:28 PM | Link to this
Not saying that Kawakami won’t sign with the Braves, but the head of MLBTraderumors.com has already dismissed the link that everyone is referring to as “not accurate”. Just saying don’t get your hopes up.
By Fading Fan
January 9, 2009 5:29 PM | Link to this
Glad Wren had help in the meeting. Hoepfully all sharp objects were removed beforehand.
Always liked Bob Weir’s version of Big Iron with Ace circa 72.
By jeanE
January 9, 2009 5:31 PM | Link to this
At this sorry point, I feel like, who cares if we get Derek Lowe? This is my anger, disgust & sadness at this Smotlz debacle talking. I think Frank Wren is being big time disingenuous: translation, he’s full of you know what. Please, not disrespecting John Smoltz, what else is it, but a total lack of respect for an icon, no other word for it. He’s John “Freakin” Smoltz for God’s sake, if his arm is hanging limply at his side at this point, I DON”T CARE. Give him the $5 million necessary so that he can end his career where he will always belong, Atlanta. You have written the epitaph on your career headstone, Mr. Wren. This sorry decision, be it your or whoever with the Braves, will haunt you ‘til the end of your days. This is 10 x worse than Dominique Wilkins…when the Red Sox come to Atlanta, I hope everyone here where’s a Sox cap in solidarity protest. I also want to say a big Thank you to Chipper for his honest emotion & not trying to be “PC” at a time like this. God love him! And Steak Shapiro, you can just shut up about how he shouldn’t have said all of that, you make me sick, worst guy on Radio, period. No wonder your station is crashing & burning.
By Kevsny13
January 9, 2009 5:32 PM | Link to this
DOB,
What do you think of the Braves revisiting talks of a Rick Ankiel for Kelly Johnson trade? Ankiel could play center and would greatly improve their OF power. Also, the Braves could at some point bring up either Schaffer or Gorkys to platoon in left with Diaz, thus grooming one of them for the CF job in 2010 assuming Ankiel walks (which would give the Braves a compensation pick).
Kelly is already arbitration eligible and his defense just isn’t good enough for an up the middle position. Let’s also not forget that his power numbers dipped from ‘07 to ‘08 and he was hitting in the low .260’s going into September. I think his +20 point jump in batting average is due more to the fact that most teams were trotting out inexperienced pitchers so they can get their feet wet more than anything else. If I were GM I would go with Ankiel in CF and Prado at 2B in ‘09 and than in 2010 Schaffer in CF and sign FA Brian Roberts for 2B. What do you think?
By DCbrave
January 9, 2009 5:32 PM | Link to this
I am pretty sure it means we are getting the kamikaze -dogsbrekky
Hopefully the Braves don’t get any Kamikaze girls! Just kidding. seriously, even if we do get Kawakami, he may be just like James for the first year, a 5-inning buy at best, but it is better than nothing.
If you have a link for any of those Japanese articles, I can read it as I know Japanese.
By Erik
January 9, 2009 5:35 PM | Link to this
DOB BIG QUESTION FOR YOU
Does signing Kawakami make it less likely that we would then sign Lowe?
By Bill
January 9, 2009 5:35 PM | Link to this
I don’t get it. Surely it would have been worth another few million in goodwill to have kept Smoltz. We could have given him the option of bringing anyone else’s offer to us and let him tell us how much it would take to bring him back. Even if he doesn’t pitch another inning, it would have been worth it. A farewell tour would recoup all, if not more than the difference if he did pitch. If he didn’t pitch it would be showing other players considering the Braves in the future that we try to keep our teams together and reward loyalty. I know this is a business but even considering that, this was probably not the right move. He was and still is my vote for Cox’s susccessor.
By ATLawk
January 9, 2009 5:38 PM | Link to this
I still want to see a trade for Peavy, even at the cost of Hanson. However, if we don’t do that, let’s make sure that we sign Lowe and Kawakami. If Wren wants to help his reputation, he needs to get this done now. I just saw that the Mets are close to a deal with Lowe. Hopefully that will help our changes to reel in Lowe. Go Braves!!!
By Brandonc
January 9, 2009 5:38 PM | Link to this
I think it’s a great sign that Lowe AND Boras were in a 5 hour meeting with the Braves. I may be wrong, but has Boras been in ANY kind of meeting with Braves officials in a while? I think it’s cool that they got some good ol’ boys from country music to make a pitch to Lowe (I’m a big Alan Jackson fan). He is sorely needed on this team, so whatever it takes they need to give it to him.
As for Tommy Hanson, DUH!!! We know this kid is something special. I can’t wait to see what he does in spring training and hopefully if he doesn’t start in Atlanta they will put him in Gwinette to start the year. I’d love to go see him in person. I think Hanson and Heyward are both deserving of the #1 spot and both are surely going to make an impact on this team in the future.
I’m also glad to hear Wren might be warming up to the thought of Adam Dunn. We know he strikes out a lot, but we could use his power big time.
By Sub-Prae
January 9, 2009 5:39 PM | Link to this
””“”By RC
January 9, 2009 5:28 PM | Link to this
Not saying that Kawakami won’t sign with the Braves, but the head of MLBTraderumors.com has already dismissed the link that everyone is referring to as “not accurate”. Just saying don’t get your hopes up.”“”“”
Actually, I know he e-mailed that person and said it was inaccurate, but on the website itself, Dierkes simply says he thinks the report “jumped the gun”.
By Smoky Joe Wood
January 9, 2009 5:40 PM | Link to this
I like Nady, but with him being a one-year rental, we should NOT give up more than, say, Prado (who should interest them) and a mid-tier pitching prospect. They got Swisher for a less successful utility player—Betemit—so that should be enough to get it done.
C’mon, Wren. Do something!
By Glen W
January 9, 2009 5:43 PM | Link to this
As for the Avery comment, about his supposedly ignoring his body… absolutely not true. He and his wife had a child that was having serious medical issues. He was flying home in between starts, as opposed to following his normal routine. I am sure that impacted him, but he was not ignoring his body; he was taking care of his family.
By j.salter
January 9, 2009 5:47 PM | Link to this
signlowe-tradehernandezfornady-thenmaybemorepeoplewillwanttosignwithatlanta
By Billy Pilgrim (Good luck Smoltzy & GO BRAVES!)
January 9, 2009 5:47 PM | Link to this
KC - 5:15
Couldn’t agree more. Let’s hope we’re right
By Bud
January 9, 2009 5:48 PM | Link to this
The points made comparing Dunn to Andruw are valid, save on further point: Dunn is an on-base machine, where Andruw is not. While Dunn DOES indeed strike out a lot, it seems that whenevr he isn’t striking out, he either walks or hits a monster HR! I think with Dunn at the 5-spot and Francoeur hitting cleanup, there would be an increase in production from the middle of the lineup over last year.
By Eric from MO
January 9, 2009 5:49 PM | Link to this
Threadkiller you say get Pettite for 2 years for 20 mil??? He has already been offered 2 years at 26mil by a contender. Why would he come to a crappy team for less money.
I agree with DCBrave 5:14 post. Why not start Hanson in Atlanta next year? He has already dominated the minors and the Fall League. What more does he have to do to get him here?
By bravesfaninmetsland
January 9, 2009 5:51 PM | Link to this
I don’t want to rain on anyone’s Lowe parade, but the reports from all the local sources up here are in the NY area are that the Mets will not be outbid for him, and no matter what any team offers, the Mets will more then match it. I hope this information is false but it’s coming from every news sourse I am reading/hearing/seeing locally in NY
By dogsbrekky
January 9, 2009 5:55 PM | Link to this
DOB and Rc etc
I lived in Japan and have done business in their markets for 19 years and sprechen sie ciotto Japanese
This website has good info on Kamikaze Kawakami, his numbers are very good and he has gone > 200 innings before see http://www.japaneseballplayers.com/en/player.php?id=kkawakami
This site has one of the stories, it is in the Nikkan sports http://www.nikkansports.com/baseball/mlb/news/p-bb-tp2-20090108-447919.html
By Heath
January 9, 2009 5:55 PM | Link to this
I think the signings of Kawakami, Lowe, Ohman, and Dunn would make the Braves very competitive….may not get us in the playoffs this year, but could really set us up nicely for next year.
Lowe - 4/60 (maybe 5/75, 5th being a vesting year or something possibly)
Dunn - 3/40 (maybe 4/55)
Ohman - 3/12
Kawakami - 3/30
That is around $40M for this year…but that seems doable with the continued reports that the economy is not supposed to prohibit the Braves from making moves. These moves, for the most part, satsify our starting and relief pitching needs, and we get a big bat for left field. And, yea, Dunn is no HOF defender, but he is atleast serviceable…especially since the other two defenders in the outfield are better than serviceable.
-Johnson 2B -Escobar SS -Jones 3B -Dunn LF -McCann C -Francoeur RF -Kotchman 1B -CF (could be a couple different people) -P
Bench (Notables): Diaz, Prado, 4th OF, Backup C, etc…
Rotation: -Lowe -JJ -Vasquez -Kawakami -Hanson
Not bad…not great….respectable.
By I call BS!
January 9, 2009 6:00 PM | Link to this
I heard Frank Wren say on 680 The Fan today that they were looking for financial “protection” for John Smoltz in case he did not pitch. Apparently, the Braves didn’t think Smoltz was worth a 3 million gamble… Okay, I don’t buy it, but okay.
So why can’t they take out an insurance policy on Smoltz to ensure financial protection? That premium would not cost them anywhere near what the difference between the Red Sox and Braves would be.
I call bullshiot!
By dogsbrekky
January 9, 2009 6:01 PM | Link to this
Lowe does not want to play for the Mets I have heard and he did NOT bother going to the meeting with Minaya because they kinda insulted him with their low ball offer…
Watching SNY here in NY and yes they are all over the please sign Lowe (a sinkerballer) BECAUSE apparently the new S** Field has tested as a home run hitters paradise, balls just fly out of there…. if you believe the news in NY
By DCbrave
January 9, 2009 6:03 PM | Link to this
“Daily Yomiuri” is one of the most influential news agencies in Japan. Looks like there is a big chance we could get Kawakami but we have to endure the uncertainly of one more week to know as the article (http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/sports/20090110TDY18311.htm) says Kawakami expects a contract from the Braves by “the end of next week.”
By LTBravesFan
January 9, 2009 6:03 PM | Link to this
Look up and find out how many errors Kelly Johnson had in the second half last year, I think ya’ll might be a little surprised, not saying they were great numbers but not as bad as people are saying. Keep in mind it’s still a fairly new position to him to be playing in the majors (he improved from his first year at 2nd). I could be wrong but Kelly’s feilding pct. was better than average/solid in the second half than in the first half. Could be wrong on his stats looking better in the second half but stats do not always tell the story.
What about the teams fighting for the playoffs, they were’t just throwing ppl out there the World Series Champs, Mets, Astros were still in it till the last two days of the season, Marlins (got to face the Marlins top two twice late in the season), and I think the Gaints too but i am not sure on that one(good pitching, couldnt score runs).
By Eric from MO
January 9, 2009 6:04 PM | Link to this
j salter,”tradehernandezfornady.”
You will give up our number 4 prospect for a one year rental for a decent outfielder? That is dumb. Considering Hanson and Heyward cant be touched our big trade pieces is Schafer and Hernandez. Once one is traded the other will not be. So basically you will trade our only good trade piece for a one year rental for a decent outfielder.
By Threadkiller
January 9, 2009 6:04 PM | Link to this
Eric; What contender? I have only seen the 1yr 10 mil offer he rejected from the Yanks. I must have missed the other teams offer of 2 @ 26..
By KC
January 9, 2009 6:06 PM | Link to this
Eric from MO: “I agree with DCBrave 5:14 post. Why not start Hanson in Atlanta next year?”
Both Wren and Schuerholz have been interviewed over the winter and have said pretty much the same thing in regard to Hanson…
They’ve said “We’ll continue to let Hanson show us where he should pitch next season”. They’ve said that their preference is to start him at AAA (just to be absolutely, positively sure they’re not rushing him in the slightest).
But if Hanson performs in the spring anywhere near the way he did in the Arizona Fall League, they won’t be able to deny him a spot in the rotation. Unless… both Lowe and Kawakami sign here AND Glavine make a strong comeback. Apart from that scenario, Hanson’s performance in the spring will determine where he starts the season.
By Sub-Prae
January 9, 2009 6:07 PM | Link to this
””“That is around $40M for this year…but that seems doable with the continued reports that the economy is not supposed to prohibit the Braves from making moves. “”“”
Yes, but we’ve already added Javier Vazquez’ 11 million to the payroll, plus David Ross and Greg Norton. The Braves did not have over 50 million $ to spend this offseason. More like 40. That leaves us with around 25 million$, what with the above mentioned deals, and the arbitration eligible players already on the club.
By Chuck James was Solid until the 6th!!!
January 9, 2009 6:08 PM | Link to this
I am pretty sure it means we are getting the kamikaze and as I said on one of your blogs 3 days ago that we were the big bidder for LOWE
Haha
I think the wild card in all of this is Tom Glavine. If healthy who is to say he can’t start 25-30 games and be the dark horse at the #5 spot this year? Seeing what Jamie Moyer is doing is pretty remarkable at 46 years old and Tommy will only be 41 this year. I think if Glavine can give Atlanta 25-30 healthy starts which really isn’t a push if things progress as they have he can post 12+ wins with a low to mid 4 ERA. I believe last year was flukey with Glavine and he will bounce back nicely and finally have one thing swing in Atlanta’s favor.
By GTgirl
January 9, 2009 6:08 PM | Link to this
Erik DOB Does signing Kawakami make it less likely that we would then sign Lowe?
Pretty much any pitcher the Braves sign that has a good chance of being a solid big league pitcher will help with signing Lowe. while it would allow him to still be the “Ace” it would take off some of the load on his shoulders..If, if he signs…
By Anders
January 9, 2009 6:10 PM | Link to this
As I said weeks ago, the fact that Boras is Lowe’s agent might actually help the Braves. I fully expect the Braves will offer more guaranteed money (probably in years) and then it will come down to wether Lowe takes less to play with a likely contender (Mets) or just goes for the most $’s which is Boras’ history. Ironicly a trait many on here have cursed Boras for repeatedly.
By mbatl
January 9, 2009 6:10 PM | Link to this
So why can’t they take out an insurance policy on Smoltz to ensure financial protection?
*I call BS! *, would you write an insurance policy on a 42-year-old pitcher coming off major shoulder surgery? I imagine that insuring a $5 mil contract on Smoltz would cost about $4.5 mil in premium.
By Eric from MO
January 9, 2009 6:12 PM | Link to this
Heath I agree with you except on Dunn. First off I dont think we have that much money left. We had 45 million at begining offseason. We spent 11 on Vazquez. Which puts us at 34 million. Also do you really want Dunn with a career .250 BA blocking any of our young outfielders(Heyward, Schafer, and Hernandez)? Im not a Dunn fan, have never hidden that. However, I have come around to signing him for a year, but I dont want him blocking our prospects. 3 years is just too much.
By AndyA
January 9, 2009 6:15 PM | Link to this
DOB,
Does the way the Smoltz fiasco played out change your mind in any way about the need for a salary cap? It really frustrates me that Boston can afford to guarantee more money on a gamble (and as good as Smoltz is, he’s merely a low risk gamble for the Red Sox since they aren’t depending on him in any real way) than the Braves can afford to spend on a guy who, at the point when they lost him, looked like the most likely to be their number one starter once he returned. I understand the “parity” that allowed 7 teams to win the last 8 championships…but this kind of thing just wouldn’t happen under a cap system. And I’m sure revenues have been up and all, but I fully expect Braves revenues will be down this year (even more than they would have taking the poor economy into account), because of this one move. It might also lessen the amount of power an agent like Boras has on the whole process, since a bidding war could only go so high. Just curious if your opinion has changed.
By UNCBrave
January 9, 2009 6:16 PM | Link to this
DAVE O’BRIEN,
By Billy Pilgrim (Good luck Smoltzy & GO BRAVES!)
January 9, 2009 6:16 PM | Link to this
I call BS! What insurance company would grant a policy on a 42 year-old pitcher who just underwent the most debilitating surgery a pitcher can have?
By RC
January 9, 2009 6:17 PM | Link to this
Bud,
Andruw WAS an on-base machine for the period I was comparing him to Dunn (about 3 years ago). Go back and look at Andruw’s stats. He had 82 walks and a .363 OBP. Dunn consistenly is just over 100 walks and has had an OBP between .386 and .388 4 of the past 5 years (the other year was ironically the same year Andruw was .363, when Dunn had a .365). While that is better than Andruw, I don’t think that .020 of on base percentage is outweighed by the tremendous gap in defense between the two. That being said, I stand by my point that the team will be no better with Dunn than it was with Andruw a few years back (which may be enough, but not as great as some are implying).
By Eric from MO
January 9, 2009 6:19 PM | Link to this
Threadkiller, honestly Im not sure. I just recall one day seeing a couple of people talking about it on here that a team,dont remember which one but they had one, had offered him 2 years for 26. How true it is I dont know, but figured since a couple of people had heard about it their had to be some reporting of it.
KC, thanks. I hadnt seen that. I saw where they said they preferred him starting out at Triple A. Which I took that more than likely that was where he would start.
By bill
January 9, 2009 6:20 PM | Link to this
KC, If Hanson is truly ready to start in the ML then I’d rather have him in the rotation than Glavine or Kawakami. Lot more upside and the sooner he settles into being a ML pitcher the better for all of us Braves fans.
That being said it wouldn’t kill me to see Glavine at the #5 spot under some scenarios.
Frankly I’m fine with Campillo at #5. I think he is underrated by everyone.
By Chuck James was Solid until the 6th!!!
January 9, 2009 6:21 PM | Link to this
BravesFanInMetsLand
Obviously the Mets don’t want to be outbid, but I have been listening to WFAN and Mike Francesa all day in the background and have not heard anything remotely close to that “they won’t be outbid”. I actually get the impression from listening to Mets beat guys on SNY and others that if Lowe turns down a deal for 3 yrs/with a 4th yr option then they will move on to Olver Perez which would be golden for Atlanta. Mets do not wan’t to exceed 3 guaranteed years for Lowe from what I have heard up here in NY today. The 5 hour meeting with Atlanta is very encouraging and I think the guaranteed 4th year (along with Alan Jackson’s pitch) will get Lowe starting opening day in Philly.
Please Frank Wren, anything positive soon bud, you’re killing us!
By NCBravesFan
January 9, 2009 6:22 PM | Link to this
Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t see the point in overpaying for Lowe (both in monetary terms and length of contract) if we were not willing to do it with anyone else. Lowe is OK, but I just don’t think he’s a guy who will help the Braves contend this season.
Why not explore a cheaper option to flesh out the rotation, see what we have in Hanson, Morton and JoJo … and then take our time to make a good deal for a front-line SP at a later date - when the market is more in our favor?
I’m afraid the Braves, in their rush to do SOMETHING in the wake of a series of blunders (both perceived and real), may end up doing the wrong thing (s) in the next few days.
By I call BS!
January 9, 2009 6:23 PM | Link to this
mbatl- sorry, but the policy only has to be what the difference is between the two. That is the protection. You are saying to insure the whole thing, that is a different premium.
I would want my team to do that for the “face of the franchise” and most popular player in “Atlanta” Braves history. I don’t think that is too much to ask. Sorry you do.
By brian
January 9, 2009 6:26 PM | Link to this
great band you are Billy Pilgrim!
By Navagrey
January 9, 2009 6:29 PM | Link to this
Just heard FW on 680 The Fan. His comments were similar to what DOB wrote about in his last blog.
Some thoughts:
For the people who don’t care about paying Smoltz a guaranteed x million dollars as a “thank you”: it’s easy to give away other people’s (or, in this case, company’s) money, isn’t it?. The Braves are not the Yankees. They don’t have their own baseball network (TBS isn’t the Braves TBS of the 80’s). They don’t have a new billion dollar stadium in the works. They don’t have an unlimited payroll. Oh, and FYI, Smoltz made $14M last year…for 28 IP. For the math-impaired, that’s a cool $500K per inning pitched. Pretty good work, if you can get it.
One thing people seems to be missing (or don’t seem to be care about): if Smoltz would have been on the active roster for 60 days, he gets $5M guaranteed. Not 60 days pitching. Just be on the active roster for 60 days, and it’s $5M, not $2M. That’s only $500k less than the $5.5M Boston offered him. Doesn’t seem too shabby to me. The other incentives in the Boston and Atlanta offer are unknown to me, but the guaranteed money part doesn’t seem to be anything to feel slighted about; and it certainly doesn’t seem to fit under the category of “large discrepancies” that Smoltz was quoted as saying earlier with regard to the difference in offers between Boston and Atlanta. DOB wrote that Smoltz would have to pitch 200 innings well to reach those incentives in the Braves offer. Well, from 2005 to 2007, Smoltz pitched 229.2, 232, and 205.2 innings with ERAs of 3.06, 3.49, and 3.11. If Smoltz pitched just as well or even slightly less in 2009, he would have probably hit those incentives.
Every million that goes towards a non-performing asset is money that cannot be used to sign a starting pitcher, left fielder, etc. Baseball is a business. Sports is a business. Don’t talk to me about “loyalty.” I want the Braves to win. I don’t want the Braves to waste money on injury-prone players who possibly cannot play (remember Mike Hampton?). Requiring a player to be healthy before a $3M guarantee vests isn’t a sign of disrespect. The “fans” who are howling because a long-time Brave is leaving need to wake up and buy a clue.
Smoltz is 42 and has had a multitude of injuries and surgeries (Tommy John surgery, torn labrum). I disagreed with FW about throwing so much money at Furcal (bad back) and Burnett, but I don’t disagree with him about Smoltz. Sure, it’d be great to have him back, but not at $5M guaranteed whether he pitches another inning or not. Use that money smartly or elsewhere, please.
By all accounts, Dr. James Andrews said that the damage he repaired in Smoltz’s labrum was significant. For a soon to be 42-year old pitcher, even of Smoltz’ pedigree, that’s got to be a major factor in how much teams were willing to pay for his services. One thing is very telling: Smoltz said, “There were large discrepancies between the offer from the Braves and offers from other teams.” Now, whether “teams” is code for “Boston” is up for debate, but even if there were other teams in the running, how strange is it that the “winning” bid for Smoltz’ services was only $5.5M? Injury-prone AJ Burnett got $82.5M for 5 years…without ever winning more than 12 games in his 10-year career until last year when he went 18-10. Did the Braves really disrespect Smoltz by offering $2M guaranteed with another $3M vesting with 60 days on the active roster?
The bottom line is the same here as it is anywhere else these days in sports. Money is what drove this deal, specifically the more guaranteed money and more easily attainable incentives in the Boston offer as opposed to Atlanta’s offer. The perceived disrespect on Smoltz’ part is misperceived. I feel disrespected as a fan that he collected $14M for 28IP last year and didn’t apologize or offer to give any of it back to use on this year’s team. You want your parting “thank you” gift? That was it.
FYI: I’m a huge Braves fan. I remember when there were 500 people in the stands instead of 50,000. I remember the days of Terry Blocker and Dion James and Andres Thomas with his aggravatingly weak upper-cut swing. I’m glad FW didn’t mortgage the future for Peavy. I’m glad the Furcal thing didn’t work out. I’m glad the Burnett thing didn’t work out. I’m sad about Smoltz, but I put the blame more on him than on FW and the Braves. I hope we don’t overpay for Lowe should we get him.
P.S. For the person who posted a link awhile back about FW being fired from the Orioles: There was a point in the article where the owner of the Orioles said he was upset about FW telling the charter plane to leave without Cal Ripken who was running 10-15 minutes late due to traffic. I run a business, and one thing I’ve learned is that you have to treat everyone the same. Every employee you have should be treated the same, from the superstars to the bench player. If you don’t, the employees will respect you less as a boss, and internal strife will reign (“Why is x getting special treatment and not me?” See Manny Ramirez, Terrell Owens, or any other sports diva). As a superstar, Ripken should be the one setting the example, not trying to be the exception to the rule. You’re Cal Ripken, Jr. Use a helicopter. Use a police escort. Or…how about budgeting your time better?
By No Nady
January 9, 2009 6:32 PM | Link to this
Good article by JC Bradbury over at Sabernomics.com. He said he agreed with the Braves in letting Smoltz walk, but thought it was pretty classless of the organization to try and paint their offer as being roughly equal to the Red Sox. He in essence called BS on the Braves stating that the Braves incentives to get Smoltz to 10 mil were impossible to reach. He continued that the Braves were simply lying to their fans in an attempt at damage control.
Now on to Nady. Pleaaaaaaseee No Nady! I like the guy, think he would be a good addition…..except…..he’s a one year rental. I’m sick of those types! If the Braves give up ANYTHING for Nady, they will be giving too much. I’m not an Adam Dunn fan either so I hope we don’t go that route.
By KC
January 9, 2009 6:35 PM | Link to this
Anders: Well, if the reports are true and the Braves do sign Kawakami, that gives them 3 very solid starters. No ace (though Jurrjens could very well establish himself as that this year)… but certainly 3 very solid starters.
Add Derek Lowe - and probably Tommy Hanson - to those 3, and the Braves could have an excellent rotation.
And when you consider the fact that the Braves will have 3 closers (assuming health) in the bullpen when Moylan gets back (in April or May)…
If Kawakami is already in the fold, then Derek Lowe won’t have to choose between a contender OR the Braves, as the Braves will BE a contender.
I’m not saying that the additions of Lowe and Kawakami would make them favorites, but those two in combination with Jurrjens, Vazquez, possibly Hanson, and a loaded bullpen, would certainly make the Braves contenders.
The Braves would still be missing a piece or two offensively, but the pitching would be stacked enough to make the Braves winners. Decidedly so.
And as I pointed out a moment ago, Lowe isn’t signing a 1-year deal. The Braves will continue to aggressively pursue another bat. If they don’t get it now, there’s a good chance they’ll do something mid-season.
If they can’t get the offense where they want it this year, the pitching staff will still be fully in place for 2010 (as long as they re-sign Mike Gonzalez, which will probably be their top priority next winter)… at which time they can add another piece AND top prospect, Heyward, should be ready (if he’s not already here).
Anyway, as much as you may want to believe otherwise, the Braves are not on the road to oblivion. Plenty of talent either here or on the on the way shortly, and they have the resources both in cash and trade bait to continue improving the team.
By RC
January 9, 2009 6:37 PM | Link to this
I really don’t think baseball needs a salary cap. With a salary cap, the Braves would have lost guys like Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz LONG before they actually did because they wouldn’t have been able to afford to keep them. What SHOULD happen however, is a law that prevents teams from using taxpayer funds for a stadium that will generate revenue for a billionaire owner. I have no problem with the Yankees spending as much as they do. What I have a problem with is them spending as much as they do while taxpayers foot the bill on their new stadium. There is no excuse for it, and it’s just plain wrong. Or on the other end of spectrum, I have a problem with Jeffery Loria threatening to move the Marlins if Miami doesn’t build him a new stadium while spending LESS THAN HE RECEIVES IN LUXURY TAXES on payroll and pocketing the rest. For all the people that dislike Steinbrenner, he at least always put the money back into the team. And owner like Loria is the worst possible situation for a baseball fan. (He also ruined the Expos before selling them back to MLB at a huge profit, just to move onto the buy the Marlins. Someone needs to stop the man.)
By RC
January 9, 2009 6:39 PM | Link to this
Nady would be an AWESOME one year rental, if we could get him for a mid-level prospect. The reason being that he SHOULD be a Type-A free agent at the end of the year, and likely will not accept arbitration. That means you trade a medium prospect for him now, get a year of production, and then get 2 draft picks in 2010. How is that a bad plan? (If he doesn’t cost more than a mid-level prospect to acquire)
By KC
January 9, 2009 6:40 PM | Link to this
bill: “KC, If Hanson is truly ready to start in the ML then I’d rather have him in the rotation than Glavine or Kawakami.”
I agree with you, however, it’s probably not an either/or situation. The only scenario in which we’d have Glavine or Kawakami instead of Hanson would be if we sign Lowe AND Kawakami, AND Glavine makes a strong comeback.
Otherwise, we could very well see Hanson and Kawakami… or Hanson and Glavine.
By KC
January 9, 2009 6:43 PM | Link to this
Erik: I agree with GTgirl… Kawakami would make it more likely that Lowe signs with Atlanta. By eliminating one more question mark (the 4th starter slot in this case), the Braves can only look a little more attractive to Lowe. And the money is there to sign both.
By I call BS!
January 9, 2009 6:43 PM | Link to this
Navagrey- Every MLB team risks every players contract against injury every year. So, to single out John Smoltz collecting 14 mil or whatever it was while being injured is not fair to Smoltz, the Braves or fans. That is a one-sided statement that appears to back your view, but it really is crapp cause every team does it.
You are correct that money drove this deal. The Braves were unwilling to gamble 3 million dollars on a player who gave them everything for 21 years…and another team is.
By Thrillhouse44
January 9, 2009 6:46 PM | Link to this
D.Lowe? It kind of has that K-Fed feel to it, doesn’t it? I say D.Lowe finishes the year with more hits than K-Fed.
By JerseyGil
January 9, 2009 6:48 PM | Link to this
2009 International Rotation i Love it Vazquez,JJ,Kawakami,Lowe,Hanson,Morton. I guest that the Braves have to sign an Linguistist for the dogout. I’m available..DOB…i speak three Language, Spanish,Englist,Japanees.
By DCbrave
January 9, 2009 6:49 PM | Link to this
Add Derek Lowe - and probably Tommy Hanson - to those 3, and the Braves could have an excellent rotation -KC
I’m afraid your bar for “excellent rotation” may be a bit too low.
By cmac1919
January 9, 2009 6:49 PM | Link to this
On paper, that looks about as good and consistent as any rotation in the majors. But seeing as I know who the GM is, I’m not getting my hopes up.
As for Hanson…meh, I just don’t have any faith in Braves prospects anymore, especially not the pitching prospects. I don’t care what’s been said about him. If/when he pitches against actual major league teams and still dominates, i’ll hop on the bandwagon.
By KC
January 9, 2009 6:49 PM | Link to this
RC: We at least need a salary cap that will reign in the Yankees if no one else.
I know a number of people in different baseball markets who have been completely turned off to baseball by the fact that their favorite young players always leave as soon as they’re eligible for free agency.
These were true baseball fans that were sickened by the WAY-BEYOND-ASININE payroll discrepancies in baseball. After watching their team lose a few stars to the Yankees because they have 250 million to spend, where their team only has 70 million… they just lost interest in the game.
It’s not healthy for baseball. The last major labor agreement was supposed to “reign in the Yankees”. Those were Tom Glavine’s exact words when he represented the Players Association during those labor negotiations. Needless to say, the luxury tax has not reigned in the Yankees as the Players Association said it would. So it’s time for plan-B. Something has to be done about this.
A 140 million dollar salary cap would still allow the top spending teams to spend twice as much as smaller market teams can spend (even if they stretch)… but that’s a hell of a lot better than the Yankees spending 5 times as much as some other teams. Dear Lord… FIVE TIMES!!!! How has baseball let this happen???????
By No Nady
January 9, 2009 6:50 PM | Link to this
Good article by JC Bradbury over at Sabernomics.com. He said he agreed with the Braves in letting Smoltz walk, but thought it was pretty classless of the organization to try and paint their offer as being roughly equal to the Red Sox. He in essence called BS on the Braves stating that the Braves incentives to get Smoltz to 10 mil were impossible to reach. He continued that the Braves were simply lying to their fans in an attempt at damage control.
Now on to Nady. Pleaaaaaaseee No Nady! I like the guy, think he would be a good addition…..except…..he’s a one year rental. I’m sick of those types! If the Braves give up ANYTHING for Nady, they will be giving too much. I’m not an Adam Dunn fan either so I hope we don’t go that route.
By Chop Chop
January 9, 2009 6:50 PM | Link to this
Ripken was the only star the O’s had. Frank Wren certainly should have learned that there’s not a lot of respect to be gained in humbling a legend. Tact is required. Professional courtesy is expected (oh, how Wren and Schuerholz howled when professional courtesy was not paid to them in the Furcal dealings). Any GM or manager who believes that every player must be treated the same in every circumstance is a GM or manager that won’t keep his job for long. Exceptions shouldn’t be the rule, but they certainly exist.
Think of how many times Cal Ripken, Jr. set the example for his teammates over the years. Is a slip-up worth that sort of example? If anything, that sort of response makes the other players doubt they’ll be respected. The same reason Chipper was so angry about Smoltz’s departure is the reason why other players might wonder what their loyalty to the Braves is worth now. If 95% of that clubhouse didn’t want to keep Smoltz, I’d be shocked. It’s not just our reaction to his departure. It’s the fact that money ended up playing a role in that departure. That p** just about everyone off.
By Plato
January 9, 2009 6:52 PM | Link to this
Wren Sux.
By brent a.
January 9, 2009 6:59 PM | Link to this
My position on the salary cap is that while a cap may not be necessary/realistic, placing a cap on players’ salary and contract lengths may work.
A combination of limiting the length and $ amount of players contracts, combined with giving an advantage in both length and $ amount to the free agents current team, could reduce the number of free agents who flee to major markets, simply because they can get more money to go there.
Force a player to take less money and a shorter contract if he wants to leave in free agency; or, at least give his team the option of topping his highest bidder to a point where the highest bidder can’t simply come in and offer more.
In addition, for the free agent who is definitely not returning to his existing team, he will at best, have two identical offers from competing teams that desire his services. That way, he really has to choose between New York and Atlanta, and not simply choosing to take an extra $2 or $3 million.
By KC
January 9, 2009 7:00 PM | Link to this
cmac1919: “I just don’t have any faith in Braves prospects anymore, especially not the pitching prospects.”
Huh?? A prospect is less promising because of the organization he plays for???
None of us can entirely jump on the wagon until he starts getting outs at the big league level. That goes without saying. But he’s as good as any prospect could ever possibly look.
In addition to his overall dominance of minor league hitters and a no-hitter last year, he was the first pitcher in history to win the Arizona Fall League MVP.
The Arizona Fall League is where teams send their best prospects, and it’s an incredibly offense-oriented league. It averages more runs per game than Coors Field ever did.
Seriously, succeeding there is like succeeding at Coors, pre-humidor. He’s been nothing short of dominant. He’s 6’6 with outstanding stuff (including a mid-90’s fastball), good control, and a great approach/mound presence.
Keep in mind that this is a guy the Braves wouldn’t trade straight-up for one of the best pitchers in baseball. They don’t get any more promising than this kid.
By No Nady
January 9, 2009 7:02 PM | Link to this
Good article by JC Bradbury over at Sabernomics.com. He said he agreed with the Braves in letting Smoltz walk, but thought it was pretty classless of the organization to try and paint their offer as being roughly equal to the Red Sox. He in essence called BS on the Braves stating that the Braves incentives to get Smoltz to 10 mil were impossible to reach. He continued that the Braves were simply lying to their fans in an attempt at damage control.
Now on to Nady. Pleaaaaaaseee No Nady! I like the guy, think he would be a good addition…..except…..he’s a one year rental. I’m sick of those types! If the Braves give up ANYTHING for Nady, they will be giving too much. I’m not an Adam Dunn fan either so I hope we don’t go that route.
By KC
January 9, 2009 7:03 PM | Link to this
DCbrave: “I’m afraid your bar for “excellent rotation” may be a bit too low.”
Really DCbrave? How so?
Please explain to me why Lowe/Jurrjens/Vazquez/Kawakami/Hanson wouldn’t likely be an excellent rotation.
By I call BS!
January 9, 2009 7:05 PM | Link to this
No Nady- i think the Braves practice of lying to us fans has been going on for a very long time. But when the local media doesn’t call them on it, who can blame them?
Well, I can… and in this case it’s BS!
By ex Braves fan
January 9, 2009 7:12 PM | Link to this
Who cares about the Atlanta Wrens. Let’s just talk music and BBQ…
Anyone heard the new Animal Collective record yet? I’m curious to hear any reviews as I wait for the CD release…
By RabidRascal
January 9, 2009 7:12 PM | Link to this
People need to understand that Smoltz would not be pitching until June. We need someone that can pitch right away.
By NJBraves
January 9, 2009 7:13 PM | Link to this
Ill explain it KC…Because Vazquez stinks…Kawakami is an unknown…Lowe is a #2 at best and Hanson is a baby. Is there potential? Absolutely. But that rotation is not good enough to win a tough division like the NL east.
By Atlantis Braves
January 9, 2009 7:13 PM | Link to this
Now that it’s a few days later, I still think Frank Wren made a huge mistake in not trying harder to retain Smoltz. If Smoltz bolted for the Red Sox with an equivalent offer (and I can believe that he might have done that), then I wouldn’t direct as much of my anger toward FW.
With those extra couple of million this year, the Braves would have been able to retain more of its luster to attract free agents and possibly gain some future benefits of stars (McCann, Hanson, Heyward, etc.) to stay longer on hometown discounts. We are hurting ourselves in the history book by letting Smoltz walk.
By DHD
January 9, 2009 7:14 PM | Link to this
I could live with:
Lowe Jurrjens Vasquez Campillo Hanson
Hudson if we’re in the hunt at the end of the season.
By Interested Observer
January 9, 2009 7:17 PM | Link to this
MLB Network is reporting that Mark Kotsay is going back to the Red Sox on a 1 year deal. Good for him!
By AZBravoFan
January 9, 2009 7:18 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB: Did Smoltz’s brief action last year earn him any kind of free agent ranking? In other words, do the Braves get any kind of draft pick for him?
By RabidRascal
January 9, 2009 7:18 PM | Link to this
People need to chill out a bit about the Bravos. We need pitchers who can pitch right away and Smoltz would not help until June. He is one of my favorite players. I just hope that we don’t overspend on Lowe. I think he would be a good addition but to bet the bank on him would be a mistake. Interesting to see how the tone has changed today compared to the last couple days. Our young players make me optimistic about our future. Anxious to see how they pan out. Man,it is cold up here. Deal with the cold up here and you would have a reason to be cranky!
By Shaun
January 9, 2009 7:21 PM | Link to this
If the Braves are to build a winning team, it will be with the likes of Brian McCann, Jason Heyward, Tommy Hanson, Jordan Schafer, Yunel Escobar, Kelly Johnson, Jair Jurrjens, etc. The days of Smoltz and Glavine leading the Braves to the playoffs are over.
By ncgary
January 9, 2009 7:21 PM | Link to this
well the braves losing my money isnt going to affect them that much. i usually made it at least to 1 or 2 games yearly with a date, this year no way jose. the pr debacle with smoltz , final straw . no matter how much baseball sense the move might make. it shows the callousness of the braves management team and what they think of atlanta fans. and from the look of the 2100 comments the last 36 hours, theres alot more people who spent alot more than i did , who feel the same. wren is a complete failure
By Chuck James was Solid until the 6th!!!
January 9, 2009 7:21 PM | Link to this
KC
I agree 100%. Those front four you name give you Atlanta a strong chance to win every night against any team and any opposing pitcher. Also, sky is the limit for Hanson and factor in a healthy Glavine and even Campillo. All are very solid options for the #5 spot. My theory is strong that if a rotation of an ace and 4 #4’s can win a World Series title then why can’t 2 #2’s and 3 #3’s??
Hamels, Myers, Moyer, Blanton/Eaton, Kendrick got the WS title in Philly
I’d take: Lowe, Jurrjens, Vazquez, Kawakami, Glavine/Campillo/Hanson over that any day.
By RC
January 9, 2009 7:21 PM | Link to this
KC,
If fans are truly turned off by the big spending ways of the Yankees, then it’s not showing up in revenues (for any team). Baseball is making more money that it ever has, and depsite a recession there are yet any signs that’s going to stop. If fans are REALLY turned off, they will quit spending money to go to games, in which situation spending will decrease for all team. Putting a salary cap in place at this point will do nothing but lower the expenses of the owners, while doing nothing to slow down their revenue streams. Through revenue sharing, for every extra $10 million the Yankees spend they are paying another $3 million (ballpark guess) to the other 29 teams in baseball. Not to mention, for all the complaining about “it’s time for a salary cap”, the Yankees are spending LESS this season than they did last season! If this is such a scourge, where was the outrage last year when they were spending even more money to finish 3rd?!
By NCBravesFan
January 9, 2009 7:26 PM | Link to this
NJ Braves Well said at 7:13, although I think Vazquez is merely middlin’, more so than a stinker.
I’ll say it again: of all the players you’d want to overpay to get, why would it be Derek Lowe? Makes no sense to me relative to the Braves short and long term goals.
By Chuck James was Solid until the 6th!!!
January 9, 2009 7:29 PM | Link to this
NJBraves
Your logic is not logical. See my previous post of the Phillies World Series rotation that blew Atlanta away last year and took the division, NL Champs, and WS champs.
Vazquez “stinks”? What are you 13? In MLB starting rotations Vazquez is nothing more and nothing less than a durable inning eater and strikeout machine. Lowe is a #2 at best? Check out his game log down the strecth last year for LA when they were in the West hunt. He pitched like a bonafide #1 Ace. Period.
Please enlighten us how the potential rotation KC proposed is inferior to the World Champion Phillies ‘08 starting 5 of, again” Hamels, Myers, Moyer, Eaton/Blanton, Kendrick.
By David O'Brien
January 9, 2009 7:35 PM | Link to this
AZBravoFan: Braves didn’t offer Smoltz arbitration, so no, they get nothing in compensation.
By Chuck James was Solid until the 6th!!!
January 9, 2009 7:43 PM | Link to this
NCBravesFan
You pay Lowe what it takes because he is a proven post season pitcher, a work horse who posts 200 innings every year with a mid to low 3 ERA with 32+ starts. Just marker him in and he goes deep into games and gives you 110% every inning of every game. That is why you pay Lowe what it takes. The Braves want to be competitive and with Lowe, Jurrjens, Vazquez, Campillo/Glavine/Hanson and hopefully Kawakami and a LF bat they will be very competitive barring an injury riddled duplicate of 2008.
What is a better option than Lowe this offseason on the Free Agent market? I don’t understand why people are so baffled that Lowe is commanding big money. He is very very very solid! A #2 if you have a Santana, Sabathia, Lincecum. He is a #1 if you don’t have that rare luxury.
Again, Lowe is a proven post season performer as well. How many post season wins do Sabathia and Burnett have with that $270 million? Exactly….
Would you rather Atlanta be drooling over Jon Garland, Randy Wolf, Oliver Perez right now? Burnett going to the Yankees was a blessing in disguise, Lowe is the warrior who puts his arse on the line and goes deep into games and leads the troops by example…Not too many guys out there like that… There is no getting around all of the high quality assets Lowe brings a club both tangible and untangible.
By Chuck James was Solid until the 6th!!!
January 9, 2009 7:46 PM | Link to this
Also NJBraves
What Jurrjens doesn’t exist in your world? Or is he a baby #5 that “stinks”?
By Terry
January 9, 2009 7:46 PM | Link to this
As David O’Brien said,”There’s a hole in the heart of Braves Nation!” John Smoltz will be greatly missed! Members of the team, who have been such a huge part of its history in Atlanta, deserve more respect! Hopefully, the same fate does not await Chipper. Management is sadly lacking in loyalty to both the team and fans.
By Mitchie-san
January 9, 2009 7:47 PM | Link to this
DOB Is Kawakami in Japan? Should we expect a late night annoucement since their daytime is our night time?
By James
January 9, 2009 7:49 PM | Link to this
So, what round do you think Hanson will go in fantasy baseball drafts? Because that is the really important question!
BTW, here is a link to a blog I just started. First blog is about Smoltz going to Boston and how the season might be over before it has even started for us!
http://coatestakeonsports.blogspot.com/
Let me know what you think.
By ncgary
January 9, 2009 7:54 PM | Link to this
the thing with smoltz is that he aint just planning on a 1 year swan song , the man wants 300 wins to go along with all the saves,and if the mayan calendar is wrong , he might just get them
anyone seen all the seismic activity going on around yellowstone. isnt there like a super volcano there
theoretically if a super volcanoe were to fully erupt the ash would blot out the sunlight and everything on earth would freeze. so much for global warming ey. lol
By BravesFanInRockies
January 9, 2009 7:56 PM | Link to this
Chuck James, etc.
Yup.
Lowe should command more than Burnett, who has pitched well only during his two salary drives. But he won’t, because AJ’s agent got the Yankees to panic.
Lowe has been consistently solid as a Dodger and by all indications, should provide more quality starts over his contract than AJ will over his.
By KC
January 9, 2009 7:59 PM | Link to this
Chuck James was Solid until the 6th!!!:
I think you could make a strong argument that Lowe is a #1 starter, not a #2.
His ERA over the past 4 seasons (averaged) has been in the mid 3.00 range. That’s borderline for someone you might call an “ace”. Irrefutable aces have ERA’s around or under 3.00.
However, Lowe did post and ace-like 3.24 ERA last year, and he excels in big games, which is certainly an important characteristic of an ace.
By Harrison Dangler
January 9, 2009 8:00 PM | Link to this
Really looks like the Braves ought to look at moving Chipper and McCann to the Red Sox since we are now their minor league club (see the KC A’s circa 1950’s for the Yankees). Perhaps they would consider a swap for Lowell, Bucholtz, and another young pitcher.
We really need to help the Red Sox out as the AL East is going to be tough for them this year.
The Braves will soon be the douchebags of majors, just like the 1970’s and most of the 80’s, so let’s not spoil Chippers final years. Also, McCann deserves to play for a winner and the Braves have proven themselves to be low class loser scum. Braves are so pathetic even the bottom feeding Met’s fans are avoiding the blog, as their is no point in kicking a putrifying and bloated dead horse corpse ouzing maggots.
By bill brasky
January 9, 2009 8:00 PM | Link to this
woo hoo, were getting close to getting mr. roboto…sign me up for season tickets
By BravesFanInRockies
January 9, 2009 8:02 PM | Link to this
ncgary,
Wow! You think Smoltz is good for six more years? It’ll take just about anybody that long to get 90 more wins, and that’s what he needs.
By NCBravesFan
January 9, 2009 8:06 PM | Link to this
Chuck James Lowe is not an ace - he is a solid, durable pitcher. Nothing more, nothing less. He would be a nice addition - but five years at a premium price? And a contract that would expire at age 40?
Don’t think that kind of commitment is worth it for the chance that the Braves might contend in 2009.
Given all that’s happened, I’d rather the Braves take their lumps this year and look for players that can come to them via trade or in a more favorable market environment.
By David O'Brien
January 9, 2009 8:08 PM | Link to this
Mitchie-San, I hope it’s real late if it’s tonight, because I’m gonna be out of pocket for next few hours. Going to see Five Eight and the Young Antiques at Smith’s tonight, plus a dude from the AJC who plays guitar or something is playing downstairs in the Atlanta room (no, its not me).
By smokey
January 9, 2009 8:13 PM | Link to this
The local TV should look at some tapes of Lowe’s wife. If she’s any good then WSB or one of the others could send her a note that if her husband signs with ATL then they would like to talk to her.
I’ve got an odd feeling that no matter what we offer Lowe the Mets will top it and we’ll get screwed again.
By j.t
January 9, 2009 8:14 PM | Link to this
dob have you heard if kenshin kawakami has sign with the braves 3yrs 24 mill. i saw it on wiki .thanks
By smartBBguy
January 9, 2009 8:18 PM | Link to this
Ok guys Smoltz is gone, i hate it myself, but its time to move on to whats at hand. THE PRESENT/FUTURE- Now we know that the Phils and Muts have powerful line-ups, have great bullpens, but their starting pitchers go only 2 1/2 deep at most. remember good pitching stops a good offense. Now the Braves can match each bullpen, but if we can get 2 [Lowe, Sheets, Kawakami, Perez, Pett, or trade for Peavy/ Holliday} and add them to JJ, Vazquez, (Hanson, Glavine, Campo) we will have the pitching to stay very close, with Hudson coming back towards the end. Also, remember the Astros stayed in the race with good pitching and little offense. If our starters can keep the games close enough, and our bullpen we can win those 3-2 games we lost last year. If we can have a chance every night, we will contend. Also, we got hit hard with the injury bug last year and the Phills and Muts didn’t, so just maybe things could swing our way this year. I say fill the rotation out first, then hitters will be wanting to come here to help out maybe lower their prices a bit. With all the big teams rosters just about set, Fa’s are looking for the next wave of contenting teams. So if u are a real BRAVES FAN, A lot of things are going to fall into our laps, gotta believe, the season havent started yet!!! WE STILL HAVE TIME TO MAKE IT RIGHT over 150 players still left in FA.
By cmac1919
January 9, 2009 8:18 PM | Link to this
“Huh?? A prospect is less promising because of the organization he plays for???”
No, it’s the fact that the organization hasn’t had a good pitching prospect who didn’t end up being a bust in years (not counting Wainwright).
The likes of Kyle Davies, Anthony Lerew, and JoJo Reyes were all “promising” also and look what they’re doing in the majors. So forgive me if I’m not hopping up and down and deeming Hanson a future HoF-er yet. I’m not at all betting on Hanson being a bust(because I’m pretty sure he’s not going to be. I was actually glad that he wasn’t traded for Peavy) but I’m still keeping in mind that he’s just a prospect and it’s always 50/50.
By uga-brave
January 9, 2009 8:19 PM | Link to this
1996 world series is on the mlb channel now.
By BravesFanInRockies
January 9, 2009 8:21 PM | Link to this
Lowe is not an ace - he is a solid, durable pitcher. Nothing more, nothing less. NCBravesFan
Beg to differ. His career ERA is 0.8 runs below league average, his career WHIP is 1.268 (and was a remarkable 1.133 last year). His K/BB ratio last year was Maddux-like.
He gets people out. He pitches a ton of innings. And as I’ve said here several times, he doesn’t have the wear and tear of other 35-y.o.s because he pitched in the bullpen for a couple of seasons mid-career.
He’s at least at Hudson level, if not better.
And he’ll be cheaper than AJ Burnett.
What’s not to like?
By Chuck James was Solid until the 6th!!!
January 9, 2009 8:21 PM | Link to this
DOB
Get the heck outta here man, go enjoy yourself you deserve it man after all that Smoltz “carnage”. See ya’ll later.
By Tomas
January 9, 2009 8:23 PM | Link to this
Kenshin Kawakami, and Derek Lowe. I hope so. I also hope for an outfielder Bobby Abreu, or Adam Dunn. But if the Braves sign both Kawakami and Lowe, I doubt they would have enough money to sign Abreu or Dunn.
Nick Swisher could be a good fit, but he isn’t exactly cheap. He has 3yrs 21 million left on his contract. And Nady, is just a one year rental. Jermaine Dye isn’t cheap either 11.5 million per year. I would rather explore the possibility of signing Abreu instead. By the way how much money will Kawakami earn?
By Efrim
January 9, 2009 8:23 PM | Link to this
j.t.
dob have you heard if kenshin kawakami has sign with the braves 3yrs 24 mill. i saw it on wiki .thanks
I saw that too, but considering Uehara just got two years and 10 million, 3 for 24 seems a bit excessive.
By Iron Labrum
January 9, 2009 8:23 PM | Link to this
Nice song * DOB* …tried to post this earlier and almost lost it to the crash…copied it first because I’ve lost two posts this week to sinking blogs
While I’ll concede that Wren might be doing OK from a purely Xs and Os standpoint (in other words if his job was really a game of monopoly played in a vacuum)… the offseason had been a series of PR gaffes before Wednesday and that affects the bottom line and that in turn affects his performance review.
First he was talking to the media, then he wasn’t because when he was talking maybe he said too much. Then Smoltz drops the bombshell the same day Lowe comes to town. Then his comments to the Smoltz situation IMO were a little off(the “aging stars” line was a little dismissive(maybe even spiteful) and was in no way lost on Chipper).
Let’s face it… perception is reality and a lot of people think bad things have happened since Wren took over. I’ve personally been on board with him move for move up until Smoltz…. but guys, this was a huge misstep. I know last year was tough. I agree we shouldn’t pin all our hopes on him but this was a deal much bigger than the balance sheet.
The Braves I’m sure(I hope) will come out fine(eventually) and games will be played and won. Chipper will one day be gone and new players will fill the void. I have my doubts however that Mr. Wren will be the GM when next the Braves finish first…he may not even make it to the end of Liberty Media’s ownership.
I think this fiasco is going to cost the Braves much more than $3M and I think Frank may not make it to see the moves he’s made pay dividends.
By Chuck James was Solid until the 6th!!!
January 9, 2009 8:24 PM | Link to this
uga-brave
You are an evil man. As if this wasn’t all of our darkest days and you dare mention we can watch the 1996 WS recap? That is evil…
What do you have a station we can watch Smoltz being introduced in his brand new Red Sox jersey too?
By P** off Braves Fan
January 9, 2009 8:24 PM | Link to this
**Poor little John Smoltz couldn’t handle 5 million a year for 60 days on the roster. That is F——— BS. I applaud Wren and the Braves for looking out for the TEAM.
Chipper, you’ve always sacrificed for this team…but you are dead wrong son. I, the FAN, ultimately pay your F——— ridiculous salary, and more threats like that…and I’ll stop watching you overpaid crybabies. Let the ratings fall and the crowds dwindle…I would love that at this point…especially with the economy the way it is. Millions of folks are struggling to keep jobs right now, but they still go and dish out hundreds of dollars to watch you guys lose.
To all MLB athletes, just keep up your spoiled ways…one day you might be happy making 200k if this keeps up.**
By Drew
January 9, 2009 8:24 PM | Link to this
Trade 8 city blocks of Atlanta (the Georgia dome area) and Jair Jurrjens for Grady Sizemore..
DONE!
By Gary82
January 9, 2009 8:25 PM | Link to this
theres no reason to believe wikipedia
By Mitchie-san
January 9, 2009 8:25 PM | Link to this
Me too, DOB. I would like to get Kawakami on the team….
I wouldnt want to be in Wren’s shoes about now. No matter what moves he makes from here on out, they are gonna get criticized so bad from the fans (unless its a blow-our-socks-off deal). Personally, it is gonna take alot for me to trust him with this team. I wonder if he is working overtime to get a big, blockbuster deal to save face with the fans. Wishful thinking?
How do you think he feels, DOB. Is he holding his head high, satisfied that loosing Smoltz was the right thing to do? Or is he behind closed doors, with his fingers crossed?
By Mr. Plow
January 9, 2009 8:26 PM | Link to this
I have a couple of questions for the denizens out here:
If we were unable to guarantee more than $2.5M to Smoltz for health concerns, why did we offer $4M to Mike “Strained Uterus” Hampton? Maybe this is what Smoltz found insulting.
How can Dunn in the outfield be any worse than Ryan Klesko?
By LTBravesFan
January 9, 2009 8:28 PM | Link to this
Kelly finished 5th amoung 2nd basemen in number of errors with 14. Number 3 on that list had 13. I think only 3 of those were after the All-Star Break
This was enough attempts to qualify for gold glove tho.
Not just the last 20 gms or so but after the all-star break Kelly hit .308
By NC Braves fan
January 9, 2009 8:33 PM | Link to this
OK…I really like mlbtraderumors.com….but all it ever seems to have is OTHER TEAMS signing people. Can we sign somebody??? And not Dunn…..a temporary career .250 hitter in left isn’t a solution….
By J.D.
January 9, 2009 8:33 PM | Link to this
P* Braves Fan**, hate to tell you, Liberty Media pays the salaries for Atlanta, not me and you. I applaud Chipper for sticking up and showing the Braves front office that the disrepect showed to Smoltz was wrong.
By ChrisfromSacramento
January 9, 2009 8:39 PM | Link to this
This is just sick. Wren jump of a freeway overpass.
To show a player like Smoltz that kind of disrespect looks so bad. Chipper should walk in and say you are fired.
If Chipper does not end his career as a Brave im done with this damm team. Wren go to Hell!
By ncgary
January 9, 2009 8:41 PM | Link to this
bfir i was being facetious to an extent, but sure ya know smoltz thinks he can pitch til hes 50, and if anyone pitching today can , its probably him, i saw my dad pitch in an industrial fast pitch softball game when he was 50 and he damn near struck out everyone in the game, me i cant throw 75 mph.
looks like the muts signed redding to a 1 year deal
By P** off Braves Fan
January 9, 2009 8:42 PM | Link to this
Mr. Plow,
At this point…I don’t care how insulted Smoltz feels. I feel insulted for dishing out my money and time to follow the Braves for almost three decades now only to see one WS championship. The dude was going to get 5 million for being on the roster for 60 days! If that is the case, maybe I’ll rethink my loyalty as well. Hmmm…
By Jimmy
January 9, 2009 8:46 PM | Link to this
Three years and 24 million for an unknown japanese pitcher?
By P** off Braves Fan
January 9, 2009 8:49 PM | Link to this
J.D…you are soooooo wrong! It would take a few years, but once fans stopped paying attention to MLB and ratings drop, Liberty Media would have no choice but to drop their team like a hot potato. Whose side are you on anyway? And How is 5 million for 60 days on the roster disrespectul? I’d rather use that money to stock up for the future…not mortgage the future?!!? It has been fun watching Smoltz…but the guy is falling apart! Obviously, Smoltz has no problem walking away from the Braves, so I have no problem seeing him go…bye bye Smoltz!
By Johnny B
January 9, 2009 8:49 PM | Link to this
DOB Thank you for the new blog! I know its kept you busy trying to keep one up and running for more than 12 hours! I’m sure some kind of unofficial record has been set for blog crashing in the past few days!
Who says Braves fans have no passion for their team!
I’m done with the Smoltz debacle, whats done is done and I wish him godspeed! Hope he gets another chance on the big stage and another WS ring…he deserves it.
DOB I am curious as to where you think the market is at this point for Dunn and Abreu. Do you think Dunn would take a 2 year deal at 20 million? Would Abreu consider a 1 year deal at say 8 to 10 million with maybe a club option for a second with a 1 million buyout?
Nady would be OK for a 1 year rental provided we didn’t give up to much….JoJo and maybe 1 low level player would be my max.
Seriously doubt the Yanks would do that, they could probably get more at the trade deadline if they were inclined to try to get something out of him. If he’s playing great and they’re in contention they just play him out and let him walk next year .
I still like Ludwick better than Ankiel in a trade but not at the price of giving up Gonzo! Doesn’t Ankiel become a FA next year? and Boras is his agent?
By KC
January 9, 2009 8:50 PM | Link to this
cmac919: I asked you “A prospect is less promising because of the organization he plays for???”
And you responded…
“No, it’s the fact that the organization hasn’t had a good pitching prospect who didn’t end up being a bust in years (not counting Wainwright).”
I feel as though you just contradicted himself. You told me that you don’t consider a prospect less promising because of the organization he plays for… but then you said “it’s the fact that this organization…
Does the organization a pitcher plays for have any impact on his potential? It either does or it doesn’t.
If you’re simply saying that we count our chickens before they hatch, I would agree with you. But this kid is definitely more likely than not to be a high quality big league pitcher.
I think if you were to talk to anyone in the Braves organization, they would tell you that they haven’t seen a talent like this in a long time. He’s in an entirely different category from other quality prospects (as they were considered to be) that have come through in recent years.
None of them dominated to the degree that Hanson has.
By RC
January 9, 2009 8:52 PM | Link to this
What is sick is anyone that suggests someone take their life because they disagree with decisions they’ve made related to a baseball team. I love baseball and the Braves as much as anyone, but if it means THAT much to you, you might need to seek professional help.
By 18 Wheels of Love
January 9, 2009 8:55 PM | Link to this
Wasn’t Smoltz ‘healthy’ going into last season? The same season he made 14m and pitched 28 innings?
If so, I understand the Braves concerns about offering Smoltz a lot of money coming off of his 5th surgery. Wren played it correctly, the Sox just had more disposable income.
Just like Glavine, Smoltz will look back and wish he had stayed in Atlanta.
By Billy Walsh
January 9, 2009 8:55 PM | Link to this
A salary cap in baseball will never happen. The all and mighty mlb players union will never allow that to happen. And it shouldnt happen. The hated Yankees pay millions to teams like the royals (revenue sharing). Some mlb teams dont use the money for payroll. Thats not the Yankees fault. The system in place is not broken. Look at the past world series winners in the last 10 years. Signing big named free agents doesnt guarentee a championship. Maybe if the braves drew 4.3 million fans a year like the yankees did..it would be different.
By KC
January 9, 2009 8:59 PM | Link to this
NCBravesFan: “[Lowe] is a solid, durable pitcher. Nothing more, nothing less.”
Respectfully, that’s what you call a counter-factual argument.
As DOB pointed out, he was 14-11 with a 3.24 ERA in 211 innings this year, including 6-1 with a 1.27 ERA in his last 10 starts. Lowe posted a lower ERA than Brandon Webb, Dan Haren, and a couple others who are largely considered to be “aces”. And over the past 4 years (since moving to NL), his ERA has been a very strong 3.58.
What’s more, he’s posted a 3.33 post-season ERA over 83.2 October innings. Obviously, in the post-season, you’re playing the best teams in baseball, and there are many “aces” that can’t boast a post-season ERA that good.
You could argue that an ERA in the low to mid 3.00 range isn’t quite the ERA of an ace… but if it’s not, it’s pretty damned close these days. Lowe is very commensurate in both style and production to Tim Hudson. So at the very least, if we sign him, we replace what we lost with Hudson’s injury (and there’s a great chance of having them BOTH in the rotation for 2010 and beyond).
We could have a very well reasoned debate as to whether Lowe is a legitimate #1 starter, or just a very strong #2… but there’s no way he’s “nothing more than a solid, durable pitcher”. That description might fit Vazquez (depending on whether we get the 07 or 08 version of Vazquez)… but it doesn’t fit Lowe. He’s better than the way you describe him. Much better.
By proeye
January 9, 2009 9:03 PM | Link to this
DOB great comments but seems like just a “filler” blog today since nothing has happened—there really isn’t any “new” news unfortunately.
Hah, after the “Furcal Incident”, I’ll believe Kamakazi is a Brave when management has a press conference and puts a hat on him and says, we’ve signed him! ;-)
Derek Lowe spending 5 hours in Atlanta means absolutely ZERO. I don’t care if we flew him to the moon and back for free and had him spend 5 hours at the playboy mansion. It means absolutely nothing given that $$$ mean everything to any Boras client. Gee, think it would have been easier to just spend 2 minutes with him, just long enough to hand him a proposal with big fat zeros all over it?
Obviously spending 20 years in Atlanta didn’t convince John Smoltz to stay one more season. So please, for god’s sake, give a player a CONVINCING argument to stay with your open wallet!
I hope management doesn’t embarrass the heck out of the Braves Nation once again with a subpar offer to Lowe. Come on, they could have raised their offers to every single one of our losing efforts.
I’m going to say it again, “If you don’t have the balls to play with the big boys, then don’t even get in the game.” Does anyone remember the old slogan in Atlanta: If we want ‘em we get ‘em? What happened???
By JR
January 9, 2009 9:05 PM | Link to this
Let me get this straight, you are willing to pay Mike Hampton $7-10 to sit on his BUTT for 2 straight years, but you are willing to open to checkbook for the franchises best pitcher ever and the most loyal team member in Atlanta history. Pathetic, Wren, you SUX! Why is anyone want to come here when they see how we treat a class act like Smoltzie, I dont blame man, go win another ring, you deserve it.
Wake up Braves, you better start paying what you need to pay or we are returning to the 80s.
By YankeeDawg
January 9, 2009 9:06 PM | Link to this
Five Eight, wished I could find a copy of their first album, I learned Shut Up somewhere, surprised its not on itunage. How was the show?
By KC
January 9, 2009 9:07 PM | Link to this
cmac919: I meant to say… “If you’re simply saying that we CAN’T count our chickens…”
By KC
January 9, 2009 9:10 PM | Link to this
proeye: “Derek Lowe spending 5 hours in Atlanta means absolutely ZERO.”
Yes it does. It means that the Braves are being legitimately considered by Lowe, or he and his agent wouldn’t have spent a day in Atlanta.
It certainly doesn’t mean that he’s leaning toward ATL over New York, but I would bet that his visit here does mean Atlanta is one of a handful of finalists for his services.
By A-ville Ranger
January 9, 2009 9:15 PM | Link to this
Marty Robbins songs are some of my first memories of music.Tunes like Devil Woman,Almost Persuaded,Have I told you lately that I love,etc along with many Jim Reeves,Kitty Wells,Tex Ritter,Patsy Kline,Hank and many other old school country artist was my musical world till I got old enough to listen to radio on my own.
I still have a fondness for many of those songs but reading DOB’s posted lyrics of Marty’s ‘Big Iron’ I can’t help but hear a Who…I mean Boris Karloff’s voice with it’s amazing lilting drone.
By SoWeGa Fanatic
January 9, 2009 9:23 PM | Link to this
From Ken Rosenthal column
*Brave new world — without Smoltz For all the finger-pointing in the wake of Smoltz’s signing with the Red Sox, the Braves will look much smarter if Smoltz proves incapable of pitching regularly.
Few Braves fans want to hear it; they think of Smoltz as the Smoltz of old, not a 41-year-old physical risk. And betting against Smoltz, as always, is a dangerous proposition.
But this divorce, like so many others of this kind, was unnecessary.
The difference in the Red Sox’s and Braves’ offers was $3 million. The difference in the Padres’ and Brewers’ offers for Hoffman was $2 million. The Braves, Padres and other teams blow similar amounts regularly.
Smoltz’s career earnings, meanwhile, exceed $130 million, according to baseball-reference.com. Hoffman has earned nearly $67 million. But you guessed it — respect was a greater issue than money for both future Hall of Famers.
To many, even if Braves general manager Frank Wren is right about Smoltz, he’s wrong for alienating a franchise player. Ditto for the Padres, who refused to even meet with Hoffman.
These things are never easy, and in the end, neither side looks good.
Trevor Hoffman should be a Padre. John Smoltz should be a Brave.*
By Salty Dawg
January 9, 2009 9:25 PM | Link to this
KC
proeye: “Derek Lowe spending 5 hours in Atlanta means absolutely ZERO.”
Yes it does. It means that the Braves are being legitimately considered by Lowe, or he and his agent wouldn’t have spent a day in Atlanta.
It certainly doesn’t mean that he’s leaning toward ATL over New York, but I would bet that his visit here does mean Atlanta is one of a handful of finalists for his services.
I hate to break it to you, but it is just as likely (or more) that Bora$$ is allowing the Braves to court Lowe to drive up the offers from other teams. If the Mets think the Braves have a chance and the really want Lowe, then Bora$$ has more leverage over them. I’m sure they don’t want to see him playing for a division rival, so the time spent in Atlanta could very well be a ploy by Bora$$.
By Efrim
January 9, 2009 9:28 PM | Link to this
Braves close to deal with Kawakami
http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/01/bravesnearingkawakamideala.html
Let’s hope it is for nothing near three years and 24 million.
By proeye
January 9, 2009 9:29 PM | Link to this
I’m really not sure what to make of Lowe…
He was a pretty good reliever in Boston and he had one really good season as a starter. But then he had one so-so season with an ERA of 4.47 and a terrible season where he had an ERA of 5.42 in Beantown and that’s when he left for L.A. His stats in La La Land were good but he only averaged 13.5 wins with 12 losses, and he had an ERA over 4.00 on the road for his 4 years there. I hardly think he is a candidate to be anyone’s ace.
Guess he could be if has another spectacular 2002 season where he won 21 games and had an ERA of 2.58. Doubt it is going to happen though.
Not sure why no one has mentioned this… Once Smoltz hits the mound in Boston, that little stat that said that he was one of three pitchers to win 20 and save 40, will take on new meaning, since all three pitchers pitched in Beantown at some point in their careers.
Now go back and read that last paragraph in your best Vin Scully imitation. ;-)
By Eric from MO
January 9, 2009 9:33 PM | Link to this
RC responding to your 6:39 post, Gorky’s Hernandez is not a mid-level prospect. He is one of our top prospects and you dont trade him for a decent player, which is all Nady is. I doubt Nady will be a Type-A Free Agent. Will probably be a Type-B.
By Salty Dawg
January 9, 2009 9:34 PM | Link to this
By proeye
…Derek Lowe spending 5 hours in Atlanta means absolutely ZERO. I don’t care if we flew him to the moon and back for free and had him spend 5 hours at the playboy mansion. It means absolutely nothing given that $$$ mean everything to any Boras client. Gee, think it would have been easier to just spend 2 minutes with him, just long enough to hand him a proposal with big fat zeros all over it? I hope management doesn’t embarrass the heck out of the Braves Nation once again with a subpar offer to Lowe. Come on, they could have raised their offers to every single one of our losing efforts. I’m going to say it again, “If you don’t have the balls to play with the big boys, then don’t even get in the game.” Does anyone remember the old slogan in Atlanta: If we want ‘em we get ‘em? What happened???
I agree completely. I play poker quite a bit and a few times this off season I’ve noted the similarities between poker and negotiating, e.g. not tipping your hand. Well in poker, sometimes you have to make a ballsy play when you are short stacked and on the ropes. Sometimes you just have to make a power play and push all in. This is starting to look like one of those times for the Braves. They definitely cannot afford to go into the season without signing a Lowe or trading for a comparable pitcher to lead the rotation. The also cannot afford any more embarrassing PR disasters, which low balling Lowe and being shunned again would certainly be.
By proeye
January 9, 2009 9:39 PM | Link to this
Come on, 5 hours in Atlanta means absolutely ZERO. Go ahead and have your fantasy but for me, I’ve been brow beaten too many times this off season.
Sure, Peavy likes Atlanta. He was from Alabama you know. Furcal enjoyed working under Cox. Smoltz was a guaranty to stay in Atlanta because of his long association with the team.
Shall I go on?
If the offer does not measure up, forget about Lowe coming to Atlanta. It is just that simple.
On another note… Speaking of X player’s dog used to pee on this tree in Atlanta every time they played here…
You know the writers have got to stop with the interesting associations because all it does is excite fans into thinking that these stories have some merit (I’m not talking about the 5 hours). I can make up all kinds of associations about me in all 50 states, but does it mean that this player is considering coming to that location because of it?
By KC
January 9, 2009 9:41 PM | Link to this
proeye: Sometimes pitchers evolve. Just look at a guy like Chris Carpenter.
Since moving to the NL 4 years ago, his ERA has been 3.58. Four years is a pretty darn good sample size, so I think you can throw out his career year back in Boston AND the year he had an ERA well over 4.00.
He’s been a model of consistency year in and year out over the last 4 years. And whether or not you want to call him an “ace”, he’s certainly a top-of-rotation starter… a #1 or #2 starter.
Without question.
By DCbrave
January 9, 2009 9:42 PM | Link to this
Really DCrave? Please explain to me why Lowe/Jurrjens/Vazquez/Kawakami/Hanson wouldn’t likely be an excellent rotation - KC
Really, KC? You cann’t see why that rotation likely is not an excellent rotation?
First of all, I realize that excellent is a relative term and the bar therefor will definitely be different for you and me. But even for a relatively low bar, this rotation of yours cannot be classified as an excellent rotation, at best a good one.
For a rotation’s ace, who will be 36 in June, has pitched in the majors for 12 years, and has a career ERA of 3.74, I would have to stretch it, and barely classfy him as an ace, but defintely not an excellent ace.
For a #2 in a rotation, who has only one year of major league pitching experience with a record of 13-10 and an ERA of 3.68, and really has not proved himself yet, I would definitely say he had a good or even excellent rookie year, but as a #2 in a rotation? OK or good, but definitely not excellent. Have you forgotten the good or even excellent rookie years of the likes of Horacio Ramirez, Kyle Davies and Chuck James, and their not so good or even bad second years?
Now, for a #3 in a rotation, who has an ERA of 4.67 last year and a career ERA of 4.32, do you need me to tell you whether he is an excellent #3? Good one, maybe.
As to Kawakami, he will be 34 in June, has pitched for 11 years in Japan, and has pitched only 117 innings last year, I would be fine with him as my #4, but an excellent #4? Not sure because not sure how many innings he could pitch per game in the major given his special situations in Japan.
Now Hanson, regardless of how high his prospect status in the Braves organization, for someone who’s never pitched above A team, I would be completely pleased if he could make it to the team and be a decent #5. An excellent #5? Do you know?
So, for a rotation that does not have an excellent ace, excellent#2, excellent#3, excellent#4, nor an excellent #5, and with no many unkowns and so much uncertainly, where do you get that excellent rotation?
By Steve from OH
January 9, 2009 9:46 PM | Link to this
Efrim, can you re-post that link please?
By Steve from OH
January 9, 2009 9:48 PM | Link to this
Efrim, disregard that. I’ve got it.
By Eric from MO
January 9, 2009 9:52 PM | Link to this
Salty Dawg you may be right. Boras may be using the Braves as leverage. However, somebody mentioned this much earlier, for once it may be a good thing that Lowe is represented by Boras because we all know Boras takes the most guarenteed money. Doesnt matter if his client enjoys playing there, or if he has home there, it only about how much green that team is offering. So if the Braves want him, they can get him.
However, with Wren as our GM we probably wont get it done. I have never heard of a GM being this bad at getting deals done. I supported him up til the whole Smoltz thing but how can you not finish that deal.
By j.t
January 9, 2009 9:54 PM | Link to this
any new rumors out there?
By DCbrave
January 9, 2009 9:54 PM | Link to this
proeye: Derek Lowe spending 5 hours in Atlanta means absolutely ZERO
KC: Yes it does. It means that the Braves are being legitimately considered by Lowe, or he and his agent wouldn’t have spent a day in Atlanta
Oh yeah KC? If he would not legitimately consider a team, why would he go to visit it in the first place regardless how many hours he may spend? Assuming arguento he did want to visit a team but did not want to legitimatley consider that team for whatever reasons KC’s mind can imagine, do you really know how many hours he did and should spend? Do you really know it should be fewer than 5 hours?
Frankly I’am simply amused by your sitting here all day long and answering everybody’s questions as if you had an answer for everything. You might consider spending sometime doing some research first.
By uga-brave
January 9, 2009 9:56 PM | Link to this
saltydawg,
if you cant figure out who the fish is at the table in 10 minutes it is usually you.
so it goes for smilin frank.
yesterday was the cumlative effect of a failed off season.
losing smoltz no doubt was a big blow to franchise, but i think all of the “hate frank,” stuff has been building for a while.
never be the man after THE MAN. tough two days for smilin frank.
By raymond
January 9, 2009 9:57 PM | Link to this
Does anyone think that Boras/Lowe are doing the same thing Furcal did. Once he gets us to bid higher than the Mets he takes that to other teams and gets them to go higher.
By Efrim
January 9, 2009 9:57 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH
Not sure why it doesn’t post for me. Anyways, I really hope it isn’t for too much. Japanese pitchers are tricky. I like Kuroda, so if he is similar to him, I’ll be pretty happy.
By Steve from OH
January 9, 2009 10:04 PM | Link to this
Efrim, I too hope that the contract doesn’t exceed 6-7MM/year. From what video I’ve seen of Kawakami, he’s got a straight fastball and good movement of his breaking stuff, and excellent command. Love the command and movement, don’t really like the straight 90MPH fastball, though. He’s probably a #4. If we can get a full season of a 4.00ish ERA out of him, that would be great.
By NCBravesFan
January 9, 2009 10:06 PM | Link to this
KC Respectfully, Lowe’s stats last year were significantly below his career numbers, and largely based on those last ten starts of 2008. He hasn’t had a Cy Young type season — his only such season really — in quite a few years. Solid and durable, bu not an ace.
He’s a 2 or 3 in my book on most staffs (depending on the depth and quality of the staff in question). He’s the kind of guy that’s going to keep you in games and rack up innings - and that’s a good thing.
But I don’t think Derek Lowe is the long-term, expensive answer to the short-term problem facing the Braves. And that’s my point.
By proeye
January 9, 2009 10:12 PM | Link to this
DCBrave… Let’s face it… This K C guy is obviously a Braves fanatic. It is one thing to be a normal fan, but obviously this guy overlooks everything and just projects the Braves to be #1 every time, every year, no matter what happens. Fanatic means “fanatically to the extreme” in this case.
I completely agree with your post.
If you ask me if we get Kawakami and Lowe, that means we have an entire rotation made up of #3 starters. Isn’t that bizarre? ;-)
And where are we going to our lefthander? Is Tommy Glavine going to fill that roll as the fifth starter? What about Hanson when he comes up? Then what about Glavine? Where does he fit in? How about Huddy? He may be ready at the end of next season.
But I suppose as they say… You can never have too much pitching…
2010: Hudson Jurrjens Lowe Vasquez Hanson Kawakami
What if Hanson blows everyone away? What if Hudson comes back 100% by opening day? What if Jurrjens realizes his potential? What if Lowe puts forth one of his best efforts (it is possible)? What if Vasquez blossoms in the National League and really enjoys playing for his favorite team?
NOW KC, THIS IS THE DEFINITION OF AN “EXCELLENT” ROTATION.
Now all we have to do is actually sign Lowe and Kawakami. At this point I’m pushing in all my chips and going for broke that the Braves are actually going to do something THIS TIME. ;-)
(I have just about resigned myself to be a Red Sox fan from now on… )
By 35YearBravesFan
January 9, 2009 10:14 PM | Link to this
I don’t blame Wren at all. I’m disappointed in Smoltz. I didn’t think he had that kind of an attitude…
Let’s rebuild. Bring on the youngsters.
GO BRAVES!!!!
By Efrim
January 9, 2009 10:15 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH
I agree. Japanese pitchers can be tricky. We’ll see. I’m just happy to be adding someone, even if he is a fourth starter.
By Eric from MO
January 9, 2009 10:17 PM | Link to this
DCBrave and all you others who think that Lowe, JJ, Vazquez,Kawakami, and Hanson would not be a great rotation, try not to be narrow minded. You still remember Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz way too much. That will never happen again.
You refer to Lowe and Vazquez’s ERA way too much. There are other factors you must consider. Lowe could easily post an ERA under 3.5 and Vazquez could easily post one under 4. I know you are going to throw Vazquez’s past’s ERA but remember that he had one under 4 last year til Ozzie Guillen started believeing he had C.C. Sababathia and started throwing Vazquez on three days rest repeatedly. Back to what I was saying Lowe’s ERA in the low 3’s with 200 innings is not bad. Better than most teams number 1’s. You cant deny that he isnt a workhorse and Vazquez with an ERA with under 4 with 200 innings is damn good as the number 3 pitcher. I dare you find 3 other teams that have that. I doubt you could find one or two other teams that have that. You have to remember we didnt have one pitcher with 200 innings last year and now we will have two (if we sign Lowe).
As for JJ, yeah he has only had one rookie season, but it was good. Up til September his ERA was under 3.5. He got tired like all rookie pitchers do and there is no way you can compare him to Chuck James. James had two decent pitches. James was never considered than a bottom of the rotation guy. JJ has far better stuff.
Then we get to the Jap. Yeah he will pretty much be a 5-6 inning pitcher, but he will leave us in a position to win each game. Now a days that is all you can ask for from a number 4 pitcher. This is what makes Vazquez and Lowe so big. They will give the bullpen rest on their days so they will be good for days our number 4 and 5 pitchers go. By the way our pen is stacked. If Kawakami goes 6, then we have Moylan, Soriano, and Gonzo. Thats bout as lights out as a pen gets.
There is plenty of reason to believe Hanson can also be as good as JJ was last year.
Dont forget if we are in it, we may have Hudson back in September. Also this rotation would also be set for 2010 too. So even if we dont make it next year, I think we will contend but fall short, we only have to make a few minor tweeks for 2010. I have said all off-season that I believe it would take two years for the Braves to make it back to the playoffs and contend for a World Series title.
By Nostradamus
January 9, 2009 10:23 PM | Link to this
ncgary @ 7:54
Go four or five years on Lowe and if that Mayan calendar thing kicks in take the tax write off.
By Dixie Dawg
January 9, 2009 10:27 PM | Link to this
I have a feeling that if the Lowe and Kamikame signings fall through (and I hope they don’t) that Frank Wren’s own family will get the UHaul truck ready…
By Salty Dawg
January 9, 2009 10:28 PM | Link to this
uga-brave
saltydawg,
if you cant figure out who the fish is at the table in 10 minutes it is usually you.
Truer words were never spoken.
so it goes for smilin frank.
It’s sure looking that way so far this off season. But as the saying goes, fool me once shame on you…Maybe Wren learned a valuable lesson from the Furcal experience. Baptized by fire so to speak.
yesterday was the cumlative effect of a failed off season.
I’ll tell you what, the more I think about it the more I think the Braves were ready and willing to let Smoltz leave. I think they decided long ago how much they would offer him and decided not to increase that figure even though Smoltz was showing great progress. Honestly, I just don’t understand it because we’ve all been told they have money to spend and it was only a one year deal. Even if the worst case scenario happened they would only be out a few million and they would have kept the fans happy. Guess that doesn’t matter though.
losing smoltz no doubt was a big blow to franchise, but i think all of the “hate frank,” stuff has been building for a while.
Personally I was in Wren’s corner before the Smoltz mess. I don’t think the previous failures were within his control, but looking at the off season as a whole I can only describe it as a disaster, regardless of what happens from here on out.
never be the man after THE MAN. tough two days for smilin frank.
Yep. Another poker analogy - always make sure you are sitting at the right table position.
By KC
January 9, 2009 10:31 PM | Link to this
NCBravesFan:
OVER THE LAST 4 YEARS (SINCE MOVING TO THE NL) LOWE HAS POSTED A 3.58 ERA.
There was nothing out of the ordinary or career-year-like about his performance last season. Very much in line with what he had done the previous 3 years. A little better than the previous 3, but certainly in the same neighborhood.
Please don’t bring up what he did as a reliever, or 7 years ago in Boston. For 4 years straight Lowe has posted ERAs in the 3.00s.
The numbers have been remarkably steady for 4 straight years. Any attempt to make last year seem like some sort of fortunate aberration just doesn’t hold water.
By DCbrave
January 9, 2009 10:32 PM | Link to this
proeye: Liked your post at 10:12pm. As to this KC guy, somebody on this blog yesterday jokingly said he was sent to represent Schuerholz/Wren because KC stands for Kansas City. All joking aside, I just wish he could sufficiently support what he says and does not pretend he knows everything.
By Eric from MO
January 9, 2009 10:40 PM | Link to this
For all the people out there who say Lowe at best is a number 2 pitcher I decided to list all the teams that will have a number 1 pitcher worse than Derrick Lowe next season. Oakland, Texas, Anaheim, Detriot, Kansas City, White Sox, Twins, Baltimore, Dodgers, Colorado, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Reds, Milwaukee, Washington, and Florida. That is 16 teams out of the 29 other teams that dont have an ace as good as Lowe. There is also another few teams that I didnt include that you could argue that Lowe is better than their number 1 too. So 16 out of 29, so yeah I do believe he is a number 1.
By KC
January 9, 2009 10:46 PM | Link to this
DCbrave: “Frankly I’am simply amused by your sitting here all day long and answering everybody’s questions as if you had an answer for everything. You might consider spending sometime doing some research first.”
Well, my kids were sick and I’ve been home all day for the last couple days with nothing better to do than to (apparently) really irritate you by having the nerve to disagree with your point of view.
I’m sorry. Really I am.
Next time I’ll try to get several sports agents on the phone to ask them whether or not a player flying down to a team’s ballpark and spending the day with team officials constitutes genuine interest. Unless I do such research, I’m obviously not qualified to voice my opinion, let alone disagree with yours.
Evidently, you have done quite a bit of research on this subject, and after much deliberation have come to the conclusion that an all day trip to Atlanta by Derek Lowe meant absolutely nothing.
I bow before your superior reasoning skills.
Having said that, I’ll expand on my point of view, if that’s ok with you (I sure hope it is).
Derek Lowe flying into Atlanta, spending 5 hours there, and then flying back… essentially means that he blocked out his Thursday to spend it with Braves officials.
I my thoroughly unresearched, uneducated opinion (completely unlike yours) I am convinced that he would not have taken this step without a good bit of prior discussion and genuine interest on his part.
By NCBravesFan
January 9, 2009 10:46 PM | Link to this
KC Lowe is not an ace, period - look up the Johan Santana stats … or Cole Hamels pitching in a cracker box of a stadium to see what “aces” look like.
Stop trying to make him into something he clearly isn’t. He’s good, he’s solid, he’s durable - all good qualities. But he’s not an ace-type pitcher.
By proeye
January 9, 2009 10:47 PM | Link to this
DCbrave…
Agreed!
Hah… Didn’t realize that “Kansas City” had been around that long… Okay time to stop conversing with the guy.
As I’ve always said, “You can’t reason with an _”
That’s a joke son. With all due respect for a fellow fan of the Braves, KC is okay. Just a bit overzealous. The blank really stands for “unreasonable person” LOL
Write that down.
Here’s to the Braves, 2009, better success at getting Lowe and Kawakami, and an even better 2010. ;-)
I will now put my drink down.
By Chop Chop
January 9, 2009 10:49 PM | Link to this
KC,
Glad to see that you’re back to normal today.
You’re still wrong, but I’m glad to see that you’re back to normal.
(That was a joke. Sort of.)
By DCbrave
January 9, 2009 10:50 PM | Link to this
Eric from MO
I’m not going to respond to your post in detail but did you notice how many “could” you said there and how often you described he was so good until? Are you going to consider a pitcher’s stat just before that “until” and forget about everhthing after that? Besides, we (actually KC) are talking about “likely” “an excellent rotation,” not could be a great rotation. I take great similar as excellent, but “could?” I consider “could” as “possible.” Of course that rotation could be a great rotation if everybody performs to what is described by proeye at 10:12 because everything is possible. Everybody on that rotation has to perform to the best of his ability under perfect circumstances in order to be an excellent rotation, given all the unknowns of Kawakaki and Hanson, not to mention about the uncertainties of a second year JJ and a tired Vazquez, you are telling me that rotation is “likely” an excellent rotation? It will likely be a good rotation if no injury happens to any of them.
By Eric from MO
January 9, 2009 10:50 PM | Link to this
35yearsbravefan,”I don’t blame Wren at all. I’m disappointed in Smoltz. I didn’t think he had that kind of an attitude…
Let’s rebuild. Bring on the youngsters.”
I understand what you are saying but come on. This is his final year. Can you blame the guy for wanting to win, especially when the Braves didnt show him real respect. How many times did he turn down more money but the Yankees? How many times did he turn down more money when the other team would allowed him to be a starter and the Braves wouldnt. He stayed in that role and never really complained. He would state that he wanted to start and that was all. How many times did he pitch through pain? He did everything the Braves could ask and they wouldnt even match the measley offer from the Red Sox. I cant blame Smoltz for leaving. It would be one thing if they could of actually pulled off a deal and made the Braves have a chance to compete, but they have done nothing. Even with Lowe, they repeatedly stated they didnt have much interest in him til Smoltz left. The only reason they are going hard after him now, is damage control. I see Wren’s point, but it is Smoltz. He has meant to much to Atlanta, not just the Braves, to not give him the extra 3 million to let him feal he is appreciated.
By KC
January 9, 2009 10:52 PM | Link to this
DCbrave: After rereading your post to me, I just realized that we don’t even disagree on this subject (of Lowe’s visit).
Perhaps I was confusing in my phrasing, but what I was saying is that Lowe spending the day here in Atlanta DOES mean something… that it DOES mean he has genuine interest. I was disagreeing with Proeye on this.
By NCBravesFan
January 9, 2009 10:53 PM | Link to this
Eric Reasonable point at 10:40 (although I would take issue with the Angels being on it based on John Lackey), but how much money are you putting on any of those teams to be playoff contenders next year?
By DAP
January 9, 2009 10:54 PM | Link to this
if the braves sign kawakami and lowe, i will be confident to go to battle with that. im not sure if it will work, but with the young depth we have, we will have a chance. the offense still needs a bat, either way.
KC. love the optimism. ill never forget when i was new to the blog…i believe it was before the 2006 season…you single handedly had me believing the braves were world series bound.
i guess all we can ask for is a chance. and with lowe and kawakami (even without kawakami) and a good bat, we will have a chance.
By Steve from OH
January 9, 2009 10:55 PM | Link to this
Folks, before we start debating whether Derek Lowe is a 1B or a 2A or whatever, can we all just realize that he is actually a good pitcher, the likes of which we don’t really have right now? I mean, seriously, trying to decide where he falls in your arbitrary 1-5 ranking system is pointless. We need to add good pitchers, and we’d be doing that with Lowe. We have another good pitcher in Jurrjens. We have a pitcher that will probably be at least average with the potential (and who seems very likely) to be above average in Vazquez. We also seem likely to add a solid back-of-the rotation starter in Kawakami, and we’ve got a lot of high-upside, low risk candidates for a #5 in Glavine, Morton, and Hanson. The former has a good track record, and, if healthy, could post a decent season. The latter two have great stuff with a definite capability to post a 4.00ish ERA.
Is it a world-beater rotation? No. Can it stack up with Boston, New York, Anaheim, or Tampa? No. Is it better than Philly’s? Likely. New York’s? Could be. Is it serviceable at worst? Definitely. Does it have the capability to be a good (or even very good) rotation? Yes, if everything goes our way.
Sorry, I know I’ve rambled a bit in this one (it’s late). Point is, it’s pointless to label starters at this point in time.
By KC
January 9, 2009 10:56 PM | Link to this
Chop Chop: I took your post completely in stride =)… but I am curious what I’ve been saying here that you disagree with?
That Hanson IS a top-flight prospect?
That Lowe isn’t just some durable middle-of-rotation starter?
That Lowe/Jurrjens/Vazquez/Kawakami/Hanson or Glavine isn’t likely to be a pretty darn good rotation (if we were to sign those guys)??
By cmac1919
January 9, 2009 10:56 PM | Link to this
“Dont forget if we are in it, we may have Hudson back in September. Also this rotation would also be set for 2010 too.”
Which would also mean we could end up having a six man rotation in 2010 and/or late 09. With Hudson, Lowe, Jurrjens, Vasquez, Kawakami, and Hanson. (assuming that there aren’t anymore season ending surgeries for any of the pitchers and that Hanson makes the rotation and is solid)
I’m guessing they’ll end up trading Javier Vasquez if this happens (but this is also making an even bigger assumption that Wren is smart enough to not eff up again and let Kawakami and Lowe slip away)
Also, if we considered A.J. has a no. 1 starter, there’s no reason why we shouldn’t do the same with Lowe
By N Nine (Smoltz will be missed)
January 9, 2009 10:57 PM | Link to this
DOB First and foremost, Thank you for working extra for us bloggers and creating 4 or 5 blogs the last fews days. We have been a mess…..
This helps us stay somewhat sane!
when was the last time braves had a five hour meeting with boras? This is epic!
I am excited to hear Dunn or Nady are players we might look at. We still have a fighting chance to be decent if things finally fall the Braves way
By Eric from MO
January 9, 2009 10:57 PM | Link to this
I was so upset about Smoltz leaving so I didnt even blog on the other blogs about it. So I dont know if anyone stated this, but does anyone else find if odd that they offered Mike Hampton more guareenteed money than Smoltz. I realize that Hampton pitched the last 3 months of the season, but before that he missed the last 3 seasons. Smoltz will do anything to pitch and Hampton would do anything to not pitch.
By proeye
January 9, 2009 10:58 PM | Link to this
Good argument Eric from MO @10:40 pm…
True… Lowe may actually be better than many team’s number one’s and frankly, we may need to dumb down our definition of what constitutes a #1 starter since we are in an age of hitting.
Or do we?
I think it’s just a way to rate pitchers. Yes, it is very subjective but we all seem to be on the same page. I think everyone would agree that Maddux & Johnson in their primes were clear #1’s, a healthy Carpenter, CC, and Webb, are all #1’s.
So while we say Lowe could be a #2 or #3 starter, it is simply based on his stats. He just hasn’t put forth the numbers nor showed the consistent high level of winning that we would expect from an ace. Like I said, he only averaged 13.5 wins in L.A. That’s not going to get anyone anywhere near the Hall of Fame which is what we expect from most aces. Whether or not they make it, they at least make it on the ballot right?
Lowe could be the Braves ace in 2009. Obviously that puts him at the #1 slot. Not a true #1 or true ace, but hey… What do I know? ;-)
Heck, we don’t even have Lowe and we could be used as pawns once again. Here’s to hoping we don’t get jacked again… ;-)
By chizm
January 9, 2009 11:02 PM | Link to this
DOB- Mike Ness covered Big Iron- you should check it out
By Dixie Dawg
January 9, 2009 11:03 PM | Link to this
Isn’t KC the guy who “Defends the Wren?”
I don’t know…just asking…I’ve been blog hopping.
By Eric from MO
January 9, 2009 11:05 PM | Link to this
I love how someone starts off their post Im not going to respond to your post then writes 8 sentences about it.
By Dixie Dawg
January 9, 2009 11:05 PM | Link to this
I think that Lowe would be a good asset to this team (that is, if we actually sign him).
By KC
January 9, 2009 11:11 PM | Link to this
DCbrave: “All joking aside, I just wish he could sufficiently support what he says and does not pretend he knows everything.”
There are certainly times when I fire off a from-the-hip comment without a great deal of consideration. But overall, I usually put a good bit of thought into my opinions before I form them, and certainly before I voice them.
I have disagreed with you. Well… actually, as I mentioned in a previous post, I’m not even sure we’ve disagreed. Anyway… I may have disagreed with you, and I know I have disagreed with a number of other people here. In each case, I think I’ve offered a fairly good explanation as to why I disagree or why I hold a certain point of view.
But what I haven’t done is personally attack you, call you a know-it-all, or suggest that you’re some kind of idiot who doesn’t devote an ounce of intelligent thought to your opinions… just because I might not appreciate your perspective.
By KC
January 9, 2009 11:15 PM | Link to this
NCBravesFan: I wasn’t trying to make the case that Lowe is an ace in the way that Santana is an ace. I was arguing with the notion that he is a just another solid, durable starter… nothing more, nothing less.
I don’t think he’s Santana. Not at all. I just think he’s more than the above description gives him credit for. Personally, I think he’s right on the borderline between what I would call a #1 starter and what I would call a #2 starter.
Dixie Dawg: Yes, I have defended Wren. While I think Smoltzly was chiefly responsible for his own departure (which is to say that he was made a reasonable offer, and the choice to leave was his)… I disagreed with Wren/The Braves handling of the Smoltz situation.
While I think Smoltz is the one who walked away, and we should lay responsibility for that decision at his feet, just as we did with Glavine… I think it would have been smart for the Braves to do whatever was necessary to keep Smoltz.
Other than the mistake that was the Smoltz situation… I think Wren has done an exceptional job. Both of his trades worked out brilliantly, and he has exercised restraint by guarding the Braves best young talent (unlike what the Detroit GM did last year when Wren raped him for Jurrjens and Hernandez).
By WrenFlops
January 9, 2009 11:16 PM | Link to this
OK, here’s my take on these possible moves and the possibility of the Braves being competitive in the NL East. A possible rotation of Derek Lowe, Kawakami, Javier Vasquez, Jair Jurgens and Tommy Hanson is a solid rotation. Plus, keep in mind that Tim Hudson MAY return at the tail end of the season. The bullpen should be strong. Whatever happens in the everyday lineup is of utmost importance. Power in left field is a must. I believe the Braves need speed in center. As for the Braves being competitive in the East, why not? Will the Phillies have all the chips fall into place for them again this season? The Mets ALWAYS seem to implode. The question was asked, “Why would Lowe sign with Atlanta when he’s at the tail end of his career and the Mets are a much better team?” I compare this team to the team that began its glorious run in the early 90’s. Some soild veterans are in place with a number of them still very young including Brian McCann, Kelly Johnson, Jeff Franceour(if he returns to a shade of his former self) and Yunel Escobar. The influx of young talent that will begin arriving in 2009 and continue over the next several years plus any additions the Braves make will put this team back in the upper echelon of the National League. I don’t think that Frank Wren will be the GM to lead them. I am very anxious to see who the Braves brass chooses to replace Bobby Cox. In any case, I feel that Atlanta can and will finish in contention for a Wild Card spot in 2009 IF some moves fall into place. I am not panicking over the Peavy saga, Furcal saga, Burnett saga or any other failed moves. Moves will happen.
By N Nine (Smoltz will be missed)
January 9, 2009 11:17 PM | Link to this
does anyone else find if odd that they offered Mike Hampton more guareenteed money than Smoltz Eric from MO
Never thought about that and that does show Wren doesn’t value things right. Smoltz should have been offered more..Great point Eric..
By DCbrave
January 9, 2009 11:17 PM | Link to this
KC:
Take it easy, man. We’re all bloggers here and we are all fans. Nobody is superior than others and we all know something and don’t know something. Just be reasonable.
Good night, everyone.
By Eric from MO
January 9, 2009 11:24 PM | Link to this
Proeye, I think we have to in your words “dumb down our defintions.” Pitching isnt as good as it was 15 years ago. Numerous reasons, smaller parks, steriods, and smaller strike zones. 100 years ago a number one started 50 games. So I believe we have to dumb down our definition.
NCBravesfan I didnt include Lackey because he only pitched 160 innings. However, you could make a case for him. There is no way to know which teams will make the playoffs, for the simple fact who picked the Rays to be in and who thought the Tigers would of been that bad, but of those teams I will list the ones I can see competing.
Oakland, they always are competitive. Anaheim was in the playoffs this year.
Twins are always competitive. White Sox were competitive this year and could be next. They seem to suprise people sometimes. Detriot is interesting. There were bad last year, but if there offensive guys are motivated there is no reason to believe they cant get back to where everybody expected them.
Dodgers were in the playoffs. Torre is a great manager. St. Louis is always competitive and Florida is on the rise.
So out of those 16 teams I say 6 of them, which is really not that bad.
By Sir Blogsalot
January 9, 2009 11:25 PM | Link to this
does anyone else find if odd that they offered Mike Hampton more guaranteed money than Smoltz
Not when you consider that Hampton, 36, has recovered from a fairly common procedure and will be ready to pitch on day one of the season. Smoltz, 41, is attempting to come back and pitch with a shoulder being held together by 5 screws, something never done before, and won’t be ready until June, May at best.
By DCbrave
January 9, 2009 11:26 PM | Link to this
I love how someone starts off their post Im not going to respond to your post then writes 8 sentences about it - Eric from MO
I was about to leave the blog when I saw your above post, and felt the need to respond. Now you my friend just cost me one hour of sleep. Apparently you were referring to my 10:50 post. Simple, just look at my post again, you may by chance find what I said was “I’m not going to respond to your post in detail. So you called that 8 sentences as a detailed response to your long post of 10:17?
By KC
January 9, 2009 11:28 PM | Link to this
DCbrave: All I ever do is voice my opinion man. That’s it. I think that’s what we’re all here to do. You’re always welcome to argue a point with me. I welcome it. All I ask is for you to argue the point rather than just dismissing me as an idiot. But of course, it’s a free country and a free blog. =)
By brian
January 9, 2009 11:29 PM | Link to this
If the Braves sign Kawakami and Lowe, I wonder if the braves will move Morton in a package for OF help
By JEB
January 9, 2009 11:31 PM | Link to this
I remember back in September, hearing that Lowe was quoted as saying that spending time with Greg Maddox those last 2 months was an eye opening experience! He attributed his improvemnt in his pitching, at the end of the season, to Maddox.
We could be getting a greatly improved Derek Lowe! I don’t think it will be the same Derek Lowe of previous seasons! We will probably see the Derek Lowe with the 6-1 record and 1.27 era in the last 10 starts Derek Lowe. He WILL be a better pitcher, Maddox does that to pitchers that are around him and care to listen.
Let’s hope the Braves get this deal done for Lowe!
By Dixie Dawg
January 9, 2009 11:31 PM | Link to this
KC
I respect your opinion. They’re like @ssholes….everybody has one.
Let me pose this question here… If Wren fails to sign Lowe and that Japanese dude…can you still defend him?
I’m just glad we have a pretty healthy farm system.
But, KC, if your boy (Wren) fails to do this, all hell is going to break loose. If he gets at least one of them…then he would have a “stay” of execution.
And don’t worry…I shoot from the hip, myself. I just read the articles and watch ESPN. You don’t have to be a baseball analyst to blog here.
By Boo Boo
January 9, 2009 11:37 PM | Link to this
If Derek Lowe is represented by Scott Borras, the only reason the Braves will be able to make an offer is so Borras can shop that offer as serious interest in Lowe, in an effort to reach the highest bidder. Naturally, the highest bidder will be in another city, one where a better chance to make the playoffs lies.
I really thought the Braves had a chance of signing Pete Rose, back when he was pimping himself around the league, promising World Championships to whoever signed him. He knew the Braves were too much to heal, so he went to Philly; but he made a splash with the fans for a couple of days, letting them dream of Peety hustling out ground-outs to second. Lowe has a better chance in New York, Boston, or Philly.
I believe the Braves are locked in on that successful Florida Marlin roadmap to world championships … let rookies get to the last year of their arbitration contracts, when they are about to have breakout seasons, then sign a few key free agents to 1-2 year deals, win the World Series, then sell everyone off and start over with the fresh meat of the sales. Heck, two world championships for next to nothing beats the Braves one, paying out the nose for years. You just have to be ready for two-three 90+ loss seasons in a row.
By Eric from MO
January 9, 2009 11:37 PM | Link to this
Sir Blogsalot are you sure he will be ready on day one? How many times did we hear he was only a week or two away. At least you know Smoltz will pitch through pain til his arm falls off. Just thought it was odd we offered more money to a guy who sucked 16 million a year for three years on the D.L. than a guy who lead us to 5 World Series and did just about anything to help us win.
DCBrave,”I was about to leave the blog when I saw your above post, and felt the need to respond. Now you my friend just cost me one hour of sleep. Apparently you were referring to my 10:50 post. Simple, just look at my post again, you may by chance find what I said was “I’m not going to respond to your post in detail. So you called that 8 sentences as a detailed response to your long post of 10:17?”
It took you an hour to write that?
By Dixie Dawg
January 9, 2009 11:38 PM | Link to this
Brian
I think that moving Morton is a viable option….
but to who?? that’s the question…
By Anders
January 9, 2009 11:38 PM | Link to this
John Heyman is reporting the Mets are on the verge of signing a certain right hand pitcher. Tim Redding. OK Braves fans you can exhale now.
By Wayne in Utah
January 9, 2009 11:39 PM | Link to this
KC Hey, some of us on here are 100% behind you, my friend.
There are lots of folks here that are living in the 2000’s, the time of the “what have you done for me right now”. These are the people who want to fuss about a single at bat, heck a single pitch. “We can’t be expected to wait until all the chips fall, we want to rip you a new one NOW Frank Wren!”
It’s the instant gratification crowd. So, Peavy and Towers used Atlanta to get the Cub’s engaged, Wren should have known better. If we had made the deal, they would find something to complain about. Peavy’s arm is gonna fall of, or we gave up way too much.
Then, we go after a pitcher who has the stuff of a true #1, and we offer big money for him, but alas, he is whipped by his wife and goes where she wants him to go. If Burnett had signed with us, then it would have been “why are we signing this guy who can’t stay healthy”.
Next, our old friend Furcal comes along and wants to come back and play for his second father, Bobby Cox. In actuality, he never wanted to leave LA, but was looking for any angle to get LA reengaged.
Again, it was Wren’s fault. He should have upped the offer. Kinda like going to the car lot, offering 25 grand for that new car, signing the paperwork, then having the salesman come back and say, hey, I am going to sell that car to this other guy for 26 grand. Do you want to rebid? Hell no I don’t. Some on here were saying last night that we should have tried to renegotiate with someone who has lied to us before.
Now, the Braves (Wren, in particualar) has a plan in place that when Smoltz is farther along in the rehab process, we will negotiate. It is a public plan, and Smoltz is a party to it. I suspect JS put pressure on the Braves to negotiate earlier. So, they make an offer, determined by where he was before Christmas (if you listen to the sage Blaine Boyer, maybe the offer should have been for 15 million guaranteed).
They make a fair offer, with a decent upside potential for a guy who is saying he probably won’t be ready for a month or two (or three) into the season. Now, Boston comes along and makes a much higher offer, does that make the Braves offer any less valid? Of course it doesn’t.
Folks, stop and smell the coffee. Read the articles on Smoltz over the past 48 hours and see that he was looking for a reason to get away from the Braves. He didn’t believe the Braves were going to contend this year, and wanted to save face, so now he is not getting the due respect he deserves. Besides, he did say early on that he only wanted to play for the Braves this next season. Yeah, right.
Should the Braves make an offer above their original offer to keep a guy who might never throw another pitch in the major leagues? I suspect they decided he was going to just keep upping the ante. Where would it stop?
I put this all squarely on the shoulders of John Smoltz. It was his decision to not be your Brave anymore. Besides, we were all privately thinking that Hampton owed us a home advantaged contract after paying him for not pitching for so long. Many of us are thinking that Smoltz would feel guilty taking all that money last year, and sign up for a team friendly contract, just to see if he could come back. John did not want to toil on a team that only remotely had a shot at the playoffs.
Now, to my point. This is certainly ALL Frank Wren’s fault. Besides, he ticked off Cal Ripken 9 years ago, and inherited a bankrupt team, so it MUST be his fault. Dumazz Frank Wren. Let’s fire him.
Now, the same folks that would send Frank packing will never like what the Braves are doing now, as they are not interested in promoting the Braves, but they are more interested in being a frickin martyr. They would rather say “See, that Frank Wren lied to us again, he didn’t get us two top flight starters, and an all-star outfielder.” If he gets Dunn, they will complain about his low BA or something. If he gets Nady, then they will hate that he got another 1 year rental. Lowe, well everybody knows he is a #3 at the best. And don’t even talk to us about that Japanese pitcher…..
So, KC, while you, I and others will always look to the positive, and try like heck to figure out how we can win with our team, many on here will not be happy unless the Braves fail, so they can find a reason to confirm their beliefs that it is all Frank Wren’s fault.
Personally, I just wish if they were as unhappy as they say, that they would just go away. Become a Red Sox or Yankees fan, and go take their drivel to those blogs. But heck no, they will stay and continue telling you and I how wrong we are for trying to see the positives in our team.
Now, there are some that just need to go. I am not going to name names. You know who you are. If you wake up in the morning, and the first thoughts out of your mind are: “Frank Wren sucks” then I might be talking about you.
There are others who just like to be controversial. (Sometimes, I put myself in that category, though I try not to overdo it). They just want to stick the knife in and twist it a little. (N8, Random, does this sound familiar)
For the most part, we can see through you guys. We know that deep down, you know that besides being human, FW is doing a decent job. While his methods might not be the same as yours would be, he is much smarter than ALL of us, or else we would be the Braves GM, and he would be another blogger (not that there is anything wrong with being a blogger!)
I have rambled on so long, many of you are looking up to see if this is Braveheart or Savannah Guy instead of Wayne from Utah!
:-)
By Chop Chop
January 9, 2009 11:42 PM | Link to this
KC,
I gauge a GM’s brilliance by the results his team produces on the field. There is no doubt that getting Jurrjens and Hernandez (who may or may not end up doing much in the bigs) for Renteria was a steal. The deal for Ohman and Infante was also a steal. The thing to remember is that both deals were done under the radar. It makes me wonder whether Schuerholz had anything at all to do with the groundwork for those deals. They were handled as Schuerholz would have handled them: in strictest secrecy.
This offseason has been completely different (I’m not talking about results, just the visibility of negotiations), which leads me to believe that Frank Wren is beginning to leave his true stamp on the club. If bad things happen and Wren is clearly the guy in control, he’s going to get a lot of blame. He has one bad season under his belt. 2009 should be a mediocre one. 2010 is the year we’re supposed to be hyped up about all the kids. That will be when Wren is truly made or broken.
(Note: I’m okay with 2009 being a rebuilding year. I’ll give Wren a pass. Yeah, even after the Smoltz debacle. If 2010 doesn’t work out, I won’t be so forgiving.)
By Billy Pilgrim (Good luck Smoltzy & GO BRAVES!)
January 9, 2009 11:47 PM | Link to this
Wayne in Utah
Beautiful.
By tlj
January 9, 2009 11:50 PM | Link to this
Wayne in Utah
Good post I agree with you 100 %
By Wayne in Utah
January 9, 2009 11:51 PM | Link to this
Dixie If you are “Blog Hopping”, I hope you are using some sort of protection! That can be dangerous.
Eric Are you kidding about the Hampton/Smoltz comparison? Hampton pitched the last 1/3 of the season, had come off several surgeries successfully. And your statement that he doesn’t want to pitch, shows you have no clue about the person.
Smoltz on the other hand, is 5 years older and just had a major operation, in which there is no guarantee that he can come back at all. We all hope he does, be even he is saying it will be into the season before he is ready.
So, you are paying for a know versus an unknown.
By Chop Chop
January 9, 2009 11:52 PM | Link to this
Dixie Dawg,
Wren gets a “stay” if he signs Lowe. If he signs Lowe and Kawakami, he’s done the best he could. If he can’t sign either guy, he might as well talk about rebuilding. If he signs Kawakami alone, I will laugh very hard.
Very, very hard.
“Hey, Braves fans! Come out to the Ted and watch a soon-to-be 34-year-old guy who’s never thrown a big league pitch! He’s our savior!”
Yeah. It just doesn’t work for me.
By AustinBraves
January 9, 2009 11:52 PM | Link to this
I just watch the final game of the 1991 World Series between the Twins and Braves and Jack Morris and John Smoltz. It brings back alot of memories. John we are going to miss you Buddy!!!!!
By Dixie Dawg
January 9, 2009 11:54 PM | Link to this
Wayne in Utah
Good grief…that last entry should be nominated for the Pulitzer!
I’m assuming the Percocet has worn off by now :)
By KC
January 9, 2009 11:54 PM | Link to this
Dixie Dawg: Well, if Lowe doesn’t sign, I’m not going to think of that as a Wren failure. All you can do is put your best foot forward and make an offer. You can’t put a gun to their head and make them sign.
Wren has a tougher job in attracting free agents than John Scheurholz had a few years ago. From 1991 up to a few years ago, the Braves were a lock for the playoffs every year, and free agents knew that by signing with Atlanta, they’d would definitely be playing for a contender. Now Wren has to give players a sales pitch to try and convince them that the Braves will be back in the postseason soon.
A few years ago, Cox indicated that he’d retire sometime soon… and with Bobby Cox re-upping one year at a time, it’s hard to use him as part of the sales pitch for a multi-year deal.
The Braves are not an undesireable destination… but they’re not the top free agent draw they once were.
So in short… yes, I would still defend him. He’s been working his a$$ off this winter. He’s made some very good offers (both to free agents and for trades) while not making any stupid offers or giving up our future for a quick fix.
Wren’s first trade - Jurrjens and Hernandez for Renteria - was probably the best trade the Braves have made since the McGriff deal. And his second trade - Ohman and Infant for a reliever whose name I can’t remember - also worked out very well.
Things haven’t fallen the Braves way this winter, but -other than the Smoltz thing- I think he’s made all the right decisions since taking over for Schuerholz.
By Eric from MO
January 9, 2009 11:56 PM | Link to this
Chop Chop I agree. 2010 will be the make or break year for Wren. Yeah Wren had a bad year with last year, but he took over a bad team. Everybody blames him for trading Tex, we were out of it. Like it or not we had no chance. Also you think if he stayed with the Braves he would of then turned down the Yankees offer. No, we would just have nothng in return.
Back to my point, I have said all off-season that the Braves had to many holes to fix in one off-season. Best we could hope for is be .500 in 09 and contend in 2010. If he signs Lowe and that Jap we would be set up to do that.
2010 is when we will first see what Wren has done.
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 12:00 AM | Link to this
Wayne in Utah, I wished I knew you so we could put a wager on who pitches more innings next year. I bet you if there was a nation wide poll on who thinks will pitch more innings 90% would say Smoltz.
By Dixie Dawg
January 10, 2009 12:06 AM | Link to this
Wayne in Utah
Uh oh…something’s not right here….my hands are getting itchy!!! I have a rash on all of my fingers!!! And, oh my goodness, I have open sores on my fingertips!!!
ARRRRGGHHH…you were right…I shoulda used protection, Wayne….damn!!!
sorry, we needed some inappropriate humor on this blog.
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 12:07 AM | Link to this
KC I completely agree with you about Bobby upping one year at a time. The best part of Bobby is that players love playing for him and players want to play for him, but no player will sign a multi-year deal when they dont know if Cox will be here more than a year.
By the way I have been a huge Cox fan, but I think its time to go. Cox used to get the best out of his players, but dont seem like he does anymore. I think he is one of the best managers I have ever seen but I hope this is his last year. I just hope the Braves dont make Terry Pendleton the manager.
By dan
January 10, 2009 12:08 AM | Link to this
Here are my thoughts about Frank Wren. Three major trades. The Renteria and Ascanio trades were absolute steals for the Braves, especially Renteria. I also think he got excellent value for Tex and did not give up too much to get Javy Vazquez. It is highly questionable if Flowers will ever be adequate enough defensively to catch.
However, one aspect of Frank’s regime really troubles me. He begins this offseason by telling everyone what the Braves need. Then he is very forthcoming to the media about Peavy, Burnett, and Furcal. Now, when those moves do not materialize, he shifts philosophies and becomes more secretive and introverted.
This is not Frank Wren’s first rodeo in the front office. I would like to have thought he would have his M.O. pretty well figured out by now.
That said, I think it was a huge PR nightmare to let Smoltz leave over two million dollars. Given the fact that the Braves have money to spend, it is an even more egregious error. That move created animosity in the stands and in the dugout.
By KC
January 10, 2009 12:08 AM | Link to this
Wayne in Utah: Well said sir! Agreed on all points.
Hey… when are you coming down here to enjoy a Braves game (and a Gwinnett Braves game)?
Chop Chop: I’m not arguing with the logic of gauging performance on results… but we can’t always gauge performance by immediate results.
Wren is trying to win now as much as possible, while not sacrificing the future. But it’s a tough job right now. The Braves are a harder sell at the moment for free agents than the used to be.
Frank Wren has been right to pursue the players he’s pursued, and he’s done will in his efforts to acquire those players. The thing is… they get a choice. Other teams get to decide whether or not to make a trade, and players can decide whether or not they’d rather be in LA or NY.
I’m confident that the results of Wren’s efforts will be apparent soon. If not this year, then the next.
By Dixie Dawg
January 10, 2009 12:08 AM | Link to this
I hear ya KC
By scottbravesfan
January 10, 2009 12:14 AM | Link to this
Lowe and Dunn would make me a happy man.
Get it done Frank!
By Anders
January 10, 2009 12:16 AM | Link to this
KC
Care to comment on Wren’s unnecessary signing of Soriano to that two year extension last off season? Assuming he pitches this season (something he barely did last year when his injury prone career was interrupted again) he’ll be a $6.1 mil set-up guy. You think maybe that crossed Smoltz’s mind while staring at a $3mil incentive laden offer for the 20th year of his war horse career?
How about the Glavine signing last year? Another bust. Plus the traitor got $8 mil to return while the loyal soldier got a $3mil incentive laden offer for the 20th year of his war horse career.
Before you start using the Renteria trade as the end all to making Wren a made GM keep in mind Detroit made a slew of personnel blunders last off season so they seem to have been a pretty easy mark.
By Doc Holiday
January 10, 2009 12:17 AM | Link to this
Could anybody answer……….how good is this KAwakami??? as I have not really made any research on him.
By Tomas
January 10, 2009 12:21 AM | Link to this
I think the Braves should sign Kawakami and Derek Lowe. Then with whatever money there is left sign Bobby Abreu or Orlando Hudson(if there’s enough money), or trade for Jermaine Dye, Nick Swisher, or Xavier Nady(depending on what the Yankees want in return). If I had to guess I think Kawakami signs a contract worth 2yrs 13 million, and Lowe signs a contract worth 4yrs 60 million with a vesting option worth 15 million. If the Braves really did have 45-48 million to spend on free agents this offseason, then they could sign Abreu or Orlando Hudson after signing both Kenshin Kawakami, and Derek Lowe. If they somehow managed to sign those two pitchers, and O-dog, or Abreu, they would have a really good team. I prefer Abreu over Hudson, because Abreu wasn’t offered arbitration, and might take a low offer given the small market for outfielders.
By brent a.
January 10, 2009 12:27 AM | Link to this
Wayne, Nice post. Appreciate your contributions.
I’ve always felt like Smoltz has been looking for an excuse to get out of here.
Personally, I think it’s possible that the Braves could’ve handled Smoltz better; but, at the same time, there are a lot of different personalities at play within an organization, and a lot of egos to get bruised.
One thing people need to secure firmly in their minds is that this was the Boston Red Sox, not the Cincinnati Reds.
Smoltz went to one of the handful of teams that could throw extra money at him, and he used that to make the Braves look bad.
Sure, Smoltz wanted the Braves to do for him what the Red Sox would; but hey, so would everyone else. But remember the Red Sox are playing a different game than we are. If Smoltz is honest, he can’t expect the Braves to be able to do exactly what the Red Sox did.
When I first read Chipper’s comments yesterday, I couldn’t help but think that the Braves had really messed up. But, the more I looked at them, and the more that I’ve seen/heard since, the more I think that Smoltz may have been a little too sensitive about the Braves offer.
Also, watching Wren on the local news tonight, he just comes across as very reasonable. Plain and simple, he says, “If John pitched, he gets essentially the same guaranteed money.” Wren went on to note that if Smoltz did not pitch, that the Braves wanted to have the ability to replace him. That last part is very important. Wren is essentially saying that if the Braves guaranteed $5 million and John doesn’t pitch, then they are out that money. But, if they only guarantee $2 million and John doesn’t pitch, then they have an extra $3 million to work with in their pursuit of another arm at the trade deadline.
The Braves were hedging their bets, while the Red Sox, with a larger bank account, could be more aggressive.
The more I see/hear, the more I understand the Braves position on this, in terms of financing and contract negotiations.
All that said, I do think the Braves may have mishandled this situation long before. Perhaps John’s ego was not stroked properly at the right times, so that when we got to this point, it was easier for him to walk away. It’s not unreasonable to think that John had been perturbed enough int the past at the Braves FO, that he was more likely to feel disrespected in this situation.
By Anders
January 10, 2009 12:29 AM | Link to this
Doc Holiday
Could anybody answer……….how good is this KAwakami???
Not bad, they get about 15 mpg city and 22 mpg highway.
By brent a.
January 10, 2009 12:30 AM | Link to this
I’ll just add that I think it’s silly to expect KC, or anyone else for that matter, to have to justify every single Frank Wren move as Braves’ GM.
Why t**-for-tat a guy to death?
By Dixie Dawg
January 10, 2009 12:33 AM | Link to this
Anders
once they hit 100,000….it’s all downhill from there…
By Psg81
January 10, 2009 12:36 AM | Link to this
Kenshin Kawakami (, born June 22, 1975 in Tokushima, Japan) is a Japanese baseball player. He pitched for the Chunichi Dragons of the Central League. Kawakami was Rookie of the Year in 1998 as he went 14-6 with a 2.57 ERA. He helped the Dragons to the Central League Title in 1999, but lose in the Japan Series in 5 games to the F******* Daiei Hawks. He has pitched a no-hitter in his professional career. In 2004, Kawakami went 17-7 and led Chunichi to the Central League Title, though they fell to the Seibu Lions in 7 games in the Japan Series. That year, Kawakami was named Central League MVP and received the Sawamura as Japan’s best pitcher. Kawakami again won 17 games in 2006 and led the Dragons to the Central League title again, winning Game 1 of the Japan Series against the Hokkaido Nippon Ham Fighters and won his second Sawamura Award.
In 2007, Kawakami helped the Dragons end a 53 championship drought as they beat the Nippon Ham Fighters in 5 games.
Kawakami is known as a crafty veteran who is said to throw a 90 MPH fastball, a slow curveball, and a very good cutter. He has a reputation as a big-game pitcher who challenges hit
By Bubdylan
January 10, 2009 12:36 AM | Link to this
Anders, you are a spiteful troll dressed as a straight-shooter, but… that sh*t was pretty funny (12:29)
By Justin
January 10, 2009 12:38 AM | Link to this
He is similar to, if not better than Hiroki Kuroda from the dodgers. We all saw him when he pitched nearly a no hitter against the braves last year, (Tex had the only hit). A rotation of Lowe, Vazquez, JJ, Kawakami, and Hanson/Campillo would be the best rotation in the NL East.
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 12:39 AM | Link to this
Doc its hard to say since he hasnt pitched in the Majors. He is no Dice-K but a couple years ago he did win the Japan award equivalent to the Cy Young award. He is projected to be a #3 or a good #4 pitcher. He is a 5-6 inning pitcher with an ERA between 3.5 and 4.0. He is no ace but he could help complete a solid rotation if Lowe is signed. I think that is about as honest as anyone can say since none of us have seen him pitch.
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 12:39 AM | Link to this
Dixie Just stay away from Bisher and Moore, and your symptoms will probably subside.
Actually, I had to go out today for an errand or two, and really went too far, too soon. I am due for another pill about now, so if I start to get testy, then you folks will have to take me with a grain of salt. Nice having an excuse for being rude, crude and socially unacceptable, huh.
Eric No doubt that about 90% of those asked would take Smoltz on that bet. I have always said that it is not wise to bet against John.
But, my point is this: If a person is 95 years old, what is the chance they will live to see 96? Probably not too good. So, in considering the severity of Hampton’s woes and Smoltz’ shoulder issues, I can certainly see where a team would be able to bank on a more productive year out of Hampton than Smoltz.
I will probably forget, but some of my friends will remind me of all my predictions (Random, I am counting on you!) this winter. I have also predicted that Morton and Reyes will be more successful than Smoltz and Glavine next year. I could be wrong, but it is hard not to bet on youth, when the alternative is well over 40.
Doc Hopefully, he is good enough for us to forget about Tommy Turncoat.
By Mike S
January 10, 2009 12:43 AM | Link to this
brent a.,
Well said at 12:27am. My thoughts exactly.
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 12:45 AM | Link to this
Jay Leno is having a great monolog tonight: The economy is so bad,
1) When Jimmy Carter was at the White House, he thought he was still President.
2) Jack Bauer was torturing his stock broker.
3) The Mafia now has to eat at the “Olive Garden”.
Good stuff….that many of you saw two hours ago.
KC My company is HQ’d in SC, but they have been cutting way back on corporate travel thses days. Don’t know when I will be back this summer, if at all. I will try like heck to include a trip to ATL or Gwinnett if I get back. It would sure be nice to connect with some Braves fans.
Maybe some of you folks could come out to Phoenix or Denver? Gotta get with my Colorado brethern and sisters sometime too!
By Dixie Dawg
January 10, 2009 12:46 AM | Link to this
Wayne
Yeah, those guys could give you “viruses”…heh heh, get it?
Maybe I’ll use a “trojan”LOL
I know, I know, Shut up, Dixie, you’re not funny”
By Anders
January 10, 2009 12:46 AM | Link to this
brent a
I’ll just add that I think it’s silly to expect KC, or anyone else for that matter, to have to justify every single Frank Wren move as Braves’ GM.
Fair enough but there is a need for balance when defending Wren. Continually throwing the Renteria deal out as proof of constant success is a little narrow sighted.
BTW- I happen to think they were right to let Smoltz go. I do have my suspicion that they wanted him off the club because it was time to move the pitching staff in another direction. Smoltz as the dominant male pitcher wasn’t cutting it anymore. I think Hampton leaving for less was the first sign of this.
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 12:48 AM | Link to this
Brent a. to a point I agree with you. However, other than the Smoltz thing I think he has handled it pretty good. He hasnt been able to complete some deals but thats because he refuses to overspend. The Braves were handcuffed several years by some big deals, ex:Hampton and he refuses to do that again. I cant say that is bad. He refuses to give up our future for Peavy. I cant say thats bad either. By the way I was probably the biggest Peavy supporter. I probably would gave them their king’s ransom but Im glad he didnt.
Now all that being said I believe he handled Smoltz situation wrong. However, I understand his point if Smoltz played he would get his money. However, I think Smoltz has earned the right to have guarenteed money but I still see Wren’s point. I think what KC’s biggest point is lets wait til the season begins and we can actually see the roster to bash Wren. If he signs Lowe and Kawokami I think we had a decent off-season. We added a number 1 pitcher, another innings-eater in Vazquez, and a solid 4 or 5 pitcher in Kawokami. We would have a good rotation. Our offense would still be suspect but with a solid rotation and a great bullpen we may be able to overcome it. If not we would be set up great to build for 2010.
By NO MORE BOBBY
January 10, 2009 12:48 AM | Link to this
Still would love to see Smoltz come back to Atlanta and be our manager next season. Go win that ring with the Sox and then come rescue pro baseball (laughs) back to this city please John.
Also I now have all the respect in the world for Chipper now after his interview. He better not get the Dale Murphy treatment!!
By proeye
January 10, 2009 12:51 AM | Link to this
KC @10:52
That’s fine, but you really aren’t disagreeing. If you mean only that spending 5 hours MAY mean that Lowe has some interest in coming to Atlanta, that I agree with. However, it means ZERO when it comes to actually signing on the dotted line. If Lowe has a choice between 5 teams and if the only team he spent any time with was with the Braves, you know he is not going to consider this when it really comes down to using that pen.
By Bubdylan
January 10, 2009 12:53 AM | Link to this
If you freeze a 2-liter bottle full of water and then let it thaw naturally, after about an hour, you get a perfect naked ice-boob. I’m serious, the nip is the part where the water froze in the mouth of the bottle. It’s freaking gorgeous. I wish I had two, though…
By Anders
January 10, 2009 12:53 AM | Link to this
Bubdylan
Anders, you are a spiteful troll dressed as a straight-shooter,
And you are a straight shooter dressed as a spiteful troll.
You complete me.
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 12:56 AM | Link to this
Anders I commented on this earlier but my post didnt appear. Maybe I forgot my name or email address.
Now I will give you props, cause I remember you saying last offseason that Soriano was a bad signing. However you are negative for everything, so maybe I shouldnt give you props but anyways try to keep an open mind to my defense of Soriano’s signing. Lets say Soriano would of converted 45 out of 47 saves. Many thought he could of, injuries can happen to anyone. So he does that, and he hits the FA Market. What do you think he would go for. Probably 10-12 million a year for 3-4 years. Anytime you give somebody an extension that is the risk you are taking. Sometimes it pays off and sometimes it dont. As for this season yeah he is a set-up man, but if him and Gonzo remain healthy we are lights out the last 2 innings. Having that our advantage over most teams. If we have any chance of contending it will be because of our bullpen.
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 12:56 AM | Link to this
Anders Come on man, you are better than that (or at least you have been lately!). :-)
Soriano had completed a very good year when he was signed to that contract, which had a lower salary for 2008. So was Wren to know he would get that nerve issue in his elbow.
Tommy Turncoat was signed for the going salary for a healthy, mid-rotation free agent. No sign of injury in the past.
Did you really expect after the debacle that is called the 2008 season, he was going to over pay for Smoltz?
You guys in the NE are used to your teams overpaying for the bat boy. Other teams have to be more realistic.
I repeat one more time, John Smoltz was offered a fair salary by the Braves. He choose to leave it for a bloated salary offered by Boston. No way can you say that Boston’s offer was the fair offer, and Atlanta’s was a low ball (well, I guess you could, but I would have to disagree with you).
By Anders
January 10, 2009 12:59 AM | Link to this
Wayne In Ut
Speaking of late night TV - do you watch Craig Ferguson on The Late Late Show? The guy is refreshingly funny. He kills Conan O’Brien imo.
By uga-brave
January 10, 2009 1:02 AM | Link to this
wayne,
if if were buts, and candy, and nuts, well you know the rest
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 1:03 AM | Link to this
Dixie and Bubdylan
Just for you folks, and others are not to read this. After my adventures this week, I now have 3 man boobs, instead of 2. Kinda weird looking, and sore as hell.
:-)
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 1:04 AM | Link to this
Am I the only one going to try Bubdylan’s 12:53 post?
By KC
January 10, 2009 1:05 AM | Link to this
Wayne In Utah: Understood. I probably won’t have occasion to visit Colorado or Phoenix anytime soon (probably won’t get to make a Colorado ski trip this winter, though I’d love too!).
Shoot me an email at kccjr1@gmail.com and let’s keep in touch so you can let me know if you’re ever in town. I’m sure flange1 and Grinch would like to grab a beer with you at a game as well.
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 1:09 AM | Link to this
Anders To be honest, the only way that I was watching Leno was because my wife and sister in law were watching the network channel, before I came down to bed down for the night. Since I wrote that Leno post, now I am alternating between Fox News and the Food Network. I love to watch folks cooking! I need to check to see what is on the MLB network. I was sleeping through most of the Braves/Yankees series show earlier.
By Bubdylan
January 10, 2009 1:15 AM | Link to this
Wayne, first I spent about a full minute trying to get that pictured in my head… than I was like “AW, man, why did I DO that??” Thanks, pal. First the Utes, now this?
By Tomas
January 10, 2009 1:20 AM | Link to this
15 million Mike Hampton + 14 million John Smoltz + 8 million Tom Glavine + 6.5 million(just a guess) insurance money for Tim Hudson + 2 million Mark Kotsay +1.8 million Will Ohman + 12.5 million Mark Teaxeira + Greg Norton 1.75 million
TOTAL: 61.55 million
Eligible for arbitration: Mike Gonzalez, LHP; Matt Diaz, OF; Casey Kotchman, 1B; Jeff Francoeur, OF; Kelly Johnson, 2B; Omar Infante. Right now they are being paid a total of 6.92 million, with the raises and I just want to say this is a total guess on my part, and they go from 6.92 million to 10.54 million. 3.62 million.
Javier Vazquez 11.5 million, David Ross 1.5 million, and Greg Norton 0.800k.
Total: 44.13 million left on the Braves bank, and according to Wren the payroll may even go up, and the economy hasn’t affected them.
If this is true, I really think they should resign Will Ohman, sign Derek Lowe, Bobby Abreu, and Kenshin Kawakami.
By Here it Comes
January 10, 2009 1:22 AM | Link to this
So when does Kawakami say: “opps, never mind. I like the Orioles better”?
By uga-brave
January 10, 2009 1:24 AM | Link to this
DOB,
3 years 24 million for kawakami?
saw “gran torino” the other night. i wonder how clint would of felt about trading a detroit classic for a japan import?
probably a lot of colorful metaphors.
By Dixie Dawg
January 10, 2009 1:26 AM | Link to this
Wayne
This is scary. You have the same disgusting, sick sense of humor as I do.
You’re a man’s man. I love you,man!
By CT
January 10, 2009 1:27 AM | Link to this
This has been the worst offseason for the Braves that I can ever remember and honestly, at the moment I could care less who we sign. Every time Braves fans have gotten their hopes up this winter, they have been dashed as quickly as the Yankees can sign a million dollar check and even if we do sign Lowe or Kamikaze (w/e) I still see us fighting off the Nats for 4th in the division. I gave a pass to Frank and the boys in the Peavy, Burnett, and Furcal dealings because what transpired simply wasnt their fault, but this Smoltzy fiasco is the last straw. At worst, I would have been perfectly fine with a Smoltzy farewell tour, even if it did cost us 5 million dollars; the man has given his heart and soul to the Atlanta organization and community for 20 years and the least the Braves could have done, was to allow him a chance to come back and retire a Brave as he saw fit. Smoltz showed us before that money was never an issue to him because while we had our former stars signing left and right w/ the Mets, Yanks, and Dodgers, Smoltzy was always and forever a Brave. But I do think respect was an issue and while the Braves were reluctant in signing John w/o first forcing him to sign a medical waiver, the Red Sox swooped in and possibly could have just landed a postseason gem. Good luck to the BoSox though, even if they dont get the Smoltzy of old, his value goes so much more beyond just pitching and he will be an extremely positive figure in the clubhouse and the community. I guess the saddest thing about this is the Atlanta Braves now have nothing to identify themselves with: No TBS, no Skip, no Pete, no Maddux, probably no Glavine, and no John Smoltz. Heaven forbid Chipper is right and his days are numbered. I’m sure I’ll be fine and doing the chop w/ 50,000 other people come this April but as for right now, I’m just a disheartened Braves fan. But I do have one request, after Smoltzy does finally hang up the cleats, maybe the organization will give him a broadcast position. I thoroughly enjoyed the games last year down the stretch when he was the color guy.
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 1:27 AM | Link to this
Bub As bad as it is to envision, it is worse in person!
KC Check your in box.
By Bubdylan
January 10, 2009 1:29 AM | Link to this
saw “gran torino” the other night. i wonder how clint would of felt about trading a detroit classic for a japan import? uga-brave
“Go ahead, take my pay…”
By N8
January 10, 2009 1:33 AM | Link to this
Nice post Wayne.
I have to admit. As much as I thought this was the Braves blowing smoke up Smoltz’ azz, after listenting to to Wren’s entire interview with Kincade today, I actually believe him.
And I agree with your angle. That Smoltz wanted out.
Had we traded for Peavy, he likely comes back. Had we signed Burnett, he likely comes back. The Furcal thing? Not so sure Furcal is better for us than Escobar, but more than likely a trade follows that signing. Meaning Smoltz is inclined to stay.
If Derek Lowe is signed last week, maybe Smoltz comes back.
But ultimately, I think you are correct. He wanted out, and even if Wren ups the ante, Boston goes one step further as well.
It’s too bad, really.
But wouldn’t it be ironic, after all this nonsense, and after all the crap that Glavine got, if Tommy was healthy, and gave us what Moyer gave the Phillies last year? And leading us back into the thick of things.
I’m not suggesting, or even pinning any hopes on Glavine leading us to a WS title. That would be silly. Impossible? No. Just not probable.
But here’s the thing. IF Gonzo, Soriano and Moylan are remotely healthy, that’s a helluva bullpen.
IF Lowe is signed (I think the odds are slim - Boras is using the Braves to up the ante from the Mets - who have a better shot at post season, which is what a 36 year old is gonna want), and Hanson is even remotely close to what is being advertised, this pitching staff won’t be half bad. Certainly not “Big 3” good. But better than what we’ve had the past 3 seasons.
There is no reason to believe that IF Glavine is healthy (no guarantee of that), that he can’t provide for the Braves, what they signed him to do LAST YEAR. Innings and veteran leadership. He may be just what Jo-Jo needs to turn the corner.
As for the lineup? Lot of “if’s and but’s”, IMO and more than likely this team’s weakness when it’s all said and done.
No TRUE leadoff hitter. No power in the OF (Yet - that could change with a signing and Jeff being Jeff of 2007), no guarantee that Chipper stays healthy, and if he’s out, who fills in for him.
Most of all, no guarantee that if guys are struggling (like a certain RF), that Bobby will actually do the right thing and sit his azz down.
Best case scenario, EVERYTHING that went wrong last year, goes right this year and we’re a wild-card contender (if Smoltz was here and healthy, I’d say division winner, but alas…).
Worst case scenario, ALL of the “if’s and but’s” don’t pan out and we finish in the neigborhood of the Nats, rather than the Mets and Phillies, and we have ANOTHER Top 10 pick in the 2010 draft.
After saying all of that (which is about as much optimism as you should expect from me with the off-season we’ve had), I’m still pizzed that Smoltz isn’t gonna be here.
I’ve just gotta gut feeling we’ll be watching the him DOMINATE for the Red Sox in October, and that’s gonna SUCK. Especially if we wind up being a “John Smoltz” away from contending.
If we’re way out of it, of course I’ll root for Smoltz to pitch well.
But I no longer think he was the victim in all of this. More like the instigator.
Like I said yesterday (Thursday), Wren isn’t the victim. Smoltz isn’t the victim. The fans are. NEITHER of them owed eachother anything. But they BOTH owed the fans to try and make Smoltz retire a Brave.
Wren says he tried to make it happen. Smoltz says he didn’t and that he wanted tto stay.
3 sides to every story. My guess is that we’ll NEVER know the real truth.
I’m still not spending a PENNY on anything that Liberty Media is “selling”. Earlier today (right before the other blog crashed), I posted a link to ALL of the companies that Liberty Media owns and runs.
If you’re still pizzed at ownership, yet STLL want to continue to support the Braves PLAYERS, feel free to look up what companies they own (QVC, HSN, Expedia, Ticketmaster - to name a few), and boycott the hell out of them. It’s what I plan on doing.
Go Braves in 2010!
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 1:34 AM | Link to this
Tomas you also forgot Soriano’s raise about 5 million and McCann’s raise too.
By Anders
January 10, 2009 1:36 AM | Link to this
CT
This has been the worst offseason for the Braves that I can ever remember
Actually it’s not. 1977, 1983, 1984 and 1987 were all worse.
(Shhh. I’m just trying to see if KC takes the bait to prove me wrong and spends all night researching these off seasons).
By uga-brave
January 10, 2009 1:43 AM | Link to this
bubdylan,
press conference, we have just signed kawakami, “we promise this japanaese tosser will provide many braves fans with many happy endings.” smilin frank.
sushi, sake bombs, and massages in aisle 105. me love you long time.
By CT
January 10, 2009 1:47 AM | Link to this
I understand Anders, luckily for me I was born in the 80s and can only remember being a Braves fan during the “glory” days of Atlanta Braves baseball. But I have heard horror stories from my dad who has been a devout Braves fan for over 50 years and I pray to God I never have to see those days as a Braves fan.
By Bubdylan
January 10, 2009 1:50 AM | Link to this
uga-brave, lol!
By kirkinga
January 10, 2009 1:51 AM | Link to this
Well said Wayne, KC has been fighting the good fight against a blog teaming with professional complainers and serial doubters.
I would just like to add that the proper way to evaluate Frank Wren and is how the team performs. Until the season concludes we can’t tell whether any move mad, or not made, was correct.
By the way, who do you fire-Wren propose to replace him with? That little detail seems to have eluded the attention of the mob.
Funny how no sooner had you predicted what people would say than certain posts began to appear.
Anyone who bashes Wren(which is your right to do), and doesn’t mention the impact of injuries in 2008 is not telling the complete story.Injuries more than performance was the main culprit for the Braves decline to 90 loss team.
Smoltz wanted out and it’s very sad, but it is reality.
I know it’s too much to ask right now, but how about folks wait until the season actually starts and we get a look at how the perform on the field rather than how they look on paper in January?
I’m excited, I think the guys are going to be playing with a chip on their shoulder and Bobby is going to want to show something too.
What a shame so many have already given up.
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 1:54 AM | Link to this
Dixie The drugs gives me liberties I would not normally take.
I am not sure if I explained my predicamet, but I will take the liberty to do so. (I truly don’t remember what I might have posted)
On Monday, I awoke with a bad stomach ache, that got worse Monday night, and kept me up a significant amount of time. Went to doctor on Tuesday. Nothing conclusive. Went back for more test on Wednesday (blood work and CAT scan), and within 2 hours, I had my appendix removed. Got home a bit before 11pm, well acquainted with Pecocet at that time. Blogged late into the night the last two nights. Hope I didn’t tick off too many that disagreed w/ me.
Funny thing is, my oldest son, who with his wife, lives in our basement, had an emergency hernia operation on Saturday night. Our neighbors can’t believe our luck. Like I told him the other day, we are blessed, cause we are just fixin broke stuff.
Unfortunately, my sister in law, who lives w/ us, is suffering w/ stage 4 lung cancer, and is not going to make it. Makes it tough at times around our place, but our faith gets us through it all.
See, what drugs will drag out of a guy.
N8 I think I am close to being right on the Smoltz situation, but it doesn’t make me like it any more. I was counting on him as being the mid season guy to give us a push, if we were close to contending.
I definitely agree with your assessment of the season. It can vary from pretty good, to real bad. I guess that can be said for a lot of clubs, ie the Tigers of 2008. But, while most teams have a varied chance at succes, I think ours is more pronounced than most for reasons you stated.
As much as I didn’t appreciated Glavine for leaving for what I considered a minimal $$ amount, it would do my heart good if he had a good final year. Maybe he will be the one to give us the mid season lift.
In some ways, I would hope that this year would be the year that Morton and Reyes got a shot to prove that they can translate their skills to actual results on the field. They might never come around, but they do have the potential.
What scares me a bit about signing Lowe and Kamakawi (or whatever his name is), is that it might be counter productive to developing Morton and Reyes.
I really believe that if Hanson does in the Spring what he did in the AFL, he should be starting with the big club.
I am also OK with a one year rental for the OF, so long as we don’t pay too much for him. I like Ankiel and Nady better than Abreu, but not by much. Dunn, Swisher and Dye are lower on my wish list.
Dang, I am starting to get too long again.
By Unforgiven
January 10, 2009 1:58 AM | Link to this
A young Chipper Jones: [after witnessing his first teammate buddies leave the ballclub] It don’t seem real… how he ain’t gonna never play here again, ever… how he’s gone. And the other one too. All on account of a GM’s trigger.
John Smoltz: It’s a hell of a thing, dissing a man. Take away all he’s got and all he’s ever gonna have.
Young Chipper: Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming.
John Smoltz: We all got it coming, kid.
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 2:01 AM | Link to this
It always confuses me when so called “fans” say they are going to boycott the games and Braves merchandise and companies the owner owns. How exactly do you figure them having less money will mean they will spend more? Also, if you boycott there companies, why do you think they will think it has anything to do with the Braves payroll? Dont you think they will figure it is because of the slumping economy? How would they know its because you dont like their ownership of the Braves? Have you ever noticed an odd trend where the teams that sellout and make the most money spend the most? Did you ever noticed that funny trend in the end of the 90’s when our attendance started going down, our payroll stopped going up? Odd how that worked. Anyone who believes boycotting would actually work is uneducated and a moron.
By Unforgiven
January 10, 2009 2:02 AM | Link to this
John Smoltz: I don’t deserve this…to leave Atlanta like this. I have a nice house.
Frank Wren: Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it. [puts thumb on End Call]
Smoltz: I’ll see you in hell, Frank Wren.
Wren: Yeah. [pushes button]
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
January 10, 2009 2:03 AM | Link to this
Two NO-BRAINER predictions.
The Braves 2009 season is in the tank. Face it folks, the Braves cannot match up with the Phillies, Mets or even the Marlins. It is going to get worse before it gets better. Much worse.
And one question for the blog, who has the best pitching staff of all the teams in our division? the answer will surprise you.
The New York Yankees are doomed and they don’t know it yet. Those Rays and Red Sox are far superior teams. It’s not the the Bronx Bombers are a bad team, they have the same exact problem that our Braves have, which is an inability to match up with the two best teams in the A.L. East.
Rays: division winner. Red Sox: wild card and the Yankees are going to be left out in the cold.
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 2:09 AM | Link to this
CT I am probably about your dads age, and sorry to tell you, but I suspect that if you are a big Braves fan, you WILL go through some misery. What was done from the early 90’s until the mid 2000’s, was not normal for a team. I think those in the past 18-20 years have been spoiled a bit by the team’s success.
Who was your dad’s favorite player early on? I was a big Eddie Mathews fan, and loved Clete Boyer’s glove for the 2-3 years he played here.
N8 I am not giving up my Sprint cell phone plan. Besides, I really don’t see the corporate ownership’s foot print on the Braves in any real negative way.
I think that is just the youngsters here’s way of blaming the last few years on somebody. As I mentioed above, I think some of our fans have been spoiled a bit.
By uga-brave
January 10, 2009 2:11 AM | Link to this
so when bobby comes out to the mound and asks kawakmai how he is feeling in the fifth inning, and he asks heap what do you think?
heap just looks at bobby and says ” all i got out of him was no more yankee my wankee the donger need food, automobile shh bam”
heap just shrugs and says “skip thats all he said.”
By KC
January 10, 2009 2:15 AM | Link to this
Unforgiven:
John Smoltz: “I didn’t deserve this… to be treated like this!”
Frank Wren: “Deserve’s got nothin to do with it.”
By KC
January 10, 2009 2:17 AM | Link to this
From BRAVES.COM…
ATLANTA — The Braves are expected to make an offer to Derek Lowe early next week, but by that time they may have already added Kenshin Kawakami to their starting rotation.
Multiple Major League sources confirmed on Friday night that the Braves are nearing completion of a deal that would bring Kawakami to Atlanta to strengthen the middle of a rebuilt rotation.
Kawakami, who has spent the past 11 seasons as one of the top pitchers in Japan’s Central League, is expected to arrive in the U.S. on Sunday. At that time the 33-year-old right-hander and his agent, Dan Evans, are expected to move closer to finalizing their decision.
If negotiations continue to progress at their current pace, Kawakami could undergo a physical in Atlanta as early as Monday.
Though the Orioles and Cardinals have shown interest in Kawakami, the Braves seemingly emerged as the favorites earlier this week.
A source with knowledge of the negotiations revealed on Wednesday that Kawakami was impressed with the way the Braves have marketed themselves and the city of Atlanta.
Another benefit for the Braves is the presence of pitching coach Roger McDowell, who has shared a friendship with Evans for a number of years.
McDowell and Braves manager Bobby Cox joined general manager Frank Wren at Turner Field on Thursday afternoon to share a three-hour meeting with Lowe and his agent, Scott Boras.
While entertaining Lowe with a recruiting video that included clips from country music recording star Alan Jackson, the Braves got a better sense of what the veteran pitcher and Boras are seeking.
After completing preparations this weekend, the Braves could make an offer to Lowe as early as Monday. It’s still unknown whether they’re willing to provide the 35-year-old right-hander with a guaranteed four-year offer.
Right now it appears that the Braves are cautiously optimistic about the odds of landing Lowe, who is also expected to receive continued interest from the Mets.
Hot Stove
Lowe, who has averaged 15 wins and 208 innings over the past seven seasons, would provide the Braves with the front-line starter they’ve been seeking and allow Javier Vazquez to move into the second spot in the rotation.
As for Kawakami, scouts believe that he could serve as a reliable third or fourth starter while getting his first taste of Major League baseball.
Kawakami went 9-5 with a 2.30 ERA in 20 appearances (16 starts) and 117 1/3 innings for the Chunichi Dragons this past season. He missed nearly three weeks in September with a strained back and pitched most of the season in a six-man rotation.
Kawakami enjoyed a stellar season in 2004, when he went 17-7 with a 3.32 ERA and two shutouts. He was named the winner of the Sawamura Award, Japan’s equivalent of the Cy Young Award, and the Central League MVP.
There’s reason to argue that he was actually better in 2006, when he went 17-7 with a 2.51 ERA while posting career highs in starts (26) and innings (215).
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 2:20 AM | Link to this
I doubt it Coach. I would say the Yankees probably beat the Rays out. They added Santana and AJ, the two best FA pitchers and Tex the best FA hitter. Also how many times do we see a World Series team not make the playoffs. In 07 it was the Rockies, 06 it was the Tigers and the Cardinals, 05 it was the Astros and White Sox, 04 had nobody but we continue in 03 with the Marlins and the Marlins didnt fire sell til after the 04 season.
By N8
January 10, 2009 2:24 AM | Link to this
Guys, I keep thinking of one thing, when my thoughts go towards Wren. I don’t remember the GM in Seattle (Gillick?), when they dismantled the trio of Griffey Jr., Arod and the Big Unit.
But he essentially was brought in to do so. Ownership wanted a GM with no personal ties to the past.
Now Wren has been with the Braves and JS for a while. So he may have a “sense” of what those guys meant to Braves fans, he has been hired to lead this team into the next decade of Braves baseball.
I said it then, and I’ll say it now. JS got the hell out of Dodge in the nick of time (and I don’t think it’s coincidental, either). He’s not the one having his “image” stamped all over this one, even though I don’t doubt for a second that he had input on it.
Wayne
As for the stop-gap/1 year rental on an OF? I’m not sure who I like.
It could go a couple of ways. I like Swisher, due to his versatility and his being under control for four years.
Now, initially, one would want to NOT block Gorkys, Schafer and Heyward. But since Swisher is a switch-hitter, and can play all 3 OF spots AND 1B, that makes him very useful for a few years, AND being under control, he could be flipped or traded again after this year, if the kids have a rapid rise. Or he could be moved to 1B if Kotchman struggles.
If Wren wants to contend NOW, then I think Dunn is the best available option, because we need power. It sucks. Because if Francoeur was providing us with power, we could go after Abreu or a speed guy. But since Jeff gives us no guarantees of power, Wren’s almost forced into going after Dunn.
Here’s an odd twist to all of this. Though it would cost us some talent. I see that the Brewers are maybe looking to move Fielder. Is that an avenue to look into? I say know, I’d like to give Kotchman a chance, and I liked his defense from what I saw of it. But Fielder would provide power, and all us to go for speed and defense in LF.
Just a thought.
Dye wouldn’t be bad either, because of the RH thing. Just not sure if he’d want to play in LF. Who knows.
I’m WAY less worried about Wren solving the LF spot than the rotation. I think with our minor league talent, a decent “stop-gap” OF can be had via trade. Like a Nady. Just don’t wanna give up too much for him.
I’m also of the belief, that ONE of the young OF kids is gonna contribute sooner than expected.
But that rotation has to get settled and fast.
But I’m with you wayne on Jo-Jo and Morton. I really think that if Morton can get his confidence where it needs to be, his stuff is good enough. Jo-Jo? Not as sold on him. But either Hampton or Glavine would have helped him last year (by example - NOT sitting next to him in the dugout). So like I said, maybe Glavine is what helps get his career going.
I know Glavine has stated that Leibrandt was a huge help for him in 90 & 91. Not that Glavine wasn’t destined for greatness.
I’d love NOTHING more than to see our 2010 rotation consist of Hudson, Lowe, Hanson, Reyes and Morton. Wouldn’t mind another lefty in there. But beggers can’t be choosers, right?
Another guy I wouldn’t discount yet is Lerew. Maybe he NEVER comes back and amounts to anything, but he WAS highly touted before his injury and he’s still young (27). Who knows?
I think Hanson makes the opening day rotation, unless they sign Lowe, Japanese dude (I’m not gonna bother remembering his name until he’s a Brave), and Glavine makes it back. Then they’ll bring him along slowly.
But if ALL of those fall through, I suspect he’ll be in the rotation from the get go. Especially if he’s dominating in late ST.
By uga-brave
January 10, 2009 2:25 AM | Link to this
for all the venters that have been around lately, i ask you this.
are you really not going to go to the ballpark anymore?
among four of us we split the 81 home games that means 20 or so games for all of us.
even if the braves won 40 games a year i still think we would keep doing it.
for me there is nothing better then a friday night, eating a couple of pieces of fried chicken in the green lot and going into the game with a bag of boiled peanuts and drinking a bunch of bud’s.
spring and summer nights dont get much better.
the shock of the smoltz thing will linger. our current g.m. might not get it, but i will always enjoy BASEBALL.
then again, after about the fourth inning….
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 2:26 AM | Link to this
Eric When I lived in Decatur, Illinois in the mid 90’s, the workers at the Firestone plant were on strike (remember the bad light truck tires of the last 90’s, they came from that plant). They had signs on their lawns asking people to boycott the Bridgestone/Firestone products. “Now that will get you back to work quickly, huh!”
Coach I too think 2009 could be a challenging year for the Braves, but the optimist in me will ALWAYS seek out ways that could allow them to prove the critics wrong: What if Kotchman, KJ, Escobar reach their potential.
What if Chipper plays 140 games, instead of 100. What if Frenchy rediscovers his swing of 2005/2006? What if Schafer, Hanson and one other rookie come on like McCann and Frenchy did in 2005.
What if Moylan comes around, Soriano’s elbow is healed, and Gonzo holds up? What if either Morton or Reyes show for a full year, what they did in half their starts last season (their good starts).
What if we have no more than one starting pitcher with injury issues in 2009, and what if they are not severe.
Wouldn’t Campillo, Bennett, Acosta and Boyer be decent pieces to the staff, if they are not overworked.
I apologize for being the eternal optimist, but that is how I am…
(Marlins?? Is that your answer?)
By CT
January 10, 2009 2:26 AM | Link to this
Wayne you hit the nail on the head, Braves fans (especially my generations’) have been spoiled by the team’s recent success. but im glad i at least grew up during a time when the Braves did have so many great years. my heart goes out to all the Royals fans. as for my dad, he was a HUGE Matthews fan early on but his favorite of all time was Dale Murphy.
By kirkinga
January 10, 2009 2:28 AM | Link to this
Eric from MO, I think most of the fans” saying those things weren’t attending games in the first place.
Either that or their primary loyalties are with some other team and the Braves are an afterthought.
By kirkinga
January 10, 2009 2:29 AM | Link to this
N8, glad to see you’re still around. :)
By KC
January 10, 2009 2:35 AM | Link to this
N8: “I’d love NOTHING more than to see our 2010 rotation consist of Hudson, Lowe, Hanson, Reyes and Morton.”
Ya know… that Jurrjens kid is pretty good. =)
By KC
January 10, 2009 2:37 AM | Link to this
kirkinga: Agreed.
I’ve been back in the ATL area for a few years now after 14 years in Texas, and I love being near the Ted. I will continue to shop up… Smoltz or no Smoltz.
Smoltz made his decisions and moved on. I burned my Smoltz jersey in the back yard fire pit last night and moved on as well. Let’s go Braves!!!
By N Nine (Smoltz will be missed)
January 10, 2009 2:42 AM | Link to this
does anyone else find if odd that they offered Mike Hampton more guareenteed money than Smoltz Eric from MO
I may not be the best pretend GM but I’m withERIC, and do that bet any single day.
I’d offer Smoltz more than Hampton. Any DAY
This is john freakin smoltz, the mann that will do just about anything to get the ball..I bet he’s starving to pitch.
ITS the Smoltz’s drive that beats Hampton. I cann care less he’s attach to screws and is older. Very rarely you ignore the facts but….
Hampton will never match Smoltz’s desire and intensity . Theo Epstein is one smart GM!
Braves Near Deal For Kawakami That would get me excited a few months ago, BUT “near a deal” is never a given as we learned the hard way……
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 2:44 AM | Link to this
CT Murph was also one of my fav’s. In fact, when I won my Wurlitzer (first winner, after DOB) a couple of years back, I received my award as a Lew Hartman “Murhpy” drawing. It hangs on my office wall as we speak.
Murph was the real deal, as true class act. While not quite as competitive as Smoltz, I don’t think Murph would have left the Braves the way Smoltz did. In fact, he fell on the sword for the team, suggesting that it might be the best for the team if he were traded.
The print is getting fuzzy. I am not too long for the night. Last night, I was falling asleep between paragraphs
Just watched Lincecum on MLB Network on Direct TV. I sure wish we could pick up Matt Cain. (or pry Ryan Freel from the O’s, that would make me happy…)
By N8
January 10, 2009 2:51 AM | Link to this
kirkinga
You and Wayne might be the only ones. LOL!
It’s really a matter of who I believe. Right now (and that could change), I believe Wren. I believe him that they were looking out for the best thing for the team, yet gave Smoltz an incentive heavy contract that gave him around 3 million guaranteed for his “effort” if he got hurt, and would be a VERY fair price had he pitched like he did two years ago.
Now… when they made that offer, I don’t know. Was it a last ditch effort, once they knew he was gone?
Wren claims the Braves were the FIRST to make an offer in December (was it the “final” offer, or was it a really low-ball offer?).
When it comes right down to it, I think Smoltz actually wanted to leave (based on what has transpired this off-season for the Braves). In October, I think he had ZERO intentions of actually leaving if healthy. Nobody thought he would. I certainly didn’t.
Thought the whole time, that he and his agent were blowing smoke, like he’d done in the past.
But he’s too competitive, to go through this rehab and play for a loser. Sadly enough, a healthy John Smoltz might be a BIG difference in a team being a winner or a loser. I’m sure he realizes that. But a healthy John Smoltz might also be what makes the Red Sox a WS contender instead of the 2nd or 3rd best team in the AL East.
After weighing in on all the things I consider to be “facts” (though some of it had to be speculated on - like whether John wanted to leave), how on earth can Wren and Liberty Media be blamed?
Smoltz is no different than Peavy, Burnett, Furcal and possibly Lowe. Dude wants to win. They all chose to NOT play for the Braves. Maybe the writing on the wall was too big for him to ignore this time and as painful as it was/is for him to leave, it’s what he HAD to do.
Is Smoltz “above” calling Chipper and painting a different picture than really happened to save face with his teammates?
I don’t know the guy personally. DOB would have to answer that, though I’m not sure he could/would.
Anyhow. My 10 year old has a B-ball game at 9:00 (7 hours from now), I need some sleep.
L8r all.
By N Nine (Smoltz will be missed)
January 10, 2009 2:54 AM | Link to this
10. RHP Craig Kimbrel. Never heard of the guy. No one ever talks about our tenth best prospect. Glad we have an improving system down in the farm
By N8
January 10, 2009 2:55 AM | Link to this
KC
WOW. It is getting late if I forgot about JJJ. LOL!
My bad (hate that phrase). Maybe I was having a horrible flash-forward (for all you LOST fans), and expecting him to be recovering from Tommy John surgery.
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 2:56 AM | Link to this
N8,”I’d love NOTHING more than to see our 2010 rotation consist of Hudson, Lowe, Hanson, Reyes and Morton.”
No Jair??? Like I said earlier uneducated…
Good Night All!!!
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 2:56 AM | Link to this
N8,”I’d love NOTHING more than to see our 2010 rotation consist of Hudson, Lowe, Hanson, Reyes and Morton.”
No Jair??? Like I said earlier uneducated…
Good Night All!!!
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 2:56 AM | Link to this
DOB Are we going to get a music review tonight?
On rotations for 2010. If we sign Lowe, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Hudson’s option declined. Maybe try to sign him for a lesser contract, after which he would probably bolt.
Hanson, Lowe, Jurrjens, Kawakami, Vazquez (who I like a lot), Morton and Reyes.
I love a team having 6-7 possibilities going into the season.
N8 Yeah, we have Lerew and don’t forget guys who may be close, like Medlen, Rohrbough and Kimbrell.
I just updated my Braves spreadsheet, and it was damned sad to delete the “Smoltz” row.
By N8
January 10, 2009 3:07 AM | Link to this
Eric from MO
“No Jair??? Like I said earlier uneducated…”
Nope. Really frickin’ tired. I’ve shoveled/snow blown my driveway 3 times in the last 24 hours and worked 10 hours yesterday and today (and have the same ahead of me tomorrow). We’ve had more snow in the past 30 days, than in ANY 30 day stretch in our history. Living in ND, do you know how hard that is to do?
Global warming my azz.
I forgot to mention him. Plain and simple. If you want to call me undeducated. Fine. It was a mistake. Plain and simple. Sorry to drain any intelligence out of you by blogging.
It certainly wasn’t worth posting twice. :-)
By kirkinga
January 10, 2009 3:10 AM | Link to this
N8, I think you’ve got it right as to who to believe in this matter. My own thoughts evolved along the same path.
As more details come out I don’t the”huge discrepancies” that Smoltz was talking about. I think McGuirk’s comment about “not know what’s going on with John right now” was the most telling.
He doesn’t make statements like that and for him to say something like that leads me to believe they were genuinely surprised that Smoltz felt the BoSox offer was worth leaving for.
I still believe if he pitches well this season he’ll return to the Braves next season, assuming there is a spot in the rotation for him.
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 3:12 AM | Link to this
N Nine this might be my last post, but go to the Braves site, pull up the Myrtle Beach stats, and click on Craig Kimbrell. 20 years old, out of Wallace State CC. Pitched at Danville, Rome and MB after being drafted this past summer. Pitched in 24 games total, 35 innings (he is a reliever), with 15 walks and 56 K’s, and an ERA of 0.51.
He could come up fast.
I am watching the first game of the 1996 WS, and just watched Andruw hit his dinger for his first AB.
By N8
January 10, 2009 3:14 AM | Link to this
Wayne
I would think many things would factor into Hudson’s option being declined.
1) If he comes back at all this year and looks good. One could assume he’d be back to his old self in 2010.
2) If Hanson, Jo-Jo or Morton DON’T pan out, he’d still be needed.
3) If the team is in the thick of it this year and is an “Ace” away (again) from taking the next step, they’d surely keep him around.
4) MOST of the young guys that either would already be up, or coming up would be playing for the league minimum, not to mention guys like McCann and Kotchman are locked in at reasonable rates.
5) If Chipper is re-upped that will be a big factor as well.
6) If LM truely does allow payroll to climb.
OK. This time I’m really going to bed.
Goodnight all.
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 3:17 AM | Link to this
N8 I feel your pain…..on the snow thing.
I live up on the bench of the Wasatch Range, about 500 ft above the valley floor. If it snows, we get it. Hang in there! One thing to look forward to is your kids getting old enough to help out!
By Ericchipper
January 10, 2009 3:24 AM | Link to this
I think Hudson will bounce back and hope the braves sign him to an extension once he proves he is healthy cause he is better than all of the pitchers we have and could possibly have w lowe and kawakami and its a numbers game, so say we sign both, lowe jj javy kawakami and hanson, where does that leave huddy for 2010 and beyond
By uga-brave
January 10, 2009 3:25 AM | Link to this
so cox walks out to the mound in the fifth inning to ask kawakami how he feels.
cox looks at heap and says “heap what’s he got left.”
heap shrugs and says, “skip all he keeps saying is donger need food.”
cox walks back to the dugout, puts in a cope and thinks to himself, maddawg, smoltzie, aves, glav, millwood, neagle, ortiz, liebrandt, and huddy.
who in the heck is the donger. looks to his right, leo aint there for a colorful metaphor. all bobby can do is click his heels and say “there is no place like home.”
By FRANK SUCKS
January 10, 2009 3:40 AM | Link to this
FIRE FRANK WREN NOW!!!!!
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 3:54 AM | Link to this
Frank Sucks
Get a life, azz wipe, or at least post something intelligible. You’re boring me.
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 3:55 AM | Link to this
Andruw sure looked good 12 years ago, during the 1996 Series.
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 4:12 AM | Link to this
uga We have some bloggers who speak Japanese. Heck, I could learn Japanese if necessary.I wonder what the Braves would pay me to be their interpreter?
I could be Bobby’s bench coach! Now, were talking about a dream come true!
It’s the drugs….
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
January 10, 2009 4:25 AM | Link to this
Wayne, that’s a lot of what if’s.
Yep, those Marlins are loaded with pitching. If they ever learn to play decent defense, look out.
Bobby Cox wanted Escobar gone. I can’t wait for this soap opera to play out when these two meet in spring training. The fur is gonna fly.
I’ll say it again. Frank Wren disrespected Cal Ripken Jr. and did the very same thing to John Smoltz. Frank Wren has dissed two of the most competitive, intense Hall of fame players to ever set foot on a baseball diamond. The man does not learn from his mistakes.
To defend Frank Wren is to embrace mediocrity. He made the choice to not match the Red Sox offer. The blame and responsibility for this decision lies at the feet of our GM, he made it easy for Smoltz to walk.
Smoltz wanted to play for a winner, that should be a clue as to where our season is headed.
Scott Boras has our GM by the balls and he’s gonna squeeze every last penny out of the Braves if they are to have any hope of signing Derek Lowe. The Braves are desperate to make a splash and everybody knows it.
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 5:01 AM | Link to this
Coach Definitely agree that I threw out a lot of it’s. Like I earlier stated, I think 2009 will be a definite growing year.
In Baltimore, if I remember correctly, Ripken was late and holding up a team flight, when FW ordered it to go.
In my book, I don’t see the problem. Superstar or not, players have got to respect the rules or you have anarchy.
As for Smoltz, I have a theory that the Braves FO decided to make a fair offer (and I defy you or anyone to tell me that 5 million guaranteed with 60 days on the active roster is not a fair price for 1/3 of a year minimum) and if John was not happy with it, then hold firm and let him walk. I really believe the Braves are trying to build from within, by holding onto their core of young players.
So, while I hate to see John Smoltz go, sometimes it’s better to cut out the deadwood, before it becomes a greater problem.
I suspect after he saw us miss out on Peavy and Burnett, he decided to bolt.
To be honest, if you think the inability to sign Peavy, Burnett or Furcal are Wren’s fault, then I don’t think we will ever agree. Sometimes a GM or a team just has some bad luck.
I prefer my team to exercise restraint instead of becoming the Yankees of the south.
I agree that Boras is in a good position with Lowe, although he only has 2 teams chasing him. If we end up losing Lowe, I think the blog will be on fire with FW haters, but for me, I will look at it as a chance to develop from within.
BTW, on another subject. I read somewhere tonight that Adam Dunn as lost 20 pounds. Anytime a player does that, I am impressed. Might he be our target for the outfield? We could probably do worse.
Again, I think we will have to agree to disagree on who is to blame for Smoltz leaving. I say it is John’s call. The Braves offer would have put him at 5 million, if he had stayed on the roster for 2 months. If you believe in yourself, what’s the problem with that scenario. Besides, all this talk about wanting to play for Atlanta is probably a load of bs.
I just don’t go for these prima donna’s needing to feel “loved” and not disrespected. That is a load of BS, if I ever heard it.
John just wanted one more shot at the ring. I have never betted against him in the past, but all good things must eventually come to an end. I have a gut feeling that this might be his last hurrah.
Good night, my friend. (I slept too danged long today, and even with the help of my meds, can’t seem to drop off to sleep tonight!)
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 5:30 AM | Link to this
Martin Prado and Francisley Bueno for Xavier Nady.
Sign Lowe and Kamakazi.
Call it good, and let’s play ball.
Tell Andruw if he comes to camp at under 200 pounds, we will give him a minor league contract and a shot.
If he comes in at 201, send him packing.
By Wayne in Utah (Home of the #1 College Football Team)
January 10, 2009 5:51 AM | Link to this
BTW, can you say 13-0???
Can you say beat 4 ranked teams?
Can you say took Alabama to the woodshed?
Who was it that barely beat Alabama in the SEC championship game??? Oh, wait a minute, that was the Gators that are the supposed National Champions.
The BCS is a huge money grab. I hope they get investigated, and are made to come up with a playoff scenario, so that the REAL National Champion can be determined.
Until that happens, many across this country will not recognize Florida as a National Championship team.
Damned money grabbing crooks!
By Serbok
January 10, 2009 6:09 AM | Link to this
Hello~ To All~~~ I havent posted in quite some time~ however~am still a Reader of the “Best Damn Sports Blog” in north America~if not the world!!! Thanx to DOB!!! Hate to say it guys:-( I have been a Bravos fan since 1966! I was 8 years of age at the time! Denver Lemaster? Ron Reed~ Cecil Upshaw~Pat Jarvis~The Beeeeg Boy Himself!!!!! Rico!!!!! Carty!!!!!!!!!!!!! Saw Hank Hit one out at Fulton County Stadium in Game one of a doubleheader! Second Game~ Willie”Say It Aint So Smoltzy” Mays Hit one out in the second game! I was a boy at the time! Memory I will Never forget! I have lived in Florida for 45 years~ and have been ~Still a Bravo fan! Ted’s gone~ Super Stations gone~ Smoltzy was not given ANY RESPECT! I’m now an American league fan! Young ~Exciting!!!!!! Forward thinking!!!!! Gonna open a can of Whoop A$$$$$ on the Yanks!!!!! Tampa Bay Devil Rays!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 Go Rays!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
By Bravo Nam
January 10, 2009 7:15 AM | Link to this
I love John Smoltz and was devastated by the news of his departure, but the reality is that if John had wanted to stay in Atlanta, he would’ve…and could’ve forced the Braves hand for more…I think the reality of the situation is that the Red Sox provide Smoltzy a much better chance of a pennant and to improve his WS stats…I think he was pretty relieved that the Braves guaranteed offer was less than the Sox, as it played into his hands. It would’ve been interesting to see what he would’ve done if the Braves guaranteed offer was much closer to the Sox…he wouldn’t then have had a handy pretext (lowball Braves offer) for departing to the Sox.
I still think that this doesn’t necessarily mean the end of JS in a Braves uni…if JS pitches well this year, the Braves may try and sign him next year…or if for whatever reason the Sox have a bad season, the Braves might even make a trade for him (I think that the opportunity for one of these scenarios would appeal to both JS and the Braves in terms of PR…and also allow JS to get an emotional send-off from his Atlanta fans).
By gotigers72
January 10, 2009 7:26 AM | Link to this
As far as bloggers wanting Dunn. Would it not make more sense to go ahead and put one of their prospects in the outfield and go that way instead of with a poor fielding outfielder that strikes out so much? I would guess Schafer is the closest to Major League ready, but would jumping Triple A be something he could do and be successful?
By YoungBuck
January 10, 2009 8:33 AM | Link to this
I’m not questioning Smoltz and how his throwing is going, but if the contract the Braves were offering was more incentive based than Boston (of course we dont know exactly what all the parameters of the contract were) but for about the same amount of money in the end, that just tells me that Smoltz himself could have question about him pitching this season.
But that’s not me betting against him nor do I blame the man for taking more guaranteed money. (I didnt hurt that they have been one of the best teams in the league for several years)
This is probably going to come back and bite the Braves in the @$$. He’ll start pitching in May; throwing in the low to mid 90’s with that nasty slider and they’ll make it to the playoffs and Smoltz will pitch well, etc……
By steveP
January 10, 2009 8:37 AM | Link to this
* DOB ** is Kawakami a #1 starter?
By GTgirl
January 10, 2009 8:42 AM | Link to this
DOB In your opinion…..
If Smoltz pitches most of the season, at least close to Smoltz like, what happens to him in the rotation in the playoffs and all there other pitchers are healthy? The Red Sox are not exactly lacking the the pitching area I mean they have been quite successful in the playoffs without Smoltz. He’s been so successful in the playoffs over the years it’s kinda hard to push him to the side for the others, but then again the others have done it for you before, it’s hard not give the ball to them instead.
By LTBravesFan
January 10, 2009 8:50 AM | Link to this
SteveP * DOB ** is Kawakami a #1 starter?
No he is not a #1, probably a 3 or 4. You might be able to say a 2 but nothing above that bc that might even be stretching it a bit. But would def. be a solid middle of the rotation guy.
By GTgirl
January 10, 2009 9:03 AM | Link to this
Wayne in Utah (Home of the #1 College Football Team)
Your telling us that you think if Utah played FL, that Utah would win?
I’m not arguing with you I’m just asking.
If you are wanting to look at best team in the country (yeah Utah beat four ranked teams, but so did UGA) FL beat 6 ranked teams, UGA, Fl State, South Carolina, Alabama, LSU, and Okhma.
By Coach Smith
January 10, 2009 9:04 AM | Link to this
If the BRAVEs want to compete THIS year..
SIGN LOWE- 15 mil per year
SIGN KAWAKAMI- 8 mil
SIGN ANDRUW- he will only cost 400k aand if he provides 15 hrs and 65 rbi that is worth the money
Sign DUNN- 8-10 mil short contract, or if you don’t like DUNN you can fork out 20+ mil for MANNY or work a trade for DYE
Still with the exception of signing MANNY, those move will only cost 33-35 million..if you have the 45 million they claim then you would actually have 10 million to take a flyer on SHEETS as well especially if it costs you JOJO and CAMPILLO to get DYE
You could reasonably with the money we have, have a rotation of
LOWE, JJJ, SHEETS, VAZQUEZ, KAWAKAMI
and a lineup of
ESCOBAR, KJ, CJ, McCann, DYE/DUNN, Kotchman, Frenchy, AJ
with that rotation (even minus sheets) and that linuep, with our bullpen, you can compete NOW
By GTgirl
January 10, 2009 9:09 AM | Link to this
Who were the the four ranked teams Utah beat?
TCU, BYU, Alabama, and………? cant remember the other
By Goodoleboy58
January 10, 2009 9:21 AM | Link to this
GTgirl,
If Smoltz pitches like Smoltz he will be the game 1 starter for the Redsox…. If Smoltz doesn’t pitch like he can then he’s probably not pitching in October anyway
By GTgirl
January 10, 2009 9:26 AM | Link to this
FL only had 3 games that were as close as 11 points (Ole Miss(lost by 1), Alabama(11) and Oklahoma (10)) Utah won by 2, 7, 3, 3, and 3 points. Every other win was by 20 or more I think.
By tr
January 10, 2009 9:35 AM | Link to this
After letting all the available information settle in, knowing there are things we’ll never know for sure, I’d have to say that I completely understand and even agree with Wren’s decision from a strictly baseball point of view.
HOWEVER
This was (or at least should have been) about a LOT more than just an if/when he-can-pitch/he-can’t-pitch question. John Smoltz is, was, and always will be more than just an aging, physically questionable veteran!
There are any number of ways this side of the equation could’ve/shoud’ve been addressed - from a splashy free agent presentation to a front office or coaching (personal-services contract) contingency plan if he cannot pitch a full season or cannot pitch effectively.
It did not have to be about guaranteed money or incentive money comparisons!
The bottom line is that the team could have and should have made certain that his only realistic response to free agent overtures from other teams would have been, “Thanks guys, but I’m an Atlanta Brave!”
By GTgirl
January 10, 2009 9:55 AM | Link to this
Goodoleboy58,
Not saying you are wrong, but you really believe that Smoltz would get the ball before Beckett and Lester? I have to think that one, if not both of those guys will get the ball before Smoltz. I could be wrong but both of those guys have been really good for Boston in the playoffs.
But hey if he does get the ball as a starter in the playoffs I would love to have him go up against the other team’s 3 or 4 guy.
Again… DOB What do you see happening with this situation?
By JerseyGil
January 10, 2009 9:55 AM | Link to this
Good news…..Javier Vazquez is pitching real well, Last night he won first Playoff Game in The Puerto Rico Winterball, His Team Ponce won 2-1,Vazquez 5.2 inn, 1 er, 5 so.
By Poco Fan
January 10, 2009 9:55 AM | Link to this
Just a thought if the Braves sign the Japanese guy. I vaguely recall reading somewhere that Japanese pitchers had trouble adjusting to MLB in America because we use larger balls. If this is so, would this guy need some seasoning in the minors to see if he can handle using bigger balls? (Insert an appropriate LOL as necessary when discussing larger balls.)
By Patrick
January 10, 2009 10:01 AM | Link to this
FIRE FRANK WREN FIRE FRANK WREN FIRE FRANK WREN
By Poco Fan
January 10, 2009 10:06 AM | Link to this
Just another thought and a question. All along the Braves said they had X amount (insert your amount here) of dollars to spend on free agents and/or trades. This did not include monies allocated to Smoltz or Glavine. Now that Smoltz is out of the picture, do they have more $$$ to play around with?
By Billy Pilgrim (Good luck Smoltzy & GO BRAVES!)
January 10, 2009 10:07 AM | Link to this
Signing Kawakami may solve two problems at once!
…think he could do that 30 or 40 times a season? :P
By Billy Walsh
January 10, 2009 10:08 AM | Link to this
Utah beat two very good teams… Alabama and TCU. I wouldnt put BYU in that category considering they lost to Arizona badly in the Las Vegas Bowl. I think TCU is better than Utah. Utah needed a touchdown with 48 seconds left to beat TCU. However, the best team in the country is USC. Unfortunately, they are never motivated enough against the lesser teams (Oregon state this year and Stanford last year) to go undefeated. Flordia against USC on a neutral field. Who wins? USC by a touchdown
By RonP
January 10, 2009 10:10 AM | Link to this
We always felt that Andruw was worth one run per game with his glove…anything we we get with his bat is strictly a bonus. Sign him up!
As for the free agents..don’t panic; the farm teams have good prospects and it’s worth the wait..Smoltzie was a great pitcher but right now he’s damaged goods.
Overall, the infield is solid, the outfield needs repair, the bullpen is strong and the starting pitching will develop.
By Poco Fan
January 10, 2009 10:11 AM | Link to this
Wayne in Utah—Thanks for mentioning Clete Boyer. He was my favorite as a kid. I think I nearly cried when he left the team.
By j salter
January 10, 2009 10:15 AM | Link to this
link to this eric from mo dumb to trade hernandez for nady-atlanta has a bus load of major league players on it`s 40 man roster and another bus load of potential major league players but not a car full of championship players!! if we can not sign nady to a contract - offer him arbitration. The worst you get is two draft picks!! Not exactly a one year rental!!
By YoungBuck
January 10, 2009 10:17 AM | Link to this
My question on Smoltz is if he says he’s going to pitch next year, and both contracts come out to be about the same after incentives and he would have taken less from the Braves, then why in the world would about 2 million dollars make a difference when he has already made more than 130 million from the Braves over his years with the organization. If he’s already spent that money then he’s not as smart as everyone says he is anyways.
By used cars
January 10, 2009 10:18 AM | Link to this
Smoltz was, is and will always be my favorite Brave…Going out there against those hated Yankees with absolutely nothing in ‘99 will always stand out…This is what he thinks is his chance to get another ring…I just wished he would have said that and let it go. That being said, I think we did the right thing is not committing to him when we knew he probably wouldn’t be back until June…He can serve as a midseason pickup for the BoSox when Penny goes down, but we need guys who are going to ready to go in April…I have wanted Lowe from the start, he’s probably the guy out there that is most similar to Smoltz from a character standpoint…If we can get him and Kawakami, then I like a rotation that can be culled from those 2, vazquez, jurrjens and your choice of Hanson, Morton, Reyes, Campillo, Medlen, Redmond and whoever else. The next step may be to showcase some of those younger arms and work out a trade with someone like the Brewers or Sox, or if they pick up some of the contract, Carlos Lee from the astros…We would look pretty good with a heart of the order of Chipper, Lee, Mccann and hopefully a rejuvenated Frenchie in the 6 hole.. These are not pie in the sky moves that we can only hope for, as letting go of smoltz freed 10m to go after other needs. If Wren can make these three things happen maybe everyone will get off his back and we can realize that we are comparable to the heartless Mets and the fat and sassy Phils
By memphisbraves
January 10, 2009 10:26 AM | Link to this
GOOD LUCK TO JOHN SMOLTZ. HE IS THE BEST EXAMPLE OF WHAT A TRUE ICON THERE HAS EVER BEEN. WE WERE VERY LUCKY TO HAVE HAD HIM FOR AS LONG AS WE DID. HE PITCHED HURT,HE WENT TO THE BULLPEN, AND HE DID WHAT MOST PLAYERS DONT’T DO ANYMORE, DID WHAT WAS BEST FOR HIS TEAM AND NEVER COMPLAINED. JOHN IS ATLANTA AND WILL ALWAYS BE A BRAVE. GOOD LUCK JOHN IN BOSTON, YOU’RE THE BEST. WHE YOU RETIRE THE BRAVES NEED YOU BADLY AS THE “NEXT VOICE OF THE BRAVES ” IN THE PRESS BOX. THE
By Bill
January 10, 2009 10:28 AM | Link to this
If Smoltz is pitching are not pitching in October, He is still a Winner and thats hard to find. If he never throws another pitch he’s a winner and should have some kind of job with Braves. Should take Cox’s job.
If Lowe comes to Braves, it will only be for the Money…thats sad.
By Bill Robinson
January 10, 2009 10:29 AM | Link to this
Wayne in Utah & Bravo Nam you are both on the money. Relax posters, we’ll do ok.
By bravedan
January 10, 2009 10:31 AM | Link to this
Chipper has a ranch in Texas so let’s trade him to the Rangers who need a third baseman along with Jo-Jo Reyes for 1B/3B Chris Davis{future mega star} outfielder David Murphy{solid go-getter} and C. J. Wilson a lefty for our bullpen. What do you think David O’Brien?
By Mitchie-san
January 10, 2009 10:35 AM | Link to this
Poco Fan, I am sure he already has picked up a MLB ball and tossed it a few times. I would like for that to happen if I was gonna give him millions of dollars to pitch for my team. Daisuke didnt need any time in the minors before he started. He will probably get the hang of it in Spring Training, if he hasnt already.
By used cars
January 10, 2009 10:39 AM | Link to this
The comment by Bill about Lowe is sort of funny, since everyone seems to say that the only reason Smoltz (even himself) left is the money
By Matty Brave
January 10, 2009 10:46 AM | Link to this
Hold the phones and step back from the ledge. It is a big IF, BUT if FW can someone manage Lowe, Kawakami, Dunn (or another LF with pop) and maybe sign Andruw to keep center warm for another year, we MAY actually compete. Come on Frank we have been more than patient. GET IT DONE!
By N8
January 10, 2009 10:59 AM | Link to this
“If Lowe comes to Braves, it will only be for the Money…thats sad.”
Or… it could be that he came to Atlanta because they “showed him respect” and didn’t underestimate his value. LOL!
Isn’t that one of the reasons Smoltz left?
Also, (and for the record, I don’t really believe this is a reason Lowe would come here - but since players USED to think this way, I’ll type it anyhow), whatever happened to a guy having enough confidence in HIS ability to make a team better and take them over the top?
Baseball (and all sports for that matter), are filled with cowards that would rather take a backseat, then be RESPONSIBLE for making a team better (or worse). Does the name Kyle Farnsworth mean anything to anybody? Was offered the Braves closer job, but he chose to be Mo Riviera’s setup guy.
THAT is sad. When I played sports earlier in my life, no matter how good or bad I was compared to the rest of the team, I ALWAYS wanted the ball in my hands. Winning was nice, but riding somebody elses coat-tails isn’t much fun.
Aparently Smoltz didn’t feel like he was a difference maker on a struggling team anymore. Never mind the fact that one of the reasons said team struggled last year, is because he only pitched in 6 games.
Before you all attack me for “flipping” on Smoltz. I’m not. But facts is facts. Regardless of what he’s earned, or done for the city of Atlanta and fans of the Braves.
The Braves stunk in 2008 because 4 pitchers couldn’t stay healthy enough to contribute, and he was 1 of the 4.
Period.
Now he wants to go help the Red Sox win. What’s SAD is that he may get a ring, without EVER throwing a pitch for them. Talk about selling your soul for a ring. LOL!
By Steve from OH
January 10, 2009 11:01 AM | Link to this
*Wayne in Utah, I wished I knew you so we could put a wager on who pitches more innings next year. I bet you if there was a nation wide poll on who thinks will pitch more innings 90% would say Smoltz.
So we would have another piece of info that means…absolutely nothing?
By Bill
January 10, 2009 11:01 AM | Link to this
used cars—What other reason would there be..his wife is big star in LA..etc but I do need a used car. Where’s your lot?
On Smoltz, I believe the word Respect * had more to do with it. Some people just don’t get it. I do *respect your opinion have a great day.
By NCBravesFan
January 10, 2009 11:02 AM | Link to this
I think for those of you who are expecting Huddy to be back with the Braves late this year or next - I would think if they lock Lowe down to a four or five year deal (we shall see), it makes it less likely that Huddy will be back in 2010. Remember, the club has a $1 million buyout for 2010, or they have to pay him $14 million to pitch if they exercise his option.
Not sure the Braves will want to pay that much for a guy in his mid 30s and coming off TJ surgery .. especially if they are shelling out some coin in a couple of other rotation slots, with some young arms to work into the mix.
By Canadian Braves Fan
January 10, 2009 11:07 AM | Link to this
DOB- great blogs, first time commenting. As bad as the offseason has been, if WREN can get Lwowe and Kawakami, plus a Dye/Dunn type of hitter they will be a contender. Pen looks solid, great infield
By Steve from OH
January 10, 2009 11:10 AM | Link to this
Has anyone watched the video sidebar on the official site about Weiters/Hanson? T. Hanson has a downright nasty slider. And it looks like doggone good command of the fastball.
By brent a.
January 10, 2009 11:10 AM | Link to this
Jersey Gil,
Thanks for the report on Vazquez.
That must be because he’s back in the National League. :)
By N8
January 10, 2009 11:11 AM | Link to this
“…since everyone seems to say that the only reason Smoltz (even himself) left is the money.”
I don’t think it was strictly for the money.
I think the fact that the Red Sox gave him the “repspect” to GUARANTEE all the money, and the schmoozing fashion in which it was given to him spoke volumes.
But I really think that it was/is about the ring.
Here’s the thing. And this has to do with the “sell” jobs that Theo and Frank are giving/gave to Smoltz and Lowe.
Theo Epstein, I’m sure convinced Smoltz that even if he couldn’t contribute all year, he MIGHT be what seperates the Red Sox from being contenders to actually being able to win the WS, with his post-season resume.
The fact is, is that unless the Braves added a BUNCH more pieces to the puzzle, Smoltz wasn’t gonna be that guy for the Braves. And since they have had trouble adding said pieces to the puzzle, Wren’s focus was elsewhere and John maybe felt slighted. Along with realizing that he wasn’t gonna be much help to this team. Kind of like when he sat in the bullpen going un-used in the post-season as the closer. Helpless feeling I’m sure.
Where with Lowe, (and believe me, you guys are right, he more than likely would be joining for the money), it is actually easier to be sincere, when telling Lowe that along with the addition of Vazquez’s innings, he is EXACTLY what the Braves need (an inning eater, that also is not afraid to take the ball in big games), to have even a REMOTE chance at post-season.
So considering where they are at right now in their careers and what they have to offer (assuming Smoltz will not be 100 percent ALL year), and where each team is in it’s bid for a WS title. Smoltz is a perfect gamble for the Sox, while Lowe is a perfect fit for the Braves.
Not sure about offering him a 4 year contract. But in the long run if it saves our bullpen arms and gives our young starters a workhorse to look up to, it would be a sound investment.
Still think that if Lowe is picked up, along with the guy from Loudness, that Smoltz might have been the difference maker for us, down the road this season. But……
By N8
January 10, 2009 11:11 AM | Link to this
“…since everyone seems to say that the only reason Smoltz (even himself) left is the money.”
I don’t think it was strictly for the money.
I think the fact that the Red Sox gave him the “repspect” to GUARANTEE all the money, and the schmoozing fashion in which it was given to him spoke volumes.
But I really think that it was/is about the ring.
Here’s the thing. And this has to do with the “sell” jobs that Theo and Frank are giving/gave to Smoltz and Lowe.
Theo Epstein, I’m sure convinced Smoltz that even if he couldn’t contribute all year, he MIGHT be what seperates the Red Sox from being contenders to actually being able to win the WS, with his post-season resume.
The fact is, is that unless the Braves added a BUNCH more pieces to the puzzle, Smoltz wasn’t gonna be that guy for the Braves. And since they have had trouble adding said pieces to the puzzle, Wren’s focus was elsewhere and John maybe felt slighted. Along with realizing that he wasn’t gonna be much help to this team. Kind of like when he sat in the bullpen going un-used in the post-season as the closer. Helpless feeling I’m sure.
Where with Lowe, (and believe me, you guys are right, he more than likely would be joining for the money), it is actually easier to be sincere, when telling Lowe that along with the addition of Vazquez’s innings, he is EXACTLY what the Braves need (an inning eater, that also is not afraid to take the ball in big games), to have even a REMOTE chance at post-season.
So considering where they are at right now in their careers and what they have to offer (assuming Smoltz will not be 100 percent ALL year), and where each team is in it’s bid for a WS title. Smoltz is a perfect gamble for the Sox, while Lowe is a perfect fit for the Braves.
Not sure about offering him a 4 year contract. But in the long run if it saves our bullpen arms and gives our young starters a workhorse to look up to, it would be a sound investment.
Still think that if Lowe is picked up, along with the guy from Loudness, that Smoltz might have been the difference maker for us, down the road this season. But……
By Canadian Braves Fan
January 10, 2009 11:11 AM | Link to this
As bad as this off season has been, if Wren can grab Lowe and Kawakami plus a Dye/Dunn type of hitter the Braves could contend
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 11:15 AM | Link to this
Just woke up, and saw someone asked if we signed Lowe would it decrease the chance of picking up Huson’s option. I doubt it. If anything it increases it. Many times a pitcher comes back stronger after Tommy John and with Lowe and Hudson we would be a contender. I think the Braves are building for 2010 when we have Huddy back.
By Steve from OH
January 10, 2009 11:16 AM | Link to this
N Nine, Kimbrel was drafted this summer and quickly made it from Danville to hi-A Myrtle Beach (I though we had a great draft of pitchers with Kimbrel, Francis, Devall, Spruill, and Hoover). I’ve read his fastball is about 97 and he has a good slider.
Check out his stats last season. Outstanding.
By oldbrave
January 10, 2009 11:21 AM | Link to this
Keep Kelly Johnson,and you will be happy. A. Jones is gone, no hit no defense and a so what attitude. Even at his prime he made me see red because of that idiot grin. Campillo, I don’t think he gets the respect he deserves for a good season.
By Moondog
January 10, 2009 11:23 AM | Link to this
The biggest crime in all of this is not that the Braves organization let down the fans, or even the team, but rather that they let down John Smoltz. He deserved an offer far better than what he received. He’s my favorite baseball player of all time, and I will continue to cheer for him as a member of the 2009 World Champion Boston Red Sox.
I will also continue to cheer for the Braves no matter what lame a* moves the front office decides to make. I cheer for the players on the field, and not the general manager or the “organization.” Go Braves!
By Bill
January 10, 2009 11:24 AM | Link to this
N8- agree with your 11:11 blog and Respect your opinion. Glad you didn’t leave as you had said. Got to go .
By ozzie
January 10, 2009 11:25 AM | Link to this
Gotigers
Dunn is not the second coming defensively but Schafer doesn’t project to be a HR hitter and as a rookie he will only have the occasionally long ball.
Dunn with all his warts will hit 40+HRs and drive in 100+ RBIs with his eyes closed.
That is more HRs than the current OF would hit in 2-3 years. Caveat - assumes JF still struggles which we need to assume given his history.
Dunn has gotten in shape and could be had for much less than envisioned 3mos ago.
Wren should pull the trigger on him and very soon - no more waiting around Frank.
By N8
January 10, 2009 11:29 AM | Link to this
Sorry for the double post.
My epics are long enough, without having to take up TWICE as much space.
By mbatl
January 10, 2009 11:37 AM | Link to this
All the talk about guys “retiring with the team they started with” is very romantic, but the reality of it is usually creates a pretty difficult situation. (Tony Gwynn, who performed well until injuries became a problem and then gracefully retired, is a great exception)
I don’t know how the Smoltz situation will play out… it just depends on how well he pitches this year and beyond. But I am in no way in favor of keeping players because they’re fan favorites, or because they’ll fill the seats.
Did fans come out in droves to watch Hank Aaron? Dale Murphy? Phil Niekro (the forgotten favorite among Braves fans, btw)? No - especially in their later years when they were no longer at their peaks.
Attendance through most of those guys’ Atlanta careers was awful because the teams were generally awful (with a couple of exceptions… Murph’s MVP years when the Braves were actually good). But the Braves led the NL in attendance in ‘92, not because they were loaded with legends or “franchise players” but because they were young, exciting and most importantly, winning.
Winning will fill the seats a lot better than limited performance from aging veterans.
Players like Smoltz, Glavine and Chipper tend to become so self-assured with their status that they begin to take liberties with the front office; I DO NOT LIKE it when they go public with their criticisms of their bosses.
I employ a handful of people, and no matter how talented they might be, if one of them went to the press to air out my company’s dirty laundry, they’d be gone. No questions asked. (not that the press would be interested and though granted it’s easier to replace a computer programmer than a major league 3B who just won a batting title, LOL).
I’m not advocating running Chipper out of Atlanta (he’s my favorite baseball player!) over his comments; it’s an understandable reaction, IMO, but still not the correct one. Or that veterans should be treated with anything less than respect (which doesn’t necessarily mean dollars). But the job of the players is to play; and the job of the F/O is to put the best team on the field possible with the resources available.
I’m sure the Braves will lose a few ticket sales because of Smoltz leaving, but I think that’s mostly emotional over-reaction (witness N8, who hasn’t left us yet!). I’d bet that if we’re in a pennant race through September, attendance overall will top the last couple of years and a whole new crop of Braves fans will develop.
By Steve from OH
January 10, 2009 11:38 AM | Link to this
Wren should pull the trigger on him and very soon - no more waiting around Frank.
I dunno I think the longer he waits the more the price goes down. That said, I think he needs to finalize Kawakami ASAP, then move on to Lowe and resolve that, and then worry about LF. The way I see it, even if Dunn signs before we take care of Lowe, there’s still Abreu on the market or we can pursue a trade. If Dunn/Abreu are still unsigned in two weeks or so, then I think FW has to move on one of them because the price will be very advantageous to us, I think.
And yes, Adam Dunn is exactly what this team needs from an offensive standpoint. Hopefully is lost girth will translate into better defense, but if Schafer is in center I think we can live with his defense, especially given his offensive production.
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 11:48 AM | Link to this
GTGirl-Oregon State, also the only team to beat USC, which many claim to have been best team in country.
GoodOleBoy58-Smoltz would never be their number 1 pitcher. They have Beckett and Beckett is far better than Smoltz now.
Bill Walsh,”I think TCU is better than Utah. Utah needed a touchdown with 48 seconds left to beat TCU.”
and all TCU had to do is not allow a touchdown in the last 48 hours. I hate when people say this team is better even though they got beat.
J. salter,”atlanta has a bus load of major league players on it`s 40 man roster and another bus load of potential major league players but not a car full of championship players!!”
When did Nady win a championship? Usually he was a loser. He even when to the Yankees and they miss the playoffs for the first time in 13 years. Have you ever actually looked at his stats? Why would we trade our fourth best prostpect, biggest trading piece, for someone who will give us .280 BA, .330 OBP, 13 homeruns.
Steve from Ohio, this is a blog of opinions. If only post of info that were usefull then there would only be 3 posts per blog. Why single mine out? Your a prick. Me and Wayne were just talking. Had nothing to do with you.
By sam
January 10, 2009 11:52 AM | Link to this
I say bring up all the kids, trade Chipper for more prospects, and let them all grow up together. I’d rather see young, hungry players learning on the job than a bunch of re-treads keeping their spots warm.
By David O'Brien
January 10, 2009 11:53 AM | Link to this
Believe it or not, I really think the Braves have reached an agreement with Kawakami. And not because a Japanese paper reported it.
(Those of you who think the Japanese papers never publish misinformation should recall last week when one of the biggest papers over there reported that Kawakami had narrowed his list of finalists to three teams, and Braves weren’t one of them. The agent let me know that wasn’t the case and that Braves were still squarely in the mix.)
After the Smoltz thing transpired, Braves stepped up all efforts on other pitchers. I think they’ll get Kawakami and have a legitimate shot at Lowe, despite what so many seem to believe is a preordained thing that Lowe will go to one of the bigger markets teams in the Northeast.
By Al from the "A"
January 10, 2009 12:01 PM | Link to this
DOB- Any link to the agreement? Any contract info? Thank you……
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 12:02 PM | Link to this
NCBravesFan, I disagree. Wren has spoken several times that he is working for a “dream” rotation of 2010 and that includes Hudson. A rotation of Hudson, Lowe, Vazquez, JJJ, Kawakami is almost a no lose. I dont think he would pass that rotation up. Plus there is also Hanson. We have Chipper’s contract coming up next year and I dont think he will be around in 2010. Which I think is best for the Braves and Chipper. He can no longer play a full season. You can not build a championship team around a guy who only plays 130 games at best. Also it would be best for Chipper’s career if he finished his career in the A.L. where he can DH and hopefully stay healthy and make it to the HOF.
By David O'Brien
January 10, 2009 12:03 PM | Link to this
Not saying you are wrong, but you really believe that Smoltz would get the ball before Beckett and Lester?GTgirl
No, not if Beckett’s healthy.
By N Nine (Smoltz will be missed)
January 10, 2009 12:03 PM | Link to this
DOB, that would be great!
Steve from OH, Thanks for the info :)
By Smoky Joe Wood
January 10, 2009 12:07 PM | Link to this
Hope you’re right about Kawakami, DOB. But you’ll forgive me if I wait til the press conference to count him in the fold.
Now ante up for Lowe (I think Boras will make him take the most money, not the best chance to win), make a reasonable Nady deal, and we may just be able to stay in the NL East race. If everything breaks right.
By BRAVES FAN IN PA
January 10, 2009 12:16 PM | Link to this
I grew a Braves fan in North GA and now live in the Philly area-the bottom line it comes down to is being healthy-You look at what the sillies did this year with the rotation they had- bottom line is everyone stayed pretty much healthy-if you would have told anyone a rotation of Hammels,Myers,Moyer,Blanton and Kyle Kendrick would be the Champions people would laugh at you-They stayed healthy-and I don’t care what team you are and take the top 3 of your rotation and not to mention the top of your bull pen with your set up and closers you are not going to win- also who would have be a 45 year old man is going to have 15 plus wins? If they are able to sign Lowe and keep guys healthy they will compete-Look at how healthy the sillies were this year they lost rollins at the start of the season-Yeah Myers went to AAA but they did not lose his services all together-lets see how good they have a set up man now since JC is out 50 games- they will miss him as he played a significant roll last year. I still think the Braves will compete this year.
By Smoky Joe Wood
January 10, 2009 12:23 PM | Link to this
I know “you can never have enough pitching” is #3 on the baseball cliche list, but I can’t help but wonder… if we are lucky enough to land both Lowe and Kawakami, do we end up blocking young guys like Morton, Reyes, and Hanson? The Braves have appeared to believe in the future of Morton and Reyes, hanging on to them thus far. Are they really helped by going to AAA? I gotta believe they’ll make room for Hanson, but it might take him a little longer to break into this rotation if it performs: Lowe, Vazquez, Jair, Kawakami, Campillo.
By dave
January 10, 2009 12:26 PM | Link to this
DOB,
i’ve got a couple wagers going with a buddy on kawakami and lowe. i guess 20M/3 and 45M/3, he took 13M/2 and 42M/3… care to take a guess?
this goes out to anyone else willing to play too.
just for fun guys, guess what they get signed for, while you still have a chance to guess
By David O'Brien
January 10, 2009 12:28 PM | Link to this
Smoky Joe, I don’t blame you….
I went back in and updated the Kawakami note, to reflect that there’s reason(s) to believe he’s coming.
By Doc Holiday
January 10, 2009 12:31 PM | Link to this
Eric from MO
Thanks for the info. Very useful.
Wayne in Utah
I think I got your point.
Good morning everybody else…… hope we start getting some of the good news we have been waiting for more than a month………..good luck.
By Longtime Braves Fan
January 10, 2009 12:32 PM | Link to this
You people don’t get it. the Braves will not win anything as long as Liberty Media owns the Braves. It is just a Tax Break for them. I can assure you that the people who are supposed to be running the Braves don’t call all the shots inspite of what they say(What would you say if you were in their position?). I cam see some A.Hole excutive at Liberty Media, saying “Why should we take a chance on a bad armed pitcher, call that idiot McQuirk and tell him.” The off season moves have been trrribly mishandled. My God, the 11 million dollar pitcher they got is just a journeyman LOSER. Wait and see. No one with any sense wants to play for the Braves. It is just a terrible mess. They had just as well play some prospects, as the winning is just not going to come. I just can not see how anyone can think they will win. Yes, I was watching them, way before they ever won anything.
By NCBravesFan
January 10, 2009 12:36 PM | Link to this
Eric Will be interesting to see what happens with Huddy. I think if the Braves are willing to lose Smoltz over $3 million, they’ll most likely decline the option on Huddy unless they are absolutely convinced he’s all the way back - and that the $12 - $14 million price tag makes economic sense relative to their other commitments (and whatever progress the kid pitchers make this year).
By Salty Dawg
January 10, 2009 12:37 PM | Link to this
My ever-evolving thoughts on the current state of the Braves:
Smoltz wearing a Red Sox jersey
I still don’t understand this from the Braves standpoint. Looking at the strictly from a risk vs reward point of view, Smoltz was heavy on the reward side of the equation. Given his history of returning from surgery impressively, his impact on the fans and teammates, the Braves desperate need for a quality, experienced starter, and his performance before getting injured last year, Smoltz was very much worth $5 million guaranteed. Worst case scenario is he gets hurt and the Braves are out $5 million, which is a drop in the bucket compared to what they’ve paid injured pitchers in recent years and presumably would have been covered at least in part by insurance.
Frank Wren
Has shown that baseball in Atlanta is purely business now. In my opinion he has irreparably damaged his reputation and fans will likely never stop calling for his head. While the Peavy, Furcal, and Burnett situations were seemingly beyond Wren’s control, his handling of the Smoltz situation cast a shadow of doubt over everything he touches. Fans will likely never trust Wren again and players probably don’t think much of him either.
Chipper Jones’ comments
I don’t blame him one bit for being p** off. He and Smoltz are cut from the same cloth and have the same history with the Braves, so I don’t think he expects to be treated any differently than Smoltz when his time comes. I think Jones expected to play for Atlanta until he retires and watching the Braves front office take an all-business approach to Smoltz probably makes him think they’ll do the same with him. And where he may have been willing to take a below-market offer from the Braves before, he may be less willing to do so now. The Braves have been fortunate to have a few of their biggest players over the last couple of decades take less money to stay with the Braves. Andruw, Chipper, and Smoltz all took below-market contracts at point in their careers to stay with the Braves. The way the Braves handled the Smoltz situation is a message that they don’t fully appreciate what he’s done for Atlanta. The Braves probably shouldn’t expect anyone to take a below market contract to play for them any time soon after that.
Lowe
Is he an “Ace”? Maybe not in the same sense as Sabathia or Santana, but he is the closest thing to an Ace available on the FA market. The Braves really don’t have an option other than to pursue Lowe aggressively if the intend to compete at all this season. Not signing Lowe is basically an admission that this is a rebuilding year for Atlanta. It’ll be interesting to see how it plays out. My guess is the Braves first offer will not blow his socks off, but will be pretty close to what Bora$$ is looking for. The Braves really have no other choice. If the Mets sign him the Braves will be fortunate to place 3rd in the NL East and have no realistic hope of cracking the top 2.
Peavy
At this point I’m thinking that Wren needs to swallow his pride and initiate discussions with Towers again. The fact is we just don’t have the offensive components to compete in the division unless we have superior pitching. Adding Peavy, Lowe, Vazquez, and Kawawhatever in addition to JJ, Campillo and a possible Hanson gives us a great rotation that can win low scoring games. It also gives us an abundance of pitching and opens up the possibility of then trading some of the excess pitching for a LF during ST. But this also means that Braves would have to get very serious with regards to Lowe and be willing to trade Yunel + whoever else it takes to get Peavy. It also sets up a rotation of Hudson, Lowe, Peavy, Hanson, and the best remaining option as a starting rotation in 2010.
Bobby Cox
My guess is that this is Bobby’s last year with the Braves, at least as manager. Previously I thought he would be here until he is ready to retire. Given the lack of consideration given to Smoltz, you have to think the Braves wouldn’t give such consideration to Cox. And with Smoltz gone and Chipper likely to be gone next year, would Cox even want to come back? Probably not.
By Steve from OH
January 10, 2009 12:38 PM | Link to this
N Nine, I went back and read through BA’s scouting report on Kimbrel and they have him sitting at 95, occasionally touching 98, and note that he needs to improve the consistency of his secondary stuff, but add that it profiles to be above average. They also like his makeup and mound presence.
Sounds pretty good to me. Hopefully he’ll be able to step in in 2010 at some point.
By LivininAL
January 10, 2009 12:38 PM | Link to this
I have read several times that when one removes the emotion from the Smoltz situation it might be the best move for the Braves. One thing that defines Smoltz and other winners is emotion. Take emotion out of the game and you have a mediocre effort with things as usual. When Smoltz took the mound, it was never busiess as usual; that is what I will miss.
By Andrew
January 10, 2009 12:40 PM | Link to this
why have their been no rummors that the braves might get griffey? he could help show the young outfielders the ropes … his father played here, so he has good memories, and we could give hima one to two year deal and it won’t hurt us to have another older statesman in the clubhouse with Chipper. this way we could possibly bring up one or two of those young outfielders - it would at least be exciting to have some youth in the ted again - think about what teh baby braves did in ‘05 (?)
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 12:45 PM | Link to this
Dave, I would say we will give Lowe 4/60million. It may seem high but its going to take alot to get him. He is a workhorse and a number 1 pitcher. Only one left. Also you got to remember Mets will bid it up just to make sure we dont get him. So if the Braves are going to get him its going to take alot.
By steveP
January 10, 2009 12:46 PM | Link to this
DOB….is it likely that Smoltz left because he wants a quick shot at another championship. Surely he knows he only has 1-2 yrs left and maybe he feels like the Braves will not contend within those 1-2 yrs. Maybe if AJ Burnett or Peavy had come, Smoltz stays…to contend??
By Bubdylan
January 10, 2009 12:53 PM | Link to this
To me, a Lowe-Vazquez-Kawakami offseason, if it happens, is the best thing less-than-Peavy that could have happened for the Braves. In fact, considering that getting Peavy would have meant losing Escobar, Morton, and maybe Locke, I’m not sure we’re not looking (IF they get it done) at the best offseason available to the Braves. And if losing Smoltz turns out to have been the catalyst for grabbing Kawakami and Lowe, I’ll take it.
However, if that happy ending is the one we get, what do we make of Wren’s performance? He was backed into a successful offseason? His failure to get what he really wanted (a sore-arm pitcher who turns it up in contract years and a Kotsayed-up SS hitting his down years) and his disrespect of a Braves Icon opened up some urgent spending… all resulting in an accidentally smart offseason? Uh… go Wren?
Oh, well, if it’s luck, I’ll take it. If we can get it. Please, Mr. Lowe… listen to Boras… take the money. (Anyone else think that Boras might be angling for a Lowe-ATL deal b/c it will gain Perez some leverage with the Mets?)
By Gibby
January 10, 2009 12:54 PM | Link to this
The reason why I believe The Braves get Lowe. Boras loves controling the market. But he loves controlling the market for all his players. which means Boras needs to get both Lowe and Perez a big deal. The only team willing to give Perez a big deal is the Mets but they will not offer Perez anything if the sign Lowe. So, for Boras to get what he wants, big deals for both Perez and Lowe, he needs Lowe in Atlanta and Perez to the Mets. For this reason I am optimistic about Lowe coming to the Braves over the Mets.
I also, love our prospects. We have not in a long time had two guys in Hansen and Heyward so highly regarded by Baseball America and Baseball Prospectus. For everyone that is comparing these guys to past prospects to come through our system they are making a mistake. As far as prospects go we haven’t had two like this since Chipper and Steve Avery. No gaurantee they save us but the odds are certainly better than with Morton or Reyes or Chuck James I am really going to miss Smoltz
By Ron Roberts
January 10, 2009 12:56 PM | Link to this
LivinInAL… part of the problem the Braves have had, in past postseasons, was the “removal of emotion” or the “button-down, business-as-usual” approach to playing the game.
It worked well over the course of a 162-game season, btu when you have 3-7 games at most to out-will an equally worthy competitor, you’d better come w/some emotion, ‘cause the other guys are playing with it.
It’s taken me a few days to step by from that ledge my friend since the Smoltz fiasco; (quoting 3rd eye Blind lyrics - DOB you’d be proud, though I’ve usually spoken against the litany of music-heavy commentary, here…haha) that being said, snagging Kawakami puts our rotation in this shape, role-wise…
ACE: unsigned
#2 (tie) Jurrjens, Vasques, Kawakami
3: (tie) Jurrjens, Vasquez, Kawakami
4: (tie) Jurrjens, Vasquez, Kawakimi
5: (pick’em) Campillo, Morton, Parr, Reyes, Hanson
One of those 5-spot guys will almost certainly have/need to be dealt soon enough, and we know it won’t be Hanson.
Some may disagree, but I’d have to believe some rotation-starved team out there might look at Jorge Campillo’s work last year and think he’d work for ‘em, right away, wouldn’t he? Especially if we’re going to get an OF/power-hitting one-year rental out of him… is there a fit for such a deal?
Of course, if we don’t get Derek Lowe, that #5 surplus all gets moved up a notch while we head to spring training with an “ace” battle between Jurrjens, Vasquez and Kawakami. I like Jurrjens’ work last year, but he’s not a stopper. None of ‘em are.
By Marty Perez
January 10, 2009 12:57 PM | Link to this
Like Smoky Joe, I’m not exactly thrilled that the Braves are going after both Lowe and Kurakami. We need to rebuild here and these moves seem to be in denial of that fact. I don’t want to see Reyes, Morton, Medlen, and possibly Rorhbough blocked. Any kind of long term success is going to require having a core group of young pitchers holding down the rotation.
By walkdaddy
January 10, 2009 1:03 PM | Link to this
Dave, I really enjoy your Braves Blog, but the format is really hard to read. I have to scroll through so much bs to get to your post I usually just give up. Hopefully in the future we can get a format where each one of your post is a clickable link and the comments and your follow-ups can be inside each link. Thanks
By Roach
January 10, 2009 1:05 PM | Link to this
USC vs UF neutral field I will take Florida. There defense may be just as good as USC’s. I think UF offense is a little more dynamic hence why I take them over USC. Utah vs UF I believe UF wins by at least 10. Alabama was uninspired and Utah basically beat them the same way UF did…with speed which UF certainly has the most of…
By Wayne in Utah (Home of the #1 College Football Team)
January 10, 2009 1:07 PM | Link to this
GT I haven’t checked all the posts since I went on my tirade last night.
Some background. I am a Clemson alumni and fan. I hated what Alabama did to us the first game of the season (they were certainly a much better team all around).
I pull for the local teams, because I live here, but owe no allegiances to any (U of U, BYU, Utah State, Weber State).
To be honest, if you look at the entire picture, and had an unbiased view, you might say that Florida is the best team in the country. The competition in the SEC and some other leagues is much more intense than here in the Mountain West (is that Utah’s conference name?).
This is no fault of Utah and BYU, because there just is not the concentration of poplulation here to support as many top college teams as there is in the south, midwest, northeast and west coast. Just the facts of the situation.
My biggest complaint is with the BCS itself. There have been many times when undefeated teams have not been considered for the national title, because of the “good old boy” BCS setup. Personally, I think it borders on being illegal, the way they dismiss any team that is not in a BCS league.
So, my point today is, probably Florida is the best team in the country, BUT, can you be sure that they could beat Utah on any given Saturday? I am not sure. I suspect Utah would lose 2 of 3 to the Gators. But we will never know.
Back in the early 80’s, two teams won National Titles due to having an undefeated season at the end of the year; Clemson and BYU. Were they truly the best teams in the country those years, who knows.
The BCS needs to move above the suspicion and get a system that can accommodate teams that might not normally be accommodated (Utah in 04 and 08, Boise State a couple years ago, remember one of the greatest bowl games in recent memory?, and was it Auburn or LSU a few years ago?).
Now I will go back and read all the posts.
Sorry about the football talk on the baseball blog.
By Young Does Not Equal Good
January 10, 2009 1:14 PM | Link to this
Anyone stupidly suggesting trading Chipper Jones is a huge prospects-hugger.
Like Wren is really going to do something like that after letting Smoltz go. A Chipper trade would probably end with Turner Field in flames.
By Ben
January 10, 2009 1:14 PM | Link to this
I also believe Boras is pushing for the Braves to sign Lowe, conditioning that the Braves make Andruw happy.
By Alan
January 10, 2009 1:19 PM | Link to this
Derek Lowe is 2008-9’s LAST GUY AVAILABLE who can at least pretend to be a #1 Rotation man (unless you happen to believe that Ben Sheets is healthy as a horse). Given that… — The Braves CANNOT afford to miss this one after missing on AJ… unless they want to finish 4th again. — The Braves cannot afford to let 1 or 2 million per year stand between the altar and the ring this time. — These points aren’t secrets: it’ll be at least 4 yrs. at $15 per and I would not be shocked if it were more.
All that (Lowe, Kawakami) and one more bat and they can legitimately say ‘we’re ready to take on the Mets and Phils.’
Then sign Tommy G. — if for no other reason than to be the second pitching coach and mentor that you lost in Smoltz.
By Bravesfansince69
January 10, 2009 1:21 PM | Link to this
I still remember the 70’s. Wren can’t be blamed for everything. There has to be a reason for a player to want to play in Atlanta. We have lost our edge. We will have to rebuild to get it back. I think Wren will look like a genius in August when Huddy is on the way back and Fooky and Smoltzie proved their injuries were too formitable. Especially if he signs Lowe and Kwhatever. GET NADY
By McFann O –[zzz]
January 10, 2009 1:24 PM | Link to this
Dang…whoever is in charge of the Braves’ “Official Site” is either really mean, or not up on team news.
They got their little add for Spring Training with the picture of McCann, but the real “catch” is the caption underneath it: “Don’t miss any Grapefruit League action this year. Spring Training tickets for Brian McCann and the Braves at Champion Stadium are on sale now.”
“Haha”…very “funny”.
By Anders
January 10, 2009 1:25 PM | Link to this
Young Does Not Equal Good
Anyone stupidly suggesting trading Chipper Jones is a huge prospects-hugger.
Your moniker is exactly why I have been touting that Chipper might ask Wren to trade Chipper, or at least refuse to extend his contract.
Guys like you keep forgetting these players have desires too and I doubt one of them is to sit through a rebuilding process in their later years. (See:Smoltz,John)
By mb
January 10, 2009 1:26 PM | Link to this
I would disagree with you By Young Does not equal good I think the Braves may consider trading Chipper near the trade deadline if they are not a contending team in the NL. This is the last year of his contract. Sell High and get some good young players for the future.
By The Artist Formerly Known as Too Hot For Teacher
January 10, 2009 1:28 PM | Link to this
Why is everybody still going off on how great Dunn is?
He plays crappy defense and his hr and all the other stats people keep throwing out are garbage because he did most of that in a little league park in in Cincy….if he comes to atlanta we are paying at least 10 mil for a .235 avf, 25-30HR, and 85-95 rbi. Couple that with the fact he can’t catch a cold in the OF and has the range of a nursing home patient while striking out a lot and it’s not worth it.
All of this would be fine if he we got him for a couple of mil - but not the 10-15 million that he’ll cost.
If we want a sub .250 power hitting OF I say take the chance on Andruw - not because I necessarily want him back but because he can essentially be had for league minimum. You’re getting the same returns while the Dodgers pay 99% of it.
I won’t believe anything about Lowe or this Kawakami guy until the press conference is held. We’ve been burned too much this offseason - although I do hope they’re true.
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 1:29 PM | Link to this
Marty Perez,”Any kind of long term success is going to require having a core group of young pitchers holding down the rotation.”
You know what, I would be willing to live with that for long term success.
For everybody saying we are blocking our young pitching prospects, think about it. How many teams make it through a whole using 5 starters. The Braves used 11 last year. These young guys will get their chance. Also can we stop talking about blocking Reyes. The dude has come up several times the past couple years and has shown no signs of doing anything. I think at best he may be a decent mid reliever. Probably not even that. He cant hit the strike zone and his stuff isnt that great. I know he dominates the minor’s but that may be all he will ever do. Im not a Morton fan either. Last year was his first good minor league season. He did nothing in the bigs, but I will give him a pass on that since he was supposedly hurt. Every team has young pitchers, doesnt mean ours is any better, with the exception of Hanson.
By Gibby
January 10, 2009 1:30 PM | Link to this
Honestly, I would take Derek Lowe over Burnett any day. While Burnett might have a higher and is younger, his injuries freak me out. Lowe is one consistent SOB. I also firmly believe you do not get ACES in free agency. Although not heard of, we did get Maddux that way, players in free agency normally have some baggage of some kind.
The Braves need to develope an Ace. Which is why I am glad we did not trade our young pitchers. One or two of them Including Teheran (not for a while) will be what we need. If not the Braves are in trouble.
Go get Lowe
By Steve McP
January 10, 2009 1:30 PM | Link to this
If we do sign Lowe and Kawakami then we would be able to use Reyes or Morton (or maybe Campillo) as trade bait for an outfielder, we could also move Campillo back to the pen, which would make that lok strong.
If we have signed some good pitching in a week or so it may also give impetus to Ohman to ink his new contract, which would give us a pretty good overall pitching staff on paper, especially if Moylan gets back to anywhere near the level he was at before the injury.
Then in 2010 if Hudson is back to his best we would have a very good pitching staff, as I think (not certain) that none of them are free agents at the end of this season.
After all the disappointments so far this off season I am almost expecting things to go wrong again, but with a bit of luck we could get to Spring Training with a good looking squad and still have the hot prospects in the system.
By Cecil34
January 10, 2009 1:35 PM | Link to this
I wrote several weeks ago that if the Braves mis-handled the Smoltz negotiations that it would take on Favre-like dimensions for Braves fans.
Well, whatdoyaknow, Smoltz is gone, and the Braves’ front office is in full damage control mode, employing all manner of positive “good-faith” spin on this sordid affair.
I really suspect, as Braves fans should, that Wren and Co. are really breathing a sigh of relief. They never wanted to sign him in the first place.
They don’t have to go through the daily “can he - can’t he” circus that they went through with Hampton. It wears upon an organization that wants to discuss positives, not negatives.
Negatives do not sell tickets. It is all about the smoke and mirrors…
Now, I don’t know if John will hold up, but I don’t blame him one bit. How many of us would like to leave our current employer for a better deal due to lack of respect for us?
I know many Packer fans who would love to have Favre back, after watching Rodgers throw just as many picks as Brett ever did.
Well, you get the picture….
Like I have said before, hello Gwinnett Braves, you will be seeing a lot of me this year!
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 1:37 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan It is clear that Boras likes to control the market, as you state. I think if our offer is 15-17 million per year for either 3 plus a reasonable option or maybe 4 guaranteed, I think he will chose Atlanta. BUT, we have been burned before.
On that same vein, don’t you think Boras kinda screwed up by putting Tex in New York with the Yankees. I would have thought that would be the worst place to put him, and keep Manny’s market at it’s strongest position. In effect, he took out a major player for Manny, and now there is one, maybe two who will bid for him, and at this point, I think both LA and SF know they are in the drivers seat.
**Ron Roberts On Campillo, I think one of two things happened last season, or maybe a combo of both. He either tired, or the league caught up with his stuff.
I suspect Campillo would be a good 6th starter/long man. Also, if we could use him and Prado to get Nady, would you pull the trigger? I would. Nady is a 1 year rental, and to be honest, if our youngsters come along, within a year or so, there will be no need for Campillo. Also, anytime you can trade a utility infielder and get and outfielder with some pop, you do it.
Steve from Ohio I would love to see the Braves give guys like Schafer, Hanson, Heyward, Rohrbough, Kimbrell and others a REAL shot in the spring. Like Furcal had, and Chipper had, and Andruw had.
If the kid makes the team, let him play. Sometimes I think we coddle them too much.
What say ye?
By Eric from MO
January 10, 2009 1:38 PM | Link to this
Wayne,”Personally, I think it borders on being illegal, the way they dismiss any team that is not in a BCS league.”
Completely agreed, I have said several times that if I was Utah I would file a lawsuit against ever who is in charge of the BCS. The are discriminating against certain colleges. I believe that the BCS is stupid regardless, but cant not include certain colleges. Its same as in the back of the day not allowing black athletes to play in the championship game, which happened with that Buffalo college. This is discriminatng and I am actually angry Utah isnt sueing. For the record I could care less about Utah, since Im a Mizzou fan.
By brent a.
January 10, 2009 1:42 PM | Link to this
Wayne,
It was Auburn that got squeezed out of a national title shot after the 2004 season (USC beat OU in the BCS title game).
Ironically, you mentioned LSU - they are the one team who won a BCS title (2003 season) that people often forget to recognize.
That was the year that USC was voted #1 by the AP (beat Michigan in the Rose Bowl, IIRC, don’t want to look it up), and because it presented the beginning of their dominance, many people talk about USC having won back2back titles, and overlook LSU’s accomplishment in winning the “official” BCS crown.
I agree with your argument. We don’t know who would win if these teams play. No need to recycle all of the points that get made ad nauseum; but, I do like what they are doing out in Utah, questioning the legality of the system. That has a chance to be much more effective than the same old arguments that all of us can come up with and repeat every year.
If I were an AP voter, I’d have voted Utah #1. They are not undeserving, and there is no benefit (as an AP voter) in voting for Florida.
By Young Does Not Equal Good
January 10, 2009 1:46 PM | Link to this
I think the Braves may consider trading Chipper near the trade deadline if they are not a contending team in the NL.
And if the Braves extend Chipper Jones this offseason?
As for John Smoltz, the guy is 42 and coming off major shoulder surgery. No one wanted to see Smoltz leave, but no one wanted to see the Braves give him six million dollars to be a glorified decorative lawn gnome sitting on the bench and never pitching neither. If that happened, the same people would probably be screaming to fire Frank Wren because he is “too nostalgic” and “living in the past” and won’t get away from these old, hurt has-been pitchers and yak, blah, blah, yak, yak, drivel, drivel, drivel, drivel, drivel.
The Braves have Smoltz’s medical records. They took a risk: that he will not pitch a significant number of good innings in 2009 to justify a team without the second largest payroll in baseball (Red Sox) giving him 5,500,000 dollars….to possibly do nothing.
By Steve from OH
January 10, 2009 1:47 PM | Link to this
Uhh…Adam Dunn lead the majors in average home run distance, so yeah, I’d expect him to be at or near 40 HR in 2009, considering he’s hit exactly 40 HR in each of the last 4 seasons. I’ve seen the dude hit a home run in person, and let’s just say he doesn’t hit cheapies. That is exactly what this team needs. We don’t need another whole season of Blanco and Anderson sultanly swatting 3 homers apiece and slugging .350. Ain’t gonna cut it.
He’s also OBP’ed exactly .386 each of the last two seasons, which would also greatly help our offense. Bill James projects him to have a .913 OPS with 42 HR next year. This is exactly what our team needs right now. We have high average guys. We don’t have too much power right now. Dunn supplies gobs of power and will greatly help our team OBP.
By Mark
January 10, 2009 1:53 PM | Link to this
DOB,
Any word on the bat the Braves are pursuing? Would it come FA or via trade? You mentioned Dunn in the above article, with the Burrel offer being on 8 mil per year would be Braves mimick that offer or go to about 10 mil per?
By NC Braves fan
January 10, 2009 1:54 PM | Link to this
Went to check Kenshin Kawakami’s stats…on the bottom of his Wikipedia page (granted, not the horse’s mouth) it says:
“He has also just signed with MLB team Atlanta Braves to a two year fifteen million dollar contract. They will announce it tommorow.”
Could there actually be good news in Braves Nation?
By Andrew
January 10, 2009 1:59 PM | Link to this
I repeat - sign Griffey to a short term deal.. He would be a good influence on the young center fielders and Heyward. What we lost in Smoltz - we could get back in a part time elder statesman in the oUtfield - one that would play everyday.
By Steve from OH
January 10, 2009 1:59 PM | Link to this
I would love to see the Braves give guys like Schafer, Hanson, Heyward, Rohrbough, Kimbrell and others a REAL shot in the spring. Like Furcal had, and Chipper had, and Andruw had.
Schafer? Yes, I’d love to see him make the team out of ST. He’s the best hitter right now of all of our CF options, and the best defender. He might need a little time in AAA to refine his game, but if we want to compete we can’t have Blanco/Anderson manning CF for two months…we’ve got too many question marks at it is.
Hanson? He’s ready right now, I think. He’ll probably start in Gwinett, and that’s fine. I’m sure we’ll see him before the all-star break anyway. If he has a dominant spring and makes the team I’ll be thrilled.
Heyward, Rohrbough, Kimbrel? No. If you’re the Braves, you’ve gotta take Heyward along slowly. The dude won’t even be 20 until next August, so there is no way I’m putting him in the big leagues for at least two more seasons. Rohrbough probably needs more time too, coming off an injury plagued season and with BA noting that he needs to refine his changeup. Plus, he only advanced to hi-A in the latter part of the season, so he needs more time. Kimbrel needs another year too, he only got drafted last June, after all.
They’re all pretty young, and based on what I’ve read, need more refinement in their overall games. No sense in bringing them to the majors and watching them struggle and fail.
All in all, I’d expect to see Schafer, Hanson, Marek and Valdez at some point in 2009, with Medlen and Redmond among the possibilities as well (assuming they all stay in the organization, of course). Not a chance in heck you’ll see Heyward, Freeman, Hernandez, Locke, Rohrbough, et al in 2009, and for good reason.
By beachcomber
January 10, 2009 2:04 PM | Link to this
A sure sign of the apocalypse. The furor over Smoltzie persuaded my wife, who endures baseball as a kindness to me from March to October, to post for the first time ever on the blog last night.
Mr. Wren, you are indeed in trouble!
Seriously, four straight out of the money finishes will move even the most stable of franchises to shake up things in the front office and dugout. I see that coming in 2010 if not sooner.
By THE BEAR
January 10, 2009 2:09 PM | Link to this
First let me way that I am older than dirt and have been watching professional baseball longer than most of you have lived. I got to know and spend time with such players as Eddie Mathews, Mickey Mantle, Stan Musial and Hank Aaron. As a matter of fact I am about the same age as all of them except Musial. Now after that meaningless diatribe let me add these views for what they may be worth.
~ Most baseball players have egos wider than most anyone you want to meet other than actors.
~ John Smoltz has one of the biggest egos and one of the heaviest chips on his shoulder you will find.
~ General Managers also have egos as could be expected. They also like to be respected, after all they are the ones handing out the money.
~ When Smoltz talks about being dissed I can’t help but wonder what he thinks he did to John SchuerholZ when he called him “HOMEBOY”.
~ Loyalty: That is an overworked word. In this day and time it exists in extremely small doses. Money is the ticket now and has been for quite a few years. It fits perfectly with the politically correct world we live in. Very few people respect others, they all want to know where they are going to get their next buck. People on this board who cry about loyalty or lack of loyalty from the Braves to Smoltz are kidding themselves. There was loyalty but only to the point where a certain player can help a team win. When that is no longer clear then that player must make way for someone who can.
~ Smoltz had a fine “GOODBYE”
By Wayne in Utah
January 10, 2009 2:11 PM | Link to this
brent I am not a huge football fan to start with. Thanks for the correction on Auburn. Eric, the state attorney in Utah has either filed a lawsuit or is preparing one. Who knows what will come of it.
Eric On a baseball note. Back at the end of the season, I was also pondering the value of guys like Morton, Reyes and Campillo. I did a game by game analysis of Morton and Reyes, and found that roughly 50% of their starts were very successful starts. I didn’t have any real specific criteria, but looked at how they did, when they were pulled, and how the team fared before giving the game an up or a down vote.
Both guys in my informal analysis pitched well if not much better in roughly 1/2 of their starts in 2008. So, to say Reyes has shown nothing, doesn’t really count the games where he really did pitch well. Same for Morton.
Nobody know how they would both do if given another chance, but I keep going back to Tom Glavine (and ma