Braves

By JJMac

December 30, 2008 9:02 PM | Link to this

First?

By j

December 30, 2008 9:05 PM | Link to this

1?

By Herman

December 30, 2008 9:06 PM | Link to this

Is this a baseball blog?

By ô¿ô

December 30, 2008 9:10 PM | Link to this

DOB - please tell me the braves are going to bid against the mets for Lowe - have you heard anything??

By Herman

December 30, 2008 9:11 PM | Link to this

can somebody tell me how to find and log on to the ajc garden club blog?

By Sub-Prae

December 30, 2008 9:16 PM | Link to this

Definately loved the Willie Harris duo of leaping catches on the track at Shea. A little overrated but a heck of an exciting momment when he stole that potential homer from Delgado.

The Teixeira acquisition. Lots of false hope, but it sure was fun. He brought so much excitement.

Mike Hampton’s 7 inning effort against San Fran this summer. I was so happy for the guy.

Gary Sheffield’s 2003 season. Mr. Ego, but god he was a great Brave.

I had a lot of fun with KJ’s hit streak this second half.

Frenchy’s walkoff GS off of Cordero in ‘06! That was amazing!

Charlie Mo’s debut. Exciting….just wish that feeling could have lasted a little longer. lol

Beating the Redsox in Fenway 14-0 in ‘07. Smoltz dominating, KJ a single away from the cycle. GREAT game.

Just a few off my head. Have a great new year DOB!

By Thrillhouse44

December 30, 2008 9:17 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the blog, DOB. Make the most of your vacation.

The Baby Braves, although a cheesy nickname, provided an exciting year.

By T to the D

December 30, 2008 9:18 PM | Link to this

Particular performanaces would be too baffling DOB…How ‘bout the emergance of our catcher and the vacuum that was Chuckie James…

By T to the D

December 30, 2008 9:22 PM | Link to this

Herman,

Go to the top of the page where it says “search, and type in “tool”

By Jim

December 30, 2008 9:23 PM | Link to this

Dave:

Thanks for checking-in and giving all of us a place to comment.

Did you see that Mets have reportedly offered Lowe $36 MM for 3 yrs. Sounds like that B’s have that much in their budget and perhaps a bit more - say $40MM for same term.

Please continue to be careful out there.

By VaBravesfan

December 30, 2008 9:23 PM | Link to this

I live in Virginia and only get to attend one series a year. Two best memories: In 2004 I saw Chipper hit 4 homeruns in a 3 game series against the Cardinals. In 2006 I saw Francouer throw Luis Gonzales out at the plate twice in the same game. Cool stuff.

By Steve from OH

December 30, 2008 9:30 PM | Link to this

DOB, thanks for the new blog.

It seems the Mets have offered Lowe 3/36….it seems like now might be a good time to snag Lowe on a relative bargain. We could easily offer more money per year or more years and not damage our long-term prospects very severely if the deal doesn’t work out.

By Herman

December 30, 2008 9:35 PM | Link to this

thanks T to the D but I tried that and all I got was a page with a Lowes tools ad and some other non garden related ads and articles about cell phones in prisons used as tools or weapons. that’s strange. maybe I did something wrong. I’ll try again. thanks again.

By Tomas

December 30, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this

3years 36million for Lowe what a bargain. I was afraid he wanted 5yrs 80milliom. Wren outbid the Mets, go 3yrs 45 million if necessary.

By David O'Brien

December 30, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this

Steve and dude with odd screen name: Haven’t made any calls while on vacation, but I’d not be surprised if the Braves get in on Lowe. I really see no reason why they shouldn’t or wouldn’t, unless they’ve got another pitcher in mind who’s a mystery at this point.

By Keith Moon Lives

December 30, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this

DUNN,DUNN,DUNN !

By Barley Blashmore

December 30, 2008 9:50 PM | Link to this

UUUGH… the mind picture of you nude in a hot spring with other toadies. Yeech!

By Billy Pilgrim

December 30, 2008 9:53 PM | Link to this

In re:Lowe

I don’t see how Wren could see that what the Mets have offered and not get in on Lowe. At that price, or something close to it, Wren could easily fill the LF void and add 2 significant starting pitchers instead of just one. I’d like to see the team sign Kawakami or perhaps take a flyer on Sheets depending on the status of Smoltz & Glavine.

By Billy Pilgrim

December 30, 2008 9:57 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the new blog DOB. You deserve more than whatever you’re getting paid, and we Braves fans are fortunate to have someone as devoted as you are covering our team

By Steve from OH

December 30, 2008 10:00 PM | Link to this

DOB, thanks. Dude, kick back and relax with some Coltrane or Miles Davis instead of making business calls lol.

By How bout that!!!

December 30, 2008 10:01 PM | Link to this

Peavy Negotiations back on!!!!!!!!!!!

NY Post reports that Peavy’s agent said, and I quote, “The Braves are the most likely destination for Jake. We think that something is close. Their last offer was very close to what we wanted. Without getting into specific player’s…..we wouldn’t want anyone thinking we give up confidence….we like that young catcher they have. I think the original package plus him and that young righty in the rotation should get it done. I’m just waiting on Frank at this point. We’re confident he’ll make the right decision for both Peavy and our organization.”

By Desibrave

December 30, 2008 10:03 PM | Link to this

Frank Wren will not make an offer before checking with Lowe the following 1) If he is willing to come to Atlanta? 2) If his wife ok to fly? 3) He and his agent will not keep shopping after getting the fax copy of the Terms

By Random

December 30, 2008 10:04 PM | Link to this

Speaking of Willie Haeeis, this is a reply to like the 969th comment from the last blog (R.I.P.) —

jimmy joe bob:

“You all can laugh, even O’Brien said Willie Harris was a low-risk/ high-reward type guy when the Braves signed him…. if memory serves me right … WILLIE HARRIS turned out to be a starting LF for us. Great.”

&

“The same thing was said about “Wee” Willie Harris - “a spring-trainee invitee to compete for a backupposition; you know the “low-risk high-reward” type of guy. If my memory serves me right (in honor of Iron Chef Kawakami), “Wee Willie Harris was our STARTING leftfielder that year.”

Perhaps it would interest you to know that, after playing 134 games (103 in the outfield) and (31 in the infield) for the Nationals last season, Harris was judged to be the Number One 2008 free agent pick-up by Tim Dierkes of MLB TradeRumors.com.

Dierkes compared Harris’ 2008 salary ($850,000) to his actual value ($15.4 million, based on Harris’ “Value Wins” as calculated by FanGraphs).

By Tomahawkin

December 30, 2008 10:12 PM | Link to this

The Willie Catch at Shea was Dope…

How about 2007 in August the Braves overcame a 8-2 deficit to the Phillies and came back over the last three innings (because of Brett Myers inability to get anyone out) 9-8

That game was funny watching the Phillies fans Vent in digust in the Philly.com/phillies Forum… Too bad the phillies have had the last laugh over the last 2 years…

Also Gotta throw in the B-Macc First Post-season 3-Run Bomb against Roger Clemens in 2005…

Not to Forget the 18 Inning Playoff game in Houston in 2005 In which We Blew many-a-chance to win a late inning dramatic playoff game…

By BravesFanInRockies

December 30, 2008 10:13 PM | Link to this

How bout that

Link, please. Otherwise I’m calling BS.

By 18 Wheels of Love

December 30, 2008 10:17 PM | Link to this

I hope you are spinning this Uncle Tupelo song…one of my fav’s. Have a great trip!

Chickamauga

You’d never leave on your own

Where you’re from and where you’re going

I know these things like I know you hate me now

Catch yourself in mid-air thinking

Your dreams can never be bought

I couldn’t help you then and I guess I can’t help you now

When jousting is for pleasure

Pleasure is way out of hand

The time is right for getting out while we still can

Chickamauga’s where I’ve been

Solitude is where I’m bound

I don’t ever wanna taste these tears again

I don’t ever wanna taste these tears again

Appalachian, so patient

The lessons we’ve traveled

As soon as we’re out we’re kicking our way back in

Fighting fire with unlit matches

From our respective trenches

No authority can clean up this mess we’re in

A miracle might point the way

To solutions we’re after

And avert our chronic impending disaster

Chickamauga’s where I’ve been

Solitude is where I’m bound

I don’t ever wanna taste these tears again

By Random

December 30, 2008 10:18 PM | Link to this

In re: Lowe

How quickly they (Billy Pilgrim, Tomas, Steve from OH, Jim) forget — it takes two to tango. If Lowe don’t want to come here, he won’t come here.

PS: “HaRRis”.

By 18 Wheels of Love

December 30, 2008 10:21 PM | Link to this

Oh, almost forgot.

Favorite from 2008…

It was when Bobby moved that pitcher from the mound to LF for one batter and then moved him back to pitch again. It didn’t work but I liked what Bobby did in that position. For the life of me I can’t remember the players involved.

By BravesFanInRockies

December 30, 2008 10:34 PM | Link to this

18 Wheels,

Wasn’t that Mahay and Bennett? Or Mahay and Soriano?

By BravoMan

December 30, 2008 10:34 PM | Link to this

Wren should think about offering Lowe a competitive offer like 3 years $45 million. If he was willing to go 5 years $80 million for Burnett then this makes all the since in the world. If we were to lose on the war for Lowe im sure that would be a confidence downer but then just go out and sign Kawakami and Smoltz/Glavine. O and as for LF, make the trade for Swisher. It’ll be a perfect fit with his versatility and power.

By Billy Pilgrim

December 30, 2008 10:38 PM | Link to this

Axelrod would never say “we like that young catcher they have”. He doesn’t care who the Padres like and would never refer to them as “we”.

By Atown

December 30, 2008 10:41 PM | Link to this

Without a doubt a very memorable moment(s) was the ‘BabyBraves’ of 05. It just seemed like they kept coming up and coming up. A truly unique and gratifying season after everyone counted us out. I long for those winning days. DOB, thanks for checking in from John Denver land. Look forward to hearing from you when you get back. Cheers!

By kirkinga

December 30, 2008 10:46 PM | Link to this

If the Braves are interested in Lowe, and I hope they are, I don’t want to hear about it.

Given how the offseason has turned out so far, I think it would be better to just find out after both parties have signed on the dotted line.

It does seem from reading ESPN, that the Mets are bidding against themselves at this point, but the BoSox signing Penny was a big surprise.

If Ohman doesn’t sign Bimel would be an excellent replacement.

I think we’ll see a streak of signings here in the next week or two and the Braves will pick up some nice pieces at sensible prices.

By Desibrave

December 30, 2008 10:55 PM | Link to this

Sign Smoltz for a 5Mil + incentives

Get Manny for 1 year 25mil, (give him a hope that Yankees will free up some money next year and sign him for 2010 onwards)

Here is our lineup..,

Anderson Blanco Chipper Manny McCann Francouer KJ Esco

With Manny hitting after him Chipper will once again hit .400 if not .450 this time around…,

Get the speedy guys Anderson/blanco + Chipper on base when Manny is at bat .., If they walk Manny intentionally then McCann (a .300 hitter) will hit bases loaded situation and not Francouer unlike in 2008

Manny will give a 50+ HR, 150+ RBI year for sure..,

Give it a shot in Bobby’s last year..,

If that doesn’t work then give a nice farewell to Bobby get Ned Yost to succeed and start fresh. We have ton of talent in 2010.

Hudson Jurgens Hansen Morton JoJo/Locke will give us a great pitching lineup in 2010..,

What do you say Guys?

By Sub-Prae

December 30, 2008 10:57 PM | Link to this

That Peavy post is BS. “Young Catcher”? Oh I guess that means Tyler Flowers…poor Axlerod. He’s been in a coma for a few weeks? lol

Another awesome moment was September 11th, 2005 at RFK. We lost the lead late, but immediately following Chipper hits a three run jack, and then Andruw goes back-to-back with him on the first pitch he sees. Great memory.

By Jerald Holcombe

December 30, 2008 11:00 PM | Link to this

Did alot of scouring and found absolutely nothing that would indicate the Braves/Peavy talks are back on. In fact, if the talks were to be started back up, it would have to be without Escobar’s inclusion. Back when they talked trade before, there were a few good shortstops on the market that the Braves could have gone after. Now, if Escobar were traded, we would be hurting up the middle, so forget that. And here’s another idea. Does anyone think that we the Braves give a shot at signing Manny Ramirez? Normally, I would shy away from spending that much money on one player. But, if you get the Manny that has something to prove to everyone, he would defintely solve our outfield power problem and give us a legit cleanup hitter. And he just might put out for Bobby Cox.

By I start forrest fires

December 30, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the new blog!

Does anyone else get the feeling the Braves aren’t going to make any big moves this year?

Unless they make a blockbuster trade for someone like Brandon Webb then this offseason has been a failure.

The Braves current roster couldn’t compete in a 12 year old school girl soft ball leauge.

I*ts sad to see how far the Braves have fallen. Maybe we will compete again in 2020.

By Sub-Prae

December 30, 2008 11:06 PM | Link to this

DOB, That 2 homer 7 RBI game was in Washington for Frenchy.

By geauxbraves2000

December 30, 2008 11:06 PM | Link to this

The Slide.

Geaux Braves!!

By Eric from MO

December 30, 2008 11:08 PM | Link to this

My favorite moment in the past 6 years was probably the year Smoltz set the N.L. record for saves. I know every night I would watch til the 8th or 9th inning and just get pumped up when Smoltz came in. I wouldnt sit down the whole time.

My worse moment in the past 6 years was when TBS didnt continue their contract with the Braves. I think Im going to cough up the money this year so I can see all the games. OK, I dont know much about MLB and they way they have it set up to watch your team’s games. What channel does someone out of the Atlanta area have to purchase to see the games.

By Sub-Prae

December 30, 2008 11:11 PM | Link to this

I start forrest fires:

Dude seriously, your optimism is killing me.

By Sub-Prae

December 30, 2008 11:15 PM | Link to this

Oh yes! Another great moment was when Smoltz flirted with that NO-NO in ‘07.

Nothing really all that special, but for fans like me it was a rush. How speacial would it be for Smoltz to have a no hitter under his belt? It was fun.

By Eric from MO

December 30, 2008 11:15 PM | Link to this

I have been saying all off-season the Braves should go after Manny and with all of our other deals falling through it only makes more sense. Forget the ace, just sign Manny. He wins where ever he goes. Two years at 50 million. I dont think a one year deal mentioned earlier would do it.

By Desibrave

December 30, 2008 11:16 PM | Link to this

DOB Reflecting on Braves 2008 with a What If Analysis

1) What if Smoltz didn’t have the shoulder issues and won 18games? 2) What if Glavine kept his “never been on DL tag intact” and won 15 games ? 3) What if Hudson didn’t need a TJ and ended up with 18wins 4) What if we didn’t have to trade Teix 5) What if Chipper hit .400 through out the season 6) What if Soriano’s arm was ok and save a few of those 1 run games? 7) and lastly Francouer hit .300 in Bases loaded situation instead of .180 or something that he ended up with having?

It would have been a fantastic year for sports in ATL ., With Falcons reaching Playoffs and Hawks 10games above .500..,

By Jerald Holcombe

December 30, 2008 11:16 PM | Link to this

I remember a few years back at the tail end of the string of division titles and most of the bloggers were b*** and moaning about how they were tired of the Braves failing in the first round of the playoffs. My thoughts were that at least we kept putting ourselves in a position to win. Now, we are less than a .500 team and 2009 doesn’t offer any hope of being better. How many of you realize how spoiled you had gotten? I’m not being defeatist, but something huge would have to happen to get us out of 3rd or most likely 4th place.

By Jerald Holcombe

December 30, 2008 11:22 PM | Link to this

Eric from MO

Not sure if it was supposed to work out that way, but last season I subscribed to MLB.TV Mosaic and didn’t have one blackout of Atlanta games, even though I should have.

By Kentavo

December 30, 2008 11:27 PM | Link to this

Hey Keith Moon Lives, were you jealous to see Pete and Rog honored by the Kennedy Center tonight on CBS?

By Jerald Holcombe

December 30, 2008 11:28 PM | Link to this

Personally, I think Manny might jump at 3 years $65 million. Nobody else is even coming close to those numbers. The Dodgers pulled their 2 year- $45 million deal off the table and it hasn’t been put back. And no other team seems to be trying to sign him.

By bravesfaninmetsland

December 30, 2008 11:28 PM | Link to this

Well there you have it.. This bad streak we’ve been on hasn’t been beacuse of aging pitchers, or injuries, or underperforming outfielders… The downward spiral started because DOB started covering the team. In my best Oberman voice “How Dare You Sir?”

Hahaha or maybe it was all the other stuff. I still have hope. Thanks for the great blogs DOB happy New Year all!

By Henry

December 30, 2008 11:30 PM | Link to this

Best moment in recent years not already recounted above: Kyle Davies’s debut at Fenway.

I agree with kirkinga, I hope the Braves are bidding for Lowe, and I hope Wren has learned his lesson about pursuing these things so publicly. He’s looked really bad this offseason because we knew when he got shot down. I’m sure Schuerholz got shot down plenty of times, too, but he was smart enough to keep it out of the public eye. Not to make your job harder, DOB, but it’s really not in the team’s interest for the whole world to know what they’re thinking all the time.

Having said that, thanks for all your good work these last couple of years on the blog.

By Eric from MO

December 30, 2008 11:31 PM | Link to this

Jerald Holcombe you are exactly right. I remember almost half of them were saying it would be better for us to miss the playoffs for a year or two, never really understood that one. Now that we have missed the playoffs for only three years the world is ending. Alot of you say you would rather be the Marlins, well the Marlins missed the playoffs for 5 years between their titles and they have now missed the playoffs for 5 years since their last one. Most of you are about to die from suffering of missing the playoffs for 3 years, how could you possible survive 5 years.

By kirkinga

December 30, 2008 11:40 PM | Link to this

Orlando Cabrera is still available at SS, but I also doubt the Peavy trade will be revisited.

Looks like the Braves will sign the best option remaining after the Mets are done selecting who they want.

By KC

December 30, 2008 11:40 PM | Link to this

Well, word is that Lowe is seeking 5 years 90 million (18 million per)… and the Mets have offered 3 years 36 million.

I would be surprised if Boras even returns their calls until they indicate a willingness to significantly improve their offer. That said, Boras may not get the money he’s looking for, as he accustom to.

The Mets offer is likely just an entry offer. They’re most likely willing pay in the neighborhood of 15 mill per year (instead of the 12 they offered), and may be willing to add a 4th year if that would get it done.

The Braves can certainly make the same offer, and they should!! The Braves can at least afford to make an offer of 3 years - 45 mill, with a vesting option for a fourth year.

Lowe / Jurrjens / Vazquez / Smoltz / Hanson… could be a pretty darn good rotation.

By Desibrave

December 30, 2008 11:47 PM | Link to this

**To sign Best #1 FA Pitcher available - $161 million to sign Best available 1B FA - $180 million to sign Best #2 FA Pitcher - $82 million

Having David O’Brien reporting Braves - PRICELESS**

By Jerald Holcombe

December 30, 2008 11:49 PM | Link to this

I remember back in 1991, I had a lot of debates with my old military buddy who lives in Minnesota and is a Twins fan. He would give me a rash of crap about the two titles the Twins won in 1987 and 1991 and that was okay. But, he was still giving me hell several years later even though the Twins quickly went back to being doormats and the Braves were several years into their streak. I asked him then if those two world titles kept him warm at night. The same could be said of the Marlins, who would win and then dismatle the team because they couldn’t afford to pay the players. Fact is, we had a chance every year to play into October and that is what I miss. Being all but eliminated with a month to go in the season leaves a taste like Fido’s a$$ in your mouth. That’s not acceptable to me.

By Jerald Holcombe

December 30, 2008 11:58 PM | Link to this

With the economy the way it is, Lowe won’t come close to $18 mil per year. I think I heard where the Mets may be offering $45mil for 3 years. If that is so, bet on the Mets getting him because nobody else will give him that much, including the Braves. I would like to see the Braves go after Ben Sheets and offer him a multi-year deal of 4 years with only the first and maybe the second year incentive laden based on innings pitched. If Sheets could just get over the hump and stay healthy, he would be a great pitcher. Might be worth the chance.

By kirkinga

December 31, 2008 12:21 AM | Link to this

Mets offer Lowe 3 years $36 million, or about 1/3 of what he was seeking in an overall amount.

Do the Braves offer a 4th year? Boras says other teams interested, the Phillies are one but don’t they already have 5 starters? Maybe the Yankees are interested as a back up plan should Pettite not sign.And are the Dodgers playing this like they played Furcal, just waiting to swoop in at the last minute?

By richbrave

December 31, 2008 12:37 AM | Link to this

DAVE:

Whatever you’re paid it ain’t enough. Above and beyond.

LOWE, JURJENS, VASQUEZ - has a nice ring to it.

By Eric from MO

December 31, 2008 12:38 AM | Link to this

Guess everyone is asleep…guess I will do same. See yall in the morning.

By RJ- California

December 31, 2008 12:43 AM | Link to this

Julio Franco! It was truly amazing to watch him play during his 2 stints with the Braves (2001-2005, 2007). He is one of my all-time favorites (right up there with Smoltzy and Chipper), and I sure do miss the guy. He is the all-time hits leader among Dominican-born players, FYI…that’s impressive.

By daven-Brave

December 31, 2008 1:02 AM | Link to this

Someone please explain to me why we have not done j-#$@% since the JV deal? I do not want to hear how the yanks out-bid us,the Dodgers out-smarted us etc.. Something is not right w/the front office because Wren and the Braves supposedly have the money. Wren obviously does not have the respect that trader -J had. With Bobby not sure how much longer he is going to be around. This is more and more starting to sound like the mid 80’s braves…….My first braves game was a 1971 doubleheader against the Giants as a 5 yr old..My aunt used to be one of the candy-striped shorts ball-girls by the “old picnic tables” in the mid-70’s. So what i am trying to say is. I am not a “drive by fan of the 90’s”. Bandwagon crew who are the first to complain and jump ship at the first sign of the Braves having issues………. I just pray we do not resemble anything like we did in the 80’s or mid 70’s….Young then and could take it. To much of a fan now and my innocense has surpassed me with cynicisim

By uga-brave

December 31, 2008 1:13 AM | Link to this

DOB,

i just got back from killington. never been much of a snowboarder. like i said before you left, it can be hard on your wrists unless you really know how to roll into the mountain when you fall.

with all the braves injuries last year, the last thing we need is the crusading everdayman to snap a wrist and be on the I.R.

sounds like you having a great recharge the batteries trip.

nothing better then watching the snow fall in front of the fire after a day on the slopes. a good glass of scotch or wine aint bad after dinner either. selah.

By Chop Chop

December 31, 2008 1:16 AM | Link to this

I don’t have any favorite on-the-field moments from the last few seasons. It’s been like watching someone slowly bleed their life down a drain, man.

Have a happy freakin’ new year, DOB.

(Fake depressive mood aside, I’ll go with Willie Harris’s 6-for-6. Kinda fun watching a scrub go off on someone for an amazing day. Willie’s managed to carve out something for himself with the Nats. He’s a good guy and deserves the success.)

By uga-brave

December 31, 2008 1:41 AM | Link to this

desi-brave,

with all due respect to your what if post.

if my aunt had, well you know she would be my uncle.

DOB, according to sources the cubs are about to move marquis to colorado for vizquiano. the cubs will also send the rocks $5 million.

they then will move dero the hero (mark derosa ) for prospects, thus freeing up enough money to take on JAKE PEAVY.

time to face the facts, peavy never wanted to come to atlanta.

By Nick

December 31, 2008 1:44 AM | Link to this

I think that sometime between the 4th and the middle of the month , we will see most of the signing happen for all teams. Everyone seems to be trying to outwait each other so as to avoid overbidding. Bargain shoppers on ebay al ltrying to snipe without paying too much.

Love to see us throw a 3 yr $45 mill with a vesting option at Lowe. But, I don’t see it happening…

By A-ville Ranger

December 31, 2008 1:47 AM | Link to this

DOB,you reminded me of the hot springs pool in Ouray Colorado’(Galt’s Gulch for yo Ayn Rand fans ,it was her model for the sitting for ‘Atlas Shrugged).The spring is too hot so on one end of the pool the spring is fenced,on the other end a stream feeds directly into the pool.

I used to go there about once a week back in the 90s when I lived in Western Colorado.It was amazing in the winter.You can get so close to the spring you almost boil or move farther away for cooler water.I’ve been in it while it snowed (it’s uncovered) and it was a very spiritual experience….Also I was banging a massage therapist who worked there.

By uga-brave

December 31, 2008 2:06 AM | Link to this

chop chop,

the funny thing about willie harris’s 6-6 is he did half of it with tim hudson’s bat.

pretty sure he picked up the wrong bat in the rack and kept going.

actually the scary part is willie had a .760 ops with 13 dingers in 370 at bats last season with the nationals.

francoeur had a .650 ops with 11 dingers in 600 at bats.

cant make that kind of stuff up, well at least jeff promised that will not happen again, right?

well that is what at least he told furman bisher.

By Murph

December 31, 2008 2:25 AM | Link to this

Another look back at a disappointing season only further highlights the frustration of this sad, sorry offseason.

Money to spend, prospects to trade, and the only thing the Braves have to show is a new #3 starter. No rumors of anything being in the works, no aces or big outfield bats worth pursuing on the free agent market… going to be a long 2009 Braves fans.

At this point I’d rather see the team save the $40+ million, lower ticket prices, and play the youngsters. Worked for teams like the Marlins and Rays in the past, might work for us.

By Bravo Nam

December 31, 2008 2:54 AM | Link to this

“…but the universal language of moaning…” Sounds like it’s more than just snow you’re enjoying DOB ;)

Thanks for your commitment to the blog…going above and beyond the call of duty by writing during your break!

By semiballcoach

December 31, 2008 7:09 AM | Link to this

lowe for 36 million——the yankees will jump in and drive the price up

By 6-4-3

December 31, 2008 7:13 AM | Link to this

I just saw a trade rumor on a CBS blog in which we would trade Mike Gonzalez and Kelly Johnson to the Angels for Willits, Kendrick and Adenhart. Has anyone else heard about this? Does it have any validity?

Not sure how I feel about it if it were true.

By raymond

December 31, 2008 7:33 AM | Link to this

this article was a waste of time. I can’t believe they pay you to do this, and stop with the stupid song lyrics.

By O'brien

December 31, 2008 8:13 AM | Link to this

We offered 5 years, $80 million to AJ, who had injury concerns. Surely we will get in on the Lowe sweepstakes (3 years, $45 million, 4th year option maybe). Plus it would be nice to see another team lose out on a free agent because of the Braves.

And that still leaves enough money (at least $13 million ) to sign a LF (Dunn, Abreu, Burrell).

By flange1

December 31, 2008 8:26 AM | Link to this

Morning all,

The day just seems so much better when we have a blog to read????

Here is to hoping the Braves get in on D Lowe!

I agree with uga-brave, Peavy is going to the Cubs. It will just take awhile..

HAPPY NEW YEAR to all!

By Chief Nock A Homa

December 31, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this

DOB,

Thanks for the blog…

When it appears that we could make a run at Ben Sheets on the cheap, why would Wren not take a chance on a one or two year incentive laden deal??

If we make a run at Lowe, as well, we might end up sitting in a pretty good spot if Sheets doesn’t fall apart…

Wouldn’t you agree??

Any thoughts on Schultz’ idea of bringing Andruw back?? To me, it sounds crazy, but it might not be a bad idea either if the Dodgers are going to eat his salary…

Tomahawkin’ Back to the Top!

By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh

December 31, 2008 8:43 AM | Link to this

The Braves need to go after Lowe, if only to prevent him from getting a red carpet to the Mets!

Bringing Andruw back wouldn’t be a bad idea…it would be the worst idea.

By Chief Nock A Homa

December 31, 2008 8:51 AM | Link to this

Agreed - keeps Lowe from the Mets if nothing else…

Same idea with Sheets… He kills us every year… It’s worth the small price just to keep him from getting at us a few times a year…

I guess Frenchy will bounce back??

Andruw off the bench is the worst idea??

By getnathan

December 31, 2008 9:04 AM | Link to this

Would Braves consider Manny Ramirez? I mean they could sign him to keep the seat warm for Jason Heyward for 2 years. He could bat cleanup, and Chipper would have a HUGE year. Makes sense?

By jonathan davidoff

December 31, 2008 9:10 AM | Link to this

For $5mil, I would take Andruw and hope he rebounds. Cannot be any worse than what we had last year.

By Random

December 31, 2008 9:11 AM | Link to this

Yeah, the Braves should sign Manny Ramirez to a two-year contract to ensure that Bobby Cox has no regrets about retiring at the end of 2009.

By Efrim

December 31, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this

There has to be a reason that the Braves have little interest in Lowe. My guess is that they a) Don’t want to be used to drive up the price for a team that Derek actually wants to play for, and b) the Braves might have already heard from Lowe that his first choice to to play for a contender.

Now, some may say “well, adding Lowe will make us a contender”. Right, but my guess is that baseball players don’t look at it like that. They see that the Braves won 72 games last year and have the Phillies and Mets in their division.

That 3 year 36 million dollar offer was the Mets initial offer. They’ll raise it, at some point. I think he’ll end up signing for 3 years and 45 million with a vesting option that is easily attainable. Yankees and Red Sox could get involved, but with the Red Sox signing Penny, that seems less likely. The Yankees could sign him, but I still believe they will ink Pettitte at some point.

By BreckVirgin

December 31, 2008 9:25 AM | Link to this

DOB,

Thoughts on places to stay in Breckenridge? I am going for the first time in February and need some ideas.

By Jerald Holcombe

December 31, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this

What’s the big deal with keeping Lowe from signing with the Mets? Last I heard, the Phils are the world champs with a really good shot at getting to the playoffs again. If the Braves aren’t gonna do diddly squat to improve enough in an effort to overtake the Phils, then I’ve gotta root for the Mets to do it. I know, it sounds blasphemous to root for the Mets, but I can’t stand the Phillies even more. If we are to go after Lowe, it won’t be to keep him from the Mets, it would be to improve the Braves. As for Peavy, I honestly hope that he does go to the Cubs. It’ll be the last you’ll ever hear of his chances to win another Cy Young. And in an effort to keep the ball from going yard all the time, he may wind up putting a little more torque on his arm and throw his delivery out of whack, or simply blow his arm out, which is gonna happen sooner or later anyway. All in all, I would like to see Lowe or Sheets, but I would much rather see Smoltz return and pitch well. I would also like to see Hanson get his chance. Lastly, Campillo deserves a chance because he pitched well last year. We have the arms to have a reasonable rotation, but we have no power in our offense. We should consider Manny. And I wouldn’t be opposed to getting Andruw back if the Dodgers eat some of his contract. BUT, in no way, form, or fashion would I wanna see that huge clod Adam Dunn in left field for the Braves. He’s got to be the worst outfielder in the game. Between the balls he can’t get to and all the multitude of strikeouts, there simply isn’t an up side to Adam Dunn. At least Andruw can get you an out defensively.

By Eric from MO

December 31, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this

Chief Nock a Homa Andruw is a horrible idea. Even the dodgers do pay his contract we would still have to give up something for a .200 hitter. Why would you want a .200 hitter who falls down and strikes out. If you try to claim to get him for late innings defense, did you watch him any last year? Dude is terrible at defense. Even though Blance only batted .250 last year, that is still better. Also, that he bring speed and is still young. Bringing back Andruw would be stupid. Let the Mets have him.

By the way I was probably one of the biggest Andruw supporters when he was here. I dont know how many times I got ripped on this blog for trying to say that he will turn it around and his defense will make up for it. I was one who thought he would go down as the greatest CF of all-time. Sadly, I was wrong. He is just old, not by age, but you watch him and he already looks like Willie Mays at the end of his career. One year may be a fluke, 2 years isnt.

By 18 Wheels of Love

December 31, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this

Ahhh, reminiscing….

The Little River Band (Graham Goble)

Friday night, it was late, I was walking you home We got down to the gate and I was dreaming of the night Would it turn out right How to tell you girl I wanna build my world around you Tell you that it’s true I wanna make you understand I’m talkin’ about a lifetime plan

That’s the way it began, we were hand in hand Glenn Miller’s Band was better than before We yelled and screamed for more And the Porter tunes (Night and Day) Made us dance across the room It ended all too soon And on the way back home I promised you’d never be alone

Hurry, don’t be late, I can hardly wait I said to myself when we’re old We’ll go dancing in the dark Walking through the park and reminiscing

(Instrumental break)

Friday night, it was late, I was walking you home We got down to the gate and I was dreaming of the night Would it turn out right Now as the years roll on Each time we hear our favorite song The memories come along Older times we’re missing Spending the hours reminiscing

Hurry, don’t be late, I can hardly wait I said to myself when we’re old We’ll go dancing in the dark Walking through the park and reminiscing

By Jerald Holcombe

December 31, 2008 9:40 AM | Link to this

Am I the only one here that gets driven up the wall by all the non-baseball talk? Geeze dude, you want advice on vacationing? Try a travel agent. Sorry, but that’s the way I see it.

By Eric from MO

December 31, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this

jonathan davidoff ANDRUW IS WORSE!!! He couldnt even hit .200 last year a year after batting .220. Dude cant even put the ball in play! All he can do is swing, fall down, and strike out. Why would you give up 5mill when we have youngsters who are already better. By the way they are better defensively too! Andruw is just old.

By Eric from MO

December 31, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this

Jerald Holcombe Im sorry but Andruw cant get you an out defensively anymore. As sad as it is to say, Dunn may be better defensively than Andruw.(I hate Dunn by the way) He is just washed up. Go watch some early Dodger games and you will know what Im talking about. He cant even play defense anymore.

Now Im with you on Manny. I have been saying it all off-season. If the Braves want to get back to the post-season sign Manny. He can single handedly beat down the Mets and Phillies. Dude wins wherever he goes. I dont get why people say that the Braves would regret it. Yeah he does stupid things but he is a nice guy (at least seems like it). He is just a big kid. None of his teammates ripped him when he was there and making them win. Besides Braves have had knuckleheads before like Gary Sheffield and Sheffield was considered a far worse teammate than Manny and isnt even close in talent. Manny could go down as the greatest right-handed hitter of all-time.

By Jerald Holcombe

December 31, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this

Same thing goes for the song lyrics. There’s gotta be a blog for crap like that.

By AustinBraves

December 31, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this

I think all of the Andruw basing should stop. Have you ever had a bad year or two in you life? Even the last year with the Braves he had 94 RBI’s. How many Braves did that last year? He will hit the big numbers again I just hope its not against the Braves in our on division.

By Lew

December 31, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this

Jerald-No, it”s you and three others. Get over it. That’s how we do things here and it ain’t going to change. Heard any good music lately? Where do YOU get the best BBQ? Seen any good flicks? My wife and I watched The Illusionist , with Edward Norton last night. Excellent movie. You should check it out sometime.

DOB-Glad someone is having fun with snow-seems all I ever do is pay someone to move it somewhere else.

Two things I doubt anyone will mention-I saw Tom Glavine throw a complete game 7 hit shut out against the Expos in the first game I ever saw in Montreal. I also saw Marcus Giles hit four doubles in an Expos game. Those were high points for me. Also saw Klesko hit two HR in a game-then he had an appendicitis.

I’ve been pretty calm with all of the Non-deals made by the Braves so far. However, if they don’t get off their Assorted gluteus maximii and make a competitive offer for Lowe, then I think I’ll be close to getting upset. I also wonder, considering the price paid, why they didn’t make some kind of play for Brad Penny. For $5-8 mil, the Dude would have been a great signing.

By Efrim

December 31, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this

To add to my last post, I can’t believe that the Mets are having all of these things fall their way. If they sign Lowe for anything less than 4 years and 60 million, than yes, that is considered falling their way.

By Eric from MO

December 31, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this

Austin did you watch any games that Andruw was here in his last season??? Everytime he came to bat he had a least one runner, normally two. If batted halfway decent like .250(not even halfway decent) he could easily had 150 rbis. Also there is a difference between having a down year or two and just being washed up.

By Brad

December 31, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this

DOB - Winona’s is great. One of the only places to find sweet tea on the western slope. You should give the Butterhorn in Frisco a try as well for breakfast or lunch. Pretty delicious (great pasta salad) although could be really crowded. Giampetro’s in Breck is another liitle Italian place that is ridiculously good for being in a ski town. Lived in Summit for a little while, but moved back to Athens. Man I miss that place.

By Don

December 31, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this

Surely the Bravis will not PANIC and (1) give big bucks and long years to mediocre players - better off to keep the money and play the young players, (2) give Smoltz (in fortys, 5 significant arm operations, only 1 good year in recent years) or Glavin (also in forty’s, signifcant arm injory, ineffective even before injury) anything but a low base salry (say 1 million) plus incentives, sign either Burrell or Dunn (high K’s, low BA) just because they hit a few HR, sign any injury prone pitcher with the record of our PC. To even consider Andruw is terrible — even at his best was one of the most overrated offensive players in baseball history - was not clutch - much of HR and RBI production in menaingless situations - and now is fat Albert is no longer even good defensively. How could we possible keep our PC when 4 out of 5 of projected starters and almost all of bull pen went down with serious injuries. Also kept TP when show little effectivenss in working with hitters (could be lack of backing by Cox). And above all, keeping Cox makes everything else meaningless - one of all time worst offensive managers in baseball.

By Chief Nock A Homa

December 31, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this

Eric from MO:

Sounds like you loved Andruw and now he dumped you, and you’re an ex out to rip him apart… You’re up watching him play for the Dodgers??? Those are pretty late nights….

I’m not a big Andruw guy, just saying it could make some sense…

And, from what I’ve read, it wouldn’t be a 5 mil investment… I just read where the Dodgers seem to be willing to eat up to 20 million,leaving about 2 for the team taking him on…

Maybe coming back would be what he needed to get rejuvenated… I mean just a couple of years ago he was killing the ball and playing solid defense…

By StingerSplash

December 31, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this

Seeing B. Lamar Bonds in person two years ago as he and his giant head and licked bat (thought that only happened on Cheshire Bridge Road) hit two gargantuan bombs, Andruw — before the weight (ahem) of a new contract wore him down — cranked out two mammoth homers and Shea Hillenbrand hit four frozen ropes, going 4-for-5, and the Braves literally outslugged the Gigantes.

By 18 Wheels of Love

December 31, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

Hey Gerald, there is a blog for that kind of stuff and you are in it. If you haven’t noticed, we talk basball, BBQ, music and such in here. Maybe if you listened to some Cash, Uncle Tupelo, McMurty, ate some vinegar based BBQ, you might get it.

By Herman

December 31, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

ha!!!!! it took some doing but I finally figured it out. T of D was pulling my leg by telling me to type “tool” into the search bar to find ajc’s gardening blog. i tried several times but kept coming up with Lowes and tool stories. very funny but I since found another garden blog and related subjects on ajc but now this one looks like more fun.

maybe somebody here knows do any of the braves players enjoy gardening?

By Eric from MO

December 31, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this

No Chief you are completly wrong. I wished Andruw the best of luck, pretty sure i posted it on here. The Braves didnt offer him a contract at the end of the year, it was his only choice.

By AustinBraves

December 31, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this

Eric from MO- Yes I watched Andrew and I will admit he had alot of chances to do better, but how many people really hit 150 RBI’s. If he would just hit 25 homeruns it would be better than all three of our current outfielders. He’s only 31 and has alot of time left in the majors.Somebody is going to get a DEAL!

By bill

December 31, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

One thing is for sure.When you spend alot of time talking about individual accomplishments,it usally means the team is not worth talking about.

By Random

December 31, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this

Jerald Holcombe: Am I the only one here that gets driven up the wall by all the non-baseball talk?”*

Not by a long shot, but it’s no use to complain.

You’ll be shouted down by those who apparently would prefer to complain about the blog crashing under too many comments.

It’s ironic to consider how many of those “too many comments” are what we would consider superfluously “non-baseball”.

By Bravesfan

December 31, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this

Ok, here we are at the beginning of the new year and we have traded for Javier Vazquez, signed some back up catcher named Voss, re-signed Greg Norton (WOW), lost out of Peavy, Burnett, & Furcal…GREEEEAAAAATTT!!!!!!! I stated several months ago that the perception of our $40 mill to spend was just that…perception. I was and still am concerned that we are not going to spend our money & take the “we don’t want to just throw money around” approach. I believe that will be the excuse when we don’t sign any player that will help us, and we will start dumping our only stars (Chipper, Smoltz). I can see a “youth movement” that is “two years away” from development.

By jbutler

December 31, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this

DOB Forget baseball…more importantly before you flee Summit- I recommend Swan Mountain Inn…scrumptious food up against the fireplace- little pricey, but what the heck isn’t up there? Did you hit Palavicino at A-Basin? I’ve had many a yard sale on that run..enjoy!!

By Lew

December 31, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

Herman-I don’t know, but Smoltz used to do lawn mower commercials.

By Chief Nock A Homa

December 31, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

Eric…

But now you don’t even want to consider having him back?? Even for 2 mil and some nobody minor leaguer in exchange?? It just seems worth the gamble….

I’m with LEW: Why in the world did we not make a run at Brad Penny with the deal he took??? That would have been worth a look, too…

DOB: Why are we so adamant not to work towards a Manny signing?? Bobby, Chpper, Smoltzie, et al have always been able to manage the odd personalities… I don’t care for Manny personally, and I’m sure several of the guys in the locker room probably feel the same, but if it puts us in the chase, isn’t it worth it??

By Eric from MO

December 31, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this

Austin he had the worse batting average with RISP. If any decent hitter had the oppurtunities that AJ had they would of had 150 rbis. Yeah he is only 31 but it is a very old 31. His body is broken down.

By AGTfan

December 31, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this

DOB One of my favorite times in the last so many years was when I discovered this blog. I really do think you’re one of the best writers covering baseball today and we’ve been fortunate to have you cover the Braves. This blog has an awfull lot of great contributors (including a few Mets Trolls) and a few total idiots. I won’t name any names either way. I’m sure that I, personally have fallen into the total idiot category more than I’ve made it into the great contributor one. Regardless, reading this blog has been one of my favorite pastimes this last year and has helped to ease my homesickness up here in Illinois. I look forward to another year of following the blog and the Braves even if it turns out to be a year to let the young players find their way.

A parting gift to you is a musician to check out. There’s a guy named Zach Williams living in Brooklyn now but originally from Acworth. Based on what I’ve seen of your tastes, I think you’ll like him. Check out [zachwilliams.com].

By Eric from MO

December 31, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this

Jerald, I agree Im not a fan of non baseball stuff, but some on here are and there is actually no rule against it. Acually DOB kind of encourages it with the song lyrics at the beganing of every blog. So just do what i do, when I see a post like that I quickly stop reading that post and move on.

By ncscoots

December 31, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

Am I the only one here that gets driven up the wall by all the non-baseball talk? Geeze dude, you want advice on vacationing? Try a travel agent. Sorry, but that’s the way I see it.

Newbie. Post a link to the RROE for this guy.

A sad fact that some come here and are disappointed at non-baseball posts. But this isn’t a baseball blog…it’s a blog with a unifying theme of baseball. Big difference.

I wonder if the folks who complain about the non-baseball content think that the forum went along for oh-so-many years discussing nothing but baseball and, suddenly, upon their arrival, became something else. Or would that be a simply too narcissistic viewpoint for believeability?

By Herman

December 31, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this

Random and Jerald maybe I picked the wrong time to join a baseball blog with my gardening and blogging interest. sorry I’ll keep it just about baseball.

will the Atlanta braves win it all this year? go braves!!!!

By hoot

December 31, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this

The Braves will need a capable left hander in the rotation to compete in the NL east. Three possibilities: Oliver Perez, Jonathan Sanchez, Andy Petitte (maybe also Eric Bedard- gamble). One of these… maybe even two, and a right handed lf bat would take the Braves into the spring in pretty good shape; especially if the bat is above average.

By Chief Nock A Homa

December 31, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this

ncscoots:

If you look at the top of the blog, I think you’ll see where it reads “BRAVES BLOG”…

Unless “Braves” has suddenly turned into a singular word to mean “blog with a unifying theme of baseball”, you have the sad fact correct, but are the one that has the misunderstanding…

Don’t get me wrong - I don’t hate the other interests on the blog, but let’s get it right… This is a beat blog about the Atlanta Braves….

By Bring Me the Head of Deforest Kelley

December 31, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this

A slingshot around the sun and you’re in timewarp. Dammit I’m no rocket scientist, but I did happen to find a copy of this same blog from NEXT year at the unclaimed inbox next to the transporter pad…

Let’s reflect on the 2009 Braves:

-first 100 loss season since 1990.

-contended all year with Nationals for Last Place in the NL East.

-18 different pitchers used in starting rotation. Only one (Jair Jurjjens) put together a winning record and an ERA under 4.00.

-Javier Vasquez pitched 4 complete games in 2009, to highlight a season in which he went 4-13 with an ERA of 5.15.

-Francouer improves his batting average… to .245.

-Bobby Cox quoted as saying “I’m very proud of my players and what they accomplished this year. We just missed a few breaks along the way. A ball drops here or there, or we get a couple more calls at the plate, and we’d be playing in October.”

-Frank Wren indicates the Braves are only a player or two away from fielding a competitive team. “The problem is”, as he describes it “only half of our roster is composed of native Georgians. We really need a couple more Georgia-born players on our staff, because they feel more comfortable playing at home.” Trade rumors circulate that Kyle Davies is on Wren’s wishlist for 2010 because “Kyle pitched a lot innings with the Royals in 2009, and we need that kind of workhorse in our rotation.”

-Schureholz makes statements regarding three other talent agencies about their unethical, immoral, childish behavior during negotiations and issues ultimatums that they shape up, or they risk not dealing with the Braves in the future. The agencies don’t bother to respond.

-Tom Glavine still on the comeback trail for 2010.

By Random

December 31, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this

Don: “Smoltz (in fortys, 5 significant arm operations, only 1 good year in recent years)”

Are you still spreadin’ your ignorant effin’ lies?

Let me repeat my initial rebuttal:

Smoltz has had good to great seasons three out of the last four — 2005, 2006 & 2007:

667.1 IP, 577 Ks, 135 uiBBs, 3.22 ERA, 1.14 uiWHIP.

He logged over 200 IP each year, with ERAs between 3.00 and 3.50 and WHIPs between 1.15 and 1.20.

(I’ll let other denizens address your slanderous slurs against the manager and coaches.)

Y.A.I.

By AustinBraves

December 31, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

We all talk about how much we need pitching, but has anyone really looked at last year stats. We only had two guys with 85, and 87 rbis and we didn’t even have a guy with 30 homeruns. We lost over 25 games by 1 run. Our pitchers would have looked alot better with some run support. WE NEED A BIG BAT!!!!!!

By Steve from OH

December 31, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

Chief NAH: DOB is in charge of the blog, and what he says goes. Deal with it. If he wants to have music/food/whatever discussions, it’s his perogative. Doesn’t matter what he titles the blog, if he decides to have a music discussion, well, that’s just tough tomatoes. If you can’t deal with it, post on Bradley’s blog or something.

By nolie

December 31, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this

Same thing goes for the song lyrics. There’s gotta be a blog for crap like that. Jerald

the scroll-wheel is your friend dude.

By Payroll

December 31, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this

Can someone explain something to me?

Why aren’t we going after Derek Lowe or any other free agent?

As it stands right now:

Hudson - 13 million

Chipper - 11 million

Vasquez - 11.5 million

Soriano - 6.1 million

McCann - 3.5 million

Ross - 1.5 million

Norton - 800 K

That is 47.4 million in 7 players for 2009.

Here is the arbitration eligible guys with projected 2009 salaries:

Gonzalez - 2.4 million in 2008 (4 million in 2009)

Kotchman - 1.45 million in 2008 (2.5 million in 2009)

Infante - 1.4 million in 2008 (2 million in 2009)

Diaz - 1.22 million in 2008 (1.8 million in 2009)

Francoeur - 460 K in 2008 (1.5 million in 2009)

Johnson - 430 K in 2008 (2 million in 2009)

That is 13.8 million for 6 arb. eligible players. Let’s assume it may jump up to 15-17 million as my estimations were just that, guesses.

61.2 million for 13 players. Let’s call it 63 million. Then there are 12 players making close to the league minimum. Let’s give those players an average of 450 K. So add on 5.4 million to 63 million.

68.4 million so far for the Braves 2009 payroll. Round it up to 70 million. The payroll last year, according to Cots was 102 million. They aren’t taking into account Kotsay and Hampton’s contracts(7 million of Hampton was already paid for and 4 million of Kotsay was being paid for by the A’s). So our payroll was really 91.4 million. Round up to 92.

So we have roughly 22 million annually to spend on additions to this team. Add to it the Braves said that they would increase payroll, so figure another 8 million to get the number to 30 million annually.

70 million currently, with room for a 100 million dollar payroll.

But wait, part of Tim Hudson’s contract may be paid for by insurance. So add on like 8-10 million of potential spending there too.

Like I said to open this post, the Braves have the money to go after Lowe. They also have the money to sign Adam Dunn and Oliver Perez too.

Lowe - 15 m per year

Dunn - 13 m per year

Perez - 12 m per year

That is 40 million and a 110 million dollar payroll for 2009. Minus Hudson’s insurance money and you have a 100 million dollar payroll.

Should the Braves be cautious because these contracts will have to be paid in 2010 and beyond? Sure. But Wren said they plan on competing in 2009. If he wasn’t serious about that, than he should of never said it. OR the Braves are feeling the economic crunch and have re-assessed their stance on 2009….

PAYROLL

By flange1

December 31, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

Efrim and Lew,

I have been very pro- Frank Wren this off season even with the unfortunate turn of events we have seen on at least 3 deals.

I think he tried hard on Furcal, AJ and Peavy and things just didn’t go our way.

But I am little miffed why we were not in on Brad Penny.

I will be more miffed and a bit frustrated if the Braves are not at least to a small extent in on D Lowe if nothing more than to drive the price up for the Mets.

The teams goal was to upgrade their pitching and with the best of the best either already signed or not available by trade, the Braves MUST look into the remaining FA or look to the trade market.

Maybe we can work another trade for a decent pitcher.

The other option is for FW to come out and tell us the team has changed its prognosis for 2009, and instead of contending, will be looking to gain experience for some of the younger players.

I don’t want to bash FW, but I am ready for him to make a move even if the Braves are shot down again.

Thoughts?

By Lew

December 31, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

Random-Too many comments are non baseball? You mean like your 10:35 post to Jerald?

Bravesfan-How much younger should we get, do you think? Are you aware that unless we do sign Glavine or Smoltz that we have only two players (Chipper and Norton) who are over 31 years old? That there are only nine players on the 40 man roster over 30? Are you aware that as currently constituted (without Shafer, even) that the average age of the Braves is 26.8 years old?

Are you aware that other than Chipper, Soriano and Vasquez have the only large contracts, hence there ain’t anyone to dump for salary purposes?

Dude, if you’re really that big a Braves fan, you should know this. We’re already a young team with damn few large salries.

By AGTfan

December 31, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

I wonder if the folks who complain about the non-baseball content think that the forum went along for oh-so-many years discussing nothing but baseball and, suddenly, upon their arrival, became something else. Or would that be a simply too narcissistic viewpoint for believeability?

Scoots,

Are you implying that this blog existed before I got here? I can’t believe that.

It’s the flavor added by the non-baseball, non-Braves stuff that makes this one of the best sports blogs anywhere. I would guess that it’s fairly successful with the DOB format, since it gets about a gazillion hits a day. And that’s just me checking to what’s new.

By Eware

December 31, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

DOB, I was in Copper for the past week. I couldn’t believe how wide open the slopes were. People at the resort we thanking us for coming out this year, blaming their poor numbers on the economy.

For those that enjoy skiing/snowboarding - now is the perfect time to go. My family and I never waited in line at the lifts, which is unbelievable.

I hope you had as much fun as we did, DOB.

By Eric from MO

December 31, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

Chief 2 million is to much. I dont want him taking up a roster spot. Why do you think the Dodgers want to get rid o him.

By Steve from OH

December 31, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this

flange, I’m not too miffed about Penny (injury and conditioning were concerns, I believe), but I’m with you on Lowe. I hope FW is secretly bidding on him. I’m reading that the Mets probably won’t go higher than 3/40, in which case, we’d better be able to step in and outbid them. Lowe, to me, is the best available option right now, and we’ve got a chance to get him at a relative bargain.

If we let the Mets sign him at 3/36-40, then I will call that a bad move by FW.

By Efrim

December 31, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this

Flange1

But I am little miffed why we were not in on Brad Penny.

We are probably going to ink John Smoltz, so that is already one injury risk that we are going to give guaranteed money to. I’m hoping Wren can get more of a sure thing than Brad Penny. And Penny, again, cited his desire to play for a contender.

By Chief Nock A Homa

December 31, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this

Steve from OH:

Thanks for the tip on DOB being in charge - didn’t realize that… Thought it just randomly popped up form time to time…

Actually, it’s a property of the AJC if you want to get technical about it…

BTW… Please make sure to FULLY read someone’s post before lighting them up…

If you read what I wrote, you would see that I didn’t say anything that would cause a normal poster to “go off” on my post…

As a matter of fact, here it is again so you can read it clearly this time:

“Don’t get me wrong - I don’t hate the other interests on the blog, but let’s get it right… This is a beat blog about the Atlanta Braves….”

You can see, again, that it’s not that I hate the other interests, but the FACT is, that it is a BRAVES beat blog…

That’s all that I pointed out…

BTW….. DOB doesn’t name the blog - the AJC does… I’m sure if DOB wanted to name the blog something like “Braves, Music, Food and More,” the AJC would NOT approve it… You think??? I mean, seriously, get real….

By sam

December 31, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this

This has been a wierd offseason for the Braves but I’m still optimistic that something is happening behind the scenes. Is there going to be a Braves Fanfest this year? Oh and Happy New Year Stamper!

By Random

December 31, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this

In the meantime, let’s hear your thoughts on what’s stood out these past five or six years.

Apr 25, 2008, at NY Mets, James Jurrjens’ first road win for the Braves, where he totally lost his composure in the face of several questionable ball-strike calls, and then totally regained it, throwing 5 perfect innings out of 6.

First and scond innings — three up, three down.

Third inning — Anderson and Casanova single, Pelfrey and Reyes ground out.

Two outs, runners at second and third.

Castillo walks.

Wright walks, Anderson scores.

Beltran walks, Casanova scores.

Church walks, Castillo scores.

Pagan strikes out.

Fourth, fifth, sixth innings — three up, three down.

Quite a demonstration of regaining control of self and game for a rookie, and a good preview of his future.

By Chief Nock A Homa

December 31, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this

Eric:

Your position is understood… I think 2 mill is worth the leap for the possibility, but, who knows…

But, I have to say that I don’t understand your comment “Why do you think the Dodgers want to get rid of him?”

With that kind of logic, no team would ever sign a player that another team is trying to trade after having a bad year…. You know what I mean??

By Efrim

December 31, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this

Payroll

Not bad. But I think that point about having to pay these guys past 2009 is important. Yes, Wren said he wanted to compete. But he never said he wanted to rid the Braves of any payroll flexibility past 2009 as players like Johnson, Escobar, Kotchman, McCann and Francoeur get paid more.

All that said, the Braves should still be able to sign(or trade for) two players to 8 digit deals while still being able to manage the payroll from 2010 and beyond.

By Original Jon

December 31, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this

How does 3 years of losing, after 14 straight Division Titles make a non contender? Im sick and tired of hearing how players want to play for a contender but dont want to play for us. We would be a contender if that player would just sign or get traded to us. But they dont see it that way I guess, they just look at the past few years and think, ‘Oh heck, Atlanta isnt going to win anything anytime soon, so I will sign elsewhere, even if it means taking less money to do so’. All the while forgetting the fact that we have a good team, just had too many injuries to our starting staff. Heck, were not the Pirates or Royals, so why diss us?

By BravesFanInRockies

December 31, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this

Efrim,

Happy New Year.

You also have to wonder if Liberty doesn’t want to sign many guys to long-term deals because they’re going to sell as soon as they’ve gotten all the tax benefits they can realize from buying the Braves. They’ll want to keep the farm system strong because that offers the next owner a lot of value down the road. But you don’t want a lot of money tied up in lengthy contracts for older players. (Which is why the Cubs might be a tough sell, especially in the current economy.)

When might Liberty decide to pull the trigger — 2010, 2011?

By Jerald Holcombe

December 31, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this

Sorry Lew, I completely didn’t realize that this is the AJC Sports page and that music, vacationing spots, and all other non-sports stuff belongs here. Please forgive me.

By O'brien

December 31, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

Are the Braves not interested in Manny because of his defensive shortcomings, because of his attitude, or because he’s a Boras guy, or all of the above?

I agree he has issues, but he puts up numbers every year. And if its only a 2 year deal, I think Chipper, Cox and Smoltz could keep him under control.

And since the Dodgers are exploring Dunn, I think Manny could be bought for cheap because there is no market for him. Manny will be playing with a chip on his shoulder, trying to prove to the rest of the league that they were wrong for not giving him the contract he wants.

And then we could always trade him next season if he’s not working out. Plus a 2 year deal, 3rd year team option ($16-$20 mil per) would not block our prospects.

And Manny would help make the Braves relevant again. Nobody talks about the Braves anymore (3 straight years without a playoff appearance). It’s all about the Mets, Phillies, Yankees, Red Sox etc.

Comments?

By BravesFanInRockies

December 31, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this

Jerald Holcombe,

C’mon, it’s New Year’s Eve. Where’s the holiday spirit?

By The Artist Formerly Known as Too Hot For Teacher

December 31, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this

I really liked the year before all the baby braves hit. i really liked the energy that Charles Thomas brought - he ended up being a one hit wonder but it was fun. Wasn’t it skip that called our OF the “kudzu crew” with JD Drew, Andrew, and Chucky T in the OF - there weren’t many balls that hit the OF grass the second half of that year.

I personally will also never forget the Randy Johnson game. I watched it sitting on the coach in the Coca Cola sky field and when Eddie Perez walked out to pinch hit for Hampton (who was dominant that game as well) the guy sitting near me wen ballastic - “Eddie Perez! Eddie Pereze! It’s like we’re not even trying!” He may have been the only person in the stadium NOT pulling for Randy.

I also remember when Smoltz nailed a game down in late Sept one year to pass the Phillies for first place in the East and he went nuts and the stadium went nuts, and the state of GA collectively gave the state of Philadelphia the finger.

By Random

December 31, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this

Lew: “Too many comments are non baseball? You mean like your 10:35 post to Jerald?”

Nope — that was on the meta-baseball level. (And you may consider this one meta-meta-baseball.)

8-)

PS: Braves should sign Smoltz; Lowe; Kawakami; and either Abreu, Dunn or Bradley. (Back to non-non-baseball.)

By Jerald Holcombe

December 31, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this

Pardon me all, I didn’t mean to start anything. I just voiced an opinion that this is a baseball blog and should be just that. By all means, continue sloppin it up. Maybe that’s why so many of the knowledgeable guys that used to be here decided to leave.

By Jack G

December 31, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this

Does not matter who the braves sign, as long as Cox and his coaches are on the field, results will be the same in 09 as they were in 08.

Cox and coaches are one of the reasons that all the free agents are not signing with the Braves—-No one wants to play for an over the hill has been manager

By BravesFanInRockies

December 31, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

Folks, Manny has more than “issues.” He quit on the Red Sox during the middle of the summer. He decided when he wanted to play and when he didn’t. When the Sox unloaded him, they paid his entire salary. They essentially gave him away just to get rid of him, fully realizing that Ortiz might not get healthy and by doing that they may be walking away from a deep run in the playoffs.

I understand that he may be one of the half-dozen greatest right handed hitters since WWII, if not ever. But he’s a cancer on the clubhouse. Gary Sheffield’s an Eagle Scout compared to Manny.

You want T.O.-style drama with the Braves? Sign Manny. Not. going. to. happen.

By flange1

December 31, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this

CNOH and Jerald,

Guys you are fighting a losing battle. Lots of us have been here for years and the theme to this blog has always been the same.

It is not going to change because newbies like you guys want it to change.

If you don’t like it, either do like Nolie said and scroll right on by it, or just find another blog you like better.

Sorry if you are offended by this, but that is the way it is because DOB said so……

By The Goche

December 31, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this

No DOB is not paid to write on music or BBQ or places to eat when on vacation.

But he is also not paid to write 2 or 3 blogs a week, when nothing is happening in the first place. In fact, most beat writers either don’t blog at all, or do it only very summarily to appease their bosses.

He is certainly not paid to write a blog when he is literally on vacation. Especially since literally nothing is currently happening. I mean, Wren is on vacation too, so even if anything is happening let’s just say Frank is probably not taking calls from reporters right this second.

This guy goes way above and beyond what is necessary. The biggest factor in why this blog is good is because this guy actually interacts with the readers.

Most blogs, especially by old media people, are just short news bursts that come with a message board. Dave actually reads all these comments and answers questions.

I wish someone could figure just how much time DOB has spent on this blog in the last year. What does he get for it? Nothing more than he would get if he just filed his stories like the old style beat writers.

If this guy is going to spend all this extra time on us, I think he deserves the chance to insert his own personality in the blog.

If you don’t like the music or the BBQ, you can feel free not to read the baseball part either. Because they don’t come separately and there is no reason they should.

What’s especially pathetic is that you whine about this now of all times. THERE IS NOTHING TO BLOG ABOUT! Literally nothing, just go to mlbtraderumors.com and see for yourself. There is nothing interesting happening anywhere.

But despite that our beat writer came in off the slopes to post up a new blog, just to give us somewhere to discuss.

Maybe we can get lucky and one day we can get a beat writer who has no personality, just a baseball blogging robot, that sure sounds fun.

By Jerald Holcombe

December 31, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this

In reference to Andruw Jones, he did have a crappy season last year for the Dodgers. But, wasn’t he injured for a good portion of the year? And didn’t he get booed big time by the Dodger denizens when he started out in a slump. Andruw has always been a little immature in his thinking. He didn’t want to change his hitting style when he was here and he resisted at every turn, but he had good production numbers most of the time. It also didn’t help that he had a hitting instructor like Pendletion, who in my opinion is the absolute worse in baseball at his job and who gets waaay too much camera time during games. Andruw is unhappy with the Dodgers and he has Scott Boras to thank for that. He should fire Boras and go back to listening to his father in contractual matters. I am one of the few that believe that Andruw would benefit by coming back to Atlanta. And for those of you that think that Andruw can’t play defense anymore, are you freakin’ kidding me?

By Random

December 31, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this

nolie: “the scroll-wheel is your friend dude.”

True.

I wish DOB (and many others) had remembered that back when Shaun and I (and a few others) were trying to have a discussion about MVP criteria. You know — Major League Baseball MVP?

By Jerald Holcombe

December 31, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

ncscoots Sorry to burst your bubble, but I’m not a newbie. I was posting on these blogs before DOB and Chop Chick came along. I just stopped posting for one reason or another. Too many posts in one blog is one reason and way too busy is another one. When I go back to work next week, I’ll probably go back to just reading posts again. But just to reiterate, maybe I’m an a*******hole, but not a newbie.

By J

December 31, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

if the dodgers were really willing to pay around 20MM out of 22.1MM owed to AJ and it wouldnt cost any top prospects then i would Love to see the braves bring him back - why not take the chance? just my thought.. and Hopefully they push hard for Lowe

2010 - hudson Lowe JJ Hanson vazquez seems pretty damn good to me

By BravesFanInRockies

December 31, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this

Jerald,

Aside from his failure to make adjustments, which you noted, I wonder if Andruw is breaking down because of the innings he piled up in CF over the years (he became a a regular at at age 19, after all) and the way he attacks the baseball with no regard for his body. He’s had knee, back and shoulder problems for several seasons and essentially refused to take time off, even to leave in the final innings of blowouts; it was only in 2008 that he had to take significant time away. He couldn’t simply rest a few days and heal enough to get back out there.

I’m also not convinced TP is an awful hitting coach. To be sure, he’s not a my-way-or-the-highway guy like Charlie Lau. But it was in 2005, after all, that Pendleton convinced Andruw to change his stance and he then had his two best seasons as a HR hitter.

Andruw then went back to his old ways and see what happened. Maybe it’s TP’s fault that Andruw stopped listening …

The point is, between Andruw’s stubbornness and the possibility that he’ll be a very old 32 in April, I don’t want him back with the Braves. Unless we play him in RF every day and trade Frenchy.

By Jerald Holcombe

December 31, 2008 12:42 PM | Link to this

We all talk about how much we need pitching, but has anyone really looked at last year stats. We only had two guys with 85, and 87 rbis and we didn’t even have a guy with 30 homeruns. We lost over 25 games by 1 run. Our pitchers would have looked alot better with some run support. WE NEED A BIG BAT!!!!!!

AustinBrave Thank you. You make a very valid point and that is why I think the Braves should at least consider the possibility of signing Manny Ramirez. With a player of his caliber batting cleanup, maybe Bobby wouldn’t feel compelled to overuse his bullpen so much and allow his starters to go further in games.

By AustinBraves

December 31, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this

Jerald- Amen to that. Andrew will be a star somewhere next year why not here.

By Random

December 31, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies: “Folks, Manny has more than “issues.” He quit on the Red Sox during the middle of the summer. He decided when he wanted to play and when he didn’t.”

You know, that sounds a LOT like Babe Ruth’s last season with the Red Sox.

What the heck ever happened to him, anyway — has anybody heard recently?

By TommyP

December 31, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this

What does everyone think about the new MLB Network?

I believe it begins Jan.1st?????

It’s available to 50 million households which is over 4 times as many as the NFL Network when it started.

I, for one, can not wait for it to air.

By AustinBraves

December 31, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this

What has Terry Pendleton done for the Braves in the past few years. Team home runs 2nd worst in NL 130. I think he’s the problem.

By Henry

December 31, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this

Andruw didn’t just have a lousy year with the Dodgers in 08; it was the continuation of the horrible season he had with the Braves in 07. Have you forgotten the picture of that horrible swing he developed? Completely off-balance, completely ineffective. I lost count of the weak grounders to short turned into rally-killiing DPs.

I love what Druw did for this team for 11+ years before that, but he’s not the answer to any rational question at this point.

By AustinBraves

December 31, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this

Jerald- The only thing about Manny is can he be a team player. Teams win titles not players.

By Fred

December 31, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

Here are 2 of my favorite memories of the 14 consecutive division titles.

1) Galarraga’s return from cancer, including his making the all-star game in Atlanta and (if I recall correctly) a homerun in his first game back.

2) Standing in line for post-season tickets at the old stadium in 1991. I was a college freshman at the time and skipped my morning classes to wait in line all morning. The spirit and excitement down there was incredible.

By Jerald Holcombe

December 31, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies

But remember that Sheffield WAS an eagle scout when he played for Bobby. The same could happen with Manny. The fact remains that 2009 will not get any better unless we get someone to light up the scoreboard. Manny is the only one available that can do that. I wouldn’t be opposed to Abreu, but he’s just not dominant. Dunn is the worst defensively and watching someone strikeout 2 or 3 times a game is not my idea of sport entertainment. Burrell is just too iffy.

By Jerald Holcombe

December 31, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this

flange1

There’s that word “newbie” again.

By Glorydays

December 31, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this

DOB

Can you prove that you and Mark Bradley are not the same person? I think not!!

By flange1

December 31, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this

Efrim,

You are right that FW might be into signing Smoltz and not wanting another injury prone guy to deal with like Penny.

I would still like to see FW court Lowe and or Ben Sheets at least a little.

By Jersey Gil

December 31, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this

TommyP Here in Jersey the MLB Network just start yesterday, They just show some clip of old great games, and old some great Moment like the Sid Bream slide at home, that make me cry….This MLB Network going to be Great…Tommorow at 6:00 Pm is the First “Hor Stove” show. The Network also planning to Show the WBC from all venue.

By TheManMike

December 31, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

I love all the trash talk from folks who dont know the way this blog, and others work. Its a Braves Blog. For Braves Fans. Not a Baseball Blog for Baseball fans. DOB is our BOY! I enjoy his posts and am saddened when there are days misssed. I watch this blog and Falcons blog daily, and its simply NIGHT AND DAY in comparison. This is a fun, insightful, stupid-go-lucky blog and I LOVE IT! And apparently so do MANY MANY Others, as this blogs seems to ALWAYS get hammered with comments. Look at Falcons blog, THEY ARE IN THE PLAYOFFS AND ONLY LIKE 25 COMMENTS! HAHA..Laughable.

DOB - Keep up the great work. Keep the music coming. These ney-sayers will ALL whither away when the season starts. Do they not understand its WINTER?!?!

GO TO BED!

Hers a GREAT SONG:

“Subterranean HomeSick Blues” - Bob Dylan

Johnny’s in the basement Mixing up the medicine I’m on the pavement Thinking about the government The man in the trench coat Badge out, laid off Says he’s got a bad cough Wants to get it paid off Look out kid It’s somethin’ you did God knows when But you’re doin’ it again You better duck down the alley way Lookin’ for a new friend The man in the coon-skin cap In the big pen Wants eleven dollar bills You only got ten

Maggie comes fleet foot Face full of black soot Talkin’ that the heat put Plants in the bed but The phone’s tapped anyway Maggie says that many say They must bust in early May Orders from the D. A. Look out kid Don’t matter what you did Walk on your tip toes Don’t try “No Doz” Better stay away from those That carry around a fire hose Keep a clean nose Watch the plain clothes You don’t need a weather man To know which way the wind blows

Get sick, get well Hang around a ink well Ring bell, hard to tell If anything is goin’ to sell Try hard, get barred Get back, write braille Get jailed, jump bail Join the army, if you fail Look out kid You’re gonna get hit But users, cheaters Six-time losers Hang around the theaters Girl by the whirlpool Lookin’ for a new fool Don’t follow leaders Watch the parkin’ meters

Ah get born, keep warm Short pants, romance, learn to dance Get dressed, get blessed Try to be a success Please her, please him, buy gifts Don’t steal, don’t lift Twenty years of schoolin’ And they put you on the day shift Look out kid They keep it all hid Better jump down a manhole Light yourself a candle Don’t wear sandals Try to avoid the scandals Don’t wanna be a bum You better chew gum The pump don’t work ‘Cause the vandals took the handles

By Lew

December 31, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

Jerald-No need to apologize. If you don’t like the non baseball stuff, then skim past it or find an all Baseball blog where you’ll be happier-or just talk about Braves and most likely someone will respond to you.

This is one of the more popular blogs around. A good bit of the reason that we constantly go over 1000 posts per blog is that many of us enjoy talking about other topics-especially when there isn’t a damn thing going on and we do get tired of talking up the same old tired projected trades-some of which make no sense whatsoever.

It’s your prerogative to talk nonsense deals if you want, but many of us would rather compare notes on good music, movies, literature and food, so I refer you back to my first paragraph.

Random-Meta meta baseball? Do I feel a fluctuation in your BABIP on the horizon?

By Whatever

December 31, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

But it was in 2005, after all, that Pendleton convinced Andruw to change his stance and he then had his two best seasons as a HR hitter.

Willie Mays widened Andruw’s stance, not Terry.

Chipper and McCann have their daddies so Terry can’t take credit for them. Has Terry made any one better? He should be fired just because he was the overseer when two of the franchise’s biggest talents, Andruw and Frenchy, tanked. He also couldn’t curb the dramatic decline of Giles. He also hasn’t somehow gotten one more year out of a vet, hasn’t made a starter out of a utility guy, hasn’t launched KJ, Frenchy or Escobar into studs.

Why does Terry still have a job as a hitting coach? The Braves need to hire Daddy McCann and Larry Wayne Jones, Sr. because they’re the only ones making our hitters better. FIRE TERRY!

No one wants to come here because Bobby won’t commit to more than a year at a time. Bobby, in addition to his boobery when it comes to tactical decisions, has now become a liability in attracting talent.

I got a simple policy at my work: no one is allowed to have one foot in and one foot out the door. If you are nice and give me two weeks notice, and say you’ll work the next two to make sure the work gets done, I say don’t do me no half asked favors homey. I’ll pay for those two weeks but here’s a box, get your sh!t and get the hell out NOW. No good work will get done while you’re on your two week farewell tour. No one is allowed to have one foot in, one foot out. Get the hell out.

The Braves need to climb back up the mountain. Bobby won’t make it to the mountain top, When you’ve let yourselves fall back to rock bottom like the Braves have, the sole focus of everyone in the entire franchise should be on reaching the mountain top. This one year contract b.s. by Bobby is Bobby’s way of saying he ain’t got any plans to scale it all the way back up the mountain with the rest of the franchise. The talent that wants to sign contracts or be traded here knows that so they are running away. Cox is a liability. The Braves need to cut their losses. Fire Bobby Cox!

By Jerald Holcombe

December 31, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this

Personally, I don’t credit Andruws physical problems with playing all the time. His weight has more to do with his problems than anything else you can suggest. I would love to see him get serious about his health.

By Herman

December 31, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

no way!!!!! Jerald you were blogging here before anybody even before Mr. Ob? That must be many years. did the blog just change all of a sudden recently to allow other interests like food and music and vacations? I’m a “newbie” too but like you not an a* either. well, maybe if you ask those pests in my garden they would think so. Ha!!!!!

back to the braves now. Random, are you serious? you must be a newbie to baseball like me but so you know, Babe Ruth died many years ago. He was great and he was called “the babe”!!!

By Salty Dawg

December 31, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

raymond

this article was a waste of time. I can’t believe they pay you to do this, and stop with the stupid song lyrics.

Then don’t read it. There are plenty of pure mlb blogs out there, so find one and enjoy.

Efrim

There has to be a reason that the Braves have little interest in Lowe. My guess is that they a) Don’t want to be used to drive up the price for a team that Derek actually wants to play for, and b) the Braves might have already heard from Lowe that his first choice to to play for a contender.

Unless, of course, the team he actually wants to play for is a division rival. In that case, getting in the mix is a win-win situation. If the Braves don’t get him, at least they can make the Mets overpay for him. Not making an offer and letting the Mets pick Lowe up on the cheap while retaining payroll flexibility is worst case.

Jerald Holcombe

*Am I the only one here that gets driven up the wall by all the non-baseball talk? Geeze dude, you want advice on vacationing? Try a travel agent. Sorry, but that’s the way I see it. *

No, but it is what it is. Call it local flavor. Again, there are plenty of bland mlb-only blogs out there. But frankly, there isn’t enough going on in baseball to fill a blog right now. I’m much more annoyed by people who post questions or scenarios that have been discussed ad nauseum than people who post their favorite local BBQ joint.

Jerald Holcombe

Same thing goes for the song lyrics. There’s gotta be a blog for crap like that.

There is and you’ve found it. Enjoy.

By Doug

December 31, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this

The Cubbies signed Aaron Miles and looks like they might move DeRosa. How about bringing him back to play LF or 2B?

By BravesFanInRockies

December 31, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

Jerald,

If Bobby can get Manny to act like an Eagle Scout, then he has no business in baseball. He should be a special envoy to the Middle East!

Whatever,

Didn’t realize that about Willie Mays. If that’s right, I stand corrected. All I remember was that at the time Joe Morgan was raving about how TP had worked with Andruw. And since Joe and Willie are so close, I figured he would have given the Say Hey Kid props were that the case.

By Jerald Holcombe

December 31, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

Can Manny be a team player? I’ll answer that by saying that when he played for Cleveland you never heard a peep. Also, after he signed that huge contract with Boston, how many years elapsed before trouble started. Is it quite possible that the Red Sox actually quit on Manny and not the other way around. Manny also played great for the Dodgers without mishap. I’m think “much ado about nothing”.

By Doug

December 31, 2008 1:31 PM | Link to this

Sorry… looks like DeRosa is headed to Cleveland. Figures.

By Herman

December 31, 2008 1:32 PM | Link to this

isn’t Bobby Cox a gardener too and he has a farm too?

By Lew

December 31, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

I live in New England and the Red Sox Soap Opera is always front and center up here.

The Red Sox were in the process of suspending Manny for being Manny, when they dumped him-even eating his salary- to the Dodgers. The Dude had flat out refused to play in games and had alienated almost every other person in their clubhouse, just because he wanted his contract renegotiated.

The Dude can hit, but give up on this Pipe Dream. There is no way Bobby Cox or the Braves are ever going to let Manny be Manny in Atlanta. Y’all b!tch and moan when Chipper misses games for very real injuries. How do you think you’ll deal with a player who misses games for headaches, hangnails and contrived situations that bother no one except him? Believe me, that’s what you’ll end up with.

Sheff may have been a pain in the @$$, but at least he was willing to play-and he wasn’t even making $25 million or more a year.

By Salty Dawg

December 31, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this

Regarding Frank Wren:

Damn I hope he has some things working and is just keeping it close to the vest because of recent events. Otherwise this is going to be the most depressing off season I can recall in many years. Honestly I think he will get something done, but as the days tick by I am less and less convinced that it will be anything substantial.

Regarding Andruw Jones:

If the Dodgers are willing to pick up $20 mil, why not bring him back. If he turns things around, even modestly, it will be worth the investment. If he doesn’t, we aren’t out that much. At this point, Andruw has all of the incentive in the world to get in shape and fix his problems at the plate.

Regarding Man Ram:

Why not give it a shot? I don’t see him taking a deal from Atlanta, but if the goal is to improve the team as much as possible, he is arguably the most impactful player available. This is a guy that can put an entire team on his shoulders and win games. This is a guy that can bail pitchers out and win games in late innings. This is a guy that can make the difference in those one-run games we all grew to dread last season. Again, this is a guy who has all of the incentive in the world to repair his reputation.

By Lew

December 31, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this

If Manny was such a good boy on the Dodgers, then why aren’t they re-signing him? Enquiring minds want to know. If they can afford to eat about $16 mil of Andruw’s salary, seems to me that picking up the tab for Manny being Manny shouldn’t be overly prohibitive-especially since the Red Sox paid for his L.A. Pennant drive..

By AustinBraves

December 31, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this

I think theirs going to be a BIG TRADE but everything will be quite until its a done deal. I think something is going on between Toronto and Atlanta. Just wait to you see Halladay, and Rios as a Brave. Then everyone will think Wren is a hero. Braves will win the division

By Shaun

December 31, 2008 2:00 PM | Link to this

Salty Dawg, I don’t see how next season is likely to be worse than 2008. May not be much better but it shouldn’t be worse.

I don’t know if re-acquiring Andruw is such a good idea. Even if the Dodgers pick up a huge portion of his salary, the Braves are still using up a roster spot on a player that could be well beyond finished. Apparently he’s even far from the defensive player he once was. Also if you have a player who was once as good as Andruw, any manager would be tempted to give him more chances than they probably should. Andruw may be worth a look for some teams but I can’t think of many (any?).

Regarding Manny, if the Braves could some how get him for pennies on the dollar, sure. But that’s not going to happen. Plus, a) he adds nothing on defense or on the basepaths and b) he’s probably going to be more expensive and provide less band for the buck than other players the Braves could insert in leftfield over the next several seasons.

Manny is still a great hitter. He’s probably going to be a great-to-good hitter for a few more seasons. But he’s not likely to remain one of the top hitters in the game for many more seasons. And, again, he doesn’t add anything on defense or on the basepaths…in fact, he probably harms his team in those areas.

By Original Jon

December 31, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this

AustinBraves Toronto is not trading Halladay and Rios to us, so stop it.

By Hytest

December 31, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this

I Don’t understand………..I read MLB trade and ESPN rumors. What in the HE77 are the BRAVES doing. All these signings with other teams.. The Braves have all their payroll clean and they are on vacation….Sitting on the hands. We lost almost 100 games and we lost 3 pitchers and we have done nothing…………..

By AustinBraves

December 31, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this

Cubs trade DeRosa and Marquis and dump $9mill in salary to set up Peavy trade. Braves to late again.

By AustinBraves

December 31, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

Original Jon- Can a true Braves fan not Dream. The world is made of Dreams.

By Salty Dawg

December 31, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this

Lew

If Manny was such a good boy on the Dodgers, then why aren’t they re-signing him? Enquiring minds want to know. If they can afford to eat about $16 mil of Andruw’s salary, seems to me that picking up the tab for Manny being Manny shouldn’t be overly prohibitive-especially since the Red Sox paid for his L.A. Pennant drive..

Coletti has already stated that Manny is their first choice. I think the Dodgers are playing hard ball with Bora$$ because there is NO market for Manny and the Dodgers are in the driver’s seat for a change. I don’t recall what Bora$$ was initially looking for, but didn’t he essentially laugh off the Dodgers’ first offer without even responding (I think 2/$45 or something)? Now the Dodgers have all of the leverage. Also, and this is just my speculation, the Dodgers may be hit harder by the economy than many teams because so much of the housing bust has been in SoCal. Maybe it matters, maybe it doesn’t. Either way, I think the Dodgers want Manny back, but they are in a unique situation where they can basically set the price.

By Shaun

December 31, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this

Lew, I think the Dodgers are still the favorites for Manny. I think the stalemate with Manny is because he is represented by Boras; he wants a big contract; and he’s an older player who, for all his strengths, also has glaring weaknesses.

I’m guessing no team is going to just hand over what Manny and Boras are asking. They are going to offer what they think a soon-to-be 37-year-old, one-dimensional player is worth (or maybe a little more in order to compromise). But they aren’t going to agree to Manny and Boras’ first number.

Manny’s antics certainly don’t help but the major reason teams aren’t jumping for the chance to sign Ramirez is because he’s 37 and very much one-dimensional.

By Salty Dawg

December 31, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

Hytest

I Don’t understand………..I read MLB trade and ESPN rumors. What in the HE77 are the BRAVES doing. All these signings with other teams.. The Braves have all their payroll clean and they are on vacation….Sitting on the hands. We lost almost 100 games and we lost 3 pitchers and we have done nothing…………..

Exactly why I think the Braves are working something on the sly. I can’t imagine FW is sitting around oblivious to what is going on and I can’t imagine that JS would let him do it. The Braves have been burned publicly a couple of times already and I wouldn’t be surprised if they are working a deal or two and just being tight lipped about it.

By BravoMan

December 31, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

Yes the cubs signed Miles so they could trade DeRosa for prospects to use in the Peavy trade. Peavy never wanted to come to Atlanta so I don’t want to hear that any of our misfortunes this offseason is Frank Wren’s fault. You can’t change Peavy’s mind if he wants to go to Chicago and that’s fine. I do think the Braves should make an offer but if Wren does this and Lowe decides he wants to play on the East Coast, which he has said before, then it may prove pointless. I know im getting a little impatient as well with all these dealings happing and little has happened for us since Vazquez, but Wren said he would aquire two SP and an OF this offseason and I believe he will keep his word. Maybe he’s being secrete about a trade or dealing now because our recent misfortunes of Burnett and Furcal didn’t turn out so well. If I know Wren I bet he’s scheming right now to get a deal done.

By Jim

December 31, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

DeRosa’s ‘09 contract - last year - $5.5. He could have played LF for B’s in ‘09 under “Furcal thinking” of a couple of weeks ago. 21 HRs, 87 RBIs in ‘08. Not sure what Cubs got for him in terms of minor league pitchers - but after Miles signing, this was a salary dump for Cubs.

Kendrick, etc. for KJ, Gonzo rumor that someone mentioned above seems like a bad deal. Willits has no power, so only duplicates what B’s already have - Anderson/Blanco/Shafer. Actually Shafer might have a bit of power; and probably more a few years out.

By j-school dropout

December 31, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

I still think we should make a pitch to Manny, if for no other reason, to make the Dodgers pay more for him. We owe them one. And if we got Manny, we might not need so much pitching. Chipper and Manny would be a serious offensive punch, and we could always put in another fielder late as a defensive sub. Personally, I think this is what the Braves need. When you can’t get pitching, you need to score runs in buckets.

By Shaun

December 31, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

AustinBraves, would the Braves trading for Peavy necessarily be a good move for them?

Everyone seems to take for granted that a Peavy trade would enormously improve the Braves’ chances. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for getting Peavy if the deal is right. But say the Braves trade for Peavy, post poor to mediocre records over the next few seasons while the players they traded for Peavy develop into good major leaguers, and a few years down the road when Peavy is on the decline they fall a few wins short of a playoff berth because they lacked the depth they would have had had they not pulled the trigger on a Peavy deal back in 2008.

Again, I’m all for the Braves acquiring Peavy if the deal is the right one. But it’s also the type of deal that could backfire, which is why it didn’t get done in November.

By bigjohnchopfan

December 31, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this

Thanks for some great dining tips.

Please point me to the baseball blog.

Suckers.

By AustinBraves

December 31, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this

I don’t know if the Peavy trade would be good if we give up alot of talent. I think at this point I would rather trade for a BIG BAT or two(Maybe Dye). Then I would resign Smoltz and Glavine. Not a bad rotation. Smoltz, JJ, JV, Campillo, Tommy Hanson and maybe Glavine and don’t forget Hudson in late July. We could win with this if we could score some runs.

By ernesto

December 31, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this

DeRo would have been a good pick up for hte Bravos, in that he could spell Chipper at 3rd, play outfield or play 2nd - sure looks like the Cubs are making room to take another shot at Peavy.

Happy New Year to the blog!

By Whatever

December 31, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this

Didn’t realize that about Willie Mays. If that’s right, I stand corrected. All I remember was that at the time Joe Morgan was raving about how TP had worked with Andruw. And since Joe and Willie are so close, I figured he would have given the Say Hey Kid props were that the case.

Your first mistake was listening to Joe Morgan. Your second mistake was believing anything Joe Morgan said. Your third mistake was not knowing that when he’s given the choice between crediting two different black guys, being Joe Morgan and all, he will naturally credit the wrong black guy.

By Ron Roberts

December 31, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this

**By Hytest

December 31, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this

I Don’t understand………..I read MLB trade and ESPN rumors. What in the HE77 are the BRAVES doing. All these signings with other teams.. The Braves have all their payroll clean and they are on vacation….Sitting on the hands. We lost almost 100 games and we lost 3 pitchers and we have done nothing…………..

By AustinBraves

December 31, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this

Cubs trade DeRosa and Marquis and dump $9mill in salary to set up Peavy trade. Braves to late again.**

Guys, chill out; the peace and quiet from Tomahawk Territory tells me the Braves have circled the wagons, clamped down on the leaks and are working quietly from here on out. That’s been the Schuerholz way, and while he’s let Frank Wren do business his way, I think FW has either learned his lesson or had it spelled out for him by JS…just a hunch.

By AustinBraves

December 31, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this

Ernesto- I this point Dale Murphy would be a good pick up.

By Hytest

December 31, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this

The Braves were claming to have more money to spend than anyone(except Yankees) this off season. To DATE we have bought some egg pie for Wrens face and gave Pendelton a raise………and cut payroll by 30 million……….

By Threadkiller

December 31, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this

Ok; I have a good one for ya! It seems on MLBTR there are a couple of players willing sign short term contracts. How about this wild idea? Giambi at 1b, Dunn in Rf, Manny in Lf Frenchy in Cf, Kotchman Bench for 1 year. It will be bombs away at the Ted!! Chipper 30 Hr 100 Rbi, Dunn 40 Hr 100 Rbi, Manny 35 Hr 120 Rbi, Giambi 35 Hr 100 Rbi.

Lineup: KJ Escobar Chipper Dunn Manny Giambi McCann Frenchy Pitcher

Happy New Year Everyone!!

By N Nine

December 31, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this

Wren is quietly cooking up something for 2009. Towers did say he would quietly negotiate Peavy. Just matter of time before someone gets Peavy. I think. Lets close out this rotten year and bring in another year of baseball, hopefully a better year….

Happy 200NINE to the blog!!!

By TooManyTopics

December 31, 2008 3:08 PM | Link to this

But just to reiterate, maybe I’m an a*hole, but not a newbie. Jerald

OK I’ll accept that

By the best moment

December 31, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

Andruw Jones took a walk-off WALK on 4 PITCHES two seasons ago…the only way that would be topped is if frenchy does it this year…

my friends and I still talk about that game..

By Hytest

December 31, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

Hytest is Hytest………I read the blog daily just haven’t posted in a long long time. I’m just tired of the waiting, almost 90 days since the season was over for us and the 3 best pitchers on the market are signed(Lowe almost to make 4 Randy Johnson to make it 5)I think if the Braves wait long enough they might can get damon Moss or Maybe Charlie Leybrant can still pitch. He was always good for 12 wins……

By Jerry

December 31, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this

KJ dropping the pop up this past year.

By Mr J

December 31, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this

Threadkiller,

It would have to be “bombs away at the Ted” just to make up for the runs that outfield lineup would let in. Horrific defense. Really.

By Luv 2 hate me

December 31, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this

The Braves are tired of making the first offer and getting ripped in the end by other teams. This time they will sit back wait for teams to make their offers then they can have the last say. If Atlanta makes an offer and Lowe turns it down then it’s not about the money. It then becomes a fact that players don’t want to play for Braves like in 90’s. Boy those were the good ole days.

By ADC

December 31, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this

Threadkiller, if I weren’t a Braves fan I’d love that idea. To think of Giambi, Dunn, and Manny all playing “defense” would be tremendous. It would completely redefine Bill Simmons’ unintentional comedy scale.

But there’s no way Dunn hits cleanup over Manny. And McCann should bat fifth, he’s better than Dunn and Giambi.

By Herman

December 31, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this

maybe frank wren will post on the blog all of his ideas for trades to see what we think?

did I make a funny? i can catch on pretty quick to braves baseball blogging. garden blogs are dull compared to this one but sometimes an ornamental flower gardener jumps all over a vegetable gardener (we call them vg’s) so it can be pretty exciting too but not quite as hand wringing if you know what I mean. : )))

By Random

December 31, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

santa3247 has dropped the following pearls of wisdom re Kawakami on “the Blog of the Chick of the Chop”:

“Hi, I’m Seong-Ho,Yoon living in Jinhae City southkorea now.”

…

“Kawakami Kenshin? he is Ace of Junichi Dragons Japan, and over the Okajima Hideki of Boston I think. But too much weight training must make him weak player just like Jeff Franceour&Brandon Jones.”

“Do you remember last year’s news about them “They appeared in front of fans with body twice size of before through weight training” ^:^”

“Appropriate weight training is important and training coach can’t know the exact amount, only the player self can know well.”

“May the force of Messiah be with you”

Lew: “Do I feel a fluctuation in your BABIP on the horizon?”

‘At’s right, big ‘un, you gots to hit ‘em where they ain’t — I know that now.

Herman: “back to the braves now. Random, are you serious? you must be a newbie to baseball like me but so you know, Babe Ruth died many years ago. He was great and he was called “the babe”!!!”

Welcome aboard, kid — good to hear you’ve heard of Babe Ruth.

But I’ll bet you (and a few others here) didn’t know that the Babe pulled the same kinds of stunts back in 1918 and 1919 that Manny Ramirez pulled last year, and for similar reasons — to get a better contract (more $$$ and more years). The Babe faked injury to avoid pitching, sat out ball games in protest, refused to play sometimes, left the team for days at a time and threatened to sit out the 1920 season. (He also punched his manager and an umpire in two separate incidents.) His salary demands and on- and off-the-field misbehavior were primary motives in the Red Sox selling him to the Yankees.

Sound familiar? Sound like any other ex-Sox we might know or have heard of?

Shaun: “[Manny] adds nothing … on the basepaths”

Bite your tongue, OPS-Boy — he adds a base-runner, don’t he?

By Threadkiller

December 31, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

I know or deffense would suck! But who cares when we score 10-12 runs a game!

By Random

December 31, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

AustinBraves: “I think at this point I would rather trade for a BIG BAT or two (Maybe Dye).”

Holy Cats, AB!!!

Dye’s got TWO BIG bats?!?!?

By brian

December 31, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this

DOB speaks and the denizens return. Thanks DOB and enjoy your vacation.

Lets not forget the revolving right field prior to Francoeur - Sheffield then JD Drew, or the magical reclaimation projects in the starting rotation like Jaret Wright.

By beachcomber

December 31, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

DOB - Thanks for the new blog - just back from high altitude myself - the Smokies rather than the Rockies.

In the DOB era, Chipper’s batting crown was special - particularly after a heart breaking near miss last year.

Your blog also made me think of two things - a special book I received for Christmas - Feinstein’s Living on the Black. With a few exceptions (wasting a couple pages on hacks like O’Reilly and Obermann and confusing Birdie Tebbits and Lew Burdette - how do you do that?) it is an exceptional book dealing with the ‘07 seasons of Tom Glavine and Mike Mussina. Recommend it for every baseball fan.

Your pancake reference made me want to give an RIP for the legendary Robby’s here on Florida’s west coast. Unmatched pancakes and a special memory - my kids only up close and personal with Murph when he was with the Phils.

Enjoy a well deserved vacation.

By mets fan in atlanta

December 31, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this

Haha, i’ve been lurking quietly-i’ve been coming on here most days cause this is the best way for me to keep up with the rumor mill, cause i’m not going to look at all the websites myself.

Saying that, it is wishful thinking that the Braves are “quietly” working on some “big” deals, and that’s why yall haven’t heard anything. When DOB says Frank Wren is on vacation, i think he means it. They know the offseason has a been a bust and i think he truly has went somewhere to get away from it all.

Have you heard any other team publicly mention that their GM is on vacation right now? You think Minaya has been taking it easy on the slopes somewhere? Get real Braves fans, yall will be lucky to end up with any free agent who is looking for a multi-year contract. I think what is more likely is that the Braves will wait until the end of January/early February and sign several players to one-year contracts (3-5 million apiece) that got forgotten by everyone else. May even find a hidden gem in there. But a Manny, Lowe, or Dunn????? Keep dreamin.

By BravesFanInRockies

December 31, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this

It’s official, folks. Fuentes is now an Angel.

So those half-baked schemes a few of us dreamed up to sign Fuentes and then trade Gonzo for an OF bopper are done.

By Whatever

December 31, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this

If you can’t take a leak in your own backyard, you’re living too close to town.

By BravesFanInRockies

December 31, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this

Also, not to end 2008 on a total downer, but the Cubs just traded Mark DeRosa to Cleveland for a AAA closer and two guys who haven’t pitched above A ball.

Sure, Frank, we know you could use some time with your family, but help us out here!

By Whatever

December 31, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this

How about this wild idea? Giambi at 1b, Dunn in Rf, Manny in Lf Frenchy in Cf, Kotchman Bench for 1 year

That’s like tryin’ to fish a wet noodle up a bobcat’s arse.

By Mark

December 31, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

Please get the Braves new ownership that loves them and wants to win Please…

By Herman

December 31, 2008 5:41 PM | Link to this

Random no way!!!! I always thought “the babe” was maybe a beer drinker and hot dog eater but did not know any of that other information. did you see that on tv or a book??? do you believe any of it? no way!!!!!!!

bet you didn’t but i did know that “the babe” did like to grow veggies in his back yard garden - mostly turnips, blueberries, carrots and cabbage. I like blueberries but not turnips or cabbage.

By woogidy

December 31, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this

Astros Braves 2005 game 5, 18 innings def most memorable moment. It was a bad one.

By ncscoots

December 31, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this

Jerald, mea culpa, good buddy, re the “newbie” tag. I just made an assumption based on the post’s content. My mistake.

I will say this…I had pretty much the same reaction when I first came here (“What’s all this other stuff?”), but that lasted about a day and a half. The eclectic content posted in those days was a joy, and that has been the reason I’ve kept coming back. There’s a much higher percentage of baseball-related stuff these days as opposed to then, so that at least should make you happier, LOL.

As to the loss of knowledgeable posters due to content, baseball or otherwise, well, that may be true. Or not. Guess it all goes to perspective and your definition of “knowledgeable”.

By Braves Fan in PA

December 31, 2008 5:52 PM | Link to this

Most memorable Braves moment goes back a while… Some one can look it up I don’t remember exact dates but it was around the 4th of July against the Mets I believe in Atlanta. Game tied extra innings out of position players and Rick Camp left in to hit for himself (I believe his avg was in the .000 range +/- a little :) ). He hits a home run to tie the game or give braves the lead. I think they end up losing it later though. Then as promised at about 4am they set off fireworks.

By Murphy

December 31, 2008 6:04 PM | Link to this

For me it was in 2004 when Charles Thomas came out of nowhere to provide a spark. He was out of Western Carolina which is where I went to school. Not many of those guys make it to the big leagues, so I thought that was cool.

By Frank Wren

December 31, 2008 6:14 PM | Link to this

As if my off season hasn’t been going bad enough - some old jerk on a snowboard, trying to relive his youth, ran over my kids nanny and broke her leg. Now I’m stuck watching my kids rather than making some very important phone calls.

I hope that guy realizes he single handidly cost us the ace pitcher I was on the verge of acquiring!

By BravesFanInRockies

December 31, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this

Buster Olney’s now hearing that guys like Giambi and Abreu may have to settle for one-year deals.

Giambi’s a DH now, period. And I’d stay away from him even if he could play a little D because of the whole ‘roids mess.

But Abreu, for one year (heck, even two) at a reasonable salary would be a very nice addition as a LF.

My fear is, he’ll sign a relatively cheap deal with someone else and the Braves won’t find anyone better to play left. It’s been that kind of offseason.

By JB

December 31, 2008 7:12 PM | Link to this

Frank Wren impersonator you really need help with your imagination or just put down the booze. DWI…Drunk Writer Imbicile

By Random

December 31, 2008 7:12 PM | Link to this

mets fan in atlanta — who cares what you say?

Herman — Eff off, you twit.

By David O'Brien

December 31, 2008 7:19 PM | Link to this

Eware: Copper was fantastic, though there were some lines today, unlike when you were here last week.

Every place up here has lines right now, but it wasn’t bad today, considering the perfect conditions (sunny, 28 degrees, almost no wind). I had Copper and A-Basin people tell me it’s busiest they’ve been all year, the period between Christmas and New Year’s.

More people are arriving in droves, too. Just ran into a van full of Alabama folks (they drove up; van had Alabama plates) as we were turning in our snowboards and they were renting theirs. Dude had a ‘Bama hat on, liked it when I told him “Roll Tide.”

Made it through four days of ‘boarding with no injuries, no wrist problems, no nothing. So we’ll be back blogging up a storm soon enough. And yes, we’ll make sure to provide even more music and food discussion for those of you perturbed by that (I love it, the silly indignation some express over something they have no control of).

OK, going to eat a big ol’ burger at Moosejaw bar/restaurant here in Frisco now while we watch the second half of the KU-Minnesota game on NFL Network.

Later.

By BravoMan

December 31, 2008 7:23 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies, I heard that rumor today also but I might not sure how interested in giving a playing a one year deal right now. Im thinking a two three year deal would fit nice for an outfielder considering we’ll be a much better team next year with the return of Huddy and the possible debut of Hanson. I notised a lot of you are big on the possibility of Dunn or Abreu, but I think that’s just too many lefties in our lineup. I think we should consider Burrell for 2 or 3 years. But I wouldn’t be surprised if we didn’t sign any other FAs other than Smoltz/Glavine. Seems to me like Wren would perfer to trade than pick from what’s left of the FAs. But like i have no idea cuz he’s been so secretive. mets fan in atlanta, I don’t know what’s going on in your head other than you’re a stubborn mets fan that’s upset that your team team chocked 2 years in a row. And i know what you’r gonna say “your team hasn’t done any better”, but guess what 14 straight titles, 5 pennants, and a world series championship mean anything to you? Why don’t you just worry bout your New York Muts and not Frank Wren and the Braves.

By Frank Wren

December 31, 2008 7:23 PM | Link to this

JB

Imbicile ??

Perhaps you meant Imbecile? I believe it’s your round. Cheers.

By uga-brave

December 31, 2008 7:26 PM | Link to this

for the few on here whining about the content of the blog, dont read it.

pretty sure this thing will survive without you.

one thing i am sure of, this blog is great because of DOB.

he interacts with many of us, answers questions, and reads pretty much every post.

as for smilin frank. time to think outside the box.

offfering equivalent money to A list free agents has not worked.

heck i dont blame furcal, or burnett. if the braves really wanted either of them they would of upped the ante.

i said in september, that you would hear these words in march, “not fiscally responsible,” “not in the best interest of the franchise,” “we made every attempt to improve ourselves,” and finally, “we really like our core, we think we can compete with our young nucleus.”

wren might need a class in public relations. if you are gonna say, “full speed ahead,” in the media you better better deliver.

there is still time, but the natives grow impatient.

By Random

December 31, 2008 7:42 PM | Link to this

BravoMan: “I heard that rumor today also but I might not sure how interested in giving a playing a one year deal right now.”

???????

By Gut

December 31, 2008 7:48 PM | Link to this

While we may be sour on Furcal at this time, what about his unassisted triple play? I believe that was the summer of ‘03. I know that play hinges on incredible luck but it was still pretty cool to watch live.

By BravesFanInRockies

December 31, 2008 7:52 PM | Link to this

Random,

And I thought I was cranky today.

By Joe

December 31, 2008 7:53 PM | Link to this

Easily forgotten is a dominant pitching performance at the Ted by none other than Mike Hampton (yes… THAT Mike Hampton) in what I believe was one of his last pitching appearances before what became a 2 year vacation. Not only did he pitch a complete game shutout, but he also faced the minimum batters possible (27) and hit a home run to boot in the same game. I know everyone remember the nightmare that was Mike Hampton here, but just a reminder that it wasn’t ALL bad times with him…. Happy New Year everyone!

By Yars

December 31, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this

I see us going to spring training with no major additions. Perhaps Wren will take that approach. Waiting to see what players such as Schafer, Hanson, Diaz, & even Frenchy bring to the table the first couple weeks of games. Regarding that KJ to the Angels rumor, yeah I read that online too. I hope that rumor has zero substance. now playing: fire woman by the cult.

By BravoMan

December 31, 2008 7:58 PM | Link to this

Random, That was refering to BravesFanInRockies rumor bout the fact that Abreu and Giambi may have to settle for one year deals and i dont think the Braves are too interested in giving a one year offer to major players like that. 2 years at the least. The second part of my comment was referring to the mets fan in atlanta’s ignorant comments. O and I just saw that the Orioles made their final offer to Kawakami if anyone was wondering bout that.

By Dent

December 31, 2008 8:05 PM | Link to this

I dont think that chasing just any remaining free agent is the way to go. I think the Braves will go after value type targets. Im thinking like an Austin Kearns could be a guy we could get who has upside and is still young enough. As far as pitching, I would not go after Lowe. I would take a flyer on Sheets 1yr w option or Oliver Perez. The thing on Perez is we may be able to get him for a three year contract. He is still young. I know he is not the popular choice but a few years ago I would have traded for him.

The thing that most of us have to remember is that Wren cant afford to be emotional about getting a free agent. Only we get to do that.

Happy New Year to all!

By JasonInFL (Formerly ME)

December 31, 2008 8:11 PM | Link to this

I hope FW remembers to come off of vacation!!

By Random

December 31, 2008 8:46 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies: “And I thought I was cranky today.”

Not so’s we could tell.

:->

BravoMan — Oh, okay.

By MEB

December 31, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this

I’m surprised no one has mentioned the chopping bovine now reigning high above the left field stands. There may be more embarrassing displays in a stadium somewhere but I don’t think so. At least my little four year old grandaughter thinks it’s pretty cool or weird… whatever!

Memorable moments from last years mess started with the home opener with the Pirates. After forcing extra innings with a miracle five-run ninth, the Braves fell to the Pirates in 12 innings. Tom Glavine returned in an Atlanta uniform for the first time in six years. My son and I unfortunately left in the top of the ninth (it was cold) and listened on the way back to the hotel. I’m sure if we had won that game the season would have been a huge success.

GO BRAVES!!!

By JB

December 31, 2008 9:15 PM | Link to this

Hey Impostor Frank the nut houses are filled with great spellers. Ease off the Meds.

By nolie

December 31, 2008 9:37 PM | Link to this

Hey Impostor Frank the nut houses are filled with great spellers. Ease off the Meds. JB

hmmm..so as long as you can’t spell, you’re not crazy ? Kewl !

By Wayn-o

December 31, 2008 11:53 PM | Link to this

Since there is no more Ace pitchers to pick up (unless Peavy falls from purgatory) Why not go after Manny? Short term 2 year deal? We don’t need long term with a stacked outfield in the minors, we have the $$ & need a power bat, plus the protection he would give Chipper!

Why not?

By Don!

January 1, 2009 12:43 AM | Link to this

DOB — enjoy the vacation. I don’t think you’re missing much.

With that having been said, do you think the Cubs deal today was a precursor to a Peavy deal? I think it was.

Later,

Don!

By GTgirl

January 1, 2009 12:45 AM | Link to this

Maybe because Manny doesn’t want a short term contract and he’s not exactly been a club house favorite with previous teams… But with that said, I would love to have a hitter like him in the middle of the order next year.

By uga-brave

January 1, 2009 3:01 AM | Link to this

GTgirl,

the jackets just got killed by a bunch of ORKIN people wearing purple and gold.

so the jackets want rings for beating georgia once every eight years.

fine by me, paul johnson is a fine man, but i heard a couple of his radio interviews, THE DUDE IS KIND OF FULL OF HIMSELF ALL OF A SUDDEN.

note to paul johnson, you played a WILLIE MARTINEZ coached defense.

willie does not qualify, NOTE TO PAUL JOHNSON,

georgia jacked up 40, LSU jacked up 40.

congrats to the nerd herd for beating the dawgs this year.

you absolutely exposed our weakness. WILLIE MARTINEZ.

By Terry Mcguirk

January 1, 2009 3:08 AM | Link to this

ugabrave, do you think DOB has access to a mini fridge up there on the slopes?

By Brian Dennehy

January 1, 2009 3:09 AM | Link to this

…anything you’d like to keep cool.

By uga-brave

January 1, 2009 3:58 AM | Link to this

no accountability,

in the end TERRY is comfortable with what happens.

he has no owner to answer for.

liberty does not care, mcjerk likes his job he will not fire anyone.

we need a owner, one that cares.

one that wonders why we cant sign a free agent.

smilin frank said two starters and a corner outfielder, right?

guess what frank, at this point you have failed.

40 million to spend, right frank.

dunn and sheets would not hurt.

dunn has hit 40 a year for the last three years and sheets is worth the gamble.

either do something, or quit wizzing in our ears and tell us it is raining.

By Terry Mcguirk

January 1, 2009 4:18 AM | Link to this

ugabrave, we like our young core.

By Doin' Good

January 1, 2009 4:29 AM | Link to this

Ignore UGA Terry, he’d just a sour old drunk who pops up most every night to whine and rant, and leave a love note for Dave or Braveheart once in awhile. We know that you really care and that you and John and Frank and Bobby are doin’ your level best.

By TrippyHippie

January 1, 2009 4:36 AM | Link to this

My favorite moments of the last few years?

2006: Watching Dumb-Chuck win 12 games and then go install storm windows all off-season. Old-school to the extreme—too bad it screwed up his shoulder.

2007: Waiting for Hallmark channel to announce the premiere of “Just Keep Pitching—the Buddy Carlyle Story” as the quintessential story of reclamation and redemption unfolded before our very eyes.

2008: Watching Jair Jurrjens pitch his heart out while the rest of the team went up in flames around him. That kid’s a gamer.

By Tomas

January 1, 2009 4:53 AM | Link to this

Hey everybody HAPPY NEW YEAR. I hope you all enjoy a fantastic year, and have fun.

By Wayne in Utah

January 1, 2009 5:48 AM | Link to this

Happy New Year Braves fans.

A few thoughts. Why would the Cubbies trade DeRo if not to go after Peavy? I haven’t figured that one out yet.

And why sign Miles if they are pursuing Brian Roberts.

I would like to see the Braves make a 3 year, 45 Million dollar offer to Lowe. Gotta overpay or be left out in the rain. I expect him to want to go to the NE though.

Either make a play for Brian Roberts, or sign Abreu for a couple of years and for about 20 million. If the O’s want to deal Roberts, make them an offer, and maybe move KJ to left and skip Abreu.

I sense some bargains on the horizon.

Last thought. If Scott Boras is so smart, why would he let Tex sign with the Yankees. That just took out your biggest pawn to up the ante for Manny?? Puzzling.

I think sometimes Scott over plays his hand. (couldn’t happen to a nicer guy.)

I would love to see the Dodgers hold to the 2 year offer for Manny. Also, wouldn’t it be funny for Andruw to end up in NY w/ the Muts! That would guarantee us a better shot at second place.

Nite (or mornin’) folks! Check back in later……

Glad to hear you are having a great time Dave!

By uga-brave

January 1, 2009 5:50 AM | Link to this

love note for DOB and BRAVEHEART, you are right.

bravey and the crusading man have forgot more about baseball than i will ever remember.

scoots is a wordsmith, so add him to the equation.

uga, predicted the fall of bear stearns and leaman brothers a year and a half ago.

if you dont believe me ask flange1.

so if you question my credibility, or my knowledge, scrool up a little when i called the derosa trade and the marquis trade.

now as far as a good drink, i have a basement full of about close to 500 bottles of wine .

for all you dawg fans i went to sonoma last year and met TERRY HOAGE.

HE has a nice little winery out there, and has a vintage, called the BLOCK, and THE PICK.

IF you dont get it you ain’t GEOERGIA.

flange knows the the old oddysey in athens.

R.E.M. rockville, thunder road by the boss, and some old cheesy great rock n roll.

flange i also knew kim stephens, who is now ed tolley’s lead counsel in athens.

goldberg was there, so was a decent runningback named tim worley.

either way intel, mot , oracle, cisco, and texas intstruments, add microsoft are trading at all time low multipes.

seriously this as cheap as it might get.

no debt or exposure to the toxic debt.

cash rich companies. lean into the wind if you have a pair.

wealth changing times. but then again?

By JasonInFL (Formerly ME)

January 1, 2009 7:33 AM | Link to this

Whither FW and Bravo news?

By Max 14

January 1, 2009 8:35 AM | Link to this

A Braves memory I have is from 1998. The Braves won 106 games that year. They faced the Padres in the NLCS. The Padres won the first three games of the series, and the Braves were on the verge of being swept in game 4 trailing in the 8 or 9th inning. Ozzie Guillen ties it up off a Klesko single, and Galarraga delivers a grand slam to blow it open. Braves also won game 5, but lost the series. Anyway, Galarraga kept it alive and gave them a chance.

By mantuan

January 1, 2009 9:33 AM | Link to this

Dave:

If it isn’t too late, you might try the Butterhorn there in Frisco for Breakfast. Excellent place to eat.

My favorite place to ski in CO that I can reach “easily” (a relative term) is Vail but Breck is a also quite good.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 1, 2009 10:50 AM | Link to this

Wayne in Utah According to ESPN, the trades the Cubs made were to gain enough flexibility to sign Milton Bradley. Of course, I ain’t buying it. I still think in a few days that Peavy will be sent packing.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 1, 2009 10:56 AM | Link to this

uga-brave You are wrong that Tech exposed our weakness with Willie Martinez. That was exposed very early in the season. It would be so great to play defense like the dawgs used to play defense.

By SoWeGa Fanatic

January 1, 2009 11:01 AM | Link to this

The Babe faked injury to avoid pitching, sat out ball games in protest, refused to play sometimes, left the team for days at a time and threatened to sit out the 1920 season. (He also punched his manager and an umpire in two separate incidents.) His salary demands and on- and off-the-field misbehavior were primary motives in the Red Sox selling him to the Yankees.

However, you failed to mention the Sox were strapped for cash at the time, plus that was a far,far different era.

By SoWeGa Fanatic

January 1, 2009 11:37 AM | Link to this

*Last thought. If Scott Boras is so smart, why would he let Tex sign with the Yankees. *

Perhaps 5% of $180 million had something to with it. $9 million to say, “OK, sign”. I’d take that.

By Random

January 1, 2009 12:12 PM | Link to this

JEB: “DAP I didn’t see where anyone answered your question about a bad back and a bus ride. I have dealt with back issues so I’ll take the liberty to help.”

Can you hook me up with a copy of the Dec 19, 1956 PLAYBOY?

By brian

January 1, 2009 12:19 PM | Link to this

Salty - Andruw had all the incentives to get into shape and turn things around a few years ago in his walk year. Instead he stayed out of shape and refused to listen to his coaches or make adjustments. Why would he change now?

By Samuel Alex

January 1, 2009 12:21 PM | Link to this

Here i my take…The Braves should sign Manny being Manny at $28Million per year for 2 years. That is not hard to swallow. Been a Braves fans since 1955 and I seen lots of players come and go. Plus they should sogn Lowe for 3 years for $50 Million. Well what do you think. Let’s not talk about past performances….it’s the present you got to think about.

By Random

January 1, 2009 12:21 PM | Link to this

*SoWeGa Fanatic: *”However, you failed to mention the Sox were strapped for cash at the time, plus that was a far,far different era.”

I don’t deny it, but that was not my point.

I was just saying that ManRam has done nothing different than the Babe ever did.

“Different era” — what’s your point? That the Babe’s behavior was more acceptable then than Manny’s is now? Or less?

I would think less.

By Smoky Joe Wood

January 1, 2009 12:35 PM | Link to this

There’s just a tiny handful of decent free-agent starters left out there: Lowe, O. Perez, Sheets, and R. Wolf. Despite this fact, the petulant duo of Wren/Schuerholtz have chosen to take one of those, Wolf, off the table. He’s not an ace, but he’s solid, affordable, and a lefty, and would make our team better. You don’t cut off your nose to spite your face. Furcal was not personal; it was business. Sleazy business, but still business. Bonehead move by the “braintrust”.

DOB has said that Wren is more likely to trade for a LF. That makes no sense to me, with solid options out there like Abreu, Dunn, and (marginally) Derek Anderson who won’t cost you any pieces. The Braves just don’t have the depth to trade right now, and they can’t afford to make any more prospects-for-aging-player deals a la the Vazquez deal, because Schuerholtz made far too many of those kind of deals in his last desperate years. For example, even Prado for Swisher robs us of our best backup at multiple positions, with no middle infielders in the system who are ready.

With money to spend and no great surpluses, we need to fix our holes through free agency—not trades. And the free agent pool gets shallower every day. Meanwhile, Wren fiddles while Atlanta burns.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 1, 2009 1:04 PM | Link to this

Random In reference to your claims that Babe Ruth refused to pitch and so on and so forth, I find that stuff so hard to believe. I think I’ve read every book about the Babe since my childhood, and I’m 52. But, this is the age of the Internet and I’ll delve into it to see what I can find out. The Babe was a hard drinking, hard partying, fighting self-absorbed piece of sheot. But to my knowledge, he never refused to play and never quit. And the only reason given for him being sold to the Yankees for $125,000 was because owner Harry Frazee of the Red Sox needed the money

By cj

January 1, 2009 1:09 PM | Link to this

smokey joe wood~ You have 3 out of 4 correct, Randy Wolf is no option, he’s below average when he’s healthy so no real upside there, at least Sheets has a huge upside if he’s healthy which is probably not realistic. If they are going to sign a free agent pitcher instead of trading for one, I myself hope to God it’s Lowe.

By Anders

January 1, 2009 1:09 PM | Link to this

Jerald

And the only reason given for him being sold to the Yankees for $125,000 was because owner Harry Frazee of the Red Sox needed the money

This is correct. He needed the money to fund a play he was backing. I can’t remember the name of the play bit it was something, something Nannette I believe.

By Steve from OH

January 1, 2009 1:14 PM | Link to this

Anders—it was No, no, Nanette, I believe.

Smoky Joe: Wolf offers no real upside. He’s not what we need.

By JKP

January 1, 2009 1:24 PM | Link to this

I’m actually glad the Braves have not over-spent this off season. Sure Burnett won 18 games, but a 4.07 ERA is not worth almost $16 mil/year for 4 years. Wren, and the Atlanta fans need to embrace the fact that the Braves are in a rebuilding phase. The playoffs are possible next year, but not probable. Save the money…develop the young talent. Let’s talk pennant again in 2 years or so.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 1, 2009 1:24 PM | Link to this

All I could find out about Babe Ruth was that he’d been suspended a few times by Commissioner Landis for various things. I also found out that he was heartbroken when he found out that he was sold to the Yankees. Doesn’t exactly sound like a man who would refuse to pitch for his team.

By Bill

January 1, 2009 1:31 PM | Link to this

Wren fiddles while Atlanta Burns. Smokey Joe Wood…Agree 100%.

By Anders

January 1, 2009 1:33 PM | Link to this

For the Braves to get Lowe they need to be prepared to over pay. He wants to pitch for a contender. As ironic as this sounds, what the Braves have in their favor with Lowe is that Boras is his agent. Any other agent might pass on more $’s to put his pitcher on a better team.

The Mets have offered 3 years at $36 mil with a vesting 4th, so figure full value at $48 - 50 mil. The Braves will have to gaurantee a 4th year with a full contract value at about $52 - 55 mil. I don’t think the Mets will go there. That should get it done for the Braves. I’ve heard the Phils are sniffing around too but I have no idea if that’s real and if so, what level of interest they have. It doesn’t seem serious to me - but who knows? After all, who saw the Yanks coming out of no where for Tex?

By Jerald Holcombe

January 1, 2009 1:35 PM | Link to this

According to Wikipedia, when Ruth was with the Red Sox, he jumped the team several times and held out prior to the 1919 season for a $20,000 increase in pay. So, there looks to be a measure of truth in what Random stated. I was amazed to find out also that Frazee had planned to trade the Babe to the White Sox for “Shoeless” Joe Jackson, but the Black Sox Scandal stopped that.

By brent a.

January 1, 2009 1:39 PM | Link to this

looks like the MLB network is available on Directv.

I hope it provides something useful.

There’s nothing on TV anymore. :)

By Anders

January 1, 2009 1:54 PM | Link to this

Jerald

Please don’t tell me Boras’ grandpappy was The Babe’s agent!

By rip van wren

January 1, 2009 2:03 PM | Link to this

ive been asleep for so long, what year is this?

do they still play baseball in america??

is there still an america

hey at least we signed norton

lets trade for halladay and eat guillens overflated contract , what will we have to give them ? the gwinnet braves

By Anders

January 1, 2009 2:08 PM | Link to this

Jerald

I was amazed to find out also that Frazee had planned to trade the Babe to the White Sox for “Shoeless” Joe Jackson, but the Black Sox Scandal stopped that.

Good stuff. I’ve never heard this before. So let’s review. It’s widely believed that Babe Ruth put baseball on the map after he went to the Yanks and hit all those home runs into his customized short porch - correct? Therefore, had the White Sox trade for The Babe gone through who knows if baseball ever reaches the popularity it did back then and still holds today?

So in the end the Black Sox scandal may have very well been good for baseball. I’d like to run that by acclaimed baseball historians George Will or Peter Gammons for their thoughts.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 1, 2009 2:11 PM | Link to this

I don’t know what it is about Frank Wren. First, he probably volunteers too much info, thus setting himself up for failure. then he offers no info, which lends to the aura of doing nothing at all. It would be nice if he would at least tell us that he’s working on a deal or two.

By Blog Ref

January 1, 2009 2:22 PM | Link to this

But frankly, there isn’t enough going on in baseball to fill a blog right now. I’m much more annoyed by people who post questions or scenarios that have been discussed ad nauseum than people who post their favorite local BBQ joint.

99% of the baseball topics being discussed now fall into that “ad nauseum” category. Frankly there isn’t anything new, except the AJ talk(an ok idea for only $2million).Jerald was right, many of the better bloggers are staying away, not because of the non baseball stuff(that’s what makes this a great blog), but because they are smart and recognize there isn’t much to say.I mean talking about Manny, or Dunn, and now rehasing Peavy? Ad Nauseum.

Only the idiots who like to drive of the comment count are posting over and over again. So vain they’re making DOB post a make shift blog on his vacation! Horrible People. Leave that man alone and be stingy with your comments. Of course it’s always fun to see just how big a jerk Lew is. If there is a more smarmy, thuggish person on the blog he hasn’t yet posted.Who will be the next blogger who has to smack down Lew?

Oh for something fresh, some topics not beat to death. Please, please, please, no more 1. Braves are doomed; 2. Frank Wren is no good; 3. Let’s play the kids(ain’t we doin that allready); 4.Adam Dunn; 5. Jake Peavy; 6.Manny(for the luv of pete, it ain’t happenin); 7. My EQa is better than your OPS sabermertic-staty b.s.;8. Andrew Jones is no good; 9. Jeff Francouer is no good; and 10..ANY TOPIC COVERED ALREADY IN 10 CONSECUTIVE BLOGS OR MORE.

I wish some of the better bloggers would say more, but then y’all are smart enough to know when there’s something worth sayin and when there ain’t. So until things pick up i guess we have to put up with the blabbermouths and newbies. Oh and a-hole Lew of course. Sigh

By Blog Ref

January 1, 2009 2:25 PM | Link to this

The Mets have offered 3 years at $36 mil with a vesting 4th, so figure full value at $48 - 50 mil. The Braves will have to gaurantee a 4th year with a full contract value at about $52 - 55 mil. I don’t think the Mets will go there

FAIL (see Furcal, Raphael)

By J

January 1, 2009 2:36 PM | Link to this

anders

Boras is tex agent and i am pretty sure he took less money to sign with them over the nats - not always with boras is it the highest offer. i think the braves would have to offer something like 4/60 if they want to get Lowe - that would still leave enough money to get a LF And bring smoltz back. - if Wren has no Trades close to being worked out that noone has heard about then i think it would make no sense for them not to overpay a little to get Lowe. If they were willing to give Burnette 18MM a yr who is a injury risk - why not throw something like 4/64 if they have too to get Lowe?

By LuisG

January 1, 2009 2:45 PM | Link to this

Some individual moments I can recall:

Greg Maddux reaching 15 wins for the 16th straight year in ‘03 (passing Cy Young); Chipper hitting for extra-bases in 14 consecutive games in ‘06, his 2000th hit at Cleveland in ‘07; Yunel’s debut at Wrigley in ‘07.

By Anders

January 1, 2009 2:50 PM | Link to this

Blog Ref

I’m throwing my review flag into the bloggisphere. I’d like you to review my whole 1:33 post before making a ruling. Please re-read this line:

As ironic as this sounds, what the Braves have in their favor with Lowe is that Boras is his agent. Any other agent might pass on more $’s to put his pitcher on a better team.

Therein lies the difference between the “Furcal, Raphael” case and the “Lowe, Derek” case.

Now, I’m not saying it’s a slam dunk that Lowe takes the money and goes to the Braves, just that based on his agents history it’s possible.

If he passes on the money too then I believe the Braves need to completely forget about contending for two to three years. Unload the likes of Chipper for youth, forget signing Smoltz, Glavine et al and move on. If you’ve followed my blogs since October I’ve been leaning this way all along. The glory days of the Braves are gone and the market is reflecting this.

By LivininAL

January 1, 2009 3:08 PM | Link to this

The Braves off season efforts appear colder than the Colorado snow. Maybe there will be a Spring thaw and things will start to happen. Now appears hibernation time.

By JasonInFL (Formerly ME)

January 1, 2009 3:24 PM | Link to this

The glory days of the Braves are gone and the market is reflecting this.Anders

And the glory days of the Mets have yet to come…ever.

By Anders

January 1, 2009 3:39 PM | Link to this

Jason

And the glory days of the Mets have yet to come…ever

Not sure about the “ever” part, but I don’t think the Mets will ever win 14 titles in a row. The Braves certainly deserve full respect for that but that doesn’t mean anything in today’s market which i believe is what we’re discussing. At least most of us.

By Moby Grape

January 1, 2009 3:44 PM | Link to this

Save the money…develop the young talent. Let’s talk pennant again in 2 years or so. JKP

what do all you folks think they are gonna do with all this money they save? Put it toward next season? I bet that ain’t gonna happen. The team is already too young with almost no veteran leadership and just about no long-term expensive contracts. We need to sign a few veterans though they don’t need to be stars. Frank’s original plan still makes sense, another steady starting pitcher and an outfielder with some pop even if only a platoon guy to swap with Diaz. Let’s do it!

By Random

January 1, 2009 3:46 PM | Link to this

Blog Ref: “Oh for something fresh, some topics not beat to death.”

I, too (like Anders), would like to request a instant replay review of your Ad Nauseam call.

I always (okay — usually; often? sometimes?) try to bring some value-added material, whether it’s new info or a fresh perspective. (In addition, of course, to lame jokes and merciless ridicule of YAIs. And gratuitous DOB-bashing. (JK, DOB!).)

Please check out my comments above on: Willie Harris having been judged to be the Number One 2008 free agent pick-up; Kawakami perhaps having bulked up too much, a la Francoeur last year (courtesy of santa3247); and the eerily fits-like-a-glove comparison between the on- and off-field behavior of the Babe and ManRam, both dumped by the Red Sox for many common reasons.

But forget about me — I want to hear some more about “just how big a jerk Lew is”. That never gets old.

Thanks in advance.

By Moby Grape

January 1, 2009 3:50 PM | Link to this

It would be nice if he would at least tell us that he’s working on a deal or two. Jerald

no it wouldn’t. Just how would that be any different? It would still be setting up all the children for another disappointment causing me to have to scroll past untold hundreds of whining posts. Stick with the JS formula. Keep quiet until you have a signature on a dotted line.

By Lew

January 1, 2009 4:04 PM | Link to this

Smarmy and thuggish? Who will be the next person to knock me down? Certainly not some mentally challenged @$$whole without the nads to use his real name when posting garbage.

By Doc Holiday

January 1, 2009 4:15 PM | Link to this

OK Braves, it is a new year, get to work and make some signings………..could you please???

By Doc Holiday

January 1, 2009 4:21 PM | Link to this

I checked the braves official site and they put there a preview to the braves lineup for next year. It brings up a question in my mind. They are suggesting Anderson as our regular CF. Where does this comes from? In my mind Blanco should have that starting job until Anderson beats him. Opinions??????

By Random

January 1, 2009 4:33 PM | Link to this

Pepperidge Blogs Remembers

By uga-brave

December 10, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

bosnian baller, mcfann,

the lasik surgery was done to make the portions on McCann’s plate look bigger than they actually are.

Priceless!

…

By uga-brave

January 18, 2008 1:24 AM | Link to this

i know certain current braves, and former braves (blauser, lemke, brad clontz) they all hang out at T,J’S ON holcomb bridge.

to a man they think CHUCK N DUCK is the 4th dumbest brave of all time.

1 brian hunter 2 wes helms 3 john rocker 4 chuck james

Now that he’s gone, do you think Mike Hampton would crack the top five?

chrisklob, Braveheart and I would like to know.

;->

By JB

January 1, 2009 4:37 PM | Link to this

Anderson did just that at the end of the year, beat Blanco out of the job and moved Blanco to left field for most of September. It was fun to watch Anderson play and the Braves win more often once he began playing and hitting leadoff

By Efrim

January 1, 2009 4:43 PM | Link to this

They are suggesting Anderson as our regular CF. Where does this comes from? In my mind Blanco should have that starting job until Anderson beats him. Opinions??????

I’d rather Blanco than Anderson. I’d like one of them to get the job so Jordan Schafer can get some more development time in Triple A. I’m for Tommy Hanson starting in Gwinnett as well. I’d like to see a little more of Morton and Reyes.

By Random

January 1, 2009 4:49 PM | Link to this

“Every day from now to Spring Training, MLB.com/Live will air classic games on Baseball’s Best. Smoltz’s [6 Apr 08] win over Santana and the Mets can be seen Friday at 3 p.m. ET.”

from Braves.com

By Random

January 1, 2009 4:56 PM | Link to this

Doc Holiday: “I checked the braves official site and they put there a preview to the braves lineup for next year. It brings up a question in my mind. They are suggesting Anderson as our regular CF. Where does this comes from? In my mind Blanco should have that starting job until Anderson beats him. Opinions??????”

Mark Bowman is smarter than you?

Nah.

Quien sabe?

By Steve from OH

January 1, 2009 4:56 PM | Link to this

Efrim—I’d like to see Hanson start in AAA as well, although I would like to see Schafer play lights-out in ST and win the CF job outright. But I do agree that we should give Charlie and JoJo another good, long look.

By Steve from OH

January 1, 2009 5:03 PM | Link to this

But let me add that I do think Schafer needs more development time, but I just don’t like our chances with Anderson/Blanco starting a significant amount of time in center.

But I do see that Blanco is hitting for some power in winter ball, so who knows? I agree with you that if I had to “pick my poison,” so to speak, I’d pick Blanco.

By Salty Dawg

January 1, 2009 5:04 PM | Link to this

Doc Holiday

I checked the braves official site and they put there a preview to the braves lineup for next year. It brings up a question in my mind. They are suggesting Anderson as our regular CF. Where does this comes from? In my mind Blanco should have that starting job until Anderson beats him. Opinions??????

I doubt seriously that either of them is going to be handed CF. More likely both will get time in CF during spring training and whichever is more capable at that time will take the field during the season. No way is this one of those “his spot to lose” situations because neither has established themselves yet.

By Frank

January 1, 2009 5:08 PM | Link to this

This memory has nothing to do with the Braves but my best memory was of 2007 when….

the Met’s ended up losing the NL East on the last day of the season and then the Phils (didn’t just get beat in the playoffs) but they got swept. SWEPT!!!!! Swept by the Rocks in the playoffs.

I thought…”Yes, there is a God”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That was a one helluva memory!

By Salty Dawg

January 1, 2009 5:08 PM | Link to this

Moby Grape

no it wouldn’t. Just how would that be any different? It would still be setting up all the children for another disappointment causing me to have to scroll past untold hundreds of whining posts. Stick with the JS formula. Keep quiet until you have a signature on a dotted line.

I couldn’t agree more. With JS you never knew what he was involved with until it was pretty damn close to being a done deal. The biggest problem for Wren this off season is that he publicly announced what he intended to do and then was publicly embarrassed when the deals he was trying to make fell through.

By Efrim

January 1, 2009 5:24 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH

I think Schafer will eventually be our CF in 2009. But I’d just like him to gain back those 2 months he lost because of that suspension and whatever time he lost in winter ball. Losing those at bats hurt his development as well.

Whether it is Anderson or Blanco, doesn’t really matter too much to me, the Braves aren’t going to get much from either in terms of offense. Which makes adding a LF bat that isn’t in a platoon with Matt Diaz that much more important. I really believe that it should be considered just as much as a priority as the starting pitcher we need. I think a lot of people are counting on McCann and Chipper to hit in the middle of our order, which they will, but they’ll both miss 25-30 games because of injury(Chipper) or need for rest(McCann and Chipper). So we need a consistent force in the middle of our order…preferably right handed, but I’ll settle for a lefty like Dunn if need be.

Sorry for the rant, but I worry that the Braves will be concerned about defense in left field, when they really should be looking for middle of the order power.

By Steve from OH

January 1, 2009 5:27 PM | Link to this

A quick search confirms that Blanco is hitting .349/.464/.512 in 172 Dominican Winter League at-bats. Definitely helps his standing.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 5:29 PM | Link to this

Salty Dawg,

Yep. Wren raised expectations by saying exactly what he wanted for 2009 in October. By failing to deliver by the end of the Winter Meetings, he looked like he was in over his head.

You can say it’s a long way ‘til April, but if the opening day LF is Diaz or Blanco and the #3 starter is Campillo, then Wren has at a minimum failed to provide the upgrades he promised.

By Steve from OH

January 1, 2009 5:31 PM | Link to this

I worry that the Braves will be concerned about defense in left field, when they really should be looking for middle of the order power.

Completely agree.

By Anders

January 1, 2009 5:35 PM | Link to this

Efrim

Happy New Year.Did you see the reports on ESPN that the Giants are aggressively pursuing Manny Ramirez? I guess the Giants feel relatively speaking that he’s a step up from the guy they used to have in left. Manny only cheated one team last year while Bonds cheated all of baseball when he played.

By Steve McP

January 1, 2009 5:38 PM | Link to this

Frank Wren’s first job should be to sign Ohman.

We must have the money because of the lack of spend so far. No longer trying to fit his salary around the big money guy, whoever Braves sign to start will not be costing as much as Burnett.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 5:41 PM | Link to this

And because the Braves/MIB/BBQ blog has opened 2009 with waaaay too much baseball, here’s a prediction for you college football fans:

Even though Georgia Tech has just finished its first season under Paul Johnson, the program will start a long and steady decline unless or until he abandons the option and installs a more flexible offense. (Could be a pro-style, could be a spread, could be some combination, doesn’t matter.) Tech’s high water mark may have been the Georgia win.

Why?

Johnson will not be able to recruit top-flight, NFL-caliber athletes to Tech to play offense if they keep running the option.

NFL linemen have to be able to pass-protect, and that means learning to read blitzes during games.

NFL wide receivers have to catch passes. NFL QBs have to be able to not just throw the ball but read coverages.

You don’t get that experience if you throw the ball eight or 10 times a game.

He had a remarkable season this year with Gailey’s guys, who were recruited to play in a pro-style offense. The weirdness of the scheme worked this year because he had superior athletes and the option typically drives opposing defensive coordinators nuts. It’s like winning with trick plays. Works for awhile but people figure it out.

The talent pool will dry up when recruits figure out the only offensive players with any chance to earn a living playing football are the tailbacks.

So my fearless prediction is — Tech will install a more balanced offensive attack within one or two years or Johnson will be gone soon after that.

By Random

January 1, 2009 5:47 PM | Link to this

Ben Nicholson-Smith of MLBTR:

Derek Lowe was “hardly overwhelmed” by the Mets’ three year $36MM offer, Mike Puma of the New York Post heard from a baseball source. Tony Massarotti of the Boston Globe heard from a source of his own that Lowe’s “likely to continue shopping for a more desirable offer.”

It’s uncertain who would make such an offer, since Massarotti writes that the Yankees, Red Sox and Phillies are not currently interested in Lowe.

As a result, the Mets could end up in what Puma calls a “protracted stare down” with Scott Boras and his client.

By Rich W

January 1, 2009 5:50 PM | Link to this

For Left Field ….how about continuing the Furcal to 2B, Johnson to Left by substituting Prado for Furcal? Though Prado is certainly not Furcal, he can hit fairly well and field at least acceptably. If Johnson was a good candidate for LF with Furcal coming, why not now? Of course he’s not the “big bat” we’d all like, but the “big bat” might not be coming. And there is Diaz against certain pitchers too. Thoughts?

By BravoMan

January 1, 2009 5:54 PM | Link to this

Look no one knew about the Vazquez trade until it was a done deal. JS obviously told Wren, or he figured out for himself, that it’s not supposed to be so public. I wouldn’t worry about the whole LF defence conflict. With Francoeur in RF and Anderson/Schafer/Blanco in CF, that’s already a good defencive OF. We can give up some defence for some power. And im tired of anyone on here that thinks that Diaz will be our opening day LF and Campillo will be our #3 starter. We’ve got a month til pitchers and catchers report and half the market’s still out there. It’s starting to pick up as of late but haven’t you notised that alot of other teams aren’t be very active either. With our economy how it is right now they’re trying to get a good bargan. A deal or two is coming shortly. As for Lowe it seems like he’s kind of ticked at the Mets now lol. I don’t see the harm in at least giving him an offer of around 13-15 mil for 3yrs with a 4th year option and go from there. As for our LF problem, I really think it’s going to be a trade for Swisher or someone like Winn(who recently became avalible because of SF’s strong interest in Manny). Neither of them are superstars but I believe a team only needs one superstar and ours just won the batting title…be patient Braves fans…

By AustinBraves

January 1, 2009 5:55 PM | Link to this

Just a thought. How about a trade for Barry Zito I know the Giants want to trade him and I think they are willing to eat alot of his salary. To bring him to Atlanta and pitch with his good friend Hudson may make him the pitcher of old. If we could get him cheap I think its worth the chance. Maybe we give up Morton or JoJO.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 1, 2009 5:56 PM | Link to this

As ironic as this sounds, what the Braves have in their favor with Lowe is that Boras is his agent. Any other agent might pass on more $’s to put his pitcher on a better team.

Are you kidding me? Boras ALWAYS looks for the top dollar. He could care less where the player winds up. Look at the history. And just to stem the tide of bloggers that want the Braves to sign Lowe and my own wishes that they go after Manny, I turn your attention to comments made by Schueholz when Maddux was sent packing. JS made the statement back then that the Braves didn’t like dealing with players represented by Boras because of the way he drives up the prices. Lastly, in reference to who should be the 2009 CF for the Braves. It’s not gonna be either Blanco or Anderson if it can be helped. The Braves need a stick and an excellent defensive centerfielder and unless he just blows his chance, look for Shafer.

By Anders

January 1, 2009 5:58 PM | Link to this

Random

About your 5:47 post. And there’s Wren’s shot. That’s what I was saying earlier today. He waited to long on Burnett imo.The yanks were distracted withh CC, that’s when he should have forced Burnett’s hand. He shouldn’t let it happen again on Lowe. “Overwhelm” him. Apparently that’s what he’sooking for. But give him an immediate deadline. That would be my play. If Boras wants to shop a Braves offer, tell him to pi$$ off. Tell him publicly too to reduce his leverage with others. I know that part sounds self serving but that’s not how I mean it.

By Random

January 1, 2009 5:58 PM | Link to this

Gerry Fraley of the SportingNews.com:

Atlanta: Braves general manager Frank Wren can salvage what has been a frustrating offseason — no shortstop Rafael Furcal, no righthander Jake Peavy, no righthander A.J. Burnett — by adding a corner outfielder with power. Atlanta’s outfield produced only 27 homers last season, fewest for a full season by an outfield since six clubs had 27 or fewer in 1992. That included 19 homers by the Chicago White Sox.

The Braves have also not given up hope of signing free-agent righthander Derek Lowe, though the Mets reportedly offered Lowe a three-year, $36 million deal. If the Braves land Lowe, they will consider themselves lucky for missing out on Burnett.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 1, 2009 6:01 PM | Link to this

Random Lowe also stated that when all is said and done, that he believes tat he will be signing with the Mets. Read that in ESPN rumors.

By Steve from OH

January 1, 2009 6:05 PM | Link to this

Are you kidding me? Boras ALWAYS looks for the top dollar. He could care less where the player winds up…

Well, that is his job, isn’t it? And he does it well. Besides, the PLAYER is the one that must sign the contract, so the PLAYER ultimately decides where he goes. Boras cannot force a player to sign for a team he doesn’t want to.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 6:14 PM | Link to this

AustinBraves,

It doesn’t matter if Zito would think it’s really neato to pitch with his old buddy Hudson.

He has a terrible contract, and he’s signed for five more years. I’m also not sure he’s any better right now than JoJo Reyes.

I’d rather see them sign Randy Wolf, even if his agent is Arn Tellem. You could get Wolf for two or three years, not pay him a lot, and get better production than you would for Zito.

By Steve from OH

January 1, 2009 6:16 PM | Link to this

To follow up on my last post, EVERY agent looks for top dollar. The agent’s job is to get the best offer from every team interested, so that his client may choose which one to take. An agent that can’t get top dollar isn’t a good agent.

By Anders

January 1, 2009 6:19 PM | Link to this

Jerald

Are you kidding me? Boras ALWAYS looks for the top dollar. He could care less where the player winds up

I 100% agree with you. That was my point. By offering more $’s the Braves might be able to get Lowe even though he’s said he wants to pitch for a contender.

JS made the statement back then that the Braves didn’t like dealing with players represented by Boras because of the way he drives up the prices.

This is part of the Braves past that needs to die. They aren’t in the position anymore to eliminate talent just because who they are represented by. Take a look at Boras’ and the Wasserman groups client list’s. Are the Braves really ready to say they will never sign one of those guys? What does that do to the prices you have to pay for the guys that are left?

By Steve from OH

January 1, 2009 6:21 PM | Link to this

BFIR, I’d rather just see them give Reyes the ball every five days than see them sign Wolf (or trade for Zito). Wolf…is just a bad idea. Can’t see why anyone would want him.

On a side note, by signing Lowe, we would make it more likely that the Mets sign one of Perez, Wolf, or Garland, which of course would be great for us, seeing the Mets tie up years and money into bad pitchers like Garland and Wolf.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 6:23 PM | Link to this

Rich W,

The only reason you’d put Prado at 2B and move Johnson to LF is because you can’t find a LF who can hit better than Prado. You’re not improving the offense. You’re moving people around, and in my opinion weakening the offense, when the goal is to upgrade it.

I would actually hope that the Braves think they can do better than Diaz, at least as a platoon partner. There are plenty of free agent OFs out there who can produce more against right handed pitching than Diaz.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 6:28 PM | Link to this

This is part of the Braves past that needs to die. They aren’t in the position anymore to eliminate talent just because who they are represented by.Anders

Agreed, unfortunately. Since TBS isn’t showing 150+ games a year, the Braves don’t have the national exposure and natural following that the Mets, Dodgers, Yanks, Cubs and BoSox have. I think the team lost a lot of bargaining leverage when the TBS connection went away.

They have to start acting more like the mid-market team they are and not expect players will sign with them because of the streak, or Bobby Cox, or whatever.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 6:29 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH,

Yes! We should start a lobbying campaign for the Mets to sign Garland!

By Random

January 1, 2009 6:31 PM | Link to this

Also from Fraley, TSN.com:

[The Fillies] are also trying to give away disappointing righthander Adam Eaton. The Phillies will absorb $8 million of the remaining $9 million guaranteed Eaton and want nothing in return.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 6:38 PM | Link to this

If the Phils would pay about $12 million of the $9 million due to Eaton, you might consider him …

By Salty Dawg

January 1, 2009 6:42 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies

Salty Dawg,

Yep. Wren raised expectations by saying exactly what he wanted for 2009 in October. By failing to deliver by the end of the Winter Meetings, he looked like he was in over his head.

You can say it’s a long way ‘til April, but if the opening day LF is Diaz or Blanco and the #3 starter is Campillo, then Wren has at a minimum failed to provide the upgrades he promised.

You and I agree with regards to Wren being too vocal/public about his intended moves. But I disagree with the rest of your statements. First of all, I don’t think that Diaz (possibly as a platoon) would be the worst thing in the world. Secondly, I think Campillo is going to surprise a lot of they naysayers out there next season. Looking at his history it would have been a miracle for him not to taper off last season. Prior to last season I think the most innings he’d pitched in a season was like 25. Not to mention he wasn’t very far removed from TJ surgery according to something I read here on the blog. Thirdly, I don’t recall Wren ever promising to do anything. I remember him detailing the moves he wanted to make to fill the obvious weaknesses of the team, but I don’t ever remember a promise. To date I think he’s done pretty much all he could to meet his goals but has been unsuccessful. I just don’t think he would be drawing as much heat if he had played it close to the vest, but I also think that anyone with a brain could have identified the holes we needed filled anyway.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 6:59 PM | Link to this

Salty Dawg,

We’re probably not disagreeing about much. When a GM so specifically states his goals, how different is that from making a promise to the fan base? His success or failure can be judged on whether he accomplished those goals.

I also agree that Diaz may be a fine platoon player — and he’s on the roster and affordable — but even in 2007, he was primarily a lefty-masher. They need more from the corner OF spots against RHP.

Campillo remains an unknown. He’s also unlike anyone else in baseball now that Maddux is gone. He did pitch a full load in 2007 between AAA and the majors, not that far removed from TJ surgery.

I’m not sure you can count on him getting away with the stuff he has for 30+ starts and 180+ innings. I’d love to be proved wrong. I’d love it even more if they signed or traded for another proven starter, and let Campy’s contributions be a bonus, rather than something they’re relying on every fifth day.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 7:00 PM | Link to this

In case anyone hasn’t noticed, USC’s pretty good.

By Da' Braves-# 3 Pro Team in Atlanta

January 1, 2009 7:22 PM | Link to this

Stockbridge boy Kyle Davies pitching 5 great innings in Boston for a win in major league debut.

By Efrim

January 1, 2009 7:57 PM | Link to this

Anders

If the Giants are willing to spend the money, than it is a great move for them. They need a run producer in the middle of their order. They have the pitching and the NL West can probably be won by the Dodgers, D-Backs or Giants.

By Moby Grape

January 1, 2009 8:03 PM | Link to this

Which makes adding a LF bat that isn’t in a platoon with Matt Diaz that much more important. Efrim

what’s so important about not having a platoon? I’ll be thrilled with one if they can combine for .280 20 HR and 85 RBI+. I fail to understand what so many here have against platoons when they have such a long history of success.

By Moby Grape

January 1, 2009 8:16 PM | Link to this

Prior to last season I think the most innings he’d pitched in a season was like 25 SaltyDawg

huh? he pitched as much or more in ‘07 than he did in ‘08. Doesn’t matter where it was. There was really no excuse for him to tire that badly. He has a good assortment of pitches but none are all that special. I think the league caught up to him. I’ll be damned disappointed if he is a regular in the starting rotation next summer

By Efrim

January 1, 2009 8:22 PM | Link to this

Moby Grape

If the “.280 20 HR and 85 RBI” produces a .280/.330/.450 line, then your expectations for our LF-middle of the order hitter are different than mine. Braves don’t need a Matt Diaz/Garrett Anderson platoon next year, unless they plan on battling for third place. I know you didn’t bring up Anderson, but I am just using the cheapest left handed hitting LF out there as an example.

By Lew

January 1, 2009 8:37 PM | Link to this

Campillo missed all of 06 with TJ surgery, came back and pitched about 140 something innings in 07, pitched Winter Ball in 07 and then pitched 158 innings for the Braves in 08. Dude was worn out by the end of last year. 300+ IP AND Winter Ball a year after TJ surgery? Pretty amazing if you ask me.

By ncscoots

January 1, 2009 8:44 PM | Link to this

I’ll be damned disappointed if [Campillo] is a regular in the starting rotation next summer

I’m with Moby on this one. Campillo in the starting rotation will mean that the Braves couldn’t two starters better than he. That, boys and girls, will not be good news.

I like the guy, but I think he’ll be more effective in small doses. As a long reliever, or even spot starting, I believe he would be great. But 30 starts? No, thanks.

By Anders

January 1, 2009 8:50 PM | Link to this

Lew

Campillo, Castillo. Both coming off of surgeries. Both hit the wall late last year. Could be looking at bounce back seasons in ‘09. Hey, I like your theory. I think I’ll apply it as well.

Thanks.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 9:10 PM | Link to this

BTW, folks, been watching MLB Network, which is showing Don Larsen’s perfect game from the 1956 World Series. Between several innings, Costas has the battery in the studio with him, Larsen and Yogi. Very cool. 15 future Hall of Famers were involved in that game. And as Costas said, one guy who didn’t make the HOF had the best game of anybody.

Plus, the announcers were Mel Allen and … Vin Scully! What a wonderful sport.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 9:12 PM | Link to this

I was about to say Yogi deserved a Presidential Medal of Freedom or a Congressional Gold Medal, but he’s already won both. And clearly earned them. What a national treasure.

By Moby Grape

January 1, 2009 9:14 PM | Link to this

If the “.280 20 HR and 85 RBI” produces a .280/.330/.450 line, then your expectations for our LF-middle of the order hitter are different than mine Efrim

I did not say anything about cheapest and I have absolutely no interest in Anderson.My point was that it might be more likely that they can pick up a guy who can hit righties well and add him to Matt’s .310/.355 or so against lefties. I think it is highly unlikely that they are going to sign the kind of big bopper 155 game starter that you want. A platoon could be a reasonable substitite.

Some on here act like its a brand of shame. Tell that to the Yank,Orioles etc who won a lot of games with several platoons goping at different positions.

They kept Diaz, he is not versatile or athletic enough to ever play center so he is not their 4th outfielder on a regular basis. I think that in itself tells us which way the wind could be blowing.

By Mark

January 1, 2009 9:16 PM | Link to this

Maybe all the braves play up to each ones potential and we win division by like 20 games..isnt that what its about liveing up to potential…

By Mark

January 1, 2009 9:18 PM | Link to this

I forgot to ask does anyone know if comcast will have that new baseball channel and if so how much money??

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 9:27 PM | Link to this

Mark,

All I can say is check your local listings. MLB Is on DirecTV (which I subscribe to), but the home page says it will be on Comcast, Time Warner and other cable systems. No extra charge, at least on DirecTV (just like the NFL Network).

By Braveheart

January 1, 2009 9:28 PM | Link to this

BTW, folks, been watching MLB Network, which is showing Don Larsen’s perfect game from the 1956 World Series. Between several innings, Costas has the battery in the studio with him, Larsen and Yogi. Very cool. 15 future Hall of Famers were involved in that game. And as Costas said, one guy who didn’t make the HOF had the best game of anybody

They’d better keep the Mickey Mantle orgasms from Bob Costas and Billy Crystal to a minimum on that channel. The last thing I need is anymore of Costas and Crystal acting like Meg Ryan in a diner at the mere mention of the Mick’s name.

By Doc Holiday

January 1, 2009 9:30 PM | Link to this

Salty Dawg

I agree that Blanco has not established himself as the regular CF, but you would have to agree that being 3rd on the team in OBP with .360+, just behind Chipper and McCann (players with more than 400AB), tied with yunel and ahead of KJ, is quite an accomplishment. For a rookie or a player so young, that says a lot of him. I would give him more chance to proof himself than JF (at least as we speak).

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 9:31 PM | Link to this

Moby

Nothing wrong with platoon players. Garret Anderson’s not a very productive guy vs. lefties or righties. In recent years, Jr. Griffey and Jim Edmonds have shown great lefty/righty splits.

If either one would be willing to become a platoon-only LF, the Braves could get some excellent production with Diaz on the other side.

By TennesseePaul

January 1, 2009 9:31 PM | Link to this

that, boys and girls, will not be good news

Yes. But don’t dare think of letting you believe that this was a failure on Frank Wren’s part. He is a flawless GM if there ever was one.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 9:33 PM | Link to this

Braveheart,

FWIW, Costas isn’t listed as one of the network’s primary on-air personalites. But I’ve always said, if you don’t like what they’re showing, or who’s there, no one’s forcing you to tune in.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 1, 2009 9:34 PM | Link to this

Anders Problem is that if you overwhelm Lowe by offering him tons more money, you end up making a very fiscally unsound move that could hurt your club in the future. I agree with you that the Braves need to get off their high horse when it comes to agents they won’t deal with. Between Wasserman and Boras, that’s a lot of players being represented. As a matter of fact, Moylan is represented by Tellem. Does that mean that he is automatically out the door when the time comes?

BravesFanInRockies If the Phils would pay about $12 million of the $9 million due to Eaton, you might consider him …

Your math is a bit off:-)

I keep hearing about Matt Diaz in a LF platoon, but that’s because of Bobby Cox. fact is, Diaz can hit anything thrown his way. In his career, he’s hitting .307 against righties with 384 ABs, and .328 with 408 ABs gainst lefties. I wouldn’t have a problem with Diaz playing everyday. In regards to the starting rotation, I’m praying that Smoltz is ready to go at the start of the season. I would love for the Braves to take a chance on Ben Sheets, for better or worse. It’s not like the Braves have never rolled the dice before on pitchers. Their history is loaded with bad moves. Might as well try one more time. No move is gonna be as bad as trading for that loser Len Barker in 1983, or trading Bedrock to Philly and then he wins the Cy Young as a closer. At any rate, Sheets is worth the gamble. A rotation of Sheets/Smoltz/Jurrjens/Vasquez/and Hanson or Campillo would be good. But if we can’t get Sheets, then I can live with Campillo as the 5th starter.

By Anders

January 1, 2009 9:46 PM | Link to this

Braveheart

very funny 9:28 post. I was thinking the same thing.

I wonder what outlets like ESPN will do about this? I’ll be honest, I’m more likely to turn on MLB.com first now so I don’t have to sit through all the NBA and college stuff on ESPN. I doubt I’m alone.

Lastly, John Heyman is on there too. That guy is on SI.com, WFAN Radio, MLB.com and another outlet that is slipping my mind. How does he decide where to break a story? We could solve the employment issues if he would just stick to one job and allow others to work!

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 9:51 PM | Link to this

Jerald,

Yup, I’d love to see the Braves go for Sheets. High risk, high reward. And how would that be different than what they tried with Burnett — for a lot more money?

As for Diaz, we must be looking at different sites for his split statistics. Baseball Reference says his career splits vs. lefties are .328/.361/.508 and his number vs. righties are .288/.325/.381.

The guy kills lefties and is merely OK vs. righties. I could say he’s no better than Francoeur vs. righties, but in fact, Frenchy’s not that good against righties or lefties …

So if you were deciding who to play and who to bench as a platoon guy, you’d actually bench JF. Against everybody. Ouch.

By Braveheart

January 1, 2009 9:53 PM | Link to this

FWIW, Costas isn’t listed as one of the network’s primary on-air personalites. But I’ve always said, if you don’t like what they’re showing, or who’s there, no one’s forcing you to tune in

I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. As Howard Stern always says, turn the station ….. if I’m gonna offend you, why are you sticking around to get offended? But, man, Crystal and Costas really got carried away with that Mickey Mantle thing for a while there.

By Moby Grape

January 1, 2009 9:56 PM | Link to this

I keep hearing about Matt Diaz in a LF platoon, but that’s because of Bobby Cox. fact is, Diaz can hit anything thrown his way. In his career, he’s hitting .307 against righties with 384 ABs, and .328 with 408 ABs gainst lefties. *Jerald8

I’d prefer someone with more power sharing the LF duties with him. Matt’s S% against righties is not all that hot. Find me a guy who can slug .500+ against right handed pitching, puhleeese.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 10:01 PM | Link to this

Anders,

MLB Network sounds wonderful. I’m a big college football and college hoops fan, but I tell ya, if MLB consciously covers the entire sport and doesn’t focus so tightly on the Yanks, the BoSox and (yes) the Mets, I’ll watch it often.

You understand why ESPN has that bias — it’s in their back yard, they dedicate an hour a day of their programming to baseball, and New York and Boston teams have the huge markets and the fanatical followings, but there are a couple dozen other teams and their stories deserve telling, too.

By Salty Dawg

January 1, 2009 10:07 PM | Link to this

Jerald Holcombe

I keep hearing about Matt Diaz in a LF platoon, but that’s because of Bobby Cox. fact is, Diaz can hit anything thrown his way. In his career, he’s hitting .307 against righties with 384 ABs, and .328 with 408 ABs gainst lefties. I wouldn’t have a problem with Diaz playing everyday. In regards to the starting rotation, I’m praying that Smoltz is ready to go at the start of the season. I would love for the Braves to take a chance on Ben Sheets, for better or worse. It’s not like the Braves have never rolled the dice before on pitchers. Their history is loaded with bad moves. Might as well try one more time. No move is gonna be as bad as trading for that loser Len Barker in 1983, or trading Bedrock to Philly and then he wins the Cy Young as a closer. At any rate, Sheets is worth the gamble. A rotation of Sheets/Smoltz/Jurrjens/Vasquez/and Hanson or Campillo would be good. But if we can’t get Sheets, then I can live with Campillo as the 5th starter.

Good point regarding Diaz. A lot of people overlook the fact that the guy can (and has) hit well against both lefties and righties. I never really understood Bobby’s propensity to platoon so much. Especially when you factor in that the hitter is likely to only face the starting pitcher 2 times per game, maybe 3, before the bullpen takes over. But I too would not mind seeing Diaz take the field as an every day player, or at least given the opportunity. I also won’t be surprised or disappointed to see Campillo in the rotation this year. Gotta think he will only improve over last year and be able to stay effective deeper into the season than last being more adjusted to a full season. Bobby Cox always spoke very highly of Campillo and unless he craps the bed in spring training and someone else steps up, I think we will see him in the rotation.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 10:21 PM | Link to this

Salty Dawg,

I wouldn’t say Diaz has hit well against righties for a corner OF. His power numbers against righties aren’t at all impressive, and face it, the Braves OF is mighty anemic.

As a platoon player, he’s a good choice. I’d put him out there vs. lefties every chance I got. But the Braves really need somebody who can mash the ball vs. RHP. And Diaz hasn’t shown he’s that guy. Nor has Frenchy. The team needs a bat.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 10:22 PM | Link to this

Especially for a team that lost 90 games in 2008 and has missed the playoffs three straight years, I would certainly hope the Braves would not be complacent regarding their offense.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 1, 2009 10:26 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies As for Diaz, we must be looking at different sites for his split statistics. Baseball Reference says his career splits vs. lefties are .328/.361/.508 and his number vs. righties are .288/.325/.381.

Your numbers may be more true than mine because mine are from 2006-2008. Anything before that didn’t seem too relevant to me. As for Francoeur, lets just hope that he turns it all around in 2009. He has too much talent to have another season like 2008. If he doesn’t improve, it’ll be a long year. On another note, with all the players we keep mentioning as getting playing time, we need to remember the great play of Omar Infante.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 10:27 PM | Link to this

Watching halftime at the Orange Bowl. Barry Switzer’s zoot suit may induce seizures.

But for a calming effect, here come the Doobie Brothers!

By MEB

January 1, 2009 10:33 PM | Link to this

I don’t know how much of Harold Reynolds I can stand but it looks like we are going to get a mega dose. This being a MLB production I’m also not sure how critical they will be of players and management. At least ESPN and other outlets can be critical as they want. Will they be able to do this on the MLB Network? I don’t know but I’m thinking not so much.

Well at least the classic games and Costas interviews with Hall of Fame greats will be entertaining.

Is anybody on cable getting the broadcast in HDTV? I have Time-Warner and we are not getting HD. Dang!!!

GO BRAVES!!!

By Dixie Dawg

January 1, 2009 10:40 PM | Link to this

Lord, this has been an uneventful offseason. I hope the Falcons can prolong their season cuz I don’t think we are goin to have anything to look forward to for the 09 season.

It’s sad how nobody wants to come here. This once proud dynasty is no longer the Braves that we knew.

I wish the Braves would blow up the team and rebuild. Maybe we’ll be competive in a couple of years.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 1, 2009 10:46 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies Especially for a team that lost 90 games in 2008 and has missed the playoffs three straight years, I would certainly hope the Braves would not be complacent regarding their offense.

Not gonna argue this point because we all know it has to improve over the lousy year our outfield had in 2008. But, if there is no legitimate hitter out there, then what can you do? I totally disagree with anyone who thinks that Dunn is the answer. I’ve seen that guy play defense and it’s just not fair to subject a fan to that. Then there’s all those freakin strikeouts. No thanks! Burrell’s not much better. I would take Abreu but haven’t heard the first rumor about him. I did hear today that the Giants are considering going after Manny Ramirez. If that actually does happen, then the Giants may need to dump the salary of someone like Randy Winn in order to be able to afford high dollars to Manny. Winn would a nice piece to add. Whaddaya think?

By Mitchie-san

January 1, 2009 10:50 PM | Link to this

My favorite moment over the past few years is not a Braves memory either. Well, it does include a former Brave…

Watching Carlos Beltran get turned into frozen pizza on that Adam Wainwright curveball to eliminate the Mets.

I hear he is still standing there with the bat on his shoulder….

By Braveheart

January 1, 2009 10:52 PM | Link to this

Diaz was something the Braves could afford because we first had Andruw and then had Tex.. We also somewhat knew what we were gonna get from Frenchy, even with his limitations.

That was the thing about Andruw that folks never appreciated. He gave us + corner production from an up the middle slot. Offensively and defensively, Andruw allowed the Braves to take shortcuts at corner slots. His offense and defense was so good, the Braves didn’t always need + value offensively and defensively at the corners. McCann and, to a degree, Javy have also afforded the Braves that luxury over the last 15 years (at least offensively).

Besides McCann, the Braves are no longer getting offensive value from an up the middle position that is the equivalent of + value for a corner guy. Escobar and KJ give + value for middle infielders that merely rises to the level of an average corner. Even though McCann does give + offensive value relative to a corner, he only gets out there 80% of the time, so his value offensively relative to an everyday corner is not all that much more than an average everyday corner.

If you’re not getting value up the middle that is considered + for a corner, it becomes even more imperative to get that + value for a corner from an actual corner.

Andruw is no longer allowing the Braves the luxury of cutting corners. Kotchman is not Tex and only gives average or slightly below value offensively for a corner. There’s no telling what Frenchy will do next season. Will he get back to being an average corner, a below average corner or a woeful corner? It likely doesn’t matter ‘cause he likely won’t give + value —— and even if he does, that ain’t something the Braves could ever reasonably foresee or count on before the season starts. Who knows what they’ll get in center. It likely will not even be average value offensively for a centerfielder.

Without an up the middle guy giving + value for a corner and without a corner besides Chipper giving + offensive value for a corner, I don’t see how the Braves could go into next season with Diaz being slotted to get any significant time in left. Not with Frenchy also on the team.

Tthe Braves likely would be better off trading Frenchy, getting a + corner bat for right and platooning someone with Diaz in left. To me, Diaz in a platoon with some other dude is more of a sure thing to be an average corner next season than Frenchy. if they don’t go out and get some big time centerfielder, I don’t see how Frenchy and Diaz are both on the team when the season starts. Neither gives the hope of giving, at best, anything more than average value for a corner.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 11:08 PM | Link to this

Jerald,

Winn would be an intriguing choice. He’s not a power hitter, and that’s what the Braves ideally need.

But he does other things well — gets on base, has gap power, steals bases without ever getting caught, plays solid D.

In an odd way, he’d give you the same kind of offense you would get from Rafael Furcal. I don’t know what the Giants would want in return, but chances are, not much — it would basically be a salary dump.

I’d rather sign Edmonds or Griffey or trade for Jermaine Dye (if he doesn’t cost too much in return).

But Winn would improve the offense in different ways.

Besides, he could play RF if Frenchy flops (again)!

By Braveheart

January 1, 2009 11:12 PM | Link to this

I wish the Braves would blow up the team and rebuild. Maybe we’ll be competive in a couple of years

Rebuild? Huh? Most of them are still in their club controlled seasons ….. McCann, Kotchman, KJ, Escobar, Infante, Nitram, Blanco, Frenchy, Diaz, Schafer, Anderson, Morton, Reyes, Campillo, Boyer, Acosta, Bennett, Hanson, Soriano, Gonzalez, Moylan, Jurrjens

……. and that’s the best of the best of our major league ready kids. Those are the ones good enough to be in the majors. Lately, the Braves haven’t exactly been shy about having kids who aren’t even ready on the team. Are you really dying to see the kids who weren’t deemed good enough to get time last year on a 90 loss team going nowhere? I ain’t.

The issue last season was that their vets weren’t healthy, the major league kids they were already grooming didn’t blossom into studs, and the Braves had no one in the AAA or AA level that could step in and be respectable major leaguers. The answers aren’t in the minors. They need to get some healthy + value vets and get some of the kids already here to become + value guys as well.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 1, 2009 11:19 PM | Link to this

Braveheart

You use the phrase “average value” alot in your last post. What do you define as “average value”? And are you talking about your definition of “average value” of a position player? In all my years being a fan of baseball, I’ve never seen “average value” determined by anyone inside the sport. Please, enlighten me.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 11:19 PM | Link to this

Braveheart,

You have to wonder if the Braves could get anything more than a bucket of balls for Francoeur after 2008. I’m afraid they’re stuck with him for at least the early part of 2009. If he rebounds, then you can move him at the deadline or after the season. If instead he stinks the joint up, they’ll be out of it by the All Star break and they can bench him or dump him then.

That’s why I prefer getting a platoon partner for Diaz (again, Griffey or Edmonds) if they have no intention of signing Dunn or Burrell to hit cleanup and play LF every day.

Also, my guess is the front office believes Schafer will win the CF job in the spring. If he plays the way he’s supposed to, they could get, say, Blanco’s on-base performance along with some decent power (10-15 HR, 35 2B or so).

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 11:29 PM | Link to this

Now, this is really weird. The Dodgers are reworking Andruw’s contract so that they can a) unload him and b) sign Manny.

From what I can gather, the Dodgers will do something like buy an annuity so that Andruw will get all his money, just over a longer period of time. But in return, Andruw’s contract for 2009 will be worth less, making him more attractive to another team.

Please, God, don’t let the Braves be that team.

But Coletti is essentially saying the Andruw signing was a huge mistake.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 1, 2009 11:31 PM | Link to this

It amazes me how so many of you are willing to sh?tcan Francoeur after having such a crappy season lasy year. You act like what he did previous to 2008 was an aberration. This is the same guy who came up in 2005 and hit .300 for the second half of the season. Then, he drove in more than 100 runs each in 2006 and 2007. And you wanna give up on something like that. You are ready to believe that 2008 was the real Jeff Francoeur? You people need help. Lots and lots of help.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 11:40 PM | Link to this

Jerald,

Braveheart can speak for himself, but the usual idea is that you need to get premium offense from at least four spots on the field: 1B, 3B, LF, RF. It’s a bonus to get plus production from the other “defensive” positions, too, of course. But if you’re lacking offense at one of the premium positions, you have to make it up someplace else. And you can’t really afford to get below average offense from any of the premium spots.

In 2008, the Braves got a plus at 3B, C, 2B and (maybe) SS. But below average from 1B (after Tex left), and all three OF spots.

The way the roster is currently constructed, the Braves face the same questions they had at the end of 2008. Kotchman has the potential to put up Mark Grace-like numbers or even better, but he hasn’t done it at the major league level yet. Schafer keeps being compared to Grady Sizemore, but again, he has to produce. Frenchy and Diaz are question marks, to be kind.

Without any fresh additions, everyone other than Chipper and Heap will need to have a career year in 2009 to make this team competitive. I’d feel better if they added some talent.

By csg

January 1, 2009 11:42 PM | Link to this

Jerald, the guy sucks. He’s posted a sub .300 OBP twice in 4 years. His power numbers continue to drop every year. When your hitting behind Chipper, McCann, Renty, Escobar, KJ, and Tex you should be able to drive in 100 runs.

By Braveheart

January 1, 2009 11:45 PM | Link to this

You use the phrase “average value” alot in your last post. What do you define as “average value”? And are you talking about your definition of “average value” of a position player? In all my years being a fan of baseball, I’ve never seen “average value” determined by anyone inside the sport. Please, enlighten me

In an average run environment, an average positional player should have an ops around .760. An average corner bat should be around .800. An average middle infielder and centerfielder should be around .720. An average catcher should be around .700. Every 40 or so ops points above or below for each position relative to the average dude at those positions should roughly be worth around +/- 10 runs. There’s a sh!tload of literature out there that describes this stuff in much better detail than I can.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 1, 2009 11:48 PM | Link to this

Jerald,

If Francoeur doesn’t rebound to at least 2007 levels in 2009, then he’s Brad Komminsk, Version 2.0, and probably out of baseball. Plenty of tools but no head for the game. Or at least no ability to figure out the difference between a pitch he can hit and one he can’t.

By Braveheart

January 2, 2009 12:02 AM | Link to this

BFIR, your 11:40 describes perfectly what I was trying to say.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 2, 2009 12:07 AM | Link to this

Braveheart, thanks. Now I’m outta here until next time.

By Moby Grape

January 2, 2009 12:18 AM | Link to this

Then, he drove in more than 100 runs each in 2006 and 2007. And you wanna give up on something like that. You are ready to believe that 2008 was the real Jeff Francoeur? You people need help. Lots and lots of help. Jerald

obviously you are not into modern stats or you wouldn’t have that question, so it’s probably not worth explaining to you past the point of saying that even in those years he was a flat-even average hitter with an OPS+ right around 100. So even if he bounces back to around that level, he is not anything special, and there is the possibility that he won’t come back that far. If you can’t get past BA/HR/RBI then you’ll think he’s just peachy.

By uga-brave

January 2, 2009 12:55 AM | Link to this

for all the prospect huggers out there?

read BRAVEHEART’S 10:32 post.

dead on.

i loved andruw. say this or that what he was or not, but he played everyday.

he played a defensive position. no one in the n.l. played a better cf.

never understood the bashing of andruw in his last season here.

yeah he had a rough ride, but he hit one less homerun then our entire outfield last year.

if one more person says diaz coming back is a plus, i will persoanally give bay area steve one of my great bottles of obans.

bay area steve, that will be a 20 year old bottle.

face the facts, why do you think js kicked himself upstairs.

he knew liberty was a lame duck owner.

so give the the job to ollie north (smilin frank) everyone needs someone to make their past accomplishments look better.

By uga-brave

January 2, 2009 1:10 AM | Link to this

braves fan in the rockies,

well done.

we are a plus at maybe three offensive positions.

bravey’s point is dead on. andruw was the rock.

we put guys like drew, sheff, tucker, gerald williams, chuck thomas, sanders, diaz, among others around him.

other then drew or sheff, none of any of those guys were first name guys.

By BravoMan

January 2, 2009 1:25 AM | Link to this

Okay Braves fans I got an idea. I know coming into this offseason our primary need was pitching. And in my opinion it still is, but I think I figured out our OF problems. Someone mentioned Randy Winn earlier. I like the idea of aquiring him because he can be the lead-off man we nearly had in the man whom I will not speak off(Furcal). He shouldn’t cost that much in a trade. He can also play CF and LF. I was one of the people earlier who thought adding Nick Swisher to our ballclub would benifit us. He’s versitile and he has power. Lets say we trade for Swisher and Winn. Either one can play CF or LF. Winn is a free agent after this year and therefore he wouldn’t block our young stud outfielders from coming to the Bigs. Swisher can play all OF spots and 1B, so if we had to we could trade Kotchman. As for pitching, keep an eye on the progress of Smoltzie and Glavine. We should have some focus on Lowe now but the guys old and wants a long term deal. We could take a look at Sheets for no more than 2 yrs. Then theres always Kawakami and Perez to check out too. We have a lot of options. And if our finances can allow this we should think about making this our line-up and aquiring one more starter. What do yea think?

1.R.Winn-CF 2.Y.Escobar-SS 3.C.Jones-3B 4.N.Swisher-LF 5.B.McCann-C 6.J.Francoeur-RF 7.C.Kotchman-1B 8.K.Johnson-2B

By KC

January 2, 2009 1:31 AM | Link to this

SURELY we’re going to make a pitch to D.Lowe!

We have to. The Mets initial offer - while it will certainly be improved by the Mets - shows that Lowe’s price tag is going to be attainable.

He won’t get anything close to the 18 million per season over 5 years that Boras says he wants for Lowe.

3 years 45 million might get it done, and the Braves can certainly afford to make that offer. If the Braves want any reasonable assurance of being competitive next year… they must make that offer.

By uga-brave

January 2, 2009 2:01 AM | Link to this

kc,

not fiscally responsible, not in the best interest of the frachise, we tried to make a couple of moves but we really like our core.

remember those thoughts or words.

smilin frank is already practicing them.

By N8

January 2, 2009 2:23 AM | Link to this

“never understood the bashing of andruw in his last season here.” uga-brave

For me personally? It was never about Andruw the player. It was never really about Andruw the person. It, however, was about Andruw the SCOTT BORAS CLIENT!

Andruw (under Boras’ nazi command, no doubt), wanted a king’s ransom in his walk year. After stinking it up (and it DID stink), for over a year, he and his agent should not have been such greedy pigs.

Period.

That being said, if the Dodgers would be interestd in eating about 90 percent of his contract to rid themselves of Andruw, I’d take him back to play LF and possibly platoon with Brandon Jones while batting 8th. LOL!

By J

January 2, 2009 2:38 AM | Link to this

i do not know why there is no faith in Frenchy - in his last 100 ABs he did bat around 290 and he is still very young.

By Frank Wren

January 2, 2009 2:43 AM | Link to this

Look, we like our young core ugabrave.

By ô¿ô

January 2, 2009 3:03 AM | Link to this

Any Chance the Braves might be interested in AJ if he becomes a free Agent?? I am sure he would love to come back to Atlanta and he should not cost much at all.

By Braveheart

January 2, 2009 3:10 AM | Link to this

1.R.Winn-CF 2.Y.Escobar-SS 3.C.Jones-3B 4.N.Swisher-LF 5.B.McCann-C 6.J.Francoeur-RF 7.C.Kotchman-1B 8.K.Johnson-2B

How is Randy Winn and Nick Swisher much different than going into last year with Mark Kotsay and Matt Diaz? The Braves need a big bat. Winn and Swisher are nice and all but Winn is not a leadoff hitter and Swisher is not a cleanup hitter. That’s really the issue here.

One thing I could see the Braves doing is asking 10 to bat 4th. I think that was maybe the direction they were heading with the Furcal fascination. The Braves don’t currently have any guys who seem destined to become true leadoff or cleanup hitters. Escobar and KJ, however, if they take their games to the next level, could become suitable enough #3 hitters.

Throughout his career, 10 has always been the prototypical major league #3 hitter. When he was healthy and young that meant .300/30/100 year in and year out. Now that he’s old and often injured, he has had to be content with .300/.400/.550 when he’s ready and able. But maybe he needs to change that a bit based on team need and defining his legacy.

10 has reached a level of mastery in his game that he could easily adjust to add more power to his game if he wanted to as a cleanup hitter. He can do whatever he wants with a bat in his hand now. He’s always been somewhat like Tom Brady - he can Wes Welker the D or Randy Moss the D depending on what the D gives him, what the team needs or what he wants to do. Last year, he seemed content to just Wes Welker them to death in his quest for a batting title.

10’s got his batting title now. He has somewhat built enough of a cushion to maintain a .300 batting average for his career. He’s entered the legacy defining stage of his career. All he’s got left is winning another World Series and going for 3000 hits and/or 500 homers. 3000 hits would likely take him another 5 seasons to reach. He could get to 500 in 3 or 4 seasons. He’s already one of the five best switch hitters and five best third baseman in the history of the game. 3000 and 500 are critical for his legacy. He’s a HOFer regardless. 500, however, sits him on the third base throne alone with Eddie Mathews and Mike Schmidt. He needs magical numbers like 3000 and/or 500 to sit comfortably on the switch hitting throne with Mantle, Rose, and Murray.

It wouldn’t shock me to see him take the ‘99 tricks out of his shed taught to him by Baylor and go for broke trying to hit 500 homers. Maybe he will sense time is running out and that 500 is more reasonably achievable than 3000. He has been hitting the weights hard this winter.

It could work out well for his legacy and for this 2009 team if they don’t get themselves another legit #4 quality hitter and if Escobar or KJ take their games to the next level. I really could see 10 throwing more bombs to Moss next year instead of settling for underneath throws to Welker like he did last year.

Of course, he could always keep on being the prototypical #3 hitter he’s always taken immense pride in being. I’m afraid, however, that if he does, time may run out and he may never get to 3000 or 500. Since 3000 seems a long shot anyway, he might as well go 500 or bust.

By BA

January 2, 2009 3:38 AM | Link to this

Braveheart, sir- you’re on quite a roll this evening. By this 10 batting cleanup theory, Abreu would make sense (to me) as a #3 hitter in left field.

But what I really liked was the stuff earlier about players values (corners vs. middles). Using these standards, does Dunn qualify as an above average corner? I’m no stat guru, but hitting .240-something and striking out 140 times stinks, walks or not.

I agree that with Schafer and Frenchy, we could survive a Dunn or a Burrell defensively, but would they really solve the problem, or just give opposing pitchers a third batter (with Frenchy and KJ) to strike out the side?

On an unrelated subject, middle relief is one of my concerns that I never see discussed here. Oh-man pitched 148 innings last year, and Boyer’s era was revolting. Who’s going to be as effective as Oh-man? If you’re going to bring back the Ugly Stick, you might as well pay the Oh-man.

-I will now serve a voluntary 24 hour suspension for breaking rule number (?) and addressing a veteran out of turn.-

By Bill

January 2, 2009 9:12 AM | Link to this

Jerald-agree-Please God, no to A Jones!!!

Yea, Francoeur is so great nobody wants him. Diaz and A Jones more crap. Man we really look good. Fans will pack the stands……across town at AAA.

By rico carty

January 2, 2009 9:25 AM | Link to this

Braveheart, EXCELLENT 3:10 AM post. Very good analysis of Chipper’s legacy, etc. I too want him to get 500/3000, but time may be running out on 3000 with his reduced AB. If he did get both, then only he and Eddie Murray would be switchhitters with both. Chipper’s a Hall of Famer right now, if he walked away, but I’d love to see him get those marks if possible.

He is such a great player that he could slide into the cleanup spot and slightly adjust his game. Maybe our best option is to play some small ball with Anderson/Schafer/Gorkys (any way he is a possibility this year?) leading off, then Escobar of KJ 2nd and the other 3rd in front of Chipper. If we don’t land a real cleanup hitter, that may be the best option. Another anemic year for power hitting, but our best bats would be 2-5 and maybe score a few runs.

Still can’t believe Furcal screwed us like that.

By Dadgum

January 2, 2009 9:42 AM | Link to this

Happy New Year to all…if ever a new year was ever needed it is this one.

Been a while since I posted due to the holidays et al. but a few things I see unfolding. First, Lowe ain’t signing with Atlanta. He has, I believe, officially turned down the Mets 36 mil/3 offer and looking for AJ Burnette type money. Can’t see the Braves going there.

Those that opine that maybe Sheets will be the answer, well no. He will command about 10 mil + and a good bet not to finish the season. In addition, he will go to Texas if Texas wishes to take that gamble. Not even in the weirdest scenarios can I see Sheets in a bRaves uniform.

While the Braves would have preferred to sign a top free agent to go with Vazquez as a starter it appears that isn’t likely to happen. With Wolf guilty by association and Garland coveted by the Mets I can’t see where the Braves gain much by signing another 2nd or 3rd tier pitcher.

This could very well be the year we have to trade at mid-season if we are still in the hunt. Smoltz may or may not be in our plans. A rotation of Jurrjens, Vazquez, REyes, Morton, Hanson may have to suffice. I am not expecting the Braves to acquire any other pitchers at this point unless Wren pulls a rabbit out of the hat. Time to go with youth and a lot of it.

Since I was reading up on the Braves free agents I noticed that Tim Hudson will be a free agent after 2010 with a 12 mil mutual option. Now that will be an interesting call for either the team or player. Does he pitch well enough in ‘10 that he tests the waters or poor enough following surgery that the Braves don’t pick up the option. Personally can’t see him with Atlanta past ‘10 but it’s early. Maybe Atlanta will be a good enough team and he will pitch well in ‘10 where they will both want each other. Who knows but it will be interesting. Just throwing this out there since we have rehashed every other scenario over multiple blogs for months.

Rock on

By keylargo

January 2, 2009 9:51 AM | Link to this

This is from an article by Ken Gurnick of MLB.com

Jones finished the season hitting .158 with three homers and 14 RBIs, playing in 75 games. Not exactly what the club had in mind when it signed him to the highest annual salary in club history. Nor was it expected that Jones would arrive in Spring Training noticeably overweight, slow of foot and bat speed. And he compounded it with poorly chosen words about not caring what the fans thought about his play.

Hot Stove

Jones, 32 in April, is a 10-time Gold Glove winner and five-time All-Star, but the Dodgers saw none of that. He vowed before leaving the club to report to 2009 Spring Training in better shape. He also said he would play winter ball in the Dominican Republic, where he has played five games, hitting .188 with no extra-base hits and eight strikeouts in 16 at-bats. He went home for the holidays, but the club expected him to resume playing in the Dominican Republic next week.

At the time Jones left the club, Colletti was asked if he remembered another player to fall so far so fast.

*”I can’t think of one and I’ve tried for the last five months,” he said. *

In my opinion, there is no circumstance that would allow AJ back on this team. Anyone who thinks he has anything in mind other than collecting the $22 million Scott Boras conned the Dodgers out of is delusional.

By Shaun

January 2, 2009 10:10 AM | Link to this

rico carty, I have Chipper as the second best switch hitter ever behind Mantle.

We Braves fans seem to take Chipper for granted.

Many fans, even Braves fans, do not like Chipper. A lot of it is probably because of the personal problems early in his career, which is understandable. Also, the Braves did not go deep into the playoffs that often after Chipper’s second season. Chipper was seen as the leader of the team and therefore became an easy scapegoat, it seems. Chipper also has a very relaxed swagger that comes across as lackadaisical and arrogant. However, looking at the evidence, we can clearly see Chipper doesn’t deserve the criticism he’s received as a baseball player.

Whatever you think of his attitude or his early-career philandering, Chipper Jones is an all-time great. Not only is the statistical evidence telling, when you listen to or read about Chipper Jones being interviewed he sounds like one of the smartest baseball minds ever to play the game. He honestly seems like the type of guy who could become a solid manager or even general manager one day.

So don’t let the swagger fool you. Don’t be swayed by the things in Jones’ personal life that may influence your opinion of him. No matter what you think of him or how he carries himself, Chipper Jones is one of the greatest players you’ve ever seen.

By Steve from OH

January 2, 2009 10:34 AM | Link to this

Shaun, exactly. And even if Chipper’s personal hiccups bother you, that should be negated by his willingness to take less money to stay with the Braves. The dude re-structured his contract to help free up cash for the Braves…if that’s not a team player, I don’t know what is. The dude is an all-time great on the field and (though I don’t know him personally) seems to be a pretty good guy off the field. There shouldn’t even be any debate.

By ncgary

January 2, 2009 10:38 AM | Link to this

id like to see sheets too, why not take a 3 year gamble , even if he has tj surgery you still have an ace for half the contract.. 3years 40 million would get it done , i think.the potential is there. besides its not my money. lol, why youre at it offer bradley a contract too , and hope the med ward isnt needed,

or trade the gwinnet braves for halladay and rios

lol

i know im and idiot

lol

By proeye

January 2, 2009 10:46 AM | Link to this

I think the problem is that the Braves can’t figure out what kind of ball club they are going to be. We have transitioned from a free spending championship caliber team, to a limited spending shadow of a ball club, to a transitioning team with $$$ that can’t figure out what it wants to do.

As far as approaches, we have the Marlins and Twins on one end and the Yankees and Red Sox on the other. Note that all four have won WS with their approaches more than once since divisional play. It seems to me that the past two off seasons, the Braves can’t figure out which end of the spectrum they are going to play closer to. I realize that they probably can’t be exactly like any of those teams but they can at least try to come up with a plan! I think be spack dab in the middle basically gets you nowhere.

Why go into an auction without at least trying to beat out other teams for your prize? They did this twice. Why set this arbitrary limit and lose out on what could have been your difference maker? It’s not like the other teams were that far off from your offer. Why go into a trade without thinking you may have to go beyond your original pre-determined arbitrary limit?

Basically the Braves have been embarrassed. They are not the same team they were a decade ago when they could pretty much get whatever they wanted. YES there IS a spending limit or we would have had our men by now. The Braves are no longer one of the top 3 teams in the majors in spending.

Okay, there is some more “off season” still to come, but I’m not holding my breath. Wren has not done a very good job so far.

Really, this could all be a result of the economy but it’s not like anyone is going to admit that. I haven’t heard anyone in management talk about this. Seems to me that this off season is no different than the last 3. It’s like everyone is playing this cat and mouse game to see who makes the first move(s).

By AustinBraves

January 2, 2009 10:53 AM | Link to this

The Red Sox have just announced that Clay Buchholz is on the market. Maybe a future Ace. The best thing about him is that you would have him tied up for 6 years. Maybe a gamble if you don’t have to give up the farm. What does everyone think?

By DAP

January 2, 2009 10:54 AM | Link to this

don from new years eve: Smoltz (in fortys, 5 significant arm operations, only 1 good year in recent years)

dont look at stats much hunh? you have to go back to 1988 (smoltz’s rookie year) to find a non-injury season that wasnt good.

to everyone complaining about the blog, the content, the vacation info, the food and music stuff…you do realize that DOB is on vacation, right? you guys are absolute jerks. im sure you realize this, DOB, but very few of us feel that way, and are grateful that you would take the time to write a blog on your vacation. you care about what you do, and it shows. thanks, youre the best.

braveheart How is Randy Winn and Nick Swisher much different than going into last year with Mark Kotsay and Matt Diaz? The Braves need a big bat. Winn and Swisher are nice and all but Winn is not a leadoff hitter and Swisher is not a cleanup hitter.

winn would actually make a pretty good leadoff hitter. decent power, solid OBP, and good defensively in the outfield. id rather have swisher, who has more power, and good on base ability. plus, he has a very team friendly contract. i wouldnt bat him cleanup though. id bat swisher 5th and let mac cleanup. sandwiched between chipper and swisher, two switch hitters with power, i think he would do well.

By raymond

January 2, 2009 11:05 AM | Link to this

After watching our lack of activity in the off season I can only come to the conclusion that the Braves have decided to go with the youngsters and save money. Even if they decided to spend money, who would want to come to Atlanta. I’m sure we could get someone here if we overpaid them but that is not going to happen. I’ll make a prediction, if Smoltz makes it back you will see him or Chipper wave their no trade status and be traded to a contender by the All Star break so we can pick up some more cheap prospects. This is not the same Braves of the Ted Turner era, but I wish ole Ted was still here, I would even put up with Jane ( something Ted could not do).

By JC from UT

January 2, 2009 11:19 AM | Link to this

SHAUN: Your post about Chipper could not be more dead on. I hope he doas finish his playing career with the Braves and then slide into being a caoch for a couple years then manager. He would be grat to replace Bobby if the gap in years wasn’t so big. There is no reason why he cannot be the lifelong Braves icon much the way Ernie Banks is with the Cubs or Mickey Mantle/Yogi Berrs is with the Yankees.

By Steve McP

January 2, 2009 11:25 AM | Link to this

Why would the Braves want to sign Nick Swisher?

In 2008 he had the worst batting average among players with at least 502 plate appearances, the number needed to qualify for the batting title. His BA was . 219, slugging .410

Frenchy with his BA of .239 and 434 slugging has been much maligned on this site, yet he out performed according to these stats - yes Swisher did hit more homers, but I can’t imagine the frustration of watching him get out in important situations.

By Bill

January 2, 2009 11:27 AM | Link to this

Shaun—You are right on…Chipper is the Best!! Mad Dog, Chipper and Smoltz are very smart baseball men, all three would be a great Mgr. All three 1st class.

No, to Winn and Swisher.

By JC from UT

January 2, 2009 11:28 AM | Link to this

AustinBrave: Who are you giving up for Buchholtz? The article said Boston is looking for a young star. Would Yunel qualify? They might be looking for a SS since they were looking into Hanely Rameriz. How about Yunel and Francouer for Buccholtz and JD Drew? Drew had a great year here before and seemed to really like BC and Chipper. Maybe boston will eat some of Julio Lugo’s contract and he can replace Yunel at ss

By Bill M.

January 2, 2009 11:30 AM | Link to this

Would the Braves consider trading McCann? Sherman is writing some crazy rumors. What would the Red Sox’s have that would make the Braves better? I’m all for it, if it would make Braves alot better.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 2, 2009 11:41 AM | Link to this

csg You’re losing it bub. Just because we had guys on base ahead of Francoeur doesn’t mean anything unless he brings them in, and that is why we have a stat like RISP. Since Francoeur has been in the bigs, he has had guys in scoring position. In 2005, he hit .338. In 2006 he hit .320. In 2007 his RISP was .341. Last year his RISP dropped all the way down to .192. That is the only reason why we are even having this discussion. If Francoeur had followed suit last year with his other years, he would still be one of the most untouchable players on the roster. The way you react with the year he last year, it’s a good thing that Chipper didn’t have 1 bad year early in his career. He would’ve blasted him too.

By ozzie

January 2, 2009 11:41 AM | Link to this

If there is a LF platoon in 09 with Diaz and anyone else expect a photo copy of 2008 with lots of one run losses.

Diaz is a scrappy player with no power (apart from BP) and is marginal defensively.

The Braves cannot draw snake eyes in the rotation and LF this off season.

If they do 4th or even last place is where they are headed.

That will kill attendance and put Wren on the hot seat IMHO.

They don’t need to win the division or even the WC but coming in close to dead last with another 90 loss season is not acceptable for a 95mm payroll.

Liberty has no loyalty to Wren so I cannot see them being happy with half empty stadiums and irate fans.

Wren needs to get Dunn and his lock 40hrs b/c no one on the Braves will even sniff that number.

By Random

January 2, 2009 11:41 AM | Link to this

Jerald Holcombe: “It amazes me how so many of you are willing to sh?tcan Francoeur after having such a crappy season lasy year. You act like what he did previous to 2008 was an aberration. This is the same guy who came up in 2005 and hit .300 for the second half of the season. Then, he drove in more than 100 runs each in 2006 and 2007. And you wanna give up on something like that. You are ready to believe that 2008 was the real Jeff Francoeur? You people need help. Lots and lots of help.”

Check out this Baseball Prospectus Player Profile of Francoeur for a deeper and more informed analysis of his career, in particular its downward trajectory from pretty much Day One.

Here are some excerpts:

He made steps toward this [maturing at the plate] in 2007, at least at first glance. He jumped his line up to .293/.338/.444, which appeared to be an improvement thanks to the increased OBP (and a rise in his walk rate to 6.1 percent). Once you notice that his BABIP (.342, similar to his first season’s, and above expectations generated by a line-drive rate of 19.4 percent) and ISO (down to .151, the second season in a row with a significant drop in power) were out of whack, any optimism begins to fade.

Neither of these issues were taken care of in 2008. Francoeur had the worst season of his professional career, hitting all of .239/.294/.359, with walks in 6.1 percent of his plate appearances, and a .120 ISO fit for a light-hitting middle infielder, not for a corner outfielder who’s built like a home-run factory… .

The lack of plate discipline is at the root of his stagnating development. Francoeur knows and understands the problem, but the way he has gone about trying to solve it—taking pitches just because he knows he needs to, rather than learning which pitches to take and when—is keeping him from reaching his full potential, or in the case of 2008, even a sizable fraction of it. His continued struggle against right-handers also looms large, as hitters who can’t deal with them aren’t very valuable as everyday players.

As a 25-year-old heading into 2009, Francoeur still has time to improve his game and deliver a peak worthy of the hype surrounding his first years as a professional. As of now though, he is a disappointing player who may have his heart in the right place—he has tried to rectify the situation—but who has failed to deliver on his promise. An extended stay in the minors may be best for all involved—the Braves fancy themselves a contender for the NL East title, and if not for their injuries in 2008, would have been in the mix with the talent on hand—as Francoeur needs to learn basic strike-zone judgment before he’ll be able to make it as a productive right fielder at the plate. —Marc Normandin

Jeff’s plate discipline is a major, major concern, and unfortunately he has done literally nothing to show any hint of improvement. In his rookie season, he swung at 34.7 percent of pitches thrown out of the strike zone. In 2006, this rose to 36.7 percent, and over the last two seasons, to 36.7 and 36.3 percent. Granted, he has not gotten any worse in this regard, but maintaining the status quo in this situation is not a positive. Curiously enough, his rates of swinging at pitches in the strike zone have declined, from 85.8 percent in 2006, to 76.1 percent in 2008. Francouer still cannot lay off of pitches he shouldn’t be swinging at, and is keeping the bat on his shoulder on called strikes. I don’t know how anyone can truly succeed like that. Compounding the problem is that Francouer is now seeing more pitches out of the strike zone. And why not? If opposing pitchers know he can’t resist them, why bother giving him anything in the zone? Even with an increasing rate of contact on balls out of the zone, his overall numbers speak volumes for the type of contact he is managing.

Frenchy’s 2008 performance even earned him a demotion to Triple-A during the season. Prior to being sent down around Independence Day, he was hitting .234/.287/.374, with eight home runs. Upon returning a week later, Jeff hit .245/.303/.340. He improved his on-base percentage despite still posting a poor split-mark, but continued to exhibit less power. Francoeur is just 24 years old, but he does not walk, strikes out far too often, seems to rely on BABIP fluctuations to get him on base, and has shown very alarming signs in his fading power-hitting game. The formula for his success remains the same: he needs to lay off of outside pitches, which will cause pitchers to throw into his wheelhouse more often, giving him ample opportunity to get his bat on the ball. This will lead to an increased rate of walks, a higher OBP, and hopefully, a higher SLG. If he cannot make these adjustments, even his above-average defense will not keep him on the field for 162 games on a team seriously trying to contend. —Eric Seidman

Also, you cannot gloss over the fact that his isolated power (ISO, or SLG minus AVG) has steadily decreased year after year after year. (2005 — 2008: .249, .189, .151, .120).

All that having been said, Francoeur did end last season with 28 hits (8 doubles) in 98 ABs, good for .286/.333/.416. I believe that most here would consider that would be a fair 2009 start for him, particularly when compared to his 2008 season totals (.239/.294/.359), or even his career numbers (.268/.312/.434).

By DAP

January 2, 2009 11:52 AM | Link to this

steve McP Why would the Braves want to sign Nick Swisher?

well, first of all, that would be impossible, since he isnt a free agent.

but trading for swisher would be a good move for several reasons. first of all, he can play all three outfield positions, and 1st base. only is CF is he not excellent defensively, and even there he is serviceable. defensive versatility is a plus.

he is signed for the next three years at an average annual salary of $7mil, and has a club option of a 4th year, with a $1mil buyout. so a very team friendly contract.

also, he is pretty good offensively. he had a pretty bad year with chicago, but has shown the ability to get on base at a high rate and hit alot of homers. he hit 35 in 2006. also, look at his .219 BA in 2008 next to his .332 OBP. .332 isnt great, but to me, this shows he has the ability to take pitches and get walks. he has very good plate discipline. hes only 28, and had a rough year with a manager he didnt like, and i think he is going to bounce back.

by the way, comparing swisher to frenchy is just silly. first of all, frenchy had no where near the .434 slug% you cited. he slugged .359 in 08, with a .294 OBP. a .653 OPS.

swisher on the other hand, out-OBP francouer by about 40 points (.332OBP) and out slugged him by 50 points (.410slg%) for a .742 OPS.

but, you say fenchy out performed swisher. whatever, man.

again, id love to have swisher, i think he will bounce back and have a good season. hes got it in him.

By Anders

January 2, 2009 11:53 AM | Link to this

Jc from UT*

How about Yunel and Francouer for Buccholtz and JD Drew? Drew had a great year here before and seemed to really like BC and Chipper. Maybe boston will eat some of Julio Lugo’s contract and he can replace Yunel at ss

Sure, and the Red Sox can bailout the big three auto makers while they’re at it.

BTW- It was reported that Boston planned on using Ramirez in center not at SS where they are happy with Jed Lowrie. They were going to make Elsbury part of the trade. I doubt they would be interested in Yunel.

Now if the Braves wanted to trade Chipper for Buchholz plus and build around that trade I’d bet Boston would listen. After all they were ready to move things around to fit Tex in. He’s just the protection Big Papi needs. Hard decisions these but Wren needs to sell high, especially when the market won’t allow him to buy.

I know, I know I’m a blasphemer for thinking such things!

By AustinBraves

January 2, 2009 11:58 AM | Link to this

JC from UT- You would need to give up Yunel for sure, but I haven’t given up on Francouer. I like Drew but what type of salary and contract does he have? For sure Boston would do anything to get rid of Lugo maybe eat 90% of salary. Maybe Yunel and Morton for Buchholtz and Lugo.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 2, 2009 11:58 AM | Link to this

Braveheart There’s a sh!tload of literature out there that describes this stuff in much better detail than I can.

Okay, maybe there is, but just goes to show that some writers have too much time on their hands. My only criteria is that we have at 3rd base and catcher two of the best in the business. Escobar is a .300 hitter and Johnson is still improving. Kotchman hasn’t does as well since be traded, but he is great defensively and I hope he hits better in 2009. I expect Francoeur to bounce back and Diaz can hit period. Give us a quality CF and we could have a really good offensively club again like we had in 2007. Staying healthy is the key.

By Random

January 2, 2009 12:05 PM | Link to this

Dadgum: “Lowe ain’t signing with Atlanta. He has, I believe, officially turned down the Mets 36 mil/3 offer and looking for AJ Burnette type money. Can’t see the Braves going there.”

If they “went there” for Burnett, why in the world wouldn’t they go there (or farther, $$$-wise), for Lowe, by most (all?) accounts the better of the two???

By Jerald Holcombe

January 2, 2009 12:06 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies If Francoeur doesn’t rebound to at least 2007 levels in 2009, then he’s Brad Komminsk, Version 2.0

Oh hell no! We will not, and I repeat will not compare Jeff Francoeur to that piece of crap Brad Komminsk, who NEVER, EVER showed an ability to play baseball in the bigs. As a matter of fact, he was the sole responsibility of Hank Aaron, who swore that Komminsk would be great. Just goes to show that just because you used to hit homers doesn’t mean that you can grade talent.

By KC

January 2, 2009 12:11 PM | Link to this

Simplifying the Franoeur situation…

We can talk about plate discipline and all of this sh!t until we’re blue in the face. But here’s the bottom line:

Francoeur was an excellent hitter and run producer in 2007. Over the winter, he got himself in football shape and took the field in 08 intent on hitting more homeruns… and it screwed him up. Royally.

Before the season during batting practice, Chipper watched him hit and busted on him by saying “lose an Andruw, gain an Andruw”. Ouch.

That says it all.

Plate discipline be damned. All Francoeur has to do is rid his mind of all things 2008, and pick up where he left off in September of 07’.

Sometimes good players have seasons like this, and the only thing that can fix it is several months away from the game, and a fresh start the next season. Just ask Tim Hudson.

By Steve McP

January 2, 2009 12:15 PM | Link to this

My bad on the SLG - .434 is Frenchy’s career figure.

I just worry that we could have another guy who gets out when it matters, and becomes very frustrating for the fans, we had Andruw doing that in 07 and then Frenchy last year - maybe a change of scenery will invigorate Swisher, adding 20+ homers would be great, as long as he gets some of them in important situations.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 2, 2009 12:17 PM | Link to this

Moby Grape So even if he bounces back to around that level, he is not anything special, and there is the possibility that he won’t come back that far. If you can’t get past BA/HR/RBI then you’ll think he’s just peachy

Mark my words, if he bounces back to the same levels before 2008, not one of you will be complaining about Jeff Francoeur. I know that because I don’t recall reading anything negative from this blog in 2007. But maybe DOB can shed some light on that for me in case my memory is a little hazy. And of course, you guys started calling him Frenchy in an adoring sort of way. Somebody besides me was pleased with the guy.

By Random

January 2, 2009 12:18 PM | Link to this

Braveheart There’s a sh!tload of literature out there that describes this stuff in much better detail than I can.

Jerald Holcombe: “Okay, maybe there is, but just goes to show that some writers have too much time on their hands.”

Also “goes to show” that they’ve thought about it a lot more than you have, and very likely know a lot more than you about what they’re talking about.

Simply shrugging them off or dismissing them out of hand suggests a willful ignorance on your part.

“I expect Francoeur to bounce back”

On the basis of what — wishful thinking?

I think you mean “you hope Francoeur bounces back” — as do we all, my friend, asduwial.

By Anders

January 2, 2009 12:22 PM | Link to this

Random and Dadgum

I haven’t seen any reports that Lowe has officially turned down the Mets offer. It was reported that he was underwhelmed which is no suprise. All that is is a signal from Boras to the rest of the market that Lowe is still open for business. Now, I think he’ll get more than the Mets offered but I would be shocked if anyone offered him near what Burnett got.

I also think the market is too quiet for him. Someone’s lurking out there ready to pounce - Could be Wren? We’ll see.

By Jim

January 2, 2009 12:38 PM | Link to this

Come on back soon Dave - we need a factoid out of Wren to give us some hope.

Let’s hope the B’s are trying to do something big with Toronto. Lots of opportunity there to help the B’s and also let the blue birds regenerate as they go through business issues related to death of owner and the stiff competition that team will face anyway in ‘09 in its division.

By DAP

January 2, 2009 12:39 PM | Link to this

steve mcP I just worry that we could have another guy who gets out when it matters,

swisher makes outs less often than andruw and frenchy, so swisher would be better than either of these guys were. also, let me just point out that swisher’s career slg% leads frenchy’s by about 20 points.

jerald holcomb if he bounces back to the same levels before 2008, not one of you will be complaining about Jeff Francoeur. I know that because I don’t recall reading anything negative from this blog in 2007.

thats probably because 2007 was seen as jeff improving. bloggers were happy with his performance and expected him to continue to improve in 2008. if he gets back to his 2007 numbers, i think most here will be happy, but if he stays there for his entire career, there will be much lamenting on what could have been.

By Bill

January 2, 2009 12:54 PM | Link to this

Go to SportingNews.com and read Chipper and the Braves can’t depend on Free Agents. Good stuff.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 2, 2009 12:59 PM | Link to this

Jerald,

Francoeur was called up in 2005 as a sheer emergency. Raul Mondesi and Brian Jordan could not play any more, and the Braves had moved Kelly Johnson to the OF because there was nobody on the major league roster who could hit a lick.

Frenchy showed every indication he would be an average or perhaps slightly above average major leaguers. His minor league OPS was .808 — a little better than the career minor league OPS of — that’s right — Brad Komminsk (.792), who arrived in Atlanta with a lot more fanfare. I saw Komminsk play in the minors, and like Frenchy, he looked like the real deal.

Frenchy wasn’t the most anticipated Braves prospect since Komminsk — Chipper was, and as a SS with an .874 OPS, there was reason to believe Chipper would be really special. Frenchy was brought because there was nobody else the Braves could turn to, and Time Warner wouldn’t give the front office two nickels to go out and get a veteran hitter. That’s the only reason Mondesi and Jordan were on the roster that year, period.

To his credit, Frenchy has not been overmatched to the degree Komminsk was from the day he reached the major leagues. But he has a lot of work to do to rebound. I hope it happens because I want the Braves to win.

By Random

January 2, 2009 1:25 PM | Link to this

KC: “Simplifying the Franoeur situation…

“We can talk about plate discipline and all of this sh!t until we’re blue in the face. But here’s the bottom line:

“Francoeur was an excellent hitter and run producer in 2007.”

If that’s your bottom-line, then you’re oversimplifying.

You’re dumbing it down, in fact, and we’re all the dumber for it (to the extent we buy what you’re peddling).

Francoeur simply was not an “excellent” hitter in 2007.

Except for Andruw, JF had more PAs with runners on base than any other Brave, and more runners on base in those situations than any other Brave. His 2007 BABIP demonstrates that he simply got lucky in 2007.

JF’s been on a hitting decline since 2005. It’s that “simple”.

So sure, he was better in 2007 than in 2008 — that’s not saying much; and sure, he was better in 2007 than Andruw was — that’s not saying much either. Neither are in any way an indicator of “excellence”.

By Anders

January 2, 2009 1:28 PM | Link to this

The words of Chipper Jones:

Ten or 15 years ago, we could lure people to Atlanta strictly on reputation. You knew we were going to win, and we had a bunch of good players. Players would shun money from New York and take less to come here. For the past three seasons, we’ve kind of been on the downslide and not making the playoffs, so you can’t do that anymore. We can’t compete monetarily, so the only way we’re going to get players in here to play and win is to force them—and that’s done by trading

Hmmm… Sounds like even Chipper himself agrees with what “old Crazy Anders” has been saying for months and months. The lure of Bobby Cox and the Braves organization is dead.

Then there was this interesting tidbit:

The downside to trading is that it weakens your minor league system. But the only way that we are going to win now is through trades

Hmmm.. Sounds like Chipper wants the Braves to trade some valued prospects now to force good players to come to Atlanta. Stay tuned.

By DAP

January 2, 2009 1:38 PM | Link to this

chipper jones frm the sportingnews.com article mentioned above:

“We won for 14 consecutive years, and you never, ever saw any bulletin board material. And now that these two teams are on top of the division, they can’t keep their mouths shut. Just go play baseball. It’s Cole Hamels now. It was Jimmy Rollins and Carlos Beltran the past couple of springs. These two teams are constantly going at each other verbally. You know, win with class, lose with class. Just keep your mouth shut and go play your game. “

love the quote from chipper, and its exactly how he plays. when he hits a homers, he just drops head head and runs, with no expression until he reaches the dugout. he celebrates there, laughs with teammates, has a good time, but on the field, its all business. he does not disrespect or show up the other team.

By Thrillhouse44

January 2, 2009 1:40 PM | Link to this

Anders, don’t pull anything patting yourself on the back there, chump.

By DAP

January 2, 2009 1:41 PM | Link to this

anders Sounds like even Chipper himself agrees with what “old Crazy Anders” has been saying for months and months. The lure of Bobby Cox and the Braves organization is dead.

who here has argued that point? ive read braves fans say that more than ive seen you say it.

By 74 Georgia grad

January 2, 2009 1:48 PM | Link to this

As someone who grew up devouring baseball stats and still has a great appreciation for the game’s numbers, there are times when I just want to scream at some of you spouting the latest and trendiest statistical offerings: WTF is that gibberish you’re citing.

The Braves much-maligned RF is a favorite target of the blog’s modern stat-heads, mostly because he has an aversion to taking four balls in a single at bat. During a recent discussion about Francouer, one person (a reasonably knowledgeable one if I remember correctly) opined that he was the worst corner outfielder in baseball based on his 2008 numbers, and wasn’t that special in the preceding seasons.

The reason for Francouer’s dismal ranking was one of baseball’s new 3-letter acronyms that make we want to utter one of several 4-letter words every time I come across them — OBP. Thanks to OBP & OPS, the modern baseball expert has discarded every other baseball stat relating to offense, with players judged solely on those 2 numbers.

What crap.

Francouer drove in 100 runs each of his first 2 full seasons, but as all of us troglodyte baseball fans have come to learn, RBIs are an inconsequential stat because they are too dependent on external factors. Obviously, there is a degree of truth to that, but in their zeal to boil down a hitter’s worth to one or two numbers, the modern statheads ignore an array of stats that provide better insights to a hitter’s production than the all-encompassing 3-letter acronyms.

The reason Francouer drove in 100 runs in ‘06 and ‘07 was because he hit over .300 both seasons with RISP and was among the league leaders in 2-out RBI. But since his almighty OBP was under .300 in ‘06 and his slugging percentage dropped in ‘07, he really wasn’t that good a player, because we all know that are RBIs are not an accurate reflection of a hitter’s worth and RISP is based on too few opportunities to be taken seriously.

For hitters like Francouer who spend most of their nights hitting somewhere in the 5-6-7 spots in the batting order, getting on base is a secondary concern to driving in runs. The fact that he doesn’t walk is not that big a deal, especially in comparison to a hitter at the top of the lineup, whose job it is to get on base.

Evaluating players primarily on the basis of those 3-letter acronyms is absurd, in part because it eliminates context. Such as:

Runners on 2nd & 3rd and 2 outs, #6 hitter at the plate. The pitcher is not going to issue an intentional walk, but is going to pitch around the hitter.

Scenario A: The hitter patiently takes his 4 balls to load the bases, and the next batter, a weaker hitter, pops up. According to the modern stathead, the #6 hitter has done his job perfectly; his OBP is 1.000. Did he help his team? Not really.

Scenario B: Instead of taking pitches a few inches off the plate, the #6 hitter decides to be aggressive, and dumps on outside pitch into the outfield for a 2-run single. According to the modern statheads, this result is no better than Scenario A, since he reached 1st base in either event.

Obviously, he also could have made an out, but the final result for the team is the same as had he taken the walk.

For those who downgrade the significance of RBIs, unless you can site a more modern version of Joe Carter, give it a rest. If a guy drives in 110 runs and hits .225 with RISP, then you have a case. If he drives in the same number of runs but hits .320 with RISP, there is no way you can disparage his accomplishment no matter what some of those 3-letter acronyms say.

Francouer more than did his job his first 2 1/2 seasons with the Braves. He was putrid last year and the team suffered as a result. Unless he has completely forgotten how to hit, unlikely considering his age and previous level of performance, he should be a very productive player again this season, regardless of what the those 3-letter acronyms tell us.

By Thrillhouse44

January 2, 2009 1:50 PM | Link to this

Anders, another thing: has anyone here argued the fact that Atlanta can’t lure free agents based on winning the way they used to? I know many others have stated the same thing in a much classier, less pompous manner than you have. (I don’t remember you ever saying it, but I’m not arguing that.) Regardless, it’s not a shock that the free agents aren’t begging to go to Atlanta; especially with Bobby nearing the end of his reign. But, according to you, we should all bow down and throw endearment towards “crazy old” d-bag Anders because he came on here and announced it for us.

Anders, today is Friday. Will you please post telling me how right I am so I can feel complete? Please!

By Trip K

January 2, 2009 1:56 PM | Link to this

Hopefully Wren is Looking into Sheets more than Lowe - sheets is a better pitcher and only 30.

and i would love to see the braves try to trade for someone like Clay Buchholz or Phil Hughes

braves sign sheets and trade chipper for Clay then sign ty wiggy. that would leave plenty of money to sign smoltz and a LF Also.

would make a very good roatation for now and even better future

how about 2010 sheets hudson JJ Hanson Buchholz

trade vazquez next winter. and lock up the young guns.

just talking out of my azz though.

By Doc Holiday

January 2, 2009 2:04 PM | Link to this

Plate discipline be damned. All Francoeur has to do is rid his mind of all things 2008, and pick up where he left off in September of 07’.

It might be easy to say that KC, but now he is in the Black hole, getting out of it could be easy, but it could also be impossible. It could be more than just a mental approach.

By DAP

January 2, 2009 2:10 PM | Link to this

74 Georgia grad

dont disregard those three letter stats so quickly, old man.

OBP is perhaps the most basic and telling offensive stat you can use. think about it. the best possible offense (or player) would be one that never made an out, weather with a hit, a walk, whatever (impossible, and the game would take forever, literally but still…) and the worst offense (or player) imaginable would be one who made an out ever single time.

the first senerio is a player with a 1.000 OBP, and the second is a .000 OBP. the closer to 1.000, the better.

thats it and pretty basic. its the most fundamental thing to an offense. not making outs, and a great measure of how valuable a player is.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 2, 2009 2:19 PM | Link to this

Bill Yea, Francoeur is so great nobody wants him

Were we shopping him? Nope. How do you know what the market for him would be if he isn’t being shopped. Furthermore, I doubt the front office would want to shop him.

Dadgum

Tim Hudson’s option year is 2010. It’s a $12mil mutually agreed upon option based on number of innings pitched in 2009. Now, considering the fact that he won’t reach those innings pitched in 2009 because of his surgery, I’m pretty sure that he will be a free agent at the end of 2009. That’s not to say that the Braves don’t do something to retain him, but it’s not likely unless he were to actually come back in August and pitch well enough convince the front office that it’s a good move.

DAP to everyone complaining about the blog, the content, the vacation info, the food and music stuff…you do realize that DOB is on vacation, right? you guys are absolute jerks. im sure you realize this, DOB, but very few of us feel that way, and are grateful that you would take the time to write a blog on your vacation. you care about what you do, and it shows. thanks, youre the best.

Geez dude, nobody’s said anything in that regard in days now. Why bring it back up. Let it go. I voiced an opinion and that is all it was. Go on to something else.

KC Plate discipline be damned. All Francoeur has to do is rid his mind of all things 2008, and pick up where he left off in September of 07’

Thank you

By Doc Holiday

January 2, 2009 2:24 PM | Link to this

love the quote from chipper, and its exactly how he plays. when he hits a homers, he just drops head head and runs, with no expression until he reaches the dugout. he celebrates there, laughs with teammates, has a good time, but on the field, its all business. he does not disrespect or show up the other team. DAP

You might be right, but not 100% IMO. That could be a problem sometimes, it has been discussed here many times. The lack of fire is not always a good thing. I agree talking so much trash is not the best way, but not showing a single emotion aint either, there has to be some balance between the 2.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 2, 2009 2:26 PM | Link to this

Random Also “goes to show” that they’ve thought about it a lot more than you have, and very likely know a lot more than you about what they’re talking about

Also helps to get paid to micro manage stats til they’re coming out of your ears. Me, I’ll stick to the human angle and what my eyes are telling me. Is that okay with you?

By DAP

January 2, 2009 2:29 PM | Link to this

jerald holcomb just catching up on the blog today, and wanted to make sure DOB knew he was appreciated from posting on his off day, even though a few idiots were giving him a hard time. if it doesnt apply to you, move on.

also, i cant find anywhere that says hudson’s option has anything to do with innings pitched? its not a vesting option, that i can tell, just a mutual option. where are you getting your info?

By DAP

January 2, 2009 2:31 PM | Link to this

doc holliday i think youre right. a good balance is important. i still respect chipper very much for the way he plays, though.

By Anders

January 2, 2009 2:33 PM | Link to this

DAP and Thrillhouse

who here has argued that point? ive read braves fans say that more than ive seen you say it.

Bull, most of you guys have only come to this conclusion once Hampton, Peavy, Burnett and Furcal left the Braves at the altar. I’ve been saying this for over a year and most would tell me players love to play for Cox and prefer Atlanta over New York because of the cost of living etc… Why are so many of you upset about Peavy, Burnett and Furcal if you knew they wouldn’t come anyway.

You guys are really something. Even DOB didn’t write about the lure being gone until about 5 blogs ago. Go look it up if you want.

Just for the record I’ve also been saying this Chipper thing ain’t done. If the Braves don’t make some kind of move he’s not gonna be happy sitting through another 90 loss season. Plus he saw the money they offered Burnett and Furcal - You think he wants to continue giving discounts to play with prodigies for the next couple of years? Or did you already say that too?

By Braveheart

January 2, 2009 2:36 PM | Link to this

Also helps to get paid to micro manage stats til they’re coming out of your ears. Me, I’ll stick to the human angle and what my eyes are telling me. Is that okay with you?

Jerald, you could get away with that if you weren’t suggesting lineups that will barely score 4 runs a game.

By Shaun

January 2, 2009 2:42 PM | Link to this

74 Georgia grad, the problem with your analysis is that you are assuming what Francoeur did with RISP should count over two times as much as when he comes up without runners in scoring position.

Now, I’ll grant you that Francoeur should get some extra credit, if you will, for what he did with runners in scoring position. But should what he did then count over two times as much as what he did other times?

In 2007 he came to the plate 208 times with RISP. He came to the plate 488 times with either no runners on or with a runner only on first. In those 208 plate appearances, he did hit .341.

You are criticizing those who weigh on-base or out percentage and slugging percentage heavily when judging a player’s contributions at the plate, yet you want to say 208 plate appearances are over twice as valuable as his other plate appearances.

Last I checked, outs are pretty darn important in baseball, as are bases. And on-base and slugging measure both, which is why some view those stats as extremely important to judging what a player does at the plate.

By Efrim

January 2, 2009 2:42 PM | Link to this

Francoeur was an excellent hitter and run producer in 2007.

No, he wasn’t.

By DAP

January 2, 2009 2:44 PM | Link to this

anders bull yourself. unless chipper has been agreeing with you for a year, you have no point.

“the lure” hasnt mattered until this offseason anyways, since the braves havent had money to spend since time warner took over. and most of the time, they not only didnt have much to spend, but were cutting back.

any talk about “the lure” being gone has been premature until this offseason, because the braves really had very few chances to make competitive offers to big free agents.

p.s. almost every acquisition (trades, mostly) i can think of recently came with guys saying how excited they were to play for bobby cox and the braves.

By KC

January 2, 2009 2:50 PM | Link to this

RANDOM: “Francoeur simply was not an “excellent” hitter in 2007.”

2007: .293, 19 homers, 105 RBI, 40 doubles…

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

By Steve from OH

January 2, 2009 2:51 PM | Link to this

Also helps to get paid to micro manage stats til they’re coming out of your ears. Me, I’ll stick to the human angle and what my eyes are telling me. Is that okay with you?

Some of the stats are a bit much, I’ll give you that, but unless you can watch every inning of every game for every team played, I’ll stick to objective analysis.

74 Ga grad:

OBP and OPS are neither complicated nor wrong. The other stuff, like AVG, RISP, and even RBI can be useful, but only when a hitter has demonstrated the basic ability to not make outs and hit for power. Once those criteria have (even marginally) been met, we can start looking at more subjective metrics to “round out” our player, so to speak. But no amount of RBIs, RS, SB, etc will compensate for a sub-.300 (or even .310-.320) OBP. Period. The hitter’s #1 job is to not make outs, and hitters like that are just not good at not making outs.

When the Josh Andersons and Jeff Francoeurs (who, for some strange reason, I’m still holding out hope for) of the world are manning 2/3 of your outfield and are OPSing .750 and .650, you’re not going to win. Period.

And for the record, the Frenchman’s OPS was 3% better than the league average last season, which is perfectly acceptable (but not great by any means). That’s why people were ok with it and hoping for improvement this season. No one was getting ready to name their kids Jeffy Jr, but he wasn’t hurting the team. This year he killed us.

By Doc Holiday

January 2, 2009 2:53 PM | Link to this

DAP

I also respect chipper. Maddux, Chipper, Smoltz and Glavine are the only superstars that have played for atlanta (not for the money) in the last 2 decades, for a significant amount of time. Some might add AJ, but IMO he never looked as a complete star to me, he had power numbers for sometime, but to me, he is (was) a star, not a superstar (if you could make a difference between the 2.

By Steve from OH

January 2, 2009 2:55 PM | Link to this

But to whoever suggested Frenchy was an “excellent” hitter in ‘07, he wasn’t. He was average-at-best. Please refer to Shaun’s 2:42.

By Thrillhouse44

January 2, 2009 2:55 PM | Link to this

Just for the record I’ve also been saying this Chipper thing ain’t done. Anders

If this “Chipper thing” is done, will you come on here and loudly admit that you were wrong? Or will you disappear the way you have the past two Septembers?

By Shaun

January 2, 2009 2:59 PM | Link to this

Also helps to get paid to micro manage stats til they’re coming out of your ears. Me, I’ll stick to the human angle and what my eyes are telling me. Is that okay with you?

Exactly. Maybe for some just “sticking to the human angle and what their eyes are telling them” is just fine. But when you are running a team or trying to gain knowledge about players, you may want to rely on statistical evidence.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 2, 2009 2:59 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies Frenchy showed every indication he would be an average or perhaps slightly above average major leaguers

Correction: Francoeur was being looked at to be the future leader of the Braves. At no point during his development did I read anything about him being just a serviceable outfielder. He was brought up from AA because of his potential. Otherwise, the Braves would’ve yanked someone from Richmond.

74 Georgia grad

Thank you for breaking it down for these people. I didn’t have the energy to do it, but my sentiments exactly.

DAP *the first senerio is a player with a 1.000 OBP, and the second is a .000 OBP. the closer to 1.000, the better.

thats it and pretty basic. its the most fundamental thing to an offense. not making outs, and a great measure of how valuable a player is*

OBP is not even viable unless you hit in the top 3 spots. The 4-6 spots are mainly run producers. The only other thing I’ll add is that your #3 hitter should be a hybrid of both, scoring a lot of runs as well driving in a lot of runs.

By Shaun

January 2, 2009 3:06 PM | Link to this

RANDOM: “Francoeur simply was not an “excellent” hitter in 2007.”

KC: 2007: .293, 19 homers, 105 RBI, 40 doubles…

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

ME: Isn’t it funny how the same folks who criticize others for relying on a few stats themselves rely on only a few stats…highly context-dependent ones at that?

KC, what does a .293, 19 homer, 105 RBI, 40 doubles like tell us? It tells us the rate at which Francoeur got a hit in his non-walk, non-sac plate appearances. It tells us how many of two types of hits he got: homers and doubles. It tell us how many runs he drove in without telling us how often many opportunities he had to drive in runs or how easy or difficult it was for him to drive in those runs.

That line doesn’t tell us how many outs he cost the Braves. It doesn’t tell us how many bases he accrued. It doesn’t tell us how often he got on base. All of these are very important aspects of offense yet batting average, homers, RBI, and doubles don’t tell us about those things.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 2, 2009 3:06 PM | Link to this

DAP (http://www.bravesnewsworld.com/2005/03/01/tim-hudson-extension/)

This link is where I got my info.

By N8

January 2, 2009 3:07 PM | Link to this

Doc Holiday

While I agree with you about the “lack of fire” that haunted us in the past (mostly in the post-season), there is something to be said with letting your play on the field do the talking.

Chipper is right. The Braves won the division 14 years in a row, and NEVER talked about being the team to beat. They let the other teams chasing them say that the road to the NL East goes through Atlanta.

There’s a difference between being outspoken and arrogant (in not down right cocky), then being quietly confident in your ability to win. Which both Chipper and the past Braves teams did for 14 years in a row.

Chipper is right. Teams should WIN with class and LOSE with class. Unfortunately, for the past 3 seasons, the Braves have had to do the latter.

By Steve from OH

January 2, 2009 3:08 PM | Link to this

OBP is not even viable unless you hit in the top 3 spots. The 4-6 spots are mainly run producers. The only other thing I’ll add is that your #3 hitter should be a hybrid of both, scoring a lot of runs as well driving in a lot of runs.

This is the silliest thing I’ve read in quite some time. Getting on base and driving in runs aren’t mutually exclusive. But every single hitter should be able to not make outs. A walk is INFINITELY better than an out. And in case you haven’t noticed, base hits do count towards OBP.

By Shaun

January 2, 2009 3:13 PM | Link to this

OBP is not even viable unless you hit in the top 3 spots. The 4-6 spots are mainly run producers. The only other thing I’ll add is that your #3 hitter should be a hybrid of both, scoring a lot of runs as well driving in a lot of runs.

So, it’s okay for the 4-6 hitters to cost the team tons of outs? Guess what? Three outs and no baserunners is a scoreless inning. Anyone who realizes this (I’m assuming everyone here), should realize the importance of judging hitters and teams by on-base percentage.

Also, there’s the little fact that in the 100-plus years of baseball history, the teams with the highest on-base percentages tend to be the teams that score the most runs.

By KC

January 2, 2009 3:14 PM | Link to this

Random: As far as my “over-simplifying Francoeur’s problems/the solution…

There are many - MANY - examples in baseball of very good players (who were neither aged nor injured) having a terrible year; a season long slump that they simply couldn’t shake. And in the majority of these cases, the players bounce back the next year.

Just a few examples:

• Tim Hudson is the most recent example in a Braves uniform.

• Smoltz had problems in 94 (though not quite to the extent of Hudson or Frenchy).

• Clemens had a poor season in 93, but bounced right back.

• Mike Schmidt hit .251 with only 21 homers back in 78’, and hit 45 homeruns the next year.

• Mark McGwire hit .201 in 1991 (steroids and all)

Some people are talking as though it’ some fundamental flaw in Francoeur’s overall ability (such as his lack of plate discipline) that causes his problems in 07… leading them to the conclusion that he won’t be able to recover. But that makes no sense to me, given that these supposed flaws were present in his first 3 (very successful) seasons.

It is FAR more likely - nearly certain, in fact - that his problems were similar to those faced by all of the above players (and many more) in their worst seasons.

Often times, slumps are like quicksand. The more you try to do to get out of it, the worse your situation gets. He was never able to get his head straight and get out of it in 08.

Is it possible that he’ll never regain pre-2008 form? Sure, it’s possible. But I consider it highly unlikely. And I am willing to bet on that if you’re up for a friendly wager.

By DAP

January 2, 2009 3:15 PM | Link to this

jerald holcombe OBP is not even viable unless you hit in the top 3 spots. The 4-6 spots are mainly run producers. The only other thing I’ll add is that your #3 hitter should be a hybrid of both, scoring a lot of runs as well driving in a lot of runs.

totally 100% wrong. this shows a poor understanding of baseball.

it is true that high OBP guys usually hit a the top, and guys who have good power but not alot of on bae ability usually hit lower in the order, and its also true that #3 hitters are usually a good combo of both power and on base and are usually the best hitter on the team.

what is so incorrect about your statement that that OBP only matters for top of the order guys, and for 6, 7, 8 hitters it doesnt matter.

did you ever think that 6, 7, 8 hitter bat low because they arent high OBP guys and not vice versa? and, wouldnt it be great if every 6, 7, 8 hitter on your team suddenly became able to get on base like top end guys, making them basically all #3 type hitters?

OBP matter no matter where you hit in the lineup. it is improtant for a baseball player to have a good OBP.

By DAP

January 2, 2009 3:18 PM | Link to this

jerald holcomb

here is the sentence about the option from that article:

“The option in 2010 would be worth $12 million if exercised and carries a $1 million buyout, making the total package potentially worth $58 million.”

that doesnt say anything about a vesting option or anything about innings pitched. i believe the option is a straight-up mutual option, period.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 2, 2009 3:24 PM | Link to this

Jerald,

I wasn’t talking about what the Braves wanted Francoeur to become. I was talking about what his performance suggested, and that was a decent, everyday big leaguer and not a star.

The Braves’ brass was also convinced that Komminsk was going to be the next Dale Murphy, and we all know how that turned out.

If the front office elevates someone to stardom without evaluating whether he can play the game, then the front office needs some housecleaning.

You also wrote:

Me, I’ll stick to the human angle and what my eyes are telling me. Is that okay with you?

Fine. But that’s how the Braves evaluated Komminsk (and to a lesser extent, Francoeur).

He’s Roy Hobbs. Five tools. Cannon for an arm. Can hit the ball a mile. Graceful in the field. At some point, though, it’s also important to ask yourself — Does he understand the strike zone? Can he lay off unhittable pitches? Can he drive balls that aren’t in his wheelhouse? Does he make adjustments at the plate?

Your eyes can tell you some of that, and I actually give a lot more credit to the human element than some stats fans, but stats give you an objective way of telling if your eyes are deceivng you.

By Lew

January 2, 2009 3:29 PM | Link to this

Jerald-Dude, no matter how correct you are about Frenchy, you’ll never get the doom and gloomers to agree with you. Several of us have tried, but since he’ll never win an OBP or Slg% Crown (oh wait-there is NO such thing), he’ll never be acceptable to many. They DO offer Crowns for BA, HR and RBI, but they don’t count anymore. You can thank Fantasy Baseball for that one.

Random-Got to agree with you on that one. Lowe is worth what they offered for Burnett much more than Burnett is.

Mark-I didn’t see a reply to your question, though I might have missed it. Comcast in New England has the MLB channel and there is NO additional cost. They don’t have an HD channel and no one was sure if they would, but the visuals are great and they actually discussed some different topics-like The Roberto Clemente Award-thought that was nice for a change. I don’t have much interest in watching vintage games, but the channel should be better than having only ESPN. That is a certainty. No Chris Berman can’t be all bad.

By Steve from OH

January 2, 2009 3:30 PM | Link to this

Fangraphs recently did an article entitled “Is Schafer a future star?. They think he’s at least an above-average player, with a chance to be a superstar if he can hit lefties. They draw comparisons to Grady Sizemore, and talk about Schafer’s outstanding defense.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 2, 2009 3:32 PM | Link to this

Lew,

Happy New Year. I’m sure I qualify as a doom and gloomer to you, but that comment about Chris Berman was a gem.

By Anders

January 2, 2009 3:40 PM | Link to this

DAP

anders bull yourself. unless chipper has been agreeing with you for a year, you have no point

I never said Chipper agreed with me for a year? What are you talking about? I’ve been saying for more than a year the magic is gone. Now DOB, Chipper and apparently the rest of you are finally saying it.

p.s. almost every acquisition (trades, mostly) i can think of recently came with guys saying how excited they were to play for bobby cox and the braves.

Yep, and every acquisition by the Ynaks come with the guy saying how he’s wanted to play in pinstripes all his life - do you see the transparency in these things?

I’d ask you to think about when was the last time 4 or 5 guys the Braves actively sought turned their backs on the Braves in one off season - some for less money? Everything else is just words.

Plus you have Smoltz’s agents shopping for $ values. I know DOB tells us that’s just due diligence. But he also told us he had a good source who said Peavy wanted to come to the Braves and Furcal was looking forward to coming back to play for Bobby Cox and live in his house in Atlanta. How’d that turn out? Not saying DOB wasn’t told those things, just saying things aren’t always what they seem.

By Shaun

January 2, 2009 3:41 PM | Link to this

Is it possible that he’ll never regain pre-2008 form?

KC, well I hope he’s much better than .280/.320/.463, which is what he did pre-2008.

Francoeur has yet to show much plate discipline plus his power is not all that great for a corner outfielder. I think that’s why some people aren’t all that optimistic about Francoeur becoming a superstar.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 2, 2009 3:42 PM | Link to this

Braveheart Jerald, you could get away with that if you weren’t suggesting lineups that will barely score 4 runs a game

Did I suggest any lineups? I don’t think I did.

Shaun 74 Georgia grad, the problem with your analysis is that you are assuming what Francoeur did with RISP should count over two times as much as when he comes up without runners in scoring position

Okay, let’s go with it. In 2007, Francoeur’s avg leading off an inning was .308. His avg with noone on base was .285.

Steve from OH But to whoever suggested Frenchy was an “excellent” hitter in ‘07, he wasn’t. He was average-at-best*

In 2007, he was tied for 24th in batting at .293. 11th in RBIs with 105. And if I remember right, he led the majors in avg with RISP at .341. If that is your idea of “average”, then I suggest that you look at some of the stat sheets available and look at all the great players that fell short of Francoeur’s numbers that year.

By Anders

January 2, 2009 3:47 PM | Link to this

Thrillhouse

If this “Chipper thing” is done, will you come on here and loudly admit that you were wrong? Or will you disappear the way you have the past two Septembers?

I was here this past September. As a matter of fact I made it a point to be on the blog the whole afternoon of the last day of the season. Not sure if there is an archives type access to this blog but if there is maybe someone could share how it works so Thrillhouse can go and validate my presence here. I received many kudos for being here that week as well as the next. I hope you don’t view this as me being pompous again as all I’m doing is answering you calling me out.

I was away the last week of 2007 in Las Vegas and San Diego on business. That couldn’t be helped. I did return the very next day however.

BTW- If the “Chipper Thing” does happen do I have your word not to call me pompous for reminding you of my thoughts?

By Lew

January 2, 2009 3:47 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies-Happy New Year, to you, too. Nah, you’re just confused about Francoeur-otherwise you’re one of the good guys. Didn’t you read earlier? I’M the jerk-and smarmy and thuggish. Maybe I should go cry or scourge myself. Do you have some thumb screws I could borrow? Maybe some sackcloth and ashes? Anyone have an extra Iron Maiden? Somehow I doubt the Blog Ref would be satisfied if I just listened to Piece of Mind or Number of the Beast real loud. I feel so bad.

Steve-I saw Shafer play center last year (with Anderson in right) during Spring Training. They constituted one of the best defensive outfields I’ve seen in some time. I think they had Blanco in left at the time. Shafer will have you forgetting a good bit of Andruw’s prowess. The Kid is exceptional coming in on balls and plays deeper than Andruw did.

By Steve from OH

January 2, 2009 3:48 PM | Link to this

Jerald-Dude, no matter how correct you are about Frenchy, you’ll never get the doom and gloomers to agree with you. Several of us have tried, but since he’ll never win an OBP or Slg% Crown (oh wait-there is NO such thing), he’ll never be acceptable to many. They DO offer Crowns for BA, HR and RBI, but they don’t count anymore. You can thank Fantasy Baseball for that one.

Once again, I feel that you’re showing a profound misunderstanding of so-called “stat-heads,” and, it seems, fantasy baseball as well. OBP is the base skill a good hitter needs to have. Without it, a hitter is probably hurting his team. Jeff’s 2007 OBP was marginally acceptable, and his RBI/HR/BA totals were good, so (in my eyes), he was an acceptable player. Not great, maybe not even good, but not hurting our team by any means. And it’s not our fault that there’s no OBP crown. I blame Murry Chass and Ozzie Guillen. And I don’t even need to talk about Jeff’s 2008. We all like home runs and RBI as much as the next guy, but we know that there aren’t enough HR/RBI in the world (realistically) to compensate for a sub-.300 OBP. That’s really not that complicated or outrageous, is it?

And I an NOT a doom-and-gloomer. J’Accuse, Monsieur!

By Shaun

January 2, 2009 3:56 PM | Link to this

Several of us have tried, but since he’ll never win an OBP or Slg% Crown (oh wait-there is NO such thing), he’ll never be acceptable to many. They DO offer Crowns for BA, HR and RBI, but they don’t count anymore. You can thank Fantasy Baseball for that one.

Really? Every fantasy league I’ve played in overvalues batting average, homers, RBI and undervalues OBP and SLG…if they even include them. What kind of fantasy leagues are you playing in where they count the stats that are actually important in real life?

Do they offer anything if a player leads the league in homers or RBI? Do they even give a player anything if he wins the batting title? I’m not so sure. They may give him some sort of trophy. I’m assuming you mean the triple crown. But does the fact that players who lead the league in AVG-HR-RBI get recognized actually mean that those are the most important offensive stats? This goes to show how powerful tradition is.

By athensmatt

January 2, 2009 4:00 PM | Link to this

My favorite performance of any Brave in recent memory is when Jair Jurrjens was asked by a reporter if he was excited about facing fellow Curacao native Andruw Jones. His reply was “Yeah, and I’m also excited about striking him out.”

Jurrjens went on to strike him out THREE TIMES that game.

By Shaun

January 2, 2009 4:02 PM | Link to this

Okay, let’s go with it. In 2007, Francoeur’s avg leading off an inning was .308. His avg with noone on base was .285.

His average with no one on was .285 with a .321 on-base. That’s not good.

His average with a runner on first was .235 with a .297 on-base. That’s worse.

Batting avearge only tells us how often he got a hit in his non-walk, non-sac plate appearances. It doesn’t tell us how many bases he gained or how often he avoided outs.

By Thrillhouse44

January 2, 2009 4:05 PM | Link to this

BTW- If the “Chipper Thing” does happen do I have your word not to call me pompous for reminding you of my thoughts? Anders

It depends on how you remind us, dude. If you check your attitude, I absolutely will.

I forgot that you were here this past September - respect for that.

I never said Chipper agreed with me for a year? What are you talking about? I’ve been saying for more than a year the magic is gone. Now DOB, Chipper and apparently the rest of you are finally saying it.

DAP and I pointed out earlier that you were not the only to say that some of the lure was gone. Your snarky reply was that you had boasted of this for over a year. I believe that is what DAP was referencing.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 2, 2009 4:05 PM | Link to this

Also, there’s the little fact that in the 100-plus years of baseball history, the teams with the highest on-base percentages tend to be the teams that score the most runs Shaun

really? Then just to be curious, what was the OBP of the 1918 White Sox?

what is so incorrect about your statement that that OBP only matters for top of the order guys, and for 6, 7, 8 hitters it doesnt matter DAP

You have the amazing ability to not see what you are reading. Reread what I said and you see that I said that the 4-6 hitting are MAINLY for driving in runs. Of course, you would like for them to get on base, but getting the runs in in front of them is what matters most. Getting walked is not what the 4-6 hitters are looking for. And please, if you don’t agree with me, then that’s great. Don’t agree, but don’t question a man’s ability to understand the game. I’ve been devouring Braves baseball since 1966 and even managed 3 consecutive Little League teams with different players each year to a 55-3 record and 3 district titles. I do know at least a little about baseball.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 2, 2009 4:07 PM | Link to this

Lew,

Nope. Fresh out of thumb screws. Not sure if they have them on eBay, either!

And I for one am looking forward to seeing Schafer play next year. I hope he’s not completely overwhelmed by major league pitching early on, otherwise he’ll probably start the year in Gwinnett.

I’m not expecting a Jay Bruce-style debut. But hey, if he hits as well as Gregor Blanco did coming out of ST 2008, he’ll probably win the CF job. And he’s someone who does show the potential to be a special player.

By Shaun

January 2, 2009 4:17 PM | Link to this

Batting Average vs. On-Base Percentage: Bringing Data to the Debate

From the author’s work and some comments he left on his site:

“…36% of the variance in team wins is explained by team on-base percentage, while only 22% of the variance in team wins is explained by batting average.”

“I wanted to show how one statistic, on-base percentage, is more important (in terms of helping a team win a game) than the traditional gold standard statistic in baseball: batting average.”

“So I looked at this year’s data and plotted each team’s batting average and on-base percentage against their total wins, so that I could see how much correlation there is. Each dot on the scatterplot represents one baseball team’s mark so far this year. What I found is that as I suspected, batting average isn’t as good a predictor of winning as on-base percentage.”

Notice he’s not saying on-base percentage is the only important stat or that it’s the only one anyone should look at or even that batting average should be ignored. He’s simply stating on-base percentage correlates with winning better than batting average.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 2, 2009 4:18 PM | Link to this

here is the sentence about the option from that article:

“The option in 2010 would be worth $12 million if exercised and carries a $1 million buyout, making the total package potentially worth $58 million.”

that doesnt say anything about a vesting option or anything about innings pitched. i believe the option is a straight-up mutual option, period DAP

I don’t know how you could miss it, but you did. I’ll reprint it in it’s entirety.

As expected, the Braves inked their new ace Tim Hudson to an extension in the nick of time. With Hudson’s self-imposed March 1st deadline for getting a deal done only hours away, the pitcher signed on the dotted line. What was originally rumored to be a three-year extension with two option years ended up being a four-year extension with one option year (a mutual option tied to the number of innings he logs during the 2009 season).

After making $6.75 million this year, Hudson will pull down an average of almost $12 million a year from 2006 through 2009, a total of $47 million over four years. He’ll take home a cool $10 million as a signing bonus immediately, followed by $4 million in 2006, $6 million in 2007, and $13 million each in 2008 and 2009. The option in 2010 would be worth $12 million if exercised and carries a $1 million buyout, making the total package potentially worth $58 million.

By KC

January 2, 2009 4:19 PM | Link to this

Shaun: I like your selective statistical argument.

What you didn’t mention about his pre-2008 performance was the fact that he drove in over 100 runs in each of his first 2 seasons, and if you project his rookie season out to a full year’s work, he did it in 2005 as well.

In 05, 06, 07 combined, he had 1,550 at-bats. If you divide that 640 at-bats (a typical number for him in a full season)… here’s what he averaged over his first 3 seasons:

.280, 26 homers, 105 RBI, 35 doubles.

Again, I’m available for wagering on his 2009 performance.

By Anders

January 2, 2009 4:21 PM | Link to this

Thrillhouse

Come on guy. I take a lot of crap on here. I get that my remarks wrankle you guys but I get 10 times what I give as I should being that it’s a Braves blog. I’ve developed a thick skin on here. I do get sarcastic and like to take shots at guys when I get the chance, but who doesn’t? I mean, have you met the blogmaster?

Anyway, I don’t name call (I was called a D..bag by either you or DAP, I forget which), I don’t do the north/south thing and I stay away from political stuff. So I think I play fair and will continue to do so.

For the record I think you and DAP have been pretty fair with me in the past too. We have our run in’s but that’s what fans do. No problem with that from this end.

By AZBravoFan

January 2, 2009 4:25 PM | Link to this

Someone mentioned the Jurrjens moment of striking out Andruw 3 times. My favorite Jurrjens moment was his first game at Shea when he had what was should clearly have been called strike 3 to end an inning, then briefly lost his cool and ended up walking in a couple runs. Shea was going nuts, the game was slipping away. Then after some visits from Roger and Mac and Chipper, he settled down, got out of the inning without any further damage, and went on to win the game. I think he grew up a whole lot that inning.

By Shaun

January 2, 2009 4:25 PM | Link to this

really? Then just to be curious, what was the OBP of the 1918 White Sox?

Jerald Holcombe, the 1918 White Sox finished 6th. They ranked 4th in on-base and 6th in runs.

Maybe you are thinking of the 1919 White Sox, who threw the World Series. They ranked 2nd in OBP and 1st in runs.

Or maybe you’re thinking of the “Hitless Wonders,” the 1906 White Sox. They finished 5th in OBP and 3rd in runs. However those rankings are somewhat deceiving. Their OBP was .295 in a league that posted a .303 on-base. They scored 3.7 runs per game; the league average was 3.67 runs per game. So they were basically an average scoring team with an average on-base percentage. They won because of pitching.

By Shaun

January 2, 2009 4:33 PM | Link to this

What you didn’t mention about his pre-2008 performance was the fact that he drove in over 100 runs in each of his first 2 seasons, and if you project his rookie season out to a full year’s work, he did it in 2005 as well.

KC, yes, but we all know RBI are highly context-dependent. In other words, he drove in that many runs mostly because of the lineup he was in and the playing time he received.

I’ll wager Francoeur will be around the projections found here or here

I’ll put these projections up against most other projections, especially those made by just eyeballing.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 2, 2009 4:36 PM | Link to this

His average with no one on was .285 with a .321 on-base. That’s not good Shaun

I’d like to have a whole team of .285 hitters

1n 2007: leading off .308, bases loaded .364, scoring position with 2 outs. .333, none on .285, runners on .303, RISP .341 What else do you want!

By Thrillhouse44

January 2, 2009 4:44 PM | Link to this

Anders, gotcha and I apologize for the d bag comment.

By Steve from OH

January 2, 2009 4:46 PM | Link to this

I’d like to have a whole team of .285 hitters

You’re missing the point, Aristotle.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 2, 2009 4:50 PM | Link to this

Shaun

Do me a favor and write down those projections you have for Francoeur in 2009 and lets see what happens. It’ll be a hoot. One things for certain, I’ve never seen a projection pan out to anything close to what really happens. The only reality here is that some of us think the Jeff will bounce back while others like yourself are non-believers. It’ll be fun to see who eats the crow on this one.

By Steve from OH

January 2, 2009 5:00 PM | Link to this

It’ll be fun to see who eats the crow on this one.

No, it won’t. Either Jeff exceeds expectations and everyone will be happy, because we’ll likely do halfway decent, or Jeff stinks up the joint, in which case everyone will be sad because we’re likely to struggle. No one takes pleasure in watching players fail.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 2, 2009 5:22 PM | Link to this

IMO, it’s somewhat pointless to make predictions about what Francoeur’s going to do in 2009. If he comes out of the gate strong, we’ll be happy, as Steve said. If he doesn’t, he may be out of the everyday lineup before the All Star break.

If he reaches KC’s projections, a full season with 29 HR, 35 2B would be a very respectable comeback, even with a low OBP.

If he plays more like Bill James and ZIPs predict, he probably won’t be out there every day. If in mid-June he has 6 or 7 HR, 10-12 2B and an average in the low .260s (considering his poor on-base skills), he’ll be benched or platooned.

If Schafer plays as he’s expected to — and heck, if Blanco performs against major leaguers the way has in winter ball — even if the Braves don’t get another bat, Diaz, Blanco and Schafer would be more productive everyday players than the projections of Francoeur that Shaun provided.

Blanco surprised me last year with his patience. If the power he’s shown this winter isn’t an anomaly, he’ll be hard to keep out of the lineup. And he may keep Schafer in the minors for awhile if the Braves do get another OF bat.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 2, 2009 5:24 PM | Link to this

• No one takes pleasure in watching players fail* Steve from OH

Really? Hard to tell with so many of these posts.

I’d like to have a whole team of .285 hitters

You’re missing the point, Aristotle Steve from OH

Don’t think so Hypocrates.

By DAP

January 2, 2009 5:25 PM | Link to this

anders I never said Chipper agreed with me for a year?

youre original statement was that chipper agreed with you, doofus. and i said…duh, everyone agrees with that obvious statement. and you said you had been saying it for a year…well guess what? chipper hasnt so he doesnt agree with you. you have no point.

By DAP

January 2, 2009 5:26 PM | Link to this

anders sorry i called you a doofus. that was uncalled for.

By nolie

January 2, 2009 5:32 PM | Link to this

POSNANSKI ON HOF CHOICES

One knock you hear all the time about certain Hall of Fame candidates is that they were just good players who assembled impressive career numbers simply by sticking around for a long time. I have always thought that undersells longevity, the ability to stay healhy, the ability to grow old gracefully, which is probably the most underrated talent in the business.

Mickey Mantle couldn’t do it. He only once hit 30-plus homers after he turned 30.

Sandy Koufax couldn’t do it. He retired with arm problems at 30 after winning the Cy Young three out of four years.

Don Drysdale couldn’t do it. He won five games after he turned 31.

Ryne Sandberg was a thoroughly ineffective player after he turned 34 (.250/.313/.419) and Jimmie Foxx only hit 15 homers after his 34th birthday. Rogers Hornsby was a part-time player after he turned 33 and Gary Carter plugged along as a part-time catcher the last four years of his career. These are some of the greatest ever, Hall of Famers, but they were not especially useful after they passed their prime. Baseball is an unforgiving game — you can’t live off your name for very long. You have to perform or you will be discarded, and those players who perform long enough to put up the huge numbers, well, while most people think they are overrated, I tend to believe the opposite is probably true — they are probably underrated, under-appreciated for being successful after their youth has faded, and their bodies ache, and their stuff has gone, and their bats have slowed.

Still, I understand the point — when talking about a Hall of Famer you want to start with a dominant peak. So, I thought it would be worth looking at the core years of some Hall of Fame candidates to determine who were the most dominant players over the heart of their careers. The question then is: How many years make up the heart of a career? Three years, clearly, is not enough. Take a look at the best three-year lines of a couple of Pittsburgh right fielders:

Player A: .327/.390/.546, 121 2Bs, 27 3Bs, 76 HRs, 318 runs, 299 RBIs, 57 SBs, 150 OPS+. Player B: .323/.372/.526, 75 2Bs, 33 3Bs, 70 HRs, .282 runs, 286 RBIs, 18 SBs, 156 OPS+.

They both won Gold Gloves all three years. They both were known for having amazing arms. They both played in pretty low run scoring environments. So you probably know that one has to be Roberto Clemente and the other has to be Dave Parker, but which is which? When you reduce it down to just those three years, it’s pretty tough to pick one from the other.

What if you just looked at the five best years?

Player A: .320/.379/.546, 198 2Bs, 41 3Bs, 134 HRs, 481 runs, 525 RBIs, 70 SBs, 150 OPS+. Player B: .341/.389/.535, 147 2Bs, 50 3Bs, 106 HRs, 490 runs, 496 RBIs, 29 SBs, 155 OPS+.

You could probably guess which player is which based on those numbers … but it would still be a guess. Those numbers are awfully, awfully close. It would be hard to justify putting one of those players in the Hall of Fame but not the other.

So: How about we look over their best 10 years? Yes, over 10 years, it becomes a little bit clearer:

Player A: 306/.356/.501, 346 2Bs, 58 3Bs, 233 HRs, 867 runs, 996 RBIs, 115 SBs, 134 OPS+. Player B: .334/.381/.514, 250 2Bs, 102 3Bs, 178 HRs, 879 runs, 840 RBIs, 55 SBs, 150 OPS+.

Now, you can see (assuming you look at the right numbers) that Player B was quite a bit better. Player A has bigger counting numbers in some ways — more homers, more RBIs, almost 100 more doubles — but it’s clear that Player B has a significant advantage in on-base percentage and slugging percentage. And that sizable difference in OPS+ should tell you that Player B is Roberto Clemente, and Player A is Dave Parker.

And so, I thought that looking it might be worth look at the players 10 best years to determine just how great he was … when he was great.

Pitchers:

To give you the ideal, here are Tom Seaver’s best 10 seasons — and remember Seaver was the highest percentage vote getter in the history of the Hall of Fame:

Tom Seaver: 185-91, .670 Win%, 2.44 ERA,147 ERA+, 2,181 Ks, 707 walks, 146 CGs, 38 SHOs, 1.049 WHIP

That’s awfully good. Now, let’s look at four starters on this year’s ballot:

Bert Blyleven: 166-126, .568 Win%, 2.82 ERA, 137 ERA+, 2063 Ks, 684 walks, 162 CGs, 46 SHOs, 1.126 WHIP

Jack Morris: 181-102, .640 Win%, 3.49 ERA, 118 ERA+, 1642 Ks, 860 walks, 127 CGs, 20 SHOs, 1.226 WHIP

Tommy John: 157-86, .646 Win%, 2.94 ERA, 125 ERA+, 1063 Ks, 508 walks, 94 CGs, 31 SHOs, 1.187 WHIP

David Cone: 154-86, .642 Win%, 3.12 ERA, 135 ERA+, 2070 Ks, 820 walks, 47 CGs, 20 SHOs, 1.201 WHIP

Well, as expected, Morris has the most wins — he averaged 18.1 wins per year in his best 10 seasons, he’s right there with Seaver in victories. Of course, everyone here knows how I feel about wins as a statistic, but let’s put that aside for now — Morris is the closest thing to Seaver when it comes to wins per year. So if victories are your thing — and for many voters, victories are indeed the best way to judge a pitcher — then Morris should get the vote.

But even just looking at victories, Morris does not have the best winning percentage — John and Cone both won a higher percentage of their decisions over the 10 years. So there is that.

Then there are, to me, the numbers that matter most: Blyleven has the best ERA, the best ERA+, the best strikeout-to-walk ratio, the best WHIP. He also threw many more complete games than any of the other candidates (and that includes Seaver) and he threw WAY more shutouts than any of them (again, including Seaver). If I was voting for a 10-year Cy Young among the four Hall of candidates, Blyleven would be my runaway winner. And Jack Morris, even with the most wins, would probably finish fourth out of four because he’s last in those four categories.*

*This is not to downplay Morris’ Hall of Fame case, which is most subtle. The case is that he won a lot of games AND he pitched one of the greatest postseason games ever. It’s a legitimate case. I have written so many negative things over the years about Morris’ career that I probably have left the impression that I do not believe he was worth a damn. That’s not true. He was an excellent pitcher who you would love to have on your staff; and he was remarkable in that Game 7 of the World Series. I just happen to believe that he was a beneficiary of circumstance — he played for a lot of high scoring teams — and there are a number of pitchers out there I would put in the Hall of Fame first.

OK, does any of this tell us anything? Well, I think so. It tells us that Blyleven’s peak was VERY high in every possible way except wins. Should he have won more games? Maybe. But it’s worth noting that his 10 peak years were for the early 1970s Twins, the 1977 Texas Rangers, the 1978 Pittsburgh Pirates, the 1984 and ‘85 Cleveland Indians (plus a little ‘85 Twins in there) and the 1989 California Angels. Combined, those teams were 58 games under .500 when Blyleven didn’t get a decision and not one of them won a division title. I guess, you could blame Blyleven for that too. But the way I look at it: It’s utterly preposterous that Blyleven is not in the Hall.

Morris — I think you go with the Denny Green line: He is what we knew he was. He gave up hits, walks, runs, but stayed in games long enough to allow his outstanding teams (884-681 record) to score enough runs to win. His teams won 124 more games than they lost when Morris did not get a decision.

I think Tommy John really does deserve a good look. Not only does he have a pretty solid peak — great winning percentage, 125 ERA+ is good, lots of shutouts — but he had five other years that were good enough to throw in there as well. The guy DID win 288 games in his career, after all. Add in Tommy John surgery*, I think you could make a strong Hall of Fame case.

*If Bruce Sutter can get in largely for “popularizing” the split-fingered fastball, then John certainly should get big points for being the first to come back from the surgery named for him.

David Cone was very good for those 10 years. But that pretty much makes up the entirety of his career.

Hitters.

Again, to give you an ideal, here are Willie Mays’ 10 best seasons:

Willie Mays: .320/.395/.612, 281 2Bs, 96 3Bs, 411 HRs, 1,195 runs, 1,123 RBIs, 198 SBs, 743 walks, 693 Ks, 170 OPS+.

And the Hall of Fame nominees.

Mark McGwire: .277/.409/.632, 199 2Bs, 6 3Bs, 478 HRs, 931 runs, 1,122 RBIs, 9 SBs, 1,023 walks, 1,191 Ks, 174 OPS+.

Comment: I have to admit — I had no idea McGwire had 10 years quite that good. In the past, I have probably underrated McGwire as a player. I think like other people who were disturbed by the steroid deal, I WANTED to underrate McGwire as a player. But time fades, and we are getting a fuller picture of the era … and a .409 on-base percentage, a .632 slugging percentage and 478 homers over 10 years tells a compelling story.

Rickey Henderson: .296/.407/.452, 260 2Bs, 43 3Bs, 157 HRs, 1164 runs, 561 RBIs, 838 SBs, 973 walks, 702 Ks, 142 OPS+.

Comment: He had another five years that were just as good. Great peak. Great career. Great everything.

The other day, some brilliant readers were having an interesting discussion revolving around how you would pick your all-time baseball team. Most people would pick it by position:

C: Johnny Bench (09/09/09) 3B: George Brett (or Mike Schmidt, but we are based in KC here) SS: Honus Wagner 2B: Joe Morgan (or Rogers Hornsby if you want that jerk on your team) 1B: Lou Gehrig LF: Ted Williams (or Barry Bonds, if you like) CF: Willie Mays RF: Babe Ruth

Well, what would happen if we picked by batting order? I realize that this is a bit silly because nobody cares who the best sixth, seventh or eighth hitters in baseball history are. But let’s try it anyway:

Batting 1st: Rickey Henderson (LF) Batting 2nd: Joe Morgan (2B) Batting 3rd: Babe Ruth (RF) Batting 4th: Lou Gehrig (1B) Batting 5th: Johnny Bench (C) Batting 6th: Garry Maddox (CF) Batting 7th: Brooks Robinson (3B) Batting 8th: Ozzie Smith (SS)

Well, we had to make several moves — obviously replaced Rickey for Ted Williams at the top of the lineup. Were able to keep Morgan, Gehrig, Ruth and Bench by hitting them 2-3-4-5. But after that, we can’t hit Willie Mays sixth, so we’re going with Garry Maddox’s defense (and he hit sixth for much of his career). We can’t hit Brett or Schmidt seventh, so we go with Brooks Robinson and the glovework. And we obviously cannot hit Honus Wagner eighth — though he was by all accounts a wonderful guy and probably would hit wherever you put him — so we’ll go with Ozzie. I suspect that first team would win, assuming you could keep all those egos in line.

Jim Rice: .308/.361/.532, 286 2Bs, 65 3Bs, 305 HRs, 949 runs, 1092 RBIs, 49 SBs, 482 walks, 1,028 Ks, 137 OPS+.

Comment: Rice’s 10 best years are probably better than anyone left on the ballot. You know his case: He was, for the heart of his career, a .308 hitter who averaged 30 homers per year, more than 100 RBIs, an impressive .532 slugging percentage. You know his flaws: He put up the bulk of those numbers at Fenway Park when it was a brilliant hitters park; he did not walk; he does not add to his case with his base running, his defense or his general attitude.

A couple of weeks ago, I went through how I think the Hall of Fame voters go about electing a candidate. Rice will probably get elected this year, and there is a precedent: He has a very similar case to Tony Perez.

Their career numbers:

Perez: .279/.341/.462 with 2,732 hits, 505 doubles, 79 triples, 379 homers, 1,272 runs, 1,652 RBIs, 122 OPS+. Rice: .298/.352/.502 with 2,452 hits, 373 doubles, 79 triples, 382 homers, 1,249 runs, 1,423 RBIs, 128 OPS+.

Perez had a longer career which explains the better counting numbers. But Rice was (I think) a better hitter, even considering Fenway Park. Perez had a reputation for being the guy you wanted at the plate with the winning run on base. Rice has a reputation for being feared, a reputation that has been turned inside out a hundred times but is still around. Neither ran well, neither added much with their defense. I think it’s close.

Now for me, personally, Perez wins because he was the glue for the Big Red Machine. But I think you could argue either way.*

*You could also argue, as many would, that neither belong in the Hall of Fame.

Don Mattingly: .314/.364/.489, 379 2Bs, 14 3Bs, 206 HRs, 874 runs, 975 RBIs, 12 SBs, 499 walks, 357 Ks, 134 OPS+.

Dale Murphy: .277/.362/.502, 269 2Bs, 33 3Bs, 314 HRs, 954 runs, 933 RBIs, 124 SBs, 761 walks, 1,214 Ks, 134 OPS+.

Dave Parker: .306/.356/.501, 346 3Bs, 58 3Bs, 233 HRs, 867 runs, 996 RBIs, 115 SBs, 465 walks, 935 Ks, 134 OPS+.

Tim Raines: .306/.397/.446, 272 2Bs, 76 3Bs, 110 HRs, 967 runs, 599 RBIs, 524 SBs, 811 walks, 537 Ks, 134 OPS+.

Mo Vaughn: .296/.385/.532, 256 2Bs, 10 3Bs, 321 HRs, 830 runs, 1,017 RBIs, 28 SBs, 685 walks, 1,364 Ks, 134 OPS+

Comment: Wow, major log jam at 134 OPS+ — I guess this is just about where the line for staying on the Hall of Fame ballot is drawn. Ten years, 134 OPS+, you get to stay around (though Mo Vaughn probably will not).

Raines is, to me, clearly the best of the group. He has the best on-base percentage, which is the most important thing, and of course he was a remarkable base stealer. Maybe once Rickey gets in this year the voters can take a serious look at Raines, who was really the next-best thing.

Dale Murphy has the Gold Gloves in center field and the two MVP awards. Don Mattingly has the Gold Gloves at first base and the MVP award. More to the point, though: There are officially six categories listed on the Hall of Fame ballot that voters are supposed to consider. They are:

1. The player’s record (statistical record, I’m sure)
2. Playing ability
3. Integrity
4. Sportsmanship
5. Character
6. Contribution to his team(s)

It’s pretty remarkable that THREE of the six categories are integrity, sportsmanship and character. I mean, those three mean, more or less, the same thing.

Integrity: The quality of being honest and having strong moral principles. Sportsmanship: Sportsmanlike conduct such as honesty, fairness, courtesy, etc. Character: Qualities of honesty, courage or the like; integrity.

Everyone has to judge for themselves how much to consider these things. I think most voters feel (and should feel) very uncomfortable judging others on these things. But it should be said: If the original intent of the Hall of Fame was to elect players based largely on their integrity, sportsmanship and character then it is indeed tough to vote for Mark McGwire. And it should boost the cases of Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly.

Of course, if original intent of the Hall of Fame was to elect players based largely on their integrity, sportsmanship and character then how would they explain electing Ty Cobb first ballot, with a higher percentage than any other player including Babe Ruth and Honus Wagner? My guess is: This was all a bunch of bull.

Andre Dawson: .294/.337/.511, 292 2Bs, 57 3Bs, 268 HRs, 811 runs, 922 RBIs, 194 SBs, 348 walks, 780 Ks, 131 OPS+.

Comment: He was a Gold Glove center fielder and right fielder, a power hitter, a base stealer, an MVP and a class act. But that dadgum on-base percentage … the Dawson vote is all about if you can get past the basic concept that getting on base is the most important part of the offensive game, and Dawson just wasn’t very good at that.

Harold Baines: .298/.363/.482, 269 2Bs, 30 3Bs, 215 HRs, 728 runs, 931 RBIs, 23 SBs, 567 walks, 744 RBIs, 127 OPS+.

Mark Grace: .309/.372/.413, 373 2Bs, 34 3Bs, 125 HRs, 843 runs, 820 RBIs, 49 SBs, 769 walks, 413 Ks, 127 OPS+.

Alan Trammell: .302/.369/.557, 293 2Bs, 30 3Bs, 145 HRs, 830 runs, 710 RBIs, 168 SBs, 546 walks, 519 Ks, 126 OPS+.

Matt Williams: .278/.326/.508, 241 2Bs, 27 3Bs, 300 HRs, 774 runs, 960 RBIs, 43 SBs, 352 walks, 994 Ks, 122 OPS+

Comment: Obviously Trammell is in a different category from the other three because he was a Gold Glove shortstop. Still, he’s right there with some pretty great offensive players. Trammell had nine terrific offensive years, which is more than almost every shortstop in the Hall of Fame right now. The guy, perhaps more than Blyleven or anyone else on the ballot, is a victim of circumstance. He should have won the ‘87 MVP but didn’t. He could have won the ‘84 MVP, but didn’t. In his prime, he was not as good a fielder as Ozzie or as good a hitter as Ripken,* but you could argue that NOBODY EVER was as good a fielder as Ozzie, and Bill James ranks Cal Ripken as the third-best shortstop ever. So those are tough comparisons. Also, Trammell got hurt late in his career so the memory many have of him is as a part-time player from 1991-1996.

*In fact, Trammell’s bat is much closer to Cal Ripken’s than I suspected. From 1982-1993 — Ripken’s prime, and the years of his consecutive game streak — Ripken punched up a 121 OPS+. Trammell’s OPS+ over that exact same stretch was 120. And if you want to cherry pick even more, during the second half of the 1980s — 1986-1990 — Trammell put up 126 Win Shares to Ripken’s 119.

Now, these are unfair comparisons — Ripken played about 400 more games during the 12-year stretch (about two and a half full seasons), and the absurd Win Shares argument ignores that Ripken was at his best in 1983, ‘84 and ‘91. There is no doubt that Ripken was measurably better than Trammell. Still … if Ripken is legendary, Trammell is pretty great himself.

It’s interesting to me that at their best, Harold Baines and Mark Grace put up the same OPS+. I remember once being in a minor league press box in Charlotte with Jimmy Piersall, who was some sort of roving instructor for the Chicago Cubs then. He was, as you may have guessed, an odd duck, and at some point one of the writers in the press box asked what the heck was wrong with Mark Grace. The writer had Grace on his rotisserie team, of course, and he really wanted a bit more power out of the guy.

Well, Piersall went ape. He started screaming about how this was what was wrong with society, how Mark Grace was a great hitter, he was hitting .310, and it was ludicrous for anyone to question him, and it was especially ludicrous for fat people who had never swung a bat to question him, and it was ESPECIALLY ludicrous for fat people who sat up in a press box and had never swung a bat and had never done anything in their lives except write stupid stories that nobody read to question that. And anyway, finally, he asked an open question to anyone in the box: What do you think YOU would hit in the Big Leagues?

At which point the official scorer said: “Oh about .340.”

At which point Jimmy Piersall exploded into 10,000 tiny pieces. This entry was posted on Friday, January 2nd, 2009 at 2:43 pm. Categories: Baseball.

By KC

January 2, 2009 5:33 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies: Just to clarify… I didn’t project anything for Francour in 09. I just pointed out that his 05-07 numbers averaged out to about 26 homers, 105 RBI, and 35 doubles per year.

I’m not ready to predict those numbers exactly for Frenchy, but he’s certainly capable of them.

I WOULD bet money that he’ll hit at least around .270 (probably higher), with at least 15-20 homers, 90 RBI, and 30+ doubles. I’m up for that wager.

By Billy Pilgrim

January 2, 2009 5:33 PM | Link to this

Shaun Thanks for linking the ZiPS projections, I hadn’t seen this year’s batch yet.

The most depressing part of Francoeur’s projection is that fancy stat “AB”

I hope that common sense will prevail over giving 600 ABs to Francoeur if he fails to rebound.

By Lew

January 2, 2009 5:55 PM | Link to this

Steve and Shaun-Yeah. I know. You already told me.

By Steve from OH

January 2, 2009 6:06 PM | Link to this

Lew-sorry. People start talking 100 RBI and I get all excited, you know how it is.

By Roach

January 2, 2009 6:11 PM | Link to this

Whatever happened to the days where players were judged on getting a hit 3 out of 10 times??? Now its you can get a hit 2 out of 10 times but you better walk two times as well….heck with that get a hit 3 out of 10 times much better than get a hit 2 out of 10 and then walk two other times

By Bill

January 2, 2009 6:14 PM | Link to this

A jones is so damn bad the Dodgers want to pay him not to show up and let him become a free agent. Please dear Lord don’t let the Braves get that $#@* back. We have his clone in RF.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 2, 2009 6:18 PM | Link to this

Roach, (6:11)

Wrong. Making outs seven out of 10 times is worse than making outs six out of 10 times. Pretty much always, the way I figure.

By ncscoots

January 2, 2009 6:36 PM | Link to this

Somebody should remind fangraphs that Grady Sizemore STILL can’t hit lefties. I’d say he’s managed to compensate, and Schafer may be able to do the same.

The hitter’s #1 job is to not make outs, and hitters like that are just not good at not making outs.

Overall, I’d agree with that. But not necessarily for each different lineup slot, and not necessarily for all game situations. Middle-order guys have a different hierarchy, for example. Job 1 is to produce runs; failing that, don’t make an out. There are also game situations in which a walk is as bad as an out, in terms of furthering the process of scoring. I’m saying that not making outs is a good thing and a skill to be valued, but it is not the only way for a player to produce value.

I’m basically a semi-stathead, LOL. I daresay I’ve spent as much time as Shaun, say, in researching sabermetric data and its value for evaluating players and their skills. That kind of quantitative analysis appeals to me, on a lot of levels, and I’ve always cottoned to the idea that truth, as it is, may be different from truth, as it is perceived.

But I’m also an old guy :-), and the three stats still have meaning for me. No matter how demeaned those stats may be (non-sac-non-whatever situations, context-dependent, and so forth), the guy who goes .300/30/100 is gonna get my vote, and long before I start thinking about his VORP, BABIP, OPS+, or Win Shares. Because I know, looking at that line, that this is a GOOD PLAYER, regardless of the results of a deeper and more definitive analysis. Park-adjust that, if you wish.

Have I been sufficiently perched on the fence with this, LOL? I guess I’m saying that there are lots of ways to statistically evaluate a player. There is no Golden Stat. And I’m probably just enough of a dinosaur to think that the three stats aren’t totally antiquated. At least, to me.

By mr baseball

January 2, 2009 6:38 PM | Link to this

Arguing with the modern day statheads is like arguing with Data from Star Trek. You get a lot of facts and high minded theory, but there is no context or human understanding.

OBP counts for a lot, but it is not the be all and end all of stats. But don’t try convincing the Shauns of the world that’s the case. They have their programmed responses regarding the importance of avoiding outs, and keep spouting the same tired responses over and over.

Players have different roles depending on where they hit in the batting order. Guys at the top get on base. The middle of the order hitters drive ‘em in and get on base for the next couple of guys. The hitters toward the bottom are supposed to drive in runs, especially in the NL because of having the pitcher’s spot coming up.

Gregor Blanco’s OBP last year was significantly higher than Francouer’s OBP in any of his first 2 1/2 seasons. I want any one of you modern statheads to make a case how Blanco was a more productive contributor last year than Francouer was in ‘05, ‘06 or ‘07.

Blanco is a textbook example of why OBP is overrated when used as the prodominant method of determining the offensive worth of a player. He didn’t score runs, even though he hit in the leadoff spot a good bit of the time, and he didn’t drive in runs. He did draw a lot of walks in the 8 hole, which didn’t accomplish much. Yes, I know his slugging percentage was awful, but he limited his number of outs, which is supposedly the object of an at-bat.

No one can dispute that in his first 2 1/2 seasons, Francouer was a terrific clutch hitter. Had he performed to those levels last year, the Braves’ season likely would have been very different.

Those of you who continue to denigrate the job Francouer did from ‘05 to ‘07 just because his OBP was lousy need to stick to playing whatever is the baseball equivalent of Madden football (assuming there is one).

More than any sport, baseball is a game of a numbers, but it takes more than OBP and OPS to define the measure of a hitter, something that simply doesn’t compute for the modern statheads. Please cite any examples of players who drive in lots of runs but really aren’t that good. Georgia Grad 74 cited one historical example (Joe Carter), haven’t seen any more modern equivalents.

Ya’ll can spout all the theories and projections and correlations you want. A guy who drives in 100 runs, hits for a respectable average overall and bats well over .300 with RISP has had a dam good year, regardless of his OBP.

If you haven’t figured it out by now, the earlier Georgia Grad 74 post was me. Forgot to change back to my DOB blog tag after ragging on some of the many idiots who populate the AJC’s college football blogs.

While many of us on here have some significant disagreements, the abject stupidity found on lots of the other blogs (especially the Falcons) is thankfully absent on this blog.

Except of course for the doofuses who think the Braves have to sign Sheets, Dunn and OHudson en masse RIGHT NOW, or propose trading Larry, Moe and Curly for Jake Peavy, Roy Oswalt, Roy Halladay, whoever.

By wrenless

January 2, 2009 6:41 PM | Link to this

Wren needs to sign manny for left and oliver perez and john smoltz then sign orlando hudson to play second base then trade kelly johnson for jake peavy for a true ace

rotaion peavy jurrjens perez vazquez smoltz or hanson

lineup

ss,Escobar cf,Schafer 3rd,Chipper left,Manny c,Mccann rf,Francoeur 1st,Kotchman 2nd,Hudson P,Peavy

Can some body tell wren to read this if he wants sell outs and fans and wins this year and 3rd or last

By ncscoots

January 2, 2009 6:56 PM | Link to this

I see mr. b and I were cribbing each other’s notes, LOL.

By N Nine

January 2, 2009 7:02 PM | Link to this

Scott Boras found another way to reward Andruw Jones. This guy is something.

Has Wren left the slopes yet?

By Moby Grape

January 2, 2009 7:03 PM | Link to this

Oh-man pitched 148 innings last year, and Boyer’s era was revolting. BA

Ohman pitched about 1/3 of that last season. Where did you come up with that? Or am I missing some hyperbole?

By Moby Grape

January 2, 2009 7:13 PM | Link to this

We can talk about plate discipline and all of this sh!t until we’re blue in the face. But here’s the bottom line:

Francoeur was an excellent hitter and run producer in 2007. Over the winter, he got himself in football shape and took the field in 08 intent on hitting more homeruns… and it screwed him up. Royally.

Before the season during batting practice, Chipper watched him hit and busted on him by saying “lose an Andruw, gain an Andruw”. Ouch.

That says it all.

Plate discipline be damned. All Francoeur has to do is rid his mind of all things 2008, and pick up where he left off in September of 07’. KC

ah, if ignorance is such bliss. you must be one happy dude.

By ô¿ô

January 2, 2009 7:19 PM | Link to this

i actualy would like to see AJ back in braves uniform - i think he would be worth the gamble .. it should not cost them much at all - why not sign a LF like Dunn or Burell - and give AJ a shot @ CF - worst that can happen is he continues his slump and they call up JS and if he doesnt slump braves could go from least hrs in the out field to most hrs with 40 from dunn 35 from AJ and 25 from frenchy. - thoughts??

By TooFarGone

January 2, 2009 7:21 PM | Link to this

Speed is to Coach as OBP is to DAP. A good thing taken too far. It is not the difference between a hitters BA and his OBP that is important. It is the total OBP. 219/.332 is crap no matter how much higher the OBP is.

By Moby Grape

January 2, 2009 7:28 PM | Link to this

Mark my words, if he bounces back to the same levels before 2008, not one of you will be complaining about Jeff Francoeur Jerald

thats total crap because many of us have been unhappy with him as a hitter all along. As his totals increase his RISP will fall in line with his normal hitting as it started to last season when it was worse than his par. It is not considered a repeatable skill. The guy is nothing special at all. Serviceable is the best I can come up with. Stick with the 1050s stats if it suits, but you aren’t going to convince any stats guy that you are correct.

By athensmatt

January 2, 2009 7:39 PM | Link to this

AZBravoFan

I mentioned the game about Jurrjens striking out Andruw three times, and I was also at that game in New York you were talking about. I flew up there with my brother (who is a blog regular here) and a few friends of ours for the entire three-game series. That inning where Jurrjens walked in a couple runs was pretty exciting — not just in the game but in the stands as well. Several fights broke out in the stadium and it made us all a little nervous because we had on Braves shirts and hats. It was pretty awesome though when the Braves came back and won. The next two games were pretty disappointing.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 2, 2009 7:59 PM | Link to this

i actualy would like to see AJ back in braves uniform - i think he would be worth the gamble .. it should not cost them much at all - why not sign a LF like Dunn or Burell - and give AJ a shot @ CF - worst that can happen is he continues his slump and they call up JS and if he doesnt slump braves could go from least hrs in the out field to most hrs with 40 from dunn 35 from AJ and 25 from frenchy. - thoughts?? ô¿ô

You’re kidding, right? Not about the Dunn and Burrell part but about the Andruw part.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 2, 2009 8:01 PM | Link to this

Besides, ô¿ô , it looks as if LA is going to eat about half of Andruw’s contract, so he would cost whoever acquires him about $10 million, plus whatever players the Dodgers would ask for in a trade.

I’ll bet you could get a real hitter for that much or less in the FA market.

By mr baseball

January 2, 2009 8:14 PM | Link to this

scoots: I see that old, mediocre minds think alike.

By Tomas

January 2, 2009 8:15 PM | Link to this

Andruw is a free agent. I would like to see him back, but as a spring training invite to see if he deserves to be on this team. He is still a good fielder, but slower. If he plays good in spring training it’s a good idea to offer him a contract.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 2, 2009 8:20 PM | Link to this

Moby Grape

You have me confused with someone who gives a frilly sh!t what you think. I gave my opinion and you gave yours. Nothing more can be done other than sit back and see how it all plays out in 2009. I am curious though about one thing. Are you one of the many that wanted Chipper gone after the 2004 season when he hit .248?

By keylargo

January 2, 2009 8:22 PM | Link to this

Just as soon as one of you stat guys shows me which one of the Triple Crown winners was an absolute fraud, I’ll stop using Average, Home Runs and RBI’s as a measuring stick.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 2, 2009 8:25 PM | Link to this

mr baseball,

Blanco may be the exception that proves the rule. He had a very good OBP in the leadoff spot, too — .371.

Yet despite playing in that spot roughly half a season — 285 plate appearances — he scored only 30 runs as a leadoff hitter (touche). Largely because he hit only 7 doubles and 2 triples. He didn’t get himself in scoring position so the guys hitting behind him rarely drove him in.

So you’re right, that OBP taken in isolation can lead stat readers to overvalue a player.

That said, the way Blanco is hitting in winter ball, if some of that power translates to the major leagues in 2009, he’ll be a pretty decent player, either as a fourth OF or a regular in CF.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 2, 2009 8:33 PM | Link to this

keylargo,

Isn’t the Triple Crown a statistical measure, too?

By Steve from OH

January 2, 2009 8:35 PM | Link to this

Wow, Utah looking impressive early.

By Steve from OH

January 2, 2009 8:46 PM | Link to this

mr. b:

More sophisticated metrics do show that despite Blanco’s good OBP, he was indeed a below-average player in ‘08, and that Francoeur was indeed better than him in ‘05 and ‘07 because of his slugging ability and BA to go along with a passable OBP. This is why I am keen to see Schafer open 2009 in CF for los Bravos. But Blanco’s OBP is the main reason I prefer him to Anderson (and that his stint in winter ball combined with his career minor league #’s lead me to believe he can hit for at least as much power as Anderson). Anyhoo, the point is that while OBP isn’t the “be all and end all,” it is still a critical skill a player absolutely must possess to be an above-average major leaguer. Frenchy’s HR/RBI/BA can make him average with a low OBP, but can’t make him great. With a strong OBP base, all of that other stuff comes into play and does become important.

Keylargo, have you ever looked at the slash stats for the triple crown winners? They’re astronomical (Jimmie Foxx slugged like .700 or something back in 1935(?). Compare that to Blanco’s .309!). But I’m sure that has nothing to do with why they’re good ;)

By BravesFanInRockies

January 2, 2009 8:49 PM | Link to this

Talk about your BCS buster, eh?

By Moby Grape

January 2, 2009 8:56 PM | Link to this

You have me confused with someone who gives a frilly sh!t what you think. Jerald

ooh, nasty little b******* aren’t you?naughty, naughty Jerri.

and no I was not for getting rid off Chipper. Neither was anybody with any understanding of stats as opposed to mental midgets who wouldn’t know a standard deviation if it bit them in the arse, and think BA is the be-all and end-all…. and of course the 100001 teenagers who inhabit the boards.

and if you have the ba11s to still be here next winter, we will surely talk about Frenchy again, though I think you are confusing me with someone who thinks he will fail, when what I think is that even if he does bounce back, he still won’t be anything special, just like before.

By keylargo

January 2, 2009 9:01 PM | Link to this

Isn’t the Triple Crown a statistical measure, too? BFIR

Yes it is, but somehow most (or all) of the guys who won the TC ended up in the Hall of Fame without being judged on OBP, OPS OPS+, VORP, BAPID ETC.

From the time I was 5 years old and began collecting baseball cards the basic stats on the backs of cards have told me pretty much all I really ever needed to know. I would have a different outlook, I’m sure, if I made my living judging baseball players on the professional level.

By Lew

January 2, 2009 9:25 PM | Link to this

Moby-What you and the rest of the Francoeur haters don’t seem to realize, or if you do, refuse to accept is that every player brings something different to the table. With Frenchy (at least when not screwed up by weight distribution) is a rifle arm and the ability to knock in runners in scoring position. Aren’t these traits to be desired? Is it absolutely essential that he puts up Ruthian numbers for him to be a worthwhile player or a contributing member of the team?

He will never, as we all know, have an incredible OBP (for whatever it’s worth to whomever wants to view it in whatever way they want to view it.). He will likely never have the plate discipline that you want him to have. But when the Dude is on his game, he will more often than not drive in the runner and will keep opposing runners honest, throwing out a fair number of those foolish enough to try to run on him.

No one in their right mind will claim that last season was anything but dreadful for Francoeur. He was as bad as a player with his ability could possibly be. Terrible. Horrid. Choose your own descriptive term and I won’t argue with you. However, he did what was necessary. He determined WHY he was terrible and took steps to remedy the problem by losing considerable weight at the end of the season. No, it wasn’t enough to counteract the rest of the season, but as someone pointed out a couple days ago, he did raise his average to around .280 for the last month or so-not phenomenal, but much better. His fielding was much improved as well, leading me to believe he found the correct reason for his decline.

Every thing I’ve read both from and about him in the off season indicates he is dedicated, motivated and working on improving his game. Like I said-I doubt he’ll ever live up to the Sports Illustrated cover story (could anyone even do that?) and he’ll never satisfy some of you. However, I see nothing to be lost from hoping he’ll revert to 07 levels or better himself. I’m betting he will. I’m also betting that if he does, the Braves’ offense will be much better than some of you believe it will be and plenty of teams would be quite happy to have an outfielder who routinely drives in 100 runs, no matter what their OBP might be.

By DAP

January 2, 2009 9:39 PM | Link to this

jerald holcomb

you are absolutely right about the hudson contract. i missed it, but i dont know what it means, and ive never heard anything about it. i would like to know the details of that.

about the other thing, im sorry, but the statement that OBP is mostly important for guys at he top is just wrong. as a coach you probably set up your team like that, based on their skills, but their mission didnt change no matter where they batted: dont make an out. and that is OBP.

By Lew

January 2, 2009 9:42 PM | Link to this

I also find it quite interesting that there has been discussion on Andre Dawson, with his career .323 OBP being spoken of in terms of the HOF when Frenchy is being soundly condemned for having a career .312 OBP. Are we to believe that the difference between a potential HOF er and a player universally considered to suck is a difference of .011 in OBP?

What’s that? It’s more than OBP? Really? From some of the responses here tonight, you could have fooled me.

By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)

January 2, 2009 9:49 PM | Link to this

No matter the opinion, whether it be for or against Jeff Francoeur, one thing stands out as of right now….

The Atlanta Braves have done NOTHING to improve their outfield. Not one damn thing. The entire outfield hit 27 HR’s in 2008. In 2007, 2006 and 2005 they hit 59, 87 and 89 HR’s respectively. The steep drop in power production during the past four seasons is very real and it has not been addressed by the front office.

I’m not even gonna get into the RBI and defensive stats, they tell the same story. The outfield stinks.

The addition of Vasquez versus the loss of Hampton equals out fairly even. Don’t take my word for it, check Hampton’s 13 starts and stats against the last 13 starts of Vasquez, they are virtually dead even.

Some pundits and various blogs have actually expressed the belief that the Braves roster has not improved since the 2008 season ended and may in fact, actually be in worse shape than it was on September 28th 2008.

I for one, agree that the team has not improved. The good news is, the season doesn’t start for another four months. Frank Wren has time to do SOMETHING, ANYTHING, PLEASE!

As for Frenchy, 2009 will make or break his career as an Atlanta Brave.

By 18 Wheels of Love

January 2, 2009 10:05 PM | Link to this

Hey folks, the Andruw Jones-to-Atlanta rumors are about to get nuts around these parts since he just agreed to a buyout that might ultimately lead to him becoming a FA.

Let me be the first to say NO to him coming back. But you just know he is going to beg to come back as he has stated many times while in LA that he would love to be a Brave again. At best I would offer him a minor league deal. I just foresee way too many issues that could occur if he were back with the Braves.

By Rob

January 2, 2009 10:06 PM | Link to this

I just heard an interesting tidbit from XM Homeplate. On the late edition the host said the Braves and Dodgers were talking about a trade that would send Andruw back to us for Charlie Morton. Can’t find anything on it on the web yet but thats what he said I dont’t remember the host’s name (Lee “something”). I don’t like it personally.

By Gone Viral

January 2, 2009 10:15 PM | Link to this

I’m fascinated by all of these high-minded defenses of Francoeur that attempt to dismiss math as somehow a flawed pursuit. Let’s just Occam’s Razor it. Jeff Francoeur has been a sucky major league hitter for two simple reasons, strike one and strike two. He faced more 0-2 counts than anyone else in the game last year. That doesn’t happen by accident. A person who repeats the same mistake over and over again is an addict. Jeff Francoeur is addicted to getting behind in the count. Stupid is as stupid does.

Defending him for past seasons just ignores the core problem, which has been there the entire time.

By Random

January 2, 2009 10:17 PM | Link to this

AZBravoFan, athensmatt—

That was the one I picked, too! (See above.)

Here’s a link to the MLB Gameday for that game — 4/25/08.

And here’s a link to Mark Bowman’s write-up of the game on Braves.com (“Jurrjens’ maturity shows in Braves’ win; Young starter keeps composure despite wild inning vs. Mets”).

By Gone Viral

January 2, 2009 10:20 PM | Link to this

If we trade for Andruw, the prospect we send back would be an Rookie League guy hitting .120. Or Frenchy.

By ô¿ô

January 2, 2009 10:57 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies

yes i am serious - why not take a chance on him if he is not going to cost them much money at all? i think he would be worth it if they get him as their CF not as the power Hitting LF that they say they are getting - he could only be a bonus if he gets back on track and if he doesnt who cares all it would do is give Shaffer a little more time in the minors before he is ready.

By keylargo

January 2, 2009 11:03 PM | Link to this

I’m thinking WE get players for taking AJ>

Just think, Jones started his carreer as a 170 pound outfielder. He ended last year as a 256 pound bench warmer for the Dodgers.

Who else has gained 86 pounds and is still a factor in any sport?

How about Matthew Stafford - now 237 pounds - with AJ inflation factor - 323 pounds. Lions pick him 1st overall as a nose tackle?

Matt Ryan? 220 pounds - with AJ inflation factor - 306 pounds. Think he makes rookie of the year at 306?

Ron Turcotte Triple Crown Jockey for Secretariat - 116 pounds - with AJ inflation factor - 202 pounds. Think Secretariat wins the TC with a running back sized jockey?

How about one of those cute Olympic gymnast? 100 pounds and 5 feet tall. You still want to date her at 5 feet and 186?

I could go one but most of you get my point.

NO ANDRUW JONES EVER AGAIN!

By nolie

January 2, 2009 11:13 PM | Link to this

I’m basically a semi-stathead, LOL. I daresay I’ve spent as much time as Shaun, say, in researching sabermetric data and its value for evaluating players and their skills. That kind of quantitative analysis appeals to me, on a lot of levels, and I’ve always cottoned to the idea that truth, as it is, may be different from truth, as it is perceived.

But I’m also an old guy :-), and the three stats still have meaning for me. No matter how demeaned those stats may be (non-sac-non-whatever situations, context-dependent, and so forth), the guy who goes .300/30/100 is gonna get my vote, and long before I start thinking about his VORP, BABIP, OPS+, or Win Shares. Because I know, looking at that line, that this is a GOOD PLAYER, regardless of the results of a deeper and more definitive analysis. Park-adjust that, if you wish. scoots

well said. I believe I’ve said the same thing about myself B4 though likely not as eloquently.

By N Nine

January 2, 2009 11:19 PM | Link to this

Andruw comback player of year?

By N Nine

January 2, 2009 11:20 PM | Link to this

Andruw comeback player of year?

By keylargo

January 2, 2009 11:23 PM | Link to this

Andruw comback player of year? N Nine

They’ll call you K Nine with comments like that. :-)

By oldbrave

January 2, 2009 11:28 PM | Link to this

74 GA Grad, I like your analysis of the ‘initials’ debate. You explain the thought behind the action very well. That is in itself the most important ‘stat’ in baseball, but one that is under appreciated. The explanation of how JF did have good seasons until 08 is correct. I think he will come back. The kid works hard and has a good attitude.

By KC

January 2, 2009 11:35 PM | Link to this

Moby Grape: Congratulations! You have joined a select group of people here who prefer to call those who disagree with them “ignorant”, rather than offer a reasoned argument for their point of view.

I don’t think plate discipline is unimportant. However, there are hitters who manage to be very productive in spite of a lack of plate discipline (Vlad Guerrero comes to mind).

Francoeur put up some pretty damned good numbers over his first few seasons with his free swinging ways.

You can rarely ask a zebra to change his stripes. That’s just who he is as a hitter. And he doesn’t need to fundamentally change that. He just needs to clear his head and get back to where he was at the end of the 07 season when he hit .293 to go along with his 100+ RBI.

If that point of view sounds ignorant to… well, you’re either right… or conceited and full of s**t. In either case, I would be pleased to hear a more detailed rebuttal than “ignorance is bliss…”.

By Bill

January 2, 2009 11:38 PM | Link to this

Bobby Cox wants AJ back…so what does that tell you. We’ll end up with two piles of sh@# in RF & CF. Damn what a joke the Braves have become.

By Moby Grape

January 2, 2009 11:56 PM | Link to this

Moby-What you and the rest of the Francoeur haters don’t seem to realize, or if you do, refuse to accept is that every player brings something different to the table Lew

I am NOT a Frenchy hater, I said he is adequate when at his best, I just think that a certain group vastly over-rate him based on a couple of years of decent RBI totals when most any equal hitter ie dead average 100 OPS+ hitter would probably been as successful.

I grant that he had two years of hitting well in clutch situations, but I do not believe nor do career stats of other players prove that is a repeatable skill. It is very probable that his clutch stats will drift back closer to his normal production over the years, as it almost always does. Nobody hits a career .280 normally with a .325 RISP over a longterm number of at bats. That does not make me a hater, just someone who believes that he will never be anything special. Big Big difference. I have no emotional value for or against 99% of ball players including most Braves, I simply try to be as realistic as possible regarding them.

It pretty much breaks down across stat-sabilities on Jeff. Those who think that BA/HR/RBI are adequate, reliable evaluating data and those of us who don’t. One of the things that I find interesting is how frequently we are charged with being haters and how quickly angry many of the RBI guys get. Considering somebody as merely serviceable is not anywhere near the same as hating him, but you too lump them together.

By Anti-Stathead

January 2, 2009 11:58 PM | Link to this

I just base my observations on what I see performance wise. The look on a guys face when he digs in. His demeanor when the bases are juiced and he’s behind in the count. The confidence or lack thereof. What his swing looks like. In tough spots, is he at least making loud outs if not actually moving or driving in the runner?

What of Frenchy? Some who are slammin’ the statheads seem to want to use the 100 rbi seasons as an example of how productive he is/was. Over the history of baseball there have been a number of so-so, average career, guys who have had a couple of 100 rbi seasons.

I see a guy with raw athletic ability who is very immature at the plate. He hardly ever really centers the bat on the ball. He gets some of the ugliest, cue shot, hump back liner hits I’ve ever seen. His outs look even worse when he manages to put the ball in play.

Call it gut instinct. Call it watching baseball for close to 50 years. My eyes tell me Frenchy isn’t going to be a super star or even a star. He has too many flaws in his swing and his approach to hitting. The guy just doesn’t seem to be too smart with a bat in his hand and I don’t see his baseball IQ increasing significantly in the next few years.

Guys who are going to be something special are usually showing that special something with some consistency when they have 3 1/2 seasons under their belt. Frenchy is actually showing he’s NOT what many had hoped he would be. If he had five seasons of good production and then struggled, I would feel like it was just a bump in the road. When the bottom falls out after 2 seasons like it did for Frenchy, I gotta believe it’s his lack of confidence, baseball IQ and the fact the the league knows him very well now.

By KC

January 3, 2009 12:12 AM | Link to this

Bill: “Bobby Cox wants AJ back”

Says who? Did I miss something? I haven’t heard anything from the Braves saying they want him back.

However, If the Braves could get Andruw back for virtually nothing, I’d be willing to take a chance on him. Maybe he’ll bounce back and be a very productive player. If not… well, if you don’t give up any real talent to get him, and aren’t paying him much, then you haven’t lost anything.

By brent a.

January 3, 2009 12:18 AM | Link to this

Despite what was a down year for the SEC, the conference has looked pretty solid in bowl games.

I typically don’t put too much stock in bowl games, because they are such a crap shoot, due largely to the time-off, suspensions, etc.

But, still nice to see Vandy, Kentucky, Georgia, LSU and Ole Miss do the conference proud.

I think what may of hurt BAMA, is that Utah treated this game like the national championship game, while for BAMA, it was a consolation prize. The Sugar Bowl used to be reserved for the SEC champion, but now, it’s typically for the SEC runner-up, as the SEC frequently places a team in the BCS title game.

Ole Miss impressed me today, but did not really surprise me. They were probably the third best (if not 2nd best) team in the SEC by year’s end. They had a poor start, but more than recovered from early losses to Vandy (and others). They proved that the win over Florida was no fluke. Not saying that they would beat Florida again; but rather that they were a really solid football team and could compete with anyone.

By Johnny B

January 3, 2009 12:42 AM | Link to this

I can only see taking a chance on AJ if it A) Cost us no prospects B) The contract is league minimum (if that is even possible) and is all incentive and conditioning base above minimum.

I love the guy but his skills and conditioning are so diminished. It makes you wonder if his skills are that erroded or if his lack conditioning and refusal to adhere to hitting advise that are leading to his downward spiral.

My feeling is it’s a combination of all of the above!

You want to take a chance on a real power hitter? High OBS, Decent lifetime ave., High OBPS….A real recclamation project with high reward, low risk BUT A ton of baggage?…I present Barry Bonds.

Iknow, I know and I’m really toungue in cheek with this! There’s no doubt the guy would jump at a deal with a spring training invite. Work the deal so if he’s convicted come March the Braves pay him nothing and if he’s not convicted…Who knows?

Like I said though, LOTS AND LOTS of baggage…OK go ahead and blast away! LMAO!

By Gone Viral

January 3, 2009 12:54 AM | Link to this

*It pretty much breaks down across stat-sabilities on Jeff. *

Actually, I would maintain that the debate on Frenchy breaks down among fans of Georgia natives playing for the Braves versus those who don’t care about geography as much as victories. If, say, Brandon Jones — a Florida native — had played this way over the past four years, he would not have anywhere near the level of support Frenchy does. People say he has “free swinging ways”. That’s a polite way to say he’s undisciplined and ignorant as a hitter. The defense is given that it worked for a while and last year was just an anomaly. The reality is that this has always been what he is as a hitter, but it was hidden better when the Braves fielded a better lineup. But as long as his the native son, some fans are going to continue to look the other way about it.

I would be speaking in different terms if the situation with Francoeur were even close. He’s pyrite.

By Random

January 3, 2009 12:55 AM | Link to this

Coach: “The Atlanta Braves have done NOTHING to improve their outfield. Not one damn thing.”

NOT TRUE!!!

They’ve baked a cake that says “WELCOME BACK, MATT!”

They’ve even invited Tug to ST to sit on it.

Catching up:

74 Georgia grad: “The Braves much-maligned RF is a favorite target of the blog’s modern stat-heads, mostly because he has an aversion to taking four balls in a single at bat.”

No, it’s mostly because “Francoeur still cannot lay off of pitches he shouldn’t be swinging at, and is keeping the bat on his shoulder on called strikes.”

Jerald Holcombe: “Also helps to get paid to micro manage stats til they’re coming out of your ears. Me, I’ll stick to the human angle and what my eyes are telling me. Is that okay with you?”

Yepper — it’s willful, all right.

KC: “I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.”

I guess so — you and me. You and Shaun. You and Efrim. You and Steve from OH. You and Moby Grape. You and BravesFanInRockies. You and fill in the blank. (But not with huggabLew.)

Steve from OH: “Some of the stats are a bit much, I’ll give you that, but unless you can watch every inning of every game for every team played, [and have perfect recall, and can be objective, and have adequate analytical skills], I’ll stick to objective analysis.”

I agree 100% — I just fleshed it out a little.

KC: “There are many - MANY - examples in baseball of very good players (who were neither aged nor injured) having a terrible year; a season long slump that they simply couldn’t shake. And in the majority of these cases, the players bounce back the next year.

“Just a few examples: … “

I do not disagree with you, sir. We were saying the same thing about Andruw a year ago.

But seriously, none of your examples are analogous to Francoeur, who will be entering the fourth year of a continuous hitting decline, esp SLG and even ISO. His only numbers that have fluctuated up and down are his BABIP (and thus AVG & OBP) and RBIs — and the one is highly dependent on luck, and the other is highly dependent on context.

I wonder what his 2007 BABIP was with RISP? (That’s not rhetorical — I don’t know where to find that stat.)

In other words, I do not consider Francoeur’s 2008 performance an aberration, so much as a continuation of his MLB career trajectory. I know you disagree.

“Is it possible that he’ll never regain pre-2008 form? Sure, it’s possible. But I consider it highly unlikely. And I am willing to bet on that if you’re up for a friendly wager.”

Sure — I’ll take that bet! That’s one I’d be delighted to lose.

By Random

January 3, 2009 12:58 AM | Link to this

Lew: “Got to agree with you on that one. Lowe is worth what they offered for Burnett much more than Burnett is.”

Ve de vaca!!! A gold star from Lew! I’m gonna put it right on my lap(top).

(JK. Thanks.)

Anders: “Not sure if there is an archives type access to this blog but if there is maybe someone could share how it works so Thrillhouse can go and validate my presence here.”

Easy-peasy — Google Advanced Search.

Just copy and paste the URL above (tailored for the appropriate year and/or month and/or date) into the field for “Search within a site or domain”, add any other criteria you might fancy, and voila!

Ve de vaca!!! C’est bon, non? I just did it for “Anders” in Sep 08, and there were 14 blogs where that name appeared. (Not to say that he posted on each — maybe someone else merely mentioned his name. Like “Where’s Anders?”)

;->

Lew: “Maybe I should go cry or scourge myself. Do you have some thumb screws I could borrow? Maybe some sackcloth and ashes? Anyone have an extra Iron Maiden? Somehow I doubt the Blog Ref would be satisfied if I just listened to Piece of Mind or Number of the Beast real loud. I feel so bad.”

We’ll settle for a gag and a catheter.

(JK, JK! Cheez.)

Lew: “I also find it quite interesting that there has been discussion on Andre Dawson, with his career .323 OBP being spoken of in terms of the HOF when Frenchy is being soundly condemned for having a career .312 OBP. Are we to believe that the difference between a potential HOF er and a player universally considered to suck is a difference of .011 in OBP?”

No, not interesting — I don’t think anyone advocating for Dawson in the HOF actually knows what OBP is. Or if they do, they look at it as do you, Jerald Holcombe, Georgia Grad 74/mr baseball, keylargo et al.

There is no cognitive dissonance there. Dawson is being (marginally) considered on the basis of his traditional stats (mostly counting stats), multiple ASG appearances, ludicrous MVP and affability.

By KC

January 3, 2009 1:19 AM | Link to this

RANDOM: Thank you for setting me straight. I thought I wasn’t the only one who thought Francoeur was a productive player before last season. But you have made it clear the everyone disagrees with me on that point.

I can see now that I was wrong. Francoeur has always sucked. His .293 average in 07 meant nothing, and his 100 RBI’s every year were meaningless.

I do hate to stand out from the crowd, and since everyone disagrees with the notion that Francoeur was a good hitter before last year, I guess I’ll have to change my point of view.

But… since I already offered the wager, I guess I’ll have to reluuuuctanly follow through. Email me at embassypro@hotmail.com, and we’ll agree on terms. =)

By Moby Grape

January 3, 2009 1:34 AM | Link to this

KC

I meant it as a tongue-in-cheek play on that old bromide, but you are right, it was too harsh. I no way agree with your post that I quoted from and I do consider that statement to be foolish, but it was a poor response of mine. Sorry dude

By TennesseePaul

January 3, 2009 1:40 AM | Link to this

This team was riddled with injuries last season. In the end, they lost 90 games. This was an eye opener for Wren. He began his rebuilding early. His list, two veteran pitchers to put at the top of the rotation and a power hitting outfielder. His success so far? Not so good. He has one veteran pitcher who shouldn’t be put at the top of a rotation. That’s it.

Reason to hope though, right? The team will be “healthy” next season so that should help… Only thing is, most of those injured last year aren’t guaranteed to come back in 2009, (Hampton, Smoltz, Glavine, etc). Or if they do, they aren’t guaranteed to be as good as they were prior to injury. And even still, most of those injuries that derailed the season occured when the team had a slugger to fit into the fourth spot in the line up.
As is this team is the Braves 2008 July 29th - September 28th team. The team that went 23-34 (that’s a 65-97 full season team record). I’m not sure Adam Dunn’s frightening rain or shine production at the plate will put this team in the post season.
Interestingly, he was the only player I could find (minimum 400 plate appearances in 2008) who reached base more by walk and HBP than by hit (51% of his on base percentage was from walks or HBP). Pat Burrell and Gregor Blanco were the next closest in this category, 47% by walk or HBP. Next was Ricky Weeks at 42%. Everyone else was below 40%.

By Moby Grape

January 3, 2009 2:09 AM | Link to this

he was the only player I could find (minimum 400 plate appearances in 2008) who reached base more by walk and HBP than by hit (51% of his on base percentage was from walks or HBP). TennPaul

I love OBP, but I would prefer that 60% or more would be hits. I am not a huge Dunn fan all things considered.

By uga-brave

January 3, 2009 2:13 AM | Link to this

a lot of francoeur talk on here today.

i think all of the stat heads are missing the most important thing.

he has marginable mechanics at best. he hits off his front foot and drops his hands. there is no way you can generate power when your weight is not on your right side.

he hits zero dingers to right center, or right.

all this talk about him being able to hit the other way negates what he should be.

he drops his hands, as long as he continues to do that he will never be a great hitter.

watch great hitters like man-ram or chipper, they occasionally get on their front foot but their hands are always quiet.

when frenchy gets on his front foot his weight is already going foward. tough to hit that way.

no one questions his desire, but his fundamentals are lacking.

unless he opens his stance, thus forcing him to stay inside the ball aint a whole lot going to change.

hard to believe we ran rochy out after a .280 30 90 rbi season.

pretty sure the braves would love to see the same type of season out of golden boy.

the way this team is currently set up, it demands power out of their corner outfielders.

even if he bounces back somewhat it aint going to get it.

we need .290 30 100 rbi out of him.

hey it could happen right? no one thought the falcons would of won more then 5 games this season, right?

By Jim

January 3, 2009 4:57 AM | Link to this

Re AJ, Satchel Page once said, “Don’t look back, life may be gaining on you.” Problem with B’s signing him is that it might look like they have accomplished something this winter. He’s not performing in DWL. Only worth conisdering if he suddenly starts to hit there, and weighs in below 215. Doubtful. Very doubtful.

By BayAreaSteve

January 3, 2009 5:16 AM | Link to this

scoots a “mediocre mind?”

like calling Anders humble

same, but different.

miss ya, jjs

By BayAreaSteve

January 3, 2009 5:16 AM | Link to this

scoots a “mediocre mind?”

like calling Anders humble

same, but different.

miss ya, jjs

By uga-brave

January 3, 2009 5:34 AM | Link to this

bay area steve,

a sinlgle malt or a whiskey?

either way i left you one of each.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 3, 2009 6:07 AM | Link to this

DAP On the Hudson contract, your guess is as good as mine. I can only assume that both sides mutually agreed upon how many innings it would take to be vested in 2010. And of course, I’m sure that the number of innings necessary won’t be attained by missing most of the 2009 season. I do hope he does well enough when he returns to warrant a new contract.

As for OBP, of course it has relevance. But, it’s more relevant at the top of the lineup. It’s important to always get on base, but each spot in the lineup brings it’s own responsibilities.

18 Wheels Haven’t heard about the proposed buyout of Andruws contract, but if it should happen, I agree to offer him a minor league contract. That would be a no lose for the team. Question is, would Andruw go for it?

ROB Seems to me that, in that scenario, the Dodgers would be asking for too much when they want to get rid of Andruw so bad.

By Random

January 3, 2009 6:23 AM | Link to this

uga-brave: “a lot of francoeur talk on here today.

“i think all of the stat heads are missing the most important thing.

“he has marginable mechanics at best. he hits off his front foot and drops his hands. there is no way you can generate power when your weight is not on your right side.… . etc”

No they didn’t “miss” that — they simply did not adress it.

They were talking about what the numbers showed about Francoeur’s performance, but not why.

Appreciate you addressing that aspect — the mechanics of his hitting, etc.

But what about his pitch recognition and strike zone awareness — do you not see major flaws there?

I do. I think until 2008, he had been able to compensate for these flaws with his raw talent and youthful quickness.

Whatever changed last year (say, bulking up, for the sake of argument, or perhaps his foot/ankle problem maybe) prevented him from compensating as well as before.

So even if he does correct that, as some here have suggested (eg, losing weight, re-flexibilizing himself, etc), imo he still has not addressed his basic problem(s — marginal to “faulty” mechanics as you suggest, and/or pitch recognition, etc, as I suggest.

By ncscoots

January 3, 2009 6:43 AM | Link to this

uga, Francoeur swing flaws might have been a little exaggerated in the past year, no? Seems to me that he tried so many “solutions” from so many voices that he had no chance of getting a consistent swing.

However, in previous years, his swing wasn’t nearly so FUBAR. His swing has always been a little long, but his hands are quick enough to handle that. At least, when he’s swinging instead of thinking about swinging.

In any event, if his problems were only mechanics, he’d be eminently fixable. But even perfect mechanics get you out when you swing at pitchers’ strikes more often than you swing at hitters’ strikes. Recognition of the difference is a learned skill, and the guy is a little low on that learning curve, so far.

If he ever does develop that skill, though, I think you’ll see that his “mechanics” will be greatly improved, LOL.

By Bill M.

January 3, 2009 7:03 AM | Link to this

If the Dodgers release A. Jones, sign him to a minor league deal with a chance to make team but play him in LF and give Schaffer a chance to win CF job.

By 18 Wheels of Love

January 3, 2009 8:59 AM | Link to this

If Andruw is released, and it is likely he will be, he could be signed for the league minimum of around 400k. Sounds like a reasonable gamble but IMO it puts us back to 2006. So he plays for 1 year and then leaves again. Been there, done that. Let’s move forward not revisit the past.

By Robert (Chipper Is The Best)

January 3, 2009 9:40 AM | Link to this

Okay would Andruw Jones be worth the risk for $5 mil which is apparently all that is left on his contract? It be a one year deal since that is all he has left on his contract. I can’t imagaine the Braves would have to give up very much to get him. The Braves would still have enough money left to sign two pitchers probably.

Of course the issue is can Andruw Jones regain at least some of his power stroke?

By Trip K

January 3, 2009 9:54 AM | Link to this

if AJ is Realeased wont the team that picks him up have to give him the 5MM still due to his 2009 salary or will the dodgers still be stuck with that? i would all be for getting AJ for center if it is 1MM or less.

By 18 Wheels of Love

January 3, 2009 10:05 AM | Link to this

If he is released the Dodgers are on the hook for the 5m. Any team could then sign him for as low as the league minimum, which is 400k.

I still say no, no, no.

By KC

January 3, 2009 10:42 AM | Link to this

If Andruw can be attained for a few million, he would be worth the risk… because there wouldn’t be much of a risk.

If he bounces back, we’ll have added much needed power to the outfield (and he’s still a great defensive CF’er).

If not, you release him and it costs you very little.

Sign him. Why not?

By JimD

January 3, 2009 10:43 AM | Link to this

By Trip K

January 3, 2009 9:54 AM | Link to this

if AJ is Realeased wont the team that picks him up have to give him the 5MM still due to his 2009 salary or will the dodgers still be stuck with that? i would all be for getting AJ for center if it is 1MM or less.

I’ve heard of working for peanuts before, but I have never heard of working for M&Ms…not even peanut M&Ms.

But, as for salary, of the Dodger release Andrew THEY are on the hook for his 2009 salary. Whoever pick him up will only have to pay the league minimum amount.

Stiil … time to move forward. Forget AJ.

By JB

January 3, 2009 10:48 AM | Link to this

Part of taking Andruw Jones back is a risk, but part of that risk is the reward if he “earns” a spot on the roster and “produces” in Spring Training. I hope they give him a shot with the understanding there are no guarantees. I am sure Druw realizes what is what. You know Boras has explained, to Druw, in triple detail, all the scenarios and ramifications this restructure of his contract could lead to.

Before signing his next contract, hopefully with the Braves, I am sure the language will be clear and bold as to the direction of the club and his role and future with the club assuming he does not win an outright starting job. I want to see him fail before assuming he will fail. He can not be given a whole season to fail, his return and tryout must be limited to ST. That way there will be no doubt in my mind. If he does not fail the Braves finally catch a break.

March 18, 2009 Last day (by 2 p.m. EST) to place a player on unconditional release waivers and pay only 30 days’ termination pay. CBA, Article IX (B). (For split contracts, the Major League rate of termination pay is owed if Unconditional Release waivers are requested after 2 p.m. EST. However, the requirement for split contract termination pay does not apply for players who may not be assigned to the minor leagues without their consent and for players selected in the preceding Rule 5 draft.)

April 1, 2009 Last day (by 2 p.m. EST) to request unconditional release waivers on a player without having to pay his full 2009 salary. (Only 45 days’ termination pay is due.) CBA, Article IX (B).

By Billy Pilgrim

January 3, 2009 10:49 AM | Link to this

The only way I would trade anything useful for Andruw would be if the Braves were getting something besides Andruw in return and the Dodgers pick up all of the salary.

Otherwise, if the Braves actually want him back they should just wait until he’s released. If someone else makes a trade for him then there’s a 95% chance we won’t regret missing out on him.

I’d be fine with him coming back if it was of the understanding his spot in the lineup isn’t set in stone. Can’t have a repeat of 2007 with the risk of Francoeur in the lineup as well.

By AustinBraves

January 3, 2009 10:53 AM | Link to this

I say yes, yes, yes. Its crazy not to take a chance on one of the past best power hitters and fielders in the game. He was once compared to Willie Mays and I don’t know about you but I have seen many of thoses plays. I say sign Andrew.

By AustinBraves

January 3, 2009 11:01 AM | Link to this

When is David coming back. I need some MLB Barves rumors?

By KC

January 3, 2009 11:04 AM | Link to this

Moby Grape: No sweat man. I still don’t get what’s “foolish” about my viewpoint on Francoeur… but to each his own, I guess.

For all the examples of those who bounce right back from career-worst years… there are some examples, like Andruw, of those that don’t.

However, Francoeur did have the best month of the season in September. He hit .286 with 10 extra-base hits in the final month. Nothing to write home about, but it was night and day from the rest of his season.

No one has taken me up on it yet, but I AM available for a friendly wager on this. Seriously. Just email me at embassypro@hotmail.com.

By KC

January 3, 2009 11:08 AM | Link to this

I guess DOB had quite a bit of vacation coming. I keep waiting for him to pop in with an update.

I guess I’m just semi-desperate to hear anything on the ole Braves hotstove. I REALLY want to hear that the Braves are making a run at Lowe.

By Jeff

January 3, 2009 11:15 AM | Link to this

Doc Holiday: “I checked the braves official site and they put there a preview to the braves lineup for next year. It brings up a question in my mind. They are suggesting Anderson as our regular CF. Where does this comes from? In my mind Blanco should have that starting job until Anderson beats him. Opinions??????”

Anderson already beat him out and showed an ability to steal bases and hit for some power. I got tired of seeing Blanco walk and then sit on first base all inning even though it was claimed he had good speed. Anderson at least has gap power and can put pressure on the defense. If all else fails on the market I would not mind seeing Anderson in left and perhaps Schafer in center. Blanco did not impress me much given all the time he was allowed to start last year.

By Jason Cole

January 3, 2009 11:15 AM | Link to this

Davido, it’s Jason Cole, your former Dolphins-writing beat guy. Send me an email when you can. I was searching for that old rap song by Paris you once recorded for me. Can’t find it. Need a title. Hope all is well. Later.

By justdoit

January 3, 2009 11:28 AM | Link to this

if they can get him @ the league min i just dont understand why they wouldnt just take a chance? give him a shot @ CF and sign Dunn for LF / theres the answer to all that missing power in the outfield and @ the worst AJ would continue his Horrible Play and they call Up Shaffer.

if they sign Dunn And AJ and AJ and frenchy can turn it around and start playing to potential this could be one very scary lineup and it would also leave plenty of money to sign smoltz and one of Sheets or Lowe .

By Random

January 3, 2009 11:28 AM | Link to this

KC: “Some people are talking as though it’ some fundamental flaw in Francoeur’s overall ability (such as his lack of plate discipline) that causes his problems in 07… leading them to the conclusion that he won’t be able to recover. But that makes no sense to me, given that these supposed flaws were present in his first 3 (very successful) seasons.”

See my 6:23 AM to uga-brave.

I’m one who sees fundamental flaws in Francoeur’s overall hitting ability.

I think prior to 2008, he was able to compensate (well enough) for those flaws. Something in 2008 hindered his ability to compensate.

Even if that something disappears, those fundamental flaws will remain, unless specifically addressed and corrected.

And to restate and sum up another point — Francoeur was not an excellent hitter in 2007; he was a lucky hitter in 2007.

We’ll just have to wait and see what 2009 brings.

By Random

January 3, 2009 11:57 AM | Link to this

KC: “No one has taken me up on it yet, but I AM available for a friendly wager on this. Seriously. Just email me”

You (might) have mail.

AustinBraves: “When is David coming back. I need some MLB Barves rumors?”

Ah, yes — the rarely used plural of “barf”.

I’ll wager we’ll see it used a lot more often after the season begins.

;-)

By BravoMan

January 3, 2009 11:58 AM | Link to this

Im so bored!!! Im going through Braves Hot Stove withdraws! I havn’t heard a legitiment rumor bout the Braves in forever. It’s all just been speculation. DOB, come and save us with a rumor or two because were running out of stuff to talk about.

By Braveheart

January 3, 2009 12:03 PM | Link to this

In any event, if his problems were only mechanics, he’d be eminently fixable. But even perfect mechanics get you out when you swing at pitchers’ strikes more often than you swing at hitters’ strikes. Recognition of the difference is a learned skill, and the guy is a little low on that learning curve, so far.

It’s kind of hard to learn the skill with screwed up mechanics though. It’s like asking the idiot who drives his car while leaning against his door with a cigarette in one hand, a cell phone in the other hand, with his knees at 4 and 8 turning the wheels to see the road and react the same way the dude sitting upright with his hands at 10 and 2 can see the road and react.

By ozzie

January 3, 2009 12:04 PM | Link to this

Regarding JF read the Baseball Prospectus article on him, very eye opening.

The author basically says that JF has always moved one step forward and two steps back throughout his minor and major league career.

That he may not turn out to be more that a below average OF and will need to break the cycle of down years soon or his major league career will be in doubt.

JF did not just have an off year he has had a yoyo career where hype and local fan interest has glossed over his flaws.

JF is a football player trying to make it as a baseball player.

2009 will be a make or break year for him with the Braves and possible as a baseball player.

Again look at his history in the minors. What we are seeing in the majors mirrors his progression in the minors.

Flashes of brilliance surrounded by lots of head scratching mediocracy.

By Braveheart

January 3, 2009 12:08 PM | Link to this

And to restate and sum up another point — Francoeur was not an excellent hitter in 2007; he was a lucky hitter in 2007.

He wasn’t a lucky hitter. He was just an average hitter.

By DAP01

January 3, 2009 12:10 PM | Link to this

I love Andruw, I hope he does well. I would give him a shot at showing that he was improved.

BUT I would not give up a bag of balls for him, especially someone like Charlie Morton. Don’t give up anything for Andruw.

I believe that the reasons that people are so down on Francouer is because Jeff just don’t seem to get it. He seems to suffer from the same hard headed mentality that plagues Andruw.

We can analyze JF’s stats all day. But bottom line is I don’t see an outfielder that has power or a clue at the plate.

By keylargo

January 3, 2009 12:16 PM | Link to this

Other than the fact that Andruw Jones has not taken care of himself, trained like a professional athlete, is a 32 year old man in a 42 year old body and has gained 50% of his body weight since coming into the league I have one other overwhelming reason not to want him on this team.

Scott Boras.

On another note, the possible starting quarterback in the future for UGA is getting his first exposure to the Atlanta area on NBC at 1 pm today. I believe it is called the Army All Star football game and Aaron Murray is starting for the East

By oldbrave

January 3, 2009 12:21 PM | Link to this

AJ back in Atl? Baaaarrrrfff!

By David O'Brien

January 3, 2009 12:24 PM | Link to this

Random, Scoots: Good points on Francoeur’s struggles. In my opinion, and the opinion of many I’ve talked to, his poor strike-zone command and insistence on trying to pull so many pitches are the biggest problems that have undermined him and consumed his season in 2008.

I’ve got one more day of vacation today (I took two weeks, for those counting out there) and will be back with a new blog tommorow. Could be an interesting week for the Braves, who have not been nearly as inactive as you might think in the past week. Phone calls have been made, believe me.

By David O'Brien

January 3, 2009 12:26 PM | Link to this

Jason, I don’t have your e-mail. Send me one and I’ll respond. Mine’s dobrien@ajc.om. Trying to remember which Paris song I put on that mixed tape many moons ago. I’ve still got couple of his CDs, so shouldn’t be a problem finding it.

By Bobbymahlon

January 3, 2009 12:29 PM | Link to this

Below is a few stats showing the leaders for 2008 with players on the current roster. B.A. OBP 1. Jones Jones 2. Prado Prado 3. McCann McCann 4. Anderson Escobar 5. Infante Blanco

H.R. RBI 1. McCann McCann 2. Jones Jones 3. Johnson Francoeur 4. Francoeur Johnson 5. Escobar Escobar

Slugging 1. Jones 2. McCann 3. Prado 4. Johnson 5. Norton

Stats show that Johnson,Francoeur,Blanco and Anderson strike out too much and the only true base stealer we have is Anderson who was successful 10 out of 11 tries. I know somebody is going to point out McCann was successful on all 5 attempts. What might be a surprise to some would be Prado third in slugging I know it was to me.

By Doc Holiday

January 3, 2009 12:31 PM | Link to this

N8

You think Braves have been losers last 3 seasons with class? What does that mean? I mean, I have seen the Braves lose the most absurd games last 3 season that I cant think of an excuse to those loses. The have look ridiculous bad. If keeping their mouths shot is the same thing as having class, then I understand your point. But IMO losing with class is playing hard, winning games they had to win and then lose some. Maybe they have not looked like a street gang, but they have not been losing with class, they have look bad while doing so. Weak, unprepared, no motivation, no will. They have been out of it by half season last 3 seasons. Could you explain your point?

By AustinBraves

January 3, 2009 12:34 PM | Link to this

Stock Marketing Down 38% House values drop 41% Unemployment 7% Just a little Braves Rumor Priceless

By David O'Brien

January 3, 2009 12:37 PM | Link to this

Hudson’s option for 2010 is a mutual option (both parties must approve), not a vesting option. There’s a $1 mill buyout if it’s not exercised by Braves. There’s a chance he could miss entire 2009 season, in which case I don’t see other teams lining up with multi-year offers. If he comes back and makes a month’s worth of solid starts, sure, there could be some multi-year offers that would make him think about not using the 2010 Braves option. But we have no idea what the economy and free-agent market are going to be like a year from now, so probably not much point in speculating. Besides, if he pitches well, Braves would probably like to keep him, and he’s one native son of the area with multiple young kids and roots here, who I’d think would probably like to stay if Braves make a competitive offer. But again, so many variables we have no way of knowing at this time.

Factors such as how he’ll recover, what the market will be, what the Braves payroll will be, what young Braves pitchers might be ready or have already moved into the rotation by then, which pitcher they might pick up between now and then (if they were to sign another veteran to a multi-year deal now, wouldn’t that affect Hudson, if they also have Jurrjens, Hanson, Vazquez with a year left on his deal, etc?)

But if I had to guess, I’d say Hudson option is mutually agreed to for 2010. But it’s just speculation at this time.

By N Nine

January 3, 2009 12:40 PM | Link to this

Phone calls have been made, believe me

Wren has his new approach similar to JS working. No rumors have leaked this time around. Wonder if we are still running for that Japanese dude.

By Lew

January 3, 2009 12:40 PM | Link to this

Random-No, I don’t discount OBP, I just don’t see it as THE defining statistic. Nor do I reject the use of stats ( I actually find them almost as useful as some of the “stat heads”), I just don’t obsess about them, or see them as integral to my enjoyment of the game. I’ve always been a believer in intangibles, which many of the statistically oriented bloggers seem to think are useless in predicting anything (if anything can actually can, in fact BE predicted).

I grew up in the era that Key Largo spoke of yesterday-where you got the Triple Crown Stats with the baseball cards (along with that terrible cardboard bubble gum) and every day in the Sports Page. Now this doesn’t mean that there is no validity to any stat developed after the death of the dinosaurs, but I do not need OPS+ or BADABING or the Batting Average on Day Games IN Late Spring On Wednesday Games Against Ambidextrous Pitchers Born In July or whatever, to analyze what I’m seeing when watching a ball game. If you want to use them, then more power to you-it IS your prerogative-just don’t expect some of us to buy into the theory that we’re clueless because we don’t attach the importance to them that you do. Chacun a son gout, mon ami.

Oh and BTW-Acting like a p!$$y little B!tch is making you look like a jerk-not me.

By Shawn

January 3, 2009 12:47 PM | Link to this

“SATURDAY, 11:23am: Buster Olney’s sources tell him that Jones will receive the $15MM he’s owed in 2009 over the next six seasons, without interest. Apparently the Dodgers are likely to call the Braves, Reds and Mets about potential trades. One source familiar with the discussions said it’s virtually certain that the Mets won’t be interested.”’

mlbtr

By Steve from OH

January 3, 2009 12:49 PM | Link to this

DOB, glad to hear the Braves are working hard. And thanks for the vacation blog, that went above and beyond, even if some posters here disagree. I’ll second DAP’s post, because a lot of folks here appreciate it.

Do you suspect that they’re more actively searching for free agents or trades right now, or is it too tough to tell?

By Doc Holiday

January 3, 2009 12:57 PM | Link to this

Jeff

If Blanco does not steal bases it might not be all his fault. You have to get the sign you know? Thats not Bobbys style. He prefers the “get on base and wait for the bomb” approach. Our record last 3 seasons is the reflection of such a philosophy. No HRs no wins.

In 2008 LAD had the 4th fewest amount of HR in the league, yet they went all the way to the NLCS.

Same goes for the LAD and SDP in 2006, as only the pirates hit less HRs than they did, but those 2 teams got to the playoffs.

They lead the league in 2006 with 222 HRs and finished 18 GB the muts. Their is no explanation nor excuse for that.

Last year only the SFG hit less HRs than the Braves, that the reason Cox couldnt find a way to win games. He has a team with no power at all, yet he wont give the sign to run to Blanco, yunel, KJ, JF, Kotsay and whoever was in LF.

We were 2nd worst HR total, yet we had the 4th lowest stealing attempts total.

The number looks even worse if you compare the OBP those teams had in 2008.

What all this mean is that those 3 teams that had less stealing attempts also had a fr lower OBP percentage, meaning they had less base runners to send stealing during the season. You can make your own conclusions.

By N Nine

January 3, 2009 12:59 PM | Link to this

On Hudson:: and he’s one native son of the area with multiple young kids and roots here

Hudson’s background sounds similar to what I heard before…Is this different from that “Peavy Alabama son” you said on October 6th: I don’t know, but it seems like the only way Jake Peavy could be a more perfect fit for the pitching-hungry Braves would be if he were a native Southerner.

What’s that? He was born in, raised in, and still lives in Alabama?

Well, hell, then what’s the holdup? Get that boy in a Braves uni, stat.

By Lew

January 3, 2009 1:06 PM | Link to this

N Nine-The one big difference between the Hudson and Peavy situations is that Hudson already signed a long term contract with the Braves. Peavy hasn’t. Unfortunately, it also looks like he never will. Apparently the Home Town Boy thing meant more to Hudson than it does to Peavy.

By JB

January 3, 2009 1:06 PM | Link to this

Phone calls have been made, believe me. DOB Sez

DOB, Is that phones calls from you to the Braves verifying things are in the works or phone calls made from the FO to other teams??

By Chris from the Rock

January 3, 2009 1:20 PM | Link to this

I do not see the Reds attempting to land Andruw after just signing Taveras. Their OF is set between Taveras, Bruce and Dickerson.

By dmack

January 3, 2009 1:36 PM | Link to this

I like it that the Braves are laying low on the radar. The Yankees (with Tex) proved that it can be beneficial if your opponents do not see you coming. This silence will produce something.

My best guess, the Braves reacquire Andruw, sign another LF and sign Derek Lowe.

By Andy K.

January 3, 2009 1:58 PM | Link to this

I beleive an Andruw Jones return to the Braves could be a steal for us, and of great benefit to our club and Andruw himself. If he does in fact keep his promise to come to Spring healthier and lighter, than even more reason to think so. I hope a deal does get made. Thn, he returns to where he had always been, to Bobby Cox, to where he feels comfortable, and they can work on turning around his year, except this is what I would do: Have him platoon in LF with Gregor Blanco, until he can prove he’s ready to be an everyday player. Then we could still have Schafer in CF.

By David O'Brien

January 3, 2009 2:07 PM | Link to this

Dback, are you just predicting that, or do you seriously want to have Andruw in CF and Francoeur in RF, coming off the years they had? If so, whose 25-man roster spot do you want Andruw to take? And please, do consider what he’s done over the past TWO FULL SEASONS before answering that.

You’d rather have him in center and keep Schafer in the minors all year? Or have Josh Anderson stuck in the minors yet again? Or Blanco, who’s tearing up the Venezuelan Winter League?

Let these Andruw numbers soak in for a moment:

Over the past two seasons, he’s hit .205 with 25 homers, 108 RBIs and a .297 OBP and .369 slugging percentage in 229 games, with 214 strikeouts and 97 walks in 781 at-bats.

And since his career really began to careen off the tracks just after the 2006 All-Star break, since July 21, 2006 to be exact, here’s what Andruw has done:

291 games, .209 average (208-for-993), 46 doubles, 46 homers, 149 RBI, .312 OBP, .401 slugging, 262 strikeouts, 137 walks, four stolen bases.

That’s 291 games with a .209 average, .312 OBP, .401 slugging. Find any player in baseball with worse numbers over that span in anything close to that many at-bats.

By joshgekko

January 3, 2009 2:18 PM | Link to this

Have you guys seen A.J. lately? He’s lost quite a bit of weight. I think he’s truly putting in the work to be productive again. And with the weight loss, he very well could regain any speed he lost in the outfield.. Just a thought.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 3, 2009 2:25 PM | Link to this

In regards to Francoeur’s supposed flawed swing, I’d be curious to find out if his swing in 2007 was considered different than the swing that got him selected as the 23rd person in the 2002 draft. We all know the swing was bad last year, but I still maintain that it was all because of the bulking up and that it robbed him of his flexibility and quickness. He’s about to become 25 years old in a few days and I, for one, can’t wait to see the leaner Jeff Francoeur when ST begins.

As for Andruw, my belief is that no team will trade for him. the Dodgers WILL release him prior to ST and then Andruw will be able to sign with whomever he chooses, and I think he would make a beeline back to Atlanta where he was comfortable and the Braves would only be out $400g. I know alot of you don’t wanna see it, but I’m intrigued by the thought of an Andruw with renewed purpose and Francoeur with a leaner body and Schafer. The way I see it, too many things would have to happen to put us over the hump and deliver us the division title. We have just as much of a chance to get there if rookies pan out (Hanson, Schafer), and if players revert back to past levels (Andruw, Francoeur), and if we can just have a minimum of injuries this year rather than going out and overspending for players. That’s my opinion and I know it’s in the vast minority, but it’s mine.

By JP

January 3, 2009 2:51 PM | Link to this

Andy K and all of the folks who think we should get Andruw back, it is easy to understand your loyalty to Andruw. But he has not shown the same kind of loyalty to his fans. He has been in the majors for almost 13 years. He has no excuse for coming in to spring training out of shape and refusing to make the adjustments necessary to hit at the major league level. I am under the impression that as we get older, we have to work harder and smarter to keep up with the competition. He has been compensated very well by us and the Dodgers. This is a display of disrespect, immaturity and unprofessionalism. Hey, I am a big Andruw fan, but the Braves are not in a position to take a chance on history just for the sake of fan loyalty. If you and I produced at the bottome tier in our profession, where would we be? Fired!! We need a proven big bat that will produce, not one that we hope will produce. So, for now, it is time to say so long to Andruw again at least until he has proven that he has come out of his slump. Wish him the best and hope that he gets his baseball life back together, for his sake and the sake of all his fans.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 3, 2009 2:54 PM | Link to this

I’m gonna travel back in time a bit with you guys. Back to a time when most Braves fans were enamored, or at least not willing to overly complain about his weaknesses at the plate. Yeah, I think we all had our days when it just drove us crazy when he was unable to keep from swinging at those low and outside pitches. We still, at the end of the day, were satisfied with the great defense and the homers and the RBIs that he gave us prior to 2007. We should understand that since 1996, he had only 1 season where he higher than .277 and that was 2000 when he hit .303. His two most productive seasons were 2005-2006 when he hit a total of 92 homers and drove in a total of 257 runs. All that was done hitting only .263 in 2005 and .262 in 2006. He never attained greatness at the plate but we were satisfied, and then there was the multitude of fly balls that never reached the outfield grass. Look at last year with Kotsay. He was considered a very good centerfielder, but he wasn’t Andruw and the other team scored more runs because of it, and that probably resulted in some of those 1 run losses that we were inundated with. If we were able to get a more fit Andruw Jones for $400g or even a minor trade, I fail to see where that’s gonna break our back.

By Jake W.

January 3, 2009 3:16 PM | Link to this

While taking a risk on Andruw Jones is appealng to some here, I would rather take that risk on Ben Sheets. I know there hasn’t been a lot of talk about him and the Braves are very reluctant to deal with a guy with his injury history, I think its worth the risk.

I believe DOB when he says the Braves have not been inactive, I just think with what happen with the Furcal thing they are being very gaurded until whatever they have is official and I can understand that. Reagardless of what happens i’m ready for Spring Training and to see Tommy Hanson and what the kid’s got.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 3, 2009 3:29 PM | Link to this

DOB

Good to see you back. Those phone calls you referred to being made, are you aware of what’s being discussed and are not at liberty to discuss yet? I’m just glad we know that something is being talked about.

As for Andruw, I would just like to see him bounce back to what he was prior to his fall from grace. As for whose place on the 25-man roster he’d take, it wouldn’t be Schafer. I’d like to see Schafer, Andruw, and Francoeur in the outfield in 2009, but only if they can be productive. Defensively speaking, the pitching staff should love it.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 3, 2009 3:35 PM | Link to this

Jake W I would rather take that risk on Ben Sheets

I agree with you. Sheets is the only pitcher I would take a chance on because he’s the only ace-type pitcher available. If he’s not on the Braves radar, I’d rather take my chances with Smoltz, Jurrjens, Vazquez, Hanson, and Campillo.

By Jeff Pace

January 3, 2009 3:37 PM | Link to this

No interest in looking backward on the Braves…only forward. The forward looks indicates we have finally become a small market/low budget team with little upside to compete with at least the Phillies and Mets. We need to do better at attracting at least one pitcher and a power hitting outfielder.

By KC

January 3, 2009 3:37 PM | Link to this

Random: If you sent me an email, I didn’t get it. Please re-send. embassypro@hotmail.com

By JB

January 3, 2009 3:38 PM | Link to this

Given the state of the bullpen a Soriano ($6 mil) trade to the Dodgers for Druw would be a wash. Did anyone ever find out what Soriano’s mystery ailment was? $6 MIL is a bit much for a setup man.

By Random

January 3, 2009 3:42 PM | Link to this

Braveheart: “He wasn’t a lucky hitter. He was just an average hitter.”

Agreed that he was an average hitter.

And he was also lucky (eg, BABIP, RBI opps). It was that luck that made him look like a better hitter than he actually was, and which is still fooling a sizeable portion of denizens here today.

Lew: “Oh and BTW-Acting like a p!$$y little B!tch is making you look like a jerk-not me.”

You have absolutely zero sense of humor, do you? Why don’t you jump on BravesFanInRockies’ @$$, too — he also picked up and went along with your own torture riff.

I guess you don’t read the parenthetical, straight comments, do you?

(Idiot.)

By JP

January 3, 2009 3:50 PM | Link to this

Jerald, in response to your 2:51 post, I don’t believe you are in the minority with your thinking. Everyone would like to save money and hope for everything to work out for us to win the World Series. But we have some holes that need to be filled and you have to have a back up plan because you don’t know who we will be depending on when the season is over. When you play 162 games, a lot of things have to go right for you or a lot of things have to go wrong for everyone else in the division.

In regards to your 2:54 post, there is now way that we could say that Andrew could have saved us anymore runs. He was hurt and didn’t want to play. Our ERA for the past 3 seasons was 4.46, 4.11, and 4.6. In those same seasons we averaged 4.65, 5 and 5.24 runs per game. It appears that our poor pitching (some due to injuries and worn out bull pen) and lack of run production was the cause for the majority of our 1 run losses. The other I would have to give to timely hitting.

Still glad to see that there are Andruw fans out there. I am one as well, but as I said earlier, we would be in much better shape with Jermaine Dye. He has hit 2.80 over the last 5 years and hit an average of 32 homers per year.

By Lew

January 3, 2009 4:14 PM | Link to this

Yes-Random the Just. Random the Fair. Random The Profound ( I’m certain we’re all impressed with your wit, wisdom and Purity of Heart and Spirit). Whatever Dude. I’m not so big an Idiot that I can’t see through the little sniping remarks ever since your profundity was called into question.

I know. I’m And Idiot. I’m thuggish. I’m mean and nasty. I’m a jerk. I can use parenthesis, too. Does that make me profound as well?

By StingerSplash

January 3, 2009 4:21 PM | Link to this

BravesFaninRockies,

You could not be more wrong about Paul Johnson and his offense. Look at it. Look at the formation. You know what it really is, when you get right down to it? The old run and shoot, except that Tech prefers - for now - to run more option out of it. PJ’s offenses at Hawaii threw the ball a ton because they could. He isn’t worried about getting “NFL-type” players at Tech. He wants kids who want to be there and want to succeed, on and off the field. And he’ll get them. He is a top-flight recruiter and has a handful of very good recruiters on his staff. So the Jackets dropped a stinky in the punch bowl against LSU. That offense that won’t get NFL types shredded, and I mean shredded, in order, Florida State, Miami and Georgia. Think any of those guys are going to the NFL? He doesn’t need 6-6, 320-pound tackles and 6-4, 305-pound guards to run this offense. To more pressing matters — the Dodgers agreeing to release or trade Andruw. Will that mean cash getting freed up to retain Manny? I just don’t see Andruw back in a Braves uni. He’s 32. His waist size is 32 and then some. He was great while it lasted here, but it is time to move on. See him in Cooperstown with a Braves cap on when he gets inducted (and he should, because for 10 years-plus he was the best defensive CF in the game and a deadly power hitter).

By StingerSplash

January 3, 2009 4:24 PM | Link to this

Funny how the ESPN PBP guy for the Vols-Jayhawks game at Phog Allen today is … Dave O’Brien. Hmmm. Mesmells a plot by the O’Briens of the world to take over. (Hope Jerry and George enjoy the limo ride).

By Doc Holiday

January 3, 2009 4:26 PM | Link to this

If Braves bring AJ back he shouldnt hit other than 8th. I dont care if he will get less pitches to hit there, he will get the same pitches even if he hits in front of albert pujols, chipper jones or Alex Rodriguez.

I dont like the idea of bringing him back, we already have a player we need to make a turn around (JF). Thinks will get even worse if our chances depend on the turn around of 2/3 of our OF and the other one being a rookie or a 2nd year player. The prognosis is now good.

On the other hand, WHAT IF AJ is able to mount a giant comeback?

Once again……you dont wanna built your team around too many WHAT IFs.

By JP

January 3, 2009 4:30 PM | Link to this

Hey guys, I thought you were supposed to use 4 letter words when you wanted to cuss (oops curse) somebody out. Maybe I’m the idiot.

By JP

January 3, 2009 4:33 PM | Link to this

P.S. not sure if it was ok to use the parenthesis.

By David O'Brien

January 3, 2009 4:37 PM | Link to this

Stinger, that’s the former Braves (and Marlins) broadcaster Dave O’Brien. We were traveling with Marlins for several years, you can imagine the confusion until I finally stopped staying in team hotels….

JP: You must’ve missed the last weeks of the season, when the “mystery” of Soriano was solved. As has been written here several times then and since, he had nerve-transposition surgery near the end of the season, to move the nerve over the elbow bump so that it wouldn’t get irritated any longer as it slid over the bone. It’s similar to surgery Reitsma had a few years ago.

Soriano also had a bone spur removed at the same time.

Until he begins throwing off mound this month, Braves won’t have a good idea whether he’ll be ready for start of spring training. But they’re optimistic he will be, or shortly thereafter.

You’re not going to get anything for him in a trade until he pitches in a bunch of games, however. So really probably not even any reason to discuss that. No team’s going to take on a $6.1 mill salary for a pitcher who may or may not have his health issue resolved.

By David O'Brien

January 3, 2009 4:39 PM | Link to this

By the way, Stinger, that was a mighty fine game to watch from the Phog, wasn’t it? KU’s youngsters are growing up.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 3, 2009 4:39 PM | Link to this

In regards to your 2:54 post, there is now way that we could say that Andrew could have saved us anymore runs. He was hurt and didn’t want to play JP

His weight is why he was hurt. I hope he gets that under control. The one thing I know is that I saw way too many balls fall in last season than I was used to seeing, and that had to account for some of those 1-run losses. But as you said, some of the other losses, were because of our tired-a* bullpen and that falls squarely on Bobby. As for Jermaine Dye, I wouldn’t be against that type of signing, but haven’t heard a peep anywhere about that possibility. But if Dye were signed, I’d hope that Schafer is ready to go in center. We need to cut down on the number of balls that fell for hits in 2008.

By JP

January 3, 2009 5:22 PM | Link to this

DOB, regarding your 4:37 post, that was JB talking about Soriano. I might need to change my screen name. See how the 2 could be confused.

By Vick

January 3, 2009 5:24 PM | Link to this

Go Falcons!

By Missionairy Positions In Uzbekistan

January 3, 2009 5:29 PM | Link to this

That obviously misinformed Peter Gammons continues to bring up the economy and its effect on baseball in his blogs. He must not have read this blog and realized that the worst financial calamity since the Great Depression would have NO effect upon how baseball conducts its business. It is going to very interesting when the truth gets out—and Congress WILL look into it—about how the Yankees’ site for new stadium was at first appraised for around 30 million. When the realization hit home about that appraisal amount not justifying the HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of bond issues, all of a sudden the appraisal of land jumped to 240 million. Well, anyhow read Gammons and MAYBE learn something pertaining to how global economics impacts a highly financed game—BUT still a GAME.

By JJ

January 3, 2009 5:52 PM | Link to this

DOB

Do you think The Braves are More interested in Lowe or Sheets?

i Personaly think Sheets would be better for them but i would also like to see the Braves keep Lowe out of the Mets hands. what do you think?

By Jim

January 3, 2009 6:05 PM | Link to this

Premise: Toronto wants to rebuild and conserve payroll expenditures after death of owner.

Proposed deal, as Braves have deeper pockets this year than do BlueJays.

Trade Yunel, JF, Morton, Rios for Halladay, Wells or Rios and Eckstein.

Questions: not sure of length of present contracts for these BlueJays. If they are all one-year remaining it may not be a good deal, but if they have two or more years left, on average (for pitcher and OFs), then go for it.

Eckstein is not Yunel defensively, but at least he’s an experienced, talented player who has won a few places.

Wells is a CF; if Schafer makes starting line-up, he could play RF. Rios is a RF.

By AustinBraves

January 3, 2009 6:14 PM | Link to this

You can forget Lowe or Sheets the Braves are going to trade for an Ace. I think Halladay or Greinke or maybe Floyd. Watch and see!!!

By Efrim

January 3, 2009 6:39 PM | Link to this

You can forget Lowe or Sheets the Braves are going to trade for an Ace. I think Halladay or Greinke or maybe Floyd.

Floyd? Floyd who? I’m unaware of an “ace” with the last name Floyd.

By NR

January 3, 2009 6:52 PM | Link to this

Why do people keep saying they want to keep Lowe away from the Mets..The Mets didnt win the division They didnt even make it to the playoffs…shouldn’t you be worried about the Phillies - if you get Lowe you should worry about taking down the Phillies…The Mets couldnt care less about the Braves at this point.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 3, 2009 6:52 PM | Link to this

Stinger,

Johnson may be using a run-and-shoot formation at Tech but since he started running the option at Navy, his teams have never tried to throw the ball and have never done well in the passing game when they’ve needed it. (I actually think they ran the same formations at Navy FWIW.)

You may think Johnson doesn’t need to recruit NFL-caliber players at Tech to succeed, and maybe he can “coach em up” enough to be competitive. But if you’re coaching a BCS conference team in the southeast, you need talent plus teaching skills.

Jim Grobe at Wake is the only guy I’ve known to be successful at that for several years in a row (recently), and it’s understandable there because Wake is such a small school (6,500 students) with no national recruiting base. Plus, his margin for error is tiny. A few wrong guesses on players or a couple of injuries and you go from 9-3 to 5-7 in a hurry.

Tech has the size, the reputation and the recruiting base to compete if Johnson runs a system that can attract top-flight players.

When you have to play not only the ACC sked (esp. Va. Tech, BC, and now Carolina with Butch Davis) and also your main rival Georgia every year, it’s hard to win with a gimmicky offense and players who aren’t big, fast and strong (plus smart).

I just think he’s going to have to go to something more like a spread or a pro-style or some combination or the talent will dry up.

By David O'Brien

January 3, 2009 6:53 PM | Link to this

JP, sorry about that….

Well, Cardinals just intercepted on a rare very bad mistake by Ryan. This isn’t looking good at all for Falcons, down 28-17 with 2 minutes left in third quarter….

JJ: I think Lowe, just because the Braves are as wary of Sheets’ elbow as most other teams are. Lowe’s price tag, in terms of both years and dollars, could be down enough to make the Braves make a bid for him.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 3, 2009 7:02 PM | Link to this

Jerald,

The Andruw bird has flown. He’s not the answer, unless the question is, do you want to waste a roster spot on a(nother) guy who will destroy your offense.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 3, 2009 7:16 PM | Link to this

Lew,

From last night’s 9:25/9:42:

The player Francoeur might aspire to become if he gets things figured out is Joe Carter rather than Dawson.

He filled up the traditional stat sheet. For 12 straight years, you could almost bank on him hitting 25-30 HR and 35-40 doubles while driving in right at 100 runs, even though his OBP was right around .300. His average with RISP was not much different than his overall BA.

He was an unusual player in that for a run producer, he didn’t walk at all, but he also didn’t strike out a lot either.

Dawson was a lot more likely to hit 20 HR than 30 (he hit 49 one season, the only year he hit more than 32), and more likely to drive in 75 than 100.

We agree that Frenchy probably never will be a big OBP guy, so his challenge will be learning how to drive the ball all over the place like Carter did to compensate.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 3, 2009 7:43 PM | Link to this

Well, the birds bought and paid for that playoff loss. Unbelievable! 3rd and 16 and a wide open man. Just ain’t fair.

By ncscoots

January 3, 2009 7:49 PM | Link to this

Braveheart, true that, on you car-driving analogy. Remind me never to drive interstates in Atlanta if Jeff is out and about, LOL.

For the sake of accuracy, though, it’s not yet possible to determine if Francoeur has been lucky OR unlucky in his first three years. A career BABIP of right around .300 (average), but some some pretty good fluctuations each year. And last year, he was, well, bad, but probably also a little unlucky (.274 BABIP).

Unfortunately, there are plenty of players with career BABIP above or below .300, so there’s no saying where Francoeur’s own personal mean may lie. If he is, indeed, merely average, you would think that, next year, he might hit into some good luck for a change. But he might also be one those guys with a hitting style that mitigates against a higher BABIP.

Anywho, watching him next year will probably be like a date with Miss America, or one with your favorite oral surgeon. Depending.

By Lew

January 3, 2009 7:55 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies- I wasn’t really comparing Frenchy with Dawson (though your Carter comparison is pretty good-Hopefully). I was just pointing out-in reference to the preceding conversation about OBP-that their respective OBP’s were not that far apart and found it interesting that based on that particular stat, Frenchy was considered worthy of suckdom while Dawson has often been discussed for enshrinement. It was just an obtuse way of stating that I feel OBP is given much more weight than it deserves.

By Daybed Wagmoe

January 3, 2009 7:59 PM | Link to this

Jerald at 7:43 — my thoughts exactly. What a terrible, terrible play by the defense at that moment. At the least they could’ve held them there at 3rd and 16 and had a chance to have the offense take over with 2 minutes left at mid-field.

This loss stings an awful lot, but what a season for the Falcons.

By Anders

January 3, 2009 8:02 PM | Link to this

Well at least I don’t have to wait for blog updates to get my Mets hot stove info. Just saw Minaya on the MLB network. Mentioned their pursuit of Lowe which isn’t breaking news but he did say that they have their eyes on other pitchers such as Wolf. Found it interesting that he didn’t mention Oliver Perez at all through the whole 15 minutes. Not sure what it means but by completely ignoring him appears to be some kind of gamesmanship on his part. He did go out of his way to mention that the Mets have a great working relationship with Boras who’s been getting accolades from wall to wall on the new network for those who’ve been watching.

John Heyman reported that Boras wants the Mets to up their offer. Suprise,surprise.

Hey DOB, any chance of you making an appearance from time to time on the MLB network? They definetly have a quality production there. Should be awesome once the season starts.

By nolie

January 3, 2009 8:15 PM | Link to this

Frenchy was considered worthy of suckdom while Dawson has often been discussed for enshrinement. Lew

it is also widely held that his very poor OBP has played a part in keeping him out of that same hall. If his OBP was .360+ I’d be willing to bet that he would already be in there or at least have come closer than he has so far. I’m with Poz, I think Bly needs to get in and I wouldn’t mind seeing Rice make it in his last try.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 3, 2009 8:16 PM | Link to this

Lew,

I actually think Dawson got a mulligan if you look at the way he performed over his career — he was wildly erratic as a hitter from year to year, and had no idea about the strike zone. In his younger days he was a graceful OF with a terrific arm who took a ferocious approach at the plate. He was a very entertaining guy to watch. Of course, his knees were a wreck and that eventually killed his defense.

Dawson’s career stat line is very similar to Garret Anderson’s, and I can’t imagine GA getting the same consideration for the HOF that Dawson received. (For one thing, Anderson never hit 49 HR in one year.)

Dawson was one of those players who looked so good when he was healthy that you may have not paid attention to his numbers. Like Dale Murphy — who was a much more well-rounded offensive player — when Dawson’s wheels went, his whole game pretty much fell apart.

By Lew

January 3, 2009 8:17 PM | Link to this

Anders-From what I’ve seen on the MLB Network, with all those Ex Players, it doesn’t surprise me in the least that they like Boras.

I was listening to XM Home Plate yesterday and Billy Ripken was spouting how great it was that the Yankees were spending all that money. Guess it depends on who’s lining who’s pockets.

As for Minaya’s offer to Lowe-I think if I were Lowe’s agent, I would have laughed my substantial behind off, too. It was a pretty low ball offer. He’s bound to get a whole lot more than a 3-$36mil deal, IMO.

By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)

January 3, 2009 8:25 PM | Link to this

The Falcons overachieved. Nobody would have picked them to make the playoffs. Matty Ice had the best rookie season of any QB since Dan Marino. But, today’s loss was all too predictable and I had the Cardinals winning this game and they did just that.

Those dirty birds just got outplayed, out coached and were beaten by a better football team playing at home today. Congratulations to Curt Warner and company.

Don’t hang your heads Falcons Fans, it was a good season. Arthur Blank and the coaching staff will do everything in their power to improve this football team for next season. I just wish I could say the same thing about my Braves.

By Anders

January 3, 2009 8:27 PM | Link to this

Lew

Anders-From what I’ve seen on the MLB Network, with all those Ex Players, it doesn’t surprise me

Agreed. They definetly are going to need a little more balance on their panels.

As for Lowe. I agree again. I thought 3 years at $45 mil would get him (with an option 4th). I think the Mets started low hoping maybe to ed up at about $40-42 rsnge. I still think Minaya will snap up Perez if he misses Lowe. Will cost more years but less $’s per.

By Savannah Guy

January 3, 2009 8:27 PM | Link to this

Funny to see some of these AJ conversations go full circle about twenty times since mid-season 07.

Blame AJ’s troubles on his weight, approach at the plate, mechanics, motivation, general attitude, nagging injuries, too many cars in his collection, lack of concentration, lack of motivation, living large, receiving too much batting advice from too many people and then the popular old standby… uh, his being a bit slow on the uptake.

Thing is, to varying degrees all of those issues and conditions contributed to the demise of a Mays-like outfielder and a ‘potentially’ great power hitter. The slow to learn part trumps all of the others. Maybe I’m being too tough on the kid. Perhaps it’s just too many cheeseburgers, too many cars and too many distractions for the rags to riches kid. Maybe Jack Llewyllen could help.

Playing at the major league level is tough enough. All players are talented. All players slump. Almost all players make loads of money. All players arrive at a point in which they are financially set yet they remain highly motivated and ultra competitive. Others get rich, live rich, coast along, rest on past achievements and wallow in the many comforts of athletic accomplishments. Combine a coast along attitude without intense competitive drive with the oft demonstrated inability to figure out how to get out of a pitiful batting slump and you have a picture of Andruw Jones, the soon to be ex MLB player.

Go ahead, enjoy your memories of AJ’s natural talent and defensive skills… savor the contributions of the good kid from Curacao who enjoyed chasing and usually grabbing everything in the outfield… but try to resist thinking that we would have a bargain by signing him at less than $1 million… or half of that.

His negative contributions would cost the team much more than what we’d pay to have him back in Atlanta, killing rallies, sucking the energy out of the clubhouse, swingin’ and missin’ and grinnin’, being a distraction and generally making a negative statement to every other competitive player that might consider signing with the Braves or minor league talent waiting to bust in.

Here’s hoping AJ has a nice life, a continued career and a nice home in Atlanta. Just not another Braves uniform please.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 3, 2009 8:28 PM | Link to this

Floyd? Floyd who? I’m unaware of an “ace” with the last name Floyd Efrim

He’s talking about Gavin Floyd, starting pitcher for the White Sox

BravesFanInRockies You know, everyone on this blog has an opinion of what he’d doing given the chance. You wouldn’t take Andruw even for $400g because he would take up a roster spot. I on the other hand would in a second because I know if he should fail, he would fail early and I could then release him only having lost $400g. You on the hand would let another team sign him for $400g and take a chance that he’s done in this sport. I like my option better because the upside is larger if he succeeds. I’m also amazed at how many bloggers know deep down in their heart that Andruw does stand a chance. Geez, I’m not about to sit here and tell you that I’m sure he’ll bounce back (same with Francouer), but life is all about chances. The Phillies and Mets are so much better than the Braves right now, and signing Lowe, Dunn, Burrell, or Abreu is not gonna close that gap appreciably. So, unless Sheets signs and has a breakout healthy year, and Manny signs with us, and Smoltz comes roaring back with new ace Hanson in tow, why shouldn’t we roll the dice?

By Efrim

January 3, 2009 8:42 PM | Link to this

Jerald

He’s talking about Gavin Floyd, starting pitcher for the White Sox

Right. But he isn’t an ace…..unless you think just because he won 17 games he should be considered one.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 3, 2009 8:43 PM | Link to this

Jerald,

We’re agreed here in that I just don’t think Andruw’s going to rebound enough to justify giving him a roster spot and you do.

Here’s the problem I see with picking up Andruw, even if you can sign him for the minimum and you hit JF and Andruw 7th and 8th in the order. (God help us if you hit them higher up than that.)

Even at their best, they’re going to make outs 70 percent of the time. So with the pitcher’s spot, you’re essentially conceding an inning two out of every three times they come up, or two team at bats a game. One-two-three. The third and the sixth innings of every game are automatic outs.

Now if you surrounded those guys with the ‘27 Yankees’ lineup, then maybe the Braves would score enough runs to overlook their performance.

But last I checked, the Braves weren’t the ‘27 Yankees. They need offensive players they can depend on to produce, not guys you sign and cross your fingers and hope they’re going to make a comeback.

Again, when you’ve missed the playoffs three years in a row and have most recently lost 90 games, it’s time for proven performance not gambles.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 3, 2009 8:46 PM | Link to this

Coach,

Agreed on the Falcons. It was a nice, improbable year. They have a good foundation and we all know what kind of owner Blank is.

Atlanta deserved a feel-good story.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 3, 2009 8:46 PM | Link to this

*If his OBP was .360+ I’d be willing to bet that he would already be in there or at least have come closer than he has so far. * Nolie

I’d have a hard time believing that you could walk your way in the HOF. I’ll put it to you like this. Andre Dawson will never make it into the HOF before Jim Rice. There’s no comparison between the two players, and Rice has the OBP. But something else has kept him out.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 3, 2009 8:55 PM | Link to this

Right. But he isn’t an ace…..unless you think just because he won 17 games he should be considered one Efrim

You wanted to know who was being reference and I told you. Why add more than was intended. That’s what I get for helping.

By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)

January 3, 2009 8:58 PM | Link to this

My two cents on Andruw Jones.

His career is over. At least as an everyday player.

Nevertheless, AJ will go down in Braves history as the best center fielder to ever put on the uniform. The man is an absolute mortal lock for the Hall of Fame. For ten years he was the best defensive center fielder in the game of baseball, bar none.

His decade long long dominance of the gold glove award at his position is testament to this fact. 10 gold gloves, 5 all-star appearances, 1 silver slugger, the 2005 major league player of the year along with the Hank Aaron award is quit the haul of hardware.

But no, I wouldn’t let him be the bat boy right now. His God given physical talent has vanished like the wind. As for why, I wouldn’t even want to speculate. I’m just thankful that I got to see him play. Next stop, Cooperstown.

By Anders

January 3, 2009 9:01 PM | Link to this

Efrim

I’m watching the rangers/Caps game right now. Staal of the Rangers just had a fight with Semin on the Caps. You have to watch for this fight highlights. At the end of the fight Semin is pounding down on Staal with boths fists like Ralphie in Christmas story. It’s hilarious. The announcers were laughing out loud. Just to add insult to injury he got tossed because his jersey wasn’t tied down. After seeing his style I can only assume he figured he’d never be in a fight.

BTW 2-1 Caps. Ovechkin got another. What a monster. I expect the Yanks to grab him someday.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 3, 2009 9:02 PM | Link to this

Jerald,

Rice deserves to be in the HOF, no question. The only justification I’ve ever heard for him not making it is that he had an awful relationship with the media when he was a player — even though he was arguably one of the four or five most feared hitters in the AL during the majority of his career.

He may actually get in this time because a new generation of writers/voters who didn’t deal with him day to day can look at his performance and realize that he has truly earned to be admitted.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 3, 2009 9:04 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies

Yknow, I’m not even talking about signing Andruw and having him play all year to see if he succeeds or fails. I’m saying the Braves should sign him for $400g and find out what he’s got in ST. I’m sure the coaching staff can figure it out before leaving camp. Francoeur is a different story, but Andruw is a win/win. He plays good, keep him. He plays bad, release him.

By Efrim

January 3, 2009 9:05 PM | Link to this

Just my opinion, but I see no reason why the Braves should be interested in Jones. That would mean that they failed on acquiring a middle of the order hitter. Failed miserably. Braves really can’t afford to go light on LF. “Light” is a Matt Diaz/Brandon Jones platoon. That just isn’t going to get it done. It would be fine if we were certain that Jeff Francoeur, Kelly Johnson and Casey Kotchman were going to produce years like their 2007’s…..and if Chipper were to play 150 games. But since you can’t really bank on any of that, it’s important that they make an offensive upgrade in LF.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 3, 2009 9:07 PM | Link to this

.. or truly deserved to be admitted.

Attention’s divided between the blog and the Colts-Bolts.

By Anders

January 3, 2009 9:28 PM | Link to this

My two cents on AJ. Some on here have said a number of times today about bringing AJ back on the cheap “What have we got to lose?” I would say you risk losing the interest of any decent FA pitcher.

By Dan

January 3, 2009 9:36 PM | Link to this

Andruw Jones, no. Why? Even if he is free he is terrible now and Cox will play him every single day. It reminds me of the people who wanted to offer him arbitration and bring him back for 2008. The Braves should be done with Andruw Jones.

Enough nostalgia. Any other player who played like Andruw Jones these past two years wouldn’t be wanted here? Why Andruw? No offense to the guy, but he looks very much done.

By cw

January 3, 2009 9:59 PM | Link to this

If Andruw gets released and really wants to play here. We should invite him to spring training and he can compete for one of the outfeild spots.

By Vol

January 3, 2009 10:01 PM | Link to this

Bad day for a Vols and Falcons fan.

By BravoMan

January 3, 2009 10:34 PM | Link to this

Lowe rejected the Met’s 3yr $36 mil offer. Philly, Braves, and Mets considered to be the favorites. Lowe apparently is askin for 16 mil. Would Wren give him a 3yr 48mil contract with a 4th year option? Why not? We attempted to give injury-plagued Burnett 5yrs $80mil so I think we should get this deal done to make us look legit and to spite the Mets. I know he’s old but we’ve got the money to spend.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 3, 2009 10:45 PM | Link to this

BravoMan (10:34)

What you said.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 3, 2009 11:02 PM | Link to this

Dan (9:36),

That’s the fear every Brave fan should have about Andruw. Not that the team would treat him like another player who had no history with the club (and would be cut loose if he doesn’t perform in ST) but like the prodigal son who would get more than his fair share of opportunities.

By Salty Dawg

January 3, 2009 11:06 PM | Link to this

BravoMan

Lowe rejected the Met’s 3yr $36 mil offer. Philly, Braves, and Mets considered to be the favorites. Lowe apparently is askin for 16 mil. Would Wren give him a 3yr 48mil contract with a 4th year option? Why not? We attempted to give injury-plagued Burnett 5yrs $80mil so I think we should get this deal done to make us look legit and to spite the Mets. I know he’s old but we’ve got the money to spend.

I say offer him $45/3 with an easily vesting 4th year with a take-it-or-leave-it clause.

By Jeff

January 3, 2009 11:06 PM | Link to this

Mr. Wren: Forget this free-agent stuff. It has never worked for us in the past. Also, forget trades for pitchers and outfielders. These one year rentals have bolted at the slightest opportunity — they aren’t Braves, just greedy jerks who have good seasons under Bobby and go somewhere and fulfill their greed. Its just dumb. We proved in September that we could beat anybody. We just have to have some consistant play and avoid injuries. Don’t blow all are money now. Lets see how we do. Then, we’ll have money in July to pick up a needed piece. Just sign Smoltz and Glavine. If they break down, we can deal with it with Hanson. We don’t need anymore outfielders. We have plenty in the program. If Frenchy sucks in Spring Training, then cut him — he has no trade value. We can win the Division with what we have now. Please, don’t trade half of our infield for some overpriced pitcher or outfielder. Oh, for the love of God, do not acquire Andruw Jones.

By BravoMan

January 3, 2009 11:14 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies, Thanks for the support lol. Im not getting my hopes up because of how the offseason has gone for us already (I don’t blame Wren), but if you look at the situation it’s not too bad from the Braves perspective, that is if you want Lowe. The Phillies probably won’t offer too high of a contract because of the money they’ve already invested in Ibanez. The Mets have already said they don’t want to spend that much and I personally won’t think they’ll offer more than 14mil. The Braves have got the money and I trust they’ll make a 3yr offer to Lowe with a 4th yr option for 15-16mil per. The Mets are not in a postion were they have to get this deal done, and in my humble opinion the Braves are in that postion if they want a top of the rotation guy. This is a risk no doubt because of age, but sometimes you’ve gotta make tough choices if you want to compete and that’s exactly what Wren promised the Braves would do in 09…compete!

By BravoMan

January 3, 2009 11:25 PM | Link to this

Jeff, “Forget this free-agent stuff. It has never worked for us in the past.”

One word…Maddux. Best Free-agent signing in Braves history, and arguablly ever.

By NR

January 3, 2009 11:29 PM | Link to this

If you think Lowe can be your ace your Crazy he’s at least a #3

By Steve from OH

January 3, 2009 11:30 PM | Link to this

BravoMan, I agree with you re: Lowe. Signing him is definitely a step in the right direction.

By Chopper

January 3, 2009 11:34 PM | Link to this

Too bad the Falcons couldn’t pull out one more miracle.

By jed

January 3, 2009 11:38 PM | Link to this

savannah guy

nice post. i tend to agree with you, and i appreciated your nonbashing tone. one of the real pleasures of going to see braves games while he was here was watching andruw track balls in CF. he was sheerly amazing—poetry in motion for certain.

to everyone else: IF we acquired abreu (i’d platoon him w/diaz) and lowe, do you think we could win the division? frankly, despite the doom and gloom posts and articles, i think we could. the bigger point being that i dont think we’re that far away from contending. but i’m sincerely interested in what yall have to say.

By StingerSplash

January 3, 2009 11:39 PM | Link to this

BravesFaninRockies,

Take this FWIW - but I happen to know Coach Johnson personally and have for almost a dozen years. This is the same offense he’s been running for 23 years, at Georgia Southern, at Hawaii, at Navy, at Georgia Southern again and at Navy again. He knows what he’s doing. I’ve been in his office with him as he diagrammed plays on the dry erase board. He’ll get guys who can play in the NFL - maybe not the receivers, but receivers at Tech will be asked to block first. He’s had guys in his system who have gone on to the pros.

DOB, Yeah, I know there’s two different DOBs out there (hope you got the Seinfeld reference from a great episode and the other DOB, the doppelganger DOB if you will, is doing Red Sox games now, no?). And I watched most of the first half of the Vols-JHawks. Yow. Bill Self’s babies played like grownups.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 3, 2009 11:48 PM | Link to this

StingerSplash,

We’ll see if Coach Johnson can defy the odds. My assumption is, when major programs largely abandoned the triple option as a primary offense about 20 years ago, they did so for a good reason. Otherwise a lot of teams would still be using it.

Same goes for the run and shoot.

By cmac1919

January 3, 2009 11:50 PM | Link to this

Heck, Wren was willing to overpay for injury prone Burnett, so he might as well give Lowe a 16mm per year deal.

shrugs If we saw A.J. Burnett as an ace, I don’t see why we wouldn’t see Lowe as one also (even though he’s up there in age)

By Anders

January 4, 2009 12:00 AM | Link to this

Bravoman

The Mets have already said they don’t want to spend that much and I personally won’t think they’ll offer more than 14mil.

Where exactly did you see that the Mets said this? Minaya was on the MLB Network tonight and said no such thing. They’re lowballing hoping to get another bargain and then they can add someone like Wolf or Garland as a number 5. If they have to pay $15 mil or so per then they will go with one of their young guys (Niese) as a number 5.

Also, I think Lowe would take $14 mil per from the Mets rather than $15 mil per from the Braves as he is on record saying he wants to pitch for a contender.

The Mets are not in a postion were they have to get this deal done,

Minaya has repeatedly said, including tonight, that he needs to find another starter and maybe two. Now if you mean they don’t have to sign Lowe well I guess that can be argued, but they do need another starter and it appears Lowe is who they prefer.

This is a risk no doubt because of age

I disagree. When it was first reported Lowe wanted 5 years I would agree with you. But now at 3 years with an option I view it as less of a risk than Burnett at 5, given Lowe’s history of durability.

I think the market for Lowe will heat up this week.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 4, 2009 12:02 AM | Link to this

jed,

I like Abreu. He’d certainly upgrade the offense in LF. Add Lowe and with Vazquez you have a much better roster than at the end of 2008, esp. if Soriano is healthy and Moylan can come back before the All Star break.

By Random

January 4, 2009 12:05 AM | Link to this

Not Tug, of course — Sparky.

(Yeah, it only took me 24 hours to catch that.)

By Hurricane Hazle

January 4, 2009 12:38 AM | Link to this

Are those really good strip clubs still available for the rotund Curacao Carbohydrate Cruncher?? By all means bring the Chubby One back. Of course there is Smoltzie hanging around like Bret Favre in heat, Glavine still trying to get his Union Organizer card to help the UAW. How in the heck did we let Hampton get away?? Spahnie is probably turning over in his grave while ruminating—“Heck, I could have probably been invited to Spring Training”. Maybe they will STILL invite him to spring training along with Lew.

By KC

January 4, 2009 12:56 AM | Link to this

MLB Trade Rumors is relaying a report that the Phillies and the Braves are the primary competitors with the Mets for D.Lowe’s services.

Not sure if that’s substantiated, but I’ll be SHOCKED if the Braves don’t make a very real run at Lowe. Seriously. Shocked.

The Braves can give Lowe the 16 million per season that he’s looking for… and they probably should. Particularly if he’s like to go the Mets or the Phillies, if not Atlanta. Keeping him from landing with a division rival is all the more reason to get Lowe.

Lowe (along with Jurrjens, Vazquez, and possibly Hanson and Smoltz) would instantly give the Braves a chance to compete in the East, and keeping him out of a PHI or NY uni would keep the competition from getting out of hand.

By jed

January 4, 2009 1:00 AM | Link to this

BFIR

i like abreu as well. and if francouer doesnt rebound, you could certainly play abreu every day, and use a platoon to replace francouer—diaz and a lefty bat. there has got to be a plan B for RF this season.

By uga-brave

January 4, 2009 1:14 AM | Link to this

THE HAWK IS A HALL OF FAMEER.

andre dawson. , put fear into pitchers heads.

he had two great runs, one with the expos and one with the cubs.

the guy was always feared.

By cmac1919

January 4, 2009 1:38 AM | Link to this

“Not sure if that’s substantiated, but I’ll be SHOCKED if the Braves don’t make a very real run at Lowe. Seriously. Shocked.”

I’m still at a lost as to why the Braves interested in Lowe have been minimal to none to this point.

Why? Because he had atittude problems in the past? Please, the Braves are in no position to keep that stick in their a** now. It’s time to take a chance on players(which is why part of me thinks the Braves should heavily pursue Manny Ramirez)

By Train Wreck Bystander

January 4, 2009 1:45 AM | Link to this

I read Olney’s piece on ESPN earlier. It’s heartbreaking to see how far AJ has fallen.

If he were playing well in winter ball, I’d say the Braves should roll the dice on him. But if what that piece says is true, then I think the Braves must pass on AJ.

He’s only 32… not too late to turn it around. But he has to get it into his head and get motivated. Perhaps a sports psychologist would help. Repeating the same failed approaches over and over again and expecting success just isn’t going to work.

The story didn’t mention the Nats, but every other ex-Brave seems to end up passing through there.

By uga-brave

January 4, 2009 1:48 AM | Link to this

keith brooking,

not much to say. all of the atl. home boys disapoint.

bring back andruw, he would be bettter.

for any falcons fans, brooking is somewhat of a embarasment.

brooking is supposed to cover the tight end, or the running back out of the backfield, he did neither tonight.

nice job keith.

you play for a great defensive coach.

van gorder should chew your a* out.

i hope people realize that keith brooking is somewhat overated.

he stinks.

By fastasballs

January 4, 2009 2:24 AM | Link to this

The blog has been a good read the past few days.

I think the Braves are in on Lowe, but you’re not going to hear much about it based on how well Wren’s earlier, media drama deals went. It’s been wayyyy too silent in Braves land considering the money left to spend & the holes that remain in the rotation & the outfield.

A trade is possible as well, so as DOB said I’d expect something shortly.

Regarding Andruw the only way I could see him signing with the Braves is IF the Dodgers outright release him & he signs a minor league deal before spring training. I don’t see anyone willing to trade & pay 5 million dollars to an overweight player who has basically lost his talent in a matter of 2 1/2 seasons.

If he tears it up in the spring then I could see taking the chance with him & using the roster spot. If he doesn’t he can be released, but there’s always the Cox factor in these decisions so there’s always the chance a better player loses the roster spot because Cox has a “feeling”.

I really am pulling for Francoeur this season, for his sake & the team’s. He’s never going to be a great hitter, but if he could produce like he did his first 2 1/2 seasons he’s a plus. If has another bad season this year he’s probably playing elsewhere in 2010.

I’m still shocked about Utah did to Alabama. I know their line was a mess, but Utah really came to play & show the nation what they were made of.

My Hokies open with Alabama next season in the Georgia Dome so I’ll have to make the trip to that one. I couldn’t make the Orange Bowl this season & frankly didn’t want to go because Beamer has a history of letting his boys treat these bowls as a vacation & a prize. The pressure was on this year to win it & they did so I’m happy, even if it was the lowly Big Least Bearcats.I’m hoping the Braves have a home series that weekend so I can make it a great sports weekend.

I think GT had a great season. I really doubt Johnson will take them to many, if any BCS games, but they should go to a decent bowl most every year. Unless his offense gets a tad more pass oriented I don’t think they will have any consistant success against teams like Virginia Tech who always have a great defense led by Bud Foster. Miami & UNC are on the rise as well. UVA & Duke will good 1 every 4-5 seasons, but the ACC as a whole is gaining strength. They sent 10 teams to bowls, but finished 4-6.

By Babe Ruth & C.C. Sabathia

January 4, 2009 2:39 AM | Link to this

“I don’t see anyone willing to trade & pay 5 million dollars to an overweight player”

Hey man, that’s not cool.

By Joe M.

January 4, 2009 3:01 AM | Link to this

Dback, are you just predicting that, or do you seriously want to have Andruw in CF and Francoeur in RF, coming off the years they had? If so, whose 25-man roster spot do you want Andruw to take? And please, do consider what he’s done over the past TWO FULL SEASONS before answering that.

Thank you DOB. It is unreal people want to keep Jordan Schafer away from his future spot for another entire year for Andruw Jones, who’s been terrible for over two full years now. I can somewhat understand Anderson or worst-slugging-percentage-for-an-Atlanta-Braves-outfielder-since-1978 (minimum 300 PAs) Gregor Blanco, but not Schafer.

I think it stems mostly from not having to see it. People whom want Andruw Jones back can see the stats, but they didn’t see the suck. Had the Braves offered him arbitration last year (like some here were screaming for) and Andruw Jones played for the Braves this past season on a 1 year, 15 million dollar deal and did exactly what he did with the Dodgers with the Braves instead, no one at all would want him back.

By Jeff

January 4, 2009 3:03 AM | Link to this

Hey Bravoman, I liked the acquisition of Maddox as much as any Braves fan. But, Texiera(?, Shefield, and all the others really grates. The players always seem to love Atlanta, but they bolt. Home grown dudes like Chipper and Mcain are what we need. All we need to do is just keep what we got and play some ball. I don’t think we need to trade Escobar or Kelly to get anybody. We’ve got a good team and a few reps in Spring Training and we’ll be good to go.

By nolie

January 4, 2009 3:09 AM | Link to this

I’d have a hard time believing that you could walk your way in the HOF. Jerald

no offense, but then you are stuck in the past. The thinking today is that it’s one of the most important aspects of the game. It’s more about not making outs which are the most precious commodity in the game. Dawson made an out 68 out of every 100 times he came to the plate, That doesn’t impress anybody with modern sensibilities. The rap on Rice has been his poor defense and a somewhat short effective career, by the time he was 33 he was pretty much done.. Like the Murph he started falling off too much too soon. If he had been moderately effective as long as Dawson was, he would have been in a long time ago. Likely as well for Dale.

By nolie

January 4, 2009 3:16 AM | Link to this

I say offer him $45/3 with an easily vesting 4th year with a take-it-or-leave-it clause. SaltyDawg

I’d be OK with 3/48 as long as the fourth year has to be earned. That would be my top offer and part of the reason would be that the Mets and Phils are also interested in him. I don’t think they are gonna sign him though.

By uga-brave

January 4, 2009 3:25 AM | Link to this

not fiscally responsible.

not in the best interest of the franchise.

get ready braves fans for that line.

smilin frank is alreay practicing that.

or better,

“we tried to be aggresive in the free agent market and it just did not work out”

if we dont make a competive offer for lowe, sheets or dunn, then smilin frank is nothing better then a mouthpiece.

all ahead full, right fank?

yeah you got vasquez, for a decent prospect.

go get peavy. or shut up.

excuses are coming.

By OUCH

January 4, 2009 3:46 AM | Link to this

Jerald-You wanted to know who was being reference and I told you. Why add more than was intended. That’s what I get for helping.

don’t be so touchy man. He didn’t say he didn’t know a pitcher named Floyd, he said he didn’t know an ace named Floyd. In other words, he doesn’t think Floyd is an ace. Do you need somebody to come by and kissie-pooh that tender spot for you?

By Again & Again

January 4, 2009 3:49 AM | Link to this

yeah you got vasquez, for a decent prospect.

go get peavy. or shut up.

excuses are coming UGA

man you are as obsessive on a subject as Lou Vales is.

By Baghdad Bowman

January 4, 2009 5:03 AM | Link to this

Hi guys, I’m official site Braves beat-writer Mark Bowman, better known among fans as: ‘Baghdad Bowman.’

Anyway, trust me, the Braves have over thirty-five million dollars to spend. Liberty Media did not slash payroll and fail to announce it for public relation reasons. The Braves just have no interest in free agents who can help them and they can afford. Lowe, Sheets, Burrell, Manny Ramirez, Dunn and even Smoltz all have these big flaws and only the Braves are smart enough to see them. This team is built to win right now as is. The starting staff may not have an ace but it has depth just like last year. With Jurrjens, Vasquez, Campillo, Reyes, Tommy Hanson, Parr, Charlie Morton and Buddy Carlyle; Cox can have full confidence he has one of the more deep rotations in the NL. And with quality like Blanco and Diaz, and the inevitable big improvement of Francoeur, the Braves are certain their outfield will be outstanding.

Wren is sure the team he has put together will silence his critics.

By Johnny B

January 4, 2009 5:04 AM | Link to this

I wonder how “D-train” Willis fits into the Tigers plans for 2009? Dude seemed to just completely lose it last year and never came back up until September….

He was top of the rotation with the Marlins for several years and I can’t recall any injury problems. Always had that “funky” high leg kick delivery and threw across his body but was very good for awhile.

I couldn’t find his contract status, I know he signed a pretty hefty deal a year or so ago. Wonder what it would take to get him from Detroit and if he could regain his form?

By Random

January 4, 2009 6:24 AM | Link to this

fastasballs—

Alabama will play Virginia Tech on Sept. 5 in the Georgia Dome in the 2009 opener for each team.

Braves are in town against Dusty and his Red Legs 4-6 Sep.

Johnny B: “I couldn’t find his contract status, I know he signed a pretty hefty deal a year or so ago.”

From Cot’s Baseball Contracts:

Dontrelle Willis lhp

3 years/$29M (2008-10)

… acquired by Detroit in trade from Florida 12/4/07

… signed extension with Detroit 12/20/07 (avoided arbitration)

… 08:$7M, 09:$10M, 10:$12M

… $1.5M in award bonuses based on Cy Young vote

By Johnny B

January 4, 2009 6:38 AM | Link to this

* Random* Thank you very much for the info!

I will keep that link for future references…

What do you think about Willis? Think he could regain his form? Wonder if the change in leagues had an affect on him or maybe he was pressing being with a new team and receiving a contract extension?

By Johnny B

January 4, 2009 6:46 AM | Link to this

I’m really not for trading away any of the young talent we have unless it’s for a proven commodity.

I wouldn’t mind seeing us sign Lowe for 3 plus an option 4th but a lefty for the rotation would be better IMO.

A think taking a chance on Mulder with a low base high incentive package wouldn’t be a bad ideal either.

As for a power bat I just don’t know…Dunn certainly has the power but you give up alot in other areas of the game. Can’t see the Braves signing him as a platoon with Diaz, not at the price he will more than likely still get.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 4, 2009 9:06 AM | Link to this

The rap on Rice has been his poor defense and a somewhat short effective career, by the time he was 33 he was pretty much done.. Like the Murph he started falling off too much too soon nolie

We’ll have to respectfully disagree with your comparison of Rice and Murphy. The two don’t compare at all. Rice’s last full season he hit .264, .001 below Murphy’s lifetime average. Rice was so much better than Murphy. I’ve been opposed to some of the players that have made the HOF over the past 15 or so years because mediocre doesn’t belong there, but I’m just so thankful that Dale Murphy never made it. He was a great person and all that, but his numbers did not justify his inclusion. But, I felt the writers would induct him for being nice just like Rice may have missed the boat because he was an a* to reporters. Murphy’s only saving grace is that he and Dawson played during a time when sluggers were few in the NL.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 4, 2009 9:10 AM | Link to this

Do you need somebody to come by and kissie-pooh that tender spot for you? OUCH

Sure, you can start just below the “taint”. How’s that smart boy?

By PatioDaddio

January 4, 2009 9:35 AM | Link to this

One of my employees went to the AJC and mentioned the Soriano/Druw trade idea we had been kicking around here in the office. I have 7 Braves fans in my office and none of us remember the Soriano surgery. We all must have been working heavily that day or week. Actually it was JB who mentioned it, but his ego is safe.

By Savannah Guy

January 4, 2009 10:12 AM | Link to this

Agreed that “nice” isn’t and shouldn’t be a ticket to the HOF, even though going through life with the good character that Dale Murphy demonstrated is more valuable than any athletic award.

In all fairness to The Murph… and others that excelled before the “scourge” of steroids with inflated stats at every position on the field… one has to look at a player’s numbers and overall performance in the context of the era in which they played and compare their contributions against what the norms were.

To be even more fair we have to look at the positions ball players were asked to play (catching wreaks havoc on athletes) and field type (artificial turf wreaked havoc on athletes), hence, the performance of many great players dropped off at a younger age than those since, with the knowledge and aid of advanced technology, sports medicine, training and surgical techniques. The length of careers and lengthened production during that career can make all the difference in the world when passing judgment.

Sabermetrics and statistics have their place and they guide us… yet we shouldn’t be completely controlled by what they tell us. If we don’t compare player performance with those in the same era we’re going to have an unfair, stat-biased perspective on whether some players were simply good or HOF great WHEN they played and against whom they competed.

Understandably, Murphy is not a unanimous decision by the HOF voters. Still, If I had the vote, I’d induct Dale Murphy into the HOF. My vote would take personality into consideration, but that factor wouldn’t affect the way I voted. However, watching and remembering a player with good character does admittedly affect the way I admire and respect the player and the man.

By Ron in mobile

January 4, 2009 10:23 AM | Link to this

So has anyone started wathchiung the MLB network? Im sitting here on a Sunday morning watching the World Series. Mccarver is annoying the hell outta me and if I close my eyes it almost feels like baseball season.

40 days till pitchers and catchers report

Oh and absolutely positively NO to the possible return of AJ. I love the guy but 2005 was four years ago. For all those who say if he can tear it up in spring training then give him a shot. You need to go read Jayson Starks article on espn.com. Pudge Rodriguez hit 5 homers for the Tigers last before being traded. The funny thing is he hit six in spring training. Forward please…not backwards!!

By eric in albany

January 4, 2009 10:59 AM | Link to this

can anyone explain what exactly is going on with andruw? from what i understand he re-worked the contract so that the money he is owed is spread out over more seasons. i understand how that helps the dodgers from year to year. what i dont understand is…

if and when he is released what happens to his money. the dodgers owe it to him right? does he still collect that money if he finds a job somewhere else.

from what i hear, the dodgers are looking for a trade for andruw. and if not they will most likely end up cutting him. if that is the case, why would a team bother trading for him and losing their own tallent to get andruw when they can just wait a few months, pick him up really cheep and keep all their current tallent?

so Can Someone Explain To Me if andruw gets paid if he gets cut and finds a new job and signs a new contract elsewhere

By KC

January 4, 2009 11:15 AM | Link to this

Savannah Guy: I think your analysis of Andruw is pretty accurate. That said, if we could get him for a song, I say… do it.

At the end of 2007, AJ probably chalked his season up to one bad year. A lot of very good players have them. He probably took for granted that he would be able to trot out there in 08 and get right back to his normal numbers. But now it has to be fairly obvious - even to him - that he’s not going to get a different result by doing the same things.

When you hit rock bottom, you either fade into oblivion… or swallow hard, take a long look at yourself, and make the changes you need to make. Which guy is AJ? We’ll find out soon enough.

If we can get Andruw on the cheap, why not? It’s much like the Raul Mondesi signing a few years ago, except that Andruw is only 31 years old.

If he rebounds, you’ve added much needed power to the outfield. If he doesn’t, you release him, and you’ve lost very little.

By Lew

January 4, 2009 11:22 AM | Link to this

JohnnyB-Go to Baseball Reference.Com and look up Dontrelle’s record since his 22 win season in 05. Every single season since then (with 08 proportionate since he missed so much time) his IP and K have decreased steadily. His Number of hits given up, walks, Earned Runs, Home Runs and WHIP have risen dramatically each year. He has thrown 20 WP and Hit 33 batters the past 2+ seasons.

If you do this, I think you’ll see the declining record of a pitcher that’s hardly worth $22 million over the next two seasons. Think Andruw Jones on a pitcher’s mound.

By Steve from OH

January 4, 2009 11:31 AM | Link to this

nolie (3:09)— what you said.

Sabermetrics and statistics have their place and they guide us… yet we shouldn’t be completely controlled by what they tell us. If we don’t compare player performance with those in the same era we’re going to have an unfair, stat-biased perspective on whether some players were simply good or HOF great WHEN they played and against whom they competed.

Well said. But I just don’t think Murphy and Rice are HOF’ers (but then again, I tend to be conservative when it comes to the HOF). On the current ballot, Henderson, Raines and Blyleven would have my vote.

By Mark

January 4, 2009 11:35 AM | Link to this

DOB,

If the Braves do offer Lowe a contract of 3 years/ 48 mil or so why don’t they just front load the contract year of about 20 mil or so. This way the first year of the deal you are getting the majority of the deal out of the way and you are paying the most for his youngest years.

Also, after this year if the Braves find themselves in a hole they could trade him. The relatively lower amounts for the 2 or 3 remaining years looks great when possibly trading him.

By Anders

January 4, 2009 11:36 AM | Link to this

Lew

Didn’t you attribute a lot of Willis’ issues, among other Marlin pitchers, from misuse by Girardi when he managed in Florida? After seeing Girardi last year with the Yanks I think you have a point. The only guy who thrived under him was Mussina. All others, young and old, had various breakdowns throughout the year. Coincidence? That would scare me if I was a Yanks fan who just signed Burnett!

By Efrim

January 4, 2009 12:04 PM | Link to this

Lowe (along with Jurrjens, Vazquez, and possibly Hanson and Smoltz) would instantly give the Braves a chance to compete in the East, and keeping him out of a PHI or NY uni would keep the competition from getting out of hand.

I disagree. You still have your two best hitters missing at least 25 games. McCann because he is a catcher and Chipper because he can’t stay on the field. It would be an improved team, but I don’t think they are even in the conversation with the Phils and Mets until they add Lowe and an impact middle of the order bat.

By Lew

January 4, 2009 12:14 PM | Link to this

Anders-No, I attributed the injuries to the rest of the Marlin’s young pitchers to Girardi. Dontrelle, with his weird pitching motion has been in serious decline before and after the trade.

Girardi sucks as a manager of young pitching, but Dontrelle would have dropped off anyway, to my way of thinking. If you look at comments I made last year, I was saying then he was shot to hell. I have been vindicated. He is shot to hell.

By lee

January 4, 2009 12:16 PM | Link to this

To be competitive we need a stud starting pitcher and we need Frenchie to be an above average hitter. That’s the basics…if we can’t get both of these then it’s gonna be another bad season. A left fielder would help too.

By Steve from OH

January 4, 2009 12:18 PM | Link to this

I don’t think they are even in the conversation with the Phils and Mets until they add Lowe and an impact middle of the order bat.

I agree. Emphasis on needing both. Even then we’re going to need a good season out of Francoeur, an average season out of Schafer/Blanco, and good seasons out of one of Morton/Hanson/Reyes.

By Lew

January 4, 2009 12:19 PM | Link to this

Anders-I guess in the long run, it doesn’t matter who caused Dontrelle’s problems-he’s a seriously flawed pitcher in serious decline.

I sure wouldn’t have gotten Girardi to manage the Yankees if the decision were mine, though. Every one of those young Marlin’s guys lost considerable injury time. Girardi had a team in Florida with zero expectations-he could easily have brought those kids along slowly and let them develop (look at Nolasco now, eg.)- but in an effort to prove what a motivator he was, he pitched those kids into the ground

By BravesFanInRockies

January 4, 2009 12:20 PM | Link to this

Anders (11:36)

Great point. Girardi’s handling of the pitching staff may be a real problem for the Yanks, not only with Burnett but also with CC, who’s pitched an ungodly number of innings the past two seasons, given the fact that everybody now uses five-man rotations.

Then there’s Joba, who’s already had some injury issues this early in his career.

May not happen in 2009, but by 2010 you might have some serious breakdowns.

When it comes to working with starting pitchers, Girardi makes Dusty Baker look like a sissy.

By cvbraves

January 4, 2009 12:21 PM | Link to this

Won’t find much agreement with this, but I don’t believe we’ll find a potentially better defensive left fielder available than AJ.

Believe AJ will do what he needs to do to 1) get in shape, 2) lay off the outside low pitch, 3) hit to the opposite field on occasion, and 4) pull the inside pitch for extra bases.

For $400,000 let’s give him a shot during spring training.

Also, let’s sign Lowe and Perez.

By David O'Brien

January 4, 2009 12:25 PM | Link to this

Again and Again, regarding your 3:49 a.m. post: I was thinking the same thing. Don’t know what happened to our boy, but he’s on a one-note binge that’s lost my interest.

By Anders

January 4, 2009 12:25 PM | Link to this

Lew

I definetly remember you being down on Dontrelle. If the Yanks are struggling at the All Star break, meaning out of first by 6 or so games I think they replace Girardi. I think he’s quietly on notice. He certainly didn’t distinguish himself in any way last year.

As for your Braves, between Chipper’s comments in The Sporting News regarding the need for trades and DOB’s cryptic comments about quiet activity by the Braves I suspect something is in the wind and will be out very shortly.

I’ve been seeing rumors on blogs from Red Sox fans that Toronto is quietly putting out feelers regarding Vernon Wells. Hmmm…

By BravesFanInRockies

January 4, 2009 12:31 PM | Link to this

Believe AJ will do what he needs to do to 1) get in shape, 2) lay off the outside low pitch, 3) hit to the opposite field on occasion….cvbraves

So you’re asking Andruw to do three things he’s never done in his career, even during his 2007 salary drive.

Good luck with that.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 4, 2009 12:46 PM | Link to this

OK, Anders, NOW you’re stoking the hot stove.

Sheer speculation, of course, but —

Vernon Wells? Three years younger than Torii Hunter and a better offensive player.

Under contract through 2014, but the money doesn’t get silly until after 2010. That makes me wonder if he really is on the block now because his contract is reasonable the next two seasons. (He got a big signing bonus, stretched out in annual installments through 2010, which you would expect the Jays would have to eat.)

Of course if the Braves did get him, you can keep Schafer in AAA awhile longer if needed, and Wells is your RF if Frenchy stinks up the joint.

Again, sheer speculation …

By Efrim

January 4, 2009 12:47 PM | Link to this

Anders

Sorry I didn’t get back to your post until now. Yes, Ovechkin is a monster. How bad are the Pens right now? Doesn’t look very good. Therrien may be in trouble if they somehow miss the playoffs. Actually, he’ll be fired if they do. Vernon Wells? No thanks. Braves need a corner OF. Not a CF who has a tough time getting on base.

By Lew

January 4, 2009 12:58 PM | Link to this

Anders-I have doubts that they would target Wells unless the Jays were to eat tons of his salary. Dude is owed $120 million over the next six years.

Signing bonus be damned! Were the Braves to sign him and use him for two seasons until Heyward would be ready, then how do they dump his salary at that point? Who would take him? Add to that he didn’t have a season last year anywhere close to what someone making $20 mil per would put up and I would question why anyone would take him.

The guy is not worth an average of $20 mil per season and we don’t need someone for six years-not with the kids coming up. No way they target him, but I would bet that Roy Halladay has been mentioned.

By Efrim

January 4, 2009 1:02 PM | Link to this

SI.com’s Jon Heyman says that “talks are becoming more serious for free-agent pitcher Derek Lowe”.

http://www.fannation.com/siblogs/hotstove/posts/37542

He says the Braves appear to have interest. I would offer a 3 year 45 million dollar deal. Maybe 48 million. But I would make that fourth year option club only. Making it vest off innings would be tricky. What happens if Lowe’s third season is 200 innings of league average pitching? Do you really want to pay him 15-16 million in a year where he will turn 40?

By McFann Ô Former POB MIA

January 4, 2009 1:03 PM | Link to this

Hey, Denizens! Hope you all had happy holidays! So what’s happening? Been so long since I’ve seen this thing they call “internet”, I’ve almost forgotten how to use it…Don’t worry: I re-learn quickly. : )

Yes…we’ve been without internet and cable for 10 days…the internet’s back, but still no cable. Why?

We were coming home from Church Christmas morning—it was a little after 2 AM. As we approached our neighborhood, we saw a police car, a fire engine, and an amble—um…a life-saving truck. At first we thought we might not be able to get into our subdivision…

Well, we could get in, all right. And when we got closer, we saw what the accident was: Someone had crashed their pickup truck into our neighborhood’s new AT&T U-Verse box—a big, metal box—and pushed it about five feet. Only reason it stopped was because it hit a telephone poll.

The story gets longer, but to make it short, they finally got our phone and internet wired or whatever this morning. (But we haven’t been without a phone for 10 days…they used some box from the neighborhood across the street to give us phone…plus both my parents have cellphones.) Yeah, we still have no cable, but hey, that’s what DVDs are for, right?

Oy…

By brian

January 4, 2009 1:06 PM | Link to this

would the braves even offer Lowe a 3 year $45 million contract (wasn’t the Mets 3 year $36 million?) or a contract that the Braves feel if he signs is reasonable and if he signs with the Mets then they at least drove up his price

By David O'Brien

January 4, 2009 1:12 PM | Link to this

Efrim, 3 X 15 ain’t gonna get it done for Lowe. Boras isn’t going to take that much less for a guy who’s stats blow away Burnett’s over past 3, 5, however many years you want to go back. Despite the age, not going to take that much less for Burnett — and he shouldn’t, if you ask me.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 4, 2009 1:17 PM | Link to this

OK, Lew, I didn’t mean to gush about Wells. Of course he is a bit like Joe Carter … career OPS is .812, which we aren’t getting from any of our OF right now.

If he’s worth $20 mil per year over the duration of his contract, it’s as a CF, not a RF. And yeah, if the Jays are shopping him to get rid of payroll, it makes little sense to do it now, when he’s relatively cheap.

By cvbraves

January 4, 2009 1:17 PM | Link to this

Francouer returns to hit .285 with 25 homers, Andruw in left hits .290 with 30 homers, Jordan/Josh/Gregor in center hits .260 at leadoff with a .422 OBP.

Chipper plays 150 games, hits .330 with 26 homers. Yunel, Kelly have great years, batting around .280 to .295, hitting a combined 23 homers. Kotchman plays the whole season with a .289 average and about 20 homers; and, Mac bats .307 with 28 homers.

Prado, Omar, Norton, Diaz, Ross on the bench…and a terrific bullpen.

and we’ll start with Smoltz, Jair, Vasquez, Hanson and, let’s see, I’ll take Glavin or Garland.

Sorry, Mr. Olney, we don’t want to revisit the Peavy deal (MLBtraderumors’ latest).

No way are we letting Yunel go. We win the division.

By Lew

January 4, 2009 1:18 PM | Link to this

Further inspection of Vernon Wells record makes me wonder exactly why the Jays thought he was worth that kind of money to begin with.

Wells has played 7 full seasons. 3 of those seasons, he played under 150 games (2 in a row), with barely over 100 played last year.

Four of those seven seasons (again two in a row) he has under 100 RBI.

Four of those seven seasons (again, 2 in a row) he’s hit less thann (hey Mc Fann, welcome back) 25 HR.

Four of those seven seasons, he had an OBP (for all you lovers of OBP) of under .340 (lifetime OBP .320)

Four of those seven seasons he hit .275 or less.

He has never scored a 100 runs.

He never walked more than 54 times in a season.

I can Well(s) see why the Jays would like to dump that $120 million they will owe him through 2014, but I seriously wonder why anyone would go for the deal.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 4, 2009 1:18 PM | Link to this

And McFann,

What a lousy way to ring out the old year and ring in the new. Wondered where you’ve been.

Welcome back, and hope everything else is OK in the neighborhood.

By Efrim

January 4, 2009 1:23 PM | Link to this

DOB

Than I would offer 3 years and 48 million. But like I said, Braves should not make that fourth year vest with innings pitched. Lowe can get to 180 in his sleep, but that isn’t to say the sinkerballer is a shoe in to throw even an average year at age 39.

By BravesFanInRockies

January 4, 2009 1:26 PM | Link to this

cvbraves,

I guess a fella can dream.

By Jerald Holcombe

January 4, 2009 1:35 PM | Link to this

3 X 15 ain’t gonna get it done for Lowe. Boras isn’t going to take that much less for a guy who’s stats blow away Burnett’s over past 3, 5, however many years you want to go back DOB

Then, I would be willing to bet that the Braves aren’t serious contenders for his services. I would be amazed to see them pay more than a average of 15mil.

By Steve from OH

January 4, 2009 1:38 PM | Link to this

Efrim, I’ve read that Lowe wants 16MM/year. 3/48 may get it done, but I’d expect that we’d need to guarantee a 4th year to get him. I’d be ok giving him 4 guaranteed. He’s been remarkably consistent over the last three seasons, and his FIP and ERA have been very close. He supposedly works very hard to keep in shape, so that’s a good sign.

By Salty Dawg

January 4, 2009 1:38 PM | Link to this

cvbraves

Francouer returns to hit .285 with 25 homers, Andruw in left hits .290 with 30 homers, Jordan/Josh/Gregor in center hits .260 at leadoff with a .422 OBP.

Chipper plays 150 games, hits .330 with 26 homers. Yunel, Kelly have great years, batting around .280 to .295, hitting a combined 23 homers. Kotchman plays the whole season with a .289 average and about 20 homers; and, Mac bats .307 with 28 homers.

Prado, Omar, Norton, Diaz, Ross on the bench…and a terrific bullpen.

and we’ll start with Smoltz, Jair, Vasquez, Hanson and, let’s see, I’ll take Glavin or Garland.

Sorry, Mr. Olney, we don’t want to revisit the Peavy deal (MLBtraderumors’ latest).

No way are we letting Yunel go. We win the division.

The stock market rebounds to make record gains, my boss stops crying poor and gives me a raise, Paris Hilton underground and isn’t seen or heard from in 2009. Anything else while we are dreaming?

By Steve from OH

January 4, 2009 1:53 PM | Link to this

John Perrotto over at Baseball Prospectus says Lowe is still looking for 5/80. No way he gets that. I’m going to say that 4/60-64 gets it done.

By Tomas

January 4, 2009 1:56 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Unfortunately for Lowe the Yankees aren’t interested. The only way he gets the kind of money and years he wants, is if the Red sox and Angels become high bidders for him. If he wants 16 mill/per year, he better forget about five years. Yeah he has been very consistent, winning at least 12, and pitching close to 200 inning since he has becomed a starter. But he is 36 yrs old, that isn’t a good age to be asking for that amount of money and years. I think 3yrs 48 million with a vesting option worth 64 million.

By Andy K.

January 4, 2009 1:56 PM | Link to this

Olney says Braves players want a Peavy trade, and would let some things fly if he were to come. says Braves could re-ignite talks, and then sign a Orlando Cabrera is Esco is lost in the Peavy trade. HERE WE GO AGAIN BOYS ‘N GIRLS!!!!

By McFann Ô Former POB MIA

January 4, 2009 1:57 PM | Link to this

Lew he’s hit less thann (hey Mc Fann, welcome back)

Haha! Thanks! Hey, have you ever used an electric eraser?

BravesFanInRockies—

Thanks! Yeah, it was kinda lousy. First couple of days, it was almost fun. But these last few it’s been like, “OK, you cann fix it now…” No internet was more annoying than no cable.

Haha…right now we cann hear the TV…but there’s no pitcure. Hogan’s Heros is on…

hope everything else is OK in the neighborhood.

Thanks. It is…as far as I know…

By Salty Dawg

January 4, 2009 1:58 PM | Link to this

nolie

I say offer him $45/3 with an easily vesting 4th year with a take-it-or-leave-it clause. SaltyDawg

I’d be OK with 3/48 as long as the fourth year has to be earned. That would be my top offer and part of the reason would be that the Mets and Phils are also interested in him. I don’t think they are gonna sign him though.

Under normal circumstances I would be hesitant to go to $16 per, but given our situation I too wouldn’t mind seeing them go that high if 3 years and an earned 4th will get it done. If he insists on 4 years with a option 5th, that per year value declines quickly given his age. The most important thing is to get him locked up quickly to avoid a bidding war with more desirable teams. I would go as high as 4/$52 with an earned 5th year, but front loaded so they can move him after a few years if need be.

By Salty Dawg

January 4, 2009 2:01 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH

John Perrotto over at Baseball Prospectus says Lowe is still looking for 5/80. No way he gets that. I’m going to say that 4/60-64 gets it done.

I don’t believe he will get even that much. Teams seem to be in bargain hunting mode right now and at his age nobody is going to give him what he is looking for.

By Salty Dawg

January 4, 2009 2:07 PM | Link to this

Andy K.

Olney says Braves players want a Peavy trade, and would let some things fly if he were to come. says Braves could re-ignite talks, and then sign a Orlando Cabrera is Esco is lost in the Peavy trade. HERE WE GO AGAIN BOYS ‘N GIRLS!!!!

Actually, what he says is that the Braves may want to revisit a Peavy trade. This is pure speculation on Olney’s part and I’m not biting until I see an official release from the Braves or MLB. The last report I saw speculated that the Padres may be interested in keeping Peavy now that the team may be sold. I’d be more inclined to believe that at this point because who in their right mind wants to buy a team and commence a fire sale?

By Salty Dawg

January 4, 2009 2:10 PM | Link to this

Anybody know if there is any precedence for a team giving a sliding scale option to a player? Something like $X at 180 innings in previous year and $Y at 200 innings previous year?

By Billy Pilgrim

January 4, 2009 2:14 PM | Link to this

Andy K Orlando Cabrera? Blech!! I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit…

By Efrim

January 4, 2009 2:15 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH

John Perrotto over at Baseball Prospectus says Lowe is still looking for 5/80. No way he gets that. I’m going to say that 4/60-64 gets it done.

I would be pretty suprised if he got 4 years and 64 million guaranteed. Maybe 4/64 with that fourth year being a vesting or club option, but not guaranteed. That is a lot to give a guy who is 36 next year. Let’ remember that while Lowe has been durable, it doesn’t mean he’ll definetly stay durable throughout the duration of the contract.

By Chris from the Rock

January 4, 2009 2:17 PM | Link to this

Anybody notice O’Flaherty’s splits from ‘07 when he was healthy? In 72 games pitched, lefties hit .183 against him. Looks like we might have a nice cheap replacement for Ohman, and once again bilked the Mariners.

Logan’s splits aren’t nearly as encouraging. He’s been hammered by lefties and righties equally.

Either way, the bullpen is going to be strong this year, even w/ Moylan on the DL until May. Gonzo-Soriano (if healthy)-Acosta-Bennett-Boyer-O’Flaherty-Carlyle. Ridgway. Logan and Stockman in the minors for injury reinforcements.

I know a lot of things haven’t gone right this offseason, and we still have holes, but the bullpen and the bench will be a strong as anyone’s in the NL.

By Chris from the Rock

January 4, 2009 2:17 PM | Link to this

Anybody notice O’Flaherty’s splits from ‘07 when he was healthy? In 72 games pitched, lefties hit .183 against him. Looks like we might have a nice cheap replacement for Ohman, and once again bilked the Mariners.

Logan’s splits aren’t nearly as encouraging. He’s been hammered by lefties and righties equally.

Either way, the bullpen is going to be strong this year, even w/ Moylan on the DL until May. Gonzo-Soriano (if healthy)-Acosta-Bennett-Boyer-O’Flaherty-Carlyle. Ridgway. Logan and Stockman in the minors for injury reinforcements.

I know a lot of things haven’t gone right this offseason, and we still have holes, but the bullpen and the bench will be a strong as anyone’s in the NL.

By JC from UT

January 4, 2009 2:28 PM | Link to this

Wren needs to call Boras and tell him 3/50 plus an option year for 17.5 Option will vest if Lowe pitches 200 innings in any 2 of the 3 years. If not Braves buy him out for 3 million.

By Lew

January 4, 2009 2:43 PM | Link to this

McFann-Nope, never used an electric eraser. We dinosaurs don’t believe in that kind of modern technology any more than we think BABIP is worthwhile. Dang new fangled things (he said in his best Walter Brennan imitation).

By Random

January 4, 2009 2:43 PM | Link to this

Savannah Guy: “Sabermetrics and statistics have their place and they guide us… yet we shouldn’t be completely controlled by what they tell us.”

As far as I know, sabermetrics are the only baseball statistics that do take into account some of those “other” factors you mention — specifically with park adjustments, poisition adjustments and era adjustments (eg, OPS+, ERA+).

Is your understanding of sabermetrics different? Based on what?

McFann: “The story gets longer, but to make it short, they finally got our phone and internet wired or whatever this morning.”

C’mon, kid, make it longer — Frank Wren’s apparently still in his coma.

You’ll have our undivided attention right now — precious little else to talk about.

(I mean, Hockey?!?!?)

By Steve from OH

January 4, 2009 2:58 PM | Link to this

Random, don’t start talking smack about hockey…or this hockey player might have to come over there and change your mind, lol.

And you’re correct about the sabermetric stats, yet again. I think his point about comparing players to their own era is valid, though.

By McFann Ô Former POB MIA

January 4, 2009 3:20 PM | Link to this

Lew—

Haha…gotcha. I totally understand.

Random C’mon, kid, make it longer…

Well, if you really want me to…

Daddy called AT&T Christmas morning to tell them what happened…took him forever to get connected. It also took them forever to get what he was talking about—how hard is that to get? A pickup truck ran into the box at the front of our neighborhood. Simple, no? When he started to make contact, he got cut off…

He called ‘em again the next day, I think. Every time he called, he got somebody different, so he had to retell the story 50 million times.

The Saturday after Christmas, a dude came out to look at “our” box. But we could finally show them: It wasn’t “our” box—it was the box in front of the neighborhood. That’s when he wired our phone using a differ’nt kind of box from another neighborhood.

It was Monday when they finally started fixing the box. They worked all day Monday and Tuesday, then part of the day Wednesday. Yesterday somebody was supposed to come to the house, but they didn’t. Then this morning before Church, a guy called up to tell us he was gonna hook the phone back up. Then he called back to see if it worked, and it did!

And our cable just came back on. So we’re all normal now. It was an int’resting experience, that’s for sure.

By David O'Brien

January 4, 2009 3:29 PM | Link to this

Chris from the Rock: Don’t know where you got 72 appearances, but yes, O’Flaherty did hold lefties to a .183 average in 2007 (it was 56 appearances, 52-1/3 innings).

And while Logan’s final numbers were bad, the dude was dominant first half of the season. Apparently just faded after break.

Logan had a 1.95 ERA and .223 opp average with two homers allowed in first 36 appearances for White Sox in 2008, through July 9.

But then he allowed 21 earned runs and 30 hits including five homers in his last 10 innings (19 appearances) the rest of the way.

By Billy Pilgrim

January 4, 2009 3:31 PM | Link to this

Wow, AT&T’s customer service was lacking? Never heard of anyone else having trouble with them…

statements in italics denote sarcasm

By Savannah Guy

January 4, 2009 3:36 PM | Link to this

one of the real pleasures of going to see braves games while he was here was watching andruw track balls in CF.

Jed, true. Watching him between innings was like watching a kid play catch on a playground. Smilin’ all the while. I think he’d prefer the NL adopt a DO (designated outfielder), so he wouldn’t have to bat.

I think your analysis of Andruw is pretty accurate. That said, if we could get him (AJ) for a song, I say… do it.

KC, most of us in Braves Nation would be happy to see AJ stage an incredible comeback. Trouble is, getting him for a “song” may seem a bargain going in, but we may be singing the blues when we need some rock ‘n roll.

… I just don’t think Murphy and Rice are HOF’ers (but then again, I tend to be conservative when it comes to the HOF). On the current ballot, Henderson, Raines and Blyleven would have my vote.

Steve from OH… fair enough. Murph is right in that zone where a reasonable HOF argument could be made either way. You’ll not find much disagreement with your three HOF choices there. Henderson should be a first ballot lock… and what a character he was.

By Anders

January 4, 2009 3:45 PM | Link to this

Random

Now wait a minute. This is a Braves blog in the sports section of the AJC during an otherwise quiet week. Discussions have ranged from music preferences, Rocky Mountain restaurant reviews, snowboard conditions, the re-screening of a porch and all the way to Mcfann’s excellent adventure in a quest to regain cable and internet access and you diss my two post hockey discussion?

Wow. Tough crowd.

By Corb

January 4, 2009 3:52 PM | Link to this

Man, I wish we would just sign Manny. He would instantly make this offense one to be reckoned with. I know he wore on Boston and they couldn’t wait to get him out of town, but he played there for 8 YEARS. He’d be here for less than half that (3).

Then I think we should take a chance on Sheets. I know his history as well, but again he’s a high risk/big reward guy that isn’t looking for a long term deal.

And finally, I’d lock Wren, Towers, Peavy and Axelrod in a room and wouldn’t let them our until a deal is reached. They could have food, water and a telephone in the room. But they aren’t getting out until a deal is done (and I don’t mean “Furcal done”. I mean……D-O-N-E!)

By Blogmeister

January 4, 2009 3:55 PM | Link to this

New Blog today? Or tomorrow?

By McFann Ô Former POB MIA

January 4, 2009 4:07 PM | Link to this

Anders all the way to Mcfann’s excellent adventure in a quest to regain cable and internet access

Haha! “Excellent”? Yeah…OK, sure…

; )

By Anders

January 4, 2009 4:09 PM | Link to this

Corb

And finally, I’d lock Wren, Towers, Peavy and Axelrod in a room and wouldn’t let them our until a deal is reached. They could have food, water and a telephone in the room. But they aren’t getting out until a deal is done (and I don’t mean “Furcal done”. I mean……D-O-N-E!)

One question. Why would they need a telephone?

By Savannah Guy

January 4, 2009 4:13 PM | Link to this

As far as I know, sabermetrics are the only baseball statistics that do take into account some of those “other” factors you mention — specifically with park adjustments, poisition adjustments and era adjustments (eg, OPS+, ERA+). … Is your understanding of sabermetrics different? Based on what?

Random, I’d not argue that sabermetrics fills in many if not most gaps of understanding where traditional and even newer, more integrated singular statistics leave off… yet no matter the sophistication or complexity, metrics will never provide a full comparative human, athletic context or a complete picture of a player’s contribution and value at any given time under every circumstance.

I’m guessing that my understanding of sabermetrics is no different than yours and yet I’d surely tire of parsing the technical detail long before you might.

As far as my Dale Murphy HOF opinion goes, I can’t honestly recite chapter and verse or which of many articles I’ve read that support my opinion on his inclusion in the Hall… and it’s not my interest to chart and catalogue those things to feed them back or save, clip and paste. Mine is just an honest, earned opinion, that’s about it.

As an aside, if you haven’t already, you’d probably like to read Bill James’ book, Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame. Wonder how James would vote on a Murphy HOF ballot?

By Chris from the Rock

January 4, 2009 4:14 PM | Link to this

Oops, my mistake on O’Flaherty’s appearances in ‘07. Not sure why I thought it was 72.

By nolie

January 4, 2009 4:14 PM | Link to this

Understandably, Murphy is not a unanimous decision by the HOF voters. Still, If I had the vote, I’d induct Dale Murphy into the HOF. My vote would take personality into consideration, but that factor wouldn’t affect the way I voted. However, watching and remembering a player with good character does admittedly affect the way I admire and respect the player and the man. SavannahGuy

in regards to comparing within the same era which I agree with. Murph led the league in 31 different categories during his era. Rice led in 33. The average HOFer starts at about 27. Thay’s pretty dominant production.BTW Chipper has 4 categories. The rap on both guys is that their super-productive years were on the short side, I read numerous articles each year saying that too. Add a couple more highly productive years to each of their careers and they would both be in. Personally I lean more toward Rice being there than Murph. One of the interesting things though is that 3 of the 6 HOF criteria have to do with character in one way or another. Of course Ty Cobb was the first inductee and with a better % than others too.

By N Nine

January 4, 2009 4:17 PM | Link to this

And while Logan’s final numbers were bad, the dude was dominant first half of the season. Apparently just faded after break DOB

The potential of Boone is great and all, but sounds like a similar gamble Pirates took on with Tyler Yates. We need Ohman and not just rely this lefty.

Andruw Jones agrees to be released or traded by spring .. AndyK, Nice effort in making news bigger than it really is. (Peavy hype)

Its back to a business week as rumors, McFann, and DOB are back!

By ncgary

January 4, 2009 4:22 PM | Link to this

if the dodgers cant trade him and they cant , they will release andruw, and eat 39 million 700 thousand guaranteed money. that means every time andruw got a hit it cost the dodgers 1.28 million. 190 thousand for every official at bat. talk about getting fleeced. andruw is mlbs first 39 million season athlete.

By nolie

January 4, 2009 4:36 PM | Link to this

One question. Why would they need a telephone? Anders

to call 911 for paramedics ?

By Anders

January 4, 2009 4:37 PM | Link to this

ncgary

Upon reading your 4:22 post Roger Clemens climbed back on the stairmaster in his gym and asked the Hendricks brothers to alert the Dodgers of his impending comeback.

By Savannah Guy

January 4, 2009 4:39 PM | Link to this

Nolie, good stuff there. Glad you and some others here can track and pull data at the drop of a hat like that. Specifics are much more convincing than opinions from some guy on the coast. LOL.

Ty Cobb obviously got in the HOF before character was considered. Even with his dubious character, he deserved to be in the Hall because of what he did between the lines. Same goes for Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe.

By 18 Wheels of Love

January 4, 2009 4:57 PM | Link to this

Bowman chimes in on AJ and Lowe…

Link

“But like some of these other teams, the Braves aren’t interested in providing Lowe the $16 million annual salary that he’s believed to be seeking.

In fact, it doesn’t seem like the Braves would be willing to better the rejected three-year, $36 million offer the Mets recently made to Lowe, who stands as the most attractive starting pitcher remaining on the free-agent market. “

By McFann Ô Former POB MIA

January 4, 2009 5:07 PM | Link to this

N Nine—

Ha…Thanks. Feels good to be back!

DOB And let’s not overlook the general excellence of young Brian McCann, who is easy to take for granted instead of being appreciated as one of the best hitting catchers to come along in at least a couple of generations.

Very true. Wonder why he’s so easy to take for granted…So sad…

Heap is very good, folks.

Couldn’t agree more! Danke!

By David O'Brien

January 4, 2009 5:23 PM | Link to this

NEW BLOGGAGE, get your NEW BLOGGAGE….

By keylargo

January 4, 2009 5:26 PM | Link to this

McFann

Admit it. You were in some posh lodge high in the Rockies doing some heliskiing. The lodge was so exclusive, they only had a generator and no satellite or internet was needed.

By Chris from the Rock

January 4, 2009 5:27 PM | Link to this

Anyone else think that Joe “the Voice of the Dallas Cowboys” Buck and Troy Aikman are confused b/c they aren’t announcing a Dallas game for FOX this week with them out of the playoffs?

By Frank

January 4, 2009 5:28 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB,

Hey, was that really Mark Bowman from the official site that posted at 5:03 a.m. or was that an imposter?

I also have another question.

Is there a way for someone who doesn’t live in the Atlanta area (I live in Kansas) to purchase Peachtree TV? I missed the hell out of the Braves last season and my cable provider doesn’t have the MLB network, unfortunately.

By Bobby Cox = Tony Dungy

January 4, 2009 5:30 PM | Link to this

Interesting watching the Colts game last night. Couldn’t help but think about how many championships Dungy and Cox have cost their franchises.

Consider the similarities. Both are “players’ coaches.” You’ll never hear a negative word from a player about either. Ditto from the media. Both are known for their even-keel approach, generally producing great results in the regular season by preventing their teams from getting too high or too low. There is a quiet confidence, never-panic attitude with the players that has proven successful.

…And then there’s the postseason. Both teams have underachieved in the playoffs by any standards. Much speculation ensues that these “great” coaches simply can’t inspire their teams to raise their level of play when it matters most.

In my opinion, with different leadership, both the Colts and the Braves have at least 3-4 championships each over the past two decades. Sure, they might have sacrificed a few regular season championships in the process, but with all due respect to the hero-worshipping media, what fan wouldn’t make that trade-off?

By cmac1919

January 4, 2009 5:35 PM | Link to this

I don’t understand why the Braves were willing to offer Burnett so much money and thought of him as an ace (even when he’s never been a ace before) but don’t want to cough up the money for Derek Lowe, who’s numbers over the years have been much better than A.J Burnett’s and isn’t an injury risk at all and does have experience in being an ace with the Dodgers.

It’s just mindboggling.

By Random

January 4, 2009 7:37 PM | Link to this

*(Tried to post this 3 or 4 hours ago, but had no connectivity. Apologies if it’s OBE.)

Steve from OH: “don’t start talking smack about hockey”

Sorry, mate — just askin’.

(I mean, Ice Hockey??? Ice Hockey?!?!?)

Ahem — sorry again. Just askin’, you know.

8-P

SfO: “I think his point about comparing players to their own era is valid, though.”

But that’s exactly what OPS+ & ERA+ do — in addition to adjustments for ballpark factors, they compare the player’s performance to the league average for the period(s) in question.

Agree with you on Henderson (no duh, huh? he could be unanimous, but then you never can tell with those BBWAA doofuses), Raines and Blyleven.

McFann —

Why did none of your neighbors complain to AT&T? Were they not also affected?

Or is your house the only one on the compound with television?

(JK!!!)

By Charles Whitworth

January 6, 2009 5:22 PM | Link to this

This is tiresome, irrelevant, self-regarding drivel. Not sports journalism. Go back to the snowboard, buddy (and do something nice for the Spanish lady?).

By Charles Whitworth

January 6, 2009 5:28 PM | Link to this

This is tiresome, irrelevant, self-regarding drivel. Not sports journalism. Go back to the snowboard, buddy (and do something nice for the Spanish lady?).

By David

January 8, 2009 10:08 PM | Link to this

I guess the realization that this is a business and not a sport is finally settling in. I have been a loyal braves fan and attended many games every year since the early 70’s.

I have watched ticket prices and concessions sky rocket. I didn’t seem to mind some of the increases when I knew I was getting my monies worth. Watching Chipper, Smoltz, Glavine and Avery all come of age.

I know somewhere this as I mentioned was a business decision. So as a business man, I have decided to spend my money elsewhere! I just believe baseball moves like this just take the fun out of the game and I just don’t enjoy it anymore.

I will go watch the Rome Braves..better value and venue. Good luck John….

By Josh Bruce

January 10, 2009 1:25 PM | Link to this

I think that my best memory of the Braves is when I went to Frenchy’s debut against the Cubs on July 7, 2005 when he hit his first homerun.