Braves

By playertobenamedlater

December 18, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the New Blog DOB. First?

By Joe M.

December 18, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this

3:02pm: SI.com’s Jon Heyman talked to Wren, who said he’s notified the Wasserman Media Group the Braves will no longer be doing business with them. It’s a bold move, as the agency has a robust client list.

Good for Wren! Never deal with these two ever again.

By Ernest

December 18, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this

Should the Braves look at this as a ‘rebuilding’ year and look to promote some of the youngsters now? Sure, they may take some lumps but they would get valuable experience in the meantime. Get a few ‘innings eater’ pitchers so as not to wear the young arms out.

By Ernest

December 18, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this

BTW DOB, it’s good to know you throw some R&B lyrics in from time to time. Keep in up!!!

By beekay

December 18, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this

Let’s save the money till 2010 and watch the kids grow…Morton,Hanson, Schafer,JOJO. If we have any shot at the break then lets make a few deals. If not lets wait till next year even if it’s Bobby’s last year

By John Adcox

December 18, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this

Man, you need to tell us about stuff like the Cow Races before, not after.

And cheers to Frank Wren and the Braves for thinking long term.

By Iron Labrum

December 18, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this

Two out of the last three blogs crashed…averaging over a 1000 posts…put that in your stat machine!

By hitnskins

December 18, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this

I wish that they’d roll the dice on Sheets….when healthy, he’s the best pitcher left on the market. I mean, the Braves luck has to change at some point doesn’t it?????

By Renegator

December 18, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this

1st?

By Thundersticks

December 18, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this

Let’s trade for Dye, sign/trade for the best pitcher we can get, and sign both Smoltz and Glavine. Of course, that’s easier said than done.

By RR

December 18, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this

I SAY WE GO AFTER LOWE HE IS MOST DURABLE “ACE” WHO IS A FREE AGENT I STILL DONT GET WHY WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN HIM

By Mark

December 18, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Now that Wren has notified Wasserman Media Group he wont deal with them how is he going to deal with Peter Moylan? Peter is represented by them. Seems like a sticky situation….anyways what is Moylan’s contract situation? Thanks for the Blog!

By Jonathon

December 18, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this

Did anyone ever figure out if any current Braves have Kinzer or Tellem as their agents?

By rammerjammer

December 18, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

Never won more than 12 games before winning 13 this year, despite immense and undeniable talent.

David, that’s really not representative of Sheets’ performance. In his eight years at Milwaukee, they’ve lost 94, 106, 94, 94, 81, 87, 79 and 72 games. Hardly fair to blame him for not winning more often.

The reason I recommend him is that we’ll get played again going after Lowe. Enough of that. And he really is a top-tier pitcher, stuck on a historically bottom-tier team.

From what I read, Sheets has interest from Milwaukee, Texas and Houston. He wants to stay in the NL and Houston has payroll issues.

So basically he’s looking at staying in Milwaukee on a 2/25 contract. Good grief, he’s there for the taking.

By Nick

December 18, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

I am on the fence about Dunn… as a sabre freak I love his bat. His defence has improved ( he’s better than Ibanez and Burrel) but all things considered, I agree the Dye deal would be best. ( what we they want? we wouldn’t give them KJ or Escobar for a 1 year rental …)

Think that they would bite on a deal involving Prado, Parr and a ptbnl?

Oh and good for FW for kicking those agents to the curb. I wonder if Moylan and Escobar will dump them now ?

Wouldn’t be surprised to see the rest of the GM’s require a signed document sent by them first from now on!!!

By Dave in Buford

December 18, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this

Dave, I’ve carefully avoided making any blog posts precisely because I didn’t see any reason to freak out … frankly, it’s obvious that the Braves were used to up offers from more wealthy teams, but that’s how the game is played.

The big difference, of course, is that you usually don’t see it played out in the doggone media, so we never used to hear about it.

I must admit, however, that I find your choice of song lyrics today amusing and appropriate.

Personally, I wouldn’t sign anybody represented by Boros to a contract to clean the bathrooms, but that’s just me.

BTW, I think Dye is a heck of a good direction to go … it makes perfect sense and his numbers are pretty damn good compared to what we’ve been watching the past two years. I’m not sure I agree with the idea of Sheets … I’d prefer to see someone without such a history of injuries, but unfortunately the Braves may have had their options limited to the point where those types of arms are all that is left.

By Trent

December 18, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this

DOB As always I appreciate the articles and the well thought out research on guys like Perez. Also, huge fan of the music selection and looking forward to your top 25 list. Here is a quick question if you have time for it. What are your thoughts on letting the younger guys like Hanson, Heyward, and Jordan S play now. If we’re going to be committed to the future what better way to prep for it then let those young guys play if they are mentally ready for it Thanks again for the hard work.

By Ramblin Wrecker

December 18, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this

START OVER. START OVER. START OVER.

That’s what Frank Wren and the Braves should repeat to themselves over and over. Just admit that currently there is no miracle moves to be made to make the Braves contenders in 2009, in fact some of the moves that they weren’t able to make or still might make can actually hinder the Braves’ REAL return to contention. The kids are the way to go. Just clear payroll, and wait for these kids to mature then strike on the trade/free agent markets to push your team over the hump. Just like 1991. All these half measures and stopgaps are boring me. Let’s strip it down and build it back up again.

By Kris in SC

December 18, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this

DOB-

Assuming we trade for Dye, or sign Burrell/Dunn, theres no way we’d take on both Lowe and Sheets, correct??

By Nick

December 18, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this

Oh , and I would really like to see if the Pirates would let us have a crack at Snell ( I can’t see them moving Maholm unless it’s for a huge package of prospects).

Snell has shown flashes of brilliance and appears to need a little confidence boosting and maybe some Smoltz/Glavine influencing … I think he could be a solid #2. I really do , he has good stuff!

By Shatner's Raw nerve

December 18, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this

Soo Mr. Wren wont deal with the Wasserman Media Group with them again….You can kiss goodbye to our favorite Aussie Peter Moylan when he’s a FA….What does that Mean for ATL???

By Big Easy

December 18, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this

Interesting, Joe M.

I went to their website, and I only saw one current Brave listed — Peter Moylan.

Maybe we can convince Moylan to change agencies?

~E~

By Jersey Gil

December 18, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this

DOB You are the Best…..Thanks & Marry Xmas

By ernesto

December 18, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this

I think an incentive-laden flyer on Mark Mulder wouldn’t be idiotic.

As far as Sheets goes, he turned down the Brewer’s offer of arb, didn’t he? So he’s obviously looking for something longer term than a year or two.

Be interesting to see where he nets out.

As far as this off-season goes, I tend to agree with all of those thinking some of the best deals we’ve ever done, might be the ones we didn’t get done this offseason.

By Matt

December 18, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

I agree with Ernest. I think the Bravos should simply “write off” 09 and let the youngsters play. Put Hanson in the rotation and get him ready for next year. Put Schaefer and/or Gorkys in the OF and see what they’ve got. At this point I don’t see us being able to put together a lineup capable of keeping up with the Mets and Phillies. Look back at the late 80’s when we let Smoltz and Glavine get their seasoning. Worked out well in the 90’s I’d say.

By Renegator

December 18, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

Its not Frank Wren being MLBs b*** this off-season that is the most frustrating (although it is frustrating) - it’s the organizations absolute refusal to consider certain players that actually could help them for 2009.

Examples: Jermaine Dye, Adam Dunn, Derek Lowe, Manny, etc

By rammerjammer

December 18, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

Oh, yeah…how long will it take the Players Association to file a grievance against the Braves for saying they won’t deal with the Wasserman group?

Watch for it.

By Arizona Brave

December 18, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

Everyday we inch closer to just signing a coule more middle-back of the rotation starters and “winging” this season. When can we start to hear Byrd, Garland, and Kawakami rumors flying around? And, what teams will steal them from us?

By NJBraves

December 18, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this

Get Peavy and take a chance on Sheets if you can do it cheaply. D.Lowe is not an ace.

By Nick

December 18, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this

I predicted Lowe tothe braves on my ( top 20 free agents destination) post over on chopnation. But , I had forgotten that Boras was his agent ( who incidentally now looks like an angel compared to those other bozos). I just can’t see us throwing 4 years at Lowe and I think that the Mets will.

Kinda like I think the Yankees will overpay for Sheets in years and/or $$$ if Petite turns down their offer.

I’d like to have Lowe , he’s dependable and a good clubhouse guy and seems a perfect fit with our defense… Plus in 2010 IF Hudson’s option vests and/or he signs , we could have the lowest HR’s allowed in baseball with those 2 at the front of the rotation.( especially considering the park has to favor Vazquez’s HR numbers going down, JJ as well)

By Ron Roberts

December 18, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this

I posted this towards the end of the last blog before it crashed; thought it was worth nothing.

DOB: I’m just theorizing, but maybe another team gets wind the Braves are interested in a player, and then during its own talks with that player or player’s agent the other team mentions what’s wrong with the Braves or that they have an unsettled future, etc. Again, I’m just theorizing about what he meant.

Please, this goes on in college recruiting all the time; I have a hard time believing it doesn’t happen in free agency at the MLB, NFL and NBA level, as well.

Besides, even if the Braves weren’t vocal or public about their FA targets, what’s to stop the FA’s agents use ‘em for leverage anyhow? I’m sure agents do a good bit of false intimating to drive up offers from teams legitimately interested in their client(s).

I’d be alarmed if this sorta thing hasn’t happened before, really. Lesson learned - until the documents are signed and physicals are passed, don’t count your dominican chickens til they catch a cab at an American airport :)

Question, DOB: What, if any, dialogue is onging with Smoltz’ folks and Wren? He can’t be happy that Smoltz’s agents are out shopping medical records when not one team can know, for sure, yet, if The Bearded Icon is worth such an investment yet in 2009, can he? I mean, are Smoltz’s people so concerned that the Braves will make one of those callous “business decisions” to not tender an offer to him that they’re assuming Smoltz is having to look elsewhere for employment? I mean, we hear alot (especially the last 48 hours) about “gentleman’s agreements” and such, and I’d have to believe there’s an unwritten agreement that the Braves will deal with Smoltz appropriately when all indications are in to make such a decision, no?

I’m almost of the belief that the Smoltz signing could be the biggest decision made this off-season for the ATL. If he’s as effective (and probably more-so after a successful surgery) as he was when he left us, he’s that top-tier ace we want/need, to pair with JJ, Vasquez, et al, isn’t he?

I mean, before you’d take a chance on a Ben Sheets wouldn’t you first take a chance on a John Smoltz first?

That line of thinking has me thinking the Braves would only pursue Derek Lowe, and not Sheets, were that the case.

By Bravenate

December 18, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this

Braves need to calm down, wait for the spring training and see what they have, where they are stand and then plan from there.

There is a lot of talent on this team, they need to drive the boat in the same direction, start planing for 2010 season instead of spend the money just for the reason that they have the money and need to spend, give an oportunity to all those youngsters that are in the team and the ones that should came up to the bigs during the season.

I prefer to cheer for the effort that evry one of those young players will be doing every play and every day than be complaining about the lack of intensity that an expensive FA is going to bring to this club.

By NCmike

December 18, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this

Here’s an IDEA

The Braves offer some sort of package including Jeff and Kelly to land an upper tier SP. Then they can sign both Dunn and Burrell. Now, they’re both a little slow in the outfield, but that’s ok. We can put both Schafer and Gorkys in the outfield too. Kotchman, Escobar and Chipper are all gold-glove caliber infielders, so they should be able to cover it between the three of them. There we go, problems solved… Braves get the power bat they need (two in fact), a solid lead-off hitter (two in fact) and a top SP too. Man, I should be running this team!!!

By ô¿ô

December 18, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this

i love the idea of getting Lowe and Dye - Dye seems like a perfect fit for the braves for 1 or 2 years untill heyward is ready - but what would it cost???

i seriously believe this Team will contend in 2009 if they can get both Dye And Lowe - but i would be happy if they atleast get 1 of the 2

By Mark

December 18, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this

I have no problem making this a re-building year, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to just throw the young guys in there to take their lumps. Why not let them continue to develop at a steady pace and gain confidence? I’ve got no problem letting guys like Hanson and Schaffer battle it out for spots in the spring, but no reason to just throw them in there just because you say you’re rebuilding.

By rammerjammer

December 18, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this

For the first time, I’m disappointed in Frank Wren. This public “calling out” of the agents’ group strikes me as juvenile. I mean, what’s the point of telling the world? Why not just file it away as something to keep in mind in the here and hereafter? You think other GMs are going to come forward and say, “Yeah! Me too! We’re fed up!!”

C’mon, Frank. Get a grip.

By ernesto

December 18, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this

mlbtraderumors, in addition to that surprising article where Wren says he’s not dealing with that agent again (satisyfing now, but is that smart long term?), is the list of 2010 free agents

Pitchers Webb (club option), Beckett, (club option) Huddy, Cliff Lee, Bedard, Harden

Relievers - Both Gonzo and Soriano

Outfielders Vlad, Bay, Holliday, Nady, Ordonez and perma-blog crushs Carl Crawford and Ryan Freel

We should be crashing many a blog in the 09 off season.

By MiamiBrave

December 18, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this

I believe we need to sign one or the other (Lowe/Sheets), because either one can be fit the Ace description…if Smoltzie can come back, you got another Ace type pitcher…

By spotts

December 18, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this

A couple questions for anyone to answer

1) What is Jurrjens’ potential? Could he be a future ace, or just a reliable middle-of-the rotation guy?

2) Would it just be better to focus this season on preparing for 2010? I hate being pessimistic, but I don’t see how our team can compete against the Mets and Phillies. And it doesn’t seem like the available free agents would be able to help much.

By Jonathon

December 18, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this

Here’s the good thing about Moylan: he’s not even arbitration eligible until 2010. The Braves can assign him whatever salary they want for 2009. His arbitration years are 2010, 2011, and 2012. Won’t be a free agent until 2013. That’s a long time from now, so Frank won’t have to deal very much with Wasserman concerning Moylan.

By Ron Roberts

December 18, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this

I want to point out to those who keep pushing us to go after starters from teams like the Pirates and Royals….

…we won all of 5 more games than the Pirates last year, and the Royals won 3 MORE games than we did in 2008.

The mentality that Pittsburgh and Kansas City are easy fodder for us to plunder is a dead-end theory, folks. If they have a guy like Ian Snell or Zack Greinke, then they’re in no worse a situation than we are, and it can be argued that they might be better-situated to make a postseason run in 2009, actually, given our current holes and question marks (especially Kansas City in my opinion).

By Mike A

December 18, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this

AJ Burnett had never won more than 12 before last year, either, yet the Braves were ready to commit 80 million to him. Not to mention he was not exactly the paragon of health. I don’t see why we would be completely gunshy about giving Sheets 30 million and crossing a whole bunch of fingers.

I wouldn’t make any long-term decisions with Francoeur in mind. He’s going to have to improve a ton just to get back to average. Not to mention Heyward is probably a good 2 years away. If Burrell can be signed for cheap on a 2/3 year deal, I don’t see why not. Despite his defensive issues, he has the RH pop the Braves desperately need.

Jermaine Dye is aging, costs prospects, and is pretty mediocre defensively as well. Pass.

By Interested Observer

December 18, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this

I don’t see the harm in pursuing Sheets. I assume he’d take less years and less money than Burnett, who was also considered an injury risk. Any deal would be contingent on a physical so the Braves could check out the elbow and everything else before committing to anything.

By Jonathon

December 18, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this

You can pretty much squelch any trade rumors for guys like KC’s Jose Guillen, too. He’s represented by Wasserman Media Group.

By Jonathon

December 18, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

Randy Wolf is also represented by WMG. So we should probably not include him in free agent pitching discussions on the ‘ol blog.

By a fan

December 18, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this

Just went to wassermans website. They represent Peter Moylan.

By ernesto

December 18, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this

And I still think Ty Wiggington makes good sense for this team. Only played a handful of games in the OF? How many had chipper played before he went out there?.

By KC

December 18, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this

We’ll probably have to decidedly overpay to attract either Lowe or even Sheets to Atlanta. Ordinarily, I’d be against that. I think not overpaying (to any considerable degree) was one of the reasons for their prolonged success through the 90’s and beyond.

HOWEVER, given that the Braves are no longer a particularly desirable destination (not UNdesirable, but not especially desirable as they were a few years ago)… they may have to go ahead and do something semi-drastic here.

When you’re a winning team with a positive outlook for the foreseeable future, you have better luck winning over free agents (and players with no-trade clauses). The Braves have the latter portion of that equation, I think, but they are coming off their first 90 win season in 17 years. That makes the Braves a harder sell for many would-be additions.

You may have to overpay, at least once, to get that piece you need to put you back on top.

There are some opportunities right now for a power bat on the trade market, and more possibilities may present themselves in the next few weeks, and certainly in June or July.

But a #1 starter? Gotta get one of those now, any way you can if you’re going to have any real positive chance of competing next year. Even if it means overpaying… just this once.

By Wilson

December 18, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

DOB, do you think Wren’s emotions and/or pride is getting in the way or has the potential to get in the way of the Braves making deals either here or down the road? I understand his reasoning and all, but I have a hard time seeing how tying your hands by saying you won’t approach the Padres for a Peavy deal, won’t deal with Tellum clients, and want to avoid Boras clients if you can is helping your organization improve. Seems to me that that is hindering more than helping.

By Nick

December 18, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

NCMike

The Braves offer some sort of package including Jeff and Kelly to land an upper tier SP. Then they can sign both Dunn and Burrell. Now, they’re both a little slow in the outfield, but that’s ok. We can put both Schafer and Gorkys in the outfield too. Kotchman, Escobar and Chipper are all gold-glove caliber infielders, so they should be able to cover it between the three of them. There we go, problems solved… Braves get the power bat they need (two in fact), a solid lead-off hitter (two in fact) and a top SP too. Man, I should be running this team!!!

We’d give up an extra run or two a game with both of those slugs in the outfield. I don’t mind one of them in LF , but in RF too? Good lord , we’d have to have Manny AND Ortiz in our lineup to make up for the amount of runs we’d allow. It wouldn’t really be much incentive for any pitching either too look out there and see two nose pickers in the outfield!

Dye in LF, Frenchy in RF, Schaefer/Anderson in CF. Decent defense ( especially with Dye in LF , he’d be a good LF defender compared to RF) and good arms out there too!

Oh and on the music front, ever gone to jango.com? i just discovered it a few months ago. You program your own live online jukebox( no downloading so it’s legit) I love it !

By Serge

December 18, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this

You dont want the Braves to go after a poor defender like Burell? But Suggest an even poorer Dye?

and while thinking that Frenchy can come back what if he doesnt? What then

SIGN BURELL!

By Random

December 18, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this

I gave this to Bradley a little while ago while waiting for the Braves/MIB blog relaunch:

To get this “fookie” taste out of our mouths, why don’t we take another look at one thing at least that did not go wrong this off-season (imo).

Below are some excerpts from Christina Kahrl’s analysis of the JVazquez/TFlowers (et al) trade, from Baseball Prospectus, here — “A Peach of a Deal”.

Braves Acquired RHP Javier Vazquez and LHP Boone Logan from the White Sox for C-R Tyler Flowers, SS-R Brent Lillibridge, 3B-R Jon Gilmore, and LHP Santos Rodriguez.

The Braves haven’t been to the playoffs since 2005, not for lack of trying. In that time, regearing the lineup with younger, better parts continued as smoothly as before, with prospects like Brian McCann, Kelly Johnson, Yunel Escobar, and seemingly Jeff Francouer all successfully integrated. Think about that for a second: three quality up-the-middle regulars, with Jordan Schafer and Gorkys Hernandez on the way up to potentially complete the set. Add that sort of good stuff to Chipper Jones on one corner or another, and you have a lineup that ought to be part of a contender. Same old Braves, right?

The problem’s been the team’s pitching. However, last year’s reunion rotation didn’t solve all their problems, nor did the recent abandonment of what had been a decades-long experience with the fundamental replaceability of most relief pitching. Keeping the rotation going with thirtysomethings hasn’t really worked out so well in the last several seasons: eventually, old men break down or peter out. Mike Hampton was less than what they needed, and then he wasn’t even that the last four years. John Smoltz got old, Tim Hudson’s busted, and bringing back Tom Glavine proved as lamentable in practice as it appeared at first blush. Anticipated retread successes, another regular feature in the glory days, with John Thomson and Jorge Sosa didn’t work out. Home-grown hurler Chuck James disappeared under a welter of walks and homers before breaking down. Nabbing Jair Jurrjens from the Tigers and Jorge Campillo off the rejects pile kept things going nicely last season, but that did not a rotation make, and the Braves’ unit finished 11th in the league in SNLVA Rate, 12th in Expected Wins, and next to last in starter innings pitched in 2008.

So yeah, they need starting pitching. They also have a gaggle of desireable prospects, and apparently they still want to give this contending thing a shot, rather than curl up for a year and wait for the kids. Like a lot of teams, the Braves aren’t affording themselves the time to rebuild, and they instead focus on retooling. That can mean making space for the kids once they come, but it also means some more of the same, getting somebody else’s thirtysomething starter, somebody already under contractual control. Landing Vazquez is just the latest iteration of this particular play, and while I like the deal, it’s important to recognize that this is an act of repetition to keep this club hanging around an 80-win talent level that automatically puts you in the playoff picture in the senior circuit.

Of himself, Vazquez is a decent enough pickup, a mid-rotation starter who’s flirted with being slightly more than that at times. Last season’s .504 SNLVA Rate doesn’t sound great, rating 91st among all big-league starters with 100 IP, a big drop from his 2007 mark of .566, but of a piece with his 2006 mark of .500. Arguments that he’ll be happier and perhaps more dominant in the NL have to go back to his Expos days more than five years ago, and conveniently overlook that he was as adequate as ever in his season with the Snakes in 2005 (.531), which wasn’t all that much better than his much-lamented season with the Yankees in ‘04 (.520). It’s more important to accept that his range is as a guy who’ll give you 30 starts or more, and give you solid performance, not dominance. That’s entirely acceptable, of course, especially when the alternative might be a call to a tanned, rested, and forever unready Rick Behenna.

The change of leagues is going to help him of course, but not really because getting out of the Cell is going to make a big difference for him—in his three seasons as a White Sock, he allowed 4.4 R/9 against 4.9 R/9 on the road. No, what’s going to make a difference for Vazquez is his problem with getting through the sixth inning, which has been especially tough for Vazquez in recent seasons. As a matter of timing, that’s usually around when a starting pitcher is seeing the heart of the order the third time, but in the NL, with the pitcher’s slot generating easier outs, that might happen a little later in an individual start. If Vazquez’s problem is a combination of the best hitters getting a good look at him and running out of gas around his 90th pitch, that can be mitigated a bit by a manager more inclined to recognize the need to hook him while the hooking’s good, instead of a skipper who dares you to finish what you started, and then gets understandably cranky when you predictably don’t. Assuming the exchange of the pitcher for the DH helps avoid his past problems of hitting the wall against a lineup’s best the third time through, Vazquez could wind up with a superficially excellent-seeming season if Bobby Cox hooks him after six innings. Cox wouldn’t have to be obvious about it and insult Vazquez’s dignity—NL skippers always have pinch-hitting and double-switch possibilities to bring into play—and Vazquez wouldn’t really be a radically different pitcher. He’d simply be given the advantage of being lifted before he was pushed into too many of those unhappy third at-bats against the people who can hurt him.

The financial element of this deal shouldn’t be underrated. While Vazquez isn’t cheap—$23 million over 2009 and 2010—put that money in the context of the current market. You simply can’t get a known quantity like Vazquez for a two-year deal from among this winter’s free agents. Put this move up against spending more over three or four years for some mid-market rotation regular, and this move comes across as especially inspired as an adaptation to what little time the Braves have left to run as Chipper Jones’ ballclub. If they can’t make a better play at contention in 2009 than they have the last three years, it won’t be a matter of turning the page—it will have already been turned and glued shut.

Finally, on the most fundamental level you have to credit the Braves for what this deal boils down to in terms of impact at the big-league level: they got a solid mid-rotation starter, and they didn’t have to give up any of their better prospects in the deal. Sure, skip putting Jason Heyward or Tommy Hanson into an exchange of this nature, but they didn’t even have to deal from their second rank, the guys like Jordan Schafer and Gorkys Hernandez, and this despite the fact that they’re making a trade with a team that needs a center fielder? Admittedly, if the Sox had gotten Hernandez or Schafer, that would have been a real coup, but I don’t mean to beat up on Kenny Williams in this space—he did apparently try to get them, and he didn’t. The Braves were willing to deal from depth in prospects and take on salary, and working with an organization that could use the salary space and the talent. From Frank Wren on down, the Braves deserve credit in targeting Vazquez—rarely in Ozzie Guillen’s favor for any great length of time—and getting him relatively reasonably with prospects they could afford to trade away.

As for getting Logan, I guess I’m of two minds on the subject. He’s a lefty who cooks with gas, but he’s also acquired a rep as a guy not especially gifted with a lot of aptitude. Maybe Roger McDowell will reach him where another good pitching coach, Don Cooper, apparently struggled, but I’m reluctant to get as enthusiastic about adding Logan as I was yesterday about the organization’s grabbing Eric O’Flaherty on waivers. If I had to put O’Flaherty, Logan, and Jeff Ridgway in some particular order, that would be it, and it’s nice that all of them have better than average velocity for southpaws. While I doubt that Emperor Charles V was talking about lefty relief help when he picked Plus ultra as his motto, I guess the Braves can take some satisfaction in achieving Redundancy plus ultra.

(Fair Use is Permitted: Fair use of copyrighted material includes the use of protected materials for noncommercial purposes such as research, peer review, commentary and news reporting.)

By Fan-coeur (Frenchy has heart)

December 18, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this

I haven’t heard much talk about Ty Wigginton? He would be a great fit to this team, and we wouldn’t need a trade. He doesn’t want to go back to the Pirates. And how about Nate McLouth? Could we trade for him? The Pirates did not offer him a long-term deal to him, though he will stick around with them until 2010.

BTW, Pirates want to lock up Maholm long-term, so so much for that.

And it would be costly for us to trade for Greinke so I don’t like that idea.

I’m not big on Abreu or Burrell, and I think Ankiel will be costly. As much as I’d love to have Dye with us, acquiring him will be costly as well…(I don’t want us to empty our farm systems for any player at all, remember Tex)

Finally, why don’t we go for Lowe or Sheets and try to get the Japanese dude and call it a team?

By N8

December 18, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this

Good talk with Kincade on the radio DOB. Agree with everything you said.

Especially the thought that the Braves might be better off stop-gapping things until 2010. But then again, you knew I already felt that way.

The part that I disagree with, even though it’s not your opinion, but you relaying the POSSIBLE thought process of Wren and the Braves regarding the OF situation.

I say “so what” if they sign a guy like Dunn or Burrell (or trade for Dye - the LEAST of the three options - I’d rather hang on to prospects), and said OF is “blocking” the young OFr’s in a couple of years.

Now, granted, it’s not MY money. But IF they want to contend this year, they might have to be willing to eat the money 2 or 3 years down the road in a 3 year deal for a guy like Dunn.

Granted it was smaller contracts, but the Braves DID dump Quilvio Veras to bring up Giles. They did dump Mondesi to bring Frenchy.

And after all, they basically “ate” Hampton’s contract last year. I don’t see any more risk in possibly eating the last year of a 3 year deal for Dunn, to make room for Heyward, than the risk in offering Burnett 16 million per year or whatever it was. But that’s just me.

Like I said, I’m actually all for, just riding it out and letting the kids play. But taking that path, might ultimately end Smoltz’ desire to remain a Brave. Which would be sad.

But the man deserves to win if he goes through the effort to return. The Braves owe him that much. Then again, a healthy Smoltz (along with Hanson coming on strong), might be enough to keep us in it.

As for Furcal? I’m more angry about Wren being a whipping boy, more than NOT getting Dookie. I’ve lost ALL respect for Dookie (and I didn’t have much before this nonsense). Good for Wren “cutting off” Dookie’s agents. But unfortunately, that answers one of my questions on the other blog directed at you.

Apparently it will affect ALL dealings with their other clients. Which sucks when it comes to Escobar. Although, he is under “control” for a while, what is to stop him from “holding out” (I get that it happens more often in the NFL), for a new contract and becoming a “Mini-Manny” and along with his agents, wiggles his way out of a Braves uniform?

THAT would suck. Too bad Brayan Pena isn’t stil here, to be his voice of reason, huh?

By Nick

December 18, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this

Just had a thought about Smoltz. IF he can pitch , there is no way the Braves will let him walk. The worst they would do would be to sign him , let him put up some numbers and then move him at the deadline for some good prospects. ( with his consent of course as he’s a 10-5 guy)

if he really thinks this is his last year and wants to go for a ring, I’d feel no guilt by trading him to the Sox or whomever , if it meant we got a return on him instead of just letting him walk.

By Coach Smith

December 18, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this

SIGN MANNY to a two year 50 mil dollar deal

It fills a need now, and then his salary is cleared for the young guys

Sign LOWE for 15-16 mil 3 year contract

sign SMOLTZ

and lets go to battle in the east

By Random

December 18, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this

And here are Ms Kahrl’s comments on Tyler Flowers from Baseball Prospectus, op cit:

Flowers is the obvious prize, though his glove work behind the dish is questionable enough that he’s no sure thing. Which is not to say this is a bad pack, it’s just that it’s comprised of disparate parts, players on different trajectories moving at different speeds who might answer different needs at different times. Lillibridge can run and he can handle short well enough, but he was also highly overrated after a batting average-inflated 2006 season, and there’s a pretty good chance he’s just a utility player who allows the Sox to wean themselves from the Age of Ozuna once and for all. He’s not a bad add, but he’s also probably not a starting shortstop that lets the Sox move Alexei Ramirez to third instead of short, which means the Ramirez-at-short experiment isn’t being ended before it gets started. Lillibridge also doesn’t pose much danger for Chris Getz at second. So, he’s filler.

…

Which brings us back to the player who has to make this deal really work, Flowers. Getting a top catching prospect is a good idea in the abstract, and it’s interesting (in light of all the attention) that Kenny Williams managed to pull it off with a team that wasn’t the Rangers. What makes him a prospect is that he’s a catcher who hits, and heading into what will be his age-23 season, he’s also ready for Double-A, which puts him into the range of possibilities as far as arriving at the end of ‘09 if that goes really well, and perhaps more reasonably 2010. (Which matters, in light of the club’s financial commitment to A.J. Pierzynski through that very season.) He put the hurt on the Carolina League as something more than just a Three True Outcomes type, thwacking 32 doubles from a .288 clip while also delivering 200 walks and strikeouts in 520 PA (split almost evenly, 98 walks and 102 whiffs). While everyone’s worked up over his exceptional AFL performance, I wouldn’t get worked up over the numbers there—I still have that James Mouton hangover to live down—as much as they represent a continuation of his second-half breakout for Myrtle Beach, hitting .328/.454/.586 after the league’s all-star break. If you want to believe that might make him the new Piazza, you can be forgiven that—it’s clear that he’s breaking out, and might climb the ladder fast.

…

To recap, I can accept a big bet on Flowers being something at the plate because of the development curve, even while I think that taking the risk that he could pan out at catcher is pretty speculative. Basically, the bat could play at first and DH, and in an organization employing Jim Thome for one more year and Paul Konerko for two, that has value to the Sox even if he doesn’t pan out at catcher. Gilmore and Rodriguez are long-term markers, guys we won’t really know whether the tools translate into high confidence-level projectable results for another couple of years, but both are worth having. Lillibridge might have the most name recognition; you’ll get over that.

(Fair Use is Permitted: Fair use of copyrighted material includes the use of protected materials for noncommercial purposes such as research, peer review, commentary and news reporting.)

By Jonathon

December 18, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this

None of the players due to become free agents in 2010 that the Braves might be interested in are WMG clients:

Adam LaRoche (I only mention b/c he’s a former Braves; I don’t think they really want him back) Mark DeRosa Omar Infante (BRAVE) Brian Roberts Chone Figgins Jason Bay Vladimir Guerrero Chipper Jones (BRAVE) Eric Bedard Justin Duchscherer Rich Harden John Lackey Mike Gonzalez (BRAVE) Rafael Soriano (BRAVE) Billy Wagner

By Rodney Derrick

December 18, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this

The Hall of Fame Tour Solution— braves should sign griffey to platoon with diaz, andruw in deal where dodgers pay all but 2 million of his salary, randy johnson so we can have the 300th win, and of course glavine and smoltz… with cox, this will be a great tour of memories…and who knows, they might all produce….but if and when the braves fall out of contention, trade all of them plus chipper to contenders for big payoff in great young players….added to current youngsters on team and in system and we can have new dynasty!

hire maddux as next manager for next year….all pitchers and hitters will want to play for him to get his knowledge.

Plus with Roger continuing as pitching coach, Braves will have the best two humorists in baseball. Then bring up the AA Manager who stole second base and who Francoeur idolizes, and the Braves can really attract crowds to the Stadium while waiting for the young guys to develop.

By THE BEAR

December 18, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this

MLB.com reports that Furcal’s income from the Dodgers is the same as it would have been from the Braves. Here is their breakdown and I quote. Link:[http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081217&content_id=3720331&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp]

*Furcal receives salaries of $6.5 million, $8.5 million and $12 million. The team option for 2012 is for $12 million, but vests with 600 plate appearances in 2011. There is a $3 million deferred signing bonus. Furcal, 31, is coming off a $39 million, three-year deal with the Dodgers. He played for the Braves from 2000-05. *

$6.5+$8.5+$12 million totals $27 million. Add the $3 mil bonus to that and you get $30 million for three years, the same as reported to have been offered by the Braves.

I believe the agents’ commission is based on the total income and in that case they will make the same. BUT when it comes to Furcal he will actually be earning $330,000 a year less with the Dodgers than he would have made with Atlanta. I wonder if his agents told him that the California income tax is 9.3% while Georgia’s is 6%. If you multiply 3.3% by $10 million a year you will easily see that his net income is $330,000 less per year and we haven’t even looked at the cost of living in California compared to Atlanta.

I doubt Furcal is astute enough about such matters to even think of them. On the other hand perhaps he will get a bit angry when informed and fire his agents as a result of them lifting that much from his hip pocket. I know I would.

By Sarah

December 18, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this

There’s no pleasing yall.

“Frank Wren is overbidding.” “Frank Wren isn’t trying hard enough.” “It’s Frank Wren’s fault he got screwed over.”

Now rammerjammer wants to say the man can’t complain? What, is it “not professional”? Hm, ironic..

Why “file it away”? Like he said, he’s not worried about burning bridges.

By Salty

December 18, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this

I wouldn’t make any long-term decisions with Francoeur in mind. He’s going to have to improve a ton just to get back to average.

Dayum! One bad year and ‘poof’, you’re gone? Sheesh! Frenchy over the hill at 25…who saw that coming?

He may not improve, but his track record of success beats hell out of last season. Which is the norm; which is the exception…I’m willing to hazard last year was abnormal.

By Jonathon

December 18, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this

Here’s a link to a great site that list all the contract/agent info for every Braves player:

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/atlanta-braves_15.html

By flange1

December 18, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this

DOB,

In these troubled times, thanks for the new blog!

Interesting article Jeff Schultz wrote on JS’s reaction to the Furcal situation.

He paints the picture as worse that FW painted it..

I am for signing Sheets. If he can last 3/4 of a year, Hudson or Smoltz or Hanson could fill in.

Sign him for 2 years and you could have a glut of pitcher in 2010….

By Fan-coeur (Frenchy has heart)

December 18, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this

Smoltzie come back!

By McFann O –[zzz]

December 18, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this

Did you guys…um…did you guys hear the news?

Earlier this week, McCann and Jones both accepted invitations to compete for Team USA during the upcoming Classic, which will be staged March 5-23.

Spring Training won’t be the same…

By j-school dropout

December 18, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this

You gotta love John Schuerholz. He’s a gentleman, and he expects honesty in his business partners. That’s old school class.

By Wayne Glass

December 18, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this

GREAT BLOG BRO ! My favorite part of the AJC. Furcal was a liability.

By AGTfan

December 18, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this

Hooray for the Braves

I’m not that upset about losing Furcal, but the way it was handled was every bit as bad as JS described. I applaud the Braves for taking a principalled stand. NEVER do business with those folks again.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

By Rodney Derrick

December 18, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this

Some have talked about Alex Rios with Halladay in a trade with Toronto. After looking at the evil Wasserman Group client list, Rios is on the list. of course, Halladay would be fabulous. Some talk about Dye. Why not Bobby Abreu? Faster and better in the field and just as good a hitter. Also reportedly a pretty good clubhouse guy. Another issue with Oliver Perez for pitching is that it would take him away from Mets, and then the Braves would not have to hit against him, and he is a lefty. Perhaps his old teammate Mike Gonzalez and Perez have good chemistry, and Tom Glavine likely had big impact on him with Mets.

By Drummerdad

December 18, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this

I absolutely loved Schuerholz bringing the heat on those creeps. The busted deal goes beyond whether or not we got Furcal. It gets to principle. It may not mean anything much to anybody else, but a long time baseball heavyweight just thundered and it means a lot to me as a fan.

DOB, Who do you trade for Dye?

By N8

December 18, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this

I just read Heyman’s SI article, and when I came back to the AJC Braves page, saw that Schulz had an article up with JS’s comments about Furcal’s agency.

I have NEVER been more proud of JS for his comments he made in that statement. For JS to have Wren’s “back” like that is truely stand up, IMO.

Good for you JS. Good for you.

For Wren to make the statement is one thing. But for a guy as respected in baseball (even though I think Bobby’s GM work is what started the run of in the right direction), is outstanding.

Telling them to “take the Braves of their speed-dial” ??

Priceless.

I sure hope that Hanson and (or) Heyward are not represented by them. LOL!

Now, if they wanted to take it to the next extreme, they should dump everybody currently in their system with them as their agents. Now THAT would be a “stand”.

By mbatl

December 18, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this

I like Burrell over Dye. Offensive numbers are about the same. Burrell is younger. I know Burrell ain’t much in LF, but from what I’ve read, Dye has tanked pretty bad defensively in the last couple of years too.

Burrell would demand a longer contract (which is bad) but wouldn’t require any prospects in trade (which is very good).

I’d like to see us sign Lowe and Burrell. When Heyward is ready, we’ll find a spot for him (RF in 2010 is my guess, with Frenchy gone). But I really don’t believe you can ever have too much talent.

DOB, it’s a testament to the popularity of your blog that it crashes every couple of days. Obviously, the designers, or the people hiring the designers, never envisioned 1000 posts in 24 hours… they’re gonna have to redesign to accommodate you. (sure wish it would happen soon, though… I hate those times when I can’t read up on the Braves’ Nation’s thoughts.)

Anyway, I would really like to see Wren work a deal with a Boras client (Lowe). If we’re gonna exclude (or at least not have a real shot at) Boras guys, and now Wasserman guys too, you really start to limit your access to top players. Pride is great, and sometimes you do need to stand on principle, but at some point, you’ve got to put good players on the field.

By nolie

December 18, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this

Steve Ohio, Efrim—

ON FRANK WREN J.C Bradbury Sabernomics.com

With the collapse of the Furcal-to-Atlanta deal, Frank Wren has been getting a lot of criticism. I’m not sure it’s warranted, but I think now is a good time to pass along a few thoughts related to the Braves GM.

* I heard Frank Wren on the the radio this morning (790 The Zone podcast), and he’s not happy about the Furcal situation. He stated a few important points that I want to pass along.
      o Furcal’s agent left a voice mail asking for a “term sheet” and stated “we’re good.” Wren emphasized that “we’re good” was a direct quote, and that in a business where face-to-face meetings are rare this constitutes a done deal.
      o He stated that he had talked to Furcal about moving to second base, and Furcal indicated that he was fine with the move.
      o Furcal’s agent did come back with further demands, but the terms were ones that the agent knew the Braves would reject, including a no-trade clause.
* Frank Wren is a good interview. He is nothing like his predecessor in this area. He responds in detail to questions, giving more than the minimum. He’s emotional, but conveys rational thoughts even when expressing emotions. John Schuerholz always sounded to me like he had other things to do and was annoyed by questions.
* I’m not sure you can say that Wren has performed differently from Schuerholz. My impression is that the Braves front office is a brain trust that still includes Schuerholz. When Wren was an assistant GM, he probably had a lot more power than most GMs. As a GM, I think that he has a little less power relative to other GMs. That doesn’t mean that Wren isn’t the leader, but I think the transition from Schuerholz to Wren hasn’t changed much about the organization. I recall that Schuerholz had considerable trouble working with agents.
* Recently, I referred to Frank Wren as a stat-head. The stat-head designation was meant to be humorous, and I did not mean for it to be taken seriously. Since that post, I have seen several references to Wren being stat-savvy, and I think my post is partially responsible. I want to clear this up. I am sure that the Braves use statistical methods to help evaluate talent just as all ballclubs do. There is no organization that eschews quantitative analysis; however, some are more partial to stats than others. The information I have about Wren is that he is not a stat-focused decision-maker. From speaking with several sources regarding Wren, my impression is that Wren is somewhat hostile to quantitative analysis. Just because Wren used some DIPSish reasoning to defend a pitcher doesn’t mean that type of analysis is driving the organization. My guess is that ocular scouting played a larger role in evaluating Javier Vazquez than quantitative analysis.

By Random

December 18, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this

Jonathon—

The Braves have plenty of other and better reasons not to go after either Jose Guillen or Randy Wolf.

Neither of them would qualifiy as a nose the Braves have cut off to spite their face.

By Sarah

December 18, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this

McFann I saw that! I’m going down on the 19th & I was so bummed out when I saw the dates for the WBC.

You’re right, Spring Training really won’t be the same.

By kirkinga

December 18, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this

DOB thanks for the new blog and attempting to put the Braves offseason into perspective.You’re right that people have a right to be disappointed so far, but the season has yet to be played.

I think Wren will go stop-gap because that is what he said he wanted to do back at the end of the season.He never used the word “stop-gap” but he said the Braves wanted the talent to come up and would spend this offseason filling holes until they arrived. That sounds like a “stop-gap” approach to me.

Wren also said he wanted established starters to help mentor the young ones. So the range of possibilities is much larger if we think established starter rather than ace.

The price for a good #2 would still be high, but not as high as we’ve tried to go so far.Wren just needs time to work his plan. Again, I appreciate the Braves not cutting back in tough times.

By Nocturnal Owl

December 18, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this

I have NEVER been more proud of JS for his comments he made in that statement. For JS to have Wren’s “back” like that is truely stand up, IMO. Good for you JS. Good for you. N8

Absolutely worth repeating.. I can’t agree anymore…I love JS ;) First smile in a few days.

By ShawnB

December 18, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this

DOB you are the MAN. That “speaking of cow races” section was absolutely classic!! LOVE the blog and the work you do my man, keep up the great work and keep letting all the haters just slide off your back. Have a great, safe vacation. Though I hope you’ll at least poke your head in a time or two, don’t know what some of us will do without a little banter from you.

By sugarbearblanks

December 18, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this

This four year should get Furcal to retirement age 65. Should add about 8 years age for eeach of the next 4 years. It’s time for another Dominican ‘age spurt’.

By Tyler

December 18, 2008 5:22 PM | Link to this

DOB Is Peter Moylan represented by the Wasserman Media Group? How will that effect his future with the Braves?

By Psg81

December 18, 2008 5:22 PM | Link to this

They are the agents of Peter Moylan and Escobar

By playertobenamedlater

December 18, 2008 5:22 PM | Link to this

The Braves need to sign at least one more innings-eater like Javy to keep from overusing/abusing any young arms.

Essentially, buy a couple of beaters to get you around town while you are still breaking in the Jag.

Even if we don’t compete this year we still have to have a certain number of innings pitched. My fear would be throwing JJ, Hanson and a few young arms in the bullpen too many of those so the guys are hurt for 2010.

What about somebody like Tim Wakefield? Or is that why we signed Lance Niekro? (I realize he probably will be in the minors).

By siskel

December 18, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this

I think FW needs to hire John Rocker as a special assistant, it seems we are having problems closing deals. Ha, I crack myself up.

By MGL

December 18, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this

Boy is JS hot!!

http://www.ajc.com/braves/content/sports/braves/stories/2008/12/18/atlantabravesjohn_schuerholz.html

By Efrim

December 18, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this

Burrell or Dunn could end up signing two year deals. It’s possible given the market for underrated offensive, poor defensive left fielders. Dye isn’t a very good defender anymore either. Not like he used to be. He’s better than the other two though. How much will he cost in a trade? I hear Williams liked our CF prospects. I really don’t like the idea of trading Gorkys Hernandez or Jordan Schafer for Jermaine Dye. I guess, if the Braves really want to contend next year, than Gorkys for Dye makes sense. But personally, I would not make that trade.

By McFann O –[zzz]

December 18, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this

My respect for JS just went up a notch or two.

Sarah—

Man! That stinks! I’m sorry…

I guess I should be happy for him though, right? But gee wiz—why does the WBC have to be during ST? Not that we’re going down there, but…I couldn’t wait to see him play, you know—with his new physique.

By Moosher

December 18, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

This may have been mentioned already, but our very own Peter Moylan is rep’d by that agency. What does this do to him?

By McFann O –[zzz]

December 18, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this

Not to mention, I really like following his Spring Training stats…I don’t know why. I guess ‘cause there’s finally some baseball. It also has something to do with my Diary…

But yes, I’m happy…I very happy…I guess?

By billy ray braves fan

December 18, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this

I think Kinzer’s biggest “goof” may have been leaving the voice mail saying, “We’re good …”

I wonder how many times that message was replayed in the Braves’ offices before both Schuerholz and Wren went public with this thing.

I understand what the real estate agent is saying. I do. But, this goes a step further because Kinzer took the term sheet, which according to media outlets over the last couple of days, is “golden”, and then shopped it.

It’s one thing to communicate what the Braves offered, we know that happens all the time. It’s a whole different issue to ask the Braves for the term sheet, within the context of what that means in sports, and then take that document to the Dodgers as “proof”.

If that is what Kinzer did, that is nasty.

By BravesAreDone

December 18, 2008 5:36 PM | Link to this

No chance for division title this year. Time to start preparing for the future.

By TennesseePaul

December 18, 2008 5:36 PM | Link to this

Heyward and Hanson might be the most talented homegrown prospects in the Braves’ system since Andruw Jones

How does that make you feel McFann?

Wren… said he’s notified the Wasserman Media Group the Braves will no longer be doing business with them…

YES!!! Wipe Randy Wolf off the charts! That is by far the best news I’ve heard this winter.

By David O'Brien

December 18, 2008 5:39 PM | Link to this

Mark, Moylan’s not eligible for free agency until after the 2011 season. Others asked about Escobar — he’s not a free agent until after the 2011 or 2012 season (I’ll have to check his service time to be sure). Point is, agents are not really an issue anytime soon with either.

By Bill in ATL

December 18, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this

I’m as angry and disappointed as the next guy over the Furcal situation but I don’t accept that the Braves can’t compete in 2009, at least not at this stage.

If Smoltz is either not able to go or signs with another club I’ll be more concerned.

If Jair has a sophomore slump it will be a big concern.

If Frenchy comes back as the 2008 version it will be a big problem not only for 2009 but later years as well.

There are a lot of things that can happen between now and the early part of the season that would make me believe that we can’t win the division, but none of what’s happened so far convinces me that it’s time to give up and exclusively build for 2010.

As it stands now we are perhaps 1 good SP (Lowe) and 1 good OF (Dye) away from being about as good as any other team in the East (assuming everyone is healthy and Francouer is back to his pre 2008 form) and we have the money and prospects to fill those spots before March rolls around.

The glass is half full and there is water out there to fill our cup to the top. Hopefully Wren can get it done without damaging the future, which is bright by all accounts.

Just a reminder, the Braves were still very much alive last year past the midway point even after losing Smoltz, Glavine, Moylan, Hampton, Soriano, a lot of time from Chipper, Kotsay, Diaz and not having Gonzo for the first half. That was after also setting a ML record for consecutive one run road losses.

The Braves are NOT a 90 loss franchise. Last year was a horribly unlucky fluke that could have happened to almost any team under the same circumstances.

If ZERO moves were made other than signing (an assumed for the moment healthy) Smoltz I would expect the Braves to have a shot in 2009. If more pieces are added then, even better.

By Howie in Augusta

December 18, 2008 5:42 PM | Link to this

Christmas list : 1 - Another starter 2 - A better year from Francour 3 - 130plus games from Chipper 4 - No more trades for infielders as we have enough 5 - John Smoltz 6 - Another all-star yr. from McCann 7 - Rafael Furcal to have his worst yr.ever 8 - Andruw Jones to repeat last season 9 - A radio broadcast crew at least half as good as Skip and Pete 10 - $10 parking at the stadium 11 - John Shurholz to keep speaking out when someone screws us.. 12 - Tom Glavine’s retirement announcement 13 - 90 wins and a wild card THANK U SANTA

By McFann O –[zzz]

December 18, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this

10Paul—

I don’t know.

By BravesAC

December 18, 2008 5:44 PM | Link to this

JS…you’re a true standup guy to make the Braves stance clear to the Tellum collection of crap. The Braves have to stand for something…to have a code of conduct. To stick to that code, even in down times, is what gives being a Brave value beyond all the money being made by clubs,players,etc.

Wren…don’t trade core prospects for mediocre talent. Pass on Sheets,Perez (especially Perez), and wait to see if there’s an arm or two needing a job when the camps open (remember how Lohse(sp?) worked out well for the Cardinals in a similar situation). Be a buyer in mid 2009 when financial troubles make many clubs eager sellers. Draft real well with the high draft choice come June.

Be patient for 2010, The Braves will be back. I’d rather wait for something of value, a real plan, vs a patch and a patch there like the last 2 years.

By ernesto

December 18, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a ball club saying they unilaterally wouldn’t deal with athletes from a whole agency.

Anyone?

By ShawnB

December 18, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this

Is it true that Escobar is rep’d by Kizner as well? I know he’s not eligible for free agency for a few years, but would still be a little concerning.

By RonRoberts

December 18, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this

As for Kinzer’s clients currently on the roster, I’m less concerned about losing Escobar (if the Braves took th edrastic route of dealing them away) than I would be about a rejuvinated Moylan, frankly.

I think Yunel’s still Padre-trade bait, anyhow.

By Nick

December 18, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this

Dye’s Fielding runs above averag was 10 last year. ( meaning he saved 10 runs over average replacement) This in Rf a harder outfield spot than LF.

Burrel’s was -9 ( meaning he gave up 9 more runs than average replacement LF)

Abreu’s was -10 ( gave up 10 more than replacemnt in RF)

Dunn’s was -1 ( not too horrible compared to the other 2) The numbers for other fielding stats are similar. Dye is far better than Dunn who when comparing Abreu coming from RF , is about + with Abreu in LF . Burrell is FAR worse out there than the rest of them.

No Pat the Bat please!!!!

By Interested Observer

December 18, 2008 5:51 PM | Link to this

What about Moylan and Escobar when they come up for arbitration? wouldn’t the Braves have to deal with their agents then?

come to think of it, I wonder what people would think if we traded Escobar for pitching now!

By Tomas

December 18, 2008 5:52 PM | Link to this

Frank Wren decision to stop doing bussines with Wasserman Media Group, seems pretty stupid, they represent a lot of players, not to mention the Braves tendency to stay away from Scott Boras.

This Wasserman Media Group list of clients:

-Aaron Boone -Alex Escobar -Alexis Rios -Aramis Ramirez -Brendan Ryan -Carlos Lee -Carmen Cali -Chase Utley -Craig Monroe -DJ Houlton -Dmitri Young -Edinson Volquez -Edwin Encarnacion -Esteban German -Eugenio Velez -Francisco Rodriguez -Francisco Rosario -Frank Thomas -Garrett Olson -Geoff Blum -Geovany Soto -Greg Aquino -Guillermo Mota -Hanley Ramirez -Hecto Carrasco -Hideki Matsui -Jason Giambi -Jason Hirsh -Jason Kendall -Jason Kubel -Jason Michaels -Joel Pineiro -John Grabow -Jose Guillen -Josh Towers -Juan Miranda -Kazuo Matsui -Kei Igawa -Kory Casto -Lou Marson -Matt Treanor -Matthew Capps -Max Ramirez -Michael Rivera -Mike Liberthal -Mike Mussina -Nomar Garciaparra -Omar Vizquel -Peter Moylan -Rafael Furcal -Ramon Ramirez -Randy Wolf -Reed Johnson -Rick VandenHurk -Roman Colon -Ryan Tucker -Sammy Sosa -Shawn Hill -Tony Blanco -Tyler Lumsden -Vincente Padilla -Wilson Betemit -Wily Mo Pena

I mean I certainly understand, and respect the fact that they need to show them they can’t do bussines like this again. But they have so many clients, and frankly I as a fan don’t care who represents him. I mean if Hanley Ramirez becomes a free agent, the braves wouldn’t have a chance of signing him. The same with Chase Utley, Edinson Volquez, Carlos Lee, Alex Rios, and Aramis Ramirez. EVER.

Also if you combined that list with Scott Boras client list, they wont ever be able to sign anyone.

By sri

December 18, 2008 5:52 PM | Link to this

DOB, Thanks for the blog. Agree with most of your sentiments, but regarding the outfield situation, going after a stopgap OF for 2 years would make sense only if both Frenchy rebounds and our CF prospects are upto the task. Is it not safer to give someone like Abreu a three year deal just in case one of the two does’nt happen, than dealing prospects for Dye.? I think the difference between Abreu and Dye is not that much defensively. Thanks once again for the blog.

By ncgary

December 18, 2008 5:55 PM | Link to this

what makes anyone not think that arn might have a deal with colletti which involves more than the 4 % that fookie pays him, to retain him, if wren really wants the free agents do some double dealing , pay the agent more than the player does for his services from miscellaneous funds . if you want the players , you have to be smarter than the game

By Dan

December 18, 2008 5:55 PM | Link to this

The Rafael Furcal thing may have a very big silver lining. Wren won’t be dealing anymore with Kinzer or Tellem; Furcal’s two agents in all of this. Tellem represents Randy Wolf. So the Braves may very well be out of the Randy Wolf thing due to his agent. Thank God!

Bad news though is that Kinzer and/or Tellem apparently represents Peter Moylan.

By Fan-coeur (Frenchy has heart)

December 18, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

“ALL WE ARE SAAAAYYYIIIING IS GIVE FRANK A CHANCE”

By Original Jon

December 18, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this

got this from J.C. Bradbury at sabernomics.com

Furcal’s agent did come back with further demands, but the terms were ones that the agent knew the Braves would reject, including a no-trade clause.

Hmm, guess there’s our answer on whether the Braves still believe in not giving them.

By Tomas

December 18, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this

Wouldn’t it be better to just avoid Kizner’s clients.

By Tomas

December 18, 2008 6:01 PM | Link to this

I think Wren needs to sign Bobby Abreu to 3yrs 36 million, also Kawakami to 3 yrs 23 million(he already has a 3yr 21 million offer from BOS), John Smoltz to a 1yr 3.5 million + incentives=5million, Greg Norton to a 1yr 1.85million, Tom Glavine to a 1yr 2million + incentives=3 million, and Will Ohman to 3 yrs 11 million= 33 million + Javier Vazques(2yrs 23million) and David Ross(2 yrs 3million)= 46 million.

They definitely have the funds(45-48 million), will Frank Wren use them?

By Don!

December 18, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this

JS = the man.

Later,

Don!

By Original Jon

December 18, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this

Tomas Also if you combined that list with Scott Boras client list, they wont ever be able to sign anyone.

I am sure they would rather deal with Boras at this juncture than WMG.

By bill

December 18, 2008 6:08 PM | Link to this

Regarding the OF discussion, I think I’d rather have Abreu as a FA signing than give up someone we’d rather keep to get Dye in a trade. The difference just isn’t that big and frankly in some respects Abreu’s numbers are better and he’s certainly more consistent.

Bobby is seeking $16.5 M / year over 3 years meaning he’ll take less it seems. The Braves could certainly afford him and a good starting pitcher, as well as Smoltz.

By Fan-coeur (Frenchy has heart)

December 18, 2008 6:12 PM | Link to this

Don’t trade Kelly, FW! Prado isn’t an everyday player. Kelly was on fire during the final months of the season. trading him away would make no sense.

By spotts

December 18, 2008 6:12 PM | Link to this

Wait….if Burnett was so concerned about his wife travelling, why the heck did he sign with Toronto earlier?

By Nate in Maine

December 18, 2008 6:14 PM | Link to this

Ramblin Wrecker Man I agree with you. Lets restart the building process. I am sick of the players that come here for a year or two then leave. Its like they “chew and screw”. I am excited about the braves with this young group of players. To be honest I want to see a team that is young and willing to do whatever to win. Save that money for next year and try to sign some of those players. Lets face it this free agent class was weak to being with and the Yankees over paid for Burnett who had a good season last year but before that he was pulling the mike Hampton. I just want the braves to stop this Tex type stuff and start to look to the future.

By Jim Hertel

December 18, 2008 6:14 PM | Link to this

Let’s move on Braves’ fans and quit acting like we are victims here. Let’s act like winners and help to instill a winning attitude around this team. This team has a lot of positives, and all of them are not two or three years away.

That being said, I do wish that Wren would at least kick the tires on Milton Bradley. Bobby Cox has gotten along with “problem children” before. Bradley could be a better and cheaper investment than Dye. When it comes to Lowe, I’d be happy to see him in a Braves uniform, but I think Sheets might be our best option. Just a gut feeling.

By Chop Chop

December 18, 2008 6:15 PM | Link to this

Schuerholz and Wren:

“WAAAAAAH!”

The Braves got played because the Braves aren’t the big boys anymore. I hate to type it, but it’s the truth.

By Original Jon

December 18, 2008 6:16 PM | Link to this

Tomas Thats just it, Kinzer works for WMG and those are the clients they represent, which would be Kinzer’s clients

By That's Mr. Gil to You

December 18, 2008 6:16 PM | Link to this

Cow races… Who’d have thunk it????

By JasonInFL (formerly ME)

December 18, 2008 6:16 PM | Link to this

Ok, so, where is this deal that FW had a framework in place for…he said they just needed to agree on players. I mean, it must be getting the time to try and pull the trigger on something…other than something pointed at Kin…oh, nevermind…

By AdirondackDave

December 18, 2008 6:17 PM | Link to this

Excellent blog, DOB. JS is absolutely right in being outraged by this unprofessional behavior by Kinzer and/or Tellum. My guess, though, is that time heals all wounds and after a heartfelt, “mea culpa” they will be off the Braves shi! list.

By TennesseePaul

December 18, 2008 6:17 PM | Link to this

DOB: How does JS’s stance and the Braves new stance on Wasserman Media Group, impact Peter Moylan, their mutual client?

By ernesto

December 18, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this

Don!

Take care now, ernesto

By im4ball

December 18, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this

It is time to stop recycling players and start developing from within. Take our lumps for a year or so and develop a quality, young team.

That said, renting a player for a year or so is probably ok if you need them for a given position.

I would not sign any pitcher who remotely might have issues with injuries… (sheets). I might sign Smoltz to a contract for less money but only because he is a fan favorite and you know he will give you 110% for as long as he can. However, it should be noted that no matter what happens with signing Smoltz, he is not going to be able to give you a lot of innings again. He is just too old and has had too many surgeries. The best thing for Smoltz is to be a 5th starter.

As for Tom Glavin, the last time he pitched for the Braves, his fastball was clocked at 83 Mph. Even for someone who never threw that hard in the first place, that is slow. I suspect that if he does recover from surgery, he will not be able to throw hard enough to be a major league starter again. I figure the Braves will offer Glavine a minor league contract and see if he can pitch his way onto the team.

There is a general thought in baseball which says “you can hid someone in the field but you can’t hide them at the plate”. Point is that it is better to have an average fielder who can hit than a great fielder who can’t.

I would draft or trade for the best young hitters I could and develope a team around them. As much as I like pitching (I have a son who pitches in college and another in high school) I think hiting today is out doing pitching and as such, if you have a great hitting team, you only need starters who give up 4 runs or less in a game.

By Kelly's Big Johnson

December 18, 2008 6:34 PM | Link to this

Note to blog from Kelly’s Big Johnson

Paul Kinzer and Arn Tellum both deserve to be thumped in the head by Kelly’s Big Johnson.

By brent a.

December 18, 2008 6:38 PM | Link to this

Wouldn’t it be better to just avoid Kizner’s clients.

Maybe JS wants Kinzer fired.

By Drew

December 18, 2008 6:41 PM | Link to this

Rebuild.

By ernesto

December 18, 2008 6:42 PM | Link to this

In baseball, it doesn’t really matter if you get beat 1-0 or 39-0. An L is an L.

So I propose the Braves sign me to a 1 year league minimum deal.

I go out, get shelled, wear out the ohter team’s batters and we win the next two.

You can give Chiipper and McCann night’s off on my guaranteed butt-kicking nights, and rest the pen too. I mean no use saving me, I’m not good.

It’s a daring, bold move. But one that makes financial sense and is just crazy enough to work.

And, I’m not represented by Kinzer.

By Steve from OH

December 18, 2008 6:46 PM | Link to this

nolie, I read that. That’s just bad timing lol.

By Original Jon

December 18, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this

Hey Chop CHop Imagine it like this, you have your eye on a nice shiny, mint condition, slightly used car of your choice, and you think to yourself, wow, i would love to have that car, so for weeks and weeks you talk to the owner of the car and he agrees to sell it to you for 4,000 dollars less that what he was originally asking and tells you the car is all yours, you say “great, glad we worked that out, lets meet tomorrow to switch the car into my name”

now, think of that excitement you would have knowing you were about to have a car in mint condition really cheap, you couldnt sleep because the car was so nice. But then you feel crushed because the owner calls you the next day and says, I am going to sell the car to another person at the original price, plus 2,000 more, can you match it?

Thats how they feel. Mad and bothered, just like you would if that happened to you.

Now, thats not to say that we cant go out and buy another car cause we still have the money to do so, but probably not one as nice as the one you had your heart set on.

By Robbie T

December 18, 2008 6:49 PM | Link to this

No need to worry about Moylan or Escobar.They won’t be here long enough to worry about money dealing with agents.”See David Justice and Bob Wickman among others”.

By hubris

December 18, 2008 6:49 PM | Link to this

I just heard the Frank Wren interview earlier in the day on 790 and from DOB’s comments about FW not really eager to talk about any new moves, I think we’ll probably be back to the days of secrecy, like the JS era.

I think FW when he became the GM made a conscientious decision to be more media-friendly than JS. After all we always heard journalists complaining about the tight-lipped JS front office, and maybe he figured that by being more media-friendly (i.e., letting some leaks) or publicly stating some goals would do that. Of course, now FW has realized what he needs to do.

I’m not a blind FW supporter, but I think I did appreciate his frankness (no pun intended) towards media more interesting; however, if these actions make the fan base expect too much or becomes tool for which other agents can use to shop the offers to others, then probably the JS way is probably the right method.

Here’s to hoping FW learned his lessons and can be an effective GM.

By hubris

December 18, 2008 6:53 PM | Link to this

As for the “cutting-off” of Tellum et al., probably not the most practical decision they could have made, but sometimes a man needs to show that he ain’t just gonna be pushed around by every tom, dick, and harry. This offseason has definitely given FW a reputation as weak or push-over or something in the eyes of the agents and other GMs and if this is the necessary evil to show that he still has the cahones, then it’d be worth it.

By eric in albany

December 18, 2008 6:54 PM | Link to this

just listining to “Home Plate” On Sirius XM channel 210 not too long ago. they started talking about the braves and how they felt they were Scammed by the wasserman group, (before schuerholz comments were made public by the AJC) The Host was not willing to choose sides. they wanted to hear both sides.

about 5 min later They read Johns Comments On The AJC and jumped right on the braves presidents side. they showed him a lot of respect and were actually shocked that the former GM was so mad. They thought it was a big deal for him to act like this.

they were saying that a respected guy like schuerholz saying the braves would no longer do business with these guys could make a lot of teams think twice about trusting these guys and could put them out of business

up here in NY i dont hear a lot of respect from the media for our boys in the atl. it was great to hear someone respect Schuerholz and our team so much.

DOB what do you think?

By calledstrikethree

December 18, 2008 6:54 PM | Link to this

Jeff and Kelly for an upper tier pitcher? Is there another Jeff I don’t know about on the Braves’ roster?
Jeff is nowhere near good enough to be paired with another average-at-best player to bring a top tier pitcher in return. Kelly, highly regarded in the organization for his hitting POTENTIAL has yet to become anything more than a streaky hitting, error prone second baseman. I’m all for trading players to get a top notch SP, but you have to give quality to get quality. Jeff and Kelly, I’m sorry to say, aren’t it.

By some sense

December 18, 2008 6:55 PM | Link to this

Dave…Dave?…DAVE!

Back Stabbers? What about Useta Be My Girl…at worst the third best R&B song ever…Let’s Get It On, Try a Little Tenderness…wait a minute…Love Land.

By Hiawatha Terrell Wade

December 18, 2008 6:59 PM | Link to this

A cow race. Wow you are Southern. I’ve never heard of such a thing. Sounds like fun!

By mr baseball

December 18, 2008 7:02 PM | Link to this

Dye would be a good fit as a righty, power-hitting OF, but exactly what would it take to get him from the White Sox. Unless the Braves have a deal pending with Orlando Cabrera or with the Brewers for J.J. Hardy, trading Yunel is out. Then what?

If the White Sox are looking for MLB ready youngsters, either Reyes or Morton, maybe Acosta, maybe Schafer. They need a 2B/SS, a CF and pitching. Maybe the Braves can package something without Yunel, but it’s difficult to imagine unless they’re willing to part with at least 1 or 2 of their better (not best) prospects.

Abreu doesn’t fit in as well, but all he would cost is money. His numbers have remained steady, although his walks dropped the last 2 years. Might be worth a 2 or 3-year deal, but Cox would have to get creative with the lineup (not a promising thought) & Chipper might have to hit cleanup to make things work out.

Abreu hit .315 against lefties last season, so that offsets the concerns about the team having too many LH bats. He also can still run some and his defensive deficiencies are not that severe.

From a radio interview today I heard the tail end of, Braves apparently don’t want to sign anyone long term to “block” Heyward, but 2 or 3 years is not long term and lots of things can change in a short period of time.

At any rate, the Braves need 1 more bat in the order in addition to another starter, who may be harder to come by. I still like the Mariners’ Bedard, but he only has 1 more year before free agency and may not be worth what it would cost to get him.

At this stage, things are not looking that good for next year, but are the Braves’ chances any worse than the ‘08 Rays or ‘07 Rockies?

By Kelly's Big Johnson

December 18, 2008 7:03 PM | Link to this

Note to blog from Kelly’s Big Johnson

Here’s one to the Braves for circumcising the Wasserman group. From my personal experience, that hurts.

Hey, I heard that the agency actually got their name from Raffy. He was working a deal long into the night with Paul Kinzer, and, all of a sudden, Furcal jumps up and says “Paul, Wasserman doin under yo desk!”

It was pretty embarrassing for Paul when Arn crawled out from under there and said “Don’t Tellum!”

Ok, I’m done.

By Chop Chop

December 18, 2008 7:05 PM | Link to this

I understand, Original Jon.

I just don’t think people running sports teams should let their emotions get away from ‘em. No matter how much we fans want to say “Right on!” when our front office folks rip players or agents, the fact is that we aren’t running the teams. The guys running the teams are supposed to be sober and thoughtful (hell, even cunning) enough not to shoot from the hip. As some have pointed out, Peter Moylan is represented by these guys. If the Braves deal with Moylan’s agency, they look like hypocrites. If they don’t deal with Moylan’s agency, they look like they’re still crying over spilled milk. From an organizational standpoint, it’s basically a lose-lose proposition to go public and air dirty laundry.

Besides, haven’t the Braves been known for the exemplary way in which they’ve handled tough negotiations? This offseason, no matter how much bad luck, big money, a dysfunctional GM or treacherous agents have factored in, has tarnished that reputation.

By Bravosimos

December 18, 2008 7:08 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Or anyone,

Is Escobar rep’d by Wasserman? And if he is, do you think Wren would ask him to change agencies, same with Moylan?

By Original Jon

December 18, 2008 7:16 PM | Link to this

hubris This offseason has definitely given FW a reputation as weak or push-over

How in the heck do you figure? Please elaborate on that has happened exactly.

So he was a push over because he didnt want to meet Towers demands for Peavy by depleting the farm system and so he decides to walk away from the table? NO, that makes him less of a push over because he didnt give in to what Towers wanted

So he was weak for not outbidding the Yankees for an oft injured starting pitcher? WRONG If anything, it showed he had the, as you so lightly put it, cahones to even bid as high as he did for someone like Burnett.

The Furcal deal was an unethical and immorally wrong deal on the side of the Agents, not Wren.

So please, explain again how Wren is looking weak or like a push over, I would love to hear it. Seriously I would.

By propp

December 18, 2008 7:17 PM | Link to this

i highly doubt the braves would change agencies, but I am sure they would know that they would need to change agencies if they wanted to continue with the Braves

By JP

December 18, 2008 7:19 PM | Link to this

Dave,

Do you like Ryan Bingham? Good stuff. I would hate to be on Schuerholz’s crap list

By Kelly's Big Johnson

December 18, 2008 7:19 PM | Link to this

Note to blog from Kelly’s Big Johnson

On a serious note, here is a fact:

The Braves don’t have to deal with the agency.

Jimmy Sexton, the infamous college football coach agent, is hated by almost all the SEC schools. I’ve heard that it is not uncommon now for schools to deal directly with the coach instead of Jimmy… he just basically signs off on everything for the coach.

I’m pretty sure this happened with the Gene Chizik hire at Auburn.

Look at Andruw and Scott Boras a few years back. They could theoretically deal with a player covered by Wasserman and never talk to the agents or deal with the agency.

By NCBravesFan

December 18, 2008 7:20 PM | Link to this

Couple of things - it’s really remarkable that Schuerholz came out swinging so boldly today. It’s so out of character for this organization, and it sounds like he was determined to take a stand on behalf of both the organization - and Frank Wren, who’s taken his lumps the last few weeks!

Secondly, I wonder if the Braves have given thought to their succession plan in the dugout? I think it’s past time to get some clarity one way or the other. Either Bobby’s here in 2009 and gone, or he’s here for another 2-3 on a signed deal.

If 2009 is it for BC, the Braves might have done themselves a few favors by naming a successor before the free agent season opened.

BC should be given all deference in my book, but at the same time, no one man is bigger than the organization’s needs.

By Original Jon

December 18, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this

Chop Chop You liked that analogy didnt you? lol. But think about this for a second, what if having JS, a guy respected in all circles of the baseball world, what if having him telling Arn Tellem that he wasnt going to do business with him ever again gets their clients thinking, “Hey, you know what, these guys are sneakier than I thought, what if they are somehow screwing us over on our contracts to get them more money” Then their clients might start looking for different agents.

All I know is that if Peter Moylan is appreciative enough that the Braves brought him over here from Australia and they are willing to give him a long term contract but they dont want to deal with his agents, then all he has to do is say yes, sign on the dotted line himself, or heck, even find new agents so the Braves can get a deal done.

By Wayne in Utah

December 18, 2008 7:29 PM | Link to this

Chop There does come a time when a business must be willing to stand up for something more important than a relief pitcher or some other player they might covet.

When I am treated like the Braves were, I never go back, unless the offending party is fired from the other organization, and an apology is offered. I expect nothing less from the Braves concerning the Wasserman Group.

WTG Braves, John Schuerholz and Frank Wren!

Sounds like to me if Peter Moylan likes playing with the Braves, he might want to consider different representation.

By NCBravesFan

December 18, 2008 7:31 PM | Link to this

Chop Chop - I think the anger was appropriate and in the organization’s best interests - even though I still lay most of the blame at Furcal’s feet. The agents work for him, not the other way around.

But if the term sheet is understood by both sides to be the “agreement in principle” and not to be shopped around once tendered, it is both right and appropriate for the Braves organization to call the agency out.

By ncscoots

December 18, 2008 7:33 PM | Link to this

I just don’t think people running sports teams should let their emotions get away from ‘em.

Perhaps. But what makes you think Schuerholz’s emotions produced his statement? Has that guy ever made a public move without deliberation? Does he seem the type to you to run his mouth without considering every ramification of doing so?

I believe he felt a stand had to be taken to remind the baseball world that, 90-loss season or no, barbarians at the gate or no, this is still the Atlanta Braves. Some of our less astute bloggers may think that reputation is in tatters, but I doubt that. And I’m betting Schuerholz didn’t much like the idea of someone besides bloggers not respecting that rep.

You mess with a chained-up dog, best remember the chain might be longer than you think. Otherwise, you can end up with an azz-chewing.

By f.n. hale

December 18, 2008 7:34 PM | Link to this

Tomas

I agree that refusing to negotiate with Kinzer would have been a better option, but dang, don’t you like seeing JS having Wren’s back on this. Hopefully they’ll find a way to back out of the hard stance though, otherwise it will be a real problem down the road. Even though our guys aren’t an issue in the near future, someone will be at some point. Maybe if Tellem fired Kinzer they could gracefully recant.

I’m a real estate broker and it has always been a no no to shop an offer. Yes it is done, more so in the last few years when a lot of new agents came into the biz, but it stinks in any type of business and shows a definite lack of character. Furcal’s agent owes him the best deal he can get him and isn’t doing his job otherwise, but in the long run it makes his client look bad. I have no problem with his agent making proposals without a commitment and taking that to other potential buyers, but if this went down the way reported, Kinzer should be fired because he not only made himself and his client look bad, but his employer as well.

DOB

I know we in the real estate business are held in lower esteem than even mortgage brokers, but as in any business (excepting maybe politicians and lobbyists) there are good and bad people and those of us committed to doing things the right way are stained by those that don’t. I never wanted to be the old guy complaining about how this younger generation just didn’t have the morals we did back in the day, but sometimes it seems that way.

Ron Roberts

re: your 4:50, I agree the Royals and Pirates may be as close to contending as the Braves at this point, but neither seems to have made the commitment to contending immediately that the Braves have and may deem trading one good player for several probably (or possibly) good ones to be a better route to success. It probably is a better route for the Pirates since they will let them go when they get good and expensive anyway.

By Original Jon

December 18, 2008 7:37 PM | Link to this

Wonder if Casey Wasserman will give a formal apology or not.

By OHIOBRAVESFAN

December 18, 2008 7:42 PM | Link to this

NCBravesFan

I totally agree about Bobby Cox. I am a big fan of his and want him to stay a long time (provided we have solid starters who give us innings so he doesn’t abuse the bullpen), BUT…

I can’t help but wonder if Fookie and AJ, who both respect Bobby, might have leaned more heavily toward Atlanta if they knew Bobby was signed for 3 years or so.

If Bobby isn’t staying beyond this year, then a successor should be named and made bench coach so free agents will know who’ll they’ll be playing for in Atlanta.

By h_charles

December 18, 2008 7:46 PM | Link to this

Don’t know why nobody mentions Abreu. He is no glamour guy, but the guy puts up numbers every year. More importatly, he gives this team what it MOST sorely lacks — plate discipline.
The guy works counts better than anyone, and gosh do we need that.Plus, he runs pretty well, plays good D, never misses a game. He adds a presence lost since Renteria left.

Don’t know why we are so down on Dunn either. The guys does nothing but hit homers and draw walks. Want power? He’s as good as they get, and would be nice protection between Chipper and Mac. He does K, but we haven’t had a power guy like that in quite a while.

As for blocking stars, that is a good problem to have. First, nobody knows who will bust and who won’t. Our track record developing superstars recently isn’t so stellar. Who knows if any of our future stars will be worth moving a Dunn in a year or two? Everyone fretted about losing Salty, and so far that hasn’t hurt a bit.

By Original Jon

December 18, 2008 7:46 PM | Link to this

AHAHAHAHAHAH A little off subject, but I just read this line off braves.scout.com and thought it was absolutely hilarious.

Here’s your chance to get hitting instruction from Chipper Jones and Jeff Francoeur!

Who in their right mind would pay to get hitting lessons from Jeff Francoeur???? LMAO!!!!

By SeaAtl

December 18, 2008 7:48 PM | Link to this

MAN, I just read the article regarding JS’s comments on the Furcal situation and I loved it! He didn’t hold back on that agent, and that is awesome!

By ernesto

December 18, 2008 7:49 PM | Link to this

There really isn’t any room for Wren bashing.

He didn’t get screwed in the Peavy deal.

He had a very aggressive bid on Burnett and lost out due to a periphiral reason.

He handled himself like a professional with Fookie, the other side didn’t.

He hasn’t gone throwing non-sensical offers around just to be “doing something”

Most important, he’s protecting the future by not dealing away big talent that’s a few years away for a quick fix today. (how many of you have been wringing your hands over the JD Drew, Tex, etc talent siphoning deals?)

I give Wren props. And JS props for standing up for him.

By Kris in NC

December 18, 2008 7:50 PM | Link to this

I believe someone said that the players union would probably file a grievance against the Braves for their comments, well maybe someone should check into what went down between Furcal’s agent and the Dodgers.

Last time I knew, the 1st Amendment granted us the Freedom of Speech and JS and FW said what needed to be said. What Arm Tellum’s agency did, whether it was Arm or any of his agents did was wrong and to sit there and take the term sheet and use to for the same deal from the Dodgers is shady to say the least.

Arm better investigate his own agent, Paul Kinzer over this mess because it is blowing up in his face. JS has been in this business along time and is pretty well respect. Going public with what JS said today was a smart move.

Kudos to JS and FW. Everyone needs to stop the whining that FW hasn’t spent the money he has, at least isn’t spending it foolishly. When he finds the right guys, he will make sure it is spend the right way.

You can bet whoever does business with the Braves now, knows you better do it the right way that includes Scott Boras. :)

By Tennessee Williams

December 18, 2008 7:55 PM | Link to this

I’ve got myself a funny feeling that either Kinser or Tellum are married to a woman named Stella ‘cause the Braves have sadly become Blanche Dubois from A Streetcar Named Desire. While being led away to the looney bin after being raped, the delusional fading Southern belles can only say we’ve “always depended on the kindness of strangers.”

By nolie

December 18, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this

I posted this earlier for SteveOhio and Efrim but only a little bit came through. I’ll try again.

ON FRANK WREN J.C Bradbury Sabernomics.com

With the collapse of the Furcal-to-Atlanta deal, Frank Wren has been getting a lot of criticism. Im not sure its warranted, but I think now is a good time to pass along a few thoughts related to the Braves GM.

* I heard Frank Wren on the the radio this morning (790 The Zone podcast), and hes not happy about the Furcal situation. He stated a few important points that I want to pass along.
      o Furcals agent left a voice mail asking for a term sheet and stated were good. Wren emphasized that were good was a direct quote, and that in a business where face-to-face meetings are rare this constitutes a done deal.
      o He stated that he had talked to Furcal about moving to second base, and Furcal indicated that he was fine with the move.
      o Furcals agent did come back with further demands, but the terms were ones that the agent knew the Braves would reject, including a no-trade clause.
* Frank Wren is a good interview. He is nothing like his predecessor in this area. He responds in detail to questions, giving more than the minimum. Hes emotional, but conveys rational thoughts even when expressing emotions. John Schuerholz always sounded to me like he had other things to do and was annoyed by questions.
* Im not sure you can say that Wren has performed differently from Schuerholz. My impression is that the Braves front office is a brain trust that still includes Schuerholz. When Wren was an assistant GM, he probably had a lot more power than most GMs. As a GM, I think that he has a little less power relative to other GMs. That doesnt mean that Wren isnt the leader, but I think the transition from Schuerholz to Wren hasnt changed much about the organization. I recall that Schuerholz had considerable trouble working with agents.
* Recently, I referred to Frank Wren as a stat-head. The stat-head designation was meant to be humorous, and I did not mean for it to be taken seriously. Since that post, I have seen several references to Wren being stat-savvy, and I think my post is partially responsible. I want to clear this up. I am sure that the Braves use statistical methods to help evaluate talent just as all ballclubs do. There is no organization that eschews quantitative analysis; however, some are more partial to stats than others. The information I have about Wren is that he is not a stat-focused decision-maker. From speaking with several sources regarding Wren, my impression is that Wren is somewhat hostile to quantitative analysis. Just because Wren used some DIPSish reasoning to defend a pitcher doesnt mean that type of analysis is driving the organization. My guess is that ocular scouting played a larger role in evaluating Javier Vazquez than quantitative analysis.

By SeaAtl

December 18, 2008 7:58 PM | Link to this

Did somebody here really say the players union would file a grievance on JS for his comments. Maybe the most idiotic lie I’ve heard in a while - a day at least. No basis for it and nobody is planning to do that. Not gonna happen.

By car3boogie

December 18, 2008 8:00 PM | Link to this

DOB you have handled this well. Ridiculous is the word for the Furcal scenario.

What will now happen with Moyland?

By car3boogie

December 18, 2008 8:02 PM | Link to this

I need a good Cigar for a gift for my sons HS Coach for a gift any help will do, he loves a victory Smoke

By Iron Labrum

December 18, 2008 8:02 PM | Link to this

Dave….the guys who write the headlines are great…Schuerholz Vows Payback….sounds like a movie to me this time its personal …The funniest thing is, the longer an article stays up, the more outlandish the headline gets.

By Kelly's Big Johnson

December 18, 2008 8:07 PM | Link to this

Note to DOB from Kelly’s Big Johnson

DOB:

Is this your sister?

By Don

December 18, 2008 8:09 PM | Link to this

Love the stance from JS and Wren. More clubs need to take such attitudes when agents do disreputable things and then those agents would no longer be around.

I particularly love how JS backed up Wren. I do not blame Wren for the Furcal debacle at all.

The off season is still short. Let’s not get crazed. PLEASE do not trade away a lot of our young talent unless it is for young talent from another organization in positions that we need in exchange for some of our prospects that play positions that the Braves have depth in.

By Joe M.

December 18, 2008 8:10 PM | Link to this

DOB,

When Scott Boras betrayed the White Sox on an agreement to sign Omar Visquel before the 2005 season, they (the White Sox) swore off Boras (and have stuck to it) and even convinced John Danks to switch agents (he was their only Boras client.)

Could the Braves do the same with Peter Moylan?

By McFann O –[zzz]

December 18, 2008 8:19 PM | Link to this

10Paul Heyward and Hanson might be the most talented homegrown prospects in the Braves’ system since Andruw Jones

How does that make you feel McFann?

He said “might be”…“might be”.

By David O'Brien

December 18, 2008 8:23 PM | Link to this

Here’s the statement I got e-mailed to me tonight from Arn Tellem:

With regard to the negotiations between the Atlanta Braves and Rafael Furcal, the essential facts are clear and cannot be disputed.

1. There was never an agreement reached between Rafael Furcal and the Atlanta Braves.

2. In fact, the Braves were fully aware that Furcal was not prepared to make a decision but had requested an opportunity to sleep on it, before deciding.

3. Moreover, the Baseball rules which all agents and teams operate under are clear that no deal exists between a player and a team unless and until: (i) there is a signed and executed player agreement or; (ii) the Player’s Union and the Commissioner’s office have otherwise confirmed the deal. Neither occurred here.

4. Furcal ultimately decided to accept the Dodgers’ offer, taking into consideration a number of factors the most important of which was his desire to continue playing short-stop and not make the position change to second base that the Braves were requiring.

   1. Losing out on an all-star player like Furcal is always disappointing, and we understand the Braves’ frustration with the outcome of this negotiation, but it does not change in any way the fact that we conducted ourselves with integrity and complied with all rules of major league baseball throughout this process.

   2. Our primary obligation is to serve our clients best interests, and we will continue to do so in accordance with all relevant rules governing MLB negotiations and the utmost integrity.

   3. If it serves our clients we will continue to present opportunities to the Braves, which in accordance with the rules governing Major League Baseball, the Braves must entertain. We hope that once emotions have subsided, the Braves will act in a manner consistent with not only their obligations under the Collective Bargaining Agreement and The National Labor Relations Act, but also the best interests of the franchise. In short, we would not want this incident to color their better judgment.

By eric in albany

December 18, 2008 8:26 PM | Link to this

Did Anyone Read The Statement From The Agent Group? Ill Find It And See If I Can Post It. Its Laughable!

They Are S*Bags!

Its Such A BS Statement

By David O'Brien

December 18, 2008 8:27 PM | Link to this

Kelly’s B. Johnson:

No, not my sister. Not related. But she’s a very cool girl and a really good reporters/baseball writer. Worked in Texas a long time, went to New York a year ago.

By eric in albany

December 18, 2008 8:27 PM | Link to this

Thanks DOB You Beat Me To It!

By David O'Brien

December 18, 2008 8:28 PM | Link to this

By the way, all of Tellem’s points were numbered, but the numbers didn’t show up when I posted for whatever reason.

By Don

December 18, 2008 8:29 PM | Link to this

BTW, how can anyone say that Wren is doing a bad job? Look at the trades that he has made. The only questionable one is the Kotsay for Devine trade and given the status of the Braves at the time (they thought that they were a world series caliber team and just needed a short term fix in cf) I could not blame Wren for that trade at all. The other trades have been very good.

I do not blame him for the Peavy mess or the Furcal mess. And I am glad that he had the sense not to overpay for Burnett (I believe that even at the level the Braves bid for Burnett it was overpaying).

He also is reluctant to trade away young home grown talent. I like that. Yes, a prospect is called that because he has not done anything yet and might not ever pan out but the current group sure does look promising.

By Eric in San Jose

December 18, 2008 8:29 PM | Link to this

2 important facts:

Sheets was offered arbitration by the Brewers, and he would likely command 10 mil+ in arbitration.

It is likely his agent will emulate Boras from 2003 with Maddux, remember that clown accepting arbitration from the Braves and milking them for 14 mil for 1 year?

Maddux was indeed quite greedy, first in his agent choice and in working the Braves in a way that forced them to trade Millwood for the immortal catcher Estrada.

I predict Sheets accepts arbitration and Lowe ends up back in Boston. Since he is a Boras client and the Braves have a long history of disdain for him, I don’t see Lowe as a Brave.

Trades make more sense. The Giants were shopping Sanchez, that would be a good start to inquire.

What about Erik Beddard? Seattle is foundering and he is an absolute horse.

The danger is in what the Braves have to give up in order to get him or any quality 1 or 2 starter.

By Dadgum

December 18, 2008 8:32 PM | Link to this

Do we have any current Braves players represented by Tellum/Kinzer? If so the Braves have put those players on notice. If I was that player I would immediately fire the SOB’s on the spot. Can I be any more clearer? If not they will have tough sledding ahead both in fan acceptance and negotiations. If there are any Braves players reading this do yourself a favor and fire any such agents…immediately!

DOB….we do not need a Jermaine Dye. Don’t care about the stats. The HR’s. Youth now must be served. I will take KJ in LF and his overall game there over Dye every day. KJ will hit maybe 12 less home runs but every bit as good at OPS not to mention defense. I certainly don’t trade for a Jermaine Dye and would only pick him up for insurance on the cheap.

Not that I don’t like him. Not it at all. I just don’t see where you are upgrading your team by putting Dye in left and keeping KJ at 2nd. Put KJ in left and Prado at 2nd and you have a better defense plus they will be on base more.

The Braves need pitching period. Forget about another power bat. If you really want to know the truth I would put another power bat in RF and keep KJ in LF.

My two cents.

Rock on…….Tellum spelled backwards is Mullet. Duh huh!!

By DrHoo

December 18, 2008 8:34 PM | Link to this

I think the statement by Tellam answers the question of whether the agent is a scumbag and the Braves should just avoid him, or is the whole agency rotten and was JS correct to put the blame at the top. It’ll be interesting to see if other GMs take note and are more cautious dealing with players represented by this dishonest agency.

By DAP01

December 18, 2008 8:34 PM | Link to this

Boooo Furcal like crazy if he is healthy enough to play whey LA visits ATL.

He has NO character. His agent has no character.

JS was right to cut them off.

By Smack Kinzer

December 18, 2008 8:34 PM | Link to this

Looked Kinzer’s pic up on Google. Just wanted to see what a slimy, weasel faced, a-hole looked like. I wasn’t disappointed. He has the face that just looks like it needs a good smack!

Screw Wasserman and their clients.

The two silver linings to this cloud is No Furcal and now No Randy Wolf! Yeah!

By Dadgum

December 18, 2008 8:38 PM | Link to this

Sorry I had the wrong Tellem spelling in prior post.

Regarding Tellem’s rebuttal…Th eBraves and every team in baseball knows the rules. Pure and simple the Braves were punked. Shopped. No not illegal but the good-ole-boy framework that exists in these matters will prevail. Somewhere. Somehow. Down the road. Later.

Rock on…

By Bravosimos

December 18, 2008 8:38 PM | Link to this

Sounds to me you have to read between the lines. Tellem says there was no official documentation regarding the deal. But, as DOB and Wren have stated, asking for the “Terms Sheet” indicates a done deal(as all GM’s will agree[correct DOB?]). If it smells like BS and sounds like BS, then it night just be. I am a man of principle as well as having (maybe too much) pride, so fault me if I agree and respect Mr.Wren!

By bravesfan54

December 18, 2008 8:41 PM | Link to this

Last night I was critical of FW - essentially called him a GM failure. This was perhaps too harsh. He hasn’t delivered, and is 0-3 at best (he pitch count on Smoltz is 0-2!)- having said that, he has a right to be pizzed at his treatment by that agency. There won’t be any MLB grievance (see “elephant in the room”), and time will heal these wounds. The agency will survive, the agents are toast.

Count me among those who are perfectly willing to wait until 2010 for the new Braves’ era - the post-Cox, post “run” years, becken us. Were talkin’ baseball time and its rhythms. The gods have told to keep our powder dry. So be it.

By Mike S

December 18, 2008 8:41 PM | Link to this

Haha, DOB here’s your girl. A little too much Botox for my tastes…

And remember, smoking is…not allowed…on this or any other Delta flight.

By Efrim

December 18, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this

DOB

I see no mention of a term sheet there. I’m guessing Tellem wouldn’t want to get into that part of it. I think it’s a bunch of crap. Not too upset that Furcal isn’t on our team, just more upset about the way it happened. I feel bad for Wren and JS. I am really glad that both of them stuck up for the organization with the comments they made today.

By Bravo!

December 18, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this

Even a slime like Tellum must understand that the Braves will legally entertain all offers as obligated by the CBA. But he’ll walk away with one of those offers that goes like this: Hey, we’ll give Raffy a 3 Year offer worth approximately, oh, let’s say about 30 cents. For three years. How’s that sound Arnie? The shmoe forgot to include in his bullet points exactly how much money he made on good ol’ Raffy. Let’s be real, Furcal can likely make much more on endorsements in LA than he could here, which in turn makes ol’ Arnie more money. And why is it that the one’s who live an integrous life never have to broadcast it, but the liars and cheats always thump their chests and preach intergrity? Go away, and take all your clients with you. Raffy, you were better than that.

By Austin

December 18, 2008 8:46 PM | Link to this

Kelly’s Big Johnson*

You have made the terrible offseason much, much better with your hilarious posts these past couple of days.

By Efrim

December 18, 2008 8:48 PM | Link to this

nolie

Sigh. I read it. I’m not a “stat-head” myself. Not sure what I am. I just think looking at statistical analysis as well as scouting(like the Red Sox do) is the way to go. Taking it all into account. Using one of them like 90%-10% is wrong. At least it is to me. But that’s my opinion. That is the way I look at things.

By Novice Ned

December 18, 2008 8:50 PM | Link to this

DOB, has Wren ever said that he had a done deal? No. He did say that a term sheet is only requested by an agent when the terms have been decided and a signed deal is imminent. I notice that Tellum, nor anyone else, has disputed the “fore play” associated with the term sheet. They seemingly left Wren in the bed with a splintered maple bat… of course Wren would be unsatisfied and left with a sticky mess on his hands.

Again, we continue to limit our options. We have essentially removed Tellum’s clients and Boras’ clients from our pool of available players. And that’s supposed to allow us to be more competitive?

By Joe M.

December 18, 2008 8:53 PM | Link to this

“If it serves our clients we will continue to present opportunities to the Braves, which in accordance with the rules governing Major League Baseball, the Braves must entertain.”

What kind of BS is that? Anything Wasserman Media Group “presents” to the Braves should be met with a dial tone from the Braves’ end.

By spotts

December 18, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this

Just read Tellem’s reasoning.

Welp, that answers that!

By SeaAtl

December 18, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this

The agents memo sure comes across pretty condescending…..

By Dadgum

December 18, 2008 8:57 PM | Link to this

My son’s band, Edison Rowe, played at Have A Nice Day Cafe in Shockoe Slip area of Richmond this weekend. Just for something different you may want to check it out. Sound from the small amps isn’t great but they write their own stuff. Not bad for 17-18 year olds. Curious what you think.(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAmLm4sYhyQ)

Rock on….wish their Curtis Mayfield cover was up.

By bravesfan54

December 18, 2008 8:57 PM | Link to this

Overpaying is generally very, very bad business. Think about it: “this guy’s not worth 10M, but we’ve gotta pay it!” (No you don’t!)

You can assess risk: “John Smoltz - if healthy and able to make 30 starts - is worth 9M, given his age, we’ve looked at his rehab, reviewed his med records- and while nothin’ in life is certain - yeah, we’ll sign for that!” That’s not overpaying, that’s risk assessment, and a horse of a different color.

By Braves28

December 18, 2008 8:59 PM | Link to this

Arn Tellem and kinzer are * garbage and I love the fact that john called tellem and strait up told him how it was and that the braves would no longer be doing buisness with them anymore which I agree with. Its really sickening that tellem is still trying to say that he and kinzer did nothing wrong. They did nothing wrong but yet they said a term sheet to wren, wren then signs it and faxes it back, then kinzer takes it and shops it to the dodgers to get more money from them, now that is some downright dirty s** on furcals agents part and furcal has to be part of the blame also because he did nothing but lie to wren when he said he was excited about comming back to the braves and about playin second base. Pretty much what furcal and his agents did was play the braves like fools just to get a lil more cash from the dodgers. I usally dont say things like this but I really hope furcal has nothing but bad years in dodger land for the next threee years, hopefully his back goes out and he spends most of the time on the disabled list and again I wouldnt normally think of such negative things about someone but what furcal and his agents did was just really ** up. I cant wait to see the day we play the dodgers and furcal comes up to bat and I hope smoltz is picting so he can beam his a* with a 95 mph fast ball, its gonna be great. I dont agree with all the idiots thats are comming on here and talking trash about frank wren, he has done a pretty damn good job by not over paying for a injury prone pitcher named burnett, not givin up our farm system for a pitcher who has tommy john surgery written all over him and he may not realize it yet but its good we didnt get furcal cause the guy is gonna be on the dl alot, so for all the people comming on here to bash wren just keep your mouths shut because you dont know what your talking about. Just because we havnt gotten anybody yet, well cept for javier , doesnt mean wren has done a bad job because I think hes done a good job so far. Well all need to sit back and be patient and give wren some time

By brian

December 18, 2008 8:59 PM | Link to this

Tellem can list out all the rules and technicalities he wants. There was a thing called ethics and his agency evidently forgot about them. They got called out on it. There is a reason agents have the reputation that they have. Kudos to the Braves for standing up to them.

Instead of trying to get technical and explain away their actions as just fine, all he had to do was say that they had a big agency, based in both LA and Atlanta. Say that within his own agency they got their wires crossed/had a miscommunication, and that they are extremely sorry to the Braves for misleading them (he could even say apparently misleading).

It would end a lot quicker that way than Tellem digging in his heals saying he did nothing wrong

By nolie

December 18, 2008 9:01 PM | Link to this

Steve [here] is a link to the article on Wren that has twice failed to paste correctly (http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/12/on-frank-wren/)

By brian

December 18, 2008 9:01 PM | Link to this

Tellem can present the offers and the Braves can entertain the offer for less time than it takes me to type this out and hang up. It does not serve the Braves to help his clients get what they want from other teams as Tellem has shown that is what he will do to the Braves.

By cabravesfan

December 18, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this

DOB 70 degrees? Sounds like you all hijacked our weather…I woke up this morning and it was 42 outside (while this may not seem cold to most of you, when you live in a place where the average December temperature is 75- 42 is COLD)

And last time i checked the Braves, or any other team, do not have to entertain any offer that does not work for them- regardless of where it came from…I for one am pleased to see the front office take a hard stand on something like this

By The Real Joebrave

December 18, 2008 9:08 PM | Link to this

There once was a bitshag named Tellem, who to a Wren took Fookie and tried to sellem. The offer was squat,off to L.A. he’d trot, And Shuerholtz said go to Hellem!!!! Has anyone here ever noticed that Fookie rhymes with DOOKIE??? No wonder stit shinks!!!!

By ShawnB

December 18, 2008 9:11 PM | Link to this

Didn’t someone on the earlier blog post the email address to that dirt-bag agency. If someone did, please put it up again so we can continue letting them know what a great…. organization they run.

By DrHoo

December 18, 2008 9:12 PM | Link to this

To all fellow blog denizens - Cheer up! Lots of overreaction on this blog, in part because our capable host is an optimist at heart and thinks every deal is going to get done until it doesn’t. The truth is, the Peavy deal and the potential Burnett signing were both high risk, high reward type deals, very similar to the Teixera trade, which I would hazard to guess few of us would repeat if given a do-over. You give up that much money, or trade away that amount of talent for a single player, that player’s health and effectiveness become a Sword of Damocles hanging over the organization. Getting those deals done might have helped the Braves get over the hump, but also could have destroyed us for many, many years (ask the Mets if they would like to reverse the Mo Vaughn and Pedro signings).

And the bright side is, we still have cash and prospects, and, funny thing, you don’t have to spend either in December!!!! You also don’t have to gamble on Sheets or overpay Lowe if you don’t want to. Save the money, use it for short term contracts, or wait and use it in the summer. This is a young team, and one that already has an ace. His name is Tim Hudson, he just isn’t playing in 2009. So we may playing for 2010. So stay the course, see if you can compete with what we have. If we have a relatively injury-free season for once, Smoltz can pitch, Francouer returns to form, it’s not all that far-fetched. The Phillies won last year with a joke of a pitching staff compared to what we have now (who would you put on this Braves team after Hamels?). If we are close, use that 44 million to bolster the team in July. After, 44 million goes a lot further if you are only paying for half a season instead of a full season, or can be used to offset future salaries if we pick up someone with a long term deal. Or, just develop the youngsters. Maybe, just maybe, we see Rays-like development from Hanson and an outfielder or two. If not, you’re ready for 2010 with the youngsters, and can spend money next year instead of this.

Despite the roller-coaster of emotions, the only missed move I regret is being screwed by Furcal and his agents. There really wasn’t much risk or downside to that acquisition, we were getting him short-term and cheap and it sure would be nice to have lead-off fixed. Wren is doing a good job, let’s let him keep doing it, and maybe we’ll be calling him a genius in October next year or the one after.

By brent a.

December 18, 2008 9:13 PM | Link to this

I’m glad to see that some people know how to discern between legality and ethics.

The Braves have never said, or even intimated, that Kinzer & Co. broke any rules. In fact, it appears that they have been very careful to not say that.

However, they’ve also done a very nice job of painting Kinzer and Furcal as scoundrels, who used them to get a better deal with LA, even going so far as to say, “We’re good”, and asking for a term sheet.

Sure, they didn’t sign the term sheet or contract. We know that. But, even though everything is “nice and legal”, it doesn’t mean that the actions of Kinzer and Furcal are not reprehensible, and that they don’t undermine the integrity of negotiation.

By Bravosimos

December 18, 2008 9:14 PM | Link to this

I alwaya liked Furcal….oh well…..

By Steve from OH

December 18, 2008 9:15 PM | Link to this

nolie, I saw that link. That’s just bad timing, lol. I hope Frank uses more stats than Bradbury thinks he does, but that doesn’t mean I think he should throw out scouting and become Billy Beane on steroids. I hope he uses sabermetrics to evaluate his major league personnel, anyway. I’ve got no complaints about how he is building/evaluating the farm system and draft. Can’t argue against results, and that isn’t the natural habitat for advanced stats anyway (but OBP/SLG/ and K/9 and BB/9 still work!).

I’m no sabermetrician, but I see no objection to keeping an open mind and at least using OBP, for crissakes.

By cvbraves

December 18, 2008 9:17 PM | Link to this

DOB, thanks for the recent, much more reasonable article than Mr.Bradley.

Thanks Bobby Cox, Frank Wren and John Schuerholz. You all have my (and many other’s, I’m sure) sincere appreciation for your efforts.

Bobby, you will always be the very best (how quick folks forget, eh?)

Mr. Wren, hang-in-there, you’ve given great effort so far and done the best you possibly could given the circumstances.

Mr. Schuerholz, your support of Mr. Wren was terrific as was your response which you did, in deed, make public.

Actually, I hope the three of you don’t read these AJC “blogs” — many of the “bloggers” certainly don’t sound like true Braves fans! And, probably aren’t.

By JS

December 18, 2008 9:17 PM | Link to this

Do the Braves cut Peter Moylan since he’s represented by the Wasserman Media Group?

By tvsportscaster

December 18, 2008 9:17 PM | Link to this

Look it’s easy enough to prove that Tellem is a liar yet again with his statement today. I’m sure that Frank Wren saved the voice message he received from Paul Kinzer about faxing over the term sheet. All he has to do his make that public and we know once for all, that Tellem and Kinzer are a couple of snakes. And oh yeah, you can put Rafael Furcal in the reptile category as well for allowing it to happen.

By Atlanta Motorist

December 18, 2008 9:18 PM | Link to this

I, for one, am glad Furcal isn’t coming back.

If it serves our clients we will continue to present opportunities to the Braves, which in accordance with the rules governing Major League Baseball, the Braves must entertain. We hope that once emotions have subsided, the Braves will act in a manner consistent with not only their obligations under the Collective Bargaining Agreement and The National Labor Relations Act, but also the best interests of the franchise.

WTF is this? He makes it sound like if they present something to the team, they’re under an obligation to sign that player.

By DrHoo

December 18, 2008 9:19 PM | Link to this

Also, a lot of negativity is being directed at the agents, but they work for Furcal, Ultimately, this goes on him. Any residual good will i had for him after his time in the ATL is now long gone.

By Kelly's Big Johnson

December 18, 2008 9:19 PM | Link to this

Note to Austin from Kelly’s Big Johnson

It is always nice to be noticed. It was real lonely in these shorts until the left nut got DSL. Now Kelly’s log can blog!

* Note to DOB from Kelly’s Big Johnson*

Now that the Furcal deal has gone flacid, if you were GM, would you rebuild for 2009 or make a serious run at a Dunn or Sheets? Personally, I think that Sheets has a big stain already, and Dunn is not something those like me like to hear.

I like Baldelli. He reminds me of me. Long, lean, and mean with the bat.

By The Real Joebrave

December 18, 2008 9:19 PM | Link to this

I come from a place in South Ga. where if ya pulled that kind of $hit You got your by god @ss kicked!!!

Go get him Shuerholtz, kick the crap out of that meandering piece of steamy dung!!!

On a personal level THANK YOU KINZER FOR SAVING US 30MILLION DOLLA”S!!!! I f anyone here thinks Ol FDOOKIE, is gonna play more than 80 games YOU’RE DELUSIONAL!!! So yes Kinzer saved Frank Wren from himself!!!

Now go kick his @ss Schuerholtz,beat the he11 out of him!!!

By Salty Dawg

December 18, 2008 9:22 PM | Link to this

Didn’t someone on the earlier blog post the email address to that dirt-bag agency. If someone did, please put it up again so we can continue letting them know what a great…. organization they run.

I believe it is listed on the front page of their website, for those who want to inquire about their clients. Feel free to start a healthy spam campaign.

Looks like the agents are now coming back refuting Wren’s stance on the chain of events. Of course, none of us was there at the time. But I think I’ll take Wren’s word over that of a filthy agent any day. The majority of their job is spinning bullsh!t, so why should this pile be any different.

By signmanny

December 18, 2008 9:23 PM | Link to this

SIGN MANNY RAMIREZ NOW! We have the money and could imagine the lineup with him in there.1. Schafer / Anderson2. Escobar3. Chipper  ( hit .400 for sure )4. Manny5. Mac6. Kotchman7. Frenchy8. K.J.and he would fill the seats in the Ted every night .What do you think ?

By woogidy

December 18, 2008 9:25 PM | Link to this

Braves have become a laughingstock. SAD. I love them and always will.

By Marc

December 18, 2008 9:26 PM | Link to this

I still don’t understand why we haven’t inked Baldelli yet. It just… It just needs to happen.

By Tomas

December 18, 2008 9:33 PM | Link to this

DOB, I just read a comment in mlbtraderumors that said that when JD Drew opted out of his contract, the Dodgers would never do bussines again with Scott Boras, that only lasted one season. Is that true?

By P

December 18, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

Boy it sucks when your team finally decides it has money to spend….. and can’t give it away.

Time to Slash ticket prices 100 losses here we come. 0 rotation, 0 power….0 interest.

By Rack em

December 18, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

If the braves sign Manny then he would single handly ruin all the rookies for the Braves. Manny is one piece of work and nobody is bidding on him. The teams that had him dont want him back. Man that must tell you something. I dont want a Manny or a Barry on our team.

I seem to remember a couple years back where a bunch of rookies came in and played their hearts out. Why not let the next group come on up. Im tired of seeing these over payed players demand and use the fans for their money. I want to see some fun and action. Would I go watch the rookies lose. You betcha. Would I go to see Manny play. Nope, catch ya in Gwinnett. Its cheaper and those players play the game.

Remember Manny and his words.. Something about his team not deserving a player as great as he is. Oh give me a break. Hes a ball player, he needs to get a life. Please please no big headed self imposed superstars. They are very very boaring.

By Rack em

December 18, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

If the braves sign Manny then he would single handly ruin all the rookies for the Braves. Manny is one piece of work and nobody is bidding on him. The teams that had him dont want him back. Man that must tell you something. I dont want a Manny or a Barry on our team.

I seem to remember a couple years back where a bunch of rookies came in and played their hearts out. Why not let the next group come on up. Im tired of seeing these over payed players demand and use the fans for their money. I want to see some fun and action. Would I go watch the rookies lose. You betcha. Would I go to see Manny play. Nope, catch ya in Gwinnett. Its cheaper and those players play the game.

Remember Manny and his words.. Something about his team not deserving a player as great as he is. Oh give me a break. Hes a ball player, he needs to get a life. Please please no big headed self imposed superstars. They are very very boaring.

By DHD

December 18, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

SIgn Dunn. Do it.

By Robert (Chipper Is The Best)

December 18, 2008 9:36 PM | Link to this

Tellam and Kinzer can say whatever they want. JS may be a lot of things but a liar isn’t one of them. He said along with Wren that an offer sheet was requested and they faxed it over. DOB himself said that offer sheets aren’t requested unless a deal is in place.

What they did was underhanded and triffling. And, I can guarantee the other 29 teams are looking at this situation and taking some serious reservations when negotating with them.

Futhermore for Tellam to say an “agreement was never made” is a damn lie. Ken Rosenthal along with Buster Olney reported that a deal was in place. And neither one of those guys report something unless they know it to be true.

By The Real Joebrave

December 18, 2008 9:36 PM | Link to this

Sports Agents= Pimps Pro Athletes= Ho’s

Man these guys never cease to amaze me!!! So, a guy can sign a contract for say 10 mill a year. Said guy can tweak his titty,lay out of work, and never get fired.

Yet another guy can stub his toe,wrench his gut(swinging at golf balls no doubt)lay out of work,and never get fired.

While yet another can sprain his family jewels lay out of work,and never get fired.

And still yet another can go Ice Skating, break his own damn leg, lay out of work and never get fired.

It is no wonder the economy is screwed up. I don’t blame Wren, he actually seems to be the only one acting like he has some damn sense…

I wonder if I twist my titty,sprin the nuggets,and break my own damn leg while on the god forsaken golf course and lay my @ss outta work, will my boss fire me??? He11 yes he would and faster that a rabbit can squirt in the woods….

I long for the lovable teams of the 70’s and 80’s, when a player was a player. When a player had some loyalty sans Dale Murphy, Chris Chambliss,Mike Lum,Ralph Garr,Jerry Royster,Orlando Cepeda, etal…..

Damn today’s player with the exception of a few, One John Smoltz comes to mind. Watching that painful performance in Houston when his elbow was about to explode.He necver quit, never gave up,never lost his Integrity!!! Something a lot of these so-called professional athletes should learn about.

When the team was a little short of monet, did he bolt for more somewhere else??? NO!!! whan they needed some flexibility did he pi$$ and moan for more? NO He took less!!! Same can be said for Chipper!!! He took less!! Did these guys have to?? NO!!

It’s all in Your raising folks..A true testament to the parents!!!

By austinbrave

December 18, 2008 9:38 PM | Link to this

Does anybody have Kizner’s Atlanta address. I would like to give him a christmas gift. HA HA HA

By Interested Observer

December 18, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this

Tellem’s statement seems to only address the events of Monday evening, when reportedly the terms were agreed to but Kinzer indicated he needed to run it by Furcal. It says nothing about Tuesday morning, when Kinzer said “we’re set, raffy’s excited, send me the term sheet”

Also, wasn’t Kinzer quoted as saying he wanted Raffy to sleep on it so he didn’t make an emotional decision? Tellem’s statement says that Raffy requested time to sleep on it.

Better keep your lies straight, boys!

By Efrim

December 18, 2008 9:41 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH

I’m no sabermetrician, but I see no objection to keeping an open mind and at least using OBP, for crissakes.

Right there with ya man.

By TennesseePaul

December 18, 2008 9:41 PM | Link to this

Sounds like Arn is trying to prove he isns’t an arse. Too late. I think most every team in baseball saw what happened an knows the way things work. I don’t think any team in baseball is going to think he was acting in an honorable fashion.

As to this point: If it serves our clients we will continue to present opportunities to the Braves, which in accordance with the rules governing Major League Baseball, the Braves must entertain

I looked through the collective bargaining agreement and couldn’t find where a team is required to “entertain” a player. I suppose he said this to cut off potential collusion in the sport against his agency. But in any case, one team refusing to sign a player is not collusion.
Below is ARTICLE IV of the collective bargaining agreement. This is the only part I could find which discussed the matter of contracts. There were other articles concerning free agency, assignment, the reserve clause and so forth but after reviewing those, I could not find where a team is required to “entertain” a player.

ARTICLE IV—Negotiation and Approval of Contracts
A Player, if he so desires, may designate an agent to conduct on his behalf, or to assist him in, the negotiation of an individual salary and/or Special Covenants to be included in his Uniform Player’s Contract with any Club, provided such agent has been certified to the Clubs by the Association as authorized to act as a Player Agent for such purposes.

The Association shall provide the Office of the Commissioner with a comprehensive list of the certified Player Agent(s) whom each Player has designated to act on his behalf for the purposes described in this Article IV. Further, the Association shall provide the Office of the Commissioner with any changes to such Player Agent designations, including the Player Agent designations of Players who have been added to a Major League roster, on a weekly basis.

If the Association has notified the Office of the Commissioner that a Player has designated a certified Player Agent or Agents to act on his behalf for the purposes described in this Article IV, no Club may negotiate or attempt to negotiate an individual salary and/or Special Covenants to be included in a Uniform Player’s Contract with any Player Agent(s) other than such Player Agent(s).

A Club may require a Player’s physical presence only once during contract negotiations. This limitation shall not apply to telephone conference calls, at reasonable times, with a Player and his certified Player Agent. A Player required to be physically present during negotiations shall be entitled to be paid by the Club for round-trip first-class transportation and first-class hotel costs. Upon execution of a Uniform Player’s Contract by the Club and Player, the Club promptly shall submit the Contract, in duplicate, to the Commissioner for approval. Within 20 days of receipt, the Commissioner shall approve or disapprove the Contract (with notice to the Association), or provide the Association with a written explanation of why the Contract has not been approved. This period is extended to 30 days if a Contract is received by the Commissioner between February 15 and April 15. Within ten days after the Commissioner is to provide an explanation of why a Contract has not been approved, the Commissioner shall approve or disapprove the Contract. (See Attachment l.) Any Grievance challenging the Commissioner’s conduct under this Article shall be handled by the Parties on an expedited basis with documents being exchanged within 10 days of the filing of the Grievance, a hearing commencing within 15 days of the filing of the Grievance and the Panel issuing an Award (with an opinion to follow, if necessary) no later than 15 days following the commencement of the hearing.

By Steve from OH

December 18, 2008 9:41 PM | Link to this

Tim Brown has quoted an AL GM that said “I’d be furious” if Kinzer pulled that crap on him.

By BO......

December 18, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this

NO DULL OFF SEASON IN ATLANTA…..

By H8 Love

December 18, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this

Screw LA,screw Furcal,screw this and screw that and screw the 2009 season..why even play we ain’t going anywhere..WREN is like OBAMA, accomplished ..NOTHING…. 2011 is going to be like 1991 worst to first year…please let the kids play…. DOB you are awsome..keep up the good work..you are the best.GO BRAVOS…!

By McFann O –[zzz]

December 18, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this

P 0 rotation, 0 power….0 interest.

I got int’rest…[sigh], when Spring Training ends…

By Salty Dawg

December 18, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this

If it serves our clients we will continue to present opportunities to the Braves, which in accordance with the rules governing Major League Baseball, the Braves must entertain. We hope that once emotions have subsided, the Braves will act in a manner consistent with not only their obligations under the Collective Bargaining Agreement and The National Labor Relations Act, but also the best interests of the franchise.

You gotta love this guy. If I were Wren and these clowns dared to come to me with another offer after this, I would politely lay it on the table and whip out Kelly’s Big Johnson and relieve myself on it. Take that to the union jackass. The best interests of the franchise are pretty closely tied to NOT getting jerked around by unethical agents.

By Lew

December 18, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this

TenPaul-Moylan is only in his second year (unless they count the one he missed). It will be three years before he hits free agency (if not 4). When have we kept a relief pitcher for that long anyway?

By mike p in wc

December 18, 2008 9:46 PM | Link to this

players and agents are at the point of using the braves as a way to get more money or more teams interested in them now? Wren has a right to be p** and so do Braves fans. This organization and team is a whole lot bigger than any one player current, or past. No one is bigger than the team and essentially the game. Tellum and whoever else need not worry about us (the Braves) anymore apparently. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice… This organization is one of the greatest in baseball and all of sports and is not to ever be shown such disrespect. I stand behind everything this organization and its players do. Go Braves!!!

By TennesseePaul

December 18, 2008 9:47 PM | Link to this

WTF is this? He makes it sound like if they present something to the team, they’re under an obligation to sign that player.

Exactly. It’s a ridiculous statement. From a different angle is sounds like he is saying every team must offer a contract to every free agent player. I didn’t find any such thing in the bargaining agreement.

He just sh!t himself when JS said the Braves wouldn’t be dealing with his clients. The Braves have one of the larger piles of cash out there this off season and they just blocked that stack from Arn.

Good luck finding a home for Randy Suckin’ Wolf. It’s just such good fortune that Wolf is a client of this guy… I can sleep easy the rest of the off-season.

By Joe M.

December 18, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this

Yeah what is their addesses? I want to send them some manure mail.

(Go to: manuremail DOT com)

By Najeh Davenpoop

December 18, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this

I’m not the agent-hater most sports fans are, but I applaud the Braves’ decision to suspend dealings with that agency. What Kinzer did, if the Braves’ allegations are true, goes far and beyond anything that would be considered acceptable anywhere.

I’d like to see the Braves make a play for Dye — never thought the Braves should have traded him in the first place.

By MiamiBeachBravesFan

December 18, 2008 9:51 PM | Link to this

Damn, DOB, don’t I look bright right about now.

I’ve said it all along. Too many missing pieces, too many question marks, too many good prospects, and a grand opportunity to save money during the 2009 season.

Why waste money when no one knows where the economy is going to go? Things will get worse before they get better with the national economy. Fiscal prudence will allow the Braves to recover quicker than other franchises.

I say save that $45 million, re-sign Glavine and Smoltz for one season should their health warrant it, and be happy that your rotation will have a front four of Hudson, Vasquez, Jurrjens, and Hanson for 2010.

Keep Yunel Escobar. Is he that bad a teammate that the Braves continue to shop the guy around WITH NO LEGIT SS IN THE PIPELINE TO REPLACE HIM? He had a rep as someone whom coaches found difficulty in working with back in the minors. Maybe he’s not Braves’ material and the average fan does not know that about him. Who knows? We don’t.

That said, we have a handful of prospects that are worthy of the Brian McCann treatment, which is to say, sign ‘em early on before they get to the latter part of their arbitration years. That way, you keep the really good ones in the fold beyond the perfunctory five year period, like the Indians did back in the ‘90’s with their really good teams.

Fans need to stop, pause, reflect, and think long-term. The present roster is filled with a lot of young, exciting players who are still developing. 2009 can be a fun season where the talent can flourish in preparation for a run in 2010. Hanson needs 2009 to stretch his innings, Jurrjens needs to overcome the sophomore jinx, Vasquez needs to prove that he can be an effective Brave, and Hudson needs to log a few starts at the end of the season.

2009 can be the season of Smoltz’s and Glavine’s last hurrah. What if the two “geezers” catch lightning - and lucky good health - in a bottle (not of HGH), and become a solid four and five combo through early August? Or can Charlie Morton develop? Or can Jo-Jo Reyes finally open his mind and get it? Or can Anthony Lerew (who I still hold out much hope for) become your surprise number five out of spring training.

DOB, you said it; there is a lot of talent. Tommy Hanson can start the season in Gwinnett and be with the big club by July. Jorge Campillo can be a solid, if not spectacular, fifth until Hanson arrives, and there are still more starters to chose from.

Those who do not start combine to create a deep bullpen filled with veterans and youngsters than can do a more than serviceable job, not least of which are Gonzalez, Soriano, and Moylan (later in the spring).

Maybe a season without expectations will relax the likes of Francoeur, Johnson, Kotchman, and whoever plays CF. After almost two decades of having the ballclub think that they have to do it, let’s have one season where expectations have nowhere to go but up.

As we say down here: the ball is round; you never know which way it’s gonna roll.

By Robert (Chipper Is The Best)

December 18, 2008 9:51 PM | Link to this

Only one issue with signing Manny. If the Braves signed him then they would nto be able to get a pitcher which they desperately need. It will take at least $22 mil per year to get Manny. The Yankees are already talking as if that is what they’ll give him.

By j-school dropout

December 18, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this

Rack Em:

“I seem to remember a couple years back where a bunch of rookies came in and played their hearts out. Why not let the next group come on up. Im tired of seeing these over payed players demand and use the fans for their money. I want to see some fun and action. Would I go watch the rookies lose. You betcha. Would I go to see Manny play. Nope, catch ya in Gwinnett. Its cheaper and those players play the game.”

You forget that the young 1991 Braves were bolstered by veterans: Terry Pendleton, Charlie Liebrandt, Sid Bream. These guys were top free agents, especially TP.

Without these FAs, the Braves would never have gone to the Series in 1991.

Young talent needs senior influence.

By Robert (Chipper Is The Best)

December 18, 2008 9:54 PM | Link to this

As infuriating as all of this is I think we have to look on the bright side. The failed deals for Burnett and Furcal may be blessings in disguise. Burnett is injury prone and will be 37 when that contract is up. Furcal does have the bad back and is 32 adn will be 35 when the option year pops up. It is very possible Burnett could turn into another Carl Pavano and Furcal could be Damsaco (sp?) Garcia. Remember him from the late 80s. I remember how he was praised as being a prized pickup for the Braves and he didn’t do a damn thing.

By Steve from OH

December 18, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this

Well, if there’s any positives to take out of this, at least we won’t be signing Randy Wolf anytime soon. Hooray!

By Zerevon

December 18, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this

Bring back LEO go get talented SHEETS and LOWE let LEO work his magic on those two…why not what do we have to lose…?

By Efrim

December 18, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this

Good luck finding a home for Randy Suckin’ Wolf. It’s just such good fortune that Wolf is a client of this guy… I can sleep easy the rest of the off-season.

I wish Jon Garland was a client of Wasserman. As well as Braden Looper.

By g-h00k-1

December 18, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB,

I read your blog all the time. Yours is, by far, the best baseball blog on the internet.

Anyway, I wanted to know why the Braves don’t have more interest in Derek Lowe. You’ve talked about Lowe in several of your recent blogs but I can’t recall any specific reasons why Braves aren’t interested.

I know he’s a Boras client, but he seems to be a perfect fit for the Bravos. I remember earlier this offseason you wrote that Braves players were raving about Lowe and wanted him to sign with the Braves. He has a reputation as a good clubhouse guy and is consistent and durable.

Is he demanding a ridiculous contract or something? I just don’t get it. Lowe is a much better fit for the Braves than A.J. “Wears nipple rings” Burnett in my opinion.

By Psg81

December 18, 2008 9:56 PM | Link to this

BRAVES PLAYERS Position Contract Terms

Manny Acosta Relief Pitcher 2008-10: Near Minimum, 2011-13: Arb. Eligible

Josh Anderson Outfielder 2008-10: Near Minimum, 2011-13: Arb. Eligible

Jeff Bennett Relief Pitcher 2008-09: Near Minimum, 2010-12: Arb. Eligible, 2013: Free Agent

Gregor Blanco Outfielder 2008-10: Near Minimum, 2011-13: Arb. Eligible

Blaine Boyer Relief Pitcher 2008-09: Near Minimum, 2010-12: Arb. Eligible, 2013: Free Agent

Jorge Campillo Starting Pitcher 2008-10: Near Minimum, 2011-13: Arb. Eligible

Buddy Carlyle Relief Pitcher 2008-09: Near Minimum, 2010-12: Arb. Eligible, 2013: Free Agent

Elmer Dessens Relief Pitcher 2008: Signed minor league contract

Matt Diaz Outfielder 2008: $1.225 million, 2009-11: Arb. Eligible, 2012: Free Agent

Yunel Escobar Shortstop 2008-10: Near Minimum, 2011-13: Arb. Eligible, 2014: Free Agent

Jeff Francoeur Outfielder 2008: Near Minimum, 2009-11: Arb. Eligible, 2012: Free Agent

Tom Glavine Starting Pitcher 11/19/07: Signed a one-year, $8 million contract. 2008: $8 million, 2009: Free Agent

Mike Gonzalez Relief Pitcher 2008: $2.3625 million, 2009: Arb. Eligible, 2010: Free Agent

Tim Hudson Starting Pitcher 03/01/05: Signed four-year, $47 million extension w/2010 option. 2008: $13 million, 2009: $13 million, 2010: $12 million mutual option w/$1 million buyout, 2011: Free Agent

Omar Infante Outfielder 2008: $1.4 million, 2009: Arb. Eligible, 2010: Free Agent

Chuck James Starting Pitcher 2008: Near Minimum, 2009-11: Arb. Eligible, 2012: Free Agent

Kelly Johnson Second Baseman 2008: Near Minimum, 2009-11: Arb. Eligible, 2012: Free Agent

Brandon Jones Outfielder 2008-10: Near Minimum, 2011-13: Arb. Eligible

Chipper Jones Third Baseman 12/02/05: Signed three-year, $37 million contract w/2009 option. 2008: $11 million, 2009: $8 million-$11 million club option (vests w/450 PA in 2008), 2010: Free Agent

Jair Jurrjens Starting Pitcher 2008-10: Near Minimum, 2011-13: Arb. Eligible

Casey Kotchman First Baseman 2008: $1.45 million, 2009-11: Arb. Eligible, 2012: Free Agent

Anthony Lerew Starting Pitcher 2008-09: Near Minimum, 2010-12: Arb. Eligible

Boone Logan Relief Pitcher 2008-09: Near Minimum, 2010-12: Arb. Eligible

Brian McCann Catcher 03/22/07: Signed six-year, $26.8 million contract w/2013 option ($1 million signing bonus). 2008: $800,000, 2009: $3.5 million, 2010: $5.5 million, 2011: $6.5 million, 2012: $8.5 million, 2013: $13 million club option, 2014: Free Agent

Charlie Morton Starting Pitcher 2008-10: Near Minimum, 2011-13: Arb. Eligible

Peter Moylan Relief Pitcher 2008-09: Near Minimum, 2010-12: Arb. Eligible, 2013: Free Agent

Greg Norton Outfielder 10/13/06: Signed one-year, $800,000 contract w/2008 option. 2008: $1 million, 2009: Free Agent

Eric O’Flaherty Relief Pitcher 2008-09: Near Minimum, 2010-12: Arb. Eligible

Will Ohman Relief Pitcher 01/16/07: Signed two-year, $2.5 million contract. 2008: $1.6 million, 2009: Free Agent

Martin Prado Third Baseman 2008-10: Near Minimum, 2011-13: Arb. Eligible

Jo-Jo Reyes Starting Pitcher 2008-10: Near Minimum, 2011-13: Arb. Eligible

Jeff Ridgway Relief Pitcher 2008-09: Near Minimum, 2010-12: Arb. Eligible

David Ross Catcher 01/15/07: Signed two-year, $4.5 million contract w/2009 option. 2008: $2.525 million, 2009: $3.5 million club option w/$375,000 buyout, 2010: Free Agent

Clint Sammons Catcher 2008-10: Near Minimum, 2011-13: Arb. Eligible

John Smoltz Starting Pitcher 04/26/07: Signed one-year extension w/2009, 2010 options. 2008: $14 million, 2009: $12 million club option (vests w/200 IP in ‘08), 2010: $12 million-$13 million club option

Rafael Soriano Relief Pitcher 01/24/08: Signed a two-year $9 million contract ($500,000 signing bonus). 2008: $2.4 million, 2009: $6.1 million, 2010: Free Agent

Julian Tavarez Relief Pitcher 01/18/06: Signed two-year, $6.7 million contract w/2008 option. 2008: $3.85 million, 2009: Free Agent

Javier Vazquez Starting Pitcher 03/06/07: Signed three-year, $34,5 million extension w/limited NTC. 2008: $11.5 million, 2009: $11.5 million, 2010: $11.5 million, 2011: Free Agent

By 35YearBravesFan

December 18, 2008 9:59 PM | Link to this

Good for John S and Frank W. I wouldn’t deal with Kinzer either. I hope Raffy’s happy with with what he got, cause he’s burned the bridges here.

By BO......

December 18, 2008 10:00 PM | Link to this

MERRY CHIRSTMAS EVERYONE ! its not the end of the world yet. but are you ready. its real close. JESUS is here.

By TennesseePaul

December 18, 2008 10:01 PM | Link to this

Lew: When have we kept a relief pitcher for that long anyway?

Well, one can hope right? Moylan is pretty good. Or at least he was…

By cabravesfan

December 18, 2008 10:02 PM | Link to this

By the way- for all of you clamering to sign Manny- you do realize he and his agent are expecting a 5 or 6 year deal- they all but laughed at the dodgers offer of 2 years $50 million…

By John Schuerholz

December 18, 2008 10:04 PM | Link to this

Everybody go to your windows,open them and scream at the top of your lungs ”I’M JUST AS MAD AS HELL AND I’M NOT ..GOING TO..TAKE IT..ANYMORE !!”.

By Marc

December 18, 2008 10:05 PM | Link to this

Just to help clarify what this agent did, since some people aren’t 100% sure what the big deal is all about, here’s a real world example.

You’re a computer supplier, and you’ve just committed to a contract with a customer for 4 years after private negotiations. He tells you everything’s a go and to send over the papers over (mind you in the business world contracts and documents don’t just magically appear, it takes a lot of time , money, and work to make them up). Then after you send the contract, he immediately takes it to another vendor and says “if you match this we’ll go through you instead”. The other vendor says OK, and you get left out in the cold while the other company (IE your competition) benefits from your work.

Is it illegal? No. But in the business world, which is largely self-regulated, this is pretty much an unforgivable sin that typically ruins company to company relations.

There are also cases of open bidding, usually on government contracts, which could be compared to the Burnett signing. There was nothing unethical about that though, no one was used as a pawn or source of leverage; the Yanks simply outbid everyone else and then earned exclusive talks, which then led to the contract.

By JC from UT

December 18, 2008 10:13 PM | Link to this

Why would FW not consider signing Orlando Hudson to essetially take the place of Furcal? This would still give the oppertunity to either trade KJ or move him to LF (Same situation as Furcal). Or sign Orlando Cabrerra and trade Yunel for pitching. Neither of these guys are goibg to demand more money than Furcal, plus isn’t Hudson from the Georgia area?

By brian

December 18, 2008 10:16 PM | Link to this

I hope this episode with Tellem will fire up the braves organization - from the front office to the coaches and to the players. This should unify the Braves. DOB will probably cringe at this song but reading JS’s response which was awesome, this song came to mind.

Twisted Sister

We’re Not Gonna Take It Lyrics

Oh We’re Not Gonna Take It no, We Ain’t Gonna Take It oh We’re Not Gonna Take It Anymore

we’ve Got The Right To Choose And there Ain’t No Way We’ll Lose It this Is Our Life, This Is Our Song we’ll Fight The Powers That Be Just don’t Pick Our Destiny ‘cause you Don’t Know Us, You Don’t Belong

oh We’re Not Gonna Take It no, We Ain’t Gonna Take It oh We’re Not Gonna Take It Anymore

oh You’re So Condescending your Gall Is Never Ending we Don’t Want Nothin’, Not A Thing From You your Life Is Trite And Jaded boring And Confiscated if That’s Your Best, Your Best Won’t Do

oh………………… oh………………… we’re Right/yeah we’re Free/yeah we’ll Fight/yeah you’ll See/yeah

oh We’re Not Gonna Take It no, We Ain’t Gonna Take It oh We’re Not Gonna Take It Anymore

oh We’re Not Gonna Take It no, We Ain’t Gonna Take It oh We’re Not Gonna Take It Anymore no Way!

oh………………… oh………………… we’re Right/yeah we’re Free/yeah we’ll Fight/yeah you’ll See/yeah

we’re Not Gonna Take It no, We Ain’t Gonna Take It we’re Not Gonna Take It Anymore

we’re Not Gonna Take It, No! no, We Ain’t Gonna Take It we’re Not Gonna Take It Anymore

just You Try And Make Us we’re Not Gonna Take It come On no, We Ain’t Gonna Take It you’re All Worthless And Weak we’re Not Gonna Take It Anymore now Drop And Give Me Twenty we’re Not Gonna Take It oh Crinch Pin no, We Ain’t Gonna Take It oh You And Your Uniform we’re Not Gonna Take It Anymore

By Billy Pilgrim

December 18, 2008 10:18 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH

In re: Wolf; couldn’t agree more bro! This Furcal cloud turns out to have the silver-est (?) of linings!

By Treasurer Paulsen

December 18, 2008 10:25 PM | Link to this

“And folks, don’t think this economy isn’t going to affect some of the remaining free agents”. Did I just read this as the opening sentence of the 4th paragraph of this Blog?? The insight of this statement is remarkable. Who would have thought the worst economic meltdown since the Great Depression—And Folks, We ain’t through—-would have an effect on Major League Baseball. If John Maynard Keynes, John Kenneth Galbraith or Adam Smith were still with us they would probably be nominating DOB for the Nobel Laureate im Economics. Don’t let Scott Boras read this dribble. He still has about 8 “Super” franchises to play with and BLANK the others.

A professor at the Wharton School of Business said it best—I’ll paraphrase—If the owners were to request tomorrow a rejection of their Antitrust Exemption with a goal of the dissolution of Collective Brgaining Agreement making ALL players free agents. The TOP 100 players would get theirs from various clubs, BUT then nothing would be left and you would have about 650 players clamoring(DEMANDING) for a salary cap—Think About It. Also as pertains to Mega TV Deals(YES, etc), all it would take is the Royals rolling into Yankee Stadium on a July Sunday and saying “We want 30 Percent of the TV revenue or we aren’t playing” The Yankees say “No” and the Royals say “Have yourself a nice intersquad game”.

By jenkins

December 18, 2008 10:29 PM | Link to this

BO….Merry Christmas to you brother and your Family. Yes I’m ready, God bless.

Braves Fans are the Best in the World. Its never as bad as we think..Keep the faith, Wren is working 24 hrs aday and so is DOB. Have a great Christmas.

By BravesFan

December 18, 2008 10:36 PM | Link to this

Id rather give Lowe 20 Million than Sheets 10Million!!

Sheets is the next Hampton waiting to happen 2 some unlucky team. I guess Furcal couldnt take a backseat to Escobar!
Good for us we still have the better player!!

By mb

December 18, 2008 10:37 PM | Link to this

I looked at the 2010 free agent list and no player names jump off the page that the Braves just have to have. Of course there’s Matt Holiday,and Scott Boras is the agent so forget him.

I keep seeing J. Dye’s name as someone the Braves would like to have in the OF. Who are we planning on trading to get Dye? I read that the White Sox need a center fielder and they tried to get G. Herandez or J. Shafer in the trade for Vazquez. We didn’t trade them then, I hope we don’t trade now for Dye. I don’t see that as a good move. Dye will be a free agent in 2010 and his contract is $12M per year. Short term fix.

No one seems to like the idea of signing Lowe,because of his age, cost, and Scott Boras.

I think one team we need to look to put a deal togther with is, the Tampa Bay Rays, for one of their minor league pitchers, Jeff Niemann, Jeremy Hellickson, or Wade Davis. All of these pitchers could be a good starter for the Braves this year and probably won’t see any playing time with the Rays. Also, this would give us another young pitcher instead of signing a old guy.

I think the Braves need to stick to the youth movement. Forget old, tried and injured players. I’m not sure I would sign Smoltz, as much as I respect him as a player. The Braves aren’t going to contend this year. Let him sign with a contender and save the money. I’d let Glavine go too. Again, great history with the Braves, but not worth the money or risk with his injured shoulder.

Let’s focus on the future and forget the quick fix. We haven’t been in the playoffs in 3 years, what’s another year. Build a World Series team. Keep all the good young players and trade for good young players.

Go Braves.

By jenkins

December 18, 2008 10:38 PM | Link to this

I hope ESPN and other Sports networks tell what JS had to say about the deal and Furcals agents. They did report what Wrens said, but they need to report JS’s statements. Good night.

By vaibhav

December 18, 2008 10:39 PM | Link to this

Let’s just start over yet go back to where we were to begin with before the start of 2008 season…even though Tex is close to signing with Red Sox..lets go after him hard and pay him the money we were willing to pay AJ 10 mil and Furcal 10 mil…thats 20 mil for Mr. Tex.

Trade for Peavy…make the deal work..one way or other…he is the best pitcher available via trade or free-agency. he is better proven record than sheets and lowe. trade vasquez even if u have to combine with KJ(replaced by Prado)

Get Smoltz and see how his arm is doing..if its really good than plug him in behind peavy and we have solid 1-2 punch with jurrjens, campillo reyes.

Since i have done so much work for the braves…please find a good outfielder..i dont like burrell but if hits 30HR & 100+ RBIs..bring him on as well.

GO BRAVES…WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONS 2009!!!

By tlj

December 18, 2008 10:41 PM | Link to this

DOB,

I read the email sent by Furcal’s agent and he failed to address the Term Sheet. Since it was not discussed I think we can all assume one was requested. It would also be safe to assume the agent used it in negotating with the Dodgers.

I listened to MLB on XM radio today and every analyst stated that requesting the Term Sheet was the last step before taking the physical.

The agent is correct that a deal was not signed but based on Baseball’s Gentleman’s Agreement it is a hand shake and a man’s word. Furcal and his agent have shown their word is not to be trusted. In the future I’m sure other teams will deal this group very carefully.

I’m glad JS took the position he took and I hope in the near future the Braves stay away from this group. Furcal really blew it, had he came back he could have been remembered with fondness as being a part of the Braves glory years. Instead he will remembered for what he is, a person with no character. I doubt he will be invited back to many of the reunions. When the Dodgers come to town maybe us blog-heads should get together and all go boo him.

Okay, let’s all put this behind us and get on with securing one or two more pitchers and an OF.

By 18 Wheels of Love

December 18, 2008 10:42 PM | Link to this

Jermaine Dye makes the most sense. Lowe now becomes an option. I think Lowe was always on the radar, just down a little bit in the pecking order. I’d still like to see them make a real run at Greinke.

By Lew

December 18, 2008 10:46 PM | Link to this

Twisted Sister? Seriously?

By Joe M.

December 18, 2008 10:46 PM | Link to this

Yahoo’s Tim Brown:

Agent dares Braves to boycott his players

In the aftermath, Braves president John Schuerholz called the agency – and, presumably, Tellem and fellow agent Paul Kinzer, in particular – “despicable” and “unprofessional,” according to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. For the most part, Kinzer handled the Furcal negotiations.

Both Schuerholz and general manager Frank Wren said they no longer would deal with players represented by the Wasserman agency, whose clientèle includes Chase Utley, Hanley Ramirez, Aramis Ramirez, Hideki Matsui, Carlos Lee, Nomar Garciaparra, Frank Thomas and Francisco Rodriguez, among others. Tellem also represents Randy Wolf, a free-agent pitcher the Braves might have considered for their rotation.

“The Atlanta Braves will no longer do business with that company – ever,” Schuerholz said.

Several general managers and agents contacted by Yahoo! Sports said Thursday the term sheet constitutes a handshake agreement, and they couldn’t recall a situation when such an agreement was broken.

“I’d be furious,” an American League general manager said.

Seriously: HOORAY! And I mean that on the Randy Wolf thing. The thought of the Braves possibly signing him was scary as heck, and I wrote as much many times on this blog since the start of the offseason. If only Jon Garland would make this guy his agent too! Oh, and Peter Moylan change to someone else (like Lonnie Cooper.)

By Mark

December 18, 2008 10:49 PM | Link to this

The Fact is if 95% of this team lived up to its potential we would be looking at a close race…..Motivation equal success..thats what these guys need….

By AdirondackDave

December 18, 2008 10:51 PM | Link to this

Maybe JS is thinking ball players are soon going to be a whole lot cheaper and one agency, more or less, will mean nothing to the clubs that have kept their cash for a later day. If so, I think he’s right. The mega-stars will probably hold their own but the rest will be feeling very vulnerable when they start seeing all those empty seats.

By Marie

December 18, 2008 10:55 PM | Link to this

Backstabbers - great song. How appropriate.

By A-ville Ranger

December 18, 2008 10:57 PM | Link to this

Your Cash Ain’t Nothin’ But Trash by Steve Miller

One,two,three yeah it’s alright look here I was walking down the main track one night I met a fine chick she was built just right She stopped when I flashed my roll I told her she could have all of my dough She turned around and with a frown she said,this ain’t no circus And I don’t need a clown

Your cash ain’t nothin’ but trash your cash ain’t nothin’ but trash your cash ain’t nothin’ but trash And there ain’t no need in your hangin’ around

Just To make a hit with that chick I tried to get a Cadillac right quick The man at the place looked so strange I had 900 bucks and some change We disagreed I tried to plead Well he said I ain’t no chicken and I don’t need your feed Your cash ain’t nothin’ but trash your cash ain’t nothin’ but trash your cash ain’t nothin’ but trash

I was walkin’ into town in my white bucks A man with a gun he said,hands up I tried to get away but too slow he got me and took all of my dough I heard him shout as he cut out Well you ain’t lost nothin’ what you ctyin’ about ?

Your cash ain’t nothin but trash your cash ain’t nothin’ but trash your cash ain’t nothin but trash And took my watch and I passed out

I woke up in the arms of A big cop Po-lice station next stop Judge swung his fist down plunk,plunk 20 dollar fine cause you’re drunk Pick up your dough and you can go But all I had was a buffalo

Your cash ain’t nothin but trash your cash ain’t nothin’but trash your cash ain’t nothin’ but trash But I’m sure gonna get me some more.

By Scott

December 18, 2008 10:57 PM | Link to this

DOB…

I would love to get Lowe and Dye, however you may want to preface the fact that these are just your suggestions and that you aren’t predicting this to happen, you know with some of the folks on here, you will get called out if we don’t get them both.

Seriously, how much do you think it would take to sign Lowe to a 3 year deal and what do you think we would have to give Chicago in order to get Dye?

By Tomas

December 18, 2008 10:57 PM | Link to this

I think getting used to the idea of moving Kelly back to left field, would help the Braves. If they can’t sign Bobby Abreu, signing Orlando Hudson would be pretty good. Hudson would definitely be an improvement defensively, his range is awesome, and he has 3 gold gloves to prove it. He is a switch hitter with a high obp %, and with decent power. He might require a deal similar to Furcal’s but 4yrs. A 4yr deal worth 38 million( 8mill, 9mill, 10mill, and then 11 mill). Injuries have plagued Hudson recently. A torn ligament in his left thumb forced him to undergo season-ending surgery on Sept. 10, 2007. Last season, left ankle and left wrist ailments limited him to 107 games. But at least those injuries are nothing to worry about(unlikes Furcals back).

Imagine that lineup:

• CF Jordan Schafer or Josh Anderson( have a 350OBP, and steal 30 bases)
• 2B Orlando Hudspn(300AVG with a 370 OBP, and a 465 SLG, 15HR, 35 2B)
• 3B Chipper Jones(330AVG 25HR 80RBI’s)
• C Brian McCann(308AVG 25HR 90RBI’s)
• LF Kelly Johnson(315AVG 20HR 105RBI’s)
• RF Jeff Franceour(270AVG 17HR 85RBI’s)
• 1B Casey Kotchman(295AVG 15HR 70RBI’s)
• SS Yunel Escobar(290AVG 14HR 65RBI’s)

Pitching wise they sign Kawakami(3 yrs 23 million), Will Ohman(3yrs 11 million), John Smoltz(1yr 3.5 million + incentives=6 million), and Tom Glavine(1yr 2million + incentives=3million). It won’t be the best rotation, but at least it’ll be a competitive one.

• SP John Smoltz 20GS 12-3 with a 3.35 ERA
• SP Jair Jurrjens 32GS 12-9 with a 3.55 ERA
• SP Kenshin Kawakami 28GS 8-12 with a 4.45 ERA
• SP Javier Vazques 32GS 10-14 with a 4.31 ERA
• SP Tom Glavine 16GS 2-6 with a 5.54 ERA
• SP/RP Jorge Campillo 8GS 55AP 8-6 with a 4.32 ERA
• SP Charlie Morton 10 GS 2-4 with a 4.56 ERA
• SP Tommy Hanson 5 GS 3-1 with a 3.20 ERA
• RP Manny Acosta 58AP 3-5 with a 3.67 ERA
• RP Blaine Boyer 55 AP 4-4 with a 4.10 ERA
• LP Will Ohman 62 AP 4-3 with a 3.55 ERA
• RP Jeff Bennet 65 AP 2-2 with a 3.75 ERA
• RP Rafael Soriano 45 AP 2-1 with a 2.67 ERA
• RP Peter Moylan 60 AP 2-4 with a 2.85 ERA
• LP Mike Gonzales 55 AP 1-6 with a 3.65 ERA 30svs
• LP Boone Logan 30 AP 0-3 with a 4.75 ERA

Also resign Greg Norton 1yr 2million. They would have to spend at least 36 million(If Hudson wanted more) around 40 million. At least this team would be competitive, and if smoltz proves to be a medical marble they could actually have a very good chance. This team still needs an ace, to be the compared to the mets and phillies.

By dan

December 18, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this

DOB

**Two questions:

1. Couldn’t some free agents be given a two or three year deal? Even if somewhat limited defensively, one of the free agent options might be available for this amount of time. The upside to this is that you do not have to give up any key prospects or KJ to obtain someone like Jermaine Dye. Such a short term free agent would still be on their way out when Gorkys and Heyward are ready.

2. Don’t the Braves need a left handed starting pitcher? As it stands now, assuming no Glavine, they are all right handed. I think the Braves should make a run at Derek Lowe and possibly Oliver Perez. The kid is young and might benefit being away from New York. He has great stuff.**

By AGTFan

December 18, 2008 11:04 PM | Link to this

I Said Hooray for JS earlier and I stand by it. I am not anti-agent or anti players union, or anti free agency. The whole system falls apart when any of the parties act in a manner that is unethical and totally lacking in integrity. That is exactly what Kinzer did.

I hope the Braves stand by their decision. I’ll be disappointed if they ever enter into negotiations with the Wasserman group again.

By Wasserman Statement

December 18, 2008 11:07 PM | Link to this

Just got this off my chest after reading the laughable statement from Wasserman.

I just sent this email to them concerning their statement. They will just delete it after reading a couple of sentences, but it make me feel better LOL

*Just an opinion. I’ve worked with Unions my entire life and where I generally am 100% Union, the statement you released concerning the negotiations with the Atlanta Braves was laughable at best. Good luck trying to force an organization to even speak with you about any of your clients. There is no way you can force the Atlanta Braves to sign, or even consider, a single one of your clients. I don’t know of a single situation in labor history where the NLRB has considered forcing an employer to hire or contract an employee or vendor when the potential employer has reasonable doubt about the character or ethical practices of said employee or vendor. Your organization’s ethical practices have been called into question. Past practice, or history goes a long way in establishing what the “norms” are and what organizations feel are outside these norms. In short, I’m sure the Braves would have no trouble lining up a host of past and present GM’s and Presidents to witness to the fact that what you did was outside the norm. In short, you guys screwed them over and no court, labor agreement or the NLRB is going to force an organization or corporation to do business with any entity that has screwed them over.

Good luck pushing the Braves to deal with you. I really don’t think they are quaking in their boots waiting for a frivolous lawsuit from either your organization or the Union.*

Sincerely,

By Brad in MT

December 18, 2008 11:13 PM | Link to this

As a daily reader of this blog (but a rare poster) I have to say that I’m proud of JS and Frank Wren for standing up to the agents and bringing their unethical actions to light. I personally e-mailed that company and told them what I thought of them. We don’t need Furcal, we have a lot of money left to spend and I would imagine that Frank will manage to field a very competitive team in 09. We will be in the race in 09 and will improve as our young talent base which Wren has wisely held onto matures. Go Braves!

By Sid

December 18, 2008 11:16 PM | Link to this

DOB- I read your blog every day, but have never posted before. However, after all of the drama the last few weeks (and particularly few days) and the subsequent speculation and conjecture on what the bloggers feel the Braves should do (mainly “rebuilding”) I felt the need to ask a question regarding the veterans either on the current roster (Chipper) or those we may negotiate to bring back (Smoltz and Glavine). Given the turn of events and the distinct possiblity that we may be forced to “rebuild” would those cogs of the organization be willing to spend their last few years or year with an organization that is “rebuilding” and not expected to compete, or do those guys welcome the challenge to leave the organization in the same shape that the got it to a decade ago? Thanks in advance (And I think you are the best beat writer we have had the pleasure of in my time in Atlanta so thanks and keep up the good work we all appreciate it!)

By Couch Tater

December 18, 2008 11:18 PM | Link to this

Has anyone read the book The Last Mogul: Lew Wasserman, MCA and the Hidden History of Hollywood? If not, read the reviews and draw your on conclusions.

By Salty Dawg

December 18, 2008 11:23 PM | Link to this

I just read on mlbtr that after meeting with Teixiera, the Red Sox owner was quoted as saying that the Sox won’t be a factor after hearing about his other offers. Wow! Sounds like Bora$$ went in with his famous “we’ve got huge offers, but I can’t tell which teams” spiel. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, that does to the Tex market. I think it was considered a given by many that the Sox would come in with a huge offer. Not so much I guess.

By YankeeDawg

December 18, 2008 11:24 PM | Link to this

DOB, three things.

I met a fellow Pro-Blogger yesterday Julia Allison, aware of her in your consumption of Pop Culture? Interesting young lady.

Thanks for the Kings of Leon reference.

All of the prior two months of Braves/Scream Machine is forgotten when FW picks up the phone and re-lands Peavy.

And 4th - on your next trip to NYC - Dinosaur BBQ on 131st street, music and queue - right up your alley.

By Tomas

December 18, 2008 11:35 PM | Link to this

Hey Boston are not a factor anymore for Texeira at 8yrs 180 million. Thank god the Braves trading him, they wouldn’t have had a chance.

By Glenn

December 18, 2008 11:35 PM | Link to this

Boo hoo we won’t waste 30 mil on a part timer we did not want 3 years ago…come on Braves wake up, pitching wins games(see 14 years of winners),if your going to throw money at anything why not bring back Andrew…he is home sick and his smile would be welcome!

By Saltywoody

December 18, 2008 11:36 PM | Link to this

Maybe I missed this discussion, but…

Bobby Abreu

No? I believe I’ve read he wants a 2-3 year deal. He plays solid defense, good speed, good arm, some pop, great OBP. Gotta assume he’d be willing to try left field as he gets a little older (plus he could always assume he’ll get right field back when Frenchy forgets everything he practiced in the offseason and starts swinging at crap again…I’d say week two or so).

Anyway, I’m surprised he hasn’t been mentioned more. I know the Braves want a right hander. But Abreu wouldn’t cost prospects and he’d be a good bridge to other talent.

Did I miss the blog where everyone said this was a terrible idea and why don’t we just sign Peavy and Bonds and Manny and Halladay?

Oh, and I was going to be happy to have Fookie back. But I’m equally happy that we’re not shelling out 10 million a year for three years for suspect production. I’m much more concerned about how pathetic the Braves’ front office has looked this offseason. I know it’s not entirely their fault. But, they’ve lost out on every big name they’ve made a play for and now they’re being used as pot-sweeteners for other team’s deals. Just seems like this kind of stuff never happened when Schuerholz was the gm-kinda makes you respect what he did that much more.

By Glenn

December 18, 2008 11:43 PM | Link to this

Please fans let the past settle, a man can only go so long then…puff…their gone! Let Mad Dog,Smoltzie, and Glavine rest in peace…we are not going to win another World Series unless it’s against Cleveland…like i said what’s the odd’s?

By Joe M.

December 18, 2008 11:48 PM | Link to this

Bobby Abreu No? I believe I’ve read he wants a 2-3 year deal. He plays solid defense

Rob Neyer’s blog:

Manny Ramirez -19

Bobby Abreu -15

Pat Burrell -14

Adam Dunn -14

NEGATIVE 15 for Abreu in 2008, meaning his defense allowed the opposing team to score 15 more runs than an absolutely average defensive player would have. He is not a good defender; he is statistically worse than Dunn and Burrell.

By MattyRoss

December 18, 2008 11:52 PM | Link to this

DOB - Did your last paragraph in the Getting back to Lowe section get cut off, or am I hittin’ the nog too hard tonight?

By Saltywoody

December 19, 2008 12:02 AM | Link to this

Joe M

I don’t know what to say to that. To me, it looks like you just listed numbers next to a few players’ names and then said that was how many extra runs they gave up compared to someone average (which seems like an incredibly arbitrary stat).

Then again, I know squat about defensive statistics and you appear to be both a) sane and b) drawing from a reliable source, which is significantly more than can be said for the majority of posts here.

So, I’ll defer to your assessment of Abreu as not great defensively.

But even if that’s the case, doesn’t his speed make up for it if you’re comparing him to guys like Dunn and Burrell? And why do I remember him as being pretty good in the field from his days in Philly?

By brian

December 19, 2008 12:05 AM | Link to this

sorry Lew couldn’t help but pull out a one hit wonder band. As if this off season hasn’t been bad enough, twisted sister has now made its way onto the blog.

By BravesFan n NC

December 19, 2008 12:06 AM | Link to this

DOB,

It seems like that if Tex signs with Boston, and Pettite takes the yankees offer, that there wouldn’t be many teams with the financial resources left to pursue lowe. Do you think 4yr/60mill type of deal would get it done?

By brian

December 19, 2008 12:07 AM | Link to this

sorry Lew couldn’t help but pull out a one hit wonder band. As if this off season hasn’t been bad enough, twisted sister has now made its way onto the blog.

By Run Heap Run

December 19, 2008 12:10 AM | Link to this

From this article

**Several general managers and agents contacted by Yahoo! Sports said Thursday the term sheet constitutes a handshake agreement, and they couldn’t recall a situation when such an agreement was broken.

“I’d be furious,” an American League general manager said.**

Heh. Way to put ‘em on blast, JS.

By brent a.

December 19, 2008 12:12 AM | Link to this

Interesting news on Teixeira, if it holds up.

Would actually like seeing the Nationals overpay for him.

Of course, he’ll probably end up pulling an A-Rod, and forcing his way out of there in a few years, while the Nats pay a portion of his salary and the Red Sox get him for 70 cents on the dollar.

By Joe M.

December 19, 2008 12:19 AM | Link to this

Saltywood, if you want, just go to ESPN’s MLB page and click on Rob Neyer. What I just posted is all there for you.

What it is is the plus/minus (+/-) system from Bill James. It is actually considered the gold standard in defensive metrics. I’m not sure how the average is set, but I think it is based on how the league preforms in any given year. And from there, the numbers come from how many runs saved or lost by a player’s defense from that average is. For example, if a player is +3 defensively, that means he saved and stopped three more runs from scoring with his defense over the course of the full season, which is good. Whereas a -3 would mean the player’s defense allowed opposing teams to score three more runs than a perfectly average defender would have.

Park adjusted though, Dunn and Burrell are actually worse than Abreu….but Abreu is still a pretty awful defender and he is right there with Dunn, Burrell and Manny Ramirez.

By spotts

December 19, 2008 12:20 AM | Link to this

can anyone tell me what stands out about this box score? (Hint: it has to do with Philly’s half of the stats)

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PHI/PHI200109270.shtml

haha, that made my night

By uga-brave

December 19, 2008 12:33 AM | Link to this

good evening everybody,

looks like JS has come to rescue of his boy, frank.

smiling frank has definetely made a mess of things.

while i dont really fault wren, but he might need a class in recruiting and salesmanship.

wren got used and abused. i definitely do not blame furcal.

furcal is a shortstop and wanted to continue being a shortstop. so in the end game he got what he wanted.

nothing wrong with that at all.

my problem is, if the braves really wanted him they should of raised the ante.

if the braves would of offered, lets say 34 million over three years and his agents used that number to leverage the contract with the dodgers it would of been interesting.

fact is we cant make the same offers as presumed contenders.

i know there are many on here that are convinced that we are still royalty, but the reallity of it we are now a 72 win type of franchise.

we are saddled with guys like k.j. and francoeur as swing type of players.

neither of those guys will ever be cornerstone franchise guys.

we have two plus players in our everyday eight, b’macc and chipper.

if you broke down our everyday lineup vs. the brewers, pirates, or the reds, it is pretty close to a push.

gotta pay to play. we have made offers but in the end to get the desired talent we are gonna have to offer more then the other teams that are percieved to be the postseason contenders.

so in the end the one player we really wanted, peavy, did not want to come here, burnett, went to the yanks for the same money we offered, and furcal got to play short for the dodgers for the same money.

i dont see how some of this is not smilin franks fault.

note to frank, 40 million to spend use it on the players you really wanted.

if it takes going over the top do it.

if the yanks or the dodgers offer the same you are going to lose.

my take on wren is that he is playing by the general manager 101 handbook.

wake up frank, take a real risk, but for now you stkike me a someone that is very timid to go outside the box.

nothing worse then someone whining to the media when things dont go your way.

if he would of made better offers and they did not work out i would be on your side, but you have made the same offers as two teams that have better postseaon chances.

By P. Rose

December 19, 2008 12:37 AM | Link to this

He Will Block You

Heyward is a boy makin’ big noise

Playin Triple-A gonna make the big league some day

There’s no hair on his face

But there’s no space

Bobby Abreu’s not takin’ his place

He will we will block you

He will we will block you

Hanson throws a fastball hard man

Wicked slider too gonna take on the Mets some day

You know he’s our ace

It’s no disgrace

Let the dinosaurs age some other place

He will we will block you

He will we will block you

Escobar’s a damn good shortstop

Better than a washed-up choker with a DUI

Who wants a basket case

On second base?

Escy’s gonna get us back into the race

He will we will block you

He will we will block you

By C from Marietta

December 19, 2008 12:41 AM | Link to this

Time to spend money on scouting and player development. Circle the wagons and build a strong foundation again.

By Nick

December 19, 2008 12:42 AM | Link to this

uga brave=moron

Let’s see here , a douche 14 year old kid ( I hope because if you are older than that you need some therapy) comes on a blog and thinks they have all of baseball all figured out huh? You were in the room ? Listening to the discussions and you know that FW made all of this up about the Wasserman group screwing him over?

And even tho , the team President of the Braves , as well as many other agents AND GM’s have come out and said that what the agents did was unethical and wrong that it is still FW’s fault?

Run right now to the nearest sporting goods store and buy your Yankees jersey. If I see you here again , I’m sending Rosie O’donnel over to read you goodnight stories ( with release).

Good lord why do we have fans in Arkansas…

By Roper

December 19, 2008 12:47 AM | Link to this

Anybody out there an ESPN insider?

There’s an article on ESPN entitled, “Agent issues could impact Wolf.” Wouldn’t mind knowing a bit about that.

Spotts ,Where’s the funny in the box score?

By nolie

December 19, 2008 12:51 AM | Link to this

Taking it all into account. Using one of them like 90%-10% is wrong. At least it is to me. But that’s my opinion. That is the way I look at things Efrim

Thats my opinion too, though I don’t think it will always be 50-50. Each case would present a different perspective. Obviously the larger the stats size and the higher up the chain it is the more likely it is to be of help.

The Braves have had a lot of success doing it their way, from B4 some of these stats were even around. It’s human nature to stay close to what has served you well.

I’m also pretty sure that when they work stats that they are still interested in the traditional ones perhaps as much as the newer ones.If they were really into modern ones a lot they would likely be showing more interest in Dunn.

When they signed both Shef and later Drew, they talked OBP and such so I’m sure they don’t totally ignore it, but their actions have continued much in the same vein. I think Wren is more into them than John S and Bobby so over the years it will hopefully become a bigger part of their analysis.

They have always seemed to have a good handle on how their upper level prospects are likely to perform, and that’s what is most important. They have kept some who under-performed obviously, but haven’t gotten rid of very many who have really hurt, as I know that you are aware.

By Mike

December 19, 2008 12:56 AM | Link to this

Roper…

It just talks about the Braves not going after Wolf due to the fact that he is represented by the Wasserman Group (same as Furcal).

By David O'Brien

December 19, 2008 1:03 AM | Link to this

Roper, it was a few paragraphs in their rumor mill thing:

Agent issues could impact Wolf

Randy Wolf | Astros

Don’t look for a Randy Wolf signing announcement with the Atlanta Braves anytime soon, reports ESPN.com’s Jerry Crasnick.

Wolf is represented by the Arn Tellem’s Wasserman Group, which also represents shortstop Rafael Furcal. The Braves thought they were on the verge of signing Furcal earlier this week, only to watch the negotiations suddenly unravel and Furcal reach agreement on a three-year deal with the Los Angeles Dodgers.

The relationship between the Braves and agent Paul Kinzer is now so strained, one person with knowledge of the Braves’ thinking said it would be “next to impossible” for Atlanta to turn around and pursue Wolf.

By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)

December 19, 2008 1:04 AM | Link to this

Um, to put it lightly, this latest effort at SPIN on the part of David O’Brien is laughable.

Derek Lowe, Ben Sheets? Really O’Brien? REEEEAAAALLYYYY?????

I’m not buying it and neither should the blog. First it was Jake Peavy for weeks on end in blog after blog after blog after blog. Escobar was all but guaranteed to be a Padre in 2009. Then this Tazawa carrot was dangled, followed by A.J. Burnett ( I tried to tell you he would be in Yankee Pinstripes, you didn’t listen), another Japanese pitcher and finally the assertion that Furcal would almost certainly be a brave ( which I was gullible enough to believe).

I guess my message is to Dave O’Brien, STOP THE DAMN SPIN. Nobody is buying it anymore. The Braves cannot and should not be attempting to buy their way back into the playoffs. That is simply the WRONG approach.

The Braves are SPINNING, as in spinning their wheels, going nowhere fast. Our GM and Manager have spat out the foolish notion that our Braves have the ability to compete in 2009. The WIN NOW, trade the farm, damn the torpedoes philosophy is truly astonishing.

I’m sick of it. Disgusted with the thinly veiled lies to the point of being nauseated. Frank Wren isn’t to blame for not signing Furcal, but his blind charge into the left field stands in futile pursuit of the playoffs is the stuff of leather jackets with buckles in the back, followed by heavy doses of mind numbing drugs and a quit padded room.

The entire management team of Schuerholz, Wren and Cox has my vote of NO CONFIDENCE!

By David O'Brien

December 19, 2008 1:06 AM | Link to this

uga-brave: lot of times you post very insightful stuff. Your 12:33 a.m. comment was not one of those times.

Read up on the various accounts of what happened. The Braves made a considerably larger offer than the Dodgers, who had only offered two years with an option before Braves offered three with an option, at same average annual value.

When agents took Braves’ offer to Dodgers, Dodgers matched it, and Braves weren’t given an opportunity to raise the ante, as you put it. From everything I’ve heard, they weren’t given opportunity to make counter-offer after Dodgers raised their own offer Tuesday.

Or are you saying Braves should have offered both more years and a higher average annual salary than the Dodgers from the get-go, just assuming they (Braves) wouldn’t be given opportunity to make counter-offer if Dodgers sweetened their own proposal?

That’s not generally how you negotiate, is it? If you believe you can get him with a three-year, $30 mill offer with a vesting option, why would you start with a three-year, $34 mill offer?

By spotts

December 19, 2008 1:07 AM | Link to this

Roper - Corky Miller stealing home? Or is that common to you?

Or you could look at it as a matchup of worst backup catchers….Pratt vs. Corky.

By nolie

December 19, 2008 1:08 AM | Link to this

I’m no sabermetrician, but I see no objection to keeping an open mind and at least using OBP, for crissakes.

Right there with ya man. Efrim

I’m not really saying that they don’t consider it at all guys. .Just that they are one of the more conservative users.I’m gonna drop this cause it is likely coming on stronger than I mean it to, from the repitition. Sometimes I pound things to death as I’m sure some here are aware. LOL.

By winterville

December 19, 2008 1:12 AM | Link to this

Nick

uga-brave holds the blog down every night. He is no youngster or moron. You need to cool your jets and show some respect rook.

By Pooh on Lou

December 19, 2008 1:13 AM | Link to this

Treasurer Paulson

Just can’t trust you to keep your word can we Lou?

By David O'Brien

December 19, 2008 1:19 AM | Link to this

I guess my message is to Dave O’Brien, STOP THE DAMN SPIN. Nobody is buying it anymore. The Braves cannot and should not be attempting to buy their way back into the playoffs. That is simply the WRONG approach.

The Braves are SPINNING, as in spinning their wheels, going nowhere fast. Our GM and Manager have spat out the foolish notion that our Braves have the ability to compete in 2009. The WIN NOW, trade the farm, damn the torpedoes philosophy is truly astonishing.Coach

No, what’s astonishing is that you can view what the Braves have done so far, including refuse to trade any of their top prospects (Hanson, Heyward, Freeman, Teheran, etc) as a trade-the-farm, dam-the-torpedoes philosophy. That, Coach, is truly astonishing.

Because it’s ME saying they should trade for Dye. NOT the Braves. They’re the ones reluctant or flat-out refusing to do it, or to include Hanson to get Peavy, etc.

Coach, you went on to state: “I’m sick of it. Disgusted with the thinly veiled lies to the point of being nauseated. Frank Wren isn’t to blame for not signing Furcal, but his blind charge into the left field stands in futile pursuit of the playoffs is the stuff of leather jackets with buckles in the back, followed by heavy doses of mind numbing drugs and a quit padded room.”

I’m going to turn off the music, step away from the blog and just try to comprehend what the hell you meant with all that. Because honestly, I’m at a loss.

By Johnny B

December 19, 2008 1:22 AM | Link to this

Greetings all!

DOB do you think the Braves might take a look at Penny or Mulder?

I realize they both have had injury issues and that is the last thing this team needs…That being said they both have had success in the past and one would think they could be had for a short term, incentive laden contract.

At one time both were considered top shelf until injured. If either could regain their form they could a bargain find…seems the Braves have had some past success in re acclimation projects.

Just a thought!

By Wayne in Utah

December 19, 2008 1:26 AM | Link to this

uga This time, you are off base. As DOB explained it, this was a basic set-up on the part of Raffy and his agents to get him back to LA.

Can’t prove it in a court of law, but I would bet good money if you could see into the hearts of Furcal and Kinzer, you would see a plan to get the Dodgers off the dime (2 year offer).

They pulled out when they thought they were competing against the A’s and a guaranteed 4 year deal. After Furcal nixed that deal, THEN the Braves offer of 3 years plus an option surfaced, and I am sure the Dodgers thought they could handle something similar.

If you look at the two offers, the Dodgers actually offered 3 million more total (Braves were NOT given a chance to up the ante, remember the Braves made their offer of 3 years plus, knowing that Furcal had turned down the A’s). And if you look at the vesting requirements, the Braves requirement is for 132 games, I believe and LA’s is for 600 plate appearances. I think the Braves 10 million might be more realistically attainable than the Dodgers 13 million in year 4.

Hey, it’s OK to be mistaken now and again. My better half tells me that I am usually mistaken on much….

:-)

By Wayne in Utah

December 19, 2008 1:36 AM | Link to this

Don’t know for sure, but my guess is that unless something blossoms in the next day or so, I think we can guess that no moves will be made in the next week to 10 days, due to the Christmas Holidays.

I could be wrong, but I hope Frank and his guys takes a few days off, and gets away from all this crap.

Start again in 10 days with a fresh outlook, and lets get “re-started”.

No Dunn, no Burrell. Probably no Abreu. Unless he can be had for lesser prospects, no Dye.

I am not sure of the Orlando brothers. I think I heard they are asking for the farm, AND the house in the city. I don’t know if either would be a good addition. I just haven’t studied it.

I like Ankiel, if he can be had reasonably. Definitely no KJ for Ankiel, unless a REAL good prospect comes along w/ Ankiel.

Chances are that whatever moves are made, will be out of left-field (unintentional funny).

I am ok with a reclammation project, so long as he doesn’t cost much. (Penny, Mulder, Prior) I really don’t know a lot about where these guys are along the healing process.

By uga-brave

December 19, 2008 1:38 AM | Link to this

winterville,

thanks for having my back.

DOB,

so if the braves fax a offer sheet of 30 million over 3 years, and the dodgers match that can they not make a counter offer?

not that wren should have, but could they?

yo nick, go back to the tech or falcons blog. this blog is probably over your head.

DOB,

hearing real good things about mickey rourke in THE WRESTLER.

no nick, it is not about hulk hogan, please try to keep up.

By Wayne in Utah

December 19, 2008 1:46 AM | Link to this

What is the story on O Hudson’s defense? (counting on some of my saber-friends to come through for me)

He hasn’t been much of a base stealing threat, but could he be a leadoff guy? Decent average, and an OBP of .345 or his career, with a .433 SLG.

What is he asking for? I say offer him 8 million for 4 years, and see if he bites???

By ccrider

December 19, 2008 1:54 AM | Link to this

Honestly, The people on the blog today giving up on 2009. The season is not lost! Many ways to compete are left, they just are a little higher risk. One that might work: Offer 1 year $13 million to Randy Johnson(we need a lefty starter against our division) short term risk. Offer 2 years with a 3rd year vesting option(Number of innings Pitched) $13 mil to Ben Sheets. Sign Jim Edmonds $4 Mil to platoon with Diaz in left. Sign Rocco Baldelli 1 year $4 mil with incentives and an option, to platoon with Schafer in Centerfield. If, Franceour hits around 20 HRs, this outfield should produce 60+ HRs. Smoltz, Johnson, Sheets, Jurrjens, Vazquez, Glavine: with Hanson, Morton, Medlin, Reyes and Redmond at AAA in Gwinnett in case of injury or breakdown. Oh, and yes the numbers would work. $106 million depending on cost of Smoltz and Glavine that I estimate at $15 together.

By Nick

December 19, 2008 1:55 AM | Link to this

uga

Number one i went to film school , Aranofsky directed the Wrestler about a broken down former star turned journeyman starring Mickey Rourke in a probable oscar nominated performance ( saw it already ).

Number 2, I don’t care what you hold down around here . Even DOB called you out on your juvenile sounding post as you were making statements counter to all of the available evidence. It didn’t sound like the opinion of a logical person who actually cared about his team.

Number 3 , I am an Auburn and Saints fan.( so maybe I am just familiar with dissapointment) I only go to this one blog about the Braves. And I go to chopnation’s forum. Basaeball is the only sport worth blogging about.

Finally, have not read all the press today about how EVERY GM interviewed has stated that once an offer sheet is tendered to be signed it has always been a gentelemans agreement that the deal is done. These agents either A) decided , to hell with the Braves and the unwritten rules( maybe screwing their entire business up as other teams will be wary of them)
or B) they are so inept they didn’t keep communications up between the east coast and west coast offices( highly unlikely) Either way, this isn’t Wrens fault.

By Johnny B

December 19, 2008 1:57 AM | Link to this

WAYNE I think I read an article over on espn about Mulder progressing and trying to stretch out and find his arm “slot”.

Dude was runner up in Cy Young voting a few years back and he is a lefty….Haven’t read anything on Prior or Penny and can’t recall if they had major surgery or exactly what was going on.

I meant reclamation not re acclimation…DUH!

By Chop Chop

December 19, 2008 1:57 AM | Link to this

uga-brave,

Whatever messes the man has gotten into this offseason, I think that Frank Wren has to win before he’ll earn my trust. Nothing wrong with that standard, right?

Unlike some, I’m not going to defend the man just because he’s the GM for a team I’m a fan of. God, I’ve ripped the holy hell out of Pete Babcock, Billy Knight, Don Waddell, Rich McKay and a few others over the years. I have no confidence in the Braves’ current ownership to do whatever it takes to win. Solo owners with deep pockets are just as capable of losing for decades, but at least fans have one specific guy to make a voodoo doll out of.

The thing I’m most concerned about is that the Braves will likely see the payroll shrink for next season. If that happens (and attendance/revenues lag), Liberty Media is not going to suddenly decide to raise the payroll. These failures to sign free agents may very well be the impetus/excuse needed for a payroll reduction.

That would be just dandy.

By winterville

December 19, 2008 1:58 AM | Link to this

Anytime uga-brave

I don’t always agree with what you say and I don’t post that often but I respect your devotion to the blog. It just seems like this offseason has brought so many haters like Nick out of the woodwork. It almost makes it no fun and it is hard to enjoy the blog knowing how many people really don’t have a clue.

By Nick

December 19, 2008 1:59 AM | Link to this

Edmonds wouldn’t the worst thing we could do IF we knew that Heyward would be ready next year. He would be cheap enough that if he has a down year we wouldn’t have lost any prospects for him.

Tho I see this as something we do late if we haven’t found a LF match by mid Jan.

By Wayne in Utah

December 19, 2008 1:59 AM | Link to this

uga Not trying to answer for Dave, but as the story goes, the sheet that was fax’d over wasn’t a “what do you think about this offer” sheet, but a “this is what we have agreed on for the contract” sheet, and when it is sent, it is assumed by most MLB GM’s as good as a handshake.

So, if you thought you had a handshake deal, then the other side said, “Nah nah nah nah nah nah” We don’t have a deal after all. We took your deal to the Dodgers and they upped it.

At that point, if you had been used/screwed, whatever you want to call it, would you go back and say, OK guys, that was a good one you pulled on us, we’ll up our offer another 5 million!

Or, would you tell them to pound sand?

Furcal never wanted to come back to Atlanta, if the Dodgers would sign him. That is why he and his agents pulled this fast one on the Braves.

If the Dodgers hadn’t bitten at the bait, Raffy would be a Brave now. (maybe)

By Nick

December 19, 2008 1:59 AM | Link to this

Oh and by next year on Heyward I mean 2010, my bad.

By uga-brave

December 19, 2008 2:01 AM | Link to this

what up wayne,

i know the everday crusading man is a snowboarder, but you as a

utah native and goodwill embassador to the great state of utah needs to remind everybody that park city aint bad, BUT ALTA IS GREAT.

sorry DOB, alta is a skiers mtn.

alta is awesome. been 4 years since we have been there but it and vail were always my favorites.

then of course that was when i thought all my friends wives would let them do our thing every year.

aint it funny when the group was say 14, then it went to 10. then 7, and when the group got smaller we went to whistler.

then it was five, damn the poker games were not as much fun.

i was the last holdout. got married in punta cana in april. sure miss those president day ski trips.

IS there any better character actor then phiilp seymour hoffman?

watched charlies wilson’s war on hbo and he pretty much dominated every scene.

By Wayne in Utah

December 19, 2008 2:06 AM | Link to this

cc I am ok with some of those moves. Would Randy Johnson long for home after he got his 300th win though?

I do like Edmonds, and he might be amenable to a platoon situation.

What is the story on Baldelli? I thought he had that weird disease, but did I see something that contradicted that a couple of days ago??

Your deal would work, so long as we had some luck. Just like last year, when we depended on a lot of question marks.

By Nick

December 19, 2008 2:12 AM | Link to this

Chop Chop

I am only defending FW because he hasn’t done anything IMO , to merit being trashed. Believe You, Me , if he does something like trade Escobar ,Boyer, Gorkys, Locke, and whom the hell ever for somebody like Snell ( who I like but not at that price) You’d hear me raisin hell too! The ownership is a whole different critter completely tho…. All I can say about them , is AT LEAST they are actually raising payroll a little bit and not cutting it every eyar like Time Warner did! This is the first offseason since Ted sold them , that i am actually enthusiastic we might put something in our in file instead of our out file.

I still say , withhold judgement on FW until he either A) does something really , really dumb, or B) spring training comes. That’s not to much to ask is it ?

Oh and by the way uga, i didn’t see all of the Wrestler , just a 20 minute preview at a film festival ( it did look really good tho and a real comeback type performance from Rourke ( moreso than Sin City as he carries the footage that I saw)

My apologies for being azzey. No hard feelings?

By uga-brave

December 19, 2008 2:13 AM | Link to this

nick,

it is all good. i never pick blog fights.

you have a opininion and i have a opininion, no worries.

now if you want to talk about the ten year treasury and why it is yielding close to 2%, i might rattle your cage.

so as a auburn fan, what do you think of bobby louder, or his good friend yella man?

By Nick

December 19, 2008 2:15 AM | Link to this

Wayne in Utah

i think that Baldelli’s disease was changed from a Mitochondrial Syndrome ( no cure potentially fatal) to something else which is treatable to the effect of making him suitable for full time play. Now , once again tho, how much of this is agents talking him up? ( I guess a physical and an interview with his Dr’s would clear that up )

By Wayne in Utah

December 19, 2008 2:17 AM | Link to this

uga I am stuck in Pocatello (not literally, but anytime you are in Poky, you feel stuck) and it is cold as heck. Wind is howling tonight. Motel room is warm though.

You probably know more about ski/boarding resorts than I do. 2 of my sons (the other has a bum foot, and can’t do that kinda stuff) snowboard. I haven’t ski’d in 25 years, at least. It was always too darned expensive, and my wife has had knee troubles, so we just never got into it.

My 16 year old likes whichever place he can get a cheap ticket to.

I love my family dearly, but family commitments makes it hard to do some things.

I still haven’t gotten my wife a Christmas present yet. What do you get the lady who already has most everything. I am not into jewelry, as I have done that in the past, and she ends up putting it in a drawer about 6 months later.

Gotta help me out folks!!!

Nick I suspect there might be a lot of bargains around mid to late February, and into March for pitching and OF help.

By Dallas

December 19, 2008 2:22 AM | Link to this

It seems as though people who are frustrated with the blog, would figure out to quit coming here for info if they are upset with it. I think our current president said it best when he said, “Fool me once, shame on… shame on you. Fool me- you can’t get fooled again.” I think some of the residents of the blog should take this to heart. If you don’t like the blog, we don’t care about your opinion- just leave.

By BA

December 19, 2008 2:22 AM | Link to this

“Backstabbers” by the O’Jays?! You’re a damn genius, DOB! Too cool…

By uga-brave

December 19, 2008 2:26 AM | Link to this

chop chop,

good post. at some point there has to be accountability, right?

bay area steve, this time three whiskeys, what the heck it is the holliday season.

By Wayne in Utah

December 19, 2008 2:27 AM | Link to this

uga

Hey, I am not worried about the economy or my disappearing portfolio. I am normally a conservative person, with aggressive investments (that I have lost 40-45% this year).

The talking heads tell me that after the Messiah comes on board, all will be well. I am certain that will be the case.

Catch you folks later…..

:-)

By Wayne in Utah

December 19, 2008 2:29 AM | Link to this

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss….

By Ron Roberts

December 19, 2008 2:32 AM | Link to this

I notice Tellem doesn’t even mention the TERM SHEET. Why’s that, I wonder? Don’t believe, for a MINUTE, that team GM’s didn’t notice that omission.

By ccrider

December 19, 2008 2:32 AM | Link to this

Wayne in Utah: Something like this would, with a little luck, give us a chance to compete. Esco, KJ, Chip, Edmonds, McCann, Kotchman, Franceour,Schafer against Righthanders. Esco, Prado, Chipper, Baldelli, Diaz, Franceour, Ross(sometimes), Kotchman against Lefthanders. Though the rotation would be good and deep but injury prone, we would have 20 miles down the road, ready and capable reserves. Our bullpen is deep: Gonzo, Soriano, Moylan,(maybe)- Ohman, Acosta, Campillo, Logan, Boyer,O’Flaherty Bennett, Carlyle, Marek, Valdez, Stockman and even Medlin if needed. At this point all we can ask is to compete, No sure thing, but a good chance and the best thing no long term commitments financially.

By Johnny B

December 19, 2008 2:33 AM | Link to this

WAYNE Have you considered a “day spa” type membership?

Women love the pampering and special treatment they receive at least my wife does!

Just be wary of any male masseuse with a name like “Geoffra”….Long story! LOL!

By ccrider

December 19, 2008 2:35 AM | Link to this

Wayne in Utah: Oh! I forgot the best part_ NO PROSPECTS TRADED and only a 2nd round draft choice lost for signing Sheets!

By braves n dawgs

December 19, 2008 2:39 AM | Link to this

It is really disheartening to see everyone trying to crucify Wren over the way this off season has gone, when there is no indication that he isn’t doing everything in his power to improve the Braves now AND for the future. People who post on this blog seem to think that Wren sets the budget, portraying him as some cheap@$$ who won’t give Burnett $90 mill, Furcal $35 mill, Tex $200 mill. For the last time people, FRANK WREN DOES NOT SET THE BUDGET. He has a price range that he has to work within. So lay off.

I have a number of issues with the way the Furcal situation played out. I am not entirely sure who’s to blame here, Wren/Braves or Kinzer/Furcal, but I think it comes down to one question: Do other GMs in MLB consider the act of sending a “Term Sheet” to be as sacred/binding/official as the Braves do? I have heard that the Braves consider it to be like gold, a gentleman’s agreement. You can’t ask a free agent to negotiate by your rules, but you can certainly ask and expect them to play by league rules. I would be curious to know how revered term sheets are in other club houses.

Lastly, I have to say that I am really upset at Scheurholz for publicly saying that the Braves will not negotiate in the future with any player Kinzer represents. Even if this is the case you cannot say so publicly, and certainly not in the blunt manner Scheurholz did. He should have said, “This experience has left a bad taste in our mouth, and I’m not sure how it will affect our ability to negotiate with Mr. Kinzer in the future.” Scheurholz showed his hand, and came across like an 8 year old boy whining about getting uninvited to a birthday party. You have to be able to keep your cool in this business, and I don’t think making those comments public was anywhere close to the right way to address what happened. Keep in mind, I understand why he is furious/disgusted. I just think not playing your hand publicly is an important part of being a GM/President.

By mr baseball

December 19, 2008 2:43 AM | Link to this

uga-brave:

Despite all the crapola that’s been heaped on the Braves the past few weeks, the team is better off right now than it was at the end of the season. And if Wren can recover from his three swings and misses and do something marginally intelligent, the team will be better in the long run than it would have been if he had managed a few hits.

Trading Escobar & prospects for Peavy was too high a price. Burnett is not worth the $ the Braves offered him, and will soon make the Yankees regret their decision. The money the Braves offered Furcal can be put to better uses, but Wren has to make that decision, and who knows which direction he’s going to take.

The Vazquez trade should improve the starting rotation significantly, but there isn’t much left to spend the money on other than Lowe, whose agent is going to demand way too much to pitch for someone other than the Red Sox. There could be some trade possibilities, but that will probably require the team to sign someone who makes a current starter expendable. My pick is Kotchman, but I seriously doubt it’s going to happen.

The woe is the Braves cry that has been filling the blog up the past few days is way premature. There are a bunch of ifs that have to occur for this team to contend, but none of them are as remote as what it took for the Rockies and Rays to reach the series the last 2 years.

A return to form by Francouer, positive contributions from 2 of the team’s young starters and reasonably good health in the bullpen will put the team in position to contend next season, regardless what Wren does between now and opening day. They might not be as good as the Phillies or Cubs, but the teams next in line in the NL (Mets, Cards, Astros, Brewers) are in no better shape than this team is.

I know that people on this blog are totally fixated on what happens with the Braves, but there are a lot of teams that are in much worse shape at this point of the off-season than the Braves are. Maybe not as publicly humiliated, but certainly in rougher shape from a roster standpoint.

One concern I have is that the Braves may be intent on dealing Escobar, which will be a mistake unless Wren has a few fancy moves up his sleeve, something that doesn’t seem very likely considering what has transpired the last few weeks.

It’s still a long way to opening day and a lot can happen between now and then. On the bright side, things have nowhere to go but up, but I think I heard some experts saying the same thing recently about the economy.

By BA

December 19, 2008 2:50 AM | Link to this

It’s a stretch to blame Wren for much of this stuff. Towers kept asking for more, trying to jack our farm (you know, the one that DOB rightly said is finally healthy). Nipples Burnett has a crazy old lady (God bless him, don’t we all) that won’t fly. Not Wren’s fault.

Furcal’s agents make a dirtbag move, not Wren’s fault. They offered Burnett and Furcal small fortunes, he didn’t exactly lowball anybody.

Like Johnny B said, what about Penny? Lowe? Look, it’s getting late at the proverbial bar, and pretty soon the only girls left will be the fat chicks. What about Orlando Hudson, if we’re going to be moving people around anyway?

By uga-brave

December 19, 2008 3:07 AM | Link to this

wayne,

you ever heard the line write two letters?

one that says, blame everyhing on your predecessors.

the other one tells your replacement to write two letters?

never said wren was doing all he could but i think he is lacking in certain accumen.

keep it out of the press. pretty hard to do in this time, with the exchange of news but i think he is learning a lesson.

i somewhat feel for him, but i think he overestimated his hand.

he definitely is aware of this club’s weaknesses, but i think he should of gone all in on what he wanted.

instead of raising, he called.

THERE were other pieces to move.

heyward and hanson are untouchable no doubt, but everyone else in the system should of been out there.

to get a peavy or even a harrang you gotta give something up.

graveyard shift is over.

options expirations today.

By Nick

December 19, 2008 3:36 AM | Link to this

uga

Don’t get me started on Louder ( my dad went to svhool with him , and said he was a jerk then too).

Ever since the Iron Bowl Jetgate thing , he has been waiting for Tuberville to have a losing season so he could run him off.

That’s fine , we will see who’s laughing when Auburn goes into it’s version of Alabamas last 9 years ( since they ran Stallings off). I see 5 coaches in 7 years in our future…sigh… ( while Tuberville will prolly end up coaching some small team up to contention again.)

Chop Chop

I agree , come late Feburary , there may be guys like Edmonds to be had for low $$$ ( among others) I would also love to sign Mulder to a heavily incentive laced deal that is a lo risk /high reward type thing . What’s another $1,000,000 and it has a higher upside then that stupid Tanyon Sturtz debacle!!!

By TheAntiMe

December 19, 2008 3:41 AM | Link to this

I still think the Braves are going to add a reliable, if unspectacular, starter before the start of the 2009 season. If Tommy Hanson keeps mowing them down for Gwinnett in his first couple of months of 2009, then I would not be surprised to seem him called-up to join the Atlanta rotation the first time a starter goes on the DL, possibly in late May or early June. This would also leave the Braves some financial room to sign a productive outfield bat in Adam Dunn or Jermaine Dye.

“What they do!” Good call, DOB, on the classic O’Jays tune. It is quite fitting for this most recent blog. You also could have used another classic song from that era - Shaft by the recently departed Issac Hayes. (More so from the song name as opposed to the song lyrics.)

By Nick

December 19, 2008 3:43 AM | Link to this

Mr Baseball

Big girls need luvin too :-)

By Nocturnal Owl

December 19, 2008 3:56 AM | Link to this

Nick Wait did i see that right? You first bad mouth a regular((uga-brave) and then counter with a weak comment like adding Edmonds? Ha! I guess you must be thrilled with the new coach at Auburn…

Only 107 days and 16 hours to first pitch opening day! I need baseball in my blood.

Sheets or Lowe? hmm

By Nick

December 19, 2008 4:38 AM | Link to this

Edmonds batted with an .883 OPS against righties last year. Diaz bats pretty close to that against lefties. The platoon in LF would be a good stopgap until 2010 when there are better outfield options if Heyward isn’t ready.

IF we are unable to find a guy worth paying real$$$ to , I don’t think Edmonds is a bad bargain option at all come mid January early Feb.

Plus , i didn’t know he was a regular , and I apologized.

Heck , the two would prolly hit around 25 HR’s and cost around $7.5 mill combined. That’s a better bargain than Abreu or Burrell!

By Serbok

December 19, 2008 4:56 AM | Link to this

Nice to see the Blog~ is still Churning? I check back with you guys~now and again~ Mostly read~ To Me~ Lowe is THE way to gowe! Excellent article DOB! DOB? I vaguely remember a “~ahem’ (Column?’) you wrote~ Thatif I read it correctly~ Stated You ARE downloading music now???? LOL If so~ Way To Gowe!!! I want Lowe on the Braves! Just very convenient~? ~ to download music from Itunes~ or wherever? Excellent choice of song~Yesterday? I havent heard that song~~~in way tooooooo long! Think~ I’m off to itunes store~ for a “Blast fron The Past?” Itll cost me a buck!!!!! Thats a friggin Steal~~~~~

By LivininAL

December 19, 2008 6:33 AM | Link to this

I totally understand the Brave’s nation displeasure with the Furcal mess, but for Schuerholz to refuse to deal with them in the future could be self defeating. After refusing to deal with Boras earlier, we begin to limit our possibilities at our own expense. Call them what they are and move on, screw’em back in the future! Get Sheets and Dye for 2 years and get on with it! We are gonna get a few breaks this season that did not happen last year. This past year’s awful experience for all our developing guys KJ, Esco, French, Kotch, McCann are gonna make them better this year. Im hoping last year lights a fire for this year! Go Braves!..& Best wishes to any team opposing the Yankees!

By Bravo Nam

December 19, 2008 7:07 AM | Link to this

Good song choice, DOB.

There are some bloody dimwits on this blog, no doubt about it. Some of you numbskulls would criticise FW and JS no matter what they did.

JS has always held his cards close to his chest. Gives little away to the point of almost being boring. Typically cool and collected. So, today he loses it a bit and some of you are lambasting him. Maybe he did go overboard a bit, but for him to shove his usual MO aside and come out firing, standing by his man FW, is commendable. Sometimes you need to use strong language and not leave anyone guessing…there comes a point when enough is enough. JS went into bat for FW, the team, the fans and all who are sick and tired of unethical practices and the almighty dollar ruling people’s behaviour…I was proud of him today; he gave Bravos fans a voice today, coz he said the things we’ve been wanting everyone else to hear…you can either stand by JS as he stood by us, or you can slink out the backdoor and be a PC apologist.

By JR

December 19, 2008 7:31 AM | Link to this

I definitely say when Furcal comes to bat we need to buzz the tower with something about 95 mph. And all this crap Tellem said about the CBA and that the Braves can’t deny their player is a load of BS, if the Braves don’t want to sign any of these players repped by this agency no where it says we have to. We can listen to there brief song and dance and tell them don’t let the door knob hit ya where the good Lord split ya

By Tomas

December 19, 2008 7:36 AM | Link to this

DOB,

I think it would be a mistake to trade for Dye. First off the whitesox would demand a high price, and why trade for him when you can just sign a similar outfielder in the FA market. I think that you have realized the Braves won’t win next year. The Mets and Phillies have awesome teams, and the Braves once again depend on John Smoltz. Even the Marlins have a better team. I agree that they should try to stay competitive, but not by trading more players in the farm.

Pitching wise, there isn’t anything they can do. They can either sign Sheets, and take a big risk, or sign Kawakami, and hope he is more effective than Vazques. They need to resign Smoltz, and hope he is a medical marble. They wont be able to sign Derek Lowe, simply because, the Braves wont over pay him(its a very similar situation to AJ).

They need to improve their lineup. After missing out in signing AJ, and trading for Peavy. They have the funds, and should try to sign either Bobby Abreu, or Orlando Hudson. I’d try to sign Abreu, simply because he wasn’t offered arb, and wont affect the Braves draft picks.

By ShawnB

December 19, 2008 7:37 AM | Link to this

uga brave Speaking of hearing good things about The Wrestler, I’m hearing good things about Marisa Tome (don’t think that’s spelled right but having a brain freeze on the proper way at the moment) in that movie. That is one 43 year old woman that ain’t showing her age.

By Beowulf

December 19, 2008 7:43 AM | Link to this

The most reprehensible action taken by Kinzer/Furcal in this whole melee is that after the Dodgers matched, the Braves were NOT EVEN GIVEN an opportunity to counter the offer. If they had, then assumably Wren would have told them to take the term sheet and stick it where the sun don’t shine. But despite what the agents say, actions speak louder than words. The Braves were NEVER the destination intended for Furcal, they were just used - again I assume because it was easiest to pull off with us because he had played here before and was popular. Nobody would have believed it if they had tried this with say - the Rangers or something. But they played on a false emotional “connection” that Furcal had to Atlanta, and it worked for them. Kudos, buttheads! BTW, no love for Furcal to be found in ATL now. He should think about just selling his house here.

By JakeDSnake

December 19, 2008 7:44 AM | Link to this

I say the Braves should go full speed ahead in signing Sheets. Even if he doesn’t beat anyone else, at least he won’t be pitching against the Braves and beating them like a drum, as he has for years. It seemed at times that the only team he could beat were the Braves and the Braves never seem to have a chance against him.

By Chopdawg

December 19, 2008 7:56 AM | Link to this

DOB, I’m wondering how the Braves originally arrived at the $ and term length of their offer to Furcal.

I believe they created their offer based on Furcal’s previous contract, contracts players similar in age/perceived ability had recently signed, their own best guesses as to what he & his agent might consider to be the best offer they could expect, etc.

Do you think, in addition to these factors, that the Braves had any knowledge at all of what had been previously offered to Furcal by the Dodgers, the A’s, or anyone else?

I’m definitely not suggesting the Braves played any dirty tricks on anybody—like Kinzer & the Dodgers played on them—but I’m thinking there might be a generally accepted line somewhere in the process of player negotiations, regarding the spreading of information about what other teams have already offered, and I’m wondering where that line is usually drawn.

Obviously Kinzer, Furcal, & LA went waaaay across that line in this case (altho I do agree with Mark Bradley, we just didn’t need to pay Fookie that kind of money, unless this signing was part of a separate trade for somebody like Peavy).

By NGB

December 19, 2008 7:57 AM | Link to this

ARN JUST LOOKS SLEAZY

By Irene

December 19, 2008 8:01 AM | Link to this

No. 1 priority Wren: SIGN SMOLTZ & GLAVINE ASAP!!!!!!! NOW!!!! You want an ace:SMOLTZ IS THE ONLY ONE YOU HAVE OR WILL GET. NOW’S THE TIME TO FINALLY MAKE THE RIGHT MOVE. SIGN SMOLTZ BEFORE ANOTHER MISTAKE IS MADE. I just don’t get it: you were willing to sign people that were risky: Peavy, Burnett, Furcal; but you WILL NOT sign Smoltzie or Glavine. You saw Smoltz pitch pain free, but still won’t sign him. If you lose him it will be the biggest mistake of your life. LOSING FURCAL WASN’T YOUR FAULT. THAT WAS LOWDOWN,UNDERHANDED & DIRTY. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEEEEEASE SIGN SMOLTZ AND GLAVINE BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE. Or are you just making them believe you want them back. Smoltz has showed he can pitch. Headlines have said he was healthy: DO SOMETHING NOW OR REGRET IT LATER. After the way Furcal has done, nobody might not want to sign with the Braves at all. I hope I am very very wrong. SMOLTZ, GLAVINE and what you have right now may be the team this year. I hope what happened with the injuries this past season won’t happen again in 2009, but there are no guarentees, are there. You are relying on Hanson & the others in the farm system, but again no guarentees there either. They may get to Atlanta, start playing & injuries could do the same to them like it did this season. Don’t say it couldn’t happen. It very well could. So what it comes right down to is Smoltz & Glavine & what is already in place may be what you have to rely on.

By Ray

December 19, 2008 8:08 AM | Link to this

Interesting comments from Mr. Tellem. He spoke a lot of words but didn’t say anything. He sounded like a politcian. Maybe he wants the senate seat from Illinois. He sounded qualified. I wonder what Furcal’s take is deep down. Does he feel like his people crossed the line with the Braves and is a bit ticked off or is he, hey I got my money and I am in LA where I want to be. Or is he just drinking the kool-aid of his agents and believing their spin?

By Mark

December 19, 2008 8:10 AM | Link to this

DOB,

Frank Wren has got to feel the pressure now of just getting one piece of the equation he set out for in the beginning. That piece needs to be a starting pitcher and with very few “possible” aces left he needs to get going.

Frank Wren has stated I believe on the Bill Shanks show he would rather acquire through free agency. Now if he wants a pitcher with dominant stuff thats going to be either Ben Sheets or Derek Lowe. In my opinion we would have to go the Ben Sheets route. Derek Lowe would take too long to acquire and to much money being a Boras guy. Also, Lowe is 36, even though he hasnt been to the DL its getting to be that time. Glavine hadnt been to the DL before this year and he went 2 or 3 times. I’m just asking dont you believe he needs to act with a sense of urgeny, I know its not even January yet, but the pitching out there is scarce and only a matter of time before they are gone.

By Buzz Capra

December 19, 2008 8:13 AM | Link to this

Dave, I think Kinzer is a snake. He is a local guy who has feasted off the Braves minor league system for years, especially our latin players. It is almost as if he had some connection in the system feeding him players. And then he does this to them. He may have shot himself in the foot. I hope he hit an artery.

By raw

December 19, 2008 8:21 AM | Link to this

Dave:

More about the cow races in Between? I live within 3 miles of the place and have never heard of this. BBQ, sweet tea and a pretty girl in cut-off blue jeans! What more could a country boy ask for!

By car3boogie

December 19, 2008 8:24 AM | Link to this

Just read the STATEMENT from Tellum…What an A*******HOLE…… isn’t there a song about him…”Soulja Boy Tellum”

By Kris in NC

December 19, 2008 8:25 AM | Link to this

Yes, JS has always kept his cards close to the vest, never revealing what he had going in the way of deals but when this latest deal or no deal happen and the way it went down, JS finally came out, the gloves came off, he stuck up for the team.

Tellum can’t even keep the story straight. We have always known JS didn’t like Scott Boras but he never came out publicly and stated it. For him to say what he said about Tellum and his agency and let Tellum know he was doing it publicly, very unlike JS.

Frank Wren has gone out and tried to improved this team, whether it was trade for Peavy, sign both Burnett and Furcal, all 3 fell through. There are plenty of guys out there we can go for, some think the season starts next week, we got until the end of March before the 1st pitch, lets give Frank the benefit of the doubt before crucifying him.

Finally we got a president and GM of a team taking a agent and his firm to the wood shed for what has been going on for a long time, shady business practices in the world of sports. It just happened to be ours.

By mytie

December 19, 2008 8:47 AM | Link to this

I don’t feel sorry for the Braves. Every since Ted sold the team, they have been trying to win on a small budget. Not willing to pay top notch players. trading away good players. Keeping players that should be traded. Compare the talent level of the 1996 Braves to the 2008 Braves. The Braves President is unwilling to spend money to keep this team competitive. Trying to win the WS on a budget. Yeah Right…

By Efrim

December 19, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this

Ken Rosenthal’s latest column:

Braves: Back to Square One

Rafael Furcal held unique appeal for the Braves. His leadoff skills, club officials believed, would have transformed the team’s offense.

Now, with Furcal headed to the Dodgers, the Braves could acquire another second baseman if they still intend to move Kelly Johnson to left field or include him a trade.

That plan, however, no longer is as attractive.

Brian Roberts is the same type of offensive player as Furcal, but it remains doubtful the Orioles will trade him, even though his contract negotiations are at a standstill.

As for free agents, no player on the open market — not David Eckstein, not Mark Grudzielanek, not even Orlando Hudson — would have the same impact as Furcal.

Hudson is a dynamic player, but not a leadoff man. Eckstein’s .351 career on-base percentage is only one point lower than Furcal’s, but he no longer is a stolen-base threat.

No, the Braves wanted Furcal and only Furcal. Without him, they’re back where they started, looking for a quality starting pitcher and run-producing outfielder.

The Braves are not seriously interested in free-agent right-hander Derek Lowe, and Wren’s pledge to avoid further negotiations with Furcal’s agents seemingly would eliminate lefty Randy Wolf.

Japanese right-hander Kenshin Kawakami remains a possibility, though some teams fear that he wants the same deal that the Dodgers gave Hiroki Kuroda last season — three years, $35.3 million.

Righties Ben Sheets and Jon Garland and lefties Oliver Perez and Andy Pettitte are among the other free-agent starters still available. The Braves’ preference for a young pitcher with upside only can be satisfied through a trade.

By tommy la sorta

December 19, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this

Why is no one faulting the Dodgers? JS step up and call them out too. They are just as guilty as those scumbag agents. Lambasting the agents is pointless the will just scurry into their hole until you forget about them… take on the Dodgers in the media if you want any justice!

By ???

December 19, 2008 9:05 AM | Link to this

Just couldn’t resist getting that one last jab in at STH? Whether you realize it or not DOB, you continue live up to the low expectations you’ve earned. The blog crashed, so find a way to insert your waery, can’t rest til I get em back wit. I know DOB it bothers you that your work is not credible anymore. Hence, paragraph two you start one of your typical beneath the surface rants at those who call into question your lack of productivity. Oh yeah, DOB, you end it with another slight about music and the warning you send out to STH. Just cant take your criticism like a man. The problem is,you have been exposed. Everyone knows it. You are more for entertainment than for pertenant information on our Braves. So continue to wax on about the good ol days at Woodstock and we will continue to demand better. Heard the Beatles are getting back together?

By Edward Teach

December 19, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this

P. Rose is my favorite blog member.

By Don

December 19, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this

DOB - Why is Furcal getting so little heat from the media and the Braves on this debacle? When it gets to the ultimate deciding party, isn’t he the one that should be held responsible for reneging? I assume he could have kaboshed the whole Dodget counteroffer thing.

By ben

December 19, 2008 9:19 AM | Link to this

Kinzer is just trying to cover his own tracks. He knows what he did is unethical. He just worries about making a dollar and the heck with everybody else.

By Doc Holiday

December 19, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this

mytie

Totally agree.

Why arent the Braves trying to sign Orlando Hudson or David Eckstein???

Is it just me or it looks like the Braves have not intentions on getting a clean up hitter?

We cant use Mc as a cleanup hitter……..or are we gonna go without cleanup hitter every 5th day?

By albert

December 19, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this

I guess with one more strikeout on the negotiation front Frank Wren will qualify to wear the dreaded “Golden Sombrero”. It’s enough to make his hair turn gray! - wait a minute, it already is! Seriously, with $40 million to spend, $11.5 million spent on Javier Vasquez, that leaves $28+ million available. What happens if he can’t find enough takers to spend it all by opening day? Has this ever happened before?

By Dan

December 19, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this

Dave,

Very simple question. Why do you advocate trading for Jermaine Dye? We would have to surrender a few highly regarded prospects and still pay him 11 million per for the next two years.

Is that really much better than signing Dunn, Burrell, or Abreu to a 2-3 year deal while keeping all propects?

By DAP

December 19, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this

joe m NEGATIVE 15 for Abreu in 2008, meaning his defense allowed the opposing team to score 15 more runs than an absolutely average defensive player would have. He is not a good defender; he is statistically worse than Dunn and Burrell.

do these defensive stats genralize the outfield positions, or do they measure them seperatly? because dunn played a little RF a 1B but mostly LF, and manny and burrell were only LF, so is it possible that abreu’s -15 would be a little better in left field than it was in right? i dont know much about defensive stats, so im just asking. does any body know?

By Doc Holiday

December 19, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

DON

You are also right…….Furcal looked as bad or even worse than his agent for that matter.

By Thrillhouse44

December 19, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this

???, what is the best concert you’ve ever seen?

By JEB

December 19, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

Arn Tellum’s remarks sound like a politician! Loaded with crap covered with a diplomatic suit.

Note the following:

1. There was never an agreement reached between Rafael Furcal and the Atlanta Braves. What about the statement “We’re good - send a term sheet”?

2. In fact, the Braves were fully aware that Furcal was not prepared to make a decision but had requested an opportunity to sleep on it, before deciding. Kinzer TOLD Furcal to sleep on it, Furcal did not request that.

3. Moreover, the Baseball rules which all agents and teams operate under are clear that no deal exists between a player and a team unless and until: (i) there is a signed and executed player agreement or; (ii) the Player’s Union and the Commissioner’s office have otherwise confirmed the deal. Neither occurred here. Sure, a contract was not signed, but what about the Term Sheet, that is requested to be signed, until the contract is penned.

4. Furcal ultimately decided to accept the Dodgers’ offer, taking into consideration a number of factors the most important of which was his desire to continue playing short-stop and not make the position change to second base that the Braves were requiring. Was it just about the position switch, or the no trade clause

5. Losing out on an all-star player like Furcal is always disappointing, and we understand the Braves’ frustration with the outcome of this negotiation, but it does not change in any way the fact that we conducted ourselves with integrity and complied with all rules of major league baseball throughout this process. Why would they say “integrity” when they knew they were acting out of cahracter requesting the Term Sheet?

6. Our primary obligation is to serve our clients best interests, and we will continue to do so in accordance with all relevant rules governing MLB negotiations and the utmost integrity. Here is that word “integrity” again CYA

7. If it serves our clients we will continue to present opportunities to the Braves, which in accordance with the rules governing Major League Baseball, the Braves must entertain. We hope that once emotions have subsided, the Braves will act in a manner consistent with not only their obligations under the Collective Bargaining Agreement and The National Labor Relations Act, but also the best interests of the franchise. In short, we would not want this incident to color their better judgment. This is manipulation to say the Braves are going against the rules - requiring them to “Watch your step - we will have a legal suit”

Just as Boras is “known” to inflate his numbers, in order to bid one team against another, Tellum & Kinzer are practicing the same activity. The difference is Kinzer got himself a Term Sheet to use as proof he was not inflating his numbers!

By JEB

December 19, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

Arn Tellum’s remarks sound like a politician! Loaded with crap covered with a diplomatic suit.

Note the following:

1. There was never an agreement reached between Rafael Furcal and the Atlanta Braves. What about the statement “We’re good - send a term sheet”?

2. In fact, the Braves were fully aware that Furcal was not prepared to make a decision but had requested an opportunity to sleep on it, before deciding. Kinzer TOLD Furcal to sleep on it, Furcal did not request that.

3. Moreover, the Baseball rules which all agents and teams operate under are clear that no deal exists between a player and a team unless and until: (i) there is a signed and executed player agreement or; (ii) the Player’s Union and the Commissioner’s office have otherwise confirmed the deal. Neither occurred here. Sure, a contract was not signed, but what about the Term Sheet, that is requested to be signed, until the contract is penned.

4. Furcal ultimately decided to accept the Dodgers’ offer, taking into consideration a number of factors the most important of which was his desire to continue playing short-stop and not make the position change to second base that the Braves were requiring. Was it just about the position switch, or the no trade clause

5. Losing out on an all-star player like Furcal is always disappointing, and we understand the Braves’ frustration with the outcome of this negotiation, but it does not change in any way the fact that we conducted ourselves with integrity and complied with all rules of major league baseball throughout this process. Why would they say “integrity” when they knew they were acting out of cahracter requesting the Term Sheet?

6. Our primary obligation is to serve our clients best interests, and we will continue to do so in accordance with all relevant rules governing MLB negotiations and the utmost integrity. Here is that word “integrity” again CYA

7. If it serves our clients we will continue to present opportunities to the Braves, which in accordance with the rules governing Major League Baseball, the Braves must entertain. We hope that once emotions have subsided, the Braves will act in a manner consistent with not only their obligations under the Collective Bargaining Agreement and The National Labor Relations Act, but also the best interests of the franchise. In short, we would not want this incident to color their better judgment. This is manipulation to say the Braves are going against the rules - requiring them to “Watch your step - we will have a legal suit”

Just as Boras is “known” to inflate his numbers, in order to bid one team against another, Tellum & Kinzer are practicing the same activity. The difference is Kinzer got himself a Term Sheet to use as proof he was not inflating his numbers!

By DAP

December 19, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this

doc holliday Why arent the Braves trying to sign Orlando Hudson or David Eckstein???

Is it just me or it looks like the Braves have not intentions on getting a clean up hitter?

im sure i just misunderstand you, but it almost sounds like you are proposing hudson or eskstien for a cleanup hitter?

anyways, the braves dont need a middle infielder. they really dont. they need an outfielder who can hit in the middle of thier order. abreu still seems like the best choice to me.

By Dadgum

December 19, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this

Mr. Baseball…your early morning 2:43 post was right on the money. The Braves are not going to get any return on their investment by bringing in other players specifically to play LF or 2nd. Certainly not better than what they have in place. The Braves already have their positions pretty solidly filled.

2009 is going to be the year the Braves farm system gets involved. I can see 2 new players starting and making great strides. Shafer in CF and Prado at 2nd. KJ should have a great year in LF. Obviously Francouer has to turn the tide and he should have a solid year. All other positions are set.

I would not spend 8-10 mil on a free agent bat to play subpar defense. That is a bad tradeoff. Nobody out there that you can get will make any difference, on a short term rental, to how the Braves will finish this year. If you really want a good showing in 2009 it won’t be because of teh position players. You gotta get the pitching at least competitive and pray that Smoltz is healthy and can be signed.

Sure 2009 is going to be tough but the Braves must inject youth in the starting 9. They have no choice and 2009 is a good year to do just that. Forget Burrell, Dye, Dunn, Abreu, et al. They are a bunch of defenseless stiffs that will require too much money to acquire and will get you no better in the standings than without them.

Rock on…..oh, Peter Moylan….fire your agent NOW!

By GT

December 19, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

Unless the Wasserman group represents older-than-average, under performing, past-their-prime pitchers, I don’t think they have a lot to worry about by losing out on any offers from the Braves.

Sorry to be cynical, but who do the Braves really think they are that they can afford not to deal with a certain agency? No one may have liked the way the Furcal situation went down, but its over now. The Braves biggest problem for a long time has been looking backward instead of forward.

Especially now, the Braves can’t afford to be taking any more players off the market by issuing ultimatums and refusing to deal with certain agents.

By car3boogie

December 19, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this

Don, I agree with you about Furcal. It was ultimately his decision. I am still just wondering How Moylan feels about all this.

By TrueBlueBravesFan

December 19, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this

“If it serves our clients we will continue to present opportunities to the Braves, which in accordance with the rules governing Major League Baseball, the Braves must entertain.”

I think I can reasonably say that the whole Braves front office will be pretty entertained….In fact they’ll probably be laughing their head off

By Wayne in Utah

December 19, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

Moylan shouldn’t be a concern at this time. He has a few years before he becomes a FA. A lot can happen between now and then.

I know a lot of my friends are pushing weak defensive outfielders as the answer to our needs, but I certainly hope we steer clear of those guys (Abreu included w/ Burrell and Dunn)

By pills91

December 19, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this

Not sure if this has been posted…

But, with this new money the Braves have, and, with the continued search for “mediocre” talents at this point, why not jump into the Texeira deal?

He is expensive now, but, will get cheaper as the contract goes. There is no better player, or surer thing for the money, on the market.

The best way to counter average pitching is to score lots of runs. Texeira can help us more than a Lowe or Sheets can.

By BO......

December 19, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

Maybe Furcal knows hes not 100%, good luck Dodgers. “I have never said that before”

By Efrim

December 19, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this

I think if you could get Burrell or Dunn on a two year deal around the same 11.5 million dollar annual salary that Jermaine Dye commands, you do it, rather than trade top prospects for one season of Dye. And unless the price has come down on Dye, it will most likely cost something like one of Schafer/Hernandez and one of Morton/Reyes. I could be very wrong. But I did see that Williams said Homer Bailey alone, was not enough. Although Bailey’s stock has fallen, he still has the upside of at least a #3 starter.

By Piece

December 19, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

DOB

Why does there appear to be no interest in Bobby Abreu? I am very surprised at the dearth of posts regarding the possibility of the Braves signing him. In fact. Is it just that he’s a left handed bat, and they’re looking for a righty? or is it his defense (of which I honestly know little)?

Perhaps someone else could follow up here too.

By 18 Wheels of Love

December 19, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this

Arn Tellem kind of looks like Dale Doback from the movie ‘Step Brothers’. I wonder if he plays the drums?

By rlpmetro

December 19, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this

pills91

The Braves have already tried the Texeira experiment. It didn’t work. They have NOT tried the Manny Ramirez experiment. I would say if they were going to abandon all hope to add another ace, they will more likely go the Ramirez rout than the Texeira rout.

By stamper

December 19, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

pills91, concerning your 10:02 am post… NO. Braves will not make a move for Teixeira. And Teixeira, as we have already seen, is not enough to help us win. He’s a second half player. A player like that may help us win games in August and September, but if we’re eliminated in July (as was the case this past season) it really doesn’t matter. Additionally, Teixeira strikes me as a player who feasts on mediocre pitching. I don’t recall him performing like a superstar. While his numbers were impressive at season’s end, i find them to be incredibly misleading. Maybe that’s inaccurate, but that’s how i remember him and his performance.

By Dale

December 19, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

No one wants to play for the Braves anymore because the organization is not a serious contender anymore. The Braves have been on the decline ever since Ted Turner lost them. Until a truly interested owner, who is willing to spend what it takes to win, buys the Braves, free agents will not want to play here.

By DAP

December 19, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

GT i agree with you. i would have expressed all the outrage and disappointment that the braves officials did, but i never would have said “we will not deal with that agency. ever.” because there might come a day when you really need one of their players, and then you either need to swallow your pride and deal with them even though you said you wouldnt, or, you dont get the player you really need because you drew a line in the sand.

By Lew

December 19, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this

Kris in NC-Great post at 8:25. Maybe you could teach a class for the clueless, such as the very next post after yours, by mytie at 8:47, who has zero concept of what they are talking about.

It makes me crazy when people claim the Braves are unwilling to spend the bucks or are a lower tier team salary wise. We have been no lower than the top third of all teams in salary for years. No, we don’t spend the obscene amounts that the Yankees, Cubs, and Red Sox spend, but the current Braves ownership is spending in the $115 million range-not Yankees’ money, but hardly Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, or Marlins’ money either.

Wren has, as Kris mentions, tried to spend the money, but apparently we can’t give it away right now. Maybe with Bobby Cox not planning on managing into the indefinite future is part of the problem, maybe the fact we’ve been out of the running is the root cause for the lack of interest, but one thing is for sure-it ain’t because Liberty Media refuses to spend the money, or that Frank Wren is an abject failure and incompetent at his job. Anyone who thinks it is reveals themselves to be And Idiot.

By Dadgum

December 19, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

pills91….now that is really funny! You are kidding right? He will make the difference just like last time? BUt he is better now at twice the price? Exactly how? Texiera is so overpaid as it is but granted a good player. Kotchman can play a solid 1st base. We are set at 1st. Texeira need not apply. Let him get overpaid by teh Nats, Sox, O’s or whomever.

Rock on……Peter Moylan can fire his agent at any time.

By stamper

December 19, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this

the braves, if we have any intention of being remotely competitive need to sign Sheets or Lowe. However, I see Sheets going to Texas, and Lowe going to Boston. The only way we get either of those players is if we overpay them… much like what Detroit had to do in the early 2000’s. Noone wanted to play for a team that lost like 119 games or whatever it was… they ended up having to overbid for Pudge and that lot…. if i recall correctly. I see us to be in a similar situation. While we may not have lost nearly as much, we are perceived to be a franchise in disarray. The only way we’re gonna get Lowe is if offer him an insane deal. like 4 years/ 78 million or something to that ilk. and i can’t imagine us seriously considering that. And Sheets? 3 years around 13 - 15 per year at least. once again, not sure we’d go that far, either.

in the end, it very well may be Garland that ends up on our roster… and that will be an unfortunate signing - on both ends.

By DAP

December 19, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this

wayne defense is only a piece of the puzzle with a good team. the braves need a bat.

the braves have plus defense at SS, 3B, 1B, RF, CF (all of our current option are good out there) and average defense at 2B and C. dont you think we can handle a below average defensive player in LF if they can anchor our offense?

the braves have some good hitter in the lineup, but we all know that they really need a guy in there to add some muscle, to bolster it from ok to good or maybe great. we need someone who at least has a high OBP that will help extend innings and score runs in bunches.

i, for one, do believe that the braves need to try and get one of dunn, burrell, bradley, or abreu. maybe which ever one can be had for the least years is who we should get.

By Dadgum

December 19, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

Piece….that has been cussed and discussed here to death. Abreu is a stiff. Overpriced and overhyped and just possibly the worst outfielder defensively in MLB. Other than that he ain’t too bad if he can be had for say a few million to platoon similar to Norton last year. Nobody on this blog wants to see a Bobby Abreu in the starting nine.

Rock on….Moylan—fire your agent NOW.

By BO......

December 19, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

MY ? is how man players will stick with these agents. Boroas may have some new clients. Boroas is o.k. I used to not like him, but its up to the teams and players on where to play and how much. I just dont understand for the life of me the difference between 10 mill. and 15 mill. in a 5,6 year commintment. maybe a 1,2 year. i know i ma sound crazy, but happiness would be more important. just seems like these guys are deciding to sign if there is 5 dollars difference. LETS JUST GET SOME GUYS WHO WANT TO PLAY IN ATLANTA. no bidding say here it is ya or na. ( all this is from a guy who depends on jrsus for his next job) dont get me wrong Ive been blessed more than i deserve. and still havent seen 100,000 a year. Tile man in N.C. not a lawyer.

By TrueBlueBravesFan

December 19, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this

Dale

your over simplifying….the truth is no top-flight FA agent wants to play for the Braves (unless of course they have a strong local pull which obviously known of this years crop did).

The Braves will find talent to play hear the truth is that they will be good (Type B and below) but not the great (Type A) free agents. The truth is those guys either want 1 thing or the other….They want to be paid…..or they want a ring(and then they’ll be paid). The allure of the big markets isn’t just the contract money. Its the enorsements…the celebrity (which leads to even bigger endorsements and contracts).

Come on people……..Dont kid yourself…..Yes Atlanta is a big city….but its not New York, Boston, Chicago, or LA……If I was looking for either of the paid part I would have to pick one of the big market cities…especially if they;ll also have a better likely hood of getting the Bling(ring).

DOB……Do you concur?

By Dadgum

December 19, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

Lew..aren’t we suppose to be buying IDIOT meters for this blog? By the dozen?

Rock on……..Money For Nothing.

By stamper

December 19, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

DOB, while i wanted to do a top 25 list, i just couldn’t leave off some of the others listed below… so i did a top 50.

And here it is… my top 50 rock albums of the year.. 1. Fleet Foxes - Fleet Foxes 2. MGMT - Oracular Spectacular 3. Vampire Weekend – Vampire Weekend 4. TV on the Radio – Dear Science 5. The Raconteurs – Consolers of the Lonely 6. Deerhunter – Microcastle / Weird Era Cont 7. Sigur Ros - Med Sud I eyrum Vid Spilum Endalaust 8. Cut Copy – In Ghost Colours 9. British Sea Power – Do You Like Rock Music? 10. Beck – Modern Guilt 11. Black Kids – Partie Traumatic 12. Portishead – Third 13. M83 – Saturdays = Youth 14. Kings of Leon – Only By The Night 15. Ra Ra Riot – The Rhumb Lines 16. Annuals – Such Fun 17. We Are Scientists – Brain Thrust Mastery 18. The Cure – 4:13 Dream 19. Magnetic Fields – Distortion 20. Bon Iver – For Emma, Forever Ago 21. Wolf Parade – At Mount Zoomer 22. Cold War Kids – Loyalty to Loyalty 23. Death Cab for Cutie – Narrow Stairs 24. Coldplay - Viva la Vida 25. The Whigs – Mission Control 26. Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds – Dig Lazarus Dig!!! 27. What Made Milwaukee Famous – What Doesn’t Kill Us 28. Black Keys – Attack & Release 29. Cat Power – Jukebox 30. Ladytron - Velocifero 31. The Little Ones – Morning Tide 32. The Walkmen – You & Me 33. The Dears - Missiles 34. Shearwater – Rook 35. The Hold Steady – Stay Positive 36. Sun Kil Moon – April 37. She & Him – Volume One 38. Foals - Antidotes 39. My Morning Jacket – Evil Urges 40. Ray LaMontagne – Gossip in the Grain 41. Conor Oberst – Conor Oberst 42. Okkervil River – The Stand Ins 43. No Age - Nouns 44. R.E.M. - Accelerate 45. Of Montreal – Skeletal Lamping 46. Spiritualized – Songs in A & E 47. The Black Lips – Good Bad Not Evil 48. The Stills – Oceans will Rise 49. Ryan Adams - Cardinology 50. Frightened Rabbit – Midnight Organ Fight

Radiohead’s In Rainbows would be Number 1, however, it really came out at the end of 2007.

By ernesto

December 19, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this

The thing about Abreu that always bugged me was the Phillies got a lot better AFTER they traded him.

He seemed to be part of the underachieving culture they had there for awhile.

He certainly didn’t take NY to the promised land, though he put up respectable numbers.

By pills91

December 19, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this

If Texeira can’t help the Braves win, then, who really can? Tex isn’t a reach, and, will be worth every dime he gets to whoever pays him.

Even A-Rod earned the money in his contract, and, Tex doesn’t carry near the baggage that A-Rod does.

I know it isn’t going to happen. Just don’t really understand why more people aren’t calling for it, especially now that we aren’t going to be spending big bucks on a top shelf free agent pitcher.

At this point, I hope Wren doesn’t throw money at a player just to get a deal done. None of the players available are truly difference makers. I would do the Peavy deal if possible, but, that also seems highly unlikely at this point.

By Steve from OH

December 19, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this

I notice Tellem doesn’t even mention the TERM SHEET. Why’s that, I wonder? Don’t believe, for a MINUTE, that team GM’s didn’t notice that omission.

Oh yeah, that was the first thing that I noticed too. Not a single word written directly addressing the Braves’s real accusation.

Efrim, If I’m a GM, I’m avoiding Bailey like the plague. He’s a TJ or shoulder surgery waiting to happen. Plus his stuff has declined.

By sportsmandh

December 19, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this

DOB,

I would love to see Dye come back for a couple of years. I am like you and have wondered why they haven’t been pushing hard for this. I would prefer him over Ankiel, b/c we need the right handed power bat. Dye is still very good, shows no real signs of a big drop off.

What do you think it would take in a trade to get him? Also, wonder if he’d play left or right? Don’t know if they’d want to move Franceour around. Dye has played both over the years I know, but recently I think more in right.

BTW, I am against the Ankiel or Ludwick trade, b/c what I’ve read about potential trades with the Cards all say they won’t Mike Gonzalez. We need to keep Gonzalez, especially with the way the Mets have just stocked their bullpen, the Braves will have to be solid in the pen b/c there will be some tight late games. We know how well the Braves did in one run games last year. The last thing we need to do is trade away our current best reliever, even if we get Smoltz back and he pitches strong in relief they’ll still need Gonzalez too.

By JEB

December 19, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this

I think I agree with DOB, for the present Jermaine Dye is a good option for this team. He can hit, produce some power numbers, better defense in LF than RF - I’m sure! Can bat 4th, give Chipper some protection.

If the rest of the team will hit and play as they did in Sept. The offense will be set. With Schafer / Anderson in CF.

The leadoff position is still a BIG question mark. Rosenthal’s point about Brian Roberts - then moving KJ to LF is still a viable option. Settles 2 issues, lead off and LF. Only big question mark then will be who hits 4th when BMac is not playing?

I’m MORE than positive that by Spring Training Wren * co. will pull in some starting pitching. Bank on it!

By DAP

December 19, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this

dadgum Nobody on this blog wants to see a Bobby Abreu in the starting nine.

speak for yourself.

By McFann O –[zzz]

December 19, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this

Doc H. We cant use Mc as a cleanup hitter……..or are we gonna go without cleanup hitter every 5th day?

I agree. I like BMac as a #5 hitter myself. He wasn’t a bad cleanup hitter, it’s just that he can’t play everyday.

By THE BEAR

December 19, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

Furcal was part of that deal, had to be and should be pegged as a dishonest man. His agents are disgusting and dishonorable and should pay the price. And I suspect they may well see the day when a price will be extracted.

JS is right in nailing those sob’s the way he did. He left out the Dodgers who were also part of this deal. They have to be since they saw the term sheet or were told it existed. No other way would they have upped their offer.

No one including the Dodgers, agents and Furcal are without blame and I suspect JS is well aware of all of them.

Furcal’s coming down with a bad back would be poetic justice and that is very likely to happen. Being one of those who had the same type of surgery 27 years ago I can tell you the back never returns to its original strength. He WILL PAY THE PIPER AND all those with him will also suffer. It is written in the wind. Karma will again work its magic and extract its justice.

By BO......

December 19, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

Whats the big risk on Sheets, cant we get an insurance policy on him. We diddnt have to pay Hampton all that money he got. worst case insurance pays him. best case with him and Smoltz were in the play offs. we already have the Wolfs, Perezs, Garlands, I WOULD RATHER CHANCE SHEETS and MULDER.

By Efrim

December 19, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

Steve from OH

Efrim, If I’m a GM, I’m avoiding Bailey like the plague. He’s a TJ or shoulder surgery waiting to happen. Plus his stuff has declined.

You may be right. Apparently he relies on the fastball way too much and doesn’t work on his offspeed stuff. Stuff has diminished too, as you said. Hammer curve doesn’t really break anymore. Anyone ever do an analysis on his mechanics? Most of the stuff I’ve heard is from what I have read on other chats/blogs.

By Dadgum

December 19, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

Hey DAP….we would have the defense settled simply by putting Prado at 2nd and KJ in LF. That would upgrade both spots immediately and I argue that KJ in LF will be a better overall move than any overpriced move the Braves can make on the free agent market especially during this recession.

Again I wouldn’t worry about the free agent bats. The Braves must get stronger in their pitching rotation if they have any realistic shot of competing. Getting stronger bats and paying out the wazoo for them is not going to win us a significantly larger number of games especially sacrificing defense.

Young players like Hanson, Shafer, Prado, and KJ are going to make the difference this year. Time to depend on youth. They are ready. Let ‘em play and cheer hard.

Rock on….oh yeah did I mention we needed more pitching? Sign Smoltz and another #3 type.

By JW

December 19, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

You all make me laugh!! I love the Braves…but what an arrogant, pompous attitude we have developed from our Glory Years. Have we forgotten how we have shown no loyalty whatsoever to many players over the years. How we dealt Furcal at the height of his career, even though he wanted to stay. How Glavine was treated the same way and even went public with it. How we dealt Leo Mazzone without any regard to what he had done for this organization! Jermaine Dye, Grissom, Klesko…the list goes on. While the Braves Execs puff on their cigars and sit high in their skyboxes, they have proven to be those w/questionable dealings…saying one thing and doing another. No one seems to hold these guys accountable for their mismanagement and poor decision making!! What would cause us to waste money on Glavine instead of going after a solid starter last season?! That’s the Braves M.O….we always cringe from spending money on quality players and waste money on those who don’t deserve it. Here we are building up this powerhouse infeild tandem w/Furcal and Escobar - when he already had it with Renteria & Escobar!!! Just look at the numbers folks. I’m glad we got a taste of our own medicine…now…maybe we will begin to be humbled and conduct ourselves accordingly. Haven’t you wondered why an organization that so many dreamed of playing for is hard pressed to get anyone to sign?! Maybe word is out on how the Braves are the organization w/no guarantees! Bobbly is a great manager to play for - but as you gow up, beyond him…it’s pretty much dismal. Oh…and Bobby really has to begin to MANAGE and play some “small ball”, when necessary!!

By Ozzie

December 19, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

DOB Heyward and Freeman for that matter are what 19yo. Neither is a year or even two away IMHO that is just fan lust for two top prospects.

It will be more like 3yrs before Heyward is in the bigs (especially when you factor in the Braves karma of things not going to plan).

A three year deal for Dunn would not be a franchise killer and relying on JF to turn it around or blocking teenagers seems short sighted.

Worry about that when it happens. Today the Braves need to worry about a half empty stadium or worse and payroll being cut.

Diaz is a poor defender with an occasional surprise catch. He has almpst not HR power apart from batting practice.

Dunn would be a huge offensive upgrade and probably no worse than Diaz defensively.

If that doesn’t work then Milton Bradley should be given at three year deal.

The Braves OF looks horrible today and will be a power void for years b/c Heyward is not going to be hitting .400 for the Braves even when he finally gets here in 2011 or later.

The Braves cannot wait that long IMHO.

By Iron Labrum

December 19, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

• Yesterday evening we received this surprising statement from Red Sox owner John Henry:

“We met with Mr. Teixeira and were very much impressed with him. After hearing about his other offers, however, it seems clear that we are not going to be a factor.”

Michael Silverman was able to get this quote from Scott Boras as a semi-response:

“The Boston ownership was kind enough to request and travel to meet with Mark Teixeira. While it was a very positive meeting Mark was candid and advised he is in the process of making a decision and is now attempting to eliminate teams.”*

Teixeira isn’t going to the Red Sox because it probably makes more sense for Boras if he doesn’t. Just like the Sox are in on driving Tex’s price up for the Angels (and Nationals, really Stan?), they’ll be in on the bidding for Lowe. Lowe’s market will probably be hurt somewhat if the Sox give Tex a big contract. I swear Boras moves his clients around like pieces on a chess board.

I had hoped that if Tex signed in Boston, that we might at least consider Lowe. If Tex signs with the Angels, Nats or Orioles…then my guess is Lowe gets played off the Mets and signs with Boston. Though Scott has an uncanny way of getting the Yankees in on every negotiation.

It’s been mentioned here a couple of times and I’m not against touching base with Randy Johnson even though he’s 46 and a year removed from surgery. He had a great second half last year (his final game against Colorado he threw 9) and is motivated to get his 300.

2008 Post All Star Break:

5-3 2.41ERA 6.62IP/G 86IP 78K 16BB .242OppAvg

I know he’s thinking left coast, but if he’d consider the Braves, it’d probably be just a one year commitment. I am not geeked about signing O. Perez or Garland to a 3 or 4 year deal.

By Ruthless One

December 19, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

I have decided to send Furcal’s agents a Christmas gift. It is a heaping pile of dog crap with a nice bow wrapped around it. It will also contain a contract stating they must eat the crap under the Bargaining Agreement and The National Labor Relations Act.

By Greg in TN

December 19, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this

Morning gang…

It’s spin control for the (cough), professionals (cough) at the Wasserman group as they attempt to put their best foot forward after the Furcal fiasco.

And after reading Arn Tellem’s response to the bruhaha, the only thing I can think of is… excrement. Or the digital equivalent thereof. I can tell they work in condescension much like other artists work in oils or clay, it’s their true medium.

Have to say, when I saw the article about JS’s response and his defense of FW, it was a lift to my spirits. You just can’t let something of that degree sit there without a strong response, not with all of the information about the shady handling of the term sheet. IMO, the line in the sand was drawn not by the Braves, but by Tellem/Kinzer. If you let that go, expect more of the same from other agents that are just as unscrupulous as Furcal’s.

In terms of whether the Dodgers were in cahoots with Furcal’s agents, not sure if they were or weren’t, after all, if they mislead the Braves, they could have always gone to the Dodgers and not mentioned the term sheet and just represented it as the Braves’ latest offer. I do believe FW ran into a different situation in San Diego where Axelrod and Towers were clearly collaborating to some degree (and I’m not saying that’s improper, just a different situation than how I’m reading between Furcal’s minions and the Dodgers).

I do think eventually, cooler heads will prevail, but even if they do not, realistically, there are always other options out there in terms of players and agents, and I believe shutting Tellem/Kinzer out wouldn’t be as bad an idea as what others think. They’ve taken a hit to their reputation to be sure, which prompted Tellem’s face saving missive trying to downplay their dealings. It will be business as usual with Tellem/Kinzer for some GMs, however I can also see where some GMs will be wary when faxing a term sheet their way for quite some time.

By Dadgum

December 19, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this

So DAP….Abreu is slow, can’t play D, will come too expensive, might hit 10 more homers than KJ playing LF. Now exactly why would you want him in the starting nine? Just curious.

Rock on….

By 6-4-3

December 19, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this

Why not take a chance on Baldelli? He’ll probably come cheap. He runs well and can hit with some power. Plus he bats right-handed.

Maybe we can catch lightning in a bottle with him. I think it might be worth the risk at this point. What do we have to lose, as long as it’s not too expensive or long term.

By DAP

December 19, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this

ernesto The thing about Abreu that always bugged me was the Phillies got a lot better AFTER they traded him.

i noticed that too, but i think its a coincidence. 2006 was kind of a changing of the guard for philly. they traded jim thome, so ryan howard got a chance to play everyday for the first time, shane victorino got an everyday job, cole hamels got his first crack at the majors, and rollins and utley kinda hit thier prime (27 years old).

so i dont think they got better because abreu left…i think all thier young guys just came together at once.

and yes, abreu has strung together alot of good seasons in his career. he doesnt miss many games, and is very consistent. based on his stats, he should really be considered one of the elite players in the game. i hope the braves can get him for a relatively small price, and from what ive read, that will be doable.

By sam

December 19, 2008 11:05 AM | Link to this

Hey Stamper do you have a list of the top 10 video games of 2008? You dork!

By Steve from OH

December 19, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this

Efrim, here ya go. I wish they had a third-base side view of him too, because I see some inverted W there too, which isn’t good.

By Cecil34

December 19, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this

DOB touched upon something that I think needs further elaboration:

“The other thing is, if there’s any sort of thought within the organization — and I’m just thinking aloud here, not anything whatsoever that I’ve heard indicated by any Braves people — that they probably aren’t going to be able to win the division or wild card in 2009”

DOB goes on to say that no one in the organization has told him this.

I do believe that the major players in the front office have sat down and charted a long-term course for ramping up competitiveness, and that includes not making unneccesary trades or involving themselves with less-than-healthy players(like Sheets) that won’t do anything for the long term.

They know Sheets is damaged goods.

I think the Tex trade had an intangible positive that came out of it that was never examined in discussions of who we lost, etc. and that is that Wren is determined to not delve into major “rent-a-player” transactions in the future.

I also think that they know (and have frankly discussed) that if they do not acquire the ace and power hitter they seek, then they will not:

a) win the division,

b) most likely will not challenge for a wild card slot.

There is no question that they will concede 2009 to get our hot minor leaguers in position to take over the line-up holes in 2010.

And you know what? That is the correct approach and I totally agree with it.

Hey, I can go watch Gwinnett in ‘09 and return to watch a competitive Braves club at Turner in 2010. Not a problem.

At least I know that Wren is not a fool and is not going to trade our prospects for marginal or non-healthy talent.

Sometimes you have to pick your battles (2009) and live to fight another day (2010).

By car3boogie

December 19, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this

DOB Thanks for telling it like it is. It has been a great blog all year and will continue, I do not post often but read several times daily year round… Great Job…..and sorry about the “Soulja Boy Tellum” Music reference……Have a Merry Christmas and A happy New Year

By Lew

December 19, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this

Pills91-You mean so Tex can take us back to the playoffs like he did in 07 and 08? You mean so he can do this at just slightly less than twice what it cost for him to take us to the playoffs in 07 and 08?

Exactly how many times do we need to miss the playoffs with Teixeira on the team for you to realize that he is NOT the answer-especially at $20+ million a year?

By DAP

December 19, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this

dadgum we would have the defense settled simply by putting Prado at 2nd and KJ in LF.

but im not really worried about the defense, remember? im more worried about our offense not being explosive enough. adding prado’s bat to the lineup everyday wont cut it. i would rather keep prado as a utility guy.

if the braves could have really pumped up the pitching…maybe have gotten peavy and burnett or something like that, id would say patch together the offense, we will score enough. but that didnt happen. an explosive offense can compensate a little for a pitching staff that just ok. weve seen that alot in our own division the last three years.

ozzie DOB Heyward and Freeman for that matter are what 19yo. Neither is a year or even two away IMHO

heyward ended the season at myrtle beach, and its conceivable that he will be in AA by the end of this year. he can spend 2010 in AA for a full year, maybe a little bit in AAA. my bet is that he is a september call up in 2010 at best, and at worst he wins a job in spring training for 2011.

for freeman, i would imagine that he would go to myrtle beach this year as well. (i dont know, but he just finished a very good full season in rome) and he could follow the same path i just outlined for heyward.

but i really believe heyward will be here in 2011 playing full time.

by the way, i agree, the braves should sign or trade for an outfielder they can have for 2 or 3 years.

By David O'Brien

December 19, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this

DOB Heyward and Freeman for that matter are what 19yo. Neither is a year or even two away IMHO that is just fan lust for two top prospects.

It will be more like 3yrs before Heyward is in the bigs (especially when you factor in the Braves karma of things not going to planCecil

Not sure when Heyward will be here, but keep this in mind: Chipper Jones was 21 when he got to the majors. So was Jeff Francoeur. And Brian McCann. Andruw Jones was 19 (20 in his first full season).

By Nocturnal Owl

December 19, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this

Hey McFann,

:) How do you feel at Mac going to WBC?

He sounds excited..“I’m pretty pumped up,” McCann said. “This is something I’ve always wanted to do. Ever since the WBC started, I’ve always wanted a chance to play and here it is.”

“I’m just excited to have the chance to share a locker room with guys like Derek Jeter,” McCann said. “It’s something I’ll cherish for the rest of my life.” Cherish a Yankee..not sure about that..lol

By Big Ken

December 19, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this

Maybe it’s me but it looks like over the past several years the braves or should I say upper level management really don’t have a clue. You see dumb trade after dumb trade. I think since Ted T left things have slowly gone to Hell. It’s like the brave are scared to spend money on good players but we will give good money to broken down wrecks (Mike Hampton etc). I just don’t understand. Somebody help me with all of this please….

By Kelly's Big Johnson

December 19, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

Note to blog from Kelly’s Big Johnson

Guys, we’ve won with alot less.

Escobar > Blauser KJ > Lemke, unless its October Kotchman > Sid Bream Chipper > Pendleton McCann > Berryhill

The list goes on. Don’t get me started on some of the bullpens that we’ve fielded.

Morton and Hanson might not be the next Glavine, Smoltz, but, hey, they may. They’ll at least be better than Merker, Leibrandt. And we won with them.

Gorkys, Schafer, Heyward, etc. will be better than Otis Nixon, Ron Gant, or Lonnie Smith. Give them a little time. We’ll win with them, too.

We have a competitive team as it stands right now, even with our current situation in the outfield.

World Series contenders, maybe not. Competitive, absolutely.

I would have said that the Tampa Bay Devil Rays wouldn’t field a competitive team last year. Marlins - ha, I’ve always barely considered them competitive. Rockies, hell nos. Yet, they have all been playoff contenders lately.

Let’s forget about Raffy and move on. Sign another pitcher (Sheets, maybe?) and outfielder (Baldelli, maybe?).

I have too much faith in the Braves, Frank Wren, and $40 million dollars worth of unspent payroll to “blow it up” or say “this is a lost cause” or “fire Frank Wren” or any else of this nonsense.

Have patience. It is still just December 19.

By Mark

December 19, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

DOB,

Chipper going to the WBC kind of concerns me. I did read however that he will mainly be the DH but he can’t even put a close to full season with the Braves, I just see this as possibly shortening his season even more. I know he has earned the right to do it, but shouldn’t he think about the Braves first?? Does anyone in the Braves organization have concerns about this?

By David O'Brien

December 19, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this

Why is Furcal getting so little heat from the media and the Braves on this debacle? When it gets to the ultimate deciding party, isn’t he the one that should be held responsible for reneging? Don

Yes, you’re right: Furcal is in charge of his own career, and ultimately he went where he wanted to go. But I don’t think Furcal would’ve wanted his agent to go so far as to get the term sheet, etc., and make them (player and agent) look this bad. And as for “heat” from media, most of what’s been written has been quotes from Schuerholz and Wren blasting the agent, and from other GMs (anonymously) who’ve concurred with Wren that you don’t take the offer to another team after youve gotten to the term-sheet stage of negotiations….

By Tomahawkin

December 19, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this

D.O.B If This Blog was taken on scene at a bar, I’d think there would be some rumbling going on…It Might be time to bump some “LIL Jon” Up in here, because it seem like everyone is in a P’d off mood after the Furcal scenario, especially Coach

(Oh Yea, D.O.B. Gotta co-sign on your Backstabbers song on the blog)

DAP I’m all for going after Abreu, only thing is his range is worse than Sheffield’s when he was here…

Seriously, I’d rather have Dunn, at least he will put a..ses in the seats

JW Are U a Braves Fan…? If so, I guess you mean to say the other side of Karma has hit the Braves F.O.

Baseball Is a Business Bro, Alot of the crap that happened during the glory years were business decisions that go wit the territory…

Gotta Go back to watching New York Undercover on Youtube…

By Dan

December 19, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this

DOB

Why do you think that trading for Dye would be good for the Braves. He is fairly expensive and would cost prospects (probably highly regarded). Why not try to get Dunn, Abreu, or Burrell for 3 years?

I really hope the Braves focus on Lowe and Oliver Perez for pitching.

By Iron Labrum

December 19, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this

Abreu seems to be getting old fast. Even the Yankees recognize that and they’ve never shown a whole lot of fear when it comes to geriatric talent. More importantly for us….he’s not a right-handed bat. I still don’t think Frenchy’s going to be able to separate Chipper and McCann.

Milton Bradley has never played three seasons for the same team and has played more than 100 games in a season just three times. 141 being his max.

As far as Burrell goes, I got my fill of all or nothing/hot and cold hitting with Andruw….and Burrell will be defensive liability. Who wants to sign a FA that ends up on the bench late in the game for defense.

Gotta be very judicious with our kids (I’d much rather sign than trade)..but I gotta admit, Dye is looking better and better.

By DAP

December 19, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this

dadgum So DAP….Abreu is slow, can’t play D, will come too expensive, might hit 10 more homers than KJ playing LF. Now exactly why would you want him in the starting nine? Just curious.

because KJ will probably hit 15 more homers than prado will playing 2nd base.

because abreu is NOT slow. he will steal at least 20 bases for us. (his lowest total in a full year was 19 SB, 10 years ago.)

because his D is just as good as any other LF options we have (except maybe bradley) and we need a bat more than we need great defense in LF, since we have at least average defenders at every other position, and plus defenders at most positions.

because he wont be expensive for what he can give. this is from a jerry crasnik article. Said a National League official: “He’s going to end up somewhere and be fine. But it’s not going to be for anywhere near the money he’s been making or he thinks he should make.” from what ive heard, abreu might make $12mil for three years, which isnt cheap, but its not terrible for what he does. i would rather not do the 3 years, but the $12mil is ok, based on what the braves have to spend, and thier needs.

and finally, and this one isnt a direct rebut to anything you said, but our team need a bat. period. what we have is not good enough. we need to improve somehow. it doesnt HAVE to be abreu. but the braves need to get somebody. dunn, burrell, bradley, dye, if they want to do a trade would be fine. somebody.

By AceCometh

December 19, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this

Arn Obviously knowns nothing about our legandary Southern Hospitality. A man is only worth the strength of his word. And if Raffy wanted to sleep on it, then why didn’t he? The moment LA had a better offer, he jumped ship. In the real business world, if a business receives a bid from a contractor, it is illegal for that business to share it with other contractors. It’s a shame MLB doesn’t have a similar rule.

In short: before Arn threatens to tarnish the Braves image, he needs to think more seriously about tarnishing his own.

By caz1158

December 19, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this

DOB- me,thinking long term as a brave fan. I would rather see the team hold onto its money & build for the future. The offseason game plan did’nt pan out,but thats no reason to just sign someone for the sake of saying you did something. Spend wisley,not just because its available!!! (is’nt that how the country got into the mess it’s in?). With the farm system doing its job,as a fan I’d much rather see home grown tallent. And by the way Great job GM & Prez!!!! Some sports agents really are scum,and we just uncovered another set!

By DAP

December 19, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this

tomohawkin dunn would be fine. the only thing about him is that he doesnt hit lefties as well as he does righties. abreu is pretty even either way. dunn will probably also cost more for longer… but he sure will get on base and hit homers.

By McFann O –[zzz]

December 19, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this

N Owl—

I have some serious mixed emotions about this. From a somewhat selfish standpoint, I’m bummed—because I’ve been really excited to see him (with his new physique) play in Spring Training.

On the other hand, I know he’s excited, and I’m happy for him. Maybe they’ll put a WBC game on TV and I’ll get to see part of it—course, that’ll prob’ly be the game Mauer catches.

But like I said last night, Spring Training’s not gonna be the same. I was looking forward to seeing him play, to another game with him in the booth with Joe and Boog, more in-game interviews…

Oh well…I guess there’ll be 2010 ST for that…

By David O'Brien

December 19, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this

Just couldn’t resist getting that one last jab in at STH? Whether you realize it or not DOB, you continue live up to the low expectations you’ve earned…. I know DOB it bothers you that your work is not credible anymore. Hence, paragraph two you start one of your typical beneath the surface rants at those who call into question your lack of productivity. Oh yeah, DOB, you end it with another slight about music and the warning you send out to STH. Just cant take your criticism like a man. The problem is,you have been exposed. Everyone knows it. You are more for entertainment than for pertenant information on our Braves. So continue to wax on about the good ol days at Woodstock and we will continue to demand better. ???

First, Mr. Question Mark, let me say, I loved your work with the Mysterians, particularly “96 Tears,” which would make plenty of people’s lists of 100 greatest rock songs.

Secondly, I wasn’t at Woodstock, but if I’d been 16 or 26 instead of 6 at the time (1969) I probably would’ve tried to get up there for that show.

Finally, as for providing entertainment rather than pertinent Braves information, well, hey, glad to serve in at least some capacity. With that in mind, get a load of the future “Ginger” in this burlesque scene from a a movie, which unfortunately wasn’t R-rated

(Man, you gotta love Ginger … er, Natalie Wood.)

By Mitchell

December 19, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this

When exactly did Oliver Perez win all those games against us? I don’t remember him winning a one in the last year at least. Maybe some of those were in ‘06.

I don’t know who these agents and (Padres) team owners think they are.

“Oh, why would we, the Padres, want to trade for Escobar, you lost 90 games, if he was so good maybe you should have won more?”

Guess what? You’re the Padres. You SUCK. You’re the worst team in baseball. 14 in a row, read it and weap. Have they even ever won two in a row?

Furcal’s agent: “Rafi, you don’t want to play for the Braves, they’re losers.” Yeah, you should go to back to the NL West where you only have to play 500 and win the last 5 games of the season to make the playoffs.

Who do these teams think they are? If we were in the West in ‘07 we would have had a good chance to be in the playoffs. We definitely would have won the NL Central in ‘07.

There’s no guarantee you’re going to the World Series with any team. The Yankees aren’t even going to the playoffs. CC and AJ aren’t going to make any damn difference to the Yankees. They’re still gonna be a 3rd place team.

I agree with Mark Bradley. Why trade a 25 year old for 31 (or 33, who knows?) year old Rafael Furcal who hasn’t lived up to his potential. Keep Yunel, Kelly, Prado, Omar, Kotchman etc. If they all play like they were the last two months of the season I think we’ll be alright. Add Diaz to that, if he’s healthy hopefully (is he still with the team? I think, I haven’t been keeping up), see what happens. All Jeff needs to do is play a third better than last year, Chipper and Brian should be hermetically sealed in plastic wrap until opening day, if possible (look into that). Jurrjens is the man, Gonzo is the Cobra, Soriano better bring it in ‘09, Moylan in June maybe, Ohman can do his lame Harry Caray impression, Smoltz who knows? Hudson middle of September… we’re a 78 win team easily.

Unless everybody gets injured again but, I don’t know, I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom.

I’m also with Bradley on the trade of Flowers for Vasquez. I don’t have a problem with Vasquez but why do we keep getting rid of all our back-up catchers? I think Brayan Pena was ten times better than Sammons and Corky Miller. That’s meant to be a compliment.

That’s all I got.

By Chuck James was solid until the 6th!! (Formerly Steve-O)

December 19, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this

Beowulf

I co-sign your statement on Furcal dude.

By David O'Brien

December 19, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this

6-4-3: Despite Baldelli’s recently updated and improved diagnosis (they now say his disease is treatable with meds and he hopes to be able to play more), I think the Braves view him as still having too many question marks to pursue as the run-producer they’re looking for.

By P. Rose

December 19, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this

Money

Money, get away.

Got a shortstop for less pay and we’re okay.

Kinzer - what an a$$!

Grabbed that cash with both hands and make a dash.

Fubar, so bizzare, Dodgers’ wet dream,

What a pathetic baseball team!

Money, contracts.

C.C., A.J., already tired acts.

Steinbrenner - what a twit!

Don’t give me that New York, New York bulls*.

C.C.’s a high-priority fat boy billionaire’s pet

Where George can park his Lear jet.

Money, it’s a crime.

San Diego wasted the Atlanta Braves’ time.

Peavy, so they say

Is the best young pitcher out there today.

But if you ask for a deal they try to steal your frickin’ farm away.

By BravesFanInRockies

December 19, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this

DOB,

In case this is the last blog post before your trip, be safe and have fun.

Don’t know when you’re getting out here, but it’s supposed to be COLD in Denver through the weekend (highs in the teens, lows below zero) and then go back to normal by Tuesday or so.

Temps in the high country will probably be in the 20s or 30s middle of next week, which should be excellent skiing weather.

By David O'Brien

December 19, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this

Tomahawkin, I think you’d like the Johnny “Guitar” Watson anthology CD I’m playing right now….

By Lew

December 19, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this

JW-You are yet another of the clueless. Dude, we didn’t deal Furcal-he left for a $13 mil a year contract with the Dodgers-we weren’t even given a chance (from reports) to match the deal.

Leo was not dealt. He left of his own volition for a much larger contract in Baltimore with his Best Friend who was managing the Orioles at the time-he did nothing of merit while in Baltimore, either-in case you hadn’t noticed.

As for Dye (traded after his rookie season), Grissom (never had an OBP over .323 after leaving the Braves, nor did he hit as high a BA ever again) and Klesko (three decent seasons after leaving and then faded drastically-we won all those 3 seasons after he left, as well), the Brass and ownership are not even the same as when those players were with the team.

As for spending money on pitching last year-we didn’t have the money for anyone more than Glavine, which is why we got him (still had that ridiculous Hampton contract and Tex not producing for his $12.5 mil the first half of the season). We still had over $100 million spent on the Braves in 08-which was more than the World Championship Phillies spent on their team.

I think maybe you need one of the aforementioned meters.

By crap-wheelie

December 19, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this

DOB:

It sounds like the Red Sox have told Scott Boras to pound sand over Texeira. Speculation is that they believe Boras has been lying to them about other teams wanting to offer Tex more money or more years. Do you think the Braves’ experience with Tellem/Kinzer/Furcal may lead more teams to tell agents that they can’t just kite up the cost of the player based on phantom offers, that they have to negotiate in good faith?

By Slow Reader

December 19, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this

Maybe touched on already, but have the Dodgers taken heat for their part?

By Tomahawkin

December 19, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this

DAP

Tru That, about Dunn being an more expensive option, but I Think Abreu goes to the Mets…If that happens then our options are Dunn And Burrell, and I do not want Burrell in the “A”…

That really p….s me off that the braves F.O. didn’t go hard after Ibanez…We are gonna pay for that…

I’d Say if after mid Janurary, and we don’t land a big boy, I’d rather use 09 as a rebuilding year…

By Mitchell

December 19, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this

I agree with Kelly’s Big Johnson, and why wouldn’t I?

I don’t know, I don’t know why I said that.

But it’s all about the NL East:

We still own the Mets no matter what they do, we’re starting to own the Marlins (a lil’ bit) for the first time ever, we could have won half of those games against the Phillies (I think we have a little unfinished business with the World Champs from that last series)… all we have to do is worry about the Nats. We should just focus our attention on beating the shizzle out of those guys. And if they get Teixeira, all the better. He sucks.

By rammerjammer

December 19, 2008 11:51 AM |