AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2008 > November > 24 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USHanson tops off an overwhelming year
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Sure, we knew that Tommy Hanson could dominate Single-A and Double-A hitters, after a 2008 season in which the Braves’ top-rated pitching prospect went 11-5 with a 2.41 ERA in 138 innings between Myrtle Beach and Misssissippi.
Dude had 163 strikeouts and 52 walks in 138 innings and led minor league starters with a .175 opponents’ average. Oh, and threw a 14-strikeout no-hitter in Double-A.
But what would the 6-foot-6 right-hander do against prospects of his ilk out in the Arizona Fall League, where many teams send their most promising youngsters, some of whom have already had a cup of coffee in the majors?
Well, Hanson was about as dominant against them as he was against the poor kids down at Myrtle Beach.
I mean, they told me out in Arizona a couple weeks ago that they rarely, if ever, had seen such man-against-boys performances as the ones that Hanson turned in most every start for the Mesa Solar Sox, with a dozen or so scouts sitting in the stands behind home plate armed with radar guns.
Hanson went 5-0 with a 0.63 ERA in seven regular-season AFL starts, then gave up one run and three hits in five innings of Saturday’s championship game before his bullpen blew a lead in Mesa’s loss to the Phoenix Desert Dogs.
Including the title game, Hanson finished 5-0 with a 0.74 ERA and stunning 64 strikeouts in 36-2/3 innings, with only 13 hits, 10 walks and three earned runs allowed.
Please keep in mind he was facing fairly advanced young hitters only a step away from the big leagues, not Class-A and Double-A lineups that might have included three or four hitters with little chance of ever seeing a major league field.
He overwhelmed them to such a degree that Hanson could win the Arizona Fall League MVP award. No pitcher has ever won that honor, I’m told. It’ll be announced in a litte over a week at the Winter Meetings in Vegas.
Everyone who saw him out got a good idea quickly as to why the Braves refused to trade him to San Diego in a Jake Peavy deal, and why they consider Hanson off-limits altogether. Him and big outfielder Jason Heyward might well be the most talented prospects the Braves have developed since Andruw Jones. Seriously.
I think we’ll see Hanson by mid-summer in Atlanta, and it wouldn’t shock me if he makes a strong bid for an opening day rotation spot this spring in big-league camp at Dark Star. But we’ll see.
A lot of that probably depends on what the Braves are able to do this winter, if they’re able to acquire the two proven starters they seek, on top of whether Mike Hampton and/or Tom Glavine and/or John Smoltz returns, though Smoltz might be headed to the bullpen if he’s back.
For now, thought I’d share with you a few parts of my interview with Hanson from last month’s trip out to Arizona, stuff that didn’t get in my story or on the blog previously.
Tommy Hanson on…
The confidence and maturity that Mesa (and Myrtle Beach) manager Rocket Wheeler said he’s seen in him since Hanson first was promoted from Rome to Myrtle in 2007 and got knocked around a bit initially:
“Yeah, exactly. I was a little bit unsure last year [2007]. But after I got hit around a little bit, I just said, forget it, I’m just going to go out and pitch and do what I’ve always done. And it seems to be working out.”
On starting the 2008 season with five no-hit innings with 13 strikeouts in Myrtle’s season opener:
“I didn’t know if I was capable of doing that. That was just one of those days where everything was working out. I never would have guessed I would have done that. But that was just one of those times … pretty much all year this year I’ve been real confident with all my pitches.”
On how far he’s come in one year’s time:
“Well, with all my pitches I feel like I can throw them for strikes when I need to. Last year I wasn’t real consistent, so I’d say when it comes to that, I’ve come a long ways. Now really all I’m working on is my changeup, trying to get that down and just keep doing what I’m doing.”
On the slider he broke out for the first time in a couple of years during his June no-hitter for for Mississippi:
“I was working on it a little before that game, and that was the game where [Mississippi pitching coach Derek] Bothello said, ‘You know what, just throw it whenever you feel like throwing it.’ So that was really the first time they let me have my slider back and let me throw it whenever I wanted to.
“I threw it quite a bit [in that game]. I threw my slider quite a bit growing up; I didn’t really throw a curveball. I just felt a lot more comfortable with my slider at the time. I feel good with curveball now, too, but it just feels like [the slider] is an easier pitch to throw. It’s not a feel pitch, you throw it just like your fastball.”
So that’s been your “out” pitch lately?
“I don’t know. Different days it’s either my curveball or my slider. Just depends. But I’d say the most consistent one is my slider.”
On handling all the attention he’s getting:
“I’m out here just to work on stuff. I’m not going to let that bother me or affect me, what I do each day when I go out there. Every day I come out here I just want to get better, so I can pitch in the major leagues. I mean, what I’m doing out here. I know I’ve got to get better, so that’s what my focus is.”
Has your success this year made you even hungrier to get to the majors?
“Yeah, I just feel closer. Just a couple of little things I want to work on. I feel closer, so I’m ready to just keep working hard and hopefully it happens soon.”
On Braves GM Frank Wren telling him, in person out in Arizona, that he wouldn’t be traded:
“It’s definitely a good feeling, him telling me that. I signed with the Braves, I want to stay with the Braves. So it’s good that they want me to stay here, too. So it’s definitely a good feeling. [Wren] pulled me aside and told me that. It was definitely good to hear.”
What’s been the highlight of the year for him?
“I’d say the no-hitter, but I’d also say winning the league with the team in Missisippi. Because they started out not doing too hot [Hanson was promoted there in May]. I kind of got to watch a team go from, you know, where everybody was down, to the stage everybody was getting confidence, and then everybody was playing well and we ended up winning the league.
“Personal [high point] was throwing that no-hitter, but overall, winning the league was definitely a highlight.”
On his chances of making the big-league club out of spring training:
“I don’t know. That’s kind of up to them. The goal for me is always to pitch in Atlanta; it’s not to pitch at a certain level in the minor leagues. So whenever they think I’m ready, hopefully I’ll be ready and go from there.”
On how nice it was not having to face Mesa catcher Tyler Flowers in the Fall League. Flowers, another Braves prospect, led the league with 12 homers.
[Hanson laughs.]”Definitely. I mean, you saw what Flowers did in batting practice. He has unreal power. He hits the crap out of the ball, and I love him behind the plate. He does a great job behind the plate. It’s like we’re always on the same page, and he’s a huge target back there, too, so it kind of makes it look a little closer.”
Leaving them out there: Don’t know if anyone referred to this stat previously, but I just noticed it in a Peter Gammons file from a week or two back and it brought home a point we’ve made previously.
It wasn’t just that Jeff Francoeur had such a disappointing season, it was the fact that he was left to hit in the middle of the order for so long and left in the lineup day after day after day. The end result was a remarkable number of wasted scoring opportunities.
And here’s the stat and spells it out. Gammons got it from Rob Tracy at the Elias Sports Bureau.
Hitters who came to bat with the most runners on base: 1. Justin Morneau, 558; 2. Garrett Atkins, 515; 3. David Wright, 508; 4. Mark Teixeira; 5. Carlos Beltran, .498; 6. Jeff Francoeur, 494; 7. Ryan Howard, 483; 8. Carlos Delgado, 480.
So I took that stat and went and looked at what all those guys hit with runners on base and how many RBI they finished with in 2008.
The envelope, please:
Morneau: .330 with runners on, 129 RBI.
Atkins: .256, 99 RBI.
Wright: .290, 124 RBI.
Teixeira: .303, 121 RBI.
Beltran: .283, 112 RBI.
Francoeur: .203, 71 RBI.
Howard: .309, 146 RBI.
Delgado: .285, 115 RBI.
Wow. That’s just ugly.
Reiterating, Braves need OF power: It’s been a while (seems like a very long while) since the Braves’ season ended, so this would be a good time to remind everyone that all Braves outfielders - all of them, starters and part-timers and everyone else - combined for a not-at-all-grand total of 27 homers, which was the worst in the majors and less than half of the NL team average (63) for outfield homers.
Ten NL teams had 60 or more, and six NL teams had 73 or more homers from outfielders. And the Braves had … 27. Twenty-seven. The Braves had a majors-low .367 slugging percentage from their outfielders, and only the Nationals (196) and Mariners (199) had fewer RBI from outfielders than the Braves (212).
So while so much attention is focused on the Braves acquiring starting pitching, their other stated offseason priority is a power-hitting outfielder.
My understanding is that all available options not named Manny have been or are still being considered, but the Braves are hoping to either sign or trade for an affordable bat without any long-term commitment. That’s why names like Seattle free agent Raul Ibanez and St. Louis trade-bait Ryan Ludwick keep coming up.
It’s apparent the Braves are planning to move forward with Matt Diaz, in the fold (Frank Wren made a comment the other day about how committed Diaz is and how good a shape he’s getting himself into this offseason), so I’m assuming he’s going to have some LF duties, perhaps even be in a platoon arrangement depending upon which other bad the Braves can acquire this winter.
That would make some sense with either Ludwick (if he’s not a one-season wonder?) or Ibanez. Both had great seasons last year as every-day players, but Ludwick has had an injury-plagued past and has been much more effective against right-handed pitchers, while Ibanez is 36, and has also been much more potent vs. righties in his career.
Both might benefit from a platoon arrangment, or at least a semi-platoon type of deal, which would also assure the Braves a powerful, experienced bat for pinch-hitting, regardless of who was playing LF at the time.
Ibanez has a .293 career average and .949 OPS vs. right-handers, and a .268 average and .734 OPS vs. lefties. Two years ago in 2007, he hit .305 with an .899 OPS vs. righties, and .256 with a .650 OPS vs. lefties (last season the splits were much more even).
Ludwick erupted for a 80 extra-base hits (37 homers) and 113 RBI in his breakout 2008 season, his first healthy season in the majors. He hit .266 with 15 homers and a .929 OPS vs. lefties, and .316 with 22 homers and a .984 OPS vs. righties. The man raked vs. just about everyone.
But in 2007, Ludwick hit just .221 with three homers and a .684 OPS in 122 at-bats vs. lefties, and .298 with 11 homers and a .909 OPS in 181 at-bats vs. righties.
For his career, Ludwick has a .296 average and .893 OPS vs. righties, and .233 average and .797 OPS vs. lefties.
Yes, despite being a right-handed hitter, he’s got a batting average 63 points lower and an OPS nearly 100 points lower against righties than against lefties. So throw out the book on righty-lefty matchups and go with actual results.
While Ludwick might be a gamble if the Braves have to give up a significant player to get him, he’s less a gamble if they have a solid potential platoon partner, or at least partial platoon, if you will. Ludwick has alwas raked against righties.
Enter Diaz.
While not a big power threat against lefties or righties, Diaz usually has produced loads of line-drive hits and a high average, particularly against lefties.
His .309 career average includes a .328 mark with 18 homers and an .869 OPS in 478 at-bats vs. lefties, compared to .288 average with five homers and a .706 OPS in 431 at-bats vs. righties.
In 2007, Diaz’s .338 overall average included a robust .356 with a .964 OPS in 188 at-bats vs. lefties, and .318 with a .756 OPS in 170 at-bats vs. righties.
By the way, Diaz might even have a role if the Braves were to pony up for a big slugger, like Adam Dunn, who could stand to sit against some particularly tough left-handers.
Dunn last season hit .253 with 30 homers and a .951 OPS in 363 at-bats vs. right-handers, and .195 with 10 homers, a .773 OPS and 60 strikeouts in 154 at-bats vs. lefties.
On the other hand, Jermaine Dye, another big bat the Braves have at least discussed, hits both righties and lefties about equally well. Only reason you’d sit him is to rest his old bones from time to time in hopes of keeping him healthy.
Well, that and the fact he’s gotten pretty bad defensively. Of course, pretty bad is relative, considering Dunn is absolutely brutal in the outfield by comparison.
Ibanez might be not only the oldest and cheapest (considering salaries and/or talent Braves would have to give up for Ludwick or other possible trade targets), but in my view, also the best option for the Braves. If the bidding doesn’t get too absurdly high for the veteran Ibanez, he’d probably be a great pickup for the Braves.
Back to L.A. — For the boys in Entourage, that is. For those who watched the season finale last night, that was a great way to wrap up the season, wasn’t it? Loved the scene where Scorcese appeared on the other end of the phone, and suddenly our man’s fortunes completely turned.
No, I didn’t see the 24 movie, but have it on DVR. I’m assuming it’s worth watching for any of us who’ve followed the show, though I gotta admit the previews didn’t look too fresh or thrilling, and I fell asleep after 10 minutes when I tried to watch it last night/this morning well after midnight.
Not excited about that the way I am about upcoming first-season finale of Sons of Anarchy and the much, much anticipated series finale of The Shield. Or, for that matter, as excited as I am to watch my Jayhawks play Washington tonight on ESPN2. Hoops is here.
Not your dad’s Deerhunter: Because for most of us, probably that Deerhunter was the terrific, harrowing 1978 movie — and it was actually three words, The Deer Hunter — starring Robert De Niro and Christopher Walken. I was 15 when it came out, so I couldn’t see it in the theatre. I remember the first time I saw it years later, that Russian roulette scene … wow.
Anyway, we’re talking about Deerhunter, the Atlanta band that’s had a hardcore following among the punk/alt-rock crowd for years, but now is reaching a far bigger audience with its latest CD, Microcastle. Not raw and punk like the stuff that built them a following around Atlanta, but more listenable, in my opinion. Sure to get them a bigger audience, which they deserve.
For some frame of reference for this new CD, the frequent comparisons I’ve seen are to Sonic Youth and My Bloody Valentine. While those are accurate, I like the refence a Braves/MIB blogger made a few days ago, comparing this CD to Velvet Underground. The more melodic tunes by VU, that is.
I also hear some straight-ahead early rock n’ roll influence, buried beneath the various noises and feedback. Great stuff. Fine album…..
Speaking of fine albums, I can’t believe how much Kings of Leon’s Only By The Night has grown on me. Realize I must have let their pedestrian performance on SNL, before I’d ever heard the album, affect my initial reaction upon listening to the entire album the first time. Because now I find myself playing the damn thing every couple of days. Tunes that lodge in the brain. Love it. Will definitely be on my best-of list at year’s end.
Meanwhile, anyone heard Guns n’ Roses (or should we just say Axl Rose’s?) Chinese Democracy that hits the stores (or store; I think they’re only selling it at Best Buy) this week. I know it’s been available for download, but I haven’t heard it. If you have, let us know what you think.
And finally — damn, we sure rambled didn’t we — a tune: When FSU safety Myron Rolle won a prestigious Rhodes scholarship this weekend, it reminded me that one of my favorite singer/songwriters, Kris Kristofferson, was also a Rhodes Scholar. Here’s one of his many great tunes, this one with a spoken-word intro that gets better the older and croakier Kristofferson gets.
”TO BEAT THE DEVIL” by Kris Kristofferson
A couple of years back, I come across a great and wasted friend of mine in the hallway of a recording studio; and while he was reciting some poetry to me that he’d written, I saw that he was about a step away from dyin’ and I couldn’t help but wonder why. And the lines of this song occurred to me. I’m happy to say he’s no longer wasted and he’s got him a good woman. And I’d like to dedicate this to John and June, who helped show me how to beat the devil.
It was winter time in Nashville, down on music city row.
And I was lookin’ for a place to get myself out of the cold.
To warm the frozen feelin’ that was eatin’ at my soul.
Keep the chilly wind off my guitar.
My thirsty wanted whisky; my hungry needed beans.
But it’d been of month of paydays since I’d heard that eagle scream.
So with a stomach full of empty and a pocket full of dreams,
I left my pride and stepped inside a bar.
Actually, I guess you’d could call it a Tavern:
Cigarette smoke to the ceiling and sawdust on the floor;
Friendly shadows.
I saw that there was just one old man sittin’ at the bar.
And in the mirror I could see him checkin’ me and my guitar.
An’ he turned and said: “Come up here boy, and show us what you are.”
I said: “I’m dry.” He bought me a beer.
He nodded at my guitar and said: “It’s a tough life, ain’t it?”
I just looked at him. He said: “You ain’t makin’ any money, are you?”
I said: “You’ve been readin’ my mail.”
He just smiled and said: “Let me see that guitar.
“I’ve got something you oughta hear.”
Then he laid it on me:
“If you waste your time a-talkin’ to the people who don’t listen,
“To the things that you are sayin’, who do you think’s gonna hear.
“And if you should die explainin’ how the things that they complain about,
“Are things they could be changin’, who do you think’s gonna care?”
There were other lonely singers in a world turned deaf and blind,
Who were crucified for what they tried to show.
And their voices have been scattered by the swirling winds of time.
‘Cos the truth remains that no-one wants to know.
Well, the old man was a stranger, but I’d heard his song before,
Back when failure had me locked out on the wrong side of the door.
When no-one stood behind me but my shadow on the floor,
And lonesome was more than a state of mind.
You see, the devil haunts a hungry man,
If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him.
I ain’t sayin’ I beat the devil, but I drank his beer for nothing.
Then I stole his song.
And you still can hear me singin’ to the people who don’t listen,
To the things that I am sayin’, prayin’ someone’s gonna hear.
And I guess I’ll die explaining how the things that they complain about,
Are things they could be changin’, hopin’ someone’s gonna care.
I was born a lonely singer, and I’m bound to die the same,
But I’ve got to feed the hunger in my soul.
And if I never have a nickle, I won’t ever die ashamed.
‘Cause I don’t believe that no-one wants to know.
Comments
By TennesseePaul
November 24, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this
But the trade cost would be substantially cheaper, and Arroyo is certainly capable of at least providing some veteran stability at the top of the rotation…
The Braves remain hopeful that they’ll eventually win the bidding war for A.J. Burnett or Derek Lowe. If they are able to sign one of these free-agent pitchers, somebody like Arroyo or Vazquez would be viewed as a more attractive acquisition.
—Mark Bowman
It’s this kind of crap that bums me out. Arroyo may be cheaper. He may provide “veteran stability” but the truth of the matter is, you could get that same level of average malaise by signing Randy Wolf. Arroyo is not a solution to anything accept back end starter.
If this is what the Braves are left doing, it will be a failure on Wren’s part. He would have failed in acquiring two top of the rotation starters. And if he is going to trade for mediocrity, he should pass on it. You can sign mediocrity, possibly for shorter term deals, and keep those trading chips for when real talent is available.
By Blue Magic
November 24, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this
Is Brandon Jones not in the mix at all?
By Seymour1948
November 24, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this
DOB,
I read that Tazawa is probably going to sign with Boston. Have you heard anything about this?
By GermanBravesFan
November 24, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this
hmmm… first?
By BillsNV
November 24, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this
Thanks DOB!
By Ryan
November 24, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this
First? Prob not.
By nolie
November 24, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
Scholar.Athlete.Military man.Songwriter/singer.Actor. One of the few people I know who makes me feel like I might not be the smartest guy in the room. LOL.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
I asked Frank Wren about the report that Tazawa had signed. He said he hadn’t heard yet.
By kdbanks
November 24, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this
Love the “cleaning out the notebook” blogs; it’s like watching the DVD extras.
By RC
November 24, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this
DOB,
What are your thoughts on the Braves signing Edmonds as a platoon partner with Diaz next season? He did VERY well in that role for the Cubs last year, and had something like 18 HR in around 230 AB against right-handed pitchers (these numbers may not be exact, but are close). Do you know if the Braves have spoken to his agent given how well he would seem to fit the team (affordable, power bat, veteran presence)?
By N8
November 24, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this
Totally 100 percennt, without a doubt, 7 days a week (and twice on Sunday), agree with your post T-Paul.
It’s one thing to trade any prospects, much less top prospects for a known talent like Peavy. But to start giving away prospects for a guy like Arroyo is desperate at best!
Arroyo is the kind of guy you acquire at the deadline to fill in for an injury, or to save your bullpen for the post-season, by allowing him to eat up some innings.
He is NOT the kind of guy you trade prospects for GOING INTO a season to “provie veteran stability” to your rotation.
Also agree that IF Wren fails to sign the “targets” he has had his sights on, and fails to make a trade for a significant upgrade to our rotation (because IMO, Arroyo isn’t that much safer a bet than Campillo - if he safer at all), then he will have failed miserably.
That being said, I’ve been saying all along, that as a fan, I’m not DEMANDING that they compete for the NL East title in 2009.
So the bigger “victory” would be that we might go into next season with all of our top prospects (and Yunel Escobar) still in our stable for either our own use on the big club, or trades to be made mid-season or NEXT off-season.
But if he trades anybody with more talent than Scott Thorman (yes, I know he’s not a Brave anymore - just an example), for a guy like Arroyo, he’d be grasping at air.
Wren would be better off BEGGING Greg Maddux to return, if he was looking for veteran stability in the rotation.
By N8
November 24, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
BTW, thanks for the new bloggage DOB.
Animal House? Good show, that stands the test of time, and should be thought of as a classic, with MANY great one-liners.
One of my favorites?
Not even in my Top 20 comedies. But that’s just me. I was young when it came out, and never lived in a frat house.
However, having played in bands for the past 20 years and staying in my fair share of sleazy and disgusting band houses and hotel/motels, I find a move like the Commitments and ESECIALLY Spinal Tap to be much more funny.
To each his own. Humor lies in the the laugh of the be-laugher…er.. beholder….well, you get the picture.
I grew up after Animal House and loved the John Hughes movies.
So I’d rather sit down and watch Weird Science or the Breakfast Club than Animal House anyday. Hell, I’d rather watch Risky Business, and I’m not a Tom Cruise fan.
Animal House isn’t even the best National Lampoon movie. I’d put the first Vacation and Christmas Vacation ahead of it. Hell, I might even put Van Wilder ahead of it. LOL!
But again. To each his (or her) own, and to call it the most over-rated movie of all time is as silly as the humor was supposed to be.
By nolie
November 24, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this
It’s this kind of crap that bums me out. Arroyo may be cheaper. He may provide “veteran stability” but the truth of the matter is, you could get that same level of average malaise by signing Randy Wolf. Arroyo is not a solution to anything accept back end starter.TennPaul
awesome post my man. I agree completely.
By DannyFish
November 24, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this
Seymour1948
I believe at this stage they have made an official offer but I don’t think much is known as to where he will end up. I have a feeling he will wait a while before making a decision and the Braves are certainly capable of upping their original offer if they feel he is a guy that can step right in. Also the last I heard it wasn’t know if the BoSox gave him the Major League offer or if he would have to start in the minors as to where the Braves did offer him a major league contract.
I am really hoping that we get Hampton signed back in ATL. He started getting comfortable at the end of last year and he has said he will take a one year deal with no option. If he can stay healthy (I realize how big of an if that is) he could be a really nice middle of the rotation guy.
By Steve from OH
November 24, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this
10Paul: Agreed. Either trade for a GOOD starter or sign someone. No need to trade for a Javier Vazquez/Arroyo/other 5th starter type when we’ve got plenty of those sitting around in our system already. Pony up and pay for Lowe/Burnett, or make a reasonable and responsible trade for Peavy. If he must, dip into the barrel and see if Sheets will go for a short-term deal to re-establish his value. Or go after Randy Johnson on a one-year deal, I don’t care. But no need to trade for a mediocre pitcher.
By TheDunderChief
November 24, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
Why is everything in BOLD?
By DAP
November 24, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this
if wren is looking for veteran stability, there is a slew of veterans on the free agent market. get pettite or wolf. i wouldnt hate to have aroyya, but it would have to be dirt cheap.
By nfieldr
November 24, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this
DOB… typos at the end of your distractions section. It’s the series finale for The Shield and the season finale for SoA.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
N8, respect your opinions.
Although I truly believe that if I was someone who rated Weird Science and Van Wilder ahead of Animal House, I’d never, ever, under any circumstances, share that information with anyone else as long as I lived.
By Dan
November 24, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
Very interesting and coincidental that AJ Burnett’s only two healthy years have both been contract years.
Those who worry about Jake Peavy’s health, yet campaign for the Braves to spend a lot of money to sign Burnett, confuse me.
Jake Peavy has a much better health history, is the better pitcher, and is more affordable. The Braves need Jake Peavy, make the trade Frank Wren.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this
DunderChief: So that someone will ask why everything’s in bold.
By Steve from OH
November 24, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
So the bigger “victory” would be that we might go into next season with all of our top prospects (and Yunel Escobar) still in our stable for either our own use on the big club, or trades to be made mid-season or NEXT off-season.
Agreed. I’m usually very opposed to signing big-name free agents, but this is a case in which it might be the best course of action. While I will say that I’m not opposed to trading Yunel/JoJo/Hernandez/LOW-level prospect for Peavy (I’d grudgingly do it), I don’t think that saying we should stand pat on major trades and keep our core intact is unreasonable at all. Since we seem to have a surplus of cash, it seems more reasonable to go out and try to lure free agents, something that is usually not a great idea.
We have a good core of young major-league players (Yunel, Johnson, Jurrjens, McCann, Kotchman, Morton, Gonzo, et al) and a very good crop of near-ready minor leaguers (Schafer, Hanson, Medlen, Marek) to go along with a good (but ever thinning) group of vets such as Chipper, Hudson, and hopefully a healthy Smoltz. This area is where we’re lacking right now, so it stands to reason that the addition of a veteran FA pitcher may be a better course of action right now.
One trade that I think we will need to make is one for a LF, and I hope Wren is responsible enough not to trade Kelly J. away for Ludwick. Dye seems like a very acceptable option, but I wonder what is price might be. Efrim, any thoughts on that? Depending on what happens in the Peavy sweepstakes, I’d maybe give Brandon Jones, JoJo and a prospect like Kaaihue?
By RC
November 24, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this
I agree that we shouldn’t trade for Arroyo. Vazquez, however, is a different story. He had a very down year this past season, and is consistently around 200 IP and 200 K a year. Vazquez would not be a good option for a #1 pitcher, but would be a very good option as a #2 or #3.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
Dan, you noticed that about A.J.’s career, too? I was just saying to someone the other day that, with this next deal, he’s going to end up making $100 mill or more in his career, regardless of what he does on the field henceforward.
Check his stats and think about that, especially if the next 4-5 seasons go as the majority of his other seasons went.
That said, he’d still be a great fallback for the Braves if the Peavy thing doesn’t get done (how ‘bout that, first time I’ve mentioned Peavy in this entire blog and comments section?)
By DAP
November 24, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this
steve from OH i agree that an arroyo type deal wouldnt make sense expcept in certain situations, i dont think its fair to limit arroyo to a 5th starter. he pitches enough innings and wins enough to be a good stablizer in a rotation.
By Steve from OH
November 24, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
N8, Spinal Tap is hilarious. One of my favorites.
“Well, they can’t prove who’s vomit it was, really…Scotland Yard really doesn’t have the facilities to dust for vomit.”
Classic.
By U-GO
November 24, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this
Do you see the braves going after marlins pitchers or outfielders thanks
By Tommy Hanson's a future All-Star
November 24, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
All that talent, and …
quite the looker, too!
McFann may change her screen name!
;-)
By Fan-heart (=Francoeur has heart)
November 24, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this
10Paul, completely agree with you, unlike other people around here saying Arroyo would not be a bad acquisition. Somebody said something about getting Randy Johnson…No way. Randy Wolf…no way. But what do you think about getting Kyle Lohse. He’s been impressive. What do you think of this: Peavy-Lohse-Jurrjens-Hampton-Campillo/Hanson/Parr (assuming Glavine retires, Hanson might get injured at some point, Parr might be called up at some point, and Campillo struggles perhaps)? That would look impressive.
But no, I don’t like getting Garland, Vasquez, Wolf, and I am a bit pessimistic, I must confess, about getting Lowe (Boras, anyone?) or Burnett (Yankee offering $$$ big time).
DOB GET
By Steve from OH
November 24, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
DAP, yea that was a mistake on Arroyo, but I’ll stick by my point on trading for mediocrity. If we’re going to make a trade, let’s make a good one, Frank!
By BravesFanInRockies
November 24, 2008 3:35 PM | Link to this
Yeah, I’d rather take a flyer on Braden Looper as a FA (2 years with maybe a 3rd option, tops, right?) than trade a ton of prospects for Arroyo.
By Fan-coeur (Fancoeur has heart)
November 24, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this
TennPaul I was going to say I agree with you completely. But wouldn’t you have Kyle Lohse as a potential No.2 starter, assuming we get Jake Peavy? Imagine that: Peavy-Lohse-Jurrjens-Hampton-Hanson. Yep, impressive. Kyle Lohse seems to me to be the answer, not Arroyo, not Randy Wolf or Johnson, not Garland or Vasquez.
I might be pessimistic rather on Lowe (Boras, anyone?) and Burnett (Yankees are No.1 suitors, folks). And I’m not thinking about Sabathia either. I’m assuming the Red Sox will get Tazawa which is so unfortunate. So just think about it, we get Peavy, Lohse…
By PBR=America in a can
November 24, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this
DOB… Have you ever saw the documentry “The Dancing Outlaw”?
By Dan
November 24, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
I am just not convinced that signing AJ Burnett (b/c of health issues) and Lowe (b/c of stuff and age) is the long term answer for this team.
We need an ace going forward. CC Sabathia is the only true #1 on the free agent market. Burnett could be, if he remains healthy. Lowe is not.
I think it would be good to add a durable starter like Bronson Arroyo, provided that move is coupled with the Peavy trade. A rotation of Peavy, JJ, Arroyo, Hanson/Campillo, unknown would be a good start.
It is imperative that the Braves complete the trade for Peavy. Anything less will not accomplish the goal of obtaining at least one front end starter.
By BravesFan79
November 24, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
Get Dye, forget Peavy and go after a TRUE ACE in Halladay. Hopefully we dont loose Escobar in the process.
Forget resigning Hampton and use that money to bring back Smoltz and Ohman to sure up the pen.
Make Hanson a starter at the START of the season instead of waiting till the all star break to bring up talent like Bobby usually likes to do.
Use Diaz as a platoon player… besides hes a great bat coming off the bench!
And id love a good backup catcher for once that could provide some pop off the bench in Flowers. (or perhaps we could center a trade for Halladay around Flowers instead of Escobar)
Anyways… we do all this… and were in the playoffs next year!
Provided Bobby gets a clue and it dosent take him the whole season to find out … whos hot, whos not, and just who plain sucks!
By Fan-coeur
November 24, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
I was going to say, DOB great post, and keep us posted with Tazawa!
By Andy K.
November 24, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
DOB: Do you see the article over at CBS? It’s like they’re displaying Chipper as if he’s in a walker. They basically say it’s time for the Braves to fade him out of the picture and plan ahead. I don’t think Chipper’s gonna like this article. A man who won the batting title last year isn’t going to have a reduced role. HE CAN STILL PLAY! Also, do you know if “U Kno Who” will be returning this off-season?
By Fan-coeur
November 24, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this
McFann, Tyler Flowers’s looking good in AFL, watch out! Possible replacement for McCann if he gets injured. lol, just kidding!
By DAP
November 24, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this
steve from OH look for anything we trade to the white sox to include blanco or anderson. maybe even gorkys. the white sox have said they wanted some speed and athleticism in their outifield.
By Big Al
November 24, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this
It’s a good thing Hanson can pitch, because he sure isn’t much to look at.
– Big Al, South Park, Colorado
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 24, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
Tommy Hanson’s a future All-Star McFann may change her screen name!
Oh-ho no!
Ah, man…there’s a couple-a dumb Vents on there today…
By DAP
November 24, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this
bravesfaninrockies Yeah, I’d rather take a flyer on Braden Looper as a FA (2 years with maybe a 3rd option, tops, right?) than trade a ton of prospects for Arroyo.
i agree. there are enough so-so free agents out there, that there isnt really a reason to trade for one unless there is a good deal out there. freddie garcia, mark mulder, randy wolf, andy pettite, paul byrd, braden looper, all these are guys who could contribute, give us innings, but would not really make this team, as it is now, that much better.
lets have a rotation full of mid-to low end starters. that fine. but if we do that, we will have to compensiate by having a killer offense.
By 22oz
November 24, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this
Scratch him off if Yunel is traded: Giants sign Renteria for 2 years, 18 mil. Really?!
By bsj
November 24, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this
So I’d rather sit down and watch Weird Science or the Breakfast Club than Animal House anyday
Holy Crap!
By Jim Hertel
November 24, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this
Is it a stretch to think that Flowers may be our solution to that big righthanded bat in left field as soon as this year? When I see him, he makes me think of Dale Murphy. I don’t want to make to much of that comparison, but it does not look like Flowers is going either to make or be able to stay behind the plate. Moving him to first base is not an optimal solution when Freddie Freeman is just around the corner. But left field could be his [Flowers] for a long time.
I may be too conservaative, but I like building the Braves with the players we sign and develop. Most of the trades and free agents are over priced.
By N8
November 24, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this
DOB
It’s all relative, IMO. And I respect that you respect my opinon. LOL!
But like I said, it’s in relative relation to what you grew up with and where you’re at in your “life” when things come out.
I’m a HUGE SNL fan. My mom, up until she passed, watched damn near every episode other than the last season or so. She has always stated that it will never be as good as it was in the 70’s.
I can respect that, and by putting it into perspective of what the FCC allwed back then compared to these days, I understand that it is not nearly as “cutting edge” as it was in it’s original format.
That being said, I grew up with Joe Piscapo (sp?) and Eddie Murphy and such as the main cast members and will always remember THAT TIME as the best that it was and with the thoughts that it won’t ever be that good again.
When I watch the old re-runs of the first few seasons of SNL, I laugh at the pure, raw humor that Ackroyd, Chase, and Belushi brought to the table, but since I was under the age of 10 and didn’t (at the time), understand the political satire that was being displayed, and even today can’t grasp the impact that it had back then, it can only be so funny to me.
Don’t get me wrong. I laugh my azz off when I watch Animal House (and I do own it on DVD). But I don’t think that I can can grasp how funny it was THEN. I can only judge it on what I found funny growing up, and what I find amusing today.
Same goes for Blazing Saddles. RIDICULOUSLY funny show. But I don’t think anybody under the age of 40 can grasp just how edgy that show was at the time.
I could watch the 1st and 3rd Vacation movies (European Vacation flat out sucked, as did Vegas Vacation), 10 days in a row, and I will/would laugh out loud more at it the 11th time, then when I watch Animal House (which I do about once a year).
As for Van Wilder and Wierd Science? Don’t care what you say. Funny shows. Bill Paxon (as horrible of an actor as he is and always will be), created a TIMELESS character in Chet. I don’t neccesarily “rate” them higher in terms of originality, writing, and acting. Both of those shows are based on very unrealistic premises. Animal House is probably closer to the truth than most parents want to grasp, when it comes to “college” life. Just that I’d rather watch those shows, because I grew up on them.
No different than the musical tastes of different generation gaps, IMO.
Very similar to somebody saying that they’d rather listen to the Sex Pistols than Marilyn Manson or NIN.
Two different animals, though based on the same theory…..shock and awe.
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 24, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
Good Golly Miss Molly!
Renteria to Giant for 2 yrs/18m?!
Dude’s agent is better than Boras!
By Dan
November 24, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this
Halladay is not the answer either. He is only under contract for 2 more years, and we would have to give up an awful lot to pry him loose.
They key to the Peavy deal is that the Braves would control a now 27 year old bonafied ace for the next four years (5 if you count the club option).
That is a long time to control such a pitcher (at below market value) who is arguably entering his prime.
By RC
November 24, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this
From MLBTradeRumors.com: “According to Sweeny Murti of WFAN, the Giants signed shortstop Edgar Renteria to a two-year, $18MM contract. More details and confirmation as it becomes available. If the report is accurate, the Tigers get the Giants’ second-round pick without worrying about whether to offer Renteria arbitration.
Renteria, 33, hit .270/.317/.382 in 547 plate appearances for the Tigers this year. Defensively, he made nine fewer plays than the average shortstop. Will a trip back to the NL rejuvenate his career?”
By DannyFish
November 24, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this
Andy K.
I agree that’s crazy. What an ignorant view. When healthy Chipper is one of the best 3rd basemen in the bigs. I attribute this to teams like the Rays and a few others that have gone totally young and cheap with their teams and performed well. It’s a fad now. A veteran all star (and future HOF’er)that still plays at his level as awesome to have in the line up. I don’t put much stock in the new trend.
By RC
November 24, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this
I would say it is a stretch to put Flowers in LF. From all accounts he is not a very good runner at all, and has had knee surgery in the past. Because of these, I don’t see him being able to make a transition to the outfield simply because of the amount of running that comes into play. A much more likely situation would be him playing 1st base. Also, he’s not played above A-ball yet. I don’t see him being any sort of answer for the 2009 Braves major league club, unless it’s as a trade piece.
By TennesseePaul
November 24, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this
Wren stated his goal was to acquire two top starters. The term “ace” has also been mentioned. A rotation of Lowe or Burnett with Arroyo fails that stated goal. He will have succeeded in NOT acquiring an ace and only acquiring one “top starter” if you are rather liberal with the term “top starter”. (Lowe is not an ace, and Burnett doesn’t pitch the innings or bring the health to truly qualify for the term)
Lohse doesn’t impress me much more either. And acquiring him would also make Wren a failure this off-season as compared to his stated objective.
The truth of the matter is, his shopping list is huge. I’m of the impression it is too large to fufill in one off-season. If he can get one ace type pitcher and some fill-ins he’d still fail his stated goal. But if he acquired these players without destroying the teams farm or crippling the payroll it wouldn’t be a total failure for the team. It’d put them in a strong position for 2010.
Saddly though, if Wren is left there standing when the music stops and Lowe, Burnett, Dempster, Peavy, and Tazawa are all in other places, he will sign or trade for some level of mediocrity and the team will attempt to spin it as a victorious off-season.
The hard part? The longer he takes to (re)build, the more likely a replacement for Chipper will be needed. (I love Chipper, but if Wren botches this it’ll be years before the team recovers and Chipper doesn’t have 10 years left on the field). So Wren has to make some effort to win while he has a Hall of Fame third baseman on the team. It’s a lot of pressure. But I’d rather him build right instead of build fast. If he manages to do both, more power to him. He will have successfully succeeded Schuerholz.
By Alan
November 24, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this
Great work as always, DOB. However, I have to question one of your proposed LF platoon ideas — that is, Ludwick and Diaz. Ludwick is a righthanded hitter, isn’t he? Bats right, throws left like Cleon Jones and Carl Warwick (blasts from the past). Ibanez makes sense, IMO, particularly if he can be had without giving up too much. Also, I want to comment on the Bronson Arroyo-bashing. He’s not a bad option at all. Fairly young (30 or 31, I believe), and he’s had a couple of decent years with a bad Cincinnati team. Again, if he can be had without parting with a top prospect, I think he’s worth going after. Aaron Harang, also with the Reds, may have a bit more upside, but he’d likely come at a higher cost. Neither of those guys has health issues, either, I don’t believe. I’d take either Arroyo or Harang ahead of Javier Vasquez or “second-tier” free agents like Kyle Lohse or Randy Wolf.
By matt_T
November 24, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this
The Kings of Leon put on a great show last week. They came out after and signed our tickets and took a couple photos.
Great music, and nice guys. Hard to beat
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this
Andy K, I doubt Chipper’s going to lose any sleep over an article on a website.
Regarding his return to the blog, all I can tell you is that he assured me a couple of times that he would be back on here at some point this offseason. We’ll just have to wait and see, I guess.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 24, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this
Fan-coeur—
Hey! Haven’t seen you in a few months!
watch out! Possible replacement for McCann if he gets injured. lol, just kidding!
Yeah…you are.
He did have good stats in the AFL…not so good in that play-off thingy on Saturday, but apart from that, he did rather well.
Heck, he could stop by for a cup of coffee if McCann gets hurt, sure…
By Rick Long
November 24, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this
Trade for Bronson Arroyo? You have got to be kidding? As distasteful as it is to contemplate the suggestion last week that the Braves might have to settle for “profitable gambles” like Garland, Wolf or Oliver Perez, at least these underachievers can be signed as free agents. I have said it before and I will say it again, don’t waste (i.e. overpay) the first money that you have had to spend in years on pitchers like Garland, Wolf and Perez. You would be much better spending it on position players.
Why do I also get the feeling that all of this talk about being aggressive and getting two quality front-line starters and a power bat will evolve in nothing more than PR to try to placate the fans?
By bsj
November 24, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this
DAP, bravesfaninrockies
I agree with this take completely. Talking about these guys as possibilities doesn’t get us closer to the playoffs. Bronson Arroyo, et al do not equate in any way with Jake Peavy. Bowman mentioned other possibilities coming to light in the days ahead. What other names are synonymous with Peavy that haven’t been brought up?
By BRAVEFANINPA
November 24, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this
DOB,
Why is Frank Wren not considering Pat Burrell here in Philly? I’ve been up here for 11 years now and he has been a productive LF year after year. He is 32 years old so I would think he still has some good years left. Any word?
By RC
November 24, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
It’s very premature to be looking for replacements for Chipper. Plus, with all the young talent coming up, this team stands to have very little payroll tied up over the next few years….worst case, take the money that Chipper would have been making and sign a replacement as a free agent (when the time comes). I’d say that Wren is doing a great job right now managing current expectations against future success, and is probably protecting the future success a little bit more than Scherholtz ever did.
By Dan
November 24, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this
DOB
Did you get a sense of how close the Braves and Fathers got on the Peavy deal?
Were they close, meaning most of the pieces were in place? Or did the Padres continue to demand Hanson?
This info might give us some idea if this trade is likely to still occur. Small rivers are easier to cross than larger ones.
By brAves Sucios
November 24, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
I’ve got to agree with N8… I want to be in it this year, but I’d rather hang onto the talent to allow us to stay in it for another 15 years than trade everything away for a bunch of maybe’s and mediocre veterans. The drop-off from the top-tier talent is pretty steep this off-season, what we’re willing to part with should fall off at least as dramatically. I know it’s a whole different system, but the Falcons this year have shown what a young team with inspired coaching can accomplish on the field of play. Let’s play ball.
By Hillbilly
November 24, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
I bet it will be a few weeks before Chipper shows up on the blog. It’s prime rut-time at the Double Dime right now I’m sure. I’d imagine he, LaRoche, Langerhans, Duff, and Willie Robertson are all decked out in face paint and camo right now, trying to track down a few Boone & Crockett whitetails.
By mikeingeorgia
November 24, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
Hey Dave…thanks for the new blog..I have unfortunately become somewhat addicted to them just like “The Shield” and “24”…the two best dramas on TV in decades (bar none)! I am really gonna miss “The Shield”, just like NYPD Blue a few years back…it just ain’t right to end these shows…LOL…anyway…Thanks…And P.S.-The Eagles album released late last year was mighty awesome…perhaps a decade too late but their best work (musically/songwriting speaking) ever !!!
By Bubdylan
November 24, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
.-The Eagles album released late last year was mighty awesome…perhaps a decade too late but their best work (musically/songwriting speaking) ever !!!-mikeingeorgia
Dude, I was eating a sandwich.
By Lew
November 24, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
f.n.hale-I’m aware of Eric Quincy Tate-I went to Mercer in Macon in the early-middle 70’s and saw them many times. Saw Wet Willie, the Allmans (with and without Duane), Sea Level, and the rest of the bunch from Capricorn.
No, Tinsley Ellis didn’t play sax. I have a friend from Mercer who has been playing sax with Tinsley’s band in central Florida
By Kenneth Simpson
November 24, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
I read where the braves are interested in trading for Jermaine Dye. The braves had him and gave him away for nothing and now they are trying to get him back. Just another stupid trade they made is my guess. I don’t even remember who they got for him but I think it was somebody from Kansas City. Does anyone remember who they got for Dye? I am wondering what kind of lopsided trade it probably was.
By Hillbilly
November 24, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this
Kenneth Simpson,
It was Keith Lockhart and Michael Tucker.
By TennesseePaul
November 24, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this
Dye was traded for Michael Tucker
By DAP
November 24, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this
honestly, im getting kinda nervous about this offseason. id ont think im the only one, but warrented or not im worried we will end up with nothing.
im not sure if last year nothing happend until later, but i think that since the peavy thing started almost immediatly, it makes it feel like there has been alot of offseason and no results, but really, not much has really happend.
either way, im not getting a good feeling, and i just wish something would happen for the braves!
By Efrim
November 24, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this
Renteria signs a two year 18 million dollar deal with the Giants. Pretty good signing. Hopefully that keeps some of the other SS contracts down. Although I expect Cabrera and Furcal to seek 4 year deals.
By used cars
November 24, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this
Dave, I agree with your take on Animal House….Don’t care when you were born, Animal House, Blues Brothers and Caddyshack have got to be top 10 or top 5 comedies. Don’t remember many great ones from mid 80s…Don’t remember much from mid 80’s…My question is where do you rank the Ferrell, Vaughn, Stiller movies of the last 10 years…Is Old School number 1 or what
By jed
November 24, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this
i’m glad i dont judge books by their covers, cauz that future cy young winner of ours looks just like opie taylor.
By Efrim
November 24, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH
One trade that I think we will need to make is one for a LF, and I hope Wren is responsible enough not to trade Kelly J. away for Ludwick. Dye seems like a very acceptable option, but I wonder what is price might be. Efrim, any thoughts on that? Depending on what happens in the Peavy sweepstakes, I’d maybe give Brandon Jones, JoJo and a prospect like Kaaihue?
It’s possible. But since the words “high profile players” keep getting thrown around by Chicago’s beat writers when they discuss Dye and Vasquez, I have a feeling that isn’t going to cut it. Dye is owed 11.5 million next year with an option for 2010. I believe there is a 1 million dollar buyout, so it’s really 12.5 minimum for one year of Dye. I’m not sure if prospects would be enough for them. They keep talking about their youth movement, so it probably means they want young major league ready players. I’m not so sure they will get that for Jermaine Dye. We’ll see. Check this article on the front page of ESPN.com out. It’s got some good info on the White Sox intentions this offseason:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove08/columns/story?columnist=rogers_phil&id=3723070
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this
Jed, except he’s 6-foot-6 and about 220 pounds.
By Nate
November 24, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this
Chipper is a great player, but pretending his chronic injury status isn’t a liability would be foolish.
By Wayne (I like Edgar, but...)
November 24, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this
That 18 million for 2 years sounds a bit high for a SS of diminshing skills.
By Brian22
November 24, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this
Chinese Democracy is better than I thought it would be. There are a couple of tunes that aren’t half bad, but overall, it’s extremely overproduced and very forgettable. Worth the listen for curiosity and nostalgia sake.
By Steve from OH
November 24, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this
Efrim, nice article. I agree that they’re going to ask alot (based on that article), but I don’t think they’ll get it for either Vazquez or Dye, and we’d better not overpay for either of them. But it says Ozzie wants speed and athleticism? Send ‘em Anderson. Maybe they’ll overvalue him. Granted, I have no idea (nor the desire to spend time finding out) what the White Sox’s needs are, so I’m probably blowing smoke here.
I wouldn’t give up too much for Dye, but giving up a moderately decent package is more acceptable for him than it is for Vazquez. Anderson, Reyes, Kaaihue/Diamond/Lillibridge?
By Moby Grape
November 24, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this
What’s with all the favorable mentions of Lohse lately? The guy has a career ERA+ over league average. He had one good year last season, but what makes anybody think he won’t regress to his previous level which is the most likely scenario.
By Chris
November 24, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this
I noticed that too Jed…he’s a goofy looking dude…but as long as he can pitch I really don’t care!
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this
I have to question one of your proposed LF platoon ideas. That is, Ludwick and Diaz. Ludwick is a righthanded hitter, isn’t he? Bats right, throws left Alan
Yes, he bats right, just like Diaz. So what? Do you go by what they should do, in theory, in terms of righty/lefty splits, as opposed to what they actually do?
I reiterate the stats I posted above:
In 2008 Ludwick hit .266 with 15 homers and a .929 OPS vs. lefties, and .316 with 22 homers and a .984 OPS vs. righties. The man raked against everyone, despite hitting 50 points lower vs. lefties.
But in 2007, he hit just .221 with three homers and a .684 OPS in 122 at-bats vs. lefties, and .298 with 11 homers and a .909 OPS in 181 at-bats vs. righties.
For his career, Ludwick has a .296 average and .893 OPS vs. righties, and .233 average and .797 OPS vs. lefties — a batting average 63 points lower against lefties, and an OPS nearly 100 points lower.
So I ask you Alan, why should he be ruled out of a platoon? Because he’s right-handed, if you did use him in a platoon, you mean you’d actually use him against lefties despite his inferior stats against them?
Having said all this, I should add I don’t think Bobby Cox would go with a straight Diaz-Ludwick platoon, because Bobby goes by the book on righty-lefty matchups, for the most part (like you do, I take it?)
But perhaps in a partial platoon, where Diaz gets to hit against some lefties? I don’t know, just pointing out some stats and such.
By MiamiBeachBravesFan
November 24, 2008 5:22 PM | Link to this
DOB, is Anthony Lerew pitching in any of the south-of-the-U.S. winter leagues? He’s already over a year and a half removed from TJ surgery and would be a good back-of-the-rotation starter if he came back to early 2006 form. The only free agent pitcher worth chasing is Hampton, if he does not mind being away from the kids in Arizona - and signs for the right price. The Padres can go take a leap for what they are asking for Peavy.
A Jurrjens-Glavine-Morton-Campillo-Carlyle/James/Bennett/Lerew/Reyes/Parr rotation may not win the division, but it will allow time for the Braves’ young arms to develop and get seasoning. Hanson can come in during the summer and pitch the latter half of the season, getting some time in.
Like you’ve said before, one missing piece would be one thing; the Braves are missing too many pitching pieces and would be better served saving money and developing the many good arms they have on the farm. Trades will only serve to damage the future of the franchise, as the Teixeira may have; the jury is still out on Kotchman and Marek, and we still fall three players short on that deal (personally, I’d rather have Saltalamacchia play first base - bad D and all).
For 2010, a front end of Hudson-Jurrjens-Hanson is nothing to sneeze at. If Reyes, Lerew, Morton, Parr, or James could also come around, the Braves could focus on bullpen development, spending money in that area, and keeping key position players until Heyward et. al. arrive to the bigs.
Down the road, Escobar could ultimately slide to third base when Chipper’s time comes, and Lillibridge could take over at short. I say keep both Johnson and Prado and do a platoon thing with them. If Diaz comes back healthy, Brandon Jones must still be given 2009 to prove he can do the job if no LF can be obtained reasonably; the two would serve as a solid, if not spectacular LF platoon. I like the Anderson-Blanco-Schafer-Hernandez CF competition, and I like Sammons as McCann’s backup. Francoeur has to come back, and Kotchman has to hit better than .275.
Folks, it worked for the Marlins - twice, and it worked for the Rays. Times are tough, and will be for some time to come; Liberty Media will not sell the club to Arthur Blank anytime soon. We still have plenty in the cupboard, so let’s work with what we have and keep drafting wisely. I, for one, like what we have right now, even if 2009 promises change, development, and hard knocks.
By N8
November 24, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this
used cars
“Dave, I agree with your take on Animal House….Don’t care when you were born, Animal House, Blues Brothers and Caddyshack have got to be top 10 or top 5 comedies.”
Totally agree on Blues Brothers and Caddyshack. But then again, those two movies are ridiculously over the top and have literally zero perspective on reality. Which is whey they’re so funny.
I’d put BOTH Caddyshack and Blues Brothers ahead of Animal House. Thanks for reminding me that it’s about time I go get me an Orange Whip.
By Wayne
November 24, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this
FYI: Lohse signed a contract w/ the Cardinals. Why all the Lohse talk?
How about Prado and Blanco for Dye.
By Original Jon
November 24, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this
The White Sox dont have a proven center-fielder, their SS is leaving via free agency and their bullpen was awful. Williams is shopping Vasquez and Dye. We need a right fielder and a starter. I see this deal happening during the winter meetings.
Braves get: Dye and Vasquez
Sox get: Escobar, Gorkys Hernandez and Boyer.
Bet on it.
By N8
November 24, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this
jef
“i’m glad i dont judge books by their covers, cauz that future cy young winner of ours looks just like opie taylor.”
I know you were just cracking a joke (an accurate one at that), but have you ever seen a picture of the current NL Cy Young winner, Tim Lincecum? Dude looks like he’s 12. Add to that, he’d give Jewel a run for her money, in terms of bad teeth.
But I’d take the Elephant Man on the Braves, if he could pitch.
By N8
November 24, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this
MiamiBeachBravesFan
EXCELLENT post. You’re dreaming (about Wren not gutting the prospects for the chance to win in 09), but you’re correct, IMO.
By Corey
November 24, 2008 5:32 PM | Link to this
Hanson’s stats are unbelievable. He’ll definitely be in the rotation next season.
I agree that the Braves will most likely sign Raul Ibanez. I would prefer Dunn or Burrell, but Ibanez will be much cheaper. I don’t think it would be wise to trade for an outfielder with Jake Peavy still out there.
Rumor has it, that Oakland and a “surprise team” are in the mix for Furcal. You have to wonder if the “surprise team” is the Braves. And, if so, Peavy may end up being a Brave after all.
If Wren can add Ibanez, Furcal, Peavy & Burnett, the Braves will be the most improved team in baseball. Hands down.
By TennesseePaul
November 24, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this
Do you go by what they should do, in theory, in terms of righty/lefty splits, as opposed to what they actually do?
Bobby typically does. Perhaps this time through he could stand to break from tradition.
By TennesseePaul
November 24, 2008 5:36 PM | Link to this
Caddyshack easily beats out Animal House. Blues Brothers as well. There are a lot of newer comedies I’d rank above Animal House. But Animal House has it’s position in history. And some funny funny lines.
By BravesFan79
November 24, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this
Wow…. Renteria got 9 mill/year by the Giants?? No wonder they suck so bad with such bad decisions!
I was hoping hed come back to the Braves, but not at over 4 million.
Interesting article comparing the 88 Braves to the Braves now. Did yall know we almost traded Andres Thomas for Barry Bonds? But then they asked for Glavine and Bobby told them to jump in the river.
http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/210/story/515643.html
By ppaddy123
November 24, 2008 5:39 PM | Link to this
I wonder………if Peavy was a free agent, what kind of money would he expect to make in this year’s market? I ask this because it seems clear he is the 1st or 2nd best pitcher available (Sabathia). I agree the Braves don’t need to give too much, but how much is enough? Towers and Wren both have a number in mind and neither wants to get burned. C’mon guys……getr’ done already!
By Steve from OH
November 24, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this
Miamibeachbravesfan:
That’s a good post. I’d like to see the FO give the kids a chance (and to an extent, they have), but I think signing one vet takes a lot of the guesswork out of things and gives us an established presence that we need.
Original Jon:
If that deal went down, I think I’d mail FW a dead fish. At least.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this
By the way, it should be pointed out that fellow Braves pitching prospect and Mesa teammate Kris Medlen finished with the fourth-best ERA and second-best WHIP in the AFL (Hanson was first in wins, ERA, strikeouts and WHIP).
Medlen was outstanding, working 21 innings and piling up 25 strikeouts with just one walk (yes, one walk) and 15 hits allowed. He had a 2.14 ERA and 0.75 WHIP, the latter placing him between Hanson’s otherworldly 0.59 and Max Scherzer’s 0.88 WHIP.
Jason Vargas (0.97) was the only other AFL pitcher with a WHIP below 1.10.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 5:42 PM | Link to this
One other thing, Yankees’ Phil Hughes in the AFL went 2-0 with a 3.00 ERA and 1.13 WHIP in seven starts, allowing 21 hits and 13 walks with 38 strikeouts in 30 innings.
By The Goche
November 24, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this
DOB, I’ve never seen him play, so I don’t know. But I have heard several times that Raul Ibanez’s defense is also pretty brutal.
Now these aren’t any kind of legit sources. Just people talking, but I was wondering if you know if he is any good on D?
By Fan-coeur (Frenchy has heart)
November 24, 2008 5:44 PM | Link to this
TennPaul look at Kyle Lohse’s stats.
15 and 6 solid year. ERA 3.78 which is debatable but how many Braves pitchers had an ERA under 4 last year? 116 strikeouts. 1.30 WHIP. Solid. I’m not saying he’s a top-notch starter. But considering Jurjens a number two, this guy is a solid number 3.
Second. Against Division teams: 5-2. Dude beat the Phillies TWICE. How many times have we beat the Phillies last year?? exactly my point. Third. Beat WAS twice, including shutout, and a 1 ER game. Beat Phillies twice, including 8 IP once, 2 ER, 4 hits. Lost to Marlins, 4 ER, 4.1 IP. Lost to Mets, 7 ER, 5 Innings, BUT beat Mets, 7 IP, 5 Hits, NO EARNED RUNS.
Fourth. Dude had an ERA of 2.36 in April, June 3.00 (Braves’ worst month for the past three years), 3.71 July, and 3.00 September,PLAYOFF PUSH MONTH.
Fifth. He went 3-0, 5-0, 2-1, and 2-0, respectively. 5-0 in June. Think about it. Five and 0. June. Braves’ worst month. and 2-0 in September, playoff push month.
Sixth. Look at his innings pitched. Dude is a workhorse. 200 innings pitched. True he gave up 18 home runs but against our division, he gave up 7. Not good, agreed. But not that bad. dude is a workhorse. 34, 35, 36, 34, 36, and 24. 200 innings pitched. Doesn’t get injured either.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 5:44 PM | Link to this
N8, for some reason I haven’t noticed Jewel’s teeth so much….
By Fan-coeur (Frenchy has heart)
November 24, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this
Blues Brothers my fave. BB 2000 made me laugh several times, big time. Those are my fav’es.
McFann: I feel like I’m back from a coma. Good to be back, though.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this
A Jurrjens-Glavine-Morton-Campillo-Carlyle/James/Bennett/Lerew/Reyes/Parr rotation may not win the division…MiamiBeachBravesFan
No, but it might qualify for consideration as one of the worst rotations any team entered a season with in a while.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 5:55 PM | Link to this
Just one more note from the AFL, which I forget to mention while I was out there:
In a three-way tie for best name in the league: Pitchers Rocky Roquet (Cubs) and T.J. Large (Red Sox), and catcher Tuffy Goseswisch (Phillies).
T.J. Large … you can’t make that up.
By BravesFan79
November 24, 2008 5:55 PM | Link to this
With Chippers shoulder issues being such a concern at the end of last season (his throwing shoulder) perhaps the Braves best move would be to move Escobar to 3rd, move Chipper to 1st, and get another SS.
At least that would help keep Chipper in the lineup.
I know this option sounds extreme… but im getting a feeling that Chipper will be complaining about the shoulder less that 2 months into the 2009 season.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this
The Goche: At his age, Ibanez is probably average-at-best in the OF.
By Frenchy-Bronson
November 24, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this
One thing that is obvious from the Gammons number posting: Bobby is the only person who has anything to do with the major leagues…… managers, players or writers who DID NOT know Frenchy was a liability being in the lineup every day! The numbers absolutely confirm that. But that’s ok. Bobby could let a chimp fill out his lineup for him on national TV and he would still be called a genius because of the streak of 14.
Bronson Arroyo as an option for Atlanta? I don’t think you should do a deal for ANYONE who doesn’t want to be here. Remember season before last when we traded for Tex? During that same time there was a lot of scuttlebutt about doing a deal for Arroyo. He said FLATLY in the Cincy press he DID NOT, repeat DID NOT want to go to Atlanta. He wasn’t opposed to a trade, just NOT to Atlanta!
Do you really want a disgruntled pitcher here?
By ppaddy123
November 24, 2008 6:01 PM | Link to this
You guys have left out another very important movie late 70’s early 80’s………Stripes
By TennesseePaul
November 24, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this
Fan-coeur: OK, let’s look at Lohse
And then there are the month by splits and the half splits:
Yes. He had an OK season in 2008. Just in time for free agency. But his entire history of work would suggest he is not that good. And more to the point I made in my previous post, he is not an ace or a top starter.
By Wayne
November 24, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this
Original Jon I think your offering might be a bit heavy for the twosome of Dye and Vazquez. Many on here don’t like Vazquez, but I think he would be a welcome addition. Certainly not a top of the rotation guy, but certainly good for 200+ innings and probably a better than .500 record.
What about Escobar, Blanco and Boyer for Dye and Vazquez?
By BravesFanInRockies
November 24, 2008 6:09 PM | Link to this
No Renteria signing after all?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/indexn?blogid=22
Man, these Interwebs is unreliable.
By Jim Hertel
November 24, 2008 6:09 PM | Link to this
Thank you, RC, for your response to my speculation about making Flowers into a left fielder. You must certainly be correct in your assessment that this should not be done, because I have never heard anyone else suggest it. However, his knee problem is part of the reason that catching is probably not in his long term future plans either. I was hoping that he might be made into an outfielder. He couldn’t be a much worse defensive player out there than Dunn, Dye or others on the free agent list. We don’t have any good prospects that are right handed thumpers for the outfield in our system. And, years ago, Rico Carty made the jump to the bigs from a similar level in the minors.
By TennesseePaul
November 24, 2008 6:10 PM | Link to this
Rocky Roquet
Is this last name pronounced similar to Rockette? If so I think it beats TJ Large.
By Andy K.
November 24, 2008 6:13 PM | Link to this
People! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEADS! CHIPPER IS NOT MOVING TO FIRST BASE! If anything, it’d hurt him more! He’s comfortable, reliable, and gold glove caliber over at third! Like FW said, “Chipper is our third basemen, and we have no intentions of moving him to first, nor does he want to”. Don’t try and “fix’ something that ain’t broken. Now, i know he’s run into bad luck with injury, but if last year is any indication, Chipper is like a fine wine: only getting better with age!
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 24, 2008 6:13 PM | Link to this
Fan-coeur—
Yeah, it was a tough year for your boy. But he cann bounce back…just gotta work on his approach, right?
Ha…Listen to me—keyboard coaching. Sheesh…
But hey, you have to admit it now, don’t you? McCann cann!
; >
By Marc
November 24, 2008 6:15 PM | Link to this
I’m still convinced we need a big bat more than an another arm. Not that we don’t need more pitching, we certainly do. But the fact is our offense last year was laughable compared to the Mets and Phillies, who are going to be strong again this year.
McCain lead our team in HRs (23) and RBIs (86). Are you serious? If that’s the best we go, it doesn’t matter if we get both Peavy and Sabathia. The Padres proved that strong arms along can’t do it, you have to have pitching and offense.
Taking into account that Francour became a liability as of last year; the Braves absolutly have to get a big bat between Chipper and McCain. If they fail to do this kiss 09’ goodbye and focus on locking up guys / developing.
By Max 14
November 24, 2008 6:19 PM | Link to this
Corey - I thought the same thing about the “suprise team” being the Braves. Also, there was an article on Athletics Nation that criticized Towers’ trade negotiation strategies and the media leaks that were coming from San Diego. It wouldn’t suprise me if they have resumed negotiations, and are keeping it on the down low to prevent the same type of public criticism and any interference from other clubs to get the deal done. I would bet that Wren would put stipulations on media involvement if there were any new talks.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 24, 2008 6:19 PM | Link to this
Andy K CHIPPER IS NOT MOVING TO FIRST BASE!
Neither is BMac.
Marc—
It’s McCann.
By sri
November 24, 2008 6:20 PM | Link to this
Did’nt Lohse sign a contract extension with the Cardinals (4 years 41million) a couple of months ago? He would fall in the category of trading for mediocore pitchers..
By Mike S
November 24, 2008 6:21 PM | Link to this
Here’s another thought about the Ludwick-Diaz platoon, (while trying to stop laughing upon hearing there is a pitcher named T.J. Large): Ludwick could also play CF against tough lefties. This would keep his bat in the lineup and also give Schafer/Blanco/Anderson (all LH hitters who have had some trouble with lefties) an opportunity to thrive, by avoiding facing tough lefties
Now while Ludwick probably isn’t ideal for CF, he did play in 14 games there last year, and has played 41 games in CF in his career. He’s only made 1 error in that time, coming last year.
Also, those of you who think that Ludwick is a flash in the pan, I couldn’t disagree more. The guy can rake. He’s always hit for power, it’s just been a matter of him staying healthy. In 2007 he hit 15 hr’s in 300 Ab’s.
I’d be ecstatic if we traded for him, although I sure would love to be able to do it without giving up Kelly or Yunel (although I understand that’s rather unlikely.).
DOB, do you think that could be a possibility; Ludwick playing CF on occasion to spell the youngsters and get Diaz’s bat in against LHP’s?
By Steve from OH
November 24, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this
Andy K.:
Thank You. Chipper is staying at 3B, people, and for good reason.
By nolie
November 24, 2008 6:25 PM | Link to this
JIM ALLEN-ESPN ON TAZAWA
A decade after Uehara passed on his opportunity to be Japan’s first top amateur to go directly to the U.S., that distinction now will go to corporate-league right-hander Tazawa.
Tazawa, who stands 5 feet, 10 inches — “5-11 if you really like him,” Wilson said — will get a major league deal this winter but is unlikely to make it to the majors during that first season.
He has good command of his fastball and slurve, but he lacks velocity, stamina and the ability to keep the ball down.
The talk of a deal worth as much as $4 million is testimony not to Tazawa’s talent, but to the soaring appreciation of Japan’s game. Fourteen years ago, no major league club would have paid a penny for Japan’s best player. Hideo Nomo changed that.
It wasn’t long before the trickle of scouts flowing through Japan became a stream. Major league teams now are making high-level offers to established stars some 10 years after Nomo got it all started.
But buying established stars requires paying top dollar, and if the best Japanese amateurs are available at a tiny fraction of that price, why not go that route? Thus was born the Tazawa buzz.
The right-hander would have gone in the first round of Nippon Professional Baseball’s recent draft, but that is a long way from being ready for the majors.
At 22, Tazawa is unlikely to throw much harder than he does now; his fastball barely tops 90 mph when he is rested, and he struggled to hit 88 mph at the end of last season.
In Class A or Double-A, Tazawa likely will get hit harder and harder as the season wears on.
Because he knows what he’s doing against corporate league hitters here, there is a chance Tazawa will make adjustments, although Ojimi is a skeptic.
The Mets scout believes the pitcher’s body is too stiff to allow him to keep the ball down in the zone and Tazawa lacks the smarts and toughness to hang in and learn the lessons needed to apply his talent in the majors.
Although Tazawa probably will not pitch at the major league level for the next few seasons, at least he will take the plunge.
By Marc
November 24, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this
Lol, you can tell I get in politics a lil too much
By TennesseePaul
November 24, 2008 6:28 PM | Link to this
absolutely must get a big bat between Chipper and McCain
Is this what John McCain has turned to after his second failed bid for the White House? Clean up hitter on the Braves. Sheesh this is getting rough. First it was Greg Norton as the 2nd starter on the team (thank you ESPN) and now McCain in the clean up spot.
By Bobby's Cox
November 24, 2008 6:30 PM | Link to this
Nice blog.
Seems to me Hanson is par with David Price. Price was able to fast track through the minors and dominate major league hitting in the postseason.
Hanson though has more “professional” experience if you factor in minor league baseball.
If Hanson is as good as advertised, the Braves don’t need Peavy and can keep Escobar. They can sign a lesser FA, Hampton, and up their offer on Tazawa.
My point is, if Hanson is ready to be a major league ace (with an obvious learning curve year in 09), then the Braves could essentially wait for the core of their touted minor leaguers to develop (particularly Medlin, Gorkys, Heyward, Flowers, Freeman), instead of trading some away for Peavy.
There’s a few on here who want to hang onto the talent. Put me in that pool.
By Not Impressed
November 24, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this
If what I have to get excited about come March 2009 is Ludwick in the OF and a couple of mediocre pitching aquisitions…. then I won’t be very excited.
If the above is what 2009 brings, then don’t spend the capital (players or contracts) on this. Just play out the string and build for 2010.
By Marc
November 24, 2008 6:33 PM | Link to this
The Pirates signed two FA pitchers from India that have never played baseball before. Desperation anyone?
By PopeVanIII
November 24, 2008 6:37 PM | Link to this
DOB
Please stop pimping Ibanez. You’ve got me worried that the Braves like him as much as you do. He’s old, and he’s an absolute butcher in the field. And he’s left-handed. And he’ll cost way more than he’ll be worth. And I doubt he’ll take less than a 3-year deal.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 6:37 PM | Link to this
Mike S, that’s an interesting point. Hadn’t thought of it, but it does make some sense. Didn’t realize Ludwick had played that many games in CF last season. However it looks like other than those 14 games, and six in 2007, his only other big league CF experience was as a rookie in 2002….
Did I mentioned I STILL think the Braves will get the Peavy deal done, despite both sides saying there’s been no talks between the teams in more than a week? Well, I do. Maybe I’m just being stubborn, but I just have a hard time buying all the denials and “we’re moving on’s….”
When you least expect it….
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 6:38 PM | Link to this
Jim Hertel, Flowers only had his knee ‘scoped, and that was two years ago. He’s fine now, as far as that’s concerned. Caught all season, then all fall.
And to say that he “couldn’t be much worse” defensively than Dunn is missing the point. Dunn is absolutely brutal in the OF, and plays there only because he has to play somewhere (there or 1B are the only options) as long as he’s in the NL.
Flowers is a solid defensive catcher and gets great reviews by all the pitchers, who love working with him. To move him from the position, when he’s a good defensive catcher, doesn’t make much sense at this stage, since his value is so much higher as a catcher than it would be as, say, a just-decent 1B.
A big, slugging catcher who’s good behind the plate has a hell of a lot of value. A slugging first baseman who’s just average defensively (he played there most of 2007 while recovering from knee surgery) is not so exceptional. Flowers hasn’t played above A-ball yet, and is still developing. Braves don’t want him worried about moving positions, especially since he loves catching and says he wants to do it until someone tells him he can’t.
And as for the outfield … He’s just not an OF. Physically, he’s not cut out for that. He’s a load (and yes, I know Dunn is, too, which is a big reason Dunn is so bad out there. No range.)
By Tomas
November 24, 2008 6:38 PM | Link to this
I think the Braves should gamble for either Aj Burnett, or Ben Sheets, at least they’re both dominant pitchers and relatively young 31-32, better than Derek Lowe 36.
I’d rather have Aj Burnett because at least he was able to stay healthy for a complete season. Ben Sheets is even more dominant, but since 2004, Aj has made 134 starts(thats an average of 27 starts per season, 4 less than what Jurrjens had this season), and Ben Sheets has made 94 starts.
Plus the fact Aj has already had Tommy John. Ben Sheets has forearm/elbow tightness problems= Tommy John surgery(misses 2009).
I’d offer Aj Burnett 5 years 83 million(maybe even 85, if there’s competition)(16.6 million per year). I’d resign Ohman(3 years 11 million(3.6per year)), Greg Norton(1 yr 1.8 million), John Smoltz if he can( 1 yr 2 million + incentives=4million max) Tom Glavine if he can (1 yr 2 million +incentives= 3.5 million)=29 million max, 25.5 million minimun.
Then trade Brandon Jones, Jordan Schafer, Blaine Boyer, and Jo-jo Reyes for Javier Vazques, Jermaine Dye, and 6 million. Those would cost 23 million -6million Chicago would pay= 17 million
25.5 + 17= 42.5 million min, 29+17= 46 million max.
By Original Jon
November 24, 2008 6:39 PM | Link to this
Wayne I say we could go for that deal as well, but would Kenny Williams take it? The center fielder would have to be a bit better than Blanco. How bout, Escobar, Anderson and Boyer.
By Bobby's Cox
November 24, 2008 6:41 PM | Link to this
What about Nelson Cruz for left?
Couldn’t we get him for Redmond, Morton, and Diaz? Texas wants pitching.and Dominic Chiti could help smooth the transaction with the rangers front office.
Cruz is probably just as risky as Ludwick and it wouldn’t cost us Johnson.
By N8
November 24, 2008 6:43 PM | Link to this
DOB
“N8, for some reason I haven’t noticed Jewel’s teeth so much…”
Well played. She is a hottie.
On a side note, if I had the arm of Hanson, and was 6-6 220, I’d have “Mmmm Bop” be the song choice for when I came to bat, just to annoy my teamates.
But that’s just me.
By Bubdylan
November 24, 2008 6:43 PM | Link to this
Is this what John McCain has turned to after his second failed bid for the White House? Clean up hitter on the Braves.-T Paul
Can’t hit the change-up. (sorry, weak…)
By TennesseePaul
November 24, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this
The Pirates signed two FA pitchers from India that have never played baseball before
They play cricket over there, so throwing and hitting and catching isn’t entirely foreign. And you would think that with over 1 billion people, at least one of them has to be able to play baseball at a competent level.
By Bobby's Cox
November 24, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this
What about a Kelly Johnson for Fausto Carmona trade with Cleveland?
Cleveland’s 2nd basemen are terrible, so they definitely could use johnson.
The last Cleveland pitcher to rebound from an off year was Cliff Lee. We know how that panned out.
By RG in Oregon
November 24, 2008 6:48 PM | Link to this
Lets forget Ludwick and go after Rick Ankiel. He can play left and be our 4th/5th starter.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 24, 2008 6:48 PM | Link to this
Hey, Fan-heart, I wasn’t gloating in my 6:13…just referring to this.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 6:49 PM | Link to this
Marc, you probably won’t have to worry about Ibanez, since the Phillies, Mets and Cubs are all reportedly interested in him. What’s wrong with those teams anyway….
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 6:53 PM | Link to this
Gorgeous singer-songwriter alert: Carrie Rodriguez. I’ve mentioned her before, but the CD is playing right now in my home office, so I thought I’d mention it again. It’s called She Ain’t Me, and unlike Jewel, Carrie’s music is as stellar as her looks.
By KC
November 24, 2008 6:58 PM | Link to this
I’m sure Flowers’ value is higher behind the plate, but I’d like to see him get more time at 1B. If the Braves are going to get the very most in return for him, eventually they’ll need to let him split his time between 1B and C to get enough playing time to prove he can hit in the big leagues.
By Wayne
November 24, 2008 7:00 PM | Link to this
O Jon I would be OK with that deal. Schafer is our future in CF anyway. For my money, it’s Schafer in 2009, or bust. If he doesn’t cut it, then sign someone like Kotsay or Kenny Lofton.
From what I saw of Ludwick, I think he is the real deal. If he comes cheap, then I would rather have him than Dye. All-in-all, I think they are going to be very comparable.
As Dave states, I think we gotta get this Peavy deal done, then sign one more pitcher. The Japanese dude would be nice to have in our stable, but is a future prospect.
Peavy, Ludwick or Dye, Ohman, and then sign one of these guys: Burnett, Wolf, Garland, or Randy Johnson. My preference is Johnson. Add Hampton if he is not priced too high.
In addition to all this, I would still love to see us get one additional bat that could actually play in the field (Norton, while good in the pinch last year, stunk it up in the field). Somebody who could play the corner infield positions, and have a little bit of pop in his bat.
I still like Casey Blake for that job.
I don’t see us starting 2009 with both Matt Diaz and Greg Norton on the roster. We don’t need two right handed pinch hitters who can’t play CF.
By Daybed Wagmoe
November 24, 2008 7:12 PM | Link to this
DOB — good call on Carrie Rodriguez. I saw her a couple weeks ago on Austin City Limits (she shares the bill on the episode with Jakob Dylan), but couldn’t remember the name.
By proeye
November 24, 2008 7:17 PM | Link to this
MiamiBeachBravesFan:
I agree with your post but unfortunately, the way the Braves operate nowadays it will never happen—not as long as the current ownership is in place. Remember the 80’s? That is if you are old enough to remember the empty stands. I believe they were the worst draw in the majors for years if I remember right. But it worked out for them—14 years to be exact.
Ownership is too concerned about their fan base tanking if they don’t have talent to bring in the fans. Unfortunately, you gotta have the names to bring in the bucks. I think Liberty Media is very concerned about keeping up the value of the franchise and will do anything to keep the numbers up. May not work out in the Braves favor but if Wren does things right, we may be fine. If nothing else it means the team will be competitive from a $ standpoint but $ don’t always translate into a team that can win it all. Everyone has to admit that Liberty’s goal is not to build a team that can win a championship. Their goal is their investment. What do they know about baseball? Sure they leave the baseball operation decisions to Frank and co. but again simply spending money doesn’t translate into a winner. Might be best as you say to do nothing.
So management has to do the juggling act with bringing in long term guys with short term guys that will be in place long enough for the premium A ball guys to make to the majors.
It’s really too bad that there can’t be a bigger emphasis put on developing your own players. I mean the off season talk is nice, but creating a team from the ground up can be very satisfying for a decade or more like the Braves of the 90’s.
By N8
November 24, 2008 7:21 PM | Link to this
DOB
“…and unlike Jewel, Carrie’s music is as stellar as her looks.”
Whew. Scared me there for a moment, and I was afraid to “call you” on it.
When you made the comment before, I was gonna ask in confusion, if you were a Jewel fan. Thank you for clarifying.
I’m a big fan of Jewel’s videos….. in a bar, when they’re on TV and I can’t here them.
By Mike S
November 24, 2008 7:21 PM | Link to this
DOB, do you think there’s any chance of getting Ludwick from the Cards without giving up Kelly or Yunel? (I guess what I’m also asking is would we be able to trade for Ludwick, after a Peavy deal assuming Yunel is included in that one)
Not sure what else they might be after, but they certainly have a logjam in the OF and need to trade somebody (Ludwick).
By Kieran, Long Island Brave Fan
November 24, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this
haha, Dave, you got me to laugh out loud pretty good there on that 5:47 PM post.
By nolie
November 24, 2008 7:25 PM | Link to this
Sox get: Escobar, Gorkys Hernandez and Boyer.
Bet on itOriginal Jon
Only if I were a fool
By Andy K.
November 24, 2008 7:28 PM | Link to this
MLBTR has a link reporting the Bravos are the surprise team for Furcal, offering 4 years at 52 million!!! Please be true!
By Braves Fan in PA
November 24, 2008 7:29 PM | Link to this
Why would Smoltz likely go to the pen? I thought the surgery (if it gets him back to where he can pitch competitively) and his saying in the past starting was easier on him (except last year but presumably that is because of arm pain prevented him going more then 5 in).
BTW, is Soriano expected to be ready for the start of the season? Any word on how Moylan is doing?
By Original Jon
November 24, 2008 7:30 PM | Link to this
Wayne I am not to keen on having Kenny Lofton back in a Braves uni. I cant be sure about Ludwick, because like someone said, he could be a flash in the pan like Morgan Ensberg was back in 2005 when he hit 36 HR’s, then 23 the next year, then 12 the next, then 1 in 08.
Dye, on the other, in the past 4 years has averaged 34 HR’s and 95 RBI’s.
Also, I dont know if a Peavy deal will get done, I hope I have every opportunity to eat crow later in the offseason, but I dont think I will be dining on that bird this year. Towers seems adamant on dealing him to Chicago, and a new story that just came out states that the deal was almost made but Frank Wren was unwilling to change Peavy’s contract to a full no-trade clause beyond 2010.
So, we shall see on that front, but I dont think its going to happen.
Casey Blake, to me, would be a good addition, but I believe he wants to be a starting player.
By Andy K.
November 24, 2008 7:30 PM | Link to this
From the MLBTR LINK (translated):
**Exclusive; Rafael Furcal could sign with the Atlanta Braves Rafael Furcal Rafael Furcal
The good son returns to his home.
That could occur at any time if Rafael Furcal signed with the Atlanta Braves.
According knew Impactodeportivo.com.do, Los Bravos, without fuss, they could sign it shortly.
In fact, Furcal’s agent, Paul Kinzel said he had a surprise team after Furcal, and that is Atlanta.
His first six years in the Major Leagues were in Atlanta. For life, Furcal punt .286, with 83 home runs, 418 stolen bases and 259 towed.
The pact with Atlanta would be four years and $ 52 million.**
By nolie
November 24, 2008 7:34 PM | Link to this
You must certainly be correct in your assessment that this should not be done, because I have never heard anyone else suggest it.Jim Hertel
Several of us have suggested it a couple of blogs ago. He does not run that badly for a guy of his size. If he could learn to pick up the flight of the ball from the point of contact he would perhaps make a serviceable LFer. Certainly if he can catch with that injury, he can play LF with it. Constant squatting is much tougher on the knees than running.
By Tomas
November 24, 2008 7:34 PM | Link to this
Would the White sox agree to trade Jermaine Dye(11.5 million), and Javier Vazques(11.5 million) for Brandon Jones, Jordan Schafer, Blaine Boyer, Todd Redmond and Jo-jo Reyes, with them paying 3 million of each players contract(meaning 6 million)?????
If they were able to pull that off, and sign Aj Burnett, Will Ohman, Greg Norton, and Smoltz/Glavine if they can pitch. It would be a succesful offseason.
SP Aj Burnett, SP Jair Jurrjens, SP Javier Vazques, SP Jorge Campillo, SP Charlie Morton, SP Tom Glavine, SP Tommy Hanson. And a bulpen with possibly 4 qualified closers/setup guys like Peter Moylan, Mike Gonzales, Rafael Soriano, John Smoltz+ 3 other very good middle relievers Jeff Bennet, Will Ohman, and Manny Acosta WOW.
CF Josh Anderson, 2B Kelly Johnson, 3B Chipper Jones, LF Jermaine Dye, C Brian McCann, SS Yunel Escobar, 1B Casey Kotchman, and RF Jeff Franceour.
PLEASE.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 24, 2008 7:36 PM | Link to this
Wayne,
I agree with you that I’d be very disappointed if both Norton and Diaz were here in 2009.
Norton, however, is a switch-hitter, and was mighty valuable off the bench. I’d rather keep him and let Diaz walk than the other way around.
By Josh P.
November 24, 2008 7:37 PM | Link to this
I wonder if the Braves actually sign Furcal, then fail to make a trade involving Esco/Johnson, if KJ would be considered for a move to LF. Less than ideal because his offensive value is much higher at 2B, but it would be an improvement over this season’s LF production to be sure.
By Tomas
November 24, 2008 7:38 PM | Link to this
No WAY Rafael Furcal. If this is true the Braves are going after Jake Peavy.
By flange1
November 24, 2008 7:38 PM | Link to this
10Paul,
I don’t know about Mccain as a clean up hitter, the injuries in Viet Nam have left him unable to reach a high fastball…. (sorry, had to try that one)
N8, I think MMMbop would be great for Hanson when he hits! Why would I ever have suggested Tommy Gun by the Clash!!!
ANd guys Lohse signed a contract extension with the Cards early this post season.
PLEASE DON”T TRADE FOR HIM NOW!!!
By John
November 24, 2008 7:41 PM | Link to this
DOB…..
On MLBTRADERUMORS.COM,
They are reporting that we, the Braves, have offered Ratael Furcal a 4 year 52 $$Million dollar contract…..
Although the source is not all that reliable ( Not MLBTRADERUMORS but the source that they received it from.))
By richbrave
November 24, 2008 7:42 PM | Link to this
DECEMBER 1 looms. Looks like OHMAN may be the first in.
By Daybed Wagmoe
November 24, 2008 7:44 PM | Link to this
Here’s what that MLBTradeRumors.com says:
6:20pm: Impacto Deportivo says the surprise team is the Braves, possibly offering four years and $52MM. It’d be wise to treat the report with caution until it is confirmed by another source.
I’m with Tim Dierkes (he’s the guy who runs the website) here — until someone closer to the Braves verifies this, or we hear about it from Bowman or DOB, then I’d look at this as speculation.
By Andy K.
November 24, 2008 7:45 PM | Link to this
Imagine this 2009 lineup:
Furcal-SS Schafer-CF Jones-3B McCann-C Ludwick-LF Francoeur-RF Kotchman-1B Prado-2B Peavy-P
If things work out, this is a possibility.
By Alan
November 24, 2008 7:48 PM | Link to this
DOB, about 3 hours ago you commented on my question of a possible Ludwick-Diaz platoon in LF, and then you guessed — correctly — that my point was that Bobby always goes with a strict right-left platoon. Which he does. Then later on, someone mentioned that Ludwick can play CF, which also is true. How about this, though? Diaz is arbitration-eligible, isn’t he? Is it a lock that he’ll even be tendered a contract? If the Braves do trade for Ludwick or a guy like Jermaine Dye, they may decide to go with a younger, cheaper, more versatile backup outfielder than Diaz — say, B. Jones or Anderson or Blanco. Speaking of Dye, please, please do not even think about including Escobar in such a trade — even if Mark Buehrle is substituted for Javier Vazquez. Why are so many folks so anxious to trade Escobar? Right now, SS is a position of strength. If he goes, who on earth replaces him?
By Andy K.
November 24, 2008 7:52 PM | Link to this
I agree with a poster on MLBTR, if Furcal signs with Atlanta, then Peavy is a Brave within 24, no i’ll say 48 hours. This eliminates Peavy’s SS worries, and puts up a strong replacement. Then the reluctance to let esco go goes away, and presto!
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 24, 2008 7:52 PM | Link to this
Did someone say mlbtraderumors?
By Daybed Wagmoe
November 24, 2008 7:52 PM | Link to this
flange1 and 10Paul,
what about McBain?
Also, for all of the Bob Dylan fans out there, check out No Direction, Period.
By Tomas
November 24, 2008 7:54 PM | Link to this
Andy K,
who translated that? It should be like this:
The good son returns home.
This could happen any moment if Rafael Furcal signs with Atlanta.
According to Impacto Deportivo, the Braves without making a lot of noise, could sign him shortly.
In fact Furcal’s agent, Paul Kiznel, has said the surprise team after Furcal is the Braves.
He spent his first 6 years with Atlanta. He has a career batting AVG of 286 with 83HR, 418RBI, and 259 SB.
The contract would be 4 years 52 million dollars.
Too much money if the’re offering him 4 years.
The Braves might be thinking they won’t be able to sign an ace, and are going to have to trade Escobar. So they’re really signing a pitcher by signing Furcal.
It would be a huge surprise, considering Wren affirmative comments saying Escobar is his SS, in his last chat.
By Efrim
November 24, 2008 7:55 PM | Link to this
Jon Heyman’s latest:
So in summary, the Peavy situation, which looked like it might find a resolution by now, may drag on for a while.
Yea, it does seem so…..and that really sucks. Because the longer this goes on, the more player movement may occur that doesn’t involve the Braves.
Of course, all it takes is for either Kevin Towers or Frank Wren to pick up the phone and call the other, right? So that could happen at any moment.
By Bubdylan
November 24, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this
Alright, I have to ask: if the Furcal rumors check out, what are the odds it’s an indication that Bobby’s hostility with Yunel is a bigger driving force this offseason than this blog has generally thought?
Or is it more likely to be an indication that the Peavy/Yunel deal is, like DOB thinks, quiet, but far from stalled?
Well, hell, at least it’s nice to see our name pop up on the top of the rumor board, in any language.
By Wayne
November 24, 2008 7:57 PM | Link to this
Furcal would be an interesting addition. I too believe if he came to ATL, that would be a sure sign of a Peavy trade in the works, or a Chisox deal.
Original Jon I don’t think a guy like Ludwick is any more of a risk than an older Dye. He might just as easily hit another 35 HR’s in 2009. Nothing is ever for certain.
BFIR With the short rosters these days (12 man pitching staffs), it is really hard to carry a designated pinch hitter.
We need to get some love going for a Spilborgh trade. This guy might just need a shot, although with Holliday out of the picture, he might settle into the left field position in Colorado.
Will there be any “Kyle Lohse 2007” type bargains out there this winter? I suspect after the big guys sign, there might be a few pitchers waiting at the alter, with no groom in sight. Might be a time to get a .500 type pitcher on the cheap. Could Mike Hampton be in that lot.
I really believe the journeyman pitchers (starters and relievers) who sign early are going to be the winners this year.
By Andy
November 24, 2008 8:02 PM | Link to this
Re Furcal: You have to know that if we sign him then we are going after Peavy again. If not, some other team we would love to have Escobar. The Braves need to bluff and tell teams that we are going to play Furky in CF. Actually, I remember DOB mentioning that Furcal could one day end up out there. I could see that. He’s obviously very fast and has a gun for an arm. I would welcome Furcal back to Atlanta any day. If it means that we deal escobar, love the guy, but we need pitching and we have to give up value to get pitching.
By Oasisbraves
November 24, 2008 8:06 PM | Link to this
DOB!!!
What about Peavys no trade clause? The Braves would have to take their rule of not offering them OUT if Peavy were to accept….are the Braves willing to do that?
By ncscoots
November 24, 2008 8:07 PM | Link to this
T.J. Large … you can’t make that up.
OK, that beats my last year’s favorite, Burke Badenhop. Too bad he wasn’t an IF.
Maybe instead of “you can take it to the bank”, or “bet on it”, we can henceforth proclaim, “I’m goin’ T.J. Large on this one!”. Yeah. I like it, I’m using it.
On another note, it’s one thing to include Escobar in a trade for a seriously front-line pitcher, but for Dye? Please. Moving Escobar or Johnson (the two most attractive trade pieces on the ML roster) for another position player seems only a half-step forward. That’s my story, anyway, and I’m sticking to it.
By Bubdylan
November 24, 2008 8:08 PM | Link to this
Daybed, that link was pretty hilarious. Good deadpan actor, which is not so common on youtube.
By Eware
November 24, 2008 8:11 PM | Link to this
Come on…why would the Braves try to sign Furcal now? Wouldn’t that devalue Escobar, because we will now have to move him or K.J.? It just doesn’t make sense yet. Maybe after/if we move Escobar.
By Iron Labrum
November 24, 2008 8:11 PM | Link to this
BravesFan79 Thanks for the link to the Ledger-Enquirer….I grew up about an hour from Columbus and when I was kid (long before the Internet) I couldn’t wait for the paper to come everyday to read the box. We didn’t have cable (too rural), so BravesRadio and the Ledger-Enquirer were my media outlets. I used to cut the All Star lineups out of the paper every year and save them. I also remember being so impressed the first time I saw a box that gave batting averages in USA Today. All I ever got with the LE was weekly NL and AL leaders…..anyway it was a nice flashback…thanks for the link.
By Wayne
November 24, 2008 8:13 PM | Link to this
Efrim The Towers/Wren thing is sort of a standoff. Whoever blinks first, loses. (my interpretation)
If we have another deal for a pitcher(other than Peavy), then you could go to San Diego and give them a 24 hour window to accept your offer, or pound sand.
By Ron Roberts
November 24, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this
DOB any insight on the Braves’ thoughts on a potential Paul Byrd reunion? I can’t remember where I’d read it before, but somebody in the sports media biz mentioned Byrd and the Braves as a potential fit.
By Marty
November 24, 2008 8:15 PM | Link to this
DOB, any insight into whether the suspicious Furcal story has any truth to it?
By Nocturnal Owl (N Nine)
November 24, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this
If the Braves and Padres complete their much-discussed trade sending Jake Peavy to Atlanta, the Giants’ (and A’s) pursuit of shortstop Rafael Furcal could be impacted. Media reports suggest the Braves would consider a push for Furcal if they send shortstop Yunel Escobar to San Diego as part of the Peavy deal. Furcal loved his time in Atlanta
By the way, when I spoke to Furcal’s agent, Paul Kinzer, last week, I asked about the shortstop’s back surgery this season and whether Furcal might have to accept an incentive-based contract based on fears of a recurrence. His emphatic answer was NO!
Kinzer said, “Dr. Robert Watkins, who’s the leading back doctor in the world, has given him a clean bill of health, and his prognosis is excellent. His risk of injury is as low as anybody who has not had a problem. He’s worked so hard on his strength.”
Remember now, that is Furcal’s agent talking. But you can bet any team that gives Furcal a big contract will do its own medical due diligence Henry Schulman
By Nocturnal Owl (N Nine)
November 24, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this
If the Braves and Padres complete their much-discussed trade sending Jake Peavy to Atlanta, the Giants’ (and A’s) pursuit of shortstop Rafael Furcal could be impacted. Media reports suggest the Braves would consider a push for Furcal if they send shortstop Yunel Escobar to San Diego as part of the Peavy deal. Furcal loved his time in Atlanta
By the way, when I spoke to Furcal’s agent, Paul Kinzer, last week, I asked about the shortstop’s back surgery this season and whether Furcal might have to accept an incentive-based contract based on fears of a recurrence. His emphatic answer was NO!
Kinzer said, “Dr. Robert Watkins, who’s the leading back doctor in the world, has given him a clean bill of health, and his prognosis is excellent. His risk of injury is as low as anybody who has not had a problem. He’s worked so hard on his strength.”
Remember now, that is Furcal’s agent talking. But you can bet any team that gives Furcal a big contract will do its own medical due diligence Henry Schulman
By i cant take it anymore
November 24, 2008 8:19 PM | Link to this
would a furcal at 13m per year make sense? with a needed outfield bat, and two starters? plus his back problems? throw in a wanted hampton and ohman deal. I dont know how that would shape up, but Frank knows better that I.
By ncscoots
November 24, 2008 8:20 PM | Link to this
Frank Wren: “Our needs this offseason are starting pitching and an outfield bat. Therefore, my first big move will be to spend $50MM on a shortstop.”
W…T…F?!? From the outside looking in, that one befuddles me.
By Nocturnal Owl (N Nine)
November 24, 2008 8:22 PM | Link to this
but somebody in the sports media biz mentioned Byrd
RR,Ya that would be Wren himself on the MLB chat day
By Efrim
November 24, 2008 8:23 PM | Link to this
Moving Escobar or Johnson (the two most attractive trade pieces on the ML roster) for another position player seems only a half-step forward. That’s my story, anyway, and I’m sticking to it.
Agreed. Especially the mentioned Johnson for Ludwick swap. St. Louis would do that without hesitation.
By Psg81
November 24, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this
Oasisbraves Remember the no trade clause was a John schuerholz policy and not necessarally a Frank Wren policy
By Daybed Wagmoe
November 24, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this
Would the possibility of Furcal signing with the Braves entice Peavy to come to Atlanta? Possibly, but I’m not sure that it would do anything for Kevin Towers. After all, wasn’t he asking for more than the Braves would be willing to part with?
And if I’m Kevin Towers and I see that the Braves have signed Furcal, then I’m looking at Escobar as a piece that Atlanta almost has to move. Wouldn’t signing Furcal while the Braves still have Escobar diminish Escobar’s trade value? And besides, the Braves, I would think, would still have to include at least another player in addition to Escobar, Gorkys, and one of JoJo/Morton (I’m under the impression that this was the package Atlanta was ready to send). Signing Furcal doesn’t magically make Peavy that much more easily attainable.
And how does signing Furcal solve the hypothetical problem of Atlanta not extending Peavy’s no-trade clause? That being said, based on everything I’ve read, the Braves and Padres never got to that point, but there’s speculation that it would’ve become a sticking point. I know that the no-trade thing was Schuerholz’s policy, not a Braves policy or a Frank Wren policy — just saying that a Furcal signing wouldn’t solve that problem.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 8:31 PM | Link to this
Marty, all I know is that, as has been reported here (and elsewhere) for weeks, the Braves consider Furcal a leading option if they have to replace Escobar.
But until they have to replace Escobar, until they trade him in other words, I wouldn’t expect them to sign Furcal, unless they already have an unannounced deal in place when they sign him.
By skull
November 24, 2008 8:34 PM | Link to this
MLB restores a little sanity?
Check out the MLB.com site:
Giants/Renteria deal rumor is FALSE.
Furcal/A’s rumor, while he may have been offered a 4 yr deal by some team the A’s rumored 4 yr/$48M deal is incorrect.
Also, no mention of the Braves offering 4 yr/$52M.
I would probably believe this site before most other rumor sites since this is actually part of MLB. You can go direct to if from the link on the Braves official site.
By nolie
November 24, 2008 8:34 PM | Link to this
would a furcal at 13m per year make sense? with a needed outfield bat, and two starters? plus his back problemsCant take it
not to me it doesn’t, but who knows whats happening that we have no inkling of? Hafta wait and see.
By Bubdylan
November 24, 2008 8:37 PM | Link to this
Love the ending to the translation of the Rojas article on Furcal:
However, judging by the pace they have taken the negotiations, anticipates some movements interesting for “the night of turkey.”
By Efrim
November 24, 2008 8:37 PM | Link to this
ncscoots
W…T…F?!? From the outside looking in, that one befuddles me.
Hey, at least he isn’t a Type A or Type B free agent, right?!?!
Gotta look at the bright side of things…….haha….sigh
By Tommy Hanson's a future All-Star
November 24, 2008 8:37 PM | Link to this
Why would anyone doubt the validity of a report on impactodeportivo ?
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 8:38 PM | Link to this
Had to laugh at all the frenzy about the Renteria-to-Giants “signing” rumor early. Right, the Giants are going to sign him before the Tigers decline to offer him arbitration on Dec. 1. That makes a lot of sense.
By oasisbraves
November 24, 2008 8:38 PM | Link to this
DOB!!!
What about Peavys no trade clause? Would the Braves change their policy if Towers were to accept the deal?
By Marty
November 24, 2008 8:39 PM | Link to this
DOB - Yeah, that’s the last I remember seeing you say. I am quite suspicious of the recent story not only because it conflicts with what you’ve reported (i.e., that the Braves woudl pursue Furcal after a Peavy-for-Escobar deal is made), because it just plain doesn’t make sense right now, and because there’s already been one completely false report about Furcal today coming out of a Latin American newspaper.
By brent a.
November 24, 2008 8:40 PM | Link to this
As much as Furcal supposedly would like to return to Atlanta, I wouldn’t be completely shocked if the Braves have made him a conditional offer, that he would be willing to sit on for a few days, until something happens on the Peavy front.
Don’t think the guy would wait a month, or anything, but through T-giving, or something, wouldn’t really shock me.
By Salty Dawg
November 24, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this
Wow! What is with all of the retractions on mlbtraderumors? I guess it’s that time of the off-season and so many days with no new rumors spawned a flurry of bullsh!t. One of the last ones I read was about the Braves making an offer for Furcal. What sense does that make unless the Braves already have a deal in place involving Escobar? If they WERE to make a deal with Furcal they would lose a lot of leverage in trading Escobar. Perhaps something going on under the radar with the Padres?
By Bubdylan
November 24, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this
Hey, we should check with CBS Sportsline.
By spotts
November 24, 2008 8:46 PM | Link to this
I don’t know if I can listen to Axl and GNR without Slash. He WAS GNR.
By TennesseePaul
November 24, 2008 8:47 PM | Link to this
It would be a huge surprise, considering Wren affirmative comments saying Escobar is his SS, in his last chat
Are you referring to the comment that was: “Escobar is our short stop”? That’s the least affirmative comment a GM could make without saying he is dangling him in a trade.
It seems a bit odd to give Furcal that much money and years. He was rumored to be asking for $10 million a year for four years. Why would the team offer $3 million more right off the bat?
I don’t doubt the Braves might make him an offer or have some interest in him, but the terms seem fishy.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 24, 2008 8:47 PM | Link to this
Things should start getting interesting about a week from now…
By Andy K.
November 24, 2008 8:51 PM | Link to this
You guys do know that CBS uses MLBTR as a basis for their rumors and articles right?
By CameronC.
November 24, 2008 8:51 PM | Link to this
Lineup.
Pitching.
This would be an awesome rotation and lineup. I dont know if its in the budget but if that is.. FRANK WREN GO FOR IT.
By Tomas
November 24, 2008 8:59 PM | Link to this
IF this Furcal report proves to be true(which I think is doubtfull) I think is an inteligent move. I really didn’t see Wren signing either Derek Lowe or Aj Burnett, by signing Furcal it gives him an opportunity to trade Yunel Escobar who has generated tons of interest for an ace. That ace I think would be Peavy considering the fact that the Braves had already been in contact with Kevin Towers.
I think they would have to sign Furcal, and a pitcher like Randy Wolf/Paul Byrd/Oliver Perez/Freddy Garcia, and resign Ohman, Hampton, Norton, Smoltz, Glavine.
Trade Yunel Escobar, Gorkys Hernandez, Charlie Morton, Blaine Boyer, and Jeff Locke for Jake Peavy.
Trade Brandon Jones, Gregor Blanco, Todd Redmond and Jo-jo Reyes for Jermaine Dye(and 3 million paid from his contract).
It’s all a question if they have enough money.
Rafael Furcal 13 million, Will Ohman 3.6 million, Greg Norton 1.8 million, Randy Wolf/Paul Byrd/Oliver Perez/Freddy Garcia 7 million, Mike Hampton 5 million, Jermaine Dye(11.5 million - 3 million), Jake Peavy 11 million, John Smoltz(2 million + incentives), Tom Glavine( 1.5million + incentives)= OVER 50 million. Almost 55 million.
I think if Wren still plans to get two quality SP’s(not named Hampton/Glavine/Smoltz), and a power hitting outfielder. Don’t sign Mike Hampton, Tom Glavine, and John Smoltz, or maybe ONLY ONE OF Glavine/Smoltz(personaly i’d pick Smoltz).
13+3.6+11+8.5+7+1.8= 45 million + Smoltz(2 million + incentives= 3 million)= 48 million
At the beginning of the offseason it was said the braves had 45-48million dollars to spend. I don’t know if that is still true.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 24, 2008 9:00 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan Hey, we should check with CBS Sportsline.
Hey, yeah! They’re very informative, aren’t they?
HA!
By oasisbraves
November 24, 2008 9:00 PM | Link to this
Matt Cain is UNTOUCHABLE says the Giants
By Mike In LA
November 24, 2008 9:00 PM | Link to this
DOB, 24 Redemption was awesome. The show always finds a way to reinvent inself unlike any other show on TV. The Africa plot was gold
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 24, 2008 9:01 PM | Link to this
Cameron Adam Dunn - 1B
People and their strange notions of moving random players to first base…I swear…
By Andy K.
November 24, 2008 9:02 PM | Link to this
Cameron C. And where do you suppose we get all the money to make that happen? Seriously….It’s thanksgivin and you’re sitting a the kids table…
By skull
November 24, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this
It seems a bit odd to give Furcal that much money and years. He was rumored to be asking for $10 million a year for four years. Why would the team offer $3 million more right off the bat?TennesseePaul
Don’t know about the rumor $10M for 4 yrs. Right after Dodgers being eliminated from playoffs Furcal’s agent, when asked, said they were lookin for 4 yrs/$50-60M range.
It was right then that I figured he’d never be invited back to Atlanta even if Escobar did go in the any Peavy deal. However, never say never, right?
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 24, 2008 9:05 PM | Link to this
I imagine Wren has talked to the agent of Furcal to gauge interest in case they do trade Escobar. It’s not like they will trade Escobar then make the first call to Furcal’s agent. They will have had multiple conversations prior to pulling the trigger on an Escobar deal.
By Chuck James is solid until the 6th!! (Formerly Steve-O)
November 24, 2008 9:13 PM | Link to this
T.J Large, you couldnt make that up…
Haha
N8 Hanson is really a powerfully terrible array of individuals aren’t they? Wow, it’s just so flagrant.
By Bubdylan
November 24, 2008 9:18 PM | Link to this
….It’s thanksgivin and you’re sitting a the kids table… Andy K
Oh, that’s rough.
By RainDog81
November 24, 2008 9:19 PM | Link to this
I have to say, I am really not sold on the Ludwick trade proposition. I know the guy had a monster season, and if he plays up to that level going forward, would make an immediate impact and provide a legit power bat in the middle of the lineup.
It just seems like such a huge ‘if’ to me. The guy has only 2 solid seasons under his belt. And looking specifically at last year’s numbers, I think we should keep in mind that he was hitting behind Pujols virtually all season. When Pujols was out of the lineup and Ludwick was bumped up to 3rd, the guy hit .190. It’s a small sample size (only 52 ABs), and it definitely doesn’t prove anything about his abilities as a hitter, but it’s something to think about. If the idea is to slot him in behind Chipper, what kind of production do we get when Chipper is out? I freakin love Chipper, but you can just about guarantee you’re looking at 30 games sans Larry.
Also, the dude strikes out a ton. He was 7th in the NL (10th overall) with 146. With 617 PAs, you’re talking about nearly 1/4 of his ABs ending in a K. That said, when you hit 37 HR and drive in 113, you live with the Ks. Still, that’s near his career mark, so you can probably expect that to remain fairly constant.
Anyway, if the idea is to trade KJ straight up, I don’t have much issue with that. I like KJ, but considering we could easily slide Prado into the starting role, it’s probably a gamble worth making. But I think we should temper our expectations. It’s pretty unreasonable to assume he shows up and puts up .299/.375/.591 (all career highs), 37, and 113 again. Similarly, if we do throw Prado into the starting lineup, do we reasonably expect him to put up .320/.377/.461? It would certainly be nice, but you have to figure scouting reports will catch up, right?
Anyway, just some thoughts. Given the other names that are being floated around, I certainly think there’s merit to exploring a deal for Ludwick. I guess I’d just caution that we should keep our expectations realistic.
One last thought, anyone listening to the new TV On the Radio? I just saw those guys a few weekends back, and they were effing great.
By Tomas
November 24, 2008 9:21 PM | Link to this
SS Rafael Furcal— 2B Kelly Johnson — 3B Chipper Jones — LF Jermaine Dye — C Brian McCann — RF Jeff Franceour — 1B Casey Kotchman — CF Jordan Schafer.
Very good lineup, especially if Frenchy bounces back.
SP Jake Peavy — SP Jair Jurrjens — SP FA(Randy Wolf/Oliver Perez/Paul Byrd/Freddy Garcia — SP Jorge Campillo — SP Tommy Hanson — RHP John Smoltz — RHP Manny Acosta — RHP Jeff Bennet — LHP Will Ohman — LHP Mike Gonzales — RHP Peter Moylan — RHP Rafael Soriano — LHP Jeff Ridgeway.
The problem with this team would be depth in the rotation. No Jo-jo Reyes, No Charlie Morton, No Jeff Locke, No Mike Hampton, No Tom Glavine, and no more money.
Apart from Kris Medlen, there is really no one that could be an emergency starter if a big injury where to happen. Tommy Hanson would already be the 5th starter.
Maybe if the Braves asked for at least 7 million of Dye’s contract, they would have enough money to fign Hampton.
By RainDog81
November 24, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this
Also, did you guys realize Mark Reynolds (Arizona) led the Majors in strikeouts with 204, all the while hitting a robust .239/.320/.458? He did hit 28 HRs, but good grief. Shades of ATL Vinny Castilla.
By Marty
November 24, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this
Cameron - How’s the weather in that fantasy world of yours?
McFann - Now I know why I like you. A friend of mine and I have been ranting about what we call the “army men” theory of position players for years. As in, “They’re not little plastic army men that you can just put wherever you want them!”
By Marty
November 24, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this
DOB - I have another question for you. Do you get the feeling that the Braves really view Kotchman as the 1B of the future, or as a placeholder until Flowers or that big Hawaiian dude or someone else comes up and hits? Perhaps somewhere in between?
And, what do YOU think about Kotchman’s ceiling and his likely future performance?
By Marty
November 24, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this
RainDog81 - Please don’t insult Vinny Castilla like that.
Mark Reynolds hit .239/.320/.458 with 28 HR, 97 RBI, and 34 errors. Yes, 34 errors.
Vinny Castilla had 6 errors during the season when he hit .234 for the Braves.
It’s an interesting comparison, but MAN, Reynolds is an awful fielder.
By Daybed Wagmoe
November 24, 2008 9:41 PM | Link to this
Shades of ATL Vinny Castilla.RainDog81
Eh??? I’m not sure I see the comparison. In 2002, Vinny had a low average (.232) but hit only 12 homers and struck out only 69 times. In 2003, he had a solid average (.277) with 22 homers and 86 strikeouts.
Or were you talking about ‘91 and ‘92, when he had a combined 21 at-bats with the Braves?
By Yars
November 24, 2008 9:41 PM | Link to this
I truly believe that $$$$ & fame made Axl Rose bonkers. Couldn’t care less about Chinese Democracy. Hell, I’m looking forward to the new Depeche Mode album in April. Was never a fan of Animal House. Didn’t think it was funny at all. Never a fan of early SNL either. More of a fan of the Sandler, Spade, Farley, Hartman, Norm McDonald era. In all honesty, always preferred Kids In The Hall & Mr. Show over SNL. Hey man, opinions vary so respect mine. Ben Stiller flicks are hilarious. Zoolander &Tropic Thunder are really funny. Love all those Vince Vaughn, Will Ferrell, Owen & Luke Wilson flicks. Flicks such as Dazed & Confused, Fast Times, Naked Gun films, Top Secret, Weird Science, are freaking funny as hell. I’m sure I’m leaving a lot out. Someone name some more of those type films. Also, DOB’s movie the Big Lebowski is also a comedy classic. If you haven’t seen Bad Santa, go rent it. Really funny. DOB…..were you ever into New Order? I bought their album Substance a couple weeks ago at a flea market. Can’t stop listening to it.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this
Marty, they got Kotchman with intention of having him man the position for at least two or three years, from everyone I talk to. He’s very affordable in that span, and they believe he’s a high-average hitter and a 15-20 homer guy, maybe slightly more. Couple that with exceptional defense, and that ain’t too bad, senor.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 9:44 PM | Link to this
RainDog81, love the new TV On The Radio, really is my favorite of their albums so far.
By Dadgum
November 24, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this
DOB…saw my favorite show 24. Not thrilling to say the least. Disjointed, predictable. Not sure where they are headed with it to be honest. Wasn’t worth the wait. Guess you felt the same way.
I still think that when we get Peavy (yes, I feel we will get him-eventually) Furcal will be signed immediately. Kind of a SS in waiting if you will provided the Braves show him the money and years.
Wren has said the market is thin on top-tier pitchers. Still gotta believe he will see that he must have Peavy. Towers and Wren will get this done. Hopefully soon.
Rock on……..
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this
Oasis, that’s not a team policy, per se. It was the way Schuerholz did business. Hasn’t been a case arise yet, to my knowledge, to test Wren’s position on it, but I really think he’ll do it on a case-by-case basis, rather than have a set-in-stone policy. Just doesn’t make good business sense to have a set policy. If you want to reject it each time a case arises, fine. But why would you tie your hands behind your back with a set policy in this day and age? Frank’s his own man when it comes to this stuff.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 9:50 PM | Link to this
By the way, my Big 12 bias shows in the finalists I’ve named for my Davey O’Brien Award for the nation’s top quarterback. The three finalists are Bradford (OU), Harrell (Texas Tech) and McCoy (Texas).
By Jim Hertel
November 24, 2008 9:50 PM | Link to this
Thanks, David for your 6:38 response to my suggestion that Flowers could be our solution to a left field, right-handed batting thumper in the lineup. I’m just a fan who wants to see Flowers in Atlanta sooner rather than later.
Generally, however, I think it is better to build a team with the players you draft and develop than to build through free agency and trades. Some trades are necessary, such as the trade for Fred McGriff which was the finishing touch to a powerhouse team. Signing Greg Maddox was a free agent that made sense in that point in time.
This year, however, I don’t know what we really have in this team. It is such an enigma to me. Will a few starting pitchers and another bat in the lineup make us contenders in 2009? Maybe, but probably not. I’d love to see the Braves get Jake Peavy, but I’m not sure I want to see us get him if we have to give up Charlie Morton in the deal. I think Morton and Hanson could be young thoroughbreds for the starting staff for years to come.
It may take a couple of years to get there, but rather than give away the future maybe it would be better to identify the pieces in our minor league system that we can build a winning team around. I think Wren is doing that by making Hanson and Heyward untouchable. That’s the way the Braves continued to win in the 90s when they had a wealth of talent getting ready in the minors. Players like Chipper, Lopez, Klesko, Andru, and even Dye (for a short period) came up and continued the winning tradition.
In more recent years, we have traded from our bounty to add a piece here and there, thinking it would get us over the top. In Drew and Tex we gave up too much for the return.
I keep hearing that the Braves have 40 million dollars to spend this off season. As crazy as this sounds, that is not much money when you have to go up against the moneyed teams.
By RainDog81
November 24, 2008 9:56 PM | Link to this
Okay, maybe the Vinny comparison is a touch off-base. I definitely did not see that Reynolds had 34 errors. That is brutal. I retract my Vinny statement and wish him well in retirement.
Maybe… Shane Andrews? I’m pulling from the top of my head here.
By Interested Observer
November 24, 2008 10:07 PM | Link to this
I just read that the Rockies hired Brian Jordan as strength and conditioning coach. That’s got to be the same Brian Jordan, doesn’t it??
For you Don Baylor fans, the Rockies also hired him as their hitting coach.
By Cherokee
November 24, 2008 10:13 PM | Link to this
JIM ALLEN-ESPN ON TAZAWA nolie
This quote does not make him sound like a particularly good investment. I watched the You Tube video and he was not throwing all that hard and although his horizontal control looked good he did not display much vertical command. I hope they do not spend too much on him. I doubt that we should get in a bidding was with Boston.
By Marty
November 24, 2008 10:13 PM | Link to this
RainDog81 - Hey, I was half-kidding — other than the errors, your comparison is eerily dead-on.
DOB - Thanks for the insight on Kotchman. So, the feeling is still that he could be Mark Grace-like (although probably not as good). I’ll be interested to see what he can do in a full season here.
By matta
November 24, 2008 10:19 PM | Link to this
Does anyone find it a little strange that the $52MM / 4 yr Furcal rumor hasn’t been substantiated yet?
Maybe just another Spanish-language site looking for traffic?
By Salty Dawg
November 24, 2008 10:21 PM | Link to this
I truly believe that $$$$ & fame made Axl Rose bonkers. Couldn’t care less about Chinese Democracy.
I haven’t heard the album myself and, honestly, was never a huge GNR fan back in the day. But I have seen several reviews (actual people, not magazines/websites with a vested interest) where Chinese Democracy is getting some pretty good feedback. But after the time and money Rose has put into the album, anything less than being dubbed the best album ever is a letdown.
By Cherokee
November 24, 2008 10:21 PM | Link to this
It seems a bit odd to give Furcal that much money and years. He was rumored to be asking for $10 million a year for four years. Why would the team offer $3 million more right off the bat? TennesseePayl
I read that his agent claimed to already have a 3 year offer for 39 million dollars, but they wanted at least four years. As with any statement from an agent at this time of year, I guess we should take it with a grain of salt, but figures above 10 million dollars have been bandied about several times alreday.
By cabravesfan
November 24, 2008 10:25 PM | Link to this
McFann
Totally agree with you (and whomever said the “army men” quote-loved it- sorry i am too lazy to look up who that was) on the random players at 1st base…People- We have a very good 1st baseman- give him a chance to show what he can do!
DOB- No reason to apologize for your Davey O’Brien picks- hard to argue with those guys- I would have to agree with you on all three (and I am a passionate and proud Pac 10 girl)
By Vol4ever
November 24, 2008 10:28 PM | Link to this
I’ve been a Braves fan for almost 30 years. I’ve watched the up and downs of this franchise and I hate to rain on this offseason’s parade BUT folks the Braves are a bottom feeder team now and they are not going to spend those free agent dollars like fans think they will. They have become a cheap organization. I remember the time when if they needed a player they went out and got that player, NOW, they have all us all worrying about what a Dye or a Peavy will cost in dollars. Braves are unwilling to spend the bucks it takes to win. BTW, keep this post until next september and we will discuss again.
Aggravated Braves fan.
By Marty
November 24, 2008 10:32 PM | Link to this
Salty Dawg - I’m no huge GnR fan, but in my opinion, the one new GnR song which appears in Rock Band 2 is terrible.
By RainDog81
November 24, 2008 10:32 PM | Link to this
Marty - It is all good; I take no offense at being called out for a bad analogy.
Shane Andrews was definitely a better comparison. I’m one for two tonight, so I feel decent about things. I was a little distracted initially by my spicy chicken sandwich, but I’ve pulled it together.
By skull
November 24, 2008 10:40 PM | Link to this
I just read that the Rockies hired Brian Jordan as strength and conditioning coach. That’s got to be the same Brian Jordan, doesn’t it?? *Interested Observer *
I thought the same thing at first, then read release that said Jordan has been in the Rockies minor league system for the past 9 yrs.
By Bubdylan
November 24, 2008 10:42 PM | Link to this
Vol4Ever, at least you have college football, oh wait…
By Duke
November 24, 2008 10:43 PM | Link to this
MiamiBeachBravesFan, your post at 5:22 is just stupid.
By skull
November 24, 2008 10:44 PM | Link to this
Aggravated Braves fan. Vol4ever
Have you been introduced to Frustrated Fan?
By Movie Critic
November 24, 2008 10:46 PM | Link to this
Amazing no one has yet mentioned one of THE most classic comedy films ever - Young Frankenstein..
I mean - what an incredible ensemble cast:
Gene Wilder (sure he overacts in the film - but he is the central character and it is farcical)
Peter Boyle (the Monster - the scene near the end when he is lying in bed reading the WSJ and reacting to..)
Madeline Kahn (RIP - she was so freaking funny)
The late, great Marty Feldman (with the shifting hump):
Cloris Leachman: (Frau Blucher horses whinny)
Terri Garr (hot as ever)
Gene Hackman (cameo role as the blind man)
Harvey Korman (RIP - the German town official)
I still laugh very time I watch it..
By N8
November 24, 2008 11:08 PM | Link to this
Guns-n-Roses without the COMBO of Slash & Axl, is the hard rock/heavy metal equivalent of Paul McCartney without John Lennon. IE….Wings.
Even closer yet, is Page/Coverdale, or perhaps Robert Plant’s solo offerings.
Before you sue me for defamation of the Beatles’ character, I am NOT comparing Guns-n-Roses to the Beatles.
Just saying that Axl without Slash always has, is and always will be CRAP, regardless of how this new album is.
Some combos are not meant to work apart from one another. Too many examples, in all genres of music to list them all. But here are a few more that come to mind:
Paul Stanley and Gene Simmons should NEVER be aloud to make solo records ever again.
An Art Garfunkel solo record sure makes a nice coaster.
I’m quite certain that nobody has any interest in Noel and Liam Gallagher doing solo albums anytime soon.
The New Bohemiens have no business putting out records without Edie Berkell. Sorry, couldn’t resist.
It’s apparent that Eddie Van Halen should not be allowed to make records without the services of Sammy Hagar OR David Lee Roth (die hards will say that the Van Hagar work was crap as well).
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that neither Lars Ulrich, nor James Hetfield would spark much interest if they put out seperate projects.
That being said, Ozzy has done just fine without Tony Iommi, as has Kenny Loggins without Messina.
Stil waiting for the Andrew Ridgely solo project though. LOL!
By N8
November 24, 2008 11:11 PM | Link to this
Movie Critic
I just about mentioned Young Frankenstein today, when mentioning movies I’d rather watch than Animal House.
Our band actually has a case for some power cables that is labeled “Poo Poo Undies”.
CLASSIC movie.
By TennesseePaul
November 24, 2008 11:11 PM | Link to this
Yes. Maybe the bidding has already exceeded the mark. But I didn’t think I was far off with my statement. Found where I read it:
Furcal should have plenty of suitors, including Oakland, and is believed to be seeking four years at $10 million per for openers
—Henry Schulman
Kinzer, who called reports that his client is looking for at least four years at $10 million per season “in the ballpark,” listed security and “where Rafael feels comfortable” as the top factors in negotiations
—Mychael Urban
By BX
November 24, 2008 11:18 PM | Link to this
DOB, I know you love the FX shows, but have you checked out Burn Notice on USA?
I can’t wait for that show to return. Action, humor, and Bruce Campbell. Hell ya.
By Deep Throat
November 24, 2008 11:20 PM | Link to this
What started as seemingly the most exciting offseason in my memory, with all the money the Braves have and the Peavy, has quickly turned really dull. Zzzzzzzz.
All I will say is:
A. Do NOT sign Oliver Perez or Jon Garland or Randy Wolf. Have mercy.
B. Why the hate for low-average, high-OBP guys like Burrell and Dunn?
C. Who is John Galt?
By Salty Dawg
November 24, 2008 11:29 PM | Link to this
Stil waiting for the Andrew Ridgely solo project though. LOL!
Then you missed it. He actually had a solo album out years ago. Never heard it, but he had a single on mtv when they still played a little music now and again. In fact, I don’t recall the single too much either for that matter.
By Vale Please Come Back
November 24, 2008 11:32 PM | Link to this
Hate Me!! I don’t care. We need Vale on this board. I’m on ESPN site today and I go to Gammons Blog. What do I read?? Paul Volcker and Bud Selig talking about how bad this economy will be for baseball and how adjustments will be made. Sound familiar? He’s abrasive, wouldn’t want to have a beer with him but I appreciate how he appears to be ahead of the curve. The counter culture stuff is a distraction, but so what? He’s all doom and gloom and I just wish I would have had the brains to have been doom and gloom starting in Nov. 07. Thought I was retired, but now WalMart greeter may be in my future. Vale, if you’re out there come back.Hell, I’d even like your thoughts on Obama’s Treasure and advisors.
By Roach
November 24, 2008 11:38 PM | Link to this
DOB,
couldnt agree more about Kotchman. Im excited to see what he does in a full year in a braves uniform.
By Tokyo Daze
November 24, 2008 11:40 PM | Link to this
DOB Kyodo News service is reporting that Tazawa will likely decide between the Braves, Red Sox, Rangers and Mariners shortly. Boston is thought to be the frontunner, although Texas’ offer, made just yesterday, is the most lucrative in terms of amount offered and duration.
So nothing is decided yet on the Tazawa front.
And while yes, Young Frankenstein has to go on that list of great comedies, how can it be that NO ONE has made mention of Monty Python and the Holy Grail? “NI!” I say, to all of you.
By David O'Brien
November 24, 2008 11:45 PM | Link to this
Dadgum, I haven’t watched 24 yet. Been watching my young Jayhawks face Washington tonight, first real look at them. Washington ain’t much, but KU youngsters showing plenty of promise. Gonna take a while to put it all together. Very, very young KU team, with all five starters gone from last year’s team.
Tell you what, Bobby Knight very strong in the game analysis, something he’s doing this year for ESPN (he was in the studio last year). Listening to him, you sure can learn a hell of a lot about basketball….
N8: McCartney & Wings’ Band on the Run was a very good album, and Robert Plant’s had a couple of good albums and a very strong collaboration with Alison Krauss last year. Not the Beatles and Led Zep, but some good stuff.
By Wayne
November 24, 2008 11:52 PM | Link to this
N8 Kinda like peanut butter without jelly??
By Interested Observer
November 25, 2008 12:05 AM | Link to this
skull Thanks for the clarification. I thought it sounded a bit odd. You don’t ever see ex players becoming strength and conditioning coaches.
By nolie
November 25, 2008 12:06 AM | Link to this
but have you checked out Burn Notice on USA?
Great show. I can’t wait either
By N8
November 25, 2008 12:07 AM | Link to this
DOB
“N8: McCartney & Wings’ Band on the Run was a very good album, and Robert Plant’s had a couple of good albums and a very strong collaboration with Alison Krauss last year. Not the Beatles and Led Zep, but some good stuff.”
Agreed. I guess I was just saying that in those instances, they have a lot to live up to, and it’s not going to compare. But that’s the “problem” with being associated with greatness and ground breaking music in the past. Tough history to live up to.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on the Wings. It has never done much for me. That being said, I’ve got a Paul McCartney live concert on VHS from like 94 (or somewhere around then), and it’s very entertaining and his band was fantastic. Even the Wings tunes they played were good.
But when you USED TO BE in The Beatles….
By skull
November 25, 2008 12:08 AM | Link to this
TennesseePaul
Wasn’t calling you out, but was questioning those rumors. I saw them also awhile back. Many, many ran with them as if that’s what would get it done with Furcal. Most didn’t pay good attention to the one that said 4 yrs $10M per would be the opener.
I believe it was the Fox Sports SoCal report right after playoffs that quoted the agent that the contract would end up at 4yrs $50-60M. Agent also said he had paperwork from the doctor saying his back will be just fine.
We shall see if the back holds up—will be an expensive gamble though!
By Scottbravesfan
November 25, 2008 12:16 AM | Link to this
I got a feeling this offseason is going to come and go and the Braves are not going to make a move.
By skull
November 25, 2008 12:33 AM | Link to this
Scottbravesfan
I got a feeling this offseason is going to come and go and the Braves are not going to make a move.
The Braves already made one move—they got LHP Eric O’Flaherty.
Patience my good man, spring training is still over 3 months away. FW will make some moves. It’s guaranteed that some here will not feel all warm & fuzzy about whatever moves are made. GUARANTEED!
By Chipper 4 President & MVP
November 25, 2008 12:48 AM | Link to this
Im with you DOB. I think the Braves will trade for Peavy before its all said and done. If the rumors are true about the braves getting Furcal im all for it. He wont have the power Escobar will one day have, but hes got the speed to be a big force in the #1 spot in the order, and will cause distractions on base. In his last season for the Braves Furcal stole 46 bases.
And for all the people on here wanting to get Javier Vazquez, hes been in the majors 11 years and hes only had a winning record 6 years, and high ERAs every year it seems.
Year Team W L ERA 1998 Montreal Expos 5 15 6.06
1999 Montreal Expos 9 8 5.00
2000 Montreal Expos 11 9 4.05
2001 Montreal Expos 16 11 3.42
2002 Montreal Expos 10 13 3.91
2003 Montreal Expos 13 12 3.24
2004 New YorkYankees 14 10 4.91
2005 Arizona Diamondbacks 11 15 4.42
2006 Chicago White Sox 11 12 4.84
2007 Chicago White Sox 15 8 3.74
2008 Chicago White Sox 12 16 4.67
I wonder if we could get Joe Saunders or Ervin Santana from the Angels. If the Angels dont resign Texeria, we could send Kotchman back to LA in a deal for one of those guys and sign Adam Dunn to play 1st base. And for the guy who talked earlier about people trying to put random guys at 1st base. When CameronC said sign Dunn to play first, Adam Dunn has played over 100 games at 1st base and he played 19 games there this past season. And as big as the guy is, he would be better suited at 1st than the OF.
By gotigers72
November 25, 2008 12:53 AM | Link to this
Someone please explain to me why a bench coach or even a GM who is his boss, would not have a serious talk with Bobby about leaving Frenchy in a position in the batting order where he comes up to the plate with that large number of runners on base, yet continues with the horrid numbers game after game as far as moving those runners along. Yet is still left anywhere above 7th place [or even 8th]? I know he is one of the greatest managers EVER, and I do mean that, but that is just s**t for brains managing. You just can’t leave a player there that is not producing AT ALL.
The worst part about it is he left Andruw at clean up the year before when the only thing he was cleaning up [obviously] was his freakin’ plate. Come on BC, don’t you ever read a stat sheet? Or are those boogers obscuring the numbers? Haven’t you learned how to roll and flick? Or use a used gum wrapper? Or the best alternative, don’t pick to start with [or use a kleenex?]
What happened to the cojones on the GM?
By Deep Throat
November 25, 2008 1:01 AM | Link to this
Mark Bowman’s Braves’ mailbag yesterday:
With Jeff Francoeur, the Braves already have a Quentin-like gamble to place in their outfield.
Bwhahahaha! Like the out-machine is going to put up a .394 OBP like Quentin did in 2008!
By David O'Brien
November 25, 2008 1:02 AM | Link to this
We’ll have to agree to disagree on the Wings.N8
Disagree on what, that Band on the Run was a good album? Geez, man, do you have to disagree on everything like this out of principle? Do you actually own the album or have you listened to it from end to end, ever?
By the way, not that it’s important or anything, but it wasn’t “the Wings.” It was Wings. Paul McCartney and Wings.
(Don’t take this the wrong way, but I just realized I’m sitting here at 1 a.m., debating the merits of a good album, Band on the Run, with a guy who considers Van Wilder to be a funnier movie than Animal House.)
By phil
November 25, 2008 1:03 AM | Link to this
With the progression of Tommy Hanson I think the Braves most pressing need this off-season is bringing in a power bat. Hitting is generally easier to come by then pitching and we still have plenty of young ML ready pitchers to develop. Why not get the bat first and then sign a mid tier SP or two who can give you some innings and keep you in the game. Hudson should be back in 2010, hopefully at full strength. With him, Hanson and JJ you’ll have a fairly strong rotation. Morton still has a good bit of promise too. Lets face it, we arent likely to win in 2009 with the Phillies and Mets so strong. If we hold onto our young guys we have a good shot at putting a very strong team together in 2010 and beyond. Don’t forget we’ll also have a high draft pick this summer to add to our young talent. Add a big bat for entertainment purposes and then let the kids play this year.
By braves11p4p
November 25, 2008 1:05 AM | Link to this
DOB-Have you heard any insider/grapevine rumors about the Braves going after Dunn or Pat “The Bat”
Thanks
By BA
November 25, 2008 1:11 AM | Link to this
I would like to take this opportunity to agree with the earlier post that featured two compelling suggestions-
I too would like to see Mike Hanson start the season in Atlanta’s rotation.
I also agree on letting Mike Hampton walk to free up the funds to resign John Smoltz and Will “the dude” Ohman.
It would, in fact, sure up the bullpen.
Sure it up indeed.
By N8
November 25, 2008 1:23 AM | Link to this
DOB
“Geez, man, do you have to disagree on everything like this out of principle?”
No. Was just saying that I never really cared for that album. Nothing more, nothing less. Lighten up.
“Do you actually own the album or have you listened to it from end to end, ever?”
No. Why would I own it. I didn’t like it. Yes, listened to it many times. My parents owned it. Do you really think I would make Simon and Garfunkel or Loggins and Messina references, because me (an self proclaimed metal head child of the 80’s music scene), CHOSE to listen to that music? Believe it or not, my parents didn’t (and still don’t), like Whitesnake.
“By the way, not that it’s important or anything, but it wasn’t “the Wings.” It was Wings. Paul McCartney and Wings.”
You are correct, it’s not important. But since you insist on nitpicking (I’ll assume for the sake of arguing with me), I forgot to add the word “subject” or “topic” to the end of the sentence.
What I meant to imply, was that we’ll have to agree to disagree on whether I (we) enjoyed THE music he made with Wings.
And since were now resorting to nitpicking how things are typed, you stated earlier:
“Not the Beatles and Led Zep, but some good stuff..”
Shouldn’t it have been stated The Beatles? LOL! Turnabout is fair play, right?
“(Don’t take this the wrong way, but I just realized I’m sitting here at 1 a.m., debating the merits of a good album, Band on the Run, with a guy who considers Van Wilder to be a funnier movie than Animal House.)”
Why would I take that the wrong way? EVERYTHING that I stand for with music, movies and any form of entertainment, is that the personal enjoyment is in the eyes and ears of the one being entertained.
You like Animal House and Band on the Run. I prefer Van Wilder and The Beatles.
Where’s the problem in discussing what we all like (and dislike), on a blog where there is very little new Braves news to discuss (unless we want to beat the Jake Peavy conversation like the dead horse it is), and the blog-master chooses to open the “music and movies” can of whoop azz?
Why does somebody (you and I included) have to be “right” about what is good music and what is a good movie?
I didn’t get them memo/email that we all had to agree.
No offense taken, and none intended.
By mr baseball
November 25, 2008 1:39 AM | Link to this
Trading for Peavy will just as likely do more damage to the Braves than good with the loss of Escobar & whatever prospects are involved in the deal.
Most of the free agent names being tossed about here are gambles, whether hitters (Dunn, Burrell) or pitchers (Burnett, Lowe).
If you’re going to spend big money on a free agent, spend it on someone you know is going to produce.
Mark Teixeira.
The Braves need a cleanup hitter, preferably someone who doesn’t hit lefty. Given the team’s overall lack of power and excess of lefty hitters, Kotchman is not the best fit in this lineup. Package him with some second level prospects & see what kind of starter you can acquire from 1 of 4 or 5 AL teams in need of a starting 1B.
With Tex & McCann, the Braves could also include Flowers in a package that might get them a front line starter WITHOUT dealing someone like Escobar.
Then take what money you have left and see what pitching is available past the elite status & maybe add a left fielder who won’t cost nearly what Dunn & Burrell would command (Ibanez, maybe).
Maybe the Padres will cave like they did when they finally unloaded McGriff without the Braves including Klesko in the deal. But any trade that involves Escobar and will force the Braves to spend bucks on a SS to replace him does not make sense, even for a pitcher the quality of Peavy.
By Mitchie-san
November 25, 2008 3:24 AM | Link to this
Hmmm. I am bored at work and looked up baseball on Howstuffworks.com. Each page has old pictures of the Braves in it. Russ Ortiz, Javy Lopez, Marcus Giles. Whomever wrote it must be a Braves fan.
By Hiawatha Terrell Wade
November 25, 2008 4:19 AM | Link to this
Syracuse will be a good test for your Jayhawks. Cuse has looked real good so far this year. That Big East is a monster.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 25, 2008 7:13 AM | Link to this
New blurb by Heyman over at SI…
Checked in on the Jake Peavy Watch today with Kevin Towers. The San Diego Padres GM isn’t giving up hope that he can find a new home for Peavy, one of the game’s best righthanded pitchers whose salary is not too big for the Padres’ diminishing payroll. So I won’t give up asking about it. Towers disagreed with me that the best chance for a deal might still be the Braves. At the moment, he appears to be favoring the Cubs’ chances.
“I think there’s a chance of maybe putting together a deal with Chicago,” Towers said. “At least I know he’s willing to go there.”
But in the same breath, Towers added that he didn’t anticipate anything happen anytime soon, and explained why.
Towers mentioned two complications. One is that the Cubs’ ownership situation is unsettled (there could be a sale, though there’s a lot of doubt now whether anyone interested will want to come up with the cash in this economy). The other complication is that they will probably need a third team to do a deal with the Cubs.
While Towers likes their prospects, he apparently doesn’t love them. He liked pitching prospect Jose Ceda, but he was already sent to the Marlins for reliever Kevin Gregg.
Those are some very real complications with the Cubs.
But guess what? There’s a complication with the Braves as well.
Towers agreed that they were once close to a deal with the Braves (he wouldn’t reveal the exact trade discussed but some Braves’ names bandied about included shortstop Yunel Escobar, outfield prospect Gorkys Hernandez and young pitchers Jo-Jo Reyes, Charlie Morton and Blaine Boyer) but that things broke off after Atlanta set a deadline and the sides couldn’t come to terms. However, Towers now thinks the Braves’ unwillingness to change Peavy’s contract to extend his no-trade provision beyond 2010 would have scuttled the deal, anyway.
“The tough thing with Atlanta is that they don’t have anyone with a full no-trade. For Jake, that’s a must,” Towers said. “Ultimately, even if we agreed on players, that might have been a stumbling block.”
Towers hasn’t talked to the Braves in two weeks. And he hasn’t talked lately to the third team said to be in the mix, the Dodgers, either. So the original list of five possible teams that Peavy would approve a trade to is looking a little thin right now (in addition to the Cubs, Braves and Dodgers, the other two are the Astros, who apparently didn’t have the prospects to make a deal, and the Cardinals, who didn’t feel they had the need to make such a trade).
“I’m not opposed to trading within the division,” Towers said. But he speculated that that the Dodgers had too much going on right now to conceive of putting it all aside to make a monster trade like this. The Dodgers have two infield openings, they have the Manny free agent situation, they have the CC Sabathia question, and now they have two possible openings in the rotation after top young starter Chad Billlingsley broke his leg on a patch of ice in Pennsylvania.
Towers could see restarting talks with the Dodgers. Not now, but much later.
So in summary, the Peavy situation, which looked like it might find a resolution by now, may drag on for a while.
Not sure why Towers keeps mentioning the no trade thing…personally, I highly doubt it would be a deal breaker for the Braves….as has been mentioned on here by DOB and others…
By tr
November 25, 2008 7:54 AM | Link to this
Copy-boy, Copy-boy!!! Stop the presses, Stop the presses!!!
This just in from MSN/FoxSports:
“MLB Scoop: Braves interested in Burnett?”
Who woulda thunk it???
On a(n even) lighter note - I like BOTH Paul McCartney & Wings’ “Band on the Run” AND “Animal House”, classics both! But what do I know? I like “Big,” “My Cousin Vinny,” “The Shawshank Redemption,” Jethro Tull’s “Aqualung,” and Jackson Browne’s “Late For the Sky,” obviously a tasteless idiot, huh!?!?!
By tr
November 25, 2008 8:06 AM | Link to this
P.S… I wonder if Buzz Capra is feeling better? If so, maybe he’d be the “top-of-the-rotation” guy we’re looking for. And maybe Biff Pocaroba could handle the back-up catcher gig until Bruce Benedict is done reffing college basketball!?!?!
By the way, for those wondering, it was a mix of grape and black cherry!
And I’ve been meaning to add: A fair number of baseball experts (Rosenthal, Gammons, etc… mentioned the ‘08 Braves as being World Series contenders (before the injury bug hit). Why all the doom and gloom???
If the team (FW) picks up anything close to his stated objectives in the off season, I can’t see why we wouldn’t be right back in the thick of things!!!
In the meantime, enjoy the process!!!
By rmf
November 25, 2008 8:22 AM | Link to this
The Heyman article, while downgrading the Braves’ chances, also pretty clearly shows that they have made the best offer of the “five” teams and shown the most interest. I don’t see any of the other teams on Peavy’s list making as good an offer as the Braves and the Cubs seem far more interested in getting a new hitter than in landing Peavy.
Towers also knows he can publicly say that the Braves will not give a no-trade because he knows Wren is not going to publicly say what he would do one way or another and put himself in a box with existing Braves players or other free agents if he does not land Peavy. I am sure Wren and the Braves gave a lot of thought as to how to deal with Peavy’s no-trade and know that they would have to do something about it, either leave it in place or buy it out in some form.
Towers can clearly spin this to make himself look better, but it still looks like the Braves are the only game in town. It seems to me that if Peavy does not expand his list of acceptable teams, he will end up with the Braves at the end of the day and, now that the Braves look like serious players in the Burnett sweepstakes, Towers may have to move relatively soon.
By ernesto
November 25, 2008 8:34 AM | Link to this
Pat the Bat added to a team with Frenchy?
Well, you wouldn’t have any idea what kind of production to expect from your corner OFs, but it would be enough to turn around the economic downturn, at least for a company like Tums.
By TommyP
November 25, 2008 8:34 AM | Link to this
DOB: Read recently where Sheets’ agent commented how he might need to take a 1 year or 2 year deal to prove that he’s durable and deserving of a long term contract.
With Burnett being such a risk as well as Sheets, would the Braves consider giving Sheets a 1 year deal instead of giving Burnett the longer 4 or 5 year deal?
I figure they’re both equally risky but I’ll take the shorter contract if we’re going to sign either.
Thoughts?
By Shaun
November 25, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this
TommyP, why would Ben Sheets even consider a one-year deal when I’m sure there are teams out there willing to give him more?
ernesto, the only thing wrong with Burrell is defense and baserunning, plus he’s a little older than you’d like for a player with his skill set (which may be enough reasons to avoid him, but there is nothing wrong with his offense).
He does the important things quite well: He gets on base and he slugs.
mr baseball, with Boras as his agent and the Red Sox interested in his services, it would likely take a historically huge offer to sign Teixeira, and frankly it’s not worth it for the Braves.
By Marty
November 25, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this
Since we’re talking about movies, with Thanksgiving looming near, I have to mention one of the funniest movies of all time — Planes, Trains & Automobiles with Steve Martin and John Candy. I’ll probably watch it for the 50th time or so this week.
By David O'Brien
November 25, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this
TommyP, if the market for Sheets is so thin that he’d actually take a one-year deal, then I’d imagine the Braves would make him an offer. But given that teams like the Yankees might have difficulty signing the top guys they want, Sheets could end up getting a multi-year offer from someone. We’ll have to wait and see. A lot of this stuff will become a lot clearer in the first couple of weeks in December.
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 25, 2008 9:06 AM | Link to this
Towers is a bumbling boob. How can you be a GM and not know if the player you are attempting to trade would accept a deal contengent on either having or not having a no-trade clause? You have to know that before hand or you could possibly be wasting your time talking to anyone. It’s as simple as this, “Hey Jake, of the 5 teams you agreed to be traded to, would you give up your no-trade clause? How about if they guaranteed your 5th year option?”
To be a good GM, you have to know when to hold ‘em and know when to fold ‘em. Towers knows neither.
By David O'Brien
November 25, 2008 9:06 AM | Link to this
DOB-Have you heard any insider/grapevine rumors about the Braves going after Dunn or Pat “The Bat”Braves11p4p
No, I have not.
By David O'Brien
November 25, 2008 9:10 AM | Link to this
Hiawatha Terrell Wade: Yes, ‘Cuse will test the young Jayhawks. I’m afraid they might wipe the floor with them, this early on. Washington was really KU’s first game (their two previous games were against nothing teams) and they’re playing a handful of freshmen with almost zero college-level experience. That said, they looked good last night, especially big soph Cole Aldrich.
Big East is, indeed, extremely deep this year. UConn is scary.
By David O'Brien
November 25, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this
OK, time go get over to Buckhead for my always-fun visit to the periodontist.
By Tsu Yuan Nieh
November 25, 2008 9:19 AM | Link to this
I watched couple games Hanson pitched. He is not near ready, I feel he IS ready.
He has good command for his curve ball and keeps the fastball low, which is hard thing to do on consistent basis. I could not tell his change-up from the angle plus the screen on MLB.com is very small but if he threw any, they look very similar to his fastball and he throws strikes on that pitch as well.
I watched those Desert Dogs, they are not bad hitters. In fact, they looked just as good as MLB hitters except the ability to hit high pitches, but they could not do anything to Hanson, that proves how good he is.
I say put him in spring training and see how he can cope with pressure and how mature he is. If Braves cannot make any significant deal, just get Jordon Schafer and Hanson out there if they can perform in spring training. I think they can surprise many people. That is two holes filled up.
If Braves want to gamble, offer 80+ to sign Burnnet. I think it is stupid to trust him though. Otherwise, just save the 40 millions and promote the young guys. If there is no significant signing, the rotation look likes, Hanson, JJ, Campillo, John/Tom/Mike, JoJo/Charlie/Two James. They won’t get us to playoff but it is about to get some of them ready.
Lineup is weak with: Josh, Gregory, Yunel, Chipper, McCann, Kelly, Jeff, Casey and some one from LF. They have very few power but 1-2-3 hitters has nice speed. Bobby can work his magic on moving the mid of the line-up. The thing is if Chipper gets hurt again and pitchers pitching around McCann, they won’t do much of damage.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 25, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this
Marty—
Thanks! Love the “army men” theory—that’s a good one!
cabravesfan—
Exactly. What’s wrong with Kotchman? Give him a full year—I think we’re gonna like him.
Gotta go. Just stopped by for a quick reply to the comments I missed last night (sorry, Marty…yours was at 9:28…I usually get those early ones, but I never got back on last night).
By TN Johnson
November 25, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this
Listened to the new Deerhunter album a few times. It reminds me of MGMT’s latest effort. Deerhunter seems more subtle, but i think they’re similar, which in my mind is a good thing.
By Shaun
November 25, 2008 9:33 AM | Link to this
18 Wheels of Love, does Towers really not know if Peavy would accept a deal without a no-trade clause? According to one quote from Towers posted on this very blog, Towers knows Peavy wants the no-trade clause.
Of course, you can imagine a scenario where Towers doesn’t know for sure. I mean, I’m sure Peavy and his agent would like a no-trade clause but maybe they would accept a trade without it and are not going to make that known. I would imagine Peavy and his agent want the best deal possible, which probably means a no-trade clause so that Peavy has to approve any trade.
Towers has been a GM for a while and GMs are pretty intelligent people. I’d bet he know how to negotiate a trade with a player with a no-trade clause.
By GermanBravesFan
November 25, 2008 9:39 AM | Link to this
Ernesto: Pat the Bat added to a team with Frenchy?
People behind home plate would have to wear scarves in July, so that they wouldn’t catch colds from the draft of all the whiffs…
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 25, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this
Sahun: I understand Towers is trying not to say too much and play it coy during interviews…but it just seems like he says a lot of things that, to me, would be common knowledge if you were a GM attempting to trade your best player.
By Efrim
November 25, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this
Furcal being offered a contract with the Braves before they even deal Escobar? Strange indeed.
It seems like the timing won’t work out for Furcal. He isn’t a Type A or Type B free agent this year, so I think he may be the first top tier player to sign. I don’t think this Peavy deal is going to get done before the winter meetings, and I can’t imagine Furcal waiting till lthen to sign if he already has a four year deal on the table.
By Fan-coeur (Frenchy has heart)
November 25, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this
Interesting how I go to sleep and come back to read that John McCain is hitting cleanup for us and that Adam Dunn will play first base for us.
McFann, what’d’I miss?
Tomas Love your lineup but don’t like your rotation. Nope. And how are we getting Jermaine Dye again? Oakland wants Furcal badly, and a dozen other suitors out there, how are we getting him again?
Whoever thinks Band on the Run is not a good album is crazy. Period.
Aww, 10Paul you’re no fun. Lohse will REPEAT, I said it first. Whoever he’s playing with. I don’t care what you say. He sucked for Minnesota I don’t care. This is the NL, sheesh (sorry I used your line, McFann). He was pretty good for Cincy and now St.Lou. He’ll have another solid year. Besides, he’d make a better option than Jorge Campillo or Bennett or Chuck James or Charlie Morton or Jo-Jo Reyes. You know it. I told you I didn’t mention him as a number 1, but better than every number 4 or 5 the Braves have to offer, not counting Mike Hampton.
By jetsgrn5
November 25, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this
can somebody tell me why the braves are not going after CC???? it does not make sense to me not to if they are going to spend 25+ million and prospects to get peavy and a shortstop why not just make CC an offer? cc would cost less in money and prospects to get..
By Shaun
November 25, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this
18 Wheels of Love, to tell you the truth, I haven’t followed the Peavy trade talk religiously, so I haven’t read every quote. But I haven’t seen any highly unusual quotes from Towers that would give me an idea that he is clueless. Maybe you can provide some examples. (Not trying to be a smart a*. I’m really not.)
By Lew
November 25, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this
Good Morning Denizens-We may not have a White Christmas, but Vermont got pretty much guaranteed a White Thanksgiving last night. 6 inches of wet white stuff on the ground leading to the first (likely of many) $30 driveway plow jobs today. “Tis the season, apparently. Fa la la la la.
N8=got to agree with DOB on the Wings thing. Where’s all the love for Jimmy McCulloch, Wings pretty @$$ kicking guitarist? Never heard Junior’s Farm, Beware My Love, or Helen Wheels? The Dude rocked quite profusely. Band on the Run, Venus and Mars and the double live album Wings Over America were some pretty damned good albums-like David said-not the Beatles, but pretty close. McCartney’s Flaming Pie was pretty good, as well.
Was looking through the wall of music for some things to burn for Flange and ran into some good blues CD’s. Found an album of Peter Greene covers called Green and Blues by Bernie Marsden, some old Gary Moore and a couple of blues albums by Mountain guitarist Leslie West-good driving blues covers of Buddy Guy, Freddie and Albert King tunes. West was one of the best guitarists I’ve ever seen in concert and was once described by Pete Townsend’s agent as the best guitarist in the business, back in the day. I’m not a Howard Stern fan, but if nothing else, he brought West back from the hall of obscurity a few years back. Good stuff for y’all Blues afficianadoes.
By Original Jon
November 25, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this
jetsgrn5 Because the Braves cannot afford to give a contract of that magnitude for that many years to just 1 player.
By Steve from OH
November 25, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this
So I’m cruising around ESPN.com this morning and the SportsNation question is actually a good one:
Will Greg Maddux be the first unanimously elected player to the HOF? He should be, but I’ll say he won’t. Thoughts?
By kdbanks
November 25, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this
Correct me if I am wrong, but whoever trades for Peavy will be responsible for his contract as is, unless Peavy and the new team agree to changes. So the question of whether or not his new team would give him a no trade clause is irrelevant.
It’s not up to the new team; it’s already in the contract.
Now I suppose someone could guarantee the last year of the deal in exchange for removing the clause, but it’s still up to Peavy to decide.
So if the Braves get him, the get him and his contract which includes the no trade.
Or am I missing something.
By TommyP
November 25, 2008 10:22 AM | Link to this
Shaun: Not saying it will reach that point but his agent said something to the effect that they wouldn’t rule out a 1 year signing to setup a big time contract next year.
This is also from a Jerry Crasnick article:
“Even if Sheets is over the specific injury that caused him to miss time this year, I think his market will be dampened by the fact that this was another in a series of ailments that have plagued him throughout his career,” said one American League executive. “I suspect any club to be wary of the track record and for him to wind up with a shorter deal than any of the upper-tier free agents this winter — certainly Sabathia, but even Burnett, despite his issues, and Lowe, despite his age.”
It’s been done before by several athletes…they look at the market, see that, say, a 4 year $40 million contract isn’t what they have in mind and sign for 1 year to prove they’re worth the long term contract.
He’s going to get 3-4 year offers but that doesn’t mean he has to take them.
By Marty
November 25, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this
jetsgm5 - Sabathia frankly has a worse track record than Peavy and is probably a bigger health risk (or at least as much so) due to his size — without even getting into the possibility of arm problems. Sabathia is also likely to get a 6-7 year deal, which is longer than it makes sense for the Braves to give right now.
By Jeff R
November 25, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this
Hanson is a stud. The numbers that DOB writes about are beyond dominant. Of course, he hasn’t faced major league bats yet, at least, not in real game situations. Not suggesting the kid can’t play on the major league level, but there will likely be a little learning curve when he’s finally up. I’d say a fair bet is that he makes the opening day roster. A better bet is a June call up.
By DAP
November 25, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this
jetsgrm5 actually, im with you. id rather keep escobar and make a big offer to one of the top free agents than lose escobar, pay peavy, and then pay another SS. i think this should be, and will be considered when making the deal.
By Dan
November 25, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
DAP
The free agent pitcher you will be getting will be almost a decade older than Jake Peavy with inferior stuff (Derek Lowe).
Or, the free agent pitcher will be older with four years older, with an injury riddled career that has only allowed him two good seasons (AJ Burnett).
No thanks. I would rather trade Escobar, pay a SS, and have the services of a legit ace at below market value for 5 years.
By Fan-coeur (Frenchy has heart)
November 25, 2008 11:05 AM | Link to this
The madness!!! The suspense!!
*Another false alarm? Furcal tied to 4-year offer from Braves Getty Images
Another day and another report from foreign newspaper about a four-year deal involving Rafael Furcal. Impacto Deportivo report that indicated the Atlanta Braves have offered Furcal a four-year, $52 million deal, according to MLB.com.
MLB.com noted: While the Braves have expressed interest in Furcal, they aren’t currently in position to extend him an offer and they won’t be unless they trade shortstop Yunel Escobar or second baseman Kelly Johnson.
There’s certainly a chance the Braves may eventually trade either Escobar or Johnson. But by the time they do so, Furcal may have already signed with the A’s, Giants, Dodgers or another team that has been courting him. If this occurs, the Braves would turn their attention toward Edgar Renteria, who was inaccurately linked to a two-year offer from the Giants on Monday, just a few hours after Furcal’s agent, Paul Kinzer, said there was no truth to an El Caribe report that stated Furcal had received a four-year offer from the A’s .
Source: MLB.com*
By Random
November 25, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this
Native American Heritage Day passed into law
Friday after Thanksgiving will be designated as day of tribute
The Native American Heritage Day Act 2008
• Designates Friday, November 28, 2008, as Native American Heritage Day
• Encourages the people of the United States, as well as federal, state and local governments and interested groups and organizations, to observe such day with appropriate programs, ceremonies and activities, including activities related to:
- The historical status of Native American tribal governments as well as the present day status of Native Americans;
- Native American cultures, traditions and languages; and
- The rich Native American cultural legacy
“Native Americans have been seeking a day of recognition since 1912. This day honors the original Native Americans, their strengths, wisdom and fight for freedom, and it recognizes the continued vitality and beauty of the Native American cultures.”
Does anyone here think it’s past time the Atlanta Braves organization changed their name? Maybe to something other than an offensive racial/ethnic stereotype?
Me, too!
I’d like to nominate for your consideration the “Atlanta Thunderbirds”, retaining the Native American theme and perpetuating Atlanta’s sports birds theme (Falcons, Hawks, Thrashers, Knights, etc).
Thunderbirds are one of the few cross-cultural elements of Native North American mythology. Stories of Thunderbirds are found among the Plains Indians, as well as among Pacific Northwest, the Illini, Ojibwa, and Northeastern Tribes. Thunderbird mythology is found among the Early European Tribes also, but readily apparent traces are masked by later cultures. Thunderbird is a very large bird, with feathers as long as a canoe paddle. When he flaps his wings, he makes thunder and the great winds. When he opens and shuts his eyes, he makes lightning. In stormy weather, he flies through the skies, flapping his wings and opening and closing his eyes. [Angelfire]
Across many North America indigenous cultures, the Thunderbird carries many of the same characteristics. It is described as a large bird, capable of creating storms and thundering while it flies. Clouds are pulled together by its wingbeats, the sound of thunder made by its wings clapping, sheet lightning the light flashing from its eyes when it blinks, and individual lightning bolts made by the glowing snakes that it carries around with it. In masks, it is depicted as many-colored, with two curling horns, and, often, teeth within its beak. [Wikipedia]
Whadday’all think?
By Lew
November 25, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this
KD Banks-Sorry Dude, but I think you’re missing something. In order for the Padres to trade Peavy, he must waive the no-trade clause. This, I believe, negates it.
By rammerjammer
November 25, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this
Before everyone hates on Frank Wren, keep in mind he can’t FORCE free agent pitchers to sign with us. And, chances are, the best ones won’t because other teams have more to spend and didn’t lose 90 games last season. So let’s keep it real.
If Frank HAS made a blunder, it’s in telling the world he needed two pitchers and a slugging outfielder. I don’t think Homeboy Upstairs would’ve been so forthright. It sorta sets Frank up for failure if he doesn’t hit his own stated goals.
Would’ve been more prudent to say “we’re looking for pitching help, like everyone else” and fly under the radar.
Either way, it won’t have an impact on the people with whom he’s working. The impact is with media and fans, eagerly waiting to announce a verdict.
By DAP
November 25, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this
dan
we could make an offer to sabathia. 5 years $26mil per. (peavy’s average salary plus $10mil per year for a SS, and, that $10mil for a SS is a conservative estimate, if the frucal rumors are true)
thats a pretty good offer. or, we could sign oliver perez, and a guy like braden looper for 5 years each. not an ace, but will still give you more production than one pitcher, and we keep escobar.
no. if escobar is in the trade, than we need to go cheap on a SS, not spend even close to $10mil. it does not make sense.
By jetsgrn5
November 25, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this
sure hes a health risk but so is peavy - and they would also be getting a shortstop with back problems if they sign frucal.
By jetsgrn5
November 25, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this
i am not saying they should not go after peavy - i am just saying if they can not get peavy why are they not even considering cc
By ernesto
November 25, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this
Shaun, You’re right there’s nothing “wrong” with Pat the Bat’s offense, unless there’s a chance that his wacky .209 2003 campaign springs its ugly head again.
I was envisioning him pulling a 2003 at the same time Frenchy pulled another 2008 - YIKES!!!!
Still he’s .250-ish hitter who strikes out alot. Just not sure that’s the answer for this team, given its current make up.
By Random
November 25, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this
I know, I know —
the [Boston] Braves, incidentally, were not named AFTER any Native Americans but were rather named after a greasy politican named James Gaffney, who became team president and was apparently called the Brave of Tammany Hall. [JoePoz]
December 13, 1911: The Boston Rustlers (formerly the Doves) are bought by New York politician James E. Gaffney and former player, now attorney, John Montgomery Ward. The team will be called the Braves because of Gaffney’s Tammany Hall connections. [BaseballLibrary]
However, Gaffney himself was nicknamed for a Native American:
The team became the Braves for the first time in 1912. Their owner, James Gaffney, was nicknamed “the Brave of Tammany Hall”. Tammany Hall’s symbol was an Indian chief named Tammany. [Wiki.Answers]
So there.
By Deep Throat
November 25, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this
Does anyone here think it’s past time the Atlanta Braves organization changed their name?
Hell no!
By DAP
November 25, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this
random Does anyone here think it’s past time the Atlanta Braves organization changed their name? Maybe to something other than an offensive racial/ethnic stereotype?
you arent serious, are you? how is “braves” offensive, or even a stereotype? it isnt.
i, for one, wish they would bring back knockahoma, and my favorite symbol of the braves was that screaming (or laughing?) indian.
to answer your question, no.
By The Market
November 25, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
Heavy on rumors.
Light on action.
It is November 25th Frank.
Get moving.
By Braveheart
November 25, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
Sabathia frankly has a worse track record than Peavy and is probably a bigger health risk (or at least as much so) due to his size — without even getting into the possibility of arm problems.
To me, there is little more disgraceful than a fat athlete, but how many innings did David Wells throw and how many games did David Wells win after the age of 30 with that big bloated body of his? Based oin Wells, I’m not sure C.C.’s body can be really held against him … and he’s never really shown the arm woes that Peavy has.
By Lew
November 25, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this
Random-No. How is an acknowledement of the Native American’s warrior class a slur? Redskins, maybe, but not Braves, Indians, Seminoles or Fighting Illini.
By kdbanks
November 25, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this
Lew - that makes sense. Thanks.
Random - Braves isn’t an offensive term - why would we change it? I’m large part NA myself, and I see nothing wrong with the term - in fact, its an honorable recognition. It is no different then Chiefs or Warriors. Do people from the royal family get upset at the Kings? What about people in Congress and the Senators? Same deal.
Unlike the NFL team in Washington D.C. whose name is a racial slur with a bloody history of hatred behind it. That one should have been changed a long, long time ago.
By Braveheart
November 25, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this
I was envisioning him pulling a 2003 at the same time Frenchy pulled another 2008 - YIKES!!!!
And while Andruw did a 2007 or maybe a 2008. Oooh, that be fugly.
By DAP
November 25, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this
i could understand an argument about the redskins, but definetly not the braves.
By Lew
November 25, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this
kd banks-No problem, Dude. I THINK that’s accurate info, but in MLB, who knows?
By Chop Chop
November 25, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this
Random,
I think the wackos in the Braves’ PR department should give us a “Publix Braves Smallpox Blanket Night” next season. That’ll force a nickname change.
By Thrillhouse44
November 25, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this
Braveheart @ 11:47. Spot-on! I didn’t hear any complaints about the Braves in the late 80’s, but there were plenty of protesters at Game 3 of the 1991 NLCS.
By Robert
November 25, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this
Braves fans just need to move past Peavy. Hes not coming here. Towers doesnt want to trade him to the Braves unless and that reads UNLESS there is a player by the name of Hanson included in the trade. Towers is playing games but Frank Wren pulled out, as well he should. I hope that Towers ends up having to dump Peavy for a couple minor leaguers kinda like the way we lost Millwood a few years ago for Estrada.
The package that the Braves offered for Peavy was very fair and if Towers wants something different more power to them. My hope is that Hanson will be the number 5 starter this year and our #1 for years to come.
By bryan
November 25, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this
Folks, in most native societies a brave is a warrior class adult male - like a “Knight” or a “Samurai” to a certain extent. Take away the mascot - which the Braves have - and you have a social ranking - not a insulting team name.
The Redskins? The is atrocious. I can’t believe it stands up today. The Indians - almost as bad considering the mascot. Both are open for criticism.
The Braves … i think they stand pretty clear of scrutiny on this native issue.
By Lew
November 25, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this
Got some serious snowfall going on up here. They’ve predicted 6-12 inches, but considering we’re at 8 ” and counting already, I’m betting we’ll hit the upper figure. If it keeps snowing like it is now for several more hours, I’m thinking closer to 18-20”. Oh well-the dogs like it. They’re having a blast. So is the snowplow Dude. He’s just defeated his economic doldrums.
By Lee in S GA
November 25, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this
I always thought the controversy centered around the tomahawk on the teams’ jersey more than the name “Braves” as being offensive.
By DAP
November 25, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this
“indians” as bad as “redskins”? i dont think so. not even close.
by the way, im a full-blooded native american. born and raised here.
By DAP
November 25, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this
the white sox are looking for a young pitcher and other playres for dye. does morton or jojo count? jojo and anderson for dye? what do ya’ll think?
By DAP
November 25, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this
I always thought the controversy centered around the tomahawk on the teams’ jersey more than the name “Braves” as being offensive.
……its just silly.
By TennesseePaul
November 25, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this
Based on Wells, I’m not sure C.C.’s body can be really held against him … and he’s never really shown the arm woes that Peavy has
However, turn your head a bit to the left and there sits a very large unmovable Barto Colon.
By Dan
November 25, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this
Please do not dilute this blog talking about renaming the Braves.
If you do not like the name, do not support the team.
By TennesseePaul
November 25, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this
jojo and anderson for dye? what do ya’ll think?
I hope there is a better option for the outfield than Dye. But who knows. Maybe this team will run out on the field in 2009 with Dye in LF, Renteria at short, Randy Wolf, Bronson Arroyo and Kyle Lohse in the rotation, all the prospect traded and tons of cash wrapped up tight in the rotation full of no trade clauses.
By Lee in S GA
November 25, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this
DAP ……its just silly.
Yes it is - but thats certain people. Now as far I’m concern the tomahawk could be in the air flowing towards a deer’s head or better yet another team’s players body, with an arrow close behind directed at whatever and I would have no complaints about it. I am from deep south GA for goodness sakes.
By Deep Throat
November 25, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this
Oh, gimme a break. Does anyone care about this fake issue?
No. No one truly, deep-down cares. Likely 95%+ of Americans don’t give it a second thought. It is just some obnoxious whiners seeking attention whom keep bringing it up.
I remember a scientific opinion poll in an Ohio newspaper two years ago when the Indians were in the playoffs that showed over 90% of American Indians (Native Americans, or whatever) didn’t mind the name or even the mascot (Chief Wahoo.) In fact, more white people actually were offended by the damn name and mascot.
It is SO past time to drop this non-issue. The only ones keeping it alive are, like you said, some tiny interest groups looking for money and publicity.
By Deep Throat
November 25, 2008 12:47 PM | Link to this
More (from Wikipedia’s Washington Redskins’ page):
“Notwithstanding the protests of activists, a 2002 poll commissioned by Sports Illustrated found that 75% of those Native Americans surveyed had no objection to the Redskins name. However, the results of the poll have been criticized due to Sport’s Illustrated’s refusal to provide polling information (i.e. how participants were recruited and contacted, if they were concentrated in one region, if one ethnic group is over represented and the exact wording and order of questions). But in 2004, a poll by the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania essentially confirmed the prior poll’s findings, concluding that 91% of the American Indians surveyed in the 48 states on the mainland USA found the name acceptable and setting out in detail the exact wording of the questions.”
Total non-story.
By rammerjammer
November 25, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this
If the question is…do you want an overpriced, one-year rental outfielder who fails in the clutch…then the answer is Jermaine Dye.
By Robert
November 25, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this
DAP needs to go find another team to route for if he does not like the Atlanta Braves name. There is nothing offensive about it.
By Robert
November 25, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this
DAP needs to go find another team to route for if he does not like the Atlanta Braves name. There is nothing offensive about it.
By Marty
November 25, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this
Braves fans just need to move past Peavy. Hes not coming here. Towers doesnt want to trade him to the Braves unless and that reads UNLESS there is a player by the name of Hanson included in the trade. Towers is playing games but Frank Wren pulled out, as well he should. I hope that Towers ends up having to dump Peavy for a couple minor leaguers kinda like the way we lost Millwood a few years ago for Estrada. Robert
Based on the numerous news stories I’ve read and everything that Dave has told us, Towers has known and understood for quite some time that Hanson would not, under any circumstances, be included in the deal. Towers wants more than what the Braves have offered, which seems unreasonable based on what we know about the Braves’ alleged offer and the small number of potential trade partners for Peavy and the Padres, but I don’t think that Hanson is what’s holding the deal up.
Both with respect to this particular deal and lots of other potential deals, it’s pretty unreasonable to expect much of anything to happen this early in the offseason. The free agency period has just recently started, Thanksgiving is looming near, and the deadline to offer arbitration is about a week away. After December starts, I think that you’ll see more deals happening, both with regard to the Braves and other teams.
By Efrim
November 25, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this
If the question is…do you want an overpriced, one-year rental outfielder who fails in the clutch…then the answer is Jermaine Dye.
Not to pick on this specific statement, but I see a lot of people here not really keen on any outfield option out there currently.
So my question to all is, who do you want out in left field?
Because it is really close to being as important as this “legit ace” we need to acquire. This team desperately needs power in the middle of the lineup. A platoon of Matt Diaz and Brandon Jones simply won’t do.
I guess everyone here is just hoping for Frank Wren to make another Jurrjens trade and lock down a future stud in left for several years to come.
By 22oz
November 25, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this
Braves: not offensive name, not offensive logo
Redskins: offensive name, not offensive logo.
Indians: not offensive name: VERY offensive logo (to native americans, not me.) Believe me, i could care less about being PC, but, tell me you can’t look at that red faced grinning indian and wonder how that gets by? I have thought of funny potential offensive mascots for people of other colors, but i’ll keep em to myself, because i don’t want to be banned. But you see how there’s a double standard here.
By world-B
November 25, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this
DOB, time to give your predictions on tonight’s Shield finale? What happens to Vic and how many of the characters die?
By Cherokee
November 25, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this
Does anyone here think it’s past time the Atlanta Braves organization changed their name? Maybe to something other than an offensive racial/ethnic stereotype?
Me, too! Random
are you a native American? I am and I have no problem with the Braves as a team name. Why would I ? I thought the Redskins name was inappropriate, but there is nothing derogatory about Braves or Indians either for that matter. In fact I don’t think I know any fellow native Americans who have trouble with it. It is usually some white-eyes who pontificate about how bad it is.
By Cherokee
November 25, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this
i, for one, wish they would bring back knockahoma, DAP
now that most of my fellow NAs and I did find offensive and demeaning. Stick that one in your ear white-eyes
By TennesseePaul
November 25, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this
I’d like to nominate for your consideration the “Atlanta Thunderbirds”, … perpetuating Atlanta’s sports birds theme
Why don’t you just pretend it’s 100 years earlier: 1907 to 1910. Call ‘em the Doves again.
When you get off your high horse fill free to come back and cheer for the Braves.
Now, as for respecting heritage and tradition… here is what Dennis Purdy, baseball historian, has to say about it:
The Atlanta Braves— not the Cincinnati Reds, as many believe— can lay claim to being the oldest continuous professional franchise in all of baseball. The team that would become known as the Braves in 1912 got its start just after the Civil War as the Cincinnati Red Stockings, a top-notch amateur team.
In 1868 attorney-entrepreneur Aaron Burr Champion reorganized the team, stocking it with four paid players. By 1869 Champion, through his manager Harry Wright, had completed his search for the best Eastern players money could by, accumulating a whole team of salaried players, all with outside jobs. The 1869-1870 Red Stockings toured the country, playing exhibition games for money, taking on— and destroying —all challengers for most of two years. Newspaper accounts are a bit sketchy, but it appears that the team won about 130 consecutive games over two seasons, with only one tie marring their record before they suffered their first loss at the hands of the Brooklyn Atlantics on June 14, 1870, in front of 9,000 fans. (The game had been tied at 5-5 after nine innings, before the Red Stockings scored two runs in the top of the 11th, but Brooklyn came back with three runs in the bottom of the inning to hand Cincinnati its first-ever loss.)
Over the remainder of the 1870 season, the Red Stockings lost five more games and the wild interest that had followed the team while they remained undefeated soon faded away— and their cash receipts dwindled along with the crowds. New team president A.P.Bronte announced that the team would not be brought back for the 1871 season due to high salary demands, so the majority of the team’s members moved to Boston and joined the new National Association, playing as the Boston Red Stockings. One of the owners of the Cincinnati Red Stockings later admitted that Bronte’s announcement not to bring the team back in 1871 had actually been a bluff in order to drive down player salaries, but the strategy backfired and they lost their powerful team.
The National Association, the first professional baseball league, operated from 1871 to 1875 and was beset by chaos, bankruptcy and organizational nightmares. The transplanted Boston Red Stockings won four pennants in their five years (1872-1875) in the NA, dominating the competition.
I did some more research into this. Turns out the pitcher that blew the lead in the 11th inning of that game June 14th, 1870 was named Wickman Redmon Boyer.
By DAP
November 25, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this
robert DAP needs to go find another team to route for if he does not like the Atlanta Braves name. There is nothing offensive about it.
your and idiot. please dont attribute that crap to me.
rammerjammer do you want an overpriced, one-year rental outfielder who fails in the clutch…then the answer is Jermaine Dye.
hes signed for one year, with an option for another. $11.5mil in 2009, $12mil in 2010. not a one year rental, not over priced…fails in the clutch? here are some situational stats from 2008
doesnt look too bad to me.
By i can't take it anymore
November 25, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this
Interesting thoughts on the name “braves” being an issue. I majored in anthropology and had an upper level class titled Native Americans. this exact subject was debated for two classes and I remember a person of Seminole heritage explaining that the infamous “drum beat” used at braves game isn’t played in the correct rhythm. He found this to be rather upsetting. It was a moving argument, once I saw his perspective and his explanation of his strife with the Braves. The argument can be reduced to the issue of respect. Some people have different values concerning the allocation of respect. Some people don’t understand it, while others don’t know how to use it. Yes, the “braves” name is a hangover from a time in America when the country was less culturally sensitive. Should they be named the Braves? More than likely no. Should Chief nockahoma be a mascot? That’s a big no, and that issue has been addressed. It’s always a tough argument when opposing values collide, making consensus hard to attain. It’s cool that people on the blog are talking about this. Obviously, I am going to love the A-town boys no matter what their name. I’m a romantic, so if the name hurts people, then I say change it, but backlash will ensue.
This has been an awesome offseason blog, you all. Go bravos
By DAP
November 25, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this
cherokee now that (knockahoma) most of my fellow NAs and I did find offensive and demeaning. Stick that one in your ear white-eyes
ha, good one. very hypocritical, and since you dont know me or my ethnicity, very ignorant! and this, based on the convo, funny.
how is knockahoma different than the seminole for FSU, or what if white people got offended because guys dress up like minute men a patriots games?
knockahoma is still my favorite and i buy every braves product i can find with knockahoma on it.
By TennesseePaul
November 25, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
[Former team owner] Soden sold out following the 1906 season to brothers George and John Dovey, whose family had made some money in the Kuntucky coal business beefore it went bad. George then accumulated new wealth from his successful trolley car business in St. Louis. After the brothers took over, they changed the team’s name to the Boston Doves, in their own honor.
…
In mid-1910 [John Dovey] sold the team for $100,000 to an investment group headed by William Hepburn Russell.
Russell, who changed the team name to the Rustlers (in his own honor) in mid-1910, was a Boston attorney who had his hands in a number of business ventures, including construction.
…
Russell had been a bohhood friend of Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain) and had become interested enough in baseball to play for the Hannibal team, said by some to be the best amateur team in Missouir at the time. After the 1911 season, Russell, looking to make a quick buck (75,000 bucks, actually), sold the team for $175,000 to an investment group headed by James Gaffney.
Gaffney, a Tammany Hall-connected businessman, was a former police officer who made his fortune after getting the contract to excavate the Pennsylvania Railroad and tunnel station in New York. He also had a hand in building many of the New York docks. Gaffney had been encouraged to buy out Russell by his friend Frank Farrell, owner of the New York Highlanders (no Yankees). In 1912 Gaffney, who changed the team’s name to the Braves, bought out his two investment partners, taking sole possession of the controlling interest formerly held by Russell.
By Raddad
November 25, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this
Why does it seem that every time there is a new blog there is always a conversation about race???? Give it a rest. First about how the Braves do not have any black players and now about the name. Let it go. If that be the case then everyone should be a fended about everything? The color red or how you tie your shoes! give it a rest.
So are we now on the AJ Burnette watch?
By Raddad
November 25, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this
whoops misspelled Burnett
By kirkinga
November 25, 2008 1:49 PM | Link to this
kd banks,just to add to what has been said in regards to Peavy and his No Trade Clause, waiving a right does not mean the same as renouncing that right.
The specific language of the contract will control, but unless the contract is written in such a way that says waiver=renounce, then the Braves would be bound by all the terms of his present contract.
By J.L.
November 25, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this
When I read Towers comments, I read between the lines that Peavy does’nt want to be traded to the Braves. Don’t give up on Morton so fast. I think the Braves should go after two of that can hit . I’d go with J.J. Morton and Hanson and fill in the blanks for 2009.
By DAP
November 25, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this
a person of Seminole heritage explaining that the infamous “drum beat” used at braves game isn’t played in the correct rhythm. He found this to be rather upsetting.
without knowing the guys reasoning, this sounds ultra-sensitive. i dont think the braves have ever claimed to be a representative of the seminole tribe, or any tribe so what the braves do has nothing to do with them.
The argument can be reduced to the issue of respect. Some people have different values concerning the allocation of respect.
this is a very good point. should people who are not american indians try to understand and respect those cultures? definetly. and they do.
should american indians try to understand that others’ do not show respect- or disrespect- the same way they might, and take that into consideration when being offended? definetly. and they do.
besides, we are talking about something people love here. a sports team. this is not a nickname we give to inmates, or homeless people, or guys who wear socks with sandals. its not negative.
By Braveheart
November 25, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
Random is The Crying Indian:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7OHG7tHrNM
By Random
November 25, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this
Lew (“Redskins, maybe, but not Braves, Indians, Seminoles or Fighting Illini”), kdbanks (“Braves … is no different then Chiefs or Warriors”), Braveheart (“some bored interest group with nothing to do and with no real change it can effectuate”), DAP (“redskins, but definetly not the braves”; *”its just silly”), Thrillhouse44 (“there were plenty of protesters at Game 3 of the 1991 NLCS”), bryan, Deep Throat (“just some obnoxious whiners seeking attention”), TennesseePaul (“get off your high horse”)
Oh, it’s not as fringe, silly or impotent an idea as you are trying to make it sound.
According to local police, 500 people protested at the 1991 World Series pitting the Atlanta Braves against the Minnesota Twins, and 3,000 protested at the 1992 Super Bowl, which featured the Washington Redskins versus the Buffalo Bills. The protest at the Super Bowl was the largest Native American protest since the takeover of Wounded Knee in 1973.
In 2005, the NCAA banned schools from using nicknames and images it deems “hostile and abusive” in postseason play. Included were Florida State University Seminoles, University of Illinois Illini as well as the Braves of Alcorn State University, Bradley University and Chown College (?); and the Indians of Catawba College, Midwestern State University, Indiana University-Pennsylvania, Arkansas State University, University of Louisiana-Monroe, McMurry University and Newberry College.
Some of the schools sued — I haven’t heard what ever became of that.
The University of Wisconsin and University of Iowa have refused to schedule contests against schools that use American Indian nicknames.
Forty years or so ago, Stanford University changed from the Indians to the Cardinal. Recently St John’s University has changed from the Redmen to the Red Storm (Storm => Thunderstorm => Thunderbirds!) and Marquette University has changed from the Warriors to the Golden Eagles (kinda like changing from the Braves to the Thunderbirds!).
(But “Atlanta Doves” is nice too, TP.)
By rammerjammer
November 25, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this
Jermaine Dye has a career .221 BA w/RISP and two outs. Hence, my statement that he fails in the clutch.
Raul Ibanez has a career .287 BA w/RISP and two outs. He succeeds in the clutch.
Efrim, To answer your question, I want Ibanez in left field. Problem is, so do other teams with more money and fewer losses.
Sigh.
By Marty
November 25, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this
Braveheart - Agree with your thoughts on the non-issue of the Braves’ team name.
DOB - What do you see long-term from Jo-Jo Reyes, and are his struggles in the majors a simple matter of immaturity, nerves, etc.? The reason I ask is that with the exception of a few starts in the middle of ‘08, he has really been quite bad at the major-league level so far. I know he’s still young, but it is interesting to see that every time he has gone back to AAA, not only has his ERA dropped, but his walks have dropped as well. That leads me to believe that he may not be what folks often refer to as a “4-A” player (as it seems like Chuck James may be). Thoughts?
By rammerjammer
November 25, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this
If Peavy doesn’t want to go to the Braves - as so many are saying - then why the Sam Hill are the Braves on his list of teams to whom he’d accept a trade?
See, if he doesn’t want to go to Atlanta, all he has to do is tell his agent Atlanta’s off the list. Well, he hasn’t and we aren’t.
THAT should tell you something.
By cabravesfan
November 25, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this
Random
Florida State is allowed to continue using the name because they have received permission from the Seminole tribe from whom they take their name…all the costumes and rituals they use during sporting events have been taught to them and approved by the tribe itself- so the NCAA removed FSU from the list that you are refering to. (This applies to a few other schools as well, including Illinois I believe- the NCAA has agreed to remove any school that receives permission or support from local tribes to use a specific tribal name)
By Because it Matters
November 25, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this
Let it go. If that be the case then everyone should be a fended about everything? Raddad
I believe you meant offended didn’t you?
The problem is that race still matters.Not as it use to be certainly, but it still our country’s birth defect that hasn’t been cured.So while you may feel your race doesn’t effect your life, others don’t and they don’t want to be told by people like you that their perspectives and lives don’t matter. Like it or not the Braves have an image problem within the black(and some in latino) community.May or may not be true that dark skinned players pass through more easily, but they have done a horrible job of perception management.The Escobar trade isn’t going to help that perception, and you can read comments here and believe that there are lots of folks who are itching to see the only dark skinned starter traded. Something about an attitude or being a “hot head”, but many Braves fans of color do wonder if this isn’t code. I know it’s ugly and unpleasant to talk about, and I like reading this blog because it doesn’t tread into such matters, but like it or not, there is that perception among a large segment of Braves fans that if you are not a “hunting and fishing” type, then you likely aren’t going to be a Brave.The same thing with the team name.It doesn’t bother me, but the few Native Americans I know say it offends them.
By Bubdylan
November 25, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this
Animal House vs. Van Wilder? Band on the Run debates? Native American Mascot Re-treads?
Kevin Towers, have you considered the full consequences of your non-actions? Pick up the phone, do the deal, for America.
By Cherokee
November 25, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this
ha, good one. very hypocritical, and since you dont know me or my ethnicity, very ignorant! and this, based on the convo, funny.
how is knockahoma different than the seminole for FSU, or what if white people got offended because guys dress up like minute men a patriots games? DAP
It was supposed to be funny dude. Using hypocrisy to point up same. I find nothing wrong with Seminoles, what in he11 is wrong with a tribe name. I’m mostly Seminole and it doesn’t bother me at all. Knockahoma and that Indians maccot are demeaning stereotypes, thats the difference.
By David O'Brien
November 25, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan, THAT was hilarious. Ain’t it the truth, too….
By the way, for those still wondering: The Braves have made NO offer to Furcal, and almost certainly will not unless and until Escobar or KJ were traded.
By chris from md
November 25, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this
MLB.com is reporting that Pinella says the Cubs are not pursuing Peavy. It seems to me that the Braves are the only option. With the economy, teams that can afford big salaries will not want to part with players from their own organization and add big contracts. In other words, free agents are much more appealing to teams that can afford to take on salary.
I have to believe that if the Braves and Pads can agree on a second pitcher in that original package, the deal will get done. But who makes the first move?
Chris from MD
By David O'Brien
November 25, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this
When I read Towers comments, I read between the lines that Peavy does’nt want to be traded to the Braves.J.L.
Then you (and others) really should stop reading so much between the lines. As Rammerjammer put it succinctly, the Braves are/were on his list of five desirable teams, teams he’d consider waiving his no-trade clause for. What part of that is so difficult for some folks here to understand?
By N8
November 25, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this
Thrillhouse44
“I didn’t hear any complaints about the Braves in the late 80’s, but there were plenty of protesters at Game 3 of the 1991 NLCS”
In all fairness, the purpose of a protest is to be heard/seen. So your message gets to as many people as possible.
Why on earth would somebody wast time protesting at Fulton County Stadium when there were 2000 people in the seats in the 80’s?
Not that the message you’re conveying isn’t correct.
That would be like people protesting anti-war sentiments at the military recruiting post in Wilton ND (population of about 1000 people), as opposed to doing it at the White House.
Besides, in the 80’s the politically correct mantra had just begun. After all Andrew Dice Clay still had a career in the 80’s. That would NEVER happen today.
Sorry to give the appearance of arguing with you. But I’m left with no choice, I do so by principle.
By Kentavo
November 25, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this
JoJo just doesn’t give off the demeanor that: a. he cares b. knows what he’s doing on the mound c. he can adjust to hitters during the course of a game
Didn’t he reject mentoring from Smoltz and Glavine? I think his Braves career will be a short one.
By f.n. hale
November 25, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this
Lew Sorry to weigh in so late but I was reading the previous blog yesterday and asked a question about one of your posts but by the time I posted the new one was up. You made a reference to Tinsley Ellis playing sax with a group. Didn’t he play guitar (and sometimes keyboards) with an Atlanta band called Eric Quincy Tate waaay back in the early 70’s? I used to catch them all over town back then but the memory gets a little fuzzy sometimes.
By Braveheart
November 25, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this
Recently St John’s University has changed from the Redmen to the Red Storm
Yeah, and ever since they became the Red Storm, I have never bought anything from my favorite childhood basketball team. Used to love my shirts when I was a kid of the Indian dribbling a basketball.
Why doesn’t Notre Dame have to change their name? Isn’t the Fightin’ Irish derogatory? Doesn’t it perpetuate the historical image of the Irish as nothing more than trashy drunken street brawlers? I don’t know one Irish lad or lass who wants that name changed. What about all the teams named the Gaels who use leprechaun mascots as if all the Irish run around saying, boyo, quit f$cking me with me lucky charms and me pot ‘o gold?
By Lew
November 25, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this
Did anyone ever complain about the Atlanta Crackers?
By David O'Brien
November 25, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH: I think Maddux has a good chance of being the first unanimous choice to the HOF. Think about this: If he’s named only all but one or two ballots, how’d you like to be that writer getting calls and e-mails and on-camera questions from ESPN, asking to explain his or her vote if Maddux falls just short of unanimous?
It’s a different era with the media proliferation, and in that respect it’s a good thing. If there had been so many reporters and ESPN covering baseball back in the day to chronicle the vote closely, I think guys like Ruth, Hank, Ted Williams and Joe D would’ve been unanimous. Absolutely ridiculous that they weren’t.
By TennesseePaul
November 25, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this
According to local police, 500 people protested at the 1991 World Series pitting the Atlanta Braves against the Minnesota Twins
Yes. And 373,160 people attended the games while nearly 35,680,000 viewers in 22,060,000 households tuned in to support the games, granting the highest TV share in the last 20 years.
The second highest share in 20 years was the 1992 WS (Braves vs Jays) drawing 30,010,000 viewers.
The third highest share in 20 years was the 1995 WS (Indians vs Braves)drawing 28,970,000 viewers.
That’s a total of 94,660,000 viewers compared to 500 arrested protesters.
Fringe: an outer edge; margin; periphery
Documented number of protesters compared to documented number of supporters works out to a 5.3x10-4 percent in protest… that is fringe. And now your horse doesn’t even look that high. Just a little ridiculous.
By Efrim
November 25, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this
MLB.com is reporting that Pinella says the Cubs are not pursuing Peavy.
It really doesn’t matter though. Because Towers will continue to say they are interested. He will continue to do whatever he feels is necessary to get the most out of an offer from the Braves. Even if it means drumming up a rumor that the Angels or Yankees are interested.
By Braveheart
November 25, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this
Why on earth would somebody wast time protesting at Fulton County Stadium when there were 2000 people in the seats in the 80’s?
So, what do they do while they are waiting half a decade for some Native American themed team to get good so that they can get their 15 minutes of fame?
By cabravesfan
November 25, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
In regards to Jake Peavy-
Kevin Towers can say whatever he wants- He thinks Peavy would like to play for the Cubs, He thinks it is a better option because the Braves don’t do No Trade Clauses, whatever…bottom line is He has not sent anything to Peavy to be approved. He has NO IDEA what Peavy will or will not accept until he asks him. Peavy has NOT publically said he does not want to play for the Braves- as DOB and others have pointed out countless times- if he did not want to play for them he would not have put them on his list.
By ColoradoBravesFan
November 25, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this
I am offended by the Yankees. They should have to chnage their name…
By David O'Brien
November 25, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
After all Andrew Dice Clay still had a career in the 80’s. That would NEVER happen todayN8
Oh, really? Maybe you haven’t seen the live acts of David Attell, Louis C.K., Lewis Black….
By crap-wheelie
November 25, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
DOB:
Reading comments from Towers on ESPN.com, it sounds like he would rather trade Peavy to the Cubs for a lesser package than to the Braves. Do you think he would do so just to spite Wren? If the Braves do trade for Peavy, when do you think it will happen? I dread going into next season without a quality rotation. And I fear that’s what’s going to happen if we don’t get Peavy. I don’t believe we can afford quality free agents and no one is going to trade us a starter without demanding Hanson or one of our other blue chip prospects.
By TennesseePaul
November 25, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this
Did anyone ever complain about the Atlanta Crackers
3 people were arrested on a drunken disorderly. They claimed to be protesting. You can never tell with these crackers though.
By Gil In Mechanicsville
November 25, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this
I wonder if some are offended by the fact the Pirates have signed a couple of Indians to minor league contracts after having them attend a tryout. Their names are Singe and Patel. I wonder what tribe they hale from?
By Raddad
November 25, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this
Because It matters
Yes that is what I meant. The Escobar thing. He would be replaced by either Furcal,Cabrera or Renteria. In that particular case I think you are wrong.I do agree race does play a part in daily life. However you can not take back history and you can only apologize so much for a generation that myself and others were not apart of.It was a terrible thing that happend to the Indians and blacks.As a nation we are starting to evolve. If race is now such a huge issue that why in the world did blacks,whites and latino’s and every other person in the the U.S.A. elect the first African American into the most powerful position in the world?
By DAP
November 25, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this
because it matters you can read comments here and believe that there are lots of folks who are itching to see the only dark skinned starter traded.
are you talking about jurjens? youre wrong, i havent seen that on this blog at all. no one with ense wants to trade him.
cherokee It was supposed to be funny dude.
i know, thats what i said….
Knockahoma and that Indians maccot are demeaning stereotypes,
says you.
is elmer fudd demeaning to hunters? is yosemite sam offensive to cowboys? they are cartoons, man. its innocent.
By Gil In Mechanicsville
November 25, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this
Q. How do you drive up the price?
A. Create a sense of loss if the buyer fails to act.
So, do worry, the Braves will have five starting pitchers by opening day.
By Braveheart
November 25, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
I wonder if some are offended by the fact the Pirates have signed a couple of Indians to minor league contracts after having them attend a tryout. Their names are Singe and Patel. I wonder what tribe they hale from?
Red dot or feather?
OK, now that was racist and insensitive…….
By ncscoots
November 25, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this
Didn’t he reject mentoring from Smoltz and Glavine? I think his Braves career will be a short one.
Actually, I think what the kid said was he was overloading on advice, and, as a result, was overthinking instead of just pitching. A little different than “rejecting”.
Whether Reyes can get his head right is a different topic altogether. But throwing lefties with his kind of stuff to the curb, without at least one chance at redemption, probably isn’t a brilliant move.
By Random
November 25, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this
Shaun—
Check it out.
;-)
By TennesseePaul
November 25, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
“The tough thing with Atlanta is that they don’t have anyone with a full no-trade. For Jake, that’s a must,” Towers said. “Ultimately, even if we agreed on players, that might have been a stumbling block.”
—Jon Heyman
Towers is so full of it. There is no way this guy is holding off on lining up a deal because Atlanta might not provide Peavy with what he wants. Something no one will really know until Towers lines up the deal and releases Peavy and Axelrod to talk with the Braves.
Absolute hogwash. How he can honestly say that and then turn around and attempt to shop him to teams in the AL is beyond me. Teams which weren’t on his list. In a league he has repeatedly said he would perfer not to pitch in. And he is worried about lining up a deal with Atlanta because Altanta might not meet Peavy’s demands? Please.
By Bubdylan
November 25, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
They interviewed a Scientologist Native American on B.E.T. last week. As a political conservative, he believes the designated hitter should be removed in favor of the more Marxist methods of the War in Iraq. Pushed for comment, President-Elect Obama only raised a clinched fist high in the air and pardoned Mark Cuban.
Discuss?
By J.D.
November 25, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
DOB, I’m with you in that my Orange will crush Kansas tonight. Too much Flynn and Harris for the young Jayhawks to handle. Won’t be as close as the ‘03 championship, that is for sure.
By Cherokee
November 25, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this
The same thing with the team name.It doesn’t bother me, but the few Native Americans I know say it offends them.Because
Hmmm. Now that is sort of weird, because I know and am related to hundreds of NA at least, and almost none of them is offended by the name Braves. Some by Redskins, but essentially none by Braves. The ones who demonstrated at the games are hard core activists who are always looking for some excuse to be resentful. The numbers protesting at the Braves games were about a quarter of those at the Redskins game. Which shows how much more offensive that derogatory name is. It was a disparaging epithet originally. As others have said it is really pretty much of a non-story for the vast majority of us.
By Raddad
November 25, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this
Do you smell it??? It smells like Kevin Towers just s**t himself by calling everyone bluff on the value of Jake Peavy.
Go Braves!!!!
Sorry if that offended anyone.
By Dan
November 25, 2008 3:08 PM | Link to this
DOB
Do you have any idea if the Braves and Padres had agreed upon the majority of the players to be involved in the trade? What caused talks to break off?
By Cherokee
November 25, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
is elmer fudd demeaning to hunters? is yosemite sam offensive to cowboys? they are cartoons, man. its innocentDAP
sez you
By Because it Matters
November 25, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
Raddad I don’t want to keep the point going really, but I wanted to point out that there is a perception problem concerning the Braves and some of their communities of fans.And not to get political, but Barack Obama ain’t going to walk on water and he isn’t going to solve racism. If he did, little school children wouldn’t be getting kicked off the school bus for the mere mention of his name. You think that family should just “let it go”? Like I said, the Braves name doesn’t bother me, but one of the points of raising the issue is that it does offend some people and they deserve a fair hearing and not to be dismissed. It is that dismissal that is where the legacy of racism still haunts us. It use to be a certain segment could just dismiss the perceptions of those different than them, today it is a bit harder though no impossible to get away with dismissing entire swaths of people away. And Native Americans are not fringe, there’s just not many of them left after all their land was stolen and most of them killed. We should never forget they were here first and have a story to tell, and if they are offended, then based on that history and common descency, I say change the darn name and move on. For some this about the power to say no to the concerns of others. For others, it’s about just trying to get some long overdue respect. It’s not as if the team name hasn’t changed before.No team name is etched in stone, witness the now Rays.
By Random
November 25, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this
This one goes out to …
… Dan!!!
Thanks for getting me back on topic, bud!
Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy Peavy
By Efrim
November 25, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
Raddad
Do you smell it??? It smells like Kevin Towers just st himself by calling everyone bluff on the value of Jake Peavy.
I still think Towers has leverage. Things haven’t even settled in the free agent pitching market. Could be massive chaos if what was perceived to be a given(Yankees signing Sabathia) doesn’t happen.
By Braveheart
November 25, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this
Do you have any idea if the Braves and Padres had agreed upon the majority of the players to be involved in the trade? What caused talks to break off?
Kevin Towers wanted more time to see how many more ships his loose lips could sink.
By brent a.
November 25, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
My understanding is that Towers is working on a three-team deal wherein he trades Peavy to the Braves and the Cubs.
He says it’s the only way he can get a fair price for Peavy, and assure that Jake and his agent will be satisfied.
By Marty
November 25, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
Because it Matters - “They deserve a hearing”? What kind of hearing is that? The Braves are a private business, not a public entity. If people are offended by the name, or the failure to win enough games, or they just don’t like a particular player, then those who are offended have the right not to support that team emotionally or financially. If enough people are offended, then the team will make the changes it feels that it needs to make to assuage the particular concern those people have. Short of that, it is no more of an issue than the Bobby-bashers or those who insist that the Tucker/Dye trade was the worst offense of the 20th century.
By Steve from OH
November 25, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this
DOB, that’s a good point about the ability to call out media members on their votes more easily these days. I think he should be unanimous…I mean, what justification could a voter have for keeping him off their ballot?
By DAP
November 25, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
cubs interested in peavy? nope
looks like the potential trade market for peavy has essentialy shrunk to one.
By Braveheart
November 25, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
Oh, eff it, let’s just change the Atlanta Braves name to the
Gwinnett/Cobb Huntin’, Fishin’, Golfin’, Scripture Quotin’, High School Sweetheart Marryin’ Bobby Coxes
We’ll put Bobby Cox’s gin blossomed face on the front of the cap
By Tom
November 25, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
Ludwick and Ibanez, huh?
You are trying hard to justify either of them, but c’mon admit it…those guys aren’t the answer.
By DAP
November 25, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this
then this one, where towers says the peavy deal not getting done is keeping him from doing the other stuff he wants to do
towers is and idiot. this deal could have been done weeks ago. why would he complain about it not getting done when its his fault?
By brent a.
November 25, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this
Speaking of the large numbers of fans that tuned into the 1991 World Series.
Did anyone happen to read Tom Verducci’s “Letter to Bud Selig” in SI, right after the World Series.
He was listing the typical gripes about the WS (late, starts, crappy dome stadium, rain delays, etc.), and noted how much lower the ratings were for the 2008 WS, vs. the 1991 World Series, which also (according to Verducci), featured two “low profile” teams.
I’ll be fair, I’ve never cared for Verducci, so I look for things to pick at in his articles.
But is the guy really so oblivious so as not to realize how popular the Atlanta Braves are and were?
I don’t think anyone here needs a “Braves on cable” education, so I won’t provide it; nonetheless, whether or not the 1991 Braves had players that were perceived to be high profile, I don’t see how anyone could use the low-profile argument regarding the Braves, considering the team’s large fan base international popularity.
By David O'Brien
November 25, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this
Couple of people in recent weeks have asked about Lerew. He’s pitching in Puerto Rico. Not blazing or anything, but he’s healthy and that’s what’s most important right now. Braves wanted him to get innings down there, and he is.
By DAP
November 25, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this
cherokee sez you
i think we understand each other. :-)
By David O'Brien
November 25, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this
Braveheart: I agree on the Fightin’ Irish. Since I stopped brawling in bars, I’ve found Notre Dame’s mascot damn offensive. Makes me want to punch someone whenever I see it. Oh, wait….
By Random
November 25, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this
Braveheart: “Why doesn’t Notre Dame have to change their name? Isn’t the Fightin’ Irish derogatory? Doesn’t it perpetuate the historical image of the Irish as nothing more than trashy drunken street brawlers? I don’t know one Irish lad or lass who wants that name changed.”
The Fightin’ Irish for the most part actually were Irish, and named themselves for themselves, by themselves. Do you see the difference? (Though I’ve never heard of any teams called Gaels, I imagine it’s the same situation.)
By Raddad
November 25, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this
Because it matters.
I do not disagree with you on history! The braves were the first team to have a black general manager and they have a ICON his name Hank Aaron. Let’s not forget that one the braves untouchable’s is Jason Heyward. I guess there is a old saying “what have you done for me lately” should apply hear. For some not you(because it matters) history is forgotten.Thanks for the lively discussion.
By StingerSplash
November 25, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this
Movie Critic,
I love Young Frankenstein too, but while watching it one night several years ago with folks about 10 years my junior, two really, really bright kids about a year or two out of college, they made me aware how dated it is. They didn’t get the vaudeville type humor written into it (“Werewolf?” “There wolf!”, etc).
Something like Animal House, Caddyshack, Blazing Saddles, The Producers (with Mostel and Wilder - “I’m wet! And I’m still hysterical!”) stands the test of time. Spinal Tap actually made me fall off the couch laughing so hard, but would it be relevant to today’s audience? Just something to ponder.
“Band on the Run”? Great. “Silly Love Songs?” Not. So. Much.
By StingerSplash
November 25, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
Oh for the love of Kevin Barry and Padraig Pearse, seeing that Notre Dame mascot makes me want to grab me shillelagh and round up the rest of the boys from the Sinn Fein and the IRB (not a misspelling - there are those who know what that stands for now) for a good beatdown of somebody …
Does young Mr. Hanson have his entrance theme picked out, because if he takes the mound and the PA is playing “Mmm bop” …. maybe we ought to trade him after all.
By Bubdylan
November 25, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, laughed out loud at your 3:27.
DAP, it sure looks from here like Towers is a shrinking, squirming fat-cat. I hope some club doesn’t swoop in and save his butt, burning ours (in other words, I hope Peavy doesn’t extend his list much). Do you think Towers’ actions have been goofy enough to scare teams off from dealing with him? Not wanting to get jammed in a half-winter stand-off, etc?
By Raddad
November 25, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this
Efrin,
You think so? There is not another deal out there that even comes close to the one the braves offered. So is he going to trade Peavy to another club for less? If he indeed does I would say he would be fired. He can line up a hundred teams and none of them will give him the young pitching he wants. That’s the reason he has not traded him yet. I bet the Cubs got tired of waiting as well?
By 3 dog night
November 25, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
looks like the potential trade market for peavy has essentialy shrunk to one.
And “One” is such a lonely number too.
By Bubdylan
November 25, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
“Silly Love Songs?” Not. So. Much. StingerSplash
What’s wrong with that? I’d like to know.
By StingerSplash
November 25, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
Though I’ve never heard of any teams called Gaels, I imagine it’s the same situation.)
St. Mary’s, in the West Coast Conference with Gonzaga and Santa Clara, are the Gaels.
By spotts
November 25, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this
You guys have some of the dumbest trade proposals I’ve ever seen.
By J.
November 25, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this
I had the ocasion to come through Cherokee NC and went by the High School, their mascot is the INDIANS. Interesting……
By Efrim
November 25, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this
Raddad
You think so? There is not another deal out there that even comes close to the one the braves offered. So is he going to trade Peavy to another club for less? If he indeed does I would say he would be fired. He can line up a hundred teams and none of them will give him the young pitching he wants. That’s the reason he has not traded him yet. I bet the Cubs got tired of waiting as well?
I just think Towers is waiting for free agency to get moving. What happens if the Braves are facing a scenario where Burnett, Lowe and Sabathia are off the table? Maybe even Oliver Perez? Frank Wren stated that he wanted two frontline pitchers. He could go after another pitcher through trade, so it’s all speculation on my part. I just think Towers have a little more leverage than some people think, that’s all.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 25, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
Fan-heart McFann, what’d’I miss?
I don’t know…Some people just like to pretend you cann stick any Tome, Dick, or Harry (Tyler, Brian, or Adam?) at first base.
Oh, hey, ya know I was kidding about you not being able to use “my line”. Not like I came up with it…But I know, you’re joking, too.
By Because it Matters
November 25, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
I want to believe that the story about the Cubs pulling out from pursuing Peavy was all true. With Dempster returning they don’t have the same urgency to trade for him, at least for what the Padres are asking for.But I can’t believe they wouldn’t rather have Peavy instead of Marquis or Marshall.
I would think they aren’t going to bid against themselves and want to lower the price at least.
December 1 can’t get here soon enough.The market will be better set then. At some point players are going to have to start signing and hard decision are going to be made.I wonder how long Sabathia is going to take in making his decision? It doesn’t look as if he’s anxious to go to the Yankees.
By DAP
November 25, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
raddad the cubs were never that interested and were never very serious contenders for peavy. reading mailbags on thie web sites and quotes from pinella all off season, they just kinda shrugged off the peavy subkect and moved on. to me, there was ever intrest from the cubs, just about the cubs from other people.
By phatt
November 25, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this
Here’s to hoping the Peavy deal can get done!!!! No more games, GET IT DONE!!!
Question: If Hanson is the real deal and obviously he is, why isn’t he a lock to start the year with the big club? If they aren’t willing to deal him, they need to Pitch him. His value is as high as it will EVER be, either promote him or trade him. I understand no one wants to wear him down, but there is no exact science as to how to keep pitchers healthy. I agree to limiting his innings, but let’s see what the kid can REALLY do.
By Raddad
November 25, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this
Efrim,
I can buy that. It seems that Frank Wren may have a thing or two going on. It appears to me that Kevin Towers is putting his team and himself in a very dangerous spot. He has to slash payroll and put cheap talent on the team.He cannot do either until he trades Jake Peavy. The clock is ticking.
By Bubdylan
November 25, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this
Phatt, is your logic really that all high ceilings should be in the bigs, regardless of progress?
By Thrillhouse44
November 25, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this
We’ll put Bobby Cox’s gin blossomed face on the front of the cap Braveheart
I’d definitely buy this cap and would wear it flat billed a la Joe Torre. HOWEVER, I find the name COX offensive. Maybe we could change it to Gwinnett/Cobb Huntin’, Fishin’, Golfin’, Scripture Quotin’, High School Sweetheart Marryin’ Bobby Special Places.
By Raddad
November 25, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this
DAP,
I hope you are right? I was always told were there’s smoke there’s fire. Besides sweet Lou would never tip his hand?
By 22oz
November 25, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this
The Atlanta Crackers name was so offensive that the Negro league team named itself the Atlanta Black Crackers.
By Raddad
November 25, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this
Breaking News the Braves are about to announce that they are changing there name to the Atlanta Funky Thunder Ducks. With bright yellow uniforms . HA
By Fan-coeur (Frenchy has heart)
November 25, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this
However, turn your head a bit to the left and there sits a very large unmovable Barto Colon.
LMAO
*Animal House vs. Van Wilder? Band on the Run debates? Native American Mascot Re-treads?
Kevin Towers, have you considered the full consequences of your non-actions? Pick up the phone, do the deal, for America.*
LOL
Bubdylan that was funny.
is elmer fudd demeaning to hunters? is yosemite sam offensive to cowboys? they are cartoons, man. its innocent. DAP LOL
What about all the teams named the Gaels who use leprechaun mascots as if all the Irish run around saying, boyo, quit f$cking me with me lucky charms and me pot ‘o gold? Braveheart
That was funny as hell. Nearly peed of laughter.
Never before had I laughed so hard just by reading a blog. All this logo thing and name-changing talk is interesting, nonetheless. Interesting how different people feel about it.
your and idiot DAP
hilarious!
By Efrim
November 25, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this
Raddad
Well, they have already made it public that they are going to trade Peavy. What else is there to lose? Most Padres fans are heated to begin with? They won’t be drawing 2 million next year, that is for sure. So I think Towers can risk something like this. Even after all of this, I still think the Braves will trade Escobar to San Diego. Even if the “Braves have all of the leverage”. So Towers is trying to get that extra one or two prospects. Can’t hurt at this point.
By Steve from OH
November 25, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this
Efrim, if all that stuff happens, then Towers does have leverage, but it’s a dangerous gamble to play, IMO. That’s awfully risky with the future of your franchise at stake, I think. All accounts say that Towers pretty much has to trade him, and what if the Braves sign Burnett or Lowe? Then Wren has the leverage. I personally think we’re going to end up signing Burnett, so when that happens, what’s Towers going to do? What happens if the Cubs go out and sign an outfielder or make another trade with the very little depth they have left? Is he going to take a sub-par deal from the Astros instead? I don’t think so. I would agree that right now Towers has leverage, but I wouldn’t count on that staying as the status quo.
By Wayne
November 25, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this
DAP I too find it interesting that our man Towers seems to be laying the blame on the inability to get a Peavy deal done. It is painfully obvious that nobody but the Braves have made a truly serious offer.
My two cents worth on the “Braves” conversation. Every time I see that tomahawk chop, it offends me to the 1/64th Cherokee core within me!
Can I sue Ted Turner?
(you can tell we need a trade, huh!)
By STRETCH
November 25, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this
Phatt, i agree with you dude! If Hanson is as good as they say he is, give him a shot. Sign Hampton to that 1 year deal. JJ has shown what he can do already. Sign Peavy ASAP and mesh the rest of the arms they have and start looking at a couple of bats.
Thats what they need…someone to put the stick on the ball cause the current group in the outfield will NOT get it done AGAIN next year.
By David O'brien's Blog
November 25, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this
Spiraling, Spiraling…..
By Bobby's Cox
November 25, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
WNBA teams and MLS soccer teams have the worst names by far.
Could be that they are new and their unfamiliarity has yet adapt to sports fans. But when Oklahoma City names their team Thunder, and the general consensus is that sounds WNBA-ish, that’s not a good populace opinion of the WNBA team names.
By DAP
November 25, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this
raddad I hope you are right?
me too? i think the “smoke” was mostly fans and interested parties not working for the cubs (media) talking up that peavy was willing to go to chicago? not saying they never talked but, i doubt it was serious, since they had thier sights set on resigning dempster? im ron burgendy? :-)
By Wayne
November 25, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
I can see it now:
January 31st,
San Diego trades Jake Peavy to the Houston Astros for Wandy Rodriquez, Jason Lane, and that Japanese second baseman.
Quote from Kevin Towers: “Yes, indeed, Wandy was our man right from the start!”
By Bobby's Cox
November 25, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
I wonder if the name Game Cocks is offensive to any people.
I’m not a So. Carolina fan, but I derived Bobby’s Cox from that name, and a few people here weren’t on the same wavelength as my imagination at first.
By Novice Ned
November 25, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
DOB, is Peavy’s “I’ll accept a trade to these five teams only” list set in stone? Is he now contractually bound to accept a trade to any of those five teams? I guess I thought that a “no trade” clause meant that he maintained the ability to say “no” at any point and time (in other words he holds the right to change his mind if he decides that he no longer wants to play for one of those five teams or there is a family reason why the timing of a proposed trade may be bad). Or is it more like a “limited trade clause” with the player stipulating the teams that he can be traded to? Please explain.
(Let’s say that he put down the Braves because he would like to play for Bobby Cox and then Bobby leaves and we get a Bobby Petrino-type pooh-pooh head in here. Would Peavy still be bound to accept a trade even under those conditions?)
By BB FAN
November 25, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
I am so tired of the political correct garbage. Why are people offended by a team name or mascot? It is just a sports name and sports mascot. It means nothing. I am a white american male but have never been offended by the minute men of the Patriots logo or the old Twins logo with the two cartoon twins.
Soon, the animal activists will be protesting the cartoon animal logos of the Cardinals, Orioles, Cubs, Tigers, Falcons, Bears, Blue Jays, Hawks and all other animal logos because they are all stereotypes. It’s all garbage.
If people get offended by something or don’t like something, don’t watch it, don’t support it, and ignore it. That is one of the first lessons I learned as a child.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 25, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this
Wayne Every time I see that tomahawk chop, it offends me to the 1/64th Cherokee core within me!
It offends me to the 1/32nd Indian core within me!
Somebody mentioned them being changed to the “Thunderbirds”…no, if they took on a bird name, don’t be shocked if it’s the “Atlanta Wrens”……
By David O'Brien
November 25, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this
Novice Ned, absolutely not. He’s not contractually bound to do anything except pitch for the Padres. He can say no to any team, any deal.
And, really, “pooh-pooh head”? Might need to switch that to Preadolescent Ned.
By Efrim
November 25, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH
if all that stuff happens, then Towers does have leverage, but it’s a dangerous gamble to play, IMO. That’s awfully risky with the future of your franchise at stake, I think. All accounts say that Towers pretty much has to trade him, and what if the Braves sign Burnett or Lowe? Then Wren has the leverage. I personally think we’re going to end up signing Burnett, so when that happens, what’s Towers going to do? What happens if the Cubs go out and sign an outfielder or make another trade with the very little depth they have left? Is he going to take a sub-par deal from the Astros instead? I don’t think so. I would agree that right now Towers has leverage, but I wouldn’t count on that staying as the status quo.
I think the future of the franchise is already pretty bleak. I mean, they don’t have a very good farm system. They have already let the fan base know that they are going to trade Jake Peavy. They have told Peavy this as well, so he has responded with a list of five teams, and only one of which makes sense for a trade. That team isn’t going to draw 2 million next year regardless of the Peavy return. Towers has to take the risk is hoping that something in the marketplace makes Frank Wren jump towards giving up an extra piece of two. I don’t think the Braves are trading any of their top prospects, but maybe they end up adding Jeff Locke to the proposal.
You may be right about Burnett signing with the Braves, but if I am Towers, I am going to sit back and wait to see a team spend 80 million dollars on a player like Burnett, when the last significant contract they payed a player was ten years ago(Brian Jordan 5 years and 40 million). I guess Gallaraga was signed after that, or was he? Anyway, I think that was for like 3 years and 18 million, although I could be wrong.
By DAP
November 25, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this
havent heard from DOB in a while. they must be changing the name of the baseball team to the Atlanta Funky Thunder Ducks. (good one raddad)
By Random
November 25, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this
In 2005, the American Psychological Association (APA) called for the immediate ban on Native American mascots in schools, athletic teams, and other organizations. Former APA president, Dr. Ronald F. Levant understands that to eradicate racism, it must be eliminated from schools: “The use of American Indian mascots as symbols in schools and university athletic programs is particularly troubling because schools are places of learning. These mascots are teaching stereotypical, misleading and too often, insulting images of American Indians. These negative lessons are not just affecting American Indian students; they are sending the wrong message to all students.”
A lesson well-learned and put into practice by many here today.
By Original Jon
November 25, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this
Novice Ned No, Peavy is NOT contractually bound to accept a trade. That is just a list of teams he may be acceptable to being traded to. He can say no to any of them. He doesnt have to be traded at all.
By Fan-heart
November 25, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this
However, turn your head a bit to the left and there sits a very large unmovable Barto Colon.
LMAO
*Animal House vs. Van Wilder? Band on the Run debates? Native American Mascot Re-treads?
Kevin Towers, have you considered the full consequences of your non-actions? Pick up the phone, do the deal, for America.*
LOL
Bubdylan that was funny.
is elmer fudd demeaning to hunters? is yosemite sam offensive to cowboys? they are cartoons, man. its innocent. DAP LOL
What about all the teams named the Gaels who use leprechaun mascots as if all the Irish run around saying, boyo, quit f$cking me with me lucky charms and me pot ‘o gold? Braveheart
That was funny as hell. Nearly peed of laughter.
Never before had I laughed so hard just by reading a blog. All this logo thing and name-changing talk is interesting, nonetheless. Interesting how different people feel about it.
your and idiot DAP
hilarious!
Let’s protest against Yahoo! for its’ offensive name! Lmao
By Wayne
November 25, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this
Ned Isn’t that “foo-foo head” instead of “pooh-pooh head”??
By Raddad
November 25, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this
Bobby’s Cox
You know Game Cocks sounds like a porno movie? I”m offended!!
lol
By Bluestreak
November 25, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this
Towers - look what you have driven us to - here we are talking about if the Braves, Indians, et al, should be renamed instead of talking the Peavy trade because you have made it so painful and utterly dumbfounding. How do you have a job? You have driven a once mediocre team in a dream destination (which trumps championships) to complete obliteration. The icon (Hoffman) was thown out with the trash, you can’t create a trade market for a CYA winner from 07 without messing that up and limiting yourself to pretty much one team, which you alienated because you wanted every freaking stud prospect and All Star caliber ML SS and wouldn’t take what most GMs would jump at. Thank you, sir, for ruining a great blog.
But, since you mentioned it, I like Thunderbirds (though I don’t think the names should change until the Redskins are gone and the Indians get rid of Wahoo). We could keep the Tomahawk and think of the promotions they could run…free Ford Thunderbirds to the first 10,000 to enter the gates…hehe…
By Bubdylan
November 25, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this
Novice Ned Peavy’s list was just a general guide. He can say no to any trade, even if it’s one from the list (or yes to a trade that wasn’t on the list, for that matter). He isn’t bound at all until he officially approves a specific trade. That list of teams was a very unofficial piece of business.
By David O'Brien
November 25, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this
DOB, I’m with you in that my Orange will crush Kansas tonight. Too much Flynn and Harris for the young Jayhawks to handle. Won’t be as close as the ‘03 championship, that is for sure.J.D.
Oh, yeah, you mean the title game where Kansas went 12-for-30 from the free-throw line and lost by three, 81-78?
I like bringing that game up when Memphis fans moan about giving away this year’s title game at the free-throw line….
STINGERSPLASH, I agree with all points in your 3:39 p.m. post….
By Wayne
November 25, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this
McFann How about the Atlanta “Franks”. Would that offend hot dog aficionados?
By Bubdylan
November 25, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this
Sheesh. I gotta read better. Three answers enough for you, Ned?
By Gil In Mechanicsville
November 25, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this
Yep.. The Atlanta Thunderchickens… works for me. It sings….
By Because it Matters
November 25, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this
Isn’t It wonderful to be in the majority and be able to laugh at minorities. Tell jokes. These are the same people who then turn around and say Obama means no more racism. Interesting all jokes are from a European vintage. No one bother to notice that you don’t see any black, asian, or latino people making the same type of jokes here though I bet they’re here, fans of the blog. Why is that? And haha, everyone wants to claim a fraction of Native American without embracing their history of struggle.Privilege is great isn’t it?
By Wayne
November 25, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this
Dang it, we sure need a trade. Look what the blog is turning into…..
By Steve McP
November 25, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this
OK if we are on team names that could offend, someone has to say it - what about the Beavers?
By Ebravesluvr
November 25, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this
McFann How about the Atlanta “Franks”. Would that offend hot dog aficionados?
No but it might offend Francoeur’s Franks…..
By Ebravesluvr
November 25, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this
McFann How about the Atlanta “Franks”. Would that offend hot dog aficionados?
No but it might offend Francoeur’s Franks…..
By Hiawatha Terrell Wade
November 25, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this
Hakim Warrick!
Keep an eye on Arinze Onuaku tonight. Doesn’t get as much national press as he should but man that guy is enormous.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 25, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this
Wayne Would that offend hot dog aficionados?
Haha…maybe!
Your 4:27 was funny, too!
By Bubdylan
November 25, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this
Wayne, what we need here is a false rumor every five hours until a real acquisition happens. Can you type in Spanish?
By Lew
November 25, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this
Phatt-I hear what you’re saying, but look at it like this. Hanson, were he to make the rotation out of Spring Training, would likely do so as the Number 5 starter. Due to off days early in the season, the chance of his spot in the rotation coming up more than twice in the early going (most of April) is doubtful.
If he were to start the season at Richmond, he would probably get twice the starts in April, getting him innings that wouldn’t be there with the Braves. He’d be getting his work in against live hitters (albeit AAA) and working himself into mid season form much faster . Not to mention that with the AAA Braves in Gwinnett this year, he’ll be right across town. Besides-It will be his first option year, so he can play the Major league version of see saw all year if need be.
By N8
November 25, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this
DOB
“Oh, really? Maybe you haven’t seen the live acts of David Attell, Louis C.K., Lewis Black…”
As a matter of fact, I own ALL of Lewis Black’s CD’s, 3 Dice CD’s and one David Attell CD, listened to 2 of the Black discs and the Dave Attell last night while working until 3:00 AM.
Not even CLOSE to as politically incorrect as Dice Man was.
Rude, crude, obnoxious and over the top? Absolutely.
Lewis Black rags on government and is very high strung. If your not offended by profanity, he won’t offend you.
Dice could make the crudest of all people cringe. Dude uses the work “chink” to describe Chinese people on a regular basis.
Let me know if some comedian is getting away with that today.
Now it appears as though you are arguing with me on princible. Funny, huh?
By Because I'm Morally Superior to You
November 25, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this
I hope you all feel guilty.
By TNScott
November 25, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this
I don’t know if anyone has said anything but the Cubs have stated they’re out on the Jake Peavy sweepstakes. With the Angels reportedly offering 140 mill to C. C. do the Padres go possibly to the Yanks for Hughes or do they come back to the Braves?
By Bubdylan
November 25, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this
Well, desperate times call for desperate measures.
this just in
El taco grande che guevera pinata senor Pedro Martinez cinco de mayo Atlanta Braves. El speculato 58 trillion pesos el pact.
By cabravesfan
November 25, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this
No one bother to notice that you don’t see any black, asian, or latino people making the same type of jokes here
especially since you can tell the nationality of everyone on this blog by their screen name…
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 25, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this
Towers needs to tuck his tail between his legs, come back to FW, and take the best deal that he has and will be offered!!
By Wayne
November 25, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this
Because it Matters
Ever heard of the term, get over it? At what point do people quit allowing themselves to be the victim. The power is in you. Take hold of it.
And through what magical power do you have the ability to look through the URL’s to see who is white, black yellow, etc. That is the joy of the blog, we are all colorless. No “White Wayne’s” or “Black Wayne’s” or “Cherokee Wayne’s”. Just Wayne.
I am getting tired of the term “embracing” the history or “embracing” the struggle. I am tired of people telling me I need to “celebrate” this or that. I am ready for folks to just be themselves, without having to embrace me or me to celebrate them. I went colorless many, many years ago, when I realized the racism of my parents and how ugly it was. Probably before you were born.
Too damned much policical correctness. Just get over it folks.
By Anders
November 25, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this
Efrim
You’re absolutely right on Towers still having leverage in the Peavy deal. He may only have one suitor at this point but that suitor has limited options to meet their stated needs too. Towers is apparently willing to risk that the Braves can’t fill those needs at the Peavy level through FA or a trade. I think he’s right. What I think he’s hoping for is another team that gets left out of the FA deals comes a calling for Peavy. Could be one of Peavy’s approved choices or maybe not. Towers will deal with that when the time comes. As I’ve said on here before, I’m sure Towers feels the downside risk of the Braves pulling out valued players is less than the possibility of them having to pay more than they want. Who knows? Time will tell. I still think the Braves get Peavy - just at what price?
Anyway, off to see family out in the midwest for the Thanksgiving holiday. Not sure if time will permit for me to check in on the blog. Have a good holiday all and remember to keep our soldiers who can’t be home with their families for this holiday in your thoughts on Thanksgiving day. We truly should be thankful we have brave citizens who will risk their lives to protect all we cherish here in the USA.
By Sir Blogsalot
November 25, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this
Because it Matters:
I don’t see anybody here. I see alot of print. You don’t have any idea who is what or who is saying what. I assert that your broad assumptions racist and offensive.
By Francois
November 25, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this
I am offended!
By TennesseePaul
November 25, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this
These are the same people who then turn around and say Obama means no more racism. Interesting all jokes are from a European vintage. No one bother to notice that you don’t see any black, asian, or latino people making the same type of jokes here though
So…. you can see me? Is that what you’re saying?
You’re bordering on the line of creepiness that hasn’t been broached here since that guy claimed he stalked the GM.
By Jose
November 25, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this
I am offended!
By Gerhardt
November 25, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this
I am offended!
By Ling Tai
November 25, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this
I am offended!
By Wayne
November 25, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this
TNScott I am almost to the point of not really caring what Kevin Towers does anymore. “You want to deal Peavy? Fine” “You don’t want to deal Peavy? Fine too!”
cabravesfan I can tell you must be one of those “hate mongerers!”
:-)
Don’t you just get sick of overly sensitive people sometimes?
“I accidentally ran over a puppy 32 years ago, and it haunts me today!”
By Boungchaaminang
November 25, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this
I am offended!
By Amin
November 25, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this
I am offended!
By Mark R
November 25, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this
Dave, any chance a trade with Minn could happen. They need help at ss and have some great starters…Could an escobar for liriano trade happen? Mark R
By David O'Brien
November 25, 2008 5:22 PM | Link to this
After one listen to Axl Rose’s … er, Gun n’ Roses’ dense, sprawling and more than a bit bloated Chinese Democracy, I don’t quite know what to think. I like some parts more than others, and a couple of songs are very good (though nothing comes close to the catchy, stuck-in-the-brain hits from early GnR, like a half-dozen songs off of Appetite for Destruction or a few off Use Your Illusion albums, notably “November Rain.” Nothing that easy to love and accessible on this stylistically all-over-the-place (I mean, Axl actually sounds like he’s fronting Earth, Wind & Fire on one song) and impossible to categorize album.
That said, there’s a few solid songs on it, and enough good stuff to make it worth owning, if you liked the band way back when. But it’s certainly not a four-star album (Rolling Stone gave it four stars). I’d give it a B or B-.
(On second thought, a B- or C+)
By Bobby's Cox
November 25, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this
SteveMcP
This conversation is spiraling out of control towards grade level humor.
But I’ll add, a USC vs. Oregon St. game sure would be interesting. And I’m not talking about a Pac-10 game. The Beavers vs. the Gamecocks. Maybe that would draw 500 protesters on a nationally televised telecast.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 25, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this
Wayne—
Very well said at 5:16.
By Wayne
November 25, 2008 5:27 PM | Link to this
Anders You want so dearly for Kevin Towers to have an advantage over Frank Wren. Both guys have leverage. Kevin has the pitcher Frank wants and needs, but Frank is really the only one who wants/needs him badly enough to put up with Towers BS.
The fact that FW walked away, gives him the upper hand. He might not get the pitcher he wants, but he will not be held up at gunpoint by Towers either. The rule in negotiations is: “The first one who blinks, loses.”
By Amin
November 25, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this
I remember watching Romper Room when I was a little kid. That creepy lady looked into the TV camera and saw me. I know she did because she said my name.
By Sir Blogsalot
November 25, 2008 5:29 PM | Link to this
Chinese Democracy? How offensive!
By geauxbraves2000
November 25, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this
I’m totally offended at every new mascot that has been mentioned. What I suggest is the Atlanta Whatevers.
No wait, that offends me to.
The Ink Pens? No, I like squids. Hmm, about The Pencils? No, not very green of me………
By Sir Blogsalot
November 25, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this
… or USC vs. USC.
Trojans vs. Gamecocks.
That’s be a safe game.
By Bobby's Cox
November 25, 2008 5:32 PM | Link to this
In an attempt to change the subject,
Could the braves fire Roger and hire Maddux as pitching coach if Maddux goes through with retirement?
By Wayne
November 25, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this
Leverage. It’s like when you are buying a car. The moment it becomes more than a transaction, you lose the leverage. Gotta be willing to walk away.
Long Story: (skip past if your not curious)
Years ago, I wanted a Jeep CJ7 very badly. I went in and made an offer of $275 per month for 4 years (I knew the going price and rate). They started at $399 per month. 2 hours later, I was still at $275, and they came down to $280.
My young wife, who was an observer of the negotiations, told the sales manager to please excuse us while we talked. A minute later, he burst into the room and said, “Please don’t leave folks, you got it for $275.”
Now, when we go to negotiate on a purchase, I do the talking, and 30 minutes later, she comes in and basically says, “You got 5 minutes to get this done, or we’re outta here!” Sometimes we walk, sometimes they cave. Most times they cave, or call back a day later.
Frank has walked. Kevin needs to call back.
By Bubdylan
November 25, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this
DOB, man, I was so looking forward to your dismantling of Chinese Democracy. Oh well. Stupid levity.
By N8
November 25, 2008 5:36 PM | Link to this
When it comes to teams changing names, and what not, money talks peopl.
UND’s arena that the Hockey team plays in was bought and paid mostly by funding from and old booster Ralph Engelstad.
When teams around the country were doing away with Native American nick-names for their teams, he refused to fund the stadium if they changed their name from the Fighting Sioux.
“Englestad was extremely wedded to the Fighting Sioux nickname. As teams around the country started changing offensive Native American nicknames, Engelstad threatened to withdraw his financial support for the arena unless the name stayed. To help make sure the nickname would stick, Engelstad had the school’s Sioux logo stuck in thousands of places around the plush new arena. The state’s Board of Higher Education eventually agreed to table discussion of the nickname, but at present, the school has until 2010 to convince the state’s Sioux tribes to agree to let the nickname stand, or Engelstad’s beloved teams might have to change their names.”
Funny how that seems to make a “difference” huh?
Surprised Coach hasn’t chimed in on the topic, being from Grand Forks and all.
By Bubdylan
November 25, 2008 5:37 PM | Link to this
DOB, “levity” doesn’t mean what I thought it meant.
By csg
November 25, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this
ESPN news reporting that the Cubs have walked away from the Peavy negotiations. I wonder how Towers feels now? They quote Lou as saying “starting we dont need, we are set.”
By Wayne
November 25, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this
MarkR Interesting proposal. I don’t think the Twinkies do a Liriano for Escobar deal. Just my gut. That would be a good trade for us.
Who else do they have that they might be willing to deal?
What other teams are in great need of a SS, and has something we want?
How about Lillibridge and JoJo to SF for Jonathan Sanchez?
By N8
November 25, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this
Wayne
Sounds to me, like Frank’s wife needs to be involved with the Peavy discussions. LOL!
Imagine Frank’s wife yelling at him, “ARE YOU ALMOST DONE IN THERE? DINNERS ALMOST READY!”
To which, Frank would yell back, “DAMMIT! I’m trying to make a trade for an Ace here, I’m on the Phone!”
“Uh….Kevin, I’m gonna have to call you back, dinner’s getting cold….”[click].
Before he sits down to eat, he walks by his wife, and gives her a “high five”, stating Nicely played…. I appreciate it.
By Because it Matters
November 25, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this
Ok, I’ll shut up.Didn’t mean to get caught up in this matter at all.I’m no crusader,I’m not even a Democrat. I just think we need to listen to people and if we can do some small gesture like change the name of a baseball team then do it, or at least don’t dismiss the people who raise the point without a respectful conversation. So far it’s been jokes only on a blog full of very reasonable people in my opinion. Just wanted it on the record that at least one person here didn’t think the concerns of minorities were laughing stock. And these reason I know who saying what is because it’s rarely a minority who calls such concerns “overly sensitive” or “fringe”. It’s almost always those who have had their way over and through minorities who complain the loudest when those minorities try and tell them that something may not be a laughing matter.You have to have a mindset that makes you think you are better in the first place to not take people seriously. Again, that is a privilege of only afforded to only one group of Americans. Ghandi was right when he said,” First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you, then you win.”
By David O'Brien
November 25, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan, on second though, B- is about as good as I could give it, not B.
And let’s put it this way: it’s not one I’ll be listening to very often, I have a feeling. Like, not very often at all.
On the other hand, the Warren Zevon self-titled debut, remastered, expanded double CD, that I also bought today at Best Buy, will be played frequently. Out-freakin-standing. The extra stuff on the second disc is as good or better than the original. Seriously.
I didn’t realize until I’d already gotten home that REM’s expanded version of Murmur came out today. If anybody’s heard it, let us know what the extra stuff sounds like, and what the remaster does, if anything.
By Wayne
November 25, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this
Like I said, we need some trade rumors…
By cabravesfan
November 25, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this
Wayne
Is it “hate mongering” if you hate everyone? :)
By Ebravesluvr
November 25, 2008 5:54 PM | Link to this
Seriously, am I the only one that DOESN’T have a problem with Roger McDowell as our pitching coach???
I mean, I know it’s the “cool thing to do” to blame everything on the coaches and manager (and believe me, I have my share of Bobby Cox grievances) but I don’t see where Roger McDowell is the problem here. Anyone comparing Roger to Leo need only to look at what each had to work with during their reign…..’nuff said.
By Fan-coeur (Frenchy has heart)
November 25, 2008 5:56 PM | Link to this
I think we already have the Thrashers, why on earth would we want the Thunderbirds?
Oh no, let’s call them the Thundercats!! with the thundercat logo and all!!
Yep.. The Atlanta Thunderchickens… works for me. It sings…
that is funny!
By Ebravesluvr
November 25, 2008 5:57 PM | Link to this
DOB New to this blog (well POSTING anyway, I’ve always read it) and I’m just wondering…do you BUY the CD before actually previewing it??? And then you just keep the CD’s even if you’re not all the interested in it afterward??? Just wondering.
By Bubdylan
November 25, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this
DOB, I saw the Zevon advertised in Paste just today, and wanted it. Thanks for the confirmation. Added to family Christmas list.
By brian
November 25, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this
DOB. There is a show at the 40 Watt in Athens tonight that is a celebration of the re-issue of Murmur. All the bands are covering songs off of Murmur. Information below.
Perfect Circle: Athens Bands Play R.E.M.’s Murmur A Benefit for Community Connection of Northeast Georgia & Family Connection/Communities in Schools with Don Chambers + GOAT Liz Durrett Iron Hero Nate Nelson Heavy Feather Packway Handle Band Spring Tigers Tuesday November 25 | 8:00 PM Doors | $10 Advance
By Fan-coeur (Frenchy has heart)
November 25, 2008 6:02 PM | Link to this
Yep.. The Atlanta Thunderchickens… works for me. It sings…
Ha ha that is funny!
Dang it, we sure need a trade! Look at what this blog is turning into!
Right on!
McFann why don’t hockey fans complain about the Thrashers? That’s a horrible name! Why not call them the Thundercats, like the animated series!! with the logo and all!! think about it: THUN-DER-CAAAAATS!!!
lol!
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 25, 2008 6:02 PM | Link to this
Neight “Uh….Kevin, I’m gonna have to call you back, dinner’s getting cold….”[click].
LOL! Reminds me of a scene from an old Dick Van D. episode—when Alan Brady wants Rob to drive up to Connecticut with a rewrite to a play:
Rob (on the phone with Alan. He says to his wife, Laura, who’s in the kitchen): “It’s Alan. He wants me to drive up to Connecticut.”
Laura: “Ah, Rob…I’m making you a sandwich!”
Rob to Alan: “I don’t know, Alan…my wife’s makin’ a sandwich…”
I know, I’m a creep. Hey, it’s funnier if you see it…
By Mark R
November 25, 2008 6:03 PM | Link to this
WAYNE: the other teams I can think of have been discussed in here….I thought there was some friction between Liriano and management this year?? The other starters are good but not great enough to give up escobar (Baker,Slowey, Blackburn). I was only thinking since they have so many good young ones they may be willing to trade Liriano to fill a need.
By Salty Dawg
November 25, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this
ESPN news reporting that the Cubs have walked away from the Peavy negotiations. I wonder how Towers feels now? They quote Lou as saying “starting we dont need, we are set.”
That story is on mlb.com too, so we have concurrence between at least two reliable sources. Maybe we can actually believe this story.
DOB What with the Padres suddenly seeming like the last guy standing when the music stops, do you think that bodes favorably for the Braves should they decide to circle back around to Peavy? Both sides have been wearing pretty good poker faces in recent weeks, but Towers himself has said that the Cubs were the most likely destination for Peavy (though possibly only to push Wren into making further concessions). Now that the Cubbies claim to be disinterested, Towers either needs the Braves or needs to find a new dance partner. I imagine Towers is in the same position as Wren, oddly enough. He doesn’t know what other pieces he needs to shop for until he knows for sure what he will get in return for Jake. Any chance that Towers will just take his ball and go home, i.e. decide to keep Peavy for the time being?
By Jeff R
November 25, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this
Better, let’s just do away with any team name… Leave the front of the jerseys blank. Take the “A” off the caps. You never know: someone from Nashville or Birmingham might be offended by a reference to - dare I say it - Atlanta.
What a crock. If it were up to me, I’d put the Indian back on the Braves sleeves.
By Fan-coeur (Frenchy has heart)
November 25, 2008 6:09 PM | Link to this
What about all the teams named the Gaels who use leprechaun mascots as if all the Irish run around saying, boyo, quit f$cking me with me lucky charms and me pot ‘o gold? Braveheart
still LMAO
By Salty Dawg
November 25, 2008 6:14 PM | Link to this
I mean, I know it’s the “cool thing to do” to blame everything on the coaches and manager (and believe me, I have my share of Bobby Cox grievances) but I don’t see where Roger McDowell is the problem here. Anyone comparing Roger to Leo need only to look at what each had to work with during their reign…..’nuff said.
I think it is a natural reaction to eventually start looking at the coach/manager. It’s easy to dismiss one or two players having an off season, but when you have several and over a prolonged period you have to look for the common denominator. Not saying that McDowell is the issue any more than Pendelton is responsible for crappy hitting. But it is a natural reaction to eventually blame the coach. Actually, in Pendelton’s case I kind of agree because the only hitters NOT having a tough time the last couple of years are 1)Chipper, who has been around enough and is such a student of hitting that he doesn’t need the coaching, and 2)McCann, who goes to his dad or Chipper for hitting instruction. McDowell on the other hand has had to deal with a rash of injuries and pitchers who arguably weren’t completely mlb ready. I could be wrong, but I don’t thing the pitching coach is responsible for conditioning. If he is, then maybe there is something to it. I do recall reading something a while back about McDowell’s pitchers not working as hard in spring training as they did at “Camp Leo”. Again, maybe there is something to it.
By Fan-coeur (Frenchy has heart)
November 25, 2008 6:14 PM | Link to this
LMAO at ‘gamecocks’
LMAO at ‘Bobby’s Cox’ being named after the ‘gamecocks’
LMAO
DAP is a 100% Native American? Shocker!
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 25, 2008 6:17 PM | Link to this
Fan-heart—
Thundercats? Eh…don’t know that series.
I’m a bird person myself. Love Brown Thrashers…but Wrens are my favorite.
(Yes, Bird…Cockatiels, too!)
By Bubdylan
November 25, 2008 6:18 PM | Link to this
Man, if I had to choose between seeing the word “goo” and the word “offensive” in the next post I look at… I’d have to go with the g-bomb.
When is the last time any of you saw this sentence in a conversation like this: “Oh… now that you put it that way, I see it very clearly.”
By Salty Dawg