AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2008 > November > 20 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USBraves still shopping for a Big Dog
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
The leaves are off the big ol’ oak tree I’m looking at in my front yard. Thanksgiving is just a week away. And the Braves haven’t filled any of their three stated top-priority needs — power-hitting outfielder and two additional, proven starting pitchers (not Smoltz, Glavine, Hampton or Tommy Hanson, though one or more of those fellas is likely to be on the 2009 pitching staff at some point, and it really wouldn’t shock me if that last one, young Hanson, is on it from opening day).
The denizens of the Braves/Man in Black blog, and plenty of other, less-fortunate Braves fans, are understandably growing impatient. But while some of you are already turning attention to comparatively little dogs — can I interest you in a Randy Wolf, an Oliver Perez, or a rejuvenated Mike Hampton (no, really….) — the Braves are still aiming for a Big Dog.
Jake Peavy fits that description. So does A.J. Burnett. Maybe Andy Pettitte (hey, he’s 36, but has 14 or more wins and more than 200 innings in each of the past four seasons, and in seven of the past nine).
And certainly, a very Big Dog is Roy Halladay, who it’s rumored might possibly be available for trade, though I find that a bit hard to wrap my brain around and accept as a strong possibility.
Still, veteran scribe Dan Graziano of the Newark Star-Ledger has heard the Blue Jays might explore the market for 2003 Cy Young Award winner. If so, you can be assured the Braves would be in the line of teams interested in Halladay, who has two years and $30 mill left on his contract.
The epitome of a “horse” pitcher, Halladay won 20 games this season and has churned out 52 wins and 691-1/3 innings over the past three seasons while finishing in the top five in AL Cy Young Award voting each year. No one has been as effective and durable as him these past three years. Repeat, no one.
Again, I have doubts about whether the Blue Jays would really trade their 31-year-old ace, but if they do you can bet the asking price in a trade would be comparable to what the Padres want for Peavy, if not greater.
Which brings us back to Peavy….
I don’t care what’s been said, what water has flowed under, through and around the bridge that was Braves-Padres negotiations, I still believe this deal is going to get done. As ham-fisted as this thing has been handled from San Diego’s end, the fact remains, they almost have to trade the 2007 Cy Young Award winner now, given the state of their payroll-purging franchise and GM Kevin Towers’ statement two weeks ago about how the train had left the station, in regards to the possibility of the Padres keeping Peavy, etc.
The Braves need him. The Padres need to trade him. The Braves have offered the best package for Peavy including a very good young, affordable player in shortstop Yunel Escobar, who could turn out to be a star and will almost certainly be no less than a solid major leaguer for many years to come. They would also likely give up center-field prospect Gorkys Hernandez, who is at least two years away but who has legitimate big-time potential, according to every scout I’ve talked to and opposing managers in the low-level minors.
The Cubs have Ryan Dempster now, and thus less need to meet Towers’ asking price for Peavy.
If the Braves pull it off, they’ll do so without parting with top-rated pitching prospect Tommy Hanson (one more time, folks: Hanson isn’t getting traded) and apparently without parting with center-field prospect Jordan Schafer, who might not have quite as high a “ceiling” as Hernandez, but who could be ready to take over in center on opening day and also has star potential, in the eyes of Braves officials and a few scouts I talked to last fall when he was tearing up the Arizona Fall League (months before his reputation was tarnished a bit by the 50-game suspension for alleged use of human growth hormone).
Schafer struggled initially in his return from the suspension, but played very well in the last couple of months of the season at Double-A Mississippi, reestablishing his status within the organization and his spot on the organizational ladder. He also helped himself by agreeing to play winter ball in Mexico, hardly a glamorous assignment (Josh Anderson declined to play winter ball; I don’t know if that will do anything to his candidacy or not, but also keep in mind that Schafer last spring impressed Bobby Cox and Braves teammates with his play and his attitude during spring training, when Cox said he’d be comfortable with the kid in center field if something happened to Mark Kotsay).
Schafer hit .276 with one homer and nine steals in 27 games with Navojoa — “He was playing well,” GM Frank Wren told me — before injuring a middle-finger tendon last week and returning home to be checked out. There was no break, but he’s done with winter ball — going to rest for three weeks, then rehab for a few weeks. Should be fine for spring training, Wren said.
Trading Escobar would open a big hole, no doubt, and the Braves aren’t inclined to turn his job over to anyone in the organization. They like Omar Infante in a utility role, Martin Prado’s weakest defensive position is shortstop, and Brent Lillibridge simply hasn’t shown he can hit major league pitching well enough to turn a starting job to him.
But it’s easier for team with a budget to replace a shortstop in this market than it is to acquire a free-agent pitching ace, and Escobar is one of the few young, affordable and extremely attractive players the Braves have who they’re willing to entertain offers for to get that ace pitcher or a slugging OF (Brian McCann, Jair Jurrjens, Hanson, OF prospect Jason Heyward _ those are guys teams would love to get, but they aren’t going anywhere).
There are plenty of potential shortstop replacements, though all have a flaw or two and a few would be very pricey, including former Brave Rafael Furcal, who would cost at least $10 mill per season in a multi-year deal, and perhaps closer to the three-year, $39 mill deal he just played out. Other free agents include aging-but-still-intriguing former Brave Edgar Renteria (great in the clubhouse, played very well for Braves in 2007, and not well at all for Detroit in 2008), Orlando Cabrera and Cesar Izturis, and trade possibilities including Julio Lugo (plenty of warts), Jack Wilson (a wart or two), Maicer Izturis and J.J. Hardy.
Whether the Braves trade Escobar for Peavy or not, their willingness to include him in the deal tells me the Braves would probably trade him in another big deal if this protracted Peavy negotation finally is irretrievably broken (ouch, I just had a personal divorce flashback typing that sentence.)
But this thing is not broken, or at least I don’t think it is. Wren told me he hasn’t spoken with Towers since the Braves announced Friday they were pulling out of their active pursuit of Peavy and turning attention toward other potential trades and free-agent negotiations.
Still, I don’t think it’s over. Not by a long shot.
And the fact that we’ve gone more than an entire day without hearing anything out of San Diego regarding Peavy, that only raises my antennae a bit and makes me wonder if something _ oh, OK, I’ll stop talking about it. But I’m just saying, when you least expect it ….
Wren on talks: After Ryan Dempster re-upped with the Cubs and the Yankees were said to be preparing a five-year, $80 mill offer for Burnett, I asked Wren on Tuesday night if the Braves were any closer to getting a pitcher or outfielder.
“We’re continuing to explore every opportunity,” he said. “We made some calls today, talked to some agents, also talked to some clubs about possibilities. We have a lot of conversations going on. I can’t say at this point how hopeful we are with any of them.”
Was he at all alarmed by the seemingly thin-and-getting-thinner availability of top-of-rotation starting pitchers?
“Not at this point,” he said. “There’s still guys out there that we like. I don’t see, in talking to representatives [agents], that anything is going to happen real quickly.”
As for the possibility of re-signing lefty Mike Hampton, Wren said, “We’ve had some discussions with him, some talks about an offer. Real good dialogue…. I don’t expect anything to happen [with Hampton and another team] before we at least have a chance to talk to him. We’ve had a number of conversations.”
And on re-signing Smoltz and/or Glavine, both attempting surgery comebacks, Wren said, “There’s no timetable. Just continuing to watch their rehab. A lot of it will depend on the progression and when they get to point of where you have a more educated idea” of whether they will be able and ready to pitch.
Wren said he talked to Smoltz recently “for quite a while. He’s happy with his progress.”
(I asked Wren again late this morning, as I wrote this blog, if any of those situations had changed, if any deal seemed imminent, if he’d had contact with Towers, etc, since we talked Tuesday night, and he said nothing had changed.)
Chipper’s contract: Veteran Chipper Jones isn’t signed beyond the 2009 season, and told me in October he expected to get together with his agent and Wren about a possible extension at some point in the offseason.
When I asked Frank about that this week, he said, “Our focus right now is trying to get our club put back together. If there’s anything we need to do with guys under contract, we’ll look at that once we have everything else in play.”
By the way, the Braves have six arbitration-eligible players: Omar Infante, Casey Kotchman, Jeff Francoeur, Kelly Johnson, Mike Gonzalez and Matt Diaz. The tender date is Dec. 12, and the Braves don’t appear to have any cases for non-tender consideration, like, say, Marcus Giles a few years ago.
Outfield targets: The Braves, of course, aren’t saying who they’re targeting in the power-hitting outfield market, but we do know their talks with the Cardinals about 37-homer man Ryan Ludwick aren’t dead.
Another one that we mentioned late in the 2008 season, Seattle free agent Raul Ibanez, has also drawn interest from the Braves. He’s 36, but has hit at least .280 with a .345 OBP for the past eight seasons and totaled at least 20 homers and 100 RBI for each of the past three seasons.
Great clubhouse guy, good character, fits the Braves’ mold in that regard, and wouldn’t command a long-term deal. He only made $5.5 mill last season and hit .293 with 43 doubles, 23 homers, 110 RBI and a .358 OBP, the fifth consecutive season with a plus-.350 OBP and seventh in a row with more than 30 doubles.
He’s solid, folks, and the Braves are one in a field of suitors that could include the Phillies, Mets, Cubs, Cardinals and Rangers, among others.
Diversions: First, The Sopranos and The Wire were put to rest at HBO, and now The Shield is coming to an end at FX. What promises to be a deliciously, impossibly tense 90-minute series finale next next. I don’t want it to end, man. It’s too good. What must we do to get a Vic Mackey spinoff? (Or do you folks believe that’s going to be impossible, that our very bad man is going to meet his maker in the finale? Oh, the drama.) And we’re also drawing to a season’s end with the excellent Sons of Anarchy, which better be brought back for a second season or else I’ll march on FX headquarters with a blow torch like the one they used to burn off the SOA tattoo from a banished member’s back earlier this season. All I can say is, 24 had better bring something fresh and real to the table after its ridiculously long sabbatical, or it’s going to pale next to what we’ve had on FX.
A tune: Listening to the Cash/Dylan bootleg that one of our denizens was kind enough to burn for me a while back. Never tire of this thing, and can’t believe they never released this as a proper album. It’s incredible.
Anyway, I’m on another Cash jag lately. Here’s another that J.R. wrote himself, which contains one of my favorite lines ever (“I met here accidentally in St. Paul, Minnesota”).
”BIG RIVER” by Johnny Cash
Now I taught the weeping willow how to cry,
And I showed the clouds how to cover up a clear blue sky.
And the tears that I cried for that woman are gonna flood you Big River.
Then I’m gonna sit right here until I die.
I met her accidentally in St. Paul, Minnesota.
And it tore me up every time I heard her drawl, Southern drawl.
Then I heard my dream was back Downstream cavortin’ in Davenport,
And I followed you, Big River, when you called.
Then you took me to St. Louis later on, down the river.
A freighter said she’s been here but she’s gone, boy, she’s gone.
I found her trail in Memphis, but she just walked up the block.
She raised a few eyebrows and then she went on down alone.
Now, won’t you batter down by Baton Rouge, River Queen, roll it on.
Take that woman on down to New Orleans, New Orleans.
Go on, I’ve had enough; dump my blues down in the gulf.
She loves you, Big River, more than me.
Now I taught the weeping willow how to cry, cry, cry
And I showed the clouds how to cover up a clear blue sky.
And the tears that I cried for that woman are gonna flood you Big River.
Then I’m gonna sit right here until I die.
Comments
By Steve
November 20, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB,
Great post!…This is/could be one of the most intersting ofseasons for the Braves in quite some time…I’d love to see Furcal or Renteria back in a Braves uniform if a deal for Escobar goes through for some pitching…which I think it will as well…Jesse the halliday situation is interesting…I think at this point in his career he wants to win and I don’t think that’s available for him in a Blue Jay uniform…but I would still like to see the Peavy deal happen! Fingers crossed
By Rev Buddy Greene
November 20, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this
as good as Peavy is Halladay would be better he is a horse in the old school fashion. He completes what he starts so when he pitches its like an offday for the bullpen. I doubt Toronto would really trade him but if they did he would be EXPENSIVE.
By helopilot
November 20, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the update Dave!
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this
Yeah�I was at games Two and Five of the Division series in �03, I think it was. I saw so many damn �Got Wood� signs I wanted to vomit all over myself.Don’t Trade Francoeur, Sheesh
Saw this post from other blog. True story: I bought one of those “We Got Wood” T-shirts from a vendor outside Wrigley the year that Wood was the toast of baseball, and I wore it into a Home Depot (I swear, not making this up). And I’m walking down an aisle and an old man came up to me and asked me for help finding 2 X 6 boards.
Kid you not.
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 20, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this
Peterbilt
Peterbilt
Peavy/Sheets/JJ/Campy/Hanson
Furcal/Prado/Jones/Ludwick/McCann/Frenchy/Kotchman/Schafer
By Nocturnal Owl
November 20, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this
Extend Chipper!!Thaanks for new blog!
By Efrim
November 20, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this
Ibanez is a solid player. But, he is a career 268/322/411 against left handed pitching. Of course, he hit 305/368/497 in 220 plate appearences against them last season, so if the Braves think he can keep it up, go for it.
As far as the Peavy saga goes, keep Rohrbough and Locke out of it. No need to include them in my mind. Wren needs to stand firm with the Escobar, Hernandez, Morton, Boyer offer. Towers isn’t getting anything better than that.
By ric flair
November 20, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this
DOB any chance the Braves take a look at Ben Sheets?
By Bubdylan
November 20, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this
DOB, we need a new blog.
By Dan
November 20, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this
With all this money to spend, if they are not willing to compete with the Yankees and other high spenders for AJ, where will the money go?
You are right, there are not that many legit front end of rotation guys. Peavy is one, Burnett is another (if healthy). Lowe…..not so much.
It is imperative to complete this trade, or sign AJ Burnett. Not signing AJ will make the Braves desperate, and might allow the Padres to get more than we want to give up.
By ppaddy123
November 20, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
So……..Adam Dunn isn’t a consideration?
By Dan
November 20, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
I would rather see the Braves sign Adam Dunn, rather than trade for Ludwick. Dunn is durable. Plus, you get to keep KJ.
By chris
November 20, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this
Ibanez is a left handed hitter. do you think the braves will go after him in which that will create a middle of the lineup that consists of mcCann, Ibanez, kotchman_ (all three left handed hitters in the heart of the lineup)i dont know that would happen, and that bowman did mention that though braves officials like ibanez, they downside is that he is a left handed hitter and it almost seems like they cannot acquire a left handed hitter in the middle of the lineup with what their lineup looks like as of now
By Efrim
November 20, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this
And I wouldn’t offer anything more than 2 years and 16 million for Ibanez……although I have a feeling he’ll; get more than that.
By Train Wreck Bystander
November 20, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this
Since baseball news is slow…
DOB, you sure like the Fox shows; at least you mention them a lot. But I don’t remember you ever saying anything about Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles.
Since you brought TV into the blog today, I’ll ask: Ever seen it? Never seen it? Seen it, laughed at the knife-smuggling terminator in the pilot? Seen it, laughed and came back each week for Summer Glau anyways?
Adding Shirley Manson to the cast was a great move this year. She’s creepy in her role.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 20, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this
DOB,
One of the Man in Black’s best songs, no question. It’s also been covered well by a bunch of people. Hard to mess up material that good.
Utley’s hip surgery is a shocker, but it may explain his late-season drop. Wonder if they’ll up their offer to Burrell?
By BravesFanInRockies
November 20, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan (2:29
By Hud20
November 20, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this
So, if we trade for Peavy and sign Furcal, would we not be spending the same as keeping Escobar and going after CC? I definitely prefer Escobar over the next 5 years to Furcal and I love Peavy, but CC is an absolute innings eater and was dominant down the stretch.
By ncscoots
November 20, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
Sons of Anarchy, which better be brought back for a season season or I’ll march on FX headquarters with a torch
Exactly my feeling when David Milch killed Deadwood so he could bring us the joy of John From Cincinnati, or whatever the hell it was.
I couldn’t get the torch lit then, but Milch is dead to me now. Dead.
I’d say the guys at FX aren’t quite as stupid, so SOA should be safe. It’s a righteous show, no doubt.
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
ppaddy, who said that? I didn’t mention every possibility, simply because the Braves don’t provide me with a convenient list.
If a bunch of other options didn’t work out, I’m sure they’d consider him. But he’s expensive, strikes out a ton and is not a good defensive player. Of course, he also hits bombs. Lots of them. Gets on base a lot and hits bombs. Those are the two things he does, and does well. But those are the only two things.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the new Blog, DOB! Great story about the “Got Wood?” T-Shirt! Too funny…
Bubdylan @ 2:29—
Haha! Good stuff.
By Nate
November 20, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
Ibanez is a horrible fielder, and while hit bat is steady, he’s hardly the fear inducing cleanup hitter one would prefer to have batting cleanup.
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
Train Wreck: Those are FX shows, not Fox. Big difference. They cuss and all that on FX shows. Much grittier fare. (By the way, yet another FX show, It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia, is another of my favorites.)
I’ve never seen The Sarah Conner Chronicles, so can’t comment on it.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this
Whoops…I mean “We Got Wood”…not “Got Wood?”.
Sorry.
By Bobby's Cox
November 20, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this
Nelson Cruz.
By Lee in S GA
November 20, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this
You figure a decent spring showing by Schafer and he is starting in CF on opening day. Anderson has to be in the dog house by not playing winter ball. If this is the case what about Diaz, Blanco and Anderson? I had rather see Diaz at the plate but I had rather see one of the other 2 defensively as the 4th outfielder.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 20, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan,
Meant to use a smiley emoticon type thing in my earlier post and it didn’t work.
Anywho — nicely done. McFann beat me to it.
By TennesseePaul
November 20, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
All this talk about McCann’s off season conditioning program… is he still doing Yoga? Perhaps he should try thi chi. It’d come in handy for the flexability, strength and in the event any bench clearing brawls break out.
By TennesseePaul
November 20, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this
tai chi, I mean.
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 20, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
Haha, DOB, that’s pretty funny…
…but also not funny! I hope you don’t still wear that shirt (or just leave out he “r”)! If you were a Cubs fan-and if you are, just don’t tell me for posterity-it would turn my world upside down.
If “The Atlanta Braves” was a book, you’d be the author. I can’t take another Braves voice with a Chicago slant (e.g. Chip)!
By Bob
November 20, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
Vigilantes of Love playing at the 40 Watt tonight for first time in 6 years!! OK got that out of the way…
Braves need Peavy. That’s all there is to it. None of the other pitchers available are even close to him.
My only concern about Peavy though is what about that road ERA. From what I remember reading it’s like a full run higher than the home ERA. Which makes you wonder if he’s only a top-tier pitcher in San Diego.
By AZBravoFan
November 20, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
I think Dunn would be just as frustrating as watching Andruw. Minus the amazing defensive plays. And if they were lucky enough to get to the post-season I gotta believe those bombs would dry up in a hurry with the high level of pitching. And even if he were to get walked, who’s gonna drive him in? Frenchy?
By DAP
November 20, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this
bubdylan your 2:29—-good one!
chris dont assume that if we get a left handed hitter for left field we’d have to have LF, mccann, kotchman back to back. we will have to see how the rest of the lineup shapes up, for example, if we dont trade escobar, what keeping him from hitting 6th? if frenchy comes back around, what keeps him from hitting 6th?
By Roman Gal
November 20, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this
Lew, I wish it would just go ahead and get cold here. I think it’s close to 70 here today. But on Tuesday it was in the 20’s. The uncertainty is…well, annoying.
McFann, thanks pal.
By Bobby's Cox
November 20, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this
i still can figure out why the braves would open up a big hole in the middle of the infield in the Peavy trade, especially with so many promising young pitchers waiting in the wings.
With that said, I like that Wren is laying low. That package for Peavy was well more than enough for San Diego. Let that sink into the mind of Towers, and as time passes, maybe Wren can pull the trade with the same package or lesser. I can’t see Wren giving SD more than that last offer.
It will be the Padres that will be forced to bend as time goes by.
By PreacherJ
November 20, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this
Just FYI FWren is starting a chat on braves.com for you multitaskers multibloggers out there…
DOB, from a first time poster… I’m with you on the Halladay news… just doesn’t seem likely… but since we are all speculating, any ideas what their needs would be or what areas they would be looking for? Just curious
By world-B
November 20, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this
SOA, I’m pretty sure, has been picked up for next season. It is great. The Shield, over the last two seasons, has been the best thing on TV in quite some time. Dialogue, direction, writing, acting, all first-class. I’ll join in your mourning come next Tuesday around 11 p.m. Characters will die, for sure. Dutch could be one of them
By Eware
November 20, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this
I would support an Adam Dunn signing. I know he strikesout a ridiculous amount, but I think he would really protect Chipper. Pitching around Chipper to get to Dunn would be a huge mistake.
Here’s what I’m thinking: Chipper batted over .400 with Tex behind him, because he got pitches to hit. Without Tex, his batting average decreased, as did his power. I figure part of that had to do with pitchers not having to throw him strikes. It’s amazing that he was still able to hit .364 without a consistent huge threat behind him. I would consider McCann a huge threat, but he misses games as a catcher.
So, if we could get Dunn for a reasonable (yes, I know its baseball) price, I would support signing him. We need to take advantage of Chipper while we have him.
Plus, Dunn hits bombs and draws a lot of walks. Would he be any more of a liability than when we threw Norton out in left?
Great blog, DOB. Thanks for putting up with all of us.
By DannyFish
November 20, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB
Thanks for the blog!
If the Braves are able to get a deal done for Peavy finally then what are the chances that we still try to put together a package for Halliday should the opportunity arise? I know that it would cost a LOT for both of those to happen but Frank Wren has said that he’d like to add two pitchers this offseason and that would probably be the best 1-2 punch in baseball if we could pull it off.
By ppaddy123
November 20, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this
By David O’Brien November 20, 2008 2:41 PM ppaddy, who said that? I didn’t mention every possibility, simply because the Braves don’t provide me with a convenient list. If a bunch of other options didn’t work out, I’m sure they’d consider him. But he’s expensive, strikes out a ton and is not a good defensive player. Of course, he also hits bombs. Lots of them. Gets on base a lot and hits bombs. Those are the two things he does, and does well. But those are the only two things.
Good points………but let me ask you this: Is Ryan Howard a defensive liability for the Phillies? Does he strike out a ton? Now I’m not saying Dunn is the same player as Howard, but sometimes their offense will FAR surpass their defensive abilities. I just think putting that “Masher” between Chipper and McCann, with a resurgent Francoeur behind McCann would be a formidable lineup.
By Jgator
November 20, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this
The episode of SOA last night was as one of the best shows Ive seen on TV in a long time. Very well done with a huge shocker close to the end that will change the direction of the whole show. I’ll go with you DOB if the try not to bring it back!
By Hiawatha Terrell Wade
November 20, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this
Man, I know we are all getting antsy waiting for Peavy or Burnett or whoever our first domino is gonna be, but Dave, you’ve gotta be going out of your mind.
This blog has taken off to the degree where you are all of a sudden expected to produce every three days or so. Heck, the number of comments crash the site when you don’t. But with nothing going on but Hanson and Flowers…
You’ve had to dig deep into your bag of tricks this past 10 days or so. Same comments from commenters, one trade proposal bleeding into the next. Boyer, Locke, Gorkys, Schaefer, Fee, Fi, Fo, Fum.
Worst of all the long wait has your loyal denizens getting a little batty…assuming Greinke can be had for Francoeur?…Burnett is somehow safer than Peavy?…Flowers is not blocked?…Peavy for Prado?…Peavy is Teixeira?…Sign Ken Griffey?…wtf?????
Braves fans are treating this offseason like virgins. Don’t chomp at the bit. Take a deep breath, let the magic happen, then reflect. That’s the way to go.
Dave, I usually envy your job. What a great gig…you get to cover professional baseball and write for a living, which sure beats the mines. But I’ve gotta say, these past ten days or so, as Towers/Wren/Baseball Gods hold us hostage…I feel for you man.
By preacher J
November 20, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this
DOB,
First time poster on here… I’m with you on the Halladay discussion just doesn’t seem likely he would be available… but since we are speculating, in the event that he were to be available, any idea on what the Jays would be looking for in return? I’m sure it would something comparable to the Peavy deal but are there certain areas where they have needs??
By Bubdylan
November 20, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this
BravesFanInRockies I figured it out, and thanks! )
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 20, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
The man in black, Big River:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBLgtKVwptA
By Scott
November 20, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this
DannyFish…
not probably, there is no doubt that would be the best 1-2 punch in baseball, but there ain’t no way that could happen!
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
Roman Gal—
You’re welcome! Where are you going to school?
BFIR Meant to use a smiley emoticon type thing in my earlier post and it didn’t work.
I hate it when that happens.
Eware I would consider McCann a huge threat, but he misses games as a catcher.
So true. That’s why I like him better as a number five hitter.
By PreacherJ
November 20, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
oops… sorry for the double post… warned you i was new
Anyway… Wren just reaffirmed they have moved in another direction again on his chat… maybe it is just posturing and things have just not been public but it was interesting
By Seymour1948
November 20, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
DOB,
With all the discussion about potential pitching options, I haven’t heard much about Tazawa. I read that Tazawa couldn’t make any decisions until after Nov. 24, but do you know anything about where the Braves stand in relationship to other teams looking at him?
By ppaddy123
November 20, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
By AZBravoFan November 20, 2008 3:00 PM And even if he were to get walked, who’s gonna drive him in? Frenchy?
Certainly not the Francoeur of 2008. But, if you remember, it wasn’t so long ago the guy was one of the top hitters with 2 outs and runners in scoring position. Personally, I think we will all see a much different Francoeur this year. At least, I hope we do!
By DAP
November 20, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this
DOB what the heck are you gonna blog about once the peavy trade goes down?
By Efrim
November 20, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
Bobby’s Cox
i still can figure out why the braves would open up a big hole in the middle of the infield in the Peavy trade, especially with so many promising young pitchers waiting in the wings.
Thing is, while they are all promising, Tommy Hanson is the only one who will probably make an appearence in ATL during 2009. Also, from the group of Cole Rohrbough, Jeff Locke, Randall Delgado, and Julio Teheran(best arms in the system not named Hanson), there is only 28 innings pitched above Low A baseball. They are all probably 2 years away from contributing, barring a huge year from either Rohrbough or Locke - which you really can’t count on. Not to mention, they’ll probably struggle initially. So, the Braves really do need starting pitching for 2009 and beyond.
By leland
November 20, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
DOB—Johnny Cash singing “And I Still Miss Someone,” and you don’t even mention Emmylou Harris’ version? Are you crazy? Your pal, Leland
By rammerjammer
November 20, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
I was in favor of getting Peavy before I was against it.
Other than Chipper, we are a very young team. Why are we so insistent on 2009, like it’s a make-or-break year?
We have a terrific nucleus of young talent and a minor league roster that is apparently the envy of many.
Folks, we are built for long-term success…providing we don’t gut it for a longshot pennant run in 2009.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan and thanks! )
Haha! Good one!
By Robert S
November 20, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
DannyFish, the Braves can acquire Peavy or Halladay, but not both, as both would have to arrive through trades. The Braves are simply not going to strip their farm system bare for that. Think long term, my man. We need guys like Flowers, Freeman, Medlen, and Hanson down the road, and not playing for other teams.
The chances of Halladay being traded are far less than Peavy, anyway. I say if the Braves get Peavy they’ll go after a free agent pitcher like Lowe or Burnett or a lower tier guy like Wolf or Perez. But Halladay (if he’s even available), not a chance.
By ppaddy123
November 20, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this
Speaking of excellent TV shows, does anyone know if or when “Breaking Bad” will return?
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this
DOB, If Yunel is dealt away, won’t that leave a big whole at shortstop? Is there any younger options that could fit the bill here? It would be neat if San Diego would throw in Kalil Greene. That would pretty much remedy that. What’s the 411 on that?
By Steve from OH
November 20, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this
Coach, other than being fast, what possible upsides over Schafer does he have? You’re placing way, way, way too much emphasis on speed, bro.
By Josh P.
November 20, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this
hmm…I see a gem of a DOB sarcastic comment in 3…2…1…!!
By Efrim
November 20, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this
And in regards to my 3:25, Delgado and Teheran are further away than 2 years.
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this
Good points���but let me ask you this: Is Ryan Howard a defensive liability for the Phillies? Does he strike out a ton? Now I�m not saying Dunn is the same player as Howard,…ppaddy
I’m sure glad you’re not comparing Dunn to Howard, since Howard has a .279 career average and has averaged 144 RBI the past three seasons, while Dunn has a .247 career average (lower each the past three seasons) and has averaged just below 100 RBI the past three seasons.
By DannyFish
November 20, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this
Scott & Robert S
I guess I could have been a little more specific with my question. I was just wondering if it would be worth it to possibly give up some of the “untouchables” if it meant having a legit shot at getting to the WS within the next year or two. It comes down to mortgaging the future and giving it our best shot now or building within (which is the traditional Braves way to go) and planning for the long strech. I know it’s not very concievable, I guess with the lack of news I am just having a little bit of fun thinking through ANY possible scenario.
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this
Flustered: Good question.
By Bubdylan
November 20, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
McFann Thanks. Hey, your boy is lookin’ lean and mean these days.
By Kudzu Wildcat
November 20, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this
I see where the KC Royals, who finished 75-87, or three games better than the Braves, have traded two relief pitchers for a First Baseman, Lamb of Florida and a Center Fielder, Coco Crisp of Boston. They picked up two productive players to help their team, however, the Braves have done NOTHING.
Maybe the Braves have the wrong GM, as the former Asst GM of the Braves, Dayton Moore, is the one pulling the strings at KC.
I wonder if Wren can pull the trigger on a deal, or just talk about deals. Nothing equals Zero.
By eddy
November 20, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this
from the signonsandiego.com on 11/16/08 “jake Peavy was in Puerto Rico last week with Hoffman, Young and several other ballplayer friends, including the Brewers’ Ryan Braun and the Yankees’ Derek Jeter. Another friend called Peavy to ask if he had heard that Peavy soon might be dealt to the Braves.
Peavy’s response left one person present to conclude that Peavy, whose consent is needed for a trade, will not be going to Atlanta anytime soon, even if the Padres and Braves were to agree to a trade. “I think he wants to go to Chicago,” the friend said.
see were it saids even if the Padres and Braves were to agree to a trade. “I think he wants to go to Chicago,” the friend said.
well thats says it all he whats to be a cubbie if altlanta deal was so great why is he still in san diego cubs will get it done go cubbies
By Fan-heart (FANcoeur is an impostor!)
November 20, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
So much for Ryan Dempster…
Ditto for AJ Burnett…
Seriously why are we trying to sign a 35-year-old as our ‘top-notch starter’…oh so he could help the rotation…WRONG
we should be behind Peavy again. Kyle Lohse is a better option than Randy Wolf or Jon Garland. Who’s next, Frank, Jaime Moyer??? Randy Johnson?? Oh, let’s get Schilling too so we can have our problems solved. He could join Smoltz, Glavine, Lowe, and Hampton for the oldest rotation in the league 2009.
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
DOB,this might work to the Braves advantage. If Towers can’t move Peavy,he might have to concede Greene as part of the deal. He may be getting backed into a corner and will do anything to move Peavy. That way, the Braves would have a good caliber of pitcher in Peavy and Greene to boot. Wishful thinking, though.
By Joe M
November 20, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
Poor Escobar tried to bring some spunk to this lifeless team and they’re ready to throw him to the wolves. It is like Houdini hypnotized the blog in wanting Peavy. If this team has the same sort of injury luck it had last year, Peavy won’t make it out of spring training before requiring surgery.
By spotts
November 20, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this
*DOB, *Is McCann’s weight loss going to affect his power numbers at all?
By Hillbilly
November 20, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this
DOB
The ending of that episode of Sons of Anarchy lastnight made me want to go hug my wife and kids. What can you say besides, “Damn it?”
By Bayou Brave
November 20, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this
I think Wren is being smart by calling Towers’ bluff. And that’s really all I think is- a bluff. The vast majority of sports writers agree that the Braves have offered the Padres the best package of players to date. And since the Cubs re-upped Dempster, I find it hard to believe that they would sweeten their most recent offer. Some bloggers just need to chill the ** out. It’s Nov. 20th. There’s still plenty of time.
Escobar is a good young shortstop, but Peavy is a great starting pitcher in his prime. Throwing in Reyes or Morton and Hernandez is a fair trade, and Towers knows it. He’s just stalling in the hopes that Wren will get nervous that Peavy will open up his list of acceptable teams from 5 to 10 or so, and that Wren will sweeten the deal. But Peavy doesn’t HAVE to do that.
Peavy’s the one with the most power. His salary is guaranteed for the next 4 or 5 years, AND if he doesn’t want to play for a particular team no one, not even Towers, can make him accept a trade.
Wren is the one with the second most power. The Braves have more talented young (inexpensive) players to offer than any other team that Peavy will accept a trade to. Due to Peavy’s no-trade power, there are only a handful of teams that the Braves have to outbid. And most of the other 4 teams have bigger needs than a starting pitcher.
Towers has the least power. The owner needs to cut payroll this year, so Peavy must go. Peavy has dictated to the Padres that he will only play for about 5 teams. Towers can play all the games he wants, spread all the rumors he wants, and play hardball with rival GMs, but before next season he will have to accept the best offer from one of those five teams.
By Knuckle Sandwich
November 20, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this
ppaddy, so true. Breaking Bad is one of the best shows on TV. It gets over shadowed by Mad Men, unfortunately.
Flustered…Kalil Green…are you F%@#ing kidding me???
By chopper2chipper
November 20, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
Flustered,
The Braves are not high on Greene. DOB has written something to that extent in at least two blogs. There are many better options out there.
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this
Yeah, Joe M, that same thing concerns me about Peavy. It also concerns me that his heart really isn’t in it to be playing with the Braves.
By Bubdylan
November 20, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this
David, Frank Wren is sounding a lot like he’s really done with Peavy, short of saying “no way no how”, on this chat he’s got going.
I know, I know, but….
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 20, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this
Steve, you are becoming a complete egghead.
Just for reference, I’m a Whitey Herzog disciple. Twenty-six years ago, Herzog proved that it is possible to build a WS Champion baseball team around pitching, defense and speed. The 1982 Cardinals hit 67 HR’s and stole 200 bases.That team had an ERA of 3.37 and three gold gloves.
Speed kills and Herzog proved it.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan—
You’re welcome!
your boy is lookin’ lean and mean these days.
He sure is! They got a piece up on the “Official Site” now. It’s along the same lines as the one Ms. Rogers wrote last week…slightly differ’nt twist, though.
spotts Is McCann’s weight loss going to affect his power numbers at all?
Hopefully not in a bad way. But if it does, I s’pose his wife’s gonna hafta act like Aunt Bea when Barney had to be over a certain weight to pass his physical…
I’m sorry…I realize you were addressing DOB and not me.
By Shaun
November 20, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this
I’m going to say it: Howard has been the better player the past three seasons, but not much difference between Ryan Howard and Adam Dunn in 2008.
Dunn got on base more often and Dunn’s slugging wasn’t far off from Howard’s.
Here’s a huge reason why Howard drove in more runs:
Most runners on base when they came to the plate:
558 — Justin Morneau
515 — Garrett Atkins
508 — David Wright
503 — Mark Teixeira
498 — Carlos Beltran
494 — Jeff Francoeur
483 — Ryan Howard
480 — Carlos Delgado
Most Runners in Scoring Position:
268 — Justin Morneau
267 — James Loney
267 — David Wright
261 — Carlos Beltran
259 — Ryan Howard
Think about it, Dunn batted with 408 runners on base versus 483 for Howard, yet Dunn only drove in 46 fewer runs. Just plain dumb to judge a hitter only by batting average and RBI.
…that should spark some controversy.
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this
Alright, I’m obviously missing something on Greene. Someone please fill me in. I don’t blog everyday so I really don’t know.
By Billy Walsh
November 20, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this
How about Jose Guillen? He is very talented, is in the last year of his deal (so he would probably be motivated and would be on his best behavior) and I’m sure KC would love to dump his 12 million dollar salary. 20+ hr and 90+ rbi would be a nice addition. Hey DOB, is it over for Vinie Chase? Great season of entourage.
By Mitchie-san
November 20, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
Wren saying anything good?
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
Shaun—
Where’d you get the info on the RISP when certain players came up to bat?
Thanks!
…that should spark some controversy.
It sure did last off-season! What was that…January? Sheesh! The Blog was divided against itself!
; )
By spotts
November 20, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this
Haha, thanks McFann…didn’t matter who answered, I was just looking for an answer. I kept reading about him losing weight, and I’m a little scared his power will drop off. He pretty much IS our power right now…
And I wouldn’t mind seeing Dunn in Atlanta. We haven’t had a bomber since Andruw in ‘05. You have to complain about his inordinate amount of Ks, but his OBP has always been around .400, so the Ks shouldn’t matter. He’s getting on base more than a lot of people.
By PopeVanIII
November 20, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
DOB
What are the chances the Braves could put together a package for Ludwick that doesn’t include Escobar or KJ?
Would the Braves consider dealing KJ for Ludwick if they signed Furcal to replace Escobar?
Basically, what I’m asking is, is it possible for the Braves to acquire both Peavy and Ludwick this offseason?
By Bubdylan
November 20, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
Mitchie-san, I’m not seeing anything from Wren I’d call good. But… who knows how much is close to the vest. He did say the NTC was not the snag on Peavy. “We never got that far.” Also dismissed Escobar being aggressively shopped. He finally even got a little short about it: “Escobar is our SS.”
By Efrim
November 20, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this
Flustered Fan
I believe I remember reading DOB saying the Braves weren’t high on Khalil Greene. But maybe they might change their mind if it means taking on some cash so that they don’t give up too many prospects.
By Dan
November 20, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this
The Wren chat is a “crock of Sh%t”.
They are only answering questions from about 5 people. I bet they are all sitting in the same room.
By Bubdylan
November 20, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this
Flustered, as I understand it, it is the Braves who don’t want Greene.
By ccrider
November 20, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this
I know before I write this that everyone is going to think I have drunk the Kool-Aid. I think it becomes more and more logical to do the following: Match the Yankees offer to Sabathia 23.25 mil a year for 6 years(I think he might take it to stay in the NL), work out the trade for Peavy(find a compromise on the last piece). Sign Renteria at $4 and use Lillibridge as a late inning defensive replacement, Sign Jim Edmonds and Rocco Baldelli to 1 year contracts totaling no more than $10 to play left and give Schafer a break from left handed pitching in his adjustment year. They both hit well respectively against righties(Edmonds) and lefties(Baldelli), Sign Ohman, sign Hampton and Glavine(if it is determined he can still pitch), sign a BUC (H. Blanco, Toby Hall) I know all the arguments about no team ever won a World Series with 1 player earning more than 20% of the team salary, but I believe the Braves were one of the few teams to go from worst to first in the history of baseball. The reason I think this would work is because of those young prospects coming along in the next few years. Chipper will probably retire after 3 years, Hudson will move on or take a discount to stay. We can replace KJ, Franceour, Kotchman, LF, SS with players on the roster or in the farm system as they become too expensive. Prado, D. Hernandez, Travis Jones for KJ, Heyward for Franceour, Freeman or Flowers for Kotchman with the other playing leftfield and either Lillibridge or Brandon Hicks replaing Renteria. Meanwhile, Jurjjens, Hanson, Medlin and all the other really good pitching prospects will be cheap. Real expensive players mixed with real cheap players! The key is payroll balance and quality. Payroll 2009: CC $23.5, Peavy $11, Hampton $5, Jurjjens $.5, Hanson $.5, Glavine $5, Total $44. Bullpen Smoltz $5, Soriano $6, Gonzalez $3, Moylan $.5, Campillo $.5, Ohman $3.5, Acosta $.5= Total $19 Lineup: Schafer $.5, KJ $2, Chipper $11, Edmonds/Baldelli $10, McCann $3.5, Franceour $2, Kotchman $2, Renteria $4= Total $33 Bench: Infante $2, Prado $.5, BUC $1.5 Lillibridge $.5= Total $4.5 Team Payroll Including $6 for Tim Hudson = $106.5 Sign short term contracts for position players as the prospects are blended in and mature. This team would be pitching deep(Reyes, Medlin, Redmond at AAA Campillo in the pen for starters, Marek, L Valdez, Kimbrell and Medlin for the pen) and the lineup would be solid agaginst lefthanders and righthanders with a decent bench.
By Lou Vales
November 20, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this
I’ll take an Italian oath(I’m half Italian so it’s valid) I swear on the LIVES of my family—- THIS is my last post and I won’t post under other names!!! I’ve tried to bring some reason to this board and have been ridiculed. I’ve tried to make people aware that Jake Peavy is way beyond Small Potatoes in this environment. This was a HISTORIC DAY in the market for too many reasons to elaborate. I’ll just give you one. Citigroup closed below $5.00 a share. Why does that matter. If a stock falls under 5 it can no longer be held by institutions or pension funds. Do you understand that??? And NO!!!! I hold no Citi stock. Citi could touch 2.00 a share, the insurance companies are touching new lows with their viability being questioned. Now you guys continue to make fun of me for drawing a correlation between a systemic financial failure and a MLB season. Feel free, BUT when deflation finally rears its ugly head you will harkem back to the voice who tried to tell you BLANK Jake Peavy and these other clowns and JUST MAYBE take a close look at some times they will be talking about 100 years from now. And they won’t be talking about AJ, Sheets or Greinke. Good Luck!!! I’ll be here reading and drawing some well needed humor every night. Good Night Scott Boras. Wherever You Are.
By geauxbraves2000
November 20, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
You never know, with the weight McCann has lost, maybe a few more stolen bases in his future :)
I was on the McCann bandwagon when I first saw him in ATL, I could tell he was going to be a force.
Geaux Braves!!
By ncscoots
November 20, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
Speed kills and Herzog proved it.
…in a big ballpark with AstroTurf, in a season where the high for HR was under 40 and very few teams scored 750 runs.
Try that same strategy in today’s game, and it won’t be the other guy who gets killed.
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this
Well, I was just researching on Greene and his numbers weren’t too impressive this past season. But, he’s still younger than Renteria or Furcal, and you never know when he might heat back up. I guess I’m just saying the Braves shouldn’t shoot themselves in the foot by giving up a decent (though moody) shortstop.
By BB FAN
November 20, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this
Shaun,
You are again not understanding the runners on base compared to runs batted in. Howard drives in ~ 30 % of runners on, Dunn only ~ 24.5 % of runners on. You are saying “Think about it, Dunn batted with 408 runners on base versus 483 for Howard, yet Dunn only drove in 46 fewer runs.”
That means that Howard drove in 46 baserunners of the 75 more that were on base for him.
Dunn would likely only drive in 18 more runners if he had the extra 75 men on base. That is 24.5% of the 75 more men. That’s a total of 118 for Dunn compared to Howards 146 (if they both had 483 men on base).
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this
You’re welcome Spotts! Always happy to oblige. I have to admit, I’ve been a little nervous about that myself. (But I’ve found that I’m kind of worrywart. It cann be a little ridiculous at times.)
But I don’t think we cann be blamed…I mean, after what happened last year with Francoeur. Though there’s a big difference between the two; Francoeur admitted that he hardly hit at all last off-season. Kinda hard to get used to hitting with a new build if you wait till Spring Training to do it. McCann’s gonna start hitting with his Dad on Christmas (family tradition).
I think it would be cool to have a big thumper like Dunn. I’m a little leery of him for some reason, though…maybe it’s ‘cause I haven’t looked at his situational stats. But I’ve wanted one of those type home run hitters since AJ dipped off.
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this
I was just wondering, just wondering, mind you, why the Pads want take Johnson, then Prado could take over at 2nd. That would alleviate some problems. We’d get to keep Esco and still have a 2nd baseman.
By Josh P.
November 20, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this
So ends the Lou Vales era…and nothing of value was lost.
By stynes
November 20, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this
Seeing the list of most ABs with runners on or in scoring position, etc. made me think… Is there a stat that incorporates that kind of a factor? There’s gotta be - I’m just not familiar with it. What’s the story there?
I’ve seen the % of runners driven in with a man on 3rd and less that 2 outs, that kinda thing. Is there like an RBI %, though? Maybe RBIs / (ABs + runners on) or something? To weight it heavier toward more RBIs you could then multiple by RBIs or something. Just thinking aloud.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this
geauxbraves2000—
There could be more steals! He’s been running three times a week!
I was on the McCann bandwagon when I first saw him in ATL
Good for you! I’m a little embarrassed to say that…um…I wasn’t…
But in ‘05 I didn’t know a whole lot about Baseball…I was still learning!
By Efrim
November 20, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this
Flustered Fan
It’s an interesting thought. It all depends on the costs of the free agent shortstops. I can’t imagine the Braves want to give Furcal a 4 year contract. Also, I’m not too sure the Braves would be ecstatic to pay big dollars for Orlando Cabrera. But, it’s quite early though. The first domino has to fall(Peavy) before we start to feel out the other Braves moves this offseason. At least that is the way I am approaching it.
By rammerjammer
November 20, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this
You know, I’m gonna miss ol’ Lou Vales. You never knew where those rants were going. Sometimes, in the midst of the capital letters, there were pearls of wisdom.
But not usually.
By Braves Bailout
November 20, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this
Vales, Do you really promise? Just got reminded I’m down 62,000 on Citi and I even have begun to sweat a variable annuity I have with a large insurer. Please stay away. You have no idea what a strong #1 starter can contribute to peace of mind. While I understand your fraustration with our silliness. It is OUR silliness. Why don’t you apply to CNBC and do a segment related to market and impact on sports/ I bet they aren’t interested either. That’s why you have ESPN and another network that actually has an idiot like John Salley in a starring role.
By Bobby's Cox
November 20, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this
I hear you flustered fan.
They’ve said to want pitching….throw in medlin, and jojo or redmond, take out escobar, and subsitute with Johnson. That would alleviate a lot of problems.
By Mr J
November 20, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
Lou Vales,
I actually have some sympathy for your positions. They come across as over the top, but I think they are valid concerns.
But remember, when the Empire crumbles, bread and circuses (circi?) are the last things to go. I dearly love baseball, but it is definitely part of the circus.
By JimD
November 20, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
Twenty-six years ago, Herzog proved that it is possible to build a WS Champion baseball team around pitching, defense and speed. The 1982 Cardinals hit 67 HR’s and stole 200 bases.That team had an ERA of 3.37 and three gold gloves.
Speed kills and Herzog proved it. Coach
Yes, and 26 years ago, almost every team (including Herzogs teams - St Louis and KC) played in cavernous stadiums with artificial turf. This was kind of like a return to the dead ball era of the early 20th century - Shoeless Joe and company.
Now, the game is back to being played on grass in smaller parks. Don’t forget, parks with fences closer to home plate also have smaller power alleys and less room to cover in the outfield. Speed is not the premium it once was defensively. And offensively the “hitters parks” place more of a premium on hitting the extra base hit … stealing bases is less important.
Honestly, to me, the new game is a little more boring. Small ball is more fun to watch. I was a big fan of Billy Martin and Billy-Ball. But the times have changed. The game is no longer built around speed.
By TennesseePaul
November 20, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this
Howard drives in ~ 30 % of runners on, Dunn only ~ 24.5 % of runners on
This also has something to do with batting average. Not the most favorite stat by some. But it is important. Having a guy at third and drawing a walk doesn’t drive in a run. But a hit would. And the hit would also improve the on base percentage. Batting average isn’t the end all be all of baseball but it is important.
Getting a hit is a more productive means of out-avoidance than drawing a walk.
That should throw gas on the fire.
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this
They also have to have a back-up plan for a 3rd baseman. Chipper’s good and all, but, almost like clock work, he ends up on the DL. Man, I’d hate to have to be a GM right now.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 20, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this
Flustered,
The Pads want Yunel and not KJ. I think the Pads would rather try to trade Greene (who’s despite decent power production will be paid $6.5mm a year, gets on base at a terrible rate, and is a bit of a head case) and then plug Yunel in at SS, where he’ll command a much lower salary for several more years.
KJ’s salary will start escalating faster than Yunel’s, and the Pads look like they’re going to be a very low payroll team for several years.
By Rico
November 20, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this
DOB, any legs to the story about Ted Turner wanting to buy back the Bravos? How long do you anticipate that Liberty Media would otherwise want to hang onto to the club before they sell?
Your fellow stogie-smoking, James McMurtry fan in Athens.
By THE BEAR
November 20, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this
Wren made a couple of interesting statements.
In response to a question about Escobar he said, “Escobar is our Shortstop”
About KJ. “Johnson is a natural shortstop who we changed to an outfielder and then brought back at second and he is improving dramatically with his play at that position.”
Note: I am paraphrasing both but they are close to actual quotes.
By Carollina Coot
November 20, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this
Vales, I’ve actually heard you on the radio and you never talk about this stuff. Of course in the Greenville/Clemson market nobody would understand it anyway and if it doesn’t relate to Clemson football nobody cares. Do enjoy your rants on Bobby Bowden. Those are great. Did Tommy ever give you a hard time about those? Try calling Cramer maybe he will listen. Nobody here cares.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 20, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this
TennPaul,
Believe it or not, according to one report a big reason the A’s acquired Matt Holliday is because of his batting average. Beane has filled the A’s roster with lots of players who get on base a lot or hit for power, but not many who combine either with a high batting average. So it turns out that Moneyball isn’t the be-all and end-all of the A’s SOP. Fascinating.
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this
Well Bear, I pray you’re right…also Rico, I hope you are also right about Ted wanting to buy the Braves back. That would make the Braves the Braves again. My fingers and toes are crossed on both of these.
By Nate in Maine
November 20, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this
DOB I have aquestion for you. I have heard through sports radios in new england that the redsox trading for a catcher. My question is What about the Braves trading Tyler Flowers to the redsox for like Justin Masterson or Bucholz or Jon Lester?. Any three of those guys would help us out alot.
By MattyRoss
November 20, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this
DOB re: your 3:39. Laughed. Out loud. The pacing provided by me scrolling up to see what it was worked perfectly. Well played, sir.
By raindawg722
November 20, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this
I absolutely agree that it’s much more likely that a deal is getting done when teams are talking to each other in private and not through the press. That’s why I was a little shocked when Wren came out publicly and said that the Braves were turning their focus to other needs besides the Peavy trade. Wren could have just told Towers privately, “Here’s our best deal. Let us know if and when you’re interested. In the mean time, we’re moving on.” That implies that the Padres might want to hurry up if they’re serious about trading Peavy. As it was, Wren just gave Towers more ammo to go back to the press and make comments to the effect of at least we’re still talking to the Cubs. They sounded like fifth graders going back and forth. I wouldn’t be surprised if their friends were secretly listening on the other line.
By Bobby's Cox
November 20, 2008 5:22 PM | Link to this
ccrider,
did you drink cherry, or grape koolaid?
By Anders
November 20, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this
ccrider
We have John Nash working on your 4:23 post. As soon as he has it fully decoded expect a response.
By Wayne
November 20, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this
As close as they have become pitching for the Blue Jays, if we traded for Halladay, would that increase our chances to pick up Burnett??
Just wondering if we could parlay one trade into two acquisitions?
By TennesseePaul
November 20, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this
Well, if the worry is that Peavy is an “abirition of PETCO”, then it should be noted that Greene isn’t as bad as his PETCO numbers make him out to be. He’s a career .270/.318/.434 guy on the road. It’s isn’t that impressive. But it also isn’t as bad as the .225/.289/.369 guy that he is at PETCO.
Out of his 6 seasons in the majors (not all of them full season) he has had 4 good years on the road: (.290/.342/.528) and two bad ones (.229/.270/.396).
By mbatl
November 20, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this
Ted would be fun as owner - though honestly, quirky, highly-involved owners make me a little nervous - but based on what we know, I don’t see the big problem with anything Liberty has done so far.
They opened the checkbook to get Tex, and have given Wren a pretty big wad of money to spend this offseason (sounds like it could be a $105 - 110 mil payroll to me, once possible Smoltz/Glavine/Hampton deals are done, and apparently no “hard cap” on payroll as long as deals make good business sense).
And they’re leaving baseball, and baseball-business decisions, to McGuirck and Wren.
By TennesseePaul
November 20, 2008 5:35 PM | Link to this
So it turns out that Moneyball isn’t the be-all and end-all of the A’s SOP
Yeah, I think it still is. The common misunderstanding of the entire book of Moneyball was that people thought it was only about on-base percentage. The point of the topic was, as a GM you have to look for undervalued skill sets. At the time, on base percentage was that undervalued skill set. Bean still follows this philosophy. Under valued skill sets now are defense and batting average (an awkward measure of consistency). So it wouldn’t surprise me that he is acquiring guys of this ilk.
As for Holliday, I am a bit surprised he did acquire him as he will not be able to re-sign the guy. But perhaps Bean wants the draft picks when he walks or the mid-season trade ability. In the mean time he gets a good bat to put in the outfield.
By Bayou Brave
November 20, 2008 5:35 PM | Link to this
Nate in Maine You seriously think the Red Sox would trade Lester for Flowers?
By Bobby's Cox
November 20, 2008 5:37 PM | Link to this
efrim,
I understand every possible angle of the braves needs. Your response to me insinuated I didn’t.
My reasoning is this: you open up a hole a short that will possibly take years to fill, whereas holes in the rotation could be filled internally after the 2009 season. I’m not advocating taking a year off, but you can sign some pitchers or trade for lesser ones while waiting for guys to develop.
You just don’t fill a major hole while creating another major one. IMO.
By Anders
November 20, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this
Halladay from the Blue Jays? If you think the Braves will have to swallow hard for what Peavy might cost wait until you see the market for Halladay who won’t come with all the “Peavy restrictions”. Not saying the Mets would have what it takes but lots of other teams would be in play that aren’t for Peavy.
Forget Halladay - that’s a pipedream. Peavy - maybe. Just a matter of price.
By What To Hope For?
November 20, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this
All this is a moot point, though. He will be a Brave by the end of the month. I will bet Coach’s life on it
Oh man, now I am seriously conflicted.
By brent a.
November 20, 2008 5:55 PM | Link to this
As far as Ted owning the Braves, I think we saw that he was more than willing to “uninvolve” himself, beginning with making Cox GM in 198whatever.
To me, he is better than Liberty if the following 2 things happen
1) He increases payroll 1a) He operates as he did during the 1990’s 2) He gives a local face to the franchise that rejuvenates the fan base, and makes things feel more “local” and less “corporate”
By David-ATL14
November 20, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this
**DOB Great blog agree wholeheartedly with your tak on the Peavy to the braves take.
Also rest easy my friend. Sons of Anarchy has already been renewed for Season 2.
Great show!
By Wayne
November 20, 2008 6:11 PM | Link to this
Has anybody heard if the Braves are interested in retaining Jorge Julio? I suspect he will be one of the myriad of free agents who will be signed in January/February timeframe that will not be well treated, dollar wise.
Dude did have a decent showing when called up, and was OK at Richmond, but I don’t remember hearing anybody say anything about his arm strength, potential, etc.
By Brandon
November 20, 2008 6:11 PM | Link to this
A close friend of mine works for a media outlet in Toronto and he said three teams have contacted the Bluejays about Halladay….and yes the Braves were one…But unless the Braves let go of Hanson, Heyward, or Jurrjens they would’nt do a deal. The Bluejays would require two of those names before Halladay would even breathe Atlanta air.
By Doug
November 20, 2008 6:12 PM | Link to this
Nice blog! I like a year or two of Pettitte much more than 4-5 of Lowe. I still think one if not two of the big pieces will be players not mentioned in the current rumors. Lots of offseason left.
To pick on a comment from the last blog regarding the Mackey confession on The Shield: wow! One of the great scenes I have seen, big and small screen. The buildup to whether Vic would admit guilt over Terry’s shooting or claim it was accidental, transitioning to smug satisfaction as he threw all his transgressions in ICE’s face, knowing he had gotten away with it all. Erased all questions about Vic being motivated by his conscience rather than by fear of getting caught.
Interesting looking back at how the series has, to a large extent, been about the consequences of the very first episode. (And how many cop shows can survuve after making the main character a murderer out of the gate?)
They really freed Mackey when he turned in his badge—gave him a nothing to lose edge! And Claudette has really been moving into Cavanaugh territory with her blow-ups. Just a terrific show! It will be interesting to see how Ronnie reacts to Vic sacrificing him.
Can’t believe its almost over, but they are certainly going out on top of their game!
By Bobby's Cox
November 20, 2008 6:18 PM | Link to this
According to lou vales, Turner’s money would be better spent continuing to raise buffalo on midwestern ranches and improving green house emissions in doing so, than to spend money buying a baseball team.
Some things in life are more important.
I agree.
But screw it, buy em back Ted! That is the American way right?
By Wayne
November 20, 2008 6:20 PM | Link to this
Has anybody heard if the Braves are interested in retaining Jorge Julio? I suspect he will be one of the myriad of free agents who will be signed in January/February timeframe that will not be well treated, dollar wise.
Dude did have a decent showing when called up, and was OK at Richmond, but I don’t remember hearing anybody say anything about his arm strength, potential, etc.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 20, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this
Bravos make a move!!
“Braves claimed southpaw reliever Eric O’Flaherty off waivers from the Mariners today. O’Flaherty, 24 in February, was terrible in seven appearances with the Ms this year and struggled with walks and hits allowed in Triple A.
In 2007, though, he held lefties to a .183/.278/.204 line.”
From MLBTraderumors.com
By pfunkatl2
November 20, 2008 6:25 PM | Link to this
DOB…any chance of sharing that CASH/DYLAN CD with me??? pfunkatl2003@yahoo.com
By Josh P.
November 20, 2008 6:27 PM | Link to this
Well Brandon unless Halladay passes through or visits he won’t be breathing Georgia air anytime soon!
By nolie
November 20, 2008 6:29 PM | Link to this
Speaking of excellent TV shows, does anyone know if or when “Breaking Bad” will return?PPaddy
13 episodes are due in February or early March
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 6:30 PM | Link to this
I think that the Braves do need more of the “local feel” again. They’re not getting it throught Liberty. I never agreed with MLB’s approval of the sale. If they were to have local ownership again, whether Turner, or even Blank, you would see a new resurgence of interest in the Braves.
By tennessejed
November 20, 2008 6:35 PM | Link to this
Frank Wren said in his chat today that the Peavy talks are off, and that they are looking elsewhere. He thinks Paul Byrd would be a great addition. He also mentioned that Diaz is still a good hitter and has worked hard in the offseason and is in great shape. He also doesn’t feel pressured to spend the 45 million. 09 here we come!!
By Wayne
November 20, 2008 6:39 PM | Link to this
Dave (or anyone who knows)
When do the Braves have to set their roster so as not to lose guys to the Rule 5 draft?
Thanks in advance…
By ccrider
November 20, 2008 6:41 PM | Link to this
To The Fabication King AKA Anders: I wouldn’t expect a Mets fan to understand anything more complex than GO YOU F** Mets! But to simplify it for you, the economics could work with the right balance of young cheap players and expensive star players. Is that simple enough for you?
By John
November 20, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this
Wayne
The deadline was earlier today. We should find out any time now who the Braves have protected.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 6:48 PM | Link to this
Hey! We saw the Space Shuttle fly over our neighborhood around 6:15!! That was COOL!!
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 6:49 PM | Link to this
Braves sent out a release while ago announcing the moves to finalize their protected (40-man) roster while I was on the treadmill.
If you haven’t see it elsewhere: SS Diory Hernandez and RHPs Stephen Marek and Todd Redmond were added along with a lefty they claimed off waivers from Seattle, a dude with a solid name: Eric O’Flaherty. I’ll be writing good stuff about O’Flaherty regardless of how her performs, needless to say.
He’s 23 and had a 20.25 ERA in seven relief appearances with the Mariners last year. But those numbers are misleading, folks.
The Braves had already opened room on the 40-man with guys who became free agents and release of Scott Thorman, etc.
By larry
November 20, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this
What about Garett Anderson for LF, I lived in So. Ca. and follow the Angels forever and he, in my opion, has more of an upside than Raul I. of Seattle. The Angles may make an offer, but he is solid and of great character and can still hit and field. What do you think??
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 6:54 PM | Link to this
Rico, good to hear from ya. Liberty has to hang on to the team for at least a couple more years per the tax laws, etc. I’d have to go back and look at the stories after the sale, but I know it was at least a few years they had to own the team.
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 6:55 PM | Link to this
Ppaddy, agreed on Breaking Bad. Outstanding show. He (the guy who plays the chem teacher-turned-meth cook) won the Emmy, by the way, for best actor.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 20, 2008 6:56 PM | Link to this
10Paul,
Agreed, I shortchanged Moneyball in my attempt to be pithy. Busted! It is all about GMs finding and acquiring talent that’s not fully appreciated by the herd.
But do you think BA has gone from overvalued to undervalued in five short years? I’m dubious but it could be that Beane is ahead of the pack again …
By Nate in Maine
November 20, 2008 6:57 PM | Link to this
BAYOU BRAVE It was just a suggestion. I have heard that the redsox want a a catcher for the future and there isn’t a whole lot of talent out there for catchers. The redsox would trade Bucholz for Satly why not trade Bucholz for flowers. I have seen bucholz pitch and he has some good stuff.
By Steve from OH
November 20, 2008 7:02 PM | Link to this
Coach, I’ll just second what Scoots and JimD said, while adding that the NL average line in 1982 was .258/.319/.373 (St. Louis had an OPS+ of 103 that year, so they were pretty close to that), compared to this year’s average of .260/.331/.413. Herzog’s ‘82 team would have struggled in this era’s offensive climate. Period. And you’re suggesting that we try to emulate that? Why?
Look, man, I do agree with you that a championship team builds around pitching and defense (and in my younger days, I would have agreed on the speed, too. But times change. Get over it and get with the times, dude). But when you suggest that we play inferior offensive players because they’re fast and “speed never slumps,” or whatever catchphrase you want to use, it’s just silly. It makes zero sense.
A full season of Josh Anderson would be a 600-PA slump.
By Nate in Maine
November 20, 2008 7:06 PM | Link to this
Jason in FL I am in york county maine.
By Deep Throat
November 20, 2008 7:08 PM | Link to this
It’d probably be smart to trade Francoeur. People say his value is low; but at least he has a little value right now. The Braves could probably package Francoeur to some gullible team this offseason and get something useful for 2009 and maybe beyond.
But after Francoeur puts up another typical Frenchy season next year (probably around: .280/.300/.400) and gets slightly older and more expensive, his trade value will be less than none: it’s be a negative value. Not to mention Braves’ fans will have to put up with another 600+ at-bat Frenchy year. Francoeur may “bounce back” to being his usual .730 OPS self, but that sucks too coming from right field. The guy is .268/.312/.434 for his career….a career with over 2,100 career at-bats in 549 major league games. This ain’t some kid. Three fulls seasons now; two historically bad (2006, 2008) and one slightly sub-average one (2007). What’s it take?
End the insanity, minimize the losses: trade Francoeur.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 20, 2008 7:12 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH,
Second that.
Look at videos of games from that era. The strike zone was much bigger (at least the way the umps called ‘em), and so patience at the plate was not rewarded the way it is now. Slap (and especially gap) hitters fared a lot better in that environment.
And yet, Earl Weaver and his big inning offense typically won a lot more games than he lost.
By Brandon
November 20, 2008 7:23 PM | Link to this
As I understand the Bluejays would consider trading Halladay/Rios for Heyward, Jurrjens, Lillibridge, and a AA pitcher Possibly Locke.. That is what he says would make them pull the trigger. Take Rios out and the bluejays may not get Lillibridge
By Bobby's Cox
November 20, 2008 7:26 PM | Link to this
Steve,
I’m in no way taking Coach’s side:
However, I think the game is getting back to that. Players are shrinking, and the running game is becoming more affluent again. It’s a trend. Whereas the Braves shouldn’t go to Herzog’s level, they should, as you said, go with the times. I see nothing wrong with the leadoff or 8th place hitter having a 82% SB rate.
However, does nothing good if that 8 guy can’t get on base, especially if there’s potentially better options (schafer) available. There should be a balanced lineup, so I agree with you both, somewhat. The braves lineup, as it stands, is not so balanced, but it’s getting there with McCann losing weight (joke, i think).
By semiballcoach
November 20, 2008 7:31 PM | Link to this
paul byrd?? older version of campillo…please tell it ain’t so
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 7:42 PM | Link to this
Bobby’s Cox—
Hardy har. ; )
I see nothing wrong with the leadoff or 8th place hitter having a 82% SB rate.
Hey, last year our cleanup hitter had a 100% SB rate.
By Salty Dawg
November 20, 2008 7:43 PM | Link to this
DOB, glad to see you fess up to being a fan of “It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia.” I though I was the only one depraved enough to find that show funny. It is absolutely hilarious and most of the time I’m just laughing at how offensive it is. Great show. Regarding SOA, if FX cancels that show I’m calling DirectTV to come get their box. That is the ONLY show I have ever watched every episode of. Last night was the best show yet. Seems like a lot of really great shows get the axe though. Anybody ever see The Black Donnelly’s on NBC? Awesome show and got cancelled after like 5 episodes. I wish FX would pick that show up and dust it off.
By Steve from OH
November 20, 2008 7:46 PM | Link to this
Bobby’s, there’s nothing wrong with wanting a balanced lineup. I agree that the game may be trending back that way, but we’re still a long way’s off from the anemic 1982 offensive numbers. My main point is that we shouldn’t overvalue speed in lieu of subpar numbers in other, more important categories. I agree that Schafer is a better option, although he may yet be deemed unready by the FO this spring. But if he’s ready, Anderson’s speed is not enough to offset the myriad of benefits you stand to get with Schafer playing instead of Anderson. Love Anderson as a 4th OF, not as a starter. That’s all I’m saying.
Not a thing wrong with a leadoff hitter as fast or as good at stealing bases as Anderson, but I don’t think those qualities are enough to offset his low-OBP trends (and low SLG too)
By ncscoots
November 20, 2008 7:48 PM | Link to this
Steve-OH, you know the funniest thing? I’ve had that speed-as-tactics-not-strategy conversation in this forum for years, but check my screen name. What kind of offensive player do you think I might have been, back in the day? LOL, life is a strange ole thing, brah.
‘Course, I saw the light as I grew into a young man, and stuck to pitching. :-)
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 7:49 PM | Link to this
Paul Byrd? I dunno bout that one…
By Salty Dawg
November 20, 2008 7:53 PM | Link to this
I was in favor of getting Peavy before I was against it.
Other than Chipper, we are a very young team. Why are we so insistent on 2009, like it’s a make-or-break year?
We have a terrific nucleus of young talent and a minor league roster that is apparently the envy of many.
Folks, we are built for long-term success…providing we don’t gut it for a longshot pennant run in 2009. rammerjammer
The problem is that baseball, like many things, is a “what have you done for me lately” pastime. Nobody want to sit around before the season starts and say “hey, we aren’t going to play for squat this year, but wait ‘til 2011.” Fans pay the bills and fans want to see good baseball in 2009.
By Salty Dawg
November 20, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this
I was just wondering if it would be worth it to possibly give up some of the “untouchables” if it meant having a legit shot at getting to the WS within the next year or two.
Hmmm…that plot seems vaguely familiar. Now where have I heard that before. Say, does anyone know if Texiera has signed anywhere yet?
By Salty Dawg
November 20, 2008 7:58 PM | Link to this
Flustered: Good question.
Ahhh, the master shows restraint.
By Bobby's Cox
November 20, 2008 8:02 PM | Link to this
steve, completely agree
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 8:05 PM | Link to this
Salty, what are you talking about?
By Salty Dawg
November 20, 2008 8:08 PM | Link to this
Mark Texiera and Jason Varitek just made a cameo on tv at the Ga Tech game. Texiera says he just wants to get it out of the way. Well, then can your agent douchebag.
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 8:09 PM | Link to this
And Salty calls DOB sarcastic…
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 8:17 PM | Link to this
Scott Boras: the Nazi agent…
By Anti Peavy
November 20, 2008 8:20 PM | Link to this
I wish the Braves would forget about Pake Jeavy and move on….he ain’t worth all that…
By JimD
November 20, 2008 8:38 PM | Link to this
Steve and scoots,
I agree that speed is making a bit of a comeback, but it will never be what it was in the late 70’s early 80’s. Remember Herb Washington of the A’s?
Today’s smaller parks and their natural grass along with the natural evolution of the game keep speed from being as much of a weapon as it once.
But, to Coach’s credit, speed is still a valuable tool. Obviously, all things equal I would choose the more mobile player over the more cumbersome one. It’s just that speed doesn’t kill anymore, but it does irritate.
By Braveheart
November 20, 2008 8:44 PM | Link to this
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/20/sports/baseball/20pitcher.html?pagewanted=all
Japanese Are Irked by U.S. Interest in Pitcher
By ALAN SCHWARZ and BRAD LEFTON Published: November 19, 2008
As far as Junichi Tazawa is concerned, the most rebellious acts in his 22 years have been ignoring his homework and sneaking home after sunrise. But as the first high-profile Japanese baseball prospect to turn down his nation’s leagues to entertain offers from Major League Baseball teams, he has found himself straining relations between baseball entities on two continents, with accusations of talent raiding and defiance of decades-long understandings.
Tazawa’s talent snuck up on him as much as this controversy. After pitching for his high school team in the port city of Yokohama, he was not drafted by the 12 Japanese major league organizations. His only offer was to pitch for Japan Oil in the industrial league, a workers’ minor league unaffiliated with the Japanese majors. He has been there ever since.
In an interview this month in a cramped meeting room at the company dorm in Kawasaki, Tazawa said he casually watched Major League Baseball on television while growing up and admired trailblazers like the recently retired Hideo Nomo, who became a sensation pitching for the Los Angeles Dodgers in 1995. But Tazawa said he never fantasized a similar career for himself.
“I never had an interest in the game over there,” Tazawa said in Japanese. “I guess that’s mostly because I never imagined I had the talent to consider such a thing.”
Tazawa improved in the industrial leagues and, at an amateur tournament in Taiwan last November, had his fastball clocked on the scoreboard as high as 97 miles an hour. “I couldn’t believe it,” he said. “I thought the speed gun must be broken or something.”
Astonishment extended to the scouts in the stands, some of whom were from the United States. They expressed interest in Tazawa to Japan Oil’s manager, Hideaki Okubo, a 39-year-old recently retired professional who had watched many peers move midcareer to American baseball. Okubo encouraged Tazawa to consider the rare opportunity of signing directly with a Major League Baseball team, and later said in Japanese during an interview that Tazawa would be best served by “the toughness of an unfamiliar environment where his need for survival would be challenged more.”
Tazawa thrived this summer, posting a 10-1 record and a 1.02 earned run average for Japan Oil and striking out 95 batters in 88 1/3 innings.
Mets General Manager Omar Minaya said he considered Tazawa available but continued: “It’s a sensitive area. It’s fair to say that if we were to go out and get their college players, what would prevent them from coming after our college players?”
The Yankees’ Cashman was unequivocal. “I’m old school — there has been an understanding,” said Cashman, whose team has a formal cooperative relationship with the Yomiuri Giants, a team particularly upset with the Tazawa affair. “There’s been a reason that Japanese amateurs haven’t been signed in the past, so we consider him hands off.”
Tazawa would not be the first modern Japanese amateur to sign with a United States club, but the first to do so against Nippon Professional Baseball’s wishes. Other players, like the current Atlanta Braves minor leaguer Ryohei Shimabukuro, signed after dropping out of high school but were not considered a top prospect by Japanese clubs. In 2003, pitcher Kaz Tadano was shunned by Japanese teams after he appeared in a pornographic film, and he signed with the Cleveland Indians.
“There’s a fine line between falling behind the competition because you’re quote being respectful, and competing like others will compete,” said Ned Colletti, general manager of the Los Angeles Dodgers. “We have to be wise in our decision-making at the moment of truth.”
Tazawa whetted scouts’ appetites again Monday, when he threw a five-hit shutout for Japan Oil in the national amateur tournament. It is believed that at least a half-dozen teams will actively pursue him, including the Boston Red Sox, the Braves and the Seattle Mariners, with offers that could reach $2 million to $5 million.
Tazawa has no intention of reconsidering his decision. Whether he blazes any trail for others, or if future rules are adapted for the changing global marketplace, he will find out with everyone else.
“I’m looking forward to signing with an American team and seeing what I can do,” he said. “The appeal of matching power against power is too great for me to pass up.
By Bryan
November 20, 2008 8:51 PM | Link to this
wow, the irony …
On the same day of O’Flaherty’s debut, the Seattle Times reported that his “big-league visit was too short to qualify as a cup of coffee”. The night before he had been flown in from Triple-A Tacoma in order to replace a seemingly injured Rafael Soriano. When O’Flaherty arrived, Soriano convinced coaches he was healthy enough to remain on the Mariners’ roster, so O’Flaherty was sidelined out of uniform for the rest of the night.
By Yars
November 20, 2008 8:55 PM | Link to this
The flick, Dodgeball is on FX now. ‘Always Sunny….’ follows. I wonder how many times Wren has said, “KJ’s defense is improving dramatically,” to other teams during trade talks? :P
By Tomas
November 20, 2008 8:56 PM | Link to this
I think the Braves should reconsider the option of moving Kelly Johnson back to left field. He is a very good hitter, and I think next year is the year when he finally delivers the 20-25 homers. I think he has improved a lot in second base, but Prado is a better fielder. C Brian McCann, 1B Casey Kotchman, 2B Martin Prado, 3B Chipper Jones, SS Yunel Escobar, LF Kelly Johnson, CF Jordan Schafer, RF Jeff Franceour, SP Aj Burnett, SP Jair Jurrjens, SP Mike Hampton, SP Randy Wolf, SP Jorge Campillo.
Keep Yunel, you get an ace in Burnett, keep Boyer, Morton, Gorkys, sign Tazawa(5 million), resign Ohman(3yrs 11 million), Norton(1.75million), and Smoltz(2million + incentives(max of 6 million)) and Glavine(2million + incentives(max of 4 million)) if they can pitch of course. Really no need to trade, but Wren needs to offer Burnett a 5 yr deal worth 83 million(OUTBID the Yankees, and Redsox). Sign Mike Hampton(1yr 4million + incentives(max of 7 million)), and sign Randy Wolf(2 yrs 14 million).
If incentives arren’t given, then it all sums to a total of 41 million, with incentives 49 million.
There will be a lot of depth in the rotation:
SP Aj Burnett, SP Jair Jurrjens, SP Mike Hampton, SP Randy Wolf, SP Jorge Campillo, SP Tom Glavine, SP Tommy Hanson, SP Junichi Tazawa, SP Tim Hudson, and SP Charlie Morton.
And in the bulpen as well:
RHP Jorge Campillo, John Smoltz, Manny Acosta, Rafael Soriano, Blaine Boyer, Peter Moylan, and Jeff Bennet.
LHP Mike Gonzales, Jeff Ridgeway, Eric O’Flaherty.
No Jake Peavy, or Roy Halladay, but a very solid team.
By Bobby's Cox
November 20, 2008 8:58 PM | Link to this
thanks for the article braveheart.
Someone tell Cashman that building a team full of free agents and million dollar pitchers ain’t exactly “old school” either.
By An Odds Game
November 20, 2008 9:02 PM | Link to this
Better odds?
Peavy getting hurt
or
Tazawa being an elite major-league pitcher?
Depending on those odds, I might rather sign Tazawa with a $5 million bonus plus contract than go through with the Jake Peavy scenario.
By Joe M.
November 20, 2008 9:02 PM | Link to this
A couple of thoughts, re: Wren chat.
Thanatos:Who will be the big free agents from the Braves next year? Will you attempt to lock any up long-term before next offseason?
Wren: Our only free agents next year will be Gonzo, Soriano and Omar Infante. We’ll evaluate that later in the season.
I thought Chipper was a free agent after 2009?
preacherj: Frank, thanks for taking my question. In looking for a power bat in the outfield, how much does left- vs. right-handed play into things? We have several lefties that could hit consecutively it seems. Does this affect if you look only for a right-handed bat?
*Wren: We would prefer a right-handed bat, because of our left-handed hitters we already have. And the vast majority of our kids coming are left-handed hitters. But if you look at our key returning guys, McCann, Kelly Johnson and Kotchman, they all hit left-handed pitchers as well or better than they hit right-handers. We can go either way, really. *
rbt778: Kelly Johnson is a natural left fielder and a pretty good No. 7 hitter. How about Dye or Ordonez trade for power bat and let Hernandez or Blanco go for the trade?
Wren: Kelly is a natural shortstop who we moved to left field, and he had a tremendous last six weeks and he is getting better at second base all the time.
Doesn’t sound like they’re trading Johnson. I don’t mind trading Johnson in the right deal, but trading him for over 30 Ludwick’s fluke year is a steal for the Cardinals.
By chuckw/deadjournalist
November 20, 2008 9:05 PM | Link to this
Has there been any discussion on the broadcasting team for ‘09?
By Steve from OH
November 20, 2008 9:12 PM | Link to this
Joe M., FW also said that “the infield is set,” and that Yunel wasn’t on the block, but you’d probably have to re-read the chat to get the full context of the quotes.
I like keeping Kelly, though I know I’m in the minority. Definitely not up for trading him for Ludwick. Good to see FW is not actively shopping Yunel, anyway. You can calm down, Scoots.
By LT-A blogger
November 20, 2008 9:21 PM | Link to this
DOB, In your opinion, is there any magic domino that has to fall before Peavy gets dealt. For example, AJ Burnette goes to blank.
He and Lowe are the names always discussed here. Everything I read indicates Lowe wants to go back to the AL. Burnette seems to be the X factor (other than CC but no way we get him).
By wiki
November 20, 2008 9:29 PM | Link to this
I’ve now read three independent, “inside”, unsubstantiated stories on three different blogs that indicate Peavy wants to be a Cubbie. Certainly they all could be made up stories but it makes you think twice when they all point towards the windy city.
By Yars
November 20, 2008 9:37 PM | Link to this
Joe M……thanks a lot for posting part of the chat transcript Wren participated in. I still hope it’s possible to acquire 2 SP & a power hitting LF without giving up KJ and/or Yunel. Sure, Ludwick had an awesome ‘08, but like some of you have stated, perhaps it was a fluke. No way I would trade KJ for Ludwick.
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 9:38 PM | Link to this
Tomas, I loved your post at 8:56, but the only thing that I would change would be to dump Boyer. Just about everytime he was brought into a situation where the Braves were winning, it was almost a no-brainer that he would cough it up. I say he needs to go, but other than that, I wholly agree with you, bro.
By Chuck James is solid until the 6th!! (Formerly Steve-O)
November 20, 2008 9:40 PM | Link to this
Peavy will be got, all this talk is just tireless for something inevitable….
Charlie: DAYMAN!!! Dennis: AwwaaaOOOOOOOO Charlie: Fighter of the NIGHT-MAN!!!..Champion of the SUN…… Dennis: AwwaaaOOOOOOOO Together: and Master of KARATE and Friendship for EVERYONE!!!!!
FX does kick a* and Always Sunny in Philadelphia is HESTERICAL, Charlie is flawless and it’s so ridiculously random and well written and Danny Devito is perfect too. DOB and anyone who watches how do you think Entourage will proceed after they get back to Queens?
Just switchin it up cause nothin new is goin down now and DOB mentioned FX…
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 9:40 PM | Link to this
Joe M. Doesn’t sound like they’re trading Johnson.
Good.
27-3!!
By Roman Gal
November 20, 2008 9:40 PM | Link to this
McFann I go to a school where I can see the Rome Braves play because the stadium is about 2 miles away from it.
Truett Cathy also has a house here.
By Roman Gal
November 20, 2008 9:44 PM | Link to this
Efrim On the last blog you posted a Q&A with Kieth Law where he said that he thinks Tommy Hanson has Ace potential.
I’m really glad to finally see that, because so far everything still said that he had a #2 ceiling. Thanks for posting that. It’s good to hear.
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this
I wouldn’t take Peavy because A. He doesn’t really want to play here, and B. His elbow is some concern. I know I sound like a broken record, but does anyone recall the Len Barker trade? The trade that haunted Atlanta? The Braves traded for Len Barker who came from Cleveland. Not long after becoming a Brave, he blew his elbow out. This whole Peavy thing sounds too much like that scenario. C’mon people, especially the “Get Peavy” supporters. This thing still doesn’t feel right and I’m hoping the Braves can go elsewhere to look for their pitching concerns.
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 9:47 PM | Link to this
I just wished we could keep Yunel off the block…why make another whole by plugging up another.
By brian
November 20, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this
DOB - did you see any of True Blood this year?
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this
Chuck James is solid: I don’t think they’ll stay in Queens too long on Entourage, do you? Show’s gotta be set in L.A. I bet they’re back there, maybe finish out this season in Queens, but no more than that I’d guess.
And you’re right, not just Charlie but all the characters on Always Sunny are terrific….
Roman Gal, where did you hear that Hanson had a “No. 2 ceiling?” No way. You must’ve been reading scouting reports from a year ago or more. His outlook and scouting reports changed quite a bit in the past year. No scout would say he’s merely a No. 2-ceiling guy now….
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 10:00 PM | Link to this
Salty Dawg, I’ve watched Always Sunny from the get-go. Subversive, politically incorrect, hilarious.
I wish FX would pick up Arrested Development, that’s what I wish they’d pick up.
By Roman Gal
November 20, 2008 10:05 PM | Link to this
DOB, they were old ones…but I’d never seen it actually written anywhere (by scouts or whatever) that his “ceiling” was higher.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 10:08 PM | Link to this
Roman Gal—
Ah! OK! That’s cool! Good luck with your studies!
Boy…I hope Tech cann keep this up in their next game!
By world-B
November 20, 2008 10:10 PM | Link to this
fx shows, in order of greatness: 1. The Shield 2. NipTuck (before the last two years 3. Sons of Anarchy 4. Rescue Me (Great first year, not so much after that. 5. Damages (Good Season One, looking forward to 2) Never could get into Dirt. Nor Sunny. Probably missed the boat on Sunny.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 10:15 PM | Link to this
What the VORP—a Mets fan?
There’s a Mets fan at the Tech-Miami game…and a Gator fan…
Night, all!
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 10:17 PM | Link to this
Oh man…there’s a Braves fan, too…
By Tomas
November 20, 2008 10:17 PM | Link to this
Thanks Flustered Fan,
I think Boyer might be designated for assignment, because he’s run out of options, thats why he made it in spring training along with Chris Resop, and they traded Tyler Yates. Anyway I think that if Peter Moylan, Rafael Soriano, Manny Acosta, Jeff Bennet, and Mike Gonzales all are completely healthy, I have a hard time believing Boyer would win the job against those guys.
But I think the chances of my 8:56 post happening are slim, because I get the impression Frank Wren won’t offer Aj Burnett a 5 yr deal worth more than 80 million. And I prefer that he would sign Wolf over Byrd, but Byrd is cheaper, and a more familiar face.
For me signing Burnett, Wolf, Hampton, Ohman, Norton, Smoltz, Glavine, and Junichi Tazawa will be a very good alternative plan. And I think is very posible considering the payroll is going up and the Braves have 45-48 million to spend on the FA market.
For sure beats signing Jon Garland, and Paul Byrd.
We can use Boyer as a trade bait along with Jo-jo Reyes, Brandon Jones and Matt Diaz and get an outfielder maybe Gary Matthews jr.(only if the Angels pay his contract), or someone like Coco Crisp, Mark Teahen, Ty Wigginton, Matt Kemp.
Those players like Blaine Boyer, Brandon Jones, Matt Diaz, Jo-jo Reyes we can afford to trade because they generate interest, and don’t have a spot in the team. In Yunel Escobar’s case, that’s a player we would have to spend a lot of money to replace, trading him would hurt.
By Random
November 20, 2008 10:18 PM | Link to this
Flustered Fan nuggets:
“I’ll believe this trade when it and if it happens.”
That’s “when and if”, not “when it and if it” — see Chomsky’s “Some Concepts and Consequences of the Theory of Government and Binding” or his “Syntactic Structures” to get a clue on raising and nesting NPs.
“DOB, If Yunel is dealt away, won’t that leave a big whole at shortstop?”
Hole?
“If Towers can’t move Peavy,he might have to concede Greene as part of the deal.”
Oh, yeah — I can hear Towers now: “Oh, please, Frank, don’t throw me into that there briar patch! Don’t rip Khalil from my heaving, loving bosom!”
“Alright, I’m obviously missing something on Greene.”
…
“I don’t blog everyday so I really don’t know.”
A word to the wise should be sufficient — read before you write.
“Well, I was just researching on Greene and his numbers weren’t too impressive this past season. But, he’s still younger than Renteria or Furcal, and you never know when he might heat back up.”
Oh, yeah — any day now, he’ll heat right back up to his one-year flash-in-the-pan 2004 numbers, after four straight years of declining performance.
“I guess I’m just saying the Braves shouldn’t shoot themselves in the foot by giving up a decent (though moody) shortstop.”
Totally agree. The only (type) player I’d be willing to part with Escobar for is (a true ace like) Peavy. (Parens for Halladay possibility.)
“I was just wondering, just wondering, mind you, why the Pads want take Johnson”
Good question — perceptions, I think. Escobar may be perceived to have a higher “ceiling” at a more difficult position than Johnson. (But see my contemplated later comment on possibility of KJ sliding over to SS if YE is traded.)
“They also have to have a back-up plan for a 3rd baseman. Chipper’s good and all, but, almost like clock work, he ends up on the DL. Man, I’d hate to have to be a GM right now.”
Wholly Ess, man, if that was Frank Wren’s (or any GM’s) biggest conundrum, he’d be working for tips, and the foremost question on his mind would be “Will that be papaer or pastic, Ma’am?” The Braves’ve still got Infante and Prado and Lillibridge. Covering for Chipper in 2009 is the least of Wren’s problems.
I could go on, but enough’s enough.
By Roman Gal
November 20, 2008 10:23 PM | Link to this
DOB. Although, John Sickels did write this:
3) Thomas Hanson, RHP, Grade B+: Looks good to me, though will need some Triple-A to put on the finishing touches. Number Two starter ceiling.
By Tomas
November 20, 2008 10:29 PM | Link to this
I was just looking at Gary Matthews jr. contract…WHAT A RIP OFF..
signed 5-year deal worth $50M thru 2011 season on 11/22/06- + he receives a $2M signing bonus and salaries of $6M in 2007, $9M in 2008, $10M in 2009, $11M in 2010 and $12M in 2011- + the deal includes a complete NO-TRADE clause thru October 2009- + after October 2009, he receives a limited NO-TRADE clause that allows him to select four teams to which he cannot be traded to without his consent- + he receives a $500K assignment bonus every time he is traded- + 2006 salary: $2,387,500 (+ $100K in bonuses), 2005 salary: $1.1M (+ $125K in bonuses) Agent: Danny Horwits
And they have him as backup, because they signed Tori Hunter last year. WOW.(By the way he is a terrific fielder, and hit 285 against lefties, might be a good platoon guy in center field). But if the Angels pay the majority of his contract.
DOB, when a player has a COMPLETE no trade clause, can he still be traded if he want’s to?
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 10:30 PM | Link to this
Random Tool it sounds like you’re an expert. This is a blog where people can ask questions, not to try and belittle other…keep blogging, and I’ll pull some Random Nuggets out and put them on display.
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 10:32 PM | Link to this
Random, if I misunderstood something here, then I’ll take the beating.
By TennesseePaul
November 20, 2008 10:32 PM | Link to this
I wish FX would pick up Arrested Development, that’s what I wish they’d pick up.
I had the pleasure of meeting Jeffrey Tambor a while back. He’s a really nice guy. Loves books. Just loves ‘em.
I love Arrested Development. The cool thing about this though, when I met Jeffrey he was on his way out of town to do a film.
Arrested Development the movie should be coming out in 2009.
By Dixie Dawg
November 20, 2008 10:34 PM | Link to this
Hmmmm….nothing like over sensitive bloggers…Flustered
By Tomas
November 20, 2008 10:42 PM | Link to this
DOB,
From your personal, and profesional opinion, who do you see as a better pitcher Phillip Hughes or Tommy Hanson?
By Dixie Dawg
November 20, 2008 10:45 PM | Link to this
Be nice if Peavy was gift-wrapped and placed under Frank Wren’s Christmas tree.
By braves n dawgs
November 20, 2008 10:53 PM | Link to this
DOB, Roman Gal is right about Hanson’s projection. Jasob Stark says that scouts are projecting Hanson as a #3. He disagrees, saying he should be higher, but apparently everyone there are some scouts not 100% sold on the guy. Here is what he said in his Rumblings and Grumblings” section:
• Braves pitcher Tommy Hanson (5-0, 0.67 ERA, 49 strikeouts, 28 2/3 innings pitched): “If he doesn’t make their club next spring, he’ll be their first call-up. He’s really close. He’s got good command of three pitches. He’s a very good athlete for a kid who’s 6-[foot]-6. He’s got a good feel for pitching. I can see why they wouldn’t put him in that [Jake] Peavy deal. *I hear other scouts say he’s a No. 3 starter. Hell, he’s better than that.” *
By Bubdylan
November 20, 2008 11:00 PM | Link to this
Flustered, I have sort of been in your shoes on this blog before (though, I dare say, not so deep in them). The sarcasm is deep and a little icy, but, to pervert Billy Joel, “it’s better than bloggin’ alone.”
Anyway, if you don’t take a week or so to mostly read quietly, and then jump in with a little idea about what’s been said, you’re taking a big risk. There is more respect for your opinion to be found here than it probably looks like right now. But you might consider a more… uh… studied approach. (New screen name wouldn’t hurt your cause, either, at this point. Just sayin…) Good luck.
By braves n dawgs
November 20, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this
Sorry about the sloppy typing/incoherent sentences. I hope you get the gist of what I’m saying. I shouldn’t watch football and type at the same time…… the Jackets are making me nervous, what a beat-down on Miami.
By Outside the Box
November 20, 2008 11:02 PM | Link to this
After the Braves trade Escobar and others for Peavy, I’ve got the perfect solution: Why not bring back Andruw Jones to play SS? Get LA to eat the majority of his contract, and plug him at SS. When the Braves scouts went to get their first look at Andruw, they thought they were going to scout a shortstop. AJ surprised them when he trotted out to centerfield to take flyballs. Low budget solution, right there y’all! And AJ’s itchin’ to come home.
By Steve from OH
November 20, 2008 11:07 PM | Link to this
Guys, if FW thought Hanson was a #3, he’d already be a Padre. I think his stock has gone up significantly as of late. I’ve read where scouts think he’ll end up being as good as Peavy.
By nolie
November 20, 2008 11:08 PM | Link to this
. The common misunderstanding of the entire book of Moneyball was that people thought it was only about on-base percentage. The point of the topic was, as a GM you have to look for undervalued skill sets. At the time, on base percentage was that undervalued skill set. Bean still follows this philosophy.TennPaul
very true
By braves n dawgs
November 20, 2008 11:16 PM | Link to this
I don’t think he is a #3. I’m just pointing out he may not be the consensus stud that Wren and most of us on this blog think he will be, including myself. I’m thrilled about seeing his first start in Atlanta, and think he is going to be a centerpiece of the next dynasty of dominant Braves pitching. Just saying, apparently all the scouts aren’t sold…. yet
By nolie
November 20, 2008 11:18 PM | Link to this
He thinks Paul Byrd would be a great addition. He also mentioned that Diaz is still a good hitter and has worked hard in the offseason and is in great shape. He also doesn’t feel pressured to spend the 45 million. 09 here we come!!TennJed
This is more like what I’ve been expecting to happen all along.
By Bubdylan
November 20, 2008 11:19 PM | Link to this
Outside the Box, you could crush the box, soak it in gas, torch it, and blast the ashes into space and AJ at SS would still seem crazy. Last time I saw a Dodger highlight of him diving for a ball, it looked like somebody slung a giant seal onto flypaper. Wish my car had brakes like that.
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 11:20 PM | Link to this
Thanks BubDylan that’s good advice. I’m just a part-time blogger. I guess it does seem to make me look rather ignorant, but, hypothetically speaking here, I should make sure I have my gun loaded before firing.
By Dixie Dawg
November 20, 2008 11:22 PM | Link to this
Ya’ll here about Steinbrenner relinquishing his control of the Yankees?
By Dixie Dawg
November 20, 2008 11:24 PM | Link to this
What’s the latest on Furcal’s status?
By nolie
November 20, 2008 11:27 PM | Link to this
but check my screen name. What kind of offensive player do you think I might have been, back in the day? Scoots
I always pictured you as running..to the bathroom alll the time. What we always called the scoots * ;-)*
By Bill
November 20, 2008 11:28 PM | Link to this
thanks for the updates. it is always baseball season.
By Dixie Dawg
November 20, 2008 11:28 PM | Link to this
AJ at shortstop…that’s kind of scary…all he would to do is turn sideways and his gut would plug up the left side. Sorry, that was mean.
By Bubdylan
November 20, 2008 11:42 PM | Link to this
nolie, lmao @ the scoots
By Random
November 20, 2008 11:46 PM | Link to this
Flustered Fan: “This is a blog where people can ask questions, not to try and belittle other…keep blogging, and I’ll pull some Random Nuggets out and put them on display.”
Feel free — I’m as vulnerable to criticism as anyone else who posts here. After all, I do post my own comments myself.
So when/if I do ask a question that has been addressed a half a dozen times on each of the three previous blogs (just as, y’ know, a hypothetical f’r’xample), please do call it to my attention. (Second word to the wise, since the first appears not to have been sufficient: read before you write.)
(And, oh — if you only knew how — I’ve a rich history and written record of no-holds-barred comments over the past couple of years here that are veritably ripe for your criticism. Have at it — if only you knew how. And were willing to read.)
And just how belittling was it to you for me to agree with you on losing Escobar, or on Johnson’s/Escobar’s perceived comparative values?
“if I misunderstood something here, then I’ll take the beating.”
Gambatte, kudasai! (“Persevere!” per Mitchie-san.)
(And PS: develop and nurture your sense of humor. My first three jibes were of a JK variety — who would seriously jump on somebody for a “hole”/”whole” typo/malapropism? We usually tend to take those kinds of slips for granite here, don’t we, Original Jon?)
By Outside the Box
November 20, 2008 11:55 PM | Link to this
I’m tellin’ you: With Bobby as his coach again, Andruw could handle SS. That’s the position that AJ has always wanted to play. And he’d probably settle in mentally and listen to Terry Pendleton too. Heck, AJ would be slapping the ball all over the field and hitting in all directions. 40+ HRs, 110+ RBI, a .300 BA, and a gold glove—as Shortstop! Bring the man home. It’s so easy to see. And bring back Klesko as our power bat for the outfield—but Klesko bats lefthanded, doesn’t he? Well rats … torch the whole idea then.
By Bubdylan
November 20, 2008 11:56 PM | Link to this
malapropism?? Damn. shuts down computer. goes to bed.
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 11:58 PM | Link to this
easy Random, cool your jets.
By Flustered Fan
November 20, 2008 11:59 PM | Link to this
Random, I do have a sense of humor. I look in the mirror everyday, my friend. No hard feelings, please.
By Saff
November 21, 2008 12:01 AM | Link to this
DOB In the chat today Frank Wren said he has talked to Kenny Williams and discussed some names of course he will not say who. The best match from the white sox for the Braves would be Jermaine Dye he is a power hitting right handed outfielder that fits a hole we need. Have you heard anything about this, also do you agree this would be a good trade? Moving towards the rotation does your gut feeling say we get Burnett, Lowe, or neither?
By Random
November 21, 2008 12:01 AM | Link to this
THE BEAR: “Wren made a couple of interesting statements… . About KJ. ‘Johnson is a natural shortstop who we changed to an outfielder and then brought back at second and he is improving dramatically with his play at that position.’ … Note: I am paraphrasing both but they are close to actual quotes.”
Wow!!! I’m surprised no one here has followed up on this.
If the Braves do trade Escobar, how unreasonable would it be to have the serious options of either (a) backfilling somehow (trade/FA) at SS or (b) sliding KJ to SS and backfilling at 2B, with either Prado, trade or FA?
This is totally intriguing to me, for some reason.
DOB has previously repeatedly pooh-poohed the notion of sliding KJ back to LF, which is a totally pooh-poohable suggestion, but KJ to SS??? Things that make you go “Hmmmmm.”
By TennesseePaul
November 21, 2008 12:02 AM | Link to this
He also doesn’t feel pressured to spend the 45 million
News to me. I’ve been told this team wouldn’t ever enter the season with a $60 million dollar payroll.
I doubt they will. I understand his statement. He doesn’t have to spend it wouldn’t improve the team. I’d rather him not in that case. He could blow it real fast by making Burnett a higher paid pitcher than CC. It’d be the oddest thing in the world to do. Spend that much on AJ you might as well be bidding on CC.
Whatever he does I hope he can address Chipper’s contract and get him wrapped up for a while. Chipper has said he’d like to play for 4 more years or so. I hope he can. I’d love to see him get to 500 homers as a Brave.
By Random
November 21, 2008 12:12 AM | Link to this
tennessejed: “Frank Wren said in his chat today that the Peavy talks are off, and that they are looking elsewhere. He thinks Paul Byrd would be a great addition. He also mentioned that Diaz is still a good hitter and has worked hard in the offseason and is in great shape. He also doesn’t feel pressured to spend the 45 million. 09 here we come!!”
nolie, I think Byrd would not be a bad acquisition at all as the 3rd pitcher the Braves pick up in the off-season, but I too think they should definitely set their sights higher for the first two — eyes on the prize. Prizes. Eyeses on the prizes. Peavy and Lowe/Burnett.
And I think Diaz would still be worth it as an almost “elite” RH batter. But not as the slugging OF the Braves are seeking. Depending on what happens with Norton, he may be squeezed off the 25-man roster. Because of the numbers. 25. 25 numbers. You know?
By braves n dawgs
November 21, 2008 12:13 AM | Link to this
Kelly Johnson is a mediocre at best defensive 2nd baseman. Why in the world do you think he could play shortstop, a position that’s probably 5 times more difficult defensively?
By Dixie Dawg
November 21, 2008 12:14 AM | Link to this
Is Furcal still available?
By nolie
November 21, 2008 12:18 AM | Link to this
DOB has previously repeatedly pooh-poohed the notion of sliding KJ back to LF, which is a totally pooh-poohable suggestion, but KJ to SS??? Things that make you go “Hmmmmm.”Random
Hmmm. I really didn’t get that as a possibility from reading those comments. Just aspraise for his athleticism and hard work. Perhaps I wasn’t paying enough attention. But i do remember how abysmal he was as a young SS, so perhaps that influenced my thinking too. I would be VERY surprised to see them play him at SS in the bigs.
By Dixie Dawg
November 21, 2008 12:21 AM | Link to this
Paul Byrd is still not too old to have a good impact.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 21, 2008 12:25 AM | Link to this
Dixie Dawg According to Jeff Passan, Furcal has been offered many three-year deals, but he wants a four-year contract. Furcal’s agent, Paul Kinzer confirmed that the Orioles, Braves, Giants, Cubs, Dodgers and A’s are interested, along with one unnamed “mystery” team TR
I just don’t see it happening with his four year demand. Thats not even factoring the 4 or 5 they would have a bidding war with.
Might have to look at other options..
maybe we should give Flustered Fan a break he is flustered after all……..;)
By Random
November 21, 2008 12:31 AM | Link to this
braves n dawgs: “Kelly Johnson is a mediocre at best defensive 2nd baseman. Why in the world do you think he could play shortstop, a position that’s probably 5 times more difficult defensively?”
Because Frank Wren said so? (Or did he?)
nolie — well, maybe you’re probably right; I may have totally misinterpreted Wren’s remarks. (I should say “probably misinterpreted”, upon further re-reading.)
I really don’t remember how bad or good KJ was at SS — I’ll take both y’all’s word for it.
I guess I jumped the gun and went off half-cocked, little snake that I am. (Small joke there for the resident herpetologists.)
Oh, well — thanks for the gentle corrections, gents.
By Chuck James is solid until the 6th!! (Formerly Steve-O)
November 21, 2008 12:34 AM | Link to this
Yeh man I can see 2 episodes maybe 3 in Queens then somethin will pop with Ari, you can’t get rid of him can you? He is an epic charachter, my favorite scene being when he tracks down Adam Davies, just perfect…
I agree all charachters in Always Sunny are great but Charlie just has that extra perfection. Ya know?
By mitchie-san
November 21, 2008 12:41 AM | Link to this
Arigato for the plug, Random.
By Dixie Dawg
November 21, 2008 12:46 AM | Link to this
Heh heh, Owl, shooting you a wink and pointing an index finger. Thanks.
By uga-brave
November 21, 2008 12:47 AM | Link to this
just got back from the thrashers game. good game even though the thrashers lost.
sat in section 103 not too far behind the owners box and a couple of fans were really giving it to rutherford seidel. for those who dont know he is the son-in-law of TED and a 10% owner in the atlanta spirit.
he is also a whiney pseudo millionaire crying poverty. he says he is being forced to sell his stake because the franchises are losing money?
note to RUT , basically you have owned two sports franchises where half the league gets into the playoffs.
atlanta spirit have owned both these franchises five years, two playoff appearances combined.
By Random
November 21, 2008 12:57 AM | Link to this
mitchie-san—
Doitashi mashite.
And Aloha nui loa!!! (Is that right?)
Shoulda known you’d still be up. What are you doing in HI?
(Or are you going to make me go back and look up your previous explanations to DOB? I’d do that for you, y’know.)
nolie— What probably screwed me up is I focused too much on Wren’s lead-in: “Johnson is a natural shortstop”
is, not was. I probably read too much into that single word.
I guess ol’ what’s-‘is-name was right — it all really does depend on what the meaning of “is” is.
Nytol.
By McRomanGirl Fann
November 21, 2008 1:10 AM | Link to this
Wherever Hanson’s ceiling is, it’s lower than Roman Girl’s ceiling.
The only thing that would make an attractive girl more attractive would be finding out that she is a knowlegable baseball fan.
Wish the old lady knew what a scouting report was.
By uga-brave
November 21, 2008 1:19 AM | Link to this
kinda funny how the two major league players the braves have offered up are not bobby favorites.
dob, may or may not confirm this but bobby pretty much blew a fuse on boyer when he lied about his health coming out of spring training in 2006. he had a great 2005 call up and the braves were to depend on him in 2006.
boyer said his arm felt fine all spring, threw two games on the west coast and that was his selfish arse season.
without blaine, who definitely has a high opinion of himself, boyer we would of never had ken “THE DEATH,’ray who had his moments.
esco is definitely not a bobby guy. laugh if you want but i will defer to #6.
the guy has a eye for long term talent.
that’s why i have never said trade francoeur.
been critical of the fact that he played everyday, but i never was critical of his effort.
so we will see. hard not to pull for the guy as a person.
he is one of those athletes that gets it or sure says the right things when being interviewed in the off season.
By BA
November 21, 2008 1:28 AM | Link to this
If the Braves traded Escobar, Morton, and Hernandez (please, don’t trade Hernandez) for Jake Peavy, and Peavy had to have Tommy Johnson surgery a month into the spring, and missed a year- it would STILL have been worth it. That’s how valuable an ace is these days, and that’s how ridiculously cheap his contract is, compared to Santana, Sabathia, etc.
And comparing trading five players for an ace (with four more years on his contract) is in NO way comparable to trading five players for Teixeira (with one year left on his deal). Whether you think the Teixeira trade was good or bad, the scenarios are just completely different.
By BayAreaSteve
November 21, 2008 1:53 AM | Link to this
Bubdylan, 11:19, freakin’ beautiful.
Poetry, sir.
Oh yeah, where’s whiskey?
By mitchie-san
November 21, 2008 2:03 AM | Link to this
Random Mahalo!. I left Japan about a year ago and got orders to Hawaii. ( I’m in the U.S. Navy ) Its still early to me over here…about 9pm for me. Usually everyone is asleep while I read all the posts from throughout the day. That makes for me to not be able to ge into too many converations (arguments???) with the rest of the Denziens. I usually just post my thoughts after I take in all the different ideas.
By BayAreaSteve
November 21, 2008 2:10 AM | Link to this
I can’t believe that scoots is 5’2” and couldn’t hit his way out of a wet paper bag.
scoots…an educated Juan Pierre?
By nolie
November 21, 2008 2:11 AM | Link to this
nolie— What probably screwed me up is I focused too much on Wren’s lead-in: “Johnson is a natural shortstop”
is, not was. I probably read too much into that single word.Random
hey, you might be right. I wasn’t correcting you, just offering what i thought was a more likely interpretation. I could as easily have misinterpreted it as you. One never knows for sure, do one?
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 21, 2008 2:16 AM | Link to this
Ok, I’m tired of arguing with two bloggers in particular. So, it’s time to educate and teach the gangster ninja’s.
Steve in Ohio wrote at 7:02 PM:
Look, man, I do agree with you that a championship team builds around pitching and defense (and in my younger days, I would have agreed on the speed, too. But times change. Get over it and get with the times, dude). But when you suggest that we play inferior offensive players because they’re fast and “speed never slumps,” or whatever catchphrase you want to use, it’s just silly. It makes zero sense.
JimD wrote at 8:38 PM:
Today’s smaller parks and their natural grass along with the natural evolution of the game keep speed from being as much of a weapon as it once.
But, to Coach’s credit, speed is still a valuable tool. Obviously, all things equal I would choose the more mobile player over the more cumbersome one. It’s just that speed doesn’t kill anymore, but it does irritate.
The both of you are uninformed, ignorant and completely self absorbed to the point of being stupid and here is why.
The running game is back and it’s been that way for the past five years. The success rate of the stolen base has exploded as the following stats prove it.
In 2004 base runners were able to steal successfully 70.2 percent of the time.
2005 = 70.6 percent
2006 = 71.4 percent
2007 = 74.4 percent
2008 = 73.0 percent
Now, anybody with half a brain in the game of baseball knows that once that 70 percent barrier is broken, run production goes up and the value of the stolen base outweighs the risk of making an out. It’s a fact, jack.
Now, to explain why I believe that what Whitey Herzog taught and practiced is even more successful today than ever before. And it is because the game of baseball is finally being played in it’s T-O-T-A-L-I-T-Y. I know, it’s a big word.
Simply put, teams that run and hit HR’s are going to be more successful than teams that don’t and here is the proof. Ten of the following eleven teams did just that this past year, including the one that Won it all and the team they beat.
Boston Red Sox 95-67, 173 HR’s and 120 SB’s
L.A. Angels 100-62, 159 HR’s and 129 SB’s
N.Y. Mets 89-72, 172 HR’s and 138 SB’s
Tampa Bay Rays 97-65, 180 HR’s and 142 SB’s
Philadelphia Phillies 92-70, 214 HR’s and 136 SB’s
Milwaukee Brewers 90-72, 198 HR’s and 108 SB’s
N.Y. Yankees 89-75, 180 HR’s and 118 SB’s
Minnesota Twins 88-75, 111 HR’s and 102 SB’s
Houston Astros 86-75, 167 HR’s and 114 SB’s
Colorado Rockies 74-88, 160 HR’s and 141 SB’s. It should be noted that they played in the 2007 WS.
Ten out of eleven had winning records. All eleven breached the century mark in HR’s and Stolen bases and six made the playoffs.
It should also be noted that both the Cubs and White Sox were knocked out of the playoffs in the first round. both were top heavy in HR hitters and lacking in the base running department.
Teams that hit the HR and steal bases are going to be more successful than teams which rely solely on the HR (Earl Weaver is rolling in his grave). Pitching and defense go hand in hand, as does the the HR and SB.
Speed kills, the stolen base does not slump (especially in the playoffs), baseball is meant to be played in it’s TOTALITY. Class dismissed !
By nolie
November 21, 2008 2:27 AM | Link to this
Frank Wren chat transcript Busy GM talks Hot Stove with Braves fans online
Frank Wren, the Braves’ executive vice president and general manager, answered questions from fans in a live Web chat on Thursday. Wren discussed the state of the starting rotation, who is and isn’t on the trading block, Jake Peavy and other trade rumors, Bobby Cox’s future and Ken Griffey Sr. Read what else Wren said in the chat transcript below.
Wren: Welcome, everyone. It seems like the offseason has been going on for six months instead of a month and a half. I’ll try to answer as many questions as possible.
glenn1981: What pitchers are you targeting, if any, in the trade world?
Wren: That is one, as you can imagine, that would be tough to answer publicly. Let’s just say we have several pitchers we have targeted.
proga91111: Are there any possibilities to have Tommy Hanson in the rotation for the start of next year?
Wren: Tommy has been tremendous in Arizona, we will let him continue to “show us” where he needs to pitch next year.
atlbrave82: Is Jordan Schafer going to get a chance to play center field this spring for Atlanta?
Wren: He was playing in Mexico until last week when he injured a finger and had to come home. He will be in the mix and I would say right now he is penciled in for Triple-A.
bigdaddy2: Has any thought being given to converting Tyler Flowers to a corner outfielder while still using him as the backup catcher every fifth day?
Wren: Tyler has played first base when he was rehabbing his knee in ‘07, but I think the outfield might be a bit of a stretch for him. He also has been very good in Arizona, as most of you know.
atlbrave82: Is Mike Hampton willing to come back at a large discount since he did not play much and was paid very well for a few years?
Wren: I think Mike is interested in coming back, and we will see where the negotiations end up. I know he likes this organization.
atlbrave82: I have heard that Rafael Furcal would be willing to come back to Atlanta for a discount price. If we trade Yunel Escobar, is that a possibilty?
Wren: I don’t want to get the cart before the horse, but in our discussions, Rafael would like to come back if the opportunity presented itself.
Thanatos: What will the Braves’ budget be in 2009?
Wren: It will be up again from last year. That is the third year in a row we have increased our payroll.
wdtr: What luck are you having at finding starting pitching since the Jake Peavy deal?
Wren: It’s a little early to tell. We have a lot of “lines in the water” and we will see if we can get some bites.
krickeys: What kind of inroads are being made with international scouting?
Wren: We didn’t really have to make inroads since we have one of, if not the strongest, international scouting staffs in the game. Johnny Almaraz and his staff are very highly thought of and extremely productive for us.
Thanatos: What was it like replacing what many consider a legend like John Schuerholz?
Wren: Having worked alongside John for so many years, I can’t try to be like John, but we have very similar views about putting a team together.
marsh10: Hey Frank, I’m going to work in a minute and wanted to know how the Peavy deal is going? And also, who are you looking at to man the outfield as a right-handed power hitter?
Wren: As we said last week, we have turned our focus in other directions. We are looking for a productive bat in the outfield, but they are scarce as well.
ozzy99: How will Tom Glavine and John Smoltz fit into next year’s rotation with the hopeful addition of some offseason pitching prospects along with young guns Jair Jurrjens and Jorge Campillo?
Wren: They will be great additions to our staff if and when they can pitch. We have to go about our offseason planning as if they won’t be back and then adjust if they are.
santori34: What are you doing about starting pitching and relievers? It was a serious problem last year.
Wren: Our starting pitching was a strength until all the injuries, and our bullpen should be very good with Peter Moylan and Rafael Soriano being healthy and with Mike Gonzalez for the whole year. We clearly have to acquire some starting pitching.
falcons360: Hey Frank, when are we going to get a pitcher?
Wren: I wish I knew. Hopefully soon.
Thanatos: We have all heard how you are currently trying to acquire pitching. What will you be looking at upgrading on the offensive side?
Wren: We need more production from our outfield, for sure.
krice42: Mr. Wren, what are your opinions on the use of instant replay?
Wren: I like the way it is being used at present, and we will see in the future if there is a desire to expand it.
kylan: How much of what goes on between GMs this time of year is “smoke-screening”?
Wren: Probably a lot. We all have our own styles of dealing with the media. Some are very open and others very closed. In today’s world, the media will run with any tidbit to beat the other guy. Sometimes it is with a little truth and a whole lot of supposition, as we saw firsthand in the Peavy story.
Thanatos: What is the plan if Jeff Francouer struggles again next year? Will you try to acquire a solid outfielder to back him up?
Hot Stove
Wren: We are counting on that not happening. There just aren’t that many solid guys available to start backing up your regulars, but we will have some depth in our outfield.
miguel561: What is the possibility that you could sign A.J. Burnett, knowing there are a lot of clubs after him?
Wren: It’s way too early to know the answer to that one. We would like to have him in our rotation, though.
Thanatos: How long till Tommy Hanson is a Major League starting pitcher?
Wren: Not too long. I’m not sure if that is sometime in ‘09 or the beginning of ‘10, but it’s not too far away.
Thanatos: Which arbitration-eligible player do you see getting a large pay raise?
Wren: All of our first-time arbitration-eligible players will get rather large raises, but we don’t have anyone off the charts like Ryan Howard last year.
BBKing: Is Escobar the only Brave on the trading block?
Wren: Escobar is not on the trading block. We have conversations about players regularly, but that doesn’t mean they are on “the block” — it just means they are desired by other clubs.
Thanatos: How did you get started in baseball?
Wren: I played in the Minor Leagues for five years, coached for four years and have been in the front office for 23 years.
Thanatos: What is your relationship with other GMs? Any that you prefer to avoid? Any that you would prefer to trade with?
Wren: Like anything else, there are only 30 GMs in the game, so we all are pretty friendly. There are none I avoid, but there are some that I prefer to deal with.
Thanatos: Tyler Flowers is blooming in the AFL, what is the future for him since Brian McCann is behind the plate?
Wren: We see him as a quality young power hitter and developing as a solid catcher. A lot of things can happen between now and when he arrives in the big leagues.
atticus11: Have there been any new talks with the Padres about acquiring Peavy?
Wren: No.
ukmatt2: Mr. Wren, congratulations on a positive start to your time as GM. How close are we to putting out a starting team as of today? Do you think the likes of Matt Diaz and Casey Kotchman are players that will help us move forwards as a team?
Wren: Thank you. We have our infield in place and we are still working on our outfield. I think Casey can clearly be part of our team going forward, and if we didn’t think so, clubs would line up for him based on the interest from other GMs. Matt had a tough year with the injury, but he is still a good hitter and has dedicated himself this winter and is in great shape.
Thanatos: Eventually, Bobby Cox will retire. Is there a person that you and the Braves are grooming to take over for him when the time comes?
Wren: Not yet. We will cross that bridge when the time comes.
onespeed: Frank, I was hoping you could share your view as a GM on how much you rely on statistical analysis (sabermetrics) when trying to fill out your 25-man roster?
Wren: It is one piece of the puzzle. It is important to understand the statistical “profile” for each position to help put the team together.
Thanatos: Have the Braves considered bringing Julio Franco back as a coach?
Wren: We have discussed the idea, but we don’t have a spot for him at this time.
gforce2: Have you received any indication from John Smoltz that he intends to pitch in 2009 ?
Wren: I talked to him last week, and he plans to try.
Thanatos: What percentage of Braves games do you attend in a season?
Wren: All home games and maybe 20 road games. I try to go see our Minor League teams when the big club goes out of town.
braves1524: What’s the chance of getting Ryan Ludwick this season?
Wren: I can’t discuss other teams’ players.
Thanatos: Who is your favorite ballplayer of all time?
Wren: Ken Griffey Sr. I bet that’s a surprise. I grew up a big Reds fan, and I loved his combination of speed and athleticism.
jakeyb1:Good day, Mr. Wren. I was wondering about Anthony Lerew’s status. Is he still with the organization? If so, how is he progressing?
Wren: He is pitching in Puerto Rico this winter. He had a lost year in ‘08 recovering from Tommy John surgery.
whirlic: Hi Frank. I think you have been doing a great job. What are we going to do about getting some new pitching? If we could sign Burnett, I would be ecstatic. I wish you continued success.
Wren: Thanks. I would take that, too!
jurrjens87: Have the Braves ever thought of maybe bringing Paul Byrd back and what’s the latest on Junichi Tazawa?
Wren: We have discussed Paul. He is a tremendous teammate and a dependable starting pitcher. Tazawa is still pitching for his industrial league team and has not finished his season, and therefore. he can’t sign yet.
preacherj: Frank, thanks for taking my question. In looking for a power bat in the outfield, how much does left- vs. right-handed play into things? We have several lefties that could hit consecutively it seems. Does this affect if you look only for a right-handed bat?
Wren: We would prefer a right-handed bat, because of our left-handed hitters we already have. And the vast majority of our kids coming are left-handed hitters. But if you look at our key returning guys, McCann, Kelly Johnson and Kotchman, they all hit left-handed pitchers as well or better than they hit right-handers. We can go either way, really.
lumbajack: With $40 million plus to spend this offseason, is there pressure to have to spend that money so the budget doesn’t get cut the next year?
Wren: No, that’s not an issue. The bigger issue is we want to build for the very long haul, so we want to hold onto our kids and to sign the right guys to supplement a very talented crop of young players. That is the bigger consideration.
onespeed: Are you ever frustrated by the MLB scheduling, especially when it comes to playing so many games within your division as well as how the strength of schedule for different teams varies so much during Interleague Play?
Wren: It is an argument that always come up, and it does frustrate you sometimes. It can’t be helped with the American League and the National League not being equal size. The divisions are not all equal size and traditional rivals not being the same strength. There are lots of difficult issues to deal with.
preacherj: Any indication on who will be the closer going into 2009? Is that completely Bobby’s call?
Wren: That is Bobby’s call, but based on ‘08, I think Gonzo will be the guy to beat when we report to Disney.
Thanatos:Who will be the big free agents from the Braves next year? Will you attempt to lock any up long-term before next offseason?
Wren: Our only free agents next year will be Gonzo, Soriano and Omar Infante. We’ll evaluate that later in the season.
braves1090: I’ve heard a lot of trade rumors involving Chicago White Sox and former Braves outfileder Jermaine Dye. Have you had any conversations with the White Sox’s GM?
Wren: I have had several conversations with Kenny Williams, but I can’t say who we talked about.
atlbrave82: Mr. Wren, I am from Atlanta, living in San Diego. I was wondering if Bobby Cox retires after this year, what are the chances of Terry Pendleton getting a shot as manager of the the Braves?
Wren: Terry is a very bright guy, and I think if he wants to manage, he will get consideration, as he has for other open managerial jobs in the past.
preacherj: Mr. Wren, any new word on how Smoltz/Glavine are doing this offseason?
Wren: They are both doing very well.
tpetrusa: Frank, what are the chances, if any, that we might be dealing with K.C. for their newly acquired Coco Crisp as a center-field option for 2009?
Wren:Unlikely.
hunterb55: Is Manny Ramirez a possible Braves player?
Wren: I don’t think so. He is very talented, though.
foo_g: Has it been discussed to move Chipper Jones to first base in an attempt to decrease the potential for injuries and ensure that his bat stays in the lineup? Does Casey Kotchman have the versatility to play some outfield under these circumstances?
Wren: Chipper is still a very good third baseman. His injuries by and large have nothing to do with the position he plays, so we are happy to leave him right there. He also wants to stay there.
koolmap: What are the chances that we can get two top-notch, front-of-the-rotation guys this offseason?
Wren: That’s our goal. But it is a limited market. We’ll have to see how it ends up.
snealinda: We haven’t seen much action in the free-agent/trading market with the Braves yet? Can we expect some type of movement soon?
Wren: The market as a whole has been slow. We have a lot of things we are working on. Hopefully soon.
atlbrave82: Have there been any recent talks with the Padres about Peavy, and are they really asking for too much or is it the no-trade clause that is the concern?
Wren: We never got that far.
Thanatos: Will you attempt to acquire a shortstop in the offseason, or trust that Escobar will not be traded?
Wren: Escobar is our shortstop.
ajax1031: Do you really think that resigning Hampton is a good idea? Don’t we need to get away from injury-prone players?
Wren: I think Mike is still a very good pitcher.
mattress25: Mr. Wren, are there any prospects in the Minors that are being overshadowed by Tommy Hanson, Jordan Schafer, etc., who may surprise us and may make the team out of Spring Training, as Gregor Blanco did in 2008?
Wren: I think our depth in our system is what makes us a prime trading partner for so many other clubs. We have enough depth at several positions that we can trade young players to fill needs without hurting our long-term plans. There are a couple names that come to mind, but I don’t want to put undue pressure on them by naming them here.
todd13: Do you think the Braves might want Brian Fuentes?
Wren: That’s really not a need of ours.
rbt778: Kelly Johnson is a natural left fielder and a pretty good No. 7 hitter. How about Dye or Ordonez trade for power bat and let Hernandez or Blanco go for the trade?
Wren: Kelly is a natural shortstop who we moved to left field, and he had a tremendous last six weeks and he is getting better at second base all the time.
Thanatos: What is the hardest thing about being a general manager in the MLB?
Wren: The amount of time spent dealing with non-baseball issues — media, agents etc. I have no complaints, but that’s just the hardest.
mattress25: Mr. Wren, how do you see the bullpen stacking up for 2009 with Mike Gonzalez closing and hopefully getting Rafael Soriano and Peter Moylan healthy?
Wren: Thats our strength, we think.
snealinda: We haven’t seen any action from the Braves yet this offseason. Should we be concerned as fans that we will not make many moves to improve?
Wren: It’s very early. Most things happen after Thanksgiving and Dec 1 — the arbitration offer date to free agents.
Wren: Thanks for all the questions, and we are working hard to put the best team on the field in ‘09 and beyond.
By Roll the hole
November 21, 2008 2:34 AM | Link to this
Speed kills, the stolen base does not slump (especially in the playoffs), baseball is meant to be played in it’s TOTALITY. Class dismissed !*Coach8
LOL. you are such a complete jack-azz, guy. You have still never explained how the Braves scored more runs that the Mets in ‘07, when the Mets stole three times as many bases as the Braves. They’re right, you really do need to get laid, dude.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 21, 2008 2:41 AM | Link to this
Ok, I’m tired of arguing with two bloggers in particular. So, it’s time to educate and teach the gangster ninja’s.
Steve in Ohio wrote at 7:02:
Look, man, I do agree with you that a championship team builds around pitching and defense (and in my younger days, I would have agreed on the speed, too. But times change. Get over it and get with the times, dude). But when you suggest that we play inferior offensive players because they’re fast and “speed never slumps,” or whatever catchphrase you want to use, it’s just silly. It makes zero sense.
JimD wrote at 8:38:
Today’s smaller parks and their natural grass along with the natural evolution of the game keep speed from being as much of a weapon as it once.
But, to Coach’s credit, speed is still a valuable tool. Obviously, all things equal I would choose the more mobile player over the more cumbersome one. It’s just that speed doesn’t kill anymore, but it does irritate.
The both of you are uninformed, ignorant and completely self absorbed to the point of being stupid and here is why.
The running game is back and it’s been that way for the past five years. The success rate of the stolen base has exploded as the following stats prove it.
In 2004 base runners were able to steal successfully 70.2 percent of the time.
2005 = 70.6 percent
2006 = 71.4 percent
2007 = 74.4 percent
2008 = 73.0 percent
Now, anybody with half a brain in the game of baseball knows that once that 70 percent barrier is broken, run production goes up and the value of the stolen base outweighs the risk of making an out. It’s a fact, jack.
Now, to explain why I believe that what Whitey Herzog taught and practiced is even more successful today than ever before. And it is because the game of baseball is finally being played in it’s T-O-T-A-L-I-T-Y. I know, it’s a big word.
Simply put, teams that run and hit HR’s are going to be more successful than teams that don’t and here is the proof. Ten of the following eleven teams did just that this past year, including the one that Won it all and the team they beat.
Boston Red Sox 95-67, 173 HR’s and 120 SB’s
L.A. Angels 100-62, 159 HR’s and 129 SB’s
N.Y. Mets 89-72, 172 HR’s and 138 SB’s
Tampa Bay Rays 97-65, 180 HR’s and 142 SB’s
Philadelphia Phillies 92-70, 214 HR’s and 136 SB’s
Milwaukee Brewers 90-72, 198 HR’s and 108 SB’s
N.Y. Yankees 89-75, 180 HR’s and 118 SB’s
Minnesota Twins 88-75, 111 HR’s and 102 SB’s
Houston Astros 86-75, 167 HR’s and 114 SB’s
Colorado Rockies 74-88, 160 HR’s and 141 SB’s. It should be noted that they played in the 2007 WS.
Ten out of eleven had winning records. All eleven breached the century mark in HR’s and Stolen bases and six made the playoffs.
It should also be noted that both the Cubs and White Sox were knocked out of the playoffs in the first round. both were top heavy in HR hitters and lacking in the base running department.
Teams that hit the HR and steal bases are going to be more successful than teams which rely solely on the HR (Earl Weaver is rolling in his grave). Pitching and defense go hand in hand, as does the the HR and SB.
Speed kills, the stolen base does not slump (especially in the playoffs), baseball is meant to be played in it’s TOTALITY. Class dismissed !
By It should NOT be noted
November 21, 2008 3:02 AM | Link to this
class dismissed?! What are you, Chris Tucker? That post largely meant nothing. None of those statistics were particularly relevant. What class are you teaching? That post was dumb enough the first time, Captain Obvious. I just got the crummy taste out of my mouth by reading nolie’s nice link (thanks, nol) and then I see a duplicate of the SAME crappy post…
What the eff is a ganster ninja?!
By Roll The Hole
November 21, 2008 3:02 AM | Link to this
Coochie poo
LOL. Posting it twice doesn’t make it any more right. You’re still an atavistic misanthropic baseball neanderthal
By GermanBravesFan
November 21, 2008 3:47 AM | Link to this
If the Braves want to make a splash this off-season, why not try to sign C.C. Sabathia? Pay him $20 mill per year, then add either Randy Johnson or Mike Hampton for $8 mill., trade K.J. for Ludwick and still have about $10 mill left (of which $4 mill could go to Ohman and the rest to either Smoltz or Glavine or both)… That way, the Braves keep Escobar and a bunch of other good young players!
By nolie
November 21, 2008 4:02 AM | Link to this
If the Braves want to make a splash this off-season, why not try to sign C.C. Sabathia? Pay him $20 mill per yearGerman
I’d love to see cc, si !,.. but It’s probably gonna take a good bit more than 2o mil per year to sign CC. plus he has a preference for the left coast which means it would really take top dollar to sign him for Atlanta. Wren has stated that they arepretty much not interested in pursuing him.
Personally I’m not so sure that i would trade KJ for Ludwick. Some questions whether he(Lud) would have nearly as good a year again.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 21, 2008 4:03 AM | Link to this
Which two teams are the fastest in the major leagues? and why does it spell doom for our Braves in 2009?
I’m not giving the answer to either question. The less than knowledgeable will have to figure it out for themselves.
O yea, I’m just getting started, it’s gonna be a long off season.
By nolie
November 21, 2008 4:24 AM | Link to this
Gee Coach, I see you are still craving that negative attention. That’s kinda sad IMO. Isn’t there some way that you can work on improving your self image? It likely would make you a happier person in the long run.
By GermanBravesFan
November 21, 2008 4:56 AM | Link to this
Nolie…
It would be worth a try to get C.C., though. Even at $22 mill per year, there would be some $$$ left to get another solid second starter (could Jurrjens be a #2 for the Braves next season?) such as Randy Johnson (one-year contract?) or even Mike Hampton… The Braves will have plenty of arms left for the number 4 and 5 slots.
As for an additional outfielder, I am still a big fan of Raul Ibanez. I wonder how much it would take to get him. Perhaps sign him to a 2-year deal with an option for a third year…
Under this scenario, the Braves won’t have to trade anyone…
I am not sure if Burnett would warrant a big contract given his history of injuries. Lowe would be good, but with Scott Boras being his agent, it would mean overpaying for him as well…
By nolie
November 21, 2008 5:08 AM | Link to this
It would be worth a try to get C.C., though. Even at $22 mill per year, there would be some $$$ left to get another solid second starter (could Jurrjens be a #2 for the Braves next season?German
yeah, many of us think the same thing, and it seems like paying Peavy 17-18 mil plus the cost of a replacement SS would about equal what they might sign CC for, but according to Dave and some other columns, they claim to not be interested in that approach. The Yanks offered 6 years for around 140 mil >. 23 mil per, and he has not accepted it, so it might end up going to 25 mil per. I’ve said all along that I do not expect them to sign any big name FAs. I think Wolf,Byrd Perez are more likely the level that they will sign. Hope I’m wrong. we’ll see
By GermanBravesFan
November 21, 2008 5:20 AM | Link to this
Nolie…
I guess it is one thing to offer a free agent a contract and another thing of him accepting it. I would like the Braves at least try and approach Sabathia. As you said, trading for Peavy will cost the Braves their starting short stop whom they will most likely replace by a free agent who will cost $$$. In addition to their starting short stop, the Braves will lose one of their young starting pitchers. I would have to lose Morton since he could probably be a good #5 next year (with Hanson #4)… I would not mind, however, losing Kelly Johnson if that yields the Braves a solid LF which Ryan Ludwick might be.
I am sorry, but Wolf, Perez and Byrd do not strike me as top-of-the-rotation pitchers. Perez might be a solid #3 but not more.
After a few years of mediocrity (and I am including the last two years where the Braves made the playoffs), it is time to create some excitement again!!!
By GermanBravesFan
November 21, 2008 5:27 AM | Link to this
sorry… I meant “I would hate to lose Morton”…
By BravesFanFirst
November 21, 2008 5:49 AM | Link to this
Coach Way To Hold Class!! You made complete sense and tied it to results on the field and in the playoffs! Bravo Sir! Some of us have been arguing for more speed on the Braves but you know how it goes when you go against the herd mentality of the blog.You know they will come back at you with some fancy high-minded stat and call you names.Once Again…Way To Kick Butt!!
BTW…The Peavy Trade As Reported Will Be A Disaster.Any time this many people are pushing hard for something and ignore potential downside, bet against what they’re telling you.
By ncscoots
November 21, 2008 6:16 AM | Link to this
nolie, I think I’ll have to change my screen name; your image of me was a little disturbing, LOL.
I can’t believe that scoots is 5’2” and couldn’t hit his way out of a wet paper bag.
Not hardly, my man. Think Grady Sizemore, but faster. :-) Juan Pierre couldn’t carry my shoes, LOL.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 21, 2008 6:33 AM | Link to this
Peavy anyone? lol ncscoots
By Efrim
November 21, 2008 6:41 AM | Link to this
Roman Gal
Efrim On the last blog you posted a Q&A with Kieth Law where he said that he thinks Tommy Hanson has Ace potential.
I’m really glad to finally see that, because so far everything still said that he had a #2 ceiling. Thanks for posting that. It’s good to hear.
No problem. To be honest, this is the first time I have seen it from one of the guys over at ESPN. Baseball Prospectus’ Kevin Goldstein said he had ace potential in his Top 11 prospects list. If you are looking at Baseball America, then yes, they will refer to him as whatever their scouting reports said the previous year. That’s the one thing that bothers me about BA. To me, if Hanson had mid rotation projection last season, then how in the world has he not moved to front line guy this season? His velocity has increased, and his slider has become another out pitch for him. The guy has ace potential, which, like you said, is really good to hear.
By JimD
November 21, 2008 6:42 AM | Link to this
OK, Coach, a little statistical analysis for you, and I will try to make this a little more brief than your post.
1). Herzog managed the Cardinals 81-89, and part of 90. Nine plus years. They finished first three times. Won the WS once. If I recall your correctly one of your criticisms about Bobby Cox, then I think Herzog qualifies as a loser of a manager because he only won 1 WS with the Cardinals. So I don’t know why you now hold him up as a paragon of success.
2). Your stats in the earlier post actually DISPROVE the point you are making.
From 81-89, the Cardinals stole 88, 200, 207, 220, 315, 262, 248, 234, and 155 bases. Of course the 88 SBs in 1981 were in the strike shortened year.
AND Their homerun totals for those yrs were 50,67,83, 75, 87, 58, 94, 71, 73.
BUT in your sampling above those successful teams you suggested stole for the most part half the number of bases as did the Cardinals in their Herzog days and those teams hit twice some times three times more homers.
It just goes to show. It’s a different game today than it was in the 1980’s. The parks are different, the players are different, the strike zone is different (or at least enforced differently).
And coincidentally (or not) in 1985 Herzog’s Cardinals had their highest SB total (315) and their 2nd highest HR total (87) and they finished … . THIRD.
Coach, I am not saying speed is bad. I would rather have a good total athlete that can motor, than a slow, cumbersome jughead. BUT, the point I am trying to make is that you cannot sell out to the SB in today’s game. It just doesn’t work anymore. It is PART of a good offense, and the Braves would be better with more of it, but it is not all that and a bag of chips.
By JimD
November 21, 2008 7:20 AM | Link to this
Sorry, that wasn’t brief at all. But one other interesting tidbit -
In 1985, Herzog’s Cardinals played his former team, the KC Royals in the World Series. As we all remember, the Royals won in 7 (game 6 was one for all times).
That year, the World Champion KC Royals stole a “mere” 128 bases and hit 154 HRs. They were 5th in MLB in SB, but with a little more than 1/2 of StL’s total.
And one more thing (last one, I promise) …
Mr Stolen Base Manager Herzog = .532 winning percentage
Mr Evil, Worse Manager Ever Needs to Be Fired is a Big Dummy Cox = .557 winning percentage.
Maybe the teacher needs to go back and work on his masters.
By Elmer
November 21, 2008 7:23 AM | Link to this
It’a hard to see why a “big dog” would come to the Braves given the strength of the Mets and Phils.
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 21, 2008 7:31 AM | Link to this
DOB,
They’ve announced they have been given the greenlight for the Arrested Development movie. I would prefer a new series on FX but I’ll take a movie. Best show ever - it stays on a perpetual loop in my bedroom DVD player.
“I’ve made a huge mistake.”
By Dadgum
November 21, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this
My Jackets put on a show for the nation last night!! To think Paul Johnson is doing this with inherited players in a new system is, well, coach of the year material. When Tech is good they’re great when they are bad they are Gailey-like.
Khalil Greene will NOT be playing for the Braves. Doubtful he could suit up for Clemson. Really.
Yes, the Braves would offer Furcal a multi-year at 10 mil per. If you get Peavy that is. Once they get their top dog and lose Escobar their next top priority will be a top-tier SS not pitcher. If Escobar stays and turns out to be the all-star caliber player we think he will be then he will command that kind of money in 2-3 years anyway. You can sleep comfortably knowing the Braves will spend a lot of money to get Furcal in my opinion.
Rock on…..The Good Word.
By kdbanks
November 21, 2008 8:54 AM | Link to this
DOB-
What are the chances the O’Flaherty makes the team as a starting SS, occasional backup C when McCann goes to first base, situational lefty and 4th starter? I really think he could make up the power gap in left too, given a shot.
By richbrave
November 21, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this
We have a team waiting. Still nothing to report I see.
By atown
November 21, 2008 9:06 AM | Link to this
DOB,
I am on a constant Cash jag. “Big River” is in my top 5 and seeing it here made my morning. Thanks and keep up the good work.
By GermanBravesFan
November 21, 2008 9:07 AM | Link to this
dkbanks… when was it decided that McCann will play first base??
Dadgum - if the Braves get Peavy and add Furcal at $10 mill per year, who will be the second starter the left fielder?
By brave nut
November 21, 2008 9:12 AM | Link to this
Forget PEAVY !!! Lets use our young guys !! Like Matt Ryan throw them in and let them compete. If you look at all the One run games we lost last year and you win half of those and you are 4 or 5 back of the world champs!! PHILY I mean .. If Francouer can get back to his old self maybe we are only 2 back!! I mean cmon getting Peavy does not win the world series for us !! So why trade our young talent!! Lets go with what we have now !!!
By GermanBravesFan
November 21, 2008 9:19 AM | Link to this
brave nut - I guess you are implying that the Braves should not trade any of their young guys. But how about spending some of those $40 million to land some proven pitchers and a left fielder?
By THE BEAR
November 21, 2008 9:26 AM | Link to this
Random wrote at 12:01 November 21, 2008 12:01 AM
*THE BEAR: “Wren made a couple of interesting statements… . About KJ. ‘Johnson is a natural shortstop who we changed to an outfielder and then brought back at second and he is improving dramatically with his play at that position.’ … Note: I am paraphrasing both but they are close to actual quotes.”
Wow!!! I’m surprised no one here has followed up on*
Look, if you are going to be spending your time on this board attacking a group of people chatting about baseball you should at least quote us correctly. Here is what I wrote:
Wren made a couple of interesting statements.
In response to a question about Escobar he said, “Escobar is our Shortstop”
About KJ. “Johnson is a natural shortstop who we changed to an outfielder and then brought back at second and he is improving dramatically with his play at that position.”
Note: I am paraphrasing both but they are close to actual quotes.
Those are the couple of things I wrote and you only included the latter one. In other words you took one statement out of context. As for my using the word “paraphrasing,” I did just that. I paraphrased both statements for one reason; I no longer had access to the actual quote and I was writing from memory. Had I not used the paraphrase comment I would have been remiss.
If you have any more of your crap to direct at me you can forget it. I will not honor anything else you say with a reply. Frankly, uou aren’t worth the effort.
By Thundersticks
November 21, 2008 9:40 AM | Link to this
brave nut & GermanBravesFan - I agree. I would make a hard push for CC, trade for Maggs (Flowers & Boyer/Soriano), sign Ohman, Glavine/Hampton, Smoltz, and the bench guys and let’s go!!!
Lineup:
Schafer Escobar Chipper Maggs McCann Frenchy Kotchman Johson
Rotation:
CC Jurrjens Hampton or Glavine (Huddy’s spot) Reyes/Morton/Parr/Byrd (maybe) Hanson
Bullpen:
Soriano/Moylan/Smoltz Gonzalez Boyer (unless he’s traded) Ohman Acosta Campillo (long relief & spot starter)
Am I being unrealistic? I understand CC wants to go to the west coast. I would also be concerned with going 6 - 8 years on a SP, but what about going 4 years at $30 mil per year? OR if we go with a long term contract, how about a mutual opt-out clause in the middle? (ie 7 year deal where either the player or the team could opt-out after year 4)
By Bravedawg
November 21, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this
DOB
“I’m sure glad you’re not comparing Dunn to Howard, since Howard has a .279 career average and has averaged 144 RBI the past three seasons, while Dunn has a .247 career average (lower each the past three seasons) and has averaged just below 100 RBI the past three seasons.”
DOB—I’m sure glad you’re not being exTREMELY condescending, while using some pretty unreliable stats like RBI (extremely dependent on the talent around you—you can’t knock ‘em in if they’re not gettin’ on base) or batting average (which doesn’t take into account BB). Because if you look at their park-adjusted OPS over the last 3 years, they’re exactly the same—.790.
By Bravedawg
November 21, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this
And let me clarify—I’m not saying Dunn is as good as Howard; he’s not. But they’re not as far apart as many would think, because people still actually look at batting average when evaluating a player. Oh, and DOB…do you have to be so condescending sometimes? Geez.
By GermanBravesFan
November 21, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this
Thundersticks: whom would you trade to Detroit for Ordoñez? I am sure the Tigers will want at least Escobar for him since they need a shortstop. How about Ibañez?
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 21, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this
Wren: We see [Flowers] as a quality young power hitter and developing as a solid catcher. A lot of things can happen between now and when he arrives in the big leagues.
Ayeee!! What’s that supposed to mean??
By Thundersticks
November 21, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this
GermanBravesFan:
brave nut & GermanBravesFan - I agree. I would make a hard push for CC, trade for Maggs (Flowers & Boyer/Soriano), sign Ohman, Glavine/Hampton, Smoltz, and the bench guys and let’s go!!!
I forgot they need a SS. I might offer Flowers, Lillibridge & Boyer.
By Lee in S GA
November 21, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
if the Braves get Peavy and add Furcal at $10 mill per year, who will be the second starter the left fielder?
My thoughts exactly. It on’t be any “big dogs” for sure. The money will be getting to scarce.
By GermanBravesFan
November 21, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this
Thundersticks: if Lillibridge was good enough to play shortstop for the Tigers, I am sure he would be good enough to play for the Braves and Escobar could be traded without the need to sign a free agent for that position.
On the other hand, the Tigers do need a catcher. However, is Flowers ready to play right away?
Plus, the Tigers now know that the Braves are willing to part with Escobar if they can get a good enough player in return, so why wouldn’t they ask for Escobar then?
By Lew
November 21, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this
Scoots-Now I know this is cheating a bit since I know your real name, but I always thought Scoots was just a play on your name/National origin.
Atavistic Misanthropic Baseball Neanderthal-That is almost Wurlitzer worthy-no matter who it refers to.
By ugacpa02
November 21, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this
One thing Wren’s comment on Flowers means is that he isn’t going to be in Atlanta next year. He’s likely double A unless he explodes again in spring training. Thus in the year to two years until he’s scheduled to be a major league player anything could happen. He could disover a second position, get traded, get injured, develop a bad habit, take over for an injured McCann, anything.
By Rick Long
November 21, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this
Why do I get the sinking feeling that all of this talk about finally having money to spend and being aggressive in signing two quality starters and a power hitting outfielder is going to fizzle into a whole bunch of nothing. I don’t know exactly who the Padres were asking for Peavy (and Wren will not and should not disclose that for obvious reasons. I also understand not including Hanson or Heyward in any proposed deal.
Having said all of that, for a team in dire need of rebuilding its rotation, there aren’t a lot of 27 year old TRUE aces like Peavy (I believe he is as good as the only really good, but unaffordable for the Braves, free agent starter, Sabathia). If there is still any chance of getting this done, Wren needs to explore it, particularly since it looks more and more like the only other two remaining free agents even worthy (but no more) of consideration, Lowe and Burnett are going elsewhere.
Another bad sign is the article in MLB.com about how Garland, Wolf and O. Perez (did Frank forget that other “stud”, Kyle Lohse?) could be “profitable gambles” for Atlanta. If this is what this all comes down to, I say spend the money on some legimitate position players rather than waste it by overpaying for these guys.
By Thundersticks
November 21, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this
GermanBravesFan: Of course they could ask, but I don’t envision Wren trading Escobar for a bat - only for an ace SP. It could happen, but I don’t think it would.
I agree Lillibridge is not ready. Maybe they trade Maggs’ then they would have the $$$ to sign a SS.
I think Flowers is very close. Close enough to make the deal.
By the way, referencing your previous post, Ibanez is over-rated and old (in baseball years).
By Lew
November 21, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this
Elmer-I think it’s quite reasonable to expect a “Big Dog” to want to come to Atlanta. Anyone with half a baseball brain is aware that the Braves problems the past few years (in 08 especially) revolve around not having the necessary pitching due to injury and lack of available salary to acquire who we needed. They would also be quite aware that the Braves have one of the best, most productive Farm Systems in all of baseball (continually).
Given that any “Big Dog” major league pitcher would almost necessarily have an ego just as large, they would likely be convinced that THEY were the missing piece to lead us back to success. What you and others don’t seem to realize ( but a “Big Dog” would) is that the Braves aren’t that far away-really just a couple pieces and a return to normalcy for a couple players-from winning again.
So many seem to think that the Phillies and Mets are worlds above us in talent level, assured of taking the division before a game has been played and it just isn’t so. The Mets still have numerous holes of their own to fill. Their rotation is not close to being set and their bullpen has sucked out loud for two years. Their 2B situation is still up in the air as well-possibly a couple other positions as well.
As for the Phillies-Is Moyer coming back at the same level at age 46? Is the rest of their rotation something we all need to fear? Is it even a vague possibility that Brad Lidge has another perfect season? How about losing their All Star 2b for the better part of to all of the season? How about replacing Burrell?
As anyone who has some baseball knowledge can see, the results of the 09 season have yet to be written. Y’all may want to hang it up as being an impossible situation, but then again, I suppose that doesn’t surprise me. It’s a typical party line for many Denizens.
By nolie
November 21, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this
Yes, the Braves would offer Furcal a multi-year at 10 mil peDadgum
They might offer it, but he has already been offered 3 years at 13 mil per, so he likely wouldn’t accept it. He wants 4 years, which I doubt he will get, but there are some pretty desperate GMs out there so one never knows Besides I personally think the Peavy deal is over. Hope not.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 21, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this
ugacpa02 …take over for an injured McCann, anything.
Yeah…that’s what I’m afraid of.
NOT meaning I’m afraid of Flowers doing to McCann what McCann did to Estrada…Just afraid of Mac getting injured.
By Patrick
November 21, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this
DOB,
I’ve been hearing rumors latley that the Braves were interested in and still are interested in Nick Swisher. Do you think the Braves could have pulled off a trade for him if there weren’t dealing with the Peavy negotiations??
By Lew
November 21, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this
My mistake-Utley won’t miss the entire (or most of the) season-just a month or two. Nonetheless…..
By ncscoots
November 21, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
Lew, partly correct at 10:16, I guess, though I don’t know if I would gotten the same nickname if I had, say, McCann-like speed, LOL. Of course, his recent SB percentage is better than mine ever was. HA!
And, you’re right, you don’t get “Atavistic Misanthropic Baseball Neanderthal” on just any blog. Take that, Buster Olney!
By Thundersticks
November 21, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
Lew:
I couldn’t agree more. Sure the Braves have some work to do, but if they can make the moves Wren is talking about, I believe they will be in the playoff hunt next September. I’m not predicting they are going to win the WS, or even make the playoffs, but they won’t be out of it come July 31.
I would only do the Peavy trade if we can sign Furcal to replace Escobar. If Furcal signs somewhere else before the deal gets done, they I wouldn’t do it unless we can substitute KJ for Escobar.
By GermanBravesFan
November 21, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this
Rick Long: The Braves are not including Hanson in the Peavy deal because Hanson might be a top-of-the-rotation-starter in a couple of years! He should be able to make the rotation next season (#5 starter?) and be a very inexpensive solid starter!
Tundersticks: I don’t think Ibañez is overrated. He has been solid over the past few years and he can still hit. I don’t know what type of contract he is looking for, but why not sign him to a two-year deal? Defensively, he could be backed up by one of the young outfielders the Braves have (or by Matt Diaz).
It would be interesting to know what Ryan Ludwick’s contract situation is. Maybe DOB can help out with that one… If Ludwick is not arbitration-eligible yet, it would be a good idea to trade Kelly Johnson for him (and have Infante or Prado take over at second base). However, it is obvious that the Braves want to wait and see if the Padres will come back to the table to discuss Peavy. If Escobar gets traded, KJ will stay…
By Efrim
November 21, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this
The offseason is but 3 weeks old and there are people declaring all is lost for 2009? Lets wait until Christmas. I’m not saying the Braves will be favored or even in the same sentence with the Phillies or Mets, but you need to let things play out a bit here. Let’s see if Frank Wren can make some moves. We have a while until opening day. Heck, we have 17 days until the Winter meetings.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 21, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this
JimD, you should have never brought up Bobby Cox. That my friend was a mistake.
Cox has worst postseason record in MLB history. Bar none. He has lost more games in the postseason than any other manager. He has won the WS once and lost it four times including the back to back 1991-1992 WS. Cox has taken fifteen teams into the postseason, which is commendable and managed to get right just once, which is disgraceful.
For the record, Cox has fifteen teams in the postseason and one WS. Whitey Herzog has three postseason teams and one WS. One of those records is acceptable. Care to guess which one?
By Shaun
November 21, 2008 11:05 AM | Link to this
You are again not understanding the runners on base compared to runs batted in. Howard drives in ~ 30 % of runners on, Dunn only ~ 24.5 % of runners on.
BBFan, so you are saying there was only about a 5.5 percent difference in the rate at which they drove runners in? You would think the second-most valuable player in the league would drive in runner on base at a much higher rate than Adam Dunn…unless of course he wasn’t really the second-most valuable player in the league.
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this
K.D. Banks, I think you make a good point about O’Flaherty. Good pedigree, obviously.
By GeorgetownKid
November 21, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this
Coach
By your inane logic, I am a more savy investor than Warren Buffett because he has lost more money than me in the stock market. Of course, what your unimpressive mind probably can’t quite grasp, is that Warren Buffett has also MADE a little bit more money than me in the stock market.
Saying that Bobby Cox has the “worst postseason record in MLB history” on the sole basis of the number of his losses is akin to saying that the South won the Civil War, because the North lost more soldiers.
I can try to email you some pictures, or perhaps mail you a popup book if that would help you understand.
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this
ugacap02: You didn’t really think Flowers had a shot at making the team out of spring training, did you? Dude hasn’t played above A-ball.
Last Braves player I can recall jumping from A-ball to the bigs was Rafael Furcal nearly a decade ago, and that was after he’d batted .322 with a minors-leading 95 stolen bases and 105 runs scored in 1999, and the Braves needed him as a shortstop and leadoff man.
Braves don’t need a catcher, and aren’t going to have Flowers sitting on the bench, catching once a week. He’s a solid catching prospect who needs to keep developing while working with a pitching staff, making more of the kind of strides he made last year.
By TommyP
November 21, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this
I think so many are so enthralled with the idea of landing an “ace” at all costs that we’re mortgaging too much of the future to get that “ace.”
First off, what is an “ace” to everyone? I think opinions vary on that one.
For many, it’s a guy that is a top-notch pitcher in the league that is able to dominate on any given night.
So how many are out there?
For others, an “ace” might be a good to very good pitcher that is durable and able to give you a chance to win most times. A guy that goes deep into games more often than not.
We’d all love the first definition but it’s more realistic to get the latter.
Look at last year’s playoff teams.
In Boston, would Beckett be the ace? He’s had one great season there out of 3. Or is it now Lester?
In Tampa, is it Kazmir? No way.
What about Anaheim? Lackey perhaps? Not sure he’s the definition of “ace” to everyone or not.
The ChiSox have Buerhle as their option as ace but man when I look at the number of hits allowed, I think he’s more of a #2.
Those are your AL playoff teams from last year. Which team has the bonafide “ace”?
The NL had Hamels, Zambrano or CC, Hamels and Lowe.
I’ll give you Milwaukee had an ace but only after dealing for CC (Sheets is too unreliable in health to be considered an “ace”, in my opinion). They were in the thick of things before CC.
Chicago definitely has one in Zambrano.
Hamels just evolved into Philly’s ace this year but what do they have after him?
Lowe? I’ve never thought of him as an “ace” but he is a solid, reliable starter that you can depend on.
I think it’s essential that you need a deep pitching staff more so than you need an “ace” to make the playoffs.
Dealing so much of your future (especially when it’s players as talented as the ones being mentioned as part of the deal for the Braves) for ONE GUY that comes with added risks is just not the way to build this team.
Is anyone else out there in agreement? Build a solid, deep rotation instead of selling out for a top-heavy rotation but creating additional holes now and in the future?
By Elmer
November 21, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this
Lew, I hope you are right,but I fear that the GM and Cox will settle for Smoltz, Hampton and a rookie.
By GermanBravesFan
November 21, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this
DOB: With McCann signed for a few more years, do you think the Braves might consider trading him?
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this
Bravedawg, at the risk of being condescending, am I to assume that since Adam Dunn and Ryan Howard have the same park-adjusted OPS totals (I’ll trust you that they are the same, as you wrote), that you believe Dunn is very comparable player to Howard?
If so, let’s just say we agree to disagree.
And also, I’d point out that Dunn plays in the most hitter-friendly home ballpark in the majors, even more hitter-friendly than Philly.
Dunn has a .251 career average with 150 home runs and a .540 slugging percentage at home, and a .242 average with 128 homers and a .497 slugging percentage on the road.
Howard has a .278 average with 90 homers and a .601 slugging percentage in home games, and a .280 average with 87 homers and .580 slugging percentage on the road.
Howard has slugged 40 points higher on the road than Dunn has slugged in Cincinnati, and 24 points higher than Dunn has slugged at home since the Reds moved into their new home affectionately known as Great American Small Park.
Dunn has a .556 career slugging percentage in that bandbox. Howard, for what it’s worth, has six homers and a .723 slugging percentage in 14 games (47 at-bats) at Cincy’s current ballpark.
By Steve from OH
November 21, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this
For the record, Cox has fifteen teams in the postseason and one WS. Whitey Herzog has three postseason teams and one WS. One of those records is acceptable. Care to guess which one?
You seriously think three postseasons out of nine is better than 14 out of 17? Seriously? Cox’s postseason % with the Braves is 82%. Herzog’s, with the Cards, was 33%. Think about that. And Cox is the donkey? Did you ever stop to think that the reason Cox has lost more postseason games than any other manager is because he’s actually been there more than any a vast majority of other managers? Or that he had to face the roided up Yankees teams in ‘96 and ‘99? Or how he got screwed by bad umpiring in ‘97? Or how the ‘91 series was snatched away by Jack Freaking Morris’ flukey game? Come on, man, I don’t know what Cox did to you, if he didn’t sign an autograph for you or whatever, but there really isn’t any reason to hate him as much as you do. You’re just making up crap to support your blatantly wrong theory. And I know if our roles were reversed, you’d say something like “they both won only one WS. Bottom line. End of story,” or whatever, so I’ll say it to you, since you seem to be a very results-based kinda guy. They each won one WS. Cox has been better in the seasons in which he didn’t win a WS. So, logically, Herzog is better, right?
Did you ever stop to think why Herzog’s teams only went to three postseasons during his tenure in St. Louis? Because he put too much emphasis on [pansy]-footing around the bases and not enough on getting on base and slugging.
During the 1982 season, in which the Cards won the WS, they were 1st in the NL in OBP. They were 5th in OPS+. In 1984, they finished 12.5 games back and were tied for seventh (with three other teams) with a .317 OBP. But they sure stole a lot of bases. They were 7th in OPS+, 3% below the league average. In 1985 they won the NL and guess what? They were 1st in OBP and a close second (by 1%) in OPS+. In ‘86, they finished 28.5 games back and were DEAD LAST in OBP. But they lead the league in stolen bases! Herzog is a god! (they were also dead last in OPS+). In 1987, they again won the NL and, amazingly, improbably, they were again 1st in OBP. In ‘88, they finished 25 games back and were, not surprisingly, 7th in OBP and second to last in OPS+. Noticing any trends here? Sure, speed kills, its sure killing me right now. I’m in stitches.
I don’t know if you think you are extra smart by playing monday morning quarterback on all this stuff or what, but man, I don’t think you can be any more wrong about Cox.
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
Bravedawg, one other stat: Dunn has a .225 career average and .474 slugging percentage with runners in scoring position, compared to Howard’s .282 average and .582 slugging in those situations.
By Efrim
November 21, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this
TommyP
Is anyone else out there in agreement? Build a solid, deep rotation instead of selling out for a top-heavy rotation but creating additional holes now and in the future?
I think that is Frank Wren’s goal man. They deal Escobar, Gorkys Hernandez, Charlie Morton and Blaine Boyer for Jake Peavy and they have a heck of a starting staff in 2010:
Peavy, Hudson, Jurrjens, free agent, Hanson
Now there are some questions there. How Hudson comes back from Tommy John? How Hanson does out of the gate? Who is that other free agent starter we pick up?
As far as 2009 goes, even with Peavy, that second starter they pick up would have to be pretty damn good to create an above average pitching staff.
But you understand where Frank Wren is going with this, right?
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this
GermanBravesFan: I can’t see it, at least not in the forseeable future. McCann’s one of the best young players in baseball, a three-time All-Star and two-time Silver Slugger in his three full seasons in the majors, signed to a club-friendly long-term contract.
Might be the single most unlikely guy they would trade on the current 40-man roster.
All that being said, things can and often do change from one year to the next in baseball. But right now, that’s how I see the McCann situation. Check again this time next year.
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
atown, you’re welcome. And I’m with you, regarding the constant Cash jag.
By flange1
November 21, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this
Morning All,
TommyP might have a point. We fans might be getting too worked up over the “top tier” FA pitchers and might be missing an opportunity to really look into other options that could solve the same problem.
In my mind one of the major keys to what the Braves will do this off season is their stance on Tim Hudson. IF they want him back after 2010, he can and could be the “ace” the team needs for the next few years.
If that is the case, should the Braves consider signing Randy johnson to a 1 year deal to fill the gap until August when Huddy could be back?
Then for a second starter, look for a good young arm like Ian Snell?
Resign Hampton and you have a nice rotation for 2009, you have not overspent in dollars or years for pitchers, and you project a 2010 rotation of Hudson, JJJ, Snell, Hanson and a number 5 guy.
That would give you more money to spend on an outfield bat or and outfield bat and a SS or 2B if one of those guys is traded.
The Braves and the Pirates almost hooked up on Jason Bay, so the Pirates know the Braves farm system and obviously like some of the players.
Thoughts?
By Steve from OH
November 21, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this
Scoots, sounds like you were the polar opposite of me as a player, lol. I was a leadfooted P/3B. My teammates, on the other hand, could probably have beat most of our county’s track teams in any kind of race, but I liked to think I won more games for us on the hill than they did on the basepaths :)
After all, they could steal second and third, but I (and our leadfooted pitcher) still had to knock ‘em in.
By flange1
November 21, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this
And to add to my last post, you don’t have to spend all of your money before the season starts. You could hold your dollars and see if anything special comes up in spring training or during the season.
For example (again only example NOT saying this were to happen) the Tigers decide mid year that they will have to slash payroll and look to dump Mags for a prospect. Mainly looking for immediate salary relief. We ship them a prospect and pay his big salary.
By Nate
November 21, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this
There’s a bit of difference in how you would build your rotation for the long regular season versus the post season.
During the regular season you want a deep rotation. You can’t ignore the back end because those guys are making 40 percent of your starts, and you don’t want to overuse your bullpen.
But in the post season teams only rely on three starting pitchers usually. The #4and #5 guys become irrelevant. Sometime they aren’t even on the post season roster. With the post season in mind it seems stupid to waste money on the back end of the rotation.
Teams approach this dilemma differently, with varying degree of success.
One thing is for sure, and that is the fact that right now the Brave’s rotation in neither deep nor top heavy.
By Bravedawg
November 21, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this
DOB
Again, as I stated above—I’m not saying that Dunn is as good as Howard. He’s clearly not. He’s just not NEAR as bad as many people assert. Sure, if you just look at batting average and RBIs, they’re not in the same ballpark (sorry for the pun). But it’s not that simple.
By Shaun
November 21, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this
DOB, clearly Howard has had the better career. In 2008, though, Dunn and Howard weren’t much different.
By Efrim
November 21, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this
Flange1
The Braves and the Pirates almost hooked up on Jason Bay, so the Pirates know the Braves farm system and obviously like some of the players.
And looking at the current corner OF market, I now know why they went after Bay at the deadline even though they had already traded Mark Teixeira. Bay would of been perfect for this team. If the Braves were offering Lillibridge, Brandon Jones, Jeff Locke and another postional player prospect, I guess I can see why they took the package in that three team deal. Although Brandon Moss and Craig Hansen don’t look too great and Andy Laroche’s major league career hasn’t resembled his minor league stats. The Morris kid looks like he has a good arm though.
By Anders
November 21, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this
Lew
So many seem to think that the Phillies and Mets are worlds above us in talent level, assured of taking the division before a game has been played and it just isn’t so. The Mets still have numerous holes of their own to fill. Their rotation is not close to being set and their bullpen has sucked out loud for two years. Their 2B situation is still up in the air as well-possibly a couple other positions as well.
You really need to stop comparing the Braves voids to the Mets. They are worlds apart. The Mets are losing Oliver Perez (possibly) from their rotation and he will either be resigned or replaced with value. They’re bringing back Santana, Maine and Pelfrey. Their 5th spot was filled by various guys last year and at worst will be again this year. Pedro was a shell of himself so losing him is insignificant, except for the $’s he allows them to spend on others. The Mets will sign or trade for a stopper and decent starting pitcher -bank on it. They bandaided second base for the whole season last year. They did the same in right and catcher. If it happens again - so what? That was not their problem last year. And yes their bullpen sucked,and they will replace Wagner with one of the top 3 or 4 guys available which should be equal, unless you’re now changing your tune on Wagner who you repeatedly told me sucked?
Yet with all this,the Mets finished well ahead of the Braves for the second straight year . All things equal how can you really think the Braves will close enough ground to be taken as a serious division title contender? If anything they may lose some ground without Tex and Hudson even for half the season. If they replace Hudson with Peavy then you lose Escobar. Same Church different pew.
Sorry Big Fella but your logic is wrong on this one.
By GeorgetownKid
November 21, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this
Steve
I think Coach intentionally posts outlandishly stupid things just to entice people to respond to him.
Either that, or he is a complete moron.
By gogobraves
November 21, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this
no because if they dont have a power hitting outfielder by midseason they would not be in the playoff race and why trade for an expensive outfielder who is 35 years old when you are already out of it. i like the idea of getting a young pitcher like snell or my favorite would be somehow pull of a trade for phil hughes and i would still get the peavy deal done. 2010 roAtation of peavy hudson jj hanson hughes would be awesome.
By Efrim
November 21, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this
gogobraves
How do you expect to get Hughes from the Yankees?
By DAP
November 21, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this
not that the small park in cincy wouldnt help dunn’s slug%, but ive never seen him barely hit one out there. no stats to back it up, but when he hits it out, its seems like it would be out no matter where he was.
howard has many that barely go out that ive seen. of course, they are oppo field so he still has superhuman power.
By Lew
November 21, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this
Flange-Thanks for talking reason, Dude. That’s what I’ve been trying to tell the Denizens-It might not be the top tier guys we see on the horizon. Last year I would seriously doubt that Jurrjens was on anyone’s radar (except the Braves’ front office) and look how that went. I’m certain that there’s other similar deals out there to be had.
Elmer-If that’s what you truly believe, despite Wren’s constant reassurances to the contrary that they are not even factoring Smoltz, Glavine or Hampton into their plans, then I doubt there’s anything I or any other sane blogger can say to convince you otherwise. You’re wrong, but you’ll never believe it until it’s a fait accomplis.
Also, with Wren’s comments on Yunel being our shortstop and saying our infield is set, I’m finding it hard to believe Yunel was even part of the Peavy deal, or will be supposing it even gets done. It also makes me think that maybe the KJ for Ludwick deal was in the minds of the Cards, only.
By Shaun
November 21, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this
Sure, if you just look at batting average and RBIs, they’re not in the same ballpark (sorry for the pun). But it’s not that simple.
Amen, Bravedawg. But you’ll have a hard time convincing some on here that it’s not that simple.
By DAP
November 21, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this
I think Coach intentionally posts outlandishly stupid things just to entice people to respond to him.
Either that, or he is a complete moron.
i wouldnt say those two are mutually exclusive.
guys, i wanted to ask ya’ll what you think…if the braves were going to sign either abreu or ibanez, which one would you prefer? first based just on thier ability, dont make money an object, then if your opinion would change based on contract tell that to.
im just curious to see what you guys think. maybe you too, DOB, if you have time?
By Lew
November 21, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this
Anders-Quit being a pompous @$$ Dude. No one compared anything or anyone to your beloved Non-Achievers. All I said (damn, I wish you actually read what was posted) was that the Phillies and Mets both had holes to fill as well, and that it was foolish to hand them a Division Title (something the Mets have a noticable lack of in case you didn’t notice) before the lineups are even set, much less a game has been played.
Also Dude, maybe you could point out where I was in error regarding the Mets’ or Phillies’ needs. Did I perhaps miss something else they might have need of?
By Efrim
November 21, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this
Lew
Also, with Wren’s comments on Yunel being our shortstop and saying our infield is set, I’m finding it hard to believe Yunel was even part of the Peavy deal, or will be supposing it even gets done. It also makes me think that maybe the KJ for Ludwick deal was in the minds of the Cards, only.
I guess you might be right, but like 18 different reports of Yunel being involved came out when the Peavy to the Braves talk was on. I think Frank Wren said that Yunel is our SS because the Peavy talks are over with. Or at least they are right now. My guess is if they start up again, Yunel will be back on the table. And if he isn’t, than Kelly Johnson will be……..and if he isn’t, well, then we are probably looking at a large prospect package of guys not named Hanson or Heyward(which I am totally against doing, and I am pretty sure the Braves are too).
By Lew
November 21, 2008 12:23 PM | Link to this
Anders-One more thing Oh Misinformed One-maybe the Mets WILL sign a closer and fill the two rotational holes. However, I haven’t seen them pull off any deals yet. Have you? I’m thrilled you have three rotation spots filled. One apparently is certain, but wasn’t Maine hurt and ineffective at the end of the season? Also-Pelfrey has had ONE moderately successful ML season. I would imagine that to anyone but you or a Mets’ fan that he’s still a question mark. As for filling in the fifth spot-that worked, didn’t it? It worked helping you tank yet again, but not much else. Talk to me when your holes have been filled. Until then, the Mets are every bit as much a work in progress as the Braves are.
By Anders
November 21, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this
Efrim
How do you expect to get Hughes from the Yankees?
How about that package the Braves are offering for Peavy with one more good prospect to the Yankees for Hughes, Cano and Cabrera?
I haven’t vetted it but something along those lines. The Braves move KJ to short (thought I read on here that’s his natural position) put Cano at second (as good or better than Escobar offensively today) and use Cabrera as a stop gap in CF.
Wallah! Of course you are now committing to pitching staff that is at least a couple of years away from being MLB tested and this fly’s in the face of keeping Chipper around, which is why I said trade him….. anyway, just spitballing here on get away day.
By Efrim
November 21, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this
DAP
Abreu if we aren’t talking money.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 21, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this
JimD,
Nice smackdown of Coach. He’s come around a little on the value of OBP but he’s still an unrepentant speed freak. And I don’t mean that in a good way.
By flange1
November 21, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this
Lew,
On Yunel, my perspective is that FW said the infield is set is basically his way of not saying anything at all. I think Yunel was the centerpiece to the Peavy deal and that since that deal is now “dead”, Yunel is the guy.
It would not benefit the Braves to say KJ and Yunel are on the block, or at least that is not the Braves way of doing things.
Anders,
You, as usual, failed to read Lew’s post. All he said was the Mets and Phillies have holes too so don’t give the division away.
Didn’t see anything in his post that compared the Braves holes to the Mets holes..
By Efrim
November 21, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this
Anders
Haha, I’m all cool with trading for Robinson. I like Hughes a lot, but again, I’m pretty sure the Yankees aren’t trading him. Kelly Johnson at SS? No thanks. Average defensive second baseman don’t make average defensive shortstops.
By Anders
November 21, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this
Lew
Why so angry? Here’s what you wrote:
So many seem to think that the Phillies and Mets are worlds above us in talent level, assured of taking the division before a game has been played and it just isn’t so.
Are you not saying that others are wrong to think the Mets and Phillies are worlds above the Braves ( I assume that’s who you meant by us)? I would take that as a comparison by you. That’s what I responded to. That’s all.
Maybe you should take a minute to read what you write?
BTW- What would you call a team that finishes 17 games behind the “non-achievers”?
By nolie
November 21, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this
I know your real name, but I always thought Scoots was just a play on your name/National origin.Lew
Ok, so now I’m picturing a guy with a Scottish accent running to the bathroom- but at least he has a kilt on, which makes it a bit easier when in a big hurry. . Ok. I better quit before I get conked by a caber or cleft by a claymore. ;-)
By A FAN
November 21, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this
well we might get a steal outta hampton. his agent said this
ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick spoke to Mike Hampton’s agent Mark Rodgers, who said, “We’re looking for a straight one-year deal - no option, no nothing.” Hampton obviously just wants to re-establish himself as a healthy, useful starting pitcher after so many lost seasons. It’s unclear whether Rodgers’ statement means Hampton will avoid incentive-based offers.
soo even if he is terrible we only would deal with it for only a year!!!
By DAP
November 21, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this
efrim i thinik id agree with you if we werent talking money. the only thing is that abreu is a butcher in the outfield. hes even worse than ibanez. i just read a baseball think factory article that had abreu as the worst outfielder in the AL. yikes.
plus, (ill talk about money now) abreu will probably get paid more, maybe alot more, and will want a longer contract.
i think we could get ibanez for 2 years $16mil, maybe with an option for a third year. that way, we have a nice bridge to heyward or whoever is coming down the pike.
abreu and ibanez are actually pretty similar players, so considering everything, id go for the one who will require the shorter, cheaper contract.
By Lew
November 21, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this
Anders-Wallah? Dude, that’s Voila. Do you know ANYTHING? Doubtful if you think Kelly Johnson will be moved to shortstop. You might check his fielding stats at that position in the minors-like the 20 something errors at Myrtle Beach or the 45 errors at Macon. You might then realize that there was a reason he was moved from his “natural position”.
Efrim-Sorry Dude, but Wren has never confirmed any of the players proposed in the Peavy deal. I refuse to accept others’ rumors as proof-even Buster Olney, who lives down the street from me in Vermont and whose opinion I respect. Maybe Yunel WAS offered and maybe not. We won’t know for sure until a deal is done-IF it is.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 21, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this
Steve, you sir, are a God Damned fool. And I’m talking complete freaking IDIOT. Don’t ever talk to me again. Just go F** yourself , OK ? Thank you.
By DAP
November 21, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this
So many seem to think that the Phillies and Mets are worlds above us in talent level, assured of taking the division before a game has been played and it just isn’t so.
anders disagrees with this…so you think the division should be handed to one of these teams without playing the games? thats what i get out of it.
What would you call a team that finishes 17 games behind the “non-achievers”?
if you are refeering to the braves, they finsihed about where they should have based on thier season. weather or not you “achieve” is based on expectations.
By TennesseePaul
November 21, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this
I had to look…
Dunn OPS+: 130
Ryan OPS+: 143
That isn’t the same. Howard is still much better than Dunn.
By Efrim
November 21, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this
DAP
I think if the Braves want right handed power, or a hitter able of hitting for power against left handed pitching, than neither guy is one that we should covet. Ibanez career SLG vs. lefties is .411. Abreu has a career .404 SLG vs. lefties.
By Anders
November 21, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this
flange 1
So many seem to think that the Phillies and Mets are worlds above us in talent level, assured of taking the division before a game has been played and it just isn’t so.
Read the line above. Now you tell me how that doesn’t read as a comparison of talent on the Mets and Phillies to the Braves. If Lew had written ” Just because the Mets and Phillies have talent worlds above us etc. etc. that would be different.
Stop the nonsense of saying I don’t know what I’m reading. If that’s not what he meant and wrote it wrong - fine. He should admit it and we’d move on. But let’s not put this on my supposed incorrect interpretation of the written word.
Lew If Wren could have Maine and/or Pelfrey tonight he’d take them in a heartbeat so cut the crap. If he had both he’d call off the Peavy watch too and spend the money on one of their other needs.
Until then, the Mets are every bit as much a work in progress as the Braves are.
That’s a foolish line that no serious Braves fan on here would agree too. You’re showing your homerism again.
By TommyP (Coach will be missed)
November 21, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this
And with that, Coach, you should be gone from the blog.
No need for that kind of ridiculous language.
By Lew
November 21, 2008 12:57 PM | Link to this
Anders-Not angry, just tired of your constant barrage of bovine excrement (BS since you are seemingly And Idiot). Until the rosters for all teams are finalized, an occurrence somewhere down the road from now, then there is no comparing anything or anyone. Two days ago, the Phillies were thinking Utley would be in the opening day lineup. How did that go? Think it might make a difference to their performance?
Dude, you’re the one constantly comparing the Mets to the Braves. You’re the one telling us how far ahead of us the Mets have placed the last three years, despite the fact that the Mets, with possibly the majors’ best team in 06, tanked to the Cards, the worst playoff team in either league. Then you squandered your huge division leads two consecutive seasons. I guess, in the long run, all you have is a pitiful comparison to the Braves’ finish to make the Mets look good. Honestly, had not someone made the comment saying how much better the Phillies and Mets were than the Braves, I never would have brought them up.
Besides, had you actually read the posts in recent weeks (I’m assuming you CAN read, though I’m doubtful of your comprehensive abilities in that regard), you’d have seen that I’m not considering the Braves will win the Divsion this year, but will contend in 2010 when we get Hudson back and some of our kids are a year closer and more experienced.
By Efrim
November 21, 2008 12:57 PM | Link to this
Lew
I refuse to accept others’ rumors as proof
Well, if that is the case, than there is no point to talk about any of this stuff. Rarely, if ever, do you see any GM’s actually admit a player is involved until it actually happens.
By Fred
November 21, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this
Anders, That hypothetical Braves/Yankees trade wouldn’t work for several reasons. First, the braves have 3 young guys (Anderson, Blanco, Schafer) to compete for the CF job. One of those 3 should be relatively successful next year. Plus, Cabrera was so bad this year they sent him to the minors. Second, we already have 2 second basemen capable of starting (Prado and KJ) and it would make no sense to trade for Cano, who had an off year. Third, the braves are in the market for 2 established major league starting pitchers. Hughes has potential but hasn’t realized it yet in the majors. We already have a couple of guys in that category (i. e. Morton, Reyes), although Hughes is considered a better prospect than those 2 pitchers. We also have Tommy Hanson close to major league ready.
By Anders
November 21, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this
Lew
Anders-Wallah? Dude, that’s Voila.
Got me there. You were right, I was wrong. See how easy that is? Give it a shot sometime.
As for KJ to short. As I said, hadn’t vetted any of it and was spit balling. Hey maybe the Yanks would take KJ in place of Escobar? You’d have to up the prospects though.
Think about it Escobar and Cano up the middle. Hmmmm. Now you might be getting somewhere.
By Lew
November 21, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this
Coach-You’re talking complete Freaking Idiot? We know, you do it constantly.
By DAP
November 21, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this
hampton’s agent: “We’re looking for a straight one-year deal - no option, no nothing.”
i wonderif this means he WONT do an option year, or if he isnt expecting it. if this is true, the braves need to bring him back. as much as we need pitching, getting hampton would be a good move. id give him one year, $6mil, and a $10mil 2nd year option with like a $2mil buyout. that would garuntee him $8mil this season, and possibly $16mil over two years. seems reasonable, but who knows what kind of 1 year offers hes getting.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 21, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this
And Coach raises the level of discourse on the blog.
Nice to have a civilized conversation …
By PopeVanIII
November 21, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this
DOB @ 11:31,
First of all, no, Dunn and Howard do not have the same park-adjusted career OPS. (It’s referred to as OPS+, by those who know what they’re talking about, FWIW.) Howard’s obviously better, but it’s closer than you think.
Yesterday, you cited batting average (stupid, limited stat) and RBIs (stupid, team-dependent stat) as reasons for Howard’s superiority…and those are weak reasons.
Anyway, back to the 11:31 post—do you even know what park-adjusted means? You reference that and then cite…the fact that they play in different home parks. That’s the whole point of OPS+! It neutralizes stadiums and provides a metric to assert the relative values of different guys’ offensive production.
By TennesseePaul
November 21, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this
Also, with Wren’s comments on Yunel being our shortstop and saying our infield is set, I’m finding it hard to believe Yunel was even part of the Peavy deal, or will be supposing it even gets done. It also makes me think that maybe the KJ for Ludwick deal was in the minds of the Cards, only
Team policy. Yunel is our short stop is merely a statement of fact and does not exclude the possibility that he might be part of a trade. As you can see in the rest of the chat with Frank he didn’t specify any trade peices or proposals.
Yunel may or may not have been part of the trade for Peavy, but I don’t think one can make any conclusions on the matter from that one statement.
After reading through all of the Padres notes and conversations it would appear that the hang up was in an attempt to acquire Hanson, or at least some other top five prospect, all of whom appear to be off limits.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 21, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this
The sheer level of stupidity and ignorance in this blog is clearly reflective of the lack of real baseball knowledge.
Some of you guys are a bunch of frauds. No nothing yoyo’s who excel at nothing except for your feeble attempts at reason. Get a life. I’m right and I know I’m right. It takes integrity to agree and zero brains to join the herd mentality.
O’Brien, if you would set some parameters and rules of civility this crap wouldn’t devolve into grade school insults. Instead, it is allowed. And you, David O’Brien have failed in your responsibility at keeping people in line. I am out of here. You will not be hearing from me for quit some time.
By GermanBravesFan
November 21, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this
DOB: oooops… I had to leave earlier and didn’t see that I wasn’t clear in my post. I meant whether the Braves would consider trading Flowers. My bad! Of course McCann won’t go anywhere!!
So, do you think the Braves might consider trading Flowers?
By Shaun
November 21, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this
TennesseePaul, can’t speak for Bravedawg but every one of my posts on the subject clearly say Dunn and Howard were very similar in 2008, but that Howard has been better in his career.
But 143 and 130 is probably closer than some would expect.
By DAP
November 21, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this
coach shame on you for your 12:48pm post. that was uncalled for.
By Anders
November 21, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this
Dap
anders disagrees with this…so you think the division should be handed to one of these teams without playing the games? thats what i get out of it.
Based on the teams as they stand right now as that’s all we have I don’t think the Braves have a shot in H… of beating out the Mets or Phillies. Now, based on what is being talked about in the offseason by all three I don’t see how the Braves can come close to closing a 17 to 20 game gap in one year. That’s what I meant.
The fact that they are even considering trading Escobar tells me how desperate things are for them. Hudson going down for the year absolutely crippled the Braves for 2009. Think of how different things would be if he was sitting on top of that rotation right now?
Last year’s Braves had Smoltz, Glavine, Hudson,Kotsay and Tex in their plans. They’re all gone and most without equitable replacements. How could you expect more from next years team at this juncture?
Come on guys - be logical here.
By nolie
November 21, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this
Posnanski on Batting Average, Home Runs, RBI
If you are about my age+, then you grew up as a baseball fan with three statistics and only three statistics. There was batting average. There were home runs runs. And there were RBIs. That was it.
+You might also groan when you get out of a chair and get just a little bit too excited when you come across some nostalgic thing you had forgotten all about like Lite Brite or the Dean Martin Celebrity Roast or Wacky Packies. And right about now you are humming the Superfriends Theme.
It would be difficult to overstate how deeply those three statistics were burned into our baseball fan psyche. Every single time we would watch a game on television, we would see those three same stats, always the same three stats, listed below the batter, usually in large blocky letters so that it looked like so:
Graig Nettles
.267 avg. 21 home runs 91 RBI
Often, they would put the numbers across the screen, horizontally — but no matter the design, it was still the same three numbers. But it wasn’t just on television. The newspapers would only list those numbers. And every time you would hear a game on the radio, the announcer in (I suspect) every single town would give the players name followed by the those three numbers: “That will bring up Sixto Lezcano, Sixto’s hitting .273 on the year, 21 homers, 49 runs batted in.”
Same numbers in the same order every time.
Baseball cards would have a couple more numbers on the back, but not many more. In the early-to-mid 1970s when I started collecting cards, the only numbers they had on the back other than the core three: at-bats, hits, doubles and triples. It wasn’t until 1977 1976* that Topps even put RUNS on the back on cards. In 1978, they added games. In 1981, around that time when the Donruss and Fleer cards started to offer some competition, Topps added stolen bases, slugging percentage (what was this slugging voodoo?) walks and strikeouts. And that’s how it stayed until my Cleveland Indians card collection runs out in 1987.
*More on this in a new baseball card post.
My point is we were INUNDATED with batting average, homers and RBIs. We were INOCULATED with batting average, homers and RBIs. We were BRAINWASHED with batting average, homers and RBIs — those are, for kids of my generation, like the queen of diamonds in “The Manchurian Candidate.” If someone called me up right now and said, “Why don’t you pass the time by playing a little solitaire,” and I looked at my baseball cards, and came across batting average, homers and RBIs, yeah, I’d probably be programmed to kill.
I think it’s good, every so often, to consider how deeply batting average, homers and RBIs are cut into our baseball DNA. Those were more or less the only numbers we were even ALLOWED to consider. Why do you think Bill James was such a seminal figure — it’s because he so clearly and concisely and hilariously was able to slap our faces and show us that, yeah, there was more out there, a bigger world. He was like the baseball version of Morpheus for us. Red pill or blue pill. Blue pill you can stick with your core statistics and believe that Steve Garvey had a good season in 1984 and Andre Dawson deserved his ‘87 MVP. Red pill and you can see beyond: .279, 14, 74.
The funny part is that even after you appreciate that there is a bigger baseball world, it’s very hard to completely break away from what you grew up with. Sure, I KNOW that on-base percentage is a more compelling statistic than batting average, and yet I find myself looking at batting average first. I KNOW that home runs, while significant, do not give as complete a picture of a batter’s power as slugging percentage does … but I am built to look at the home run number and make judgments. I KNOW that RBIs give an utterly incomplete picture of a baseball player’s hitting talent, but I cannot help but feel a bit of admiration when I see that someone knocked in 97 ribbies.*
*That would be Jose Guillen. I KNOW that Jose Guillen was one of the worst everyday players in the American League last year. I know this. He’s an awful fielder. He can’t and often doesn’t run. He had a .300 on-base percentage, which is abominable (third-worst among corner outfielders). He had a .438 slugging percentage which is barely one step above abominable for a guy who was signed for $12 million per so he could hit with power. He was a total pain in the Hillman. And while he had a smoking hot 44-game stretch in the middle of the year (.380/.391/.659 with 10 home runs … and, yeah, two walks), the other 109 games he was, no exaggeration, the worst player in baseball. He hit .215/.263/.344 as a lousy fielding corner outfielder with an attitude … you simply can’t pay enough for that kind of dreadfulness.
BUT … I can’t help it. I see those 97 RBIs and, against my will, I find myself reverting to childhood and involuntarily thinking, “Hey, that’s a lot of ribbies.” A person my age cannot help this, it’s impulse and reflex . It’s like if you go up to anybody my age, anyone, and start that Muppet Show song — you know “Me-nah-me-nah” — they will, without wanting to, respond with “Doo-doooo-doo-do-do.” It’s in our genes.
So what’s wrong with a baseball world filled only with batting average, homers and RBIs? OK, well, I think everyone here can appreciate why on-base percentage is so much more telling than batting average. I’ve written at length on this, like everyone else has, but to put it simply: Batting average — for reasons that go back more than 100 years — does not incorporate walks. On-base percentage DOES incorporate walks. There’s your difference. Walks are very good things for a hitter. Very good things. Important things. Significant things. Very significant things.
In my view, walks, even now, even after Moneyball, are wildly underrated. One of the many cool things Bill James has shown — and others have shown it in different ways as well — is that if a player could walk EVERY AT BAT, he would be the most productive player in baseball history. And that would be true no matter HOW brutal the players around him might be. Someone who walked every time — and I remember reading a kids book about the possibility, “The Boy Who Always Walked” or something — would be more productive than Barry Bonds or Babe Ruth or Ted Williams in their greatest seasons. Bill and others proved this in really cool and dramatic ways — I believe Bill even set up some computer simulation to prove the point. I don’t know how to to do computer simulations, but I should be able to give demonstrate this in a few short sentences:
OK, so, the all-time record for total bases in a season is Babe Ruth with 457 in 1921. That’s a massive season. If you tack on his 145 walks and the four times he was hit by a pitch (Four hit-by-pitch? That’s all? Hey does someone want to move the Babe off the plate or something?), you get 606 grand total bases, which is the most in baseball history.
If they had walked the Babe every single time, he would have had 693 grand total bases, which would be, you know, more.
Barry Bonds in 2004 — the year he had that sick .609 on-base percentage — had 303 total bases along with 232 walks (amazing) and 9 hit-by pitch. That’s a grand total of 544 total bases.
If they had walked Bonds every single time that season — and Lord knows they tried — he would have had 617 grand total-bases.
Ted Williams in 1941 hit .406 with 37 homers, 147 walks, a .735 slugging percentage. His grand total bases — total bases plus walks plus hit-by pitch — was 485.
If they had walked the Splinter every time, he would have had 606 grand total bases.
So it’s pretty simple. Walks are a critical part of the game. The best on-base guys reach base about 270-300 times per season and more than a third of those are on walks. Batting average does not consider walks. So there you go: It’s pretty clear to see that batting average is a very flawed statistic — it’s a bit like calculating a quarterback passer rating for every pass he makes EXCEPT when he throws to the running backs or the tight end.*
*Well, you know how much I love creating new statistics … what about “Grand Total Bases?” That would be total bases plus walks plus hit-by-pitch:
2008 leaders in GTB
And in 2007:
And over the last 25 years: 1. Barry Bonds, 2001, 597 2. Mark McGwire, 1998, 551 3. Sammy Sosa, 2001, 547 4. Barry Bonds, 2004, 544 5. Luis Gonzalez, 2001, 533 6. Carlos Delgado, 2000, 516 7. Todd Helton, 2000, 512 8. Todd Helton, 2001, 505 9. Larry Walker, 1997, 501 10. Ryan Howard, 2006, 500
Anyway, I think it’s interesting.
OK, the second part of the equation — home runs are obviously very important. But I think that our obsession with counting home runs has probably skewed our view of the good power hitter. Tony Muser and others have made the semi-comical, semi-interesting assertion that doubles are sometimes better than home runs because they keep rallies going and keep the pressure on pitchers, and while I I would not go there I would say that doubles are another underrated part of baseball.
Ryan Howard hit 48 homers last year, which led the league, and so you would think he was the most powerful hitter around. But he only hit 26 doubles and his .543 slugging percentage placed him SEVENTH in the National League. so he was, in fact, NOT the most powerful hitter. He was the best home run hitter. But that’s not the same thing.
Then there are RBIs. Whew. RBIs. It is interesting to me that, for about as long as baseball has been played, people have viewed RBIs as more important than runs scored. It really seems to me it should be at tie, or, if anything, it should be the other way around. After all, to SCORE a run you have to:
There are no other ways to score a run. You have to do those three things. Of course there are cheap and easy ways to get on base (by error, fielder’s choice, catcher’s interference, etc.). There are cheap and easy ways to get around the bases (wild pitch, balk, error, etc.) and there are cheap and easy ways to score runs (trotting around on someone else’s home run, scoring on passed ball, etc.). But you still have to accomplish those three feats, and the likelihood of scoring a run without doing something good is pretty low. More often than not it takes multiple skills to score a run.
Meanwhile, knocking in a run requires only one act: Hitting a baseball in such a way that a runner scores. That’s all. Sometimes this means driving yourself in by hitting a home run. Sometimes this means getting a huge clutch hit with runners in scoring position and two outs. Often enough, it means hitting a fly ball with a runner on third base — the only time a fly ball is worth anything. Often enough it means hitting a routine ground ball with the infield back — the only time a routine ground ball is worth anything. Often enough it means getting a hit against a mop-up pitcher with the game out of reach.
The point is — what takes more overall skill? I think you could argue pretty persuasively that — and we’re talking generally here — scoring the run takes more skill. And yet the RBI has been the statistic of choice for a long time. The RBI, obviously, has a better press agent.
There are so many problems with judging a player by RBIs. Do you know who the best, the absolute best, RBI man in baseball was last year — assuming that by “RBI man” we are talking about the player who most efficiently drove in runners on base? I suppose many of you do know because the blog is based in Kansas City, but for the rest of you it will probably come as a bit of a shock: The answer is David DeJesus. Last season, DeJesus drove in 21.5% of the runners that were on base when he came to the plate. That was a better percentage than Josh Hamilton, better percentage than Ryan Howard, better than Kevin Youkilis, better than anyone.
Of course, you will point out, that DeJesus only had 73 RBIs, less than half of Ryan Howard’s total. Where are all those extra RBIs coming from? They are easy to locate:
– Ryan Howard hit 48 home runs to DeJesus’ 12. So that’s 36 more RBIs right off the top.
– DeJesus was usually the leadoff hitter for a Royals team that mostly had Tony Pena, Joey Gathright, John Buck, Ross Gload hitting in front of him. The Royals bottom three in the order hit:
7th: .245/.288/.364 8th: .252/.310/.357 9th: .233/.281/.285
So who in the heck did DeJesus have to drive in? Nobody, that’s the answer. David DeJesus only had 284 runners on base when he came to the plate. Ryan Howard had 199 more baserunners — 483.
That’s a huge difference. Put it this way: If David DeJesus has performed exactly the way he did only with Ryan Howard’s men-on-base, he would have had 114 RBIs last year. And that’s assuming he still only hit 12 home runs. If you want to be kind and give him another eight home runs — not unreasonably considering he would have gotten out of cavernous Kauffman Stadium — then he might have had 125 RBIs or 130 RBIs. And suddenly, people would be saying David DeJesus — doing not much more than he did this year — was the league MVP.
RBIs are just so much about circumstance. I’ll give you another great Ryan Howard statistic — and I don’t mean to keep picking on Howard, but he’s just in the middle of all this because he led the league in homers and RBIs.
So, we know Ryan Howard drove in 146 RBIs. Do you know what Howard hit in those situations called late and close — that would be seventh inning or later with the score close (tied, within one run, tying run on base, at plate or on deck)? Now, remember, this is the guy who LED THE LEAGUE in RBIs. So you could take away from that that he must have hit well in the clutch, he must have knocked in runs when the team needed them, he must have performed at his best when the game was on the line.
Ryan Howard came up late-and-close 124 times. He hit … .158 in those situations. He on-based .306. He slugged .337.
That is not Tony Pena. But it’s the nicer house in his neighborhood.*
*Or to put it in Monopoly terms — it’s like a hotel on Baltic.
Does this mean Ryan Howard cannot hit in the clutch? Absolutely not. In 2006, when Howard had a massive year, he hit .290/.436/.613 in late and close. No, it just means that those RBI totals, while they are nice to look at, don’t tell you very much.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 21, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this
Coach,
You’re not the Source of All Knowledge. People disagree. Intelligent ones and dumb ones, too. Deal with it, or get lost.
By Lew
November 21, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this
Anders-I realize it’s way too much to expect you to quit being a complete and utter @$$, but one can always hope.
No one seriously has suggested a Yankees deal at all. As for the Mets being worlds above the Braves in talent-just how do you figure that?
First of all, we have quite possibly the best catcher in the NL-y’all don’t. At first, Kotchman has potential, but is DelGado the 07 or the 08 version? If the former, then we have the edge. If not, then we will just have to see if Kotchman lives up to his potential. At second, I’d take KJ over Castillo any day of the week. At short, y’all have an edge, but not as much of one as you think you do. At third, the only edge you have is Wright’s playing time (and those NY writers who think he’s so great and keep giving him awards). In the outfield, both of us have questions at two positions. Beltran is better than our options-no argument there, but let’s see how we do this winter with the other two outfield spots.
In the rotation, you have three certainties. We have one and maybe two or three, but have potential coming from the minors in Hanson, Medlin and Marek-y’all don’t. As to the other spots-we’re looking, just like the Mets are
As for the bullpen-Braves, hands down.
Dude, I fail to see that the Mets are set in their lineup at all any more than the Braves are. I also fail to see the Worlds Above us in talent that you seem to see. Y’all have three positions that edge us out and not much more, with only one of those positions (center) and ONE starter being more than an edge. Let’s just hold off on comparing rotations until we both actually have one.
Like I said-where’s this huge differential you are talking about?
By Efrim
November 21, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this
Where did Steve from OH say something that was out of line? Where did anyone say something that was out of line? Except for that 12:48PM post of course….
By Steve from OH
November 21, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this
G-TownKid, if he was baiting me, it sure as heck worked. That post was a bit too snarky for my own tastes, but I do hate it when people talk down Bobby Cox like that. At the very least, the dude deserves a lot of respect for his track record, I think.
Anyhoo, I think I one-year deal for Hampton is a fine idea, even if his peripherals weren’t as good as we’d like. I think he’s more likely to be on the over side of his projections, anyway. As long as we’re not paying too much, its a low-risk, high-reward play.
By Roman Gal
November 21, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this
McRomanGirl Fann
Shucks…I’m not sure if I’m supposed to be flattered that I have a fan or not. FYI, I’m not even old enough to run for senate or rent a car yet.
Efrim I just wish more people would write what they think about Hanson’s ceiling after seeing him this year rather than just how well he’s performed in the AFL. It does say something about how good the Braves think he’s going to be since they apparently refuse to trade him.
By DAP
November 21, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this
coach Some of you guys are a bunch of frauds.
what? who here, other than you, claims to be anything other than an avid baseball fan blogging? ive never seen anyone talk about thier expertise except you! how can we be fruadulent bloggers? thats dumb, coach. really stupid.
O’Brien, if you would set some parameters and rules of civility this crap wouldn’t devolve into grade school insults. Instead, it is allowed. And you, David O’Brien have failed in your responsibility at keeping people in line.
….i dont know what to say. i cant believe you of all people would say something like this. you are one of the main bloggers guilty of uncivility.
I am out of here. You will not be hearing from me for quit some time.
good! i hope its a very very very long time! (like forever)
By TennesseePaul
November 21, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this
Payne: When looking at OPS+ and people suggesting it was close, I would have thought 5 points or so, not 13.
But, while looking at these guys I was struck by how close they are… Dunn was born on November 9th, 1979. Howard on Novemeber 19th, 1979. One in Houston. The other in Saint Louis. One is 6-4, 230. The other is 6-6, 240. And they both enjoy long walks on the beach.
Insane!
But back to the OPS+… oh let’s see here… 2008 was similar: Dunn 129, Howard 124. (There’s the five points). But these guys are clean up hitters. And I’d split this hair on batting average for a clean up hitter. I know you like the OBP, but if the guy is there to knock in runs, I want him knocking. And that is what Howard does. That’s what the OBP does. This is why Howard has a higher success rate of knocking in runs than Dunn.
At any rate, the 2008 debate could boil down to sample size in which case you are back to a career analysis and Howard wins out. Easily.
By Roll the Hole
November 21, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this
Steve, you sir, are a God Damned fool. And I’m talking complete freaking IDIOT. Don’t ever talk to me again. Just go F** yourself , OK ? Thank you.Coochie poo
BAD BOY ! BAD ! ! BAD ! BAD !. Just thinking of you as a coach, which I’m afraid would place you in close contact with youngsters, is frightening & disgusting. FIE!
By i cant take it anymore
November 21, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this
COACH, where are you going?
By Shaun
November 21, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this
PopeVanIII, you’ve done it! You brought up the term ‘park-adjusted.’ Now you’ll be made fun of even though the folks making fun of you will never even think of trying to understand what park-adjusted means.
By Lew
November 21, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this
TenPaul and Efrim-Just my opinion-just as uninformed as your’s or anyone else’s until we see a done deal (Anders-that’s what Fait accomplis means). Wren did mention when he called off the Peavy deal that not all players prevalently mentioned were actual inclusions. Any speculation as to which players they were is just that-speculation.
Efrim-you’re right-all of this speculation is totally meaningless, which is why you’ll rarely see me predicting potential deals. Until they make me the GM (which ain’t gonna happen, IMO), I’ll just wait until I see DOB’s confirmation of the done deal.
By DAP
November 21, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this
anders itll be hard to make up 17 games, youre right. i think its more possible if the mets and or phillies take steps back as well as the braves improving. honestly, all it would take would be santana or hamels to go down.
its possible, thats all im saying. i think that improving the rotation will improve the braves more than just the games they would win, because i think it will help the bullpen win more games as well. the braves offense is modest but its still actually pretty good.
remember detroit? all it takes is for things not to go to plan, (like it didnt for the braves in 2008) if things go better than planned (2007 rockies?), which also happens, good, unexpected things can happen.
By Nocturnal Owl (Coach will NOTbe missed)
November 21, 2008 1:32 PM | Link to this
Coach go get some sleep……
By Anders
November 21, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this
Lew
I believe if you knew my actual credentials and level of responsibility it would stagger you. At least based on what you write regarding my mental capacity and all. I don’t post that for my benefit, but to answer your unwarranted slurs. If it makes you feel superior to insist that I’m a moron and can’t keep up with your supposed supreme intellect, well then so be it.
I take heart in the fact that those who read these posts will see them for what they are. I’m quite comfortable with that.
As for comparing the Mets to the Braves, again, I was responding to your post doing just that. Why is this so hard to see?
By Eware
November 21, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this
Coach has a potty mouth.
By Nocturnal Owl (Coach n Lou will NOT be missed)
November 21, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
Well no additions to our beloved team
But we did lose Coach and Lou Valez!
Thats a successful 24hours to me!!!
By TommyP
November 21, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
Nolie: That was far too long…but fun to read. :)
I think Coach declared his absence before getting banned (as he should be).
How much will Oliver Perez cost? He’s young so he could be your 2nd SP acquired.
The first would be either Lowe or Pettitte. (not sure if Pettitte would come here, though)
Lowe, Jurrjens, Perez, Hanson, Campillo.
Next year Lowe, Hudson, Jurrjens, Perez, Hanson.
I’m assuming about $15 mil/year for Lowe and about $12 mil/year for Perez????? Still have money for that LF (Ibanez?). And probably still some more for that deadline deal.
And you keep all of your talented prospects to develop and start plugging into the lineup/rotation.
By DAP
November 21, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
bravesfaninrockies Deal with it, or get lost.
at this point, i wouldnt give coach that option.
By Lew
November 21, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
Shaun-I think more people here are aware of Park Adjusted and all of it’s ramifications (actually one of the New Math stats I totally agree with) than you seem to think. It’s a concept that predates the stats by quite a few decades-even with we Statistical Fossils.
EG-We have always wondered what Willie May’s power stats might have been had he played his entire career at the Polo Grounds with it’s ridiculously short right and left field lines. Of course, it DID have a 500 foot center field, but if you were a pull hitter…….Still, had The Say Hey Kid played there a couple more years, Hank may not have been the one to break the Babe’s record.
By jj
November 21, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this
*Coach *that was not cool.Every body has bad days but that was a little to far. I know you better than that.Thats not the Coach who blogs that I respect.
Everyone should stop calling others names, there’s no reason for it. God Bless the USA.
By gogobraves
November 21, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this
Efrim
i do not believe they would be able to trade for him.. just saying that it would be nice - but you never know maybe tyler flowers and a good pitching prospect might interest them?
By kdbanks
November 21, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this
Coach is angry. I think I remember him from my Little League days when I couldn’t get a hit to save my life. Dad is that you?
By Fred
November 21, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this
Coach, Your 12:48 PM comment is 100% a reflection of the type of person you are, no one else. I work at an alternative school with behavior disorder kids and they react the same way when disagreeing with someone. There is absolutely no place for that type of language and verbal assault on this blog.
By nolie
November 21, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this
Anybody who has participated in the frequent debates on different stats(Steve,Shaun,N8 etc) should really read the Posnanski article that I posted above. Some great entertaining thoughts about what we think amd why.
By Shaun
November 21, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this
TennesseePaul, I’m simply saying a lot of people would probably be surprised by 13 points.
I would argue that a cleanup hitter’s (or any hitter’s) job isn’t just to knock in runs or score runs. It’s to create runs. And I would argue that Howard didn’t do as good a job as many other MVP candidates in creating runs because he costs his team outs at a higher rate than many others.
I think people confuse RBI with creating runs. But creating runs is more than just RBI. Creating runs involves getting on base, not making outs and gaining bases.
By Steve from OH
November 21, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this
nolie, excellent article. I should really read Posnanski’s blog more frequently than I do.
By Shaun
November 21, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this
Lew, right. Not sure what you mean by “New Math.” Branch Rickey and Allen Roth were really the grandfathers of the “sabermetric” front office.
By Lew
November 21, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this
Anders-Yeah right-let’s get into an IQ P!$$!ng contest. Dude, if you’re as intelligent as you’d like us to believe, actually posting something intelligent upon occasion would go a long way towards convincing us-certainly moreso than telling us how staggered we’d be in your true intellectual presence-would we be required to bow to it?
As for needing you to feel superior-well, you’d be staggered just how little anyone even thinks about you when you’re not here pontificating horse manure. Believe me-your name doesn’t even come up. Nor do the Mets.
Imagine-a New York Mets fan, one of the most arrogant and obnoxious of all creations complaining about us not being nice. Pots, kettles and whatnot.
As for making up 17 games-maybe having actual healthy pitchers for an entire year, not having to pitch three rookies in our starting rotation and having a full bullpen for a whole season might make more of a difference than you seem to think. I seem to remember that before we lost Hudson and traded Teixeira with two months left in them season, we were right in the thick of it all until the All Star break-DESPITE losing Smoltz, Glavine, Soriano and Moylan and not having our closer Gonzalez or Mike Hampton for the first half of the year.
By Fred
November 21, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
Anders, Regarding your 1:34 PM post, maybe you need to consider why other bloggers have developed that perception of you.
By Thrillhouse44
November 21, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this
I don’t post that for my benefit, but to answer your unwarranted slurs. Anders
Unwarranted slurs? How is Lew stating the needs of the Mets an unwarranted slur? You may not be a moron, but you’re definitely confused.
By JimD
November 21, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this
Apparently Coach doesn’t like it when we take his own precious stats and use them against him. Oh well.
By Lew
November 21, 2008 2:04 PM | Link to this
Shaun-Just a convenient term-don’t read anything into it.
Park adjusted really does mean something significant to my way of thinking-especially when attempting to compare players of different eras. When I was a kid, there were stadiums like Connie Mack in Philly, with 447 foot center field walls. Or Forbes Field in Pittsburgh, with an incredibly long left field line-certainly a big difference from venues of today such as Citizens Bank Ball park in Philly or Minute Maid in Houston.
By TennesseePaul
November 21, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this
I would argue that a cleanup hitter’s (or any hitter’s) job isn’t just to knock in runs or score runs. It’s to create runs. And I would argue that Howard didn’t do as good a job as many other MVP candidates in creating runs because he costs his team outs at a higher rate than many others
Ah, well if you would argue a point about an MVP vote, then you have moved on to a totally different topic. I was discussing Dunn vs. Howard. When ever you would like to get back to that topic let me know.
But as to the purpose of a clean up hitter, I would agree that the goal of all hitters in the line up should be to create runs. But, the ideal gas law is just that, ideal.
I’d lean more on the third hitter in the line up to create runs, more than the fourth hitter. I’d love it if both could work just as efficiently, but I know that is near impossible. And hence, I’d rather have Howard in the fourth spot over Dunn.
By ncscoots
November 21, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this
Now you’ll be made fun of even though the folks making fun of you will never even think of trying to understand what park-adjusted means.
Lighten up, bro. Some of us used “park-adjusted” in a humorous vein because, well, it just lends itself to such a use. Don’t take it personally, LOL. It’s not a condemnation of you as a human being or anything.
Well, at least, not for me. :-)
By Shaun
November 21, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH, good blog post. Here is the link:
http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2008/11/20/batting-average-home-runs-rbis/
Here are a few highlights:
David DeJesus only had 284 runners on base when he came to the plate. Ryan Howard had 199 more baserunners — 483.
That’s a huge difference. Put it this way: If David DeJesus has performed exactly the way he did only with Ryan Howard’s men-on-base, he would have had 114 RBIs last year. And that’s assuming he still only hit 12 home runs. If you want to be kind and give him another eight home runs — not unreasonably considering he would have gotten out of cavernous Kauffman Stadium — then he might have had 125 RBIs or 130 RBIs. And suddenly, people would be saying David DeJesus — doing not much more than he did this year — was the league MVP.
RBIs are just so much about circumstance. I’ll give you another great Ryan Howard statistic — and I don’t mean to keep picking on Howard, but he’s just in the middle of all this because he led the league in homers and RBIs.
So, we know Ryan Howard drove in 146 RBIs. Do you know what Howard hit in those situations called late and close — that would be seventh inning or later with the score close (tied, within one run, tying run on base, at plate or on deck)? Now, remember, this is the guy who LED THE LEAGUE in RBIs. So you could take away from that that he must have hit well in the clutch, he must have knocked in runs when the team needed them, he must have performed at his best when the game was on the line.
Ryan Howard came up late-and-close 124 times. He hit … .158 in those situations. He on-based .306. He slugged .337.
It shouldn’t be controversial that judging a player by AVG-HR-RBI is absolutely ridiculous. But it still is in many quarters.
By DAP
November 21, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this
unwarranted slur
in anders’ defense, a mets fan is a terrible thing to call someone.
By Lew
November 21, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this
Shaun-I think you might actually be staggered (maybe more than we would be staggered by Anders’ alleged intelligence) at what I think of most of the Sabermetric way of viewing baseball. I place a bit more credence in some of the stats than you might think. I just don’t feel the need to view everything at it’s sub-atomic level to appreciate or to understand the game. And I DO delight in arguing with you-strictly for the sake of arguing.
By Lew
November 21, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this
Thrillhouse-I’m working on your Wurlitzer-may take some time though-just found out another retinal procedure is in my future in the next couple of weeks. Yet another in the continuing series, it would appear. No big deal, but it may put me a bit behind.
By Efrim
November 21, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this
Roman Gal
I just wish more people would write what they think about Hanson’s ceiling after seeing him this year rather than just how well he’s performed in the AFL. It does say something about how good the Braves think he’s going to be since they apparently refuse to trade him.
Yea, it’s possible that they haven’t seen him since then and they just want to be able to form an opinion for themselves. Who knows? I think enough people will find out about him soon enough.
By Roach
November 21, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this
Guys this is a blog. And what is the one thing that 99% of people are in here for because we LOVE the BRAVES!!! and what to see them to the best they can. Thats why we blog about it and discuss every single possibility because we want the BEST out of our TEAM.
By Caleb
November 21, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this
DOB, even though you’ve apparently “failed in your responsibility at keeping people in line” here on the blog, maybe you could hold all of our hands as we walk through life to make sure we behave. Thanks.
By Lew
November 21, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this
Well Denizens-It’s been fun, as usual, but it’s time to draw a few lines and listen to the new Buck Cherry CD Black Butterfly. NO one will ever claim this is good fare for young minds-they DO deserve their Parental Discretion advisory-but the boys DO know how to rock to extremes. For those into the harder edge of rock and roll, this is a good one. They do kick butt.
By Shaun
November 21, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this
TennesseePaul, I agree. I’d rather have Howard than Dunn (in any spot in the order). But in 2008 it is close, I’d venture to say a lot closer than some realize.
By Marty
November 21, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this
Yay, Coach is gone! Thanks, Steve!
By ncscoots
November 21, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this
It shouldn’t be controversial that judging a player by AVG-HR-RBI is absolutely ridiculous. But it still is in many quarters.
Yes, too bad that concept was not the point of Posnanski’s blurb. He was pointing out that the nature of the three stats is ingrained in many of us, whether we praise or ridicule any others. Pulling out that particular “highlight” from the entire article might be considered a wee bit self-serving.
As for me, the three stats may not give me a complete picture of the player (nor would I claim that they do), but they do provide a frame of reference that is quickly and easily comparative. Because I have a lot of years and players worth of experience using those stats to do just that.
And, regardless of the values in other, perhaps more meaningful metrics, a .250 hitter is still a .250 hitter. And in no universe should that be considered “good”.
By Thrillhouse44
November 21, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
Lew, take your time on the Wurlitzer. I’m anxious for it, but these are busy times. Ones meant to enjoy with those you care about. And your top priority should be taking care of yourself and eyes. Priority #2, putting trolls like Anders in their place. Take care of yourself and keep rocking.
By cincybrave
November 21, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this
As someone who grew up in Cincinnati, and spent a lot of time watching Dunn, here is the best comparison I can come up with that ALL Braves fans can understand: Dunn is as polarizing as AJ was in 2007. Those that are fans of Dunn’s point to the Home run, OPS, RBI, walks and runs. Those that hate him point to his average, strike outs, RISP, and defense. You either love him or hate him. And while I love him as a player, and think he would fit in great in the laid back clubhouse of the Braves, I think it would be a terrible mistake for the Braves to pay $12 million per year, or more, for his services. And if you think he will take less than that, for less than 5 years, you are very mistaken. Someone will pay that for the excitement that his bat will provide.
By Nate
November 21, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this
Why is it that so many people on this blog except Schafer to step in and be the rookie of the year next year? Wren said yesterday he excepts Schafer to start in AAA. Granted, I’ve never seen Schafer play, but nothing from stats in the minors really screams that this kid is ready for Atlanta. He’s never played above double A, and he got suspended for juicing.
Besides a lot of hype and publicity, what is it about him that has so many of you believing that he step into the CF job in Atlanta next year and hit .280 with 20 HR’s. Am I missing something?
By ugacpa02
November 21, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this
DOB asked earlier if I really think Flowers will be in Atlanta this year. No I don’t. However, isn’t he looking to skip a level in the minor leagues due to a very successful fall?
I’m interested if now that the AAA team is in the Atlanta area in a nice park and needing to build a fanbase, will we see more top prospects spending time there? It’s seemed to me in the past that our best prospects spent more time in the lower levels and sometimes skipped AAA altogether. Will we be considering Heyward/Freeman/Flowers/Hernandez for AAA this year or will they be taken slowly through AA or even just high A?
Also, when did this “high” A level come about? Seems we should just go ahead and send the best to AA after a year in single A.
By Lee in S GA
November 21, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
ncscoots - good 2:39 post.
I would dare say the average fan looks at it that way also and you are correct. Those 3 stats still give me a good enough picture to decide if I want the player on my team or not.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 21, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
Lew,
Stay warm and recover quickly. We’ve not had any measurable snow in Denver yet, but it’s on the way. El Nino may be back, and the last time that happened, we had two feet of snow in late December that didn’t fully melt until April. Yikes.
By Shaun
November 21, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
ncscoots, Posnanski writes “There are so many problems with judging a player by RBIs.”
No matter what the point of the article, it’s clear what Posnanski was trying to convey: That judging hitters by AVG, HR and RBI is a matter of tradition and is absolutely not the best way to judge a hitter.
By Shaun
November 21, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
Lee in S GA, It’s not a matter of those three stats giving you a “good enough” picture. It’s a matter of that there are stats that give you a much better picture. And, in fact, those three stats can be deceiving.
Look at the example of David Dejesus versus Ryan Howard. As Posanski points out, if Dejesus had hit with as many runners as Howard and did everything else exactly the same, he’d have easily driven in well over 100 runs.
By BA
November 21, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this
Lew said that based on Wren’s comments that “I’m finding it hard to believe Escobar was even part of the Peavy deal”
So if he was, and the deal fell through, do you think Wren would say something like “we’re not happy with our shortstop, and the infield is anything but decided”?!
So if Wren says nice things publicly about his players, that means he isn’t willing to deal them? That’s just dumb.
One of the dumber things I’ve ever seen posted from someone who revels daily in telling countless others how dumb their opinions are.
By Shaun
November 21, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
Yes, too bad that concept was not the point of Posnanski’s blurb. He was pointing out that the nature of the three stats is ingrained in many of us, whether we praise or ridicule any others. Pulling out that particular “highlight” from the entire article might be considered a wee bit self-serving.
Maybe you didn’t read the entire piece. It’s clear that Posnanski meant that even though those three stats are ingrained in us (even those who realize they aren’t the best way to judge hitters), there are drastic problems with judging hitters on the basis of those stats.
He brings up how batting average doesn’t take into account walks. He brings up that RBI are highly dependent on other players in the lineup and that often times it takes much less skill to drive in a run than it does to score a run.
By Bobby's Cox
November 21, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this
Flustered Fan
Yesterday you asked the all important question we’ve all been wondering, who plays short if Escobar is traded for Peavy?
This is from the Yahoo! Sports Braves team report, dated Nov. 21 (today):
INF Martin Prado stood to gain a starting position had the Braves traded SS Yunel Escobar to the Padres for RHP Jake Peavy. Now that the trade seems to have fallen through, manager Bobby Cox will have to find another spot for him. Prado outperformed all expectations when he had to be the emergency first baseman at the end of the 2008 season.
This is news to me, as it is for all of us. As high as I am on Prado, as most of you know, I’m not sure he’d be a good replacement for short.
Not sure why Yahoo’s take differs from the take on the blog, but I’m more inclined to believe what DOB said, that the Braves probably wouldn’t have Prado play short. His best chances of playing still lie in Johnson getting traded.
By Elmer
November 21, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this
In truth,the Braves don’t have the deep pockets to compete for a “Big Dog” with the Yanks or Cubs. And a trade will give away a talented regular like Escabar!
By Wayne
November 21, 2008 3:35 PM | Link to this
Bobby’s Cox You are dead on about Prado. Good hand, limited range and arm. Will the bat stay at 2008’s level? Time will tell. I hope so, but I am not confident.
I also think a guy like Lillibridge will eventually be a better player to have on our team.
Hey FW, we need a Peavy announcement!
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this
Bobby’s Cox, I would ask where do you think Yahoo gets its info, since they don’t have a person covering the Braves? I can assure you, Prado hasn’t been mentioned as a possible SS replacement by people I’ve asked.
By Dixie Dawg
November 21, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this
I’ll probably get reemed out for saying this, but what the Padres are wanting for Peavy is just way too much. Sure, he’s a good pitcher and all, but it sure is going to deplete a lot of our young talent just for a guy whose heart really isn’t into coming here anyways. IMO, I think that dealing away Escobar could come back to haunt us. I don’t think that we should be so obsessed with coming back in 09 with a vengence. I think we should develop the players we have and not put so much stock in one guy (Peavy).
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this
ugacpa: You asked if Flowers is in line to skip a level. When I asked about a week ago, I was told Flowers right now is most likely to start out catching at Double-A.
By AZBravoFan
November 21, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
Before anyone gets excited about Oliver Perez, how about taking a look a his numbers when he’s not pitching against the Braves. If I recall he shut them down nearly every time and was pretty mediocre against everyone else.
By Dixie Dawg
November 21, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this
Wren said that Johnson is a natural shortstop in the chat yesterday. There’s a viable option with Prado playing 2nd. I know some people frown on that but, to me, it would make the most sense. But, it will still suck to have to cough up Escobar. He has a lot of promise. I love his arm.
By ncscoots
November 21, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this
Shaun, of course I read the entire Posnanski blurb. What you see as the point of the article is colored by your position as purveyor of all that is sabermetric. I see it as a guy saying that he can’t stop himself from thinking in three-stat terms, even when he knows better than to do so.
If it had been just another redundant treatise on the value of metrics other than AVG-HR-RBI, I probably WOULDN’T have read it all. I already have that information. Posnanki, instead, wrote an entertaining and insightful piece. Not always a given with him.
By Nate
November 21, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this
We need a left field announcement.
By Lee in S GA
November 21, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this
Shaun
I will say since coming on this blog for around 1 1/2 years now, I have broaden my philosophy on this outlook of hr’s, rbi’s and avg. determining the complete package so-to-say of a player. That’s mainly because of reading into posts like yours and other certain bloggers that support statistical evidence to back this up. In other words, I do feel a little more educated about an overall player’s performance and contributions to a team.
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this
I believe if you knew my actual credentials and level of responsibility it would stagger you. Anders
Sixteen words. Sixteen words that will live in infamy. Absolutely priceless. Spectacular.
Actually, this would be a great, albeit unwieldy, title for either a blog or an indie film.
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this
A FAN: Regarding your 12:44 p.m. post about Hampton’s agent, Mark Rodgers. We wrote that here two weeks ago during the GM meetings, when I talked to Mark about Mike’s situation. Just wants a straight one-year deal, no incentives, no option year, and he’d like to sign with a team closer to Arizona (reg season and/or spring-training home there) because he’s going through a divorce that will be finalized in January, and his kids will be in Arizona. He’d like to be able to see them more frequently, by being a shorter flight away during the season and being close during spring training
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan, just saw your 11:19 a.m. post and laughed my butt off.
By Dixie Dawg
November 21, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this
DOB I admire you for the walking encyclopedia of baseball knowledge that you are. No, that’s not sarcasm. You do a damn good job.
By Dixie Dawg
November 21, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this
bout time for a fresh blog, ain’t it?
By steve (balt)
November 21, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this
Just a few thoughts:
Towers is waiting to see if Sabathia signs with the Yanks. What if Lowe and Burnett sign with Boston and Toronto and CC spurns the Yankees?
Who is left? I think even if CC signs with the Yanks and Lowe and Burnett go elsewhere the Yanks want two pitchers. Mussina is now gone and I suspect the Yankees became very disappointed with Andy Pettitte.
Seems to me the Braves are trying to trade Yunel Escobar re of what deal he is in. Did he wear out his welcome? There are plenty of options in the market place.
I would love to see Khalil Greene out of Petco. Yet my O’s wouldnt trade Garrett Olsen for him (which I agree with since we need starters so bad). I suspect a patient sort will get Greene for almost nothing.
By geauxbraves2000
November 21, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this
The RBI, obviously, has a better press agent Nolie
That’s because the RBI is represented by Scott Boras. :)
Geaux Braves!!
By Dixie Dawg
November 21, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this
DOB we have a little in common when it comes to McMurtry. You like James’ music, I like his dad Larry’s novels.
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this
Everyone should keep in mind that Dec. 1 is the last day for teams to offer arbitration to their free agents. So teams interested in a certain free agent won’t sign him before then if there’s any question whatsoever about whether the free agent’s current team (his 2008 team) is going to offer arbitration.
Take Renteria, for instance. It’d doubtful the Tigers would offer him arbitration, since they declined his option for 2009. But if a team signed Renteria before Dec. 1, they’d have to give up a draft pick since Edgar is a Type A free agent. The Tigers would get a draft pick and a supplemental pick if he’s signed before Dec. 1.
But not if he’s signed after Dec. 1 and they don’t offer him arbitration.
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this
Among relevant free-agent pitchers who are Type-A class guys: Sheets, Penny, Wolf, O. Perez, Randy Johnson….
No reason for teams to sign them before Dec. 1, and plenty of reason not to sign them before then.
By GermanBravesFan
November 21, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this
“Sixteen words. Sixteen words that will live in infamy. Absolutely priceless. Spectacular.”
One word: PRICELESS!!!
By Joe M.
November 21, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
CBSSports:
“The Padres’ talks with Atlanta, the one approved team that showed the most interest in a deal, broke off last week after San Diego pulled back from a deal the Braves thought was almost done. Braves officials were said to be angered by the pullback, enough so that they would much prefer to fill their pitching needs elsewhere, if possible.”
By john
November 21, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this
hey DOB…. If Tyler Flowers is so great, what are the Braves going to do with him when he comes to the majors? I mean they aren’t going to sit McCann…..
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this
ugacpa: Yes, you will definitely see more of the Braves’ top prospects in Triple-A now that the team’s going to be in Gwinnett, instead of in Richmond.
Braves want the ones who could be ready to help the big club to be there at Gwinnett, especially pitchers, since they could literally get them to Turner Field in an hour if there’s an injury on game day in batting practice or something, or if someone gets hurt in a Braves game one night, they won’t have to scramble to get them from Richmond to Atlanta, if the Triple-A and major league teams are at both at home. Plus, if Braves are on the road, there are many, many more direct flights out of Atlanta that a Gwinnett player can catch to get wherever the Braves are playing, rather than taking connecting flights from Richmond through wherever.
It’s going to be a very convenient thing, and an advantage for the Braves on the field, having a Triple-A team so close.
By Dixie Dawg
November 21, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this
Man, I was just reading back over the last few hours of blogs. It can get down-right violent in here! It’s just an opinion forum, why do some people get so sensitive? Aren’t we in here to learn and share our knowlege? No One person should be bullied or cursed at. That’s just showing immaturity and low-classness. Now, back to Braves talk.
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
Anyone see Teixeira on the sidelines at the Georgia Tech game last night? He was with Red Sox free-agent catcher Jason Varitek, another former Tech player.
So who do you think is more likely to be with Boston in 2009, Tech’s Tex or Tek? I think it’s where Tex will end up.
By chuckw/deadjournalist
November 21, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
everyone around here is as antsy for braves transactions as a day-old watermelon after a picnic over a fire-ant bed …
By rammerjammer
November 21, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
Joe M., thanks for that nugget from CBS. Taken together with Frank’s Q and A yesterday, perhaps it is our train that has left San Diego’s station.
By Luther
November 21, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this
Just wondering if anyone else had checked out the G N’R album streaming free on myspace? I listened to it straight through and really liked it. I will qualify that with the fact that they were my favorite band as a kid and there is no way I am looking at it objectively. That said, there are surely some songs where Axel shows he has a really great voice for rock n roll. Stinson on the bass throughout for all Replacements fans.
I think Ander’s quote should be the long talked abou blog t-shirt.
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this
John, these situations arise all the time with major league clubs, one talented youngster seemingly blocked at the major league level by an accomplished player.
And you know what? They are good problems to have. But Tyler hasn’t played above A-ball yet, other than Fall League, which you could certainly argue is playing six or so weeks above A-ball level.
By the time he’s ready for the majors, the Braves will either A. trade him to fill another need, B. move him to another position, or C. trade or move McCann to another position.
It’s far too early to know what they’ll do. Simply impossible to know, and pointless to speculate since the situations often resolve themselves when a player doesn’t develop as planned, or someone gets hurt, or a too-good-to-turn-down trade comes along, etc.
But If forced to speculate, I’d say that C. is less likely that A. or B.
By Joe M. (Just say no to Oliver Perez)
November 21, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this
Let it be known that the “Joe M.” posting about Escobar’s “spunk” at November 20, 2008 3:47 PM was not me. Posers.
Bubdylan, just saw your 11:19 a.m. post and laughed my butt off.
What 11:19 AM post on this blog?
By Lew
November 21, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this
BA-Go VORP yourself, you Park Adjusted WHIP. If you don’t understand the point I was making, then it’s not me that’s dumb. Don’t recall you posting much that was all that insightful, either.
By Dixie Dawg
November 21, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this
whew! such hostilities…
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 21, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this
DOB But If forced to speculate, I’d say that C. is less likely that A. or B.
A lot less likely…
By TennesseePaul
November 21, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this
13 million dollars. Forever in the studio. And what do we get? Some weird amalgam of Britney Spears, Marilyn Manson and G’N’R.
Still though, I appreciate the guitar work on the solos.
By Dixie Dawg
November 21, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this
By TennesseePaul
November 21, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this
But track 3 sounds almost identical to the vampire musical Jason Segel put on in Forgetting Sarah Marshall
By richbrave
November 21, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this
BA:
Are you being naughty again.? Sir LEW seems upset at your take. Guess I’m crazy for saying the BRAVES should go after BURNETT hard, YANKEES be damned, and pay the going rate, whatever it is. Still say a signing would put BRAVES in the drivers seat to get PEAVY. Call me crazy, everyone else did - except one.
By Joe M. (Just say no to Oliver Perez)
November 21, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this
Let it be known that Oliver Perez is the only player the Braves could sign that would drive me away from the team.
As painfully unexciting, injury-prone, mediocre and/or old as Randy Wolf, Randy Johnson, Ben Sheets and some other free agents from the crop the Braves will be picking through after inevitably failing to sign Burnett or Lowe, at least they’re not Oliver Perez; perhaps the only person, including Juan Rivera, whom the Braves could sign and make me want to pay attention to them less in 2009.
I truly pity the team that gets suckered by Boras into giving sucky Perez a multi-year contract with an annual eight-figure salary.
By Nate
November 21, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this
Since the Braves weren’t able to land Peavy, or make any other “quick strike,” is it safe to say there probably won’t be any real movement now until after Dec. 1?
By Wayne
November 21, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this
Towers is on XM right now.
By Wayne
November 21, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this
I really think Towers is full of it…
By Efrim
November 21, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this
Joe M.
I truly pity the team that gets suckered by Boras into giving sucky Perez a multi-year contract with an annual eight-figure salary.
The team that signs Jon Garland to a long term deal worth 10 million dollars annually should be the team you should feel sorry for. Garland has given up an average of 234 hits a year the last three years. At least Perez misses bats.
By Billy
November 21, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this
I believe if you knew my actual credentials and level of responsibility it would stagger you. Anders
Anders, don’t let having the keys to the high school go to your head. I always wondered how you guys keep the hallway floors so shiny?
By Lew
November 21, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this
richbrave-I’m not upset. I just like telling people to go VORP themselves. It brings me untold joy and makes me feel intellectually superior, can’t you tell?
He thinks I’m dumb (apparently on a continual basis) because I had the temerity to doubt that Yunel was a part of a proposed Peavy player package (don’t you just love the alliteration?). Of course, unless Frank Wren walked up to him and told him in confidence (which had it happened, then he broke the confidence) that Yunel was indeed included, then he knows nothing more than I do and whatever opinion he has is based on rumor and supposition.
Now maybe Yunel was or maybe he wasn’t included in the proposed deal. However, until and unless the trade takes place and Yunel becomes a Padre (and maybe not even then), then I guess we’ll never know for sure, cause the principles aren’t talking and anyone who is doesn’t know anything for certain.
Been hearing for a couple years now that we’re getting Coco Crisp. How has that rumor worked out?
By Bay Area Steve
November 21, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this
Joe M,
it was 11:19 last night.
And it was hilarious.
Even my lazy, drunken behind had to say so last night, in between comparing scoots to Willy Tavarez.
By Wayne
November 21, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this
Come on Billy, don’t go dissin our buddy Anders, cause its hard working the drive thru at the Burger Queen!
By JasonInFL
November 21, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this
Wayne, how Towers mentioned the Braves?
By Joe M. (Just say no to Oliver Perez)
November 21, 2008 5:23 PM | Link to this
The team that signs Jon Garland to a long term deal worth 10 million dollars annually…
But see, that is not going to happen. Even in this market for pitching.
Some dumba** team IS going to give Oliver frickin’ Perez a multi-year, 10+ (likely 12+) million-per-year deal.
By Moby Grape
November 21, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this
But see, that is not going to happen. Even in this market for pitching.Joe M
I’d be almost willing to bet that it does happen.
By used cars
November 21, 2008 5:37 PM | Link to this
Dave, Are there any rumblings of other pitchers that could be had. Not stolen, but that were available for fair market. Would we be better served to try to pick up a young, inexpensive stud (I sound like Demi Moore don’t I) and then a less espensive guy to fill like Kyle Lohse and then take on a bigger salary at short and leftfield….I would rather see Escobar and one prospect go for someone like Liriano, Cain or Verlander..than ship 4 or 5 guys for Peavy and ink a high dollar shortstop
By used cars
November 21, 2008 5:42 PM | Link to this
Also, Dave as fellow Jayhawk basketball fan, I thought you would get a kick out of this. ESPN replayed the championship game on Classic the other night, fairly late for 8-7 parents of 2. But I faithfully stayed up to make sure it ended the same way (after losing to Syracuse on similar circumstances, I think you know why). The game gets toward the end, and i stay up so I can see the inbounds steal and 3 that got the game close in the last 2 minutes, because I somehow missed that moment (addicted channel surfer) in April. You guessed, somehow I was flipping around the channels and go back to the game to see that it’s coming out of a timeout after that play. Just like in April, they never replayed those precious seconds where the game turned, so I missed it again. What’s the most important moment that you guys have missed because of channel surfing?
By TennesseePaul
November 21, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this
Been hearing for a couple years now that we’re getting Coco Crisp. How has that rumor worked out?
Exactly as I had hoped!
RICHBRAVE: I get what you are attempting to say in the Burnett thing, but I think that would only work if one were to believe the presuppositions of Kevin Towers. That is to say, that Peavy would veto a trade to the Braves due to lack of competitiveness. I don’t think he would. He may perfer some other team over the Braves, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he’d perfer playing for the sure-to-lose-bad Padres over his childhood favorite Braves, who might actually have a chance to have a winning season, if not a ticket to the post season.
Aside from that, some of the dollar figures you tossed out there exceed even what CC is rumored to be offered. So then, why offer AJ more than CC? Why not just take those gobs of money and throw them at CC?
None of it will happen though. If the Braves aren’t willing to pay $23 million annually for CC, they certainly aren’t going to be willing to pay $25 million for the lesser AJ Burnett. And rightly so.
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 5:51 PM | Link to this
Now maybe Yunel was or maybe he wasn’t included in the proposed deal. However, until and unless the trade takes place and Yunel becomes a Padre (and maybe not even then), then I guess we’ll never know for sure, cause the principles aren’t talking and anyone who is doesn’t know anything for certain.Lew
No, but if Escobar wasn’t involved in the discussions, don’t you think a Braves official might tell someone in the media, on or off the record, that he was not? Especially given how Yunel responded to even being mentioned as a possible tradable guy by Bowman late in the season (Yunel wasn’t happy, got stressed out about it, asked “why me?” etc.)
I mean, they’ve made it known that Hanson isn’t going to be traded, so why wouldn’t they say Escobar wasn’t involved in the talks, or at least that it was highly unlikely he’d be traded, or something?
And why would Frank even acknowledge in that chat yesterday that Furcal might be considered (or however he answered), when he made the comment about putting the cart before the horse?
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 5:53 PM | Link to this
Luther, I agree: that quote is the absolute perfect slogan for the would-be T-shirt.
By nolie
November 21, 2008 5:54 PM | Link to this
JAYSON STARK
*Want a nominee for the most hotly pursued free agent under the radar? How about Raul Ibanez? He’ll turn 37 in June, but we’ve counted at least a dozen teams that have expressed some degree of interest in him. That group:
Mets, Phillies, Cubs, Cardinals, Nationals, Braves, Royals, Rays, Blue Jays, Rangers (if they can’t re-sign Milton Bradley), Angels (if Teixeira, Juan Rivera and Garret Anderson all go elsewhere) and Ibanez’s old team, the Mariners.
The Mets, Cubs, Cardinals, Braves and Mariners have him at the top of their position-player shopping lists. He won’t be looking for any eight-year deals. And when we asked an official of one team what makes Ibanez so attractive, he gushed: “Character. Proven run producer. In better shape than a lot of 25-year-olds. And he’ll play hard every day, every game, every second he has the uniform on.”*
By CameronC.
November 21, 2008 5:54 PM | Link to this
I just got Sirius Radio[with the best of XM] if anyone else has it, does any of the channels have anything to do with baseball? because i cant find any/
By An Odds Game
November 21, 2008 6:07 PM | Link to this
DOB
RE: Prado.
My point exactly. Where Yahoo & other sources get their sources is a great question. I know you get a lot of info straight from players, the braves front office, or Wren himself.
That’s why most of my attention is here. The info is more accurate.
Thanks for all that you do.
By Bay Area Steve
November 21, 2008 6:13 PM | Link to this
Anybody know where I can find who we left unprotected for the Rule 5 draft, and which players are out of options, once spring arrives?
Coach, I’m not real worried about Thorman.
By AdirondackDave
November 21, 2008 6:14 PM | Link to this
Wayne — What did Towers say on XM? Thanks.
By Wayne
November 21, 2008 6:21 PM | Link to this
AdirondackDave A lot of bs, that amounted to nothing. Mentioned that they are only really talking with the Cubs, and something about not having to trade Peavy (what was that about the train leaving the station).
Basically, a load of bull. Was making lots of excuses about the Hoffman boo boo.
He’s probably in a tough spot, what with ownership giving him marching orders that might be contrary to what a normal GM would do.
By Chuck James is solid until the 6th!! (Formerly Steve-O)
November 21, 2008 6:43 PM | Link to this
I like Ibanez 2-$20 Mill 3rd Yr Option…
Again everyone, the Cubs don’t HAVE what it takes to get Peavy and yes “The train left the station.” That’s why Towers is an idiot GM, one of the worst, easily. He does’nt know how to bluff and play his cards tight like Wren. What I’m trying to say is Cubs will need four teams, never happening. Braves will get it done..BE PATIENT!!!! I like Fookie at 3yr-$40 mill, I think he’d take it to be back home with his “father figure” and back where he belongs. I think he’ll be OK. If not Renteria will be a definite. You know he’ll put up .325/.360 15HR/70RBI 35-40 DB’s and solid D not great. Renteria is the safest option but Furcal gives you the speed, leadoff and D. The playoffs he jus came back after months, his D was off after full rest and if Fookie stays healthy, he will be AMAZING, again he’s still only 31…Big risk but the reward could be amazing and I think he’d take even 3YR/$35 mill to come back home…
By Joe M. (Just say no to Oliver Perez)
November 21, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this
More Peavy:
As for Atlanta, Towers said it appears as if talks are dead. Towers is believed to covet shortstop Yunel Escobar, the centerpiece of a proposed package, but he doesn’t think the Padres would be receiving enough in return for a former Cy Young Award winner signed at an affordable price.
“I take it they’re out,” Towers said. “They’re aggressively pursuing free agents, so I’d consider them out until I hear otherwise. We certainly had more substantial conversations with them. We pretty much went over all the players they have, and they know what we would do. As of now, I’m sure they’re not focused on us, and we’re not focused on them. But I wouldn’t be surprised if we revisited talks.”
By Efrim
November 21, 2008 6:50 PM | Link to this
Towers on Peavy trade talks:
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/11/21/sports/padres/z038ff4ad868d76398825750700837655.txt
As for Atlanta, Towers said it appears as if talks are dead. Towers is believed to covet shortstop Yunel Escobar, the centerpiece of a proposed package, but he doesn’t think the Padres would be receiving enough in return for a former Cy Young Award winner signed at an affordable price.
“I take it they’re out,” Towers said. “They’re aggressively pursuing free agents, so I’d consider them out until I hear otherwise. We certainly had more substantial conversations with them. We pretty much went over all the players they have, and they know what we would do. As of now, I’m sure they’re not focused on us, and we’re not focused on them. But I wouldn’t be surprised if we revisited talks.”
By AdirondackDave
November 21, 2008 6:51 PM | Link to this
Wayne — Thanks for the report on Towers. The guy sounds like he’s between a rock and a hard place. I like to see Frank put in a bid on CC or Burnett and say so publicly. It might help get Towers off the dime. I know the Yanks have put in something like a 23M/per bid for CC but what’s to be lost by putting in a 19-21M/per bid for him? He may not be thrilled about the idea of going to the Bronx zoo. I wouldn’t and I’m only a couple hundred miles north of the new park.
By Wayne
November 21, 2008 7:03 PM | Link to this
A-Dave As much as I have loved my visits to NYC, I would think that an adjusted salary offer of 20 mil per season to go to an affordable city like Atlanta might be workable.
Like you say, it wouldn’t hurt. Towers to me comes off as an arrogant so and so.
Somebody needs to remind him of what happened to the Twins in the 2007 Johan Santana debacle.
Big Game Saturday coming up. Choose your poison!
By David O'Brien
November 21, 2008 7:25 PM | Link to this
Wayne, I’ll take Texas Tech, on the road, against the Sooners. That’s how much respect I have for the Red Raiders this year. Offense is all but unstoppable, and defense ain’t bad, either. I really think whoever wins the Big 12 championship will win the national title.
By TennesseePaul
November 21, 2008 7:29 PM | Link to this
Gammons on Brad Penny:
Brad Penny is so serious about his conditioning that, while he is off touring the land of chocolate and beer in Germany, he has taken the trainer he hired from Athletes’ Performance Institute with him to carry his lugage and souvenirs.
By Lew
November 21, 2008 7:34 PM | Link to this
DOB-Logic may dictate that Yunel WAS included, but since all we have is rumors, then no one knows for sure, do they? It’s all conjecture to me and holds as much weight as do some of the more absurd trade projections we see on numerous sites-none of which happen. Until Wren steps up and tells us exactly who was included, or actually consummates a trade it is rumor, conjecture or speculation and nothing else.
By Steve from OH
November 21, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this
JoeM, I’ll bet that Garland gets that kind of a deal (name value!). My money is on the Giants, Dodgers or Mets giving it to him, with the Astros as a dark horse.
I wouldn’t be too fired up if we signed Perez as our second starter (assuming we either get Peavy, Lowe or Burnett first), but if the money is equal, I’d rather try to sign Sheets (injury history and all, I know). If Perez is our only offseason acquisition, then I would be pretty ticked. But I agree with Efrim, he’s better that Garland, at least.
The real question, to me, is who our LF bat is going to be. We really need a good LF bat.
By MattyRoss
November 21, 2008 7:40 PM | Link to this
DOB - No one from that conference will be able to touch Florida. Not to sound like a douche, but it doesn’t even seem close right now. If I had to take Florida vs. the Field right now, I would. Comfortably. Not that you asked…but hey, what the hell?
By BravesFanInRockies
November 21, 2008 7:41 PM | Link to this
Man, Lew, you’re a tough audience!
By BravesFanInRockies
November 21, 2008 7:42 PM | Link to this
Ever think of a career as a trial lawyer?
By AdirondackDave
November 21, 2008 7:44 PM | Link to this
Wayne — Yes, it’s hard to believe Towers has been a successful major league GM if this is the way he typically handles these situations. Actually when you think about it, gettiing CC for around 20m would allow the Braves to keep Escobar and the other guys. For me, that’s a no brainer. What a coup it would be for Wren if he could reel in CC AND Peavy. A rotation of CC, Jake, Jair, Hudson, and Hanson. Now that would be the Braves of the 90s and then some! A rotation for the ages…
By Couch Tater
November 21, 2008 7:54 PM | Link to this
Towers comes off as an arrogant so and so.
Yeah, but guess who was drafted #13 by the Braves in 1981.
By Lew
November 21, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this
BravesFanINRockies-No I’m not tough, I just refuse to acknowledge what isn’t known for sure, that’s all. When the powers that be in this process decide to tell DOB and he reports it then I will believe it. I see no reason I should give all this speculation credence.
I’ve been here for four years now and during that time I’ve seen all kinds of useless supposition and totally off the wall trade scenarios. It’s become almost legendary to have someone propose trading Thorman (were he still a Brave), Lillibridge, Reyes, Morton, Boyer, Prado and four of five low A players for Sabbathia-or Ryan Freel.
Now maybe including Yunel in a deal for Peavy makes sense (I’d be real surprised if someone as good as him was NOT included), but it doesn’t mean that speculation has been correct. That’s all I’m saying. Until Peavy becomes a Brave, I believe nothing and take no rumor for anything more than it is-a rumor. I fail to see why this posture is considered dumb or even worthy of anyone’s notice. Quite honestly, WTF does it matter who was or wasn’t included in the proposal if nothing has come of it?
By AdirondackDave
November 21, 2008 7:58 PM | Link to this
Coach Tater — I’ll bite, who was drafter #13 in 1981 by the Braves?
By Lew
November 21, 2008 7:58 PM | Link to this
BravesFanInRockies-Nah, I’m not a lawyerly type. I am able to argue both sides of an argument, though and do upon occasion just for the VORP of it. Keeps life interesting during what can be the most boring of seasons for a baseball fan.
By JimD
November 21, 2008 8:02 PM | Link to this
*Yeah, but guess who was drafted #13 by the Braves in 1981. * Couch Tater
Technically Towers wasn’t drafted #13, he was drafted in the 13th rough - player #322.