AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2008 > November > 18 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USIs the Peavy thing over? We think not
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Hello, it’s good to be back and all that. Froze my butt off watching my Jayhawks get their butts whipped by Texas at Lawrence, but the trip was worthwhile because I saw my brother’s family, spent time with old friends, and got my fix of Gates BBQ in Kansas City.
Now, where were we?
Oh, yes, the Jake Peavy saga. So, anything happen while I was out of town? (Actually, I got the call from Frank Wren about the Braves bailing out on the Peavy deal on Friday afternoon as I stood in a Blockbuster video store in K.C., getting movies for my nephew who just had ACL knee surgery.)
Anyway, a lot of team officials and agents I spoke with out at the GM meetings two weeks ago thought that Peavy would be the first domino to fall in the offseason game pitching musical chairs.
Wrong.
Looks like the first to fall is Ryan Dempster, about to re-up with the Cubs for four years at about $13 mill per.
This development today coming just after the Yankees made their two huge offers, to C.C. Sabathia (six years and a cool $140 million, give or take a few mill) and A.J. Burnett (five years, $80 million, though a Yankees official has disputed that figure; I’m guessing it was probably more like four years an an option. But Boston is also after Burnett, so it’s probably only a matter of time until there is a five-year offer on the table if there isn’t now.)
Anyway, as you can see, the price of front-line pitching ain’t getting any cheaper, folks. In fact, this top-tier free-agent spending might be the only place in America that doesn’t seem to be affected by the real-world economic meltdown.
Anyway, with Dempster off the market, and Sabathia never in the Braves’ price range, and Burnett eyeing a five-year, $16 mill-per-season offer from the Yankees, it looks like the Braves’ best shot at landing a No. 1-caliber starting pitcher might be this right-hander that payroll-purging San Diego is offering.
Dude named Peavy.
No, but seriously….
Since Matt Cain is not available (sorry, folks) and neither, probably, is Zack Greinke (sorry again, folks), and since Derek Lowe’s represented by Scott Boras and thus not likely to sign for, oh, at least a month or two, and with the Yankees looking for at least two starters and other big-market teams including the Dodgers, Mets and Angels looking for at least one, you can see where the free-agent market might not be the easiest place for a team with any sort of payroll restrictions to fill its needs.
Which is why Peavy made the most sense for the Braves, and still does, if you ask me. And no, I don’t believe that the Braves have shut the door on this potential blockbuster.
And no, Peavy has not told friends he doesn’t want to pitch for the Braves. He and his agent gave the Padres a list of five teams for which Jake would considering waiving his no-trade clause in a potential deal, and since they made that list nothing has changed about the city of Atlanta, its location in proximity to Peavy’s native Alabama, or its franchise and its chances, whatever they might be, of contending for a playoff spot next season.
Of course, one other team on that list is the Chicago Cubs, who I’m figuring would be less inclined, not more, to sweeten their original offer for Peavy, now that Dempster’s back in the fold.
And the Yankees? Folks, with the money they have to throw around, do you really think there’s a good chance that a. They would give up their best young pitchers in a deal for Peavy, and b. that Peavy would reverse course and suddenly decide that, hey, living in Gotham for half the year might not be so bad after all? Come on.
Yes, to me a Braves-Padres deal still just makes too much sense for it not to happen.
And by the way, those of you who are happy the Braves didn’t trade Yunel Escobar to San Diego for Peavy, don’t get too excited. As much as I like Yunel and believe he might become a very good to great all-around major league shortstop, I also know that if the Braves were willing to trade him for Peavy, there’s probably a good chance his name will or already has come up in another trade proposal this winter.
One way or another, I think the Braves will deal either Escobar or Kelly Johnson in a trade to fill one of their primary needs, whether that’s for a starting pitcher or to get a power-hitting outfielder like Ryan Ludwick.
Once the anger and/or frustration between Braves and Padres officials simmers a bit and cooler heads prevail, and once Padres GM Kevin Towers realizes that he can’t keep asking the salesman to keep adding accessories after the price for the car has already been agreed upon (just easing to offseason analogy mode; stick with me folks, just got back from a brief vacation), then I do believe this deal can and probably will still get done.
As I said, just makes too much sense for both teams. Braves need an ace, and will have to outbid the Yankees and others for a pitcher comparable to Peavy, who’s going to get paid $63 mill over the next four seasons or $81 mill for the next five, depending on whether his option is exercised.
You want Dempster at $13 mill per season for four years, or A.J. Burnett (check out his year-by-year innings totals) at $16 mill per season for five years, or the 27-year-old 2007 NL Cy Young Award winner, Peavy, at just under $16 mill per season for four years or just over $16 mill per season for five.
Yes, you have to give up some very good talent, including Escobar, to get Peavy, but you’re going to pay him $1 mill less over five seasons than what Burnett could make if he takes that offer from the Yankees (and that’s just a first offer, it might go higher when other teams bid for A.J.).
Just call up their stats and tell me which pitcher you want at the top of your rotation over the next five seasons. And no, I don’t mean compare their stats simply from this season. At least look back two or three years to get a representative sample of their work.
By the way, Peavy held batters to a .229 average this season, including .194 by right-handers (second in the NL) and .184 by all hitters with runners in scoring position (third in the league). Peavy’s 8.6 strikeouts per nine innings ranked fourth in the NL this season, just ahead of Dan haren (8.58), and this wasn’t one of Peavy’s best seasons.
I see a lot of names thrown about here of alternatives that would cost the Braves a lot less, including even the likes of Brad Penny. Nevermind that the Dodgers didn’t want him back after the way he handled things this year. Do you people realize he’s pitched 200 innings just once in the past seven seasons, and never struck out 150 in that span?
That he had a 6.27 ERA this season, and that left-handers batted .328 against him, and that all hitters batted an unsightly .375 against with runners on base, worst among NL starters? Please. Can we never bring that option up again this winter?
As for Lowe: Hey, I’m with you. Many Braves came to me at the end of the season and said he’s the guy they hoped the Braves would pursue hardest (this was before any of them knew Peavy would be available).
But as I mentioned, he’s repped by Scott Boras. Now, Wren and Boras actually have a good relationship, nothing like John Schuerholz and Boras. But can the Braves wait around for a month or more and hope that they land Lowe, while most of the other top-of-rotation starters available start to get signed or traded?
Regarding Lowe. I hear a lot of folks here talk about how dependable he is (and they’re right, he doesn’t go on the DL, doesn’t miss starts) and what a horse he is.
That’s fine. But do you realize how much more dominant Peavy is than Lowe? In the past five seasons, Lowe is 68-60 with a 3.91 ERA, .264 opponents’ average and 668 strikeouts with 285 walks in 1,033-1/3 innings, while being provided with 5.4 support runs per nine innings pitched.
In that same period, Peavy is 68-43 with a 2.92 ERA, .225 opponents’ average and 1,007 strikeouts with 290 walks in 960-2/3 innings, while getting 4.97 support runs per nine innings.
In that period Peavy had an ERA that was a full run lower, and got run support a half-run lower per nine innings pitched, yet had the same number of wins and 339 more strikeouts with only five more walks in 73 fewer innings, most of the innings difference coming this year as a result of Peavy’s month on the DL.
Their numbers really aren’t even close. Peavy’s a different level of pitcher, but Lowe, who’s 35 (eight years older than Peavy), will likely get a salary comparable to Peavy’s on average over the next three or four years via free agency.
Diversions: Saw Role Models and laughed out loud at least a half-dozen times, always a good sign. Really is a hilarious movie. That made it two very good ones in a week for us, including RocknRolla…. The Shield is getting ridiculously tense and great leading up the series finale. I have no idea what’s gonna happen to my man Vic Mackey, but I’m thinking it’s probably not going to be pleasant…. Meanwhile, Sons of Anarchy, Prison Break and Entourage all are building toward much-anticipated finales. Great time to have a DVR, I tell you what. Particularly with college hoops starting up. Gotta watch games live, at least I do. Can any of you watch a game after the fact? Me, I’ve got a hard time doing that.
A tune: Nobody sings this one like Johnny, but the Whiskeytown cover on the second disc of their expanded Strangers Almanac is mighty fine.
”I STILL MISS SOMEONE” by Johnny Cash
At my door the leaves are falling
A cold, wild wind has come
Sweathearts walk by together
And I still miss someone
I go out on a party
And look for a little fun
But I find a darkened corner
because I still miss someone
Oh, no I never got over those blue eyes
I see them everywhere
I miss those arms that held me
When all the love was there
I wonder if she’s sorry
For leaving what we’d begun
There’s someone for me somewhere
And I still miss someone
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Comments
By Patrick
November 18, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this
DOB,
Any comments about the performances of Flowers and Hanson yesterday??
By Nocturnal Owl
November 18, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this
Lets continue the Peavy madness! Thanks for new Blog!!!
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 18, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
Peterbilt
Peterbilt
By James
November 18, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
I think Brad Penny is still a smart sign if he’s willing to accept one year contract with a optional second year.
He will not be an inning eater but with our pitching rotation, it’s a risk worth taking.
I definitely agree with you on Peavy situation but I think you are way to optimistic. Let’s look at the Santana trade. Boston and Yankees fought harder and look who got him in the end? I feel like Houston or someone might surprise us in the end.
By Andy K.
November 18, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this
DOB:, I agree with you that a Peavy deal will get done. Also, what do you think the chances are of, (If Esco is traded) Rafael Furcal returning? MLB Trade rumors reported the Furcal was shocked yet very excited when he was told by his agent that the Braves have interest? I think this could be a good pick-up, as it would bring a crowd pleaser, and an all-around good player back.
By Ace
November 18, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this
Glad you’re back, DOB.
I’m with you on Peavy. Seems like the Padres are in danger of overplaying their hand here. I’m glad Wren called their bluff.
By RRR
November 18, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
I, too, believe there is still a chance of landing Jake. The thing is, the Pad’s ARE asking for too much. They must be demanding one of our young “untouchables”, and who could blame them. The rest of the projected package after Yunel is NOT very good if you include Jo Jo and Morton. OB: do you know why the talks came to an end? Was there a particular untouchable they demanded such as Hanson or Flowers?
By Yes Sir
November 18, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
DOB, I see things exactly the same way you do, especially the main theme: Peavy is too good to turn down right now. We have the means to get him, and we absolutely should go do it.
By SteveInRaleigh
November 18, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
I think the Padres were hoping the Yankees would snatch up all the free-agent pitchers and leave ATL and the Cubs at the dance with not partners, thus driving the price for Peavy up. While this did sort-of happen, the Cubs still managed to snag an ex-girlfriend to dance with and it seems like no one gained any advantage and the urgency for both teams to move on this trade has increased. Who budges first?
By RRR
November 18, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
The Pads ARE demanding too much though. Do you know what player(s) we refused to give up for Jake? After all, Morton and Jo Jo are NOT desirable if we are honest.
By Bravestillidie
November 18, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this
Welcome back Dave. Sorry bout the game but glad you had a good trip. And also a big thanks to Carroll Rogers for giving us some bloggage over the weekend. It will be interesting to see where all of this goes, but with the re-signing of Dempster, I think our best chance to land a decent free agent starter is now off the books. Yikes.
BTID
By David O'Brien
November 18, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this
Patrick, I ran out of time, got to get to office for yet another training class. Got a few other topics to hit on later here in the comments, including Hanson and Flowers and conversation today with Ohman, who’s gonna decide around winter meetings or so. Got a solid offer from Braves and he’s waiting for offers from about 8-10 other teams that have indicated they would make offers.
By Dan
November 18, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this
Any idea who the Padres are asking for that caused the negotiations to break down? What is the “hold up”?
By chris from md
November 18, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this
I firmly believe that they sticking point is pitching. When Locke entered into the discussion, the Braves drew the line. The Braves are willing to sacrifice minor league talent but not stellar pitching. And that’s what the Pads want.
Dave, are the Braves more vulnerable not that their starting pitching options are limited?
Also, who besides Lerew is out of options?
Thx,
Chris from MD
By AGTfan
November 18, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this
I don’t need any selling on Peavy. I know he’s the real deal. Towers needs to come back down to earth. He can’t create a bidding war when Peavy has tied his hands on what teams he might waive his no-trade clause. He has to accept that the last offer he got from the Braves is the best he’s going to find. Maybe the Braves can add a tiny bit of sugar to the offer, but now much. I’d go for a youth movement next year before I’d sell the farm.
By Voice of Reason
November 18, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this
The Braves need Peavy bad. Frank Wren needs to get this thing done. I don’t care if we have to give up Hanson or Heyward or Chipper or McCann or all of them. We need Peavy period.
By cphizzle
November 18, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this
DOB: whats the latest on the japanese pithcer that the braves were looking, in my opinion could fill a very important role with all the other free agents seein dollar signs from the yankees
By Amazin
November 18, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this
dob is back and has his Peavy pom poms just shakin away!! “Gimme a P!” “Gimme a E!” “Gime a A!” People here will commit harm to themselves if the Braves don’t get Peavy. They’ve been setup to believe that Jake Peavy will save their team and there are no no no other options available for the poor Bravos. “Gimme a V!” “Gimme a Y!”
By ccrider
November 18, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this
Dave, I agree with you on the Peavy deal getting done. I don’t understand why instead of Morton OR Reyes, Frank Wren didn’t just include Reyes as the 5 piece. Towers could then say they got 2 major league ready pitchers, a potential all star SS, a High end CF prospect and bullpen help. Reyes may yet prove to be a average major league pitcher, but it would keep our top pitching prospects with higher ceilings out of the deal. DO you think the Braves might go after Randy Johnson for 1 year while udson’s out?
By McFlowwers in '09
November 18, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the new blog, chief
By Cliff
November 18, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
Burnette is not as good as Peavy, factoring for injuray / unavailability. But, the Braves can’t replace Yunel with anybody BETTER THAN the combo of Infante and Lillibridge for less than 9 million for 5 years.
So, Burnette at 16 plus Yunel at 5 Mill average over the next 5 years (assuming good Yunel and with that Yunel number starting at 400 K and going up over time)is WAY less than Peavy and “replacement shortstop”. And if “replacement shortstop” is a superior shortstop (like Furcal, who has a BACK INJURY) then the 9 per year average won’t work. Furcal has been offered 13 for 3 years already.
Peavy has to be 5 million better than the “alternative pitcher” to justify moving Yunel for him.
By DAP
November 18, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
robdowg08 I think Evan Longoria should have been AL MVP and Ryan Howard NL MVP. Both led their teams to the World Series.
but the MVP voting happend before the playoffs started, so how can that have an effect on the MVP? it doesnt, and it shouldnt.
i heard buster olney ( im pretty sure it was him) on mike and mike saying that he works in philly and the writers in philly got together in mid-september and voted for phillies MVP. brad lidge won. so, (and i know this is debatable) if howard isnt even the MVP of his team, why would he be MVP of the NL?
i think pujols was the correct choice. longoria may have been in the running for MVP if he wasnt a lock for ROY.
By TennesseePaul
November 18, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this
Making too much sense with that post DOB. From what I’ve read, trading Yunel spells death for the franchise…
I’d like to see Peavy in the rotation. He’s the best option available. I think Yunel could be replaced. There is no clone of him out there, but there are viable defenders who could hold down the position while the big bat in LF picks up the slack of hitting.
We’ll see though. Wren shouldn’t cave to something stupid even if Lowe and AJ sign else where.
By matt_T
November 18, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
DOB, You going to the Kings of Leon/Whigs show tonight?
By JimD
November 18, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this
Given the Braves claim they have a little wiggle room in the payroll department, are Peavy and Lowe necessarily mutually exclusive?
Sure, we can’t wait around to see what Boras/Lowe are going to do, but if the Peavy deal goes down, couldn’t there still exist the possibility of signing Lowe also?
By Efrim
November 18, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this
DOB
Do you have an idea of what the holdup is for Peavy? Did Towers come in at the last moment and ask us to include an additional prospect or did he revert back to asking for Tommy Hanson?
By The BBQ on DOB mouth
November 18, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this
DOB,
Rumor on ESPN or CNN had braves looking at Randy Johnson…Any truth to this?
By Cliff
November 18, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
The “hold up” should be that Peavy’s contract is 81 and his value is 100 or so (5 yers 20 million. NO WAY anybody pays more than that if Peavy was a FA). Net value of Peavy is, say, 19. Yunel’s non contract is (assuming “Good Yunel) 25 million. Yunel’s worth assuming “Good Yunel” is 60 million. Net value 35 million. Assuming “mediocre Yunel” his non contract is 20 million. He is worth 45 million. Net value is 25 million.
Why not just pay comparable salary to another pitcher and keep Yunel to either solve another problem or play short?
By sassandcompany
November 18, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this
DOB,
I’m a Braves fan from New Jersey. I’m exactly an hour from New York and Philly. I really need someone to feel my pain. I’m at the realization that we lost the chess match to get the upper hand for Peavy. I think now that all these big named free agents are being signed we have to up our anty to get Peavy(which is scary). If we do happen to get Peavy and say Raf do you still think we need to hold on to Kelly?
By Amazin
November 18, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this
The solution is simple. If Jake Peavy is the savior that must be had…then give up Hanson. I predict the Braves will in the end trade Hanson for Peavy because as we’ve been told…there are no no no other options…lol!
By Anders
November 18, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this
DOB
and once Padres GM Kevin Towers realizes that he can’t keep asking the salesman to keep adding accessories after the price for the car has already been agreed upon
Has the price been agreed to? Not that I’ve seen or heard. And Towers can ask for more accessories while he still has the threat that the dealer across the street is giving them away. It’s up to Wren to gauge wether the threat is real or if he wants to wait in the hopes that the other dealer pulls back the accessories.
By Mike Honcho
November 18, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this
Guys, we won a World Series with Jeff Blauser at short. Let that marinate for a while…Jeff Blauser.
On a happy note if we do this trade, Blauser is available!
By Efrim
November 18, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
DOB
Saw Role Models and laughed out loud at least a half-dozen times, always a good sign. Really is a hilarious movie.
And yes, Role Models is an excellent movie.
By ppaddy123
November 18, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this
By ppaddy123
November 18, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
By David O’Brien
November 18, 2008 9:40 AM
JT, if by “that” you’re ferring to whether they think about a guy’s clubhouse demeanor or his overall “teammate” profile, if you will, then yes, of course they think about it. That’s all part of it. The No. 1 thing, and by a large measure, is performance. But yes, of course other factors come into play in these decisions, too.
I brought this over from the other blog…. Just to follow add to what you said DOB……A co-worker of mine….his son was drafted 4-5 round last year by the Dodgers (John Michael Redding). As he was going into the draft process, he had several teams that were interested in him, and several had him take psychological exams. So obviously there are MLB teams measuring both physical and mental capabilities of players they are interested in.
By JS
November 18, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
DOB
Don’t you think that Towers is dragging his heels, waiting for some of the pitching help like Dempster, Burnett et al to get off the market to the Yankees, etc… with the thought that once the Braves options are limited for top tier pitching help, they’ll be more inclined to throw in the towel to the Padres demands for Peavy??
Any Randy Johnson possibility?? I know he’s not what he used to be, but… And, what news is out there on Pedro at this point??
By JoeBrave
November 18, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
WTF??? Peavy AGAIN??? Might as well go ahead and get Knucksie,Adrian Devine,and The Count Montefusco..see if they will come. I Swear i have this sickening feeling in my gut, that Paul Byrd,and Oliver Perez will be in the Rotation.I think Mr.Wren pooped in his BVD’s at the GM Meetings. This Offseason is really Starting to WREAK of Failure!!!!
By GermanBravesFan
November 18, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
NEW ALBUM: WORKING ON A DREAM SET FOR JANUARY 27 RELEASE It’s official: Bruce Springsteen’s new album is set for January 27 release on Columbia Records. Working on a Dream was recorded with the E Street Band and features twelve new Springsteen compositions plus two bonus tracks. It is the fourth collaboration between Springsteen and Brendan O’Brien, who produced and mixed the album.
Track list: 1. Outlaw Pete 2. My Lucky Day 3. Working On a Dream 4. Queen of the Supermarket 5. What Love Can Do 6. This Life 7. Good Eye 8. Tomorrow Never Knows 9. Life Itself 10. Kingdom of Days 11. Surprise, Surprise 12. The Last Carnival
Bonus tracks: The Wrestler A Night with the Jersey Devil
By BA
November 18, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this
Pedroia is a seriously lame MVP. I couldn’t be more sick of the over saturation of the Red Sox. Sorry, Josh Hamilton- MLB is about Boston and New York- not much else.
By Nate
November 18, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this
The problem with trading Yunel for Peavy is that it will cost 10 million / year to replace Yunel with comparable talent, and that’s on top of the money the Braves would be paying Peavy. So if Peavy’s average salary is 16mil it really cost the Braves 26 million. Unless their willing to take a hit at shortstop for the next several years.
By Andrew
November 18, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this
Whats the chance that the Braves would trade Flowers and Escobar and maybe Morton. Maybe more overall talent, but fewer players?
How many years until fans can expect to see Heyward and Schafer in the outfield together?
By Amazin
November 18, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this
“Gimme a P!” “Gimme a E!” Gimmie a A!”I wonder why the Philadelphia PhillieS don’t offer Rollins and a few prospects for Peavy? Shortstops don’t matter and are easy to find.What about the Mets..give up young Reyes has an attitude and is hotheaded….save your rotation..NOW! What is the matter with these teams? They should be pushin to get in…don’t they know who this guy is??? “Gimmie a V!” “Gimmie a Y!”…
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 18, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this
Voice of Reason—
If we gave up all that, sure we’d have Peavy, but we wouldn’t have anything else.
McFlowwers—
Yeah, dude. Too many W’s.
Thanks for the new Blog, DOB!
By OLEREB
November 18, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this
I just dont get it. Would it not save us money if we signed A.J. for 80 million then to trade for Peavy and give him 81 million. We could keep Yunel and not have to pay Furcal 36 million. Is Yunel that bad in the clubhouse, do we need to get rid of him that bad? I just know he is one of the better ss in baseball. If it was up to me, I would keep the money, invest it in player development and build a dynasty again. You see it every year of teams spending money on older players and not getting their money’s worth. Build the thing right, play our kids, develop the kids, Bobby is the best at that. We are more than 3 players away from being a contender anyway, Examples I think of is the Devil Rays and the Marlins, the Marlins have more championships than we do in the last 15 years.
By Jstech
November 18, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
Have heard much about Sheets yet. Any chance the Braves take a look? Also, if a bat isn’t found, can Casey bat third with Chipper 4th?
By ppaddy123
November 18, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this
DOB, funny how you used the car salesman analogy about the Peavy trade, because I was thinking the same thing. The Padres will trade Peavy. But, unfortunately for them, they can only make a deal with a few teams and it appears that list is getting smaller (Cubs to sign Dempster)…Wren is right to keep kicking the tires and his hands in his pockets….The Padres will make the deal for him.
By Bonzo
November 18, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this
Wow … A new blog from our crusading everyman. I think I tore my Tommy Johnson ligament racing my mouse to the top of the page to get to the new blog. It’s OK, though. John Andrews is just down the road from me and he can patch up that ‘ol ligament.
Glad to have you back, DOB. Hopefully the Braves and Mr. Wren will be cooking with gas soon.
By Erik
November 18, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this
DOB Welcome back you have been missed.
I certainly don’t mean to be a Debbie Downer, but what IF we dont get Peavy, Lowe, Brunette, or Dempster (which it appears he is a cub again). What do you think the braves would do then? It would seem very difficult to compete in the NL East without a frontline starter. Would the braves sign a couple low end inning eater type starters or give guys like Parr a chance to start? Would they still pursue trades for offensive upgrades?
Thanks just trying to see what would happen under a worse case scenario.
Thanks DOB
By Efrim
November 18, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
Anders
Has the price been agreed to? Not that I’ve seen or heard. And Towers can ask for more accessories while he still has the threat that the dealer across the street is giving them away. It’s up to Wren to gauge wether the threat is real or if he wants to wait in the hopes that the other dealer pulls back the accessories.
Good points. I can’t imagine names like Burnett, Dempster, Lowe going off the board will help the Braves chances of trading for Peavy with a package of Yunel Escobar, Gorkys Hernandez, Charlie Morton and Blaine Boyer….if that what was offered.
I think Towers asked for more last Thursday, and if he asked for more, then what will make him not ask more for today, after hearing the Yankees crazy proposal to Burnett.
The leverage is probably more in the hands of Kevin Towers at this point. Even if he has no other suitors for Peavy’s services.
My guess is Peavy will be a Brave, but Wren will have to add an additonal prospect like Locke to the proposal. There’s one of those 5 for 1 deals Mark Bradley was talking about over the weekend…..
By DannyFish
November 18, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this
DOB Thanks for the new blog. Have you heard anything about the Braves and Mike Hampton? I was hoping that they would sign him back quick after looking good to close out last season. I know that you can’t really depend on him but if he stays healthy (fingers crossed) he could be a really nice surprise for us.
By Jacob
November 18, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this
What do you think the chances of Edgar Renteria coming back to Atlanta? I believe that he will a much better option for the braves if picking up two starting pitchers is still in the mix. He didn’t have a successful season last year, however, he is a warm weather baseball player! He has said repeatedly that he would love to play for Bobby Cox again.
By Andrew
November 18, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
just get the Peavy trade done … its going to take a lot - just don’t include Hansen and and Heyward.
Something is going to have to give soon - it would suck to get stuck with no moves this off season.
When are Heyward and Scafer coming up to Atlanta? A young outfield would have some bumps a long the way, but at least it would be fun to watch.
By True Braves Fan
November 18, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this
Any chance we offer Randy Johnson 8 mil for one year? (Not to replace the possibility of Peavy, but in addition to.)
By Scooter McGee
November 18, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this
All this Peavy talk is worse than a 5 year marriage. All the thrill is gone.
By BrandonC
November 18, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this
All I know is something needs to be accomplished. Since the Peavy negotiations “quit” last week we haven’t heard any other rumors regarding the Braves besides the Ohman offer. I know it’s still early, but it just seems like they are still waiting for the Peavy deal to happen, even after they said they weren’t going after him anymore. I hope Wren has a magic wand in his pocket because this team is several players away from being a contender again.
By David O'Brien
November 18, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this
Erik, I can’t see such a scenario unfolding. Yes, they might possibly miss out on the four front-liners you mentioned, but there are many other options — some known at this time, some not known — available on the trade market, guys between those top-tier free agents (and Peavy) and the low-end innings eaters you mentioned. Tthink of the Jon Garlands and Scott Olsens of the world. Or Randy Wolf, etc.
Worst-case scenario, I think, is they only get one top-half-of-rotation type starter. But there’s a LOT of time to get two good starters.
By skull
November 18, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this
Mike Honcho
Guys, we won a World Series with Jeff Blauser at short. Let that marinate for a while…Jeff Blauser.
Way off! Since ‘95 was the ATLANTA Braves only series win I remember it like yesterday.
Blauser didn’t set foot on the field for that series except for pre-game intros.
The SS was mostly Belliard, with Mike Mordecai relacing him a couple of times. Who can forget Belliard’s squeeze that turned out to be the winning run in game one. How about Belliard’s fine sprinting catch of Lofton’s pop foul for the 1st out of the nine in the series clinching game six. Don’t believe it—-maybe finding the box scores for the series. I’m sure they’re out there somewhere on the internet—-no I don’t have any link to them but I remember well what happened.
YEAH! YEAH! YEAH! every bit as good as Braves win! Braves win! Braves win!
By Jim
November 18, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this
DOB
Thanks for the reports on Hanson and Flowers. But did you get a chance to see and get reports on the other Brave players at Mesa? I’d particularly like to hear what you saw and have heard about Matt Young. Is he a dark horse candidate for a promotion to Atlanta in the next year or two? Also what is the word on Medlen and Marek? These three player seem to be quitely having a good fall in the shadow of Hanson and Flowers.
By Erik
November 18, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this
Nate IF Yunel and Furcal we exactly the same then yes you would have a point but they are not. Defensively they are very similar but furcal brings us a leadoff hitter and a LEGIT BASE STEALER the braves have not had that since he left. Furcal is better than Yunel now(might and probably will be the opposite at the end of the 4 yr contract we would have to give Furcal, however by that point they will probably cost the same). Furcal gives added value to our team and gives a leadoff hitter. Yunel was a good 2 hole hitter put we have a couple guys that seem to be that 2 hole hitter type, including KJ, Prado, and possibly Schaffer.
Bottom line is we get much more for that 26 million than we would for 16 a year of Brunette
By DAP
November 18, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this
erik if i can get in on the worst case senerio thing… if we cant get any of those good or even decent starters, the braves till have about $40mil to spend. heres what i think they could do, worst case senerio. re-sign hampton maybe for two years. sign one of the older free agetns, say mike mussina for one year. then sign one of the lower tier FA pitcher to a three year deal. someon like looper, mulder (coming back from injury) wolf.
thus the braves have three pitchers to round out jurjens and campillo. hanson, morton, jojo in reserve, in case we need them, which we just might.
to me, this would leave no excuse to not resign will ohman. we wont be spending as much on starters, so we should hang onto our good relief.
then, try to build up the offense with a shrewd move like a trade for a young player.
to me, thats worst case. no matter what, we have money to spend, and we should. when 2010 comes around, the braves will be alot better, either way.
By JOE
November 18, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this
What is up with Mike Hampton? Any offers from anyone? Do the Braves really want him back?? Whats up with Smoltz’s shoulder? Glad you’re back..
By Wayne
November 18, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this
What is the story behind Sheets? Is he handing out information on his elbow situation (medical reports, etc).
What would it take to sign him? If the Pads won’t budge on Peavy, then let’s go for Sheets, Randy Johnson and Mike Hampton. I know it sounds eerily like 2008 all over again, but this beats overpaying tremendously.
With the Cubs signing Dempster, I can’t see them making a serious offer for Peavy.
By SEM
November 18, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
DOB, you mentioned eating in Kansas City. My wife was born in KC (parents lived 60 miles south in Butler, no hospital in 1955), and visited the city frequently in her early years. One of her favorite restaurants is Stephenson’s Apple Farm in Independence. Ever eaten there? I’ve gone there a few times over the years. Man, the apple fritters just about make me swallow my tongue. I also enjoy the free apple cider in the waiting room. Need to go there again. Trouble is, it’s not exactly on my way anywhere living here in Alabama.
By BA
November 18, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
Bradley’s “empty farm system” article was ill-informed at best. Adding Locke or Rohrbough would hardly leave the cupboard empty.
The Tex trade didn’t “empty” the farm system either. They lost a couple of potentially good players (Salty, Andrus) and one legit pitching prospect (Perez).
All of these can’t miss prospects that have come up the last few years, and McCann is the only one to develop into a star.
Bring Fookie back, bad back and all. Trade Esco for Peavy, Kelly “the infield butcher” Johnson for Ludwick and go to war with fookie and nitmar.
They’ll make you shine.
By robdawg08
November 18, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
“Get Peavy even if you have to trade Chipper.”
So you trade a hitter that will win win 60 games with his bat (that’s what hitting .370 will do) for a pitcher that might win 14 to 20 games with his arm ? No thanks.
Trading Escobar would be a mistake. He has more upside than Peavy does. Braves need to pony up the cash for free agents or stand pat and be a content third place team. One scenario WILL happen.
By Voice from the past
November 18, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this
That “voice of reason” is not the Voice of Reason, nor is he a voice of reason. I am the one and only original Voice of Reason, and am embarrassed that that pile of dung was served up under my handle.
By DAP
November 18, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this
i actually think the braves are in a better place with the peavy talks. wren isnt going to budge on the trade. hes already shown hed do it his way or no way. now that the cubs, who were the only other team even remotly in the running for peavy, have signed dempster, their need for peavy has waned.
this leaves the braves as maybe the only team still standing. wren may be able to get it back to a three player trade.
By Steve from OH
November 18, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this
Here’s an article from Baseball America on Hanson and Flowers:
PHOENIX — Braves pitching prospect Tommy Hanson came to the Arizona Fall League with one primary goal in mind.
“Mainly to come out here and work on my changeup,” Hanson said.
Instead, the 22-year-old righthander has elevated his reputation to that of one of the top pitching prospects in baseball with his performance for the Mesa Solar Sox.
After six starts, Hanson has effectively used his four-pitch arsenal to post a 0.76 ERA with 39 strikeouts and only five walks in 23 2/3 innings. He’s held opposing hitters to a meager .114 average. These numbers don’t include the three hitless, scoreless innings he pitched in the annual Rising Stars Showcase held at the end of the AFL’s third week.
His AFL performance comes after a year in which he finished 3-1, 0.90 at high Class A Myrtle Beach and 8-4, 3.03 at Double-A Mississippi. It was Hanson’s third professional season after being picked in the 22nd round of the 2005 draft as a draft-and-follow out of Riverside Community College. His season included a no-hitter for Mississippi.
Hanson’s got a pretty good idea why he’s been successful in Arizona.
“Just the consistency of my breaking pitches,” he replied. “All my off-speed pitches felt really good out here. I’ve been able to throw them for strikes when I need to.”
Hanson’s success is no surprise to Mesa skipper Rocket Wheeler, who was with him for parts of the past two seasons as manager of the Myrtle Beach Pelicans.
“I saw a different Tommy Hanson take the ball field (this year) as opposed to ‘07 when he came up halfway through the year,” Wheeler said. “Tommy got hit around in ‘07 a little bit. It’s not that he didn’t believe in his stuff. When he took the mound this year it was like a new person. He knows what he wants to do, he knows what pitches he wants to throw, and for the most part all year, he’s thrown every pitch he wants to throw and put it where he wants to put it.”
Fellow Braves farmhand Tyler Flowers, Hanson’s primary catcher in the AFL, has witnessed the steady improvement.
“I’ve seen a lot of growth since I caught him early in the year in Myrtle Beach,” said Flowers. “He looked pretty sharp, but nothing like he is now. The addition of his slider has been his special pitch; it really keeps the hitters off balance. They can’t really cheat. To catch up to the fastball now, they have to respect that slider. His changeup’s coming along and he’s got that devastating curveball that definitely buckles the hitters all the time.”
Solar Sox pitching coach Ray Burris points out one other important attribute that Hanson has going for him—his cerebral approach to pitching.
“Where he has raised his game is knowing how to take his mental toughness to another level,” said Burris, the Tigers pitching coach at Double-A Erie. “The consistency that he has developed in his mind, in his pitch selection and his approach has been remarkable.”
Judging from his results in Arizona, it’s difficult to imagine that Hanson had to correct any flaws this fall. But he credits Burris with helping him improve his approach at the start of the game. It’s the single most important lesson he’s learned this fall.
“I usually struggle in the first inning in finding the strike zone, getting too pumped up and leaving my fastballs high,” Hanson said. “He (Burris) had Flowers set up in the middle of the plate … I try to get downhill, get to my balance point, and start working downhill and get to the bottom of the zone before I start hitting corners.”
His name was mentioned in numerous trade rumors earlier in the fall, but the laid-back Hanson didn’t let it bother him. He acknowledged that trades are part of the game and that whatever happens is out of his control. He has since been told by Braves officials that he will not be traded, that he’s very much in their plans.
“All I try to worry about is going out and pitching,” he said.
To say that Hanson’s done a great job this fall is an understatement. He’ll go to spring training with a chance at a rotation spot in Atlanta sometime in 2009, perhaps at the beginning of the season.
“He’s been a dominant pitcher out here,” Wheeler said. “He’s made a statement that he wants to pitch in Atlanta next year. I’m looking for great things out of Tommy.”
Wheeler then corrected himself, saying, “Greater things.”
FALL GUYS Tyler Flowers (Braves) ripped four home runs last week, including three in one game against Surprise on Nov. 12, to take the league lead with 11. With four regular-season games remaining, the Georgia native is three behind the league record set in 2005 by Brandon Wood (Angels).
The Solar Sox catcher, who hit 17 homers for Myrtle Beach during the regular season, believes he is just building on his year in the Carolina League with only a slight modification.
“My approach at the plate stayed the same,” Flowers said. “I made a small mechanical adjustment, raising my hands up a little bit, but other than that it’s the same approach every day. I haven’t been missing as many pitches and the ball carries nice out here.”
By Jim
November 18, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
I don’t think it makes us competetive to trade away Yunel and or KJ to get a number 1 (Peavy) and include Morton in that package. I would expect Morton to be our number 4-5 starter next year if we stood pat, and I’d expect him to develop over the year into a more than competent middle of the rotation starter. If we went with Hanson, Jair, and Morton, plus two other Campillo/Hampton/Glavine type starters, we would not be competetive in 2009, but we would be giving the nucleus of our next rotation a good chance to develop and would have a very solid front end of the rotation in 2010 and beyond. If our rotation is Peavy, Jair, Hanson, and fill in the blanks we are not much stronger next year and we have lost a key part of our infield defense and our offense that is difficult to replace. Plus we have added a lot of pyroll that we could use more productively to build and keep a nucleus when the team is better positioned to contend in 2010 and beyond. Furcal (BAD BACK), Renteria (NO ARM, LITTLE RANGE), and Cabrera (34 YEARS OLD AT SS) are little more than stop-gap measures with, thanks to the Tex deal, no adequate replacement in sight within our system. Pitching takes a little time to develop and one more year with the potential that Hanson, Jair, and Morton have could reward this team with young rotation that maintains our competetiveness for the next 5+ years.
By Mike Honcho
November 18, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
skull
proves my point even more. Did Blauser play at all that season?
If not…we won a world series with players that couldn’t beat out Jeff Blauser for the starting job.
So those that believe that the Braves, after losing Escobar, will look like Topeka, KS after the Russians attack are miserable creatures.
What these people are saying is unforgiveable, and offensive to lesser shortstops everywhere who are weighed down by the Tiffany diamonds of their World Series rings (see: Rafeal Belliard and his art studio in Boca)
By ppaddy123
November 18, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this
By Erik November 18, 2008 3:37 PM Nate IF Yunel and Furcal we exactly the same then yes you would have a point but they are not. Defensively they are very similar but furcal brings us a leadoff hitter and a LEGIT BASE STEALER the braves have not had that since he left.
He was a legit base stelaer before back surgery. I seriously doubt he will run nearly as much now. He will still be a solid defensive SS but hell will only run 20-25% of the time.
By Daybed Wagmoe
November 18, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this
DOB — what movies did you get from Blockbuster for your nephew?
By Efrim
November 18, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this
Bowman has another article up:
http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/11/startingpitchingoptions_dwin.html
I really hope this back and forth negotiation doesn’t continue until Christmas. If the Braves are to get a reasonable replacement for Yunel Escobar(Rafael Furcal), then I would think the Peavy deal needs to happen before the winter meetings. Well before the winter meetings, as it seems like Furcal already has offers from a few clubs.
The likes of Edgar Renteria(defensively) and Cesar Izturis(offensively) won’t be a suitable replacement for Yunel.
By Original Jon
November 18, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this
How about someone like Justin Verlander, do you think he could be had for cheap since he is coming off a subpar year?
By David O'Brien
November 18, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this
Joe, last I heard from or about Smoltz, he was progressing as planned. Frank Wren said he probably wouldn’t know until as late as January whether Smoltz and/or Glavine would be back. Smoltz told me he wasn’t going to answer any questions about his progress, so I can’t help you anymore than that.
As for Hampton, as we’ve written many times, he wants to see what other offers he gets, because he’d prefer a team closer to his home in Arizona. He’s going through a divorce and wants to be near his kids out there if he can, so he can get back on off days or whatever, and possibly be there for spring training.
You’ve got to remember, it’s still very early in the free-agent process and only a couple of guys have even signed. The majority won’t sign before winter meetings in a couple of weeks, and many won’t sign until later.
By DAP
November 18, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this
BA dont forget matt harrison won 9 games in 15 starts for the rangers. none of his other stats are that good, but still.
By TheDunderChief
November 18, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this
Someone’s probably mentioned already, but don’t you have to add the additional salary that will go to Yunel’s replacement onto Peavy’s Salary? It depends on who they get, but most likely it will be a substantial amount and would make the Peavy deal eat into payroll much more than just grabbing a free agent pitcher even at above market prices while holding onto Yunel.
By Luther
November 18, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this
Good call Skull
Looked it up and Belliard was 0-16 in the 95 series with 4 k’s, 1 RBI, and 2 SHs.
By David O'Brien
November 18, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this
JIM: I’m doing a story on Marek and Medlen for Thursday paper (should be posted online by tomorrow night). Both have pitched very well out there, both have good stuff and throw strikes. I think Marek’s got a good shot to win a bullpen job this spring, and Medlen could compete either for a bullpen or starting spot this year. Marek’s a thick-legged dude with some nasty stuff. Medlen’s small, but has a decent fastball that he spots very well, like he does all his pitches. Goes right after hitters, impresses everyone who sees him. He really took off when he moved to starting role at midseason last year, and I think that’s where he’s best suited. Probably needs a full season of starting in the minors, but nothing’s set in stone.
I wrote a blog comment or something about Young. He’s a Pete Orr type, scrappy guy who could compete for a utility job in the not-too-distant future, here or elsewhere. He is about as small a player as you’ll see, smaller than Giles. Probably about 5-7, perhaps even shorter. But he’s quick, can steal a base and can hit for average.
By dent
November 18, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this
I may be in the minority but we should consider both Sheets and Oliver Perez. Perez is young and durable. Years ago I would have traded several prospects for him. Mets stole him for nothing. Sheets on a two year deal if necessary. I would really like to make the Peavy deal. Sign Furcal. Furcal would really help the top of our line up. With Hansen, Morton, Campillo we would be very competitive.
By Tomas
November 18, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this
DOB, this is the article where implies Zack Greinke may be traded
Royals’ Greinke in no rush to sign long-term deal By BOB DUTTON The Kansas City Star
Zack Greinke sounds like he intends to take a wait-and-see approach before committing to a long-term future with the Royals.
“I’m comfortable with my pitching ability,” he said, “to (the point) where I feel like I’m going to pitch (well) for a while. I don’t need to get a long-term deal because I feel I’ll be able to pitch (well) and earn a long-term deal when I become a free agent.”
Greinke’s comments came Tuesday on a teleconference conducted following his selection as recipient of the Joe Burke Special Achievement award by the Kansas City Chapter of the Baseball Writers’ Association of America.
Club officials previously indicated a desire to work out a long-term contract for Greinke, who isn’t eligible for free agency until after the 2010 season. The club’s preference is to buy out at least one year of free-agent eligibility.
“Zack has been a big part of stabilizing our pitching here in Kansas City,” general manager Dayton Moore said. “We look forward to the opportunity for him to continue his career here.”
Greinke indicated that his decision might hinge on the Royals’ on-field success.
“I love the city,” he said. “It’s just trying to figure out how good we’re going to be.”
Industry analysts suggest the framework for any deal is likely to be the three-year contract that Scott Kazmir signed last May with Tampa Bay. Kazmir gets $28.5 million in guaranteed salary but surrenders his first year of free-agent eligibility.
Greinke, 25, was 13-10 last season with a 3.47 ERA in 32 starts. It marked his first full season in the rotation since 2005.
Moore acknowledged that the failure to reach a long-term agreement could prompt the Royals to trade Greinke — but not at any point in the immediate future.
“That’s jumping ahead a little bit,” Moore said, “but that’s a logical conclusion you can make with any player who approaches free agency.”
Greinke is entering his second offseason of arbitration eligibility after making $1.4 million in 2008. His salary for next season seems likely to reach $3 million or more.
“It’s still the club’s option to do whatever it wants,” he said. “I still have a two-year (commitment) with them. That’s pretty long-term. I don’t really know how things are going to work out or what’s going to happen here.”
I guess when Moore says not in the immediate future, he is saying the royals will have Greinke in their rotation for the beginning of next year. And if Greinke doesn’t want to sign a long term deal he will trade him by the trade deadline or in the offseason of next season. Zack Greinke will be a free agent on 2010.
That doesn’t work for Atlanta unfortunately, they need someone in the immediate future.
I think they should outbid the Yankees for Aj Burnett. I know 5 years is a lot for a guy like Aj, but if they don’t they wont be able to land two quality starters.
I propose this give Aj Burnett an offer of 5 years 80.5 million. in 2009 when he is 32, 18 million, in 2010 when he is 33, 18 million, in 2011 when he is 34, 17 million, in 2012 when he is 35, 14.25million, and 2013 when he is 36, 13.25 million.
I know it’s a big gamble, but if we don’t get Aj, trust me, Derek Lowe would command like 3 years 51 million. That would be an even bigger gamble because of his age. I know he has never been in the DL, but so was Glavine until this year.
So it’s up to this, do you give Aj Burnett a 32 yr old starter with dominant stuff, but with a history of injuries(he didn’t have any arm problems last year), 5 yrs 80.5 million.
Or do you give Derek Lowe a 36 yr old starting pitcher, with good control and a terrific sinker(a 4.42 ERA on the road), 3yrs 51 million.
After this year, I hope the Braves learn their lesson about signing old pitchers.
If I were Wren I’d choose Aj Burnett, because of his dominant stuff, and younger age.
By ppaddy123
November 18, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this
By DAP November 18, 2008 3:54 PM this leaves the braves as maybe the only team still standing. wren may be able to get it back to a three player trade.
I agree. What were the 5 original teams? Braves, Cubs, Cards, Astros?, and Dodgers…..I think. From all appearances, we still look like the best match.
By Novice Ned
November 18, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this
Worese case scenario, we go with an 8-man rotation featuring Smoltz, Glavine, Maddox, Randy Johnson, Mike Mussina, Pettite, Hampton & Jurrjens.
By jokurone
November 18, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this
Hey DB, you mis-spelled “since” it should be made “sense” for the braves.
By Lew
November 18, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this
TampaBrave-Sorry to hear about your hermaphroditic Aunt, but what part of Kelly Johnson’s 21 game hitting streak to end the season was unclear to you? Did you also happen to hear what he attributed his resurgence to? I did-it was being more aggressive and not taking strikes early in the count. It worked.
By jokurone
November 18, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB, you mis-spelled “since” it should be made “sense” for the Braves
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 18, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this
Voice from the past—
I figured he had to be a fake. Don’t you just despise those identity thieves?
By N8
November 18, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this
Mike Honcho
“Guys, we won a World Series with Jeff Blauser at short. Let that marinate for a while…Jeff Blauser.”
For starters, we got to the post-season WITH Jeff Blauser at SS.
However, he was inactive for the WS, due to injury. I’ve said it a hundred times, the defensive play that Belliard made for out #1 (Kenny Lofton, I believe), leading off the top of the 9th in Game 6, would NOT have been made by Blauser.
Secondly, we also had 3 HOF pitchers in the rotation (along with Steve Avery, who was affective that post-season as well), ADD TO THAT, we had Wohlers as the closer.
Ryan Klesko could have been the SS of that team, and they might have still won it all.
That being said, I understand your angle.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 18, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
BTW—Since Beggar Ben has returned (and begged twice already since lunch), I cann now be depressed that Nate McLouth got that tenth-place vote for MVP instead of McCann.
: (
By Marv Kleeman
November 18, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
“Fanatic” Braves fan here.
First time poster, long time reader of this great blog.
Memo to Frank Wren:
You and J.S. have put together a nice little team; please don’t break it up.
Keep Yunel Escobar
Keep Kelly Johnson
Don’t trade any of our prospects.
We have a pitching staff that is very underrated and will surprise a lot of people in 2009.
An excellent mix of youngsters (Jair Jurrjens, Jo Jo Reyes, Charlie Morton) a “grizzled” veteran (Mike Hanpton, if we can re sign him) and a little international flavor (Jorge Campillo, the “Mexican Maddox”).
C’mon guys. Young pitchers need time to develop. Give Jo Jo Reyes and Charlie Morton a chance. You’ve all been spoiled by the success of Greg Maddox, John Smoltz and Tom Glavine.
We had little patience with Kyle Davies and traded him to K.C. for Octavio Dotel; a half season rental.
We had little patience with Joey Devine (who had a record setting season in 2008)and traded him to Oak.for Mark Kotsay; a veteran journeyman and good clubhouse presence.
Young pitchers struggle. That is part of the maturation process. The Mets could have traded Mike Pelfrey as part of the package for Johan Santana but instead held on to him and see how nicely he developed.
If Jo Jo Reyes and Charlie Morton develop as I believe they can, you save tens of millions of dollars going into the 2010 season where they can be joined in the rotation by Tim Hudson and Tommy Hanson.
Just sign Raul Ibanez to a two year contract to play left field and Juan Rivera to a two year contract to be our fourth outfielder and as a hedge against another possible flop by Jeff Francoeur.
And we’re good to go.
By Ted
November 18, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
I understand the use of Peavy’s career numbers. But why is the fact he’s been pitching half his games in the best pitcher’s park in baseball being ignored?
His career ERA at home is 2.77. His career ERA on the road is 3.80. Now I am not saying he’s a bad pitcher, and he’d definitely be the best the Braves have. But I think it skews perception if we think Peavy, if now pitching in a more neutral ballpark, is going to remain a sub 2.90 pitcher.
So what are you truly going to get out of Peavy at $16MM/year for 5 years (and I would expect his option to be picked up as a condition to waive his no-trade) that you might not get out of Burnett for $16MM/year for 5 years? Durability? Perhaps. But Peavy’s missed time in two seasons, so he doesn’t sport a perfectly clean bill of health either. So is giving up your starting SS, a very good CF prospect and two other players worth that increased durability? Again, perhaps. But I don’t think it is a no-brainer type of decision, either.
In the end, if the Braves can get Peavy for Yunel, Gorkys, Morton and lower prospect/MR, you make the deal due to the Braves sorely needing SP. But much more than that, and I personally would rather they spend $16MM/year for Burnett and/or Lowe since I don’t think they’d be THAT much worse than what peavy would give you outside of PETCO - and you’d still have the aforementioned players.
By Nate
November 18, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this
Eric,
I’m not sure Furcal brings more to the table than Yunel right now. Did you see him make those errors in the playoffs? He’s got a bad. How many games did miss this past season? How many games will he miss next season? As he ages how quick will the drop off be. Since no one could ever figure out his real age its pretty tough to really assess that.
And how many years does Yunel have before he reaches free agency? Is it more than the three or four years that signing Furcal would require? Plus Yunel has upside. He’s going to continue to improve the next few seasons.
Picking Yunel over Furcal over the course of the next three season is an easy call, and that’s not even mentioning the money saved by keeping Yunel.
You have to admit that over teh course of teh next three seasons you would rather have Burnett, Escobar, and an extra 10 million dollars per year to spend than have Furcal and Peavy.
I mean, that’s not a hard choice.
By matt r
November 18, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
Frank Wren calls you to tell you that the talks have broken off? Is this some sort of media-leaking-posturing to make the Padres think that we are not happy with the directions the talks are going? Or is it something else?
By Ron Roberts
November 18, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
I, too, have wondered why the Braves aren’t mentioned in the Randy Johnson discussion. I mean, he’s year-to-year, isn’t he? To me, he’s perfect to fill the Tim Hudson void in the rotation, then we go get that one top-of-the-rotation guy to go with him and see where that gets us for the year.
He’s a viable bridge-gapper, isn’t he? What kind of money’s he asking for, anyhow?
By Fred
November 18, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this
Novice Ned… be serious… you forgot David Wells and Jamie Moyer.
By flange1
November 18, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this
VOR,
Raisins, we knew that post wasn’t you! You are way to smart for that stuff!!!
By robdawg08
November 18, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this
Escobar is a 5 tool player (speed,power,glove,arm,avg.) and Furcal is a 3 tool player (speed,arm,glove). Furcal is faster but that’s the only tool he’s better than Yunel at. Furcal has previous injuries and Yunel doesn’t. Furcal is in his 10th year and Yunel only in his 2nd year. Yunel might become a Tejada or Jeter. Furcal is a R.Belliard type.
By Epinephrine
November 18, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
I feel like the Braves bargaining position w regard to Peavy would be enhanced if we could sign someone first.
With the Cubs signing Dempster and dealing Ceda, I think their chances of getting Peavy decrease significantly.
I don’t buy the Yankees.
The Braves still seem the logical choice. If we can move to a position where we don’t absolutely need Peavy, we enhance our position still further. Then maybe the Pads would be forced to take a Escobar, Hernandez Boyer/Locke/Morton/Reyes package. That is, 3 pieces rather than 4.
By BravesWaves
November 18, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
Ok, my dream scenario: So we get Derek Lowe as quickly as we can. That makes our team even more attractive to Peavy, who puts more pressure on the Pads to get him to us. We give them Kelly “drop the easy pop” Johnson, Blow-Jo Reyes, and Blaine “blows the game” Boyer (oh man, how I’d love to see those three off at the airport!) in return. Glav gets better, Hampton and Smoltz are healthy and you have Jake Peavy, Derek Lowe, Jair, Glavine and Hampton. Then when Hudson gets back, you have Peavy, Hudson, Lowe and Glavine for the playoffs! Long relief: Campillo, Smoltz. Then if Ohman is back and everyone else stays healthy, we have a lights out rotation, and a really solid bullpen! Man, I wish. Come on Braves, it’s almost Christmas!
By N8
November 18, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
Luther
“Looked it up and Belliard was 0-16 in the 95 series with 4 k’s, 1 RBI, and 2 SHs.”
You know what that 1 RBI was, don’t you?
It was the squeeze play that knocked in the eventual winning run in a one run game.
How many times have guys like Yunel, KJ, Diaz and allegedly better hitters than a guy like Belliard (who played damn good defense in a bunch of close games in that series), FAIL to get down sacrifce bunts, much less squeeze plays in the past two years?
What goes un-noticed and unmentioned about those early 90’s Braves teams, including the WS winning team of 95, is that they RARELY failed to execute bunts. EVER. And when they got those bunts down, they USUALLY capitalized on them, and turned those sacrifices into runs.
Raise your hand, if you think that right there is the difference between a team being a perenniel winner, and a team that loses 20+ 1-Run games in a row?
Belliard was certainly not the MVP of that series. But to say they won DESPITE his 0 for 16, is naive. There was a time in MLB when most teams didn’t have an offensive minded SS. And the teams that did happen to have stellar pitching.
sound familiar?
By Tomas
November 18, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this
Damn Yankees, why the hell do they have so much money.
If we end up with Jon Garland this team has no future for next year.
I think Wren will be the one calling back Towers if he is unable to sign Lowe, or Burnett.
Apart from Jake Peavy, I think Aaran Harang, Bronson Arroyo, Ian Snell, Javier Vazques, and hopefully Scott Baker, and Francisco Liriano.
From that group I like Francisco Liriano, Jake Peavy, Aaron Harang, and Scott Baker.
To get Jake Peavy the Braves would have to trade Yunel Escobar, Jeff Locke, Gorkys Hernandez, Blaine Boyer, and Charlie Morton.
To get Francisco Liriano the Braves would have to trade Yunel Escobar, and Charlie Morton.
To get Scott Baker the Braves would have to trade Yunel Escobar, and Charlie Morton.
To get Aaron Harang the Braves would have to trade Jordan Schafer, Jeff Locke or Charlie Morton, and Blaine Boyer.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 18, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
I cann now be depressed that Nate McLouth got that tenth-place vote for MVP instead of McCann
McFann Last night I was just as clueless. Especially, rookie soto who lost to Mac recieved many votes. Steve from OH got it right- Won’t go far fighting the stupid calculations in such awards.
WE HAVE TO GO GET THIS PEAVY THING DONE
Not for the Peavy sake but we need FOOKIE!
We need a true leadoff hitter that has lacked since his departure.
The Muts, Phillies, and Marlins ALL have speed. If we want to be legit we must match them, they are our rivals after all…. Fookie CANN still hit!!!!
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 18, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
To everyone who wants Randy Johnson…
Do we really need to add another aging arm that will get us an average of 4-7 innings each time out? No doubt the guy can still strike ‘em out…but there is a reason why he may come cheap.
Don’t forget how over-worked our bullpen was last year. Randy Johnson is not going to help in that area at all.
By VORP
November 18, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
&^%Towers
By stamper
November 18, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this
robdawg08… you dont’ actually believe any of that nonsense you just spouted, do you? i think you’re high.
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 18, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this
Escobar, speed?! Furcal, Belliard?!
By robdawg08
November 18, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this
Dang Nate, I think we were reading each other’s minds on Yunel/Furcal. I will admit Furcal has more power than Belliard did but in my eyes he’s pretty much a Belliard.
I think all of us only want the best for the Braves. We surely aren’t GM’s or even claim to be but we follow the game and business close enough to know our teams flaws. I’m so glad we have had a good team for so long in Atlanta. We could easily be the Royals or Pirates. But its also shocking that the Braves are so close to being a top team (3 more good players) yet won’t (or seemingly won’t) get those three more players to be competitive. We could understand if it was the Royals who need 11 more players to compete.. Chipper and Hudson shouldn’t have to be a part of TOTAL rebuilding. Allow these players a chance to win with another team if this is the total change in direction the Braves go in. Teams need to be rebuilt for sure but this team is veteran and phenom laden. They can win next year and in the future with the right moves.
By used cars
November 18, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this
If feasible (feasable?) I would rather have Burnett and Escobar, than Peavy and Furcal or Cabrera…That being said, we still have a need for leftfield.If ludwick could be had for kelly, boyer and parr, then do it. Then get felipe lopez on the cheap for 2b and keep our bench intact. We would still need another pitcher, but then we could look at Randy Johnson or Perez, because we really need a lefty. Then I like the whole team and we didn’t gut our system and we could still make a move next summer if we needed to….
By Elmer
November 18, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this
The Braves need a power outfielder. Ludwick would fit.
By Andrew
November 18, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this
Are there any 3rd base prospects on the farm? Hoss has been a fixture, and the Braves have been lucky to have him, but the writing is on the wall. He doesn’t have too many seasons left.
Would it make any sense to trade him, with his consent, to a competitor and completely rebuild the team this year. Give a lot of time to rookies and see what happens. Seems like the Marlins do this every other year and they are exciting … won a world series last year,
Unfortunately the business of baseball has made it difficult to to have a consistent team - like the Braves seemed to have in the 90’s. Time to rebuild and give new talent a chance.
Besides the fact that the Braves had a GREAT decade, why would free agents want to come to Atlanta? Simply because they rooted for the team growing up? Grew up in the South? Doesn’t appear to be a stable franchise … how much longer does Cox have? What about Pendelton taking over? The thought of that wouldn’t make me want to sign in Atlanta.
By robdawg08
November 18, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this
Hey stamper, glad you joined in to criticize me. Now offer us your great wisdom on the Braves since you think I’m HIGH.
By Tomas
November 18, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
Used cars, I would prefer Jake Peavy, Aj Burnett, and Jack Wilson.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 18, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
N Owl—
Yeah. That last post of mine was partially tongue-in-cheek. Steve is very correct.
Someday Mac will get a vote. We cann be sure of that.
The Muts, Phillies, and Marlins ALL have speed.
Hopefully that same guy who didn’t get a vote will cut down on that!
By Nocturnal Owl
November 18, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this
The Braves need a power outfielder. Ludwick would fit. Elmer
Ya but not a sexy pick plus to throw in the loss of KJ. Not so hot.
By cabravesfan
November 18, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this
How did Randy Johnson suddenly become a viable option? Is it just because he is a lefty? Because I cannot possibly think of another reason to pursue a 45 year old with a back back…
By robdawg08
November 18, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this
I didn’t claim Escobar’s 5 tool status. Bobby Cox,Chipper Jones,Skip Caray,and Pete Van Weiren did that. I agree though. Speed doesn’t have to be 100 stolen bases per year. It can be 25 stolen bases per year. But the player has to be asked to run and Escobar was batting 2nd with Chipper and Tex behind him last year. Just because players don’t steal bases doesn’t mean that they can’t. The Braves were a 3 homerun team last year instead of a running team. Kelly Johnson and Francoeur can both run well too.
By N8
November 18, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this
si.com is reporting that the Mets are leaning towards going after K-Rod as their main “target” this off-season.
Yikes.
One only has to do some simple math to realize that K-Rod being added to the Mets woeful bullpen and Brad Lidge more than likely, NOT being perfect two years in a row, just might be the difference maker in the race for NL East supremacy.
I realize that it’s November and many other moves/injuries will occur in the next months (including during the season), but that was HUGE in deciding the NL East race this year.
Don’t believe me? The Phillies were 2nd in the league with 47 saves. The Mets were 5th with 43.
That alone right there was enough of a difference to make up the 3 games that separated them in the standings.
However, when looking at blown saves, the Mets were 2nd in the league with 29 of them. The Phillies? Last (best) in the leauge with 15 of them.
Yes, I realize that the Mets more than likely won some of the games that they blew saves in, and possibly even STILL recorded a save later in that same game. But still….
As for the Braves? The finished dead last in the NL with 26 saves, but were 14th (3rd best) in the NL with 18 blown saves, finishing 20 games behind the Phillies.
15 blown saves (when your team records 47 of them), isn’t that big of a deal. Recording 18 blown saves, and ONLY having 26 actual saves is pretty damn pathetic.
Perhaps the Braves should persue K-Rod. LOL! I’m sure he’s JUMP at the oportunity to jump aboard this sinking ship.
By ppaddy123
November 18, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this
By robdawg08 November 18, 2008 4:38 PM But its also shocking that the Braves are so close to being a top team (3 more good players) yet won’t (or seemingly won’t) get those three more players to be competitive.
That’s just a moronic statement. Wren has stated he WILL sign 2 starting front of the rotation pitchers and an out fielder with power. With the exception of the Yankees throwing their check book around (Sabathia and Burnett) who else has been as active as the Braves front office. Sure some minor trades have taken place, and Dempster re-signed with the Cubs (said all along that’s what he wanted), what where is the BLOCKBUSTER deal the Braves have missed out on? It hasn’t happened, Dude.
By Josh H
November 18, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this
robdawg08:
How is Escobar a five tool player?
Speed? Escobar stole 2 bases last year. He was caught stealing 5 times. Definitely not a speed guy.
Power? He hit ten homers this year. Yeah, okay, he might have 20 homer potential. But he hasn’t tapped into that yet.
Yeah, he has an arm, he can hit for average and he’s definitely a good defender. But five stars? Not quite.
By TennesseePaul
November 18, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this
Ted: Probably because you are missing the most important part in your splits. PETCO was only around since 2004. Peavy has been around since 2002. His ERA for his career away from PETCO is 3.69
Secondly, you are including his entire career. He is headed right into his prime years. The best years of his life. So, take at look at what he has done compared to the rest of the league over the last 5 seasons:
Outside PETCO | At PETCO Season Peavy League | Peavy League 2008 4.28 4.34 | 1.74 3.55 2007 2.57 4.50 | 2.51 3.40 2006 4.57 4.54 | 3.75 3.76 2005 2.98 4.27 | 2.81 3.61 2004 2.33 4.34 | 2.21 3.91 ---------------------|------------- Total 3.31 4.40 | 2.66 3.64He has been over a full run better than the rest of the league away from PETCO. Another way of saying it, in the last five years, without PETCO he is a 3.31 ERA pitcher.
Another means of looking at it, use ERA+, it is the value of a “neutral” park. He is 21% better than the league over his career. Over the last few years this number is closer to 35% better than the rest of the league.
AJ Burnett doesn’t give you that. He does take up considerable money, age a lot faster, and brings a legitimate injury history, as opposed to Peavy’s hinted at history.
By robdawg08
November 18, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this
I remember Bob Costas was interviewing at batting practice with Wade Boggs one year (Red Sox years) and Boggs was slashing balls into the gaps and all over the field for singles and doubles. Costas asked him “Can you hit for power ?” Boggs replied “Yes. But if I did hit a lot of homeruns my average would drop to around .270 to .280 and I’d rather hit .300 to .340 every year.” Then Boggs hit the next 15 of 20 pitches over the fence to prove it.
By David O'Brien
November 18, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this
You guys see the story about Cuban being accused of insider trading by the feds? Wonder if baseball owners and/or Selig might have known that was coming down the piike?
He’s biggest name accused of insider trading since Martha Stewart, whose alleged profits from it absolutely pale next to how much Cuban allegedly made (or avoided losing, however you want to put it).
And we know what happened to Martha.
By Old Timer
November 18, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this
The one item of cost that is being overlooked for Peavy is the cost of a new shortstop. When you add that cost in, Peavy is not that good of a deal financially. And that gives the Braves that much less to add to a still inadequate pitching staff and/or add to the powerless and unproductive outfield.
By Braveheart
November 18, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this
I’m coming around a bit to the idea of Burnett. If Jake was a free agent today and got a five year contract, he’d likely get 5 years, $115 million (maybe $125). Burnett’s intrinsic value based on projections is about 5 years, $65 million. Combined as free agents, they should be making around $180 million over the next five seasons.
Peavy’s income, however, over the next five years is somewhat fixed at $81 million. That gives the Braves about $100 million extra to give Burnett. What if the Braves act crazy and ultra-aggressive and blow the Yankees out of the water by offering Burnett 5 years, $100 million? The idea would be that the $30 million you save on Jake could be used to overspend on Burnett by $30 million.
It would be a helluva gamble, a reckless move the Braves never make. It would give the Braves alot of leverage with San Diego as well. Once they land Burnett, they don’t need to make the trade as much. They can always say, well, we got the one big arm we were looking for this offseason. If you don’t want to be reasonable, then, well, we’lll just go sign a few of them old timers floating around. Why will we be content to do that? ‘Cause you told us to do so with your actions in these trade negotiations. You told us that you agree with us that our young arms are so darn special that you couldn’t trade Jake without getting one or two or three of them. So, you know what? We don’t want him anymore. We’re just gonna take your advice, sign some old fogies to bridge us over to when these kids you love too much are ready to win for us. Or you can give us peavy …… but just know that you’re not getting escobar anymore
Of course,if you don’t get Jake, then you’re stuck giving Burnett $35 extra million he doesn’t deserve but, oh, friggin’ well. If he never gets better or worse, Jair will be underpaid by about $30 million the next two seasons and $50 million over the next five seasons anyway, so you’ll recover your cost there …. yeah, something like that
By Peter Mariano
November 18, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this
DOB…knowing that Escobar has some attitude problems do you think that if somehow he dosnt get traded do you think he will cause problems this year?
By Mike
November 18, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this
Hey Marv Kleeman, you’re not serious are you? Get a clue bud. This team needs to shake things up a bit. JoJo is garbage and not needed.
By Mark Cuban
November 18, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this
Trade Francoeur THIS winter. Cut bait or lose all. Oh, and I wasn’t here, k?
By TennesseePaul
November 18, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this
Braves should do all in their power to avoid K-Rod at all costs. I don’t know what to watch that guy sacrificing chickens on the mound for Atlanta. He is the most ridiculous closer to date. Lives on the edge. Had a helluva walk year in terms of saves volume, but I question him going forward. I have yet to go to an Angels game where he didn’t find a way to turn a 3 run lead into a 1 run lead with the bases loaded before a miracle play brought the game to an end. Chicken feathers every where.
By royceb
November 18, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this
If Ludwick is so good then why are the Cardinals so happy to unload him?
By Josh H
November 18, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this
robdawg08:
I’m not much of a scout. But it just seems to me that Escobar is more “quick” than he is “fast”. He can move quickly. But he just doesn’t seem to have that top end speed. Going back to 2005, he’s never had more than 7 stolen bases in a year.
I remember watching him hit a double once. He has a large stride but just doesn’t move very fast. He doesn’t hit many triples, and really doesn’t have that many doubles.
Don’t get me wrong. Escobar will usually give you a solid at bat without striking out. And he’s incredible defensively. But he’s not a speed demon or a home-run hitter.
Again, I’m not a scout and I could be wrong. Can’t comment on the Bobby Cox, Chipper Jones quotes on a 5 star status. Not going to argue there.
I really just think that I’m getting annoyed with that “5 tool player” saying getting thrown around too much. Like saying Gorkys Hernandez is a 5 tool guy. Not a knock against you in particular.
By BT
November 18, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this
Give Randy Johnson a couple of more years and he will be old enough for the Braves staff.
By ppaddy123
November 18, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this
N8, Why did the Braves have such a woeful bullpen in 08? Moylen, gone. Soriano, gone. Gonzolez missed 1/2 season. 3/5 of the starting rotation, gone. Bullpen stretched to the limit. 2009 will bring hope eternal. Everyone will start opening day tied for 1st. However, this year, the Braves will have Moylen, Soriano, Gonzolez, Ohmen (maybe) and Smoltz (hopefully) in what should be one of the toughest bullpens in the NL.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 18, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this
Raddad, the person or persons you’re referring to must be confounded by the fact that that one of the Braves’ two absolute untouchables is OF Jason Heyward, huh? DOB
Regarding the absolute untouchables, Don’t we have to throw in Freeman to have 3 true untouchables?
Hampton divorcing? Guess wife;s all upset he had to finally leave home and work…
By Josh H
November 18, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this
N8:
We didn’t have a closer until Gonzo came back. Moylan went down. We were closing by committee with Boyer, Acosta, Resop, etc. Not exactly the ideal situation.
I think Gonzo blew what, one save at the end of the year? Of course the rest of the bullpen was depleted at that point.
But you did touch on a valid point. Braves really didn’t have that many save situations last year. We had a tendency to hit and blow opponents out, but then lose lots of one run games, usually when we were behind. Have to get more consistent both in the bullpen and at the plate.
By Phillip
November 18, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this
Mike Freaking Hampton! Waiting for other offers, huh? Hampton has “stolen” money from Braves Organization for last three years - he just now is in a position to maybe possibly help the Braves - and now he’s ready to bolt! Hampton should play three more years for FREE! just to pay Braves back…….yes, I know in the real world of guaranteed contracts that it does not work that way - but that bites1!!!!
By Andrew
November 18, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this
Blow up the Braves and start fresh from the farm and trades. Get Cox and Pendelton out of there and anyone else that doesn’t fit a team approach.
Build around Jurrians and McCann and bring up the youngsters
By TennesseePaul
November 18, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this
And we know what happened to Martha.
Yes. That Billionaire avoided losing 60 grand through circumstantial evidence and wound up baking cookies in her house for a few months with an uncomfortable ankle bracelet.
I don’t think Cuban knows how to cook… food that is.
By Patrick
November 18, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this
DOB,
Did you read Bowman’s latest blog?
Why is he so contradictory to you sometimes??
By DAP
November 18, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this
If Ludwick is so good then why are the Cardinals so happy to unload him?
where do people get stuff like this? why does a player going on the trading block automatically mean “he isnt worth having or the other team wouldnt trade him?” thats not how it works in the real world.
there has been one mention of ludwick getting traded all off season. just one. no cardinal front office folks begging on thier knees for someone to take him, no offers of scott thorman for ludwick…geez.
By David O'Brien
November 18, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this
So what are you truly going to get out of Peavy at $16MM/year for 5 years (and I would expect his option to be picked up as a condition to waive his no-trade) that you might not get out of Burnett for $16MM/year for 5 years? Durability? Perhaps. Ted
You tell me. Here were their records and innings over the five seasons before 2008:
Burnett
2003: 0-2, 4.70 ERA, 23 innings
2004: 7-6, 3.68 ERA, 120 innings
2005: 12-12, 3.44 ERA, 209 innings
2006: 10-8, 3.98 ERA, 135-2/3 innings
2007: 10-8, 3.75 ERA, 135-2/3 innings
Peavy
2003: 12-11, 4.11 ERA, 194-2/3 innings
2004: 15-6, 2.27 ERA, 166-1/3 innings
2005: 13-7, 2.88 ERA, 203 innings
2006: 11-14, 4.09 ERA, 202-1/3 innings
2007: 19-6, 2.54 ERA, 223-1/3 innings.
Also, Ted, we have discussed Peavy’s home/road splits on numerous occasions here, so I can only assume you’ve not been reading the ol’ blog since all this began last month.
Anyway, yes, most here are fully aware of his home/road splits.
Hey, by the way: Derek Lowe was 9-5 with a 2.30 ERA in 17 starts this season at pitcher-friendly Dodger Stadium, and 5-6 with a 4.42 ERA in 17 starts everywhere else.
For his career, Lowe is 76-47 with a 3.26 ERA at home, and 50-60 with a 4.25 ERA on the road. Ten games under .500 with an ERA a full run higher on the road.
So how much should be made of that?
By David O'Brien
November 18, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this
Owl: Ouch, that line about Hampton…
By Darren
November 18, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this
Awwwhhh. Gates Barbeque in Kansas City. My mouth is watering just thinking about that Dave. I’m jealous. I’m from Las Vegas but spend two years in Kansas City when I was 19 and 20. I never ate better in my life.
By Braveheart
November 18, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this
How did Randy Johnson suddenly become a viable option? Is it just because he is a lefty? Because I cannot possibly think of another reason to pursue a 45 year old with a back back
$10 million, one year, 180 innings, league average ERA, 11 wins, 10 losses on an average scoring team, 12 wins, 9 losses on a 5 run scoring team. The limited years and money would give you much roster and financial flexibility next season. He wants somewhere to go to win 300. The Braves were the first team to draft him as a high schooler way back in 1982. Would be a cool way to finish the career 27 years later with the team that first drafted him (even if he never signed). But the bottomline is the huge benefit he gives in limited years and money. He’s not great anymore but doesn’t need to be. Just average will be good enough.
By Eric B
November 18, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this
To get Jake Peavy the Braves would have to trade Yunel Escobar, Jeff Locke, Gorkys Hernandez, Blaine Boyer, and Charlie Morton.
To get Francisco Liriano the Braves would have to trade Yunel Escobar, and Charlie Morton.
To get Scott Baker the Braves would have to trade Yunel Escobar, and Charlie Morton.
To get Aaron Harang the Braves would have to trade Jordan Schafer, Jeff Locke or Charlie Morton, and Blaine Boyer.
TomasIf we could actually get Harang for that price I’m all for it. we could still trade KJ or Escobar and a minor leaguer to get another arm or the outfielder need…then offer Burnett the same 5 years and 80 million to come to the NL and be dominant again with Harang and JJ at the top of the rotation. If escobar goes in a trade then sign furcal…sounds like he’ll come back, he still has a house in A town.
By skull
November 18, 2008 5:22 PM | Link to this
royceb
If Ludwick is so good then why are the Cardinals so happy to unload him?
As for your question, let me rephrase it.
If Yunel is so good then why are the Braves so happy to unload him?
I don’t advocate either but maybe it’s because each team thinks it can fulfill a bigger need in return?
Sure makes for great blogging though.
By ppaddy123
November 18, 2008 5:23 PM | Link to this
By Mike November 18, 2008 5:04 PM Hey Marv Kleeman, you’re not serious are you? Get a clue bud. This team needs to shake things up a bit. JoJo is garbage and not needed.
Guys like you really TICK me off! You’re not a fan of the game! You want to associate yourself with the best team, but when they slip, you make your judgemental statements. Truth of the matter is: JoJo probably isn’t ready for the majors. But because of the Braves desperate pitching needs of the past 2 years, he was forced to the majors. Do us all a favor and keep those “garbage ” statements to yourself!
By David O'Brien
November 18, 2008 5:23 PM | Link to this
royceb: Because they’ve got a serious middle-infield need and feel they can get by without Ludwick, and because they, like most teams, would like to trade a player when his trade value’s at its highest, which Ludwick’s is right now and might never be as high again, considering his injury history
(Trading high, as opposed to, say, trading Francoeur right now, when his value is the lowest it’s ever been.)
By MWC
November 18, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this
Philip is right on target. Iy’s been out of control too long
By Andrew
November 18, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this
How many wins could the Braves realistically expect from the Hansen if he came up next year?
By David O'Brien
November 18, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this
TennesseePaul, excellent post at 4:59. And how you make those neat charts on the blog is beyond me.
Very good point about Petco only being open since 2004, by the way. That’s always overlooked.
By dannycardwell
November 18, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this
i find it very interesting that any one would want furcal back after back surgury. seems like we already have enough problems without spending a load on a bad back. im also inclined to keep the fam intact and watch our own young arms grow at the major league level. wren sold the fans out getting rid of tex while there was still hope. i would rather go with what i have and watch them grow just as they did in 1990-1991. keep flowers too. he can learn other positions when not spelling mac behind the plate.
By Eric B
November 18, 2008 5:32 PM | Link to this
“To get Aaron Harang the Braves would have to trade Jordan Schafer, Jeff Locke or Charlie Morton, and Blaine Boyer”.
Tomas… if we could do that I’d pull the trigger in a heartbeat, not sure if the Reds would actually accept that though. Harang, despite a rocky 07, has good stuff and we could keep Escobar and trade KJ and someone else for the OF we need. After that I’d match the yankees offer for AJ. We would have kept our untouchables, one of two good CF prospects, and a top notch SS while adding two front end pitchers and a bat for the OF.
By elliwg6
November 18, 2008 5:33 PM | Link to this
tennesseepaul
excellent post. i feel like the people on this blog are split into 2 groups.
the people who know that Peavy is a good pitcher and will you any of hits stats to prove it.
the people who just think he is a Petco generated pitcher and don’t actually look at states.
hopefully you can win a few people over
By Mike Honcho
November 18, 2008 5:39 PM | Link to this
What’s with all the doom and gloom on this blog about the Braves. A sinking ship, you really can’t get any more sunk than 90 losses, after that you are just talking semantics.
I mean seriously…this past season…we were a darkhorse pick for the World Series. Is there really anyone in the National League that you feel we just can’t compete with? It would be one thing if we had the leadership of the Padres running our club, but it seems to me that the Frank Wren era is off to a good start. He is capable and has made some solid moves so far.
As far as the Yankees go, who cares?!? Is there anyone out there that really believes their theory of baseball economics and team building is actually going to win this decade? Seriously if you put money down would you bet against a hungry, young talented team like the Rays over a fat de-incentivized team like the Yankees? If you are then I would like to discuss a wager outside of the confines of this blog…
And if you seriously believe that the Braves can’t compete next year with some of the changes that we’ve been discussing ad nauseum on the Old MiB Blog…then you are miserable creatures and do not deserve the endearing sobriquet of Braves Fan.
A Braves Fan knows that Francisco Cabrera is perhaps the most clutch hitter of all time, that at any point Sid Bream can summon 4.2 40 speed to outrun Barry Bond’s arm, that Bobby Cox’s tears cure cancer but it’s too bad that he never cries, that Craig McMurtry was voted People’s Sexiest Man Alive for a reason, every Guy Fawkes day burns an effigy of Jim Leyritz, wishes that God had chosen Steve Avery’s problematic rib to give to Eve because without that injury he would have been a Hall of Famer. A Braves Fan misses the chance to ask Skip about the infield fly rule, knows that the double arm tomahawk chop done by Jane Fonda is a cultural faux pas on the level of asking a British chick to dance the Shag, actually appreciates Chipper Jones, realizes that they just didn’t enjoy the Big Three like they should have…
…and of course a Braves Fan always believes that next year is our year because we are the Atlanta mother freakin’ tomahawkin 14 straight division title winnin’…Braves.
Next year I fully expect to write the Phillies a thank you note for keeping our throne warm for a couple of years.
And I’m spent. Love, Honcho
By Braves Fan in PA
November 18, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this
I enjoy reading Dave O’brien’s comments but I think he is blinding looking at the Peavy thing.
First, I don’t think you can look at it as Peavy vs. what a free agent SP salary is. OK Peavy is cheaper than a comparable SP out there no doubt. But you have to look at what it costs to replace the other pieces being asked for, if the reports are accurate, namely what will it cost to sign a SS (much more then Escobar’s 2009 salary) then to get a #4-5 starter and a middle reliever/setup man and a top prospect. This doesn’t even consider the cost to develop equal talent that we are giving up vs. the draft pick of signing a free agent.
Second, I think GM’s are starting and will soon realize to more of degree the higher value an early stage player has vs. an older player with comparable talent. Especially as budgets and spending become more of an issue. If a GM can pay say 20-30% of the cost at one position (SS in this case) it allows them to pay market prices for a free agent at another position. Therefore I think a player in his first couple years (especially before arbitration) is worth considerably more in trade then their value as a player. I don’t have a formula (perhaps the A’s do :)) but it should add considerably to their value.
Third, unless Escobar is really terrible in the clubhouse (and I think the reports of Bobby being disenchanted with him are exaggerated to at least some degree) it will be hard to find a replacement shortstop at his level (never mind that it will cost more). So yes we may be improving at SP but we are weaker at SS. Even if they are disenchanted with Escobar t at least get more for him! He should be valued at a fraction of Peavy!
What I would do is pay 14-15 million for someone like Burnett (I know the Yankess offered more but those are Yankee dollars and they aren’t the same because of higher living costs and some players not wanting to live there). OK we give up a draft pick but we keep a GREAT cheap short stop, still have a #4-5 pitcher to use in trade and a decent middle/setup reliever (Boyer was way overworked last year)! Compare that to signing Peavy and say someone like Renteria. Those two salaries would be more then Burnett+Escobar and while I may concede Peavy is a strong SP we would be weaker at SS and there is a risk Renteria has really deteriorated. Plus we still have cost saving at SS going forward a few years and still have some pitchers that could develop along with a potential star Outfield a few years away (or good trade bait).
OK keep up the good work Dave just please don’t fall in love with Peavy too much we can do with an above SP or two and not trade away talent at desperation prices.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 18, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this
And how you make those neat charts on the blog is beyond me.
I’ve always wondered how he does that, too.
10Paul—
How do you do that? Also, how do you get that different type font?
By vic
November 18, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this
DOB- This morning Cuban said he was set up by SEC. He’s Not guilty and will prove it.
If I remember correct Martha Steward was found guilty* for lying* to jury about insider trading.
Money talks and Cuban walk. Bet on it. You are me and we’d be in Folson prison, singing JC Folson prison Blues.
By Braves Fan in PA
November 18, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this
I enjoy reading Dave O’brien’s comments but I think he is blinding looking at the Peavy thing.
First, I don’t think you can look at it as Peavy vs. what a free agent SP salary is. OK Peavy is cheaper than a comparable SP out there no doubt. But you have to look at what it costs to replace the other pieces being asked for, if the reports are accurate, namely what will it cost to sign a SS (much more then Escobar’s 2009 salary) then to get a #4-5 starter and a middle reliever/setup man and a top prospect. This doesn’t even consider the cost to develop equal talent that we are giving up vs. the draft pick of signing a free agent.
Second, I think GM’s are starting and will soon realize to more of degree the higher value an early stage player has vs. an older player with comparable talent. Especially as budgets and spending become more of an issue. If a GM can pay say 20-30% of the cost at one position (SS in this case) it allows them to pay market prices for a free agent at another position. Therefore I think a player in his first couple years (especially before arbitration) is worth considerably more in trade then their value as a player. I don’t have a formula (perhaps the A’s do :)) but it should add considerably to their value.
Third, unless Escobar is really terrible in the clubhouse (and I think the reports of Bobby being disenchanted with him are exaggerated to at least some degree) it will be hard to find a replacement shortstop at his level (never mind that it will cost more). So yes we may be improving at SP but we are weaker at SS. Even if they are disenchanted with Escobar t at least get more for him! He should be valued at a fraction of Peavy!
What I would do is pay 14-15 million for someone like Burnett (I know the Yankess offered more but those are Yankee dollars and they aren’t the same because of higher living costs and some players not wanting to live there). OK we give up a draft pick but we keep a GREAT cheap short stop, still have a #4-5 pitcher to use in trade and a decent middle/setup reliever (Boyer was way overworked last year)! Compare that to signing Peavy and say someone like Renteria. Those two salaries would be more then Burnett+Escobar and while I may concede Peavy is a strong SP we would be weaker at SS and there is a risk Renteria has really deteriorated. Plus we still have cost saving at SS going forward a few years and still have some pitchers that could develop along with a potential star Outfield a few years away (or good trade bait).
OK keep up the good work Dave just please don’t fall in love with Peavy too much we can do with an above SP or two and not trade away talent at desperation prices.
By nolie
November 18, 2008 5:51 PM | Link to this
November 18, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
I think Flowers could be with the big club come this year. Case and point Jeff Francouer played about 1/2 the season in AA and was called up and lit it up in the final months of the season.Roach
There are some significant differences between the two situations. The Braves were desperate fo an outfielder that year, they are not desperate for a catcher this year. Frenchy was gonna play full time from the start, if Mac stays healthy, Flowers would not. Outfield is an easier position to learn and to play, so on the job training in the bigs is acceptable. Catcher is the one of the toughest positions to play, it needs a lot of practice to get down pat and Flowers still needs work on it. Work he will not get playing every 5th day or so in Atlanta.
If Mac had to be out for awhile,God forbid, they might bring Flowers up if he is playing well , but as a back-up catcher it is very unlikely to happen. The guy needs to play regularly at this point. So many posters see a real young player get hot in the fall or spring and start thinking he should be up. Look how well Schafer did last fall. The list goes on and on.I’d say that there is a very small chance,barring injury, that they bring him up…and thats if they haven’t already traded him off.
I am a big Flowers fan, but he needs seasoning and continued practice at game calling too. Many young catchers grow up now days with a coach or manager calling all the pitches, right through HS and even college. Much more so than in my days as a catcher, so they most need additional work on that skill too. It might happen, but the odds are well against it.
By George S. Patton
November 18, 2008 5:52 PM | Link to this
Honcho, that’s not half bad.
By Sam
November 18, 2008 5:52 PM | Link to this
I know it’s early but doesn’t it seem that the more time that goes by San Diego gets the upper hand when other pitchers are being signed? What will it take to get this deal done? I don’t want to give the away the farm but Hanson, Morton and Escobar seem reasonable for a guy like Peavy! Heck I would through in Jo Jo if another Burnett gets taken.
By Braveheart
November 18, 2008 5:56 PM | Link to this
So which Hollywood actor is gonna play the coach who delivers the rah-rah speech Mike Honcho gave at 5:39?
After reading that 5:39, are the black and white bloggers, after days of hating each other, supposed to give each a knowing look and smile before they start dancing half naked in the lockerroom to “Ain’t No Mountain High Enough”? Will 100% Real tell Eric from Mo to give him five on the black hand side?
Wooh, that was inspirational! Would love to see and hear Daniel Day Lewis at his overacting best delivering that speech!
By Joe M.
November 18, 2008 5:56 PM | Link to this
Dempster signed with the Cubs. Check that option off the list.
From Peter Gammons yesterday:
The Braves’ deal for Jake Peavy is not dead. Sending Jose Ceda to Florida lessened the Cubs’ chances. The Yankees are not in the running at all. Frank Wren still believes the Braves will get this trade done.”
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 18, 2008 5:57 PM | Link to this
Um, I hate to say it, but the last time I checked, Mike Hampton was healthy.
Peavy on the brain, O’Brien? I mean ,really. It’s getting old.
Just for reference, Johan Santana was in the same exact situation one year ago, Then, after the Yankees and Mets dragged their feet, the Mets swooped in and stole the best lefty in the game.
Yunel Escobar is in Bobby’s doghouse. That much is evident and Cox want’s the young SS gone. Unfortunately, I think Kevin Towers is aware of the situation. The Braves are gonna have to say uncle sooner or later. Otherwise, Peavy will end up somewhere else besides San Deigo or Atlanta.
At any rate, it’s November 18th and the Braves have accomplished nothing as of yet. Just for reference, the Braves had picked up Jair Jurrjens one day after the season ended and Tom Glavine was signed November 19th. Dear Frank Wren, beggars can’t be choosers.
By Lou Vales
November 18, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this
Dear David, Please check out the Peter Gammons’ story on ESPN, The NY Times lead story in Sunday’s paper, The Washington Post story on Saturday, The Detroit Free Press stories every day, The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette story—ALL related to the DRACONIAN impact on baseball this upcomong year. Now I’m aware the Yankees are being the Yankees, BUT they are a unique entity. With the loss of 200,000 jobs in NYC due to GEM(Global Economic Meltdown) even the Mets will be resticted. It’s not only about to hit the fan, but the fan has been turned up and the nasty stuff will be landing everywhere. WHO could have ever predicted this a few months ago?? Ah, but it’s business as usual. Well, maybe for a few, it’s business as usual, but for 80 percent it’s going to be a surprise.
By tr
November 18, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this
Just because a “name” hasn’t been (or barely been) mentioned doesn’t mean that there are no other great ideas out there.
For instance, the Twins waited forever to recall a red-hot (in the high minors on an absurdly long “rehab assignment) Francisco Liriano, and might be open to a trade discussion.
With a full rotation of good young starters in the fold and an even better David Price likely to grab a spot in 2009, maybe the Rays would part with one of their surplus starters.
The point is - there are actually a LOT of good options available if we are patient and remember that very little has actually happened (Dempster signed and some supposed offers from the Yanks) yet to rearrange or give up on our team’s stated goals for the off-season!
Enjoy the process!
Worst case, at least one or two of the following is BOUND to happen: 1) Hanson pitches so well in SP that we can’t send him down to start the season; 2) Morton matures and develops; 3) Hampton is healthy, effective and affordable; 4) Chuck James’ shoulder is finally healthy and he’s back on track; 5) Reyes removes his head from whatever crevice it’s been hiding in and he delivers on his potential; 6) Smoltz shows up in camp and is a HOF starter again; 7) Glavine is healthy and motivated to finish his HOF career on a high note; 8) Hudson returns after the break and discovers that his inconsistencies were the product of an elbow problem he didn’t even realize was a problem until an MRI showed it late in the season.
And that doesn’t even include Jair Jurrjens, James Parr, Jorge Campillo, Jeff Bennett, Buddy Carlyle, or Anthony Lerew!
By Wayne
November 18, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this
Sam You just touched the “Hanson third rail” my man.
:-)
By Ebravesluvr
November 18, 2008 6:01 PM | Link to this
Mike Hampton is going through a divorce??? Give that man my number, DOB!!!
In all seriousness though, I hope we do somehow sign him for a lesser, incentive-laden contract. I think he’d be a good 4th starter for us this year. Plus, I’ve been a huge fan of him since the first year he signed with us (and his staunchest supporter when most of all other Braves fans fell by the wayside).
I can’t lose Mike AND Yunel in the same offseason :-(
By David O'Brien
November 18, 2008 6:01 PM | Link to this
Vic, good point about Cuban vis-a-vis Martha. She was found guilty of obstructing justice and lying to investigators.
Of course, if Cuban did what the feds say he did, and denies it…
Well, anyway, good point.
By ppaddy123
November 18, 2008 6:03 PM | Link to this
By Mike Honcho November 18, 2008 5:39 PM A Braves Fan knows that Francisco Cabrera is perhaps the most clutch hitter of all time, that at any point Sid Bream can summon 4.2 40 speed to outrun Barry Bond’s arm, that Bobby Cox’s tears cure cancer but it’s too bad that he never cries, that Craig McMurtry was voted People’s Sexiest Man Alive for a reason, every Guy Fawkes day burns an effigy of Jim Leyritz, wishes that God had chosen Steve Avery’s problematic rib to give to Eve because without that injury he would have been a Hall of Famer. A Braves Fan misses the chance to ask Skip about the infield fly rule, knows that the double arm tomahawk chop done by Jane Fonda is a cultural faux pas on the level of asking a British chick to dance the Shag, actually appreciates Chipper Jones, realizes that they just didn’t enjoy the Big Three like they should have……and of course a Braves Fan always believes that next year is our year because we are the Atlanta mother freakin’ tomahawkin 14 straight division title winnin’…Braves. Next year I fully expect to write the Phillies a thank you note for keeping our throne warm for a couple of years.
AMEN
And I’m spent. Love, Honcho
By brent a.
November 18, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this
I just saw DeKalb County commissioner, Elaine Boyer on the TV. If I were Kevin Towers, I wouldn’t want her either.
By Tomas
November 18, 2008 6:09 PM | Link to this
Now Kevin Towers, realized that there was not another willing to offer as much as the Braves had. With Dempster, now the Cubs have no need to trade for Peavy, and there focuse will be 2B, and the outfield. The Yankees are not willing to give Phillip Hughes, and the Angels already have 4 very good starters, and are looking for another decent starter not an ace. The Redsox, have a lot of pitching already, and would rather sign a FA before trading a lot of their good prospects for Peavy
The Cubs, Redsox, Angels, Astros, and Yankees are out of the picture. The Mets certainly don’t have the trade pieces to get Peavy.
So I see the Dodgers, Phillies, Braves, Whitesox, and Cardinals seem like the most logical landing sites for Jake Peavy.
The Dodgers are certainly interested, and they have the talent the Padres want, but the Padres would rather not trade him to an nl west rival.
The Phillies I think have the talent in the minors, to get Peavy, but I don’t think he would like to pitch in that bang box in philadelfia.
The Whitesox would want Peavy, and I think Peavy might waive his no trade clause to go to Chicago, but I don’t think they would have a good enough package to offer the Padres.
The Cardinals need a starter, Peavy would pitch for St louis but the Cardinals don’t have major league ready pitching to offer the Padres, nor a middle infielder.
The Braves need a starter, is on the nl east, Peavy would like to pitch for Atlanta, and Atlanta has the talent to give the Padre what they want.
The most logical choice is the Braves, so why the hell does Kevin Towers doesn’t just stop wasting time and agree to a deal with the Braves. They’re getting a potential allstar SS, one of the best CF prospect in the minors, Charlie Morton who will begin in the majors next year, and Blaine Boyer a relief pitcher with very good stuff.
By ppaddy123
November 18, 2008 6:09 PM | Link to this
By tr November 18, 2008 5:59 PMWorst case, at least one or two of the following is BOUND to happen: 1) Hanson pitches so well in SP that we can’t send him down to start the season; 2) Morton matures and develops; 3) Hampton is healthy, effective and affordable; 4) Chuck James’ shoulder is finally healthy and he’s back on track; 5) Reyes removes his head from whatever crevice it’s been hiding in and he delivers on his potential; 6) Smoltz shows up in camp and is a HOF starter again; 7) Glavine is healthy and motivated to finish his HOF career on a high note; 8) Hudson returns after the break and discovers that his inconsistencies were the product of an elbow problem he didn’t even realize was a problem until an MRI showed it late in the season. And that doesn’t even include Jair Jurrjens, James Parr, Jorge Campillo, Jeff Bennett, Buddy Carlyle, or Anthony Lerew!
Man! I think I need some of the stuff you’ve been smokin’!
By Nocturnal Owl
November 18, 2008 6:10 PM | Link to this
Peavy on the brain, O’Brien? I mean ,really. It’s getting old Coach
Getting old? Last time I checked Padres still had Peavy under possession and want to deal him. Old news for you chump.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 18, 2008 6:11 PM | Link to this
Welcome back DOB
By David O'Brien
November 18, 2008 6:16 PM | Link to this
She thinks she’s not proud of the affair? I’m guessing Clemens sould concur Clemens/McCready affair story
By spotts
November 18, 2008 6:18 PM | Link to this
Anybody see Phil Sheridan’s article whining about how Pujols won the MVP, even though Ryan Howard was the obvious choice?
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/sports/20081118PhilSheridan_MVPvotingisoutofwhack.html
I guess Phil forgot about Howard’s .251 average (.106 points lower than Pujols’). Or his 199 Ks (ties his own record for 2nd all time).
I seem to remember another player a few years back who lost the MVP to Pujols because of his terrible average, despite leading the league in HR and RBI.
By David O'Brien
November 18, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this
Coach, if you don’t want to read about Peavy, then skip it and just comment. But sorry, as long as it’s still possible (and in my view, it is very much so until he’s traded elsewhere), I’m going to write about it. This is the first blog I’ve written in nearly a week, and there have been a few developments in the situation since I last addressed it, as you might have noticed. To ignore the issue would be silly.
Oh, and yeah, it’s Nov. 18 and the Braves haven’t done a trade or signed a free agent. Did I miss something? Have a lot of free agents already signed, or a lot of trades already been finalized? What big deals have been finalized? How many free agents have signed with a team other than the one they were on in 2008?
By Robert
November 18, 2008 6:29 PM | Link to this
Do you think since the Padres might NEED to trade Peavy to Atlanta (no other decent package offered) that we could insist they take Kelly Johnson instead of Yunel Escobar.
By stop with hampton
November 18, 2008 6:30 PM | Link to this
Please stop with the Hampton talk. Why should the Braves ever plan on having him in the rotation. If he is healthy then let him compete in spring training. I know he can’t control injuries, but lets stay off of the Hampton bus. I’m not fooled by someone that pitched a few weeks out of several years. And oh by the way, those weeks came as the last few weeks of a contract, when he was needing to get another contract. Not calling him a faker, but seems he get tough all of a sudden. Please don’t count on him as part of the rotation unless he can win a spot in spring training!
By Couch Tater
November 18, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this
Sorry if this has already been posted, but there is a radio interview with Kevin Towers on Gaslamp Ball. (you can listen while you blog here)
By Nocturnal Owl
November 18, 2008 6:43 PM | Link to this
There you go Coach have some more Peavy news. Its fun! Looks like others are talking about Peavy too. Here is what Heyman said today:
Braves GM Frank Wren bowed out of the long-running trade talks involving Padres star pitcher Jake Peavy a few days ago, but Wren didn’t appear to completely shut the door on Peavy and at least one National League executive said he still believes the Braves remain the most likely destination for Peavy
“He’ll wind up a Brave or Padre,” that exec predicted.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 18, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this
Couch Tater Looks like Mark won’t finish the Peavy talks after all…Ha
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 18, 2008 6:46 PM | Link to this
Nolie @ 5:51—
Excellent points!
If Mac had to be out for awhile…
Oh! I hope not…
By David O'Brien
November 18, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this
Just learned that Schafer hurt a finger in winter ball, got hit by a pitch, and he’s come home. Not broken, but it’s banged up and he’s supposed to rest it three weeks and then rehab it a few weeks.
He’s done for the winter, but he did himself a favor by going to play down there, left a good impression with the bosses. Wren told me Schafer played well while he was in Mexico.
Personally, I’ve just got a feeling he’ll win the CF job this spring. I could be wrong, for sure, but I’ve got that feeling.
By MizzouBravesFan
November 18, 2008 6:53 PM | Link to this
From Kevin Towers TODAY:
*So where does that leave the Padres?
Towers wouldn’t rule out the possibility of circling back around to the Braves, who last week said they were moving on after a deal couldn’t be reached.
“You never know … we certainly made more progress with them,” Towers said. “We were able to ID and agree upon a large part of the package.”*
LOL Towers is crawling back already because there is no other place to turn to…the Dempster signing ended the Cubs’ chances.
The entire “Yankees or Angels” bluff (that’s all it ever was) has been blown out of the water.
The Braves have always been and will continue to be the best option…Wren knows this…Towers knows this…Peavy and Axelrod know this. They’re all just playing the game.
By stop with hampton
November 18, 2008 6:55 PM | Link to this
Not meaning to sound as if I hate Hampton, but we counted on him being healthy last year. How did that work out? How about the year before? Really, missed that one too? As for the Peavy talk, I’m a believer that he will end up in Atlanta. And I don’t think he is going to block that because of losing Yunel. If Wren shows the grit to get Peavy, why would he stop short of getting what he said he wanted this off season. I’m sure Peavy could understand that also. DOB, just moved to Ohio and started reading your blog to help with my sports addiction. Keep up the good work! Its much appreciated!
By Joe M.
November 18, 2008 6:57 PM | Link to this
Mark Bowman: “Mike Hampton, Jon Garland, Randy Wolf and Oliver Perez are among the other free agent starting pitchers who could prove to be profitable gambles.”
Wow. What a downgrade.
I’d really rather the Braves not waste money on Oliver Perez. The Braves would be much better off saving that money for a July trading deadline acquisition or for next year’s offseason if they can’t find some other way to spend it. A multi-year signing for Oliver Perez would bring nothing but regret.
By Couch Tater
November 18, 2008 7:01 PM | Link to this
What was Roger Clemens song to enter the game? I’m guessing Trashy Women by Confederate Railroad.
By Joe M.
November 18, 2008 7:01 PM | Link to this
Towers wouldn’t rule out the possibility of circling back around to the Braves, who last week said they were moving on after a deal couldn’t be reached.
“You never know … we certainly made more progress with them,” Towers said. “We were able to ID and agree upon a large part of the package.”
“Please Frankie, I’m sorry. I know I jerked you around, but i can change. We can make this work.”
By David O'Brien
November 18, 2008 7:03 PM | Link to this
Wren said they’ve had a few talks, good communication, with Hampton’s agent, and that they don’t think he’ll do anything (sign anywhere) without Braves getting a chance to make a competitive offer or counter or whatever.
Wren also said they aren’t discouraged about the pitching market, said he doesn’t think there are going to be a rash of signings immediately, that there’s time, etc.
And when I asked if he’s had any communication with Towers in the last couple days, he said no.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 18, 2008 7:05 PM | Link to this
MizzouBravesFan LOL Towers is crawling back already
Funny and true!
Interesting how the larger part of package has been “ID” This has been a crazy roller coaster ride for sure.
DOB I’m with you Schafer plays in 09
By Donnie
November 18, 2008 7:09 PM | Link to this
DOB - Good reminder that there are many SP options available. What about the Rays as a potential trading partner? I’ve read rumors that Sonnanstine or Jackson might be available. Most of the discussion i’ve read has Tampa looking for outfielders, but they also need a closer. Perhaps a package around Soriano, BJ, and maybe a prospect might be of interest to the Rays. Sonnanstine looked like a very promising young hurler during the playoffs.
By ncscoots
November 18, 2008 7:11 PM | Link to this
I think Schafer could win the CF job at ST, too, if he shows he can hit lefties the least little bit. He looked OK, not great, against LHP late in his minor league season, but his winter stats show he had some more trouble down in Old Mexico (only a handful of AB, though, so it’s hard to draw too many inferences). A month at AAA probably wouldn’t hurt, but the other CF options surely don’t excite.
By rbfromTN
November 18, 2008 7:15 PM | Link to this
First, I really appreciate DOB’s blogs and so forth. Just the fact that Wren called him while he was in Block-freakin-buster to give him a scoop that none of us are afforded is in and of itself pretty cool (p.s. how do I get a job like that? maybe on the wrong path seeing as though I’m in Law School and all but oh well) … Furthermore, it has come to my attention that the Bravos will be a good team next year no matter if they get Peavy or not you see if they don’t they will then turn around and trade Yunel to somebody else (I promise they are already conjuring up something to this extent and as soon as something looks promising the Fathers will come back into the fold)
My guess is that Yunel ends up with somebody in the AL … heck I’ll even narrow it down from there and say the AL Central (Tigers or White Sox … Look for a Bonderman and Thames package going to the ATL or a Vazquez and Dye package)
Both pitchers are a downgrade from Peavy no doubt but Wren is still wet behind his ears as GM of the Braves and JS is still sitting right behind him he must do something to make a decent splash this winter (not meant to be disrespectful at all just the truth … he shouldn’t have laid out his plans “i need this this and this” before the offseason started )
By Frank
November 18, 2008 7:15 PM | Link to this
Hey Mr. O’Brien,
I live 20 miles east of Lawrence in a little farming community here in Kansas. When I read that you were going to be here in my home state…I thought…”WOW, very cool. A famous sports writer will here in Kansas and in the next town over to where I live”.
Anyway, why doesn’t Mr. Wren just get off his kister and get this done with Jakey. This could end up being another 1993. The year they signed Maddux from the Cubs.
And for all intense purposes, I wouldn’t mind at all if they resigned Hampton but please, PLEASE get rid of Jo, Jo and Mr. Boyer. They both can’t pitch to save their rear-ends.
By BrandonS
November 18, 2008 7:17 PM | Link to this
I just wish this mess would hurry and be over.. And thanks DOB for the blog and welcome back…Surely there is a pitcher out there that we can get without trading so many prospects…What do you think DOB??? Thoughts anyone?
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 18, 2008 7:19 PM | Link to this
DOB Just learned that Schafer hurt a finger in winter ball, got hit by a pitch…
Ugh…Those cann be problems…
Three weeks of rehab for a finger? Dang…must be banged up but good!
By Mike
November 18, 2008 7:20 PM | Link to this
Guys like you really TICK me off! You’re not a fan of the game! You want to associate yourself with the best team, but when they slip, you make your judgemental statements. Truth of the matter is: JoJo probably isn’t ready for the majors. But because of the Braves desperate pitching needs of the past 2 years, he was forced to the majors. Do us all a favor and keep those “garbage ” statements to yourself!
Hey genius, I’m not a fan of the game?? Really? I live and die with the Braves every night, so do me a favor and don’t tell me what I am or am not. I’ve forgotten more about baseball then you’ll ever know. You think JO JO is a good pitcher, fine. You’re wrong, but fine. This team will miss the playoffs again unless we add two upper tier pitchers to the rotation. Look at what we have right now..JJ, JO-JO, Morton, and Campillo. Give me a break, trade Reyes and Morton immediately and get some vets in here with a clue. Morton may someday be a solid pitcher, but we can’t afford to wait around for it to happen. There are so many jag offs on here it’s amazing. Half the dopes here don’t have a clue about the sport.
By Bravenate
November 18, 2008 7:28 PM | Link to this
Braves have 3 years out of the playoffs and all those 3 years management has been saying that they are building the team to win now, why don’t just take a rest let the farm develop one or two years, give them a seasoning and see the product out of the farm?
If JS has keeped Matt Harison and Elvis Andrews, an Salty, could you imagine a rotation of JJJ, Hanson, Harrison, a free agent signing and Campillo/Morton, JoJo for next seasson? Hudson could join them in 2010.
With Elvis moved to second, KJ used to land the left fielder (Ludwick), Salty at first, Yunuel at SS and Chipper at Third and McCann at C, with an outfield of Frenchy, Schaffer and Ludwick, this is a young and talented team to compete for years.
Don’t trade the prospects, the braves have won 14 titles in a row and now we have only 3 years out of competition, I can wait 1 more to see the next wave take the field and win the division again.
Don’t be so desperated, why start with all this win now mode when we have not the pieces to win, why throw the farm to get one player, even if is the best pitcher, one player never is going to win the championship, remember the Texeira trade, it was supouseed to get us to the playoffs for two years and what happened?
Let Yunel grow not as the corner stone of the braves but as one more piece of the team, with McCann, Yunel and Schaffer Atlanta has a very solid column in the center of the field, Kotchman and Francouer has brigth futures, Kelly or Prado can handle the second base, FW needs to start thinking in landing a 3B prospect and a left fielder and let the JJJ, Hanson, Morton, JoJo, Medlen, Marek, Locke, grow and stop being prospects to become players.
By Nelson
November 18, 2008 7:28 PM | Link to this
DOB; Please give me a good reason why the Braves wants to get rid of Yunel Escobar, an almost five tool player!!!!, even for a good pitcher that could be injured (you never know OK) last year was a disaster, not only the Braves but all the Teams had a bunch of injuries! Please explain , does he have problem with somebody in the Team or is just Bobby??
By Wayne
November 18, 2008 7:30 PM | Link to this
Frank I bet you can’t look at a players seasonal stats “to save your rear-end” either.
While I will be the first to admit that both Reyes and Boyer had below average numbers for the season, Boyer had a very good first half, then got over used in the second half. JoJo, while stinking it up for half his starts, was anywhere from average to exceptional for the other half of his starts.
Now, this doesn’t mean they will be all stars next season, but they certainly CAN pitch, just not consistently (yet?).
Blanket statements make you look like you don’t know how to use your computer…
By Tomas
November 18, 2008 7:33 PM | Link to this
I don’t get it. Why are the Braves not ready to gamble on star pitchers, but they were willing to gamble on a 42yr old Glavine.
Really the Braves never get a premium free agent. The only one was Greg Maddux, but that was 15 years ago.
The way the Braves do bussines is obtain players by trade, then try to resign them.
I want Wren to gamble, not on Ben Sheets(he and Hampton may have a bet on), Randy Wolf, Mike Hampton, Jon Garland, Randy Johnson, Curt Schilling, or other old guys(36 or more).
I want the Braves to gamble on Aj Burnett, offer more money than the Yankees. Does damn Yankees have a monopoly going, they can sign anyone they want. I want Wren to be decisive, focuse on one pitcher in the FA market and give him the best contract in the market.
By LKS
November 18, 2008 7:34 PM | Link to this
I am kind of confused. All year long Bobby was RAVING at what an amazing player Escobar was (and is). What changed? Something drastically had to have happened for Bobby to want Esco gone. The stuff I am reading now pretty much implies that Esco will not be playing for the braves next year. I just want to know what happened to make this change. I don’t think a little attitude in the clubhouse would do the trick. Esco ruffled someone’s feathers and I am really interested to find out what it is.
By BrandonS
November 18, 2008 7:36 PM | Link to this
Hey MIKE, Chill out !!!! I eat sleep and breathe Atlanta Braves, they are second in my life only too Jesus Christ . But the people on here may not follow as closely as you and I… JoJo has an awesome arm and yes has an abundance of talent but you have to admit he has alot of work to do….So let these people have thier American right which is free speech..
By Nocturnal Owl
November 18, 2008 7:41 PM | Link to this
How many more years is Bobby Cox the manager and the private assistant G.M.?
By Wayne
November 18, 2008 7:53 PM | Link to this
Tomas Will you promise not to complain if the Braves overpaid for Burnett and he ended up missing about 1/3 or 1/2 of his contracted starts?
Not accusing, just wondering. Lots of folks were all for the Hampton signing a few years back, but now it is rare you can get a decent comment about him. Instead we have bloggers calling him a “faker” and saying he “tanked” and sat on his contract.
I can feel for Frank Wren and his team, as dealing for pitching is such an iffy proposition. You are damned if you do, and damned if you don’t it seems.
I wouldn’t mind having Burnett, but not at any price. I think if Peavy can be had for the right package, he would be a much better (lower) risk than a guy like Burnett.
By Nelson
November 18, 2008 7:55 PM | Link to this
GOOD LKS!!!!, this is exactly the point!, we the fans who pay for the tickets and TV subscriptions deserve a little more respect and an explanation. Bad decisions are sinking this team, Esco (as you named him, I like it) is a great player and still very young, probably he is telling the truth about some decisions Bobby took, specially when he chose Corky over Peña, and the old man is mad about him. By the way we need a younger manager too!! as badly as a good pitcher!!!!!
By Bobbymahlon
November 18, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this
DOB: Why do you think Schafer is going to win the center field slot, what was wrong with Josh Anderson after all he batted 294,stole bases and covered alot of ground in the outfield. If he did that over a full season playing along side up a normal Franceour and last years Ludwick we would have a pretty good outfield, don’t you agree.
By ouzts
November 18, 2008 7:59 PM | Link to this
dave do yourself a favor and get to athens for centro-matic and south san gabriel this weekend.
i hope the braves can hang on to yunel…
ouzts
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 18, 2008 8:01 PM | Link to this
DOB, when you visit Kauai, where do you stay…North, South, East, West? I am sure you go all over the island as it only takes 2.5 hours or so to drive the whole thing. Have you done the helicopter tour? I bet you have rented a Harley and driven the Waimea canyon!!
By KC Native
November 18, 2008 8:03 PM | Link to this
DOB, I’m SOOO disappointed in you. How could you possibly pick Gates BBQ over Arthur Bryants?? Oh the humanity! I guess you must have grown up in the ritzy Overland Park area to explain that.
By Tomas
November 18, 2008 8:06 PM | Link to this
Wayne I’d be prepared to accept those concequences.
I very well know Aj Burnett wont remain healthy for 5 years, but if he pitches 100 games in 5 years I’d consider that a success. That is an average of 20 starts per year. And he already had Tommy John surgery, so we don’t have to worry him need to take a full year off and have TJ.
By MiamiBeachBravesFan
November 18, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this
Let’s see. Jake Peavy with elbow tendinitis for Yunel Escobar, Blaine Boyer, Gorkys Hernandez, and either Charlie Morton or Jo-Jo Reyes. And it’s the Padres that have to shed salary - desperately?
Is that with, or without AstroGlide, Mr. Wren?
By JimD
November 18, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this
From: Bravenate
why don’t just take a rest let the farm develop one or two years, give them a seasoning and see the product out of the farm?
*If JS has keeped Matt Harison and Elvis Andrews, an Salty, *
Don’t be so desperated, why start with all this win now mode when we have not the pieces to win, why throw the farm to get one player,
it was supouseed to get us to the playoffs
Do what?!?!
By Deep Throat
November 18, 2008 8:24 PM | Link to this
I want the Braves to gamble on Aj Burnett, offer more money than the Yankees. Does damn Yankees have a monopoly going, they can sign anyone they want. I want Wren to be decisive, focuse on one pitcher in the FA market and give him the best contract in the market.
One would think and hope if the Braves weren’t going to overpay in prospects to get an ace like Peavy, they’d be damn well prepared to overpay in cash. But that is not the case. They’re not getting Lowe, Burnett or Demster. Heck, they could afford CC Sabathia if they wanted; they have 40+ million to spend and the Yankees’ “huge offer” is 6YRS/140M, or 23.3 million per year…the Braves could beat that if they wanted. Don’t let them lie to you that they “can’t afford it”, the Braves can afford Sabathia, they just don’t want to.
So which painfully unexciting, old and/or mediocre pitcher(s) will the Braves end up signing? Oliver Perez? Randy Wolf? Jon Garland?
By matt
November 18, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this
Ouzts, I agree. I lived in Athens for 13 years and now live in south GA. I wish I was still there so I could make it to that Centro-matic show. I saw them a few years ago at Tasty World in Athens. Great band!
By tr
November 18, 2008 8:26 PM | Link to this
By ppaddy123 (6:09 PM post)
Because I think that there may be options we haven’t considered yet, including a possible internal option or two, to fill out our rotation, you figure I must be smoking something!?!?!
If that’s the case, what are you even doing here? If everything is so hopeless maybe you should jump on somebody else’s bandwagon.
By Dadgum
November 18, 2008 8:39 PM | Link to this
I have eaten BBQ in KC at both Arthur Bryants and another spot out I believe Stateline Rd. Not sure could have been Gates but don’t think so. In any event it was FAR BETTER than Bryants. Name escapes me, obviously, but I did buy some of their sauce.
As long as I don’t know the score DVR works for me but would rather watch it live of course.
Until college football perfects their post-season package they are going to play 2nd fiddle to the NFL and college basketball. I still honestly can’t believe that the BCS has survived and that ESPN just signed a coverage package through 2013. This at the same time the Div 1AA (still call it that regardless of what it is called now)will be moving to a 20 team playoff to conclude the week prior to the BCS game. Now exactly how much water do you think the college presidents stance holds now. Division 1 college football has the worst season-ending system of all major sports both college and pro. An absolute joke. To make it worse, just watch, Notre Dame will end up in the Gator Bowl with 5 losses. Yeah that bowl package is wonderful isn’t it.
I digress. If Peavy is still in the works then so is Furcal. Still can’t see Peavy here without Furcal and hopefully that will all get done. With Kotchman at 1st, Prado at 2nd, Furcal at SS, Chipper at 3rd, and Mac at C that is a pretty stout defense. We’ll see. The Braves need Peavy in the worst way and I think with the prospect of losing out on the free agent bidding Wren may look the most vulnerable.
Rock on…..Go Jackets!!
By bravesfaninmetsland
November 18, 2008 8:39 PM | Link to this
DOB:
Hahaha just as I was logging on to tell you today when SI’s Jon Heyman was on WFAN telling everyone that at the end of the day Peavy was going to be a Brave, you beat me to it witha blog (guess that’s why you do what you do and I don’t). he outlined all the reasons you just did, and basically said the Padres aren’t getting a better offer then the one the Braves laid out, and eventually they’d see the light.
Gotta warm up and get ready for The Shield. Everyone.. FX at 10 don’t miss!!!
By ouzts
November 18, 2008 8:44 PM | Link to this
i’m driving from atlanta, matt. i saw south san gabriel once at sxsw, LOVE those songs! centro-matic comes around more often but my favorite thing going. GO BRAVES!
By BrandonS
November 18, 2008 8:44 PM | Link to this
I know i will get ribbed and grouched at but what about Pedro Martinez?? I think he would be fairly reasonable money wise and he has a bit left in the tank?
By Tomas
November 18, 2008 8:47 PM | Link to this
The Braves have a significant interest in Derek Lowe, reports Mark Bowman of MLB.com. Beyond Lowe, Atlanta may look next at Jon Garland, Randy Wolf, or Oliver Perez. Bowman categorizes the members of this group as potentially “profitable gambles.”
This means they wont outbid Aj Burnett’s offer. Please then sign Derek Lowe.
Jon Garland is a number 5 starter. What is so special about him, his fastball/sinker barely reaches 88mph, and has a slow curve. Signing him would be like signing Livan Hernandez. They give you a lot of inning but with a big ERA, and a LOT of hits.
Randy Wolf is a number 4 starter.
Oliver Perez is a number 3 starter.
Compare Jon Garland stats this year, and Livan Hernandez in 2007.
Jon Garland 2008: 32GS 14-8 with a 4.90 ERA, 237 hits, 90 SO, in 197 IP.
Livan Hernandez 2007: 33GS 11-11 with a 4.93 ERA, 247 hits, 90 SO, in 204 IP. He was realesed by the Twins this year.
Please whatever you do Wren don’t sign Jon Garland.
By Jody
November 18, 2008 8:55 PM | Link to this
I have heard that the Braves are looking for a BIG BAt to add to the team.What are there options?and who are they looking at?
By SteveInRaleigh
November 18, 2008 9:00 PM | Link to this
What’s the big deal about AJ Burnett? Sure, he strikes out a bunch of guys, but he racks up pitches and walks, forces a manager to work his pen, and is injury prone.
Braves are better off running their young pitchers out there and developing them than spending big dough on AJ. Let the Yankees shoot their wad, tie up their payroll, and end up with another Carl Pavano. That’s what Burnett is. He’s Carl Pavano 2.0, and the Yankees can have him.
The Rays made the world series this year by taking some lumps and giving these young guys innings, not dealing them away for over-valued veterans. That’s actually how the Rays GOT a lot of their players.
By NoJeavy
November 18, 2008 9:00 PM | Link to this
Just what if..we 1)Sign Lowe. 2) Let JJJ prosper. 3) Stretch out Soriano (started before, if healthy) 4)Sign Hamp 5) Try Hanson…Then Maybe for depth…Campillo, JoJo, Bennett, Glav etc
By MiamiBeachBravesFan
November 18, 2008 9:08 PM | Link to this
I just had a thought. If the Peavy going rate is Escobar-Boyer-G. Hernandez-Morton or Reyes, why can’t the Padres throw in Khalil Greene?
Maybe the Clemson kid will find the southern home cooking better than fish tacos.
By Andrew
November 18, 2008 9:13 PM | Link to this
A post a while ago mentioned the possibility of the tigers trading Bonderman or Thames … what is the real possibility of the tigers making a deal?Is that even being tossed a round on the market and what would it take to get that done?
By Jody
November 18, 2008 9:15 PM | Link to this
What Happen to Marcus Giles? Didn’t he got to the Padres?I didn’t see him all year.
By Salty Dawg
November 18, 2008 9:27 PM | Link to this
DOB
I don’t know how you do it sir. Reading this blog sometimes makes me feel like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day. Same questions asked over and over and over…
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 18, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this
Jody What Happen to Marcus Giles?
I’m not sure I know what happened myself.
By JimD
November 18, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this
Let’s see if I remember the Giles story over the last 2 yrs.
When let go by Braves, he signed a 1 yr contract with the Padres, but did very poorly. They non-tendered him at the conclusion of the season.
Then in 2008 he signed a minor leagues deal with the Rockies but was cut during spring training. Then the Dodgers offered him a minor league deal which he at first accepted, then changed his mind and declined.
So he did not play last year.
By jed
November 18, 2008 9:46 PM | Link to this
dob
were you impressed with gates bbq? i kept hearing great things about jack stack, gates and arthur bryant’s when i was there. went to jack stack, had the burnt ends and, man, it was unreal! i grew up in georgia surrounded by very good bbq. had east carolina bbq recently, which i just find overrated. but that kansas city style—especially the burnt ends—was something special.
By mbatl
November 18, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this
Giles was non-tendered by the Braves before the ‘07 season. He signed with San Diego, and had a bad year and got waived. Someone (LA or Arizona, I think) offered him a minor league deal last year, but he declined it at the last minute.
Apparently, he’s looking to make a comeback. He’s still only about 30. If no one gives him a major league deal, I think the Braves should offer him a minor league contract. Don’t know if he’ll ever be good again, but he’d be a pretty nice piece to have playing up I-85 at Gwinnett, just in case.
By Marty
November 18, 2008 9:56 PM | Link to this
So is there actually some real possibility of Furcal signing here, or are you folks just blowing smoke again?
By JoeBrave
November 18, 2008 10:05 PM | Link to this
Is it me?? or does Minnesota’s Delmon Young wreak of Claudell Washington???
By Lil Bit
November 18, 2008 10:06 PM | Link to this
DOB,,
Any news on how Moylan’s rehab is going? My best friend adores him and I would love to suprise her with some news :D.
By wide right
November 18, 2008 10:08 PM | Link to this
please rate this starting pitching staff:
-Jurrjens -Hanson -Campillo -Glavine -Hampton
By Nocturnal Owl
November 18, 2008 10:12 PM | Link to this
Marty Furcal will be expensive but is the best FA option. I think we should look into hard but Furcal might have to wait. We have cash. How about all that Hampton Insurance money, where is that…anyways here is what Bowman had on Furcal: That’s the sense agent Paul Kinzer has gained through the multiple conversations he’s had with the Braves about Furcal over the past week. When he told his client about his initial contact with the Braves, Kinzer said Furcal was “shocked and excited.” The 31-year-old shortstop, who played for the Braves from 2000-2005, has maintained a residence in Atlanta and he’s always considered manager Bobby Cox to be a fatherly figure
Haven’t talked in a few days? Towers sounds desperate and beaten. Break his arm and steal Peavy away from him. Towers looked outside and nothing came by.
Lowe will be the main option if Peavy plan fails. At some point the Yankees need to get stepped on with a higher offer.
No thanks on O. Perez, Wolf, or even Garland. How did Bowman manage to get all three in one sentence.
By Joe M.
November 18, 2008 10:16 PM | Link to this
please rate this starting pitching staff:
Jurrjens -Hanson -Campillo -Glavine -Hampton
Fourth place.
By George S. Patton
November 18, 2008 10:17 PM | Link to this
please rate this starting pitching staff:
-Jurrjens -Hanson -Campillo -Glavine -Hampton -wide right
Rated R for disturbing images.
By Maybe Consider
November 18, 2008 10:17 PM | Link to this
I have no way of knowing. Virtually anything I say is speculation. But consider this as a possibility.
Maybe Peavy did prefer the Cubs. Peavy can give the Pads a list of names that includes the Toledo Mud Hens if he wants, he still has to give final approval for any trade. Just because he allows the Pads to have talks with the 5 teams on his first list, doesn’t mean he agrees to be traded to any of them. Perhaps Towers knows without a doubt that the Braves are the Pads best option, but he’s getting grumblings from Peavy’s agent that Jake isn’t ready to approve a trade to the Braves so he (Towers) needs to try and work something out with the Cubs, the team Peavy wants to join. In that case, Towers moves away from what is likely his best offer to try and appease Peavy. After all, it sounds like the Pads are going to have to dump Peavy no matter what they say publicly. So maybe Towers isn’t the idiot we all think he is. Maybe he’s just trying to move Peavy for a decent return but realizes Peavy ain’t going anywhere unless Jake says so.
The above scenario may not be the case, but does anyone else have a better reason why a rational GM would continue to try to work a deal with a team that has an obviously inferior trade package to the one the Braves had on the table? A trade that would require involving at least one maybe two other teams besides the Cubs putting together a package that still might not come close to what the Braves had to offer?
GM’s who have an attractive commodity like Peavy want the best return they can get for their product. Who can blame them? Do some get greedy? Sure they do but the disparity between the Braves offer and all other potential deals that have been leaked is huge. Too big a gap to be simply explained away as a GM trying to get a better deal.
Now that the Cubs signed Dempster, maybe it comes back to the Braves. But in the end, Peavy still has to agree to the trade. And I’m not fully convinced that if the Pads want the Braves, that Peavy will automatically approve the deal.
By wide left
November 18, 2008 10:18 PM | Link to this
please rate this starting pitching staff:
-Peavy-Jurrjens-Hampton-Campillo-Taz/Hanson
By fastasballs
November 18, 2008 10:20 PM | Link to this
I think the Braves still end up getting Peavy. The Cubs resigning Dempster should about seal the deal. He either stays in San Diego or he is going to be a Brave.
Between Peavy’s own no trade clause & other teams lacking the talent to trade for him I just don’t see this not getting done. Actually if anything Wren is in a much better spot with the Cubs out of the running.
I do think if Peavy is obtained that Furcal is signed, well that is if Escobar is traded, but by all accounts he was the center piece of any deal to begin with.
The Braves have been lacking for a lead off hitter since Furcal left. His back is of some concern, but I would rather roll the dice with an injury for a proven guy with the glove & bat than go with someone unproven.
This team is building for 2010 & on as far as I’m concerned. I think there are too many holes to be filled this winter for them to compete in 2009.
The talent on the farm is starting to show with Hanson, Flowers, Schaefer, Gorkys, Medlin, Freeman & Heyward, just to name a few. 2010 & forward looks really good to me. With the high draft pick this coming June the Braves should be able to acquire another top talent to throw in that mix of names.
I could live with a rotation in 2010 of Peavy, JJ, Hanson, Hudson & Medlin. If Hudson had not needed TJ surgery that rotation may have become a reality this season
By Tim
November 18, 2008 10:23 PM | Link to this
Marcus Giles didn’t play last year. He had a change to sign with the Dodgers and prove himself at Triple A but decided against it. Apparently he’s hoping to catch on with someone during spring training. That is what I have read.
By semiballcoach
November 18, 2008 10:24 PM | Link to this
wide right…don’t like campillo and gl;avine back to back
By Lou Vales
November 18, 2008 10:25 PM | Link to this
Always Jaking Burnett Is A Dog!!!!!! PLEASE ask ANY of the beat writers who have covered him on a daily basis. He has NEVER won a meaningful game in his life. The Nipple Ringed Warrior is even overdue for a trip to Birmingham, Alabama—His Home Away From Home. I have a Pembroke Welsh Corgi and she is less of a dog and has won as many BIG games as Adam James Burnett. Adam has the potential to make Mike Hampton look like “hoss” Radbourne. AJ Burnett!! Lunacy!!
By mbatl
November 18, 2008 10:31 PM | Link to this
I’m not sure we should dismiss Ollie Perez so quickly. I know all the downside, but he’s young and lefthanded, and unless he just falls off a cliff, could be traded down the road (even bad lefties who can strike people out are in demand).
He absolutely dominated the Phillies last year, for whatever that’s worth… 1 ER in 26 innings; also pitched well against the Marlins … 2.23 era in 36+ innings.
He’s also dominant against LH hitting, and the Mets are heavily left-handed.
Not saying he should be the top target, but might be worth considering.
Peavy, Jurrjens, Perez, Hampton and Hanson… might just have a chance with that rotation.
By Wayne
November 18, 2008 10:31 PM | Link to this
Tomas If I am the Braves, no way do I sign Burnett if I truly believed he would only be able to make 100 starts in 5 years, especially not 5 years at 90 million.
I would prefer to pay Garland 1/2 that amount for 4 years for 135-140 starts.
Not that I am advocating getting a guy like Garland, but I would prefer his consistency over Burnett’s injuries, again, if you were confident Burnett would only give you an average of 20 starts per year.
Personally, I prefer Peavy and Randy Johnson, with Mike Hampton thrown in for good measure. I think Tom Glavine is finished, but who knows. I think Glavine is more of an unknown than Hampton.
later, my friend….
By siskel
November 18, 2008 10:33 PM | Link to this
Braves are missing out on AJ, missed out on Dempster, and bailed out on Peavy. Look out for our new rotation of JJ, Garland, Wolf, Campillo, and Carlyle. Are Horacio Ramirez and Chris Reitsma available?
By Joe M.
November 18, 2008 10:35 PM | Link to this
Oh my, the Cubs are targeting Royals’ right fielder Mark Teahen. Hopefully they get him and the Royals offer the Braves something, anything, for Francoeur.
By mbatl
November 18, 2008 10:35 PM | Link to this
*Marcus Giles didn’t play last year. * You’re right, of course, Tim. I lost a year somewhere along the line… still think he’d be a good guy to have at Gwinnett if he doesn’t have better prospects.
By Saltywoody
November 18, 2008 10:45 PM | Link to this
*please rate this starting pitching staff:
-Jurrjens -Hanson -Campillo -Glavine -Hampton*
Rated PG…Please God, don’t let that be it.
By Steve from OH
November 18, 2008 10:50 PM | Link to this
I wouldn’t mind signing O. Perez if we can land Peavy or sign a Burnett/Lowe type first. Of course, I’d rather take Peavy AND Burnett/Lowe, but if we acquire a legit ace then we can sign a lesser guy like Perez to fill a role that he’s better suited for: #3 starter.
I’m not cool with signing O.Perez as our top offseason acquisition, because that ain’t cutting it.
Wayne, consistency is overrated if the player in question is bad. I’d much rather take a gamble on Burnett because he at least gives you the oppotunity of win every time he takes the hill. Not so with Garland, IMO. If anything, Garland is consistently bad, or at least below-average. There really isn’t any way to justify giving Garland any kind of long-term deal whatsoever.
Wondering how we’ll fill the LF void. Trading KJ for Ludwick is a bad idea and the only other trade option I can think of is Spilborghs. BFIR, what do you think it’ll take to get him?
By Lovely Bloggist
November 18, 2008 10:51 PM | Link to this
All Wren’s promises are fat lies. While he has been glued to a Peavy deal he had NO intention of sealing, he’s let all the REAL talent slip away.
Look forward to a rotation of Jo Jo Reyes, (Jurrjens will still be hurt), Greg Glavine, Charlie Merton, Moylan, and fat-boy Sabathia.
Should have let Peavy go and traded for Burnett before the Yankees got involved with all this. And Randy Wolf is NOT the answer in left field. His power numbers are AWFUL. Better off sticking with Wagner.
Even if Ted Cuban DOES buy us back, there’s no way to guarantee Tuesday. This is garbage. I love Judy McRae.
By Bo
November 18, 2008 11:02 PM | Link to this
Some of you people just don’t read what DOB writes. He tells us what the Braves and Wren is doing and some of you still say the same things over and over.
Don’t stop Believin’ DOB is in the best position to know the facts. Keep up the good work DOB and welcome back. Did you bring the cold with you?
By Flustered Fan
November 18, 2008 11:03 PM | Link to this
Oh “Chief”, I’ll probably get torn up for this, but, I still think giving up the farm for Peavey is a bad move. Wren had it right the first time when he pulled out. I thought that Peavey was concerned about the Braves being contenders or not. Something in my gut tells me that this is a bad move. His elbow isn’t the best. Does Len Barker ring a bell? I’m sure the “Chief” will say I’m being pessimistic and post a song about it all.
By Lou Vales
November 18, 2008 11:20 PM | Link to this
Dear Dave, Want to really show me something. Answer these: (1)The value of Citibank on Opening Day (2) Will any major insurers have to be bailed out? (3) Does The Big 3 get rescued (4) Are the terms of Tarp altered again (5) What does the Dow, Nasdaq and S&P sit at Opening Day/ (6) Has Cuban been indicted??—Mark, if a federal investigator asks you a question he already knows the answer. Just don’t lie. (7) What does unemployment number reach?? (8) The price for barrel of oil!! (9)Does Obama’s Cabinet reflect true bi-partisanship (10) Okay back to reality, where does Arthur Rhodes end up?
By JimD
November 18, 2008 11:23 PM | Link to this
Why are we accusing Wren of “giving up the farm” when …
(a) we aren’t sure of what the original offer was - we only have “reports”, and honestly, the reports of the first trade of they are even close to accurate come along way from “giving up the farm,”
(b) we don’t know if there even WILL BE another offer, Towers may not come back around and resume talks with ATL, and if he does, Wren may not be willing to listen - those scenarios, however, seem far fetched, and
(c) if there is another offer, we will not be certain who is involved until the deal is consummated and made public. So many people are getting all riled up over stuff we aren’t privy too, just what we heard from some “source.”
Let’s wait and see how this plays out, THEN we can opine from a more informed perspective.
By fastasballs
November 18, 2008 11:28 PM | Link to this
The way I see it is the Braves are now in the drivers seat regarding Peavy. Towers & the Padres must move him, but there is only a handful of teams that Peavy will accept a trade to. Only the Braves are good suiters unless Peavy added more teams to the mix that he would allow a trade.
Towers tried to push for more after Wren made a fair offer, but Wren balked & stepped away, as he should have. Dempster signing with the Cubs basically eliminated the only other logical destination for Peavy. The only way the Cubs could pull a trade for him now is to get a thrid team involved & at this point it’s not likely.
Wren may even get Peavy for less than the offer that Towers declined. Towers is backed into a corner & has to deal him. The Pads MUST slash payroll. It isn’t a question of if they will, but when they will.
At this point Wren could offer Escobar, Morton & another prospect not named Gorkys & probably be far & away the best offer the Padres are able to get. Think about it, as bad as the Braves need Peavy the Padres need to unload him even more. It’s going to happen folks, be patient.
By N8
November 18, 2008 11:30 PM | Link to this
You guys need to get something through your thick skulls.
There is ZERO chance of Burnett or Lowe (not even Sonny Burnett or Rob Lowe), signing with the Braves.
Why would they? DOB can talk about cost of living all day long. The Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, Angels and Red Sox will offer more money, and they are ALL closer to winning than the Braves.
With no Jake Peavy on board, NO, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA big name free agent is coming to Atlanta, other than to drive up the price at their true destination of choice.
Let’s look at the pros and cons, shall we?
Hmmm. Go to NY (where the offer is likely to be much bigger), with die hard fans that show up ALL THE TIME and show up for game one of the LDS series, the roster is a virtual All-Star roster, there is a new stadium opening, and ownership has proven that while there moves aren’t always the ones that work out, they will do WHATEVER it takes (including throwing tons of money their way), to try and field a winner.
What does atlanta have to offer? One more year of Bobby Cox. 120 (or so) games of playing with Chipper Jones, and the games best catcher to throw to (provided Bobby doesn’t use the back up catcher with any potential free agents).
Where would you go? I’d go play with the Yankees for half the money the Braves are/were offering…. and I hate the Yankees.
If this team is improving, it’s going to be through trades and (or) the youngsters stepping up. (see Tampa Bay Rays of 2008).
By brent a.
November 18, 2008 11:32 PM | Link to this
JimD,
Good post. I always laugh when people get overly critical of individuals in response to rumors.
By Steve from OH
November 18, 2008 11:32 PM | Link to this
Lou Vales, DOB is not an economist. He is a baseball writer. I’m sure he’d appreciate it if you asked him questions relevant to this forum. If you want to talk economics, find a different daggone blog. If you wanna talk baseball or music or BBQ or whatever, that’s cool. But take the econ crap off of this forum, please. I come here to get away from all that bullcrap, so keep it off this forum, por favor.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 18, 2008 11:39 PM | Link to this
At this point Wren could offer Escobar, Morton & another prospect not named Gorkys fastaballs
Gorkys is a fantastic prospect and I have to agree to keep him but in the end of day I would separate. Towers did say he has ID the main part of package. That in my guess would be Yunel and Gorkys. It’s all the small stuff. We cannot call LOCKE a throw in. Ranked around 9TH in overall prospect. Towers needs to give in now if he wants Yunel.
By Flustered Fan
November 18, 2008 11:42 PM | Link to this
I just wished we wouldn’t have to give up Escobar…why can’t they offer Johnson…Hell, Prado can play 2nd. If Escobar goes, then Wren will have to go outside of the organization, and more than likey, get some older, fading player. I thought we were trying to go in a younger direction here. C’mon guys, the dude’s elbow is a ticking time bomb. What are we going to do if his elbow goes out, and we’re stuck?
By David O'Brien
November 18, 2008 11:44 PM | Link to this
Frank, you know Adam LaRoche lives right down the road from you practically (well, if you live 20 miles from Lawrence to the south and/or west. He lives in Fort Scott, on a farm….
By the way, my preseason pick for college hoops player of the year, Blake Griffin, has 25 points and 21 rebounds with less than a minute left in No. 14 OU’s game against No. 21 Davidson, but Stephen Curry, who will also contend for player of the year, has 44 freakin’ points for Davidson and they’re only down 81-78…. And Boog is calling the game on ESPN2.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 18, 2008 11:45 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH, How would you rate O. Perez over Hampton. I’d rate both at fourth, and figure we’d only get one. You said you be okay with a Perez addition… We cann even talk about BBQ, LOL
By David O'Brien
November 18, 2008 11:52 PM | Link to this
N8: Thanks for setting us straight, brother. We’re all set now….
Steve from OH: Not only am I not an economist, but I don’t really understand what Vales thinks I or any of us is going to say here. He acts as though we have some impact on the sport of baseball and how much will or won’t be spent, or how attendance will be affected.
Lou Vales, we all know it’s an absolute disaster, this economy. Most would agree it’s this nation’s worst economic situation since the Great Depression, though quite a gulf between the two situations on many fronts, such as unemployment rates.
But as horrible as it is, they’re not canceling the season this year, and we’re still going to cover it, and that’s what we’re trying to do here. And all I’ve said is that the very upper-most tier of free agents isn’t being affected by the real-word situations that are affecting virtually everyone else in society. That’s it. All I’ve said. Oh, and we also linked to some stories, which were rather inconclusive, regarding whether attendance is affected one way or another by recessions, etc.
I don’t know if it will be, but I’m sure it will be in some markets, perhaps including Atlanta. Either way, they’re going to play the games and we’re going to cover the Braves, so really, there’s not much more I can help you with regarding the economy and how baseball will be affected. All we can do is wait and see, right? Surely people won’t be as inclined to spend so freely at the concession and souvenir stands, and if the Braves stink you can bet more will stay away in droves. Other than that, don’t know what to tell you, since we really don’t have anything to compare this to.
By Flustered Fan
November 18, 2008 11:54 PM | Link to this
Hey, Braves fan in PA, I think the reason Bobby Cox was disenchanted with Yunel was because he wanted to win and he told Cox to stop making stupid managerial decisions. He also told Cox to get rid of Terry Pendleton because he was messing up his and everyone else’s swing.
By Flustered Fan
November 18, 2008 11:56 PM | Link to this
If the Braves want to continue going with the geriatric movement, they are going to have more dinosaurs on their team than there are in Jurassic Park!
By Flustered Fan
November 19, 2008 12:00 AM | Link to this
Peavey is not the answer to all of the Braves’ problems.
By Andrew
November 19, 2008 12:02 AM | Link to this
any other trade possibilities for starting pitchers? AL teams?
By Flustered Fan
November 19, 2008 12:04 AM | Link to this
Giving up a valuable shortstop for a pitcher with a questionable elbow is not good business.
By Lou Vales
November 19, 2008 12:06 AM | Link to this
Dear Steve From Ohio, Economics IS baseball. It dictates salary structure, stadium construction, ticket prices, advertising revenue, number of games broadcast, market accesibility, farm system viability, scouting AND ATTENDANCE and INTEREST in the game. IF you don’t think economics—-which is really LIFE as it dictates the physical quality of your existence—-molds the landscape of ALL sports THEN you are in for a HUGE awakening. Check out the comments coming from leaders of 3 other major sports in America. They have seen the sagging attendance, the decreased numbers in merchandise and they are SCARED. Just because Selig hasn’t commented yet may be attributed to recognizable fact that he is a MORON. Agreed??? The reckoning and adjustment of the Fun and Games Time is coming and I’m telling you the boorish gambits of Mr Boras will soon be ridiculed in the national media on a scale never thought imagineable. If you cover sports in 2009, you better know something about economics. Check out Peter Gammons in ESPN. Try the New York Times, Boston Globe, Washington Post, Wall St. Journal, Chicago Tribune, Dallas Times-Herald—See if those newspapers understand the connection between a possible global economic meltdown and the populace’s interest in a right handed pitcher from rural Alabama. He can bring it, but if you got too many worrying about viability of their annuities, pensions, insurance policies AND jobs are they really going to care?? On this Blog?? Probably. Is it wrong for someone to try to inject a LITTLE reality? Probably not.
By Couch Tater
November 19, 2008 12:07 AM | Link to this
For the Will Muschamp fans, he’s been named as the heir to the cattle farm in Austin, Texas.
By Wayne
November 19, 2008 12:15 AM | Link to this
Tater I couldn’t be happier!
:-)
If we don’t get this Jake Peavy thing done soon, I propose we refer to him as “Jack” Peavy!
Speaking of Jack, on Sunday night, “Jack” is back!!
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 12:15 AM | Link to this
Jed: You mentioned my three favorite BBQ places in K.C. — Gates, Arthur Bryant’s (the original one downtown) and Jack Stack. Also great are Hayward’s, and Smokehouse, and one that my buddy took me to last year, Oklahoma Joe’s. K.C. has so many outstanding BBQ joints, but I’ll take Gates and Bryant’s over the rest, and if pushed for one I’d go Gates, probably.
Grew up eating the Eastern N.C. pork with the vinegar-based sauce at Parker’s and other places (including my dad’s backyard pig pickin’s for most of Warren Street in Greenville), and you just can’t beat that eating, in my opinion. But the K.C.-style, particularly at places like Gates and Bryant’s, is just about as good, though totally different. However, there’s no disputing where the better side dishes are — in N.C., especially hushpuppies.
I tell you, there’s a few places in Atlanta that I’ve eaten that are right up there, too, though again, it’s a different style of ‘que. Pig is king here, as in N.C.
Vales, can we discuss BBQ without considering the economic ramifications, or no?
(By the way, there wasn’t much good BBQ when I lived down your way, Vales, in South Florida, but Tom Jenkins’ BBQ in Fort Lauderdale was/is tremendous. And the Georgia Pig down in Fort Liquordale was also really strong.)
By wondering
November 19, 2008 12:15 AM | Link to this
Is anyone questioning Jake Peavy’s elbow or health aside from some know-nothing bloggers?
By Flustered Fan
November 19, 2008 12:18 AM | Link to this
Here is the formula for the Braves to be good again: 1. Get new owners who care. 2. Get rid of Cox, Pendleton, and McDowell. 3. Hire Ned Yost as manager and bring back Leo as pitching coach. 4. Show Frank Wren the door. He tanked in Baltimore and was ran out of town.
By Flustered Fan
November 19, 2008 12:20 AM | Link to this
I wish Arthur Blank would initiate a hostile take over of the Braves.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 12:21 AM | Link to this
Flustered Fan: You weren’t kidding about being flustered….
By Mark
November 19, 2008 12:21 AM | Link to this
Dave, you may have already commented on this, but what did you think of the comments by Kevin Towers in the Chicago Tribune: “It’s going to take a while,” Padres GM Kevin Towers told the San Diego Union-Tribune. “They have a couple of players to pick from that we are interested in, but anything with them is going to potentially involve a third or a fourth team. We’re focusing only on [the Cubs].”
Do these comments mean anything at all or is just trying to get the Braves to sweeten their offer?
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 12:21 AM | Link to this
And you’re flustered in mostly one-sentence bursts….
By Flustered Fan
November 19, 2008 12:22 AM | Link to this
I wonder who the Braves new PA announcer will be?
By Flustered Fan
November 19, 2008 12:25 AM | Link to this
Wondering, if you knew anything, you would have heard that Peavey was on the shelf this past May with elbow troubles. But hey, what do I know? I’m just a know nothing blogger.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 12:27 AM | Link to this
But also flustered enough to occasionaly offer solutions, usually in easy-to-follow lists, as in 1. Fire him, 2. And him, 3. And, finally, him.
(but it’s all good. gotta love the passion.)
By Wayne
November 19, 2008 12:27 AM | Link to this
Steve Gotta tell you, though I am not a Jon Garland fan, I don’t think he is as bad as you suggest. Over the past 6 years, he has averages 205+ innings, with a 4.5 ERA. What would that ERA translate to in the NL?
A guy like that would have been a godsend for the Braves last year. I know the argument, “I would rather have Charlie Morton or someone like that in his place for about 10 million less per year.”
Charlie Morton might be better than Garland eventually, but he was not better in 2008, and who knows about 2009.
If the Braves are going to get 2 starters, Garland might be a useful piece to the rotation.
Personally, I would prefer Randy Johnson or Mike Hampton, but Garland is like the energizer innnings eating bunny.
I think a guy like that gives you a chance to win in at least half his starts. For a #4 or #5 pitcher, that’s saying a lot.
My personal preference for 2009 rotation: Peavy, Jurrjens, RJohnson, Hampton and Hanson.
By Lou Vales
November 19, 2008 12:28 AM | Link to this
Forgot. These teams DEPEND on corporate purchase of high end tickets—See all those fancy suites??—Now I’m going out on a limb and going to predict that if a company has slashed 10 percent of its workforce and might have even taken taxpayer money in a bailout that the people who are paying for that bailout JUST MIGHT not like the idea of high rollers sittin in comfort and drinking Caymus and dining on foie gras while their remaining work force worry about their futures. Just a guess. Therefore when that gets scaled back and the regular people just can’t afford a ticket and a 7 dollar beer—Do you think adjustments MIGHT have to be made. Now I never expect cc to be impacted to the point he doesn’t look like a sumo wrestling apprentice, BUT there are 24 other guys on a roster and maybe some former minor leaguers would look good making that 400,000 minimum at the 21- 25 slots on a roster. Think?? Also revenue begins to get scaled back on that silly MSG deal as execs begin to realize “Why advertise when flat sales won’t benefit?”
By GSU-Lee
November 19, 2008 12:32 AM | Link to this
DOB, a few weeks ago my dad and I got lost on our way home from Asheville, NC and stopped at a place called Butch’s BBQ. I had some of that vinegar-based BBQ sauce over some chopped pork with 5 hush puppies (they freakin ruled). It doesn’t get much better than that, and the slaw was good too.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 12:34 AM | Link to this
Mark, if you wait another day and read another story in another paper, Towers will likely say something else quite different. Someone should run together a list of about 20 quotes he’s had since this whole thing began, including the likes of “That train has left the station.” It’d be entertaining.
By GSU-Lee
November 19, 2008 12:37 AM | Link to this
Flustered Fan, I agree on Blank, but not on any of the other counts. I think he is a good owner and I know he is a good man who takes pride in his product.
By Lou Vales
November 19, 2008 12:38 AM | Link to this
Dave, Tom’s was GREAT!!!! Boca Raton was too eliteist. Left Florida after 41 years and moved to Greenville in 02—Can’t beat the cost of living after Boca. Greenville is where I heard all the Chipper stories—SOME I assume are true. I’m just glad Palm Beach County wasn’t an integral part of another election fiasco, although they did have troubles AGAIN!! We actually lived 2 miles from precinct that brought you the Hanging Chads, 1 mile from where anthrax was introduced on Clint Moore Road and my wife worked out at the Gold’s Gym in Delray Beach where Atta and his buddies hung out. A very interesting place. Main reason we moved though was the New Yorkers—How many times can you hear “That’s not the way we did it in New York”?? No Kidding!!! You left New York.
By Couch Tater
November 19, 2008 12:39 AM | Link to this
Wayne- Are you still feeling good about Dabo? I thought he may win the “mob” over, but in reading some of the Clemson message boards, I’m not so sure.
By Flustered Fan
November 19, 2008 12:41 AM | Link to this
Big Dave.. Believe it or not, I do love the Braves. I just hate seeing the team that I have loved my entire life go down the proverbial crapper. Yeah, I’m a little hard on them, but, I just want to see them get good again…and of course I am going to have some sarcastic interjections. You ever heard the saying, “if it’s too good to be true, then it usually is”. That’s how this Peavey thing sounds to me. I could be wrong. It wouldnt be the first time.I wish I could be more optimistic but it seems like the cards are stacked against them. I hope they prove me wrong, and if they do, I will formally announce it on whatever blog is available.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 12:41 AM | Link to this
Vales, thanks for reminding me of Tom’s. Forgot all about that place in Boca, right on Federal Highway, right? You’re right — very good place….
GSU-Lee, do you remember where it was, what town?
By the way, Dusty’s here in Atlanta serves the N.C.-style BBQ. The proprietors are from Goldsboro, N.C. It’s good, sometimes a little better than others. Worth going, though, for sure, if you have a craving for the N.C. ‘que.
They’ve got the empty bottles of a bunch of sauces lined up on a shelf behind the counter, including Scott’s and Carolina Treat, the two kinds my dad kept in the house at all times.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 19, 2008 12:45 AM | Link to this
Lou Vales you are on some serious drugs that have intensified the last hour.
My BBQ story comes from an hour ago. I dipped my wendys nuggets in some fine BBQ. ;
By Flustered Fan
November 19, 2008 12:45 AM | Link to this
Hmm..if I get all my frustrations out, I’ll have to change my name. I guess I’ll just have to find something else to b*** about.
By BravesAC
November 19, 2008 12:46 AM | Link to this
Towers has a few Cubs he’s interested in? Maybe he likes Pie (Felix) while the Braves say “let ‘em eat cake”. I agree DOB Towers is all over the map like a girl who can’t get over a bf who jilted her.
By uga-brave
November 19, 2008 12:48 AM | Link to this
i too think we will end up with peavy after the smoke clears. the pads really only have a few viable options.
either way i sure hope there are a couple of other moves.
would love to see what the reds wanted for aaron harang.
way too early to predict how the hot stove will pan out.
now if we get into early january and we start hearing the words not prudent, fisacally responsible, we really like our core, and we thought it was in the best interest of the franchise, then we might have a bone to pick with mr. wren.
as for now lets just see where the cards fall.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 12:50 AM | Link to this
Flustered, I hear ya (12:41). No problem. Just having some fun. I know you love the team, and I can’t blame you for being frustrated. Understandable after the past three seasons.
By Flustered Fan
November 19, 2008 12:50 AM | Link to this
GSU-Lee Amen, brotha
By Lou Vales
November 19, 2008 12:51 AM | Link to this
Couch Tater, No Dabo!!!! Trust Me!!! Never let the inmates(players under interim’s tutelage) run the asylum. Go out and get a REAL HEAD COACH. I’ve become a real big Clemson fan since they compete with the Old Coach In Name Only and The Coach In Waiting. it appears the Coach In waiting may have figured out the Coach In Name Only might hang around another 5 years in a willful attempt to destroy a program. As a Florida grad I’m extremely happy with an administration that allows a near octagenarian to oversee the decline of a once Top 3 Program. Bobby, You Stay Right There. You fight that nasty Joe Pa right to the end.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 19, 2008 12:51 AM | Link to this
Flustered fan writes: Peavy is on the answer to all of the Braves problems.
Um, that would be an understatement.
Basically, four of the five slots in the Braves rotation are wide open. At least two spots in the outfield are questionable. Atlanta has no backup for Brian McCann. The free agency of Will Ohman opens up at least one hole in the bullpen.
Overall, you could pretty much drive a damn mack truck through the Braves right now. That’s how many holes our roster has.
With or wthout Jake Peavy, Frank Wren knows he doesn’t have the type of team that can compete. Which is why the Braves are willing to trade Yunel Escobar. They are building for 2010 and beyond.
The Braves are rebuilding, don’t let anybody tell you otherwise.
By BravesAC
November 19, 2008 12:52 AM | Link to this
Braves rotation in 2 years… Jurrgens,Hanson,Rohrbaugh,Morton, and one soft tosser just for change of pace (JoJo, Redmond) with Medlen in reserve for when the bloggers say “dump the soft tosser”. That really could happen and it would be worth watching it develop with a solid core of hitters (Heyward,Freeman,etc.) on the doorstep as well. And Flustered Fan if you’re thinking of handing Pendleton a pink slip, if you can manage it with before those hitters come up, I’m with ya a 100%!
By BravesAC
November 19, 2008 12:56 AM | Link to this
DOB is that an early or late Man in Black song? Good lyrics. I have one of his “live at some prison (San Quentin?)” cds with his wife and it’s terrific.
By J.L.
November 19, 2008 12:57 AM | Link to this
I don’t believe the Braves will obtain JAKE the Snake.IMO.we should try to trade for two hitting outfielders.Work with the pitchers we have , now if a trade for Lirano or one of the rays young pitchers comes avaliable,i’d take a long look.
By Terry "mini fridge" McGuirk
November 19, 2008 12:58 AM | Link to this
Full speed ahead, ugabrave- full speed ahead.
By Couch Tater
November 19, 2008 1:02 AM | Link to this
Florida grad explains everything.
By Flustered Fan
November 19, 2008 1:06 AM | Link to this
Braves AC, I’m your Huckleberry.
By MiamiBrave
November 19, 2008 1:08 AM | Link to this
DOB
your interaction with Flustered Fan, reminded me of a question I always ask people, in your opinion what is harder to do…win the World Series or the division?
just wanted your take, as you obviously know we can gloat the division titles but only 1 title in that period…wanted to see your opinion on it…
great to have you back by the way
By Flustered Fan
November 19, 2008 1:08 AM | Link to this
Does anyone know where the Braves fanfest will be in 09? We’ve been two times. We went two years ago at Turner Field and it was awesome, then last year it was at the World Congress Center and it kind of sucked.
By Joe
November 19, 2008 1:14 AM | Link to this
The Braves and Padres should just do this The Braves should send Yunel Escobar, Charlie Morton And Jo-Jo Reyes to San Diego for Jake Peavy And Khalil Greene.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 19, 2008 1:14 AM | Link to this
Flustered Fan, Going to a Braves fanfest will only add to total frustrations.
By Flustered Fan
November 19, 2008 1:21 AM | Link to this
Good point, Owl.
By Erik
November 19, 2008 1:28 AM | Link to this
DOB
I hear you on the vinegar based sauce…nothing better. Don’t have any BBQ places in Atlanta that I love(Pig N’Chick is as close as any). However at school(Furman University) in Greenville SC we have some great places. My favorite is a place called Smoke and Stokes. They specialize in a Cheerwine based BBQ sauce(so good). Their Vinegar sauce is also the best sauce I have ever had. If you make it up here I strongly recommend it.
By William R. Smith
November 19, 2008 1:48 AM | Link to this
Your headline on the web page says, “Not hardly”.. Where did you lear such poor English? the phrase is simply, “Hardly”/ So try to do better OK?
By Shepard Smith
November 19, 2008 1:48 AM | Link to this
Lou Vales thinks he’s Neil Cavuto but he’s really just a tool reading the Wall Street Journal with his support socks jacked up too his knees and his underwear up his crack
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 19, 2008 1:57 AM | Link to this
Listen to the words of Kevin Towers concerning the Braves/Peavy trade negotiations:
“We were able to ID and agree upon a large part of the package.”
I’ll translate. The Padres want five players, Atlanta is willing to go four deep. Just give’em Tyler Flowers, McCann and Kotchman aren’t going anywhere anytime soon. And no, I would not mind having Khalil Greene at SS.
If I’m right and this thing is being held up over one minor league player, Frank Wren needs to be horse whipped. But still, if the Braves trade Escobar without a capable SS to replace him, both Cox and Wren should be tarred and feathered right outside Turner Field.
And while I TOTALLY agree that the trade Market for Yunel Escobar is wide open and the options for Peavy are limited, the Braves need Jake Peavy far more than the Padres need Yunel Escobar.
Also, those Cubbies are still after Jake Peavy. Don’t let the resigning of Ryan Dempster fool you, the Cubs are after the 2009 World Series title. I think it has something to do with a ONE HUNDRED year WS drought and counting.
And last but not least. Wren and Towers, swallow the ego. We all know neither the Braves nor the Padres are going to the playoffs in 2009. GET IT DONE ALREADY.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 2:03 AM | Link to this
Damn, just watched The Shield and it was absoulutely riveting, seriously one of the best hours of TV I can ever remember. 90-minute series finale next week….
MiamiBrave: That’s a tough question. Tougher to win the division, in terms of having to be a strong team over the course of 162 games, obviously. But to win the World Series, you both have to be a strong-enough team over 162 games to win the division or wild card, then strong enough short-series team to win three rounds of playoffs against teams that usually have some of the best pitchers in the majors. So I’d have to say it’s tougher to win a World Series…..
BravesAC: J.R. (Cash) did two prison albums, Folson and San Quentin. Both are, of course, superb….
I love this cut from the Man in Black
By Lou Dobbs
November 19, 2008 2:10 AM | Link to this
Shepard Smith is a homosexual, illegal alien lover.
By BA
November 19, 2008 2:12 AM | Link to this
Coach, my guess is that the fifth player for Wren is “take your pick, Towers- Locke, Rohrbough, etc”. But Towers still thinks he can bluff Wren into a desperation move (i.e., including HANSON or Schafer).
If this were Schuerholz, I’d be sure he was doing this (the “announcement” last weekend) to somehow KEEP Escobar, Hanson, and Schafer.
But if Escobar is the hold-up, I’d do it- and take my chances with Furcal and the Small Bridge. Anything for some pitching.
By Chipper'sJonze
November 19, 2008 2:28 AM | Link to this
My favorite Braves teams of the early 90’s were dominated by young, unproven talent. Maybe a pickup of a veteran talent like Maddux or McGriff now and then, but mostly home-grown youth with tenacity and energy. I hate the notion that this team is willing to part with so much youth to get a blockbuster deal done. I don’t think this team has recovered from the Tex pick-up to consider losing two major-league ready players, and a few more top-tier prospects. Not sure any one player is worth the risk.
Watching this year’s Tampa Bay team felt refreshing, with so many great prospects with just a few veterans playing with so much heart was alot of fun. I don’t think the Braves are too far from a situation like that, as long as they do not loot the farm.
By BravesAC
November 19, 2008 2:43 AM | Link to this
DOB I was familair with the track and have loved it, but never saw the video of it before. I couldn’t help but think of the faces in the video, and how today, comparitively speaking, they would be the clean cut All American guys compared to what you’d likely find in stuck in a prison today. But just like Cash’s time, the anger and the wasting away remain the same. My favorite cut on the cd is the duet he sings with his wife…it’s no Sonny and Cher pop pile!
By Tomahawkin
November 19, 2008 3:08 AM | Link to this
Its Early, but It seems no one has a word about the Burrell/Dunn/Abreu Rumors… I’m really suprised that ESPNY hasn’t reported on Abreu…
I’m just curious about R. Ibanez, I think he’s an under the radar Free agent this year, since he played on a horrible team (And BTW who is his agent, anyone know…?)
I don’t think much will happen until after Thanksgiving…? After then that gap between Thanksgiving and the Winter meetings will determine which team signs who ( The Domino effect begins…)
And BTW has anyone heard that the Phillies might trade their catching prospect J. Jaramillo, Carrasco, and Kyle Drabek to land Carlos Lee. I add if and only if Pat Burrell leaves…but I ythink its a longshot…
Gotta get back on Watching My old New York Undercover on Youtube That is my show for real. That show is still on point after 15 Years…
By Cherokee
November 19, 2008 3:19 AM | Link to this
Damn, just watched The Shield and it was absoulutely riveting, seriously one of the best hours of TV I can ever remember. 90-minute series finale next weekDOB
buncha dead people coming up, I hear
By nolie
November 19, 2008 3:25 AM | Link to this
But Towers still thinks he can bluff Wren into a desperation move (i.e., including HANSON or Schafer). BA
They prefer Gorkys over Schafer and he has already has been included. What I hear is they want Hanson or they want a 5th player, a quality pitching prospect like Locke or Rohrbrough. Can’t blame them. I wouldn’t trade a 27 year old CYA ace and take back pitchers as questionable as Morton or Reyes or Bennett.
By Tomahawkin
November 19, 2008 3:35 AM | Link to this
Oh yea…Yunel Escobar was rated 5th on the most underrated players list according to…
http://www.yardbarker.com/mlb/articles/MostunderratedMLBplayersof_2008/367576
Many don’t consider he was injured 1/5th of the season and played on a 90 loss team…
If he plays 144-155 games, he drives in 80-85 runs easily…
By CameronC.
November 19, 2008 3:42 AM | Link to this
DOB,
They say Tommy Hanson is done pitching in the AFL, because its only 2 games left, unless they make it to the championship game. Does that mean if Mesa makes it to the championship, Tommy Hanson will be the starter of that game?
By CameronC.
November 19, 2008 4:05 AM | Link to this
Personally I think Towers really messed himself up. I think the Braves are the only match for the Padres in trading Jake Peavy. Since Frank Wren said he was pulling out of the running to aquire Jake Peavy, I think if the Padres come running back, knowing they have to trade Peavy, I think the Braves have the floor now to do what they want. They will more than likely still have to give up Ecobar, and probably Hernandez, but other then those players I think they will be able to say who else is involved, I think they will get to choose between JoJo Reyes and Charlie Morton, because the Padres WILL be desperate to trade Peavy. So if the Padres DO come running back saying that the Braves the only choice, I think the Braves should stand ground and give them Escobar, Hernandez, thier choice of Reyes or Morton, and thats it. The Padres made the mistake of not accepting the deal the Braves offered and now the Cubs are pretty much out. And we all know Jake Peavy wants to stay in the NL, so that takes out the AL teams right? Also, I highly doubt the Padres will trade Peavy to the rival Dodgers and have to face him all those times. So if the Padres come running back, the Braves should end up coming out of this better than they would have if Towers would have been smart and take the deal they gave them. Anyone agree?
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 19, 2008 4:44 AM | Link to this
Personally, I’m comfortable with trading Escobar if Khalil Greene is included in the deal, I’m not totally happy with the idea, just satisfied that the Braves will have a good defensive SS.
I don’t want to trade Charlie Morton, his ceiling is near ace quality.
That said, this is what the Braves /Padres COULD agree on.
Yunel Escobar, Jo-Jo Reyes, Jorge Campillo, Gorkys Hernandez, Tyler Flowers and either Cole Rohrbough or Jeff Locke in exchange for Peavy and Greene.
We get our ace in Peavy and Greene to cover the SS position. The Padres get their SS in Escobar, two starting pitchers in Reyes and Campillo and three of the Braves top ten prospects in Hernandez, Locke or Rohrbough and Flowers. That’s two for six.
If Kevin Towers were to turn this trade down, he needs to be lobotomized.
By JimD
November 19, 2008 5:48 AM | Link to this
Coach
If Kevin Towers were to turn this trade down, he needs to be lobotomized.
Who’s to say he doesn’t already need to be? Can you recommend a good one for him? Who did yours?
By Nocturnal Owl
November 19, 2008 6:05 AM | Link to this
Lets not overpay for Khalil Greene. Dude has declined and we just can’t take that risk.
Another day filled with Peavy talks, could this be the day?
By Ted
November 19, 2008 6:20 AM | Link to this
1) No, I haven’t been reading the blog of late. But when I see career numbers and no mention of home/road split in the original post, I presume it is being ignored. My bad.
2) As for PETCO being around since 2004, evidently people have not followed baseball for more than a few years. Qualcomm was also a very well known pitcher’s park. So Peavy’s entire career has been pitching half his games in pitcher’s parks. And let’s not pretend Dodger Stadium is still a pitcher’s park - it has played neutral the last few years.
3) Peavy’s career ERA+ is 121. Burnett is 111 and Lowe is 122. Peavy is good. But not head and shoulders above everyone either.
4) Peavy’s VORP last year was 50.6. Lowe’s was 49.0. Burnett’s was 34.1. Escobar’s was 24.9. Last I checked, 50.6 - 24.9 was less than 34.1 or 49.0. But perhaps the schools I attended had funky math.
5) And I never said Burnett was an overall healthier option. But of Peavy, Lowe and Burnett, who was the only one on the DL last year (with an arm issue no less)?
6) If you actually read the entire post (perhaps the schools I attended had funky reading comprehension as well), my point was that while I think Peavy is a good pitcher, I don’t think, once you account for the fact that he’s pitched half his games in pitcher’s parks, he is THAT much better or THAT much cheaper or THAT much healthier to justify getting the deal done with more than what has allegedly been offered. Filling a hole by creating a hole is less appealing to me than simply filling a hole - even if the filler is not as good (but is still above average). And I also don’t think Peavy can come in and be expected to produce a 2.92 ERA here. So if it is 3.31, are we convinced that would be THAT much better than what Lowe or Burnett would produce here?
By Reality
November 19, 2008 6:20 AM | Link to this
Another day filled with Peavy talks, could this be the day?
No. Here is our future:
Wren tells Padres they have “till end of week”
By David O’Brien
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Monday, February 9, 2009
Braves General Manager Frank Wren has informed the Padres that he will be “moving on for real this time” if a Peavy trade is not completed by Saturday, when pitchers and catchers report.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 19, 2008 6:44 AM | Link to this
Ted, that’s an excellent analysis.
Peavy is a bit overrated. But only in the regular season. His real value lies in the post season. That is where he is capable of dominating. Unfortunately, our Braves won’t be seeing the post season anytime soon. Which is why the Braves should be eating all five years of Jake Peavy’s contract if this trade does go down.
JimD, I was lobotomized at birth, raised by little green men, given the secrets to the universe and told to tell no one except Fox Mulder. O yea, my computer does require nuclear batteries. Here is one earth shattering secret. If you concentrate real hard after eating eggs and drinking a six pack, then squeeze the old butt cheeks together and let one rip, you can actually fly for several seconds. Try it sometimes, it really works.
By Marc
November 19, 2008 7:12 AM | Link to this
I hope we don’t trade Yunel for Peavy. We don’t need him. Yes, it’s true, our starting rotation put up good numbers for most the season, up until the last couple months, but there’s multiple reasons for that. Our young guys are good; if we resign Hampton and another 2-tier FA pitcher then we’ll be OK.
What killed us last year was offensive. Tex started off slow and was traded just when he was heating up, Frenchy had a cruddy yeah, KJ and Yunel both had disappointing years, and we had trouble all season finding a productive for LF.
Call me stupid and crazy all you like, but the Braves’ primary need this year is a bat, not an arm.
By Roach
November 19, 2008 7:29 AM | Link to this
How can you say we dont need pitching. Three of our starters from last years ?’s. Smoltz, Glavine, Hudson. We know Smoltz and Hudson wont be in the rotation. (Hudson in August). A 2nd tier guy would help but no gaurantee we get hampton no gaurantee we get burnett/lowe. I do guarantee that if we trade for peavy. WE HAVE PEAVY!!!! A Cy Young guy who could carry this rotation for the next 5 years. Why not get him and build around McCann, Peavy, Frenchy, Schafer, Kotchman. All these guys are fairly young. Escobar is 26. Not like he is that much younger than Peavy. This is a chance to get a legit #1 and still has room to grow.
By favreiszeus
November 19, 2008 7:32 AM | Link to this
DOB - jumping in late on the BBQ convo here, but I was wondering in the off chance if you knew of any good joints up in the Winston-Salem, Greensboro, Lexington area.
I’m an Atlanta native, just recently made my way up here, and I am pretty disappointed so far with the ‘cue. Lexington is supposed to be the real deal, but I haven’t made it over there yet. Any thoughts?
By Paul Hamilton
November 19, 2008 7:44 AM | Link to this
There is one major flaw with your timeline or theory DOB. You said “can the Braves wait around for a month or more and hope that they land Lowe?”
Well I guess they are going to have to wait around. You say that the Yankees are basically a given to land Sabathia and Burnett; Dempster already signed with the Cubs. That leaves Lowe as the top pitcher left in free agency. With less teams bidding for Peavy, I certainly wouldn’t offer the Padres the same deal now that they are desperate. The Braves are going to have to play the waiting game or make a serious offer to Burnett. I honestly don’t see why the Padres would all of a sudden accept the last deal for Peavy. Towers has been fumbling about with their offseason priorities, so it’s kind of like admitting your a dumb a*.
By Aaron
November 19, 2008 8:04 AM | Link to this
I for one do not want a return to being a team that loses 2/3 of our games 2-0 because we have good pitching and no one to hit the ball…don’t trade Escobar for a pitcher that is only a few innings away from shoulder problems!
By Sam
November 19, 2008 8:04 AM | Link to this
Please Wren make the trade for Peavy happen. I don’t want to see Glavine and Hampton as our big free agent deals. Getting Peavy will help the Braves lure some quality free agent players to fill our glaring holes (LF, CF, starting pitching…) When have the Braves ever been afraid of trading farm help?
By sam
November 19, 2008 8:21 AM | Link to this
I don’t mind trading Escobar and signing Furcal. Where would the drop of be? I don’t want to lose 2/3 of the year 2-0 either. If the Braves don’t sign a #1 Starter the scores will be much worse than 2-0.
By augustagolfer
November 19, 2008 8:46 AM | Link to this
What happened to the Braves needing 2 starters? I think we need Peavy and Lowe to be competitive next year.
By Chris
November 19, 2008 8:52 AM | Link to this
“Not Hardly” in the link to this blog?
That is the fine grammar we have come to expect from the AJC.
By Roach
November 19, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this
Trade for Peavy. Sign Raffie Furcal. Sign Oliver Perez. Sign Glavine. Trade for Justin Upton/Conor Jackson.
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 19, 2008 9:05 AM | Link to this
Hey Chris…what part of the term “Braves Beat Blog” did you think implied this was some sort of formal writing forum?
By Fred Secunda
November 19, 2008 9:10 AM | Link to this
DOB, had a chopped beef sandwich from Bodacious BBQ in Henderson, TX yesterday. If you ever get a chance to head over to East Texas, do yourself a favor and try one of these, and bring home a bottle of sauce while you’re at it.
By Murphy
November 19, 2008 9:12 AM | Link to this
The Shield: The scene where Vic spills it to the Feds…seriously just amazing. The look on his face…I was holding my breath with the intensity of that moment.
By Jonathon
November 19, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this
Latest from Ken Rosenthal:
**The Yankees’ farm system is strong enough to match up with the Padres if the teams revive their discussions on right-hander Jake Peavy. The Padres, according to one major-league source, told the Yankees that a deal would be possible even if the Yankees declined to offer right-hander Phil Hughes.
The Padres scouted Hughes in a recent Arizona Fall League game, but the Yankees have zero intention of trading him …**
There is no way the Yanks could offer as much as has been reported to have been the Braves’ best offer. Cashman doesn’t strike me as crazy enough to overpay for Sabathia, Burnett and Lowe, plus give up major prospects for Peavy. That’s burning the candle at both ends. I think Towers is snorting the third base line at this point.
By Original Jon
November 19, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this
What the hell does Towers mean, the Yankees can have Peavy without giving up Hughes? But yet he wanted Hanson from us. What is he trying to do, slight Frank Wren for not doing a trade?
By the Donger
November 19, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this
DOB, Peavy is out of the picture now, let’s move on. The Padres want way too much for him. Yes, he’s “affordable” but their player demands are ridiculous.
What’s the latest on Hampton? Any word on what we’ve offered him, or if he wants to stay here? Is he willing to agree to an incentive-laden deal?
By Original Jon
November 19, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this
I fear that this will soon be a team that no free agent will want to sign with once Bobby Cox is gone. The Braves are in jeopardy of this because we have gone 3 straight years without placing higher than third and Bobby Cox is on the brink of retirement. The combination of losing and Bobby leaving will not make anyone want to sign with us unless we have the money to bandy about, which we dont unfortunately. Hate to be all doom and gloom, but this is what it feels like to me.
By GSU-Lee
November 19, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this
DOB, Butch’s BBQ and Breakfast in Morganton. There is one in Valdese too. You ever been to Williamson Bro’s BBQ around here? That stuff is pretty good too.
By TommyP
November 19, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this
IF the Cubs snag Peavy in a multiple team deal, what a rotation they’ll have in the Windy City.
Peavy, Zambrano, Dempster, Harden and Lilly?????
WOW.
Seems strange to have the Braves linked to Furcal when we have other major holes needing to be filled.
I get the feeling the Braves will sign/trade for one big name pitcher and then settle for a lesser piece as the 2nd pitcher. (Randy Wolf comes to mind)
By Original Jon
November 19, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this
the Donger The questions about Hampton have been answered at length already, just read the blog man and you will see.
By Lee in S GA
November 19, 2008 9:48 AM | Link to this
The Yankees could offer Joba Chamberlain or Ian Kennedy and a young pitching prospect, along with say Melky Cabrera or Brett Gardner and throw in Robinson Cano to sweeten the pot and it is probably a done deal. Even though Peavy say he doesn’t want to go to the A.L. most players seem to change their minds when the Yankees are involved.
By ChopChopHipHop
November 19, 2008 9:48 AM | Link to this
DOB, interesting to hear that somebody else on the planet knows about Parker’s BBQ in Greenville. It’s awesome. The best I have had is McCall’s BBQ in Goldsboro, NC. Nothing like eastern North Carolina style BBQ. There are lots of BBQ places around where I live now, but they are all too commercial. You know, sort of like most of our “Mexican” restaurants being “Texican”.
By GSU-Lee
November 19, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this
The Donger, DOB mentioned it up top. Hampton won’t make a decision or receive offers for a little bit. He wants to be closer to Arizona if possible. I think DOB said he wanted to stay here if possible. But if he gets a chance to be closer to home he may take it.
By Roach
November 19, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this
I would rather sign Oliver Perez somebody with an upside than resign hampton
By Roach
November 19, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this
Hampton would be cheap though
By crabapple
November 19, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this
Call me crazy but Oliver Perez, Randy Wolf and Juan Rivera would not break the bank and sell the farm. This trio would be reliable enough to keep the team around 500 (an improvement) until the youngsters are more experience say around 2010.
Face it this team will not contend next season anyway. Phillies are too good and the Mets and Marlins are currently better than the Braves.
It will be Cox’s final season as manager or at least no contract extension will be extended until the final standing results. Not so convinced Smoltz will resign with them providing he can pitch again either. This off season will help him decide that or not.
That’s right people - times are changing for the Braves.
By Josh H
November 19, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this
DOB:
Are there any lefties the Braves could be targetting in a trade?
We have Morton, Hanson, Campillo and Jurrjens who are all righties. Correct me if I’m wrong but most of the major free agents (Burnett, Lowe) are righties as well.
Our rotation is looking very right-handed if we don’t land a left-handed starter and Jo Jo doesn’t work out in the majors. I know we have Locke, but isn’t he still a few years away?
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this
Peavy’s VORP last year was 50.6. Lowe’s was 49.0. Burnett’s was 34.1. Escobar’s was 24.9. Last I checked, 50.6 - 24.9 was less than 34.1 or 49.0. But perhaps the schools I attended had funky math.
Oh for crying out loud…
So, to prove your point you are going to subtract Yunel’s VORP from Peavy’s to show that Peavy’s better VORP (which is head and shoulders above Burnett) is actually less than Burnett? As if the Braves don’t intend to trade one of KJ or Yunel if they obtain the oft injured Burnett? Must be fair with the math. I hope they taught you how to balance the equation. Subtract the same amount from both sides… and while you’re at it, add in the replacement… Peavy is still better.
Peavy is a 27 year old who struggled in Qualcom, the pitchers park that now suddenly is the equivalent of PETCO. Should we have stayed away from Maddux because his first two seasons were bad? The break down above shows what Peavy did in the last five years. It’s better than Burnett. Easily. Which is why his VORP is so much higher.
Now I need to go wash this VORP off.
By brooklynbrave
November 19, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this
DOB- you mentioned my hometown, Goldsboro, NC, last night…. so i know you’ve been to wilbur’s right? miss that here up north in nyc, but there are a few spots up here that do it right- get the pork ribs at Hill Country on 25th and chicken wings [seriously] at Dinosaur on 125th in harlem.
By Bill
November 19, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this
Red Sox’s trade Coco Crisp to K.C. It look’s like trades will pick up. Wondering if the Braves might have something going with the Royals.
By tennesseejed
November 19, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this
Looks like Towers is making noise about the Yankees being involved again, without having to move Hughes. Lord just let this be over, regardless where he lands.
By Brian
November 19, 2008 10:22 AM | Link to this
DOB
In your 12:15 AM post you mentioned some good BBQ joints in Atlanta, but didn’t name names. I could use a few tips on a good Q place in the ATL.
Pig -n- Chick is good in my opinion as well as Fat Matts rib shack, if it is still open. Since I am not in town that much I don’t get a chance to try many places.
By Patrick
November 19, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this
I know Rosenthal is a pretty well respected journalist. But I have a real real tough time imagining that the Yankees farm team could appease Towers. I was listening on XM just last week when their own beat writing said they haven’t had a good draft in the last 15 years and that their farm system is non-exsistent.
I’m sorry but I just don’t be Ken here
By welikebaseball2
November 19, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this
DOB: I haven’t heard any suggestions, other than signing Furcal, as to replacing Escobar. I think losing Escobar would hurt/impact the team much more than losing Johnson would. So, 1) Who do you see as a replacement for Escobar? 2) Is it that the Padres had no interest in Johnson (maybe his trade value is much lower…maybe neither side ever mentioned him as part of the package)?
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 19, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this
I like something like that crabapple…
Give Jon Garland $13-14 million a year for 3-4 years.
Go after one of Hampton/Perez/Wolf for 2-3 year deal worth $20-30 million
Then do what you can to get a Rivera (or Dunn if you are feeling bold)…
Then hope for the best from Smoltz/Glavine
:-)
By Patrick
November 19, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this
DOB, you’ll like to hear this!!! Since you and Ohman are buds.
One of the beat writers for the Cards posted this article today implying that Ohman is going nowhere!
Link: http://www.bnd.com/sports/story/547681.html
By Steve from OH
November 19, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this
Lou Vales, you’ll have to forgive my skepticism, but I hardly think the level of bipartisanship in Obama’s cabinet is relevant to baseball or interesting at this point in time. It’s true that economics are important to baseball, but for our purposes, as DOB and McGuirk has stated, payroll is holding steady and even going up a bit if management sees fit. That’s all the economics that are relevant to us at this point in time. If you feel that the 30 teams in MLB are spending their money unwisely, well, that’s tough crap, because it’s their money and they can do with it as they see fit. Write a letter to Bud Selig. Write your congressman. Tell it to your local bartender, I don’t care. But please, don’t bring all that crap here. If I want to know the ramifications of the bailout or the price of a barrel of oil, I’ll turn on CNN or Foxnews or whatever. I hope you’ll do the same, and maybe participate in some of the engaging baseball talk that has been going on lately, which you appear capable of doing when you put your mind to it.
Sorry if I sort of spoke for you last night DOB, but that stuff really grinds my gears. Hate the politics, racism, etc. that creep on here. Ugh, I’m gonna have to turn on some Whitesnake to calm myself down.
Nocturnal Owl, I’d rather have Perez, due to age and upside, not neglecting the fact that Hammy is likely to injure himself while eating his morning cereal. Hammy will be cheaper, so it’ll depend on how FW wants to allocate his resources at that point in time. As for the BBQ? I know it’s only 10:30 in the AM, but I could really go for some pulled pork right now….
By brooklynbrave
November 19, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this
KC has a lot of outfield options now….. makes one wonder
By MizzouBravesFan
November 19, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this
Rosenthal seriously needs to stop with the Yankees…he’s the only one pining for Peavy to go there.
He needs to understand…IT’S NOT HAPPENING.
By Nate
November 19, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this
What’s wrong with just admitting that 2009 will be a rebuilding year? Its gonna shape up that way whether we like it or not.
I agree that the Braves need an ace. And I agree that Peavy is the only ace the braves have a shot at landing this winter. But, trading Yunel forces the braves to spend another 10 million to add a shortstop. That it put the Braves at about 26 million added in payroll with holes still to be filled in the rotation, and the outfield.
Trading Yunel for Peavy will cost the Braves 26 million a year. No player is worth 26 million to the Braves.
By Lew
November 19, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this
Patrick-The Cardinals are still p!$$ed that the Braves didn’t trade Ohman to them last year at the trade deadline. It was pretty funny-I watch my games on The Extra Innings package on cable and you often end up with the other team’s feed. Such was the case with the Braves/Cardinals games in August.
All their announcers did during the Braves’ series after the deadline, was to gripe and complain about how much the Braves wanted for Ohman and how much we overvalued him. They actually got pretty vocal and quite bitter about the situation. It was kind of like “How dare the Braves want so much for him. He’s only a LHRP.” Of course, all their b!tching showed was just how much they really wanted the Dude. Hope we keep him in Atlanta.
I got the chance to talk to Will at Spring Training a few times last year. Just like DOB says-the Dude is a trip and I bet he’s great in the clubhouse. He’ll keep it loose, for sure. Considering the work load thrust on him last year, his performance is all the more impressive. He’s a keeper if we can afford him.
By tennessejed
November 19, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this
Looks like the Cubbies are still in it too. I’m hearing that the Yanks might be willing to part with Jackson, Kennedy and Betances. That would not be a bad package.
By DAP
November 19, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
i think the braves should consider signing freddie garcia, or especially mark mulder. both of these guys are in thier early thirties, and can be very good pitchers. they are coming off of injuries, so they may be had for less…
By DAP
November 19, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this
i wish david dejesus was on the block.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this
They say Tommy Hanson is done pitching in the AFL, because its only 2 games left, unless they make it to the championship game. Does that mean if Mesa makes it to the championship, Tommy Hanson will be the starter of that game?CameronC
Yes, it does. They’ve planned for weeks that he would start that Nov. 22 (Saturday) game if Mesa is in it.
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
Crisp for Ramon Ramirez, KC sure has a lot of outfielders now.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
DOB: I haven’t heard any suggestions, other than signing Furcal, as to replacing Escobar.welikebaseball2
Well, we’ve written other options Braves would consider here numerous times. Here they are again, names I know they’ve at least discussed at some point this offseason: Free agents Furcal, Renteria, Orlando Cabrera, Cesar Izturis, and possible trade targets Maicer Izturis, J.J. Hardy and Jack Wilson.
By Thrillhouse44
November 19, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this
Even if the Yanks can put together a good package, who says Peavy is willing to play there?
By Josh H
November 19, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this
I’m confused. What is so good about David DeJesus?
Does he have huge potential or something? Because his stats just don’t scream “power bat” to me.
By Lew
November 19, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this
Nate-There’s an inherent mistake in your rationale, to my way of thinking-though it’s hardly just you who’s thinking this way. IMO, The Braves will NOT sign a $10 million shortstop to replace Yunel if he is traded. I think they’ll make a deal that included a younger, cheaper SS. I would be highly shocked if we were to sign Furcal or someone of that ilk and salary range. Like you said-Too many holes to fill and too much money for that position. Makes no sense to spend that kind of $$$$ when pitching will be so expensive. Simple budget economics.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this
ChopChopHipHop: There’s two Parker’s — one in Greenville, N.C., where I grew up, and the other in Wilson, N.C., where my parents now live, and where we eat every time that I visit them. Places haven’t changed in decades. Simple as it gets, no pretense, just great food and dirt-cheap.
Brian: In Atlanta, I love Daddy Dz and Wyatt’s (both are on Memorial Drive) and Fox Brothers BBQ (I’ve only had it from Smith’s Olde Bar, not from the actual restaurant Fox Brothers opened on Dekalb Ave. a year or two ago). There’s plenty of others, including the legendar Harold’s BBQ (believe it or not, I still haven’t eaten there) Pig n Chik (very good) and the aforementioned Fat Matt’s and Dusty’s.
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this
Buster Olney wrote again about Peavy to the Braves for the 11th time this offseason:
Padres, Braves need to finalize Peavy trade
So the Braves’ best shot at a free agent might be with Oliver Perez — and with all due respect to the talented but erratic lefty, he is not the kind of consistent impact pitcher that Atlanta wants or needs. And as the free agents come off the board, and the Braves remain empty-handed, the leverage of San Diego GM Kevin Towers will rise — not significantly, but incrementally.
Yunel Escobar is in the proposed deal, and so will outfielder Gorkys Hernandez, and a pitcher, probably Jo-Jo Reyes, plus minor league pitchers. So Atlanta stands to make a deal for the 2007 Cy Young Award winner without surrendering: A) their top pitching prospect, Tommy Hanson; B) their top outfield prospect, Jason Heyward; C) The player who is thought by some scouts to be their second-best outfield prospect, Jordan Schaefer.
By Jonathon
November 19, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this
DOB,
Would the Royals acquiring Coco Crisp (rumor has it he’s been dealt for reliever Ramon Ramirez) allow the Braves to potentially enter discussions with KC for a guy like David DeJesus?
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this
Interesting take on how Towers has handled the Peavy negotiaitions:
http://www.athleticsnation.com/2008/11/18/664860/padres-gm-kevin-towers-pen
By stamper
November 19, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this
anyone go to the Kings of Leon/We are Scientists/Whigs show last night?
it was absolutely brilliant. all 3 bands brought the house down! Kings did a great job mixing their classics with the new stuff. Def in my top ten shows of the year.
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 19, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this
So it seems everybody in America knows that the Padres and the Braves both have to make this trade, each for their own reasons, except for Kevin Towers (and maybe Frank Wren)…
..Kinda like everyone in America knows college football has to have a playoff except for the head of the Rose Bowl.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this
Favreiszeus, there are scores of BBQ joints in that area, but you’re sort of on the dividing line between Eastern N.C. BBQ and the other half N.C. “Lexington-style” BBQ. Both are great, but their sauce is red in the other half — vinegar-based, but not clear. It has tomato paste or ketchup they put in it, and sometimes a shot of Worchestershire sauce. Why they do this, I don’t know, but they swear by it.
Also, I think they only use the pork shoulder, not the whole hog.
Anyway, it’s still great BBQ, even for an Eastern N.C. ‘que zealot. Go to the legendary Lexington Barbecue No. 1 (that’s the name of it. Google it or ask, everyone over there knows where it is).
Listening to some Reckless Kelly. Talk about underrated bands….
By Bubdylan
November 19, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this
If Mesa does make it to the AFL Championship Game, we can watch Tommy pitch for 15 dollars on MLB tv (don’t tell Lou Vales I spent that much). That’s the price of their offseason package, which includes a broadcast of that game.
Go Mesa.
By flange1
November 19, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this
Morning All,
Steve from OH,
I agree with on Lou Vales rants! I don’t see that they have a point on this blog and further, I am not sure of the point he is trying to make.
Yes the economy sucks right now. Yes folks are out of work. Yes the stock market is down. Yes the banks are hurting.
If the point of this is that athletes make too much money, I agree! So do actors and corporate executives.
But can we change that? NO.
I take all of that stuff as a given and move on.
Why complain that the sky is blue when there is nothing you can do to change it?
I agree that baseball and BBQ is far more interesting! If I want politics and ethics, I doubt seriously that Lou Vales will be the guy I want to discuss it with.
On to baseball,
I do think the Royals have something up their sleeve. They have too many OF and 1B right now, maybe they have something working..
I think the Peavy deal will still happen. I think Towers and FW have to suck it up and get the deal done.
We will probably have to give up Locke.
It hurts, but so be it.
By Ted
November 19, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this
As if the Braves don’t intend to trade one of KJ or Yunel if they obtain the oft injured Burnett? Must be fair with the math. I hope they taught you how to balance the equation. Subtract the same amount from both sides… and while you’re at it, add in the replacement… Peavy is still better.
Uh, genius, the Braves HAVE to trade Yunel to get Peavy. They do not HAVE to trade him (or KJ) to get a free agent pitcher. So in a deal for Peavy, the net effect of giving up your starting SS for a SP (who I’ve always said was better - sheesh, talk about lack of reading comprehension) increases the overall talent of the team less than simply signing one of the other FA pitchers. And as for the replacement SS, you need to define who that will be (of course you’d also need to define the “value” of the SP Peavy is replacing).
And so what if they trade one of Yunel, KJ to get another player - you’d then need to add the value of that player to the discussion. THAT is what is called balancing the equation.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this
Stamper, why’d you have to go and remind me about that triple bill? Damn, I meant to get tickets to that a month ago, then figured I’d wait to make sure nothing was going on with Peavy, etc., that might force me to miss the show.
Until I read your comment just now, I’d completely forgotten about the show. And I really like all three of those bands. Had to be a great show.
By John Adcox
November 19, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this
When talking about Barbeque in Georgia, you really need to at least mention Maddy’s on Scott Blvd, Finchers in Macon, and Old Smokehouse just off the 4th exit heading north on 985. The latter is the only three-time winner of the Stone Mountain ‘cue cookoff, which I think should mean something, at least. It’s mighty tasty.
By Johnny B
November 19, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
Hello DOB and all faithful followers!
DOB glad you enjoyed you’re long weekend off, it was certainly deserving.
Curious if you think B Jones or M Diaz will be in the Braves plans for next season? Also, what do you think about Juan Rivera as a possible LF pickup? Could come relatively cheap and has shown good power when given the chance to play.
By muxi87
November 19, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
There we go…a plug for Reckless Kelly!!! Great band…only outdone on the underrated band list by Cross Canadian Ragweed.
Now back to our program: GET THIS PEAVY DEAL DONE!!!
By JOE
November 19, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this
When are we going to talk to the Dodgers about bringing Andruw Jones back. he wants to finish his career here? (laugh) Thanks for info on Hampton..
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this
DOB
Not to beat a dead horse, but, you think this Peavy deal gets done before I’m eating turkey next Thursday?
By DAP
November 19, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
josh h dejesus isnt a “power bat”, but id say he has 20 homer potential, with good bat control and OBP. he doesnt strikeout much, i think he would make a great #2 or even leadoff hitter. he also plays all three outfield positions. hes a good player.
By Ritchie from Scotland
November 19, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this
DOB: long time reader, first time poster. I actually live in Glasgow, Scotland. Have you ever come across anyone else from across the pond on your blog!? I’m a long time Braves fan ever since watching them in the World Series on tv whilst on holiday in Florida when i was 10 years old. Anyways, here’s an opinion on the winter so far from a Scotsman. We need Peavy. I don’t mind giving up Escobar, he’s good and could be great but i’m not 100% on his attitude. If Furcal would like to come back even better, he’s worth it as long as his back’s ok. We do really need a leadoff man. In terms of the free agent starters i think the only realistic chance at the top starters is with Lowe. If the Yankees get Burnett then we’ll have to convince Lowe to come to Atlanta and not Boston, which will be hard. It’s more likely we’ll end up with someone like Garland or Perez, but if we do we definetely need Peavy. I’m really stuck on who we get as the big bat in the outfield, we want a right hander. There’s Pat Burrell but i don’t think the Braves are high on him, emil brown who pretty much stinks and Manny who just doesn’t fit the Braves attitude (and too expensive). I know there’s more but thats just a few examples, alot of the better free agent outfielders are left handed. Maybe we have to go the trade route to fill that hole to, but we really need to keep the farm intact as possible, especially if we trade for Peavy.
Anyway i just thought i’d through in my 2 pence, or 2 cents seen as your all American :)
PS. DOB do you only eat barbecue?? I’ll send you over some haggis, that’ll put some hairs on your chest.
Ritchie
By Bama
November 19, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this
If taking* K Greeneand adding another player to get Peavy (do the deal). Greene may have his best year because he wants out of SD. and he could be traded if Braves desire. Greene is better than a few SS we’ve had. Everything keeps coming back to *Peavy deal. Wren and Tower need to hammer this deal out ASP .Both side have to give a little. I’m sure Greene will cut his hair for Bobby. He!! what do I know I,m just a Fan.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this
Jonathan, is David DeJesus (or Coco Crisp, for that matter) really good enough to bring over and have standing in the way of Schafer? I think if you’re getting a CF to play ahead of Schafer, it’s gotta be better than either of those guys. And it’s also not a priority.
Braves need a POWER bat for the outfield, and DeJesus isn’t that.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this
John Adcox, I’ve been meaning to get to Maddy’s and you just convinced me. I’m going this week. Honestly. I hear it’s an awesome place, with blues bands playing some nights, etc, and really good chow. And the place is only 10-15 minutes from my house. Definitely going, and I’ll let you know what I think afterward. But I’ve heard nothing but good things about it.
Haven’t been to Old Smokehouse. Don’t get up that way. But I think there are a couple of good (motorcycle) rides that run near there, so I need to make a note of that one, too. If it won all those awards, hey, I need to try it.
Thanks for the input. (And the reminder to get my arse to Maddy’s soon.) Everyone who can afford to buy BBQ, do so to spark the economy!
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this
Ritchie, would you believe we have a semi-regular poster from Scotland? Well, we do. He hasn’t posted in a while, but he will after he sees this, I’m betting.
By Braveheart
November 19, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this
If you ever find yourself wondering why the Braves just don’t rid themselves of Frenchy, read all of these ridiculous get Juan Rivera posts. Juan Rivera is Jeff Francoeur, just 5 years older and a bit more Venezuelan. Do you really want two Francoeurs in the outfield next season?
By N8
November 19, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this
DOB
“N8: Thanks for setting us straight, brother. We’re all set now….”
While you know me, I always appreciate (and expect) some good sarcasm. I’ll assume that you disagree with me.
Why?
Do you really, honestly think that without Peavy in the fold, ANYBODY is really gonna sign with the Braves (in the Burnett, Lowe “category”), if all things and offers are within reason of another?
Maybe it won’t be the Yankees. But it will be one of the teams that DIDN’T finish 20 games out of 1st place. Just my opinion.
If I’m wrong, I’ll have ZERO problem admitting I was wrong and apologizing to all. When have I ever NOT done that?
I don’t think I’m wrong.
If Wren is gonna fix this team, it’s gonna be via trades. It’s not 1994 anymore, free agents aren’t dying to come to Atlanta.
Furcal might be the only guy that comes “home”. Do we really want him? Again, the only real need for him, is if Peavy is acquired for Yunel. But if Towers and Wren drag this out any longer, the free agents might all be gone by then.
Believe me. I’d RATHER have Lowe, Burnett and Yunel on the team, than Peavy, Furcal and Randy Wolf.
But honestly. Why on earth would Scott Boras try convincing Lowe to go to Atlanta? Give me one good reason, besides money. Because I don’t think Wren will outbid the others. Unless he’s desperate, and then it will be over-bidding in terms of years, which is damn near counter productive, IMO.
Maybe you have more faith in Wren, Bobby’s “drawing power” and whatever other reasons you think players (free agents) would choose Atlanta.
But here’s the thing. Three years running of missing the playoffs. That was WITH Smoltz and Hudson for 2 of those years. Unless a player has a helluva lot of confidence in his own ability to take the Braves to the top, (which Peavy couldn’t do in SD), they’re gonna need help. Want help.
Since Dick Vermiel left KC (I know football is different - but in actuality parity makes it more likely that an NFL team turns it around quickly), literally zero big name free agents have chosen to even VISIT Kansas City, much less sign there.
They have however signed guys like Napoleon Harris and Damian McIntosh. The NFL’s version of Randy Wolf and David Eckstein.
Players wanna go where they can win, be stars and make a name for themselves.
I’ve been saying it for weeks, and I get I’m just a fan, without inside info. But this is gonna take two years, not one.
Again. If Wren pulls this all off, and the Braves can keep up with the Mets and Phils in 2009, I’ll eat my words (all 2000 of them).
Go Braves in 2010.
By flange1
November 19, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this
In terms of good BBQ,
If you are in Columbus, GA there are many GREAT BBQ joints, Country’s has a couple of locations Macon Road BBQ is GREAT, and Smokey Pig has the best pulled pork I have ever eaten.
A few other places are good, but these 3 are my favorites.
Have to agree in the ATL with Dusty’s and Fat Matts. If you haven’t been to Harolds, you need to give it a try….
By DAP
November 19, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this
DOB is David DeJesus (or Coco Crisp, for that matter) really good enough to bring over and have standing in the way of Schafer?
it woudnt hurt to have a good player like dejesus, especially since we dont really know how good shafer will be.
By Ryan H
November 19, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this
DOB…I know you aren’t big on doing this, but just for fun….how about you throw out there what you think the starting position players and starting pitchers will be for the Braves come opening day. I will give it a try….
1st—Kotch 2nd—Prado SS—Escobar 3rd—Chipper C—Mc RF—Jeff CF—Schafer LF—Ludwick
Sp—?? Sp—JJ Sp—Randy Wolf Sp—Hanson Sp—Morton
I am kind of lost on the SP’s.
By Ritchie from Scotland
November 19, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this
really? thats good to hear, if only baseball was more popular over here, it really is frustrating for us baseball obsessed bunch in the UK….staying up to 4am watching live games…never getting to experience the ballark atmosphere..especially when you see NBA and NFL games coming to London. MLB in the UK would sell out in seconds. No kidding. There’s just not a good enough venue for it. Flights to the US aren’t cheap, especially on a students budget, but i am planning a 8 city trip in 2010. Using that student loan wisely….
By Lou Vales
November 19, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this
Okay!!! My last comment on this!! I don’t believe baseball players are overpaid if someone is willing to pay them. I do believe that 17 franchises, as I can figure, are located in areas that face severe economic downturn in next few years. I believe this most ASSUREDLY affects MLB because those teams by the very loss in attendance, advertising and broadcast revenue will have an impact on competitive balance. The big guys WILL BE paid, the other guys will begin to see the squeeze. As the teams who are somewhat immune from economic impact sign the bigger names and distance themselves from the also rans you are going to see situation where you have 15 haves and 15 have nots. When the have nots see themselves as no longer capable of being competitive they will scale pack more and you will see heavy dilution in those markets. Do you guys really not see the relevance of this to MLB??
By Braveheart
November 19, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this
I don’t get why so many believe Towers has the leverage now. He’s got no market. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch. He can’t go into next season with this guy on his roster and budget. He can’t afford it.
Wren, even if he doesn’t get the top tier FAs or Jake, will still have alternatives to pursue in fielding at least a modestly competitive and profitable team next season. Towers doesn’t have that luxury.
If this guy is still on the team next year, they will have to give him $2 million a month, which would be $1.5 million more than they would have to give Escobar a month.
So if they hold onto him for the first four months until the trading deadline, the owner is going call Towers and say, hey, buffoon, you just lost me $6 million friggin’ dollars. Do you know what I could have done with that $6 million dollars? I could have paid the attorneys fees in this freaking divorce action I’m going through.
By Bama
November 19, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this
Sorry about the bold crap. My bad.
By cody
November 19, 2008 12:05 PM | Link to this
Hey everybody accoriding to the espn website Buster Only is reporting that the Peavy to Atlanta deal is back up and running. According to the article both sides are being pressured to get it done. Go read.
By LT-A blogger
November 19, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this
I have a feeling the Yankees will wind up with Peavy. Mainly because the older I get the more often I find those adages we always hear are adages for a reason, e.g. the rich keep getting richer.
If they sign Sabathia long term, I think they’ll easily be willing to give up more pitching prospects than the Braves can or will. If they could land Peavy and Burnette and Sabathia, they’d immediately be back on level or ahead of the Sox or Rays. With the rumors continuing to swirl, Towers is looking smarter by the day to me.
Either way it hashes out, I’ll not be disappointed. If we land Peavy, great- we’ve got a solid 1 starter for 4-5 years. If not, we’ll most likely not be trading Escobar (unless a Cain or Greinke suddenly become untouchable). I am excited to see some new faces in the rotation next year- hoping that we’ll get to see if Jojo/Morton can take that next step and Hansen can make that leap.
The one thing I don’t want to see the Braves get in and that is a bidding war. Wren has made his offer and should stick to it. I don’t think the Braves will do anything but lose if they start bidding against the Yanks/Cubs.
By Jonathon
November 19, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this
Thanks, DOB. So, why would KC trade for a 2nd CF? Are they potentially the 3rd team Chicago needs in order to get a deal done for Peavy? KC is defintely thin when it comes to major-league ready corner outfielders with power. I think the list starts and stops with Teahen. Just curious to know if you think the waves from the Crisp trade could affect The Chronicles of Peavy.
By Evan
November 19, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this
DOB, I was excited to see that Buster Olney over at ESPN was reporting the Peavy talks had opened back up, unfortunately he was only quoting your speculation. Don’t get me wrong, I know you know your stuff, but I was hoping he had a direct quote from Towers or Wren.
Regardless, congrats on the link from ESPN. I know it’s not a new thing for you, but it’s fun to click on a link at a major sports site, only to be directed back to the blog I read every day.
By Steve from OH
November 19, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, I think you’re dead on about Peavy/Towers. He’s not going to be able to swing a deal to the Cubs, and there really aren’t any other suitors out there—except Atlanta. To steal one of Coach’s lines, Wren’s got Towers over the [darn] barrel.
Oh, wait, excuse me, I’m not doing the fashionable thing and bashing the Braves, their FO, and being hopelessly pessimistic beyond the scope of rational thought. Never mind. We’re screwed. We’ll never get Peavy. The horror!
By ncscoots
November 19, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this
Do you know what I could have done with that $6 million dollars? I could have paid the attorneys fees in this freaking divorce action I’m going through.
Well…some of them, anyway.
By jim
November 19, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this
Coco just traded to KC for a LH relief pitcher. Thank God we don’t have to talk about Coco anymore on this Blog. He would not have been the answer to any of our questions. Anderson is at least the equivalent and he’s better than Blanco.
By Lew
November 19, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this
Braveheart-I see the point you’re making re: the salary difference between Peavy and Yunel. However, it’s more of a disparity than that. At a half mil a month, Yunel would be making $3 mil a year. He made $402,000 last year, or about $70,000 a month-not a half mil.
By Nate
November 19, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this
Trading for a shortstop to replace Yunel would seem unlikely to me, because the trade to San Diego would had dropped our number of desirable and available prospects.
The Braves surely could trade for or sign a replacement level shortstop somehow, but to replace Escobar’s production the Braves would have to spend some money. Maybe some of the sabermetrics guys on her could tell us what the expected wins would be for the team with Peavy and a replacement level shortstop would be versus the team as now constituted.
I understand the need for an ace in the playoffs, but having an ace is little consolation if you finish fourth in the division.
By crabapple
November 19, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this
And as the free agents come off the board, and the Braves remain empty-handed, the leverage of San Diego GM Kevin Towers will rise — not significantly, but incrementally.
* Buster Olney *
Funny how people see things so different. Well you know what they say about opinions anyway.
By Lew
November 19, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this
Evan-Not too sure a quote would matter. Wren ain’t talking and Towers talks like And Idiot most of the time.
By richbrave
November 19, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this
It seems to me that TOWERS and PEAVY aren’t going to come around to the BRAVES way of thinking unless we show the baseball world how serious we are about signing a major pitching FA talent. DEMPSTER is off the table and the CUBS are out of the PEAVY sweeps as far as I am concerned. But nothing will happen on the west coast front if BURNETT goes to the YANKEES. In poker terms its time to raise or fold. And if we fold forget JAKE PEAVY. This negotiation for BURNETT is absolutely critical for our success over the next three years. Whatever it takes - 25 million a year - whatever. Call me crazy, but that’s how it shapes up to me.
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this
I still think Towers has more leverage than you guys think. If he wants, he can wait until Christmas to trade the guy. The Braves want it done sooner than that for obvious reasons. They need to get their offseason started. I hope this trade happens before Thanksgiving, but I have a feeling Towers holds out till the last minute. Maybe on the eve of the Winter meetings.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this
DOB…I know you aren’t big on doing this, but just for fun….how about you throw out there what you think the starting position players and starting pitchers will be for the Braves come opening day.Ryan H
You’re right. I’m not big on doing this. Not on Nov. 19.
Check back in a few weeks.
By brent a.
November 19, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this
Here’s a vote for Daddy’ D’z.
(Just don’t get gas in the neighborhood).
By Braveheart
November 19, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this
If this guy is still on the team next year, they will have to give him $2 million a month, which would be $1.5 million more than they would have to give Escobar a month.
Well, not that anyone cares, but I screwed that one up and it’s annoying me. They’ll have to give Jake about $1.9 mil a month next season. They’d have to give Escobar about $80 grand a month next season. Over 4 months, that would be $7.6 million to Jake, $320,000 to Escobar. Holding on to Jake and not getting Escobar will cost the owner $7.3 million dollars. The owner has got financial issues. $7.3 million lost is going to tick him off. Does anyone think Towers has the leverage?
I hope I did it right this time…… if not, oh well…..
By Halberstram
November 19, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this
DOB, with the Cubs now resigning Dempster what affect do you think that will have on the Braves offer to the Padres? It would seem that most of the ‘hand’ (Seinfeld reference) rests with Wren now. Do you think he would play hardball and try to lessen what the Braves are offering now?
Also, not sure if you know but Band of Horses and The Whigs are playing together at the Variety Playhouse on 12/30 & 12/31 for $25 ticket. Pretty good price if you ask me. Not sure if tickets are still available.
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 19, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this
DOB,
I wonder if SD has tried to get Wren to take back Brian Giles and his 1 year 9m contract. Do you think that is something he would consider if it got us Peavy?
By Lew
November 19, 2008 12:41 PM | Link to this
Wish one of those BBQ joints would send a franchise up here to Vermont. It’s 22 degrees today and some good BBQ would go down exceptionally well. Some Brunswick stew would be good too and also some of those Hush Puppies DOB was talking about. Any chance I could place a mail order?
By Lee In S GA
November 19, 2008 12:41 PM | Link to this
It seems to me that TOWERS and PEAVY aren’t going to come around to the BRAVES way of thinking unless we show the baseball world how serious we are about signing a major pitching FA talent. RichBrave
I think you hit the nail on the head. The longer this goes on there is no doubt in my mind Towers will get the upper hand.
By Braveheart
November 19, 2008 12:42 PM | Link to this
Braveheart-I see the point you’re making re: the salary difference between Peavy and Yunel. However, it’s more of a disparity than that. At a half mil a month, Yunel would be making $3 mil a year. He made $402,000 last year, or about $70,000 a month-not a half mil.
Thanks, Lew. I got in a rush for some reason and forgot to divide the $400 to $500 Yunel will make by 6.
By Lew
November 19, 2008 12:42 PM | Link to this
RichBrave-OK, you’re crazy. Maybe right, but crazy- (owed you that one Dude).
By Raddad
November 19, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this
Just think about opening day 2009. Jake Peavy vs Cole Hammels. Sorry guys I was day dreaming again.
By Lee In S GA
November 19, 2008 12:47 PM | Link to this
brent a.
that was pretty funny.
I lived off Memorial Drive in the mid 80’s for 3 years. I know a lot has changed since, but I understand where you are coming from.
By Steve from OH
November 19, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this
Athletics Nation doesn’t think very highly of Towers. It’s an interesting take on the whole deal.
By LT-A blogger
November 19, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this
Lou Vales- thanks for making that the last comment on the economy vis a vis baseball.
I’d just like to point out that most of the hard working folks on this blog come here to read and talk about baseball- not to think about the economy (if only for a few moments).
By BravesFanInRockies
November 19, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this
favreiszeus,
I grew up 60 miles west of Winston-Salem and though I prefer Eastern N.C. style cue, Lex-style is fine in its own right.
Perhaps my favorite place in your area is Stamey’s in Greensboro, across the street from the Coliseum. I’ve eaten there countless times over the past 40+ years. Great value — SWWEEET tea, BBQ slaw, chopped or sliced is fine, plus good peach cobbler.
Fine establishment.
In fact, every time I go back to visit I stop at least once. Now I’m hungry and have no way to satisfy the craving. Blast you!!
By cityofdecatur
November 19, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this
DOB …. Maddy’s BBQ is just average go for the beer and the blues they make the BBQ taste better.
By MattyRoss
November 19, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this
DOB or anybody else, do you know of any good BBQ places in the Los Angeles area? All this talk is making me want to go visit the family in Carolina…
By BravesFanInRockies
November 19, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this
Efrim (11:17)
Thanks for linking to that post. I agree entirely. And it cracked me up.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 19, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this
That A’s blogger also noted how Towers bungled the Brian Giles trade talks.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 19, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this
crabapple…
We used to have a crabapple tree in our front yard…the Mocking bird loved it. But the tree got run over by a car in February 2005.
By Marv Kleeman
November 19, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this
Memo to Frank Wren.
I would only make the Jake Peavy trade under the following circumstances:
1)The Atlanta Braves were on the cusp of winning the World Series in 2009 and were one top of the rotation starting pitcher away from achieving that goal.
2)The Braves had a major league ready replacement for Yunel Escobar waiting in the wings. (Any Elvis Andrus sightings - Oh! Elvis has left the building)
And no Zack Greinke and no Matt Cain for the very same reasons.
Let me present my case:
Exhibit A The San Diego Padres record with Jake Peavy (63-99)
Exhibit B The Kansas City Royals record with Zack Greinke (75-87)
Exhibit C The SanFrancisco Giants record with Matt Cain (72-90)
You see my friends(I’m channeling John McCain); a top of the rotation starter doesn’t mean a thing if the rest of the team is crumbling around you.
We still need a #2 starter.
We still need a clean up hitter; preferably one who can play left field.
The rest of our outfield is filled with question marks (we ranked 30th out of 30 major league teams in outfield production in 2008).
And now we need a replacement shortstop.
And for those who believe we can trade for Jake Peavy and then sign a second starter (A.J. Burnett/Derek Lowe), trade for a power hitting left fielder, and then sign a replacement shortstop (Rafael Furcal); I have only one thing to say.
I’m going to the corner store to purchase the winning lottery ticket. I’ll be back in 5 minutes.
By Shaun
November 19, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this
*This negotiation for BURNETT is absolutely critical for our success over the next three years. *
Really? So there isn’t any possibility that another ace type pitcher may become available within the next three years? There isn’t any possibility that Hanson and Jurrjens continue their development to become sort of co-aces, Morton becomes a solid number three or four and other young pitchers become solid major league pitchers that fill out the rotation? It all comes down to signing Burnett? Really?
By crabapple
November 19, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this
We used to have a crabapple tree in our front yard…the Mocking bird loved it. But the tree got run over by a car in February 2005.
McFann
That’s a shame….I suppose.
My parents had one many years ago. I could not tell you what happen to it through the years however.
By flange1
November 19, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this
Lou Vales,
On your last point, I ask again, SO WHAT? Are you trying to say that the “parity” that we are seeing now will evaporate and only 15 teams will be competitive?
Are you saying that 15 teams will fold entirely?
Again, we all agree that at some point (not yet) MLB will reduce spending on players because revenues may drop.
OK, great.
And your point is? Don’t sign any free agents and come in 4th again?
I’m sorry I just don’t see what you are driving at, and frankly I don’t see how that discussion can actually BE a DISCUSSION.
It is more like a political and economic commentary with no real point from you.
Again, I don’t think it belongs here.
By NickC
November 19, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this
Ritchie, I’m from London and eerily became Braves fan when I was 9 on a family holiday to Florida in 92!
By Chuck James is solid until the 6th!! (Formerly Steve-O)
November 19, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this
Couple things…
It’s clearly evident that Kevin Towers would be/is a terrible poker player. Peavy will be a Brave and I like all of you have that voice in my head saying he won’t too but Gammons and DOB know their ish, it will happen because the backup options are almost laughable. Perez, Wolf, Garland?? Mannn…..
Also, as always, DOB you are one funny SOB!
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 19, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this
Crabapple—
Yeah, it was a shame…and the girl that ran over it never paid us for the new tree!
The new one’s not a crabapple…it’s some kinda cherry tree thingy, but it doesn’t get any berries.
My parents had one many years ago.
That’s cool!
That was a cute little tree…
By DAP
November 19, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this
mcfann We used to have a crabapple tree in our front yard…the Mocking bird loved it. But the tree got run over by a car in February 2005.
lesson learned. dont play in the street, trees.
By Original Jon
November 19, 2008 1:37 PM | Link to this
Got this from MLBTradeRumors.com and I quote “Graziano has a source who continues to insist the Blue Jays will explore the market for ace Roy Halladay, who has two years and $30MM left on his deal. In that case, he believes the Dodgers are the most likely match. “
Why would he be an immediate match for the Dodgers, why wouldnt we be in on him if he were available???
By Rob
November 19, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this
DOB, Any truth to the rumors that the Blue Jays are shopping Halladay? He has 2 years 30 million left on his contract. Do you think that this may be one of those “other trade opportunities” Wren alluded to?
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this
I think Peavy will be a Brave at some point, but it’s not like the Braves will use their “leverage” to pull Escobar out of the deal. He is a goner. As well as Gorkys, Morton or Reyes and Boyer or a pitching prospect not named Hanson.
By Rob
November 19, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this
Original Jon, we must have posted about the same time, great minds think alike.
By Braveheart
November 19, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this
Lou Vales, if you were a lazy investor with a long term retirement vision and just threw your money into a Vanguard like index fund, over a 25 year period for decades now, you have likely received about an average 10% annualized return. The same is true with the MLB free agency market. The MLB FA market has also grown at an average 10% a year rate for over 25 years now. Since the players generally receive 55 to 60% of the revenue earned by the owners ever year, that tells you that the owners are also likely seeing a 10% average raise in revenues and profits a year over a 25 year period, Knowing that, don’t your rants seem like shortsighted irrational hysteria? Just like the stock market, there are ups and there are downs. Maybe we will soon be entering a prolonged 5 to 7 year downturn in MLB revenues, profits and salaries. But the powers that be in MLB are billionaires for a reason. They understand that given a long enough period of time, things will not only even out but they will go right back to enjoying a 10% annualized growth
By Dan
November 19, 2008 1:49 PM | Link to this
I hope the braves land Peavy.
However, while some believe that Towers has overplayed his hand, and will have to settle for less when he eventually trades Jake, I have a differing opinion.
As the free agent bidding wars begin, and some free agents sign, the options for the Braves begin to dwindle. If they fail to sign Lowe or Burnett, I think that the Braves will feel forced to give in to the Padres demands to acquire Peavy.
That being said, if the Braves can sign one of their priority free agents, then they are in the catbird seat to wait until the Padres become desparate.
By Braveheart
November 19, 2008 1:49 PM | Link to this
I think Peavy will be a Brave at some point, but it’s not like the Braves will use their “leverage” to pull Escobar out of the deal. He is a goner. As well as Gorkys, Morton or Reyes and Boyer or a pitching prospect not named Hanson.
You may be right. If you are, then Wren is a fool. When there was nothing but a market of one, the Mets didn’t have to hand over Jose Reyes. The Braves should not have to hand over Yunel Escobar. Towers blew his chance for Escobar. Wren should realize that.
By Corey
November 19, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this
Sign Burnett or Lowe. Then, Towers will come around. He has completely mismanaged these trade negotiations, and something is going to have to raise his eyebrows before he realizes it.
First of all, he has inaccurately evaluated the market for Peavy. Obviously, with Peavy’s no trade clause, all teams aren’t approved to acquire him. I’ve heard as little as five teams. That has to reduce the expected return. Not in Towers mind, though. Not yet, that is.
And, he has “publicly” pursued trade negotiations which has made Peavy more powerful than management. Its not hard to see why the Braves are against no trade clauses.
He has been disrespectful about the Braves offers and amazingly, announced which teams are in the running. Seriously?
This could have been handled discreetly and effectively, and it wasn’t. I doubt Towers is much of a poker player.
Now, he has opened up the bidding to teams not even on Peavy’s list, rather than quietly engaging the approved teams and avoiding media leaks.
I understand that he wants maximum value. But it looks like he has overplayed his hand. He has tried to bring in too many teams, gave out too much information, and disrespected his best trade partner in the Braves. And, he still hasn’t made a deal.
Once Towers knew the teams Peavy would like to play for, he should have privately approached them with the necessary parameters and a time frame. And, in return, he should have asked Peavy and his agent to keep quiet.
Then, Towers could have negotiated freely, quietly and productively between legitimate and serious suitors, rather than play games for weeks with reporters, Peavy, the Braves and a few AL teams Peavy didn’t want to play for anyway.
We should all appreciate John Schuerholtz and Frank Wren a little more after seeing Tower’s work. If this were Wren, the media would have barely heard a whisper of this before it happened. Information wouldn’t have been leaked, and that negotiations would have been smooth, quick, and respectful. That reflects the very high level of preparation in the Braves front office.
The braves have made, by far, the best offer for Peavy. I know it, Wren knows it, and it’s just a matter of time before Towers knows it.
I look forward to watching you pitch for the good guys in 2009 Jake.
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this
Ted: talk about lack of reading comprehension
And so what if they trade one of Yunel, KJ to get another player -you’d then need to add the value of that player to the discussion
As I said: Must be fair with the math. I hope they taught you how to balance the equation. Subtract the same amount from both sides… and while you’re at it, add in the replacement…
OK, so what if they trade one of Yunel/KJ… Then you’re pretty much back to a comparison of the pitchers themselves and in that comparison Peavy is head and shoulders above Burnett.
I understand that you’ve said Peavy is better. But you’ve attempted to temper his skills compared to Burnett and through means which don’t compute.
It could be the Braves trade Yunel to San Diego, sign Furcal and maybe still acquire Burnett. But Burnett alone wouldn’t make this team a winner, which is what Wren has stated he is aiming for, rather it results in wise moves or not.
By Marty
November 19, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
There is one thing that is missing from the reasoning of those who believe that Towers will somehow gain the upper hand in these negotiations: The Braves need to make this trade less than the Padres do. Of course, we’ve all heard why the Padres need to make the trade, and we all know that the Braves would love to get a pitcher of Peavy’s caliber. But do the Braves really need to make this trade? Of course not.
As many have surmised, it will be somewhat difficult for the Braves to be extremely competitive in 2009 regardless of whether they acquire Peavy. The only circumstances under which this trade makes sense for the Braves are those which allow them (1) to have Peavy under their control for several years to come (which is a given, in light of his contract status, (2) to have enough money left over to pick up a somewhat expensive hitter, if only for one or two seasons, and (3) to keep their top-notch prospects, several of whom appear very close to breaking into the majors. Making this trade only makes sense for the Braves if it improves their chances of winning in 2010 and beyond, not just if it marginally improves their chances of winning in 2009. This is NOT a Mark Teixeira situation, in which JS was trying to add one more piece in hopes that the team would be competitive right then. It was well understood at the time that Teixeira would likely bolt after 2008, and it was a calculated risk which apparently did not turn out too well for the Braves.
This, too, would be a calculated risk, but a good one, provided that Frank Wren does what he has said he will do and stays behind the line in the sand which he drew a couple of weeks ago. If it takes trading a temperamental SS with one good season under his belt to get 4-5 years of an ace starting pitcher who has already won a Cy Young, so be it.
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 19, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
Rob…great minds think alike? More like same bookmark coincidence.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 19, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
DAP lesson learned. dont play in the street, trees.
Haha! No, the tree was in our yard, and the car jumped the curb and ran over the tree. But hey, if it hadn’t been for the tree, the car would have gone into our neighbors’ house!
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
I have a feeling the Blue Jays would want significant prospects back for Roy Halladay. More than the Padres want for Peavy. So since Wren said we aren’t going ot trade those top prospects, I doubt we would be in the running.
By Original Jon
November 19, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this
You got that right Rob!!
By RC
November 19, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this
DOB,
Do you think the Braves might be interested in a platoon situation for a power-bat in left? Just thinking through possible free agents it seems like Edmonds could probably be had for fairly cheap, and his power #’s against right handed pitchers in Chicago last year were much better than anyone the Braves currently have (18 HR in 219 AB). Not sure who they would get for the righty side of that platoon, but even Diaz/Edmonds would be a great improvement over last year.
By Jonathon
November 19, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this
But the Mets were dealing with a guy (Santana) who had only 1 year left on his deal and wanted to new deal immediately. The Mets not only gave up prospects, but also had to pony up big dollars. The Braves might have to give up more in prospects b/c Peavy is locked up long term with a very friendly contract. The situations aren’t necessarily analogous.
By Evan
November 19, 2008 2:00 PM | Link to this
DOB,
Looking to the future of the Braves, say 2 or 3 years down the road, which I think is something we should really focus on, there are some great prospects in the field. 1B: Freeman C: Flowers OF: Heyward, Schafer, Gorkys
Since Chipper isn’t getting any younger, and won’t be a part of the distant future, do you see any possible options for 3B two, three, or four years from now?
By N8
November 19, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this
Braveheart
“Towers blew his chance for Escobar. Wren should realize that.”
Totally agree, but it won’t go down that way, and here’s why.
Wren made the bold statement that he planned to add two “top of the rotation” starters this off-season.
If this Peavy deal falls through, there is a good chance that he gets NONE.
With every free agent that signs elsewhere (I realize it hasn’t happened yet, but have ZERO confidence that Lowe or Burnett are coming to Atlanta), Towers has the upper hand, becaue Wren backed himself into a corner of publicly stating that the Braves plan to compete and and NEED two top of the rotation starters.
The better angle to play, is that we are perfectly fine with playing out 2009 and waiting for the young crop of guys to come up and gain experience, along with waiting for Hudson to come back in 2010.
But the entire world is aware that Wren is desperate to add two starters to the top of our rotation.
If Wren wanted to turn the screws on Towers, (if we allegedly are the ONLY bidder for Peavy left), he should IMMEDIATELY trade Yunel to anybody offering a starter that would improve the top half of our rotation (Halliday perhaps?), I realize he is not Peavy, but…
Or trade him for Ludwick or another outfielder with power.
THEN turn around and wait Towers out. If we’re gonna have to give up Escobar to get Peavy, and give up other players to replace Escobar, what difference does it matter who goes where on our end?
Ultimately, I’d realy like to see Towers get burned here. Not sure why, but I think he’s been weasely and a little dishonest in some of his public statements, so I’d like to see it bite him in the azz.
By ABravesFan
November 19, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this
Braveheart “You may be right. If you are, then Wren is a fool. When there was nothing but a market of one, the Mets didn’t have to hand over Jose Reyes. The Braves should not have to hand over Yunel Escobar. Towers blew his chance for Escobar. Wren should realize that.”
Huge difference in that Santana had 1 year left on his deal and Peavy has 4 with an option year. You just dont see cy young starting pitchers singed to modest deals get traded very often. Thats why Wren will have to give more in this deal than Minaya did to get Santana.
By Billy Walsh
November 19, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this
An idea for a power hitter…..why not trade for KC outfielder Jose Guillen. Yes, he is a nutcase..but he is extremely talented (he dismantled the Yanks in a few games this year) and has one year left on his contract (so you know he would behave and work hard in lieu of free agency). I assume it wouldnt take too much to get him. The royals would love to dump is 12 million dollar salary. 20hr 97 rbi.. the braves could do a lot worse.
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this
Braveheart
You may be right. If you are, then Wren is a fool. When there was nothing but a market of one, the Mets didn’t have to hand over Jose Reyes. The Braves should not have to hand over Yunel Escobar. Towers blew his chance for Escobar. Wren should realize that.
Yes, but this is a bit different in the sense that Peavy isn’t coming over and having to negotiate a deal that would make him the highest paid pitcher in the sport. Peavy’s deal is pretty team friendly….I guess. Although I can bet that he’ll want the Braves to pick that option up. 5 years and 81 million.
You might be right in saying Wren is a fool, but I would be absolutely shocked if the Braves got Peavy without giving up Yunel, Shafer, Heyward or Hanson. Since we know Hanson and Heyward aren’t going anywhere, and apparently the Padres are lukewarm on Schafer, then Escobar is going to be in that deal. If Towers didn’t want to make that trade because of the Braves refusal to include Jeff Locke or someone like that, what do you think they are going to say to the removal of Escobar?
By Corey
November 19, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this
The Blue Jays front office is playing this a lot smarter than our old friends in San Diego. They’ve offered Burnett a contract, that he clearly want accept, but it makes it look like they are not about to cut payroll. Which they are, if they’re thinking of trading Roy. But, they will get more in return for him since they haven’t announced to the world that they’re cutting payroll… like the Padres did.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 19, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this
Steve in La La land, scroll up buddy, scroll up.
Kevin Towers had the upper hand, as in past tense. And at the rate this proposed trade is going, Dave O’Brien is gonna need to pump out another 500 blogs titled, PEAVY, AS THE WORLD TURNS, day 75, day 100, day 125, day 150, day before spring training, NO PEAVY YET ! etc. etc. etc.
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this
N8
If Wren wanted to turn the screws on Towers, (if we allegedly are the ONLY bidder for Peavy left), he should IMMEDIATELY trade Yunel to anybody offering a starter that would improve the top half of our rotation (Halliday perhaps?), I realize he is not Peavy, but…
I’d take Roy Halladay over Jake Peavy any day of the week. No stats needed. Just please, for the love of all that is good, you have to see that there is a SIGNIFICANT difference in facing the Red Sox and Yankees than facing the Giants and whoever in the NL West. Not to mention, the AL is still the superior league. I’m sorry, but I had to say that. You may have other reasons why you like Peavy more, but I can guarentee you that most people in baseball take the difference of league into account when evaluating a pitcher.
By Shinnbone
November 19, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this
Dave, I’m a part-time musician, and have played at Fat Matt’s, Daddy D’z (used to play there almost every week years ago …), and Maddy’s, just to mention BBQ joints. And I can honestly say, Maddy’s’ BBQ is my favorite, by a large margin. The first time I had their rib sandwich, I took it home after playing a gig. Microwaved it (I know! Blasphemy! But had no time to eat at the place. They close early), and it was still awesome. I’d even say it was better than Daddy D’z, which I prefer to Fat Matt’s. I know everyone’s taste bud is different, but a lot of blues musician friends share my view also.
By Erik
November 19, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this
Marv I do agree with assesment for 2009 but you fail to the benefits of Peavy for 2010-2013.
Yes we have many holes this year and the chances of us filling them all is slim(but still a chance!). However lets say we fill our need for a starting pitcher and a replacement SS. I also think we can get a power hitting LF but if we cant then so be it. Lets then look at 2010…
If we exercise Hudson’s option our rotation would most likely be 1)Peavy 2)Hudson 3)JJ 4)Morton(depending on development) 5)Campillo
and that is assuming that JoJo or another young guy doesn’t develop and earn a spot in that rotation.
That is a dominant rotation.
Also in 2010 Schaffer, Freidman, Flowers, Heyward, will be closer to stepping in and impacting our team.
The key for this off season if we fail to land some of our targets is then making deals that we help us in 2010.
I still think we can get a very good team for 09 and I think Wren does to and until that changes we are goign to be involved with a lot of rumors.
Another thing I have been thinking about is how people keep saying Peavy isn’t worth Yunel and or the net $26 million dollar salary.
Of the teams in the playoffs this past year how many of them had a legit Ace? All of them(LA is questionable but Billingsly had 201 ks and a 3.14 ERA) How many of them had a great SS? 2
By Nate
November 19, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this
I would rather have Roy Halladay that Peavy any day, but the Jays would want a boat load of prospects just like the Padres. That kind of puts the Brave’s back at square one.
By brooklynbrave
November 19, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this
if blue jays are listening, any chance we ask about alex rios?
By Marty
November 19, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this
Burnett is also not the caliber of pitcher that Peavy is, folks.
By Braveheart
November 19, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this
But the Mets were dealing with a guy (Santana) who had only 1 year left on his deal and wanted to new deal immediately. The Mets not only gave up prospects, but also had to pony up big dollars. The Braves might have to give up more in prospects b/c Peavy is locked up long term with a very friendly contract. The situations aren’t necessarily analogous.
The deal was not done until Santana agreed to a new contract. If no contract had been agreed to, the trade would have been voided and Santana would have gone back to the Twins. So it wasn’t just a 1 year deal. Once the deal was finalized, the Mets actually were assured of more club control over Santana than the Braves would be with Jake. So that removes that only one year rationale.
There’s also the difference in relative salary scale. $80 mil over 5 years is clearly the limit of the Braves comfort in giving out a contract. $140 mil over 6 years is the limit of the Mets comfort in giving out a contract. That has to be heavily taken into consideration as well. From what each team has shown about their comfort level in giving out salaries to arms, an injury to an $80 mil arm for the Braves hurts just as much as an injury to a $140 mil arm for the Mets. Santana is 16% of the Mets budget. Jake would be 16% of the Braves budget.
Santana also lacked a no trade clause that llmited the market and thus discounted his trade market value. His trade market however was limited to the handful of teams that could afford him. Jake’s trade market is limited to the handful of teams he would like to go to. In reality, it’s limited to the Braves because there’s no other team on his list with the goods to get him.
Just like with Santana, there were several suitors early who later vanished, limiting the market to one team. Knowing that, Omar didn’t give ‘em Reyes. Wren has to be just as smart and not give ‘em Escobar.
Wren offered them a fair and just offer. They were fools and turned it down. Next time, the offer must be discounted
By 18 Wheels of Love
November 19, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this
Speaking of good BBQ…
McRib is back at McDonalds! Mmmmmmm mmmmmmmm!
I’m totally kidding…
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this
Nate
Just talking about the difference in pitcher. Halladay is superior to Peavy in my mind. I’d love to see Peavy’s stats if he had to face the Rays, Yankees and Red Sox 16 times like Halladay did.
By N8
November 19, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this
Efrim
I don’t neccesarily consider Peavy better than Halliday. Haven’t actually put too much thought in to it.
Was just assuming that half (or more) of the blog would tear me apart for even speaking Halliday’s name in the same conversation with Peavy. LOL!
Besides, even in the post of mine that you quoted, I didn’t say Peavy is better, I just said that Halliday is NOT Peavy, meaning that that is where the entire blog is focussed on right now.
I still think that Wren has some under the radar moves up his sleeve. Maybe not.
But I was ready to move on past the Peavy think a week ago.
Also, I thought that it was a forgone conclusion that Peavy would ALREADY be a Brave when free agency opened for bidding, and THAT is why I thought we’d have a shot at Lowe, Dempster or Burnett.
Without him, I truely believe we have no shot at the remaining two that are unsigned. I could be wrong, and will admit so if I have to. But I doubt I will.
By Jim
November 19, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this
While we are playing “will he, or won’t he” and “shouldhe or shouldn’t he” here, I’d like to take a minute to ask about any activity on two other fronts.
Is anything happening with the Japanese pitcher Tarazawa? Are they Braves still interested and are they still viable?
Do the Braves have any interest in the young Cuban 3rd baseman? Third base is a position that will have to be filled in three or four years time (if not sooner) and we don’t seem to have much depth in the system at that position.
As I see it the system has depth in outfield talent, has some intriguing power hitters such as Flowers, Freeman, and possibly Cody Johnson, and has decent depth in pitching headed by Hanson, Locke, Rohrbaugh, and Teheran. But there aren’t many top level prospects at middle infield and third base. The Cuban kid would change that situation immediately.
By SteveInRaleigh
November 19, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
Roy Holladay wins two Cy Young awards pitching against the NL 35 times a year…
By ncscoots
November 19, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this
If it takes trading a temperamental SS with one good season under his belt
Spin will just not be denied, will it? Justification of Escobar’s inclusion in any Peavy deal seems to be a large bee here, no doubt, and some are murderously intent on portraying the SS as hardly worth keeping, trade or no. If that helps you sleep at night, so be it.
If Escobar is the deal-maker for both Wren and Towers, then he goes. Pretending that it won’t hurt the team, at all, is whistling past the graveyard.
Furcal? Hardly, at $13MM. Jack Wilson? Yikes. One of the Izturis boys? Maybe, but a downgrade on both sides of the ball. Hardy? A reasonable offensive replacement, arb-eligible, decent glove, and probably a zero fit for the Braves’ roster and the Brewers’ needs (though he would be my choice, if it comes to that).
If you think that losing Escobar is worth gaining Peavy, I won’t argue with the concept. There are certainly pros to the thought. But no need to delude yourself that there aren’t cons to that exchange, too.
By mike p
November 19, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this
We need Peavy..I think it’s that simple. He is an ace we can get for the next 4 years, then we need to take action. So what if all our young guys come up and are ready in 2010? Yes, they will be welcomed, but they will not be aces just yet. Wren has made it a goal for this team to acquire 2 top of the rotation guys. He also sees it necessary to find a power hitting left fielder. As a Braves fan, I trust his abilities to do so. That’s what makes being a Braves fan different than any other team. I have absolute trust in the decisions made from the front office on down. Living in the philly area, phillies fans are such fair weather fans who ridicule consistently, even after a World Series title! Keep working Frank, get our guy! And if not, I still believe we will find ways to improve this team and make noise in 2009.
By Nate
November 19, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this
Don’t knock the McRib!!
By N8
November 19, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this
“Jake would be 16% of the Braves budget.”
Then we shouldn’t make the trade. Period.
ONLY the 2002 Angels have won the WS since 1985 while having a player (Vlad), take up as much as 16 percent of their percieved payroll.
Not stating my opinion. It’s a fact. Look it up.
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this
Eric (Atlanta): “Yunel Escobar, Gorkys Hernandez and a young arm or two” Is that too much for the Braves to give up?
Jim Callis: (2:33 PM ET ) I’ve said in the past that I don’t think Peavy alone makes the Braves realistic contenders, and he’s not cheap salary-wise either. I don’t mind trading Hernandez with Jordan Schafer on hand. I’d try to hold onto Escobar and give them Brent Lillibridge or Brandon Hicks. The Padres seem determined to trade Peavy, and everyone knows it.
By Marty
November 19, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this
Efrim
Yes, and all of those factors which you’ve mentioned are accurately depicted by the differences in the two players’ ERAs. Halladay has a career 3.52 ERA, compared to a league average ERA of 4.61. In four of his last five seasons, Peavy’s ERAs have been 2.28, 2.88, 2.54, and 2.85. In those seasons, the league average ERAs were 3.88, 3.85, 4.04, and 3.82. By comparison to the rest of the league, Peavy has simply been a better pitcher, although Halladay has also been excellent.
The other primary considerations in a Peavy vs. Halladay comparison: Halladay will turn 32 next season and has 2 years/$30MM remaining on his contract. Peavy, as we all know, is 27 and is signed through at least 2012.
I’m not questioning that Halladay is a great pitcher, but in terms of who is more valuable in trade right now, it’s clearly Peavy.
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this
N8
Sorry I jumped all over your post, I just think far too often people don’t take into account the fact that a guy pitches against lesser competition. I mean, really. Halladay threw 16 of his 33 starts against the Rays, Red Sox and Yankees. Now, the Rays aren’t THAT great of an offense, but 10 starts against the Red Sox and Yanks. That is tough.
By Shawn B
November 19, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this
I put in a vote for Clinton’s BBQ between Macon and Gray in Middle Georgia. Some of you may have seen in on Dirty Jobs. They have some great pork BBQ.
By mbatl
November 19, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this
But there aren’t many top level prospects at middle infield and third base
Actually, 3B Eric Campbell is one of our better prospects (his numbers at Myrtle Bch were very similar to Tyler Flowers in ‘08); he’s got all the tools to be a solid ML player. Just that he’s managed to get himself suspended a couple of times for “attitude problems”, or something. He’s still just 22, and if he can develop a little something between the ears, could very well be our 3B of the future.
As to Halladay vs. Peavy, I think Halladay is clearly the better pitcher. But given the 2-year contract, I just don’t see the Braves unloading key players/prospects (Escobar, Hanson, etc) that it would take to get him - if he is even on the market.
By Braveheart
November 19, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
Yes, but this is a bit different in the sense that Peavy isn’t coming over and having to negotiate a deal that would make him the highest paid pitcher in the sport. Peavy’s deal is pretty team friendly….I guess.
I don’t think his salary would be any more team friendly in the Atlanta market than Santana’s is in the NYC market. Each contract is worth 16% of the team’s budget in their respective markets. The cost/benefit of each guy in their respective market is the same.
Think about this way: if he had a 6 year contract, Jake would make somewhere between 96 million and 103 million (if you just look at the $81 mil over 5 and the 22 in the last year, you’d have to assume another 22 or more in the sixth year if he had a 6 year contract). So say 103 million. Isn’t that about what the Braves budget is believed to be next season?
Well, Santana agreed to a $138 million contract last season. The Mets overall salary budget last season was $138 million.
So I think in terms of relative salary scale for the markets they were going to, the cost/benefit of Santana’s contract is exactly the same as Jake’s in Atlanta.
I think that needs to be heavily weighed in determining trade value here and what goes over to San Diego. If there was more of a trade market, it would be different. But there is a very limited trade market. And in the limited market now available, 5 years, $80 mil is just as costly and beneficial as $138 mil over 6 years in NYC.
By richbrave
November 19, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this
LEW:
And since I thought you owed me one also, I went to the internet and old telephone and called two of my three favorite BBQ places in the universe to try and have some savory delectibles delivered to your VERMONT abode.
Alas and alack, like the BRAVES’ west coast adventure, I came up dry. They were in order 1- BUNN’s in WINDSOR, N.C.; 2- RALPH’S in WELDON, N.C.; 3- PARKER’s in WILSON (Brother Dave’s fav. as well). I’m not sure why all three are located in towns beginning with “W”. Maybe something in the water.
Bunn’s was nice enough to post “no deliveries” on their web-site, but I had to call the others to find out the sad news. Maybe this will make me hungry enough to drive the three hour round-trip to pick up some BBQ at RALPH’s and forward, but I’ve done that before and it doesn’t do the place justice. As DAVE said, the ambiance and sides make the total experience exceptional.
Anyway, HAPPY TURKEY DAY. Shoot a bird for me, since I recall your back window observations from last winter. Or if not a hunter, enjoy the view.
By Kieran, Long Island Braves Fan
November 19, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
This is from Jim Callis ESPN Chat:
Eric (Atlanta): “Yunel Escobar, Gorkys Hernandez and a young arm or two” Is that too much for the Braves to give up?
Jim Callis: (2:33 PM ET ) I’ve said in the past that I don’t think Peavy alone makes the Braves realistic contenders, and he’s not cheap salary-wise either. I don’t mind trading Hernandez with Jordan Schafer on hand. I’d try to hold onto Escobar and give them Brent Lillibridge or Brandon Hicks. The Padres seem determined to trade Peavy, and everyone knows it.
DOB-
Does this reflect anything you’ve heard from braves camp?? Can the Braves get this deal done without giving up Escobar?
By cricket
November 19, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
Ritchie from Scotland
May be you should get into cricket, baseball’s distant cousin :) I’ll get my fix watching India kick England’s azz again (this is getting old already) through the night today.
By Marty
November 19, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this
nscoots Sorry, but it’s just not that clear that Yunel Escobar will be a superstar, and he certainly isn’t one yet. He slugged a rather poor .401 in 2008, and during his short major-league career, he has posted a rather pedestrian .793 OPS. Sure, his batting average has been nice, but he’s also notreally young enough (26) to reasonably expect him to get a whole lot better. Sure, hitters often peak around 28-29, but it’s difficult to imagine that his power will improve greatly, especially considering that his minor league numbers (.413 SLG, .781 OPS) are right in line with his major-league numbers thus far.
No, it’s most likely that Yunel is a solid defender with a good arm and a good, but not great, hitter. Do we have a replacement right now who is just as good? Not that I know of. Is it likely that we can find one in the next couple of years? Certainly.
By Nate
November 19, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this
Frank Wren is chatting on MLB.com today isn’t he?
By DHD
November 19, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this
I have this friend who says that his uncle’s girlfriend is friends with a guy who knows Peavy’s third cousin once removed. She hasn’t heard any news about Peavy coming to Atlanta. So, this is all bull.
By Braveheart
November 19, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
Jake would be 16% of the Braves budget. Then we shouldn’t make the trade. Period. ONLY the 2002 Angels have won the WS since 1985 while having a player (Vlad), take up as much as 16 percent of their percieved payroll. Not stating my opinion. It’s a fact. Look it up.
N8 His average salary would be $16 million, which would be about 16% of this year’s budget. HOWEVER, the contract is structured such that his contract should only be worth the following over the next five seasons: 10%, 13%, 13%, 13%, 15% if they have a $105 mil budget this year that grows at a 7.5% rate over the next five seasons.
By Anders
November 19, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this
Efrim
Now, the Rays aren’t THAT great of an offense, but 10 starts against the Red Sox and Yanks. That is tough.
Which is exactly why I hate interleague play. The Mets play the Yanks 6 times every year regardless of who the rest of the division plays. Best you could realistically hope for was a split while others might be playing the likes of KC or the “Old” Rays.The Yanks have been a top team almost since the inception of interleague. Never an easy mark. Just sayin on a cold day here in NY.
By Marty
November 19, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
N8
ONLY the 2002 Angels have won the WS since 1985 while having a player (Vlad), take up as much as 16 percent of their percieved payroll.
Be careful with assumptions which are based solely on simple correlation. An excellent example is the widely held belief that artificial sweeteners cause cancer in humans. There may be additional recent, reliable support for that assumption (although I haven’t seen any), but the original basis for that contention was simply this:
Because of this correlation, it was suggested in a journal of some sort that #1 had caused #2. (Let’s ignore other studies on the subject for now, please, because the simple contention I just stated WAS made without the benefit of additional information.)
The fact that two occurrences coincide or one follows shortly after the other does not mean that one has caused the other; hence the usual meaning attributed to the word “coincidence.” Simple correlations are a favorite tool of those creating junk science and statistics, and that one seems like an excellent example.
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
Marty
Why did you use Halladay’s career ERA but not use Peavy’s career ERA of 3.25?
In five of Halladay’s last seven seasons he has pitched 220 innings or more. He has also faced lineups with a DH in them, as oppose to a pitcher. Jake Peavy has pitched 220 innings once in his entire career. Obviously, Peavy is four years younger, but he would have to throw 220 per year over the next four years to equal Halladay. And again, little different when you aren’t facing the pitcher.
Halladay’s ERA’s since 2001:
01: 3.16
02: 2.93
03: 3.25
04: 4.20
05: 2.41
06: 3.19
07: 3.71
08: 2.78
No doubt, Halladay is four years older. But if I am judging who is the better pitcher, I am taking Halladay.
By richbrave
November 19, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
DAVID O’BRIEN:
FYI.While searching for a BBQ vendor to ship some goods to LEW I ran across a book you might find interesting. “BOB GARNER’s GUIDE to NORTH CAROLINA BBQ” $11.01 + shipping. Published in 2002. Don’t know of any newer editions. It’s a little dated, but as you know, the really good places endure forever and from generation to generation.
By Braveheart
November 19, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this
Sorry, but it’s just not that clear that Yunel Escobar will be a superstar, and he certainly isn’t one yet. He slugged a rather poor .401 in 2008, and during his short major-league career, he has posted a rather pedestrian .793 OPS.
That rather “pedestrrian” OPS of .793 is good for sixth amongst all MLB SS since he arrived in the majors. Try another clueless attack. That one backfired on you.
By crabapple
November 19, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this
If you were Peavy would you want Escobar be included in the trade? I think not. Signing Furcal would almost seem inevitable if he is dealt. The shortstops mentioned on here either provide good defense and poor offense or visa versa.
By Nate
November 19, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this
Frank Wren is chatting on MLB.com tomorrow afternoon.
By richbrave
November 19, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this
SHAUN:
REALLY!!!!
By Ritchie from Scotland
November 19, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this
I don’t mind a bit of cricket it’s its one day stuff, test cricket is extremely boring. Anyways I live in Scotland and although they play cricket a little its very much an English game. I’ll get my sport fix watching my football(soccer) and yours. I like the NFL, breaks up my winter.
On the Doc Halladay subject, i really don’t see the Jays trading him, especially if they can’t resign Burnett. Haven’t read anywhere that the Jays want to go into full rebuild mode but thats what losing those two pitchers without adding anything just as good would be. The Jays pitching is their strong point.
By DannyFish
November 19, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this
If the Blue Jays are indeed open to a trade for Halladay then our solution for a top tier pitcher is easy…set our package of players that we are willing to trade out for both of them to see. Then when one jumps you either take the deal or see if the other team would take the deal for lesser prospects.
By DAP
November 19, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
brooklynbrave no on rios. his contract is outrageous.
braveheart Santana also lacked a no trade clause
are you sure? i think he had one. he would only waive it if the recieving team signed him to an extension.
By Marty
November 19, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this
Efrim - I balked (no pun intended) briefly at using career ERA for Halladay and not for Peavy, but elected to do so since Halladay’s greater number of innings made it more sense to do so, whereas Peavy’s career ERA is skewed by his first season and the one bad (mediocre) season 3 years ago. By contrast, Halladay has been, as your numbers show, wildly inconsistent from year to year (although never bad).
I think we agree that there are two different questions here — who is the better pitcher, and who is the more attractive trade target right now. I think a good argument can be made for either one of the two being the better pitcher, but I think that it’s pretty clear that Peavy is the better trade target. Also, keep in mind that since the Jays have not indicated that they have any particular need to trade Halladay, they would likely demand more (proportionately or otherwise) than the Padres will.
By Duke
November 19, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this
Old Clintons in Grey is pretty tasty BBQ. Ever heard of Damien Rice? 9 Crimes by him is pretty good. Also Honey and the Moon by Jospeh Arthur is spectacular. Check it out. DOB, season finale of SOA tonight. Hope they dont do Oppie in.
By d-rock in scotland
November 19, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this
Ritchie,
Glad to hear your not the only reader of the blog over there in scotland. You a Scot or an expat?
I lived over in Aberdeen for the last 3 years. I’m actually just in the process of moving back stateside to New Orleans. Braves need to open up a haggis stand next to skip and petes, no doubt. The stuff is actually really tasty, no joke. That and a fine single malt, glenfarclas perhaps, is a great combination.
In an ideal world we’d snag a solid bat in left, and frenchy would return to form. I like the idea of signing ibanez, and spending/focusing on pitching.
I wonder how much pressure wren feels to get a really solid team on the field this year, in what might be Cox’s final season? There seems to be some tension between having a real solid team in 2-3 years with some of this rising young talent and Hudson returning, and trying to capitalize on the veterans which are already here. Correct me, but that seems to just be Chipper and Smoltz at this point. And Smoltzie is a huge question mark. I really do pine for the days of the ‘big 3’. Wonder if we don’t have the making of that with Morton, Hanson and JJJ?
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this
Just wondering… Stan Kasten, former head of the Braves now with the Nationals, spins the 102 loss Nats as being reasonably on the verge of a break through…
The 90 loss Braves, needing 2 top of the rotation pitchers, relief help, and a clean up hitter, say they are going to contend next season.
Baseball is a business.
By Cliff
November 19, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this
DOB,
Do you think Schafer might start the year in Atlanta?
I believe he is legit (I am a Schafer fan and love the fact tht San Diego would rather have Gorkys); however, he has hit under 700 OPS in minors last year and in Mexico AGAISNT LEFTHANDERS (projection to ML level is like 550, better than Corky but worse than Josh Anderson and Gregor Blanco or even Scott Thorman). Schafer won’t learn to hit lefthanders unless he plays against them. This team is ALREADY dreadful against lefhanders AND faces lefthanders 40 % of the time. So playing Schafer regularly at ML level this year means NO POINT IN PUSHING TALENT OUT THE DOOR TO GET PEAVY, WE WILL NOT COMPETE.
IF somebody is willing to platoon Schafer (or if he looks over matched) De Jesus gives you either (1) a platoon partner in center or (2) a guy to replace Francoeur WHEN he is awful again or (3) someone to cover an injury to the “new bat for left field”.
By N8
November 19, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this
Marty if you’re being sarcastic about the artificial sweeteners comparison to a team NOT winning with one player making 16 percent of the payroll.
Kudos. It’s funny.
If you’re being serious, you’re seriously dillusional.
It is NOT coincidence my friend. 1/6 of the payroll is being taken up by 1/25 of the roster. Leaving the other 5/6 of the payroll to cover 24 guys. Do the math.
Then, when you take into considerattion, that MOST teams that have a single player making that much money, are going to have another player or two making ANOTHER big chunk of the change.
For instance, Chipper. Then add in McCann, Soriano, and Gonzo (along with the part of Hudson’s salary that insurance doesn’t cover), THEN assume that IF Wren is able to sign another top end pitcher for about 10 mill per season (ha ha ha ha ha), you now have about 50 percent of your payroll going to going to about 5 or 6 guys.
You wanna know why the Braves stunk last year? Because Chipper, Hampton, Hudson, Tex, Smoltz and Glavine combined to make about 70 million of the 100 (or so) million dollars of the payroll.
Leaving 30 million (or so), for 19 other guys.
Which leaves us with enough money for a guy like Corky Miller to be the backup.
That roster would have been hard enough to win with, but then when you factor in that Smoltz, Hudson, Glavine and even Chipper missed significant time due to injury, along with Tex “starting slow”.
That roster was doomed from the get go.
ZERO room for mid-summer add ons.
In order for logic to work, the Braves (LM) would need to significantly raise payroll to make a contract of that magnitude continue to work. And pray to god that he doesn’t get hurt.
Braveheart
Thanks for the breakdown of the contract, it changes things a bit, I guess.
By Josh H
November 19, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this
As an extension of your post above Braveheart:
Prado posted an .838 OPS this year. That’s excellent.
Unfortunately, given his minor league statistics, he’s also higher than you would expect from him.
I think its much more likely that Prado becomes a .720 OPS hitter than an .800+ hitter. Prado hit quite a few balls to the warning track last year, and outfielders really didn’t seem to respect that he could do that. He’s in trouble if they start playing him deeper. He really doesn’t have the type of power to hit the ball out.
I really don’t think you trade an average 2nd baseman, who is a good hitter with potential to become a great hitter, to replace him with an average 2nd baseman defensively who is a good hitter this year but won’t be more than average at best.
With that said, I love Prado on the bench. He can give you a quality at bat and is an adequate defensive substitute at several positions.
By Marty
November 19, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
Braveheart
There’s no need to be mean-spirited just because you’re wrong. Sixth-best among SS over a year-and-a-half-long period, during much of which he wasn’t even a full-time player, and you want me to believe that he’s some kind of star? If you want to go that route, though, Escobar had the tenth best OPS of ML starting SS last season. That’s slightly above average, by my math. Before you pipe up about how he was injured or whatever other silly excuse you might come up with, remember again that his career minor-league OPS was .781, which would have bumped him all the way up to 9th. Sorry, but there’s just nothing there to indicate that he’s a superstar.
Again — will Escobar become a superstar? It’s possible. But he’s certainly not one yet, and Peavy is.
By ncscoots
November 19, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
Marty, it’s certainly nice to see you making an attempt, but regurgitating the stats of a single ML season limited by nagging injuries and holding up minor league career stats crushed by a season under Jeff Blauser won’t feed the bulldog. You gotta try a little context, bubba.
As far as “solid” defender and “good” arm as a characterization, I’d call that somewhat short of the mark. But, in any event, +20 SS with .800 OPS (in an off year) are hardly plentiful and “easily replaced”, as some here bray. That was the only point I was making.
By Lee in S GA
November 19, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this
I guess Pete and Skip’s BBQ at the Ted don’t make the list. Assuming this franchise will continue to run at the stadium.
By stamper
November 19, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this
the atlanta braves need to start over. it’s been a long time coming, and we’ve been in denial for too long.
we have some great talent coming up…we need to focus and develop that talent. trading away pieces of the puzzle now won’t be very beneficial for us in 2010 and beyond… and that is really when we’re going to seriously compete again. not in 2009. sorry.
keep escobar. keep morton. keep hernandez. all 3 of those guys are going to be worth it.
i still say we make a move for Sheets in a 2 to 3 year contract. maybe 10 mil a year… he likely won’t get much more due to the health risks.
By Bobbymahlon
November 19, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
DOB: As far as I can see you never answer back my question to you why you think Schafer will be playing centerfield in place of Anderson. I pointed out what Josh brought to the table last year in my blog (7;56pm on 11/08).So you owe me one.
By Marty
November 19, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
Since it appears that there are some people on here who are really angered by anyone challenging their relatively baseless, preconceived notions about how good Escobar is, let me just put it as simply as I can, and try not to include any actual information which might invite further attacks:
Yunel Escobar is a good shortstop. He is not a great shortstop. He is not in the same class as Hanley Ramirez, Jose Reyes, or Jimmy Rollins, nor is he even close. He may prove to be in the second tier of shortstops with such guys as JJ Hardy, Jeter (now), Peralta, etc., but he probably isn’t even there yet. Finally, Escobar is old enough that it is unlikely that he will improve significantly as a hitter from this point on.
Please understand that we are not discussing throwing Yunel Escobar into a pit or releasing him for no reason. We are talking about the possibility of trading him for Jake Peavy. Jake Peavy is already great, and all available indicators and scouting reports point to him continuing to be great. Great players do not come cheaply, whether on the free agent market or by trade.
In summary, if you want to argue that the return (Jake Peavy) is not great enough, then that’s fine, and we can agree to disagree. But please stop pretending like Yunel Escobar is better than he actually is now, regardless of what you think he may someday be.
By Braveheart
November 19, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
are you sure? i think he had one. he would only waive it if the recieving team signed him to an extension.
Yeah, you’re right. Santana did have a NTC.
The bottomline, however, is this:
An extremely limited market of one for both trades. The cost/benefit in terms of relative salary scale to the receiving team of the incoming contracts was the same in both trades.
Before the trade was finalized, the Mets had more club control over Santana than the Braves would have over Jake.
The Mets didn’t trade Reyes. The Braves shouldn’t trade Escobar.
Wren was a gentleman and gave Towers a fair, just and maybe too generous offer. Towers was a greedy fool and blew his chance for a fair and just offer.
By Loan Shark
November 19, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this
Amazin
Can you come back and lead everyone with a much needed Peavy cheer?
By ncscoots
November 19, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this
Simple correlations are a favorite tool of those creating junk science and statistics, and that one seems like an excellent example.
Marty, there’s hope for you yet, LOL. Good one.
By Marty
November 19, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this
nscoots - I didn’t know that “context” meant considering irrelevant occurrences and baseless assumptions. What I really don’t understand is what you’re basing your reasoning on with respect to Escobar, if not his numbers, which you claim not to paint an accurate picture. That “single ML season limited by nagging injuries” is the only one we have, and your comment about “minor league career stats crushed by a season under Jeff Blauser” is perplexing and just plain silly. That’s the information we have available to us at this time. I’ve watched Yunel play since he came up just the same as you (may) have, and I, too, have been intrigued by his ability to hit the ball the other way with regularity and his good plate discipline. However, the facts are that his statistical performance has been relatively consistent since he hit the minor leagues, and it is unlikely that, at age 26, he will suddenly see a huge spike in performance. If you want to make assumptions based on nothing other than happy feelings and good wishes, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
By favreiszeus
November 19, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this
DOB
Thanks for the heads up on the Triad BBQ info. Wasn’t aware of the level of meat selection nuance that you were talking about - I just knew about the East/West thing - but I will be sure and check out those spots ASAP.
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this
Marty
OPS, to an extent, undervalues OBP. Yunel Escobar had the third best OBP of any SS in the major leagues last year:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?sort=onBasePct&split=0&league=mlb&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&minpa=0&hand=a&pos=ss&startDate=null&endDate=null
Right behind Ryan Theriot and Hanley Ramirez. He is also one of the best defenders in the league with above average range and an elite arm that is in a group with Furcal and Tulowitzski. Escobar is a lot better of a player than you are giving him credit.
By toby cash
November 19, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
I think the Braves would be wise to get pitching help via free agency rather than give up the asking price the Padres want. Be patient and wait on the Farm to produce. Shortstops like Yunel do not come along too often.
By RC
November 19, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
Random note I just came across in an article on Baseball America:
Tyler Flowers is 3 HR away from breaking the AFL record. The current record was set in 2005 by Brandon Wood.
For those who didn’t know, Wood was released by the Angels a couple of days ago. Just a reminder of the fact that great potential doesn’t always translate to great success (for those who think Flowers should be considered “untouchable”).
By RC
November 19, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
Random note I just came across in an article on Baseball America:
Tyler Flowers is 3 HR away from breaking the AFL record. The current record was set in 2005 by Brandon Wood.
For those who didn’t know, Wood was released by the Angels a couple of days ago. Just a reminder of the fact that great potential doesn’t always translate to great success (for those who think Flowers should be considered “untouchable”).
By car3boogie
November 19, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this
“The Mets didn’t trade Reyes. The Braves shouldn’t trade Escobar. “
Two completely different players…Reyes is the type of player the Braves really need in their Line-up…. A true lead-off hitter that reeks Havoc on the base path.
I would love to keep Escobar also but not at the risk of losing out on a Peavy type player.
By Marty
November 19, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this
Braveheart - Jose Reyes and Yunel Escobar are not equivelant players. Sorry, they’re just not. I think that Reyes is a huge douchebag and should be punched in the face, but he’s just a much better player than Escobar. I don’t think you’ll find much of anyone familiar with the game and both players who would claim otherwise.
N8 - According to Cot’s Baseball Contracts, Chipper earned $15MM in 2005, and the Braves’ payroll that year was $86,457,302. That’s 17% of the total team payroll. The Braves made the playoffs that year, although they did not make it to the World Series. Are you seriously suggesting that, had Chipper made a million less that year, the Braves would have had a substantially better chance of winning in the playoffs that year?
I could come up with a number of similar examples, but it should be pretty obvious what an absurd proposition that is.
By Marty
November 19, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this
Efrim - Maybe I am undervaluing Escobar, but I think that it is equally clear that some folks on here are overvaluing him and undervaluing Peavy.
By Lew
November 19, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this
RichBrave-Appreciate the BBQ efforts, Dude. As to the back yard turkey-The wife is a veggie-tarian and it would be a waste. We’ll just go out to a restaurant for Thanksgiving. Not much use to cook the whole dinner thing with the kids in Florida. However, I can do it if a bunch of Denizens were to just kind of show up. Doubtful anyone would find us out here in the boonies, though.
By Braveheart
November 19, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this
Braveheart There’s no need to be mean-spirited just because you’re wrong.
You’re right that I shouldn’t be mean spirited. However, you are the one who is wrong.
Sixth-best among SS over a year-and-a-half-long period, during much of which he wasn’t even a full-time player, and you want me to believe that he’s some kind of star?
Dude, you said his numbers were pedestrian. You were the one who cited his year and a half ops. I wasn’t the one who started that, you did.
Then when I showed you how wrong you are because that “pedestrian” ops was actually sixth best at SS over the extent of the “career” numbers you yourself first cited, you turn around and say those numbers of that period of time don’t mean anything because he wasn’t always full time.
If that was the case, why were you the one who first called his MLB sixth best amongst SS numbers “pedestrian”?
Can’t have it both ways.
As for “star”, “superstar”, what are you talking about? Who cares about these silly labels. They’re moronic. I don’t care if he’s either. if he never gets better, I’d take .800 ops and +20 defense from my SS every year for the next 100 years (definitely true when they are making the league minimum).
Hell, even if he only had a .670 ops but was giving +20 defense, he would still be just as good as a league average SS. +20 defense, +15 positional marginal lineup value. Not easy to locate or replicate.
If you want to go that route, though, Escobar had the tenth best OPS of ML starting SS last season. That’s slightly above average, by my math
Yeah, yeah, what’s the better sample to measure statistical value: The last season small sample size or the larger year and a half sample size.
Again — will Escobar become a superstar? It’s possible. But he’s certainly not one yet, and Peavy is.
There you go again with the silly “ace” and “star” talk of an eighth grade goober that means nothing in terms of creating the run differential needed to win games and totally fails to take into consideration the cost/benefit of the incoming/outgoing contracts and what that does to the rest of the roster
By JimD
November 19, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this
Why do people keep saying things like “I don’t think Peavy alone makes the Braves playoff contenders” and such as that?
Well, DUH!!
I don’t believe anyone DOES think that Peavy alone is the magic fix for the team - especially not the Braves FO. That is why they are looking at 4 needs - 2 starting pitchers, a power bat in LF, and a LH reliever. FW said so himself.
By Nate
November 19, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this
Marty,
Its Yunel’s replacement cost that shifts this Peavy deal from good to bad. In order to acquire Peavy they not only have to take on his contract costs, but the market rate for a player of Yunel’s caliber.
Yunel’s value comes not in his current (good but not great ) ability but in his relatively low salary. He’s young cheap and expensive to replace on the open market.
By Denny Harrel
November 19, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this
As a retired H.S. coach I’ve enjoyed your articles, and since I play in a band, I’ve always enjoyed the song lyrics, but now that you refer to KU as “your” Jayhawks, we may be bonded for life. Go Hawks!
Denny
By Braveheart
November 19, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this
Braveheart - Jose Reyes and Yunel Escobar are not equivelant players. Sorry, they’re just not. I think that Reyes is a huge douchebag and should be punched in the face, but he’s just a much better player than Escobar. I don’t think you’ll find much of anyone familiar with the game and both players who would claim otherwise.
No sh!t sherlock. Sorry you failed to follow along. I never said they were as good. It’s just about trade pieces. The Mets didn’t have to trade the similar (even if slightly better) trade piece. The point is that the Braves should match their trade pieces to what the Mets traded away.
And although I do agree with you that Reyes is better, what led you to that conclusion? Was it the career ops of Reyes that is 25 points lower than Escobar’s? Was it that Reyes is not a +20 defender like Escobar? Was it the career obp of Reyes that is 40 points lower than Escobar’s? I mean, at least be consistent.
By ncscoots
November 19, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this
If you want to make assumptions based on nothing other than happy feelings and good wishes, then we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Marty, old son, happy feelings and good wishes are just about the last thing I use in forming opinions.
Jeff Blauser was the manager for Escobar’s (and Saltalamacchia’s, and a bunch of other players) AA year. Nearly every prospect on that team with any ceiling underperformed, relative to their other minor league years. Think that had any impact on the career stats of those players? Just spitballin’, here, and attempting to dispel any perplexity. For I cannot abide being thought silly AND perplexing.
By Dru
November 19, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this
Nate Wren will be chatting on mlb.com tomorrow at 3 ET
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this
ncscoots
Jeff Blauser was the manager for Escobar’s (and Saltalamacchia’s, and a bunch of other players) AA year. Nearly every prospect on that team with any ceiling underperformed, relative to their other minor league years.
I had never heard that before. I don’t disagree with you because I’m sure you know. But it’s something that never really crossed my mind. Good stuff.
By Tomas
November 19, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this
Scott Boras wants Zito money for Lowe. Oh come on, that guy is nuts. I think they should ban him from baseball.
Wren if you’re plan is to sign a pitcher in the FA market please sign Burnett. I rather get ripped off getting a 32 year power dominant pitcher, than a 36 year old Derek Lowe for 18 million per year.
If the Braves get Jake Peavy, I think it needs to be what they were offering, Yunel Escobar, Gorkys Hernandez, Charlie Morton, and Blaine Boyer. NOTHING MORE.
By BB FAN
November 19, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this
RC
Are you sure Brandon Wood was released by the Angels? That just doesn’t seem likely. He’s only like 22 or 23 years old with maybe 150-175 at bats in the majors. I would be surprised if they gave up on him already. He started to come on in September last year if I remember correctly.
By Marty
November 19, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this
Braveheart - You accuse me of using only the statistics I like — which, of course, is not accurate since I provided OPS across his entire minor-league and major-league career. If you really want to believe that the 1.5-year sample size is much more reliable than that of the single full season that he played, then fine. If you want to say that words like “star” and “superstar” are meaningless, I’m with you. But then don’t start waving around these garbage stats like “+20 defense” and “+15 positional marginal lineup value” to try to make your point. I know that you think that you’re on the cutting edge of statistical baseball analysis, but is it just a little bit possible that the reason those silly stats are not used by everyone is not because you and a few select others are gigantic baseball geniuses? I could make up any number of stats and call them important-sounding things like “overall player value” and “super-awesome defensive rating!” but that really wouldn’t get us anywhere either.
The debate of which stats are more valuable than others is an old one and won’t be decided here today. I, for example, will always maintain that a pitcher’s performance over time is best demonstrated by ERA, while WHIP is the best indicator of whether a pitcher’s especially low or high ERA is an aberration or an expected result of the number of baserunners he allows. I also believe that strikeouts is grossly undervalued by many as a (negative) hitter’s statistic and grossly overvalued by many as a (positive) pitcher’s statistic. You can find legions of fans, sportswriters, etc. who disagree. Both sides can make compelling points, although, obviously, I think that mine are more compelling.
So, again, if you want to rely on those defensive stats and say that those tell the tale, then again, we will have to agree to disagree, as I don’t recognize those stats as having any significant value.
The important point, though, is that according to what we now know, Yunel is not one of the top handful of shortstops in the majors. He’s just not on the same level as Reyes, Ramirez, and Rollins. I wish that he were, but he just isn’t. Beyond that, the rest (including whether it makes sense to trade him for Peavy) is arguable.
By DAP
November 19, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this
marty Jose Reyes and Yunel Escobar are not equivelant players. Sorry, they’re just not. …he’s [reyes] just a much better player than Escobar.
im not going to argue with you, because i think reyes is a very good player, but consider that escobar does have him beat in career OPS.
escobar’s OBP is .373 to reyes’ .336 (which, to me, is about as low as a respectable MLB player can have their OBP) and escobar’s slug is only .016 points behind reyes’.
also, because escobar had his career start late because he was stuck in cuba, he will be entering only his 2nd full MLB season.
they will never be the same player, because reyes’ speed sets him apart, but there are things that yunel does better. like get on base. (and im pretty sure yunel is rated better defensivly as well)
By N8
November 19, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this
Marty
“According to Cot’s Baseball Contracts, Chipper earned $15MM in 2005, and the Braves’ payroll that year was $86,457,302. That’s 17% of the total team payroll. The Braves made the playoffs that year, although they did not make it to the World Series. Are you seriously suggesting that, had Chipper made a million less that year, the Braves would have had a substantially better chance of winning in the playoffs that year?”
Quite simply? It’s sure possible, isn’t it?
I don’t remember the trade deadline that year. But perhaps there was a guy that they wanted to go get, but ALSO wanted to stay on course with their payroll, thus refused to take on payroll.
Perhaps a player they passed on, was the missing link that year?
Keep in mind. I’m not saying it’s IMPOSSIBLE. For one, that would be wrong, because the Angels already did it.
What I’m saying, is that it’s LESS LIKELY to field a TEAM capable of winning it all, when you commit too much money to one guy, but even more so, when you commit the majority of your payroll to a few guys.
Think about it. What wins close games all year long, but more importantly, in the post-season?
That’s right. Bench and bullpen. When you have a certain payroll you’re trying to stay under, and yet you fancy yourself as a “contender” you’re going to have a strong everyday lineup, and ideally you’d like to have a strong top 3 in your rotation, along with a closer.
What suffers when a team is on a “budget”? Bench (Corky Miller), bullpen (Blaine Boyer), and rotation depth (Mark Redman).
One could argue that the teams that win in October are the ones that either A) have ZERO limitations on their budget (but notice that since the Yankees have had Arod taking up more than 16 percent of their payroll they haven’t won a WS), or B) don’t skimp on their bench and bullpen.
Hell, look at the 95 Braves. They went out and got Devereaux and Polonia at the deadline. Two guys that arguably were VERY responsible for not only gettting to, but winning the WS that year. If I’m not mistaking, Devereaux was the NLCS MVP that year, right?
The other option, where the payrol doesn’t come into play as much, is when you have an extremely young (and inexpensive team) that comes into their own and has a strong year. IE: 2008 Rays and the 1991 Braves.
But keep in mind, both of those teams failed to win it all.
Who knows? Maybe had the Braves made the WS last year, Corky Miller would have been the WS MVP and a folk hero would have been born (along the lines of Jerry Willard or Fransico Cabrera).
I just looked up the box scores for some of those 2005 playoff games against the Astros. You wanna know who the main guys off the bench were that year?
Langerhans (316K), Orr (300K), Betemit (316K), and KJ (salary NOT listed).
That’s barely over 1 million dollars for the bench.
See where this is going? Had Chipper (or any of the other big guns salry NOT been so high, JS could have had a bigger gun on the bench.
But only having so much money to fill the roster out, hampers the GM when a budget is involved.
Continue arguing if you must. But like you claiming you can find more examples, I can do the same (just looking at the Braves) where the bench wasn’t as strong as one would like it to be for a playoff run.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this
This negotiation for BURNETT is absolutely critical for our success over the next three years. Whatever it takes - 25 million a year - whatever. Call me crazy, but that’s how it shapes up to me.RichBrave
OK, you’re crazy. (Believe me, at 25 mill per year, you didn’t need to instruct me to call you that; I would’ve anyway.)
I disagree, too, about your point. The negotiation of Burnett isn’t as important or as potentially impactful as the negotiations for a Peavy trade, which is why I think the Braves will get it done. They realize its importance.
Raddad, I don’t think you’re dreaming regarding Hamels vs. Peavy on opening night. I think that’s what we’re going to see.
By ncscoots
November 19, 2008 4:25 PM | Link to this
Maybe I am undervaluing Escobar, but I think that it is equally clear that some folks on here are overvaluing him and undervaluing Peavy.
Jeez, Marty, I’ve said myself that I might think more highly of Escobar than might be warranted, LOL. Nothing new there, just ask any of the longtime posters. And who said anything about undervaluing Peavy?!? He wasn’t even part of the conversation.
The whole point (mine, anyway) was that including Escobar in a Peavy trade, however logical or necessary or whatever, will hurt the team in some ways. Just as getting Peavy would help, in some ways. My intent was not to determine the plus/minus of that equation, merely to point out that the balance of it is not so radically shifted as some here imply.
By woogidy
November 19, 2008 4:25 PM | Link to this
Screw Peavy, get Halladay! He pitched 9 complete games last year. Power and Innings eaters are #1 priorities for this team!
By N8
November 19, 2008 4:25 PM | Link to this
Marty
“Jose Reyes and Yunel Escobar are not equivelant players. Sorry, they’re just not.”
The same could be said for Peavy and Johan, not?
By Marty
November 19, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
Braveheart - The conclusion that Reyes is better than Escobar probably had something to do with the fact that he absolutely destroys Escobar in runs (proportionately or otherwise) and stolen bases. If we were talking about a couple of cleanup hitters, I doubt it would matter much, but when you’re talking about guys who are both basically slap hitters with a little bit of power (admittedly, Escobar having a bit more than Reyes), speed matters — and Escobar doesn’t have any.
nscoots - That is an interesting theory. Have you heard any players or coaches involved with Blauser’s administration echo it?
By Braveone
November 19, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
Mesa & Peo Saguaros are playing now & the winner wins the American division of the AFL. Saguaros are leading 4-3 going to the 7th. If Mesa wins, Hanson will pitch in champtionship game on Saturday. Go Mesa!!!
Follow live here: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=20081119msswinpeswin_1
By BravesFanInRockies
November 19, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this
FWIW, Brandon Wood wasn’t released by the Angels. He was released by his Dominican League winter team:
http://www.latimes.com/sports/printedition/la-spw-angels18-2008nov18,0,6426145.story
That is all.
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 19, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
RC…BB FAN…
Brandon Wood was recently released by his winter league team…no the LA Angels…The LA Times reports he may still make the club out of Spring Training next year.
By Wilbur
November 19, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this
There was a rumor that Halladay will be available if the Blue Jays don’t sign Burnett because they feel they won’t be competitive. Wouldn’t Halladay be a better option for the Braves? I think he is better than Halladay as he pitches deeper into games and in a tougher division. Maybe we could get him if we add Flowers as the 3rd piece in the deal. Remember just because prospects are hot now it doesn’t mean they will be can’t miss. This time last year Morton was almost as good as Hanson.
By siskel
November 19, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this
I honestly don’t know too much about OPS, OBS, sabernomics, or even fielding %, BUT, I have watched every game for about 8 years and almost every game for 8 before that and I know what my eyes tell me. If anyone thinks KJ is better than the Lemmer because he had a higher slugging percentage, your delusional. If you think Escobar has potential to do what Edgar Renteria did for us 2 years ago your crazy also. Edgar got clutch hit after clutch hit, same as Lemmer. Jeff Francouer had some crazy stat where he had the most hits or rbi’s with runners in scoring position 2 years ago just behind or ahead of Arod (I honestly can’t remember exactly), but niether one of those guys seems to really hit when there team needs it, and are nowhere near as clutch as Big Papi. My point is this is not fantasy baseball you can’t measure intangibles with a stat, take Dustin Pedroia for example, he had good numbers but his numbers did not win him the MVP, his timing did. Escobar might be real good one day, but my eyes tell me he is not going to get much better, and that some people place him on a pedestal he hasn’t earned yet.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this
I agree with Marty: Jose Reyes is a far superior offensive player to Escobar. Perhaps Escobar develops into a comparable player, but right now Reyes hits for more power, steals tons more bases, and hits right at about .300 with a .350-plus OBP (not off-the-charts great, but fine considering what else he does.) I didn’t even mention the man’s 65 triples in the past four seasons.
Yunel has seven steals (in 15 attempts) and 66 extra-base hits (15 homers) in 230 career games and 833 at-bats.
Reyes had 56 steals and 72 extra-base hits (16 homers) last season, after stealing 60 or more bases in each of the previous three seasons). He hit 19 homers in 2006 at age 23.
Oh, by the way: Reyes is actually eight months younger than Escobar.
That said, Escobar is a damn good player with an incredible arm, great hands and good range, and he has All-Star potential, if he keeps developing. Really does. It’s just that Reyes is one of the best leadoff men in a couple decades, very dangerous and disruptive offensive player.
By Dan
November 19, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this
DOB
Assuming the Braves dont sign Burnett, they have “no hand.” The Padres realize that the Braves need Peavy very bad.
Do you see the Padres “strong arming” the Braves into giving up more than they originally wanted to part with?
By RC
November 19, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this
BB Fan,
I think you are right about Wood. I cannot remember where I orginially read that, but I can not confirm it anywhere so I doubt it actually happened. I should have checked before posting, my bad.
By RC
November 19, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this
BB Fan,
I think you are right about Wood. I cannot remember where I orginially read that, but I can not confirm it anywhere so I doubt it actually happened. I should have checked before posting, my bad.
By Moby Grape
November 19, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this
That rather “pedestrrian” OPS of .793 is good for sixth amongst all MLB SS since he arrived in the majors. Try another clueless attack. That one backfired on you.Braveheart
thats true, but taken within the context of the line-up it is still just .793. The guy is not a real star nor irreplaceable and a stud pitcher for 5 years is worth more than a .793 SS.actually worth more than probably any SS in baseball.He would even be under contract as long or longer than Yunel who will probably not be resigned as a free agent.
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this
Dang. Guess it got spammed. I had submitted a post linking in all of Towers comments on the Peavy deal from October 1st through November 2nd… It was goooood.
By RC
November 19, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this
BravesFanInRockies; Don’t Trade Franceour, Sheesh
Thanks for the clarification. I am and idiot.
By DAP
November 19, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this
siskel you can’t measure intangibles with a stat, take Dustin Pedroia for example, he had good numbers but his numbers did not win him the MVP, his timing did.
if by intangables you mean hitting well in certain situations, you absolutley can measure that. they are called situational stats. you can google it.
and i do think yunel can provide what edgar did. they are actually pretty similar hitters.
By Marty
November 19, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this
Nate - Its Yunel’s replacement cost that shifts this Peavy deal from good to bad. In order to acquire Peavy they not only have to take on his contract costs, but the market rate for a player of Yunel’s caliber.
Yunel’s value comes not in his current (good but not great ) ability but in his relatively low salary. He’s young cheap and expensive to replace on the open market.
That’s a very interesting argument, and one which I haven’t seen made as cogently elsewhere. I suppose that my biggest problem with that is the length of his major-league track record, which the argument which I have, perhaps, not been articulating well enough. Call me old-fashioned, but I always like to see a guy perform at a consistent level in the major leagues before determining what kind of major-league player he is. Granted, that makes it difficult to decide whether to trade Yunel now, because we can’t wait 2 years, or 3, or 5, to decide whether to make this trade. But still, for the same reason that some folks don’t want to trade for Ludwick (although that’s arguably a different scenario, since the issue is whether his undeniably good stats this year were an aberration, where they are supported by his minor-league stats), I am gunshy about holding onto Escobar at the expense of getting a guy like Peavy int he hopes that Escobar is as good as his one year of service indicates.
So, while the point that you and nscoots and even Braveheart have made (some more convincingly that others) about Yunel being a good major-league shortstop is fairly convincing, I guess I should say that my major concern is whether he will continue to be a good major-league shortstop, continue to get better, continue to get worse, etc. At that point, I realize that some of my own arguments can be used against me, since his minor-league stats support the assumption that he will continue to play at his current level, etc…But I’m not entirely closed to the possibility of changing my opinions, you know.
Suffice it to say, it’s a difficult decision to make whether to trade Escobar for Peavy, but I think I would support a trade for Peavy.
By richbrave
November 19, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this
DAVID:
I believe PEAVY won’t come to ATLANTA without a FA top tier arm already on board. And 25 million might be necessary to snare one. Again, call me crazy, but I disagree with you about this one. Of course, we’ve disagree before. Sorry.
I went along with the PEAVY thing because it made sense as you laid it out. Trades and all. The BRAVES offered a fair deal. It hasn’t yet been accepted. You certainly have more insider knowledge than I do, but I think I’m correct here in saying the PEAVY wants to be with a contender. At this stage we’re not. Until some move is made in that direction, I thing we’ll stay at an impass. Maybe a FA center-fielder will help.
By Novice Ned
November 19, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this
* I really am a novice. I’ve been perplexed about why we *must have a power bat in left field. I mean, other than CF, every starting position player has the potential to deliver at least 50 extra-base hits, 75 RBI and hit .280+. With that much production on the field, why not get a good base-hitter and maybe some speed in LF to complement similar traits from our CFer, right?
Now I get it. We’re not planning to enter the season with Escobar and/or KJ nor does Wren have complete faith that Frenchy will turn things around. And plugging in an Infante/Prado/veteran IF with 2 years left in their career is a lot easier than finding a power-hitting corner outfielder at a reasonable price.
So what that says is that if the Peavy deal falls through, then Wren likely has a few contingency options in his middle desk drawer. But at the end of the day, he is NOT planning on having Esco and KJ turning double plays next season. Wow… maybe I’m on my way to losing my novice label.
By ncscoots
November 19, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
Have you heard any players or coaches involved with Blauser’s administration echo it?
Only by inference…I believe it was his only year managing, and he wasn’t asked back. And I probably shouldn’t imply that Blauser was some kind of performance-sucking demon (though I guess I have, in a way; I might just be seeing a spurious correlation, LOL). But more than one player on that squad had a performance blip.
By Stop being a homer
November 19, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this
just because escobar is going to get traded don’t mean you have to throw him under the bus. the braves are trading away too much for peavy. he is going to end up having arm surgery.
By Bobby's Cox
November 19, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this
Regarding Lowe. I hear a lot of folks here talk about how dependable he is (and they’re right, he doesn’t go on the DL, doesn’t miss starts) and what a horse he is. DOB
If you want a SoCal opinion on Lowe, they see him as both solid and shaky at the same time out here. His past year was better than the last couple. He’ll give you a good game, followed by a poor one. They still debate which Lowe is going to show up on the talk radio stations before his starts.
Not as “solid” as the consensus on this blog. If I remember correctly, he had one helluva year in the free agent year before he left Boston as well. Someone here called Burnett a money pitcher over the last few days. Lowe would definately be in that category.
By Anders
November 19, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this
DOB
Glad I scrolled down to your 4:35 post before I answered some of the ridiculous posts regarding Jose Reyes above it. You said what needed to be said. I also agree that Escobar has the potential to be as an exciting player as Reyes. Not in the same mold but with other skills Reyes doesn’t possess.
Regarding your earlier post of :
The negotiation of Burnett isn’t as important or as potentially impactful as the negotiations for a Peavy trade, which is why I think the Braves will get it done. They realize its importance.
I think you feel that it’s not realistic to expect Escobar is going to be pulled from the deal because of a change in market conditions, but do you feel the Braves will almost have to sweeten the pot and are just waiting to see by how much?
By ppaddy123
November 19, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this
DOB if I start my post with DOB will it get noticed more? Will DOB answer my ridiculously repeated questions if I refer to him as DOB? If I ask DOB a specific question about Peavy, Burnett, Lowe, Furcal, Sheets, Halloday, a power hitting outfielder or any other previously mentioned free agent or trade, will DOB answer those questions if I start with DOB? Huh DOB, Huh?
C’mon guys. If all these stupid, redundant questions are getting old to someone like me that usually only reads the blog and rarely posts, it has to be murderous to our host. However, I think I have a solution…..DOB (sorry, I couldn’t resist) you should start each new blog with a set of answers from old, previous blogs. It would be real easy, just cut and paste. Then you could appoint some of the fair minded, regular posters on here to issue head noogies to the violators that don’t read the set of answers at the beginning of each new blog.
So, there you have it. Problem solved. What do you think DOB? Huh? Huh?
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this
Stop being a homer: Not throwing Yunel under the bus at all. In fact, I just added this to my previous comment to clarify:
Escobar is a damn good player with an incredible arm, great hands and good range, and has All-Star potential if he keeps developing. Really does. It’s just that Reyes is one of the best leadoff men in a couple decades, very dangerous and disruptive offensive player.
To compare them is silly. Different type players. Escobar can never be a leadoff man like Reyes, and will never have his speed. So far, hasn’t hit for his power, either, but has a great line-drive swing and a better arm than Reyes, by a wide margin. And better hands.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this
Richbrave, so you’d pay A.J. Burnett the same thing basically ($25 mill per year in a multi-year deal) that CC Sabathia is going to get? Yes, we disagree on this one. Strongly.
By Braveone
November 19, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this
Things are looking good for Mesa. They scored 4 in top of 8th to take 7-4 lead. Saguaros are batting in bottom of 8th. Looking like a good chance to see Hanson pitch on Saturday in AFL championship game!
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this
I believe Reyes stands appart from Escobar due entirely to the terms: Dynamic. Game Changer. Electric. And pretty much whatever else baseball Press likes to tag him with. Escobar has some work cut out for him in order to obtain such lofty labels. But those are the things that matter. The labels. It’s all about the labels.
By Iron Labrum
November 19, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this
DOB…I was wondering, following PeavyGate and the blog crash this weekend…how hot is your copy(# of hits) relative to ajc.com?…I’ve got to figure you more than hold your own, even compared to the “Top Stories”. I accept that like most of the denizens my perspective might be slightly warped… I fully admit to checking feverishly over the weekend (even during the football game) just on the off chance I’d see a blue name blackberried in with some facts….Now I don’t want you to opt out of your contract or anything ;) (maybe just renegotiate), but I’ve got a feeling this blog fills up the stat sheet.
By kdbanks
November 19, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this
The Braves are not in a position to pay anyone $25M per year, so all this talk is absurd. We can’t pay one guy such a large percentage of the salary available - I don’t care if its Sandy Koufax, David DeJesus or Flip Murray.
By Marv Kleeman
November 19, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this
Hey Erik:
In response to your post at 2:20. My biggest fear about a Jake Peavy trade is it will be a redux of the Mark Teixeira trade.
Do you realize we have become a de facto farm system for the Texas Rangers. The players we sent to Texas are coming up in waves. The first wave was Salty. The second wave was Matt Harrison. The third wave will be Elvis Andrus (who we were told was “untouchable”) and Neftali Feliz.
But you know the worst part of the Teixeira trade? We had already agreed in principle on what players to send Texas when at the last moment Texas GM Jon Daniels informed us Matt Harrison had a bad wing and we had to include another player. So you know what John Schuerholz did. He coughed up yet another prospect, lefty starter Beau Jones.
I see many of the same elements taking shape in the Jake Peavy trade as I saw in the Tex trade.
By Nate
November 19, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this
So, it seems to me that we’re pretty evenly divided on Peavy trade on this board. But the only thing that really matters is what Frank Wren thinks, and what avenues he’s pursuing.
The rumor mill has been pretty quite this week. Has there been any real new piece of information since last Friday?
By Marty
November 19, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this
nscoots - It is mighty suspicious that he only managed down there for one season. Now you’ve got me curious…
By Anders
November 19, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this
kdbanks
The Braves are not in a position to pay anyone $25M per year, so all this talk is absurd. We can’t pay one guy such a large percentage of the salary available - I don’t care if its Sandy Koufax, David DeJesus or Flip Murray
Might I tempt you with David Wright?
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this
I see many of the same elements taking shape in the Jake Peavy trade as I saw in the Tex trade.Marv Kleeman
Marv, the Braves traded five highly rated prospects to Texas for a player who’d be a free agent after the next season.
They would likely trade two or three prospects, and a good young player (Escobar), to the Padres for a 2007 Cy Young Award-winning pitcher who’s under contract for either four or five more seasons, depending whether option is exercised.
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this
Scoots: I believe it was his only year managing, and he wasn’t asked back
It was his only year managing. At least in the Braves system. And I can’t find him in any other system so I’m inclined to believe his managieral days are on hold or over completely.
I also recall the issues of his team, which was attrocious if I remember correctly. He had a lot of good prospects who under performed with him. This topic came up during the Salty for God campaign of a few years ago. Additionally it came up, I think, under the Don’t Trade Renteria, Escobar Stinks debates of last off season. Yunel’s AA stats were sited as proof he was not good.
I think this is also where that Baseball Prospectus guy founded his— Yunel is nothing more than a fring Bench player— analysis. But he never came out and said it. I haven’t seen a retraction from that guy either. He’s probably pretending he never typed those words.
Nevertheless, The Chin wasn’t a good manager. During the games you could hear the kids in the dugout complaining… “I wish he wouldn’t point that thing in my direction.”
By Bubdylan
November 19, 2008 5:27 PM | Link to this
I have not seen anybody ask this question, but maybe I’ve missed it, as it seems like an obvious consideration.
Why has Wren committed to making his FA pitching move in the same year that the Yanks are being so aggressive? If we get stuck with two unsatisfactory contracts just for the sake of contending in 2009, we’re messed up for the next 4 years. But whatever’s out there next year, the Yanks will already be (presumably) fixed on pitching, leaving the field in great shape for a 40-50 million-spender. Wasn’t there a stop-gap solution to give us an outside chance at a fun 2009 (Randy Johnson?) and let us get the good FA’s next winter?
Wren’s saying he doesn’t want to risk our future by sweetening the Peavy trade, but isn’t it risking 4 years of our future to get stuck with 2 less-than-Burnett-Peavy guys at the top of the rotation?
I don’t think it’s impossible to field a good team with Wolf & Perez up front, not with some luck and hitting. But, man, it just seems like if we held our top prospects and waited out just ONE winter without spending risky, we’d DEFINITELY have a great future starting in 2010. Next winter we’d have Jurrjens, Hanson, a good read on Hudson, and money to spend. And who knows, something from Jo Jo or Morton wouldn’t be impossible. I’m trying not to be a knee-jerker here at this early stage, but… we’re not putting the next 4 years on the line in a desperate attempt to give Bobby a swan song are we?
By Braveheart
November 19, 2008 5:27 PM | Link to this
That’s a very interesting argument, and one which I haven’t seen made as cogently elsewhere
Oh, I’ve been saying that for two weeks Marty. Like alot of bloggers, you walked into a conversation mid-stream and thought you were going to be know it all who told everyone what’s what and who’s who but as it turned out you were without a clue.
By Braveone
November 19, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this
Mesa wins 7-4! Braves pitcher Kris Medlen get the victory. Hanson will start for Mesa in the AFL championship game on Saturday 11/22.
By richbrave
November 19, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this
DAVID:
STRONGLY!!!!
But not on BBQ. Would you like a copy of BOB GARNER’s book.?
By Braveheart
November 19, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this
nscoots - It is mighty suspicious that he only managed down there for one season. Now you’ve got me curious
Marty, the Blauser thing is common knowledge to most. Has been for two years. Let us know when you catch on
By GSU-Lee
November 19, 2008 5:32 PM | Link to this
DOB, sorry if you have already answered this, but do the Braves have any interest in Sheets or Penny? I mean if you are interested in risking money on a guy who might get hurt, like Burnett, why not get one of them for cheaper? They have both shown that if they are healthy they can perform well. On a side note, that was one helluva rotation the marlins had (Beckett, Burnett, Penny, pavano)
By Marty from Roc City
November 19, 2008 5:35 PM | Link to this
DOB, i started reading this blog last spring training but am a first time poster. I really hope the Braves land Peavy, I just don’t like the free agent options. Especially considering the Yankees, Met’s, and a few other teams are really gonna open the wallets this year.
As a long time fan of the Shield i gotta agree with you, last night was one of the best hours of tv i have ever watched. I was glued to my chair and cannot wait till next week.
By MattyRoss
November 19, 2008 5:42 PM | Link to this
I gotta say, all of the Peavy talks are becoming torturous. I feel like a kid on, say, November 19 who keeps hearing about an awesome new toy and is just hoping to get it for Christmas. At this point I just want Christmas to come so I know if I have to start saving up my money for something else…
By Bubdylan
November 19, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this
Alright, Mesa! Now my 15 bucks on offseason mlbtv won’t be wasted. (when I first bought it, I thought they were showing this past week’s Hanson game).
By bsj
November 19, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this
Another Decatur man here with a vote for Maddy’s, though Daddy D’z is pretty good, too. And having grown up in eastern SC (which does the vinegar-based ‘cue), Shuler’s near Marion, SC (Hwy 38 towards Bennettsville) is a nice distraction. I don’t know how often you get to the swamplands, but it might be worth a bike ride South of the Border.
It would be impossible for me to find the post, but I remember predicting after Hampton was scratched from his first start last season that he would come back and be effective in the second half. And I think he’ll be a top half guy for the Braves this coming season. I know, I know… I’m just saying it first, here and now.
By Lou Vales
November 19, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this
You want baseball?/ I’ll talk baseball. The team signing Affluent Jaker Burnett will rue the day. He epitomizes the Salary Drive guy of the 50’s and 60’s. Of course in the present day you don’t really need a salary drive because even inflated value guys like Mike Jacobs have arbutration see to their needs, Any team looking at Burnett can look at easily accessible data that will show he has LITERALLY NEVER won a MEANINGFUL game in his life. As Casey said—“You can look it up”. His wins will come after his performances over early part of a year have essentially played his team out of it. With apologies to dogs everywhere, he REALLY is a dog. AND I guarantee he will have an appointment with good old Doc Andrews within 6 months of signing the deal. He will break down as assuredly as that Dodge Omni, Pontiac Fiero, Chevrolet Corvair and all those other icons of the Big 3 auto industry. I guess Adam Jmes at least has stopped showing off his nipple rings which should be of some solace to the writers of any team he signs with. I believe it was Adam’s mother who called up a radio talk show host who was making fun of Adam’s ‘command” in his 7 walk no hitter against the Padres. Maybe Mrs Burnett will be able to refute some of that documentation I mentioned—But somehow I doubt it.
By Braveheart
November 19, 2008 5:54 PM | Link to this
But then don’t start waving around these garbage stats like “+20 defense” and “+15 positional marginal lineup value” to try to make your point. I know that you think that you’re on the cutting edge of statistical baseball analysis, but is it just a little bit possible that the reason those silly stats are not used by everyone is not because you and a few select others are gigantic baseball geniuses? I could make up any number of stats and call them important-sounding things like “overall player value” and “super-awesome defensive rating!” but that really wouldn’t get us anywhere either.
Marty, again, you started this by calling his ops “pedestrian”. You were shown to be wrong on that one as he has the sixth best ops and second best obp for all MLB SS since he arrived in the majors.
Since you cited the ops first, what meaning or value did you want me and everyone else to attach to that? Seriously? You asserted it had value because you incorrectly believed it made Escobar look bad. But what was that lack of value you wanted us to believe it had? Was it just a number? Just wondering. Why bother citing it if you don’t understand why you’re doing it and don’t understand the underlying meaning of the stat you are using? You didn’t seem to understand what the stat meant relative to other SS or to the average SS. You just incorrectly thought it made Escobar look bad so you used it
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 5:57 PM | Link to this
Peavy is a bit overrated. But only in the regular season. His real value lies in the post season
I just noticed this when I went back up through the blog. First, a prior point I skipped over as well. If we are expecting a 3.31 ERA, it is better than Lowe and Burnett due to the age and years of the player and contract.
But back to Coach’s statement… I’m really surpised (maybe I’ve missed it on the blog, very possible) that this is the first time post season has been mentioned concerning Peavy. Especially with this crowd. Either it has matured in quantitative analysis over the last few years, or this has been completely over looked. But, well, in the past this angle would have been documented as yet another reason NOT to get Peavy… The Big Game reason… post season games, game 163, games you must win or go home… those type games… his stats in those games aren’t that impressive, to put it gently.
By Lou Vales
November 19, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this
Sheets=Commercial Real Estate Burnett=Sub Prime Loans Penny=Citibank Sabathia=Property on San Andrea Fault Not only Buyer Beware, BUT Buyer Be Forewarned. Peavy=Under the mattress.
By Bubdylan
November 19, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this
lol, lou, you are definitely a couple croutons short of a loaded tater.
By LT- A Blogger
November 19, 2008 6:07 PM | Link to this
So now the Cubs are back in the driver seat? I guess my Yankees belief earlier today was off (today at least). Maybe I’ll be right again tomorrow.
Cubs land Peavy they’re gonna have one heck of a rotation- possibly best in the league. Is that true that Jason Marquis is gonna make 10 mil this year? Good grief.
Is this Towers last stand to get FW to throw Hansen in? Anyone else think that or is that story legit? I’m thinking Peavy may be pushing this trade with the Cubs.
By BrandonS
November 19, 2008 6:10 PM | Link to this
Dan Graziano of the Newark Star-Ledger explains why C.C. Sabathia is taking his time while mulling over the Yankees’ six-year, $140MM offer. Graziano believes Sabathia and his agents are waiting to see what the Dodgers propose.
Graziano speaks of “rumblings today that the Dodgers either have offered or are about to offer Sabathia a six-year contract worth between $110 and $120 million.” He believes this could compel the Yankees to increase their offer, just to ensure a ridiculous ($30MM+) gap between the two proposals.
Graziano has a source who continues to insist the Blue Jays will explore the market for ace Roy Halladay, who has two years and $30MM left on his deal. In that case, he believes the Dodgers are the most likely match. If the Dodgers acquire Halladay, they would focus on Manny Ramirez rather than Sabathia.
I would go after Halladay if Peavy falls thru
By N8
November 19, 2008 6:16 PM | Link to this
T-Paul
In fairness to Peavy, the playoffs are just a crap shoot, right (says with eyes rolling)?
Other than Smoltz (and Glavine’s 95 WS game 6 masterpiece), most of the Braves pitchers havne’t been that great in the post-season.
But since we’ve missed the post-season 3 years running, even I (who could really care less if we get Peavy or not), can admit that he’d help us in games 1-162 to GET TO the post-season.
Where a kid like Hanson (think young Smoltz and Avery in 91 & 92), could dominate, as could a “not worn down” JJJ.
Not saying it’s a given that Peavy would stink in October. But getting there is half the battle.
Having the horses to win it all, is another.
By garla
November 19, 2008 6:18 PM | Link to this
Another thing we need to remember about Escobar is his age. He was older than most kids when he was drafted. He’s hardly old but he just turned 26. I agree that he’s a good looking young player but I think I would be more concerned about trading him and his ceiling if he were 23 or 24. I know we need power but I think Furcal brings a lot to the table that we’ve missed since he left the first time. I think if we could get Peavy and Furcal, we could probably settle for a little less power in left and probably a less established pitcher. Both would still be a priority but we might could take more of a chance on potential than an established player commanding a huge contract or big time prospects.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 19, 2008 6:21 PM | Link to this
Love how guys quickly give a solution for Peavy. Turn to Halladay? Dude is not avaliable. Why does half of the world think Jays wants to trade him…not happening. Lowe wants 16M according to Boras. This would be a cheaper route than Peavy.
Peavy is much younger and could deliver a better future.
So with the Moose retiring, are Yankees going on a major shopping spree for pitchers?
Why not Ibanez? He would be better option than Ludwick, IMO
By Nate in Maine
November 19, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this
Its been a long time since I have posted anything. I have found that alot of you are right on about the peavy deal. I would agree to wait it out. The more and more I think about it I would be happy with a team of young kids. I dont want the braves to out bid. Look at the free agent class for next year and take a year off from being competitive.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 19, 2008 6:25 PM | Link to this
From the MLB Hot Stove Blog:
“You know how Padres GM Kevin Towers says he’s still taking to the Cubs about a possible deal for Jake Peavy? Well, a Cubs source told MLB.com on Wednesday that those talks have ended. The Cubs could either sign Ryan Dempster or add Peavy in a trade, but can’t afford both. With Dempster agreeing to a four-year contract on Tuesday, that pretty much ends discussions with the Padres about the right-hander.”
— Carrie Muskat
By Lou Vales
November 19, 2008 6:28 PM | Link to this
Halladay and Peavy ARE worth it. Look up flotsam and jetsam in the dictionary and there will be pictures of Burnett and Sheets on examining tables. These guys should have Andrews on retainer. Even Sabathia, I mean the possibility of early calcification of the arteries must be factored in with this guy. He gives new meaning to the word corpulent. It looks like he swallowed Roseanne Barr. You just CAN’T abuse your body like that. It will affect his legs—and basically every organ with a viable function. Fat boys lose it really quick. Go back and look. Only real exception is Mickey lolicxh and he was born fat.
By GRRRR!
November 19, 2008 6:28 PM | Link to this
Marty, the Blauser thing is common knowledge to most. Has been for two years. Let us know when you catch on BH
Wow, sounding like Random today dude. whats up?
By Nate in Maine
November 19, 2008 6:29 PM | Link to this
Jasonin FL(formely ME) The weather in maine is about 20 degrees F and windy. DOB, What do you think about the braves waiting til next year to sing some players?
By Tacitus
November 19, 2008 6:30 PM | Link to this
In an attempt to momentarily divert the Peavy man-crush, any possibilities about Carlos Lee (given suitable medical clearance) as an outfield possibility if Houston dumps salary?
As for BBQ, Wallace’s in Austell is quite good.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 19, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this
siskel,
Pedroia didn’t win the MVP merely because of intangibles. He won it on measurable performance: 118 runs scored, 74 extra-base hits, a nearly even K/BB ratio, 20 out of 21 stolen bases, a .376 OBP.
He put up numbers comparable to Joe Morgan in his prime (Little Joe got on base more often, but Pedroia has a bit more power) and in those days, Morgan was one of the dominant players in the game.
I could argue that Youklis had a better overall season, but I have no problem with Pedroia’s win
By Andy K.
November 19, 2008 6:34 PM | Link to this
DOB has said this many times, yet none of y’all can get this through your heads: Trading a ML SS, A AAA Pitcher, and two prospects, for a star pitcher you’ll have through 2012 is very, VERY, different from trading a slew of prospects for a certain power-hitting 1B whom you’ll only have for a year and a half! (In our case, and year.) The Peavy deal is planning for the future…we’d have our ace for the next 4-5 years. and if you can sign a SS like Furcal afterwards, it’s not too much of a loss. I think the Braves-Pads deal for Peavy gets done by or at the Winter Meetings. Hopefully sooner, as Wren needs worry about other things.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 19, 2008 6:34 PM | Link to this
Nate in Maine, dude, what part of Maine do you live in?
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 6:36 PM | Link to this
Carrie Muskat must not have read that Dempsters signing with the Cubs granted Towers more leverage. Otherwise Carrie may have reworded that paragraph to imply that the Cubs might still be somewhat interested if three or four other teams were included in the deal. Those three or four other team deals are where Towers really shines!
By MiamiBeachBravesFan
November 19, 2008 6:45 PM | Link to this
I despise redundancy as much as the next guy or gal, DOB, so I apologize if this topic has been broached before in this blog. From the little scrolling I have done, it has not.
If the Braves were balking at giving the Padres Hansen, I think that Peavy for Escobar-G. Hernandez-Boyer-Morton or Reyes is already giving up A LOT to a team that needs to dump salary anyway. Certainly, the Cubs cannot put together a package near as good as the one described above. I agree with Frank Wren, the Padres will get Hansen when Smoltz-Glavine-Maddux all turn 30 again and re-sign with the Braves for the league minimum.
In turn, the Bravos should insist on the Pahds throwing in Khalil Greene. That way, we solve the SS situation and only have to worry about re-signing Hampton and getting a LF via trade or free agency (preferrably).
Wudduya think, DOB?
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 6:45 PM | Link to this
One concern Towers cited last week is that Atlanta might be unwilling to give Peavy blanket no-trade coverage for the rest of the contract – which would be a deal-breaker with any club, Peavy’s agent, Barry Axelrod, said Tuesday.
“If you’re opposed to a no-trade, you’re opposed to Jake Peavy, because he’s going to have a full no-trade,” Axelrod said. “The one thing we’ve been consistent with, and one element of a contractual differential that we’ve shared, is that Jake’s no-trade powers will be full no-trade powers, because he will lose his 5-10 (full trade veto) rights at the time he is traded by the Padres.”
Axelrod made the same point six weeks ago; presumably it wouldn’t surprise the Braves.
-Tom Krosovic, Nov. 18th, 2008
Yes. Doesn’t sound like those two are communicating potential deals at all.
By Tomas
November 19, 2008 6:54 PM | Link to this
If the Braves don’t get Jake Peavy, Aj Burnett, and/or Derek Lowe, they have no chance of winning next year.
I would also like Scott Baker, Aaran Harang, or Francisco Liriano, but the chances of those guys to get traded are very slim.
My guess is the Braves sign Raul Ibañez, Randy Wolf, Junichi Tazawa, and Mike Hampton. Just hope they don’t sign Jon Garland, or they’ll finish 5th worst than the Nationals.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 6:58 PM | Link to this
MiamiBeach: Braves are NOT trading Hanson, have said so repeatedly, not left any wiggle room. Not trading him, haven’t considered trading him, won’t consider trading him.
And from my understanding, they have no desire to take on Greene and his $6.5 mill salary. Already have one guy with a sub-.300 OBP last season in Francoeur, don’t need to add another in Greene.
They’d rather replace Escobar, if they have to, with a free agent or guy they trade for from another team (I listed some options they’d consider higher up in blog).
By richbrave
November 19, 2008 6:59 PM | Link to this
kdbanks:
If the BRAVES can’t pony up 25 million for BURNETT they better stay out of the kitchen. The heat’s intense in there just as it was last year with JOHAN SANTANA. And we are all well aware of the result of not being competative in that sweepstakes. Its just the way it is which is why signing PEAVY makes so much sense. You’re getting him on the cheap - so to speak. I think you’ve got to be prepared to do both, BURNETT and PEAVY and the only one you can control right now is BURNETT. So bid away, and get him signed, 16 million - 25 million whatever it takes. Then take inventory afterward and see what’s left. Otherwise you’re just whistling in the dark.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 7:00 PM | Link to this
DOB, What do you think about the braves waiting til next year to sing some players?Nate in Maine
I don’t think I quite understand your question. If you’re talking about writing off the 2009 season and not spending money until 2010, that’s not an option from Braves’ perspective, so kind of pointless to discuss it, at least as far as I’m concerned. Feel free to, however.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 19, 2008 7:00 PM | Link to this
TennesseePaul
That was JS that mandated the no trade clause. I remember DOB saying that might not be the case with Wren. I would think the G.M. has control of contracts and its his/her decision to place such restrictions. In the current baseball era, no trade clauses are common.
By Tomas
November 19, 2008 7:07 PM | Link to this
If the Peavy trade isn’t made because the Braves don’t want to give Peavy a no trade clause it would be a stupid move. Wren can’t afford to miss on a trade like that in a year when he needs to get an ace, to not make it because he doesn’t want to give Peavy a no trade clause.
I also think there is no way Wren deals Peavy once he gets to Atlanta. So why not give him a no trade clause.
I don’t believe that is the reason why it hassn’t been done. I believe the reason is the Padres want more prospects from the Braves, and the full no trade clause terms haven’t even been discussed because the SD haven’t been satisfied with the group of players Atlanta is offering.
I hope that is the case, because otherwise, it would be very stupid.
By Wayne
November 19, 2008 7:09 PM | Link to this
Can someone tell me how CoCo Crisp is significantly different than De jesus?
By Nelson
November 19, 2008 7:10 PM | Link to this
I like Yunel, but I understand there is no comparison between him and Reyes, Reyes is overall much much better player! Yunel is not a lead-off hitter, when he started with the braves he was doing everything a 2nd. hitter should do, bunting, hitting the opposite way to advance the runner, but lately he caught Andrew and Francoeur disease,trying to pull everything, why/ I don’t know!!! Otherwise Furcal has all the tools a lead-off hitter could have, but he doesn’t use them a 100%, he many times wanted to hit hard instead of bunting, hitting big bounce and run to get on base. The best lead-off hitter in the mayors is Ichiro Susuki, he does everything a lead-off should do, no wonder he is the leader in hits every year and Furcal has almost the same abilities, but again he doesn’t use them.
By Wayne
November 19, 2008 7:12 PM | Link to this
No way that the “no-trade” clause is holding up a Peavy deal…. A non issue.
By Lew
November 19, 2008 7:13 PM | Link to this
Scppts-The year Blauser managed, I talked to him momentarily at Spring Training. I’m not sure what the exact question I asked him was, but it was something along the lines of “Do you think you’ll enjoy managing?” His response always made me wonder, but in hindsight is telling-“I don’t know. I never did it.”
By AdirondackDave
November 19, 2008 7:14 PM | Link to this
DOB — Tyler Flowers (and some others) are racking up huge homer totals in the Arizona Fall League. Are these numbers comparable to what they might be able to do in AA or AAA, or does the climate, thin air, etc. inflate the homer totals in your judgement. Thanks.
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 7:14 PM | Link to this
Owl: Yes. I know. But it was Towers and Axelrod who’ve said that no specifics of trades had been discussed, yet their history of statements seems to imply the two are working more closely than they let on… my earlier post chronicaling this didn’t make it through. I think it had too many links.
By Lew
November 19, 2008 7:15 PM | Link to this
That was supposed to be Scoots-not Scppts. I just got back from the eye Doctor. Eyes are still dilated.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 7:15 PM | Link to this
im not going to argue with you, because i think reyes is a very good player, but consider that escobar does have him beat in career OPS.
escobar’s OBP is .373 to reyes’ .336 (which, to me, is about as low as a respectable MLB player can have their OBP) and escobar’s slug is only .016 points behind reyes’.DAP
With all due respect, why would you use Reyes’ career OPS when it’s been so radically improved, and consistent, over the past three years?
I mean, who cares if Reyes’ career OPS is .336, when he’s a 25-year-old player who has posted OBPs of .354, .354 and .358 in the past three seasons (after posting OBPs of .334, .271 and .300 from ages 20-22.
Seriously, DAP, what is more relevent, the fact that he’s had OBPs of .354-.358 for the past three seasons, or the fact that he had an OBP barely above .300 for that first three-year period at an age when most players are still in the minor leagues?
Come on, man. Ryes is a two-time All-Star who’s received MVP votes for each of the past four seasons. And you’re going to cite the fact that Escobar, in a season-and-a-half, has a career OBP that’s 40 points higher?
Nevermind that Reyes has posted OPS totals of .841, .775 and .773 over his past three seasons. No, let’s go with the career totals, skewed downward by his sub-.700 OPS totals at the ages of 21 and 22.
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 7:17 PM | Link to this
They would likely trade two or three prospects, and a good young player (Escobar), to the Padres for a 2007 Cy Young Award-winning pitcher who’s under contract for either four or five more seasons, depending whether option is exercised.
If by two or three prospects, you mean, Gorkys, Morton and possibly another not named Hanson, than okay. Once we start talking about including more prospects(plural) other than Gorkys and Morton, then the deal just doesn’t make sense. I know, let’s not get crazy over a pitcher like Jeff Locke. But he may be used for another trade to fill one of our four holes(SS, SP, LF, LH reliever) after this Peavy deal is made.
By Bubdylan
November 19, 2008 7:20 PM | Link to this
“Can someone tell me how CoCo Crisp is significantly different than De jesus?”-Wayne
One is cereal and the other is Lord?
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 7:20 PM | Link to this
If the BRAVES can’t pony up 25 million for BURNETT they better stay out of the kitchen. The heat’s intense in there just as it was last year with JOHAN SANTANA. RichBrave
Seriously, have you taken leave of your senses? Why on earth would the Braves pay $9 mill more PER SEASON to get Burnett and make him one of the two or three highest-paid pitchers in the game. That’s absolute lunacy. I will not address your absurd suggestion again. Seriously, that’s just ridiculous….
Adirondack, the ball’s flying out there, but that doesn’t negate the fact that Tyler is absolutely raking. He’s got three more homers (12) than anyone else, and his OPS is about 200 points or more higher than the next-best.
By AdirondackDave
November 19, 2008 7:23 PM | Link to this
TOMAS — It would be very hard for me to believe Wren would pass up Peavy because of the no trade clause. The guy is a stellar pitcher and exactly what the Braves need these days. Besides that, if the Braves suddenly wanted to dump him for payroll reasons (highly unlikely), they could still go to him and request that he waive clause which me might or might not do. Wren would lose Peavy to keep Hanson or Heyward but not for a no trade clause.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 19, 2008 7:24 PM | Link to this
TennPaul, I don’t think there is any question that Towers and his buddy Axelrod are in bed together trying to get something done. That being said, I still do not believe the reports, even the one from a “friend” who talked to Jake while he was on vacation, that says Peavy will not come to the ATL. I do believe that if Jake really wanted to go to the Cubs or someone else that Axelrod and Towers would work together, plant seeds in the media, etc.
By Steve from OH
November 19, 2008 7:26 PM | Link to this
Adirondack, the AFL has been (at least this season) a very favorable hitter’s league, which makes what Hanson has done all the more impressive. There have been a TON of high-scoring games out there this fall.
By Tony Austin
November 19, 2008 7:27 PM | Link to this
If Wren wasn’t going to allow the no-trade, negotiations probably would’ve never started.
What does it matter though, the Yankees are going to throw obscene amounts of money at all the top FAs anyway.
By ncscoots
November 19, 2008 7:29 PM | Link to this
While I agree that adding Peavy to the Cubs rotation might make it the best around, my second response would be “So what?”. Who thinks that adding Peavy would add 10 games to the plus side for the Cubs? Anyone? Let’s see, that would project them to 105+ wins, right? Sure. Gotcha.
The Cubs already have a studly rotation with the guys they have, and adding a Peavy wouldn’t make a significant difference. Hard to believe, I know, but Chicago is going lose 50+ games, I don’t care if Cy Young in his prime is resurrected and added to the staff. On a staff that already has Zambrano, Harden, and Dempster, it’s hard to justify another $80MM for, at best, incremental success.
Pinella is ho-hum on the prospect of acquring Peavy for a reason.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 19, 2008 7:30 PM | Link to this
Towers and Axelrod are friends and I don’t believe anything they say. Really.
Yunel Escobar, Jo-Jo Reyes, Jorge Campillo, Gorkys Hernandez, Tyler Flowers and either Cole Rohrbough or Jeff Locke in exchange for Peavy and Greene.
We get our ace in Peavy and Greene to cover the SS position Coach
Back to the drawing board for you! That proposal would already be done with Towers. You don’t even like Peavy and now you want to dump a dead contract on top, and throw away all that talent away? Coach your Mr. Know it all. What happened last night.. ? No need to explain. You like to believe Peavy is old news one minute and turn around show a proposal that has a dude that Braves don’t want .
By BravesFanInRockies
November 19, 2008 7:31 PM | Link to this
Geez, Louise, the race card again?
Lessee, the same GM ran the team when it was owned by Ted Turner, AOL, Time Warner and Liberty. So that argument fails.
And the Braves got Kenny Lofton in the Justice/Grissom trade, and Michael Tucker came in the Dye deal, so that argument doesn’t work.
As for Andruw, well, he’s from Curacao, so he’s not even an American, strictly speaking, let alone an African-American.
Try again. Or not.
By Win one for Bobby
November 19, 2008 7:36 PM | Link to this
yes, a swan song for Bobby is appropriate if you look at it that way, We should get Peavy at any cost and go ahead and get Ibanez. Furcal if we lose Yuni, or stick Lili at the number 8 spot and let him develop.
By rotty
November 19, 2008 7:43 PM | Link to this
No GM on earth will offer Burnett 25mm even if he mixes crack with his cheerios.
Burnett will be had for 16-17mm/yr for 5 years possibly by the Braves but more likely by the Yankees after CC says thanks but no thanks and signs with the Dodgers.
By Tomas
November 19, 2008 7:44 PM | Link to this
DAP, DOB,
I 100% agree that Jose Reyes is a better player than Yunel Escobar. I think Yunel has the potential to be an all star someday, but consider that Jose Reyes is younger than Escobar, and has already been in two allstar games. Also comparing Escobar speed to Reyes is like comparing a rabbit and an elefant. Reyes steals 60 bases on average per season, hits close to 300, and hits 15 or more homers per season, with a 350 OBP, plus he also plays good not great defense.
I think Reyes is #2 or 3 among all current SS in the Majors.
Hanley Ramirez
Jimmy Rollins
Jose Reyes
Michael Young
Derek Jeter
Rafael Furcal
JJ Hardy
Yunel Escobar
Cristian Guzman
Mike Aviles
Those are my top 10
By Jake Peavey
November 19, 2008 7:45 PM | Link to this
Wassup, yall, I can’t wait to come to Atlanta. I’m going to show you how a real pitcher works. I just wonder if I should tell Mr. Wren that my elbow has really been barking at me lately. Aw, that shouldn’t matter. Mr. Wren’ll sign me anyways. Besides, ain’t this the same team who signed a feller by the name of Len Barker and his elbow was barking at him too? Heh, no pun intended on the “Barker”. Can’t wait to come to Atlanta and ride the pine on the DL just like yall’s buddy Mikey Hampton.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 19, 2008 7:46 PM | Link to this
stick Lili at the number 8 spot and let him develop
I’m sorry Frenchy has that spot taken. Let Frenchy develop in front of Hampton. Hampton will assure him the needed AB..
By Nocturnal Owl
November 19, 2008 7:49 PM | Link to this
Tomas I’d rate Mike Aviles much higher than Guzdud…
To me Aviles is underrated and will have a solid year..maybe i’m thinking fantasy terms there.
By Couch Tater
November 19, 2008 7:50 PM | Link to this
Tennesseepaul the two are working more closely
Paul, that’s what I’ve figured all along. Did you see the live chat this morning on the SanDiego Tribune site with Tim Sullivan? At 11:05 he said Towers told him a trade to Atlanta would most likely be vetoed by Peavy. My question at 12:38 was why would Peavy veto a trade to a team that was on his short list. My next question was going to be just what you about those specifics, but the chat bell rang.
The transcripts are on their site , if you want to read.
Dang, y’all have me cravin’ some BBQ!
By BosnianBaller
November 19, 2008 7:57 PM | Link to this
Maybe the Braves should take a page out of the silverbacks page and fold the 2009 season.Afterall we are all looking forward top seeing the 2010 Braves with Hayward and Hanson.
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 7:58 PM | Link to this
I was reading the Trading DePo(desta)’s take on this matter… the whole thing stinks to high heaven of Axelrod and Towers working to get the trade bounty higher. I lost the timeline of the statements due to the spam filter and me not saving it prior, but it just spelled it out. It took an hour to pour through all the San Diego, New York, Chicago, Atlanta, LA, and Saint Louis papers to get all of Towers’ and Axelrod’s quotes, but when they were all strapped together in one long line it just seemed like a few guys who were working a system. And the entire time, no matter how anyone attempted to spin it, the Braves were the only real offer on the table.
Wren was right to step back. He has other business he can attend to and doesn’t need to wait for these clowns to end their attempts to squeez blood from turnips.
Axelrod is in a tight spot though. He spins things for the advantage of his favorite team “I’m a huge Padre fan” he says… but at the same time he has to look out for his client.
Ulysses Everett Axelrod Damn! We’re in a tight spot!
By Marty
November 19, 2008 7:58 PM | Link to this
Braveheart You’re being an a*, but you already know that. You’re also repeating things that weren’t true the first time (e.g., .793 OPS is somehow good, Escobar is anywhere near the top of the majors’ best shortstops in terms of offensive capability, etc.). How about instead of talking about how Escobar’s OPS is 6th in the majors over a year and a half, which is relatively silly in that it includes half a season in which he was not an everyday player, and you look at what the truly excellent shortstops in the majors have done? Among ML shortstops last year, Escobar was 14th in runs, tied for 19th in doubles, tied for 13th in homers, tied for 11th in RBI, just about dead last in SB, 4th in walks, 8th in batting average, 3rd in OBP, 12th in slugging, and 10th in OPS.
Also, do you even watch the games? Escobar was wildly inconsistent last year at the plate, and I don’t believe that his “nagging injuries” were completely to blame.
Make all the excuses you want, but to pretend like Escobar is an elite SS at this point in his career is just silly.
By get Peavy
November 19, 2008 8:00 PM | Link to this
they need to trade for Carlos Lee & Roy Oswalt, kill 2 birds with one stone
By BosnianBaller
November 19, 2008 8:00 PM | Link to this
Maybe the Braves should take a page out of the silverbacks page and fold the 2009 season.Afterall we are all looking forward top seeing the 2010 Braves with Hayward and Hanson.
By Tomas
November 19, 2008 8:00 PM | Link to this
Nocturnal Owl,
I didn’t rate Aviles higher because I really don’t know if his awesome year was just beginners luck. I don’t know how he plays defensively(I do know they want to move him to 2B, so i’m guessing his defense isn’t that good), and he only played 102 games. If after next year he proves his stats were not just beginners luck then I would rate him higher than Guzman, and possibly Hardy, and Escobar.
By Marty
November 19, 2008 8:01 PM | Link to this
nscoots - Plus, even if the Cubs had a rotation of Maddux, Young, Clemens, Peavy, and Pedro in his prime, they’d win 130 games and then lose in the first round of the playoffs.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 19, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan One is cereal and the other is Lord?
That was hilarious! Funniest post I’ve seen in a long time…
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 8:13 PM | Link to this
Tim Sullivan on San Diego Tribune:
11:05 [Comment From Gustavo] Has Kevin Towers flubbed the trade negotiations on Jake Peavy? It seems like he’s blown negotiations wth Atl, then shifted to Chicago who then signed their starting pitcher to FA, now Towers seems to be flailing around to see if anyone will bite.
11:06 Tim Sullivan: Kevin Towers is working his angles as he always does. Part of the problem is it’s hard to tell how much flexibility he really has. I think Peavy is willing to go to a couple of places, but not many, and that could tie Towers’ hands. Towers told me last week that he thought if he worked out a trade to Atlanta, Peavy was likely to veto it.
11:27 [Comment From gremkin] I’m glad KT didn’t take the Atlanta offer, possible veto aside. No way anyone should get Peavy w/o giving up at least their top prospect. He IS what they’d hope their top prospect could become in a best case scenario. And looking like a budget purchase by the day in free agency
11:28 Tim Sullivan: If the Braves aren’t going to include Tommy Hanson, I’m not sure I’d make a deal with them. I was told by another GM that if the Braves really want Peavy, they would include Hanson. But if Peavy doesn’t really want to go there, it’s a moot point
11:45 [Comment From Matt] If Peavy isn’t dealt by the winter meetings, do you think he will be back in San Diego next season?
11:46 Tim Sullivan: Not necessarily. My guess is that the Padres have to make an effort to move him to a team on his short list, but if that doesn’t go anywhere, I would imagine Peavy would prefer to be dealt to a contender outside his preferred list than to pitch for a team with a $40-$45 million payroll and no real chance of contending.
12:32 [Comment From Joe] What’s the deal with Jake Peavy’s trade? Any serious takers at this moment? Are they even close to making the deal?
12:33 Tim Sullivan: I haven’t heard anything specific since I spoke to Towers last week, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the Padres circled back with the Braves. If Towers is right, and Peavy might veto a deal to Atlanta, then it’s probably the Cubs or the Yankees.
12:38 [Comment From stew] Why would Jake veto a deal to Atlanta if they were on his short list?
12:40 Tim Sullivan: I’m getting mixed signals on that. The list Barry Axelrod presented on Peavy’s behalf was not intended to be absolute or comprehensive. It was a list of places he’d be interested in exploring. I don’t rule out several clubs not on that list — the Angels, the Yankees, especially — but I think there are issues with Atlanta. Towers wonders if it’s too close to home for Peavy to feel comfortable, and it could be that he doesn’t think they’re in a great position to compete given their payroll and their divisional competition. But Peavy hasn’t been talking, so I don’t know what he’s really thinking.
I bet he is.
By Couch Tater
November 19, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this
Tennpaul- Yes, but Towers in really in a tight spot too. As one Padre fan said, “he’s got to attend to the estate sale.”
By Kevin Towers
November 19, 2008 8:15 PM | Link to this
Man, if I can get that sucker Frank Wren to go for this, I’ll have all of this young talent from the Braves that’s gonna make my team a power house within the next couple of years! If they would just go ahead and take Peavy off my hands! What I’m really not telling Wren is that Peavy’s elbow won’t make it through spring training! He’ll be on the shelf all year and he’ll be another Mike Hampton. HA HA HA…I’ll laugh about this all the way to the playoffs in 2010! The Braves…SUCKERS!!!!
By ncscoots
November 19, 2008 8:17 PM | Link to this
Heck, I’d rate Escobar the 4th best SS in the division, too…today. Considering he has 800 or so ML AB, and the other three guys have between 2000-5000 (I’m guessing), I’d say it’s high praise that he’s even in the same conversation…today.
All depends on how you read his ability to gain on those three guys over the next 1500 AB, I guess. The other three guys all do at least one thing better offensively than Escobar, while Escobar outshines them with the glove. But Escobar may get better with the bat (or may not, yes, yes, yes), while it’s unlikely the future will bring Rollins a stronger arm, Ramirez better hands, or Reyes more range.
And before the panties get wadded up for some here, I like the other three guys a lot. Heck, I’d hate to be choosing first in a pick’em with all four of them standing around.
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this
One thing seems to be certain, not many people in Baseball think the Braves will win the division next year.
By Liberty Media
November 19, 2008 8:22 PM | Link to this
Hello, this is Liberty Media. We don’t really give a fig about what happens to the Braves. We just want our tax write-off. Maybe if we continue to run the Braves further down, we can move them to Colorado and that way, the state of Colorado will have two major league teams! We are also responsible for bringing you the wonderful porn that you get when you are in a motel room. If we can get the Braves in Colorado, we’re going to make Ron Jeremy the GM!
By Al Davis
November 19, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this
Ooops, wrong blog….
By Mike Hampton
November 19, 2008 8:28 PM | Link to this
Hey Jake, I hope you will get to come to Atlanta so I can have another pitcher to keep me company on the bench. These Braves fools will pay you anyway..I milked them for like, 3 years. You can do it too!!!
By ncscoots
November 19, 2008 8:31 PM | Link to this
One thing seems to be certain, not many people in Baseball think the Braves will win the division next year.
Well, then, scroom, LOL. Stranger things have happened, although pundits being right ain’t one of them. HA!
By Couch Tater
November 19, 2008 8:32 PM | Link to this
One thing seems to be certain, not many people in baseball think the Braves will win the division.
Nah, but whoda thunk the Rays?
By Nocturnal Owl
November 19, 2008 8:33 PM | Link to this
Tomas
I’m starting to believe Dayton Moore is ready to take his team to a higher level. The team is certainly on the rise. Aviles did have a very high average for a rookie (.325). He has been playing well in winter leagues so I feel he will only continue his good work (not so on avg) In nine games, his average was .281 (9-for-32) with five RBIs
Speaking of Royals they have young talent. Dayton and Wren should try to at least attempt something. The Dotel trade worked out for them.
TennesseePaul
If Peavy sees us spend money this offseason this crazy talk would stop.
We do have DOB who continues telling us not to worry about the veto issue. Towers is in a unique situation with this trade. He is dealing with a friend that has limited Towers to very few teams. I truly believe once after all this effort once Peavy is asked he would veto.
Again the agent is friends with Towers. Peavy is well aware of options.
If Peavy didn’t want Atlanta, I’m sure somewhere somehow his agent would know. Therefor his friend Tower would know and not kill so much time with Wren. We just have ID the larger portion of deal. Lets get this done!!!!!!!!!!
By N8
November 19, 2008 8:34 PM | Link to this
To those wondering about the AFL stats (Flowers’ anyhow), being inflated due to weather, park, altitude, etc…
One way of looking at it, is if the hitting numbers are THAT inflated, then it makes what Hanson is doing that much MORE impressive, right?
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 8:35 PM | Link to this
One thing seems to be certain, not many people in Baseball think the Braves will win the division next year.
I know the offseason hasn’t really gotten underway yet, but can you blame anyone that isn’t an Atlanta fan for feeling that way. The rotation has Jorge Campillo starting game 2. Still a ways to go till opening day, but the Braves have a lot of work to do to just get on the Phillies and Mets level.
By McPud
November 19, 2008 8:36 PM | Link to this
Time for a new blog, Chief
By flange1
November 19, 2008 8:38 PM | Link to this
The Towers blog is interesting…..
Before I say this, I know the Braves are NOT TRADING HANSON, but if the the Padres want him so bad, here is my deal:
Peavy and A Gonzales for Hanson and Kotchman.
Straight up, no others involved.
Give Towers 2 choices. The Escobar deal or the Hanson deal. You have 2 days to decide, take it or leave it.
By Steve from OH
November 19, 2008 8:41 PM | Link to this
Keep in mind that Flowers (who played A+ ball last season) is playing amongst the proverbial cream of the AA/AAA crop in Arizona, so even if his #’s are inflated, he’s still got the “dominating better competition” card going for him.
And I second N8’s thoughts on Hanson’s performance.
By John Schuerholz
November 19, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this
Maybe I ought to step down and take over my old job again. That way, the Braves won’t look like a bunch of slackers. Yeah, and it’s probably time to get rid of ole’ Bobby. He’s like a cancer on this organization.
By AdirondackDave
November 19, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this
N8 — You’re right about that. I was one who asked about the big offensive numbers in the Arizona Fall League. Either way, it makes Hanson’s work out there all the more amazing. I can hardly wait for spring training to see how both Hanson and Flowers perform against/with major leaguers. Said before and I’ll say it again, gotta think MaC has one eye in the rear view mirror.
By AdirondackDave
November 19, 2008 8:49 PM | Link to this
Flange1 — I’m inclined to agree. Patience is one thing but this is getting ridiculous.
By sam
November 19, 2008 8:52 PM | Link to this
DOB…If the Braves won’t trade Hanson and that is the deal breaker with the Padres well he better be ready to pitch in Atlanta come April 2009!
By Robert
November 19, 2008 8:57 PM | Link to this
We better not even discuss Hanson with other teams
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 8:57 PM | Link to this
No, it’s not time, McPud/John Schuerholz/Al Davis/Mike Hampton/Liberty Media/Kevin Towers/Jake Peavey, et al (dude, the IP address).
By the way, you misspelled Peavy. Only one “e.”
We’ll let you now when it is time for a new blog. Until then, slow down a bit. Stick with one screen name and relax.
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 8:58 PM | Link to this
Scoots: I’d rate Escobar the 4th best SS in the division
I’d say it’s high praise that he’s even in the same conversation
4th out of five is high praise? One of the five already has a World Series ring and an MVP. The other two are monsters at the plate. And who plays short for the fifth team in the division? Escobar is 4th by default. But if I had all four of them standing in front of me and had to pick, Ramirez without even thinking. He is hands down the best one. Youngest as well. His defense may lack, but that bat makes up for it big time.
By AdirondackDave
November 19, 2008 9:00 PM | Link to this
SAM — If the Ariz. Fall League is any indication, Hanson may be more than ready to come to Atlanta in April ‘09. Let’s see what he does in ST.
By mbatl
November 19, 2008 9:03 PM | Link to this
Team ERA’s in the AFL: Mesa (4.29); Phoenix (5.45); Scottsdale (5.81); Peo Seguaros (5.22); Surprise (7.00 - ouch!); and Peo Javelinas (6.84).
So, pretty clearly, it’s a hitters’ league. But that doesn’t diminish the fact that Flowers is the best hitter in the league. Geez, his SLG % is 1.014 - there’s only 14 players with an OPS that high.
And it sure does make what Hanson has done all the more impressive.
But I’m much more impressed with a dominant streak by a pitcher than I am a hitter… don’t know if that’s logical or not, but seems to me that most any good hitter might go on tear over 75 ab’s, while few pitchers are gonna strike out almost 2 per inning and give up 2 ER over a month in a hitter’s league.
I’m real glad to see Flowers blossoming (ugh…sorry), but would caution not to get too worked up… his numbers at Myrtle Beach in ‘08 were pretty comparable to Salty’s in 2005. And 3 years later, Salty still hasn’t distinguished himself in the majors.
By JimD
November 19, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this
Sam
*DOB…If the Braves won’t trade Hanson and that is the deal breaker with the Padres well he better be ready to pitch in Atlanta come April 2009! *
Really, why is that? Why is 2009 more important than 2010?
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 9:07 PM | Link to this
Time for a new blog, Chief
What in the world could we possibly talk about other than Peavy? We haven’t even reached 700 comments yet.
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 9:10 PM | Link to this
Efrim: The off season may not “really be under way yet” but I do recall last year when the need for more pitching was ever present and the excuse was, It’s only {insert today’s date} there is still time before opening day. By opening day nothing had changed and then the team lost 90 games.
Aside from that, I think everyone not in the Braves wagon (and some in it) realizes that the shopping list is quite large and almost impossible to complete in one off season with a limited budget and a mandate not to move any of the most coveted prospects. (Yes, I’ve heard it is going up. But it is still limited, unlike the Yanks who have pretty much an unlimited budget.) (And Yes, I agree with the mandate.)
By Nocturnal Owl
November 19, 2008 9:11 PM | Link to this
No it’s not, McPud
DOB, Friday you gave us the Peavy news and left. The blog actually made it just over 1100 before the crash.
I’m with you DOB can’t see Towers friend just tell him no to Braves after all this effort. No way this is an issue..
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 9:14 PM | Link to this
Owl: If Peavy sees us spend money this offseason this crazy talk would stop.
Perhaps we should then throw all 40 million at Wolf. That’d be spending like crazy!
By Bubdylan
November 19, 2008 9:17 PM | Link to this
McFann, thanks, I can’t resist a pun. When Pettitte and Wang hit the same rotation my brain almost melted.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 19, 2008 9:18 PM | Link to this
…et al (dude, the IP address).
Ha! Shoulda known they were all the same guy.
Hey! So the Solar Sox (whatever a Solar Sock is…) won the Division? Cool. (Sorry if it’s been stated already. Have only scanned the Blog today.)
Guess Mr. Flowers didn’t homer today. He did have an RBI though…and 2 more strikeouts…
mbatl—
Seems logical to me., but you can’t go by me…
By Steve from OH
November 19, 2008 9:21 PM | Link to this
Time for a new blog, Chief.
And when you’re finished with that, you must bring us ANOTHER shrubbery!
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 19, 2008 9:26 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan—
You’re welcome. That was a good one!
By Nocturnal Owl
November 19, 2008 9:29 PM | Link to this
Ya it would Tennessee Paul That last post to you I did mean he would NOT veto.
You get where I’m coming from? They are friends after all.
Would Barry Axelrod tell Towers sorry can’t after trying to make a deal with Braves or over a month?
Towers himself believes Peavy would accept.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 19, 2008 9:32 PM | Link to this
Forgot to ask:
When Pettitte and Wang hit the same rotation my brain almost melted.
What do you mean?
Steve—
Haha…shrubbery?
Oh man…some good stuff here tonight. Shame I gotta go. Well, maybe I’ll be back before 10, but I’m in the middle of a drawing…
So just in case, Night, all!
By Steve from OH
November 19, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this
McFann, if you failed to grasp my feeble attempt at humor, I suggest you go rent “Monty Python and the Holy Grail” immediately. A must-see film, along with “The Godfather,” parts I and II, and “Happy Gilmore,” IMO.
By Bubdylan
November 19, 2008 9:46 PM | Link to this
What do you mean? -McFann
Err… ne’ermind. :)
By bravesfaninmetsland
November 19, 2008 9:47 PM | Link to this
DOB:
I have to ask.. Did you think Mackey was going to admit to killing Terry Crowley when he took that long pause after signing his new contract?
By Heath
November 19, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this
DOB:
You’ve mentioned the possibility of the Braves having around $40M to $45M potentially available this year… why can’t they sign Sabathia AND trade for Peavy? The addition of both of them won’t consume ALL of the money? I realize this will probably leave them with only $10M or so, but if you have those guys, would it REALLY be necessary to trade KJ for a LFer? Couldn’t we use the remaining money and some more trading chips to get a replacement SS and some middle relief? $40M-$45M just seems like a lot, and it doesn’t seem like we are even speculating about players that would consume all of that. Thoughts?
By Heath
November 19, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this
DOB:
You’ve mentioned the possibility of the Braves having around $40M to $45M potentially available this year… why can’t they sign Sabathia AND trade for Peavy? The addition of both of them won’t consume ALL of the money? I realize this will probably leave them with only $10M or so, but if you have those guys, would it REALLY be necessary to trade KJ for a LFer? Couldn’t we use the remaining money and some more trading chips to get a replacement SS and some middle relief? $40M-$45M just seems like a lot, and it doesn’t seem like we are even speculating about players that would consume all of that. Thoughts?
By Efrim
November 19, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this
Tennesee Paul
Re: your 9:10, yes, the Braves have to get to work. Hopefully this Peavy deal gets done before Turkey day.
By used cars
November 19, 2008 9:59 PM | Link to this
If we can’t work out the Peavy deal who do you think are some other likely trade prospects..Does Escobar bring us a potential top-level starter like Liriano, Cain or Grienke…Who fits the bill for the other starter….Has anyone heard whether Big Unit or Oliver Perez are on the radar..or maybe a cheapened Bedard..We’re going to need a lefty in the rotation
By Brad
November 19, 2008 9:59 PM | Link to this
D.O.B.
I had to miss my Vanderbilt Commodores football game against Kentucky this past weekend (not so coincidentally the game that Vandy became bowl eligible for the first time since 1982)… I had a friend record it for me though…
Despite the fact that I was out at bars/restaurants with televisions playing sportscenter all night, despite the fact I have a Blackberry with ESPN text alerts from throughout the game, email on that same phone from friends who had already watched the game, and despite the fact I spent 3+ hours attending the Falcons game with 2 of those friends who did watch the Vanderbilt game the night before, I made it until 5pm the next day (game was over at about 11:30pm Saturday night) without knowing a single thing about the Vandy game… I started watching it and it was just as intense (if not more so) than actually watching it live.
I never thought I’d make it, and none of my friends did either, but thankfully I have good friends that, even though many of those I was around the whole time did know the result of the game, I never found out…
So - watching a recorded game can be done, but let me tell you what - it requires an insane amount of dedication…
By B-RITT
November 19, 2008 10:00 PM | Link to this
TennesseePaul Other than DOB, u hav to be my favorite provider to this forum, all of your posts are reasonable, well thought out, and aren’t spoken out of a blind rage. I like the fact that you arent crazy like richbrave or that weird guy that kept talking about economics. Just thought Id let you know that when I see your name, I stop and read every time.
By Yars
November 19, 2008 10:02 PM | Link to this
DOB…….you think if the Peavy trade still happens & Yunel is included, there’s a possible chance KJ could still be traded in some other deal? I can’t see us opening ‘09 season without Yunel & KJ. I love ‘em both, but I’d much rather us keep KJ over Yunel. Any chance of a team seeing Prado as an everyday 2B? Whatever happens, this sure is turning out to be an interesting off season in MLB so far.
By TennesseePaul
November 19, 2008 10:07 PM | Link to this
Owl: Yes. I was just kidding around with that comment; referencing an earlier dialogue that seemed rather far fetched.
By Ryan S
November 19, 2008 10:12 PM | Link to this
DOB, Anything new with Tazawa? I havent heard anything for a while.
By DAP
November 19, 2008 10:14 PM | Link to this
DOB re your 7:15pm… i wasnt arguing that escobar is a better player. i made sure i said i wasnt arguing the the guy. i mentioned two things escobar does better: get on base, and play defense, both of which i believe are indisputable.
my point of looking at both players’ career stats was just to show the OBP, and that point stands either way. not trying to be sneaky. :-)
when escobar gets the experience reyes has, who knows what his stats will look like? im gonna guess very good.
By Josh P.
November 19, 2008 10:16 PM | Link to this
Wren: “Kevin Towers, who will be the 4th player in the Peavy deal?”
Towers: “Locke…NO!”
Wren: launches catapult
Towers: “Boooyyyeeerrrrr!!!….”
By sam
November 19, 2008 10:20 PM | Link to this
jimd, 2010? Really? I’m sure Liberty Media will be more than happy to spend more money in 2010 when we come in last place and attendance is less than 10,000 a night.
By Bama
November 19, 2008 10:34 PM | Link to this
DOB why does it take so long to pull up your post? It took 8 min one time and 12 the next to blog. On Marks and TM it only takes couple min. for post to come up. When you get over 600 blogs it starts getting slowwwwwwwwwer, over 700 now.
I know you said “Later” but it would help soon.
By richbrave
November 19, 2008 10:35 PM | Link to this
HEY DAVE:
Its your blog. You can do what you want. Would 16 million sound better.? 17 million,18,19. The bidding is going to be fierce. We need to be ahead of the curve on this not behind the eight-ball. Wouldn’t BURNETT and PEAVY be better than just PEAVY. I thought WREN said they wanted TWO top tier hurlers not one AND a center-fielder.
By Bobbymahlon
November 19, 2008 10:40 PM | Link to this
DOB : What is wrong with you answering my blogs to you. This is the third time I have asked you why you thing Shafer would do better than Anderson and I cited what Josh did in his short stay last year. I’ll bet you Shafer will not hit for a higher average than Josh did or steal pro rated more bases or cover more ground in centerfield. Is it you do not have any answers to my findings or are you too busy talking about other things than the Braves.
By BravesSince85'
November 19, 2008 10:47 PM | Link to this
It was two SPS and a LF sparky!
By Steve from OH
November 19, 2008 10:50 PM | Link to this
DOB, I enjoyed your story on Marek and Medlen. Thanks for all the good info.
By Bubdylan
November 19, 2008 10:53 PM | Link to this
Bobbymahlon I sense that DOB is intimidated by you and afraid of your discussion. I’ve noticed he talks for hours and hours and then when you show up, POOF, he’s gone. Other than yours, he seems to answer EVERYONE who puts “DOB” in their post. That’s the code. (Date of Birth??).
By Tomas
November 19, 2008 10:56 PM | Link to this
Jake Peavy: 5 years left on his contract. Age 27.
Yunel Escobar, Charlie Morton, Blaine Boyer, and Gorkys Hernandez for Jake Peavy, and sign Furcal to a 4 yr deal worth 43 million, Randy Wolf for 2 yrs 15 million, and Raul Ibañez for 3 yrs 40 million.
Roy Halladay: 2 years left in his contract. Age 32.
Yunel Escobar, Charlie Morton, Blaine Boyer, Kris Medlen, and Matt Diaz for Roy Halladay, and John McDonald(he plays tremendous defense). And we can use the rest of the money on a LF, and SP, an amount of approximately 25 million. Sign Oliver Perez to a 3yr deal worth 33 million, and sign Raul Ibañez to a 3yr deal worth 40 million.
At least this team could compete with either one of this two plans.
If the Braves had a lot of money,a payroll of 120 million the perfect plan would be to sign Raul Ibañez, Aj Burnett, Rafael Furcal, and trade for Jake Peavy. But unfortunately that isn’t the case.
By Saltywoody
November 19, 2008 11:05 PM | Link to this
When Pettitte and Wang hit the same rotation my brain almost melted.
Quality.
By Saltywoody
November 19, 2008 11:13 PM | Link to this
It might just be me, but I’ve gotta say that I haven’t been excited by a single name that’s been bandied about other than Peavy.
Oliver Perez? Guys, the Mets really need pitching and even they won’t resign the guy. Burnett? Good, but not great, and that’s only when he’s not injured. And you’ll have to pay him like an ace to pry him away from everyone else. Derek Lowe? Horse or not, the guy’s getting older and is also going to command a very high annual salary. Brad Penny? Ummmm…NO. Randy Wolf? Ugh.
To me, as DOB and a few others point out, getting Peavy is a BIG deal. You don’t trade Hanson, but aside from that? There are really not many other untouchables. You’re just not going to find a guy like Peavy for four/five years at what they’re paying him with the kind of stuff he has.
Plus, if you get Peavy? Then that makes you far less desperate to land other pitchers, means you don’t have to pay through the roof for a free agent just so you have something to show your fans, and also lends a certain cache to your rotation all of a sudden, which might attract other pitchers/players to Atlanta.
I think it was good for Wren to take a stand last week against Towers. And I think it obviously works in the Braves’ favor that Dempster reupped with the Cubs.
But, all that aside, we need this deal.
By Wayne
November 19, 2008 11:15 PM | Link to this
I saw where the Jays are saying Halladay might be available. If so, what do you folks think about making them an offer. (take that, KT)
Bubdylan Always happy to supply material for humor!
:-)
By Salty Dawg
November 19, 2008 11:18 PM | Link to this
What in the world could we possibly talk about other than Peavy? We haven’t even reached 700 comments yet.
Hmmm…Perhaps it’s time for the daily resurrection of the “why don’t we just sign Cain” discussion. I mean, certainly San Fran is interested in trading him.
By Thundersticks
November 19, 2008 11:18 PM | Link to this
I say forget Peavy and just sign CC. Think about it.
We trade for Peavy and pay him $80mil over 5 years (the option would have to be exercised for him to approve the trade), we then have to sign another SS to replace Escobar, AND we give up Reyes/Morton, Hernandez, and Boyer/Locke/whomever. This would cost us roughly $26 mil in 2009, $30 mil in 2010, and $31 mil in 2011 (assuming the replacement SS gets $15 mil per for 3 years). That same money would go to CC and Escobar during the same time-frame.
Now, I realize we would have to go 6 - 7 years on CC’s contract and that is a pretty big risk. There is also the chance that CC does not want to play on the East Coast. However, one thing we would offer CC is the ability to hit when he starts.
Am I crazy or would this at least be worth exploring? I’m just saying…
By THE BEAR
November 19, 2008 11:19 PM | Link to this
David, before we moved up to Stuart, FL we lived in Plantation and we were regulars at Tom Jenkins’ place before he got his new spot. Back then we had to pick it up and take it home. Sure was good barbecue and when he got his new place there was room to eat. He still did a huge take out business.
Incidentally The Old Hickory House there in Atlanta serves some mighty good Brunswick stew. And their barbecue isn’t bad either.
And don’t forget Sprayberry’s down in Newnan, GA. Some good eating there also.
Question: Do you know if there is any thought of trying to get Tyler Flowers to play a corner outfield? If they could pull that off they could have his bat in the lineup and he could also catch Hanson every fifth day. Hanson has said a number of times that he likes to pitch to Flowers behind the plate. Sure would beat Sammons back there. I know Flowers is a year of two away from the big team but a year of learning the outfield in Gwinnett could pay huge dividends in the future.
By Johnny B
November 19, 2008 11:19 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan…LMAO!!!
By Saltywoody
November 19, 2008 11:22 PM | Link to this
You know, I was kind of dismissing all the Raul Ibanez talk. Guy never made any kind of impression on me offensively and his defense is mediocre at best.
But when you look at his stats? The guy kind of rakes. Close to .300 every year, 20+ homers every years, around 100 RBIs every year, ALWAYS .350 OBP or better.
Frankly, we could use consistency like that. He’s not necessarily suited to be an outstanding cleanup guy, but you put that consistency between Chipper and Mac, and maybe you’ve got something there…
By Bama
November 19, 2008 11:25 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan Man u won’t do!
Richbrave Two SP and LF. is right. Would love to see Burnett & Peavy signed plus trade for Alex Rio.
Bobbymahlon Agree Josh Anderson given the chance can hit around 300 and have 35 to 45 SB. play great D and he’s smart good guy. I think Bobby gave him a bad deal this year, rather have him than Blanco.
By Wayne
November 19, 2008 11:26 PM | Link to this
Saltywoody Definitely agreed on Peavy being really the only decent name being bandied about. Although if Halladay in Toronto is truly available, though not as young or signed for as long as Peavy, he is definitely a top of the rotation starter who could truly anchor a staff.
If we could get a guy like those guys (Peavy, Hallady, Oswalt or other similar arms), then we could actually take a flier on someone who is a bit more of a risk, such as Penny, Sheets, or Randy Johnson to fill out the rotation.
Granted, we could get hit by lightning twice, and lose a lot of arms, but what are the chances of that happening two years running.
Peavy (or one of the limited others) is key for sure!
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 11:32 PM | Link to this
Saltywoody, Ibanez has certainly been a more consistent power hitter than Ludwick, though without the huge season Ludwick had in 2008 (which is, of course, the type of season the Braves would be hoping to get out of Ludwick if they trade for him. They have questions about whether he could do it again, like anyone would have those questions. Just a matter of, how badly do you need a power hitter and how much are you willing to gamble on any of these guys, these two or several other possibilities, since most of them have their flaws or question marks, be it age, inconsistency, defensive deficiences, etc)
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 11:33 PM | Link to this
Bama, Josh Anderson could sure have helped his case by going to play winter ball.
By Wayne
November 19, 2008 11:33 PM | Link to this
Thundersticks Though I think the Braves are not going to do so, I see the logic in making a play for CC. What if we offered him $90 million for 3 years, or 120 mil for 4 years. Blew him away with a shorter term offer. If he bites, we have our ace until Hanson is well into the role, and we save our SS and other prospects for another trade.
Like I said, it won’t happen, but I can see some logic there.
By Saltywoody
November 19, 2008 11:35 PM | Link to this
Granted, we could get hit by lightning twice, and lose a lot of arms, but what are the chances of that happening two years running.
You shouldn’t have said that.
By Wayne
November 19, 2008 11:39 PM | Link to this
Update from the intermountain west: Jazz win two in a row at home, after their M.A.S.H. unit barely survives a 1-4 east coast road trip.
Big Game is 11/22/08, at 6pm EST. Watch out BCS.
By David O'Brien
November 19, 2008 11:40 PM | Link to this
Bravesfaninmetsland: Great question about Vic Mackey. I honestly didn’t know. Man, was that the most tense moment in recent TV history, or what. God, I absolutely love that show, and it’s hit a new peak down the stretch. I know it won’t happen, but it’d be cool if Forrest Whitaker’s character came back for the finale….
RichBrave, you asked if $16 mill or $17 mill would sound better for A.J. than $25 mill per year? Uh, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say yes, it would sound better.
By Bama
November 19, 2008 11:43 PM | Link to this
737 COMMENTS
By Wayne
November 19, 2008 11:47 PM | Link to this
Sorry I missed the BBQ discussion last night. I have loved some awesome “Q” over the years, of many varieties. Loved them all.
Even mediocre “Q” beats almost anything else, except for maybe some real good Mexican chow!
Personally, I like to combine my mustard and tomato based sauces.
Though “Mrs. Wayne” will do the obligatory turkey next week, I am very tempted to add a nice slow cooked brisket to go with it.
“Hey, Mrs. Wayne, what’s in the fridge tonight?”
By Wayne
November 19, 2008 11:50 PM | Link to this
11/23/2008: “Jack is back”
By JimD
November 20, 2008 12:01 AM | Link to this
Sam
All I am saying is that Hanson does not have to pitch in the bigs at all in 2009 to justify not being traded for Peavy.
Now, personally, I believe he will pitch in 09, possibly from the start of the season, and if not then, probably by the time the season is over. BUT by 2010 he will probably be our #3 maybe even our #2. AND when Peavy’s contract is up and he is gone (if we get him at all) it is very likely that Hanson will be our #1.
You do not trade away your future #1 pitching ace.
And if none of that works out, he can always sing “Mmm Bop” during the 7th inning stretch.
(sorry, couldn’t resist)
By uga-brave
November 20, 2008 12:01 AM | Link to this
lou vales must of stayed in holiday inn express last night.
press release:
the braves in a challenging economy have promised to freeze or lower concession prices in theses challenging times.
beer prices will stay the same, according to terry mcquirk.
acccording to terry, the braves will provide a selection of natural night, millwaukees best and PBR. we feel the fans pain. we will keep the prices the same as last season.
we have elimiated budweiser, bud light, bud select, and coors light.
as an organization, we too must make sacrafices. we feel this new selection of adult beverages with no increased prices to our fan base shows our commitment to our fan base.
we also will be serving fried bolonga hogies in aisle 120, 114, 110, 105, 109, and 119.
spam sandwhiches will be served in the outfield concourses.
by the way i have given up my mini-fridge and it has beed replaced by a red igglo cooler.
By uga-brave
November 20, 2008 12:06 AM | Link to this
post script:
in order to park your car it will only cost 100 shares of GM.
By N8
November 20, 2008 12:09 AM | Link to this
DOB
“RichBrave, you asked if $16 mill or $17 mill would sound better for A.J. than $25 mill per year? Uh, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say yes, it would sound better.”
I’ll take you one step further. It would be FANTASTIC if that 16 or 17 million dollars was on the Phillies or Mets taking up 16+ percent of their payrolls.
By Saltywoody
November 20, 2008 12:11 AM | Link to this
I don’t know how the heck 10Paul makes those amazing charts on the blog, ‘cuz I’d seriously like to make one comparing Ludwick and Ibanez right now.
Ibanez is nice because he is so consistent and he could fill in at 1st, too. But, then again, Tex was considered consistent…and that doesn’t necessarily translate to getting clutch hits and helping your team out. Still, Ibanez has actually been getting better as he gets older. And his last four years, he’s hit .280 20 89, .289 33 123, .291 21 105, .293 23 110, all four seasons with .350 OBP or higher. That’s a pretty good track record, even at 36.
Ludwick is only 30, so you could argue that he’s in his prime right now. But last year screams flash-in-the-pan to me. He’d never played more than 40 games at the major league level until 07. And that year, he hit .267 12 52 with a .339 OBP. Last year, obviously, was significantly better. But, how do you make that substantial jump at 29?
That really is a tough call. Maybe Ibanez is better because you don’t give up anything to get him. Maybe Ludwick is cheaper.
If it’s my call and all things are equal? My choice is Ibanez because you don’t have to give up KJ.
Then again, it seems like everyone’s interested in Ibanez.
By In Saban We Trust
November 20, 2008 12:12 AM | Link to this
DOB,
You have mentioned several shortstops to replace Yunel, should he be traded. What about Clint Barmes? Would he even be available?
By Roman Gal
November 20, 2008 12:15 AM | Link to this
Bobbymahlon
Anderson’s minor league numbers this year weren’t as good as Schafer’s and they weren’t any better in Atlanta. He had an OBP of .358, a .405 SLG, and a .763 OPS.
Schafer struggled mightly after his return from suspension. But he did very well in his first big-league spring training. He had a .378 OBP, a .471 SLG, and an .850 OPS. Plus his defense is supposedly better than Anderson and Schafer has a plus, plus arm. He used to be a pitcher.
The only thing Anderson really has on Schafer is his speed…not that he is any slouch.
By BT
November 20, 2008 12:23 AM | Link to this
What kind of lame excuse to Josh Anderson and Lillibridge use in declining the offer to play winter ball? Do they think they a polished vets that don’t any more direction? Astonished by this lack of maturity.
By uga-brave
November 20, 2008 12:24 AM | Link to this
on a serious note i dont know if anyone else heard the interview this morning on 790 the zone with jeff francoeur.
hard not to pull for him as a PERSON.
he is a fan of the game and he knows he struggled last year. he said all the right things. he is what you would want out of a home town kinda of star.
however, he blames his struggles on his weight. i hope i am wrong but losing 16 pounds aint gonna cure all those ills.
either way he is only 24 and i guess there is a learning curve there.
if he fails it definetely will not be for a lack of effort. the guy loves to play and is somewhat of a role model.
for the braves to be competitive he is a huge part of the equation.
he knows it is fish or cut bait time. lets see how he responds.
By scottbravesfan
November 20, 2008 12:25 AM | Link to this
They need to get Peavy and Lowe. Time to spend some money Atlanta you have been making tons of profit every year for about five years now. The fans keep coming out with attendance over 2.5 million every year and the team is just not holding up it’s end of the bargain.
Dave,
If the Braves do deal Escobar do you think they will try and bring back Renteria or Furcal?
And Son’s of Anarchy is Awesome!
By Roman Gal
November 20, 2008 12:30 AM | Link to this
I don’t understand the love affair here with Josh Anderson. Sure, the guy seems nice enough, is well-spoken, and is freakishly fast, but why do people think he is God’s gift to baseball?
Enlighten me.
By TennesseePaul
November 20, 2008 12:37 AM | Link to this
Ludwick looks like a flop waiting to happen. I don’t have the biggest crush on KJ as others on this blog, but I firmly believe that trading KJ for Ludwick is a steal, for St. Louis.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 20, 2008 12:45 AM | Link to this
Roman Gal, you are correct. Josh Anderson ain’t no slouch on the base paths. In fact, he just might the second coming of Otis Nixon.
I have written about this before, so enjoy. The one thing that Josh Anderson did do right this past season is steal bases and he did it at an astonishing pace. The young speedster stole an impossible 52 bases out of 60 (.866 success rate) attempts between playing in Richmond and Atlanta in 2008. His career 80 percent success rate in stolen bases during six minor league seasons speaks volumes.
Basically, Josh Anderson can flat out burn rubber on the bases. The one glaring weakness in his game is the fact that he doesn’t draw enough walks, which is critical to the success of any lead off hitter. He just needs to understand that in his case, a walk is as good as a double.
About Jose Reyes. Um, how can I put this gently. He is the best lead off hitter since Rickey Henderson, bar none. The scary thing is, Reyes hasn’t reached his full potential as of yet.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 20, 2008 12:49 AM | Link to this
10Paul, Ludwick is for real. Trust me, I know these things. All it took for Ludwick to realize his full potential is the combination of three things. Good health, the right opportunity (team) and the chance to play the whole season.
By Reality
November 20, 2008 12:54 AM | Link to this
Braves to Padres: One More Day and That’s It
By David O’Brien
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Friday April 4, 2009
The Braves have told the Padres that if no trade is completed by the end of tomorrow, they’ll be moving on from the Peavy talks until mid-July.
“The season starts on Sunday, so we don’t have any choice” said Braves’ General Manager Frank Wren.
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 12:54 AM | Link to this
scottbravesfan, as I said quite a few times, yes, Furcal and Renteria are among the SS options the Braves have discussed if they trade Escobar.
By uga-brave
November 20, 2008 1:07 AM | Link to this
i like josh anderson. the dude does a lot of things well.
he is a plus outfielder. runs like a kentucky moonshiner but he hits left handers worse then rick camp.
there lies the problem. he may or may not be a everyday player.
but as a fourth or fifth outfielder coming off the bench with speed, he has value.
By Hiawatha Terrell Wade
November 20, 2008 1:30 AM | Link to this
Man, I know we are all getting antsy waiting for Peavy or Burnett or whoever our first domino is gonna be, but Dave, you’ve gotta be going out of your mind.
This blog has taken off to the degree where you are all of a sudden expected to produce every three days or so. Heck, the number of comments crash the site when you don’t. But with nothing going on but Hanson and Flowers…
You’ve had to dig deep into your bag of tricks this past 10 days or so. Same comments from commenters, one trade proposal bleeding into the next. Boyer, Locke, Gorkys, Schaefer, Fee, Fi, Fo, Fum.
Worst of all the long wait has your loyal denizens getting a little batty…assuming Greinke can be had for Francoeur?…Burnett is somehow safer than Peavy?…Flowers is not blocked?…Peavy for Prado?…Peavy is Teixeira?…Sign Ken Griffey?…wtf?????
Braves fans are treating this offseason like virgins. Don’t chomp at the bit. Take a deep breath, let the magic happen, then reflect. That’s the way to go.
Dave, I usually envy your job. What a great gig…you get to cover professional baseball and write for a living, which sure beats the mines. But I’ve gotta say, these past ten days or so, as Towers/Wren/Baseball Gods hold us hostage…I feel for you man.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 20, 2008 1:39 AM | Link to this
O’Brien, like I have said before, I would not want to be Frank Wren right about now.
First, there is the KJ for Ludwick rumor. Which I would do, in a heartbeat. but, if KJ is traded, the Braves probably won’t trade Escobar, which puts a serious crimp in the Peavy plans.
Second, the Cardinals are among several teams rumored to be chasing 2B Orlando Hudson. I don’t whether or not the Braves would be willing to spend some their reported 40 to 50 million on a gold glove caliber switch hitting 2B in Orlando Hudson. But it ain’t a bad idea.
Third, if the Braves signed Hudson, they could trade KJ for Ankiel or Ludwick and kill two birds with one stone while significantly improving the team as a defensive unit.
Fourth, I’m almost certain that Cox is pushing Wren to trade Escobar. Bobby doesn’t like having hot dogs on his roster no matter how talented they are. If Hudson is on board, would the Braves spend for another SS if Escobar is traded?
Fifth, the Braves have so many holes to fill, they make Pamela Anderson look a saint. Too many questions, not enough answers. It’s gonna be a long off season and even longer 2009 for our Braves.
By Mike S
November 20, 2008 1:40 AM | Link to this
Hiawatha Terrell Wade,
Hilarious. And very true.
By nolie
November 20, 2008 1:54 AM | Link to this
I don’t know how the heck 10Paul makes those amazing charts on the blog, ‘cuz I’d seriously like to make one comparing Ludwick and Ibanez right nowSaltywoody
I’ve seen several hints to Pauk about making those charts. So far he ain’t talking. I think The Tenn Man doesn’t have a heart.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 20, 2008 2:16 AM | Link to this
Nolie you can simply copy and paste and edit the stats!
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 20, 2008 2:42 AM | Link to this
It’s November 20th, does anybody know what the Braves and every other MLB team are required to do today?
It’s something to do with rosters and the rule V draft.
By Bobby's Cox
November 20, 2008 2:58 AM | Link to this
Coach,
Josh Anderson needs to be on the big league club as a 4th outfielder/bench player to come in late in games to pinch run/steal/as a defensive replacement.
I was high on him last year, but he didn’t show me he could do more than that. His SB% is incredible though, and would be an asset if this team ever gets back to October baseball.
By nolie
November 20, 2008 3:45 AM | Link to this
Josh Anderson needs to be on the big league club as a 4th outfielder/bench player to come in late in games to pinch run/steal/as a defensive replacement.BobbysC
pretty much what several of us thought last winter. a decent #4 OFer . not enough OBP or pop to start regularly on a good team
Owl I was just using it as an excuse for the pun. Tenn Man(Tin Man) heart thingy. Wasn’t me that had asked previously.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 20, 2008 4:06 AM | Link to this
I was just day dreaming this early morning and was picturing our 200NINE opener!
Here we are ESPN is ready to roll out the season opener!!
Peavy against Hamels
But first our very own Brave Ohman will do the “Harry Caray” starting lineup.
Our new power outfielder goes back to back with big Mac!!
Frenchy shows off his new and improved stroke!
Mike Gonzalez rocks his way for the first save!
am I getting warmer?
By Random
November 20, 2008 5:13 AM | Link to this
DOB—
Good answer here at 7:15 PM on Reyes v Escobar, as well as your previous comments.
Also, thanks for all the on-the-spot updates/insights/analyses of the Peavy trade talks.
PS: Atlanta hosts NCAA Final Four in 2013!!! Woo-hoo!
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 20, 2008 5:23 AM | Link to this
I agree on Anderson. He doesn’t need to hit a bunch of HR’s, it’s the OBP that counts when it comes to leading off. The 40 man rosters get filled up today. Some teams have already completed theirs.
Did ya’ll know the Nationals have the first and tenth pick in the first round of the 2009 draft.
And the Jake Peavy soap opera continues unabated….
By Random
November 20, 2008 5:28 AM | Link to this
nolie:
I think The Tenn Man doesn’t have a heart.
I was just using it as an excuse for the pun. Tenn Man(Tin Man) heart thingy.
DOB, please ban this chick commenter for all the obvious reasons — an annoyingly abstruse sense of humor, and not funny, either!
JK, of course.
But seriously, the (tin) man must know something we don’t, seein as how his stats matrices are in a totally different font (looks like courier, which implies some kind of plain text conversion thingy). AND THEY EXCEED THE RIGHT MARGIN!!!
I, too, would like to know how TennesseePaul does it.
How DO you do it, fellow statesman?
By Some Blogs Have Random
November 20, 2008 5:35 AM | Link to this
Hey, Coach!! Said anything funny or insightful lately?
“The best dentists are missing a couple of fingers” — good stuff!
Like the “pizza bones” comparison that DOB seconded.
Whatcha doin up so late? (Early?)
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 20, 2008 5:54 AM | Link to this
So far, the longer this Peavy thing plays out; the worse Towers looks. He says the Cubs are still in it when Cub sources say they aren’t. He says the Yanks are players, but then admits he hasn’t talked to Cashman basically since the GM meetings. He hasn’t talked to the Dodgers….or Angels…or Astros….or Cardinals…or anyone else.
When you look at the reported package being offered by the Cubs, compare it to the Braves, and realize that no one else has made an legit offer (well, according to Towers, the best offers have come from American League teams…yet no one knows of one…), you have to admit it makes sense that someone is pulling strings behind the scenes as the rest of it just doesn’t add up.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 20, 2008 6:13 AM | Link to this
It is also interesting that the Braves have not been linked to another rumor…
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 20, 2008 6:23 AM | Link to this
that is since the GM meetings…point being the Braves are being the Braves in their other pursuits and not having them play out in the media…
By sam
November 20, 2008 7:22 AM | Link to this
jimd, Hanson is a prospect and Peavy is a proven #1 starting pitcher. When did the Braves change the rules that they don’t trade away prospects?
By JimD
November 20, 2008 8:12 AM | Link to this
Sam,
They do trade prospects, of course. The reported deal for Peavy had at least 2, possibly 3, if those reports are true.
But Hanson is seen as a long term anchor in the pitching rotation, just like Jair Jurgens. Frank Wren has declared him, as well as a handful of others, as “untouchable.”
By TN Johnson
November 20, 2008 8:26 AM | Link to this
DOB, with the recent revelations that Roy Halladay may be on the trading block, do you see the Braves making any sort of push? I think he would be under contract for two more years… He’s definitely an ace
By Nocturnal Owl
November 20, 2008 8:26 AM | Link to this
Cards sign Trever Miller. Funny they never offered to Ohman. That offer from Wren might be good enough! Time for some Wrenmagic! Gotta be a way for Towers to hand-it-over.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 20, 2008 8:42 AM | Link to this
TN Johnson I’m not so sure Toronto is ready to dump their ace Halladay since they lost A.J. Burnett with FA.
By THE BEAR
November 20, 2008 8:43 AM | Link to this
(By sam
November 20, 2008 7:22 AM | Link to this
jimd, Hanson is a prospect and Peavy is a proven #1 starting pitcher. When did the Braves change the rules that they don’t trade away prospects?)
The Braves changed this rule when Hanson showed them he could be the next coming and would likely be the guy around which they could build a rotation for the future. Nothing wrong in looking out for the future.
For this same reason I hate the idea of seeing Flowers go. It is not often you get a player with his power. Why let it get away? When you find star quality you should keep it.
By kdbanks
November 20, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this
DOB -
I think you should consider creating a FAQ page for the blog so you can respond to repeat questions with “See FAQ”.
For instance:
Q: If the Braves trade Escobar, who are the possible replacements?
Q: Why don’t you just write about baseball and leave the music/bbq/movie/TV talk to someone else?
Q: What’s the proper spelling of Peavy?
Q: How is Smoltz’s recovery coming?
Q: Do you like motorcycles?
Q: How can I send you a homemade collage of photographs I’ve taken of you walking into and out of the AJC building?
Those are just some examples, but you get the picture. That would save you a lot of negative energy I think. In fact, the rest of us could handle the response to those by saying “Check the FAQ newbie.”
By JimD
November 20, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this
Bear
I agree about Flowers - a TON of upside and the potential for some huge power numbers.
The difference between he and Hanson is that Flowers plays a position where there is already a young all-star, who is signed at a reasonable rate for the long term.
Flowers could be moved to first base, although Braves brass has consistently said they will not do that. There could be a couple of reasons for that: (a) they are publicly stating that to keep his trade value high, since good hitting catchers are rare and therefore valuable and good hitting 1B are more common and therefore less valuable, or (b) his defense at 1B is such a liability that they fear he would cost more runs than he produces.
My guess is that (a) is the answer. Keep him behind the plate and he is ready should an emergency need arise or he is currency to fill a pressing need.
By dadgum
November 20, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this
Seems like the Peavy saga is about to be over according to Buster Olney. He opines that Wren is about to lose his leverage as it is becoming apparent that the Braves will not be players for the top free agent pitchers. Wren knows it and should be pulling the trigger soon, like right now. Towers figures to be able to wait it out more so than Wren. He can move Peavy (primarily his contract) in a trade later to a club that may sweeten it’s deal where Wren’s best option is to get Peavy with a contract less than what he would pay on the open market for the likes of a Burnett.
Peavy looks like a sure play for the Braves. Also if the Braves get Peavy their next priority will be to replace Esco. If they aren’t players for the top free agent pitchers then it stands to reason that they will throw good money at Furcal and rightly so. In addition, I feel the braves have Hanson penciled in as perhaps a #3 starter.
Peavy at #1, Jurrjens #2, Hanson #3, Campillo #4(or acquisition), Hampton/Glavine#5. Of course they want to get another top tier pitcher with experience but can’t see Lowe or Burnett falling to the Braves but perhaps they can get a #4/5 type starter because we all know that depending on Hampton or Glavine to last any length of time is well, not good at best. Good chance neither is on the roster.
Getting Peavy AND signing Furcal will take care of a lot of issues and provide the Braves with the leadoff guy they so desperately need. Wren needs to pull the trigger on this deal NOW while the free agents are still in play and he has some leverage left.
Rock on……I’m taking Eastern NC que over Lexington hands down. I have eaten both for a long time. Thanks DOB your BBQ response in teh blog mentioned Smokestack BBQ. I assume there is only one location. Seems that was outside KC on the state line. It’s all great.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this
Steve from OH—
That’s OK. I just “pulled a Satchel”—I laughed at something I didn’t understand. (“Satchel” being the dog from Get Fuzzy.)
Bubdylan Err… ne’ermind. :)
Yeah…I had a feeling.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this
N Owl But first our very own Brave Ohman will do the “Harry Caray” starting lineup.
Yeah! And this time, if he reads Mac’s weight, he cann “buy it”! ; )
Our new power outfielder goes back to back with big Mac!!
Sounds like a plan! Who bats first? Are they both solo homers?
: )
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this
Reality—
Funny stuff!
By GermanBravesFan
November 20, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this
Dadgum… Wren would have pulled the trigger by now. However, it takes two to make a deal and Towers did not agree to what the Braves had offered! Geez…
On another note: IF the Braves land Peavy and (lose Escobar in the process) and then add Furcal at $13 mill. per year, that will use up most of what the Braves have to spend this off-season. How can they then add another pitcher AND a quality (emphasis is on “quality”) outfielder???
By Steve from OH
November 20, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this
The one glaring weakness in his game is the fact that he doesn’t draw enough walks, which is critical to the success of any lead off hitter.
Which is why, in all likelihood, he won’t be the CF of the future for the Braves. If you could just tell a guy “hey man, draw more walks and increase your OBP” and the dude was like “gee, I never thought of it that way. I’ll get right on it,” then everybody would be a good OBP guy. Many are not. Josh Anderson, throughout his lengthy Minor league career, was never a good OBP guy. Period. Jordan Schafer is. Jordan Schafer also has more power. And for as much as you like scouting reports, I’m surprised you’re not all over the stuff the scouts saying about him being a +(+) defender with one of the strongest throwing arms you’ve ever seen. But I guess that since you post the same crap about Anderson every other night, I guess you haven’t seen it.
Face it dude, about all Anderson can do is run. Schafer can do much more, and the only thing that will keep him out of the starting job next season is if the brass decides he’ll need more development in AAA.
No to KJ for Ludwick. And you “know those things?” How? Are you psychic? Or did your scouting report tell you that?
Here’s a list of Rule V eligibles:
Derrick Arnold J.C. Boscan Phillip Britton Jose Camarena Eric Campbell Greg Creek Quentin Davis Bryan Dumesnil Reid Gorecki Diory Hernandez J.C. Holt Sung Jung Kala Kaaihue Carl Loadenthal Stephen Marek Ernesto Mejia Brad Nelson Jon Mark Owings James Parr Van Pope Todd Redmond Jonathon Rouwenhorst Zach Schreiber Yohan Silva Scott Thorman Wes Timmons Chris Vines Matt Young
Here’s a question: do you protect Thorman and Eric Campbell?
And Rodrigo Lopez got released today, I think.
By Efrim
November 20, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this
Towers said talks with the Braves have not resumed and that he hasn’t heard from the Angels.
I wonder who picks the phone up first?
By Jonathon
November 20, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this
Now, I dislike Jim Edmonds as much as the next Braves fan, but would he make any sense as a 1-year bridge in CF to Schafer? He had 19 bombs in 250 at-bats for the Cubs, he’s only looking for a 1-year deal, probably wouldn’t cost that much, and has an incentive to play hard b/c he’s just 18 homers shy of 400. He can still play solid defense and adds some power to the outfield. If he bombs, then you haven’t lost much, and Atlanta can simply promote Schafer or go back to the Blanco/Anderson platoon.
DOB, am I way off to think this is worth discussing?
By DAP
November 20, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this
saltywoody i dont think ludwick’s sucess this past year is a flash in the pan kind of thing. i think it has more to do with him finally being healthy. if he is healthy, i think he will repeat or at least stray close to his production last year.
ibanez is the man, and would be a good pickup. the good thing is he is a free agent, wouldnt cost players, and wouldnt demand a long contract because hes older. the bad thing is he is lefty (but hits lefties well) and does not play great defense.
abreu is a similar option, would cost more with a longer contract, but still has great skills. he can run, hits for average and has decent power, great on base ability…if were the braves, id give him some attention if the price were right.
By GermanBravesFan
November 20, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this
Jonathon… How about Jim Edmonds in left field?
By rammerjammer
November 20, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this
GermanBravesFan,
The “other” pitcher added to the rotation could be Hanson, especially if Yunel is dealt and Furcal is signed.
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 20, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
Jonathon,
I had brought up Edmonds before…But not in CF. He could only really help in in LF. He was pretty solid for the Cubs last year with over 20HR, but batted in the mid-200s. I He definitely could be a short term plug in LF if the Braves saw a potential LF free agent they would want to go after in the Winter of ‘09.
By Hud20
November 20, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this
DOB Let’s say the Braves pull off the Peavy deal and sign Furcal. Then re-sign Smoltz, Hampton, Ohman. That would seem to take up most of the money we have to spend in the off-season. How could we then add another FA pitcher and fix LF? The Peavy deal is obviously attractive, especially because of his affordable contract, but if we have to go out and spend 8-10 million on a SS to replace Escobar that seems to offset the bargain of Peavy. I undersatnd the Peavy deal probably cannot happen without Escobar or Hanson(which I know won’t happen and am glad about), but I just don’t understand why Escobar is so often mentioned in trades when we will have to go out and spend a significant amount of money to replace him. I understand we have to give up major pieces to get a Peavy, but Peavy and Furcal(if the reports of the Braves targeting him are correct) would take up a major portion of our available money, too much to address all our needs. I know Kelly Johnson doesn’t have as much value as Escobar, but to me he is a MUCH better option to trade because we have capable replacements(Prado) to step in. I wish the Padres would take KJ, Jo-Jo, G Hernandez, Flowers and maybe another marginal prospect.
By GermanBravesFan
November 20, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this
rammerjammer: didn’t Frank Wren say that it was the Braves’ priority to add two proven starters? Hanson might be good, but I would not count him among those two proven starters… He might be a solid 4 or 5 his first major league season.
By Original Jon
November 20, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this
I say we forget about Jake Peavy. I know, I know, there has been way too much talk about him and I agree, it’s getting old. But, I say we just move on without him, because while I would love for him to pitch for the Braves, it doesn’t seem as if he would even want to pitch for us, and if he did approve a trade and we started losing games he was playing in, what if he demands a trade to someone else? Then we are out our prospects and Peavy. I know Peavy himself hasnt said anything about where he would approve a definite trade to, but it seems more and more likely that we wont get him and we will be stuck with 2nd and 3rd Tier pitchers. Looks like Jair will be the ace on opening day.
By GermanBravesFan
November 20, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this
Don’t Trade Francoeur: would Edmonds be able to protect Chipper, though? I think the new LF will need to have some power and to be a constant threat. Edmonds does not strike me as such a player anymore.
Ibanez, on the other hand, could be a better choice. Has anybody read what type of contract he might be asking for? Even though he bats left-handed but if he hits lefties well (as DAP pointed out), he could be an option. Anderson could replace him on defense late in games… Just an idea.
By DAP
November 20, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this
jonathan i cant believe you brought that up.
edmonds would be a platoon guy, thats all. on a team wtih a cleanup hitter, that would be fine. but weve got to get someone he can at least adapt into the cleanup spot. abreu, ibanez, dunn, bradley, ect.
By Cliff
November 20, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
Thorman was already released about 2 weeks ago.
By Mitchie-san
November 20, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
Anyone else see the Braves signing Furcal before trading Yunel? It seems evident that he is good as gone. It would make any questions about the infield obsolete.(except for Furcal’s back issues…) If Wren wants Peavy bad enough, sign Furcal first. This would definatly end Peavy’s defensive concerns. Kind of a D-move to Yunel, but its business, right?
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 20, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this
GermanBravesFan…
Jim Edmonds could most definitely not protect Chipper consistently. Which is why he would be quite affordable for a year. Clearly if we don’t get an Ibanez guy in LF, then McCann will have to continue to play like he has been and Franceour would need to fulfill his potential’s promise.
By Raddad
November 20, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
Jim Edmonds is a left handed the braves need a right handed power bat. Frank Wren has stated that. So Edmonds is probably not a option. Here is an idea how about go after Tex and trade Kotchman for a proven left fielder??? Pay him 20+ million or trade Kotchman for a shortstop if the peavy thing goes through????
By N8
November 20, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this
Hud20
DOB has stated that Wren has stated, IF Smoltz and Glavine are deemed healthy enough to pitch and are signed by the Braves, their salary would be above and beyond the surplus of 40-50 million cash to spend on payroll.
In other words, Wren is gonna fix the problems (or attempt to), and then if Smoltz (and maybe Glavine) are healthy and want to pitch for the Braves, they will just be added after the fact, since it might not be until spring until they know anything solid on their health.
Wren’s not gonna turn away two HOF pitchers with a rich history in Atlanta.
By rammerjammer
November 20, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this
GermanBravesFan,
The market may have changed since Frank first said that.
The top-tier available starters aren’t available to us, and does Frank really want to spend a lot on a middling starter (e.g., Randy Wolf)?
Also, Hanson has exceeded expectations and has leapfrogged all our starters, save Jurrjens.
The fact that Furcal - a multi-million dollar option not previously considered - is now being considered tells me plans are changing.
By Lew
November 20, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this
Bobbymahlon-Dude, you seem somewhat needy to me. Have you perhaps considered a Church Group or maybe a dog? DOB, DOB-Can you recommend a good support group? DOB? I’m so lonely. DOB?
UGABrave-Now I’m certainly not suggesting that Frenchy will ever develop the patience of Job (or Chipper) at the plate, but as to the weight loss situation-Have you ever picked up a bat and tried swinging with extra padding around your arms and chest (what happened with his bulking up)? What it does is to restrict your normal swing and changes your center of balance. In Frenchy’s case, it also slowed his running down.
One thing that many here don’t seem to realize is that if you have a problem, the first thing you must do to change is to identify exactly what causes said problem. Frenchy did. So did Kelly Johnson (lack of aggressiveness). Once you define the problem you can take steps to change the behavior. Both Frenchy and Kelly have done so. I completely believe that both will have comeback seasons that will make most of us happy (there will always be UGABrave types who will never be happy with certain players) with their success.
Only time will tell, but I’m going to go out on a limb and predict they will both have really good productive seasons. They’ve identified their deficiencies and made great strides to remedy the problems-Kelly’s adjustment lead to a phenomenal performance at season’s end. It should continue if his approach remains aggressive. That’s a good bit of the battle right there. Too bad Andruw never figured it out.
Yes, losing the weight will help him regain his swing and likely will take away the tendency o lunge at the ball. Will it make him more selective? Of course not. It should allow him to regain the form which led to a .290 BA and 100RBI, though. I would be happy with those results.
Have those of you espousing Anderson over Shafer ever seen both of them play? Shafer is only half a step slower than Anderson and every bit as good a center fielder (I watched him make some incredible catches during Spring Training). He also has the potential to hit for a higher average and more power. Anderson has proven he’s a fourth outfielder. Give Shafer a chance. You probably won’t be unhappy you did (well, OK, maybe you would. This is the MIB blog after all and nothing will ever make Denizens happy).
By Jonathon
November 20, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this
Don’t Trade / GermanBraves,
I see your point about Edmonds in LF. If Schafer is ready to take over, then I do think Edmonds could help bridge the gap in LF until Heyward is ready in 2010 or 2011. Is that something he would consider, or does only want to play CF? My other minor concern about Edmonds is that he’s a lefty, and the Braves could really use another right-handed power bat to balance out Chipper/McCann/Kotchman. I think Frenchy will bounce back with 20 or so homers, but it’s not a certainty.
By JimD
November 20, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this
The fact that Furcal - a multi-million dollar option not previously considered - is now being considered tells me plans are changing.
Do we know for a fact that he was not being considered all along?
By cphizzle
November 20, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
alright fellows everybody on here has talked about kj and the finish to the season he had, and granite it was a fine way to wrap it up but no one is mentioning the way francouer finished the season with the last home game he smacked 2 doubles and a hustling triple on top of that to drive in the go ahead run so how about showing some confidence and faith in frenchy he wont let us down
By Raddad
November 20, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
Abreu,Dunn,Ibanez are all left handed. The most logical free agent is Milton Bradley. I know I know about his off the field problems.But Frank Wren has shown that he will give a guy a shot until he screws it up such as Scott Spezio???
By Random
November 20, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this
Steve from OH: “Here’s a list of Rule V eligibles: … Here’s a question: do you protect Thorman … ?”
Humph — why bother?
Who in the world would pay $5,000 for Thorman, let alone $50,000?
Sheeeeeeesh!!!
By JC from UT
November 20, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
DOB: If the Giants do sign CC would this make Cain more readily available? And If so does FW offer a similar pacakage to Sabean that he offered Towers? And if Sabean wants some salary relief would FW bring Randy Winn to Atlanta?
By Original Jon
November 20, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this
and granite it was a fine way to wrap it up cphizzle
haha, granite??? I think you meant Granted.
By Jonathon
November 20, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this
I think Edmonds is still an everyday player. He wasn’t platooning in Chicago. Yes, he only his .256 for the Cubs, and he hasn’t played more than 117 games in a season since 2005, but we’re talking about a cheap fallback option in LF or CF.
Rumor has it the Phillies are interested in him replacing Burrell in LF.
By JimD
November 20, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this
But Frank Wren has shown that he will give a guy a shot until he screws it up such as Scott Spezio???
Yes, and how did that work out?
I see no problem with Abreu, Dunn, and Ibanez batting lefty. All three played everyday for the most part and hit against both pitching. They all have their upside and their downside.
Milton Bradley is just more of a gamble.
By ernesto
November 20, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this
from MLBtraderumors.com
“Lowe might take his time before signing a new deal this offseason, with the news that Scott Boras is looking for the same average annual value obtained previously by Barry Zito ($18MM).”
18 mm for Lowe? Yikes!
By Random
November 20, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this
Lew: “In Frenchy’s case, it also slowed his running down.”
Well, then — I’ll have whatever Francoeur’s having.
I could use something to slow my running down — I’ve been running down way too fast these past few years.
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 20, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this
Raddad,
I don’t think the major issue with Milton Bradley is his “off-field problems.” It is more the fact he hasn’t played more than 126 games in like eight years. I like his talent and he would fit perfectly…but is there enough potential there to risk paying him millions to sit on the bench? I just don’t know…
By cphizzle
November 20, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this
lookie here lil johnnie boy if a school session is what i was looking for i would take myself to class…anyways lets not give up on what we got i think we are solid in every position except for lf and possibly cf, lets just acquire us a couple starting pitchers and try and stay healthy i think we will be fine
By Josh H
November 20, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this
Please, no more “plug in Prado for KJ”
They are both average defensively. Prado played out of his head this year offensively. He hit a ton of doubles, and has an outstanding slugging percentage because of it.
Use his minor league numbers. Kelly routinely posted an OPS well over .800 in the minors (even sometimes posting over .900)
Martin Prado never posted over .800 in the minors, but did last year in the majors. He hit a double once in every 12 at bats last year, a triple once every 57 at bats, and a home run once every 114 at bats, and walked once every 10 at bats.
Kelly Johnson, last year in the majors, hit a double once every 14 at bats, a triple once every 91 at bats, and a homer once every 45 at bats, alone with a walk every 10 at bats.
Take the minor league numbers though: Prado, a double every 21 at bats, triple every 87 at bats, a homer every 115 at bats, and a walk every 12 at bats.
Kelly, minor league numbers: A double every 16 ABs, triple every 97 ABs, and a homer every 29.75 ABs, alone with walks every 7 or so ABs.
Prado is a .300 hitter, while Kelly is closer to .280.
The only point I want to make with this is that Kelly’s number are more consistent with what you would expect out of him, and he’s still underachieving based on his minor league stats. Prado played better this year than he ever did in the minors. Can we expect Prado to put up the kind of numbers he did this year, or revert back to his minor league self?
I’d rather not trade Kelly and plug in Prado.
By GermanBravesFan
November 20, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this
Raddad: do you really want to get Texeira back and trade Kotchman? You might as well spend the money for Texeira on, say… Manny Ramirez… He does hit when it matters. Just an idea…
Don’tTradeFrancoeur: I think the Braves will need a LF with power. McCann will need to get is days off since he is a catcher and in regards to Frenchy: there is no guarantee he will bounce back! If he does, I would consider it an added bonus, but right now, I would not count on it.
rammerjammer: I still would consider one of the “second tier” free agent pitchers more proven than Hanson (proven does NOT mean a top pitcher like Peavy, Burnett or Lowe). Give the kid a year to adjust to the majors first! A rotation with Peavy, Proven #2, Jurrjens, Hanson, Campillo/Morton/Glavine/Hampton could work.
By Jonathon
November 20, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this
Randy Winn has no power, so I don’t think he’s what FW is looking for. Yes, he’s right handed, yes he’s good defensively, and he’s probably available. While leaving SF might increase his power output, he’s probably good for 15 HR and 70 RBI. I don’t think that’s enough. Maybe he’s a better option than Edmonds, but Edmonds is a free agent, while Winn would have be acquired via trade.
By cphizzle
November 20, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this
edmonds is the very last thing we need he. he is closer to the nursing home than he is playing for us, besides we dont want or need any former cubbies i swear those guys and fans are some of the most obnoxious(check me on that one jon) people i have every been around
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 20, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this
Steve, let me get this straight. You are comparing Jordan Schafer to Josh Anderson? YES?
OK then.
Andruw Jones and Otis Nixon ? Or say Brent Lillibridge and Yunel Escobar.
YEA. Good job Steve. Keep up the great work. I’m laughing my arse off.
By Josh H
November 20, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this
cphizzle:
Probably because Kelly’s performance was over a much longer period of about 20 games or so.
Francouer was capable last year of having big games. But they were usually interspersed between about 20 really bad ones.
Bottom line: Kelly was still above average offensively for a second basemen, even in a bad year. Francouer was dead last for right-fielders.
By ernesto
November 20, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this
Miton Bradley’s got some game left IMO, dont’ know how much of a liability his glove is.
If Bobby can deal with Sheff he can deal with Bradley.
It’d be nice to have a big righthanded bat.
So what’s up with Diaz, have the Bravos given up on him as a starter and shifting him back to his 4th outfielder role.
By jbutler70
November 20, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
Nothing of baseball interest to post today…but heard some Shield spoilers about the ending..that 4 characters die- and that the ending is immensely satisfying. Mackey makes a snake look righteous but some twisted part of me is rooting for him. Once Lem was killed- he was my man.
The Cuban SEC thing is a couple of years old…but apparently he ruffled some fed feathers- so they may be drudging it up. Just let him buy the Cubbies and make life interesting!!
By Mitchie-san
November 20, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
HMMM….I posted and it didnt show.
By DAP
November 20, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this
raddad i like bradley too, i think th biggest issue with him is not his additude, but his injury problems. he is a full year removed from blowing out his knee after being wrestled down by his manager after going off on an umpire, so he might be just fine, but he DH mostly last year and still got hurt many folks here on the blog are worried about him hurting himself in LF and then were screwed. its hard for me not to consider him, though.
jonathan edmonds wasnt in a straight platoon but he wasnt and inst an everyday player. if you go look at his game log, he had lots of days off, and his share of pinch hitting, or coming in our out in the middle of a game. his stats against righties are wuite good, though, and he would definetly be worth a platoon job. if it comes to that, so be it, but we need an anchor in our lineup, not a platoon.
By rammerjammer
November 20, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this
JimD,
What we do know is that Frank was prepared to spend/trade for two starting pitchers and a slugging outfielder. A shortstop was not part of that.
Escobar is a likely piece of the Peavy puzzle, all are agreed. Up until recently, the published reports indicated a low-cost solution to replacing Escobar.
However, not long after Hanson started destroying AFL bats, Furcal’s name popped up as an Escobar replacement…yet no news that Frank suddenly had more money to get the aforementioned pitchers and outfielder.
I’m just trying to connect the dots. Could be nothing to it, but it’s fun to speculate.
By Raddad
November 20, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this
Baseball is a game where managers go with the so called book. Too many left hand bats in a line up makes a team very vulnerable to a left hand starter such as Santana and relief pitcher who do nothing but get out left handed batters. You have to break up the line up a little. I do not disagree with you with those choices. What it boils down to is not the regular season with a left handed line up it is the post season.
By Saltywoody
November 20, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
And Rodrigo Lopez got released today, I think.
Funny you mention him. I was actually going to ask where he was at. He wasn’t a stud, but he was actually pretty solid for Baltimore for a few years. Too bad he didn’t work out.
So, I’ve got to share. I had a dream last night where, among many other weird things including an ex from five years ago repaying me $30 she apparently owed me, I met Mark Teixeira. He was wearing a Braves jersey. So, I asked him about it. And he goes, “Yeah, man. i never take this thing off. I even wear it under my other jerseys when I play.”
Kid you not.
Moral of the story? Everybody is secretly in love with the Braves.
We should use this as leverage against Towers to get Peavy.
That’s right folks, Wren should put in a call today and leverage my dream about talking to Tex as a closet Braves fan to get Peavy. No less crazy than some of the other stuff thrown around here (see: AJ Burnett, 20+ million)
By Lew
November 20, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
Random-Might I suggest Prozac or Wellbutrin? Have you seen a health professional?
By cphizzle
November 20, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this
very valid point josh but consider the liability that kelly is at 2nd and for and good part of the season he struggled at the plate so if i am trading anybody it is kj plus francouer started off so bad and i believe it got in his head with just to deep of a hole to climb completely out of
By csg
November 20, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this
Don’tTradeFrancoeur: I think the Braves will need a LF with power. McCann will need to get is days off since he is a catcher and in regards to Frenchy: there is no guarantee he will bounce back!
bounce back to what? he’s posted a sub .300OBP twice, he sucks get rid of him.
By Raddad
November 20, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this
German Brave
Manny is to old in baseball years!! WIth Tex you have a clean up hitter for next 5 years or so. Its a dream that would not come true.
By Random
November 20, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this
JimD: “I see no problem with Abreu, Dunn, and Ibanez batting lefty. All three played everyday for the most part and hit against both pitching.”
Right on for Abreu, who in 2008 batted and slugged significantly better against LHPs than RHPs, and as well for Ibanez, who was slightly better against LHPs in 2008.
But no way to Dunn, who fared significantly worse in 2008 against LHPs.
And the Braves do need someone who can kill LHPs.
By Original Jon
November 20, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this
cphizzle Its not that I corrected you on your spelling, but the fact that you used the totally wrong word for what you were saying. I wasnt saying you misspelled granted, I was saying you totally used the completely wrong word. That would be like me saying, “granite you don’t know what ewe are talking about, but steel, you feel like you do.”
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this
Rammerjammer, that’s why I tried to point out all along that the $40 mill figure was just educated guessing by all of us in the media, that the Braves have NEVER stated a figure, and why I’ve said all along that it might actually be closer to $50 mill, if that’s what they decide they need to spend. We just don’t know, and the figure might even be fluid. People spend a lot of time here trying to nail down exactly which players the Braves can afford to acquire, when they (we) don’t even know exactly how much the Braves have to spend….
OK, getting to work on a new blog now. Should be up before long.
By cphizzle
November 20, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this
csg…are you kiddin me, who are you goin to replace him with in a yes very very off year the man drove in 70! who drives in 70 in an off year
By Roman Gal
November 20, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this
I don’t disagree that Anderson is fast, but just like Lew said, Schafer is plenty fast. In the Mexican league he did steal 9 out of 10 bases. If the guy ever learns how to hit lefties, he’ll be a force to be reckoned with.
When you consider how badly he performed when he returned from his suspension, his final numbers were pretty astonishing.
I really, truly believe he is our center-fielder of the future.
By DAP
November 20, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this
raddad Too many left hand bats in a line up makes a team very vulnerable to a left hand starter such as Santana
i know what your trying to say here, i think, but i believe you used a bad example. santana is actually better against right handers. im not an expert, but lefties like santana, who depend on thier changeup, are better against righthanders, who are more likely to be fooled by the changeup. lefties can handle a lefty throwing chageups.
by the way, when youve got a lineup full of guys who hit the same vs. lefties and righties, it really doesnt matter that much. the braves have several lefties already that hit the same or even better against lefties. mccann, johnson, kotchman.
so if the braves get a lefty LF, it wont be terrible, as long as they are someone like abreu or ibanez, who hits lefties well.
you know what would solve alot of this, though? is if frenchy was hitting well enough to bat him 5th or 6th in the lineup all the time. another thing would be if we could find away to bat escobar down in the lineup instead of 1st or 2nd.
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this
JC from UT: If — and that’s a big “if” — the Giants could actually pull off a CC signing, then I don’t see why they’d trade Cain, since they’d obviously be trying to win now, not 2-3 years from now. Cain is cheap and they’d have a powerful rotation.
On the other hand if they could fill other needs, say get a solid shortstop, by trading Cain and still have a powerful rotation topped by CC and Lincecum (wow, just thinking of that in a short series is chilling), then yes, that move would make sense.
Oh, and Winn is not a power bat. Braves are looking for a power bat. Not saying they couldn’t use him, too, but they want to address their priorities first.
By Josh H
November 20, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this
cphizzle:
It’s accepted here that if we trade Escobar, that there is no viable replacement here on the Braves team. I believe that way in regards to Prado and KJ.
Prado isn’t the defensive whiz everyone makes him out to be. He lacks range too. You can probably attribute his smoothness at 2B to the fact that he has played it for 6 years in the minors.
Kelly was still going on year 2. He definitely had some mental lapses.
He did struggle, badly at times last season. It’s statistical fact that Kelly is a bad 2 strike hitter. But I’d definitely like to see Kelly build on his end of season success, in a Braves uniform next year.
By rammerjammer
November 20, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this
GermanBravesFan,
Braves have never been afraid to give a kid a chance, and with the pitching market completely out of hand (Lowe=18 million???) it may be perfect timing for Hanson to step up.
Look what happened to Jurrjens. He went directly from AA to the rotation. He wasn’t proven, but he was ready. Tell me why Hanson couldn’t duplicate that.
I think the Braves are counting on it.
By Random
November 20, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this
Lew: “Might I suggest Prozac or Wellbutrin? Have you seen a health professional?”
Where do you think I’ve been, silly?
(Btw, you’d be amazed at what passes for “good behavior” these days.)
Anyway — I’m out! Er, that is, “I’m back!”
By cphizzle
November 20, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this
o but see jonnie i steeeel got your point come on now we aint flippin college professors here just tryin to fix a baseball team
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this
N8, I’ve not stated that Frank Wren has stated _ OK, that’s confusing — that signing Smoltz and/or Glavine would be money above whatever it is the Braves have to spend. I’ve written no such a thing.
Frank has stated only that either of them, or Hampton, would not be one of the two starters they’re aiming to acquire. They want to get two proven, veteran, innings-eating starters, in addition to whatever they have returning from last year.
And no, to answer someone else’s question, Hanson would not be one of the two. He’ll get a shot, but he won’t count as one of the two the Braves are trying to acquire. Proven, healthy starters.
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this
TN Johnson, if Halladay is actually available, you can bet the Braves are asking what it’ll take to get him. Again, big “if.” Can’t believe all the rumors you hear about offers made and players available. Conversely, there will be some who are available that we don’t know about yet.
By Efrim
November 20, 2008 12:05 PM | Link to this
I think a left fielder with power should be just as high on our list as that second starting pitcher we need to acquire. I hope that is the priority if we acquire Jake Peavy. There are plenty of SS options, yes, some not as good as others, but there are still a lot of options. LF? Not too many options, at least from what Frank Wren said.
By Voice from the past
November 20, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this
Atlanta is going to need a southpaw in the rotation next season, should Andy Pettitte be considered? Pettitte won 14 games last year in 33 starts. He pitched 204 innings, striking out 158 and walking only 55. And the AL East was certainly no walk in the park; then again, neither is the NL East. Given the fact that CC is out of the Braves financial reach, Burnett wants a 5 year deal (and doesn’t warrant one), Dempster is gone and Lowe is a Bora$$ client who won’t sign for a while, should Pettitte be considered? I am neither advocating it nor panning it, just throwing it out there…
By Raddad
November 20, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this
Ok bad example, But during the first five innings of a game you face a starting pitcher 2 or 3 times which is good for any hitter left or right. I am trying to say Its about the 7th 8th 9th innings with specialty pitching. Such as some pitchers in the Nation league east.Phiilies J.C Romero lefty’s hit .102 against him.Mets Scott Schoeneweis left’s hit .178 against him.That means A left handed heavy line up would not be all that successful in crunch time . Those odds are not very good.
By mike p
November 20, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this
how many times a day do i have to check mlb trade rumors and not see PEAVY TRADED TO ATLANTA! this is killing me, slowly.
By rammerjammer
November 20, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this
David,
Whether it’s 40M or 50M available - or more - isn’t it safe to say our pockets aren’t as deep as, say, the New York teams, Boston, the Cubs and Dodgers?
And if those are the likely destinations for the top-tier pitchers, we’re on the outside looking in.
By Lew
November 20, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this
RomanGal-How have you been? Are classes going well?
Random-Glad to see you’ve sought help. I was getting concerned. Calmer now, are we?
Hell-If the Giants signed Sabbathia and added him to the rotation with Lincecum and Cain, I’m not sure they’d even need to field a shortstop, much less a great one.
By Original Jon
November 20, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this
cphizzle o but see jonnie i steeeel got your point come on now we aint flippin college professors here just tryin to fix a baseball team. LOL. ok, you got it, but hey we arent the GM of the Braves either, so we cant be fixin the team.
By tennessejed
November 20, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this
I think it’s time that we all forget about Jake Peavy. According to Krasovik at the San Diego Times, Peavy has stated that if traded he wants to pitch for the Cubbies. That is probably why we are hearing that they are still in the mix. Also, now he is possibly expanding his 5 teams to include all NL West teams except the Rockies. This is making him to appear petulant and spoiled. I am getting the impression that he flat out does not want to be traded to the Braves and that he is one spoiled brat. It’s time to move on. Braves ain’t landing him. 09 is a lost season anyway, seeing how we aren’t going to be able to land Peavy, and the NY Yankees trying to buy up every FA that is currently on the market. Looks like we will have to be satisfied to see a Wolfe, Perez, Garland ect ect. And please don’t bring up Hallady, he probably isn’t going to be moved, and if our package wasn’t good enought to land Peavy, it won’t be good enough to land Hallady, and why would you bother with only two years of him. I hope Peavy and Towers are stuck with one another in 09 and on to another 99 losses. Of course, the Braves won’t be far ahead of them.
By csg
November 20, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this
“By cphizzle
November 20, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this
csg…are you kiddin me, who are you goin to replace him with in a yes very very off year the man drove in 70! who drives in 70 in an off year”
who couldnt drive in 70 runs batting behind Chipper, Mac, Esco, KJ, and Tex?? Who cares who you replace him with, he was the worst offensive RF’r in baseball last year. He had the lowest avg, obp, slg%, and ops of any RF’r with 350 Ab’s. You replace him with anyone and they give you more offensive production last year. Since 1991, the Braves have only twice had a player get 300 AB’s and post a sub .300OBP, yep, both times by Jeff Francoeur. In Atlanta Braves history, do you know who has the worst OBP for a career with at least 1000 ab’s, yep, Jeff Francoeur with a career .312OBP. Folks, he’s that bad. Good arm, good raw power, but thats it. The power doesnt matter when you cant make contact. Pitchers have adjusted to him and he cant make adjustments himself. The slg%’s have dropped every season. He’s a brave and Ill pull for him, but he’s just not that good
By DAP
November 20, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this
raddad i see what youre saying.
By DAP
November 20, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this
raddad i see what youre saying.
By Lew
November 20, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
Past Voice-I’ve never really been an Andy Petite fan (though I’ve no concrete reason for this). However, on closer inspection, he might just be a worthwhile addition to the Braves. I would imagine that it would depend on the length of the contract he sought and the total $$$$ amount he asked for. He’s posted between 33-36 starts and a 2-1 K to BB ratio for the past four years. However, the last salary figure I saw was $16 mil. Wonder what he’d ask for. I imagine he might go for a 3 year deal, which would be good, considering the pitching we have on our own horizon.
By Lew
November 20, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this
Tennesseejed-If Peavy didn’t want to pitch for the Braves, all he had to do was to NOT include them on his short list.
By rammerjammer
November 20, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this
David,
Well, you’re very definitive that Frank intends to get “two proven, veteran, innings-eating starters..”
Either Liberty is WAY deeper in available cash than I thought, or we’re about to feign excitement over Jon Garland.
If the former, hooray! If the latter, well…oh, well.
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this
Rammerjammer, yes, that’s safe to say, in regards to CC and perhaps to Lowe and Burnett, too, if they’re taking the highest offer.
By mbatl
November 20, 2008 12:42 PM | Link to this
Peavy has stated that if traded he wants to pitch for the Cubbies. That is probably why we are hearing that they are still in the mix. Also, now he is possibly expanding his 5 teams to include all NL West teams except the Rockies.
*tennessejed * , aren’t those two statements… that he wants to pitch for the Cubs, and that he’s expanded his list, contradictory? If he only wants to pitch for the Cubs, why expand the list?
Here is where I think this thing stands: Frank Wren spent 5 weeks or so negotiating with Towers on a Peavy package, and Towers was close to accepting it; then, at the 11th hour, he wanted to “tweak” the deal (probably wanted to add Flowers, or maybe upgrade the 2nd pitcher).
After all those hours and weeks of negotiating, Wren had probably made his best offer; he wanted to get this done before the open F/A period. It’s probably still on the table, or at least could be revisited, unless the Braves fill their needs elsewhere. Towers is desperately trying to find a better deal, but there is no indication that it’s happening.
So, the ball is in Towers’ court. Wren has nothing more to offer, so we’ll see if SD wants to take our deal, or if they can do better elsewhere.
That’s my take on it.
By Original Jon
November 20, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this
Lew as it has been noted a million times, just because Peavy put the Braves on the list doesnt necessarily mean he would approve a trade to us. I mean, i could say i would like to work for Chevy and Ford, but i would only work for Ford if Chevy was totally out of the picture and didnt need me.
By Lew
November 20, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this
csg-As has been pointed out many times in the past, had National League pitchers just adjusted to and figured out Frenchy’s weaknesses 2 1/2 years after the fact, then they are dumber than a bag of balls. Everyone I ever heard from-from announcers to fans to sportswriters, had that figured out after a week. What took you so long?
By N8
November 20, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this
DOB
My bad. I thought you had written at some point (very soon after the season ended), that that was the case.
Sorry. Not sure where I saw it. Possibly from Bowman on the Braves official site?
Anyhow. Sorry again.
That being said. I can’t imagine that if Wren finds his two pitchers, and Smoltz is deemed healthy and has desire to pitch, I can’t imagine a scenario where Wren either lets him walk to another team, or is forced to trade somebody to make room for Smoltz.
My guess is that the situation might be slightly different for Glavine.
Again. Sorry for mis-quoting you (or paraphrasing), I know how much that annoys you.
By cphizzle
November 20, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this
oh og jon if only we were the GM we wouldnt be havin this conversation cause all would be well in the land of the bravos despite CSG’s remarks and unwillingness to give guys with so much potential and promise another chance one and done is so harsh
By Random
November 20, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this
DAP: “by the way, when youve got a lineup full of guys who hit the same vs. lefties and righties, it really doesnt matter that much. the braves have several lefties already that hit the same or even better against lefties. mccann, johnson, kotchman.”
Well, you’re right as far as you go about these three players.
However, as a team, the 2008 Braves slugged 40 points higher against RHPs than against LHPs, and the 2008 team OPS against RHPs was .771, but only .715 against LHPs.
The Braves really do need to add someone who will kill LHPs.
“so if the braves get a lefty LF, it wont be terrible, as long as they are someone like abreu or ibanez, who hits lefties well.”
Agreed.
By Nocturnal Owl
November 20, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this
I don’t agree with your post Original Jon
By Lew
November 20, 2008 12:57 PM | Link to this
OriginalJon-And the fact that he DID include the Braves on his short list also indicates he WOULD accept a trade here. Works both ways to my way of thinking.
I’d rather be illustrating book covers myself, but if the Publishers don’t have any titles available (read that Cubs), then I guess I would mind painting portraits. Stands to reason.
I don’t know about you, but I have yet to see Peavy, himself on a Nationally televised show stating that he didn’t want to come to ATlanta. It’s all been rumors reported by people who likely heard from someone, who heard from someone who heard from a friend on the golf course. Whatever. I’ll believe it when a. Towers approves Atlanta’s offering and b. Asks for Peavy’s approval. Until then it’s all nothing but conjecture, rumor, doom and gloom or wishful thinking on the parts of those who are disaffected by the whole situation.
By tennessejed
November 20, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this
Yes,
Peavy did put the Braves on his list. But since he has a choice of his destination, it is clear that he wants to pitch for a contender and may not think the Braves are. That is why he is probably telling people that he wants to pitch for the Cubs, and that is probably why they are trying to expand teams. To drive up the price. I mean even the DBacks are more promising that the Braves are right now. And you could argue that the Giants are as well, especially if they add Peavy to pitch along with Cain and Lincecum.
By Roman Gal
November 20, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this
Lew Classes have been pretty crazy for the past week. All my professors decided it would be a good thing to make everything due this week. But the bright side is that after Thanksgiving I don’t have anything to do until finals.
How about you?
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 20, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this
besides we dont want or need any former cubbies i swear those guys and fans are some of the most obnoxious(check me on that one jon) people i have every been around -cphizzle
I’m not sure truer words have ever been written…
By Nate
November 20, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this
So if the giants are able to sign or trade for another pitcher what do they do with Barry Zito. I know that a lot of you guys will laugh at the idea, but if the Giants are willing to pick up most of his salary then he might not be a bad pick up. The Giants have to be looking at his contract as a sunk cost right now. He’s healthy, eats innings, and could obviously use a change of scenery.
Zito’s obviously not a top of the rotation pitcher at this point, but it looks like the Brave’s options are pretty slim.
By DAP
November 20, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this
random good point, thank you. they need to do better against lefties.
By Shaun
November 20, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this
csg-As has been pointed out many times in the past, had National League pitchers just adjusted to and figured out Frenchy’s weaknesses 2 1/2 years after the fact, then they are dumber than a bag of balls. Everyone I ever heard from-from announcers to fans to sportswriters, had that figured out after a week. What took you so long?
Lew, you are exactly right. Pitchers have been taking advantage of Francoeur’s weaknesses since he came up. Again, some haven’t noticed because of his RBI totals and his batting averages.
But if you look closely, his K rate actually dropped in 2008 and his walk rate was as high as his 2007 career high. In 2008 he didn’t get as many hits and extra-base hits when he put the ball in play (whether due to luck or flawed mechanics), which made a sub par hitter look terrible.
By Lew
November 20, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this
Tennesseejed-How exactly (and why) would Peavy “drive the price up”? Dudes’ already signed for five years. The only real “power play” he could make is to ask for a guarantee of the option year-a move I doubt anyone would reject, anyway. Dude’s not going to require that his entire contract be renegotiated. No one would really trade for him under those circumstances, IMO, if such were the case. No one is going to give up the package asked for in trade and then pay Free Agent prices for him.
Honestly-the Cubs don’t need him and are reportedly at their salary threshold with Dempster’s signing, so where does that leave Peavy’s desire to be a Cub?
Roman Gal-We’re doing fine up here in the Great White North. It hit 11 degrees overnight. Still no snow accumulation, but the cold is here. The snow can’t be all that far behind.
By Efrim
November 20, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this
Utley out 4-6 months with hip surgery.
By N8
November 20, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this
mbatl
“If he only wants to pitch for the Cubs, why expand the list?”
It’s apparent, that Towers HAS TO move Peavy, due to salary issues from ownership.
If Peavy wants the Cubs, but the Cubs don’t want him bad enough, or Towers is telling Peavy that the Cubs offer isn’t good enough, and isn’t gonna be good enough, Peavy might have to expand the list.
By Random
November 20, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this
N8: “Sorry for mis-quoting you (or paraphrasing), I know how much that annoys you.”
Yeah — the only thing he hates worse is when I quote him accurately.
By Mr. Snrub
November 20, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this
You guys see Utley is out for 6 months?
By GermanBravesFan
November 20, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this
Funny, how people talk about the Giants’ potential rotation IF they added Sabathia.. yet, nobody mentions Barry Zito - what a great #4 starter for a bargain of only $18 mill. lol
By N8
November 20, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this
DOB
It was bugging me where I read that, so I looked it up.
“As for Tom Glavine, John Smoltz and Mike Hampton, Wren said he’d like to bring each of these three pitchers back. But because of the uncertainty that surrounds them, he considers each of them as potential roster additions, who wouldn’t count as one of the two starting pitchers he’s looking to acquire.”
September 29th mlb.com article
Now, to nitpick, I guess it doesn’t say anything about the money in that paragraph. But if Wren would like to get them all back in Atlanta and STILL wants to acquire two other pitchers, I take that as him saying it would be above and beyond what the payroll limitation is.
Of course, he’s not gonna break the bank for Hampton if he gets two other guys. Maybe the same could be said for Glavine.
But like I said before, I think if Smoltz wants to pitch, he’ll pitch for the Braves regardless of his asking price (probably pretty reasonable if he’s in the pen), and regardless of what payroll is already at when Smoltz decides to pitch.
Just my opinion and guess.
By Original Jon
November 20, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this
This from mlbtraderumors.com and i quote “Peavy hasn’t revised his original list of five teams, but Axelrod says the NL West would interest Peavy (aside from the Rockies). So, maybe Giants fans have something new to speculate about. Axelrod says the list was only guidance for Towers.”
Note the italicized portion of the paragraph, it was only a guidance as to what teams he might accept a trade to
By Lew
November 20, 2008 1:27 PM | Link to this
If Peavy doesn’t want to come to the Braves, all he has to do is to tell Towers to remove the Braves from the short list. However, I’m thinking that telling it to Jeter on the Golf Course isn’t going to change much.
By JimD
November 20, 2008 1:27 PM | Link to this
N8
Peavy might have to expand the list.
No he doesn’t. He has a no trade clause.
By cphizzle
November 20, 2008 1:27 PM | Link to this
amen brotha i mean i just dont get what do they have to be so cocky about…what the fact that they havent won a championship in over a 100 years…how does any one team carry such a arrogant fanbase…i went to the braves cubs doubleheader this past season and i swear i was in wrigley, i want to pull my ears off and beat myself with them
By JimD
November 20, 2008 1:32 PM | Link to this
One other thought about the supposed $40-50 miliion payroll increase. Sure, Wren has suggested that, but isn’t it possible they are willing to go significantly higher, but didn’t want Agents to hear that?
The Braves’ Front Office has always been VERY GOOD at playing their cards close to their chest.
By Efrim
November 20, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this
Ian : Tommy Hanson (Atl) is he a future ace?
Keith Law: (1:31 PM ET ) Yes.
By Erik
November 20, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this
DOB that signing Smoltz and/or Glavine would be money above whatever it is the Braves have to spend. I’ve written no such a thing.
I Could be wrong but I am pretty sure you did write that 3 or 4 blogs ago. In fact I am pretty sure it was in response to my post. But it doesn’t really matter I have a different question for you though.
DOB my real question is this. It seems very likely that the braves will trade either KJ or Yunel this offseason. With the market for Furcal heating up is there any way the braves would sign him in order to ensure they get him before any deal any trade happens? Also let’s say that happens and the Braves trade KJ any chance one of them could be shifted to 2B?
Thanks DOB
By justdoit
November 20, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this
anyone think there is any chance the yankees would trade phil hughes? - maybe for flowers and another prospect? having arguably the two top pitching prospects in all of baseball would be awesome.. hanson hughes jj would be an amazing start to a very young roatation. throw peavy and hudson in there and that is a potential lights out roatation… just a thought but it would probably never happen..
By DAP
November 20, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this
N8 i remember DOB saying something similar, i think it was actually a quote from wren, but it made me thinking that signing glavine or smoltz wouldnt count toward the $40mil or so we had to spend. i could have sworn that was said somewhere, so it must not have been to hard to misunderstand. dont feel to bad :-)
probably what was said was signing glavine or smoltz would be over and above the other needs the braves had, (two pitchers and a power bat) and you and i took it to mean money.
By N8
November 20, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
“Jim D*
“No he doesn’t. He has a no trade clause.”
Uh…if he wants to be traded, he does? The whole point of this conversation is based on the speculation that he WANTS to play for the Cubs and DOESN’T want to play for the Braves.
If Towers doesn’t want the Cubs offer, and Peavy doesn’t wanna play for the Braves, they can hold each other hostage.
The worst case scenario for the Padres and Peavy, is no trade is worked out, and Towers guts the team around Peavy to get down to where ownership wants payroll to be.
Similar to when JS had to trade Milwood because Maddux accetpted arbitration.
You think if Towers gutted the roster, that Peavy would change his “list” of teams he’d go to?
This whole thing is one big pizzing contest, and in the end it just smells like a dirty urinal.
Time to move on.
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 20, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this
Yeah…I was at games Two and Five of the Division series in ‘03, I think it was. I saw so many damn “Got Wood” signs I wanted to vomit all over myself.
Also, the only time I’ve seen a fight at Turner Field was at that game 5 right when it ended. Not only are Cubs fans arrogant, they are poorly behaved and just not smart baseball fans.
I will never go to a Cubs/Braves game at Turner Field ever again.
By nolie
November 20, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this
Here’s a question: do you protect Thorman and Eric Campbell?SteveO
I’d say definitely no to Thorman, Campbell probably yes, depending on whether they think he is getting his head on straight.
By mbatl
November 20, 2008 1:49 PM | Link to this
Time to move on.
N8, I agree (just don’t have much more to add to it). It’s got to be really difficult for both Towers and Wren (and other GM’s) to negotiate a firm deal when the list of teams Peavy will accept seems to float around. I would’ve thought the first thing Towers would’ve done would be to get a firm list of teams from Peavy, so he could negotiate with adequate authority to actually make a deal.
My main point was, just reading between the lines, I think Wren is through negotiating on it. Towers either accepts what we’ve offered, or doesn’t. I don’t see us upping the ante or going through a complete new round of negotiations.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this
DTF,S I will never go to a Cubs/Braves game at Turner Field ever again.
Me neither!! We went to the game on August…13, 2008…those fans were ANNOYING!!!
So Utley’s having hip surgery…yikes!
Hip surgery gives me the willies.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 20, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this
That was game 2 on August 13, BTW.
Good to hear from ya, Roman Gal!
By JimD
November 20, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this
Yes, N8, all you say is true, but the fact remains Peavy can stay in SD if he wants to.
I would agree with you that I can’t imagine him wanting to, other than the fact he has made his family’s home there and the weather is perfect year round, but from a competitor’s standpoint I would think he would rather be somewhere else.
All this is a moot point, though. He will be a Brave by the end of the month. I will bet Coach’s life on it.
By Efrim
November 20, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this
Ed( San Diego,CA): Love your insight Keith. I know you dont think too much of Peavy but do you think a deal gets done to one of the new clubs he’s added to his list or eventually the Braves’ deal gets done? Is Escobar, Flowers, Rohrbaugh and Locke too much to ask for a Triple Crown Cy Young arm? Thanks
Keith Law: (1:46 PM ET ) That’s not accurate. I think Peavy has been overrated by the media and many fans. I still think he’s a well above-average pitcher. Atlanta remains the most likely landing spot, but I’d balk at that offer you listed. You’re talking about two everyday players by 2010 plus two very, very good arms.
For that to be agreed to by the Braves, I think a Padres fan dressed up like Frank Wren would have to agree to it while Frank Wren was tied up somewhere.
By dadgum
November 20, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this
GermanBravesFan…Wren is not dealing from a position of strength. NOt to say Towers is either. I will say that it is more important for the Braves to acquire Peavy than it is for Towers to deal him to Atlanta. Peavy is basically Atlanta’s only option for a top-tier pitcher with the price tag that will go along with it. So, YES Wren needs to pull the trigger NOW and he knows what he has to do to make it happen.
Our big outfield bat will most likely come via trade and it appears Kelly Johnson will be the player dealt. With Prado certainly the better option at 2nd I can’t see KJ staying in Atlanta.
Furcal is the #1 option for Atlanta at SS especially if they don’t sign a big ticket free agent. They will have plenty of cash to throw at him. Yes, you throw serious money at a serious SS when you have Peavy et al on the hill.
The bet is even money that both Peavy and Furcal suit up for teh Braves in ‘09.
Rock on……….get ‘er done! Did I actually say that?
By cphizzle
November 20, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this
Speaking of Wood…What is the latest on him? Any potential suitors for his services? I am not suggesting anything, i think he is to much of a risk
By crabapple
November 20, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this
peavy…peavy…PEAVY…PEAVY…PEAVY…..PEAVY…PEAVY…peavy…peavy
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this
NEW BLOGGAGE, we got some NEW BLOGGAGE. Right this way….
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 20, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this
The Chicago Cubs should refund all opposing teams fans for their road games. At least until they’re fans learn that the Cubs don’t play 162 games at the Wrigley “Your Bar Away From Home” Field.
By rammerjammer
November 20, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this
I dunno…maybe we should just take our lumps, a la 1990, and give JJ, Hanson, Reyes and Morton the ball every fifth day (with Campillo spot starting/long relief).
We might be trying too hard to compete in 2009 when it would be better, long-term, to aim for 2010 and beyond.
By David O'Brien
November 20, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this
Let me ask you this: Is Ryan Howard a defensive liability for the Phillies? Does he strike out a ton? Now I�m not saying Dunn is the same player as Howard,…ppaddy
I’m sure glad you’re not comparing Dunn to Howard, since Howard has a .279 career average and has averaged 144 RBI the past three seasons, while Dunn has a .247 career average (lower each the past three seasons) and has averaged just below 100 RBI the past three seasons.