AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2008 > November > 07 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USPondering a Jake for Yunel, Gorkys, Charlie….
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
A few thoughts while packing (again) for a trip to Arizona tomorrow to see Tommy Hanson and other Braves prospects in the Fall League, and thinking that FX’s The Shield and Sons of Anarchy are better than anything on the big networks, and, oh yeah, pondering the Braves possibly including center-field prospect Gorkys Hernandez and pitcher Charlie Morton along with Yunel Escobar (the centerpiece from Atlanta’s end) and another, lesser prospect in the trade for San Diego Padres ace Jake Peavy.
Maybe you’ve heard the Braves are pursuing Peavy, yes? There’s been a little written about it recently.
But seriously, the inclusion of Hernandez in the past couple of days was a development we thought would probably eventually occur, since the Braves had made it known they were flatly refusing to include either of their top two prospects, pitcher Tommy Hanson and outfielder Jason Heyward.
And since the Padres need young outfield depth in addition to pitching, it seemed inevitable that Jordan Schafer or Hernandez would have to be included eventually, since the Braves didn’ want to three or four of their top pitching prospects not named Hanson to the Padres along with Escobar.
So they’re going from a positions of strength, center field and pitching, in addition to the painful but apparently no-way-around-it part of the deal, Escobar. (Braves would probably prefer to trade second baseman Kelly Johnson, whom they could replace from within, but the Padres want Escobar badly.)
Schafer and Hernandez are both center fielders, and both were among the Braves’ top-five prospects entering the 2008 according to Baseball America. Schafer will slip from his No. 1 perch when the new list is out, after his 50-game suspension for alleged HGH use last season.
But he’s still regarded by the Braves as a potential future All-Star, just as Hernandez is. While Hernandez has more speed (blazing, blazing speed) and range, and probably a slightly stronger arm, Schafer is a couple of years ahead of him in development, has more power, and might legitimately be ready to play CF for the Braves in 2009.
Charlie Morton might develop into a top-half-of-rotation starter in the future, but for now his confidence and aggressiveness are far behind his stuff. Let’s just say, there are plenty more questions about him, in the eyes of those who’ve seen both, than there are about Hanson.
The irony is that trading Escobar to the Padres is, according to Peavy’s agent, something that could possibly affect the Alabama native’s decision on whether to waive his no-trade clause and agree to a trade to the Braves.
At least that’s what agent Barry Axelrod indicated to the San Diego Union-Tribune’s Tom Krasovic. Axelrod told the Padres beat writer that the Padres had not yet asked for approval on a trade, but in preparing for that request that could come soon, he and Peavy have been evaluating potential trade partners.
Peavy’s knows the World Series-winning Phillies and big-payrolled Mets are in the East with the Braves, and he wants to make sure he goes to a competitive team, not just one located close to the house he keeps in his hometown of Semmes, Ala.
“One of the things we will want to look at some point is, ‘Who are you giving up? How much are you weakening your team to make this deal?’” Axelrod told the San Diego newspaper. “If Team X trades three starting pitchers and a starting shortstop to get Jake Peavy, that lessens their chance of being a successful team.”
In the midst of these developments the past couple of days, there were hints and statements from San Diego Padres’ officials that the Cubs had moved even or ahead of the Braves in the race for Peavy. And that an unnamed third team was also in the mix (widely believe to be the Dodgers, although there remain many skeptics who don’t believe Towers would actually trade Peavy to the division rival from just up the freeway, and that he’s only using the Dodgers to leverage more talent out of the Braves or Cubs in a trade).
Before we go any further, let me point out that Axelrod is also a close friend of Padres GM Kevin Towers, and also used to represent the manager. Towers, by the way, said this week that there’s very little chance he doesn’t trade Peavy this winter, that “the train has left the station.”
I point this out, about their friendship, because it’s raised eyebrows in the past and I heard some mention it again during the GM meetings.
Anyway, I asked Axelrod this morning if he could clarify the comments he made to Krasovic, a veteran reporter most of us refer to as “Kras.”
Axelrod took the time to send me an e-mail explaining:
“In my conversation with Kras,” Axelrod wrote, “he asked if there had been any approval in advance of trades to any team, as had been reported in some media. I told him that there had not been and that the reason for that is that we would want to fully analyze any potential destination team in terms of a variety of factors (ownership, management, farm system, ballpark, training staff, etc.), which would include the winning prospects for the team.
“Obviously, the personnel in the lineup would be a factor and that can’t be analyzed until we know who might be included in the trade going back to the Padres. The reference to Escobar was by example only. If you read the full quote, I said something about a team giving up three starting pitchers and a starting shortstop which would materially alter the makeup of that team after the trade. I could just have easily used Kershaw and Billingsley with the Dodgers or Harden and DeRosa of the Cubs. I was just explaining by using an example. I did not mean to infer that the Braves would not be acceptable if Escobar were no longer there.”
He added: “I have said that in some ways this situation is like free agency for Jake and that we are approaching it that way. By that, I mean that he has some choice in where he ends up and, in order to make that choice most prudently, we should take the opportunity to examine any situation where he might eventually end up. That is why we would look at team makeup and have an opinion on it. It would be unusual in a normal trade situation, but this is a situation where there is a full no trade involved, which makes it a little different.”
I also asked him if he thought the Cubs had assumed “the lead” in the race for Peavy and whether negotiations with the Braves had reached a standstill.
“I don’t know which team has the lead here and that is not in our control,” he replied. “Once the Padres tell us they have something on the burner and ask for approval, we will know who the leading contender is, but that has not happened.
“I don’t think talks are at a standstill. I know that Towers was talking to teams right up to the end of the GM meetings and my impression is that the Braves were one of the teams.”
Inside the Braves’ offices, if this deal falls through, I wonder if some might be uncomfortable about Peavy’s agent and Towers’ friend Axelrod having a potentially significant level of influence on this situation.
Of course, Peavy certainly has that right, as a guy with a full no-trade clause. But the appearance, well, you can see where it might not sit well with some.
It’s become obvious that if the Braves included Hanson, this deal would have been done. But the Braves aren’t going to include Hanson, who could well be the No. 1 pitching prospect in all of baseball, and is projected to be an eventual top-of-the-rotation starter by the Braves.
For now, they see him as possibly part of a dream rotation in 2010 that would include Peavy, another veteran (probably free agent) to be acquired this winter, Tim Hudson, Jair Jurrjens and Hanson.
And while Axelrod and Peavy might rightly assume the Braves would not be as good up the middle defensively if Escobar is traded, I’m guessing that the Braves would surely intend to replace Escobar with another proven shortstop, not by plugging the gap with Omar Infante, Martin Prado or Brent Lillibridge.
The Braves have replaced shortstops in the past, acquiring Edgar Renteria for 2007 after Rafael Furcal left as a free agent, them handing the reins to Escobar in 2008 after trading Renteria to Detroit for the aforementioned Gorkys Hernandez and Jurrjens.
They probably believe they could do it again, acquiring either a free agent (Renteria’s available, as are Orlando Cabrera and Caesar Izturis or, if they want to spend bigger, Furcal) or by trading for someone like Julio Lugo, J.J. Hardy or Maicer Izturis. This time, the Braves have more money to spend than they had in the recent past when they had to replace a shortstop.
Would any of them be as good as Escobar? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe one would be better, at least for 2009. You don’t know. But as much as I like Escobar and believe, as the Braves do, that he’s a potential future All-Star, let’s not act as though his offense is irreplaceable. Look at the numbers.
If the Padres are angling to get Hanson in the deal instead of Escobar, it’s almost certainly not going to work. Everything I’ve heard is that the Braves are flat-out not going to trade Hanson. Can’t say that I blame them. You don’t trade potential No. 1 starters who are so close to being ready (you think Detroit would ask for a do-over on the Jurrjens trade?).
While it’s still early in the offseason and the free-agent filing period hasn’t even ended, the problem with the Peavy thing potentially dragging out is that it’s the key piece for the Braves, who need to move on to trying to secure another No. 1-caliber pitcher if they aren’t going to get Peavy.
The Braves can’t go full-bore into those other pitchers if they think they’re going to land Peavy, or even if they believe there’s a good chance they will.
Personally, I still get the impression that Atlanta is the favorite, because the names I hear thrown around connected to the Cubs’ bid just don’t strike me as a more attractive package for the payroll-slashing Padres.
But who knows how the Padres view it? So much posturing, so many leaks from so many different media members’ sources, some with agendas, some lacking actual knowledge and merely speculating.
One minute, the Braves are the leading suitor. Next the Dodgers. Then the Cubs.
It will end soon. It must. Mustn’t it? Please, let it end.
“SWEET THING” by Van Morrison
And I will stroll the merry way
And jump the hedges first
And I will drink the clear
Clean water for to quench my thirst
And I shall watch the ferry-boats
And they’ll get high
On a bluer ocean
Against tomorrow’s sky
And I will never grow so old again
And I will walk and talk
In gardens all wet with rain
Oh sweet thing, sweet thing
My, my, my, my, my sweet thing
And I shall drive my chariot
Down your streets and cry
‘Hey, it’s me, I’m dynamite
And I don’t know why’
And you shall take me strongly
In your arms again
And I will not remember
That I even felt the pain.
We shall walk and talk
In gardens all misty and wet with rain
And I will never, never, never
Grow so old again.
Oh sweet thing, sweet thing
My, my, my, my, my sweet thing
And I will raise my hand up
Into the night time sky
And count the stars
That’s shining in your eye
Just to dig it all an’ not to wonder
That’s just fine
And I’ll be satisfied
Not to read in between the lines
And I will walk and talk
In gardens all wet with rain
And I will never, ever, ever, ever
Grow so old again.
Oh sweet thing, sweet thing
Sugar-baby with your champagne eyes
Comments
By FANcoeur
November 7, 2008 7:17 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the new blog, Chief!
By BravesFanChris24
November 7, 2008 7:20 PM | Link to this
I agree, please let it end.
I just hope Peavy becomes a Brave. If not, let it end already so Wren can go onto other needs and get them filled.
By Kris in NC
November 7, 2008 7:23 PM | Link to this
Well Being the 1st one is an honor. Now on to business at hand.
After reading this blog and other message boards concerning the Cubs offer and our offer for Peavy, let’s just say, the Cubs are offering a boat load of people including Rich Harden, if the rumors are true to get one Ace.
We are offering 3 players possibly 4 which involve Yunel, Gorkys or Jordan and Charlie Morton and maybe someone else. We are giving them 2 players ready to play immediately where the Cubbies are giving them a bunch of players who will be riding the bench or in their minor league system for a while.
If Axelrod, Peavy and Towers like the deal with the Cubs, then do it, stop yanking our chain. Wren can get on with signing some of these other free agents who are available.
DOB, have you heard any rumors concerning the Braves interest in getting Scott Olsen from the Marlins? Considering this was rumored on mlbtraderumors.com.
Love your blogs, keep them coming.
By jason
November 7, 2008 7:26 PM | Link to this
I would deal Escobar (as mch as I like him) I would. Then I would try to re-sign Renteria, or sign Cabrera. 2 similar productive players to Escobar. With either, they could take Lillbridge under their wing and teach real fundementals of playing short stop in the Majors. I would perfer Johnson, but if Escobar, Hernandez, or Schaefer will get Peavey to ATL, then go for it.
By mbatl
November 7, 2008 7:27 PM | Link to this
DOB, you promise a “filler” blog for the sake of a clean slate, and produce a pretty interesting, very detailed email quote from Axelrod. Well done, sir!
Couple of thoughts… I mentioned on the last blog that I think acquiring JJ Hardy would soften, almost eliminate, the pain of losing Escobar. Do you think there’s any chance he’d be on our radar, or is he out of reach?
And, my thoughts on Peavy’s concerns about the viability of the team around him: does he really think we’re prepared to give up a package of young talent, and $60-80 million, because we plan to be mediocre? I guess I understand the concern, but the very fact that we’re pursuing him to that degree suggests the Braves are serious about returning to prominence.
By KW
November 7, 2008 7:27 PM | Link to this
My first post ever. DOB: Man, you are good at your trade. Always enjoy your writings and love of baseball and the Braves. Would love to have Peavy, but hate to part with Escobar. I think the Braves can replace “most” of his potential, but his ceiling sure is high. Thanks for the insight.
By Sims
November 7, 2008 7:29 PM | Link to this
How this thing shakes out I can’t wait to see. But I know this: It’s awful nice to be spenders for a change.
Go Braves!
By Robert
November 7, 2008 7:31 PM | Link to this
Forget Kevin Towers. We should offer Kelly Johnson, Gorkys Hernandez, Charlie Morton and Jo Jo Reyes. I would tell him take it or leave it. I can’t even imagine my disgust if we trade our future ace
By BravesFanInRockies
November 7, 2008 7:32 PM | Link to this
As always, DOB, above and beyond the call of duty. Many thanks.
By Fahim
November 7, 2008 7:32 PM | Link to this
DOB: Nice update….though I have to disagree with your assessment that FX’s The Shield and Sons of Anarchy are better than anything on the major networks. ABC’s Life on Mars is an incredible new show (well remake of the British show anyway). Just when you think you have it figured out the writers throw you for a loop. Fun, fun show to watch and extremely “deep”.
I hope the Braves don’t end up giving up too many prospects (ala Teixiera’s trade) and mortgaging the future again. At least in this case we would have Peavy for several seasons.
Would the Braves seriously consider bringing Renteria back considering the success (and his popularity) here if Escobar is traded?
By Joe M.
November 7, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this
I like Jack Wilson to replace Escobar if Escobar is traded.
BaseballProspectus today says that Gorkys Hernandez is named after Maxim Gorky. Is that really true?
By fastasballs
November 7, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the great blogs DOB. Looks to me you are working just as hard, if not harder during this potentially busy off season than sometimes during the season itself.
I would pull the trigger for Peavy for those three players. In fact I think the Braves are getting off cheaper than I thought if that deal is actually settled on.
I’m not a huge Escobar fan, neutral on Morton, but think Gorkys has the best future of all of them. He would be a great fit in San Diego because he can cover some serious ground & will be a doubles & triples machine in that big ballpark. I’ve seen him live about 6-8 times while he was at Myrtle Beach this year.
I think Escobar will continue to develop into a great player, but he has the makings of a huge pain in the butt if you ask me. Morton is very timid, but does have the stuff to stay in the bigs.
I think Wren is trying hard to keep the farm in tact, well at least the top 5-10 guys in the system. It’s going to pay big dividends over the next 2-3 years if these kids continue their progress.
I think Wren wants this deal done ASAP because as you say Wren’s hands are kind of tied in regards to other trades or signings until this deal is done.
Anyway keep up the good work DOB. I can’t post very often because it’s my busy season. About 80-90 hours a week of work for me so not much free time to hang on the blog.
By cameron
November 7, 2008 7:37 PM | Link to this
Personally, I love Yunel Escobar and he is a great player, but if we can get JJ Hardy id trade Yunel in a second. Yunel is projected to hit what, 15-20 HRs? JJ Hardy hit like 23 last year and 70+ RBI’s. Plus dont the Brewers have another young SS coming up? Anyways, I think we need to make the Peavy deal, and get JJ Hardy!!
By Billy Walsh
November 7, 2008 7:40 PM | Link to this
Why would the Padres want Harden? Hes always hurt, will make 7 million next year, and is in the last year of his contract. The padres want young talented affordable players that they can control for many years. Sound familiar? Please no Scott Olsen! He cant crack 90 anymore, walks a ton of batters, is a knuckle head, and gave up 30 home runs last year. He is Chuck James in a Marlins uniform. I think we are going to see Hanson start 2009 in the Braves starting rotation.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 7:42 PM | Link to this
N8 How is this for a band name? “Grandpa Porter and the Porter Potties”
I played in that band; we were a one night stand. Brought down the house. Bunch of old fart rocker wanna bees. Fun night!
Thanks Dave for the new blog and update from Axelrod. I can see why the Braves in JS’s day didn’t like no trade clauses. Nothing like the player telling you who you can or can’t trade for…
By Chad
November 7, 2008 7:48 PM | Link to this
I love Peavy, but if this thing drags on much longer we need to pull out and go after Burnett and Penny. Then we could go ahead and trade Kelly for Ludwick and plug in a speedster at second.
If we went after Furcal would him or Escobar be willing to move to second?
Personally I would like Escobar at third, Furcal at short and Chipper at first with Kotchman traded for a reliever or back of the rotation type starter.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 7, 2008 7:49 PM | Link to this
Uuuhh…I think FANcoeur’s the guy who was impersonating me…then again, it could be that guy from Spring Training making a comeback…
Anyway: Thanks for the new Blog……CHIEF!
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 7:50 PM | Link to this
Kris, if the Braves get Peavy, then Scott Olsen or someone of that ilk would probably satisfy their other starter need. If they don’t get Peavy, they might aim a little higher for that second guy (and lower for the first, if you follow me).
That’s why this Peavy thing is so important to get done, because so much else hinges on it. For instance, Braves are trying to get Ludwick from St. Louis, but the Cards want Escobar or KJ. Braves don’t want to star over completely with a new middle infield, don’t want to trade both Escobar and KJ this winter. So you can see where that might also depend on this Peavy thing.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 7:50 PM | Link to this
All winter I will continue to hold my breath, being a serious “prospect hugger”.
I really would love to see us go into 2009 with Schafer in center, and Hanson in the 5 hole.
On a lesser scale, I am not as down on JoJo Reyes as many of my friends here are. For half of his starts this year, he was very steady, and at times exceptional. If he ever figures it out, he could be a 2-3 position lefty. Lots of guys do goofy stupid stuff when trying to learn how to pitch.
I know it has nothing to do with pitching, but for those old timers on here, remember when John Smoltz missed some time from burning himself by trying to steam out a wrinkle in his shirt, WHILE WEARING IT!!!
So, he turned out OK. I remember laughing my azz off when I heard that story!
(Hey, Dave, ask JS for his version of that story sometime.) It would be fun to have him on the blog sometime for a Q&A session. btw, where is “you know who” these days?
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 7:51 PM | Link to this
Joe M, have you ever tried a Maxim Gorky. It can be painful at first.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 7, 2008 7:53 PM | Link to this
Maybe you’ve heard the Braves are pursuing Peavy, yes? There’s been a little written about it recently.
LOL!
By Efrim
November 7, 2008 7:53 PM | Link to this
DOB
If Escobar, Gorkys and Morton are the offer, than great. Because I didn’t want Schafer included over Gorkys. He is closer to the majors and, well, more polished of a prospect. In fact, it suprises me that the Padres aren’t demanding him. But after Bowman’s article saying that Padres officials were “lukewarm”, adding Gorkys only makes sense. I’d even throw in another pitcher or reliever to get this thing done. Maybe Medlen, Marek, Gearrin or Rodgers. I’d stay away from adding Locke, Rohrbough or Delgado to this package.
By ncscoots
November 7, 2008 7:58 PM | Link to this
nolie, re your 5:05 last blog, I’m pretty sure I’ll be over Escobar by the winter meetings, LOL. That’s baseball. I’ll probably still look the kid up once in a while, heck, I still check out Andrus occasionally, too.
You know what I’m talking about, I’ll bet. You see a young kid in the minors, he grabs your eye, and it’s easy to form a small attachment to him, wish him the best, and hope that he makes the most of his talent and opportunity.
High-level talent in a youngster is just such a beautiful thing to watch, expecially if you can see that talent grow over a couple of years, see it start to blossom and all. I don’t scout for a living, so I can get away with a little emotional attachment :-).
Besides, despite seeing a ton of Braves’ minor league ball in the summer, I bet there aren’t a dozen that I’ve formed firm opinions about over the last few years. Bill Shanks would probably think I’m a doofus, but there you go!
By cameron
November 7, 2008 8:01 PM | Link to this
Seriously so how many of you are hardheaded. For all the people that waste a comment on here saying “IS HANSON REALLY OFF LIMITS” or “HANSON ISNT LEAVING IS HE”, you need to read the blog, of some of the comments before you post that stupid question. DOB, and pretty much every sports writer in the baseball world, and also most of everyone on here, as said it maybe a million times litterly. So lets say it one more time so all of you that KEEP asking WONT ask anymore..
* TOMMY HANSON, Pitching prospect for the Atlanta Braves. IS, I repeat IS-NOT-GOING-TO-BE-TRADED *
By Wilson
November 7, 2008 8:06 PM | Link to this
DOB, thanks for all you do. I really enjoy reading your work.
I know dealing KJ for Ludwick won’t happen if Escobar is sent to SD, but if that happens do you think that deal would still be available involving another player for Ludwick? I guess what I’m asking is do you have an idea of who the Cards are interested in other than KJ?
By BravesFanInRockies
November 7, 2008 8:06 PM | Link to this
Chad,
My head is spinning with these infield moves. And besides, as has been said here about a zillion times, Chipper ain’t moving to first!
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 8:12 PM | Link to this
scoots AMEN! Remember Brad Komminsk?
:-)
By Doc Holliday
November 7, 2008 8:15 PM | Link to this
flange1
Now you are talking…… I think we have enough flexibility not to move forward. Infante and Prado are very good players………not great, but very good. I wouldnt put KJ above Infante nor Prado. Yunel is the obvious choice if you ask anyone to play SS. Thats no a brainer. But we have to pay a price to get Peavy. And it wont be cheap. Would you rather give Hanson away? Im sure you wouldnt. As you mention, we can make thinks work if we get Peavy and some other great pitcher………get Ludwig or some other power hitter and fills the gaps with Infante, Lilly and Prado. There is no reason to be affraid. We have a pitching shortage and need to address it.
We have learned the name of the game……….pitching, pitching, pitching………and then came the phillies. But that is something like the Halley Comet. Get the pitching and start from there. That should be the philosophy.
Problem is……….there will be no back up for middle infielders on the bench other than Lilly…….who hits like a grandma.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 8:16 PM | Link to this
Wilson Not to try to answer for Dave, but it seems that the Cards need middle infielders and starting pitching. Just from my observation. We might not have a shot at him without KJ.
To all of you nitram odarp fans, why aren’t we seeing rumors of him to STL for Ludwick? He is a superior second baseman to KJ now, isn’t he??? (he says as he smiles)
By Doc Holliday
November 7, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this
DOB I understand what you say…….Prado is not a SS and will no field like yunel did. All Im saying is that the combination of his great skills hitting and fielding plus the addition of Peavy……..would be enough to make up for the absence of yunel. Prado wont be GREAT at SS but he will not look as bad as KJ at 2B. Im pretty sure of that, even with his limited arm strength and fielding range, which I do understand is nothing but average for a SS or maybe a little bit below. No reason for it not to get better.
But as I asked yesterday……….
Wouldnt you be OK with Prado at SS if you were getting Peavy as a compensation?
Problem is I understand that the Braves are willing to give up Shafer or Heyward………..thats a thing I dont really want to happen. I understand JoJo or Morton might be gone also but I dont have a problem with that.
By Jim Hertel
November 7, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this
I love the hot stove league. Decisions made now will either pay off next season, or we are in for another long dry spell. However, obviously, It’s very important to make the right choices. For that reason, I can see a scenario where we could trade both middle infielders and still come out ahead. If it is determined that Ryan Ludwick is the man, and the Cardinals want Johnson — do it! We have Prado ready to go and I think we don’t lose anything here. If Escobar is coveted by the Padres and we can’t get Peavy without including him — then trade him and bring Furcal back. I think in Furcal we have the lead-off hitter and speed that has been missing. I hated to see us have to let Furcal go because of the intangibles he brings to the team. I would not be as interested in seeing Renteria return. I think we lose something in the field, and he brings no speed on the bases. Also, 2007 may have been his high peak year for hitting.
In my mind the real question becomes — is Ludwick the hitter we need and want? In Peavy, Prado, and F*******, we know what we are getting.
By Efrim
November 7, 2008 8:22 PM | Link to this
Of course, if that lesser prospect is Cole Rohrbough or Jeff Locke, than it is a mighty fine bounty by San Diego. And I am wondering why in gods name they haven’t taken it yet. But it’s all speculation on my part. Anyways, can’t wait to get this thing over with, whether he comes to the Braves, Dodgers or Cubs.
By Nelson
November 7, 2008 8:26 PM | Link to this
* Question* How could we possibly get Ludwick if we deal Yunel for Peavy? Since we don’t won’t trade KJ after trading Yunel.
By Jim Hertel
November 7, 2008 8:29 PM | Link to this
The screening device used by the newspaper must have thought I dropped the F bomb! I assure you that I did not and would never do that.
One more thought — it now seems apparent that Lilliquist was greatly over valued when we got him from the Pirates. He is not a young man now, and it now seems sure that he is not a candidate to play shortstop next year if Escobar leaves. It just goes to show you that evaluating young players is not an exact science.
By Mike
November 7, 2008 8:31 PM | Link to this
DOB
I like the trade idea. I also read that Jeff Samarzjiauhjgdvjsa (sp?…whatever) from the Cubs is off limits, so maybe that puts us at the top again…but who knows. Do you think the Braves would go after Furcal if they lost Escobar? I know that would eat up some of the available funds, but a healthy Furcal in lead off would be a big step towards a return to the top. The year after he left is when our dominance ended. Now I’m not saying he was the cause, but we havent had a true lead-off base stealing threat since then. Also…do you think the Braves would still shoot for a Lowe type even if they got Peavy. Mark Bowman mentions how the adition of Peavy would make us very attractive to a FA pitcher, and WOW what a rotation in 2010…Peavy, Hudson, Lowe, JJ & Hanson. That would be dynamite. Then of course that still leaves LF power. Who knows who to go after. If we could trade KJ and another for Ludwick, how hard would it be to get people comfortable with one another. I mean KJ and Furcal would still have to learn each other, so why not just make it Prado and Furcal to learn one another. This is all very exciting. I hope that Frank can work some magic. With the right moves, 2009 could be our year again. GO BRAVES!!!
By Fury
November 7, 2008 8:31 PM | Link to this
Any chance the Braves go after Fielder. I’d love to package Kotchman and something for him. Damn we need his power something bad.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 8:37 PM | Link to this
Doc Holliday Can I take a stab at answering your question? Not trying to be argumentative, but just analyzing the facts, which you seem to want to avoid.
All Im saying is that the combination of his great skills hitting and fielding
Great hitting skills? One season of over 300 with only some gap power is not great hitting skills.
Also, great fielding? Are you kidding me?? If he is any better than KJ at second, it is only marginally. He has good hands, and an average at best arm. He does NOT have the range required to play SS, nor does he have the arm strength to throw runners out from deep in the hole, IF he ever got to anything deep in the hole.
My guess is you give the other team 1-2 hits per game when you put a guy like Prado at SS.
You mention that he might get better range at SS by playing it more, well, I wouldn’t think so. Usually a player gets better at hitting, and loses a step over time in the range category.
David O’Brien watches a lot of baseball, and the Braves insiders know a lot about baseball. Why is it that Prado has NEVER been used for more than a game or two at SS when we have needed someone badly in the past. It is because they know something that you for some reason refuse to understand or hear; Prado is NOT a major league SS.
The answer to your question would be a resounding NO, it would not be OK to have Prado as our SS, if we could get Peavy.
To be perfectly honest, I wouldn’t doubt the Braves would go with Lillibridge WAY before going with Prado at SS.
One more thought. If Prado is so danged good, why aren’t the Cardinals clamouring to trade Ludwick for him, instead they want KJ or Escobar. Can they be so stupid to not see that Prado is far superior to KJ?????
Please, don’t take this personal, but Prado is NOT a SS.
By nolie
November 7, 2008 8:38 PM | Link to this
LIFE ON MARS is pretty good with an excellent cast(and a great stache) but I wouldn’t rate it with The SHIELD, maybe close to SOA, but not THE SHIELD. I don’t like much that has come out this season. Fringe,The Mentalist, Sanctuary and True Blood are ok I guess. Actually True Blood has become one of my guilty faves I guess, though I’m kinda ashamed to mention it.
By brian
November 7, 2008 8:39 PM | Link to this
I understand why the Braves do not want to start over with a new middle infield, but if they get Renteria, Cabrera, or Hardy I will be less concerned.
If it came down to Ludwick and Prado versus KJ and Blanco/Anderson - I would trade KJ for Ludwick even if it means a new middle infield.
If the Braves could win a pennant with Belliard and Lemke in the middle IF, Sid Bream at 1B, and Otis Nixon in CF, the Braves should do OK with a marked improvement in the starting pitching and a solid OF. If we had the current bullpen in the early to mid ’90s we would have really been something
By Tomas
November 7, 2008 8:39 PM | Link to this
DOB,
What will it take to get JJ Hardy?
I think a Tyler Flowers, and Jo-jo Reyes or James Parr would do the trick. Do you agree?
If they get Peavy, and Hardy I pressume the other starter, and outfielder will come via Free Agency.
Would they have enough money to sign Pat Burrell, Junichi Tazawa, and Ryan Dempster?
I’d guess if somehow they’d be able to sign Burrell, Tazawa, and Dempster, they wont be able to resign Mike Hampton, Will Ohman, Tom Glavine, Greg Norton, and John Smoltz? I hope they at least resign Norton.
By Tech Fan in UGA Country
November 7, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this
Great article, great information Dave. That’s why the Braves blog is the best on the site by far. Thanks, your work is appreciated.
By Salty Dawg
November 7, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this
So who is this Peavy guy anyway? Can he hit?
lol
DOB Any chance that Wren would draw a line in the proverbial sand and tell Towers, “here is what we are offering, take it or leave it by the end of the week”? I know that seems extreme and won’t work unless we are truly at the top of the list, but given that this is the lynch pin keeping us from being able to make any other moves, don’t we need to get it done or walk away sooner or later?
By Tim
November 7, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this
DOB
Is there any chance the Braves could get Peavy, but by substituting Yunel with Johnson and Lillibridge? maybe I’m being delusional but i actually think those two combined hold about the same value Yunel does. then again, maybe I’m wrong.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this
Fury Too damned fat! A liability at first. Needs to go to the AL to DH.
Jim Hertel Amen, remember Brad Komminsk! But, I still hold out hope for Lillibridge. He just looks like a player to me.
Efrim 8:22pm. AMEN!!!
Doc Sorry if I came down hard about Prado. Not trying to be argumentative. Listen to the experts (certainly not me). Dude is not a SS.
Utah Jazz are 4-0. Jerry Sloan going for win #1000 tonight with one team! Never been done before, and probably will never be done again in the NBA.
By Andrew
November 7, 2008 8:53 PM | Link to this
Dave i like that scenerio of Peavy and Olsen. How much money do you think the braves would have left to spend on say SS and LF? And what outfielder beside Ludwick might the braves be interested in?
By Doc Holliday
November 7, 2008 8:58 PM | Link to this
Wayne, Im not taking it personal. Its cool over here. I understand all you say. And is perfectly reasonable. I never said Prado was a SS or that he was better than yunel or something like that. But I can tell you………I would rather give the opposing team 1 extra hit every game with Prado at SS (2 sometimes) than to hit Lilly, he is almost an automatic out with absolutely noooooooo power. We have to make up for the lost of power once Yunel is gone. This is a team that 1 of its biggest problem last year was lack of clutch, not defense. I would rather watch Prado get 1 or 2 hits, sometimes 3 a game and give an automatic IF hit. Than have Lilly as a vacuum cleaner and give up 4 automatic outs at the plate. That kid needs to gain some 15 pounds of muscle and learn how to hit. I love his glove, but hitting? he is AAA material, if not AA.
But then again………..if you dont like Prado at SS, there is always Infante and play Prado at 2B. Get Ludwig and put him behid McCann (4th and 5th). Prado hitting 2nd and Infante hitting 7th behing Kotchman or vice versa.
By brian
November 7, 2008 9:02 PM | Link to this
DOB - you mentioned Scott Olsen - what would he cost in a trade and would he fit in the clubhhouse?
By jj
November 7, 2008 9:03 PM | Link to this
ESPN reports MLB said Mark Cuban can buy the Cubs.
Go ahead and take Greene in the deal with Peavy and get the damn thing over with. You can always trade Greene later if you don’t like his performance.
Trade KJ for Ludwick and you can find another 2b somewhere.
DOB looking forward to your reports on Hanson in couple days.
I’ve got faith in Wren to do the right thing and get the right players. God Bless the USA.
By Robert
November 7, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this
DOB
Are the Padres asking for Gorkys Hernandez over Jordan Schafer, or is Schafer on the untouchable list. What is your feeling
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 7, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this
Wayne Utah Jazz are 4-0.
Wow! Congratulations!
Maybe the Braves will go undefeated next year! That’d be fun!
; )
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this
Salty Dawg I would suspect that Frank Wren might give them an ultimatum at some point. There is still time though, as the free agents are only allowed now to talk to their own club. It is still early in the process, although the Braves are know to want to get things figured out as early as possible.
The teams I feel bad for are the ones going after Scott Borass’ clients, as he likes to slowly develop his market.
I also believe that if an ultimatum were ever given, we probably wouldn’t know about it.
By MIBravesFan
November 7, 2008 9:10 PM | Link to this
Thanks much for the intelligent and informative update. Great work getting the quotes from Peavy’s agent - very informative stuff.
By Joe M.
November 7, 2008 9:18 PM | Link to this
The whole argument is moot. Bowman wrote just yesterday that the Braves don’t view Lillibridge, Prado or Infante as viable everyday options at shortstop.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 9:21 PM | Link to this
Doc The Lillibridge vs Prado comparison is a moot point, cause it would be more of a Lillibridge vs somebody else and Prado vs KJ comparison.
But look at it this way. If each guy got 550 AB’s per season. Lillibridge hits 240, and Prado hits 300 (giving each a bit of the benefit of the doubt, as neither have proven they can hit at those levels for a season).
Lillibridge gets 132 hits. Prado gets 165 hits. That’s 33 extra hits in say, 150 games. That would be an extra hit every 5 games. Not certain 2 or 3 per night.
Again, the comparison is a moot point, as that scenario is not a possibility.
As for Infante, I don’t see him as being a 150 game a year regular. His advantage is his versatility. If the Braves thought he could be a good SS for the entire season, I don’t think we would have heard FW say he won’t trade both his middle infielders. Infante is average defensively.
One other thought, as you mentioned that Lillibridge has nooooo power. Because he has a limited major league record, compare their minor leag stats, and Lillibridge hit 34 HR’s in 1524 AB’s, with a .420 SLG %. Prado hit 16 HR’s in 2310 AB’s, with a .394 SLG %.
Looks like Lillibridge has more slugging/power potential than Prado, if you compare their minor league stats.
Let’s have this conversation in 3 years, after Lillibridge is starting at SS for some team, and Prado is still a utility player somewhere.
Just my guess.
By Salty Dawg
November 7, 2008 9:25 PM | Link to this
Wayne I agree that there is still plenty of time. It just irks me that SD is clearly playing the various teams against each other to get more out of the deal and I don’t want to see the Braves get backed into a bad deal. I think we are currently offering plenty for Peavy.
By Samuel Stiles
November 7, 2008 9:27 PM | Link to this
LONG time reader. First time blogger. Let me start out by saying that this is THE best blog in the baseball circuit. David O’Brien is, without a doubt, the most versatile/best moderator in the sports blogosphere. Many thanks to the regulars on the blog that make this an incredibly anticipated daily/nightly/LATE nightly read. I thought about using Craig McMurtry as my blog name because it is the only Braves player I ever met in person. But, in the end i stayed with my moniker, Stiles. and NO….(I was not not the guy in that movie “Teen Wolf) Been a hardcore fan since 1984, and I am only 30,so.. Here are my two cents:
1st cent: As the organization stands, We are built to be truly awesome in 2011. Look, any Braves fan would drool to have Peavy in a Braves uniform, and if they wouldn’t they are not a fan. BUT If we can not get him for players in our system who are blocked: Gorkys, Flowers, pitching depth…Etc.. Just let him go. We have a possible true #1 almost here in Tommy Hanson. I would rather REALLY contend in 2011 than, maybe if all cards are played right, Maybe contend in 2009-2010. As much of a pain it is to say this, I am ready as a fan to let the Phillies and Mets battle it out and get old the next couple of years, only to truly kick Their rear end in 2011-2016. Let’s face facts. We had an amazing run for 15 YEARS The end of the era has been written all over the place the last year or so: No more Braves on TBS, All of the announcing team of 33 years is gone (pouring one out for SKIP) and (Tipping the hat to Pete, “the Professor”) Scheurholz,Cox,Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux at the end. It is time for a new era. It just is on the surface, I am sorry for being such a “Debbie Downer” for my first post.
By Samuel Stiles
November 7, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this
2nd cent: You know what the Braves have done well for 20 years? Scout, Develop, and Smartly evaluate their own players. The problem is, we won the division for 14 years. t is only natural to have a few quasi stinker years after 14 years of brilliance. Have the quasi stinker years, and get GOOD draft picks for those years. Drafting very low from 1992-2006 years has finally caught up to us. The guys we drafted all those years have turned out really well considering their slot. We finally got a good draft slot in 2007 and Ta DAH! Jason Heyward! for 2009: I say, let the young kids play. I say, let Smoltz, Glavine, Chipper have Their Swan Song. They deserve it. Add a couple of veteran pitchers to the pile that are fun to cheer for. But do not, DO NOT trade Escobar. He will be in his prime come 2011. Maybe trade Kelly for Ludwick. That’s it. If we do this, Mark my word, we will be downright awesome in 2011-2020.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 7, 2008 9:29 PM | Link to this
I have to put myself in the shoes of Jake Peavy and ask myself where would I prefer to play. Atlanta or Chicago?
That’s a no brainer.
The back to back N.L. Central division champion Chicago Cubs or the Atlanta Braves, who have not won squat since 2005 and are struggling to stay relevant in their own division behind the WS Champion Phillies, competitive Mets and upstart Marlins.
I’m glad to see that Escobar’s defensive value has been recognized here in this latest blog. He is outstanding with the glove. As far as his offense goes, I prefer to think positive in the belief that Escobar has yet to reach his potential.
The market for starting pitching is deep. Guys like Lowe, Dempster and even the injury prone A.J. Burnett can do as much to help the Braves pitching wise as much as Jake Peavy can during the regular season. They will only cost the Braves Mucho Dinero.The real value that Peavy represents is in the playoffs where he is head and shoulders above most pitchers. But, the Braves are in no shape to be thinking about the playoffs right about now.
Nobody want’s to say it. The big bad dirty word.
REBUILDING.
The Braves prefer to say that they are trying to win each and every season. Except that the recent results don’t support that argument. I think that some people have lost sight of the fact that the division run from 1991 to 2005 started with player development which was then augmented with astute trades for solid veteran defensive players who could swing the bat.
The farm system has always been the best answer and the next wave of talent is coming. I have been ambivalent right from the start in my concern about Jake Peavy and the amount of player cost required to acquire the Cy Young winner.
Admittedly, if the Cubs win this thing, I will feel a sense of relief more than anything else. Simply because I don’t have any expectation of winning in 2009. I believe the Braves are at least two seasons away from being competitive again and I don’t think that Jake Peavy is willing to wait that long.
By Samuel Stiles
November 7, 2008 9:29 PM | Link to this
For the longtime readers: I…kinda like Whitesnake. I am a musician myself and happened to play a show in Nashville with a band that featured the son of David Coverdale (Lead singer for Whitesnake) Afterwards, we partied in his mansion. Good times were had by all. and… I …kinda wanted Rocco Baldelli. I was really rooting for him this post season. seems like a good dude to cheer for.
By Bama
November 7, 2008 9:30 PM | Link to this
Robert Padres didn’t want Schafer they wanted Gorkys…What does that tell you about Schafer?
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 9:30 PM | Link to this
There was a theory once that a minor league player needed so many AB’s or innings pitched in the minors, to develop.
Does anybody know anything about that?
As for SS, I think you just take Greene on, and he’s your backup in case Lillibridge can’t cut it in the spring. I think Lillibridge can do the job and do it well defensively, but he needs to show he can not be a liability with the bat.
I know it’s important to have a solid keystone combo. Get two guys who can field, put them together in the spring, and stick with them.
Let’s not lose out on Peavy or Ludwick over our good (not great) middle infielders.
Ludwick and Prado, or KJ and ??? (Ibanez, Willingham, etc)
Utah 20, OKC 10
By Lew
November 7, 2008 9:32 PM | Link to this
Make the offer and tell them if they like the Cubs offer better than to take it and be done with the whole situation. I realize the game has to be played, but sometimes, there’s just got to be a limit to it all.
Obviously we have players good enough to get Peavy. If they are good enough for him, then they’re good enough to get a couple somewhat lesser pitchers. Make a deal with the White Sox for Vasquez and Swisher. Make another deal and get Olsen from the Marlins. This whole situation is getting to be like the election. Time for it all to end.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 7, 2008 9:37 PM | Link to this
Anybody ever read the comments at the end of the articles on the “Official Site”? Yikes!
By Lew
November 7, 2008 9:38 PM | Link to this
Bama-It tells me that playing in Petco Park, the Padres would rather have someone with exceptional speed and outfield range and don’t care as much about Schafer’s power potential which would be somewhat negated by the spacious confines.
By Foot Fetish
November 7, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this
Forget Peavy! Just go to Google and enter “Toe Sucking Dick Morris”. Now I know that Bill Kristol has a myriad of sites dedicated to him but I was amazed by the sites for Mr Big Toe. Why that wimp Colmes doesn’t hit him with this when he is being beaten down is mind boggling. Alan, Fight Back! Call him a prostitute mongering pervert. That will shut him up. “I did not have sex with the foot of that woman.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 9:43 PM | Link to this
Stiles Hey, admitting is the first step in the recovery process…
:-)
Also, the Braves have never been a team to give up before the season starts. If it were my call, I would try to win in 2009, but not to the degree of giving up Escobar or Schafer or any of the untouchables, but I am NOT the Braves. They do not think the way some of us do.
Coach You know that the “R” word is not used in the Braves vocabulary.
To be honest, I have probably heard songs from Whitesnake, but I can’t say I could list even one.
Salty Dawg I don’t think we have to worry about Frank Wren caving in. He might throw in another lower level guy, to push this deal over the top, but I don’t see him caving in.
How I would love to see him make a similar offer to the Giants for Matt Cain, to see if that gets the Padres off the dime. Heck I would rather have Cain, all else being equal. I think he will win more games over the next 10 years on a good team than Peavy will. Just a guess…
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 9:43 PM | Link to this
UT 33, OKC 15
By Joe M.
November 7, 2008 9:46 PM | Link to this
Anyone besides me glad that Coach is not General Manager of the Atlanta Braves? That team would really suck.
By Bama
November 7, 2008 9:46 PM | Link to this
Lew - I think you’re right on!! But some may think other wise. I’d like to keep both.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 9:47 PM | Link to this
Lew: You saw Lillibridge and Schafer in the spring. What is your honest assessment of their chances of starting for the Braves in ‘09? Am I being too overly optimistic about Lilly?
By BravesFan79
November 7, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this
Great taste in shows DOB….. couldnt agree more on the realness of the Shield… and Sons is a close 2nd. Those are the only 2 series i even follow anymore.
And loosing Escobar makes me sick…….. this sucks…. man our infiled is gonna be so WEAK whenever Chipper goes on his yearly 15 or so day stint on the DL, and on Chippers off days.
Im having flashbacks to woodcrap and orr, thorman starting game after game while chipper was hurt in 2007, and us freefalling from 10 games over .500.
Well we might as well forget about signing Hampton back, the dude is GUARNTEED to give up at least 3 runs every 5 innings… and well have a offense that might score half that in the same time.
Forget about resigning Hampton… and focus on keeping Ohman!!
By Steve from OH
November 7, 2008 9:56 PM | Link to this
Coach, yes, of course if Peavy had a choice, he’d pick Chicago over Atlanta. But that’s not his choice. His choice is the team with the best offer vs. San Diego. If Atlanta has the best offer, then his desire to play in Chicago is irrelevant. Atlanta vs. S.D.? That’s a no-brainer: Atlanta. If Wren and Towers agree to a deal, Peavy will be a Brave in ‘09. Count on it. He will not refuse a deal to Atlanta.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 9:58 PM | Link to this
Foot Nothing wrong with a good toe, now and then…
By Lew
November 7, 2008 10:01 PM | Link to this
Wayne-Lillibridge has not impressed me in the least. Not during the Spring, not during the season and not when I saw him play while in a game in Toronto this summer when I was one row away from 3B (about as up close as you’ll ever see anyone play).
Schafer, on the other hand impressed the hell out of me. The kid is almost Andruw good in center field, can run quite well and is likely to be a pretty good hitter. Yes, I would think he’s about ready for Prime Time.
By Appropriate Name For This Guy
November 7, 2008 10:03 PM | Link to this
Foot Fetish, Thanks for the Dick Morris tip. The man is sleeze.
By JC from UT
November 7, 2008 10:16 PM | Link to this
WAYNE: I agree i think FW should bring Geene in as the SS replacement especially if a lower level prospect is included to the 3 previously named players. Greene is good defensively and hits a lot of fly balls that turned into outs in spacious Petco that my either leave the yard at the Ted or go off the wall. Greene’s arm is not equal to Yunels but his range is close. Or just take Greene back in the trade and try to flip him to ST.Louis or Boston who have shown interest in him.
By Nelson
November 7, 2008 10:23 PM | Link to this
QUESTION
How could we possibly get Ludwick if we deal Yunel for Peavy? Since we don’t won’t trade KJ after trading Yunel.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 10:25 PM | Link to this
JC I hadn’t thought of that “flip Greene” angle. What if we sent him and Blaine Boyer to STL for Ryan Ludwick?? Or substitute another pitcher for Boyer.
Lew: Thanks for the advance scouting report on Lilly and JS (Jordan Schafer replacing John Schuerholz as JS).
Actually, JC, if we take on Greene, then we should be able to give a bit less to the Padres, as we would be helping them w/ some salary relief.
By jed
November 7, 2008 10:28 PM | Link to this
first off, “sweet thing” is one of the greatest van morrison songs ever. truly elegiac. i still get the shivers when i hear it.
i understand the braves prioritizing stability by not wanting to replace SS & 2b in the same season, but omar infante is already an everyday-caliber player. and prado’s every bit as good at 2b as KJ was and has shown he can hit.
either of those guys could replace KJ, and would probably be an upgrade in the short-term. (i think KJ will eventually be a strong hitter but it’s gonna take a while longer.)
at that point, you’re really talking about replacing escobar at SS, which youre going to have to do anyway if you trade him in a deal for peavy. so, considering all this, KJ for Ludwick is not so far-fetched at all. might be a good deal too: i dont see KJ ever hitting 37 HR in a year, and his defense has never impressed.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 10:30 PM | Link to this
At the half, Utah 58, Oklahoma City 29. OKC started off the game with an 8-0 run. Jerry Sloan called a timeout, and then the Jazz went on a 24-2 run.
He must have told them, guys, this is Okla-frickin’-homa. Get after it! (if you know Jerry, you know he as a “colorful” vocabulary)
In Utah the rule is, if you have sensitive ears, don’t sit near the Jazz bench.
By JC from UT
November 7, 2008 10:32 PM | Link to this
If Greene came back in the Peavy deal would that mean KJ could be dealt?
By Doc Holliday
November 7, 2008 10:44 PM | Link to this
Wayne that would be like saying its ok for JF to hit .230 because he can throw lots of people at home and 3B.
It is absurd what you just said. At least thats my opinion. Lilly not only is powerless………but he cant even get a sac fly deep enough.
Braves better get him on steroids quickly if they are planning to start him at SS (just joking of course).
But I accept your proposal……….We will have this conversation again in 3 year………but we might start it again just after the ASG.
By MGL
November 7, 2008 10:51 PM | Link to this
Wayne - I’m with you 100% on the Prado discussion. I really like the kid and think he is a tremendous asset as a bench player. Same with Infante to a slightly lesser extent. I just don’t see Prado as a starting infielder at this point.
You brought up what I think is the most telling point, that is it has been reported that about 10 teams have asked about the availability of KJ. I have not heard of a single team asking about Prado who would be cheaper for a couple of years. I’m sure that if the professional scouts and management of other teams thought as much of Prado as Doc and others, we would have heard about some demand in the press.
By Doc Holliday
November 7, 2008 10:53 PM | Link to this
Wayne………in a close game………..bottom of the 9th, bottom of the order coming up………would you rather watch hit:
Kotchman, Infante/Prado and a PH
Kotchman, Lilly and a PH
I dont really care what Prado and Lilly did in the minors………the difference between the 2 at the plate in the bigs is as huge as it would be comparing Prado to Chipper.
If Prado is not the answer because of his range/arm…….Lilly aint the answer either, period (for obvious reasons).
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 11:05 PM | Link to this
Doc Your on..
If you watch them hit, Lillibridge is not a slap hitter. Prado does not have a power swing, he goes to the right side a lot, and that plus his higher BA this past year accounts for his high SLG % last year for a guy who doesn’t hit homers. Can he hit that high consistently? If he can, then I would trade KJ for Ludwick.
If you watch Lillibridge hit, he has a swing that could (I say could, cause he could just as easily flop) account for more power. Similar build to guys like Brian Roberts and Mark Ellis. Of Lillibridge’s 16 hits this year, half were for extra bases. 24 of Prado’s 73 hits went for extra bases. I know that is not scientific, but I would argue all night that Lillibridge definitely has more of a power swing than Prado.
Will it ever develop into real numbers? Who knows.
Let’s try to revisit this subject next summer, mid July. Hey, if I am wrong, I am big enough to definitely admit it. I am wrong often, ask my wife!
:-)
By Doc Holliday
November 7, 2008 11:12 PM | Link to this
Could anyone tell me exactly why should we trade for Greene in Peavys package? He aint an upgrade when compared to Lilly. I rather get something else………and play Lilly than Greene.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 11:16 PM | Link to this
Doc To answer your question, I want Prado in 2008 batting in the ninth over Lillibridge. Definitely, no doubt about it.
What I am talking about is potential. Like I stated in my last post, he might never get there, but I think if you asked a lot of top baseball people the ceiling for Prado vs Lillibridge in the year 2011, I think most would say Lillibridge has a much higher ceiling. Not that he will get there, but he could.
Prado, I think is destined to be a utility infielder. I hope he does better, as I love to watch these kids excel and prove us fans wrong. Right now, my gut tells me no.
Lillibridge didn’t have a good start this past season, hitting 200. But, go back and check Prado’s first year. Not a world beater either. 262 average, which is OK, but 3 of 11 hits went for extra bases.
Let’s give him another 100 AB’s in the majors before we write him off. Also, lets have Prado get in another 200 AB’s to see if he can maintain his current pace.
Last year was too small of a sample for both players, to make statemnts about comparing them to each other. You can’t write off a guy in 80 AB’s.
By Doc Holliday
November 7, 2008 11:20 PM | Link to this
Wayne
You are right on your comments last post. To answer that, I would say, yes, Prado can duplicate his performance, and even get better. He is not a streaky guy, he is more of a constant guy. Time will tell.
Lilly, yes, he could hit for more power, he takes big swings, the change could happen real quick or it could take forever………IMO, it will take more than a year, he is not ready for 2009. But I clearly get your point, once he gains some weigh and gets more major league ABs, he could be a very complete guy.
By Marty
November 7, 2008 11:21 PM | Link to this
No one will want to take Greene off our hands, much as the Padres haven’t been able to trade him, because he’s overpriced and undergood.
By Doc Holliday
November 7, 2008 11:22 PM | Link to this
Guess now we are on the same page Wayne
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 11:24 PM | Link to this
Khalil Greene strikes out too much, hits for a low average, and doesn’t walk enough. He is a very good defensive SS. He averages about 19 HR’s pro-rated over a full season. Average for his career is 248. Will he hit like he did in 2008, or 2007? If he gets his career rejuvinated, I suspect he will hit more like 2007.
Like I said earlier today, if you have a guy like Greene, he can be your insurance if Lillibridge doesn’t show off big time in the spring.
Or, you could flip him to STL and add in someone like Boyer or Campillo to try for Ludwick.
Ultimately, it doesn’t mean a hill of beans what any of us think, it is what Frank Wren and the Braves org thinks that counts.
All this blogging is just academic.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 11:28 PM | Link to this
Doc Are we the only ones here tonight???
Jazz are going to be 5-0 in a minute or so.
By Alan
November 7, 2008 11:35 PM | Link to this
DOB, great job as always. Thanks. Much as I’d love to get Peavy, I would hate to give up Escobar, who is on the cusp of superstardom and still a young player. I’d rather give up KJ, but I’d even be reluctant to do that. He’s also young — just approaching his prime. If Escobar goes, then what to do at SS? Renteria? I doubt it. Way past his prime, and a liability on defense. Orlando Cabrera also is past his prime. Make a trade for JJ Hardy? For whom? More minor league prospects? The more I think about it, the more I hope the Braves lose out on Peavy, keep their talented middle infielders and turn their attention to free agent pitchers. I’m not in favor of trading KJ for Ludwick, who had a terrific year in ‘08, but what had he done before that? Not very much on the major league level. And he’s no kid. He turned 30 during this past season. The Braves need to make improvements, for sure, but I don’t believe they’re going to help themselves by trading away a good, young major league player like Escobar or Johnson — or both.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 11:39 PM | Link to this
Marty I am not sure you can really say at this point that nobody would take Greene, as the rumors say 3-4 teams are asking about him.
I suspect the early interest is tied to the fact that the Padres are trying to get $ back from him for breaking his hand last summer. Some teams might be hoping to get him for next to nothing, with some salary relief thrown in.
I suspect the Padres might also be holding off on doing anything with him, until they are certain he couldn’t be used as part of a Peavy deal. Would be smart of them to be patient with him at this point, in case they worked up a deal for Peavy that using him helped to seal the deal.
It has been stated the Braves are not interested in him, but heck, who really knows what they are discussing.
I am a salesman. You can always sell something. If you are having a hard time selling (trading) a player, then the obvious problem is you are asking for too much in return. Gotta get the price right first.
If you truly can’t sell something, then you just throw it away. If he ends up with the Braves it will be because putting him in the deal was part of what made it work for BOTH sides.
So, to say we couldn’t get anybody to take him, is a bit premature.
By Johnny B
November 7, 2008 11:43 PM | Link to this
Great work as usual DOB!
Still would like to get Peavy but I, like everyone else wish it would happen soon. Hopefully before FAs can begin negotiating with other teams.
I wouldn’t mind seeing Greene come over in the trade. Dude strikes out a lot but he does hit the ball hard and plays tolerable defense. A change from Safeco might do him a ton of good…And as stated earlier we could flip him possibly later.
DOB the thoughts of acquiring Hardy is intriguing… Always thought the dude played tough against us. What kind of money is he making and what do you think it would take to get him?
What ever happened to Benson who the Mets traded away a couple of years ago? I know he was injured ( elbow?) But I haven’t heard his name in sometime. Always thought he had good stuff and would develop into a top of the type rotation guy.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 11:44 PM | Link to this
MGL I remember a fine SS for the Baltimore Orioles back BEFORE Cal Ripken Jr came along. He struggled to hit 200, but was an excellent defensive SS. They won big with him.
SS’s name was Mark Belanger. I think he passed away a few years back, but he was very good.
These days, more teams are not willing to carry a weak hitting SS. I understand the logic. But, a truly excellent SS can save a lot of runs too.
Will Lilly ever be that good? Who the heck knows. Lew says he didn’t impress him. Every time I have seen him, I have always thought that there was some real potential there.
Who knows…..time will tell.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 11:51 PM | Link to this
Alan The story goes that Ludwick has experienced quite a few really bad injuries. I think getting a guy like that is a big gamble, but it could pay off huge, if he remains healthy.
Sometimes you gotta roll the dice with a big potential player. I agree on the Peavy thing. I will be happy if we get him, even if we have to deal Escobar, but if we don’t, I will be OK with that too.
To be honest, I don’t know that KJ or Escobar will ever get better than they were in 2008. I hope they do, but who knows???
By Marty
November 7, 2008 11:56 PM | Link to this
Wayne - As I recall, the Padres have tried to move Greene in the past without success, due to the amount he was owed and his altogether unsatisfactory hitting. Maybe with just one year left on his contract they’d have a shot — I don’t know. I can’t see the Braves taking him in a deal, though, given that they really don’t have a need for a $6.5M shortstop who can’t hit. We can pay Lillibridge $380k if we wanted that.
By AndyA
November 8, 2008 12:02 AM | Link to this
Coach,
Rebuilding is a dirty word, especially for a team that was picked by more than one “expert” to contend for the WS this past year. Obviously, no one could have predicted what injuries and unfulfilled expectations would do to the potential of this team, but that doesn’t change that this was a very talented team that didn’t quite pan out the way many thought it would. Now, we all know that Huddy, Smoltz, Hampton, and Glavine, all members of the assumed starting rotation last year aren’t sure things this year (kinda sad that of the four, Hampton seems the most likely, dependable option right now), but JJ and Campillo will return. With Hanson so close, and FW searching for another proven starter (assuming the Peavy saga ends with him in ATL), that leaves the Braves very close to being stronger than they were last year to start the season. There are holes to fill, no doubt, but if FW can fill the three holes he’s pledged to fill(2 starters, 1 power OF), do you really think rebuilding is necessary? If you have a small leak in the boat, you don’t start rebuilding the boat…you first try to plug the leak. Only if that doesn’t work do you scrap the plug and take more drastic measures. Pardon the metaphor, but I’m not ready to start swimming just yet. And besides, it’s not like the Braves are exactly a group of grizzled veterans that have worn out their welcome. Chipper is the only regular over 26…what are they supposed to rebuild with, 22 yr olds? That being said, I’d argue rebuilding is what the Braves have been doing for the last three years, which is why they have young talent both on the big league club and in the minors. Of course, that’s just my opinion.
By Andrew
November 8, 2008 12:04 AM | Link to this
Besides talking Ludwick, who else do you guys see the braves going after for the power hitting outfielder??
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 12:09 AM | Link to this
Just got back from seeing James McMurtry put on a terrific show (as usual) at the Red Light. Every time I see that dude play, I come away thinking, how is this guy not a huge star? But I’m glad he’s not. Because we couldn’t see him play in a little place that holds about 250 people if he was….
DOC HOLLIDAY, I’ve said a few times here the last couple of days — Braves have no interest in taking Greene. He will NOT be the Braves’ shortstop in 2009. Don’t worry about that another minute, bro.
By Wayne
November 8, 2008 12:11 AM | Link to this
Andrew I think it is very possible that we will be extremely surprised with who the Braves end up getting for the outfield, if they don’t succeed in getting together with the Cards on Ludwick.
I like the kid in Colorado, Spilborghs, but he isn’t the power hitter we are looking for. I really am not thrilled with the FA’s that are available, as most are poor defensively.
By Andrew
November 8, 2008 12:19 AM | Link to this
I wouldnt mind Mags if he wouldnt cost us alot, burrell is prob. to pricey for his age and performance. Dunn would be perfect.
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 12:19 AM | Link to this
DOB Any chance that Wren would draw a line in the proverbial sand and tell Towers, “here is what we are offering, take it or leave it by the end of the week”?Salty Dawg
Not this soon. Maybe the proverbial line in the sand at Winter Meetings, but I don’t think that’ll be necessary. I really think it’ll be done inside of two weeks, maybe one (he says, in a tone that doesn’t portray great conviction).
By uga-brave
November 8, 2008 12:23 AM | Link to this
scoots,
please do not throw up in your cheerios.
two years ago i called out french’s faults.
i really think lillibridge given the chance could be more then servicable.
i like the guy, quick stroke, decent power, good hands, and i would be pretty sure the guy could take 35-45 bases.
he does have big ears though.
lots of you are sold on escobar after a year & 1/2
for all the old school i give you andres thomas.
YUNEL ESCOBAR REMINDS ME OF ANDRES THOMAS.
tons of talent, nothing else.
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 12:24 AM | Link to this
How long will a story with the headline that includes “Naked pushups, gunfire and arrests” be the top-rated story on our website. I’m guessing at least 48 hours, maybe 72. That’s epic. I think I should make it a goal to get those things all in a story this season. One story.
By Andrew
November 8, 2008 12:26 AM | Link to this
DOB, where is Tim Spooneybarger?
By Wayne
November 8, 2008 12:27 AM | Link to this
DOB I will admit I am a bit out of sync with a lot of the bands you guys like on here. I am more of a traditionalist in my rock and country.
What is McMurtry’s best work (song or two, or album)? How about that other band you saw last weekend, Drive By Truckers?
(I have youtube up on my other window, listening to some BOC.)
By Wayne
November 8, 2008 12:30 AM | Link to this
Damn! I just started a JM video, and if he had short hair and trimmed up his gotee, we could almost be twins!
I play guitar just like he does….. right handed! (actually I dream of being that good, not that I am terrible, but)
By Wayne
November 8, 2008 12:33 AM | Link to this
uga Ain’t nothin wrong with big ears!
By Doc Holliday
November 8, 2008 12:44 AM | Link to this
Thanks for pointing that Greene comment DOB, I can recall you posting that a few times this week, but I have also read some individuals insisting that he could be a good add or a possible one. Now I can go to sleep in peace. See you all later gang.
Lets bring Peavy and anything with him from SD but Greene………some good bench player could do.
By uga-brave
November 8, 2008 12:44 AM | Link to this
DOB,
are you a member of the atlanta track club?
as a fellow runner get ready? my buddy runs the PEACHTREE UNITED METH CHURCH bootcamp.
he is a ex citadel guy and ran a swift 30:27 in 1996 at the peactree.
think about that his number in 1997 was 50.
if you like bill rodgers or pre check out the bill rodgers shop in boston your next time through.
so show up if you want to. the tripple nickles class 5:55 is a runners class.
7 ish’s for six.
so any of you guys want to do a really good boot camp?
look up CHIP OWENS, at peachtree united methodist.
By brian
November 8, 2008 12:49 AM | Link to this
DOB - according to your sources are the Braves dead set against trading Yunel and KJ or are they just not planning on it.
It does look like Yunel would have to be the centerpiece of a Peavy deal. I do not want to lose Yunel but you have to give up something to get Peavy. If Yunel helps us keep Hanson and Heyward while getting us Peavy then he must go.
I still think the Braves would have to think about a KJ to the Cardinals trade. Ludwick’s production is hard to ignore and I think it would be hard for the Braves to find his production and his salary in another trade or on the free agent market.
At the very least, Wren needs to put heat on the Padres by signaling he is willing to deal KJ to the Cards in hopes that Towers gets nervous that he may not be able to obtain Yunel in that case. I don’t think Towers is going to find a young position player as good as Yunel from any of the other contenders.
By uga-brave
November 8, 2008 12:55 AM | Link to this
DOB,
WE meet at e rivers.
for the novices peachtree and peachtree battle.
seven ish for six or seven, cmon.
By Bubdylan
November 8, 2008 12:56 AM | Link to this
DOB (or anyone who knows), suppose a guy were to be keen on James McMurtry’s political groove, but loves his tunes like “Where’d You Hide the Body,” “Lost in the Back Yard,” and “Too Long in the Wasteland.” Can you build a quick, say, 5-10 song playlist so I can custom build an album off iTunes? I know it’s a specific request, but if anyone has the time, it would be much appreciated. The side of James that I like, I REALLY like. (But even with Dylan, the protest stuff fades on me quicker than the more standard balladry. Well, except for “Hattie Carroll”… oh, and “Hurricane”… oh, and….
By Bubdylan
November 8, 2008 1:03 AM | Link to this
I meant to start my 12:56 post “suppose a guy were to NOT be keen on James McMurtry’s political groove, but…”
By uga-brave
November 8, 2008 1:10 AM | Link to this
sorry the 5:55 dudes runners class, we all could break 42.30.
heck i am old, i am always the last one.
By uga-brave
November 8, 2008 1:23 AM | Link to this
if there are really ANY runners on here cmon on down to e rivers.
my guess there are zero,
for all of you that want to get a sub seeded number in the peachtree.
run the chat. roadrunners race.
it is pretty much downhill. fast track.
if you cant break 50, or 45 subseeded, well then walk
By GSUbravesFan
November 8, 2008 1:25 AM | Link to this
DOB Long time reader, first time poster. Love the blog. Any chance you make it down to Statesboro for Georgia Southern Homecoming. I got your ticket.
By uga-brave
November 8, 2008 1:32 AM | Link to this
43 flat is a challenge. but i would bet COACH?
COACH, probablyn has one of those vehicles.
By brad
November 8, 2008 1:53 AM | Link to this
DOB “Would any of them be as good as Escobar? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe one would be better, at least for 2009. You don’t know. But as much as I like Escobar and believe, as the Braves do, that he’s a potential future All-Star, let’s not act as though his offense is irreplaceable. Look at the numbers.”
You in spring traing was the one that talked Esco up so much??? Remeber?? and in APRIL,MAY,JUNE you were saying he had MVP POT. LOL you are just like everyone else, YOU CRAWFISH. What ever makes you look better you say. GEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
By cameron
November 8, 2008 2:15 AM | Link to this
Brad,
Yes and I believe DOB said in that post you just put, that they MAYBE, or MAYBE NOT be as good as Escobar. He didnt say that the person the Braves get WILL be better. He said “MIGHT BE”. And I Agree 100%. Escobar is good, no question, and we all know it. He could be a all*star. For instance look at JJ Hardy as a replacement.
Yunel Escobar -
514 AB, 148 H, 10 HR, 60 RBI, .288 AVG
JJ Hardy -
569 AB, 161 H, 24 HR, 74 RBI, .288 AVG
I know it was his 1st full season, and next year he could be even better. But the point is DOB might have talked up Escobar, and why not, hes an awesome player, right? But in that post he said they could be better than him. Which they COULD be, right? Yes, hes a great player but thier are greater players than him, and the replacement could be just that. Doesnt mean that Escobar isnt good. And I have no doubt in my mind this is what DOB is getting at.
By Patrick
November 8, 2008 2:27 AM | Link to this
Is Peavy really worth losing Yunel, and Jo-Jo plus others? Why not Dempster or Burnett? Lets trade for some power in the outfield.
By jed
November 8, 2008 2:55 AM | Link to this
bubdylan—
check out “fireline road”. great song.
By brad
November 8, 2008 3:30 AM | Link to this
cameron yunel and hardy are not even in the same leauge. people talk about hhw bad KJ is DEF. and how many games he lost us, but think back when he hit the line drive to 2nd with esco on first and he had to dive back in. Ever since then he had a nagging shoulder (not to mention the games he was out).I think he dropped 30 points off his avg. because of that, plus at least 6-8 homers.
By scottbravesfan
November 8, 2008 3:40 AM | Link to this
Any chance the Braves bring back Renteria to play short? They need to bring him or Furcal back to play short if they deal Escobar. If they do that I’m cool with trading him.
By GSUbravesFan
November 8, 2008 3:55 AM | Link to this
DOB mentioned jack wilson as a replacement, anyone think anything about that. from what ive seen he seems like he is a pretty solid SS. just wonder what it would take to get him.
By Yars
November 8, 2008 5:38 AM | Link to this
If we trade Escobar for Peavy, it means KJ aint going nowhere. We’re keeping him. Perhaps we could then convince the Cards that Prado would make a mighty fine everyday 2B for their team. Prado, & a decent minor league player for Ludwick. now playing: cities in dust by siouxsie & the banshees.
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 6:12 AM | Link to this
Bubdylan, ask me again in a few hours, and I’ll do that McMurtry list for you. Gotta catch an early morning flight to PHX right now….
DOB, where is Tim Spooneybarger?Andrew
God only knows, Andrew. Spooney, if you’re out there, or any of your friends are, then please help Andrew by giving us an update on your whereabouts.
By TommyP
November 8, 2008 6:20 AM | Link to this
Lew: Olsen would be 1 guy I’d imagine just isn’t on the Braves’ radar.
Lump him in the Manny group that won’t play here.
By RedandBlack
November 8, 2008 6:41 AM | Link to this
The Braves simply can NOT trade Escobar. His offensive production is second to Chipper and McCann. Good hitters need good hitters around them in the batting order to protect them. Tex got traded, and then Chipper’s average went down. If Escobar is traded then there is only Chipper and McCann as PROVEN producers. Trade Francouer and K.Johnson plus the bag of prospects for Peavy, but DO NOT TRADE ESCOBAR or Hanson.
Depleting your offensive producers before adding to them makes no sense toward ultimately achieving success as World Series Champions. Yes, the Braves need pitching badly. However, the Braves have to score runs to win. Trading Escobar is a losing proposition for the Braves. Keeping Escobar and signing Renteria or Furcal is a winning formula. Then, go get some pitching or grow the young guys up and save some moolah. Go Braves. Go Dogs!!!
By Marty
November 8, 2008 7:16 AM | Link to this
Escobar is not comparable offensively to Chipper and McCann at this time, nor is he the great offensive player that some of you seem to think he is. Sorry, folks, but it’s just not. Will it be someday? Possibly. But if anyone here can predict that, I don’t know why you’re sitting here blogging and not out there picking winning lottery numbers. I like Yunel, but he’s good at this time, not great, and he seems to still have an attitude problem of sorts. If we have to trade him to get a true ace pitcher, I’m in favor of it.
It’s funny to me how some of the people on this blog talk about how great Yunel is based on a little over one full season’s worth of numbers, while at the same time questioning whether Ludwick is the real deal, because, after all, he only had one season of success. Nevermind that Ludwick’s major-league success last season was on par with his track record coming up — it MUST be a fluke because he’s old. Well, Yunel isn’t quite as old, but he’s no spring chicken either, and his track record in the minors suggests that he will be a good, but not great, major-league player. Therefore, if you can find someone willing to trade you a guy who has already won a Cy Young award for Yunel, I think you take that without question.
And on that note, have a great week, folks — I’m off for the airport myself, to catch a plane so that I can get on a cruise ship. Man, do I need it.
By Braveheart
November 8, 2008 7:29 AM | Link to this
Would any of them be as good as Escobar? Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe one would be better, at least for 2009. You don’t know. But as much as I like Escobar and believe, as the Braves do, that he’s a potential future All-Star, let’s not act as though his offense is irreplaceable. Look at the numbers.
Since his arrival in early June 2007,
Escobar’s .303 AVG is good for 5th amongst all MLB SS. The only ones better are Hanley, Guzman, Young, Jeter.
Escobar’s .373 obp is good for 2nd amongst all MLB SS. The only one better is Hanley.
Escobar’s .793 ops is good for 6th amongst all MLB SS. The only ones better are Hanley, Guzman, Rollins, Tulo, Reyes.
Since his arrival, offensively, Escobar has been better than Jeter, Young, Hardy, Drew, Tejada, Furcal, Renteria, Eckstein, Theriot, Bartlett, Cabrera. And Escobar is a better defender than just about all of them as well.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 8, 2008 7:49 AM | Link to this
Braveheart, thanks for providing those stats. I would still include Escobar if it meant getting Peavy. Of course, that’s assuming that Bravos have a back-up plan, which they do, if they trade Escobar.
I have to admit, I didn’t realize Escobar ranked so high. It is a short sample size, in my opinion, but still impressive.
By used cars
November 8, 2008 8:11 AM | Link to this
Would we be better to get off the fixation with Peavy, trade KJ and Parr and a low prospect for Ludwick. Then go after Lowe or Dempster as a free agent. After that, let’s revisit KC and Dayton Moore. Maybe a package of Flowers, Locke and Medlen could get us Grienke. I would like to keep Escobar in the fold if possible and I don’t like these bidding wars like we may get into for Peavy. It didn’t work out great with Tex and I’m just not excited about giving 3 important young pieces of our future for one pitcher. Especially one whose greatness is at least partially a creation of the park he pitches in. Sort of the pitching version of Matt Holliday. He’s very good, but maybe not the great pitcher worth giving those guys up for.
By Kris in NC
November 8, 2008 8:21 AM | Link to this
At least we know Wren is not going to give up Hanson or Heyward, he has made that very clear to Kevin Towers. It seems Towers is thick headed.
If giving up Yunel, Morton and Gorkys to get Peavy, then go for it Frank. Pull the trigger so Frank can get on with the other business at hand, getting us another starter and a power hitting LF’er. Then finding us a SS that can take over for Yunel.
I did follow what you said DOB. Who knows what the Marlins want for Scott Olsen. We all know Olsen has an attitude problem but the Braves have dealt with those issues before with the likes of Gary Sheffield.
Who do you all think Wren will go after for the 2nd starter, power hitting LF’er and if we need another SS? My choices are AJ Burnett, Raul Ibanez and they trade for JJ Hardy.
By TBraveFan
November 8, 2008 8:27 AM | Link to this
Re Spooney Last I heard he was in a band called Mad Ink and was still a free agent.
By Efrim
November 8, 2008 8:27 AM | Link to this
Ken Rosenthal has a new article up:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8770300/Value-of-Holliday,-Atkins-questioned
The Padres are still weighing offers for right-hander Jake Peavy, and on Friday discussed the possibility of keeping the pitcher if they fail to receive a satisfactory proposal, according to a major league source. The Braves, after weeks of discussions, are growing impatient, another source said, and soon might push for a resolution. The Braves and Cubs remain the front-runners, with the Yankees and Dodgers on the backburner. …
Yea, whatever. Last ditch effort to get more. I thought the train has left the station? Anyway, another pretty interesting part of that article was the Atkins/Holliday rumors. I think Holliday will eventually get dealt and I am pretty interested to see how he fares outside of Coors Field. Don’t get me wrong, I still think he is a strong offensive player. But I don’t think he is as good as people think. As far as Atkins goes, I wouldn’t go near him. Sub-standard defense and an overrated offensive game.
I also would love it if the Braves went after Edwin Jackson. I think he would be a better option than Scott Olsen, whose K rate has been decreasing, as well as his overall stuff. But Jackson would probably cost more, so maybe Olsen would be the better option.
By richbrave
November 8, 2008 8:48 AM | Link to this
Regarding ESCOBAR. The BRAVES management must know something negative about YUNEL’s character. A lot of these CUBAN players who defect are really coddled and treated as heros in their own country. Some of them really get a warped sense of values there which don’t quite jibe here. Oh the money’s easy enough. Its more than that, and its a disease I personally believe our starting SS suffers from.
If this young man ever develops big, he’s gonna’ want a big market to play in. If the BRAVES will throw him under the PEAVY express, they may see the same thing. Those fits of anger and outbursts which are all about ME and supposedly cured may not be. Its all in his head like CHARLIE MORTON ‘cause both of them have the physical tools to excel on the ML level.
By JasonInFL
November 8, 2008 8:55 AM | Link to this
DOB, you like Fleetwood Mac at all?
By Dadgum
November 8, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this
DOB…..agree with your posts and blog story completely. Well Almost. Can’t see where Wren would not move KJ for fear of “starting over”. I think you like me(and a helluva lot of others) understand that Prado would be an upgrade at 2nd. However, everytime I read any story on the subject it is always we aren’t trading our middle infield.
Hey it ain’t like Prado has never played with the Braves before. Wren’s posturing on teh subject makes absolutely no sense to me. Having seen Kelly Johnson for two years now at 2nd I think it is obvious he has a great swing (so did LaRoche)but not real sure he will ever be more than serviceable. Am I missing something? I mean I would hate to back off a trade for a significant improvement in our ball club just for the sake of keeping KJ at 2nd. Tell me Wren isn’t serious with his stance and that he is just not going to tip his hand.
Rock on…..
By Lew
November 8, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this
TommyP-I would have thought the same about Olsen, but it has been pretty widely talked about on the blog the past couple days and DOB has not disavowed the notion (in fact I think he was the one who mentioned their interest).
Personally, if we were to do a deal with the Marlins, I’d rather give up a chunk of the Farm for Ricky Nolasco. Kid has had his surgery and is coming in to his own. He had an almost 4-1 K to BB rate last season. I would rather have him than Peavy and doubt he would cost as much.
UGABRave-Dude, Wall Street is starting to affect that superior UGA intellect, my Good Dawg Fan. Yunel the same as Andres Thomas? If I were you, I’d stay out of HIgh Rise buildings. I’m afraid you might jump. We wouldn’t want that.
By Lew
November 8, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this
Wayne-For the DBT-Check out Southern Rock Opera or Decoration Day (DOB printed the song Sinkhole from that album earlier this week). Those two are my favorites, though I’m not quite their fan that DOB is.
By Braveheart
November 8, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this
A lot of these CUBAN players who defect are really coddled and treated as heros in their own country. Some of them really get a warped sense of values there which don’t quite jibe here. Oh the money’s easy enough. Its more than that, and its a disease I personally believe our starting SS suffers from.
What Escobar is has nothing to with where he is from. It’s him. Brayan was his best friend and from the same exact Buena Vista neighborhood in Havana. From what they say, Brayan is the funnest, most gregarious guy around. Escobar most certainly is not. Of course, Escobar’s meaner edge has made him more fit than Brayan and has made him better at baseball than Brayan. Maybe a little less time cracking jokes, laughing, eating, waving to the fans and making sure everyone loves you by Brayan would have done him a world of good. Brayan wants to be loved. Escobar wants to be feared.
And if we’re talking about coddling, is there anyone more coddled than the suburban dudes that fill this team? I mean, really, aren’t we all in extreme danger of suffering an overdose from all of the hunting, fishing, golfing, Scripture quoting, high school sweetheart marrying Johnny All American stories told about these boys? Must it always be pleasantville? Gimme the jerk. Spare me the circle jerk.
By JasonInFL
November 8, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this
Lew, are you serious…you would rather have Ricky Nolasco than Jake Peavy? I like Nolasco as well, and think he has great potential, but over Jake Peavy? I know we are all sick of how long this has drawn out, but let’s not start putting the Ricky Nolasco’s of the world in the same category as Jake Peavy!!
By john10
November 8, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this
Spooneybarger pitched for the Orioles’ NY Penn league team in ‘08, but then got hurt. He’s now a minor league free agent.
By Jack G
November 8, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this
Towers is smarter than Wrenn, and he is going to pick the Braves pocket. Wrenn is going to follow the advice of Cox and give away the store. Having said that, the braves need to go for free agents and not trades where you give away the future. Just leave something for the new manager and coaches after Cox leaves and Cox should already be gone along with his buddies Terry and Roger. It does NOT matter who we get as long as cox and crew are there. 2009 is going to be a repeat of 2008
By morris
November 8, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this
Jake Peavy a.ka. strained elbow peavy will be having arm surgery in the next 18 months. The braves organization just loves trading for pitchers with arm problems. It seems to be the new m.o. in the braves front office. Both gonzalez and soriano had ” strained elbows” just prior to coming to Atlanta. The only difference was we gave up nothing to get those two guys but Peavy will come at a steep price. I guess he can take Hamptons place as the new high priced pitcher that produces nothing.
By Jack G
November 8, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this
morris
AMEN
By Salty Dawg
November 8, 2008 10:22 AM | Link to this
richbrave
Regarding ESCOBAR. The BRAVES management must know something negative about YUNEL’s character. A lot of these CUBAN players who defect are really coddled and treated as heros in their own country. Some of them really get a warped sense of values there which don’t quite jibe here. Oh the money’s easy enough. Its more than that, and its a disease I personally believe our starting SS suffers from.
I wouldn’t read that far into Escobar’s character. What you see as something negative, a lot of people (myself included) see as passion for the game and winning. It just needs to be tempered. Has he totally gotten his emotions under control? No. Has he improved drastically from a couple years ago? Absolutely. But it’s not any different than you see from managers who argue balls & strikes or even many other players. He just has to learn to supress his emotions during the game. It’s not an easy thing to do when you are a competitive person. At least he hasn’t yet been arrested, indicted, convicted or believed to be guilty of something illegal like many of his co-workers. That’s something at least.
And as far as Cubans whose values don’t jibe here, that’s just laughable. There are a hell of a lot of people here, pro athletes or not, with some pretty effed up values. Yes, baseball players are idolized there. I guess we Americans don’t idolize anyone do we? Oh wait, actors, athletes, musicians, politicians, etc.
By Leah M.
November 8, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this
Andrew - This may answer your question: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Spooneybarger]
By TexasBrave
November 8, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this
DOB any possiblity of getting a third team involved in getting the Padres their needed SS? Do you think they would be amendible to getting perhaps one of the other SS in the list you mentioned in your story? Perhaps Wren could do some wheeling and dealing to get one of them before the Peavy trade, then evaluate which one the Braves want to keep and which one to ship.
By Bill
November 8, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this
My head is hurting from all this Peavy talk. Frank Wrenn should tell SD, they have 72hrs. If something can’t get done, move on. It might be best that the Braves not do this trade. There’s others that can be had and time is not on the Braves side. I know it’s not best to rush into things but the Braves need so much, they could miss out on other trades.
By brian
November 8, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
Braves need to acquire Ludwick for KJ now. If the Padres decide to do the Peavy deal and Escobar is included so be it. Peavy is a unique opportunity to acquire a #1 starter in his prime. We need a slugging LF and Ludwick gives us that along with the versatility of playing all 3 OF positions. The Braves can win starting over with the middle IF but they cannot win without a #1 starter and more hitting in the OF
By used cars
November 8, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this
This is almost as much as talking recruiting in January and spring football in March. I think we might be looking at a minimum of 3 new starters in rotation (Hanson) and 2-4 starters in the field. It’s pretty exciting and knowing that Wren isn’t waiting around for the next class to come along. We put a lot of pressure on Mccann, Frenchie, KJ and Escobar to grow up a be leaders. This next group may be even more talented, but it looks like we are laying the groundwork for them to play roles rather than be the stars to start with.
By Interested Observer
November 8, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this
The more I think about this trade the more I don’t like it. I just don’t want to trade Escobar. You lose not only a solid offensive SS, but one of the best defensive SS’s in the league. Then, you’ll probably have to give up even more good prospects to find a replacement SS that will be no better, and perhaps slightly worse, than Escobar. So you presumably give up Gorkys, Morton, and Locke in the Peavy deal, more prospects in the SS deal, and you still haven’t addressed the 2nd starter or the outfielder needs. I would make Kelly, Gorkys, Morton, and Locke our final offer. If the Pads don’t want it or think the Cubs can beat it, so be it, I have no problem moving on. Although I’m willing to trade those four, I would have no problem keeping them either.
By Lew
November 8, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
Jason-Absolutely, I would rather have Nolasco. For one thing, he’s had his surgery and I am not at all certain that Peavy won’t miss 1-1 1/2 years with TJ surgery. Dude pitched 50 less innings last year over the previous three and missed significant time with elbow issues. He has had arm problems in the past as well and according to almost all experts, has terrible mechanics. With what is being asked for in return, I absolutely stuns me that so many refuse to acknowledge this injury potential.
Nolasco has tons of upside and is a strikeout pitcher with excellent control. He struck out just shy of 300 (walked less than 100) batters in 212 IP (Peavy threw 163). In addition, we wouldn’t lose either Yunel OR KJ in a deal (they have Hanley and Uggla) and would be willing to do the deal primarily for prospects only (this IS the Marlins, after all). He may not compare to Peavy YET.
I’ve never been one of the Jim Jones, er, Peavy faithful. I just see too many warning signs of impending doom with the Dude and the price tag is outrageous. Not to mention, the Dude is shaping up to be a Pre Madonna (how’s that for an expression from the MIB archives?).
Sorry Dude, I’m just not even convinced that Jake Peavy is the way to go and I sure as hell don’t want him dictating how the club is constituted-before he ever even arrives. There ARE other options.
By Mississippi Brave
November 8, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this
Interested Observer, I’m with you. The Padres had Jake Peavy last year and were horrible. If we give up Yunel, we won’t be that much better than the Padres. And in giving up Yunel, we’ve said we wouldn’t also move Kelly. That would prevent us from getting a Ludwick type, which we clearly need (want more of Gregor Blanco in left?). I’m not sold on Ludwick after one year - though it was an incredible year. I just believe we have to develop and grow from within. Even Chipper has said the organization can’t take any more Tex-type trades. Wouldn’t we love to have Matt Harrison back? To this day I can’t stand to see Adam Wainwright pitch - all for one year of J.D. Drew.
By Drew
November 8, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this
DOB
Well done, sir. Excellent blog.
I’d say that you trade Escobar, Hernandez, Morton and one more for Peavy and a prospect. You immediately try to sign Furcal. OR if you sign Furcal before the Peavy deal, 1) it shows Peavy that you’re committed on defense. 2) it takes a premier player off the competition’s team and out of the league.
You make both Peavy and the Pads happy, retain your talent, and immediately improve your team from last year.
Cheers!
By JC from UT
November 8, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this
DOB: How serious is the interest in Scott Olson? What would FW have to give up? If Yunel goes to SD would there be any interest in Macier Izturez from Annahiem? If so what would he cost?
By JasonInFL
November 8, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this
Lew, that’s cool…one of the few times that I have thought you were crazy, but that’s cool! (:
Peavy has about 5 pitchers in baseball in his category, in my opinion, and would give us that true, #1 type ace.
I do understand your concern about his arm, but I am not certain I think Nolasco is any less of an injury risk. Bottom-line, despite how much potential Nolasco has, he may NEVER be Jake Peavy. Peavy, is well, Peavy in his prime. I will take Jake Peavy every day of the week and twice on Sunday…even if it means giving up Escobar and one of our stud OF prospects. Again, in my opinion, it is easier to draft and develop those positions…Andruw, Frenchy (I think he will bounce back and be closer to his first 2 years than last year), Schafer, Heyward, Furcal, Elvis, Escobar, etc. Number 1 type aces the Braves have drafted and developed in the same period…probably Hanson, and, and, and…
By Steve from OH
November 8, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this
Here’s a few tidbits from Joe Sheehan’s latest chat over at BP:
batpig (San Diego): Joe - which of the potential Peavy packages being tossed around do you like the best? An Escobar/Schaffer type deal from the braves (maybe with Hanson), a Kemp/Dejesus/Elbert type deal from the Dodgers, or a Hughes/Kennedy/Jackson type from the Yanks? Or something else?
Joe Sheehan: Looking at those, I’m reminded of the Santana packages that were bandied about a year ago, and how they paled compared to the deal that was made. I think any or all of those would look great to the Padres, but I suspect all are a bit high compared to what will end up happening.
I consider the Braves to be the favorites, but given that Peavy can effectively choose his own location, it’s hard to say where this will end up.
Auggie (Anaheim): Joe, which pitcher impressed you the most in Arizona?
Joe Sheehan: Tommy Hanson. No one else came close. Seeing him first ruined me.
Andy (Kansas City): Lots of rumors floating around centering on a Ryan Ludwick or Matt Holiday or Kelly Johnson trade. Thoughts?
Joe Sheehan: I think if you can get Kelly Johnson for Ryan Ludwick, you do it. He’s a wildly underrated player, and the Cardinals desperately need to lengthen their lineup. They do that by adding a 2B who can hit.
By TennesseePaul
November 8, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this
For now, they see him as possibly part of a dream rotation in 2010 that would include Peavy, another veteran (probably free agent) to be acquired this winter, Tim Hudson, Jair Jurrjens and Hanson.
DOB: Do you think Hudson will agree to the mutual option for 2010 when it is only $12 million?
By Efrim
November 8, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this
I am for the Peavy trade if the bounty includes:
Escobar, Gorkys, Morton and Medlen.
I am against it if it includes:
Escobar, Schafer, Morton, and Locke.
Basically, I don’t want to give up Locke or Schafer. Escobar is going to be in it. Obviously, the Braves feel that getting an ace like Peavy is important enough to give up Escobar. It would be nice to get him without giving up Yunel, but it’s going to happen, so there is nothing we can do about it.
By Dee
November 8, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
It’s so funny that people in baseball circles love Escobar and some of the ATL fans think it’s just a no-brainer to include him in a trade and fill SS with the likes of Lillibridge (who I haven’t given up on), or someone inferior. The point of this trade should be to make us better. On the one hand the rotation would be conceivable better, but after Peavy, there is just JJ that I would be certain is solid.
We may acquire another pitcher as well, but Escobar, Morton, Locke and Schafer is not unfair at all. That actually stings. If SD doesn’t want that, move on so that you can firm up the outfield.
By Efrim
November 8, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this
JasoninFL
Peavy has about 5 pitchers in baseball in his category, in my opinion, and would give us that true, #1 type ace.
I know you addressed this to Lew, but just right off the top of my head, I would rather have Santana, Sabathia, Webb, and Halladay over Peavy. But, yes, I think he is a Top 10 pitcher in baseball. Scary as this sounds, I think Hamels and Lincecum are closing in on those honors as well. Small sample size from both, especially Lincecum, but he is right there.
By robert
November 8, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this
Kris in NC the padres aren’t looking for immediate ready players if they were they wold keep Jake Peavy. They lost 99 games and are getting a big payroll cut they are looking for players down the road not now. They want players that are going to be good later on for when they have a bigger payroll and have a shot at being a contender that’s why I think he will go to the Braves. We are offering young talent that they don’t have to pay that much for now. The Cubs are offering Harden and Marshall(i think its marshall) but those players are going to have to be paid more than Charlie Morton and Hernade.
Personaly i’d rather keep Hernade then Schafer
By THE BEAR
November 8, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this
Take it from a South Florida Braves fan. The Braves do not want Olsen in their clubhouse. If cool and calm Freddie Gonzales can’t manage him why does anyone think Bobby can? The guy is an emotional bag of tricks. Adversity destroys him.
He is best left to someone else. He is available for a very good reason and the Braves don’t need that reason among their young players who will be coming up in the next two or three years.
Just say no to Scott Olsen.
By JasonInFL
November 8, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this
Efrim, can’t argue with the names that you provided…they are all great. My main point is that Peavy is in the discussion…a legit #1. While there are certainly others that can get there, and I am not saying Nolasco can’t, but the fact is Peavy is ALREADY there and has a reasonable (for baseball) contract.
By Steve from OH
November 8, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this
Efrim, I agree with your 11:37. I’m loath to give up Schafer, and I really don’t want to give up Locke (he’s high on my list). If Medlin is included, I’m trying to sell Towers on JoJo if I’m FW. If they want Morton, then the second pitcher needs to be lower-level like Cofield or Rodgers.
But in the end I would be OK with a Yunel/Gorkys/Morton/Medlen deal.
The question then becomes “who is our shortstop?”, which is a tough one to answer. I’m not sold at all on any of our in-house options. We could sign Furcal, but that limits our ability to go fill other needs, like #2 SP and LF. We could trade for a JJ Hardy type, but we’d likely be overpaying for what is a good-not-great player and that again limits our other options.
Personally, I do that deal for Peavy, sign a good SP, and trade for a LF. If (repeat, IF) we can get a solid #2 to go with Peavy (like Derek Lowe, for instance), then we can be open to re-signing Glavine or Hampton to fill the 5 spot, or just give it to Hanson out of ST (which I’m not at all opposed to, but I don’t think the FO is ready to). If we fill all of those needs (specifically, a good LF), then I’m OK with giving ‘ol big ears Lillibridge a shot at starting.
I normally don’t do this, but I’m feeling saucy today so here goes: your 2009 Atlanta Braves:
Schafer CF
KellyJ 2B
Chipper
BMac
LF addition
Kotchman
Frenchy
Lillibridge
Again, if we complete the Peavy deal, I think the #1 priority should be acquiring a good slugging LF. The above lineup has no punch w/o one. Period.
The rotation would look like:
Peavy, Lowe, Jurrjens, (Campillo Hanson/Hampton/Morton/JoJo/Glavine). That looks pretty good to me.
The bullpen would be:
Soriano, Gonzo, Smoltz(?), Acosta, Bennett, (Marek/Medlen/Valdez/Boyer/Carlyle). Again, looks good providing Soriano pulls his head out of his arse and starts pitching like a man.
Sorry to post all that but it’s a slow Saturday…
By Efrim
November 8, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH
Sheehan isn’t the first to say that the Cards should jump all over Johnson for Ludwick.
By BravesFanChris24
November 8, 2008 12:05 PM | Link to this
Interesting tidbit from Minnesota Twins on MLBTradeRumors….
Christensen has sources who suggest that the Twins are also targeting Yunel Escobar and J.J. Hardy in trades. If no deal is made, they could re-sign Nick Punto, who played 61 games at shortstop in 2008.
If the Peavy deal would fall through (I hope not, but hypothetically it does), then would would Twins be willing to give up to get Yunel Escobar and better yet, what could Braves get?
By BayAreaSteve
November 8, 2008 12:05 PM | Link to this
Gimme the jerk. Spare me the circle jerk.
Great line, Braveheart.
Wurlitzer worthy.
Spend some money, you cheap b*******. Save Yunel.
By Steve from OH
November 8, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this
Efrim:
Yep, that’s the general consensus I’ve been reading. Kelly, as of right now, is probably our 3rd best hitter behind Chip and BMac. Can’t afford to lose him if Yunel goes. It cracks me up that the same people who want Martin starting at second (or short, center, pitcher, bench coach, whatever) because he is “better” than Kelly somehow are able to think that he doesn’t have enough trade value to go elsewhere. This team needs Kelly’s bat, period. Gotta score to win.
By Lew
November 8, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this
Jason-Honestly Dude, have you really looked at Peavy’s last year in SD? He only went 10-11. Yes, he pitched for a team that lost 99 games, but then again, the Braves lost 90.
He pitched 50 less innings than the year before (last 3 actually). He pitched in 7 less games than in 07. He struck out 74 less batters. He gave up four more HR in those 50 LESS IP. He has only thrown an average of 6.1 innings per start over his entire career (remember what happens to our bullpen when they go three?). He gives up an average of 1 HR every ten innings-pitching in one of the biggest pitchers’ parks in all of baseball. That would likely go up in Atlanta, especially if the reports of loss of velocity are true.
In his favor are an excellent ERA and WHIP. He has a favorable contract at good money. However, he DOES have an option year (which helps make this a better deal-I think), but Boras is his agent and we all know just why Boras negotiates contracts with option years (see Manny Ramirez and others who opt out or hold the team to ransom).
Sorry Dude, but Peavy worries me considerably. There are indications he may be on track for serious injury problems. Were he to require TJ surgery (and I would NOT rule this out), he will likely miss up to 1 1/2 seasons (1/3 of his contract). Add to this the cost of his acquisition (sure hope y’all realize that replacing Yunel will be much harder that many seem to realize) and I think he may be more expensive than we can afford-or NEED to spend.
I’m thinking that we will not be contenders in 09. The loss of Tim Hudson pretty well saw to that. I’m looking at 2010. However, if Peavy were to go down for surgery in mid 09, then 2010 is shot to hell as well.
Yes, I realize I may be in the minority on this one, but I see to much chance that this deal would bite us in the gluteus maximus. I’m much more willing to forego “an ace” and get two really solid innings eaters and let our own kids develop. Can’t do that if we trade them all for Peavy.
By N Nine
November 8, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this
I’m thinking that we will not be contenders in 09. The loss of Tim Hudson pretty well saw to that. I’m looking at 2010. However, if Peavy were to go down for surgery in mid 09, then 2010 is shot to hell as well LEW
Very rough analysis. 2010 gone to hell w/o Peavy? 09 already done? Thanks for the worst case scenario view
By Steve from OH
November 8, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this
Lew:
I couldn’t care less about Peavy’s win/loss record. Please, please, never cite win/loss records. His velocity hasn’t gone down within the last three years. Boras isn’t his agent, and if he is traded, I would almost guarantee you that his option gets picked up in the process.
I can’t disagree with the rest of it, although it could easily be chalked up to a poor season in lieu of his career numbers. Even though his K/9 etc. are down, they are still excellent. He worries me considerably too, but in my mind all pitchers are significant injury risks. I’d rather take that risk with a pitcher of Peavy’s caliber than one of a lower skill level. Having an ace like Peavy under team control for 5 years cannot be underestimated: even if we don’t win in ‘09, he will be there when our youngsters develop. He is a piece that will move you toward a championship. I’m not at all discounting the negative trends you posted (which are worrisome), but that’s a risk I’m willing to take, I think.
He did pitch well after returning from the DL, for what it’s worth.
Tim Hudson, why did you have to get hurt?
By cooper
November 8, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this
Ludwick could be headed to Colorado for Holliday so the ship may have sailed on this cheap LF option.
I really don’t see how they can lose KJ and Escobar in the same off season.
Unless we replace them with Orlando Hudson at 2b and Furcal at SS (which is too expensive) I don’t think this is a good idea.
By Wayne
November 8, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this
How about Josh Johnson from the Fish? I really don’t think they are going to want to deal Nolasco. They are penny pinchers, but they are not stupid.
Just wondering….
By JasonInFL
November 8, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this
Lew, all valid points. Johan’s stats had gone down for consecutive years before the Mets traded for him as well. I take no stock in Peavy’s won/loss record from last year on a dreadful Padres team. He’s averaged 215.3 innings, 214 Ks, has a career WHIP of 1.18, and can be absolutely dominant. Plus, he is 27 and in his PRIME.
Let’s not forget what started the conversation…you said you would rather have Ricky Nolasco over Jake Peavy…
Again, you make some good points, but you get Jake on a good team (yes, I believe the Braves will be competitive next year and certainly much better than the Padres); he will get better and not worse.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 8, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH The above lineup has no punch w/o one.
It’s got some punch at the start of the year.
By Lew
November 8, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this
N Nine-Worst case scenario? Dude, that’s only part of it. Don’t get me started on what the prognosis might be with some of the proposed replacements for Yunel. However, worst case though it may be, is it unrealistic or totally in error? I think not.
Steve-You’re willing to take the chance for the packages mentioned. I’m not (for the most part). I think that if things went ALL our way (when exactly has THAT happened in recent years?) then it would be an incredible pick up. Maybe I’m wrong on the velocity loss (I really haven’t seen him pitch very much), but there HAVE been reports of this being a fact. No, W-L is not the best indicator, but the rest of the stats-loss of starts, loss of IP, more HR in less IP, a lot less K’s, bothers me-a LOT. I also see WHIP and ERA rising outside of Petco as well.
However, I would rather explore other options. I’ve gone on record saying that I think all things could be dealt with by trading for Javier Vasquez and Nick Swisher and making a can’t refuse offer for Derek Lowe (3 years, $48-52 mil). I’d love Nolasco to join the team, but honestly, the Marlins would be really stupid to give him up without asking for an arm and leg.
Those moves would add two pitchersw who have repeatedly thrown 200+ IP (for YEARS) for 2-3 years (giving time for our own kids to be ready), add the power we need (and I’m one who thinks Frenchy will be back BIG TIME, too), without dumping the middle of your infield or spending a package of prospects like you would for Peavy. It also leaves more than enough cash to re-sign Ohman and Norton, as well as tweaking anything else that needs tweaking later in the year. Cost-benefit and nothing else.
I’d better be careful., The Dark Side is becoming addictive. Nathan-Dad-can I borrow the keys to the Battle Star tonight?
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 8, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this
UGA-Brave, Andres Thomas was a complete bust. Yunel Escobar is anything but that.
Compare the two.
Thomas career BA was .255 along with a 5 to 1 strike out to walk ratio. His career OPS was .550 and he did have a slick glove but nothing close to the bazooka arm that Escobar possesses.
So far, Escobar’s career BA is .303 and his strike out to walk ratio is nearly even at 106 to 86. Escobar’s OPS is .773 and his range/arm and athleticism is superior to that of Andres Thomas.
In fact , I’ll take the blog back to February 23rd 2008 and the REAL DEAL
By Clay
November 8, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this
Am i the only one thinks this is our best idea? Let’s say we have 45 mil to spend this offseason. First before i propose my suggestion i know we might not be able to sign but atlest try then if it doesn’t work we can still have plenty of time to make trades. Sign CC for 6yr 120 mil or 7yr 140…whatever it takes….thats + 20….then trade KJ for Ludwick. Prado takes over 2nd. He will do a fine job there. I dont know the exact figures but it’s pretty much a wash. First off that fixes our power outfield bat and #1 pitcher meaning we just need to sign another pitcher. I say go for Lowe, Burnett, Dempster, Perez. Sign one of them for 15 mil a year. Maybe 4 years. so that’s another + 15 which is + 35 for the offseason. We can then sign Smoltz and Hampton for 5 mil a piece which is +45…and if we cant sign Hampton oh well.
Rotation 1 CC 2 the 2nd FA pitcher we sign…say Lowe 3Jurrjens 4/5Hampton/Campillo/Morton/Hanson/Reyes Lineup 1Schafer/Anderson/Blanco 2Escobar 3Ludwick 4Chipper 5BMac 6Kotchman 7Francoeur 8Prado Is it me or does that make a 1000 times more sense and we only lose KJ
By cooper
November 8, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this
Lew - I am sure many of use would prefer that Liberty bump payroll by 25mm and Wren signs - CC, Burnett, Dunn or Bradley, Hampton, Ohman and Smoltz vs. trading for Peavy and possibly a LF - which will weakens the franchise to some degree.
Apart from tossing (out for trades) guys like BJones, JAnderson, Blanco, JOJO and a few others I would like to hold onto most of our prospects/young guys.
However short of a 25+mm payroll increase I don’t see how the Braves can do the following:
CC - 24mm Burnett - 17mm Dunn - 15mm Hampton - 6mm (with incentives to 8mm) Ohman - 2 mm Smoltz - 3mm (with incentives to 8mm)
67mm in total spend (pre-incentives) plus you need to factor in raises (money out) and Hudson insurance (money in).
So if we take the 45mm coming off the books and add 25mm to it we can keep all our prized prospects, Yunel et al and go deep into the post season.
I would prefer this over doing two trades where we send 4 guys for 1 guy.
Peavy is great and we should want him but I would prefer to buy my team in 09 than trade for it.
By Lew
November 8, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this
Jason-Many here agree with you wholeheartedly. However, many here also think that Khalil Greene and his career .241 BA and low OBP and his $6.5 mil salary, Rafael Furcal and his missed season with back problems and a defensively terrible Playoffs are great options for replacing Yunel.
Many here also think that picking up Coco Crisp, Rocco Baldelli, Ryan Freel and a host of other whatever players were definitely need to be made moves.
Many here have also thought Smoltz would come back and either win a Cy Young or save 55 games again after his fifth surgery at age 42 when there is a strong possibility he won’t even be capable of returning.
Many here think they can re-sign Hampton for $1 mil a year.
Many here actually thought the Braves and Tigers would be in the playoffs, too.
Someone even said at the beginning of the season that Ryan Howard couldn’t possibly sign a long term contract for $10 mil or more a year because of his slow start. We’ll see how THAT goes.
Sorry, but I’ll go with my own analysis. If I’m wrong, we pick up Peavy and he wins 20, then I’ll be as happy as everyone else and admit I was wrong. Don’t think that’s how it will shake out, though.
By richbrave
November 8, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this
SALTY DAWG:
You’ve said your piece. Now go sit in the corner. DISAGREE, DISAGREE, DISAGREE.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 8, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this
The AJC really needs to fix it’s website. Otherwise, I am forced to cut and paste the whole damn article into the blog.
THE REAL DEAL
The heartiest laughter in the early part of Braves camp came when some Braves players and team officials saw a Web site scouting report that characterized Yunel Escobar as a glorified utility infielder who “peaked” as a major-leaguer in 2007.
The rifle-armed Cuban hit .326 with 30 extra-base hits (five homers) in 319 at-bats last season, his first in the majors. It convinced Braves officials he could replace veteran shortstop Edgar Renteria without much dropoff, if any.
Yunel Escobar comes into camp determined to better his game as the Braves’ new shortstop. The 25-year-old Cuban hit .326 last season.
Renteria was traded to Detroit in November. Now the curtain is raised on the Escobar Era, which the Braves expect to be much longer and more illustrious than does the person who wrote that Web site scouting report.
“For me, he could make the All-Star team,” Braves manager Bobby Cox said of Escobar, 25. “He has tremendous hands, range, and a tremendous arm. He’s not going to steal a lot of bases, probably, but he can run.
“He can hit for average, and if he wants to, he can hit for power.”
He was brought to the majors on Memorial Day weekend and hit .344 in 74 games after June 24, including .350 with a .441 on-base percentage and .553 slugging percentage in his final 34 games.
“Escobar is one of the best players I’ve ever seen,” Braves catcher Brian McCann said. “What he did last year was phenomenal. That wasn’t a fluke. He’s the real deal.
“He can make every play on the field. I think next year at this time, everybody will be talking about putting him in the class of [Florida shortstop] Hanley Ramirez and those guys,” McCann added.
Escobar spent much of the winter working out with Renteria in Miami. Four days a week, they hit for two hours in the morning and lifted weights for two hours.
Escobar reported to spring training at 215 pounds, up 12 from last season. His already muscular arms and back are thicker, and he wants to hit more doubles and home runs, and steal more bases (five in ‘07) if he bats leadoff.
“He’s strong,” Braves general manager Frank Wren said. “He looks good.”
Escobar said the winter workouts were intense, that Renteria made sure of it.
“Edgar says, ‘What’s up, bro? You’re good, and you can be better,’ ” said Escobar, explaining how the veteran stressed to keep working on every area of his game, including concentration in the field on every pitch.
Renteria doesn’t make a lot of spectacular plays, but makes all the routine ones. Escobar, like former Braves shortstop Rafael Furcal, made plenty of flashy plays, but occasionally booted a routine grounder or made a poor throw.
“I’m going to be 100 percent concentrated, because I know how important shortstop is for the ballclub,” said Escobar, using bilingual catcher Brayan Pena, a fellow Cuban, to translate for part of an interview Friday.
Escobar answered some questions without aid. He’s working on English (third baseman Chipper Jones said there was no problem communicating on the field).
“I’m going to try to do the same job as Edgar did,” Escobar said. “But in my mind, I’ve got to work harder to be the best player I can be.”
The Braves could miss Renteria’s leadership and selfless approach in the No. 2 spot in the lineup. If they make the playoffs, they might miss his proven performance in pressure-filled situations.
However, Escobar demonstrated a knack for big hits and plays in late innings, albeit not in big-league postseason games. No one who saw it will soon forget how he stole second base in a game at Arizona when All-Star closer Jose Valverde bent over to stretch and briefly took his mind off the baserunner.
“I’m not worried about him at all,” Jones said of Escobar taking over for Renteria. Then he repeated, “At all.”
Teammates are big believers in the quiet, confident Cuban. They have been since that day in June, when Escobar was called from Class AAA Richmond and arrived at Chicago’s Wrigley Field 90 minutes before his first game.
He singled in his first at-bat and hit a winning double in the eighth inning.
In a postgame interview he said: “I’ve always had a lot of confidence in myself. It’s just the game of baseball. … That’s what I came up here to do.”
Hitting coach Terry Pendleton believes he’ll do it for a long time.
“I think he can be a .300 hitter in this league, no doubt in my mind,” Pendleton said. “He can be an Edgar Renteria, possibly with more power. He has a good idea of the strike zone, and he’s aggressive in it.
“He might have to make adjustments this year as [pitchers] make adjustments to him, but he can hit. It showed last year, when he went against some teams a second and third time last year.”
It’s a game, but it’s also serious business for Escobar, who defected from Cuba four years ago. Influential Miamians helped him get his father and younger sister out of Cuba a year ago, and last summer he finally got his mother out.
The family is together in Miami, and Escobar is focused on one thing.
“I knew my opportunity would get here,” he said. “Now I’ve got the opportunity. I want to make the most of it.”
By Lew
November 8, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this
Cooper-I never suggested getting Sabbathia or having thepayroll boosted by $25. I’m dealing in realistic terms and nothing else.
Clay-Dude, mark my words. CC Sabbathia will cost WAY more than $20 mil, a season. Count on it.
By Jeff321
November 8, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this
In other words, Peavy doesn’t care too much about playing for the HOF manager.. He’s just worried about having the stud Yunel around, eh?
I haven’t read blog comments in a while and have no intention of doing so during the off season. So, don’t bother replying right now.
However, I don’t like the idea of getting rid of our talent in another Tex-type trade. And if the Braves “future” hauls a* again.. I’m going to start watching the Marlins/Rays on Directv and let MLB Video stick it.
By Steve from OH
November 8, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this
Lew:
I can’t disagree with you that the negative trends are there (they are; they’re alarming), but what I can say is that they’ve only been there for one season. Because of that, I’m more willing to chalk them up to a down season. Swisher had a down season last year, too (BB% lower, K% higher, lower slash stats, etc) but you’re not writing him off, though. I’d be happy if he was our starting LF next season, provided he’s gotten for a reasonable trade value.
Vazquez, on the other hand, I’d stay away from. I don’t like him at all, and I don’t really want to have to pay him 11.5 MM over the next two seasons either. I agree that we should push hard for Lowe, and Peavy/Lowe/Jurrjens would be a fantastic front end of the rotation for us. Add in Hanson and Hudson (when he returns), and that is a wonderful rotation.
In my mind, the Peavy deal is almost certainly going to happen (he’ll be a Brave), and we can make a push for Lowe. But after we get Peavy we must, must get a good LF. It is imperative. Trading Yunel makes it that much more important. I hope FW has some good ideas, becuase I’ve got nuthin’.
McFann:
Could you elaborate on your last post, please?
By Salty Dawg
November 8, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this
richbrave
You’ve said your piece. Now go sit in the corner. DISAGREE, DISAGREE, DISAGREE.
Actually, I’ve said my peace.
By desertbrave
November 8, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this
Lew,
I’m with you. I agree that Vasquez, Swisher and Lowe would be better than a trade for Jake Peavy, who I have some concerns about as well. We wouldn’t have to give up nearly as much for Vasquez and Swisher, and Derek Lowe wouldn’t cost us anything but money. And we get to keep our prospects and Yunel Escobar. I am so tired of the Peavy thing anyway, and I’m frankly surprised that the package we’ve offered already hasn’t sealed the deal, as it is a much better package than the Cubs are willing to offer. Hopefully he winds up a Cub and we go in another direction entirely. I wish Wren would say here is our offer take it or leave it.
By Joey Devine
November 8, 2008 1:31 PM | Link to this
I told you all that you needed to be careful about trading pitchers…
By JasonInFL
November 8, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this
Lew, well, I am on board with your other analysis. I do think the Braves would find an above average replacement for Escobar, but there is no chance in heck I would have Prado play SS or sign Furcal at what his asking price will be (as you stated mostly because of the injury). I also certainly agree that we can’t rely on The Bearded Icon for much next year, but with his competitiveness; he will probably come back and do something unexpected!
Anyway, I simply think there is no better option, especially when considering payroll and escalating salaries, than to get Peavy to lead our staff for the next 4 years. As I mentioned, I simply feel it is easier to fill in other gaps…having a bona fide #1 is the hardest hole to plug.
By mbatl
November 8, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this
Lew, a lot of those “counting numbers” on Peavy are due to the fact that the Padres had the good sense to conserve him (and Young) once the Padres were out of the race, going to a 6-man rotation for most of the year. Both to protect their proven pitchers and to get a look at some young guys.
He missed 4, maybe 5 starts when he went on the DL in May. And he missed one September start to attend to the birth of his child.
His HR/9 rate was up only compared to his unhittable 2007 season. It was in line with his career numbers, and the same as Johan Santana’s.
After his stint on the DL in ‘08, he came back to pitch to a 2.82 ERA in 115 innings, with 8.3 K/9.
I think we’re all aware that Peavy might get hurt (you’ve seen to that!). But I’m guessing that Wren and the Braves have better handle on the “inevitability” of it than anyone on this blog.
By Clay
November 8, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this
Lew-Dude, mark my words. CC Sabbathia will cost WAY more than $20 mil, a season. Count on it
Not if you give him a 7yr contract….7yr 140…we will see what he gets…
By desertbrave
November 8, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this
Hey all,
I know the Mets and Yankees are both interested in Derek Lowe, but I could swear I’ve seen several articles mentioning that he has no desire to pitch in New York at all. Is that correct?
By Doc Holliday
November 8, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this
According to reports in three different newspapers, St. Louis is a serious player for Holliday, who is widely expected to be dealt before Spring Training. Reports indicate that Ryan Ludwick, coming off a breakout season that may garner him down-ballot MVP votes, would be the centerpiece of any Cardinals package for Holliday.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 8, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
Jeff, our HOF manager should have retired years ago. As it is, Bobby Cox is flaming out in the face of history. It’s been like watching a lawn dart, straight up and straight down.
The one thing that I am still ticked off about is, looking back over the 2008 season and watching Yunel Escobar getting drilled over and over while Cox refused to retaliate has me fighting mad to this day. Bobby did not protect his player and it irrefutable evidence that the man needs to be put out to pasture.
By Joe M.
November 8, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this
Andy (Kansas City): Lots of rumors floating around centering on a Ryan Ludwick or Matt Holiday or Kelly Johnson trade. Thoughts?
Joe Sheehan: I think if you can get Kelly Johnson for Ryan Ludwick, you do it. He’s a wildly underrated player, and the Cardinals desperately need to lengthen their lineup. They do that by adding a 2B who can hit.
Yes, Kelly Johnson is a very underrated player. Sadly though, many don’t seem to know. You never know what you have till it is gone. A year of Martin Prado at second instead of Johnson if Johnson is traded should make people here appreciate Johnson more.
As for Peavy, can we please get him already?
By Salty Dawg
November 8, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this
CC Sabathia ain’t happening folks. Get over it and plug someone else into your “what if” list. The Brewers have already offered him $20M a year right out of the gate and are expecting a “counteroffer”, meaning more years and/or more $ per year. Not to mention that the Yankees have reportedly made Sabathia their top off season target, meaning they will come over the top of whatever the Brewers ultimately offer. All said and done, Sabathia will most likely sign for considerably less than $20M/yr. No way would the Braves offer him more than that and no way he would take a lower offer from the Braves than he can get on the open market. I honestly don’t even see how anyone could truly believe he is an option for the Braves. Sure, offer him $20M for 5 or 6 years. Why not? But will he take it? Better chance of us resigning Tex.
By mbatl
November 8, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this
I’ve posted this before, but I heard Wren in a radio interview a while back, and he said he saw no likelihood of the Braves offering any pitcher 6 years or more. Just said the risk of declining value, and being stuck, is too great. The only way we maybe get CC is to offer him something like 5/125, and that ain’t happening with our payroll.
By chuckw/deadjournalist
November 8, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this
with all the talk about high-profile free agents or trades, i decided to look at a few other players whose signing might help the ‘09 team.
all the of players listed would have no draft pick compensation.
catchers: vance wilson/paul bako/henry blanco - both bako and blanco have played here before and both would be a significant upgrade over clint sammons. frankly, any of the available catchers like wilson would probably be an upgrade.
starting pitching: freddy garcia - there isn’t much out there. what? you wanted me to include mark hendrickson?
if he’s affordable, mike hampton might be the best option. the smoltz/glavine combo could be thrown in there as well.
relief pitching: will ohman. everyone else is hurt, old, going to be overpaid or has already pitched out of the braves bullpen.
bench: greg norton/tony clark/damion easley - professional hitters.
By mike p
November 8, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
CLAY, I would have to agree with SALTY DAWG about Sabathia. The more I read on here, the less I want to get rid of Yunel. I agree with everyone’s concern about Yunel’s bright future, but thinking in terms of the next 3-4 years, Peavy is what we need. We need that ace right now to build our younger pitchers around for 09, 2010 and beyond. Peavy allows us to bring along these “studs” at their own pace. He takes alot of pressure off an already thin pitching staff. Last year our starters got roughed up ALOT. Reyes, Morton, those younger guys were being depended on (because of injuries, I understand) as number 4 and 5 guys. Sabathia will not be destined for Atlanta as we know the Yanks will drive that price up. Plus, Lowe isn’t just some other pitcher. We would really need to throw some nice change toward Lowe, Dempster, or Burnett if we are interested in getting them, which I hope we are.
DOB, are there any other rumors involving escobar and the twins as revealed on mlb trade rumors? What type of package would we look for in return? Also, is there any interest shown toward Holliday from the Braves? I’m assuming not, but just wondering if you had any insight to that situation. Thanks
By Andy
November 8, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this
We do not know if Wren will consider “No Trade” clauses. This may be a hold-up to the Peavy deal. Schuerholz would not include them in contracts. We aren’t going to turn around and trade Peavy at any point in his tenure if we get him. We also don’t know Wren’s philosophy regarding the no trade clause. Peavy may very well not accept a deal unless a clause is included. There’s no guarantee that the Braves will be any better than the Padres have been the last few years.( God I hope we improve over the last 3 seasons.)
We saw maddux, glavine and smoltz thrive with great defense up the middle. I wish Vizquel was just a few years younger, he’d be a great guy to play ss. As we have seen over the past few years, more and more shortstops are offense minded-rollins, ramirez, reyes, etc. Escobar is a stud, and if I am SD I am drooling over the thought of Esco, Morton, and Gorkys.
Need to get back to pitching pitching pitching and good defense. One key ingredient that we are missing is a clean-up hitter. It’s so important to have a guy behind chipper to provide protection. Really miss Sheff, Galarraga, Tex, McGriff.
I would love to sign Burnett as our number 2. As Chipper said, he’s a horse that will be excellent for the postseason since he’s a power strikeout guy. You HAVE to have a strong 1-2 punch in the posteason. I believe ugabrave said it well in a blog recently-we have faced the Johnson/Schilling, Pettite/Clemens/Oswalt, etc, etc 1-2 punches. Hard to beat ‘em in a short series.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 8, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH—
Sorry…That post was sort of tongue-in-cheek. I was referring to the 18 homers each for Chipper and McCann before the Break.
Why neither of them could hit more than four and five (respectively) homers after the Break is beyond me…Maybe it was Chipper’s hammy’s or whatever it was he hurt. As for McCann…he seemed to lose his power-stroke after…well…
—We interrupt this post to bring you a Score Alert—
TOUCHDOWN, Tech!! ‘Bout time.
Anyway…Let me put it this way: After hitting two homers in one game on July 25…
I think you know where I’m going with this one, eh?
By clay
November 8, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
Well instead of getting CC for 20 mil a year and Lowe like I said in my post for 15, we can go for any combo of Lowe/Burnett/Sheets/Dempster/Perez and sign 2 for 17mil a season. Does that make everybody happy? My whole point was get 2 good starters to go with JJ and whoever between Hanson/Morton/Campillo/Hampton/Reyes. That way we would still have Escobar and two solid pitchers ahead of JJ and only have to give up KJ.
By Jamie
November 8, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this
While O’Brien has it partially right in suggesting the Padres need to acquire outfielders in any Peavy trade, I think he missed the boat in suggesting the Padres would take Gorkys Hernandez.
The Padres need to acquire young outfielders who can contribute now in a Peavy deal, so making a move for a kid still playing in A-Ball does not really fit their needs. Also, the Padres are looking for guys who work the count and get on base a lot. From what I have seen, Hernandez plate discipline leaves something to be desired.
If the Padres can’t have Hansen, I would expect them to demand either Heyward or Schafer in the deal. Especially if they are forced to take crap like Charlie Morton and Jo-jo Reyes.
I would expect the Braves to have to give up Escobar, Schafer/Heyward, Morton and one more arm to get it done. My guess is, anything less means the Padres move on to the Dodgers and a package consisting of Kershaw and Kemp.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 8, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
chuckw/deadjournalist catchers: vance wilson/paul bako/henry blanco - both bako and blanco have played here before and both would be a significant upgrade over clint sammons.
Careful. I got shot down for mentioning Bako.
; )
By mbatl
November 8, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this
Jamie, isn’t the Padres’ OF pretty well set for ‘09 with Gerut, Headley and Giles? And so they might be looking for a prospect to move in when Giles is gone in 2010, and Gerut probably moves to a corner spot? I’m not a Padres expert, so maybe I’m misreading it.
And from reading the rumors, the Padres actually prefer Gorkys to Schafer. I don’t know if that’s true, but it’s what’s been written.
By FANcoeur
November 8, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this
@3:01,
Heyward is just as far off, if not more so, as Gorkys Hernandez.
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this
Greetings from Phoenix, where it’s about 80 and sunny, as usual this time of year. Solar Sox playing tonight at 7 (9 p.m. Eastern) against the Phoenix Desert Dogs. You can throw the records out when the Solar Sox and D-Dogs square off….
MBATL: Braves not bidding for Sabathia. Repeat, not bidding for Sabathia. I know you didn’t say they were (you were saying why they wouldn’t), but just saw your comment regarding CC, and didn’t scroll up to see who you were responding to. Only place Braves are ever connected to CC is right here, on this blog, in the comments’ section….
By Tomas
November 8, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this
I hope the Braves don’t do the same mistake the Yankees did with Johan Santana and the twins, and put an ultimatum. I really understand that they’ve must of heard a lot of offers for Escobar, or Kelly, from the Cards, Twins, and of course the padres. If by December the SD still haven’t come to a decision make other trades and forget about Peavy.
Maybe the Braves can pull off a deal to get Francisco Liriano or Scott Baker from the Twins.
By MizzouBravesFan
November 8, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this
After reading the Chicago Sun Times article today about how it’s pretty much down to the Braves and Cubs and a trade is “expected within a week”, I can’t honestly believe Towers would think Chicago’s rumored offer is better than ours.
They have the rumored offers as:
Escobar, Morton, & Schafer for Peavy
or
Sean Marshall, Kevin Hart, and Mike Fontenot for Peavy
Supposedly Samardzija’s an automatic no.
Are you kidding me??? There is no way in the world that is better than any offer we could put together.
Again, is it Tower’s just trying to pressure the Braves into caving and adding Hanson or overpaying?
I just can’t honestly believe they’re taking that Chicago offer seriously, even if Pie or Cedeno were involved.
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this
Lew, love you man, but your 12:11 post regarding Peavy … dude, have another cup of coffee or something.
Of all the stats to cite about Peavy, you’re the only guy who keeps posting his 10-11 record as if that’s really a key stat. Dude, he GOT NO RUN SUPPORT. Check his freakin’ run support. And he got poor bullpen help.
Just compare his overall stats with others, and you should realize he had clearly better stats than most 15-game winners, and better than some pitchers who won 16-18 games this season.
Lew, really, in a serious discussion of pitching, you simply have to take into account so much more than won-loss record. ERA and WHIP are far more telling factors of a pitchers’ performance. Far more. Check his strikeouts to walks, strikeouts per inning, opp average. Come on, man, you gotta see he had a solid year.
Save the 10-11 record argument for a less-savvy audience than what we have here. I dare to say, most folks here look deeper than a won-loss record.
And yes, he was down 50 innings. Lew, that’s because he was on the DL for a month. It happens. It’s not like he became a 5-inning pitcher like Maddux in recent years or something. You write that his innings were down as if there’s some mystery why. He was ON THE DL, and he also missed a couple starts at end of season when Padres were way out of it and his third kid was born.
Hey, is there some concern about his elbow? Sure there is. But that can be said about so many pitchers, and not said about so many who end up getting hurt, like your Mulders and Hudsons. So who knows? If the MRI was bad, or even raised red flags, it’d be one thing. But it’s not.
So unless you believe his mechanics are going to lead to inevitable TJ surgery (even though they haven’t after a whole lot of stellar power-pitching so far), then so be it.
But quit citing a 10-11 record for a horrible team that gave him no support. It’s just not that relevent.
Oh, and his agent is Scott Boras? Lou, I wrote an entire blog above about his agent Barry Axelrod’s comments and explanation. Axelrod. Not an easy name to forget.
Boras? No. Doesn’t represent Peavy.
By dirtyfrank
November 8, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this
Towers was on a Chicago radio station today. He went on and on about how great Jim Hendry is and how honest he is. He then made a few comments that sound like a Peavy deal is likely to happen with Chicago.
By Lew
November 8, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this
Clay-NO ONE is going to sign Sabbathia for seven years. No one is going to get him for $20 mil a season. It just ain’t happening Dude. Not for the Braves or any other team. It is totally unrealistic to think anyone will take a chance on a pitcher for 7 and he will definitely make more than you think.
I’m betting he’s going to see a four year contract with an option for 5 at about $115-125 mil (or 5 and 6 with more $$$$)-especially since you can probably count on the Yankees, Angels and others with tons of $$$$$ bidding for his services..
Dude, I’ll tell you what. If he gets either 7 years or an average of only $20 mil, I’ll draw you the portrait of your choice-that’s how much I don’t see either happening.
MBATL-Dude, go check it out. That HR per 9 is based on Peavy’s career stats, not just compared to 06 or 07. He has given up 128 HR in 1261 IP-with half his games at Petco. Also he did give up four more HR in 50 less IP last year. Make of it what you will, but I damn well am going to scream I told you so if the Braves get him and he ends up having surgery. As for the starts-missing four or five due to elbow issues scares me-especially with his motion.
Steve-Say what you will about Vasquez, but he’s quite experienced though still relatively young. He has a decent ERA and has thrown 200 or more innings for eight of nine years-the ninth was just shy of 200. He has a decent WHIP and a good 2-1 K to BB rate. He will eat innings and give you a chance tyo win almost every start-and has done so for quite a few years. $11.5 mil for a guy who is a guaranteed 200 IP is NOT out of line. For crying out loud, they paid Glavine $10 mil, thinking he would go 200. Glavine was 9 years older than Vasquez.
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this
Jamie, sorry we missed the boat. Didn’t realize you were so plugged into the Padres’ front office. Can I pass along your name/number to my buddy who covers the Padres?
By the way, if you read the blog above I mention both Schafer and Gorkys, and say the Braves might possibly include Gorkys in the deal instead of Schafer. I don’t rule out either. But I’m told Padres are higher on Gorkys, who some believe has a higher upside.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 8, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this
Ryan Dempster is said to be asking for five years and 70 million guaranteed.
And he can go stick it in his ear.
The Padres don’t seem to have much interest in Jordan Schafer and most people seem to think this trade will get done sometime in the next week or so.
It’s the Braves or the Cubs, one of the two and I think that Jake Peavy himself will be the one to decide which team. He has the no trade claus. He can give either team the thumbs up or the thumbs down.
By semiballcoach
November 8, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this
twins writer says they are interested in escobar…..liriano?
By LKS
November 8, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this
I am so glad it was mentioned that Peavy got NO run support which is why his record looks like that. I wonder how his record will look with the Braves after they give up the 3rd best hitter (behind Chip and Mccann which was posted on the braves site) and 2nd best defensive ss in the Majors(when peavy is a goundball pitcher). Thanks to Peavy and his agent for being smart enough to recognize this.
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
MizzouBravesFan: I agree with your 3:52. At least on the surface, it doesn’t seem like the Cubs’ offer is nearly as good. That’s why I get the impression the Padres are just trying to get a slightly better deal out of the Braves, using the Cubs as leverage. I surely could be wrong, but that’s the impression I get.
By dirtyfrank
November 8, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
Why do you guys persist in this talk. Peavy is going to Chicago. See my above post.
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this
Clay: Lew’s right about CC. You’re at least $5 mill a year too low. He’s going to surely get at least $25 mill per year in a 5-6 year deal, from everyone I’ve talked to. Yes, even with this horrific economy going from bad to worse.
By semiballcoach
November 8, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
i meant if peavy falls thru—esco liriano
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 8, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this
Listen, if Towers has a man-crush on Hendry and Peavy prefers the Cubs, so be it…the Cubs will get him. If they want to take the best deal, the Braves will get him. It’s pretty much that simple.
By Rob
November 8, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this
I like everyone else, is just ready to see this resolved. What an exciting off-season this has been.
By Alan
November 8, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this
Who said earlier that, if the Braves trade Escobar, they’ll be able to find “an above average shortstop somewhere”? Really? Name one. Renteria? Eckstein? No and No to both of them. Furcal? Yes, he’ll do, but they’ll never be able to sign him — much too expensive. If the Braves include Escobar in the Peavy trade, they’ll be significantly weaker in the field and at the plate. That makes no sense. And all of this blather about Escobar’s temper and attitude is a crock. The guy is immensely talented, he’s had two very productive seasons, and he’s only 25 years old! If the Braves trade him for anyone — including Peavy — it will be a huge mistake. Now there’s a rumor that the Twins, Royals and Cardinals all want Escobar. Of course they do. I’ll bet the Red Sox want him as well. The guy is one of the 6 or 7 best shortstops in the game. He should not be traded. Period.
By Kevin
November 8, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this
If Yunel goes in the Peavy deal I would love to see the Braves get Orlando Cabrera to replace him. Slick fielder, consistent hitter, a ton of playoff experience and he’s good for 20 steals a year (when’s the last time we could say that about any Braves player). Numbers were a little down last year but I think that was mostly because he hated Chicago and playing for Ozzie. In my perfect world the Braves would get Peavy (giving up Gorkys Hernandez NOT Jordan Schafer), sign O.C., resign Smoltz, and promote Tommy Hanson to the starting rotation.
By Lew
November 8, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
DOB-Dude, first of all I don’t drink coffee (or caffeine or alcohol, for that matter). Second-every single thing you just posted to me is about what you and the other Peavy advocates have bludgeoned me with for going on three weeks now and I still haven’t changed my mind.
Like I said-If he comes to the Braves and wins like y’all think he will I will admit I was wrong. I will do so with a huge smile on my face, because I want only what is best for the Braves. The better his performance, the bigger my smile. Hell-crow is better than some of what I’ve had to eat in my life=probably tastes like chicken and I can BBQ it. However, you just ain’t gonna convince me on this one. Just ain’t. The Force just isn’t with me on this one.
By tscott625
November 8, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this
is jj hardy a free agent? if so, we could make a run at him and include yunel in the peavy trade
By Robert
November 8, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this
DOB
I would rather keep Schafer than Gorkys. THere is too much porjecting Gorkys will develop power. Do you get a feeling who the Braves are higher on
By Annan
November 8, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this
Great post as always DOB. I have to agree that The Shield is one of if not the best show on television. Too bad there are only three episodes left.
By Joe M.
November 8, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this
Why do you guys persist in this talk. Peavy is going to Chicago. See my above post.
Excuse me if I sincerely doubt you have any more knowledge of where Jake Peavy will end up than me or anyone else on this blog who is not O’Brien.
I think he’ll be a Brave. It is down to the Braves, Cubs and Dodgers and the Padres aren’t trading Peavy within the division and the Cubs’ offer sucks.
By Steve from OH
November 8, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this
Lew, Vazquez has a career ERA+ of 105, and excepting his good 2007, has been ever so slightly below average over three of the last 4 years (ERA+ of 100,98,99 if I remember correctly). His career ERA is 4.32, and in his last 3 seasons with the White Sox it has been 4.84, 3.74, and 4.67 Yes, his K/9 is good and his WHIP is average (which is why I won’t dismiss him completely like Garland), but his ERA has been below ML average 4 out of the last 5 seasons. I don’t really think a slightly below-average pitcher is worth 11.5 MM simply because he eats innings.
Did I mention that he is 94th in pitcher VORP? For comparison, Jorge Campillo was 73rd, Braeden Looper was 75th, and Dave Bush was 71st. Those guys are (or would be) considered back-end of the rotation guys at best for us, so I fail to understand why you consider Vazquez a good, make-us-a-contender pickup.
This falls into the “captain obvious” category, but a trade for Peavy and strong push for Derek Lowe is the best route to go. If I’m FW, I don’t settle for average-ish guys like Javier Vazquez. Especially if I have to give up prospects and then pay that average-ish guy 11.5MM, when I probably could get similar value from Mike Hampton or Charlie Morton, not to mention Tommy Hanson.
By Original Jon
November 8, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this
Lew Seriously???? Dude, you cant be convinced that Won-Loss record doesnt mean squat???? Come on man, you might not be doing caffeine or alcohol, but you are on something if you think W-L records mean anything. Heres a hypothetical, lets say a pitcher who pitches every 5 days on a team with no offense and every time he pitches he gets no run support at all, none, and he only gives up 1 run each time out. Lets say at the end of the year he ends up going 0-20 with an ERA of 1.00.. Are you telling us that that guy is worse than a pitcher that goes 16-10 with an ERA of 4.24??? If you are, then there is something wrong. W-L records for a pitcher are more of a team effort, its the whole team that contributes to that stat, not just the pitcher. So yeah, i would take Peavy if he were 0-20 with an ERA of 1.00
By Alan
November 8, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this
And while I’m at it, I’m once again going to pooh-pooh the KJ for Ludwick trade. KJ is at least 3 years younger (more likely 4), and finished last season very strong. He’s got a great eye at the plate, good power, above-average speed. Granted, he’s not a great defensive second baseman, but he’s not a liability, either. And he figures to keep improving at the plate and in the field. Ludwick (now 30) has had exactly 1 good (OK, very good — he made the All Star team) major league season. Is he a proven commodity? Hardly. If he were, why would the Cardinals even consider trading him? I’ll tell you why — because they believe he’s hit his peak. KJ has not hit his yet. If the Braves do this, it’s a very dumb move. I’d much rather see them throw FA money at Burrell (who is overrated, I believe, and a dud in LF, but a proven run-producer) than make a dumb trade like this.
By Tomas
November 8, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this
The Rays also can improve their SS position, they might be interested in Escobar. Maybe they could pull off a deal for Matt Garza, James Schields or Scott Kazmir.
The Dbacks are in need of a 2B, maybe trade Kelly for Max Scherzer.
I know the dodgers entered the bidding for Jake Peavy, which I don’t reeally understand why, when they’re strength is pitching. Yes Derek Lowe, and Brad Penny are leaving, but they still have Chad Billingsley, Hiroki Kuroda, Eric Stults, Clayton Kershaw, and the possibility of getting Jason Schmidt. They need a second baseman, shortstop, that can hit. Plus the fact that they will have the money to sign a pitcher. Furcal, Lowe, and Penny are free agents, and Manny(which I think may be offered more money or years by the yankees). They already have four outfielders, they can trade Pierre, and Andruw(if anyone would take him, at least he still plays good defense, and I don’t believe next year will be as bad as this one). Maybe the Braves can get Chad Billingsley for either Kelly Johnson, or Yunel Escobar and a low level prospect.
The Redsox have money to spend in the FA market, and they need a SS. Maybe a Jon Lester for Yunel Escobar and a prospect swap.
The Royals need a second baseman and a right fielder, maybe a Mark Teahen, (Zack Greinke or Gil Meche) deal for Kelly Johnson, and Jeff Franceour. But I think I heard the Royals were not going to trade Greinke.
The Giants need either a 2B, or SS, and have good young pitching. Maybe a Matt Cain for Kelly or Yunel and a prospect can do the trick.
The Twins have Liriano, or Scot Baker. The Whitesox John Danks Gavin Floyd. The Pirates(need Paul Maholm, Ian Snell. The Reds(need SS) have Aaron Harang, Bronson Arroyo, and Johnny Cueto.
Jake Peavy is definitely the best one, and is available, but there are other options.
By john
November 8, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB,
Anything new on the actual trading front. We have just been speculating on here so far really. I just want to know if there is anything new!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 8, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this
Steve—
I elaborated my 12:53 post for you. Sorry for the unclarity!
By Bubdylan
November 8, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this
DOB Renewing my request for the James McMurtry singles list, light on the politics, heavy on the introspection, heartache, & honky tonk. I know it’s a busy blog with Peavy, so if I don’t get it from you this round, I’ll hit you up again when the burner cools. Thank you for considering… helps a brother out who can’t afford many CD purchase misfires.
By Lew
November 8, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this
Steve-Whatever.
By Lew
November 8, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this
Y’all-Let’s just get something straight here. You can spout all these friggin heiroglyphic, Bill James bullcrap stats at me all you want and I’m not going to change my mind. I don’t care if we get Peavy and I think Vasquez would be a good addition. Go VORP yourselves.
By Corb
November 8, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this
The Sox are not trading Lester. Sorry.
By mbatl
November 8, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this
If I’m FW, I don’t settle for average-ish guys like Javier Vazquez
Steve, agree completely. Vazquez is a great pickup for a team that has 3-4 top good starters and needs an innings eater to complete the rotation - and of course, money to spend. He’s not the answer for a team with one proven starter on the roster, looking to improve from 4th in the division to first. (he’d be very good for the Phillies, or even the Mets, for example).
Just from reading the rumors, I think FW is trying to build a championship team, not just improve us from 72 wins to 85. Vazquez is not the type of player to help you do that.
Wouldn’t mind having him as a 4th/5th starter after we’ve settled on the first 3/4, and if we’ve got the resources left to acquire him.
By dirtyfrank
November 8, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this
Cubbies just upped the ante in their offer. Towers was raving about Hendry on the radio today, and hinted that Peavy would be a Cub. I don’t think Peavy wants to be a Brave now that he can go to an instant contender in the Cubbies. You guys need to give it up, no one wants to play for the loser Braves-you will never be able to compete with the Phillies who have one of the best lineups in the league coupled with speed, and the Mets who do not seem to have payroll constrictions. For years the Braves were able to get by on bargain shopping, not anymore-I don’t see the Braves even being worth mentioning for at least the next 3 years. Peavy WILL be a CUB. Bank on it.
By MBPelican
November 8, 2008 5:23 PM | Link to this
dirtyfrank=delusional
By Heath
November 8, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this
It would be interesting to see how a potential trade with the Twins could pay out. As Minnesota showed throughout the meat of the season, starting pitching is definitely a position of strength for them. Did I also read that Liriano was upset with the Twins for keeping him in the Minor Leagues for so long this season too? (Mainly because there was no where to put him due to the performance of their starting five.) DOB, you hearing thing substantiated between these two clubs? If so, or even if not, could the universal demand for Escobar drive down the asking price for either the Padres or the Twins if one felt they would lose out on a trade with the Braves?
By Steve from OH
November 8, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this
Lew, glad to see you’re keeping an open mind and are willing to engage in some good baseball discussion (please read mbatl’s post on it too) No matter how you feel, I, going back and doing a quick sweep of the ‘ol memory, have never known the Braves to settle for older, mediocre veterans, especially if they’re owed significant amounts of money and/or you have to trade prospects for them. Even rarer is the signing of an old, mediocre vet (like Garland, or Wolf, etc.). Now, I could be wrong on that, as I am far too lazy to look it up right now, but I sincerely doubt that practice is prevalent. Vazquez will not put us over the hill. We’re in need of starters that are actually good, which Peavy and Lowe are. Frank Wren knows that, and I highly, highly doubt that Vazquez is high on his wish list.
Like mbatl said (I completely agree w/him, btw), he’s a good addition if we’re looking to add one back-end of the rotation starter with your top-end guys taken care of. But we’ve got lots of options for the 4/5 slot, nearly all of whom will make the league minimum. What we need is frontline starters, which Vazquez is certainly not. Just looking at it, trading 2 prospects and then paying 11.5 mill for a slightly below-average, older pitcher who is a 4/5 guy on a good team is simply not a good investment. Give me an internal option in the 5 spot for 400K over Vazquez and his 11.5 mill. We’ll have a much clearer picture of who those internal options are after the Peavy situation is figured out.
By BravesFanChris24
November 8, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this
dirtyfrank is trolling.
I think it is going to be a close race and whoever gets Peavy is going to get better. However, Cubs truthfully doesn’t need Peavy, they have a solid core starting rotation. At the end of it, it’ll be of Towers’ preference. Quality from Braves or quantity from Cubs.
I’m glad it could get done soon, the sooner the better.
By Steve from OH
November 8, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this
McFann:
Gotcha. Been real busy lately and I’ve only been able to drop in at random intervals and skim the posts, so I didn’t catch it the first time…
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 8, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH—
OK, just wanted to be sure.
Didn’t know if I should post it again or not…glad I did, now. Always happy to oblige.
By Efrim
November 8, 2008 5:51 PM | Link to this
If the Cubs don’t include Josh Vitters or, at the very least, Jose Ceda, than their package does not come close to the Braves.
I mean, Sean Marshall, Felix Pie and Ronny Cedeno? They are nice players, but you can’t throw failed top prospects at a team in this type of a trade.
I would be shocked if Towers/Alderson/Depodesta took that. They are smart baseball people. Surely they can see Yunel, Morton, Gorkys/Schafer and a lesser prospect is far better. It isn’t even close.
By JC from UT
November 8, 2008 6:03 PM | Link to this
DOB: In your opinion who will play SS if/when Yunel gets traded?
By TommyP
November 8, 2008 6:09 PM | Link to this
“VORP yourself.” That’s pretty classic, Lew. Maybe you can take out the “F” and insert the “V” in “STVU”??? Gave me a good laugh.
Concerning wins/losses for a pitcher, I’ll chime in.
Never forget the year that some guy went 8-16. I mean..everytime he took the mound you just felt he was going to lose.
Yep…8-16…with a 2.76 ERA, 1.13 WHIP, 270 K’s, and 154 hits in 211 innings.
With an 8-16 ERA, this guy finished 5th in the Cy Young voting.
Nolan Ryan was the guy.
Another thing…what’s the fascination with Swisher?
Scott Olsen: Guys, unless Wrenn is the polar opposite of Schuerholz, he’s not coming to Atlanta. From all accounts, character still matters with the Braves/Cox.
In 2006, Olsen got into a fight with teammate Randy Messenger. Girardi also pulled him by the collar and confronted him.
That same year, Olsen yelled at Miguel Cabrera and they went after each other in the dugout.
Late in 2006, he was seen screaming and waving his glove at Chase Utley because Utley called time before a pitch.
In 2007, he was fine for making an obscene gesture to a fan.
He later had a confrontation with Sergio Mitre and other teammates in the dugout regarding throwing his jersey at the team trainer (that story is a bit muddied). He was suspended 2 games for insubordination.
Last year, he fled police after being pulled over for speeding and when police finally got to him at his home, they had to taser the moron ‘cause he was kicking at them.
There is no way Bobby Cox is going to allow this guy in the Braves clubhouse.
By Lew
November 8, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this
Steve-Dude, I’m sorry, but we’ve gone through this whole thing once too often. I am just not a proponent of The Electron Microscope Theory of Viewing Baseball Statistics Religion. I’m a different denomination and you aren’t converting me by continually claiming I’m not open minded or deluded when you spout your Dogma. If Shaun, the Energizer Bunny of Stats hasn’t converted me with his Missionary Zeal, you won’t either. Sorry you take this personally, but that”s your problem, not mine. Just because we disagree as to their importance doesn’t make me delusional or any less knowledgeable about baseball.
As to MBATL’s view on Vasquez. I have a different view there and to me it is exceedingly rational whether you two will go along with it or not. The wild card in the whole scenario-Tim Hudson.
I have been one of the biggest if not THE biggest Braves’ Homers here on this blog for going on four years now. I’ve been constantly ridiculed for being too positive and not being realistic. That is at an end (to an extent). Losing Tim Hudson for the season changed things appreciably. It is forcing us to acquire two top rotation pitchers instead of one and I don’t think we can do it and pick up the power we need as well (much less replace Yunel or KJ). I think it is way too much for Wren (or anyone without the Yankees’ or Cubs’ money) to accomplish. If Hudson were healthy it would be different. We may well have to wait for 2010 to dominate, though I would think we would do better in the improvement department than 85 wins. So be it if it takes another year.
So supposing we’re in a two year plan, if we can get pitchers like Lowe and Vasquez (quite realistic to my point of view), our rotation for 2010 would be Hudson, Lowe, Jurrjens, Vasquez (see, a number four pitcher-NOT top of rotation) and Hanson. That would give us, in essence (should JJ continue to improve), FOUR 200 IP guys and a strikeout master in the making anchoring the rotation. Vasquez could almost certainly be signed for a couple more years at reasonable rates if we had no one from the Farm in readiness for the 2011 season (or until Teheran is ready a couple years down the road).
Now to my way of thinking, there have been three major pitching problems leading to the Braves’ downturn in fortune the past three years 1. Injuries to the starters 2.Overuse of the pen primarily due to said injuries and 3.Lack of production from the lower part of the rotation.
Now the acquisition of Lowe and Vasquez, while maybe not leading to dominace in 09, coupled with the return of Hudson in 2010, gives us a staff of innings eating pitchers, the two newest of whom have ZERO injury history with a good sample size to back that contention. Two major pitching problems are covered with their acquisition. The ability for all (or 4 of 5-we’ll see how Hanson does) of our pitchers to eat innings will save a good bit of overwork to our pen. Item three is covered as well-Vasquez and Hanson are a great bottom of rotation pair.
Now that’s the staff. As for the everyday players, not picking up Peavy will leave us with more than enough prospects (and not losing the best of the best) to get Vasquez and Swisher (who takes care of your power problems at a reasonable salary). It also leaves us with Yunel and Kelly Johnson, giving us middle infield continuity, stability and Yunel’s superior defensive abilities, not to mention his bat, which has been quite good when his injured shoulder hasn’t hurt his swing. It will also likely leave us with a couple more Minor League pieces than we will have if we get Peavy. It should also not beggar our payroll, so we can deal with life financially in the next few years (Peavy’s contract escalates pretty significantly ovver that time). Simple cost/benefit to my way of thinking.
Now maybe this does not coincide with your theories of how to deal with life itself for the Braves or how to put together a team, but I daresay that it is an informed, rational viewpoint, possibly much more realistic than many of the scenarios involving Peavy. You may think my head is buried in the sand and I refuse to see what’s in front of my face, but you could very well be wrong. I think you are.
By ccrider
November 8, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this
Let me see? Braves trade starting shortstop Escobar, along with Morton or Reyes(neither of which was able to pitch consistently enough to keep the Braves from looking for 2 more quality starting pitchers this off season)Gorky Hernandez( that although he is highly thought of, did have a disapointing season a A ball) and possibly another lesser prospect for Jake Peavy the 2007 unanimous CY Young winner, who is reasonably signed for 5 more years(in today’s market). So, the only sure thing we are trading is Escobar, 2 erractic pitchers with potential, who at best project to be middle or end of the rotation starters, a fleet centerfielder who could become Kenny Lofton or Willy Taveras and a lesser prospect. Excuse me if I don’t see the logic of those who are Soooo set against this. There are many ways to built a team. Escobar is great, but did Jeter, Hanley Ramirez, Stephen Drew, Jose Reyes, Michael Young, Miguel Tejada or Orlando Cabrara make the playoffs and win the World Series. I believe the GREAT Jason Bartlett was Tampa Bays shortstop. I promise all those doubters of this trade: If the Braves get Peavy and either Lowe, Dempster, Sheets, or Burnett. Resign Hampton, Glavine( if he is back to where he was at the start of the season) to go with Hanson and Campillo to fill in for temporary injuries AND fill the power and shortstop void: The Braves WILL be in the playoff race. IN 2010 a rotation of Peavy, (just say) Lowe, Hudson, Jurjjens and Hanson with a few more lineup and bullpen tweets and The World Series are in view. To further doubters Tampa Bay Gets the 2008 NO. 1 Draft pick for being worst team in baseball and later that year plays in the World Series.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 8, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this
The Reds are not Trading Cueto, the Twins are not trading Liriano, and the Sox certainly are not trading Lester…let’s be realistic in our targets here…again, there is NO ONE like Peavy available. No. One.
By Lew
November 8, 2008 6:27 PM | Link to this
TommyP-Shut The Vorp Up. Dude, I like that. Destined to become a Classic, for certain.
By JR Bob Dobbs
November 8, 2008 6:28 PM | Link to this
So, I didn’t receive any comments from my meager posting about the Braves a blog or two back (asking about the Braves’ possible interest in Randy Winn). Let me switch gears…
If you’re a fan of the late, great A Tribe Called Quest like me, then run, don’t walk to get your copy of Q-Tip’s “The Renaissance.” I got it today and it think it’s fantastic upon my first listen or two. The singles “Johnny is Dead,” “Official, “Believe,” and “Shaka” are all worth the price of admission by themselves IMHO. If you listen closely, you’ll notice President-Elect Obama woven into the background of “Shaka” BTW…
I almost saw A Tribe Called Quest at the Palace of Auburn Hills north of Detroit in ‘98, when they were opening for the Beastie Boys. If not for that 2-hour delay on the 2-mile-or-so access road from I-75 to the arena, I wouldn’t have have missed ATCQ and instead arrived 30 minutes late into the B-Boys set. It was a fun time going those two miles though with spontaneous parties breaking out during stopped traffic…
By TI
November 8, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this
Hey Dave,
What are the chances that the Braves would go after Renteria again?
I have heard nothing but good things about having his presence in the clubhouse.
By Efrim
November 8, 2008 6:45 PM | Link to this
ccrider
I know you addressed this to all of the blog but, personally, I am fine with Escobar, Morton, Gorkys Hernandez and someone like Medlen or Marek for Peavy. I’d be happy.
But Escobar, Morton, Schafer and Locke or Rohrbough would be an awful trade for the Braves.
Even though the Braves aren’t going to be done with the offseason, I really don’t like the SS options available in free agency or trade. So I think replacing Yunel is going to be really difficult. So, we are probably going to be down in production at SS.
Then there is CF. I don’t want a full season of Blanco/Anderson. I’m not saying Schafer is a shoe in to be much better. But he will certainly provide more power at that position….which is needed, now. Of course, the Braves can go and sign Mark Kotsay, but I would rather see Schafer in CF, I really would.
Locke/Rohrbough have a higher ceiling than Marek/Medlen in my mind. And Marek/Medlen project as reliever’s anyway.
Anyways, all speculation on my part, but it is fun to talk about. Although I am going to be really happy when this is over with. Whether he ends up on the Cubs or Braves, it will be a relief to just talk about something else for a change.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 8, 2008 7:02 PM | Link to this
I still can’t come up with what Plan B may be…obviously, it may be a path that doesn’t come up until the Winter meetings, but I just don’t see one at this point. I guess that’s why we are all lucky that I am not the GM! (:
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 8, 2008 7:13 PM | Link to this
I can’t tell you how annoyed I am that this guy on the “Official Site” spells his “blog” name “Mccanfan16”—He only puts one n in McCann, and he doesn’t capitalize the second C!! ARG!!!
By Braveheart
November 8, 2008 7:29 PM | Link to this
ROLL TIDE!!!
By Jay Cee
November 8, 2008 7:31 PM | Link to this
Okay, just how screwed are we if we don’t end up getting Peavy?
People talk about how Wren can just go out and pick up two free-agent pitchers if we don’t get Peavy like it’s the easiest thing in the world, but..would it really be that easy?
Because to me, trying to sign one frontline starter would be pretty hard, so it would be darn near impossible to try and sign two. (especially with almost every team in the majors wanting the same ones we do)
By Tomas
November 8, 2008 7:39 PM | Link to this
Matt Garza, James Schields or Scott Kazmir. Max Scherzer. Chad Billingsley or Clayotn Kershaw. Francisco Liriano, or Scot Baker. The John Danks Gavin Floyd. Paul Maholm, Ian Snell.Aaron Harang, Bronson Arroyo, and Johnny Cueto. Zack Greinke or Gil Meche. Jon Lester. Matt Cain.
Non of this players are in the trading block, but each of their teams might be willing to trade, if the other team fill their weaknesses.
Realisticly, I think the Rays won’t trade Matt Garza, James Schields, or Scott Kazmir after all that was what got them to the world series. They need a SS, but they love Barlett performance this year, and they’d rather keep each one of those pitchers, unless they find out Kazmir will need TJ surgery.
Realisticly, I think Kelly Johnson for Max Scherzer is fair for both sides, but D-backs might be close-minded about trading him. After all it is their best pitching prospect of the organization like our Tommy Hanson.
Realisticly, Chad Billingsley or Clayotn Kershaw, will remain, unless they get them in a deal to get an ace. Billingsley is not going to be traded, is like trading Jair Jurrjens. Kershaw in the other hand is very young, and he might be their key card to get an ace to replace Lowe who is vastly overpriced, old, and not an ace.
Realisticly, Francisco Liriano, or Scot Baker are not going to be traded(maybe scot baker, but not Liriano). Last year they made it clear they were not going to trade Liriano no matter what, and that hasn’t changed. Scott Baker is much more likely to be traded than Liriano, but reality is Twins don’t have a whole lot of money or pitching depth, but if the offer is good, meaning they get Escobar, they might agree.
Realisticly, John Danks or Gavin Floyd are not going to be traded. Yes they need a shortstop, but Alexei Ramirez has proven he can handle that position. They want pitching, so that’s why I don’t think they’d be stupid enough to trade John Danks or Gavin Floyd.
Realisticly, Paul Maholm, Ian Snell are a possibility. Maybe they’d try to keep Maholm who is a good #2 or 3 guy, unless they get a good prospect(not Freeman, Hanson, Heyward) . After Ian Snell bad season, I think they would not want to trade him right now because his value isn’t the same as it was, he is a gamble, but the guy has awesome stuff, and might be the guy he was last year (208ip, 3.76ERA, and 177SO).
Aaron Harang, Bronson Arroyo, and Johnny Cueto are a possibility. At least Harang and Arroyo are, and they are a good fit for #2 or 3 guys in the rotation, but I think Yunel Escobar is better than these two. Cueto is not a possibility, the Reds want to build around their two exciting young pitchers Cueto, and Volquez.
Zack Greinke or Gil Meche, can be obtained. We all know Dayton Moore loves Braves players, especially Jeff Franceour, and I think he’d be even more excited with Kelly Johnson. Meche is definitely a possibility especially because of Meche contract. Greinke is better, but he’d be tougher to get, especially when Dayton has said publicly he is not going to trade Greinke.
Jon Lester no way he is traded, unless the Redsox are offered an elite SS, much better than Escobar.
Matt Cain why not. The Giants are not going to win, they have an awful lot of pitching but 0 hitting, and they need both a SS, and 2B. Espn says CC Sabathia is a perfect fit for them, because he wants to be in the Bay area, and they have been known to give big contrct to pitchers. If they get him that would allow them to trade Cain for someon who can hit, and still have the best 1-2 punch in the game. Cain would be great for the Braves.
By ccrider
November 8, 2008 7:45 PM | Link to this
Efrim: I agree with you. But,I honestly think if Peavy, Ludwick are acquired that the Braves would have the money and inclination to sign Furcal(acquiring a leadoff man and SS at the same time). I also think if Tyler Flowers shows well in Spring training he might make the roster as the backup at catcher and first, thus helping with our difficulty with lefties last year and between the 2 positions getting enough at bats to further his progress.
By mike mangan
November 8, 2008 7:54 PM | Link to this
Jake peavy would be a good fit and the deal would happen soon if the Braves would take Khalil greene as part of the deal.The padres want to move the former clemson star.Put him in the mix throw in another bench warmer like a matt diaz type and its a done deal…..
By Ryan
November 8, 2008 8:01 PM | Link to this
Does anyone else think Peavy is being a little bit of a diva? I know he has every right to chose where he ends up, thanks to his no-trade clause, but isn’t it getting a little ridiculous? First he makes it clear he doesn’t want to stick around the Padres if they’re slashing payroll and rebuilding. Secondly, he gives them a list of just 5 NL teams he would accept a trade to. Third, he adds the Yankees and Angels to the list but suggests that it would take a pay raise for him to take a deal to an AL team. Fourth, his agent makes a comment that Jake might veto a deal if the opposing team has to give up too many valuable players to get him. WTF? You’re a legit number 1 starter, the Padres aren’t just going to give you away just because you don’t want to stay there. It takes a guy like Yunel for the Braves or Kershaw for the Dodgers to get deals like this done. Nobody made him sign an extension with the Padres. If he wanted to play for a contender without them having to give up players why didn’t he wait and become a free agent?
By Lew
November 8, 2008 8:02 PM | Link to this
CCRider-Dude, those who think Furcal will come back and be the player he was when he played for the Braves are likely to be quite disappointed. He missed 125 games last year and another 25 in 07. Last year’s back problems could very possibly be of the recurring variety (I direct you to Mark Kotsay). His fielding in the playoffs was terrible.
Since 06, his HR, RBI, 2B, 3B and Total bases are down. His strikeouts are up. His errors are up since he was a Brave and he has a substandard career .966 fielding percentage. Add to this the fact he’s coming off of a $13 mil per year salary and wants a four year deal and I don’t see him as a reasonable option should Yunel be traded.
By Steve from OH
November 8, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this
Lew, I’m not taking it personally at all. Don’t think you’re stupid at all, either. I think you completely misunderstand my position on statistics which irritates me a little bit, but I don’t take it personal. I’m here to chat baseball, which you do (rather well, if I do say so myself), so it’s all good from my end.
Anyway, going back to Vazquez, my point is that I don’t think it is a good investment at all to throw money and prospects at a guy who is already at best leagueaverage, and likely to decline before his contract is up. I think we can get similar production at a lesser cost from Charlie Morton or Tommy Hanson (hopefully both) with a much greater potential upside. It is also completely out of character with the Braves’ organizational philosophy. I can see your point about Peavy IF the Braves were willing to concede ‘09, which they’re not. But your idea is not a bad way to go. But let me put it this way: I would much rather see Hudson, JJ, Lowe, Hanson and Morton rather than Vazquez (but can you imagine Peavy, Hudson, Lowe, Jurrjens and Hanson? That is quite a rotation my man. Would make losing Yunel hurt quite a bit less, I think). That rotation is much cheaper, so we can spend to improve other areas as we see fit. I dunno, 11.5 MM for Vazquez is just too much for me. Would rather let the youngsters learn on the job and invest it elsewhere.
And there is absolutely nothing wrong with being a homer, dude. I’m one myself.
By Make it Stop
November 8, 2008 8:08 PM | Link to this
Will people on this site please get over Furcal and Renteria already? Ever since they left, all we see on every blog is people suggesting bringing them back. They’re both gone for good, get over it already.
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 8:09 PM | Link to this
Just got back from clubhouse, talked to Tyler Flowers and Rocker Wheeler (Solar Sox and Myrtle Beach manager) for quite a while, and talked to Tommy Hanson briefly. Gonna talk to him at length Monday or Tuesday, before I watch him pitch Wednesday.
Tyler’s really got it going out here, hit his seventh homer last night, tied for league lead despite having fewer at-bats than the other leaders (he’s one of four catchers on the team, so doesn’t get to play every day).
He loves catching, doesn’t want to move positions unless and until he’s forced to, and everyone says he’s really made strides as a defensive catcher and game-caller.
All the pitchers like throwing to him, big target who’s “quiet” behind the plate with his receiving. The only thing that needs work is his throwing, but he’s got a really strong arm. It’s just a matter of getting consistently flawless with his footwork and throwing motion, because his size can slow him down when he tends to stand straight up to throw.
Dude is 6-foot-4 and 248. Great guy, too, liked talking to him last spring and now I remember why. Mature and confident youngster.
By TennesseePaul
November 8, 2008 8:09 PM | Link to this
I know this team is in a tight spot when it comes to starting pitching, but sheeeesh. According to ESPN’s Hot Stove section for the Atlanta Braves the number four starting pitcher is Greg Norton. I didn’t think it was that tight.
Lew: So supposing we’re in a two year plan, if we can get pitchers like Lowe and Vasquez
Right here I would just as easily go for Peavy. If the Braves are indeed in a two year plan (which may just be the case, but not by choice, if this off season doesn’t provide everything they hope) then going for Peavy makes even more sense than signing Lowe and acquiring Vazquez. Hudson has a mutual option for 2010 at 12 million. Now I could be wrong, but when I read that, it implies to me that Hudson could turn down his end of the bargain and be free agent, as described here. So there is no guarantee that Hudson will be around in 2010.
With that in mind, a rotation of Lowe, Vazquez, Hanson and Jurrjens isn’t that impressive. Sorry, by then Vazquez is 33 and still not that good, and Lowe will be 37.
However, in a two year approach, a rotation including Jurrjens, Peavy, and Hanson is a might bit better. And with two years you have ample time to acquire any hitting needs. Pitching, as we all know, is at a premium every year. So, perhaps I’m way off here, but it would seem best to acquire the top shelf pitching when ever possible.
When the Braves acquired Greg Maddux, he was the same age as Peavy is today.
When Smoltz was 27, as Peavy was this past season, he had a 6-10 record and had given up homers at a faster rate than he had over his prior career (going from giving up 1 every 12 innings in his career up until then and then having a losing season and giving up 1 every 9 innings, while pitching in fewer innings than in previous seasons).
The future is an open book, but to pass on a chance to have a pitcher the caliber of Peavy just doesn’t seem like the good move to me.
By TennesseePaul
November 8, 2008 8:09 PM | Link to this
I know this team is in a tight spot when it comes to starting pitching, but sheeeesh. According to ESPN’s Hot Stove section for the Atlanta Braves the number four starting pitcher is Greg Norton. I didn’t think it was that tight.
Lew: So supposing we’re in a two year plan, if we can get pitchers like Lowe and Vasquez
Right here I would just as easily go for Peavy. If the Braves are indeed in a two year plan (which may just be the case, but not by choice, if this off season doesn’t provide everything they hope) then going for Peavy makes even more sense than signing Lowe and acquiring Vazquez. Hudson has a mutual option for 2010 at 12 million. Now I could be wrong, but when I read that, it implies to me that Hudson could turn down his end of the bargain and be free agent, as described here. So there is no guarantee that Hudson will be around in 2010.
With that in mind, a rotation of Lowe, Vazquez, Hanson and Jurrjens isn’t that impressive. Sorry, by then Vazquez is 33 and still not that good, and Lowe will be 37.
However, in a two year approach, a rotation including Jurrjens, Peavy, and Hanson is a might bit better. And with two years you have ample time to acquire any hitting needs. Pitching, as we all know, is at a premium every year. So, perhaps I’m way off here, but it would seem best to acquire the top shelf pitching when ever possible.
When the Braves acquired Greg Maddux, he was the same age as Peavy is today.
When Smoltz was 27, as Peavy was this past season, he had a 6-10 record and had given up homers at a faster rate than he had over his prior career (going from giving up 1 every 12 innings in his career up until then and then having a losing season and giving up 1 every 9 innings, while pitching in fewer innings than in previous seasons).
The future is an open book, but to pass on a chance to have a pitcher the caliber of Peavy just doesn’t seem like the good move to me.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 8, 2008 8:15 PM | Link to this
Go VORP yourself? Hey, that’s my line. Give it back Lew!
WOW , what a game between Alabama and LSU. I loved every minute of it.
look, if Peavy ends up with the Cubbies, it’s not the end of the world. The Braves will find some pitching somewhere, they always do. Whether it’s through the draft, free agency or trade, they always find a way.
25 million per season for one pitcher in this financial climate. Major league baseball has lost it’s ever loving mind.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 8, 2008 8:17 PM | Link to this
10Paul—
Greg Norton as our #4 SP?
Sheeeeeeeeeesh!
: )
By johnny mac
November 8, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this
That rug really tied the room together.
By Wayne
November 8, 2008 8:21 PM | Link to this
Peavy or no Peavy, let’s just get on with it.
Go offer Escobar, Morton and Hernandez to the Giants for Matt Cain. See if that get’s Kevin Towers attention.
Then we can get on with trying to figure out how we can swing a deal for Ryan Freel to complete our lineup!
(only kidding about the Freel part)
By cooper
November 8, 2008 8:23 PM | Link to this
Vaz is a decoy and should be avoided.
CC is likely a $25mm man but there is no cost to inquire about him. Seems silly to assume the rumor mill is true and that he wants to play for the Yankees.
He may not be as greedy as everyone assumes.
Not likely for the Braves but why not make a call.
By Wayne
November 8, 2008 8:27 PM | Link to this
And I don’t think some of you folks are looking at what a pitcher like Vazquez could do for a team like the Braves.
If our offense picks up in 2008, a guy like Vazquez keeps you in games. He gives you a shot if you score 3-4 or more runs. He also gives you strong innings, with a lot of K’s.
A guy like that would have been a godsend on our club last year. I don’t doubt in the NL if he would have a better ERA.
Is he your ace, nah. He is a helluva lot more proven that Morton, Reyes or Hanson. We know those guys have potentially a higher ceiling that Vazquez, but who knows what to expect from them for the next 2-3 years.
Short of an injury, which he has never had, we know what Vazquez can give us.
We could sure do a lot worse. (how many innings will Hampton or Glavine give us in 2009?)
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 8:29 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH: You’re right about ‘09, of course.
Think about it, those of you who advocate a rebuilding project aimed at the future and not at 2009: Do you really, when you give it any thought at all, believe there’s even the slightest chance the Braves would sacrifice 2009, a season that will possibly be Cox’s last, and Wren’s second season as Braves GM and third as a major league GM (his one-year Orioles stint didn’t go well, and last year … well, you may have heard).
Not to mention how Braves officials want/need(?) to stem the attendance decline before it becomes alarming, especially when it might already be damaged in 2009 by the poor economy.
Hey, there’s an ad slogan waiting to happen: Hey folks, times are tough, but come out and pay major-league prices watching us rebuild with an eye toward 2010!
By Lew
November 8, 2008 8:29 PM | Link to this
Steve-I just don’t have the confidence in Morton that you do and I don’t see him averaging the IP of Vasquez for a couple years or more (though I’m not ready to count him out, either). I already factored Hanson into the equation.
Vasquez is steady and predictable in his performance. He continually eats innings (200+ in 8 of last 9 years and 198 in the 9th season). He has a decent WHIP and a 2-1 K to BB ratio. I think he would be a good fit and $11.5 mil is a realistic amount for a pitcher who eats the number of innings he does. He has averaged 6.1 innings per start throughout his career and he has a career 4.32 ERA , while not incredible, should equate to a quality start (yes, I’m aware of the flawed nature of the QS, but…it does show a point of departure, anyway), which would keep us in most games. At 32, he is not quite to the point of a major decline because of age-you just THINK he’s old since he’s been around forever.
I’m not saying he would be an ace or the answer to all of our problems, but would be a good addition for a team with chronic back end of rotation problems and would go a good ways toward saving our bullpen some stress, wear and tear, which has bitten us in the butt way too often in recent times.
By ColoradoBravesFan
November 8, 2008 8:30 PM | Link to this
PLease do not trade Escobar
how good is Escober
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 8:33 PM | Link to this
JC from UT: I listed in the original blog above a half-dozen or so options the Braves could/would probably explore for SS if Yunel is traded. I can’t narrow it down a lot further without simply guessing, because first we need to know if the Braves are going to make strong pushes for a few of those tradeable shortstop (they’re not going to do that until they know if they’re trading Yunel) or until we see where the market is going with the likes of Furcal and Renteria.
By cooper
November 8, 2008 8:33 PM | Link to this
DOB - do you think if Flowers stays with ATL (not traded) this winter he will have a shot at backup C and perhaps spot starts at 1B?
I would rather have him out there to spell McCann, pinch hit and play a little 1B if Kotch needs a night off.
Sammons looked like an empty vessel out there in 08 and Corky well - wow that was a failure.
By Braveheart
November 8, 2008 8:36 PM | Link to this
Cool to hear that it somewhat matters to pros how big their catchers are. I always felt the same thing in my amateur days. I was never the greatest strike thrower but if you gave me a tall, thick, broad shouldered dude back there, I always felt good, always felt like the strike zone went from his shoulders to his knee caps, as if it fooled the ump into giving me a bigger zone. Whether that was true or not I dunno. It doesn’t really matter whether it was true though. All that matters is that it made me feel more comfortable and confident with their big ole arses back there. Those little sleek, narrow-shouldered, tiny-booty catchers always made it feel so much harder to get a strike. The difference between a big catcher and small sleek one to me was like the difference between using a sofa or a folding chair as a strike zone. Ah, whatever. Nice to hear that i wasn’t all crazy and that pros feel more comfortable with big ole catchers as well.
By Lew
November 8, 2008 8:38 PM | Link to this
Coach-It’s a good line, no matter the attribution.
TenPaul-I’m just concerned with two factors in any deal for Peavy. 1.Injury potential-I really have misgivings here. and 2. Cost/benefit.
I’m not sure we can get two front line pitchers and a power hitting outfielder. If we have to go out and get a shortstop, there’s no way in hell we get what we need. I just don’t see it happening. People keep talking about trading all these players, not paying heed to the fact they all need to be replaced in addition to our current needs. The House Wren’s task is daunting enough without making it virtually impossible.
Like I said-losing Tim Hudson for the season really VORPed us.
By Lew
November 8, 2008 8:41 PM | Link to this
I forgot-as to the mutual option on Huddie’s contract-just go ahead and sign him up for another 3 or 4 year deal. What with the surgery being over and done by then and the fact he doesn’t really have a stressful motion (I don’t think HE was the only one surprised at the injury) and stays in pretty good shape, I think it would be a worthy investment.
By Lew
November 8, 2008 8:44 PM | Link to this
DOB-Hell no, Wren won’t come out and say it’s a rebuilding year (actually calling it rebuilding is a bit over the top) and shouldn’t, but it may work out that way whether intentional or not.
By Robert
November 8, 2008 8:50 PM | Link to this
DOB
Can you give a percentage on the chances that Tyler Flowers breaks camp with the Braves this Spring.
By RDub
November 8, 2008 8:51 PM | Link to this
I think its been said in the past, could the braves require that Khalil Greene be sent along in the deal if Escobar is traded. I know not good batting numbers but a solid defensive player..what are his contract numbers?
By chuckw/deadjournalist
November 8, 2008 8:58 PM | Link to this
Why not Aaron Harang?
I have read or heard nothing to indicate that the Reds would be open to move Aaron Harang, but if they are, I would love for the Braves to target this guy - especially if a deal for Peavy isn’t worked out.
He’s got two years left on his deal, he’s coming off of a less-than-stellar season, but he has been a well-above average starter for the last five years. He was fourth in the Cy Young in ‘07. He has averaged around a 4/1 K/BB ratio and won would have to think he would see some improvement moving out of the cracker box in Cincinnati.
He’s only 30 and would probably cost the team slightly less in talent to acquire. Would the Reds needs math the Braves trade pieces? Maybe with some starting prospects, one of the CF prospect and maybe another part.
Again, the Reds may have no desire to move him, but if so he’d be a great addition at the top of the rotation.
By semiballcoach
November 8, 2008 9:03 PM | Link to this
flowers needs to play every day…nothing to be gained by letting him play twice a week
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 9:03 PM | Link to this
Vazquez has had one good season in the past four, his 15-8 with a 3.74 ERA, which was very good.
The other three seasons: 11-15 with a 4.42 ERA (league avg ERA was 4.44 that season), 11-12 with a 4.84 ERA (league ERA 4.75), 12-16 with a 4.67 ERA (league ERA 4.57).
Mediocrity defined.
By TennesseePaul
November 8, 2008 9:03 PM | Link to this
I’d agree with Lew on that 8:44 post. There is no way they will say “We’re aiming for 2010”. But it could be things just don’t go well this offseason. It could be Peavy goes to the Cubs. It could be Ludwick goes to the Rockies. It could be Lowe signs with the Yankees. It could be no one wants to trade what we need. It could be this team is only able to acquire one real piece to the puzzle and settles for fill in players, thus making the realization of a competitive team a little further down the road.
I certainly hope not.
I’d love to see Wren pull off a trade for Peavy, acquire and real solid #2 or #3 starter in addtion, pick up a monster bat for the outfield, not give up Yunel or KJ, retain all top prospects, and sign Tazawa.
But honestly, that seems like a real tall order in general and even more difficult in one offseason.
By mike p
November 8, 2008 9:06 PM | Link to this
DOB, We need to get Peavy right? If we don’t, is it realistic to think we can get two of the better free agent pitchers (Lowe, Dempster, Burnett). I think getting Peavy is almost a must. Can we sign a power hitting left fielder or is that coming via a trade? We need to not worry about losing Yunel and Kelly, their contributions have led to how many NL EAST titles? We had Blauser and Lemke in our middle infield for years FOR DEFENSIVE PURPOSES. We had Walt Weiss and Quilvio Veras in our middle infield. We need defensive pieces here to aid our pitching staff who can contribute offensively in a timely manner. Stop putting such an emphasis on pieces of our puzzle who haven’t earned anything in the majors yet such as kelly and esco. I’d rather someone who seems to have a good attitude and work ethic (Kelly) than someone running for the money after a couple ok years (esco) I need to go have more drinks. Cheers
By Lew
November 8, 2008 9:10 PM | Link to this
I know when I’m beat.
We will acquire Jake Peavy for somewhere less than the National debt (read half of our farm system) and Yunel Escobar. He will win 20-25 games and never miss another game. His arm will be enshrined in Dr. Andrews’ office display case.
Then we’ll go out and outbid the Yankees for Derek Lowe. Likely he’ll win 20 games, too.
We’ll then acquire Rafael Furcal, who will gladly come back to Atlanta for 4 years at $ 8-10 mil per year, play like he was ten years younger and never have a twinge of back pain ever again. He will also steal 57 bases every year-unless we just go with Omar Infante, who will be the second coming of Derek Jeter..
Then we’ll trade Kelly Johnson for Ludwick who will hit 30 Home Runs a year for us for the next five years. Martin Prado will take over 2B and field the position like Mark Lemke or Glenn Hubbard, hit .325 every year and develop a power stroke.
We won’t need a bench anymore, so we won’t have to replace Prado or Infante. Greg Norton should be enough of a bench.
Of course this is all much more realistic than anything I’ve proposed and will definitely lead to World Dominance and another 14 year string of success. How could I be so delusional?
By Joe M.
November 8, 2008 9:12 PM | Link to this
Cubbies just upped the ante in their offer. Towers was raving about Hendry on the radio today, and hinted that Peavy would be a Cub. I don’t think Peavy wants to be a Brave now that he can go to an instant contender in the Cubbies. You guys need to give it up, no one wants to play for the loser Braves-you will never be able to compete with the Phillies who have one of the best lineups in the league coupled with speed, and the Mets who do not seem to have payroll constrictions. Peavy WILL be a CUB. Bank on it.
Yeah right. You’re delusional. In fact, I’m saving your comment for when Peavy does NOT become a Cub. When Peavy is not traded to the Cubs, I do hope you’ll come back so I can rub it in your face.
By Wayne
November 8, 2008 9:14 PM | Link to this
Dave and all. My contention is that a league average guy would have truly helped our team last year, and with a rotation of Peavy/Cain/Lowe, Jurrjens, Hanson, Hampton and Vazquez would keep you in most games.
In 2008, we had guys with potential, that some nights looked good, other nights, not so good: Morton, Reyes, Campillo.
All have potential, but what Vazquez has is experience and a track record.
To a lesser degree, a guy like Garland, while not as sexy of a choice, would have also been very helpful in our 2008 rotation.
Not every team will have a Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz and Avery rotation.
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 9:19 PM | Link to this
We’ve got the Phillies-Braves battery of Tyson Brummett and Tyler Flowers tonight. Brummett’s got good stuff.
Robert, I don’t really think there’s much chance at all of Flowers breaking camp with the Braves. I can’t see them keeping him as a backup catcher. He needs to keep developing as a catcher, because his value keeps growing if he keeps slugging and keeps improving behind the plate.
By Deep Throat
November 8, 2008 9:23 PM | Link to this
dirtyfrank is most likely lying through his teeth. Any time you see someone talking about a trade rumor they “heard on the radio”, they’re probably lying.
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 9:24 PM | Link to this
Wayne, of course he would have been helpful in 2008. Any pitcher who could have made 30 starts or pitched 170 innings would have been helped, much less one who pitched 200.
But are you saying Braves should have known all those pitchers they had would get hurt and that they should have had Vazquez and his salary waiting in the wings?
And now, you want them to sign him with that salary, when they’re looking to add two guys better than he is?
By Corb
November 8, 2008 9:31 PM | Link to this
One word: Hindsight
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 9:31 PM | Link to this
Lew, regarding your 9:10 p.m.: Actually, I don’t think the Braves would be expecting 20-25 wins from Peavy. Just an average season by his standards would be quite sufficient.
Oh, and as for this one:
DOB-Hell no, Wren won’t come out and say it’s a rebuilding year (actually calling it rebuilding is a bit over the top) and shouldn’t, but it may work out that way whether intentional or not
Or it might just be a crappy, injury-riddled year, like last season. You never know. But the Braves are certainly trying to shore up holes and make a run in 2009. Whether they can remains to be seen, obvioiusly. But one thing’s certain: They’re not looking at it as a multi-year rebuilding. They want to win. Now.
As I typed that, Tyler Flowers grounded into an inning-ending double play when his bat split.
After two here in lovely Mesa, there’s no score.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 8, 2008 9:37 PM | Link to this
Do you think they will get two pitchers better than Vazquez if they don’t land Peavy? I think it will be tough…
By Efrim
November 8, 2008 9:37 PM | Link to this
Personally, I like Vasquez, but if the Braves trade for Jake Peavy, I would prefer them to sign a free agent or two. If the Peavy deal goes down, we still need a starter, right handed hitting OF, and now shortstop. Braves are going to have to take a gamble in free agency. I’m pretty sure they are willing to do so. You can’t trade to fill ALL of these holes, because it is going to hurt the farm, even if you don’t deal any top prospects.
By Salty Dawg
November 8, 2008 9:41 PM | Link to this
I really don’t see the big deal about Peavy et al at this point. Hampton is healthy, Smoltz will be ready in the spring, and Huddy will make a super hero-like miraculous recovery 6 months ahead of schedule. Francouer will finally settle in and hit 30/.300 next year. McCann will stay healthy all year and so will Chipper. Shaffer is going to be the NL rookie of the year in center field. Kelly Johnson will finally develop decent range at second and will stop being so flaky at the plate. This team is ready to go as-is. We don’t need to make any trades and we don’t need to sign any free agents.
By Wayne
November 8, 2008 9:43 PM | Link to this
Dave I am not saying make Vazquez your focal point. I am saying that if all the others you are targeting either sign with other teams, or if you get to a point where your salary limits are being stretched, Vazquez could be a better option than just hoping guys like Campillo or Reyes or Morton can come through and be successful.
Maybe they will, but Vazquez has a track record.
That’s all I am saying.
By Kyle
November 8, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this
DOB, Sarah on MLBtraderumors.com seems to be giving you a hard time, calling this post “long and detailed” over and over again. Don’t worry, I still love your posts, no matter how long and detailed they are.
By Interested Observer
November 8, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this
If the Cardinals are willing to trade Ludwick for one year of Matt Holliday as reported, what does that say about their opinion of Ludwick?
By Wayne
November 8, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this
This is all very academic, as we rely on our leader to try to diseminate nuggets of info from inside the Braves organization to whet our appetite for hot stove vittles.
In the end, unfortunately, Frank Wren has yet to call me for my opinion on what he should do. I fear that my mortgage will remain, and that the MIB/BBQ opening day party will probably not happen.
What could have been…..
(Frank, if your listening, check our Matt Cain. He might be a better catch than Peavy.)
:-)
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 8, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this
Is FW still in Arizona?
By Wayne
November 8, 2008 9:53 PM | Link to this
Who is this Sarah, and why is she saying these “long and detailed” things about our buddy Dave??
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 8, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this
*Interested Observer *, it may say nothing about their opinion of Ludwick. It may say a lot about their opinion of Holliday and their belief they may be able to sign him to a long term contract.
But, I do think they want to sell high (as has been mentioned in previous blogs) on Ludwick.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 8, 2008 9:56 PM | Link to this
I wonder if Ms. Green over at that site realizes DOB has forgotten more about baseball and covering a team than she will ever learn?
By Lew
November 8, 2008 9:57 PM | Link to this
DOB-Well, As a Braves’ Fan I sure hope it all turns out as well as everyone expects it will. Ain’t holding my breath and turning Deep Purple, either.
I realize last year was a fluke and likely to not happen again. I’m also pretty sure Francoeur will have a great comeback season. I’m that positive. However, I think the needs of the Braves are big. Pitching, especially good pitching, is at a premium-hard to find at the best of times. I hope Wren is able to pull it all off. I have no doubt he will try and he has impressed with the deals he made last year. I’m just not sure that he or anyone else can get all we need.
Time will tell. I will be thrilled if it all works out. Like I said-BBQ Crow can’t be all that bad.. If it does work exactly as planned, Wren should be Executive of the Year and I will never doubt again. I will return to the Bright Side of the Force and foresake Nathan.
By Mike S
November 8, 2008 9:57 PM | Link to this
I see all of these proposed rotations for 2009 and 2010 that are all RHP’s. Anybody worried about this? DOB, do you think we’d go with a rotation of all RH starters? Would that maybe make Hampton more desirable to re-sign? (Or maybe Jojo can see the light and become consistent)
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 9:59 PM | Link to this
Kyle, writing “long and detailed” isn’t considered a “diss” to us of a certain age, believe it or not.
By Efrim
November 8, 2008 10:04 PM | Link to this
Interested Observer
If the Cardinals are willing to trade Ludwick for one year of Matt Holliday as reported, what does that say about their opinion of Ludwick?
Well, they get to upgrade and get Holliday, and don’t have to throw a big prospects package at Colorado. Again, the Cardinals are making it obvious that they are selling high on Ludwick. I like him, but I wouldn’t trade Kelly Johnson for him. And I think it is crazy that we would even have to add more for a trade like that.
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 10:05 PM | Link to this
Tigers 3B prospect Jeff Larish just hit a BOMB that bounced to the top of the grass berm beyond left field. Gives him five homers and a league-high 27 RBI.
By Serge
November 8, 2008 10:14 PM | Link to this
The other three seasons: 11-15 with a 4.42 ERA (league avg ERA was 4.44 that season), 11-12 with a 4.84 ERA (league ERA 4.75), 12-16 with a 4.67 ERA (league ERA 4.57)
If thats mediocre. I shudder what to think about Chuck James, JoJo Reyes, and Charlie Morton.
By johnny mac
November 8, 2008 10:24 PM | Link to this
Like OMG I can’t handle it anymore cause like if Ryan Ludwick goes to Rockies it would be devastating and just too much for me too handle. What would we do with out Ludwick next year? We might like be screwed. Your killin me baseball offseason. Please let it end!!!
By Atown
November 8, 2008 10:25 PM | Link to this
DOB,
I was recently in Phoenix and ate dinner at Denardos in downtown. Fantastic steak,great wine list and cool vibe. I’ll be back soon; Do you have a personal favorite in the Phoenix/Scottsdale that you recommend?
By Joe M.
November 8, 2008 10:31 PM | Link to this
Look at Ludwick’s stats this season. Now look at them from 2007. Or any year prior to 2008. He is over 30 too. Screams “career year” to me. I wouldn’t be heart broken if the Braves do not get Ryan Ludwick this offseason.
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 10:35 PM | Link to this
I’ve got a feeling the Braves probably aren’t going to be held up much longer in the Peavy matter. I think that if something else comes up here soon, they’re not going to hesitate to pull the trigger. Can’t risk losing out on other pitchers or players because they’re waiting for the Padres to make a decision.
By Seth
November 8, 2008 10:37 PM | Link to this
SAVE YUNEL!!!!!!!!!!
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 10:41 PM | Link to this
Atown, it’s such a spread-out area, I’ve probably never eate at the same place twice out here. I’ve never eaten downtown Phoenix anywhere.
Just had a great lunch today in the little downtown of Mesa, at a Mexican restaurant called Mangos. Fish tacos. Outstanding.
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 10:46 PM | Link to this
Serge, Chuck James was bad in his last year before surgery, Jo-Jo Reyes has been a big disappointment but has barely one season in the bigs, and Charlie Morton is a kid with a half-season in the majors.
Why on earth are you comparing any of them to Vazquez?
And did you see the ERAs I posted for Vazquez? In three of the last four seasons, he’s had an ERA equal or higher to the average ERA of the league. That, by its very definition, is mediocre, is it not? Middle of the pack? Considering his salary and his ERA, looks pretty mediocre to me.
By Steve from OH
November 8, 2008 10:47 PM | Link to this
Joe M:
Agreed that it won’t be the end of the world if we don’t get him. You might be selling him a bit short, I think (he is a good player), in that he always has been a good SLG guy, which we need. The OBP’s are very hit-and-miss throughout his career though. We shouldn’t offer Kelly for him, but we should try to work something out anyway, I think (Martin Prado anyone? No? Just checking). I don’t think it’s a stretch to think he can put up a .280/.345/.510 season, which would be massive improvement over Gregor Blanco’s .333 SLG debacle last year.
If we don’t get Ludwick (not that we should), who do we go and get? I’m fresh out of ideas, which probably isn’t good, because we really need a LF bad. Anyone got anything? Please don’t say Juan Rivera.
By Andy K.
November 8, 2008 10:47 PM | Link to this
DOB: Is Frank Wren still there in AZ after watching Hanson pitch? Or did he go back to Atlanta because he’s still waist deep in the Peavy talks?
By Steve from OH
November 8, 2008 10:49 PM | Link to this
DOB, what makes you say that? You wouldn’t happen to have a little birdie in your ear saying that, would you? (he says, only half joking). Sorry to pry, but I had to ask.
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 10:51 PM | Link to this
Here’s an under-the-radar Braves prospect to keep an eye on: Matt Young. The outfielder has really impressed everyone out here, and came into tonight’s game hitting .346 with 10 extra-base hits (two homers) and 19 RBI, with a .973 OPS and only seven strikeouts in 78 at-bats.
Wheeler raved about him, and everyone here talks about how hard the dude plays and what a great kid he is.
Only thing he didn’t do at Mississippi this season was hit for power (just three homers). Had 11 triples, 30 steals, and team-high .289 average and .384 OBP.
By Wayne
November 8, 2008 10:52 PM | Link to this
When I travel, unless I am with big-shots from my company or with my customers, I tend to eat at the “hole-in-the-wall” places. Best food, and helps to maintain my persona as a cheap-skate.
Obviously, in Arizona, it’s Mexican! (of course, I seek out Mexican restaurants everywhere I go!) BBQ is a close second, but sometimes hard to get good “Q” out west.
Dave, per your 10:35 post, that’s good news!
By Efrim
November 8, 2008 10:53 PM | Link to this
DOB
I’ve got a feeling the Braves probably aren’t going to be held up much longer in the Peavy matter. I think that if something else comes up here soon, they’re not going to hesitate to pull the trigger. Can’t risk losing out on other pitchers or players because they’re waiting for the Padres to make a decision.
But I am guessing that Kelly Johnson would be held back just in case the Padres actually do take the Escobar deal. Just an assumption there.
Also, is Frank Wren concerned of trading too much of the farm system in seperate deals to fill those holes(I know the top prospects aren’t available)?
By Kevin
November 8, 2008 10:53 PM | Link to this
To be fair you should point out that Vazquez pitches in the most hitter friendly park in the AL.
By Ryan S
November 8, 2008 10:55 PM | Link to this
DOB, Is there a chance that the Giants will trade Matt Cain? What would it take to get him?
By Leigh
November 8, 2008 10:56 PM | Link to this
DOB, if you want so real good mexican food in Mesa head over to Rosa’s at the NW corner of Mesa Dr. and University. They have the best tomatillo salsa(green) I have ever had. Also try the Habanero salsa but be prepared to shoot fire out your a* later; however believe it or not it is worth it. I live in Gilbert so if you have any questions about the area feel free to ask.
By Wayne
November 8, 2008 10:56 PM | Link to this
Texas Tech sure looks good tonight! Crabtree is the real deal.
Dave Do you think that Matt Cain is on the Braves radar? What would it take to get them to let him go.
The Giants are talking like they want to develop their young players, and some think they might make a play for CC. In looking at Cain’s first three full season, they are very close to being comparable to Peavy’s.
He is 24, signed through 2010, with an option for 2011. Might be a bit much to crown him as a staff ace at this point in his career though.
By Joe M.
November 8, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this
I’ve got a feeling the Braves probably aren’t going to be held up much longer in the Peavy matter. I think that if something else comes up here soon, they’re not going to hesitate to pull the trigger. Can’t risk losing out on other pitchers or players because they’re waiting for the Padres to make a decision.
That is almost exactly what Ken Rosenthal (go look for it on FoxSports.com’s MLB page) wrote today; that the Braves are growing impatient.
Steve, Blanco actually slugged .309 this past season….which is the worst slugging percentage for an Atlanta Braves’ outfielder (minimum 300 PAs) since 1978.
By Efrim
November 8, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH
If we don’t get Ludwick (not that we should), who do we go and get? I’m fresh out of ideas, which probably isn’t good, because we really need a LF bad. Anyone got anything? Please don’t say Juan Rivera.
Same dude. But it is a very important part of the equation. Especially if we are dealing Yunel and, probably, replacing him with an inferior offensive player.
By Wayne
November 8, 2008 11:02 PM | Link to this
Did I read somewhere recently that Matt Young was getting some innings at second base? Maybe it was a dream…..
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 11:02 PM | Link to this
Andy K., Frank Wren was here until yesterday. Left last night.
By Serge
November 8, 2008 11:02 PM | Link to this
Hes done most of that in the American League. While giving his teams 200 plus innings each year. Hes a durable talented midle of the rotaitons starter. Who eats innings. Isnt expensive and has top of the rotation stuff.
Bobby Cox once called him “Mr Cy Young” Sorry is he an “ace” probably not. But heck no hes not mediocre and would be better than anybody not named Jair Jurjens on our current staff.
By Bubdylan
November 8, 2008 11:03 PM | Link to this
DOB Took a shot in the dark (well, after hearing the blurb) and bought the tune No More Buffalo. Happy I did. Melodically, that’s exactly the sort of thing by him that hits me hardest. The meditative ones, I guess is the way to say it. There’s probably a simpler way to say it. The slow ones?
By Kris in NC
November 8, 2008 11:04 PM | Link to this
Knowing DOB is out in Arizona watching some of the Braves prospects, ESPN’s bottomline has been saying that a deal will happen within the next week and it is between the Braves and Cubs.
Wren probably is putting the final touches on the package that could possibly get us that #1 ace we need so he can start to work on getting us the other starter and our power hitting LF’er.
If we hold on to Hanson and Heyward, then Wren did what he said he would do, not give up Hanson which is who the Padres wanted in the deal.
As for this other trade rumor being floating around, using Ludwick as the centerpiece of the deal, who in the world is the GM in St. Louis? Ludwick has one good year and they are going to use him to get Holliday for possibly 1 year before he hits the FA market. We know Boras and how he works. He will get Holliday to test the FA market to see what he is worth and just how big of a contract he will get.
What is your thoughts on this possible deal involving Ryan Ludwick for Matt Holliday, DOB?
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 11:10 PM | Link to this
Wayne, Matt Young has played one game at 2B out here, 17 in the outfield.
And I’m with you on finding the hole-in-the-wall joints for eating on the road. With an occasional steakhouse mixed in. But for BBQ, Mexican, pizza … usually the little mom-and-pop joints are the best, in my opinion.
By David O'Brien
November 8, 2008 11:12 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan, that’s one of my favorites of McMurtry. Also, download Levelland if you don’t have it.
I’ll do a list in a bit. Gotta get out of here, go to my hotel, get some food. Fading fast.
By kirknga
November 8, 2008 11:12 PM | Link to this
Well like Lew I have given in and accepted that the Braves will trade Escobar. I can’t shake the feeling that trade as presently constructed is a big mistake.
Since I’m a Braves fan first and foremost I want to be wrong. I hope that Wren and those of you here pushing hard for Peavy are correct in all your assumptions.
I think the potential pitfalls of this trade have been downplayed, if not ignored.
With what the Braves are giving up in Escobar, Morton, Gorky,etc.. Peavy had better stay healthy and Hanson must be be a stud.
This will either be an outstanding trade(for both teams), or for the Braves it could be worse than the Len Barker fiasco.
I like the idea of trading for Hardy, though I bet it will cost the Braves Flowers and more.
I’ll miss Escobar’s moxie and attitude. Yes he needs to hold it together better, but I like that the guy is a warrior. He wanted to play for the Braves and when given the chance he played well enough to get himself traded.
By Steve from OH
November 8, 2008 11:14 PM | Link to this
JoeM, that is bad. I mean, really bad.
I rag on Gregor too much, though. Dude did post a solid OBP in his 1st pro season. Can we give Gregor some of the stuff that Canseco was taking?
By Wayne
November 8, 2008 11:22 PM | Link to this
In years past, a team could get by with a weak player in their lineup, but not so much anymore. Blanco is just not good enough to stay in the lineup full-time.
kirk I don’t think there is a single one of us that wants to see Escobar traded. Facing reality though, who else do we have of significance we can deal, that has not been designated as untouchable?
Like you state, we have to trust the judgement of the Braves braintrust.
By Andy K.
November 8, 2008 11:28 PM | Link to this
With the way DOB’s been talking lately, it seems like Frank Wren has a good offer on the table, and is getting frustrated because the Padres are holding out for the Cubs or Dodgers to blow them out of the water. The Dodgers just won’t happen, because it’d be a horrible idea to trade a player of Peavy’s caliber to a inter-division team. Also, the Cubs most likely won’t wow the Pads because they don’t have the ML ready players like Escobar or Morton that the Padres are seeking. that leaves the Braves as the best fit out of the remaining three. Hopefully Towers will just pull the trigger So something’s going to happen real soon, because I can imagine FW is getting fed up, and is about to call Towers with a take it or leave it scenario.
By chris
November 8, 2008 11:28 PM | Link to this
The Giants aren’t trading Matt Cain, because he is only 24, plain and simple. The bloggers here, who have been clamoring for this, need to stop asking DOB about this and have to let that go. Peavy is much more attainable because he is 3 years older, and already has a major league contract, so in the teams eyes, he is easier to move. Teams that can afford their arb-eligibles, who are good players as well, don’t give those player up. Plus for Matt Cain, you would need the proposed package in the Peavy deal plus one of those “untouchables” that you also don’t want us to trade to start. I agree we shouldn’t be held up in the Peavy stuff. But we also have to look at this with some realism. Because we have been losing for the past 3 seasons, isn’t likely we’d have to pay FA pitchers MORE than we’d like to secure their services here? I think Wren is doing the right thing by attempting to acquire Peavy. The Free Agents we are looking at, are looking at this situation because it would increase our chances of acquiring one of them.. It may not deter any of them from signing with us but having him here would bring more optimism to the team. The thought of having a true ace, a #1 in his prime, is something to get excited about. It may cost us Escobar but if you add a Perez, Olsen, Dempster or Burnett, along with Peavy….hey, we can start to look more formidable.
By kirknga
November 8, 2008 11:33 PM | Link to this
Wayne, I guess I’m being sensitive, but I haven’t seen much regret about trading away Escobar.
And as long as we’ve been talking about Peavy, there has been very little discussion about the risk the Braves are taking.
It makes me nervous when people talk this trade as if it were a sure thing.
By N Nine
November 8, 2008 11:33 PM | Link to this
So i guess that KJ for Ludwick is all but gone now, since Holliday is a much better player.
I hope Cards do get him because we can’t afford Phillies plugging him between Utley and Howard.
I say a Peavy trade happens sometime this week..It has to right?
Twins want Yunel? What are they going to offer?
By N Nine
November 8, 2008 11:36 PM | Link to this
Brewers hire former Mets manager Randolph as bench coach
Where is Yost? Are we going to find a place for Yost?
By Serge
November 8, 2008 11:38 PM | Link to this
If Yunel didnt have that Cuban “moxie” would people here really care if he was dealt? Great defender. Never has hit well enough for this “elite” status many give him. Not in the minors and other than half a season last year not in the majors either. What you saw in 08 is what you get, and Great defending ok hitting short stops for Cy Young Winners are deals you make 10 times out of 10
I Think Escobar just like Frenchy are both examples of perception vs reality. Players seen as much greater than they really are.
By kirknga
November 8, 2008 11:39 PM | Link to this
While I agree that the Giants are likely reluctant to trade Cain, I doubt seriously that he would cost more than Peavy.
Sure the Giants would have a high asking price, but Cain is not in the category of a Peavy, Sabathia, Santana. I don’t think he is on the same level as Harden or Harren either. I think he would command about what it took to get Blanton.
By Roman Gal
November 8, 2008 11:45 PM | Link to this
We have to trust the judgement of the Braves braintrust. Wayne
But I Don’t Wanna!!
By Not A Teen
November 8, 2008 11:45 PM | Link to this
DOB - do you think if Flowers stays with ATL (not traded) this winter he will have a shot at backup C and perhaps spot starts at 1B?Cooper
you can’t possibly think that they are going to bump a kid from low A ball to the majors to sit on his azz 75% of the time, can you? How incredibly stupid do you think the Braves are? Boy that sure would advance his abilities wouldn’t it? What are you, 13?
By Wayne
November 8, 2008 11:47 PM | Link to this
kirk I personally think Cain would bring more than Blanton, and almost as much as Haren and Peavy. Just my opinion, based on nothing but intuition.
As for the discussion of all the downside of trading for Peavy, I think that has been discussed an incredible amount on the blog. You probably just missed most of it.
That horse is now a greasy spot on the highway, waiting for a gully washer to clean it off.
I am not as certain as chris is about the Giants not dealing Cain. They have some very good arms, and I think if they were wowed by an offer that would sold 2-3 problems they have, they would listen.
By N Nine
November 8, 2008 11:48 PM | Link to this
Great defender. Never has hit well enough for this “elite” status many give him Serge
Yunel just finished his FIRST full season. How high is your expectations from a rookie? Yunel is athletically amazing. The more days pass
the more attached i feel to Yunel.
I will miss you Yunel :(
By Not A Teen
November 8, 2008 11:50 PM | Link to this
Can you give a percentage on the chances that Tyler Flowers breaks camp with the Braves this SpringRobert
Cripes, you know as little about baseball as that Cooper kid don’t you? Are all the morons out tonight? 100% chance that he does not start the season in Atlanta. Get in touch with reality why don’t you
By Alex
November 8, 2008 11:51 PM | Link to this
Haha, on ESPN they have GREG NORTON listed as our 4th starting pitcher.
By DUH
November 8, 2008 11:56 PM | Link to this
Who is this Sarah, and why is she saying these “long and detailed” things about our buddy Dave?
She’s a moron with ADD like all the younger generation. 2 minutes is absolute tops for most of them on any subject other than themselves.
By kirknga
November 9, 2008 12:00 AM | Link to this
Wayne, I haven’t read much discussion about the potential downside of this trade and I have read pretty much every comment on this blog for a long time. I follow this blog very closely though I might not say anything.
Sure there has been a stray comment or two about the potential for injury with every pitcher, but that’s about it.
I think having an open question at SS is a problem, but it seems SS’s abound!
I agree that Cain would cost slightly more than Blanton. But you don’t give a package sucg as the one we’re giving for Peavy for a guy that won 8 games last season!
By Wayne
November 9, 2008 12:03 AM | Link to this
Alex I hear Norton is quite a flame thrower!
Not a Teen Can you give me the percentage chance that Chipper Jones will start at third base for the Braves in 2009?
:-)
Lineup projections for 2009:
C Brian McCann 1B Freddie Freeman 2B Kelly Johnson SS Yunel Escobar 3B Jon Gilmore LF Jason Heyward CF Gorkys Hernandez RF Jordan Schafer
Can you give me the percentage that this will be our opening day lineup in 2009 please???
Come on folks, it’s called common sense.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 9, 2008 12:04 AM | Link to this
Kirknga, I’m with you. The first time I heard Jake Peavy’s name floated around in trade with the Braves, I wanted to grab the lighter fluid, set my hair on fire and run down the street screaming. I can’t really explain my feelings other than to say that was my gut reaction.
And believe you me, if the Braves fail to contend and end up having to put Chipper Jones on the trading block before the July 31st deadline, I’m gonna rip Frank Wren a brand new butt hole and scream for Bobby Cox to be fired irregardless of whether or not he retires at the end of the 2009 season.
I had the same gut feeling when Adam Wainwright and Jason Marquis were traded. By the way, the two of them have combined to go 92-71 since.
Basically, Wren and Cox had better kneel before the baseball Gods in supplication for a favorable outcome to this proposed trade. Otherwise, I’ll be bringing the tar and feathers and I won’t be alone, the rest of the Braves fan base will be right behind me.
So, lets all hope for a favorable outcome to this proposed trade, shan’t we?
By Wayne
November 9, 2008 12:04 AM | Link to this
Over under on a Peavy trade?
Tuesday, the 11th.
I say over….
By kirknga
November 9, 2008 12:06 AM | Link to this
Serge, I don’t think being from Cuba is relevant to anything as far as Escobar is concerned.
I don’t think anyone considers him an elite SS at this point, but he ranks 6th offensively among NL SS’s and 3rd defensively. Not elite, but not an open question either.
There’s a reason why he can be the centerpiece of a trade for an ace starter.
By kirknga
November 9, 2008 12:24 AM | Link to this
Coach I wasn’t thrilled with trading Wainwright either, but I can’t say I expected him to develop as quckly as he has with the Cardinals.
I think this trade is more on Wren than Cox. The only comment I’ve seen Bobby make was high praise for Escobar. Granted that could have been just helping to sell the package.
Wayne, I think the trade will happen by next weekend unless some other team like the BoSox decides to come in heavy with offer after the Braves, Cubs, and Dodgers offers have been firmly established.
I’ll be a bittersweet camper, but happy to move on to the filling the other needs as Peavy alone isn’t going to be enough lift the Braves into contention.
I wouldn’t be shocked to see him go to the Cubs either.
By Wayne
November 9, 2008 12:25 AM | Link to this
kirk I am not sure where you were when those discussions took place, but there are quite a few with reservations about the long term health of Peavy’s elbow from bloggers.
Not quite as many as the discussions from those who have doubts about dealing Escobar, due to his upside potential.
Personally, I wish our friend Coach would tone down the rhetoric. We are all fans of the same team. This trade if transacted has the potential to be fantastic, or it could be disasterous. Chances are it will be somewhere in between. Peavy, if obtained from the Padres, will probably be extremely successful. Chances are that Escobar will be a star in San Diego for years to come.
Guys, teams make their decisions based on knowledge they have gathered, knowing the risks. They base their moves on their organizations’ direction. The Braves have always done everyhing within their budget to win. All the b!tchin and moaing we do doesn’t matter.
So, Peavy or no Peavy, I am first a Braves fan. I can complain about their moves all I want, but in the end, it doesn’t really matter what I think, or what Kirk or Coach thinks.
So, we can talk about ripping new a-holes to Braves management, but I really don’t think they are worried about what we think.
So, can we get onto talking about what Ryan Freel could do for a team like the Braves!
Nite my friends…
:-)
By N Nine
November 9, 2008 12:26 AM | Link to this
Kirknga
I think there is a chance for him mature to an elite SS. He has the defensive skills. I think he will improve on the bat . He will be a top 5 SS one day. Do you disagree?
By Wayne
November 9, 2008 12:32 AM | Link to this
Guys, I think the downside of not dealing for Peavy is that I don’t see there being much excitement from some of the other FA pitchers to come to Atlanta.
If I really thought we had a chance to get Lowe, Burnett or Dempster, then I would be more adverse to trading Escobar for Peavy.
I think having a guy like Peavy might actually assist us in getting another mid rotation starter, or perhaps a FA outfielder with some pop.
Just another angle to the trade for Peavy.
I lied, when I said good night before.
Texas Tech sure looked good tonight!
By chris
November 9, 2008 12:35 AM | Link to this
I’d like to see us go after JJ Hardy as a replacement for Escobar. He was the 4th best Fielding SS in the NL(Pct. wise- he was 8th in the Majors), plus he’d more than make up for the loss of Escobar’s bat. Besides, they have an Escobar they can replace him with anyway, so they wont need ours.
By N Nine
November 9, 2008 12:39 AM | Link to this
Wayne
Glad you found second life on the evening!
It does look like a tough market with starters.
Seems like all the powerhouse teams are looking for pitching
Looks dim on acquiring Lowe, Burnett, cc, and even Dempster.
Looks like Peavy and TAZ or maybe another trade?
By N Nine
November 9, 2008 12:46 AM | Link to this
Chris
I strongly agree we need to visit that option.
By Wayne
November 9, 2008 12:49 AM | Link to this
N Nine Looks like we were basically saying the same thing, at roughly the same time. To be honest, if the Peavy trade does not happen, there could be some real positives come out of keeping Yunel.
I am torn to the point of being thankful that it is NOT me who has to pull the trigger on such a deal.
I remember in 2007, when we made the Tex trade. It broke my heart to send Salty, Harrison, Andrus and Perez packing. I understood why it was done, but it still hurt. I guess I will have similar feelings with almost every trade we make.
By kirknga
November 9, 2008 12:50 AM | Link to this
N Nine, no I don’t disagree at all. I think he will not hit for power and that will be his only short coming if you think 15-20 HR’s isn’t good enough.
But what I think we haven’t discussed much is that he seems to be a warrior. A gamer. Somebody that will develop into a leadership role once Chipper/Smoltz/Glavine are gone.
I don’t see that in a high degree in anyone else on the team. Escobar seems like he can back the passion up with his play at critical times. That is what I see him developing into.
Wayne, the Braves could sign any FA they wanted to sign. They just don’t want to go in that direction. I do think we’ll see them sign 1-2 FA’s this offseason because they may not be able to fill the remaining needs with what’s left over after trading for Peavy.
I see Ohman as sort of a bellwether. Are they willing to pay him the $3.5-4 million/year or not? If not, is it because they need that to sign a Lowe or Burnett, or is it because they are constitutionally opposed to investing that much in him. He was our JC Romero. The Phillies paid their guy, will the Braves pay theirs?
By CoochiePoo too
November 9, 2008 12:58 AM | Link to this
I had the same gut feeling when Adam Wainwright and Jason Marquis were tradedCoach
Jason Marquis? Damn man you really are as stupid as everybody on this board says, aren’t you? Jason Marquis????LOL
By Wayne
November 9, 2008 1:00 AM | Link to this
chris and N Nine
What would the Brewers want to deal Hardy? My guess would be Jurrjens.
What else do they need, besides starting pitching?
To do a deal with them, we would almost have to involve another team.
By N Nine
November 9, 2008 1:03 AM | Link to this
Wayne
It does sting a bit when you lose 5 guys that worked hard to be an Atlanta Brave.
I don’t look at Peavy deal as a TEX deal.
Tex was for only one year. Peavy will(hopefully) control a key position for years. The much needed ACE.
I think the big loss was Andrus. He has potential. Salty has faded a bit.
This “package” might have bigger stars departing.
I think positive like picturing Hanson,Heyward,Freeman, and Gorky/Schafer in a short period of time.
Our future is dandy.. Oh don’t we have the 6th pick next year? Very nice
Wayne, how about a drive to AZ to see DOB? aaa forget that last trip!
By nolie
November 9, 2008 1:06 AM | Link to this
I see Ohman as sort of a bellwether. Are they willing to pay him the $3.5-4 million/year or not?Wayne
I don’t think they will Wayne. I never have thought there was much chance of it happening. Just more than they have been willing to pay someone who probably isn’t even considered a season-long set-up guy. With the salaries of Soriano & Gonzo, which are also higher than usual, I will be pretty surprised if they do keep Ohman. I think they sould if they can afford it, but by the time he will want to sign they may not be finished with procuring all the other parts that they deem more important so they might hesitate.
By kirknga
November 9, 2008 1:07 AM | Link to this
Can we get Hardy? I would very much like to see that. But who’s left to trade?
For that matter, is there enough left to bring in that second starter and bat?
By chris
November 9, 2008 1:08 AM | Link to this
Wayne
I have to agree with you on that note. I made similar comments in my post earlier about attempting to obtain Peavy. I honestly believe it would positively impact what we are trying to do here. Now that it looks like Ludwick is going to Col, which means Johnson stays, I can see why Wren inquired on Olsen. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him attempt to pry Olsen and Willingham away from the Marlins. To be honest, I would’ve loved for SD to have been more interested in Johnson
By nolie
November 9, 2008 1:10 AM | Link to this
I think the big loss was AndrusN Nine
if he stays healthy, the biggest loss might be Feliz. I’m not sure how well Andrus will hit, though I haven’t seen him enough to say that I definitely think he won’t. We’ll see.
By Wayne
November 9, 2008 1:21 AM | Link to this
kirk
Wayne, the Braves could sign any FA they wanted to sign. They just don’t want to go in that direction.
I think if that were the truth, we wouldn’t be talking about Peavy. I think we would just sign Lowe for 18 Mil per year and Dempster for 14 Mil per year.
The fallacy in your argument is that the player has to actually want to come to Atlanta.
Concerning Ohman: or is it because they are constitutionally opposed to investing that much in him. He was our JC Romero. The Phillies paid their guy, will the Braves pay theirs?
I think they have a fundamental opposition to paying that sort of money for a middle reliever. To be honest, when they didn’t sign Mahay a year ago, we were all wringing our hands, saying why don’t you spend the $$ to keep him. Then along comes Ohman. Who’s to say that Ohman will be able to repeat his 2008 record. His past record would not support that ascertion.
Dude was good for 5 months, but he is certainly not irreplaceable. If he is smart, he will see that he has a good thing in Atlanta, and negotiate with the Braves.
On the other hand, if he wants to maximize his earning potential, this is the time to give it a try. Look at guys like Farnsworth and others who have signed big contracts as middle relievers, and now their teams are trying to figure out how to get out from under some of those contracts.
If I had to guess, I would say he will get a better offer elsewhere. Jeff Ridgway might be that guy for 2009??
By N Nine
November 9, 2008 1:23 AM | Link to this
Wayne
Wren wouldn’t ever touch his pride and joy (jurrjens)
That trade was quick and effective.
Hardy deal would have to wait on what happens the next two weeks.
Braves have to see what they lost in the potential Peavy deal and Brew Crew have to see if they sign CC an Sheets.
Reports say they both are getting offers from their 08 team.
Hard to tell what names at this time…
Kirknga
Ya gotta love Yunel’s unique fire he has inside.
I love how he lets it all out. If he needs to take a gamble and advance he will try,
By kirknga
November 9, 2008 1:29 AM | Link to this
I think to this point, the biggest loss from the Tex trade will be Escobar.
If we still had all those guys in our system, I think it possible that we would have enough to get this Peavy deal done without giving up Escobar.
Otherwise, where were those guys going to play?
By Wayne
November 9, 2008 1:31 AM | Link to this
Nolie I agree with you on Ohman. That was kirknga who was inquiring about Ohman.
kirk I would love to have Hardy, but I don’t think we will be able to pull that one off.
I think if Escobar goes, we will possibly all be surprised at who we pick up to replace him.
I would love to see us pick up a guy like Ryan Spilborghs of the Rockies. Right hander, who hits lefties well. Good splits away from Coors, and can play all 3 outfield positions, although he is probably better suited for the corners. Has some power, but is not a real masher.
Could he be had for Prado and maybe a minor league relief pitcher? They need help in the infield.
By Wayne
November 9, 2008 1:41 AM | Link to this
kirk Can’t go back and relive the past. Tex happened, and is gone. We took a chance, that at the time looked like it could work. Who’d of thought that Renteria would have went down at the time, and we wouldn’t have made the playoffs.
Hindsight is definitely 20/20.
Earlier I said I hated to see our guys go in the Tex trade. It wasn’t that I didn’t want Tex, I definitely DID want us to get him. I hate to see our youngsters go, no matter what.
I am an unabashed “prospect hugger”. I understand we develop players for our team, and to be able to fill other needs, but it still hurts to see them go.
By kirknga
November 9, 2008 1:58 AM | Link to this
Wayne, sorry but the only fallacy is believing that the Braves pursuit of Peavy means they can’t sigh FA’s. No logic there.
The Braves have a publicly stated pool of $40-45 million to spend this offseason. They could pay Sabathia his $25 million, but they do not wish to do so.They could sign, Lowe, Sheets. They very well still could sign someone. In fact, they are going to have to if they are not going to trade Hanson, Heyward, etc..
And let’s not forget Liberty Media said that they really didn’t give the Braves a budget.
For these reasons I say the Braves could sign whoever they wish, but have so far got gone in that direction.
By kirknga
November 9, 2008 2:09 AM | Link to this
I’ve never lamented the Tex trade and never will. I thought the move made sense given the context of the season and the prospects who were traded.
It’s great to be a prospect hugger and all, many here have such an orientation. What gets me though is how quickly the prospects are thrown under the bus once they reach the majors and don’t immediately achieve the same level of success as they did in the minors.
At some point Lillibrige, B Jones, Boyer, Acosta, Morton, Jo Jo were all highly praised and valued. But now the novelty has worn away and they don’t receive the same affinity as the once did.
I see potentially the same fate for Hanson, only this time Escobar will not be around because we traded away the known for the potential.
By N Nine
November 9, 2008 2:09 AM | Link to this
Kriknga
so far not gone in the direction because FA period hasn’t even started. That opens up THU at 11pm. Then we can throw money and outbid the Yankees. I’m loving it
By ccrider
November 9, 2008 2:14 AM | Link to this
Wayne and kirknga: I wouldn’t do too much hand wringing about the propspects in the Tex trade until I see them have a real impact. Harrison and Salty are the only ones that have reach the majors and neither player has impressed. Salty can’t win the catchers job and Harrison is about the same as JoJo is for us. Elvis and Feliz might make an impact, but the verdict is still out. Elvis has little power, but does have speed. Feilz throws hard but his other pitches are said to lag behind. Time will tell!
By N Nine
November 9, 2008 2:23 AM | Link to this
How about another Raul in the OF?
Raul Ibanez 23HR 110RBI .293avg
His HR went down from 33 in 07
Seattle Sucked and his numbers are respectable…286 batter..
Any takers? Wren?
By kirknga
November 9, 2008 2:24 AM | Link to this
ccrider, I think the Tex trade was proper. There are some who insist on saying that what we gave up essential prospects. I disagree. Even Salty develops, he wasn’t going to displace McCann. Elvis wasn’t goig to overtake Escobar or Lillibridge, and the pitching prospects did not have spots on the staff.
So time will tell, you’re correct. But it doesn’t matter because there was nowhere for them to play in Atlanta.
By Wayne
November 9, 2008 2:36 AM | Link to this
kirk I never said I thought that if the Braves got Peavy, that they wouldn’t go the free agent route also.
I suspect that they are OK with the FA route, though it has not been their primary means of acquiring players. I believe that they think that you overpay when you do so. (probably true)
When you think of it, wouldn’t you rather get a Cy Young caliber pitcher (really, there might be only two of those available in Peavy and CC) for 1/2 the price? I would. I know the argument that we wouldn’t have to give up our players if we signed CC. But it would give you more cash to take care of other needs if you saved some on your ace.
BUT, and it is a huge but, what are our chances of getting CC? He is either going to go to the highest bidder, or to his old team, or to a team that he dreams of pitching with (Giants?). Even if we were willing to bid up against the Yankees, Mets and others, I still don’t see us having much chance of signing him.
So, in light of that assumption, why not go for the other choice, which is Peavy. Get him for 3-4 players, one being HUGE, and for 1/2 the cash.
Now, we use the rest of the cash to try to fill the other spots. If we run into the same roadblocks that are there with Sabathia, then we go the trade route again.
The biggest problem with free agency is it is such a crap shoot to try to get the ideal player. Lots of competition. In going the trade route, you control your destiny a bit more. I also believe that you might get a player who is a tad less greedy than some of those out there on the FA market. If that guess is true, then you have a better chance of retaining that player.
The McCann/Francoeur situation comes to mind. Frenchy wanted more money, and will probably play it out to get the max contract he can get in a few years. Whereas, McCann on the other hand, probably left money on the table for security. I love it when we have players who are more concerned with staying with their team (Smoltz, Chipper, McCann) than those who are in it for the cash (Glavine, Maddux, Frenchy). We have people like Scott Boras to thank for some of that. I know it’s a business, but isn’t it comforting when your favorite players want to stay on your team?
Having said that, I still see the Braves going after a FA pitcher if they sign Peavy. Probably will hope that having Peavy will increase the likelihood that one of those pitchers will want to come over to ATL.
As for the money to spend, let’s not kid ourselves. While the Braves have money to spend, when have you ever known them to spend it unwisely? To overpay? I really can’t think of a good example of that.
Just because we have XXX amount of dollars to spend, doesn’t mean we will spend exactly XXX dollars. I would never expect that from the Braves. It also doesn’t mean that they won’t spend XXX plus another 5 million either. So long as it is a good investment of their $$$.
As for Sabathia, I don’t think the dollars scare the Braves as much as the 6-7 year contract length.
Lastly, I think if the Braves have a shot at say, Lowe for 18 million for 3 years, and then realize that they could also pick up “Mr Left Fielder Power Hitter” (you fill in the name and contract terms) AND get somebody like Rafael Furcal for 10 million for 3 years, I don’t think they would say, “Hey, we can’t do this because we don’t have the budget.”
More likely they would pass on somebody like Furcal because the risk/reward was too risky for the dollars and term being proposed.
Hope my thoughts and comments are clear.
So, I don’t think they are passing on Sabathia because they don’t wish to go the FA route as much as I think it is because they don’t think it will work for them. Peavy has a higher chance of coming to the Braves, so that is the direction they have committed to.
If the Cubbies end up getting Peavy, so be it. We punt and go for the next best pitcher we can get. Is that Lowe, or Cain, or Harang, or Maholm? Time will tell.
Sorry this was so darned long. Some will think my buddy WW stole my screen name and is posting for me!!!
:-)
Good night my friend. I will check for your comments on the morrow!
By Wayne
November 9, 2008 2:41 AM | Link to this
Time to go to bed, as I see the idiots are out!
:-)
(Andrew and Buster, you two are ugly, and your mamma dresses you funny!)
By Nocturnal Owl (N Nine)
November 9, 2008 2:41 AM | Link to this
Andrew
Not sure if DOB is here to defend himself with your non sense.
Andrew just curious, were you in that hotel at the GM meetings? I’m sure if you listen to many agents/GM/Players/Scouts/Writers, you can get a good gut feeling of whats happening around you. Not an insider? why don’t you read that email he received from Peavy’s agent. A Peavy type trade doesn’t just happen over night. This could become a 7 man trade easily.
BTW, N Nine has left the park…….
By kirknga
November 9, 2008 3:14 AM | Link to this
Wayne
I don’t disagree with much of what you said. I do believe that an organization should be able to sign FA’s. Yes it can be a crapshoot as you’ve pointed out, but hey part of the GM’s job is to correctly decide which FA to sign and which to stay away from.
I see no virtue in staying away from big ticket FA’s because there is talent to be had and shutting yourself off from an occasional high dollar FA means that you will place an extra burden on your farm system.
The Peavy trade is a good example because not only are you sending good minor league talent, but also some good and very good major league talent you signed and developed.It’s a receipt for draining your system at some point.
The Braves need to be adept at making trades. They need to be able to develop through their system. And yes, they need to be able to identify and sign FA’s. Good organizations are able to stock their rosters in any way necessary.
I have a feeling this offseason we’ll see the Braves aggressive in the market, maybe the mid-high market, but not the high end.
By cooper
November 9, 2008 3:21 AM | Link to this
Not a teen learn some manners. 40s here and the question was legitimate. They did it with Salty and Salty cannot hit like Flowers.
Oh and feel free to buzz off.
By Justin
November 9, 2008 3:39 AM | Link to this
If the Braves get Peavy with the aforementioned propects, it’d be a steal. He’s definitely worth more, considering his Cy Young/way under market value contract.
By nolie
November 9, 2008 3:50 AM | Link to this
They did it with Salty and Salty cannot hit like Flowers.Cooper
Actually Coop, they brought Salty up from AA, not low A ball. There really is a huge difference.And some of Jared’s minor league numbers were very similar to Flowers, with Tyler having hit a few more homers although at a lower level. I do like Flowers so far and I would like to see they not trade him, but it would be a terrible waste to have him in the bigs this coming season. He needs another year or two at least.
By Del
November 9, 2008 7:00 AM | Link to this
Here’s what I see happening in the Peavy sweepstakes:
We include Esco in the trade pkg
We grab FA Furcal and sign him to a 4 tr contract.
In the spring 09 draft we use our #1 selection to get the best SS available and groom him to be ready to take
over in 4 years.
After 4 yrs Furcal can be our utility infield man.
By richbrave
November 9, 2008 8:29 AM | Link to this
SD:
GOOD.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 9, 2008 8:52 AM | Link to this
Shoot, I didn’t realize Hanson was so big…6’6…wow
By Michael
November 9, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this
The Braves must find proven, starting pitching if they want to be successful in 2009. Smoltz is a warrior, but his days are likely over - same for Glavine. Spend Glavine’s & Hampton’s money and buy two proven winners, Peavy being one of them. Escobar is a talent, but can be replaced. Bring Furcal home, who is a true lead-off hitter. Cannon for an arm, switch hitter who bats for average, and always a threat to steal a base. Find a 2nd baseman, and move Kelly back to the OF. His defense killed the Braves in ciritical situations last year. Lastly, get Chipper some help. He cannot carry the offensive load by himself. The Braves supposedly have money to spend - lets see them do it.
By Lew
November 9, 2008 9:34 AM | Link to this
No Furcal.
What is this fascination with former Braves’ players who USED TO BE good? What part of missing 150 games the past two years with chronic back problems is not understood? What part of his horrendous Playoff defensive play is not understood? What part of he’s been going down hill since 06 is not understood? What part of he’s looking for a four year deal is not understood?
Come up with another option if Yunel is traded. Furcal is a mere shadow of what y’all remember.
By Braveheart
November 9, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this
So many seem so certain that Escobar has to be included. Why? What is the next highest offer out there? I haven’t heard much of anything. Why then are you asking the Braves to double the next highest bid? You don’t need to overbid. You just need to outbid. You might not even need to do that. I wouldn’t offer anything more than the Cubs offer. I would then just let Jake make up his mind about which team he wants to be on.
She might be a $25 an hour lady of the night being offered by her madame for $16 an hour but if the man next to you is only offering her $8, why are you the fool offering her the full $16? What you bid for her on a particular night shouldn’t be based on your own desperation. Rather, it should be based on what the next man is bidding. ‘Cause though she normally may be worth far more, that’s all she was worth that night.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 9, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this
Furcal’s injuries scare me, but not necessarily his ability…shoot, as you mentioned, he missed 150 games…may be a little rusty. He was off to one of his best offensive starts before getting injured. But, as you say, back injuries are nothing to mess around with. But, like you said, with his injury history, desired length of contract, and the amount he will command; the Braves will be better off finding another solution. I think they will look for a defensive SS (not saying they will find one better than Escobar)…Orlando Cabrera perhaps? Or will he make more than the Braves are willing to pay?
I truly wonder if the Braves would really not trade both Kelly and Yunel in the same off-season if they can get a legit, proven veteran to replace Yunel…if he gets traded. Losing Kelly’s bat may hurt…if he continues to progress. His fielding leaves much to be desired (not awful, but certainly isn’t going to compete for a GG anytime soon). So, if pitching and defense wins championships…get a guy like Cabrera who has won 2 GG (including 2007), ensure you have an a good defender at 2nd, ramp on the pitching, and go for it!
By Salty
November 9, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this
Hey, Lew! Is it legal to use ‘Y’all’ in Vermont!?! That’s ‘eh’ country, isn’t it! LOL!
By Salty
November 9, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this
Braveheart Nice analogy! Most people fail to realize that buyers set the market, not sellers, regardless if it looks a ‘sale’! And $16 vs. $25 looks like a bargain!
By Salty Dawg
November 9, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this
She might be a $25 an hour lady of the night being offered by her madame for $16 an hour but if the man next to you is only offering her $8, why are you the fool offering her the full $16? What you bid for her on a particular night shouldn’t be based on your own desperation. Rather, it should be based on what the next man is bidding. ‘Cause though she normally may be worth far more, that’s all she was worth that night.
LOL, a man that has truly mastered the art of prostitute economics. That is the funniest thing I’ve read on this blog in a while. Thank you.
By Braveheart
November 9, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this
Escobar is a talent, but can be replaced.
At what cost? Millions that will get in the way of filling the gaping holes we already had as we entered the offseason? Or prospects going to another team that you weren’t willing to include in this San Diego trade? Either way, it’s costly. And if it’s not costly? Nothing good ever comes free.
By Lew
November 9, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this
Jason-The thing about Furcal’s injury that really bothers me is that it’s a back injury. Back injuries tend to be chronic-look at Mark Kotsay-how much time did he miss over three or so seasons? If Fookie had injured his knee and had it surgically repaired, I wouldn’t be so concerned.
Couple this with the fact that his agent came out this week asking for a four year contract and I am just unwilling to take the chance he can make it that long without missing significant time. We just really do NOT need to have more chronically hurt players on this team. Look where that’s gotten us is recent years.
Salty-Thirty of forty feet of snow can’t take the Southern out of a Southern Boy. However, the lack of good BBQ is killing me. At least I can still get grits. After almost eight years, they still ask me where I’m from. I still have that drawl. All those years in Macon, I guess.
By Efrim
November 9, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this
Millions that will get in the way of filling the gaping holes we already had as we entered the offseason?
Or trading prospects for a shortstop. We have great depth in our farm system now, but we won’t if we don’t take some risks in free agency.
By Lew
November 9, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this
Jason-Furcal is coming off of a contract that netted him $13 mil a year. He is looking for a four year deal. Do you seriously think he will ask for less than $10 mil per year? If such is the case, that’s about what Orlando Hudson will ask for. Who would you ‘druther have for that money?
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 9, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this
Lew, complete agree about the injury and length of contract concerns. Cabrera will probably demand a pretty good contract himself…
By McCann
November 9, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this
Escobar is a great talent but can be replaced there arent many jake peavys out there guys and when we get him we are gonna put dempster/lowe with him and we are gonna have a good 1-2 punch at the top with a solid 3,4,5. Some protection for Chipper and we are in for a great season barring a rash of injuries like we had this year.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 9, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this
Lew, nope, and I hope I didn’t infer that I thought Furcal would take that kind of money. My point was I don’t think Furcal has all of the sudden lost his ability, that some of his poor defensive play in the postseason can be attributed to so much lost time, and that he was off to a great start offensively. I agree that we should not go after him, but not because of a lack of talent, but for the other reasons you pointed out.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 9, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
I also stick to my guns regarding the point that it is easier to have depth in the minor leagues at SS and OF than #1 type pitchers!!
By Roach
November 9, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this
I dont want cabrera….I would rather us a trade a mid level prospect or two for jj hardy.
By David O'Brien
November 9, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this
Do’t know who took a worse beating yesterday, Texas A&M, Vanderbilt or Roy Jones Jr. Wow, those were some ugly highlights from that Jones beating. Just saw them on ESPN. To think how far he’s slipped in recent years….
By Dadgum
November 9, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this
After reading many articles (MLB.com,Braves,SI) and listening to reports one thing is starting to ring pretty clear and that is Peavy is the one holding the deal up to this point.
The Braves have all but said goodbye to Escobar in the deal. He will be gone. It appears that Peavy will wait to see who the Braves target at SS. If the Braves want Peavy they will most likely have to sign Furcal at SS first or at least give Peavy every indication they will sign him shortly after he becomes a Brave. Renteria may also be attractive to Peavy but Renteria would most likely be a 1-year answer and then the Braves will be right back where they were this year in 2010.
It further appears likely that three teams could be in on this trade if Furcal is not signed. The bottom line is Peavy seems to be the one reluctant at this point and who can blame him. He has the no-trade in his pocket. The Braves better give him the assurance soon that they will be players in the free agent market. NObody wants to lose Escobar so his replacement better give Peavy that warm fuzzy feeling. Not sure Renteria is that kind of feeling.
Oh yeah, to me it is apparent that Kelly Johnson will most likely be gone as well. Not saying definite but I will eat some crow if he isn’t. Everyone knows my thinking on Prado and I view Wren’s stance about not trading the middle infield in the same year as childish but I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he is probably playing the riverboat gambler and not tipping his hand.
The Braves can’t really be serious about keeping KJ at 2nd though. Not much of that thinking makes any sense whatsoever. Obviously KJ is a nice guy and is well liked but that is just the company line. You keep an inferior 2nd baseman out there and keep a better one in Prado on the bench when you can trade KJ for Ludwick which gives you the big bat you want in LF and can then put Prado as full time at 2nd? Give me one good argument for keeping KJ at 2nd over Prado (no not HR’s unless you want me to counter with his 0-30 slump and poor plate coverage). Also let’s not forget that KJ is arb-eligible in 2010. Another reason Prado should be favored over KJ.
Along the same lines of thinking as above, a move to get Ludwick or similar for KJ will be viewed by Peavy as a move in the right direction to place a winning team on the field for’09. For sure Peavy is navigating this ship and if the braves want him in port they better give him their itinerary. Sooner rather than later. While we are young!!
Rock on…..as Peavy asks ” will that blonde still be just to the right behind the screen at The Ted. Great ballpark, that one ya’ll”
By Lew
November 9, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this
Roach-Just making a point about not wanting Furcal. Personally, I think spending that kind of money on a SS (Furcal OR Hudson) would prevent us from getting the outfield help we need and our LHRP-whether Ohman or someone else.
Jason-I’m thinking the lousy defense (face it the guy was never that great- he had range and arm but, a .966 career Fldg.% and his huge number of errors is hardly noteworthy) is a result of a bad back and being tentative because of the back.
By rfsbkr
November 9, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
Trade kotchman, kelly. and francouer
By Hanson
November 9, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
I wouldn’t be so hesitant to trade hanson personally…more can’t miss pitching prospects seem to flame out than succeed. Look at Hughes, bucholtz, or homer bailey. These guys were all supposed to be can’t miss, and except for brief flashes, all have struggled to stay in the majors. Hanson may be good someday, but peavy already is abou the best you could hope hanson ever is.
By TexasBrave
November 9, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this
Sending Escobar to the Padres will fill one void but will create another. Yes you can go out and get another shortstop but then you will have to trade away more prospects or dish out money reserved for our other needs LF and another pitcher.
If Peavy cannot be had by not including Escobar then we need to quickly start shopping elsewhere before other pieces we need go to other buyers.
The Padres are in a position to let starting pitchers come into their own much like the Braves were when Glavine and Smoltz were young. Why not offer the Padres several of our young pitchers that have pitched in the majors but are not polished enough yet. Pitchers like Jo-Jo, Morton, James (he might actually do well in that hitters park) and Lerew that need a little more seasoning but will most likely not get much time with the Braves next year if we are able to go out and get the pitching we want. You could even throw in Lillibridge or Infante or even one top minor league prospect like Gorky Hernandez.
I know that this is wishful thinking, but I don’t see the Padres getting any better offers. The bottom line is that the Braves don’t need to be creating a void to fill a void. Escobar should not be an option. If Towers doesn’t like the package minus Yunel take our business elsewhere and soon.
By chris
November 9, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this
Furcal…poor defensive play, or better yet lost ability? That is the same Raffy, in Dodger Blue, that was in our uniforms. He is going to launch some throws, always has….always will. The biggest fear I have in going after Furcal is he doesn’t really play the role of disrupter anymore. His preference is to hit double digit homers rather than get on base and cause havoc, like we need him to
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 9, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this
Wayne Lineup projections for 2009: C Brian McCann 1B Freddie Freeman…
Hey, McCann could bat leadoff! Remember, he had the best SB% on the team!
; )
I love it when we have players who are more concerned with staying with their team (Smoltz, Chipper, McCann)…
Me, too! I hope McCann will continue to follow suit and be a Brave 4 Life!!
By N8
November 9, 2008 11:05 AM | Link to this
So Peavy doesn’t want to come to the Braves because they might have to give up Yunel?
If this is true, it’s time to move on.
What ever happened to the guys that thought that THEY were the reason that a team could win? That thought THEY were the missing link in putting a team over the top?
Apparently, playing for Bobby Cox isn’t such a “prize” that most ML players are willing to jump at, huh?
Clearly, if Bobby was as good at getting the most out of people, like everybody says he is/was, guys like Peavy wouldn’t be concerned about WHO is playing SS next year for the Braves. He would have trust that Bobby would put a fully capable body out there.
Go ahead and use the (not yet guaranteed) fact that Bobby will step down after this year. If you’re using that excuse, then Peavy is overlooking the fact that JJJ will be in his 3rd year in 2010, Hanson more than likely will have some experience and Hudson will be back. Who wouldn’t want to be in THAT rotation?
Add to the fact that by worrying about Escobar not being here, he is not showing any trust in Wren to find a SS in between now and then.
Like I said. Time to move on. Trade for Ludwick, and sign some free agent pitchers (maybe trade for one), and let Peavy pitch for the Cubs next year.
Like they’re gonna win anything BIG anytime soon.
If Wren waits any longer for him to sh!t or get off the pot, we may miss out on other options. Time for Wren to call Peavy’s and Towers’ bluff, IMO.
By Lew
November 9, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this
Texas Brave-That’s one major point I’ve been trying to make, but everyone thinks I’ve lost all reason. Getting two top pitchers and a power hitting outfielder is a tough task for Frank Wren. Yes, I do feel he’s up to it. However, if you have to find those three and then replace KJ and Yunel (not to mention Kotchman and Francoeur like someone just suggested), it becomes an almost impossible job for anyone.
Hey-a healthy Jake Peavy with that contract could be a wondrous thing (then again, there could be drawbacks, too, however…). At what price does it become almost counterproductive? I don’t know. I’m an artist and even though I may know a ML GM, I ain’t one myself. However, the degree of difficulty with each successive need to fill goes up exponentially to my way of thinking.
By chris
November 9, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this
I see us getting Willingham because I honestly think Ludwick is going to Col for Holliday.
By Roach
November 9, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this
TexasBrave, We need peavy. There is only a few guys in MLB that are as good as peavy. This is a top of the line starter who is under contract for four years. This opportunity doesnt come around very often. I like escobar but come on this is JAKE PEAVY.
By Efrim
November 9, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this
Buster Olney chimed in on the situation in his blog this morning(of course I think he has already stated something similar to this):
Jake Peavy, the franchise’s best player, will be traded soon. There has been progress between the Padres and Braves in talks in recent days, with Gorkys Hernandez being added to shortstop Yunel Escobar within the proposed package of players that will likely be shipped from Atlanta to San Diego in the forthcoming days. The Padres will also continue to talk with the Cubs and Dodgers, but the expectation is that a deal is expected to go down before Thanksgiving.
By richbrave
November 9, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this
So DAVE do you eat burgers and fries at ANN’s.? Perusing the AJC web-news and caught the big five burger list.
Here in the far ‘burbs we have SATTERWHITE’s in ROCKVILLE just west of town on U.S. 250. They’ve eliminated the quarter pounder - that’s 72 ounces of home-grown and processed ANGUS beef and cut back to the 64-ounce leviathon. The 32-ounce stud is somewhat popular, but the 16 ounce seems the favorite. Smoking is allowed on one side of the restaurant. Give it a try if you’re in the area. Bikes and their riders seem to gravitate to the place at least the double handful of times I’ve eaten there. And that’s NOT dined.
By David O'Brien
November 9, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this
It appears that Peavy will wait to see who the Braves target at SS. If the Braves want Peavy they will most likely have to sign Furcal at SS first or at least give Peavy every indication they will sign him shortly after he becomes a Brave. Dadgum
Huh? What did you read or hear to give you that impression?
On another note, could Mark Teixeira possibly be in a better position as a free agent, with the Angels, Yankees and Red Sox all openly pining for him and Boras representing him?
And to think, some of us questioned his wisdom of turning down an eight-year, $144 offer from the Rangers before he was dealt to the Braves in July 2007.
That would’ve been worth $18 mill annual. I’m betting he gets at least $5 mill more per season when his new deal is signed with whichever free-spending team lands him. Yes, even in this rotten economy.
Then we’ll see if he might get to finally play in a World Series during the contract. Surely he will if he goes to the Red Sox.
By Efrim
November 9, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this
I think 8 years and 184 million is possible for Teixiera. Really think about that. 23 million a year until the guy is 37 years old. Whew. What an awful economy.
By semiballcoach
November 9, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this
i can’t wait until tex hits 190 for the first 2 months in boston
By Nocturnal Owl (N Nine)
November 9, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this
23 Million for TEX? He is secretly related to scott Boras.. What you didn’t hear that?
Oh great, when is this going to end? Another day of listening to Olney talk about the trade.
Come on Towers, You got the best offer
If we somehow score Peavy trade and steal Hardy away from the Brew Crew, that would be a nice start to the busy off-season.
I’m not sure where all this J.J talk started but If he is getting dangled we should sieze this opportunity.
By dgd
November 9, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this
Count me among those who does still lament the Tex trade (of course, I still lament the Orioles sending Steve Finley, Curt Schilling and Pete Harnish to the Astros for Glenn Davis—that OMG feeling in the gut at the time of the trade.) I have less trouble with the Tex part of the deal—which I think was Salty, Andrus and Harrison, w/Beau Jones thrown in because of worries about Harrison’s arm—than about the Mahay part, which I believe is what cost us Feliz. Could be wrong about that, but my impression is that Feliz wasn’t part of the deal until it was expanded to include a 2-month rental of Mahay……
By TexasBrave
November 9, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
Roach - No doubt Peavy would be a huge addition to our team. But I think what Peavy is saying is valid also. Why go to a team who could be in the same position as the team I just left.
Now do I think that the Brave will offense will be the same or worse than the Padres last year? NO But Escobar’s offense and defense and important part of our team. I don’t think we could find an adequate fill in for his loss. We might find someone who would be as good at one or the other but not both. Then again it is going to cost us more to go out and get that other player.
No doubt we need Peavy, I am just not sure we should give up Yunel and prospects just to get him when it is just going to cost us more for his replacement.
By Lew
November 9, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
Efrim-I’m more staggered by the fact that if Tex gets an 8 year deal, I’ll be 65 when it’s over.
By David O'Brien
November 9, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
On this day in history:
1983: Dale Murphy (.302, 36, 121) joins Ernie Banks, Joe Morgan and Mike Schmidt as one of the only players who have won the MVP award in consecutive seasons. The soft-spoken Braves outfielder receives 21 of the 24 votes cast by the writers.
By Salty
November 9, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this
those were some ugly highlights from that Jones beating. Just saw them on ESPN. To think how far he’s slipped in recent years….
Yup…only won undefeated champ all time…Father Time! Don’t see a challenger to dethrone him, either!
By gogobraves
November 9, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this
instead of spending 25m on peavy and a shortstop why dont they just stick with yunel and sign cc - might even be saving money going that route and your not getting rid of prospects .. just does not make sense to me.
By Bubdylan
November 9, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this
Lew, no worries. 65 is the new 62.
By Efrim
November 9, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this
dgd
Could be wrong about that, but my impression is that Feliz wasn’t part of the deal until it was expanded to include a 2-month rental of Mahay……
That is the first time I have heard of that.
By chris
November 9, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this
The Hardy availability came from during the season when plenty of media outlets(MLBTR, Foxsports) said the Brewers may have to trade Fielder and/or Hardy to accomodate rising salaries as well as potentially re-signing Sabathia & Sheets. Plus, they have a SS waiting in the wings, his last name is Escobar.
By Roach
November 9, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this
Texasbrave, You make a valid point. My feeling is we have to give a little to get a little. Our most glaring weakness is pitching we can fill that void with Peavy. Then we dont have an everyday SS but we infante/prado/lillibridge who can all play SS (now i know they are nowhere near the quality of Escobar but they could do the job). I just want peavy bc the effect who could have on this team as a frontline bulldog(Give me the ball we are gonna win today) a la CC on the way to the playoffs for the brewers.
By David O'Brien
November 9, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this
Richbrave, I had the “ghetto burger” (that’s what the joint’s famous for) and fries. Strong. Someone once weighed the whole mess and it came in at close to two pounds, at least according to something I read in a magazine review pasted on the wall there. I believe it, considering the way my gut felt when I left there after a late lunch. Didn’t eat again until breakfast the next day.
By Brandon
November 9, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this
Hopefully the Braves can get Peavy soon im ready for some transactions. If the Braves end up trading Escobar in the deal i would like to see Renteria come back and play ss and bat in the 2 hole with Chipper protecting him. What happened last time around OH YEA he and Chipper finished in the top 3 for the batting title. Go Braves lets strike gold with Peavy.
By David O'Brien
November 9, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this
Apparently, playing for Bobby Cox isn’t such a “prize” that most ML players are willing to jump at, huh?
Clearly, if Bobby was as good at getting the most out of people, like everybody says he is/was, guys like Peavy wouldn’t be concerned about WHO is playing SS next year for the Braves. He would have trust that Bobby would put a fully capable body out there.N8
Peavy’s under contract for four more years, five if option is exercised. So why would he make a decision to go somewhere based on a manager who could well be done after 2009?
By Efrim
November 9, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this
The Hardy availability came from during the season when plenty of media outlets(MLBTR, Foxsports) said the Brewers may have to trade Fielder and/or Hardy to accomodate rising salaries as well as potentially re-signing Sabathia & Sheets. Plus, they have a SS waiting in the wings, his last name is Escobar.
Expect the Brewers to ask for pitching in return. I don’t see a match, to be honest.
I think if the Braves deal Yunel for Peavy, it will be very difficult for them to acquire a quality replacement. I really don’t want Edgar Renteria playing SS for this team next year. His range, is, well, pretty awful at this point.
By Lew
November 9, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this
BubDylan-I’m trying to grow old gracefully, but I fear it’s an impossible job.
By David O'Brien
November 9, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this
Here’s your BBWAA awards schedule:
Monday, AL and NL rookies of the year.
Tuesday, NL Cy Young
Wednesday, AL and NL managers of year
Thursday, AL Cy Young
Nov. 17, NL MVP
Nov. 18, AL MVP
By Nocturnal Owl (N Nine)
November 9, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this
Efrim
Brew Crew are offering huge contracts to Sheets and CC.
Their needs could change depending on the outcome.
I’m sure we can find a younger pitcher if they need. How about Morton and a prospect/or2. He shouldn’t be impossible to acquire, IMO.
By Roach
November 9, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this
DOB whats your predictions for those awards
By Nocturnal Owl (N Nine)
November 9, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this
Same B-day as Moyer? I’m guessing he’s older. The guy might pull a Julio Franco. Somehow the champion’s most consistent starter this past year.
So for those Glavine and Smoltz doubters, watch Mr. Moyer pitch.
By TexasBrave
November 9, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this
Roach point conceded, just hate giving up Escobar plus too many good prospects. In my opinion we should not give up more than Escobar and a major league pitching prospect not named Hanson. Perhaps one minor league player but no more. Escobar may not be in the same value as Peavy, but it should not take any more than him and two others to get him. I don’t care how great Peavy is we should not break the bank for one guy.
By David O'Brien
November 9, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this
Efrim, I was talking to a couple of Detroit writers this week who said that same thing, that Edgar really looked old this season, range and speed diminished. Of course, they said the same thing in Boston when he made 30 errors in 2006, before his 2007 resurgence with the Bravos. So who knows? But he is getting up there in years, and it might be a bit much to expect him to rebound for the second time in three years.
That said, he’s a tremendous guy to have in the 2-hole if he’s got anything left. Just don’t know if Braves should or would gamble that he does.
And if were to switch positions, as some have suggested here, I don’t think it would be to 2B. He’d move over to 3B more easily, especially having played on that side his entire career.
By Efrim
November 9, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this
N Nine
I’m sure we can find a younger pitcher if they need. How about Morton and a prospect/or2. He shouldn’t be impossible to acquire, IMO.
They aren’t offering a huge contract to Sheets. Sabathia will turn their contract offer down at some point soon. They will need starting pitching, probably more established than Charlie Morton. Not impossible to acquire him, but again, I don’t see a reasonable match.
By Nocturnal Owl (N Nine)
November 9, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this
1. White Sox. They’d love to find a taker for Jermaine Dye, Paul Konerko or Jim Thome. Konerko and Thome have no-trade protection Ken Davidoff
To me, there is the OF answer
By chris
November 9, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this
I really don’t want Edgar Renteria playing SS for this team next year. His range, is, well, pretty awful at this point.
I agree his range and arm has diminished much. I don’t think it will be as hard to get a SS, though. I am not enamored with the FA crop of available SS’s. I would inquire on Hardy, though
By Efrim
November 9, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
DOB
Yea, I think it is asking a lot for him to rebound yet again. But to be honest, I’d rather have Edgar Renteria on a one year deal, than Orlando Cabrera on a long term deal. If that is actually what they are looking for. Cabrera posted a 285/334/371 line in a hitters park and I am pretty sure he has lost a step too. The SS options aren’t great, but I have confidence FW will find someone solid.
By David O'Brien
November 9, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this
By the way, forgot to mention last night that Marlins right-handed prospect Sean West is ridiculously tall. Listed at 6-8, and it’s legit. In fact, Mesa has two 6-8 pitchers on its roster, him and Tigers right-hander Jesse Estrada.
By Nocturnal Owl (N Nine)
November 9, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this
Renteria’s name will always be brought up due to his recent success in ATL. He has an awful range, very little Power, and on the decline. Yuck
The needle points to “NO”
Plus he is type “A” FA. Do you really want to give atwo supp picks for him?
There are many SS options, can we please stop talking about the guy.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 9, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this
Don’t wanna sound like And Idiot here, but what does “BBWAA” stand for?
Thursday’s also the day that announce—
Yeah, I told you guys that already.
By Nocturnal Owl (N Nine)
November 9, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this
Baseball Writers’ Association of America
That TD call was funny, too bad there wasn’t more
By N8
November 9, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this
DOB
I had another post in repsonse to your response that I think “disappeared” on me. So I’ll try it again. I’ll make this one shorter, in case the other one shows up too.
My comment about Peavy & Bobby was a bit sarcastic and not all that serious. I realize Bobby is probably gone after this year (though I’ll believe it when I see it - a playoff run might change his mind).
But if Jake was arrogant/confindent enough to think he can make a difference (something I think you should DEMAND from an ACE - especially one you give up Yunel Escobar for), then I don’t think he should be worrying about who is at SS.
If he (and other opposing players) have as much respect and desire to play for Bobby like you and others have stated over and over, then he would trust that Bobby (and Wren), would put a capable SS out there to catch the ball behind.
All of this is a bit silly anyhow, because I think that Peavy DOES respect Bobby, and DOES have the nutz to be a true Ace, I think that this alleged demand is just smoke being blown.
If it’s NOT, then I don’t want him. Period.
Besides, Yunel was not THAT good last year. Jake should watch the games. His defense was well above average (you know what I think of him with the leather), but his bat was inconsistent at best. Especially after Brayan Pena was let go. :-)
But, it is a little ironic that if Peavy DOES feel this way about Escobar, then doesn’t that make it a little more understandable why some Braves fans on the blog feel the same way…. that Jake Peavy on the team without Escobar, is maybe not as good as the team with Derek Lowe (or another of the 2nd teir pitchers) AND Escobar?
If Jake Peavy himself, is concerned (allegedly), then I think that should open a LOT of fans eyes, as to how many holes this team has, how far away they are, and surely should open Wren’s eyes about how important it is to NOT give the farm away for a one year run (while Bobby and Chipper are still here), as opposed to building for the long haul.
Sure, Peavy is under contract for 4 (maybe 5 years), but anybody remember Zane Smith NOT having any defense behind him?
Maybe, just maybe, Peavy is right.
I myself (with the 40 milliond to spend and more prospects to trade), trust Wren to put a good team together. But maybe Wren should listen to Peavy (or his agent) thinking outloud when it comes to Escobar.
PS: In case you were wondering…. The other post WAS longer than this one. LOL!
By Roach
November 9, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this
Baseball Writers Association of America
By Nocturnal Owl (N Nine)
November 9, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this
Hey McFann
Since your mann was born in Athens, Ga, anyway you might become a dawgg?
By sam
November 9, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this
Do you really think we can afford to bring back Furcal, bring in Peavy, get another decent starter, and a outfielder?
By FloridaBrave
November 9, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this
I don’t think Renteria’s finished, but I don’t think he’s coming back for two reasons. Firstly, the Braves don’t typically fill holes in free agency unless they absolutely have to. Secondly, with Atlanta focused on developing/improving their pitching staff, they need a better defensive player there than Renteria, especially considering we have a very mediocre fielding 2B.
I could see the Braves placing a call to the Angels as they have two shortstops capable of starting in the bigs- Maicer Izturis and Erick Aybar. Izturis was drawing comparisons to Orlando Cabrera- the guy he replaced in Anaheim- before he went down to season-ending thumb surgery and Aybar filled in admirably for him down the stretch. Both are young, cheap, slick-fielders with developing sticks.
Another guy who could be had is Ronny Cedeno of the Cubs. He was given the starting job in ‘06 but clearly wasn’t ready with the stick and struggled big time. For this reason, he doesn’t seem to be a favorite of Cubs fans but the Cubs were really pleased with his professionalism and development as a part time player last year. His glove has been major-league ready since he was 18 years old and his bat is just now starting to come around to the point he could hold down a starting job. The Cubs have DeRosa, Theriot, Fontenot, among others up the middle so he shouldn’t cost that much.
These guys aren’t Furcal, but these three guys could put up numbers similar to the Renterias, Lugos, Cabreras out there for much, much cheaper.
By LKS
November 9, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this
But, it is a little ironic that if Peavy DOES feel this way about Escobar, then doesn’t that make it a little more understandable why some Braves fans on the blog feel the same way…. that Jake Peavy on the team without Escobar, is maybe not as good as the team with Derek Lowe (or another of the 2nd teir pitchers) AND Escobar?
My thoughts EXACTLY!!!!
By BravesFanInRockies
November 9, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this
McFann,
Sorry about your Yellow Jackets yesterday. Well, not really. Butch Davis has turned around the Tar Heels at least a year sooner than I thought would happen. I was about to say it helps when you’re playing the weak side of the ACC schedule (no Wake, no FSU, no Clemson), but two of those three are down this year. Two losses by three point each. Not too shabby.
Another nice recruiting class or two and the Heels may be a legitimate solid national contender, not just one that benefits from being in a mediocre BCS conference.
By Roach
November 9, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this
FloridaBrave,
great point I agree with ya. We need to give kotchman a chance he will be able to produce after having an offseason with the club and going through spring training he wont hit a lot of homers but he will get on base a lot. Plus he is just as good as tex with the glove.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 9, 2008 1:09 PM |