AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2008 > November > 05 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USEating, observing, waiting for Peavy deal
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Dana Point, Calif. _ A few thoughts while contemplating how well-heeled and privileged anyone automatically looks while sitting at white-umbrella’d tables on the St. Regis dining veranda, out there on the immaculately manicured lawn behind this stately oceanfront resort, where I just saw major league-team officials dining (you dine there, you don’t simply eat) while I scarfed a $5 bag of potato chips and a $5 coffee from the absurdly overpriced coffee shop off the main lobby.
I know, you have no pity. After all, if you’re like me you’d rather have the Big Mama burrito I had for breakfast at the dive bar/restaurant at the Dania Beach Wharf, where fishing boats were pulling out of the harbor and a gorgeous SoCal waitress with no makeup and her hair pulled up in a rubber band kept my coffee cup full while I read the paper and ate (you eat there, you don’t dine).
Anyway, it’s a new day in America, but not much if anything has changed for baseball teams and top free agents, who are basically recession- and depression-proof, as we’re about to find out when Manny Ramirez and CC Sabathia land multi-year contracts worth more than $25 million annually, and Mark Teixeira gets something comparable or his agent (and Manny’s) isn’t Scott Boras.
But most of you probably want to know about the Braves and not about guys (Manny, CC, Tex) they aren’t going to sign, right?
OK, not much new to report on the Jake Peavy front. Waiting to talk to Frank Wren and hopefully Kevin Towers later today, but not expecting anything to have changed, to tell you the truth.
Despite what you might hear about they’re being seven teams — the Angels and Yankees along with the five previously named NL teams — that could be in the running, Towers has told a couple of people that it’s three teams in the Peavy race right now, and that he’s well into negotiations with two of them.
The Braves are one of those teams, and I think the Cubs are the other, though I’m not certain of that. Might also be the Dodgers, though I still find it hard to believe he’d trade Peavy to San Diego’s NL West rival just up the freeway.
The consensus among folks I talk to is that the Braves have been and still are the favorites to land the Alabama native and 2007 Cy Young Award winner, though it will likely cost them shortstop Yunel Escobar and a package of a few other prospects including at least two pitchers not named Tommy Hanson (Braves aren’t trading Hanson, period.)
While I’m thinking about it, let me reiterate a few things I’ve heard in the past couple days: 1. The Braves will NOT trade both Escobar and Kelly Johnson this offseason, though that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t trade one. 2. Braves might have gotten a casual inquiry or two about Jeff Francoeur, but they have not, repeat not, so far talked trade with any team about the right fielder. So don’t believe those rumors. Sure, that could change, but so far there’s been nothing doing on that front, and it sounds like Braves fully expect to have Francoeur in RF when the 2009 season begins. 3. The Braves met with Mike Hampton’s agent Tuesday, and both sides understand Hampton will see what else is out there but would like to come back to Atlanta if he doesn’t get as good or better offer from a team closer to his kids in Arizona. 4. There’s a couple other Japanese pitchers who are about to become free agents and might have interest from the Braves, but these are guys in their early 30s, who’ve gone through the eight years in the Japanese professional league to get their free agency (as opposed to Junichi Tazawa, 22, who the Braves just made a multi-year offer, a right-hander who’s going straight from Japan’s industrial league to America, which doesn’t sit well with Japanese pro-league folks, by the way). Oh, and 5. The new Q-Tip solo CD is supposed to be outstanding, as good as his best work back in the day with Tribe Called Quest.
OK, where were we?
Would a package of Escobar and, for instance, pitchers Kris Medlen and Charlie Morton, plus perhaps a lesser prospect, get the Peavy deal done? I’m going to go out on a limb and say probably so, because Escobar is regarded highly around baseball. More highly than some Braves fans might realize, folks who got a little turned off at times during his injury-plagued and occasionally temper-flaring season.
He’s got a cannon arm, great hands, a passion to play, and natural power that’s going to (probably) translate to 15-25 homers a season and a ton of doubles, in addition to a high average and OBP.
But there’s still that “probably” in there. It’s not a slam-dunk that Escobar is going to be an elite all-around shortstop you can build around. I’d bet that he will be, but it’s not guaranteed.
And even if he does become that, and one of the pitchers they trade becomes a solid major league starter, well, you know what? That’s a price you’re going to have to pay to get a 27-year-old ace in his prime, a Cy Young Award winner in 2007 who many believe to be one of the 10 best starters in baseball.
Only question about Peavy, and I mean the only question, is whether his elbow can hold up to that violent delivery for the rest of his contract. But hey, how many pitchers in baseball can you say aren’t at risk to have a season-ending injury and require surgery? Guys whose mechanics were described as flawless in the past, such as Mark Prior, have been constantly injured, while guys with unorthodox mechanics, such as Tim Lincecum, haven’t had any health woes.
John Smoltz has as pretty and consistent a delivery as anyone, and he’s had five arm surgeries.
Peavy’s had a couple of stints on the DL for elbow soreness, including one before the All-Star break last season. But he hasn’t had surgery and his MRI was reportedly clean (I know, I know, some of you are saying the MRI doesn’t show everything every time, but it does almost always show ligament tears that require Tommy John surgery; just ask Tim Hudson, who didn’t have any significant elbow pain when he went in for an MRI that showed not one, but two, ligament tears, necessitating the Tommy John surgery that’s likely to sideline him until at least late August and possibly the entire 2009 season).
We can assume the Braves would give him another MRI and examine it very closely, given the investment they’d be putting in him and the players they’d be giving up to get him.
Is he damaged? People, just look at how well Peavy pitched when he got back from the DL. If he was hurt, he’s a helluva pitcher when he’s hurt.
Denizens of Braves/MIB, here’s what it comes down to: Jake Peavy on a competitive team should be good for 15-20 wins, 200 innings and 200 strikeouts, on average, for the duration of his contract, whether that’s four years and $63 million of five years at $81 if the option is exercised.
And ask yourself this question: How many teams have won championships in recent years without a bonafide No. 1 starter, a guy you can turn to for Game 7 and say, “Here, now go hold the other team to one or no runs, dude.”
If Braves are serious about returning to the playoffs after a three-year absence, and doing some serious damage when they get to the playoffs, then they need a No. 1 starter. And unless they think they can pay the going rate for an A.J. Burnett (he’s injury prone and will probably get a four-year contract worth at least $68 million; who would you rather have?) or roll the dice on Ben Sheets (he’s so injury prone, he hadn’t won more than 12 games in a season before this one), or get into a bidding war for Derek Lowe, who’s getting up there in years and isn’t the No. 1 the way that Peavy is a No. 1 … well, you get my point.
Gotta do it, don’t you? Long as you don’t have to give up Hanson or Jason Heyward, or multiple prospects from the group that includes your Schafers and Gorkys Hernandezes and Freddie Freeemans, it other words as long as it’s not a system-purging deal, the Braves have to pull the trigger on Peavy if they’re not sure they can get another affordable, legit No. 1.
OK, let me know what you think about that, while I go roam the marble-floored hallways of this posh resort in my Chuck Taylors, looking for crumbs of news (or crumbs from the entrees they were dining on out on the veranda while ago).
GOIN’ OUT WEST by Tom Waits
Well I’m goin’ out west
Where the wind blows tall
‘Cause Tony Franciosa
Used to date my ma
They got some money out there
They’re giving it away
I’m gonna do what I want
Do what I want
And I’m gonna get paid
Little brown sausages
Lying in the sand
I ain’t no extra baby
I’m a leading man
Well my parole officer
WIll be proud of me
With my Olds 88
And the devil on a leash
My Olds 88
And the devil on a leash
Well I kno karate, Voodoo too
I’m gonna make myself available to you
I don’t need no make up
I got real scars
I got hair on my chest
I look good without a shirt
Well I don’t lose my composure
In a high speed chase
Well my friends think I’m ugly
I got a masculine face
I got some dragstrip courage
I can really drive a bed
I’m gonna change my name
To Hannibal or maybe
Just Rex
Change my name to Hannibal
Or maybe just Rex
I’m gonna drive all night
Take some speed
I’m gonna wait for the sun
To shine down on me
I cut a hole in my roof
In the shape of a heart
And I’m goin’ out west
Where they’ll appreciate me
Goin’ out west
Goin’ out west
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Comments
By Marty
November 5, 2008 6:22 PM | Link to this
I agree completely with your assessment, DOB, i.e., trading for Peavy even if it means trading Yunel. But what will we do about SS then?
By Taylor S
November 5, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this
DOB, what abut Brad Penny? Is he even on our radar ?
By Robert
November 5, 2008 6:25 PM | Link to this
I would love to sub Johnson instead of Escobar. DO you think we could get Peavy with Johnson as the center instead of Escobar
By Marty
November 5, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this
Wow, I was actually first? How bout that.
By David O'Brien
November 5, 2008 6:30 PM | Link to this
To clarify comment on last blog, that $4-5 mill is the signing-bonus amount I heard Tazawa would get.
Not sure of total amount of offer, but probably wouldn’t be too much higher than that. I think some of you guys are comparing him to Dice-K money-wise, when that’s apples and oranges, and not just because there is no posting fee for this kid.
Beyond that, it’s entirely different scenario in that Dice-K was a proven professional pitcher with a ton of experience in their major league over there. This is a kid who’s pitched at the equivelent of perhaps A-ball or borderline Double-A ball. Wren said more like college-level experience, but some Japanese folks here compared it to A-ball or Double-A.
Regardless, he’s a relatively unproven pitcher, not the nearly sure-thing major leaguer the Red Sox were getting when they won the bidding war for Dice-K. This guy doesn’t even have an agent, far as I know. Braves have been dealing with him directly, with his team manager advising him.
By woogidy
November 5, 2008 6:31 PM | Link to this
Can’t we just trade Bobby Cox and Scott Thorman for Peavy?
By David O'Brien
November 5, 2008 6:31 PM | Link to this
Taylor, it wasn’t until today that the Dodgers announced they were decling Penny’s option. Don’t know if Braves have met with his agent yet, but I think they probably have interest in him, though not as a No. 1. Health questions.
By Efrim
November 5, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this
Gotta do it. But….
You can’t pair Escobar with Schafer….
I don’t think you can do that.
Escobar and Morton, those two would probably have to be in the deal. Then, another pitcher from Rohrbough/Medlen/Marek/Locke. And then maybe Tyler Flowers.
But I don’t think you add Schafer in there. Not if you are dealing Escobar.
By David O'Brien
November 5, 2008 6:33 PM | Link to this
Hampton and Glavine both filed today. Entirely expected.
By Steve McQueen
November 5, 2008 6:35 PM | Link to this
DOB DOB When I was a little boy I wanted to grow up to be DOB DOB The coolest doggone motherscratcher at the AJC
How do I get your job?
Has your hearing recovered from Saturday?
By Ryan S
November 5, 2008 6:35 PM | Link to this
If Yunel does go in the Peavy deal, who do we look to play SS next season? Lillibridge, Prado(can he play there?) or Infante?
By Jamie in Richmond
November 5, 2008 6:36 PM | Link to this
David O’Brien
If the Braves were to trade Esco for Peavy and sign Taz to what I believe you suggested may be in excess of $6 mill annually, how much money do you speculate they’d have remaining to fill LF and shortstop needs?
Directly, I’m inquiring if Atl would have enough dunds remaining to make an attempt at bringing back Furcal. Or is that, financially, totally out of the realm of possibility?
Raul Ibanez as a target for LF…anything on that?
Thanks
By LKS
November 5, 2008 6:37 PM | Link to this
So…looks like Esco will be leaving us. I can’t help but think that is a Terrible move but whatever… Its their decision.
By tvsportscaster
November 5, 2008 6:37 PM | Link to this
I agree with your assessment DOB, that that package would get the deal done. My only question is if Khalil Greene is not coming back in the deal, what plan do the Braves have for shortstop, surely Lillibridge is not an everyday option. Any thoughts?
By Don!
November 5, 2008 6:40 PM | Link to this
Trade Yunel, re-sign Edgar? I’d be okay with that for 2009, but what do we have in the farm system for middle infielders for 2010 and beyond?
From what I understand, the Braves’ farm system has a few corner infielders with outstanding credentials, and a good pool of outfielders and starting pitchers waiting for the cream (excluding Hansen, who is a projected ace …) to rise to the top.
I’d actually feel good about this deal for 2009 and beyond if I felt comfortable about our SS down the road. One of the biggest reasons San Diego would make this deal is that SS is one of the hardest positions to project (and fill) from the minor leagues. That’s my opinion, anyway.
Later,
Don!
By Salty Dawg
November 5, 2008 6:41 PM | Link to this
I agree with you DOB in regards to the likelihood of Escobar becoming an elite SS. Nothing is guaranteed, but the kid is still young and shows real talent. I sure would hate to see him go, but if it must be then pull the trigger. Who, then, would be the heir apparent at short? Someone from withing the organization or does that add a new item to Wren’s shopping list? I am sure that is considered well in advance of any decision, but very curious what Wren is planning should he have to fork over Esco.
By jmart1951
November 5, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this
I for one believe that Escobar is a very special player and if I have to give him up it would then mean that the remainder of the trade package is of lesser players, maybe Gorky, Marek, Reyes, Jones types. Not Schaefer, Hansen, Heyward, Medlin, Freeman, Flowers, Morton.
By Salty Dawg
November 5, 2008 6:45 PM | Link to this
Jamie in Richmond-
Not to answer for DOB, but I don’t believe that $6 mil counts toward the payroll. Also, very, very, very little chance that the Braves would acquire Furcal. From everything I’ve read the Dodgers want him back and he wants to be there. Not to mention, he will likely get some hefty offers on the FA market. It would defeat the purpose of trading Esco for Peavy rather than spending big $ on a FA pitcher.
By Lew
November 5, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this
Anders-Dude, to answer your question from the last blog-HAD the Red Sox decided they really wanted Johan (and keep in mind they were what? A game away from the World Series without him?), they could have had him. The Twins’ GM kept trying to play the Sox and Yankees off of each other, pushed it to the point where both told him to get lost and ended up accepting a much inferior package from the Mets.
Now did the Mets get a deal? Absolutely. Did they need to acquire Johan? Again, absolutely. Did he perform as expected? Absolutely, yet a again. Did the deal come about because of some supposed master strategy put in place by Omar Minaya? No way. It fell into his lap because the Twins GM was greedy and misjudged the point where the other suitors withdrew their offers and walked away.
By Salty Dawg
November 5, 2008 6:49 PM | Link to this
By Robert I would love to sub Johnson instead of Escobar. DO you think we could get Peavy with Johnson as the center instead of Escobar
From your lips to Frank Wren’s ears. I too would much rather see KJ on the left coast in lieu of Escobar. I just don’t think he is as highly regarded at his position as Escobar. But oh if it were to happen, I might just do a happy dance.
By dodgerblue
November 5, 2008 6:49 PM | Link to this
You guys should just forget about Peavy. He’s going to be a Dodger. I heard his agent state TODAY that he prefers the West Coast and PREFERS to play with the Dodgers. He wants to play for a contending team. We all know that aint the Braves.
Dave O’Brien, you are really going to look ridiculous with all your posts about Peavy, and it’s just a matter of time until the Braves get him, and how all it will cost is Escobar, when Towers actually trades him to the Dodgers. Say what you will about the Padres not wanting to trade within the division, but Towers is talking to us for a reason, and we have FAR better prospects than do the Braves. Yes sir, he’ll look mighty good in Dodger Blue.
By Steve from OH
November 5, 2008 6:50 PM | Link to this
Don, we’ve got Brandon Hicks (who I’m not at all sold on yet) in high-A/AA right now. Good glove guy, projects for good power, but the OBP is a bit low (.335 at high-A). His SLG keeps his OPS in the 800’s, though. He’s got good potential, but he’s not there yet.
If only Elvis was still in the building…
By used cars
November 5, 2008 6:51 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the info Dave. Hope your not slaving too hard out there. Any sense on whether the Padres want to get this thing done quickly so they can move on to other things. Any other info floating on Ordonez, Ludwick or Ibanez? Do you think Kelly, Medlen and Marek and maybe a Cody Johnson could get Peavy. If so, maybe we would have the ammo to get Ordonez. I would really like a cleanup hitter like we had in Mcgriff to anchor the lineup. It would just make everyone around him better. And I’m with you, I think Escobar needs to be untouchable. we need a little more fire like him around.
By David O'Brien
November 5, 2008 6:51 PM | Link to this
Jamie, the signing-bonus money for Tazawa is from a different pile of cash than the major league payroll.
By Steve from OH
November 5, 2008 6:53 PM | Link to this
DOB, do you have any idea what the organization’s opinion is on Hicks? Esoteric question, I know. Sorry.
By Moby Grape
November 5, 2008 6:53 PM | Link to this
Can’t we just trade Bobby Cox and Scott Thorman for Peavy?Woogidy
how about if we just keep Bobby and trade you instead. That way they would reap the benefit of all your baseball expertise instead of Bobby’s
By Original Jon
November 5, 2008 6:53 PM | Link to this
DOB Not sure if you have been asked this yet or not, and if you have, I apologize for not seeing it, but, Junichi Tazawa would not be the 2nd pitcher the Braves are going after would he? A rotation of Peavy, Jurrjens, and whoever else would not be that great.
Are there plans to get another starter other than Tazawa?? if they get him at all?
By mitchie-san
November 5, 2008 6:54 PM | Link to this
I’m rarely near the top….wow.
By BravesFanChris24
November 5, 2008 6:56 PM | Link to this
I doubt Dodgers will give up THAT much that Towers would demand from them for Peavy. I wouldn’t question that maybe Dodgers are inquiring, but I don’t see Peavy as a Dodger for THAT type of ransom that Towers would want from a division rival.
By Lew
November 5, 2008 6:56 PM | Link to this
Jamie-There was a report today the Furcal is looking for a four year deal. Considering the back problems which put him out for most of the season in 08 and seeing how bad his defense was in the playoffs, I don’t think the Braves would sign him to that type of deal. Especially at the amount he would be seeking. I wouldn’t blame them (or anyone else for that matter).
By David O'Brien
November 5, 2008 6:56 PM | Link to this
Robert, I asked about that and was told by someone close to the Padres that they regard Escobar on a higher level than KJ, and they also have a young 2B (Matt Antonelli) they probably aren’t ready to give up on just yet or relegate to utility status yet, though he stunk last year in Triple-A.
Of course, that could be a Padres official blowing smoke up his laptop, but that’s what he was told.
By Eddie
November 5, 2008 6:56 PM | Link to this
DOB, if the braves land peavy and the japanese guy..who do you think they would go after to fill the outfield spot..DUnn? also…great lyrics choice today….have you heard GOv’t Mule do a cover of the song..warren haynes is amazing on the guitar
By Lew
November 5, 2008 6:59 PM | Link to this
DodgerBlue-Honestly, I don’t care if we get Peavy or someone else, but Towers would have to be And Idiot to trade Peavy within his own division.
By David O'Brien
November 5, 2008 6:59 PM | Link to this
dodgerblue, why am I going to look silly? I didn’t say it was a done deal or that he’s definitely coming to the Braves. I said the consensus among people I talk to here is that the Braves are frontrunners, and that there are a lot of people who doubt Towers would actually trade him to the Dodgers. If he does, he does.
But glad you heard his agent say TODAY that he PREFERS the West Coast. Were you dining with the agent, by chance?
By Moby Grape
November 5, 2008 7:02 PM | Link to this
any DEXTER fans out there who think that this season is a bit of a letdown?
By Tomas
November 5, 2008 7:03 PM | Link to this
Why not trade BOTH Escobar, and KJ. I’d only trade KJ if we get Ryan Ludwick straight up, or someone in the level of Ludwick. And if Peavy requires Escobar, Morton, Medlen, and a low level prospect, i’d pull the trigger.
Prado can fill the 2B position very well. And I can live with Lillibridge in SS. I believe his defense can be very good, and that’s the most important cuality in a SS. It’s like a Walt Weiss, Ozzie Guillen, Rafael Belliard, etc. But in order for this to work, the other players in the team have to hit.
But I’d like to keep Escobar if possible, I prefer to trade Jordan Schaefer, Tyler Flowers, Kris Medlen, Charlie Morton, and two mid-level prospects or one for Peavy.
By mitchie-san
November 5, 2008 7:04 PM | Link to this
Peavy will be in Atlanta in a “4 for 2” kind of deal. It will cost us Yunel, two pitchers and some no-name player for Peavy and Greene. I bet that the two main hold ups are the Padres hearing all offers they can and which players the Braves want to give up other than Yunel. I am sure the Braves are low balling with some scrubs trying to get something done before they get to the bigger names they want to keep. It will take some time, but it will get done.
By j
November 5, 2008 7:06 PM | Link to this
Hello, Dave, I hope your ears have recovered from the Hold Steady/ Drive By Truckers show. I hope we do find a way to get Peavy without depleting our farm system. Schafer really might benefit from a fresh start given what happened last year. Combine him with Morton and Freeman and hopefully, Towers might be down. Would love to find a way to keep Escobar and Gorkys while still getting Peavy. Wouldn’t we all I know.
Also, have any other albums float your boat lately? I am in total agreement about Stay Positive being a great record. The new Mercury Rev is pretty good as well. Kinda iffy about Ryan Adams new one though. Cheers, J
By Bubdylan
November 5, 2008 7:08 PM | Link to this
Schafers and Gorkys Hernandezes and Freddie Freeemans - DOB
Man, that no-make-up waitress got you ALL messed up. :)
By stamper
November 5, 2008 7:09 PM | Link to this
dodgerblue, you’re so incredibly delusional it’s amusing. that… and you’re a tool. do us all a favor and kick yourself in the back of the head. thanx, champ.
By ncscoots
November 5, 2008 7:09 PM | Link to this
One of the biggest reasons San Diego would make this deal is that SS is one of the hardest positions to project (and fill) from the minor leagues
You must not have read the last blog, my friend, LOL. Some shining star of blog intelligence reminded us all that it would be easy to get a “capable SS” if Escobar is traded.
+20 SS grow on trees, I guess, and I’ve only been looking at the ground. Foolish me.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 5, 2008 7:09 PM | Link to this
dodgerblue,
Peavy may become a Dodger, but if he does, it’ll be because Coletti gave up players the caliber of Kershaw and Kemp and Hu … and you’ll still be stuck with Andruw and Pierre stinking up your roster!
The Padres will insist on more from the Dodgers if they’re trading Peavy within the division.
By Bubdylan
November 5, 2008 7:09 PM | Link to this
Oh, you had just pluralized their names. I’m retarded.
By Billy Walsh
November 5, 2008 7:18 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB, are cigars allowed on the veranda. If you havent already, try a Tatuaje (better than most cubans). Whats the time table on a Tazawa decision? Did Boston make an offer? Check out the great clash pics on rollingstone’s website (great pic of the band with De Niro) Apparently there is a new book on the only band that mattered.
By Serge
November 5, 2008 7:19 PM | Link to this
Matt Antonelli was one of the 100 top prospects in baseball at the end of the 07 season. Hes pretty good so its no suprise the Padres would want Escobar. They dont have a SS to replace Khalil Green (Who might be dealt to Baltimore)
By Erik
November 5, 2008 7:19 PM | Link to this
DOB I agree with your assessment and I hope we can get Peavy without giving up Schaffer and Flowers. Here would be my hopes for transactions this offseason. remember the braves have about 45$ Million to spend.
1)Braves Give up: Escobar, Morton, Medlen, Brandon Hicks(or another lesser position prospect) 1)Braves Get: Peavy
Net salary exchange: Braves take on about 10 Million(after deducting Escobar and Morton’s salary)
2) Braves Give up: KJ, Marek 2) Braves Get: Ludwick
Net Salary exchange: Braves save a couple million by avoiding arbitration for KJ
3) Sign Renteria to 2 yr 10-14$ Million contract.
Net Salary Impact: 5-7 Million a year
4)Sign Dempster to 4 year 50-60$ Million deal (Lowe, or Brunette) as plan B
Net Salary impact: 12.5-15$ Million a year)
Total Salary Increase: 27.5-32 Million This gives us room to sign Smoltz, Ohman, and a couple bench players
This would give us a lineup of 1.Anderson/Glanco CF (you know the story) 2. Renteria SS (you know the story with him in front of chipper) 3. Chipper 3B(same as every year) 4. Ludwick RF/LF(.299 with 38HR last yr) 5.Adam Dunn RF/LF(.380 OBP and 40HR the last 3 seasons) 6. McCann 7.Frenchy 8.Prado
Rotation 1)Peavy 2)JJ 3)Dempster 4)Campillo 5)Hampton/Smoltz/Rookie
This gives us a very young rotation with a very solid 1,2,3, and 4. With Hanson and Hudson probably coming into the equation at some point in the second half.
What do you think?
By Efrim
November 5, 2008 7:23 PM | Link to this
DOB
Robert, I asked about that and was told by someone close to the Padres that they regard Escobar on a higher level than KJ, and they also have a young 2B (Matt Antonelli) they probably aren’t ready to give up on just yet or relegate to utility status yet, though he stunk last year in Triple-A.
Of course, that could be a Padres official blowing smoke up his laptop, but that’s what he was told.
Yup, that sounds about right. I think that guy close to the situation is spot on. Padres don’t have any SS ready in the minors. Antonelli was high on their list. He has a bad year, and he may be moved to CF, but I think that they still view him as a regular second baseman.
My question is, did you get the sense that they may have to include Schafer along with Escobar to get a deal done? Not sure how in the world you’d know that….but I’m just askin.
By Original Jon
November 5, 2008 7:25 PM | Link to this
Erik, how in the world do you get Dunn in the lineup when he wasnt in your proposal and money spent? So if all that you say happens and we spend about 32 million of that 45 you say we have, you really think we could sign Dunn for 13 million a year?
By Duke
November 5, 2008 7:30 PM | Link to this
DOB, hope you will be able to catch Sons of Anarchy tonight. As usual it will be a delicious treat. Also my take on the whole Peavey saga is if the Padres want Yunel then give him to them. It doesnt matter how much we regard Yunel. We regard Peavey a lot more. I love the fact that Manny Ramirez is about to get 25 a year at the age of 36. I would think either this or the next season is gonna be his downward turn year. He played on a lot of emotion towards the end of last season. Oh and keep rocking the Chucks. Peace
By Erik
November 5, 2008 7:36 PM | Link to this
scratch Dunn at 5. That was my first draft in which we traded Frenchy and a package for Greinke in stead of signing Dempster. Under that scenario we would try to sign Dunn. Push McCan up a spot and slide Kotchman in at 6.
By Original Jon
November 5, 2008 7:49 PM | Link to this
Ok, makes a little more sense, but that still wont happen.
By Salty Dawg
November 5, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this
I know this is off topic, but any insight into the likelihood of an extension for Chipper before next season, or at all. Seems like he is due for a bump in pay even with the injuries given the fact that he restructured his salary a few years back and has basically carried the offense for the past two years. I guess there is no rush to get it done given that Chipper is likely to stay in Atlanta as long as they want him, but I’d hate to see him have another banner year and be p** about the Braves waiting ‘til the last minute.
By David O'Brien
November 5, 2008 7:59 PM | Link to this
Folks, regardless of what’s being written, Braves aren’t shopping Francoeur out here. Haven’t talked trade with a single club, from what I’m told by someone who knows. Not saying his name hasn’t come up in casual conversation, perhaps, between GMs or scouts or whatever. But no trade talks.
I really think he’s going to get a chance to prove himself, to start the season with the Braves in RF. Don’t see him getting dealt, not unless, of course, he struggles again in first half of season….
Colletti said Dodgers made offer for Manny today that would give him second-highest average annual salary in baseball history, which means somewhere around $25 mill per year. But he didn’t give any details other than that, which probably means it’s three or four years at $25 mill annually, which probably made Boras cringe and try to avoid laughing.
I’m sure one of the Dodgers writers will have the amount soon. I’ve got other stuff to write, but just wanted you all to know what Colletti just said to a scrum of us reporters….
Braves aren’t going to make a run at Penny, by the way. Too many question marks.
By N8
November 5, 2008 8:00 PM | Link to this
“I disagree. While Atlanta’s closer will give up his share of runs, I’m going to say that Wagner isn’t going to give up any runs — let alone baserunners — all year.”
Sure. I understand. An ERA of 0.00 ……. with ZERO saves, ZERO holds and ZERO wins. Fair enough I suppose. LOL!
nolie
“He’s had some good years but it took him longer to get there than the Braves would have put up with anyway….Wouldn’t mind having him back for a couple of years though….Neither of them rival the Butler trade”
Totally agree. I have zero problem if a Braves fan (along with Bobby and Wren) feel that adding Dye for a year or two would strenthen the club NOW. But to say we “missed out” on something by trading him is silly.
“Fielding Bible ranked Wright 6th in MLB and Chipper did not make the top 10. I’m not a big believer in fielding stats but I lean towards this org.”
Was that for 2007 or 2088? Just curious.
“Chipper has gotten better than he used to be, but he ain’t no gold glover and the odds are he will never come close to winning one because of his very poor rep from his first sojourn at third.”
There lies the problem with the GG award. It’s more about reputation, than actually looking at each individual season. Which is why Vinny Castilla didn’t win it (when Chipper moved to LF for him - Vinny was damn near flawless AND solid as hell that year), and the same reason Mr. Viagroid won it having DH’d most of the season he won it.
I’m not one to look at just errors. Because I’m of the belief that many guys make errors on plays that others might not get to. Say Furcal in his early years. Dude had a ton of range, but made the occasional wild throw on balls that other guys had ZERO shot of getting to.
I realize that Maddux is arguably one of the finest fielding pitchers in recent history (if not all of history). But are we really to believe (I didn’t watch much Maddux starts this year), that at age 65, he’s as good of a fielder as he was when he started his career? Add to that, that there isn’t another guy out there that does it a little better in today’s game?
Maybe. Maybe not. But like you said. His reputation doesn’t hurt, right?
As for Chipper. Maybe I’m the homer, but I don’t think anybody fields bunts and slow choppers with his bare-hand as good, much less better than him in all of baseball. Add to that, his arm is steady and accurate. His range to his left (cutting off balls in the hole before the SS has to make a backhanded play) is as good as anybody’s in the league.
I’m not neccesarily saying that Chipper should be the gimmie for the NL GG year after year, but Wright has hardly been clearly the best 3B (when you consider only fielding) the past two years. Not with 21 errors in 2007.
Just my opinion.
DOB
Agree with most of your reasoning regarding Peavy and trading for him for prospects, rather than spending money on free agents.
It really comes down to the money and what Wren and Bobby want. That being said (and it’s NOT my money), I’d almost lean towards keeping the guys in our system, making a move on a couple of the big guns out there (Lowe, Penny, Burnett) and KEEP the prospects.
Is there more risk in those guys? Possibly. Then again, Peavy’s arm could blow up at any point (as could JJJ’s or Hansons, or Smoltz’s…er…wait a minute, or Hudson’s…..er….sorry about that, or Gonzo’s).
Like I said, it really comes down to WHO they want.
While I believe that if totally healthy, there isn’t a better pitcher in baseball than Peavy. Some others that compare (Sabathia, Hamels, Webb, etc..), but that’s apples to apples, IMO.
No doubt that Peavy is “better” than Burnett, Penny and Lowe.
The question that is at hand, is if the Braves are a better team with JUST Peavy (and Greene or another player) at SS. Or are they better off with Burnett and Escobar on the 25 man roster at the same time. Not to mention the OTHER prospects waiting in the wings for mid-season help, roster depth or trades next off-season?
Only Wren knows how they really feel.
I’m happy either way, if it makes us a better team for the future. But since all we really “netted” out of the Tex trade was Kotchman (who might end up being better for us than ANY of the prospects we gave up for Tex), makes me a bit gun-shy to give up 4-5 players for Peavy and Greene.
That being said it IS completely different than the Tex deal, because Peavy is locked up long-term.
What the hell do I know? Go Braves. Get R Done Wren!
By ghbrave
November 5, 2008 8:01 PM | Link to this
DOB, While I agree Peavy is no doubt a quality #1 rotation guy, what do you make of his home/away career stats? He definitely has enjoyed the vast expanse called PETCO,huh? At home 2.77 ERA/.219 BAA/.613 OPS On the Road 3.80 ERA/.246 BAA/.737 OPS
By David O'Brien
November 5, 2008 8:01 PM | Link to this
Duke, I don’t think my hotel has FX. But if not, I’ll certainly watch it soon as I get home tomorrow night. Love that show. Outstanding.
By Jake
November 5, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this
If we do trade for Peavy I for one hope we can do it without getting rid of Esco. I know he has great upside and it sounds as if that is the infielder they have kind of set their sights on but I don’t think KJ is that far off especially at his position. I know Petco is a huge park but I can see KJ doing great there. I think his swing can find those gaps and he has plenty of power when he gets in to one to get it out. If i’m the Padres I don’t think I can go wrong either way with those two. They both have a lot of potential.
By Tom
November 5, 2008 8:08 PM | Link to this
DOB—Another big round of thanks for all the great work you’re doing. I don’t know of any other beat writer that’s giving out anywhere near as much info as you are, and your comments are all well-thought-out and reasonable (i.e., you don’t just seem to be posting every little bit of conversation you hear, and you’re generally good about indicating how reliable the source/info is).
A couple questions for you, though (thanks for answering my previous ones).
First, regarding a potential Peavy deal. You said at one point that any deal involving Escobar would bring Khalil Greene back the Braves’ way. You seem to still think Escobar could/will be involved, but I wonder if you are still hearing Greene’s name as much, given that it seems other teams are inquiring about the Padres’ shortstop. Is it still likely that Greene would come to Atlanta if Escobar went to SD? On a more speculative note….if Greene isn’t part of the deal, any insight on possible returns for either Edgar Renteria or Rafael Furcal?
Second, you say that Tazawa’s bonus comes from a “different pile of cash” (like the image there) than the major-league payroll. Any info on exactly WHICH pile of cash that is? I see the words “signing bonus,” and I instantly worry that Tazawa’s bonus might come out of our 2009 draft pool, which might be a bad idea given our seventh overall pick and the outrageous success of the ‘08 draft (where we signed all our picks 10th round or earlier). This might not something Frank Wren wants to reveal, but I was curious what info you had on that front.
Thanks again!
By David O'Brien
November 5, 2008 8:09 PM | Link to this
By the way, whether or not Escobar is traded, Khalil Greene isn’t going to be replacing him. Of that I can now say with a great deal of certainty. Braves just aren’t big on him.
By stynes
November 5, 2008 8:11 PM | Link to this
DOB - “Were you dining with the agent, by chance?”
You kill me, man. You’re like the nicest, most patient guy…. And then someone says or does something stupid to set you off and you just come back with this ire of fire. It really cracks me up.
By brian
November 5, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this
the only way I see Francoeur being dealt is if KC offers a good package with Teahan/Dejesus and a top young pitcher. Moore loves him and might overpay relatively for Francoeur. Otherwise the Braves have to gamble that Francoeur will bounce back at least somewhat this year
By Casey
November 5, 2008 8:16 PM | Link to this
Thank you for easing my mind. We do not need Jeff Spicoli playing SS for the Braves.
By Interested Observer
November 5, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this
I cannot endorse a Peavy for Escobar, etc. trade until I know who would replace Esco at SS. If we weaken SS too much, I’m not sure adding Peavy would benefit us as much as keeping Escobar and adding some of the other pitchers would. Since we have two outstanding CF prospects, I’d be more open to trading one of them instead of Escobar.
By David O'Brien
November 5, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this
Also, the Ryan Ludwick stuff is ongoing. Braves are talking to Cardinals about him, but I think it hinges on the Peavy thing because Braves aren’t going to trade Kelly Johnson if they trade Escobar to San Diego. There might also be some chance the Padres would consider taking KJ, but I’m not sure (I don’t know if they are). In that case, Braves wouldn’t trade Escobar to Cardinals, who’d sure love to have him.
By Joe M.
November 5, 2008 8:34 PM | Link to this
“I really think he’s going to get a chance to prove himself, to start the season with the Braves in RF. Don’t see him getting dealt, not unless, of course, he struggles again in first half of season….”
The Braves are still showing that extraordinary bias towards Francoeur. What incriminating photographs of some members of the Braves’ front office does he possess?
How much longer? How many chances? If it was anyone else on the team doing for three years what Francoeur has done for the past three full seasons (2006-2008), they’d likely non-tender them.
Why the extreme favoritism? I’m being dead-serious. Is it because the Braves think Francoeur boosts home game attendance? A good PR face for charity events and whatnot? The sponsorships? What?
By stynes
November 5, 2008 8:36 PM | Link to this
One other thing, DOB. I was in Hollywood a few weeks ago. Hollywood, FL not Hollywood, CA. Well, I was actually in Hollywood, CA too but I’m talking about Hollywood, FL. Anyway… I tried Le Tub. The cabbie had trouble finding it - had apparently never heard of it. The atmosphere was very cool. It was beautiful weather, early afternoon (2:30 or so?) on a Thursday. Few people there. The burgers were huge, I’ll give em that. Tasty but definitely overcooked for my order of medium. Not a whole lot of flavor - seasonings. Good overall experience, though. I’d go back. It was good but not great. Definitely not the best burger I’ve ever had but I’m glad I went and tried it. Keep the recommendations coming - especially the BBQ.
By Erik
November 5, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this
DOB
Without KJ is the Ludwick Deal dead or do we have any other valued pieces for the cards without dipping into our untouchables? If so what would that deal look like?
By Clay
November 5, 2008 8:46 PM | Link to this
DOB Let’s say St. Louis says ok on the KJ for Ludwick trade, do the Braves still wait to see about Peavy or do they go ahead and pull the trigger and try to work out another deal with SD or just look for a pitcher/pitchers via Free Agency?
By David O'Brien
November 5, 2008 8:51 PM | Link to this
Just found out that the Cardinals would take either Escobar or KJ in the deal for Ludwick. Don’t know if they’d have to include anything else.
That deal will be held up by the Peavy matter, probably, because Braves don’t want to trade both their middle infielders in the same offseason.
By used cars
November 5, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this
Do you really see Ludwick as a cleanup solution or another in the line of 5-6-7 type of hitters. Who would you prefer to see hitting behind Chipper, is McCann the long term answer there.
By Salty Dawg
November 5, 2008 9:10 PM | Link to this
I really don’t see any logic to trading Francoeur right now unless someone comes in with an over-the-top offer, relatively speaking. Jeff’s trade value is pretty much rock bottom right now, so you aren’t likely to get much in return. On the other hand, if this season was an anomaly, Francoeur could still turn out to be an above average to very good OF. I don’t think anyone would be terribly disappointed at this point if he can even get back to the numbers he put up in his sophomore season. It’s been well documented that Francoeur tried to “bulk up” last off season in an attempt to become a power hitter. That obviously was an abysmal failure. So if he learned his lesson, it isn’t outside the realm of possibility that he can turn things around. As DOB mentioned, if he hasn’t turned things around a couple months into next season it will be painfully obvious and the Braves will do what they must at that point. For now, I personally would like to see him get another shot with the Bravos.
By Jeff
November 5, 2008 9:11 PM | Link to this
As I said months ago, including Hanson or Esco in a trade for Peavy would be stupid. Thankfully Braves GM Wren has apparently shot down any chance of Hanson being moved since then, but the trade Esco stuff continues.
Personally, I’m hoping Braves GM Frank Wren is smart enough to see what the Braves have in Esco (and if he is, then Esco must be included among the “untouchables”).
That said, Brent Lillibridge isn’t even much of a back-up MLB shortstop, much less a viable replacement for Escobar. Escobar’s great defense will be missed if he’s traded.
PS: Esco battled injuries this past season a la McCann in 2007 (and like McCann in 2007 he still hit well for his position). If Esco can stay healthy this season, then he’ll likely hit over .300 again, and could hit closer to .330 or so. I also expect his HR numbers to continue to improve as well. Esco having a healthy season would certainly help matters, just as we saw with McCann.
By Salty Dawg
November 5, 2008 9:12 PM | Link to this
McCann would be a great guy to have in the 4 spot, if he were an every day player. As it stands, it just doesn’t make sense to have the catcher batting 4th because you still have to have someone that can pull the rope on his off days.
By T-Bone
November 5, 2008 9:13 PM | Link to this
DOB, would the Braves make a run for Furcal if they trade Escobar?
By MizzouBravesFan
November 5, 2008 9:13 PM | Link to this
Sounds like the Peavy deal is holding up everything else the Braves want to do.
This is my fear about it dragging out…hopefully it can get done soon?
We got other issues lol.
By Clay
November 5, 2008 9:14 PM | Link to this
DOB…When you say i don’t know if they’d have to include anything else do you mean the braves or cards might have to include more…Braves I am guessing
By Efrim
November 5, 2008 9:14 PM | Link to this
DOB
Will the Peavy matter hold up everything for the Braves? I have to imagine it might at this point. They can’t sign any free agents because the signing period hasn’t started. But any other trade that might have interest in doing may have to wait until the Peavy deal is done. Am I wrong in thinking that? Of course, getting Peavy is a pretty big deal, so I suppose it is worth the hold up on other fronts.
By Alex
November 5, 2008 9:15 PM | Link to this
Do we have a good SS replacement anyways?
By siskel
November 5, 2008 9:18 PM | Link to this
DOB
Where does Omar Infante fit in with the Braves next season? SS if we trade Esco? I wouldn’t be opposed to Omar and Prado in the infield, great defense and both young team players who Bobby seems to like so why not move both especially with a return of Ludwick or Ankiel? Also any possibility of a deal with the White Sox for Vasquez and or Dye?
By Jeff
November 5, 2008 9:22 PM | Link to this
DOB sir:
I can understand the Braves being against trading Esco (as he should be among our untouchables a la Hanson, etc), but in KJ’s case we have a viable replacement in Prado, etc.
Furthermore, if the Braves are willing to give up Esco (which will prove a mistake IMHO), then I don’t see why they wouldn’t also trade KJ, esp. for a player like Ludwick.
PS: If we trade Esco, etc. for Peavy and he gets hurt (and that should be at least somewhat a concern IMHO), then this will have turned out as bad or worse than the short-sighted Tex trade did for us.
By keylargo
November 5, 2008 9:23 PM | Link to this
Just found out that the Cardinals would take either Escobar or KJ in the deal for Ludwick. Don’t know if they’d have to include anything else. DOB
Let’s get Bobby’s Cox to negotiate with the Cardinals and convince them to take Prado instead.
By Marty
November 5, 2008 9:25 PM | Link to this
used cars
Ludwick’s past performanced definitely indicates that he would be perfect for the 4-spot in the lineup. As another blogger pointed out, Ludwick was the Cardinals’ cleanup hitter last year. For those who haven’t looked, he batted .299 with 40 doubles, 37 homers, and 113 RBI, an on-base percentage of .375, and a slugging percentage of .591. His .501 minor-league slugging percentage indicates that last season may have been a high point but was probably not a complete aberration. Those are cleanup-guy numbers.
By Andrew
November 5, 2008 9:26 PM | Link to this
Dave, if the trade for peavy goes through and it is indeed Yunel, what do you think about bringing back Edgar for a year or two?
By DHD
November 5, 2008 9:27 PM | Link to this
Any chance we ship Escobar for Ludwick and KJ for Peavy THEN sign Furcal?
By B-RITT
November 5, 2008 9:30 PM | Link to this
Lets just say that the Bravos pull off a Peavy or Ludwick deal (really dont want to jinx these possible trades). Could you imagine the press ESPN would put on this team, either the man who COULD have been MVP last year if not for his teammate (who he, in my opinion, helped have a great 2008), or arguably the best NL SP. Wow. People who doubt this team may actually change their tune a little. Add to either of these guys a more experienced JJ and McCann (who IS the best off. C in baseball), and a lock of .315 from chipper and youll have a team that not only could, but SHOULD contend. Call me an idealist, but the 2009 Braves (with the addition of Peavy or Ludwick) can compete with ANY team in the NL East.
By David O'Brien
November 5, 2008 9:31 PM | Link to this
Siskel, I think it depends who’s dealt. Infante could be a regular shortstop, but might have more value as a utility guy. Of course, if they don’t have another SS except Lillibridge, they might decide Infante is needed there.
Just too early to tell.
By Doc Holliday
November 5, 2008 9:33 PM | Link to this
Blanco
Yunel
Chipper
McCann
Ludwick
Prado
JF
Diaz/Schafer/Anderson/BJ (whom ever wins the job)
Peavy/Jair/Campillo/Hampton/Hanson
By brian
November 5, 2008 9:37 PM | Link to this
DOB - in regards to the Escobar or KJ for Ludwig you said you don’t know if they would have to include something else. By they I assume you mean the Cardinals having to add to Ludwig to obtain KJ or Escobar.
Too bad we could not get Wainwright from the Cardinals in any deal
By AdirondackDave
November 5, 2008 9:37 PM | Link to this
DOB — Hate to see Escobar go but… to get Peavy, yes. Do you see Infante as a possible full-time replacement and if not, why not?
By Retch
November 5, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this
IF WE CAN GET LUDWICK FOR KJ DO THE DEAL NOW. WHO CARES IF WE TRADE YUNEL TOO. WE NEED POWER IN THE LINEUP.
Andrew, We don’t need Edgar back!! He had the range of a tree stump when he was here and it hasn’t improved!!
By Mark J
November 5, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this
David, I know you’re probably hearing a lot of Braves fans discussing the availability of Furcal, but wouldn’t the braves have the funding to bring him back IF Escobar was involved in a package to bring Peavy to ATL and KJ was sent to St. Louis for Ludwick? I know you said the Braves wouldn’t trade BOTH Escobar and Johnson this offseason, but could this be a plausible scenario?
By Jamie in Richmond
November 5, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this
David O’Brien
Any idea who the Braves might target to play short should they move Esco? Are the Renteria/Furcal mentions on this blog nothing more than exuberant fan chatter, or have you heard anything to subtantiate either as options?
By MGL
November 5, 2008 9:40 PM | Link to this
DOB - Thanks very much for the consistant feedback on what’s cooking at the meetings. An excellent job.
I was fortunate to be dining on the patio of the local McD’s tonight. Had a wonderful concrete table and bench overlooking the parking lot. After dining on a double cheesburger and fries from the dollar menu, I treated myself to a Pall Mall light from my $16 per carton private stash. Those GMs have it rough out there compared to my lovely dinner.
By Salty Dawg
November 5, 2008 9:43 PM | Link to this
Sounds like the Peavy deal is holding up everything else the Braves want to do.
It is still VERY early in the trade season. Notice that there has not been a single trade yet. You can bet that any team that has desirable chips to trade is not going to jump in without fully testing the waters. They want to make sure they aren’t leaving anything on the table. The Peavy trade, whether to the Braves or not, may very well be the first deal finalized (or at least announced). And let’s not forget that starting pitching is the largest hurdle we need to tackle this off season, so if it takes some time to get a guy of Peavy’s caliber and contract, then so be it.
By DHD
November 5, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this
Not exuberant chatter…just asking a question.
Another question, Dave:
Do we get insurance money for Hudson this coming year?
By Marty
November 5, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this
Unless DOB says otherwise, I think it’s pretty unlikely that Renteria or Furcal coming here is anything more than a pipe dream.
By mike
November 5, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this
is it just me or is this the most active atlanta has been in an offseason in a long time? I enjoy seeing their approach to really right this ship and put the braves back where they belong atop the NL EAST. First time posting so just gonna throw my thoughts out there. I think the braves really need to be able to capitalize on getting Peavy, and either Dempster, Lowe, etc… Getting that combination will allow Jair to develop with less pressure next year. Jair is crucial to the braves in my opinion, he is still very young and we need to really take care of him because I see him as our ace of the future. This also allows the braves to bring back hampton, and then glavine or smoltz. With hudson returning late in the year, the braves would have sufficient starting pitching to bring home the nl east. peavy, dempster/lowe, jair, hampton, campillo/hanson, then return of the old guard later in the year. i just think shoring up our starting rotation is very important this offseason, then the braves should find alternatives to left field. it’s an exciting time to be a braves fan, especially seeing all the work being done by wren and the braves organization to get this team back to where it was. thanks for all the work dave o’brien!
By Efrim
November 5, 2008 9:46 PM | Link to this
If Ludwick and Peavy are acquired, I figure we would still have something like 25-30 million to spend on any other additions the Braves would like to make. Ludwick would get a raise, but not more than 3-4 million.
By Andrew
November 5, 2008 9:50 PM | Link to this
yeah Retch trade your whole middle infield away thats pretty smart maybe you should be the GM. For Ludwick who had one good year and is older than the too. Edgar could be solid for another couple of years if on the right team.
By geauxbraves2000
November 5, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this
Wait a second, did I read something about the Braves being interested in Jake Peavy?
Just kidding.
Geaux Braves!!
By MattyRoss
November 5, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this
Doc Holliday,
That’s a ballsy lineup you’ve got there, what with four outfielders and no first baseman. I guess we’ll hope for fly ball pitchers, maybe tell Peavy to ditch the sinker. Also operating under the supposition that Escobar doesn’t leave in the Peavy trade. Can’t see Braves getting Towers to trade him without giving up Yunel or Hanson, though that would be great.
By Eric from MO
November 5, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this
Jeff no shiit if we trade Escobar for Peavy and Peavy gets hurt it is a bad trade. You can say that about any trade. If it was a sure thing then there would be no need for negotiations but we have to have an ace. We cant win without one and other than Sabathia there is none on the free agent market. Sorry Burnett is barely above .500 and Derek Lowe is at the end of his career.
By McFann O
November 5, 2008 9:56 PM | Link to this
Howdy! Can’t stay long…
Hey, Fake McFann, why do you keep posting “First” using my name?
Jeff Esco having a healthy season would certainly help matters, just as we saw with McCann.
Technically, McCann hasn’t had a completely heathy season since ‘05…sprained ankle in ‘06, bruised finger, jammed knee, and ankle problems in ‘07, and bruised thigh, ankle (that was just one game), concussion, and bruised thigh again in ‘08…
Well, I’m not complaining, here. Not trying to make you give pity to my mann or anything…just pointin’ that out.
By bravos11
November 5, 2008 9:56 PM | Link to this
DOB
Since the braves will most likely trade KJ or Esco to the Padres, does that mean the braves will only be able to get Peavy and not Ludwick? Since the braves do not want to trade both infielders.
By Salty Dawg
November 5, 2008 10:00 PM | Link to this
Lot’s of people are speculating a return of Furcal should the Braves be forced to move Escobar. I just don’t see it happening. From everything I’ve heard (granted I am not an “insider” or anything, so I certainly don’t know for sure) the Dodgers want Furcal back and the feeling is mutual. I would image that for a Hispanic player being is SoCal is about as close to home as you can get. Not to mention he wants at least a 4 year contract and that is a stretch for a guy who missed most of last season due to back surgery.
By Joe M.
November 5, 2008 10:01 PM | Link to this
Doc Holliday, I really doubt Blanco will be an everyday player again next year, so I think your lineup is not gonna happen right from the start in the leadoff spot.
By Eric from MO
November 5, 2008 10:02 PM | Link to this
Retch Renteria is a fine defensive player. Doesnt have the range of Furcal but also doesnt throw the ball away. Too many times you see shortstops throw the ball over the first basemans head allowing the runner to advance. Renteria doesnt do that. He keeps himself under control. Something you obviosly cant do cause you want to trade our entire middle infield.
By Marty
November 5, 2008 10:02 PM | Link to this
This is very likely going to be the most active the Braves have been in an offseason in a while, and there’s a very good reason for it — essentially all of the Braves’ long-term contractual commitments are now gone. Other than McCann, the Braves have NO ONE signed past ‘09, I believe. More money and more flexibility equals more effort at making trades. I (and many other people) tried to tell people the last several years, when they were complaining about how the Braves allegedly don’t spend any money, that the Braves had already spent it. Well, now they finally have the chance to spend a lot more, for the first time in years.
Let’s hope Frank Wren does a good job spending.
By Salty Dawg
November 5, 2008 10:03 PM | Link to this
Mike-
Welcome to the blog. And I agree with your thoughts - this does seem like the most busy Braves off season I can recall. But it’s also the most exciting I can recall. I am really pumped that we have a chance to make some key acquisitions to right the ship.
By Apollo
November 5, 2008 10:05 PM | Link to this
Dave, Would it then be possible that we end up with both Peavy and Ludwick if it is true that Atlanta will not trade both middle infielders? I guess what I’m asking is, does a potential Ludwick deal hinge on the availability of Johnson?
By Marty
November 5, 2008 10:06 PM | Link to this
McFann O - Good to see you again, buddy.
By Bubdylan
November 5, 2008 10:08 PM | Link to this
Efrim, How can we have Peavy and Ludwick both, though, without shipping both infielders?
By Andrew
November 5, 2008 10:10 PM | Link to this
yeah Eric from MO knows the deal, im just saying cuz first we need to get Peavy which is far from a done deal. Edgar will be a FA and i think he would come back to ATL and shouldnt cost tons of money allowing them to get another pitcher and a power hitting outfielder. I know he strikes out a ton but then again so does Ryan Howard of the champions philly, but where is Adam Dunn in all this talk. Why wouldnt they consider that?
By McFann O
November 5, 2008 10:11 PM | Link to this
OK, maybe I was complaining a little, but I still wasn’t asking for pity.
BTW—That Manta Ray at the Aquarium is way cool!
Night, all.
By Efrim
November 5, 2008 10:13 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan
Good point man. Looks like one or the other if the Wren wants to keep either KJ or Yunel.
By David O'Brien
November 5, 2008 10:24 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan, I’m sure that’s one reason the Braves are trying to get Peavy without giving up Escobar. If they could somehow manage to do that, then they could perhaps choose between Escobar and KJ to send to the Cardinals for Ludwick, presumably KJ if the Cards would do it (perhaps with something else thrown in from Braves’ end, but who knows.
By Dan
November 5, 2008 10:30 PM | Link to this
Escobar has been good and has the potential to be great. You can’t trade a shortstop with that high of a ceiling who’s already had success in the majors. Even for Peavy. Use KJ to get the deal done if possible. If Towers says Escobar is what it takes to get the deal done say thanks but no thanks.
By JC from UT
November 5, 2008 10:31 PM | Link to this
If FW has thechnace to add both Peavy and Ludwick, why would he not trade both Yunel and KJ? Prado would be the 2nd baseman regardless if Yunel is dealt or not so essentially FW would only be replacing Yunel (Not saying that is a easy task). To replace Yunel or KJ why not sign a guy like David Eckstein or even go bigger and sign Orlando Cabrerra? This team needs a big shake up and Eckstein and Cabrerra are both proven winners.
By David O'Brien
November 5, 2008 10:33 PM | Link to this
DHD: yes, Braves get insurance money for Hudson. no, I don’t know how much, and Braves aren’t going to say. About 50 percent, give or take 10 percent, is probably a good guess.
As for all the questions about Furcal/Renteria: Furcal’s clearly the better player at this stage and would give you a leadoff guy sorely lacking since he left, but if there’s any chance to get either, I’d say it’s Renteria just because you could probably do it with a one-year contract. But I don’t know if Braves are ready to go back there or not, after his season last year.
Furcal’s agent is talking four-year contracts and doesn’t think Furcal’s back problems that sidelined him much of last season should even affect his value. Which is, of course, unrealistic.
But it gives you some idea of what he’ll be asking for, which at his age and with his health issues, would make probably make him highly unlikely target for Braves.
By Tomahawkin
November 5, 2008 10:37 PM | Link to this
D.O.B. Nuff respect on the Q-Tip CD Debut… Its nice when anyone refers to the old rap as the real stuff before the genre came to the point where everyone who is out now is trying to make the biggest Pop-Tart Hits
I’m Suprised that you don’t listen to that Lil Wayne, or new T.I. Stuff…
On the real, however any word of Tavares from the Rockies… I wouldn’t mind seeing him hit leadoff for us while Blanco hits eighth…but then again Braves pitchers are inept at moving runners over via the sac but. During the glory years sac bunts were a trademark of our great starting pitchers…
I suggest that in a sense that baseball is starting to return to the speed/ defense styles that we saw before the Juiced baseball/steroid era…
By Andrew
November 5, 2008 10:42 PM | Link to this
Dave you are a rockstar.
By Ryan S
November 5, 2008 10:43 PM | Link to this
Any chance the Braves trade for Edwin Jackson or Andy Sonnanstine?
By BravesFanInRockies
November 5, 2008 10:50 PM | Link to this
Tomahawkin,
Willy Taveras is a terrible player. He can run. That’s it. He doesn’t walk enough to be a leadoff hitter. He strikes out about three times more often than he walks. He doesn’t bunt well. He has no power. He’s not a particularly good outfielder. He’s also a whiner — Clint Hurdle, who’s about as easygoing as Bobby Cox, has numerous closed-door meetings with him when he publicly complained about lack of playing time.
I understand how his speed can mesmerize some people, but he’s not a good ballplayer and the Braves should go nowhere near him.
By David O'Brien
November 5, 2008 10:52 PM | Link to this
Tomahawkin, I asked about Tavares on Monday after the rumor of Braves interest, and was told it was unfounded. Nothing to it. Braves not interested.
By Clay
November 5, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this
Well I traded for Ryan Ludwick in my mlb08 the show season. First ab double, 2nd ab Home Run. Looks like a good idea atleast for my season next year.
By StingerSplash
November 5, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this
Think the Yanks didn’t rue not dealing Kennedy/Hughes for Johan? A stud ace like Peavy doesn’t have impact on just one game, the one he starts. His ability to go 7, 8 or 9 means he impacts the next two or three games because the bullpen isn’t spent coming in after him. And we saw what that means this year. All too frequently. The Red Sox held on to Lester and Buchholz instead of dealing for Santana and while Lester showed he’s about to be one of the, if not the, best young lefties in the AL, Buchholz may be shipped elsewhere. How about an Escobar and others package for Bay and Buchholz?
By mitchie-san
November 5, 2008 11:04 PM | Link to this
If Yunel goes and K.J. stays, what are the chances of him moving to SS? Didnt he come up as a SS? I thought I read he went from SS to OF to 2B….. If thats the case what 2nd basemen are available?
By Yars
November 5, 2008 11:05 PM | Link to this
Getting Peavy is more important than acquiring Ludwick. If we have to give up Escobar in order to get Peavy, let’s do it. After we do that, if we don’t have enough trading pieces to get Ludwick, then maybe we should focus on Ankiel.
By Doc Holliday
November 5, 2008 11:11 PM | Link to this
MattyRoss my bad……….
Blanco/Schafer
Yunel
Chipper
Brian
Ludwick
Prado
Kotchman
JF
By Wayne
November 5, 2008 11:17 PM | Link to this
DOB Concerning your 8:51pm post on KJ/Escobar not both being dealt.
If I were the GM, I would make those two moves in a heartbeat. To get a 30+ HR potential right-handed power bat and a #1 ace stud starter, I would start over again with my keystone combo.
Prado, Infante (agree he is better as a utility guy than a starter) and Lillibridge. I suspect that there are a few middle infielders out there that would do OK in a pinch if Lilly didn’t show well in the spring.
I personally can’t see keeping a both of those guys if we can truly get the OF’er and stud #1.
Heck, then offer Lillibrige and Francoeur to KC for Aviles and Teahen. Maybe they would bite. (I normally would prefer to keep Frenchy, as I think he will rebound.)
By Daniel
November 5, 2008 11:19 PM | Link to this
Ok so lets say the Braves get Peavy, and have to give up escobar to get him. WHO WILL PLAY SS????????? Im always hearing that Brent is/was a big prospect, is he capable of playing ss everyday offensivly?
By Moby Grape
November 5, 2008 11:23 PM | Link to this
On the real, however any word of Tavares from the Rockies… I wouldn’t mind seeing him hit leadoff for us while Blanco hits eighth
I find it hard to believe that the Braves could be seriously interested in such a pitiful player.The only thing he can do is steal bases and he makes far too many outs for that to be effective.He stole 68 bases and only scored 64 runs in an offensive park. Just how productive was that with his sun-.300 OBP ? Bah.
By keylargo
November 5, 2008 11:23 PM | Link to this
Mitchie - KJ was not going to make the major leagues as a shortstop supposedly. They moved him to the outfield and then to 2B.
Glenn Hubbard deserves a lot of credit for working with him for the last couple of years turning him into an above average 2B. IMHO, changing positions is one of the hardest things to do once you are at the MLB level. And KJ has done it and never complained once. I hope he stays with the team as he is an example of what a team player should be.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 5, 2008 11:25 PM | Link to this
Trading Escobar to get Peavy is like robbing Peter to pay Paul. Which is why I don’t believe a word of it.
By Wayne
November 5, 2008 11:27 PM | Link to this
Daniel Two years ago, could you say with a certainty that Escobar could play ss everyday offensively?
Kid is a good SS defensively, and potentially a decent bat. Sometimes you gotta roll the dice on a player and see what he turns into.
“Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Goodtime Charlie’s got the blues!”
By Moby Grape
November 5, 2008 11:28 PM | Link to this
If Yunel goes and K.J. stays, what are the chances of him moving to SS? Didnt he come up as a SS? I thought I read he went from SS to OF to 2B….. If thats the case what 2nd basemen are available?Mitchie
They moved him away from SS for a valid reason. He was absolutely terrible there. There is no chance in the world that they are going to move him back to short. Keep looking for a SS if YE leaves
By Tomahawkin
November 5, 2008 11:30 PM | Link to this
BravesFanInRockies Thanks for the 411 or your last quote
“He’s not a particularly good outfielder. He’s also a whiner — Clint Hurdle, who’s about as easygoing as Bobby Cox, has numerous closed-door meetings with him when he publicly complained about lack of playing time.”
I believe some of that 411 I thought about earlier came from MLBtraderumors.com Wasn’t he 3rd or 4th up in the Rookie of the Year voting in 05?
I had no Idea he has a Soriano like attitude in how he addresses matters on and off the field
By BravesFanInRockies
November 5, 2008 11:30 PM | Link to this
And having Blanco and Taveras in the lineup at the same time? With Francouer, too, I guess .Hellooooo, 110 losses …
By N8
November 5, 2008 11:33 PM | Link to this
Scrolled up and didn’t see this next quoted posted by anybody, so I’ll put it out there. It’s from Ken Rosenthal’s latest post on foxsports.com’s website:
“The Cubs have emerged as a front-runner in the Peavy sweepstakes, perhaps even ahead of the Braves, according to major-league sources.”
Add to that, the article stated that the Cubs are willing to trade for Peavy AND still make an offer to Ryan Dempster.
The article also said that the Cubs’ pitching prospects are farther away from the majors than the Braves are, so….
Hmmmmm… Peavy, Zambrano, Demster and Lilly.
Not bad.
Wren better schnit or get off the pot. If he really wants Peavy that bad, it appears that things are gonna heat up a bit.
By N8
November 5, 2008 11:36 PM | Link to this
“Trading Escobar to get Peavy is like robbing Peter to pay Paul. Which is why I don’t believe a word of it.”
I’ll assume you’re talking about Peter, Paul and Mary? What’s that? Not them.
Well then you must be talking about taking money from Peter Criss to pay back Paul Stanley? What’s that? Not them either?
I don’t get it. Never mind.
By N8
November 5, 2008 11:36 PM | Link to this
“Trading Escobar to get Peavy is like robbing Peter to pay Paul. Which is why I don’t believe a word of it.”
I’ll assume you’re talking about Peter, Paul and Mary? What’s that? Not them.
Well then you must be talking about taking money from Peter Criss to pay back Paul Stanley? What’s that? Not them either?
I don’t get it. Never mind.
By MiamiBrave
November 5, 2008 11:37 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB
I would definitely take a risk on Edgar if you trade Esco.
Wouldn’t you say from what we’ve seen from Edgar that the dude is just an NL guy, always solid for the Marlins, Cards, and Braves, hasn’t cut it in the AL with the Sox and Tigers, or are you thinking age had something to do with it this time around in the AL?
I do believe Furcal will price himself out of our range, BUT if our ACE and powerhitting outfielder come via trade, I would think there could be some extra fundage left to sign someone to a position that wasn’t one of the 3 key holes we are trying to fill
Still like most of you don’t see it happening, but man, what a leadoff hitter does for a team, that cash would be well spent….
I have not enjoyed a Braves offseason like this one in a long time…finally some money to spend
By BravesFanInRockies
November 5, 2008 11:40 PM | Link to this
Tomahawkin,
He did get a fair # of ROY votes in 2005, largely because of the stolen bases. But he’s played in two of the best offensive parks in the majors through his career (Houston and Coors) and other than the steals, he hasn’t produced.
You’d think a guy batting leadoff in a hitters park would score 100 runs a year, easy. Yet he’s scored 64 each of the last two years. He’s never had more than 19 doubles. Heck, a guy with that speed oughta get 8 or 10 bunt doubles a year.
Anderson and Blanco are better players and are cheap. Neither’s my ideal leadoff hitter, but they’re better than Taveras.
By N Nine
November 5, 2008 11:44 PM | Link to this
Jamie, the signing-bonus money for Tazawa is from a different pile of cash than the major league payroll DOB
Since the total amount probably wouldn’t be too much higher than the bonus. would that mean only a very small amount of actual payroll is used? That is, assuming he accepts that particular deal.
Is that the same “pile of cash” we are putting aside for Glavine/Smoltz . The money that doesn’t count towards total 09 payroll?
By BravesFanInRockies
November 5, 2008 11:51 PM | Link to this
N8,
Rosenthal’s good, but if his sources aren’t blowing smoke up their laptops, then Towers is a genuine flake.
It looks like the Braves can offer several big-league ready players and the Cubs are talking about guys who are a year or more away.
If I’m with the Pads, I can understand writing off 2009 as a rebuilding year, but 2010 and potentially 2011 as well? Good luck with that.
By cameron
November 5, 2008 11:51 PM | Link to this
Well Im Glad To Hear That We Might Be Close To Getting Ludwick.
My Wishful Thinking Lineup & Rotation Would Be..
Rotation
1. Jake Peavy
2. Ryan Dempster/AJ Burnett
3. Jair Jurrjens
4. Tommy Hanson
5. Hampton/Glavine/Etc..
This sounds like it could be reality what do you think?
By mike
November 5, 2008 11:52 PM | Link to this
everyone seems to have the perfect solution to what the braves should do. i’ve always put my trust in the hands of bobby cox, john s., and now frank wren. when it comes to making smart baseball decisions, atlanta seems to always be in the mix. whatever road this club takes, i’ll support it to the fullest because thats what a dedicated fan does. i live in the philly area and these fans here make me sick. talk about front-runners. clearly, peavy will almost make or break our offseason. no pitcher out there can equal his importance to the braves that we have heard the braves are after. it’s not realistic to think we can get CC. here’s to hoping a peavy deal gets done soon to relieve all of our worries about our ace for next year. go get’em frank!
By mike
November 5, 2008 11:52 PM | Link to this
everyone seems to have the perfect solution to what the braves should do. i’ve always put my trust in the hands of bobby cox, john s., and now frank wren. when it comes to making smart baseball decisions, atlanta seems to always be in the mix. whatever road this club takes, i’ll support it to the fullest because thats what a dedicated fan does. i live in the philly area and these fans here make me sick. talk about front-runners. clearly, peavy will almost make or break our offseason. no pitcher out there can equal his importance to the braves that we have heard the braves are after. it’s not realistic to think we can get CC. here’s to hoping a peavy deal gets done soon to relieve all of our worries about our ace for next year. go get’em frank!
By uga-brave
November 5, 2008 11:52 PM | Link to this
i dont think anyone in the braves organization questions escobar’s ability. what they do question is his mental make-up.
the rap on him all through the minors was great tools questionable attitude. the guy no doubt has all the tools to be plus plus shortstop but you never know what is going on in his head.
that being said i would hate to see him go, but if you get the chance to get a TRUE #1 starter you gotta make the move.
peavy’s current contract is below the going rate for number one starters and if you do get to the post season power pitchers usually dominate.
By brad
November 5, 2008 11:58 PM | Link to this
Hey people wake up. Last year it was all Escobar… dam he is good. Spring training, HOLY SHT all the talk maybe MVP. First half of the season, who was better? Gets hurt, still plays better def. than any other NL SS, and because his off. stats go down (but still above avg.) yall want to trade?????? WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE. It seems all other teams want Escobar but yall. WE are talking center piece deal with peavy?!!!! doesnt that say something, SHT maybe he is, no I no he is that good. A bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush. GREAT SS ARE JUST AS RARE AS GREAT PITCHERS. WE HAVE A GREAT SS, SO WHY GO BUSH-HUNTING.
By The Goche
November 6, 2008 12:06 AM | Link to this
Wow! Lots of real info today! That’s kind of hard to come by at these kind of meetings. Great work DOB.
I’d bet no other fans in baseball have this much knowledge of what’s goin on.
Seems like half of the posts on MLBTR lately are citing you. You’ve got more info on one team than Olney, Rosenthal, etc. have on the entire league.
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 12:07 AM | Link to this
brad, not many of us are taking the loss of Escobar lightly. It’s just that some of us think it might be worth it.
By mitchie-san
November 6, 2008 12:08 AM | Link to this
I didnt realize he was that bad a SS. I am amazed they even considered him for 2nd if that was the case….hmm.
By Johnny B
November 6, 2008 12:12 AM | Link to this
Greetings all!
Don’t ya just love this stuff! Again, thanks DOB you are the man! I think you gotta do the deal for Peavy…I hate seeing Esco go as much as anybody but aside from CC who else is out there as a FA who can compare and come at such an affordable price? Dude is a legit #1 and guys we all know if you ain’t got the pitching you just ain’t gonna go far. If we lose Esco we give little bridge a shot in spring training, we can always plug Infante in at SS if it doesn’t work. Although, I agree with DOB that Infante may be to valuable as the super sub that he is. I would be willing to do the trade and go for a defensive stud with a light stick to bat 8th at SS. Strong defense up the middle makes good pitch great pitching..That said, we would definitely have to pick up a big stick #4 type hitter for LF.
I think it is way early to be giving up on “Frenchy”..Give the guy a chance to see if he can make the adjustments and find some plate discipline before we run him out of town. As someone said earlier and I agree, I don’t see his trade value bringing us anyone we could plug right in to the starting rotation or line up.
Just curious DOB, what are you’re thoughts on “Frenchy”? Is it strictly mental and can he adjust to the adjustments the league has made on him? D o you think its the contract situation or lack there of that’s contributing to his struggles? Do the Braves come back this spring with a multiple year offer or just play it out through the arbitration years if he stays with the club?
By Marty
November 6, 2008 12:21 AM | Link to this
Yunel Escobar is 26 years old and has played a season and a half of pretty darn good ball at the major-league level, but there remain questions about his makeup. His defense also wasn’t all that good last year — 16 errors in 126 games for a fielding percentage of .974, below the league average of .976.
Peavy is a known quantity — a true #1 starter who is dominant; a Cy Young winner and a guy who has a career ERA of 3.25 and whose ERA was under 3.00 in 4 of the last 5 seasons…and he’s still only 27.
The two players just are not comparable.
By Erik
November 6, 2008 12:27 AM | Link to this
Ken Rosenthal’s latest blog entry now says the Cubs are the front runners to land Peavy. According to Rosenthal the Braves had a window of exclusivity but failed to complete a deal. The Padres are now leaning towards the young pitching offered by the cubs.(Even though ours is better) Just as well I feel much better about a KJ for Ludwick swap. There are other pitchers out there. The Free agent market has several #2 and 3 starters and maybe the braves can look to the trade market for another potential 1. I still think Greinke could be a possibility. I would love to see a deal with Fenchy, Flowers, Morton, Locke, sent out there for Greinke. In that scenario we have two holes filled for under ten million and We have no hole at SS. We can plug Prado in at 2B. We then can sign a FA right fielder like Adam Dunn for about 15 mil a year as well as Lowe for about 16 a year. Our Lineup then could be
(1)Anderson/Schaffer/Blanco (2)Escobar (3)Chipper (4)Ludwick (5) Dunn (6) McCann (7) Kotchman (8) Prado
Rotation would be (1)Greinke (2)Lowe (3)JJ (4)Campillo(why has he been left off your lists or projected rotations, He had a sub 4 ERA in 160IP last year) (5)Hampton/Smoltz/Rookie
Hanson WILL NOT BE READY at the start of the season. More than likely he will be a post all star break addition.
If you cant get an ace you need to up your run production. That Lineup gives 4 guys with 25-30 HR power and 2 with 35-40 HR power including a guy who has hit 40 HR in each of the last 3 seasons. That lineup would have massive run production potential. That Rotation would also have the potential to have 4 guys with a sub 4 ERA. That would be a nasty teams.
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 12:34 AM | Link to this
JohnnyB, I think it’s probably a few things with Francoeur, who had a bad year but certainly can rebound from it and return to at least be the player he was the previous year and probably significantly better.
He needed to (and said as much) lose the bulk he put on last winter and get in better baseball shape (not football shape). But more importantly, I personally think he needs to consistently be more patient (aggressive still, but patient, which is a fine line), and has to be diligent about trying to use the entire field and not get pull-happy. He needs to make adjustments to pitchers who adjusted to him the past couple of years and know how to get him out by exploiting his overaggressiveness (at times), by getting ahead in the count and getting him out on breaking pitches away.
And no, I don’t think his contract status has much to do with his struggles, though it’s certainly possible that he pressed too much early on last season to try and prove he’s worthy of a long-term deal. And sure, perhaps after he got in a hole early because of pressing, he might have tried too hard to get out of it. So I guess I might have just contradicted myself to a degree. But it’s late.
Oh, and no, I can’t see the Braves giving him a multi-year deal before next season, not after what happened this past season.
By Coach ( Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 6, 2008 12:35 AM | Link to this
Looks like the Cubs are now the favorites to get Jake Peavy, per Ken Rosenthal
By brad
November 6, 2008 12:38 AM | Link to this
Marty Here we go about stats agian. Hey look up Furcals stats when he was young, with the range he had, and (close) still has and the errors he made. Go ahead!!!!! HMMM, look like Escobars???, YEP they do. Stats mean nothing when you have range. Stats are something that bloggers BIT*C about, while the athletic ability is what the GM’S want.
By Taylor S
November 6, 2008 12:39 AM | Link to this
DOB… There is an article by yahoo’s Tm Brown that says the Braves are so optimistic about getting Peavy they are working to replace the players they would send to Sandiego in the deal. Are we that close ?
By Jim
November 6, 2008 12:39 AM | Link to this
Wouldn’t it be great to have Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine and Cox all retire at the same time so they all can be admitted to the Hall of Fame together on the same day? I think it would be awesome.
By J.D.
November 6, 2008 12:40 AM | Link to this
DOB, Rosenthal is reporting the Cubs have moved ahead of Atlanta in the Peavy sweepstakes? Is that what you are hearing?
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8761340/Sources:-Cubs-pursuing-RHPs-Peavy,-Dempster
By Foo Fighter
November 6, 2008 12:41 AM | Link to this
I just read that Ken Rosenthal says the cubs are now the front-runner to land Peavy. Frank Wren had Peavy practally given to him and he screwed it up. All he had to do is give up Tommy “mmmbop” Hanson and he didn’t do it. This Hanson guy could very well go on to be the greatest pitcher of all time. But he could just as easily wash out of baseball next year and be forced to work at olive garden. He isn’t a sure thing. But Jake Peavy is a sure thing. I bet if John Schuerholz was gm he would of got Peavy. Anyway, if we do get Peavy or if Hanson turns out to be an amazing pitcher. Then I take back everything I just said. Until then my statement stands.
By Andrew
November 6, 2008 12:41 AM | Link to this
Dave what just happend to make the cubs front runners now??
By ORbravesFAN
November 6, 2008 12:43 AM | Link to this
Right on DOB!
If Frenchy can just get back to hitting the ball to right like he did in 07, he will start coming around. Like many have said there is a difference between Frenchys early agressiveness when he first entered the league and confused like he showed much of this year. If he continues to be pull-happy we will have another AJ on our hands, only this one does not field as well.
By Steve from OH
November 6, 2008 12:44 AM | Link to this
brad:
There are a lot of stats far better than fielding % that say that Escobar is a top-notch fielder. But I’m sure those are garbage, too? Yeah, GM’s totally ignore those. Make trades based on their gut, becuase that’s how real men trade.
By BravesFanChris24
November 6, 2008 12:47 AM | Link to this
DOB
With the recent development of what Rosenthal reported about Cubs apparently becoming front runner, does that mean it lessen Braves’ chances at getting him or will Braves find a way to get Peavy?
By Moby Grape
November 6, 2008 12:48 AM | Link to this
His defense also wasn’t all that good last year — 16 errors in 126 games for a fielding percentage of .974, below the league average of .97
Huh? He is rated in the top 5 defensive shortstops in MLB by every evaluator out there. Number of errors alone is an absurb way to rate an infielder
By Tomahawkin
November 6, 2008 12:48 AM | Link to this
BravesFaninRockies Thanks for the data. For some reason ESPN had him hyped up a couple of years ago…
Someone suggested it awhile ago, but how do u feel about Hunter Pence in the “A”…?
We can’t afford to trade for a 1-yr rental like Holliday…
And from my perspective we need to spend the 09 season in a rebuilding mode if we lose out on Peavy…
By HeywardTheFuture
November 6, 2008 12:50 AM | Link to this
screw Peavy. Now we can get Ludwick.
By ORbravesFAN
November 6, 2008 12:51 AM | Link to this
The Braves are the favorite to get Peavy, the only reason people are saying the Cubs are now the favorite is because Towers is trying to scare the Braves into a better offer. Rosenthal even says the Braves have the best package to offer, everybody knows it and the Padres just want to try again to drive up the price. Peavy will be on the mound in Phillie up against Cole.
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 12:53 AM | Link to this
So I clicked on that Kenny Rosenthal link, and I see this paragraph:
The Cubs have emerged as a front-runner in the Peavy sweepstakes, perhaps even ahead of the Braves, according to major-league sources.
Funny how different people can read into things what they want to read into them.
Examine the paragraph closely.
Kenny’s writes that the Cubs have emerged as a frontrunner — not the frontrunner, mind you, but a frontrunner — and adds perhaps even ahead of the Braves.
No problem there. He has a source telling him that it’s possible the Cubs are even ahead of the Braves.
The problem occurs when the statement is ready and turned into a definitive by someone else, which Rosenthal clearly didn’t intend for it to be.
“Looks like the Cubs are now the favorites to get Jake Peavy, per Ken Rosenthal,” writes Coach above.
Not to pick nits or anything, but no. No, that’s not what Kenny wrote.
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 12:56 AM | Link to this
Mr. O’brien, we’re having a Cubs Freak-out Party. Little help?
By Ronald Millsaps
November 6, 2008 12:58 AM | Link to this
FRANK WREN, PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING:
We don’t need trades. We don’t. We do not. We do not need trades. Please don’t pull the trigger on any. (My repetitiveness isn’t meant condescendingly.) I follow this team perhaps more thoroughly than anyone else, and this team FINALLY hit fifth gear late in the season. Please note that the Phillies won their three series quite easily but were beaten soundly by the Braves in the last regular-season matchup of the year. Please don’t trade Kelly Johnson, Yunel Escobar, or Jeff Francoeur. Honestly, doing so would be quite foolish. Johnson has been misused in the lineup throughout the vast majority of his time here and has a rarified swing that said mishandling has impeded; Escobar has the potential to be one of the best shortstops ever—offensively and defensively, and Francoeur just had a down year. To send him to Kansas City would be highly premature and somewhat insulting to a local guy. (It also wouldn’t do much for your constituents—fans, whose revenue is wanted and needed by the team.) The Braves have $40 million available. Fine. Use it. Forget about trades; just use it. Offer C.C. Sabathia $23 million and the rest to Adam Dunn. Sabathia’s presence would take pressure off the rotation (which is pretty good, actually) and the overused bullpen, and Dunn’s presence would supply a lot of power that was lacking in 2008. He might strike out a lot, but honestly, his strikeouts would be welcomed in comparison to Mark Teixeira’s exorbitant double-play tendency last season, and his aforementioned power swing would drive in a lot of runs that have been left on base— not a bad formula against all these one-run losses. He also would take pressure off of Chipper and everyone else in the lineup and could lead to a ten-point increase in batting averages per hitter for a team that already hits very well… which returns me to an earlier point: This team already is pretty good. It really is. Injuries decimated this team, and 2008 really, in many ways, should be thrown out in terms of flat statistics. Losing John Smoltz, Tom Glavine, Peter Moylan, Tim Hudson, and not having Mike Gonzalez, Mike Hampton, etc. for substantial parts of the season is not just substantial but downright overwhelming. Honestly, we’re fortunate that Francoeur had what MOST LIKELY should be the worst season of his career this season—and he regained his swing down the stretch. Why trade him now? Also, Josh Anderson developed as a true leadoff man down the stretch and has the hitting prowess, intelligence, and speed that a leadoff man should have. Follow him up with Escobar, Chipper, Dunn, McCann, Francoeur, Blanco, and Johnson, and you have absolutely no need for Ryan Ludwick. Trust me. My lineup brings me to another earlier point: Why has Johnson not batted lower in the order more often? Bobby’s an amazing manager, but Charlie Manuel, for example, has him beaten offensively. The Phillies go from first to third better than anyone else…hands down. This team simply hasn’t executed that well, and to trade proven players or prospects would lead to more overlooking of offensive flaws—a rare fault that this great team has shown over the years, as it tends to have a laissez-faire approach to offense and put all the pressure on the pitching and defense. As amazing a manager as Bobby is, he probably could do more with the lack of offensive chemistry this team has displayed—-again, a lot of hits, a lot of runners left on base. This team finished third in the NL in hits but didn’t win half its games. That scenario is problematic. It needs to execute better, run more, and be smarter. (Brandon Jones reluctantly broke for second in the ninth inning of a game late this season and got tagged out for it….I’m not picking on him; this example is just one of many.) The result: another double play. How many double plays did the Braves hit into in ‘08? How many men did they leave on base? How many double plays did Teixeira himself hit into while he struggled for most of his time here this season? How many one-run games did this team lose? How many times did it seem to lack cohesion? (The hit total has been rather “postmodern”…contradictory.) September actually was quite an improvement, and this team has other talent that I haven’t addressed, such as Omar Infante, Martin Prado, etc.. Honestly, some of the finest hitters in baseball are on this team, and if we ignore the problems I just addressed, I don’t care who arrives in what trade; it likely will prove to be a smokescreen for the real problem, which, aside from injuries, has been poor execution. Again, I wouldn’t trade anyone. I would sign a proven pitcher, preferably Sabathia (by the way, the Braves are a first-class organization whose history speaks much louder than recent downfalls). Sabathia would listen to you. Dunn would like to play here. This team has a lot to offer free agents. Let’s not assume the grass is inherently greener on the other side and trade away our core talent. I said on one of the postgame shows in 2007 that this team should make a push for Brad Lidge because his stock was down only temporarily; I know a little about what I’m talking about, and if Francoeur struggles in ‘09, I’d move him to the “two” hole—a la Jayson Werth—as opposed to dropping him in the order, where he’ll see fewer pitches and will be pressured to press. I would not trade Escobar, Johnson, or Francoeur. Again, the talent is here; the overall health and execution have not been.
By Erik
November 6, 2008 12:59 AM | Link to this
Tomahawkin With all due respect I think you are dead wrong. This will most likely be Smoltzy’s last year and could be Cox’s last year as well. I think we owe it to both of them to at least give them the hope of a playoff run.
Lets send them out in fashion.
If we can trade for and/or sign pitchers to the top 2 spots then we should have the top 3-4 spots filled in our rotation for the next 4 or 5 years. Not to mention Hanson, Tazawa(if we get him), and Rorhrbrough coming up in the next couple years. That gives us some time to let our farm system recover and develop depth again.
By Coach ( Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 6, 2008 1:00 AM | Link to this
The three reasons why the Cubs really do have the inside track on Jake Peavy.
Rich Hill
Sean Marshall
Jeff Samardzija
All three are major league ready. Any two of them would instantly fit into the Padres rotation.
By mitchie-san
November 6, 2008 1:03 AM | Link to this
Thanks for clarifying DOB. I am guilty of reading it the other way too…
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 1:05 AM | Link to this
Erik, J.D. Andrew … oh, nevermind.
By Mike
November 6, 2008 1:08 AM | Link to this
DOB I would like to know your opinion or any speculation you may have on the following…(to do this lets assume the bravos land Peavy, sign Tazawa, and sign Hampton, Glavine, & Smoltz)
If we do get Tazawa and Peavy, do you feel that in the Bravos mind that consitutes our 2 pitchers that we wanted? If so then he would obviously spend at least part of next season in the minors. That being the case then we would have a rotation of Peavy, JJ, Hampton, Glavine, & Hanson/Reyes/Morton/Campilio for part of the season. Maybe that would prove to be a decent rotation that we could contend with at least for a bit in hopes that Tazawa would come up mid year and help out. Now this is where it could get dicey… If they do intend on getting another pitcher after Tazawa (lets say for arguments and examples sake…Dempster), then the real issue becomes 2010… Lets assume that Hampton does well and we pick an option on him (if we offer him a 1 year with an option), and Glavine retires, and we pick up Hudson’s option with intent to resign (I know, alot of ifs). Then 2010 could be very clustered… Peavy, Hudson, Dempster, JJ, Tazawa, Hampton, and Hanson. Thats 7 guys that should/could all start. Now of course thats alot of ifs, and we would probably have to trade some or not resign some, which of course wouldnt be Peavy, JJ, new FA pitcher (Dempster), Tazawa, or Hanson. I just hope that if Hudson comes back to form from surgery that we keep him. He just seems to be a born Brave. And if he regains dominance like he was showing and like he had in the AL, then he would be an ace we should do everything we can to hold on to. With Peavy, JJ, and a correctly projected Hanson & Tazawa, we could be talking about a rotation to rival the big 3 of the 90’s. Like I said, its all pure speculation to pass the time, and I am sure Frank Wren isnt looking at what he would do if he has too much pitching in 2010. I was just curious as to what you thought. Thanks again for the great blogs!
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 1:08 AM | Link to this
BravesFanChris24: See above.
If you, too, want to take what Kenny said and interpret it as you see fit, well, then how could it not lessen the Braves’ chances. If another team’s now the frontrunner, then Braves must not be anymore, right?
Of course, that’s not what he said. But whatever.
Dude, I wrote what I know in my story. It’s posted on our website, and my comments are also interspersed above throughout this blog’s comments section.
Tim Brown wrote his story on Yahoo, apparently saying the Braves believe they’re going to complete the deal (I haven’t read it yet, just saw Taylor refer to it).
I’m done responding to something that Kenny did not say. It’s not fair for him, and it’s a waste of time for us all. If he’d written that the Cubs ARE the frontrunner, not that a source of his believe they might be, that’s one thing. But that’s not what Kenny wrote. Read it, not someone else’s interpretation of it.
By Ronald Millsaps
November 6, 2008 1:08 AM | Link to this
runners* left on base
By ORbravesFAN
November 6, 2008 1:09 AM | Link to this
Ronald
WOW!
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 1:09 AM | Link to this
Erik, J.D. Andrew … oh, nevermind.
By BravesFanChris24
November 6, 2008 1:10 AM | Link to this
DOB
I didn’t mean any disrespect by what I said. I just clearly misread what Ken said. After you examined what he said, I looked at it again closely and saw what you said and now I get it.
I guess I’m just so anxious about this whole thing, that I misread it and thought the worst that it would lessen Braves’ chances.
I’m just going to calmly follow this, so there’s no more misunderstandings or anything and hope for the best.
By Falcons do not need Hall
November 6, 2008 1:12 AM | Link to this
Ron—
Great post…totally agree with you!
By Falcons do not need Hall
November 6, 2008 1:12 AM | Link to this
Ron—
Great post…totally agree with you!
By N Nine
November 6, 2008 1:12 AM | Link to this
Ronald Millsaps you are a Team-hugger!
Also, Josh Anderson developed as a true leadoff man down the stretch and has the hitting prowess, intelligence, and speed that a leadoff man should have
not really
By Coach ( Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 6, 2008 1:16 AM | Link to this
Only David O’Brien would call that article anything or than what it is.
Front runner means first.
Ahead of the Braves means, well. AHEAD OF THE BRAVES.
The Padres initially granted the Braves an informal window of exclusivity. Thats interprets as lost opportunity.
The teams have been unable to reach an agreement on players. Um, HELLO. Earth to O’Brien, the Braves are now on the back burner.
By Earth to O'Brien
November 6, 2008 1:25 AM | Link to this
Note Mr. O’Brien: The coach is always right. God Bless Coochie and his powerful knowledge! When Coach speak thou shall listen.
By Andrew
November 6, 2008 1:28 AM | Link to this
jake peavy will be wearing the tomahawk across his chest next year, we just need to chill out.
By Erik
November 6, 2008 1:28 AM | Link to this
DOB
My most sincere apologies for starting a slew of misinformed posts. In my haste I rushed to post here rather than check the original source first. I do let my emotions get the better of me at times and I am sorry to have inconvenienced and led the other readers astray. I am tremendously thankful for your consistent Braves updates. You go above and beyond most sports journalists and for that the entire AJC Braves community is thankful.
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 1:29 AM | Link to this
If we do get Tazawa and Peavy, do you feel that in the Bravos mind that consitutes our 2 pitchers that we wanted?Mike
No, Tazawa is more like a high first-round draft pick. Very high, as in top of first round. Although he could get to the majors fast, Braves certainly wouldn’t plan on him being up right away.
Just as Smoltz, Glavine or Hampton wouldn’t count among the two pitchers Wren aims to get this winter, neither would Tazawa.
By Ron in mobile
November 6, 2008 1:32 AM | Link to this
Jeff Samardzija and Sean Marshall are good young pitchers. Samardzija might even be great one day.
Rich Hill though, not so much. He spent much of this season down in double and even single A. He did have some good games in 07, but basically lost the game 3 for them against Arizona. I remember one curveball in particular that hit a guy in the thigh,subsequently loading the bases. Then they showed Lou Pinella in the dugout with the vains bulging out of his neck…funny stuff
If the cubs offer Marmol and Theriot/Fontenot in a package. Im not sure we could beat that. I think Marmol has the best stuff on that team(Zambrano included)
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 1:33 AM | Link to this
Coach, you just demonstrated clearly that you can’t or won’t grasp nuance or subtlety in writing. There is no gray area with you. Just black and white.
If you really read what Rosenthal wrote and interpret that to mean the Braves are now “on the back burner” in the Peavy situation, well, I don’t really know what else to say. I mean, really, that’s what you take from what he wrote?
Hey, it’s all good. Nothing personal. Read things and interpret as you see fit. Cubs could certainly become the favorite and land Peavy. But that’s not what Kenny wrote in that blog entry. He wrote that a source told him they might be the favorite. Significant difference.
By Ronald Millsaps
November 6, 2008 1:33 AM | Link to this
“n nine”—Actually, that’s “really”, and no, I don’t make non-objective statements about my team; disagree all you want, but Anderson did very well at leadoff.
I identified several problems this team had, some of which seemed to be overlooked. Making a blanket trade for Ryan Ludwick, especially when it would involve trading core talent, is not the answer. (My method also involves keeping our prospects.)
Bill Parcells has talked before about how you can’t fix a problem if you don’t identify it first. Trading for Ludwick sounds good intrinsically but doesn’t address this team’s lack of chemistry and execution.
It’s 1:31 a.m.. Long day. Typing that long e-mail was a great unwind.
By Coach ( Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 6, 2008 1:33 AM | Link to this
I hate blowing holes in the hopes of the Braves fan faithful, but I’m not gonna run through life with blinders on.
The Cubs just won their division with 97 wins and went to the playoffs. They are pitching deep.
Our Braves just finished the most disastrous season since 1990. Losing 90 games and finishing fourth withing the N.L. East. The Braves pitching is in shambles.
And I’m supposed to believe that the Braves are ahead of the Cubs and everybody else in the Jake Peavy sweep stakes? Right and Barack Obama is the next Messiah.
By Andrew
November 6, 2008 1:41 AM | Link to this
Dave, Just in your opinion tell me what the braves rotation will be next year?
By Tomahawkin
November 6, 2008 1:45 AM | Link to this
Erik My man, It’s early, and who knows if either Smoltz or Glavine will pitch next year ( there are many intanigibles coming back from season-ending injuries, especially to pithchers in their 40’s)
And Ur quote…
“If we can trade for and/or sign pitchers to the top 2 spots then we should have the top 3-4 spots filled in our rotation for the next 4 or 5 years. Not to mention Hanson, Tazawa(if we get him), and Rorhrbrough coming up in the next couple years. That gives us some time to let our farm system recover and develop depth again.”
Dude, No offense, but you are a serious optomist…Mostly everything that happens in the off-season is in a domino effect style, while I like your Ideas I seriously think 2009 will be a rebuilding year for Dem Braves; Especially since the Phillies “Are the Team to Beat” and the Mets will come correct, since the mets will have extra revenue because they are moving into a new ball park. And if they lose out in the offseason on the big cats, expect the Mets to make a big July deadline deal…
However, Its early in the offseason, I’m gonna go back to listening to my old 80’s R&B (Al B Sure, The System, among others) * D.O.B. * What you Know about that old Smooth R&B…?
By Andrew
November 6, 2008 1:45 AM | Link to this
Go Obama
By Coach ( Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 6, 2008 1:49 AM | Link to this
O’Brien, it’s all good. I hope you are right. But until I see Jake Peavy in a Braves uniform, I’m not gonna lose any sleep over it.
By Ronald Millsaps
November 6, 2008 1:55 AM | Link to this
“coach”—The Braves firmly ARE the frontrunners, but that’s not necessarily a good thing. We need to keep Escobar, Johnson, and Francoeur, and trading another prospect might not be the answer, either.
Jake Peavy’s terrific, but there are other options. Use the $40 million to acquire C.C. Sabathia and Adam Dunn—and we need ownership to be passionate, not cavalier. Ted Turner was the former when he owned the team.
By Ronald Millsaps
November 6, 2008 1:55 AM | Link to this
“coach”—The Braves firmly ARE the frontrunners, but that’s not necessarily a good thing. We need to keep Escobar, Johnson, and Francoeur, and trading another prospect might not be the answer, either.
Jake Peavy’s terrific, but there are other options. Use the $40 million to acquire C.C. Sabathia and Adam Dunn—and we need ownership to be passionate, not cavalier. Ted Turner was the former when he owned the team.
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 2:00 AM | Link to this
Coach, this thing is fluid. If Cubs are actually willing to give up some of those top young pitchers, they’ll get Peavy, no doubt. Just don’t know if they’re willing to give up that much to get him.
Other teams on Jake’s list probably don’t have enough young pitching talent to pull off the deal. Cubs do, if they’re willing to give it up. So do Braves.
By Bravestillidie
November 6, 2008 2:03 AM | Link to this
::Sees the sign hung around Coach’s neck reading “The End is Nigh” and walks the other way not making eye contact::
Coach…its ok to be optimistic on occasion, its also ok to admit when we are wrong or make mistakes.
To quote Obi-Wan “Only a Sith deals in absolutes.”
By Bill Clinton
November 6, 2008 2:03 AM | Link to this
Really, it depends on what Rosenthal’s definition of “is” is.
By N Nine
November 6, 2008 2:04 AM | Link to this
Coach
What the hell are Braves suppose to do??
For days now, repeatedly on and on you have been bashing how “disastrous” our pitching is.
Are we going to just drop dead and give up, since we have terrible pitching?
Didn’t someone get hurt this year?
So what Cubs had 97 wis to Braves 90 losses. 08 is over my friend!!
Pitching for contenders? He already picked Atlanta as a suitable city.
I just don’t understand you.
Rumors will always be part of life for the fun and for added advantages.
This Cubs rumor doesn’t worry me one bit. Thats nature.
I’m more than comfortable with DOB’s hands on judgements than some lame article.
Peavy is coming to Atlanta!!!!!!!..like it or not…Amen
By mitchie-san
November 6, 2008 2:12 AM | Link to this
Why spend $40mil on two players? I say spend it AND make trades. There are more holes to fill than most people think. I read every post on here and honestly believe people dont want to make trades because it might be their favorite player. There are players on the Braves that I never would want to see leave, but if it means I dont have to suffer another 90 loss season…then bye-bye. You can always reload with players you trade for. Case in point, Kotchman. Thats precisely what the Braves did in his case. I am sure Frank Wren knows what he is doing and is not going to do something stupid. I cant see him trading Yunel and then asking himself “now what?” I really dont think he wants to trade Yunel, but if he has to, he will and I will be OK with that. Bottom line, do what ever it takes to win now and not keep you fingers crossed that someone will emerge from the farm or on the team and become an ace or a 30+ HR guy. If can get them instantly….get them.
By Nick
November 6, 2008 2:14 AM | Link to this
DOB, it doesn’t surprise me a lick that the Cubs have emerged as A frontrunner, along with Atlanta, in the Jake Peavy sweepstakes. Honestly, for those of you who feel as though our time to acquire Peavy has ended, did you really feel as though the Pads would just jump all over a Braves offer that did NOT include either of our two top prospects?
The Pads HAVE to ATTEMPT to get some kind of leverage from somewhere, considering it sounds as if they have no choice about dealing Peavy THIS offseason, and with his no trade clause, they only have a few teams to consider dealing with. To me, the reports of there only being TWO teams that Towers is in deep negotions with, bodes even well for our chances of landing him. In my opinion, the cubs are doing all they can to make the Braves wink prior to the Winter Meetings. Since it’s been confirmed that the Braves and Pads have had conversations concerning Peavy that do NOT include TH, or obviously JH, I’m betting that the Padres at least want to get a player like Jordan Schaeffer to go along with Escobar, and a prospect or two. The Braves are probably looking at a package centered around Escobar, with the likes of Medlen and Rohrbrough as the pitchers the Padres get in return. Maybe even Morton instead of Rohrbrough. I’m betting that, in the end, the deal gets done with the Braves, hitting some sort of medium. Hopefully, Schaeffer stays put.
DOB, does this sound anywhere near right? Would it not surprise you if the Padres didn’t try to get some sort of leverage from somewhere else with a pitcher of this magnitude being dealt?
By Bobby's Cox
November 6, 2008 2:23 AM | Link to this
I’d rather take Ludwick for KJ than Escobar for Peavy.
Just not that comfortable with Peavy’s arm.
Rather sign Burnett and the Tarzawa dude, than to give Escobar away for Peavy.
You just don’t give away an everyday player of Escobar’s talent for a guy that pitches once every 5 days who has twice a history of elbow issues.
Especially if you can trade KJ at a position of strength, for Ludwick to fill a position of weakness (LF), while having a decent replacement for KJ, and not Escobar.
Burnett/Dempster, Tarzawa, JJ, Hanson could be a viable top 4 along with Hampton. Peavy obviously would better, but if it takes Escobar, the cards don’t fit.
Just my opinion.
By Ronald Millsaps
November 6, 2008 2:26 AM | Link to this
“mitchie”—You have to examine things carefully. It might look to you like extensive repairs are needed, but if this team seriously did acquire Sabathia and Dunn, the effects would be amazing.
Can you imagine a rotation of Smoltz, Sabathia, Campillo, Jurrjens, and Glavine (Hudson returning in August)?
This team could use some more pop in the lineup, as Brian McCann was the only guy who provided it consistently in ‘08. Francoeur’s RBI total should return to normal next season, and he probably will hit 30-35 homers. Chipper and McCann should combine for 50-55. Dunn’s an all-or-nothing swinger, like Ryan Howard, but I’d take the home runs over Mark Teixeira’s double plays and inconsistency—and I’m glad Joe Simpson pointed out the need for Teixeira to play well during all six months of the season, not design his workouts to have him ready for July-postseason only.
Dunn’s a game-changer. So is Sabathia. Two players might not sound like a lot, but their returns would be a lot.
About time for me to call it a night.
By Calvin
November 6, 2008 2:31 AM | Link to this
Is there any possibility of the Braves making smaller trades to get two pitchers?
Maybe sending a few guys to Chicago for Javier Vazquez.
Then check in on Francisco Liriano maybe?
what do you guys think?
i just dont want to come out of this offseason with a couple of good pitchers, a slugging outfielder but no middle infield.
Sure Lillibridge is supposed to be a great defensive shortstop and we have options at 2B with Prado and Infante but i seriously think the Braves will regret that decision when next year KJ and Escobar hit 20 HR’s each for another team and continue to do so for the next few years that they are cheap.
Also what about Tampa Bay? apparently they have an abundance of Pitching and a need for something lol
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 2:34 AM | Link to this
All’s well, as my man Mario Chalmers had a franchise-record nine steals tonight for the Heat. Solid rookie.
By Erik
November 6, 2008 2:37 AM | Link to this
Tomahawkin
I agree that my views tend to be optimistic. I remain confident that Smoltz will return. Smoltz has more determination than sense sometimes. I am convinced he will come back. He has the heart of a champion and a work ethic we should all aspire to have.
As for the rotation. JJ and Campillo are under control for a few more years. If we were to sign a FA starter or two it would more than likely mean we have them for about 4 years(Brunette, Lowe, and Dempster will all take at least 3-4 years)
That would give our rotation stability for the next 4 years or so. Yes I conceded 1 or 2 might suffer an injury or simply wont pan out but in that case we have Tazawa(if we can sign him), Hanson, and Rohrbrough that should be ready in the next couple years.
By mitchie-san
November 6, 2008 2:43 AM | Link to this
I can imagine that rotation, in a severe optimistical way. Smoltz? Love the guy, but he might not come back. Glavine is the same deal. Those guys are old and broken. Campillo? Who was he this time last year? Playing in Mexico, thats where. He cant be relied upon to achieve the success he had next year again.Not to mention he started to slip towards the end of the year. And Jair certainly is real good, but remember, he aint proven yet either. He is a rookie! That leaves you with C.C. as the only one who can perform as projected. What if he gets hurt and the other things occur in the rotation I mentioned, where would be be? I would jump off a cliff…… Make trades, get more proven starters. I am all about getting C.C. but there are more the Braves have to do…. Getting only C.C. would be like buying a Ferrari and forgetting your other bills.
By dave
November 6, 2008 2:51 AM | Link to this
Hey guys, I know everyone’s set on getting peavy by now, but he isn’t quite ideal. I think trading Yunel is a mistake here. He’s a very cheap and elite option at an important position.
Peavy is an elite option, but he is only a little below market price. He has some injury concerns, and we have to hold onto him for 4 or 5 years. His home/road splits are an obvious concern, and his peripherals were down last year, possibly an indication that he’s on a decline. His playoff performances have also been terrible to date.
Yunel is a very good shortstop, he’ll continue to be cheap, and we can find starters as free agents while our draft pick is protected. If we keep Yunel, we can move KJ for ludwick and slip Prado in at 2B, which would improve our defense, and add a cheap controllable power hitting righty. There is no such easy solution for losing Yunel.
It sounds like the price for Vazquez is not too high, and we may be able to get him without giving up very much. He has a very cheap contract, with only 2 years on it. His numbers will only get better when switching leagues, I think he’s a solid option for us.
I think the big problem with trading for Peavy is we’ll give up prospects and still pay a steep salary for just one guy. I think what we should do is trade whatever it costs (with a few exceptions) to get Matt Cain . He’s young, with ace potential, he’s shown it in the big leagues, and he’s signed (ridiculously) cheaply. And he’s proven to be quite durable as well. I’d really rather have him at his age than peavy at his, and he’s significantly cheaper salary-wise. To me, that would be worth giving up a lot for.
Going after Cain and Vazquez instead of Peavy would cost about the same amount of money next year, will fill 2 holes instead of one, and gets us the younger ace for the future. And in prospects we shouldn’t be giving up too much more. We’d still have about 20mil to spend and bring in one of the FA pitchers.
We’d be able to fill 3 SP holes, our LF hole, keep our star SS, and most of our top prospects too.
Am I crazy thinking we have the depth to pull this off?
Even if you think I’m crazy, humor me, what do you think it’d take for us to get Cain? and Vazquez?
By Tomahawkin
November 6, 2008 3:02 AM | Link to this
Erik As much as I love Smoltz and Glavine, they can not be relied on to be the durable (ready to go to war) pitchers they were 10 years ago…Look at Maddux for example, If he was the same caliber pitcher he was 5 years ago the Dodgers would’ve had him start in one of their playoff games, instead of being a reliver…
Seriously I don’t think our rotation as well as our lineup will not be complete til February.. (Unless we get Peavy and Ibanez/Abreu)
It’s way too early to tell…Love talking opinions to ya…BTW
Aight D.O.B. I’m listening to some old 80’s Jazz (Paul Hardcastle, and Herb Albert) Where U at…?
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 4:06 AM | Link to this
Tomahawkin, you’re right, which is why Braves aren’t counting on Smoltz or Glavine. Smoltz probably more likely to come back in a setup/part-time closer role than starter. Glavine still up in the air whether he’ll even pitch again.
Oh, and may I suggest some Nina Simone tuneage this late at night. Or Billie Holiday.
By mitchie-san
November 6, 2008 4:21 AM | Link to this
My sentiments exactly. Isnt that what we tried to do this year? We all know how that came out.
By RedandBlack
November 6, 2008 6:01 AM | Link to this
Hello,
The Braves need to keep ball players that can hit the ball. Chipper, McCann, and Escobar can hit the ball. Any trade involving Escobar is ridiculous unless it brings a proven quality .300 hitter or better. Trade Kelly Johnson and get whatever the Braves can for him including a box of hair.
The Braves should try Renteria again. He hit extremely well for Cox and the Braves just two years ago. He is a ball player. He and Escobar played well before together back then, and they can do it again. Furcal can work too, but Renteria is the better more consistent hitter for average.
Yes, the Braves need some good strong, young arms, but do not trade Escobar. His stock is good and rising. Francouer is the player who’s stock is falling and he would be a better candidate to trade than Escobar right now. Move him instead for Peavy. Do not risk our good young arms or Escobar, but make the deal somehow else. Good luck to you, Mr. Wren, and land the plane. We are all counting on you. Go Braves. Go Dogs!!!
By Jeff R
November 6, 2008 7:04 AM | Link to this
Wren is keeping focused here by making pitching the team’s off-season priority. We’ve had this discussion and debate many times before on this blog, but it’s pitching and defense that wins most games. Yes, teams need offense, but it doesn’t have to be a Murders’ Row (as in murdering the opposing pitching).
Granted, giving up Escobar in a deal for Peavy means losing a good defensive shortstop (despite last year’s mental lapses). Up-the-middle-defense ranks higher than defense on either side of the field, so, here again, Escobar would be missed.
But Wren is thinking a little more long range for the team. As others have written, he’s looking to 2010 and beyond. Not that he doesn’t want to be competitive next season, but he’s starting to position the club to contend as it moves into the new decade.
DOB reports that the Braves aren’t interested in taking Greene off Towers’ hands. That’s a good thing. Lillibridge is an option. He’s better than he played last season, though, as we all know, he doesn’t have Escobar’s bat. Then there is Renteria. If the Braves could sign him to a year’s contract, that might do the trick in the short haul.
Peavy would be a great addition. His arm is a legitimate concern, but if it checks out, then swapping Escobar for him makes good sense.
By Original Jon
November 6, 2008 7:28 AM | Link to this
Bobby’s Cox
Since when does a few times on the DL for arm issues constitute as a history of elbow issues. You would re-sign Smoltz wouldnt you? And he has had a ton or arm issues.
By Original Jon
November 6, 2008 7:43 AM | Link to this
Rosenthal says, and I quote ‘The Cubs’ young pitching is not as close to the majors as the Braves’ but still is attractive to the Padres, sources say’
To me, that almost sounds as if this is just a lie made up to get Wren to hurry up and do a deal with better players. Because Towers has said all along that he wants players that are close to being major league ready, so this makes no sense.
By Original Jon
November 6, 2008 7:50 AM | Link to this
According to Mark Feinsand of the Daily News Sports ‘According to a source, San Diego wants at least two pitchers and an outfielder in exchange for Peavy.
That doesnt fit at all what we have been hearing. So maybe Morton, Medlen and Schafer?? Keep Esco and trade KJ and a prospect for Ludwick?
By Marty
November 6, 2008 8:05 AM | Link to this
There was so much silliness posted on here overnight that I don’t even know where to start, but I’m going to try.
Coach - Your misinterpretation of plain English words is astounding. The article clearly says that the Cubs “have emerged as a frontrunner.” In English, the use of “a” instead of “the” means that the Cubs are one of the teams which currently are frontrunners, in the mind of Ken Rosenthal’s source. Just in case there were any question about the ambiguity of this assessment, Rosenthal added, “possibly even ahead of the Braves.” Adding the word “possibly” further makes it clear that the broad perception is, as DOB has reported all along, that the Braves are the current frontrunners in the Peavy sweepstakes, but that recent developments have led Rosenthal’s source to believe that this Cubs might now have pulled in front. I’m sorry to be condescending, but you just spent hours arguing incorrectly about the definition of clearly-written English.
dave, Ronald, and everyone else who thinks that Yunel should be considered untradeable - I don’t know where you folks came up with the idea that Yunel is an “elite” shortstop in the major leagues. He was pretty good in his first year-plus, but he has also been wildly inconsistent at times and has shown a tendency to make silly errors. For those of you wanting to compare him so badly to Furcal and wanting to chalk Yunel’s immaturity up to being “young,” keep in mind that Furcal was 22 when he came up (even after adjusting for him lying about his age). Yunel is now 26.
Peavy is a known quantity who has been a star pitcher and an ace for several seasons. Although there is always the risk of an injury with pitchers, he has NOT shown a tendency to be injured and, as far as we know, there is no reason to believe he will be injured in the future.
The point is that we’re not talking about trading Chipper Jones in his prime — or if we are, I just don’t see how anyone could know that yet. I watch the same games as (some of) you do, and right now Yunel looks pretty good, but not great. Wlil he become great? Maybe — but Peavy already IS great.
Adam Dunn is NOT a great hitter; he is a great power hitter. There is a reason that no contending team wants him. He can hit bombs, but he otherwise essentially can’t hit. Walks are great for a guy higher up in the order, but you want your cleanup guy to be someone who puts the ball in play. As I posted in an earlier blog, most of Dunn’s home runs are hit with no one on base, and both based on stats and my own personal observations, Dunn is much more likely to strike out or walk with men on base than he is to get a hit of any kind. Adam Dunn also hits for significantly less power on the road (.497 SLG) than in that launching pad they call Great American Ball Park (.540 SLG). This makes even less sense for a team like the Braves, who would essentially be counting on Dunn as their sole power source.
Lastly, I believe it was dave who mentioned the Braves getting Matt Cain. I don’t believe that’s a realistic option, but if it were, I would totally support that. Vazquez also would be a decent target, although I expect that he will be very overpriced. The problem with a guy like Vazquez, which further highlights the value of Peavy, is price. Peavy is locked in at a bargain (relatively speaking) price for the next 4-5 seasons.
By Shaun
November 6, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this
Marty, Adam Dunn does the two most important things while at the plate with regard to creating runs: He gets on base and he hits for power. Dunn’s weaknesses are that he is of little use anywhere defensively and on the base paths.
By 22oz
November 6, 2008 8:42 AM | Link to this
For those with XM, Francouer will be on MLB Home plate at 8:45 this morning. Wonder if he’ll talk about how he loves Kansas City?
By Harry
November 6, 2008 8:53 AM | Link to this
In the infamous words of the late Cardinal Egan, “which doesn’t belong and why?”: Lucinda, DBT, and Q-Tip?
DOB: Q-Tip? Seriously?
I put Infante at short. Dude can handle the bat, hits every ball on a rope, and can hold his own at short.
By DAP
November 6, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this
marty His[escobar] defense also wasn’t all that good last year
sorry, marty. no. escobar might b the best defesive SS in the league, and was ranked #3 by the fielding bible, i believe. he is extremly good defensivly.
and you cant compare peavy and escobar, thats true. duh. one is a pitcher and one is a SS.
By Efrim
November 6, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this
If the Braves do trade Escobar to the Padres in the Peavy deal, I would hope that they would bring in another option other than Infante and Lillibridge. I like Infante as a utility infielder and Lillibridge as the same.
By Billy Walsh
November 6, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this
What are the criteria that defines a great hitter? Although Dunn is a liability in the field, doesnt hit for average, and strikes out a ton, he will hit 40 home runs, drive in a hundred, score a hundred, walk over a hundred, and have a high on base percentage. He is the epitome of a power hitter. Although the braves will not sign him, he would solve many problems that the atlanta outfield had this season. Instead of trying to trade for an older Ryan Ludwick who has only proven himself for 1 season, why not look at Adam Dunn. I know Ludwick is cheaper, and Dunn would cost a ton, but why not consider it. You wouldnt have to trade a middle infielder (i.e. Escobar or johnson) and could package one of them to acquire Peavy.
By flange1
November 6, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this
Good Morning All,
Quite and entertaining night on the old MIB blog, huh?
Spent the last couple of hours catching up!
A couple of quick thoughts:
Is now the time to trade Frenchy? He still has value this year. It is true he COULD rebound, but another bad year and he has little value. I remember all of the talk all year long about his approach being poor and him relying on athletic ability. Can he turn it around? Should the Braves RISK letting him?
It kind of reminds me a bit of Andruw before he reached 10 and 5. Many here thought we should have traded him then. The Braves didn’t and the market dried up.
Should we trade him now? Not sure…..
On Escobar, I like the passion that Yunel plays with. Like his defense and like his offense. I do think he has some attitude issues, but he is a young man!!
I would hate to trade him, but you have to trade something to get something. I don’t want to trade Escobar and Schafer, but again you do what you have to do.
In terms of Adam Dunn, he is a power hitter that walks a lot. But he is LH. If the Braves trade Escobar, signing Dunn just makes the team more LH and without a Frenchy resurgence, the team is WAY to LH.
PASS ON DUNN!
In terms of CC, I would love to have him. I don’t think 23 million for 6 years will get it done. We have too many holes to spend this much on one pitcher.
If I was the Cubs, I would forget Dempster and Peavy and sign CC. Can you imagine a rotation of Zambrano, CC, Harden and Lilly?
Brutal…….
By mike
November 6, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this
Ronald and others, Sometimes you need to give to receive. In other words, getting Peavy and losing Escobar is a tough decision. If we factor in how beat up and over-whelmed our starting rotation was last year, I think getting Peavy needs to be taken very seriously. It’s also very unrealistic to consider the braves having a legitimate shot for CC. Not even mentioning his preferred destination, the Yankees and other teams will throw a large sum his way in which I do not feel the braves can compete. Yes, escobar has star potential. Peavy has that same potential that has already manifested itself for a couple years now. ALSO, price-wise, Peavy is a steal for a guy of his caliber. Last year jurrjens was the one starting pitcher we turned to to have a solid outing. I said this before, we need to take less pressure off of him and some of the younger starting pitchers to let them taste the big leagues. We need to make this deal for Peavy, and start the dominance again, with our starting rotation. Look at what Hamels did for the Phillies in the post-season. Look at what Rollins did. Starting pitching is far more valuable come october. In regards to Adam Dunn. He will be overpaid for the amount of homers he hits. One thing the braves do not do is spend money foolishly. Braves management uses its resources wisely to build their team, and hopefully this offseason we build what was our weakness last year, our starting pitching, then work on other areas that needs improvement.
By 22oz
November 6, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this
Highlight from Francouer interview on XM: He’d like to see Andruw back in CF for the Braves. Lets all take a moment and be thankful that he is not the GM.
By Threadkiller
November 6, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this
Billy: I say we need both Dunn & Ludwick! What a line up that would be:
Prado Ludwick Jones Dunn McCann Kotchman Frenchy Johnson
We would have to us Frency in CF to make it happen,,
By VaBravesfan
November 6, 2008 9:24 AM | Link to this
The Cubs could get Peavy, Sabathia, and sign every available free agent but they would still find a way to lose.
By NickC
November 6, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this
Just a quick note on Coach’s suggested pitchers from the Cubs.
To get Samardzija to give up football, the Cubs had to give him a no trade clause. It would be surprising to see him included in any deal.
By Efrim
November 6, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
Arizona Republic:
[http://www.azcentral.com/sports/diamondbacks/articles/2008/11/05/20081105spt-gmmeetings.html]
The Diamondbacks have interest in Atlanta second baseman Kelly Johnson but don’t believe they match up well in a trade with the Braves, who are seeking a right-handed power-hitting outfielder. The Diamondbacks have considered trying to include a third team in trade discussions to satisfy Atlanta’s needs.
I can’t imagine the Braves getting Peavy without giving up one of Hanson, Heyward or Escobar. Since Hanson and Heyward are off limits, Escobar is probably going to be in that trade. So the Kelly Johnson to this team or that team doesn’t really hold up to me until the Peavy deal is completed.
Of course if the Cubs get Peavy, which I guess is possible, then Johnson is probably on his way out of town and the Braves will try to keep Escobar.
Way too early for that kind of speculation though. It probably could go hundred different ways. Playing out these scenarios is what makes the hot stove season fun.
By Anders
November 6, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this
Lew
Now did the Mets get a deal? Absolutely. Did they need to acquire Johan? Again, absolutely. Did he perform as expected? Absolutely, yet a again. Did the deal come about because of some supposed master strategy put in place by Omar Minaya? No way. It fell into his lap because the Twins GM was greedy and misjudged the point where the other suitors withdrew their offers and walked away.
From your post last night. You missed a very important part of last year’s negotiations. The Twins asked for Reyes and other higher prospects initially while it appeared the Yanks and Sox were in play. Could Minaya have panicked and over paid to beat the Yanks and Sox to Johan?- absolutely. Especially as you say because the Mets absolutely needed Santana. So I think Minaya does deserve credit for reading the market correctly and he apparently did have a plan that came to fruition. So you go ahead and keep telling yourself that Minaya woke up one morning and found Santana out in his driveway next to the paper while all the great minds in baseball reside down in Atlanta and everbody else is “and idiot”.
By matt
November 6, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this
My 2 cents: I would hate to see KJ AND Yunel go, but if that’s what it takes to get Peavy and Ludwick, I say do it. Ludwick could make up for most of the HR, RBI numbers lost by KJ and Yunel. Maybe Braves can find a good replacement at SS (I’m not all that excited about Furcal or Renteria, for different reasons), but if not, why not give Lillibridge a try? Like some of you have said, we had great teams with Belliard/Blauser types at SS. I think Prado has proven that he deserves a shot at playing everyday.
With those two deals, you still have $$ to get a pitcher, SS, another OF, or some combination thereof.
Like I said, hopefully we don’t lose both KJ and Yunel, but don’t think it would be the end of the world.
By McFann O
November 6, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this
Marty—
Thanks!
22oz—
Good grief…
By Run DMC
November 6, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this
Hey David. Any chance that if the Escobar proposal gets the deal done that F******* comes back to Atlanta to fill the SS position? Sure would be nice to replace Escobar’s arm with one of similar strength, while also getting a bona fide leadoff hitter back in the lineup.
By Sparky
November 6, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this
Let’s hope we don’t overpay for Ludwick! One career year doesn’t justify giving up a young stud at SS!
By DAP
November 6, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this
frenchy must want andruw back to make himself look not so bad.
By Shaun
November 6, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
In terms of Adam Dunn, he is a power hitter that walks a lot. But he is LH. If the Braves trade Escobar, signing Dunn just makes the team more LH and without a Frenchy resurgence, the team is WAY to LH.
What is “too left-handed”?
I know there are valid reasons for the Braves to stay away from Dunn but is that one of them?
Dunn is still pretty good in his career against lefty pitchers.
And has the Braves offense and offenses around baseball been worse when they are left-handed heavy? I think that’s the question we have to answer before we worry about whether a player would make the team too left-handed heavy.
By tim
November 6, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this
Ah, this blog…stopped reading for a while to give myself a break from all the ranting and raving. Now I can see that the smartest baseball person in the world-Coach is still at it..You sir, are the single reason why I scroll past everyones posts to read only DOB’s. But it sounds like this place is your only refuge while the rest of us have real lives with real people who enjoy the details of the fine game of baseball balanced with a healthy life outside this little comment box..Please take the time to get outside once in a while..There are all sorts of colors and shades of gray in the world outside of your bunker..
By Lew
November 6, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this
Anders-Whatever. I just don’t think Omar is that effective a GM. With all of the money the Mets’ and their fans think they have (and SHOULD have pulling in 4 million obnoxious fans), why was Omar doing stupid things like offering Castillo, whose legs were shot to hell when the Mets picked him up as a late season acquisition (THAT was a decent move) a multi-year contract? How long did THAT last?
If Omar was so good and they had all that money, then why did Omar rely on Moises yet again (after Moises lost a half season due to chronic injury at age 40 something), knowing what everyone should have known-he would go down again. How about relying on an aged and infirm Pedro and El Duque? And don’t bother holding Smoltz and Glavine up to us either-we had money issues to deal with. Supposedly the Mets had whatever money was left over after the Yankees and Red Sox split the rest.
Sorry Dude, this breaks down two ways that I can see-1. Omar is not that great or 2.The Mets really don’t have all the money that so many think they do (and blew their load on Johan). Were either of these two suppositions false, then the Mets would have made the necessary deals or added the correct late season add ons that would have given them three successive Division Titles and at least one World Series Title.
How exactly, did that shake out? Choke One. Choke Two and Choke Three. Three chokes and they’re out. See Ya.
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this
Yes, indeed, it was an interesting late night on the blog. Wish all you regular sleepers had been here….
Best wishes on a full recovery to Merle Haggard, who had surgery for lung cancer. Sounds like he’s going OK, all things considered. In stable condition. They removed a cancerous growth….
Harry: Yes, quite serious. Q-Tip’s good. I can appreciate music in most any genre. Hey, I love to listen occasionally to a Mario Lanza CD that I own. And a Tom Jones live album. And Ted Nugent’s Cat Scratch Fever (still got a handful of his albums on vinyl). Funkadelic’s One Nation Under a Groove (and a handful of theirs). Or about a dozen Sinatra albums and CDs. And the Cars’ early stuff… OK, you get my point. All over the board.
I didn’t always lean as heavily as I do now in the direction of rootsy rock/country/blues, though that’s been my favorite stuff the past couple of decades.
By the way, if you ask Lucinda I bet she’d tell you she digs Q-Tip. No, seriously. I think I read she likes some hip-hop from his era; remember when she did a little rap on that song “Wrap My Head Around That” on the West CD? (OK, so it was perhaps ill-advised, but she did it.)
By Efrim
November 6, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this
This from Buster Olney’s blog this morning(speculation of course):
So at some point, the Braves and Padres may well strike a deal built around shortstop Yunel Escobar, center fielder Jordan Schaefer, pitcher Charlie Morton, and one more pitching prospect. The Padres are known to have interest in left-hander Jeff Locke, a 20-year-old who pitched in Single-A last season.
I think that is too much. I know, the whole offseason has to play out, and the Braves have the whole winter to fill those areas, but still. Too much given up there.
Escobar, Schafer, Morton and Locke is too much. I think my main problem is that you are now creating two holes. I know Schafer didn’t play in the bigs last year, and wasn’t a guarentee to play up there this year, but come on. He was going to get an opportunity in June(latest). You can’t play Blanco/Anderson and Lillibridge/Infante at CF and SS. At least that is my thinking. I don’t have a problem with giving up Charlie Morton and Jeff Locke. They want 2 starters. We aren’t giving up Hanson, Rohrbough, Teheran and Delgado. All are considered to have higher “ceilings”.
Just think we should keep Schafer, that’s all. Gotta give up Escobar, I understand that.
By Clay
November 6, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this
Just imagine if we do the trade for Peavy. Say we give up Escobar, Morton, Schafer and Low pitching prospect. Then do the KJ for Ludwick trade. Royals said if they can’t get a Grinke extension they might look to trade him. Put an offer in of Francoeur, Jo Jo, Gorkys and Medlen. Sign D. Lowe after that. That leaves us with a rotation of Peavy Grinke Lowe JJ Campillo
After that when then sign any shortstop for cheap or keep Lillibridge. Maybe a Renteria for 1 year and 5 million. That would leave us to find a right fielder somewhere with a trade or FA.
Lineup of 1) Blanco/Anderson 2) Renteria 3) Chipper 4) Ludwick 5) McCann 6) Kotchman 7) RF bat 8) Prado
If i am doing my math correctly would could do all the at because Peavy +15 Grinke trade is a wash and Ludwick trade is a wash money wise. Sign Lowe for 1owe for 15 mil a year. That is +30. Sign Renteria for 5 mil. +35 With 10 mil left we could either add Smoltz Hampton RF Bat or Ohman. Maybe it won’t match money wise but I am thinking it would. Tell me what you all think? Even by all these trades we keep Hanson and Heyward.
By Anders
November 6, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this
Lew
Omar’s teams have finished 1, 2,and 2 the last three years. The last two out by a game each. I’m thinking he doesn’t have to apologize to anyone. Has he made some bad decisions? sure. Who hasn’t? The Braves imploded last year because they relied on two geriatric pitchers and a 3rd baseman who can’t play more than 120 games. A closer and CF’er with injury histories and a 1st baseman who historically takes two months to get loose. A Left fielder who can’t hit righties and a neophyte SS. Who’s decisions were those? By the time Hudson went down they were finished already. Stuff happens. But when it happens to your team it’s bad luck, when it happens to the Mets it’s bad management. Get a grip.
By McFann O
November 6, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this
OK…I’ll say it…the Reaper was kinda deserving of the Gold Glove. Only 2 errors…328 putouts…7 assists. But I say Hunter Pence shoulda gotten one. Check these numbers out: 1 error, 340 putouts, 4 DP (The Reaper turned 2), and he was tied for the league-lead with 16 assists. Pence had a .997 FP to the Reaper’s .994.
Not saying the Reapers didn’t deserve one, just saying Hunter Pence did. Not to mention the Astros made 16 fewer errors than any other Major League team, according to ESPN.
By AuburnBrave
November 6, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this
DOB,
Here’s where some discrepency on the Ken Rosenthal article my be coming from.
On MLBTradeRumors.com the headline states that Ken says the Cubs are now the frontrunner, then links to his blog where he states they ‘might” have passed the Braves.
Hopefully we can still pull this off, I know I am going to be extremely disappointed if it doesn’t happen, but maybe not surprised. I mean these days, Auburn, the election, this past Braves season… whats one more disappointment?
By Shaun
November 6, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this
Royals said if they can’t get a Grinke extension they might look to trade him. Put an offer in of Francoeur, Jo Jo, Gorkys and Medlen.
If that’s true, I would think the Royals would want more; possibly something like a package built around a prospect or young player with superstar potential (one of the top two or three players in the game at his position in his prime). I think it’s safe to assume Francoeur, while he very well could become a good player, will never be a superstar.
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this
If you want to conjure a crazy image, read the story (on our current ajc.com “most popular stories” top five) about the woman who ran a mile with a rabid fox attached to her arm, biting her. Unbelievable.
By mbatl
November 6, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this
Don’t know if all saw DOB’s article on the Braves’ page (I know I sometimes forget to read the “news” and skip straight to the blog), but anyway, from that article:
The Braves are known to have expressed interest in Cubs free-agent pitcher Ryan Dempster. Other possibilities are Derek Lowe and A.J. Burnett, but each could command a salary higher than the Braves are willing to pay.
Sounds like Dempster is the top target among the high-end F/A pitchers (which is okay with me). Of course, if the Cubs can’t land Peavy, they’ll probably make Dempster an offer he can’t refuse.
By flange1
November 6, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this
Shaun,
Let me expand on Dunn,
In 2008, the Braves were not a good team against LH pitching, but they were worse after Tex left. With Frenchy stinking it up, they had NO RH power except for Chipper and the only RH hitter of note was Escobar.
IF Frenchy does not rebound and IF Escobar is traded, we still need RH power.
Dunn is LH.
As you say, Dunn is a good power hitter and he does take his walks. He is a below average OF and a below average base runner.
He is a decent player and if Frenchy was not a question mark as a RH power hitter, would be a nice addition.
But I don’t see it as a wise move to have your LF, CF, 2B, 1B and C all be LH. Sorry, you can argue with me all you want with what ever split info you can come up with, it is just not a wise way to set up a team.
By bryan
November 6, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this
Not to mention Q-Tip was on the 2nd to last REM CD - note that the whole album Around the Sun was ill advised - except for that song.
By Anders
November 6, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this
DOB
Why would Peavy accept a trade to Chicago but not NY? I get the Atlanta, Houston and even to some degree the St. Louis part but Chicago and not NY?
Can’t be a pressure thing - I mean who has more pressure than the Cubs? (Obama aside). Style of living is basically the same. Just wondering.
As you said yesterday the Yanks would absolutely up the ante on his contract and with his elbow history who wouldn’t want to lock that in now?
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this
AuburnBrave, thanks for the explanation. Yes, that does often happen, a headline can take things a bit beyond what was actually written by the writer (we don’t do the headlines; well, I write my headlines on this blog, but that’s not the case with most stuff you read online or in print.)
By LT-A blogger
November 6, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
I’m hoping (bit time) the Escobar + upper pitching prospects for Peavy doesn’t happen. If I thought the Braves were just 1-2 players away from being a WS contender, I’d do it. From what I’ve seen, they aren’t. It seems like more of plugging one whole and opening another. This all smacks of giving BC one last shot at riding off into the sunset on a white horse.
From my perspective, the biggest hole on this team last season was the OF. G Blanco and J Anderson are good bench players, but no way they are everyday players. They gotta keep Schafer and give him a shot.
Otherwise, they’re banking that Franceour will completely rebound. If he doesn’t and you have G Blanco or J Anderson in CF, I don’t see Peavy or Ludwick making any difference (sans Escobar or KJ).
I say keep the young top pitching prospects and go out and sign some lesser FA pitching and tell JJ he’s going to be the man at the top of the rotation. Move KJ back to LF and let Prado play 2nd. Put Schafer in CF and let the dude play. Roll those dice- not Escobar + 2-3 solid prospect for one guy.
Albeit an Ace. An Ace whose splits on home/road are not that great and never pitched 1 complete game the year he won a Cy young. I know complete games may be over-rated, but in my book you’re not a true Ace unless you can do it for 9 innings- Peavy can’t.
Peace
By McFann O
November 6, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this
Oh, and it’s nice to see Yadier win, but I still say uh…Jason Kendall shoulda won. He led the freakin’ Major Leagues in innings played at catcher…He caught 41 outta 96 guys stealing—a robust 43%! 43%? Are you freakin’ kidding me? How could he not win one?
Yes, Yadier caught 35%…but he only had 52 guys run off him (he was 18 for 52. Mind you all these stats I’m giving you include pick-offs by the pitcher because the websites don’t separate the two).
Hey, no offense to Yadi…I have nuthin against him (and I really like his name…good catcher name). But IMHO Kendall shoulda won. 96 guys ran on him…but that’s nothing compared to the ONE-HUNDRED TWENTY GUYS THAT RAN ON OUR CATCHER!! 120??? And 93…Whoops…gotta go…
By GermanBravesFan
November 6, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this
Unreal story about the fox and the jogger! not sure whether to laugh or feel bad, but I guess it all turned out alright, so I laughed!!
By N8
November 6, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this
mbatl
“Of course, if the Cubs can’t land Peavy, they’ll probably make Dempster an offer he can’t refuse.”
Go read Rosenthal’s article on Foxsports.com (the one that the pizzing contest is circled around).
Ken (I’m not his buddy, so I don’t feel comfy calling him Kenny), states that the Cubs would like to acquire Peavy AND retain Dempster.
Where’s Ted Turner when you need him?
Imagine what they’ll do when (if) Mark Cuban buys them. He’ll make Steinbrenner look like a cheap skate the first few years he owns them, IMO.
By Lew
November 6, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this
Maybe it’s all these years here on the DOB/MIB/BBQ Blog listening to my Buddy, Negative Nathan (N8), but I’m going to take a shot at being less than positive myself.
Do some of you not realize the situations with Smoltz, Glavine, Hampton and Hudson? Really? Don’t you?
First of all, what part of Smoltzie and Glavine saying they do not know now and may not know whether or not they will be ABLE to pitch again until December or later? What part of Smoltz saying that he would likely go back to the pen IF he were able to come back is incomprehensible?
What part of Hudson not coming back until LATE August do y’all not understand? What part of the interminable discussion we have had continually over the past three years about the recovery time for starting pitchers from TJ surgery do y’all not understand? Y’all do realize that the recovery time is often 1 1/2 years, which would make him available in 2010 and not after the All Star Break?
What part of the fact that Mike Hampton will field other offers from other teams do y’all not understand? What part of Hampton is not going to be had for $1 mil a year do y’all not understand? What part of Hampton possibly making between $4 and 8 mil (and maybe in a multi year deal) do y’all not understand?
Another conception that also puzzles the hell out of me is re-acquiring Furcal. What part of him wanting a four year deal do y’all not understand? What part of him missing almost an entire year due to back problems (the gift that keeps on giving-ask Mark Kotsay) do y’all not understand? What part of watching his atrocious fielding during the playoffs do y’all not understand?
And finally-what part of Prado and Infante constituting the best bench we’ve had in years do you not undestand? What part of them not being considered starting material and more valuable as bench players do y’all not understand?
Misconceptions have always abounded here on the blog. It happens. Submitting unrealistic trade proposals (Need I mention Coco, Baldelli, and Carl Crawford and Ryan Freel to name a few) is a major past time of MIB Bloggers. We know that. But Good God Almighty people, stop and think for just a second. Use logic (I know y’all can do it if you try). Use common sense (I know y’all could do it too, if you tried real hard). Listen to what the experts (Wren and other Braves Brass) tell you (they might give you insight into their thought process). Listen to DOB (he has the ear of several of the aforementioned experts). If you do that then maybe, just maybe, you’ll put away some of the ridiculous notions that are abounding on a daily basis and frolicking through the AJC advertisements here in cyberspace.
Hey, this negative thing may have some potential. I feel almost empowered. Move over Nathan. I may be coming home to the Dark Side.
By Shaun
November 6, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this
I don’t see it as a wise move to have your LF, CF, 2B, 1B and C all be LH. Sorry, you can argue with me all you want with what ever split info you can come up with, it is just not a wise way to set up a team.
flange1, how do we know it is “just not a wise way to set up a team”? Seems to me that would depend on the individual hitters, the home park and maybe other factors I’m not even thinking of. Seems like a rather hasty generalization without even looking into the facts. Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong.
Look at a team like the Red Sox. They discovered in 2002 or 2003 that they fair better with more left-handed hitters in the lineup and have been lefty-heavy ever since. And they have finished in the top three in their league in runs every year since except one.
By N8
November 6, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this
LT-A blogger
For the most part I agree with your post. Some of the details I differ on, but the premise is a good one.
As for Peavy and the lack of complete games? I might give you a token nod on that one (interesting fact as it is), but when you’ve got the all-time saves leader in the bullpen, you save those prescious innings for your ace.
By your definition and description, does that mean that Glavine didn’t pitch a gem in Game 6 of the 95 WS, because Wohlers came in for the 9th? You ask 100 people that question and about 10 people are gonna say that he pitched a masterful game. The other 90 will be laughing so hard at the silliness of the question, they won’t be able to answer.
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this
Anders, you actually said the “style of living” is basically the same in Chicago and NYC? Uh, have you been to Chicago? They’re not comparable cities. Very different places, both spectacular in their own ways.
By Jersey Gil
November 6, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this
My Opinion: Now that the Yankee is in the mix (NY Daily News) offer in the package Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy, Matsui, Austin Jackson, Melky Cabrera (Not make no sense , because last year they don’t want to include Hughes in the mix with Johan) is my truly opinion that i prefere to see the Bravos going to the agony for the next two year to improve this team with the so calling “Prospect” and wait until those “Prospect” Mature…..DO NOT MAKE ANY TRADE Just Sign a Outfielder with Power and going with this Rotation this year….JJ,Campillo, Morton,Hampton,Hanson. It Just My Opinion….See What Happen with the Ray this year…their Prospect Mature and now have a Good Group of young Players.
By THB
November 6, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this
Efrim-I agree. Schafer and Hanson are two guys I don’t want to trade because they’re both going to be starting next year, and sooner rather than later. I like that we’re taking this in the direction of Morton, Medlen, Locke, and an outfielder though. Although, Locke is considered to have a very, very high ceiling as well. We do have Rohrbough though with an even higher ceiling and already at high-A. I would hope that maybe we could send Gorkys in place of Schafer and add in a B.Jones type player or even Lillibridge.
If we trade Morton, Medlen, Locke, Gorkys, and B.Jones, I’d say that’s a good deal for us.
We’re left with a rotation anchored by Peavy, Hanson and Schafer waiting to step in, the infield intact, and the need for a #2 pitcher and a power hitting outfielder.
If we keep Escobar, KJ could possibly be expendable. If we went after Ankiel instead of Ludwick, could we possibly get a prospect in return? I’d be all for an Ankiel/Jaime Garcia trade. Garcia is a 22 year old lefty starter who has a very high K rate and exceptionally high ground ball rate, he was called up for bullpen help at the end of last year. I think that would be a great trade.
By GermanBravesFan
November 6, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this
Amen, Brother Lew…. ;-)
By Anders
November 6, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this
DOB
If you want to conjure a crazy image, read the story (on our current ajc.com “most popular stories” top five) about the woman who ran a mile with a rabid fox attached to her arm, biting her. Unbelievable.
Is this not how every GM feels while negotiating with Boras?
By DAP
November 6, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this
anders the style of living is the same in chitown and NY? wow. ive never lived either place, but that surprises me. i always thought of chicago of being much more blue collar mid-west style than big city that never sleeps hussle bussle new york city.
maybe peavy has the same misconception as me. or maybe its not a misconception.
By Anders
November 6, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this
10:33 poster
Who are you and what have you done with Lew?
By Lew
November 6, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this
Ander-Dude, I know I take every available opportunity to give the Mets and their Fans grief (y’all deserve it), but the fact is that the Mets should have won at least one World Series and been in the playoffs the other two years. They came away with one lousy little Division flag to put up on their new, barren stadium walls (and likely to remain barren with Omar as GM). A semi decent GM would have found the pieces needed to carry them all the way those three years.
However, reliance on ancient players and the failure to acquire the necessary piece to carry them over the threshhold negated the success they SHOULD have almost certainly had. If not the fault of the GM, whose job it is to get these paragons of difference making, then whose fault is it? Sorry Dude, you can’t lay this one on the Braves.
If you’re really happy with ONE Division Title and a couple of really p!$$ poor choke outs, then there’s likely no hope for you. I just don’t want to hear about the Braves string of futility in the post season ever again from the mouth of a Mets’ fan. At least WE made it to the post season. The Mets? Not really. You’ve got to stop judging the success of the Mets by where they came in relative to the Braves. That is not the criterion that MLB uses-just Mets’ fans.
By Jersey Gil
November 6, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this
If I’m Mr. Wren i signed Pat Burrell and that it for the Season, going with this lineup: Anderson CF, Escobar SS, Chipper 3b, Mac C, Burrell LF(Seven Inning, use Blanco 8,9) Johnson 2b, Frenchy RF, Koth 1b. as you see Lefty, wrighty lineup.
By N8
November 6, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this
Lew
Well said. I do believe you might need to mail your self a portrait.
The cat is officially out of the bag….. I didn’t kill your father…. I am your father.
Welcome to the darkside. Where the music of choice is played by John Cafferty and his band of brown beavers.
PS: For all bloggers out there, imagine Lew giving that rant using Denis Leary’s demeanor. It hightens the “reading” and imagination of the experience. I initially tried to envision Steven Wright….but that didn’t seem to have the “impact” I was looking for. :-)
By RC
November 6, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this
Shaun,
flange1 has a point about balance in the lineup. I agree it depends on the individual hitters, but most LH hitters fare better against RH pitchers than LH pitchers. Your point about the Red Sox doesn’t hold water since Manny and Youkilis are both right handed, and 2 of the top 3 hitters on their team. The key to balance is that in the 6th, 7th, or 8th innings of a game you don’t want a team to be able to just go to a lefty specialist when your 3/4/5 hitters come up, eliminating any threat your team may have had at scoring. I know that each player is a special case, but statstically, balance in the lineup helps a ballclub.
By K.Street
November 6, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this
David O’Brien,
I would love to see Jermaine Dye back in a Braves uniform, he was an amazing player and still is. If the Peavy deal goes through that would leave spots to fill at SS, would we just promote Lillibridge to SS? Getting the second pitcher through free agency, that would leave any more money for SS so it would have to be him right? Besides that, who are the Braves looking to play in center, Josh Anderson?
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this
Anders: Now that made me smile. Good one.
By N8
November 6, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this
Shaun
I think we finally have a point we see eye to eye on.
I’ve NEVER been a big guy that takes to much stock in the right/lefty thing, if the guy is a good hitter.
If there are guys that have clear cut gaps in the righty/lefty splits, then fine. The spells platoon.
But give me a lineup of good hitters, with good patience and a good approach, vs. a lineup that goes righty-lefty-righty-lefty, etc….
While our middle of the order in the mid-90’s was VERY left-handed heavy (which came back to haunt us in the post-season a bit), when McGriff, Justice and Klesko were in the heart of the order (along with all of Chipper’s power being from the left side back then), it surely didn’t have much issue in game 1-162 in scoring runs, did it?
Now having a RH bat to break up the lineup for a post-season roster, might not be a bad idea. But….
By Shaun
November 6, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this
RC, balance probably helps, all things being equal. But having Adam Dunn would probably be more advantageous than having Blanco and Diaz out there purely from a baseball standpoint (and ignoring salary and other contract considerations).
By falcons don't need d hall
November 6, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this
To everyone debating trading/not trading Escobar:
If the Braves trade Yunel, simply resign Renteria. The guy is as clutch as Chipper.
With Peavy acquired, we can use the CC money elsewhere…and to the guy who said Adam Dunn is a terrible hitter: how many Ks did Ryan Howard have last year?
By Lew
November 6, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
Dad!!!!!
By KC
November 6, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this
Lew: “What part of Smoltz saying that he would likely go back to the pen”
First of all, good morning!
When did Smoltz say this? I must have missed it.
By KC
November 6, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this
DOB: What’s the hold up?!
Why haven’t you called Peavy for the Braves? I understand you don’t want to call it and then have to pull it back, but don’t hold out on us man! I mean… this thing’s all but done, right?
=)
By Lew
November 6, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this
Anders-Lew is being held in a containment field by Eddie and The Cruisers. I am Joe The Artist-and I have the scars to prove it.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this
I just want to make sure everyone knows where I stand on this, even though it doesn’t matter:
Vote YES on Proposition Peavy. Vote NO on Proposition Adam Dunn, regardless of the cost. This is not the AL, so defense does matter, and he is just plain not a particularly good contact hitter.
By MikeC
November 6, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this
I would not give up Escobar period. He may have a little bit of an attitude, but I think he’ll settle down. As for talent, the only thing lacking is speed. I believe he’ll hit 15-20 homers a year and bat .300. His range, hands and arm are the equal of any big league shortstop. And if you trade him, who plays short? Lillibridge has the glove but hasn’t proven he can hit above double-A. Prado doesn’t have the range and Infante is best suited for a utility role. And as a Gamecock fan, I can’t abide the thought of rooting for the vastly overrated, goofy looking Khalil Greene. The doofus doesn’t even know how to wear his hat or uniform pants correctly, not to mention that scarecrow haircut he sports. I’d give up Kelly instead. He doesn’t have the instincts for second (or any other defensive position) and his bat is too streaky. Prado would be a solid replacement at second.
By McFann O
November 6, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this
OK, sorry…it was suddenly my turn for piano lessons. Not like I was saying anything “important”…kinda went off on a tangent back there.
Anders @ 10:46—
LOL!
Neight Lew Well said. I do believe you might need to mail your self a portrait.
Haha! Good stuff.
OK, so Gold Gloves for the AL are announced today at 4—though I heard they leaked out somewhere…don’t know if that true. Well, why don’t they tell when the Silver Sluggers are gonna be announced??
By Fred
November 6, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this
Anders, I have lived in NYC and have visited Chicago at least 10 times. I agree with DOB, those cities are very different. I wonder if Peavy, having homes in the warm climates of California and Alabama, would accept a trade to a cold weather city (especially Chicago). On the other side of the coin, a trade to NY would mean playing in a new stadium in front of sold-out crowds.
By McFann O
November 6, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this
Lew @ 11:07—
OK…That was funny!
By MizzouBravesFan
November 6, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this
From Olney this morning…
So at some point, the Braves and Padres may well strike a deal built around shortstop Yunel Escobar, center fielder Jordan Schaefer, pitcher Charlie Morton, and one more pitching prospect. The Padres are known to have interest in left-hander Jeff Locke, a 20-year-old who pitched in Single-A last season.
Interesting.
By Lew
November 6, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this
KC-Good Morning. Can’t give you an exact date, but it has been widely reported here and discussed quite a bit. You’ve just been AWOL, Dude.
Stop and think for a minute. The Bearded Icon will be 42 years old, recovering from what Dr. Andrews described as one of the most severely injured arms he’d ever seen. He has now had five surgeries to repair various pieces of said arm. If he IS able to come back, do you seriously see him pitching 6 or 7 innings every five days? Or, more likely, do you see him pitching an inning at a time a couple times a week?
By Raddad
November 6, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this
DOB
Would it be realistic to think the braves would not get into a bidding war for burnett and lowe and maybe focus on say Jon Garland, especially if the Angels go after C.C.
By Braveheart
November 6, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this
Why does Escobar’s attitude really matter? Clubhouse culture is nice but overrated. Don’t delude yourselves into believing that the Braves won because of their clubhouse culture. They won because they had the best 25 men in the National League. Once it becomes about something more than fielding the 25 best men……….. then you had better believe they’re gonna start losing more than you’d like. Vanderbilt runs a nice, clean football team with fine, young distinguished gentlemen but Vanderbilt doesn’t go to bowl games. That’s fine for Vanderbilt. No one is leaving the Braves with a Vanderbilt level education however. Winning games should actually matter for the Braves
Yunel Escobar is a hardnosed cutthroat guy like drivers used to be back in the day in NASCAR. The rest of these boys on this team are like today’s current NASCAR stars …… they bore folks to tears with their pretty, prissy ways….. it’s just a bland brand of baseball. ….. Chipper has a brain, Smoltz is a lion, McCann has heart, Hudson has grit, Yunel has soul….. the rest of them are nothing. They have no identity. Frenchy used to be the wild stallion but they broke his arse long ago….. peavy may very well be the bulldog we need but is it worth our soul?
By RC
November 6, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this
Shaun,
I agree with that statement entirely. My arguement not that we shouldn’t get Dunn, but if the choice was Dunn vs. Ludwick, I’m not sure which I’d prefer based on the current lineup.
By Anders
November 6, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this
DOB
I’ve actually only been to Chicago twice and didn’t see a lot of it. I was down in the North Michigan St. area across from Grant Park which was a lot like NYC in terms of high rises etc. I did get to Wrigley which was special.That area is much like Queens NY.
What I meant was that they’re both large major cities, with lot’s of people, very urban etc. I wasn’t speaking from a cultural or demographic perspective. But I hear what your saying and I certainly don’t have a vantage point to compare the two. That’s why I asked.
By Lew
November 6, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this
Braveheart-Your 11:24 reminds me of the song by The Cult from the Electric CD-King Contrary Man. “No, I said No, You can’t take my soul” The singer changes his mind when more is offered.
By LT-A blogger
November 6, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this
Thanks N8,
I prefaced the complete game thing by acknowledging that it was most likely over-rated. I’m just really not big on the Peavy for all these players deal- probably just stretching for more reasons not to like him. Escobar is one of best players with a lot of potential.
I’m hearing Peavy for Escobar and Schafer plus Morton and think you gotta be kidding me.
I think the moon was lost in 2009 when Huddy lost his elbow. Now we’re gonna trade all these dudes to plug that hole and wer’re gonna be better? If Franceour doesn’t recover and CF is still Blanco/Anderson, it won’t matter who is in left or at the top of the rotation.
Give me a break.
By mbatl
November 6, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this
Bravheart, wow… Vandy football, NASCAR, the Wizard of Oz, a wild stallion, and a bulldog — all in one post!
Anyway, I only see Escobar’s “attitude” as a problem to the extent it affects his play on the field… lack of concentration at SS or on the basepaths, because he’s mad or frustrated, alienating umpires, that kind of thing. And I’m not saying that’s a huge problem, but if attitude is a problem at all, that’s where it counts.
By Tim
November 6, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
DOB
If you’re a big fan of escobar like me, would it be possible for the Padres to accept Brent and Kelly instead of escobar. I know Brent doesn’t have much value, but you would think the two of them together would have atleast the equivalent value of Yunel.
But maybe I’m wrong, just wondering if that scenario is at all possible?
By N8
November 6, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this
Lew
You’re on a roll dude. We get a Red Rider and a King Contrary Man reference in the same week? Along with your negative rant?
Well played. The Cult “Electric” album is also in the Top 5 rock albums of the 80’s, IMO. Not really in consideration for Top 10 all-time (like GnR’s “Appettite”), but certainly The Cult’s best work.
*”Poor man, sad man, you should be glad man….. stand up for your rights….PEACE!”
Sorry couldn’t resist. Had an old bass player that used to sing Peace Dog with us, and it was a hoot.
Speaking of the Cult, have you seen Ian Astbury lately? Wow. That dude is in rough shape. Not “Steven Adler” rough, but rough none the less. Yikes.
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this
“Chipper has a brain, Smoltz is a lion, McCann has heart, Hudson has grit, Yunel has soul” -Braveheart
The thing is, Chipper, Smoltz, MacCann, and Hudson have those qualities without being obnoxious or unclassy. Now, I’m NOT saying I’m in the anti-Yunel attitude crowd, I’m just saying that if your argument is that a certain amount of shadiness or contempt must be expected from a player with energy and fire… then your own list of non-Yunel Braves players is against you.
By Lew
November 6, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this
I’ve got to say I agree with LT. I’d go a different route than Peavy if THAT is what we would have to give up. Still think we need to sign either Lowe or Dempster and trade a lesser package to the White Sox for Javier Vasquez and Nick Swisher.
Losing Hudson for this season made the road a whole lot tougher to travel to the post season. Let’s just be realistic and be aware that a rotation in 2010 of Hudson, Lowe, Jurrjens, Vasquez and Hanson/ Morton, with Jorge Campillo as long relief would be a winner.
By Dadgum
November 6, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this
Should the Braves lose Escobar in a trade then you can be pretty certain that they have a replacement in place via free agency or another trade. The Braves have NOBODY in their system anywhere that you would go to battle with over a 162+ game season. Infante could be a stop-gap guy at SS but at this stage certainly not your main cog there. No way.
I have been reading the Greene kid may not be included by San Diego or the Braves aren’t interested which is good because since he left Clemson his stock has fallen.
The Braves won’t be able to afford Furcal which is unfortunate unless the Peavy trade doesn’t materialize. My guess is that the Braves will sign Renteria for 1 year with a 2nd year option. This will give them the experience needed up the middle.
Also I have mentioned it before but I feel the Braves will be settling in with Prado at 2nd and will deal Kelly Johnson if they feel he can’t be an answer in the outfield. Hey, just a layman’s opinion, obviously not an insider, but Prado is a better 2nd baseman and will get you the batting average necessary from that position not to mention some dingers and gappers. I’m taking Prado over Johnson at 2nd base everday, everytime and I think the Braves will trade him.
Rock on……bag of chips $5, cup of coffee $5, gorgeous SOCAL women-pricele$$. Hey hey I wanna be a rockstar!
By MJ
November 6, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this
No way, no how in any way shape or form should Tommy Hanson be included in any deal! He is going to be so good!
I can deal w/ trading Escobar even though he is going to be a really good player. But you have to think replacing a starting SS is easier to replace than a true #1 pitcher.
The Braves have to get Peavy but they also cannot give away the whole cupboard either.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 6, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this
RE: Dunn,
I’m somewhat surprised you folks arguing about whether Dunn’s a solid pickup since he’s a lefty didn’t look up his splits.
In 2008, his OPS was 180 points higher vs. RH pitchers (.951 vs. .773). In 2006 they were roughly even but every other year he’s mashed against righties and been maybe average against lefties.
OTOH, Raul Ibanez’s career L/R splits are much closer, about 100 points apart. He’s a less-expensive, and yes, shorter-term option to Dunn if the Braves can’t land the RH hitter they’d like. You might be able to get Raul for 3/$37 (with the third year an option) while Dunn’s going to expect 4 or 5 years for at least $15MM per.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 6, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this
Lew,
What you said (11:49). I could handle giving up Escobar or Schafer but not both. Your rotation would lack a clear stopper but it would have three 1As or 2s. Lowe/JJ/Vasquez is a solid top of the rotation and if we’re lucky Hanson will emerge by the end of the season as another front-end guy.
By Buffalo NY Braves Fan
November 6, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this
RC,
If I had the choice I would go with Ludwick over Dunn. Better BA, better D, he can play all 3 OF positions, and he has almost the same power.
Just my opinion though.
As far as the Peavy talks go…..
Morton, Escobar, Locke should be enough to get Peavy. If not, throw in a guy like Flowers.
By ncscoots
November 6, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this
Escobar is dining. The possible replacements floated here, so far, are eating.
And there is nothing wrong with eating (Blauser, Lemke, Belliard, et al) if you’re dining at other positions. But, even in the years when Lopez, McGriff, Chipper, Klesko, Grissom, Dye and other offensive weapons were around, the Braves still struggled (and mostly failed) to score 800 runs. Because they were eating at some .240 clip elsewhere.
It’s a dangerous thought that the Braves, or just about any other club, can put together the massively strong pitching to overcome anemic offense. And there should be little confusion over the offensive potential of the current club (even with additions) and, say, the 96 and 97 squads.
If the Braves think they can upgrade at SS after trading Escobar for Peavy, fine. But they cannot afford do the latter and fail at the former. The Braves simply don’t have enough offensive depth to suffer any run-producing loss.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this
Ibanez is also 107 years old and overpriced.
By N8
November 6, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this
LT-A blogger
I hear you. But here’s the thing, and this is where I guess I have some good ol’ fashioned blind fait in Wren.
If the ONLY move he was gonna make, was to trade Escobar for Peavy and expect that to take us over the top, I’d agree with you 100 percent.
But he has stated that he wants two starting pitchers, and a new LF.
Now, one could argue that if getting those two pitchers and a LF costs us our middle infielders (which DOB has stated that Wren has stated we won’t be trading BOTH OF THEM), then it’s not worth it.
But I’m all for taking a step back to take a step forward.
Some people might argue that taking a “risk” on guys like Soriano or Gonzo wasn’t worth it with their injuries. I might agree a bit. But I also believe that the GM who sits on his hands in the off-season, is the same guy that watches other teams play in the playoffs.
I’m not saying make moves to make moves. But in any business you have to be willing to take some risk to have a chance at the reward. Unless you are the Rays GM this off-season. Then maybe you ride it out for a while. But when you’re the GM for a team that has missed the playoffs for three straight years, SOMETHING has to change.
The part that scares me, is if the Peavy thing drags out and Wren misses the boat on the other pieces he may want to make a move on. I doubt that will happen, but here’s the thing.
I think the trade front is the way to make things happen. There is zero guarantee that any free agents will want to come to Atlanta and join a losing team. If Wren trades for a guy, they have no choice.
Plus it’s two-fold with Peavy. Trading for Peavy just might be the move that makes some of the other free agents take a closer look at playing for the Braves.
If this Peavy deal falls through, I think Wren will ridiculously have to over-pay for somebody like Lowe to come to Atlanta. Whre if Peavy is already on board, Lowe might not take less money, but the playing field will be more level.
Like I said. Until Wren proves other-wise, I’ll believe that he’ll make some moves that will improve our chances without mortgaging the entire future. If he proves me wrong, he won’t be holding that job for too long, IMO.
By Supes
November 6, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this
Jake Peavy in a Braves Jersey. Make it happen Frank Wren! With the Phillies and the Mets in the division it’s not going to get any easier.
Need top tier starting pitching now! Not 2-3 years from now with the minor leaguers coming up!
Wren needs to be more aggressive and not wait around forever as the weeks go by and the Cubs and others can beat the Braves to the punch.
Worst case scenario, Wren tries to play chicken with the Pads, someone else gets Peavy (Cubs, Dodgers), Lowe goes back to the Sox, Dempster stays with the Cubs, Burnette gets to steal money and be injuried with the Yankees, CC Sabathia goes to the Dodgers or Yankees…and that leaves the Braves with Ben Sheets. That’s it for FA top tier guys.
So while there is a plus side in waiting (Mets not overpaying for Santana and calling the Twin’s bluffs early last year), there is the other side, where Frank Wren is going to be left holding his you know what and the Braves will once again have to rely on….
Hampton, Glavine and Smoltz…an unproven Rookie in TH, a junker baller journeyman in Capillo…and a bunch of scrubs.
Be careful what you wish for Braves. I see some that say “oh, you can’t trade Kelly, or you can’t trade Yunel”. Well just damn! You gotta give SOMETHING of value UP to the other team if you are getting an ace starter! Or you do you want the Pads to just give Jake Peavy to the Braves straight up for Chuck James?
Same with Ryan Ludwick for KJ etc.
A trade has to benefit both teams. Not just the Braves.
So if the Braves give up Yunel in a deal for Peavy or KJ in a deal for Ludwick, so be it. Fair is fair. At that point it’s going to be can they replace the middle infield for 2008 with what we have within the system and the bench.
By Roman Gal
November 6, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this
Efrim I have to agree with you about Schafer…and that package as a whole, really. It’s one thing to give up one of our starting 8 for next years team, but TWO?! No way!
What’s the point of getting Peavy if we have to sacrifice so much of our future to get him? I don’t mind giving up pitching to get him, plus maybe one offensive player, but TWO?!
That’s just not something I can get behind…
I just think that trading Schafer would be a huge mistake.
By cameron
November 6, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this
Buster Olney is reporting that since the Padres know they wont get Hanson, they will take Escobar as the centerpiece, they also really like Locke. So I say the Braves need to take that deal. I love escobar just as much as the rest of you but we NEED pitching, and Jake Peavy is top of the line. And I think if we can make the deal for Peavy then it will break things open and we can make other trades like for Ludwick.
By Anders
November 6, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this
Braveheart
Don’t delude yourselves into believing that the Braves won because of their clubhouse culture. They won because they had the best 25 men in the National League.
They won because they had three HOF pitchers at one time-period. They didn’t win more in the post season because they never had that lock down closer.
Glad to see you talking baseball again. Can we assume you got what you needed?
By N8
November 6, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this
Lew
Your 11:49 is EXACTLY how I feel, unless Wren can pry Peavy away for a McGriff/Melvin Nieves type of trade. Which is doubtful.
But there lies the problem. While you and I (along with some other bloggers), look forward to 2010 and the POSSIBILITY of a talented and VERY young rotation (with Hudson as the returning from injury veteran to lead the way), most Braves fans and Wren are NOT thinking that way.
After all, this might be Bobby’s last year, and Chipper deserves a winner, right?
Nothing against trying to win for Chipper or trying to give Bobby a “swan song”, but a GM’s job is to put the organization (and it’s future) ahead of any one player (even if it is Chipper), or the HOF manager, right?
That being said, if Peavy can be had on the cheap, he certainly will fit into that 2010 rotation (and beyond) just fine, won’t he?
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this
Raddad, I wrote a comment on first day of meetings (Monday) that I’ll repeat: Garland doesn’t do much for Braves. They’re not very enthusiastic about him.
By DAP
November 6, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this
bravesfaninrockies i bet we could get ibanez for 2 years $15mil.
i will mourn the loss of escobar if we have to trade him, but i dont think a package including escobar and some other peices we wont miss will be too much to trade. several decent SS are available. orlando caberra, renteria, felipe lopez to name a few. by the way, i was looking up stats…did anyone know felipe lopez hit 23 himers in 2005? how the heck did that happen?
dadgum Prado is a better 2nd baseman and will get you the batting average necessary from that position not to mention some dingers and gappers.
im not sure prado is a better 2nd baseman, and about the average, dingers and gappers…what do you expect johnson to do? i wouldnt hate having prado play 2nd everyday, but i dont think he is better than KJ.
By N8
November 6, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this
Supes
Good points in your 12:02 post.
The question really comes down to this:
Are the Braves better off with Peavy and Ludwick and some stop gap middle IF?
Or with a second tier Ace, along with the Diaz/Blanco platoon in LF, with KJ and Escobar up the middle?
I guess ultimately, it’s not what you or I think, but what Bobby and Wren think.
By Anders
November 6, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this
Marty
Ibanez is also 107 years old and overpriced.
Sounds like he’ll slide right into Alou’s slot in left.
By Lee in S GA
November 6, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this
Still think we need to sign either Lowe or Dempster and trade a lesser package to the White Sox for Javier Vasquez and Nick Swisher.
Lew
Pretty much agree with you on this one. I think in the long run this will help the Braves more. After keeping up with this Peavy talk for days now I have been one of the “don’t care one way or the other” bloggers on whether Peavy is acquired or not. I have actually been hoping someone else would deal for him. You are right, losing Hudson hurt so much until I just don’t see the Braves overcoming this to win the division in 2009. There are just too many “IFS” coming into play. Hope I am proven wrong in the end but I don’t see it.
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 12:23 PM | Link to this
Lew’s got it going this morning, folks. That “scars” line cracked my a$$ up.
Got an 11:55 a.m. (Pacific Time) flight out of Orange County. It’s been good out here, lot of juicy stuff and legit talks, not just unsubstantiated rumors.
Braves are going to make some moves, folks. No doubt. Significant moves. Just a matter of time.
By rammerjammer
November 6, 2008 12:24 PM | Link to this
This is ridiculous. “If Peavy can be had on the cheap.” Good grief. Yeah, sure, most any team will deal a mid-20s Cy Young winner cheaply. All you gotta do is insist on it! LOL
If all Peavy costs us is a good - not yet great - shortstop and three prospects, that is a STEAL for Atlanta.
I like Escobar a lot, but we need Peavy far more than we need Escobar.
By Anders
November 6, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this
DOB
Garland doesn’t do much for Braves. They’re not very enthusiastic about him.
Who hasn’t said that about the first girl you see when you walk into a bar only finding yourself doing shots with her 5 hours later when the rest are gone? I expect lots and lots of fun comments for this one - but I think you get my drift.
By Efrim
November 6, 2008 12:27 PM | Link to this
So the bounty is, or could be:
Yunel Escobar - Star Shortstop
Charlie Morton - Let’s call him a potential #3 starter. Even though some of you may think he is more or less than that
Jordan Shafer - Top 10 prospect. Probably #3 right behind Hanson and Heyward. He is also a top 50 prospect in the majors.
Jeff Locke - Another Braves Top 10 prospect. Potential #3 starter, although he has a LONG way to go.
By DAP
November 6, 2008 12:28 PM | Link to this
Renck also says the White Sox have contacted the Rockies about Willy Taveras.
ok, somebody needs to tell the white sox we have two willy ts that they can choose from. the sox have several peices that the braves could really use.
By MGL
November 6, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this
I don’t like the idea of trading either Escobar or KJ, we are too short of power as it is. If Escobar is traded to the Padres, I think that they have to go after Renteria or similar. Renteria has the same power profile as Escobar, so we lose some defense, but not much offense.
I know some of you are in love with Prado, but if you put Prado at second, you lose power. (and defense in my book).
If Prado is better than KJ, why are other teams not after him?
By N8
November 6, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this
To those of you that think I’m contradicting myself by stating I have zero problem with KJ and Escobar being dealt for Peavy and Ludwick, but am saying hold on to Hanson, Medlen, Schafer, Gorkys, Freeman, Heyward, etc…
Maybe I am. Why on earth would I be so willing to hold on to unproven minor league stars, yet let both of our middle infielders go?
For the most part, it’s because I still think that BOTH Escobar and KJ are still unproven to be consistently good over 6 months, day in and day out as well.
Add to that the are both in their mid-20’s. Not that that makes them old. But Peavy is only a year and half older than Escbar.
What gives? So Wren would be trading a 26 year old SS who MIGHT turn into one of the games best in the next few years, for a 27 year old pitcher who has ALREADY won a Cy Young and has proven to ALREADY be one of the best pitchers in the game?
As for KJ? Really?? People are freaking out about Wren possibly trading a 2B (who has as much shot at winning the GG anytime soon, as Steve Sax did early in his career), who has YET to put together a complete season.
Sure Ludwick is 30 years old, and only has one complete (un-injured) season. But dude hit 37 HR and had 113 RBI last year.
For the record, assuming Ludwick would play LF next year. Escobar, KJ and ALL of our LF’s used last year, combined for 28 HR and 199 RBI. Do the math. One player…..vs…..Three players.
Where I stand right now? Make the trade for Peavy using Escobar as the centerpiece with some other (not top notch) prospects thrown in. Small price to pay for a guy one year removed from winning the Cy Young. Provided the Braves medical staff is certain his elbow can hold up.
Make the trade for Ludwick using KJ as the centerpiece.
Sign one of the other second tier starting pitchers (Lowe, Burnett, Penny, Dempster).
Use the resources of the remaining money left over to make trades (or sign) some solid middle infielders. Using Prado, Infante and McCauley as bench players (or trade bait).
Cross fingers that Francoeur looks more like the young Eric Davis that he did two and three seasons ago, rather than Brad Kominsk, like he did last year.
Pray for health of Chipper and B-Mac.
Hope that Kotchman looks like the Kotchman that played for the Angels from April through July.
If Ludwick is for real, Kotchman does what he’s done, Chipper stays healthy for 130 games and B-Mac is B-Mac, that is 4 pretty solid guys in the everyday 8.
With the pitching upgrades, one could argue that the middle IF and CF options could be defense first kind of guys (as long as they aren’t Belliard’s with the bat).
Just don’t want the farm to be dumped for Peavy, two years removed from dumping it for Tex. Nothing more, nothing less.
By Braveheart
November 6, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this
he thing is, Chipper, Smoltz, MacCann, and Hudson have those qualities without being obnoxious or unclassy. Now, I’m NOT saying I’m in the anti-Yunel attitude crowd, I’m just saying that if your argument is that a certain amount of shadiness or contempt must be expected from a player with energy and fire… then your own list of non-Yunel Braves players is against you.
David Justice was a jerk who was so full of himself that he believed he would someday date the most gorgeous woman in the world and hit the game winning homer in the World Series. Not only did he hit that homer and date the most gorgeous woman in the world, he married her, cheated on her, treated her like dog doo, and divorced her. They said it would be better without him. The Braves haven’t won the World Series since they lost David Justice. The Yankees haven’t won a World Series since they lost David Justice. The Indians haven’t been back to the World Series since they lost David Justice.
By Supes
November 6, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this
N8
To answer your 12:13 reply…I think they are better off with Ludwick in LF, and Peavy on the mound.
I think KJ and Yunel will be good, maybe even above average 4 star type players eventually, but they don’t pitch.
You win with top tier pitching, or at least you give yourself the chance.
It’s proven every post season. You get a dominant starter, like a Cole Hamels to carry you, you get a pen with 3-4 shut down relievers, game over.
Now the other part of this, is the HR production/RBI production you get from a guy like Ryan Ludwick, hitting 5th in the lineup. (when Mac is playing)
I think Lillbridge at SS, Infante at 2B and Prado 2B (when Omar has to go over to 3B for Chipper those 30 games a year) is adequate defense.
Omar and Prado aren’t HR guys, but they are contact hitters who don’t go into extended slumps. Still unsure what kind of hitter Lillbridge will be, he’s the question mark.
I realize that giving up half your infield to get these trades complete isn’t something desireable, but it’s something the team can live with. It’s not a blow, like losing your catcher let’s say.
Braves have middle infielders coming in the minors as well.
I believe the pro’s outweight the con’s in this scenario, where the Braves may have to give up KJ, and Yunel in trades to get better in weaker positions (organization wise) and make a push for 2009 NL East title.
By JKP
November 6, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this
My opinion has always been do whatever it takes to land Peavy. Prospects are just that…prospects. Hanson may very well be the real deal, but Peavy already is. If I were GM (Thank goodness I’m not) I would be willing to give up Hanson if that was the only way. Looks like it’s not, though. Escobar is already a good player who will probably turn into a star player. But, again, if that’s what it takes…get the Ace starter. What’s the market looking like on Furcal? If Escobar is traded, that would solve the SS and leadoff problems. And, he’s probably the only one with a better infield arm than Escobar.
By cooper
November 6, 2008 12:36 PM | Link to this
Jersey Gil - your peavy and ace free rotation will assist the Braves in losing 85-90 games in 2009. :)
This team must acquire two TOR SP or plan to give season ticket holder refunds and run 50% off nights all year.
JJ is a 3/3A SP (max) and everyone else there is a 5.
Dunn is ok if he can be had for a reasonable deal and someone other than TP works with him on the SO issue.
I would prefer Bradley, Maggs or Dye in the OF over Dunn for various reasons but he is worlds better than a Diaz/Blanton platoon.
By Anders
November 6, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this
Efrim
Sounds like Towers has Hand after all!
By Raddad
November 6, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this
DOB
Sorry about That I am new with the blog and missed it.
By Raddad
November 6, 2008 12:42 PM | Link to this
I keep reading that the braves can get lowe or burnett I do not see the braves getting into a bidding war for them. So then who??
By richbrave
November 6, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this
DAVID O’BRIEN:
Good article. And O.K. I see your point. It is obvious BRAVES cannot go rudderless into the future without a serious #1 at the top of the rotation.
And as much as I like ESCOBAR, I can’t forget that brief exchange I had with him over the dugout at the “DIAMOND.” Somehow, I just feel the BRAVES would have an almost impossible task of keeping ESCOBAR from bolting to the top $$$$ markets when he’s firmly established in the bigs. BTW I can’t see SAN DIEGO having any more success with him than the BRAVES. He’s N.Y. bound eventually. I think he craves the lime-light-a lot, as much as the money.
Which is my long-winded and round-about mea culpa for holding out against giving up significant current and future stars for PEAVY. Financially, LIBERTY gets a great pitcher ON THE CHEAP. And the BRAVES go nowhere without him.
Liked this article DAVE. Very insightful. And as an aside, you get to enjoy the sunsets and beautiful waitress, while Mr. WREN gets to play golf and drink on the veranda with knots in the pit of his stomach while constantly sparring and negotiating for the organization all the while.
Yeah, yeah, he gets champagne and cavier while you get burgers and fries. Well, what the hell’s wrong with that.? Enjoy DAVE. It’s a great life. Thanks for all your good work.
By Bobby's Cox
November 6, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this
DOB
Mario Chalmers is ridiculously good. Too bad the Heat are fiddling around with other guards, i.e. Shaun Livingston, Marcus Banks, and Chris Quinn.
The decision is clear in my mind…the Heat need to trade one of their guards to make Chalmers the man there in Miami. I’m not a Heat fan by any means, but with Chalmers, Wade, and Beasley, that team is going to be damn good in the future.
By Lew
November 6, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this
Nathan-Electric was definitely my favorite Cult album, though I also like Sonic Temple a good bit and Love was pretty damned good as well. Their new on is pretty decent, too-not as heavy as Beyond Good and Evil from 02-but much more like the old stuff.
You’re right about Ian Astbury. He has always been prone towards “rough shape”, but his difficulties seem to stem from alcohol as opposed to it and the God Knows What Adler partook of on a regular basis. Kind of a shame, though. When Astbury is on top of his game, he and Billy Duffy are a great duo and quite creative. Duffy rarely gets his Props as a guitarist, either.
Too bad I gave my tickets for the Sonic Temple Tour to this British Babe who was freaked over them. I guess I’m just a soft touch for a gorgeous woman-even if she’s just a friend.
By N8
November 6, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this
Supes
Based on my 12:33 and you 12:34 post, we’re thinkng along the same lines.
Like I said though, it doesn’t matter what you, Lew, DOB, Bravheart, Coach or I think….
What does Wren think?
By Marty
November 6, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this
Anders - Sounds like he’ll slide right into Alou’s slot in left. That’s good stuff.
N8 - What gives? So Wren would be trading a 26 year old SS who MIGHT turn into one of the games best in the next few years, for a 27 year old pitcher who has ALREADY won a Cy Young and has proven to ALREADY be one of the best pitchers in the game? rammerjammer also made a similar comment. This is what I’ve been saying for the better part of three days, and I couldn’t agree more.
By Raddad
November 6, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this
Any news on Antony Lerew and his status for a spot in the rotation??
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this
Efrim, if that is indeed the bounty, I hope we do it. But I just barely hope we do it. Giving up a lot highlight reel between Esco & Shafer.
If we pull that particular trigger and Peavy’s elbow blows up, though, I swear I’m just going to buy a Playstation, build my own Braves, and play them 162 times a year…. maybe catch real baseball in the newspaper once in a while. “Oh look… two Padres in the Allstar game….”
By siskel
November 6, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this
DOB
Have you heard anything about the Braves being involved with the White Sox for Vasquez? Really good stuff and could benefit moving to the NL and would cost significantly less than Peavy, or any chance we could land both? Also one other thought with Gary Sheffeild’s success in Atlanta is there any chance the Bravos show interest in Milton Bradley? I think he would be a very good pickup and wouldn’t cost our minor league system.
By LT-A blogger
November 6, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this
N8,
I agree with that rational and am probably looking at the possible Peavy move through a microscope. Maybe I’m missing the forest from the trees, but I just don’t see the team as a whole better from the rumors floating around.
I don’t believe this team is in better position by obtaining a #1 starter by giving up a potential all star SS, their supposed CF of the future, plus some really good looking young pitchers. You definitely have more faith in Wren than I do- keep that glass half full!
By N8
November 6, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this
Raddad
“I keep reading that the braves can get lowe or burnett I do not see the braves getting into a bidding war for them. So then who??”
Who knows how Wren will handle free agency (especially with 40 million at his disposal), compared to JS, who avoided bidding wars at all cost?
But I’m of the belief that if Wren loses out on the Peavy sweepstakes, he might be forced into a bidding war for one of those guys. As I’ve said before, it might be a better path for us, anyhow.
After all, it’s just money….and it’s NOT my money. LOL!
Lew
Would you believe that I saw The Cult opening up for Metallica, here in Bismarck on the And Justice For All tour (Sonic Temple was out then…I think), to a crowd of about 1200 people?
Back in the old general admission (stand on the floor) days, I remember showing up about a half hour before the lights went out, and literally walking up to about the 3rd row of the standing crowd.
I’m guessing there would be a “few” more people if Metallica showed up here today, huh?
By Efrim
November 6, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this
Anders
He gets those four players, and he did a good job. Trading Peavy sucks if you’re a Pads fan, but that might be the best package they could hope for. A great SS to control for the next four seasons. Two young pitchers with upside and a CF prospect who you control for the next six seasons.
It’s a lot.
By Bobby's Cox
November 6, 2008 12:57 PM | Link to this
I’m sure this was posted here before, but if not:
Peavy’s career postseason stats:
2 GS, 0-2, 9.2 IP, 9 H, 4 BB, 5 K, 13 ER, 12.1. ERA.
Peavy at Turner Field:
2 GS, 0-2. 12.1 IP, 8 H, 5, BB, 15 K, 6 ER, 4.38 ERA
Peavy career at Home (Petco):
2.77 ERA, 2.19 BAA, 3.68 K/BB
Peavy career on the Road:
3.80 ERA, 2.48 BAA, 2.54 K/BB
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this
“David Justice was a jerk who was so full of himself that he believed he would someday date the most gorgeous woman in the world and hit the game winning homer in the World Series.” -Braveheart
You’re right. And the evidence is squarely with the nice guys finishing last in this sport. The most obnoxious players somehow rise to the top. Manny, Barry, the list is long and hits a lot of historical greats.
But everybody draws their how-nasty-is-too-nasty line in a different spot. I’m only about two spots South of Vanderbilt. But I respect, and see the truth of, your side. Truth be told, fans like me might be better off watching college baseball.
By cooper
November 6, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this
Correction Diaz/Blanco platoon.
:)
By Lew
November 6, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this
Well My Fellow Cartoon Characters, it’s been fun discussing these Merrie Melodies and Looney Tunes with y’all. However, my wife has been on a business trip for two weeks and I have to go get her at the airport. Maybe I’ll be back to blog-then again, maybe not. Later.
By N8
November 6, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this
LT-A Blogger
“You definitely have more faith in Wren than I do- keep that glass half full!”
You might very well be the first person EVER on this blog to use the phrase “glass half full”, when referring about one of my views.
Love it!
Time for everybody to order their Minnesota Vikings Super Bowl Champion shirts apparently, because hell has doth froze over!
Lew goes all negative and I’m considered a glass half full kinf of guy.
Gotta love this blog, there’s a new twist around every post, huh?
By Bobby's Cox
November 6, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this
I find it odd that people are high on 30 year old Ludwick who had one heck of a year, but not Nelson Cruz who is 3 years younger and had one hell of a year. Seems like the same player to me.
I’d take them both though and plaud Wren for getting St. Louis interested for Kelly Johnson for Ludwick.
If Wren can’t get Peavy without giving up Yunel, Schafer, Hanson, or Heyward, I’d move on and get Ludwick for KJ, or Cruz for much less.
I can picture KJ in Cards uni, and St. Louis loving him as much as the fanatics in Atlanta do. St. Louis is high on defense though, so maybe not.
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 6, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this
Am I the only Brent Lillibridge fan in the room?
Don’t get me wrong…Escobar is a phenomenal talent and a stud offensively and defensively, but doesn’t anyone want to see what the Lil’ Bridge can do with some extended playing time in the field and at the plate?
Most likely he will not be as good as Escobar, but who is to say he won’t come close?
It seems most think that moving Escobar means we will have to play with only 8 guys in the field…I for one am excited about seeing Lillibridge get a chance.
By THB
November 6, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this
Bobby’s Cox-There’s a huge difference between Nelson Cruz and Ryan Ludwick, cmon man. Ludwick hit 37 HR in the major leagues in 2008, Nelson Cruz played in a hitter’s park in AAA. I agree that he’s a good low risk, high reward player but he hasn’t done anything like Ludwick has yet.
By randyh
November 6, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this
hate to give up escobar, rather give up johnson, like someone said earlier. DONT GIVE UP TY FLOWERS YET…he may hit a ton of homers for the braves, when you find a position for him. hold onto shafer, hernandez, and hanson.
By DAP
November 6, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this
bubdylan And the evidence is squarely with the nice guys finishing last in this sport.
no it isnt.
By Jersey Gil
November 6, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this
Cooper That why i said “Agony” & pain the Next Couple Year, until Ours Prospect Mature. Hanson, Locke,Morton, and then Heyward, Gorky, & Freeman are ready. We Have a good Infield with Esco,Johnson,Prado & Koth. I know we need pitching this Year, but i don’t want the Organization give away ours minor league Prospect. Remenber in the begining of 1990’s we was the worst team in the west, until ours Prospect start coming in bunch (Chipper,Javy,Avery,Glavine, Dye etc), then ours minor league system keep us for 14 strait year as a contender with one World Series Champ & 14 Division winner. Think about it.
By Midnight Express99
November 6, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this
We cannot trade Yunel and Schafer. That would be a bad deal. Schafer’s name should not be mentioned at all. Yunel Escobar is already a BIG prize.
By skull
November 6, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this
LEW
Your 10:33 was dead on, high five. Long time reader, hardly ever post. Have been reading everything I can find on Braves, MLB & rumors since the season ended.
Here’s what I’ve noticed from all of that online time:
If not Peavy, then who?
Lowe, Dempster & Burnett all have indicated teams they would like to take offers from, NOT one of them listed the Braves as a team they want to pitch for. So, Braves then will have to grossly overpay to get one of them.
Resign Hampton before even considering Garland (good to hear Braves not interested)
Furcal? Check out ALL of the things his agent has said. His agent is talking 4 years, 50-60M.
With all of the needs the Braves have, giving Fookie that type of money with back problems is silly at best.
CC? Yankees now saying they will exceed any other offers for him. Do, or can the Braves want to get into that type of bidding war?
Wren really has some work to do. Wishing him the best, really would like to see the Braves competitive again.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 6, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this
Don’t Trade Francouer,
About 18 months ago you might have gotten some support. But for whatever reason (yep, he might have been playing hurt), Lil Bridge took a big step back in 2008.
He was completely overpowered and outmatched by major league pitching. He looks like someone who won’t hit his weight, which is what, 150?
If he’s with the Braves he’ll have a chance to redeem himself this year — for one thing, if Yunel is traded he may battle Infante for the SS job.
But based on 2008, there’s no way they’re counting on Lil Bridge to be anything more than an emergency player, probably starting the year in Gwinnett.
By Saltywoody
November 6, 2008 1:27 PM | Link to this
Re: Cleanup Hiiter
Is it just me, or does anyone else see a hole in the middle of our lineup?
I think Ludwick would be a good acquisition, depending on who it takes to land him. And if Peavy requires Escobar, then I still think you have to do that. The Braves already have a lot of offensive Escobars in their lineup…guys that will hit for a decent average with moderate power, but are better suited for the 2-hole.
The problem with the offense, as I see it, is that you don’t have a cleanup hitter. McCann filled in last year, but to me, he’s a five-hole hitter. He’s going to need his days off and he’s better suited protecting someone else, rather than being the one who needs protecting.
I know cleanup hitters are hard to come by. But, my point is that I don’t see Ludwick as a cleanup guy. He’s a 2 or 3 hole hitter.
For left field, we should be looking to acquire someone that has some power and can protect Chipper. Adam Dunn is going to be expensive and strikes out a lot. But, he’s got the requisite power that you want from a cleanup guy.
And a guy like Ibanez, while good, just doesn’t seem suited for that role.
I say all this because I feel like the Braves desperately need a middle of the order guy. It’s what we had when we did so well in the postseason (Big Cat, Crime Dog, Andruw when he was right, etc.)
Without a guy like that, teams can get through the top of the order too easily. You pitch around Chipper, and you get McCann/Kotchman/Frenchy in some order, without ever having to face someone that is likely to hit it out of the park.
Anyone else agree? Any proposed solutions?
By TennesseePaul
November 6, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this
If the Braves think they can upgrade at SS after trading Escobar for Peavy, fine. But they cannot afford do the latter and fail at the former. The Braves simply don’t have enough offensive depth to suffer any run-producing loss
Perhpas they realize that, even in the best world, they may not contend this year. They’d never admit it this early into the offseason. They didn’t even admit it when they signed “The Tee”. All we heard was “He was an All Star one year.” Even still, they will aim to do the best they can on all fronts. I imagine that if they manage to lock up a strong rotation and fall short on offense, they’ll be happy and spin it in a positive light.
When the team is finalized for this season, you’ll be able to have an idea of how far it can go. If the offense looks weak, but the pitching is front line and locked up for at least 3 to 4 more years, I’ll be happy. (1995 was a very weak hitting team so all hope isn’t lost). Maybe it takes two offseasons to get the monster bats we need. But to rebuild an entire rotation with youth and top of the rotation types that are locked up for a while in one off season would be a major accomplishment.
To do it all in one off season would be a miracle. I like miracles, but I don’t expect them.
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this
And the evidence is squarely with the nice guys finishing last in this sport.
no it isnt. -DAP
Sorry, allow me to rephrase. The evidence is with not-nice guys finishing first in this sport. And also with the nice guys finishing last in this blog.
By Threadkiller
November 6, 2008 1:32 PM | Link to this
Looks like the Cubs are in Hot pursuit of Peavy and Dempster!! This from MLB Traderumors..
Ken Rosenthal is working overtime today with his second column. This time Rosenthal reports that the Cubs are willing to give Ryan Dempster a four-year deal even if they land Jake Peavy from the Padres.
The club also is willing to give Dempster a four-year contract, sources say, a decision that should put them in good position to retain the free-agent right-hander.
Even though the Cubs are for sale, team officials apparently believe that they can absorb the four years and $63 million remaining on Peavy’s contract while committing at least $50 million to Dempster over the same term.
Rosenthal notes the close relationship between Dempster and Jim Hendry could keep Dempster from accepting a longer or more lucrative deal with another team.
However, Rosenthal notes there would likely be a ripple effect on the roster if the Cubs were to resign Dempster and trade for Peavy.
The Cubs would likely be unable to resign Kerry Wood. Several players may have to be traded to reduce payroll, including Jason Marquis. May have to opt for a cheaper left-handed hitting outfielder than originally thought.
By Braveheart
November 6, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this
Isn’t the idea of trading Escobar that you wouldn’t have to trade any untouchable? I thought it was two untouchables and three lessers or Escobar and three lessers? If not, even more reason why Escobar shouldn’t be included in this trade.
By richbrave
November 6, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this
SKULL:
You ought to post more often. I like it.
By FloridaBrave
November 6, 2008 1:37 PM | Link to this
I’d love to see Peavy in a Braves uniform. Who wouldn’t? But I’ve never been keen on the idea of trading Escobar. And the fact that the rumored package is Escobar, Schafer, Morton, and Locke makes me dislike it even more. We get a legitimate ace signed for a below-market contract, but I don’t know who we’d get to replace Escobar. He’s one of the best fielding SS in the National League, is an above average hitter, and is under team control for a while. In addition, Schafer has a good shot at winning the CF job in spring training and I’m not comfortable going into the season with Anderson or Blanco as our starting CFs. I understand we have to give up value to get value- probably better than most people on the blog- but trading a bundle of young, affordable players is not the direction we should be going in- especially when it’s going to be extremely difficult for the Braves to compete for a pennant next year.
Sign Tazawa and take a page out of the Dodgers’ book this off-season. Keep your prospects and sign free agents to shorter-term, higher salary per year deals whereas they “hold-the-fort” yet at the same time don’t block any of the younger talent. Then next year, when you have a healthy Tim Hudson coming back as well as the “next wave” of young talent (more) ready to contribute(Morton, Reyes, Hanson, Tazawa, Medlen, Schafer, Hernandez, Kimbrel, Flowers, Rohrbough, Heyward?, etc.), then you can be more aggressive in the trade market.
By Dadgum
November 6, 2008 1:37 PM | Link to this
Anyone that thinks Lillibridge will have a chance to “compete” for the SS spot this spring should Escobar be traded is living in some kind of fantasy land.
Do you honestly believe the Braves (especially if they land Peavy) would put anyone inexperienced in the most important position on the field after pitcher/catcher. NO! Ain’t happening. No way no how. Now they may keep Infante and Lillibridge as utility guys (if not traded) but the Braves will have SS solidified via free agency or trade long before spring training rolls around.
Also I honestly don’t believe that Wren will trade Escobar to San Diego without already having his replacement lined up so to speak.
Oh yeah, the Braves would have no problem trading away their middle infield in the same off-season. Are you serious? Prado will be perfect as the everyday 2nd baseman. More natural there and will create more outs. Prado is an upgrade over Johnson. Perhaps not in HR potential but as a prototypical MLB 2nd baseman.
Acquiring a Renteria or similar to pair with Prado in the middle while getting Peavy is the ticket. They could then trade KJ to St. Louie for Ludwick.
Rock on……ain’t nothing like a view from the cheap seats.
By matt
November 6, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
N8,
I totally agree with your 12:33. That is the point I made earlier this morning. Ludwick, if he has a year like last year, can make up for the HR, RBI numbers that we lose if we trade KJ and Yunel. I think if you can get Peavy and Ludwick by giving up Escobar, KJ, Shafer, Morton and one or two other prospects, do it.
Escobar COULD be an elite SS, but I don’t think he is irreplaceable. Give Lillibridge a shot, give Prado a shot. I really like KJ and Yunel, but we HAVE to get someone that can hit a home run every once in a while, and we HAVE to get some good starting pitching.
By skull
November 6, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
BTW, why haven’t all of the TP haters here been calling for the signing of Don Baylor who announced last week that he’s available for signing with any team that wants his services?
Not saying the Braves should do it, just wondering why all of sudden it’s so quiet about TP.
By N8
November 6, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
TennesseePaul
Excellent post.
By Original Jon
November 6, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this
Threadkiller You have done absolutely that with that post, that stuff was talked about hours ago. Read the blog man.
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 6, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this
Dadgum, didn’t the Braves decide to go with an “unproven” player at the “most important position” on the field when they traded all-star SS Edgar Renteria to make room for rookie Yunel Escobar? Just curious what you think about that.
Skull, the Braves have already come out and explicitly said there will be no coaching changes this offseason. Not that we bloggers are against debating impossible roster moves, but TP is 100% for next year, according to Frank Wren.
By DAP
November 6, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this
saltywoody my point is that I don’t see Ludwick as a cleanup guy. He’s a 2 or 3 hole hitter.
care to explain why? the truth is, most of his at bats in 2008 were batting cleanup behind albert pujols. if he can protect pujols, he can protect chipper. there is absolutly no reason why ludwick cant bat cleanup, especially with a guy like mccann hitting behind him.
By KC
November 6, 2008 1:52 PM | Link to this
Lew: I know that Smoltz-to-the-pen (if he comes back at all) has been a widely discussed assumption, but I just wasn’t aware of Smoltz having said anything to that affect.
IF Smoltz can make it back and be as or nearly as effective as he was before the shoulder injury… and IF Smoltz’s arm feels good and strong through the winter and spring… it wouldn’t shock me to see him return to the rotation.
I agree that it may be more likely that he’ll return to the pen, but until we hear some official word to that effect, I won’t make that assumption.
Personally, if he’s reasonably healthy and strong at the start of the season and appears capable of starting… I would go the Clemens route. After he pitches just enough in the winter/spring to show he’s capable of coming back and maybe even starting, I would hand him a fishing pole and say “see you on June 1”.
If he makes it back, it would be a tall order to ask him to start for a full season PLUS (hopefully) the post-season. But 4 months of the season, plus October? That may be a possibility.
I’m positive that Smoltzy will tell the Braves what he can or cannot do, and they’ll listen.
By Lee in S GA
November 6, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
Not saying the Braves should do it, just wondering why all of sudden it’s so quiet about TP.
My guess is because we are not currently watching the Braves leaving men on base, Francouer working his magic at the plate, Johnson and Escobar going into one of their slumps, Blanco and Anderson demonstrate why the majority think they suck with the bat to start with. Kind of out of sight, out if mind thing. Just like no one is blaming Cox on anything right now. It will return once the season starts, I have no doubt.
By ncscoots
November 6, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this
TPaul, I wouldn’t disagree with your points of 1:28…at all. However, should that come to pass, then I’ll probably take 2009 off, myself, LOL. Because I guarantee that every “pitching-pitching-pitching” poster here will be “b!tching-b!tching-b!tching” in regard to the lack of offense, by the time May 1 rolls around. And life’s too short to endure six months of THAT!
By DAP
November 6, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this
bubdylan evidence is with not-nice guys finishing first in this sport. And also with the nice guys finishing last in this blog.
ok, im sorry. let me rephrase as well…no, it is not.
By RC
November 6, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this
The problem with the team as currently constructed is that there are NO known quantities….there are just varying degrees of risk and upside. Escobar COULD develop into an All-Star, though not likely. Chipper COULD play 150 games, though not likely. KJ and Francouer COULD experience resurgences, though not a sure thing. McCann is the closest thing we’ve got to a known quantity, and your catcher is always one foul tip or play at the plate away from major injury. The other problem is that we have a TON of players that may or may not be anything more than good bench players (Diaz, Prado, Infante, Blanco, Anderson, B. Jones…). The only way to find out is to play them, but to go into the season saying these guys will play major roles is to take a HUGE gamble on the season, and it’s unlikely they will all pan out. Wren is in a very tough situation, and it’s going to take some creative problem solving to pull together a competitive team by March.
By Jersey Gil
November 6, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this
Anyone If we need a leftfielder with power , why we need to look for a provent MLB player, why not look for other team surplus minor league prospect. If i’m a GM i try to make this trade: Lilli/Morton for “Lou Montanez” for the Baltimore Orioles, Baltimore need a SS and they have plenty Outfielder, This Kid was the MVP Triple Crown winner in the Eastern League (AA) last year. This Kid has Power and a good Glove.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 2:02 PM | Link to this
Bobby’s Cox Interesting point re: Peavy’s splits. Now, I would argue that a two-game sample at Turner Field and a different two-game sample in the playoffs is not much to go on. With regard to the home/road splits, however, that concerned me, so I dug a little deeper and now feel better about it.
Here are Peavy’s home/away ERAs for the past 5 seasons:
2008 - 1.74/4.28; 2007 - 2.51/2.57; 2006 - 3.75/4.57; 2005 - 2.81/2.98; 2004 - 2.21/2.33
Obviously, 2005 was a bad year altogether, which leaves the only year in which there was a startling difference in Peavy’s home/road ERAs as 2008. Interestingly, here is where Peavy’s road starts were made in 2008: LA Dodgers (twice), Houston, Florida, Wrigley, Yankee Stadium, Arizona (twice), St. Louis, Cincy, Pittsburgh, Coors Field, and Miller Park. So, out of 13 road starts, 6 were at complete bandboxes. It may not explain his 2008 splits completely, but it’s a thought. Another thought is that it was mere coincidence. One bad year on the road, though, is not going to concern me too much, at least not when it doesn’t appear to have been much of a problem before that.
By Mr J
November 6, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this
If the Braves don’t want K. Greene back in a trade, then mayber the Padres are finding that nobody does. Maybe they are in a similar situation to what the Braves have with Francoeur- can’t get true value now in a trade, but if performance improves in 2009 then there will be a better return.
So if the Padres need to stick with Greene for one more year, then maybe Peavy can be had for Schaefer and a list of pitchers not named Hanson. No Escobar required. Then what?
If Escobar is retained, then KJ becomes tradeable for Ludwick. Who plays 2nd? Prado? What if Renteria were willing and able to make the position switch? Wouldn’t you rather have Edgar in your line-up than Martine?
You then have a lineup like this: 1. Escobar SS, 2. Renteria 2b 3. Jones 3b 4. Ludwick LF 5. McCann C 6. Francoeur LF 7. Kotchman 1b 8. Blanco/Anderson CF
You think thats crazy then think of this: What if the Dodgers would like to be rid of Andruw so much that they’ed send him to us for a bag of balls and eat half his salary? He would give us a year of CF and provide a bridge to Gorkys. I would bat Andruw 6th and bump Francoeur down to 8th. That line-up has lots of power and a nice Lefty-Righty balance.
Somebody pass the pipe back this way…
By Marty
November 6, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this
FloridaBrave take a page out of the Dodgers’ book this off-season. Keep your prospects and sign free agents to shorter-term, higher salary per year deals whereas they “hold-the-fort” yet at the same time don’t block any of the younger talent. While the Dodgers have done a good job of scouting and developing young talent, the rest of their “book” has been to sign overpriced free agent after overpriced free agent, desperately hoping that at least a couple of them will work out. See: Furcal, Pierre, Andruw, Nomar, Kent, etc. Let’s not do that.
By kerrielynn
November 6, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this
I think the most logical thing to do is to trade Yunel in the Peavy deal. I will agree that he is very talented and probably has a good career ahead of him, however his attitude and sometimes over zealous playing in the field does not fit into the braves clubhouse. I recall seeing numerous collisions or close one’s this past season where Yunel had to “hot dog it” and try to play every position on the field. Than there came a string of games where he just completely “forgot” how to play SS. Keeping Kelly is the way to go. HE just got off of his second full season back from Tommy John surgery and he made massive improvements. He has some of the best statitstics out there for a second baseman and I see next year as being even better than this year. He will continue where he left off.
We also all know that as much as we love Chipper, he probably won’t be able to play a full season, which would mean given the talent that was shown at the end of the season Martin would be a great fill in at 3rd when needed. Obviously he could also fill in at 2nd when needed. HE has proven to be a valuable asset to the team. If we could not get a player like Edgar back (which would be incredible if we could) than I would say you play Omar at SS until you feel Brent is ready for the Bigs. IF you start Omar at SS in Spring Training I believe we will be less likely to see those mental errors he had last season. He is a hard worker and a very talented athlete.
By TennesseePaul
November 6, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this
ncscoots: There will be some sober minded folks around who realize the beauty of having a strong rotation and one more offseason to build. You can scroll past the B!tchers and mingle with the rest, right?
By Tomahawkin
November 6, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this
Anyone interested in going after Hideki Matsui…? I was talking to a yankees fan who cites that they could trade Matsui for pitching (while eating up half of his salary) and then going hard after Manny…
Matsui isn’t Gozilla like he was hyped up to be (From ESPNY) but he is very consistant…
Bumping some old Ice Cube (Wicked), Nuff Respect to Cube. At least he hasn’t sold out…
By Wiley T
November 6, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this
What if the Dodgers would like to be rid of Andruw so much that they’ed send him to us for a bag of balls and eat half his salary?
Mr J No, the balls are too valuable.
By Tomahawkin
November 6, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this
While I like to see the Renteria talk coming back, Why has everyone given up on K.J?
If he rakes for a whole season like he did the second half of 08 he is capable of drinving in 85 runs/year…
Also is there any rumors of him moving back to the outfield if we don’t add a big bat in the OF?
I also like the idea of bring Nate Mclouth down to the “A”…but he won’t come at a cheap price, since he will be an essential part of the Pirates Future if they have any…
By Efrim
November 6, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this
Okay, some Keith Law chat questions and answers:
Steve (St. Louis): Do you see the Cardinals trading Ludwick for Yunel Escobar? There have been some rumors and it would be a good sell high for the Cards. Would Atlanta do it?
Keith Law: (2:08 PM ET ) Great deal for the Cards but I don’t see Atlanta doing it. They really like Escobar and they don’t have a ready replacement for him.
Patrick (Mobile, AL): Do you see Peavy going to atlanta and if so will hanson be part of the deal.
Keith Law: (2:14 PM ET ) I still think that’s the most likely destination but Hanson and Heyward will not be part of the deal. The bigger question, again, is when and by how much SD lowers its asking price.
Mike (San Diego): Buster Olney speculates: “At some point, the Braves and Padres may well strike a deal built around shortstop Yunel Escobar, center fielder Jordan Schaefer, pitcher Charlie Morton and one more pitching prospect. The Padres are known to have interest in left-hander Jeff Locke, a 20-year-old who pitched in Class A last season.” Is this enough in return for the Padres?
Keith Law: (2:19 PM ET ) Yes, that’s more than I’d give up for Peavy. It does give them two major-league players (Morton goes right in their rotation) and two top prospects, but leaves Heyward and Hanson and Freeman and Flowers (how could they not have interest in Flowers??) in Atlanta.
Pat (Philly): Is this Peavy to Cubs stuff just noise to make Atlanta panic, or are the Cubs competitive in this deal?
Keith Law: (2:19 PM ET ) I’m struggling to put together a good enough offer from the Cubs. Vitters and … um … well, they could send Ceda back.
By Robert
November 6, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this
DOB
Do you think we are going to trade Jordan Schafer?
By McFann O
November 6, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this
Saltywoody McCann filled in last year, but to me, he’s a five-hole hitter.
I think so, too. His AVG, OBP, and SLG are all better in the sixth spot…but, in 69 career games (62 starts) in the sixth spot, he’s got 33 RBI, 22 doubles, and 10 homers, whereas in the fifth spot, in 211 career games (210 starts), he’s got 161 RBI, 57 doubles, and 40 homers.
So that’s four times as many homers, about five times as many RBI, and almost three times as many doubles in a little over three times as many games…
I’m also of the mind (no kidding) that thinks he should stay in the fifth spot all the time—but that depends upon how he and Francoeur do against lefties next year.
I gotta split. I’ll be back, um…after later.
By Raddad
November 6, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
Jake Peavys playoff ERA is high because he had a cracked or broken rib if I remember correctly versus the cardinals. I would throw that number out the door.
By Efrim
November 6, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this
And another….
Eric (Atlanta): Suprised to not hear Cole Rohrbough’s name brought up in the Padres talks. What is his ceiling?
Keith Law: (2:27 PM ET ) I agree - mid-rotation starter potential, had a down year but as much due to injuries (biceps, then ankle) as anything else. In a deal like a Peavy trade, you want to try to add one guy at the back end who is undervalued at the moment - the way Oakland did getting Josh Donaldson.
By FloridaBrave
November 6, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this
Marty,
Their free agents haven’t worked out, but I think the strategy could be a good one to replicate.
People are going to try to emulate the D-Rays now and the Braves have the system and scout well enough to pull this off. In addition-unlike the Devil Rays- they also have the money to bridge the gap between the present and future.
Peavy is not a short-term fix obviously but the rumored package right now is hefty. Peavy for the right price is fine but I don’t want the Braves to be so caught up with Peavy that they lose sight of the big picture.
By Midnight Express99
November 6, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
I feel uneasy with Yunel Escobar, Charlie Morton,Jordan Schafer, and Jeff Locke. I have made it clear Peavy should be a Brave but Yunel and Schafer are two centerpieces. Keep Schafer out of this. We have major issues in OF and the last idea would be trading the future star. Hernedez is still a few years away.
According to ESPN’s Buster Olney, the Nationals are preparing to make a significant offer to Mark Teixeira.
Unexpected Rumor!
By Melly
November 6, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this
DOB, why are the Braves reluctant to give up Morton in a deal for Peavy? Is it simply a cost issue? Projecting young pitchers is tough at best, and they are banking on the hope Morton becomes 75% the pitcher Peavy is at only 27 years old. Violent delivery or not, I make the trade for Peavy and give up Morton gladly. When Peavy’s deal is up in 3-4 years, the Padres won’t be able to afford Morton, then you trade for him with the $ you save with Peavy off the books :)
By Mr J
November 6, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this
Wiley T,
It’s easy to laugh at Andruw, but even after the 2007 disaster, if you could have signed him for $8M, wouldn’t you hve done it? Without Schaefer in the picture, I’d do that deal in a heartbeat.
By Dan
November 6, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
I really want to see Andruw bounce back and have a great season. He was one of my favorite players to watch.
By DAP
November 6, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this
Mr J but even after the 2007 disaster, if you could have signed him for $8M, wouldn’t you hve done it?
well, sure…but now its after the 2008 season. i wouldnt want him for the league minimum.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 6, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this
Mr J,
I’d take my chances with Anderson or Blanco rather than Andruw, unless you’re paying him the major league minimum and could release him. He looks like he’s done.
*Tomahawkin,8
Matsui’s power numbers have declined steadily the last four or five years. And all the reports from NY suggest that Matsui’s lost whatever range he had a few years back. He can’t get to anything any more. If you’re going to go for an expensive OF who can’t cover any ground, I’d rather get Dunn, who’s younger and can still pound the ball.
By Nuke LaLoosh
November 6, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this
DOB and fellow bloggers- Everyone seems to frown upon giving up Escobar and taking on Khalil Greene… but I believe that if the Braves were to take Greene in a trade with the Padres for Peavy and Greene in exchange for Escobar and two lesser prospects, it would be good for all sides. I have a feeling Greene could have a bounce-back type year- let’s not forget that this guy has potential to hit 25 homers and drive in 80 - 100 RBIs (in the right batting order slot, of course). Escobar won’t do that, in my opinion. I think Greene just needs change of scenery to fulfill his potential. Peavy costs us what 12 M, Greene 6.5 M? That’s less than half of the Braves alloted spending money. Then trade KJ for Ludwig- there’s our power-hitting OF without taking on much more salary, if any. Braves then still have over 20 M to get another pitcher on free agent market. What do you guys think?
By BravesFanInRockies
November 6, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
If the Cubs land Peavy and re-sign Dempster, they’d better hope Mark Cuban buys the team. It’ll take his billions just to meet payroll and rebuild the farm system.
By Mr J
November 6, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this
DAP & BFIR,
I understand your apprehension about Andruw, but I don’t think the man is done at 30. Fat, yes, done, no.
I think the year in LA might have knocked some sense into his knuckle head. Have Bobby tell him to report at 210 lbs, be prepared to bat lower in the order, and only worry about being the best defensive CF he can be- watever you hit will be a bonus. I think there’s a good chance we’d all be happy with the result.
It also would be great box office! The increased gate might cover a large part of the gamble.
By Bobby's Cox
November 6, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this
Marty
Thanks for “digging deeper”. Good post.
By Lee in S GA
November 6, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
DAP,
Agree with you about A.J. Last season anyone would have signed him for 8 million but after this past season with injuries and all, a minor league contract would be it. Just don’t think bringing players back like Renteria or A. Jones will do much to make this team contenders again. I just as soon give younger players and prospects w/in the organization a chance to see what they can do.
By macdwolfpack
November 6, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this
I would trade Escobar and then resign Renterria on the cheap to play shortstop until I felt Lillbridge or Hicks was ready. I’d give up Morton or Rorhrbaugh in the deal. I wouldn’t do a deal with Morton, Esco,Schaefer,and Locke. Agree with Keith Law the price is way too high. Padres won’t get that price somewhere else
By Marty
November 6, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this
FloridaBrave - I certainly agree with the sentiment of not wanting to give up too much to get Peavy, but on the other hand, it’s kind of like trying to time the stock market — if you speculate for too long, the opportunity is gone — and I think that when you have the opportunity to get a true #1 starter like Peavy, you have to get it done. This was the Mets’ thinking when they pulled off the Santana trade, and as boneheaded as many of their moves have been over the years, that was a good one. It’s a tough choice, no doubt, but I think that it’s a trade we need to make.
Nuke LaLoosh - Escobar at least as good a chance of driving in 80-100 RBI than Greene, and Escobar will hit .280+ in all likelihood. Greene is a career .248 hitters in almost 2,400 at-bats, with an on-base percentage of .304. Even in 2007, which featured his best power numbers by far (27 HR, 97 RBI), he batted just .254 with an awful OBP of .291. Greene has played 5 full seasons in the majors and is now 29 years old, and he has never hit more than 15 homers or driven in more than 70 in any other season.
Even more troubling about Greene, however, is the fact that his walk rate has been steadily decreasing and his strikeout rate has been increasing at an alarming rate. Last season, Greene struck out 100 times and walked just 22 — in only 389 at-bats!
These are the types of numbers one could get out of someone like Lillibridge or any number of other players, and it wouldn’t cost us $6.5 million, which is what Greene is due next year.
I’m not saying that taking on Greene would be the worst decision ever, but I don’t think that he has much upside.
By Bobby's Cox
November 6, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
I could be going off of selective memory, but wasn’t Ludwick’s stats a result of hitting near Pujouls in the batting order?
I could be wrong, but when Pujouls missed time last year, I’m not so sure Ludwick did that well.
Do y’all think Ludwick will produce in Atlanta without Pujouls?
I think he’ll do ok, but not 37 HR ok. With that said, I’d trade for him in a heartbeat for Johnson due to the Braves having a decent backup for 2nd, but no one solid for the outfield.
By nolie
November 6, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
Francoeur looks more like the young Eric Davis that he did two and three seasons agoN8
a young Eric Davis? Really?IMO he ain’t nothing like Eric, in fact I would have been hard pressed to ever have come up with that name to compare him to. Eric was a 125 OPS+ hitter with tremendous speed. Jeff is a 97 OPS+ hitter who is very average in speed. Just not seeing this one N8.
By Nuke LaLoosh
November 6, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this
Forgot to mention in my message above, Prado fills in at 2B if KJ trade happens. Greene takes Escobar’s place, so you’ve left no holes in lineup or defense. In my scenario, the Braves have added power to the lineup twice (Greene, at least more power than Escobar, and then Ludwick). Plus, you’ve done all this without even spending half of your supposed $40 M available. And remember- this is just my opinion, so don’t get too worked up like some of you are prone to doing… I’m just tossin’ out some what if’s… we’re all friends here.
By Bravestillidie
November 6, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this
For all Greene speculators
I would not bother worrying about Greene being a Brave. As DOB has stated, First the Braves don’t want him…and Second, for some crazy unknown reason other teams do. Towers has already been quoted as saying that if both players are moved it would be in seperate trades. So don’t worry about him coming to Atlanta, most likely ain’t gonna happen, especially not if the Braves can help it.
By DAP
November 6, 2008 3:35 PM | Link to this
marty you have the opportunity to get a true #1 starter like Peavy, you have to get it done. This was the Mets’ thinking when they pulled off the Santana trade,
not really. the mets refused to trade what the twins were asking, until they were the only ones trying to get santana, and drove the price down. they didnt make the deal for santana as fast as they could.
By nolie
November 6, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this
Am I the only Brent Lillibridge fan in the room?Dont Trade
Might be. the guy has hiy worse and worse as he has ascended the ladder especially as regards getting on base and not making outs. He has the defensive tools no doubt, but it is still a big question is he is anything more than a mediocre #8 hitter in the bigs. I’m hoping that he isn’t what they are gonna count on if Esco goes
By Bobby's Cox
November 6, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this
FloridaBrave
Excellent 1:37 pm post. I agree.
There’s still a lot of talent out there for the braves to trade: Marek, Medlin, Redmond, Lilbridge, B. Jones, Anderson, Blanco, Locke, Rohrborough, KJ, Prado, Francoeur, JoJo Reyes, Campillo, Morton, Diaz.
I wouldn’t trade Escobar because there’s no one there to take his place. People want to give Lilibridge a chance. Are you kidding me? We’ll have 2 players on our roster hitting .230 the Right Fielder and our short stop.
Maybe San Diego’s is continuing to ask about Hanson to keep the Braves offer high, i.e. Escobar and Schafer. If the Braves lay low for a while, maybe they can get Peavy for less.
Schafer should be in center next year, and Escobar at short. Period.
By Nuke LaLoosh
November 6, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
macdwolfpack- I’m a fan of bringing back Renteria for a year or two to fill in if Escobar is traded. I like that idea, although I worry about Renteria’s age and range just a bit- but not enough to nix the idea.
By BA
November 6, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
n8, Eric Davis was spectacular. Part of the greatest outfield that never was.
By Robert
November 6, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
I honestly don’t know if we will be a better team after this trade. We can’t give up Escobar and Schafer. We need to relax and Frank Wren needs to be willing to walk away. Kelly Johnson, Charlie Morton, and Gorkys Hernandez and Jeff Locke is a far better option than the Cubs can offer. Felix Pie and Ronny Cedeno are bench warmers. KEvin Towers is creating suitors where their aren’t any. Like Boras did with A-Rod. Texas made the Mistake. Let’s hope Wren keeps cool.
By Jonathon
November 6, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
Latest from Ken Rosenthal:
In the first big showdown of the offseason, it’s the Braves vs. the Cubs for Padres right-hander Jake Peavy.
Both teams continued to target Peavy as the general managers’ meetings concluded Thursday, and the Padres’ discussions with the Cubs could be expanded to include a third team, according to major-league sources.
The Braves’ package includes shortstop Yunel Escobar, either left-hander Jo-Jo Reyes or right-hander Charlie Morton and a third player, believed to be a top prospect, sources said.
The details of the Cubs’ proposal are not known and likely are fluid. The Padres could spin one or more of the players they would receive from the Cubs to get additional pieces from another team, sources said.
The Braves’ edge over the Cubs is that Escobar already is an established major leaguer, while Reyes or Morton also could help the Padres next season. The Cubs’ better young players are in the lower minors.
By Lee in S GA
November 6, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this
People want to give Lilibridge a chance. Are you kidding me? We’ll have 2 players on our roster hitting .230 the Right Fielder and our short stop.
And yet he is on your talent list to use as trade bait.
By N8
November 6, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this
nolie
“a young Eric Davis? Really?IMO he ain’t nothing like Eric, in fact I would have been hard pressed to ever have come up with that name to compare him to. Eric was a 125 OPS+ hitter with tremendous speed. Jeff is a 97 OPS+ hitter who is very average in speed. Just not seeing this one N8.”
Yes. Eric Davis had a TON more speed than Francoeur. But their numbers AT THE PLATE and their play in the OF very much resembled each other, IMO.
In Davis’ 1st 371 games (ages 21-25), he had 82 HR, 229 RBI and 156 SB.
In Jeff’s 1st 397 games (ages 21-23), he had 62 HR and 253 RBI, 9 SB.
The hidden number is games played. Those “games played” for Davis was over his first 4 seasons. Jeff played in 26 more games in his first 3 seasons (2 full).
Jeff’s reckless abandon attitude in RF reminds me of a YOUNG Eric Davis.
I get that they are two different players. But Jeff came up with the same fanfare that a young Eric Davis did. Golden Boy and all.
After that, I have to agree with you.
By Don't Trade Franceour
November 6, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this
Does anyone else think the braves should be looking at Brad Penny?
I know the sore shoulder is a horrible sign, but he is only 30 and not too far removed form starting the All-Star game. Only a few more than a dozen starts last year, but 200+ innings in ‘07 and 189 innings in 2006.
Penny is a big guy and a hard thrower, and historically those types of guys seem to be able to pitch to their 40s.
By DAP
November 6, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this
bobby’s cox ludwick mostly batted in the cleanup spot behind pujols.
from what i can tell, ludwick did struggle alot when pujols wasnt in the lineup.
do i think he will produce in atlanta? definetly. pujols and chipper are pretty similar hitters. ludwick sandwiched between mccann and chipper would do very well, i think. he will have more RBIs than he did with st. louis, too, because i doubt he will ever be out of the cleanup spot.
By Anders
November 6, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
DAP
not really. the mets refused to trade what the twins were asking, until they were the only ones trying to get santana, and drove the price down. they didnt make the deal for santana as fast as they could.
That’s what I’ve been trying to explain to Lew. If anything I think Towers is trying not to get caught in the same web as the Twins. The way out is to say the limited market Peavy’s given him doesn’t work. We’ll hold on the trade - Then see what happens. Does Peavy crack or do one of their suitors. No rush here for Towers. Pitching is at a premium.
By Doc Holliday
November 6, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this
I would like to know………..I have read some opinions in the last few days that some say that Prado is not better than KJ and that Prado is not ready and not better than Yunel. This is kind of a poll…….the people that dont think that Prado could put better numbers and that cant perform at least as good (defensively) as KJ or Yunel please raise your hand.
Just for the record, IMO, Prado is capable to put the same numbers and play defense equally as good as Yunel and better than KJ. And I can tell you………there might be some braves executives that might be thinking the same, if not, yunels and KJs trade talk would not be so loud.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this
DAP the mets refused to trade what the twins were asking, until they were the only ones trying to get santana, and drove the price down. they didnt make the deal for santana as fast as they could.
The Mets traded their most prized prospect (Carlos Gomez) along with three other prospects, one of whom is a pretty good looking young pitcher (Mulvey) and another of whom (Humber) is still believed by some to have a pretty high ceiling. Although Gomez is young and inconsistent, he has already had some success at the major-league level and still projects, according to many, to be much better than, say, Yunel Escobar. The rest are prospects, so who knows. This, for a guy who was only signed for one more season, and for whom they had to shell out a ton of cash to work out an extension with.
Peavy, by contrast, is locked up at a very (relatively) affordable rate for 4-5 more years. What the Braves are supposedly offering is pretty much in line, proportionately, with what the Mets gave the Twins.
By skull
November 6, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this
DOB earlier today:
“Braves are going to make some moves, folks. No doubt. Significant moves. Just a matter of time.”
Wondering if there’s a surprise trade being considered we haven’t heard about?
Who, if anyone, on here, predicted the Edgar/JJJ trade last year?
Git-r-dun Frank!
By Bonzo
November 6, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this
Towers is not dealing from a position of strength as each day passes. We’ll have to give up someone like Escobar, but I hope the rest is something along the lines of Morton, Rorhbough and Brandon Jones (although I’m afraid it will ultimately have to be Flowers or Gorkys in that last spot). Still, to win and win in the postseason, got to have a potential shut-down No. 1.
To replace Escobar, I’d be interested in someone like Orlando Cabrera. I think Cabrera’s a Type A free agent. He’d be pretty good, cheaper than Furcal but more expensive than Edgar.
If Escobar is out then I’m assuming Kelly is back at 2B and the Ludwick trade is off the table. How about signing Raul Ibanez for LF then?
I was hoping Wren would get in on the A.J. Burnett or Derek Lowe sweepstakes, but if Boston and the New York teams are in it, then I’d guess we might be out. That means Dempster is more likely who he will pursue heavily, but he’ll have to outbid the Cubbies in years, probably.
What would you think if the Braves looked like this in April:
Other starters: Dempster, JJJ, Hampton, Hanson
Starting lineup would have lots of lefties. Is it too many? Is Ibanez not enough for LF? I think he’d give Chipper adequate protection.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this
Don’t Trade Francoeur - I, for one, do not agree with you that the Braves should be looking at Penny. He’s never lived up to his supposed potential, and he remains a huge injury risk. I will also demand to be terribly overpaid. Let someone else make that mistake.
By LKS
November 6, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this
Mike (Charlotte): So are you still against the Braves trading a prospect package for Jake Peavy?
Jim Callis: Yes. Still think they’re more than one player away and that Peavy will slightly disappoint whoever gets him.
Mark (Boston): Beckett or Peavy?
Jim Callis: Beckett. Has proven he can pitch outside of a pitcher’s park and has a much better track record in big games.
By Jeff R
November 6, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this
I don’t believe that Wren will walk from a deal with the Padres if they want Escobar as the centerpiece - as long as he doesn’t have to give up any of his top tier prospects. I strongly believe that Morton would be included. Then, I think, there’s a drop down to a Locke caliber pitching prospect (perhaps, Locke will be it.).
That leaves Wren to decide shortstop. Might he bring back Renteria for a season? Don’t recall what Renteria wants. But it’s possible. Lillibridge doesn’t begin to make up for te loss of Escobar’s offense, but I do think he’s a more capable hitter than he should last season (He was bounced around a lot). And he can field th position capably.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this
Doc Holiday - Prado may (and I do mean “may”) hit for a higher average than Kelly, but Prado will never hit for power like Kelly could (or even like he has).
By Efrim
November 6, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this
So it sounds like that third player Rosenthal is talking about is Jordan Schafer. Maybe the other top prospect is Gorkys Hernandez. Who knows?
One thing is for certain, if we get Peavy, Reyes/Morton and Escobar are included.
Seems like a lot, especially if they add Schafer and Locke.
By DAP
November 6, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this
anders peavy also isnt a free agent at the end of 2009 like santana was. not only does this make it possible for towers to get more for him, but he still has alot of trade value after 2009.
wren waiting and biding his time is a smart move. you have to make every trade on your own terms.
By Doc Holliday
November 6, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this
Sorry Bonzo but the cubs are the front runners for Peavy and Dempster……….
By Anders
November 6, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
Marty
The Mets traded their most prized prospect (Carlos Gomez)
Wrong - Fernando Martinez was and still is their most prized prospect. He was a top 20 before the trade. Plus the Twins wanted Reyes. I wasn’t suprised when Reyes didn’t go but I absolutely thought Martinez was gone. Gomez is ok, but no way he has the tools or potential of Escobar. There’s a big difference between a light hitting fast outfielder and a solid two way short stop with pop.
Unless there’s something going on that we don’t know about Escobar (physical or mental make up) I wouldn’t give him up. He could anchor your infield for years after Chipper retires. Peavy is a solid pitcher but not a must have horse. If I’m Wren I wait out Towers and take my chances.
By Steve from OH
November 6, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
Escobar, Schafer, Morton and Locke? Hell no.
I would do Escobar, Gorkys and Morton. Would not add Locke into that deal. If they want a low-level guy, offer Richard Sullivan or someone like that. Locke’s too good to be a throw-in.
I think the Cubs thing is a sign that Towers is getting desperate. Just don’t think the Cubs have the youngsters to complete a deal.
I’d do a deal around Esco and Morton, but wouldn’t add much else past Gorkys.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
LKS
Mark (Boston): Beckett or Peavy?
Jim Callis: Beckett. Has proven he can pitch outside of a pitcher’s park and has a much better track record in big games.
Beckett sure was great in “big games” this year: 14.1 IP, 22 H, 14 ER, 6 BB, 14 K, 7 HR in his 3 postseason appearances. You would think that his 8.93 ERA and 1.95 WHIP this postseason would have taken some luster off of his “big game pitcher” reputation, but apparently not to some folks.
By Doc Holliday
November 6, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
Marty………..Prado has little less power than KJ……..but there is something he has…………and that is the ability to find the GAP. And he does it very very well. He might hit less HR, but more 2B and 3B if he gets to play every day.
By McFann O
November 6, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this
OK, I read a thing (well, part of it) about the USA team in the WBC…it had a “possible projection of Team USA’s 2009 roster, based on players survey, positional breakdown and certain variables, primarily MLB teams’ attitude toward participation by specific players.”
There are two Braves listed: Chipper Jones and Mike Gonzalez. We’ll see what happens…
Oh! And guess what! I found out when they’re gonna announce the NL Silver Sluggers: November 13!
Now I cann quit buggin’ you guys! ; )
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 6, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this
It just seems to me that giving Penny $45 miillion over 4 years isn’t a bad idea if nothing comes of the Peavy dealings…
Doc Holliday..I’m all for Prado. But of him, Yunel and Kelly, he is the third best player (but his glove is probably a little better than Kelly’s).
By Steve from OH
November 6, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
There is video of all of the Braves’ AFL players, including Flowers and Hanson on the official site.
By Efrim
November 6, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this
Marty
I haven’t read the convo between you and Anders, but that Johan deal was a steal.
Fernando Martinez and Mike Pelfrey are still in that organization. There is no reason why they shouldn’t be in Twins uniforms.
It was basically a salary dump for Twins GM Bill Smith. Although, they could afford him….
So it was really a miscalculation on his part. If Santana is on that team in 2008, they win the division. Then when Santana left this offseason, they take the two draft picks. It was a bad move from the Twins GM and everyone knew it at the time as well.
By RC
November 6, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this
Anders
I agree about Martinez being the top Mets prospect, and the Mets did get a great deal on Santana for only Gomez. The difference between that trade and whatever Peavy goes for is the contract attached. With Santana, the Twins were losing him at the end of the season anyway, and the Mets had to fork over what was essentially a free agent level contract to Santana in order to get him. With Peavy, he’s signed for the next 4 seasons at below market value, with an option for the 5th season. Because of this, the price will likely be a lot higher for him than what the Mets paid for Santana. I do agree that Escobar + Schafer is too much, but Escobar and smaller pieces I am completely ok with.
By Goodoleboy58
November 6, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this
*Don’t Trade Franceour, Sheesh *
Let’s throw lots of money at Jason Schmidt and Pedro Martinez while we are at it
By nolie
November 6, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this
numbers AT THE PLATE and their play in the OF very much resembled each other, IMO.
In Davis’ 1st 371 games (ages 21-25), he had 82 HR, 229 RBI and 156 SB.
In Jeff’s 1st 397 games (ages 21-23), he had 62 HR and 253 RBI, 9 SB. N8
nah, I’m sorry N8 but you are pushing it. Davis was a much better hitter . Like I said he was a 125 OPS+. Jeff was only dead average at 100 OPS+ even before his poor 2008. I really don’t see that they are even close. No biggie anyway, just chatter
By Doc Holliday
November 6, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this
One thing that i think is in Braves favor in the Peavy sweepstakes, is our weakness……. Just think about it. If you were the padres and you had Peavys control, would you send him to a team that was already strong pitchingwise? If padres are thinking playoffs……..which rotation would you rather face?
ZAMBRANO, PEAVEY, DEMPSTER, LILLY, HARDEN?
or
PEAVY, JURJENS, HAMPTON, HANSON, CAMPILLO (which might not even get to the playoffs.)
I think its not only what you get, but also the monster you are helping develop. I think Cubs will have to give up way too much in order to get Peavy………maybe not way much more but certainly more than the Braves will need to give.
So the point is……..in this case, being the weaker team, will help us in this situation.
By Anders
November 6, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this
Don’t Trade Franceur
It just seems to me that giving Penny $45 miillion over 4 years isn’t a bad idea if nothing comes of the Peavy dealings…
The Dodgers kicked Penny to the curb at a savings of $7.2 mil next year. Doesn’t that tell you something about Penny? Why would you give him $11 mil a year for 4 years?
He’s obviously got a bad wing.
By RC
November 6, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this
McFann O
In addition to Chipper and Gonzalez, isn’t McCann almost a lock to be invited to the USA team? I figure Mauer has to be on there, and I’d say McCann is #2 on the list. Russell Martin is Canadien, and Jason Varitek is….Jason Varitek. I love Tek, but his days of an elite player ended about 3 years ago.
By Doc Holliday
November 6, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this
BTW Marty………Prado had a .461 SLG% vs. KJs .446.
Isnt SLG %a stat related to hitters power?
By nolie
November 6, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this
….the people that dont think that Prado could put better numbers and that cant perform at least as good (defensively) as KJ or Yunel please raise your hand.Doc
at second Prado is a bit better than Johnson through their careers defensively. at short it is not even close. Marteen does not have either the range or the arm that Esco does. Prado’s lack of range is the reason that they very seldom put him at SS. As a hitter he is a bit less than either one, and I am a prado fan who boosted him all last winter. He’s a good player but not in Esco’s league at all. He definitely will not be the go to SS if Yunel is dealt. He comes much closer to being able to replace Johnson though with less pop.
By DAP
November 6, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this
marty i posted this eariler, but it didnt seem to take.
im aware of what the mets gave up for santana. im also aware that the twins were asking for alot more at first. ALOT more. also, i believe minaya ended up giving the twins less than his original offer for santana.
minaya decided to do the deal on his terms or not at all, and it benifited the team. i think wren should do the same thing. do the trade on his terms only, not jump at the opportunity to get peavy.
By Richie
November 6, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this
I dont see how the Cubs are front runners for Peavy’s services. I see him coming to ATL. Peter Abraham, has said the Padres have told Jake will be traded. The choices are down to 3 clubs And the Yankees aren’t in the mix for him.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this
Doc Holliday - Kelly Johnson hit 39 doubles and 7 triples this year to go along with his 12 homers. I’m pretty sure that he had more doubles than any NL 2B not named Chase Utley. I really like Prado, but there’s just no empirical reason to believe that he will hit for nearly that kind of power. Prado never hit more than 25 doubles, 6 triples, or 5 homers in any minor-league season, and his career slugging percentage in the minors was a paltry .393. Kelly has slugged .440 in the majors and slugged .464 in the minors.
By Efrim
November 6, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH
Here is Ken Rosenthal:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8765068/Cubs,-Braves-in-running-to-get-Pads’-Peavy
The Braves’ package includes shortstop Yunel Escobar, either left-hander Jo-Jo Reyes or right-hander Charlie Morton and a third player, believed to be a top prospect, sources said.
I am going to guess that third player is Jordan Schafer….
I still say Hell No. Make that third player Gorkys Hernandez.
Escobar, Morton or Reyes and Gorkys Hernandez for Jake Peavy.
By Doc Holliday
November 6, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
Don’t Trade Franceour, Sheesh you are wrong, Prado is not the 3rd best player out of Yunel, KJ and Prado……..he just happens to be the player with the less ABs and Innings played.
I cant recall seeing that boy look bad at the plate. He made some superb plays at 2B and 3B.
Great ABs while pinch hitting. Im not saying he is superior than yunel and that he hits better than KJ (hit fields his position way better than KJ though), but if we are getting Peavy or Ludwig in return and letting Prado fill any of those holes……..we will not miss KJ nor Yunel that much…… Prado will do the job, he is capable. Mark my words, you will remember what im saying frequently in 2009.
By Anders
November 6, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this
Efrim
It was a bad move from the Twins GM and everyone knew it at the time as well.
Agreed. And I think this is exactly what Towers is trying to avoid. Giving away an asset. That’s what I’ve been saying all week while DOB was extolling how Towers has to trade him and Peavy won’t go but to a couple of towns and the Braves won’t give any decent prospects etc..
The last part seems a distant memory. Couple days ago it seemed Peavy was coming to the Braves for next to nothing. Now many on here are resigned to Escobar and a good prospect or two.- Wow!
By Marty
November 6, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this
Anders
Hey, I never said that I thought that Gomez was good, just that other people had it in his had that he was a potential 5-tool superstar. I will never understand why anyone wanted Humber at that point in his career, and the 4th guy you sent over to the Twins was a middling “prospect” at best. All of that said, it was still a trade for a one-year rental (at least as far as the Twins were concerned), while Peavy is much different. Your Mets had to pay through the nose to keep Santana beyond that first year, while we would not have to pay much at all to keep Peavy for 4-5 years. If you compare completely different situations, you’re going to get different results.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this
One more thought re: Peavy vs. Santana trade — it’s disingenuous to say that Minaya wasn’t going to make that trade if there was any way he could. The blame goes on the Twins’ GM for overplaying his hand on a 1-year rental and having to settle for what he got. The Padres could easily hold on to Peavy and go through this whole charade again next offseason or even midseason this year, so Towers doesn’t necessarily have to contend with that. Plus, Towers may just do a better job at this than the Twins did in a similar situation. Regardless, suggesting that the Braves (or anyone) should be able to get Peavy for a package similar to what the Twins got for one year of Santana is just silly. If we somehow pull that off, great — and Towers would be an idiot for doing it — but it’s unlikely and unrealistic to expect.
By N8
November 6, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this
“No rush here for Towers. Pitching is at a premium.”
In a perfect world. Yes. No rush for Towers. But allegedly ownership has demanded that they slash payroll in half. Nobody wants Spicoli, and Brian Giles turned down a trade to the Red Sox last year.
Where else are they gonna trim payroll?
Granted, Towers has until April to do it. But you get past January, and his suitors are gonna cut in half.
Surely the Braves and all of their prospects will have moved on by then. Especially if Smoltz and Glavine prove to be healthy (as healthy as 40+ pitchers can be).
Seems to me, if Towers is serious about not only moving Peavy, but getting the MOST for him that he can get, the time to act is NOW.
By skull
November 6, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this
Don’t Trade Franceour
“It just seems to me that giving Penny $45 miillion over 4 years isn’t a bad idea if nothing comes of the Peavy dealings…”
You’re kidding………right?
Not only is his recovery still suspect but he’s considered to be a malcontent & not a team player! One of the reasons the Dodgers dumped him is that he couldn’t even get along with Torre.
If you can’t get along with a player’s mgr like Torre what makes anyone think he’ll get along with BC.
By BBFCFM
November 6, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this
on the Penny comments
he is def. not worth 11 mil a year, especially when the dodgers declined an option for 8.75m. I guess with his buyout he could still be worth 11 mil for this year if someone paid him 9.25m. however, i would pass.
I also echo the sentiments of Anders on this one
By Lew
November 6, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this
KC-Dude, love your optimism, but in the case of Smoltz, I wouldn’t go there.
Think 42 years old. Think just missed an entire season. Think five arm surgeries. Think that he himself admits he might not be back at all. Think not having a vague idea until December or later if he’s even capable of going again. Think relief work. Think several innings a week. Then be happy with what you have (if you have it at all).
No way you even speculate having him back in the rotation. There is absolutely no way you can even think of penciling him in at this point. Think dealing with filling the rotation without Smoltz, Glavine, Hampton or Hudson.
Reality Dude, reality. May not be all that optimistic, but I’m not sure there’s much there to support optimism. The Braves must plan for the worst case scenario. Any other course of action is foolish in the extreme-and Wren has stated as much.
By Joe M.
November 6, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this
Doc Holliday - Kelly Johnson hit 39 doubles and 7 triples this year to go along with his 12 homers. I’m pretty sure that he had more doubles than any NL 2B not named Chase Utley. I really like Prado, but there’s just no empirical reason to believe that he will hit for nearly that kind of power. Prado never hit more than 25 doubles, 6 triples, or 5 homers in any minor-league season, and his career slugging percentage in the minors was a paltry .393. Kelly has slugged .440 in the majors and slugged .464 in the minors.
We need to get Doc Holliday and Bobby’s Cox in the Peavy trade talks. Maybe they could convince the Padres to take Martin Prado instead of someone actually good!
As for the Cubs getting Peavy, I don’t believe it. The Braves I believe, the Cardinals I believe, even the Dodgers I can somewhat believe. The Cubs have nothing but scrap. It’s a PR ploy like the Yankees and Red Sox to make the Cubs’ fans think the team is after everyone good when they’re really not.
Likely too is that the Padres are using the Cubs as useful idiots to drive up the Peavy price.
By McFann O
November 6, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this
RC—
You’d think so…but his name’s not on the list, and he’s not mentioned in the article.
The catchers they have listed are Mauer, Tek, and A. J. Pierzynski. Seems these people get their tips from Clint Hurdle and Russell Martin…
I would be fine if he didn’t go…just kinda weird that they don’t even mention his name. Then again…no it’s not.
Oh, and that Nov. 13 date is listed under the American League…but there’s no date for the NL. And the Gold Gloves show the AL guys first, so either I got it backwards or they did. We’ll see next week, I guess.
By mbatl
November 6, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this
*I am going to guess that third player is Jordan Schafer…. I still say Hell No. Make that third player Gorkys Hernandez. *
Efrim, I have a feeling that’s exactly what the hold-up may be. If the Braves have offered Esco, Schafer and Morton (and maybe an A-level pitcher), Towers would be out of his mind not to take that. That’s probably three starting players in 2009 and beyond.
I bet Wren is trying to sell him Gorkys (or some other prospect) instead of Schafer.
By BBFCFM
November 6, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this
*9 mil
not 9.25
By Lew
November 6, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this
Marty-Dude you make a good point. Comparing a pitcher with one year until Free Agency and a huge contract (and needing to negotiate long term immediately) is very different from a guy who is already signed for five years at below market money. It SHOULD bring a better package than Johan.
The Mets did however, steal Johan for next to nothing, though. Won’t happen with Peavy, but Towers better not make the same mistake the Twins did, or he might just end up with a package containing much less than Yunel.
By BBFCFM
November 6, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this
well i also read they declined a club option for 9.25 million. in any event, i would rather buy 9.25 million lottery tickets than spend it on penny. or 8.75 million if you prefer. in fact, i need to talk to Wren. i’m thinkin lottery tix are the way to go in any event
By Mike
November 6, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this
So many morons on here it’s scary. Do some of these people even follow baseball?
By Joe M.
November 6, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this
Prado will do the job, he is capable. Mark my words, you will remember what im saying frequently in 2009.
Yeah, when Prado puts up another outstanding -3 (that’s NEGATIVE three) at second base on defense and hits .280/.320/.380. we’ll all sure forget about KJ and his +3 (that’s PLUS three) at 2B and his double-digit homeruns and fourth-in-the-NL-at-2B in OPS and plate discipline and speed and slugging and doubles or Escobar’s +20 on defense at SS and his power, OBP skills and whatnot. /sarcasm
Prado is no-doubt the worst of the three. And by a pretty good margin too.
By Bobby's Cox
November 6, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this
DAP
Thanks for answering my question. I agree with your opinion to some extent. For those that think Nelson Cruz is a little inexperienced, I say Ludwick is just about the same, yet older. However, he’d be a great tradeoff for KJ. That’s one trade that makes sense for both teams.
Doc Holiday
Sounds like you’re saying Prado could be the fill in at short? I agree with you that he could fill in at 2nd and be a more consistent bat with higher avg, less HR, but similar doubles & triples numbers as KJ with more range at 2nd. But are you seriously thinking the Braves would plug him in at SS? I’m not sure there’s a bigger Prado fan on here than I, but not even I think he can patrol SS for 162.
By nitram odarp
November 6, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this
ah hell where is DOB i need some new news instead of all of yall’s uneducated speculation. Get Peavy keep the untouchables, unfortunately i think it may be one more year before were back in the post season. peavy is the start i do believe.
By Bobby's Cox
November 6, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this
DOB’s been quiet today.
I wonder if something’s going on.
By Robert
November 6, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this
From Rotoworld
According to the Arizona Republic, the rumor going around the GM meetings this morning was Jake Peavy to the Braves for Yunel Escobar, Gorkys Hernandez and a young pitcher not named Tommy Hanson.
Presumably, Jair Jurrjens is also out. Julio Teheran is another long shot, leaving Jo-Jo Reyes, Jeff Locke and Kris Medlen among the possibilities. It doesn’t seem like enough of a return for Peavy, but there are still wildly differing opinions on Escobar. Some think he’s very capable of blossoming into an All-Star, while others see him as just an average regular. If the Padres got him, it would be with the intention of playing him at shortstop and trading Khalil Greene. They would have the option of stashing Escobar at second for a year, but that wouldn’t be part of the plan.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this
Lew The Mets did however, steal Johan for next to nothing, though. Won’t happen with Peavy, but Towers better not make the same mistake the Twins did, or he might just end up with a package containing much less than Yunel.
Of everything you said there, I have no doubt.
By BBFCFM
November 6, 2008 5:22 PM | Link to this
i tell ya, I don’t even like the idea of trading out Schafer for Gorkys. they both seem to have mammoth potential. and frankly, i almost like Gorkys better. seems like he could be one of the absolute quickest guys to ever play the game…but then again who knows. I’ll reserve talks of ceilings for buildings, cars and outhouses
By Efrim
November 6, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this
I saw that as well Robert.
http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/NickPiecoro/38442
Yunel Escobar, Gorkys Hernadez and a pitching prospect not named Hanson sounds good to me.
Gotta imagine they would want Charlie Morton or Jo Jo Reyes over Kris Medlen. Jeff Locke is a possibility, but he is at least 2 years away.
By Tomas
November 6, 2008 5:27 PM | Link to this
According to what i’ve read, the Braves will have to include Escobar or Hanson to get Peavy. And Hanson is untouchable. They have interest in Jeff Locke, and i’m guessing Charlie Morton as well, and a mid-level prospect.
It’s Escobar, Morton, Locke, and (Brandon Jones, Barbaro Cańizares, or the guy we got for Kotsay) for Jake Peavy. I’d do it.
Now what happens to the SS position. The FA is slim but there are some good candidates like Rafael Furcal, Edgar Renteria, David Eckstein, and Orlando Cabrera.
I love Renteria but let’s face it the guy is getting old, and doesn’t have a lot of range. Cabrera is only one year younger, and he is a leader although a bit problematic this year. Furcal is the best option but his back is an issue(remember Kotsay getting injured when he affirmed he was perfect in spring), and he may ask for a lot of money. Eckstein is okay, but he doesn’t have the arm strength to be a SS.
If each one of them would accept those terms Furcal would be my favorite, then Renteria, then Cabrera, and last Eckstein.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this
Bobby’s Cox - I’m pretty sure DOB’s quiet because he’s been on a plane or otherwise in transit most of the day.
By Bobby's Cox
November 6, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this
Braveheart,
Nice 1:35 pm post today.
By Joe M.
November 6, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this
“The Braves hope to fill their ace hole with Peavy,
DOB!
By clay
November 6, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this
Who else would rather do the KJ for Ludwick over the Peavy deal? Could we not either sign two good FA pitchers or sign one and make a trade for one? I just dont like giving up that much for Peavy.
By cameron
November 6, 2008 5:36 PM | Link to this
It might be Locke, Olney posted earlier on MLBTradeRumors that the Padres are really liking Jeff Locke. So maybe the deal would be.. Yunel Escobar, Gorkys Hernandez, and Jeff Locke for Jake Peavy.
Sounds like a good deal to me, I hate losing Escobar but we need Jake Peavy. And it seems like we cant make anymore deals without making this one first.
By clay
November 6, 2008 5:36 PM | Link to this
Now if it is Esco, Jo Jo and Gorkys you gotta do that even though I hate giving up escobar but I would still wish we would do the Ludwick for KJ cause I believe Prado will do just as good as Kelly with his Defenese and avg. We would have to be able to find a shortstop but we could sign renteria or eckstein for cheap. Then still have 30 Mil to get another pitcher and whoever we get for shortstop. Also we would have the money for Hampton and Smoltzy and maybe Ohman.
By Lew
November 6, 2008 5:37 PM | Link to this
JoeM-Dude, I usually have some disagreements with your posts, but you’re right on with this one. Prado and Infante are GOOD bench players. They are not as good as starters. Take them off the bench and what do you do? Go back to Chris Woodward and Pete Orr? This would weaken not only your starting team, but your bench as well-HARDLY what the Braves need.
Time for people to realize that being a good fill in, able to play numerous positions is a necessity for a team-ON THE BENCH. If Yunel or KJ are gone, then we need to replace them with starters and leave our bench alone!!!!!
By Marty
November 6, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this
clay - There are no FA pitchers who are anywhere near as good as Peavy, and I’m not aware of any other similar pitchers available by trade right now, either.
By cameron
November 6, 2008 5:44 PM | Link to this
In a post on MLBTradeRumors Buster Onley said the Padres were really liking Jeff Locke. So maybe the deal would be.. Yunel Escobar, Gorkys Hernandez, and Jeff Locke. If it is I think thats a great deal. While I dont want to lose Yunel Escobar, and even tho Brent Lillibridge didnt show any great signs last season, hes regarded as a high SS prospect. And we arnt giving up Heyward, Hanson or any of those top prospects.
By cabravesfan
November 6, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this
Lew
Could not agree more with your 5:37…Prado and Infante are so valuable because they can fill in at so many different positions- that does not mean they can start for an entire season at any of them. Both are good at what they do- no doubt there- but like you said, taking them off the bench and putting either of them in the field on a daily basis weakens the lineup AND the bench
By Lew
November 6, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this
Tomas-I think you’re the only one who considers Canizares worth mentioning. I would doubt he’s on ANYONE’S radar, Dude. If he were worth a damn, why didn’t we call him up last year when we dumped Tex and Kotchman went on bereavement leave, instead of putting Prado out of position? For that matter, half the games he played in were at DH. Kind of hard for him to play that position either in Atlanta OR San Diego.
Dude’s almost 30 and still in the minors. Not much chance of a productive ML career at this point.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 6, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this
Escobar, Schafer and Locke might be what the Pads want (with perhaps another low-level pitching prospect).
Escobar, Gorkys, and Locke (plus the same prospect) might be what Wren is offering.
If that’s what’s holding up the deal, Wren should add Brandon Jones. That should do it.
By rammerjammer
November 6, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this
I hope, somewhere in a gym, Lillibridge is working out.
By cameron
November 6, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this
I have a question. If the Braves use Infante and Prado as starters, who do we have as bench players? If we use them as starters then wouldnt we have to spend some money and go get some help for the bench?
By Anders
November 6, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this
Lew
The wife is gone two weeks. You pick her up at the airport this afternoon and your back on the blog already?
That’s not a good sign.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 6, 2008 5:51 PM | Link to this
clay,
Ludwick would be a sweet acquisition, but I’m for Peavy. There’s no guarantee you can sign two FA starters without overpaying for one or both. That means paying a lot more than you’d have to pay Peavy. And no one out there other than CC is better than Peavy.
You still have the money to sign or trade for a middle or back of the rotation guy and not have the 2008 season unravel if you fail to get him and have to settle for, say, Looper or Hampton or one of your minor leaguers.
By Joe M.
November 6, 2008 5:54 PM | Link to this
DOB’s been quiet today.
I wonder if something’s going on.
I think he is on his flight.
By Lew
November 6, 2008 5:56 PM | Link to this
Cameron-I’m one who has been somewhat conflicted with this potential Peavy deal. However, I would be pretty well willing to pull the trigger if it were Yunel, Gorkys and Locke as the package.
I’m not sure if Lillibridge would work as a replacement for Escobar. He might be a decent defensive substitute, but I have serious questions about his hitting. Maybe if we went and Rented Renteria for a year (I for one don’t see him as ready for the scrap heap only a year removed from a career season) and send Lillibridge for extensive sessions with McCann’s Daddy.
By cameron
November 6, 2008 5:57 PM | Link to this
sorry for the double posts up there, didnt think it sent the first time.
By Tomas
November 6, 2008 5:57 PM | Link to this
If the cardinals offered Ryan Ludwick for Kelly Johnson and Wren didn’t agree because he didn’t want to trade both Kelly and Yunel, he is stupid.
I don’t believe the Cardinals would have that stupid also. I believ that he can trade Kelly because of Prado and Infante, and if we fill the outfield, the only thing missing would be the SS position. Within the organization Lillibridge may be given the chance to prove himself. He runs terrificly, has demonstrated power, but not a lot of contact, with more playing time he’d solve that problem. He is also good defensively, not great but good. He has a good arm slightly above average and a good glove. He had a few errors with the team when he was given a chance to play but he did a good job defensively for richmond(i think).
If we don’t trade Kelly for Ludwick which I believe is purely a rumor and won’t happen, the Braves will have 30-35 million to spend. I’d sign Dempster(31 age) who is cheaper than Lowe, Aj Burnett, Ben Sheets, and CC, and is not injury prone. I saw he wants 5yrs 75 million(15 per season), Furcal 3 yrs 26 million( 8.7mil/per year (guess), and Pat Burrel 4 yrs 50 million(12.5mil/ per season).
If that happened great, but in the cases of Furcal and Burrell, I believe they may be asking more.
By Lew
November 6, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this
Anders-She went to Vancouver, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Houston and central Pennsylvania (Franklin and Marshall, Dickinson) the last two weeks and is beat. Besides-she’s off tomorrow and didn’t even tell the Law School she’s back yet. Life is good. Three day weekend.
By Nate
November 6, 2008 6:01 PM | Link to this
The Padres need pitching. i can’t imagine them not wanting Morton in the deal.
By MGL
November 6, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this
Playing second base, Kelly Johnson averaged an error every 88 innings played. Martin Prado averaged an error every 47 innings played. That is almost twice KJ’s error rate.
Having watched most of the games, I don’t see anyway that Prado is better defensively that KJ. And he has less power.
By flange1
November 6, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this
Evening All,
The rumors on the Peavy front keep evolving! It sounds like (in combining rumors) that the deal could be Escobar, Gorkys and Locke for Peavy.
I am ok with that although I really hate to trade Yunel.
Gotta think that FW is considering bring back Rent for a year. Let him start and bring in Lilli or Infante at the end of the game for “defense”.
I know that the Braves want to keep KJ if Yunel is gone, but I wonder if they could trade KJ for an outfield bat and use Prado, Infante and Lilli as backups and the starter at 2B.
If the org. thinks Lilli can play SS in the ML, keep him as a backup and late innings guy, give him some starts at 2B and let him learn from Rent.
Heck, sign Rent for 2 years and let him be a super sub, PH, spot starter in 2010. He is a great team guy and would help the younger 3 up the middle.
By Tomas
November 6, 2008 6:08 PM | Link to this
4:05pm: Ken Rosenthal has some of the names being offered by the Braves for Peavy. According to Rosenthal, the Braves are offering Yunel Escobar, either Jo-Jo Reyes or Charlie Morton and an unnamed player believed to be a top prospect. Rosenthal does not have any details on the Cubs’ package but notes that it is likely to be “fluid”.
I’m guessing that “top prospect” is Jordan Schafer, Kris Medlen, or Jeff Locke.
By Anders
November 6, 2008 6:10 PM | Link to this
Lew
That’s one he!! of a trip. Been to all but Vancouver which is supposed to gorgeous. Someday hopefully.
Hope you know I was only kidding with ya being a married guy myself.
By Lew
November 6, 2008 6:12 PM | Link to this
Tomas-Dude, Furcal has gone on record asking for a four year deal. He just missed almost an entire season with severe back problems (ask Kotsay how fast one get’s over back problems). His fielding in the playoffs sucked. SUCKED, Dude. He is just coming off of a $13 mil per year contract. You’re not going to get him for $8.7 mil per. Why exactly would you want to? Because he USED TO BE Good?
Pat Burrell is just coming off of a season where he hit 33 Home Runs for the World Championship team, who want him back. He made $14,325,000 in 08. Not too sure how you figure him to make $2 mil less a year as a Free Agent.
By Lew
November 6, 2008 6:18 PM | Link to this
Anders-Yes, I’m aware you were joking. No problem. I took absolutely no offense.
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 6, 2008 6:19 PM | Link to this
Doc Holliday…I am mostly in aggreeance with you (and i know that isnt a word) that Prado isn’t far off Kelly…But it seems most on the blog aren’t. I think the point really is that the drop-off is not significant enough to worry about it.
Ok, how’s 4 years at say $30 million for Penny, that has gotta be a steal!
By Marty
November 6, 2008 6:20 PM | Link to this
Lew - Is your wife in law school, or does she work at one?
Others - I really liked Renteria, but I think we’d be taking a risk bringing him back in light of his very poor performance last season (.699 OPS), and I think he would still be relatively expensive. Also, his range has been deteriorating for several years and already was not good while he was here. It seems to me that there must be better options out there if we have to replace Yunel.
By A.S.
November 6, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this
Ken Rosenthal has some of the names being offered by the Braves for Peavy. According to Rosenthal, the Braves are offering Yunel Escobar, either Jo-Jo Reyes or Charlie Morton and an unnamed player believed to be a top prospect. Rosenthal does not have any details on the Cubs’ package but notes that it is likely to be “fluid”
I really like this from a Braves persective. My guess is the prospect isn’t Hanson. But I would bet its prob Gorkys.
By Tomas
November 6, 2008 6:27 PM | Link to this
Lew,
I was just saying, what i’d offer them. And I certainly think they wan’t more money. Phillies offered Burrell 2 yrs 24 million.
By Lew
November 6, 2008 6:28 PM | Link to this
Marty-She’s Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid at the Vermont Law School. She just got back from a trip recruiting potential candidates for the 09 first year class.
By Lew
November 6, 2008 6:33 PM | Link to this
Tomas-Low ball offer. He didn’t take it either, did he?
By N8
November 6, 2008 6:34 PM | Link to this
MGL
“Playing second base, Kelly Johnson averaged an error every 88 innings played. Martin Prado averaged an error every 47 innings played. That is almost twice KJ’s error rate.”
Errors do not tell the whole story. After all, David Wright won a GG in 2007 with 21 errors at 3B, which was the most in the NL.
“Having watched most of the games, I don’t see anyway that Prado is better defensively that KJ. And he has less power.”
Again, I find that hard to believe. It’s not always about errors. I saw Prado get to balls that when he made the play, I said to myself, there is NO WAY that KJ makes that play.
How many turns on DP’s (which KJ has gotten much better at), did they not get the second out? Not to be a smartazz, but errors are not charged on those plays.
KJ has to be one of the WORST 2B in all of baseball at moving to his right (up the middle). He looks like a Bad News Bear, when going to his back-hand. Can’t imagine how horrible he was at SS, with that lack of range up the middle.
Make no mistake. I’m not comparing Prado to Joe Morgan or Roberto Alomar. But if you think that KJ is a better defensive 2B than Prado, I have to seriously question how many games you did actually watch, and if you did watch them, what you might have been looking at.
As for the bat? Sure KJ has more power. Francoeur has more power than Diaz too. Who do YOU think is the better hitter of the two?
Kills me, how much stock people put into “power” vs. contact.
Jeff Blauser had more power than Walt Weiss. But I’d take Walt Weiss over Blauser every day of the week, and twice on Sunday.
That being said, I’m a fan of KJ’s. I like and appreciate his lack of being selfish, and moving to a position he NEVER played at any level, and working his butt off to improve over the off-season. Who knows? Maybe he’s about to peak…both offensively and defensively. Hard to say.
But I surely won’t cry if they trade him. Provided they get what they perceive to be “equal” value at a position where we don’t have any depth.
This Peavy deal has me thinking Tom Petty.
“The waiting is the hardest part….”
By Lew
November 6, 2008 6:43 PM | Link to this
Nathan-Dude, KJ is 13th out of 30 teams in fielding percentage. He doesn’t have range to his right (though he’s getting better), but the Dude is average-not one of the worst. You also have to take into account he’s only played the position for two years.
By McFann O
November 6, 2008 6:50 PM | Link to this
Lew send Lillibridge for extensive sessions with McCann’s Daddy.
Good idea…I’m sure he cann squeeze him in there!
By N8
November 6, 2008 7:00 PM | Link to this
MGL
Earlier I stated:
“David Wright won a GG in 2007 with 21 errors at 3B, which was the most in the NL.”
After I thought about it, that wasn’t the most in the NL. It was the 5th most though (Braun 26, Zimmerman & Cabrerra 23 each, Kouzmanoff 22).
But to use your “per inning” type of analasys, Wright had 21 errors in 1418.1 innings (452 total chances). Which comes out to an error every 67.53 innings (or every 21 chances).
Chipper on the other hand, had 9 errors in 1082.2 innings (310 total chances). Which comes out to an error every 120.29 innings (or every 34 chances).
By your thinking, I’ll assume you think that Chipper deserved the GG in 2007?
Just to keep this rolling, lets look at 2008.
Wright had only 16 errors in 1433.2 innings this year (1 every 89 innings). Definitely an improvement over his GG campaign of 2007, winning his 2nd GG in a row.
However, if we go purely on errors, if I’m Troy Glaus, I’m pretty pizzed off at the voters. Why?
1243.1 innings played and only 7 errors in 2008. Or, one error every 190 innings.
Somebody got hosed.
By Steve from OH
November 6, 2008 7:02 PM | Link to this
Escobar, Gorkys, and a pitcher (Locke/JoJo) for Peavy? Yes please. Really hate to give up Esco, but to me that looks more like a staight-up swap, in which case we would be the winners for sure. I would hate to give up either Schafer or Morton in that package. That’s probably what the hold up is. I’ll bet they’re willing to take Gorkys (I would hope that FW has made it clear that Schafer is untouchabe; if he has, I’m sure Gorkys is next on their list), but Frank is trying to sell them on JoJo over Morton. If I’m FW, there is no way that I give up Schafer and Escobar in the same package.
Looks like a good package structure to me: Esco, Gorkys, and a pitcher. Scoots, how do you feel about that?
By Jim
November 6, 2008 7:03 PM | Link to this
I don’t think the Padres would get a better offer than Escobar, Morton, and Medlen PERIOD from anyone else. Trading four or more good players/prospects for one star is too much.
I don’t know that dealing those 3 players for Peavy makes the Braves better.
We don’t have an adequate replacement for Escobar, and Morton could develop into a consistent 10-12 game winner at the back of the rotation. He was advertised as throwing in the mid-90’s but, especially late in the year, he was topping out at 91-92. He showed good movement on his fastball and change when he first arrived, but not the same movement later. If the injury reduced his effectiveness and he is fully recovered, he might be a much better pitcher than the one we saw at the end of the season. Renteria can’t play adequate shortstop anymore. He has very limited range and a very weak arm. Furcal’s back obviously prevented him from bending down far enough to get balls hit to his right or left during the NLDS. A back injury is a big red flag for a high stess position like SS. I don’t want to try to relive a past that does not reflect present realities with either of these two possible FAs.
Hudson, Haren, Sabathia, Santana, and even Haren were all traded for much less than the 3-player offer mentioned above. We don’t have to go higher, and maybe not even as high.
By Doc Holliday
November 6, 2008 7:07 PM | Link to this
OK………Im agree with all of you that say Yunel has a better arm……. there is not a way to discuss that……..not on this planet. Same goes for range. But dont forget that we have to pay a price to get a great pitcher, and if losing range and arm from the SS position should be the price……so be it. We cant say what will happen if Prado is inserted as the regular SS, that would be speculating, nothing more. He is a complete steady player.
Just think…………
If all of you had 2 options:
Keeping Yunel and letting Peavy slip away………therefore no ace on our staff (at least as we speak).
Letting Yunel go, getting Peavy and letting Prado fill in for Yunel…………
What would you do?
Personally…………I would take pitching. Just remember………Yunel had lots of shoulder problems last year………dont forget about that. But that aint the reason of my choice, that is only something to add to it. I know Peavy also had some bugs.
To me, as to all of you, would be harder to replace than KJ, but dont forget……….we would have an elite pitcher……… Yunel is not an elite SS, he might get there, but he is not there and we dont know if he will ever be.
By Dan in NJ
November 6, 2008 7:19 PM | Link to this
hey DOB,
What would Escobars value on a free agent market be? Around $8 mil? more? So If the braves add it all up. Wouldn’t it be too much to obtain Peavy? Peavys $16mil plus Esco’s $8mil plus others that would be included.
Now, that said. wouldn’t the Braves be better off going after CC or AJ.B as free agents? while keeping esco and others. While going after Greinke with Frenchy as the centerpiece instead of Escobar. Just curious, Thanks in advance.
BTW…Don’t get me wrong I’d love Peavy as well, but seems to be far too expensive in the long run.
By flange1
November 6, 2008 7:21 PM | Link to this
Doc Holliday,
Dude, Prado is NOT a shortstop! Get it? He has played all of 3 games in the majors there and VERY few games in the minors.
Sorry HE IS NOT A SHORTSTOP!
He came up playing 2B and played 1B for THE FIRST TIME this year.
By Bruce's Pearl
November 6, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this
IMO if the Braves had offered Escobar,Schafer,and either Morton or Reyes it would have been a done deal by now.If you are Towers and you trade your Cy Young winning ace in the prime of his career you not only better get talent but they need to be able to market them to the fan base.Escobar would probably be very popular in the hispanic market,while Jo Jo is a San Diego native. The third will be a younger prospect that he can say has a high ceiling.I believe when it is all said and done if the Braves acquire Peavy it will be for Escobar,Reyes,and Jeff Locke.But thats only my opinion.What do you think Lew?
By bobby
November 6, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this
COULD THE BRAVES PULL A FAST ONE AND THROW EITHER KOTCHMAN OR THORMAN IN THE TRADE AND ASK FOR ADRIAN GONZALEZ? THE BRAVES HAVE PLENTY OF OUTFIELD HELP ITS THE FIRSTBASE POSITION THAT NEEDS WORK. IF YOU PUT ADRIAN BEHING CHIPPER AND IN FRONT OF MCCANN THEN YOU GOT A POWERFUL LINEUP THAT COULD MATCH THE BRAVES OF THE 90S.
By THB
November 6, 2008 7:25 PM | Link to this
If Escobar goes, Lillibridge shouldn’t really be counted on…the best available FA shortstop is Furcal, hands down. If we could get him for 3 years, 36 million, I’m all for it. But my guess is he’s looking more towards 4 years and 52 million.
I’d be excited to get Peavy for Escobar, Gorkys, Locke, and Reyes. I’d even substitute Reyes for Morton and throw in B.Jones. Point is, we’d be getting a true ace and only needing to fill SS.
By Doc Holliday
November 6, 2008 7:29 PM | Link to this
flange1
KJ was not a 2B
Chipper was not a LF
get it?
By Salty Dawg
November 6, 2008 7:30 PM | Link to this
Keeping Yunel and letting Peavy slip away………therefore no ace on our staff (at least as we speak).
One ace does not a championship team make, or something like that. I am all for pursuing Peavy, but not to the extent of, as someone so eloquently posted early, “robbing Peter to pay Paul.” San Diego should stand as a prime example that pitching alone does not guarantee success. Part of being a great pitcher is pitching into your defense and keeping the other team down enough that your offense has a chance to win the game. Well, if you don’t have the defense behind you and you don’t have the offense scoring runs, it’s real damn hard to win a game. Think about all of the great pitching performances this year alone that were tainted because the pitcher still lost. You can’t win a game 0-0 and an ace isn’t an ace for long if he has a hole at short or second. All of that to say that Esco is, imho, an above average short with potential to be a perennial allstar one he settles in. If he must be traded then he must, but it shouldn’t be taken lightly that in doing so the Braves have strengthened the rotation and weakened other aspects of the team. Plus, now you have Peavy - what else? Peavy can only pitch once every 5 days. What happens the other 4?
By nitram odarp
November 6, 2008 7:33 PM | Link to this
If Yunel gets traded Would someone please point out what good would come from renting a SS for a year… who exactly are they stop gapping for? Lilbridge?Prado? If that the case it may be a few more years before we taste the post season again
By braves fan 4 life
November 6, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this
For evryone here hammering out esco and 2-3 other prospects/players for peavy. Then flipping kj to st. louis for ludwick are assuming that the braves are prepared to lose both their starting middle infielders in the same offseason. Frank wren and DOB already said this is not the case. I believe the holdup with the peavey trade is that frenk wren is looking for ways to get peavy without giving up escobar, hanson, or heyward. If he can do this then he can trade kj for ludwick. He wont trade both. Well thats just my opinion.
By FaninFaytown
November 6, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this
8 mil on the free agent for escobar? dude he just finished his first year as a starter in the majors? not only that but how do you figure that getting someone who is already signed for 4 years at a price thats below the current market going to be more expensive than signing a free agent pitcher with the ungodly inflation on those signings?
By McFann O
November 6, 2008 7:36 PM | Link to this
Neight re 3B Gold Glove: Somebody got hosed.
Not only at third base, but Kendall shoulda won for catcher, and Hunter Pence shoulda won for outfielder.
But I ranted about that earlier.
By AdirondackDave
November 6, 2008 7:36 PM | Link to this
Bobby - I suppose they would be nuts to put Gonzalez in a trade with Peavy… but there have been plenty of dumb moves made over the years.
By flange1
November 6, 2008 7:36 PM | Link to this
DOC,
KJ is still not a 2b and Chipper was not an OF.
Yeah, I get it.
Prado is an average 2B and would be a WAY below average SS
Get that????
By Interested Observer
November 6, 2008 7:43 PM | Link to this
From ESPN.com
Padres GM acknowledges ace Peavy likely to be traded within month
Associated Press
DANA POINT, Calif. — Jake Peavy probably will be traded by the San Diego Padres before the winter meetings next month.
After spending four days at the annual general managers’ meetings, Padres GM Kevin Towers said it is unlikely the 2007 NL Cy Young Award winner will remain with San Diego, which signed him out of high school in 1999.
“The train’s kind of left the station,” Towers said Thursday.
Guaranteed $63 million under a contract that runs through 2012, Peavy is relatively inexpensive when compared with what CC Sabathia is likely to get on the free-agent market. The right-hander also has a no-trade clause, so he can determine where he winds up.
“We’re not in control of the speed or the train,” Peavy’s agent, Barry Axelrod, said in a telephone interview. “The only thing we’ve got is a break.”
Peavy’s initial list of teams San Diego should concentrate on included Atlanta, the Chicago Cubs, Houston, the Los Angeles Dodgers and St. Louis. The Braves, Cubs and Dodgers appear to be the most likely candidates for a trade.
Towers, cutting payroll following a last-place finish, anticipates a trade before the winter meetings open in Las Vegas on Dec. 8. Given the paucity of pitching, the 27-year-old is highly prized. He was 10-11 with a 2.85 ERA in 27 starts last season.
“We’re not to the point where we’ve agreed on who the players are coming back. We just have an idea of who’s available to us and who’s not,” Towers said. “Now it’s just a matter of looking at three priority teams that are involved and trying to figure out what our optimum deal is. Some of them involve third teams and potentially fourth teams, so it becomes a little more complicated.”
At last year’s GM meetings, Philadelphia acquired closer Brad Lidge and infielder Eric Bruntlett from Houston for outfielder Michael Bourn, pitcher Geoff Geary and minor league third baseman Mike Costanzo, a deal that helped the Phillies win the World Series for the first time since 1980. Florida held trade talks on third baseman Miguel Cabrera, who was dealt to Detroit along with Dontrelle Willis at the winter meetings.
There were no trades at this year’s gathering, with talks more cautious. That’s because this year’s free-agent class includes stars such as Sabathia, Manny Ramirez, Mark Teixeira and Francisco Rodriguez.
“The premium guys this year seem to be better than last year,” said Mets GM Omar Minaya, whose biggest move last offseason was to acquire ace pitcher Johan Santana from Minnesota. “You’d rather do a free-agent deal than a trade, if possible, because with a free agent you don’t have to give up prospects. And the way it is now, everybody is trying to keep their prospects.”
Minaya needs a closer because Billy Wagner is expected to miss all of next season following elbow surgery. K-Rod and Brian Fuentes are the top two among free agents, and both will sign eight-figure contracts. Free agents can start negotiating money with all teams starting Nov. 14.
Dodgers manager Ned Colletti made the biggest news of the meetings when he said Los Angeles offered Ramirez a deal with the second-highest average salary in baseball. That would put the mercurial outfielder between Alex Rodriguez ($27.5 million) and Santana ($22.9 million).
Ramirez’s agent, Scott Boras, is known for protracted negotiations. Colletti wouldn’t speculate on whether anything was accomplished at the pricey resort hotel overlooking the Pacific Ocean.
“Groundwork, to me, means that you’re starting to build something that’ll work,” he said. “I never know that until the thing’s built.”
Colorado outfielder Matt Holliday, another Boras client, appeared at the hotel and sparked speculation that the Rockies will try to trade him before he can become a free agent next November.
Brian Cashman, general manager of the high-spending Yankees, is concentrating on starting pitching after a third-place finish that ended his team’s streak of 13 postseason appearances. Sabathia is likely their No. 1 target.
“We generally expressed our interest in the players that we would love to have join us, and then see where that takes us,” Cashman said. “Everybody will express interest back, and some will be more real than others.”
By ncscoots
November 6, 2008 7:47 PM | Link to this
Looks like a good package structure to me: Esco, Gorkys, and a pitcher. Scoots, how do you feel about that?
Somewhere short of hurling, I’ll admit. Whatever the package, it’s gonna hurt, but that one, at least, is short of the sucking chest-wound some here have seemed ready to open up. Better JoJo than Morton, for the pitching spot. All the better if Towers is willing to take a pitcher further away.
Maybe the Nationals will trade for Khalil and offer Guzman up on a platter, who knows? “Hope” is liable to be the best player going at SS, anyway.
By Steve from OH
November 6, 2008 7:47 PM | Link to this
N8:
Neyer has a blog entry on the whole gold glove issue on ESPN.com. Most of it is about McLouth, but there’s a lot of good stuff there.
By Lew
November 6, 2008 8:02 PM | Link to this
Jim-There’s a big difference in the contractual situations of Hudson (at the time), CC and Santana. All three were at contracts’ end and it was necessary to sign them to long term contracts at more than they were making.
Peavy, on the other hand, is locked up for five years at below market rates. That alone would account for an extra player, IMO.
By Steve from OH
November 6, 2008 8:06 PM | Link to this
Tommy Hanson starting tonight for Mesa.
Scoots, I agree that that package doesn’t leave a gaping wound. The Pads get a young, talented controllable SS to build around, along with a young, talented future CF and a good young pitcher to go with it. I think that they need to face the fact that they’re not going to get a Tex-like package from us. Once they do, this deal will get done. I think the latest “Cubs are leading” rumor is a sort of last-ditch attempt to get Wren to cave either on Schafer or a young pitcher they’ve been haggling on.
By Lew
November 6, 2008 8:08 PM | Link to this
Scoots-If they do trade Yunel, would you be in favor of signing Renteria for a year or two, or do you (like so many others) think last season is indicative that he is no longer any good?
Personally, I find it hard to believe he had a career year in 07 and all of a sudden lost it all in 08. I think he is just not an AL player-doesn’t know the pitchers as well and just lacks a comfort zone. He’s not got great range or a great arm, but is steady and doesn’t make lots of errors (at least in the NL). He won’t make spectacular plays, but will make the routine ones.
By country boy
November 6, 2008 8:12 PM | Link to this
DOB -
This is a concerning and disappointing blog. Instead of all the conjecture about who may or may not be traded for Peavy shouldn’t you devote a little time and print space to WHY the Padres are willing to trade Peavy??? I have not read a resonable explaination. According to your blogs this pitcher is a Cy Young winner, in the prime of his career and has a very reasonable contract. So why is SD shopping him so actively for unproven prospects? If he is signed for 5 yrs he should figure significantly in their rebuilding plans. Would a little research kill you ….. instead we get “if he was hurt he was a hell of a pitcher when he was hurt”. According to Elias his ERA was up last season by .9 when comparing up to the All Star Break to after the All Star break. He also had 20 less strikeouts after the break. Instead of giving us details on meals, pretty waitresses and 40 year old song lyrics why don’t you research and tell us objectively if his arm is failing him. I am sure a journalist in your position would have tapes/people in baseball ect. to provide information on things like his control and velocity the last part of the year. I am not asking you for DNA samples or a cavity search on this pitcher but just seems to me you are blogging very much in favor of trading our young players for this pitcher and I don’t understand SD’s mad rush to rid themselves of him. Something keeps reminding me of Hampton. Hope Wren does his homework - - unlike you.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this
N8 - If your point was that David Wright did not deserve a Gold Glove in 2007 or 2008, that much is pretty obvious to anyone with a brain.
By GamecockBrave
November 6, 2008 8:31 PM | Link to this
Country boy- Peavy’s arm issues are well documented and most the people here are very aware of it. Peavy is on the block because there is a demand for him and the Padres have a need. Their need is to cut payroll. Unloading Peavy allows them to cut payroll, while the demand is there to allow them to get some very good talent in return. He has proven healthy enough and as DOB has noted, he has had MRIs that havent revealed any injuries warranting concern. I could not imagine the Braves going after a guy who is oft injured given the recent seasons. That is why they have not been really involved with some of the names that are on the Free agent market this year… thats just my guess but who knows.
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 6, 2008 8:31 PM | Link to this
country boy,
Actually, DOB has blogged as to why the Padres are looking to trade Peavy. Namely, the owner is going through a divorce and has mandated payroll to be slashed…maybe even down to $40 mill. If you do the math, pretty simple really.
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 8:32 PM | Link to this
country boy, Acerbic much?
By McFann O
November 6, 2008 8:32 PM | Link to this
Marty that much is pretty obvious to anyone with a brain.
LOL!
By Original Jon
November 6, 2008 8:40 PM | Link to this
Country Boy Why are the Padres trading Jake Peavy??? Seriously, what rock have you been hiding under? Do a little research before asking questions that have already been answered a million times. Anyways, they are trading them because they need payroll room and they are trying to sell him high.
By Lew
November 6, 2008 8:44 PM | Link to this
Country Boy-Dude, all you’ve done is to prove you really don’t read the blog. These issues have been discussed ad nauseum for three weeks now. I got reamed for a three day period for mentioning being concerned about his arm issues and the Padres desire to cut payroll (he’s due about $63 mil over those five years) has hardly been a secret.
Don’t get out much, do you? If you’re so concerned about research, it’s obvious you have a computer (unless it’s your parents’ and you’ve been banned for playing GTA ) and the capability lies within you. Feel the force Young Skywalker and Check out the web. Google Jake Peavy and all will be revealed.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 8:47 PM | Link to this
country boy - Perhaps you should have read the prior blog entries. As others have said, Dave answered this days ago.
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 9:12 PM | Link to this
Tommy Hanson’s at it again. Three batters, three strike outs. Damn!
By J.L.
November 6, 2008 9:17 PM | Link to this
For you guys arguing about K.J. & Prado. Using errors as a benchmark is wrong. I would’nt give you a wooden nickle for the offical rullings, how many times have you seen errors called base hits?
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 9:23 PM | Link to this
Well, dang. Hanson gave up a homer. Maybe he’s working on his change-up? Oh well. Now his ERA is a dismal 0.61. We should have traded him when his stock was high. Prospect Schmospect.
By cameron
November 6, 2008 9:26 PM | Link to this
Tommy Hanson Has Struck Out 3, And Given Up A Single and A Homerun and a Walk in 1 and 1/3 innings so far.
By McFann O
November 6, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this
J.L. how many times have you seen errors called base hits?
Ugh…and how many times were base hits called errors? I cann think of a couple. But the one that really got me was that ball that Rollins ran two miles for and he didn’t get it…that was called an “error”, robbing McCann of a hit and an RBI. There were a couple other ones that shoulda been hits, too…like that time against the Nats—
Sorry…I’m going off on a tangent again, aren’t I?
By McFann O
November 6, 2008 9:29 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan—
What?? 0.61?? For cryin’ out loud! Guess we cann trade him now!
; )
By cameron
November 6, 2008 9:31 PM | Link to this
all five outs tommys got has been strikeouts.. damn
By cameron
November 6, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this
6 outs, 6 strikeouts, 2 innings.. WOW
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 9:35 PM | Link to this
Tommy’s 2nd inning of work on gameday is a thing of beauty: Homer, Hit, Walk, Coaching Visit to Mound, Strike Out, Strike Out, Strike Out. I LOVE it! How exciting… (lol, McFann)
By Yars
November 6, 2008 9:46 PM | Link to this
DOB…….don’t know how big of a Cure fan you are, but their new album, ‘4:13 Dream’ isn’t too bad. A bit more upbeat & commercial sounding than their last 4 or 5 albums.
By Couch Tater
November 6, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this
Speaking of Country Boy, Ricky Skaggs will probably be playing the song at Smith’s Olde Bar 11/9.
By McFann O
November 6, 2008 9:50 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan—
Thanks! And thanks for the updates on Hanson (you, too, cameron)!
This guy seems like the real deal…Don’t know if he should be plugged into the ‘09 rotation, but he looks good.
That about wraps it up, here. Night, all!
By McFann O
November 6, 2008 9:56 PM | Link to this
Oh and hey—Cool, the fake me was taken off…not that he was hurting anybody—I mean, all he ever said was “First?”—but identity-theft is a crime…
OK, I’m going. Night, all!……Again!
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 6, 2008 9:59 PM | Link to this
Braves or Cubs? The Cubbies clearly have the edge in pitching.
Rich Hill, Sean Marshall and Jeff Samardzija are all able to step into the Padres rotation right now. The Braves cannot match that.
On the flip side, the Cubs don’t have an infielder like Escobar to offer. but they do have a comparable player to Jordan Schafer in Felix Pie.
If the comparison’s to the Johan Santana trade are accurate, then one must realize that the Mets gave up three pitchers and an outfielder. If the Cubbies were to throw Felix Pie into the mix, they just might end this contest.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 10:00 PM | Link to this
So I’m watching Maryland play Virginia Tech tonight on ESPN, and I have to say — Erin Andrews is still just completely retarded.
By Efrim
November 6, 2008 10:00 PM | Link to this
Mark Bowman has a late article up on MLB.com:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081106&content_id=3668643&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp
Same stuff we have heard, but this is a new one:
There has been previous speculation that Jordan Schafer, the Braves top outfield prospect, might be included in a package for Peavy. But one San Diego source described the Padres interest in Schafer as “lukewarm”.
Good. If they are higher on Gorkys Hernandez, than fine by me. While I don’t think Schafer is a “can’t miss prospect”, I haven’t heard one person say that Gorkys has a brighter future. That isn’t to say he doesn’t have a chance to become a better major leaguer than Schafer, but my preference is to deal the guy that is further away, obviously. We are already going to lose a regular in Escobar, and I am pretty sure many people in the Braves org. think that Schafer can man center field for Atlanta at some point in 2009.
With that, good night.
By Couch Tater
November 6, 2008 10:06 PM | Link to this
My bad. The Bluegrass Band ,Cadillac Sky, who plays on Ricky Skaggs label will be playing at Smith’s 11/9.
By Biff
November 6, 2008 10:07 PM | Link to this
Yunel Escobar, Jordan Schafer, Casey Kotchman for Jake Peavy and Adrian Gonzales. I will get a link up ASAP. This is just in!!!!
By Efrim
November 6, 2008 10:10 PM | Link to this
Coach
Sean Marshall is okay.
Rich Hill is where right now? I heard the guy has lost all confidence. Isn’t he older than Peavy too?
Samardzia isn’t going anywhere. I doubt he has been offered.
I don’t think they have the “high ceiling” pitching the Braves have, even if you take out Hanson, Jurrjens and Teheran.
By Jeff
November 6, 2008 10:11 PM | Link to this
Wow, Thomas “Tommy” Hanson has 9 more K’s through 4 innings tonight.
The only run he’s allowed thus far was a solo HR, and he came back to strike out the player who hit it off him in the 4th, this kid is impressive!
By mbatl
November 6, 2008 10:13 PM | Link to this
Coach,
Rich Hill? Really? After walking 18 in less than 20 IP in the majors, he went to the minors, where at 3 different levels, he walked 44 in 44.7 IP; now, in the AFL he’s walked 13 in 14.1 IP.
I’m sure the Pads are falling all over themselves to get Rich Hill.
And Samardzija has a no trade clause.
But, Sean Marshall is a pretty nice young pitcher. That’s the Cub’s starting point.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 10:14 PM | Link to this
Very funny, Biff. Do you dorks ever get tired of the fake trade news?
By BravesFanInRockies
November 6, 2008 10:16 PM | Link to this
Coach,
Samardzija has a no trade clause in his contract which could be bought out I suppose, but it would cost money. The Cubs are also on the hook for $10MM for him, and only $2MM of that was a signing bonus.
So if the Pads need to save money immediately, they won’t do much in that deal. After 2009, of course, they’d have some flexibility. But if they need to cut costs now because of Moores’ divorce, this trade isn’t much help.
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 10:16 PM | Link to this
Tommy Hanson is through 4 innings now. Nine Strike Outs. Oh, and the guy (Doolittle) who homered off him in the 2nd was promptly mowed down in the 4th.
Strange to learn the Shafer interest is low from SD. Makes me wonder what is the major sticking point. Surely, surely, it’s not still Hanson. I know WE know he’s staying put. Does Towers know? REALLY know? Dave?
By THB
November 6, 2008 10:21 PM | Link to this
Coach-The Cubs don’t have the edge in pitching. Samardzija has a no-trade clause. Rich Hill? He’s almost 30 and he can’t even get out of the minor leagues right now. Sean Marshall is decent and is only 26, but he is only a back of the rotation starter or long reliever. That’s hardly a strong package. The Braves have a lot more to offer in Hanson, Morton, Jurrjens, Medlen, Reyes, Rohrbough, Locke, Teheran, Delgado, Redmond, etc. The Cubs farm system isn’t horrible, but it just isn’t deep like the Braves’ is.
Pie was valued very highly. But right now his stock is at an all time low. He was supposed to be a 5 tool player but was rushed to the majors, and he has performed terribly. His AAA numbers aren’t spectacular since his demotion either. Schafer is of a LOT more value right now, at least.
If the Padres take a package of Marshall, Hill, Pie, and other mid-level prospects, Towers will be getting ripped off.
By country boy
November 6, 2008 10:25 PM | Link to this
Ok - you folks are ganging up on the poor ol’ country boy. No problem. But I have been around long enough to know you don’t trust what owners and general managers say. Divorce … cut payroll… I’m not buying just yet.
By N Nine
November 6, 2008 10:26 PM | Link to this
This is the game G.M. Wren and DOB are watching. Watching Hanson live must be exciting. Especially the way he is owning the batters!
Schafer needs to go to untouchable on Peavy trade. We are weak in OF, no need for that.
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 10:26 PM | Link to this
Tommy Hanson now has 11 Strike Outs through five innings. This is the most fun I’ve had watching Gameday during the offseason.
By cameron
November 6, 2008 10:27 PM | Link to this
Hanson - 5 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 11 SO, 1 HR, 0.48 ERA
Phoenix - 1 Mesa - 0
Bottom 5th
By Jeff
November 6, 2008 10:28 PM | Link to this
OK make that 11 K’s for Hanson through 5 innings now (and still only the one run via that solo HR).
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 10:29 PM | Link to this
Got home about 8:45 p.m. tonight, after an 11:55 a.m. (Pacific Time) flight. Home in time to see The Office and 30 Rock, now catching up on today’s bloggage….
So, are all the folks who were convinced Peavy was going to the Cubs around midnight last night, still convinced? Or has there been another dramatic turn because someone else’s source put another team in the lead?….
(Hey, I’m with most of you — let’s just get this over with, sooner the better. But like I said yesterday, I do think it’ll be done well before the winter meetings.)
Samardzija isn’t going to be traded, in my opinion. I’d be shocked. He’s a budding star there, a fan favorite with Notre Dame background.
By N Nine
November 6, 2008 10:30 PM | Link to this
THB Did you just put Hanson and Jurrjens in same sentence with JoJO?
By Steve from OH
November 6, 2008 10:32 PM | Link to this
Coach, I agree w/ Efrim and mbatl. The Cubs could offer Vitters and Marshall and….? Like Keith Law said, I’m having trouble making an offer from the Cubs’ perspective. They don’t really have too much that SD would want that they would (presumably) want to give up, and I’m not too sure that they would offer Vitters anyway. He’s a darn good prospect.
Rich Hill? People laugh when I suggest JoJo Reyes, so…
Felix Pie? Not really that sure that they would give him up either. I think I remeber reading that they’re planning on having him as the opening day CF starter. I don’t really think they want a full season of F* in CF.
They do have a few (emphasis on a very few) enticing pieces, but an offer of Marshall/Vitters/Pie would be our equivalent of a Morton/Heyward/Schafer(+) offer, which is way outta line. They’d have to offer at least two of them, in all likelihood, becuase their farm isn’t very deep at all. Compound that with the fact that if they do trade any of ‘em, their farm is nonexistant.
I think the Cubs rumor is Towers’ way of trying to get FW to cave, just like the Yankees/LAA rumor a few days ago. There must be one piece that they’re haggling on and Towers wants FW to cave. Personally, I think FW is playing this whole thing very shrewdly, as the price seems to be going down and down (remember Esco/Hanson/Schafer a week or two ago? Now it’s Esco/Reyes/Hernandez). Towers is pretty much forced to trade Peavy, and he’s trying to create a market that really isn’t there.
Disclaimer:
This is my take on the whole thing, and I wouldn’t be surprised in the least if Peavy went to Chicago. I would be disappointed, sure, but it tells me that the price is too high, and I would be glad (in that situation) that FW showed some stones and didn’t cave. I’m rambling, sorry.
Hanson has 11K’s thru five innings.
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 10:38 PM | Link to this
CountryBoy, just scrolled up to your popular 8:12 post.
Glad you finally found the keys to exit your time machine. Were they behind the seat cushion?
By mbatl
November 6, 2008 10:39 PM | Link to this
Matt Young (who I believe was named Miss’s Player of the Year this year) is playing 2B tonight … not the first time in his career, but he hasn’t played much there. hmm…
By THB
November 6, 2008 10:41 PM | Link to this
N Nine-All I was pointing out was our young pitchers who have some value. JoJo doesn’t have much, but he probably has more than Rich Hill does at this point.
By Joe M.
November 6, 2008 10:41 PM | Link to this
So, are all the folks who were convinced Peavy was going to the Cubs around midnight last night, still convinced? Just wondering….
Are you asking that for real or in a sarcastic way? ‘Cause I have no idea if Peavy will be a Brave or Cub in 2009 or what the Cubs are offering.
Some radio station said the trade could happen by Monday. Don’t know about that, but I hope so. Regardless of what happens, I am ready to move on from the Peavy trade talks.
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 10:42 PM | Link to this
Tommy Hanson’s Pitching Line for tonight: 5 IP, 2 Hits, 1 Run, 1 Walk, 11 Strike Outs, ERA 0.48
By BravesFanInRockies
November 6, 2008 10:44 PM | Link to this
Towers is pretty much forced to trade Peavy, and he’s trying to create a market that really isn’t there.Steve
Amen, brother. I think Towers comes out of this looking pretty foolish if the deal is worse than Esco/JoJo/Gorkys. The Pads get a very good SS, an inconsistent starter who might wind up as a AAAA guy, and a CF who’s a year or so away from the majors.
If Gorkys and JoJo don’t pan out, it’s essentially Peavy for Yunel straight up, plus the payroll relief. Yowza.
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 10:48 PM | Link to this
Doc Holliday: Flange1 is right. Prado isn’t a shortstop. Might be a serviceable one, perhaps even above-average, but he would always pale next to Escobar defensively at the position….
Dan, you lost me on that 7:19 post. I read it a few times, still don’t understand your reasoning.
By Lou Vales
November 6, 2008 10:51 PM | Link to this
My oasis in times of trouble!! No substance spoken here. Dow down nearly a 1000 in 2 days, Big 3 about to become a BIG 0, The “Supposedly” crushed Russian Bear making menacing noises, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan all still in play, dashed liquidity, evaporated pensions and life savings, beyond moribund housing market, interest rates soon to be at ZERO with still no effect, hundreds of thousands more jobs still to be lost, greatest financial minds in the World with no obvious answers AND YET I still get to be regaled with the news that arguably the greatest hustler in recorded history, Scott Boras, is going to be “laughing” at a 25 Million dollar a year deal for Manny.
I’m obviously the 3 millionith person to say in just the last month—“He who ignores history is doomed to repeat it”, but I believe some people should brush up on Marie Antoinette’s last words to the hordes outside of Versailles. There might—Just Might—be a time when a preponderance of people say “Enough Is Enough”.
Owners, IF(I know it’s still a BIG IF) they do, you might really be surprised by the backlash coming from people who no longer still see the relavance of watching a guy, who couldn’t find his way out of a phone booth with a team of Navy Seals, being paid over 25 mil to play a game.
David, I know there is little chance of it happening, BUT a year ago who would have dreamed of Lehman Brothers, AIG and the myriad of other on the precipice of collapse? I would say the odds a year ago of baseball fans getting ticked off in a time of severe global meltdown STILL would have not rivaled the odds against the collapse—or near collapse— of so many bastions of American wealth.
Have a good night—AND GOD TRULY BLESS AMERICA!!
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 10:54 PM | Link to this
Cameron, sorry to have doubled up a couple of your posts on the Hanson game. I’m sure you guessed I sent mine before yours showed up on my refresh.
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 11:04 PM | Link to this
Agreed. And I think this is exactly what Towers is trying to avoid. Giving away an asset. That’s what I’ve been saying all week while DOB was extolling how Towers has to trade him and Peavy won’t go but to a couple of towns and the Braves won’t give any decent prospects etc..Anders
One thing we can always count on: When Anders doesn’t think his point is strong enough, or he’s getting frustrated with the way the debate is going, he won’t even hesitate to either significantly exaggerate or, in this case, completely fabricate something and attribute it to me or someone else, figuring no one will call him on it.
Never, not once, did I (or anyone else that I know of) say the Braves “won’t give any decent prospects.” You completely made that up, without shame. Don’t do that anymore, alright pal? It’s unbecoming of you, to lie or fabricate or misrepresent what others say. You, in particularly, do it way too much.
If you’re going to argue that you’re not making it up, please go back to any blog or story I’ve written and find once, anywhere, a line where I said or even hinted the Braves wouldn’t give up “any decent prospects” to get Peavy or make other big trades. We’ll not hold our breath why you don’t go looking for it because you know such a statement doesn’t exist. Fabrication king.
I’ve said repeatedly, again and again and again, that the Braves would not get Peavy without giving up something valuable, and that while they won’t give up their very top prospects (Hanson and Heyward), they might have to give up a couple of others below those “untouchables,” or a talented young player or pitcher (only ones I’ve said are untouchable on the current team are McCann and Jurrjens).
So if you’ve got nothing else to argue, and you feel desperate enough to resort to your old trick of just making stuff up and attributing it to me or others here, I’d advise you just to take a few hours away from the blog to recharge, research, and come up with something fresh. Oh, and preferably truthful.
By N Nine
November 6, 2008 11:04 PM | Link to this
Oh GOD,Lou Vales is here! Time for me to run far far away…
THB, I’m just saying you stated: The Braves have a lot more to offer in …Hanson…Jurrjens….Noone will be “offered” that unless its Albert Pujols!!!
By BravesFanInRockies
November 6, 2008 11:09 PM | Link to this
So Lou,
Are you suggesting Scott Boras hire bodyguards? Should we all stock up on ammo and dry goods? Buy gold?
By Klstreet
November 6, 2008 11:14 PM | Link to this
David O’Brien,
Is there any chance we will be seeing Jermaine Dye back in a Braves uniform next season? If we trade Escobar for Peavy who will the Braves be targeting for the void at SS?
By tlj
November 6, 2008 11:17 PM | Link to this
If Escobar is traded for Peavy, I think Renteria would be a good replacement for one or two years. I’ve read where he is really old and lost of range.
He really did not have a bad year in 2008. Look at his stats.
Age - 32 Avg. 270 OBP - 317 Slg - 382 2B - 22 3B - 2 HR - 10 RBI 55
Errors - 16 Fld Avg - 972
Now compare his stats to the individuals listed below:
Orlando Carbera Age 33 Avg - 281 OBP - 334 SLG - 371 2B - 33 3B -1 HR - 8 RBI - 57 Errors 16 Fld Avg - 972
Jimmy Rollins Age - 29 Avg - 277 OBP - 349 Slg - 437 2B - 38 3B - 9 HR - 11 RBI - 59 Errors - 7 Fld Avg - 988
Derek Jeter Age - 34 Avg - 300 OBP - 363 Slg - 408 2B - 25 3B - 3 HR -11 RBI - 69 Errors - 12 Fld Avg - 979
Escobar Age - 25 Avg - 288 OBP - 366 Slg - 401 2B - 24 3B - 2 HR - 10 RBI - 60 Errors - 16 Fld Avg - 974
His numbers are comparable to the SS mentioned above. I’m not suggesting he is better than any of them. I am suggesting he would be average in the field, a decent bat and a good influence on the younger players.
Let’s face it somebody has to play SS. Between Renteria and Lillbridge, I think SS will be okay, not great but okay. It also allows you to obtain Peavy.
What do you think?
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 11:18 PM | Link to this
Lou, you live in South Florida, right? Do you think the economy will hurt attendance at Marlins games?
Oh, wait … nevermind.
By the way, for a couple of you who were talking about Florida trading Hanley or Uggla couple days ago. I was assured by someone familar with the Marlins’ thinking that they’re not going to trade either of those guys.
By Dru
November 6, 2008 11:21 PM | Link to this
DOB, your response to anders……was…..awesome. I’m not sure I’ve enjoyed reading anything so much in a few weeks, to say the least. Just nice to see you get some fire in your belly, that was entertaining!
By Wayne
November 6, 2008 11:21 PM | Link to this
I see that Scott Bora$ is spinning his web around his clients. He is not in the negotiating stage, but the sharing of information stage.
“Hello Scott, this is the _(fill in the blank). Just wanted to let you know that we easily have $200 million that we can spend over the next 5-6 years for your clients. Could you please get back with us and let us know how much more your going to require, so we can cave into your desires. Thanks, and have a nice day!”
Hate is a strong word, but I sure dislike that guy. He is exactly what is wrong with America. Greed!
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 11:22 PM | Link to this
KIstreet, Dye hasn’t played LF since 1996. He’s a RF. So unless the Braves trade Francoeur or move one of them to LF….
By Tomahawk Trent
November 6, 2008 11:25 PM | Link to this
Dave Was wondering what talks were going on about adding a big bat if there were any? I know there was talk about maybe trying to trade for ludwick but what are the Braves other options if you heard anything? Also, what is the story on Tazawa? I youtube’d him and he reminded me a lot of TIm Hudson. What are your thoughts? Thanks
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 11:27 PM | Link to this
How many shots left in that revolver of yours, DOB?? scrolling up to make sure I didn’t fabricate anything… overly Rough flight?
By P-Town Brave
November 6, 2008 11:31 PM | Link to this
New Developments
Politics makes strange bedfellows and so does Jake Peavy’s no-trade clause, which is why the Padres ace and his agent Thursday were discussing Braves shortstop Yunel Escobar and their preference that he remain with the Braves if Peavy is sent to Atlanta. Escobar is a good ballplayer whom the Padres have gleaned might be theirs as part of a package deal for Peavy. The unusual twist is that because of the no-trade powers given him by the Padres last December, Peavy’s consent is needed for a trade to any of the other 29 clubs. The subject of Escobar came up Thursday morning between Peavy and his agent, Barry Axelrod. Less than 12 hours earlier, Axelrod had met with Padres General Manager Kevin Towers to get an update on trade talks that had taken place the previous three days at the GM meetings in Dana Point. “Escobar’s a pretty good player,” Axelrod said. “To be honest, Jake and I have said, ‘If that kind of trade gets made, who plays short for them?’” The Braves aren’t among the clubs interested in trading for Padres shortstop Khalil Greene, who has drawn trade inquiries from the Orioles, Reds, Tigers and Blue Jays. Towers said he wants pitching for Greene. Escobar is a Braves pitcher’s best friend. When Red Sox analyst Bill James and friends evaluated major leaguers for The Fielding Bible – a publication devoted to defensive analysis – they determined that Escobar’s plus-minus score of plus-21 ranked second among all shortstops last season. Greene, meantime, had a minus-4 score that placed him 24th. A 26-year-old from Cuba, Escobar is a low-salary player with a career .373 on-base percentage. The Padres are trying to boost their OBP, which ranked last in the National League last season. Axelrod said the Padres haven’t asked for approval on a trade. In the event they do, he and Peavy, acting as de facto GMs, are evaluating the capabilities of the Padres’ potential trade partners. One information source for them is fellow ballplayers. Peavy’s friends on the Braves include regulars Chipper Jones, Brian McCann and Jeff Francouer. Peavy doesn’t need anyone to tell him the World Series champion Phillies and big-spending Mets are in Atlanta’s division. “One of the things we will want to look at some point is, ‘Who are you giving up? How much are you weakening your team to make this deal?’” Axelrod said. “If Team X trades three starting pitchers and a starting shortstop to get Jake Peavy, that lessens their chance of being a successful team.” Towers and his staff, meantime, left Dana Point on Thursday as the GM meetings wrapped up. Exploring deals for Peavy, the Padres focused on three clubs that Axelrod said he might OK – the Braves, Cubs and Dodgers. Towers said he also is open to making a trade that would involve an extra club or two. “Trade discussions with Jake have been progressing nicely, although no deal is imminent at this time,” Towers said. In several interviews during the GM meetings, Towers said it wouldn’t surprise him if Peavy chose to stay with the Padres. “He came up with the Padres, and I think he has loyalty to the organization,” Towers said Tuesday. But if a trade is arranged, Peavy’s loyalty could shift to his potential new employer. “That’s why you can’t give a blanket approval to a (potential trade partner) in advance,” said Axelrod, who obtained the no-trade clause as part of a three-year, $52 million extension that both sides said included salary concessions. “We know we can’t control everything,” Axelrod said. “Let’s say it was the Atlanta Braves and the trade didn’t include Escobar. That doesn’t mean they might not trade Escobar the next week.”
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 11:33 PM | Link to this
“watching a guy, who couldn’t find his way out of a phone booth with a team of Navy Seals” - Lou
Lou, with the Seals, he could do it. Agree to disagree.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 11:40 PM | Link to this
tlj Let me distill the information you put out there into useful form for comparison purposes:
Renteria - .699 OPS, 10 HR, 55 RBI, .972 FP O. Cabrera - .705 OPS, 8 HR, 57 RBI, .972 FP Rollins - .786 OPS, 11 HR, 59 RBI, .988 FP Jeter - .771 OPS, 11 HR, 69 RBI, .979 FP Y. Escobar - .767 OPS, 10 HR, 60 RBI, .974 OPS
If your point is that Cabrera also had a bad year, I agree. If your poiont is that Jeter is tremendously overrated, I would agree with that as well. Besides Cabrera, however, all of the other SS on your list had significantly higher OPS, and Rollins and Jeter had significantly better fielding percentages. Also, Cabrera, Rollins, and Jeter all have more speed than Edgar.
Sorry, but Renteria had a relatively bad year in 2008.
By dgd
November 6, 2008 11:45 PM | Link to this
It sure would be amusing (but DEFINITELY NOT ironic) if Escobar and Gorkys were the two main pieces in the trade for Peavy, and we then resigned Renteria to play short. If so, in one year, FW would have traded Renteria for our best young pitcher, JJJ, plus a key piece in the deal for our ace, Peavy, and resigned the very player he gave up. Amazing, if he can pull it off……
By David O'Brien
November 6, 2008 11:46 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan, just don’t like people to claim I said something I didn’t say. Period. Did. Not. Say.
Not an overly rough flight, though 4-1/2 hours across the country in coach in this day and age of no-frills flying is not exactly a pleasure.
By Marty
November 6, 2008 11:47 PM | Link to this
Sorry, meant that Jeter is overpaid.
By Bubdylan
November 6, 2008 11:48 PM | Link to this
Hey, Jake and Axelrod, if the Braves care enough about winning to come knocking on your door, they’ll probably get a shortstop for ya, okay? The move for you is the FIRST one, see. Then they do OTHER ones. Geez, man, no wonder JS hated no-trade clauses.
Everyone’s a control freak.
By Joe M.
November 6, 2008 11:53 PM | Link to this
Barry Axelrod is fast becoming Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf.
By Bobby's Cox
November 6, 2008 11:55 PM | Link to this
Now it’s just a matter of looking at three priority teams that are involved and trying to figure out what our optimum deal is. Some of them involve third teams and potentially fourth teams, so it becomes a little more complicated Kevin Towers
Wow. I’m drooling trying to know what the 3-team and 4-team proposals are.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 6, 2008 11:57 PM | Link to this
Bubdylan (11:48),
Nice.
By Ron in mobile
November 6, 2008 11:58 PM | Link to this
In other news Vanderbilts own Jay Cutler threw for 447 yards tonight.
While party boy Matt Leinart and Vince dont be mean to me Young ride the pine.
Does anyone ever wonder how Mel Kiper can keep work.
Long live the SEC. Where REAL football is played!
By Peter Mariano
November 7, 2008 12:04 AM | Link to this
Hanson had 11 ks in 5 innings tonight in the AFL…gave up a solo hr but that was it…also Heath and Marek threw scorless innings….and Medlin blew the save
By BravesFanInRockies
November 7, 2008 12:04 AM | Link to this
Third and fourth teams? Yeah I’d like to see that, too. Of course the last time that kind of deal happened involving the Braves, we got Hampton. Just saying.
By mitchie-san
November 7, 2008 12:07 AM | Link to this
I swear, this is the first offseason in I dont know how long that there is virtually NO talk about the bullpen…seems weird.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 12:07 AM | Link to this
DOB Feelin’ for you on those long cross country flights. I covered the west out of Greenville SC for a year about 7 years back. 3 trips per month. Killer.
Know what I hate worse, is hotel/resorts where you can’t find a danged soda or snack machine ANYWHERE on the premises, and where you gotta valet your rental. I like going to get my own vehicular unit, and if I want a Diet Dr. Pepper, I don’t like paying $5 for it!
My mamma raised a cheap sumbeach, I guess.
I flew so much that eventually I upgraded almost every flight, now I am a Mediallion Nobody Class. The only sniff I get of First Class is when walking through the cabin.
Being tall, coach class sucks!
By Dan in NJ
November 7, 2008 12:14 AM | Link to this
DOB, ok, lets say the braves trade Esco plus others for Peavy. Now you need to replace Esco with.???..lets say Renteria. How much would Renteria cost? So, what I’m trying to say is that Peavy will cost the Braves $16 mil/per year + the value of Esco(or Renteria) and other propects….right? so the Total would be??? $24 mil? or more to get Peavy after all is said and done. So why not just go after a free agent like CC or Aj.B.?
I mean a SS wont come cheap, so why not keep one at a cheap rate like Escobar? Instead of trading him and other propects AND have to pay Peavy $16mil per year?
Botton line CC would be cheaper after all is said and done.
Hope you understand my point better now. Thanks again in advance.
NOW as for
By FaninFaytown
November 6, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this
8 mil on the free agent for escobar? dude he just finished his first year as a starter in the majors? not only that but how do you figure that getting someone who is already signed for 4 years at a price thats below the current market going to be more expensive than signing a free agent pitcher with the ungodly inflation on those signings?
I was ONLY asking WHAT would his value be AS a FREE AGENT …IF he was on the market. IDIOT. NEVER said he IS a free agent.
Peavy is signed at a good rate. BUT the cost of ESCOBAR PLUS the $16 for Peavy..will exceed a pithers rate like CC.
NOW, mind your own.Being that you can’t get what i’m saying and jump on my a$$. I asked DOB …NOT you.
By Bobby's Cox
November 7, 2008 12:16 AM | Link to this
P-Town Brave
Where did you get that excerpt with those quotes? That would be wonderful if it were true.
And if it is, I’ll say what I said last week: the Braves should play to their strength of Peavy’s no trade clause, and other teams’ weaknesses of lack of prospects. Duh right? Looks as if that is what Wren is doing. Who knows.
And if what Towers says about 3 & 4 team proposals, that just makes this a monkey circus - no point of figuring out what’s going on. We knew this was going to be an entertaining offseason. It hasn’t disappointed early.
By Jeff
November 7, 2008 12:24 AM | Link to this
Peavy is right, trading Esco in a package for him is stupid…
By Jeff
November 7, 2008 12:24 AM | Link to this
Peavy is right, trading Esco in a package for him is stupid…
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 12:27 AM | Link to this
Wayne, I’m Delta Gold Medallion, and that won’t even get you upgraded on almost any morning flight out of Atlanta during the week, or even on some return flights to Atlanta from a place like Orange County on, say, Thursday afternoon in a relatively small (737) jet.
Fortunately, it will get you upgraded on a Saturday flight to Phoenix like the one I’ll be taking in less than 36 hours.
And I hear you on hotels and valet. Like to do self-parking whenever I can, if I have to rent a car. Fortunately, I stay only in downtown areas during the season and don’t have to rent a car much anymore because all the new ballparks are either downtown or a cab or subway ride away.
It’s not like it used to be when you had to rent a car in places like San Francisco (out at Candlestick) and Philly because you couldn’t get a cab outside the ballpark afterward. New park in Philly has a bar downtstairs, so always cabs waiting outside afterward. Not like at the Vet.
Alright, gonna go watch The Shield on DVR.
By KC
November 7, 2008 12:30 AM | Link to this
Lew: I’m not assuming that Smoltz will be back. Not even close.
I simply said that IF (and I know that’s a big “if”) Smoltz makes it back, feels well, is throwing really well, and feels like he could start again… I would give him that opportunity
I realize it’s a longshot, but IF he can be effective in the bullpen, he can be effective as a starter as well… if his arm could hold up to it (and he would be the one that would now that).
We’ll see. I’m not betting any money on Smoltz, but I’m not going to bet against him either.
By uga-brave
November 7, 2008 12:31 AM | Link to this
been reading a lot and seldom posting.
lew has morphed, that long upcoming winter in vermont has given him a brain cloud.
no other explanation for it. LEW great stuff today.
my take on all of this is no take.
if the braves make the deal it will with no doubt come with angst.
there will be guys that will be traded that have value.
what else do you expect?
to get peavy you have to give something up.
peavy, bad throwing motion or not is worth the gamble.
said it before and will say it again, prospects are just that.
hanson is the real deal, he has been eliminated from the conversation.
other then heyward everyone else should be in play.
the braves traded dan meyer and chuck thomas for tim hudson.
chucky t is now a greeter at wal-mart and dan meyer was just picked up on waviers by the fish.
jake peavy puts us in at least the conversation next year.
my worst fear is that wren hugs the CORPORATE line at the end of the hot stove season.
i can hear it, ” at this time we found nothing that we saw that was best for the franchise. we tried to make some deals, but for the forseeable future we thought it was best to stand pat. anything else would not of been in the best interest of the franchise.”
look i have no problem protecting our prospects.
but lately our prospects have been kyle davies, chuck james, mckay THE PIE EATER mcbride, scott thorman, homerunonio ramirez, anthony BRICK HEAD lerew, from a pitching standpoint you gotta agree we are not exactly incubating guys like cole hammels or chad billingsley.
make the deal and let the chips fall where they may.
By mitchie-san
November 7, 2008 1:09 AM | Link to this
DOB I flew 14 hrs nonstop from Tokyo to ATL….and then had to do the same back….That was brutal….
By N Nine
November 7, 2008 1:19 AM | Link to this
Bobby’s Cox and others
That very interesting article that P-Town Brave posted is from the signonsandiego.com by Tom Krasovic.
The article is titled Peavy throws a curveball into padres’ trade talks with Braves
I think this is a sign that Peavy-Yunel deal is very real and approaching a decision soon.
Nothing better than reading the San Diego fans blog. You learn alot and it’s funny at times. Like this lost fan posted: Interesting point rvt55. I imagine the braves know that they’re peavy’s 1st choice and are holding back their top prospects until another team forces their hand to do so. I hope those “smart people” running the pads know that we need 4 good prospects back for peavy especially since none will be household names to the everyday fan. I want at least, the SS-Y. Escobar, SP-Juurjens,SP prospect T. Hanson, and CF prospect J. Heyward
while another posted: Jugglin,The idea that Jake has a violent delivery is not one shared by a select few. He’s carried that “heightened injury risk” tag since he came into the league
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 1:20 AM | Link to this
DOB Hey, if your gone tonight, no worries. I was sitting here enjoying uga’s post and was curious what the skinny is on Chuck James and Anthony Lerew?
I know Chuckie had the shoulder worked on, and I have heard he is out at least thru mid season. Lerew is coming back off TJ surgery. He looked OK in one or two outings a couple years back. Just curious if he could be a potential candidate for the #5?
uga I think I remember you commenting a few days back about preferring to keep Frenchy. Ditto on that one from me. Trade value is low this winter, and could go lower, but he is so young, I hate giving up on a guy that if he could get a John Deere solution to his rectal-cranial inversion, he could be a serviceable RF for another 10 years.
Remembering ‘07, he was one of our best clutch hitters. You just don’t throw that potential out without giving him another shot, do you?
I like the idea of Ryan Ludwick. (don’t give me Ankiel, as he is a Scott Borass client. I cry every time I think of Jair J being a Borass man.
I don’t think Parr is going to be able to cut it. AAAA guy. I suspect Redmond might be in that same category.
Marek seems to be doing well in the AFL. The more I hear of Hanson’s exploits in Arizona, the more I believe he will be in Atlanta in April. Bring him along slow as the #5 man, and live with some of the rookie mistakes he is bound to make.
Also, I prefer Hampton over a healthy Glavine. I think Tommy G is through.
Next year could go strongly either way. Too many X-factors, as someone called them a few days ago.
I will check back in a while, as I don’t think insomnia will leave me alone tonight.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 1:26 AM | Link to this
N Nine We have some similar posters on our blog to that dude in San Diego. Kinda like me wanting Carl Crawford and James Shields for James Parr and Brandon Jones…..
What was the jest of the article? I haven’t had time to read too much the last few days.
By nfieldr
November 7, 2008 1:30 AM | Link to this
DOB:It’s not like it used to be when you had to rent a car in places like San Francisco (out at Candlestick) and Philly because you couldn’t get a cab outside the ballpark afterward. New park in Philly has a bar downtstairs, so always cabs waiting outside afterward. Not like at the Vet.
How about at Chase Field in Phoenix? Car rental required or are there taxis available?
By N Nine
November 7, 2008 1:36 AM | Link to this
Wayne
P-Town’s 11:31 posted the entire article.
Wayne when the agent is specifically using Yunel by the name it tells me Towers has a realistic shot at him.
By uga-brave
November 7, 2008 1:49 AM | Link to this
wayne,
my issues with francoeur have always been with his desire to seek the limelight.
whether that is true or not does not really matter.
no doubt you have to bring him back.
this is a sink or swim season for him.
for the braves as a franchise they have nothing to lose.
he is arb eligible next year. if he has a great season he has value.
REMEMBER the braves traded away adam laroche after a 32 90 rbi year.
i will be shocked if francoeur ever hits 32 dingers.
laroche did that in 470 at bats. golden boy gets close to or more then 600 at bats a year.
By N Nine
November 7, 2008 1:53 AM | Link to this
The Cubs are not the frontrunner in terms of talent to offer, unless the Braves believe they can lowball the Padres. The Cubs don’t have the talent pool that either the Braves or Dodgers have. The question, of course, is what are the respective teams willing to actually offer? Tom Krasovic
By Coach ( Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 7, 2008 2:03 AM | Link to this
There is an old saying that goes something like this:
Don’t cut off your nose to spite your face.
The starting pitching is in shambles (8th worst ranked pitching in the 40 year history of Atlanta Braves baseball).
Then, the entire outfield is up for grabs. Francoeur is being discussed in trade rumors.
And now we are faced with the possibility of trading the Braves best defensive player on the team in Yunel Escobar. Anybody in baseball with half a brain knows and understands just how important the UP THE MIDDLE DEFENSE is when referring to any competitive baseball team.
Up the middle consists of: SS, 2B, CF, and C.
While Kelly Johnson and Martin Prado are marginal defensive players, Escobar is not. His 4.79 Range factor among all short stops with 100 games played in 2008 ranks 3rd among all 30 teams. Escobar is an outstanding glove man and every Braves player, the coaching staff , Bobby Cox and Frank Wren himself will back me up on that fact.
I fully realize what Jake Peavy represents. TOTALLY. But with the loss of Andruw Jones in CF and now having to contemplate downgrading defensively at SS, I have to wonder if Frank Wren is thinking this thing through clearly.
Pitching IS THE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY. I get that. But, right behind the pitching is D-E-F-E-N-S-E. You cannot win without both.
The 2008 Florida Marlins are a near perfect example of this. They slugged 208 HR’s (3rd best in MLB) and finished 84-77 with a team ERA of 4.46. It wasn’t the offense or the pitching that kept them out of the playoffs. It was their 29th ranked defense that killed the Marlins.
When I say the Braves are robbing Peter to pay Paul, I’m not referring to Peter, Paul and Mary. I’m saying they are not improving the overall make up and chemistry of the team. Pitching and defense go hand in hand. One cannot function without the other in the game of baseball.
By N Nine
November 7, 2008 2:04 AM | Link to this
Wayne I also agree that we should bring back Frenchy. It would be our loss to trade for someone with less physical talent.
Does anyone know why Cards are so motivated to trade a 30-something HR man with a low contract? What are his flaws?
By N Nine
November 7, 2008 2:21 AM | Link to this
The starting pitching is in shambles (8th worst ranked pitching in the 40 year history of Atlanta Braves baseball
Coach,Dude you never let go of one point do you? I ripped you for this last night ..again
Did we setup to have JOJO (3-11) to be a key starter?
we didn’t build a rotation with JOJO,Jurrjens,Morton,Campillio,Hampton
we didn’t expect to lose Huddy,Smoltz,Glavine(never on DL), Hampton(well maybe!)
aah why bother explaining.. The 8th worse stat is meaningless to me
By uga-brave
November 7, 2008 2:30 AM | Link to this
ronnie milsaps,
i thought that was a country singer’s name.
gotta take you to task on the bounce back of 30-35 dingers and 110-120 rbi’s.
so the trend has been 29, 19, & 11 in full seasons.
so what makes you think that 30-35 is coming?
maybe the cool toe tap? or the arse out lunge at a breaking ball in the dirt?
or the inability to hit with power to the opposite field.
so tell me ronnie milsaps have you ever broken down the mechanics of a batters swing?
it is like a golf swing, the less the movement the better.
the hands must follow the body. francoeur drops his hands and strides thus eliminating his power.
power is generated by keeping your hands silent and your weight back.
no different then a good golf swing.
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 3:02 AM | Link to this
nfielder: Phoenix is one of the few where renting car has still been necessary in recent years, because most good hotels are 20-30 minutes away. But they’re building a few hotels downtown finally, so that might change. Still, for you most like to stay out in Scottsdale or that area, because you can get such cheap rates at great hotels in summer when Braves are usually out there.
By ccrider
November 7, 2008 3:03 AM | Link to this
Wayne: You seem to be thinking like me, I want the Peavy trade done. But, I’ve been thinking that if the Royals and Dayton Moore, as they have stated, try and sign Zack Greinke to a long term deal and fail, the Braves should make their best offer of remaining Prospects and even Franceour to get him. The trade for Greinke would set us up for starting pitching for years and the ages would be Peavy(27), Greinke(24), Jair(22), Hanson(22) and Hudson the old guy at 34. That rotation would give us time to complete the lineup, bench, and bullpen to make a real run and for the first 3 years be very cost effective. Franceour, Cody Johnson, Morton, Rohrborough, Redmond Might get it done. Replace Franceour with Ibanez, short term, until Heyward is ready, Trade Kelly for Ludwick. CF Schafer, 2B Prado, 3B Chipper, LF Ibanez, RF Ludwick, C McCann, 1B Kotchman, SS Lillibridge/Ibanez. That lineup could afford Lilli’s weak bat and with a rotation of Peavy, Hudson, Grienke, Jurjjens and Hanson we would be set!
By Coach ( Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 7, 2008 3:03 AM | Link to this
N Nine, you couldn’t rip a piece of paper or even get a piece. And I guess 35 years of pitching in Atlanta Braves history since 1966 with better numbers than we saw in 2008 doesn’t mean anything to you either.
Or the fact that the value of Jake Peavy is being completely overstated. Now, put that in your pipe and smoke it.
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 3:07 AM | Link to this
People keep asking here about Chuck, people keep answering, he’s probably out for most of the 2009 season recovering from shoulder surgery.
As for Lerew, his name doesn’t really come up when you ask Braves people about rotation options. But he could be a fallback if they have injuries or if Lerew pitches terrific in spring or something. Provided he’s there, of course.
By Bravestillidie
November 7, 2008 3:18 AM | Link to this
Wow, I went to signonsandiego and I have to say that for all the people that come in so ludicrous here in our blog, I am still thankful that we don’t have that. I read for almost 20 minutes and did not see one decent post in the lot. Let that be a credit to DOB for creating such a great environment for discussion. Even if we do suffer the occasional idiot or miscreant. Poor San Diego, although there were a few posts referring to them as the pAAAdres…..thought that was pretty hilarious. But seriously, poor Padres fans. At least the Nationals fans have a new stadium and Seattle has the money to overpay poor players.
BTID
By Coach ( Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 7, 2008 3:25 AM | Link to this
About Anthony Lerew. I’m surprised that he isn’t pitching in winter ball?
By Wilson
November 7, 2008 3:25 AM | Link to this
N Nine, I believe the Cards are looking to move one of Ankiel or Ludwick because they have Colby Rasmus (could be wrong on that first name, can’t remember) lurking in AAA. Rasmus, the Cards top prospect, is for real and dominated AAA last year. He should have been called up at some point last year, but there was no room for him. The Cards are dealing from a position of strength and trying to upgrade weaknesses at SP, middle IF, and RP.
By N Nine
November 7, 2008 3:30 AM | Link to this
Thx Coach, Your a class act. I’ll remember that. My fault for getting involved……..
By Coach ( Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 7, 2008 3:47 AM | Link to this
I love crunching numbers late at night while watching Sanford and son reruns. At any rate, I decided to compare three rather relevant pitchers based on winning percentage, team wins and losses, 162 game averages and each pitchers total of quality starts.
The results were revealing. Keep in mind, these are full seasons.
Pitcher A averaged out to 15-7 and a .681 career winning percentage. While his team AVG. was 23-11 with 24 quality starts per season from 2004 to 2008.
Pitcher B averaged out to 16-8 and a .655 career winning percentage. While his team AVG. was 21-11 with 21 quality starts per season from 2000 to 2007.
Pitcher C averaged out to 14-10 and a .581 career winning percentage. While his team AVG. was 17-13 with 21 quality starts per season from 2003 to 2008.
A, B, and C were of course, Johan Santana, Tim Hudson and Jake Peavy.
Santana was traded for OF Carlos Gomez, RHP Philip Humber, RHP Deolis Guerra and RHP Kevin Mulvey.
Tim Hudson was traded for RHP Juan Cruz, LHP Dan Meyer and OF Charles Thomas.
Where does that put Jake Peavy in value? Think long and hard about it.
By brent a.
November 7, 2008 6:38 AM | Link to this
Tim Hudson was in the final year of his contract.
Jake Peavy is signed for four more years at a “below market” rate.
Hence, Peavy’s trade value today gets a bump over Hudson’s trade value in December 2004.
By ChopChop
November 7, 2008 7:28 AM | Link to this
DOB, Tim Brown at Yahoo Sports has said that the Braves are comfortable enough that the Jake Peavy deal will get done that they are discussing players to replace those on the current roster who are included in the deal. What options are you aware of if Yunel Escobar is included in the deal? Does any deal involving Escobar immediately kill a deal for Ryan Ludwick or are there other players that the Cardinals are interested in from the Braves? On the thesis that no deal is done until it is announced, what is Atlanta’s Plan B should Peavy be dealt elsewhere? I’ll hang up and listen!
By Marty
November 7, 2008 7:38 AM | Link to this
Coach - Quality starts is a retarded stat, and it’s pretty obvious that winning percentage is going to be affected negatively by playing for a bad team. Try looking at ERAs. If you pick silly stats, like how other people want to keep looking at the ridiculous concoction called “range factor,” you can make anyone look bad.
Regarding “Range Factor” - While I’m on the subject, RF has got to be one of the stupidest stats I’ve ever seen. For those of you who don’t know, “Range Factor” is simply putouts + assists, divided by games played. So, for example, first basemen always have higher RF than other position players, while players for teams with a lot of ground-ball pitchers will invariably have higher RF than teams with predominantly fly-ball pitchers. It is just plain a silly stat, which doesn’t even sound like it presents any useful or meaningful means for comparison or evaluation. I know that so many out there think Bill James is a god, but sometimes there’s a reason that the new metrics he’s come up with didn’t exist before.
By N Nine
November 7, 2008 8:06 AM | Link to this
ChopChop
I’ll hang up and listen! LOL
It feels like Peavy deal will be happening any day.
As for Ryan Ludwick, Cards might be looking elsewhere, such as bigger players like Matt Holiday(if they can extend contract). I hope they do cause Phillies might make a run for him also. Wilson, not 100% sure if I believe that is the true reason they intend to deal him. Sounds to me like a classic sell high. They don’t picture him a 37-HR man, IMO.
By Efrim
November 7, 2008 8:08 AM | Link to this
Jeff Passan says the Cubs are the frontrunners in the Peavy talks:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-peavydeal110608&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
I wonder how long it will take for another writer to say the Braves have the lead? I have a feeling this is only the beginning. Apparently we are offering Yunel Escobar, Jordan Schafer and Charlie Morton. I really don’t like the addition of Schafer. To be honest, I’d go so far as to take Schafer out, add Hernandez and another pitching prospect like Jeff Locke. Adding Schafer along with Escobar seems like a ton better than anything the Cubs have offered.
I am still not seeing a player better than Yunel Escobar being offered from the Cubs. Felix Pie, Sean Marshall and Ronny Cedeno should probably get Towers fired. At least Yunel has start potential. Those three Cubs players are the prospects that didn’t pan out.
I would be shocked if SD took that.
By Steve from OH
November 7, 2008 8:14 AM | Link to this
Marty, I think range factor is meant to be compared across individual postitions rather than across everyone. That makes the stat a litte better. That said, it’s a very “rough” stat and I’m not particularly fond of it, either (but it’s better than fielding%, I guess). The only fielding stat that I put any real stock into is the +/- stat that James and Dewan put out. Sure, it’s not perfect, but it’s the best one out there IMO. Fielding stats in general are just hard to come up with…it’s tough to reduce subjectivity when evaluating fielders. Every play is different. With hitting, it’s much simpler.
By Shaun
November 7, 2008 8:16 AM | Link to this
Marty, I think the idea of Range Factor is that the outs a player is responsible for on defense should be payed attention to; not just how many balls he handled cleanly or number of errors. It’s not that it’s a perfect or great metric, it’s just something to help gloss over some of the flaws in just looking at fielding percentage or number of errors.
Obviously you have to take context into account (things like position and team), but that’s true of basically all statistics.
By N Nine
November 7, 2008 8:22 AM | Link to this
Efrim
I really agree with you there. Sounds like a last ditch effort to get more before they pull trigger! Keep Schafer out of this. We need him for our much hurting OF!
I love how retards(not naming anyone) have nothing else to do middle of night but to calculate meaningless stats like winning percentages on a team that well, hasn’t put together many winning seasons as a team the last decade. To me, Jurrjens W-L was misleading this year. Huddy’s last year record didn’t fully justify his excellent work…
By Shaun
November 7, 2008 8:25 AM | Link to this
Steve, I agree. Fielding is tricky. It’s hard to come up with an objective way to evaluate how a ball is hit and how difficult a play is, etc. Although, there are some folks who do such things with tools that measure trajectory and those sorts of things.
I like Defensive Efficiency as a measure of team defense. It is the rate at which batted balls in the field of play that are turned in to outs. But it’s difficult if not impossible to come up with something similar for individual players.
By tlj
November 7, 2008 8:31 AM | Link to this
Coach- I agree with you that teams win with pitching and defense. Right now we have no pitching. I don’t think we have enough available money to sign two FA pitchers, at least the kind it woulf take to improve our ball club. We have to go the trade route.
You are not comparing apples to apples when you look at what Minnesota got for Santana. If memory serves me correct Santana would have been a FA after the 2008 season and all they would have goten is draft choices. Boston and NY pretty much with drew from the bidding leaving Minnesota to take what it could get.
We can speculate all we want about SD but fact is they don’t have to trade Peavy and it appears the Dodgers and Cubs both would love to have Peavy and SD could move to one of those teams.
I would love to get Peavy without trading Escobar, Hanson, Heyward, Schaffer, Morton, etc. Unfortunately, I don’t think it will happen.
Either we include one or more of the pieces mentioned above or we move to another direction.
By ChopChop
November 7, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this
I read elsewhere that the Padres are high on Jeff Locke. As far as Shafer goes, you can only play three outfielders at a time. The Braves aren’t going to get Peavy without giving up good players.
By Salty
November 7, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this
Interesting analysis mentioned, earlier, about Peavy/his agent assessing the Braves if Escobar isn’t on the team. He would be concerned about who’s behind him defensively, before approving a trade. Hanson is clearly ‘lights out’ these days, and the Braves would dearly love to keep him; however, if Hanson nets Peavy for the Braves, and Escobar stays…do you pull the trigger?
By THE BEAR
November 7, 2008 8:39 AM | Link to this
“DOB,” I live in S. Florida and I can affirm the Marlins will not trade their middle infielders. They signed Hanley Ramirez to a long term contract last year with the stated purpose of building their teams of the future around him. They figure he will also be a major drawing card with the Hispanic community in their new stadium being built in downtown Miami.
As for Uggla (their rule 5 draftee) there is very little chance they will trade him. He carries an adequate glove and man can he hit. His arms look like fence posts, really big for a smallish man.
I seldom post but last year I did post that Jurrjens was the REAL DEAL and he certainly lived up to the hype. I now believe Hanson is in the same category and is likely to show his stuff in Atlanta next year. I would like to see Scheafer (sp?) given a chance in CF although he is not the REAL DEAL just yet.
Francour’s chances of making a career in the majors is slight unless he can undergo an almost complete do over in his attitude while in the batter’s box. He also has no excuse for letting his defense fall off so much in 08.
I can still see Kelly Johnson playing left field and hitting a ton next year. He improved dramatically at the tail end of 08 and he credits his improvement with an adjustment in his stance. I think he may well be a very good major league hitter of the future. And he already has a background playing OF. I can see him in Left and Prado at 2B. I can think of a lot of things worse than that.
I’d like to see Peavy in Atlanta but I am concerned about who will replace Escobar. But I am sure they have a replacement in mind.
A few years back I lived in Taiwan for five years and maintained a home in Florida. Once I decided to fly straight through without a layover. I went from Taipei to Tokyo to Seattle to Detroit to W. Palm Beach. It took 26 hours. I NEVER DID THAT AGAIN.
By RC
November 7, 2008 8:40 AM | Link to this
Baseball Prospectus is set to release their list of the Braves top 11 prospects today. Any guesses? Mine are below:
Teheran is the obvious ommission, but people seem to be wary of ranking him due to his age. We’ll see if Kevin Goldstein makes the same choice.
By mitchie-san
November 7, 2008 8:47 AM | Link to this
THE BEAR That has my flight beat….
By Drew
November 7, 2008 8:52 AM | Link to this
DOB
Isn’t it interesting that the Braves “sold the farm” two years ago for Tex and we already have one of the most coveted farm systems in the big leagues? Kudos to our scouts & coaches.
Ballers.
By Couch Tater
November 7, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this
Steve,Shaun So, what’s the knock on Infante at ss? (If, Escobar is traded) His numbers were comparable to Kosay last year. Not great, but servicable. Do you guys think, he could perform everyday and save the $ for a bigger outfield bat?
By P-Town Brave
November 7, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this
Guys
I heard the Pads aren’t high on Schafer so you can take that idea and throw it out…it’ll be Gorkys… I also hear that for whatever reason they like JoJo over Charlie…so thats why you’ve heard the Yunel, JoJo, and Gorkys trade reference… I think its either being hung up over an extra player being involved (i.e Locke) or it seriously has something to do w/ Peavy’s comments and now the Braves are questioning whether Escobar should be involved and whether they can put together a significant package w/o him…Me, I’m not sure they can…
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 7, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this
Coach Tater…I like your style; I like your moves. I, for one, would like seeing Infante batting four times a game.
By Steve from OH
November 7, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this
Couch Tater:
His Francoerian OBP (.301 career) and low SLG (.391 career). Had a slightly above average season (.265 EqA) last year, but I wouldn’t be comfortable giving him 600 PA. And his fielding is certainly not at the level of Lillibridge’s, so…he’s a utility guy for me.
By JasonInFL
November 7, 2008 9:22 AM | Link to this
It will be interesting to see what Plan B is for the Braves if they don’t land Peavy. I highly doubt they pay the asking price for AJ, Lowe, and obviously not CC. Interesting times!!
By Efrim
November 7, 2008 9:22 AM | Link to this
P-Town Brave
So now Peavy doesn’t want to go to the Braves if Escobar is included? Is this like Kobe Bryant rejecting a trade to Chicago because Luol Deng was included in the deal?
Not sure what to say about that. Where did you hear that rumor?
By Rob
November 7, 2008 9:24 AM | Link to this
Has anyone heard of any interest for Edwin Jackson. He would be both young and affordable, and should prosper in the N.L
By glove51
November 7, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this
DOB,
If you haven’t been there before, try Frank and Lupe’s in Scottsdale, Tex-Mex.
By Steve from OH
November 7, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
I wouldn’t throw a fit if Infante was the starter, but I’d rather give Lillibridge a go. I think he’s certainly capable (if that is the right word, lol) of matching Infante’s career .692 OPS with a better glove. Wouldn’t count on Lilly to have a great season, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that he’d be much worse than Infante. His glove puts him over the top for me in this case.
By Efrim
November 7, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this
I really doubt the Braves would give the SS job to Infante if they dealt Escobar. I see another trade or a free agent signing.
By Dadgum
November 7, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this
As I post only sporadically these days and usually only a few times a day when I do I can’t rebutt or continue a string of responses. One thing I would like to put to rest is the Prado thing. From what I am gathering of late many among the denizens would like to keep Prado as a bench player. Now Prado is a bench player only? Super utility guy? Why? People keep bringing up errors to support the notion that KJ is a better 2nd baseman than Prado.
Any thought ever been given to what Prado could do at 2nd when he is the starter? Of course he won’t win any Gold Gloves nor will Johnson. Quit worrying about errors and start thinking about range and the number of outs Prado will generate over Johnson. Folks to say that Johnson (a converted outfielder) is better than Prado (a natural infielder) is, well, just flat ignorant.
Playing Johnson at 2nd was a desperate move by the Braves to fill in the hole left by the deteriorating Marcus Giles. Obviously they wanted Johnson’s bat in the lineup and with LF already being platooned it was an opening for the Johnson experiment. The dynamics have now changed on the Braves’ team. KJ did an admirable job but I really believe the Braves have other plans for him now that they know Prado can be their answer at 2nd.
The plans for KJ you ask? Obviously trade material would be one plan but I have another idea that I floated somewhat earlier. Since Prado will be playing 2nd in my scenario, why not put KJ in LF. You keep his bat which they are looking for at that position and he has played the outfield. The question begs though why did they move him out of LF to begin with if he would be a good fit there?
Therefore, I think KJ is most likely gone. Unfortunately Escobar is pretty much out the door as we know. The Braves will bring in a proven veteran to play SS of that I have no doubt. Can they sign Furcal? Don’t know, depends on if they have to pay greatly to get the LF player they need. If they can move KJ to LF they can probably get Furcal if not they most likely will bring back Renteria. The Braves already have Infante and Lillibridge as utility guys to back up the infield next year while they mature more as players. Also I don’t see Lillibridge or Infante traded.
My stance is that unless the Braves have plans to put KJ in LF he will be traded and Prado will be the heavy odds on favorite to man 2nd next year. Be interesting to see how it all plays out.
Musically, someone earlier listed 5 worst concerts. Hard to say there. I say it was any band on any given night. However, I have seen Elton John maybe 10 times including John Paul Jones arena at UVA last month. Not once has Elton ever given less than a stellar performance since I have seen him dating back 35 years. The man is a rock icon of the absolute highest order and a Braves fan to boot.
Rock on……….remembering Reggie Dwight.
By Eware
November 7, 2008 9:34 AM | Link to this
I think this rumor about Peavy vetoing a trade to Atlanta if Escobar will not be at shortstop is ridiculous. Like the Braves are just going to put some high school junior varsity softball shortstop out there. Give me a break. The Braves are a major league organization, they know how important a good defensive shortstop is.
Hooey. I hope dude got a lot of web hits for his article, cause that was its whole intention.
By Couch Tater
November 7, 2008 9:40 AM | Link to this
O.K. Steve, but (keeping in mind I’m a casual fan) It seems to me Infante had more “clutch” at-bats last year. Would Lil’bridge have those defensive numbers if he played ss,lf,3rd and 2nd last year as Infante did? Maybe, Glen Hubbard can work with Infante on the defense. lol.
By Efrim
November 7, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this
Here is the link about Peavy’s agent talking about Escobar being included in the deal:
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2008/nov/06/padres-peavy-throws-curveball/?padres
By richbrave
November 7, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this
The LiLBRIDGE had quite a few fielding errors here in RICHMOND last season. But I’m still a believer in that arm and those feet. His bat is still not ML ready and our ‘09 line-up simply cannot rely on another doughnut hole. After all we’ve got FRANCOUER which we’re hiding in the #8 slot. We need a spectacular #2 behind ESCOBAR and a four or five depending on the opposition in CF. If ESCO’s gone why get RENTERIA.? Can PRADO play second and bat lead-off effectively.? I don’t think so at this point. Which leaves KJ in left field with LUDWICK in center. Oops, KJ’s gone with the advent of a CARDINAL. Which raises another question. Does PEAVY want to play for a team with such an unsettled line-up.? Have to always win 1-0. Probably not. Just can’t give up both. I’m not sure these two deals get done unless you gut the farm.
By N Nine
November 7, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this
I also doubt the Braves handing Infante the starter role. He does have a very important role, Chipper Jones’ backup.
Gorky is wanted more than Schafer? I guess you could say he’s got the higher ceiling. Expensive transaction. Nice two have two quality young outfielders.
Efrim That article got was mentioned last night. DOB any takes on that article? I’m not really too worried about it. Baseball nation view Braves as a competitive team each year.
By RC
November 7, 2008 9:48 AM | Link to this
While I have no doubt the Cubs are serious players in the Peavy situation, I think all of this talk about them “taking the lead” is being propogated by SD to see if Wren can be tricked into bidding against himself. I hope Wren holds tough and calls them on their bluff.
By N Nine
November 7, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this
Report: ‘Zero chance’ that MLB will accept Cuban’s Cubs bid
Does that effect the Peavy outcome at all?
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 7, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this
Dadgum, The Braves coaching staff have said on numerous occasions that Kelly Johnson is a 2B and they have no intention whatsoever of moving him back to LF. I agree with you, it makes sense to me to put him back in the outfield, but I guess that they have put so much into turning him into a 2B that moving him would be a waste.
Also Frank Wren as said Yunel and Kelly ARE NOT both going to be moved this offseason. I suppose you could think he is just saying that for some strategic reason, but I can’t figure why lying about that would gain anything for him.
Bottom Line: Kelly Johnson is a 2B and if Yunel Escobar is moved Kelly Johnson will not be (and vice versa).
By JDawg
November 7, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this
DOB, All of the talk is understandably on Peavy because so much else depends on what happens first with him… but who do you think are some REAL possibilities free agent/trade wise for that 2nd starter that Frank Wren said he would be acquiring this winter???
By i cant take it anymore
November 7, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this
David…your response to anders was perfect. thank you. it was right on time,man.
By Bluestreak
November 7, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
I’m getting to the point that the Braves should just pull back and call the Padres’ bluff. Make them an offer that’s just a little better than the Cubs and give them the “Take it or Leave it” stance.
That offer should not include Schafer, Escobar, Heyward or Hanson. We could make them an offer of KJ, JoJo, Brandon Jones and either one or two additional players. This should be more value than the currently rumored offers from the Cubs. Not sure if this would preclude us from making a move for Ludwig or not, but there are other OF out there that can hit for some pop.
If this offer isn’t good enough for them, I say we move on. We can make a trade for another starter or an better OF than Ludwig and sign a couple of pitchers.
I know SF has said Cain’s not available, but that could just be positioning. I think Penny is better than last year showed, and he doesn’t have to be our #1.
I’m just getting a little tired of all the “issues” that Axelrod is starting to have with what we are offering to get Peavy here. (I don’t necessarily believe that Peavy is having the issue, but maybe he is.)
Anybody else tired of this process, or am I just too impatient?
By Preacherman
November 7, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
DOB, all of the talk is understandably about Peavy at this point because so much else depends on what happens with him, but with so many other teams looking for starting pitching who do you see as REAL possibilities free agent/trade that the braves would consider to be that 2nd pitcher Frank Wren has said he would acquire??
By Preacherman
November 7, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this
DOB, all of the talk is understandably about Peavy at this point because so much else depends on what happens with him, but with so many other teams looking for starting pitching who do you see as REAL possibilities free agent/trade that the braves would consider to be that 2nd pitcher Frank Wren has said he would acquire??
By DAP
November 7, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this
DOB Dye hasn’t played LF since 1996. He’s a RF. So unless the Braves trade Francoeur or move one of them to LF
i dont see that being a problem, do you? if you can play right field, LF should come pretty naturally, right?
By Bryan from Kansas ( Go KU )
November 7, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this
David,
I know this has probably been discussed, but if the Padres wont do the deal without Hanson, why doesnt Frank tell Kevin Towers they will include Hanson if the Padres include Adrian Gonzalez?
By NickC
November 7, 2008 10:00 AM | Link to this
RC, Teheran was included last year, so I assume he will be again.
By Anders
November 7, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this
DOB
From your 11:04 post last night:
Peavy won’t go but to a couple of towns and the Braves won’t give any decent prospects etc..Anders
I’ve said repeatedly, again and again and again, that the Braves would not get Peavy without giving up something valuable, and that while they won’t give up their very top prospects (Hanson and Heyward), they might have to give up a couple of others below those “untouchables,” or a talented young player or pitcher (only ones I’ve said are untouchable on the current team are McCann and Jurrjens).
I’ve written a dozens of posts on here this week and I write “decent prospects” in one rather than “top Prospects” and you decide to attack me and make a federal case out of this?
If I misquoted you, fine, say so (if you like) as this is a public space. But calling me a liar is out of line, not to mention insulting. I have never delibrately written falsehoods on here - ever! Saying I repeatedly do is irresponsible of someone in your position. And you accuse me of having no shame?
How about I chalk my “decent Prospect” quote up to “oops, sorry folks I need more coffee” that you like to spew when you write something off the mark. Or is that only reserved for the blogmaster?
I fully expect to see your moral outrage next time one of your loyal denizens misquotes you in the future. You know, to help you show how impartial you are as you like to profess.
By BravesAC
November 7, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this
RC, Nice list. I see it as: Hanson (closer) Heyward Freeman (strong season trumps Schafer’s) Schafer Hernandez Flowers (showing lots of power) Medlin Locke Cody Johnson (like Howard of the Phillies? lots of Ks, awesome power) Rohrbourgh (sp?) Gilmore Delgado Notable omissions: Evarts (surgery), Rasmus (#1 always hurt), Rodgers(sp), Hicks, Jones… AND the Braves have another high nbr 1 (7th overall) in a strong June draft with the possible addition of the 22 year old Japanese stud pitcher. Farm’s looking good!
By cub4life
November 7, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this
Peavy to Cubs, Peavy to Cubs!! It’s a done deal Atlanta! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!
By Braveheart
November 7, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
Quit worrying about errors and start thinking about range and the number of outs Prado will generate over Johnson. Folks to say that Johnson (a converted outfielder) is better than Prado (a natural infielder) is, well, just flat ignorant.
First of all, KJ is not a converted outfielder. KJ was drafted and groomed by the organization as a SS. Nitmar was groomed as a second baseman. That right there is very telling about what the scouts and folks in the minors thought of their relative defensive abilities and athleticism. Be very wary of the defensive ability of the major league infielder who wasn’t a SS in the minors, especially when he’s like Nitmar and doesn’t have a huge bat. The lesser the bat, the more the need to play a premium up the middle defensive position.
Nitmar also isn’t really used in the outfield. KJ has been. There are many reasons for that but Nitmar’s lack of athleticism in relation to KJ is a reason Nitmar isn’t tried out there as much …… also his bat can’t hang out there the way KJ’s can.
Also, check out triples, stolen bases, watch them run the bases, watch their actual range ……
If you’ve really been watching, KJ is just more athletic, quicker and faster than Nitmar and has more range.
If Nitmar is so darn better than KJ, which would mean he’s either just as good or better than Escobar, then why would San Diego laugh at the Braves if they tried to give Nitmar instead of KJ or Escobar?
By Steve from OH
November 7, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this
Couch Tater:
His ability to play multiple positions is why I like him as a utility guy. Playing him everyday will get him overexposed, both offensively and defensively. His career numbers, are, well…they’re lackluster, for sure. Not comfortable with giving that guy 600 PA, and his glove is certainly not at Yunel’s level. I’m not too comfy with Lilly, either, for the record, but if we’re talking internal options I like Lillibridge a bit better.
I agree with Efrim that if Yunel is traded that we will probably go out and get someone else to fill the position.
By N8
November 7, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this
OK people, don’t lynch me just for suggesting this, but I’m a major conspiracy theorist to begin with, but here’s a hunch.
While Peavy SURELY is within his right to decide to veto a trade to Atlanta if he thinks they will be weakened by using Yunel to get him, I’m not sure he’d publicly state so.
But here’s the thing. What if Wren asked his agent to publicly state just that, so they can keep Yunel out of the trade?
Far fetched? Sure, maybe a little. Totally impossible? Doubtful. No more of a chess move than Towers stating that Peavy agreed to go to NY or Boston when he didn’t.
Towers has said he wants pitching.
Bluestreak
Totally agree with you. Time to call Towers’ bluff, IMO. Time to move on to other trades, and free agents.
In the end if Towers comes back to Wren, and some of the pieces he wanted are already gone from other trades, too bad so sad for him.
The Padres ownership and fan base is NOT gonna put up with Peavy being traded for guys that are 2-3 years away from making the ML roster. If he wants to go with the Cubs offer, it just might be his last big move as GM.
By DAP
November 7, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this
dadgum Folks to say that Johnson (a converted outfielder) is better than Prado (a natural infielder) is, well, just flat ignorant.
speaking of ignorant…kelly came up as a short stop. which, by the way, is in the infield. he got moved to the outfield…a converted infielder! and now hes back on the infield.
the braves didnt just throw darts at a board and come up with kelly at 2nd. they knew he played alot of baseball in his life in the infield.
By N8
November 7, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this
Anders
Take a pill, sit down, and STFU. Go feel sorry for yourself on a Mets blog.
I’ve had my azz ROYALLY chewed twice by DOB for misquoting him in the near 3 years I’ve been on the blog.
You’re like a kid that gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar and wants to blame the parents for having a “no cookie” rule before bedtime.
If you don’t wanna get called out, don’t do something to get called out. If you feel that you’ve been called out without justification, leave.
It is a public space. But without DOB (and the bloggers - you included), it wouldn’t be a public space that is often used. Get over yourself and get back to baseball talk or go away.
If I had a dollar for everytime I felt like DOB or another blogger “huwt my feewings”, I’d be a rich man.
Can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Do you want any more cliche’s?
By RC
November 7, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this
Bryan, I like it. How about this deal:
Hanson/Kotchman for Peavy/Gonzalez. No chance it happens. But i’d be doing backflips if it did.
By Couch Tater
November 7, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this
*The Bear @ 8:39 * So, if Josh Beckett had Peavy’s salary and Hanley Ramirez had Escobar’s. Do you trade? By the way, we’ve been looking for you in Tuscaloosa since 1983. Didn’t know you were in Taiwan and West Palm.
By BravesAC
November 7, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this
My list left off some other notable omissions: Scott Diamond Redmond Heath And the biggest omission of all - Craig Kimbrel…I bet he trumps someone to make the top ten. Add Zeke Spruill and there’s been an obvious attempt in recent years to rebuild the Braves pitching to it’s former prominence. If the Braves can’t get Tate from GA at #7 in the June draft, I bet it’s another high school pitcher with tons of upside too.
DOB - your blogs/info is the absolute best. You’re a real pro. We’re all devouring your hot stove info.
By Braveheart
November 7, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this
But here’s the thing. What if Wren asked his agent to publicly state just that, so they can keep Yunel out of the trade?
Here’s the reason why that didn’t go down: Axelrod is the agent for both Towers and Peavy. I don’t see him conspiring with Frank Wren against his client Towers even if it assists his other client Peavy.
Peavy is a really good pitcher but has been talked about more in the last month than he has ever been in his entire career combined. Nothing like being a free agent or on the trade block to make you famous. Awards and the postseason aren’t enough anymore it seems to get fame. You gotta get paid, traded and be in high demand.
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
Brent A, excellent reply at 6:38 a.m.
By Romero
November 7, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this
Quit kissing a*, BravesAC.
By Anders
November 7, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this
N8
If you have no problem being called a liar in public that’s your business. Personally I will defend myself. I can take the heat but I won’t be called a liar.
Didn’t appreciate the “STFU” comment. I’ve never talked to anyone like that on here. But then again, “That says more about you than me”. How’s that for a cliche?
By RC
November 7, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this
BravesAC:
I agree about Kimbrel being an ommission from the list…I just wonder if he’ll make it since he’s viewed as more of a relief prospect than a starter. I also am excited about Spruill, if only for the name, but I think he’s young enough that he doesn’t crack the top 11 in the Braves system, which says a lot about how strong the system is.
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this
Bryan, I don’t know. Perhaps because Frank doesn’t want to trade one of the best pitching prospects in baseball (Hanson), a guy the Braves project as a future No. 1 starter and who’ll be affordable for years to come, to have upgrade at 1B and then hope he can trade his current 1B (Kotchman) for something of equal value 3-1/2 months after getting that current 1B and announcing he was a solid return in the Teixeira trade and should be the Braves’ 1B the next few years.
Unless you’re suggesting Frank play a potentially very high-stakes game of poker with Towers, with no intentions of him actually taking him up on the Hanson/Gonzalez expansion of the deal.
By AdirondackDave
November 7, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this
DOB — You mentioned that Hansen is one of the best pitching prospects in baseball, who would you think is an equal or better pitching prospect these days? Thanks.
By Nate
November 7, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
It really does feel like we’re a bunch of third graders squabbling on the playground in here from time to time.
By kdbanks
November 7, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this
DOB,
How much consideration is made when GMs are discussing trades to positional needs in the minor league system. For example, if the Braves have only 4 or 5 first basemen in the minors, from low A to AAA, would getting a mid-level 1B prospect become more important in a deal as the “extra minor league player” thrown in?
It seems like this must come into play in someway simply to ensure that throughout all levels of the organization you have enough players at each position to a) field a decent team and b) so guys are forced to play above their level (i.e. an A-ball guy moving to AA simply because they need a RF or something).
This is a real problem for me when I’m GM’ing my video game baseball team, as I always end up with about twice as many pitchers as I need and never enough outfielders or corner infielders. So, obviously, this must be true in real life. Right? Hello? Bueller? “Something D-O-O economics? Anyone? Voodoo Economics?” Sigh.
By N8
November 7, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
Whatever Anders. You’re a Mets troll who comes on here and starts crap all the time, and now you want sympathy?
It’s worth repeating…..whatever. Go away.
DOB has an email address. If you’ve got an issue, use it.
Here are the two comments I have issue with:
“How about I chalk my “decent Prospect” quote up to “oops, sorry folks I need more coffee” that you like to spew when you write something off the mark. Or is that only reserved for the blogmaster?”
Quite simply…. YES. It’s his blog. Technically he can write whatever the hell he wants.
“I fully expect to see your moral outrage next time one of your loyal denizens misquotes you in the future. You know, to help you show how impartial you are as you like to profess.”
That’s the big one. You act like you are the ONLY person that has EVER been b!tch-slapped on here by DOB or other bloggers.
Now that I read that comment again, I’ll repeat the cliche you didn’t like so much. SHUT UP.
This has nothing to do with whether you were right, or if DOB is right. Believe me, if I thought you were right (which I don’t), I’d be sticking up for you, even though you’re a Mets troll. But you’re wrong, AND you’re whining like you’ve been singled out.
You bring a certain fire to the blog, and you like to stir the pot. I enjoy watching you and Lew go back and forth. It’s funny and amusing. Because I can imagine Lew’s blood pressure rising with each keystroke as he responds to you.
But again, save the self pity. THAT says a lot more about you, than you think it does.
By Anders
November 7, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
Braveheart
Nothing like being a free agent or on the trade block to make you famous. Awards and the postseason aren’t enough anymore it seems to get fame. You gotta get paid, traded and be in high demand.
Not sure I’m fully understanding your point, and based on today’s environment on the blog if at any time you think we should have legal counsel review our posts before submittimg I would be open to that, anyway, in the end isn’t Peavy underpaid and part of that could be because he personally has constricted his demand with the limited list he’s given Towers?
Unless you’re saying he wants to get traded just to be more famous? I don’t see that but it’s the only one of the three you mention left on the table.
Anything written in the previous post is not the opinion of the AJC or the keeper of the blog
By Efrim
November 7, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this
DOB
What is your take on Axelrod’s comments about Escobar being included in the deal?
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this
Adirondack, various lists of prospects will vary to a degree because some will take into account age and closeness-to-majors, some will exclude guys who’ve pitched in the majors a certain number of innings, etc.
Among pitchers who are close to the majors but haven’t pitched there yet, I think Hanson will be ranked as high as No. 1 on some lists. I really do. That’s the impression I got from talking to scouts and a few officials from other teams at the GM meetings.
By N8
November 7, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this
Anders
“Anything written in the previous post is not the opinion of the AJC or the keeper of the blog”
Now THAT is funny and how protesting should be done. NOT crying foul at the top of your soapbox.
Well played. THAT is the creativity that is needed on this blog.
With that, I apologize for telling you to STFU.
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this
Peavy is a really good pitcher but has been talked about more in the last month than he has ever been in his entire career combined.Braveheart
Perhaps, but he was also talked about quite a bit in 2007, when he was the unanimous winner of the Cy Young Award. Not many unanimous winners of that award.
I do agree with you that it’s highly unlikely Axelrod is conspiring with Braves. For one thing, both parties are aware of the tampering charges that could arise from such actions. Wren goes out of his way to avoid even the appearance of such stuff.
By BravesAC
November 7, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
Romero If I ever kissed a**, unlike you I’d at least be getting some. You may not recognize the concept, but giving a compliment for the quality of one’s work is an accepted practice in the business world. Crawl back in your hole with Anders unless you’ve got some baseball news/comments.
By BravesAC
November 7, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
Romero If I ever kissed a**, unlike you I’d at least be getting some. You may not recognize the concept, but giving a compliment for the quality of one’s work is an accepted practice in the business world. Crawl back in your hole with Anders unless you’ve got some baseball news/comments.
By nolie
November 7, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this
.* I, for one, would like seeing Infante batting four times a game.*
I’m not so eager. The guy has a career OBP of around .300. That really stinks. No way to know but 08 could easily just be a career year. I love having him as a back-up but would be very leery of depending on him to produce all that much as a regular starter
By Dadgum
November 7, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this
Don’t trade Francouer….I hear ya’ on what the Braves have said. Frankly I simply don’t believe it. So you are saying that the Braves will keep KJ at 2nd once Escobar is gone. That the Braves will not trade KJ and maybe one other to St.Louis for Ludwick and make Prado the 2nd baseman? Really? Wren ain’t that stupid.
I am not saying Prado is the best 2nd baseman ever simply he is better than Johnson regardless of how much the Braves have invested in him. While Wren may state he won’t trade both his middle infielders I state that he wouldn’t be simply because Prado is in many eyes the better of the two and played very well there last year when thrust into the role. Prado will play even better when he knows that he is the go to guy everyday there and can prepare himself before every game knowing he is the guy there.
Frankly I am dumbfounded as to why the Braves made that statement but perhaps it is because they want to hold their cards and not tip their hand. Nevertheless if the Braves end up not doing the Ludwick deal because they want to keep Johnson at 2nd then I have serious concerns over the direction the Braves are taking.
I have no doubt that the Braves will get Peavy and lose Escobar, Morton, and maybe Hernandez. Also holding this deal up is Wren probably working the agents to see who the SS replacement will be. Can’t see the trade getting done until the SS situation is done as well.
Oh yeah, Escobar was a rookie with the talent and upside like nobody the Braves currently have. Renteria was expendable when the Braves saw that Escobar could handle the everyday job at SS. I think they are seeing the same thing with Prado at 2nd making KJ expendable. Absolutely no way that Infante or Lillibridge can handle the SS spot for 162+ games. I keep both on board as utility guys though as you know Chipper ain’t playing 162+ games and they both can play multiple positions. Ditto Prado.
Rock on……seldom right but never in doubt.
By Marty
November 7, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this
Let me save DOB some trouble here, because several people don’t appear to understand a couple of things.
Omar Infante is NOT regarded by the Braves (or much of anyone) as a starting major-league shortstop.
Kelly Johnson was not a good LF when the Braves tried that not too long ago, and they have said that they have no intention of moving him from second base.
Jeff Francoeur is NOT a center fielder.
The Braves have said publicly that they will NOT trade both Kelly and Yunel in the same offseason. If you think that Frank Wren is lying, then fine, but I don’t know what else you expect DOB to say on the subject.
That is all (for now).
By Braveheart
November 7, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this
Anders, I wasn’t saying he wants to be traded to be famous. He doesn’t sound like he wants fame at all. If he did, he’d be running to Boston or the Bronx. I was just saying it’s kind of weird that the best way to become famous is to be traded or to become a free agent. It seems to make you more famous than winning awards or doing well in October or just being good during the regular season.
By Steve from OH
November 7, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this
Adirondack, I agree with DOB…I can see Hanson ranked #1, sure, especially since Price and Kersaw should be off prospect lists (maybe Efrim will clarify that one for me?). Price will be #1 if he’s still a prospect. The only other top pitching prospects I can think of off the top of my head that might rival Hanson are Bumgarner and maybe Tillman. You may see Bumgarner higher on some lists, but I’ll give Hanson the nod, in part because I’m a homer and that Hanson is much more advanced than Bumgarner. I don’t think Tillman is at Hanson’s level.
Like DOB said, it depends on whether or not scouts value pure potential or level of advancement. But Hanson’s gotta be at least top 3.
By Nate
November 7, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this
I think acquiring Peavy now is a good idea, but realistically the Braves best chance at winning a World Series is a couple of years away when some of the prospects have fully blossomed and before some of the younger players already on the team reach arbitration and free agency. Hanson should be just hitting his stride right when the Braves are most prepared to compete. Trading him now would be stupid.
Trading Hanson now for Gonzales may give the Braves a better shot at making the playoffs next year. But the goal really should be to win the World Series, and not to just make the playoffs every year. I think winning the World Series will require more patience.
By nolie
November 7, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this
Anybody else tired of this process, or am I just too impatient?Bluestreak
yes
By Hud20
November 7, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this
DOB New to the blog here. Really enjoying it. IF the deal for Peavy goes down with Escobar one of the main parts, what is your best guess on what the Braves do at SS next year? Obviously it would be from outside the system, any possibilities, other than Furcal and his bad back?
By Dan
November 7, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this
Cannot blame Jake for wanting Esco to remain with the Braves.
Is there any chance the Braves could convince the Padres to take Kelly? Did you get a sense from your time in California that the Padres were interested in Kelly at all?
By Jared
November 7, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this
DOB,
First time posting!
Question: If Peavy wants Escobar to remain in Atlanta, like the recent reports have claimed, what should be our next move? How do we clarify the SS situation so that we appeal more to Peavy and still manage to get this trade done? I’ve got a lot of Cub’s fans texting me at work saying we just lost Peavy to them. I need some fire power for them.
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this
If I misquoted you, fine, say so (if you like) as this is a public space. But calling me a liar is out of line, not to mention insulting.Anders at 10:02 a.m.
If you have no problem being called a liar in public that�s your business. Personally I will defend myself. I can take the heat but I won�t be called a liar.Anders at 10:35 a.m.
Ironically, these comments serve to emphasize my very assertion about you exaggerating what someone else says to make your point.
If you do a search through all 800 or so previous comments on this blog for the word “liar,” you’ll find it only three times, and all three times it was written by you — in the two comments above protesting its claimed use.
I didn’t use the word. I said “fabricate.”
Fabricate, as in, “To impart a false character to (something) by alteration.”
I’m with you on being called a “liar” in public. That wouldn’t be right. Let us know when someone calls you that on the blog.
By RC
November 7, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this
All the talk in the past few days of Francouer being “similar” to Andre Dawson prompted me to go to baseballreference.com to see if Dawson appears in Jeff’s top 10 “similar” players. He did not, although there was a familiar name at #10 on the list: Mark Teahen.
Out of curiosity, I looked up Brian McCann to see who his comparables were. One name astounded me, although statstically it’s backed up: #4 Hanley Rameriez (#7 through age 24). I looked up Hanley’s page, and Brian is listed as his #1 comparable player. Who knew?
By ccrider
November 7, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this
Anders; DOB didn’t call you a liar, he called you the “FABRICATION KING”. You should be honored! You have become royalty on this blog. He who: Makes Up Fantastical Tales From the Deep Recesses of His Mind. This is an honor you have earned and deserve! Embrace it. YOUR MAJESTY!
By Bawlmer Brave
November 7, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this
I’m not sure which side I come down on as far as projecting Prado’s full-season capabiliites, but just thought I’d bring up a point as “Devil’s Advocate”. I seem to remember during last offseason all the talk about how Diaz had proven himself, probably played well enough to merit being the everyday LF instead of a platoon player. There was talk about what a hidden gem he was, no worries about the corner OF positions, etc. All I’m trying to say is that tomorrow is never guaranteed, and it’s all speculation. Who knows how Prado might do as FT 2B, but we need to make sure we temper our expectations.
By N8
November 7, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this
Dadgum
I agree. I don’t necessarily think that Wren was lying (god forbid somebody accuse another person of lying on this blog), but I don’t really believe that there isn’t a scenario out there that they wouldn’t trade both of them if it made the team better.
It’s not like the franchise is centered around KJ.
I just believe that Wren said that, because as far as ML ready players that could/would be available to trade Escobar and KJ are the two that spark the most interest from other teams.
So, I think it was just public posturing on Wren’s behalf letting others know that they’re gonna have to up the ante to get KJ from us, once Escobar is gone, or vice versa.
I also agree that provided we get a power hitting OF for KJ (assuming Peavy is had for Escobar), we can afford to go with Prado at 2B.
As for who plays SS? Hard to say. We could probably get away with a defensive minded SS as long as Francoeur rebounds and Kotchman isn’t as bad as he was shortly after the trade.
That’s a lot of “ifs”, to go into the season with a weak hitting middle infield combo. Add to that, the pitching will certainly be improved if Peavy is acquired, along with whoever else Wren picks up.
Bottom line, is that the Braves were “in the conversation” and in the race in the first half of the season last year, even with Tex struggling because they were getting good pitching. The starters weren’t going deep into games, and that doomed them later in the year, as the bullpen wore down.
But we didn’t fall out of the race after the Tex trade due to bad offense. Our pitching was not only the worst in the NL, it was the worst by a HUGE margin.
While it’s true we might lose a lot of 2-1 games if we don’t game some offense (assuming KJ and Escobar might both be traded), I’ll take my chances more often than not with good pitching, and a weak offense, than with a huge offense and weak pitching.
Obviously having above average players on boths sides would be ideal.
When it all comes out (the moves Wren WILL make), I think there is going to be a couple of “surprises” in there that nobody (including DOB) saw coming.
And maybe they don’t seem like blockbusters, but not too many people were sold on the JJJ/Renteria trade last year either.
We shall see.
By Bryan from Kansas ( Go Ku )
November 7, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this
David,
I actually was very serious about the trade for Gonzalez…Include Kotchman in the deal as well. It would save the Padres a ton of money and we would get a pitcher and prototypical first basemen. I appreciate the tone of sarcasm. But I was seriouisly wondering about it. I understand the high stakes poker game. If that were to happen what do you think Kevin Towers would do?
By Steve from OH
November 7, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this
Baseball Prospects did a radio inteview with Jason Heyward and Kevin Goldstein on the Braves’ farm system. Check it out.
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 7, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this
Dadgum, nolie, Marty
Good stuff, it seems we are all on the same page.
Personally, I just love Kelly’s poetic left-handed swing (especially when he is on). Prado and Escobar, while maybe more effective and consistent are slap gap hitters and don’t often get points for style.
By Romero
November 7, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this
BravesAC: “If I ever kissed a**, unlike you I’d at least be getting some. “What…the?
By jim
November 7, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this
DOB or others Any information about the following prospects?
In reading the Baseball America bit on the Braves ‘08 draft and the prospect names being thrown around here, the glaring omission from any mention at all was DeVall. What is the story with him? He didn’t pitch a lot once he signed. Is he hurt? The original assessment in Baseball America was that he was perhaps the top HS lefty in the draft. Has his prospect status slipped?
Also is Teheran pitching in instructional league this fall? He didn’t get to pitch very much this summer and ‘08 was a lost year in his development. Is he Healthy now?
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this
Sun-Times is reporting a source saying “no way” Selig and other owners are going to approve of Mark Cuban buying Cubs. That, to me, is unfortunate. I really think he’d be great for the game.
By TommyP
November 7, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this
This blog can really deteriorate into some immature stuff.
I took a break ‘cause it was getting bad but come back and see it’s much worse.
Damn, y’all. We’re talking baseball. Just baseball.
The personal attacks and acts of superiority on here have become a blog epidemic.
To sound like Iverson, “We’re talkin’ baseball. Baseball.”
By AdirondackDave
November 7, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
Steve-0 and DOB — Thanks for the info on Hansen and his ranking/competition on the “best pitching prospect” lists. I can hardly wait to see him with Atlanta. He turned in another really fine outing last night in Arizone… And he’s pitching against tough competition down there in an environment that probably doesn’t favor pitchers.
No wonder Wren has said no way to trading him. He exactly what every club in baseball would love to have knock on the door in their system.
By Preacherdude
November 7, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this
DOB, all of the talk is understandably about Peavy at this point because so much else depends on what happens with him, but with so many other teams looking for starting pitching who do you see as REAL possibilities free agent/trade that the braves would consider to be that 2nd pitcher Frank Wren has said he would acquire??
By TommyP
November 7, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
Bawlmer: Very cool handle. Can still recall my late granddad constantly referring to it as such.
On your point, if Prado is the guy they decide at 2B, at least have something to fall back on if it doesn’t work out.
By Lou Vales
November 7, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
Hey Dave, GM trading halted!! Ford has 7 months of cash left. Chrysler—Who????
Somehow I could see Detroit being gone, however, don’t forget all those ancillary positions(suppliers, parts, materials, sales, advertising) in other areas—GONE!!! Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh get those 80 dollars season ticket plans ready.
Have you read about any impact in New York with 200,000!!!!!! jobs estimated lost due to financial crisis. Those new stadiums are going to need new clients buying suites BECAUSE the public and government—that still count—will look less than fondly on companies getting aid buying luxury boxes.
Wouldn’t you agree that Boras can do whatever he wants in negotiations—BUT maybe, just maybe, Put A Muzzle on His Inanities!!!
By veer
November 7, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this
David O Brien is the reason for my broken heart. THE CUBS ARE GETTING PEAVY NOW. I was so excited and david is to be blamed, i read peavy blog every single day for past one month, excited and had great hopes of having Peavy in the rotation. Dave seemed so sure that we are getting Peavy and now look what has happend. Alot of people here pointed facts out to Dave but NOO David continued to insisted that Braves are front runners and now CUBS WILL BE GETTING PEAVY ACCORDING TO SEVERAL SOURCES.
What happens now? another year of 4th place finish and you know why i feel this broken hearted? because of DOB. I MEAN HE IS THE ONE THAT GOT OUR HOPES HIGH. HE KEPT SAYING BRAVES WILL GET PEAVY AND NOW????? Dave now what?? YOU GOT AN ASNWER FOR MYSELF AND OTHER BRAVES FANS WHO ARE HEART BROKEN RIGHT NOW?
I AM P**. PEAVY WAS A MUST FOR US. FREAKING CUBS MAN. I can understand braves losing out on a trade but DOB made me certain we are getting Peavy.
I hope you are happy Dave, i mean fans like me will suffer and have sleepless nights while you will go to restaurants and eat and enjoy yourself.
By Efrim
November 7, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this
Steve from OH
Chris Tillman, Jarrod Parker, Madison Bumgarner, Derek Holland. Maybe Trevor Cahill and Brett Anderson in Oakland.
Oh yea, and Neftali Feliz. He is right there with Hanson. To be honest, I bet Feliz is the #1 pitching prospect in the minors right now. We’ll see when BA and others come out with their lists. But that is my guess.
It doesn’t really matter though. Hanson has frontline projection.Whether it is #1 or #2 doesn’t matter. That will be determined when we see the guy in the majors.
By ncscoots
November 7, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this
Jake Peavy paraphrases Groucho Marx: “I wouldn’t want to join a club that would trade Escobar to have me.”
Even as big an Escobar-hugger as I am, I find that totally whack. Unless Jake thinks he should be privy to all the machinations of the Braves’ front office, so that he can sign off on every decision.
Thanks, Jake, but the Braves already have John Smoltz for that.
By Efrim
November 7, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this
Baseball Prospectus writer Kevin Goldstein’s take on the Braves system:
Summary: The Braves have a solid core of young talent, but for the most part it’s not going to help this team get any better in 2009. The Braves are a solid long-term play, but a trade of top prospects for Jake Peavy would be a mistake, simply guaranteeing a solid run at mediocrity, as opposed to having the patience to wait out a possible return to National League East glory at the beginning of the next decade.
By AdirondackDave
November 7, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this
Lou — You raise good and important points on the economy, especially effecting the upper midwest and NYC right now. People who are fortunate enough to still have their jobs in those areas are very concerned about keeping them. I don’t see how baseball can NOT be affected by this situation. We’re just beginning to feel this deep recession and those of us in our 70s can smell a depression lurking not far down the road. Frank Wren and his colleagues around baseball must surely know they are not immune. Every week that passes should make baseball’s execs more likely to value in-house development over free agency and big contracts. Country’s in trouble, folks.
By Anders
November 7, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this
DOB
It’s unbecoming of you, to lie or fabricate or misrepresent what others say. You, in particularly, do it way too much.
From Webster’s New Riverside Dictionary:
liar: n Someone who tells lies.
I did not have to go through all 800 posts, just back to your 11:04 post. You specifically said I lie which implies I’m a liar. Consider yourself notified.
Perhaps you were absent the day they taught vocabulary at Kansas?
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this
Veer, what can I say, once a heartbreaker, always a….
Going back to what I said about Mark Cuban and Cubs ownership, I should add a qualifier: While I think he’d be good for the game, I could also understand why opposing clubs might fear a Cubs colossus with a $200-plus mill payroll under Mark Cuban.
(Not that I know if that has much to do with why other owners and Selig don’t want him. Don’t know. They probably don’t like his image or outspokenness.)
By johnny 99
November 7, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this
From Baseball Prospectus:
Five-Star Prospects 1. Jason Heyward, OF 2. Tommy Hanson, RHP Four-Star Prospects 3. Jordan Schafer, CF 4. Gorkys Hernandez, CF 5. Freddie Freeman, 1B Three-Star Prospects 6. Julio Teheran, RHP 7. Cole Rohrbough, LHP 8. Tyler Flowers, C 9. Randall Delgado, RHP 10. Brandon Hicks, SS Two-Star Prospects 11. Kris Medlen, RHP
Just Missed: John Gilmore, 3B; Craig Kimbrell, RHP; Jeff Locke, LHP
Ranking Challenges: There was a lot of flip-flopping from top to bottom during the ranking process. I went back and forth on number one between Heyward and Hanson, but ultimately Heyward’s advantage as far as his ceiling outweighed Hanson’s edge in certainty. Schafer was always number three, but I also went back and forth with the Hernandez and Freeman spots. Teheran jumped all over the place between sixth and 10th before a discussion with a scout provided some clarity, and having two scouts both express strong concerns about Flowers’ defense dropped him a bit at the end. As was the case with Arizona, there were many possibilities for the 11th spot, before finally settling on Medlen.*
Rest of the article is subscribe-only…and I don’t.
By MizzouBravesFan
November 7, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this
Samardzija has a NTC…he really gonna waive it to go to San Diego? I don’t think so.
Their offer is not close to ours, how anyone thinks that offer makes them the front runners is beyond me.
I think it’s more the media WANTS them to be the front runner because it’s the “sexy story”. The Cubs trying to build this super rotation or whatever. It’s a joke.
By Original Jon
November 7, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this
Veer Dude, you cannot be serious, can you? Was this all a joke or were you being for real? If you were being for real, you need some counseling or something.
By Marty
November 7, 2008 12:05 PM | Link to this
Efrim - BP also wrote a long bit about Yunel Escobar being mediocre and Lillibridge being the Braves’ long-term answer at SS prior to last season. I don’t put much stock into their comments.
By Dadgum
November 7, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this
Cetainly didn’t indicate that Wren was l…I won’t use the “L” word. Only indicated that I didn’t believe it. Basically that he was posturing. Of course maybe he isn’t posturing. Definitely that chance but the landscape changes hourly and what was once said or written can change if it betters the ballclub.
Totally agree with you N8. About needing a strong defense as opposed to a strong offense if given the choice of the two. But alas there has to be balance and therein lies the tough part of developing a team. Kind of what this whole blog (of late) has been about.
Let’s all let this play out and let Wren and staff do their job without mortgaging the farm. There is a balance he must attain as well.
Rock on…..and on and on
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this
MizzouBravesFan, it’s a limited no-trade for Samardzija….
Anders: Whatever is is you do, it’s often unpleasant and annoying and poisons the spirit of the blog and the conversation. That much is clear.
By J.L.
November 7, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this
NCSCOOTS:11:53 - AHMEN ! Why Cuban shoudl’nt be able to buy Cubs. He’s a JERK !! Think Anders times a thousand !!
By Anders' Stepdad
November 7, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this
Anders: Whatever is is you do, it’s often unpleasant and annoying and poisons the spirit of the blog and the conversation. That much is clear
DOB how dare you talk to him like this. No one deserves this! He loves baseball like all of us. I love you son
By Original Jon
November 7, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this
DOB How limited is the no trade clause?
By A.S.
November 7, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this
johny thanks for the info. Thats a great list of our prospects.
David do you think the Braves are going to up the anty and possibly give Roughbourgh or are we just going to let Peavy walk away and try to sign Lowe and some other guys.
By Coach (Skip and Pete will be missed)
November 7, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this
Bill James and I are in total agreement when it comes to the importance of the quality start. The following article is from way back in 1992 and it is just as relevant 16 years later.
Bear in mind, it requires an intricate understanding of the game of baseball.
MARTY THE RETARD
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this
When I don’t get much time on the blog, I scan up and down for Dave’s posts and for some others that I respect.
Rarely do I ever read any of Anders posts, as they are usually him arguing something stupid. But now when I read Dave’s posts and start seeing the name Anders, it tells me that Anders is using up way too much of our blogmeisters’ energy.
Anders Some friendly advice. Go away for a while, come back with a new screen name. Don’t tell anybody you were Anders in a previous life. Don’t reference in any way the name “Anders”.
Then, introduce yourself as a Mets fan who loves to cruise the Braves blog, and reinvent yourself. You will be glad you did (and we will too!).
Once in a while I have enjoyed a few of your posts, but being confrontational is not going to endear yourself to others.
Just saying….
By chipperchop
November 7, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this
So, The Cubbies are getting Peavy eh? All I can say is thank god, we can all stop talking about this now, and focus on plan B. Trading away any big prospects and Yunel is not smart anyway in my opinion if we want to compete anytime soon. And frankly I’m sick of hearing about. The Braves SHOULD walk away and look to 2010.
By Anders
November 7, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this
DOB
From your 11:23 post:
I’m with you on being called a “liar” in public. That wouldn’t be right. Let us know when someone calls you that on the blog.
Some would say you lied here when then presented with the facts of my 11:56 post. Especially when the reponse from you is:
Anders: Whatever is is you do, it’s often unpleasant and annoying and poisons the spirit of the blog and the conversation. That much is clear.
Not me though. I say this is DOB being his usual non-partisan keeper of the blog.
Still seeing all the irony in this that you saw back at 11:23? I didn’t then, but I sure do now, that much is clear.
By Lou Vales
November 7, 2008 12:41 PM | Link to this
Dear Dave, I REALLY wish to apologize. I realize I’ve been acerbic at times—No Kidding!!!!—-and it has usually related to what I conceived as narrowness of the board. However, if I choose to come here of my own volition I can’t expect to redefine the content. I have been pig headed!!! Mea Culpa!!
This time, however, I believe I’m making points that can’t be denied. The NBA is recognizing it and baseball will SOON have to recognize it. My quarrels have NEVER been with the size of the deals, but rather the rhetoric from the likes of Boras that surround the deals. You would think in this environment that EVEN Boras would recognize the PAIN of maybe 65 Percent of the populace—going higher??—and just keep his mouth shut to the media. The man is a Welsh Corgi. I do give him credit for the deals he has finished, BUT Scott, c’mon SOME decency in these times would be appreciated.
Varitek—52.5 Million!!!!!!! I forgot the Supreme Court Justice who said “I can’t define pornography but I recognize it when i see it”. With that quote in mind, Varitek’s asking price qualifies as the 2008 addition of Behind the Green Door.
By Efrim
November 7, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this
Marty
BP also wrote a long bit about Yunel Escobar being mediocre and Lillibridge being the Braves’ long-term answer at SS prior to last season. I don’t put much stock into their comments.
So they are wrong on one thing and then you don’t take stock into anything else they have to say?
Good luck with that. Hope it works out for you.
By Raddad
November 7, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this
Something doesn’t add up with Jake Peavy if he so worried about what the braves give up. What about the cubs. They also would be giving up prospects. HMMMM. Here is how I think it will go down there will a conversation between Frank Wren and Jake Peavys agent about those concerns and M. Peavys agent will be told he will have a good fielding shortstop behind him guaranteed. Also the Mark Cuban affect they (cubs) are not going to be spending that kind of money for Peavy (talent and contract) plus Ryan Dempster. That whole thing was based on cuban buying the team. Now he is not.
By Wayne
November 7, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this
XM just had Jon Garland in an interview.
Nice guy. Wouldn’t be a bad pickup as a mid rotation guy. Gets too many innnings to call him a #5, unless you have 4 top notch starters against him.
By brent a.
November 7, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this
I’m mixed on the Mark Cuban thing.
On the selfish side, I am happy that he and his bottomless pit of finances will not be purchasing the major-market Chicago Cubs.
It’s one thing to have the Yankees and Red Sox be able to spend so much money; but, at least they are in the AL.
Bringing Cuban’s wealth to the NL would just make competing in the NL that much tougher, and Cubs fans that much more obnoxious.
Also, I’ve never been a big fan of his antics. Cuban thinks he’s cute and likes to show off. That being said, the man has matured a lot during this decade. He has gotten married and had a child, and also, seemingly at the bequest of his players, has toned down his antics so that he has become less of a distraction.
But, MLB is well aware that some of his worst antics occurred during the 2006 Finals, and that is tough for him to get past, considering it was so recent, and on such a big stage (even if the Mavs were completely ripped off in that series, you’ve still got to handle yourself better as the owner of the team).
All that said, Cuban is a great owner. He takes care of his players, his fans, and even does a lot for his city.
I moved to Dallas shortly after Cuban bought the Mavericks.
Even early in his 2nd season, when I first started attending games, the crowds were small, even though the product on the court was decent.
But, Cuban was aggressive with both on court and off court activities, making himself very available to the media, and to the fans. He responds to virtually ever e-mail you send him. He sent me several responses during those first couple of years, and his responses showed that he was actually paying attention to what I had sent him.
With Cuban’s great marketing work, and an improved on-court product, the Mavericks became the hottest ticket in town, at a time when the Stars starting a downward slide and the Triplets at Texas Stadium were all ending their careers.
With that in mind, I’m still not sure that Chicago is where Cuban is most needed. After-all, would Cuban as owner of the Lakers be nearly as interesting as Cuban as owner of the Mavericks? (That said, Cuban did want to buy the Clippers, but Donald Sterling didn’t want to sell. Could’ve been fascinating really, to see Cuban and the Lakers go head2head with Buss and the Lakers, right in the same building).
I really wish, for some sad team’s sake, and the sake of MLB, that Cuban would buy a small market team and re-energize that team and its fan base. Cuban has actually wanted to buy the Pittsburgh Pirates, but team ownership is not interested in selling. This is sad, considering the baseball tradition in Pittsburgh, the great stadium, and the fact that Cuban is actually a Pirates’ fan.
Would MLB consider letting Cuban purchase a small market team like Pittsburgh, or Cincinnati? Do Selig & Co. really fear what Cuban would do as a Major League owner, both in terms of spending and behavioral issues; or, do they just not think it would be wise to add another super-rich owner in a major market?
In my very humble, and as of yet, not well-thought out opinion, if Selig and the owners can collude to prevent Cuban from buying the Chicago Cubs, and have it have anything to do with the fact that he is a billionaire, then what these same owners really need to be focusing on is a way to restrict salary and balance the playing field in major league baseball.
Otherwise, let Cuban and his money in.
By Dadgum
November 7, 2008 12:47 PM | Link to this
Hopefully a new blog will be coming up….see ya’ then.
Rock on…..
By Lee in S GA
November 7, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this
(Not that I know if that has much to do with why other owners and Selig don’t want him. Don’t know. They probably don’t like his image or outspokenness.)
DOB - I thinb that had a lot to do with the decision. Selig dealing with Cuban would almost be like Cox trying to deal with Manny as a Brave.
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this
Lou Vales: Again, you’re making the mistake of equating baseball/entertainment with the real world. It takes an astonishingly awful set of circumstances over an extend period for the real world to even begin to trickle into sports and entertainment, in terms of having an effect on ticket prices, salaries, etc. We might — might — be seeing a little of that now, finally. But it won’t affect the guys at the top of the pay scale, at least I don’t think it will. Should, but won’t.
By Ander's Mom
November 7, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this
What the h3ll are you doing on here old man? truth be told, he ain’t even your son, so STFU and get me another brewski and a pack of weeds.
By TheWyzyrd
November 7, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this
Interesting stuff from today’s Chicago Sun-Times:
(http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/1266013,CST-SPT-cub07.article)
By Steve from OH
November 7, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this
Efrim, wouldn’t put Parker ahead of Hanson because of where he’s at in their system. Bumgarner is a little more iffy to me. I would say Tillman and Hanson are close, but I’ll give Hanson the nod right now since he’s ML-ready.
Holland and Hanson are very close too.
If I was doing a ranking, it would be Bumgarner, Hanson, Tillman, Feliz, Holland followed by the Oakland guys followed by Parker. It’s just so close though…but you’re right that it matters little since Hanson projects as a top-of-the rotation guy.
By Lee in S GA
November 7, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this
So, The Cubbies are getting Peavy eh? All I can say is thank god, we can all stop talking about this now, and focus on plan B
chipperchop
My thoughts exactly. After all of this discussion about him if he did come to the Braves and he failed to win Cy Young, N.L. MVP and help the Braves to a W.S. appearance in 2009, it would probably be looked at as a failure.
By anti-cooch
November 7, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this
Bear in mind, it requires an intricate understanding of the game of baseball.Coach
well damn T-Ball cooch, that leaves you out from the get-go. you wouldn’t know a pop-fly if it fell on your head in fair territory and dropped into foul.
By Saltywoody
November 7, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this
A. Cuban would be outstanding for the game and it’s unfortunate that he probably won’t ever be a part of it. I’d love to see the cast of characters he’d compile. Maybe he’d even let Desagana Diop pinch hit. I’d buy a “Diop it like it’s Hot” Cubs jersey in a heartbeat.
B. You know what I realized my problem is with the Braves trading someone like Yunel or Frenchy at this point? They’re selling so low. If either goes out this year elsewhere and has a monster year, the Braves are going to have sold them at rock bottom and gotten little to nothing for them. That’s why even though you’re getting a proven ace in return, the Peavy deal is worrisome. If you include Yunel, Morton, AND Schafer? There’s a chance you just traded away two superstars at their lowest value.
I just keep fearing that we’re trading away the next Horacio Ramirez and Grady Sizemore for a shot at an ace that may or may not be able to get us anywhere near the playoffs this year.
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this
For those worried/concerned/wondering about SS if Escobar is traded, Braves would almost certainly trade for or sign another shortstop to take over, not hand it over to Lillibridge, Infante, Prado, etc.
Renteria, Furcal, either Izturis, Lugo, Orlando Cabrera, Hardy, Jack Wilson … I think they’d consider all of the above, all of whom are either free agents or probably available in trade.
By Efrim
November 7, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH
Sorry, I didn’t mean Parker ahead of anyone. I just think those are the guys. They are the top pitching prospects in the minors right now. I think Feliz is the best though. From what I have heard from BA, Law, BP, I’d say Feliz is the #1 pitching prospect in the minors. Highest ceiling with the most probability of reaching it.
By Lou Vales
November 7, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this
Dear David, Thank you for the response. We will agree to disagree. If I might add a bit of hope for Georgia fans—I’m a 69 Florida grad—Florida COULD lose that game to Vandy tomorrow. If they do, and Vandy, Florida and Georgia win out after that game there will be a 3 way tie for 1st place. Tie breakers would be even as far as head to head and division records. I BELIEVE the tie breaker would be whoever has highest ranking in BCS. That would be close with FSU on Florida ‘s schedule and Tech on Georgia’s schedule. Of course if Georgia lost to Auburn—DOUBTFUL—Florida would be tied with vandy and vandy would go with head to head advantage.
By the way, that game Saturday had a bunch of fluky plays and NO WAY Florida is that much better. Things snowballed. Of course with my memories of 4th and Dumb, Richard Washington, and “Run, Lindsey, Run”—I deserve a little flukey at times. It’s objectivity like this that got me banned at Florida message boards. i can’t help it. I say what I think. I think Meyer is abrasive, hate the way he runs up the score, overly secretive AND a VERY GOOD football coach.
By Chillymutt
November 7, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this
I like Yunel but Renteria and Furcal are both available…..
By Joe M.
November 7, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this
I do agree with you that it’s highly unlikely Axelrod is conspiring with Braves. For one thing, both parties are aware of the tampering charges that could arise from such actions. Wren goes out of his way to avoid even the appearance of such stuff.
Really? Because Jake Peavy’s prima donna act rubs me like someone who doesn’t want to be a Brave. I dunno.
So, The Cubbies are getting Peavy eh? All I can say is thank god, we can all stop talking about this now, and focus on plan B
Umm…what? Where have you read that? No where? You say you’re just reading increased Cubs speculation along with the Braves’ speculation as we move closer to Peavy’s trade? Idiot.
By Steve from OH
November 7, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this
Efrim, can’t argue with you on Feliz. Could flipflop the whole list around one way or the other and be able to justify it. Let’s just be happy we’ve got the one that’s closest to ML-ready (and with a #1 ceiling too)!
By TennesseePaul
November 7, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this
I can’t believe this. All this waiting around. Why haven’t the Braves been able to trade: Ryan Langerhans, Pete Orr, Chris Woodward, Mark Redman, Todd Pratt, Corky Miller, and Ruben Gotay for him?
Oh… right.
It’s really sad to think all those guys have been on the Braves team the last few years.
Just out of curiosity, those opposed to trading Yunel for Peavy, what deal would you believe to be fair valued on both ends while maintianing the skill of the Braves?
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this
Joe M, I don’t think it’s Peavy as much as it’s the agent (who’s closes friend with Towers, by the way).
By chipperchop
November 7, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this
Joe M,
Idiot huh? Nice. I know this is not a done deal, but It doesn’t seem to me Peavy wants to be a Brave (with this new nonsense about having to have Escobar stay with the Braves) and now it appears that the Cubs are willing to offer alot more. Towers isn’t budging on Hanson, neither is Frank Wren. Good. Peavy will be a Cub.
By Deep Throat
November 7, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this
For a hunter and an Alabama guy, Peavy sure does come off like a pampered whiner.
Seriously, what to make of his agent’s comments? Pro-Braves? Pro-Cubs? I can’t tell. But they’re beyond absurd. I still want the Braves to get Peavy, but geez is his and his agent’s act getting stale fast.
I don’t know who Peavy thinks he is, but the reality is he isn’t the greatest player in baseball. He is an injury risk (the odds that he gets through his current contract without needing Tommy John seems pretty low), a pitcher with a career 3.80 ERA on the road in his career (4.28 road ERA in 2008) and someone making 15 million a year. The odds he Peavy puts up ace stats in Wrigley (where he has a career 9.00 ERA) in a full season? Pretty low I think.
Peavy and his agent need to cut the crap. Peavy is good, but not as good as their act would suggest. He is just one player with inflated stats from a gigantic ballpark.
By Foot Fetish
November 7, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this
Off topic. If you have always wondered about Dick Morris on Fox, you must go to Google and type in “Morris sucking toes”. The number of sites that will come up is unbelievable. I always saw him as Key West City Councilman. Boy, did I miss that one. Hannity will never bring up the foot fetish, bit I’m surprised the brow beaten lackey Colmes never brought it up.
The Bill Kristol Web Sites are also humorous. You know what the “key’ word is with this one. Always wonder about these sanctimonious people who come across as beacons.
By richbrave
November 7, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this
Nothin’ yet on the PEAVY deal I see.
By Saltywoody
November 7, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this
Pardon me if he’s been mentioned before and I missed it, but have the Braves considered trading for Eric Byrnes at all?
He’d be an outstanding buy-low option, based on the poor year he had last year before he got injured. And he’d fill multiple needs. He’s got speed, he’s got some pop, he appears to be a fairly vocal and fiery guy (which the Braves could use, I think), and I believe his defense is pretty good.
I’d like to see him in left.
The only problem is that I don’t what his contract looks like beyond last year, and it was steadily rising.
Still, he’s only 32 and maybe the Braves could get the Dbacks to eat some of his contract, depending on who they’re willing to offer.
Thoughts?
By Chop Chop
November 7, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this
If I’m Peavy, I want to go to Chicago. They have a better team and more stability (Bobby’s gone soon, folks). I know I mentioned this several times during the season. Free agents (and good players available through trade) know that the legendary manager of the Atlanta Braves is about to hit the road.
The Braves certainly have money to spend. Unfortunately for Frank Wren, so do many other clubs. Wren is fortunate to have the talent to trade for players, but if those players are more concerned about winning than anything else, what does Wren have to sell them on (“Hey! We’ve got all these great kids coming up in a year or two!”)?
That won’t cut it.
I’ve been very pessimistic about this offseason because of the Cox retiring/90 losses last year situation. It’s not that I want Bobby around any longer (I don’t), but I realize that the result of his departure will be a further diminishing of the franchise’s already faded pedigree. Without Bobby (or a winning product), all this organization has to sell is “the future”…or fading memories.
By McFann O
November 7, 2008 2:02 PM | Link to this
Saltywoody Pardon me if he’s been mentioned before and I missed it, but have the Braves considered trading for Eric Byrnes at all?
Oh good heavens…
This is no offense to you, but—Gosh, I hope not!
By J.L.
November 7, 2008 2:04 PM | Link to this
Tennessee Paul: 1.21POST- Think about this one. Morton,Jo Jo. Blanco, Gorkys. Morton and Jo Jo have pitched at the ML level both really have good stuff but suffer in the head department,both could have real good careers.Blanco has some ML experience. Gorkys a ton of promise. Ireally think that S.D. could come out real good, if the two pitchers get there heads straight.
By Mr J
November 7, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this
Foot Fetish,
If you’d like to get off the topic of baseball while on this blog, I’d suggest BBQ, fish tacos, or blues flavored popular music. Used to be pie, also, but that’s from the wayback.
Come to think of it, toe health was also a frequent topic, but never in relation to Dick Morris.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 7, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this
BTW—They’re announcing the AL and NL Silver Sluggers on November 13, plus the AL Cy Young Award.
Why doesn’t the SS get it’s own day? The shoulda done the Gold Gloves on Wednesday, and the Silver Sluggers yesterday. That way, the AL Cy Young doesn’t have to be overshadowed…
By JasonInFl
November 7, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this
Samardzija is not on the table and has a FULL no trade clause. Additionally, it appears that Fontenot is also not yet on the table. Daily Herald Article
By nolie
November 7, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this
You know what I realized my problem is with the Braves trading someone like Yunel or Frenchy at this point? They’re selling so low. If either goes out this year elsewhere and has a monster year, the Braves are going to have sold them at rock bottom and gotten little to nothing for themSaltywoody
With Jeff you are ptobably correct, but you consider getting Peavy as little to nothing? Boy I can’t say I understand that at all.
By Fred
November 7, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this
Anders, Your posts are truly unbelieveable. You make comments that personally attack DOB and the way he does his job, and then you get upset when you perceive a return attack. Have you ever heard of the “golden rule” - treat others as you want to be treated? How do you expect people to treat you when you disrespect them? If you don’t like this blog, or the way DOB facilitates it, why are you a frequent participant? I personally can’t understand why a Mets fan would spend so much time on a Braves blog. And this is not the first time you have personally attacked DOB.
By Peavy what?
November 7, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this
what Peavy thinks he’s too good for Braves? Forget the guy
By N8
November 7, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this
“Some would say you lied here when then presented with the facts of my 11:56 post.”
Let me translate for you all, using the Anders to English handbook.
“Na-Na Na-Na Boo-Boo…. You can’t get me… Na-Na Na-Na Boo-Boo…. You can’t get me!!!” (Spoken with toungue sticking out, thumbs on ears and fingers wiggling from the balcony of a 3rd story apartment to DOB standing on the street corner).
Give up Anders. To quote one of the aliens from the bar in the original Star Wars, as spoken to a young Luke Skywalker….
“My friend doesn’t like you…… I don’t like you either!”
Buh-Bye.
By Dan in NJ
November 7, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this
DOB, I posted this last night,and i’m not sure if you read it.
ok, lets say the braves trade Esco plus others for Peavy. Now you need to replace Esco with.???..lets say Renteria. How much would Renteria cost?
Again. Peavy $16mil + lets say they sign Renteria at $5mil?? That alone will cost the Braves over $20mil
A Shortstop wont come cheap, so why not keep Escobar? Instead of trading him and other propects AND have to pay Peavy $16mil per year and some other SS at least $5mil per year.
Botton line. I believe CC would be cheaper after all is said and done. Hope you understand my point better now. Thanks again in advance.
IF the Braves would sign CC, then go after Grienke with Frenchy as the centerpiece. Which then would allow the Braves to dangle KJ to the Cards. for an OF.
Am I making any sense people??? lol.
By JasonInFL
November 7, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this
Sorry, the info is from a Blog and not an actual news article…
By nolie
November 7, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this
Eric Byrnes at all?
He’d be an outstanding buy-low option, based on the poor year he had last year before he got injured. And he’d fill multiple needs. He’s got speed, he’s got some pop, he appears to be a fairly vocal and fiery guy (which the Braves could use, I think), and I believe his defense is pretty good.
I’d like to see him in left.Salty
with a 97 OPS+ he is basically Jeff Francoeur and just about as erratic is you look at his seasons, plus he has an OBP of .325 which is making way too many outs. I’ll pass.
BTW I guess you were kidding about including Horacio Ramirez in that traded away comment? Kinda hard to tell since you also mentioned Grady.
By Jersey Gil
November 7, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this
My Prediction: The Bravos After December Winter Meeting ,and all the other Rich Team sign everyone(CC,Peavy,Penny,etc) not choice to end up with Ben Sheets & Raul Ibanez. Rotation will be: JJ,Sheets,Campy,Hampton,Morton, with Smoltzy in the Pen. Hanson come up later in the Mid season after a minor league tour in Gwinnet and Huddy in Aug/sept. And will win the East Division.MVP will be Frenchy.JJ Cy winner.
By Lew
November 7, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this
Time for the Wimps to realize you ain’t sh!t if you ain’t been laid low by DOB on the blog once or twice. Put on your big boy Underoos and flipping get over it. You’re as bad (if not worse) than those who can’t live if DOB doesn’t answer their repeated inane questions. DOB, DOB, you never answered me. DOB. Sheesh.
TommyP-Dude, I’m not giving you grief anymore. Don’t go away mad Dude, it’s all part of the game. If you think THIS is contentious, you should have seen life when The Stinky Blogger was here.
Nathan-Can we raise hell and still respect one another? Remember the Marcus Giles diatribe? Pretty cool Dude, telling Anders to take a pill. We all need our meds, don’t we?
Veer-If the Cubs DO get Peavy (whatever), it will just provide one more perplexing reason as to why they won’t win a damn thing-for the 101st straight year. They had probably the best team in the NL the past two years. One playoff round and out. Typical and never-ending.
By ncscoots
November 7, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this
TPaul, this is just me spitballin’, but removing Escobar from the equation changes it radically. I don’t know if the Padres could then shop Greene, so there would have to be some compensation there to account for that. Plus, how far out from ready are the Padres willing to go for the returned players? Don’t know.
I’d assume they have to get back a ML-ready pitcher absolutely (Reyes or Morton), Hernandez (if they are “lukewarm” on Schafer), at least one pitching prospect (from Medlin, Rohrbough, Locke, Evarts, et al), and Flowers. That’s four instead of the three bandied about, adding Flowers and, say, Rohrbough, instead of Escobar, since C is also going to be one of their needs.
But, heck, without knowing how the Padres view their needs and priorities, all that’s just a WAG. But it seems fair, in terms of the quality of the players going west.
By Marty
November 7, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this
Coach - Thanks for showing that you’re as much of an a* as the others on the blog have been saying — I hadn’t been treated to it, myself, until now.
So, apparently you think that you’ll convince others to accept QS as a useful stat (it’s not) by mindlessly parroting Bill James’ tired philosophy about why one of the stupidest stats out there today has validity (it doesn’t), and combining that with what you believe to be a clever comment about it requiring a deep understanding of baseball to grasp (it doesn’t), and somehow implying that you’re smarter — or less “retarded” than I am (you’re not).
I don’t expect someone of your ilk to understand this, but the problem with the “quality start” is and always has been that it defines what is actually a mediocre start. No one would be beating down the door of a guy with a career 4.50 ERA; although that player could have a 100 percent rate of quality starts. It’s just another failed attempt to fill in the blanks left by traditional stats; I applaud James’ efforts, but it’s really a horrible stat.
All of that having been said, stop being a jerk and shut up until you have something useful to say.
By Don't Trade Franceour, Sheesh
November 7, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this
Good link JasonInFl…
Man, Talk about raiding the farm…the Cubs are blind to the talent they are tossing away, even going so far as to hold their trades of minor league talent for All-Star players up as benchmarks for their success.
I would be totally surprised if the Cubs can win that division again next year. As the Pirates, Reds, Astros and Brewers continue to improve with homegrown, young talent, the Cubs are selling their future for the hope of just a few brief chances at postseason glory. Here is to another 100 years of futility.
By Salty
November 7, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this
nolie Please be careful! That was Saltywoody, not me! I got all shook up…I know my memory ain’t as sharp as always, but sheesh! I went through all 700+ posts thinking I’d been bloggin’ in my sleep! LOL!
By Salty
November 7, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this
Marty No one’s immune from the world-reknowned Coach. Everyone gets splattered! He won’t stop being a jerk and shut up…that’s why we scroll. You ever driven in Florida during ‘love bug’ season? If so, just consider him a nuisance swarm on an otherwise nice drive to the beach! LOL!
By Lew
November 7, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this
Salty-Dude, where you been?
By Chuck James is solid until the 6th!! (Formerly Steve-O)
November 7, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this
DOB
I’ve been coming here for 3 years based soley on your intelligent input, ability to always get the inside info and your humor. I don’t even know where to start but you are really on a roll over the last few days..
I’m with you on being called a “liar” in public. That wouldn’t be right. Let us know when someone calls you that on the blog.
HAHA
And I don’t even know where to begin with Veer …….
Hey Veer, Your inside sources suck, what did your 6 year old daughter give you all the finalized Peavy-to-Cubs info? I would definitely be ANGRY if that was the case, but dude you just had a public meltdown.
By JasonInFL
November 7, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this
Don’t Trade Franceour, Sheesh, it will be interesting to which of the names listed are actually on the list. I would be surprised if the Cubs include their minor league pitcher of the year or Vitters. But, if they do, then good for them. I want Peavy in a bad way, but I have to give props to FW for sticking to his guns. Hanson’s rise has been meteoric in the last few months and appears to be the first, true legit ace type pitching prospect the Braves have had in years…much, much different than the “hype” of Jo-Jo, Chuck, Morton, or anyone else that comes to mind, including Neftali Perez.
By Saltywoody
November 7, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this
Nolie
I actually meant Hanley Ramirez. I went back and looked at that comment and felt like an idiot.
Although, I guess if they trade Jo-Jo, they certainly could be trading the next Horacio Ramirez.
By JasonInFL
November 7, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this
Lew, dude, did you get my e-mail? What’s up…letme know if something changes and you are able to come down this way during ST!!!
By BravesFanInRockies
November 7, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this
Lou Vales,
I’ve razzed you a couple of times, but as DOB said, sport/entertainment and the real world rarely intersect.
Also, as much as I think Boras poisons civilized society, remember that his job is to generate the greatest income for his clients. He’s like a criminal defense lawyer; his obligation is not to satisfy the greater good, but to do the best he can for the people who hire him.
The process, however, is not pleasant to witness, or uplifting.
By Original Jon
November 7, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but, Bruce Miles of the Daily Herald wrote, and I quote ‘One name that is definitely NOT on the table is Cubs right-hander Jeff Samardzija. Samardzija’s name appeared in this column today’ and ‘Samardzija has a FULL no-trade in his deal’ not a partial.
By Salty
November 7, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
Lew Just been a ‘lurkin’…decided to chime in! All’s well in the ‘not yet frozen hinterlands’, yet? LOL!
Scoots…Clemson coach…who ya pickin’?
By BravesFanInRockies
November 7, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this
And about Byrnes —
Yep, he’s basically another Francouer with more range in the OF. And he’s due to get $11 MM each of the next two years.
At least Jeffrey will break your heart for less …
By Lew
November 7, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this
Jason-I got it. Guess maybe I should answer it? I won’t be down for Spring Training this year. Just can’t deal with it this time around. In 2010 for sure.
By cameron
November 7, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this
I say the Braves offer (Yunel Escobar, Charlie Morton, Gorkys Hernandez, Jeff Locke) for Jake Peavy. And then trade for JJ Hardy. He hit .283 with 23 homeruns and 74 RBIs last year. They have that prospect coming up(Alcides Escobar). So why not trade Escobar for Peavy and get JJ Hardy.
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 7, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this
RC Out of curiosity, I looked up Brian McCann to see who his comparables were.
There are some pretty good guys on there…Under “Similar Batters Through Age 24”, there are three HOF’ers—Tony Lazzeri, Ernie Banks, and Yogi Berra. Not bad company!
By MizzouBravesFan
November 7, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this
Looks like the entire Peavy to Cubs thing was blown way out of proportion by the media…what a shocker lol!
I figured it was a media driven story from the start.
By tlj
November 7, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
If Towers thinks the Cubs offer is the best, he should stop apply the brakes, stop the train now and make the deal. Everyone knows this is a ploy to get the Braves to add to the list.
Like a lot of you guys, I’m tired of all of this. Let’s make it easy for Towers, withdraw the offer and let’s go plan B. Jimmy Cricket it’s not like Peavy can walk on water or something.
We may not get a # 1 pitcher like Peavy but at least we will have a defense to play behind whoever we get. Let’s sign one decent FA and trade for someone like Vasquez at Chicago. Then trade for a LF and let’s play ball.
The cubs will have the best pitching staff in the universe and still get beat in the playoffs, remember they are still the cubbies. The padres will have the pitching they want, just most of it at the AAA level.
The braves will be just fine.
By nolie
November 7, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
November 7, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this
nolie Please be careful! That was Saltywoody, not me! I got all shook up…I know my memory ain’t as sharp as always, but sheesh! I went through all 700+ posts thinking I’d been bloggin’ in my sleep! LOL!Salty
you’re right and I’m sorry. I typed out his full name in my first response, I don’t know why I didn’t in my second. I’ll make an effort to be more careful…700 posts is just too many to have to look through to see if you’ve been sleeping well.
By Josh H
November 7, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
I thought you guys might find this interesting. It’s from SI today. Here is the link
They did a comparison of the best baserunners in baseball, excluding stolen bases. Things like running from 1st to 3rd on a single, 2nd to home on a single, and 1st to home on a double.
Number 4 on that list is Kelly Johnson.
By JakeInFL
November 7, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this
Lew, no worries my friend. Hopefully, I will still be here in 2010, so we will get together! Anyone else planning on going to ST? If so, let me know. I will be there every Saturday and Sunday!
By Bluestreak
November 7, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this
I think I read it from DOB…but don’t quote me on that, but I was wondering if you guys would be happy with the following:
Leaves one SP to sign, but not sure who is legitimately on the list for Wren. Everyone I like has been shot down so far (I still say Penny on the cheap)
While I like Esco and don’t want to trade him, Hudson might be a good enough replacement to make it worth the loss to get Peavy.
Thoughts?
By Efrim
November 7, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
Cameron
What do you think we offer for J.J. Hardy? Because I don’t think it will be too easy to get him.
Braves might have to go the free agent route after the Peavy trade. Can’t give up anymore. At least I don’t think they should.
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
Original Jon, thanks for the clarification. Bruce would certainly know the Cubs and their contracts better than me. As I said, I couldn’t imagine them trading him anyway.
By Lew
November 7, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this
Salty-It’s been 60 degrees up here this week. Nathan is the one battling blizzards right now. It’s supposed to cool off this week, though.
By JasonInFL
November 7, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
Sorry if this has already been posted, but I don’t remember seeing it:
“Investigating several different avenues to improve their rotation, the Atlanta Braves, in addition to talking trade with San Diego for Jake Peavy, also have approached the Florida Marlins about left-hander Scott Olsen (8-11, 4.20 ERA in 33 starts in 2008). Texas also is believed to have inquired about Olsen, who is eligible for arbitration this winter.”
From a Scott Miller article. It is a bullet point at the bottom.
By BosnianBaller
November 7, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
This Peavy thing is getting annoying like the Brett Farve situation last summer.Let’s get him and move on.How long does it take to make a trade.If it’s down to three teams it should maybe take a week.
By Steve from OH
November 7, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this
CBS Sportsline reports that the Braves are willing to package Yunel Escobar, Gorkys Hernandez and (Morton/Reyes/Medlen) in a package for Peavy and are now the frontrunners. Sounds to me (based on the way that this article was written) that Hernandez was the sticking point. So…Hernandez, Escobar, and Reyes? Has FW been reading my blog posts, lol?
By Lew
November 7, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
Bluestreak-Hudson will be asking for $10 mil per or more. I just don’t see how we could pay Peavy, get another top rotation pitcher, get a power hitting left fielder and pay our shortstop $10 mil in addition. The math just won’t support that deal.
By TennesseePaul
November 7, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
NCScoots: Flowers seems like a no brainer to me. But the Padres appear to be spinning Hundley like he’s a genious. His numbers fly in the face of that idea though.
I can see where the Padres would want players closer to major league ready. Flowers is still “low” in the system so they might not view him as “ready”. It’d seem odd since he has just as much service time in the minors as Hundley had when they pulled him up. And Flowers has had even more success than Hundley during that time.
That said, Perhaps JoJo and Morton along with Flowers and another lesser or lower guy could be more enticing? Might be too much in some minds. I’m not a particularly big fan of JoJo HoRam, I mean Reyes, myself. But he does have experience, and he is from California, and he could certainly benefit from that park. Morton could be good as well. The climate alone might brighten his spirits more.
But I don’t see this trade happening without something of value being exchanged. And in that since, Yunel is something of value. Apparently the Braves have put Hanson on the same value as Yunel. Maybe a little lower, considering they won’t even budge on him.
Replacing Yunel will be tough. I’m not as high on Lillibridge as when we obtained him and there doesn’t appear to be another short stop in the system anywhere. So moving Yunel would require a long term plan for replacement. And that would more than likely be through FA. And there it gets skinny.
We’ll see. I’m think the Braves are still in the lead as they don’t require a more complex arrangment with multiple teams to get a deal done.
By Josh H
November 7, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
Cameron:
I’d hope you could make that trade by leaving Morton of the list.
Escobar isn’t a prospect. He’s a top SS defensively and won’t be too shabby with the bat either. That should preclude you from having to offer Morton.
Gorkys I’m okay with losing. Not because he’ll end up being a bad player, but because we already fleeced Detroit with that deal by getting Jurrjens. Gorkys, to me, is nothing more than a trade piece. Schafer was the guy we groomed…and they guy I think should get a shot in the outfield.
But as DOB said in a past blog, Morton is not Jo Jo. He obviously had lost some velocity on his fast ball but, was still able to put together some quality innings out there. His stuff is disgusting.
Imagine a rotation of Peavy, (#2), Jurrjens, Morton and Hanson. With Hudson coming back in 2009, and we’re able to plug in other guys while Hanson has more time to develop.
Speaking of which, I’m really beginning to think that the 2nd veteran pitcher we go after should be a lefty.
By Original Jon
November 7, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this
I still do not want to see Escobar go, because who else could we get to replace him. And also, whats with all this talk about Peavy not approving the trade if Yunel was part of the deal???
By Original Jon
November 7, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this
No problem DOB
By Original Jon
November 7, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
Apparently the Braves have talked to the Marlins about Scott Olsen
By Marty
November 7, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
cameron - The knock on J.J. Hardy is that he’s maddeningly inconsistent at the plate. He basically hit almost all of those 23 homers in about a 2-month period last season and did nothing the remainder of the year (only a slight exaggeration). That having been said, I don’t know if he’s available, but if he is, I wouldn’t mind making a play on him, either. Young, cheap, and plays good defense, with a little pop in his bat. I don’t know that the Brewers are looking to ditch him, but good thought if they are.
By Bluestreak
November 7, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
Lew - thanks for pointing that out. Wasn’t sure what he would ask, but I agree that would be too much for us to afford.
What about Lugo? Too expensive, too?
By Efrim
November 7, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this
I feel like we would of heard Flowers name by now, or even Cole Rohrbough. I am a little suprised that neither has been mentioned in any of these talks. It’s quite possible that Wren would rather trade Escobar, Morton, Gorkys than a large prospect package.
By nolie
November 7, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this
Number 4 on that list is Kelly Johnson.JoshH
Hoooorah, I was just telling someone on another board yesterday that Kelly was an excellent base runner. Now I can back it up with a link…..not that they know any more than I do…oops sounding like coach now. LOL.
By BravesFan79
November 7, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this
Man…. replacing KJ would be SO much easier than replacing Escobar. Escobar is more than a .300 hitter, hes CLUTCH!!
No Tex, no Escobar….man our offense is gonna look weak next year. Isnt there ANY one of our SS prospects we can give up except Esco??
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH, so we have a new leader in the just-released Peavy Trade Standings?
Not meaning to be smart a$$, it’s just that every time a different website or newspaper or radio station or whoever else posts that so-and-so is the leader and throws a different name or some variation of the packages already reported, we jump on it like it’s something official.
Folks, this is what happens in the 24/7 news cycle when everyone feels the constant need to make a headline, whether a development warrants it or not. This is all about different writers and commentators having different sources, some better connected than others, some with obvious agendas, and some merely speculating while others actually know what they’re talking about. You’ll drive yourselves nuts allowing yourselves to believe every new report as the gospel.
By ncscoots
November 7, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this
Salty, no inside poop yet on the next coach; haven’t heard a word that’s more than a wish-list rumor, frankly. I would have thought by now that I would have heard at least ONE solid name, but nothing so far.
By Tomas
November 7, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
Cameron I agree with you.
The Cubs offer seems very good, but mlb traderumors has reported Jeff Samardzija has a full no trade clause and is not available. Fontenot, hasn’t been on the mix either.
The rumor was Jeff Samardzija,Felix Pie, Sean Marshall, Ronny Cedeno, Kevin Hart, and Donald Veal. And also Mike Fontenot or Rich Harden, which are not going to be traded.
So really the offer would be Felix Pie, Sean Marshall, Ronny Cedeno, Kevin Hart, and Donald Veal for Jake Peavy.
The Braves offer was Yunel Escobar, Charlie Morton, and Jordan Schafer(in which the padres interest is mild, modest). But with the Cubs improving there offer, now the Braves have added Gorkys Hernandez instead of Jordan Schafer.
So now the offer is Yunel Escobar(big potential, great defense, good obp), Charlie Morton(one of the best young pitching prospects in the organization definitively top 5), and Gorkys Hernandez(was selected to play in the futures team, and is a very exciting player because of his speed) for Jake Peavy.
Escobar, Morton, and Hernandez for Peavy is a much better offer than Felix Pie, Sean Marshall, Ronny Cedeno, Kevin Hart, and Donald Veal for Jake Peavy.
Escabar beats everybody, Morton has more potential than Marshall, and Gorkys beats Pie, Hart, and Veal. It’s quality, not quantity.
But what really worries me, is Jake Peavy’s comment that suggest that he doesn’t think the Braves can be competitive without Escobar. Bottom line Peavy will make the Braves competitive. Escobar is not an impact player Peavy is, and the Braves have the resources to get a SS.
The FA SS market is very thin. A bunch of old burned guys with bad backs or knees, and not cheap. I really like JJ Hardy. Hardy hits for more power, runs better, has a better glove, and Escobar’s arm is slighty better. Hardy might be on the market because of prospect Alcides Escobar, and their desire to make money to offer Sabathia the best deal.
What kind of players would the Hardy trade demand? Obviously Hanson, Heyward, and Freeman are untouchable. Maybe Jo-jo Reyes, Todd Redmond, and Tyler Flowers for JJ Hardy. I don’t think they’re interested in Kelly(why would they with their own Kelly Rickey Weeks), and we can’t trade Schafer, because we already traded Gorkys, maybe they’d be interested in Josh Anderson, or Gregor Blanco. Matt Diaz, and Brandon Jones are other options.
If we get Peavy a lot of FA players like Dempster, AJ Burnett, or Derek Lowe would be more excited of playing for Atlanta. Hopefully sign Dempster for 5yrs 72 million, and Pat Burrell for 4 years 58 million. On top of that sign Junichi Tazawa for 3 years 12 million(something like that).
But if we sign all those big players, we either add a few million dollars to the payroll, or let Ohman, Hampton, and Glavine or Smoltz go. Resign Norton for 1 yr 1.75 million, and Smoltz or Glavine for 1 yr 1.25 million.
Personally I’d pick Smoltz insteado of Glavine, but he may want more money, if he does let him finish his awesome career elsewhere.
By Bobby's Cox
November 7, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
Efrim
Your 11:54 am post of Kevin Goldstein’s comments is exactly how I feel, and the way I see it.
The Braves are in a bind in that most of their top prospects are 1-2 years away. I’d never expect fans or the GM to just sit back and wait for these prospects to develop, but you almost want that to happen.
By Lew
November 7, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
Bluestreak-I imagine Lugo would cost a good bit. Not too sure I like him, either, but that might just be me. He’s played for two teams I follow-The Rays and The Red Sox. I just wasn’t impressed with him at either place.
Like I said, I’m not sure that’s a rational evaluation or not.
By Bobby's Cox
November 7, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this
JJ Hardy?
Are you serious? That guy is streakier than our 2nd baseman and our Right Fielder. This team needs some consistent hitters. If we trade Escobar and replace him with Hardy, I’m afraid it won’t matter who’s on the mound.
By Shaun
November 7, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this
I don’t expect someone of your ilk to understand this, but the problem with the “quality start” is and always has been that it defines what is actually a mediocre start. No one would be beating down the door of a guy with a career 4.50 ERA; although that player could have a 100 percent rate of quality starts. It’s just another failed attempt to fill in the blanks left by traditional stats; I applaud James’ efforts, but it’s really a horrible stat.
First of all, Bill James did not invent the Quality Start stat. John Lowe invented it in 1985 while working for the Philadelphia Inquirer.
Second, a 4.50 ERA is generally mediocre, you are right. But a Quality Start a 4.50 ERA is just the cut-off point.
Here’s something from the Quality Start page on wikipedia:
Bill James addressed this [you’re criticism] in his 1987 Baseball Abstract, saying the hypothetical example (a pitcher going exactly 6 innings and allowing exactly 3 runs) was extremely rare amongst starts recorded as quality starts, and that he doubted any pitchers had an ERA over 3.20 in their quality starts. This was later confirmed through computer analysis of all quality starts recorded from 1984 to 1991, which found that the average ERA in quality starts during that time period was 1.91.
Rob Neyer addressed Quality Starts in an April, 2006 column. He looked at QS in 1985 and in 2005 to see if the way Lowe defined QS holds up.
Neyer discovered that teams won Quality Starts at a .673 clip in 1985 and a .674 clip in 2005.
He also discovered that the aggregate ERA in Quality starts was 1.88 in 1985 and 2.04 in 2005.
In non-Quality Starts, pitchers posted ERAs of 7.37 in 1985 and 7.70 in 2005.
Does at least six innings and no more than three earned runs seem unscientific and arbitrary? Yes. Is it a “horrible” and useless stat? Far from it.
By BravesFanInRockies
November 7, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this
Lugo’s pretty expensive and not very good. He’s owed $27 mm over the next three years. (Almost rather have Greene, since he has some pop.)
Jack Wilson’s pretty lousy offensively but his contract is $7.25 MM you can get rid of him at the end of the season.
Renteria’s looking better all the time!
By Robert
November 7, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this
DOB
Please tell me Hanson is off limits no matter what
By Bobby's Cox
November 7, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this
You’ll drive yourselves nuts allowing yourselves to believe every new report as the gospel.
Hence my phrase from last night: Monkey Circus.
By Lew
November 7, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this
Bluestreak-Just checked Lugo out and he made $9.2 mil this season. He is an average hitter with zero power and a fairly low OBP to go with his career .271 BA. Not too sure he would be worth it even at half the price, but considering he would make as much as Hudson-I’d rather have Hudson.
By Hiawatha Terrell Wade
November 7, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this
DOB, a lot of the packages other teams are offering the Pads seem lackluster to me. If Wren offers KJ, Gorkys, Flowers, Morton/JoJo and throw-in arm, that won’t get it done? I don’t see any chance Towers does better than that package.
By Bobby's Cox
November 7, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this
*It’s quite possible that Wren would rather trade Escobar, Morton, Gorkys than a large prospect package. *
Unfortunately, it’s about quality, not quantity that gets these trades done. If it was about quantity, I think the deal would be done already.
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this
Looks like I better get another blog up before we get up in the high 900s and this one does the inevitable crash-and-burn again.
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this
Monkey Circus sounds like a good alt-rock band name.
Oops, there I go wasting a valuable comment. Gotta conserve as we approach 900, until I can get a new blog up. I’ll make it a brief one so we have a fresh canvas, but not a whole lot new to report.
By Bravestillidie
November 7, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this
Denizens, I think one thing we need to remember here is that Frank in most cases is smarter than we are. He knows exactly what is going on in these talks, we don’t. Stop going all crazy about losing Excobar. Look, I love the kid, but do you really think Frank would just send him packing without having a plan in place to act on immediately.
Think for two seconds. Perhaps this is why the trade is taking so long. Maybe Wren wants to make sure we have the replacement lined up before we complete the deal.
Look I don’t know any more than anybody here does, but we all know Frank does. It’s his job too. I think Frank has been very shrewd and successful as a GM so far. Forget all the injuries, they can’t be blamed on him, we knew a couple may get hurt but not everyone. He has definately gained my vote of confidence with everything he has done so far.
We need to all just chill out and let this fall where it may. For right now, it’s in Frank we trust, and I do entirely. He has done nothing but impress me so far, and especially the way he is hardballing right now. I love this.
BTID
By Tomas
November 7, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this
Imagine how would the team look with the additions of Burrell, Dempster, Peavy, and Tazawa.
P Jake Peavy
SP Jake Peavy
Really this team wouldn’t have any holes, and a lot of depth.
By Bobby's Cox
November 7, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this
shaun
Nice post. If I could add one thing to it, I would add that you started hearing the term quality start more and more during baseball’s HR era. In that time, if you held your opponent to 3 runs in 6 innings you’d almost be guaranteed a win.\
Even still, I remember a few debates on the blog during the season regarding that when Braves and others held their opponents to 3 runs or less, the W-L records were impeccable.
I agree the “quality start” is a horrible stat, but not so horrible when talking about your 3-5 starters.
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this
Robert, he’s off limits. There, I told you. And it’s true.
By Josh H
November 7, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this
Heading out for the weekend.
Still have to say that if there was any way we can get JoJo in that package instead of Morton, fire away. Even if we have to include another lesser body.
Escobar for Peavy is the centerpiece.
By ncscoots
November 7, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
TPaul, Efrim, yes, it IS surprising that Flowers is completely off the radar, in the floated packages anyway. But whether it is that Wren doesn’t want to move quantity or that the Padres want closer-to-ready, who knows? One or both, I guess.
Man, I hate losing that Escobar, LOL. I once envisioned Andrus and Escobar in the middle of the diamond for a decade for this team, and now neither one of them may be in the org. That’s some sucky stuff, but baseball goes on. What the heck.
By N8
November 7, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this
Josh H
“Gorkys I’m okay with losing. Not because he’ll end up being a bad player, but because we already fleeced Detroit with that deal by getting Jurrjens. Gorkys, to me, is nothing more than a trade piece. Schafer was the guy we groomed…and they guy I think should get a shot in the outfield.”
Very well said. Not sure Wren feels the same way. But it’s certainly close to realiy, if the Braves are still high on young Jordan, which I think they are. If we didn’t have him to lean on or groom, then keeping Gorkys around would be essential.
THIS JUST IN:
The Braves are frontrunners to acquire Mark Teixeira from the Texas Rangers. What a great day that will be!!!
BIG NEWS
What’s that? That link is almost two years old? Oh. I just happened to see it on the internet and wasn’t sure whether to take it seriously or not.
Sorry. My bad.
By Salty
November 7, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this
DOB…it’s the ‘no matter what’ that Robert really wants to hear! LOL! Can’t fault him, either!
Scoots Leach is intriguing, gotta admit. Others, less so…perhaps DB will be lightning in a bottle again, 30 years after the other Alabama grad! Clemson does like coaches with ‘Bama connections. Braveheart, butt out! LOL!
By Robert
November 7, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
DOB,
You made my day
By Greg in TN
November 7, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this
Afternoon denizens…
I think Lew’s right, we may have to all grab snow shovels and dig N8 out of a blizzard. Count me in, I’m not getting much use out of a snow shovel here (and haven’t in several years).
Tough to handicap the race to Peavy with columnists and folks from all over putting the Cubs ahead one moment, the Braves the next, the Dodgers coming from out of the, ahem, blue. Reminds me of the tool race at the ballpark (usually root for the hammer, obviously, but hammer never seems to win on nights I am there). There’ll be a big slide into home plate and then somebody will be dancing up and down with Peavy in tow once the dust clears.
It feels like the Braves and Padres are inching closer to a deal, one that will ship Escobar out to lovely San Diego (and it truly is in every sense of the word except for winning baseball for the homestanding Padres). It will sting to lose Escobar, and I’d hate to lose Morton, but I’m still bullish on the idea of getting a proven ace under contract through 2012. The thought of having Huddy coming back in 2010 with Peavy and JJJ, having Tommy Hanson there is enticing to this denizen.
Can’t say I’m too surprised with news out of Chicago that MLB would say to Mark Cuban, “Thanks, but no thanks.” Another denizen pointed out that Cuban would love to own the Pirates, and my best friend, A Pirates fan, has told me he’d love such an arrangement. Not sure if the answer would be different in that type of situation, but I do think part of the reason is the current establishment would not appreciate some of the antics that come with Cuban as an owner. I think he’d suffer from Jerry Jones syndrome. His fan base would adore him to be sure, and everyone else wouldn’t be able to stand him.
By Greg in TN
November 7, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this
Just a thought…
Perhaps we get Time Warner to start a new network over on Techwood Drive and we can call it PNN - Peavy News Network. All Peavy, All The Time.
By mbatl
November 7, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this
I think J.J. Hardy would be a great acquisition if we traded Escobar for Peavy.
With Hardy’s good bat and defense at SS, we could afford to trade KJ for Ludwick, and move Prado into the 2B slot. (I know the Braves have said they wouldn’t trade both MI, but this just makes too much sense!)
A lineup of Schafer, Hardy, Chipper, Ludwick, McCann, Kotchman, Frenchy and Prado works just fine for me. And it’s affordable for the next 2 years (til the young cavalry arrives).
The only “big money” spent would be Peavy, and that leaves plenty of room for another starter and other pieces via free agency.
Not sure what it would take to get Hardy - probably more than we could come up with - but if we could, we’d be in business.
By AdirondackDave
November 7, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this
Good one, Greg in Tenn.
By Bobby's Cox
November 7, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this
It kinda flew off the radar that the Yankees declined the $6 million offer on Demaso Marte.
I would love to have him in the Braves bullpen. He pitched good for Pittsburgh last year, not so good for the Yanks.
If the Braves could snag him that would be a good pick up to bolster the bullpen. Not sure if Marte is looking for $6 mil a year, but if the Braves could offer a multi-year deal for around $4 mil a year, that would be nice. The Yankees supposedly are going to offer him a multi-year deal, even though they had to pay $250,000 to buyout the option.
I’ll repost on the new blog if it comes up soon.
By Thrillhouse44
November 7, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this
Seriously, what is it going to take to have BravesFan79 banned? I hate even acknowledging the boy, but enough already.
By BamaBravesFan
November 7, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this
Looks like that Renteria trade ( if the above rumor of Esco, Gorkys and Jojo/morton/medlen ) is the gift that keeps on giving!
ROLL TIDE!
By N8
November 7, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this
Lew & Greg
Thanks for the thoughts, but the blizard has already passed, and I was up at 7:00 AM this morning getting the snow-blower and shovel out for their ‘spring training” run. 6” in 12 hours is NOTHING.
Considering it was in the 50’s and 60’s last weekend, I’m not complaining one bit. School was closed today (that’s hard to do around here), and they already had Monday and Tuesday off. So it looks like a long weekend around my house…..loud anyhow.
Totally agree on the nonsense of MLB not wanting Cuban in the sport. What they should do is tell him he can buy a team, but it has to be one of the teams that don’t spend money on payroll, like the Royals.
But banning him from joining their club is silly at best. Selig is a bumbling fool who should have been ousted after the AS game fiasco.
DOB, the country/rock band I’m in now (one of two bands), just about went with Redneck Circus for our band name, but me and another guy got over-ridden on that one. Thought it was catchy and obnoxious…. just the way a bar band should be.
By Operation S.O.B.
November 7, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this
Save Our BravesFan79!
Do not ban him! His posts are smart, witty and a good read. Leave him be.
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this
Thrillhouse, that last one should do the trick (I thought it had already been taken care of, but apparently he slithered through the cracks or used a different computer.
By nolie
November 7, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this
I once envisioned Andrus and Escobar in the middle of the diamond for a decade for this team, and now neither one of them may be in the org. That’s some sucky stuff, but baseball goes on. What the heckScoots
I sent you a box of big ol’ puffy tissues, bro. Hope they help….actually although I don’t think quite as highly of him as you do, I kinda hate to lose him too.
By Lew
November 7, 2008 5:27 PM | Link to this
Band names? How about Disenfranchised Rebel?
By Andrew
November 7, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this
Is it true that Gorky is involved now
By Steve from OH
November 7, 2008 5:42 PM | Link to this
DOB, it’s all good. I have a weakness for posting those rumors. I’ll try to restrain myself next time.
By Steve from OH
November 7, 2008 5:42 PM | Link to this
DOB, it’s all good. I have a weakness for posting those rumors. I’ll try to restrain myself next time.
By Lew
November 7, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this
Nathan-Know what you mean, Dude. I don’t even get the driveway plowed for less than 6 inches. It’s amazing what good snow tires will drive through.
By StingerSplash
November 7, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this
Whatever happened to Soul Asylum?
By Bobby's Cox
November 7, 2008 6:01 PM | Link to this
Is it true that Gorky is involved now
I think the strategy to take is to come on the blog, get updated/join discussion, go away for a few days, come back and re-check. That way, you don’t get caught up in every little rumor and don’t have to let O’Brien worry about hurrying home from an offseason concert to get a new blog up since the other has crashed. I’m sure the AJC and its advertisers like all the comments, but seriously, inquiring about every rumor seems tiresome.
Thanks for all the info this week DOB. A week from today is the 14th, the day other teams are allowed to talk to, and sign free agents. Few have said a Peavy deal could happen before that date, so teams can move forward. Next week should be interesting. See you all in a few days.
By Doc Holliday
November 7, 2008 6:11 PM | Link to this
DOB I understand what you say…….Prado is not a SS and will no field like yunel did. All Im saying is that the combination of his great skills hitting and fielding plus the addition of Peavy……..would be enough to make up for the absence of yunel. Prado wont be GREAT at SS but he will not look as bad as KJ at 2B. Im pretty sure of that, even with his limited arm strength and fielding range, which I do understand is nothing but average for a SS or maybe a little bit below. No reason for it not to get better.
But as I asked yesterday……….
Wouldnt you be OK with Prado at SS if you were getting Peavy as a compensation?
Problem is I understand that the Braves are willing to give up Shafer or Heyward………..thats a thing I dont really want to happen. I understand JoJo or Morton might be gone also but I dont have a problem with that.
By Chuck James is solid until the 6th!! (Formerly Steve-O)
November 7, 2008 6:13 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB what is the status on Rafael Soriano? Are the Braves Brass still concerned with all of his “mysterious” injuries from last season?
By JasonInFL (formerly ME)
November 7, 2008 6:19 PM | Link to this
What short-term memories people have…didn’t the Braves win the division for something like…oh, I don’t know…14 straight years? Yes, they haven’t been that great for the last couple of years. But, my word, the front office hasn’t completely lost their ability to run a club. I am sure FW will try and plug the gap if Escobar is part of the Peavy trade…the more I think about the comments from his agent in the article that has been posted, the more annoyed I get. We aren’t talking about the Pirates here.
By siskel
November 7, 2008 6:20 PM | Link to this
DOB
I have heard Scott Olsen’s name tossed around as a possible target for the Braves, but what about Javier Vasquez or Edwin Jackson, or Andy Sonnanstine. I’ve heard those names floated but not really with the Braves any chance? What about Milton Bradley too?
By Andrew
November 7, 2008 6:22 PM | Link to this
cool
By Lew
November 7, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this
DocHolliday-In a word, No.
By Joe M.
November 7, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this
combination of his great skills hitting
What is the weather like there in Fantasy Land?
By flange1
November 7, 2008 6:39 PM | Link to this
Doc Holliday,
Last time I reacted a bit too harshly to your Prado at SS suggestion.
I like Prado and would like to see him have a chance to play everyday at some point to see how good he is. He has a great attitude and hits the ball!
But he is not a SS.
Even with FW saying he wouldn’t trade KJ and Escobar in the same year, I believe that he feels that the combination of Prado, Infante and Lillibridge can handle 2B and the IF back up rolls.
If we could get a power hitting outfielder for KJ, I would make the deal and sign Edgar R. to play short and mentor the 3 young infielders.
But Prado should play 2B not SS. Maybe backup at 3B, SS and 1B but if he plays full time, it should be at 2B.
By Salty
November 7, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this
Lew and N8 The last year living in NJ (March ‘93 and Jan-Feb ‘94), we had over 130 inches of snow those three months. We had a 500 ft asphalt driveway, with a bend halfway. Just a few inches is tough to plow over that length; you can imagine the bills to the guy who plowed for us. Finally, I told him to plow only if we had over 6 inches…we’d tackle (drive over) the rest! Still, N8, lousy start to the year, but it might also be the only snow you see! OK, ok…maybe I bumped my head harder than I thought! LOL!
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 7, 2008 6:53 PM | Link to this
897?
By McFann O –[zzz]
November 7, 2008 6:56 PM | Link to this
Rats.
By David O'Brien
November 7, 2008 7:09 PM | Link to this
Just as the meter is reaching 900 … NEW BLOGGAGE. Now I know it’s the start of another football smorgasbord weekend, but please don’t let me have wasted my time. Let’s discourse, people. (I know, discoursing when we barely know each other … but hey, it’s Friday night.)
By braves fan 4 life
November 7, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this
For evryone here hammering out esco and 2-3 other prospects/players for peavy. Then flipping kj to st. louis for ludwick are assuming that the braves are prepared to lose both their starting middle infielders in the same offseason. Frank wren and DOB already said this is not the case. I believe the holdup with the peavey trade is that frenk wren is looking for ways to get peavy without giving up escobar, hanson, or heyward. If he can do this then he can trade kj for ludwick. He wont trade both. Well thats just my opinion.
By Doc Holliday
November 7, 2008 7:32 PM | Link to this
flange1
Now you are talking…… I think we have enough flexibility not to move forward. Infante and Prado are very good players………not great, but very good. I wouldnt put KJ above Infante nor Prado. Yunel is the obvious choice if you ask anyone to play SS. Thats no a brainer. But we have to pay a price to get Peavy. And it wont be cheap. Would you rather give Hanson away? Im sure you wouldnt. As you mention, we can make thinks work if we get Peavy and some other great pitcher………get Ludwig or some other power hitter and fills the gaps with Infante, Lilly and Prado. There is no reason to be affraid. We have a pitching shortage and need to address it.
We have learned the name of the game……….pitching, pitching, pitching………and then came the phillies. But that is something like the Halley Comet. Get the pitching and start from there. That should be the philosophy.
Problem is……….there will be no back up for middle infielders on the bench other than Lilly…….who hits like a grandma.
By Johnny Rocker
November 7, 2008 8:36 PM | Link to this
last?
By NO MORE BOBBY
November 7, 2008 11:55 PM | Link to this
The guy from Cardinals is BORING!! But thats what Bobby Ball is about these days. Why cant we just go out and get that big name player and shake things up? The days are gone where we pick up a no name and they blossom under Bobby. Its boring and Im not buying season tickets this year because I see signs already of last year.
SMOTLZ FOR MANAGER 2010!!!!!
By LivininAL
November 8, 2008 8:33 AM | Link to this
DOB Maybe a litte out there on my part - but would the Braves be interested in Renteria if they trade Esco? Affordable? Over the hill? Just thinnking..
By AceCometh
November 8, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this
DOB -It’s been rumored that Peavy is skeptical about going to Atlanta, that he feels the Braves aren’t quite the contender they used to be. To your knowledge is there any truth to this? The rumor doesn’t make much sense, for the Braves would be all but a lock for the playoffs by just adding him to the rotation.
By RBG
November 8, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this
at the Braves 400 club lunch a couple of weeks ago Frank Wren said he wouldnt trade Hanson for Peavy as a 1-1 deal much less as part of a package.
I asked him about Edgar and he said he was not in the Braves plans.