Braves

By Braveheart

September 17, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this

N8, Here’s the first round draft history:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?franchID=ATL&round=1&drafttype=junreg

By Braveheart

September 17, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

dap, here’s an article that talks about how mark ellis is more valuable and a better free agent signing than carlos lee (it was written b4 his subpar year with the bat this year though):

http://www.dugoutcentral.com/blog/?p=939

By Braveheart

September 17, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

braveheart great defense would be a plus, but im would be afriad mark ellis would continue to hit like he has this year. bad. maybe he will bounce back, but he has been brutal this year. but yeah…a great defense is always good. if we were getting great production from the outfield, ellis’ bat wouldnt be as big of a deal.

dap, the hitting and age with Ellis are a concern. it’s likely his D will decline soon as well because of his age and without his D, he ain’t much to talk about.

But if you read some of the Valuation stats that are out there on the net, Ellis’ total game combined is considered more valuable than KJ even with the weak hitting this season.

Believe it or not but his D, when combined with his hitting, according to some sabermetricians, has made him almost as valuable overall in creating a run differential as Dan Uggla. The run differential between their bats is evened out by the run differential created by their gloves.

I’m not married to the idea of signing Ellis. just trying to throw out different ideas ‘cause the Braves are gonna have to be inventive this offseason due to the likelihood that they are not gonna sign the two big, big, big bats and two big, big, big hurlers they need.

They might be able to creatively get around it by getting groundball hurlers to throw in front of a great infield D. It would also seem to fit into what McDowell seems to want from his pitchers.

Ellis is more impactful overall than KJ according to many analysts. So the Braves would be getting better at second ……… and this would make the pitchers better as well.

If they called up Schafer, signed Ellis, and got Francoeur back to his 2005 through 2007 defensive form, they’d have + defense at first, second, short, third, right and center ……… and average defense at catcher. That would make it much easier to bite the bullet and suffer the woeful D of someone like Burrell or Dunn or Ibanez or Abreu for the sake of getting their + bats on the squad.

And since KJ is a very valuable trade asset, they might be able to then go get themselves a good young pitcher by dangling KJ - knowing that they they have already upgraded at second with Ellis over KJ.

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this

Braveheart Did anyone hear McCann on 790 this morning saying they were gonna put him in at third base the other day? Would have been fun to see.

LOL! That would have been funny…maybe…

By Lew

September 17, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this

Braveheart first, second and third. A New World’s Record (yet another cheap musical reference)?

By Braveheart

September 17, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this

Braveheart blogs by Braveheart’s own self. Bloghog.

By N8

September 17, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

Braveheart

Thanks for the link. But I really did want YOU to give me the answers. LOL!

Anyhow, here’s what I found. Kind of what I thought, but still a couple of misses.

Over all #1’s: Chipper and Horner

Over all #2’s: Mike Kelly

Over all #3’s: Avery and Ken Smith

Over all #4’s: Komminsk & Cole

Over all #5’s: Mercker and Murphy.

Clearly, there is a couple of busts in there. But also it is clear that of the 9 Top 5 picks, the Braves “hit” on 4 of them, with Mercker being serviceable for a few years (but not worthy of a Top 5 pick).

So it’s a slightly better than 50 percent chance that they’ll get a decent player with a Top 5 pick. The guys they took with the 6th - 10th over all pick, were almost all busts.

If ANYTHING in baseball is a crap shoot, it’s the June draft. But if we’re gonna suck and miss the playoffs anyhow, why not “wish” for a Top 5 (or better) pick?

By StingerSplash

September 17, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this

Are you kidding me? I loved Dewayne Staats when he was the lead singer for Boston. Or was that Blue Oyster Cult? Oh, wait, wrong white dude with a ‘fro. Never mind.

By TommyP

September 17, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this

Great to see Jurrjens still dealing.

Carroll: I can’t imagine anyone thinking that Tampa’s announcer is ripping off anyone (much less Skip) when he says, “Rays Win!” I would imagine dozens and dozens have ended an emotional game with “their team WINS!”

If any BRAVES announcer ends a game like that, PERHAPS he’d be emulating Skip but it wasn’t like what Skip said was original. (didn’t Skip rip off Dad?)

By Gregor Fan-co

September 17, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this

Uh, maybe we should SIT Jair for the season? Might be good idea not to throw his arm off as he is our only solid starter next year. And he’s, what, 23?

By gdg73

September 17, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this

WHO CARES??

By gdg73

September 17, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this

Move all remaining Braves’ articles to the obituary section of the newspaper.

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

Remember his eight innings of shutout ball in Philly on July 25? The night before the world began to cave in?

Ah, yes! Who could forget that? That game was a thing of beauty: 1-0 Braves, top of the ninth—Mr. Lidge comes in to try to hold the Braves down. But what did he do? He gave up a run while loading the bases! And up steps BMac, who crushes a 1-2 pitch over the wall in right field for a GRAND SLAM!

The Braves scored two more times after Lidge (who recorded no outs) exited, and won the game 8-2—that Grand Slam (Mac’s second homer of the game) was essentially the difference maker. (See, Savanna Guy, I told you I wouldn’t let anyone forget!)

“The night before the world began to cave in”…That sums it up pretty well, Ms. Rogers. The next day, the Braves scored nine runs in one inning off Mr. Hamels, and lost 10-9…The day after that, well, let’s not go there…

StingerSplash Or was that Blue Oyster Cult?

Don’t fear the Reaper!!

By TennesseePaul

September 17, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this

Braveheart: Nice points. I was thinking the same thing a while back. KJ is solid, but he offers a lot of value in trades and if the Braves are going to get the great young pitching they want, they’ll have to trade something of value to get it. KJ fits that perfectly. I’d love it if should they go this route, they sign a 2B to replace KJ and leave Prado on the bench. If nothing else there will be tons of bloggers at other team sites constantly hyping Prado… “man we should trade for that guy! He’s like a poor man’s Chone Figgins”.

By paul lee

September 17, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this

It pleases my heart that we are giving the Phillies the division at the Muts expense. Even though i cant stand either the Muts fans are deserving of us helping the Phillies knock them off. Did i say i cant stand the Muts fans? :)

By southbeachdietfreak

September 17, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this

Anyone out there have any thoughts about Yost becoming the Braves Manager?

By DAP

September 17, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this

braveheart very interesting. i wouldnt be outraged if the braves signed ellis, but im not real confident about it. we’ll see! i have a feeling that kj isnt going anywhere, but hed be a good trade peice, or could go back to LF.

By Goodoleboy58

September 17, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this

just submitted my vote for Skip

By Tampa

September 17, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this

Carroll:

You’re right, it would have been better if the Ray’s announcer had said: “Sox lose! Sox lose! Sox lose! Sox lose! Sox lose! But seriously, as a die hard Braves fan here in Tampa, I did think the announcer sounded strikingly familiar, and it gave me similar chills as when the late great Mr. Caray got excited and uttered his immortal words.

Here’s to a better 2009 for our Bravos, but for now I’m enjoying another team of overachievers (think 1991 Braves) down here in Tampa.

By DAP

September 17, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this

what kind of contract would mark ellis get?

By ncscoots

September 17, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this

Braveheart, you gotta get bats before you could move Kelly for pitching. Can’t do it the other way, not with Kotchman at a corner, and Francoeur’s 2009 production a question mark. Just too risky. You could end up with a very good pitching staff all dying for lack of run support.

Frankly, I’d settle for a couple of pitchers who are less than ace-caliber if Wren can fortify the offense first. Hudson’s back in a year, and the young pitching prospects will have had another year to mature, if they are going to do so. To me, the pitching beyond 2009 looks less problematic than the offense.

By Steve from OH

September 17, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this

Baseball America ranked the top 20 Appalachian League prospects. Ranked Braves include Randall Delgado (6), Jon Gilmore (11), Craig Kimbrel (14), and Paul Clemens (15).

Matt Eddy also had this to say on Teheran and David Francis:

Tom from Atlanta asks: Thanks for the chat, a very interesting list. A couple of Braves questions - what did the managers (at least those that saw him) have to say about Teheran? Any idea where he might have ranked if he’d been eligible? And, David Francis was quite dominant this year, how was he viewed around the league?

A: Matt Eddy: Shoulder tendinitis took a big chunk out of Julio Teheran’s debut season, but when healthy he showed an explosive 93-96 mph fastball, with the ability to touch the high 90s on occasion. He showed advanced control of his power curve and changeup, too, but his command in the zone was below-average. This would lead to him getting hit around (6.60 ERA) and to his getting down on himself. In that sense, poise is his biggest stumbling block right now — but hey, he’s 17. Had he qualified, Teheran would probably have ranked No. 3, right ahead of Matt Moore, because of his incredible arm strength and plus athleticism.

Matt Eddy: As with Deryk Hooker, we’re getting a lot of questions about RHP David Francis, who fanned 69 and walked 17 in 54 innings. The Braves’ 12th-rounder this year out of Walters State (Tenn.) CC, Francis hails from the same Mississauga, Ontario, high school as Braves RHP Jamie Richmond. He got a late start this season as we waited for his work visa.

Matt Eddy: Francis sits at 90-91 mph, and touches 93-94, and gets high marks for his competitiveness and solid secondary pitches. His slider features some tilt, but it’s his vulcan changeup, when thrown hard and with conviction, that functions as his out-pitch. Instead of a traditional change grip, Francis grips the ball more like a splitter, but more tightly.

By Braveheart

September 17, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

what kind of contract would mark ellis get?

Hell, I dunno. Hopefully, nothing more than 2 yrs, $14 million or 3 years, $20 million. That might be too much though.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/04/free-agent-st-7.html

By Jim

September 17, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this

I posted these two notes on the last blog:

Thanks to someone earlier for posting the lis of FA outfielders this off-season. The names that jump out most prominently are:

1) Vlad G. — I see that he has a player/team option for next year, but doubt he is the right fit with the Braves. If he is on the market the price will be high and there are health concerns that have limited his performance this year and raise questions about his long-term future.

2) Adam Dunn — will be expensive and would prefer a right handed bat for our lineup, but would not be unhappy to see the Braves pursue him.

3) Ibanez — playing in Seattle, I have seen less of him than the others on the list, but he is right handed (I believe) and would be in the second tier (cheaper) of the free agent pool.

4) Abreu — For a two or three year deal this might be a good way to go. He’s left handed but hits lefties OK (as do the other 2 prominent lefties in our lineup) and is a patient hitter who will hit about 15 HRs and have a good OBP.

5) Crawford — A better version of Anderson/Blanco. Not a power hitter, but could be a Reyes-like catylist for our lineup.

6) Manny — Don’t think that the Braves are a fit for either player or team and expect the Dodgers will exercise the team option for next year

7) Burrell — Last night’s game and the whole 2nd half of the season are good reasons why we should not pursue this alternative. His defense is below league average also.

8) Best of the rest: Juan Rivera — a distinct possibility for the Braves.

By Jim

September 17, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this

Braveheart,

By Smith, I assume you refer to Zane, not Pete who was acquired by trade. Zane had a pretty decent career and was outstanding for Pitt in the ‘91 playoffs.

In the more recent drafts (since ‘00), the first-rounders of note (or noteriety) were JF in 2002, Wainwright and Thorman in 2000, Devine in 2005, and McBride in 2001. In the sandwich or 2nd round of these drafts we have taken KJ, McCann, and Yunel. The 2006-2008 drafts are too early to evaluate, but Heyward in 2007 + Freeman in the 2nd round of that draft looks good. Cody Johnson in 2006 may grow up to be an Adam Dunn (or Dave Kingman) clone, but Joba was still on the board when we selected him. If we get into the top 5 (or even top 7) there will probably be a player available who will go on to have a very good major league career. It then becomes incumbent upon our scouting dept. to select him!

In the “race” for draft position, I look each night to see how each of the following has done: Pitt, KC, A’s, O’s, Reds, Giants, Rockies. (Go teams!!) We have the tie-breaker with the Reds, Pirates, and Giants by losing the season series to each. I don’t like to see us lose, but if and when it happens, one can just shrug and say maybe it’s for the best.

By Goodoleboy58

September 17, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this

DAP

I’m a Mark Ellis fan I wouldnt mind him on the team next year

By Steve from OH

September 17, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

I just can’t understand the love affair with Juan Rivera. It just boggles my mind. Is there any good reason to pick him up? Anyone?

By Jeff

September 17, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this

A heap of sportswriters descending on Vegas….someone better tell the hotels to make sure the buffets are fully stocked.

By Jim

September 17, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this

Braveheart,

Can’t count on Chipper to stay healthy and put up numbers like he has (ave-wise) this year. Can’t replace KJ’s bat for a better defensive 2B. The most glaring offensive weaknesses on this team are outfield and backup catcher. Above all starting pitching is the biggest need. It will take more than 1 KJ-level talent to get a top of the rotation starter, and if the pitching staff next year featured people like JJJ, Hampton, Lowe, Harang, and Morton/Glavine (just to indicate the level of talent, not the specific players), it could be described as serviceable and capable of getting to the post-season only if the offense was among the top in the league. Removing KJ from a core of KJ, Mac, Chipper, Yunel, Kotchman, and an Ibanez-type FA will leave too big a hole for our power-challenged team to overcome.

By Obi-Wan Kenobi

September 17, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this

Best of the rest: Juan Rivera — a distinct possibility for the Braves.

If the Braves sign this guy may the force be with them.

By Steve from OH

September 17, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this

Jim, Chipper’s not that much above his recent SLG/EqA numbers. His SLG is actually lower this season than the last two seasons. His OBP is significantly higher, but even if he falls back to what he’s been playing for the last two seasons, we’re still looking at a .330 EqA guy, which is pretty doggone good.

By Goodoleboy58

September 17, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this

Steve form OH

He can hit from the right side of the plate.. something we haven’t seen all year? he’s a free agent so we wouldn’t have to trade for him… hows that for a start?

By cricket

September 17, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this

I found this exchange in John Donovan’s column in si.com and I completely agree with his point of view. The pseudo-macho crowd will reply with the usual “this is how baseball is always played” etc. crap but this “free season on the defenseless catcher” rule is idiotic.

*As a former catcher, I’ve always wondered why it is acceptable to knock the head off a catcher (as Chase Utley recently did) but not acceptable to return the favor and put him six rows into the left field pavilion? Seems to me turnabout is fair play. — Keith McLeod, Hollywood, Calif.

Yeah, I’ve always contended that catchers get a raw deal on this. They can block the plate and get absolutely abused by a guy who has a running start and is often coming at full speed — really, how fair is that? — or give a runner a sliver of plate and be considered a wimp. And I especially hate when catchers give the runner some plate and they still get lit up by guys taking cheap shots. Happens all the time. Just not right.*

By Efrim

September 17, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH

I just can’t understand the love affair with Juan Rivera. It just boggles my mind. Is there any good reason to pick him up? Anyone?

Thank you. I don’t either. I haven’t been around lately, are people still hating on Kelly Johnson here?

By Jim

September 17, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this

Steve,

Not a knock on Chipper, just a realistic look at how many games he will be able to play and what power/rbi numbers might be expected from him. This year’s Chipper is a more consistent version of KJ or Kotsay — a player that will contribute to a rally, but will need the contribution of others to put runs on the board(part of a 3+ hit inning). Both Mac and KJ have more extra base hits this year, and his playing time and production are not likely to increase as he gets older.

By DAP

September 17, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

steve from OH if we sign juan rivera, maybe we can get the #1 pick in the next draft!!!

By Efrim

September 17, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

Goodoleboy58

He can hit from the right side of the plate.. something we haven’t seen all year? he’s a free agent so we wouldn’t have to trade for him… hows that for a start?

Show me the stats to back up that he can definitively “hit” from the right side of the plate. I believe he had one good year?

By Hoosier Aaron

September 17, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

Steve -

I saw Juan Rivera’s name included in Tex trade rumors. I would imagine some are thinking that we might have interest based on those rumors.

By Random

September 17, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

N8: “But is it safe to assume that with a .401 BA, .481 OBP and his .745 SLG, to go with [ManRam’s] 14 HR and 44 RBI (in 43 games - in which the Dodgers have gone 25-18, and gone from 2 back to 4.5 up on the D-Backs), his impact has been HUGE?”

From Baseball Prospectus:

ManRam’s first 180 plate appearances with the Dodgers:

.385/.482/.736

Chipper’s hottest 180 consecutive plate appearances (between 9 Apr & 29 May):

433/.525/.720

Also, Chipper has five other (overlapping) streaks of 180 PAs in the same period nearly as good.

(Your numbers include more games — 189 PAs — so ManRam’s getting even hotter & hotter it seems.)

But let’s hear it for our boy, too.

By Efrim

September 17, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this

As much as I like Kelly Johnson, I really am not too sure he will bring back the young front of the rotation starter we desire. I mean, would you folks take Jonathan Sanchez for Kelly Johnson? I think that might be what we get offered for him. If you think that is worth it that fine, but that trade is very risky to me.

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this

Cricket—

That’s very true.

And I especially hate when catchers give the runner some plate and they still get lit up by guys taking cheap shots. Happens all the time. Just not right.

Completely agree. It’s like what happened in Spring Training in that Rays-Yankees game—when Elliot Johnson ran over Cervelli and broke Cervelli’s wrist; totally unnecessary. Or when Utley threw his elbow at McCann’s head (and hit it)—there was no need for that! That’s not “baseball” or “trying to jar the ball lose”—that’s a cheap shot.

Speakin’ of Chase Utley (and I brought this up a while back)—did any of you see what he did to Jesus Flores of the Nats? That was very bizarre: Chase like dove into him! I did not see that as necessary.

By DAP

September 17, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this

kelly johnson’s streaks are just so irritating. hes been so hot in september that he has his season averages up to very good levels. if he could find a way to be consisttant, he would be such a good player. as it is now, he really hurts the team when he struggles.

one answer would be to surround him with a more consistant offense. that way, his struggles would be masked a little. i say we go with the infield we have. work on the outfield, and pitching.

By N8

September 17, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this

Random

Absolutely agree that Chipper has been that good almost ALL season. Add to that, NOBODY has questioned his heart or desire to play.

But there isn’t any denying that adding Manny to the Dodgers has sparked their offense, and as DOB pointed out via the Buster Olney blog, taking him OFF of the Red Sox roster has had the same result.

It’s down right scary to think how silly bad this team would be without Chipper.

Ironically, two seasons in a row, Andruw has caused his team that was counting on him to put up big numbers, to go out and make a trade for a cleanup hitter.

Fortunately for the Dodgers, they basically got Manny for nothing, and he HAS made the difference for them down the stretch. Can’t say the same for Tex, huh?

By Braveheart

September 17, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

Efrim, what kind of young arm do you think KJ and Hanson will fetch? Those are the two I’d dangle only for the right young arm …………. I don’t like the flyball, home run or walk rates for Hanson.

By Random

September 17, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this

cricket: “I found this exchange in John Donovan’s column in si.com and I completely agree with his point of view. The pseudo-macho crowd will reply with the usual “this is how baseball is always played” etc. crap but this “free season on the defenseless catcher” rule is idiotic.”

The exact same rule governing runners and catchers at the plate governs runners and fielders at all the other bases.

So why do we see collisions at home and not 2nd or 3rd? Why do catchers so fiercely protect, and runners so ardently attack, home plate, but never (rarely?) contest so violently at the other bases?

Because scoring a run is just that much more valuable than merely taking a base.

Nothing “macho” about it — home plate is worth fighting for and risking injury over; the other bases are not.

Simple as that.

PS: “defenseless catcher”?!?!? Have you seen the armor they encase themselves in?

PPS: No offense, MacEff O.

By Efrim

September 17, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this

DAP

one answer would be to surround him with a more consistant offense. that way, his struggles would be masked a little. i say we go with the infield we have. work on the outfield, and pitching.

I agree.

By Efrim

September 17, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this

Braveheart

I think Zach Greinke would be possible with that package. I’m sure you’d have to add a couple more lower level prospects, but that is a start. Royals need position players that take pitches, that is for sure.

Hanson isn’t a can’t miss prospect, I’d agree with that, but are there any pitchers who are? I think he’ll be fine, I really like his opp BA and K/9 innings, that is for sure. Obviously, I gotta see the kid before I peg him to be anything. I don’t think I have ever heard someone call him an ace. I’ve heard a 2/3 projection for Hanson. But I’ll take a 2/3 anyday of the week.

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this

Random No offense, MacEff O.

That’s not “offensive”, really. Anyway, you’re talking defense (hardy har). To be honest, I don’t know what he meant by “free season”…

And I know what you mean about home plate being “worth fighting for”.

The exact same rule governing runners and catchers at the plate governs runners and fielders at all the other bases.

But if a player gets to rough trying to break up a double-play, the ump calls an “automatic double-play”. They don’t call automatic outs when the player pulls an Utley and elbows the catcher when there was no need to do so. (Granted, Utley was out on that play, but that’s ‘cause he got tagged.)

Maybe that just goes back to what you said about home plate being worth fighting for, and scoring a run is more valuable.

By Braveheart

September 17, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this

one answer would be to surround him with a more consistant offense. that way, his struggles would be masked a little. i say we go with the infield we have. work on the outfield, and pitching.

the big issue issue with this though is that they don’t have enough money to fix the outfield and the staff. even if they did have all the money, it wouldn’t be wise to use it all to fix the issues because that wouldn’t be an effective or efficient utilization of your time, labor and monetary resources.

you don’t want to sign 4 or 5 guys at the price set in the current free agent market. you want to get back club controlled league minimums, arb eligibles or guys in the middle of contracts set at the cheaper price established in the free agency market several years ago. That brings you more bang for the buck.

they will need to trade someone valuable to fill a hole in the outfield or on the staff. kj is by far the most valuable trade commodity who isn’t untouchable. to be brutally honest, kj seems to be the only really valuable and available trade asset on the major league roster. If you wanna fix holes, KJ likely may have to go

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this

Have you seen the armor they encase themselves in?

Speaking of that, I don’t like McCann’s new chest protecter as much—the road one’s not so bad, but the one he wears at home is just a tad to…red. I liked his gear better.

But now Sammons has that gear…

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this

Have you seen the armor they encase themselves in?

Speaking of that, I don’t like McCann’s new chest protecter as much—the road one’s not so bad, but the one he wears at home is just a tad to…red. I liked his gear better.

But now Sammons has that gear…

By Brian

September 17, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this

I did see that Utley play against the Nats and I’m starting to wonder how that twurp hasn’t had a broken rib or black eye yet! I mean he’s a real good ball player but not consistant enough,in my mind, to be one of the games best! Being a hard nosed player and a disrepectful and cocky one are two different things!

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this

I’d like to apologize for my previous post—the one about McCann’s gear. I think it’s gonna post twice.

AND there’s a typo. I meant to say, “I liked his old gear better.”

But, I pressed “post” before I saw that…then my finger slipped and I pressed “post” again…

Sorry about that.

By Braveheart

September 17, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this

Hanson isn’t a can’t miss prospect, I’d agree with that, but are there any pitchers who are? I think he’ll be fine, I really like his opp BA and K/9 innings, that is for sure. Obviously, I gotta see the kid before I peg him to be anything. I don’t think I have ever heard someone call him an ace. I’ve heard a 2/3 projection for Hanson. But I’ll take a 2/3 anyday of the week.

Oh yeah, I agree that he’ll be fine as a middle of the rotation guy or maybe a #2 ……… I have never seen him pitch though so I really shouldn’t be talking. I do hear some fans talk like he is an untouchable though and I guess like you I don’t see him that way. If they could get Greinke for KJ, Hanson and one or two lower level guys, I’d have to seriously consider that. But what the hell do I know? I’m not a big trade proposal type because I have zero clue as to what GMs look for in those things or how they value and scout different guys.

By Efrim

September 17, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this

Brad (Georgia): Are the Braves a top 5 farm system even after losing Feliz, Andrus and Harrison?

John Manuel: Not top 5 b/c of the lack of upper-level pitching. Top 10? Perhaps, top half for sure.

Definetly Top 10. At least that is what I have heard from others not named John Manuel. Upper level starting pitching?

By Efrim

September 17, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this

Braveheart

I’m biased because I am a Braves fan, but honestly, I think it would take more to land Greinke. I know some here aren’t sold on the guy, but his peripherals tell me he is a damn good pitcher. He is a free agent at the end of 2010, so we would need to sign the guy to make anything worth it. And that is the way this franchise should think in terms of trades they make.

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this

Brian—

Yeah, I was so happy when the Nats plunked that twerp in the first inning the day after the collision! I was looking at the Gameday that night and saw HBP: Utley (by Perez), and I pumped my fist with glee.

By Carroll Rogers

September 17, 2008 5:39 PM | Link to this

lineup: MARTIN PRADO LF, Kelly Johnson 2B, Chipper 3B, McCann C, Infante SS, Kotchman 1B, Francoeur RF, Anderson CF, Jurrjens P

By Braveheart

September 17, 2008 5:41 PM | Link to this

By Smith, I assume you refer to Zane, not Pete who was acquired by trade.

Jim, I was referring to Ken Smith, who was taken third overall in 1976.

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this

Nitram in left, eh? Hmm…this should be int’resting.

By Carroll Rogers

September 17, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this

and matchups for the Mets series:

Friday: Reyes vs. Perez, Saturday: Campillo vs. Pedro, Sunday: James Parr vs. Pelfrey

By bravos2249

September 17, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this

Carroll Finally a sigthing of Prado in LF…..I heard before he came back that he could play LF….but with Omar having slight more experience , he played 2nd and 1st.

By cabravesfan

September 17, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this

umm- why is prado playing left field? I know he has been playing well lately but left field? has he even played there this year? Did Brandon Jones do something to really p** bobby off?

By beekay

September 17, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this

Im convinced if the D-Backs would have traded for Tex they would be hanging with the Dodgers. If they would have given up Connor Jackson they would have got Tex and we would have a young power hitter instead of a singles hitter at a position that we need power from. We better get a monster corner outfielder next year or Mr. Kotchman’s lack of power will get exposed even more

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this

Friday: Reyes vs. Perez, Saturday: Campillo vs. Pedro, Sunday: James Parr vs. Pelfrey

What happened to Hampton?? I thought he was pitching on Friday??

Aw, no…We’re s’posed to be goin’ on Friday…

By Steve from OH

September 17, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this

Hmmm….interesting discussion so far today. KJ and Tommy Hanson for Grienke? I’m leaning against it. From what I’ve read, Hanson is a solid #2, which is what Grienke would be for us if we’ve got both Hudson and a fresh Jurrjens in the rotation (withold the jeers, people). I’ve listened to a few M-Braves games that Hanson has pitched this season (you can do so free thru milb.com) and I’ve heard anywhere from a 92-96 MPH fastball with a “nasty” slider. Other scouting reports say that he has a good changeup as well, along with a serviceable curve. I think 3 more years of Kelly and 5-6 of Hanson will be more valuable than 2 years of Greinke followed by either a big contract or leaving for free agency.

Obviously, no one is “can’t miss,” but Hanson is the best we’ve got right now so why not take a chance, since he’s under team control for 5-6 years, as opposed to Grienke (Boras client) who would only be under control until 2010, and those seasons may end up being rebuilding seasons anyway. And besides, you all know how much I like Kelly, especially if we’re trotting out Juan Rivera in left field and Francoeur in right (although I’m not ready to give up on him yet).

Now, of course, this doesn’t mean I don’t like Grienke, on the contrary, I’d love to have him on the team…but perhaps we could work a different deal? Hey, since Prado is so good why don’t we put him in for Kelly (just kidding, Bobby’s Cox).

By Anders Mom

September 17, 2008 6:01 PM | Link to this

Anders? Anders? Has anyone seen my boy?

By JD

September 17, 2008 6:02 PM | Link to this

cabravesfan, I am guessing it is because the Braves are facing a lefty, and Bobby would rather have Prado face the lefty. Not to mention Prado is a pretty darn good hitter.

By Steve from OH

September 17, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this

Efrim, re: your 5:19:

Yeah, what was up with that? I’ve seen Keith Law say 6 or 7, and Jim Callis has said about the same. I can see the lack of top-tier pitching, since we don’t have any Bumgarners or David Prices in our system, but how many teams do? He’s overlooking a lot of good players, IMO.

By mbatl

September 17, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this

Wow, Reyes, Campillo and Parr against the Mets. If they don’t win the division, they should really, really be ashamed of themselves (nothing against those guys, btw, but not exactly “championship caliber” pitching at this point).

By Lou Vales

September 17, 2008 6:15 PM | Link to this

The POOR little Florida Marlins—-2!!!!!! Time World Series Champions—-just wanted a LITTLE help from the 1!!!! TIME World Series Champion Atlanta Braves——BUT No!!!! Way too much to ask for. Therefore the team with the 21.8 Million dollar payroll will somehow have to fashion another 10 out of 12 To Have A Chance.

Whenever you guys bemoan the actions of your ownership just THINK

(1)21.8 Million Payroll (2)Play In a Football Stadium (3)No FANS (4)No BIG TV Deal (5)Penurious—Look It Up—Owner (6)Unfathomable 6 Week Long Hitting Slump (7)BS(Blown Save) Closer Kevin Gregg who portrayed a LYING DOG as he hid an injury for 2 months resulting in a BS(Blown Save) percentage that was unbelievable.

So if you are trying to find a team that could help negate the NASTY Cub and Met fans—Well, you could do worse than root for the little Fishies with 1,500 (MAYBE) people in the stands. Root for the guys experiencing that travesty and don’t hold the fan apathy against them.

Payroll LESS than A-Choke and they are basically 5 games behind 2 teams who have spent more than 200,000,000 combined than have the Marlins.

By Captain Obvious

September 17, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this

Braveheart still cheerleading for a Kelly Johnson trade I see. Hopefully the Braves reject that noise this offseason.

It’s especially weird because one post Braveheart tries to explain why Johnson ain’t that good (1:03 PM) and another says he is the Braves’ best trade bait outside of Chipper/McCann/?Jurrjens? (5:07 PM). Why is that? Why do other teams want Kelly Johnson if he’s so not good? Bad scouts? Bad GMs? Nah. Why would Johnson bring back more in a trade than Prado? Why would Johnson bring us back the most in a trade? Could it be that, gasp!, he is a good player? (gasp!, faint! and hiss! go the Pradotards).

Braveheart: a walking, talking contradiction.

By Braveheart

September 17, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this

Is Boras really Greinke’s agent? Wow. Seems like a rather horrible choice for an agent when you suffer from mental health issues. Boras cares about the best financial interests of his clients and does a great job with that but he doesn’t care one bit about their best interests. To me, someone with a rather serious history of mental health issues needs an agent who seriously looks after his best interests and not just his bank account.

By Jim

September 17, 2008 6:28 PM | Link to this

McFann,

I assume Hampton goes tomorrow against the Phils. Campillo Pedro matchup looks like our best chance on paper vs. the Mets, but maybe JJJ and Hampton can save our long relief for the weekend series.

By cabravesfan

September 17, 2008 6:28 PM | Link to this

JD- I was by no means hoping for Brandon Jones to play- Prado has been playing well- I was just concerned because I don’t think he has played in the outfield this season(ever?)…has he? But, yeah, didn’t think about the lefty match up thing- that makes a little more sense…

By Deep Throat

September 17, 2008 6:33 PM | Link to this

“Francoeur still has the tools, competitiveness and drive to be a good player, but an .800 OPS might be his ceiling because of his inability to draw walks.”

Source

So Francoeur’s ceiling, the reason the Braves just gotta keep him is an .800 OPS, or what Kelly Johnson has done in two straight years now. But the Braves still want Francoeur over KJ.

This is insanity.

By Jake

September 17, 2008 6:35 PM | Link to this

Carroll

A little off topic but do you know if Smoltz will call another game before the season ends?

By McFann :Ô:

September 17, 2008 6:41 PM | Link to this

Jim—

Good point…That’s prob’ly what’s going to happen—Hampton pitching tomorrow, I mean.

Camp vs. Martinez does look pretty good…I wish that was Friday’s matchup instead—except that Camp pitched both of the other games we’ve gone to.

I just hope Ho-Ho doesn’t repeat his last start against the Mets…

By Coach (Skip will be missed)

September 17, 2008 6:45 PM | Link to this

I just wanted to remind the blog of two important things.

First, the Braves have a good draft record with top 5 picks in the first round.

Second, the top fifteen picks in the first round are protected. Meaning, the Braves can still go after a type A free agent without the fear of losing their 1st round pick.

By Steve from OH

September 17, 2008 6:48 PM | Link to this

Braveheart, my post was supposed to have read: Grienke (Boras Client?). A typo on my part.

I think he’s a Boras client, but I’m not sure and I wasn’t able to find anything to prove or disprove it. So take it with a grain of salt.

Can’t disagree with any of that post, though.

Deep Throat:

Can’t disagree with you, although I’m still clinging to hope for the guy. I really hope he bounces back and has a nice season next year, but if we traded him (as long as it’s not for peanuts) I wouldn’t throw a fit.

By Einstein

September 17, 2008 6:53 PM | Link to this

Hello Braves Fans, Ned Yost got fired for exactly the same things that Bobby has been doing (and losing) for the past 3 years. Coddling older players, being stubborn and not receptive to change for the better, and refusing to bench a player who’s in the tank. If I didn’t know better, I would think he learned from Bobby. (Maybe Bobby should get fired…but, no, he’s an icon). The Braves don’t need a Yost, Cox, Pendleton, or any of the other Steppford coaches. They need a manager who’s not afraid to shake things up, not afraid to send an underachiever (does Frenchy, Boyer, Acosta ring a bell) down to the minors until they learn, and not afraid to cut non-major league talent (ie: the Corkster). Folks, the thinking that got us here won’t be the thinking that got us out of this mess. Peace, Your friendly neighborhood genius.

By bravos2249

September 17, 2008 7:02 PM | Link to this

Just saying….but Jeff AND Kelly have played better these last 2 yrs when the Team was done..or looked and played like it…..I really like those type players, that bust it when their job is in jeporady/ driving in 100 in like the 2nd to last game of the season.

By Brian

September 17, 2008 7:09 PM | Link to this

Einstein- I wouldn’t go as far as to compare Yost to Cox cause Yost had a hell of alot more to work with than Cox has had!! BC p** alot of us off for his stuborness and pampering Francoeur, etc. But to accuse him of our downfall is too much for obvious reasons! I thought you were a genius? You lying prick!!

By Deep Throat

September 17, 2008 7:13 PM | Link to this

Just saying….but Jeff AND Kelly have played better these last 2 yrs when the Team was done..or looked and played like it

Kelly Johnson was at his best in 2007 in the first half. Look at his stats in April 2007. Was the team “done” then?

Was his good May of this year a fraud as well?

Get real. Saying players (any players) are only good when it doesn’t count is a complete load.

By Braveheart

September 17, 2008 7:13 PM | Link to this

A contradiction? It’s not worth wasting my breath on you because I know your feeble mind can’t deal with much more than a simple little Fox News world where there’s only right or wrong, you are either with us or against us. You’re either with prado or you’re with KJ. You either for trading KJ or for never letting KJ go.

Now go back and read it all over again dimwit and understand that I can think KJ is good, that KJ is much better than Martin, that the Braves should hold on to KJ if they can’t get a valuable young arm back for him, that KJ is by far the most valuable trade bait on the roster, that they should trade him if they get a very good young arm back, and that they might gain more overall value at second base with Mark Ellis instead of KJ while not getting as much bang for the buck because KJ would cost less. Sorry that’s about as condensed as I care to make it for your dense self.

By John in Wichita

September 17, 2008 7:21 PM | Link to this

According to this article Link:Anatomy of a Player: Zach Greinke, Greinke’s agent is SFX, not Boras.

By Carroll Rogers

September 17, 2008 7:25 PM | Link to this

Jake, i’m checking on that.

not great to walk two guys in front of howard….jair’s not looking great to start. but maybe he’ll get out of this allowing two runs and will settle down.

actually a little chilly here tonight at the ballyard. feels good to be in jeans and a jacket. this is our postseason!

By bravos2249

September 17, 2008 7:29 PM | Link to this

Deep throat….obviously I have to type in “slow people ” talk for you….

Kelly was never hitting this good..with this many rbi or xbh when the season mattered….granted he can’t hit .400 all year….but he goes from hitting .250 and under in June-August…and suddenly in Sept he hits .400…..INCONSISTENT….and the Jeff thing is true…most players that drive in 100 when it matters, don’t do it 3 days before the season is OVER.

By Carroll Rogers

September 17, 2008 7:31 PM | Link to this

43 pitches for jurrjens in the first inning. oh my

By Einstein

September 17, 2008 7:50 PM | Link to this

To Brian, I’m sorry you disagree with my sound judgement, and you are certainly entitled to your humble opinion; however, you don’t know jack s#%?! about baseball. Saying that Yost had a lot more to work with…didn’t you see the preseason ratings that had our Braves in the World Series? I guess that was probably based on talent, and even though we had a few injuries, what would you expect when you field a bunch of old, icons. Besides, our payroll is twice as large a Tampa’s, and look at the production they have gotten. My problem with your boy, Bobby, is his inept decisions. How long do you bat Frency in clean-up? How long does it take to realize that Corkey is not even minor league talent. A big league manager doen’t ruin a bullpen like Cox. And, a big league manager doesn’t lose so many one run games due to stupid decisions. Who is teaching the guys to bunt, hit to the opposite field, advance the runner, etc. Looks like we’re still going for that big, 3 run home run. And, how stupid do you think the fans are when the manager always gets thrown out of games on the calls you CAN’T dispute. Cox has been stealing money long before Hampton, and folks like you believe the deception. As a reminder, doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results is insanity. Peace brother.

By Deep Throat

September 17, 2008 7:51 PM | Link to this

Deep throat….obviously I have to type in “slow people ” talk for you….

Obviously, it is the other way around. Let me do this real easy and slow so you can understand.

Here is what you wrote: “Jeff AND Kelly have played better these last 2 yrs when the Team was done.”

Read it again, nice and slowly and soak it all in: “Jeff AND Kelly have played better these last 2 yrs when the Team was done.”

Now go look at the stats Kelly Johnson put up in the first half of 2007 (especially April). Look at his 2007 season stats. Look at Francoeur’s 2007 season stats. Remember while looking at those stats that the Braves were in it until the last four or five games in 2007.

How were they good only when it didn’t matter? Were they just that awesome in that last Astros’ series in 2007? That and the last Phillies’ game before were the only four games where the Braves were done. When Kelly Johnson tore it up in April 2007, were the Braves done?

Like arguing with a fence post.

By Tomas

September 17, 2008 8:03 PM | Link to this

Prado in LEFT FIELD. Why not just move kelly over there at least he has played there before, and have Prado at second.

By bravos2249

September 17, 2008 8:05 PM | Link to this

Deep Throat

did you completely MISS the part about how OR when they looked to be done…..which refers to last year…MAN I have to spell it all out don’t I?

AND FYI Kelly hi .200 last September..if he had hit like this last year…WHEN IT MATTERED to an extinct…the Braves may have made it to the post-season

By Braveheart

September 17, 2008 8:06 PM | Link to this

How were they good only when it didn’t matter? Were they just that awesome in that last Astros’ series in 2007?

LOL

By Carroll Rogers

September 17, 2008 8:22 PM | Link to this

Jake, I’m told that’s it for Smoltz and broadcasting games this season….

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 8:23 PM | Link to this

Ah, sorry I’m late…

What time do the Braves start?

By Carroll Rogers

September 17, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this

looking at the former shortstop chipper jones turning the double play there with the shift on for howard….or is anybody watching the game?

By Tomas

September 17, 2008 8:31 PM | Link to this

Come on, lets get some runs.

By Couch Tater

September 17, 2008 8:36 PM | Link to this

Yeah, watching the game. Don’t spill that chilly on yer jacket.

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 8:40 PM | Link to this

or is anybody watching the game?

Game? What game? Oh my gosh! Are the Braves playing?

By Steve from OH

September 17, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this

Kelly Johnson also choked his way to OPSes of 1.084 in July and .833 in August last season, ARod-style. What a terrible ballplayer. Unless you OPS at least 1.500 “when it counts” (“when it counts” is to be determined by a random fan on the street), you are obviously worthless to your team and should be tarred and feathered immediately by an angry mob of silly baseball fans.

Seriously, dude, every game counts the same. You don’t win 90 games in September, you’ve gotta win in all months of the season. Kelly is a good-not-great 2B, and is therefore pretty valuable to his team. Your argument is not valid.

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 8:44 PM | Link to this

Hey! Wow! You’re right! I just looked at my Gameday, aaannnd

The Reaper was hit!! First pitch! Yeah, baby!

By Run Heap Run

September 17, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this

I’m watching…I just have nothing to say.

I love this weather?

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this

WHOOOOPS! Injury delay!

Sorry, Reaper! Gosh…I feel bad now…

By N Nine

September 17, 2008 8:47 PM | Link to this

YES! VICTORINO HIT BY PITCH!!!!!!! I’m not watching TV but i am satisfied!

Nunez you just earned a spot in the bullpen!!!!!!

By StingerSplash

September 17, 2008 8:47 PM | Link to this

McFann,

I saw BOC in maybe the cheesiest place I have ever been in about 16 years ago in Jacksonville. Great show. The crowd? Whew. Certainly not a country club set.

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 8:48 PM | Link to this

Wait…What the heck is going on? Now the Reaper got an infield hit…Why did the Gameday say HBP…and what is the injury delay?

Help me…

By cabravesfan

September 17, 2008 8:48 PM | Link to this

McFann
Not only was he hit- the umps wouldn’t give him a base…called it a strike

By Jake

September 17, 2008 8:50 PM | Link to this

Thanks Carroll

Hate to see Kotchman get stranded after a lead off double. Whatever good we are doing when it gets to the Phillies it stops immediately.

By Carroll Rogers

September 17, 2008 8:53 PM | Link to this

Thanks Run Heap. I’m kinda that way too, only I’ve got to come up with something to say!

By cabravesfan

September 17, 2008 8:53 PM | Link to this

he either slapped at the ball or it grazed the bottom of the bat before it hit his hand…therefore a strike

By Tomas

September 17, 2008 8:58 PM | Link to this

Victorino got hit. Payback. This offense is enfuriating, when they have games like this. They always play like this against the phillies, bad pitching, a few errors, and not enough hitting.

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 9:05 PM | Link to this

cabravesfan—

Called it a strike, eh? Nice. Too bad he got on base anyway.

Was there an injury delay?

StingerSplash—

That’s a shame—that it was cheesy. At least the show was good.

I actually only know one song of theirs—Don’t Fear the Reaper. We just bought it off iTunes the other day. Great song—love the guitar!

I’ve prob’ly heard other songs of theirs on the radio and just don’t know it’s them.

Sweet dreams! They took Happ out! Dang, I’m sicka that guy…

Even more sicka the Reaper…But I hafta say, that was a great play he made on Kotchman’s double.

By Random

September 17, 2008 9:05 PM | Link to this

McFann: “But if a player gets to rough trying to break up a double-play, the ump calls an “automatic double-play”. They don’t call automatic outs when the player pulls an Utley and elbows the catcher when there was no need to do so.”

Hmmmmm — I dunno. Lemme check it out some more. I suspect another rule may be involved, but (like I said) I dunno.

Oh, and by “free season”, I think what was meant was “open season”, a very common expression. (Right? You’ve heard of “open season on x”, haven’t you?)

You should be well-used to such malapropisms, what with all the ones floating around on this blog. (Even some promulgated by the ‘meister himself.)

PS: “hardy har”, indeed. Kid, you crack me up.

By bravos2249

September 17, 2008 9:07 PM | Link to this

Steve from Ohio when I say when it doesn’t count I mean when the Braves are like 10+ out with no chance of recovering…..everyone should base their “when it doesn’t matter by that”…..By the “when it matters” I mean in those June-early August days when the Braves NEEDED him to hit like that….is it good he’s hitting now? yes…is it beneficial HECK NO.

By Tomas

September 17, 2008 9:09 PM | Link to this

Jake I agre with you on your 8:50 comment.

By Lew

September 17, 2008 9:15 PM | Link to this

Stinger-Saw BOC in Atlanta years ago. One of the best shows I ever saw-but NOT because of BOC. Manfred Mann’s Earth Band opened for them and they were phenomenal. One of the best rock and roll bands I ever saw in concert.

Looks like I’ll be seeing the Braves in Boston next June. Unfortunately it will be the weekend my Mother In Law will be visiting. Now I have to buy her a ticket (one of the most expensive in all of baseball). Life is sometimes unfair.

By cabravesfan

September 17, 2008 9:17 PM | Link to this

McFann

Yeah there was a short delay- it got him pretty much flush on the hand- not really clear if it hit the bat first or not…looked like it hurt pretty good :)

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 9:18 PM | Link to this

Random—

I oughta get my rule book out, too…it might be in there.

“Open season on x”—Yeah, I know that one!

Like, “It was open season on Jurrjens in the first inning.”

Thanks for the clarification.

PS: “hardy har”, indeed. Kid, you crack me up.

Glad to be of service.

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 9:26 PM | Link to this

Lew Manfred Mann’s Earth Band opened for them and they were phenomenal.

Aw, man! I love their version of Blinded By the Light!

cabravesfan looked like it hurt pretty good

Good!

And he gets another freakin’ hit…I cannot wait to see him leave town!!

By Woah

September 17, 2008 9:26 PM | Link to this

It’s the Goo!

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this

I’m sorry…that was mean of me to say “Good” about the Reaper hurting.

I apologize.

By richbrave

September 17, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this

On another front. ELIJAH DUKES blasts a two-run HR with 2 out in the bottom of the seventh breathing new life into NATIONALS hopes for a win tonight.

By Tomas

September 17, 2008 9:30 PM | Link to this

My god Kelly. Don’t go to sleep on the field. Again against the phillies.

By Jake

September 17, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

Pujols went 0 for 4 tonight

Would be nice to see Chipper get another hit

By BA

September 17, 2008 9:36 PM | Link to this

It’s a shame a loyal fan like RichBrave has to go from watching a respectable AAA team like Richmond to a scrub AA team like the Nationals.

By Goat Horns

September 17, 2008 9:37 PM | Link to this

K.J. is a decent player but a second baseman he is not.

We will not win anything with him at second. It is just too important a defensive position.

Defense has hurt this team (and pitching staff) terribly this year and K.J. is part of the problem.

We must be strong defensively up the middle!

By cabravesfan

September 17, 2008 9:38 PM | Link to this

McFann

It’s ok- I thought you might like hearing that- and there was no permanent damage- I wouldn’t feel too bad if I were you; Mac missed a week…

By N Nine

September 17, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this

THE CHIPPER JONES UPDATE:

Chipper 1-3 BB .365

Pujols- another 0-4 .354

Pujols is somehow cold! This could be done in a week! YEY CHIPPER Keep it up!!!!

By Tomas

September 17, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this

Mac has looked horribly at the plate all night long. It may be time to give him a day off.

By Woah

September 17, 2008 9:43 PM | Link to this

Boo the Goo!

Boo the Goo!

Boo the Goo!

By N Nine

September 17, 2008 9:44 PM | Link to this

Sheets yet another early exit! He is by far the worst FA pitcher available! Major risk and high demand on the dollars=no bueno. This guy gets hurt 1 in 3 starts. I hope we don’t touch this loser.

By Carroll Rogers

September 17, 2008 9:46 PM | Link to this

i just saw that ben sheets came out of a game with forearm tightness….ain’t that the typical precursor to/euphemism for, um, tommy john?!

blaine boyer homer…..will that bring out the goo birds?!

and let me get this straight. i’m now doing quite a bit more falcons coverage….dennis quaid is at falcons practice and i came here today?! that ain’t right! it’s almost as unfair as the day i missed matthew mcconaughey in spring training.

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this

cabravesfan—

Yeah, I guess so…

But I’m having a hard time taking delight in any dang thing tonight.

By N Nine

September 17, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this

Folks, its time to cut our losses and dump Blaine Boyer..I’m sorry but the GOO right. He is terrible—pushing a 6ERA! Geeez

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this

Tomas—

Amen.

By cabravesfan

September 17, 2008 10:00 PM | Link to this

McFann

You and me both

By Random

September 17, 2008 10:03 PM | Link to this

N8: “But there isn’t any denying … “

Nope, there is no denying.

Denying? Not an option.

It truly is undeniable.

So, do you think the Braves should bid for Manny’s services this winter? How high (and long) would you go?

By Bologna

September 17, 2008 10:03 PM | Link to this

Defense has hurt this team (and pitching staff) terribly this year

No it hasn’t. The Braves’ defense has been fine. Kelly Johnson’s defense, last I saw, was +4 at second (meaning his defense has saved four more runs than the league average at the position.)

The team’s pitching problems is the….well pitching. Legit gold glovers at every position couldn’t make this staff minus Smoltz and Hudson look good. Not enough defensive lipstick for the Braves’ pitching pig.

By richbrave

September 17, 2008 10:04 PM | Link to this

And on another front:

METS get one back in the eighth with a solo shot by BELTRAN. 9-5. Great movie, but this sucks. NATS lead off the bottom of the inning with a double and single and strand both runners. In fact they strand 10 through 8. Oh well, our loss still leaves PHILLIES in first.

By Original Jon

September 17, 2008 10:04 PM | Link to this

God, I hope Blaine ‘I suck so bad’ Boyer isnt on this team next year. If so, I hope he is in a mop up role.

By McFann Ô

September 17, 2008 10:09 PM | Link to this

cabravesfan—

Yeah, that was an ugly game from start to finish.

They had better get their butts in gear and win tomorrow! This is insane…I despise the Fillies so much!!!

Night, all.

By richbrave

September 17, 2008 10:19 PM | Link to this

HEY BOLONGA:

We don’t go political here O.K.?

By richbrave

September 17, 2008 10:24 PM | Link to this

BA:

My man. How YOU dooin’? Been posting up on the FALCONS recently? I stay away - mostly.

By GOT GOO?

September 17, 2008 10:48 PM | Link to this

Bobby Cox is trying to milk every inning he can out of the cud-chewing, mooing, GOOster.

Here a Goo, There a Goo, everywhere a goo goo.

By GOOmsday scenario...

September 17, 2008 10:53 PM | Link to this

The upcoming experiments at the Large Hadron Collider have sparked fears among the public that the LHC particle collisions might produce doomsday phenomena, including dangerous microscopic black holes and strange matter.

But wait…

How do we explain the black hole in the Braves’ bullpen and the presence of strange, GOOey matter?

By Carroll Rogers

September 17, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this

a couple things from the clubhouse:

1) Escobar’s hamstring is still too weak for him to run well (as you could tell as he limped to first in his pinch hit walk tonight.) he will not play again tomorrow.

2) On the play in the eighth, Kelly said he thought there were two outs - hence the freeze up. He was especially bummed for Nunez, (who was ultimately charged with the run) after he’d pitched “a phenomenal” 2 1/3 innings.

3) Bobby said JJ wanted to go another inning but he wasn’t going to push it at this point in the year with no playoffs to push for after he’s thrown 97 pitches.

4) JJ said he’d been trying to be just a little too fine in the first inning, maybe giving Phillies hitters too much credit before just deciding to attack the strike zone

By Lou Vales

September 17, 2008 11:07 PM | Link to this

Dear Braves, Thanks a lot!!!

By My name is Bobby Cox and I'm a Goo-aholic

September 17, 2008 11:08 PM | Link to this

Please!

Can we get an intervention going?

This is your bullpen. And this is your bullpen on GOO.

By SEC to enforce the UPTICK RULE

September 17, 2008 11:16 PM | Link to this

Today the US Securities and Exchange Commission ruled that from here on out Blaine Boyer can be sold short only on upticks of his Earned Run Average.

Beer raid! Beer raid!

By putting stuff on something...

September 17, 2008 11:27 PM | Link to this

• HEY BOLONGA: We don’t go political here O.K.?*

Is it political to put something on something else in an effort to disguise the latter?

How about putting a bonnett on a donkey? A baseball glove on a hippopatamus? A uniform (with cleats) on an old dude who can barely walk? Joe Simpson on the radio? Blood on the Tracks? A moustache on the Mona Lisa? Goo on the mound? Runners on base (when Frenchy bats)? Corky on the roster? Music on this blog?

By I'm a BIG fan...

September 17, 2008 11:32 PM | Link to this

Let’s go FOUL CONS!

Let’s go FOUL CONS!

When’s Michael Vick rejoining the gang?

By Thar' she blows...

September 17, 2008 11:49 PM | Link to this

The White Goo stands before me as the monomaniac incarnation of all those malicious agencies which some men feel eating in them, till they are left living on with half a heart and half a lung.

That intangible malignity which has been from the beginning; to whose dominion even the modern Christians ascribe one-half of the worlds; which the ancient Ophites of the east reverenced in their statue devil;

I do not fall down and worship it like them; but deliriously transferring its idea to the abhorred white Goo, I pit myself against it.

All that most maddens and torments; all that stirs up the lees of things; all truth with malice in it; all that cracks the sinews and cakes the brain; all the subtle demonisms of life and thought…

All evil, visibly personified, and made practically assailable in Goo.

I pile upon the great white gooey mound the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by my whole race from Adam down…

By ColoradoBravesFan

September 18, 2008 12:33 AM | Link to this

OK… I just copied this from MLBTRADERUMORS.

Offseason Outlook: Atlanta Braves By Tim Dierkes [September 17, 2008 at 10:43pm CST] Next up in our Offseason Outlook series, the Braves. Here’s how they set up for ‘09 using internal options only:

C - Brian McCann - $3.5MM C - Clint Sammons - $400K 1B - Casey Kotchman - $1.45MM+ 2B - Kelly Johnson - $430K+ SS - Yunel Escobar - $403K 3B - Chipper Jones - $11MM IF - Martin Prado -$400K IF/OF - Omar Infante - $1.4MM+ LF - Matt Diaz - $1.225MM+ CF - Josh Anderson - $400K RF - Jeff Francoeur - $460K+ OF - Gregor Blanco - $400K OF - Brandon Jones - $400K

SP - Jair Jurrjens - $400K SP - Jorge Campillo - $400K SP - Jo-Jo Reyes - $400K SP - Charlie Morton - $400K SP - James Parr - $400K

RP - Rafael Soriano - $6.1MM RP - Mike Gonzalez - $2.3625MM+ RP - Blaine Boyer - $400K RP - Jeff Bennett - $400K RP - Manny Acosta - $400K RP - Buddy Carlyle - $400K RP - Jeff Ridgway - $400K

Injured players: Tim Hudson - $13MM, Peter Moylan - $410K, Chuck James - $428K+

Non-tender candidates: Vladimir Nunez, Ruben Gotay

The result: about $48MM committed, plus arbitration raises to Kotchman, Johnson, Infante, Diaz, Francoeur, and Gonzalez. Those will add up, but the Braves should still come in under $60MM for the current players. The team had an opening day payroll of $102.4MM. The Braves are primed to do some serious spending.

The Braves are taking the right approach toward free agents/legends Tom Glavine and John Smoltz. They could help, but the team won’t count on them. I can see incentive-based deals for both.

Manager Bobby Cox expects to add two quality starters, whether via free agency or trade. I would target Derek Lowe due to his strong health record. He might cost $14-15MM per year. After that I’d ink a more affordable veteran like Paul Byrd, Freddy Garcia, or Randy Wolf. That bargain starter may come from Japan, with Koji Uehara and Kenshin Kawakami considered the top names.

That strategy would leave money for a quality left field bat - perhaps Adam Dunn, Pat Burrell, Raul Ibanez, Brian Giles, or Juan Rivera. It would also be wise to add a stopgap center fielder in the Mark Kotsay/Randy Winn mold.

On the trade side, the Braves may be willing to move Johnson and/or Francoeur. The trade market for starters may include Tim Redding, Andy Sonnanstine, Edwin Jackson, Ian Snell, Nate Robertson, Jarrod Washburn, Justin Duchscherer, and Boof Bonser. See any matches there? The Braves would be selling low on Francoeur. Would swapping him for Brian Bannister make sense?

Frank Wren has a challenging offseason ahead of him; he’ll attempt to revamp the rotation and outfield._ END_

Things I noticed… 1) Would like to see Lowe, Smoltz, Hampton, and maybe one other proven starter instead of all the $400K rookies.

2) Do we really need another stop gap in CF? 3) 40 Millon to spend even without increasing payroll.

Other thoughts? GO BRAVES IN 2010…

By Brian

September 18, 2008 12:37 AM | Link to this

Im hot,hot, a hotty jalapeno…. the spiciest pepper in town!! pzzzzzzzz…sizzle!!

By mbatl

September 18, 2008 12:56 AM | Link to this

CBF, I saw that summary on mlbtr too. Seeing the five starters with “$400K” next to them… wow, how the mighty have fallen, huh? Course that didn’t include Hudson, Smoltz, Hampton, etc.

I agree that Lowe looks like our best option on the F/A market. CC too expensive, Sheets too fragile…

As to the trade ideas, E. Jackson is not too attractive to me, but Sonnanstine is… if we could deal for him, a rotation of JJ, Smoltz (maybe), Hampton, Sonnanstine and then some combo of the young guys would not be too bad.

Maybe also sign a Randy Wolf or Byrd as depth (ugh, I hate chasing mediocre players, but it may be the right thing to do right now as long as the contract lengths aren’t long).

And no, I don’t think we need another stopgap CF. I’ll be very disappointed if Schafer is not there on opening day, but if not, go with Anderson/Blanco.

By uga-brave

September 18, 2008 1:23 AM | Link to this

flange,

read the nice call out two days ago.

thank you.

i actually called the death sentence on bear steans and lehman brothers over a year ago.

flange, headed to tempe today/ tmmrw.

BRAVEHEART,

read your comments.

you know i respect your baseball acumen.

well, i faded chuck james, i faded kyle davies, i definetely faded YOUR BOY FRANCOUER.

braveheart, you called me out.

you said this or that.

here are the facts, francoeur sux, chuck james stinks,

lehaman brothers is out of business, bear stearns is out

braveheart, gold and other hard goods went up today more in the history of exchange traded goods.

flange, the volatility index on the S&P 500 is approaching 40.

it usually works, it is back tested. well unless we have absolute fed melt down.

flange your guess is as good as mine.

morgan and goldman are the last two left.

the bull is now bank of america.

think about that merrill lynch is gone.

merrill lynch needed a bank?

bank of america is gonna be a steal at these prices FLANGE.

flange, go DAAWGS.

By uga-brave

September 18, 2008 2:12 AM | Link to this

no matter what,

we have the best rightfielder in baseball a .640 .ops is great.

we are so lucky to have him.

he does not hit homeruns, but he steals bases.

ZERO.

600 at bats every year. 29, 19, 11.

next year he will find magic beans.

unless his name is jack, i dont see it.

if he would of hit a lick with the BASES LOADED, OR with runners in risp, it might of been different.

but he gets a pass.

tex has 11 homeruns since he left. frenchy has 11 all year.

By uga-brave

September 18, 2008 2:43 AM | Link to this

kelly is great, b’macc is great, casey is great, chip is great, frenchy is GREAT.

dont be delusional.

howard, rollins, utley, werth, burrell, victorino, and jenkins.

just out homered our boys by close to 120.

gotta love the prado, k.j. debate .

well we could argue center field?

By uga-brave

September 18, 2008 3:34 AM | Link to this

flange,

there will be massive counter trend rally.

there are plenty of ultra long ETF’S that would or could make you money.

the only reason i say this, flange, i think you get it.

VOLATILITY is great for traders.

was mu is gone. they are for sale.

morgan stanley is begging wachovia.

but then again,

braveheart, you are my boy right? commodities kind of worked out today.

By uga-brave

September 18, 2008 3:54 AM | Link to this

going to to see the dawgs in the desert.

flange, all this credit market b.s. will pass.

time to go long banks like wachovia at 8 bucks. take my chances with citi at 12.

easy money.

long term, that is how it is made.

that is how wealth is built.

By Savannah Guy

September 18, 2008 8:18 AM | Link to this

uga-brave is right about the markets and it will get worse. Uh, the markets… not the late night financial prose. With the turnaround bottom, the gold move yesterday behaved like Midas went long. Last month the historical gold to crude oil ratio was lower than ever before. Now the bulls are loose. uga-brave must be an after-hours trader?

Now, baseball… sorta.

The Braves scored two more times after Lidge (who recorded no outs) exited, and won the game 8-2—that Grand Slam (Mac’s second homer of the game) was essentially the difference maker. (See, Savanna Guy, I told you I wouldn’t let anyone forget!)

McFann, help me out here… I have no idea what you’re referring to there. By the way, there’s an ‘h’ in Savannah. Cann’t be dropping n’s and h’s, right? ;-)

By Irish Moose

September 18, 2008 8:45 AM | Link to this

For a team that has no power and no real back up at First Base, why is Scott Thorman not being called up? He hit 19 HRs in Triple A, while missing three weeks for the Summer Olympics, and is still young. Have the Braves given up on him? I also remember him playing a little Left Field with Atlanta. Throw him out there if you think Casey Kotchman is your guy for the next few years at First Base. Thorman is never going to hit .300, but he will most likely get you 25 HRs and 80 RBIs. Right now that makes him our Clean Up hitter.

By Cooper

September 18, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this

Irish Moose

B/C Wren through out a huge white flag on July 31st and the who team including mgt quit on the spot.

Cox is flabbergasted Yost got fired, many fans are flabbergasted that he has near lifetime employment after the last 7 years of first round exists and now non-existent post seasons.

First rule of mgt everything is your fault.

By Braveheart

September 18, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this

braveheart, you are my boy right? commodities kind of worked out today.

yeah, uga, you’re my boy. You’ve been right ‘bout most things you’ve ranted about on here. frenchy, gold, chucknduck, merrill lynch, bear sterns. to your credit too, you don’t just usually trash things without reasons. It’s usually not just bad results that set you off. it’s usually your assessment of underlying fundamental fatal flaws that make you go off. you’ve usually been right about the flaws long before everyone else will admit seeing it themselves.

By DAP

September 18, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this

irish moose they cant call up thorman because he isnt on the 40 man roster. im not sure if thorman can ever be a good MLB player…he might get another chance, but he was really bad when he was up here.

By McFann Ô

September 18, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this

Savannah Guy Cann’t be dropping n’s and h’s, right?

Ah, yes! How true! Sorry about that, mann!

I’m referring to July 25, 2007—ninth inning: BMac hit a no-out Grand Slam off Brad Lidge!

; )

BTW—He’s only hit 3 homers since then. What’s up with that???

He needs at least 2 more homers and 3 more doubles. That’ll give him 25 homers (one more than his career-high) and 40 doubles (two more than his career-high, and a nice round number).

I’d also appreciate at least 6 more RBI—that would give him an even 90.

Is this too much to ask?

By McFann Ô

September 18, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this

Hey, the Braves’ website has Ho-Ho pitching tonight and Hampton tomorrow!

Oh please…

By Braveheart

September 18, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

I like the way Ed Hochuli has taken the heat like a man for his bad call the other day. Kinda always liked that guy for the cheesy way he shows off his guns even when the wind chill is 20 below. I like him even more now for the way he’s taken the heat.

But that play brings up the issue of instant replay in baseball. He would have been better off keeping the play live instead of whistling it dead. I’m not just saying that because in that instance that was the right call to make. If he had kept it live and replay had later reversed it, he wouldn’t have taken the heat he has taken. That is true even though if it had been reversed on review that would have meant he got the call just as wrong by not blowing the whistle as he got it the other day because he blew the whistle.

Replay creates the incentive for officials to get the call intentionally wrong by keeping a play live rather than mistakenly getting it wrong because you ruled it dead.

Ed Hochuli threw a flag on himself. After blowing a call that helped the Denver Broncos beat the San Diego Chargers on Sunday, the referee admitted he made a mistake on Wednesday and is answering e-mail from some fans telling them that, according to multiple media reports. “I’m getting hundreds of e-mails — hate mail — but I’m responding to it all,” Hochuli wrote to several Chargers fans, according to The San Diego Union-Tribune. “People deserve a response. You can rest assured that nothing anyone can say can make me feel worse than I already feel about my mistake on the fumble play. You have no idea … Affecting the outcome of a game is a devastating feeling. Officials strive for perfection — I failed miserably. Although it does no good to say it, I am very, very sorry.”

By brent a.

September 18, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this

Crasnick (from the previously linked article) found a scout who had a lot to say about Francoeur. And this scout, interestingly enough, did not subscribe to the Rob Neyer theory that Francoeur was simply, “unlucky”.

*”At one point this season, he was the most confused, uncomfortable hitter I saw,” the scout said. “He had no idea at the plate whatsoever. When you slump and you’re off mechanically and you’re the type of hitter he is — where you swing at everything and have no consideration for the strike zone and a total disregard for the count — you’re going to have a lot more trouble getting out of a big slump.” *

By Carroll Rogers

September 18, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this

Jake, I spoke too soon….I just got a release this morning that John Smoltz is going to be on the TBS broadcast team for the postseason - for its coverage of the division series and the ALCS. trying to figure out what his exact duties are, but Smoltz is headed for the booth during the postseason.

By Original Jon

September 18, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this

ColoradoBravesFan More than likey, its been rumored that if Smoltz returns, he will be in the bullpen, and why on GODS GREEN EARTH would you want Hampton back?????!!!!!!!!

By RC

September 18, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this

Let’s get a new thread going here…who should/will the Braves go after this offseason through signing or trade to be the right-handed bat with a little power in left field?

Suggestion #1: Casey Blake

By DAP

September 18, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this

RC dont try and steal my thunder. ive been promoting casey blake for over a month. im glad someone else brought it up though, because ive had virtually no response about him.

the nagatives about blake is that he might not be viewed as a real outfielder, though he has played alot of right field in his career. another negative is that he is playing better this year than his career average, which means he might not be as good next year. the last negative about him is that he might cost more than we want to spend. $9mil would probably be the max amount id would give him, and he might not take that to play left field for the braves, but i dont know that.

the positives are that hes a veteran that wont demand a long contract, hes right handed, has power, a good OBP, he can play every corner, which means he could be our leftfielder and third baseman if chipper is out. he seems like agreat fit for the braves, he just has to want to play here.

By nolie

September 18, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

and why on GODS GREEN EARTH would you want Hampton back?????!!!!!!!!OJ

I’d be more tha happy to take him back with an inexpensive contract and games-appeared-in incentives. The guy had problems this year, but what would you expect with him coming back after 3 years. I think there is a good chance that he will pitch fairly regularly next year and at a level better than most of our current starters, certainly a decent #5.

By Shaun

September 18, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this

brent a., we have to keep in mind that Francoeur has never been a great hitter. So when he’s unlucky, he’s going to go beyond not great stats to downright awful stats.

Remember in Francoeur’s best full season so far in his young career, he posted a .338 OBP and a .444 SLG.

His career numbers coming in to this season: .280/.320/.463

When a .280/.320/.463 is unlucky, he’s going to put up something like a .235/.293/.353 line.

That scout should have, if he was doing his job correctly, said the same thing about Francoeur a year or two ago when a lot of people were in love with him as a hitter. Maybe the scout would have said the same thing a year or two ago if someone had interviewed him back then. Back then Francoeur was striking out more and walking less.

By RC

September 18, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this

Great points DAP. I also worry a little bit that if we give Blake a 3-year or longer contract that it might block some of the young OF talent we can except to come up in a few years (Shafer, Heywood, Gorkys). Any other ideas of players that might be available as FA or trade?

By Random

September 18, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

I hope it’s the maximum sentence for ex-Mets Joseph Petcka.

Throw away the key.

By Shaun

September 18, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this

In other words, it isn’t just bad luck that Francoeur is hitting .235/.293/.353. It’s bad luck plus the fact that he was around a .280/.320/.463 hitting, 24-year-old to begin with.

By Carroll Rogers

September 18, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this

new blog should be up before too long…

By DAP

September 18, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this

RC i wouldnt give blake more than three years, and id rather give him just 2.

just a list of names of guys i think might be gettable that could help the braves…these would be by trade or scrap-heap pickups: fred lewis, matt kemp, josh willingham, xavier nady, erik bedard, aaran harang, bronson arroyo, jonathan sanchez…

for free agents, i think the jon garland should be heavily considered, derek lowe of course, oliver perez, bobby abreu, casey blake, like we mentioned, milton bradley should at least be considered, rocco baldelli, mike cameron, if his option isnt picked up, aj burnett, ryan dampster, and i think we should consider paying a reliever..ohman of course, affeldt, ayala, just a solid arm.

By MGL

September 18, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this

Looking at next year’s schedule, there are some brutal stretches. For example, in MAY/June, the Braves play 13 straight, one day off, 17 straight, 1 day off, and 13 straight again. Each stretch has both home and away games, so there is travel in there also.

This tells me that Brovos must have a quality bench, including back-up catcher. Keeping the team as fresh as possible could be one of the keys to success. Starters must eat innings during this time or there better be some spare arms in Richmond that can be rotated in to the mix.

By nolie

September 18, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

The Current 10 Finalists For The HOF—Posnanski

Grease up that scroll-wheel all you ADDers * :-)*

The Hall of Fame announced on Tuesday that 10 finalists will be considered by the veteran’s committee for election next year. All ten were outstanding players, of course, and this is my only point today. Obviously, none of the ten were voted in by the Baseball Writers, and I’m not entirely certain that I would have voted for many of the ten myself (although I do think, being a little bit more of a Big Hall guy myself, that I would have voted for several of them).

Today, though, I don’t want to make the arguments against Maury Wills or Jim Kaat. I just want to make a short case for each of the ten. Some of us spend so much time writing why someone should NOT be in the Hall of Fame*, that maybe we lose a little perspective that this whole thing is supposed to be fun, that Halls of Fame are there to celebrate the game, to help us remember good times and wonderful ballplayers, and maybe we sometimes forget that anyone whose name seriously comes up for Hall of Fame consideration was, in the least, a wonderful ballplayer.

*I would imagine that there have been 100,000 or so words killed on this site to argue against Jack Morris alone.

It’s also worth mentioning that if any of these ten was elected, he would not be the worst player in the Hall of Fame, not by a longshot.

Dick Allen

Major achievements: MVP in 1972 … Rookie of the year in 1964 … Seven time All-Star … Led league in slugging (3 times), home runs (2 times), adjusted OPS+ (3 times) and runs created (2 times). …. Nineteenth all-time in career OPS+

What has kept him out of the Hall: Career was short; Was viewed by many as a pain in the neck.

The case: Dick Allen played in probably the worst hitting time after the Dead Ball era. He was Richie Allen when he had one of the great rookie years in baseball history in 1964. He hit .318/.382/.557 with 29 homers, 91 RBIs and 125 runs scored. But even though we all want to believe that baseball is a timeless game, we all realize that the numbers are about context. And 1964 was a hard year on hitters.

If you go to Baseball Reference and neutralize Allen’s 1964 numbers you get this: .339/.405/.594 with 32 homers, 106 RBIs, 145 runs scored.

If you put those numbers in Texas, say, 2003, you get this: .352/.418/.617 with 34 homers, 116 RBIs, 159 runs scored.

If you put those numbers in the Baker Bowl in Philadelphia in 1930, you get this: .367/.447/.663 with 36 homers, 134 RBIs, 183 runs scored.

Allen was one of the great right-handed hitters in baseball history. He started to go south at 33, and was completely done at 35. But from 1964 to 1974 — those dreadful hitting years in baseball — he may have been the best hitter in the game.

Gil Hodges

Major achievements: Drove in 100+ RBIs seven consecutive seasons … Eight-time All Star … Won three Gold Gloves, including the first Gold Glove at first base, and undoubtedly would have won more if there had been a Gold Glove award in his prime … Was Top 10 in home runs ten times. … Second man, beside Gehrig, to hit four homers in a game … Managed the Miracle Mets in 1969 … Winner of the Lou Gehrig Award in 1959.

What has kept him out: Late start because he was a Marine gunner during World War II; Career numbers fall just short and he never led the league in any individual category.

The case: With Hodges — as was the case with Buck O’Neil — I think the narrowness of the Hall of Fame comes into question here. Gil Hodges was a very good player. He hit with power (though, admittedly, helped by his cozy ballpark), and he took a walk and played a good defensive first base. But Hodges played a much bigger role in baseball. He was an iconic player in Brooklyn, an ex-Marine, and it was said (perhaps apocryphally) that he was the only Dodger never to get booed at home. He was a leader for one of the greatest and most famous teams in baseball history.

More, he later became the manager of the Miracle Mets. My point with Buck O’Neil always was that the Hall of Fame committee did him and his baseball life a terrible disservice by dividing and conquering his achievements, by looking at him as ONLY a player or ONLY a manager or ONLY a scout or ONLY a pioneer or ONLY a spokesman. He was all those things. I don’t know if Gil Hodges was quite a Hall of Fame player … depends on where you draw the line. But it’s close. Let’s do the math on it:

Hall of Fame line: 100 points. Gil Hodges as player: 82 points.

Obviously this is just a game, and I’m picking numbers out of the air, but you already know the point. Now there was Hodges as an iconic figure in baseball.

Hall of Fame line: 100 points. Gil Hodges as icon, leader, representative of the game: 13 points.

Then there was Hodges as the manager of the 1969 New York Mets. He took over the team in ‘68, they took huge strides, and then in ‘69 he led probably the most stunning World Series winner in baseball history.

Hall of Fame line: 100 points. Gil Hodges as manager: 53 points.

OK, you see where I’m going here. Taken one, he doesn’t get in. But all three put him, in my mind, WAY over the threshold. Now, of course, the Hall of Fame is not a mathematical riddle, and there is no Hall of Fame line, and the only real way to decide if someone belongs in the Hall of Fame is to determine if you believe that his “record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played” is worthy of the Hall of Fame. Taht’s what is written on the official ballot. Gil Hodges sure seems to fit.

Jim Kaat

Major achievements: Won 283 games … Won 25 games in 1966 and almost certainly would have won the American League Cy Young Award, but that was the last year of one Cy Young for both leagues, which Sandy Koufax won … Finished Top 10 in walks per nine innings 13 times, twice leading the league … Three time All-Star … Won 16 consecutive Gold Gloves.

What has kept him out: Didn’t quite reach 300 victories … Was viewed by many as more of a compiler than a great pitcher.

The case: Well, the first thing to mention about Kaat is that he has a case as the greatest fielding pitcher in baseball history. Maybe that doesn’t get him into the Hall of Fame. But it certainly is a strong point in his favor, and combined with his 283 victories, there’s a pretty compelling case here.

But Kaat’s case gives us a good chance to discuss the role of awards … and Alan Trammell. I have long believed that:

Point A: Alan Trammell should have won the MVP award in 1987.

I think that point is almost impossible to argue. Trammell lost to award to Toronto’s George Bell, despite hitting for a much higher average, posting a much higher on-base percentage, having a 155 OPS+ (to Bell’s 146), stealing 21 bases (to Bell’s 5), and, oh yeah, playing high-quality shortstop compared to Bell’s bored left field. That one’s not close, a blowout, made all the more so by the fact that Trammell’s Tigers BEAT OUT Bell’s Blue Jays. I don’t have the time or inclination to look it up now, but I cannot off the top of my head remember the last time the CLEARLY INFERIOR PLAYER from the NON-PLAYOFF TEAM won the MVP award over a the CLEARLY SUPERIOR PLAYER who BEAT OUT THAT TEAM FOR THE PLAYOFFS.

I’m sure there are some people I’m just not thinking about now. Anyway, that’s Point A.

Point B: If Alan Trammell had an MVP award, I expect he would be viewed as a more serious Hall of Fame candidate.

I cannot prove this. But I believe this to be true. This whole thing is more art than science, but I suspect Bruce Sutter’s Cy Young is, inevitably, what separated him from Dan Quisenberry (who should have won at least one, maybe two Cy Youngs). I suspect Catfish Hunter’s Cy Young made him a more serious candidate in many people’s minds. I suspect Dennis Eckersley’s Cy Young and MVP award helped him get into the Hall as well.

I should make clear … I’m not saying awards get people in. Jim Rice won an MVP and it has taken him forever. Andre Dawson won a (flawed) MVP and is very much on the bubble. Dave Parker won an MVP, Dale Murphy won two MVPs, Roger Maris won two MVPs, Don Mattingly won an MVP, Fred Lynn won an MVP and Rookie of the Year in the same year and so on, and I suspect none of them will get inducted. I’m not saying awards get people in … Randy Jones isn’t going to get into the Hall of Fame because he won a Cy Young Award. But I do believe that for many who have borderline Hall of Fame cases, a major award can really raise their stature. I feel almost certain that if Bert Blyleven had a Cy Young Award he’d be in the Hall of Fame right now.

Which brings us back around to Jim Kaat. He absolutely should have an American Cy Young Award. His case is even more clear than Trammell’s. There is absolutely no doubt he should have won the award in 1966. He won 25 games — five more than Denny McLain who was the only other 20 game winner. He had an excellent 2.75 ERA. He led the league in complete games, fewest walks per nine, there is absolutely, positively no doubt that the voters should have voted him the Cy.

Trouble is, as mentioned, there was no American League Cy Young Award in 1966. It was that last year of the joint Cy Young, and while Kaat was clearly the American League guy (he finished fifth in the MVP voting, no other pitcher finished in the Top 10), that was the year in the National League Sandy Koufax went 27-9 with the 1.73 ERA and 317 strikeouts.

So, for a fluke of timing, Jim Kaat would have a Cy Young. Would that make difference for Hall of Fame voters. Maybe I’m off, but I say yes. I’m not sure it would have gotten him in, but his candidacy never quite had the spark to take off and I think that might have made a difference.

Tony Oliva

Major achievements: Three-time batting champ … Career .304 batting average … Eight-time All-Star … Led league in runs (1 time), hits (5 times), total bases (1 time), doubles (4 times), runs created (1 time). … Was Rookie of the Year in 1964 and twice finished runner up for the MVP.

What has kept him out: Had a short, injury-plagued career so his counting stats do not overwhelm the voters.

The case: Oliva was one of the great pure hitters of his or any other time; Bill James remains convinced that nobody ever more wicked foul balls than Oliva. He did not make it to the big leagues full-time until he was 25, almost 26, but he was awesome as a rookie (.323/.359/.557 OPS+ of 150) and could easily have been MVP in his second year (finished second to his teammate Zoilo Versalles despite having a much, much better offensive season (his batting AVERAGE was better than Versalles’ on-base percentage).

In fact, through his first eight years Oliva was very much a Hall of Famer. He had made the All-Star team every year, he had won those three batting titles (the last one as a 32-year-old), he had a .313 batting average and a .507 slugging percentage despite playing in that savage time for hitters. He had also won a Gold Glove. It’s pretty widely assumed that his all-out playing style broke down his body, and Oliva more or less was done at 33.

Al Oliver

Major achievements: Batting champ at age 35 … Career .303 batting average … Seven-time All-Star … Led league in games, hits, total bases, doubles (2 times) and runs created … Batted .300 or better eleven times.

What has kept him out: Career numbers fall a bit short and he did not walk much or hit with great power.

The case: The 1970s was the heyday for the Al Oliver kind of player. I would describe an Al Oliver type of player like this: High average guy, doesn’t walk much, can’t run much, hits for moderate power (but not enough to get anyone excited), cracks a few doubles.

The most famous Al Oliver type was not Al Oliver. It was Steve Garvey. He and Al Oliver are each other’s top Baseball Reference Comp, though of course they could not have been more different in many ways. Oliver was left-handed, Garvey right-handed, Oliver black, Garvey white, Oliver outspoken and easily offended, Garvey Captain America and political. But the numbers don’t lie.

Oliver: .303/.344/.451 with 2,743 hits, 219 homers, 1189 runs, 1326 RBIs, 84 steals, 121 OPS+. Garvey: .294/.329/.446 with 2,599 hits, 272 homers, 1143 runs, 1308 RBIs, 83 steals, 116 OPS+.

In other words: Oliver out-Garveyed Garvey. But there were lots of others guys from that era — Lou Piniella, Bill Buckner, Carney Lansford, Greg Gross come to mind — who kind of fit that mold. I originally thought of a few others like Mike Hargrove, Bob Watson, Keith Hernandez, but as brilliant reader Eric pointed out those guys walked quite often so they’re not exact.

For a while, Oliver would talk about how he was the same exact player as George Brett but he was not getting the same attention. He left the reasons to the imagination, mostly, but it was clear where he was going with it.

That was probably not entirely fair to Brett. Oliver’s best year by quite a substantial amound was 1982 when he hit .331/.392/.514 with 22 homers, 109 RBIs and 90 runs scored. He had an OPS+ of 150 that year.That’s one heck of a year. But Brett probably had six years — 1979, 1980, 1983, 1985, 1988 and 1990 — that were about as good as that year or better (he was a lot better in 1980 and 1985).

Still, the point does stand that Oliver at his very best was a great player, and there’s no doubt that year (and a couple of others) could easily be slipped into George Brett’s Baseball Reference Page and nobody would notice.

Vada Pinson

Major achievements: Led league in hits twice and runs once … Cracked 2,757 hits in his career, which places him in the Top 50 all-time … Two-time All-Star (though he played in both All-Star Games in 1959 and 1960 … that was back when they had two All-Star Games each year). … Twice led league in doubles and triples … Won Gold Glove in 1961.

What has kept him out: Like Oliver, he did not quite get to 3,000 hits; career tailed off pretty badly after he turned 30.

The case: I realize that I’m supposed to make the case for Pinson here — quickly, he was a terrific combination of power and speed as a young player, he hit .343 in 1960 and posted a 142 OPS+ in 1963 — but I have to share with you quickly the story of how legendary Cincinnati sportswriter Earl Lawson got punched by Pinson and actually put out a warrant to have him arrested for assault. I run across these stories in research (DId I mention I’m writing a book about the 1975 Cincinnati Reds) and I have no place for them in the book.

It began in 1962, and Lawson wrote a scathing column about the Reds. I know it’s popular to say that decorum has really fallen off, but I’ll tell you I think sportswriters could be plenty vicious long before Al invented the Internets and John came up with the Blackberry. From Lawson’s column — this section is about Gordy Coleman.

“The way first baseman Gordy Coleman is fielding his position he might just as well be wearing the glove on his foot. Then again, more balls might wind up in it if he had id dangling from the back of his belt. Coleman doesn’t figure to pick up any ”shiners“ from bad hops, but he may wind up with a few knots on the back of the head.

”And the way he shies away from fences going after pop fouls balls, you’d think they were rigged with high tension wire.“

It is worth pointing out here that Gordy Coleman was NOT the one who hit Lawson. It was Vada Pinson.

”Pinson, gifted with extraordinary speed, should be one of the loops standout defensive players. He’s far from it. The Red centerfielder, first looking over toward Frank Robinson in right field, as if awaiting an OK to chase the ball, permitted a towering fifth inning drive by Sievers to drop into right center for a triple. Result — another Philly run.“

Apparently, Coleman took it hard and did consider going after Lawson — at least according to Lawson’s own account in ”Cincinnati Seasons“ — but he decided to move on. Pinson did not.

”You gutless bleep-bleeper,“ he said to Lawson.

”Vada, if you want a piece of me, then come and get it. I’m not going to run from you,“ Lawson replied.

Again, this is Lawson’s account. Still, nobody really denies what happened after that. In the clubhouse, Pinson said to Lawson: ”That story you wrote, were you kidding or were you series?“

Lawson said: ”Of course I was serious.“

And Pinson clocked him. Lawson then got up and went after Pinson, though he was not entirely sure what he could do when he got there, but the whole thing got broken up. Lawson went upstairs to write a column which led:

”I got punched again.“

Yeah. Again. Johnny Temple had hit Lawson five years earlier. Popular guy. But believe it or not we STILL have not gotten to the part where Pinson got arrested. That happened late in 1963, when Lawson wrote a column saying, ”Bunts could make champ of Pinson.“ It’s hard to imagine that there was much to complain about Vada Pinson in 1963, his best year. Still, Lawson wrote that Pinson’s ”stubborn refusal to capitalize on his tremendous speed by dragging an occasional bunt probably would cost him the National League batting crown.“

Pinson was so upset — though really, in Lawson terms, that seems pretty tame — that he grabbed Lawson the next day, cocked his fist, ripped his shirt. Lawson burst into the managers office, asked to use the phone, and called the police while, he says, Frank Robinson and Leo Cardenas screamed obscenities at him.

I cannot believe I had never heard this story. The case actually went to trial, and a hung jury was declared. It was going to trial again when Lawson, figuring he had proved his point, dropped the charges.

Ron Santo

Major achievements: Nine time All-Star … Five-time Gold Glove winner … Led league in on-base percentage twice … Finished Top 10 in homers seven times and actually lead league in triples once (I did not know that. Weird, wacky stuff!). … Led league in walks four times and walked 90 or more five times … Three times led league in times on base.

What has kept him out: Odd thing, many people who saw him play seem to think he was not as great a player as his numbers and achievements indicate.

The case: You know there are so many players who, in retrospect, don’t look as good as they did when they were playing. You know, new stats come along, certain talents gain or lose value, it’s just how progress works. Andre Dawson is a great example — he seemed to have few weaknesses as a player in the 1970s and 1980s. He hit for power, he could really run, he won Gold Gloves in the outfield, he generally hit for pretty good averages, he could really throw, he was the Hawk, the complete player.

Then, the years pass. And you look back on Andre Dawson’s career. And you realize the guy did not walk at all. I mean AT ALL. And because he did not walk, his on-base percentages were alarmingly low. And because his on-base percentages were alarmingly low, his career OPS+ is 119, which is lower than a lot of players, including Al Oliver. And then you look back at his defensive stats, and he was probably overrated defensively, at least toward the end of his Gold Glove run. You look at his MVP year, and really there’s no way he should have won that. You look at his career and you see what you see from all of these guys — terrific career, borderline Hall of Fame case.

There are plenty of others who don’t stand up to modern measurements.

Then, there are the rarer cases of players who, based on those same modern measurements, actually look better NOW than they did then. Santo is one of those types. Because he walked a lot, he has a career OPS+ of 125. Nobody knew OPS+ back then, of course. He won those five Gold Gloves, and his defensive numbers do look quite good (even though he made a lot of errors). His overall power numbers look impressive — 342 homers for a third baseman is more than George Brett or Brooks Robinson — especially because when you glance at the numbers you can easily overlook that he hit 216 of those homers at Wrigley, a great hitter’s park. In fact his career home numbers tower over his road numbers:

Home: .296/.383/.522 Road: .253/.342/.406

Point is, looking back there seems absolutely no doubt that Ron Santo is a Hall of Famer. A good defensive third baseman with power and patience is one of the rarest kinds of player in baseball history. But many people who grew up watching him play — many of the ones I talk with — just do not seem as impressed.

Luis Tiant

Major achievements: Led league in ERA twice and shutouts three times … Three-time All-Star … Won 20 or more games four times … Started all three games the Red Sox won in the famed 1975 World Series … Has 49 career shutouts, which places him 21st on the All-time list.

What has kept him out: Mostly a numbers game, he came eligible just as a history wave of 300-game winners were sweeping into the Hall of Fame. … Career numbers felt just short.

The case: Well, as mentioned here before, it’s really self-defeating to use someone in the Hall of Fame to make the case for someone outside the Hall. Still, with Tiant is really almost impossible to refer to him without comparing him to his contemporary and No. 1 Baseball Reference comp Catfish Hunter.

Tiant: 229-172, 3.30 ERA, 2,416 Ks, 1104 walks, four 20 win seasons, 114 ERA+. Hunter: 224-166, 3.26 ERA, 2012 Ks, 954 walks, five 20 win seasons, 104 ERA+.

Catfish had his advantages … namely that he was nicknamed ”Catfish,“ he did win a Cy Young (awards again) and he retired earlier so beat the 300-game rush. Still, Tiant was clearly every bit as good a pitcher, probably better in some ways.

Tiant had nasty injury issues in the middle of his career that also hurt his career numbers. He was beat up in 1969 and lost 20 games that year. He was traded to Minnesota before the 1970 season and started off 6-0, but then badly hurt his shoulder, missed more than two months and wasn’t the same. He got released the next year (released!), was picked up by the Braves, was released again (released again!), signed with Boston and just limped through the year.

The next year, though, he reinvented himself and led the American League with a 1.91 ERA.

I’ve written here before about how brilliant Tiant was in the 1975 World Series, and a couple of people questioned the word. I think he was brilliant. He threw a five-hit shutout in Game 1 — and shutting out the Big Red Machine was pretty good stuff in 1975. In Game 4, he threw 163 pitches (Baseball Reference says 155, and I haven’t counted myself, but most places say 163) and held off the Reds for a victory in Cincinnati. Then he came back for the famed Game 6 and got hit around a bit, but still managed to go seven innings. And the reason I think it was all so brilliant is Tiant had NOTHING then. He was ”34 years old“ but even then everyone suspected he was probably closer to 45. He had long ago lost his brilliant fastball. His back was killing him. And the Red Sox won each time he pitched. I guess it depends on how you define brilliant, but I’m giving it to him.

Joe Torre

Major achievements: MVP and batting champion in 1971 … Nine-time All-Star … Became only the third catcher to hit .310 or better with 35 or more homers (did it in 1966) … Won catcher Gold Glove in 1965 … Did OK as manager for the New York Yankees.

What has kept him out: He has not yet been considered as a manager.

The case: I’m not sure how the Veteran’s Committee (made up of Hall of Famers) will view Torre. Will they take into account his managing career? Hard to see how they can ignore it. If they do take that into account, then he’s a no-doubt, no-brainer, absolute lock Hall of Famer in my mind.

As a player, I always though Torre could have received more consideration. He had a bit of a strange career. He began as a catcher and, obviously, was considered a reasonably good one by some people — he did win a Gold Glove. He was probably not an especially good catcher, though, and starting in 1964 he played quite a few games at first base. But I’ll tell you what, the guy could hit. From 1964-1966, he pumped up a 145 OPS+ — there with McCovey and Kaline, a touch better than Clemente and Stargell.

He was good the next four years, and then he had his amazing year in ‘71. He was a full-time third baseman by then (and not a bad one according to the numbers, though the sense seems to be that he was not great out there) and he hit .363/.421/.555 with 230 hits and 137 RBIs. He was quite good for the next two years, and then went to the Mets and faded from there.

And when you look at it: A career 128 OPS+ for a guy who played catcher more than anything else, an MVP award, some other great seasons, that’s pretty close to Hall of Fame worthy, no? It’s weird, the Yankees will get him into the Hall of Fame, but in some ways the Yankees have caused some people to forget just how good a player Joe Torre once was.

Maury Wills

Major achievements: MVP in 1962 … Led league in stolen bases six straight seasons and was first to steal 100 in a year … Five-time All Star (played in both games in ‘61 and ‘62) … Two-time Gold Glove winner at shortstop … Leadoff hitter for two World Champion Dodgers teams.

What has kept him out: Career numbers fall short; Modern statistics do not put him in great light.

The case: One of my all-time journalism heroes, Jim Murray, was very angry that Maury Wills was not in the Hall of Fame. One of Murray’s great skills was absolute certainty in his words, and whenever I read Murray on Wills I would think: ”Yeah, how the heck is this guy not in the Hall of Fame.“

Once removed from the hypnotic rhythms of Jim Murray, it became much clearer why Wills is not in the Hall: He wasn’t especially good at getting on base, he hit with astonishing lack of power (he never hit 20 doubles in a season), he had a 100 OPS+ the year he won the MVP, his career numbers do not look like Hall of Fame numbers.

But Murray was not saying that Wills was a ”great“ player. He was saying that Willis was a ”transformational“ player. He was saying that Wills, by running at will, changed the way baseball was played. He was saying that Wills, with his great speed and rangy defense, impacted games in ways that are hard to quantify. Murray believed it was a lack of imagination that kept Maury Wills out of the Hall of Fame.

I don’t agree with all of that. But I think it’s worth noting that Jim Murray saw Maury Wills play baseball and I did not. And the beauty of the Hall of Fame is that we all have our own view of what it’s all about. This entry was posted on Wednesday, September 17th, 2008 at 7:26 pm. Categories: Baseball.

By NO MORE BOBBY

September 19, 2008 3:04 AM | Link to this

Can we skip the 2009 season and pick back up in spring 2010?