Braves

By David O'Brien

September 14, 2008 1:37 PM | Link to this

We must concede: Dastardly David Wright is very good. That was his 30th of the season.

Then Delgado hits another ball over Francoeur’s head. So many balls over the RF’s head this season….

By N Nine

September 14, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this

chipper?

By Sideline

September 14, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this

Pulling for Chipper!

By Jake

September 14, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this

Lillibridge definately has to work on his hitting. It just seems like he is always behind in the count. He has the glove to be at this level, but the bat is not there yet. That’s the one thing I like about Blanco. He may not be the best hitter but he works the count and gives himself a chance to get on base by walk. Besides when you are ahead of the count you increase your chance of getting a better pitch to hit.

By Deep Throat

September 14, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this

Kelly Johnson is also second on the team as a whole in extra-base hits (second only to McCann) and fourth in the NL in 2B OPS.

Yunel Escobar plays outstanding defense and is starting to put up great numbers again.

The way people inexplicably talk about trading them you’d think the team’s middle infield was bad. But it’s not. Not at all. In fact it’s very good. People should lay off Escobar and Johnson.

The outfield, this worst-in-the-NL outfield, is the problem. Please get a real left fielder this offseason and don’t coronate the king of outs as the automatic right fielder for this team next season.

By Brian

September 14, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

Man, just looking at the Muts fans I think it’s safe to say they are a different breed!! Of coarse I’m from Chattanooga so compared to here alot of people are different to me. Anyway Campillo makes me mad with all the nibbling he does. Just go after those punks!!!

By The real slim shady

September 14, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this

DOB I just read that the Tigers might make Magglio Ordonez available. Any chance the Braves get him?

By David O'Brien

September 14, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this

Beltran playing awful shallow on Hoss, for some reason. Must think he’s become just a singles hitter….

By N Nine

September 14, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this

looks like Chipper will make the most of his last game at shea! Make ‘em pay Chipper. Spoiler role is kinda fun when you have nothing else to shoot for. Muts 2.0 downfall

By N Nine

September 14, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this

2 1/2 inn played
Frenchy 4 LOB

Signs pointing towards a normal day for #7.

By David O'Brien

September 14, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

Slim Shady: There’s always a chance, but that’s a pretty hefty salary for a 33-year-old, even though Magglio is still very productive. I think he’s owed about $36 mill for next two years including guaranteed $18 mill next season and then the option year that vests with plate appearances. It’s a complicated contract.

By David O'Brien

September 14, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

Good gracious. Make that 31 bombs for Senor Wright.

By N Nine

September 14, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this

David Wright is a star!

McFann where are you?

By blazerpunter

September 14, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this

WOW, David Wright should take the Braves pitching staff with him if he ever competes in the Home Run Derby during All-Star weekend!!

I guess the 3B for each team really REALLY enjoy playing against the opposing teams!!

Go Braves…………

By David O'Brien

September 14, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this

The power strong has yet to come around for Kotchman, but the man can play some serious defense. I don’t see that they’ve missed a beat there going from Tex to him, strictly in terms of D.

By McFann :Ô:

September 14, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this

N Nine—

Here I am. What?

David who?

By Steve from OH

September 14, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this

Deep Throat, excellent post at 1:55. I wouldn’t hold your breath on seeing someone else manning RF, though.

By Jake

September 14, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this

What I said about Lillibridge can go the same for Francoeur. I know he doesn’t believe in it, but his life at the plate could be so much easier if he was more selective not necissarily patient. I don’t understand why he doesn’t lay off those high pitches. He does much better hitting wise when he hits the lower pitches. Looking at Wright you can’t help but notice that he has some kind of approach to hitting whereas i’m not quite sure with Frenchy. I think he has more of the approach see it hit it. That pitch he hit to end the inning was clearly out of the zone and up. I can understand Prado swinging at a pitch like that because that’s his approach. He can drive pitches like that and has the most success doing that. While I am disapointed like so many people with Frenchy’s season, it is more frustration with me. Whether he believes it or not he needs some kind of approach at the plate better than the one he has now because pitchers definately have an approach against him.

By mbatl

September 14, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this

DOB, on Ordonez, he’ll be 35 in January, and if he gets135 starts per season, his contract is guaranteed for both 2010 and 2011. Assuming he stays healthy, he’s guaranteed $18 mil, $18 mil, and $15 mil for ‘09, ‘10 and ‘11. (according to COTS)

It’s not my money, so I guess I’d like to have him, but seems like a pretty big payroll bite for a guy that age.

Wish the Braves would’ve traded AJ for him 5 years ago, when it was discussed… what a difference that would’ve made the last few years.

Good to see Ryan Church playing again (despite his dimwitted play that got him, and Esco hurt). I like him, and think that KJ would be a very similar RF or LF if the Braves would give it a try. I know it’s not likely, but I think without the “pressure” of playing the IF, KJ’s bat would blossom (as others have noted, he seems to carry his fielding troubles to the plate).

By David O'Brien

September 14, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

That was one of the worst defensive sequences you will see, Campillo dropped an easily catchable ball and made a terrible throw.

By nolie

September 14, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this

I’m afraid that the league has just flat caught up with Campillo as a starter. I would hate to see the Braves count too heavily on him for next season in that role. He has to be pinpoint accurate with his stuff and they are learning to lay off it I’m afraid. Perhaps hewould be useful in the pen.

By StingerSplash

September 14, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this

With Tom Brady hurt, maybe David Wright can quarterback my fantasy football team. That ringing of his cellphone isn’t his agent with another endorsement (wasn’t Wright in on the ground floor of Vitamin Water or Life Water or some other thing that got bought out for huge wads of cash?), it’s Bill Belichick asking if he can come to Foxboro tomorrow.

By Lew

September 14, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this

I haven’t heard Roland in years. Good song.

By Deep Throat

September 14, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this

Who was it that was calling Campillo the “Mexican Maddux”?

Umm…..no.

By St

September 14, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

Wow. This blog is moving slower than the connector on a road work weekend. Anyway, this is from the Boston Globe today in their Baseball Notes, penned by Nick Cafardo (Now writing for Edes, Cafardo. Carfado for Edes):

Brave new world ahead Bobby Cox will honor his 2009 option year and return to manage the Braves, but he wants some changes. After 15 divisional titles, this has been Cox’s worst year. There have been injuries to John Smoltz and Tom Glavine, but Cox still sees both of them returning. What Cox wants is a dependable big bat in the lineup, a starting pitcher, and bullpen help. The Braves don’t usually delve heavily into the free agent market, but with $30 million-$40 million coming off the books, Cox has been assured that general manager Frank Wren is going to pursue free agents and seek trades. Among the hitters who might be on the Braves’ radar: Jason Bay (signed through 2009) and Matt Holliday.

By Deep Throat

September 14, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this

The Braves will not move Kelly Johnson to right. The great Jeff Francoeur is out there.

If Chipper Jones put up Francoeur’s numbers, they’d probably say he is past his prime. And they certainly wouldn’t sign him to a contract extension in the offseason like I suspect the Braves will do this year.

If Kelly Johnson put up Francoeur’s numbers he’ be out the door and replaced at second by Prado or Infante or someone else. As is such, the Braves will probably opt to keep Johnson for 2009.

If Yunel Escobar put up Francoeur’s 2008 season stats, he’d be gone.

Almost everyone on this team would be gone or replaced if they did what Francoeur has done. But since it is Francoeur, the Braves will automatically make him their 2009 right fielder despite this season.

Why is Francoeur so special? Why is he treated with kids’ gloves? Why does he get some many more chances than other young players?

Atlanta Braves new motto: “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”

By Hoss Cartwright

September 14, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this

Joe Simpson

Why wouldn’t the Braves be a favorable match-up for the contending teams still on their schedule?

Atlanta has the 4th worst record in the National League.

Perhaps you should go to work in the Braves PR department next season and vacate your chair in the broadcast booth for a real sportscaster.

By Steve from OH

September 14, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this

I like Kelly’s bat at 2B, but I’d rather acquire someone else than move him to the outfield.

Deep Throat, totally feelin you about Jeff…but he’s got a lot of (gulp) potential yet, and besides, they’re probably not going to trade him now, when is value is very low. There’s no point in just waiving him or something.

But if they’re blown away with an offer, or they feel they can significantly improve the team by moving him…I’d say all bets are off.

But to me, moving Jeff without being sure of capable replacements (Blanco/Anderson are NOT capable rightfield replacements) amplifies, not solves, the problem.

Did you know that Jeff’s line this September is .289/.360/.444? I was surprised, too. Fun with small sample sizes, lol.

By Mitchell

September 14, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this

This is a totally disappointing performance by the Braves.

I can’t believe this. It should either be 3-2 or still 2-1.

They can’t leave all those guys on base and make these stupid errors. I want to see Anderson and Lillibridge bunting up there. I wouldn’t even care if Lillibridge were to hit a homerun. He needs to keep the ball on the ground and use his speed, not popping out behind first base.

This is embarrassing.

Give me a break Tevares.

How hard is it to win a 3 game road trip!?!

By fastasballs

September 14, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this

The more I read about Cox talking about Glavine being back next season the more nervous I become.

Smoltz was still very effective in his short stint this season, Glavine was not. I hope Wren doesn’t pass up a better option because Cox wants Glavine back. At this point I’d resign Hampton before I ever thought about signing Glavine.

I hope this isn’t going to become another instance that Cox chooses loyalty over the making the club better.

By Bobby's Cox

September 14, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this

Dude, is it just me or is the bottom of the 7th lasting forever? Dodgers and Rockies just played 1 1/2 innings, and Tavares is still trying to get out the Mets with 2 on and 1 out.

Jesus.

By Deep Throat

September 14, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this

like Kelly’s bat at 2B, but I’d rather acquire someone else than move him to the outfield.

Oh I agree. I was just responding to someone else who suggested it. I definitely believe Kelly Johnson should remain the Braves’ everyday second baseman for 2009.

By N Nine

September 14, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this

Roger McDowell should get some credit for this year. Before all the injuries braves had a very good ERA. He suprises me currently with the development of Tavarez. This guy has been tossed around all his life and three teams this year. This year, his ERA stands at 8.52 W/Brewers, 6.39 W/Red sox and 3.45 W/Braves (before this game)

By David O'Brien

September 14, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this

56,041 tix sold, largest ever for a Braves-Mets game at Shea (although I should point, there are plenty of empty seats in the corners of the upper deck).

By mbatl

September 14, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this

Deep Throat, good Orwell reference…

I agree that KJ is fine at 2b, but if we keep him there, we need TWO corner outfielders, IMO. Frenchy is a disaster, and Blanco/Diaz/Infante do not equal one good corner OF. If we can find 2 guys to play out there, yeah, leave KJ at 2B.

But an alternative would be to find ONE corner OF, move KJ to the other corner, play Prado at 2B, and spend the rest on pitching.

By David O'Brien

September 14, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this

Shocker there. Or not.

By Jeff LOB

September 14, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

Today’s Jeff LOB total: SIX (6)

By N Nine

September 14, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

Best mentality towards getting players this winter: Get the best available infielder or outfielder and move kelly to OF if an infielder is acquired. Kelly should get stable enough with the bat and can play outfield. At this point we need few good OF’s whatever way we can. The FA outfield chooses is not great.

Pitching is of course the main focus.

By N Nine

September 14, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

Frenchy has been dead stuck in .230’s for a while now.

By Bobby's Cox

September 14, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

I’ll side with everyone here and say the braves would be better off with someone else for next year in RF than Francouer.

I’d like the braves to make an offer on Ibanez, AND get someone else for RF, like a Holliday or Bay. Getting 1 outfielder, I’m afraid, isn’t going to make that much of a difference unless the rotation is revamped (as suggested by Cox) by acquiring 2 starters.

Even if the Braves were to get 2 quality starters, I’m not so sure their offense could carry the team. They could be another Arizona with Webb & Haren. Here’s why:

But as we know, the Braves’ problem is they score so many of their runs in bunches, winning quite a few blowouts and losing a slew of one-run games DOB

This has been a problem for 2 seasons now, and the Braves need to consider revamping their lineup as well. The Braves need some consistent hitters in their lineup. I therefore wouldn’t be bummed to see KJ traded. A lineup without KJ and Frenchy? Now that’s wishful thinking.

That new stadium in Flushing sure looks like it’s going to be nice.

Another missed opportunity by Frenchy. KJ should’ve been hitting there instead of Infante against the righty. He’s in one of his hot streaks.

By Jake

September 14, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this

Why is Francoeur so special? Why is he treated with kids’ gloves? Why does he get some many more chances than other young players?

I understand the frustration. While I am in the minority and actually believe that Francoeur is much better than his performance this season I am still questioning their handling of him. I agreed with them sending him down and I wish they would have stuck with the plan. Francoeur has talent but he doesn’t use it. As I stated in an earlier post he has absolutely no approach to hitting and that just won’t cut it at this level. The league is just flat out exploiting him.

To be honest i’m not quite sure if it would have been KJ that Prado would not be starting right now. Even with Francoeur struggles he is still a fan favorite. I went to the game the other day and he still gets one of the loudest applauses. I know off the field is different from on the field but to a lot of fans his demeanor off the field still buys him some leway. But realisticly we have no one who could take his place or challenge him for a spot right now. If KJ was struggling he has Prado and Infante breathing down his neck.

By Bobby's Cox

September 14, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

mbatl

I agree with your post. If we get 2 corner outfielders, I’m fine with KJ at 2nd as well. If not, then consistency becomes a problem.

By mets fan in atlanta

September 14, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

Are you serious, n nine? You think McDowell has anything to do with “development” of Tavarez??? No, he’s just pitching to his capabilities—like he’s done at times many times in his career. You are looking at a very small sample size—which is why the Braves will not resign him.

No one is claiming Dan Warthen has “developed” Luis Ayala, the mets closer in the last month. He had 7 + ERA with the Nationals, comes over in a waiver deal, and now has 6/7 saves with a 2.25 ERA. But there has not been one word about “development”, just the fact a change of scenery has been good for him.

If you are looking for evidence of development from McDowell, check out your young pitchers who might actually be developed. Guys like JoJo Reyes, Charlie Morton, Jeff Bennett, Manny Acosta, Rafael Soriano…..oops, so much for that. Even Jurrjens has gotten worse over the season, not better.

By Deep Throat

September 14, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this

The Braves need some consistent hitters in their lineup. I therefore wouldn’t be bummed to see KJ traded. A lineup without KJ and Frenchy? Now that’s wishful thinking.

Consistent does not mean good. Andruw Jones is consistent this season….consistently bad.

A 2009 Atlanta Braves team without Prado and Francoeur? Now that is wishful thinking and would be nice.

By Bobby's Cox

September 14, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

Nice hit KJ!

Beautiful swing. Let’s go Braves! Two 1-run road wins in consecutive days?

By Deep Throat

September 14, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this

NORTON!

By mbatl

September 14, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this

Norton blast… sweet!

By brian

September 14, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this

I know that Norton is not an everyday player but the Braves SHOULD bring back Norton as a pinch hitter next year. Solid. Just Solid.

Way to go Norton

By Bobby's Cox

September 14, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this

Good AB by Norton. I’d like to see him back next year as a PH off the bench.

By N Nine

September 14, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this

There’s the old bobby cox. He’s making great moves in the ninth! Super HR!!!Dare we say 2 one-run wins in series? Muts downfall v2.0

By Steve from OH

September 14, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this

The “ugly stick” making this a very ugly inning for Luis Ayala, yeah baby!

Oh, man, if this is the beginning of another Mets collapse, I just might forget that thrashing USC laid on my Buckeyes last night, lol.

By brent a.

September 14, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

Next year: We need Norton and Infante; but, we need them coming off the bench.

By Random

September 14, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

Is anyone yet willing to admit, however so grudgingly it might be, that Coach was right about Norton?

By JC from UT

September 14, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this

what would ot take to get Matt Caudyer from the Twins?

By McFann ;Ô;

September 14, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this

HEY!! WAYTAGO NORTON!!

Keep it goin’, boys!!

(Sorry, woulda been here sooner, but the computer was occupied. Gotta split…there’s a “time limit” here.)

By Bobby's Cox

September 14, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

OH HE!! Ya!

3 run bomb by Norton! I posted that last post before he hit it.

Anyone see Prado beat his head in when Norton got back to the bullpen?! Love the emotion.

Mets collapse 2.0 in full effect.

By David O'Brien

September 14, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

As a pinch-hitter, Norton is damn solid. Should bring him back for that role.

By Mitchell

September 14, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don’t care if we lose this game. That was awesome.

Gotta add on. Gotta give Gonzo some breathing room.

Who knows what’ll happen, it’s just good to see that we still have some life on this team.

If Campillo hadn’t screwed up that double play, we’d be up by two.

I change my mind, WE BETTER WIN THIS GAME!

I wanna see some Tomahack Chops in Philly.

By Anders

September 14, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this

Ouch! That hurt. I have to admit I was sitting here thinking “OK if Milwaukee continues to free fall the Mets would get the Dodgers in round one.”

Got caught counting my chickens. And now here comes Chipper. Yikes.

By StingerSplash

September 14, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this

Brian from Chattanooga,

While I grow wistful at not having a Clumpie’s in front of me … Campillo really doesn’t have the stuff to go right after people. His fastball would get passed on I-285 by regular traffic. He does, however, seem to have an inordinate number of pitches fouled off, which means they’re good enough to swing at but not good enough to do anything with most of the time. And he can’t miss, because then those fouls might find the sweet spot of the bats. He has to rely on location and command.

By TD

September 14, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

I bet we are NY azzhole free for the next few hours.

By David O'Brien

September 14, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this

You could hear the breath sucked out of the place when Norton connected on that three-run homer. And Ayala was booed mercilessly. As he left the field, a guy below the pressbox could be heard shouting, “You’re a bum!”

By David O'Brien

September 14, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this

I think the Mets might just miss Billy Wagner before it’s all said and done….

By ncscoots

September 14, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this

This has been a problem for 2 seasons now, and the Braves need to consider revamping their lineup as well. The Braves need some consistent hitters in their lineup

Consistency comes with experience, if the talent is there to start with. Almost no one here clamoring for change EVER seems to realize that the Braves are starting exactly one (1) guy in the everyday eight with at least five years of experience. Even when Tex and Z-Man were here, the lineup was STILL very inexperienced. Blowouts and shutdowns are the nature of the young beast.

You want more “consistent” hitters? Get rid of the young talent, up the payroll to $180MM, and get some vets in there. Failing that, you let the young talent bloom (or die on the vine, that can happen, too). But to expect “consistency” from kids with two or three (or fewer) years of experience is an unreasonable expectation.

McCann had, for him, an off year last year. And short-sighted folks here were ready to kick him to the curb for Saltalamacchia. Why? Because McCann didn’t follow a .330 year with something equally humongous. Because he was, dare I say it, inconsistent.

And, Bobby’s, for the life of me, I can’t see how your infatuation with Prado over Johnson is much different from that situation last year with Saltalamacchia and McCann.

By Bobby's Cox

September 14, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this

Deep Throat…

funny stuff. What’s not to like? Prado’s slump lasted what? 3 games? Been on base all 4 times today. That’s the consistency i’m talking about.

If KJ ever does that, which he might, he’ll be the better player for sure. No argument there. I’m just getting sick of waiting for 2 seasons now for it to happen. If the Braves do decide to flip the switch on Francoeur and get 2 outfielders, then it would definitely be better to have Johnson at 2nd.

By Jake

September 14, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this

Alright Corky!!! Love the Blanco at bat, Nothing to lose so why? Let’s go Gonzo.

By N Nine

September 14, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this

THE CHIPPER JONES UPDATE:

Chipper 3-5 .365

Pujols 2-4 .360

Two greats at their best.

Muts fans you have no closer! Your using a guy that got dumped by a last place team!

By Anders

September 14, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this

DOB

I think the Mets might just miss Billy Wagner before it’s all said and done….

They already do, but I think they still have enough to get into the playoffs if they keep hitting.

Without Wagner in the playoffs though I can’t see them going far.

By mets fan in atlanta

September 14, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this

Good thing i’m not a NY azzhole…haha. Well we’ll know in two days if there is another collapse in the making. How the mets respond to this will be telling. The offense is more to blame than the pitching. How you can’t score runs off of the pathetic braves bullpen is why they will lose 2 out of 3 in this series.

By Bobby's Cox

September 14, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

Gonzales’ velocity seems to be getting better & better as the year progresses.

By Jeff321

September 14, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

Alright, I was watching the Dodgers/Rockies (tied 0-0 in the 7th) check back and the Braves are winning!

Why is McCann out of the game? Also anyone notice Corky Miller has a new batting stance?

By Bobby's Cox

September 14, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this

Scoots

If you read all my posts, you’ll understand.

Just read my lasts posts in the last half hour, & maybe you’ll understand my reasoning. You may not agree with it, but maybe you’ll understand it. I’m kinda getting sick of talking about it, if you can actually believe that.

The McCann/Saltalamacchia debate was ridiculous.

By ncscoots

September 14, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

Bring Norton back, yes, yes, yes. A bench with Infante (backup at CF and SS), Prado (backup at 2B and 3B), Norton (backup at 1B…rarely, LOL), and Sammons seems rock-solid to me. Add Brandon Jones to that mix to backup both OF corners (though I don’t know if he has the temperament for the bench), and that’s a bench with some pretty good pop from both sides and some PH flexibility, too.

By richbrave

September 14, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this

mets fan in atlanta:

Juirjens hasn’t even pitched a full season in any ML and you’re saying McDOWELL is the cause of his slight decline.? Needing to become innured to the grind of a 162 game season would have nothing to do with it of course.

And speaking of AYALA - ooops. See GREG NORTON who has excelled in a pinch.

By Couch Tater

September 14, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this

Who da thunk Norton & Corky connect for a four-run ending of Shea.

GOODBY SHEA! HA HA, GO BRAVOS!

By Anders

September 14, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this

Nice job Braves. Give Cox credit for having his team focused for these playoff implication games. The guys a pro. Go get them in Philly. I’m off to dinner. Be back later or tomorrow.

By N Nine

September 14, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this

Nice way to jet out of Shea. You’ll be watching TV with us during the playoffs.

By fastasballs

September 14, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this

Great win! Huge pinch hit from Norton. I hoep he brought back next season as a pinch hitter, he fits that role very well. He’s had a lot of big hits off the bench this season.

Taking 2/3 from the Muts was a perfect way for the Braves to finish off their last series in that garbage dump better known as Shea Stadium.

By Tomas

September 14, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this

Thank you Norton. Wow, what a game.

By Brett Butler fan

September 14, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!!!!

Braves come back and beat Muts in 9th!!

Oh happy day!!

By ncscoots

September 14, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this

I’m kinda getting sick of talking about it, if you can actually believe that.

I can, and I do, LOL. Never fear, my friend, I don’t intend to start THAT conversation again. :-) Just making an observation on the conversation, not on the relative merits of the players.

By Lew

September 14, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this

I love it. Mets collapse K2-08 has begun. Bullpen? What bullpen?

RichBrave-You’re right about Jurrjens.. The past several years he has pitched about 140 innings. So far this season he’s already pitched over 35 innings more. Not too sure I would stretch him out much more, though-maybe two more starts at about 6 innings per start. Many more than an increase of over 50IP for a guy that young can spell trouble.

By keylargo

September 14, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this

Bobby’s

That’s the way it goes with the Tommy John surgery. Guys usually can come back at 12 months but their arms are not as strong as they will get until 18 months. And supposedly if the operation is done correctly, as well as the physical therapy, the arm will be stronger than before.

By Jake

September 14, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this

Mets fans have to admit that regardless of the standings, that was the fitting way for Atlanta to leave in their final visit to Shea. The only thing more fitting would have been for Chipper, I mean “Larry” to hit the three run homer but hey this will do.

By McFann ;Ô;

September 14, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this

Jeff321-

Blanco pinch-ran for McCann in the eighth.

BMac’s AVG is at .298. Grove don’t play till later.

GREAT WIN, BOYS!!! Carry this momentum with you when you play the Fillies!

That was fun! I was really hoping they’d win this last game.

By Mitchell

September 14, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this

Why was I so worried about Gonzo?

What was I thinking? He’s Gonzo.

Thank God Wright and Delgado were up first in the inning. That worked out well.

I look forward to Katy Temple’s interview with Greg Norton. I don’t think I’ve ever heard the man speak.

Katy Temple sure seems to like that little vest she often wears and, you know what? So do I.

She da bomb.

Why the hell do the Braves only win in September? ‘07? ‘08? Oh well.

Braves go out with a bang in Shea Stadium. I gotta say, Little Shea (Jones) had a good day. Too bad his dad didn’t hit the big homerun.

I’m serious, I want to see those lousy low-life Phillie Phanatics doin’ da Chop!

Right now!

p.s. DOB was that actually the first game this year that the Braves came back in the 9th on the road? The only one I can remember was the 2nd game at Texas, but the score was tied.

By richbrave

September 14, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this

A final reason BRAVES must sweep N.Y. in ATLANTA - BOSTON was our home for 74 years. Maybe METS fans haven’t forgiven that fact, although I wouldn’t know why as they didn’t exist in 1952. I wonder how BELTRAN feels after losing 2-3 to “these people” from ATLANTA.

By Jeff321

September 14, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this

Thanks, McFann ;Ô; !

By BossLady

September 14, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this

I would be all for dumping Francouer in Kansas or Houston. If we pay Prado, Infante and Norton to come off the bench it would work.

Our infield is very good. They just need ample backups. The rookies Jones, Anderson and Blanco will be just fine.

Where we need to get up is the right field and Francouer should be gone.

Gotta confess I was watching Colts and Vikings, looked at computer saw the score. I did see the end with GONZO!!

By Brian

September 14, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this

I’ve got Mut gag juice all over me!! LETS GO BRAVES!!!!! LETS GO BRAVES!!!!! LETS GO BRAVES!!!!!

By Bobby's Cox

September 14, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this

keylargo,

I think I, along with most braves fans, understand everything there is to know about TJ and its rehab schedules. We’ve all gotten acclimated with it at this point.

The reason why I said his velocity was up, is because he isn’t supposed to reach those levels till next spring. DOB & others have pointed out that he’s reached 95 once or twice in an outing, but today it seemed like he was hitting that velocity pretty consistently.

I find it even more amazing since his recent blown save and chat with Smoltz about overthrowing and being patient with TJ. If he wasn’t overthrowing today, which for the most part it didn’t look like (except for maybe a few pitches where he elevated his pitch), then he was hitting 94/95 consistently without much effort.

That looks promising.

By Brian

September 14, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this

StingerSplash- Good point! Makes more scense than what I’d said about Campillo.

By richbrave

September 14, 2008 5:51 PM | Link to this

Sayin’ good-bye to SHEA brings to mind its predecessor, The POLO GROUNDS. The feckless METS played there two years before moving into the sparkling new SHEA. My, my, where have 44 years gone.? Never lost in memory will be “DR. STRANGEGLOVE” - “MARVELOUS” MARV THRONEBERRY. Never saw a 1st baseman become a stationary wicket time and again for balls hit down the first base line.

By McFann ;Ô;

September 14, 2008 5:51 PM | Link to this

You’re welcome, Jeff321.

Anybody else see Spotlight: Braves Off the Field? It was pretty good!

Best part was the end: McCann’s gettin’ ready to hit a golf ball, and Francoeur’s standin’ by the camera basically telling us everything he’s doing wrong: wearing a white shirt, he’s got the kaki shorts on, his swings not quite the way it should be—and McCann turns to him and says, “Will you shut up?” They were laughing.

And so McCann hits the ball into the bushes.

By cabravesfan

September 14, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this

McFann (or anyone else)- any idea if i can catch that clip anywhere online?

By McFann ;Ô;

September 14, 2008 6:13 PM | Link to this

DOB—

I just saw yer commercial! You know, the UPS guy…

; )

By Jake

September 14, 2008 6:22 PM | Link to this

DOB

Just wanted to know if you are anybody know what Campillo was doing in the offseason? Did he play winter ball? Just wanna know if he may be suffering from a little fatigue. I know part of the problem is the league making adjustments but he’s leaving a lot of balls up in the zone that he wasn’t earlier which leads me to wonder if he is fatigued.

By David O'Brien

September 14, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this

Fourth homer in past 26 at-bats for Norton, and as a pinch-hitter he’s at .333 with three homers. Solid….

David Wright has five homers and seven RBI in his past five games against the Braves.

By David O'Brien

September 14, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this

And with that, my work here is done. Headed to LaGuardia for a 7:59 p.m. flight home, baby.

By Lew

September 14, 2008 6:33 PM | Link to this

RichBrave- I saw Dick Stuart, Dr. Strangeglove, play for the Phillies when I was a kid. Lousy fielder, but he did have some good power.

Where is Anders now? When is he going to continue his Existential Journey through DOB Blog Land? What’s he doing? Waiting for Godot? Or was that Biederman We all miss him so much. Yeah, right.

By Mitchell

September 14, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this

Norton has either been nothing or straight up clutch.

I guess it works out.

By Lew

September 14, 2008 6:45 PM | Link to this

DOB-What is Norton’s contract status? I’d really like if he were brought back as our pinch hitter in 09.

By McFann ;Ô;

September 14, 2008 7:03 PM | Link to this

cabravesfan—

I don’t know…You cann try doing a search on foxsports.com/mlb—Spotlight: Braves Off the Field.

That worked for Atlanta Braves Straight Up. It might work for Spotlight…

DOB And with that, my work here is done. Headed to LaGuardia for a 7:59 p.m. flight home, baby.

Congratulations!

By Tomahawkin

September 14, 2008 7:11 PM | Link to this

D.O.B.

“Steve From Oh** Mentioned that He would like to see K.J. Moved back to LF, Any Word of Mouf of the braves doing so…?

I love the Idea of moving K.J. back to LF, and trying to acquire Michael Young from Texas in the offseason…Instead of trying to Overpay for Adam Dunn Or Pat Burrell (Who is getting dissed from Philly fans since he has Pulled another A. Jones slump in the middle of a pennant race…)…

By cabravesfan

September 14, 2008 7:12 PM | Link to this

McFann Thanks- I will give it a try

By Metropolitan Man

September 14, 2008 7:14 PM | Link to this

So once again Booby Cox got his boys up to play the “World Series” at Shea. I wonder if the braves will play with the same intesity against the philthies as they do the METS. Its now confirmed,, Booby Cox dislikes the METS more than any other team as do the announcers, fans, and Atlanta media. Thats what makes winning against the METS sweet for you guys and the same for us when we excersise the demon know as the braves.. There is no explanation except wasted opportunuties in the game that the METS squandered, and then the braves snatched an important victory away for the METS. See you guys next weekend at the Ted, I will close that place down all by my lonesome. I can’t beleive I’ll be actually rooting for the braves in your next series but you’ll probalby lay down and force the METS to play flawless ball for the next 2 weeks.

Brian I’ve got Mut gag juice all over me!! LETS GO BRAVES!!!!! LETS GO BRAVES!!!!! LETS GO BRAVES!!!!!

Please don’t leave statements like this on the blog, its too easy to make you look worse.

By keylargo

September 14, 2008 7:18 PM | Link to this

We purchased Norton’s contract in May of this year. He was in the option year of his contract and will be a free agent after the season.

By David O'Brien

September 14, 2008 7:19 PM | Link to this

Lew,Norton will be a free agent. And I think the Braves will try to re-sign him. I know he likes it here, and they all like him a lot. No reason the sides can’t reach an agreement, at least I wouldn’t think there’d be reason….

Got through security and we’re about to board this thing. Aloha.

By Harrison Dangler

September 14, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this

I really like the Mets Collapse 2.0 references. Their weary fans must be choking on losing two of three to these pathetic Braves, especially the way they lost today with no real closer.

Look for the Phillies to sweep the Braves this week in Atlanta, while the Mets continue their slide, as we see a repeat of 2007. That would truly be sweet.

Braves need to focus on preparing to unleash the coup de gras on the Met swine in Atlanta next weekend.

By McFann ;Ô;

September 14, 2008 7:24 PM | Link to this

cabravesfan—

You’re welcome. Hope it works.

By Braveheart

September 14, 2008 7:30 PM | Link to this

I have never liked Barry Zito bit I like him much less after reading this article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/14/sports/playmagazine/0914play-ZITO.html?_r=1&em=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

By Metropolitan Man

September 14, 2008 7:34 PM | Link to this

Wow, so the rest of the season is about scewing the METS and giving the philthies a cake walk? Well then you deserve to have your arse handed to you by the philthies. Last time I checked, the METS were still in 1st, and if the METS handle the next 2 weeks properly, it won’t matter what the second place team is doing. Besides, the Brew Crew seem to be giving the wild card away, nice little back up plan for the METS or philthies. How would you gys feel if the METS and philthies makes the playoffs?

By Jake

September 14, 2008 8:03 PM | Link to this

Hey Metropolitan Man this has nothing to do with screwing the Mets. For the Braves who have had absolutely no luck this season really against anyone this is about finishing the season on a high note. Injuries are mainly to blame for the pitching woes but the offense has just really underperformed for the year. Personally I don’t like the Phillies or the Mets and i’m not rooting for either one. I am however a fan of baseball. The Mets have had the highest payroll in the league for 3 years now and it hasn’t resulted in anything but high expectations and major disapointments. Yet the team walks around with the air like they have done something. Don’t get me wrong, they have had very talented teams the last few years and frankly they should be winning there third straight division title. The phillies on the other hand have been that team that is always right there and last year with the help of your mets they won the division. The way that team plays is with a never say die kind of attitude. They don’t wait for something to be given to them, they go out and take it. Sure the Braves have gift wrapped some wins for them this season, but that doesn’t mean that this team hasn’t tried. I want the braves to beat the Phillies as much as I want them to beat the Mets but by no means do i feel any sympathy for the Mets. Maybe if they hadn’t quit on Willie Randolph earlier this year they wouldn’t be in this position. The Phillies are fighters and I will give them that. I thought they should have gave up last year after they blew that lead to us in Atlanta , but they keep going. You gotta respect that fight whether you like them or not. The Mets on the otherhand……………………………

By McFann ;Ô;

September 14, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this

MetMan How would you gys feel if the METS and philthies makes the playoffs?

Um…I just won’t watch any playoff games.

But still, “these people” did a good job coming from behind to beat the Mets. Fun series, no doubt. Chipper had the kind of day I was hoping for (except he didn’t homer, but ya know…)

The Fillies are coming to town…If i had my way, then Victorino gets hit in the ribs in his first AB, and then gets caught stealing…

Dreamy music cann stop now…

By N Nine

September 14, 2008 8:05 PM | Link to this

Security please watch mitchell, this guy is obsessed witth katy temple. I’m worried for her safety.

ALOT less muts fans in blog these 3 days. Sniper69 where are you? I’m sure i would have seen you if Muts had a sweep.

By Steve from OH

September 14, 2008 8:06 PM | Link to this

T’hawkin, I don’t think I ever said I wanted to move Kelly to left. I think he’d be better there than Infante, but I would much rather acquire a real corner OF’er before moving Kelly back.

A lineup with Kelly at 2B and a guy like Magglio in left is better than a lineup with Prado at 2B and Kelly in left.

By N Nine

September 14, 2008 8:10 PM | Link to this

The Braves are looking to add two starters for the 2009 campaign. General manager Frank Wren has traveled overseas to scout Japanese pitchers Koji Uehara and Kenshin Kawakami already this year. Wren is thinking outside the box.

By Harrison Dangler

September 14, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this

Metro Sexual It appears that the Mets are doing a fine job of screwing themselves just like 2007. The Braves could not have won 2 of 3 from the Mets, by themselves; after all the Braves suck.

While I am no Phillies lover, they did not quit on Charlie Manuel last year or this year, unlike the swine Mets quitting on classy Willie Randolph. I can at least appreciate the Phillies and the leadership Rollins showed last year by living up to his preseason division winning.

To McFann’s point, the douche Victorino deserves a ball in the ribs his first at bat and perhaps a spiking while on the basepaths. Gotta love slugging Ryan Howard and the awesome Phillie relief corps. Think the Mets might want to have a closer with no blown saves?

Should the swine Mets make the playoffs, they will be lucky to even win one in the first round before being sent home to their mommies to wipe away their tears.

By Metropolitan Man

September 14, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this

I understand Jake, and you are right on when talking about what brings the dissapointments. Its certain series and games you hate to see your team lose and its others you can shrug your shoulders at. But at this time of the year and the way the standings are, METS fans expect a fight. There has been a different aura so to speak with Manuel here, he is well like by the brass, media, fans and players because he has gotten results so far. I loved Willie, I know what he did for the METS when he got here and I know how it was before he got here, horrible. I’m less concerned with the philthies this year than last no matter how crazy that sounds. The reason I say this is because the METS and philthies are more eqaul than anything with the philthies taking a slight edge because they have a closer, not the overall bullpen. The METS swept the Brew Crew almost 2 weeks ago and th philthies could follow suit. The Brew Crew have been struggling since the METS sweep and we have no more head to head games with the philthies so destiny is in the METS hands unlike last year when the philthies cashed in on chances head to head and then accepted the METS gift called a division title.

McFann You gotta watch the playoffs whoever is in it if you enjoy the game. I watched the braves in the playoffs all those years. Of course I rooted against them and wasn’t too disapointed year in and year out with the results.

By Tomahawkin

September 14, 2008 8:21 PM | Link to this

* Steve From Oh* I got ya…I was just thinking of a scenario of the realm of that possibility… I do like the Idea of having Prado as a starter…

And also I think That Maggs Ordonez would be too taxing on our payroll, even I do like his rockstar hairstyle….

Oh and has anyone seen How Joey Devine has been clowning for Oakland? His numbers are sick…

By Metropolitan Man

September 14, 2008 8:24 PM | Link to this

The Fillies are coming to town…If i had my way, then Victorino gets hit in the ribs in his first AB, and then gets caught stealing…

Obviously some METS fans feel the same way you do except its for Chumper:

Can someone tell me how come the Mets have never knocked Chipper down or brush him away from the plate? He has killed the Mets forever yet I’ve never seen him have to hit the dirt. If I’m pitching for the Mets, since Chipper wants to take home a keepsake from Shea, I’d knock him on his butt and let him take home some dirt. LOL! Do you think that ‘86 team would’ve kept letting this guy continually keep smacking them around? Enough already!

And that was around 2pm, before the theatrics hit.

By McFann ;Ô;

September 14, 2008 8:29 PM | Link to this

MetMan—

That was sort of a bluff. I’ll prob’ly watch some playoff games.

Harrison Dangler—

FIRST PITCH, baby!!

By Tomas

September 14, 2008 8:31 PM | Link to this

Jorge Campillo sure has struggled lately. I like him as a reliever, a long reliever spot starter or set up guy, but as a starter he won’t be succesful, for four reasons: he doesn’t have overporing stuff, has a doubtfull 3rd pitch, his command is off after throwing this many innings, and teams have gotten familiar with him.

I hope the Braves resign Hampton, and sign two more starters, and that will makup for 60 percent of the rotation, and with Jurrjens that will be 80 percent of the rotation already covered 4/5. And it would also help the bulpen, and Campillo to be more succesful. The fifth starter would be a Reyes, Morton, James Parr, or hopefully Glavine, or Smoltz, but they are not being counted on.

Pitching is the priority, when that is fixed, then maybe Wren can get a power hitting left fielder, without trading one of the top propects.

By Metropolitan Man

September 14, 2008 8:32 PM | Link to this

Should the swine Mets make the playoffs, they will be lucky to even win one in the first round before being sent home to their mommies to wipe away their tears.

Harrison Dangler I heard and read those same things in 06’ about the METS and once again they suprised the world. The only playoff team that was less comlpete than the METS in 06’ was the Cards and thats a testemant to drunk man Larussa. In METS playoff history, they have never been eliminated in the 1st round, ever!

By Harrison Dangler

September 14, 2008 8:48 PM | Link to this

Tomas Are you familiar with Jamie Moyer, Tommy Glavine, Bronson Arroyo, etc. There is a niche for pitchers with good control, less than awesome stuff, but good movement.

Remember, Campillo is an MLB rookie and has pitched a lot of innings this year, given that he did not start until May. I imagine he is suffering from a combination of fatigue, the league’s hitters preparing better for him, and playing for a mediocre Braves team with extremely poor second half relief pitching. He has also had to be more of a #2 or 3 starter, not a 4/5 which is probably where he fits.

I look forward to him coming into spring training knowing he has a job, be it as starter or reliever in 2009. He was a solid pick up from the scrap heap by Wren and his scouts. He is better than he is showing right now.

By Metropolitan Man

September 14, 2008 8:52 PM | Link to this

Well rooting for the Brew Crew doesn’t seem to be working, philthies taken it to them often and early so far. Whats with these franchises from Milwaukee, you can’t count on them for anything. Well for 6 more days out of the season I will actually be whole heartedly rooting for the braves and expecting the METS to continue doing what they have been doing. 9 losses out of the last 30 games aint bad, now they have to maintain that winning pace.

LETS GO METS, FINISH SRTRONG!!

By Harrison Dangler

September 14, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this

Metro sexual Actually the Mets did not surprise the world, they lost in the playoffs and did not go to the World Series. The Cardinals surprised the world. The Mets were able to poke their heads out of the garbage for a brief second and then dive back into the mire.

Refresh us all on how many World Series wins the Mets have in the last 20 years? Zero! That’s what I thought.

By Tomas

September 14, 2008 8:58 PM | Link to this

Phillies winning 5-0 in the fifth. If they win they’d be tied with milwaukee for the the wild card, and 1gb the mets. If you ask me, the Mets will not hold on without Wagner. They have great starting pitching, great offense, and good defense, but that bulpen is awful. Ayala as the closer, please be realistic that guy has an ERA over 5. That bulpen reminds me of when the Braves had Reitsma as the closer or Dan Kolb. Every time the Mets go to the bulpen I bet they’re fans need to be praying they can finish it. The Phillies has a great bulpen, great offense, good starting pitching(specially now that Myers is pitching well), and normal defense. They have a better team than the Mets, and they don’t choke unlike a team we know(the mets).

I’m watching the Astros, vs Cubs game and its absolutely pack, and absolutely everyone is cubs fan. Amazing.

By McFann ;Ô;

September 14, 2008 9:05 PM | Link to this

Bad news:

Grove doubled in a run for the Cubs. That’s his 34 double (3 behind McCann) and his 81 RBI.

McCann still holds an eight point lead in BA—.297-.289. But this race is tight in some areas, folks.

MetMan—

Don’t know why they never hit him—maybe if he woulda come thisclose to killing their catcher…

By McFann ;Ô;

September 14, 2008 9:07 PM | Link to this

WHOOPS!!

I meant that’s a NINE point lead for McCann: .298-.289.

Mea maxima culpa!!

By Tomas

September 14, 2008 9:08 PM | Link to this

Harrison, I know he has done a lot more of what was expected from him, but I think he is a better pitcher as a reliever where he doesn’t need 3 pitches. Don’t get me wrong, he will be in the 25 man roster, but I hope he has a role like Bennet has had this year. I hope the Braves resign Hampton, Ohman, and Norton, (and Smoltz, and Glavine if they show they can pitch), sign AJ Burnett, and maybe the Japanesse guy Wren has had his eye on. That would definitely be an improvement.

By Brian

September 14, 2008 9:33 PM | Link to this

MutMan- If your team wasn’t in NY there is NO WAY they would get talked about nearly as much!! I think Jake said it best on how they walk around with an air. Like they’ve done something special… PLEASE! We, as Braves fans can feel confident in saying that a team from the south do things the right way! I beleive alot of this “draft and develop” your own players has alot to do with the Braves of the 90’s and how sucessful it was.

By richbrave

September 14, 2008 9:46 PM | Link to this

Thank you LEW:

DICK STUART was DR. STRANGEGLOVE not “MARVELOUS” MARV. Got them confused. How about DICK ALLEN.? Did you ever see the PHILLIES with ROBERTS, ASHBURN and “GRANNY” HAMNER.?

By McFann ;Ô;

September 14, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this

Holy cow…Victorino (who’s up to bat) is 3-3 with a double and a run scored so far in game 2.

Just get it outta your system, dude! Just get it outta your system!

Grove is 1-3, still sitting at .289. They’re in the top of the seventh—Cubs are leading 5-0.

There could be more to come—then again, I just might be on my way upstairs…

By McFann ;Ô;

September 14, 2008 9:51 PM | Link to this

Holy cow…Victorino (who’s up to bat) is 4-4 with a double and a run scored so far in game 2.

Just get it outta your system, dude! Just get it outta your system!

Grove is 1-3, still sitting at .289. They’re in the top of the seventh—Cubs are leading 5-0.

There could be more to come—then again, I just might be on my way upstairs…

(Did this already post? It said an error occurred…Sorry if it comes up twice!)

By McFann ;Ô;

September 14, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this

Aw, crud! It did post twice!

Sorry about that!

Night, all!!

By Tomas

September 14, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this

Carlos Zambrano is throwing it at 98 with good control, he doesn’t have arm fatigue anymore. No hitter for Zambrano through 6 innings. They got Harden back earlier this week also. If they can keep those two healthy they’d have a really good chance of ending the 100 years of misery. Possibly a Cubs vs Angels series that be fun to watch.

By Tomas

September 14, 2008 10:16 PM | Link to this

8 innings of no hit ball for Big Z. He walked Bourn bu then got a dp. Wow. 99 pitches and going to the ninth.

By N Nine

September 14, 2008 10:19 PM | Link to this

TOMAS

You have to believe Cubs should semi-shutdown those two power pitchers (once first secured). The two stars are capable of conrolling a small series and taking them to the promise land. However, You never know when a small tweak can happen. Not a full shut down but I think about chipper as an example.

By Tomas

September 14, 2008 10:30 PM | Link to this

No hitter for Zambrano. First in the NL since Anibal Sanchez in 2006, and second one this year with Jon Lester. There was a lot of noise, Cubs fans everywhere.

By THB

September 14, 2008 10:30 PM | Link to this

I think if the Tigers trade Magglio we’d surely be in tehe running. They need a SS and pitching (bullpen and starting). I’d hope we could get a deal done without giving up Hanson, Medlen, or Escobar. That leaves us with Morton/Lillibridge/Reyes/Redmond and some other pieces. If we took on most or all of the salary, we might have a good chance. I think he would be a big help next season and some season’s after.

I personally think Hanson and/or Medlen should be part of the team out of spring training. Schafer should be given a shot. An OF of Magglio/Schafer/Frenchy is still unproven though.

I’ve been thinking, what about Burnett or Oliver Perez? I’m more worried about Burnett, he’s thrown the most pitches this year in the bigs. But both have ace stuff. I’d sign Perez to a 4 year deal at about 10 million per year. If we signed Perez and Lowe/Burnett, we’d have a good rotation. If we signed one of those 3 and traded for a top of the rotation pitcher, we’d have a good rotation.

To be honest, our team next year won’t be that bad. What really needs to change is their mindset.

By Daybed Wagmoe

September 14, 2008 10:30 PM | Link to this

Big Z No-No!!! At a neutral ballpark, no less. Wow!!

By N Nine

September 14, 2008 10:31 PM | Link to this

Z NO NO Z

By N Nine

September 14, 2008 10:37 PM | Link to this

wow wild card has seriously gotten wild lately! Phils are now tied with Brewers! Phils also only one game behind Muts. What has happen to the Brew Crew? …And then out of nowhere Astros have won six in a row and only 1.5 games behind!! When Carlos Lee Hurt his finger everyone counted them out. Plus they were WAY out before.Amazing. Wild Wild days ahead.

By ObiWanKobe

September 14, 2008 10:44 PM | Link to this

358 — The number of miles Georgia has traveled for nonconference games since 1998. It makes this week’s Tempe trip a rare treat and exposes the Bulldogs to an unfamiliar environment. The last time Georgia played a regular-season road game against the Pac-10 was in 1960 at USC.
From Monday’s L.A. Times

By N Nine (get Victorinoed)

September 14, 2008 10:46 PM | Link to this

Bobby make me proud. Phillies are close to getting a playoff spot somehow and we can love it again if we SPOIL the fun.

By rmr

September 14, 2008 10:48 PM | Link to this

do you think Anderson should be given a real shot to be the everyday CF for us? I really, really like the speed element he gives us at the plate and the field.

By N Nine (get Victorinoed)

September 14, 2008 10:55 PM | Link to this

RMR

I would say yes, We have huge holes in OF, Speed ,and Leadoff hitter. Anderson fits all those needs. Pending any trades he has a very good chance in the Outfield for 2N9 Year.

By Greg in TN

September 14, 2008 10:55 PM | Link to this

Evening denizens…

A rather fruitful trip to Queens this weekend after the Braves take two of three from the mets. The Offensive Assassin gets back into the lineup today and raises his lead over Pujols in the chase for the batting title to five percentage points.

Great pinch hit homer today by Greg Norton, who I would really like to see on the bench in 2009.

One disappointing thing to see was the day turned in by Jorge Campillo, who was touched for four runs and eight hits in 3 2/3rds and had a notable mental lapse on Dan Murphy’s grounder to first allowing Oliver Perez to score from second base. Needed to make the catch at first on the play and made matters worse throwing the ball away.

Start number three for James Parr on Tuesday as the Phillies come to town for their last visit of the year. I’d enjoy seeing some well played baseball against these guys, who has 10 wins against the Braves in the season series and I’m also curious to see how Parr handles his third foray to a MLB mound.

Does the Commissioner get partial credit for Carlos Zambrano’s no-no in front of 23,000 plus “visiting” Cubs fan at “neutral” Miller Park? There’s no denying that Zambrano’s performance could have been the same regardless of whether the game was played at Minute Maid, Turner Field or at Smokies Park up the road here in East Tennessee, however I believe the Astros and Drayton McLane got jobbed by the Commissioner on this one.

By Supes

September 14, 2008 11:03 PM | Link to this

do you think Anderson should be given a real shot to be the everyday CF for us? I really, really like the speed element he gives us at the plate and the field.

I’ll answer that…no. Bobby only likes guys who can hit a HR, and Josh isn’t a HR hitter. I know he “ran into one” down there in Florida, but that is a bonus you get from his bat every once or twice per season. Plus Bobby doesn’t condone the stealing of bases. Braves don’t run. They play for the 3 run HR, it’s Bobby Cox ball…hence whey they lose so much of the time in these 1-2 run close ball games when the 3 run HR isn’t there.

MetroMan I gotta give it to you, you are here today taking it like a man. Still disillusional if you believe your flawed Mets team is going anywhere even if they do manage to make the playoffs. That bullpen will be your undoing. Can’t beat the Braves…how can you expect to beat the Dodgers or the Cubs in the playoffs?

By Brian

September 14, 2008 11:28 PM | Link to this

Anderson better be here in ‘09! We need that speed and he’s great in CF. Supes, I think Cox does like Anderson and if he has one cell in his brain he’ll learn from this season to not just rely on the 3-run homer! Changing subjects, I like hearing FW going to Japan to look at the Japanese P. Something different and a look to the future(maybe). Those damn Red Sox will outbid everyone, but you never know.

By chris

September 14, 2008 11:45 PM | Link to this

As it stands now, the Braves have one of the top 10 worst records in MLB. Is there potential draft pick protected? And what happens if they sign someone else big Free Agent?

By Random

September 14, 2008 11:46 PM | Link to this

nolie: ”BTW … how do you go about looking up something that far back?”

Well, I just now tried twice again to get you that info, and twice again it failed to post.

I think AJC may have me on a strict word count. (-8

If you’re still interested, lemme know another way to get the info to you.

By Steve from OH

September 14, 2008 11:56 PM | Link to this

chris, yes, our draft pick will be protected. If we signed a Class A free agent, I think we would lose our 2nd round pick. I’m sure DOB knows a lot more about this than I do, though.

By Steve from OH

September 14, 2008 11:58 PM | Link to this

The top 15 picks in the draft are protected, btw.

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 12:05 AM | Link to this

Can’t beat the Braves…how can you expect to beat the Dodgers or the Cubs in the playoffs? Supes

Maybe the same reason the Braves can beat the Mets but can’t beat the Pirates or Nats? The national league playoffs, like last year, will again be a crapshoot this year. You get in, you can go all the way. The Braves, amidst all their struggles in 2006 & last year, felt that if they could get in, they would do well in the playoffs too.

Not to back the Mets by any means, but just saying.

Thanks for taking it like a man Metro Man. You too Anders at 4:43. So that’s 2 down and 1 to go. Just waiting on Mets fan in Atlanta to man up and show some, how would you say it on a blog, sportsmanship?

By chris

September 15, 2008 12:06 AM | Link to this

RMR

I think many of us fellow bloggers hope they give Anderson a shot. He does have a lot of speed, more speed than maybe Furcal, almost near Nixon. I can’t understand how Bobby couldnt have a guy like that in the lineup everyday. But then again, I am going to think the Mr. Cox gave Blanco evry opportunity to win the job out right after Kotsay was out and then traded. He didnt get it done. He may work counts but he makes bad decisions at the plate. But back to Anderson- With the speed and base-running ability of this kid, the guys behind Anderson should get more pitches to hit if he gets on base and causes some headaches for opposing pitchers. His speed is exciting, at least to me

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 12:13 AM | Link to this

There were over 20,000 fans that showed up at the “neutral” Cubs @ Astros game today.

Odd that more fans showed up at a “neutral” site than would at a Marlins home game.

Gotta feel bad for Houston.

By Random 2 of ?

September 15, 2008 12:16 AM | Link to this

I’ll assume you know most all the ins and outs of Boolean search criteria (if not, you can pick it up right quick by trial and error). After you specify your search criteria (eg, “random”, nolie”, “clemens” & “milkshake”), go down to the field labeled “Search within a site or domain:”.

Now just copy and paste the URL address from the top of one of the Braves/MIB blogs. Tailor it by deleting the tail end of it that contains the blog name, and trim/tailor the date for the time range (specific day, month or year) that you want to search within.

By Random 3 of 4

September 15, 2008 12:18 AM | Link to this

I’ll assume you know most all the ins and outs of Boolean search criteria (if not, you can pick it up right quick by trial and error). After you specify your search criteria (eg, “random”, nolie”, “clemens” & “milkshake”), go down to the field labeled “Search within a site or domain:”.

Now just copy and paste the URL address from the top of one of the Braves/MIB blogs. Tailor it by deleting the tail end of it that contains the blog name, and trim/tailor the date for the time range (specific day, month or year) that you want to search within.

By David O'Brien

September 15, 2008 12:24 AM | Link to this

Since Supes neither knows what he’s talking about on this subject, nor was he asked the question about Anderson, let me answer, as I have several other times recently: Anderson IS going to get a crack at the CF job, from what I’m told. He and Blanco are probably the front-runners right now — that is, unless Schafer convinces Braves that he’s ready and doesn’t necessarily need more time in the minors….

Now, regarding the UPS guy: There is one man more annoying — Chris Berman doing football highlights, particularly when he does those astoundingly grating and rather bizarre noises every time a runner makes a cutback move or breaks a tackle. Not even Stuart Scott is more annoying than that, which is saying quite a lot.

By David O'Brien

September 15, 2008 12:27 AM | Link to this

Daybed, did you see and hear the highlights of the no-hitter? Nothing neutral about that site, as everyone knew would be the case going in. It was wall-to-wall Cubs fans.

Not that Z’s no-no was any less impressive. Absolutely not saying that. Just pointing out that it was a Cubs home crowd.

By NO MORE BOBBY

September 15, 2008 12:37 AM | Link to this

NON BASEBALL QUESTION FOR YOU DAVID -

Being a music lover, are you going to check out any bands at Atlantis this weekend?

NOW THE BASEBALL QUESTION -

How do the Braves pick what numbers they retire for players? I think David Justice should have his retired and was wondering if that was a chance of happening (I know whats his name in LF wears it now).

By Random x of y

September 15, 2008 12:42 AM | Link to this

SIHT!!!

Looks like I’ll have to try line by line.

nolie: ”BTW … how do you go about looking up something that far back?”

By Supes

September 15, 2008 12:43 AM | Link to this

DOB What, you don’t appreciate the sarcasm on my part? Just trying to be helpful and answer a fellow fan’s question on the blog in your absence:)

Bobby Cox….the NL playoffs are NOT a crapshoot. Teams are in there b/c they have earned the right to be there by playing better than the other teams. The Cubs, Dodgers and Brewers can all throw pitching at the Mets in five or seven game series, usually comes down to the pitching, pullpen esp. Can you come in and hold the lead, or save a game? Mets pen is the worst pen out of all the playoff teams right now. It will be their undoing and will be exposed for the fraud that it is in the next 2 weeks, if it hasn’t been exposed already.

By chris

September 15, 2008 12:43 AM | Link to this

Where do we go with our offseason needs? I will make my observations once everything shakes out. There are still some players who will be arb-eligible and have their options declined so it will be too early to say anything right now. I know one thing for certain. Magglio Ordonez…? No thanks. We can use him but not at that price-18M for 2yrs plus an option at 15M. No way. I still dont trust those legs of his and Turner is big, especially in RF. Bad combo. The most available person at this point is Josh Willingham. 21 assists in LF, and 10 errors the last 3 years combined plus 47 HRs his last 2 full seasons. He missed over 50 games this year. Wouldve probably hit over 20Hrs this year as well. Should be fun this offseason, though…..

By Random x of y

September 15, 2008 12:45 AM | Link to this

I’ll assume you know most all the ins and outs of Boolean search criteria (if not, you can pick it up right quick by trial and error).

By Random x of y

September 15, 2008 12:47 AM | Link to this

After you specify your search criteria (eg, “random”, nolie”, “clemens” & “milkshake”), go down to the field labeled “Search within a site or domain:”.

By Random x of y

September 15, 2008 12:48 AM | Link to this

Now just copy and paste the URL address from the top of one of the Braves/MIB blogs. Tailor it by deleting the tail end of it that contains the blog name, and trim/tailor the date for the time range (specific day, month or year) that you want to search within.

By David O'Brien

September 15, 2008 12:50 AM | Link to this

Supes, I always appreciate good sarcasm. Just not misinformation.

By Random x of y

September 15, 2008 12:50 AM | Link to this

So if I’m looking for that “tiff” we had earlier in the year, and wasn’t sure that the search criteria listed above were specific enough to zero in on it, I would trim “http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/braves/entries/2008/09/14/justdontleave.html” down to “http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/braves/entries/2008/02”, and paste it in the “search site” field.

By chris

September 15, 2008 12:50 AM | Link to this

Thanks DOB, I have to think that if Anderson can stabilize the leadoff position as well as CF, that is one BIG area addressed. Did you see my question about the draft picks? Is it possible to clarify that for me? Thanks

By Random x of y

September 15, 2008 12:51 AM | Link to this

Or if I wasn’t sure if it was in Jan, Feb or Mar, I’d trim the web address to be searched down to “http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/braves/entries/2008/”, to search all MIB blog entries for this year.

By Random x of y

September 15, 2008 12:54 AM | Link to this

When I did the search specifying Feb 08, it zeroed right in on the one blog (“K.J. gets overlooked, but shouldn’t“).

By David O'Brien

September 15, 2008 12:55 AM | Link to this

Screen name No More Bobby: I’m covering night games Friday and Saturday, and flying to Philly very early Monday morning. Don’t even know who’s playing Atlantis, to be honest with you.

By Random x of y

September 15, 2008 12:56 AM | Link to this

Once you’ve narrowed it down enough, you can open the particular blog and do the “Find (on this page)” to search for specific text within the blog.

By Random x of y

September 15, 2008 12:58 AM | Link to this

Give it a try and let me know how it goes. Good luck. (And thanks.)

By Random x of y

September 15, 2008 1:07 AM | Link to this

Well, this furshlugginer blog of DOB’s now won’t let me post any links.

nolie, preface my response(s) to you with the following:

By RMR

September 15, 2008 1:07 AM | Link to this

Carlos Lee - would be a great fit for us. That bat is tremendous. Yes? But that aint gonna happen. The Astros are going to be back in the thick of things next season because the Brewers are going to lose Sheets and Sabathia. Plus his contract is similar to Ordonez’s deal and longer.

By Random x of y

September 15, 2008 1:09 AM | Link to this

“I use **Google Advanced Search.” (Link removed, but you can easily find it, I should think.)

This precedes the “Boolean” paragraph.

By Random

September 15, 2008 1:12 AM | Link to this

DOB: You’ve got mail!

By MiaBchBravesFan

September 15, 2008 1:21 AM | Link to this

Yes, Berman and Scott are truly self-absorbed dunderheads (I tune ESPN off when they appear).

By the by, love the renewed pairing of Keith Olbermann and Dan Patrick. Dude, they put The Band back together again! They def. need a bigger stage.

DOB, I’d love to see a feature on free agent OF’s, partic. corner outfielders, for the upcoming off season. I really would not want to spend major $$$ on Sabathia or Sheets; they are sketchy characters that may leave us suffering from the Carl Pavano Syndrome (did not want to dis Hampton, since I want him back at a cut rate).

I agree. Keep it in house and make Anderson, Blanco, and Schafer fight it out for CF. With the exception of LF, the rest of the field should stand pat - including Francoeur. If they stink again at the plate next year, blow the thing up and start over.

What ever happened to that power pitcher we got from KC that had Tommy John surgery? Did the guy do anything this season in the minors? How about the minor league pitcher we got from the Angels in the Teixeira trade? I know Anthony Lerew muddled along in his brief time at Richmond. I would hate to trade our other youngsters (at Miss. and Myrtle Beach) for starting pitching. The Mark Teixeira trade really gutted us badly - with way too little to show for it.

Man, when is Liberty gonna sell and still not tick off The Fed?

By Jake

September 15, 2008 1:40 AM | Link to this

I have to disagree with Chris. I don’t see how you could say Blanco makes bad decisions at the plate. I don’t know that’s like saying Jeff Francoeur has made good decisions at the plate this year. I understand Anderson’s speed is exciting but he really hasn’t seperated himself from Blanco for me. He strikes out a little to much for someone who would be a leadoff hitter and has holes in his swing that pitchers have already discovered. If he could make the adjustments he would be good but right now my vote goes to Blanco. For a leadoff guy he works the count and he can bunt his way on for a hit. He too does not get as many hits as you would like but at least he gets on base by drawing walks. He has to be my guy right now. I’m just not as sold on Anderson as so many others are.

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 2:53 AM | Link to this

Supes

I don’t think anyone expected the Rockies to win the NL pennant last year. The beat the Arizona Diamondbacks in the NLCS, a team that got to the NLCS by scoring less runs in the regular season than they allowed (1st time in ML History that happened)

Sometimes the hottest teams prevail in the postseason. The fact of the matter is that the Mets offense can get hot and score enough runs that their bullpen won’t become a factor in the postseason. Johan/Pelfrey can pitch complete games on the road while the last hooray at Shea atmosphere can spark the team at home.

In 2006, the Cardinals were 5 games over .500 in the regular season, but went on to win the world series with the help of a very hittable, suddenly unhittable Jeff Weaver. Anything can happen.

Stop making me defend the Mets.

By David O'Brien

September 15, 2008 2:55 AM | Link to this

MiaBchBravesfan: The power pitcher from KC got hurt again in the spring, had another elbow surgery and, if I’m not mistaken, missed another season.

Stephen Marek, the pitcher who came in the Tex trade, had a 3.21 ERA in 10 relief appearances for Mississippii, with 12 hits, six walks and 11 strikeouts in 14 innings. He was 1-2 with one save in two opps.

By gotigers72

September 15, 2008 2:59 AM | Link to this

Wonder who’ll hit leadoff for the Bravos next year? Blanco and Anderson have the speed, ability to get hits by bunting etc. But both strike out WAY too much. At least Blanco has a decent on base percentage, but IMO he is just a fourth outfielder in the majors. MY GAWD does Anderson strike out a lot. Excellent base stealer, but [one of the great cliches in baseball], you can’t steal first. Looks like he can handle center defensively, but in addition to striking out so much, has little to no power.

Most leadoff hitters have little power, although Soriano and Hanley Ramirez and others are exceptions. But the Braves need some pop from outfielders. If Francoeur could make a turnaround and they could get a LF with some power, they could put up with a CF w/o power.

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 2:59 AM | Link to this

DOB

I think everyone in America, except for ESPN, thinks that Chris Berman is overtly annoying.

Whoop, and Whooop

He. will. go. all. the…….Back back back back back gone (unfortunately, he’s not yet)

Enough already ESPN!

Adding to what you told another blogger, ESPN reported 21,000 or so fans at the “Houston Home Game” by saying most were Cubs fans. I think the crowd reaction during the game speaks for itself. On any event, you’re right….totally not fair.

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 3:12 AM | Link to this

If the Braves could mold Anderson and Blanco, that would make for one good leadoff-hitting centerfielder.

By David O'Brien

September 15, 2008 3:25 AM | Link to this

gotigers, you’re right about both Blanco and Anderson striking out too much. Anderson doesn’t have much time in the majors, and he’s not shown yet that he can hit breaking balls. Has three times as many strikeouts as walks, and is striking out about once ever four at-bats.

Blanco’s had over 400 at-bats and he, too, is striking out nearly once ever four at-bats, though he does have almost as many walks as strikeouts. Still, too many strikeouts for a guy with no power.

The job is Schafer’s as soon as he looks ready. But I think it’ll probably be a three-way competition in the spring, unless the Braves really surprise me and pursue a one-year CF. I don’t see that happening. Other needs are too pressing, and Schafer’s too close to being ready.

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 3:41 AM | Link to this

MiaBchBravesFan

Nelson Cruz had another good game for Texas today.

Not sure if Wren will inquire about him in the offseason, or if Texas is even considering trading him (he’s out of options), but he’s be one guy I’d look at if I were Wren. If the Rangers were interested in a trade, I’d do it, then I’d ship Francoeur out of town and then seriously look into getting Ibanez or Juan Rivera (both great veteran hitters). This would my favorite option to Wren if it holds water, because it will save money to sign top free agent starters and relievers.

If the Rangers aren’t interested, I’d look at getting Juan Rivera first and foremost, then Burrell. Dunn would be my last choice out of the 3. If the Braves were to get rid of Francoeur (Very Very, Very Doubtful), then I’d look at Ibanez. If the braves happen to trade KJ (also very unlikely), I would then look to sign Ibanez again.

Ibanez would be the perfect fit age-wise with the youngsters approaching (schaffer/Gorkys/Heyward), but he’s a lefty, and the team has one too many of those.

Milton Bradley and Manny Ramirez are other options. Manny being too expensive, and Milton with mostly DH experience the last couple of years makes them long shots (along with behavioral abnormalities).

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 3:53 AM | Link to this

The job is Schafer’s as soon as he looks ready. But I think it’ll probably be a three-way competition in the spring, unless the Braves really surprise me and pursue a one-year CF. I don’t see that happening. Other needs are too pressing, and Schafer’s too close to being ready

Too bad the Braves didn’t take that approach last year….they’d still have Devine (0.66 ERA, 0.81 WHIP, 3.75 K/BBm 9.95 K/9).

By nolie

September 15, 2008 6:24 AM | Link to this

Well, I just now tried twice again to get you that info, and twice again it failed to post.Random

thanx for trying, but if its that complicated that you’re having to write a treatise it’s prolly too hard for my old brain and more trouble than it would be worth to me. Thanx again anyway

By Run, Heap, Run

September 15, 2008 7:14 AM | Link to this

Great game yesterday. Norton is the man in the PH role … we must get him back for next year. Way to show some fire Braves, instead of rolling over and playing dead. Heh. The Mets fans are sweatin now.

By Eric C.

September 15, 2008 7:17 AM | Link to this

In case you didn’t hear…the M-Braves won the Southern League Championship beating Carolina 3-2 in best of 5 series.

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 7:50 AM | Link to this

I’d do it, then I’d ship Francoeur out of town and then seriously look into getting Ibanez or Juan Rivera (both great veteran hitters).

Bobby’s, how is Juan Rivera a great veteran hitter? His numbers are Francoeur-esque from 2006 and 2007. You would essentially be trading a flawed guy about to enter his prime (if he ever has one) for a guy about to leave his prime (one he never had). Good teams don’t trade the 24 year old version for the 29 year old version.

As for Ibanez, that would be a decent get for Wren but is still nothing more than a band aid on a broken bone. He’s 36. Old dudes ain’t doing as hot as they were 5 years ago for obvious reasons. Haven’t we learned our lessons? Since the cutbacks of 03, the Braves have been too inclined to take shortcuts with vets that are either too old or too broken down.

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 8:11 AM | Link to this

Bobby’s. here is some insight into Ibanez from a Mariners’ blog:

http://www.lookoutlanding.com/story/2007/11/8/23577/3144

For all the talk about Ibanez’s resurgent offense, though, he did start to show his age in another area. Defense. Yeah. I feel like I don’t even need to write this part of the post since we’ve been complaining about it for months, but holy crap is Raul Ibanez ever bad in left field. His THT zone rating ranked third-worst in baseball, even coming in behind Adam flipping Dunn, and UZR agreed, putting his -30 runs (-30 runs!) ahead of only Manny Ramirez’s -33 and Pat Burrell’s -34. This isn’t one of those things where the numbers differ from visual observation, either - any idiot who watched a Mariner game last summer could tell that way more balls were dropping in left field than usual. Watching Raul Ibanez play the field is so painfully unfunny that it’s almost funny, and how Jarrod Washburn hasn’t yet chopped him up and fed him to birds remains a mystery to me.

If you can believe it, Raul’s defense was arguably bad enough to leave him as little more than a replacement-level left fielder, overall. A replacement-level left fielder will have something resembling replacement-level offense and league-average defense. According to Baseball Prospectus’ Runs Above Replacement Player statistic, Raul was about +30 runs at the plate last season. UZR says he was -30 runs in the field. Even if you consider that way too extreme to be real, -20 works as a compromise (seriously, he was really really bad), and then you’re talking about Raul being about one win better on the season as a whole than someone like Jason Ellison or Jeremy Reed. If you’ve ever wondered how bad of a fielder someone has to be to cancel out an .831 OPS, 2007 Raul Ibanez is your answer.

The fact that Raul was injured for the first half or so makes this a little less meaningful in a retrospective sense, and it doesn’t do us that much good to b*** about it considering Raul started hitting like a crazy person soon after the calls for AJ really began in earnest, but this can’t be ignored going forward. Even if Raul stays consistently productive at the plate, that doesn’t mean he isn’t slipping in the field, and he’s clearly taken a gigantic step back from where he was a few years ago. At this point, Raul Ibanez is a left fielder in name only. The only offseason Mariner plans worth pursuing are those that involve moving Raul somewhere less conspicuous.

It’s not that I don’t think Raul can contribute in 2008. It’s not that at all. It’s just that he stands a much, much greater chance of being an asset at first base or DH, where he isn’t actively crippling a pitching staff that needs all the help it can get. As a left-handed DH who sits a lot of the time when there’s a southpaw on the mound, Raul Ibanez can be a big help. As a spasming corpse in left field, he can’t, or at least not anywhere close to the same extent.

One problem we have is that the Seattle Mariners, in their current incarnation, don’t have a clue when it comes to assessing the significance of individual glovework. They’d probably be quite content to lose Guillen, shift AJ into right, and leave the rest of the unit as it is. However, since early November should be a time for warm fuzzies, I’m going to go ahead and try to give them the benefit of the doubt here and assume that even they understand how bad Raul’s defense really is.

By Random

September 15, 2008 8:52 AM | Link to this

nolie: “if its that complicated that you’re having to write a treatise it’s prolly too hard for my old brain … “

Nah, it ain’t hard to do, just hard to explain. Once you’ve done it, itsa pizza cake (vice pie).

” … and more trouble than it would be worth to me.”

Well, you’re the best judge of that, but me, I think it’s great.

Especially when someone starts spouting off these days about this or that, and you just know they were saying the opposit in Spring Training. It’s often fun to revisit the past, and drag it kicking and screaming into the present.”*

At any rate, I did manage to post the entire “treatise” in a series of comments. Up to you. (Or you could ask one of your kids/nieces/nephews/paper boy to show you how. Or your wife (last esort).) <-;

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this

Exhibit A of the prosecution of Raul Ibanez for committing the offense of awful defense:

http://i27.tinypic.com/28akex2.jpg

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 9:04 AM | Link to this

Exhibit B:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/9359/RaulBobbleBoston2.gif

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 9:07 AM | Link to this

Exhibit C:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/6814/raul4.gif

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this

Exhibit D:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/9711/RaulError3.gif

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 9:11 AM | Link to this

Exhibit E:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/21578/IbanezKubel.gif

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this

Exhibit F:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/13630/RaulJoyce.gif

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this

Exhibit G:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/9362/RaulTrap.gif

By USAFCCF

September 15, 2008 9:25 AM | Link to this

It’s time to vote for the Ford C Frick award! Just a reminder to everyone that now is the time to step up to the plate and vote for Skip for this award. Go the Baseball Hall of fame website and cast the vote. Fans can vote once a day between now and the end of the month.

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this

Bobby’s, it’s simplistic to evaluate the Devine-Kotsay trade in hindsight. Devine’s minor league numbers weren’t all that extraordinary and, every time he was giving a chance in the majors, he looked over-matched.

Sure he had a pretty good chance to be a good reliever but the Braves were a team set up to make a playoff or World Series run with just a few breaks. As it turns out, about everything that could go wrong did for the ‘08 Braves and Kotsay’s solid performance went for naught. If the Braves had gotten the breaks they needed this season, everyone would be talking about the Kotsay trade as a good move for both teams. But now we have folks like you evaluating the trade foolishly in hindsight.

By Supes

September 15, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this

Bobby Cox

Just stop it man. I know that “any team” can get hot. I see the examples you provided, with the Rockies and the Cards…which btw, both had good pitching, maybe not great but good, and won a bunch of close games to get in.

However those are the exceptions! So there. I’m not making you defend the Mets, you are doing that all on your own.

Statistics show that dominant starting pitching, esp. power pitching is what wins in the playoffs. That’s something the Brewers, Cubs and Dodgers (more or less) have that the Mets don’t.

Mets would the odd team out, without a true ace power pitcher, and you combine that with their shaky bullpen, again the odds would be stacked against them if they made it.

Even the Phillies, who are now 1 game back (yeah Mets fans, 2.0 is coming! You know it, we know it, the Mets know it! It’s going to be fun!) have an ace lefty power pitcher in Cole Hamels and a good pen and closer.

Mets are the only ones who when you look at their rotation see weakness and their pen you see an opportunity to get back in the game!

DOB I’m sure what you say is correct sir, but you can’t deny that the Braves speed threat has been less than what it should be when you have speedsters like Blanco and Anderson. Anderson should be considered strongly for CF next year. He’s earning that right now. No sarcasm this time.

If he does get the job (I know, getting ahead here), but let’s say he does, he should be a 40 SB guy in 2009. Bobby has to change his ways. Why not take advantage of a guy who can do that?

By DAP

September 15, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

juan rivera? uh….no.

By nolie

September 15, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this

” … and more trouble than it would be worth to me.”

Well, you’re the best judge of that, but me, I think it’s great.Random

After I posted that, I saw later that you explained in in pieces in future posts. I guess even a senile ol’ fool like myself can understand your explanation, so I will play around with it and see what I can do. Thank you for the effort.

By McFann ;Ô;

September 15, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this

DOB @ 12:24—

Great point. Chris Berman is WAAAAAY more annoying…Though I don’t watch much football stuff. Just can’t stand his Home Run Derby thing: “Back back back back back back…” Eesh…

N Nine (get Victorinoed)—

Aaaa! No! Not “get Victorinoed”! Just get Victorino! We don’t need anyone getting Victorinoed!

Greg Norton is the kind of pinch-hitter I’ve always wanted: A guy that comes off the bench and you’re like, “Yes! We have a chance!”, as opposed to some other guys we’ve had in the past two years or so who made you say, “Oh boy…here we go. Rally over…”

We gotta resign Norton!!

By DAP

September 15, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this

supes i dont see why anderson is making the case for CF next year while blanco isnt. they are basically the same player. the only difference is one gets hits and the other one works the count and gets walks. blanco’s OBP is actually higher, anderson stikes out at a higher rate.

to me, anderson seems to have more potential because of his size….but both guys are very similar, and from what weve seen this year, blanco has an edge.

ideally, they would both cut back on strikeouts and have a little bit more power, but honestly, neither one of them are good enough to be playing everyday. we need a center fielder.

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this

I don’t know if Anderson and Blanco strikeout too much. I just don’t know if they get on base enough or hit for enough power or both. Blanco has good on-base ability but he doesn’t hit for very much power. Speed can make up for a lack of power but I’m not sure how much it can make up for a slugging percentage under .320.

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this

Not even Stuart Scott is more annoying than that, which is saying quite a lot.

Don’t know if anyone gets ESPN the Magazine (I only get it for being an insider, as I like some of the writers on their website. The Magazine is not very good. It’s way over the top with it’s attempt to be trendy.)

For some reason Stuart Scott and Stephen A. Smith are now the political spokesmen for ESPN. Scott answers emails and they often have to do with political topics rather than sports. First of all, I’m of the opinion ESPN should limit their political commentary as they are a sports network. Second, what more does Scott and Smith know about sociology or politics than any sports writer or sports anchor?

By DAP

September 15, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

maybe the braves should try to sign bobby abreu. he is having a very good year with the yanks….im not sure if they want to resign him or not, but he would be a good guy to have.

By Steve from OH

September 15, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

juan rivera? uh….no.

Thank you. Please, can anyone give me a good reason that we should sign Juan Rivera? Anyone?

It seems like the same people that want Frenchy out the door are the same people clamoring for Rivera. Insane.

By David O'Brien

September 15, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

Shaun, the reason that I said (and have heard from some in organization) that Blanco strikes out too much is because of the point you just made later in your 10:08 comment: Because he hits for no power.

If he hit for some power, coupled with his OBP, it wouldn’t be a big deal that he strikes out as much as he does, though you still wouldn’t necessarily won’t it in an ideal leadoff man. But for a guy to hit for no power AND strike out once every four at-bats … that’s too much. It’s not enough to just hit singles and get on base, not unless you’re going to be some kind of unbelievable nemesis on the bases and in the outfield with defense, something.

Can’t strike out like a power hitter if you’ve got no power. At least that’s not what clubs are looking for.

By David O'Brien

September 15, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this

Oh, and Shaun: I just saw your post above that. Good point (9:27 a.m.). I agree with that….

And as USAFCCF said, still time to vote for Skip for the Hall of Fame (Frick Award).

Go to the website at:

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/index.jsp

By nolie

September 15, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this

Statistics show that dominant starting pitching, esp. power pitching is what wins in the playoffs. That’s something the Brewers, Cubs and Dodgers (more or less) have that the Mets don’Supes

care to provide us with links to those statistics podna? Personally I don’t believe any such thing. Oakland had a pretty damn good pitching staff there fow a while and got nowhere in the playoffs. The Braves usually had one of the best staffs in baseball and only won once. Like Cox and Beane and others have said. the post season is in large part a crap shoot. There are things that might increase your odds a bit, but they often do not succeed. Cards and all those recent wild card winners pretty much show that although it might not have been as random in the old days with just the WS or only one round of playoffs, the modern era is much more variable. Not that often does the favorite win it all now days.

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

DOB, whether Blanco’s outs are made on strikeouts or not, as you say, it’s not enough to just hit singles and get on base, not unless you’re going to be some kind of unbelievable nemesis on the bases and in the outfield with defense, something.

Basically, I would say his strikeout are irrelevant. He must either increase his power or become an unbelievable nemesis on the bases and on defense.

To go back to a common example I use when talking about similar players: Juan Pierre hardly every strikes out, hits for no power and has great speed. Even a low strikeout rate didn’t/hasn’t helped him. It’s not the strikeouts that kill such hitters, it’s how often they get on and how much power. Even in Pierre’s best seasons, he was merely an okay player.

I agree, Blanco can’t succeed unless he develops some power (or remarkable baserunning and defensive abilities). What we disagree on is that his strikeouts are what’s killing him. It’s his lack of power that will relegate him to a “utility outfield” type role.

By nolie

September 15, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this

Don’t know if anyone gets ESPN the Magazine (I only get it for being an insider, as I like some of the writers on their website. The Magazine is not very good. It’s way over the top with it’s attempt to be trendy.)Shayn

boy ain’t that the truth. The mag is written for folks with ADD, little bitty bits of stories for the most part. I like thw site to, but the mag is a rag.

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this

maybe the braves should try to sign bobby abreu. he is having a very good year with the yanks….im not sure if they want to resign him or not, but he would be a good guy to have.

Like Ibanez, a big problem with Abreu is that he is terrible on defense. So bad in fact that, like Ibanez, he almost negates the benefit he gives his team with the bat. In other words, his glove almost takes away as many runs as he gives with his bat.

We don’t exactly have a bunch of flamethrowers that take the game out of the hands of the defense by striking out a batter an inning. The staff looks like it will be reliant on good defense next season. I’d be willing to sacrifice a good bit of defense for true bangers like Dunn or a Burrell but not for second tier sluggers like Ibanez or Abreu.

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this

It’s a lack of either on-base ability or slugging ability or both that kills hitters in the majors. Sure, these abilities aren’t everything but they are a huge part of offense or run creation, as most of you know. Look at the teams that score runs and it doesn’t take a mathematician to see that the teams that score are the ones who get on base and slug.

When we are talking offense/run creation, strikeout totals are secondary. Baserunning is secondary. Strikeouts matter because they are outs but a hitter or a team’s strikeout rate would have to be unrealistically high for it to start eating into its on-base abilities so much that it affects a team’s or player’s run creation. And a team or player would have to be awful or amazing at baserunning for it to affect their scoring and take away from or add to its/his on-base and slugging.

Offense is, by far, mostly on-base and slugging ability of a player and team. Strikeout rates and baserunning have little to no affect on on-base and slugging abilities.

This is why Blanco and Anderson aren’t likely to provide great production as everyday players. This is why you don’t see any correlation between strikeout totals and scoring. This is why you don’t see any correlation between steal totals or stolen base rate and scoring.

By Lee in S GA

September 15, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this

I think an asterisk should be placed beside the no-hitter Zambrano pitched last night. He hit a batsman limiting him from perhaps getting a hit.

By Steve from OH

September 15, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this

Did anyone see that the Mets playoff odds dropped 8% after losing to the Braves yesterday? Phillies jumped something like 28%. Brewers took a huge hit (-18%) after getting swept by the Phils.

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this

nolie, here is some info on the “secret sauce” it takes to win in the post-season (power pitching, a good closer, good defense):

http://www.baseball-analysis.com/article.php?articleid=5541

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NateSilver#.22SecretSauce.22

By DAP

September 15, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this

SHaun i think most people’s way of thinking about a guy with blanco’s speed, or anderson’s, is that if they put the ball in play, they will get more hits, simply because of thier speed.

obviously, that doesnt always work, as illustrated by juan pierre, like you pointed out, but, i think this is where that thinking comes from.

the truth is, as you have pointed out, that it doesnt matter if you put the ball in play…unless you hit it HARD(with some power), they will often turn into outs.

By Steve from OH

September 15, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

Some info on Strikeouts for a slow day in the office.

It’s a good read. Check it out, if you’ve got a chance.

By Steve from OH

September 15, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this

DAP, great point. If their speed allowed them to get more infield hits, it would show up in their OBP. It does for Blanco (and in his SLG, too). Not so much for Anderson. Definitely not for Pierre.

If Anderson was benefitting so much from infield hits, his OBP would be higher than .333.

By DAP

September 15, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this

braveheart i didnt not realize abreu was a bad fielder. got stats?

Lee in S GA I think an asterisk should be placed beside the no-hitter Zambrano pitched last night. He hit a batsman limiting him from perhaps getting a hit.

thats why there is a difference between a no hitter, and a perfect game.

By Richie

September 15, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this

I have to ask do we really need a leadoff guy with power? I think we have enough guys in the lineup to supply that lack of power at the top of the lineup. Are looking for a Jose Reyes or Grady Sizemore(who is an annual 100k guy, for a leadoff hitter) type or what we really need is an Ichiro type leadoff guy? Someone extremely difficult to get out and/or someone who doesnt get themselves out. We had Furcal, and after a couple of homers, he’d get that looping uppercut in his swing and have to spend 2 weeks getting back to slicing the ball.

By flange1

September 15, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

Morning All,

What a great weekend! Take 2 out of 3 from the Mets, and watch their bullpen struggle like its 2007.

We will see how the NL East shakes out, but I think the Phillies are going to win it.

The races in all the other divisions except the AL West are tight, too bad the Braves aren’t in it this year, but there is excitement in MANY cities.

Scoots made a great post earlier about backups, Norton, Prado, Infante, Sammons and B Jones are a pretty decent group. If you could keep a Blanco or an Anderson, it would be that much better.

Look forward to the series with the Phillies. I am interested to see if anything happens with Victarino or Utley, but I would rather see some good baseball from the Braves..

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

Steve and DAP, great points. Blanco and Anderson’s speed probably does show up in each player’s OBP. But speed alone is not enough to make them great on-base guys. Especially in the majors, defenses are just too good for any player to be above average offensively with just speed and contact.

By DAP

September 15, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this

richie having a leadoff hitter with a slugg% of at least .350 would be nice. this doesnt mean homers. this means some extra base hits. doubles are fine.

By Random

September 15, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH: “If their speed allowed them to get more infield hits, it would show up in their OBP.”

So you’re saying that if a player gets more hits, it shows up in his OBP?!?!?

Wow — what an FN’ revelation!؟!؟! You could be the next Ned Colletti.

Lee in S GA: “I think an asterisk should be placed beside the no-hitter Zambrano pitched last night. He hit a batsman limiting him from perhaps getting a hit.”

How ‘bout if a pitcher walks a batter — “limiting him from perhaps getting a hit”. Asterisk or no for that no-hitter?

What if it’s an intentional walk? That would seem more asterisk-worthy than an HBP. Assuming the HBP was not intentional — a fairly safe assumption after 4.2 no-hit innings.

You’re silly.

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this

Richie, Ichiro is tougher to get out than Sizemore?

Sizemore is the 4th toughest leadoff man to get out in 2008 while Ichiro ranks 9th among ML qualifiers. And Jose Reyes is tied with Ichiro with a .360 on-base.

Sizemore is the 4th toughest to get out but he is second in strikeouts among leadoff hitters. Sizemore has struck out in a little over 20 percent of his plate appearances.

By ncscoots

September 15, 2008 12:27 PM | Link to this

Someone extremely difficult to get out and/or someone who doesnt get themselves out.

That pretty much puts the kibosh on Anderson and Blanco, then, LOL.

“no power” means you can also squeeze the infielders and shade the gaps, since the player is unlikely to pull the ball or hit many over your head. In the end, your “no power” guy ends up hitting INTO that defensive alignment, resulting in fewer hits, and further degrading the player’s effectiveness.

BTW, Ichiro has plenty of power. The fact that he’s CAPABLE of turning on a pitch at any time means the opposition has to play him more honestly.

I say that, of course, having not seen a single Mariners’ game all year, and could easily be talking completely out of my, well, you know.

By DAP

September 15, 2008 12:27 PM | Link to this

richie for instance, blanco’s OBP is .372 which is good. his slugging% is .316 which is not good. that makes his OPS a measly .688. if he had just a little more power, and added like .050 points to his slg% his OPS would be .748 which would be much more acceptable for a leadoff hitter with a .370 OBP. hitting the gaps more often would do it for blanco.

By Lew

September 15, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this

Lee in S Ga-Dude, Surely you’re not serious. I suppose by your approach that Perfect Games should be categorized by how many strikeouts or infield outs a pitcher has? Dude pitched a No Hitter. Get over it.

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this

Random, well, it seems necessary to point out that hits that result from a player’s speed shows up in his OBP. All some folks want to talk about with Josh Anderson is his speed and they want to ignore whether his speed is actually helping him get on base at a high enough rate to be a decent major league hitter. And they want to talk about Blanco’s strikeouts but ignore how often he makes an out.

By David O'Brien

September 15, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

Lee, gotta agree that was silly.

I saw A.J. Burnett throw a no-hitter with nine walks and a hit batter. Still a no-hitter.’

If they don’t hit anyone nor walk anyone while also giving up no hits, then it’s a perfect game. But beyond that, there’s no separate category. And certainly no asterisk.

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this

Random, I do agree about the no-hitter, asterisk thing. It is silly. It’s called a no-HITTER.

By David O'Brien

September 15, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

For some perspective on just how few extra-base hits Blanco has, consider that Martin Prado has more (20) in 179 at-bats than Blanco has (19) in 421 at-bats.

By DAP

September 15, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this

in all fairness, everyone…if you HIT a batter it isnt really a no-hitter, right? it depends on what kind kind of hit you are talking about. i think the braves pitched a no hitter yesterday. didnt hit one guy.

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this

braveheart i didnt not realize abreu was a bad fielder. got stats?

dap, go here:

http://jinaz-reds.blogspot.com/2008/08/total-value-estimates-through-5.html

It says that Abreu is the least valuable defender in the entire major leagues, - 30 runs or 3 wins worse than an average defender. Most Yankees and phillies fans agree with that based on their observations.

Ibanez is the fifth worst defender in all of baseball at -18 runs. Most Mariners fans agree with that if you read their blogs.

It says that Yunel Escobar is the most valuable defensive shortstop in the majors. Most here should not be shocked by that unless we are just one of those morons who don’t like Cuban guys who always play the game with a nasty sneer stuck on their face

It also says Chipper Jones is the most valuable DEFENSIVE 3rd baseman in the National League and the third best defensive third baseman in the entire majors this season. According to the stats, Beltre and Rolen are the only ones considered better defensively

That would seem to shock many on here. Some of the reason for that is the intimate familiarity we have with him and only him. We don’t see the strides he has made defensively over the last two or three seasons and how he has turned from an average or worse defensive third baseman early in his career into one of the best defensively at third. We also don’t see the other third baseman enough to gauge how much better he has become than the others.

Maybe having it taken away from him for a few years made him more committed to being better at it. Maybe missing games because of injuries has allowed him to be more nimble in a way instead of being worn out from the grind of being out there everyday like his first 9 years in the bigs. Or maybe the pitching just ain’t as good the last three years and he’s getting more chances because of it. I dunno. But I’ve noticed many sabermetricians on different blogs over the last year or so marveling at how much better his defense at third has been the last few years compared to his first ten years in the majors.

A batting title and a Gold Glove would be awfully nice - and the numbers may support the Gold Glove this season

According to that site, Escobar is the 10th best overall defender in all of baseball (4th in the NL) and Chipper is the 25th best overall defender in the majors (11th in the NL). So much for the idea that The Man needs to move to first base.

By David O'Brien

September 15, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

in all fairness, everyone…if you HIT a batter it isnt really a no-hitter, right?DAP

Uh, no. Wrong.

If you hit a batter, or hit five batters, and give up no hits, it’s a no-hitter. Period.

By nolie

September 15, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

nolie, here is some info on the “secret sauce” it takes to win in the post-season (power pitching, a good closer, good defenseShaun

yes, I’ve read that first article and as i said there are some approaches that better the odds, but there are still lots os PS series that do not turn out the way stats say that they should. Just like a series during the season, it is too small of a sample size to make strong reliable predictions. Nobody I’ve ever talked to in baseball has expressed the view that any short series should be a lock. It’s all still odds, and over the short term they do not reliably predict.

By McFann ;Ô;

September 15, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

DAP @ 12:52—

LOL!

By flange1

September 15, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this

Sad News!!

Richard Wright co-founder of Pink Floyd passed away today at 65….

Major league bummer….

By flange1

September 15, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this

Braveheart,

Thanks for all the research today on defense! The Ibanez information was staggering and the Escobar and Chipper info is good to know.

I was one of the ones suggesting a move to 1B for Chipper, so I will be quiet now!!!

By Big Easy

September 15, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this

Sad, sad day. Richard Wright, one of the founding members of Pink Floyd, died today at age 65 after a short battle with cancer. Shine on, Rick. Wish you were here, indeed.

For a glimpse of Rick at his best, go here.

~E~

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 1:37 PM | Link to this

nolie, right. Lots of unpredictability in the post-season. The “secret sauce” is not a 100 percent reliable method of determining post-season winners. It’s about odds, as you say. It’s about which stats/abilities correlate most with post-season success. And it’s clear that the Cubs and Brewers, even the Phillies, are more likely to succeed than the Mets.

By Random

September 15, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this

Shaun: “All some folks want to talk about with Josh Anderson is his speed and they want to ignore whether his speed is actually helping him get on base at a high enough rate to be a decent major league hitter.”

And that’s what I just don’t get — why in the world would anybody look at someone’s speed on the bases (eg, Stolen Bases, or even Stolen Base Percentage) before they even looked at his OBP?

And if the OBP is there, what does it matter if it’s from infield hits, seeing-eye singles or slap-pokes to the opposite field?

“And they want to talk about Blanco’s strikeouts but ignore how often he makes an out.”

Yeah, I had copied DOB’s and gotigers’ exchange to set aside for a later diatribe about strikeouts vis à vis outs in general (very little difference; eg, Blanco’s got 3 SFs and 3 GIDPs. On the other hand, Kotsay had 1 SF and 13 GIDPs. We coulda stood for some more Ks from him.)

But your 10:08, 10:40 & 11:00 AM comments were so much better than mine would have been. (That’s easy to credit, eh, DOB?)

Thanks for the analysis and insights.

PS: Talk about silly! Did I just suggest the possibility of an IBB in a no-hitter?!?!?

Yes, I did. Ise and idiot.

By Richie

September 15, 2008 1:45 PM | Link to this

Sizemore has 72 combined K’s batting 1st or leading off an inning this year(which consists of 254 total ABs in those spots) and Jose Reyes has 63 K’s(in 291 AB’s) compared to Ichiro 32 K’s(in 255 AB’s). What I am saying is Anderson and/or Schafer can develop into an Ichiro type of hitter. Ichiro OPS is so high because he is a very disciplined hitter. And he does have a OBP over .350. They all do. I just think over the two hitters, Anderson would have a great chance at accomplishing that OBP rate than Blanco. It really is not necessary for us to have a guy at the top of the lineup who is hitting 15+ homers.

By Original Jon

September 15, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this

DAP Come on now, please tell me you were being sarcastic, if not, then GEEZ!!!!

By Brian

September 15, 2008 1:49 PM | Link to this

This might sound ignorant but this is all Francoeur’s damn fault!! I like JF as much as anyone, I mean, me and my girlfriend went to a game 2 years ago and he noticed us standing there above the bullpen and said wuzup and threw us a baseball. Awesome dude! But can you imagine if he’d hit like he can we could settle for Ibanez or Abreu this offseason. Now it becomes as much or more of a focus as pitching! Man, I think it’s gonna be a wild couple of months acomin’!

By David O'Brien

September 15, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this

DAP, my bad. I just read McFann’s response to your post, then went back and read rest of your comment, about Braves throwing no-hitter yesterday. Only then realized you were kidding. Here I am busting on people for not getting sarcasm, and I failed to read your entire post and note your sarcasm.

Hey, long weekend and night with our slightly delayed flight and all. That’s my excuse, my story, and I’m sticking with it.

By Brian

September 15, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this

DOB- There’s a band(Pink Floyd) we might have in common!

By David O'Brien

September 15, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this

Braveheart, regarding Chipper: As much as it’s been brought up here in the past year, two years, people should realize that the idea of moving Chipper to 1B has not been seriously considered since the brief experiment a few years back, when he was having a lot of persistent foot and other problems and moved over to 1B for grounders during pregame drills. He was uncomfortable as hell over there, and that was that. Experiment aborted, and not discussed since then (except by fans, bloggers, etc).

Anyone who’s watched him the past couple of years realizes he’s been a strength defensively for the Braves, not a liability. Or at least I’d hope people could see that. He played Gold Glove-caliber D in 2007 and, this season he’s played solid D other than a couple of brutal games .

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this

What I am saying is Anderson and/or Schafer can develop into an Ichiro type of hitter.

step away from the crack pipe………….

By Braves20

September 15, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

Been busy emailing all my Philies friends this morning with “You’re Welcome.”

What an interesting off season it will be. Finding some power for the OF; a couple arms that can consistently make it to the sixth or seventh and figuring out CF - Anderson appears to have the greatest upside but has to shed the K’s.

Assuming we can hold on to what we have on the bench, that is the one area we won’t have to address for a change. Imagine no Craig Wilsons or Chris Woodwards.

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

Richie, first of all, Sizemore has been better than Ichiro.

Second, Ichiro’s K rates are ridiculously low and it’s not as if he slugs under .400. It’s going to be very difficult for Blanco, Anderson or anyone to become an Ichiro-type hitter. It’ s just not realistic to expect that. It’s more realistic to expect more power.

In order for Blanco and Anderson to become like Ichiro, they would have to cut their strikeout rates by 7-10 percent and improve their slugging significantly.

By N Nine (whose getting Victorinoed?)

September 15, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this

Great point on chipper’s feet DOB. No way Chipper should change positions at this part of his career.

Great to know Chipper has enough at bats to qualify to BA Title.

By Wayne

September 15, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this

Chances are Blanco and Anderson will develop into Willy Taveras type hitters before they become Ichiro type hitters. Schafer or Hernandez are more likely the future for the Braves in centerfield.

While Blanco and Anderson have been pleasant surprises this year, they are probably 4th/5th outfielders at best in 2-3 years, if they are still in the league.

My two cents worth….

By McFann ;Ô;

September 15, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

Grove struck out swinging. 0-1, .288.

N Nine (whose getting Victorinoed?)

Hopefully no one!

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this

The thing about moving Chipper to first is the Braves would still need a thirdbaseman. And it’s not easy for find an adequate defensive thirdbaseman who can also hit like a thirdbaseman needs to hit. It’s much easier to find an adequate firstbaseman.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

September 15, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this

Damn. What sucky news that is about Rick Wright. The world just lost another outstanding musician. It’s a sad, sad day, as I’m a huge Floyd Fan.

“Strangers passing in the street,

by chance two separate glances meet,

and I am you, and what I see is me.”

By N Nine (Feeling victorinoed)

September 15, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this

McFann that is my frustrations with Bobby not being like a manager Lou. Where is the fight? We very well could since we never retalitate and Fighting Phillies could get testy is we spoil their run.

By Tim S.

September 15, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

I think people continue to shortchange Omar Infante. He is just 26 years old and has put up pretty good numbers the past few years. BTW, he has some pretty good numbers this year in what has been more of a starting role than a bench role. Remember he missed over a month at the start of the season and has nearly 300 ABs. I live in Detroit, where he started at 2B in 2004 and was outstanding at second base and posted really good power numbers. He has 21 doubles this year, so that shouldn’t be discounted. If he becomes a “bench” player his production won’t be as solid. I would like to see Omar get a crack at second base in 2009 — if not in ATL then elsewhere.

By McFann ;Ô;

September 15, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this

N Nine (Feeling victorinoed) We very well could since we never retalitate and Fighting Phillies could get testy is we spoil their run.

Egad! I hope not!

Gotta give props to Victorino for calling after the game to check on Mac, but…

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this

Infield hits would NOT show up in OBP.

OBP would increase, but so would BA. So, the difference between BA and OBP (how often a player gets on besides a hit) would be a wash.

I don’t see anyone’s connection on how speed shows up in OBP since it would show up in BA as well. Might as well say speed shows up in BA>

If you think staying out of DP’s (speed) increases OBP, you’re wrong. Fielder’s choices and reached-on-errors don’t count for OBP either ( I know McFann & someone else didn’t know the other day).

By Couch Tater

September 15, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this

There are players I hate, and then there are players like Chipper, who I hate but respect, if for no other reason than he gets it…He understands that baseball should be fun, it’s entertainment, he understands the idea of rivalry…and while it frustrates the hell out of me, I appreciate it, all while hoping he fails miserable…Matthew Cerrone- Metsblog.

I thought there were some cool comments about Chipper and the respect he gets over there. The article was about Chipper buying the orange seats from Shea.

By TennesseePaul

September 15, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this

I’d agree with DOB on the K rate of Blanco as juxtaposed with his slugging and OBP. He offers very little and the K rate doesn’t help. He’s fast enough to “make things happen” if he puts the ball in play, but he doesn’t, as his K rate shows. And he doesn’t make up for it by Slugging or getting OBP often enough. Additionally the example of Pierre’s K rate is flawed in that Pierre isn’t anything more than a pinch runner. He isn’t a good defender. He isn’t a good hitter. He might not strike out a lot but every other tool in the shed is shot. I would agree that Blanco isn’t a prime candidate for full time play. I’m just saying his K rate makes the issue even worse.

By McFann ;Ô;

September 15, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this

Bobby’s Cox—

Correct. (It was Keylargo and I that were wondering.) The only way to increase OBP without increasing AVG is with a walk, correct?

Grove’s gonna leadoff the top of the fifth. Stay tuned.

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this

Bobby’s, huh? OBP takes hits and walks and HBP into account. So an infield hit due to a players speed would count in his OBP.

And, you’re right that fielder’s choices and reaching on errors don’t count in OBP (actually fielder’s choices count as outs). True, these are very helpful things but are fielder’s choices and forcing errors a huge part of a player’s contributions? Yes, these things certainly help and contribute but you don’t want to look at these before you look at on-base or slugging ability.

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

Shaun

You’re freaking kidding me right? You’re probably the only guy that puts too much emphasis on minor league stats. BUT, Devine did have good minor league stats. WHERE ARE YOU LOOKING?

Last year, in 33 games with Mississippi (35 IP), Devine had a 2.03 era and 51K! That’s a 13.11 K/9 and he had a 1.11 WHIP

In Richmond, he had a 1.64 ERA with 27 K in 22 IP, good for 11.05 K/9 combined with a 0.95 WHIP.

His HR/9 were 0.26 and 0.41, respectively.

That’s not good enough from your former #1 draft pick? Are you kidding me stat boy?

Jesus man. The Devine trade was one of the worst the organization ever made. Any pitcher with a double-digit K/9 in the minors is not one you should be trading for an injury-prone, stop-gap centerfielder. The Cubs, Padres, and Cardinals never even gave up as much for Jim Freakin’ Edmonds!

Holy mother Shaun….

By flange1

September 15, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this

Interesting conversation on CF.

Amazing to have Blanco and Anderson compared to Icharo and W Taverez in the space of 6 posts!!

If we remember last year at this time, folks were not real up on Blanco at all. A few of us were pushing for him to be the “stop gap” but the blog in general had no love for Blanco.

I think that Blanco has improved and is improving. I don’t think his defense is the greatest in the world, but he is getting better with the bat. I love the way he bunts (maybe that is because no one else on the team can bunt.)

Will he become a superstar? Probably not, but he will be a serviceable 4th or 5th outfield guy.

In terms of Anderson, I really wanted him on the team coming out of Spring Training. I ma VERY impressed with his defense and his base running is real fun to watch.

As a hitter, if he is ahead in the count, he is pretty good. If he gets behind, he will probably strike out.

I do see more power in the short time that he has been here than I was expecting. He has hit a couple balls in the gaps that were impressive.

To me, his speed and base running ability make him a more valuable 4th or 5th guy. I can see him really helping the team as a pinch runner and defensive replacement.

To me the real problem is that both of these guys are LH. If either was RH, we could use the 2 together as the stop gap to Schafer.

By beekay

September 15, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this

DOB I went to the Pelican’s final game up here in DC. Their firstbaseman Mejia hit 2 bombs. We had field seats and this guy was enormous up close. Why isn’t he considered a top prospect? On another note Jason Heyward looked overmatched. He swang late consistently and only hit one ball on the nose which was a groundout to first. After the game Gorkys stayed on the bench in the dugout. He seemed to be the only one that really was p** off that they lost. He has a sweet line drive swing and plays with terrific speed. I think he will eventually battle Anderson, Blanco and Schaffer in the years to come.

By McFann ;Ô;

September 15, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this

Oh yeah, HBP…I forgot that one…How stupid of me…

So walks and HBP are the only ways to increase OBP without increasing AVG.

Speaking of such, Grove just decreased his OBP and AVG: Ground out—0-2, .287!

Later!

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this

Wouldn’t Blanco’s walk rate decrease if he K’d less? One reason he may be striking out alot is that he works the count, which gets him alot of walks but also often gets him too deep into a count which makes it easier to K him. You’d wish that working the count like that would also increase his slugging % since the whole idea of working the count is to either get a walk or, more ideally, to wait for a ball thrown into your own little hitting zone that you can drive hard and far. Trying to reduce his Ks could be dangerous for him as a hitter because it runs the risk of taking away the one thing he does well: get on base via the walk.

By nolie

September 15, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this

Infield hits would NOT show up in OBP.BobbysCox

huh??? Where did that come from? Of course they would. OBP includes hits, so the more hits a guy got in a certain number of ABs, the higher his OBP will be. The more ground ball outs he can turn into hits, the higher his OBP.

By Steve from OH

September 15, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

Sizemore has 72 combined K’s batting 1st or leading off an inning this year(which consists of 254 total ABs in those spots) and Jose Reyes has 63 K’s(in 291 AB’s) compared to Ichiro 32 K’s(in 255 AB’s). What I am saying is Anderson and/or Schafer can develop into an Ichiro type of hitter. Ichiro OPS is so high because he is a very disciplined hitter. And he does have a OBP over .350. They all do. I just think over the two hitters, Anderson would have a great chance at accomplishing that OBP rate than Blanco. It really is not necessary for us to have a guy at the top of the lineup who is hitting 15+ homers.

Sure, we might not need as CF with 15 homers, but it wouldn’t hurt, would it? I mean, why would we want a guy with an .850 OPS with outstanding defensive skills and a cannon arm when we could have a guy with a .715 OPS?

What’s that? You think he’s more likely to have a higher OBP than Blanco? His minor league career OBP is less than Blanco’s? But let me guess, it’s ok because he’s like, really fast and doesn’t strike out alot, right?

By bravos2249

September 15, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

I don’t know if anyone knows but Ned Yost just got fired.

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this

TennPaul, yes, I agree to a certain extent. But I’d also add that even if he improved his K rate significantly, he still likely wouldn’t be a great player…unless he also improved his ability to hit for power significantly.

I don’t think there is any such thing, at the major league level, as a guy who is fast enough to “make things happen” just by putting the ball in play and being fast. Defenses are too good and no player is that fast.

I think Pierre in his best seasons is a fair comparison to Blanco. In Pierre’s best two seasons he had OBPs of .361 and .374 and SLGs of .373 and .407. And even in those seasons he was just an okay offensive player, namely because on-base and slugging are by far the most significant factors in creating runs for a team. In fact, Blanco is probably a little worse than Pierre at his best, offensively.

By Random

September 15, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this

Wayne in Utah —

I called you some pretty nasty names the other day, and I’ve been regretting it ever since. I shouldn’t have done that — I have no excuse, there was no justification — and I’d like to apologize.

I’m sorry.

By Steve from OH

September 15, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

Infield hits would NOT show up in OBP.

Beg Pardon? A player with a lot of infield hits would have a higher OBP than one w/o lots of infield hits, all other factors held constant, would they not?

My point was that (some) people think because a person is very fast that they somehow tend to get on base more that a normal person because of infield hits, and that this concept is not always true. But this notion can easily be disproved by simply pointing out: “Player A has a .333 OBP, so therefore he is not getting on base more often than a person of average speed, infield hits included.”

By flange1

September 15, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

I agree with you on the Devine trade. He was decent with the Braves (NOT outstanding), he did not have the confidence of the manager, and the scouting reviews that I read on him suggested that his lack of control made him an average middle reliever.

I hope he can be more than that, I have always liked Devine, but I think he will be Tyler Yates II.

By nolie

September 15, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

Anybody into Brotherhood on Showtime? I just finished watching the first season on DVD, never having watched any on TV. Not a bad series, at least in the first year so far. Year 2 comes out soon on DVD. Kind ofa poor man’s Sopranos. Episode 5 ended with one of my favorire songs by Bobby Z…Things Have Changed.

By Goodoleboy58

September 15, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this

Brewers fired manager Ned Yost. With two weeks left to go and the team tied for the lead in the wild-card race. This is an incredibly bold stroke, but it just might work out. Yost was a goner anyway if the Brewers failed to make it to the postseason, and it seems like everything he had tried of late has backfired. In his defense, it’s not like he’s had any easy choices with his bullpen. Replacing Yost will be the third-base coach, Dale Sveum. Bench coach Ted Simmons has been reassigned to an advisory role. Sep. 15 - 3:14 pm et

By 22oz

September 15, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

So the Brewers are in the thick of the playoff race, and fire their manager? Hmmmm. What Brewer executive’s cornflakes did he pee in?

By DAP

September 15, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

braveheart thanx for the link…the info on the page linked has offensive information and is talking about MVP and stuff….where do i navagate from there to find abreu as the third worst fielder?

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this

I don’t know if anyone knows but Ned Yost just got fired.

Wow! Raw deal for Ned.

Come home Ned. Name Ned Bobby’s successor for when Bobby retires like Jimbo Fisher has been named Bowden’s successor.

We just got our manager of the future back if the Braves are smart and take advantage of this ……..

By Renegator

September 15, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this

Ned Yost for Braves manager in 2009.

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this

Braveheart,

for the amount of time you put in, i’ll go ahead and retract on my ibanez statements. That defense is pretty aweful. Thanks, but no thanks, for attacking my statement like you did since I mentioned Ibanez would be a last option anyway because he’d be another lefty on an already abundant left-handed hitting team, meaning if KJ were to be traded (which i said was very unlikely), then that would open the door to get a left-handed bat like Ibanez.

Oh, and about the Rivera talk. The Angels and their fans love Rivera. His stats aren’t as bad as you say (comparing him to Francoeur is downright brutal). He’s been a solid clutch bat for them all year, he’s got HR pop, hits the ball to all fields, and has turned into a solid veteran hitter.

I don’t like any of the free agent outfielders available. I like Nelson Cruz the most, and since no one commented about that, I’ll assume most of you are open to a Cruz trade idea. Maybe if we still had Devine we could make that work?

By N Nine

September 15, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this

wow Ned Yost fired!

By chuckw/deadjournalist

September 15, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this

I wonder what the odds of Yost returning to the Braves next season as the 3rd base coach/bench coach is?

He’s long been rumored as a possible successor to Bobby Cox.

By Robert S

September 15, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

I think the Brewers fired their manager because they saw the 2007 choke-fest all over again in this team. They simply have withered under pressure the last two years late in the season, and perhaps they feel that not having Yost (and bench coach Ted Simmons, who was reassigned) would have the same effect as when the Mets fired Willie Randolph. Trouble is, there’s only 13 games left to turn it around, and it may be too late. These guys look really uptight on the field, and Dale Sveum now has the responsibility to right a sinking ship, and he’s never managed in the bigs before. Good luck!

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this

nolie

Grow up dude and read my whole post. Speed has no more indication towards OBP than it does on BA.

McFann

You’re right….. it accounts for walks and hit-by-pitches, which shows no indication of speed whatsoever.

By richbrave

September 15, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this

WAYNE:

Yours ofr 2:30 p.m. Let me add a three-cent piece to that discussion. In five, I think it’ll be ANDERSON? Never heard of him. BLANCO who?

SCHAFER and HERNANDEZ are my two picks. Can’t see all four or even three surviving as BRAVES.

By David O'Brien

September 15, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this

If Ned doesn’t get another managerial job, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he’s on Cox’s coaching staff in 2009.

By DAP

September 15, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this

DOB and others yes, i was being sarcastic. no worries, though…its hard to tell when im being sarcastic in real life too! my wife loves it.

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this

Bobby’s, Devine wasn’t exactly a control artist in the minors. Kyle Farnsworth had a more impressive BB rate in the minors. And, again, every time he got a chance in the majors with the Braves he didn’t look good.

Sure, there was a good chance he would become a decent reliever in the majors one day. But the Braves were ready to make a playoff run in ‘08. Everything that you could imagine just went wrong, although Kotsay played quite well.

Also, Devine is a young pitcher, relief pitcher; which means he only throws one or two innings a game and there probably was as good a chance of him getting hurt as there was him succeeding.

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this

Come home Ned indeed!

Ned Yost Braves 2009 bench coach / 2010 Manager.

Thank you Milwaukee.

By Threadkiller

September 15, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this

I hope the Brewers really Tank now!! Firing the manager with a couple of weeks to go? Sheesh!!

By McFann :Ô:

September 15, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this

Guess what…

Grove has hit a two-run homer. That gives him one more RBI than BMac.

Still 10 points behind in AVG, but only one homer behind.

This race is tight…very tight.

Random @ 3:23—

Good going! : )

Bobby’s Cox—

True…

By mbatl

September 15, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this

Astros hitless through 6 innings against TED LILLY. Has a team every been no-hit two games in a row? Has a team every pitched two in a row?

By Wayne

September 15, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this

Random Long time, not talk! Been a little tied up lately.

:-)

Hey, I can be a jerk myself. Apology not necessary, but appreciated.

Ned Yost I have ALWAYS liked Yost, and had earlier thought of him as Bobby’s replacement. Stranger things have happened.

I don’t see TP being the heir apparent in Atlanta. I like the manager from Richmond, and also his pitching coach. I can see a shake-up over the winter.

flange1 Would the Reds take Blanco for Ryan Freel? (said only half jokingly!) There’s your platoon.

By Crap-Wheelie

September 15, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this

Let me get this straight: The Brewers are in contention for the first time in decades, and they fire the manager who got them there. That’s nasty. And it’s not like they have the world’s greatest team. They’ve actually played above their potential. Man, that’s a stunner. I hope to see Ned back in Atlanta. Maybe he can take over for Bobby.

By flange1

September 15, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

It is interesting reading about Ned Yost being fired.

Seems he did not do a great job of handling pressure.

I find it strange that you fire a guy with 12 games left. And also reassigning Ted Simmons????

I guess the Mets can breathe easier about the Wildcard…

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

Stock Market down 493 points today.

ouch.

By Goodoleboy58

September 15, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

TP has got to be Ned’s biggest supporter right now. He doesn’t want Ned back in Atlanta competing for the spot after next year.

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this

Oh, and about the Rivera talk. The Angels and their fans love Rivera. His stats aren’t as bad as you say (comparing him to Francoeur is downright brutal). He’s been a solid clutch bat for them all year, he’s got HR pop, hits the ball to all fields, and has turned into a solid veteran hitter.

Downright brutal? Dude, seriously, I like you but you need to stop all of this constant nonsense. Just go to baseball-reference.com. Look at most similar batter and tell me who is listed as the #1 most similar batter to Rivera. After doing that, go ahead and tell me how brutal what I said is. You shouldn’t even need to do that because I didn’t before I said what I said about the two of them. Simply looking at their stats and watching the two men play should have told you that. But, oh, no, your Bobby’s Cox, and well, I’ll be nice ……….

By Wayne

September 15, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this

I read earlier today that Joe Torre is allowing Manny to play his IPod music through the clubhouse speakers.

I wonder how the other players feel about that, since earlier in the year, there was NO music allowed before games.

By TennesseePaul

September 15, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this

The Devine trade was one of the worst the organization ever made

Wow. That’s an irrational over statement. If you don’t like the trade, that’s one thing. But to proclaim the trade of a minor league reliever for a productive major league center fielder as the worst trade ever seems too much.

By flange1

September 15, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

On the stock market,

Need to send the props out to uga-brave who told us Lehman was going under months ago.

I still can’t believe Merrill will be owned by BofA….

Things are going to get a little rougher before they get better…

uga-brave, got any GOOD news for us?

By hydee

September 15, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this

I know there is alot of Ned Yost love in Atlanta, but in the short time I followed the Brewers (when Julian pitched for them this summer), I was so not impressed with Yost. He continually sent pitchers back out that were clearly gassed, or left them in well past their effective point. Julian’s ERA skyrocketed as a result of twice being sent back out after struggling to get through one inning. Plus comments from Ryan Braun after they played the Sox stating that the team didn’t expect to win doesn’t say a whole lot for the team’s confidence in their manager. They’ve lost like 11 of the last 14, I think management definitely needed to shake something up.

By Random

September 15, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this

Braveheart: “Wouldn’t Blanco’s walk rate decrease if he K’d less? One reason he may be striking out alot is that he works the count, which gets him alot of walks but also often gets him too deep into a count which makes it easier to K him.”

I heard a similar theory put forth about KJ earlier this year in ST, as an argument against KJ leading off.

Rings true to me.

By McFann :Ô:

September 15, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this

Ground out for Grove.

So he was 1-4 with a two-run homer. He now has 22 homers and 83 RBI, and his AVG is .288.

Thank you. My name is McFann, and I will (should) be here all week.

By Steve from OH

September 15, 2008 4:25 PM | Link to this

10Paul:

Yeah, when did trading a middle reliever become a stoning offense? He’s a middle reliever, people. I daresay our franchise can withstand such a blow, not matter how good he may be.

I personally liked the kid, but seriously, he’s a relief pitcher.

By flange1

September 15, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this

Wayne,

I could live with Ryan Freel and Anderson in CF as a platoon…

That is if Carl Crawford was in left!!!

HA!

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this

Should you take Shaun to task for looking at minor league stats while you base your undying love of all things Devine, Nelson Cruz, Josh Anderson and Martin prado upon minor league stats and a small sample size in the majors?

By Shaun

September 15, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this

Bobby’s, OBP also accounts for hits (even infield hits).

Also, I think some people need to realize on-base ability and slugging ability equate to run creating ability. You don’t have on-base or slugging ability, you may as well forget playing everyday in the majors as a position player because no matter how much speed or anything else you have, these are the abilities that equate to run creation.

Regarding the Yost firing, it will be interesting to see how the team responds.

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

Oh, geez, does this mean I’m gonna have to read a month’s full of drunken overnight posts saying BUY GOLD, francoeur sucks, BUY GOLD, gwinnett county all star sucks, BUY GOLD, you did it to yourself golden boy, BUY GOLD, cramer’s an idiot, BUY GOLD, francoeur sucks, francoeur sucks, francoeur sucks, BUY GOLD!

:-)

By Robert S

September 15, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this

For those clamoring for Ned Yost to return to Atlanta to take over after Bobby Cox retires, allow me to throw out a few stats concerning Yost’s Brew Crew this year:

Brewers are hitting .243 w/RISP, 15th out of 16 teams in the NL Brewers are hiting .207 w/RISP and 2 outs, 15th out of 16 teams in the NL Brewers are hitting .192 w/the Bases Loaded, 16th in the NL Brewers are hitting .244 after the 7th inning, 13th out of 16 Brewers are hitting .207 this month, 15th of 16. Brewers are hitting .253 for the year, with five players over 100 strikeouts, and two more over 90. Contrast that with the Braves, who are batting .270 and have only one player with over 100 strikeouts.

You thought the Braves had it bad with Bobby Cox??

Brewers vs. Cubs: 4 wins 6 losses Brewers vs Mets: 2 wins 4 losses Brewers vs Dodgers: 2 wins 4 losses Brewers vs Phillies: 1 win 5 losses Combined against the four playoff teams: 9 wins and 19 losses

This is one man’s opinion, found on FireNedYost.com, so take from it what you will:

“Ned’s entire approach to managing is based on the big play. Pitchers need to get the big strikeout or double play, and batters need to hit the home run. There’s no room for game strategy that does not involve a spectacular result against the odds.”

Just thought I’d throw it out there. There seems to be a lot of sentiment that Yost’s uptight nature rubbed off on his team, hence the horrid offensive stats and the recent pitching meltdowns. Also, there have been numerous complaints at how Yost handled his pitching staff. It was Yost’s job to keep this team loose and prepared, and by all accounts he failed for the second year in a row.

By Brian

September 15, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

What did Zambrano and Lilly do to deserve two good games in a row? One acts like someone who huffed paint as a kid, the other is the biggest pu!!! in MLB!! Man, it’s hard to say which team I’d like to see choke more, Cubs/Muts/Phils! Nah, it’s too much fun watching the Muts choke!!

By Wayne

September 15, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this

flange I asked for that one!!

:-)

How ‘bout Baldelli?? Dude is raking this September.

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this

Ground out for Grove. So he was 1-4 with a two-run homer. He now has 22 homers and 83 RBI, and his AVG is .288.

Dude, what are you talking about? Grove won 300 games and died 33 years ago.

By flange1

September 15, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this

Braveheart,

I guess we should have bought Lehman puts and we should have BOUGHT GOLD, not golden boys but GOLD!!!!

By brewerfaninATL

September 15, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this

I’ll tell you why Ned Yost was fired. Because when the chips are down and the games are the biggest, he fails miserably. Yes, the bullpen isn’t great, but yesterday was the last straw when he left situational lefty Shouse in to face Burrell and then Victorino, and not surprisingly he got hammered…next thing you know we’re down 7-3. That was totally uncalled for! You had to put Mota or Gagne in there for those last two outs.

Not only that, but he NEVER holds his players accountable for their failings. Yes, Ned is a nice guy, and he wants to let the players work themselves out of a slump, but sometimes you have to scold the players and hold them accountable. Especially with a young team like the Brewers. He did nothing last year when we faded out of the race, said they just needed the experience. Fine, no problem! But this year? No excuse, they have been through a race before and now it’s time to produce! You make a statement, sit Braun down for a game or two, same with Prince, or Hart. Not surprisingly, as they are ALL slumping Ned keeps rolling them out there and we keep losing. I’m sorry, but we have way too much talent to be losing series to the Padres and Reds and getting swept handily by the Cubs, Mets, and Phillies. This is all on Ned! No, he doesn’t need to be Lou Piniella or Jim Leyland, but he needs to grow a pair and hold his players accountable. Tony LaRussa wouldn’t let this happen…nor Mike Scioscia, Terry Francona, or even Clint Hurdle for that matter.

Like I say, I like Ned as a person. He’s a former player who has been through a pennant race as a player, he can be charming to the media, he DOES care about his players…but to a fault. The players were beginning to take advantage of his niceness and country club-like atmosphere. But, I want a winner in Milwaukee, it’s a great place when there’s a winner on the field, the fans really do care about them, but dammit, 1982 is too long to go without a playoff team! We need a tough-minded manager who has a passion for PLAYOFF baseball. Ned just didn’t cut it for us! Sorry Ned, I wish you well, but we need a new direction!

Sincerely, a diehard Milwaukee Brewers fan

By McFann :Ô:

September 15, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this

Braveheart—

Grove…He catches for the Cubs…

“Grove” means “Soto” in Spanish.

By Chop Chop

September 15, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this

Braveheart,

The posts we’ll see will probably be more like those Cash4Gold commercials:

“just put your unwanted gold in a bag and send it to ol uga

golden boy you cant sell yourself with that approach at the plate dont put yourself in a bag”

(I wouldn’t mind seeing posts like that.)

By Original Jon

September 15, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this

Hey Robert S Wouldnt the Brewers offensive stats be contributed to the hitting coach?

By ncscoots

September 15, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this

Wayne, I could live with Ryan Freel and Anderson in CF as a platoon… That is if Carl Crawford was in left!!!

You guys are doing that on purpose, aren’t you, LOL?

By flange1

September 15, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this

Wayne,

We could let Rocco play RF….Then get Chone Figgins to …..

Sorry Scoots…

By Bobbymahlon

September 15, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this

I see the Brewers have just fired Yost now its about time the Braves fire Cox. As I have said many times before Franceour has got to level his swing off and stop uppercutting the ball or he will always be a low 200 hitter. Doesn’t Bobby know we need a power hitter in left field, he only mentioned two starting pitchers. Also I think its about time we give Bennett a shot at starting. We also have got to start strecthing out our starters arms or we won’t ever get anymore than five or six innings out of them thus always overworking our bullpen.

By Interested Observer

September 15, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this

brewerfaninATL

From your description it sounds like Atlanta is the perfect place for Ned. We have a long time manager (Ned’s mentor) that also often makes questionable pitching decisions, is a father figure to all the players, never holding players responsible for their failings, instead keeping them in the same order over and over again waiting for them to “work themselves out of it”.

By nolie

September 15, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this

September 15, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this

nolie

Grow up dude and read my whole post. Speed has no more indication towards OBP than it does on BA. BobbysCox

Me grow up? I read your entire post lil’ bubba. You are the one that stated that infield hits would have no impact on a players OBP, which is typical of your very infirm grasp of modern stats which you often show your incomplete grasp of.

I spent a lot of years in professional baseball dude, I’m already grown up, my post to you was not that offensive and you are and idiot if you continue to claim that infield hits don’t affect OBP.any kind of hit influences BA which is part of OBP. I can’t imagine how even you could state something like that, and I was far from the only poster that took you to task.

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this

Grove…He catches for the Cubs

Grove threw for the A’s and Red Sox and retired in 1941.

By Wayne

September 15, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this

Guys: Who are going to be the Figgins/Freel/Crawford/Baldelli of the winter of 2008/09???

Juan Rivera? Roy Halladay? Magglio Ordonez?

Was reading earlier that someone was speculating the Braves would make a play for Holliday. I hope we don’t go down that “one year Scott Boras rental” road this winter.

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this

Can anyone reconcile the two statements below about Yost justifying the firing? Was he too tighta@@ed or too lax?

There seems to be a lot of sentiment that Yost’s uptight nature rubbed off on his team, hence the horrid offensive stats and the recent pitching meltdowns,,,,,,, It was Yost’s job to keep this team loose and prepared, and by all accounts he failed for the second year in a row.

Not only that, but he NEVER holds his players accountable for their failings. Yes, Ned is a nice guy, and he wants to let the players work themselves out of a slump, but sometimes you have to scold the players and hold them accountable. Especially with a young team like the Brewers. He did nothing last year when we faded out of the race

Oh, the inconsistency of fandom!

By TennesseePaul

September 15, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this

Wayne: I hope we don’t go down that “one year Scott Boras rental” road this winter

Isn’t that the truth.

By nolie

September 15, 2008 5:37 PM | Link to this

Oh, the inconsistency of fandom!Braveheart

yup. we tend to believe what we are already predisposed to believe

By Robert S

September 15, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this

Original Jon, hitting coach or not, the failure of a team to perform offensively in pressure situations is, in my mind, a reflection of the manager’s style. Some managers preach patience and discipline and have succeeded (Joe Torre and Tony LaRussa come to mind), while others play for the three run homer and have a “swing at everything” approach (and don’t succeed), and the enormous strikeout totals the Brewers have demonstrate this.

There have been numerous complaints about the Brew Crew’s undisciplined approach to hitting, and to me, that falls on the manager. The batting coach can teach the finer points of technique, but technique only works when you have a game plan and a sound approach at the plate, which the Brewers obviously didn’t have. The technical stuff is for the hitting coach, and the approach and game plan at the plate falls on the manager. That’s how I see it, anyway.

By McFann :Ô:

September 15, 2008 5:44 PM | Link to this

Braveheart—

You didn’t finish reading my post. I said, “‘Grove’ means ‘Soto’ in Spanish.”

I just call Soto “Grove”…I don’t know why exactly. I just happened to find out that “Soto” is Spanish for “Grove”. Just type “soto” into a Spanish-to-English thingy. (If you type “grove” into an English-to-Spanish, it gives you the Spanish word for “woods”: arboleda—or at least that’s what ours does.)

There’s really nothing to it…just a nickname.

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this

Braveheart,

you can look at all of those players minor league stats, and they are solid.

You can look at all of their current major league stats, and most, besides Anderson’s this year, thus far, are solid.

Dude, minor league numbers may or may not show any indication of what a player can do at the major league level. Some guys hit better at the major league level (brighter balls, bigger back-drops, pitchers are around the plate more, as per Wade Boggs). Some don’t translate. It’s frivolous for Shaun to put so much emphasis on minor league stats, but if he’s going to, then actually look at them in Devine’s case.

Cruz has always had good minor league stats, but in 500 major league at-bats as Shaun pointed out, he’s struggled. This year/next year could be different. He’s older for one, and he walks more. I posted an article here with expert analyst opinion saying why he thinks Cruz has turned the corner. Some players mature. Some may mature, but they are such a mess at the plate (francoeur), it looks unlikely. Texas may want to keep him, I don’t know. I’m just throwing it out there.

Go ahead at nit-pick all day about frivolous arguments and my opinions about certain players. My stance is the same on all of them. But I will not let our stat boy, of all people, throw out misinformation without looking at the thing he does best, stats!

The braves had 2 solid young kids that could easily hit higher than AJ’s .222 and be a spark at the top of the order, while Shaffer got more seasoning, yet they traded Devine. They turned a good trade (anderson for villareal) and flipped it with a bad one. Didn’t make sense. Pitching wins games…where is the bullpen today? Where would it be with Devine? Giving up on a #1 after 2 years ( he was drafted in ‘05, traded in ‘07 for a 4 month rental)? Are you kidding me?

Prado thus far has spoken for himself. Never got a fair shake, but it took a leave of absence by a 1st baseman, a position he never played, to finally show what kind of hitter he could be. Chipper Jones will back that up.

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

You didn’t finish reading my post. I said, “‘Grove’ means ‘Soto’ in Spanish.”

McFann, No, I read it. It’s cool that you know that Soto means Grove but it is much more important that you know who Lefty Grove is ………… Soto will be forgotten a decade from now. Lefty Grove will be remembered forever….. or he should be …… he has the highest career winning % of any 300 game winner and had the highest career ERA+ before mariano and pedro came along

By Steve from OH

September 15, 2008 6:02 PM | Link to this

Josh Anderson’s career line in the minors: .294/.340/.378 for a .718 OPS. That is not “solid.” If Blanco isn’t good enough for you, than Anderson certainly isn’t.

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 6:07 PM | Link to this

Shaun, nolie

Again, read my whole post, won’t ya?

Since you’re too lazy to do so, I’ll repost it for you. Here’s what I originally said…..

OBP would increase, but so would BA. So, the difference between BA and OBP (how often a player gets on besides a hit) would be a wash

I don’t see anyone’s connection on how speed shows up in OBP since it would show up in BA as well. Might as well say speed shows up in BA

If you think staying out of DP’s (speed) increases OBP, you’re wrong. Fielder’s choices and reached-on-errors don’t count for OBP either

I guess i have to be more precise in my syntax for you guys to comprehend. If you can’t understand what I meant, then i guess i’m wasting my time.

You can’t possibly tell how a guy’s speed affects the rate he gets on base by looking at OBP, any more than you can tell by looking at his BA.

Why don’t you redirect all of your stupendous remarks towards me and point them at the person that says you can.

By MGL

September 15, 2008 6:07 PM | Link to this

Anyone noticed Reid Gorecki? 27 Year old, signed as Minor Free Agent in May. Once a rising star in the Cardinal’s org, but had injury issues. Right Handed bat, hits for avg and power and can hit LHP. Stats - http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Reid%20Gorecki&pos=&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=434698

By proeye

September 15, 2008 6:11 PM | Link to this

Changing the subject somewhat… Hopefully DOB is still out there…

I think Kotchman is a reincarnation of Sean Casey. I bet he will get his 20-25 homers but he may only do it for a couple of seasons.

So far what has he done? He’s been in the majors for 5 years and hasn’t shown any signs of power yet. He has 31 homers in 1242 at bats. Sure he’s only 25 and he’s just starting out, but he never hit for power in the minors either. In 1241 ABs he only hit 34 homers. Wait, sounds like what he’s done so far in the majors too!

Okay, I suppose 1240 ABs is about two full seasons with 620 ABs and 15-17 homeruns and that’s not all that bad.

I still stand by what I said and I think he’ll have maybe two good homerun seasons and then we’ll see a lot of singles and .300 averages.

Boy, he’s sure had some really high BAs in the minors though. .350 at Rancho Cucamonga (who came up with this name???), .368 at Arkansas, and .372 in SLC. Guess I’d take high BAs like this even without the homeruns.

Does he normally uppercut the ball? I swear in the game I saw the other day (I haven’t been watching the Bravos much since I’m sick of losing), he was really upcutting. Maybe he’s trying to make amends for the few doubles and homers lately?

Anyway… Hopefully 2009 will be a break out year for Kotchman. My God, something has got to turn into a positive. In the 33 years I’ve been watching baseball I don’t think I’ve ever seen a team that has been so ridiculously snake bit! I mean, I actually picked them, realistically so I might add (!), to win the division and actually have a chance at the WS. I think a lot of fans were too and that’s why we are so incredibly disappointed this year. Okay, I’ve already said this three times already…. ;-)

By Richie

September 15, 2008 6:14 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH

Please remember Josh has only had 89 AB’s with us and only 156 AB’s in his brief MLB career. Blanco has tripled that this season alone, and didnt really make himself stand out because if he did then we wouldnt be looking at giving Anderson a real shot in CF next year, would we? I mean come on. Besides, minor league OBP and OPS aren’t the determining factors for how a player will do in the major leagues. There plenty of players who minor league OBP and OPS were lower in the minors than in the majors but they still turned some nice careers. I, mean hey, this applies to Schafer as well. Besides, I think we should wait a year for Schafer anyway. If we bring him along a la Jacoby Ellsbury, that would be in better.

Wayne

I can’t believe you are attempting to say Grady Sizemore is better than Ichiro Suzuki. This is Ichiro 7th season in the MLB, and has 1787 hits. In 4 full seasons, Grady has 705 hits(739 total- played 43 games in 2004). The man is going to have 2000 hits, next season. Grady wouldnt even be at 1000 hits at the end of next season. He would only be on the cusp of 1000 hits. I am not even going to attempt to fathom that statement you made. Ichiro in 8 seasons also only has 518 K’s(77 was his high last season). The only knock in his game is he doesnt walk( much but when you had 238/77 hit to K ratio, not walking much is no big thing.

By NO MORE BOBBY

September 15, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this

Ned Yost FIRED!!!! I like a team with some backbone in the front office but fire him now? Yikes!

*Ned for sure came up under Bobby Cox. Notice how his Brewers teams always faded at the end of summer? Sounds like someone we know. *

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this

Go ahead at nit-pick all day about frivolous arguments

There’s no such thing as nitpicking. The devil is always in the details. If there are untruths about the little things, dare we imagine the veracity of the big things?

The braves had 2 solid young kids that could easily hit higher than AJ’s .222 and be a spark at the top of the order,

Andruw Jones had a .724 ops last season. Blanco and Josh have wasted 350 plate appearances at the critical leadoff spot with a .680 ops. With that woeful output at leadoff, I’d say that the Anderson/Blanco duo can’t light a damn candle. Kotsay was needed. So they rid of themselves of a burned out headcase of a reliever (who also had funky mechanics that lead many to believe he is an injury risk).

By McFann :Ô:

September 15, 2008 6:31 PM | Link to this

Braveheart—

OK…Sweet numbers!

I mean do disrespect to Lefty. Mind if I keep calling Soto “Grove”? At least for the rest of the year…

Maybe I should call him “John Grove”, just for distinction.

By McFann :Ô:

September 15, 2008 6:36 PM | Link to this

proeye In the 33 years I’ve been watching baseball I don’t think I’ve ever seen a team that has been so ridiculously snake bit!

Ironic, because half our team is afraid of snakes.

By Chop Chop

September 15, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this

“…a burned out headcase of a reliever…”

Braveheart,

That’s damn harsh.

Maybe DOB can text Billy Beane to find out if he agrees with your assessment of Joey Devine.

(I just hope Billy Beane likes to type stuff like “LMAO” and “ROFLMAO”…)

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 6:55 PM | Link to this

Steve

You’re leaving out an important line: Stolen bases, and stolen base success rate. Those numbers are solid. When he hits a single, it’s almost like hitting a double. Also, his numbers last year in September were “solid”, and deserved another look. His numbers in Richmond this year were solid.

First of all, don’t spew off a guys career minor league stats. Guys progress through the minor leagues. What they do in their last year, should be better than what they did in their first. Anderson’s .314/.358/.405 line in AAA this year with 42 SB and a 86% SB rate, is solid and more meaningful that what he did in 2003.

If you want to use career numbers, then please, acknowledge Anderson had 280 SB in 6 minor league seasons. He’s had 40 or more SB since 2004 in the minors, including 76 in 2004.

That’s quite substantial and since it is, you can almost add his SB to his TB then divide by AB (SLG formula). That increases his career minor league SLG from .378 to .472 and his OPS to .812. (1122 TB + 280 SB / 2967 AB).

By N Nine

September 15, 2008 7:00 PM | Link to this

The Dodgers put Andruw Jones on the 60-day disabled list to make room on the 40-man roster for Takashi Saito on Saturday, marking the end of Jones’ miserable first season in Los Angeles. Saito was activated from the 60-day disabled list. In a season that the former major league home run champion has called the most challenging of his 13-year career, Jones hit .158 with three home runs and 14 runs batted in in 75 games. Asked if he regretted signing Jones to a two-year, $36.2-million contract, General Manager Ned Colletti replied, “I’ll let you know in a year.” Jones, who went on the disabled list for the third time, will spend the remainder of the season rehabilitating his surgically repaired right knee, which is sore again, and plans to play winter ball in the Dominican Republic. Asked if Jones could be the player he used to be, Colletti replied, “A lot of it’s going to depend on what he wants to do. It’s all up to him. It’s not up to anybody else but him. It’s never been up to anybody else but him.” So did Colletti think Jones didn’t prepare himself properly for this season? “I think we’ve all seen what we’ve seen,” he said. Jones reported to spring training weighing more than 240 pounds. Los Angeles Times

Lets just put it this way Colletti hasn’t helped himself with that Andruw signing

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 7:04 PM | Link to this

Andruw Jones had a .724 ops last season. Blanco and Josh have wasted 350 plate appearances at the critical leadoff spot with a .680 ops

Braveheart,

nice discussion as always. OPS, as we all know, is slg + OBP. Look at my last post about adding SB to TB, then deriving a new SLG and OPS numbers. In Anderson’s case, that surpasses AJ’s production from last year. It raises his OPS to .782, and his SLG to .449.

This comes at the top of the order, not in 4-slot as well. Look at KJ’s numbers since he’s been hitting behind Anderson. Chipper has also been hitting well lately. I hope you’re not underestimating speed at the top of the order.

By Braveheart

September 15, 2008 7:05 PM | Link to this

That’s damn harsh. Maybe DOB can text Billy Beane to find out if he agrees with your assessment of Joey Devine.

Chop Chop Devine was a burned out headcase of a reliever while here and he always would be while here. He needed a change of scenery and was damaged goods if he stayed here. All the bellyaching hindsight in the world ain’t gonna change how much he himself ruined his value between the lines and on the trade market while here

It’s great that Grand Slam Devine has been able to reinvent himself elsewhere where they don’t know him that way ……… but he was always gonna be Grand Slam Devine here and he knew it all too well and let it affect him.

I mean do disrespect to Lefty. Mind if I keep calling Soto “Grove”? At least for the rest of the year

Go ahead! :-) Just having some fun with ya -even though reading it over again now I came off like a real tool

By Bobby's Cox

September 15, 2008 7:20 PM | Link to this

I don’t think that’s the case about devine braveheart.

I call that giving up on a young player. Eventually talent and skill take over.

Now you’re doing what i do, and insisting that stats aren’t everything. There’s really no way to argue with that. It’s your opinion, and I respect it, and hope you and everyone else do the same.

Grand Slam Devine was Cox’s doing. Bringing him in for that 2nd inning in his debut with zero sleep the night before was asking too much. The kid, fresh out of college, pitched one heck of a 1st inning that day. Bobby should’ve let him build off that.

Everyone have a good night.

By McFann :Ô:

September 15, 2008 7:31 PM | Link to this

Braveheart—

Thanks! : )

I was havin’ some fun back at ya. You weren’t a tool—it was funny.

By Steve from OH

September 15, 2008 7:33 PM | Link to this

Bobby’s, that was a nice post at 6:55. But if you’re going to add stolen bases to SLG, you’re also going to have to subract caught stealings from OBP. I get your point about minor league stats. If you want to disregard numbers posted in the GCL or Rookie ball, that’s cool with me because numbers posted during a player’s transition to professional ball may not be indicative of his overall abilities. When I’m looking at a guy’s minor league stats, I tend to look at A+/AA/AAA numbers more than rookie league numbes, although posting career stats makes it a lot easier on me (no calculation involved, lol).

With that being said, I would like to point out that for young players like Josh, minor league numbers are the lone piece of information we have to go on to approximate their play in the bigs. Sure, a player may improve on his minor league play, but (at least to me) much of that has to do with his level of physical maturity. Take McCann, for instance. He was called up when he was 22, and considerably outperformed his minor league numbers. However, most of his minor league games were being played when he was 18,19,20 years old, i.e. not quite a full-grown man, catch my drift? By the time he had reached the bigs, he had matured physically to the point that his raw skill could now compete with those physically more mature than him. Anderson is 25(?), so I’d say he doesn’t have much more growing to do (if he does, he may want to see some sort of doctor/medicine man/shaman). What you see is what you’re going to get, IMO. But the front office has a much better grasp on an individual prospect’s level of maturity than the average fan, IMO.

I really think that over the course of a full season we’ll see greater production out of Jordan Schafer, if FW and the gang deem him to be ready.

Richie:

Please see the above regarding minor league stats. I don’t have a problem with Anderson in center next season if the front office decides Schafer needs more seasoning, as long as we acquire a power-hitting corner OF’er to offset that difference.

As for Ichiro/Sizemore, I would take Sizemore right now. No question. Better SLG, better OBP, younger, cheaper, etc.

Strikeouts, by and large, are irrelevant. Have you been paying attention to our discussion this fine afternoon? I posted a nice piece about K’s. Also, not walking (i.e. making more outs) is a knock on someone’s game, whether they strikeout a lot or not. Unless, of course, they have great SLG’s, which Ichiro does not.

Not that I think Ichiro is a bad player (I’d take him on the Braves), but for the purposes of our discussion….

By Steve from OH

September 15, 2008 7:41 PM | Link to this

Also, Bobby’s Cox, there is a statistic that takes into account OBP, SLG, SB and CS: EqA.

Josh Anderson’s 2008 EqA? .260, or exactly major league average.

Gregor Blanco? Also exactly .260.

Seems like the stolen bases/speed really aren’t accounting for that much for ‘ol Josh. I daresay Schafer could be better than league average next season. He’s also an excellent defender, from what the scouting reports say.

EqA also correlates much more closely with runs scored that OBP, SLG, or OPS, fwiw.

By Chop Chop

September 15, 2008 7:43 PM | Link to this

Braveheart,

It’s nice of you to call him “Grand Slam” Devine (very classy). You are right to point out that your “burned out headcase of a reliever” comment is based on his performance in Atlanta, but to intimate that he basically did it to himself is a crock of bull. The kid didn’t choose to be called up in 2005. He didn’t choose to be put in situations that no kid should ever be exposed to after less than half a season as a pro. That one’s on the Bravos. The Braves’ front office and Bobby Cox absolutely f*** that up.

(I believe in personal accountability, but Devine was a greenhorn who had no business being put in those situations.)

Anyway, I’m glad to see Devine doing well in Oakland. He’s a prime example of how not to handle a young player’s career. The fact that he’s weathered the storm and found some success (oooooh, small sample size…kinda like Jair Jurrjens and every other kid who hasn’t put in much service time) is a testament to the ability the Braves saw in him when he was picked in the first round. They just didn’t have the common sense to allow him to hone his skills.

Morons.

By flange1

September 15, 2008 7:54 PM | Link to this

Braveheart,

Totally agree with you on Devine. I WISH the guy well, but he needed to be in a different city.

This argument reminds me Betimet stuff all over again.

Anyone notice how much Coach is posting on Bradley’s blog?

Kind of funny if you ask me!

By Wayne

September 15, 2008 7:55 PM | Link to this

Steve I think you might have confused me with somebody else in your 6:14 pm post. I can’t recall comparing Sizemore and Ichiro. I mentioned that our boys Blanco and Anderson are more like Taveras than Ichiro. Might have been somebody else….

I like both Sizemore and Suzuki. Sizemore better now, purely due to his age advantage. Suzuki is the better hitter for sure.

By northbeach Scott

September 15, 2008 7:58 PM | Link to this

I believe Bravehart has the most accurate assessment of Devine. He would NEVER have received the chance to pitch that he needed with the Braves. He had worn out his welcome. No matter what Devine did, it was not going to happen for him here.

Not entirely his fault, as he was used poorly and he was clearly unprepared to step into key pressure packed roles.

I still like the Kotsay trade. He brought professionalism and skill to a team that needed it. While he missed some time with injury, that was minor compared to the total injury collapse of the team.

Devine was effectively nothing but trade bait and needed a fresh start. Happy for him to have had some success this year. Hooray. For those Monday Morning quarterbacks and lamenters, talk to us in 5 years if Devine has sustained success.

I am looking forward to Peter Moylan rejoining the team in 2009. He is a difference maker with a good head on his shoulders. Aussie, Aussie, Aussie. Oy, Oy, Oy!

By Deep Throat

September 15, 2008 8:01 PM | Link to this

The arguing is moot. Francoeur, Blanco and Anderson….none are really viable everyday players. None can even put up an OPS of .700 in a full season this year.

Stolen bases simply are not that valuable. I remember reading an article from BaseballProspectus a year or so ago that talked about how overrated they are. They used Rickey Henderson as their exaxple….and talked about how in one season he stole 80-something stolen bases that created his like 18 extra runs….and how his caught stealings that same year cost the team like 11 runs. So in an 80-something season, Henderson was only able to create like seven (7) extra runs for his team over the whole season.

By Deep Throat

September 15, 2008 8:01 PM | Link to this

The arguing is moot. Francoeur, Blanco and Anderson….none are really viable everyday players. None can even put up an OPS of .700 in a full season this year.

Stolen bases simply are not that valuable. I remember reading an article from BaseballProspectus a year or so ago that talked about how overrated they are. They used Rickey Henderson as their exaxple….and talked about how in one season he stole 80-something stolen bases that created his like 18 extra runs….and how his caught stealings that same year cost the team like 11 runs. So in an 80-something stolen base season, Henderson was only able to create like seven (7) extra runs for his team over the whole season.

By Wayne

September 15, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this

A comment or two on Devine. We will never really know what it was about Devine that caused Bobby to not use him, after such a stellar year in the minors in 2007. Did he rub him the wrong way? Who knows.

It is a fact that the young man was thrown into the fire, and didn’t handle it. Some do, some don’t. This is why clubs are careful with their youngsters, but sometimes the situation dicates giving the kids a try.

BC hasn’t ruined many players over the years, that went on to be great somewhere else. They have traded away some youthful pitchers that ended up doint well elsewhere, but ruined??? Not sure if there are any others to speak of, so I would cut them some slack on Devine.

Gave him his shot, it didn’t work out.

Personally, I would have loved to have kept him, but I am not the GM. The A’s were not going to be taken again by the Braves for Kotsay, as they were for Hudson a few years ago.

By ncscoots

September 15, 2008 8:08 PM | Link to this

Giving up on a #1 after 2 years…Are you kidding me?

Kinda like some here with Kelly Johnson, who is a former first-rounder with a couple of years experience (about 350 games total)?

Just messin’ with ya, Bobby’s.

By richbrave

September 15, 2008 8:11 PM | Link to this

WAYNE:

Once again, I am with you. BRUNDIDGE and HANSON are fine management material as I have stated here on several occasions. BRUNDIDGE was awarded BEST MINOR LEAGUE MANAGER AWARD for 2008 (or somesuch as posted by DOB).

TP and McDOWELL are probably on the outside looking in as they have presided over a retrograde in BRAVES fortunes. Rightly or wrongly, appearances are everything with this and all sports organizations.

It is likely that when COX leaves an entirely new regime will supplant him - unless of course, there’s a trememdous rebound before BOBBY leaves. I do not necesarily envision a manager and coaches from outside the organization, but rather change for appearance’s sake.

In the case of dramatic improvement prior to COX’s retirement, it would most fortuitous for both the incumbent coaches. I don’t think one year will do it. BC will have to stay longer unless the two lights-out starters and a big bopper bat are rented PDQ this off-season.

By Big Cat

September 15, 2008 8:17 PM | Link to this

Love to eat them mousies,

Mousies what I love to eat!

Bite they little heads off,

Nibble on they tiny feet!

By richbrave

September 15, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this

CHOP CHOP:

You are spot on re: the young JOEY. And the BRAVES OWED him afterward. I suppose a trade was best for him after all. His thinking toward the organization couldn’t have been good at that point. I hope he becomes a great closer, provided he doesn’t ultimately end up in the NL EAST for some other team, of course.

By TommyP

September 15, 2008 8:21 PM | Link to this

Can’t remember when I posted it but a few months ago I recounted a story of a Brewers player that said Yost is too tight, can’t stand the pressure. (he told a good friend of mine this)

I guess it became incredibly obvious with his firing.

By Big Cat

September 15, 2008 8:21 PM | Link to this

richbrave 100% agreed. I can’t see anybody currently on the coaching staff that should/would be given the job in 2010. Maybe Brundidge will be the man. I could see him bringing along his pitching coach.

How about that dude down in Mississippi, in case we need some comic relief!

By ncscoots

September 15, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this

So in an 80-something season, Henderson was only able to create like seven (7) extra runs for his team over the whole season.

But someone here will surely opine that just the THREAT of the steal created, oh, ninety-eleven runs all by its own self. I wonder what the 2-hole hitter batted that year? Seeing all those good pitches, and so forth. Shoulda hit about .360 in an 80-steal season, no?

No one on this blog “underestimates” speed. Some have a realistic notion of the offensive effectiveness of the skill, and that may be misconstrued by others who have a little higher opinion of it.

By richbrave

September 15, 2008 8:36 PM | Link to this

BIG CAT:

No base is safe.!!!!

By Steve from OH

September 15, 2008 8:48 PM | Link to this

No one on this blog “underestimates” speed. Some have a realistic notion of the offensive effectiveness of the skill, and that may be misconstrued by others who have a little higher opinion of it.

Exactly. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

By ncscoots

September 15, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this

Brewers player that said Yost is too tight, can’t stand the pressure. (he told a good friend of mine this) I guess it became incredibly obvious with his firing.

I don’t know what transpired in the clubhouse, obviously, but what’s “incredibly obvious” to me is that Yost was saddled with a relatively young (hence, inconsistent) club.

I feel sometimes I quit on Ned a little bit by not allowing him to do it for the last two weeks. - Doug Melvin

Join the club, Doug, there appear to be more than a few in the clubhouse doing the same. If Yost is to be blamed for this September meltdown, does he get the credit for a 20-7 August before that? Or could it be the players, inexperienced in pennant races, who swallowed the apple?

Yost is an excellent baseball man, that I know. How he handled his clubhouse, I don’t know. But no amount of motivation, leadership, or mentoring can save a guy, in the box or on the mound, if that player isn’t ready to be saved.

By fastasballs

September 15, 2008 9:00 PM | Link to this

Nat up on the Muts 4-1 in the 7th.

By cooper

September 15, 2008 9:09 PM | Link to this

Yost is a younger and potentially grumpier version of Cox.

He is a hot head and a let them play manager waiting on the 3run bomb or the complete game shut out.

That works when you have the 1999 Yankees or the 95 Braves but not on a imperfect ball clubs.

I would prefer Fredi or Acta over Yost.

By jed

September 15, 2008 9:17 PM | Link to this

firing ned yost has got to be the single dumbest move i’ve heard of in a long, long time.

By Jake

September 15, 2008 9:27 PM | Link to this

The Mets bullpen continues to not get the job done. They are losing 7-1 to the Nats in the 8th.

By MiamiBeachBravesFan

September 15, 2008 9:35 PM | Link to this

I know this may be too personal and out of line, but it’s done with good intentions.

A week or so ago, I read an article in which Charlie Morton was shut down for the rest of the season. The skinny was exactly that - he dropped 20 pounds since Spring Training and complained of pain in his rib/chest area.

For those of us with a little medical knowledge, those are some pretty bad symptoms - and I will not even venture at a dark speculation in this forum.

Fact is, we all hope that it is something relatively simple and performance related, not anything greater and quality-of-life-threatening. Any thoughts on this, DOB? It seems like this story was brushed under the plate for a person who showed several flashes of promise this season.

By Wayne

September 15, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this

Lots of negative waves here about Ned Yost.

DOB We seek the truth??? What nuggets of wisdom do you have on NY?

By nolie

September 15, 2008 9:41 PM | Link to this

BobbysCox

I read your entire post,and certainly some of it was correct, but I responded to one part of it that was entirely incorrect. The direct quote from you was Infield hits would NOT show up in OBP.. You even capitalized the NOT! No matter what the rest of your post said, that statement is NOT TRUE, and I pointed it out. All your bluster will not change the fact of what you said. If you meant something different then you should have said it correctly, because though I am an exceptional human being with an incredibly high IO…I am not a mind reader, nor I’m guessing are any of the others who commented on your statement.

By Steve from OH

September 15, 2008 9:47 PM | Link to this

Whether or not Yost was doing a bad job, or whatever, firing him with two weeks left in the season doesn’t seem like a good move. Unless he’s creating a really awful clubhouse atmosphere, in which case, why wasn’t he fired earlier?

By Brian

September 15, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this

Where’s the Mut people? Poor people! LET THE CHOKING CONTINUE!!!! HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!

By Tomas

September 15, 2008 10:06 PM | Link to this

Poor Ned Yost. They’re blaming him for making the brewers into a contender. Reality is there pitching sucks. Apart of course from CC, and Sheets. Dave Bush, Jeff Suppan, and Manny Parra are not enough in my opinion, and CC, and Sheets only pitch once every five days. But there bulpen is horrible. Gagne has been mediocre, but that was predicible, after an awful second half last year with Boston. Torres, and Shouse have been there only effective relievers, and Yost has done a good job this year not overusing the bulpen to be able to use them in september, which was the problem last year. From F to A i’d give them a C in there pitching which has CC, and sheets in there. There hitting is great but incosistent, that isn’t Ned’s fault. He has four players with 14 steals or more, the Braves have none. There defense is OK a little average.

If you look at the phillies, they have the best bulpen in the nl, have 4 steady starters in a hitters park, steal a lot of bases, have average defense, but have tremendous hitting. The phillies, and the Cubs have the best teams in the NL, and maybe the Dodgers since getting Manny have gotten into the mix.

The wild card is a mistery, it’ll be between the Mets, and the Brewers in my opinion.

And in the AL, I think Boston wins the East, and Tampa wins the wild card.

By Lou Vales

September 15, 2008 10:31 PM | Link to this

Dear David, 9/15/08, a date that may live in infamy as the precursor to a catastrophic meltdown of the financial system as currently known—not really an exaggeration—and we are still blogging about the Braves and Shea.

As I said to my lovely wife of 32 years on my 61st birthday “Lenin had it all wrong. Religion isn’t the opiate of the masses. It is sports. Pro sports, but ESPECIALLY college football in the South that distracts and dulls the senses to the realities that truly mean something in our lives”.

However, good writing.

By bravos2249

September 15, 2008 10:47 PM | Link to this

Blanco has 11K AND 11 BB in the first.

Anderson has 2K and 2BB.

That’s about the same style.

In the 1st inning Blanco has 1 SB…Anderson 2.

Besides that homer, Anderson only has 1 XBH in the leadoff spot. Which means he should have more stolen bases.

His avg. is .333 BUT he only has 4 hits in the 1st…and he’s leadoff for about 2 weeks is it?

And it’s kinda too early to compare Anderson’s numbers in this regard BUT..

Blanco is hitting:

.309 w/ RISP

.312 w/ men on

.317 w/ runner on 1st

.364 w/ runner on 3rd

.467 w/ runner on 1st and 3rd

.471 w/ runner on 3rd less than 2 outs

only ones w a slight reasonable comparison are

Anderson hitting:

.200 w/ RISP

.270 w/ men on

not a lot of ab’s….but for people to say Blanco’s a washout and not even in the starting picture for next season are CRAZY!

By bravos2249

September 15, 2008 10:50 PM | Link to this

Also among the team leaders w/ RISP ….

Omar,Prado,Kelly,Blanco……

but we all know Kelly is Mr. Inconsistent

By N Nine

September 15, 2008 11:03 PM | Link to this

The free fallin Muts lost real ugly against the worst team in MLB. V2.0 in full stride. There are lucky Brew Crew has endured tough times also.

By brian

September 15, 2008 11:29 PM | Link to this

I would love to see Ned Yost as part of the Braves coaching staff next year. Milwaukee was insane for firing him.

By Greg in TN

September 15, 2008 11:47 PM | Link to this

Evening Planet Braves…

There’s panic in the stock market, there’s panic in gas prices (at least in the southeast), and Doug Melvin hit the panic button today when he handed Ned Yost his walking papers after losing 11 of 14 and seeing a 5 1/2 game lead in the wild card evaporate.

I couldn’t remember it ever happening before, and the story I read on ESPN (link) confirms that no team has ever fired a manager after July while they were still in the hunt for the playoffs, which makes the timing of this move all that more perplexing.

It’s a gamble to be sure, one Doug Melvin isn’t even sure will work according to a quote attributed to him in the article. I think the chance of this move backfiring is greater than the chance for any turnaround with 12 games left in the Brewers season. And it doesn’t get any easier with the Cubs on tap at their regular home field of Wrigley, a team the Brewers are two games under .500 against this season.

I’m not sure if Ned finds his way back to Atlanta, or if he’ll have another managerial chance in 2009. Either way, I wish him the best.

By David O'Brien

September 15, 2008 11:48 PM | Link to this

My 401K is taking a beating, but good to see the Coen Brothers are still making fine movies! Saw “Burn After Reading” tonight. Loved it. Not at the very top of their ridiculously good catalog — not Big Lebowski, No Country for Old Men, Raising Arizona, Fargo, Blood Simple, Miller’s Crossing, O Brother, Barton Fink — but nonetheless very, very good. Maybe up there with The Man Who Wasn’t There or The Hudsucker Proxy. Better than Intolerable Cruelty, for sure. Actually, I’d probably put Barton Fink in their elite group.

Anyway, very good movie. See Burn After Reading if you haven’t already (and judging by the money it made over the weekend, plenty of folks saw it)

By David O'Brien

September 15, 2008 11:56 PM | Link to this

Wayne, the criticism of Ned is that his teams play extremely tight in crunch time, that he isn’t able to get them to relax, but instead they tend to take cues from his wound-up demeanor under pressure. That’s what the word has been for some time, at least. Don’t know if it’s fair or accurate, just know that’s the chatter….

MiamiBch: Nothing was “swept under the plate” and it wasn’t anything to do with his chest. He’s had soreness in the scapula in back of his shoulder, and there was some talk that perhaps it was rubbing against an area near or on the ribcage. Braves believe a strengthening program this winter should alleviate the problem. You’re talking about him like he has some disease than caused him to lose weight. Try to be a bit more accurate, OK? Not chest. Scapula, the shoulder blade.

By Neil Cavuto

September 16, 2008 12:27 AM | Link to this

**Lou Vales,

Maybe a business blog gives a rat’s a* about your stock market, this is a baseball blog.**

By Wayne

September 16, 2008 12:30 AM | Link to this

Thanks!

By Mike S

September 16, 2008 1:11 AM | Link to this

Glad to hear Burn after Reading got the DOB seal of approval. Your movie tastes are normally very close to mine. Will hopefully get to see it sometime soon.

Surprised you didn’t like Intolerable Cruelty though (although I know it didn’t get the best reviews). I thought it was fantastic, another in the long line of great Coen Brother’s dark comedies in my mind. (like when the big guy shoots himself near the end. Only the Coen brothers could make a scene when a guy shoots himself in the head hilarious!)

Also, I know you asked about it before, but not sure if anyone responded. I’m listening to the new Metallica CD “Death Magnetic” now. I think it’s great. Not a total throwback to old school stuff like some have said, but more of a cross between St. Anger and the old stuff in my mind. Almost all the tracks are 7-8 minutes long and several follow more of the formats of the old stuff (slow melodic beginnings, lots of solos), but still have that newer St. Anger sound (mostly which you can hear in Lars’ drums) and more bass. While I don’t like that sound as much as the old stuff, I did still love St. Anger, so take of that what you will.

The first single “The Day that Never Comes” is definitely my favorite so far. At first listen I was just okay with it because the chorus/beginning isn’t anything special, but the last 4 minutes or so are ridiculous. Great guitar work with tons of layered riffs and solos that is just classic Metallica in its uniqueness and power.

Overall, i’d definitely recommend Death Magnetic, but again that’s coming from a BIG Metallica fan… The vocals/lyrics are nothing to write home about, but the guitar/bass/drums are still incredible, and isn’t that really what made Metallica so great anyways?

By Bobby's Cox

September 16, 2008 1:12 AM | Link to this

I believe Braveheart has the most accurate assessment of Devine. He would NEVER have received the chance to pitch that he needed with the Braves.

He never would have received the chance to pitch?

You’re kidding me right? You mean that he’d be benched in favor of Jorge Julio, Blaine Boyer, Acosta, Dessens, Tavares, Buddy. etc… right now, with this crop of nobody relievers?

Dude…..

Braveheart is right that Devine’s head was in the wrong place here, if he meant to start. But he got more experience @ Mississippi and Richmond last year….the experience to finally trust his stuff against pros instead of fighting injuries and fatigue against major league hitters like he was in 2005.

This year would have been the perfect opportunity to let him build off that minor league experience and get more major league experience. Oakland’s been moving him along slowly, and the braves should have this year

The Braves have always moved youngsters along slowly and they failed to do it with Devine. They gave up. They never let him build on his experience and gain confidence at the Major League level. It was a bad trade.

10Paul

I said it was one of the worst. Not the worst, but one of. The Tex trade may prove to be the worst, but we’ll see. The Braves used to punk other teams on trades, but they let Oakland punk them for Devine. The Braves bought into the veteran ideology, and the A’s used that to get Devine. Bad assessment by Wren, the only one he’s made thus far….but I’m afraid it had to do more with Bobby than Wren. Afterall, Wren raved about the Anderson trade after he pulled off that masterpiece.

By Bobby's Cox

September 16, 2008 1:21 AM | Link to this

nolie

Fair enough. That lead line was misleading and a typo. I insinuated that you would insinuate what I meant by reading the rest of the post….if that makes sense. It was supposed to mean….well, I think you know by now.

Thanks for that last post, it was refreshing.

By Bobby's Cox

September 16, 2008 1:39 AM | Link to this

Steve from OH

Nice 7:33 post yourself. I often find we disagree, but you have a knack of looking at both sides of a discussion that many on here cannot seem to phantom, even myself sometimes.

Thanks for the EqA stat. I’m gonna look into it. And you’re right, I should’ve taken away CS from the stats I threw up. Thanks for acknowledging the SB though.

You and I agree that Schaffer will be the better player of the 3. He’s got the speed, he’ll put up the stats, and he’s got more pop than Anderson and Blanco. When he’s ready, the job is his, and I’m fine with that.

I don’t like Anderson as much as it may seem. I just didn’t like him spending all year in the minors at the expense of Devine. Keep in mind that if the Braves had Anderson in CF all year, they give a kid more major league experience to be a solidified backup next year…a backup that can come in ballgames in late innings as a defensive replacement and as a guy that can swipe bases or put pressure on pitchers in close games. Blanco looks to be the better hitter, but Anderson is the better bench/late inning guy because of his speed. That’s what those players value to the team will be when Schaffer is ready, because the power hitting RF next year won’t be a defensive specialist.

Kotsay went to my Alma-Mater. I’m a lifelong fan of his. But, I did not agree giving up Devine for him….no way, no how. I rather would’ve gone the Anderson route for 1 year.

Whether or not you agree with it, I’m sure you see that reasoning, like you do everything else.

By NO MORE BOBBY

September 16, 2008 1:49 AM | Link to this

For those who got a Bobby Cox bobblehead at the game last week…….

Is it me or does the bobblehead look more like Reds ex manager Davey Johnson than Bobby Cox?

By Bobby's Cox

September 16, 2008 2:00 AM | Link to this

Steve,

I get your drift:

You’re right. Guys are done growing physically around 22 or so, especially at 25. In fact, many guys (myself included) had the same skill level at that age than when they were 18,19, but were better players just because they had matured physically.

However, they are not done growing mentally. Chipper is a much better hitter now than he was when he was 27, 28,29. David Segui, Gary Gaetti, Jim Leyritz, Jim Edmonds, Paul O’Neil, Craig Counsell, & others became solid clutch hitters in their older years because they had matured mentally. They understood what a pitcher was trying to do with them at the plate and learned what they had to do to be successful in certain situations. Guys gain that through experience.

That’s what I mean when I say guys like Juan Rivera have turned into a nice veteran hitter. Look at Rivera’s late & close numbers this year, his SLG with RISP and 2 out (4 HR in 23 AB). I wouldn’t mind having a guy like him or Ibanez (well, before Braveheart threw his defense slideshow at me) in LF before Heyward & Gorkys are ready. But, I’d much rather have a younger Cruz :)

By Willie Randolph

September 16, 2008 2:19 AM | Link to this

METS are choking again, this time without ME!

By Mike in LA

September 16, 2008 3:01 AM | Link to this

DOB, any chance Justin Verlander is made available given his poor season by his standards? If so mabye Wren can workout a blockbuster to get him and Magglio Ordonez. How about Lillibridge, Kelly Johnson, Jeff Francoeur, Charlie Morton, Jojo Reyes, and Tyler Flowers or the first baseman thats tearing it up this year in the minors (can’t remember his name) for those two. Then the Braves could sign Derek Lowe to a 4 year 32 million dollar deal and Juan Rivera to a two year 5 million deal. Mabye trade Brandon Jones to Kansas for Ron Mahay.

How bout this Lineup

Schafer/Anderson Prado Chipper Ordonez Mccann Escobar Kotchman Rivera

Rotation: Verlander, Jurrjens, Smoltz, Lowe, Glavine Bullpen: Gonzalez,Soriano, Moylan, Mahay, Carlyle, Bennett, Campillo

And extra help at some point in 09: Hanson, Hudson, Chuck James

This would stay within the limits of the proposed 30 to 40 million extra the Braves have to spend

By Metropolitan Man

September 16, 2008 7:59 AM | Link to this

Hang on Willie, 2 things are gonna happen within the next 3 games.

1) The braves will play hard against the philthies.

2) They will not play hard against the philthies trying to lose as many as possible fora high draft pick and screwing the METS in the process.

My money is on # 2 but now that the wild card is partially in the NL East, it could very well end up with the 2 teams you despise (METS most obviously) in the playoffs. That my friends would be considered poetic justice. Now if the METS would stop losing to teams that dominated you guys in the season, this collaspe talk could cease.

By London Correspondent

September 16, 2008 8:04 AM | Link to this

“firenedyost.com”???? Sheesh.

I’ve looked at blogs for a lot of teams. There are three kinds of haters -

(1) Those that hate the manager - constant second-guessers. (2) Those that hate the bullpen - screaming for blood every time some tired-out reliever on the minimum salary gives up a run. (3) Those that hate the bench - and seem to believe that the bench should be made up of future hall-of-famers who will hit .500 once a week for $400,000 a year.

We have them here. We know the Cox haters, the “A-costya” haters, the Norton haters (remember when you wanted him thrown under a bus??). Every team has the same bunch of fans.

It makes me laugh, that’s all.

By Couch Tater

September 16, 2008 8:42 AM | Link to this

London Correspondent

Yes, but only one group of fans who hate the evil gazing chopping cow whose wrath is cast upon elbows and shoulders.

By flange1

September 16, 2008 8:45 AM | Link to this

Morning All,

Interesting games last night! The Red Sox let the Rays know that they would not go quietly and the Nats pushed the Mets button again.

It is going to be VERY interesting to see what happens to the Mets in the last games of the season. While I dislike the Mets intensely, I think there is a real good chance that a second collapse in going to take place.

The Mets team this year is different from last year, they have a couple of starters that are pitching well and the everyday lineup is hitting pretty well.

But their bullpen is totally hit or miss.

Interesting watching Manuel stick with his starters longer than he wants to to avoid dipping into his pen.

The Mets are lucky that the Brewers are exploding at the same time. It appears to me that the Phillies and the Mets have the easier schedule but, if the Braves continue to play well, it could be a fun 2 weeks.

Not trying to start anything with the Mets faithful, but if they don’t hit (like last night) and have to dip into their shaky bullpen, things could get nasty again for the Metties……

By Thrillhouse44

September 16, 2008 8:48 AM | Link to this

London Correspondent, don’t forget about the haters who hate the GM for every injury that happens while ignoring the JJJ and Gorkys Hernandez for Renteria trade. Haterade comes in many different flavors around here.

Go Braves!

By Shaun

September 16, 2008 8:59 AM | Link to this

You can’t possibly tell how a guy’s speed affects the rate he gets on base by looking at OBP, any more than you can tell by looking at his BA.

Bobby’s, the point is you can tell if a guy’s getting on base and not making outs. And if a speedy guy is still getting on at a poor rate, we can reasonably assume speed is not helping.

Regarding minor league stats, what do you think stats indicate? They indicate ability. And if you look at the right stats in the right way, they are going to give you a pretty good idea of what a player does well and doesn’t do well. And if a player does one thing extremely well in several levels of the minors, chances are he’s going to be pretty good at it in the majors.

And I don’t think Nelson Cruz is a good option for an everyday major league job. His impressive minor league stats are largely a result of the Pacific Coast League’s hitter-friendliness. The PCL teams in the middle of the pack in runs scored are hitting in the .270-.300 range with an OBP around .350 and a slugging around .445-.450.

Cruz has played parts of the last four seasons in the PCL.

By WaitTilNextYear

September 16, 2008 9:10 AM | Link to this

While there have been some bright spots in this dismal season, they have been few. Josh Anderson has impressed as has Martin Prado. Why not put Prado in the every day lineup next year and play Kelly Johnson in left field if he’s still with the team? While Anderson has played well, the question about him is if he can learn to hit the curve and do what he has done on an every day basis. Big questions in the lineup seem to be LF, CF, RF, SS and 2B. Then there is the pitching staff…

By Shaun

September 16, 2008 9:19 AM | Link to this

flange1, It is going to be interesting. It looked like the Mets were in a good spot. Now they are only one ahead in the loss column and still have four games remaining against the Cubs. The edge in the schedule that the Mets had a week ago has disappeared and it looks like they have the slightly tougher schedule.

Also the Brewers are essentially even with the East leaders. But they have six left with the Cubs and I’d imagine the Cubs have every incentive to go for it and knock Sheets, Sabathia and Co. out of the playoffs so they don’t have to deal with them. But the Brewers also play six games against two of the worst teams in baseball in Pittsburgh and Cincinnati, which may cancel out the six against the Cubs.

It’s going to be a fun three-team race for two spots.

By Metropolitan Man

September 16, 2008 9:22 AM | Link to this

So far the METS have had one 2 game skid since August. My money is on the METS correcting their current situation and to continue to forge forward. You can plainy see that they are pressing and if Manuel can’t get these guys to the promise land then some of the things here will be more than just dislike for the METS, it would be more like dare I say, “some truth”. Man, rooting for the braves for 6 games, this calls for alcohol.

By DAP

September 16, 2008 9:24 AM | Link to this

is anybody else surprised that huston is only 2.5 games back in the wild card? it seems like they came out of nowhere, and ive been making fun of them for months for thinking they had a shot. my bad.

By Random 2a+b of 6

September 16, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

DOB: ”By the way, who was it on here that for weeks on end … “

ME!!! Me, me, me — It was me!!! Random!!! (2 Jun)

And many others as well, including most notably Bravesfan79 (23 May)

Except, of course, it wasn’t “for weeks on end”. I first mentioned the possibility during spring training (10 Mar), and you pooh-poohed it then, and I dropped it.

(2bc)

By Random 3 of 6

September 16, 2008 9:40 AM | Link to this

ALAGT and Bravesfan79 then brought it back up immediately after Pena’s DFA on 23 May. The possible impact on Escobar was discussed pro/con, yea/nay, up/down, right/left, etc/etc, by at least 20 different commenters, but for no more than about a week and a half or so (23 May — 2 or 3 Jun).

You’re so snide, smug and snarky whenever you think you’re right, now aren’t you? Especially when you get to cherry-pick your stats.

(2bc)

By Shaun

September 16, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this

WaitTilNextYear, I don’t know if SS or 2B are big questions. Escobar has played well. Second shouldn’t be a concern, whether it’s Johnson or Prado next season.

Corner outfield is the question mark. Do they stick with Francoeur if he continues to struggle? Who plays left?

Centerfield is a minor question mark, but they have options there with three players who can likely at least play adequately.

I kind of view this season as a last hurrah for the John Schuerholz era in this franchise’s history. Wren tried to build around a core that Schuerholz set up in order to make a playoff run. Next season we’ll get an idea of the direction of the team under Frank Wren’s leadership.

By Random 4 of 6

September 16, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this

Pena was DFA’d on 23 May — Escobar has played 86 games since then. How’d you come up with your “past 54 games”/“past 31 games“ splits, except by cherry-picking? The past 54 games would be those from 1 Jul thru 11 Sep. But the past 31 games?!?!? That would be the games from 7 Aug thru 11 Sep. Why start counting at 7 Aug, except to cherry-pick?

Look at these here numbers for Escobar (BA/OBP/SLG):

(2bc)

By Walker Texas Bum

September 16, 2008 9:48 AM | Link to this

Who the h3ll is huston?

By Random 6 of 6

September 16, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this

All any of us were saying (at least all I was saying — asking, actually) was that Pena’s DFA would have a negative impact on Escobar’s performance.

And it looks to me like there was a negative impact from the end of May thru 6 Aug (your cut-off date) — but nobody ever said it would be permanent (‘s far as I know).

So what exactly was your point? That you were right?

Sure you were, DOB — of course you were right. You always are, right?

fin

By Random 7 of 6

September 16, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this

Comment Submission Error

Your comment submission failed for the following reasons:

Too many comments have been submitted from you in a short period of time. Please try again in a short while.

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;->

By brent a.

September 16, 2008 10:00 AM | Link to this

Are the Mets’ fans gonna blame Tom Glavine for this year’s collapse, too?

By Shaun

September 16, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this

Escobar from May 23 on: .275/.355/.386

Escobar 2008 stats up until May 23: .315/.386/.435

Escobar career stats up until May 23, 2008: .322/.386/.446

Escobar, 2nd half of ‘08: .293/.383/.436

Escobar career: .303/.373/.421

Escobar’s 2nd half OBP and SLG are better than his career OBP and SLG. His second half numbers are reasonably close to his career stats prior to Pena’s release. I think it’s a stretch to conclude his struggles had something to do with Pena’s release. It’s possible, I suppose, but it’s far from a sure thing as a few have assumed.

By David O'Brien

September 16, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this

That series of rambling, incensed posts would be humorous, if it weren’t a bit frightening (in an obsessed, careening-off-the-rails sort of way)….

Anyway, again, for one or two folks here who often throw around the term cherry-pick: In the case of quoting baseball stats, etc., we often will focus on a particularly poor stretch of games or particularly good stretch of games by a player in order to cite a streak, as in either a cold or hot streak. Also sometimes known as a slump, a skid, or as a surge or torrid stretch, etc.

It only lessens one’s own point, diminishes the surge or skid, whichever the case may be, to cite, say, five games before it when the player was not hot or was not cold. Understand?

In other words, if he’s been hot for 43 games, for instance, you wouldn’t cite his numbers over the past 45 games. Or if he’s been in a 27-game skid in which he’s 10-for-98, you wouldn’t cite the three games before the skid when he was 6-for-12 with two homers, because it would not reflect the level of slump he’s in.

In the case of Escobar, I was doing a note for the paper (and the blog) about how hot he’s been. I used the same numbers that I’d looked up for the hot streak, used those same numbers for the quick comment, one of dozens of comments I typically make within the comments section of the blog each day.

OK, that’s all. Please resume incoherent submissions. What are you on, No. 8 of 6 now?

By braves70

September 16, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

The Bobby Cox style of managing bites the dust again. On the Ned Yost (Bobby Cox student)firing in Milwaukee: Yost became a lightning rod for fan criticism in Milwaukee in recent years as he stubbornly stuck by players mired in slumps and refused to criticize them in public…

Sorry Ned that you had to learn from a loser like Cox. At least the people of Milwaukee demanded a chnage and got it. If only we could follow that example.

By flange1

September 16, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

brent a,

Yes! Glavine is causing the current Mets collapse by the force of his powerful “union” personality.

He is able to send bad karma “waves” to Mets players by osmosis.

And folks wonder why the Braves signed him in 2008

By Steve from OH

September 16, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this

Current playoff odds repot:

Angels 100.0% Cubs 99.9% Red Sox 99.9% Dodgers 98.6% Rays 99.9% Mets 73.4% White Sox 76.6% Phillies 64.4% Twins 23.5% Brewers 53.5% Blue Jays <0.1% Astros 7.6%

The mutts were at 89% two days ago. Now it’s almost an even race. Whaddya think their odds will be when they lose again to the Nats tonight?

By Braveheart

September 16, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this

Big questions in the lineup seem to be LF, CF, RF, SS and 2B.

How exactly is SS a BIG question for the Braves? Do you know what Escobar’s ops+ is relative to other SS in the majors? 117. Hardly seems like a big question.

And then factor in his outstanding defense at SS. As has been shown, Escobar has saved 11 runs for the Braves this season with his glove (which is more than any other SS in the majors has saved their team).

Every 11 points of ops+ has been said to be roughly worth 10.5 runs. So tack on another 12 points to Escobar’s ops+ this season.

That gives Escobar an adjusted ops+ of 129 when you consider his defensive value combined with his offensive value for the position he plays.

There is nothing to question at SS

Consider this as well:

Yunel Escobar, first 940 plate appearances for his career:

.303 AVG, .373 obp, .421 SLG

Derek Jeter, first 940 plate appearances for his career:

.301 AVG, .364 obp, .418 slg

Jeter was younger than Escobar when he did that so you have to discount for that factor but Escobar has been the far superior defender to Jeter.

By N Nine

September 16, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this

See chapter 15 -random you breaking the blog again? :)

By DAP

September 16, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this

sorry, meant houston. they have impressed me. they could sign CC this offseason, you never know.

By Laszlo Lowenstein

September 16, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

Who the h3ll is huston?

He was my director in THE MALTESE FALCON.

By David O'Brien

September 16, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

Mike S.: I liked Intolerable Cruelty, just not as much as most terrific Coen Brothers movies. By regular-movie standards, i.e. most of the mainstream stuff out there, it’s a very good movie. By their lofty standards, I didn’t think so. Not quite. But still good….

Oh, and several people on the blog have given the Metallica album strong reviews. Plan to get it and a couple others tomorrow on my day off, including the Calexico album that also came out last week. The New Kings of Leon CD is out next week, I think.

By DAP

September 16, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this

what do you guys think of escobar batting 5th lately? personally, i like it. to have him down there, i think we need better player at the top of the order, but escobar is a nice weapon in the 5 hole.

By David O'Brien

September 16, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this

Braveheart, fine job on the start-of-career offensive comparison of Escobar and Jeter. Wow. I’m kinda surprised they’re so even. Good stuff.

And you’re right, anyone who see SS is a “big question” for Braves entering offseason has a different to-do list than team officials are working off.

By Random 7 of 6

September 16, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this

Shaun: “Escobar’s 2nd half OBP and SLG are better than his career OBP and SLG. His second half numbers are reasonably close to his career stats prior to Pena’s release. I think it’s a stretch to conclude his struggles had something to do with Pena’s release. It’s possible, I suppose, but it’s far from a sure thing as a few have assumed.”

Agreed — no one has concluded that Pena was the sole reason for Escobar’s immediate deterioration in performance after his DFA (23-31 may), nor in the subsequent months (jun not so bad, Jul terrible).

But DOB cannot bring himself to admit there was any deterioration at all.

The splits I’ve been trying to post for days now are Opening day — 22 May; 23 — 31 May; Jun; Jul; 1 — 6 Aug; 7 — 31 Aug; 1 — 11 Sep; based on the date of pena’s DFA, ease of finding monthly totals, and DOB’s own arbitrary date of 7 Aug.

Check them out, esp 23 — 31 May.

By Shaun

September 16, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this

braves70, I think the Yost firing has more to do with trying to fire up the Brewers’ players than with Yost’s managerial style.

If you think Yost is just like Bobby Cox, you haven’t paid much attention. Yost has batted his pitcher 8th, he’s alternated pitchers for one slot in the rotation depending on if the start comes at home or away. Cox is an old-school type who often sticks to conventions. I’m sure there are some similarities but there are just as many differences.

It’s humorous the lengths people will go to to try to discredit Bobby Cox.

By Original Jon

September 16, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

Hey Dave The New Metallica album is by far the best album, IMHO, that they have put out the past few times. It sounds like old school Metallica with the intricate layouts of the music and some awesome solos. Definitely a must get if you like Metallica.

By Shaun

September 16, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

The Yost firing has little to do with Yost. Does anyone really believe that the Brewers thought Yost was good enough from 2003 through most of this season but thought he wasn’t good enough over the last eight games?

This was clearly a move to try to do a little bit to shake up and wake up the players.

By DAP

September 16, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this

has anybody heard anything definitive on if the brewers will pickup mike cameron’s option for ‘09?

my semi-realistic hopes for this offseason would be to sign both mike cameron and casey blake to play CF and LF respectivly. if cameron doesnt get picked up, i think we really need to try and get him. (p.s. looking back, i wish we had signed him this offseason, despite his suspension)

By brent a.

September 16, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this

Escobar slumped for some reason. Pena may have been a factor, but that shoulder sure didn’t help.

He seems fine now.

Let’s move along.

Escobar at SS in 2009 & beyond.

By Shaun

September 16, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this

Random, the point is players have up-and-down stretches all the time. Why should we conclude that Pena has anything to do with any struggles by Escobar? Why is it more likely that Pena’s situation caused Escobar to slump than it is just a natural slump that baseball players go through? Kind of a big assertion to make without any solid evidence.

By Big Cat

September 16, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this

Love to eat them mousies,

Mousies what I love to eat!

Bite they little heads off,

Nibble on they tiny feet!

By Random

September 16, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this

Shaun: “the point is players have up-and-down stretches all the time.”

Sure — and for a wide variety of reasons. Why a priori exclude the emotional impact of Pena’s DFA as a possible reason for Escobar’s subsequent slump?

“Why should we conclude that Pena has anything to do with any struggles by Escobar?”

No one (that I know) has firmly concluded that. Various of us have raised it as a possible contributor to “his struggles”. Only to be ridiculed.

“Why is it more likely that Pena’s situation caused Escobar to slump than it is just a natural slump that baseball players go through?” It’s not — no one said it was.

“Kind of a big assertion to make without any solid evidence.”

I’ll tell you, I’m pulling my hair out because DOB’s (hypothetical) machinations and (alleged) cyber harassment are preventing me from posting the exact kind of “solid evidence” that I agree with you such discussions do require.

AArrgghh.

By Random 5 of 6

September 16, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this

Look at these here numbers for Escobar (BA/OBP/SLG):

All reg season games thru 22 May: .315/.388/.435, 11 XB hits

23 May thru 31 May: .231/.286/.231, 0 XB hits

June: .287/.380/.402, 6 XB hits

July: .230/.296/.297, 5 XB hits

1 Aug thru 6 Aug: .167/.167/.250, 2 XB hits

7 Aug thru 31 Aug: .313/.382/.475, 8 XB hits

1 Sep thru 11 Sep: .350/.500./629, 4 XB hits

(2bc)

By ColoradoBravesFan

September 16, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this

Random, I believe that Escobar’s slump had more to do with injuries. He hurt his leg with the hard slide that knocked out Church of the Mets. Then hurt his shoulder when Prince Fielder’s leg landed on his shoulder. Not sure at all but I believe his struggles at the plate match these injuries, just maybe coincidence that Pena was DFA at this time…

Just a guess, didn’t do any research to back this up…

By DAP

September 16, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this

i think this is a really stupid discussion.

thats just my opinion though. its not worth adding anything else.

By Random

September 16, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this

DOB: “That series of rambling, incensed posts would be humorous, if it weren’t a bit frightening (in an obsessed, careening-off-the-rails sort of way)….”

It’s what you have reduced me to by placing a limit on the size of my posts.

“OK, that’s all. Please resume incoherent submissions. What are you on, No. 8 of 6 now?”

Still waiting for 2a and 2b to post (each containing a link, so probably over my size limit; 2a+b contains the same info with dates instead of links), as well as 5, which contained the statistical splits that formed the bases of my positions.

PS: Can’t even bring yourself to say my name, can you?

By TommyP

September 16, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

May23-31: Yunel mopes after the trade of said friend, Brayan. (.232/.286/.231)

June: Brayan sends letter to Yunel stating that he could always be dealt BACK to the Braves given that Corky is the backup. (.287/.380/.402)

July: “We have to end this, Yunel. This isn’t going to work. This is my last letter.” (.230/.296/.297)

Aug.1-6: Yunel realizes that WAS the last letter. (.167/.167/.250)

Aug.7-31: Brayan IMs Yunel and they talk about the good times. (.313/.382/.475)

Sept.1-11: Brayan and Yunel plan an offseason fishing trip in the Caribbean. (.350/.500/.629)

Interesting stats but this isn’t some Reality TV series. :) It’s baseball….a marathon of ups and downs, streaks and slumps….

By Brian

September 16, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

DAP- I’m with you buddy!! I hope O’Brien puts a new blog up soon cause there’s only so many times you can mention Pena,Escobar’s injury, KJ’s hot streak, Pena, Escobar’s injury, KJ’s hot streak and on and on and on!!

By Braveheart

September 16, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this

The busted knee on Church’s head, the busted shoulder diving into first, the busted finger on the botched bunt and adjustments finally being made to him had more to do with any short term downturn. Knees, fingers, and shoulders are needed to drive the ball. He wasn’t driving the ball at all during the timeframe. The rest of his game was fine. That tells you it was injuries and not injured feelings. Random, sorry, man, but this really is boring and tedious.

By Braves20

September 16, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this

re: the canning of Ned Yost for only being 16 games about .500.

Perhaps somewhere out there is a team 16 games under .500 that could use him. Actually there are several but one comes to mind.

By Random

September 16, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this

ColoradoBravesFan: “I believe that Escobar’s slump had more to do with injuries. He hurt his leg with the hard slide that knocked out Church of the Mets. Then hurt his shoulder when Prince Fielder’s leg landed on his shoulder. Not sure at all but I believe his struggles at the plate match these injuries, just maybe coincidence that Pena was DFA at this time… … Just a guess, didn’t do any research to back this up…”

I also believe injuries were a factor — the finger he busted on the botched bunt and the leg he messed up on the Church double play. I tried to link to a previous post from 2 Jun where that was discussed, but my comment was rejected. (I’m working under some kind of size limit on my comments, so I can no longer include any hyperlinks at all.)

But, yeah, good points. (And good memory!)

By Shaun

September 16, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this

Random, if you have some solid evidence about Escobar and Pena, I wish you would post it. I have seen absolutely nothing that would make me believe Pena’s situation caused any Escobar slump. I think it’s a slight possibility but it’s a big leap to draw that conclusion. And my view is that if it’s not very likely, why is it worth bringing up? Obviously the people who are bringing it up think it’s likely otherwise they wouldn’t.

ColoradoBravesFan brings up a great point, seems injury is the first place we should look if a player is not playing like we would expect. But with Escobar, are his stats after Pena was designated really all that far off of the range of possibility from what we’d reasonably expect from him?

First, we should ask if Escobar really played far worse than reasonable expectations after Pena was designated? If so, what’s the cause? I don’t even think the answer to the first question is a resounding ‘yes.’

By DAP

September 16, 2008 12:23 PM | Link to this

tommy p love it. thank you for that.

By Big Cat

September 16, 2008 12:24 PM | Link to this

Do short posts, like the Big Cat, and they all come through, and nobody gets upset, except for the little mousies!

By Big Cat

September 16, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this

Did Escobar get over his sadness from the loss of his friend in August and September when his hitting improved?

By Random

September 16, 2008 12:42 PM | Link to this

DOB: “Anyway, again, for one or two folks here who often throw around the term cherry-pick: In the case of quoting baseball stats, etc., we often will focus on blah, blah, blah, etc… . Understand?”

I do now — you were misguidedly using the same stats that show Escobar’s recent hotness (and I totally agree that for that purpose, you do want to omit the games of 1-6 Aug; that should be obvious to anyone) to deny any impact on Escobar’s performance from Pena’s DFA.

And that’s an obvious misuse of statistics. And it is cherry-picking (for the purpose of denying any Pena-effect) by totally omitting stats from Escobar’s first 22 games immediately following Pena’s DFA.

“In the case of Escobar, I was doing a note for the paper (and the blog) about how hot he’s been. I used the same numbers that I’d looked up for the hot streak, used those same numbers for the quick comment, one of dozens of comments I typically make within the comments section of the blog each day.”

And one of dozens of comments that (typically) we here are allowed to agree with, take issue with, discuss and/or dispute. And the tone of your comment was begging for some dispute, now wasn’t it?

Or did I just imagine your sarcasm?

By Braveheart

September 16, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this

Did Escobar get over his sadness from the loss of his friend in August and September when his hitting improved?

The truth is that escobar got all blue after N8 drowned Escobar in a big ole bowl of sadness as only N8 can do. N8 was ticked about the antics down in Miami. Now that N8 has been busy at work for the last month and unable to do his daily dunking of Escobar’s head in the big bowl of sadness, Escobar has thrived.

By Big Cat

September 16, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this

Braveheart Why would you want to disparage that nice man, N8? He is a friend to cats.

I think Escobar needs a pet cat.

By DAP

September 16, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this

im excited about escobar next season. i didnt even realize he has hit 10 homers this year. i think if he can keep from concussing guys with his knee, 20 homers isnt out of the question.

By I can't take it anymore

September 16, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this

Is there any plans to shut down Jair Jurrjens? 176.1 IP. Why is he still out there? So he can effect the race? With all that has happened to this team in terms of injuries, we have our ONLY 2009 penciled in 22 year old starter out there in meaningless September games. If he complains of shoulder soreness in spring training, Cox should be fired on the spot.

By Random

September 16, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

Shaun: “if you have some solid evidence about Escobar and Pena, I wish you would post it.”

doG, Shaun, I just told you I’d been trying to post the numbers for 3 or 4 days now. They finally made it up at 11:35. (By DOB’s reasoning, I should have included 1 Jun’s game in the 23-31 May stats.)

“I have seen absolutely nothing that would make me believe Pena’s situation caused any Escobar slump.”

Well, first we would have to agree on whether there was actually any slump at all following Pena’s DFA, for whatever reason(s). Otherwise, it’s a non-starter. I guess we have?

*”I think it’s a slight possibility but it’s a big leap to draw that conclusion. And my view is that if it’s not very likely, why is it worth bringing up?

The main reason — the BIG reason? Because it was predicted a month and a half before it actually (apparently) happened. Not that that proves anything in and of itself, but the fact that we’re not merely rationalizing a slump after the fact but possibly verifying a prescient prediction makes its consideration and discussion worthwhile.

“ColoradoBravesFan brings up a great point, seems injury is the first place we should look if a player is not playing like we would expect.”

Already agreed with CBF. There’s also this, from a link to a 2 Jun that I was unable to slide past the filter:

“Braveheart: “It’s probably the finger and the leg much more than Pena and batting leadoff. Or it could just be a bit of a slump”

R: “Post hoc, ergo propter hoc, eh?

“25 Apr: Escobar’s finger-busting bunt

“21 May: Escobar-Church incident

“23 May: Pena DFA’d

“Gonna be kinda hard to segregate or differentiate the separate impacts of the last two events based on timetables alone.”

“But with Escobar, are his stats after Pena was designated really all that far off of the range of possibility from what we’d reasonably expect from him?”

Good and valid question — I’ve not yet had time to study yours of 10:06 today (been wrestling with my PC), but I will.

“First, we should ask if Escobar really played far worse than reasonable expectations after Pena was designated? If so, what’s the cause? I don’t even think the answer to the first question is a resounding ‘yes.’”

Excellent approach. Thanks.

By Supes

September 16, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this

DOB

Regarding Escobar, do you think that batting him lower in the order, and not in the 2nd spot has actually helped him? It seems the last few weeks, when he’s been batting 5th of lower he’s gotten some big hits, and hit with a bit more power (just making more solid contact)

Any thoughts on that? Possible that the Braves/Bobby considers batting him lower in the order next year based on this?

By Efrim

September 16, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

Thought this was pretty interesting:

JIM, Birmingham: Is this a Cubs chat or something?…How bad to the Braves look right now? Their “gotta tip your cap” philosophy seems to be wearing thin on fans, and they look unmotivated and talentless. Will it be 4-5 years before they are a contender again?

Rob Neyer: Hey, it’s hard to look good at the end of a 72-win season. Granted, it’s hard to see things getting much better anytime soon…

I wish he went into why? If you have an unbiased opinion, I could see why you might think the Braves don’t have a shot in heck to compete with the Mets or Phillies next season. Especially looking at their current roster. But there is an offseason ahead, an important one. Hopefully FW makes some moves to get this team back on top in 2009, although, I’ll settle for “just in the mix of things around September” at this point.

By Big Cat

September 16, 2008 1:31 PM | Link to this

Random, you need to get a kitty.

By David O'Brien

September 16, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

Random, Random, Random (since redundancy seems to suit you): You’re right. Yes. Escobar needed his friend around so he could do his job in those weeks after Pena was traded. He’s not mentally strong enough to separate his anger or disappointment from his job.

Nevermind that Yunel would probably punch you in the face for insinuating as much, for saying didn’t play well in those weeks because his friend was traded, we’ll go with your theory anyway.

Now please, stop the silly rants about limiting length of your posts and all the other garbage. You’ve long since, to use a tired cliche, jumped the shark on this subject.

NO ONE is limiting anything you’re writing (much as I’m sure plenty of folks here wish someone would).

I’ve been stopping by for five minutes a pop last night and this morning while doing a couple of projects around the house. Each time I see your rants about being edited and I’ve gone from amused to bored and now, well, gonna have to ignore your posts for a while for my own sanity. You’re wearing us out.

So for the love of all that’s holy, please get over it. Escobar’s been one of the Braves’ top players the past two months. But nevermind. Please. Nevermind. For many others here, I say “Uncle.”

By Shaun

September 16, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this

This just in: Dr. Phil doing a show on Escobar’s separation anxiety.

Seriously, a few people (maybe just one?) act like athletes are the most mentally unstable people you can imagine.

Escobar survived a boat ride in shark-infested waters away from the country where he grew up. He left family and friends behind. He reached a country without anything but his baseball ability and the clothes on his back. I seriously doubt he had a hard time handling a friend moving to a different team. It’s not like something happened to Pena or he went to jail or something.

By nolie

September 16, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this

1) Those that hate the manager - constant second-guessers. (2) Those that hate the bullpen - screaming for blood every time some tired-out reliever on the minimum salary gives up a run. (3) Those that hate the benchLondon

you left out those who hate Francoeur Mr. Correspondent

By Big Cat

September 16, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this

Mr. O’Brien: Are you putting in a kitty door?

By nolie

September 16, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this

my semi-realistic hopes for this offseason would be to sign both mike cameron and casey blake to play CF and LF respectivlyDAP

Mike cameron??? of the 160 Ks and .245 BA? I think I’ll pass on that one, thanks.

By Shaun

September 16, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this

nolie, actually the Mike Cameron of the .335 on-base and .505 Slugging.

But I do agree it probably wouldn’t be a wise move for the Braves at his age and the salary he may command.

By DAP

September 16, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this

nolie mike cameron, the .840 OPS and very good defense guy. the 25 homers in under 400 ABs this year.

i know he wouldnt be a hugly popular choice, and im not saying hes the best ever, but he is a solid player, a versitile outfielder, a veteran, a righty, hits for power…he would be good for this team.

By DAP

September 16, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this

shaun i think he would be worth at least what he is making this year ($7mil) for a couple of years. i see his age as a plus, since he wouldnt require a long commitment, and would be a veteran presence. BUT, its all moot if the brewers exercise his option…do you guys think they will or not?

while were at it, do you guys think the angels will exercise vlad’s option?

By Random

September 16, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this

Braveheart: “sorry, man, but this really is boring and tedious.”

How well I know — tell me about it — I couldn’t agree more — etc.

The whole damm discussion would’ve been over and done with three days ago if I’d been permitted by the ‘meister to post my original comment in toto.

Sorry, folks, but until I’m fully and completely banned, I’ll continue to try to contribute to the blog by any means necessary.

8-)

By Brian

September 16, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this

I can’t beleive I’m actually getting on board with this Escobar talk but I would have to say he has never really gone through any extended slump this year at all. The injury slowed his bat down some but even alot of the dp’s he’s grounded into are because he hits the ball so damn hard! He might turn into one of the best SS of all time someday and the power will go up, for sure. Someone mentioned Devine as one of the worst trades in franchise history..yeah right! Trading Escobar right now would be, without question!

By Shaun

September 16, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this

Cameron has the 7th-best OPS among ML centerfielders with at least 450 plate appearances. Cameron’s season compared favorably to Rick Ankiel’s.

Cameron would be an excellent option if they could get him for under about $3 million for one year. But I don’t know if that is possible. Could be.

By David O'Brien

September 16, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this

NEW BLOG IS UP, or will be very soon….

By Daddy Reitsma

September 16, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

Eat your hearts out Braves fan,you desreve to have the year you are having for the way you treated my Boy Chris.You had a great reliever in your bullpen with my boy but you didn’t appreciate him so you are getting what you deserve,now you are mistrating our cousin Elmer.Elmer Dessens will be a great pitcher next year and you will regret not having him in your rotation.My boy Chris will be back next year and will be the best reliever in baseball.wait and see. I predict 60 saves for him.

By Daddy Reitsma

September 16, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

Eat your hearts out Braves fan,you desreve to have the year you are having for the way you treated my Boy Chris.You had a great reliever in your bullpen with my boy but you didn’t appreciate him so you are getting what you deserve,now you are mistrating our cousin Elmer.Elmer Dessens will be a great pitcher next year and you will regret not having him in your rotation.My boy Chris will be back next year and will be the best reliever in baseball.wait and see. I predict 60 saves for him.

By Daddy Reitsma

September 16, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

Eat your hearts out Braves fan,you desreve to have the year you are having for the way you treated my Boy Chris.You had a great reliever in your bullpen with my boy but you didn’t appreciate him so you are getting what you deserve,now you are mistrating our cousin Elmer.Elmer Dessens will be a great pitcher next year and you will regret not having him in your rotation.My boy Chris will be back next year and will be the best reliever in baseball.wait and see. I predict 60 saves for him.

By Kashi

September 16, 2008 7:34 PM | Link to this

If I were Bobby Cox. My outfield would be INFANTE, ANDERSON, BLANCO. Give Frency a rest - rest of the season and have him watch tapes and other bat. If any of these three put big display then they might be a big trade bits for other teams.