Braves

By N Nine

September 9, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this

the unmagic number (E#) is one. today is the day

By Brook Sheilds

September 9, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

I, for one, wish Smoltz would just disappear. He’ll be nothing but a distraction as he tries to work his way back into shape.

By Tomahawkin

September 9, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

All of the Smoltz talk is really reminding me of that Brett Favre Soap Opera that ESPN got infactuated with over the summer, It is still way to Early to tie any conclusions to anything…I will be more into what happens after the World Series (Especially all of the managerial changes around the league…)

D.O.B I have a an indirect steroid/performance enhancing theory as to why Batting averages as well as Offensive production is way down as opposed to 5 to 10 years ago…

I’ve always thought that more pitchers used performance enhancers 9As opposed to position players) to recover from the Grind of throwing almost at a daily basis (especially relievers) over the coarse of 8-10 months out of the season, therefore I believe that this has a direct correlation as to why Offense in Baseball is dreadful

I cant Remember the last season in that there wasn’t at least one hitter hitting 50+ dingers, hell Baseball will be lucky to have a handfull of guys hitting over 40 homers…That’s absurd as opposed to 5 to 10 years ago…

Thoughts?

By Jim H.

September 9, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this

I love both those guys but I’m hoping they both decide to retire, go into the HOF together (and maybe with Maddox too), and let the Braves move on.

By nelson

September 9, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this

No more smoltz , glavine & hampton !!

bye bye

By Lucas Land

September 9, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this

2009 season will be another long list of injuries and trips to the surgeon if these older players are resigned. Time some of these dinosaurs be put out to pasture. Oh and another season of Cox to boot. Oh boy………..

By N Nine

September 9, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this

Guess the Pujols surgery put off until after 09. Ken Rosenthal reports

For those who want Smoltz to “just go away”, your wishes will not happen..you will see his name all winer long!

By Ed Glennon

September 9, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this

The Braves are almost as painful to watch as Notre Dame football or the MTV Awards.

By brent a.

September 9, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this

smoltz and Favre are very different.

one is a QB who retired, and had a suitable back-up ready to take his place, then decided he wanted to comeback, and wreaked havoc with an organization.

Another is one of 10-12 pitchers on a ML roster, who, if healthy, could be of great use to his team; however, because of a shoulder injury, won’t know if he can play until perhaps as late as 1-2 months into the season.

The Braves won’t be held hostage the way the Packers were.

Both Favre and Smoltz are important figures; however, the role they play on their respective teams is very different.

By TennesseePaul

September 9, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the Beat DOB. Those are some interesting quotes to ponder.

I’m curious as to what will go down this winter. Very curious.

By Hoosier Aaron

September 9, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this

Pay Smoltz a lot of money to become the pitching coach.

I think we’ll see several new faces in the Bravos dugout next year - in terms of coaching. I do think Braves Mgmt likes McDowell - but I’d like to make a move in both hitting and pitching coaches.

Hire Mickey Hatcher as hitting coach from the Angels. To lure him - promise him the manager’s job after Bobby retires.

By Stuart

September 9, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this

The braves are in a real tough spot. The team is more than a year away from being rebuilt, but this is also not they are also not like the pirates with no hope. This team has hope, but if they commit too much money or prospects for a big time pitcher it could cost them dearly if the move doesn’t work out. The team is on the edge of a cliff. Patience is a virtue now. They do not need to go into fill a hole mode and throw money at inflated players. There is no one on the free agent market that will really fill the needs this team has other than Sabathia and sheets and quite frankly I dont trust either.

The braves are better off trying to trade for a bat and saving the money and letting Smoltz and Glavine do a ‘farewell tour’ next year, see if they can land a bat , see if KJ and Frenchy can rebound, and see if Huddy comes back good and then go for the gusto in 2010.

By country boy

September 9, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this

Magnificent song choice.

By Me

September 9, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this

What is there to lose with signing Smoltz? He would accept a low salary, incentive-based contract to stay home and play for his team. It it works out, great, if not, he will still be there to mentor some of the youngers guys. I think it would be a mistake to let him go. He stated here and took less money to do it in the past, so he is loyal to the Braves and I think he deserves the same gratitude from the Braves. Glavine can retire and “Iron” Mike and go back to New York or Houston. But don’t let Smoltz get away.

By Brian

September 9, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this

I don’t see any way Smoltz doesn’t come back unless he feels disrespected(remember Glavine) but I can’t imagine that will ever happen. Smoltz is a real pro and he’s got to understand the Braves need to be sure. Glavine can go on for all I care.

By olereb

September 9, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

Smoltz is a Brave, we should give him every possibility to come back. He could have made more money elsewhere like Glavine did, and with that let Glavine go get that extra million from someone else. He has done it before. We should show loyality to Smoltz,we should show Glavine the door, we owe him nothing, let him go to New York. I feel for Mike Hampton, but you cant count on him, show him respect,but dont count on him. Show Glavine the door!

By GeorgetownKid

September 9, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this

I want Smoltz to come back. There is no player in all of sports (in my opinion) that is more fun to cheer for. And if he does come back, he’ll be good, you can count on that.

I have much less of a connection to Glavine. Also, I am FAR less confident that he would be any good even if he were healthy.

By Jimmy

September 9, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this

brent a:

The braves will be held hostage actually. Not knowing if a player will be healthy or not could be a damper to the team. Much like relying on Hampton the last 2 years.

If smoltz does indeed come out of the bullpen, which I expect he would, then postponing decisions regarding him coming back would be less detrimental to the team.

By champ

September 9, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this

This seems to be way to simple. They do incentive filled baseball contracts, correct? Why not give 1-2 million dollar base contract to smoltz and glavine, with x number of starts = 4 million, x number of wins another 2, etc. If they get an average Smoltz or Glavine season from the previous two years, there should be no problem spending 7-8 million each on two quality pithers. If it doesn’t work out Liberty Media is out a couple millon and two Braves legends retire as Braves. Sounds fair to me.

By flbravesgirl

September 9, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this

Someone with more knowledge about contracts than I have could probably say this better but I assume you would offer something heavy on incentives to Smoltz & Glavine. I know they both have a lot of pride & would like to end their careers on their own terms, rather than because of injury.

Carrying over from the previous blog… McFann, I recommend the Choptalk subscription. It’s a good bit cheaper than cover price.

Scoots, I don’t think you’ll see our green friend here. But he’s well, just very busy these days.

By DAP

September 9, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

stuart so are you suggesting that the braves just not spend the over $30mil they have coming open? so, you want to cut payroll for 2009?

By DAP

September 9, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

DOB im wondering about norton. do you think the braves will keep him as a pinch hitter in 2009? does he seem to gel with the team?

By FDR

September 9, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this

Jesus H. Christ! Retire already! You did help the Braves for a long time, but enough is enough. It’s now time for younger blood, with healthier arms. Be thankful for the long career you had; most don’t get that kind of blessing. Give the Braves a slot to let some new kid get a chance.

By David-ATL14

September 9, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this

DOB good calls on all the solid TV series that are now returning.

Hard to believe but Mad Men Season 2 has the makings of being an All timer in the pantheon of Classic TV.

By Cecil34

September 9, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this

Two issues regarding athlete health, particularly pitchers….

I do not recall pitchers breaking down with the frequency they do now back before Tommy John had his surgery. I do remember how remarkable it was that he was able to come back and be effective.

Back then, there were no pitch counts adhered to, and year around throwing was not in vogue.

Pitchers back then were not babied, and the science of pitching was not yet analyzed to the extent it has been in the last 20 years.

So kids grew up pitching and pitching a lot. Didn’t seem to affect the good ones.

Look at how long Nolan Ryan pitched. He had no pitch counts. or Bob Gibson. Remember how dominant they were. Tom Seaver. Steve Carlton.

I think there is a correlation between pitch counts, and injuries and longevity.

Weightlifting could be another culprit that has had a negative effect on the game, at least with those that have carried it to more extreme levels of fitness.

Now, the other area of interest is performance enhancing drugs and their use by pitchers.

If one uses these PED’s to increase natural ability, then I think the risk of injury is going to be elevated. The body (and arm) is being strained perhaps far more than if they were pitching on natural ability alone.

There definately is a correlation between offensive production with and without them.

The stats over the years support that hypothesis.

The stats also support a lot of former-users who have come back to earth

Bonds is no question the tip of the iceburg on the issue of PED’s, but it plays a part in current pitching injuries as well as limiting the amount of work a pitcher does. The arm gets conditioned to pitch X number of innings. When you get into Y number of innings, then fatigue and breakdown of mechanics result in arm problems.

At least these are two strong hypotheses for modern pitching health woes…

By Lee in S GA

September 9, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

champ and fibravesgirl the incentive package sounds like a good idea to me, if you could get Smoltz and Glavine to go for it. Hampton could actaully be the steal out of the bunch. It scares me to say that though.

By Wayne

September 9, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

It appears that we will definitely have lots of Smoltz/Glavine/Hampton discusssions as the winter progresses.

I don’t understand the logic of some that the “old guys should just go away”. I don’t see Frank Wren counting on these three hurlers next year. He might pencil Glavine or Hampton (both, I doubt) into the mix for back of the rotation pieces, along with guys like Campillo, Morton and Reyes. I fully expect most of those 5 plus maybe Hanson to compete for positions #4 and #5.

Personally, I doubt if we will have any blockbuster trades for top of the rotation type starters (Halladay, Peavy etc). Although if we could do it without gutting our top minor league talent, I would be all for getting one of those guys.

FW does talk about adding a few significant pieces to make a run next year. I just hope we don’t pull another Tex move. Let’s keep our top prospects, and trade off the surplus.

Keepers in my way of thinking: Hanson, Schafer, Heyward, Freeman, Rohrbough, Medlen. Expendable: Lillibridge, Redmond, Parr, Locke, Evarts, Owings, BJones, Blanco, Prado.

As Tom Petty says, “The waiting is the hardest part.”

By Threadkiller

September 9, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

Unfortunately, We will see all three back I think! Smoltz, Glavine, Hampton! Let’s hope Smoltz will move to the closer roll! The reason I think they will be back is the loyalty that Bobby has for them. I have a feeling that these three will have a job until “THEY” decide to retire!

By richbrave

September 9, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

MET MAN:

“REEKS?” Damm dude, at least be worthy of the “JOKER” moniker. You “wreak” havoc, but in this case your version is more apropos I suppose.

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this

Champ: Unfortunately it’s not as simple as you suggest. For one, there are no performance incentives allowed in contracts. Wins, strikeouts, etc. Just things like starts or innings or at-bats.

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this

Infante’s in the lineup, playing second base. Might just be because KJ is 0-for-9 vs. Cook. We’ll see. Gotta get downstairs.

By TPM

September 9, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this

John Smoltz thinks he deserves a contract for next year ? Good Grief - he just stole 14 million dollars this year.

By ncscoots

September 9, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this

FBG, tell the Mad Bouncer I said hello, would ya? And tell him I miss his large hairy old self on this forum.

Tell him that if he shows up, I promise to sit idly by while he castigates me about Kyle Davies, LOL.

By McFann Ô

September 9, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

flbravesgirl—

Yeah, I gotta give that some thought. Five bucks for a magazine is absurd.

But of course, the first time I ever went to buy one—the August issue—the store was all out.

By gayle

September 9, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

Smoltz going elsewhere? Who cares?

He held this team for ramsom once already when he demanded to return to the rotation and come out of the ‘pen where he was really helping this team, so why not put himself first again?

Don’t let the door hit you on the way out - and oh, one more thing, PLEASE take Bobby with you!

By Steve from OH

September 9, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this

Wayne, a few things:

You raised an interesting point (at least to me) by including Evarts and Owings as “expendable,” the point being that we’ve got a lot of depth and good players in our system that aren’t exactly household names, but that other teams would value (Campbell, Kaaihue, Owings, Jon Gilmore, Ernesto Meija, Scott Diamond and maybe even Van Pope just off the top of my head). Kaaihue, to me, is a player that I almost definitely see moving in the offseason, and bringing back good value in a package.

Evarts had TJ surgery this year, so I don’t think his value would be high. In any case, I’ve read plenty of testimonials in which several baseball people say they like him better than both Locke and Rohrbough (his changeup is very advanced according to scouts). I agree with your “untouchable” list, but I would include Locke in there as well, just simply becuase hard-throwing lefties are a valuable commodity, and we would be smart to continue to let him develop, in order to both gain value and evaluate whether or not he is in our long-term plans.

But in any case, it is important to realize that there are too many players in our starting pitching picture next season: Jurrjens, Campillo, Morton, Reyes, Parr, Smoltz, Glavine, Hampton maybe Medlen, Hanson and Redmond, and Hudson when he returns from TJ. Consider that we’re trying to add 1-2 other pitchers via trade or free agency. Someone’s gotta go. Trading JoJo and/or Redmond makes a lot of sense.

By Gene

September 9, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

When the time comes, Smoltz will do the right thing, and whatever that is, is fine with me. I would like to see him in broadcasting at some point. He is a class guy in a profession with quite a few entitled two-year-olds prone to throwing tantrums.

By bobby

September 9, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

Pitchers have become babied too much over the last few years. I can remember back to the days of Bob Feller, Allie Reynolds etc. They pitched every fourth day and was not unusual to go 9 innings. Now it is considered a quality start if they go 7. I doubt that very few ever had any kind of arm surgery.

By Novice Ned

September 9, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

DOB, would Smoltz rather pitch for a Braves team that may struggle for a wild card birth or head to a more likely post-season squad? In that Atlanta Magazine article, I also got the sense that he’s not rehabbing just to pitch in the summer’s dog days, he clearly wants to taste the post-season again. Seems it will be in both parties best interests to wait until Wren does the bulk of his shopping/trading before sitting down with Smoltz over a steak dinner.

By BostonBravesGirl

September 9, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

Here in Boston, Schilling signed an incentive-filled contract for this season and it worked out well for both him and the Sox. He got some money and the chance to prove himself, and the Sox were only on the hook for his base salary because he blew out his shoulder early on in the season.

But incentives only work if, obviously, the player thinks it’s a good deal and wants it, like Schilling did. I’m not so sure Smoltz is ready to accept incentives; I can see Glavine going for it though.

By DAP

September 9, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

TPM John Smoltz thinks he deserves a contract for next year ? Good Grief - he just stole 14 million dollars this year.

this is the exact opposite of what smoltz said. please pay attention.

By Brian

September 9, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this

Aaron- This sounds hypocritical, cause I’ve said things about RM before, but it’s too soon to be positive that he is a problem. If next season, we sign guys that have had success and it’s obvious he’s screwed with there mechanics then get someone else. TP is a problem in my mind. His style is not working. Whatever style that is. Why not try out Ron Gant.

By jack trade

September 9, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

Ohio Steve;

Nice post.

By Jersey Gil

September 9, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this

DOB I agree with you, We never heard any Pitching injuries like the past few year. I remember and also saw when Dave Dravecky broke his arms pitching, that was BIG NEWS at that time. But know is a epidemic, now pitcher can’t pitch more than five inning. Good choice in TV show, also tonight is the new show call “Fringe” look is will be good.

By DAP

September 9, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this

does everybody think the angels will pick up guerro’s $15mil option? i think they will…just wondering if that is common wisdom, or if some arent sure.

By BHP

September 9, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this

DOB, Speaking of diversions, Atlanta will have the Allman Bros. on Oct. 10-11, Widespread Panic on Oct. 17-18, and Galactic on Oct. 25. About as good a month of music as can be had. It ain’t the Bravos in the playoffs, but helps dull the pain.

By Supes

September 9, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this

I don’t see anything wrong with the Braves offering John Smoltz an incentive based contract for 1 year. Same for Glavine if he wants to return and is able to.

Bottom line, if both are able to pitch at even 85%, they are still better than most free agents that the Braves could replace them with (that want to come here!).

It’ll be a good PR move as well.

I think a 4-5 million dollar 1 year contract for John, based on innings pitched. Maybe a little less for Tom Glavine?

By Branch Rickey

September 9, 2008 4:25 PM | Link to this

SAY NO TO SMOLTZ, GLAVINE & HAMPTON !

USE THAT MONEY TOWARD MUCH YOUNGER PLAYERS !

LETS BUILD ANOTHER CHAMPIONSHIP CALIBER TEAM !

STOP GOING BACK TO THE DRY WELL OF OLD PLAYERS AND FAN FAVORITES TO SELL TICKETS !

By Steve from OH

September 9, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this

Supes, I agree (moreso on Smoltz than on Glavine). I’d definitely like to see Smoltz back; I’d try pursuing other options before making a decision on Glavine.

By Bobby's Cox

September 9, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this

I wonder if KJ is out of the lineup because he’s 0-9 against Cook, or because of the leg/ankle thing that caused Parr to pinch hit for him in extras last game.

By chipdip

September 9, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this

The BLACK KEYS on Oct.2!!!!!!!!!!!

By Lew

September 9, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

Derek Trucks just played up here in Burlington and Grace Potter came out and jammed with them. Wish I’d made it to that one.

By Lennie G

September 9, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this

Smoltz will not come back if he doesn’t think he can be effective..bottom line. If you,ve paid attention the last 20 years, you should know that by now. The guy’s pitched through more pain than any other pitcher I know of. This year (and most likely much longer) he’s taken the mound with a shoulder that was shot AND HE WAS STILL LIGHTS OUT!! If he can come back and be even 75-80% of what he was, that’s better than anything else we’ve got at this point. He knows how to pitch and knows that he doesn’t have to blow people away anymore to be effective.

I guess what I’m saying is that he knows what’s on the line for not only him but the team as well. If he can pitch, I say we DO need him. Don’t worry about the money. The Braves will poney up if they need to but only if the Braves AND Smoltz think it’s possible….(END SOAPBOX RANT)

By monty

September 9, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this

I used to pitch in High School and American Legion ball. My arm was good for only one game per week. I needed that long to heal. I didn’t lift weights or throw on off days. Personally, I don’t know how these guys can pitch every 5th day and then throw one sideline session in between starts.

By Greg in TN

September 9, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this

Afternoon denizens…

I’ve been catching-up reading on the goings on at Planet Braves after a weekend trip to NYC. I hobbled around on a sore ankle and missed out on the Braves last trip to shea stadium (kind of reminds me in some aspects of the Braves season, injuries and missed opportunities). I will be in Philly in two weeks for at least two games at Citizen’s Bank Wiffleball field, however.

Braveheart: Got a kick out of your awards and am honored and humbled to be bestowed with an award in the name of my all-time favorite Brave. I really enjoy the banter here, have since day one. And I always try and look for your posts, along with Lew, TennPaul, scoots, McFann, ChrisKlob, Wayne in UT, Steve in OH, David ATL-14 and others.

It’s certainly good to see flbravesgirl back on the blog. We do have solid contributions from Carroll and McFann and others that I think are female, but don’t want to put my foot in my mouth in case I’m incorrect in my assumptions. Welcome back flbravesgirl, bring plenty of red velvet cake.

No real surprises in the John Smoltz interview with Atlanta Magazine to me. I see the Braves making Smoltz an offer and if he’s physically able to pitch again, I see Smoltz pitching with a tomahawk on his chest next season.

DOB, don’t know what your schedule is like in Philadelphia on Monday or Tuesday, but this denizen would enjoy shaking your hand and buying lunch or dinner or whatever the schedule of the Crusading Everyman dictates. Even if it’s a quick Philly cheesesteak at Geno’s or Pat’s or anything else.

By Tomahawkin

September 9, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

All of the Smoltz talk is really reminding me of that Brett Favre Soap Opera that ESPN got infactuated with over the summer, It is still way to Early to tie any conclusions to anything…I will be more into what happens after the World Series (Especially all of the managerial changes around the league…)

D.O.B I have a an indirect steroid/performance enhancing theory as to why Batting averages as well as Offensive production is way down as opposed to 5 to 10 years ago…

I’ve always thought that more pitchers used performance enhancers 9As opposed to position players) to recover from the Grind of throwing almost at a daily basis (especially relievers) over the coarse of 8-10 months out of the season, therefore I believe that this has a direct correlation as to why Offense in Baseball is dreadful

I cant Remember the last season in that there wasn’t at least one hitter hitting 50+ dingers, hell Baseball will be lucky to have a handfull of guys hitting over 40 homers…That’s absurd as opposed to 5 to 10 years ago…

Thoughts?

By tapbraves

September 9, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this

We should re-sign Smoltz. Seriously, who would you rather see coming in with a close score, John Smoltz or Blaine Boyer? Smoltz at 50% is still as good or better than anyone we have in the bullpen. He’s not going to start, so he’s not going to take up a major roster spot, but I have no doubt that if he comes back healthy, he will have a monster year pitching in the late innings.

By Nevada Gambler

September 9, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this

Not sure if anyone else saw this, but on the AJC front page it says *(Player) knows his biggest problem is consistency at the plate. But the streaky hitter has been quite productive since late July, smashing a .305 average with 18 extra-base hits

I wonder if Joe Morgan or espn wrote that statement. Truth is, this player was productive at end of July and currently now in Sept, but he was anything but productive in Aug where he hit .237/.276/.301 in August with 5 XBH, 4 2B, 1 3B, 0 HR, 4 BB, and 25 K and was 22 for 93 at the plate.

I’ll go one step farther and say this player has been mediocre to poor for the greater amount of his playing career thus far. With 11 big league months of baseball under his belt since being an everyday starter, (player) has hit over .269 in just 3 of those months. In 5 of those months, (player) has failed to get on base over a .323 clip.

In 7 of those 11 months, (Player’s) SLG was .426 or lower, and in 5 months it was never higher than .360. Additionally, in 8 of those 11 months, (player) hit 2 HR or less, and in 5 months, hit 1 HR or less.

This player’s performance from late July to early August was not an overly productive period. In fact, that stretch is a microcosm of his young career, more down than up (2 weeks good, 4 weeks bad.

give the splits of this player a glance.

By Gregor Fan-co

September 9, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this

Stop lumping Smoltz in with Glavine and Hampton. He is infinitely better.

By George

September 9, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this

The slider requires an unnatural elbow twist that other pitches do not. Pitchers who depend too much on the slider can expect eventual elbow trouble.

By ncscoots

September 9, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this

Steve-OH, man, you GOT to stop putting the hoodoo on my boy Kala, LOL. Might want to keep him in reserve, in case the Kotchman Chronicles turn out to be bad sci-fi. KK has a good eye and can bring the thunder. Plus, he’s just got a KILLER name. :-)

By Jon F.

September 9, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this

DOB, great point about the numerous serious injuries. It does seem that way. Maybe it’s years of steroid use … . Seriously, my guess is that the overall quality of hitting is better than ever before and pitchers are under more pressure than ever.

One solution would be to raise the mound again. This should put less stress on the arm, right?

An objection has been that it might take away from the offensive excitement of the modern game, but the fans seem to have responded positively to the slightly less powerful game of the post-‘roids era. Teams are running more than in recent years. Bottom line, though, if raising the mound slightly would help avoid some of these serious injuries, then do it.

What about the popularity of the slider and cut fastballs these days? Do those pitches put more stress on the arm than curveballs? There just aren’t many guyys anymore it seems that throw a nice tight Uncle Charlie.

By champ

September 9, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this

Damn, well it sounded like a good idea at least.

I would still take my chances with Smoltz with innings or starts. If he is healthy enough to make say 20 starts or 40-50 appreances out of the bullpen he would be worth it. Even if his stuff is not the same he’s still one the most competitive pithers in the game. He would adapt to whatever he has left and still be a good pitcher.

By Nevada Gambler

September 9, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this

So when is Boras going to relocate his office to Atlanta?

Everyone knows, the path to Tommy John runs through Atlanta.

By Jeff321

September 9, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this

There is a huge difference between signing Smoltz and Glavine!

For instance, Smoltz was good before he got hurt.. and Glavine was pretty lame. So, even if Glavine is “all better” next year, he’s still Glavine!

So, good riddance Tommy! Btw, if you want to pitch close to home so bad, perhaps you can “try out” for the Gwinnett Braves, eh?

By Brian

September 9, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this

Whoever thinks this Smoltz thing is gonna turn into a soap opera is over reacting! Maybe on Turner South but not ESPN. They won’t let it get near the Farve thing. I still go with ESPN has no use for the Braves! Just watching them for this long, it’s so obvious.

By Rich

September 9, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this

The Braves need all the money they can get to sign players for next year and beyond. The bad news is if Smoltz and/or Glavine want to play, the Braves will feel obligated to sign them. At any price, that money is better used elsewhere. John and Tom, if you are true Braves, please go out gracefully and retire now.

By AZBravoFan

September 9, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this

DOB What’s your take on Bobby’s handling of the bullpen in general. I realize that the problems with the starting pitching the last few years have put a lot of stress on the pen. But that said, it sure seems like Bobby likes to ride guys till they drop and could be more judicious about how and when he uses certain guys. I can already hear the retort that he’s just trying to win games and when he brings in other guys the game often starts getting out of hand. And maybe that’s true, but I was just curious about your take.

By BostonBravesGirl

September 9, 2008 5:29 PM | Link to this

The Sox signed Schilling for an $8M base salary with these incentives: $333,333 per month to keep his weight down, $1M for at least one Cy Young vote and $2M if he pitched at least 120 innings.

I can’t imagine someone would waste their Cy Young vote on him, and he definitely never made the weight or 120-pitch incentives.

By Metropolitan Man

September 9, 2008 5:32 PM | Link to this

See this is what im talking about braves fans. C. Schilling is giving NY sport fans grief (especailly stankee fans) about the stankees demise in missing the playoffs. As you can clearly see, its ok to bash the other team (in goood fun) of course when things for one franchise turns around while the bullies resort to being bullied.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/09/09/2008-09-09curtschillingripsnewyorkfanssaysy-1.html

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 5:37 PM | Link to this

Smoltz quite surprised and a bit upset that what he said became a headline-making story on ESPN. He said it was misrepresented and that he fully expects to be with the Braves if he can pitch, but that he’s a “zero” on the 0-to-10 scale right now in terms of the team knowing if he can pitch, so he doesn’t expect them to make him an offer anytime soon.

He’s got a regular checkup tomorrow at Andrews’ Birmingham clinic and said the doc will be as “astounded” by Smoltz’s rapid progress as others have been. Timetable is for him to begin light throwing in October, and he believes he’ll know in about 20 days after that whether he’ll be able to pitch, even though he probably won’t be able to prove it until January or February, something like that. He just thinks he’ll know in his own mind within about 20 days.

Actually he said he knows now, but isn’t saying. Smiled when he said that, which tells me he fully intends to pitch, or believes he can. “I’m not going through the motions right now,” he said, meaning he’s not doing this just to do it. He’s doing it to pitch again.. ..

Cox said he’s giving KJ a day off after his severe leg cramps the other day, not because he’s 0-for-9 against Cook….

By Metropolitan Man

September 9, 2008 5:41 PM | Link to this

Here is something to entertain you guys for the duration of the season, now you have a reason to scoreboard watch.

http://nydailynews.sportsballot.com/

By bravos2249

September 9, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this

Jeff 321

How is an era under 2 before Glavine got hurt bad?

Pujols

If he just had a ligament issue that isn’t TJ; then if he waits a year he’ll end up having to HAVE TJ.

IMO

By Tracy

September 9, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this

On Smoltz.

No one owes anyone anything unless your a mortgage lender or credit card company. However…..it is what is right. The Braves should offer Smoltz AND Glavine some kind of deal. Period!

Just as any company should do for any employee who has abundantly produced for them for 21 years!! They should be valued and appreciated. I have no doubt the Braves do value and appreciate both of them….and they should be allowed an opportunity.

By McFann Ô

September 9, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this

Greg in TN—

Thanks! I try to look for your posts as well.

Congrats on your award!

By BostonBravesGirl

September 9, 2008 5:55 PM | Link to this

MetMan, I only brought up Schilling as an example of a pitcher with incentives, but while we’re on the subject, I challenge you to find any Sox player other than Schilling talking trash. They’re professionals, like the Braves.

By Guy

September 9, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this

Think of what the Braves are getting for their money and you know it’s time for some new ideas or new leadership. You can’t hang on to the past and expect things to change.If you keep doing the same things,you get the same results.(or worse) Still,thanks to John,Tom,and soon to be Chipper for the memories.Nothing’s forever and that’s just the way it is.

By DJ

September 9, 2008 6:04 PM | Link to this

DOB Any rumors about shutting down Jair Jurrjens given that the season is done and he’s already 30 innings over last year?

By Chop Chop

September 9, 2008 6:10 PM | Link to this

I deserve an award.

I hereby give myself an award.

Congrats to me.

By Brian

September 9, 2008 6:10 PM | Link to this

This question might be out of nowhere but can someone tell me who the middle aged guy on the vistors dugout is? He’s right in the cameras view when they show the batter’s stats. He’s either a scout or a writer, not sure if that’s O’Brien? Sorry if that’s not you DOB.

By Metropolitan Man

September 9, 2008 6:13 PM | Link to this

BostonBravesGirl

How about Jonathan Papelbon, who insulted M. Rivera at the All Star weekend at Yankees stadium of all places. He may end up being the new Manny over there.

By Wayne

September 9, 2008 6:16 PM | Link to this

Steve in OH For the most part, I think we are in agreement on “keeping” most of our top prospects. While I would be disappointed if we traded one or two of my untouchable list, you are correct that we have quite a few really good prospects.

I am not opposed to giving quality to get quality.

I just like the looks of many of our prospects, and as far as pitching goes, I believe that is the way to success in the future, having the pipeline full.

Sometimes we just need to stay with our guys long enough for them to come around. But I understand the need to compete and win on a yearly basis too.

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 6:17 PM | Link to this

AZBravesFan, I thought he used Ohman, Boyer and Acosta too much in the first months of the season.

I know he did it because he didn’t trust others and because those three were pitching so well, but I still thought he used them too much, in some cases way too much, and only Ohman didn’t fade by midseason (he made it to last month before fatigue set in).

It’s the way Cox has usually used his bullpen, riding a few horses hard, the ones he has trust in. Unless they have a deep, healthy pen like they had, say, in 2002, it’s gonna probably always be like that. They need to spend more to fortify the ‘pen, for sure.

By T-Bone

September 9, 2008 6:19 PM | Link to this

Let Glavine come back as a #5 starter. If he can give us innings, we need them, especially if the boys on the farm are a few years away, and since Hudson is a full season away. And then let Smoltz come back as a reliever/closer. In fact, can you imagine a bullpen made up of Gonzo, Moylan, Soriano, and Smoltz!?

I think we need to spend our money on bats, real bats. And Wren is wrong. We are not simply a few pieces away from contending. We are a few seasons away. So let’s suck it up for a couple of years and start stocking the cupboard. Let’s add bats now, give our young pitchers some time to get some experince and plan for 2011.

By Jeff321

September 9, 2008 6:20 PM | Link to this

How is an era under 2 before Glavine got hurt bad?

ERA under two? I go by the yearly stats, not half seasons or a month which has been cherry picked!

Tom Glavine’s ERA for 2008 - 5.54

By McFann Ô

September 9, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this

Congratulations, Chop Chop!

; )

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this

Nevada Gambler, why don’t you at least have the attention span to read the entire 8-inch note on Kelly before you make completely senseless remarks? Because if you’d read it all, instead of one paragrah, you’d know that was my EXACT POINT, that even though his overall numbers in that 40-some game stretch were solid, he had a dreadful slump in the middle of that, which is continuing the pattern for him.

I wrote this both in that note and in the last blog. You didn’t bother to read either, but you sure jumped in with a pointless critical review after not reading it. Pointless because I DID put in his splits.

Read the note. The whole thing. Come on, I know you can do it. Concentrate for a few minutes.

Oh, OK, I’ll help you. Here’s a couple of paragraphs from the note:

Johnson is a streakier hitter than a lot of others, a hitter who goes through extreme peaks and valleys that would make his performance bar graph look like the EKG of a heart patient riding a rollercoaster.

For example, within that 42-game stretch, he’s had three distinct periods of fluctuation: He hit .391 with a .462 OBP in 13 games from July 23 to Aug. 5, then had a 5-for-43 skid (.116) with a .136 OBP from Aug. 6-21, now a current 15-game tear in which he’s hit .371 with 10 extra-base hits with 12 RBIs.

He knows he needs to become more consistent.

“No question,” said the Texas native, who is in his second full season in the majors and second season at second base after moving from the outfield. “I know I haven’t been good [this season], but the numbers are probably going to be fine.

“If I can finish strong this month, I’ll have had two out of four months that were good, and four that were mediocre. I need to even that out, and I think I can by just learning to play a long season and be more consistent.”

Johnson leads National League second basemen with 36 doubles, and he’s hit .277 with 50 extra-base hits (nine homers) with 60 RBIs and 10 stolen bases. But he’s right: He hit .355 in May and has hit .484 this month, while in four other months he hit .250 or lower, including three months at .237 or lower.

By Jamie in Richmond

September 9, 2008 6:30 PM | Link to this

Gayle

Bashing Smoltz now in addition to Bobby?

I’m sure you’re a nice old lady and everything, but seriously…you’ve proven to be the most uninformed and unqualified person to share your thoughts on this blog of anyone else, and that’s saying a lot.

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 6:30 PM | Link to this

Brian, I have no earthly idea what you’re talking about.

I’m in the pressbox, not “on the visitors dugout,” whatever that means. (On the visitors dugout? Dude, seriously.)

By Chop Chop

September 9, 2008 6:31 PM | Link to this

DOB,

A lot of people don’t have attention spans. I can’t even remember why I’m posting this.

McFann,

Thanks for the congrats. It’s nice to know that someone out there appreciates me appreciating me.

By Jamie in Richmond

September 9, 2008 6:33 PM | Link to this

Gayle

Let me guess….Hank Aaron didn’t hit for enough power, Dale Murphy was too mean, and Greg Maddux walked too many guys, and Corky Miller weighs 170 lbs?

By Mike

September 9, 2008 6:34 PM | Link to this

Read an article in the NY Post today that said CC is believed to have an interest in pitching for the Braves. Don’t know how legit it is, just throwing it out there.

By GeorgetownKid

September 9, 2008 6:39 PM | Link to this

So many of you are very angrily calling for Smotlz and Glavine to “retire already”, “disappear” and saying utterly absurd things like Smoltz trying to come back would be a “Farve like soap opera.”

Did you not see how dominating Smoltz was in his few starts this year? Do you not realize how proud of a man he is? As such, he is not going to come back next year if he cannot play up to his own standards.

Either you folks think we have internal options that are better than Smotlz - which we don’t - or you think we should sign 2-3 free agent pitchers who are as good as Smotlz. Free agent starting pitchers who are as good as Smoltz cost AT LEAST $13-$15 million per season.

I want Smotlz to come back. Not only have I been cheering for him for more than 2/3 of my life, but he will make us better. He will also cost FAR less than an equivalent free agent.

But don’t let me interupt your rants. I have to ask, do you actually bang on the table while typing such angry stuff? That is the mental picture you engender.

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 6:40 PM | Link to this

DJ: No, haven’t heard anything like that.

By Brian

September 9, 2008 6:49 PM | Link to this

“NEAR” the visitors dugout, excuse me! He’s been there EVERY single game for like three years now. DOB, you should be a comedian! He’s fat and bald if that’s clear to anyone. Whatever, I don’t care anymore

By McFann Ô

September 9, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this

Chop Chop—

Hey, no problamo, man!

Good stuff!

By nolie

September 9, 2008 6:56 PM | Link to this

Phew. Just finished watching all 5 seasons of The Wire back to back to etc. It is so layered that it merits several viewings The re-viewing convinced me that it is the best series I have ever seen, that I still hate it that Omar got offed, that Stringer,Omar and Bunk are my favorite characters and that I prefer the bluesy Blind Boys first season version of Down in the Hole the best.

By Lew

September 9, 2008 7:03 PM | Link to this

Mike-At this point in time and quite possibly even if he’s available to come back, YES, there are better options in our system.

Smoltz will not be a starter again. If he attempts to come back as a starter, I’m betting he will not only not be his old dominant self, but a mere shadow of himself, rarely able to go more than five innings -ever.

If he comes back as a reliever, I’m believing that Gonzo is a better option as closer, seeing as he will be completely back from the TJ surgery by Spring Training.

If Smoltz can come back at all (like someone said-perhaps a couple months into the season) lets see how he does in a set up role, before we start claiming he is the best option we have. Right now, there’s no way you can say that. I’m doubting it will ever be applicable in John’s situation again. The Man has had five surgeries on his arm and he will be 42 years old. Even Super Smoltz has his limitations. Get real.

By bravos2249

September 9, 2008 7:05 PM | Link to this

Jeff321

Well if your gonna complain about Glavine’s year don’t say he sucked before he got HURT. He has stated many, MANY times it was that CIN game in which he gave up a GS. Before that his era was below 3 and close to 2.

By Nevada Gambler

September 9, 2008 7:06 PM | Link to this

O’Brien:

I did read your article. Yesterday acutally. It was a very good article. I understand headlines are meant to draw attention, but it’s a headline I didn’t agree with. I’m talking the headline on the front page of AJC. I don’t know how many hits the Braves AJC home page gets, but for people that just glance at the pic and read the caption, it’s a little misleading. My beef is more with your editor than you.

Johnson is right, he needs to even out the production, and produce 1 more month’s worth of production.

It’s too bad the AJC is taking this route with Johnson. Is it a mirror of what the braves want? I’m talking keeping the kid for next year. Good kid and all, but too many lefties on this team already. Unless they’re gonna ship all the kids, I’d rather go with a right handed 2nd baseman, and the Braves have 2 other good ones.. My opinion would be different if they traded Tex for a right handed 1st baseman, but adding Kotch to the list of LH bats doesn’t help Johnson’s cause.

Perhaps the AJC is trying to build up Johnson’s hype for a trade? Hopefully. I’m certain the AJC plays a role, because they blocked all my other posts regarding the last one for 12 hours. It wasn’t until i left his name out did they finally let it go through.

By BostonBravesGirl

September 9, 2008 7:08 PM | Link to this

MetMan, okay, okay, I’ll give you Pap too but frankly he can say anything he wants if he keeps closing games like he has this year - he’s a maniac. And he did apologize for the Mariano trash.

I loved the years when Smoltz was the closer. He brought consistency and intensity to the weirdness that is closing a baseball game, like Papelbon and Rivera do.

By bravos2249

September 9, 2008 7:12 PM | Link to this

McFann

Let’s BOO Hurdle together….lol….if you remember why, I’m sure you do.

By Richard

September 9, 2008 7:14 PM | Link to this

The band is spelled “Okkervil River” David, and the album is “The Stand-Ins”, and its good (not “Black Sheep Boy” or “Stage Names” good, but pretty good).

By lakeman

September 9, 2008 7:18 PM | Link to this

give it up smoltz…the braves need to move on and not keep tired ole arms around…if you would stick for a salary that would be in line with your real worth, then maybe…but your ego will demand a fat contract and you will return what glavine and hampton have done…a lot of money down the drain for limited contributions…

By Jeff321

September 9, 2008 7:23 PM | Link to this

bravos2249

I just think Glavine is done dealing.. And any further pitching will just soil his legacy.

By BA

September 9, 2008 7:24 PM | Link to this

I’ll be happy next APRIL when Smoltz silences the retard demographic. DOB, tell him the real fans get it.

By McFann Ô

September 9, 2008 7:27 PM | Link to this

RBI #80!! FINALLY!

The AVG with RISP is up again! .284! That breaks the nasty 0-7 in that depot.

Whew! 1-0 Braves!

By bravos2249

September 9, 2008 7:27 PM | Link to this

I know it’s over done..BUT I LOVE how Mac just hit an rbi single vs the Rockies…hmm I wonder if he could do that in an ASG?

By Flashback

September 9, 2008 7:29 PM | Link to this

Do I want Smoltz back? Heck yeah I do! Do I want a repeat of this year when the entire rotation looks like a MASH unit forcing the Braves to throw a “pitcher of the week” out there? No way! I’m not going into every train wreck that has been the Braves this year, but when you don’t have 4 of your projected 5 starters by mid-season, you can kiss being competitive goodbye!

So here’s the bottom line. If you sign Smoltz for what he thinks in an uninsulting 12-13 mil and he comes back as Smoltz, all is well. If you sign him for that without an “out”, and he can’t pitch, you’re 12-13 mil in the hole and can’t go out and find someone comparable to fill his spot. So here you go again, praying to catch lightning in a bottle and sign a has been like Mark Redman because that’s what you can afford. Give Glavine 8 mil? Same story. If he’s back and good, great. If he stinks, you’ve blown 8 mil and have compounded your problems if he and Smoltz both are ineffective and guaranteed.

So those two alone could command 20 mil and be total repeats of this year. Wonder if Mark Redman knows anyone else from the scrap heap that will pitch for nothing?

So if Wren signs either of those guys to a guaranteed contract for the money they were making before their injuries, he’s rolling the dice BIG TIME!

I’m not a GM and I didn’t even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but if I were Wren, as DOB suggested, I give them incentive laden contracts. If they insist on guaranteed big money contracts, I let them walk and explain that we’ll miss them.

Hampton? There just ain’t no way you can sign all three. That’s three big question marks!

Closing thought on Smoltz. He is the actually the biggest question mark of the three. From all I’ve seen, read and heard, it ain’t Tommy John which has become almost routine. The shoulder is a different animal. Comeback from shoulder surgery at Smoltz’s age would almost be a miracle! But if anyone can do it, you have to think Smoltz is the one who could.

By McFann Ô

September 9, 2008 7:34 PM | Link to this

bravos2249—

Oooo! Good point! I love that, too!

Great job by Casey! Two-run double! 3-0 Braves!

By bravos2249

September 9, 2008 7:34 PM | Link to this

Jeff321 I didn’t say he would be that good again I said that before he got hurt he wasn’t bad. That’s the truth. I don’t know how the season would’ve panned out for him though.

By Jeff321

September 9, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this

CLUTCH

Mr. Kotchman knows how to hit, eh!

By Greg in TN

September 9, 2008 7:38 PM | Link to this

Nifty little opposite field double by Casey Kotchman there to plate Omar and B-Mac.

Folks, a reminder, the balloting for the Ford Frick award is still underway and ends September 30th. Go here to vote for Skip.

By nolie

September 9, 2008 7:38 PM | Link to this

Steve-OH, man, you GOT to stop putting the hoodoo on my boy Kala, LOLScoots

KC has a Kila K who had an incredible year in AAA Omaha this season. Are they brothers?

By BravesFanInRockies

September 9, 2008 7:43 PM | Link to this

Nevada Gambler,

The Braves and the AJC are two completely separate entities.

By northbeach Scott

September 9, 2008 7:43 PM | Link to this

Mike Regarding your 6:34, doubt CC or any other MLB player would speculate during a season/pennant race on where he would consider playing the next season. I am sure that was pure speculation by the Post to stir things up. That’s what they do for a living.

The Braves are not close enought to contending to sign Sabathia or Harden—just not going to happen. They are also extremely unlikely to sign Dunn or Burrell. They need so many other pieces are are not going to give up the draft picks for Type A free agents.

Although Wren and the Braves will never admit it, the Braves will not be contenders in 2009 and will make moves that will not hurt them in 2010 and 2011. They will want to enjoy the benefits a bottom five draft position will bring.

Do not drink the kool aide.

By McFann Ô

September 9, 2008 7:46 PM | Link to this

bravos2249 (sorry I somehow missed this one)—

Oh yeah, I remember why to boo Hurdle!

By northbeach Scott

September 9, 2008 7:48 PM | Link to this

Nice rally kill, Frenchy. Really enjoying your season.

By edward

September 9, 2008 7:49 PM | Link to this

Obviously Smoltz will pitch again by what DOB reported. Thanks for the info!! I am very happy about that. Now, the question is is he going to pitch starting or bullpen? I know he made statements about going back to the pen. Middle relief/closer duties? Gonzo is a pretty good closer and Smoltz would be perfect for either role. It would be a nice combo of Ohman/Smoltz/Gonzo. If Ohman stays that is. Now for Glavine. I can see him pitching effectively next year. It wasn’t like he had tommy john surgery. Funny how no one seems to remember that it wasn’t him leaving, he was kinda “shown” the door. Face it, except for a few players the Braves use and discard players regularly. Most of the great hitters didn’t start here and they didn’t end here either. That’s business for you! Would be nice to keep Hampton. He isn’t that bad, he just had a bit of bad luck. But I would be happy to get Sabathia in his place! Frenchy could be good trade bait……

By Nevada Gambler

September 9, 2008 7:53 PM | Link to this

So far so good for Infante today. Maybe the #2 hitter doing so well is a tribute to having Anderson in the leadoff spot, in which case, I scratch my head wondering why he wasn’t with us all along this year.

Another bloof by Cox, who I’m sure wanted the veteran in Kotsay instead of the rookie they already traded for (very good trade btw)….a rookie who Wren said was ready and would easily have been just as run producing as AJ’s .222 avg last year….productive because of his speed on the basepaths, excellent SB %, and allowing the meat of the order to see more fastballs.

Again…..bloof. Gave away Devine…..bloof.

Interesting to see what’s gonna happen in the offseason. Will they stick with Josh, or will they bring up Schaffer? Couple of hard decisions Wren has to make if you add the Johnson thing.

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 8:02 PM | Link to this

Smoltz story should be posted online before long. I filed it about 15 minutes ago. Just elaborating on what I wrote above….

Nolie, yes they are brothers, the Hawaii K’s

By Jeff321

September 9, 2008 8:03 PM | Link to this

Chipper Jones misses another one! Imagine my shock.

By Brian

September 9, 2008 8:05 PM | Link to this

I think the Mexican needs to eliminate the aweful hanging curve!

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 8:07 PM | Link to this

It’s too bad the AJC is taking this route with Johnson. Is it a mirror of what the braves want?…

Perhaps the AJC is trying to build up Johnson’s hype for a trade? Hopefully. I’m certain the AJC plays a role, because they blocked all my other posts regarding the last one for 12 hours. It wasn’t until i left his name out did they finally let it go through.Nevada Gambler

Hey N.G., pay no attention to those men in white coats parked in the van on the street in front of your house.

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 8:12 PM | Link to this

Nolie, I’d agree with everything you said in hour 6:56 p.m. post about The Wire. Except I like the Steve Earle, Tom Waits and Neville Brothers versions of the song as much as Blind Boys. They’re all different, all great. I’d have to go with Waits’ original if could take only one.

Omar getting killed, that hurt. Terrific character.

I’ve got three seasons of Arrested Development on DVD, and plan to do this winter with it as you did with that Wire viewing binge.

By northbeach Scott

September 9, 2008 8:12 PM | Link to this

Why is Frenchy playing? Another easy dribbler out. The Gwinett Braves are keeping a spot ready for you, Frenchy. Perhaps you can enjoy yucking it up with some of your loyal moronic followers.

Campillio, what a nice bunt. Really refreshing to see a player schooled in fundamentals.

By Visitors Dugout

September 9, 2008 8:16 PM | Link to this

For crying out loud, get off me, O’Brien!

By McFann Ô

September 9, 2008 8:30 PM | Link to this

Ugh…back to .292. Sheesh.

Lay off the first pitch, man!

Grove due to leadoff the top of the second in St. Louis. Stand by.

By mike

September 9, 2008 8:31 PM | Link to this

We all love him, but we all know it’s time for him to go…unless, he comes back as a reliever/closer. Same with Glavine…. Come on people, wake up!! No one lasts forever- even our Braves’ heroes. They just don’t have the strength/stamina/ability to go 7 innings anymore. I hope they enter the HOF together with Maddox….but we can’t waste dollars, or rebuilding time on rejuvenating the past. LETS GO BRAVES.

By JoeBrave

September 9, 2008 8:32 PM | Link to this

If this Team Re-signs Glavine,I am done!!! I have been a Braves fan all my life but enough is enough!!! CC Sabatthia,Burnett,Garland,trade for Paul Maholm,but in no wise re-sign, that weak armed joker!!!1

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 8:33 PM | Link to this

What is “bloof?”

By McFann Ô

September 9, 2008 8:34 PM | Link to this

Grove strikes out swinging. Still at .290.

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 8:38 PM | Link to this

By the way, the “vests” the Rockies are wearing, which they’ve worn for two or maybe three years now, are, in my opinion, the ugliest regular-season uniform in professional sports (I add the qualifier, because nothing is as ugly as those orange Mets and Orioles spring training jerseys; but are they still wearing those? I forget).

I mean, really, with that trim on the shoulders, the Rockies’ vests look like something from Star Trek

By Brian

September 9, 2008 8:39 PM | Link to this

DOB- You don’t fool me saying you listen to all those musicians. I think you’re an undercover Backstreet Boys and Britney fan!! Dude, gotta go, Smoltz is talkin’!

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this

Can’t get anything past you, Brian.

By bfan54

September 9, 2008 8:48 PM | Link to this

I don’t know if it makes good baseball sense - actually, it probably doesn’t - but I want Smoltz, Glavine, and Hampton all back on reasonable contracts next year. Of the three, TG has the least,if any gas, Smoltz, while the best competitor (ever?) by a country-mile has the worst arm, medically, and Hampton, who has the “youngest” arm, is still a project in some fashion (his ERA is still HIGH!). Why do I want these guys back? experience and track record. You have to take chances - and I know we did that last year on these same guys, and it killed us. But - whatcha gonna do? Smoltz will give you 110 percent,i.e., he’ll throw out everything that’s left in his arm in some capacity. Glavine has something to prove, and Hampton wants to finish his career as a winner. Go with these guys against all better judgment. Each is a proven veteran, year after year,(with some notable interruptions)and each brings skills, intelligence, inclination and a strong desire to win. (42 is the new 32! - LOL)

By McFann Ô

September 9, 2008 8:51 PM | Link to this

DOB—

I gotta agree with you on the Rockies’ uniforms. I cannot stand those things! Talk about playing in your PJs…

Oh, and the orange ST unis are ugly as sin as well.

By Jeff321

September 9, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this

DOB - Isn’t it the Padres that sport that camouflage jersey? IMO, that one is awful.

By Steve from OH

September 9, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this

Steve-OH, man, you GOT to stop putting the hoodoo on my boy Kala, LOL

Well, scoots, my hoodoo seems to be working because your boy’s got another homer tonight. I’ll help some more: KK, Gotay, Pete Orr, 12 baseballs and a can of chew for Jake Peavy. You’re welcome.

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 9:01 PM | Link to this

Jeff321, good call. Those camo tops the Padres wear are, indeed, unsightly. And worn too frequently. Break out those things once per year, no more.

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 9:09 PM | Link to this

Cook was 10-3 in 15 road starts before tonight, including 6-1 with a 2.98 ERA in his past eight.

By McFann Ô

September 9, 2008 9:11 PM | Link to this

Single for Grove! Up to .291.

By Savannah Guy

September 9, 2008 9:19 PM | Link to this

FBG, yes… incentives for Smoltzie and Glavine. Heavy incentives based on games pitched.

Wonder if they’d get creative and add stuff like ERA, SO, innings pitched, quality starts and such?

It was good to see Smoltz clarify and add context (pour water onto) the cascading ‘going elsewhere’ story with Joe and Chip. Can’t imagine him anywhere else… except maybe with Detroit for a year.

By kirknga

September 9, 2008 9:20 PM | Link to this

bfan54, I wouldn’t be surprised if all three are back next season. I see a scenario where the Braves sit back and balk at prices for the top tiers of starting pitchers.

What then will remain on the pitching market will not be a substantial upgrade over Glavine, Hampton, and Smoltz.. They will make better economic sense than what will be available in January and Feburary.

Expect to hear that the Braves are “taking a look” at this guy or that guy, but in the end expect the old guys will be back and the only addition to the starting staff to be some midlevel guy.

By Savannah Guy

September 9, 2008 9:22 PM | Link to this

The Pirates old retro pillbox caps were pretty horrid. Now, if they had been leopard skin…

By gayle

September 9, 2008 9:23 PM | Link to this

Oh I see Jamie, if I don’t agree with you, I am wrong? And then to make your point you try to criticize me.

When Smoltz was in the bullpen and a very effective closer, he told the team that if he was not brought back to the rotation he would sign elsewhere.

Are you so terribly star struck by Smoltz that such truths are so difficult to comprehend?

And if he is the team player that you and so many here think he is, he should have stayed in the bullpen because the Braves have been looking for an effective closer ever since.

Anyone here seen Dan Kolb lately? Bob Wickman? Chad Paranto? Joey Devine? Oscar Villareal? In deference to brevity, I will stop the list there, but I think you get my point.

Go ahead Jamie, if you’re so smart, tell me all of the great closers that the Braves have had since they gave into Smoltz and let him return to the starting rotation.

When you can’t, I suggest you keep your petty comments to yourself util you can say something with a bit more substance to it.

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 9:24 PM | Link to this

Rockies have 49 homers since break, while the Braves have 28 (the Mets have 61).

By McFann Ô

September 9, 2008 9:31 PM | Link to this

Aaaaaand now Brian’s down to .291.

Dude, why can’t you get on some kind of a roll, here? 1-4 isn’t really a “roll”…

And I’m not talkin’, ya know…3-4 with 7 RBI…I’m just sayin’ a 2-4 with 3 RBI woulda been nice.

But whatever. We’re winning, that’s the main thing. But ever since I booed Clint Hurdle, BMac’s gone 0-3…

Grove is due up third in the sixth. I’ll keep you edge-of-your-seat’ers posted.

By bobby

September 9, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

Stupidity! Regardless of what happens, taking Bennett out when he is pitching as well as he is makes no sense whatever.

By Goat Horns

September 9, 2008 9:36 PM | Link to this

Why is Blanco not coming in to bunt the runners over instead of pinchrunning?

He is obviously the only player that can bunt!

By Goat Horns

September 9, 2008 9:38 PM | Link to this

This is why we are so poor in one run games.

Bad move by Bobby once again!

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this

Tell you one thing: If pitchers get ahead in the count against Anderson, he’s pretty much toast, just about every time.

By McFann Ô

September 9, 2008 9:41 PM | Link to this

STUPID! I knew this would happen!

Grove 2-3…up to .293.

Boy, this race is going up and down more often than a yo-yo.

Just one Q…This “fatigue” thing…why isn’t Grove catching it? I swear…

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 9:44 PM | Link to this

After typing that, and to make sure I didn’t look foolish, I went to Stats Inc to check pitch-count stats on Josh.

He’s hitting .416 (8-for-19) after getting ahead 1-0, and .216 (8-for-37) after getting behind 1-0.

On 1-2 counts, he’s 1-for-15 with six strikeouts.

On 2-2, he’s 0-for-12 with six strikeouts….

NOW AS I TYPED THIS, Gonzo just gave up bomb to end his string of 39 consecutive saves converted, dating to 6/25/04 at Cincy, when he was a Pirates rookie.

By Percy James

September 9, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this

Sorry to pimp something here - but I found a recent interview with DOB that the faithful may like. houseofbravestalk.com

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 9:51 PM | Link to this

Bobby, regarding your 9:34: He probably didn’t want Hawpe facing Bennett, who’s allowed a .265 avg. vs lefty hitters (Ohman, .206). But I agree with you, needless move the way Bennett was pitching.

Regardless, Gonzalez was going to come in to pitch ninth with a lead, and he blew that baby sky-high.

By bravos2249

September 9, 2008 9:51 PM | Link to this

DOB

you do know the Padres wear those for the troops right?

By Jeff321

September 9, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this

Gonzo hasn’t looked as sharp lately.

Didn’t I read something about an injury? Then he still ended up pitching that night? What type of injury?

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this

Braves better not let Rockies get a lead, because Fuentes is waiting, and he’s been as close to unhittable as any pitcher in majors for past couple months.

By BravesFan79

September 9, 2008 9:53 PM | Link to this

GeorgetownKid September 9, 2008 6:39 :

WOW…. finally another fan with COMMON SENSE!!
Gayle and others who bash a true Warrior like Smoltz clearly know little about baseball, and little about LOYALTY!!

By BravesFan79

September 9, 2008 9:56 PM | Link to this

GeorgetownKid September 9, 2008 6:39 :

WOW…. finally another fan with COMMON SENSE!!
Gayle and others who bash a true Warrior like Smoltz clearly know little about baseball, and little about LOYALTY!!

By N Nine

September 9, 2008 9:57 PM | Link to this

Pujols just smacked a three run homer. Nice hit chipper, currently dead tie at .359

By McFann Ô

September 9, 2008 9:57 PM | Link to this

Oooo! Hey! Back to .293! And I think Chipper just tied with Albert!

C’mon, Escobar!!

By Brian

September 9, 2008 9:58 PM | Link to this

McFann- Hurdle gettin his payback!! Errors for Rocks!!

By Reality Fan

September 9, 2008 10:01 PM | Link to this

The website Minor League Ball has the 50 top pitching prospects in AAA and AA. Only one Brave is listed, Tommy Hanson. How can a Braves fan have any hope in rebuilding if there is only one pitching prospect on the farm?

Looks like the T.B. Rays might be the new Braves of the early 90’s. Their farm system appears to be loaded with pitching prospects.

By N Nine

September 9, 2008 10:03 PM | Link to this

major ouchi for kotchi

By Higgs boson

September 9, 2008 10:04 PM | Link to this

All this jibber-jabber wil be moot tomorrow. That is when Earth will cease to exist after the LHC creates a black hole. The Earth will be sucked into nothingness.

If we’d only had just one more WS! Thanks for nothing, BOBBY BOBBY Bobby bobby ÞòÞÞý …..

By ernesto

September 9, 2008 10:05 PM | Link to this

fly ball. c’mon all we needed was a freakin’ fly ball!!!!

That amigos, is this season in a very frustrating nut shell.

By McFann Ô

September 9, 2008 10:05 PM | Link to this

Oh crud!! Dangit! Darn darn darn!

This stinks really bad, folks! Can’t tell you how ticked-off I am…

Hey, if the Braves woulda cashed in there in the eighth, we wouldn’t be in this mess! If Gonzalez woulda gotten the save, we wouldn’t be in this mess!

And what’s with the camera man showing shots of Clint Hurdle every five seconds? Ugh…enough already!

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 10:06 PM | Link to this

In a span of nine days, Gonzalez has lost two games and blown a save in another (tonight), after not losing for over two years and not blowing a save in four years

By BA

September 9, 2008 10:09 PM | Link to this

Someone, in the words of the immortal Skip Caray, has been in the cooking sherry this evening.

By Steve from OH

September 9, 2008 10:09 PM | Link to this

Reality Fan:

You are misinformed. I’ll leave it at that.

By Goat Horns

September 9, 2008 10:11 PM | Link to this

This team is snakebit!

They seem to find a way to pull a loss out of the jaws of victory in a different way each night.

From KJ’s double bouncing over the wall and keeping us from victory the other night to Kotchman hitting a smash only see Tulowitski make a fantastic play to rob the Braves of victory.

The way this season is going stand by for another one run loss. Just don’t know exactly how it is going to happen yet.

By StingerSplash

September 9, 2008 10:12 PM | Link to this

Gonzo blows a save. Kotch grounds into an inning-ending DP with the winning run on third. This team is playing like its shoelaces are untied and someone keeps stepping on them.

By StingerSplash

September 9, 2008 10:15 PM | Link to this

DOB,

You were talking about maybe getting Jason Bay? He just rifled a two-run, two-out homer over The Monster in the bottom of the eighth. The more I watch this guy, the more I realize, he’s really, really good. If Josh Reddick (and remember that name) is ready by the middle of next summer, Bay may be on the shopping block.

By McFann Ô

September 9, 2008 10:15 PM | Link to this

Brian—

Yeah, totally. Now the Braves just gotta beat ‘im…

OH MY GOSH! Why is Blanco bunting? Bobby is the worst manager EVER!

Sorry. Saw an opening…

By Josh Anderson's mom

September 9, 2008 10:22 PM | Link to this

take that, DOB!

By Brian

September 9, 2008 10:22 PM | Link to this

McFann- Like I said- Hurdle is gettin his payback!!!

By cabravesfan

September 9, 2008 10:23 PM | Link to this

wow…of all the ways to win a game…finally a little luck goes the Braves way

By McFann ;Ô;

September 9, 2008 10:24 PM | Link to this

WALK OFF BALK!!!

How sweet is that!!! Never seen that before!

BRAVES WIN!! BRAVES WIN!! BRAVES WIN!!

By Steve from OH

September 9, 2008 10:25 PM | Link to this

Now there’s something you don’t see every day….

By Tomas

September 9, 2008 10:26 PM | Link to this

I can’t believe it. A balk. Hilarious.

By Jeff321

September 9, 2008 10:26 PM | Link to this

A little balk action, eh? Well, now I can give full attention to the Dodgers game.. Andruw Jones is batting 6th.

By Goat Horns

September 9, 2008 10:27 PM | Link to this

Wow!

A walk-off balk.

That sounds like a way the Braves would lose a game.

The Braves are not winning very much but at least they have not been boring.

By McFann ;Ô;

September 9, 2008 10:27 PM | Link to this

Holy cow!! Itake it back: Lou Pinnella is the WORST manager! I mean it!

Grove just bunted into a double-play! Why was he bunting? He should not have been bunting!

; D Night, all!

By N Nine

September 9, 2008 10:28 PM | Link to this

THIS JUST IN:

Sorry to inform but, Mets have beaten the NATS:The braves are officially eliminated from playoff contention. Sniper69 and Metroman you may enter the blog now.

By Steve from OH

September 9, 2008 10:29 PM | Link to this

Myrtle Beach won tonight, 6-4. Travis Jones and Ernesto Meija had homeruns. Mississippi lost, 6-3. Kala Kaaihue and Matt Young both homered. Todd Redmond got the loss, giving up 6 runs, 4 of them via grand slam.

Both series are tied 1-1. Looks like Tommy Hanson and Cole Rohrbough will be going tomorrow. Should be a couple of great games.

By McFann ;Ô;

September 9, 2008 10:29 PM | Link to this

Brian—

You said it!

By GeorgetownKid

September 9, 2008 10:29 PM | Link to this

BravesFan79

You are right. So many of the morons who love to complain on this blog have now turned their ill-informed ire on the unlikeliest of targets - John Smoltz.

This season has given Braves fans many things to be angry about, but the jagoffs who lament Smoltz’s attempt to pitch next season are truly suprising.

I will be VERY happy if Smoltzie plays next year. He’s my favorite pro athlete, a stand-up guy and a dominating pitcher who will play for much less than his market value.

But I suppose that is a concept that is lost on some here.

By Tomas

September 9, 2008 10:33 PM | Link to this

I think Gonzo is struggling a little bit, because he has been used a lot lately. Since he came back he hadn’t had a whole lot of chances until lately. Kotchman had a great game, and that DP in the ninth was just unlucky, Tulowitzkie or whatever his named is spelled like made a heck of a play. But like all year long this team is struggling holding a lead and getting the big hit. They won because a balk, but i would have bet that Infante wouldn’t have gotten a hit.

By Metropolitan Man

September 9, 2008 10:34 PM | Link to this

Thank you for that wonderful introduction N Nine. Now who wants to start with the METS play by play?

By Robert S

September 9, 2008 10:36 PM | Link to this

For what it’s worth, this win ensures the Braves won’t lose 100 games this season. If they go 10-7 the rest of the way, they’ll avoid 90 losses. Kinda looks like a tough task with the Mets and Phillies looming on the horizon.

But somehow, 73 wins suddenly seems respectable, given the way they’ve played…..

By The Mutts options

September 9, 2008 10:45 PM | Link to this

1. Choke it up before the season’s over (par for the course).

2. Realize how old and talentless they are when WHOEVER their opponent is blows them out in the first round.

3. Fire their manager for the twentieth time in five years.

4. Sign more old players with poor work ethics.

By Brian

September 9, 2008 10:46 PM | Link to this

MutMan- Seriously, GET A LIFE, DUDE!! Do they not have a blog over there in Mut land?

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 10:46 PM | Link to this

Only other time I’ve seen a balkoff win was when Rocker balked in the winning run against the Marlins in Florida. At least I think that’s how it ended. I know he balked in the winning run, and I think it was in the ninth. I’ll have to look that up.

Braves’ last balkoff win, they just informed me, was 1993, also vs. Florida.

By Steve from OH

September 9, 2008 10:50 PM | Link to this

Georgetownkid, I’m thinking you should start posting more, lol. But great post at 10:29 regardless.

By Oz

September 9, 2008 10:57 PM | Link to this

JUBILEE$ECSTACY…on t.b.bandwagon!!how bizarre is it the lesser of two evils(philly) have the exact score: 10-8?

By Metropolitan Man

September 9, 2008 10:58 PM | Link to this

Sorry Brian I am multi-talented and followed the NL east all night and blog on that METS site you want to ban me from also. Sorry your team has NO chance at the playoffs this year but attacking me only makes the siuation much more sweeter, I’m thick skinned. Wow, see what getting rid of a manager can do for a team (Willie is a great guy). Well I’m done for ht moment, dont get too cocky ther bloggers, the METS are on there way.

Yes, 2007 may have been the best thing that could have happened to the 2008 METS, a fuel no other team has right now called “erasing the past.”

LETS GO METS

By Oz

September 9, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this

…the spirit of ‘91 GROWS, baby!…RAYS arefirst to claim victory @ others ballyard!

By Roger

September 9, 2008 11:09 PM | Link to this

So Smoltz wants to stay a Brave if possible but won’t be able to show the Braves that he can throw off a mound until at least January. What happens in December when the arbitration deadline comes, and Smoltz is convinced he’ll be able to pitch, but the Braves are saying “not yet, not yet?” Will the Braves make a gentlemen’s agreement, like they’ve refused to do ever since Maddux and Boras burned them 5 years ago?

By GeorgetownKid

September 9, 2008 11:10 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH

Thanks man. To me, it’s kind of a cut-and-dried issue. Smoltz coming back gives us a real good player for not much money. But I guess the folks here prefer free agents who cost 3x more and might or might not be any better.

But what can you do. Disagreeing with idiots just raises your blood pressure.

By StingerSplash

September 9, 2008 11:13 PM | Link to this

In 1993, it was Deion Sanders who drew the balk against a Florida reliever.

By Metrosexualman

September 9, 2008 11:15 PM | Link to this

“erasing the past” = “remember when we wet the bed?”

By THIS JUST IN

September 9, 2008 11:22 PM | Link to this

Rob Neyer on the Braves:

Really? Is it really so critical for the Braves to bring back a 42-year-old power pitching coming off shoulder surgery?

As for fans agitating for $12 million in charity for a guy who’s a millionaire many times over … if I were the Braves, I would offer those fans a proposition: “If you come up with $6 million, we’ll come up with the other $6 million and exercise that $12 million option.” The Braves owe John Smoltz their respect, their gratitude and their honesty for his great service over these past 21 years. What they don’t owe him is $12 million. In fact, considering they’re in the midst of a rebuilding process and stuck in a division with two demonstrably better, more talented franchises, I would say they can’t afford to pay him another $12 million. Not without a little help from “some fans.”

By Mitchell

September 9, 2008 11:27 PM | Link to this

DOB!

You gotta help a blogger out…

I just wrote a big ol’ gem of a blog post and forgot to put my name and email and, it’s gone. Just like that.

But for the record that’s not why some of my previous blogs weren’t getting posted… or maybe it was. I don’t know.

Who am I? What makes me so special?

I’ll tell you what. My incredible but otherwise useless baseball memory bank.

I went to a game in ‘93, the best Braves team ever btw, Deion Sanders was on 3rd base in the 9th with the bases loaded and he distracted the pitcher and got him to balk. And the Braves won, obviously.

I’m not sayin’ that’s the last time the Braves won on a balk, or lost for that matter, all I’m sayin’ is that it was pretty badass.

By Chop Chop

September 9, 2008 11:36 PM | Link to this

Ric Flair got beat down by his daughter’s boyfriend.

Whatever happened to the Ric Flair that made Terry Funk say “I quit” in front of the wrestling world? Whatever happened to the Ric Flair who taught that young punk Sting a lesson? Whatever happened to the Ric Flair that made Space Mountain a disturbing mental image to millions of Americans?

I’m damn ashamed to be a fan of the Nature Boy right now. That old kiss-stealin’, wheelin’-dealin’, jet-flyin’, limousine-ridin’ son of gun can’t even handle his business anymore.

I’m crushed.

By Mitchell

September 9, 2008 11:36 PM | Link to this

And for the record on that Deion Sanders balk play, it was agaist the Marlins.

Somebody out there wanna test me on that? You better not because I have “How the West Was Won”, about the ‘93 Braves and their pennant race against the Giants of San Francisco who were in a pennant race… with us. We were ultimately victorious in that race, in case anybody forgot.

That was back when they made home videos for the fans. They don’t do that anymore, do they?

ps. Hey, Metropolitan Man… I don’t know if you have a dialogue going on with somebody but I would just like for you to go away before you embarrass yourself further. You obviously only have temporary confidence in your team. Nobody cares what you think about your Mets or our Braves.

By Steve from OH

September 9, 2008 11:39 PM | Link to this

Some people just don’t get it, do they? Under only the most extraordinary of circumstances will John Smoltz be making 12 million next year. Obviously Neyer doesn’t read the blog, because if he had, he would know that John Smoltz’s option for next season will not vest, so he will become a FREE AGENT. He will be making CONSIDERABLY less than 12 million next season, if he is even fit to play at all. So you guys would rather take a flier on Mike Hampton than a flier on John Smoltz for roughly the same amount of money? You’re telling me you wouldn’t sign John Smoltz for 2MM+incentives? Good call. I’m at least glad our GM has some brains.

I really like Neyer, too, but he must’ve taken the wrong meds or something today. That was one of the dumbest things I’ve ever read.

New York and Philadelphia’s farm systems are nonexistent, for what it’s worth. I wouldn’t call them demonstrably better, if we’re talking in scope of the next five years. Trust me, we’re going to be better over the next few years than people think we will be.

Sigh, Georgetownkid is right. Arguing with idiots makes the blood pressure go up.

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 11:44 PM | Link to this

It’s been a good run of recent giveaways at the ‘yard. Tim Hudson bobbledheads last week (was it last week?) and Bobby Cox bobblheads tonight, with Smoltz T-shirts tomorrow.

I’ve got quite the collection of giveaway bobbleheads at home from the past 14 years, including a Barry Bonds with an earring, a Skip Caray with a microphone, Beckett and A.J. Burnett as Marlins, and a great Maddux one as a Brave. Oh, and a Craig Counsell with arms raised, depicting winning run for Marlins in 1997 World Series.

Hey, don’t cost nothing. I give most of the stuff to my nephew, but keep a bunch of the caps we get, make for great lawnmowing caps. Got floppy hats from Pirates, Cubs, Braves, Marlins. And baseball caps from about 6-7 teams, ones I haven’t given away.

OK, that’s it. Don’t know why I felt compelled to share all that.

By uga-brave

September 9, 2008 11:44 PM | Link to this

DOB,

you are correct rocker dropped the ball while on the rubber.

let’s see prado vs. k.j. for the better part of a month.

i would assume the smoltz banter will go on constantly now.

we have some serial bunters on the blog. speaking of bunting we have luckily avoided DAX the original bunting blogger.

anyone else miss meaningful baseball?

anybody watch the new hbo series true blood? has some potential.

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 11:48 PM | Link to this

Josh Anderson’s Mom: And your boy’s big hit even came with two strikes! Touche.

BA: Yes, it does sound like McFann has been knocking back some sherry tonight, doesn’t it? Lot more sheeshes than usual. (Smile, McFann)

By Mitchell

September 9, 2008 11:49 PM | Link to this

Hey how ‘bout Josh Anderson’s big double in the 10th. That pitcher helped us out, and I’ll take it, but a big double by our boy Anderson should not go un-noticed. And it doesn’t, if this counts for anything that is. This little ol’ Braves blogger.

The name’s Mitchell. I’ve been thinking about changing it to Mizzo, that’s my nickname and de facto screen name usually. But at the moment it’s Mitchell.

Hey DOB, Mizzo has a thought…

I like your Neil Young pick, I’m ashamed to say I haven’t heard that song before (if I have, I didn’t know the name), but what about his former band? Buffalo Springfield Again is where it’s at as far as Mizzo’s concerned. And he know’s his stuff.

Buffalo Springfield Again and the Byrds “Live at the Royal Albert Hall 1971” which came out this year are incredible. I also recommend an old David Crosby album that recently got re-released, “If I Could Only Remember My Name”. That just about says it all.

No wait… Go Braves!

By David O'Brien

September 9, 2008 11:50 PM | Link to this

Yes, in fact, it was ‘93 when the Braves last won on a balk.

And it was 2000 when I saw Rocker balk in winning run in Miami. Ha. My aging mind remains a steel trap. (Math just ain’t my thing.)

By Oz

September 10, 2008 12:09 AM | Link to this

balk off win for bad news bravos=OPERATION CHAOS phaseII…believe it!

By NYJay

September 10, 2008 12:10 AM | Link to this

Steve from OH

NY has a nonexistent farm system? You must mean Philly.

Jon Niese, Brad Holt, Fernando Martinez, Daniel Murphy, Robert Parnell, Wilmer Flores, Mike Carp and Reese Havens are players that the Mets are banking on to be part of a youth movement with Reyes and Wright. Murphy has already been switched to 2B to replace Castillo and Havens has switched from 2B to Catcher.

Keep an eye on the Arizona fall league because if Niese, Havens and Murphy produce then they will make the team and the Mets will spend money on more pitching.

The idea that the mets are lacking legit mlb prospects is false.

By Metropolitan Man

September 10, 2008 12:12 AM | Link to this

Hey Mitchell, embarrassing is your teams record, embarrassing is claiming 1 ring in 14 chances, emarrassing is the name Mizzo having an alter ego named Mitchell. Good nite good sir.

LETS GO METS!

By flbravesgirl

September 10, 2008 12:13 AM | Link to this

They had Smoltz on Peachtree? Crud! ExtraInnings stuck me with the Rockies feed.

Going by today’s report, I’d say Smoltzie thinks he’ll be pitching next year.

By Oz

September 10, 2008 12:16 AM | Link to this

…i can remember Skip callin it, “free baseball”

By ColoradoBravesFan

September 10, 2008 12:26 AM | Link to this

Embarrassing is only making the playoffs one time in 20 chances…

By MetrosMom

September 10, 2008 12:27 AM | Link to this

Please excuse my son. He has IBS(irritable-bowle-syndrome), it also affects his thinking. I’ve already set up a counseler for him when his Mets choke again! Once again, I’m sorry for his inconveinance.

By kirknga

September 10, 2008 12:31 AM | Link to this

I agree with those who are calling out Neyer for not understanding the nature of Smoltz’s option.

That said, I would be surprised if his incentive ladden contract would not place him that price range. I think some might be taking a leap of faith that Smoltz will not only be able to return, but will also decide to take a drastic pay cut.

Smoltz, and Glavine for that matter, are not going to come back if they do not feel they can still contribute at a worthy level. They have too much pride for that. So their contracts will reflect this as well. The contracts will be fair in the sense they will include some protection for the Braves, but they will not be dirt cheap .

If the Braves aren’t going to pay premium prices for top tier talent, then it makes sense to bring Smoltz, Glavine, and Hampton back. Add an innings eater so you’ll have 3 starters that can pitch late into games and not wear out the pen, and that might be a solid, though not overwhelming rotation.

By Supes

September 10, 2008 12:44 AM | Link to this

Metro Man and all METS fans. I know deep down inside you are worried sick that another collapse is coming your way.

Your pen is crap, you have no closer and teams like the Nats are pushing you game in and game out.

Phillies will find a way to break your hearts once again.

It’ll be great for all of us Braves fans, as we won’t have to put up with your smug and nasty attitude.

Oh, and btw..you will always be the read headed step child of NY baseball, NO MATTER WHAT. Always second fiddle to the Yankees? In the words of the famous troll…drooler…how’s that taste?HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

By Supes

September 10, 2008 12:44 AM | Link to this

Metro Man and all METS fans. I know deep down inside you are worried sick that another collapse is coming your way.

Your pen is crap, you have no closer and teams like the Nats are pushing you game in and game out.

Phillies will find a way to break your hearts once again.

It’ll be great for all of us Braves fans, as we won’t have to put up with your smug and nasty attitude.

Oh, and btw..you will always be the red headed step child of NY baseball, NO MATTER WHAT. Always second fiddle to the Yankees? In the words of the famous troll…drooler…how’s that taste?HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

By fastasballs

September 10, 2008 12:49 AM | Link to this

The problem I see with Smoltz is will he be a reliever or a starter? I’m sure that question can’t be answered because nobody knows if he can pitch at all.

Regardless if I’m Wren & Smoltz appears on track to pitch I’d work a deal & I’m sure he will. I’d take a pass on Glavine. Smoltz was very effective in the short stint he did pitch this season & he didn’t run off for riches elsewhere when he could have like Glavine did. Also Glavine wasn’t that effective this season & was looking out of shape with the spare tire that appeared to be growing around his mid section.

I don’t envy the job that Wren has this offseason. Wren obviously sees 2009 as a go-for-it year, I don’t, but who the hell cares what I think. There just seems to be too many missing pieces. The rotation is up in the air with Jair being the only solid starter returning. Campillo has been good, but I really don’t see him any other than a 5th starter next season. Morton & JoJo are big questions.

What scares me is Wren won’t be able to sign big name free agents so he’ll trade off the farm for pitching & an outfielder or two. The farm system is strong, even after the Tex trade, but trading off the key players could spell doom for years to come. I’m excited about Gorkys, Owings, Hanson, Schafer, Freeman, Medlin, Rohrbough, Heyward, Flowers, & others. I just don’t want to see the farm gutted.

By jj

September 10, 2008 12:56 AM | Link to this

Bring Smoltz back as Mgr. Josh hits 300 but everyone still rats him, why? They did the same to Willie Harris and he had a better year than Frenchy. Sounds like Wren is not sure what direction he’s going to take with Braves. Will be the same damn BS again next year. Bet on it!!

By nfieldr

September 10, 2008 1:04 AM | Link to this

Brian, I know the guy behind the visitor’s dugout that you referenced. He is neither a writer nor a scout… just a long time Braves fan. He’s been sitting in those seats since Turner Field opened and he had comparable seats in the old Stadium.

By Brian

September 10, 2008 1:27 AM | Link to this

nfieldr- Thanks, because DOB thought I was crazy/stupid or both! I’ve seen that guy and wondered why the announcers never mentioned him. My grandad, who watches the Braves religiously, was the first to notice a few years ago. See ya

By nolie

September 10, 2008 4:07 AM | Link to this

I’ve got three seasons of Arrested Development on DVD, and plan to do this winter with it as you did with that Wire viewing binge.DOB

yeah another great show. I did that entie series marathon last winter. Being semi-retired I obviously have a lot more time for such than you do with your hectic schedule and I have DVDs like you have CDs.

By BravesFan79

September 10, 2008 5:56 AM | Link to this

Fastballs and others: Why CANT 2009 be a GO FOR it year!
When else will we have a hall of famer 3rd baseman, a allstar at catcher, and a HOFr in the Pen in Smoltz.
In fact with Smoltz, Ohman, Gonzo, Moylan in the pen our bullpen would be one of the best in baseball! Get a ACE, and get a good bat in the outfield… i like Jermaine Dye…. very streaky hitter..but when on hes FIRE!…perfect for playoff baseball.

I see no reason why this team cant hang around .500 the first half of next year, then make a run for it in the 2nd half by energizing the team with the returns of Smoltz and Hudson!

By ncscoots

September 10, 2008 6:25 AM | Link to this

nolie, I see DOB gave you the 411 on The Flyin’ Ka’aihues. Must be something in pineapple that gives you good plate discipline, the way those kids draw walks, LOL. Kala still has a couple of holes in his swing against righties, unfortunately; tends to make him whiff a little too much. But he be most fun to watch, brah, when contact he make. I hope the Braves keep him around, just because I’d like to see how he fares at AAA.

Neville Brothers version for me, a residue of the years I spent living on the Gulf, probably. A television series where even the theme music is classic, don’t get much better than that.

By BostonBravesGirl

September 10, 2008 6:56 AM | Link to this

On the subject of bobbleheads, the Lowell Spinners, the single-A farm team of the Sox, gave away Tommy Glavine bobble heads at a game earlier this year. He was wearing not a Braves uni or a Mets uni but a Billerica High School uni (his alma mater). How weird was that?

By TIMEFORCHANGE

September 10, 2008 7:11 AM | Link to this

Wren said after Smoltz’s surgery and I quote ” If John thinks he can pitch next season, there will be a contract for him”. I heard it with my own ears. Only John, not Glavine or Hampton but John Smoltz.

By Katie

September 10, 2008 7:34 AM | Link to this

I dont want Smoltz, Glavine or Hampton. I want fresh arms who can get the job done. Yes injury happens but not to the entire team. Wren set it up with all old players knowing that the team would be waiting on a Mike Hampton too. It was set up to fail and it did.

Put that with this dead lineup and we didnt have a chance. They need more then a outfield, they need a 2nd baseman and a short stop who can error less. Renteria should have never been traded. We needed his bat, his defense and his veteran pressense. Tex sure as hell didnt give us anything.

It takes a team to play the game, it takes team players to make the team.

By Kelly

September 10, 2008 7:47 AM | Link to this

Smoltz should be given a contract if hes able to pitch. Glavine should retire and Hampton should be shown the door. Smoltz will no longer command a 13 million salary though. Not if he wants to stay and try for one more world series ring. He has made his money. Hes in it for the ring now, not even the love of the game, its all about the ring now. He wants two of them.

By Lawrence Rubenstein

September 10, 2008 7:54 AM | Link to this

DOB; Your point about injuries to pitchers i well taken.I’m old enough to remember the four man rotation that Indians had with Feller,Lemon, Garcia & Wynn, or the Orioles with Palmer etc or the Dodgers with Koufax and Drysdale. They pitched every fourth day and started 30 plus games a year each, but they did not lift weights, all they did was run in the outfield on their off days. We can look at Maddux and Glavine as well(until this year) neither one a physical specimen, but very durable. Someone needs to rethink the entire training regimen of modern day pitchers.

By John

September 10, 2008 7:54 AM | Link to this

No more Smoltz, Glavine, Hampton, or “walking wounded” Chipper.

By nolie

September 10, 2008 8:55 AM | Link to this

BASEBALL AMERICA Article on Minor League Catchers Including FLOWERS

Grease up the scroll wheel guys

The Year Of The Catcher

Catching talent runs deep in minors this year

By Ben Badler September 9, 2008

Ideally, they would all come like Orioles catcher and 2008 Baseball America Minor League Player of the Year Matt Wieters: a plus-plus arm, athleticism, quickness, good blocking and receiving skills and an advanced bat that could be above-average at any position.

In reality, finding that right combination of arm strength, blocking skills, agility, mental capacity and the ability to hit well enough for the big leagues can be a frustrating, elusive task for many teams.

Carlos Santana Perhaps more so than any place on the diamond, catcher is the one position that requires the greatest work from both the scouting and player development staffs.

Scouts have to identify players who have the tools, the athleticism and mental acuity to play catcher, and the player development staff has to hone those skills, even though catchers often take longer to develop into big leaguers than their counterparts who play less demanding positions.

“The meat and potatoes are you have to be able to block the baseball, you have to be able to receive it and you have to be able to throw,” Braves catching coordinator Joe Breeden said. “Those three things are the three most important. I’m not saying it’s not important as far as tag plays, fielding bunts or pop-ups, but if you aren’t very good at those three right there, it’s going to be hard to proceed further.”

For many, catching begins with arm strength. An athletic catcher who moves around well behind the plate but has a 40 arm on the 20-80 scouting scale would give away enough runs on the basepaths that it would negate his positional value. While players can improve their throwing accuracy and sometimes improve their arm strength, most catchers have plenty of room for growth in their other defensive skills.

“The college player coming out is going to be a little more refined than the free agent Latin player that you sign at 16, 17 years old,” said Rangers farm director and former catcher Scott Servais, an 11-year big league veteran. “Receiving the ball and blocking the ball are probably the two things that take the longest time to develop and get consistent with.”

Servais is among the many disciples of Red Sox bullpen coach Gary Tuck, who has worked with Sandy Alomar Jr., Joe Girardi, Jorge Posada and now Jason Varitek, among others, in more than three decades of teaching.

“He is, in my opinion, the best catching instructor in the game today,” Servais said. “Basically everything I’ve learned and what I teach guys, whether I’m on the field or I’m in the position I’m in now in how I have our coaches teach our kids, comes off a lot of what he does.”

Player development officials don’t want to overwhelm young players with too much instruction, but with the defensive demands of catching, it’s often inevitable.

“There’s something our scouts have seen in them that made them a prospect,” Breeden said, “so I’m just going to evaluate that initially, unless they’re doing something that’s going to hurt them: their throwing mechanics like arm angle, arm slot or their footwork or their setup. Once that process happens, then I’ll go from there. With all catching prospects, the first thing I want to see is if the guy’s got an arm or not. Then his footwork, and I’m not talking about footwork as far as running speed. Most catchers aren’t fleet of foot, but they have good footwork.”

Lou Marson was among the more raw catchers when the Phillies drafted him as a 17-year-old in the fourth round of the 2004 draft. Marson, a star football player in high school in Arizona, never played for a travel team during the summer, instead using the season to get ready for football season.

Four years later, Marson has an advanced hitting approach, which helped him bat .314/.433/.416 with 68 walks and 70 strikeouts this year for Double-A Reading. Marson, 22, has developed into a good receiver and threw out 36 percent of basestealers this year thanks to work with catching coordinator Mike Compton, among others.

“We do a little different stuff every day—blocking, footwork, framing, receiving—everything,” Marson said. “So he comes in for four or five days and we try to do as much as we can without killing me, without wearing me out.”

Head Games

Aside from the physical package of tools, one common refrain from catchers and player-development officials is that the mental capacity required of a catcher is unlike the mental demands of any other position.

“You’re gonna have to have some toughness too, mental and physical because you take a beating back there,” Breeden said. “You’re locked in, dealing with the pitcher, dealing with the staff the whole game. You still have to be able to hit and your body’s got to be physically able to handle that, and mentally you have to be able get up there and go hit.”

The mental part of catching can manifest itself in several ways, ranging from the ability to use game theory in pitch selection, to dealing with the strengths and weaknesses of an entire pitching staff, to the mental toll that catching takes on a player over the course of a long season.

“I think it’s a position that has evolved from your traditional skill sets of always being the catcher with the strong arm,” said Diamondbacks farm director A.J. Hinch, who caught for seven big league seasons. “One thing that would be across the board is the mental capacity to handle the position. Very few catchers survive at the major league level without it. Even the guys that are defensively challenged, that are kind of more your offensive catchers, it’s not because they can’t run the game, it’s generally whether they have a lack of arm strength or maybe slower feet. Whatever their hiccup is, catchers have that awareness within the game that you don’t see at every other position.”

The sum total of all of the catcher’s mental chores requires what Servais refers to as catcher makeup.

“Catcher makeup is kind of a broad spectrum of things,” Servais said. “But it really is important, and I know that if you’re going to go out and evaluate players either in your system or other systems, does the player have that ability? Can he fight through an 0-for-20, and his team is still winning because he’s blocking the ball in the dirt in the eighth inning and he’s calling the right pitches in the seventh. All that stuff that contributes to winning that’s not specifically tied to offense.”

Gaining Converts

Teams are always on the lookout for quality young catchers, but their search isn’t restricted to the players who already wear a mask and shin guards. If a player can make the conversion to catcher from another position and stick there, his prospect value can shoot up. Not that it’s easily done.

“You’ve got to have arm strength,” Servais said. “Some guys’ arms do get stronger. When we’re looking at converting guys from other positions on the field to catcher, there’s a couple things you’re looking for. One is arm strength, and for me, personally, I would never convert a guy unless I was very comfortable and very confident that he could hit. Why would you convert somebody who couldn’t hit? There’s a lot of guys out there who can catch and never quite make it with the bat.”

Perhaps the most well-known catching convert is Russell Martin, a junior college third baseman before the Dodgers moved him to catcher. That worked out pretty well.

Last year the Dodgers converted third baseman/outfielder Carlos Santana into a backstop. After showing signs of life with the bat in his first season in 2006, Santana struggled to get to .223/.318/.370 in 86 games with low Class A Great Lakes. Sure, the Midwest League isn’t kind to hitters, but Santana also had a heaping new portion of defensive skills and responsibilities to master.

This season, Santana emerged as not just one of the best catching prospects, but one of baseball’s better overall prospects. Santana hit .323/.431/.563 in 99 games with 69 walks and 59 strikeouts in the high Class A California League, before the Dodgers traded him to the Indians to acquire third baseman Casey Blake. Despite moving to the high Class A Carolina League after the deal, Santana still was named the Cal League’s MVP.

Santana still has some improvements he needs to make behind the plate, but Martin is the perfect example of how much a player with the raw ability and aptitude can improve.

Martin, the reigning National League Gold Glove winner, threw out just 23 of 108 basestealers—a 21.3 percent success rate—and committed 31 passed balls in just 63 games in his first full season as a catcher.

Santana threw out 27 percent of basestealers this season, a figure that registers just below the minor league average of around 31 percent. The raw tools—a plus arm, good throwing mechanics, a quick release and athleticism—are all present, as they were for Martin.

“He hits with the barrel of the bat consistently,” Kinston manager Chris Tremie said. “He has good strike-zone discipline and he will hit for power—he definitely has power potential. He uses his lower half well, gets extension, good length in his swing. He’s short to the ball with good length.”

But Santana isn’t the only converted catcher who has put up big numbers at the plate. The Astros converted 21-year-old Koby Clemens from third base to catcher this season. In 109 games, Clemens batted .268/.369/.423 for high Class A Salem. Two others—Tyler Flowers (Braves) and Pablo Sandoval (Giants)—both had catching experience but only emerged as full-time catchers this season.

Sandoval was a catcher in the Rookie-level Arizona League in 2004, his first year in pro ball. The now 22-year-old Venezuelan moved to third base and then first base the next two seasons before splitting time at first base and catcher in 2007. Sandoval made the full-time switch to catcher this season, and he said he also switched to a heavier bat model.

His bat certainly packed plenty of punch when he hit .350/.394/.578 between high Class A San Jose and Double-A Connecticut, and then got off to a hot start upon a promotion to the big leagues. With the addition of Buster Posey, the fifth overall pick and one of three catchers taken in the top 10 picks this year, Sandoval’s future may be at a corner infield position.

Flowers was a catcher/first baseman at Chipola (Fla.) Junior College, but after he had knee surgery the Braves put him at first full time.

“Guys that you convert that are first basemen or third basemen, usually their hands are pretty good, and their feet work,” Breeden said. “So right away he should be able to receive it, he should be able to be a pretty good thrower, because your feet are working well and you’ve got arm strength. The big thing when you convert guys is they’ve got to be willing to do it; they’ve got to want to make that change. If not, it gets tough.”

Despite the move behind the plate, Flowers still hit like a first baseman this season—.288/.427/.494 with 98 walks and 102 strikeouts—for high Class A Myrtle Beach.

“His feet always work well and he has very strong hands that allow him to receive the ball very well,” Breeden said. “He got in better shape—not that he was out of shape—but he needed to be a little bit lighter to catch. Through catching all summer in Myrtle Beach and doing some extra work, he lost some weight that allowed his footwork to get a lot better. His arm got a lot stronger by long tossing every day and he’s a very intelligent kid. As far as retaining information and remembering things, calling a game, he’s not where I want him, but he’s learned a lot in one season. From the beginning of the year until now, he’s gotten a lot quicker, more accurate than what he was, blocking balls, getting in position better than he was earlier.”

Size Matters—Or Does It?

Neither Flowers nor Sandoval fits into the classic catcher body that some scouts believe is ideal. For years, the scouting community’s archetype for a catcher was a player between 5-foot-11 and 6-foot-1.

“For me, it’s a factor if you are a short guy and your feet don’t work well or if you’re a big guy and you’re feet don’t work well,” Breeden said. “I know short guys tend to maneuver a little bit better. I think it’s more individually, and you have to see. If a guy’s 6-foot-2, does he move around well? Does he have good hands? Do his feet move around well? (It’s that taken together) as opposed to one generalization.”

Of the 297 catchers since 1901 with at least 500 games caught in the big leagues, just 13—or four percent—have been 6-foot-4 or taller. Flowers (6-foot-4, 245 pounds at the start of the season), Wieters (6-foot-5, 230 pounds) and Yankees catcher Jesus Montero (6-foot-4, 225 pounds) are all trying to break that mold, one that Twins all-star Joe Mauer (6-foot-5) already has shattered.

“I don’t really subscribe to the theory that they have to fit all in that hole because I do think there are guys who are a little bit bigger,” Servais said. “I do think you have to be athletic, you’ve got to be able to be quick on your feet. Sometimes if you get too heavy, that’s not going to happen. But from a height standpoint, I don’t concern myself with that maybe as much as other people do.”

While Sandoval doesn’t have to worry about height, the 245 pounds he packs on to his 5-foot-11 frame are a concern for some scouts. Sandoval threw out an impressive 44 percent of basestealers, but it’s the wear and tear, lack of agility and soft hands that has some scouts wondering whether he would remain at catcher even if Posey were out of the picture.

Then there’s Brewers catcher Angel Salome, who is basically Sandoval if someone hammered him four inches into the ground. Salome doesn’t quite fit into any bucket of players. The first words out of any scout’s mouth when analyzing Sandoval are “unconventional” and “unorthodox,” based both on his hitting mechanics and his 5-foot-7, 200-pound frame. But those same scouts are usually quick to point out one thing: wherever he goes, he hits, including this season when he batted .360/.415/.559 in Double-A.

In the history of baseball, there has never been a big league catcher who is both 5-foot-7 or shorter and 200 pounds or more. The only other player in the history of the game with those physical measurements to play in the big leagues at all is Warren Newson, an outfielder with the Rangers and White Sox in the 1990s.

“If you look at him, he doesn’t do anything picture-perfect, but he has phenomenal hand-eye, a strong arm and he hits balls all over the field—sliders, fastballs, anything,” said one opposing Southern League manager. “You’ve got to pitch him in because he handles the ball out over the plate extremely well, with a lot of power the opposite way. That’s his strength for me. He doesn’t have that pretty looking swing, but he’s so strong and his hand-eye is so good that he’s just had a phenomenal year.”

Going Deep

Salome may not even be the best catcher in his own organization.

What makes the current crop of catching prospects special is the depth of minor league backstops who already have shown the ability to hit. Catchers often develop their offensive skills later in their careers, delaying their big league debuts and peak years. Yet the minor leagues are blessed right now with a multitude of catching prospets with advanced bats and the defensive tools to stick behind the plate.

Jonathan Lucroy (Brewers), J.P. Arencibia (Blue Jays) and Wilson Ramos (Twins) have above-average potential both at the plate and in the field, while Bryan Anderson (Cardinals), John Jaso (Rays) and Adam Moore (Mariners) could be dangerous offensive-minded catchers in the big leagues with a few more defensive improvements. And in the short-season leagues, catchers like the Rockies’ Wilin Rosario, the Nationals’ Derek Norris and the Phillies’ Travis D’Arnaud are emerging as top prospects in their leagues.

With Max Ramirez and Taylor Teagarden, the Rangers have a pair of talented young catchers knocking on the big league door, and 23-year-old Jarrod Saltalamacchia is finishing up his second big league season. Teagarden is the defensive stalwart with excellent blocking skills, a plus-plus arm and an above-average pop time of 1.9 seconds. Ramirez is the offensive-minded catcher who may end up moving off the position, given the Rangers’ situation and his need for overall defensive improvement.

“I know as part of developing catching, I try to put an ex-catcher at every level on the coaching staff, so normally that’s your manager or your hitting coach who has catching experience who’s there every day with the player,” Servais said.

Game-calling is often the last skill to develop for a catcher, especially because most college coaches call pitches rather than letting their catchers do so. While catching a major league pitching staff requires plenty of homework, handling those duties in the minors creates a few more wrinkles. In the minors, a catcher has to deal with constant pitcher turnover due to promotions. Then, if and when a catcher is finally rewarded with a promotion, he must learn a whole new pitching staff and a new league of hitters’ strengths and weaknesses.

“I start (teaching game-calling strategy) right away because it’s a process that needs to start from the beginning,” Breeden said. “The big thing is to be able to retain information, (for example) if a guy is able to retain information, remember what the guy did his last at-bat, remember what the guy did the last series, remember what he did last pitch. Pitch calling for me, what you see, that’s what you need to believe, instead of trying to trick people. You get hitters out three ways: front to back, which is changing speeds; you get them out in and out, which is moving the ball horizontally, and you get them out vertically, which is changing planes.”

It’s a lot for a young player to digest, and not all are able to remain at catcher. Some eventually move off the position and have productive big league careers, such as Carlos Delgado or Paul Konerko.

“It probably depends on their skill,” Hinch said. “It can come from an injury, it can come from the value of their bat at a different position and also what you have around them. How do you balance your team to get the most out of everybody?”

Others ditch their catcher’s mitts for different gloves but aren’t able to hit well enough at the big league level.

“If he started out as a catcher, he’s probably going to end up at a corner somewhere, at first base or third base,” Servais said. “He’s gonna have to really hit, swing the bat, first of all, to have a chance to do that.

“Second of all, I think the guy that just struggles catching the ball, I think we can work on a lot of things, you can help guys with their throwing, their footwork, their accuracy—(but) it’s really hard to teach somebody how to catch the ball. I think that’s kind of an innate thing that comes when you sign a player and he comes into your system. Most times he can either catch it or he can’t. The ability to receive pitches and help your pitchers, and if he struggles doing that, maybe he’s a little below-average. But if you really like the bat, (if) the guy might hit 20-25 home runs one day, you say OK, let’s move him to first base.”

By Howie from Poughkeepsie

September 10, 2008 8:59 AM | Link to this

The simple answer to the Glavine/Smoltz health issues are for both to accept an invitation to Spring Training as non-roster players with incentive laden contracts based on their making the team. Both players are intelligent and understand that the Braves have serious rebuilding to do if they will contend in 2009. Roster space on a 40 man roster thats filled with young players is precious. Assuming both players understand that the Braves can use roster space for them only if they able to pitch at a quality level, they should be agreeable to this approach. If not, then we have to question their desire to see the Braves improve. If things don’t work out with the Breaves in April, and they can pitch at a quality level, there should be no problem with them finding jobs elsewhere. I doubt tho that will be the result.

By brent a.

September 10, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this

Last night, the Rockies hit 3 home runs; yet, they also committed 3 errors, and had a pitcher balk home a run.

When you don’t play fundamentally sound baseball, it is difficult to win on the road.

And yes, the Rockies lost by 1 run.

Not proof of anything, but interesting to see play out.

Also, I remember the balkoff win against Florida in ‘93 (The Marlins’ and Rockies’ first year). I am pretty certain that it was Deion Sanders who scored the winning run.

By Shaun

September 10, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this

When you don’t play fundamentally sound baseball, it is difficult to win on the road.

When you don’t play fundamentally sound baseball, is it easy to win at home?

By McFann ;Ô;

September 10, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

DOB OK, that’s it. Don’t know why I felt compelled to share all that.

Yeah, c’mon. You do know this is a blog and not your diary, right?

; ) And your 11:48 made me laugh…Prob’ly because it’s so improbable.

By METS

September 10, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

Just give john some steroids like 70% of baseball,he will be ready then.

By METS

September 10, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

Just give john some steroids like 70% of baseball,he will be ready then.

By David O'Brien

September 10, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this

I see no reason why this team cant hang around .500 the first half of next year, then make a run for it in the 2nd half by energizing the team with the returns of Smoltz and Hudson!BravesFan79

Not to throw a wet blank on that enthusiasm, but that plan’s not very sound. You won’t know until at least Jan. or Feb. whether Smoltz has any real chance of coming back and holding up, and Hudson isn’t expected back until August, and that’s if he makes it back in 12 months, which isn’t a given for a plus-30 pitcher. Could be September (could also be late July, but that’s unlikely).

By brent a.

September 10, 2008 10:04 AM | Link to this

Shaun

good morning.

I didn’t say that.

By DAP

September 10, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this

DOB do you think greg norton will be back with the braves in 2009? does he seem to gel with the team well?

By Brian

September 10, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this

DOB- See, I’m not crazy

By Efrim

September 10, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this

BravesFan79

We have a full offseason ahead of us man. We’ll make some moves, but I think the rest of the division is going to make some moves as well. Everyone, except the Fish of course, will be trying to get better. We will probably have to wait until February to start sizing up our chances.

By Steve Perry

September 10, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this

I applaud Smoltzie’s spirit and perseverance, but he is finished physically.

The recovery rate for the type of surgery he had isn’t as good as Tommy John or Rotaor Cuff. Different beast.

He needs to focus on being well enough to wake up w/o pain and play golf.

By Shaun

September 10, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this

Twenty years ago, or 10 years ago, it was still a really big deal when a prominent pitcher had a season-ending and/or career-threatening arm injury.

DOB; Your point about injuries to pitchers i well taken.I’m old enough to remember the four man rotation that Indians had with Feller,Lemon, Garcia & Wynn, or the Orioles with Palmer etc or the Dodgers with Koufax and Drysdale. They pitched every fourth day and started 30 plus games a year each, but they did not lift weights, all they did was run in the outfield on their off days. We can look at Maddux and Glavine as well(until this year) neither one a physical specimen, but very durable. Someone needs to rethink the entire training regimen of modern day pitchers

I need to see some more evidence to draw any firm conclusions, but from what little evidence I see, it seems to me that it is simply not true that there are more pitching injuries or that pitchers are less durable these days.

I think the idea that pitchers are less durable and more injury prone these days is there for several reasons: more sports media, more major league pitchers (because of more teams and bigger staffs), surgery is more often an option these days than it was in the past (in the past a career could be over after an arm injury), everyone looks at the number of starts and innings of past pitchers and forgets how long most of them actually did not last compared to modern pitchers.

Take Bob Feller for instance. Everyone looks at the number of innings per season he pitched and the number of starts. What some fail to notice is that his last dominant season came at age 32. He failed to make more than 25 starts after age 34. Also, he missed three, almost four, seasons in his early 20s because of the war; which you would think would have saved his arm.

Also, look at the top 40 or so in career innings all-time. You would think if pitchers were more durable in the “good ol’ days” there would be a lot of pitchers from the distant past on that list. But there are quite a few that pitched the bulk of their careers after 1950 or 1960.

Also, one more thing: I don’t see that it’s less of a big deal these days when a prominent pitcher has a season-ending or a career-threatening arm injury. I think maybe it just gets lost in all the media hype surrounding everything these days. An injury doesn’t sound like big news compared to an alleged affair with a pop superstar.

By BravesFanInRockies

September 10, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

Shaun,

Following up on your 11:09 —

What do you think, if any, expansion may have also played on the number of injuries (if not the rate of injuries) to pitchers?

As you said, before it was possible to resurrect a career with surgery, one serious injury would end a career. When there were fewer teams (with 9- or 10-man pitching staffs), it could be that the pitchers who made it to the big leagues tended to be the healthy ones. A process of natural selection, if you will. Now, instead of there being a couple hundred pitchers at the major league level there may be 350 or more.

It could be that at least some of those extra pitchers would have never made it to the major league level in an earlier era. Hence what is perceived as a higher frequency of injury is in fact a consequence of a much larger pool of players.

By Lew

September 10, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this

Shaun makes several good points in his 11:09 post. I’m not old enough to remember the Indians’ rotation that was mentioned, but I definitely remember baseball when there were only 16 teams with four man rotations-there are now 30, or damn near double the teams, all of them pitching 5-6 starters. That right there should equate to a considerable increase in total pitching injuries. More pitchers =more injuries, QED.

Shaun is also correct about the average life expectancy of a ML pitcher then vs. now. Back then it was not even heard of for pitchers to pitch into their 40’s, much less to contemplate returning from the serious injury Smoltz just had corrected and to return to pitching at age 42-or even really have a legitimate chance of pulling off such a feat . Certainly NOT a Little Feat, that (don’t you just love the cheap musical references we throw in on the DOB/MIB blog?).

That being said, I’m not going to put money down on John’s odds for a successful return. I’ve seen time and again that The Bearded Icon is capable of doing that which would be impossible for a normal mortal, but now this makes five shoulder and elbow surgeries-the last described by Dr. Andrews as the worst case he has ever seen. John will be 42 next year, as well. I truly believe that anyone, John included (though I have not heard him claim a return to starting), who thinks he will return as a successful starter is so unlikely as to make those who believe it almost delusional. Maybe he can return as a set up man in the pen, but can he even come close to dominating like in the past? Realistically, I am highly skeptical.

Given the parameters under which the situation will operate, it would be foolish to commit a huge amount of $$$$$ to a guaranteed contract. Smoltzie himself has acknowledged this fact not long after his surgery. Should he be given the opportunity to retire as a Brave under his own timeline? Absolutely. However, let’s not get carried away and fantasize he will return as a dominant pitcher again. Let us also not offer a contract that is not heavily laden with whatever incentives are allowed by MLB. That way lies disaster. Just ask everyone about Hampton’s contract. How did THAT one go over? We can;t afford to make such large mistakes with the re-tooling program that faces our Braves this winter. To do so would be foolhardy in the extreme.

By Goodoleboy58

September 10, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this

Saw this from espn.com and figured I’d share:

The Double-A Southern League championship series began Monday between Mississippi and Carolina. Ka’aihue and Schafer combined for five hits and three runs scored, with Ka’aihue hitting his 15th home run of the season. Maybin singled and doubled and knocked in a run in the 5-4, 10-inning loss.

By Thrillhouse44

September 10, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this

Smoltz is on the Dan Patrick Show right now and he said the article that’s been talked about ad nauseum was taken out of context. The interview was originally supposed to be for Chop Talk and the writer has apparently apologized for the angle he took.

Sorry for stoking the fire yet again.

By Braveheart

September 10, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this

I don’t know if players get more injured these days than they used to ………. or if there is just more media attention because of ESPN and the internet. I think it is kind of like the shark attacks in 2001 or how everyone believes hurricanes are more vicious today than they used to be or how teachers are sleeping with their students more than they used to. It’s not really true but it seems that way because there are 24 hours of airtime to waste everyday on cable news and you have to talk about something all day everyday and everything you talk about must be screamed about in the most exaggerated, out of breath, angry, five alarm fire manner possible in order to get anyone to not click away on the remote after 10 seconds. .

I also think there are other factors at play, especially financial ones. If you got a guy like Chuck James, do you pretend he is not hurt or not hurt that bad because you don’t think he is that good and want to get every last bit of mediocre performance out of him while he is making the league minimum? So do you therefore delay getting an MRI done on him until the offseason before realizing you were making the kid pitch with a partially torn rotator cuff? Do you get your doctor to recommend rehab instead of surgery in the hopes that you can squeeze every last mediocre inning out of him while he is mediocre and dirt cheap to pay? If he stinks it up, do you just chalk it up to Chuck being a dumb, weak willed wimp who came up with a “sore arm” and was unable to adjust mechanically or with his stuff to the league when they adjusted to him?

Back in the day, I think that kind of stuff happened alot and thus suppressed alot of injuries from being revealed. And to some degree it clearly still does. How well you are protected by the team’s doctors often seems dependent upon the amount of years and money you have left on your contract or how much club control the team retains over your rights.

Alot of games seem to get played between the players, the agents, the team and the doctors. They all seem to be playing cloak and dagger games with each other and have been forever……

Players these days though seem to know Tommy John isn’t the end of the world ………. in fact, alot of them probably now see it as a way of actually gaining a mile or two with their fastball and making more money and having a longer career and that it’s better to have it now while you are young than to wait a few years of underperformance later to bounce back from something your old bones might not be as able to bounce back from ………. they also know that they will run the deep risk of blowing out another body part if they keep pitching while hurt or injured because of how much they will overcompensate for the original injury.

back in the day, Tommy John was too scary for people to even tempt their fate with ………… and before Tommy John, all you could really do was hide any injury and keep throwing and collecting checks until they stopped putting you out on the mound and stopped paying you.

These days, thanks to the union, agents and older, wiser teammates, players are less afraid and will fight back and be more cautious with their moneymakers and more assertive about demanding what is in their best interests than they historically have been. This often means more trips to the DL.

So I’m not sure how much more players are getting injured. I just think alot of them now know it is in their best career and financial interests to disclose their injuries whereas in the past it was in their best career and financial interests to shut their mouths. ESPN, Don Fehr, James Andrews, Tommy John, Scott Boras, the greedy owners, the crooked doctors and the Benjamin Franklins are probably more to blame for the increased disclosure and exposure of injuries.

There probably aren’t more injuries ………. just more disclosure of exposure of them.

By Steve from OH

September 10, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

BFIR, you make a really good point in your 11:23(Shaun, as always, makes a good point as well). I would just like to add that the game has changed since the fifties and sixties: it is no longer prudent (or realistic) to try and subject your pitchers to that kind of stress. Why run a guy out in the ninth with a tired arm when you’ve got a fresh guy in the ‘pen ready to come in and start throwing 97? The entire concept of relief pitching didn’t come about until the fifties or so, and so in all reality (during that time), a tired Bob Feller was a better choice than your relief pitcher. In the modern game, this isn’t typically the case, and this is why it’s silly to needlessly risk a high-dollar investment like this. Would a pitcher be able to throw more innings with better conditioning from Rookie-level on up? Possibly. Is this really a good idea? Probably not.

This isn’t so much related to the pitcher usage discussion as the pitcher conditioning discussion, but I though I’d throw it in there anyway.

By Shaun

September 10, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies, I think expansion obviously leads to more major league pitchers and more pitchers mean more injuries to pitchers. But I’d be surprised, if someone were to study the issue in detail, if it was discovered that the rate of serious injuries to pitchers has gone up over time.

Also, to expand on a point I made: Surgery probably wasn’t an option, in years past, for many arm ailments. Think about how injuries are found these days. A pitcher has an arm twinge, sometimes it’s not really painful (i.e., Hudson), and an x-ray or something finds an issue that needs to be surgically repaired. A few decades ago, the pitcher would either pitch through the pain or would sit for a while and the issue would go without repair. That injury may have gotten worse and worse until the pitcher’s career is over at age 32. But now, a doctor finds the issue right away and is taken care of.

By NYJay

September 10, 2008 12:24 PM | Link to this

I find it funny how some Brave fans are forecasting the Mets demise when you have the dubious distinction of being eliminated before the San Francisco Giants who have one pitcher and no lineup and no bullpen, basically the GIANTS HAVE ONE MLB PLAYER, Yet they stayed in the game longer than the Braves.

So before you get all excited about the demise of a team that is leading the division and a half game back in the wild card, you should put together a team that can be in playoff contention longer than San Fr…err…I mean…Tim Lincecum.

By Goodoleboy58

September 10, 2008 12:28 PM | Link to this

In little league I was balked in from 3rd base by the tubby pitcher from the ROC-Marlins… So I can relate ;)

By Steve from OH

September 10, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this

Shaun, great point at 12:13. In 1965, Hudson would still be pitching, in all probability shortening his career.

By David O'Brien

September 10, 2008 12:36 PM | Link to this

DAP, Norton fits in well in clubhouse and has done a very good job in the pinch-hitting role. it’s just when he’s been forced to play a position that he’s struggled. If the Braves can fill other needs and have strong backups and earmark him for pinch-hitting and only infrequent appearances in the field, I could see him returning.

By Lew

September 10, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

NYJay-And we should care about the Mets why? Because they mean something to you? Come to think of it, why should we care about you or what you think, anyway? Why are you even here? Come back and tell us how great the Mets are if and when they actually win something. Then maybe we will care. Probably not, but you could try.

Let’ s see now. In the three seasons the Braves have not won a Division Title in the past 18 seasons, the Mets have one one Division and won one post season series then they were humiliated by the team with the worst record in the playoffs-a barely .500 team. Then they experienced the greatest collapse in ML history. Wow. We are impressed. So, apparently are you. Win something significant and then beat your chest and grab your crotch. We won’t be impressed, but it will likely make you feel worthy. We all need something to hold unto. With us it’s continual success for a decade and a half. For you it’s your crotch. Go figure.

By Steve from OH

September 10, 2008 12:41 PM | Link to this

NY Jay, I’ll be brief:

Heyward>F. Martinez

Hanson> Niese

Hanson> Parnell

Wilmer Flores is in the Gulf Coast League, for crying out loud. When Jim Callis has to go to the GCL to find your best prospect, something is wrong with your system. He may end up being good, but it’s a long, long way off.

Atlanta’s system, with the exception of AAA (which isn’t really important because our roster is so young) is superior to New York’s from top to bottom.

I would also like to point out that Charlie Morton was the International League’s pitching prospect of the year (or something like that; DOB posted it in a recent blog). While it may be true that NY’s system is better that it appears, it is still not as good as Atlanta’s.

Fun Fact: Jose Reyes (your leadoff hitter) has a career .336 OBP.

By David O'Brien

September 10, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

Not to dismiss the many folks who’ve opined to the contrary on the ol’ blog, but here’s a couple ofreports I got on the subject when i googled “Rise in major league injuries?” :

Posted on: 10/30/2001

Is Sports Medicine Striking Out? The Rise of Injuries in Major League Baseball

From a spectator standpoint, baseball may have lost some of its luster. But it still has more participants than any other sport in the United States. Given the wide popularity of the sport, these authors wanted to examine trends in baseball injuries. They looked to Major League Baseball, where sports medicine is most advanced.

In Major League Baseball, statistics are as much a part of the game as bats and gloves. One statistic kept by every team is the “disabled list.” This is a list of athletes who are unable to play due to an injury that’s been certified by the team physician. Once a player is on the list, he cannot play for at least 15 days. His injury may keep him on the list—and out of the game—a lot longer. In the meantime, the coach can temporarily replace the injured player to keep 25 active players on the team roster. The authors looked at disabled lists from 1989 to 1999.

They expected that improvements in sports medicine and training would result in fewer baseball injuries over time. The opposite was true. The number of players on the disabled list actually grew over the 11-year period. When the authors compared the first three years to the last three years, they found that the number of injuries had shot up 40 percent.

This increase could only be partially explained by the fact that more teams (and thus more players) had joined the league. In addition, the number of days players spent on the disabled list went up 53 percent. This increase could not be accounted for by new medical tools that allow doctors to find previously undetected injuries. The new injuries in pitchers tended to be major, resulting in about 55 missed days per injury.

Of all the positions, pitchers were injured the most, accounting for about half of the reported injuries. They also accounted for over half of the total time lost to injuries. Over the 11-year period, both the number of pitchers injured and the number of days their injuries kept them from the game went up. This was true for both starting and relief pitchers. Third basemen also saw a rise in injuries. Shoulder injuries most often kept players out of the game, followed by elbow injuries. Only elbow injuries showed a consistent increase over the study period.

The authors could not explain why injuries have increased in Major League Baseball. It’s possible that sports medicine is not serving athletes as well as expected. It’s also possible that sports medicine has managed to control certain kinds of injuries while other types of injuries are still on the rise. Whatever the reason, this is a trend that deserves further attention.

References: Stan Conte, PT, ATC, et al. Disability Days in Major League Baseball. In The American Journal of Sports Medicine. July/August 2001. Vol. 29. No. 4. Pp. 431-436.

The section below is part of a bigger story that Buster Olney wrote in The New York Times in 2002:

An Elbow’s Enemy

Mets pitcher Al Leiter recalled a conversation with a former teammate. “I think I was doing my usual complaining about why the hitters are so much stronger and hit all these home runs and are on steroids,” he said. “And Todd Zeile proceeds to defend the hitters and say, `What are you trying to tell me, the pitchers aren’t on it?’ “

Shapiro says he believes supplement use is related to an increasing number of elbow injuries in pitchers because there is extra torque on the joint created by additional body mass. Shapiro’s theory is supported by Dr. James Andrews, who is alarmed by the types of injuries he is seeing in baseball players — beginning with teenagers and into the majors — as well as the number of injuries.

Andrews cannot say for sure if the rise in injuries is related to supplement use, but he has strong suspicions. Creatine can be bought over the counter and is viewed as more benign than steroids or human growth hormone — performance-enhancing drugs he is certain some players are taking. But Andrews calls the use of creatine worrisome because it increases muscle size by retaining fluid and causing dehydration. Andrews says he has seen more incidents of explosive injuries like tendon ruptures, in which the muscle literally strips away from the bone, and a rise in cases of patellar tendinitis in the knee.

This below is the from a New York Daily News story published less than two weeks ago:

Throughout the corridors of power, in the trainer’s rooms and clubhouses, baseball people are puzzled about a recent rise in injuries, especially because a spike in trips to the disabled list over the last two years comes at a time when sports medicine is better than ever and most players pay obsessive attention to conditioning.

Some players and executives blame fallout from baseball’s stricter testing for performance-enhancing drugs and amphetamines. Others say teams are simply quicker to put players, especially valuable young stars, on the disabled list as a form of preventative medicine. Some executives refuse to talk about the subject at all.

There is a plethora of other potential reasons, perhaps one for each of the 26 bones in the foot: It’s a cycle or an overemphasis by players on strength rather than flexibility; better medicine diagnosing more injuries or too much babying of young players; multiyear contracts mean that players don’t have to play hurt to be sure they get a decent contract for next season. Whatever the case, there have been 498 trips to the disabled list already this season, according to Major League Baseball figures, 18 more than all of 2007. The Mets (23) and Yankees (21) are among the leaders in baseball. Last season was the high for injuries this decade, meaning Hank Steinbrenner is not the only baseball bigwig dwelling on injuries now. “It’s progressing really at an alarming rate and now you’re expecting injuries to happen every day,” says Dodgers general manager Ned Colletti, whose team has used the DL 21 times this season. “We’ve certainly noticed. It’s almost commonplace that guys are getting hurt.”

Baseball adopted stricter drug testing before the 2006 season, but there were only 413 DL trips that year, the second-fewest since 2000. It jumped the next year, making some wonder if there is a connection. After all, “your reparative powers are markedly improved by performance-enhancers,” says Dr. Mark Klion, an orthopedic surgeon and sports medicine expert from Mt. Sinai. “When you get a slight tweak in the elbow, you definitely heal faster than the person who’s not on it. If you take that stuff away, you may see more injuries.”

“As those chemicals get out of the game, it’s not surprising there’s an initial leap in injuries,” says Thad Levine, the assistant GM of the Texas Rangers. “It’s no longer a crutch for some as their bodies get re-acclimated. Hopefully, what we’re seeing now is the worst of it and it will correct and be the end of the performance-enhancing era.

Shaun, others: Feel free to pick apart all these folks’ opinions and explain why you’re right and they’re wrong, and why the rise in injuries is just a figment of our imagination.

By Lew

September 10, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH-Now let’s not be so hard on Jose Reyes. He had two hits last night which gives him 3 in his last 26 AB over his last six games. He’s on a streak and SO clutch under pressure. If you don’t believe me, go look at his stats from this time last year. Oh wait . That’s right, He sucked then, too. Oh well. And here I thought Glavine was to blame for The Collapse. That’s what I get for listening to Anders’ evaluation.

By Steve from OH

September 10, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this

The last article DOB posted kind of supported the previous analyses in a way. But his post did bring up a good point: steroids are definitely something to take into consideration when comparing the present era and the late fifties/early sixties. I’d be willing to bet that at least part of that 53% increase was due to steroid use (or a steroid user’s body breaking down). Good stuff, though. Something to think about. I don’t think we can ever be sure of the real truth in this case.

By keylargo

September 10, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

Here is another article on the Marlins new stadiun. It is so complicated, that I will not believe the stadium will be finished and ready to play in for five years minimum.

In the mean time you can count on the Marlins payroll staying about the same for next year meaning that anyone on the roster is available for the right combination of prospects, players not yet ready for arbitration, and cash.

Note that the stadium is on the old Orange Bowl site which is in Little Havana.

Here is the status:

The Florida Marlins took a major stride Tuesday in their lengthy quest for a permanent South Florida home, when a judge ruled that a new ballpark funded primarily through tax dollars serves the public good.

With Miami-Dade Circuit Court Judge Jeri Beth Cohen’s ruling, the county and Marlins said they will move ahead with construction of the $515 million, 37,000-seat, retractable-roof stadium in Little Havana.

”This is the one we’ve been waiting for,” said Marlins President David Samson. “It’s a complete victory. It took a long time.”

County Mayor Carlos Alvarez on Tuesday restated what he told the court during his deposition: Building the ballpark will revitalize the neighborhood and create much-needed jobs.

”When the economy is hurting, it means thousands of jobs — good-paying construction jobs — for people who need them now,” he said.

The team and government are going forward even as one of billionaire auto dealer Norman Braman’s seven lawsuit counts has yet to be adjudged. They believe that issue — involving the complex financing that set the stadium and a string of other public works projects in motion — would not affect the new ballpark eyed for the former Orange Bowl site.

Braman took minor solace in Cohen’s 41-page ruling. Though Cohen found that the stadium meets the key ”public purpose” test, she also gave credence to his belief that the stadium can be viewed as a ”sweet deal” for the Marlins.

Cohen noted the county didn’t do an economic impact study for the Little Havana area, said the site has no link to downtown, noted the team did not have to make its financials public even though almost $400 million in public money would be spent, and agreed with Braman that clear proof does not exist that a new stadium would stimulate the neighborhood.

”It reminds me of a football game that you lose when all the statistics are on your side,” Braman said after the ruling. “It’s not what we believe the constitution of the state of Florida states, and we will appeal the judge’s decision to the Supreme Court.”

Replied Samson: “Let’s cut right through it. The trial court’s job is to apply the law — not to make the law.”

FORCE OF LAW

Ultimately, Cohen said the case law was unshakable, and that she could not counter 39 years of rulings that backed the Marlins, the county and the city of Miami’s contention that the public would benefit from a new stadium.

” … The law in Florida is clear that retaining a professional baseball team in Miami satisfies a paramount public purpose,” the judge wrote.

Braman sued the county, Miami and the Marlins over a smattering of issues, chief among them the claim that the use of $382 million in tourist tax dollars to build a private entity a ballpark does not serve a public purpose.

His bigger concern was that the public did not get a vote, through referendum, on the spending — part of a larger multibillion-dollar megaplan for Miami. Government leaders countered that the public elected the politicians who approved the development blueprint.

Tuesday’s ruling continued a string of losses for Braman, with all six lawsuit counts adjudged so far going against him.

Still on the table is a ruling from Cohen on the sole remaining count: whether the county can use Community Redevelopment Agency dollars to pay off a $484 million construction debt at the Adrienne Arsht Center for the Performing Arts.

Though that financing, on the surface, has no ties to building a ballpark, it’s all part of Miami’s most expansive public works plan in decades — the $3 billion deal to build a port tunnel, a park at Bicentennial, the ballpark and a streetcar system, and pay off the Arsht Center debt.

MORE MONEY

Paying off the debt frees up another pot of money to help fund the ballpark, Braman contends, noting that the team signed an agreement linking the arts center payoff and the ballpark.

The county argues it could build the stadium regardless of the arts center debt.

The agreement calls for the Marlins to put $120 million toward the stadium, and also repay the county another $35 million in “rent payments.”

Braman believes that if he wins on the last count, the court could potentially order a referendum on the spending at the Arsht Center. That, he believes, could doom the stadium.

The other side sees that last issue differently.

The ballpark, they said, will be financed with an array of tourist and convention-development and sports-franchise taxes, plus a $50 million bond voters approved in 2004 for Orange Bowl renovations — but no CRA funds.

Though Alvarez and County Manager George Burgess say there’s no link between the final ruling and the stadium, they’ve avoided answering how the Arsht Center debt would be paid off — if the judge rules it’s illegal.

Cohen said she’ll make her decision after the Supreme Court rules on a similar case from Escambia County. Initially, the court decided property tax money couldn’t be used to pay off bond debt without a public vote, a ruling that could have resonance in the Braman case.

The court then decided to rehear a motion and hasn’t issued a final ruling. There is no sense when Cohen will decide this issue.

Braman’s hope now is that, with a favorable ruling in that count, a political change of will would doom the stadium.

But Tuesday, the government was focused on the ruling at hand.

”We were quite confident that was how this ruling was going to come down,” Burgess said Tuesday at County Hall.

Miami Mayor Manny Diaz said the still-pending count of Braman’s suit will not hold back construction, though he couldn’t pinpoint the date for a stadium groundbreaking.

The city will move ”as fast as we humanly, physically, possibly can,” Diaz said.

The Marlins are pushing ahead with architectural drawings and finalizing arrangements with a contractor, all in the hopes of opening the 2011 season in the new park.

If the Marlins hope to break ground this year, county commissioners must finalize construction, management and other agreements; and city leaders need to approve land-platting and permits.

But that was the last thing on Marlins owner Jeffrey Loria’s mind Tuesday, shortly before his team took the field against National League rival Philadelphia.

The team said a retractable roof stadium would draw crowds otherwise driven away by South Florida’s steamy, rainy weather. One midday game last week drew fewer than 600 fans in their seats for the first pitch.

A new stadium would pour concession and skybox proceeds into the bottom line of a team that has won two World Series but has had among the lowest payrolls and attendance in baseball.

”We look forward to the Marlins playing in the new ballpark for generations to come,” Loria said in a prepared statement.

By Goodoleboy58

September 10, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this

NY JAY-

If the Giants only Major League Player is Lincecum then how come they have more then 16 wins?

By Steve from OH

September 10, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this

Lew, I wasn’t saying Reyes was a bad player, just saying he might be a little bit overrated. But to say the Mets have a good young core in two players (Reyes and Wright) is a bit of an exaggeration; two position playes don’t make for the “core” of any team. They’ve got to go out and buy what they need, as usual. Although I do think Wright is a really doggone good player.

By NYJay

September 10, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this

LEW

You must be some kind of idiot. The Mets have always sucked. Big Deal. No surprise there. The Braves have had 15 consecutive chances to win a world series.

15 to get 1? Do the freakn math you dimwit. Thats is success? Only in Atlanta where championships arrive once every…no only once ever. The only team your city truly loves is the Georgia Bulldogs.

So LEW hang your hat on the 15 for 1 you have for your entire lifetime. While my City has celebrated Championships in every sport but Basketball.

HA!!! No wonder you cats love stomping the Mets its the only thing in NY that you have actually beaten at anything. EVER.

In 16 playoff appearances you got ONE!!! In 7 Playoff appearances the Mets got TWO!!

So take your 18 year logic to someone that doesn’t have a brain.

Jeff Francouer isn’t better than Fernando Tatis, Escobar isn’t better than Reyes, Hudson isn’t better than Santana, and LEW GO FIGURE THIS:

The Braves are currently 25th out of 30. The Mets are 6th.

But hey, hang your hat on The Mets losing to the Cardinals and last years collaspe because its all you got left of baseball anyway.

Live for it like I live for those years when you bashed the Mets as the team of the 90’s only to have Jim Leyritz destroy your legacy forever.

Bottomline, the Mets are the redheaded step child of the Yankees and yet you don’t have more WS wins than them and when your dynasty was on the line YOU CHOKED time and time again.

So don’t talk down to me like I can’t smell you for what you are.

By BravesFanInRockies

September 10, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Guess when major leaguers relied solely on greenies and booze they were healthier!

By NYJay

September 10, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH

Heyward in some circles was rated ahead of the Cubs G. Soto and Hanson was haead of Cueto for crying out loud.

If you really believe that then your GM should be fired for not having them on your roster when you desperately needed them.

Wilmer Flores is 17 and just played his first year and is being talked sbout as Miguel Cabrera. Flores is out of the Mets Dominican Academy so this season was the first year scouts saw him. You’ll learn more about him as time goes on.

By McFann ;Ô;

September 10, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

NYJay The Braves have had 15 consecutive chances to win a world series. 15 to get 1? Do the freakn math you dimwit.

No, YOU do the math. The Braves won the Division 14 years in a row…dimwit.

By DAP

September 10, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

Ny Jay The Mets have always sucked. Big Deal. No surprise there.

cant argue with you there. but i dont get your logic…the mets are better than the braves because they suck more? hm…must be a new york thing.

By Shaun

September 10, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this

DOB, I don’t know if I’m right or wrong. I’m just saying on the surface it doesn’t appear to be true that pitchers are less durable than they were in the past.

Here is something these studies and opinions don’t seem to mention that I’ve touched on: It’s easier today to locate injuries. If a player gets hurt now days, he goes on the DL and the injury is taken care of with either rest, treatment or surgery. In years past, maybe an injury doesn’t get discovered or at least doesn’t get discovered enough to know how to treat or repair it with surgery.

Also, I don’t know if this is true or not, but it seems teams use the DL more slyly than in years past. If a fringe-type pitcher is struggling, a team doctor will “find” that he has a sore arm and needs rest. I don’t know but it seems like this happens more often these days than in the past. Could be wrong about that.

By keylargo

September 10, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

BravesFaninRockies

Guess when major leaguers relied solely on greenies and booze they were healthier!

You’re probably right with that statement. You have to work really hard, long term to completely screw up your body with with “booze and greenies” but I bet the time frame is a lot shorter on steroids.

(I’m no MD, so I don’t want to have to read any articles from JAMA )

By StingerSplash

September 10, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this

Chop Chop,

Flair ain’t no spring chicken no more. This ain’t the same Flair who used to beat Ricky Steamboat from pillar to post (a Gordon Solie reference, RIP for the best wrestling broadcaster ever) in their Mid-Atlantic Wrestling days. Great moment in time — at a Sunday matinee and Flair was in the feature match. My buddy and I stood and gave the bow salute to him. He stood there in his robe and winked and pointed at us. We had met Mario Lemieux, Jack Nicklaus, O.J. Simpson, et al, but that was the single greatest recognition anyone had ever given us.

By NYJay

September 10, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this

DAP

Exactly!! The Mets need miracles to win championships!!! Thats why they have so many fans its because of the almost Hollywood story behind their Wins!!!

However, the all holy and immaculate Braves who have assembled the greatest pitching staff in MLB history doesn’t have more Championships than they do and their fan base rests in the fact that they beat the Mets for 14 division titles.

YAY YOU!!!!

By Nevada Gambler

September 10, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this

DOB

You’re a funny man….I love your wit.

Those vans are my work trucks.

By Brian

September 10, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this

NYJay- This is about Braves/Muts. You need to calm down and think about what you’re saying! Your Muts will NEVER accomplish what this franchise did! I know what you’re gonna say-“Did”, but our system is deep, we have a very good GM and this season WILL make us stronger. The Muts are a descent team this year, so what! You’re exactly what I mean when I say Muts fans are baseball ignorant!!!!

By DAP

September 10, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this

if the marlins payrole wont be moving up as thier players recieve raises, does that mean even a few pitchers might beocme available? annibal sanchez or josh johnson would be nice to have.

By Lee in S GA

September 10, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this

a Gordon Solie reference, RIP for the best wrestling broadcaster ever

Yes he was. Especially back in the days of Florida Champioship Wrestling. You may not be old enough to go back that far to remember him though.

By Anal Wards Anders

September 10, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this

Lew As usual, you are right. Reyes sucks as do the filthy Mets. I am a completely obnoxious steaming pile of horse manure.

I need to go so Mommy can change my full diaper and apply somemore of the ward cream, varuca salt.

My boys are going to choke to the Phillies, I just know it.

By DAP

September 10, 2008 2:00 PM | Link to this

NY Jay haha, ok man. youre weird.

By DAP

September 10, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this

you think the marlins would trade hanley ramirez?

maybe they signed him to that contract so that they could trade him and get literally whatever they wanted for him.

By Shaun

September 10, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

DOB, if pitchers are less durable than in years past, you would expect some sort of correlation between single-season innings leaders and career innings leaders. This is because you’d expect, if pitchers were more durable in years past, that they would have pitched more innings in single seasons and careers. But while the single-season innings leaders is dominated by pitchers in the 1880s, the career innings leaders has pitchers from several different eras.

By Jeff R

September 10, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this

DOB, your observation is excellent:

Based on the rash of shoulder and elbow surgeries to prominent major leaguers in the past year or two, I can only believe that must be pushing the limit to what the human body can withstand. (This is based on know scientific study, no figures, no research, just observations.)

Question, though, are starting pitchers pushing the limit? These days, if starters give 200 innings, that’s significant. In the “old” days, it wasn’t unusual for good starters to give a team 260 - 275 innings. That includes 15 or better complete games; maybe 35-40 starts.

By Anal Wart Anders

September 10, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

Warts, Wards … stugots!

By Jeff R

September 10, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

Frankly, I wouldn’t sign Glavine again. A Hall of Famer in waiting, but Tommy’s day is done.

And I wouldn’t tender a guaranteed contract to Smoltz unless Wren is absolutely sure that he can deliver - or as close to absolute as is possible.

Smoltz is a bullpen pitcher now. I don’t think he should close. I think a younger pitcher needs to be given the chance to develop as the team’s closer. There is no future with Smoltz. The team needs to move beyond a possible one-year fix.

By Efrim

September 10, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this

Brad (Georgia): Ben, could you please help settle a debate for me? Who has the best farm system: Atlanta, New York Mets, or Philadelphia, and by how much? Also, where would you rank Atlanta’s system overall? Thanks.

Ben Badler: (2:09 PM ET ) The Braves. The Braves’ hitting propsects like Jason Heyward, Freddie Freeman, Gorkys Hernandez, Jordan Schafer and Tyler Flowers is a pretty formidable group that stacks up well against any other team’s hitters in the minors.

By Alan

September 10, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this

Glavine & Hampton have got to go. They are taking up roster spots and a ton of money.

Smoltz - maybe, but if there’s ANY doubt, he’s got to go for the good of the team. Also a ton of money that can be used on the free agent market.

All good times mus tcome to an end.

By Chop Chop

September 10, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

Here’s a classic Nature Boy interview with Gordon Solie.

(I was kinda hoping we’d see a pier-sixer.)

As wrestling fans know, the Dean could be a man of few words in interviews with Naitch. For example, take a look at this one.

By keylargo

September 10, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this

DAP

The Marlins will trade anyone on their roster who is arbitration eligible or a free agent. How much it will take is the only question.

Hanley Ramiriz’s contract goes into effect next year (he played for the minimum this year). I would love to see the Braves package Escobar and a prospect or two for him. I made a note above about the location of the new stadium, which will be in Little Havana. Unless you live in South Florida, you have no idea of what a Cuban would mean to attendance down here. Escobar is worth more to the Marlins than to any team in MLB plus he is cheap for a couple of more years. Ramirez would take up about 25% of the Marlins projected payroll.

By Jeff R

September 10, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this

Keylargo, I imagine that Wren is going to be open to a lot of different possibilities. His priority, as he’s stated, is starting pitching and a power hitter or two in the OF.

A Ramirez acquisition would be great. Escobar has plenty of upside, but Ramirez is the better talent, I believe.

By gayle

September 10, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this

I haven’t seen this much vitriol in a blog in some time. It appears that perhaps DOB has hit a nerve?

One matter overlooked here is what is the philosophy for this team? For every over-40, Mexican refugee and surgery survivor the Braves put on the roster, that is one less spot for a prospect to get his chance for experience in the bigs.

The real question here is do the Braves wish to desperately hang on to the past by entertaining the return of Smoltz or Glavine, or are they finally going to bite the bullet and truly begin to rebuild?

You just can’t have it both ways. The past few years we have seen how successful living in past glory is. I suggest that it is time for a new approach and they have been given a golden opportunity to do just that.

By keylargo

September 10, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this

DAP I forgot to mention about Hanley Ramirez’s contract, that the last stumbling block in the negotiations was the no trade clause. Ramirez wanted one and the Marlins refused to give him one. It almost ended negotiations, but Ramirez finally blinked and he signed the contract - with no no-trade clause.

You have to think the Marlins knew that they would be in this situation.

By Cliff Grant

September 10, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this

I wish Smoltz would just retire with dignity. It’s sad to see him trying to hang on when he’s clearly past his prime. If he stays, make him a closer. If he retires, make him a pitching coach.

By David O'Brien

September 10, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this

NEW BLOG making its way through the interweb pipeline….

By Brian

September 10, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this

Chop Chop- I remember all those matches he had with Sting, Great American Bash 90’ stands out but I’ve heard Flair was the biggest wimp and back stabber in wrestling. Of coarse it comes from guys like Scott Steiner, but it could be true.

By northbeach Scott

September 10, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this

Seems like Wren would want to keep his options open with Glavine, Hampton and Smoltz until he has to choose.

Assume the Braves coaches and scouts will meet with Wren and Cox after the season to rate and rank prospects and current Braves players to layout the team and needs. Wren will be part of the GM meetings after the WS concludes and will have a better idea of potential trades and trading partners.

Glavine and Smoltz will be evaluated for their recovery prognosis and Wren will begin making decisions with better information. If Glavine and Hampton are better options for the money than what is either in our system or the open market, of course Wren would consider them as alternatives.

You folks that want to cut bait, seem to want to punish the victims (i.e. Smoltz, Glavine, Hampton) because their injuries played key roles in the failure of the 2008 Braves. The smart play is to consider them as parts and possible solutions based on probabilities of recovery and effectiveness along with other alternatives. Just to get rid of them, blindly is simply short sighted.

By DAP

September 10, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

if i ruled the world, we would get ramierez without giving up escobar, and have hanley in LF.

if hanley ramierez becomes available, there is going to be very high demand.

By Jeff R

September 10, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

How about packaging Escobar, Johnson and a prospect for Ramirez and Uggla?

By Shaun

September 10, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this

Jeff R, I suspect that teams don’t want to push starters, particularly young starters, too much these days. And if a starter, particularly a young starter, shows any signs of wear that could lead to a serious injury, the team will shut him down.

I think pitchers should be handled somewhere in the middle of the two extremes of allowing them to throw 300+ innings a year and limiting them to 100 pitches every five days.

Personally, I think there should be limits not all that different from current ones. But I also think teams should go back to four-man rotations to maximize innings out of the best pitchers.

By Jeff R

September 10, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this

Shaun, makes sense. I’m still curious as to why pitchers are experiencing so many arm problems. Could it be that alot of kids start throwing competitively at too young an age?

By Thrillhouse44

September 10, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this

Speaking of the Marlins, where’s Man of Teal been?

I don’t think Wren would be willing to give up what it would take to get H.Ramirez. And I don’t think he should.

By Jim

September 10, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this

Lew,

Warren Spahn and Early Wynn were two pitchers from the 50’s that immediately come to mind who pitched into their 40’s (and were not knuckleballers). When Spahn was 42 he went 23 and 7 with an ERA of 2.6 and 7 shutouts (and pitched the famous 1-0 16-inning loss to Marichal). In the next generation, Carlton and Perry immediately come to mind as pitchers that pitched into their 40’s.

Not only did pitchers in the 50’s pitch in a 4-man rotation, they often were brought in in relief in important games on their “throwing day”. If you check the records of people like Spahn and Roberts you will find that they would pick up some wins and (retroactive) saves in relief in most years. The relief pitchers of the era (like Earnie Johnson and Don McMahon of the Braves) were not considered “closers” but would be brought into games to pitch multiple innings. Later, Rollie Fingers would have many 2 and 3 inning saves during a season. One of the first “firemen” was Joe Page of the late 40’s Yankees. In his most memorable relief stint in the next to last game of the season in 1949, he came in to replace Allie Reynolds in the 4th inning and held the Red Sox scoreless for the rest of the game.

By Jim

September 10, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this

Hanley Ramirez is a great player, but he is not a good defensive shortstop. He will be playing 3B or OF in the next couple of years. Uggla is a terrible defensive 2B whose monthly numbers are are much more inconsistent than KJ’s. The Braves do not have a replacement at SS for Escobar in their system after the Tex trade. (Lilli has all the appearance of a utillity infielder at best.) Shorstop and 2B are not two positions that need fixing with Esco, KJ, Infante, and Prado already available. If the Braves would want to acquire H. Ramirez, it would have to be to play 3B or OF and would probably take some combination of Heyward, Hanson, Schafer, etc. to get him.

By Larry

September 10, 2008 9:38 PM | Link to this

Oh great, Brain-Dead Bobby vows to return to kill another season in 2009…..Can the Braves just surrender now, stop wasting time?

ENOUGH ALREADY….same mistakes, same stubborn repeat losing moves…..see Wed night game: Sound starting pitching thro six innings, then the same ol’ parade of rats to blow….Boyer, Bennett, et al,,,,the one middle reliever who can get outs consistently (Ohman) gets 2 batters and five pitches total…..

Do you think these one-run losses this season—a record Usain Bolt could not even break—are a credit to Brain-Dead’s high late-innings’ IQ?

Once Brain-Dead has to make real decisions in tight games, he’s lost in space without a compass….His tactical moves never were above-average, now, well he is a disgrace,,,,Personally my all-time favorite is bunting in the first inning when the lead-off man gets aboard….

Have some size, Brain Dead…Your biggest/best asset are Old-School values.. How ‘bout falling on your sword and let a general whose elevator actually goes all the way to the top floor take over?

By John

September 11, 2008 9:46 PM | Link to this

Regarding the increased frequency of injuries, I think part of it is that the baseball season starts too early and goes too late. The weather in early April is hard on arms and by late August or September many pitchers are losing it or have thrown too many innings. I am as eager as any fan to see the game as much as I can, but extending the warm weather practice season might help, along with wrapping up the playoffs and world series by mid October..