Braves

By Robert S

August 10, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

It might be a stretch to say this, but I believe not having Tex on the roster has actually loosened these guys up - there’s no pressure or the uncertainty that came with his presence (will Tex be traded? Will he re-sign?).

I also believe there was a lot of self-imposed pressure in this team to perform, and quite frankly, they duffed it when they had their chance. They wanted it too badly.

Now they can sort of freewheel it around, knowing their playoff chances are slim, and having closure on the whole Tex thing. I just wish they’d freewheel it around starting in April…………..

By Wayne in Utah

August 10, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this

Not one to worry about being first, but gotta plug in and say “Let’s get this sweep!”

Headed out to the ballyard (finally) in a few minutes. What a long strange trip it’s been!

By N Nine

August 10, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this

we all knew frenchy would be back..there was no doubt in my mind. Jeff123 any words?

By BT

August 10, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this

Ultimate wake up for JF might have been to switch places in the order with Hampton today. Who would you rather have up to bat today facing a tough righty - Hampton or Jeff.

By N Nine

August 10, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this

Wayne in ..arizona guess its been a long trip for you and DOB! 110 degrees will do that to you. THE HEAT IS ON!….. “Im on fire”…fitting

By BossLady

August 10, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this

If the Braves continue to play like they are playing lately maybe they can get some individual awards. McCann has the catcher’s record, Chipper the batting average, JJ rookie record, etc. This is a business and if they succeed although in personal achievements then who knows what can happen next year. Good players always wanted to play with like guys. So, some free agents my ask or try to come to Atlanta. It is my hope that all of these young guys continue to have good success this year. That is a lot to hope for and continue to watch their progress

By brent a.

August 10, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this

Robert S,

I made similar comments last night about Teixeira. Tex was a hired gun here in Atlanta, and there was always concern about how long he would be a Brave.

Now that he is gone, there is a lot less concern about who is going to be here, who is leaving, etc. The guys can just go out there and play.

Hopefully the next major pieces we add will be guys that we sign to 4-6 year deals, or guys we know we can re-sign when we trade for them.

… .

as far as today goes, I don’t mind seeing Francoeur in there, especially with Mac playing.

My fear was that Sammons would play (day game after early evening game) and Francoeur as well.

With the way we’ve played this past week, combined with the faint glimmer of hope that still exists in this season, I’d have been just sick if Bobby completely threw away any chance we had at sweeping the Diamondbacks, by throwing out a AAA line-up.

Plus, we’ll learn something today with Francoeur in there. If he struggles, it simply helps prove the point that he is not an ingredient in our best line-up, which is either (A) the one we trotted out there last night; or (B) one that includes Martin Prado.

That being said, Infante at 2B is more than a tad interesting.

Go Braves!

By Jeff321

August 10, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this

(Posted from the old blog.)

keylargo you had a pretty good point up until this part, “You NEVER have anything postitive to say. Just criticism and venom.”

Now, I don’t know if you read all my posts or are purposely lying. But, I praise McCann every chance I get.. and he’s not the only one. So, this would be an opportune time for you to correct that fabrication.

N Nine Well, I figured after Frenchy took credit for riding the pine.. No way Cox bruises his ego any more by contradicting what the chosen won has professed.

By Couch Tater

August 10, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this

* Kentavo@1:51*

I was already thinking about a Filet Mignon(medium-rare) with a baked sweet tater. mmmm.

I new it was long-shot but the Braves aren’t mathematically eliminated either.

By big o

August 10, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this

All the die-hard Braves fans have not given up. I still believe. Look, we have something like 15 games remaining with the mets and and the phils. WE almost caugt them last year at the end. The good thing for us non season tix holders is we can get premium seats at the ted since all those fair weather big shots are not coming out anymore and have flooded the mkt with tickets. By the ehis time next week we will only be 5 out. we need to go 5-1 on this homestand though.

By Goodoleboy58

August 10, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this

Good to see Frenchy batting in the 8th hole.. Make him work himself out of that spot

By Doc Holliday

August 10, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this

So it took Boobby Cox 116 games to find out that JF could be benched, good thing is he also found out that the guy playing his position got on base 3 times during the game.

What does Boobby do? He lets JF play right after that. I would use the same lineup today. There is absolutely no reason to go back to JF today. None.

By N8

August 10, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this

Jeff in the 8-hole, huh?

Unfortunately, it comes about two months too late.

By RedEyedAndBlueforSkipAndFamily

August 10, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this

Most interesting part about this lineup isn’t Frenchy hitting eighth or McCann playing but that Infante is at 2B. Appears that Cox has been impressed enough with Infante’s performances lately to turn him into an everyday utility player. Kinda reminds me a little of how Pete Rose and Mickey Hatcher hustled their way into the lineup everyday in the 70s and 80s. I like it.

By nfieldr

August 10, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this

Regarding today’s lineup, I wonder if Bobby considered pulling a La Russa and bat Hampton 8th, Frenchy 9th.

By fansince66

August 10, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this

I reminded you all a few days ago how when the Phillies traded Abreu to the Yanks, how their record improved and I said the same thing could happen to the Bravos. No playoffs, but play spoiler and build for next year. A lot of you have already given up on next year, but I see a good foundation with the addition of a top flight pitcher and a corner outfielder.

By 96,sc

August 10, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this

A mongoose is quick. Quick like McCann. Mongoose McCann now takes it from the Cobra. Sounds like a winning combo.

By NickC

August 10, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this

big o, it’s a nice thought, but even if we go 5-1 on the homestand we’ll likely need a sweep of the Mets. Even with a loss today, that would mean we’d have gone 11-2 and we all know that’s not happening, at least not without a major turnaround from Francoeur, Kelly and Escobar.

By ncgary

August 10, 2008 3:08 PM | Link to this

ive pounded sand for a living before , actually it was an enjoyable job, driving dock posts into the sand on the lake,

it was always great listening to the braves and knowing skip was liable to say just about anything that came across his mind, im sure he will be missed by us all , and who could ever fugget harry when stike 3 came around and it sounded like he f**d him out

lets sweep today!!!! go braves

By semiballcoach

August 10, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this

nfieldr..beat me to it

By TheCutMan

August 10, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this

Call me a blatant homer and that’s cool. However, Chipper Jones continues to gain my respect and admiration for the way he goes about his leadership role on the Braves by example and statements based on same.

If ever a guy could and should be labeled the heart and soul of a team, that guy is Chipper. He’s the main reason I continue to watch and monitor this Braves’ team in their season of injuries and lost potential.

By RedEyedAndBlueforSkipAndFamily

August 10, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this

I like it 96. McCann was definitely Mongoose quick last night in the sixth inning. But we’re gonna need buy-in from McFann on this nickname.

DOB

As a kid I was conflicted when my mother refused to let me listen to Eddie Murphy’s “Delirious” but did allow me to crank the album “Born in the USA” to top volume. How “I’m on Fire” is any less raunchy than an early 80s Eddie Murphy routine is beyond me. Great summer tune.

By David O'Brien

August 10, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this

Talked to Gonzo for a while. Yes, Gonzo. Can call him Cobra if you’d like, but he much prefers the other.

I asked him, so do you have a preference between Cobra, Gonzo and Drunken Bartender. He laughed and said, “Gonzo, man. Gonzo.”

By keylargo

August 10, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

By keylargo

August 10, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this

Jeff321

I’m not piling on Lew’s post because he certainly doesn’t need my help but he said something that needed saying - again.

When you first got my attention you were relentlessly pounding first Manny Acosta, then you targeted Blaine Boyer. These two young guys that made the team as middle relievers but were thrust into the closer and set up man roles because of injuries to Moylan and Soriano.

They could have done better but day after day you just let them have it and the tone of your post from day one until I said I didn’t appreciate your constant criticism was the same. You (Acosta and Boyer) are no good, you suck, you should be released, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Now you are doing the same thing with Francoeur.

Well, I’m saying it again. I don’t appreciate your attitude. You NEVER have anything positive to say. Just criticism and venom.

If things here and as a Braves fan are so bad as to make you behave like this, I would find something more constructive to do with my time.

Jeff321

I am posting this again since it was at the very end of the last blog.

If I missed a post by you that was positive, I apologize. I have seen hundreds of posts by you ripping the Braves and individual players. You say the same things over and over and I am sure I skim your posts at times because I think surely I have read this numerous times before.

By bill

August 10, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

why would mariah carey surpassing elvis surprise you? she was the biggest artist of the 90’s and she made a huge comeback in 2005. i love the braves but come on with the cheap shot at mariah

By Doc Holliday

August 10, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this

BTW………Muts are being blasted by the fish 8-2, pelfrey lasted less than 5 IP I think.

Blanco keeps impressing…….great kid.

By Goodoleboy58

August 10, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this

DOB-

Any significant draftee’s still unsigned? I know the deadline is coming up soon right?

By fastasballs

August 10, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this

In all honesty, who here would be surprised if Hampton got on base more than Frenchy in today’s game? I’ll throw some 3:2 odds in favor of Hampton getting on base more. It would be 2:1, but anything inside on Frenchy is likely to hit him since he has commited to swinging before the pitcher toes the rubber.

As good as they have looked in the past few games it is virtually impossible for the Braves to win the division. They do have 21 games left with the teams ahead of them in the standings, but are they really going to go 17-4? Probably not, but stranger s** has happened.

As has been their problem all year they do nothing consistently. I’m happy with just watching some good baseball out of the team. Barring any other disasters hopefully they can climb back to .500 or so.

By Bobby's Cox

August 10, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this

Tex is not an impact player. He hit for around .270 while here. He’s been replaced with a guy that never strikes out and puts the ball in play. When you do that you put pressure on the opposing pitchers and defense to make their pitch, and make their plays. Plus you get the occasional bloop hit, infield hit, sun-in-the eyes, collision, fielder indecisiveness, etc…

When have we seen a defense do what arizona did yesterday when Tex was here? The lineup was predictable and over-anxious then. It seemed like someone would get on base and expect the other person to make something happen.

The lineup being displayed lately has been filled with .300-type patient hitters. Blanco, Chipper, Kotchman, BMac, Infante, Prado, Kotsay, and at times KJ and Escobar. The braves are making things happen without the long ball, and are making opposing pitchers work. They’re stringing together hits and building rallies - not relying on the long ball.

I’m glad Tex is gone.

By Goodoleboy58

August 10, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this

DOB-

Any significant draftee’s still unsigned? I know the deadline is coming up soon right?

By David O'Brien

August 10, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

Say what you will about Lionel Richie’s solo work, but the Commodores were a solid R&B band. I’m reminded because they’re playing “Easy” on the stadium PA. Great tune. “That’s why I’m easy, I’m easy like Sunday morning….”

Had that album of theirs in high school. It was the one that had “Brick House” on it. Another great tune. “Mighty, mighty, just lettin’ it all hang out….”

By jmart1951

August 10, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this

DOB, Did you talk with any of the players last night or today? Specifically, what were there comments about McCann stealing 3rd base?

By Del

August 10, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this

I wish Bobby would do two more things. #1 Keep Frenchy on the bench for a while , since it looks like he is going to remain with the big club. #2 Bench Johnson and play Prado on a regular basis.

I like last nights lineup with the exception of 2B!!

By NCBravesFan

August 10, 2008 3:35 PM | Link to this

fastasballs I think that’s a good point about the Braves the rest of the way. And it’s important to have a sense of perspective - we’ve won three straight on the road against what is essentially a .500 team.

If the Braves keep up the good play when the Cubs come to town and when we play the Cards a little later, then we can say that this turnaround is a hopeful trend that could get the Braves back into this thing by September. (Depending of course on what the teams ahead of us do in the next two weeks.)

For now, context is important - it’s three games in one series against an opponent that’s got some defensive issues. (And two of the wins came against their lesser starters.)

By Dan in NJ

August 10, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this

As much as i’m happy that Frenchy is batting in the 8th spot. I still wonder what the hell is he doing in the line up period. BC must field his best and its obvious frenchy doesn’t fit in. Thats just sickening. But yet he will bench/give a day off to KJ. What the hell is up with this picture? typical BC.

Does Frenchy have something against management? blackmail type stuff?

By JohnGTFan

August 10, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this

This winning streak is nice (I fully expect them to get blanked today)…but what will the next blog be titled? “Atl has 1st successful road trip..then comes home and gets sweeped by Cubs”? There is NOTHING to be excited about by this team. There hasn’t been for quite a long time. Let’s just hope the extra money in 2009 is used WISELY

By Doc Holliday

August 10, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this

Prado has 84 ABs and has a better OBP than Mc………Who is 3rd on the team…….meaning Prado is second on the team only behind chipper.

By D-Backs Fan

August 10, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this

I am sure glad Jeff Francoeur is in the lineup today.

Makes me feel a lot better avoiding the sweep with him in right field.

Also, we are pretty fortunate that we got to see this kid Martin Prado only once in a four game series. He destroyed us on Friday night. A lineup today with Infante and Prado, and with Francoeur on the bench would have me biting my nails personally.

Oh well, I like our chances, especially to make the playoffs in our weak division. Glad we don’t play in the central or east. Good luck as spectators come October, and thanks again for the weaker lineup today.

By Jeff321

August 10, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this

Thanks, keylargo

By fastasballs

August 10, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this

A mongoose is quick. Quick like McCann. Mongoose McCann now takes it from the Cobra. Sounds like a winning combo.

I thought the mongoose killed cobras? Regardless, Mongoose McCann taking it from the Cobra doesn’t quite sound right.

By Rush Limbaugh

August 10, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this

Think of the Braves as McCain. They have too many old, injured pitchers that can’t lift their arms over their shoulders anymore. We’re not in love with the Braves this year like we’re not exactly in love with McCain. But we want the Braves to win. Their chances don’t look good right now so it’s time for some OPERATION CHAOS.

Think of the Phillies as Hillary, a loud, obnoxious, abrasive carpet bagging broad (street bully). Think of Brett Myers as Bill, a blowhard whose mouth and temper hurts their cause. Think of the Marlins as Obama, inexperienced kids in over their heads and weak on defense. Think of the Mets as Edwards because David Wright has that phony goody two shoes charm and smile that you know just ain’t wright. Think of Reyes as Wright’s illegitimate love child who threatens to sabotage their entire campaign.

We’re down 8.5 points in the latest polls but 21 of our 45 remaining debates are against these punks. Best of all we’ve got 7 debates remaining with the pathetic Guilanis of the division: The Nats. Not a perfect analogy because the Nats aren’t threatening to get into this race when they get down to Florida at some point in the future when the darn thing has already been long since decided.

But anyways, it’s time for Operation Chaos. If the Braves can’t win, we can still act like a big bunch of sockblockers who ruin it for the rest of them. But we still just might win it all if we make things chaotic enough.

This is a big start for Hampton. If he pitches great, then watch out. The Braves could cause some serious damage in this division with Hampton, Jurrjens, Campillo and Glavine in the rotation over the last 45 contests with Charlie Morton aiding the cause.

But please, oh friggin’ please, BENCH THE FRENCH! Got to hand it to Francoeur in his desire to play everyday. This might be the first time since the Revolutionary War the French have wanted to fight. Maybe McCann needs to stop gobbling up all of Frenchy’s freedom fries though.

Speaking of gobbling, McCann looked like he was Pac Man yesterday gobbling up fielders in the maze that is the basepaths. Pac Man though is a bad nickname these days because of a certain football playing felon. So why not call him the Mac Man?

How come Ms. Mac Man has never gotten fifty chances a month to ask Mac Man on cable if he is human? Does Ms. Mac Man like to gobble up fielders too? These be thing Braves Nation needs to know but Mac Man and Ms. Mac Man never get to talk on cable specials like the French Man and his wife.

Speaking of the French Man, this also might be the first time a French man loves his wife. French men usually love their mistresses. This is one odd French man this Francoeur kid..

But anyways, back to Mac Man. We know the the Flying Hawaiian can fly and temporarily take Mac Man’s life, so he must be a ghost. But if he were a Mac Man ghost, which ghost would he be? Inky, Blinky, Pinky or Clyde? Some say it was a cheap shot, so probably Pinky.

Mac Man must have gobbled some power pellets before he took out Hudson yesterday. Orlando is a cool name and a cool guy so if he were a Mac Man ghost, he’d have to be named Clyde because Clyde is a damn cool name.

People don’t name their kids Clyde no more. How come? Too many cheesy 90210 names like Brandon and Dylan. Clyde is a better name. Walt “Clyde” Frazier. Bonnie and Clyde. Clyde “The Glide” Drexler. But there is no need to waste a cool nickname like Clyde on a guy with a cool first name like Orlando.

Isn’t it ironic that Orlando is a hip name but is a tragically unhip city? Unfortunately, the Braves train in the tragically unhip city. Maybe Mac Man destroyed Orlando yesterday because he can’t destroy the Orlando we all wish we could take out. Alot of symbolism in that take down of Orlando by Mac Man yesterday.

Operation Chaos! Yes, We Can!

And yes, good ole Rush here was clearly once again high when he wrote this. Rush apologizes for once again relapsing. It won’t be the last time. The pain pills can make yours truly loopy but the pain pills are necessary when Mac Man is running around in a chaotic fashion on the basepath maze gobbling people up. And, yes, Rush here empathizes with the French Man because Rush knows what it is like to be blind and aimlessly swinging away at anything and everything.

By Goodoleboy58

August 10, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this

B-mac is tied for 3rd in the Majors, as far as catchers go, in stolen bases

By keylargo

August 10, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

Bobby’s Cox

Good post on Tex. It’s no coincidence he has never been to the playoffs. Plus think how much could go wrong with a guy making so much more than his team mates. Dissension would be lurking.

Any truth to the rumor Martin Prado is planning to go through a vigorous weightlifting program this offseason to add 15 pounds of muscle so he can hit more HR’s? 8)

By fastasballs

August 10, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this

D-Backs Fan, In all seriousness unless Francoeur is traded to the Dodgers you guys probably are not making the playoffs. Too bad the Braves didn’t unload Tex to you guys or I’d have bet the house you were not going to win the division.

You have lost 3 straight to the Braves, come on nobody does that but the Mutts & they do it often I might add. Your offense is sputtering & with Hudson going down you have to be worried.

The Dodgers are going to sail right on past the D-Backs & take the division.

By Bobby's Cox

August 10, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this

So Rush,

are you saying the braves are the Ralph Nader of the division?

By David O'Brien

August 10, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this

Matt Diaz is going to start a rehab assignment at Richmond soon as Braves get home. No set date for activation from DL.

Bobby insisted that he and Frank haven’t even discussed who might be called up in September.

By 96,sc

August 10, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this

fastasballs I agree. I like Mongoose McCann but I didn’t know how to word that sentence. No offense,but, fastasballs doesn’t quite sound right either.

By Esco#1

August 10, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this

DOB

Can you tell me the last time Esco has not had a hit in a game? Yeah Esco has had less hitting since he was injured, but its not like he has lost it. If Im not mistaken he always gets AT Least One hit in a game and AT Least one RBI. Defensively I don’t see anyone better…so its upsetting when some people put him in a category of KJ and Frenchie cause that is just not the case!

By fastasballs

August 10, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this

BENCH THE FRENCH

That one was a drink spewer for sure. Still chuckling about that & the Revolutionary War comment.

By Blaine Boyer is a large tub of goo

August 10, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this

Blaine Boyer is a middle reliever. His middle is vast and filled with goo.

He is also being considered for rear reliever.

By ncgary

August 10, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this

that was a heckuva an album in school, we had a lot of brickhouses where i went

By Blaine Boyer is a large tub of goo

August 10, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this

Rush Limbaugh is an immense tub of goo.

On pills.

By fastasballs

August 10, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this

96,sc You have a good point, no offense taken. The name is meaningless really, some idiotic saying one of my friends made up & it has stuck around through the years. I was going to swap monikers on here, but I guess it will stick around.

By David O'Brien

August 10, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this

Rush, now that was funny.

Loved the bit about Orlando. So very true.

And I still own two pairs of Puma Clydes. Cool kicks.

By NCBravesFan

August 10, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this

Isaac Hayes died this morning, according to WMC-TV in Memphis. RIP to a bad M f* (shuttin my mouth).

By Blaine Boyer is a large tub of goo

August 10, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this

Say what you will about Lionel Richie’s solo work, but the Commodores were a solid R&B band.

The Commodores were a medium-sized cauldron of funk.

James Brown was the fountain of all funk.

By Jeff321

August 10, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this

Anyone else catch that pregame interview with Chipper on FSN Arizona?

By Rush Limbaugh

August 10, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

Rush Limbaugh is an immense tub of goo.

Rush prefers to be called an immense cash cow.

Rush also happens to believe Blaine Boyer needs to eat more chikin.

By First National Bank

August 10, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this

NOTICE

Due to repeated failure to pay the mortgage, this blog is in default and steps to reposses it have begun.

Please plan to pack up your things and vacate within 30 days or you will be evicted.

Thank you for your cooperation.

By Donk

August 10, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this

You know, Bobby Cox benching Kelly Johnson in favor of Infante today, when Johnson has pretty decent and above average second baseman stats this year in favor of Infante and his ugly career stats and season stats that look pretty much like Kelly Johnson’s except in like half the at-bats is absolutely laughable coming from the guy who kept starting Keith Lockhart over Marcus Giles for the longest time.

Talk about biased favoritism from Bobby.

By No fool like an old fool

August 10, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this

It is apt to compare John McCain to the Braves.

Bobby Cox is a doddering old fool who has lost his grasp on geography and surrounds himself with idiots and incompetents.

By Goodoleboy58

August 10, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this

aight lets get em back

By Bobby's Cox

August 10, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this

kentavo

lol. He’s got warning track power…almost there but not quite, so maybe.

I’m happy with the offense they’ve been showing over the last week, much like the Tex post you liked. I’ll settle for the doubles and triples, like Giles 2005 stats. That’s how i view the kid.

BTW, i’m a prado fan but not as diehard as you’ve been led to believe. Just been an advocate because he’s better than most people think, and never got a fair shake - especially during KJ’s struggles. People writing him off on the blog would get to me, that’s the reason for the man crush. Looks like people on here are more fond of him now, so i’ll start backing off a bit.

By London baseball fan

August 10, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this

I hear the Braves are tallying lots of runs and performing smashingly of late.

This makes me feel rather chipper.

By fastasballs

August 10, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this

What exactly does Cox think Frenchy is going to accomplish today besides making himself look more foolish than he has been.

You can’t hide the weak link, no matter where you bat him.

By Goodoleboy58

August 10, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this

guess we can cool off on the “Sign Mike Hampton before its too late for the minimum contract” for awhile ehh

By MurphyRules

August 10, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this

If you didn’t KNOW the Braves were going to lose today, you haven’t been paying attention (or looking at the pitching matchups).

I say it’s the beginning of a four-game losing skid.

By Donk Answer

August 10, 2008 4:51 PM | Link to this

1. Kelly is far from an above average second baseman. 2. Using Keith Lockhart over Giles is a bad comparison. How about using Giles over Mark DeRosa? Derosa won the job putting up crazy numbers and practically carrying the Braves then he messed his ankle up, lost the job while he was out and could never crack the lineup again. His only option was playing third when Chipper was still in left field after Vinny left. DeRo stunk it for a couple of months and Cox moved Chipper back to third. Even though DeRo did stink it up a couple of months at third, Bobby didn’t display one tenth of the patience with him that he has with guys like…..Frenchy and …..Giles.

Bad comparison, Donk. DeRo is still contributing to the Cubs and……where is Giles?

By David O'Brien

August 10, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

Blanco’s speed can really disrupt things, can’t it?

By Bravenate

August 10, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this

Coincidence or not but looking at Francouer weak at bats I can only think about lack of HGH, it’s a big coincidence that Frenchy was one of the most promising prospects after two seasons, great power lot of homers, and just after the Mitchel report brougth all that attention to the use of HGH substances he has become one of the weakest player in the mayors, even when all reports from spring training said that Frenchy comes with more muscle and looked in great shape, an as an example look at the weak line , if can be called that way, that he just hit on his first at bat, why no one in the media is talking about this?, I feel very sorry for him.

By Steve from OH

August 10, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this

Bravenate:

I’ll say this for the last daggone time: HGH DOES NOT ENHANCE ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE!!!!

By DeDonking the Donk

August 10, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this

Bobby didn’t display one tenth of the patience with him that he has with guys like…..Frenchy and …..Giles

…..and Kelly Johnson? Been patient with the kid for 2 years.

By Answering Donk Answer

August 10, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this

Kelly is far from an above average second baseman.

Johnson is without a doubt an above average offensive second baseman. All these stats were shown about two blogs ago, go check ‘em out.

Bad comparison, Donk. DeRo…

YOU made the Lockhart-DeRosa comparison. Tell it to yourself.

By Don't kid Yourself

August 10, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this

“Looks like people on here are more fond of him now”

It’s still just you and a couple of others.

By Bobby's Cox

August 10, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this

man, Fracoeur is just really bad.

.227 and falling.

I wonder what the over/under odds are of him hitting AJ’s .222 from last year.

At least AJ hit 26 HR and had 94 RBI.

By ArkyTech

August 10, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this

Amazing how much of a liability Francoeur has became. What a relief for pitcher to know he is facing a lineup that includes the equivalent of two pitchers. Well, except when Hampton the the actual pitcher…..

By Steve from OH

August 10, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this

Kelly is far from an above average second baseman Donk answer

Kelly’s actually an above average player, in general, as evidenced by his .270 EqA.

By Bravenate

August 10, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH

If HGH does not enhance athletic performance then why is being prohibited?

HGH help athletes to gain energy and strength, due to this it helps to enhance athlete performance period, you can find lot if information about this wherever you look for it.

By ArkyTech

August 10, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this

Amazing how much of a liability Francoeur has become. What a relief for a pitcher to know he is facing a lineup that includes the equivalent of two pitchers. Well, except when Hampton is the actual pitcher…..

By More Donk Favoritism

August 10, 2008 5:22 PM | Link to this

If Kelly Johnson had Francoeur’s season stats, would he still be starting everyday?

Oh wait…

By bravos2249

August 10, 2008 5:23 PM | Link to this

why ibb a guy hitting .191?

By Will

August 10, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this

I am floored Mike Hampton even got a win this season. Braves have nearly no chance to win when he pitches. He looks like a joker today.

By Jake

August 10, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this

I guess Hampton is still trying to shake off that 3 years of rust. Hopefully he’ll do better next time around.

By Jeff321

August 10, 2008 5:27 PM | Link to this

I wonder how Bobby Cox feels about that intentional walk now?

By RedEyedAndBlue

August 10, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH

I think it would be more correct to say that HGH’s effectiveness as a performance-enhancing substance remains unclear. The scientific evidence to support the positive effect of HGH on athletic performance does not currently exist.

But keep in mind that in the 1980s, the scientific evidence didn’t exist that steroids boosted athletic performance. Athletes knew it did and took them anyway. Only later did science catch up with what the athletes already knew.

By N Nine

August 10, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this

had no idea that GONZO has not regained velocity yet according to the new article from mark bowman on braves.com.

By Braveheart

August 10, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this

looking at Francouer weak at bats I can only think about lack of HGH, it’s a big coincidence that Frenchy was one of the most promising prospects after two seasons, great power lot of homers, and just after the Mitchel report brougth all that attention to the use of HGH substances he has become one of the weakest player in the mayors,

He put on alot of muscle he never had this offseason after the Mitchell Report. He was never a big muscle bound freak in the past. Nor did he look like a Luis Gonzalez ripped up freak in the past. One of the two are usually indicators of PED abuse. In the past, he was naturally built long and lean and strong like athletes used to be. His woes have nothing to do with what you are saying.

His problems at the beginning of the year seemed to be more about some physical problems combined with flawed mechanics and poor plate discipline and an inability to make adjustments to the adjustments they were making on him. After that, it got into his head and he got completely lost.

I don’t understand why Cox keeps throwing him out there. Usually, the best way to get out of a slump is to be hitting and not sitting but not when you are as clueless and lost as he is right now. You have to show signs of life before being given life support.

I hope he spends the entire winter with The Mac Daddy, the daddy of the Mac, working on mechanical perfection.

One thing I have noticed this season that I think is somewhat to blame for the struggles of Francoeur, KJ and Escobar is that they all kind of got away from who they are as hitters. KJ is patient but is not walking as much. Escobar is aggressive but has gotten more walks. Francoeur tried to be everything to everyone and ended up being nothing and a nobody.

I hope that they all get back to who they were at their core as hitters next season. I also hope that Francoeur fixes his mechanical flaws. Fixing the approach is usless if the mechanics stink. Mechanical perfection forgives alot of poor plate discipline and approach if you are talented enough ….. and Francoeur is talented enough. It’s alot easier to develop better plate discipline once you are mechanically sound because you have more control of the outcome when you swing and can start to see things better as a hitter. People talk about his eyes affecting his depth perception. But overlunging and dropping your hands terribly impacts your depth perception as a hitter as well since your head ain’t steady.

I hope he understands that and goes to McCann’s father or some other competent professional hitting coach and spends 4 months breaking himself down mechanically and building himself back up mechanically. I don’t see why he wouldn’t spend most of the winter driving down the street to hit with McCann’s dad and a couple of weeks or so hunting and hitting in cages at the Double Dime with Chipper and his father.

By StingerSplash

August 10, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this

Commodores did some quality work, like “Strawberry Letter 22,” nice, easy, slow groove. Then Lionel decided to go his own way and give us Nicole. Thanks, pal. Go back to dancin on the ——- ceiling, will ya.

By ArkyTech

August 10, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this

Bat Prado for Francoeur here and we may make it a ball game!

By Steve from OH

August 10, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this

RedEyedAndBlue

Yeah, that is probably more correct. But (to my knowledge) the literature is pretty consistent in saying that there really isn’t any correlation between GH users and non-GH users in terms of max lift, endurance, etc. There’s a lot of evidence out there that it can actually make you weaker, too.

Let’s put it this way—I’d recommend steroids if you really wanted to get bigger and stronger (Of course, I in no way recommend that you actually use steroids and I don’t support their use)

By Run Heap Run

August 10, 2008 5:51 PM | Link to this

Nice work there, French Fried. Too bad you didn’t “plan to ask for a day off anyway” today too.

By BT

August 10, 2008 5:51 PM | Link to this

Francoeur - I feel sorry for him too, but I feel worse for Braves Fans. I am incensed that he is still in the lineup. Another bases loaded disaster.

By ArkyTech

August 10, 2008 5:52 PM | Link to this

Jeff, just stand there and DON’T SWING!

By Oh Brother..

August 10, 2008 5:52 PM | Link to this

STOP PLAYING FRANCOUER!

KJ for right field!

By David O'Brien

August 10, 2008 5:52 PM | Link to this

You couldn’t fail that many times with bases loaded if you tried to. Really, you couldn’t.

By eman

August 10, 2008 5:53 PM | Link to this

wow jeff is just ….. sad this year

By Goat Horns

August 10, 2008 5:53 PM | Link to this

I wonder if Bobby even considered pinch hitting for Frenchy with the bases loaded?

We had a chance to get back in this game!

Thanks Bobby. I guess it was more important to keep Frenchy happy rather than try to go for the sweep.

By Original Jon

August 10, 2008 5:53 PM | Link to this

DOB Any chance you know how many times Jeff has come up with the bases loaded and grounded into a double play or just not driven a run home? I mean, it never seems to fail. Every time we have a rally going, bases loaded, 1 out, Jeff always seems to be the next at bat, and it always seems as if he is grounding into a double play to end the inning, or he is striking out. He is pathetic with bases full and less than two outs.

By bgvt

August 10, 2008 5:54 PM | Link to this

Ouch — that GiDP was so predictable it should be funny but I’m not laughing.

By Tomas

August 10, 2008 5:54 PM | Link to this

I know Frenchy has talent and is going to get back to where he was, but man what a dissapointment.

By Mike in LA

August 10, 2008 5:56 PM | Link to this

Why the hell wasn’t Francoeur pinch hit for there? They had Webb in all kinds of trouble. They could have hit Prado, Kelly Johnson, or Norton. Anybody could have seen the double play coming. I’m as big a Bobby Cox fan as anybody but his loyalty to struggling players hurts the team at crucial times. I don’t know what to make of Francoeur anymore. I think they should trade him to the Royals for whatever they’ll give

By EffFracneour

August 10, 2008 5:56 PM | Link to this

Why is Franceour in the line up in the game against Webb? He’s Godawful and she be demoted for good. Batting around .160 this month with TWO RBIs. Way to go, Franceour. And you wondered why you were sent down to the minors? You should be cleaning bathrooms, buddy. Bobby Cox must be going senile or something because he continually puts the guy in the line up and continually blows up in his face. Not to mention Cox hasn’t even brought up Anderson, a guy who has a 15 game hit streak in the minors and had 5 game streak going before being demoted. Where’s the logic in that, Cox? Put Prado back in and tell Franceour to pack his bags because Atlanta fans are SICK OF THIS S**.

By Del

August 10, 2008 5:57 PM | Link to this

Hey Frenchy — you are about as useless as fog lights on the space shuttle. Do us all a favor and bench yourself since your eternal benefactor won’t. Talk about black holes in a lineup!!

By Possibly from Frenchy's next blog

August 10, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

Dear Bloggers:

Here are some more things that you often hear in the Braves dugout.

1) ‘Aunt Betty’: That’s a slow groundball that I hit back to the opposing pitcher for an easy out.

2) ‘Wiff’: That refers to what I seem to do a lot - swing and miss at pitches. Silly me.

3) ‘Cheesed’: That means ‘annoyed’. Let’s use it in a sentence: Terry Pendleton is cheesed again because he spent two hours working with me yesterday and I’ve already forgotten everything he said.

4) ‘Groundhog’: That’s a pitch in the dirt. I try to murder them but they’re tough to catch up with.

5) ‘WTF’: That’s an abbreviation of what Bobby says every time I hit into a double play with the bases loaded. Bobby seems to swear a lot but I wouldn’t want to play for anyone else.

Well that’s all for now, keep hacking Braves fans!

By RedEyedAndBlue

August 10, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

Does Cox not have Francoeur’s stats with the bases loaded and RISP handy or something????!!!!

By Braveheart

August 10, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this

Why the hell is Francoeur still in the major leagues? I really don’t get it. And if he is in the majors, why is he starting?

I’ve been the biggest Francoeur apologist/supporter, blah, blah, blah. But enough is enough. I know Cox and all think they are showing him love or whatever by continuing to play him but it’s not love. It’s really kind of cruel. It’s like having a mentally ill or addict family member or friend whose mental illness or addiction you keep enabling.

Sometimes the nicest thing you can do for someone is to be cruel to them and the cruelest thing you can do is to be nice to them.

The nicest thing Cox could do to Francoeur is to be cruel and send him down to the minors. The cruelest thing Cox could do to Francoeur is to be nice to him by keeping him in the majors.

By EffFracneour

August 10, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this

Tomas: Talent can only go so far for a guy who has no discipline.

By Doc Holliday

August 10, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this

If JF was playing in:

NY (Bronx), Anaheim, Boston, St. Louis, Chicago (any), Philly, TB, Detroit, Milwaukee or LA (Dodgers), would he still be playing everyday ???

By Original Jon

August 10, 2008 6:01 PM | Link to this

Wow, I am almost missing Andruw in those spots, at least he might have struck out.

By Steve from OH

August 10, 2008 6:02 PM | Link to this

Hmmm….one of my posts must’ve gotten lost. I was gonna post some studies showing the inconclusiveness of HGH use, but it never showed up.

Here’s another one

Aaaannnndd….back to baseball.

By Bravenate

August 10, 2008 6:04 PM | Link to this

you can call it wherever you want but in all season I can’t remember Frenchy hitting the ball hard, the fly balls become only pup outs, the line drives become ground outs, he is not abble to pass the ball from infield, he has been hitting the ball but not with the strength he was suppoused to.

By Mike in LA

August 10, 2008 6:04 PM | Link to this

And of course Norton starts the 7th with a hit. Hmm, would have been nice if he was batting in the 8 hole in the 6th.

By kirknga

August 10, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this

Commodores did some quality work, like “Strawberry Letter 22,”

It’s was the Brothers Johnson who did that classic toon.

By kirknga

August 10, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this

..uh..er..I meant to say tune, not toon.

By N Nine

August 10, 2008 6:09 PM | Link to this

Bat Freancy 8th and somehow he finds himself with bases loaded..he can’t hide from this. This is the saddest moment in his career.

Those guys talking about slight chance in making a comeback for playoffs..well that balloon just popped. It’s sad. You know your having a bad year when you get an out and the BA stays at the same (.227) geez

On a brighter note: Fuego Fante can do it all. He plays anywhere you ask him to..Remember a few years ago when bobby had a SET lineup. Same folks at same positions, now everyday the debate is who is playing and where. How times have changed.

By Braveheart

August 10, 2008 6:10 PM | Link to this

If someone has a lifetime stat line of .259/.300/.416 in 1508 plate appearances against righthanders, why does that guy get to start against righthanders? Even better, why does he get a start against a dominant righthander like Brandon Webb? Klesko got platooned while here against lefties but Frenchy doesn’t get benched against righties despite horrible career numbers against righties? There doesn’t appear to be any rhyme or reason behind the decision as to who gets platooned and who doesn’t.

By If I were team owner

August 10, 2008 6:13 PM | Link to this

I’d honestly fire Cox for still starting Francoeur each and every day while benching the team’s third best hitter in Kelly Johnson.

This is just absurd and completely inexcusable. Cox should have to answer these hard questions. Where are you media?

By Prattvillenolzfan

August 10, 2008 6:15 PM | Link to this

The Braves will not bow to public sentiment, nor should they

However, the ONLY way to get the Braves attention is to INCESSANTLY BOO Franceour every time he makes an out. I know that is not the classy thing to do, however as Braves fans, we spend a hell of alot of money to support this team, We demand excellence

Before the Braves sent Franceour down earlier, the crowd was beginning to turn on Franceour. It seems like they have quieted down since he’s been back (although, his average is worse Since he returned, than it is before he was sent down.

It is too late to send him back down to the minors this year. There is only 2 1/2 weeks left in the regular season. Wren screwed up big-time by appeasing Bobby by recalling him after only 4 days.

Oh yeah…..our Right fielder got 3 hits last night and we scored 11 runs,

Our Right fielder tonight (w/1more AB left) strikes out with a runner on 2nd, flies out, and hits into a Dp w/ bases loaded…..

Once again, stupid managing…….

By bravos2249

August 10, 2008 6:18 PM | Link to this

DOB

Do you think that since Tavarez resurgence in ATlanta that the Braves may try and sign him cheap next year?

I.E 1 million or less

By The Commodores

August 10, 2008 6:18 PM | Link to this

Dedicated to Jeff Francoeur

Thanks for the times

That you’ve given me

The memories are all in my mind

And now that we’ve come

To the end of our rainbow

There’s something

I must say out loud

It’s once, twice

Three strikes to Frenchy

By Tomas

August 10, 2008 6:22 PM | Link to this

By the way, Julian Tavarez has been surprisingly very good. In 11 innings only 3 earned runs, and two of them were in the first game he pitched, when he hadn’t pitched in a long time.

By Media

August 10, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this

Where are you media?

Me still here. Just lookin’.

By Blaine Boyer is a tremendously large vat of goo

August 10, 2008 6:29 PM | Link to this

Lucky for goo boy that the D’backs want this game over with.

By N Nine

August 10, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this

Do you think that since Tavarez resurgence in ATlanta that the Braves may try and sign him cheap next year?

I.E 1 million or less bravos2249

Ewwww, was that a joke or real question?

By Jake

August 10, 2008 6:34 PM | Link to this

Although it looks like we will lose this game, I have to consider this road trip a victory. No one else has gotten hurt and we have actually gotten healthier with the return of Chipper and Mac. It also looks as though we are getting Tommy Back next so things are looking up for the first time in a long time for this team.

By Braveheart

August 10, 2008 6:34 PM | Link to this

It is too late to send him back down to the minors this year. There is only 2 1/2 weeks left in the regular season. Wren screwed up big-time by appeasing Bobby by recalling him after only 4 days.

2.5 weeks or not, it’s not too late. Send him down, DL him, whatever. 2.5 weeks is 15 games and about 20, 30 or 40 men not left stranded on base by Francoeur. The Braves still have a little bit of a chance to make it interesting this season but can only do so if Francoeur is not killing every darn rally. This is just completely inexcusable and it’s not fair to the rest of the players and most of all, it is not fair to Francoeur. It’s almost like they’re telling him, okay, you didn’t want to get sent down, well, then, drown and take the rest of us down with you. It’s bizarre. I don’t get how the status quo is healthy for him or the team in the present or in the long term. They’re destroying any trade value he has left and might end up destroying his ability to become a better player because it’s gonna take an incredibly mentally strong player to bounce back from being put through 162 games of completely sucking.

By N Nine

August 10, 2008 6:39 PM | Link to this

I wonder how we are (maybe) still sane.

So much negitive comments

so much failure of Francine

Many loses with bobby not plugging the best guys

yet we still vent non stop while we could be out on a park relaxing.

Someone said only 2 weeks left in minors…well thats 2 weeks for francine

im just upset and disappointed today so is our buddy Wayne in Arizona!

By Nicole Richey's Dad

August 10, 2008 6:40 PM | Link to this

It’s once, twice

Three strikes to Frenchy

By Bill in VA

August 10, 2008 6:43 PM | Link to this

Braves, please do something with Frenchy. He’s hurting himself as much as he is the Braves. Agree with you, Braveheart.

By Bravo

August 10, 2008 6:45 PM | Link to this

I can explain it in one name:

Terry McJerk

By bravos2249

August 10, 2008 6:45 PM | Link to this

N Nine

Are you as blind as Frenchy’s swing or what?

Tavarez w/ Braves

2.45 era 5 walks 8 SO and 7 hits in 11 innings/12 games

By Firetheoldfool

August 10, 2008 6:46 PM | Link to this

What else can we say about Francouer. He is not to blame since he sux and will continue to suck. The blame is squarely on the shoulders on the old fool manager for begging Wren to bring him back up and then continually putting him in the lineup day after day. Even dropping him to 8th and he finds a way to hit into a DP with the bases loaded. Enough!!!!! Cut the no-talent bum.

By Clemson Carl

August 10, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this

Boog and Joe:

How is 4-3 a very good road trip?

Please don’t get all ditzy on us the last six weeks of the season.

By bravos2249

August 10, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this

Frenchy 85 K’s 9 hr 49 rbi

Kelly 86 K’s 9 hr 47 rbi

By fastasballs

August 10, 2008 6:48 PM | Link to this

Amen Braveheart.

Most any other manager would have pinch hit for Frenchy in that situation. He was clueless the first two at bats against Webb & with a legit chance to get back in the game Cox sits on his hands & allows him to fail himself & the team once again.

It’s beyond sad to watch this display at the Major League level. I don’t know what’s wrong with him, but it’s way past the “he’ll snap out of it” phase.

It’s been proven that a better option is available to the Braves to play in his spot. Is Infante or Blanco in right field the answer for the future? No, but this season it will due because it’s a helluva lot better than he is right now. He can barely hit the ball out of the infield at this point.

I really hope Frenchy finds it by next year, but like Andruw before him the writing is on the wall that he won’t.

By Braveheart

August 10, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this

Although it looks like we will lose this game, I have to consider this road trip a victory. No one else has gotten hurt and we have actually gotten healthier with the return of Chipper and Mac. It also looks as though we are getting Tommy Back next so things are looking up for the first time in a long time for this team.

I agree with that. A sweep would have been nice and was needed though. But taking three out of four from the DBacks with the one loss being to perhaps the best pitcher in the league is gratifying. I would have liked to see how today’s game would have turned out without the rally killer destroying any and all chances to make this a competitive game.

By Prattvillenolzfan

August 10, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this

Braveheart

Let me clarify my post about sending Franceour down….I agree with you that IF his ankle is hurting, then the Braves should go ahead and shut him down for the year…DL him, let him get a fresh start next year…..

My personal opinion is that he is not going to accomplish anything by going back to the minors. And he is certainly killing us by being in the line-up… I would shut him down for the year.

The line-up the Braves displayed last night has the makings of a very successful line-up.

For Franceour to be successful next year, he needs to put this year behind him So go ahead and end it now…..

Cox, by playing him everyday, is doing nothing but killing his confidence, and hurting the team.

I know DOB won’t say/nor will the players say…but there has to be some resentment by Franceour continuing to play everyday. For a team that has always puts clubhouse chemistry first and foremost, continually playing Franceour is going to come back and bite Cox in the butt…..

By RedEyedAndBlue

August 10, 2008 6:54 PM | Link to this

Hadn’t thought about that N Nine*. Wayne in Utah’s probably the only one more distraught than us.

Amidst all the frustration with Francoeur, let’s not forget that Brandon Webb was brilliant today. Dude’s on his way to the Cy Young.

Hindsight is 20/20. But in retrospect I think that the Braves really blew it when they brought Francoeur back from Mississippi so soon. Should have given him 2-3 weeks at least to get his mind straight and build his confidence.

By SOUTHERN BOY

August 10, 2008 6:54 PM | Link to this

What do Brad Komminsk and Jeff Francan’t have in common? Both are-were highly touted players who had no businss in this business. Cut your losses… Management, leadership, business 101. Is the upper managment listening, or savoring at their tax write-offs? Who is in charge at Liberty?

By Selah?

August 10, 2008 6:59 PM | Link to this

Please Ted…

Buy back the Braves!!!!!

By Serge

August 10, 2008 6:59 PM | Link to this

Embarrasing Effort by Escobar in the 9th inning to get that pop up fly . Reminded me of that play years ago where Jones showed litte effort and Bobby took him out of the game in the midle of the inning.

By Blaine Boyer is a humongous pile of goo

August 10, 2008 7:00 PM | Link to this

In the goociferous tradition of Dan Kolb and Bob Wickman, we present for your gooey pleasure: Blaine Boyer

By N Nine

August 10, 2008 7:03 PM | Link to this

bravos2249..u really think thats gonna last? The guy is a dud ..i dont care what hes done in 11 inn. Thats all it takes you to be convinced? If you REALLY think he’s a fit for braves09..then i feel bad for you. NOWAY!!! A flat tire is more useful these days.

By Yeah, but...

August 10, 2008 7:07 PM | Link to this

Frenchy 85 K’s 9 hr 49 rbi

Kelly 86 K’s 9 hr 47 rbi

Kelly Johnson: .272/.342/.426, 104 OPS+ and nine homeruns from second base.

Jeff Francoeur: .228/.288/.350, 70 OPS+ and nine homeruns from right field.

Not. Even. Close.

By Jake

August 10, 2008 7:13 PM | Link to this

Hey its a very good road trip when you consider what we were up against. We had to face the aces on everyones team. We started the road trip out on such a low with the passing of Skip, so I would have to agree with Boog and Joe. I mean Hampton made two starts on this road trip and actually got a win. Not a lot of people thought that was possible a couple of weeks ago. Yeah it was only a 4-3 trip but go beyond the numbers buddy and look at what we were actually up against. I mean look at how we played at home right before we left. Look at how the rookies pitched and how Chipper and Mac both came back with big numbers. Yeah there are still a lot of problems with the team but lets give them some credit where credit is due.

By kirknga

August 10, 2008 7:17 PM | Link to this

I’m surprised at you people still fuming over JF. You have all been around more than this season so you know that Bobby is going to keep playing him.

JF will get more days off than in the past, but he will be in the regular lineup.

You’ve been through the Reggie Sanders season. You’ve witnessed the seasons-long struggle of Andruw. So what what makes you think any amount of complaining or booing is going to dislodge JF?

Once you accept the reality of Bobby’s philosophy of leaving them in there, it is a little easier to deal with mess. Otherwise you’ll just drive yourself crazy.

By David O'Brien

August 10, 2008 7:18 PM | Link to this

Prattvile, I agree with with you and others about how it’s doing nothing for Francoeur but killing his remaining confidence by continuing to play him every day. Like a grounder finding a guy playing out of position, bases-loaded and other RISP situations are finding Francoeur, and it’s beyond repair for this season. Way beyond.

By Braveheart

August 10, 2008 7:20 PM | Link to this

prattvillenolzfan Oh, I wasn’t taking you to task or anything. I just cited something you said because I wanted to continue my rant about Francoeur and what you said triggered further thoughts about the situation. I agree with pretty much everything you said.

BTW, I went to school at Bama and have to say that you guys have some mighty fine women who come out of Prattville. I also saw some show this morning that Pat Summerall was doing that Prattville’s high school football team is ranked in the top 5 in the country. I thought it was kind of strange that Summerall was talking about high school sports. He should be bigger than that but I’m sure it must have been a quick buck to do the show for him. He at least got to talk about Joe Montana’s son on the show. But when I saw where the football team was ranked, I thought of you and some of those fine Prattville women.

there has to be some resentment by Franceour continuing to play everyday. For a team that has always puts clubhouse chemistry first and foremost, continually playing Franceour is going to come back and bite Cox in the but

I was wondering about this myself. I’m sure most of the players won’t directly throw him under the bus but you have gotta imagine it perturbs them a bit. Some of Chipper’s veiled shots this season about “the younger players not understanding the mental aspect of hitting” kind of hints at some ill feelings from Chipper at some of the Francoeur types wasting the few years he has left to win another World Series title.

By Metropolitan Man

August 10, 2008 7:26 PM | Link to this

Anybody seen KC? Tell him I have not forgotten the bet but if he has here it is, the bet that was made before the season started.

From: Kent Covington [mailto: kentcovington@gmail.com] To: nybest@excite.com Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 14:51:15 -0400 Subject: Braves/Mets bet

Metro, good afternoon! Great day for a Braves win!

OK, here are the terms, once again… If the Braves fail to win 90 games OR if the Mets finish 10 games ahead of the Braves, you win the bet. If not… I win. The Mets last play in ATL Sept. 19-21. If the bet can be mathematically determined by or on that weekend, then we’ll settle up during that series. If it can’t be mathematically determined by that point in time (which I seriously doubt), we’ll have to settle up next April.

Here’s my suggestion as to what we should wager:

I like you’re idea of your shouting anti-Mets stuff… but let’s up the bet a little. When you lose, you will have to stand by the main gate for 5 minutes holding high a poster-board sign, and I’ll decide what that sign says (agreed though, nothing vulgar or offensive. Probably just something along the lines of “Mets suck”)… all while shouting whatever I tell you to say.

Oh, and you’ll be buying the Skip and Pete’s BBQ, and the beverage of my choosing.

If Chipper, Tex, Smoltz, and Huddy all get run over by a train or something… and you luck out and win the bet against all earthly odds… I’ll hold the sign, shout what you tell me to, and buy the BBQ.

Agreed?

KEnt

Excellent bet. I cant see anything wrong with that. Good game today and congrats. Hope everythings goes the METS way because standing out in fornt of Turner in METS gear prasing the braves will send me to an asylum. Let the games begin and continue.

By kirknga

August 10, 2008 7:31 PM | Link to this

Frenchy 85 K’s 9 hr 49 rbi

Kelly 86 K’s 9 hr 47 rbi

Not. Even. Close.

Why isn’t it close? KJ has 390 AB’s and JF 437

KJ’s stikeouts count the same as Francoeur’s. Just because KJ plays second base doesn’t mean he should necessarily have lower numbers than the RF.

Both the Phillies and the Marlins have 2nd basemen that are far outproducing their starting RF.

KJ was expected to have better numbers as well and has underperformed just like Francoeur.

Neither should get a pass.

By fastasballs

August 10, 2008 7:39 PM | Link to this

I wonder if the Braves will suggest to Frenchy that he play winter ball. He’s just so out of whack right now. I don’t think he is picking up the ball very well, how could he be with those swings? His misses can be described in feet rather than inches.

Believe it or not he’s been worse than he was prior to going to Mississippi.

I’m with the rest of you that sending him out there every day is going to destoy him mentally. How could it not?

He hasn’t made his money like Andruw did, prior to his funk season last year. He’s playing for a contract & he knows he probably made a HUGE mistake in not taking what the Braves offered in a similar deal that McCann took.

I feel bad for the guy, but this is Major League Baseball, not the ACC. I have no doubt the Braves give him every shot for next season, but next season there will be a back up plan in case he doesn’t come around. There was none this season because there wasn’t a need based on his prior seasons.

You think we the fans want to win? Sure, but as other mentioned what do you think his teammates think about playing him every day when there are better options? It’s a bad situation & it’s not getting any better. I hope Cox does the right thing & really limits his playing time the rest of the season. It’s for the best.

By 18 Wheels of Love

August 10, 2008 7:39 PM | Link to this

Unce

Tice

Fee tikes on Fenchy

I like Jeff, I really do, but itis time for him to be someone elses problem - not ours. Send him out to KC with a prospect and give us Zack Greinke. You just can’t go into next year with that big of a question mark in right field. You just can’t.

By Serge

August 10, 2008 7:43 PM | Link to this

Kelly might be “underperforming” just like Escobar or Franceour but Kelly “underperofmring” is sitll destroying what weve gotten from Jeff Franceour.

Jeff Franceour will currently post the worst season for an Atlanta brave since Mark Lemke. Hes that damn bad.

So yeah its “not even close”. The difference between Kelly and Franc is staggering. One is an above average player. One is not

By ncscoots

August 10, 2008 7:48 PM | Link to this

it’s doing nothing for Francoeur but killing his remaining confidence by continuing to play him every day.

Doubt benching him for any extended period is gonna do much confidence-boosting, either, though. It’s a tough call.

Not for the blog, of course; I get feeling most here are all for anything to happen to the guy short of being drawn and quartered. But, if the team plans on having him around in 2009, messing with his head anymore than necessary wouldn’t be smart.

Posters need not get their panties ina wad, I’m not defending the guy’s 2008 performance (“putrid” immediately jumps to mind; “brutal” lurks not far behind). But send him down now, with rosters expanding in a couple of weeks? Can’t see how that works in anybody’s favor.

But, shoot, hitting him 8 isn’t doing him any favors, either. That’s only the worst spot to hit when trying to come out of a malaise.

So, what’s best for the long-term for the Braves? Let him continue to reek for another six weeks and pile on another ton of failure, or sit him and let the inactivity eat at his confidence. No good answer to that, to my way of thinking.

By BravesFanInRockies

August 10, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this

kirknga,

KJ has clearly underperformed this season. But to suggest his year is as bad as Frenchy’s is insane, dude.

Frenchy was expected to be a run producer, KJ a table setter.

So the important stats for these guys should not be strikeouts or RBI but OBP for Kelly and SLG for Francouer.

Kelly’s OBP is .342, or a little better than average. (Last year it was .375, or better than Gregor’s — in other words, very good.)

Frenchy’s SLG is .350, or about as good as a light-hitting leadoff man. Awful. (His OBP is also a wretched .288, but that’s fodder for another rant.)

But even if you’re comparing apples to apples, Kelly has made outs 65 percent of the time this season, Frenchy 71 percent of the time.

And BTW, Kelly’s SLG is .426. So if you’re choosing one guy for the lineup it’s Kelly. And the fact that he’ s getting on base (.384) and slugging (.427) better against lefties than righties suggests a platoon is a bad idea.

By Braveheart

August 10, 2008 8:05 PM | Link to this

Hey its a very good road trip when you consider what we were up against. We had to face the aces on everyones team

That’s true. Over the last 9 games, they have gone 2-4 against Sheets, Sabathia, Lincecum, Cain, Webb and Haren. That’s kind of to be expected or perhaps a little better than can be expected against the Who’s Who of National League pitchers these days. They went 3-0 against the other pitchers. Unfortunately, they have got to see Harden on Tuesday. That’s a really tough 10 game stretch: Sheets, Sabathia, Lincecum, Cain, Webb, Haren and Harden.

Overall, they were 3-1 with Jorge and Jair. 1-1 with Morton. 1-1 with Hampton. 0-1 with Chuck. Basically the Braves went 2-4 against good pitchers from the other teams and the other teams went 2-4 against the Braves good pitchers. The Braves were 3-0 against the bad or mediocre pitchers and the other teams 2-1 against the bad or mediocre pitchers the Braves threw out there.

By kirknga

August 10, 2008 8:16 PM | Link to this

Kelly might be “underperforming” just like Escobar or Franceour but Kelly “underperofmring” is sitll destroying what weve gotten from Jeff Franceour.

How is Escobar unperperforming? This is his first season unlike JF nad KJ who both have performed better.Already Escobar is the best defensive SS according to some, so don’t lump in him with the other two who have many more major league AB’s than he has.

KJ has a chance at finishing strong and matching his first full season numbers, but I don’t see how his strikeouts are any better than Francoeur’s.

Kelly has 7 more hits than JF, so to me, if you have two players who have nearly the same offensive results, why is one worse than the other when both have shown they can do better?

Why just sit Francoeur , when you have his fraternal twin still in the lineup?

By BravesFanInRockies

August 10, 2008 8:19 PM | Link to this

ncscoots,

Good points all.

It’s no good to platoon Frenchy because he’s hitting worse against lefties than righties.

However, I can’t see the fault in hitting him 8th when he does play. You do want to give your team a chance to win and if he’s anywhere else in the lineup he’s a guaranteed rally killer. Besides, Bobby has hit everyone other than Chipper, Tex, McCann and Yunel (I think) 8th at some point during the season. Francouer hasn’t earned a pass.

As long as Infante continues to be hot, I say you play him every day and let him rest other guys. Give Yunel and KJ the occasional day off. Play him in LF so that Kotsay and Blanco and yes Francouer get a break. (And sure, give Prado more ABs. I think it was Joe Friday who said he played some RF in winter ball …)

If the team has a chance of making a run (even if it’s for second or third), there’s no excuse not playing the hot hand and using his versatility to your advantage.

By BravesFanInRockies

August 10, 2008 8:23 PM | Link to this

BTW, DOB,

Just heard that Carl Crawford is hurt — injured tendon in his hand — out for at least 3 weeks or perhaps for the rest of the year.

Any chance the Rays would be interested in Kotsay (if he got that far along the waiver wire)? Could the Braves get anything of value for him?

By BA

August 10, 2008 8:24 PM | Link to this

Mark Lemke (aka “little Mr. October”) was one of the all-time great Atlanta Braves. I cannot sit idly by and tolerate this kind of slander. This aggression will not stand, man!

Shine on, Lemmer.

By bloggin virgin

August 10, 2008 8:24 PM | Link to this

DOB, I posted this yesterday but may have been lost in the blogs, and you may have already addressed it previously.

But what will it take to sign Sabbathia? Do the Braves have any reasonable chance to pull it off??

By AJ 25

August 10, 2008 8:26 PM | Link to this

What I don’t understand is why there is not a clubhouse revolt over Booby playing Frenchy day after day as he continues to kill the team. Either the rest of them are a bunch of milque toasts or they just don’t care any more.

No Frenchy? No problem!

By KyleH

August 10, 2008 8:28 PM | Link to this

Vladimir Nunez looks pretty good in the bigs. He’d be a good setup man next year being a former closer and all. I think we can agree that his experience would make him more suitable for the setup job than acosta and boyer. Imagine next year: CL Gonzo SU Soriano(well if he can pitch)if not Moylan SU Nunez LHP/S Ohman (hopefully) RHP Acosta RHP Boyer LR Bennett or Carlyle

I know thats nine pitchers but at least theres options

By kirknga

August 10, 2008 8:30 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies, ok if you want to look at Slug%, and OPS, OBS, even BA, then yes, KJ much better.

But to me, where the rubber hits the road are the RBI’s and HR’s. Unless you’re a table setting guy who steals a lot of bases, or a defensive specialist(ex. Rafel Belliard) who you know is a light hitter, then I’m going to look at how many runs you drive in and that includes homers.

Again, they both strikeout a lot, and I don’t see how Kelly’s are any better than Jeff’s.

I’m just saying that if you take out one guy with a 9Hr’s and 45+Rbi’s and a bunch of K’s, and you leave in another one with 9Hr’s, 45+Rbi’s, and a bunch of K’s, have you really done yourself a complete favor?

By Lew

August 10, 2008 8:33 PM | Link to this

Scoots-I’m not so sure the blog has ruled out drawing and quartering.

By David O'Brien

August 10, 2008 8:40 PM | Link to this

Some stats from my game story:

Francoeur is a dismal 3-for-24 (.125) with bases loaded this season, with seven strikeouts and five double plays grounded into.

All other Braves are a combined 32-for-97 (.330) with bases loaded, with four double plays grounded into.

“I tried to put it in play to the right side, and hit it right back at him,” Francoeur said of the 1-and-2 pitch he hit to start the 1-2-3 double-play.

He was 0-for-4 with two strikeouts to sink his overall average to .226, including .205 in 87 games since April 29, and 10-for-56 with no extra-base hits in his past 15 games.

Francoeur struck out with two on to end the fourth inning, and has a .186 average with runners in scoring position, fifth-lowest among NL qualifiers.

By prattvillenolzfan

August 10, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this

Lost in the Franceour posts I made, I forgot to ask this question.

After today’s effort, how come no one is questioning whether or not we should resign Hampton to a contract next year???????????????

BTW Braveheart, thanks for the Kudos on P’ville, I’ve lived here 3 years now, and I’m amazed at how everything revolves around P’ville football here……definately a fun place to live in the summer/fall…….

By David O'Brien

August 10, 2008 8:45 PM | Link to this

AJ 25, you sound ridiculous with a comment like that (8:26).

So if players don’t “revolt’ over the manager’s decision to play someone, they’re a bunch of “milque toasts” who “just don’t care anymore”?

They won three straight against Arizona, but they “don’t care anymore” because they haven’t revolted over the Francoeur situation?

By Steve from OH

August 10, 2008 8:48 PM | Link to this

*But to me, where the rubber hits the road are the RBI’s and HR’s.kirknga

HR’s=Awesome. Best possile outcome of an AB. Terrific way to tell how good someone is at hitting baseballs.

RBI= Largely dependent on the other people on your team (like runs scored). Terrible metric compared to OBP, SLG, and even (gasp) BA.

Again, they both strike out a lot, but I don’t see how Kelly’s are any better than Jeff’s

Or worse. This is irrelevant. Strikeouts (under most circumstances) are only ever so slightly more damaging than regular outs. Does Kelly get on base? Yes. Does Jeff? No.

End of story.

By CharlieAlphaBravo

August 10, 2008 8:55 PM | Link to this

Too bad about Gonzo…

We already have a “Cobra” on the team anyway, Tommy Glavine…..

Because he strikes.

Wahh, wahhh, wahhhhhh.

Hate to break your balls, but it’s a stupid nickname anyway. We’ll just start calling Blanco “Jet” because he’s fast, and Ohman “Joker” because he’s funny. And maybe “B-52” for Mac because he drops bombs… Wait, that last one’s not so bad……

By brian

August 10, 2008 8:55 PM | Link to this

I agree that the Braves are not helping Francoeur by playing him everyday. I really hope he can snap out of this funk.

What I would do is send him to AA until the Sept 1 call ups and not call him back up no matter what. I would call up Josh Anderson and hit him and Blanco 1 and 2 (or 2 and 1 respectively). If Kotsay gets traded then call up Brandon Jones or another OF and move either Blanco or Anderson to CF.

By Tomas

August 10, 2008 8:55 PM | Link to this

I don’t know what Frenchy has to do to hitting but things cannot continue like this. Bobby will need to start using him a-l-a Andruw. As a 4 outfielder, that would be used as a pinch hitter or a defensive replacement. At least until he starts hitting. The Braves have Infante who is hot, and Kelly who is hitting 315 in his last 10 days, and is finally feeling “comfortable” at the plate. They also have Blanco, and Kotsay who are hitting and getting on base. I’m sorry for Frenchy, but if you can’t hit, you should be benched until he proves he can hit again.

I still will have faith in Franceour even if he finishes the season with a 210 average, and he shouldn’t be traded, but he needs to find what made him so succesfull in his first three year in the bigs.

By BravesFanInRockies

August 10, 2008 8:57 PM | Link to this

kirknga,

If one guy with 9 HR and 45 RBI is getting on base a lot and scoring more runs than another guy who has nearly identical stats in those two categories alone, then sure you’re doing yourself a favor if you givethe first guy playing time.

OBP and SLG are statistics a player can control. How many outs you make (or more important, how few) and how many bases you get when you put the ball in play are up to you.

RBI is dependent on whether someone’s on base when you come to the plate.

I’m with you on HR. And going into this season I would imagine the Braves would have hoped that KJ could approach 20 HR since he hit 16 last year. Likewise the Braves were surely expecting that Francouer’s HR totals would be closer to 2006 than 2007. Not in their wildest dreams would he play full time and hit fewer than he did in a partial 2005 season.

So neither player has done as well as the club anticipated. Kelly’s just not such a major disappointment because he was always expected to be a complementary player not a key run producer.

By McFann ;Ô;

August 10, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this

Bobby’s Cox (in response to a post of yours on the last blog)—

Yeah, I read that quote! (Of course, right?) That was funny!

Dang! I was really hoping the Braves would pull this one off for ya, Wayne! Dangit!

Dare I say it? The on-base streak continues. Heck, if their “out of contention” as so many seem to think, you gotta have something to strive for. (His career high is 26 games…I shouldn’t have said that, should I have?)

Uh, let’s see…goals: I’m lookin’ for McCann to break the SSRFMDBC (Single Season Record For Most Doubles By a Catcher), Chipper to win the Batting Title (and both of the afore mentioned players to win the Silver Slugger), uh…Jurrjens needs something, too…Maybe ROY, but I’ve always thought that should go to an everyday player.

But it’s fun to watch, ya know? There’s still a chance—couple people got a chuckle out of that line from me today. But there is a chance (however small)! Ya know, I mean, look at what the Mets did last year! Maybe the Fillies, Mets, and Marlins will fall on their faces…

Uh…anyway, tough loss. I caught a little bit of the game today…saw what’s-his-name hit into a DP with the bases loaded…

“Mongoose”? Really? Hmm…”Mongoose”…

By Deep Throat

August 10, 2008 9:05 PM | Link to this

How is Escobar unperperforming?

Well you say Kelly Johnson is underpreforming and he has better season stats than Escobar, so….

Francoeur, aka Mr. Out, has the lowest career OBP of everyone who played today except for the playing-way-over-his-head Omar Infante. That is not acceptable for a right fielder. No other team would still be playing this guy. Even the Mariners, Pirates and Royals would have jettisoned him already. It’s pure biased favoritism.

My guess is Francoeur being a spokesman for a big Atlanta Braves’ sponser, Delta, is a big reason for his inexplicable hanging around still. We all know just about everyone else on the team except for maybe Chipper would be getting a lot less playing time if they were doing what Francoeur is doing. There really is no other logical reason or explanation for this.

By fastasballs

August 10, 2008 9:07 PM | Link to this

I can see it now, a group of bat wielding Atlanta Braves players stormed the office of manager Bobby Cox earlier this evening. One unidentified player was reported to have been hoisting a driver, although this has not been confirmed.

Unconfirmed reports also have Chipper Jones as the leader of this angry mob. A line up card of grievances against the playing of one Jeff Francoeur was read to a stunned Bobby Cox.

More at 11:00 as details become available.

By Moms Mabley

August 10, 2008 9:08 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB, I agree with Media, instead of taking potshots at blog members, how about posing an occasional tough question to Bobby? It comes with the territory.

By rene ottesen

August 10, 2008 9:11 PM | Link to this

just a comment… maria carrey have NO more #1 singles than elvis presley…he had 18 in the US and maria has had 18 #1 hits in the US…that is the same,not more than him…

By kirknga

August 10, 2008 9:11 PM | Link to this

HR’s and RBI’s =SCORES!!!

The team with the scores the most runs in a game wins. When they change that to the team with the highest OBP, OPS, or BA, you let me know and then that will be the end of the story.

You don’t score you don’t WIN.

Sorry you’re reading the wrong story.

By Tomas

August 10, 2008 9:14 PM | Link to this

Frenchy should go to winter ball, maybe a less stressfull enviorment would clear his head.

By David O'Brien

August 10, 2008 9:15 PM | Link to this

Moms, thanks for the advice. My responses come with the territory, too. It’s a blog.

By David O'Brien

August 10, 2008 9:21 PM | Link to this

Tomas, I agree with you on using Francoeur as fourth outfielder, if he’s gonna be on the major league roster. It’s come to that. Others are playing too well, and I’d give Josh Anderson a chance. I’d like the mix of Blanco/Kotsay/Infante/Anderson in OF.

I also know Braves are in a tough spot with Francoeur, don’t know if they want to go through the whole circus of sending him down again or not. But if they’re just gonna ride it out till September rosters are expanded, then I don’t know how they can keep running him out there with him struggling to this degree. I mean, no extra base hits in 15 games, a .205 average since late April, under .190 with RISP and falling by the day….

It’s ugly. Ugly, ugly, ugly.

By Tomas

August 10, 2008 9:22 PM | Link to this

DOB,

What are the stats on Escobar when chipper is on the lineup, and what are they when he is out. Escobar has suddenly gotten hot, maybe Chipper’s presence gives Yunel much better pitches to hit. Without a doubt I think that was the reason of his struggles this last two weeks without chipper in that spot.

By kirknga

August 10, 2008 9:22 PM | Link to this

Deep Throat

I say Kelly and Jeff are underperforming because I have a better baseline from which I can compare this years stats too.

With Escobar, he hasn’t yet completed his first full season at one position yet. So to say he’s underperforming, as to what? May, April? He doesn’t have 1000 AB’s yet.

So no, I’m not going to say a player is underperforming as compared to a couple of months ago versus players who are underperforming on a season-to-season basis thus far.

I’m not protecting JF, I’m just saying KJ should get some blame too and leave Escobar alone until at least this time next year.

What’s so unreasonable about that?

By Kentavo

August 10, 2008 9:25 PM | Link to this

The Francouer situation is maddening, but we all know what’s gonna happen, so no need to get worked up about it. Booby will keep him in the lineup even if he’s hitting .125. Then very, very late, Francouer will admit to having an injury and will sit out the last two weeks.

Meanwhile, Booby could be coming up with an outfield mix that could provide more offense with switching in Infante and even Norton, or at least taking a look at a youngster from the farm.

I think it’d be one think if Frenchy had a huge contract, but he doesn’t. Would anybody else hitting .225 with no mega contract get to play everyday?

By Kentavo

August 10, 2008 9:25 PM | Link to this

The Francouer situation is maddening, but we all know what’s gonna happen, so no need to get worked up about it. Booby will keep him in the lineup even if he’s hitting .125. Then very, very late, Francouer will admit to having an injury and will sit out the last two weeks.

Meanwhile, Booby could be coming up with an outfield mix that could provide more offense with switching in Infante and even Norton, or at least taking a look at a youngster from the farm.

I think it’d be one think if Frenchy had a huge contract, but he doesn’t. Would anybody else hitting .225 with no mega contract get to play everyday?

By BravesFanInRockies

August 10, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this

kirknga,

You’re right. The team that scores the most wins. And how do you score runs? Well you can hit homers. That’s the easiest way. No disagreement there.

Next, you get on base (that’s OBP). Preferably third or second because it’s easier to score from there than first (that’s SLG). But first is OK too. Better than making an out.

But unless you drive yourself in, RBI is totally dependent on other players’ getting on base ahead of you.

If you can’t understand that basic concept, then there’s no need continuing this discussion. Believe what you want to …

By BA

August 10, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this

Deepthroat, you must have been joking. A Delta conspiracy theory? What is this, professional wrestling? If that was a joke, forgive me- sarcasm doesn’t always translate well in the ‘ole MIB blog.

Yeah, Mabley- folks like you should be able to post whatever asinine rhetoric they choose, with no repercussion whatsoever.

And DOB, you go in there tomorrow and burn all those bridges, then you’ll get no cooperation, and you’ll have nothing to inform us of. Who needs quotes? Well all just discuss the tunes (good one today, by the way. Future suggestion: The River by the Boss).

I hope MY sarcasm came through on that last paragraph. But I DO like the Boss.

By BA

August 10, 2008 9:31 PM | Link to this

Good call, Tomas (@ 9:22).

By David O'Brien

August 10, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

Tomas, I think you’re probably on to something, probably right. If I had those stats readily available, I’d be glad to give them to you. But I don’t. That would take a bit of research, and I’m sitting in a hot (they opened the roof after game), smell (they’re spreading fertilizer all over the field) stadium, with a flight to catch after I go get some dinner and get the rental car gassed and returned.

By McFann ;Ô;

August 10, 2008 9:37 PM | Link to this

Oh man! Another K? That’s 48! This time he was caught looking…

I saw his PB. Oh yeah, that lead to some runs. Big time bummer, but they would have lost anyway.

Aaannd another guy stole off him…dagnabit…This is why I suggest he win the SS, not the GG. (BTW—How was the throw? As good as his last few, or no?)

Night, all!

By N8

August 10, 2008 9:46 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH

“I’ll say this for the last daggone time: HGH DOES NOT ENHANCE ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE!!!!”

Maybe the LAST time should have been the last time.

Check the link below, for some of the MANY things that HGH can do for people (including athletes).

Under the “other effects of hgh” segment, some other things that would help an athlete are listed as followed:

• Restore muscle mass • Decrease body fat • Improve sleep • Increase energy • Improve vision • Improve memory • Increase stamina

Yeah….because if it didn’t help athletes….they would still use it, right?

Naive, you are, Young Flanigan.

By David O'Brien

August 10, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this

Kentavo, you’re exactly right: it is a maddening situation. No easy solution, though the one currently being used certainly has run its course. Long since run it.

You referred to the long-term contract, or lack thereof. Remember how many folks here last winter and spring were saying how urgent it was that the Braves get Francoeur signed to a long-term contract? Wow, does that seem like a long time ago, or what?

Fortunately for them, they saw no sense of urgency to get something done. Just think if he had a contract like McCann. You talk about a mess. This would be a problem 10-fold what it is now.

By N Nine

August 10, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this

Frenchy comeback player of year 2009!

By Steve from OH

August 10, 2008 9:53 PM | Link to this

Kirknga, you’re right. The team with the most runs wins. But that doesn’t make RBI a good stat to evaluate performance. I’m sorry, dude, but it’s too dependent on how the other people on your team perform.

Look at Jeff Francoeur’s 2006 season. 29 bombs and 103 RBI’s. According to your metrics, a great season. In 2006, Jeff OBP’ed a Bonds-esque .293, OPS+ed a Ruthian 87, and EqA’ed a whopping .240(!).

Jeff made outs at a huge rate. That hurts your team. His RBI totals are a reflection of the guys who hit ahead of him, if anything.

Now, granted, guys who are good hitters tend to get more RBI. RBI help your team, without a doubt. But to critically analyze a player’s performance, RBI’s are terrible.

Here’s another thing. Last season (2007) here are the top 5 teams in MLB in OBP:

1. New York Yankees

2. Boston Red Sox

3. Philadelphia Phillies

4. Colorado Rockies

5. LA Angels

All 5 made the playoffs. Boston won the World Series. Seems like OBP does impact a team’s performance, eh?

By N8

August 10, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH

Forgot to add to my last post, that though I think using HGH can help athletes. Of course taking HGH isn’t gonna help uncle Steve (assuming “Uncle Steve” isn’t an MLB player), hit a 96 MPH fastball, or help a pitcher command his pitches better.

But the HGH can help him recover from injuries sooner, thus being on the field more. You DID see DOB’s numbers about the Braves’ record with Chipper in the lineup, right? Imagine if he was able to “do something” to remain in the lineup.

As for pitchers? What helps a guy gain command? Repetition and practice, right? Hmmm. Imagine if a pitcher could throw more often, and not have the lingering affects of throwing so much, and increased stamina LATE in a season, when most pitchers wear down.

THAT being said, I don’t think Francoeur was on the juice. I just don’t think he’s as good as we all thought (and hoped) he would be.

Plenty of time for him to adjust and change my mind, but he’s had all season to do so and hasn’t. Why start now?

By Steve from OH

August 10, 2008 10:03 PM | Link to this

N8

So you’re saying a website SELLING HGH is more credible than a journal article published by the Brown University School of Medicine?

Dude. I did a HUGE research report on this and presented in front of a bunch of MD’s at the Medical School I’ll be attending next year. If I was wrong, they’d have called me out so fast it would make your head spin.

Did you actually read this article anyway?

There’s plenty more.

By Run Heap Run

August 10, 2008 10:03 PM | Link to this

**It’s once, twice

Three strikes to Frenchy**

Ok now that was funny. If only he would just strike out more often. I’d rather him take the one out than get ambitious and try for 2 every time.

By David O'Brien

August 10, 2008 10:03 PM | Link to this

bloggin virgin: Speculation is that CC will ask for at least a Santana-sized contract (six years, $137.5 mill), and I’d imagine one of the big-market teams will do it.

It’s a risk, as it is with any pitcher. Again and again, we’ve seen teams regret signing pitchers to long-term deals. And in his case, a power pitcher who’s huge and not in great shape, risk might be even higher than usual.

But I think it’d be a wiser investment to spent it in him than the injury-prone Sheets, for sure. Just look at their track records, their innings, wins, injuries, ERAs, everything.

Still, don’t know if Braves will be willing to wade in those long-term, huge-dollar waters. I think it’s much more likely they trade for a top-tier pitcher, perhaps not an absolute top-of-the-charts No. 1 pitcher like CC, but a co-ace type guy to go with Jurrjens.

Still early. Haven’t heard names yet.

By BA

August 10, 2008 10:04 PM | Link to this

Wow, big n8 and little n9 at the same time. I’m having trouble seeing the resemblance, however.

On the other hand, what if they HAD signed Francoeur already, and he HADN’T pumped iron all winter…

Maybe that’s what happened in an alternate universe. Wonder if DOB can do string theory?

What if coach DIDN’T blog when he was wasted?

What if McFann could stay up for these West Coast swings? We could have won ten more road games!

What if DOB listened to Britney Spears? This is getting scary.

By N8

August 10, 2008 10:06 PM | Link to this

DOB

You can tell Gonzo that I’m “goin’ with COBRA!! (spoken in the voice of George Costanza, telling the gang that he’s “goin’ with JERK STORE!” as a rebuttal to his boss’s jokes).

I’m sure he won’t mind. After all, we could call him Francoeur if he really makes us mad.

Just kidding of course. But I really do like Cobra. So tell him he can log in and blog with us to make his case, if he so pleases.

By Steve from OH

August 10, 2008 10:16 PM | Link to this

N8, I’ll go ahead and quote the American Journal of Sports Medicine (not selling or promoting HGH) here “growth hormone excess leads to acromegaly, a disease with excess morbidity, including a myopathy in which muscles appear larger but are functionally weaker.”

Growth hormone does decrease body fat. Which is a good thing. Increase memory? Increase Vision? I’ve never read anything that supports that.

By rfsbkr

August 10, 2008 10:18 PM | Link to this

why not trade chipper while you can get smething in return. The Braves need to get younger and besides, they are not going to win any time soon. Will the farm system evr develop a star player? Doesn’t seem like it. Who was the last good pitcher to come out of the farm system? Does anyone know. Tom Glavine…20 years ago.

By David O'Brien

August 10, 2008 10:19 PM | Link to this

N8, that was good. I’m conjuring an image of Costanza saying it now….

By kirknga

August 10, 2008 10:20 PM | Link to this

Steve, I’m evaluating wins. Anything else is really beside the point is it not?

Do people complain as much if you strikeout 150 times, or if your BA is .260 if you hit 35 Hr’s and 100+ Rbi’s? Do they really care at that point what your OPS is? No they don’t and the reason is because you are scoring runs and scoring others.

If JF had 17 Hr’s and 65 Rbi’s right now, would people really be as angry? No, they wouldn’t because he would be closer to producing the amount of HR’s and Rbi’s that we expected.

If JF in all the bases loaded situation merely flied out deeply, or hit a soft grounder to the right side or SS and runs scored those times, would people be so angry? Would they point to the fact that his BA, OPS, OBS, just all went down? Or would they point to the fact he got a run in?

When people were debating which LF the Braves should go after, most people said they wanted the guy with the most HR’s and Rbi’s, because those are the areas the Braves fall short.

If someone wants to believe one starter with 9Hr and 45ish Rbi’s and lots of strikeouts is markedly better than the another with the same, knock yourself out.

I’m just saying KJ shouldn’t escape scrutiny. People are looking to JF only as a disappointment and I’m saying he isn’t alone.

By Jeff321

August 10, 2008 10:24 PM | Link to this

I would like nothing better than for Frenchy to get his head back in the game.. But, we’ve all seen how pitiful he looks this year. Meanwhile, I found this earlier and find it highly relevant to the current topic. _ Today marked the second consecutive game in which the starting outfield consisted of Ramirez in left, Kemp in center and Ethier in right. The manager said that Juan Pierre and Andruw Jones would remain on the bench until he felt he had a reason to change the lineup.”We’re looking to win every game,” Torre said. “Right now, it’s team first and individuals after that.” _ Too bad Bobby Cox doesn’t have share this philosophy. Because it’d be a whole different ballgame with the best players on the field. What a shame.

By BA

August 10, 2008 10:27 PM | Link to this

Remember he had the HUGE plate of cocktail shrimp?

By Steve from OH

August 10, 2008 10:29 PM | Link to this

BTW, Tommy Hanson threw six scoreless innings tonight, giving up two hits, walking none and striking out 10.

By uga-brave

August 10, 2008 10:29 PM | Link to this

dwight shroup and george costanza, two of the greatest characters ever.

By CharlieAlphaBravo

August 10, 2008 10:38 PM | Link to this

… Because he strikes…

Is this thing on??

By Steve from OH

August 10, 2008 10:41 PM | Link to this

Kirknga, you’ve got some good points. But keep in mind, the objective of any at-bat (regardless of whether anyone is on base or not) is to not make an out. Outs are the only thing that hurts a team when it is batting. Jeff makes lots of outs.

Home Runs and RBI’s are tremendously beneficial to your team. So is OBP. If you can hit homers, knock in runs, and get on base when you’re not hitting homers or knocking in runs, then you are way, way more valuable to your team then if you either hit a homer or make an out. That’s the distinction between Jeff and Kelly. That’s why Kelly is markedly better. What’s so hard to get that getting on base is so much more valuable to your team than making an out?

That’s why I love Adam Dunn—he hits homers, drives in runs, and gets on base.

By THB

August 10, 2008 10:42 PM | Link to this

Kirknga-You say you’re evaluating wins, and ignore that top 5 OBP teams made the playoffs? OBP is way more important than RBI and HR, although those numbers are also very important. I would take a team full of Connor Jacksons than a team of Frenchy’s (2006).

By Renegator

August 10, 2008 10:45 PM | Link to this

Has Infante become an everyday player? It seems like he has been in the lineup everyday since Chipper has been back. Granted that has been only 3 games.

I wouldn’t mind them moving Kotsay in a waiver deal and starting Infante in LF everyday.

By bravos2249

August 10, 2008 10:46 PM | Link to this

Frenchy was expected to be a run producer, KJ a table setter.*

Call me crazy but if a table setter strikes out more than a run producer that ain’t good.

So the important stats for these guys should not be strikeouts or RBI but OBP for Kelly and SLG for Francouer.

OBP is overrated if you have that many K’s. It obviously means that you either get hit by pitches,are inconsistent or a power hitter. Which neither are power hitters.

Comparing Escobar to anyone is dumb. It’s his first year starting. His numbers are around the same as last year. That’s called consistent. He had enough ab’s last year for pitchers to be able to know him, so he’s actually doing decent.

Also the thing about Kelly getting on base and scoring runs…if you want to go there Kelly’s scored 5 more than Yunel in 6 more games. If Kelly, while batting 1st & 2nd, got on SOO much wouldn’t Chipper have more rbi.

By CharlieAlphaBravo

August 10, 2008 10:48 PM | Link to this

DOB:

I’ve always been a big TP fan, but shouldn’t some of the blame for Andruw’s performance in ‘07 and Frenchy in ‘08 be attributed to him?? I know that every now and again a big-league hitter or two will lose their swing, but two in two years? And this drastically? Maybe it’s just a coincidence, or maybe it’s not…

By Robert S

August 10, 2008 10:48 PM | Link to this

Good point, Jeff321. Bobby’s obsession with player loyalty has cost this team. The object of the game is to win, and that can only happen when you field the best team possible every day.

Sure enough, Cox puts Francoeur back in the lineup, he comes up to bat in a crucial situation, and duffs it again. He’s 3-for-25 with the bases juiced this year. Cox has done this time and time again, fielding a team with certain players that can’t get the job done in crunch time. “Playing the hot hand” doesn’t seem to be a concept that Bobby Cox is familiar with. That’s part of the reason why Joe Torre has four world championships to Bobby’s one.

By StingerSplash

August 10, 2008 10:59 PM | Link to this

DOB can ask all the tough questions of Mr. Cox all day long — and may just do that — and Mr. Cox is under no obligation to give him an answer to anyone else’s liking.

By BravesFanInRockies

August 10, 2008 11:03 PM | Link to this

kirkinga,

You’re right. If JF had 17 HR and 65 RBI, no one would be talking about him as a fourth OF or wondering if he should be demoted.

I think the difficulty discussing Francouer is that he may be unlike any other everyday player in the major leagues occupying a run-producing slot in the lineup this season — as in significantly worse. No other team I know gives significant plate appearances to a corner OF with offensive production of .228/.288/.350.

Even Endy Chavez, Ryan Langerhans and Willie Harris are more productive than Francouer, and I dare say people who don’t watch the Braves regularly would think Frenchy is a better hitter than those guys.

As several denizens have mentioned before, this may be payback season for JF; until 2008, he drove in runs (yes, RBI) at a much higher pace than he should have, given his OBP and SLG. Now he has “regressed to the mean,” as they say.

Ryan Howard is hitting .240 and may strike out 200 times by the end of the year. So why is he so much more productive than Francouer? Well, he’s slugging nearly .500 (vs. .350), and he walks about twice as often as Frenchy (11.2% vs. 6.3%.)

Those “outs avoided” — plus the additional power — add up.

By Steve from OH

August 10, 2008 11:03 PM | Link to this

OBP is overrated if you have that many K’s Braves2249

Oh, God. There’s like 8 million things wrong with this statement. First, how is getting on base (under any circumstances) overrated? Let’s see…you didn’t make an out. You’re on base (meaning you can score a run if Mr. 100 RBI Jeff Francoeur is hitting behind you). You didn’t make an out (twice for emphasis). All very good things, if you’re a hitter.

THE ENTIRE POINT OF HITTING IS TO NOT MAKE OUTS. IF YOU DON’T MAKE OUTS, THEN YOU WILL SCORE RUNS.

Besides, strikeouts are only slightly less productive than normal outs. If Kelly flies out to shallow center instead of striking out, what’s the difference? They’re still outs, and they still hurt your team in any case.

Once again: OBP is never, ever overrated.

By kirknga

August 10, 2008 11:06 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH and THB

With due respect, the point was raised about K’s, Hr’s, and Rbi’s. I don’t discount OPS but that wasn’t what the point that was raised.

OBP is not destiny. Let me ask you something? Does the team with the highest OBP=World Series Champion?

The Braves won their only WS against a team with gaudy OPS, and OBS, and Slug%, and BA, and on and on. Why? Because despite all of that they got shut down and Justice hit a HR.

The Braves of this season lack HR’s, they lack people who can produce runs. They have a decent OPS, and for most of the season they’ve had a great BA.

And I’m still wondering why one guy who strikes out a lot and has 9Hr’s with 45ish Rbi’s, escapes blame while another player with almost the same numbers doesn’t. Are you saying I’m supposed to take comfort that KJ has a higher OPS and OBS? Is that it?

By BravesFanInRockies

August 10, 2008 11:08 PM | Link to this

bravos 2249,

OBP is overrated if you have that many K’s

Please explain in English.

By Run Heap Run

August 10, 2008 11:10 PM | Link to this

For me, the difference in KJ and Frenchy is that KJ was never shoved down our throats as the NEXT. BIG. THING. KJ never appeared on the cover of SI under the headline “The Natural”, KJ never did commercials for Delta, KJ doesn’t have dozens of jersey’s with his number and name on the back for sale in the fan shop, KJ didn’t send word thru his agent that he is looking for a 10 year/55 million dollar “similar to David Wright” deal. Oh and I’ve never seen a KJ “hero” commercial on sportsouth. Have I been disappointed in Kelly at times this season? Damn right. I believe that dropped ball vs the Phillies was the point of no return for this season, but at least after it happened KJ did have the decency to show a little humility. Something I have yet to see from Viva la Frenchy.

By 18 Wheels of Love

August 10, 2008 11:10 PM | Link to this

Only one way to keep Bobby from running the french man out there…get rid of the French man. AA or send him somewhere else.

Seriously, how do you split ST next year with a guy in right field that hit the Mendoza line the previous season? Ain’t gonna happen folks. Anyone else catch Wren talking about the team at the trade deadline? He had to backtrack in 2 separate interviews to include Frenchy in next years plans…he was barely an afterthought.

Francoeur and prospect to KC for Grienke. It’ll happen. Dayton is the only GM out there that Wren doesn’t have to beg to take Frenchy. Kind of like how we dumped Davies on him.

I also do not see us going after Sheets or CC…that’s not our style, even with money. Maybe a Lowe type, but even that is doubtful. Like DOB said, we’ll trade for a pitcher or two.

By kirknga

August 10, 2008 11:25 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies

Again, all we’re saying(I think bravos2249 is saying the same thing) is that don’t just point the finger at JF. KJ deserves some blame as well, and that Escobar is newer so don’t blame him too much.

The debate about OPS and OBS and all that is a classic one and this blog has not been any exception to that throughout it’s lifetime.

JF and KJ are both high-strike out, low homer, middling Rbi producers at this point in the season. And they are both underperforming in those areas as compared to previous seasons.

I hope both get hot and finish the season strong. I wouldn’t bet one breath on it, but that’s what I hope. I’m willing to bet that given a choice, most fans would rather see them hit more homers and drive more runs in than to walk more and hit a bunch of singles and a double here and there thus raising theirs and the teams’ BA, and OBS.

By Brett Butler fan

August 10, 2008 11:31 PM | Link to this

In case you missed it, today when the Braves were only behind 4-0 with 2 on and 1 out, JF was coming to bat. Joe Simpson said, “Hey, maybe Jeff can walk into one and score a couple of runs”. YES, HE ACTUALLY SAID THAT! Webb then proceeded to make JF look silly,hacking wildly at strike three. What a comedian that Joe Simpson is!

By Possibly from Frenchy’s next blog at 5:58

“3) ‘Cheesed’: That means ‘annoyed’. Let’s use it in a sentence: Terry Pendleton is cheesed again because he spent two hours working with me yesterday and I’ve already forgotten everything he said.” More great humor! I’m still laughing!

By Run Heap Run

August 10, 2008 11:33 PM | Link to this

Anyone who thinks the Braves will get a top tier pitcher like Sabathia hasn’t been a Braves fan very long. Anyone who doesn’t see that the Yankees, Dodgers, or Red Sox will get Sabathia hasn’t been a fan of baseball very long.

The Braves will get someone, they have to, but it will be more along the lines of Garland or Dempster. I don’t see Derek Lowe and his problems being a good fit with the Braves but it could happen…

By Brett Butler fan

August 10, 2008 11:34 PM | Link to this

Oops, I almost forgot, R.I.P Isaac. Thanks for all the great music.

Go Braves!

By Steve from OH

August 10, 2008 11:34 PM | Link to this

kirknga, well, first off, Kelly plays 2B, so he really isn’t expected to put up power numbers comparable to a corner outfielder. Secondly, yes, take comfort because he makes much less outs than Jeff, which is, of course, beneficial to any team. Like I’ve said before, K’s are not really as harmful as people make them out to be.

It’s true that OBP does not necessarily equal WS champs. I’ve always been a big “pitching first” guy anyway. Good pitching keeps opposing teams to a low OBP, which is what we (probably) did in 1995. I can’t find an actual figure anywhere, but I’d put money that it was lower than .340. But, in general, OBP (or EqA) is the best hitting metric out there. I guarantee you that most (smart) teams value a .400 OBP over a .300 BA and 100 RBI. Sorry.

By GeorgetownKid

August 10, 2008 11:39 PM | Link to this

Mr. O’Brien,

I have a quick question for you about Charlie Morton. Several of your quotes of Morton have him saying things like “this was a good outing, especially for somebody like me who doesn’t have much confidence.”

You also refer to him as “amiable” and “smiling sheepishly.”

In stories, he frequently refers to the fact that he does not have much confidence, which I view as an odd thing to say about oneself.

From how you protray him, both in your stories and on this blog, he seems like a genuinely nice guy who is very mild-mannered, but he seems like a real shinking violet (so to speak).

While a great guy to sit next to on a plane, this doesn’t seem like the make-up of a big-time pitcher.

My question is, am I correct in my perception? What is your take on the guy?

Thanks!!

By cooper

August 10, 2008 11:41 PM | Link to this

JJ as a co-Ace?

JJ is a great 3A at this point. I like him a lot but he is young and has shown he can be inconsistent.

W/O Hudson the Braves need a top flight Ace (CC, Halladay or bust) and 1A/2 for 2009.

Again I just don’t see viewing JJ as ace in need of a cohort as a safe SP strategy for 09.

Way too risky.

By kirknga

August 10, 2008 11:45 PM | Link to this

Steve why isn’t a 2nd baseman expected to put up power numbers?

Utley, Ugga, De Rosa,Brandon Phillips, Orlando Hudson, all have better power results than their RF’s, and Jeff Kemp isn;’t that far behind his RF.

The days when 2nd basemen were assumed to be low run producers have been over at least since Kemp and Alomar were in their prime.

By Tomas

August 10, 2008 11:49 PM | Link to this

Yunel Escobar has is 95-334 with a 284 AVG when Chipper is in the lineup, and when he is not he is 17-74 with a 230AVG. Yunel stats are much better when chipper is in the lineup. Chipper just makes this team completely different.

By Run Heap Run

August 11, 2008 12:08 AM | Link to this

The LA media is calling for Andruw to be sent to the minor leagues while the Atlanta media tiptoes around the Jeff Francoeur experiment.

How ‘bout an article something like this AJC?

By kirknga

August 11, 2008 12:10 AM | Link to this

If the Braves have $50+ million to spend next season, with Hudson and Chipper(with options) the only costly commitments but only for a couple of seasons, why isn’t the Braves can’t over Sabathia Santana money?

Who are they going to owe big money to after 2010?

You mean to tell me they can’t pay a Cy Young winner $20 million out of that $50 million? Why because he’s fat? He’s looking pretty darn good for a fat boy since he came over. Surely insurance would cover if he drops dead on the mound or something.

Unless it is some type of incentive laden deal, there is no such thing as a safe , low-risk contract.

And if the Braves trade for a starter, will they have enough to get a big bat? Is it really that much safer to give a big contract to a LF than a pitcher?

JJ is a #3. Do we expect the magic to continue and Campillo become our #3 with Morton and Jo Jo as 4-5? If that’s 4/5’s of next years rotation then aren’t serious about contending for now.

By Jeff

August 11, 2008 12:19 AM | Link to this

Maybe Frenchy is just too thick to be able to snap out of his season-long funk at bat. Maybe he just can’t make any positive adjustments at the plate. Maybe he is a clone of Andruw. Anyway, he has become totally useless to the team, his teammates and himself. Continuing to play him will just embarrass him and hold him up to public scrutiny. Cox can’t hide him in the line-up by batting him eighth.By insisting on keeping him in the line-up, Cox may have destroyed anything left of Frenchy’s career. He may not be strong enough to ever overcome the psychological ramifications of the dismal failure he has been all season long. Yes, Cox’s misuse of Frenchy makes it practically non-sensical to ever consider keeping him on the time after this year.

By TennesseePaul

August 11, 2008 12:22 AM | Link to this

I think I got this summed up right. Here is Yunel’s production with regards to Chipper…

Split     PA  AB  R   H XBH RBI BB SO  AVG  OBP  SLG  OPS
Total    456 405 56 114  26  49 42 54 .281 .350 .378 .728
W/CJ     364 327 46  95  21  38 32 43 .291 .355 .394 .749
W/O CJ    92  78 10  19   5  11 10 11 .244 .333 .308 .641
Bat 2-3  214 194 29  59  15  25 17 24 .304 .363 .418 .781
In Front 361 325 46  95  21  38 31 42 .292 .355 .397 .752
Behind    94  79 10  19   5  11 11 12 .241 .337 .304 .641

Some noticable differences.

By N8

August 11, 2008 12:24 AM | Link to this

Steve from OH

I just grabbed the FIRST article that had “positive” effects of HGH.

If it wasn’t “good” for something, then MLB (and ALL OTHER SPORTS) wouldn’t have banned it, right?

You more than likely, have done more research than I.

I’m NOT disputing that. All I was saying, is that many of the “advantages” that are allegedly involved with using HGH, while not directly will improve “athletic ability”, they would give already gifted athletes an advantage over athletes NOT using the drug.

Wasn’t trying to call you out (when reading my posts back, it appears as though I was), just trying to make a point.

By David O'Brien

August 11, 2008 12:53 AM | Link to this

Run Heap Run, who’s tip-toeing around anything? A few days before Francoeur was sent to Double-A, we wrote an entire blog about why the Braves shouldn’t worry about marketing plans getting messed up or No. 7-jersey-wearing fans being turned off (there was speculation at the time that that was playing into the decision), and that they should worry more how it could be interpreted by some fans if the team continued to run him out there every day — that winning wasn’t as important as marketing, etc.

If you’d like, we can find that blog again and link to it.

We’ve also had columnists write about his struggles, etc.

And also keep in mind, couple of differences between Francoeur and Andruw:

1. Until recently, Francoeur was hitting some 80 points higher than Andruw and at least hitting an occasional homer.

Entering today’s games, Andruw had hit .161 with three homers, 14 RBI and 74 strikeouts in 205 at-bats. He is, without question, the worst-hitting position player in the majors this year.

As bad as Francoeur has been — and he’s been real bad — he’s been significantly more productive than Andruw. Francoeur has hit .226 with nine homers, 49 RBI and 85 strikeouts in 438 at-bats.

Again, that’s .161, three homers, 14 RBI, 74 strikeouts in 205 at-bats for Andruw, and .226 with nine homers, 49 RBI and 85 striieouts in 438 at-bats for Francoeur.

Andruw, at this point, would kill to have Francoeur’s sorry numbers.

And 2. The Dodgers have four outfielders who are clearly outperforming Andruw, and had three outperforming even before getting Manny.

The Braves did not have quite so obvious alternatives for most of the season, when they were holding out hope that Francoeur would get it going.

He didn’t, and it’s past time to pull the plug. But if Bobby Cox and Frank Wren still believe that Francoeur gives them a better option than using one of their utility men in the OF or bringing up Josh Anderson, or if they want to keep Francoeur up here because they need to see if he can turn it around, or if they believe sending him down a second time would do more long-term potential harm than good, then what do you propose than the AJC do about that?

You really overestimate the role of the media if you believe we have the power, or should have the power, to demand moves be made. Our columnists can certainly write that it should be done, can express their opinion about the subject. Me? I’m a beat writer, and I’m supposed to report on what is happening and give my insights and analysis on what it means or why it happened.

It is NOT my job to demand that management make moves. I’m a reporter, not a columnist. And here, I’m writing a blog, so I can give you my opnions about things, with a lot more leeway than I get in the paper.

Again, let me know if you can’t find or didn’t read the blog I wrote about Francoeur a couple days before he got sent down.

By Bearcat

August 11, 2008 1:00 AM | Link to this

Francoeur needs to ride the pine and watch Josh Anderson fill in for him. How many times do we need to be reminded of another Andruw coming to the plate with that sub 230 average and he does the same thing Andruw did every time he came to the plate with the bases full or several to bring in but always strikes out on a high heater? I was hoping he would at least strike out today with the bases full but he happens to make weak contact so he can kill the inning & hit into a double play. Why not pinch hit for him in the future in that situation or let him sit like Joe Torre did with Andruw? At least the Braves were not dumb enough to pay Andruw $50K a day 365 days a year.

By David O'Brien

August 11, 2008 1:15 AM | Link to this

CharlieAlphaBravo, by that logic, regarding Pendleton, if Andruw’s slide in 2007 is to be laid at the hitting coach’s feet, then what does that say of the Dodgers’ hitting coach this year? He must be the worst in history.

Also, did Pendleton do especially good coaching with Andruw during the 2005-06 seasons, when he hit 92 homers and drove in 257 runs? Then he did bad coaching with him in 2007?

You know, I wish I had so many people ready to make excuses for me every time I didn’t do my job well, to blame it on editors or someone instead of me.

Sometimes, players just stink. Sometimes, they get old and beat up in a hurry. Sometimes, their butts fly straight back on almost every single swing, the way Andruw’s does these days, and it’s not his hitting coach now or last year’s fault that he continues to do it, because Andruw is a 30-year-old man and if he doesn’t listen to the coach, he doesn’t listen.

And sometimes, a young player just doesn’t develop as soon as we thought he would. Sometimes, they don’t develop, period, and it’s not anyone fault but their own. Other teams develop a book on a young hitter or pitcher, and they start to exploit his weaknesses after he’s been in the league a while.

If that player isn’t capable or is unwilling to make adjustments, if that player had so much success doing things one way, and isn’t comfortable enough to adapt and apply things he’s been taught and use them in the game itself, rather than just in batting practice, well, that’s not the hitting coach’s fault. Or the manager’s. Quite often it’s only the player’s fault. Maybe he just can’t do it. Maybe he just won’t.

The coach or manager can’t go out there and stand behind him at the plate and yell for him to take this pitch or swing at that one, or tell him to keep his butt in or not fly open with his front side, or not drop his hands the way Francoeur has been told again and again to not do.

And if benching for a game or two, or sending him to the minors, doesn’t do anything, well, it’s sometimes not as simple as saying, you’re out of here, like you might a player the team didn’t or doesn’t have big plans for. Sometimes, it’s not that easy.

You have to have patience. Sometimes, that patience is rewarded. It has been many times for Cox since I’ve been on this beat.

Sometimes, it is not rewarded. It hasn’t been with Cox vis-a-vis Francoeur this season. It hasn’t been with Torre vis-a-vis Andruw this year.

Everyone wanted to make excuses for Andruw — it’s his knee, it’s his back, etc. Well, he had his knee ‘scoped, took a couple months off, and he’s stunk worse than ever since he got back. Now what? It has to be the new hitting coach? Or perhaps T.P.’s bad coaching from a year ago has poisoned him? Absurd.

People want to say it’s Frenchy’s eye. It’s his foot. it’s hit hitting coach. Well, you know what? Maybe it’s just Frenchy. Maybe he’s not that good right now.

Maybe he’s a kid with a ton of raw talent who can hit balls nearly 500 feet in BP, but in games he’s gonna have to make some changes, apply what he’s been taught in BP to the actual games.

I wish just once in a while, people would stop trying to find excuses and point the finger at someone else, and instead just point it squarely on the player or players who aren’t living up to expectations.

Usually, that’s a damn good place to start.

By David O'Brien

August 11, 2008 1:20 AM | Link to this

uga-brave, you are so correct about those two great tv characters. actually, there’s 3-4 classic characters on The Ofice, not just Dwight. And there were that many on Arrested Development, too. Got three seasons of fhat show on DVD box sets. Never gets old.

By Jake

August 11, 2008 1:57 AM | Link to this

Thanks DOB for saying that. I’ve been defending TP for a while now. I don’t understand why when a player is struggling it is somehow always the coaches fault. I have a feeling TP isnt saying go up there and just take a wack at everything. I mean if TP is the blame for Frenchy’s struggles this year shouldn’t he also be commended and given the credit for how Chipper, Mac, and Infante are doing. I really don’t think there is anyone to blame right now for Frenchy’s struggles but Frenchy himself. Not to pile on the guy but his problems come from bad pitch recognition and not making the adjustments. The pitchers have figured out his weakness and they keep going back there. He has shown that he has not been able to make the adjustment so they are going to keep pitching him that way till he does. To tell you the truth he doesn’t really get a lot of good pitches to hit so its not surprising that he is not getting hits. He doesn’t get good pitches because he keeps swinging at the bad ones. I think I remember TP saying earlier that he agrees that Francoeur should be agressive, but he should be agressive in the zone. The only way you can do that is by laying off the bad pitches and making them give you better pitches to hit. Till he does that I don’t see Frenchy busting out of this slump anytime soon.

By nolie

August 11, 2008 2:18 AM | Link to this

I’ve been the biggest Francoeur apologist/supporter, blah, blah, blah. But enough is enough. I know Cox and all think they are showing him love or whatever by continuing to play him but it’s not love. It’s really kind of cruel. It’s like having a mentally ill or addict family member or friend whose mental illness or addiction you keep enabling.Braveheart

I’m not so sure thats the case BH. I think they are continuing to play Jeff to give him every opportunity to show them that there is a chance he can come back. It’s pretty important for them to at least have some idea what they need this winter. Jeff is an important cog if he can get back to previous levels, and with the season already lost at this point it is important to get the best feel that they can about him. I would br surprised if they don’t continue in the same vein.

By Quack Quack

August 11, 2008 2:47 AM | Link to this

The team with the scores the most runs in a game wins. When they change that to the team with the highest OBP, OPS, or BA, you let me know and then that will be the end of the story.

You don’t score you don’t WIN.Kirknga

LOL. what a doozie that one is. You are confusing team stats with individual stats. RBI/RS are team stats and are of course necessary to win games, but are terrible indicators to use evaluating an individual players production.It’s not like those aren’t going to occur with another equivalent replacement player. I know that a lot of old fogies(both age-wise and mental-wise) can’t get past that sticking point, but it is what it is. Suck it up and move on to the newer, more reliable stats if you want anybody to give your stats-related posts any respect at all..or don’t and give us all an oft-needed chuckle.

By captain Midnight

August 11, 2008 2:51 AM | Link to this

No modern team has ever came close to winning anything while produceing so few home runs by a combined outfield of misfits. Francoeur has been a joke and he keeps saying he is on the verge. Just let it look like we have a rally going and let Frenchy come to bat with the bases loaded. End of rally.

By N Nine

August 11, 2008 3:08 AM | Link to this

Enjoyed reading all the debates tonight. This Frenchy failure has gotten to many of us and we need to relax. Even DOB seems a bit frustrated with us going OFF in wrong directions regarding Frenchy. Its safe to say we need a break for all this. Please bring Anderson and put Frenchy part time! It makes sense for the team and our mental health..Good night guys..better day tomorrow!!!!

By Coach ( Watch the Olympics)

August 11, 2008 3:28 AM | Link to this

Josh Anderson extended his hitting streak to eighteen games on Sunday. He has hit .427 during that time period with an OBP of .466 and 11 stolen bases.

Since the Teixiera trade, Tex has hit.325 with 2 HR’s and 9 RBI.

Casey Kotchman has hit .205 with 0 HR’s and 5 RBI in the same time period. Not good, so far.

The Bravos took three out of four from the Diamondbacks. Which is damn funny considering that they could have had Teixeira if they hadn’t low balled Atlanta.

As for the War involving Russia/Georgia/South Ossetia, you might want to watch this.

The Truth Behind the Lies

By DirtyDawg

August 11, 2008 3:32 AM | Link to this

I don’t know just what’s best in terms of how we talk about Francoeur’s lack of production. I suppose we need to be nice in order not to hurt his feelings…then again I was all set, like early last month, to see what the Braves could do without him this weekend. In fact, he said as much in the piece on Saturday - he had planned to ask off today and have that and tomorrow to ‘relax’. Then when Bobby did sit him yesterday, Jeff was expecting he wouldn’t play today either, and was resigned to the idea. So what happened? For some reason he’s in the lineup and killed a couple of more key rallies that might have made a difference. I’m sorry, I’m more worried about my feelings than Jeff’s and I’m pretty much of a mind that he needs to sit more than he plays - at the very least platoon him - even though I doubt if he’s hittin’ lefties any better than he’s hittin’ righthanders.

By nolie

August 11, 2008 3:38 AM | Link to this

OBP is overrated if you have that many K’s Braves2249

THE ENTIRE POINT OF HITTING IS TO NOT MAKE OUTS. IF YOU DON’T MAKE OUTS, THEN YOU WILL SCORE RUNS.

Besides, strikeouts are only slightly less productive than normal outs. If Kelly flies out to shallow center instead of striking out, what’s the difference? They’re still outs, and they still hurt your team in any case.

Once again: OBP is never, ever overrated.SteveFromOhio

you been reading my mail Steve? I’ve said the same thing any number of times here and on other boards. I did my undergraduate work in Ohio, maybe that’s the connection between us? ;-)

By Coach ( Watch the Olympics)

August 11, 2008 3:42 AM | Link to this

Call your state Senator and tell them the truth.

From the Horses Mouth, Joe Vestas an American

By Michael

August 11, 2008 6:23 AM | Link to this

The truth is, from an offensive stand point, the Braves have one of the worst performing outfields in the National League. Until that situation is fixed next year might not be any better than this year. The big question is going to be can Jeff bounce back. Can he make adjustments and become a better hitter?

By Run Heap Run

August 11, 2008 6:52 AM | Link to this

DOB You’re right and yes I remember the blogs and articles about it just before Frenchy was sent down. I’m just frustrated and baffled by the whole situation…at least this season doesn’t mean anything. Still doesn’t make it any less perplexing and Jeff seems to have zero self awareness when talking to the media. The guy gets benched and his comment was “I was going to ask for a day off today anyway”??? Ugh. Shutup.

By TIMEFORCHANGE

August 11, 2008 8:01 AM | Link to this

I would never pay that much for a pitcher again. Not after Hamptons contract and what that resulted in. Thats just to much. I really wish major league baseball would put a cap on these players. Maybe not in the money but in the contract length at least.

By David O'Brien

August 11, 2008 8:15 AM | Link to this

I just got home after redeye flight, turn on the radio and hear that Isaac Hayes died. Now that was a music legend. And a bad mother… shut your mouth.

By David O'Brien

August 11, 2008 8:18 AM | Link to this

Nolie, EXACTLY right at 2:18 a.m. You hit it on the head.

By DAP

August 11, 2008 8:54 AM | Link to this

i just think sabathia is going to get more money than a pitcher is worth. the braves COULD sign him if they want to, but it wouldnt be smart. there are better choices out there, as far as cost effectivness.

id would make him an offer, but i wouldnt get into a bidding war for him.

By Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera

August 11, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this

The AP obit makes no mention Isaac Hayes’ greatest work — his performance as Rockfish’s former cellmate on “The Rockford Files.” Cool show!

By chrisklob

August 11, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this

DAP, my fear about Sabathia, or any of the other “big name” FA pitchers is not about the money, it’s more about the number of years they are going to demand on their next contract. Long-term contracts for SP’s have a pretty dicey history. You actually don’t have to look past the Braves’ dugout to see Mike Hampton and the effect he’s had on this team the past three years. Look at Schmidt, Zito, and K. Brown too. I’m sure that somewhere out there you can find a SP with a long-term deal (say 5 yrs or more) but I can’t think of one off the top of my head. There’s just far too much risk involved.

Unless Liberty has plans to seriously increase payroll over the near AND long terms, signing one of these guys is a HUGE risk for the Braves. The last thing this franchise needs is to tie up a huge percentage of payroll just to watch the guy sit on the DL for an extended period of time. Worse yet, what happens if the guy can’t pitch up to expectations (i.e. Zito)?

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George Santayana

FWIW, I personally prefer the idea of trading for an ace rather than signing one in free agency.

By Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera

August 11, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this

Gandolph Fitch — that was his name. Rockfish called him “Gandy.”

By NCBravesFan

August 11, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this

DOB Check my 4:15PM from yesterday.

I guess Robo-Darth Vader Chef ain’t comin’ back to South Park. And that’s just sad.

By 18 Wheels of Love

August 11, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this

Arrested Development is on a continuous loop on my bedroom TV. Never gets old. Never.

“I’ve made a terrible mistake.”

By Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera

August 11, 2008 9:39 AM | Link to this

I think it also was Santayana who said the definition of insanity is posting the same thing over and over and expecting a different response.

By Shaun

August 11, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this

chrisklob, Good post. I agree. Signing pitchers to big, long-term deals is risky. However, it’s probably a risk the Braves need to take at this point; what we might call a calculated risk.

Also, there are obviously certain guys not as risky as others. The Giants should have known better with Zito. The Giants seemed to be too impressed with the win totals and ERA, but ignored the declining K rate and the rising BB and K/BB rates for Zito.

CC Sabathia’s K and K/BB rates have actually improved over the years. They will likely level off soon but the team that signs him should get a quality pitcher for several more seasons. The question will be can the Braves afford to out-bid the Yankees or Red Sox or Angels for his services? Or can the Braves entice him some other way? And if not Sabathia, then who? Should be an interesting off-season with regard to pitchers.

By 22oz

August 11, 2008 9:48 AM | Link to this

Anyone watch “Atlanta Braves Straight Up” last night? Will Ohman definitely stole the show. Favorite movie quote was a scene from the Big Lebowski. But what got me was the “Who would you want to play you in a movie” Answer: Samuel L. Jackson. They probably coulda had the entire show with just his interview. And maybe Tim Hudson’s. I hope they resign him, he is frickin hilarious.

By McFann :Ô:

August 11, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this

BA What if McFann could stay up for these West Coast swings? We could have won ten more road games!

Thanks for the complement! Haha…But I’m not so sure it’s true…

Well, the Fillies were losing to the Pirates yesterday. But then, the Pirates put in my old “pal”, Tyler Yates. He gives up three runs, and that’s that. Fillies win. So glad the Braves ditched that guy…Course, now they’ve got Boyer…

By McFann :Ô:

August 11, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this

22oz—

When was that on?

By McFann :Ô:

August 11, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this

Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera—

Why do want the head of Francisco Cabrera.

By Archbishop of Canterbury

August 11, 2008 10:00 AM | Link to this

Shocking!!!!! A team out of the pennant race starts to play better down the stretch. Nothing to do with pressure having been neutralized and the relaxed state with nothing on the line???

Wonder how many GMs and owners—Nice study for Georgia Tech—have been fooled in the last 75 years by a team’s upbeat performance in last quarter of a season with nothing on the line??

Maybe if Mike and Tommy put on good finishing kicks the Bravos can re-up them long term and with a SURE to be healty Soriano, and Bouncing Back Smoltz at 42, and Hudson returning in August—ALL the pieces are in place for Braves to contend for 2nd World Series championship in the last 50 years!!!

By Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera

August 11, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this

Simple, McFann — I root, root, root for the Pirates.

By McFann :Ô:

August 11, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this

Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera—

I see…

What do you think of Yates?

By DAP

August 11, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this

chrisklob amen, buddy. i agree. longterm contracts for pitcher arent to smart, unless it for a young pitcher, and you are buying out free angent years.

but, there are risks, no matter what. what if the pitcher you trade for sucks or gets hurt? then your traded tons of young guys and your screwed.

either way its a risk. the best thing ever is to have your own young pitchers, like the giants do. but, you could try for 20 years and never have what the giants have now.

i am looking for the braves to swing at least one good trade for a pitcher this offseason…but it might be for a guy like JJ, who we didnt know was going to be as good as he is. im not holding my breath for a roy halliday trade.

By MDBraveFan

August 11, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this

DOB - couldn’t agree more with your 1:15a post. Personal accountability. What a concept?! All the “coaching” in the world won’t help, if player doesn’t listen. Also, agree with Nolie’s 2:18a post. It is quite painful to watch but one thing is for sure, Jeff won’t be able to “blame” the team or mgmt for his performance. Because he will have been given EVERY opportunity. More than the “not-as-hyped” player would have been given.

By Shaun

August 11, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this

DAP, good points, too. Relying on young pitchers is at least as risky as signing big-time free agent pitchers. It’s a delicate balancing act to know which pitchers to go with and how much to spend and how many older guys and how many young pitchers to rely on.

By nolie

August 11, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this

BASEBALL AMERICA PROSPECT HOT SHEET

No. 12 TYLER FLOWERS, C BRAVES Team: high Class A Myrtle Beach (Carolina) Age: 22 Why He’s Here: .625/.727/1.250 (10-for-16), 5 R, 4 2B, 2 HR, 9 RBIs, 6 BB, 1 IBB, 1 SO The Scoop: Myrtle Beach has long had a reputation as a power-sapping park, but Flowers has avoided that roadblock this season. He’s steadily gotten better as the season has progressed—and perhaps bringin in the fences has helped. He batted .256/.391/.411 in April and has seen his month-by-month numbers climb. He’s also showing very good plate discipline as he’s been walked 86 times and struck out 85. He’s considered the best receiver in the system behind Clint Sammons, so his offensive production is looking like a nice bonus for the Braves.

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this

Good points on CC, everyone. It’s a tough call, I agree. But I wouldn’t compare him to Zito, as Zito was already declining when he signed and CC isn’t. He’s got a 3.11 ERA this season and a 1.132 WHIP, with 175 K in 180 IP. What I like most is that he’s thrown close to 200 innings in every season he’s been up. Last year he threw 241 innings!

Downsides: He’s 28, so if we signed him for 5 years, he might decline during the last 2 or so years of the deal. He’s also a bit heavy, which worries me. With that jerky windup I could see him blowing out a knee.

He’s obviously the guy I’d want, but so does everyone else. I’d give him 5 years and pretty much a blank check? I probably wouldn’t go more than 5, though.

By Lew

August 11, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this

Archbishop-Make sure you pray extra hard that the final paragraph of your 10:00 post Never comes true.

By Lew

August 11, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this

Francisco’s Head-Guess you know all about Frustration, then.

By cityofdecatur

August 11, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this

Jeff could shoe what he can do in Mississippi just as well as in Atlanta and EVERYONE would be better for it. the fans the teams and he can get a dose of reality and not the ‘your the greatest’ pampering he’s been fed since he started playing sports. No offense to Jeff but that’s the case for the average joe and should be here. Whats best for the team in this case is what’s best for Jeff.

By Lew

August 11, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this

Francisco’s Head-Whenever I hear Skip’s “Braves Win” call, I will always retain an image of the camera panning to the outfield and there in center is Andy Van Slyke just sitting on the center field grass with a look of stunned disbelief on his face. Kind of a Thrill Of Victory, Agony of Defeat Thing.

I’m definitely a Braves’ Homer, but that image has always remained with me for some reason.

By DAP

August 11, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this

lew i always think of that shot of van slyke, too…as excited as we were….can you imagine how down in the dumps pirates fans were?

and with sid’s slide, the pirates fanchise was destroyed. it has never been the same. i can see how pirates fans can still hate cabrera, and bream.

thanx again for the print by the way. i really appreacite it.

By BravesFanInRockies

August 11, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this

Mornin’ folks.

Time to fire up the Jake Peavy/Chris Young rumor mill:

Padres to slash payroll in 2009

By brent a.

August 11, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this

In all sincerity, if you sign a guy like CC to a 5-year deal, and we win for the next 3, are you really crushed if he gets hurt in year 4, and year 5 is a bust?

IMO, the Braves know what they are doing. Frank has a plan, it is not entirely surprising that we (finally) had a year like this one.

We are not a depleted franchise, nor are we a bad franchise, nor do we have a terrible team at the major league level.

However, we do need to make at least 2 major acquisitions in the off-season to compete next season. (Before 1991, we made 3 (that I can think of) - Pendleton, Bream and Nixon).
Now, the landscape has changed a lot, but still, it is possible to bring in 3 key pieces of a championship team in one off-season, while young guys develop.

All that said, if signing a free-agent pitcher to a long-term deal becomes a necessity, it just seems hard to be against it.

No one wants to be paying a guy $20 million in a year in which he can’t pitch; however, if we are going to compete, we may HAVE to do something major like signing a Sabathia, and hope that he (like everyone else on the roster) stays healthy.

All that being said, I think that whatever move is made in regards to pitching, will be seen as a good one, and is likely something that the majority of us are not even considering right at the moment.

By N8

August 11, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this

Coach

“Since the Teixiera trade, Tex has hit.325 with 2 HR’s and 9 RBI…..Casey Kotchman has hit .205 with 0 HR’s and 5 RBI in the same time period. Not good, so far.”

I was thinking the same thing. But let’s reserve judgment on Kotchman until he’s played a couple of weeks with BOTH Chipper and McCann in the lineup at the same time.

Nobody ever claimed that Casey was gonna put up the same numbers as Tex. Also keep in mind that of Tex’s 2 HR and 9 RBI since the trade, 1 HR and 4 RBI were in one swing of the bat (in a loss).

So far, it’s about “even”, when put in relative terms compared to the money they NOW make, and what they WILL make beyond this season.

If Kotchman was/is capable of doing what Tex does for the salary that they both make, NOT A CHANCE IN HELL of the Angels making that trade. None.

By Thrillhouse44

August 11, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

Can you believe the strike was 14 years ago? The Braves may not be playing for much this year, but at least they’re playing.

Would love for the Braves to get CC, but how likely is it? There are other teams with more money who need pitching too. I think pitching is more likely to come via a trade.

By Shaun

August 11, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

What’s not good about the Tex-Kotchman trade? The Braves got a decent player and a potentially decent pitcher for a guy they weren’t likely to re-sign.

By Randy

August 11, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this

Guys -

There is no question why the Braves are playing better… There is no pressure now. They did the same thing last year when it looked over. They actualy played themselves back into meaningful games again in September last year, then promptly choked 5 out of 6 to the Mets. (The ONLY team the Mets could beat last year in the stretch run).

This team is so mentally weak, that they can only perform when the pressure is off. Hate to say it, but that is the M.O. of this team since 2006.

By Shaun

August 11, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this

Randy and others, are the Braves really playing that much better than they have all season?

They won three in a row against a team with a record not all that much better than their own and a worse run differential plus one of the worst offenses of any playoff contender. Before those three wins, they hadn’t won a series in 2-1/2 weeks.

By 22oz

August 11, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

McFann, it was on SS last night @ 7:30. i do know through the magic of DVR that it will be on again Sunday at either 12 or 12:30 pm on SS.

By Mike

August 11, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this

I think it is hilarious to hear people on this blog suggest that the Braves should go after C.C. Sabathia.

Folks, the Yankees have 80 million coming off their books. The Mets have about the same amount we have(40 million or so). The Red Sox have about 30 million coming off.

Braves going to out bid those teams? Please.

Ben Sheets on a 3 year deal makes more sense than Sabathia on a 6-7 year deal.

I believe BravesfanintheRockies brought up the Padres slashing payroll. There is your target = Jake Peavy.

The Braves never sign free agents. They will do it as usual, through the trade route. They’ll trade prospects before investing in a pitcher for 4-5 years.

By Renegator

August 11, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this

Lew

I received my Skip print over the weekned. Dude - it is phenominal. I can’t wait to buy a frame for it and hang it up in my office/man room at home.

You are a true fan and a great denizon. Keep up the good work.

Thanks again.

By DAP

August 11, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this

Since the Teixiera trade, Tex has hit.325 with 2 HR’s and 9 RBI…..Casey Kotchman has hit .205 with 0 HR’s and 5 RBI in the same time period. Not good, so far.”

in fairness, lets look at stats at the beginning of the year…on april 19th, tex was hitting .221 with 9 RBI, and 3HR, in 17 games.

on april 19, kotchman was hitting .323 with 12 RBIs, and 4 HR, in 17 games.

he has played 13 games since the trade.

By etownbrave

August 11, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

DOB

Will the Tuesday service be on TV or radio? Would like to know for those of us stuck at work and can’t get to Atl for the service. Thanks!

By song

August 11, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this

Turner Field has a hex on it. Only 4 homers by all teams combined in August. Hitters Park

Can someone please remove the hex?

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

brent a, great post at 11:52. I agree with you that the Braves know what they’re doing, and I’ve got confidence in Frank Wren to make the moves that need to be made this offseason.

By brent a.

August 11, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this

Shaun

the “playing better” of the Braves has to do with the way that the Braves stepped up and smacked around Davis and Haren. Haren had rarely been hit like that all year, and Davis is a lefty, who had shut the Braves down early in the season.

Also note that the first time the Braves faced Davis, the line-up included Teixeira and Diaz (who went a combined 0for6 against him). On Friday, it was Kotchman and Infante in their places (and they went 4 for 6, with 4 walks).

Saturday night was only the second time all year that Haren failed to go 6 innings.

The patience at the plate, putting the ball in play, home runs etc., on Friday and Saturday is something that was often unseen from this team throughout the season (and may well disappear tomorrow). But, it did nonetheless, represent an improvement over what we have typically seen from the Braves over the course of the year.

Pointing out the “averageness” of the Diamondbacks, does nothing to support a contention that the Braves didn’t play better than usual. Just ask the Nationals, Pirates, and Mets, how important over-all record is, when it comes to how you’ll fare against the Braves.

By McFann :Ô:

August 11, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this

22oz—

Thanks! Maybe we’ll be able to tune in this time.

By ppaddy123

August 11, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this

we all know the Braves will need pitching in 2009. However, we don’t need to get in the Sabathia and Ben Sheets sweepstakes. There will be quality free agent pitching available this off season. A. J. Burnett (14-9 1.44 WHIP) can opt out after 2008. Ryan Dempster has had a strong year with the Cubs (13-5 1.16 WHIP) Jon Garland LA Angles (10-7 1.44 WHIP) His .292 BAA is a little alarming, but it probably would be lower in the National League. Derek Lowe LA Dodgers (8-10 1.25 WHIP) I think Pedro Martinez might even be a free agent.

By McFann :Ô:

August 11, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this

Shaun Before those three wins, they hadn’t won a series in 2-1/2 weeks.

Uh, yeah. So that means they’re playing better right now.

By DAP

August 11, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

the article posted said the the padres might shrink payroll to $40mil…which would mean peavy would be making over 1/4 of the money if they kept him. i dont see them doing that. either they wont slash payroll that much, or peavy is getting traded…his contract is good through 2013. get him.

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 1:32 PM | Link to this

DAP, what would you be willing to give up for Peavy? The Padres would surely ask for Schafer/Heyward/Hanson at the very least…a trade for Halladay would probably be the same.

By Lee in S GA

August 11, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this

They won three in a row against a team with a record not all that much better than their own and a worse run differential plus one of the worst offenses of any playoff contender.

Shaun

Give the Braves some credit for playing better. You also give no credit to the D’backs either. You still sore Arizona made it as far as they did not year, proving that run differential theory is not always a clear indicator of how far a team will go.

By Braveheart

August 11, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this

Would the Braves consider bringing back Edgar as a utility man next season? He could be invaluable as a veteran leader, pinch hitter, fill in at second, third, short and first. A combo of Edgar and Infante would be great.

And Edgar has a great relationship with Yunel and might be great in working with and keeping Yunel in control the way he did last year and in the offseason. As much as I loathe feeding the Pena buddy thing, it does seem like Yunel might need a buddy and father figure like Edgar guiding him at times. And Chipper’s injuries wouldn’t hurt as much if Infante and Edgar were filling in for him all season …… could maybe mean Chipper could have the luxury of going on the DL when he is hurt and get fully healthy instead of going day to day and never getting quite right. Chipper might have had a shot at .400 this season if he didn’t feel the pressure to help the team by trying to play when he was hurting.

I dunno. Just thinking out loud. I imagine Edgar might want to start somewhere and some NL team might think he can fill a starting infield need for them and he might be too pricey for a utility role but I sure as hell would love to have him back here.

By N Nine

August 11, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this

DAP if that payroll number is true, Peavy would be the idea #1 guy to have. Plus he would love Atlanta. Man, I would love to put him in our rotation.

By Bobby's Cox

August 11, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this

DOB

that 1:15 am post was a thing of beauty.

I wish they’d bench the french right now. But unfortunately, that’s not the way it works. I don’t see him turning any corners anytime soon, but that’s not the way it works.

By Lee in S GA

August 11, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this

not year

Last year.

By Thrillhouse44

August 11, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this

Think the Padres will take Melvin Nieves for Peavy? Heck, it worked once.

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 1:45 PM | Link to this

Lee is S GA

I dunno, the top five teams in run differential this year are Boston, Chicago Cubs, Philadelphia, Tampa Bay, and Chicago White Sox. Those all look like playoff teams to me. The only division leaders that don’t lead their division in RD are Tampa and Arizona, and Tampa’s still in the top 5 overall. Seems to be pretty good to me.

By BravesFanInRockies

August 11, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH,

There would be a bidding war for Peavy if he were made available, no question.

But if the Padres were determined to move him, the price would not be nearly as high as if they were simply open to entertaining offers and would keep him unless they were blown away by the return.

If they’re consciously dumping salary, he could be had for less than your offer. (The Pads would surely ask for that much, but they may take less if the goal is to shed payroll.) Think of the moves the Marlins made after their last World Series win.

How much less? Dunno.

By Thrillhouse44

August 11, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this

It’d be awesome to have Renteria back next year. He seemed pretty disappointed to leave Atlanta if I remember correctly.

By ppaddy123

August 11, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this

I have a question for the stat heads……what are Peavy’s home and road splits?

By ppaddy123

August 11, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

Renteria has a $12 mil club option for 2009. Detroit would be foolish not to extend that.

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

BravesfaninRockies:

True. I still wouldn’t give up Heyward, Freeman, or Hanson to get him, though. Our best chips are probably Brandon Jones, Lillibridge, Flowers and one of many SP. I’d like to hold on to all of our pitching depth, but I know that that’s probably not feasible.

By brent a.

August 11, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this

It would be interesting to snag Peavy in similar fashion to how we grabbed Hudson.

Gregor Blanco/(Chuck Thomas) anyone?

By Shaun

August 11, 2008 2:02 PM | Link to this

brent a and McFann, let me clarify: My point was that the three-game winning streak may not be a result of less pressure. A lot of it may just be that they played an inferior team.

By Braveheart

August 11, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this

Renteria has a $12 mil club option for 2009. Detroit would be foolish not to extend that.

I know the Tigres have a club option but do you really think they would extend that? Edgar has a woeful OPS+ of 76 this season, his D at short isn’t that great anymore and he has had trouble in the AL as a player. The Tigers might be better off not extending that option and going 3 years younger and giving Furcal $13 to $15 million.

By bravos2249

August 11, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this

song that might have something to do with only 3 games being played at the Ted in August.

Apparently it’s hard to click through the net and look at the schedule.

By DAP

August 11, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this

steve from OH what would you be willing to give up for Peavy? The Padres would surely ask for Schafer/Heyward/Hanson at the very least…

i would try to avoid giving up heyward, but it would be tempting. its going to depend on what the padres want as well…will they want all minor leaguers, or will they want some guys who can play right way? because we have a few of those to. also on the block if we can get peavy is morton, jojo, or campillo.

peavy is one of those guys who its ok to give up alot for…because he is one of the top 5 starters in the majors, and undercontract for 3 more years, with an option for one more.

By Shaun

August 11, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this

Give the Braves some credit for playing better. You also give no credit to the D’backs either. You still sore Arizona made it as far as they did last year, proving that run differential theory is not always a clear indicator of how far a team will go.

Oh, yes, the Braves do deserve some credit. I’m certainly glad they took three in a row.

Not sure to what “run differential theory” you are referring. Who said run differential is always a clear indicator of how far a team will go?

By oldmike

August 11, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this

DOBI watched some of the game yesterday. Unfortunately it was when Francoeur came up with the sacks jammed and one out after the Braves scored their run. He looked to be blunt, pitiful. Weak grounder back to Webb for the inning ending DP. Game over. I keep seeing the same thing with him over and over. His left shoulder is flying out. He has no chanced unless the pitch is on the inside half of the plate, a mistake, and belt high. I can’t help wondering why he doesn’t close his stance like that Blue jay several years ago. Real exxagerated left side almost perpendicular to the plate. That might keep him in more. Another thought. Is his eyesight bad? Your thoughts on these thoughts? One other thing. ESPN seems wanting to annoint Webb as such a great pitcher. Every time I see him it’s 5-7 innings and done. Is it me or could we use more pitchers going deeper into games? I know I am old but the guys in the 50’s - 70’s routinely threw 220+ innings, double digit complete games and still had long careers. Seaver for example in an 11 year span with the Mets averaged 16 CG’s, 270 INN and 7.7 INNP/G. And made it to 20 years in the bigs. Even had a 10 CG 240 INN 15 win year at 39. I know the game has changed, but for the better???

By ppaddy123

August 11, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this

Jake Peavy 2005-2007 away 3.33 ERA, 21-12, 3 CG,

By McFann :Ô:

August 11, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this

Shaun—

Well, maybe the D-Backs are “inferior”, but so what? They won a series on the road! (And that was their first winning-road trip of the year.)

Yeah, it might not be because of “less pressure”, but they did play better than they have been.

Later! (Algebra time…)

By Metropolitan Man

August 11, 2008 2:17 PM | Link to this

Calling KC, calling KC. Its a good thing we didnt bet on which team would make the playoffs, it would have been a push (so far). Anyway do you even read this blog since the braves became sellers? We made this bet in good faith so if any of you bloggers can get this message to him it would be much obliged. I know the season aint over but barring a super hot braves streak and a METS coll… (you know what I mean), you will have to pony up.

From: Kent Covington [mailto: kentcovington@gmail.com] To: nybest@excite.com Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 14:51:15 -0400 Subject: Braves/Mets bet

Metro, good afternoon! Great day for a Braves win! OK, here are the terms, once again… If the Braves fail to win 90 games OR if the Mets finish 10 games ahead of the Braves, you win the bet. If not… I win. The Mets last play in ATL Sept. 19-21. If the bet can be mathematically determined by or on that weekend, then we’ll settle up during that series. If it can’t be mathematically determined by that point in time (which I seriously doubt), we’ll have to settle up next April.

Here’s my suggestion as to what we should wager:

I like you’re idea of your shouting anti-Mets stuff… but let’s up the bet a little. When you lose, you will have to stand by the main gate for 5 minutes holding high a poster-board sign, and I’ll decide what that sign says (agreed though, nothing vulgar or offensive. Probably just something along the lines of “Mets suck”)… all while shouting whatever I tell you to say.

Oh, and you’ll be buying the Skip and Pete’s BBQ, and the beverage of my choosing.

If Chipper, Tex, Smoltz, and Huddy all get run over by a train or something… and you luck out and win the bet against all earthly odds… I’ll hold the sign, shout what you tell me to, and buy the BBQ.

Agreed?

KEnt

Excellent bet. I cant see anything wrong with that. Good game today and congrats. Hope everythings goes the METS way because standing out in fornt of Turner in METS gear prasing the braves will send me to an asylum. Let the games begin and continue.

By TennesseePaul

August 11, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

giving Furcal $13 to $15 million.

Braveheart: I’d agree. On paper that looks like the wiser route, but Furcal is out with back problems… that’d throw up a red flag in my book. He is good when healthy but back problems tend to linger.

By ncscoots

August 11, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

Excuse me? You wouldn’t put Tommy Hanson in a deal for Jake Peavy under club control for 4 years?!?

Now THAT’S something George Santayana could get behind. Wow.

If Jake Peavey truly does become available, the Braves should savage the farm system, if need be. At least among the pitching prospects.

By ppaddy123

August 11, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this

Braveheart Furcal was having a career year 32 games into this season and I’m sure someone will pony up 13-15 mil for him. I don’t think he’s worth it. In my opinion he’s not one of the top 10 SS’s in the majors. The Dodgers over paid for him (who runs that club?) His value is over stated. As for Renteria, his role with the Tigers certainly hasn’t been what it was for the Braves (I think they had him batting 8th) He’s a 2 hole hitter and he thrives there.

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this

scoots, I wouldn’t put him in if I didn’t have to. Definitely not packaged with Heyward/Freeman/Schafer. If it was him and flowers/jones/lilly, then sure.

By N Nine

August 11, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this

It clearly states a “rumor” that the padres “might” slash payroll from this year’s $73.6M to 40M. They could afford Peavy still. Im not fully buying this story yet. With such a bad year there always could be speculation more than anything else.

Frank Wren certainly needs to look into Peavy and be as aggressive as possible. Peavy is who are looking for as that needed ace. Peavy would be better than CC to me. I can see a Peavy rush starting here at the blog! Peavy,JJJ,Campillio,Med FA like garland or others, and morton/Glavine would be just fine!

THINK PEAVY 09

By Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera

August 11, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this

Yeah, Lew, 1990, ‘91 and ‘92 were plenty frustrating, and I took Sid’s slide awfully hard (especially since a rare error by Chico Lind and a plate-squeezing ump were contributing factors, plus Pendleton’s bloop double that started it all landed just barely fair; it simply seemed as if fate suddenly swung to the advantage of evil), but no season or setback has been maddeningly frustrating since the two golden years of 1971 and 1979, when Roberto Clemente and Willie Stargell, respectively, led the Bucs to exciting, seven-game World Series victories. Having golden seasons like those to fall back on serves to offset the frustrations of freak postseason losses and 16 consecutive losing seasons.

So it’s a little frustrating pulling for the Pirates these days, but believe me, I’m nowhere near as frustrated with my team as the majority of those on this blog. Take it from me, folks — you’ll get better conditioned to rooting for a losing team in time. Who’s more qualified than me to say?

McFann, about Tyler Yates, I’ll only say that based on what I saw from watching his struggles as a Braves reliever, he’s been about as good as I expected him to be this season.

By Lee in S GA

August 11, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this

Not sure to what “run differential theory” you are referring

Shaun

The Pythagorean formula which it true 95% of the time but not always the case. Just remember you talking a lot about this last season with the D’backs. Anyway just throwing it out there. As *steve from OH * stated it apllies the majority of the time of how well a team performs.

By ppaddy123

August 11, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this

By TennesseePaul

August 11, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

giving Furcal $13 to $15 million.

Braveheart: I’d agree. On paper that looks like the wiser route, but Furcal is out with back problems… that’d throw up a red flag in my book. He is good when healthy but back problems tend to

Oh and is he really just 31?

By Bobby's Cox

August 11, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this

Leave it Shaun to over-emphasize run differential like this is soccer.

By CharlieAlphaBravo

August 11, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this

DOB:

Alrighty.

I, like most Braves fans, have very little knowledge of TP’s influence over the players. We rarely hear anything from or about him, so it’s hard to make any kind of reasoned judgement about his effect on the team.

That’s why this blog is such an excellent and unique resource. We (the fans) have an opportunity to ask about anything we please and get a response from someone that’s actually on the relative “inside.”

It’s one of the things that’s boosted and reassured my faith in Bobby Cox again and again. Sure, I might not understand all of the logic behind many of his moves, but I’m not there. I don’t see what goes on in the Braves clubhouse every day, and I haven’t been coaching professional baseball for decades. Everyone I know of that has been coaching or playing professionally for any period of time, loves him; and they rave constantly about what a master of handling his pitching staff he is, and how much they love playing for him. Some on this squad have even taken a significant pay cut to continue playing for him. So you know what? The next time we squeeze into an out, or Blaine Boyer gives up a gazillion runs, I’m not going to blame the Cox. Perhaps some of the other denizens should heed this advice as well… But then I suppose they would have nothing else to write about… Hmmm… Maybe that’s not such a bad thing…

By westy12

August 11, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this

The most unbelievable Frenchy stat is 24 plate appearances with the bases loaded resulting in 26 outs. I mean, I could’ve made 2 fewer outs in those situations.

By Efrim

August 11, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

Scoots

I wouldn’t give up Jason Heyward for Jake Peavy. Everyone else is a go, except for Heyward. I’d try to keep Freeman out of a potential deal as well.

By David O'Brien

August 11, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this

Etownbrave, Tuesday service is on 640am….

Oldmike, already discussed Francoeur’s vision ad nauseum. Sorry, I can’t muster the strength to discuss it anymore….

OK, headed over to the memorial service. Again, they’re recommending fans attend the one Tuesday at Turner Field, because the church won’t hold that many today.

By Whoa Nellie

August 11, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this

The Padres play in the NL Worst, which makes them automatic contenders when next season begins. They ain’t trading Jake Peavy, at least not for what the Braves would be willing to give.

By David O'Brien

August 11, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this

By the way, Wednesday is Hoss T-shirt night at Turner Field. Chipper T’s to the first 10,000….

By ncscoots

August 11, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this

Steve, gotcha. Scared me for a minute, man, LOL.

By Coach (Taking the Medication for a Change)

August 11, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this

CharlieAlphaBravo’s 2:42 post is proof positive that he and DOB are the same person.

Either that, or CharlieAlphaBravo is one incredible DOB kissazz.

By kirknga

August 11, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this

It’s good to see that not everyone is sold on the idea that the Braves shouldn’t go after the big dogs this Winter.

I believe they need two starters and a run-producing bat if they are serious about contending. Unless they empyt the farm system they are going to have to pay big bucks to some player(s) somewhere in the process.

DOB mentioned the possible injury risk with Sabathia, but his injury history is less than that of Sheets, Peavy, Dempster, and Burnett.

That leaves Lowe(who has a small history), and Garland.

So maybe sign Garland as a #2 and trade for Justin Duchscherer. The free agent crop of LF is old so that may be the most difficult/risky piece to acquire.

By DAP

August 11, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

looks like the d-backs just got dunn from the reds. thats a pretty good resonse the the dodgers.

By CharlieAlphaBravo

August 11, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

Uh-oh, Coach isn’t happy with me… How did I know I was talking about him??Whatever shall I do? Probably take a nap…

By CharlieAlphaBravo

August 11, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

Uh-oh, Coach isn’t happy with me… How did he know I was talking about him??Whatever shall I do? Probably take a nap…

By N Nine

August 11, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this

Trade alert!!! Adam Dunn traded to Dbacks

By DAP

August 11, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this

another team that we might be able to get an up and coming ace from is san fransisco. we need to be asking about cain and jonathan sanchez. cain is the better pitcher

the giants needs so much, that many players that we have might interest them, and they might be a team that would sign a odaliz perez type to get them by until they can contend again.

By lewie

August 11, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this

are they getting dunn as a rental or are they able to sign him longterm?

By ncscoots

August 11, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this

Efrim, wouldn’t you think the Padres would want some kids a little closer to ML-ready? I mean, cutting payroll is one thing, but they still gotta play the games. Sending a Morton or Reyes or one of that ilk that way means fewer and lower prospects, no?

Hey, since Martin Prado is Placido Polanco in disguise, maybe the Pads take him in a straight-up deal, LOL.

By McFann :Ô:

August 11, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this

Bring Me the Head I’ll only say that based on what I saw from watching his struggles as a Braves reliever, he’s been about as good as I expected him to be this season.

I take it that means you weren’t expecting him to be very good.

DOB By the way, Wednesday is Hoss T-shirt night at Turner Field. Chipper T’s to the first 10,000….

Perhaps we’ll make it in time for that…

By kirknga

August 11, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this

I think resigning Furcal makes great sense if he is healthy. I’d put him at 2nd and use KJ has trade bait.

Say what you will about his errors and overswinging, put his teams have a better record with him in the lineup than they do when he’s not. It was true for the Braves, and is proving true for the Dodgers.

No disrespect to Blanco, but the Braves have yet to replace Furcal has a leadoff threat, and he might return to the Braves for less.

By TexasBrave

August 11, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this

DOB I know that the Jeff situation has been beaten to death but I still have to say that I don’t agree with the Braves trying to give Jeff enough opportunities to see if he can turn it around so that they know what they need going into winter. I believe Jeff has shown the Braves exactly what they are going to get from him. A pridefull/stubborn kid who doesn’t want to listen to those who would help him get better and a cry baby when things don’t go his way (i.e. getting sent down to Miss.).

The season is 3/4’s over, so if Jeff wanted to make any serious adjustments by now he would have done so. The longer the season goes not making adjustments the more difficult it will be for him to make needed adjustments. He is playing for himself not the team.

I believe we have seen all we are going to get from Jeff this season and in seasons to come unless he wises up, and that will not come until some major talk or move (i.e. sent down to the minors) occurs. Better to send him down, sending him the message to either shape up or ship out.

I believe Frenchy has it in him to be a really good player. Unfortunately he has had too much success in his first couple of years for him to admit that change is needed.

By Shaun

August 11, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this

The Pythagorean formula which it true 95% of the time but not always the case. Just remember you talking a lot about this last season with the D’backs. Anyway just throwing it out there. As *steve from OH * stated it apllies the majority of the time of how well a team performs.

I think you or Steve may be misusing run differential and Pythagorean formula.

Run differential is a better predictor of future performance than actual record. The D-Backs had the run differential of a just under .500 team. And this year they are just a couple of games over .500.

Usually teams do play within a few games of their run differential but sometimes they don’t. And if they don’t, they usually don’t repeatedly stray very far from their run differential.

By ppaddy123

August 11, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this

kirknga, the Braves starting LF for 2009 is playing 2nd right now for the Braves. Maybe if he was moved back to LF he could get that “deer scared in the headlights” look off his face. He has never looked comfortable at 2nd. He has good potential as a hitter. I think if the “burden” of playing second was removed he would be more consistent. And as starting pitching… I would trade ANY BRAVES PROSPECT to get Jake Peavy. A prospect is just that……….hasn’t proven a thing on the major league level. And I would try to sign Dempster or Lowe. But hey, that’s just my opinion….

By DAP

August 11, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

signing rafael furcal would be stupid.

By Efrim

August 11, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this

Scoots

I’d offer Charlie Morton, Brandon Jones, Tommy Hanson and Freddie Freeman for Jake Peavy. I think they would accept that. Morton, Jones and Hanson are ready to step up in 2009 and Freeman is the low level prospect they desire. You might have to throw in another low level piece.

Now, I think that is a lot to give up, but it is Jake Peavy. We still keep Schafer, Heyward, Hernandez, Rohrbough and Teheran. Now that you look this through, it amazes me how much talent the Braves have in the farm.

By CharlieAlphaBravo

August 11, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

You’re right Coach. From now on I’ll start blindly disagreeing with everything DOB says, so that no one as intelligent as you calls me a “kiss azz.” I mean, I wouldn’t want to screw up my blog cred. I’ll just start following your example of getting everything wrong always. After all, it’s clearly made you a lot of friends here on this blog.

By CharlieAlphaBravo

August 11, 2008 3:35 PM | Link to this

Super-fun Blog Challenge!?!:

There was a bit of sarcasm in my last post. See if you denizens can pick it out. (Hint: It’s everything except the part about Coach being wrong all the time)

By N8

August 11, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this

DAP

*”signing rafael furcal would be stupid.”

Uh, no. OVERSPENDING to sign Furcal would be stupid. If he’s willing to “come home” for a reasonable two year contract, it wouldn’t be a horrible move.

Provided he WANTS to be a lead-off hitter that slaps the ball all over the field, rather than the lead-off hitter that tried to hit HR’s that the Braves let walk a few years back.

Oh, and that tiny issue of whether he’d wanna play 2B.

I know he’s an incredible talent at SS, but always wondered why nobody has never tried him in the OF. Imagine that arm out there. Dude has speed and some good baseball instincts. But, since we DO have a gaping hole in LF (and maybe CF), going into next year……

By ppaddy123

August 11, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this

To chime in on “The French” discussion….one need only refer to the greatest baseball movie of all time, “Bull Durham” There is a scene where the manager asks Crash Davis (Kevin Costner) that he doesn’t know what to do with the poor play the team has been showing. Crash tells him, “their kids…scarem’” The French has been a golden child since day 1. And I’m pretty sure no one feels as bad about how he has been playing than he does, but…. it’s time for a kick in the pants…..way past time. Everyone talks about the hole in his swing….the hole is in his head. Starting today…every at bat that he doesn’t get a hit or attempt to hit the ball to right….bench him for the rest of the game and the start of the next. His ego or personal pride (whatever you want to call it) needs to be challenged. It’s time to man up. Or time to start new somewhere else.

By Braveheart

August 11, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

Which one is it Cooch? Am I DOB or is CAB really DOB? You have wrongly accused both of us of being DOB in the last week. But being dead wrong has never bothered you in the past. Who’s next? Is Scoots DOB? Lew? Thrillhouse? DAP? OVerlord? RCIB? Bobby’s Cox? Shaun? McFann? Maybe we’re all DOB. If so, DOB is a mad schizo.

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

Efrim, I don’t know if I’d do that deal. Maybe Reyes, Flowers, Jones and Locke. Definitely not Reyes/Morton AND Hanson in the same deal. I’m glad I’m not the GM because it’s a really difficult decision. If we can trade for Peavy and sign Garland/Lowe and Dunn, that would be a fantastic offseason for FW. We’ve got the cash to go for it, too.

By kirknga

August 11, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

* ppaddy123*, Kelly can no lomger play the outfield as before because of his arm injury. Wasn’t that the reason why they decided to put him at 2nd when he came back?

Look, I’d loved to have Peavy, but he has a history of elbow issues, including ligament issues this season. Do we really want to risk acquiring a guy who has a barking elbow?

To me it might be worth paying several million dollars more and get Sabathia who doesn’t come with any red flags except his weight.

Furcal was instrumental in the Braves offense every season he was here. It’s been the same story in LA. Not considering him is stupid.

I think some here are cheap, or either they haven’t come to terms that players are going to be “overpaid”, especially the proven talent.

By DAP

August 11, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this

N8 ”signing rafael furcal would be stupid.”

Uh, no. OVERSPENDING to sign Furcal would be stupid

there isnt any realistic senerio where signing furcal would not be stupid.

By oldmike

August 11, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

DOB Sorry if I ruffled your feathers re: Frenchy’s vision. I am kinda new to this blog. And don’t see them all. Sorta like Frenchy. Do you believe he has problems? You can say just yes or no. That’s all I require.

By ppaddy123

August 11, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

N8 total agreement on Furcal. I can’t see spending more than $10 mil on the guy (I think $8mil is more appropriate) I wish i had $10 for every time he swung for the fence….and whiffed (I used to wish for a dollar, but, you know inflation)

By Jeff321

August 11, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this

Signing Furcal with his bad back would be akin to giving Hampton or Kotsay a 5 year deal.

Once again, no top of the line pitcher is coming to Atlanta willingly. The only shot for that is via trade. No way these guys turn down similiar offers from clubs that haven’t finished in third the last two years, fourth this year, and are managed by Cox who trots out the likes of Boyer and Frenchy on a daily basis.

By ppaddy123

August 11, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

sorry kirknga but you are wrong or misguided…either way. Furcal played on some very productive Braves teams. If what you say is true he would have made the Dodgers more productive. But, alas, they are consistently one of the lowest run scoring teams in the NL.

By CharlieAlphaBravo

August 11, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

Amen Braveheart…. Wait… Maybe we’re all DOB!?!

By Thrillhouse44

August 11, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this

May I have your attention please? May I have your attention please? Will the real DOB please stand up? I repeat, will the real DOB please stand up? We’re gonna have a problem here..

By ppaddy123

August 11, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this

I think the Braves will re-sign Kotsay this off season. Bobby cox loves the guy

By Michael Procton

August 11, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

Jeff…please shut the f* up. You’ve got nothing to base that statement on given we haven’t been able to make “similar offers” to “top of the line pitchers” for several years. Granted, there was the matter of that extension for Tim Hudson, though. That’s seemed to work out pretty well, but would you not call him “top of the line?”

By DAP

August 11, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this

ok, if you ignore the fact that the braves dont need a shortstop or a 2nd baseman, and even if they needed a 2nd baseman, furcal has barely played the position in the majors,

if you ignore that the braves’ biggest needs this offseason are pitching and power,

if you ignore that furcal has missed most of the season with a bad back,

if you ignore that furcal will probably sign a deal worth ten times as much as our middle infielders are making

if you ignore all that, maybe it wouldnt be stupid to sign furcal.

By BB FAN

August 11, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

Dave O’Brien,

I would like to get your insight on the Adam Dunn deal. Why would the Braves not put a claim in for Dunn? The guy is a free agent after this year, he has only ~ 3.5 mill left on his contract for this year. If the Reds did not accept low level or “B” prospects, no deal and nothing lost by the Braves. If the Reds accepted a few “B” prospects or just let him go to save the money, the Braves only owe the ~3.5 mill this year and add a great power bat to left field. They would also have first chance to sign him to an extension if it worked out for the remaining 44 games or get compensation picks in the draft. Also, if they were to re-sign him, the Braves obviously would not lose picks as compensation for it.

I know they saved money by ditching Teixeira. And everybody knows they need power. I know Dunn strikes out a lot but he also walks a lot so he has a good on base percentage along with a league leading 32 homers. I would have thought that would have been an easy decision.

They could have had an inside track on the power hitter they will want in the off season while being able to keep their options open. The way I look at it, unless the Angels decline Vlad’s option, Dunn is the best power hitter available. And if the Braves were to add Dunn or Vlad in the off season along with Sabathia or Sheets and another less talented pitcher, the Braves would be the team to beat next year.

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this

Furcal’s career numbers suggest that this season (while excellent) is more of an outlier than the trend. Fookie’s 2008 EqA: .354(awesome). Fookie’s career EqA: .270 (aka 2008 Kelly Johnson). If he can keep up these numbers, then any team should sign him. But since we’ve got Yunel and need the extra cash for pitching and OF help, we could make a bigger impact with different players.

By Jeff321

August 11, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this

Michael Procton

I was talking about the upcoming off season, not back when Hudson signed the extension.

Btw, I would call Hudson top of the DL.

By kirknga

August 11, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this

ppaddy123

Ok, I could be wrong. Could you show me the numbers that you are using please? I don’t have any problem with revising my statement if the facts prove otherwise.

Isn’t it interesting that the Braves haven’t won the division since he left?

With Furcal you’re getting a player who is going to bat between .270-.290 and steal you 30+ bases a year, scores bunches of runs, and plays solid defense.

Funny thing the Dodgers want to resign him so he can’t be as bad as some here would like to make him out to be.

By THB

August 11, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

Efrim-My most untouchable prospect is Hanson. He’s the most MLB ready and he’s having one of the best seasons for a minor league pitcher.

His overall numbers: 10-4, 2.57 ERA, 122.1 IP, 142 K, 42 BB, and opponents are hitting .177 against. Those are some ridiculously dominant numbers for a 21 year old in AA. Not to mention he has a frame like Peavy at 6’6” and 210.

He’ll have a shot at the rotation next year and he would be my most untouchable this offseason. Heyward is pretty much untouchable and Freeman is close, but they’re far away and Tyler Flowers could be the 1B of the future.

The best available players for trade this offseason should be:

Freeman, Gorkys, Flowers, Rohrbough, Locke, Lillibridge, Jones.

I think we could swing a deal with Gorkys, Reyes, Flowers, and Lillibridge.

By StingerSplash

August 11, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

Anybody else listening online to Skip’s memorial service? Holy Cornelia, didn’t realize it was dusty in my office, you know. All those years of Holy Communion, etc., I can still follow along to the Mass without blinking an eye, even if the head coach at my alma mater got on to me recently for not going.

By N Nine

August 11, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this

I would like to get your insight on the Adam Dunn deal. Why would the Braves not put a claim in for Dunn? The guy is a free agent after this year BB FAN

You also kinda answered your question..he’s a FA..this season’s a wash, why would we spend money NOW? Can you imagine a OF with Dunn .233, Frechy .227 ,and Diaz .250…Now thats the dream team right there! NOT

By McFann :Ô:

August 11, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

The radio just mentioned that Jeff Francoeur and Chipper Jones are pallbearers…

By N Nine

August 11, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this

Another tough streach..Haren,Webb, and now Harden. PHEW. kinda wish we had an ace.

CharlieAlphaBravo is not DOB..DOB is at caray services and would not be blogging! But did bring plenty of laughs.Thx dude!

By columbusbrave

August 11, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this

I am listening to Skip’s memorial service.

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

NNine, Dunn is OBPing around .380. Blanco is in the .370’s I belive. That’s the Dream Team, bro.

By THB

August 11, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this

Here’s what I’ve taken from scouting reports on Thomas Hanson:

He has a mid-90’s fastball (It improved this year 2-3 MPH, which is said to have helped him immensly), 2 breaking balls in a slider and curve (The slider is more sharp) and a solid change. He’s a power pitcher who projects as a #2 starter (Potential ace). He’ll be 22 on August 28, and has 3 straight 10 K performances. It’s safe to say he’s in control in AA and might get called up to AAA for his last few starts.

He’s the best pitching prospect we’ve had since Adam Wainwright. His numbers are sort of similar to Kyle Davies’ minor league numbers, so I hope we don’t rush him until next season (Hopefully midseason). Cole Rohrbough is in Myrtle Beach right now, and look for him to shoot through the minors next year. He has a low to mid-90’s fastball as a southpaw and a plus-plus knuckle curve. But apparently he has improved his changeup a lot and should cruise next year.

Basically, the Braves need an ace and a #2/3. I would say that we trade for Peavy and sign Derek Lowe. Then we have one glaring weakness-a power LFer. If Milton Bradley is worth it, do it. If not, look to Adam Dunn and Pat Burell, or trade.

By Renegator

August 11, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this

BB FAN

Not to speak for DOB but getting Adam Dunn off waivers would have cost the Braves prospects. Arizona gave up 3 to get him. Why give up prospects for a guy who will be a free agent in 2009 when you have already written off 2008. That doesn’t make any sense dude.

If the Braves want Adam Dunn for 2009, which may be a good idea - then they go out and sign him in the off season and it costs them no prospects.

By N Nine

August 11, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this

http://wgst.com/pages/skipcaraytribute.html

skip’s services! we will miss you greatly

By BB FAN

August 11, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this

N Nine,

I know Dunn is a free agent, and that’s why I said only give up a couple of “B” prospects… not anybody significant. If the Reds say no, no big deal…the Braves lose nothing. It’s worth a try though because if Reds say yes or they just say take him to save money, we get the comp picks if he leaves, or we can resign him if it works out for this season. Now, what Ari gave up is not much so far but it depends on what the Reds are getting as the players to be named. I can’t imagine it would be anybody significant.

The Braves are looking for power and Dunn also consistantly has a .385 on base percentage so the .235 avg isn’t as important when you take that and the 40 HR power.

And Matt Diaz is not in the Braves outfield and I doubt he will be next year. So having Dunn in the outfield with his 32 HRs along with Francoeur, Blanco and/or Kotsay would be better than it is now.

I was just curious if O’Brien knew of anything in particular that would keep the braves from trying.

By N Nine

August 11, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this

Priceless: Skip’s likes and dislikes from Ernie

Dislikes: A tie, Long games,Stupid Questions on talk show (infield fly rule)

Likes: Dinner and cocktail…Dinner and cocktail , and Dinner with cocktails.

By kirknga

August 11, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this

Is Adam Dunn worth $13 million? I’d rather pay that to Pat Burrell who is only 2 years older.

My guess is it will be Raul Ibanez who is older, but will cost less but produce similar results. The Braves sign him to a short contract and wait for Heyward to come up.

By McFann :Ô:

August 11, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this

Boy, that shirt Tom Paciorek showed up in has got to be the second ugliest shirt I’ve ever seen on a real person. Definitely the ugliest one I’ve ever seen at a funeral…

I mean, come on, dude! At least wear a suit!

Sheesh…

By StingerSplash

August 11, 2008 5:32 PM | Link to this

God, I miss Jiggs McDonald. What a great voice. Still good to hear him every once in a while when I get to tune into one of his broadcasts.

By BravesFanInRockies

August 11, 2008 5:33 PM | Link to this

oldmike

Speaking for DOB — No.

By Efrim

August 11, 2008 5:37 PM | Link to this

THB

I understand Hanson is the most MLB ready, but Heyward has the highest ceiling out of any Braves prospect. He will be in High A next year and might be able to be in the majors by 2010. There are few major league players I would want to trade him for.

Anway, Hanson is great and will hopefully be in the Braves rotation at some point in 2009. Maybe he gets a Triple A start or two before the season ends. He certainly has proven he is ready for the promotion.

By BravesFanInRockies

August 11, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this

kirknga,

At last we mostly agree. Duchscherer would be a nice acquisition. I’m not sure he and Lowe would both be needed unless the Braves trade JoJo or Morton to get the LF of the future.

Besides, Lowe has a lot of miles on the odometer, if you know what I mean. He may not have 3-4 seasons left and that may be the length of deal he’s looking for.

As for Furcal — he has a similar back injury to the one Kotsay suffered. So he even if he’s basically recovered he might be unusually fragile or may not be able to play full-time.

By N Nine

August 11, 2008 5:42 PM | Link to this

John Schuerholz got me to laugh hard..almost fell on floor—The dinners with Skip! Good work

By BravesFanInRockies

August 11, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this

Give the Dbacks credit for rolling the dice I suppose, but Dunn looks like an odd fit for that team. I mean Jackson (as Joe said this weekend) isn’t exactly a “rangy” OF and Dunn may be worse.

Love his bat but Chase is like Coors or AT&T — you need OF who can go get the ball.

The Dbacks are starting to resemble the 2007 Yankees with too many 1B/LF/DHs on the roster. Problem is, there’s no DH in the National League.

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 5:51 PM | Link to this

Kirknga, Dunn is exactly what we need. Great power, great OBP. He’ll help make up for the lack of HR Blanco hits. He’s got a .306 EqA this season and a career .301 EqA. Compare that to Burrell’s .318/.293. They’re probably a wash on D. Don’t get me wrong, I’d take Burrell any day too, but Dunn’s got better career OBP/SLG numbers. You’ll get a little bit better BA from Burrell, though. FW will take whoever he gets the best price on. Both are miles better than Ibanez (.345 career OBP/.273 career EqA). Tough call.

By kirknga

August 11, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies

I’m glad that we agree on something,that’s a good thing.

I guess I’m one of the several remaining Furcal fans here on the blog. I could swear that when he left, there were lots of upset people here on the blog talking about how much he was going to be miseed. Now people pretend he wasn’t a very good player except masybe a year or two.

Lowe would be ok to me too. I’m not sure he wants to leave LA. Is he still with that newwoman that caused such an uproar? Lowe is more a #3 isn’t he?

Same with Garland, except Garland is younger and going to give you over 200 innings.

By McFann :Ô:

August 11, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this

What it EqA?

By clint

August 11, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this

The Braves are winning more but are they really playing better? The infield defense was horrible on this last trip. Players still can’t bunt and/or move runners.

I have noticed that when the games don’t matter as much (1st 40 games of the season/ any games once you are pretty much out of it) we play well and win. But in June, July and early August we haven’t played worth a darn for 3 years.

We need better players across the board and especially up the middle.

By JEB

August 11, 2008 6:07 PM | Link to this

Well, I’ve been away for a few days and away from the blog. Came in this afternoon and have been reading and catching up.

It’s become clear to me (from reading everyone’s feelings here ) that Francoeur has become the NEW “F-word”!

Now, when any batter goes into a slump he is “Francoered up!” When a batter’s swing is messed up - then his swing is “Francoeured up!” When he botches a play in the field and screws up then we can say he “Francoeured that play up!”

Sounds better and we can say it in front of the kids!

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 6:08 PM | Link to this

McFann, Baseball Prospectus defines EqA (Equivalent Average) as “Total offensive value per out, with corrections for league offensive level, home park, and team pitching. EqA considers batting as well as baserunning (i.e. stolen bases are included).” .260 is set as average, so any EqA above .260 is an above average player. Above .300 is very good, and the very best players can go above .350 (Chipper’s EqA this season is .358, McCann’s is .314).

By McFann :Ô:

August 11, 2008 6:16 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH—

Thanks! .314? That’s great!

Bet those stolen bases helped a lot! ; )

By TennesseePaul

August 11, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this

Let’s fan some old flames shall we? What’s that? You don’t want to? Too bad.

I finished compiling KJ’s games and the pitching results down to the innings he was present for defense. It turns out when this process is taken down to the partial game level, KJ actually has a net positive impact on the pitching numbers for his team. When simply going with games that KJ starts vs KJ not starting, it appears to be a net negative impact he had. But, the countless hours I just wasted show that is not the case….

Pitching     IP  ERA  AVG  OBP  SLG
With KJ  2011.0 4.07 .254 .323 .407
W/O  KJ   485.0 4.12 .260 .330 .407

Effective Results over 2,037 innings of KJ Defense (positive numbers indicate an increase when KJ is playing defense, negative indicate a decrease):

Un-ER - 7
    H -50
    R -18
   ER -11
   HR  35
   2B -50
   3B - 7

And there it is. Updated and complete through today.

By N Nine

August 11, 2008 6:31 PM | Link to this

Steve from OH

Steve for the most part I agree with you on almost all subjects. I do. Dunn would be great for our punchless OF…BUT NOT THIS YEAR. we should save every penny for this offseason.

peavy09

By kirknga

August 11, 2008 6:35 PM | Link to this

Ok, so I’m impressed with the sabermetric abilities of both Steve from OH and TennesseePaul.

So let me ask Steve, why is it that .260 “is set” as an average EqA?

And TennesseePaul, are those those dashes or negatives? It looks as if you’re saying KJ has a negative impact when he plays?

By AdirondackDave

August 11, 2008 6:36 PM | Link to this

The Tex trade looks as good to me as it did two weeks ago. We get a guy at first who has some value and may be our regular at that position for years to come as well as a pitcher who may or may not help in the future.

Here’s the thing to remember about the Tex trade. We were going nowhere with him this year AND next winter we will have just as good a chance to re-sign him as we did before (which is probably slim to none.) So we actually lost nothing and got significant value for him. Kotchman and the other guy are worth more than 2 draft picks who may or may not ever make it to the majors.

By David-ATL14

August 11, 2008 6:38 PM | Link to this

Not DOB but I will answer.

Braves nor hardly any other teams not considered desperate would want the single most overrated player in MLB known as Adam Dunn.

Dodgers get Manny, DBacks get Dunn.

Pencil the Dodgers in right now! No Make that ink the Dodgers in. Dunn is a loser so are the teams he toils for.

By DAP

August 11, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this

kirknga Isn’t it interesting that the Braves haven’t won the division since he left?

With Furcal you’re getting a player who is going to bat between .270-.290 and steal you 30+ bases a year, scores bunches of runs, and plays solid defense.

we havent won since he left, but its not because of the offense. we scored 803 runs in 2004, and 769 runs in 2005 with furcal.

then he left, and we got renteria, and we scored 849 runs in 2006, and 809 runs in 2007.

(runs this year are obviously down)

we scored more in the first two years without him than in the last two years with him.

by the way, im a furcal fan, still. i like him alot. but, he doesnt make sense for a team that is loaded with middle infielders and needs a power hitter. it would be stupid to sign him.

efrim ill bet heyward is in AAA by the end of 2009.

By McFann :Ô:

August 11, 2008 6:45 PM | Link to this

10Paul—

How do you do it? Do you dissect every game, or is there some website you use—or both?

Thanks!

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 6:46 PM | Link to this

N Nine, why should we save every penny? Dunn would rank (this season) on our team, the Atlanta Braves: in SLG, 3rd (behind Chipper and McCann). In OBP, 4th (Behind Chipper, Prado (only 85 AB) and McCann). In HR, 1st. In RBI, 1st. In BB, 1st by a huge margin.

So, basically, the only players on our team better than Dunn are Chipper and McCann. And Dunn’s pretty close to McCann in terms of OBP/SLG. So we would add a hitter similar to B-Mac without the high AVG but with 11 more HR. Seems like a good bet to me. Burrell’s numbers are pretty similar to Dunn’s, too, for those of you who want Burrell. Both would be great pickups for our team.

Not trying to be snarky, but why should we save the $$$? I’d love to hear a good reason (honestly, not trying to be a smart@##, I really do. If you’ve got one, I’d be glad to re-consider my stance).

By Efrim

August 11, 2008 6:51 PM | Link to this

What would you pay Dunn? He is a terror in left field. But he is just such a productive offensive player and is exactly what the Braves need. He is younger than Burrell, but will likely cost more money. I think Dunn will get 5 years and 75 million, at least.

DAP

I’d agree with you on Heyward. Braves shouldn’t rush him, but I am a little suprised that he is still in Rome. Freeman too.

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this

Kirknga, the formula for EqA gives a player’s “Raw EqA,” which is then normalized so that the average Raw EqA becomes .260. It is done this way to be on a similar scale to batting average, for the non-sabermetric types out there, I believe. So, basically, the .260 standard is arbitrary. Shaun probably knows more about it than me, so I’m sure he’ll correct me if I’m wrong.

The formula and explainations are on baseball prospectus in the glossary, if you want to look at their explaination for yourself. I hope this helps.

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 6:56 PM | Link to this

Actually, kirknga, here’s a much better explaination than I gave. Please give it a read, it kinda also explains why BA is much worse than OBP or EqA.

By Braveheart

August 11, 2008 6:56 PM | Link to this

So let me ask Steve, why is it that .260 “is set” as an average EqA?

Because .260 is about a historically average batting average and that is the number we are all used to eyeballing as an average batting average. So they have scaled the number to look like batting average to accommodate what we are accustomed to eyeballing. Makes it easier to understand what we are looking at

By DAP

August 11, 2008 6:59 PM | Link to this

steve from OH why should we spend money and prospects on a guy who may sign elsewhere and get us only draft picks if we arent going anywhere this season? its not just spending money. we would have to give up young players for literally no reason. we arent going to suddenly make a run a win the division because of adam dunn.

if we want him next year, we can sign him without paying him $3mil this year, AND without giving up ANY of our prospects. getting him would only hurt this team.

By kirknga

August 11, 2008 7:01 PM | Link to this

DAP

Signing a leadoff hitter who is a better option at that spot than the ones we currently have on the team is not stupid in my opinion.

I also believe out of all those middle infielders we now have, he is the bestter. So I simply believe that you at least give him a look if he’s healthy. If he is, then he’s a more complete player than any middle infielder currently on the roster.

Frontline pitching, not Furcal is my priority, but I believe the Braves should look to improve at any position. Obviously there are several positions where that really isn’t needed.

By David-ATL14

August 11, 2008 7:05 PM | Link to this

Not about saving money as much as just not wanting Adam Dunn anywhere around.

JP Riccardi(exalted stathead himself) gave us all a look inside the game of baseball and how Dunn is perceived by vast legions inside the game. Not highly thought of at all.

Far different from the “pocket protector set” or the sycophantic scribes at Baseball Prospectus.

Various media scribes confrimed Riccardi’s take: that Yes indeed Dunn is viewed as a far lesser player then some(not all) in the stathead community want to make him out to be.

DBacks are desperate. They will have to hold their nose and play Dunn down the stretch. Guarantee they won’t re-sign Dunn after getting a glimpse up close for two months.

Dunn will be scrambling in the offseason and be only offered a 1 year deal for far less than he makes now.

Kudos to FW for not being anywhere near this train wreck.

By AdirondackDave

August 11, 2008 7:11 PM | Link to this

Anybody know who the agents are for Dunn and Vlad? Thanks.

By BravesFanInRockies

August 11, 2008 7:16 PM | Link to this

kirkinga,

What’s wrong with Blanco in the leadoff spot?

He gets on base more frequently than Furcal. And while he doesn’t steal as many bases as Fookie, he gets caught less often.

Blanco is a great fit for the team — just look at how hard he makes pitchers work. And he’s cheap, cheap, cheap for several more years (during which he could become an even better hitter).

By Lew

August 11, 2008 7:19 PM | Link to this

Braveheart-If Coach thinks I’m really DOB, we could always call in Buster Olney who talked to both of us at Spring Training this year.

By BravesFanInRockies

August 11, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this

Correction: Furcal’s career SB % is higher than Blanco’s one-year total (roughly 3:1 vs. 2.5:1). Though he doesn’t run as often as he used to.

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 7:28 PM | Link to this

DAP, thanks. I thought he meant for next season. My bad.

By Choppinmama

August 11, 2008 7:34 PM | Link to this

22oz- How ‘bout posting some more of what the guys said? The only time I get to watch shows like that or the pre-game shows are during rain delays here in the land of MLB Extra Innings. They cut the game broadcast off 2 seconds after the game is over. Us ex-pat Braves fans really miss the local TV broadcasts.

I even have an ATL friend taping the broadcast from Turner Field tomorrow!

I can’t believe they are considering trading Ohman and his funny personality!

By kirknga

August 11, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this

Thank You Steve in OH and Braveheart, it’s always interesting to me to learn of the various ways people attempt to describe the game.

BravesFanInRockies,

I have been a Blanco fan from the start and have stayed one even when most people here were calling for him to be sent back down.

Furcal has a longer track record. I’m almost always going to go with the veteran with a track record. If there is one area that Furcal stands out over Blanco is average against lefties. Furcal is over .300 lifetime, Blanco is still learning.

Again, I’m not saying that the Braves absolutely must resign Furcal, but if he is healthy I believe he deserves at least an inquiry by the Braves because he was a catalyst when he was here and we don’t have such a guy now.

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 7:38 PM | Link to this

Cole Rohrbough making his debut tonight for Myrtle Beach. Tyler Flowers is already 1-1 with a double.

By keylargo

August 11, 2008 7:45 PM | Link to this

AdirondackDave

Vlad’s agent is Bryan Peters.

Dunn’s agent is Fern Cuza.

By THB

August 11, 2008 7:47 PM | Link to this

Kirknga-There is no reason to sign Furcal this offseason. He’s coming off a back injury and we know how those turn out (Kotsay). He’s going to demand at least 10 million and he’s said already that he wants to resign with LA. We have a young, good shortstop in Escobar and a young, good leadof hitter in Blanco. I see your point that he’d most likely be an upgrade but we need to upgrade pitching to a premium. There’s just too many things standing in the way of signing Furcal this offseason.

By SandyB

August 11, 2008 7:48 PM | Link to this

Is the 10:00 am program from Turner Field going to be broadcast by one of the Atlanta stations? Or on radio like today’s?

By McFann :Ô:

August 11, 2008 7:51 PM | Link to this

BravesFanInRockies Furcal’s career SB % is higher than Blanco’s one-year total

Actually, McCann and Furcal have the same career SB% (77.8%). So what do we need Furcal for?

; )

Choppinmama—

Welcome back! Long time, no read!

By THB

August 11, 2008 8:00 PM | Link to this

McFann-I seriously have been impressed with McCann’s baserunning. He’s smart on the bases and it’s shownl

By DAP

August 11, 2008 8:05 PM | Link to this

kirknga I also believe out of all those middle infielders we now have, he is the bestter.

if thats what you think, thats fine. i dont think he is better than any of our middle infielders, since all of our guys are able to play(no back injuries), and are making less than 1/10th of what furcal will get. plus i like our leadoff hitter.

By keylargo

August 11, 2008 8:08 PM | Link to this

AdirondackDave

Whoops, the memory isn’t what it used to be. Swap those agents. Dunn/Peters, Vlad/Cuza

By Omar Infante is a pumpkin

August 11, 2008 8:12 PM | Link to this

Counting on Omar Infante to be an everyday player in 2009 is a very dangerous idea despite what Cox or Joe Simpson say.

He is simply not a .300 hitter or a .350 OBP guy like his season-inflated in the last 100 at-bats or so numbers have him at this season. He is a career .250-something hitter with a career OBP lower than that of Jeff Francoeur’s. He hasn’t suddenly figured something out after around 2,000 career major league at-bats and well over 500 career major league games played.

If the Braves want to believe in Infante as an everyday starting player, fine. Just no one be shocked if sometime in mid-May in 2009 people here on this blog are calling for him to be run out of town.

By AdirondackDave

August 11, 2008 8:13 PM | Link to this

KeyLargo - Many thanks on those agents. Maybe we can reel in Dunn or Vlad.

By kirknga

August 11, 2008 8:24 PM | Link to this

THB,

As I said earlier, Furcal is not a priority in my opinion, but if healthy, he should be an option.

I believe acquiring two frontline starters and a run-producing LF are the most glaring needs.

But I must say, I find it interesting how some people point to Furcal’s injury and say stay away, but overlook or minimize the injury history of several prominent starters being mentioned as possibilities.

My primary target would be Sabathia. I don’t care if he’s fat, he doesn’t have the injury history of Sheets or Peavy,or Dempster. Sabathia has 24 complete games since 06, that is compelling evidence to me that this guy at 28 is someone you should want at the top of your rotation.

So give him a Santana, Zito, contract and don’t blink about it.

By McFann :Ô:

August 11, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this

THB—

I’ve been really impressed with it, too! He’s very smart on the bases! I guess you have to be when you’re—how do you say—not very fast…

But he’s just a smart ball player.

Funny how 750 or whatever that station was only mentioned that “Jeff Francoeur and Chipper Jones were among the pallbearers” at the funeral.

By Doc Holliday

August 11, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this

Hello SNIPPER……………..

I was wondering…….isnt your team supposed to beat the pirates??? Or is all this part of the Multsdown in 2008?

By BA

August 11, 2008 8:28 PM | Link to this

Rohrbough is getting ROCKED.

By BravesFanInRockies

August 11, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this

Omar Infante is a pumpkin,

If the Braves add a Big Bopper or two to the lineup, people won’t really care much about Infante’s offense (if he indeed becomes a regular). If they don’t, then yes, Infante will be a market man.

By David O'Brien

August 11, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this

It was nice ceremony, hit on all the right tones. Ernie cracked me up, as did both Schuerholz and Jiggs a couple of times. And Pete did well to hold up. I saw him wipe away a few tears when others were speaking. Gotta be so tough, all of this, or Pete. Those two were so very close.

Saw NIekro, Javy, Otis Nixon, Ron Gant, etc. Talked to Leo Mazzone for a while. My man Gordon Edes, formerly of the Globe and now Yahoo, was there (he used to work at the AJC, long ago). Tons of local media members. Looked like a little over half of the Braves team was there, along with Bobby and all the coaches.

The place was packed. Absolutely beautiful church.

By David O'Brien

August 11, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this

Oldmike: In answer to your question, no, I don’t think vision problems are the reason Francoeur is struggling so this season. And I don’t think he has any significant vision problem, though I don’t know that for a fact.

These players have easy access to the best health care available, and he’s had his eyes checked, both in the regular (extensive) vision testing the Braves do in spring training, which includes depth-perception testing (not all teams test for that) and again during the season when he saw an eye doctor and tried out the single contact lens (which he soon tossed because he didn’t think it was doing anything for him).

By BA

August 11, 2008 9:01 PM | Link to this

I think Skip would have gotten a kick out of his pallbearers: the middle of the order! God bless the family AND Pete. Pete has been a great ambassador for Skip with the media. A true class act.

By WTF, Furcal?

August 11, 2008 9:03 PM | Link to this

What’s this Furcal talk?

The guy hasn’t shown he can stay healthy consistently over any extended amount of time. I’d think Braves fans wouldn’t want an injury prone guy after watching the 2008 Braves.

For how much money it will take to sign him, I don’t think it’s a wise choice. I like Bravehearts idea of Renteria as a utility guy to further the development of Escobar and to be a bat off the bench. Escobar & Renteria work out together in the offseason.

Infante and Prado can hold down 2nd. Escobar should keep progressing at SS.

KJ should be traded. Our 2nd baseman should be an everyday guy, and KJ being a lefty doesn’t fit well in this lineup with Blanco (L), McCann (L), and Kotcman (L). I don’t like having 4 lefties in a lineup.

What teams can use a 2nd baseman for next year? Dodgers, Giants, Indians, Royals, Rockies, Blue Jays, Astros? They could all use KJ and we can get more pitching in return to fill some holes.

Use an abundance at 1 position to fill a hole, not free agent money. Go after Sheets, Lowe, etc, sign a reliever like Ohman, make a trade for another with KJ, see if Renteria wants to be a reserve here, and the roster all of a sudden looks a lot more formidable.

By Omar Infante is a pumpkin

August 11, 2008 9:10 PM | Link to this

If the Braves add a Big Bopper or two to the lineup, people won’t really care much about Infante’s offense

Bull. People here complained about Corky Miller and his 50 at-bats this season. People here will complain about anyone struggling, regardless of how the team is doing as a whole. And a starting player having a bad season (Francoeur)? Yes, I think people will complain, big-time, about Infante if he starts next season and is as bad as his career numbers.

By StingerSplash

August 11, 2008 9:27 PM | Link to this

So Edes’ buyout and move out to the Web is a done deal?

By StingerSplash

August 11, 2008 9:30 PM | Link to this

And I can attest to the beauty of Christ the King Cathedral. Very lovely church.

By THB

August 11, 2008 9:30 PM | Link to this

BA-Rohrbough did not get rocked. He pitched a scoreless game into the 5th and his line is 6 IP, 9 H, 4 ER, 1 BB, 6 K. And 3 of those hits were infield hits, one being a bunt. 2 of the runs were on sac flys, but he did give up the big inning in the 5th. I wouldn’t worry too much about the runs this game, good K/BB. Not getting rocked though.

By Run over 'em Heap Run Over 'em

August 11, 2008 9:33 PM | Link to this

Jesus. Does anyone know how to disable Guitar Hero?

By Norm J

August 11, 2008 9:43 PM | Link to this

DOB- I have watched & listened to Pete & Skip since the late 70’s; Braves radiocasts will never be the same. Not only does my heart go to Paula, Chip and the Carey family; but also goes to Pete, who will be doing his first home game without Skip in 33 yrs.

With the emergence of XM satellite radio and the ability to listen to various broadcasters of the other MLB teams, one thing stands out — the Braves were really blessed to have Skip and Pete as their broadcasters!

Good luck, Pete and God Bless; and a big “Thanks” to Mark Lemke to pinch-hitting during a very difficult time.

By Doc Holliday

August 11, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this

I like Infante a lot, but we cant count on him to be a solid everyday player in 2009. He could end up like Matt. He is a great defender, and we all know defense never slumps, so at least he could be worth a try. But, I can recall Matt being a better hitter than Infante last year, and he look very bad this year. I would give it a try anyway. I mean, Braves have given KJ a try and JF more than a full chance this year, so, why not try Infante??? The guy looks like a winner to me, he plays hard and hardly ever looks weak a tthe played and never while on defense.

By Andy K.

August 11, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this

DOB:::Did Matt Diaz stay in ATL for the service? Because I thought he was gunna play for Richmond tonight, but he wasn’t in the line-up…

By fastasballs

August 11, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this

Heyward & Freeman are doing it again tonight for Rome. Heyward is 2-4 RBI & Freeman is 2-3 with 2 RBI’s.

Heyward gets a lot of press & rightfully so, but Freeman should be right behind him.

In Rome’s league of 16 teams Freeman ranks in the top 5 for hits, doubles, triple, HR, RBI(league leader 87), total bases(league leader) SLG, Average & OPS. Can we say wow!

Can you dominate any more at that level? It will be interesting to see if these two make a pit stop at Myrtle Beach or start at Mississippi next season. Freeman is still 18 & Heyward just turned 19.

Great future for those two.

There is plenty of other talent down on the farm as well. Myrtle Beach is loaded with talent & slowly it’s trickling up the pipe line to Mississippi.

By BostonBravesGirl

August 11, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this

Edes is gone, as of about two weeks ago. The Sox announcers made a big deal of it; he was very well thought of in Boston, and I’m miss reading him in the Globe.

By fastasballs

August 11, 2008 9:56 PM | Link to this

I think they shut Diaz’s rehab down, not positive, but thought I read it on the blog the other day.

By Omar Infante is a pumpkin

August 11, 2008 10:05 PM | Link to this

I mean, Braves have given KJ a try and JF more than a full chance this year, so, why not try Infante???

I agree on Francoeur, but it’s not really fair to pretend like KJ has been a failure this year. He is still the third best offensive player on team (fourth when Teixeira was here).

I maintain handing Infante a starting gig is not wise. The Tigers got burned in 2005 I think it was when they tried.

By Mike

August 11, 2008 10:05 PM | Link to this

Omar Infante should not be counted on as an everyday player for the Atlnata Braves. Neither should Martin Prado. Nothing in their major or minor league career should suggest that they should play over Kelly Johnson.

Most people will disagree with that because they don’t value OBP. And most people probably think Kelly has poor range and fielding skills. It is a bunch of crap.

This team needs all the offense it could get. This team is set in the infield. It’s the three OF positions that are in question for next year.

I thought Francoeur would turn it around at some point this season. But he has been one of the peast productive hitters in baseball this season(as a regular). If he continues to suck it up, maybe the Braves shuld consider platooning him to start next year. Maybe with Brandon Jones or Gregor Blanco…..

By ncscoots

August 11, 2008 10:10 PM | Link to this

DOB, a personal note…I know Skip was a friend, and there are too few of those for any of us to not despair over losing one.

But I’m betting there’s a pressbox in the afterlife (whatever its form and nature may be); one where your pencil never breaks when writing in your scorebook, where your soft drink cup is never empty, where a hot dog fresh off the grill is always within reach. I’m guessing whoever is in charge there had a seat reserved for your friend, well-deserved and now comfortably occupied.

Platitudes in the face of grief suck, frankly, and I have none of those to offer. But maybe you can find some slight comfort in the thought of that eternal pressbox, with Skip taking in the game. Just seems to fit.

By TennesseePaul

August 11, 2008 10:12 PM | Link to this

McFann: I do it through a process no man should have to do in the age of the internet. I just pulled all the game line history for the Braves past two seasons with KJ at second. RotoSheet was of help for this.

kirknga: I apologize for not making that clear the first time. I was in a rush to head out and didn’t want to type much direction for it. The “dashes” are the negative signs. The negative signs means, effectively the difference in defense between KJ playing and not playing 2B. Example: H -50. When KJ plays compared to when he doesn’t play the net effect over the number of innings KJ played is a reduction of 50 hits compared to his replacements playing time. The pitcher’s ERA dropped when KJ was at 2B as opposed to when he wasn’t. I included as well in the initial splits of With / Without KJ the Opp averages. They are merely assigned AVG OBP and SLG. I should have been a bit more clear on the initial post though.

There is probably a more thorough method yet for looking at this, but this is what I did…

By StingerSplash

August 11, 2008 10:16 PM | Link to this

In ex-Braves news, Horacio Ramirez has just made his debut with the Southsiders. Gave up a gift bloop single to Jacoby Ellsbury and Coco Crisp followed with sac bunt before Ozzie (another great ex Brave) lifted him.

By Steve from OH

August 11, 2008 10:27 PM | Link to this

Another Myrtle Beach prospect not getting a lot of press is Eric Campbell. He was 3-5 tonight with a double and a triple, and has raised his batting average from near the mendoza line early in the season to .266. He has a .370 OBP and a .508 SLG for an 878 OPS.

By stupidpatrol

August 11, 2008 10:28 PM | Link to this

WTF, Furcal? Why does talk of Furcal threaten you?You think KJ is gonna bring back pitching and he should be traded because there 3 other left handed batters?Go after Sheets who averages only 26 starts, but hey that Furcal averages only 145 games and is too risky!See if a slumping Renteria wants to be a reserve, but don’t consider a younger Furcal who still has good numbers? WTF?

By StingerSplash

August 11, 2008 10:32 PM | Link to this

Fine job by Mr. Stinson and Ms. Rogers on Skip’s memorial service and the sidebar. Fine work indeed.

By Jake

August 11, 2008 10:47 PM | Link to this

I think that Omar Infante should remain as the braves utility player. He has been thriving in that role so why change it. Besides, Chipper has shown that he has been prone to injury the last few years. Its nice to know that we a good backup to step in there when he gets hurt. I think sometimes the role of a backup can be underrated. I mean just look at who Mac had as a backup. If he would have gotten injured for any significant point of time we probably would have been worse off than the Washington Nationals.

When it comes to the KJ or Prado thing I don’t really care about the numbers. The only way you can compare the two is by their minor league numbers becasue Prado has never really been given a significant chance to tell if he can play in the majors. I remember when Kelly first came up and how he struggled but Bobby stuck with him and gave him enough chances to see if he could do it on a day to day basis. Prado has not been given that chance at this level. I don’t see the harm in platooning the players and giving Martin more opportunities to hit while not completely benching Kelly because he hasn’t done that bad. Bobby is all about giving players chances and its not like we are in a pennant race. I mean I don’t know what makes Johnson so special that he cannot be platooned. We did it with Adam LaRoche for the longest and Matt Diaz. Both of those players had to earn the right to play everyday. I’m just saying Bobby should give the chance to Prado the same way he is done for so many others. It couldn’t hurt at this point.

By David O'Brien

August 11, 2008 10:54 PM | Link to this

Fastbasballs, Diaz is starting a new rehab assignment, supposed to be today or tomorrow.

He was shut down for couple weeks after he injured the knee again, this time from the brace digging into it twice, on a slide and on a diving catch. Not a severe injury, just some inflammation they had to get out of there before he could go back out.

By Bobby's Cox

August 11, 2008 11:35 PM | Link to this

Word has it that all EqA averages will have to be recalculated.

Apparently, with the averages put up by Andruw Jones, Corky Miller, Chris Woodward, Jeff Francoeur, and Ryan Langerhans over the last 2 seasons, the historical average of batting has dropped to .259.

To save trouble, Stats Inc is considering renaming EqA to ABAFFPEREqA, which translates to Atlanta Brave Adjustment For Declining Franchise Players and Erroneous Reserves EqA.

Chipper Jones has been trying to relinquish such a stat on his own with his .370 BA this season, but unfortunately injuries have prevented him from accumulating enough at-bats.

By Bobby's Cox

August 11, 2008 11:46 PM | Link to this

Braves pick up a 1/2 game on the Fish, Mets, and Phillies (losing 7-1) today who all lost….

Is anyone else still paying attention to the standings or is it false hope?

By Bobby's Cox

August 11, 2008 11:56 PM | Link to this

Jake

That was a fine looking post @ 10:47

By N8

August 11, 2008 11:56 PM | Link to this

(sigh)

Looks like Sheffield has worn out his welcome in Detroit.

What an A-Hole!

What a whiner!

DOB, Leyland doesn’t seem like the guy that’s gonna take any sh!t from his players, especially if they spout off to the media about things they don’t like.

Apparently when Shef was working out with Bonds, Barry never told him about the time he and Leyland had their little shouting match in spring training. Maybe somebody should email Shef the You-Tube clip of that incident, as to let him know he’s fighting a losing battle with Leyland….if it exsists.

By N8

August 12, 2008 12:05 AM | Link to this

Bobby’s Cox

I looked at the standings after we won the first 3 games of the D-Backs series, and they were STILL 9+ games out, so I have “officially” given up ALL HOPE.

Realistically, I figured they were out of it a while back, but many people weren’t paying attention to the Rockies until September either, so there was a SLIVER of hope.

But I figure that as long as Francoeur is still in the lineup, the Braves management isn’t that serious about trying to actually win any more games this year either.

So why should I be?

On August 11th last year, the Rockies were 6 games back, but they were also 4 games over .500. The Braves are 9.5 back and 8 games UNDER .500.

Not really “similar” circumstances, IMO.

If the Braves were 9.5 back, and were in 2nd place and had 9+ head-to-head games left against the team they were chasing, I’d still glance at the standings each night.

As it stands though, it’s been MUCH less painful watching things not go that well with nothing on the line.

By N8

August 12, 2008 12:13 AM | Link to this

However……..

I did happen to find the NL standings on August 11th, 1993, and the Braves were 9 games out on that date. LOL!

Of course, they were 68-47 on that date, and arguably in the middle of the greatest 2nd half the Braves have ever had.

I’m afraid that stretch run won’t be repeating itself any time soon.

By Robert S

August 12, 2008 12:16 AM | Link to this

Bobby’s Cox, if the Braves win five of the next six, then maybe we can pay attention to the standings. I think the Braves main goal should be to get to .500, and then see what happens from there. I doubt the N.L. East champion is gonna have more than 85-87 wins this year. The Braves would have to play .700 ball to get there, but it’s not impossible.

But it ain’t probable, either……doesn’t hurt to have faith, though.

By Bobby's Cox

August 12, 2008 12:17 AM | Link to this

N8

ditto.

it’s kinda like I just wanna see the kids play to help management better analyze the youth in the organization.

By N8

August 12, 2008 12:20 AM | Link to this

Oh yeah, forgot to add this to the last post.

In order to “eek” out the Giants by one game in 93, and over-come that 9 game deficit.

The Braves went 36-11 after August 11th. While the Giants went 26-21. In their 6 “head-to-head” match-ups after August 11th, the Braves went 5-1 against SF.

Talk about taking the bull by the horns.

I think the best part of that whole stretch drive was Barry publicly stating they weren’t “worried” about the Braves acquiring McGriff.

He was probably right. They should have been worried about a VERY young Solomon Torres pitching with the season on the line.

Too funny.

By Robert S

August 12, 2008 1:36 AM | Link to this

N8, those were the good ol’ days right there. I remember watching that Dodgers-Giants game after the Braves finished off the Rockies to end their regular season, and the shots that were hit off poor Torres!! Especially Piazza’s opposite field homer! That was the best, and last great pennant chase of the past 30 years.

The Braves have 44 games left. Don’t think they’re gonna go 33-11. I’d just like to see .500. I really don’t think the Mets, Phillies, or Marlins are 90-win teams. Maybe 85, but not much more. Interesting to note though - the Cardinals won 83 games in ‘06 and went all the way.

By CharlieAlphaBravo

August 12, 2008 1:40 AM | Link to this

Then again, I’ve never seen DOB and I in the same place, at the same time……

By Robert S

August 12, 2008 1:49 AM | Link to this

Wow, just went back to the box score of that 1993 Dodgers-Giants game, and while Torres didn’t last long in that game, Piazza actually hit his two homers off of Dave Burba and Dave Righetti. My memory failed me! But I do remember that one long opposite field homer he hit. I knew then the Braves had it wrapped up, but they ran out of steam against the Phils in the NLCS. Great memories, N8!

By Wilson

August 12, 2008 2:12 AM | Link to this

I was reading the online story about Skip’s service. Smoltz mentioning Skip’s call of Sid Bream’s slide in ‘91 got me to thinking about my first years of watching baseball. I was seven and Skip’s call of that play in ‘91 is one of my earliest memories of watching baseball and it along with the ‘95 championship are my fondest baseball memories of my life. I’ve heard Skip’s call of the Bream slide thousands of times, and to this day I still get chills every time I hear it. Just reading the words, “Braves win, Braves win, Braves win,” on the page gave me chills. Thanks Skip! You will be missed.

By scottbravesfan

August 12, 2008 2:19 AM | Link to this

I hope all of you in the Atlanta metro area will make it out to the ceremony tomorrow for Skip and try to make it to the Braves game Tuesday night. It would be a shame to see the Ted packed with Cubs fans for a tribute to Skip.

By nolie

August 12, 2008 2:44 AM | Link to this

August 11, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

Amen Braveheart…. Wait… Maybe we’re all DOB!?!CAR re BH

Hey, how come I got left out? I wanna be DOB too. That hurts BH.

By Coach ( Watch the Olympics)

August 12, 2008 2:59 AM | Link to this

Michael Phelps is already the greatest Olympic athlete of all time. Then when considering that he is just 23 years of age, it is almost inconceivable what he could accomplish now and in the future.

Jeff Francoeur, by the numbers at the end of each month, this year.

April 30th, .273 BA.

May 31st, .255 BA

June 29th, .239 BA

July 31st, .231 BA

As of today, .226 BA

I’ll break it down even further.

By the month itself.

April, .273

May, .236

June, .206

July, .220

and so far in August, .118

Can anyone come up with some kind of rational explanation as to why Bobby Cox keeps putting an automatic out in the lineup?

By nolie

August 12, 2008 3:03 AM | Link to this

So let me ask Steve, why is it that .260 “is set” as an average EqA?Kirknga

1. cause the guy who created it designed it that way?

2. cause when it is solved, thats where the* average* players end up?

3. All of the above?

By nolie

August 12, 2008 3:13 AM | Link to this

Not trying to be snarky, but why should we save the $$$? I’d love to hear a good reason (honestly, not trying to be a smart@##, I really do. If you’ve got one, I’d be glad to re-consider my stance)SteveFromOhio

If you are talking about this season, its already shot.why in the world would we waste prospects of any kind on anybody who is a free agent after the season is over? It wouldn’t guarantee that we could resign him. Dunn would be an interesting player to go after this winter as a FA I agree, but why not just wait and sign him then when we won’t have to give up anybody? Save ‘em all to use in a trade for a starter if it’s decided that is the way to go.

By Capt Caveman (The Original Dawg)

August 12, 2008 4:43 AM | Link to this

I haven’t blogged in a while b/c I starting working at a new club in town. Get home pretty late but I don’t complain b/c it’s a strip club and it has it’s perks.

We have the Braves on all the time and it looks like they still have a lot of fight left in them so I hope we finish the year strong.

I see that Coach is still 11 bricks short of a dozen and making more “friends” with every post. what a jagoff.

By Coach ( Watch the Olympics)

August 12, 2008 6:23 AM | Link to this

Another intelligent answer from captain retard. Why am I not surprised.

By nolie

August 12, 2008 7:11 AM | Link to this

* JOE POSNANSKI on GREG MADDUX* The Master. July 2, 1997

I’ve always been a Greg Maddux guy. I’ve never been precisely sure what it says about me — I have these odd quirks in my fandom. You already know about my overwhelming love for Duane Kuiper.*

*A few of you mentioned this … the new Nebraska football coach, Bo Pellini, said in an interview recently that he grew up a Cleveland Indians fan and that one of his favorite players was Duane Kuiper. Well, obviously I was very excited about this, and so at the recent Big 12 Media Day, I went up to Pellini to ask him about Kuiper. Now, I should say that Big 12 Media Day is the wrong day to try to talk to a football coach about anything — they are running from one interview to the next, from newspaper reporters to television reporters to radio talk shows back to television reporters back to newspaper reporters, it’s one awful mess and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. So, I’m certain Pellini was a bit dazed. He LOOKED a bit dazed.

Still, I have to say that when I asked him about Kuiper, he eyed me very suspiciously, like I was trying to trap him into saying something that might get him in trouble. “Duane was a very good player,” he said cautiously, and then he talked about how he wasn’t just a Cleveland Indians fan, he also liked the “We Are Family” Pittsburgh Pirates (he grew up in Youngstown, which is sort of a Cleveland-Pittsburgh war zone). I don’t know, the conversation just wasn’t as fulfilling as I had hoped. I had thought we might reminisce a bit about Kuiper moments. It didn’t turn out that way. Maybe I’ll make another run at Pellini when it isn’t Big 12 Media Day.

But there’s more that just Kuiper. As a kid, I was, inexplicably, a huge Ivan Lendl fan. Friends liked McEnroe and Connors and Borg and Gerulitas and Roscoe Tanner*, but I was drawn to the taciturn and stern monotony of Ivan Lendl smacking forheands and backhands from the baseline. I couldn’t tell you why I was drawn to him. It isn’t like I saw something more in him than anyone else. No, I saw what everyone saw: He was dry, machine-like, strange, boring, and in his early days he would tank sets when he fell behind a break. But for some reason, he was mine, and I ached when he lost those two Wimbledon finals, especially the one to that fluke Pat Cash. So strange. It wasn’t until many years later, when I first came across my dear friend and colleague Mechelle, that I met another Lendl fan. She could not explain it either.

*Remember the days when you could actually NAME five or six tennis players off the top of your head?

Obviously, the Maddux fandom is not nearly as strange — lots of people like Greg Maddux. But I would say that i probably have taken that Maddux fandom beyond the realm of most non-Braves fans. For a few years there in the mid 1990s, I would never (if at all possible) miss a Maddux start. I would count down days. I would start to get psyched the morning of a start, I would plan my day around it, I would tell friends that I had plans when he was pitching. I never thought of this as weird — it just got to the point where I enjoyed watching Greg Maddux pitch more than I enjoyed going to a movie or hanging out at a bar or seeing some low-level band or most other things. Sure, it probably WAS weird. But it didn’t feel that way at the time.

And it was the bewildering logic behind my love of Maddux that compares to Lendl. I never was able to explain WHY I liked watching Maddux pitch. I just did. I figured everyone did, that it was universal. I never even thought about it until one day when I was talking with my buddy Vac, and I said something like: “Isn’t is just great to watch Maddux pitch?” And he said something like, “Eh.” I remember being stunned. I would soon find that a lot of people felt that way about Maddux — they respected him, of course, and they admired him, and they appreciated his artistry. But they were not going to cancel plans to watch him pitch. Vac said what they all said — Maddux was a great pitcher, but he was not particularly dynamic, and he got strike calls four inches off the outside corner, and Vac would rather watch someone else, someone who might strike out 20, someone who might throw a no-hitter, someone like Clemens or Pedro or Unit or Mariano.

That’s when I started to wonder: What is it about Maddux that speaks to me? In the end, I think it comes down to the eternal baseball riddle: What would be the ultimate game? We all know what a perfect game is — what would be the ultimate? Would it be a pitcher striking out all 27 batters on 81 pitches? Or would it be a pitcher getting 27 outs on 27 pitches?

Most, I think, would say that 27 strikeouts is the ultimate game — and that’s probably right. If a pitcher threw struck out every batter on three pitches — it’s hard to argue against that. Plus, we all know that there’s fortune involved when any ball is hit in play, so the whole 27 outs/27 pitches thing would require luck and good defense and all that.

But, I have to say I’m much more drawn to the second possibility. Why? Because it’s not really a possibilitiy. It cannot happen. Sooner or later a batter would take a pitch. Hypothetically, a pitcher could strike out 27, a pitcher could come along who is truly unhittable, who throws so far hard or who makes the ball jump or collapse so late that a batter physically cannot hit it. But no pitcher can ever come along who can actually control the batter to the point of making him swing at the first pitch every time, whether he wanted to or not.

Maddux, I think, is the closest we will ever see.

My favorite Maddux game happened on July 2, 1997. It was a Wednesday — two days before Independence Day, of course — and it was widely viewed as a revenge game. It was the first time Maddux faced the New York Yankees after losing Game 6 of the World Series. The Yankees scored three runs in the third inning of that World Series game — all the runs they would get, all the runs they would need. O’Neill doubled. Girardi tripled, Jeter singled and scored second. Bernie singled. That was enough. The Yankees were world champs.

So the question, at least to me, was: What would Maddux come up with for the Yankees the Yankees this time? I had no guess. The beauty of Maddux has always been that mystery — nobody had ever quite understood him. With Seaver, you understood, the guy threw gas, and he broke off the nastiest curves, and he was freaking hard to hit. With Clemens, you understood, the guy threw gas, and he would stick it in your ear, and later he honed that split-fingered pitch that went cliff diving just before it reached home plate. With Pedro, you understood, the guy threw gas too only he also had the sick change-up, looked just like the fastball until you swung 12 minutes before the ball arrived, plus he would change arm angles and every now and then he would throw a hard slider because he did not want to strike out batters, he wanted to have them committed to an asylum.

Well, Maddux famously did not throw gas. Commentators never let anyone forget that Maddux’s stuff wasn’t anything special — and though they may have missed a few nuances (Maddux’s pitches ALL had dramatic movement) the truth was that frustrated hitters said the same thing after games. Guy had nothing. I suspect no pitcher in the history of baseball ever left so many batters feeling like they just missed. Maddux threw his fastball in the upper 80s, sometimes a little faster, often a little slower. He had a change-up that tumbled, a cutter that backed lefties off the plate (and was called for strikes against infuriated righties), a curveball that had nothing to it. It was an unthreatening arsenal, slingshots in a firefight, though that was part of the story. Maddux, as much as any great athlete, wanted to be underestimated.

His success came out of small, often unnoticed things — for instance, lefties could not hit him. For five years — 1994-98 — lefties hit .212 against Maddux, a little bit worse than righties each and every year. That’s just a quirky little thing, lefties struggling against a righty (lefties had real problems with Maddux because of his two-seam fastball, which chased low and away), but that was Maddux, a collage of quirky little things. He fielded his position brilliantly, he more or less never walked anyone he did not want to walk, he struck out more people than 3,000 batters but did it with that crazy change-up rather than a back-breaking curve or upstairs heater. There are so many fun little Maddux statistics. He did not throw a single wild pitch in 1997. He gave up four homers in 1994. He did not hit a batter in 2006. He did not balk from 1995 to 1999. In 1996, he recorded 71 assists — John Smoltz, a different kind of dominant, had about one-third as many.

That was Maddux, always trying something new, always finding an edge, always formulating a plan. He showed you the quarter, made the quarter disappear, pulled the quarter out of your ear only now it was a half dollar, and it was blue, made that disappear, turned it into a Buick, it was all an old-fashioned magic show and come to think of it that might be why I liked Maddux so much. I’ve always liked magic shows.

So, yeah, I wondered what Maddux would bring to that game against the Yankees on July 2nd, one day after Hong Kong was handed over to China. It didn’t take long. First batter. Maddux struck out Derek Jeter on three pitches, and I recall the last being a classic Maddux strike, outside to Jeter, outside corner to the umpire. It was obvious from the start: Maddux was bringing his his whole bag to this game. He got Joe Girardi to ground out to second. Then, he went to a full count against Paul O’Neill before getting him to ground out to second. The full count was significant. No Yankees batter would have three balls on him the rest of the game.

Maddux got Tino looking in the second. The Yankees looked dull and a step slow. In the third Hard Hittin’ Mark Whiten cracked a single up the middle and got to second on a groundout. Maddux promptly picked him off. That too was significant. No other Yankee runner would reach second base.

Maddux was mesmerizing. That’s all. In the fourth, Girardi managed a single against Maddux. O’Neill promptly hit into a double play. In the fifth and sixth, the ball never left the infield. The amazing thing about this game was that the Yankees were going down fast, it’s like they couldn’t stop themselves, couldn’t slow things down, you could almost hear Dick Vitale shouting, “Get a T-O baby!” You will hear announcers talk about a pitcher being in control — well, I have never seen a pitcher more in control than Maddux that day, not Kerry Wood when he struck out 20 or Nolan Ryan during one of his no-hitters or the many replays I’ve seen of perfect games. It was different because those pitchers overpowered hitters, tricked them, frustrated them, but Maddux almost seemed to be working WITH the hitters.

“Swing,” he said, and they swung.

“Look,” he said, and they looked.

Put it this way, Maddux started 20 of the 28 Yankees he faced with first pitch strikes, and still they seemed befuddled. “The best pitch you’re going to see is the first one,” Girardi said after the game, just like he said before the game, but it did not matter, they did not swing, they could not swing, they seemed stunned as the ball just crossed the plate. Maddux was pitching and hypnotizing all at the same time.

In the seventh, Maddux struck out Jeter swinging, then struck out Girardi looking. In the eighth, it was Cecil Fielder who went down looking. The game technically was not out of reach — the Braves led only 2-0 on a Ryan Klesko home run and a Chipper Jones single — but the Yankees were helpless. The ninth inning was the smile on the Mona Lisa. Hard Hittin’ Mark Whiten looked at strike three. Chad Curtis muscled a ground ball up the middle for a single, and Bernie Williams pinch hit to give the game a brief burst of tension. Bernie looked at strike three too. That made six strikeouts looking in the game. Jeter then grounded out to second to finish it off.

The final numbers: nine innings, three hits, no walks, eight strikeouts, one pickoff, one double play, 84 pitches. The whole thing took two hours and nine minutes, or 23 minutes less than the new “Dark Knight” movie.

“As a fan, it had to be a boring game,” Paul O’Neill said when it ended. Maybe that’s how some baseball fans saw it, maybe that’s even how MOST baseball fans saw it, I don’t know. I just recall being spellbound. Like everyone else, I saw Maddux good on a lot of other days, but I never saw him THAT good, never saw him so entirely in command. He should have worn a tuxedo for that game. He should have had martinis shaken, not stirred between innings.

That’s not to say that I think Maddux is the greatest living pitcher — I look at our poll, and I realize that this is an impossible question. I think Pedro was awfully good. I think Clemens was awfully good. I think Koufax was preposterously dominant, and Gibson too. I think Tom Seaver should be getting more respect, and Bob Feller should be getting more love. It’s a tough poll.

No, Maddux is my just my favorite pitcher. If I had to explain it, I guess I would say that it comes down to this: Even now, all these years later, nobody quite knows how he did it. The magician always guarded his secret. After that Yankees game, he was asked why he was able to dominate. He said: “I was locating well.” That’s a perfect Maddux quote — probably sums up the wizardry Greg Maddux in four words. It’s true. And it doesn’t give away a damn thing.

By keylargo

August 12, 2008 7:45 AM | Link to this

Here are the odds for winning the World Series. The Braves have gone from a 25:1 shot at the end of July to a 300:1 longshot. This is not because of the Kochman trade but just the fact that there are not enough time left to jump over three teams. It’s way past time to put this to bed.

Team Odds
New York Yankees 20-1 Bet Now Boston Red Sox 9-2 Bet Now Detroit Tigers 30-1 Bet Now Cleveland Indians 1000-1 Bet Now Los Angeles Angels 3-1 Bet Now Philadelphia Phillies 12-1 Bet Now New York Mets 15-1 Bet Now Chicago Cubs 7-2 Bet Now Minnesota Twins 20-1 Bet Now San Diego Padres 5000-1 Bet Now Colorado Rockies 75-1 Bet Now Los Angeles Dodgers 20-1 Bet Now Toronto Blue Jays 500-1 Bet Now Milwaukee Brewers 12-1 Bet Now St Louis Cardinals 30-1 Bet Now Atlanta Braves 300-1 Bet Now Arizona Diamondbacks 15-1 Bet Now Seattle Mariners 5000-1 Bet Now Oakland Athletics 5000-1 Bet Now Chicago White Sox 15-1 Bet Now Houston Astros 300-1 Bet Now San Francisco Giants 1000-1 Bet Now Baltimore Orioles 1000-1 Bet Now Cincinnati Reds 5000-1 Bet Now Texas Rangers 150-1 Bet Now Florida Marlins 20-1 Bet Now Pittsburgh Pirates 5000-1 Bet Now Kansas City Royals 5000-1 Bet Now Tampa Bay Rays 3-1 Bet Now Washington Nationals 5000-1 Bet Now Tampa Bay Devils Rays off

By Shaun

August 12, 2008 8:31 AM | Link to this

keylargo, better not bring up things that have to do with odds and projections. People will accuse you of being a “stat geek” or say you are stuck on a computer instead of watching games.

By oldmike

August 12, 2008 8:53 AM | Link to this

DOB Thanks!!! Much appreciated. Would love to see Frenchy get back on track. Maybe winter ball will help get him going again? Braves really need his pop and run production from the past couple years.

By DAP

August 12, 2008 9:08 AM | Link to this

nolie very cool story about maddux. he was fun to watch, for sure. a very very special player.

By DAP

August 12, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this

guys….potential trade targets…what do you think about getting jermaine dye from the white sox this winter? would they part with him?

do you think we cold pry adrian gonzalez away from the padres? we could flip kotchman somewhere for pitching…id there any way in the world the padres would trade gonzalez?

By BB FAN

August 12, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this

Renegator,

“If the Braves want Adam Dunn for 2009, which may be a good idea - then they go out and sign him in the off season and it costs them no prospects.”

If the Braves sign Dunn in the off season, it would cost them a draft pick…depending on whether Dunn is a Type A Free Agent. I would guess he is with 40 HRs last year and being on pace for 40 more this year with his usual .380 OBP.

Anyway, like I said, I think the Braves should have put a claim in on Dunn. Obviously not to give up any significant prospects like they did for Tex, but offer two low level “B” prospects. If the Reds say yes, great, if the Reds say no, they keep Dunn and the Braves lose nothing. The Reds could also have just let Dunn go (unlikely, but possible) just to save the 3.5 mill on his contract.

The point is, the Braves need power this year and next year. Even if the Braves were to get Dunn for the two low level “B” prospects and lose Dunn to free agency, they would get 2 draft picks to replace the two prospects.

Francoeur needs to be benched for the rest of the year. Of course he should not ever have been brought up after only 3 or 4 games in AA. That should have been his team until September call ups. Nothing against him, but he has been worst than Andruw was last year. But again, Cox stuck with Andruw in the 4th spot until Tex was acquired. That is one thing I can’t stand about Cox is he sticks with guys too long.

By Zip City

August 12, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this

Good grief, what was that that Chipper was wearing at that funeral yesterday? The man makes how many millions and can’t get a suit that fits? And was that a black shirt? Holy cow.

And, also, groundhogs? Seriously? That’s the best Gwinnett can do? If they wanted alliteration, they should have gone with the Gwinnett Gridlock. I know I ain’t driving all the way up there for that, ‘cause I got 350 heads on a 305 engine, I get 10 miles to the gallon, I ain’t got no good intentions.

By NCBravesFan

August 12, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this

Shaun LOL - nothing wrong with stat geeks. I enjoy your posts.

As I was mentioning on the weekend blog, if the Braves are going to get back into the race, the next two weeks are their best (and probably last) opportunity. They need the teams ahead of them to struggle, and of course the Braves need to beat some pretty good teams along the way (Cubs, Mets, Cards).

The only reason this is even worth mentioning is that every team ahead of us has flaws - so while it’s unlikely that they would all play horribly the next two weeks, it’s certainly not impossible for the Braves to make up some ground if they take care of business.

While the math is still overwhelmingly against the Braves this year, the above facts will keep me watching, that’s for sure.

By Shaun

August 12, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

DAP, Dye is signed for just one more year. I don’t know if it would be worth what it would take to get him just for one year of Dye. Also, while Dye will probably have another good season, I’m not sure how likely he is to repeat his 2007 performance at 35.

I don’t know if the White Sox would give up Dye without getting a package that would not be worth giving up. They could move Swisher to right but given Konerko’s struggles, I’m guessing they want to keep Swisher and Dye for insurance next season (as Swisher can also play center or left).

Sure, Dye would be nice if they didn’t have to give up much of anything. But I don’t think that will be possible.

By Shaun

August 12, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

NCBravesFan, As long at there is hope, I’ll be watching. I don’t want to miss it if there is a miraculous comeback.

Obviously the only way they have a chance is going on an historic run, like losing only about 8-10 games the rest of the way. Not likely at all, but strange things have happened in baseball.

By The Mysterious Rhinestone Cowboy

August 12, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this

A big thanks to Lew,

I received my Skip/Sid print a couple of days ago. Your work is much appreciated. Shine on, Y C D…

By Steve from OH

August 12, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this

nolie, I think I posted above that I thought he meant we should save the cast next season and not acquire Dunn next season. I misread it. Sorry.

By McFann :Ô:

August 12, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this

Z City Good grief, what was that that Chipper was wearing at that funeral yesterday?

It wasn’t half as bad as Tom Paciorek’s shirt. Man! Was that thing UGLY!

10Paul—

Yikes. That must have been a pain (literally, prob’ly causes headaches). Great job, though, and thanks for the response.

By McFann :Ô:

August 12, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this

DOB, StingerSplash—

The Cathedral of Christ the King is a pretty Church…Though not quite as beautiful as the Church we attend if I do say so myself.

By Lew

August 12, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

Mysterious Cowboy-You’re welcome and Careful with that Axe, Eugene.

By keylargo

August 12, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this

Shaun

Please don’t tell me people will think I am a geek……….and I just came back from doing 30 miles on my bicycle too. Oh no, add those two up and no telling what people will think of me?

Seriously, though Shaun a lot of people did give you a tremendous amount of grief over your stats, but as I’m sure you’ve noticed, not as much lately. You have become one of the bloggers taken more seriously as people realized there is merit to what you are saying.

By Couch Tater

August 12, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this

N8 & Nolie

Thanks for the posts @ 12:20 a.m and 7:11.

Nice trips down memory lane.

By keylargo

August 12, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this

McFann & Z City

When you make 10 or 12 Million a year you aren’t underdressed or wearing wierd suits, you are eccentric.

By McFann :Ô:

August 12, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

Yee-haw! The Fillies lost! We gain a half a game!

Give it up for us! Whoo-hoo!

By Renegator

August 12, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

BB Fan

Good point about the Braves having to give up a prospect if they sign Dunn as a free agent - I forgot about that.

I’m not sure they will have to give up two though - that will be determined by whether Dunn is a type A or type B free agent. I would guess that he is a type B which means the Braves would have to give up a sandwich pick in the draft.

You said that the Braves need power this year. Why? They have already written off this year. Who cares how many more games they win? It doesn’t matter. It’s actually in their best interest to lose as many games as possible so they can get a higher pick in the draft.

I know that professional teams aren’t supposed to think that way and I know Bobby is playing all these games to win but there is really no reason to add a player to improve this years team. Just no reason at all.

By McFann :Ô:

August 12, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

Keylargo—

Ha…Yeah…

By DAP

August 12, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

shaun DAP, Dye is signed for just one more year. I don’t know if it would be worth what it would take to get him just for one year of Dye.

he also has an option for 2010, but the fact that he only has a year left on his contract is what makes him maybe a good trade candidate. the white sox might want to get something for him before he becomes a free agent. he will only make $11mil in 2009, and is exactly what the braves need. righthanded, power, corner outfielder. even if he doesnt hit 30 homers, youve gotta think he will hit 20-25, and batting cleanup, he will knock in some runs. also, since he wont be around forever, he isnt blocking heyward or b. jones if they are ready.

what would it take to get him? it depend on the white sox…if they WANT to trade him, or if we have to entice them. anyways, i think dye makes so much sense for the braves right now. he probably wont be available, but he would be a perfect fit.

By Mr J

August 12, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this

Apparently Ted Turner did not attend the funeral yesterday. If he had been there I’m sure his presence would have been noted. Seems kind of odd…

By Kentavo

August 12, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this

What about Sheffield? Would he be worth the risk? He cleared waivers and could be had now. He’d certainly give the lineup thump and he’s grumbling about DHing and wants to play in the outfield. According to what I just read, he’ll make $14 next year.

By THB

August 12, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

Renegator-I’m pretty sure Dunn will be a type A free agent next year. He’s going to hit 40 HR with close to a .400 OBP. We wouldn’t have to give up our first round pick though because it will be protected as a top 15 pick.

By David O'Brien

August 12, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this

Good morning, all. We’re getting to some numbers-crunching and will have a new blog up before too long.

By nolie

August 12, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this

PROSNANSKI ON PUJOLS AND PADDING STATS

Baseball Talk From China

News from America comes in slowly and hazily, in part because of the time difference, but also because of the irritable and ever-changing nature of the Chinese Internet. It’s funny now, you will click on a Web site. Say Fire Joe Morgan. Well, at first, when we first arrived, the Fire Joe Morgan Internet page would immediately crash because, of course, the Chinese government famously loves Joe Morgan. Big Red Machine indeed.

Well, now it’s different. Now, you will type in the Web address, and the browser will indicate that it is “Loading.” And it will be loading for about 90 seconds. If I was the paranoid type, I would say that all Internet requests immediately transmit to the Chinese Office To Clear Internet Requests, where a bureaucrat of some kind types in the requested Web site on his browser to check whether or not it’s OK for viewing. I base this theory on the fact that SOMETIMES if you click on Fire Joe Morgan, you will get the page. And sometimes, you won’t. I suspect this is based on the particular bureaucrat who is on duty back at headquarters and whether or not he is a Bill Plaschke fan, whether or not he likes the sacrifice bunt.

These bizarre Internet quirks emerge in the craziest ways. For instance, there’s no problem going on SI.com. But the Internet people sometimes will not let you go on the baseball scores page. At first I found all of this kind of annoying, but now I see my Internet surfing in China sort of the way I saw opening birthday presents when I was nine. Hey, you never know what’s in the box. Might be a Gnip Gnop. Might be legos. Might be clothes (ugh). Might be another game of Yahtzee since I probably got Yahtzee 23 different times when I was a boy.*

*More hints about the bloggy big news in this paragraph! Something’s coming … I don’t know … what it is … but it is … gonna be great!

Anyway sometimes, the portal opens to this Web site. Sometimes it does not. I’m guessing this posting will not be easily accessible. Anyway, to get to the point, this page opened up for a brief time over the weekend, which allowed me to view a few of your comments. This included the comments from someone — I wish I could name the brilliant reader but I can’t get on the site now — who was saying basically that Pujols’ numbers don’t look all that special this year.

I had to read that comment a couple of times to make sure that I wasn’t just reading something that had been planted there by the Chinese government. Pujols’ numbers aren’t special? What? Unless my Baseball Reference page is not loading properly, the guy is hitting .350/.462/.617 this year. His slugging percentage is the HIGHEST IN THE NATIONAL LEAGUE. His OPS+ is a ridiculous 183. He’s walking twice as often as he is striking out. The guy is a beast — better than ever.

But the thing that really stuck out about the comment is the suggestion the Pujols, in fact, padded his statistics by driving in runs when the game was out of hand. This is something I would like to explore — the concept of “Pribbies.” A pribbie is a fun word I just made up based on the three hours and 42 minutes of sleep I have gotten the last two nights. It stands for “Padded RBIs.” Or “Pointless RBIs,” if you prefer. And it’s one of the concepts that drive me absolutely nuts as a baseball fan.

It seems like every time a fan doesn’t like a player, they will say, “Yeah, he only drives in runs when it doesn’t count.” The charge is that certain players pad their statistics with an overwhelming number of cheap hits and homers and RBIs, doing it when games are out of reach and lousy pitchers are on the mound and so on. I believe the first player to be smacked around for being a pribbie hound was Ted Williams — many members of the Boston media seemed to think that the Kid’s sick statistics were, in fact, mirages, and that you could always count on him to choke when nothing mattered but to hit a three-run homer when the Sox were up five or crack a two-out double into the gap in the late innings of an 8-3 loss.

I thought John Updike, in his seminal “Hub Fans Bid Kid Adieu,” slammed this concept pretty well and with a lot of fancy words when he wrote: “ The correspondence columns of the Boston papers now and then suffer a sharp flurry of arithmetic on this score; indeed, for Williams to have distributed all his hits so they did nobody else any good would constitute a feat of placement unparalleled in the annals of selfishness.”

But the slamming did not end with Williams, not hardly. Countless players through the years have had their eye-popping statistics marginalized by haters who said they only cared about numbers and only came through when it did not help the team. I remember hearing this a lot about Wade Boggs when he was getting busy hitting .365 every year with 45 doubles and 100 walks. How can you knock those numbers? Well, people did — he was not driving in enough runs, he was too selective, he was the master of the meaningless, average-cushioning, base hit. Not too much later, it was Danny Tartabull padding his stats. Then it was Albert Belle padding his stats. And of course, king of them all, y’all, nobody has taken more abuse for supposedly padding stats than A-Rod. You can retire the trophy.

And those are just the big guys. I think, on a local level, every team has at least one player the fans are convinced drive in only meaningless runs. In Kansas City, for instance, people would say that CONSTANTLY about Mike Sweeney. They would say, “Oh, he only comes through when it doesn’t matter.” And I used to think, “They’re the freaking Kansas City Royals. When DOES it matter?”

There are two reasons this whole thing bugs the heck out of me. First, the big one: To me, there are no meaningless moments for a hitter in a baseball game. This is at the very core of my baseball love. I have read many wonderful essays about how soccer is like life because it is about disappointment more than triumph, because it is about the vagaries of luck and bad bounces, because, like life, there are many rainy nil-nil draws. I love reading that stuff. And I think that’s true.

But I tend to think baseball is more like the American life I grew up with. I’m not talking about the money the players make or the smell of the freshly cut grass poetry or any of that. I’m talking about the game. Baseball to me is about the daily grind, about getting up every morning and slogging to work in a rusted car and knowing that, yes, you went 0-for-4 yesterday but today you’re going to crack three hits, work a walk, maybe drive in a couple of runs. Baseball is understanding that sometimes you will smack the seams off the baseball and the third baseman will drive and steal your double, but it’s also appreciating that sometimes you will check swing and the ball will dribble down the first base line and it will somehow die in fair territory, a cheap single. Baseball to me is about never giving up an at-bat, never passing on your moment, because even Babe Ruth made outs most of the time, and the next time you come up the pitcher might throw you three unhittable sliders or the umpire might ring you up on a fastball at the ankles.

For me, baseball and life is about playing with joy on those days you can manage it, and giving a professional effort when your girlfriend dumped you or you walked out to a flat tire or you can’t get the song “Sussudio” out of your mind*.

*You’re welcome. Su-Su-Sudio!

Because that’s what I believe, I’m just not drawn to the player who comes through only when it matters. First of all, I don’t believe that person even exists. But, let’s say he does: What’s admirable about that? I admire the people who brings it every day, people who still answer their phone at 4:59, people who call you back two days after they finished the job to be sure, home builders who put in added touches because they’re proud of their work, waiters and waitresses who make heartfelt recommendations, doctors who really care about how you’re feeling, mechanics who work a little late so that it is fixed in the morning. I don’t have great admiration for a guy who, to stick with batting average for simplicity, hits .232 in non-pressure situations and .368 with runners in scoring position … I admire the guy who hits .300 in both.

And so, no, I don’t have much use for a guy who gives up at-bats when his team’s up or down eight runs. I appreciate that others disagree. I know that there are those in society who think those guys who give everything when it matters most but dial it down the rest of the time should be worshipped for their unselfishness or competitive spirit or something. But I look at it this way: Let’s say I walk into a Jaguar dealership. Now, I can’t afford a Jaguar. I would imagine that the salesman there — let’s say it’s a man — would realize this pretty quickly. So what will he do? Will he ignore me because the score is 11-1? Will he give me a cursory sales routine while looking at the door every two seconds to see if anyone else is walking in? Or will he give me some passion, will he express how much he loves Jaguars, will he try to SELL me that car because while he knows that I can’t buy it today and I can’t buy it tomorrow, I might someday make millions off this blog (not likely but … something’s coming), I might sell 10 million copies off this book (did I mention that I’m writing …), I might someday be viable, and anyway, you should play hard every moment and every day because, I think, that’s at the heart of what matters.

OK, that’s first — that’s my opinion. Here’s the second thing, and this is not just my opinion: Pretty much every time someone tells you, “Oh, all that guy does is rack up meaningless RBIs,” they are 100 percent wrong. Take Albert Pujols. Someone throws out there that he only gets hits and drives in runs when the score is out of hand, and in the old days when you got your box scores from the weekly Sporting News it would be hard to argue with that. But these days we have, you know, “facts,” and “statistics,” and those can paint a pretty clear picture.

Albert Pujols’ numbers in a tie game: .317/.418/.607. Albert Pujols’ numbers within one run: .335/.430/.639 Albert Pujols’ numbers within two runs: .335/.432/.630 Albert Pujols’ numbers within three runs: .333/.427/.624 Albert Pujols’ numbers without four runs: .333/.426/.622

And finally …

Albert Pujols numbers when either team has a four run lead or more: .332/.408/.607.

OK, do you see that? The guy is precisely the same player in every single situation. Precisely. Frighteningly so. Of course, you can say the same thing about a lot of other guys, including this guy, the Godfather of Pribbies:

Alex Rodriguez Score within 1 run: .304/.398/.584 Margin greater than 4: .310/.384/.573.

You see that? He’s not better in blowouts. He’s just not. It’s right there, plain to see, he’s NOT BETTER, so you can STOP saying it (though there is a little more to the story … I’ll get to that in a second). So here’s what I’m thinking here in China on no sleep: We need a statistic — I nominate my new word “pribbie” — that measures padded RBIs so that we can get people to stop indiscriminately and inappropriately ripping players for padding their statistics.

Now, to start with, I’m not suggesting anything too fancy. ;I think it’ easy enough to just count the RBIs players get when the margin is greater than four runs. Of course, it’s is true that a grand slam with when you’re trailing by five runs is hardly pointless, it’s hardly padding the numbers, but you know what? I’m in China. I don’t really have the access to more detailed statistics. If you would like to improve upon the Pribbie, go right ahead.

Here are a few interesting players’ pribbies from 2008. This is not a complete list, by any means. For instance, Tony Pena Jr.* is not on it.

Pribbies Bobby Abreu, 23 Ryan Howard, 22 Josh Hamilton, 22 Matt Holliday, 18 Xavier Nady, 15 A-Rod, 15 Miggy Cabrera, 14 Raul Ibanez, 13 Ryan Ludwick, 12 Carlos Quentin, 12 Chase Utley, 12 Kevin Youkilis, 12 Ryan Braun, 11 Jermaine Dye, 9 Derek Jeter, 9 Milton Bradley, 9 David Wright, 9 Albert Pujos, 9 Oh-wee-oh Magglio, 8 Justin Morneau, 8 Troy Glaus, 7 Pat Burrell, 6 Chipper Jones, 6 Carlos Lee, 6 Jose Guillen, 5 Adrian Gonzalez, 5 Lance Berkman, 5 Ryan Theriot, 2 MannyBManny, 2

There are a couple of things worth noting on this list. One, this year, A-Rod is actually living up to his previously unfair reputation — he’s hitting .404/.466/.904 in pribbie situations. I don’t blame him one bit. All these years people are ripping him for turning into King Kong after the game is decided, he might as well go ahead and do it. At least that way he can post even better numbers.

Two, MannyBManny has been terrible in pribbie situations this year — that can’t surprise you.

Three, I know this is a promising statistic because if someone had said to me — “Who do you think has had the most pribbiies this year,” my absolute first guess would have been Bobby Abreu.

*OK, so obviously I did not see this because I’m in China with a stuttering Internet connection … but if I’m reading this right, it seems that Tony Pena — serving as the designated hitter, no less — got TWO hits in extra innings Sunday in a Royals victory over Minnesota. I’m really not sure what to say about that. I just watched synchronized diving, and I was under the assumption that would be the strangest thing I’d see today.

First: What are the odds that Pena would ever serve as a designated hitter? Ever. I realize it happened because he pinch-ran for Billy Butler, an odd thing in itself because Pena is slow — it reminds of the classic Harry Carey line when Manny Trillo was used as a pinch-runner once: “You know, for a lot of teams you would pinch run for Manny Trillo.” Then, because the game went into extra innings and Skipper Trey apparently had a hunch, he remained as a DH. Still, it’s very weird.

Here’s the weirder part: He got two hits which means he is now hitting 1.000 as a designated hitter in his career. So, I would suggest that Tony Pena is the worst designated hitter in baseball history and the best all at the same time.

By Lew

August 12, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

Kentavo-I just don’t know about signing Sheffield. He’s missed an awful lot of games the past three seasons. IN 06 he only played in 37 games, 133 in 07 and 76 this year. Do we really need a petulant player who will likely spend much time on the DL? Whe he’s healthy he’s a good hitter, but he hasn’t been all that healthy for some time.

By David O'Brien

August 12, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this

DAP, you’re talking about getting Gonzalez from San Diego and “flipping” Kotchman? May as well just close your eyes, get another team’s roster and point to a name, then come up with a trade scenario. I mean, it’d probably at least as likely as that happening. Not saying there’s no way, but just seems a roundabout way to filling needs. Kotchman’s a good player, very affordable, and I think the Braves expect him to be their 1B for a while….

Kentavo, you’d pay $14 mill for Sheff’s services at this stage of his career? No way. He got old quickly. Look at his numbers. And the LAST thing anybody ever wants is Gary Sheffield in the final year of his contract. That’s when he always does his most serious moaning and groaning, asking to be re-upped and treated fairly, etc.

By DAP

August 12, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this

BB Fan and Regenerator I’m not sure they will have to give up two though - that will be determined by whether Dunn is a type A or type B free agent.

i think what the braves give up for signing a free agent also has to do with thier record. if i think the top 5 or 10 picks are protected, so if they are one of the 5 worst teams in the majors, they will lose a sandwich pick of something instead of thier top 5 pick. it works something like that, not sure EXACTLY how.

By David O'Brien

August 12, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this

Speaking of power hitters, anyone see a couple of those USA women’s swimmers last night? Wow. The lat muscles in their backs were just bursting out of those suits.

By 22oz

August 12, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this

Any word yet on the turnout at Turner Field today?

By DAP

August 12, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this

DOB re: gonzalez: tell me about it. just wishful, whimsical thinking.

By Doc Holliday

August 12, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

I keep reading people saying Frenchy might comeback next year. The big question is, Can a guy that young comeback in such a big fashion in 6 months??? I mean, if JF is doing so BAD this year, and I mean as bad as it could get, what will it take to reverse all this? I just dont see it.

I can picture a guy like Chipper hitting .280 and baounce back the year after that or Mc hit .270 and bounce back next year and hit .295

But whats the objective??? We need a guy that can hit around .280, hit some 30 HR and drive in 90+ runs. That is the least acceptable for our RF next year.

What are the odds of JF doing that??? By the way he looks right now, I would say 20% or even lower.

Some people like to say it is all mental. I dont think so. I think he was never taught to be selective, so he hacks at everything. Pitchers took 1.5 years to find that out. Now they have and now you need to teach a big leaguer to be selective and how to recognize pitches. And dont think thats an easy task, if it was, they would have done it this year.

If it was not fixed in 500 AB what makes you think it will drastically change by april or may 2009??? 100-200 ABs wont make a difference. It will only dig the whole deeper.

By Fantasy Football Question

August 12, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this

Marshawn Lynch or Marion Barber?

By David O'Brien

August 12, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this

DAP, I hear ya. And he would be a nice stick to have at that corner, I agree. Braves need to get additional power from somewhere, no doubt.

By Original Jon

August 12, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this

Why didnt the Braves try to claim Adam Dunn? Or were they pretty assured that he might not sign an extension with him to play here next year? Wondering why he was able to slip through to the D-Backs, when we could have used him next year. DOB, can you explain a little, and if you already have, I apologize for not reading the ENTIRE blog. I find it difficult to do when some people post entire Magazine articles that take up about 800 lines of the blog.

By Shaun

August 12, 2008 12:28 PM | Link to this

DAP, yeah, I just don’t see the White Sox giving up Dye very easily. He’s under contract for at least another entire season and they don’t have many good alternatives if they trade him away.

Doc Holliday, what the Braves need in rightfield will depend on what they have at other positions.

I see no reason why Francoeur can’t rebound to at least what he did in 2007. Francoeur is never going to walk a lot and he’s always going to strikeout a good bit, so a lot of his value or lack thereof is going to come from what he does when he puts the bat on the ball.

Francoeur has a decent shot to get close to his career average in doubles. He’s not extremely far off from his career average for hits in a season. Actually, he should surpass his career high in walks and his K rate is the lowest of his career. So really there are some good signs, even though it’s been his worst season statistically.

And hopefully those of you who have read my posts realize I’m not one of those who think Francoeur is some future Hall of Famer. So I have every reason to convince you that Francoeur really is as bad as he looks on the surface. But the truth is, he hasn’t been batting quite as bad as the results indicate.

By Doc Holliday

August 12, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this

Kotchman has only 1 multihit game in 12 games for the Braves. Thats not exactly what we were looking for, right?

4 RBI in 12 games, that rate aint good either.

Hitting .205 as a Braves.

I hope he is just adjusting.

By Doc Holliday

August 12, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this

Shaun

I never talked about walks nor Ks, I couldnt care less (if we are talking about JF). But everytime he comes to bat, its like Deja vu, and not only about him, but the pitchers. The all know what to do once he is in the batters box, and they do it. 5 inches off the strike zone in any direction, specially down and away or very high, and he will hack at it.

Poor guy, right now he looks like a joke, a very bad one. I just hope you and cox are right. I dont think so though. I actually think he is another Chuck James or Ryan Langerhans, choose your weapon.

By Shaun

August 12, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this

I have a theory on Francoeur: He made it clear before the season started that he wanted to change his approach at the plate—draw more walks, etc.

Well, he’s pretty much succeeded in that regard. He’s drawing more walks, striking out less often. But in doing that he’s actually hit more line-drives and grounders and fewer fly balls. And you can’t hit homers without deep fly balls. So basically he’s bettered his approach at the expense of power, seems to me. He just needs to learn about how to keep the same approach but maybe swing for the fence a little more when he gets a pitch to hit.

By Shaun

August 12, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this

Doc Holliday, but that’s my point. He’s actually not “hacking” and missing as often as he has in years past. His approach has actually improved in terms of walking more and striking out less. He just needs to learn to keep the approach but add more lift when he does make contact.

True, his results have not helped the Braves nor himself this year at all. But he’s actually made progress in certain aspects of his approach and there is reason to be somewhat optimistic.

I have all the incentive in the world to tell you Francoeur really is this bad. I’ve been saying he’s overrated even when he was driving in 100 runs. But the truth is there is reason to be optimistic.

By Mike

August 12, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this

He just needs to learn about how to keep the same approach but maybe swing for the fence a little more when he gets a pitch to hit.

Shaun, he has terrible pitch recognition. How is he ever to do what you proposed? It hasn’t gotten much better since day one….

By NCBravesFan

August 12, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this

Shaun: I agree with you on Francouer @ 12:46pm. He actually made adjustments in this regard last year as well - trying to go the other way, etc. His homers dropped down significantly from 2006 in the process (from 29 to 19).

By David O'Brien

August 12, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this

Original Jon, moves the Braves make now are aimed more toward the future. If they were still aiming for the here-and-now, for this season, they wouldn’t have traded Tex for Kotchman. They would ridden it out with Tex and taken the draft picks.

That said, they weren’t going to give up anything to get Dunn and pay his salary the rest of this season, for what? He’s going to get a huge contract, and a lot of teams (not just Braves, but I’d dare so most teams) have no interest in paying the kind of dollars he’s going to get for a poor defensive outfielder who hits a a lot homers and has a solid OBP, but who’s hitting under .235 for the second time in three seasons and has a career .247 average with 1,212 strikeouts in 3,727 at-bats.

That’s Ryan Howard-esque, yes, but with fewer homers, a helluva lot fewer RBI, and a lot fewer hits that aren’t homers.

And did I mention a bad defensive outfielder? Move him to first, and you’ve probably got a mediocre or bad defensive 1B putting up poor-man’s Ryan Howard numbers. Only not a poor man. A very rich man.

By Doc Holliday

August 12, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this

Shaun

So you are saying he can keep up his experiment next year??? Isnt AA and AAA the place where he should have done that?

He is costing the Braves. Having him in the lineup is like having 2 pitchers……..great arm but batting zux.

He is doing as bad as he can. Not helping the team at all. If he needs to find out how to hit for average, get his ks down, walks up and hit for power, Id say thats nice, but Id say he do that in AAA not in the majors, too much in stake up there.

By Renegator

August 12, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this

I agree with Mike at 12:58. His biggest problem is pitch recognition. Until he stops swinging at the low and outside (off the plate) pitches and the high ones that are at eye level - he isn’t going to get any pitches to drive.

Why would any pitcher throw him a strike at this point?

By KC

August 12, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this

Went to the Caray memorial this morning at the Ted. What a jewel Skip was. Truly, truly one of a kind.

I suspect there will be a Skip Caray statue at Turner Field next season, as there should be.

By Doc Holliday

August 12, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this

I have to tip my hat Shaun. I must be blind. I consider myself very patient and optimistic, but I dont think it is smart to make this kind of experiment. Braves need production and are counting on him.

I manny or Bay were in LF and TEX at 1B and Chipper was healthy for 155 games a year, Id say OK, lets keep the faith on JF (or maybe not even then), but the truth is that he is blocking a position and costing the braves in the process.

By Kentavo

August 12, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this

Well, we need someone Sheffield-like in the outfield, minus the attitude, I suppose. Someone that has a fearsome stick.

If that someone is procured - either via trade or free agency - I think Blanco would have more value to the team. He’d be just fine in CF if flanked by more productive, thummping corner OFs.

By Chopdawg

August 12, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

Doc, your standards for RF’s are pretty high; don’t see more than a half-dozen Nat’l League OF’ers who’re on that pace this season.

Not that it wouldn’t be great to have a RF’er with those numbers, but they don’t grow on trees.

CHOP

By Shaun

August 12, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

Mike and Renegator, He has enough pitch recognition to improve his strikeout rate and walk rate this season. So why couldn’t he improve his power? Maybe he won’t, but should we just assume he can’t?

Doc, I don’t know. The Braves probably realize Francoeur’s talent and probably don’t want him to be in the minors when he breaks out.

Also, I wouldn’t say it’s experimenting as much as making adjustments and trying to get better. John Smoltz was “experimenting” into his 40s because he was trying to still get better.

By nolie

August 12, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

I apologize for not reading the ENTIRE blog. I find it difficult to do when some people post entire Magazine articles that take up about 800 lines of the blog.Original Jon

got an ADD problem, huh bubba? No problem at all dude, just scroll right on by. Pretty damn stoopid to use that as an excuse for not reading the rest of the blog though.

By KC

August 12, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this

If your Charlie Morton, how do you top your last performance?

You beat Harden tonight.

Folks, in all likelihood, the Braves will play the rest of this season for nothing more than pride, and to see how the roster should shape up next season. But… the season isn’t over.

Where the 08 Braves are, in my view, is rather like a team that’s down 0-2 in a 5-game series. Or maybe a team down 0-2 in a short series would be in slightly better shape than the Braves are in now… I don’t know. But I don’t think the situation is quite as bad as being down 0-3 in a 7-games series. In either event, however, it’s not over just yet.

It would take a semi-miraculous Rockies-like run (winning 16-18 of 20) for the Braves to jump back in the race.

Highly unlikely… but not impossible.

I don’t think it’s going to happen, but I don’t think it’s time to talk about these Braves as nothing more than spoilers. Though, if they lose either of the next 2 series… it probably will be time to completely and totally abandon all hope.

Don’t get me wrong… I’m certainly not holding my breath here. But if your team’s down 0-2 in a short series, you at least pay attention and hope for an unlikely comeback, don’t you?

Any hopes the Braves have of playing .650-700 baseball the rest of the way will rest on Hampton and Glavine. If Hampton can pitch more often from here on out the way he pitched in SF, and Glavine is relatively sharp… they can at least put a product on the field that’s fun to watch for the next 7 weeks.

By Doc Holliday

August 12, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this

but that’s my point. He’s actually not “hacking” and missing as often as he has in years past. Shaun

Is that a fact? Maybe his Ks are down and his walks up as you say (I have not checked), but he is hacking and missing pal………. As a matter of fact we should change his nick. What about “Butcher” or maybe “lumberjack”???, that would be appropriate.

By Original Jon

August 12, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this

Ahhh, I see now DOB, it all makes more sense now that you explained it that way, thanks brotha.

By I can't take it anymore

August 12, 2008 1:37 PM | Link to this

Why are people still talking about making the playoffs?

By McFann :Ô:

August 12, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this

Doc H or Mc hit .270 and bounce back next year and hit .295

Well, he did hit exactly .270 last year…Or is that your point?

By Salty

August 12, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this

When he’s healthy he’s a good hitter, but he hasn’t been all that healthy for some time.

Lew, is that mental or physical health…or both? LOL!

By northbeach Scott

August 12, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this

Shaun, I greatly respect your perspective and agree that there may be some cause for optimism regarding Frenchy improving. Nevertheless, he is so low and so ineffectual at this point virtually anything would be an improvement. Just not much likelihood that he will get it together. He seems to be in the same zone that Andruw entered about 23 months ago and there is virtually no hope of escape.

I predicted last year that Andruw would be out of MLB by the time he was 33. Looks like it may actually be 32. Likewise, I believe Frenchy will be out of MLB baseball by 27. He is not in a slump—he’s an incompetent hitter.

Few players have made me so disgusted hitting for the Braves. He is hopeless and a detriment to the team. Not sure why he is still on the 25 man roster.

I have recently decided that I will not renew my season tickets if one of these two actions occur: 1)Frenchy is on the major league roster or 2)Cox is still managing Los Bravos for 09. I am no longer willing to throw my money away on bad baseball.

Love my Braves and have since 1966, but the organization needs to make some significant changes, not just tweaks to the roster.

By Shaun

August 12, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this

Doc Holliday, yes, it is a fact that his K rate has dropped and his walk rate is higher. (Check out fangraphs.com or just do the math yourself on pretty much any stat page you can find.)

I don’t get your point when you say, “Maybe his Ks are down and his walks up as you say (I have not checked), but he is hacking and missing pal.”

He’s not hacking and missing so much so that he’s striking out as often or more often as he has in years past. So what’s your point? Not trying to be rude, just trying to understand your point.

By Mike

August 12, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this

Shaun, I’ll make a prediction and say that he doesn’t improve his plate discipline all that much.

I expect a 270/315/430 line for Frenchy next season. 745 OPS for a corner bat won’t do it for a team that is trying to win a division/playoff birth.

By NCBravesFan

August 12, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this

KC Good points @ 1:26pm. Since the Phils, Mets and Marlins are not playing each other again until August 26th, it’s pretty much make a move in the standings now for the Braves, or start planning for 2009.

I think the Braves need to wake up August 26th and be five games or less out of first. If they could somehow get into third place, so much the better.

A tall order for sure given the Braves schedule between now and then.

By THB

August 12, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this

Shaun-You said something about how his line-drive rate is up. I refuse to accept that. I read an article a couple months back on how his line-drive rate is about the same and this and that, but I know for a fact that his “line-drives” are softly hit and more or less a bloop hit. I think his approach has improved, like you said, but it has messed with his ability to hit balls hard.

By Doc Holliday

August 12, 2008 2:04 PM | Link to this

Also, I wouldn’t say it’s experimenting as much as making adjustments and trying to get better. John Smoltz was “experimenting” into his 40s because he was trying to still get better. Shaun

Smoltz was experimenting and winning while doing it.

Is Jeff doing just that?

McFann

That was my point. same as you could expect Santana win 18 games next year for the muts or Renteria hit .310 next year. But Jeff? I think he is walking the same Barry Zito walked, but he lasted less than Zito. Good thing Braves didnt make the same mistake SF did.

By Mike

August 12, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this

I think the Braves will eventually trade Jeff in 2010 when they decide Jason Heyward is ready.

By Doc Holliday

August 12, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

Shaun

I understand what that his K/BB ratio is better……..I believe you.

But my point is, he is still hacking at everything that looks comes toward homeplate and its not like an intentional walk pitch.

From where I watch games, it looks to me like if he was hacking and hacking and hacking……….to me it looks like a never ending nightmare. Everytime he comes to bat it feels like if fell asleep and Freddy Kruger is coming. Maybe is not how often he Ks but how bat he looks while doing it.

And maybe is not how often he Ks, but even when he is not striking out, he swings at 2 or 3 awful pitches and then grounds out or pops up because he has to protect the plate and swings at a pitchers pitch.

So the fact the he has absolutely no idea of the pitches he is looking at makes him look very bad, even if he is not striking out.

Im sure they dont keep the stat, but if they did, he would be the leader at swinging and missing. Why? because he swings at everything. then when he is at 0-2, 1-2 etc, he goes into “protect the plate mode” and hit a little grounder, pop up or Ks.

I would have to agree with “Mike”, and im not sure if he went a little high with his prediction (stats).

By Wayne in Utah

August 12, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this

In the 6th inning on Sunday, right before Jeff bounced into an inning ending DP, why was Infante swinging at the first pitch, when Webb had walked 2 of the 3 previous batters?

Oh, and by watching the game Sunday, I finally figured out what Francoeur’s problem is: He isn’t hitting worth a damn!

By McFann :Ô:

August 12, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

Doc H.—

OK. Yeah, it is nice that the Braves didn’t pull a San Fran here…Cann you imagine?

Later.

By Bobby's Cox

August 12, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this

shaun

Sounds like you need to change your approach on Francoeur’s approach.

Strikeouts: Francoeur is striking out every 5.64 PA this year, down from 5.38 PA in 2007 and 5.19 PA in 2006.

If that’s improvement to you, then it’s going to take 5 years for Jeff to decrease his K rate to every 8 PA at his current 2-year average of improvement (8%). He’s still on pace to strikeout over 100 times this year. 15 more K’s and he’ll do that. Should happen in what, 2 weeks?

Walks: Francoeur is drawing a walk every 15.97 PA this year. That’s up from 16.57 PA in 2007 and 29.82 PA in 2006. Not much improvement from last year. I hope you don’t find that satisfactory.

Hit Trajectory: Francoeur had 79 line drive hits last year. This year he has 47. Last year he had 64 ground ball hits. This year he has 28. Last year he had 44 fly ball hits. This year he has 24. Looks to me to be the same pattern as last year, except he won’t reach ANY of those totals this year.

Plain and simple, the guy is lost. I’m gonna have to agree with DOC here and say this guy shouldn’t be trying to figure it out on the Big-League club.

Keep in mind, those minuscule improvements you’re talking about are coming at mass declines in HR, RBI, SB, 2B, TB, R, SLG %, and BA. Not acceptable.

I don’t care if the kid was born in Turner Field itself, he should not be playing everyday. I understand the organization and local media has spent countless dollars advertising the kid. Unfortunately they have to play the cards this way, not the right way.

By KC

August 12, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this

NCBravesFan:

Yup. Again, it would take a semi-miraculous comeback for the Braves to steal this division… but what a story that would be, huh? After all the injuries, and a huge deficit to overcome. Unlikely, but fun to think about.

In any event, there are a few things the Braves really want to have happen over the next 7 weeks. They want to see:

1 - Campillo and Jurrjens continue doing what they’re doing, and reassure the Braves that they have at least 1 or 2 top-of-rotation caliber starters next year, even without Hudson.

2 - Charlie Morton demand (with his performance) a place in the 09 rotation. And do so with enough consistency, mental toughness, and variety of weapons, to reassure the Braves that he’s not the next Kyle Davies or Chuck James (soon to fizzle out).

3 - Blanco keep performing well and developing as a pesky and consistent leadoff hitter.

4 - Kotchman start swinging a hot bat, and reassure the team that he’ll be an offensive asset next season.

5 - Escobar get his numbers up a little bit. Haven’t had much offense from the 2-hole. I think the consensus is that Escobar is better offensively than what we’ve seen this year.

I didn’t even include Frenchy in any of this because his turnaround (if indeed he does turn it around) isn’t going to come this year. Sometimes good players have years where they just can’t get it together, and nothing other than a few months away from the game and a fresh start the next year, will help them out of their funk.

Then again, there are players who fizzle out early for no apparent reason whatsoever. I think we’ll know which scenario best describes Francoeur by the end of next April. But I wouldn’t look for anything to change this year. Just like Hudson in 06, at this point, a full off-season is the only possible cure.

Anyway, if the Braves can see the above 5 things happen, I think they’ll feel good heading into this winter with some money to spend.

By jb

August 12, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this

Doc

Even though is average and whatnot haven’t improved, he has looked a lot better at the plate these past couple weeks. And doesn’t the fact that he has walked more and is striking out less prove that he isn’t swinging and missing nearly as much? He’s been hitting the ball the other way much more frequently and has stopped roling over the ball quite so much. Also, Santana has only won 18 or more games twice in his 8 year career and is in his 2nd straight year of having just over a .500 record, so I don’t think that it should be expected that he win 18 games next year.

By Bobby's Cox

August 12, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this

JF’s 2008 K/BB: 2.83

2007 K/BB: 3.07

I almost guarantee that by the end of the year, 2.83 goes up, not down.

For example, if Francoeur K’s in his next 5 AB before drawing a walk, his K/BB will be 3.0 (90/30), almost the same as it was last year. With Harden pitching tonight, I like those odds.

Anyone feel different?

By David O'Brien

August 12, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

NEW BLOG in the pipeline, coming up any moment….

By Lee in S GA

August 12, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this

KC

I tend to agree about the 5 things you stated the Braves will be looking out for the remainder of this season. The team could also be sizing up what to do about Prado, Lillibridge and Johnson. You would figure one of those 3 are gone in a trade by or during spring training next season. Which one is anybody’s guess. I agree about Francouer also, he is a big question mark at this time and the 1st couple of months next season will either make or break him, at least as far remaining a Brave.

By Bobby's Cox

August 12, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this

DOB

Nice angle on Dunn.

That’s exactly why I don’t want to see him here.

By BravesFanInRockies

August 12, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

Francouer’s walk rate may be up because in some ABs (esp. with no one one, when his OBP is at its highest, .320 —ugh), he seems determined to take the first pitch and if it’s a ball, he just won’t swing the bat or he’ll work a walk. That’s good.

With men on, however, he’s hopeless against fastballs that are at shoulder level and breaking pitches that are in the dirt and outside.

So his pitch recognition seems to be better if he’s not in an RBI situation. Unfortunately, those are situations where he needs to show more discipline and by not doing so, he’s hurting the team.

By Shaun

August 12, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this

THB, right. I think my point was basically the same as yours—his improved approach has taken away some of his power.

Doc, according to fangraphs.com, Francoeur’s contact rate is higher this year than his career contact rate.

By George

August 27, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this

Way to go braves,We trade Saulty who could catch or play 1st base for Mark who could only play 1st, Then we trade him for a sore back Mark center fielder, Then we trade that Mark for a minor league unknown, So After all that trading the Braves end up empty handed. Smart-Smart,It would not surprise me if they traded Prado d for some 45 year old Pitcher after all he is the only one hitting right now,Shoot no use keeping him he gets too many hits

By tlin iaphkxfq

November 13, 2008 7:29 AM | Link to this

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