AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2008 > July > 23 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USThis isn’t funny-like-a-clown funny
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Miami — So I’m listening to this recording of an interview I did yesterday with Will Ohman, and in the background you can here a great scene — “Am I funny like a clown? Do I amuse you? — from the movie Goodfellas, which they were showing on DVD in the visitor’s clubhouse yesterday.
Anyway, it seemed appropriate for some strange reason. Maybe I’m just tired.
As for the interview, I was doing it for the WSB thing I do, the 45-second bites that air during drive-time in early mornings in Atlanta. And I asked Ohman about the mood in the clubhouse during this difficult time when it seems the season is dying on the vine.
“The mood in the clubhouse is one of purpose,” he said before last night’s game. “Obviously we understand there’s a truncated timetable for us to turn things around and start playing better baseball. So I think everyone’s aware of that, but we’re not letting it be something that’s consuming us.”
(Yes, he really said “truncated.” Hey, he went to Pepperdine.)
Any more games like last night’s 4-0 shutout, in which the Braves mustered just one hit, and you can bet it’s going to tougher to keep it from consuming them. Because when the Braves get home from this trip, they’re going to still have two months left in the season, and it could be two months like this organization hasn’t spent in a long, long time.
Even last season, the Braves had legitimate hope until the last couple of weeks of the season. And the year before, 2006, when their 14-division-title run ended, they had optimism in the clubhouse because the young Braves talked of being fired up to begin a new streak the following year and all that.
Well, that hasn’t panned out, and now the Braves are headed for a third consecutive postseason without them involved, unless Mark Teixeira or Will Ohman or perhaps Mark Kotsay is playing for another playoff-bound team after the July 31 trade deadline.
They’re all eligible for free agency after the season, and the Braves aren’t likely to bring back any of them. If Kotsay’s back had held up all season, I’d guess they might try to re-sign him given the uncertainty now surrounding CF prospect Jordan Schafer since Schafer’s 50-game HGH suspension and his lackluster play in Double-A since he got back from that suspension.
But Kotsay’s back is a problem, and I can’t see the Braves going into next season with him penciled in as their CF, as much as everyone including manager Bobby Cox loves having the guy in the lineup and in the clubhouse.
Anyway, where was I? Oh, yeah, Ohman.
I asked him a question with you denizens in mind, or at least some of you. The ones who keep asking why Cox isn’t “held accountable” for the team’s performance this season.
I asked Ohman if he agreed with those who sugges that much blame should be placed at the feet of Cox. Keep in mind, this isn’t a player who’s spent 10 years playing for Cox, not one who’s enjoyed winning seasons under him.
It’s Ohman, who came here from the Cubs and who knows, because of a likely big raise he’s going to get as a free agent, that he’s not going to be here beyond this season, and that there’s a good chance he won’t be here beyond July 31.
“I don’t think you can place any blame on Bobby for what’s gone on,” he said. “It’s been an unfortunate scenario where we’ve lost some really high-profile guys who we came out of spring training counting on their presence on this team, and that’s always difficult to come back from.
“But you look at the way guys — obviously I’m in the bullpen — you look at what those [relievers] have done down there when thrust into roles that maybe they weren’t fully prepared for, and how we’ve succeeded, and I think that’s a good test of character.”
Coming back to the Cox question, Ohman continued:
“I think that blame is placed at the feet of the manager far too many times. He’s writing out the lineup card, but we’re the ones playing the game. So if we lose, unfortunately, it’s something that reflects on him but it’s not necessarily losing the game. I don’t think that would be correct to even suppose that would be the case.”
When someone suggested that Cox isn’t managing any differently than he did all those years the Braves enjoyed so much success and he won multiple Manager of the Year awards, Ohman agreed.
“Unfortunately,” he said, “we haven’t gotten the timely hit, or the timely out, made the pitch — whatever the case may be, you can generally go to one play per game that really turns the tide, and unfortunately we just haven’t been able to put that together.”
Mets meltdown: A few hours after I told someone yesterday that I thought the Mets might just be ready to pull away from the pack, they had a devastating ninth-inning meltdown last night.
This after manager Jerry Manuel decided to pull a very effective Johan Santana after he’d thrown 105 pitches in eight innings.
Don’t know if that says more about the state of the game today - the highest paid pitcher in the game can’t go for a complete game when he’s only thrown 105 pitches? - or about Manuel’s instincts or what, but given that sore-shouldered closer Billy Wagner was unavailable to pitch, you gotta wonder what Jerry was thinking. Seriously.
Anyway, we’ll see if there’s any carry-over from that loss at Shea Stadium. We were watching on a clubhouse television at Dolphin Stadium, while waiting for Francoeur to come out after last night’s Braves loss, when the Phillies put together their huge ninth inning.
I was out in a hallway (there’s TVs all over the place in there) and I heard Bobby Cox shout, “What happened?” from his office. I looked in and he had the remote in his hand; he’d just clicked back to the Phils-Mets game and the score had changed dramatically since he’d turned the channel a few minutes earlier.
Anyway, hey, it’s gonna be an interesting NL East race, without or without the Braves.
By the way, the Jose Reyes defensive gaffe in last night’s game on a would-be double play, his poor decision to try to do it all himself, was a perfect example of why I didn’t have him on that list of 10 guys I’d build a team around in the NL when someone asked me yesterday.
Tonight’s game: Odds wouldn’t certainly seem to be in the Braves’ favor for tonight’s rubber game with the fledgling Fish. But of course, we’ve said that plenty of times before and it didn’t necessarily work out.
But really, tonight’s pitching matchup … it’s Tim Hudson vs. Ricky Nolasco. Hudson, who is 6-2 with a 2.84 ERA in 12 career starts against the Marlins, including 4-1 with a 2.95 ERA in seven at Miami. Against Nolasco, who’s 0-3 in his past four starts against the Braves, including two losses this season in which he’s been rolled for 21 hits, 13 runs and seven homers in 10-1/3 innings.
Chipper Jones is 9-for-14 with three homers against Nolasco, including 6-for-7 with three homers this season.
On the other hand, Hudson is 0-4 with a 4.74 ERA in his past seven road starts. And Nolasco was 9-1 with a 2.84 ERA in a span of 13 starts before giving up four runs and seven hits in seven innings of a loss Friday against Philadephia.
That loss snapped a four-start home winning streak in which Nolasco had posted a 1.29 ERA and .160 opponents’ average. So we’ll see. Could be a good one tonight.
Speaking of Ohman… He’s 2-0 with a 2.25 ERA and .130 opponents’ average in his past 23 appearances, and all of the five earned runs he’s allowed in that span came in one two-out appearance against Seattle on June 20.
In his other 22 games in that stretch, he’s allowed one unearned run, six hits and five walks with 19 strikeouts in 19-1/3 innings.
It’s too bad the Braves probably couldn’t find a way to squeeze a $3-plus mill salary for him into next year’s payroll along with the combined $9-10 mill they’re going to probably be paying relievers Mike Gonzalez and Rafael Soriano.
Francoeur with bases juiced: I’ve gotten more than a dozen e-mails from people since his at-bat last night, The At-Bat, when Francoeur struck out swinging at four straight bad pitches after Florida’s VandenHurk had walked the bases loaded with three consecutive walks to start the inning.
Many called it the worst at-bat they’ve seen all season. Some said the worst they’ve seen in their lifetimes.
I would have a hard time disagreeing.
Anyway, for those who think the Braves absolutely stink with bases loaded, actually they don’t. Not as a team, overall.
They rank third in the NL with a .282 average (29-for-103) with bases loaded, and fourth with a .307 OBP in those situations.
But Francoeur is just 3-for-22 with no walks and seven strikeouts in those situations, and that’s twice as many at-bats as any other Brave has had with bases loaded (so yeah, his work in those spots does come to mind, understandably).
Without Francoeur’s 3-for-22, the rest of the Braves have a combined .321 average (26-for-81), including Chipper’s 3-for-4 with one walk, Mark Teixeira’s 5-for-10 with a walk and a hit-by-pitch (.538 OBP), and Brian McCann’s 5-for-11 with two doubles.
Tune for a daughter: The late, great Townes Van Zandt wrote this song for his daughter Katie Belle. You gotta hear him sing it in his distinct, whiskey-ravaged Texas twang to get a full apprecation, but the words alone are gorgeous.
”KATIE BELLE BLUE” by Townes Van Zandt
There is no deeper blue
in the ocean that lies
as deep as the blue
of your laughing eyes
no sweeter sound
than your gentle sigh
no heart was ever so pure
Dream pretty dreams
touch beautiful things
let all the skies surround you
swim with the swans
and believe that upon
some glorious dawn
love will find you
Come some day
I’m bound away
wind and wings on the water
whatever may
you must stay
and remain my beautiful daughter
There is no deeper blue
in the ocean that lies
as deep as the blue
of your laughing eyes
no sweeter sound
than your gentle sigh
no heart was ever so pure
Good night Katie Belle, good night
.JPG)
Services »
Comments
By SpensBross
July 23, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
We’re all familiar with Bill Buckner’s error in game 6 of the 1986 WS.
Some of us will also be familiar with Merkyl’s Boner….forgetting to touch second on a single that would have cemented a world series spot for the Cubs (it was then a forceout).
We’ve seen Canseco bounce a ball off of his head into the outfield stands.
As baseball fans we’ve seen it all, but ladies and gentlemen, history was made this very night.
The night of July 22, 2008 occurred the single worst AB in major league history.
That’s right! There must be millions of AB in the history of the Majors…but tonight, we have witnessed history!
Created by the one…
The only….
The beard……!!!!!
JEFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF ‘FRENCHY’ FRANCOEUR!!!!!
Yes, of course, I’m talking about the bases loaded, no out, AB in the 4th inning tonight. Four pitches at eye level (and the last one, I swear, was even higher), so predictable, so terrible, and yet so funny.
I gotta tell you all, I turned to my dad and said ‘You know, earlier in the season, he’d just ground out to SS, but at least we’d score a run. He’ll strike out, I bet you’.
And he did.
Our homegrown boy!
I must laugh at the FO for their Francoeur move. Send Francoeur down for three games…he’ll work it out. He didn’t work anything out…except a hissy fit.
So here’s the thing….when it’s time to resign Francoeur…we don’t. We just don’t.
By Chop Chop
July 23, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
There’s no gunfire in that famous scene from Goodfellas, DOB.
Tommy’s just busting Henry’s balls in the restaurant. Here’s the clip I’m talking about…
The famous Funny Guy scene
By big chief, no fart
July 23, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this
I’m all for a good fart joke; but, it needs to be one that sounds serious, not “guy walks into a bar” joke, or “indian chief walks into a drug store”, type joke that tips itself off at the intro.
Something that can be played off as dead serious, until the punch line.
By SLM
July 23, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the Townes Van Zandt tune—-I’ll be looking that up…Regarding the Francoeur at-bat, it is completely mind-boggling that after three straight walks he wouldn’t take even one pitch! It’s bad baseball at any level.
By It's all Scatalogical
July 23, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this
What’s wrong with fart jokes?
By i cant take it anymore
July 23, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this
Was the at-bat by Franker really THAT bad? Like andruw jones bad? nice blog, david.
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this
The braves shouldn’t emphasize that these games are important.
Obviously this team isn’t good under pressure, so putting pressure on them to perform isn’t going to go well.
By It's all Scatalogical
July 23, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this
Oh, I get it.
This blog needs more flatulence jokes.
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this
Braveheart
Great 2:03 post today on the last blog.
Looks like you came to play today. Watch out.
By f.n. hale
July 23, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this
DOB, He didn’t really say “truncated” did he? Big word for a relief pitcher. Does anyone here agree with me that the trade for Tex could go down as one of the worst ever? Not saying it will for sure, but if he walks at the end of the year and all we end up with are 3 picks for all those guys, and assuming some or all those guys live up to their projections it could be sooooo one sided. I realize that GM’s, as we all do, make educated guesses, and the better educated you are the better guesses you make, and JS has guessed right more often than he has wrong, but still…. I still think JS was as good as they come, though I do think he out punted his coverage a bit on this one, we won’t know for a few years.
By Nick
July 23, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
DOB, I love Cox, and have a lot of faith in Wren, but what would you say about their handling of Francouer?
Did they bring him back from Mississippi too early? Should they send him back twice in one season (what would that do to his confidence)? Has bobby hurt the team and his confidence by batting him 5/6 in all these high pressure, bases loaded situations?
If this situation doesn’t improve I’m wondering if a nasty divorce is in the near future, seeing as Francouer was extremely bitter about being sent down the first time.
By Original Jon
July 23, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
Chop Chop I dont think he was being literal with the whole Gunfire thing. It was a figure of speech.
By Novice Ned
July 23, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
I’m sorry, but after seeing almost daily updates on how badly Andruw was playing the past year or 2, why can’t we “pile on” Frenchy?
By It's all Scatalogical
July 23, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
Bobby Cox is full of beans!
By Chop Chop
July 23, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
Great song, by the way.
Anybody who’s ever been depressed, hit the bottle a few too many times, or found themselves brought a few rungs too low by life can identify with Townes Van Zandt. I’d still kick Steve Earle off Dylan’s table, though.
Ha.
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
Anyway, hey, it’s gonna be an interesting NL East race, without or without the Braves. DOB
Did you mean to type it that way….cuz it was one helluva line…
Pretty funny stuff DOB.
By THWG
July 23, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this
In some sort of lucky stroke for me, the power went out at my house (metro Atlanta) soon before the bases loaded debacle. So while I was spared the suffering of having to actually watch the inevitable, just listening to Frenchy whiff over and over with ducks on the pond I could tell it was probably not an at-bat that I (nor any young children) should have to witness.
By Chuck
July 23, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this
Two people are the reason for the team’s bad play this year: Tex and Frenchy. It doesn’t matter if Tex hits .400 the rest of the year, he stunk and got us 7 games out. Frenchy’s “unconventional” approach to hitting, which involves swinging at everything and relying on God-given talent to put it in play for a hit, left when he put on the extra weight - or when he started the Andruw ‘swing-so-hard-you-dip-your-head’ swing, take your pick. It’s a shame that with all the pitching injuries and patch-ups that have worked, those two guys have killed that great effort. Not that Kelly Johnson is playing well either, or that Escobar hasn’t given away his share of games with rookie mistakes. Even McCann is looking choke-prone these days. The disease is catching. I really hope they come out of it soon, soon, soon! But I’m afraid they just don’t have the healthy bats and power to do it.
By Nick
July 23, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this
DOB, are you thinking of the scene where he shoots the kid for talking back to him in front of the Fellas? Chop Chop is right, Pesci is pretending to get all p** off and then starts laughing about it.
By DHD
July 23, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
Will Wren panic? That will be the question. We’ll know the answer on August 1.
One concept I would consider would be to be a buyer AND a seller. Everybody asks which one we’ll be. We could do both. for example, sell Tex and get some young players AND pick up Jason Bay for some young players.
We need to prepare for next year. Then, sign Furcal in the off season. Lineup:
Furcal, ss….Escobar, 3b….Chipper, 1b….Bay, lf…..McCann, c…..Francoeur, rf…..Johnson, 2b….Blanco/Schafer, cf
By It's all Scatalogical
July 23, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
What about the batting drill where you write numbers on the baseball & the hitter has to recognize the number?
Even better, what about the drill where the BP pitcher farts on the ball and the hitter has to smell it?
It might help Frenchy compensate for loss of vision. Use the force, son!
By Cecil34
July 23, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this
After last night, there can be no question in anybody’s mind now - Jeff needs to go to Mississippi for the rest of the year.
If in fact he excels there, then see if he can excel at Richmond.
Since this season is 99.9 % in the tank, then there is no reason to let Jeff continue to flounder and be ridiculed up on the big club.
He can finish out down there at one of those two clubs this year, and then be invited to spring training to win his position back.
This is of course assuming he gets back on track down there. Remember, he did not spend that much time in the minors to begin with.
Frankly, there is nothing for him to accomplish on the big club this year, except take more of a PR black eye.
No doubt he made some statements the last demotion that he should have bit his tongue on, but remember, this is a man who has not had to deal with any real adversity in his ball-playing life.
He was always expected to be here. His parents, his friends and his boyhood and high school coaches knew he would be here. And treated him as such. He is a Parkview legend after all.
He has had success at every level, even the majors. But now it has left him surely as that strikeout last night attests to.
Can he get it back?
Heck yes….
It is all in how you handle him.
By i cant take it anymore
July 23, 2008 3:08 PM | Link to this
f.n. hale…I cant agree with you on the tex trade being the worst ever. I dont think it’s nowehere close to being the worst.
By GT80
July 23, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this
Anyway, hey, it’s gonna be an interesting NL East race, without or without the Braves.
Was that a freudian slip or just a reality check?
Regarding all the trade talks, if the Braves have so much trouble scoring runs, why do we think getting rid of the 2nd best offensive player, and best power hitter, on the team is going to help. You’ve got to spend some money on payroll to compete in this game, and if the Braves are just going to trade Tex because they don’t want to pay him, then why should fans pay to go watch them play.
DOB, do you think Tex just doesn’t want to resign with the Braves? If so, I guess the trade needs to happen.
But if he wants to resign, they need to do it, even if it is for 5 yrs @ $20M. This team needs some bats, and major league bats. Right now there are 3 in the lineup.
And Jeff’s AB, the worst AB ever? That’s harse…but probably true.
By brent a.
July 23, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
Glad to hear that Ohman is supportive of Cox.
Whenever a guy makes comments like that, it is interesting to pay attention to him; but, it’s also interesting to note who the comments are coming from.
Ohman hasn’t been around here for years. The things that people criticize Cox for are not necessarily things that Will Ohman would have seen consistently.
People get mad at Cox because of the way he coaches offense (and handles the bullpen). They get sick of seeing Yunel Escobar pop-out on the first pitch after a walk, instead of letting Gregor Blanco try and steal on a catcher who has not thrown anyone out all season.
They get frustrated at the team’s inability to hit in key situations, like last night, when they loaded the bases with nobody out, and failed to score. (Strangely reminiscent of last season’s game on 9/6 against the Mets, when the Braves loaded the bases with no one out in the 6th, and also failed to score - an inning that basically defined our entire season).
Yes, there are injuries, and yes they count.
But last night, in the 6th inning, Jeff Francoeur, Kelly Johnson, and Mark Kotsay were the ones who cost us, and they are not replacements for injured players. They are everyday guys whom the Braves expected to get good production from this season.
Many of us have been watching this stuff for years, and we are tired of the approach.
I’m not saying that Cox isn’t any good, or that he never was any good - he was GREAT! - but, the approach that is being taken does not seem to be effective with this bunch, and hasn’t for a few years.
Yes, it’s effective with Chipper and Smoltz, and seemingly McCann. It also was with Andruw Jones (at least Andruw said he loved Cox), even though AJ seemed to tune him out a bit in his last year and a half in Atlanta.
Plus, Ohman is a middle reliever. Now, I’ll admit that I’ve never spent time with a major league team; but I do wonder just how much attention a guy like Will Ohman pays to the offensive approach of guys like Jeff Francoeur and Kelly Johnson? It may be a ton, and I am happy to be mistaken about that. But even so, he’s only been here since the spring, and it may well be fair to say that Bobby’s great reputation and over-all approach to managing a club, may overshadow any negative feelings a guy like Ohman might develop toward Cox, based upon team performance.
Plus, Ohman has been given a nice opportunity, and has pitched well. He seems to be a solid professional, and based upon his strong performance, I’m sure that he and Bobby have had a great realationship this season.
Yes, we have had injuries.
But, injuries did not get us Corky Miller as back up catcher.
Where injuries did bite us is the time we spent without Chipper, the time we spent without Kotsay, and the time we spent without Escobar. Prado’s injury also hurt.
And yes, I can see how that has cost us some offensive production.
Losing Smoltz, Glavine, Hampton, and Soriano also hurt, but over-all, the pitching has been good.
But, from my very limited perspective, injuries to the team have not led to our offense nearly being no-hit in three of its last 11 games.
There seems to be an approach issue with this team. Yes, injuries affect that, but it’s not solely injuries.
I like Bobby, I want him to succeed; but, you can’t just sit back and ignore our recent post-season failures and struggles of the last 3 seasons, and say that it is strictly on the players.
If it is on the players, and only on the players, then there would be no need for managers, bench coaches, etc. There is a reason why those guys get paid as handsomely as they do, and it isn’t just so they can be fired when things go badly for a team.
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this
What will the arbitrator give Frenchy next year? We know the braves won’t sign him since Frenchy wants too much and the Braves now want to see how he’ll do in ‘09.
So, how much will the arbitrator give him? He’s had 2 seasons of 100+ RBI, 1 season 1 HR shy of 30, and 1 season 1 HR shy of 20. But, he could finish this year in AJ territory with a .220 BA, with less HR (14) and less RBI (75).
Will he get awarded very good pay $10 million discounted by 33.3% for the awful year (6.67 million for ‘09)? What do you all think he’s worth next year?
By timthebrave
July 23, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
Tex wasn’t the worst trade ever. Not by a long shot. So we gave up Saltalamaccia(?) who would be playing every 4th game and doing only slightly better than corky. You don’t expect him to beat out Mccann do you? It was a good move and gave us a chance to win it all. We also go Ring and Dotel and will get 2 more minor leaugers after the season. It didn’t work out because of injuries, bad luck, whatever but still I liked the move then and I’m glad we got the balls to pull the plug on big time trades
By tvsportscaster
July 23, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this
f.n. hale in regards to your 2:57 post saying that perhaps the Tex trade was the worst the Braves ever made, I give you the Brett Butler, Rick Behenna, Brook Jacoby trade for Len Barker, and the J.D. Drew for Adam Wainwright’s trade as ranking worse. Besides the guys traded for Tex had no place to play in Atlanta. Salty was blocked by McCann and Andrus was blocked by both Escobar, Lillibridge and Hicks. So no, the Texieria trade was not the worst the Braves have ever made.
By cabravesfan
July 23, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this
For those of you who are still advocating signing Rafael Furcal for next year (DHD not meant as a shot at you- there have been plenty of others who have suggested it as well)- He is dealing with a pretty serious back injury and is currently on the 60 day DL- do we really want to risk signing another guy with a questionable back? Besides- we have a pretty good SS already…
By etownbrave
July 23, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this
Listening to Pete VanWieren on the radio, I told my son JF would swing at each pitch as it went higher and higher. And of course, he did. You just knew that was what the pitcher was going to throw and JF just could not stop himself from swinging. Again, bases loaded and no score! A loss tonight and one would guess that the mood in the clubhouse will be quiet and somber. Trades would have to bring immediate returns and if not, then hold fast and wait for the draft picks next year. I have not waved the white flag and will always have hope as long as the Braves are on the field.
By brent a.
July 23, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this
Tex trade is not the worst ever.
We got a good player, who has provided good (and at times, great) offensive production.
Lots of teams get good players and then lose.
Bad trades are when you give up some young stud who becomes an absoulute stude for a stop-gap solution, or a guy who gets vertigo, or something.
Kobe Bryant for Vlade Divac was a bad trade.
Unless one of the studs we sent to Texas becomes an absolute superstar, this trade was actually a pretty fair trade. The only real problem, as I saw it, was the way we ended up sticking in an extra player at the end due to some injury concerns.
Plus, we also got Mahay. Who was pretty good, IIRC. (Which, to be honest, I don’t, because the end of last season was so depressing).
By Tardy71
July 23, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this
Despite how you want to sugar coat it this team isnt going anywhere with the current lineup! It has been abundantly clear that trades have to be made to shake things up at the very least!
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this
*It’s all Scatalogical *
Now that’s the type of practice I was talking about! Get to work JF!
By Tardy71
July 23, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this
Despite how one may want to sugar coat it this team isnt going anywhere with the current lineup! It has been abundantly clear that trades have to be made to shake things up at the very least! Trading Tex for some young pitching and some outfield help would be a big step in that direction. The key is to get players that are major leaguers or almost at that level!
By braves70
July 23, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this
DOB, Thanks for asking Ohman about Booby Cox. I am not sure we got a straight answer from Ohman. It certainly is not an answer with which I agree. I think Booby Cox is a big reason this season has been a disaster.
Ohman probably learned his lesson from Chicago. He said some things which probably caused him to get traded to the Braves to start with.
From the December 4, 2007 Chicago Daily Herald: The 30-year-old Ohman, a 1998 draft choice of the Cubs, got himself into the organization’s bad graces in August, when he was optioned to Class AAA Iowa. On his way out, he told reporters his left shoulder had been “barking.”
Later that week, Ohman went on WSCR radio in Chicago and said the medical staff and trainers knew about the injury, but that manager Lou Piniella was not told.
Everybody from the front office to the trainers to Ohman’s teammates felt Ohman had done the trainers an injustice. Ohman was part of the Cubs’ September call-ups, but he maintained a quiet presence in the clubhouse the rest of the season.
By brent a.
July 23, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
timthebrave
Ring and Dotel were acquired in two separate deals.
Ring from San Diego (for who knows what?) and Dotel from Kansas City for Kyle Davies.
By bgvt
July 23, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
Chuck —
I don’t buy your “two people to blame story” at all. Sure JF is a huge part of the problem but what exactly did you expect from Tex?
He is on pace to drive in about 118 runs, hit 31 HR, his average is .278, OBP is .383, SLG is .504, and OPS is .887.
Let’s compare that to his numbers in previous years. His career AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS is .285/.372/.535/.907. Much of that was in a better hitters’ park than the Ted. The 31 HR’s and 119 RBI’s are pretty typical of Tex — maybe ever so slightly below an average year for him. He certainly isn’t more than a two-week hot streak from being better than his career numbers.
If I wanted to point fingers, here is my list:
JF
very little power from LF (Diaz / Blanco) or CF (Kotsay / Blanco)
Injured starting pitching leading to the inconsistencies of Jo-Jo and Morton. Together, those two have started 22 games (more than 20% of the team’s total) and have an ERA of 5.28. Not good.
Ever shifting roles in the bullpen. They’ve done an admirable job but one wonders how much better the pen could have been with Moylan and Soriano having years anywhere close to last year.
KJ and Yunel taking steps backwards instead of a big step forwards in terms of offense.
Tex having a slightly subpar year.
The positives (relative to expectations):
JJJ stepping up bigtime.
Campillo surprising everyone as a starter.
Chipper having a great year.
McCann continuing to develop into a star.
By It's all Scatalogical
July 23, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this
Bobby Cox knows that it is far tougher to make up ground in August/September than in May/June.
By McFann :Ô:
July 23, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
Chuck—
“Choke prone”?
With RISP, McCann is hitting .295 (28-95).
With the bases loaded, he’s hitting .455 (5-11).
His AVG with runners on base is .310 (48-155).
Choke prone?
By KT
July 23, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
How much money do you have to make playing a sport before you are consumed by losses? On one hand, I get Ohman’s point - dont let the losses get to your head. Still, if you are paid ridiculous amounts of money to play baseball, you should expect to win and be angry when you dont. Watching movies in the club house after getting one hit is unacceptable. They should have been taking mandatory batting practice. For that, I do hold Cox and Pendleton accountable. They cant physically go out and win the games but they can ight a fire under these guys and make sure they understand that losing is not what is expected when you wear a Braves uniform. That is what the problem is right now. The one time they take a stand on Francouer, he complains to the press and they bring him back after three games. There are too many games in a season and players start to get complacent about a loss here and there. Next thing you know, youre in fourth place, seven games back. The only thing the Braves should be watching on TV is that commercial for the hitting DVD that Fred McGriff used to hawk…
By McFann :Ô:
July 23, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this
BTW:
Thanks for the new blog, Chief!
And the Braves are like a clown sometimes…I mean, they cann be scary!
By It's all Scatalogical
July 23, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this
Ohman was part of the Cubs’ September call-ups, but he maintained a quiet presence in the clubhouse the rest of the season.
Silent but deadly.
By Token Gringo
July 23, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this
I’m kinda tired of Frenchy bashing. It sure as heck isn’t helping him.
By joe
July 23, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this
Even if they were still in the race people would only be paying attention for about one more month at the most. That is when College Football starts.
By N8
July 23, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this
GT80
Your comment about Tex is true. I don’t think he’s “worth” over 20-25 million per year. But is ANYBODY really “worth” that much money.
Maybe it’s worth it to the Braves to break the bank on him, with all the other dollars coming off the book (Glavine - maybe Smoltz), and still spend the rest of the money wisely.
I’ve always been a guy that would rather have 3 guys making around 8-10 million dollars and being consistent (even if that means consistently average or slightly better than average), rather than having one guy making 20 million and 2 other guys making league minimum.
Maybe you catch lightning in a bottle and the “cheap” (usually young) guys have monster years and it all works out.
I’m with you. If they CAN sign Tex to a reasonable contract (without a full no-trade clause), and leave enough wiggle room to move him before he becomes a 10/5 guy. Then by all means do it.
While he is not capable of carrying his teams, he’s a nice part of any team. That’s for sure.
But if LM doesn’t raise payroll, I surely don’t want one guy taking up 20 percent of the payroll. That’s a recipe for disaster. If there is a sense by Wren that there is ZERO chance he’ll re-sign at a rate they can live with, and they can get more for him in a trade than they feel the draft picks will bring…..move him.
DOB
I’m with you on Ohman. It would be nice to keep him, and I’m a guy that wasn’t sold on him right away. He’s been outstanding for a couple of months now.
But there’s a growing sense in me that thinks he might actually bring more than Tex will. Because a team like the Yankees can trade for him, and then be assured to outbid anybody for a middle reliever. 3 million per year (or so) for a guy like Ohman, for a 2 or 3 year contract is NOTHING to the Yankees, but a lot of money for a team like the Braves to commit to a guy that’s NOT gonna be closing. Especially with Soriano and Gonzo on the roster next year.
But I tell you what. I think the team might be better served to invest 13 million into a trio of reliable end of the game relievers (Ohman, Gonzo and Soriano), than to invest 25 million into Tex. More “bang” for the buck, IMO.
As for his comments on Cox. As I’ve always said, I have no problem NOT blaming Cox for the failures of the past 2-3 seasons. Just so long as the people that find that notion ridiculous (players, media and other bloggers), aren’t insisting that Cox is the ONE REASON that the teams of the 90’s were as successful as they were.
It can’t go both ways. If he’s not responsible for failure of guys struggling, he’s not responsible for the success of good players. The truth lies somewhere in between.
I’ve always given credit for Cox keeping the guys level-headed, but have often blamed that “business like” mood of the clubhouse for some of the flat performances in the post-seasons.
It seems that the guys with the fire or guys that wear their emotions on their sleeves (Smoltz, Chipper, Avery, TP, Justice) have been the guys that succeed in the pressure of October. While the business guys like Glavine, Maddux, McGriff rule the regular season, and fail to “step up” in October.
That being said Grissom (a pretty mild mannered dude) and Glavine are pretty much responsible for the one WS title in 1995. So take it for what it’s worth.
By R.Hobbs
July 23, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this
DOB, So true regarding Francoeur’s AB last night. I know hitting MLB pitching is one of the hardest things to do in sports, but the plate discipline is just horrendous. This feels too much like watching Andruw decline the last few years at the plate. It reminds me of a video game pitching sequence — you know the slider down and away is coming for strike one swinging, strike two is usually fast ball looking, and then it’s climb the ladder for strike three or keep throwing the slider in the dirt. Painful to watch.
On the Townes tune…as someone who loves a ton of Townes influenced music and the whole Americana/roots rock genre in general (Earle, Lucinda, Uncle Tupleo, Whiskeytown, etc), what’s a good start in listening to Van Zandt himself?
Thanks as always for the great taste and great writing.
By Brent A(ss) Clown
July 23, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this
I just HAD to get Kobe in the blog today! I LOVE Kobe!
By It's all Scatalogical
July 23, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this
McCann…Choke prone
You can’t eat a ton of fried food and then squat all afternoon without having an occasional “accident”.
By 18 Wheels of Love
July 23, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this
Great stuff DOB!
Some other lyrics come to mind, lyrics from The Drive-By Truckers….
“So I’ll meet you at the bottom if there really is one They always told me when you hit it you’ll know it But I’ve been falling so long it’s like gravity’s gone and I’m just floating.”
I love Bobby Cox and I am sure he is still the players favorite…BUT…I have to question his ability when he continued to bat Andruw in the 5 hole and this year when he continues to bat Frenchy 5 or 6 and not 8th, where he is less likely to come up with the bases loaded.
You can’t make chicken salad out of chicken spit, I understand that, but I also know that the chicken salad goes bad if you leave it uncovered too long.
By timthebrave
July 23, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
Still not a bad trade. Most of those guys were not going to play for the Braves ever…Why are people blaming Bobby Cox for last night? You know he was suspended and not there?…I guess it was still his fault. Give me a break
By THB
July 23, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
Some more thoughts on Manny:
We have money coming off the books this season. Instead of signing Tex for 20+ million for 8 years, we could sign Manny for 1-2 years while we have the money at most likely a little less money. Manny would drive in all the guys we have on base and hit for power and average. Then our goal this offseason is to find a 1B. I have an idea on that, too. The Rangers have been linked to Mike Gonzalez. Maybe Gonzo for Chris Davis and a minor leaguer? Or get a 1B back for Tex if we trade him…
By It's all Scatalogical
July 23, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
Tex may not be clutch, but he can hit a ball farther than anyone else on the team.
By Shaun
July 23, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this
KT, I think Ohman’s point is like the cliche, “you have to take it one game at a time.”
It would do more harm than good for the Braves to try to go out and gain 7 games in the standings in one game, so to speak. I think that’s his point.
By DHD
July 23, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
Maybe correct concerning Furcal. The Braves would make sure he’s OK before signing him. Maybe there are others we could sign. I’m not totally opposed to moving Chipper to first, leading off Blanco and playing Lillibridge at ss and Escobar at third. That way, we could spend money on pitching since we have Smoltz, Tex, Hampton and Glavine’s salary coming off.
Blanco,cf…Escobar, 3b…Chipper,1b….Bay, lf….McCann,c….Francoeur,rf….Johnson,2b….Lillibridge,ss
If Francouer would wake up, that ouldn’t be a bad lineup. With some pitching and reserve additions, we should be good.
By coach k
July 23, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this
SHOCK TIME GET RID OF PENDLETON, SEND FRENCHY TO MISS, SIT KOTSAY AND BRING ME UP 2 KIDS WITH SOME DESIRE TO PLAY WITH BLANCO IN THE OUTFIELD, OH NEED A BACK-UP CATCHER FOR MCCANN NOT THE CLOWN WE GOT.
By It's all Scatalogical
July 23, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this
This team doesn’t pass the smell test.
By bravegator
July 23, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this
timthebrave - It didn’t work out because of injuries, bad luck, whatever but still I liked the move then and I’m glad we got the balls to pull the plug on big time trades
You pull the trigger on big trades
You pull the plug on this season
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this
OK, I’m being a meanie here, but I can’t let this one slip.
From the last blog:
To have made myself clear, I should have said reciting stats is for losers. Certainly stats have a place in evaluatingballplayers. But DOB keeps throwing out all those stats about low ERA and team high (compared to other teams)batting average so how do you explain all those losses?? Would you rather have 10 usless hits that make your batting average look good, or 1 clutch hit that drives in a run????? Jack G
The last time I checked, wins and losses are stats.
Have at it, denizens —
By Threadkiller
July 23, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this
Are we going to make any deals?? Or are we going to wait till 11:55pm on Jul 31? We’ll wait till the midnight hour, make a trade and it will take the new player almost a week to get here..A lot of teams are doing deals, even the Astros made a trade yesterday!
By RG
July 23, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this
I think Cox deserves a lot of blame because most other managers, expecially ones that are supposed to be as good as he is, would move Francoeur out of that spot, and bat him 8th in the line-up instead of giving him all of those wasted RBI opportunities.
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 23, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
DOB -
Are those emails in re: Frenchy’s at bat from friends, colleagues (sportswriters), or “baseball people?”
By Lee in S GA
July 23, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
Don’t see any of the Braves players coming right out and blaming Cox for any of this mess. Most players like playing for Cox. If it comes down to actually a player playing for a winning team for a manager he dislikes vs playing for a manager on a losing team he likes - I would dare say what the majority of baseball players would chose.
By Random
July 23, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
DOB: “I could be covering college football tomorrow. Or metro government. Whatever the AJC higher-ups tell me to cover. Hopefully, they’ll keep me covering ‘ball a long time.”
AJC announces section changes, staffing …
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution will cut its workforce by 8 percent, or about 189 jobs, and eliminate all of its geographically targeted news sections as part of a cost-cutting plan announced Wednesday… . Mellott said the AJC will maintain news bureaus in Gwinnett, Cobb, DeKalb and North Fulton, adding that the daily newspaper’s metro and sports sections will expand to handle coverage from those areas.
The Good News: DOB still has a job.
The Bad News: DOB will now be the Beat Reporter not only for the Atlanta Braves, but also for the Gwinnett Braves, West Georgia Braves, Long Branch Braves, Hightower Chiefs, College Park Warriors, Cross Keys Indians and Creekside Seminoles.
PS: apologies to Chop Chop.
By Shaun
July 23, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this
I don’t think there is a such thing as “choke prone” or “clutch prone.” A player can hit or he can’t. Every situation is a pressure situation when you’re a major league player.
Again, I challenge anyone to find a player with a sample of say 500 plate appearances in the clutch who was significantly better in clutch situations or significantly worse in clutch situations than he was normally.
Given enough plate appearances, a player’s clutch performance is going to be fairly close to his overall performance.
I brought this up when everyone was talking about Francoeur as a great clutch hitter as if he had an innate ability to hit well in the clutch. But where are those people now?
By The Irish Moose
July 23, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this
Sometimes teams have to be realistic. I was confident in this team in April. You know what, it was unrealistic. Glavine, and Smoltz were in their 40s, Kotsay had a bad back, Soriano a bad elbow, and Hampton had a bad everything. It is time to go young. Keep Chipper and Hudson (unless the offer is loaded with great prospects) and let Tex go for the draft picks or better prospects now if we cannot afford him. If we can afford him then sign him. Trade Ohman for youth, say goodbye to Glavine, Smolotz, Soriano and Hampton. Spend wisely on the new money we save from the above contracts. Find out if French and Schaefer are the future. Let them play now. I have a bad feeling about Schaefer. I expected him to tear up AA to show people the HGH was over hyped. Right now it looks like it was all HGH.
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this
f.n. hale: I kid you not, he said “truncated.” He’s quite a literate fella, this Will Ohman….
Any of you ever listen to a comedy CD (or tape, back in the day) in your car, and you’re laughing hysterically, and someone drives by you and looks at you as if you’re certifiable?
Just now I’m driving down the Florida Turnpike toward Dolphin Stadium, laughing uncontrollably at the Patton Oswalt bit about Kentucky Fried Chicken’s failure meal in a sadness bowl, and I got some looks from people. Love it. Dude’s so very funny.
By Jeff R
July 23, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this
It’s goofy to blame Cox for the Braves diminishing fortunes. He’s managing like he always has - expect he doesn’t have higher caliber players to manage. Some part any undertaking - including sports - is being in the right place at the right time. For Cox, this season, the music stopped and he doesn’t have a seat.
The team needs to reposition for 2009 and beyond. A good start is moving Super Tex and Ohman. The market is starting to heat up, and will continue to do so right up to deadline. Super Tex and Ohman are worth more with each passing day.
And I just can’t believe that the Braves’ brass is sitting in their offices believing that this club has a genuine shot at post season. Got to believe they have their eyes set already on 2009.
By Lee in S GA
July 23, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this
THB
I don’t think the majority of fans in Atlanta or Cox could handle “Manny being Manny”. I could …. don’t get me wrong. The only reason he pulled it off in Beantown so easily was due to 2 W.S. championships.
By D.Ellis
July 23, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
I’ll always love the Braves. Support the braves….root for the Braves.
BUT THIS TEAM SUCKS SOMETHING FIERCE.
This ship is sinking. It;s been sinking for 2 and a half years. It will be fun watching Wren restock the farm system and begin another run. Just like the 90’s!
However I find it highly funny that in Sunday’s sports section Cox called the organization buyers and not sellers????
That could be a start of the problem….no recognition of seeing when things stink and changes are needed….alas which obviously translates to Batting Frenchy in the 5 or 6 hole or even playing him everyday to begin with.
Don’t get me wrong. I love the Braves. LIFE LONG FAN…the reload will be fun and the off season moves wil lbe intresting
GO BRAVES!
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this
The real Coach K would NEVER type in all caps. Undignified.
By Milton Jeff
July 23, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this
Frenchy’s AB in the 4th definetly made me vomit all over the place. KJ & Kotsay was frustrating as well..at least they lasted longer. Ahh what to do, what to do?? I think we’ve already established the Braves need to be sellers..lets start working on ‘09. Keep the young arms and Huddy. Like McDowell..Get rid of TP. Any new approach in hitting i think will help the mindset of these players.
By Shaun
July 23, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this
N8, it’s hard to know how much success or failure a manager is responsible for. My guess is not much of either.
But my guess is Cox helps his players succeed a lot more than he causes them to fail, given his reputation and overall track record in every game (not just October).
Regarding McGriff, he hit .303/.385/.532 in the post-season.
Certain types of players just aren’t suited for the post-season. Maddux was never a power pitcher and power pitchers usually are the ones who succeed in the post season. Same with Glavine.
By Steve from OH
July 23, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this
N8, others:
I don’t really think the “moral” question of “is player x worth x amount of dollars?” is really applicable in the modern world of baseball. I will agree with you that no one is “worth” 20 million/year to play baseball (or do anything else, for that matter). However, if you consider that the Braves had a revenue of nearly 200 million dollars last year, it is reasonable to expect players to make a ton of cash, given that the 25 guys on the field are the primary “generators” of the revenue? People don’t pay to see FW make trades or Liberty Media secure marketing deals. They pay to see guys like Tex play ball. So if you think in terms of who should get the extra profits (in this case, a 20 Million salary)-Teixeira or the ownership group, the answer is a no-brainer: Tex, and the rest of the 25-man roster. Of course, some of the revenue pays concession workers’ salaries, front office salaries, etc, but the vast majority is pure profit before you include players’ salaries. So, if you paid everyone the league minimum, where would all of this cash go? Would it not be more justifiable to give it to the guys who brought it in instead of ownership?
DISCLAIMER: I’m not an economist or anything, so if anyone has info that rebukes this argument, I’m all ears.
By N8
July 23, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this
“Why are people blaming Bobby Cox for last night? You know he was suspended and not there?…I guess it was still his fault. Give me a break”
Yeah. Because being relegated to the club-house, watching the game on TV, means that NOBODY is allowed to run into the clubhouse and relay instructions.
Besides. Nothing in last nights game really WAS his fault.
In GENERAL, not instructing Jeffrey to take a few pitches falls on the coaching staff. Correct me if I’m wrong, but if Cox (or TP or Chino) were to give Frenchy the “take” sign, he’d oblige, wouldn’t he?
The fact that TP and Bobby have not only allowed, but encouraged Jeffrey to remain aggressive at the plate, falls on their shoulders a bit, doesn’t it?
I realize that not every player can follow instructions or teachings of the coaches the same as everybody else. That’s the complexity of being a coach. Knowing how to get the message across and get the most of of each individual human being.
But I’ll believe to the end of his slump, that sending Jeff down for only 3 days was WORSE for him (and the organization), than had they not sent him down at all.
Not only did it NOT help him (you can’t tell me that in 3 days he solved his issues - especially with the pending results upon his return), but now he’s pizzed at the organization for sending him down.
NOTHING good came of that incident, IMO.
By VaBravesfan
July 23, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this
Worst at bat by a Brave that I can recall: Early 80’s, Bob Horner after 3 straight walks hits a first pitch one-hopper to the pitcher for a double play.
By rlinaug
July 23, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this
i feel sorry for Francouer, cause he really does seems to be a decent fellow and he’s lost. but he’s been awful. still, i blame the coaches. I mean, they can’t get a bunt down, they don’t hit behind the runners, Francouer is not the only brave guilty of swinging at bad pitches. Keep in mind, AJ didn’t learn a thing in 12 years of playing with Cox. I’m convinced, Cox was simply the beneficiary of a great GM with some money.
Thanks for the Townes Van Zandt song. He’s the best song writer ever, I think. Unfortunately he died a virtual unknown. But we know when Brittney gets a haircut. Strange world.
By Joe
July 23, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this
trade Frenchy for 10 bats and a bag of balls!!!! he will never be as good as he was a couple of years ago. For real I would try to make a package of Frenchy and others for Holliday.
By STRETCH
July 23, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this
We all should have seen it coming when Liberty Media took over. Atleast i saw it. Since 06, its been Chipper, Edgar and BMac or Tex being the constants on offense. I mean these guys were solid when healthy. But after these guys, what? A mediocre offense day in and day out.
Look at the surrounding cast last night and the past couple of seasons. Not good. They have been flirting with getting “NO HIT” for the last couple of weeks, and im pretty much expecting them to get tagged with that 0 0 0 at some point this season.
Some of the blame is on Bobby, but, alot of this is on management for the personnel they brought in! These guys are making waaaaaaaaaay too much money to be performing they way they do. How many times are we going to see the bases loaded and “NO” outs and they keep coming up with nothing?!
Bobby should go, and Tex will be gone, Glavine and Hampton…let those old arms go plus Kotsay(love the guy, but he’s damaged goods) and theres plenty money to throw out there at a LF and a 1st baseman.
Can somebody tell me about how much money would be out there if the above happens for next season? The pitchings going to be fine, just gotta get some offensive minded players in a bad way.
People keep saying they Braves can come back, well the way i see it is…they would have to catch 6 teams to get the Wild Card and 3 teams to get the division. Folks, with that anemic lineup, do you all honestly expect to catch anyone???
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 23, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this
There is a very good, brief breakdown of the MLB free agent compensation process on www.mlbtraderumors.com by Tim Dierkes.
Helps explain (among other things) why Ohman might be considered a Type B free agent and what that means exactly (that we’d get one sandwich draft pick for him).
By knowitall
July 23, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
I agree that Frenchy probably shouldn’t be batting 6th. But on the flip side of that who exactly are you going to bat there? KJ has been almost just as bad as Frenchy lately so whom exactly do you put there?
By GotCurry
July 23, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this
I think most people will agree that Francoeur is a talented player. He just happens to be in the slump of all slumps. What I don’t get is why he continues to hit (or not hit) in the #6 spot. I love Bobby, and I’m not one of those people saying he should retire, but he’s given the guy enough chances. It’s very clear where Francoeur belongs in the lineup, at #8. He is killing this team by coming up in bases loaded situations. He needs to switch places with Kotsay in the lineup.
By TennesseePaul
July 23, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this
[People who complain of Bobby] get sick of seeing Yunel Escobar pop-out on the first pitch after a walk, instead of letting Gregor Blanco try and steal on a catcher who has not thrown anyone out all season.
They get frustrated at the team’s inability to hit in key situations,
I didn’t get to see the game last night, so perhaps I’m missing this “call” by Bobby when he coached his offense into a pop up… But just from that description, the line “team’s inability to hit in key situations” seems to go smoothly with “Escobar pop-out… instead of letting … Blanco try and steal”. Sounds like a failed hit and run tactic. A game plan mostly associated with “small ball” which happens to be a persistent criticism of Cox for his supposed lack of use.
Oh well, damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Well, I guess in this case it’s more like “Damned if you do, damned if he doesn’t.”
But I could have the whole scenario wrong having not seen it go down any way…
By Brett
July 23, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this
While Jeff’s stats are horrific and he obviously is more than struggling; I have only seen 1 person on this whole blog mention that Kelly promptly struck out next after him (swinging at an eyeballer I believe). I guess we could call that “The 2nd At Bat”
Brings me to my next point (would love DOB’s opinion on this): Giving Jeff’s struggles with the bases loaded and VH having just walked the bases loaded; WHERE IS THE TAKE SIGN UNTIL HE GETS A STRIKE?
I don’t care if Bobby is in the clubhouse suspended or not; my old little league coach would know that. Another example of how the “sit back and let the players play” attitude around here (remember this is in place Feb-Oct.) has hurt us again.
I wish we would quit pinning this season on our 24 YEAR OLD RF who is clearly in a funk he has never dealt with before. His struggle with runners on are HUGE I agree; but he is not the reason we have lost every game.
I am going to lose it if I hear someone else call him a whiner for sticking up for THE WAY THE SITUATION was handled. Imagine going to work and doing a good job EVERYDAY for 2 1/2 years, then struggling, then having your Mngt. tell you in under 5 minutes you’re demoted,bye-Bye.
No warning after so much and too quick of a meeting would have made a lot of people defensive too. To get called back so fast makes you wonder if they ever knew what they were doing anyways.
Time for people to start thinking about all these things we discuss. It is a team game and besides injuries our season can be summed up in one phrase (to unfortunately take from the booth): IF IT’S NOT COMING FROM CHIPPER, McCANN, or TEX; WE’RE NOT GETTING IT AT THE PLATE!
By Ron Roberts
July 23, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this
I think those that pay any attention to my posts here over the years could tell you I’m no Bobby Cox apologist, and that I’ll criticize the guy when it’s due, but you can’t put this team’s 2008 performance on him. There’s not a manager out there who’d get much better, if any better, out of this squad, having to overcome losing an ace starter, a number two/three starter, not having your closer, and your starting “hits-for-high-average” LF for most or all of the season.
Folks, imagine where the Red Sox would be without Beckett and Wakefield all/most of the year, along with J.D Drew and Jonathan Papelbon, and throw in, for good measure, a slumping Manny Ramirez to sorta balance it out. Heck, how about a couple of extended DL stints for Mike Lowell and Big Papi (okay, they already have that, but add the others)… they’d be struggling, mightily.
You put those conditions on any current playoff contender and you’d have a team struggling to reach .500, wouldn’t you? No matter who was managing.
Yeah, sure, there are decisions he’s made writing out lineups or in-game that have had us all scratching our heads; but our starting catcher has to have the occasional day off (especially day games after night games) or he’s worthless in September. And his methods won us 14 consecutive division crowns, a few NL pennants and a World Series. Baseball hasn’t evolved so much that the game’s beyond his mind.
The injuries and the mighty struggle of yet another outfielder we were counting heavily on have taken their toll on this squad. Face it, and cut the ol’ man a break.
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
But my guess is Cox helps his players succeed a lot more than he causes them to fail
How true Shaun.
AJ hit .222 last year with 26 HR and 94 RBI.
This year: .163, 2, 11.
Clearly players play better for Cox. Wink.
By Brooklyn Brawler
July 23, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
I love Bobby Cox but, I do agree that his time is up. Ned, Pat Corrales or Fredi are probably the best replacements for Bobby. As much as I like Terry as a person, he needs to go as hitting coach. Bring Boggs, Joyner, or Magadan in as a hitting coach.
I would not mind seeing Chipper at first next year. He’s onlygot a couple of years left and i cringe everytime he plays third despite his great fielding prowess. He just can’t run. Play Chipper at first, Esco at 3b, Omar or Brent at SS, an Prado everydday at 2B because Kelly johnson sux, period. Get a power hitting LF and trade matt Diaz. Play Gregor in CF and Schafer and French fight it out in RF.
By timthebrave
July 23, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
I’m not ready to pull ANY plugs on the season. If there are any trades that are out their that make this a better team than go for it. Don’t just give up Tex for 2 minor leaguers that will never be better than back ups. I’d rather we just play the season out and see what happens. I guess I don’t have the loser mentality. I WILL still go to Braves games. Turner Field is still FUN…Gotta get their early for the pregame tail gating in the Blue Lot and watch batting practice. This is the team I love…win, lose, lose, lose, or draw. F it…I still believe. Go Braves!
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
Uh, STRETCH,
Liberty has actually shown a willingness to spend a little money, unlike TW, which nickel-and-dimed the club to death. When payrolls across baseball were escalating, and the Braves had made large, multi-year commitments to several players, TW tightened the purse strings.
Now, spending more is no guarantee of success. You have to spend well. But at least Liberty seems willing to provide some flexibility during the season, which TW wouldn’t do.
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
I agree that Frenchy probably shouldn’t be batting 6th. But on the flip side of that who exactly are you going to bat there? KJ has been almost just as bad as Frenchy lately so whom exactly do you put there?
Prado.
By Kashi
July 23, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this
It is the line up that I hate most about our Braves team. Why are we penciling Frency in 6th spot? Oh god I am sick of it. I would put Kotsay in 6th and if I really don’t want to hear Frenchy winning then I would put him in 7th. Other wise I would have him in 8th spot. We are in business and its mean WINNING a game. STOP being loyal to players. Braves pay them to play and we pay them to watch their game. Do everyone agree with me batting Kotsay in 6th after McCain and keeping Frenchy in 7th or 8th spot? Last night Mr. Automatic Out spoiled everything that was going in our favor.
By Mike
July 23, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this
Great post N8
By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2009)
July 23, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this
Since I missed the first half of last nights game I decided to watch through the fourth inning bases loaded debacle where the Braves left them loaded and didn’t score.
Watching Francoeur bat, it’s painfully obvious to me what is wrong. VandenHurk threw him five fastballs and frenchy was late on all five pitches. Even the one he fouled off. Never mind the fact that most weren’t even strikes.
Why? Because he isn’t picking the ball up out of the pitchers hand. Why? because he can’t see it. Thats right, Francouer can’t see the damn ball.
Mark Bowman clued me in when he used the term: degenerative eye condition to describe what has happened to Francoeur since he was beaned in the face back in 2004.
Think about it folks, Francoeur has gone from a 100 RBI 25 HR Gold Glove Iron man to this, an over matched, underachieving player who has no business being in the major leagues, much less in the lineup everyday. His eye sight has betrayed him and unless it can be corrected, I fear his career may be over.
By dino
July 23, 2008 4:25 PM | Link to this
to sum up the braves and there evaluation of talent CORKY MILLER IS A PRO BASEBALL PLAYER
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 4:25 PM | Link to this
Uh, STRETCH,
Liberty has actually shown a willingness to spend a little money, unlike TW, which nickel-and-dimed the club to death. When payrolls across baseball were escalating, and the Braves had made large, multi-year commitments to several players, TW tightened the purse strings.
Now, spending more is no guarantee of success. You have to spend well. But at least Liberty seems willing to provide some flexibility during the season, which TW wouldn’t do.
By Chop Chop
July 23, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
Hell of a post at 3:12, brent a.
Random, I accept apologies even if there’s nothing to apologize for. I’m cool like that.
By bravos2249
July 23, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
N8
I’m no expert on the Braves payroll but yesterday I spent a amount of time going through the players who I thought would be here next year and pay raises based on what the next higher up made..
EX: guys making 400 G…usually make 410 or 412 G the next year. AGAIN it’s not accurate…and I based it on Gonzo getting 4 million…I took Glavine & Hampton’s money out…and I based it on Ohman,Kotsay, and Diaz not being here…why Diaz because he’s making 1.225 million and is arbitration eligible for the next 2-3 yrs, and 1.5-3 million is too much for a 4th outfielder/backup IMO
Anyway though not completely accurate, my estimate is that even without signing Tex the Braves can not have the 95 million payroll next year.
It would take about 8.116 million to give players not already signed for next year a raise.
Hudson(13), Chipper(10-11 or higher), Mac(3.5) and Soriano(6.1)…will take up 32.6 (based on Chipper making 10 million)
Based on what I did the Braves will have from 28.728 w/ Smoltz and 44.728 w/o Smoltz
If Smoltz or Glavine play w/ 8 million contract the payroll would HAVE to be increased anyway…so it’s not seizable to think it couldn’t raise to 115-118 or more.
If neither play then the payroll could be as low as 98.4-98.9
the payroll numbers are with a 20 million player…but a jump from 12.5 to 20 million is high…so I think wherever he plays his first 2 yrs would be from 17-19.
By geauxbraves2000
July 23, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
Of all the FAs that left the Braves, I think the one that hurt the most was Furcal.
Then again if they’d signed Furcal, they probably wouldn’t have traded for Renteria, and wouldn’t now have JJJ. Furcal leaving still hurt, IMO.
I wouldn’t mind having Furcal back if he’s healthy. Him and E could be a nice 1-2 punch up the middle.
Okay, win tonight and it’s a series win, win every series the rest of the year and you never know what could happen, but let’s start with this one.
Geaux Braves!!
By N8
July 23, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
Shaun
I agree with you about Bobby. That doesn’t mean as a fan, I’m not open to the idea of having a different “leader” to see where it goes. I’ve always stated that the old saying of “be careful what you wish for” might very much apply to my desire for a change in the manager.
I’m man enough after the fact to say that I was wrong if it turns out I am when Cox leaves if failure follows. But haven’t the past 3 seasons been failures anyhow?
I’m not demanding Cox be fired. He deserves better than that. I’m not claiming that if he is re-signed after next year, that I’m DONE being a Braves fan. I’m not gonna go all “Robert” and throw a party when he’s done. I’m just ready for a change. It’s that simple.
As for McGriff. Similar to Tex. While his post-season “numbers” aren’t that bad, I don’t really remember any BIG hits by the Crime Dog. I remember a LONG HR against Philly (in a loss) in 93.
I do, however, remember big hits from Lemke, Lonnie, Justice, Devereaux, Polonia, and even a big Sac-Fly from Jerry Willard.
That doesn’t mean Fred didn’t come up big. I just don’t remember any moments where he carried us in the post-season like he did in the second half of 93.
Steve from OH
I don’t disagree with anything you stated. My main point when I say “worth” is relative to each team’s budget and how the rest of the roster IS currently constructed. In fact, more importantly is how the rest of the 25 man roster CAN be constructed after giving out top dollar for one guy.
History shows that other than the 2002 Angels (with Vlad), since 1985 NOBODY has won the WS with any one player taking up 16 percent of the payroll. Whatever that said payroll total is.
Tex might be “worth” 35 million for the Yankees (with their seemingly unlimited payroll), just so the Orioles or Red Sox DON’T sign him. Where the Braves might be overspending on him at 18 million if their payroll isn’t gonna go too far above what it currently is (around 105 million).
That was my point of “worth”.
I’m with you. In reality, none of the athletes, entertainers are “worth” any of the dollars they are getting paid. But in the real world of supply and demand, ones worth comes down to what somebody is willing to pay. IE: Supply and Demand. Period.
So if Tex gets 30 million per year, apparently the team that gives him that much money, feels he’s worth it.
By Tomahawk Matt
July 23, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
I’m moving to Montreal to support a real baseball team.
I kidd because I love. Really go Braves!!!
Here’s 10 things that everyone should look forward to when the Braves throw in the towel to rebuild for the future… 1 - far fewer A-holes at the home games (not including games vs. Mets or Cubs) 2 - better chance of getting foul balls 3 - better chance Skip will mention my name and hometown after I catch a foul ball 4 - shorter line for chili jalepeno onion relish superdogs 5 - shorter line for stalls after the chili jalepeno onion relish superdogs 5 - more empty seats to sneak into after buying $4 Upper Reserve seats 6 - better chance of hearing Bobby swear in the dugout 7 - shorter funnel cake line (and why is there only ONE FUNNEL CAKE stand? It took half a game to get my funnel fix with a cold brew last week!) 8 - better chance I’ll be able to heckle someone and they actually hear me 9 - better chance I’ll be able to park my old Pacer in the Lexus parking lot 10 - smaller chance that someone will be killed when the Tomahawk Chopping Cow falls from the Upper Deck
By ncscoots
July 23, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
you should expect to win and be angry when you dont. Watching movies in the club house after getting one hit is unacceptable. They should have been taking mandatory batting practice.
That’s an awful lot of “angry”, since 50+ games are L’s as soon as Opening Day. You put that much energy into being mad, you don’t leave much for actually playing the game.
What should they have done in the clubhouse? Rend their garments? Adorn themselves with sackcloth and ashes? Destroy every locker and water cooler in sight? Go on a murderous rampage?
Fans can do all of those, if they wish (OK, maybe not the last one), because they don’t have to play another game the next day, and the day after, and the day after. Fans need only pick up the remote, get swallowed by the La-Z-Boy, and b!tch some more about “heart”. Not exactly a taxing exercise, physically OR mentally.
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 23, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this
Brett -
The point isn’t that Frenchy struck out, it is that he struck out on four pitches immediately following three straight walks. Should he not have taken a pitch or two to see if the guy’s control had recovered? If he had, he would have had a 3-1 count. As it were, he struck out swinging at 3 balls well high and out of the strike zone. By all accounts a horrible at bat and he did not look like a ML ballplayer for those couple minutes. Goto ESPN’s Gameday from last night’s game and look at where the pitches were located, if you’d like.
By R.Hobbs
July 23, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this
Hey RedEyedAndBlue, you going to catch Wilco at any of the southeastern shows in the next couple of weeks? I’ll be at Jax and Charleston. I’m assuming you’re a fan.
Also, informative link on the free agent compensation.
By timthebrave
July 23, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this
N8 just like andruw’s bad hitting is all bobby cox’s fault. It’s obvious he has torn the cover off the ball since going to LA. Oh wait….Joe Torre sucks as a manager. So it’s really bobby cox and joe torre’s fault. What a bunch of losers!!!….I mean a bunch of hall of famers….W8(wait)…I really don’t know what I mean….I just need someone to blame and I love b*** and moaning. It couldn’t possibly be the players fault the Braves aren’t winning??? Way to obvious and leaves you too many people to blame. It couldn’t be Francouer’s fault that he can’t lay off a high fastball or a slider in the dirt…NO WAY….couldn’t possibly be that. Don’t bother replying because it will be just more whining and b***….If you want to reply you should say something like “I would prefer them get XYZ as a manager because of ABC”. That might require thought….Nevermind…just b*** and moan it makes me laugh. N8-What are you a Mets fan or something? You sure sound like one
By McFann :Ô:
July 23, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this
Yesterday (or was it the day before?), 18 Wheels of Love posted the refrain to The Gambler by Kenny Rogers, as a song that fit the Braves (and it does). Well, he’s another part of the song that would work:
If yer gonna play the game, boy
You gotta learn to play it right!
(Refrain)
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 23, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this
Bat Infante or Escobar sixth. Whoever isn’t sixth should bat second. Prado should be considered for batting second when he’s in the lineup. At Richmond Blanco and Prado batted 1-2 with remarkable results.
By timthebrave
July 23, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this
geauxbraves2000, Not Furcal because he has been injured too much but I agree we really miss a good lead off man. That would do so much to help win some of these one run losses.
By 18 Wheels of Love
July 23, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this
I love Wilco but I wish they would all go back to drinking beer and writing rock songs instead of songs that seem more influenced by pain pills.
By Train Wreck Bystander
July 23, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this
It is amazing how Frenchy lets those high fast ones hyp-mo-tize him. But I was saying last night that at least he didn’t ground into a DP with a force at home. So I guess I just see the glass half-full.
Frenchy needs to be in the 5-spot - in AA for the rest of the year. Let’s rent a bat, since it seems we can set the table time and time again and not clear the dishes.
Admit it - with a hot bat somewhere in the 5-8 spots, you’d like our chances.
By timthebrave
July 23, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this
Tomahawk Matt, I really like #10…If you start the cutting down of the cow I promise to do a little chopping so that the cow accidently falls on a Mets fan…ha ha jk
By westy12
July 23, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this
I can’t think of a worse at-bat than Frenchy’s last night, considering the circumstances: bases loaded, no outs, 3 straight walks.
That may have been the only time in baseball history where any given Little League player would’ve had a better approach, and given a Major League team a better opportunity for success (via walk). And if Frenchy’s not smart enough to realize you take a couple pitches in that situation, then what the hell was the take signal invented for?
I know Frenchy thinks he’s above it all, but this is beyond embarrassing. Cox and Wren need to grow a pair, stop the inmates from running the asylum, and send Frenchy back to the minors where he belongs. And in the name of everything holy, let’s find a minor league hitting instructor who has better advice for him than to “be more aggressive”!
By glove51
July 23, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this
DOB: in the same vein as TVZ, have you listened to Ryan Bingham’s record? it’s called Mescalito, and it is good stuff. I believ you would really enjoy - a little TVZ, Guy Clark, mixed in with some Dylan and maybe some Tom Waits for good measure.
Also, how about Elvis Costello’s Momofuku? Really solid IMO. Elvis just keeps on doing what he wants to do and generally they are very good to great records.
By dino
July 23, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this
if the golden boy is in tonights lineup then u know the coaches said nothing to him about his performance last night
By monty
July 23, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this
I don’t kow why they sent Lillibridge down instead of Gotay,the young fellow was starting to round into shape. I’d feel more confident with him trying to play right field and send JF down!
By Realist
July 23, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this
DOB - We all know Frenchy is a disaster, but what is the franchise going to do up the middle next season? Escobar and Johnson are both proving to be average at best, and if Kotsay walks, you have a big hole in CF. Can’t be a contender with two average (or below average) players up the middle and a .265 guy like Blanco in CF. Just doesn’t happen.
Any chance they move Kelly back to LF, where his defense wasn’t as much of a liability, and try to bring a better hitter in to replace him or Escobar. There’s a lovefest here in Atlanta for Escobar that I don’t really buy in to… the guy is going to finish the season around .270 with virtually no power to speak of. He needs to play like Ozzie Smith in the field to justify that kind of offense.
By TennesseePaul
July 23, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this
I brought this up when everyone was talking about Francoeur as a great clutch hitter as if he had an innate ability to hit well in the clutch. But where are those people now?
They’re still here Payne. It’s just that, if a player has an innate ability to hit, does a slump mean there is no such thing as an innate ability to hit? I believe it was you who stressed during AJ’s rut that a player is neither as bad as his worst slump nor as good as his best hot streak. But now apparently a player in his worst slump is proof that a specific skill simply doesn’t exist. I suppose the search for truth continues…
Is there such a thing as clutch hitting? Bill James, senior baseball operations adviser for the Boston Red Sox, now thinks maybe there is. Here is his provocative article “Mr. Clutch,” as it appears in The Hardball Times Baseball Annual 2008.
—SI
…Back in the early days of sabermetrics, when dinosaurs roamed the American League Western Division, we made a very fundamental mistake. A friend of mine wrote an article asserting, essentially, that clutch hitters don’t exist.…
—Bill James
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 23, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this
Yeah, good pick-up Hobbs. Hope you’ve seen ‘em before. If not, you’re in for a treat. I’m hoping to see them in Cary, NC. Saw them last Oct. at the Charlottesville Pavillion and they were the tightest i’ve ever seen them. Seen them many times but this was the first show i’d seen since YHF where they really, really gelled and you felt like you were observing greatness. At the time, they were touring for Sky Blue Sky and I intentionally went to the Charlottesville show hoping they would sell the record to me (I hadn’t heard it yet). I went home and bought four copies. Gave three away.
By Mike
July 23, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this
RedEyedAndBlue-
I agree, looked absolutely terrible. He should have FOR SURE worked the count but obviously you didn’t see where I mentioned the “take sign” should have been in place (at least until he got a strike, maybe 2). It is a coaches job to pick up on his/other teams players strengths and weaknesses. We knew what was about to happen from home; they should know from the dugout.
By Steve from OH
July 23, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
N8:
Good points. I agree that Tex isn’t worth that great of a proportion of our payroll, but I don’t think he will get anywhere near 30-35 million/year from anyone. If he does, I’ll take the draft picks with a smile on my face. In any case, with a lot of money coming off the books next season, I’d say we have a decent shot to keep him, and I’d do it for 19-21 million/year. We need that bat in our lineup, plain and simple. There aren’t any good FA’s to sign or capable minor leaguers to call up. If his price is 25-30 million, then no way, obviously.
Bravos2249, you kind of lost me with your payroll assessment thing. Are you saying that with no Tex the Braves will be below 95 million next year, or are you saying that we can’t keep payroll below 95 million even w/o Tex? Not questioning your methods (I’m not really up on the arb rules, super two rules, etc.) but I was just confused. Could you re-state some of your conclusions for dummies like me?
By It's all Scatalogical
July 23, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the poop on Stenchy!
By Coulrophobic
July 23, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this
This isn’t funny-like-a-clown funny
Not good. Clowns aren’t funny! I hate clowns! Can’t sleep, clowns will eat me! Braves have been playing like clowns, ergo, Braves = clowns!
By TennesseePaul
July 23, 2008 4:53 PM | Link to this
ncscoots: Not exactly a taxing exercise, physically OR mentally.
Come now scoots. I’ve seen some of the results from that exercise and quite a few of them looked as though it was quite taxing to execute.
By N8
July 23, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this
timthebrave
“Don’t bother replying because it will be just more whining and b….If you want to reply you should say something like “I would prefer them get XYZ as a manager because of ABC”. That might require thought….Nevermind…just b and moan it makes me laugh. N8-What are you a Mets fan or something? You sure sound like one”
First of all, maybe your moniker should be timdoesn’treadverywell. Because I don’t blame Bobby for Andruw. I blame JS. Anybody watching (and paying attention to where our payroll was going), could have determined by approach that he was in (and still is) in decline.
Dude should have been moved before he was a 10/5 guy. And before you accuse me of using hindsight, I was saying so leading up to the date he became a 10/5 guy.
Yeah. I’m a Mets fan. Now I know you don’t read.
Why do I have to have another manager in mind to replace Bobby?
You wanna take any wagers on who “turns it around” quicker with their respective teams, Bobby or Torre?
The Dodgers have a better core of players (and a higher budget) than the Braves do.
If you would have read the post, you would have seen that I don’t blame Cox for EVERYTHING wrong with this team. That being said, I have NEVER given him all the credit (and find it silly when people do) for the success of the 90’s.
3 HOF pitchers in the rotation (or staff when Smoltz was in the pen), 1 HOF for over a decade at 3B and PLENTY of All-stars (who were good players for other teams BEFORE playing for Cox), that filled the 25 man roster for that decade. Add in the fact that the scouting and development department throughout the entire organization was the cream of the crop in the 90’s.
Argue with me if you must. But I’m not Robert. I don’t hate Cox, and don’t wish the Braves to fire him. I don’t have a replacement in mind. Maybe TP? Preferably not. Then again, who saw Roger McDowell as Leo’s replacement before his name surfaced? Not me.
By It's all Scatalogical
July 23, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this
Mark Bowman clued me in when he used the term: degenerative eye condition to describe what has happened to Francoeur since he was beaned in the face back in 2004.
It’s obvious what beans will make you do.
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this
Brooklyn Bawler
I like your thinking. But, more needs to happen than that. Prado will be great as an every day 2nd baseman. Plus he’s a right handed batter, so that will help level out the balance of L/R in the lineup.
Keep Escobar at short. He’s a stud. Not 3rd.
Chipper at 1st? Not a bad thought. I’d be for it. You could move Prado to 3rd and keep KJ at 2nd, but expect a lot of errors by Prado initially. But wherever Chipper plays, you’ll need a stead backup.
Outfield. With KJ and Prado in the infield, you’ll need a lot of power in the OF. Need a trade, plain and simple. I like Diaz, but don’t think he’s the answer unless you have a Holiday/Many Ramirez type guy mirroring him in the outfield since Frenchy’s not the answer. If that’s the case, then I like having a speedy left-handed CF. For what it’s worth, I still like Anderson over Blanco. He’s faster, can steal more, probably has a better arm, and i’m still not impressed with Blanco’s bat. If 2 players are equal like I view Blanco and Anderson, I’d rather have the faster one patrolling CF and leading off.
The braves needs to trade for a 1B, 3B, and/or an outfielder. 1B can be compensated with Chipper moving there. But even if KJ makes the switch to the outfield, you’re missing a power bat. KJ would be a good stop gap. You’d allow him 2 more years to develop and prove his value until Gorkys/Heyward/Schaffer etc….were ready.
In the words of Jim Cramer: Sell, sell, sell. Too many pieces are missing. Start with your good bats (McCann, Chipper, Escobar, and yes IMO Prado) and build from there. There’s a lot more good free agent pitchers available than position players this year, so finding a SP won’t be that hard (Hudson, Jair, JoJo, Camp, and a guy like Lowe for next year won’t be too bad especially if Smoltz is able to return and the braves offer a minor league deal to Hampton as well).
By Gosh, By Golly and By Jove
July 23, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this
I brought this up when everyone was talking about Francoeur as a great clutch hitter as if he had an innate ability to hit well in the clutch. But where are those people now?
Shaun, after reminding us once again of your superlative foresight and stat gathering, you asked the wrong question. It should not be where those people are now. Try this:
Question: Where is Francoeur now?
Answer: In the wrong place. Should be in Mississippi or Richmond.
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 23, 2008 4:59 PM | Link to this
18 Wheels -
I’ll await your definition of a “rock song.” I presume you mean something like My Morning Jacket’s “Honest Man” or “Highly Suspicious.” Or maybe something you saw on Austin City Limits last Sunday night. Or maybe the entire Led Zeppelin catalog. I doubt you mean Buddy Holly or the King of Rock and Roll, Elvis. Or heaven for bid Elvis Costello or the Pixies.
I mean they were all taking pills and shoulda been drinking beer.
By lewie
July 23, 2008 5:00 PM | Link to this
wilco is solid…get to see them in a little bit, but agree that the songs have lost any edge that they had before 18wol
JF batting 6th is retarded…helmet wearing retard playing in traffic retarded
time to punt….it has been for a while, but the season is just long enough to make most teams believe that they still have a shot
we don’t…this season is in the sh!tter
By R.Hobbs
July 23, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this
This will be show number five for me RedEyedAndBlue, also seen Tweedy solo twice. The last two shows (with the current ensemble) have been really good. Chastain in the driving rain was nice last summer, especially with the “Maybe the sun will shine…” opening line for the night.
Totally agree with the sixth spot in the order. As someone pointed out on here yesterday, it’s no coincidence that JF has the most bases loaded AB’s on the team…he’s coming up after Chipper, Tex, and McCann — the only consistent OPS guys we have!
By Braves_Rick
July 23, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this
Just a thought about Francouer’s awful at-bat last night… I remember Andruw last season in Boston striking out… was it 4 times? At least 3. Anyway, that last at-bat that day was sheer torture to watch. Even the Red Sox fans seemed to groan (in empathy).
By ncscoots
July 23, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this
f.n. hale: I kid you not, he said “truncated.” He’s quite a literate fella, this Will Ohman
What the hey, if Kipling can raise his weary head during a golfer’s interview (re Harrington the other day), Ohman is certainly due a “truncated” or the like, LOL.
After all, he could have edified us with the elegance of something such as “Stick a fork in us”, instead. Not a blog reader, I guess.
By N8
July 23, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH
“….but I don’t think he will get anywhere near 30-35 million/year from anyone”
Totally agree, and don’t expect it to get that ridiculous. Was just saying that the teams with open checkbooks for their GM’s COULD go that high if they chose.
After all, the Red Sox paid 50 million just for the right to negotiate with Dice-K.
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this
Maybe Frenchy’s so mad at the braves he K’d yesterday on purpose? The K looked that bad.
Well I guess not. He’s too money hungry for that.
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 23, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this
That’s a good point, Mike, if indeed Cox gives his veterans the “take sign.” I admit to not knowing but he does allow them to wail away at 3-0 (much to my aggravation) on many an occasion.
Of course some would say that Frenchy’s eyesight is so poor so as not to be able to see the third base coach give the take sign. Excuses, excuses. We all agree - the at bat was completely awful. We’ve had many a moment this season when I thought the season was kaput. But that strikeout, right then, was when I finally knew it was over.
By Sparky Anderson
July 23, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this
Lineup for tonight: 1) KJ 2b 2) Prado ss 3) Norton 1b 4) Frenchy rf 5) corky c 6) kotsay cf 7) Blanco lf 8) Gotay 3b 9) Hudson
By Bryan from Kansas ( Go KU )
July 23, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this
David,
On Baseball Beat on XM this morning, Mark Bowman said the Braves would be open to trading Jeff Francoeur to help him get a fresh start. Have you heard anything like that?
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this
I’ve read like 20 posts saying Frenchy should be in Mississippi.
No he shouldn’t. He should be in Richmond, as far away from Wellman as possible or he’ll never change his approach.
By Jeff321
July 23, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this
I have been a Braves fan since 1981 and watching a losing team certainly won’t be a shock for me. With that said, I would much rather see A/AA/AAA guys losing than so-called professionals! So, what’s the harm? Try and trade everyone besides Chipper, Jair, McCann, Escobar, Gonzalez, Campillo, Morton. I mean, the time to restock was years ago. Are ya that worried about season ticket holders revolting? Tell me, how do they like watching this crap?
By bravos2249
July 23, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this
Steve from OH
The Braves payroll w/o Tex can’t be 95 million unless both Smoltz and Glavine don’t play.
But even then the Braves wouldn’t have that much money to spend on FA.
So basically I meant to say that payroll is going to have to go up so it’s not as if Tex staying or going dampers the payroll.
By 18 Wheels of Love
July 23, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this
redeyedandblue,
No offense, but I prefer the beer drinking-days Wilco sound (Summerteeth and earlier) to the prescription pill popping influenced-lyrics and sound of the last few albums. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a fan regardless, I just like the raw stuff compared to Sky Blue Sky.
By Craig
July 23, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this
Reality check for those who think the Braves can pull a comeback like 1993. In ‘93 they played 54-19 ball (.740) after the All-Star break, the third-best second half in major league HISTORY and overcame a 10-game deficit as of July 22. The surge coincided with the July acquisition of Fred McGriff, with the Braves going 51-17 (.750) after McGriff joined the lineup. That is CRAZY! But, even though the Braves were 10 games back before they got McGriff, they still were 53-41 (.563) before they got him. Which means, they weren’t a bad team, they just needed a boost. So old Schuerholz was probably saying to himself…”Yeah, we’re 10 games back, but we are still playing pretty dang good baseball…if we could just replace old worn out cripple Sid Bream with the Crime Dog…we just might can make a run.” But what’s Wren thinking? “Should I trade Tex, or keep him?” He’s not thinking of improving the Braves at all…its either keep things the same, or trade Tex and make it worse. I know the Braves are better than this, but they would almost have to win 70% of their games from here on out to win the division barring a huge meltdown. And in ‘93 they were in 2nd place. Only one team to catch…the Giants. All they had to do in ‘93 was win 11 more games than the Giants in the 2nd half. Say the Braves go on a tear and win 20 of their next 30 games, and say the Mets went 14-18. The Braves would gain 6 games on the Mets and would only be 1 game out, but what if the Phillies during that same stretch went 18-12 and the Marlins went 17-13. They’d still be 5 games back of the Phils, and 3 games back of the Marlins, and still 1 game back of the Mets. Still in 4th place. The problem isn’t just that they are 7 out. They are 6+ out by 3 teams. If Smoltz wasn’t hurt, and if Frenchy wasn’t terrible I’d give them a chance. But, they are…and I just can’t see THESE Braves getting it done without them. Here’s my prediction…and mark it down. The Braves final record will be 81-81 3rd Place, 4 games out of 1st. That’s if they keep Tex. Can you IMAGINE the Braves offense without him? Pitch around Chip and McCann and you shut them down. This team needs a makeover. They need a totally new outfield. I’d trade Kelly Johnson & start Prado too. If you think there’s a chance to re-sign Tex to a fairly reasonable deal, keep him. In my opinion, the problem with the Braves is they keep bringing up and signing the same type of player. Decent hitter, so-so power, decent defense, no speed. Kotsay, K Johnson, Frenchy, Escobar, Diaz. All of them when they are going right may hit you .270-.285, 10-15HR except Frenchy may hit 20, and the 5 of them may combine for 20 stolen bases. They are just mediocre. They aren’t bad…except Frenchy this year…but they just aren’t that good either. They’re just average. That’s why the Braves have been right around .500 the last couple of years. I want some guys like this, and their projected stats this year:
Matt Holliday .340 27HR 93RBI 20SB Hanley Ramirez .301 37HR 82RBI 37SB Ian Kinsler .324 22HR 94RBI 39SB Jose Reyes .297 16HR 74RBI 52SB Ryan Theriot .328 7HR 45RBI 24SB Grady Siezmore .276 38HR 88RBI 37SB Matt Kemp .287 18HR 88RBI 35SB
These are the kind of guys that can beat you in a lot of ways. These guys MAKE things happen. They don’t just sit around and wait for something to happen. 5 of the 7 guys are in the Top 20 in baseball in Runs Scored. That’s what the Braves need: Difference makers. I’m not a Brave hater, but this is just a BORING team to watch this year. They aren’t the Rockies of old, where they weren’t that great, but it was fun to see Larry Walker, Gallaraga, Bichette, and Vinny bomb some. They aren’t the Cardinals of the 80’s when they had Vince Coleman, Ozzie Smith, Lonnie Smith, and Willie McGee to steal 60-100 bases a year. They aren’t the ‘96-‘00 Yankees when you’d see them dominate just about everyone, and become postseason kings. They aren’t even the ‘93-‘99 Braves where you could see maybe the best rotation ever. I like to watch Chipper, McCann & Tex bat…and that’s about it.
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 23, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this
Yeah, I’m convinced Chastain is a great venue no matter the act. Even Lakewood is much improved from the time I was in college in ATL in the mid-90s. I want to check out the new amphitheater in Atlanta the next time I’m down.
There’s definitely more crowd involvement from Tweedy and Co. in the last couple years. He’s a much less angry man than in the past. At the last show he invited a 8 y.o. on stage to dance with him. Would never, ever have seen that during the AM-Summerteeth years.
By brent a.
July 23, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this
Bryan from KU
Good topic.
After Frenchy’s comments in July, combined with the pressure of being the hometown hero, and at this point, struggling mightily with that pressure, I keep expecting that Francoeur will get traded this off-season.
Perhaps someplace far, far away from Atlanta (Seattle, maybe?), where he can truly get a fresh start.
There is talent there, we’ve seen it, and it hasn’t just disappeared.
Personally, I would be happy for Jeff if he landed elsewhere and flourished. I’d be disappointed that it didn’t work out for him here in Atlanta, but certainly happy to see him achieve the success of which he is capable.
Because he is talented, I also think the right team would give us something reasonable in return for him. Clearly, this season has hurt his trade value; but, a good negotiator may be able to convince a team that he just needs a fresh start.
Come this off-season, someone will need an outfielder, and will no doubt call the Braves to inquire about Francoeur.
Of course, the Braves will also be needing outfielders themselves, this off-season, so it will be interesting to see if they are ready to cut ties with Jeff.
By SCJ102
July 23, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB next time you see Tex, ask him why he’s such a robot.
I swear I’ve never seen anyone care less about their team. He’s probably thinking ‘Atlanta.. who?’
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 5:22 PM | Link to this
monty,
I don’t get the Lillibridge demotion either. I mean Gotay ain’t exactly been ripping the cover off the ball. And the Small Bridge has played some very fine D and shown some progress at the plate.
I suppose the idea is to get him more work at Richmond, not retard his development, etc., but again, it’s almost August, it’s a pennant race, and who would you rather have on the roster: Lilly or Gotay?
By PopeVanIII
July 23, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this
DOB
Any sense of how active the Braves will be on the FA market this offseason. It seems to me that they’ll have some money to spend.
Contracts coming off the books (probably) include Smoltz’s, Glavine’s, Hampton’s, Ohman’s, and Teixeira’s.
According to my calculations (accounting for arbitration raises to guys like KJ, Diaz, Gonzalez, and Francoeur, and contractual raises to McCann and Soriano), they could give Teixeira $20 million per season and still be $20 million under their 2008 payroll.
They could add Adam Dunn and Ben Sheets, for example (while keeping Teixeira), and not increase the payroll by more than $10 million.
Now, I realize that would be tying up a lot of money in a few guys, but it seems like the time is right to try to make a FA splash or two (or three). Have you heard anything? Any word on whether payroll is expected to remain constant or perhaps (I’m hoping against hope here) even increase?
Thanks in advance.
By TNJeff
July 23, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this
DOB
Good stats on Chipper vs tonight opposing pitcher. What are the chances that Cox sits him tonight to rest him?
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 23, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this
Yeah 18 Wheels. Being There was one of those records that changed the way that I heard music. Trust me, I hear ya. Summerteeth was an amazing follow-up, perhaps even a better record. Tweedy was a very messed-up, stressed-out dude then, though (as evidenced in the documentary about the band’s break-up). Post YHF records like Sky Blue Sky, et. als. are more mellow in many respects b/c Tweedy is mellower. Well that and b/c he has a new band.
But had I not heard Being There, Summerteeth or Uncle Tupelo records, I never woulda listened to Built to Spill, Death Cab, My Morning Jacket, or even Townes Van Zandt, Waylon Jennings, etc. So I hear ya. I hear ya.
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 23, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this
BravesFanInRockies -
Good news (if there is any) is that you are likely to see more of Lilli and the youngsters if we sell than if we don’t. I suspect they’ll give Lil’bridge and some other minor leaguers a few more chances to perform at the big league level at the expense of dropping dead weight like Gotay and Norton.
By LOST BRAVE
July 23, 2008 5:35 PM | Link to this
DOB,i have been on cox’s back all year and i just want to say that he has not thrown one pitch,nor had one at bat. he is the manager. not a player. BUT HE has to accept part of the blame for not having his team ready to play every day. HE CANNOT HELP ALL OF THE INJURIES TO THE PITCHING STAFF.but as I have said so often age and injuries catch up to even the greatest.THE BRAVES MANAGEMENT IS AT FAULT FOR NOT GIVING COX THE PLAYERS HE NEED’S TO WIN.AT LEAST THE SLUT’S CHOKED LAST NITE,I do think that with some adjustment’s the braves will be back in the playoff’s next year.
By 18 Wheels of Love
July 23, 2008 5:35 PM | Link to this
I right there with ya…AM rocked my world at the end of my college days. I’ll download any TVZ album you or DOB suggest if you go download ‘Back in the 90’s’ by Chapel Hill’s ‘Hobex’. Put it on the ipod and roll your windows down and blast ‘Windows’. Best album you’ve never heard by the best band you might have heard of…maybe.
Deal?
By Dan in NJ
July 23, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this
By McFann :Ô:
July 23, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
Chuck—
“Choke prone”?
With RISP, McCann is hitting .295 (28-95).
With the bases loaded, he’s hitting .455 (5-11).
His AVG with runners on base is .310 (48-155).
Choke prone?
Lmao..i knew that wouldn’t slip by you McFann. And not respond. Too funny.
As for OHman. Do you really believe he would just start bashing BC? I’m sure he ain’t that dumb.
BC is the one who batted Norton and Frenchy 5th and 6th. So regardless of injuries, you dont bat either of them in them spots. I’d prefer any other hitter that has an AVE. around 275.ish. Even if he doesn’t have “power” because this year, it seems that NObody has power anyway. That IS all BC fault. and over using guys in the pen early in the season(even now). esp. in blowout games. But i’m almost certain that once the season is totally out of reach, then we will see some (common sense) changes that we’ve been talking about for months.
By Chop Chop
July 23, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this
N8,
At least the Sox knew they’d make the $50 million back in team merchandise sales due to signing Dice-K.
I don’t know about anybody else here, but I’ve never had a single thought of buying Braves merchandise because of Mark Teixeira. For a team in a city like Atlanta, a player (if he isn’t putting the team on his back) being paid more than $20 million a year better be selling a lot of shirts and tickets. If he isn’t, he’s a drag on the payroll.
By bobby
July 23, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this
Last night was just another chapter in the season of the hitless Braves. Of course anytime a team brings a pitcher up from the minors to face the Braves you know what is going to happen. He didn’t get a maidenhead however. That about 3-4 times in the past couple of weeks where they have almost been no-hit.
By monty
July 23, 2008 5:41 PM | Link to this
Craig:
Great post! Totally agree!
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 5:42 PM | Link to this
Brent a.
Good post. I feel the same.
Craig
I’m sure you had some good points in your post, but i’ll never know unless you break that boulder blog up into some paragraphs.
By Braveheart
July 23, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this
Why can’t they just make up an injury for Frenchy and D.L. him for 2, 3, 4 weeks? The kid is a mess. He belongs in the minors …. but he also needs two or so weeks off before he goes down.
If it was just his hitting, that would be one thing…. but it’s his throwing, fielding and running as well. When there is such a dramatic, inexplicable decline in all of your essential baseball skills, it has to be physical and/or mental. I don’t think it has anything to do with an eye. It’s a knee or an ankle combined with a bruised ego.
He needs to step away for a couple of weeks and get his body and mind refreshed. Then he needs to go down to the minors for the rest of the season. Dude is a mess ……… there’s no helping him bail himself out in the majors.
If Tex gets traded, that will be a concession that all hope is lost. If that is the case, there is no reason whatsoever for Francoeur to be up in the majors for the rest of the season.
If Infante proves himself healthy, I would ship him off as well. I love his game but he is a utility guy. Surely, someone out there needs a utility player and will give up something decent for him a la Ascanio or Betemit for Aybar
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 5:44 PM | Link to this
If the Marlins win tonite, they’ll have won 4 straight series…..
something they haven’t done in 2 years.
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this
Kotsay day off, Blanco’s in CF and Infante in LF.
Bobby Cox had mentioned a couple of days ago giving Kotsay a day off, so I’m not taking it as anything more than that — not an indication that he’s been traded, in other words. Although that could come soon enough.
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this
“I was jokingly going to ask (manager Fredi Gonzalez) for the scorecard, because I’ve never been part of a one-hitter,” Nelson said. “Unfortunately the box score is going to say I was the one who gave it up. You know what? That’s fine. We won the game.”
Nelson could pick and choose his scorecards if he were part of this team.
By macdwolfpack
July 23, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this
At what point does a team that almost gets no-hit by every journeyman or rookie start to put some blame on it’s hitting coach? If he’s not here to improve the hitting then why in the world do you have a hitting coach. I really am getting more and more convinced it’s time for a total change in the leadership of the Atlanta Braves.
When I look at what a former assistant is doing with the Milwaukee Brewers (another small market team) with equal or less talent and money, and I look at what Freddie G is doing in Florida with a small market budget and less big name talent compared to Bobby Cox and what he has done the last two years with Atlanta, you have to wonder if it isn’t time for Bobby and Pendelton to retire and bring in new leadership.
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this
Bryan, yes I think the Braves would be open to trading Francoeur, but it wouldn’t be “to help him get a fresh start.” It’d be because they think they can be better with someone else. They’re not in this to help guys get fresh starts, is what I mean.
Not saying they’ve decided to do that, just saying that if they do it, that’d be the reason — and the only reason.
By THWG
July 23, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this
DOB
Are we going to see Gonzo go bye-bye? I have been hearing his name quite a bit, and it makes me pretty uneasy, even if FW decides/realizes that we need to be sellers.
By tiger7_88
July 23, 2008 5:56 PM | Link to this
DOB: in your previous blog, when asking you my “around the watercooler” question, I parenthetically stated “(and where else would anyone get their most accurate information)”, I was sure you would detect my sarcasm, Oh Literate One.
My sarcasm skillz must be failing me in my old age.
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 5:56 PM | Link to this
glove51, we’ve recommended and discussed Mescalito for the past year or so. Great album. I’d think he should be coming out with a new one before long, since that one’s been out probably close to two years. I still play it quite a bit, too.
By Kentavo
July 23, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this
Okay denizens and DOB - serious question.
Will the Braves trade Frenchy - and if so, what could they get in return.
I think they would trade him, despite it being a PR backlash.
I mean he criticized management. That’s usually been a one-way ticket out of town, except for Smoltz’s “homeboy upstairs” comment.
But what could you get for him at this point?
Why not pawn him off on K.C. or Washington, who have all the other Braves rejects?
By Don
July 23, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this
Gee, let’s give Kotsay a day off, he’s earned it so much. Who gives a darn if he screws his back up? It seems like winning ball games right now should trump any of these chumps taking a day off.
By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2009)
July 23, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this
Will Ohman has his opinion and he is entitled to it. But if you follow the same logic, the players get all the credit or all the blame while the coaches are just window dressing. That does not compute.
It’s real simple. When the talent is present and performs up to expectation, the manager and coaches get all the distinction for winning. The reverse is true when the players don’t get it done. We can’t fire the players which is why the manager is held accountable whether it’s justified or not.
This why Cox gets get honored for winning 2,302 games, 15 division titles, five N.L Championships and one World Series. He is going into the Hall of Fame and deservedly so.
When the team underachieves, whether from injury, bad decision making or both, the manager is the guy who is left standing tall and answering to the man. Cox hasn’t had the same talent or pitching compared to what he had back in the nineties. That isn’t his fault.
What is the fault of Bobby Cox is that he can’t win without dominant players and talent. Give the man an average team and he will lose. Cox is over-rated. He is going into the Hall of Fame on the strength of past achievement. Cox can’t compete anymore because he has been exposed as an average tactician when it comes to managing the intricacies of the nine inning game. His post-season record is proof of that fact.
The study in contrast that is Bobby Cox : 2302-1817 ,561 winning percentage in the regular season.
Cox is 66-66 in the post season with a .500 winning percentage.
Cox won his division fifteen times. He won five league championships and one world series.
Cox has lost his division in twelve different seasons, lost four world series, five league championship series and is 12-14 in all post season series.
Cox as the Braves GM drafted Chipper Jones, Ryan Klesko, Mark Wohlers, Steve Avery, Mike Stanton and Kent Mercker. He also traded for John Smoltz.
Cox as the Braves GM also let Frank Thomas, Barry Bonds, Andy Van Slyke, Lenny Dykstra and Howard Johnson get away in the draft and in trade opportunities. He also tried to trade Tom Glavine and David Justice for Mike Greenwell back in 1989. Yea, really, he tried to.
In other words, Cox pizzed away an entire dynasty.
All in all, Cox is living proof that anybody can get into the Hall Of Fame if given the right situation and opportunity..
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 6:03 PM | Link to this
How many times in the last 11 games have the braves been 0 or 1 hit in the first 4-5 innings?
By TNJeff
July 23, 2008 6:03 PM | Link to this
Once again must win with every incentive to win and with the team’s ace on the mound.
Expect a loss
Interesting state from TV cast last night. Braves score 3 or fewer runs there record is 5 wins & 39 losses.
By A-ville Ranger
July 23, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this
You’re a funny guy O’Brien….. you amuse us.
A couple of things on Ohman’s comments.What would you expect him to say about Cox,that he’s the cause of all things bad ?
I think I’ve got an idea of what’s wrong with team chemistry.DOB quoted Ohman as using the way fancy term ”truncated timetable” in the clubhouse, and nobody beat him up ?….. that ain’t right.
By bravos2249
July 23, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this
THWG
Gonzo not on Braves selling List
By Lewis
July 23, 2008 6:07 PM | Link to this
I’m pretty much over anybody taking up for Frnchy. If anybody else out there did there JOB as bad as he does, they would be canned. His whinning is repulsive. Again, nobody else would get to whine about getting demoted and get another chance after 3 days . Grow up Jeff
By GSU-Lee
July 23, 2008 6:08 PM | Link to this
DOB, do you really think that the Braves would trade Frenchy? I personally would be hard pressed to see a scenario in the near future where that would happen but I am not the team’s beat writer so…
By Richard in Goose Creek
July 23, 2008 6:10 PM | Link to this
Just took a quick glance at Frenchy’s splits, and for all of those complaining about him hitting (or lack of)in the 6th spot in the lineup, his average (.241) is higher in that spot than any other spot in the batting order…
YIKES!
By John
July 23, 2008 6:17 PM | Link to this
All of the comments about “why” , “who” and “what if” miss the basic point. The reason this season tanked was the the owner of the club has not been willing to spend the money on fresh, young players of star quality especially for pitching. The idea that Hampton, Glavine, Smoltz or even”four run fourth” Hudson could provide sustained pitching was ridiculous and now we have fill ins that are not yet ready to be competitive. The Braves need to keep Texeria and pay what it takes. Same for Ohman. Once in a while a small budget team can win, but not often. The Braves have been on the cheap for several years now and it has cheated all of us who are the fans that support the team.
By McFann :Ô:
July 23, 2008 6:19 PM | Link to this
Dan in NJ—
Thanks!
DOB not an indication that he’s been traded, in other words. Although that could come soon enough.
You think they’re gonna trade Z?? Why would they do that?
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 6:20 PM | Link to this
Interesting state from TV cast last night. Braves score 3 or fewer runs there record is 5 wins & 39 losses
Careful TNJeff, I said that 2 weeks ago and the response from Shaun and others was that record is standard for most teams when scoring 3 runs or less.
Even though I was trying to point out ways the braves could increase run production beyond 3 lousy runs, it doesn’t bode well on this blog for some reason.
By EB
July 23, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this
Dave-You’re awesome… The Hold Steady Rules!
By BravesFan79
July 23, 2008 6:25 PM | Link to this
If the Braves get rid of Hamptons contract, Glavines contract, and Tex’s contract… WHY in the WORLD cant we afford to pay Ohman 3 mill?
Besides well save 4 mill or so trading Tex before the deadline…just use that money!
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this
McFann,
DOB explained:
*If Kotsay’s back had held up all season, I’d guess they might try to re-sign him given the uncertainty now surrounding CF prospect Jordan Schafer since Schafer’s 50-game HGH suspension and his lackluster play in Double-A since he got back from that suspension.
But Kotsay’s back is a problem, and I can’t see the Braves going into next season with him penciled in as their CF, as much as everyone including manager Bobby Cox loves having the guy in the lineup and in the clubhouse.*
I have no idea what you’d get for him other than a very young prospect who’s a LOOOONG way from the the big leagues.
By TexasBrave
July 23, 2008 6:29 PM | Link to this
DOB how can Kotsay need a day off with an off day coming up and the Braves having only played 5 games after the All-Star Break. Even Chipper doesn’t need the rest. So either something has to be happening with Kotsay or Bobby is trying to get Infante some work.
With that being said I am dumbfounded by Bobby’s decision to keep playing Jeff after his play last night and in the games after the break. I would much rather Infante take the place of Jeff than Kotsay.
By Kentavo
July 23, 2008 6:29 PM | Link to this
We saw how long it took Cox to drop A.J. in the order, so he’s not gonna move Frenchy down anytime soon.
Yes, the talent is inferior these days, but Cox does a poor job of utilizing what he has.
He thinks he can plug a guy in anywhere in any situation and succeed, cuz heck, ”`he’s a major leaguer, gotta be here for reason.”
On another note = I was really surprised to see Soriano and Tavarez out there last night. I figured he’d trot out Boyer, Ohman, Gonzalez, even with it 4-O.
By brian
July 23, 2008 6:31 PM | Link to this
they could easily trade Kotsay and call up Anderson and not be missing very much. I cannot imagine Kotsay would bring much in a trade though.
What could we expect to get for Ohman? He probably would be the second most popular lefty reliever on the trade market behind Fuentes correct?
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 6:33 PM | Link to this
DOB answered with an opinion. It’s his opinion the Braves would be open to the idea.
Nothing less, nothing more.
Thanks for your honest response Dave.
By TNJeff
July 23, 2008 6:33 PM | Link to this
Hey Bobby’s Cox
I wonder what the Braves’ record was during the 14 glory years in 3 runs or less games?
I expect it was far better and thus they (or Cox) NEVER felt compelled to practice small ball because our pitching was so dominant.
Have the Braves won ANY games this year 1-0 or 2-1?
By Shamus Thacker
July 23, 2008 6:34 PM | Link to this
I know I joke alot about Frenchy, but I honestly believe he’ll eventually pull out of it. It’s a mental thing at this stage. A couple lucky bloopers here and there could turn the whole thing around. He sustained a high level of play for too long to suddenly have no talent. That’s how I REALLY feel about Fr-Fr-Fr-Stenchy…
Even though he’s still a whinin’ crybaby. Ask Wellman!
By A-ville Ranger
July 23, 2008 6:36 PM | Link to this
DOB,Iagree Ryan Bingham’s ‘Mescalito is very good.I was thinking it came out about a year back though.
Have you noticed the similarity in the music of the song ‘Sunshine’ on ‘Mescalito’ to Zeppelin’s ‘Kashmir’ ? It’s so close I’d bet it’s intentionally derivative, good song though.
By McFann :Ô:
July 23, 2008 6:40 PM | Link to this
BravesFanInRockies—
Thanks. I remember that now. But I hope they don’t trade Z. I like that guy!
By glorydays
July 23, 2008 6:42 PM | Link to this
We talk of the Braves chances of getting to the playoffs this year. I don’t think it is going to happen this year or anytime soon. The Braves are a lot closer to being a really bad team then a good one. Smoltz, Glavine, Hampton ( or what’s left of them are likely history). Our young pitching staff has over acheived, other than perhaps JJ they just aren’t that good. Hudson is good but not a great #1 pitcher. Our everyday lineup has McCann and as solid player we can depend on for years to come and that’s it. Everyone else is average at best. I don’t see us competing with the Mets, Phillies, or Marlins (who are getting better) for a looong time.
By jaker
July 23, 2008 6:42 PM | Link to this
Kotsay has the day off? I had hoped with Infante back Francoeur would be the one with the day off. Any chance of that happening soon?
By N9
July 23, 2008 6:42 PM | Link to this
all this trade talk for Ohman. man i kinda like the guy anyway we can resign him. Seems like we are not talking about restocking for 2009.
By Shamus Thacker
July 23, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this
The Bravos ain’t paid Hammy a dime in three years, BravesFan79 IF [wish there was a way to make that “IF” neon] he throws a major league pitch this year, they’ll owe him the pro-rated portion of his salary.
By TNJeff
July 23, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this
TexasBrave
Good point - why is Kotsay being benched by Cox? It’s not like he is hitting good either.
Why isn’t Cox benching Chipper since he is literally the only one hitting (& as a bonus try out Corky at 3rd base for his bat strength)?
By BravesFan79
July 23, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this
Keys to the Playoffs Next season!
1)Get a TRUE #1 starter! Smoltz will be closer the 2nd half of next season so we need a true #1 guy. A Oswalt, or Roy Holliday type.
2)DONT PUSH Smoltz to come back until around June or so next season. IF we get to the playoffs…having a healthy Smoltz makes all the difference!
3)Keep Ohman, and Moylan. Trade Soriano now to a team needing bullpen help.
4)PLEASE let someone else be in control of the roster and bullpen decisions besides Cox.
The HORRIBLE decision to go with woodcrap and orr coming out of last spring training instead of a .350 hitting Escobar cost the Braves the playoffs.
Think about it…when Chipper got hurt…our lineup basicially had 5 automatic outs in it! Andrew, Pitcher, Woodcrap, Orr, Thorman. Otherwise i think we stay around 10 games over .500 at the all star break last season.
This year the TERRIBLE roster move was choosing Corky over Pena. Not ONLY did it make Escobar go into a slump and hurt his feelings towards the Braves (you can tell when a guys heart isnt in it as much)
But Corky is just plain Terrible! No bat, and is average at best on defense. Couldnt of Pena given us just as good defense with ALOT better hitting??
Same goes for Javy Lopez…no way should Corky be the backup on a MLB team over those 2!
Go Braves in 2009.
By gayle
July 23, 2008 6:49 PM | Link to this
second try
DOB, the honus is on you now. Anybody can write about a winner, but it is the skilled writer who can chronicle the doings of a non-contender and keep his audience engaged.
As for Ohman’s comments about Cox, do you expect a coming $$ free agent to trash his manager? His comments might be genuine, but you need to remember the context.
His comments notwithstanding, it bothers me to see two former Braves’ coaches now managing contending teams in the NL. Imagine if ownership had put the team ahead of loyalty and given either of them their first shot in Atlanta?
As for Frenchy and the infamous at bat, I hadn’t seen such a pi$$ poor performance since Clu Haywood batted against Ricky “Wild Thing” Vaughan in “Major League”.
“Forget the curveball Ricky, given him the heater.”
It worked on Clu, it worked on Frenchy.
I never played professional baseball, but even I know that after walking the bases full, you come to the plate and TAKE SOME PITCHES!!!!!!!
Any manager that puts players like that on the field should be sent to the clubhouse and places far beyond that.
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this
I’m assured that the market for Tex is there if the Braves decide to trade him. We’ll see. But it was stated to me in a convincing tone by someone who should know.
Braves also believe can fill CF internally next season, assuming Kotsay’s not back (that’s not been entirely ruled out, either, Kotsay returning. But seems unlikely to me)….
A-Ville, you’re right — I just looked it up and it came out Oct. 2, 2007. For some reason I thought I’d had it longer that. Guess that just means I’ve played it a ton.
By N9
July 23, 2008 6:53 PM | Link to this
seems like texas rangers offered two players for gonzo! Were just about to benefit from the laroche trade since gonzo missed out last year. good thing we are keeping him. He brings the fire that a true closer needs to bring.
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 6:55 PM | Link to this
TexasBrave, Kotsay’s back is a problem, as you might have noticed in the first half. They want to prevent a recurrence of spasms and such if they can, so Cox plans to rest him more than other guys. Also, yes, he wants to play Infante in the outfield for a game.
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 6:59 PM | Link to this
Glove51, you’re also right about that Costello album. I think it’s his best in quite a while. He can still rock out when he wants to, can’t he?
By jaker
July 23, 2008 7:04 PM | Link to this
TNJeff, My point wasn’t to say that Kotsay was playing well, but to say that it wouldn’t be a bad thing for Francoeur to sit.
Maybe he could pinch hit late in the game and come with a big 2 out double to send us to an amazing come from behind victory.
By Chop Chop
July 23, 2008 7:04 PM | Link to this
Bobby’s Cox,
Bad records when scoring three runs or less are the standard in baseball. The difference is that the Braves have scored three runs or fewer in 45% (by my count, the Braves are actually 5-40 in these games) of their 100 games played this year.
Yeah…45% of their games.
That’s a big-time problem. That’s why some people were correctly complaining about the offense months ago while others felt that the numbers proved that the offense was good.
If nearly all teams have terrible records when scoring three runs or less, it’s obvious that a team’s offense has to score enough to keep the percentage of those bad games down. I’m too lazy to check, but I would expect the true playoff-contending teams in this division to have the lowest percentages of games in which they pushed three runs or fewer across.
(Okay, okay. I’m not lazy now…)
The Marlins have played 37 games in which they scored three runs or fewer (9-28).
The Phils have also played 37 such games and have a 6-31 record.
The Mets have played 36 of ‘em and have a 6-30 record.
All four teams have played 100 games, so the Braves have played 8% more three-runs-or-fewer games than the Fish and Phils and 9% more than the Mets. They also have fewer wins in such situations. (In case you’re wondering, the Braves haven’t won a game when they’ve scored three runs or less since a May 24th 3-1 win over the D-Backs.)
Not too good, folks.
TNJeff,
The Braves have won no games by a 2-1 or 1-0 score. They have lost four games by those scores, though.
By Interested Observer
July 23, 2008 7:04 PM | Link to this
DOB:
Realistically, how many prospects can we expect to get for Tex?
By Dr.
July 23, 2008 7:06 PM | Link to this
THE BRAVES HAVE BEEN ON A GRADUAL SLIDE FOR SEVERAL YEARS. THIS IS THE END RESULT. ANY MANAGER THAT HAD THE TALENT OF BOBBY COX IN THE 1990S WOULD BE DEEMED A GENIUS. TONY LARUSSA WOULD HAVE HAD 5 RINGS WITH SUCH TALENT.
By DP
July 23, 2008 7:12 PM | Link to this
Sorting those bases loaded hitting stats a little bit differently, the trio of Chipper, Texeira and McCann are 13 for 25 and the rest of the team is 16 for 78, a pathetic .205. Given that the .205 crew gets over 3/4 of the bases loaded at bats (wonder why that is?), I respectfully submit that it’s fair to say that the Braves as a team DO suck with the bases loaded.
By Insider
July 23, 2008 7:15 PM | Link to this
BREAKING: Kotsay traded. Out of lineup because of trade to be announced after tonight’s game’s completion.
By Robin
July 23, 2008 7:15 PM | Link to this
Scat-o-licious: Anything less than a series win here will equate to a messy shart!
By h_charles
July 23, 2008 7:16 PM | Link to this
Not sure I agree with Ohman.
Bret A. said it best above. It isn’t that Cox is a bad manager — he is just now a square peg in a round hole.
We don’t have the self motivated, self disciplined professionals that thrived under Bobby’s unwavering support.
We have a team full of immature players who lack patience and fundamentals, and never seem to pay a price for these mistakes from the manager. This team needs a kick in the rear. Frenchy should have been pulled after that AB (yes, Cox not behind that one).
This team needs to learn to be patient at the plate, take the ball the other way, and wait for the right pitch. KJ, Esco, Frenchy — all way too aggresive at the plate, and somebody needs to hammer patience into their head, not scream “let’s go Frenchy!” from the dugout.
Combine that approach with Bobby’s unwillingness to play smallball (which is ever increasingly important post steroid in the NL East), and the team has broad scope problems.
On top of that, there are some very key moments this year where one could argue Cox 100% cost us games.
Failing to bring in Ohman after warming him up in Chicago when Edmunds came up — blatant error. Pulling Tex for a pinch runner early this year — should NEVER happen. Pitching the same people every day, running them into the ground, while letting half the pen gather dust — never should happen. The final piece is roster loyalty to scrub players. Woodward last year, Miller this year. We can do better. These guys have no business playing ML baseball, but Cox gets these love affairs and the team suffers. Both are automatic outs — essentially 2 pitchers in the order when they played. can’t win that way. Love Bobby, but either the roster needs massive changing or Cox has to go. One or the other. I’m open to either.
By jbutler
July 23, 2008 7:18 PM | Link to this
Costello played here in CO last night at Red Rocks w/the Police- fantastic show…he can crank it up…terrific combo.
Hope the Braves don’t stink more than the Fish down there in S. FL…
By TNJeff
July 23, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this
Runners left on base top of first - I smell another skunk
By keylargo
July 23, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this
Let’s hope that is not the offence for the night.
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 7:24 PM | Link to this
Chop Chop
Thanks for those stats. Incredible stat digging. Props to you.
Count me in on one of those complaining about the offense months ago. In fact, count me in complaining about the offense last year, pre and post Tex. This has been a problem for a while.
Relying on the long ball is not working. More importantly, trying to hit the long ball is not working. The hitters need a new approach. Sadly, it starts with the coaching staff. I posted articles on here about Joe Torre, Mike Scioscia, and everyone’s favorite, the Jose Mota article…about how teams are adapting their managers philosophy.
I really don’t know what else this team can do if it doesn’t go with a new strategy or new management. If you ever wonder why I talk so much about little Martin Prado, Josh Anderson, benching J, changing the batting order, etc… now you know. Barring trade, that’s the only way this team can change things - by switching things around.
Thanks Chop Chop.
By TNJeff
July 23, 2008 7:27 PM | Link to this
Hudson better be able to go 10 scoreless!
By JC FROM UT
July 23, 2008 7:27 PM | Link to this
DOB: Is there interest in Kotsay? When healthy the guy has been grerat, but if you can get something, might as well do it. Also, looking to next season, if Detroit declines the option on Edgar Renteria, could he return to Atlanta as the first baseman?
By Robin
July 23, 2008 7:31 PM | Link to this
Insider: Who’d we get in return?
rubs hands briskly
By TNJeff
July 23, 2008 7:31 PM | Link to this
hey Insider
Cox seems to have abandoned his booger picking. Has he delegated that to someone else? Maddux is no longer on the team though?
By Kotsay to Wren
July 23, 2008 7:32 PM | Link to this
Hey Frank. I really appreciate the opportunity to play for this class organization. If you really feel like you need more prospects, I will volunteer to go play for a contending team. It will be difficult to adjust to winning and the expectation to be competitive every night, but I’ll do it for you, buddy!
By TNJeff
July 23, 2008 7:34 PM | Link to this
JC FROM UT
Intriguing idea!
By Jeff321
July 23, 2008 7:34 PM | Link to this
Good grief!
I hate to say it, but even CORKY MILLER looks better at the plate!
By keylargo
July 23, 2008 7:36 PM | Link to this
Marlins Announcers word for word re: Francoeur -
Fastballs up, man. He just can’t catch up to them.
From one year ago his average was 63 points higher and 21 more RBI’s.
By Mental Midget Frenchy
July 23, 2008 7:36 PM | Link to this
Well, the mental midget is still swinging at the chin high pitch and Monkey See Monkey Do KJ followed him again with another K, just like last night.
By Steve in VABch
July 23, 2008 7:37 PM | Link to this
Why does Bobby continue to run Frenchy out there? It makes no sense at all. Surely somewhere on the farm there is a guy that can at least put the ball in play now and again and play the outfield.
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 7:38 PM | Link to this
TNJeff
Nice reasoning about Bobby and the 90’s braves - that he could rely on the long ball then because of the pitching staff he had.
Never thought of it that way, but it makes sense. I’m sure their record when scoring 3 runs or less in those days was phenomenal (still under .500 I bet, but I mean phenomenal as compared to 5-39). Even if they were 12-32, which was possible in the 90’s, they’d be tied for 1st right now. Incredible.
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 7:40 PM | Link to this
back-to-back HR by Philly in NY to tie the game at 2.
Mets must be reeling. At least they’re closer to 1st though.
By N9
July 23, 2008 7:42 PM | Link to this
Good grief!
I hate to say it, but even CORKY MILLER looks better at the plate! Jeff
not really. but jeff does look lost at the monent. guess that 3 day fly in john Smoltz’s plane to miss. didnt do him well.
By TNJeff
July 23, 2008 7:43 PM | Link to this
2 down - 8 to go Huddy
By Tony Austin
July 23, 2008 7:46 PM | Link to this
Jeff Francoeur is about as an automatic out as you can get. If that’s the best this organization has, then the future looks pretty rough.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 7:47 PM | Link to this
Chop Chop (7:04)
Well said.
On my bookshelf are several of Bill James’ Baseball Abstracts and in the 1983 edition (covering the ‘82 season), he analyzed every AL manager at the time.
One category was: is he patient or is he a problem-solver? At the time, James said Cox was one of the most aggressive problem-solvers in the game. If something was broke, he fixed it, pronto. He wouldn’t let a matter fester and wait for a player to work things out.
That was then, this is now?
By TNJeff
July 23, 2008 7:47 PM | Link to this
should have pitch hit Glavine to bunt for Escobar - pathetic 1st attempt
By N9
July 23, 2008 7:49 PM | Link to this
i missed you yunel!
By TNJeff
July 23, 2008 7:49 PM | Link to this
the recoil on Escobar’s slinging of his bat has more bat speed than Frenchy’s best cut
By Random
July 23, 2008 7:50 PM | Link to this
Man, Blanco is fast!!!
I think he could have fielded that bunt and thrown himself out!
WTG, Esco*!!
By keylargo
July 23, 2008 7:52 PM | Link to this
Gotta get him in Tex. No help behind you.
By Jake
July 23, 2008 7:53 PM | Link to this
Chipper Jones is like the living book on how to hit. Laid off the high pitches behind in the count, still moved the runners over. Hope Frenchy was watchin.
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 7:53 PM | Link to this
huddy with a single, Blanco with a bunt single. Double by Escobar. Beautiful.
Nothing like a little small ball to rattle the pitcher and get a pitch to hit.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 7:54 PM | Link to this
OK, if they intentionally walk Tex and Heap to get to Frenchy and Jeff strikes out, can we send him down now?
By DAP
July 23, 2008 7:54 PM | Link to this
DOB quick question for you…i heard just a bit of the radio broadcast a few minutes ago, and pete was saying that he talked to someone from the marlins org. that said this braves team was the most undisciplined braves team at the plate he has ever seen. pete seemed to give the guy alot of weight, but i didnt hear the guy’s name or who he was…could you ask pete if you see him who he was talking about? i know you dont need anything else to do, but if you get a chance…
By TNJeff
July 23, 2008 7:55 PM | Link to this
Frenchy’s got to be relieved that McCann hit into that double play rather than walked and put him up there with bases loaded
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this
Oh well. Heap hits into DP. Never mind.
By Bunt Smunt
July 23, 2008 7:58 PM | Link to this
Does the manager in fact run the team? This isn’t a retorical question, it’s for real.
The reason I ask, how important is it to be able to lay down an effective bunt and move the runners up? Pretty important in my book. The reason I asked the manager question was to head off any would-be excuse from Cox defenders who would say, ” oh well those guys are supposed to know how to bunt when they get there.” I don’t care what they are supposed to know and what they aren’t supposed to know, Guys like Escobar would be bunting every day in BP until they couldn’t bunt any more, even at the expense of costing him full swing BP. I promise you after a while, these guys would learn the art. There’s no excuse for guys to go up there in a sacrifice situation bunting for a hit. That’s a lack of discipline. (Just like being a big leaguer in your 3rd year and swinging at pitch after pitch under your chin) Yet it continues to happen time and time again. Why is that?
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 8:00 PM | Link to this
DAP,
I understand Don Baylor is healthy and possibly cancer-free and is looking for work in baseball again. He’d be a very nice addition to the coaching staff, if you know what I mean.
By N9
July 23, 2008 8:01 PM | Link to this
het DAP, we really are an aggressive team during at bats. and dont forget Diaz too hes one aggressive puppy!
By mitchie-san
July 23, 2008 8:05 PM | Link to this
Wow, did that just happen? Good at-bat Jeff.
By A-ville Ranger
July 23, 2008 8:07 PM | Link to this
DAP, These ‘sources’ usually want to be quoted anonymously.At least when they tell an uncomfortable truth.
By Jeff321
July 23, 2008 8:07 PM | Link to this
Wow, ya don’t see that everyday from Frenchy. He hits a home run distance foul ball to left then follows it up with a double to right field.
Good for him, I really get tired of ripping on the guy but it just flows like water sometimes.
By Steve in VABch
July 23, 2008 8:07 PM | Link to this
Guess Jeff didn’t like my earlier comment and made contact to prove me wrong. WAY TO GO JEFF
By Steve in VABch
July 23, 2008 8:07 PM | Link to this
Guess Jeff didn’t like my earlier comment and made contact to prove me wrong. WAY TO GO JEFF
By Braveheart
July 23, 2008 8:07 PM | Link to this
Useless statistical information:
The Braves were 29-8 when Chuck James got 4 or more runs of support.
The Braves are 9-7 when JoJo Reyes gets 4 or more runs of support.
1-17 when Chuck James got less than 4 runs of support
0-10 when JoJo gets less than 4 runs of support
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 8:08 PM | Link to this
The braves have been undisciplined at the plate for about 3 seasons now DAP. Not sure you need someone in baseball to tell you that if you’ve watched the games.
With Frenchy, Diaz, Andruw, LaRoche, Thorman, Langerhans, are just to name a few. I know it’s not a big list, but plate discipline is knowing the situation in which you’re batting as well, and there hasn’t been a lot of that in the past 3 years either. Hack-a jack has brought anything but discipline. Whatever happened to making the pitcher throw you your pitch, moving runners up and over, sac flys?
This team may have the same common goal to make it to the postseason, but its hitters show no common goal in how to push each other across the plate.
By southbeachdietfreak
July 23, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this
Are you guys watching the same game I am? It says the Braves lead 3-0. Just wanna make sure.
By BossLady
July 23, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this
What’s going on in the game?
Travel day for me, no channel in hotel
By N9
July 23, 2008 8:15 PM | Link to this
Welcome to the Gregor Blanco show
yep 3 hits and its 4th inn.
By Mr. Optimistic
July 23, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this
well good thing with the score bad thing with chipper man can anything go right this season
By Jeff321
July 23, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this
Well, looks like Chipper is bent over holding his leg.
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 8:19 PM | Link to this
UNN-believable.
Just when things are going great in a game … disaster.
By McFann :Ô:
July 23, 2008 8:19 PM | Link to this
TNJeff—
Ha ha.
By BossLady
July 23, 2008 8:21 PM | Link to this
I hope that is the score, thanks
By Chop Chop
July 23, 2008 8:22 PM | Link to this
Well, looks like the Braves are going to win this series. The very good Huddy showed up tonight, while the “I’m pitching against the Braves” version of Ricky Nolasco showed up.
By PIERSONBRAVE
July 23, 2008 8:23 PM | Link to this
NOOOOOO. Chipper’s hurt his hammy. WE ARE DONE!
By DAP
July 23, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this
hey bobby’s cox, shutup. ive watched many many games the last three seasons.
to every one else, i know we have an agressive team, but this guy, who pete named, by the way, so it wasnt an anonymous source(i just missed it…volume was down on the radio), said it was the most undisciplned (not aggressive) braves team he had ever seen. im just wondering who pete was talking about, since pete seemed to give the guy alot of credibility. im sure DOB could easily find out who it was if he happens to cross paths with pete.
By N9
July 23, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this
DOB,
disaster? how bad is chipper hurt. oh god thats all we need after all this injury-filled year.
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 8:26 PM | Link to this
Braves finally stringing together hits BossLady
Hudson, Blanco, Escobar - 2 singles then double in 3rd.
Francoeur/KJ - back to back doubles in 4th followed by Blanco/Escobar back-to-back hits later in inning.
2 doubles for Esco, 4 total for team. Blanco 3-3.
Good offensive night & Braves hoping they can face Nolasco everyday.
Nice to see the stringing together of hits. It’s been a long time coming. Too bad you’re missing out.
By Lew
July 23, 2008 8:26 PM | Link to this
Francoeur hits and Chipper gets hurt. If only Frenchy had hit a Home Run it would have been different, right? Somehow it’s his fault, isn’t it?.
By A-ville Ranger
July 23, 2008 8:26 PM | Link to this
It wouldn’t be the craziest old thing to make 1st base a ft wider,extending it into foul territory.
There are recurring problems with runners that are never at issue with 2nd and 3rd.
By N9
July 23, 2008 8:27 PM | Link to this
feels like Dan Uggla is slightly overrated! poor defense, .271 avg.
By Steve in VABch
July 23, 2008 8:28 PM | Link to this
Who wants to bet Tex hits a homerun tonight now that we have a 5 run lead and there is no pressure?
By 18 Wheels of Love
July 23, 2008 8:28 PM | Link to this
Just like the old tarp at Fulton-County…”When it rains, it pours.”
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 8:31 PM | Link to this
UNN-believable is right.
Man, chipper needs yoga. Half the time he moves he pulls something. Do some hockey goalie stretch routines chipper. We NEED YOU!
By McFann :Ô:
July 23, 2008 8:32 PM | Link to this
Well, this is the thanks I get for being positive.
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 8:35 PM | Link to this
Easy DAP
I didn’t mean that as a knock towards you. More as a knock to the braves…meaning it’s been really apparent - something that doesn’t need a scout to figure out.
I’m curious who said it too & thanks for the post. Sorry if it came across wrong.
By TN-MAN
July 23, 2008 8:35 PM | Link to this
DOB, if we weren’t in sell mode before, have to think the injury to Chipper just pushed us over the edge dont you?
By edward
July 23, 2008 8:35 PM | Link to this
Ok. DHD, I read you put Jason Bay into our lineup. WHY????? He sucks. He is worse than Frenchy and Tex combined. I live in PITTSburgh and trust me, he sucks. He is an underachiever at the plate and lazy in the field. He just plain makes bad decisions all around. If we need an outfielder from the Pirates I say we get McClouth. The guy has been raking all year. Nady is good, but I think he is just an aberration this year. McClouth has been good since he was first brought up. I think we can trade for him. Also, Jack Wilson is a solid SS. I say let’s trade Frenchy for McClouth or Wilson. I bet we could get any number of decent hitters for Tex and Frenchy. It sucks that frenchy bombed, but let’s not wait till he totally implodes. The one thing I have never read about in regards to staff is Pendleton. He was a great hitter and all, but seriously, is he really doing that good a job?? Everyone wants to complain about Bobby, but he is not the one working with the hitters constantly. McDowell has done an amazing job. I was nervous when he was hired but he really has been outstanding. I think Pendleton has got to go though. I bet people would be hitting a lot better. Let’s look at the problem, no hitting, and see who is really doing the worst job. Not Bobby I will guarantee that!!
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 8:36 PM | Link to this
No word yet from the clubhouse on extent of Chipper’s hammy injury.
By BossLady
July 23, 2008 8:41 PM | Link to this
Thanks, Bobby’s Cox
Great play by play, I understood each hit.
Sorry I got to miss it too, but, money is money and I love to spend it. LOL
Any word on Chipper yet?
By It's all Scatalogical
July 23, 2008 8:46 PM | Link to this
Runners left on base top of first - I smell another skunk
No - that’s not it. He who smelt it dealt it.
By Bobby's Cox
July 23, 2008 8:48 PM | Link to this
edward
Following Bay every day between 05-07 as he was on my fantasy team, I thought the same thing.
I haven’t followed him this year, but his stats have improved somewhat. McClouth I would imagine is untradeable, but I’ve been a bigger supporter of Nady than Bay as a trade option here on this blog. He seems to get more hits when the situation calls for it.
By Jeff321
July 23, 2008 8:49 PM | Link to this
Marlins announcers say Chipper will be reevaluated on Friday. (left hamstring)
By Saltywoody
July 23, 2008 8:52 PM | Link to this
How much you wanna bet Chipper’s quoted in the next few days as saying “something just came up and bit me?”
Haven’t heard that enough yet.
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 8:52 PM | Link to this
They’re calling it a left hamstring strain and Wren says it’s not believed to be serious. Chipper will be reevaluated Friday.
By cooper
July 23, 2008 8:55 PM | Link to this
Announcers said hammy strain with an evaluation on Friday.
If it is just a strain versus a tear they may have dodged a bullet.
Hold on and get the win, win the series and move on.
By BossLady
July 23, 2008 8:55 PM | Link to this
Watching Law & Order SVU, They just shot the witness, the judge, the detective named Elliott and bailiff in the courtroom, weird indeed
What’s the score?
By Shamus Thacker
July 23, 2008 8:55 PM | Link to this
Bobby now waits till he’s kicked out to pick boogs. He can wipe two or three days worth on the tunnel wall, but most importantly it’s private, making it all the more enjoyable.
By It's all Scatalogical
July 23, 2008 8:57 PM | Link to this
(Bill) James said … (Bobby Cox) wouldn’t let a matter fester…
But after a couple of hot dogs and cheap beer, something else would fester.
By Random
July 23, 2008 8:58 PM | Link to this
You’re a good man, Charlie Chop.
You’re a better man than I am, Gunga Chop.
Yer the best, Chop Chop.
sniff
(Holding back the tears can make you cry, you know.)
By Mike in LA
July 23, 2008 8:59 PM | Link to this
Oh man, what else can happen? Hudson is coming out after 68 pitches and was shown grabbing his elbow in the dugout
By Shamus Thacker
July 23, 2008 9:00 PM | Link to this
This has been a very strange year.
By TN-MAN
July 23, 2008 9:02 PM | Link to this
DOB, what about Hudson? Coming out of the game with 68 pitches something is up?
By Braveheart
July 23, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this
How much you wanna bet Chipper’s quoted in the next few days as saying “something just came up and bit me?” Haven’t heard that enough yet.
His other favorite b.s. excuse is the “freak accident.” A little less time in the video room and a little more time on the yoga mat would lead to more Chipper on the field.
By McFann :Ô:
July 23, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this
Heh heh, I spoke too soon (sort of).
.296!
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 9:06 PM | Link to this
Hudson only threw 68 pitches, so we’ll see how bad his elbow is (he was holding it, for those of you not watching game on TV)
By Steve from OH
July 23, 2008 9:07 PM | Link to this
Paging Mike Hampton…
By N9
July 23, 2008 9:08 PM | Link to this
pete on radio said he saw hudson point to inner elbow and shaking off arm. hopefully not a costly night
By It's all Scatalogical
July 23, 2008 9:13 PM | Link to this
Holding back the tears can make you cry, you know.
And holding back something else can lead to intestinal difficulties.
Especially after a couple of hot dogs and cheap beer.
By BossLady
July 23, 2008 9:15 PM | Link to this
Maybe the Braves have some bad Karma out there.
Let’s see now, who did they scr%w?&
By It's all Scatalogical
July 23, 2008 9:17 PM | Link to this
How much you wanna bet Chipper’s quoted in the next few days as saying “something just came up and bit me”?
What “came up” and “bit” him was the hot dogs and cheap beer he wolfed down prior to the game.
By Jeff321
July 23, 2008 9:17 PM | Link to this
If Chipper is really hurt “bad” this time, they need to DL him immediately. Because this whole sitting on the bench (taking up a roster spot) for 2 weeks is BS.
BossLady its 6-0 with 2 on and 1 out.
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 9:19 PM | Link to this
Yep, it just might be time for Hampton to be thrust into the rotation with no more rehab or bullpen sessions (and thus no more chances to get hurt)
Hudson’s next start would be Tuesday. Hampton was to throw a final BP Sunday and told us yesterday he was ready to pitch if that went well, that he didn’t need more rehab games, arm felt fine.
By N9
July 23, 2008 9:19 PM | Link to this
at least hampton is felling great!
By N9
July 23, 2008 9:19 PM | Link to this
at least hampton is feeling great!
By bravos2249
July 23, 2008 9:21 PM | Link to this
DOB
Unless the game doesn’t mean anything…if Huddy’s fine and with the low pitch count do you think Bobby might have him go on 3 days rest Sunday…since Jojo has struggled?
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 9:21 PM | Link to this
Blanco matched career highs with four hits, three RBIs. Also reached base all five times.
By Steve from OH
July 23, 2008 9:23 PM | Link to this
Hmm…Bowman says Hammy might pitch Saturday against Philadelphia in place of JoJo.
By Mike Hampton's vajayjay (Run Heap Run!)
July 23, 2008 9:25 PM | Link to this
A series win but Chipper and possibly Huddy injured? You’re right DOB, this isn’t funny.
By bravos2249
July 23, 2008 9:26 PM | Link to this
Jeff321
he could hit with the quad…you can’t with a hammy HELLO!
By BossLady
July 23, 2008 9:26 PM | Link to this
Thanks Jeff
I will only believe Hampton is in is when I see him throw the first pitch from the game mound. Otherwise, so be it…
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 9:27 PM | Link to this
HUDSON tightness in elbow, will be reevaluated tomorrow
By Jeff321
July 23, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this
Hudson left the game with “tightness” in his elbow.
Too bad we didn’t trade him!
By Chris
July 23, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this
I know Hudson was pointing at the elbow…but WHY WAS MIKE HAMPTON POINTING AT IT? KEEP THAT GUY AWAY FROM HUDSON!
I do like that after seeing that the FSN guys suggested Frank Wren get an adult beverage of his choice
By N9
July 23, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this
so we get a nice win and then it gets dampened with our best pitcher and best hitter getting hurt with an early exit. GREAT.
By DHD
July 23, 2008 9:29 PM | Link to this
They should let Hampton pitch the rest of the games to get their money’s worth. :)
In the middle of all this stuff, the Braves are going to beat Florida 2 out of 3. Do that in Philadelphia and we’re still in limbo.
By Andy K.
July 23, 2008 9:30 PM | Link to this
DOB, ALL: Bowman over at braves.com says Mike Hampton will be ready to go, and Bobby is considering starting him Saturday in Jo Jo’s place. This’ll be good, because Jo Jo has really been struggling lately, and can refine himself @ AAA, so set your tivos for saturday!
By It's all Scatalogical
July 23, 2008 9:30 PM | Link to this
This isn’t funny-like-a-clown funny.
But it’s funny-like-a-whoopee cusion funny.
By KC
July 23, 2008 9:36 PM | Link to this
If Hudson misses any time with this elbow thing, it’ll be time to call the season before anyone drops dead on the field. That’s about the only thing we haven’t seen.
By Buyers
July 23, 2008 9:38 PM | Link to this
Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers!Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers!Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers!Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers! Buyers!
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this
Chipper hurt, Huddy hurt …
Ya think the baseball gods are telling us to sell?
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this
Andy, he probably won’t be starting in Jo-Jo’s place now, that’s for sure. Hampton definitely says he’s ready to go, but I’d be surprised if they don’t plug him in for Hudson now
By Chad
July 23, 2008 9:43 PM | Link to this
*By BossLady
July 23, 2008 9:15 PM | Link to this
Maybe the Braves have some bad Karma out there.
Let’s see now, who did they scr%w?&*
Is Chief Nokahoma still out there?
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this
For those who have suggested moving Chipper to 1st —
Tonight’s injury (if not the entire 2008 season) should tell you why it won’t happen. He’s had leg/knee/foot issues much of his career. He’d have a tough time staying healthy at all as a regular 1B.
Besides, he’s a gem at the hot corner.
By KC
July 23, 2008 9:46 PM | Link to this
BREAKING NEWS:
San Fransisco - The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals Unanimously ruled on Wednesday afternoon that Will Ohaman and Blaine Boyer are not legally obligated to pitch every day, regardless of circumstance.
Atlanta Braves Manager, Bobby Cox, called the ruling “unacceptable”, and vowed to fight it all the way to the Supreme Court.
By Jeff321
July 23, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this
he could hit with the quad…you can’t with a hammy HELLO!
YEAH, I think we all saw Chipper’s hitting while “injured” and taking up a roster spot. How about, he gets a walk or hit and Brent Lillibridge came in to run for him. So, ya burn two players, eh?
By bravos2249
July 23, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this
DOB
on tv Porter and others didn’t seem to look @ Huddy as if it’s THAT bad.
By KC
July 23, 2008 9:50 PM | Link to this
I sincerely hope the rotation for the Phillies series will be Jurrjens, Campillo, and Hampton… but assuming Hampton is ready, I doubt Bobby will skip Morton.
The season could very well be decided this weekend, and should be played as though it were a late September series. But Bobby won’t do it. I’ll bet money on that.
By DHD
July 23, 2008 9:54 PM | Link to this
Yeah….somebody put that dang teepee back up.
Y’all remember when Ted took it down and we went on a losing streak?
By Robert S
July 23, 2008 9:54 PM | Link to this
Wow, if Hudson goes down for any length of time……any chance that a trade for possibly Greg Maddux would be considered? Bronson Arroyo, maybe?
By kev
July 23, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this
It’s the Curse of The Hampton!!!
By southbeachdietfreak
July 23, 2008 10:01 PM | Link to this
Buuuddyy?????
By LT-AA Blogger
July 23, 2008 10:01 PM | Link to this
KC- funny stuff.
Thanks for making me laugh despite the horror that surrounds (referring to the Braves that is).
By glove51
July 23, 2008 10:02 PM | Link to this
DOB: ON Costello — after all these years and all these different types of records (some of them not exactly my cup of tea), I am convinced that Elivs can do just about whatever the hell he chooses when it comes to making a good record.
The 2nd song on the CD, AMerican Gangtser Time, Steve Nieve’s organ sounds like it came right off the This Year’s Model record from 30+ years ago.
I sure hope he comes to The Cain’s this fall or winter. I saw him there when he was touring in supoort of The Delivery Man(on St. Patty’s day no less) and that was a great show.
By StingerSplash
July 23, 2008 10:04 PM | Link to this
Buddy Carlyle’s ERA just jumped from 3.13 to 4.26. Ouch.
By KC
July 23, 2008 10:04 PM | Link to this
GONZO?!! ARE YOU SERIOUS?!!!! There is no reason for him to be in the game with a 6 run lead and one out in the 9th.
DOB: Is Soriano not ready????
Robert S: Maddux would have to be the guy. First of all, he can help us, where Aroyo isn’t getting anyone out. Second, Maddux is very attainable for the Braves, as he’s one of only a couple teams he’ll accept a trade to.
But we’ve got to take 2 of 3 in Phili and kick the Cardinals series off well immediately after that, if we are to expect Wren to ADD anything to this team.
By N9
July 23, 2008 10:06 PM | Link to this
nice game buddy C. Have you noticed his era has BLOWN UP the last two outings
By Robert S
July 23, 2008 10:07 PM | Link to this
Could very well be the most costly win of the year, if Chipper and Huddy’s injuries keep them out for a while. Better get on the phone, Frank…..
By McFann :Ô:
July 23, 2008 10:08 PM | Link to this
Series win on the road? Sweet!
But it’s reminding me of Night at the Museum:
Larry: “We lost a couple of great little men out there tonight.”
Teddy R.: “With great victory comes great sacrifice.”
Night, al!!
By N9
July 23, 2008 10:08 PM | Link to this
this game was a LOSS in my books
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 10:09 PM | Link to this
Buddy’s coming back to earth. Too bad.
And as a closer, Gonzo is a joy to watch. What a competitor.
By JEB
July 23, 2008 10:09 PM | Link to this
Bravo’s take a series!!! 2 on the road!! “It’s a festivas miracle!”
By Andruw update
July 23, 2008 10:12 PM | Link to this
1-3, 1RBI (12RBI for 2008), 1BB, 1K, 3LOB, .166avg
By KC
July 23, 2008 10:13 PM | Link to this
Can’t wait to see what Phillies hitters can do against JoJo, the way he’s throwing right now.
On second thought… I can.
By Robert S
July 23, 2008 10:13 PM | Link to this
KC - I’m with you there. Maddux has reportedly said he wouldn’t mind going back to Atlanta, mainly because his family have lived there and it wouldn’t be a hard transition to make, and it would only be for two months.
But first things first - if Huddy’s OK, then it renders the point moot. If not, the trade only would be visited if the Braves can win 2 of 3 or sweep Philly this weekend, and they’d likely have to do it without Chipper.
Yikes.
And yes, Mad Dog would be a better choice than Arroyo, although the Yankees are looking at him.
By i cant take it anymore
July 23, 2008 10:14 PM | Link to this
was that a showcase of ohman tonight?
By JEB
July 23, 2008 10:15 PM | Link to this
Blanco is doing very well at the top of the order! Great night tonight, AND (this will make many of you angry) he is crediting Terry Pendleton for his improvement!!
By Tomas
July 23, 2008 10:17 PM | Link to this
Buddy’s finally showing his true colors. Maybe he is just a good first half guy. And KC I agree 100 percent with you on having Soriano pitch after Buddy blew it. It was a great chance to seeing him pitch for the first time since going into the DL with a 9-3 lead and give mike gonzales another day to rest.
By N9
July 23, 2008 10:19 PM | Link to this
cnnsi.com has a sweet picture of TEX as the main story. GREAT
By KC
July 23, 2008 10:22 PM | Link to this
Robert S: IF the Braves are in a position to be buyers a week from now… I would trade for Maddux, regardless of whether or not Hudson misses any time.
I think Maddux is a better option than either Morton or Reyes down the stretch. If Hampton and Glavine BOTH wind up healthy, then you have a logjam problem… but how likely is it that both of those guys will get/remain healthy the rest of the way?
If we’re buyers, Maddux would be a valuable addition, and I don’t think we’d have to give up a ton to get him, under the circumstances - with him talking retirement at the end of the year.
By Why Us
July 23, 2008 10:23 PM | Link to this
Whoa Buddy!
Last 2 innings (Nats/Fish) 8 hits, 10 ER, ERA from 1.52 to 4.26——yikes.
Shades of last year. Pitched great for a long period, then seemed to hit the wall or something, then he was justing throwing BP for the rest of the season.
Looks like deja vu all over again for Budddy. Up till these last 2 games he’d been a very pleasant surprize out of the pen. Hope he can recover, we need him in the pen.
Anyway it’s a W.
Now to stress over Chip & Huddy during the day off while waiting for updates.
By THWG
July 23, 2008 10:24 PM | Link to this
Too bad the fish didn’t score 4 more… then we could win a one-run game on the road! I don’t think we will win a one-run road game the rest of the year. So sad.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 10:24 PM | Link to this
Robert S, KC,
Maddux has reportedly said that he wants to stay on the West Coast if he’s traded.
I don’t want the Braves (who are still in fourth place, mind you) to make a move out of desperation.Those of you old enough to remember — it was late August 1983 that the Braves sent Brett Butler, Brook Jacoby and Rick Behenna to the Indians for Len Barker. The Braves didn’t win in ‘83 and paid for that trade with years of losing afterward.
Don’t think Wren will do something anywhere near that foolish. But keep it between the lines, folks.
By champ
July 23, 2008 10:25 PM | Link to this
I just saw the replay when they took Hudson out and was shaking his arm on the bench. Did anyone else see that Mike Hampton came over and touched Hudson’s arm? Good Lord get that guy away from any pitchers arm!!!
By KC
July 23, 2008 10:27 PM | Link to this
i cant take it anymore: Ohman has 51 appearances, and it’s not even August yet. If there were ever a player that doesn’t need to be showcased… it’s Will Ohman.
By kirknga
July 23, 2008 10:28 PM | Link to this
A rare road series win. Unfortunately more not so rare injuries as well.
Stranger still, we have people now looking forward to having a Hampton pitch!
Now I wonder how long until we get Acosta back?
By Robert S
July 23, 2008 10:29 PM | Link to this
Took the words right out of my mouth, BravesFanInRockies. I guess he started to remember he was a mediocre journeyman.
Fun factoid about Carlyle - he has a plaque at Hank Aaron Stadium here in Mobile recognizing his contribution to the Mobile BayBears minor league team in 1998 - he was 14-6 that year. Kinda looks funny sitting next to that Jake Peavy plaque, though……
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 10:30 PM | Link to this
Huddy hopes to make his next start, thinks he’ll be able to, said he’d have stayed in if closer game and no off day tomorrow.
Chipper hopes to miss only a couple days, but said it’s sore and he doesn’t know. Not certain about DL, but hopeful he can stay off it.
No word on Hampton, but he told me they haven’t told him if he’ll pitch Saturday or not.
By KC
July 23, 2008 10:30 PM | Link to this
BravesFanInRockies: Greg Maddux has also stated outright in a recent interview that he WOULD accept a trade to the Braves.
By Tomas
July 23, 2008 10:31 PM | Link to this
Man I have to say, the will Ohman and infante trade was a great one the way both of them have played. If i’m Frank Wren I give Ohman the 3 million he is looking for, I mean the guy deserves it, and its been a long time since the braves have had a lefty like Ohman in the bulpen. I mean Ring has been shaky to say the least, and Gonzo is the closer. So I think that 3 million it’s not really a lot for this day on age, and I don’t really see a good lefthanded pitcher apart from Gonzo and Ohman.
By Robert S
July 23, 2008 10:46 PM | Link to this
BravesFanInRockies, I understand your fear of the Braves just reacting and trading foolishly. At the same time, I don’t think it would take more than a moderate A or AA prospect to land Maddux, similar to the Bob Wickman for Max Ramirez deal. Ramirez has had mixed results so far in the bigs, although he’s now in Texas.
This was posted on the MLB Trade Rumors blog on July 14, and it quotes Mark Bowman:
Braves beat writer Mark Bowman talked to Greg Maddux, who as you know has a full no-trade clause. When asked where he could see himself playing in August and September, Maddux named the Braves and Dodgers. He said he’d likely approve a trade to Atlanta.
That’s why I mentioned Maddux, and there are conflicting reports - one, that Maddux would only accept trades on the West Coast, and the other being that he might accept a deal to Atlanta, which came from the Mark Bowman interview with Greg. So who knows for sure?
One thing is for sure and that is the Braves wouldn’t make such a foolish trade like the Butler for Barker deal. I was around when that horrid Len Barker trade was made. I was a teenager then, and all I could do was shake my head at the fact that the Braves gave up so much, only to get so little in return.
I don’t think that would happen if the Braves made a play for Mad Dog, and he accepts the trade. And the Braves would have to win 6 of the next 7 games for that to even be a consideration. Also, Hudson would have to be out of commission for a while. Given those factors, I think we’re being realistic here.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 10:48 PM | Link to this
Robert S, KC,
From MLB.com today:
*Maddux, 42, has a full no-trade clause and, according to sources, would only be willing to leave San Diego if it was for a West Coast team.
Another source said on Tuesday that Maddux (3-8, 4.21 ERA) would prefer to be traded to the Dodgers if he were to leave San Diego.*
Of course he could be pulling somebody’s leg. The Dodgers are right in the race but need middle IF more than pitchers.
By keylargo
July 23, 2008 10:51 PM | Link to this
Maddux has said he would accept a trade to the Braves. It would not take anything more than a marginal prospect for him in trade. He is most likely retiring and is not under contract past this year. San Diego would save the approximately $4 million left on his contract. They are finishing out of the money with or without him.
By Robert S
July 23, 2008 10:52 PM | Link to this
I think DOB’s comments about Huddy making his next start probably renders the Maddux talk moot. Although I do agree with KC in that he’d be a nice addition, only if the Braves are within striking distance in a week and only after they aqcuire a bat.
Weren’t we talking about the Braves being toast just last night? I was. This game is maddening sometimes, or maybe it’s just the Braves. They tease you until the end.
But I do like this time of the year, and all the trade talk.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 10:54 PM | Link to this
To set the record straight, folks, I still hope the Braves are buyers and sellers. The team doesn’t need anything like a full makeover but it could sure handle a nip and a tuck, whether they’re making a run in ‘08 or getting ready for ‘09.
By cooper
July 23, 2008 10:58 PM | Link to this
DOB with JOJO looking like the JOJO of spring training 2008 and last year in other words doing his best Forrest Gump (you never know what you’re gonna get) I wouldn’t be surprised if Bobby gives Hampton the nod on Saturday.
I am sure Bobby would also hope they would trade for AJ Burnett or Maddux before Saturday as well. :)
With the team on life support putting JOJO in there against the Phillies (on the road) would be akin to playing Russian Roulette with 6 bullets in the gun.
JOJO’s flight to Richmond is likely booked Friday AM if Hudson says he is ok.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 10:59 PM | Link to this
DOB,
Thanks for the Huddy/Chipper update.
If Chipper thinks he might have to go on the DL, that doesn’t sound good.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 23, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this
Sabathia just wrapped up his 3rd straight CG. The Brew Crew has won seven in a row, six on the road. Wow.
By Robert S
July 23, 2008 11:03 PM | Link to this
“I still hope the Braves are buyers and sellers.”
I can totally agree with you there, BravesFanInRockies. A nip and tuck would do this team good, even if they still ride out the schedule with scant hopes of making the postseason. This team has to improve personnel-wise and chemistry-wise (at least some parts of the offense and the bench) and it can still be done this year without giving up the farm.
By ArkyTech
July 23, 2008 11:08 PM | Link to this
Uh, anybody else feel a little better if JoJo hangs arounds until AFTER Hampton’s start. You know, just in case…….
By brian
July 23, 2008 11:11 PM | Link to this
One thing that Steve Phillips mentioned that was interesting on baseball tonight was the Arizona Diamondbacks needing Tex(they would move Connor Jackson to LF). He said it was unlikely since they just moved for Rausch the more teams that are mentioned the better. I do not know who the Dbacks have though I am sure we would ask for Max Scherzer (or however you spell his name). The one accurate thing mentioned is that the Braves would have to be sure they are getting enough to make it worthwhile to give up the 2 draft picks.
Gammons mentioned Gonzales is off limits but that Ohman is available
By Robert S
July 23, 2008 11:12 PM | Link to this
“Sabathia just wrapped up his 3rd straight CG.”
Nice to know the complete game is not an endangered species up in Milwaukee, because it sure is everywhere else!
Take last night’s Mets-Phillies game. Johan Santana was pulled after 8 innings and 105 pitches, and the Mets duly blew up in the ninth.
105 pitches!!! Heck, I remember the days when the best pitchers threw 15, 20, and sometimes even 25 complete games in a season, not a career. There were no pitch counts then, but now pitchers are babied. What a shame.
But good for CC! He’s a freakin’ workhorse!
By Robert S
July 23, 2008 11:17 PM | Link to this
ArkyTech, I’m sure whatever plane JoJo’s taking to Richmond will be kept on ice until Hampton gets through the sixth inning without straining a hangnail. They might even ride Hampton back to the dugout on a golf cart just to be sure he gets there safely. But what if he trips getting off the cart? Crap!
Scratch that idea. Better keep JoJo handy on Saturday. Good thought, ArkyTech.
By Random
July 23, 2008 11:19 PM | Link to this
Updated: in Braves’ 6 one-run wins, imo Tex was “clutch” in 4 games and “non-clutch” in 2 games.
From last blog:
For N8, Moby Grape, Braves Fan in Tn, et al, and yes, for DOB:
What with all the hoo-ha (aka foofaraw) the past couple days as to whether Tex is “clutch” or not, I thought I’d take a look at how he’s done in “important games” in this season only. (No career stats, no season stats, no last arbitrary number of games played stats). By “important games”, I mean simply the Braves’ 22 one-run so far losses this season.
Arbitrary sample? Maybe, but I hope it focuses on those games where he could have most made a difference, and it represented a manageable effort on my part.
In those 22 one-run losses, I have concluded that Tex was “clutch” in 8 games, “non-clutch”* in **11 games, with 3 games being a toss-up. My game by game figurings are listed below.
I agree with N8 — I have high expectations for a player to be considered “clutch”. As a minimum, for Tex to be considered a “clutch” hitter, I would expect him to come through “in the clutch” twice as often as not. I think the recaps below show that he has fallen well short of that expectation in the Braves’ 22 one-run losses.
3/30 @ WAS, 2-3 (Tex 1-4, 2B, 1 K, 1 LOB; top 9th, Tex doubles, Prado pinch runs, scores to tie game at 2: clutch for Tex)
3/31 v PIT, 11-12 (Tex 0-6, 1 K, 5 LOB; bottom 9th, down 9-5, Chipper drives in 6th & 7th runs, Tex pops up, McCann drives in 8th & 9th runs: no clutch for Tex)
4/3 v PIT, 3-4 (Tex 0-5, 4 LOB; bottom 6th, down 2-0, Chipper singles & later scores, Tex pops up; bottom 9th, 3-3, Tex pops up: no clutch for Tex)
4/7 @COL, 1-2 (Tex 0-3, 1 LOB; top 1st, 1 out, up a run, Tex strands Chipper at 2nd; no clutch for Tex)
4/8 @ COL 3-4 (0-3, 1 BB, 1 K, 2 LOB; top 1st, none out, up a run, runners 1st & 2nd, Tex lines out 4U; no clutch for Tex)
4/14 @ WAS 4-5 (Tex 2-4, 1B, 2B, 1 BB, 1 R, 1 LOB; top 6th, down 5-2, Tex doubles, scores 3rd run; top 8th, down 5-3, Tex singles, is forced at 2nd by Francoeur, who scores 4th run; top 9th, down 5-4, Tex IBB: clutch for Tex)
4/16 @ FLO 5-6 (Tex 1-3, 1B, 1 BB, 1 R, 2 LOB; top 3rd, down 3-1, 1 out, runners 1st & 2nd, Tex GIDP; top 6th, down 4-3, Tex singles, stranded; top 8th, down 6-3, Tex walks, scores 4th run: clutch for Tex)
4/26 @ NYN 3-4 (Tex 1-3, 2B, 1 BB, 1 RBI, 1 K; top 3rd, down 4-1, 2 outs, Tex walks to load bases, Hudson scores 2nd run on WP; top 6th, down 4-2, Tex grounds out to lead off; top 8th, down 4-3, Tex Ks to lead off: no clutch for Tex)
4/30 @ WAS 2-3 (Tex 2-5, 1B, 2B, 1 LOB; top 7th, 1-1, Tex grounds out to lead off; top 9th, 1-1, 1 out, Tex singles, stranded; top 12th, 1-1, Tex doubles to lead off, Prado pinch-runs, scores go-ahead 2nd run: clutch for Tex)
5/8 v SDN 5-4 (Tex 1-4, 1B, 1 BB. 1 RBI, 3 LOB; bottom 1st, down 2-0, 1 on, 2 out, Tex singles home 1st run, stranded; bottom 3rd, down 2-1, 2 on, 2 out, Tex BBs, stranded; bottom 6th, down 4-1, Tex grounds out to lead off; bottom 7th, down 4-3, 1 on, 1 out, Tex grounds out, advances runner to 3rd , who scores tying run on WP;; bottom 9th, 4-4, 2 on, 0 out, Tex grounds out, advances runners to 2nd & 3rd, who scores winning run: clutch for Tex)
5/9 @ PIT 2-3 (Tex 1-3, 1B, 1 BB, 1 R, 1 LOB; top 8th, down 2-1, 2 out, Tex singles, scores tying 2nd run: clutch for Tex)
5/13 @PHI 4-5 (Tex did not play)
5/16 v OAK 3-2 (Tex 0-4, 4 LOB; no clutch for Tex)
5/17 v OAK 4-5 (Tex 2-4, 1B, 2B, 1 R, 1 LOB; bottom 2nd, down 4-0, Tex singles to lead off, stranded; bottom 4th, down 5-0, 1 on, 1 out, Tex pops up; bottom 6th, down 5-1, 1 out, Tex grounds out; bottom 9th, down 5-1, Tex doubles to lead off, scores 2nd run: clutch for Tex)
5/27 @MIL 2-3 (Tex 1-4, 1B, 2 LOB; top 9th, 2-2, 1 on, 0 out, Tex GIDP: no clutch for Tex)
5/28 @ MIL 0-1 (Tex, 1-3, 1B, 1 BB, 1 K, 3 LOB; top 1st, 0-0, 1 on, 2 out, Tex walks, stranded; top 3rd, 0-0, 1 on, 2 out, Tex singles, stranded; top 5th, 0-0, 2 on, 2 out, Tex flies out; top 8th, 0-0, 1 on, 1 out, Tex Ks: no clutch for Tex)
5/30 @ CIN 2-3? (Tex 0-4, 1 RBI, 1 K; top 6th, 0-0, 1 on, 1 out, Tex sac fly RBI for 1st run; top 8th, 2-2, 0 on, 2 out, Tex grounds out; top 11th, 2-2, 0 on, 2 out, Tex grounds out: no clutch for Tex)
5/31 @ CIN 7-8 (Tex 2-6, 1B, HR, 1 R, 3 RBI, 1 K, 5 LOB; top 3rd, down 5-2, 2 on, 0 out, Tex HRs to tie game; top 4th, up 6-5, 2 on 1 out, Tex Ks; top 6th, 6-6, 1 on, 1 out, Tex grounds out FC; top 8th, 6-6, 0 on, 1 out, Tex flies out: no clutch for Tex)
6/3 v FLO 5-4 (Tex 1-3, 2B, 1 BB, 1 R; bottom 8th, down 4-3, 1 on, 0 out, Tex doubles, scores go-ahead run: clutch for Tex)
6/6 v PHI 3-4 (Tex 1-3, 1B, 1BB, 1R, 2 K, 3 LOB; bottom 1st, down 1-0, 1 on, 2 out, Tex Ks; bottom 3rd, down 1-0, 2 on, 2 out, Tex BBs, stranded; bottom 6th, down 1-0, Tex singles to lead off, scores tying run; bottom 7th, up 2-1, 2 on, 1 out, Tex HBP, stranded; bottom 9th, 2-2, 2 on 1 out, Tex Ks: clutch/no clutch ???)
6/12 @ CHN 2-3 (Tex 0-3, 3 BBs, 1 K, 3 LOB; top 1st, 0-0, 1 on, 2 out, Tex grounds out; top 8th, up 2-1, Tex BBs to lead off, stranded; top 9th, 2-2, 1 on, 2 out, Tex IBB, stranded; top 11th, 2-2, 2 on, 2 out, Tex Ks looking: no clutch for Tex)
6/19 @ TEX 4-5 (Tex 1-3, 2B, 1 BB, 2 Rs, 1 K; top 4th, up 1-0, Tex doubles to lead off, scores 2nd run; top 6th, up 2-1, 0 on, 1 out, Tex Ks; top 9th, down 4-2, Tex BBs to lead off, scores 3rd run: clutch for Tex)
6/21 v SEA 5-4 (Tex 1-3, 1B, 2 BBs, 1 RBI, 2 Ks, 2 LOB; bottom 1st, down 3-0, 2 on, 1 out, Tex singles, drives in 1st run, stranded; bottom 3rd, down 3-1, 1 on, 1 out, Tex BBs, stranded; bottom 5th, down 3-1, 1 on, 2 out, Tex Ks; bottom 7th, down 3-1, 1 on, 2 out, Tex Ks; bottom 9th, 4-4, 1 on, 0 out, Tex IBB: no clutch for Tex)
6/24 v MIL 3-4 (Tex 2-4, 2B, HR, 2 Rs, 2 RBIs, 1 K, 1 LOB; bottom 2nd, down 3-0, Tex pops up to lead off; bottom 4th, down 4-0, 1 on, 2 out, Tex Ks; bottom 7th, down 4-0, Tex doubles to lead off, scores 1st run; bottom 9th, down 4-1, 1 on, 0 out, Tex HRs, drives in 2nd & 3rd runs: clutch for Tex)
6/29 @ TOR 0-1 (Tex 0-1, 3 BBs, 1K, 1 LOB; top 6th/8th, Tex IBB: clutch/no clutch ???)
7/6 v HOU 7-6 (Tex 3-7, 2 1Bs, 2B, 2 BBs, 3 RBIs, 1 K, 2 LOB; bottom 3rd, down 5-2, 1 on, 1 out, Tex singles home 3rd run, stranded; bottom 7th, down 6-3, 1 on, 2 out, Tex singles home 4th run, stranded; bottom 17th, 6-6, 3 on, 0 out, Tex singles in winning run: clutch for Tex)
7/9 @ LAN 1-2 (Tex 0-3, 1 LOB; top 7th, down 0-1, 1 on, 2 out, Tex flies out: no clutch for Tex)
7/18 v WAS 7-6 (Tex 1-2, 2B, 2 BBs, 2 Rs, 2 LOB; bottom 2nd, 0-0, Tex doubles to lead off, scores 1st run; bottom 3rd, 2-2, 2 on, 1 out, Tex BBs, scores 5th run; bottom 7th, up 7-5, Tex BBs to lead off, stranded: clutch for Tex)
By keylargo
July 23, 2008 11:21 PM | Link to this
It was mentioned above that cnnsi.com had an article about the trade deadline. The general consensus seemed to be that Tex would be traded right at the deadline. I was pleasantly surprised by what they predicted he would bring - easily besting the two draft choices.
Two things good about trading him are the salary relief - about $5 million - and getting mlb ready or almost ready players instead of draft choices that may NEVER be.
Even though Maddux said he would come to ATL. I don’t think the Braves could justify getting him unless it was a sentimental choice - which isn’t happening.
By David O'Brien
July 23, 2008 11:23 PM | Link to this
Cooper, if Huddy feels a lot better by Friday, I’d not be surprised if Hampton gets the Saturday start. But they’ve got to see how Huddy feels first.
By Kashi
July 23, 2008 11:23 PM | Link to this
Mr. BravesFan79 I agree it was a TERRIBLE roster move by Atlanta Braves over Pena and Javy Lopez. I bet you Javy would be the biggest threat on plate then any of our reserve bench player beside Norton. He has a speed and swing to intimate pitchers. And we would have got something by trading Javy to Yankees or Marlins this week. I have said this millions time and will say it again that we need Tex in our lineup everyday beyond 2008. This guy is 1B gold glove. No know look at it this way but to tell you the truth he has saved lots of runs and games for us. Being Escobar’s first year..he has thrown lots of bad balls at Tex and man he have gloved those balls to save Escobar a lots of time. And Chipper being hurt on and off…We need Tex more than any other teams. He is well worth 18 to 20 M for 6 years. We need to make sure there is one change in our coaching staff and it is a TP. Its time for him to take his fast assssss to Mets.
By TexasBrave
July 23, 2008 11:24 PM | Link to this
Haven’t read all the above posts so if someone has mentioned the following I apologize.
Why not go ahead and skip Jo Jo and start Hampton, who is a ground ball pitcher, in Philly and if Huddy can’t go in his next turn plug in Jo Jo. Jo Jo would probably fair better at the Ted than the band box in Philly.
By N9
July 23, 2008 11:26 PM | Link to this
wow random that my friend is a detailed blogg! nice job on your homework!
By bravos2249
July 23, 2008 11:29 PM | Link to this
McFann
IDK if you’ve seen this but it’s something I found on Mac..lol
[The cameras are always rolling]http://braveslove.blogspot.com/2008/04/cameras-are-always-rolling.html)
By bravos2249
July 23, 2008 11:29 PM | Link to this
McFann
IDK if you’ve seen this but it’s something I found on Mac..lol
The cameras are always rolling
By monty
July 23, 2008 11:35 PM | Link to this
It’s a shame that all those one run losses have taken their toll on this season. If they win half of those losses they are in 1st place. At least I’m pretty sure.
By Robert S
July 23, 2008 11:38 PM | Link to this
TexasBrave, my thinking is that JoJo might get optioned to Richmond if Hampton is activated, as he’s struggled more so than Morton. Morton got no offensive support last night, and only made one real mistake, to Mike Jacobs.
The only way JoJo stays is if Huddy has to go on the DL, which is not as likely as thought, according to DOB’s report.
But like I said, that’s my guess……
By DesiBrave
July 23, 2008 11:44 PM | Link to this
3 days ago on a post I predicted Braves to sweep marlins. Some of you thought I was drunk and few others thought I was out of my senses etc. But for Francouer’s horrible at bat yesterday with bases loaded no out situation Braves could have really swept marlins
Anyways here is my next prediction.
If Chipper is in the lineup Braves will win 2 out of 3 against phillies. If he is hurt then Braves will get swept by phillies.
By Confusedus
July 23, 2008 11:48 PM | Link to this
Confusedus say,”team that neither s—- or get off pot, give fans big hemorrhoid.
By Chop Chop
July 23, 2008 11:55 PM | Link to this
DesiBrave,
If it weren’t for bad things happening, the Braves would win every game.
I have a better prediction for the Phils series:
The Braves will lose two out of three whether Chipper is in there or not.
That’ll give the Braves a 3-3 week against the Fish and Phils, rendering them, uh, basically where they’ve been the last few weeks.
After that, it’s four games with the Cards before the true, real, and no-holds-barred trade deadline.
By kung fooo
July 23, 2008 11:57 PM | Link to this
Confusedus
You are wrong septic breath.
One who will neither s__ or get off pot will get confusedazz.
By TexasBrave
July 24, 2008 12:01 AM | Link to this
Robert S, true Jo Jo is probably the odd man out but I think everything would hinge on how Huddy feels. The Braves will probably wait until Saturday to make a move. If the tightness is gone and there is no doubt that Huddy starts his next turn, then Jo Jo goes down. If, however, they are still not sure by Saturday then either the Braves will do what I mentioned in my last and send down someone else or go ahead and start Jo Jo on Saturday and save Mike just in case Hudson can’t make his turn.
Lets just hope that Huddy is ok and Hampton can make his season debut in a park where we need a ground ball pitcher. I shudder at the possibility of Jo Jo throwing in that park with the way he is pitching.
By Confusedus
July 24, 2008 12:24 AM | Link to this
Kung fool, ‘Confusedus’ say ”squat on ice, makes fool smile with joy”.
By uga-brave
July 24, 2008 12:25 AM | Link to this
DOB,
check out hampton’s career #’s at citizens small park.
if my recollection is right?, and i just got back from veni vedi vichi’s so my recolection is kind of pinot’d.
either way hamp has always pitched well there.
bowa used to cringe when he saw hampton.
By gotigers72
July 24, 2008 12:28 AM | Link to this
Back in the 80s and 90s when I umpired high school baseball and softball, I can’t remember exactly what year, but the girl’s softball rules did an experimental thing to help avoid collisions at first base that worked well, at least in the games I umpired. They had 2 first bases,one in the usual spot in fair territory, and one right next to that one in foul territory. The fielder had to tag the base in fair territory, and the runner tagged the base in foul territory.
Don’t remember how that experiment worked out, but if I would hsve had a vote,it would have stayed that way. I haven’t been to a high school girl’s softball game lately, but I don’t think they use that double first base anymore. But some rec leagues around here use it, especially for the younger girls.
By kung fooo
July 24, 2008 12:35 AM | Link to this
Confusedus
Second condition you describe will also cause you to become confusedazz. Risk of becoming permanent condition is high.
By A-ville Ranger
July 24, 2008 12:36 AM | Link to this
Are any of you coming up here to Asheville NC this weekend for ‘The Bele Chere Festival’? Last year we had 300’000 for the 3 days friday thru sunday.It’s the biggest free outdoor festival in the southeast.This year we’ve got 57 bands for the free festival on 7 stages plus a pay concert at the baseball stadium.
My favorite part is the arts and crafts though.I think we’ve got the best arts community in the south.
If you’ve ever been to downtown Asheville you know there’s not another place like it,certainly not in the southeast.
By uga-brave
July 24, 2008 12:46 AM | Link to this
the blog has finally collapsed on itself.
look i got abused last year over and over again about my opinion of francoeur’s mechanics.
everyone said look at his two out rbi’s and his risp.
all i ever said was look at that swing. front foot lunger, that has zero balance.
you cant hit off your front foot.
in ALL SERIOUSNESS, he cant hit a fastball.
it has nothing to do with his vision. IT has everything to do with his HAND position.
his hands go forward with his stride.
most good hitters hands go back.
quiet hands. look at guys like, HECK ANYONE ELSE .
By Chop Chop
July 24, 2008 12:52 AM | Link to this
2-0, 0.59 ERA for Hampton in 4 career starts at Citizens Bank.
He made three starts there in ‘04 and one in ‘05.
Of course, that Phillies team in ‘04 was a little different. Lieberthal, Thome, Polanco, Bell, Rollins, Burrell, Abreu, and Byrd/Michaels were the main guys in the lineup. Utley played a little over half a season that year. Howard had 39 ABs.
In other words, you’ve got four guys in the lineup now who were on that team.
Utley is 1 for 4 against Hampton in his career.
Howard’s never faced him.
Burrell’s a .133 hitter in 30 ABs, so Hampton owned him.
Rollins is a .222 hitter in 39 ABs against Hampton.
If Hampton can get out of his warm-up okay, let him go out there and start a game against the Phils. Might as well get their money’s worth out of the guy.
By nolie
July 24, 2008 12:59 AM | Link to this
Pirates asking a bit less for Nady?
Market shifts as deadline nears-Heyman, S.I. Com
The word is that the asking price for Pirates outfielder Xavier Nady has “loosened” a tad, and that Pittsburgh seems more interested than before in trading him.
The Pirates were said a couple weeks ago by the New York Post to be seeking “two top prospects” for Nady, who’s having a big year (12 HRs, 56 RBIs, .327), but that seems to have come down a tad. Considering the Pirates have Nady, Jason Bay and Nate McLouth all thriving at the big-league level, and 21-year-old Andrew McCutchen playing well (9 HRs, 37 RBIs, .282) at Class AAA Indianapolis, they would appear to have an opportunity to help themselves in other areas by trading Nady or Bay.
“I think they’ll probably trade Nady but hold onto Bay,” one National League executive opined.
The Rays, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, Diamondbacks and Cardinals are among the teams to have inquired about one or more of the Pirates’ star outfielders. Several teams are seeking a righthanded bat, making Bay and Nady especially desirable.
The Rays need a right-handed hitting outfielder and have the chips to deal. The loss of Hideki Matsui means the Yankees need an outfield bat, too, and like the Mets and Rays, they would also prefer a righthanded hitter.
Mets general manager Omar Minaya, who traded Nady to Pittsburgh in 2006 when he was desperate for a reliever after Duaner Sanchez’s freak shoulder injury, is said to be one Mets person who likes Nady very much. However, the organization’s reluctance to trade its top two prospects — outfielder Fernando Martinez and lefthanded pitcher Jon Niese — could force them to consider acquiring a solid but slightly lesser player, such as Seattle’s Raul Ibanez or Cleveland’s Casey Blake. Teixeira could go … but not for nothing
The secretive Braves aren’t saying whether they’re buyers or sellers. But people around baseball wouldn’t be surprised in the least if there was a deal just before the deadline involving star first baseman Mark Teixeira.
The Braves are apparently trying to gauge their chances to contend now, and that’s understandable since they’re in the unimposing NL East. Even so, their chances don’t look so hot from here, at seven games out and in fourth place. With all the injury problems they’ve had (is Mike Hampton ever coming back?), most baseball people ultimately believe reality will set in and Teixeira will be moved.
The Braves won’t be able to come close to recouping what they gave to Texas last summer to get one year of Teixeira (Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Matt Harrison and Elvis Andrus). But they’d easily beat two draft choices, which is all they get if he leaves as a free agent.
Angels GM Tony Reagins understandably laughed off the absurd report in a Minnesota paper of third-base prospect Brandon Wood and utilityman Robb Quinlan being the whole package to go to Atlanta for Teixeira as the babble of “bloggers.” (good line, though some bloggers actually do great work).
As former Oakland GM Sandy Alderson once said about a rumored trade of Jose Canseco (back when he was a 40-40 man for the A’s and before he became a disgrace) to the Yankees for something like Roberto Kelly, Mark Hutton and Sam Militello, that package doesn’t rent Teixeira for a weekend. Someone will probably wind up renting Teixeira for the final two months, and it may yet wind up being the Angels. But it’s going to take a lot more than that. Sherrill attracting a crowd
While talk of a trade involving Mariners pitcher Erik Bedard has dissipated with each of Bedard’s aches and pains, one of the players traded in the Bedard deal, Orioles closer George Sherrill, could still be dealt.
The Marlins, Dodgers, Cardinals, Phillies and Brewers were among teams scouting the Orioles game on Tuesday night. The St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported that the Cardinals were interested, and the Baltimore Sun reported interest from the Brewers in Sherrill, one of the All-Star heroes who’s done a nice job in Baltimore (29 of 35 in saves, 3.89 ERA). Sherrill is known for having decent stuff but exceptional guts.
The relief market looks a lot stronger than the starting market now. But a couple executives with relievers to sell expressed annoyance that the Nationals dealt Jon Rauch to the Diamondbacks for second-base prospect Emilio Bonifacio, claiming it wasn’t enough for Rauch. “I was surprised that’s all Washington got,” one AL executive said. However, Bonifacio isn’t bad (one exec likened him to former big leaguer Delino DeShields, who was a top stolen base threat for years), and if anyone knows the D’backs’ prospects, it’s Nats assistant GM Mike Rizzo. Bonifacio is said to be a fine defender with excellent speed.
The top of a strong relief market includes Brian Fuentes, Huston Street and Damaso Marte, along with Sherrill. A Denver Post report says that the Rockies have asked for Ian Kennedy, Clay Buchholz, Wade Davis or Niese in return for Fuentes.
Other viable relievers who could be dealt include Ron Mahay (though word is the Royals would have to be “overwhelmed”), David Weathers, John Grabow, Cla Meredith, Will Ohman, Mike Gonzalez and two more from Baltimore (Chad Bradford and Jamie Walker). Washburn talks may stall
If the Yankees can get Jarrod Washburn and get rid of Kei Igawa at the same time, that would be a double coup for them. But the finances may be trickier than first thought to pull of such a deal. And Washburn has a limited no-trade clause and can veto a deal to the Yankees barring an extension, which is another complication. Around the Majors
• With Jorge Posada likely relegated to DH duty if he returns, the Yankees are looking for catching. Some possibilities include Rod Barajas, Gerald Laird, Paul Lo Duca and Miguel Olivo.
• The Twins, Giants and Dodgers have shown some interest in the Rangers’ Hank Blalock.
• Yankees minor league-shortstop Alberto Gonzalez might become an option for the Dodgers if they can’t land the Pirates’ Jack Wilson or another more established shortstop like David Eckstein.
• Marlins pitching coach Mark Wiley must be a magician. He is doing a terrific job with the shocking Marlins, who won’t go away. Rick VandenHurk looked like a new man in beating the Braves 4-0 on Tuesday night.
• Astros GM Ed Wade certainly has the ability to surprise. And confound. His trade for Randy Wolf seems to suggest he thinks his team is a contender. Perhaps someone should next offer Wade a clue.
• Freddy Garcia will hold his pitching showcase Aug. 5 in Miami. Both New York teams have interest, among many others. He is hoping to pitch in the majors in September.
By uga-brave
July 24, 2008 1:13 AM | Link to this
just watched a rerun of generation kill.
probably the best thing hbo has done sans the soparnos.
people if you have HBO check it out. it is that good.
if you liked band of brothers, you will absolutely LOVE this.
By David O'Brien
July 24, 2008 1:18 AM | Link to this
It rained harder on my drive back to the hotel than it’s ever rained. In the history of earth. Ever.
It rained more in 20 minutes than it’s rained in two years back in Georgia.
It rained so hard … OK, I think you get it.
By N9
July 24, 2008 1:26 AM | Link to this
welcome to the sunshine state DOB!
By uga-brave
July 24, 2008 1:26 AM | Link to this
a-ville,
asheville is awesome. DOB will appreciate this, the smashing pumpkins did a thing there last year and we went. what a great time and a great town.
it has character.
By uga-brave
July 24, 2008 1:33 AM | Link to this
DOB, did it rain like the movie magnollia?
now that would of been raining hard.
By A-ville Ranger
July 24, 2008 1:52 AM | Link to this
Good post Nolie,Here’s more thinking on why in my mind The Angels would be our best bet if trading Tex.
They are a team in contetion for the WS and they really nead a big bat in their lineup.
I also believe their GM Tory Reagins would think having Tex in LA for the balance of the season would increase their chances of signing him during off-season.
They are one of only 4 or 5 of the biggest players for prime free agents in general.
They may be the best team for Tex and he just might grow a pair and realize Boras isn’t his legal guardian and that he could instruct Scott to push for a fair deal with The Angels.
By uga-brave
July 24, 2008 1:53 AM | Link to this
so while everyone was talking b’q nobody brought up FAT MATT’S rib shack.
a little history lesson.
fellini’s and its cuban partner, were all friends.
fat matt’s is somewhat of a spinoff.
matt has had all the NBA guys there forever.
they used to deliver to MJ all the time when he is here. barkley comes in all the time.
DOB,
next time you ride your bike up there ask for WES JAMES. TELL him a stupid half drunk, braves, georgia bulldog fan that is married to a penn state fan wants to buy you lunch.
it should be gratis.
By David O'Brien
July 24, 2008 1:54 AM | Link to this
Yes, frogs are falling from the sky here on Hollywood Beach.
Generation Kill kills. Awesome show. Sundays are great TV again — Generation Kill on HBO and Mad Men on AMC, with season premiere of the latter this Sunday.
By jed
July 24, 2008 1:58 AM | Link to this
Oh what’ll you do now, my D.O.B? Oh, what’ll you do now with your M.I.B? I’m a-goin’ back out ‘fore Cox starts a-fallin’, I’ll walk to the depths of center field bawlin’, Where the braves fans are many and their hands are all empty, Where the francouers and hamptons are flooding their waters, Where the home in the Teddy meets with newfound derision, Where the general manager’s face is always well hidden, Where losing is ugly, where the pennants are forgotten, Where black is the player, where none is the number, And I’ll tell it and think it and speak it and blog it, And reflect it from the Cow so the hoopleheads can slog it, Then I’ll stand on the dugout until I start sinkin’, But I’ll know they’ve moved Tex before I start singin’, And it’s a hard, it’s a hard, it’s a hard, it’s a hard, It’s a hard rain’s a-gonna fall.
By bobby's cox
July 24, 2008 1:58 AM | Link to this
uga-brave
great analysis on Frenchy. I think you’re right….we all agree. God help him.
wow…just saw the news on hudson….in the midst of hampton coming back, hudson’s holding his forearm?
This story has turned full circle as hampton is finally manning up like you all want him to and is asking for the rock.
If this isn’t the most dramatic season one team has experienced in the history of baseball, please inform me.
McFann with great victory comes great sacrifice
Very clever. Very true. Amazing.
By bobby's cox
July 24, 2008 2:04 AM | Link to this
DOB
Sounds like you’re in the middle of a horror film with what transpired tonite and the rain.
get the he!! out of florida. The elements are consuming our team… we don’t need our beat writer to go down too.
By nolie
July 24, 2008 2:05 AM | Link to this
On the Townes tune…as someone who loves a ton of Townes influenced music and the whole Americana/roots rock genre in general (Earle, Lucinda, Uncle Tupleo, Whiskeytown, etc), what’s a good start in listening to Van Zandt himself?RHobbs
his 1969 eponymous album Townes Van Zandt is as good as it gets
By bravos2249
July 24, 2008 2:10 AM | Link to this
Also considering Hampton hasn’t pitched in FOREVER…wouldn’t it be better to have him go up against the Phillies?
I mean what are they going to do look at his “last game” pitched…it’s a chance because he could get roughed up but I’d say considering Jojo’s recent issues…I’d go with him.
Huddy isn’t suppose to start until Tuesday…and either way if Huddy would have to miss his start, Jojo and Hampton would both pitch vs the Cards anyway.
So there’s no big difference if Hampton pitches Sat or not.
By uga-brave
July 24, 2008 2:12 AM | Link to this
the marlins infield is going to have 4 players hit 25 hr’s each.
there is a outside chance that no one on the braves roster will hit 25 dingers.
THINK ABOUT THAT.
our pitching has been better then good.
said it all off season, the n.l. east has the best middle infielders in baseball.
1 ramirez, uggla 2 rollins, utley 3reyes, castillo 4escobar, johnsonsame division, five great player’s three good ones.
By Quack Quack
July 24, 2008 2:16 AM | Link to this
I’m not totally opposed to moving Chipper to first, leading off Blanco and playing Lillibridge at ss and Escobar at third.DHD
there is no way on God’s green earth that Chipper is moving to first next year.
By Coach ( Lets Go Braves In 2009)
July 24, 2008 2:18 AM | Link to this
at any rate, the Braves are well justified in wanting three top prospects for Mark Teixeira. If Will Ohman is included in the trade, we are talking four or five players in return.
Which is why there is still 30 to 40 percent odds that Tex and Ohman may not be traded at all.
By Quack Quack
July 24, 2008 2:21 AM | Link to this
Blanco,cf…Escobar, 3b…Chipper,1b….Bay, lf….McCann,c….Francoeur,rf….Johnson,2b….Lillibridge,ssDHD
you could try to be at least vaguely realistic, it ain’t fantasy baseball and that lineup is never gonna happen. what a waste of blog space
By Kevin
July 24, 2008 2:23 AM | Link to this
DOB how many episodes of Generation Kill have aired already? I think I’m ready to give it a chance.
By bravos2249
July 24, 2008 2:33 AM | Link to this
**IDK if last year before Tex or 2006 but some writer/reporter asked JS about moving Chipper to 1st and if I remember correctly he said something like:
“Chipper’s already made enough sacrifices for this organization and we won’t ask him to learn a new position again”
Remeber guys he’s a natural SS…a natural third basman per se probably wouldn’t have to “learn” 1st, because they’ve played there alot**
By BA
July 24, 2008 2:37 AM | Link to this
DOB, do you think there’s a chance that IF they move Teixeira, my man Canizares would get a call up? Or maybe Infante? Freaking Thorman? I’d vote for Canizares. All the guy has done all year long is hit.
By uga-brave
July 24, 2008 2:44 AM | Link to this
so explain to me why we would trade a guy like will ohman?
look i was skeptical when we got him. we let mahay go in the same roll.
ohman has been great. so if we could sign him for, mike remlinger money the braves should do it.
think about it?
next year, gonzo closing. soriano, moylan, and ohman seting up.
two lefty’s and two righty’s in the back end of the bullpen.
that is pretty darn good. lights out.
well then again, we have to get a lead first.
THAT HAS BEEN THE PROBLEM.
By kung fooo
July 24, 2008 2:45 AM | Link to this
DHD
and to complete the lineup, let’s move Kelly back to LF, McCann to 2B so he can play 162 games, Francoeur to C so that arm can be utilized, call up Scott Thorman to play LF since Chipper proved it was so easy to do, and see if the Dodgers would take JO Jo, Chuckie and Charlie Morton(we’ve got some solid vets) for Andruw so we can have some defense again in CF.
Just a few tweaks and we are competing again!!
By CharlieAlphaBravo
July 24, 2008 2:50 AM | Link to this
Did anyone notice “He Who Shall Not Be Named” touching Huddy’s elbow after he came out tonight? Are they crazy??? Don’t let him touch it!?!
By Quack Quack
July 24, 2008 2:58 AM | Link to this
I brought this up when everyone was talking about Francoeur as a great clutch hitter as if he had an innate ability to hit well in the clutch. But where are those people now?Shaun
ah but did he ever hit between .500 and .667 in clutch Shaun? No? well obviously he just wasn’t a clutch hitter even then. Those(not yours) were some of the funniest stuff I ever read.
By Quack Quack
July 24, 2008 3:07 AM | Link to this
I agree that Frenchy probably shouldn’t be batting 6th. But on the flip side of that who exactly are you going to bat there? KJ has been almost just as bad as Frenchy lately so whom exactly do you put there?Knowitall
hey, don’t try using any of that there logic stuff on this board. Totally unacceptable guy
By Quack Quack
July 24, 2008 4:19 AM | Link to this
wow random that my friend is a detailed blogg! nice job on your homework!
Too bad all that work was wasted on a ridiculous concept that a hitter should succeed 67% of the time in clutch situations.As Moby replied, that concept is so wrong as to be ludicrous.I ‘m not surprised by such idiocy from N8, but somewhat disconcerted to see it from Random. Sigh
By nolie
July 24, 2008 4:34 AM | Link to this
DOB how many episodes of Generation Kill have aired already? I think I’m ready to give it a chance.Kevin
The first two out of seven have aired. I liked it a good bit too, although not as much as BoB. Some very good dialog & one-liners in it.The first two can be found and downloaded as bit torrents if you are into that.
By Bravo Nam
July 24, 2008 6:00 AM | Link to this
Frenchie
I think Frenchie might be regretting turning down the Braves offer made a while back…just about now.
Guys like Smoltz, Chipper and McCann have shown their genuine commitment and loyalty to the Braves by consistently accepting below market contracts. Chipper even reworked his contract to help free up the Braves’ budget.
Although Andruw followed the Boras line this last time, he too negotiated a below market contract a number of years back to stay with the Braves.
Even the maligned BC has time and time again accepted below market contracts to stay with the Braves…particularly at the peak of the Braves’ success.
I think if Francoeur wants to win back the hearts and minds of Braves’ fans as well as the respect of his detractors, he should approach the Braves and get a contract done now…with a hometown discount…and request a return to AA until he gets his game back in shape. This would also be a smart financial move on his part- he gets guaranteed money now (in case his form doesn’t return), he takes the pressure and spotlight off himself so he can focus on his game, he has a better chance of improving his game and getting a bigger contract later on, and he again becomes a sponsorship darling through improved performance and winning back support of the public.
By Mike Hampton's vajayjay (Run Heap Run!)
July 24, 2008 7:02 AM | Link to this
The Phillies will absolutely devour JoJo if he pitches Saturday. As crazy as it sounds I’d rather see what Hammy’s got than to trot JoJo out there to get pounded. Hopefully Huddy will be ok and Mikey can make it to Saturday without getting a hang nail.
By Off Topic
July 24, 2008 7:51 AM | Link to this
At what point does the AJC do something about the Falcons blog? I wrote to Julia Wallace a year ago about the infrequent updates. She said it would be discussed. There seemed to be an improvement. However, unlike EVERY OTHER BLOG on the ajc, commenting is open for a couple of hours and then closed. OR like the most recent one, it never opens at all. Pathetic. This has to be Wyche, right? When will someone at the AJC demand better performance from this guy? I would have posted this on the Falcons blog, but, of course I CAN’T.
By chuckw/deadjournalist
July 24, 2008 8:02 AM | Link to this
It seems as though the baseball press, as well as the stable-minded bloggers here, continue to question whether or not the Braves will be buyer or sellers.
Couldn’t they be both?
If the Braves decide to trade Texeria and/or Ohman, could they not also look to acquire someone like Casey Blake? His ability to play first, third and a corner outfield spot surely wouldn’t hurt - assuming the price was right.
Speaking of Ohman, while again, many people feel he would be the most likely to be dealt, it seems that there might be more of a reason to keep him and trade Texeria. Here’s my rationale, as flawed as it may be:
If they retain Ohman, and offer him arbitration, the Braves would either receive Type A compensation or have to pay him around $3mil next season. And while it might be hard to initially justify that salary within the Braves budget, going into the off-season with Ohman, Gonzales and the hopefully healthy Moylan and Soriano would allow the organization to focus its attention on improving the offense, and to a less degree, the starting rotation.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but if the Braves were to not trade Texeria, and not offer him arbitration, they would get no picks in return (see Andruw Jones last year). While Texeria’s production isn’t easily replaced, the Braves would almost assuredly get a major league, starting position player as part of their return. That person’s production shouldn’t prevent them from being any less competitive than they are now.
For the next two months, the Braves do have enough pitching to keep them in most games. Adding another bat, like Blake, might help fortify the roster enough to keep them in the race.
Of course, with Chipper’s hamstring injury, the complexity of the situation might be amplified. But lest anyone forgets, the division looked wrapped up last year until the Mets imploded. All it might take is one 10 out of 12 winning streak and the Braves are right there again.
That’s a big “might” considering the last couple years, but it also isn’t totally unreasonable.
By Salty
July 24, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this
It rained harder on my drive back to the hotel than it’s ever rained. In the history of earth. Ever.
Noah might disagree! LOL! The frogs, probably not!
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 8:42 AM | Link to this
As for McGriff. Similar to Tex. While his post-season “numbers” aren’t that bad, I don’t really remember any BIG hits by the Crime Dog. I remember a LONG HR against Philly (in a loss) in 93.
So because you don’t remember any “big” hits, he didn’t contribute in the post-season? And how do you define “big hits”? I’ve made this argument before: What about, say, a two-run homer in the first inning? That may or may not get in the highlights, but I’d say that’s a big hit for the team.
*I do, however, remember big hits from Lemke, Lonnie, Justice, Devereaux, Polonia, and even a big Sac-Fly from Jerry Willard. *
Right. A blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then. Seriously, plenty of rather unspectacular major leaguers have gotten hits and sac flies. It happens all the time. Should we assume that these guys have a knack for coming through with big hits more than Fred McGriff because maybe we remember big hits from them and not McGriff?
Careful TNJeff, I said that 2 weeks ago and the response from Shaun and others was that record is standard for most teams when scoring 3 runs or less.
Well, often times when people point out things like this not realizing they aren’t really making any sort of point. Like when the Yankees had Rivera and Wetteland, you’d hear a commentator say, “The Yankees’ record is such-and-such when leading after 8 innings. Isn’t that impressive?” Or two or three years ago Elias gave the Braves’ impressive record when both Chipper and Andruw homer in the same game. Is it really saying anything? Most teams have a good record when leading after 8 innings. Most halfway decent teams are going to have a good record when two of their best players homer. So please forgive me if I think it’s somewhat pointless to point out that the Braves have a poor record when scoring 3 or fewer runs.
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 9:06 AM | Link to this
They’re still here Payne. It’s just that, if a player has an innate ability to hit, does a slump mean there is no such thing as an innate ability to hit? I believe it was you who stressed during AJ’s rut that a player is neither as bad as his worst slump nor as good as his best hot streak. But now apparently a player in his worst slump is proof that a specific skill simply doesn’t exist. I suppose the search for truth continues…
The simplest way I know to answer the question of whether clutch hitting is actually a skill, is to find a player (who has a meaningful sample of plate appearances in several situations) who consistently performs significantly better in clutch situations than he does overall. So far I haven’t found such a player. And judging by the lack of response when I brought this up twice, I’m guessing no one else has either.
Also, intuitively the concept does not make sense. Every plate appearance in the majors is pretty pressure-filled. Sure, probably some more than others but seems to me a player who has reached the big leagues wouldn’t feel so much pressure in one situation over another that they are able to perform in one but not another.
So I guess I don’t view it as clutch hitting is an imaginary skill. I view it as any baseball player with what it takes to reach the majors, probably has the ability to overcome pressure. Sure there are people who are and who aren’t clutch. But the people who aren’t are also the people who aren’t in the majors, or even past A-ball or Double-A. I’m thinking, you make it to Double-A or Triple-A, you are probably capable of overcoming any pressure you may feel in a big plate apperances.
By Will
July 24, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this
I cant believe Chipper injured his leg again. No Way! I just never in a million years saw that coming.
By monty
July 24, 2008 9:16 AM | Link to this
Anybody seriously thinking of Chipper moving to first needs to quit it. How many times a game do you see Tex catch a ball and sprint to first to beat the runner? At least 2-4 times a night. The last thing Chipper needs is to sprint to first, it seems that’s what caused the problem last night.
What Chipper needs is what we used to have playing back yard ball in our neighborhood, A PinchRunner who would run from home to first for the batter.
By Jeff R
July 24, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this
chuckw, Chipper always complicates matters because he’s so injury prone. I realize the team has him under contract through 2009, but now is the time to find the next generation 3rd sacker. A team can’t invest so much in a player whose on-field time is so unpredictable.
As to lightening striking and the Mets and Phils imploding - anything can happen, certainly. But if I were in the Braves’ executive suite, I’d be making a hard-eyed assessment of the team’s chances of overtaking either or both of the aforementioned teams. Given the Braves hot and cold play, and their horrible road record, I’d opt to move Super Tex and Ohman if the right value is offered in return. It’s becoming more apparent that this team needs some rethinking and overhaul. I can’t believe that the brass is senseless to that reality.
By DesiBrave
July 24, 2008 9:22 AM | Link to this
Last year on this day Phillies were 5 games out of the first place and they won the division in the end. The reason was they had faith in their team and didn’t become sellers. I want Mr Wren to have faith in Braves hitters. Send Francouer the weak link to AA and then get a solid hitter to help Chipper, Teix and Mac and post season here we come !!!
By 22oz
July 24, 2008 9:24 AM | Link to this
DOB, this may seem like an oddball question, but i have to ask. Are you around Jerome Jurenovich much during interviews? He seems to be kinda pushy with his questions, not letting anyone else ask anything. Bobby looked p** at him last night. I know we’re only seeing small bits of the interview when he asks questions, but still, Morton looked terrified the night before last to talk to him. Our Katy Temple seems to be a little less pushy with her questions.
By Mike Hampton's Vajayjay (Run Heap Run!)
July 24, 2008 9:26 AM | Link to this
Will
I know, right? Next they’ll tell us Mike Hampton will pitch again. The apocalypse is near!
By Marc
July 24, 2008 9:39 AM | Link to this
This is DOB’s idea of a hard-hitting interview? Asking a journeyman player if it’s the manager’s fault? Did you expect him to say, yeah, Bobby sucks? How ridiculous is that?
As for him going to Pepperdine, when did that school become synonymous with intellectuals? Just because he used a word that 90% of the population other than ballplayers knows?
DesiBrave,
You really are living in la la land.
By Big Easy
July 24, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this
Yeah, 22oz, Braves Live! is much better when Jurenovich is in the studio and OKT is in the field. She never seems to have it together in the studio, like she is extremely uncomfortable. But in the field, she is great, and her interviews seem well-handled.
Just my 2 cents, though.
~E~
By SherryinVA
July 24, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this
I hope Chipper doesn’t go on the DL! I purchased tickets three months ago to see them play the Cardinals. I was so excited to get to see Chipper, Tex for the first time, Glavine back in a Braves uniform, Smoltz pitch again. We’re driving 6 1/2 hours and I hope we get to see at least one of them!!!
By MacDaddy
July 24, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this
Perhaps it is time for Chipper to think about becoming a DH in the American league. He could bring good trade value. I know he and the Braves organization would prefer seeing him retire as a Brave but there comes a time in life when adjustments have to be made due to injuries and getting older. His days with playing championship play with the Braves organization is fading slowly but surely.
By timthebrave
July 24, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this
In my opinion there are too many games left with the phillies, mets, and marlins to say that the season is done. This team is not as bad as their record and the teams in front of them have serious flaws as well. Need to play better in one run games and need to put it to the Phils this weekend. I refuse to give up. 6 games out is not impossible to catch up. Do they have to play a lot better than they have? Obviously…It can and will be done. What? What’s that you ask? Oh yes, I do love kool aid. Go Braves!
By Dadgum
July 24, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this
“dock that man a days pay for napping on the job”.
“Ms.Rudolph,Ms.Rudolph, can you tell me what happened to the tarantula?” “no! but if you don’t bring me that turkey you will see him again”
Just a couple hilarious lines from some funny guys that can play over to the Braves woes. Name them within 15 minutes of this post and claim one ATTABOY.
Rock on…..hint-2nd quote from a comedian, 1st quote “man” used to be politically correct.
By N9
July 24, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this
SherryinVA
bad timing on your tix. You will miss chipper,smoltz,glavine, and tex might be traded. So come on by and see your 2008 minor league team or better yet just drive to richmond its closer to you!!!!
By Will
July 24, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this
MacDaddy, The problem with Chipper playing DH is have you not noticed that he hurts himself 95% of the time running the bases???
By Will
July 24, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this
Timthebrave, have you happened to watch the last SIX games with the Phillies. They always kick Braves a* up in Philly too let alone the double sweep in Turner Field.
By Lee in S GA
July 24, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this
On the radio last night Chip and Pete bought up this theory. With 61 games remaining the teams which make up the N.L. division will be playing each other a total of 24 times in games.
They stated that the Braves would automatically have to win these 24 games in order just to keep the same pace of remaining 6 games behind. The other 37 games would have to actually be the ones they make ground up on to win the division.
Not impossible; however not likely.
By Lew
July 24, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this
Quack Quack-Dude, I don’t know what SLG %, OPS+ or Badabing Francoeur had in the clutch the last couple years and I am in full realization that he is at fault for the Braves’ season, the rise in gas prices, the Housing Crisis and the fact the unemployment rate is going up quickly (hey-the disparity between the leagues is probably his doing too). However, he led ALL OF BASEBALL (including Pujols) in two out RBI’s in 06-07.
While maybe not conforming to your perception or expectations of what clutch hitting is, before his current slump, he was The Man to have up in those situations. This is also why I, for one, refuse to give up on the guy. He’s done it before-he can do it again.
By Mike
July 24, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this
I say trade Tex as long as we get some good young players. He has not been a difference maker and we will have to spend a lot of money on the draft picks. Trade for good young kids who have already been paid their large signing bonuses. We have that stud 1B in the minors who will be ready for next year. We will still be able to compete the rest of the year with or without Tex. Trade him to the highest bidder!!!!
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this
Regarding Maddux:
I read somewhere that he would prefer the West Coast but if a team with a chance wanted him, he would go East. Who knows?
I suppose it wouldn’t be a bad move for the Braves if they don’t have to give up much and don’t have to pay much but I doubt Maddux would make too much of a difference.
His ERA is slightly about league average. His ERA at Petco is 2.51. Away from Petco it’s 6.02! He’s probably not as bad as that 6.02 indicates but I seriously doubt he would make a difference to the Braves.
But again he’s probably still not an awful pitcher and he provides innings. So if the Braves could get him for virtually nothing, I suppose it wouldn’t be a terrible move. If nothing else, maybe it shows the team that the front office still believes they can win.
By SherryinVA
July 24, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this
N9
You’re right would be closer to see the exact same thing and would save money in the process!!! The last time we went to Atlanta in July ‘06 didn’t get to see Chipper, he went on the DL and we watched them get swept by the Mutts. Got to see Glavine, only in the wrong uniform!! Hopefully this time they will at least win a game!!!!
By Lew
July 24, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this
MacDaddy-The problem with Chipper becoming a DH is that he still has to run to first base. THAT is what caused his hamstring injury last night, NOT playing defense.
By MAV
July 24, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this
Please just let Hampton start on Saturday or anybody else, i can’t take another start by Jojo. The guy can’t figure it out. He needs to be bak in the minors. Hell let Buddy start instead. I say NO MORE JOJO!
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this
Lee in S GA, well, that’s not exactly true. Yes, it would be extremely helpful for the Braves to win the games against the teams ahead of them in the NL East race. But it’s conceivable for them to win it without winning all of those games.
The Braves could help themselves immensely just by winning maybe 40 or so of their remaining games. They don’t have to necessarily beat this team this many times or that team that many times. If they win around 40 of their games, they’ll put themselves in a good position.
By brent a.
July 24, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this
*The simplest way I know to answer the question of whether clutch hitting is actually a skill, is to find a player (who has a meaningful sample of plate appearances in several situations) who consistently performs significantly better in clutch situations than he does overall. So far I haven’t found such a player. And judging by the lack of response when I brought this up twice, I’m guessing no one else has either. *
Even in your “simplest way” to find an answer, you have chosen your own definition for what a clutch player is. That’s part of the problem in having the discussion in the first place. One guy creates a definition that fits the argument he can make. While someone else creates different criteria, becuase it allows them to prove their point.
For the most part, I don’t think people try and define a clutch player as someone who is “significantly better” in the clutch than they are the rest of the time.
But, there are some players who definitely seem to have a knack for “falling short” in key situations.
Two years ago, when people were hotly debating Francoeur and LaRoche, people pointed out that while Francoeur seemed to step up in big situations, LaRoche seemed to shrink in those moments.
That’s not to say that Francoeur’s performance was significantly better in late innings than it was the rest of the game; however, it definitely was worth noting that despite his poor OBP, etc., he did have two, HUGE, ninth inning homers in just the first 6 weeks of the 2006 season that led directly to Braves’ wins.
That is part of the reason why people liked Francoeur so much early in his career, he seemed to have a flair for the dramatic, and people felt confident that he could make something happen in tough situations. LaRoche, not so much.
Reggie Jackson hit 3 home runs in one World Series game in 1978.
Barry Bonds, the all-time home run leader, had a history of post-season failure, before finally getting a single taste of post-season success in 2002.
Whether a statistical sampling bares it out, or not, there are some players who know how to step up and embrace the big moment, while other’s cower.
While I’m not going to argue that there are lower-tier players that are “significantly” better late in games than the rest of the game; I have witnessed players that have a penchant for stepping up late in games, while others buckle under the pressure.
By brent a.
July 24, 2008 11:05 AM | Link to this
*The simplest way I know to answer the question of whether clutch hitting is actually a skill, is to find a player (who has a meaningful sample of plate appearances in several situations) who consistently performs significantly better in clutch situations than he does overall. So far I haven’t found such a player. And judging by the lack of response when I brought this up twice, I’m guessing no one else has either. *
Even in your “simplest way” to find an answer, you have chosen your own definition for what a clutch player is. That’s part of the problem in having the discussion in the first place. One guy creates a definition that fits the argument he can make. While someone else creates different criteria, becuase it allows them to prove their point.
For the most part, I don’t think people try and define a clutch player as someone who is “significantly better” in the clutch than they are the rest of the time.
But, there are some players who definitely seem to have a knack for “falling short” in key situations.
Two years ago, when people were hotly debating Francoeur and LaRoche, people pointed out that while Francoeur seemed to step up in big situations, LaRoche seemed to shrink in those moments.
That’s not to say that Francoeur’s performance was significantly better in late innings than it was the rest of the game; however, it definitely was worth noting that despite his poor OBP, etc., he did have two, HUGE, ninth inning homers in just the first 6 weeks of the 2006 season that led directly to Braves’ wins.
That is part of the reason why people liked Francoeur so much early in his career, he seemed to have a flair for the dramatic, and people felt confident that he could make something happen in tough situations. LaRoche, not so much.
Reggie Jackson hit 3 home runs in one World Series game in 1978.
Barry Bonds, the all-time home run leader, had a history of post-season failure, before finally getting a single taste of post-season success in 2002.
Whether a statistical sampling bares it out, or not, there are some players who know how to step up and embrace the big moment, while other’s cower.
While I’m not going to argue that there are lower-tier players that are “significantly” better late in games than the rest of the game; I have witnessed players that have a penchant for stepping up late in games, while others buckle under the pressure.
Let me ask. Did you watch Kirk Gibson in the 1984 and 1988 World Series?
That guy stepped up and had two, huge, clutch homers - one in each series. Your computer may not like it, but those were clutch homers. By hitting two big homers, in his only two World Series appearances, Gibson gets the nod as a “clutch player”, like it or not.
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
Lew, I agree with you that Francoeur will come out of it and have a solid career.
But I don’t know if there will be a point where I want Francoeur at the plate instead of someone like Pujols or even someone like McCann. I’ll trust somebody’s talent (as indicated by their overall numbers) over what someone has or hasn’t done in clutch situations.
By opie south
July 24, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this
If Chipper is down for any time see if Arizona will bite on this trade. Tex and Frenchy for Conor Jackson and Mark Reynolds. Arizona has a third baseman they like to replace Reynolds. Bring up Anderson. No power in the outfield but none there now but look at the speed with Blanco, Kotsay, and Anderson with Brandon Jones brought up as a back up. Could be exciting besides Frenchy is not hitting home runs anyway. Jackson and Reynolds are both young and good to build with. I think the Braves would actually have a better chance of winning as attitude of the team may change.
By N9
July 24, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this
MAV Hell let Buddy start instead. I say NO MORE JOJO!
mav where have u been the last two games buddy pitched? he had era in one something now its at four something…ummm no..also were giving jojo experience. How would he feel if he gets bummped by a worthless reliever. He is still young.
By Serge45
July 24, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this
I think now is a decent time to mention just how asinine the DH rule is. There are so many ways to attack it, and so few to defend it, other than tradition. AL teams can budget and prepare to take on the extra salary of a guy who will play 150 games for them, meanwhile come the World Series the NL teams trot out their best backup for 3-4 games. The AL teams can attract guys like Pizza, Bonds, or even a Chipper once their bodies keep them from playing in the field everyday. It’s funny, the AL dominance is mentioned in the All-Star game and World Series, but nobody mentions the fact that each AL team has one more everyday player than the NL teams.
By TexasBrave
July 24, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this
DOB last night in a FOX interview Blanco gave Terry credit for helping him with his foot work at the plate. I know a lot of people want to place some blame on TP for the Braves hitting woes but the majority of the blame has to go to the hitters themselves.
In your interview TP talked about having an idea before coming to the plate. To me that means looking for your pitch, the one you would like to hit the most at least for the first or second strike. To me it doesn’t seem that Frenchy is even listening to TP because if he had he’d been out of this funk long ago.
In my opionion Frenchy’s pride/ego is getting in the way of his and the teams success.
By Doc Holliday
July 24, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this
Shaun
Maddux has done well in his last 10 games, I think he struggled against 2-3 teams in his las 10 outings, the rest were pretty good starts. It would be a good pick up, but then again, if hampton comes up for good, there is no need to get maddux
By DAP
July 24, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this
lew I am in full realization that he is at fault for the Braves’ season, the rise in gas prices, the Housing Crisis and the fact the unemployment rate is going up quickly
sounds like jeff francouer is bizarro david wright. he is the anti-wright. he aint wright, he’s wrong.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 24, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this
Shaun and Lew,
I’ve ripped on JF for some time now, and some of my criticism is not directed at him so much as the way he’s been used in the lineup.
For the most part I’m with Shaun about “clutch” players. If somebody is significantly better with the game on the line, does that mean he’s dogging it during “meaningless” ABs?
To the point on Frenchy. His OPS with 2 outs and RISP since 2005 are as follows:
1.057, .760, .902, .662
In other words, there’s no pattern, unless you think it’s significant that he’s been terrific in odd years and mediocre at best (for a middle of the order hitter) in even. BTW, he has about the same number of plate appearances in the 05/08 and 06/07.
And yet he has slightly less than 300 ABs in those “clutch” situations through his career. That’s not a huge number to judge a player’s career, especially one with such glaring holes in his game. The way I see it, the jury’s out on him to the degree that we don’t know if he’s going to eventually develop into a solid major leaguer, or even a star like Jermaine Dye (whose early career numbers are similar).
What I can say is that he’s far from a polished player and I still believe he could benefit from either some time in the minors, some sort of platoon or part-time playing arrangement in the majors, and a move to the bottom of the order where his inconsistency won’t be so greatly exposed.
By DesiBrave
July 24, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this
You are right Shaun.., They don’t need to win all those 24 games…, You are right that winning around 40 not necessarily those 24 is good enough.
Lee just don’t believe Chip .., We all know he
By Doc Holliday
July 24, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this
Is it true that Hampton is pitching on Saturday against the phillies?
Read something about Hudsons elbow……….says that he doesnt thinks he wil miss his next start………any updates on that?
What about Chipper………his didnt look that bad either…….will he miss the whole series against phillies?………..well at least there is Prado or Infante to cover for him………..its not like we have to insert Orr or Woodward.
By Renegator
July 24, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this
Question of the day:
Bottom of the 9th - winning run is in scoring position with two outs. In other words - the game is on the line. Who would you rather have come to the plate?
Kelly Johnson or Jeff Francoeur?
By cbt
July 24, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this
How many people think we need to get a conditioning coach that can help this team get past all these pulled muscles and tweeked arms ect. This is p** pour stretching and poor workout programs that is causing these guy’s to get hurt. Get rid of this sorry GM and Managers who have not produced anything but a below average team for three years. When they got rid of Leo is exactlly when it started. Sorry but Atlanta fans deserve a quality baseball team that has passion and spunk. If you notice the bench when when we are at bat, everyone looks like they lost a loved one. You have to get off your wallet and get some players who are talented instead of working with average kids. This is do or die for this program. We have to go with whats best for this franchise and let Bobby, JefF, Kellie J, Tom Glavine,CORKY MILLER TIME, Mark k, Hampton for new bat boy because nobody wants this money sucking desease near thier program. Their are a few more but its getting to depressing writing all these below average players in a couple of sentences. Make it happen!!
By Doc Holliday
July 24, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this
OK gang………..we are 1 game behind pace……….we need to sweep the phillies or win 2 out of 3…………..winning 1out of 3 will put us 2 games behind the pace for the 2nd half………..meaning we would have to sweep the cards or win 3 out of for from them and then sweep the next series…………
Talk about pressure.
By timthebrave
July 24, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this
Will, I told you I was drinking the kool aid but I’m a die hard fan that easily forgets the bad and focuses on the positive. The trade Chipper ideas are terrible. Why would you trade the best player on your team? Have you seen our record when Chipper doesn’t play?TexasBrave, I agree 100%….I’ve had coaches that helped me over the years and coaches that were awful. In all my years of playing baseball I can’t blame any of my stikeouts on the coaches. You don’t think TP and Bobby are telling Francouer…”If you see a high fastball swing for the fence but if you see a curve a foot outside in the dirt try to pull it. Coaches always get too much credit for wins and too much blame for losses. JMO.
By Doc Holliday
July 24, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this
Braves need the phillies to win today…………since we are going to beat the hell out of them on weekend…….we rather have them in 1st place and not the mets that will also be taking advantage of our massacre.
By brent a.
July 24, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this
If we win 40 games, but go 0-9 against the Phillies, I have a hunch we won’t catch them.
By David O'Brien
July 24, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this
Their are a few more but its getting to depressing writing all these below average players in a couple of sentences.cbt
Not nearly as depressing and flat-out torturous as it was reading that post. Thirty seconds of my life I’ll never get back.
By Francoeur available???
July 24, 2008 12:05 PM | Link to this
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080724&contentid=3187051&vkey=newsmlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Scroll down to “Purpose Pitches”. Does Jim Molony know what he is talking about?
By STRETCH
July 24, 2008 12:08 PM | Link to this
Doc,
They really need some healthy players(Chipper being out did not help) and some breaks(after the first half, they gotta get some!). That lineup has got to show up and hit the ball, with Philly(they have owned the Braves this year), St Louis(P** cause they got swepted by the Brewers), and speaking of the Brewers….they are really hot right now.
They have a chance to make it interesting, but they ALL must play better. Point blank.
By David O'Brien
July 24, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this
Lew, good point about Chipper and DH. Why some believe that would keep him healthy escapes me. Most of his injuries — hamstring, groin, quad — had nothing to do with defensive position; he was hurt running the bases or coming out of the batter’s box. Even the bad foot thing a few years back, occurred as he took his first step out of the box.
By 1957 Braves Fan
July 24, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this
I am rooting for Hampton to to make his comeback a shut down of the Phillies. Let’s get him some runs to work with!
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this
brent a., no matter how you define clutch, I don’t believe there is any batter who is significantly better or worse in clutch situations than overall, given enough plate appearances.
You seem to be basing your idea of clutch on key hits. Problem with that is that any major league player (or maybe a not-so-decent player) has a chance to have a big hit or a big moment. Does that mean he has more of a magical ability to hit in the clutch more than another player?
Any player who can perform consistently well at the major league level is a clutch player.
Reggie Jackson and Kirk Gibson were talented players and they came up with big moments. Those players came through in some clutch moments. I don’t think that means they have some magical ability to perform well in the clutch.
By Lew
July 24, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this
Shaun-I’m not saying Frenchy is, was, or will ever be the offensive force that Albert is-quite honestly, Pujols is an exceptional player-one who comes along every ten years or so, IMO. I actually think Frenchy is a victim of over expectations and the curse of the Sports Illustrated cover. Had we been led to believe he was another Pat Burrell, no one would be anywhere near as upset with him like they are for having a prolonged slump.
BravesFanInRockies-I hear what you’re saying, but I think you’re indulging in an overreliance on those particular stats (and yes, I can hear Shaun foaming at the mouth). What really matters-the ONLY thing that matters-is that Frenchy did indeed, lead baseball in two out RBI’s, not once but in both his two full years and Albert did not. THAT is the telling stat and nothing else. VORPs, Badabings, OPS+ and whatever park adjusted bull manure is immaterial in that particular case.
I repeat-If he could do it for those two years, then at age 24 he could well do it again. THAT is what past performance tells us-not that he’s ready for the scrap heap as so many seem to believe
Those are the only points I’ve been trying to make. I’m fully aware his season has been an exercise in futility-I’m not blind. I realize his mechanics are totally destroyed and he needs to get his head back into the light, shall we say. However, dumping him would not only be premature, but foolish in the extreme-especially trading him for a perennial fourth outfielder like Nady as conventional blog wisdom maintains.
By Lee in S GA
July 24, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this
Lee just don’t believe Chip .., We all know he
DesiBrave
That is the one reason I brought it up on here. I knew “”Shaun** would be the one likely to respond and he did. LOL. But thanks guys because it did not sound exactly correct to me either unless they got me confused going around in circles talking about it.
By timthebrave
July 24, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this
The Braves are 9-2 in games I have been to this year. If I could just go on the road…hmmm….The Braves need to hire me on. I could pitch as many innings as Hampton and I cost a lot less. I will even dress in cow suit to appease the Chik-fil-a gods that now own the Braves. I’m just saying. Go Braves!
By David O'Brien
July 24, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this
This is DOB’s idea of a hard-hitting interview?Marc
Actually, no. It’s his idea of a blog. To paraphrase your claims about the word “truncate,” 90 percent of the populace also understands the concept of blogging.
You, however, apparently are in the other 10 percent.
By McFann :Ô:
July 24, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this
bobby’s cox (Why no caps, man?)—
Thanks. I stole that line from a movie (Night at the Museum…hilarious movie).
Braves2249—
Yeah yeah…I saw that game…
Francoeur available???—
I saw that article, too. I won’t believe till I read it from somebody I trust.
By You got to be kidding me
July 24, 2008 12:24 PM | Link to this
Will all you AJC people quit finding apologists for Bobby Cox? Yes he had a 14 year run in the postseason but only one title to show for it… and he had what some would consider dream teams during that run! All his players love him because he babies them and gives them little cute pet nicknames (Smoltzie, Frenchy, Chippy, Texy etc…) The young talent is here, we just need someone to manage it correctly!
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 12:24 PM | Link to this
Who would I rather have up with the game on the line, Johnson or Francoeur?
I’d rather have Johnson simply because he’s the more talented hitter. It’s as simple as that. No need to dig up who has been better with 2 outs and RISP or anything like that. Just give me the most talented major league hitter available to me; and that is Johnson over Francoeur.
By Gil In Mechanicsville
July 24, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this
cbt You’re and idiot…
By Lew
July 24, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this
TimtheBrave-Maybe we should chip in and get you a season ticket.
Unfortunately, they’re only 1-2 in games I’ve gone to-but they did have two of the best pitching performances of the year at those games (Jair and JoJO in Toronto).
By Hampton will Never Pitch
July 24, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
Some of you hardcore Francoeur defenders are beyond absurd. You guys have swallowed so much Kool-Aid that it’s not even funny.
Comparing Francoeur, one of the game’s two or three worst everyday players and certainly the NL’s worst regular right fielder, to Kelly Johnson, who despite his recent slump still has stats that rank him as an above average offensive second baseman is ridiculous.
Francoeur was bad in 2006, mediocre last season and is frickin’ awful this season. His big “breakout” season last year is tantamount to Kelly Johnson’s supposed sub-par season this season. And again, he’s a CORNER OUTFIELD which is NOT offensively comparable to second basemen. It just goes to show how you braindead Francoeurbots have lost all sense of reality.
And finally, Kelly Johnson or Mark Kotsay should bat above Francoeur. Say what you will about either of them, but I’ve never seen them produce the kind of at-bat Francoeur produced on July 22, 2008 with the bases loaded and no one out. Francoeur in that at-bat bailed a struggling pitcher who just walked the bases loaded out by repeatedly hacking at neck-high fastballs. Johnson and Kotsay wouldn’t have given Vanden Hurk such an easy free-out like that. To be fair, they may have made outs too, but unlike Francoeur, I bet you it wouldn’t have been so easy as to just throwing really high fastballs and watch the hitter (Francoeur) strike himself out. Johnson and Kotsay have better plate-discipline than that.
By MAV
July 24, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
N9 For a worthless reliever, he usually pithces just as long when he comes in as JOJO does when HE STARTS. Please explain how he is getting experience when he is out of the game in the second or third inning consistently. He is not part of the future of this team and will never be. Heck Jeff Bennett is another option that would be better. JOJO needs a clue!
By Mike Hampton's Vajayjay
July 24, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this
Chipper as a DH? Is this your first time to watch baseball?
DOB - any new news on Huddy? Are they going to send OhNo Reyes down if Hampy returns as scheduled? As I type this I’m guessing you’re probably not at the clubhouse this early but find out what you can for us please and thanks.
By Doc Holliday
July 24, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this
Id rather have Campillo or Hudson with the game on the line than JF…………thats how bad he is RIGHT NOW.
By The Goche
July 24, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this
Mad Men on AMC, with season premiere of the latter this Sunday.dob
that show, is in fact, amazing. my roommate and I watched all of last season on demand in 2 days.
By Jonathon
July 24, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this
By David O’Brien July 23, 2008 9:19 PM Yep, it just might be time for Hampton to be thrust into the rotation with no more rehab or bullpen sessions (and thus no more chances to get hurt)
But DOB, he still has to warm up. Plenty of opportunity to blow something out right there. Isn’t that how the pec injury started in the first place?
By STRETCH
July 24, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this
Found this on SI.COMM
Teixeira could go … but not for nothing The secretive Braves aren’t saying whether they’re buyers or sellers. But people around baseball wouldn’t be surprised in the least if there was a deal just before the deadline involving star first baseman Mark Teixeira.
The Braves are apparently trying to gauge their chances to contend now, and that’s understandable since they’re in the unimposing NL East. Even so, their chances don’t look so hot from here, at seven games out and in fourth place. With all the injury problems they’ve had (is Mike Hampton ever coming back?), most baseball people ultimately believe reality will set in and Teixeira will be moved.
The Braves won’t be able to come close to recouping what they gave to Texas last summer to get one year of Teixeira (Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Matt Harrison and Elvis Andrus). But they’d easily beat two draft choices, which is all they get if he leaves as a free agent.
Angels GM Tony Reagins understandably laughed off the absurd report in a Minnesota paper of third-base prospect Brandon Wood and utilityman Robb Quinlan being the whole package to go to Atlanta for Teixeira as the babble of “bloggers.” (good line, though some bloggers actually do great work).
As former Oakland GM Sandy Alderson once said about a rumored trade of Jose Canseco (back when he was a 40-40 man for the A’s and before he became a disgrace) to the Yankees for something like Roberto Kelly, Mark Hutton and Sam Militello, that package doesn’t rent Teixeira for a weekend. Someone will probably wind up renting Teixeira for the final two months, and it may yet wind up being the Angels. But it’s going to take a lot more than that.
By TexasBrave
July 24, 2008 12:36 PM | Link to this
Johnson or French? Johnson right now. French if he ever wakes up from his nightmare.
By David O'Brien
July 24, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this
you got to be kidding me (12:24): who should we ask about him that will give us a critique that you would approve of? because frankly, interviews and conversations I’ve had in recent weeks with people in the industry, from players to broadcasters, from his competitors to his employers, are not yielding responses that I think you and other fire-Cox folks here would like.
Or should we just quote fans and bloggers as the only counterpoint opinions? I mean, this is your forum, as is the vent, etc. Do you also feel your views should be expressed by people in the baseball industry, and if they don’t agree with your views, then we shouldn’t quote them?
I was talking to Ohman about something entirely unrelated. About possibly being traded. I then asked him about Cox, as a direct result of people here on the blog bringing up the subject. If you’d prefer, I just won’t ask anyone about him. Would that be better?
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 24, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this
I’m just hoping that the Phillies were focusing so much on the Muts that they forget to bring their “A” game to the series tomorrow night. Very possible.
One thing’s for sure - the Braves will need to bring their bats to the offense-happy Phillies stadium. Not having Chipper in the lineup could really hurt their chances with that being the case.
And one more thing - if you had told me in April that Gregor Blanco would be the Braves best performing outfielder (my opinion) come late July and that the Braves would only be six games out of first… I’d have said you were crazy.
By brent a.
July 24, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this
Shaun,
Now you are defining clutch as “magical” ability.
Again, “your” definition of clutch.
First, it was “significantly better” in the clutch than the rest of the game.
Now, it’s “magically” better.
Long before I was aware of your existence, I was well aware of statistical sampling.
I am still saying, that if you watch the games, there are some players who have the penchant for stepping up in big moments, while others don’t. There are even some “statistically” good players who have stepped up better in key moments than other “statistically” good players.
Alex Rodriguez is a good example of a player who seems to have every skill one would need to be the best player in the game; yet in multiple Octobers, he has fallen short. I realize that if you look at his post-season numbers, they are not over-all, strikingly lower than his regular season numbers.
However, if you look at his Yankees post-season numbers, starting with the 2004 LCS, you can see evidence of a guy who is cowering under the pressure of playing play-off baseball in New York and consistently falling short.
And that is where the discussion of a clutch player comes into play. It’s not just how you do playing a meaningless game in Kansas City in August. But rather, it’s how a player is able, or unable, to handle the pressure of the big stage.
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this
Lew, 2 out RBI is the only thing that matters in the discussion? Really? You’re joking, right?
Doesn’t matter how many times Francoeur came up to the plate with 2 outs (in 2007, 242 times versus Pujols’ 229). Doesn’t matter how many times Pujols was intentionally walked (10 times versus 2 in 2007) or walked (48 versus 18). Doesn’t matter how many times Francoeur came up with 2 out, RISP (98 versus 54).
No, none of that matters. All that matters is that Francoeur had more 2-out RBI than Pujols.
Unbelievable! I seriously wonder if you are just disagreeing on purpose so that the point that Francoeur wasn’t necessarily the better hitter in two-out situations can be revealed.
Also, I love the, “You’re stats are poo-poo but my one stat means everything.”
By nolie
July 24, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this
References and Resources As a reference, here is a list of each team’s Win Shares Age this year. Win Shares age is essentially a team’s age weighted by the contribution of each player (as measured by Win Shares). There are several youth movements to note: the Giants are 3.2 years younger than last year’s team, the Twins are 2.5 years younger, the Dodgers are 2.3 years younger and the Rangers are 2.1 years younger.
Team WSAge MIN 25.7
TB 25.7
ARI 26.2
OAK 26.4
FLA 26.7
WAS 27.0
LAN 27.0
CLE 27.2
KC 27.2
TEX 27.2
ATL 27.3
PIT 27.4
LAA 27.4
COL 27.4
MIL 27.8
CIN 27.9
BAL 28.0
SF 28.1
STL 28.1
SEA 28.3
CHA 28.5
NYN 28.6
SD 28.7
BOS 28.7
CHN 28.9
DET 29.2
PHI 29.2
TOR 29.3
HOU 30.8
NYA 31.6
By Braveheart
July 24, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this
I’d rather have Johnson simply because he’s the more talented hitter. It’s as simple as that.
Is Johnson really the more talented hitter of the two? I’m not seeing it. Francoeur has a higher career average and has more power. KJ can draw a walk but not as well as he used to be able to. Maybe I’m being silly but you’d think that if KJ was simply the more talented hitter, he would have more power and a higher career batting average than Francoeur. Johnson is not a more talented hitter. He’s a more talented pitch taker. Whoop-de-damn-dooooo!
By DesiBrave
July 24, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this
Lee in S GA
Chip is most disgusting guy that I turn the volume down when he speaks. He probably scores a 0 on the IQ tests.
Anyways here is one simple scenario to prove what he said is not right.
Braves will play 3 against phillies , 4 against St Louis, 3 against Brewers. So lets say they go 9-1, phillies and mets have a 5-5 record in the next 10 games then Braves are within 2 games out of the first place. So they will have 51 games left to gain that 2 games. So even if braves go 32-19 in the rest of the stretch and mets and phillies and marlins play 29-22 that is 7 games above 500. Mets and Phillies are currently 7 games above 500 so my assumption in the current scenario is that they keep going at the same rate, braves will still win the divison by 1 game.
so in other words Braves can still make it to postseason with a good streak in the next 10days
I know all this looks easy on paper and practically very tough but we have the chips (not the carays but jones’) in place. Hudson, Jurggens, Campillo , Morton keeping the good work and Braves hitters believe in themselves that they can do it and provided we wont trade Teix and instead get a solid bat to help them we are in it .
Point to be noted I am not counting on Hampton so if a miracle happens and he starts helping the team then that is a bonus.
By geauxbraves2000
July 24, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this
Good morning all, unless you are in EST, then good afternoon.
I too would prefer KJ over JF with the game on the line, as Shaun says he’s the more talented ML hitter.
Okay, let’s say Hampton actually pitches, and he pitches well, injury free, wins a few games and looks like he could fall back into a #3 or #4 roll. If you are the Braves, do you offer him an incentive laden contract for ‘09?
Geaux Braves!!
By JB
July 24, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this
you got to be kidding me
Bobby calls Chipper Chip. Not Chippy.
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this
DOB, doesn’t matter how many players, coaches, GMs, other managers, writers, broadcasters express admiration and respect for Cox, some won’t be happy until they hear someone say that Cox is awful. Some are not interested in the truth. They are interested only in their own assumptions about what Bobby Cox is as a manager.
By Devil's advocate
July 24, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this
Okay,you’ve defined blog.
But-honestly-how many serious and pointed questions have you thrown out there the last three seasons? Like almost every other media member you are intimidated by Bobby Cox and risk getting the cold shoulder by a player if you get too down and dirty.
Outside of New York, Boston, and Philly a beat writer almost has to be part writer/part p.r. guy. It’s the nature of the beast.
By jrjags
July 24, 2008 12:58 PM | Link to this
I don’t think the Braves are looking to trade Frenchy now. His value has never been lower, and he still has the tools to turn it around. Will he? That’s the million dollar question, but he’s still cheap for several years, giving the Braves time to figure that out. What would you get back for him? Little to nothing right now. More time in the minors makes more sense to me than a dump trade.
DOB, do you think that the injuries to Chipper and Huddy might tip the scales to sell for Wren? I know they aren’t considered very serious, but they are probably the two guys we could least afford to lose. Any DL time for Chipper would sink the Braves ship for good.
By brent a.
July 24, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this
This season, rigth now … I’d rather have Kelly Johnson up than Jeff Francoeur.
Francoeur is a head case right now.
By sri
July 24, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this
Another frustrated fan’s random rants…
I blame these Braves for the majority of grey hairs on my head.. What do you folks think is the role of the coaching staff on a team? It is easier in the case of veterans.. The coaching staff just needs to tweak a few things here and there.. But in the case of younger players does’nt the coaching staff have more responsibility? The general philosophy of the Braves coaching staff seems to be ‘Let the players figure it out for themselves’. They seem to take a more passive approach then the other teams in the league (I may be wrong about this, but from what we read on the news, that is the impression I have). I think most of the bloggers here who are frustrated about Frenchy, fear it is going to be a repeat of what happened with Andruw. We all seem to agree that though Andruw had 10 productive seasons as baseball player (both offensive and defensive), he could have been a much better hitter (more well rounded), and the general perception is the coaching staff was’nt forceful enough to make him change his approach. But we hear a lot more about pitchers changing/redefining their mechanics than hitters changing their approach. Maybe it is easier for the pitchers than hitters. I have never played baseball so those who have played the game.. Any thoughts?? Even in the Braves organisation, we have more instances of the pitching coach helping players(vets and younger players, both Leo and Roger) , but not as many hitting coach success stories. Is it that because the journalists dont report them? Or is it harder to coach a hitter than a pitcher?
But I think Frenchy’s slump and out offenses in-consistencies, highlights the fact it does’nt make baseball sense for the Braves to tie up $20+ in one player. I think Wren’s job got tougher that now he has to have a backup plan in case Frenchy does’nt rebound. I dont think we should give up on Frenchy yet, but he should build the lineup to compensate for Frenchy/Kelly’s inconsistencies and Chippers injuries each year.But it is too early to discuss about next year anyways..
By Bench Stenchy
July 24, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this
From MLB.com:
The Braves haven’t completely shut the door on dealing certain players. They will listen to offers for Jeff Francoeur and Will Ohman and some insiders expect Teixeira to become available if the Braves have a bad week.
Oh please, oh please, oh please trade Francoeur.
By Show me the money
July 24, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this
DOB, what will Francouer get in arbitration next year, and do you think it could get ugly if the Braves make a offer lower than he wants? Arbitration is a tough situation, because the team has to bring up the negatives to justify why an offer is lower than the player wanted.
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this
brent a., I’m saying just because a player has come through in big moments doesn’t necessarily mean he has some skill or ability to come through in big moments. I’m saying that overall talent and ability is more meaningful than whether or not a player has done something before in big moments.
I’ll take A-Rod over most other players in a big game, even one in October in Yankee Stadium. I’ll trust his abilities over looking at what he’s done in the post-season with the Yankees. And my guess is if you had something on the line, you would go with A-Rod over most other players, also.
And, have you looked at what A-Rod has done with the Yankees in the post-season? His OBP is .372. His SLG is .436. That’s in 113 PA. I see nothing that would lead me to believe that A-Rod chokes in the clutch. Maybe some of his numbers being off are a result of him choking, but I believe it’s more likely because of the size of the sample. But if you want, I’ll let you have Jerry Willard or Mark Lemke in October and I’ll go ahead and take A-Rod.
By Doc Holliday
July 24, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this
The question is…………out of order…………
I mean………..Trying to compare KJ and JF is ………..I have no words…………
Right now the only question that would be worth thinking about would be………….who would you rather have up with the game on the line……….CORKY, JEFF OR GOTAY?——————Other than that, I see no argument we could have with JF hitting.
By Quack Quack
July 24, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this
While maybe not conforming to your perception or expectations of what clutch hitting is, before his current slump, he was The Man to have up in those situations. This is also why I, for one, refuse to give up on the guy. He’s done it before-he can do it again.Lew
I didn’t say he didn’t come through in the clutch those two years, he was. But it is a stat that as it increases it gets closer to the players norm. He is not clutch this year and that will in fact bring his numbers back closer to his normal hitting. He might turn around again next season and hit better in the clutch or he might not. I’m not sure why you think I was picking on Jeff, when the discussion I was referring to was general in nature. But i guarantee you that he never averaged .500 to .667 in clutch situations which was the point I was making. His clutch stats those 2 years were between .256 and .330 or so, which was within an understandable range of his normal ability, somewhat higher and likely to decrease some as he got more ABs in those situations and his sample size grew. I get that you don’t dig stats and that you don’t agree with Shaun mostly, but like he says there are few if any players whose performance in a large number of clutch situations is markedly different than their mean production.
By TennesseePaul
July 24, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this
Braveheart: Johnson is not a more talented hitter. He’s a more talented pitch taker.
You type that as if drawing a walk doesn’t knock in a run from second? C’mon. We all know if you get a ton of guys drawing walks the sport is that much more fun to watch.
By GT80
July 24, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this
DOB, is it true that when Hampton comes onto the field his intro music will be Johnny Cash’s version of “Hurt”.
God that would be awesome.
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 24, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this
I think first and foremost, Devil’s Advocate/YGTBKM, a sportswriter/journalist in any market, whether it be Des Moines, Atlanta, or one of your precious three exceptions (Chicago is a much bigger market than Philly, btw), has to sell or help sell newspapers and their internet site with interesting stories. And the success of this blog and the fact that you are writing on it suggest to me that DOB is doing quite nicely.
By Lee in S GA
July 24, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this
At present time I do not have a whole lot of confidence in Johnson or Frenchy. I suppose Johnson. My only thought he is more likely to draw a walk and give another batter a chance. But then I suppose that would be Frenchy batting behind him in the line-up…….so I would lose there also.
By N8
July 24, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this
Quack Quack
“Too bad all that work was wasted on a ridiculous concept that a hitter should succeed 67% of the time in clutch situations.As Moby replied, that concept is so wrong as to be ludicrous.I ‘m not surprised by such idiocy from N8…”
OK. If you are referring to ALL of my posts as idiocy, fair enough. But if you are lumping me in with the comment about the .667 success rate in “clutch” situations.
I’m NOT in that frickin’ category.
FOR THE THIRD FRIICKIN TIME FOR THE PEOPLE THAT CHOOSE NOT TO READ, OR ARE NOT CAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING SARCASM……..I WAS BEING VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY SARCASTIC WHEN I STATED THAT I DEMAND A HITTER TO HIT .750 WITH RISP!!!!
Like I said. If you’re generalizing my “idiocy”, so be it. You’re entitled to your opinion.
But if you’re lumping me in with that “crowd” based on a sarcastic post, then you sir are and idiot.
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, Francoeur is clearly more likely to make an out. And if that happens, the game is over. So I’ll take Johnson with 2 outs, 9th inning.
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this
TennPaul, again, Francoeur is more likely to make an out. And with 2 outs in the 9th, an out ends the game.
You go ahead and worry about whether the game is fun to watch. I’ll worry about whether I give my team a chance to actually win.
By brent a.
July 24, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this
Shaun,
I did look at A-Rod’s post-season numbers with the Yankees, and referenced that in my post.
But, start with the 2004 LCS and go forward. Take those 75 at-bats, watch them even, and tell me with complete sincerity that they don’t look like a guy who is starting to feel the pressure of post-season failure as a Yankee.
You took his entire body of work, which is fine. But, 75 at-bats (and his lat 75 at-bats, for that matter) is still a very nice statistical sampling, and they show a guy who appears to be struggling under the scrutiny of the New York media, marriage problems, his break-up with Derek Jeter, and most importantly, continued post-season failure. It’s real.
Yes, A-Rod is good, and he seems like a good guy to have on your team in the World Series.
But, I’d rather have Reggie Jackson or Kirk Gibson than A-Rod, if you give me the choice.
By Random
July 24, 2008 1:31 PM | Link to this
Glass half full time:
Joe Posnanski on Joe Blanton going to the Phillies (we’ll get to see how that works out this Sunday.)
(The linked article also goes on and on about converting former Brave (MiLB) SS Tony Pena, Jr to a pitcher.)
Even now, long after Moneyball, there are still those in the game who seem entirely dismissive of those little things called statistics. [Pay attention, Jack G, you anti-stat boy, you.]
I know this to be true because last week, Philadelphia traded two prospects for pitcher Joe Blanton. Now, let me say, it’s not impossible that Joe Blanton will pitch well for the Phillies and be the difference-maker down the stretch. He’s pretty young, experienced, he’s pretty young. And all that. He’s pretty young. It’s not impossible. It’s also not impossible that the phone ringing in the kitchen right now is a call from Bruce Springsteen asking if I want to join him on tour, you know, just to hang out. It’s not impossible, but you will note that I’m not getting up to answer it. If it’s Bruce, he’ll call back.
And “not impossible” is just about as far as I would be willing to go on the Blanton deal. It COULD work just like that essay for history class you made up at 3 a.m. the night before COULD get an A. But it won’t work. If you take a cursory look at Blanton’s statistics, sure, he’s 47-46 and his career ERA is 4.27. OK, average pitcher — almost the definition of an average pitcher. His numbers were pretty good in 2007 (14-10, 3.95 ERA) and they have been lousy this year (5-12, 4.96 ERA). He’s a control pitcher who doesn’t strike out many and who gives up hits, but he does sink the ball so he doesn’t give up a lot of home runs. Fine. Average pitcher. Well, those guys can help you.
But is he really an average pitcher? Well, as a GM, you might take more than a cursory look at a players statistics. And if you look closer — Blanton isn’t an average pitcher. He’s a pitcher whose numbers LOOK average because he has been pitching in Oakland, probably the best pitcher’s park in the American League, maybe in all of baseball. Take a look at that 2007 season again, in split form:
Home: 2.69 ERA, batters hit .227/.256/.308 against him.
Road: 5.11 ERA, batters hit .304/.337/.438 against him.
That looks a lot different, doesn’t it? His career splits are not quite as dramatic … but dramatic enough …
Blanton at home: 3.79 ERA, batters hit .258/.304/.386 against him.
Blanton away: 4.78 ERA, batters hit .290/.337/.438 against him.
This year, he made six of his 20 Oakland starts away from home. Still, the numbers are about the same …he’s still allowing about one run more per game.
Home: 4.63 ERA.
Road: 5.73 ERA
Houston, we have a trend. OK, now, let’s go to the second part of the equation: Philadelphia is one of the WORST pitchers parks in the National League (or one of the best hitters parks, if you prefer). Last year, it was the easiest homer park in the game by a longshot.
Is this really a mystery? Do we really wonder what will happen? … Seriously, what do you think is going to happen when Joe Blanton pitches for Philadelphia most days? Where would you bet your money?
By N8
July 24, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this
Shaun
“brent a., no matter how you define clutch, I don’t believe there is any batter who is significantly better or worse in clutch situations than overall, given enough plate appearances.”
What do you do for a living? I’ve never asked, because it’s never mattered. But I’m curious.
Have you ever been sports, at ANY level? Have you ever been friends with anybody that’s played high level college ball (football, baseball or basketball…hell….ANYTHING), do you know anybody that was ever in drama, or played in a band?
ANYBODY that has done any sort of “entertainment”, knows that there is “pressure” situations that are different than any other moment, even though the “actions and motions” you are going through are EXACTLY the same as the ones you did yesterday or last week.
For instance, I’ve been playing guitar for 20+ years. Been in bands for about 17 of that. I can tell you that there is a SIGNIFICANT difference in playing your setlist in a small bar that holds 250 drunk people, and playing as an opening act at an outdoor festival, where some of you idols are standing 25 feet to your left watching you play guitar (along with the 10,000 people in front of you).
Are you telling me that the “nerves” and human emotions are a NON factor, and there is no difference in an AB in April against a kid that is making his major league debut vs. an AB against Mariano Rivera with the tying run on 2B in game 7 of the WS?
You could type a 2000 word essay explaining your opinion of why there is “no difference” in situations and that players are either good hitters or not.
But you’re NEVER gonna convince me that MLB players don’t get nervous, or have their adrenaline pumping a little more with the game on the line.
Some people thrive in the pressure, some people cave.
Human nature, dude. They’re not robots.
By Tomas
July 24, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this
Man those Mets are looking very, very sharp. Their only concern would be the outfield and the bulpen. But the new manager and pitching coach has helped them a lot. I thought they have no chance. Now I see them as a team that is taking off.
DOB, with chipper injured who would bat third? Mac or will cox consider Tex as an option.
By TheAntiMe
July 24, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this
I would like to address a little matter that Terence Moore wrote about the Braves signing Barry Bonds for the rest of the year. Sure, I can see it now. Barry Bonds’s head has gotten so big, literally, over the past few years that if you were to put him in a Braves jersey he would almost certainly be mistaken for Homer The Brave. Can you imagine the total public relations disaster the Braves would incur the first time he tells a six year old girl to go bleep herself when she asks him to pose with her for a photo.
By Shamus Thacker
July 24, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this
The Bravos should buy fire insurance on Hammy. He could become too warm during warm-ups and spontaneously combust.
By Random
July 24, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this
Quack Quack: “Too bad all that work was wasted on a ridiculous concept that a hitter should succeed 67% of the time in clutch situations.As Moby replied, that concept is so wrong as to be ludicrous.I ‘m not surprised by such idiocy from N8
And I think N8 was totally serious too — he hasn’t recanted anywhere that I have seen.
;->
By Joe
July 24, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this
how about this trade- Frenchy,Lilbridge,JoJo,Brandon Jones and pitching prospect for Bay and Nady
By Braveheart
July 24, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, Francoeur is clearly more likely to make an out. And if that happens, the game is over. So I’ll take Johnson with 2 outs, 9th inning.
At the most important moment of the game, you would rather have your six hitter take a stroll to first and pass the responsibility for getting the run in from second on to the guys hitting at the bottom of the order?
Two outs, bottom of the ninth, man on second, down by a run, the six hitter up, I want the hitter who is more aggressive, hits for a higher average and has more power. Francoeur does that more than KJ. I really don’t want strolls to first base which causes me to entrust the fate of my team to inferior bottom of the order hitters such as Blanco, Thorman, etc.
By bravos2249
July 24, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this
No, none of that matters. All that matters is that Francoeur had more 2-out RBI than Pujols.
Pujols was walked more in this situations….IBB or unintentional IBB….that means Pujols is more feared.
He did well but you can’t say anything about stats like walks not mattering.
For example: Tex has 10 more rbi than walks….and Chipper has more walks than rbi.
By LT-AA Blogger
July 24, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this
DesiBrave,
While I admire the optimism, believing this team can go 9-1 in the next 10 against the Phillies, Cardinals, and Brewers resounds delusion (or crack pipe).
Anyways….
I don’t see any team in contention trading for Franceour, so it’d have to be a team already out. What would the Braves want in return? It’d have to be a package of minor league players. If it’s position players, I’d rather hold onto Franceour and see if he can turn it around next year. If it’s some highly rated pitcher (ing) prospect (s), trade the dude.
I think the Braves at best win 1 game in Philly making Tex as good as gone next week. Some team is gonna sweeten the pot I think.
While I think the seasons more or less done, I am enjoying watching Jurjens, Morton, Reyes, and Campillo. I’d rather not see Hampton or Glavine come back this year- let the youngsters cut their teeth and be ready for next season.
By ernesto
July 24, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this
GT80 - “DOB, is it true that when Hampton comes onto the field his intro music will be Johnny Cash’s version of “Hurt”. God that would be awesome.”
Now, that’s both “funny like a clown” funny and “funny-not-like-a-clown” funny all at the same time.
Well done, sir!
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this
brent a., don’t know what numbers you are looking at. His OBP is .372. His SLG is .436. That’s in 113 PA. He hasn’t been bad enough for me to justify taking A-Rod over someone else. He hasn’t been bad enough in a large enough sample to say he lacks an ability to come through in the clutch.
I’ll let you make all sorts of presumptions about his marriage and relationships with the media and Jeter. I’ll let you assume that 113 PA means a great deal. But I’ll look at his skills and abilities as a baseball player and go with that.
If media pressure, marriage problems and all that haven’t caused him to perform at least somewhat poorly in the regular season, why do you assume that those things cause him to perform poorly in the regular season? I mean, you’d think if all that stuff was in his head, his production at least would drop off a little bit in the regular season. But probably his two best seasons have come with the Yankees (2005 and 2007).
By Random
July 24, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this
Quack Quack: “Too bad all that work was wasted on a ridiculous concept that a hitter should succeed 67% of the time in clutch situations. As Moby replied, that concept is so wrong as to be ludicrous. I‘m not surprised by such idiocy from N8, but somewhat disconcerted to see it from Random. Sigh
But seriously … (Sorry, N8, I couldn’t resist).
It’s all about “clutch”.
If you believe in it, if you have a favorite player whom you are convinced is totally “clutch”, I would think that your lowest expectation would be that he will surely “come through in the crunch” more times than not.
Otherwise, it’s just a coin flip, and how can you consider that to be “clutch”?
I went to two out of three just to keep the numbers small and the fraction simple. I’m more than willing to admit that others might have more “reasonable” expectations out of their “clutch” hitters (3 out of 5, 5 out of 8?), but if you go too low, you have wholly descended from the “clutch” plateau.
Whatever your “clutch” threshhold might be, failing “in the crunch” in 11 losses out of 22 (and coming through in only 8) surely cannot be considered “clutch”? Whereas, coming through in 4 critical wins out of 6 surely would be.
Do you even believe in “clutch” hitting? Many don’t. More on that later.
I appreciate your disappointment — I promise it will be short-lived.
By Chop Chop
July 24, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this
(N8, you beat me to it, dammit…but I’ll post what I typed…)
Shaun,
You wrote this earlier today:
“Any player who can perform consistently well at the major league level is a clutch player.”
That is one of the strangest statements I’ve ever read coming from a guy that I normally think is rational.
Baseball players are individuals with different capacities for dealing with pressure situations. Some guys handle that pressure better than others. Better players damn well ought to be better players in the clutch because of their superior ability, but some of them aren’t very good at it. In fact, this is true of players in any sport and people in almost any walk of life.
Shaun, have you ever worked in a situation where you had to get things exactly right very quickly and had no room for error? If you have, you know that pressure is very real. Your work might be affected by the pressure to meet a deadline. If your work suffers, then your ability to come through in the clutch is not what you’d like it to be. As we all know, it’s not easy to practice “clutch situations.” They often just come and go and we’re forced to try to adjust to them in a very short amount of time.
The stats may or may not bear this out, but it’s my belief that baseball players who truly excel in the clutch may not always have the best postseason or regular season numbers, but they rise to meet the occasion when the pressure is on. In some cases, performing well in the clutch might just be performing at the same level as one does in more relaxed situations. In other words, the stress of a pressure-packed trip to the batter’s box is handled like a normal plate appearance. A good reliever who enters a tied game in the late innings on the road with the fans roaring in his ears might be able to tune everything out, but another good reliever might get rattled. Do you realize how rare it is for most players to be calm in such situations? This holds true for nearly every person (singers, surgeons, soldiers, etc.), including those who perform consistently well as a major league player.
Not all situations are the same, Shaun. Baseball players do not exist in a vacuum. The reality and gravity of situations affects how players perform. It is just a basic truth. It’s part of being human.
By ernesto
July 24, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this
Joe - The Bucs traded Lil’Bridge to us, so I’m not sure they’re dying to get him back - especially after his performance this year - though they might want a good defender to play out the string if they deal Wilson.
But, that’s only the beginning of why they wouldn’t make that trade. If I was the Braves I’d take it in a second.
By ernesto
July 24, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this
From MLBtraderumors.com
“The Braves will listen to offers for Jeff Francoeur and Will Ohman, and maybe Mark Teixeira if the Braves struggle in the next week. The Royals are said to be interested in Francoeur. Mike Gonzalez is unavailable.”
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this
N8, I believe nerves and emotions are largely a non-factor for people talented enough and with the makeup to make it all the way to the major leagues.
Braveheart, two outs in the 9th with the game on the line, I just want to win. That’s all I want. If my hitter makes an out, I lose. It’s not about walking or anything like that. It’s about if my hitter makes an out, I lose. I’m not concerned with walks or hits or anything like that. I’m concerned with winning the game.
By brent a.
July 24, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this
Shaun,
How can I spell it out any more clearly?
Look at A-rod’s last 75 post-season at bats. That’s what I’m looking at, and this is the 3rd time I’ve mentioned it.
I fully recognize that his over-all post-season numbers have been okay.
Start with 2004 ALCS against the Boston Red Sox, and continue through the 2007 LDS against the Cleveland Indians.
That is where the discussion of “pressure build up” comes from.
A-rod is a super talent. He used to have strong post-seasons. But, in his last few series, he has really struggled.
This is an indication of him cowering under the pressure of having to be “the man” in New York, especially following the great run the Yankees had from 1996 to 2000.
Again, give me Reggie Jackson and Kirk Gibson, guys who have stepped up in those critical October moments, over “Mr. April” anyday.
Side note: they sell a t-shirt outside Fenway Park that reads:
“A-Rod: Mr. April”
and on the back
“Miss October”
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 24, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this
Yeah, just saw that, too, ernesto.
Maybe we’ll get Pena, Mahay, Davies, and Ramirez back.
By Random
July 24, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this
Man, N8, I was this close to typing a 2000 word essay on “clutch”, but you just now said it a heckuva lot better than I would’ve.
Agree completely!
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this
Chop Chop, I don’t believe that is true. Yes, certain situations are different for different people. No one is denying that.
But I believe that if a person has the talent and the mental makeup and the personality to reach the big leagues, pressure is not going to be a significant factor as to why he may succeed for fail in a situation.
The best singers, soldier, surgeons, whatever are the ones who perform in spite of pressure or overcome pressure. And major league baseball players are the best baseball players. So I think they perform in spite of pressure or overcome pressure. I’m sure there are baseball players who fold under pressure, but those baseball players don’t reach the big leagues.
By brent a.
July 24, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this
Kansas City and Washington are becoming like Atlanta Braves graveyards (for obvious reasons).
Thankfully, though, we never play Kansas City, so that is keeping us from being embarrassed by our cast-offs even more than we already do.
By AuburnBrave
July 24, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this
Just saw on MLBTradeRumors that the Royals have asked about Frenchy’s availability if Wren finally decides to start trading for the future.
Some teams are asking about Gonzo too.
By brent a.
July 24, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this
I believe nerves and emotions are largely a non-factor for people talented enough and with the makeup to make it all the way to the major leagues. Shaun
Shaun, I believe that is the issue we are having today: Your beliefs, versus everyone else’s reality.
And to N8, yes - great post.
By Doc Holliday
July 24, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this
Muts take a 3-1 lead over phillies………
Thats not good………..phillies will play braves even tougher games……..
By TennesseePaul
July 24, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this
Payne: I’d agree, this season, Francoeur is hopeless. I’d rather have a one-armed blind kid up there than him. But, if’n we’re just talking over-all numbers regardless of recent trends, I’d be on the Francoeur side. This is largely because, Francoeur is more likely to knock the run in, where as KJ would more likely pass the buck to the guy behind him. And the guy behind him isn’t all that special. Depending on Cox’s morning mood and the starter of the game, the guy behind KJ could well be a pitcher. Sure, KJ could “pro-long the game” by avoiding the out, but sometimes you have to ante up, double down, just go for it all. It’s the last out of the game with a runner in scoring position. The choice is a power hitter with a better average, but a free swing, or the guy that draws walks… I’ll go with the hitter.
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
brent a., A-Rod’s OBP/SLG with the Yankees and with the Yankees only, NOT overall: 372/.436. That’s in 113 PA. What’s wrong with those numbers? Nothing in there that leads me to believe A-Rod folds under pressure.
I’ll take the most talented players and let you go by nostalgic memories of two or three plate appearances. Or I’ll let you rely on T-shirts and I’ll rely on baseball talent.
Also, please tell me why he’s had his best seasons with the Yankees if the New York pressure and marriage problems and all that is getting to him? Why hasn’t his production dropped at least a little bit, if he can’t handle the New York pressure?
Please tell me why his 2005 and 2007 seasons don’t hold a candle to any of his seasons in laid-back Texas or in Seattle?
By ernesto
July 24, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this
REaB- I’d take DeJesus and Mahay.
Though TP Jr. looked pretty good in his emergency pitching duty the other night…maybe we could convert him, he hits like a pitcher.
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this
Shaun, I believe that is the issue we are having today: Your beliefs, versus everyone else’s reality.
I acknowledge my beliefs could be wrong. I’m just going by the best evidence I have. I’m certainly open to the possibility that I am wrong, if I can find some evidence.
But others are sure their reality is right. They are right because they know they’re right, not because they’ve seen the evidence.
By Braveheart
July 24, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this
N8, I believe nerves and emotions are largely a non-factor for people talented enough and with the makeup to make it all the way to the major leagues.
Isn’t Francoeur the perfect example of the opposite of this being true? He could cruise by on his natural talent and make it to the majors without really being tested. He is now being tested for the first time and seems really screwed in the head.
Isn’t Chuck James another example? Dude cruised through the minors and was relatively successful in the first 35 starts of his career. Then he got injured, performed badly, and from the comments he made, he seemed to lose his confidence.
Many of these guys are so good and so much more talented than their competition at the amateur and minor league level that they never really encounter true adversity until they get to the majors. Frenchy and Chucky never faced adversity until they got to the majors. Neither seems to be dealing well with it.
And Frenchy and Chucky are just average players. If average players like Frenchy and Chucky never encounter true adversity until they get to the majors, how can you simply assume that better than average players really went through the necessary adversity needed to build and/or determine the “makeup” to deal with clutch situations and adversity.
Isn’t Arod 0-27 w/RISP in the postseason in the last 3 years?
By Steve from OH
July 24, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this
brent a., I belive A-Rod and Reggie Jackson have very similar postseason stats. I’m too lazy to look it up right now, but I think I remember reading it somewhere. Reggie probably has more HR, though, but he’s also played in a lot more October games than ARod… Try going to Firejoemorgan.com at searching “selfish homeruns are ruining baseball.” That should (hopefully) make sense to you.
By Deep Throat
July 24, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this
Some teams are asking about Gonzo too.
MLBTradeRumors, Mark Bowman and MLB.com all also say that Mike Gonzalez is completely unavailable.
Which is smart of the Braves. Soriano’s health is not trustworthy.
By Original Jon
July 24, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this
I say whether we are in it or not, if there is a chance we can trade Tex to Arizona for a package that includes Conor Jackson, DO IT. We would control this guy for years to come and he is a darn good hitter. So Wren, if you read this blog, dont give up Tex for anything less than a Conor Jackson type player.
By Kashi
July 24, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this
Its Delgado who won the game for Mets today This is the point I am making for long time. Delgado was taken out of line for a long batting slump. Recently his bat came alive and Beltran is batting as worst as Frency. Today Delgado was in clean up spot and Beltran was batting behind Delgado. Its Delgado who got double in 8th inning two out who WON the game today. We need Frency in right field and we don’t have anyone better to play there currently but c’mon guys letting him bat in 6th spot for this long is costing us a game. I would like to see Kotsay in 6th, KJ and Frency in 8th spot against Phillies series otherwise I am not watching his sorry assss coming up on batter box with runner in scoring position, TV off this weekend.
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this
And yes, I have played sports. Played baseball up until high school. Most talented players I played with, it didn’t matter if it was a pressure situation or not; they came through just as often from what I can recall. And the major leagues are full of much more talented players than guys I played with.
All major leaguers are clutch. You can’t make it to the majors without being clutch. Without being able to overcome or ignore or thrive on pressure.
It’s not that clutch doesn’t exist. It’s that clutch ability is not a significant factor once you reach the big league because everyone has it there. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be there.
By Tomas
July 24, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
Frenchy to the Royals, man thats a bad idea. I know he has had an awfull year, but you can’t give up on him, he is only 24, and he has been good in every level he’s been in until this year. I’m just saying what if frenchy recovers his form with the royals which is very possible, how stupid will the braves be. Wren please do not trade Frenchy, have a little faith.
By NASCAR Dave
July 24, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
MIKE HAMPTON should NOT be allowed in the Dugout!!! Get that GUTLESS WIMP out of there!
PENDELTON should be FIRED… If not, Trade FRANCOEUR, because he cannot hit, and that’s PENDLETON’s job to help him…
TEIXERA needs to be traded today… DIAZ, TAVERAS, INFANTE, GOTAY should all be used as trade bait, also…
The Braves are DONE… It’s time to accept it and start the “REBUILD”…
NUFF SAID.
By Thrillhouse44
July 24, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, when did your man-crush on Chucky end?
By Steve from OH
July 24, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
As I post that I realize that Arod and Reggie’s October stats are on the FJM page, so I guess I just did look it up…
By DAP
July 24, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
you cant trade francouer now…his value is probably very low, and he has had sucess in the past. were not going to get enough for him to make it worth the risk of trading him. i think we will see francouer in the lineup in 2009.
mike gonzalez should not be traded unless the braves get blown away.i think someone posted a article yesterday that said the braves told texas they would trade gonzalez, but only for hamilton. thats what im talking about.
By TennesseePaul
July 24, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this
And major league baseball players are the best baseball players.
Yes. Mark Redman is the best. The best! And I couldn’t get enough of Dan Kolb either. Simply the best on the planet. I know this because he wore a major league uniform and survived the minor leagues. These guys know how to perform in high pressure situations. They learned it in the minor leagues!
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, over-matched in the big leagues or injuries is different from being able to handle pressure situations.
By brent a.
July 24, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this
Shaun
Please, read what I said. You seem to be so entirely caught up in your own agrument that you refuse to read what I am saying.
The last 75 at-bats.
From the 2004 ALCS through the 2007 LDS.
Please, look at those and comment on those.
I have already said that I agree with you on the over-all numbers. I said it before you said it.
I am discussing the pressure that has built up on this man since he has become a Yankee, and am pointing out how he has performed since the 2004 ALCS.
The 2004 ALCS
Yankees vs. Red Sox.
The 2004 ALCS.
Dave Roberts’ steal.
The 2004 ALCS.
Yankees blow a 3-0 series lead.
That is where I am starting from.
Those 75 at-bats.
Your arguments today have gone from “much better” to “magical” to shrinking 75 at bats down to “2 or 3”.
You keep talking about the 2005 and 2007 seasons, while choosing to ignore the post-season from the 2004 LCS forward.
What you don’t seem to realize is how you are only proving my point with your argument.
A-Rod is outstanding. He is arguably the league’s best player. But, he has buckled under the New York post-season spotlight in recent years.
I’m giving you data to work with - and I know you love data - so please, discuss it.
By rammerjammer
July 24, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this
Re: Francoeur/Kansas City rumors…
KC CF David DeJesus is a guy the Braves have coveted for awhile. Since J. Schafer’s stock has slumped, B. Jones and J. Anderson haven’t impressed and Kotsay won’t be back, the need for a young, proven OF is there. He’s 28, good pop (.822 OPS) and as of two weeks ago was hitting an AL-best .459 with RISP.
Would KC take Francoeur straight up? No. Francoeur, it could be argued, has more upside and is four years younger. Yet, DeJesus is KC’s best player. I think they’d want Francoeur AND a minor league pitcher (Hanson?).
Braves might need to do this, for now and the near future, because other than Schafer, the other OF prospects are at least two years away.
By cbt
July 24, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB, Sorry you didn’t like my opinion and that you lost 30 seconds out of your life. That was my opinion good or bad. I am not a writer and never claimed to be. I was just trying to give my thoughts. I’m sure you will have a “COME BACK” on this to. Oh you got me.
By Renegator
July 24, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this
Tomas
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but if Chipper is out - either Kelly Johnson or Jeff Francoeur will be batting 3rd - NOT Tex or McCann.
That is not a good recipe for beating the Phils or anyone, really. But of course, putting the lineup together in a way that doesn’t make sense - that doesn’t sound like Bobby Cox at all. (hint: sarcasm)
By Tomas
July 24, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this
If the braves don’t sweep the phillies the best choice would be to become sellers. In that case I would trade Tex, Kotsay, and Ohman. But only if the braves sweep the phils.
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 24, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this
agreed with Deep Throat: don’t think Gonzo is going anywhere with Soriano’s arm on the fritz this season.
with the Braves needing offense right now, i don’t see them trading Frenchy to the Royals. the Royals wouldn’t part with DeJesus, and Guillen isn’t an upgrade over Frenchy, really. actually, i take that back… Guillen with one arm might be better than Frenchy lately.
By Frank
July 24, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this
To the blogger who said that he couldn’t remember any big time hits by McGriff…
I remember VERY well the first game McGriff played after he coming from San Diego (which was the Fire Game—-the fire in the broadcast booth/upper part of the stadium).
It was a come-back win against the Cards. McGriff hit the GW HR against Rene Arocha…and ya wanna know something….I called that exact HR.
By Steve from OH
July 24, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
I don’t think Frank Wren will package Francoeur and Hanson for anyone. He’s not going to trade Jeff unless he gets a HUGE return. No way.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 24, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this
rammerjammer,
Frenchy and Hanson for DeJesus? Surely you jest.
Frenchy and a much lower-level prospect, maybe. I wouldn’t sway Hanson for DeJesus straight up. KC would have to add a lot more value to that deal.
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 24, 2008 3:08 PM | Link to this
Renegator -
Your lineup prognostication is probably right. I’d bat Prado second (after Blanco) and hit Yunel third. But Cox’ll probably stick KJ in the 3 hole. W/out Chipper in the lineup and playing in one of the worst pitcher’s parks in baseball, ay caramba… me thinks it is not going to be pretty.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 24, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
I like what a club official told Bowman in response to the inane Gonzo to Texas rumor:
“Gonzalez will not be traded before the deadline or during this off-season unless Texas offers us Josh Hamilton.”
Amen.
By Steve from OH
July 24, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
Jeff’s value is as low as it can be, and he has huge potential. No way he is traded, unless someone is stupid enough to give up way too much for him.
By Doc Holliday
July 24, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
NASCAR Dave
Not so fast………we are close to being done…….but not yet……muts took 2 of 3 from phillies…..we can do so too………lets not forget……….we started as a great team in paper……..and baseball showed us paper means nothing…..let the games be played………..we lose the series………we are done………we win the series……..hope is there……… Muts will face the cards next……….maybe they lose 2 of 3.
Braves really close to sweeping the marlins………that game they lost………could have easily been won……..we are going to a hitters park, maybe thats what our offense needs……
Go Braves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By DAP
July 24, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this
shaun please consider this a different discussion from the “clutch hitter” topic that has been going on all day…based on some of your posts, i just wanted to ask you, dont you think that there are some players who are better at blocking out distractions, the pressure of the situation, ect. and concentrateing on what they are supposed to do? or, do you think everybody, or all athletes have the exact same ability to block out distractions, and pressures of certain situations and do what they are supposed to do?
just wondering what you think.
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 24, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
I also remember McGriff hit a three-run bomb to tie the game in the bottom of the ninth in the pre-strike All-Star game. Dead center field off of Lee Smith. That’s money.
That not good enough for ya??!! How about the home run he hit off of Orel Hershiser in the 95 series in Game 1. Tied the game. Got the crowd into the game (‘cause everybody was thinking, oh no here we lose again). Home run and Maddux great pitching performance totally changed the series and the Indians never really recovered.
Drives me nuts when folks say they can’t remember stuff, as if that means it must actually be true.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 24, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
Renegator,
If Hoss is out for any of the games at Philly it wouldn’t surprise me if Yunel hits third.
vs. righties — Blanco, KJ, Yunel, Tex, Heap, etc.
vs. lefties — Blanco, Infante//Prado, Yunel, Tex, Heap, etc.
By DesiBrave
July 24, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this
hey LT-AA Blogger It is not about optimism or getting on crack here…. I was just helping Lee with a scenario where Braves can still win Division without winning all the 24 games they play against the division. Lee heard that Chip Caray guy saying some crap that Braves have to win all 24 games against the division to just stay where we are.. Shaun and I were helping him out there…..
By Doc Holliday
July 24, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this
I also agree JF should be traded right now………
I dont like him in the lineup everyday though…….
He could be like an earthquake waiting to happen………but braves have to understand they cant wait for him to make a bang playing him everyday………
WHY IS IT SOOOOOOOOOOO TOUGH TO BENCH THIS GUY?
After all………he might deserve playing everyday…….he has been smart enough to manipulate the organization to do as he pleases to.
By TennesseePaul
July 24, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this
Looking at A-Rods numbers in the regular season as a Yankee (source baseball-reference.com)
Now, looking at his post season numbers as a yankee differs from site to site.
On Baseball-Reference.com
From MLB.com we get the following.
And from ESPN.com…
Not exactly fantastic. Not sure which one is correct. I have no intention of pulling up game logs to verify the data. But with two of the sources being fairly close I’m going to say this is probably a good idea of what is going on in the post season with A-Rod in New York.
In summary we have…
Seems like a drop off to me…
By Braveheart
July 24, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, when did your man-crush on Chucky end?
Thrillhouse, it never ended. I’ve just been keeping my bromance with Chucky on the down low.
Braveheart, over-matched in the big leagues or injuries is different from being able to handle pressure situations.
Shaun, that’s ridiculous. Frenchy and Chucky’s problems this season are not just about being overmatched or just being injured. Frenchy and Chucky, for the first time in their lives, are facing real pressure …… and it’s not just silly pressure like a postseason at bat or inning pitched. It’s the most intense pressure any decent big leaguer with a once promising future can feel ….. stinking up the joint and knowing that your career is all of a sudden in serious jeopardy. Neither has handled it well this season. But it;s not surprising that you completely ignore that.
By Doc Holliday
July 24, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this
*BravesFanInRockies *
Braves wont trade Gonzalez …….Period.
Now we have at least 1 piece of the puzzle………..it would be dumb to trade him…………
They now muts have wagner and phillies have lidge……….losing him would be devastating……….our current season is the living proof to it.
By Doc Holliday
July 24, 2008 3:35 PM | Link to this
*BravesFanInRockies *
Agree on batting order
By Whiskey Bent
July 24, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this
Come awn Dobber! Be the first to break the Francoeur to KC for DeJesus!
And didn’t the Braves just offer Jeff a contract and he turned it down again? Not a good move for someone swinging at balls over the moon.
By TennesseePaul
July 24, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this
MLBTradeRumors, Mark Bowman and MLB.com all also say that Mike Gonzalez is completely unavailable.
I think the line from the Braves, in response to the availability of Gonzo, was something like “Look we may be struggling this year but we’re not the Pirates.”
By rammerjammer
July 24, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
Braves fans look at Francoeur and remember 2005-07. Royals management will look at Francoeur 2008 and will have a hard time selling his acquisition to their fans…especially if he costs them DeJesus.
No, if I’m KC, I want a top pitching prospect thrown in or I don’t do the deal. DeJesus epitomizes the phrase “toiling in obscurity,” but he’s a player.
By TheAntiMe
July 24, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
It’s kind of funny sitting here reading all the comments about Bobby Cox being a players oriented manager (which he definitely is) and at the same time I am playing MLB 08: The Show on the Playstation 3. Although I’m hitting about .363 in the game, the virtual Bobby Cox just gave me a hard time about not getting on base often enough. I wonder when the last time the real BC got on one of his guys for not getting on base enough and if it was actually in this century. It kind of made me laugh during these not so winning times in the real world. Hey, it could be worse. At least the Braves aren’t owned by the totally disfunctional Atlanta Spirit Group.
By Mike Hampton's Vajayjay
July 24, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this
Some teams are asking about Gonzo too.*
If Wren trades Gonzo he needs to be institutionalized. He is the closest thing the Braves have had to a true closer since Smoltzy went back to the rotation. Sorry-ano is NOT the closer the Braves need. Fire selling Gonzo would be like fire selling Chipper and Mac. Hell no.
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, Francoeur has been up since 2005. He’s just now feeling pressure? I doubt it.
TennPaul, Sure there is a drop in A-Rod’s numbers in NY in the post-season. But is there so much of a drop that we should assume it’s caused by pressure over other factors?
If it’s pressure in NY, why are his regular seasons better in NY than in other places like Texas?
DAP, I think the best athletes in the world can block out and/or overcome pressure. Sure athletes are different, but I think pressure is such a small factor in athletes that play at the highest level, that those differences don’t make a significant difference in their performance.
I just think if certain athletes did actually perform better or worse in pressure situations than at other times, it would show up clearly and obviously. But I haven’t seen it, so I just don’t see that pressure is much of a factor. I accept I could be wrong but I must go by the evidence that I see at the moment.
For instance, Bonds was known as a choker. Then he had a big 2002 post-season. I just don’t believe he gained or improved his clutch ability between 1997 and 2002.
Okay, it’s obvious some our not going to agree. I’ve given all the reasons for my beliefs and I hope they make sense to people. Can we move on?
By Mike Hampton's Vajayjay
July 24, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this
Heh. I just remembered there isn’t a game tonight. Guess I can stop checking in for DOB’s clubhouse report.
By Knowitall
July 24, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this
For all of you arguing with Shaun, don’t you get it???? He’s only concerned with stats. Since there in no stat to measure heart, desire, or pressure, those things do not exist in his world. You can’t just look at stats in a vacuum which is what he does.
You see he doesn’t understand that the same reason you can’t just take your pitcher with the best ERA on the team is the same reason that you might not want the hitter with highest batting average hitting with 2 outs in the 9th inning. Some guys excel under pressure and some don’t.
By Random
July 24, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this
Hard to believe —
98% say getting Fred McGriff was a good trade;
97% say getting Otis Nixon was a good trade;
“only” 96% say getting John Smoltz was a good trade.
Go figure.
By DesiBrave
July 24, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this
DOB
Just read the Jayson Stark Column on ESPN that Tigers are ready to eat some of Sheffield’s salary and move him for a long term Shortstop and pitching.
Are there any remote chances of getting Sheffield in return of Lillibridge and Ohman maybe?
Will sheffield be of any help to ATL if we turn the tables on phillies this weekend?
By Bill
July 24, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this
If K.C. is really serious, would they go for this? Frenchie,James, Lillibridge, Diaz and B. Jones for Greinke & DeJesus. I think that would be a good trade for both teams.
By Braveheart
July 24, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, Francoeur has been up since 2005. He’s just now feeling pressure? I doubt it.
I’ll stop wasting my time. If you can’t see that the pressure on Francoeur this year is far more intense than in any of his four seasons, you’re either not watching the game or don’t understand what you are watching.
By Ron Roberts
July 24, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this
TennesseePaul… we’re a whole one game better than the Pirates, according to the MLB.com standings.
“We’re not the Pirates” doesn’t really hold much weight.
By David O'Brien
July 24, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this
Just got home after going from airport to a class at our downtown office. No word yet from Braves about Hudson….
Hampton’s uh, whatever: Teams are ASKING about Gonzo. They’re being told he’s not available. So you can end the line of speculation there. He’s affordable (still) next season and gives the Braves either a closer, backup closer or co-closer.
By Steve from OH
July 24, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this
Knowitall:
You must be one of those guys who would take David Eckstein on you team instead of A-Rod, huh?
By David O'Brien
July 24, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this
GT80: You’re right, that would be outstanding (Hampton coming on field to Cash’s cover of “Hurt.”
By TennesseePaul
July 24, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
But is there so much of a drop that we should assume it’s caused by pressure over other factors?
Couldn’t this question be posed no matter what factor is highlighted?
And the statistics say… Apparently Yes! And the search for truth continues.
If it’s pressure in NY, why are his regular seasons better in NY than in other places like Texas?
Have you been to Dallas? It’s like Delta City with more sun light. When I was there last I saw a rogue robocop on a rampage running down the road.
By monty
July 24, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this
Could it be the modern strenth training excercises that are contributing to pulled muscles? Players today pack on so much muscle mass perhaps causing bulky muscles to tighten up when pushed to their limits without proper stretching?
I never heard of Babe Ruth(who was an undisciplined party guy) pulling anything other than his fat self around the bases when he crushed one. I don’t recall the great Hank Aaron being on the DL, I don’t think he lifted weights and he was only 6 ft tall and 185 pounds.
THere was a show on the dicovery channel that showed the center fielder who used to play against us all the time for Arizona I believe, and they filmed him hitting a 90 MPH fastball and timed his swing to the millisecond and then had him swing a weighted bat for a few swings,then timed him again and they proved the swinging a weighted bat in warming up actually slowed his bat speed down, yet you still see players swinging weighted bats in the on deck circle.
Same thing for the golf swing. I am not convinced that for all of Tiger Woods strenth training that he can swing any faster than he did as a Skinny 21 year old.
By Random
July 24, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this
Shaun: “I just think if certain athletes did actually perform better or worse in pressure situations than at other times, it would show up clearly and obviously. But I haven’t seen it, so I just don’t see that pressure is much of a factor. I accept I could be wrong but I must go by the evidence that I see at the moment.”
Shaun: “The simplest way I know to answer the question of whether clutch hitting is actually a skill, is to find a player (who has a meaningful sample of plate appearances in several situations) who consistently performs significantly better in clutch situations than he does overall. So far I haven’t found such a player. And judging by the lack of response when I brought this up twice, I’m guessing no one else has either.”
Shaun: “Again, I challenge anyone to find a player with a sample of say 500 plate appearances in the clutch who was significantly better in clutch situations or significantly worse in clutch situations than he was normally.”
Are these types of statistics kept? How do you define “clutch situation” or “pressure situation” — close and late? Or just close (eg, 2nd inning tie game)? What else?
What performance stats would you credit most — BA/OBP/OPS? RBI percentage? What?
I might have some free time this weekend.
By TennesseePaul
July 24, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this
Ron Roberts: *“We’re not the Pirates” *
That one flew right over your head didn’t it? It was a fast one I guess. I’ll slow it down… the Pirates have a terrible front office. So bad they trade Gonzo for a crappy first baseman that had a two month hot streak to inflate his over all season numbers… OK now, is Gonzo available? “Look we may be struggling this year but we’re not the Pirates.” Baddabing.
By David O'Brien
July 24, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
AuburnBrave: you can be sure that the Royals will be quite interested in Francoeur if he’s available. Dayton Moore’s not just the guy who was Braves farm director when Frenchy was coming up through the Braves’ system, but also remains good friends with him and stays in touch with him.
By bravos2249
July 24, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
Sheff’s BA is bad but his other stats are good considering he’s played 62 games…he said he wasn’t trying to make excuses, but he said he just can’t get into the DH role. Something about how he doesn’t feel part of the game and that he’d like to play on both sides of the ball.
We all know what Chipper can do and we all have seen what he does being a DH…it’s not so good…maybe Sheff has the same problem.
By rammerjammer
July 24, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this
Sheffield is a 39-year-old DH with all of six games in the field, batting .221 with a .696 OPS. No thank you. If Detroit is bent on revenge for the Renteria deal, this would do it.
By timthebrave
July 24, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this
To all the people that blame coaches for Francouer and AJ bad hitting approach. I personally can attest that it is all Terry Pendleton’s fault. I was at the game the other day and I personally overheard TP tell Francouer…”look they just walked the bases loaded. make sure the guy DOESN’T throw a strike. Just hack away…But really go after the curve in the dirt.” I guess I’m a bobby cox apologists because I don’t think it’s the managers fault on this one. Do you really think Bobby Cox and TP haven’t told Frenchy to lay off the high heater and the curve outside? I think Francouer is a young hitter who has always had a major weakness. It just took major league pitchers a year to figure it out. I really hope he can change his approach though. Go Braves
By J.L.
July 24, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
This blog helps the computer dummies.I’ve read several times about the firefox browser.Just installed,Don’t know who to thank,but thanks to all!!!
By JB
July 24, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
Why does everyone want to trade Francoeur right now? His trade value is at the lowest it has been in his entire career. Eventually he will turn things around. We all know it. All these people saying that ‘the book’ is out on him, well wasn’t ‘the book’ out on him in 06 and 07? Everyone had really high expectations for him coming into this year and he got off to a slow start. It got in his head and now he’s trying to go back to the basics and turn things around. He’s not Andruw. He’s not overweight. He’s not old. I believe that he has started to turn things around and has had a lot more productive at bats since he’s been back. He will still strike out on 3 awful pitches from time to time but that’s just who he is. Trading him now would be stupid. The kind of thing that the Mets would do…
By Chop Chop
July 24, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this
Shaun,
You’re putting MLB players on too high of a pedestal. There are varying levels of major league players. Many of them are replaceable. Look at any 25-man roster and tell me that all the players are created equal. As you well know, they aren’t.
Therefore, if all players aren’t created equal, than all players aren’t equally equipped to handle everything that comes their way. You know, because individual people are unique and handle things however they’re wired to handle them.
Whether pressure is a significant factor or not, well, it’s up to each individual player to prove or disprove that. Ed Whitson didn’t handle the pressure of playing in a new city. If a player is capable of moving from one place to another and not maintaining his ability (it wasn’t the ballpark that hurt him, it was the new atmosphere), then it is entirely possible that a player can go from one situation to another in a ballgame and not perform as well.
The key for any GM is to find players who play consistently well, but it is always a bonus when a player takes his game to another level when the pressure is on. When I talk about pressure, just know that I don’t believe all pressure is created equal. Coming to the plate with RISP in the first inning at home is not the same as coming to the plate in close-late situations with RISP in a tie game on the road. Any reasonable person understands that.
As this discussion has evolved, it is quite obvious that this issue is not merely resulting from statistical analysis, Shaun. This is about human psychology. A manager’s job is to manage personalities as well as the game. If a manager consistently puts players in situations that they cannot handle because, for whatever reason, the pressure on them is too great, those players will fail and that manager will eventually be fired.
Bobby Cox will tell you that some players perform better in the clutch than others, Shaun. He’s been in this game for over fifty years. He’s a sure-fire Hall of Famer, so he must not be a complete idiot, right?
(In fact, I wish DOB would ask Bobby about this. It would be amusing.)
By BravesFanInRockies
July 24, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this
I don’t think pressure or clutch abilities (or lack of them) or anything else explains Frenchy’s season. ML pitchers have figured out his weaknesses and he hasn’t adjusted. He can still hit the ball a mile if it’s placed just right and he times his swing perfectly. If it’s not in that zone or his timing is the least bit off, he looks awful.
That has nothing to do with his capacity to handle pressure, which may be superhuman for all any of us know.
By Knowitall
July 24, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this
Steve, I’m not saying that at all. I think A-Rod is a great player and I’d take him over Eckstein any day. All I’m saying is that you can’t completely ignore something just because there is no stat to measure it. Some players are just better when the game is on the line than they are the rest of the game, regardless of the sport.
By Ron Roberts
July 24, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this
Yes, TennPaul… and that trade has TRULY benefitted the much more savvy Braves’ front office, right?
By IgCognito
July 24, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this
The Braves could sweep this weekend and still be 6.5 out. So, even if they play well and sweep the Phils, it doesn’t necessarily get us any closer to first.
If I were a betting man, I would say that they trade Tex, Ohman, and Kotsay by the deadline. No way they trade Gonzo, and I highly doubt they trade Frenchy unless there is a bigger rift between he and the Braves than is known. Of course, if they can get a high ceiling pitcher like Greinke…
By Billy
July 24, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this
NASCAR Dave your 2:44 suggests that you back away from the coffee or at least share the coffee with your therapist.. You are one wound up gearhead.
By TennesseePaul
July 24, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this
Random…
Shaun: “I just think if certain athletes did actually perform better or worse in pressure situations than at other times, it would show up clearly and obviously.”
Shaun: “The simplest way I know to answer the question of whether clutch hitting is actually a skill, is to find a player (who has a meaningful sample of plate appearances in several situations) who consistently performs significantly better in clutch situations than he does overall.”
Shaun: “Again, I challenge anyone to find a player with a sample of say 500 plate appearances in the clutch who was significantly better in clutch situations or significantly worse in clutch situations than he was normally.”
Shaun: “Sure there is a drop in A-Rod’s numbers in NY in the post-season. But is there so much of a drop that we should assume it’s caused by pressure?”
Random, good hunting. But be prepared, the definition and sample size will change if you find anything that could be viewed as a drop off or step up in “clutch” situations. Inevitably though, whatever you do find the follow up will be, sure he sucked there, but was it the pressure or was it the temperature?
Oh, and a lot of the old guys don’t have these splits available. You might just have to go to rotoworld and download the game by game for the past 100+ years and then start your search. Make sure the defining parameters are set in variables so that the next time the definition changes you don’t have to re-write your algorithms.
By the way, does any player have 500 at bats in “clutch” situations? Did the guy still have a thick head of hair after all that? I recall the pressure that was on Marris, he went silver over it all. Perhaps that was his shampoo though because he wore a major league uniform and was therefore immune to the idea of pressure.
By David O'Brien
July 24, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
There will be no update on Huddy or Chipper until tomorrow, according to e-mail Braves PR man just sent out.
By Ron Roberts
July 24, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
And while we’re comparing ourselve to the Pirates and looking at that trade, TennPaul, let us all count the games LaRoche has missed since that deal. Hell, he’s no Mark Texeira, but he’s doing about what he’s always done… hit around .270-.280 and hit 20 HRs while playing good defense.
The Braves’ brass, on the other hand, who are not the Pirates, sent that 1B to Pittsburgh for a guy who had a good season but had elbow concerns as we traded for him.
Hey, had Gonzo not gone on the DL and needed Tommy John, it’s a great trade for the Braves. But he was dealing with an injury when we made the move, so it’s not like his going down came from outta nowhere.
I’m just saying we are no longer the 14-division titles Braves with that air of superiority; to have the attitude that we can be “above” the likes of the Pirates is kinda silly superficiality, to me. We’re not playing any better, and of late, haven’t dealt all that much better, either.
By Kentavo
July 24, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this
Here’s a trade scenario if the Bravos decide they’re not out of it:
Lillibridge, Chuck James and Kotsay
to Tigers for Renteria and Sheffield.
Move Edgar to 2B and Shef to Left.
Offense automatically fixed.
By TennesseePaul
July 24, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this
Ron Roberts: Perhaps your sarcasm is an attempt to equate the Braves front office with the Pirates?? I’ll admit, that last comment flew over my head. Care to elaborate?
By Bobby's Cox
July 24, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this
Joining in on today’s discussion….
This team needs clutch hitters - obviously. The best way to look at clutch hitters is to look at players numbers with men on base. Do players get hits with men on base, i.e. do they get rally’s going, move runners over with men on base with hits or walks (BA, OBP, etc…).
2 weeks ago when we were discussing Bay & Nady, I said Nady would be better for this team because his numbers are superior to Bay’s with men on base, something this team lacks. Likewise, there’s players from within, specifically in AAA that have hit good this year with runners on. They include Canizares, Diory Hernandez, and Josh Anderson. Good numbers with runners on in AAA, yet unproven at the big league level. Obviously the trade route is better.
Bay seems a little Tex-ish, if you will, with runners on base, in that his overall numbers are good, better than Nady’s, but has less superior stats with runners on & with RISP.
BA with runners on is a good stat to look at, IMO.
By Graham
July 24, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this
Despite his year-long struggles and his minor rift with the Braves, I highly doubt Francouer will be traded. The Braves have invested too much money in marketing Francouer. In order to trade him, they would need to get a huge return. His struggles will not allow any team with any type of leverage to deal for him. KC could not give back what the Braves have already invested.
Francouer’s problem is psychological (yes, I know that it has already been stated, but I am using it to make my point). A trade, I believe, especially mid-season, would destroy him completely. Rarely has anyone from the Braves gone to KC and thrived, with the exception of a few: i.e. Jermaine Dye.
That being said, I hope that he can get it together and prove people wrong. Hey, I am for the underdog, which is why I am still rooting for the Braves to go on a tear!
By Bobby's Cox
July 24, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this
Projected blogger nicknames of potential trade candidates if they don’t produce in Atlanta:
Jason Bay = Jason Gay
Nady = Jadey
Loney = Phony
Kotchman = Crotchman
Brandon Wood = Woodcrap 2
By Lew
July 24, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this
Shaun-I knew that would get your mouth foaming, but you’re missing my point entirely. Whether or not I give much credence to any of your beloved stats has nothing whatsoever to what I’m trying to say. THAT’S why I wanted you to avoid them when viewing my argument.
For almost the entire season so far, Francoeur has been blamed for destroying the Braves’ season singlehandedly by many here on the blog. They don’t like his aggressiveness. They don’t like the pitches he swings at. They don’t like his approach at the plate. They don’t like the press he gets. They don’t like anything he says, anything he does or his response to any situation. They want him gone, whether banished to Dante’s Ninth Hell (or A ball, anyway) or they want him traded. He has not just been in a slump, but has deteriorated to the point of no return.
All along I’ve tried to point out that (as you have said numerous times yourself) that past performance is the best indicator of future performance. As an example of Francoeur’s worth (not to mention his youth, duration of club contractual control and inexpensive current contract), I pointed out that he had led all hitters in MLB in two out RBI for the two full seasons of his career.
Now that is a fact. Whether or not he grounded into double plays .635998777660% of the time, or has a VORP of any particular value, or an OPS+ park adjusted % equal to the value of Pi squared is totally irrelevant to my point, which is that he has been successful in the past and could very well be so again and we would be And Idiots to trade him for nothing (which is about what I would consider a trade for Nady to be).
I’ve never claimed he was having a stand out season, was the best hitter in all of baseball in whatever you choose to consider clutch situations. I stated a fact that should, in and of itself, stand on it’s own to show he still has much value and could succeed like that yet again. More clarification or abject dissection of his total offensive output was just not necessary in this situation.
However, you probably don’t want to know my thoughts on BaBIP or badabing or whatever the hell that one is.
By Drew
July 24, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this
Thank God I didn’t see that Francoeur AB last night…
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 24, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this
Ron Roberts, totally agree with that last paragraph. Well put. And interestingly enough, I think that the Pirates are trying to change how the rest of the league thinks about them, too. Which is partly why they are taking such a beating from the GMs and brass around the league for “asking too much” for Nady, Bay, etc.
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this
By the way, does any player have 500 at bats in “clutch” situations? Did the guy still have a thick head of hair after all that? I recall the pressure that was on Marris, he went silver over it all. Perhaps that was his shampoo though because he wore a major league uniform and was therefore immune to the idea of pressure.
I didn’t say he was immune to pressure. But did it affect his performance? He still hit 61, didn’t he?
By N9
July 24, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this
let the stinchie to KC bandwagon begin!!! could this really happen?
By Ron Roberts
July 24, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this
I elaborated plenty, TP. Any sarcasm you detected came on the heels of your attempt to “slow it down” and talk down to somebody. Wasn’t called for. You believe the Braves have operated a notch above the likes of the Pirates of late, and I disagree.
From the early 90s to, say, 2002 or so, sure; since then, eh, the results don’t bear fruit to your way of thinking, in my opinion.
By Shaun
July 24, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this
You’re putting MLB players on too high of a pedestal.
I’m not the one saying that certain players have more heart, desire, etc. than the rest of us “peons.” That something in a human being’s character that makes him a professional athlete; that something inside of them is better than the rest of us “peons”, not that they can run faster, react quicker, are bigger and stronger.
By brent a.
July 24, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this
Graham,
The money spent on marketing Jeff Francoeur is a sunk cost.
You can’t let dollars you spent in the past, impact the decisions you make for the future. It’s bad economics.
The decision to keep or trade Francoeur will be made based upon what they can expect to get out of him going forward, not marketing dollars spent in the past.
By Braveheart
July 24, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this
I don’t think pressure or clutch abilities (or lack of them) or anything else explains Frenchy’s season. ML pitchers have figured out his weaknesses and he hasn’t adjusted.
If his struggles were merely limited to hitting, I would agree. But there has been a very noticeable decline in his running, throwing and fielding as well. This tells you it’s not about a simple inability to adjust. There is a deadly combination of mental and physical factors taking their toll on him at the bat and in the field. .
By TennesseePaul
July 24, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this
Ron Roberts: The current struggles not withstanding, I don’t think the Braves front office has been anywhere near as bad as the Pirates. Take the last 3 years (including this one)… no division titles for the Braves, but at least 1 winning season and no less than 79 wins. Now the Pirates on the other hand have just surpassed the total wins for the previous 2 seasons, they have 68 this season after only 67 the previous 2 seasons.
As for the trade… the initial post was merely that this team is not willing or has no desire to dispense of a valuable closer. But if you would like to go back to that trade, LaRoche, at the time of the trade, had a career season. A 130 OPS+. He hasn’t topped 108 in any other season. In return the Braves got 2 players. One injured, but very good and the other young. The Pirates received mediocrity with a ton of K’s and just now broached the 67 win mark. If they can get to 80 wins it’d be the most they’ve had since 1993. Superficial I suppose, but the Braves have a long way to go before they are as lowly as the Pirates.
By N9
July 24, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this
well mlbtraderumors are all over braves players today! apprently ohman is a huge interest to many. At this point its safe to say ohman will be traded no matter what! thx for your hard work will.
By David O'Brien
July 24, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this
Graham, a trade of Francoeur, if it’s even considered, would likely be an offseason thing. Not a trade-deadline thing.
And again, I’ve not heard it’s being seriously discussed. Just wouldn’t rule it out down the road.
By Ron Paul for President
July 24, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this
Kentavo, your post at 4:56PM is dumb.
The Tigers are reportedly thinking of RELEASING Renteria.
Sheffield is having an awful season. Probably his career-worst.
And you want to trade young, cheap and valuable players in Lillibridge and James and a guy (Kotsay) who the Tigers don’t even need to get them…and then move them both out of position (Renteria to second, Sheffield from DH/RF to Right)?
Where does Kelly Johnson go (the bench?) to make room for an old, declining Renteria?
Insanity. Thank God you’re not the Braves’ GM. You fail.
By THWG
July 24, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this
Kentavo- Doubtful at best. I can’t see the Tigers giving up their end of a STEAL for the Braves with JJ for an aging center fielder with a bad back (who probably won’t play more than 75 games next year) and a SS that hasn’t shown being any more capable than their current SS, who they’d be giving up. While I think we do need some offense if we decide to become contenders, I’m afraid that Sheffield’s .221 average this year (not to mention his .365 Slugging %) is simply not going to cut it. We might as well have 3 JFs in the outfield if we are going to trade for those kinds of numbers. That would most certainly be a revenge trade after getting JJ from them.
By ernesto
July 24, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this
Bobby’s Unit - Jason Gay???? Really???
Well I guess it goes with the wit of the handle.
By rammerjammer
July 24, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this
KC might be interested in Francoeur, but what they really need is a first baseman. Adam LaRoche is a Kansas boy. Atlanta needs a corner outfielder and likes Nady. Is there a three-way trade in there somewhere?
By Robert S
July 24, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this
IgCognito, that’s just the thing about the Braves - there’s so much secrecy behind the scenes that one on the outside doesn’t really know which way is up.
I was shocked to see that the Braves are offering Francoeur up as a trade possibility, if the rumor is true. One’s gotta think it’s more front office disgust with Francoeur’s very public rebuke of the Braves (and let’s face it - his performance) than it is an attempt to move Francoeur just for the sake of giving him a “fresh start” a la Kyle Davies.
The Braves inquired about Jose Guillen, but the Royals want a top prospect and another piece, meaning Gorkys Hernandez and a moderate prospect, and given Jordan Schafer’s struggles in AA, the Braves aren’t going to trade Hernandez.
If a Frenchy to K.C. trade goes down, the Braves would likely get David Dejesus (a .300 hitter with few strikeouts), but I’m sure it wouldn’t be a straight up one-for-one deal.
I’m really intrigued by the Tex to Arizona rumor, with Conor Jackson being the centerpiece, along with some other prospects. That might help the Braves this year - a case of buying and selling at the same time, selling Tex while gaining another .300 hitter with slightly less power but who strikes out only half as much as Tex. Contact hitters are exactly what Los Bravos need. Max Scherzer would also be a nice pickup in a Tex to Arizona deal, but I’m not sure how desperate the D’Backs are to get Tex. Guess we’ll find out soon…
And with the intense interest in Will Ohman, the Braves could ostensibly trade Frenchy, Tex, and Ohman in the matter of a week and possibly improve the ballclub this year, while keeping an eye cocked towards 2009.
Oh, and Kentavo - you’re usually right on, but the Braves won’t go after Renteria and Sheffield. I imagine the Braves want young, established major league talent for Tex and Ohman, and possibly Frenchy if the trade rumors involving him are true.
By ObiWanKobe
July 24, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this
DOB & GT80 I think R.E.M.’s “Everybody Hurts” (some times…) would be a better choice.
By Chop Chop
July 24, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this
10Paul,
In case you didn’t know…
Chuck Norris had cancer. Major League ballplayers cured it.
Major League ballplayers can lead a horse to water AND can make it drink.
A Major League ballplayer’s hand is the only hand that can beat a Royal Flush.
Major League ballplayers do not read books. They stare them down until they get the information they want.
Corky Miller CAN believe it’s not butter.
A Major League ballplayer has the greatest poker face of all-time. One player won the 1983 World Series of Poker, despite holding only a Joker, a “Get Out Of Jail Free” Monopoly card, a 2 of clubs, 7 of spades and a green #4 card from the game UNO.
Pete Orr once swallowed an entire bottle of sleeping pills. They made him blink.
Jeff Francoeur played Russian Roulette with a fully loaded gun and won.
Ryan Langerhans once pulled out a single hair from his beard and skewered three men through the heart with it.
If, at first, you don’t succeed, you’re not Chris Resop.
Thanks to Chuck Norris Facts for nearly all the info used in this post.
By Gil In Mechanicsville
July 24, 2008 5:31 PM | Link to this
Kentavo I bet you still have a lot of value for that Chevy Lumina you’re driving too… What in this world would make you think Detroit would even consider such a lopsided deal???
By Gil In Mechanicsville
July 24, 2008 5:37 PM | Link to this
With so much money coming off the books next year, it would not surprise me in the least for the Braves to hang on to Tex one more year by offering him arbitration this fall and keeping him.
Braves are not poor, they can sign anyone they want. They just are not known for throwing money around like a couple of teams that reside in the northeast…
With some of the rookie pitchers making a splash, they may not feel compelled to sign a big free agent.
By JC FROM UT
July 24, 2008 5:43 PM | Link to this
DOB: What are you thoughts on the Francouer trade speculation? Do these reports have any merit?
By Doc Holliday
July 24, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this
Technically Braves odds of making the playoffs are around 12%………….thats not too much………..but at least is not 0%
By TennesseePaul
July 24, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this
Ron Roberts: Perhaps you are right. The slowing it down comment was a bit rude, but wasn’t really meant in a tone of talking down. I apologize.
However, I’m not sure where you can view the front office of the Braves as poorly as the Pirates…
The Braves’ brass, on the other hand, who are not the Pirates, sent that 1B to Pittsburgh for a guy who had a good season but had elbow concerns as we traded for him
Gonzo had 3 good seasons prior to that trade. The Pirates traded a guy who had 3 good seasons for a guy who had a good season. They hedged a bet that LaRoche had a true “break out” year and was on his way to multiple 30+ homer seasons. The bet didn’t pay off. Gonzo on the other hand hasn’t had a full season in the majors with an ERA+ less than 153. And he’s still got his consecutive saves streak alive. He’s a really, really, really, really, really, ridiculously good pitcher. Perhaps there is more to life than that. Ha!
Any who, I liked that trade even knowing the injury. At that time the team also picked up Soriano and already had Tubby. That was three closers. They were banking on a solid 1-2-3 bull pen. One of those went down, one ate his way out of the teams graces and the other one did alright. I just don’t see that LaRoche trade as a bad deal.
As for the current front office of the Pirates, perhaps they will be better. I appreciate the high cost they’ve put on the players they have. They need to do it if they want the players to have pride in the team.
By Ron Roberts
July 24, 2008 5:52 PM | Link to this
That’s cool, Tenn,… but we’re not gonna agree on our assessments, though, man. I just don’t see us above the Pirates, operationally, of late.
By Goat Horns
July 24, 2008 5:54 PM | Link to this
The Braves should not trade Frenchy.
True he has stunk it up both offensively and defensively this year but he still has a world of potential, has two 100-RBI years in the majors, a gold glove, and is only 24 years old.
The rule of thumb is buy low sell high.
Right now Frenchy is about as low as you can get. What would we get for him? A middle of the road prospect at best. The player we would get for him would not have near the upside, potential, or pedigree of Frenchy.
Frenchy has a lot more chance to help the Braves in the future than anyone we will get for him in a trade at this point.
We need to hang on to him and bring him to Spring Training next season with a chance to win a spot on the team.
The management of the Braves needs to grow a pair and send him to Richmond for the rest of the season. (Not to Mississippi where he will be told how great he is). He can come back up in September if he does well in Richmond.
We should replace him with Jason Perry and/or Josh Anderson for the remainder of the season to see what they can do.
Frenchy’s career is at a crossroads; but he is far too talented to give up on for a middle of the road prospect. Lets not give him away just because we are frustrated!
By Chop Chop
July 24, 2008 5:56 PM | Link to this
Gil,
Tex is not going to accept an arbitration offer from the Braves and sign a one-year deal. He is going to sign a big, long-term deal because he’s in the prime of his career…and because Scott Boras is not stupid.
Unfortunately, I don’t think that the Braves are in a position to just “sign anyone they want.” They’re about to be out of the playoffs for the third season in a row. Bobby Cox is about to retire. Chipper Jones will be 37 next year. Smoltz is probably done. They’re rebuilding without openly admitting that they’re rebuilding, which ends up frustrating the holy hell of a lot of fans who can’t imagine this glorious franchise having to slum it for a while.
Anyway, the Braves’ organizational sleight-of-hand isn’t (or shouldn’t be) fooling anyone, so why would any player take less money (which is what Tex would be doing by accepting a one-year deal) to stay in/come to a rebuilding situation? It just doesn’t make much sense.
By TennesseePaul
July 24, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this
Chop Chop: Thank you. That’s some good stuff.
By Melly
July 24, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this
I’m glad some of you mentioned Jermaine Dye in comparision to Francour. Like many of you, I’m down on Jeff’s “Andrew Jones” impression this season, but I still feel he has great promise. A quick look at his stats vs. Dye’s early career stats show they are travelling down very similar paths. If anything, Jeff’s stats are better. I don’t think a trade for Jeff is warranted unless it’s a package with Tex for Connor Jackson and one of the D’backs talented young OF’s like Young or Upton.
By Random
July 24, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this
TennesseePaul: “Random, good hunting. But be prepared, the definition and sample size will change if you find anything that could be viewed as a drop off or step up in “clutch” situations. Inevitably though, whatever you do find, the follow up will be, sure he sucked there, but was it the pressure or was it the temperature?”
Thanks, TP.
Pretty funny, that last line. But converting from temperature to pressure and back won’t slow me down none — I’ll just use Boyle’s Law, provided I can keep the volume of his gas constant. Perhaps easier said than done.
I do consider myself duly warned.
PS: how ‘bout our boys from Walters State, huh!!! My sister used to work for the state out there a couple days a week.
PPS: It’s actually Gay-Lussac’s Law, but that just don’t roll off the tongue as easy. Anyway, they’re both just different expressions of the Ideal Gas Law, perhaps soon to be renamed Shaun’s Law.
By Melly
July 24, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this
I’m glad some of you mentioned Jermaine Dye in comparision to Francour. Like many of you, I’m down on Jeff’s “Andrew Jones” impression this season, but I still feel he has great promise. A quick look at his stats vs. Dye’s early career stats show they are travelling down very similar paths. If anything, Jeff’s stats are better. I don’t think a trade for Jeff is warranted unless it’s a package with Tex for Connor Jackson and one of the D’backs talented young OF’s like Young or Upton.
By Melly
July 24, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this
I’m glad some of you mentioned Jermaine Dye in comparision to Francour. Like many of you, I’m down on Jeff’s “Andrew Jones” impression this season, but I still feel he has great promise. A quick look at his stats vs. Dye’s early career stats show they are travelling down very similar paths. If anything, Jeff’s stats are better. I don’t think a trade for Jeff is warranted unless it’s a package with Tex for Connor Jackson and one of the D’backs talented young OF’s like Young or Upton.
By Melly
July 24, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this
I’m glad some of you mentioned Jermaine Dye in comparision to Francour. Like many of you, I’m down on Jeff’s “Andrew Jones” impression this season, but I still feel he has great promise. A quick look at his stats vs. Dye’s early career stats show they are travelling down very similar paths. If anything, Jeff’s stats are better. I don’t think a trade for Jeff is warranted unless it’s a package with Tex for Connor Jackson and one of the D’backs talented young OF’s like Young or Upton.
By i cant take it anymore
July 24, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this
ron paul giving it to the people straight! kentvo?, you just got supersoaked.
By AZBravoFan
July 24, 2008 6:09 PM | Link to this
Melly No way the D’backs part with Upton. Young, while an exciting player is a strikeout machine. I don’t think Braves fans have the stomach for any more of that at this point. I know I don’t. Co-jack (as we call him out here) would be nice though.
By brent a.
July 24, 2008 6:11 PM | Link to this
So Melly,
Please share us your thoughts about the Francoeur-Jermain Dye comparison.
:)
By BravesFanInRockies
July 24, 2008 6:19 PM | Link to this
As I said yesterday, if I had a reliable crystal ball I’d hang out in the Vegas sports books.
And if I knew that Francouer’s career would be more like JD’s than Cory Snyder’s, then I’d say by all means, keep him. At this point, though, his career path could go either way. And besides, Dye was on the KC-to-Omaha shuttle frequently AFTER spending a full year in Atlanta and a good deal of time in Kansas City.
Frenchy’s had to learn in the big leagues.
By Why Us
July 24, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this
For some out there still enamored with Edgar Renteria & Gary Sheffield you possibly haven’t kept up the going ons this season in Motown.
The Tigers are seriously considering releasing Edgar so why would we give them anything but a low minor leaguer if he is actually DFA’d. Consider this: scouting reports are he is NO longer a major league SS, his play has been that abysmal this year. He is on line for possibly his worst year aveage wise. Also, he has only 6 doubles so far this year, remember when he use to be a doubles machine. The only way the Braves should get him is if they give up someone with no chance ever of making the Braves team & then with the idea of Edgar might be a better PH than Gotay. He would only play backup at 1B, (if Tex is gone) & possibly backup 2B. He is no longer able to cover any ground at SS.
Now about Sheff. Tigers are also looking to dump him. He is only useful as a DH anymore. Shoulder problems & who knows what other problems he has but scouting reports say he is no longer belongs in the OF. He’s hitting .221, on pace for 11 hrs & 38 rbis. Braves have no use for a DH who hitting below the Norton line.
Just because they once were players no longer means they still are!
By Doc Holliday
July 24, 2008 6:28 PM | Link to this
Please stop that Frenchy trade rumor…………he is not going anywhere…………as somebody mentioned earlier……..he has no trade value right now…….its like trying to trade smoltz, hampton or glavine at this moment or even chipper………….they are injured………nobody would give us their worth……….
By Jamie in Richmond
July 24, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this
Because in a season of shocking developments, the most unbelievable to me is still how Brayan Pena lost his job to Corky Miller. I’ve gone ahead and done a little digging on Brayan’s numbers at AAA Omaha (and before anyone tells me it’s not comparable, ask yourself if you really dont think BP could hit .100 in the majors when he was hitting .286 and leading the bench in battaing average before he was released). Check this out: I did a little digging and found B.P.’s stats to date, with KC’s AA team in Omaha. Check this out:
In 25 games, Brayan has had 100 at bats. In those at bats he’s hitting .310 with an OBP of .367. He has 9 doubles and a triple, and 14 RBI. Toss in that he also has 3 steals out of 4 attempts AND….in 100 at bats, he has only struck out 6 times.
For the hell of it, lets compare his numbers with Corkless. Miller has played in 23 games and has 47 at bats. Allow me to do the math. At his current pace, if Miller were to find his way to 100 ab’s, he’d project to 0 doubles, 0 triples, 0 steals, 6 RBI, and 26 strikeouts.
Again, at a projected pace of ab’s: Brayan: 9 doubles Corky: 0 doubles Brayan: 1 triple Corky: 0 triples Brayan: 3 steals Corky: 0 steals Brayan: 14 RBI Corky: 6 RBI Brayan: 6 strikeouts Corky: 26 strikeouts
I’ll never understand this, nor why more hasnt been made of it, as long as I live.
By SNIPER-69
July 24, 2008 6:37 PM | Link to this
Has a decision been made yet on whether the braves are sellers or buyers? Mets take 2 of 3 from the Phillies to take sole possesion of 1st place . Didn’t I tell you D!ck Holliday that the METS would make their move about 15-20 games ago and you just sarcasticlly disagreed. I TOLD YOU!!. The only role the braves will have come september is spoiler.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 24, 2008 6:39 PM | Link to this
brent a,
Not presuming to speak for Melly, but from the time they signed pro contracts up through age 24, Dye and Frenchy had very similar numbersin the majors and the minors. Dye spent less time in the minors before reaching the majors but played about half and half in each until age 25. Then he had a breakthrough year .294/.354/.526, with 27 HR/119 RBI and 96 runs scored.
His career took off from there. That’s the comparison. Plus the fact that they have similar body types (though Dye was much skinnier than Frenchy as a young player).
By Why Us
July 24, 2008 6:42 PM | Link to this
Hold the presses. This this in, from the Kansas City Sentinel:
Royals have made a TWIN offer for Jeffy.
Since Huddy may miss some time they offered an up coming pitcher. Also, since the Braves are having backup C problems they’ll include a catcher in the package.
They offered for JF:
P—-T. Pena
C—-B. Pena
.
By Chop Chop
July 24, 2008 6:42 PM | Link to this
Why Us,
If the Tigers were to decide to trade Renteria at the deadline (they won’t cut him because Edgar’s a free agent this offseason and the Tigers are still in the hunt), expect Edgar to end up in the National League. He’s been below-average at best in his time in the AL.
I think the Dodgers could use Edgar Renteria (Nomar’s oft-injured and Furcal probably won’t be back). I wouldn’t even be surprised to see Edgar return to the Cardinals.
By Bobby's Cox
July 24, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this
ernesto
could be jason shea maybe? As in, is secretly a player of the mets, conspiratorially? But then, i don’t think the new stadium will be called shea.
Jason no time of Day, Jason Clay (if he bounces into a lot of DP’s), Jason May if he only hits in May, Jason Nay Nay, Jason can’t Play, Jason not even worth a stack of Hay….
I don’t know…help me out here.
By N8
July 24, 2008 6:53 PM | Link to this
Chop Chop
Well done with the Chuck Norris “facts”. I always laugh when I read those, and you just gave them a new twist.
Bravo.
By THWG
July 24, 2008 6:57 PM | Link to this
Gil in Mechanicsville- MY ‘95 Lumina has been sitting in my driveway for 6 months with a shotty transmission. But even I know that it’s worthless… but I’d take it over Frenchy any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
By David O'Brien
July 24, 2008 7:00 PM | Link to this
The Braves posted a 1,402-903 record — 499 games over .500 — from the beginning of the 1991 season through July 31, 2005.
They are 240-242 since Aug. 1, 2005.
By fastasballs
July 24, 2008 7:05 PM | Link to this
For the love of God would some of you people learn to spell Andruw Jones correctly? How can you follow a team & a player for a decade & still not know the spelling of his name?
As far as comparing careers between Frenchy & Andruw it’s not even close. Frenchy couldn’t carry Andruw’s jock even if Andruw stuck out for the next 5 straight seasons.
Frenchy has zero trade value right now unless some GM is convinced his coaches can “fix” him. May as well keep him for now, he’s cheap regardless. If the Braves traded him now & he went on to have a great career we would never hear the end of it from the “I told you so” crowd & they would be correct for once.
Wren may just squeeze more out of Tex & Ohman than we could imagine him doing. Seems a lot of interest is brewing for both of them & maybe, just maybe get a prospect for Kotsay.
That would still be a decent amount of money from their contracts that the Braves would save. I have no idea if it would go into next year’s club or not. It would be nice even though it wouldn’t be a huge amount of money, but it might buy a few bench players not named Woodward, Orr, Gotay or Miller.
The Braves will need to find some power bats to play 1B, CF & LF for next season as well as maybe RF depending on Frenchy’s direction. Schaefer has tanked & unless he has some great spring next year I wouldn’t expect him on the roster.
Maybe they get some in trades & other by free agency, but none are coming out the minors because there really isn’t anyone ready to go right now. Lots of promising guys at the lower levels that will be ready in future seasons.
This team will have a total different look next season & hopefully a new direction. Too much treading water the past 3 years, blame it what or whoever you want, but the bottom line is they have not been very good.
By Why Us
July 24, 2008 7:10 PM | Link to this
CHOP CHOP
I think you’re right about him coming back to NL. He’s definately more a NL type player.
But, the fact remains that the scouting reports are saying he’s no longer a capable SS on a daily basis. Wouldn’t mind seeing him come back to Braves, but, as a backup/PH role. Is that possible?
Everything I’ve seen on the Dodgers is they need/want a SS ready to play now but prefer to get a younger one if possible since their possible deal for Guzman fell apart. How desparate will they be at the deadline?
Who knows? Would a Tex plus Lil for Loney & others look intriguing to them? Do we want to send Lil packing?
Biggest problem with the Dodgers right now seems to be the owner & others besides the GM are getting invloved in possible deals & it’s muddling things up—-ie—it cost them getting CC Sabathia because they couldn’t all agree. They also can’t agree internally as to which prospects they want to keep & which should be dealt in deals.
By LT-AA Blogger
July 24, 2008 7:18 PM | Link to this
Why us? Was that trade announcement an attempt at humor (seriously)? If it was, it was pretty lame. Also, you should at least get the name of the paper correct.
By Baby Bellhorn
July 24, 2008 7:21 PM | Link to this
33-25 with a 3.16 ERA in 358 innings when Campillo, Hudson, Jurrjens and Smoltz start.
15-28 with a 5.54 ERA in 213 innings with Glavine, James, JoJo, Morton and Bennett.
Poor hitting and poor pitching (once again!) from the back end of the rotation has sunk the battleship.
By bravos2249
July 24, 2008 7:23 PM | Link to this
* DOB*
So basically since FRENCHY started playing everyday the Braves have a losing record?
By BravesFanInRockies
July 24, 2008 7:32 PM | Link to this
bravos2249,
Touche.
By David O'Brien
July 24, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this
Bravos2249: well, that’s one way of looking at it, I guess.
By Shamus Thacker
July 24, 2008 7:39 PM | Link to this
Stenchy should play winter ball when the time comes. Of course he’d refuse, after a good cry that is.
By Dr. Feelgood
July 24, 2008 7:44 PM | Link to this
I wonder how the Dodger fans spell Andruw?
By bravos2249
July 24, 2008 7:45 PM | Link to this
DOB
well I was just guessing why you mentioned it….what’s another way IYO?
By GSU-Lee
July 24, 2008 7:46 PM | Link to this
Frenchy is not to blame for all of the Braves losses. You would think after reading some of the posts that some people are just out to get him. I personally would not trade him. He is affordable and by his own standards having a bad year. Give the kid a chance to bounce back.
By British Soccer Fan
July 24, 2008 7:51 PM | Link to this
Any word on Frenchy’s golf game?
Does he try to shoot higher scores so he can take more bloody swings on the pitch?
By David O'Brien
July 24, 2008 7:51 PM | Link to this
I talked to Frank Wren just before last night’s first pitch, and used some quotes from him in story I just filed.
Here’s some I didn’t use, just some odds and ends:
“You want to watch a team play that you know is the best team you can put out on the field, and that hasn’t happned very often,” he said, referring to the injuries.
On the fading postseason hopes: “I don’t think there’s anbody ready to give up, that’s clearly the feeling ot the players and that’s our feleing. None of us are ready to give it up.”
But he also said it’s a daily assessment at this point, not a “magic number” of games behind or whatever, that will determine if they are buyers or sellers (or, I guess, maybe a little both).
He said the conversations he’s had with teams have gone from parameters and broad ideas to more specifics, with each team
“I think clubs start talking more specifically now, I’ve seen that. We had our general conversations aroud the All-Star break, now calls are becoming more specific.”
OK, now this is just me talking: I’ve got a gut feeling that one of the West teams is going to be Tex’s next home: Arizona or one of the L.A. teams. I think all three are in this big, and Braves are going to hold on long as they can to make sure no team has an injury that suddenly makes Tex a must-have that a team would be willing to raise its offer to land.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 24, 2008 8:08 PM | Link to this
Well, this is interesting, if true:
Da Mutts are backing offtheir pursuit of Nady and instead more interested in Raul Ibanez or Casey Blake.
Ibanez and Blake are useful but also in their mid-30s. This also says that them Mutts don’t have much left in the minors to offer, or at least not much more they can afford to surrender to pick up a corner OF.
By Shamus Thacker
July 24, 2008 8:11 PM | Link to this
I’m not saying we should trade Stenchy, but I think he’d bring more in a trade than some of you believe. I’m sure lots of teams think THEIR batting coach, and/or manager, could straighten him out pronto.
Whadda you think DOB?
By RedEyedAndBlue
July 24, 2008 8:13 PM | Link to this
Good blog post, DOB (about Frank Wren comments).
If Braves can maneuver to get Kotchman, Loney, or Jackson (latter very unlikely, so I’ve read) +1 for Tex, then I’d call it a good day at the office for Wren. Particularly like Kotchman. Dude’s only struck out 23 times this season in a full-time roll. At his young age with that kind of plate discipline, he’ll eventually develop into a monster player, imo.
I’m only recently realizing the tremendous let down I’ve experienced between the trade deadline last season when I thought Tex was McGriff and now when Tex is more like… Gary Sheffield or J.D. Drew or even Kenny Lofton. I mean I really thought he was going to be “a Braves” and help recharge the Braves into a contender. Not that their failures to this point are all his fault. By no means do I mean that. Just hasn’t really worked out with Tex.
By Shamus Thacker
July 24, 2008 8:15 PM | Link to this
Doesn’t matter what the Muts do, they’ll flop in the end. They’ve tasted it, now it’s in their blood.
By fastasballs
July 24, 2008 8:27 PM | Link to this
DOB Good info from Wren. I think the West teams have the most to offer in return, at least as far as a 1st baseman. Kotch, Looney or Jackson I would assume would be the center piece of returns for the Braves if Tex goes to one of those teams. Either of those guys could end up as a decent guy for first. If they didn’t pan out Freeman should be ready in a few years if he keeps it up.
I’d still still love to see them get Youk, but that’s probably a long shot at best.
It looks like a bidding war will insue for Ohman, which is good for the Braves.
As you say Tex would bring some serious loot if an injury took place to one of the contenders 1st baseman.
By Mike
July 24, 2008 8:41 PM | Link to this
Wanna play a game?
Okay…your Frank Wren and Liberty has just called and said…”to bad about this season…but, we are gonna give you between 25-30 mill more to make it happen next year”. What do you do? It has to be reasonable. You cant say stuff like fire Bobby, or sign A-Rod, because of contracts…and its my game.
Here’s what I do…
Pitchers:
Smoltz (assuming he is ready to go as a starter)
Huddy
Sheets (sign him in the offseason)
Tommy (also assuming he is ready and wants to come back)
JJ
I know, I know…we tried the geriatric club, and it didnt work. But Smoltz has been solid and fairly dependable lately, and honestly…if he wants back…he gets it. And Tommy would be a solid #4 and his injury was his 1st ever. Thats an all-star rotation, and honestly…if we do suffer injuries, we have a capable Morton and Jo-Jo seasoning themselves in the minors (and Campy in the bulpen as you will see) for 1 more year until Smoltz and Tommy retire. Which would give you a competitive rotation in 2010.
Okay on to the bullpen:
Gonzo & Soriano (have them duke it out for the closer role)
Moylan
Ohman (he is a stud lefty…sign him)
Campy
Bennett
Buddy
(and if you are gonna have a 13 man pitching staff…then make it Acosta)
The LINE-UP!!!!!
Blanco-Center (give Schafer another year to get his stuff back…he’s struggling now, and who knows what with the HGH thing.)
Escobar-SS
Chipper-3rd
Tex-1st (dont trade him…or trade him and then tell him you are gonna sign him in the off-season) We need to make him a good offer & get him. If we have the $, do it because he will be worth it. Yes he was slower than usual to start the year and I pulled out about as much hair as anyone…but he has proven to be a stud 1st baseman and clean-up hitter. Plus…who is gonna replace him? If you could get Prince…then okay.)
Okay… here goes…
Holliday-LF (trade for him now…and try to sign him mid year 09’…Maybe working with Boras to sign Tex in the off-season will lighten him up a bit…If not then sign him after 09’)
B-Mac-Catcher
Frenchy-RF (we all want to crucify him, but the kids young, and he has never had to deal with failure before. He will get his act together in the off-season and he will bounce back. In fact, maybe you try and sign him in the off-season to get pressure off him. Maybe he will come down to your level since he had a bad year. Sign for a short term deal like 2-3 years, and revisit during the 3rd year.)
Johnson-2nd (he is serviceable…if he really starts to have bad year…then maybe you fix it at the trade deadline next year)
Now last but not least…the bench.
How many is that now…21 (with 13 pitchers)…so 4-5 spots left.
Prado
Infante
Diaz
(_fill in name here)A new power bat back-up catcher
And if you go with 12 pitchers…then get another power bat pinch hitter that can play the outfield…AND NO BARRY BONDS!!! Thats another rule!!
Everyone from this team thats not there either let go, dont re-sign, or send back to the minors.
Thats my team. And my team can kick your teams a$$!
Let me know what you think. We can dream….can’t we? Thanks for playing!
By Xavier Nady
July 24, 2008 8:52 PM | Link to this
In case there was any confusion, and there certainly seems to be on this blog, I wanted to alleviate it.
I am not that good.
I know you guys need a catalyst for your offense and timely hitting. And, yeah, I’ve provided that for the Bucs this year.
But, have you guys ever checked out my career stats?
First of all, I’m 29. Some might say that’s my prime. I’d say that means it’s taken me a darn long time to get the swing of things.
Secondly, here are some stats you might want to consider:
Outside of 2006, when I hit exactly .300 and only played 55 games, I have never hit anywhere near that benchmark. It would appear that my .327 average this year is a total aberration. Sure, maybe I figured it out. Or, more likely, maybe I’m just getting really lucky.
I don’t steal bases. And you guys need more speed.
I topped out at 72 RBIs last year. Frenchy’s almost there this year and the guy’s hitting .230 or some nonsense. I don’t produce as many runs as you think. My previous best before last year was 43. As in less than Frenchy currently has this season. In case you need perspective, that’s pathetic.
Remember in 2000 when I played for San Diego and hit 1.000, getting one hit in one at-bat? Nope. No one else does either.
I’m slugging .050 points higher and my OPS is .100 points higher than it’s ever been before. You know how to spell that in layman’s terms? F-L-U-K-E.
So, to break it all down for you guys, yes. I’m having a good year. But as a few others have mentioned, past performance is usually a decent indicator of future results. So, if we take that as even a half-truth, I will never be that good.
And just so you know, Jason Bay’s pretty good…but he’s not going to save your season. In fact, no one player is going to save your season. The only thing that will get you into the postseason is your team getting its act together as a collective whole. You need to start playing solid defense (see Rockies of 2007), you need to start getting timely hitting, and someone besides Chipper needs to throw this team on their back for a while and justify all the praise and their paycheck (cough, Tex, cough).
So, I wish you guys the best of luck. But, please don’t trade away more young guys for someone like Jason or myself who is not going to amount to a fart in the wind this season. If anything, get all you can for Tex and see if you can win with what you’ve got otherwise. It’s not like he’s getting the clutch hits that you so desperately need.
By TennesseePaul
July 24, 2008 8:56 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the comments DOB.
I’ll be honest here for a sec… this trade anticipation has be kind of excited. I’m eager to see what happens.
By N8
July 24, 2008 8:59 PM | Link to this
Shamus Thacker
I agree with your 8:11. I think plenty of teams would take a stab at Jeff. Like DOB said, I think KC would be all over him.
He wouldn’t bring as much as he would have last year at this time.
But here’s the thing. Either NOBODY would be interested in him, telling the Braves that he’s not as good as believed, or there would be a market for him.
DOB stated the other day (maybe earlier today), that IF the Braves were to trade him, it would be because they think they can improve the team in such a deal, NOT to “give Jeff a change of scenery”.
That being said, I think there more than likely would be a few teams that would think that the change of scenery would allow Jeff to relax a bit more and live up to his abilities, while not having to be the hometown golden boy.
Would the angels give us Kotchman for him. More than likely not. But somebody would give us some value for him. The question for Wren is, if the value in return is worth the risk of alienating local fans.
Random
As per your 3:58 post about the “poll” asking about former trades. The one that I get a kick out of, is the Dale Murphy trade. Last time I checked, people were “against” that trade.
Hmmm. Isn’t that the trade that opened the door for Justice to move to RF, and left an opening at 1B that allowed JS to go get Bream?
While Murphy was my favorite player as a kid, all personal love for the Murph aside, that was a GREAT trade, if you judge the results the following year. Justice was NOT a very good 1B. If I’m not mistaking, didn’t Justice win the ROY based pretty much on what he did AFTER that trade? Not to mention that Murphy literally did nothing from there on out?
By the way, earlier today, you said you still hadn’t seen me “dispute” the whole “RISP” argument where Moby ragged on me for sarcastically saying that I expect my clutch hitters to hit .750 in those spots.
July 23, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this
Moby Grape said:
“LOL,(there that better?)Who is it exactly that hits that .750 for you dude?”
To which I responded:
“The fact that you completely missed the sarcasm in that statement explains a lot.”
To the blogger that stated we should trade for Renteria and Sheffield and the offense would automatically be fixed. Have you even bothered to pay attention to what those two have done this year, and that they are 2 of the primary players responsible for the “greatest lineup ever assembled”??
Renteria:
.258 BA, 5 HR, 34 RBI, 3SB.
You suggest him coming and playing 2B?
Kelly Johnson is hitting .260 with 8 HR and 40 RBI, with 9 SB. How is THAT an upgrade?
As for Sheffield? .221 BA, 7 HR, 24 RBI, 6 SB.
Jeffrey is hitting .231 with 9 HR and 44 RBI, and 0 SB.
Apparently Sheff’s 6 SB are the “difference maker” stats, huh?
Why not just suggest we trade for Andruw and Nomar with their COMBINED 6 HR and 27 RBI??
And to think that some people accuse me of idiocy.
Yikes.
By Daybed Wagmoe
July 24, 2008 9:12 PM | Link to this
My response to the AJC article about Bobby not being responsible:
I think that, to a large extent, he is very responsible. I’m a huge Bobby Cox fan, but there have been several things he’s done that have left me scratching my head. Such as:
1) The mismanagement of the bullpen. Now, I know that not having Moylan, Gonzalez, or Soriano because of injury for most of the season has left him shorthanded in this department. However, there have been many games in which he’s left relievers (specifically Boyer and Acosta) out on the mound for far too long, trying to get them to go one more inning and blowing the lead.
2) Mistaken loyalty to Francoeur. Out of Francoeur’s 409 plate appearances this year, 347 have been in the 5th or 6th hole; 18 have been while batting third (games in which Chipper has been hurt). Only 43 have been in the 7 hole, and 1 in the 9 hole. I admire Cox’s loyalty to his players — such as sticking with Kelly Johnson during his 1-for-31 start (or whatever it was) — but over this long of a period of time, it’s really done a lot more damage to the team than help. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Jeff hitting 3rd in the Phillies series if Chipper’s hurt.
3) For some reason, Corky Miller is still on the team. Sure, Corky Miller is a great defensive backup, but the offensive dropoff is huge. Maybe this one is more of a decision between Bobby and Wren, but Miller’s sub-.100 batting average doesn’t belong in the bigs.
I don’t think that Bobby should be fired — after all he’s done for the club, he deserves to stick around for however long he wants. Plus, he’s still a good manager. That being said, I’m not buying Chipper’s comments that the injuries are fully responsible for the team’s struggles. Cox has a good bit of responsibility for it, too.
By Random
July 24, 2008 9:20 PM | Link to this
DOB: “The Braves posted a 1,402-903 record — 499 games over .500 — from the beginning of the 1991 season through July 31, 2005… . They are 240-242 since Aug. 1, 2005.”
Dayum, that’s an eye-opener of a stat, if I’m interpreting it correctly.
From beginning of the 91 season thru ~2/3 of the 05 season — that’s 13 2/3 seasons, right? (Counting 94 & 95 as one full season.)
And the Braves averaged ~36.5 games above .500 over that stretch.
And since then? Yikes!!!
What happened?
(Or did I mangle and molest the numbers I meant merely to crunch?)
By ncscoots
July 24, 2008 9:21 PM | Link to this
why would any player take less money (which is what Tex would be doing by accepting a one-year deal) to stay in/come to a rebuilding situation? It just doesn’t make much sense.
Au contraire. Gil, as usual, makes all the sense in the world. Even though Tex would be the most attractive of a poor FA market in the coming offseason, he hasn’t set the world on fire this year (yet, at least). In other words, he hasn’t made a compelling case that he’s a $20MM player. Oh, he might still get such an offer, I guess, but it’s not the foregone conclusion I once thought. Boras’s talk of ten at 23 is just posturing, nothing more.
Teixeira could roll the dice with an arb salary of $16MM, take another shot at FA, and fully expect to not have two underperforming years in a row. The market in the 2009 offseson doesn’t look all that studly, either, as I remember. It wouldn’t be the optimal scenario for Teixeira, but it’s not out of the realm. Not likely, I’d guess, but not impossible.
By Tomas
July 24, 2008 9:28 PM | Link to this
Really Arizona is willing to trade for Tex, well in that case I think the braves should get a guy like Conor Jackson at least. But I don’t think they would give up conor. Specially when Chad Tracy is hitting the way he is hitting.
To the dodgers if they were to trade Matt Kemp, Andre Either, or James Loney, and a player to be named later. They are looking for power, have a lot of depth in the OF, and they’re in the hunt against the D-backs, so they might be willing to take the risks.
To the Angels it would require Reggie Willits, and Casey Kotchman, who would fill two holes in the lineup, and would give them a good speedy center fielder who can switch hit and had an awesome year last year when he was given a chance to play. They have a lot of depth in the outfield as well, and they are in need of power bat. But they’re division is just not a threat to them and they have a lot of depth but maybe they go for it and try to win it all.
By The Goche
July 24, 2008 9:33 PM | Link to this
Xavier Nady *In case there was any confusion, and there certainly seems to be on this blog, I wanted to alleviate it.
I am not that good.*
Thanks X. You know, you are in fact a good player. You could fill a hole on a good team and make them very good.
If only there were a hole in Atlanta for you to fill, but as of right now, the Braves are about half hole. One particular hole we have is called the outfield, and that hole is about three guys wide.
But the thing is Atlanta fans expect you to show up and fill that big hole by yourself (hey, maybe we can call up Josh Anderson to help, that would definitely fix everything), and you can’t fill that hole by yourself, or even with Josh Anderson and Mark Kotsay.
So hopefully for you, you might get traded to some non-Mets team where you can actually make a difference to some team’s playoff hopes.
By ncscoots
July 24, 2008 9:36 PM | Link to this
Chipper wouldn’t intentionally throw teammates under a bus, I guess, but “injuries have taken a toll” is just code for “too many freakin’ ABs for the likes of Blanco, Gotay, Norton, Infante, et al, who should have had about 300 between them.”
That would be MY meaning for such a code phrase, anyway.
By Tomas
July 24, 2008 9:40 PM | Link to this
Regarding to my post at 9:28pm, I’m realistic and I know that probabily won’t happen but i wouldn’t trade Tex for less than that.
By H-Ram
July 24, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this
Holy Nady ,Batman….will the Braves be sellers or Buyers??…i dont know Robin…lets go the Batcave and found out,shall we?
By BossLady
July 24, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this
I’ve been catching up on the blog and what sticks out in my mind is the question to DOB about Jerome’s interview tactics.
Why would he have an opinion of what another interviewer is doing anyway? It is a business out there. Although he’s not employed by the same media outlet as Jerome he is a colleague.
In business people don’t go around burning bridges behind or in front of themselves. It would serve no useful purpose to address that question. Also, it could be damaging to do such a wreckless thing. Interviews are given on different sports outlets by beat writers.
I wonder if you are just a nosy person or have no idea how careers and businesses are operated or manipulated.
By VAROADRUNNER
July 24, 2008 9:56 PM | Link to this
Mike
Cute Game - My take is IF Smoltz comes back we use him in the closer role. If Soriano can come back from his baffling injuries, he and Gonzo set it up for Smoltzie. Less stress on that old arm.
I personally feel that campy can fill a #3 or 4 role. I would trade for a bigtime free agent - Yours is fine with Sheets, altho he is a bit injury prone. We can only hope that Moylan can come bck with the effectiveness he enjoyed before the injury.
Tex - hmmmmmm, trade him now and get something. Anything, just please please please something that can somehow justify letting all of those valuable prospects go to rent Tex. (and with little to show for the trade - except last year’s surge by tex)
Hopefully Looney, or someone that can play defense and hit an occasional HR while hitting close to 300. Too much? OK, move KJ to 1B. He’ll be able to use a larger glove.
But we have to avenge the losses of great prospects.
Of course, Chipper at 3B, Escobar at SS, 2b, hmmmmmmm.. I still want to put KJ at first, so, why not trade for a real second baseman. We have people playing out of position. What we need is a team that can play THEIR position. We have a team of fill-ins. Maybe move KJ back to LF. He seems to be a key in all of this.
But I won’t go quite as deep and you, but again, an interesting, thought provoking question.
By VAROADRUNNER
July 24, 2008 10:07 PM | Link to this
Daybed Wagmoe
I’m with you man… and add to that the one thing I have been “preaching” for the last month or so. It is Bobby’s responsibility to require situational hitting. These bases loaded at-bats that result in outside pitches being pulled to the SS for the ole 6-4-3. It is the manager’s duty to ENFORCE IT.
I do agree, although I have ranted that he be fired, that Bobby has earned the right to leave when he wants to leave.
It does seem he needs to adjust to the times - he no longer has three Cy Youngs pitching for him.
By DesiBrave
July 24, 2008 10:08 PM | Link to this
I have a very strong feeing that Teixeria will sign with the Orioles next year giving a hometown discount for them. He grew up being an Os fan all through life and he would love to help them get back to their golden era of 70s and 80s and Os will do everything to lock him up for a long long time. Inspite of an hometown discount what Os going to give Teix will be more than anybody else would like to give him.
By stoocscn
July 24, 2008 10:13 PM | Link to this
Even though Tex would be the most attractive of a poor FA market in the coming offseason, he hasn’t set the world on fire this year (yet, at least). In other words, he hasn’t made a compelling case that he’s a $20MM player.
Tex didn’t have to make that case. Andruw Jones made that for him last year. Andruw signed two years for 18 mil a year coming off of a disasterous year and a half! If Andruw Jones was worth 18 mil a year, Tex will have no trouble getting 20. I predict he’ll get 4 or 5 years at 20 mil. Heck, with his age, his history, his career numbers and his gold glove defense, I would say either team in NY would give him that, especially the team who we see 18 times a year! Remember, Delgado won’t be back. They need someone at first.
By DesiBrave
July 24, 2008 10:15 PM | Link to this
How about this Francoeur blooper….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyd6CZEV6Sg
By couldawouldashoulda
July 24, 2008 10:26 PM | Link to this
DesiBrave has obviously been oblivious to the attitude Tex has taken throughout the season as to what, if any, discount ANY team he has any remote connection to will get.
Oh, and I’m sure that Boras guy would just love for Tex to take a discount. At this point, and I hope for the Braves sake I’m wrong, I (and apparently everyone else) think Tex is going to go wherever the Benjamins take him and I think that removes Baltimore as a possible destination.
By Robert (Chipper Is The Best)
July 24, 2008 10:28 PM | Link to this
Would the Pirates consider a Nady for Francoeur trade? The Pirates get an OF they will have control over for three more years instead of one and the Braves get an outfielder who can actually hit and produce right now!
By bravesfaninmetsland
July 24, 2008 10:48 PM | Link to this
All right!! A little trade talk on Baseball Tonight with DOB
By Jaysquawk
July 24, 2008 10:48 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB, just heard you on BBall Tonight. You have sure got a beat writers voice.
By Random
July 24, 2008 10:48 PM | Link to this
Daybed Wagmoe —
Three (or two, imo) good points — mismanagement of the bullpen and not playing the best players avilable to him.
Not to pile on, but wtf with bringing in highly valuable and (often) fragile closers in non-save situations? Esp when they’ve (often) saved a game just the previous night?
Wtf with using Soriano 3 days out of 4 immediately upon his first return from the DL?
Wtf with starting Norton instead of Kotsay, Prado instead of Johnson, when each of the latter was clearly superior both offensively and defensively, even against LH pitchers. Cox is unforgivably a zombie slave to the RH/LH match-ups.
If he continues making egregiously unsupportable decision like these, he definitely should either resign, retire or be gently kicked upstairs. Imo.
By Wayne in Utah
July 24, 2008 10:59 PM | Link to this
Robert(CIB) Would the Pirates consider Francoeur, Lillibridge, Thorman and JoJo for LaRoche and Bay?
How about Francoeur and JoJo for Teahan and DeJesus?
How about Tex for Brandon Wood and ANY backup catcher.
How about Prado, Thorman and Chuck James for Carl Crawford (oops, did I say that?)
Monday should be very interesting…..
By ssstreaks
July 24, 2008 10:59 PM | Link to this
Anyone who thinks the denizens here are being hard on the Braves, should check out the Phillies blog (www.philly.com). Not as many comments, but all of them negative - even a player like Chase Utley is getting no love. Maany complaints about the offense - this for a team that is second in the NL in runs scored and is only a game out of first place. “City Of Brotherly Love” indeed!
By kris
July 24, 2008 11:00 PM | Link to this
This really sucks the whole season is coming down to the next few games.I hate the fact a management team is even considering throwing in the towel. Damn it! so much promise at the beginning of the year!
By The Goche
July 24, 2008 11:05 PM | Link to this
Tomas said “Reggie Willits”
Never say it again. You actually managed to pinpoint one of the few people who could make our outfield worse!
Season OPS .538!
Speed alone does not a good player make.
By David O'Brien
July 24, 2008 11:06 PM | Link to this
Jaysquawk, thanks. Better than having a columnist’s voice (that was a shot at my boys Schultz and Bradley).
By the way, happy birthday George Clinton, still incorrigible at 67.
By The Goche
July 24, 2008 11:11 PM | Link to this
more Willits fun:
His slugging percentage this season is lower than Francouer’s batting average!
By Random
July 24, 2008 11:15 PM | Link to this
Cognitive dissonance from good ol’ N8:
A.: “DOB stated the other day (maybe earlier today), that IF the Braves were to trade him [Tex], it would be because they think they can improve the team in such a deal,”
2.: “The question for Wren is, if the value in return is worth the risk of alienating local fans.”
JJ. 8-)
N8: “Hmmm. Isn’t that the trade that opened the door for Justice to move to RF, and left an opening at 1B that allowed JS to go get Bream?”
Exactly!!! That’s why I myself voted it a good trade. Sure we got pieces of siht in return (more or less), but like you said, it cleared the path for Justice to step up and shine.
N8: “By the way, earlier today, you said you still hadn’t seen me “dispute” the whole “RISP” argument where Moby ragged on me for sarcastically saying that I expect my clutch hitters to hit .750 in those spots.”
Oh, I wasn’t pretending to be oblivious to your response to Moby, I was pretending to be oblivious to your 1:21 response to Quack Quack.
My idea of a joke. (Check my immediately subsequent 1:59 comment.)
By Chop Chop
July 24, 2008 11:19 PM | Link to this
DOB,
I heard you on Baseball Tonight. It’s always nice to hear the blog representative get the national pub.
I have an idea for you:
Throw in some kind of shoutout to the blog next time.
You know, maybe you could say something like “Braves fans have been saying ‘Holy Cornelia!’ as the trade deadline approaches.”
Just deliver it in a normal speaking voice. Maybe Karl Ravech will catch it and make a little comment about it.
By Chop Chop
July 24, 2008 11:26 PM | Link to this
DOB,
Schultz has a bit of a high voice, but he still looks kinda like Louis C.K. That’s got to count for something.
By keylargo
July 24, 2008 11:29 PM | Link to this
I find it hard to believe that so many people are holding on to the hope for a miracle. That is what it will take to win this division.
And where would we be if we won?
Successful playoff teams do not get shut out/one hit by a team like the Marlins.
They do not lose two of three to cellar dwellers in their division. They don’t lose season series by a 4 - 7 to teams playing .373 ball.
If you still strongly believe the Braves are a playoff team, here is something that says otherwise. These odds say the Braves are 25 to 1 NOT to make the playoffs.
We need to drop the fantasies and start working on next year.
http://www.oddschecker.com/baseball/mlb/national-league-east
By THWG
July 24, 2008 11:38 PM | Link to this
Anyone catch Burn Notice on USA? Surprisingly entertaining show. Sort of a CSI mixed with 24.
By Wayne in Utah
July 24, 2008 11:41 PM | Link to this
keylargo Around the old GM table, you never really want to reveal your entire hand. Many “lies” are spoken in an attempt to not reveal one’s hand.
That being understood, I suspect that Frank Wren knows these extremely low odds. But, in light of our upcoming series against the Phillies, he can’t really reveal what might truly be in his heart, and the heart of the Braves org.
Besides, stranger things have happened, although unlikely as they may be.
I think we will see Tex and Ohman dealt by the deadline. I also think it will be much closer to the 31st. Some validity in this approach, unless someone offers exactly what they are looking for earlier than the 31st.
For those pleading not to quit, I can feel for you. I have an extremely hard time throwing in the towel, but in addition to being a huge fan, I am also a realist.
Hard to be optimistic when 3 teams are that far ahead of you in the standings.
By Wayne in Utah
July 24, 2008 11:49 PM | Link to this
THWG Actually, I think of it as more of a McGyver meets 24. Have seen it 3-4 times, and love it!
By David O'Brien
July 24, 2008 11:59 PM | Link to this
Chop Chop, that’s hilarious. You are very correct, he does look like Louis C.K., more than a little.
By THWG
July 25, 2008 12:01 AM | Link to this
Wayne, good call. I’m glad there’s something entertaining on TV when the Braves have an off day. Plus, it doesn’t give me that sickening feeling in my stomach I get after most Braves games. I think that’s called disappointment.
By monty
July 25, 2008 12:07 AM | Link to this
THe Mets are peaking too Soon! It’s not even August yet.You know the Phillies know they can be had.
By brent a.
July 25, 2008 12:36 AM | Link to this
I just HAD to get Kobe in the blog today! I LOVE Kobe! Guy who hides behind the screen name “Brent A)ss Clown”
I am glad you are back. I had been missing you.
I see where you have been in the news lately. I bet that was a tough time for you, wasn’t it?
No wonder you are so shy.
By StuckWith Francoeur
July 25, 2008 1:08 AM | Link to this
* Bowman, MLB,Com*
But those fans who are becoming impatient with Jeff Francoeur — whose .319 on-base percentage since the beginning of 2007 ranks as the worst among Major League right fielders — shouldn’t anticipate the Braves parting ways with him. He has drawn little interest on the trade market.
By Coach ( Lets Go Braves In 2009)
July 25, 2008 1:25 AM | Link to this
I’m in total disagreement with Chipper concerning the responsibility factor surrounding Bobby Cox.
Cox is the one who has kept Frency’s inept bat in the lineup.
Cox is the manager who has looked the other way in spite of Corky Miller’s abysmal .106 BA.
Cox is the one who took 77 games to finally put Gregor Blanco in the lead off hole where he belonged.
Cox is the guy who kept running Manny Acosta out to the mound in June eleven times even though Acosta stunk it up to the tune of 0-3 and a 9.23 ERA.
Cox is the one who allowed Chuck James to stink up the rotation (2-3 / 8.22 ERA) for five starts before demoting him to Richmond.
Cox is the reason this team only has 35 stolen bases (ranked 13 out of 16 teams). He refuses to play small ball enough, example: Cox will consistently bunt the runner to second with less than one out but refuses to do the same with the runner on second with no outs. He plays for the big inning instead of trying to get the one run.
Gregor Blanco and Josh Anderson should have been platooning as the lead-off hitter months ago, therebye adding the element of speed to the offense. Cox still hasn’t figured this out.
Bobby’s mismanagement of the bullpen has been well documented. But it goes beyond just this year. Peter Moylan appeared in 80 games in 2007, it’s no surprise that his arm fell off just ten games into this season.
It’s no surprise that the year after Leo Mazzone left, the bullpen’s workload increased from 442.2 innings to 512.1 and the Braves bullpen is on pace to surpass 500 innings for the third straight year.
And on and on I could go……
By N8
July 25, 2008 1:28 AM | Link to this
Random
It’s cool. I did see your 1:59, but apparently I’m the “and idiot”, that didn’t get it.
As for your 11:15 post, I’m not sure why you edited the first paragraph of your post (where you’re quoting me) to make it about Tex. It was about those wanting to trade Jeff.
If you click on the link and read it, it clearly says JEFF in the middle of the paragraph that you chose to re-post in quotes, yet decided to leave the last half off.
Kinda changes the context of the comment a bit, huh?
Or am I missing something…..yet again?
By N8
July 25, 2008 1:49 AM | Link to this
Here’s a little nugget from Jon Heyman’s latest at si.com.
“There is believed to be something of a split among key Braves decision makers about whether to buy or sell. And the big holdout in favor of going for it is — no surprise — manager Bobby Cox, who is likely in his penultimate season in the manager’s chair.”
Well. Isn’t that nifty? Looks like Bobby has the “I’m in my second to last year of managing (maybe not)” hat, rather than his old GM hat that he used to wear. Then again, DOB always says how “tight lipped” the Braves organization is with it’s inner dealings. Maybe it’s a mirage they’re sending out so other teams up their offer, thinking that Bobby doesn’t wanna give up yet.
Ultimately it’s up to Wren I’m guessing.
Oddly enough, it was Bobby that had zero issue dumping Murphy for the future of the club. Granted comparing this club to the 90 Braves is a little insulting, being only a handful of games out, but….
“…but the guess here is that logic will eventually prevail. It is thought that legendary front-office fixture John Schuerholz and his replacement as GM Frank Wren will understand before the July 31 deadline that this just isn’t the Braves’ year.”
Let’s hope so.
“All that being said, it would make little sense to hold onto start first baseman Mark Teixeira, or for that matter relievers Will Ohman and Mike Gonzalez.”
OK. This is where he loses me. Ohman? In a perfect world, as many of us have stated here, the Braves pony up the money and go for the “tri-fecta” next year with Ohman and Soriano setting up Gonzo.
But at the same time, trading Ohman could bring some nice prospects or younger guys for the pen (but don’t we have enough of those already?). Especially if he’s added to the Tex deal. Might be the extra guy to sweeten the pot (similar to Mayhay last year).
But Gonzo? At his current price, with the way he looks (after not even being fully recovered - if you believe the 12-18 months that most take to regain full strength), how can this guy NOT be pegged as the closer for next year?
IMO, a close is still crucial, in fact MORE crucial on a young team, with young guys in the rotation. When they battle their azzes off for 6+ innings to put the team in a position to win, them and the team deserve to have those games locked down.
That being said, if Wren is REALLY thinking long-term of the future, Gonzo could certainly bring some decent prospects as well. Definitely more than Ohman, since he’s been (and still is) a closer, is cheap and under control next year. Which is the main reason they should keep him.
By nolie
July 25, 2008 1:50 AM | Link to this
Shaun
I agree with your 9:06 am post on clutch hitting and major league hitter. Good job. Anybody who succeeds at AA or above is a damn good baseball player.
By NO MORE BOBBY
July 25, 2008 1:53 AM | Link to this
You people don’t deserve the Braves to win sticking up for Cox the way you do!!! Southern people - so polite and get dirt kicked in your face every time for it. 68% of you idiots think we are in 4th place because of injuries? Ha!
I think Bobby did great things for baseball in Atlanta back in the 90s but he is WASHED UP!!! What is Chipper going to say? He has been through a lot with the guy ( a lot of losing in the post season). Thats all they know!! 2010 I promise their will be a new attitude and you country folk will be scratching your heads thinking “hmmmmm maybe we should have got a new manager a few years ago” (in slow southern voice).
Lets just hope 2010 Bobby doesnt still have the urge to sit in the dugout and yell dumb nicknames anymore.
By uga-brave
July 25, 2008 2:03 AM | Link to this
well since i was probably the first one to point out frenchy’s mechanical problems last year, i am going to be the first one to somewhat defend him.
no way you trade him. the guy has a long swing, ( by the way i was the first guy that compared him to jermaine dye) he cant catch up to the fastball because he committs too early.
i always said lungers have no future.
francoeuer gets on his front foot on everything.
the braves need to send him far away from people that give him positive feedback.
PEOPLE like our grenade throwing AA MANAGER.
he really needs to learn how to keep his hands quiet and keep his weight back.
aluminum bats make up for a ton of fundamental flaws.
he still has a metal bat swing.
as for the mental approach,
humility would be a good start.
this country loves people that have faults, they especially love people that own up to them.
what they hate are people that think they are entitled.
if i were on the jf public relation team i would have him being very humble.
no other franchise in baseball would of given you this long of a leash.
DONT HANG YOURSELF WITH IT.
By Coach ( Lets Go Braves In 2009)
July 25, 2008 2:08 AM | Link to this
Um, N8. Not to pile on or anything, but Cox is the idiot GM who had the opportunity to trade Dale Murphy to the Mets back in the winter of 1988-89. They were offering four players including Howard Johnson and Lenny Dykstra.
Of course , Cox dropped the ball and turned them down. Anybody remember off the top of your head the three players the Braves got from the Phillies, without looking?
By nolie
July 25, 2008 2:12 AM | Link to this
While I’m not going to argue that there are lower-tier players that are “significantly” better late in games than the rest of the game; I have witnessed players that have a penchant for stepping up late in games, while others buckle under the pressureBrentA
of course you have as have we all, but what we witnessed is such a small sample size that we can’t know whether it is a skill they have or just what happened. Even if you could remember 50 at bats from a player who was more successful it is still too small a sample size to be determining. If a guy is truly that much better over his career it would show in his stats and it doesn’t really do that for anyone.
Thats much of the difference, some claim to believe what they see, some rely on stats. When we rely on our memory for such determinations we are relying on a relatively small sample size and we are influenced by the fact that we tend to remember the dramatic more that the mundane.Both the guys who have stepped up when we saw them and the guys who failed could be nothing more than the limited number of times we saw them. If most of out exposure to Chipper envolved watching hi in 2004 we would obviously believe him to be a relatively poor hitter, but of course by including his career stats we know that is not true.
That’s as close as I can come to an explanation and I’m sure that you are already aware of all of it anyway. :-)
It’s an age old dichotomy of viewpoints that we aren’t going to change anyone else’s opinion here. It relates to the differences between the logical and the emotional, the scientific and the pragmatic, etc. We all have our bents and that is where most of the arguements arise.
By Coach ( Lets Go Braves In 2009)
July 25, 2008 2:16 AM | Link to this
Here is a snippit from the NY Times about what did and didn’t happen way back in 1988 concerning Dale Murphy.
Remember, Bobby Cox was the GM at the time.
Still, the Mets acknowledged in December that they were in hot pursuit of Murphy as one more ”franchise player” for an all-star cast. But the Braves reportedly were asking for Dykstra, Keith Miller, Howard Johnson and David West in return. The San Diego Padres reportedly were offering Sandy Alomar Jr., their highly rated No. 2 catcher; John Kruk and Greg Harris.
Talk about dropping the ball….YEA !
By uga-brave
July 25, 2008 2:26 AM | Link to this
SIDEBAR,
frenchy got married in the off season, you dont think the wife is giving him crap.
she thought they were moving to sugarloaf. she wanted to one up mac’s wife.
instead it will be the OLIVE GARDEN on highway 78 during the offseason.
gonna be a tough offseason for the guy.
actually, i think we all wish that we had it that bad.
By Quack Quack
July 25, 2008 2:44 AM | Link to this
Oh please, oh please, oh please trade Francoeur.BenchStench
I’m not so sure how great an idea that is right now. His trade worth is at an all time low right now so how much would he bring in return?
I don’t hate the guy, but I am not a big fan as is probably true of most stats-oriented guys; but it is too early to know whether he might bounce back next season. If he does he will be worth more that what we could get for him in a trade right now. The last article I read about it indicated that there has been very little interest in him, contrary to what has been expressed here by some of his defenders who seem to think that most every team in baseball would love to have him . At least at this point in time that does not seem to be the case.
I would suggest keeping him till next season but to keep a sharp eye on his production from the start next year. Don’t let it drag out forever like the Druw situation did. Give him a certain amount of time to get it back and if he doesn’t then make every effort to trade him at that point.
By bravos2249
July 25, 2008 2:44 AM | Link to this
Coach
You realize if the Braves had got Howard Johnson back in ‘89 it could’ve changed Bobby’s outlook on the 1990 draft….Johnson would’ve been 30…but the Mets not agreeing to that trade in hinges sight, helped the Braves produce the Met killer know as Chipper Jones.
By uga-brave
July 25, 2008 2:48 AM | Link to this
please quit blaming bobby, he did not forget how to manage.
he is saddled with inferior talent.
so for all you coolaid drinkers, tell me our everyday lineup is better then the FISH.
tell me they are better then the phillies, tell me that they are better then the mets.
you cant.
kelly johnson personifies that. very frickin average.
he aint utley, he aint uggla.
escobar, aint reyes, aint rollins, and he aint for damn sure hanley ramirez.
we do not have one outfielder that is as good as jason werth.
time to face the talent deficit.
so when TEX is gone next year, which i totally disagree with.
tell me one player on this team that is better then, sans macc, anyone on their everyday roster.
i left hoss off only because he cant stay healthy.
By Quack Quack
July 25, 2008 3:57 AM | Link to this
Like I said. If you’re generalizing my “idiocy”, so be it. You’re entitled to your opinion.N8
I’d say it was a tossup between a certain disdain for your general long-winded idiocy and an attempt to get your goat… which seems to have worked.
By BGKAHUNA88
July 25, 2008 4:11 AM | Link to this
(By the way, the Jose Reyes defensive gaffe in last night’s game on a would-be double play, his poor decision to try to do it all himself, was a perfect example of why I didn’t have him on that list of 10 guys I’d build a team around in the NL when someone asked me yesterday.)
did you watch the game DOB? or did you just catch 3 seconds of highlights? he tried to make a play for his team that he saw going down in flames. he took responsibility after the game for the gaffe.( only play was to 1st, because easley was late covering) but at least he tried. he’s 25 and the most ELECTRIC player in MLB and you wouldn’t want him to start a team. yeah right. how again is it that you have a column? oh! by the way did you see his game-winning 3 run HR last night. yeah, yeah, i know say something about his trot that took all of 15 seconds. unlike the hours it takes the likes of manny ramirez. go ahead and mention something like larry anderson said. about someone needing to hit reyes in the neck with a pitch.
here’s my final thought on the subject. now remember to answer honestly. okay.
would you trade escobar for reyes straight up? go ahead you can answer now. everyone KNOWS that answer. i thought so. you don’t have to be a mets fan, a reyes fan or one of his apologists to see he unbelievable passion and skills on display every single game.
By nolie
July 25, 2008 4:35 AM | Link to this
But you’re NEVER gonna convince me that MLB players don’t get nervous, or have their adrenaline pumping a little more with the game on the line.
Some people thrive in the pressure, some people cave.
Human nature, dude. They’re not robots. N8
I think you are right for the most part, but I think like Shaun that the guys that cave have a lot of trouble dealing with that have been stranded in the minors. Sure there are degrees of difference even in the bigs, but for the most part not to a large extent. Not to say that there is no emotional/mental aspect to success in baseball, confidence is a huge component,I just think that it is a more general overall issue than it is so much dependent only on clutch situations,
While my health still allowed I used to play a lot of highly competitive 9Ball, which is in many ways similar to baseball. There is a huge range of pressure ability to be seen at the general level of smaller tournaments, but when you get to the really big ones, most of the guys who make it to that level have done so at least in part because they usually handle pressure well. That corresponds to what I saw in the minors, believe me if you make it to the point of being successful in the high pro ranks you are able to deal with pressure pretty well. Are there still nuances between players? of course.
There will always be this argument between the dedicated stat-ies and the non or partial believers whether there even is a clutch skill set or if it is simply a matter of sample size.
By David O'Brien
July 25, 2008 4:51 AM | Link to this
would you trade escobar for reyes straight up? bgkahuna
Yes, I would. But I was talking about 10 players I’d build a team around. That entails all aspects, from physical skills and athleticism to mentality. He’s definitely in the top 5 in terms of physical skills and ability. Outstanding player.
Oh, and BG, how could I have watched that game when I was covering a Braves game at the time?
By bravos2249
July 25, 2008 5:18 AM | Link to this
Who cares if Reyes is ONLY 25…he’s played in the Big Leagues for SIX YEARS…name one other player that acts like that when they’ve been in the Bigs for THAT long.
Last night though what he did wasn’t even the worst he’s done.
Even though that type of behavior isn’t what I would want…it confounds me that other players are talked about bad when they do one thing when some have been doing ti for years.
By nolie
July 25, 2008 6:10 AM | Link to this
Not exactly fantastic. Not sure which one is correct. I have no intention of pulling up game logs to verify the data. But with two of the sources being fairly close I’m going to say this is probably a good idea of what is going on in the post season with A-Rod in New York. In summary we have…
Split AVG OBP SLG Career .307 .389 .579 NY Car .305 .401 .575 NY PS .245 .360 .436
Seems like a drop off to me…TennPaul
seems like one, but is it? we can’t know because the sample size is so small. even 100 ABs is very small compared to his career numbers and certainly we see players have 150 great or terrible ABs all the time. Harris,Green,Thomas etc with great ABs who regressed back to their norm and Chipper for instance withh 500+ terrible ABs in 2004 who has since regressed back to his norm. I’m not saying yea or nay, I’m saying that we can’t really know that it is non-clutch performance.
By Shaun
July 25, 2008 6:20 AM | Link to this
Random, good hunting. But be prepared, the definition and sample size will change if you find anything that could be viewed as a drop off or step up in “clutch” situations. Inevitably though, whatever you do find, the follow up will be, sure he sucked there, but was it the pressure or was it the temperature?
Huh? I’m not the one bringing up World Series sac flies as examples of clutch hitting.
And I’m assuming you are referring to A-Rod “sucking” in NY. But he hasn’t. That’s the whole thing. He’s had his best seasons in NY and his post-seasons have not sucked. Yes, they aren’t as good as his regular seasons but his numbers do not stray that much. Not enough to show that he’s obviously caving in to pressure.
By Shaun
July 25, 2008 6:34 AM | Link to this
Is Jose Reyes really a top 5 or 10 player? Sure, he’s a great player but I just don’t think he’s in the top 5. Maybe he’ll be in the top 10 in his best seasons. But he’s yet to finish even in the top ten in OPS, slugging, on-base or average.
By Quack Quack
July 25, 2008 6:54 AM | Link to this
Are these types of statistics kept? How do you define “clutch situation” or “pressure situation” — close and late? Or just close (eg, 2nd inning tie game)? What else?
What performance stats would you credit most — BA/OBP/OPS? RBI percentage? What?
I might have some free time this weekend.
Random
Hey dude, I just look at the clutch section of BBRef. and I just want to see general good performance, not concentrate on just one stat. For instance I can think of at least three of four times that Chipper got a hit with RISP but the guy couldn’t score from second for one reason or another.
I also agree with the post yesterday that at the MLB level, clutch performance is more about not letting it negatively affect your performance than it is about hitting way better than normal. There are no guys who hit better than .500 in any kind of clutch situation over any length of time.
By N9
July 25, 2008 6:56 AM | Link to this
stick with yunel. my vote would still be yunel escobar. and hes cheaper
By brent a.
July 25, 2008 7:53 AM | Link to this
Shaun,
I am curious, are you still refusing to address A-Rod’s numbers from the 2004 LCS through the 2007 LDS?
Why won’t you discuss those? I know, it’s a small sample size; but, it’s indicative of what I’m talking about.
Also, look at Reggie Jackson’s World Series numbers, and compare them to his career numbers. Of course, the WS is a small sample; but, the reality is that man stepped up and did it when he had the opportunity. No one is saying (except for you and a few sabermetricians) that Reggie Jackson needs to have 500 WS at-bats to make that matter.
The World Series is a rare opportunity for many baseball players, let alone humans. It’s about taking advantage of that rare opportunity when it is presented. And that is exactly what Reggie Jackson did. Meanwhile, Alex Rodriguez has shown since 2004 LCS that he can’t handle the pressure. Of course, you don’t want to address that.
And then, there’s Kirk Gibson. I know, only 19 World Series at-bats; but, he hit 3 home runs in those 19 at-bats, and 2 of them won games. That is clutch, in my book.
I know, you’ve defined clutch in a different way. I see that. And, I don’t care about your definition of clutch. My concern is that you have decided that Major League Baseball players are not impacted by pressure and other distractions, because they are major league baseball players. That ignores such a plethora of reality that makes it hard to know where to begin the discussion to address it.
And then, there is the factor that every moment, is a different moment, in everyone’s life. A guy may be a great clutch hitter for one season in his life. And in my book, that guy was clutch, for that season. Things change. People change. Approaches change. But sometimes, when you look at your stats, you fail to recognize that those stats are creatdc by real human beings, in real situations, with real variables affecting the outcomes.
Just as a minor example, we know that right now, Jeff Francoeur’s career numbers are dropping. If you want to make a projection about his performance in the next 10 days, a single at bat, or whatever you choose, how are you going to determine the sample by which you base that comparison?
Will you use his career numbers? His career numbers prior to the start of this season? His season numbers? His season numbers since the first of June? His last 10 games? What?
You see, it’s all different, depending on what sample size you choose.
I’ll admit, I’m taking broad strokes. But, I’m not the one who is trying to force feed you this concept that a clutch hitter is some guy with a magic potion that allows him to perform significantly better in late game situations than he does the rest of the time.
That’s what you are trying to argue against, and I’m with you on that one. Believe it or not, I’ve studied statistics, too.
But, I’ve also lived in this World. And I know that there are variables which impact one’s performance in this life that do not magically disappear when one walks through the door of a Major League clubhouse.
By Grits
July 25, 2008 8:35 AM | Link to this
It’s alll Peachtree’s fault. Fans across the south who sat in front to their tvs and “mojoed” the Braves in the past haven’t been able to do so. Get all the games back on the air in the south.
By Doc Holliday
July 25, 2008 8:45 AM | Link to this
Are you ready?????????
Today is the beginning or the end!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
LETS GO BRAVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By Doc Holliday
July 25, 2008 8:51 AM | Link to this
Quack Quack
I think it also depends on your opponent (division rival) and your situation on the season, like for the Braves………..it has been do or die for most of the season since they have to pick up ground………..been down in the standing and not so far away.
By Shaun
July 25, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this
brent a., here are A-Rod’s numbers from the 2004 ALCS through last season in the post-season: .200/.348/.360 in 92 PA. Not good numbers. But the OBP is still good and it’s only 92 PA. I still don’t see anything that would lead me to believe the pressure gets to him.
He has performed quite well overall in the post-season. His August and September numbers are quite good. His performance has actually been better with the Yankees overall than with the M’s or Texas. We’re jumping to conclusions if we say that his numbers are bad because of some inability to hit in the clutch. Just because he hasn’t done well in the clutch doesn’t mean he has some inability to hit in the clutch, which is what I’ve been arguing.
Reggie Jackson performed well in October. But guess what? He performed well in all other months, too. He’s a Hall of Famer.
Gibson was a great player.
I’m not arguing that clutch plays don’t happen and that players don’t come through in the clutch. I’m arguing that a major league player probably doesn’t have some significantly better clutch ability that others don’t have.
I don’t believe there is an ability we can or should add on when we look at baseball players. “This guy is a good clutch player and this guy is a bad clutch player.” I think all MLB players are relatively clutch or they wouldn’t be in the majors. I think guys that freeze up in pressure situations don’t reach that level. Maybe there are some minuscule differences in MLB players, as far as how they handle pressure, but I don’t think there are significant differences.
I don’t deny that their are variables that baseball players have to deal with that impact performance. I just don’t think one MLB player has a significantly better or worse ability to come through “when it counts.”
Look at the Maris example. Look at all he had to deal with yet he still put up MVP numbers.
Look at Aaron. He had to deal with death threats, yet he still hit homeruns.
I think to get to the majors, a person first of all has to be an amazing baseball player. Also, he has to have a certain personality. He has to have knowledge of the game. He has to have tremendous focus. I don’t believe one can be a MLB player without having that ability to deal with outside variables and still perform.
I believe all MLB players have that ability to come through in the clutch and to drowned out outside variables when the time comes to step on the field. If a player fails or succeeds in the clutch, I don’t think it’s because of ability or inability to handle pressure. That’s all I’m saying. Handling pressure is a prerequisite for becoming a major league player.
By Random
July 25, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this
* Quack Quack* — thanks for the BBRef tip.
brent a. — cogent comments at 7:53 — well said.
N8: “As for your 11:15 post, I’m not sure why you edited the first paragraph of your post (where you’re quoting me) to make it about Tex. It was about those wanting to trade Jeff… . Or am I missing something…..yet again?”
No, that was my bad. I screwed up.
Shaun — didn’t you like my Ideal Gas Law joke?
Maybe you missed it — here it is again: Pretty funny, that last line. But converting from temperature to pressure and back won’t slow me down none — I’ll just use Boyle’s Law, provided I can keep the volume of Shaun’s gas constant. Perhaps easier said than done.
Oh, well — to each his own. (Right, eric the elder?)
PS: “The subsurface geology of Big Chino Basin has only recently been defined. A complex combination of interfingering Tertiary sediments, sedimentary rocks, and basalt flows exist, along with faulting of carbonate rocks along the northeastern boundary of the basin. Understanding and quantifying groundwater flow in the Big Chino Basin aquifer first required a complete understanding of the geology of this region.” (We haven’t forgotten you,Crabby Bill — keep your head in the game, now.)
PPS: Btw, I’m starting to line up some corporate sponsorship. If everything goes right, I’ll soon be lining my pockets with every post, and laughing all the way to the bnak.
By Shaun
July 25, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this
brent a., by the way, I think Gibson and Jackson’s performances are impressive enough. I don’t think we have to explain it by saying they just have a better ability to handle pressure than other major leaguers. In fact, I think in some ways that is selling short their overall abilities.
By Lew
July 25, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this
It was quite interesting the other night. I had the Marlins feed to the game on Extra Innings and Tommy Hutton and his partner were discussing all the stats they could pull up at a split second’s notice, that would tell you anything about any player in any situation.
The partner asked Hutton what did all the old announcrs do when they were doing games back in the time of ticker tape machines in the press booth- What did they do with, for example, no range factor stats.
Hutton’s reply was priceless and right on-“I guess they just had to watch an awful lot of baseball games so they could say ‘The guy covers a whole lot of ground’.”
Try it sometime-it works. Who cares what Willie Mays or Hank Aaron’s range factor was? We knew they were the best even without it. Surprisingly, we knew it about Andruw Jones, too, despite the stats.
By DAP
July 25, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this
if we could find a way to get connor jackson from the dbacks, he would be great for us. the dbacks are definetly a good target for tex…maybe a better one than the angels, because the dbacks are playing tony clark at 1B right now and are only one game up from LA. would giving up jackson hurt them as much as getting tex would help them, though? do you guys think connor jackson could really be dealt?
By Shaun
July 25, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this
Lew, it’s not either/or. It would not be wise for a GM or scout or anyone to only watch games or to only look at stats like range factor, etc. It would be wise to look at both, if you want to get a complete picture. And most people do. Not many baseball fans watch players only and ignore stats, or look at stats and never watch.
And actually announcers I’m sure did have stats. Baseball has had a certain fascination with stats virtually its entire existence.
Some people just have a curiosity and try to learn as much as possible through meaningful statistics and watching. Some people don’t. Some people are content with just watching the game.
By KC
July 25, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
DOB: Any idea when tomorrows starters will be announced? I’m of course wondering if BC will in fact pencil Hampton in for tomorrow.
Though, if he does, he might send JoJo down to the pen, and tell him to be ready just in case, of… well… you know.
By brent a.
July 25, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this
Clutch:
Tiger Woods winning the US open with a torn ACL and double-stress fracture
Christian Laettner completing a perfect game from the floor with a turn around jumper in the final 2 seconds of the regional final against KY in 1992.
He also hit a similar shot to send his team to the final four just 2 years earlier.
Michael Jordan consistently sticking the game winner, including the final shot of his Bulls’ career to win an NBA title.
Those people want to perform and ultimately excel in those situations.
There are so many examples in this world of people that embrace the big moment, while others cower under the pressure.
It’s life. If you’ve lived you’d know this. But, if you’ve spent all your time with your nose in a computer, you’ll come away beleiving that we all simply resort back to the mean.
By brent a.
July 25, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this
btw, I promise not to carry this “clutch” discussion over to the next blog.
Have a great week-end everybody and Go Braves!
By KC
July 25, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this
N8: You’re absolutely right. Makes no sense at all to deal Gonzo, and I’m certain the Braves aren’t even considering it.
IF the Braves are sellers this year, you had better believe they’re looking toward next year. They’re not in a rebuilding mode, and will not be anytime soon (nor should they be), even if they fold up the tent this year at the deadline.
Another reason to hang onto to Gonzo - other than the fact that he’s under contract for one more season at a reasonable price - is that the Braves would probably like to re-sign him.
I think everyone has been trained over the last several years of AOL/Time Warner ownership to assume that all of the Braves big free agents will walk. But that is not longer the case.
Tex is an exception, because Boras is going to be looking for near-A-Rod money… and he might get it.
Ohman is expendable if the Braves are out of it, simply because they won’t give a several million per season-multi year deal to a middle reliever. Not because the can’t, but because they won’t.
Mike Gonzalez is another story all together. The Braves will likely offer him a sizable contract extension this winter, and if he turns it down, they’ll try to keep him here the following winter.
But again, it is faulty reasoning to assert that Gonzo should be dealt because he’ll be a free agent soon. Under their new ownership, these Braves DO have the money to re-sign Gonzo. And this instance, they’ll likely have not only the means, but the will as well.
By DAP
July 25, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this
im thinking tex goes to either the dodgers or the dbacks…most likely, dbacks. the angels have opened up a ten game lead over the A’s, who have had a firesale, and i doubt texas is gonna catch up. the angels dont need tex, because they have good pitching a sufficient offense. the dbacks and dodgers are battling each other, though…i think one of them will bite. can we realistically hope for loney or jackson?
By DHD
July 25, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this
Hey DOB:
Why does it have to be buy OR sell? Why not both? Sell Tex and Ohman for young layers AND buy Jason Bay or Xavier Nady and Adam LaRoche, for example. make both moves and you never know what can happen this season. We have 2 whole months left. we are only 6 1/2 games back.
Blanco,cf…Escobar,ss…Chipper,3b…Bay,lf…McCann,c…LaRoche,1b …Johnson,2b…Francoeur,rf
Why not??
By Dr. Feelgood
July 25, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this
RE: 11:06
Do you suppose Tim Kurkijan is a Cro-Nasal Sapien?
Is Frenchy in an Entelechy Funk?
By 30YrBravesFan
July 25, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this
Anybody else see MLB.COM article that talked about Kansas City’s interest in Francoeur???!!!
By Lew
July 25, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this
Shaun-Thank you for letting me know about wisdom. After 57 years of life, I never had an inkling, right?
Dude-For the entire 33 years of my marriage, I have given my wife little gifts for occasions like Valentines and Halloween-the smaller holidays. One year for Halloween, I gave her a little pumpkin that had a string that when pulled incited a recording of maniacal laughter-just a cheap little Wal Mart thing. That pumpkin reminds me of you when someone questions your use of stats to virtually dissect ad nauseum, every move made on a baseball field. Only difference is, I bet you don’t laugh maniacally, you just sputter and spit on your monitor screen and keyboard.
Haven’t you realized yet that I’m just intentionally provoking a Pavlovian response? Dude, I use some stats too. I just don’t get carried away like you do. I do like to watch you foam at the mouth, though.
By Shaun
July 25, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this
brent a., do we remember how many shots Jordan or Laettner missed at the end of a game? Do we remember the tournaments Tiger did not win when he was perfectly healthy?
All pro athletes want to perform and excel in those situations. It’s not just a matter of wanting to perform and excel in those situations.
Yes, those players came through in clutch situations. And they are all amazing. But did they have some ability that others did not have besides being better than everyone?
By David O'Brien
July 25, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this
Damn, now I know why some players don’t answer the phone when we call. I just did a 25-minute interview with a GQ writer who’s doing a story on Chipper Jones. I’m exhausted, and the story has nothing to do with me.
By j-school dropout
July 25, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this
I respect Chipper. But did anyone actually expect him to criticize Bobby. Too much of a class act for that. But Bobby has made some atrocious decisions the last few years. Think of all the games we lost last year because he wouldn’t move AJ down in the order. The same this year with Francouer. And why he kept Escobar in the leadoff spot for so long, boggles the mind. Blanco is an ideal leadoff man. But the most damning thing is all those one-run losses. That’s a clear sign of managerial problems, regardless of the injuries.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 25, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this
8Lew,*
I appreciate the passion (lord knows, I can get going pretty well myself), but Shaun offered a perfectly civil and reasonable response. I didn’t see any foam from my perch.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 25, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this
From the NY Post:
Dodgers have an interest in Robinson Cano and might be willing to deal Derek Lowe and outfielder Matt Kemp, but the Yankees aren’t inclined to part with the red-hot second baseman unless there is a front-of-the-rotation-type starter coming to The Bronx. Lowe, who has the stomach for big games and has AL East experience with the Red Sox, doesn’t fit that bill.
So if Kemp is available, there’s a destination for Tex and/or Ohman.
Would the Dodgers — looking for a SS, an impact hitter and bullpen help — swap Kemp, Loney/LaRoche and Lowe for Tex, Lilly and Ohman?
Is that a ridiculously one-sided deal? Lowe, Tex and Ohman are FAs. Loney/LaRoche would take over at 1B, and Kemp could play any of the three OF spots.
By David O'Brien
July 25, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this
Shaun, we agree on so much, and I respect your opinions on so many baseball matters. But I never understand how you can continually assert that players are all the same when it comes to performing under pressure or in the clutch. They’re not. Period. Players will tell you this. Managers will tell you this. Writers and broadcasters will tell you this. And fans — most fans will tell you this, because they see it with their own eyes.
You say A-Rod’s been fine in the postseason. No,he has not. Sheff? No, more often than not he’s stunk in the postseason. Andruw? After his initial postseason burst, as a rook, he struggled mightily in the postseason for nearly a decade before having another big one with the Braves.
It just is. Stop trying to explain away the human element in baseball and other sports. It’s there. Joe Montana was a brilliant player in pressure situations (and brilliant in non-pressure situations, too; but his performances in the biggest games were what separated him from the merely very good/great other quarterbacks, what made him a legendary figure).
John Elway, Brett Favre … they are remembered for fourth-quarter performances. Michael Jordan made the big shot so many times — from The Shot at UNC. to The Shot against Cleveland. and The Shot against Utah, etc.; Kobe and LeBron have not made those shots, at least not in the very biggest moments. They will not be on Jordan’s level until they do (and they won’t, mark it down).
Look at Smoltz’s postseason numbers. You think it’s just coincidence that his are so much better than so many other pitchers of similar regular-season pedigree? I think not. Dude’s got “It,” the ability to produce his best performances in the most pressure-filled situations. A few have it, and most don’t. You will never, ever convince most of us otherwise, because your view on the matter just flies in the face of everything we see ourselves and everything that so many in the game, who play the game, have said about those special players who come through consistently in the biggest moments.
And no, Francoeur doing it for his first year or two in the majors in the ninth — inning of regular season games several times does not at all fall into that category, so please don’t try to use that as an example of how it can change year to year. Not even remotely similar to examples I cited above.
By Lennie G
July 25, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this
If we become sellers, I wouldn’t be surprised if a trade goes down that none of us are even thinking about (considering the Braves are always pretty tight-lipped about such things). I obviously don’t know that to be certain, but it definitely wouldn’t surprise me.
Like some have suggested, I also think a smart move would be to be BOTH a seller and a buyer. I see no reason to do a fire sale (not saying they would) especially since the Braves are probably only a couple of pieces away from being a legit contender in 2009.
By Lew
July 25, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this
BravesFanInRockies-Dude, it’s a running thing between Shaun and me. We have been going back and forth for over three years on what reliance one should put on various stats.
Quite honestly, I would probably enjoy going to a game with Shaun (provided he leaves his calculator at home). He’s generally one of the nicer people on the blog (certainly nicer than me, though I’m misunderstood, right?).
No big deal, just having some fun. Don’t make more of it than is really there, OK?
By Lew
July 25, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this
BravesFanIn Rockies-Don’t forget I’m also a master of understatement and exaggeration, too.
By rammerjammer
July 25, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this
With our lack of outfielders, perhaps some thought should be given to relocating Kelly Johnson to LF again. Prado strikes me as a more than serviceable second baseman.
By N8
July 25, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this
BravesFanInRockies
Based on this comment from the NY Post, (“Lowe, who has the stomach for big games.”), I think Shaun should email them and let them know that those types of players don’t exist. A pitcher is either good enough or not.
Ramdom
“No, that was my bad. I screwed up.”
That’s cool. Just making sure I wasn’t missing some underlying sarcasm. Since I’ve been accusing some of not catching mine.
nolie
I agree in general. I just think there are many other factors that come into play above and beyond nerves. You have divorces, or marriage troubles in general. You have players with children dealing with health issues, guys with financial issues.
ANY number of things outside of their ability to play ball, can factor into their focus or ability to come through in the clutch. Including an opponent that is ALSO trying to come through in the clutch. Somebody has to fail AND succeed in every “big” AB in the playoffs, right?
Quack Quack
“I’d say it was a tossup between a certain disdain for your general long-winded idiocy and an attempt to get your goat… which seems to have worked.”
Fair enough. Consider my goat “gotten”.
Coach
“Not to pile on….”
Uh….OK. But here’s the thing. I’m guessing there are HUNDREDS of trades over a GM’s career that they could have made. Many that we will never know about. But ultimately we can only judge the ones that WERE made, because the rest (at least the fine details) is all hearsay. If it is true that Bobby turned that trade down as GM, it is certainly too bad.
But my guess is that it’s not the best trade (in hindsight) that he’s turned down, and JS more than likely turned a few good ones down as well.
Hard to judge. But I’m with the blogger that made the Chipper Jones/Howard Johnson comment.
With Howard Johnson on the roster, it’s unlikely that the Braves take Chipper. Then again, at that point in his career, Ho-Jo was playing more 3B than SS, and after all, Chipper was drafted to play SS and was only moved to 3B after he blew out his knee and more than likely lost some range.
Again…..who really knows? Had Van Poppel not been a frickin idiot, we don’t have Chipper Jones any how.
How scary is THAT?
By BravesFanInRockies
July 25, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this
Lew,
Well put, my man. Now we’re yanking each other’s chains. The back and forth is fun, ain’t it?
I must say I’ve met (virtually) all sort of folks on the blog I’d greatly enjoy a game with as well.
And I know I spend much more time on it than my employer would appreciate (if the superiors knew that!!)
By chris
July 25, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this
DOB and others,
I would say that you can’t have enough pitching. But if we become sellers we definitely need to think in terms of multiple outfielders and a 1b. We have both a bullpen and a starting rotation for the future: Hudson, Jurriens, Campillo, Morton. Next year, I say Reyes, James, Lerew, Hanson, and possibly Glavine are all in the mix. Let’s get some offense!
Chris from MD
By chris
July 25, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this
DOB and others,
I would say that you can’t have enough pitching. But if we become sellers we definitely need to think in terms of multiple outfielders and a 1b. We have both a bullpen and a starting rotation for the future: Hudson, Jurriens, Campillo, Morton. Next year, I say Reyes, James, Lerew, Hanson, and possibly Glavine are all in the mix. Let’s get some offense!
Chris from MD
By ncscoots
July 25, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this
Lew, I don’t know, man…in the years we’ve conversed with Shaun on any number of topics, I’ve always considered him non-foaming. Seriously, the guy has been ripped by bloggers in ways that would have me cleaning my pistols, and he almost never gets overly irate. I can only remember a few times that he has gotten even mildly angry, LOL.
Shaun may be a lot of things (some of which make me want to shake him by the neck, LOL), but he’s not one of our venom-spitting morons holding a baseball CV of “once saw the definition of baseball in a dictionary”. That puts the old Shaunster near the front of the line around THIS here venue.
But, I swear, if I hear “park-adjusted” one more time, the man is gonna BLEED!
By BravesFan'sBossIsMonitoring
July 25, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this
Get back to work BFIR or you’re fired!
By Doc Holliday
July 25, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this
*rammerjammer *
That point has been addressed like 1 million times on the blog, but apparently Cox doesnt thinks it is a good idea…….Go figure……
bgkahuna
I would also trade Reyes for Yunel……..I like yunels power and fielding better, but their is no substitute for speed……….*just think about how many of those 1 run games braves whould have won if Reyes was around. * Maybe half and we would be in 1st.
By Doc Holliday
July 25, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this
chris
I dont see Glavine coming next year……..he might get hurt again this season……..I think his elbow injury is very serious……
By FJR
July 25, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this
After watching Francouer for a while, I just have to think his vision is fading fast. Not being able to see the ball can certainly cause you to look like an idiot at the plate.
It’s not like Francouer’s sole problem is that he’s always over agggressive. He takes a lot of strikes as well. There’s nothing more frustrating than the typical Francouer at bat where he swings wildly and misses badly on the first pitch, then watches strike to fall in as a very hittable pitch.
At games, I’m noticing he’s not getting the same jump on the ball in the outfield he used to. That has nothing to do with speed or his ankle, its just taking him longer to react to a hit ball. Very easily could come from him not seeing the ball coming off the bat as well as he used to.
So here is my hypothesis, Francouer once had amazing vision. It allowed him to accel when he might not have the most fundamentally sound swing or the greatest hand-eye coordination, he just saw the ball earlier and had more time than most players. Now his vision is either average or below average and its making him look stupid.
By don
July 25, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this
Peter Gammons on ESPN Wednesday:
The Braves will not win their division.
The Braves will not be the wildcard team.
There is little or no market for Teixeira.
Peter Gammons Thurdsay night on ESPN
This last observation should have been obvious even before the trade.
By Different Take
July 25, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this
There is little or no market for Teixeira.
There isn’t. No team will match the two draft picks the Braves could get if they kept him and let him walk. End of story. I bet Tex gets traded for some scrub like Chad Tracy….and Tracy alone.
By MGL
July 25, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this
DOB, are you or Carroll covering the Philly series?
By Gil In Mechanicsville
July 25, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this
Just Lew being Lew… :-)
By DAP
July 25, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this
There is little or no market for Teixeira.
i think the dodgers and the dbacks would both like to have him…but who knows what they are willing to give? if we want to trade tex, there WILL be teams that want him…its just a matter of how bad they want him. LA and arizona both need him.
By Shaun
July 25, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this
DOB, I don’t think major league players are significantly different as far as their ability to perform in the clutch or in pressure situations.
Yes, obviously some players have performed better than others in clutch or pressure situations. But I just don’t think it’s due to the fact that they have some sort of ability that is significantly better than other major league players to handle or overcome pressure or to step up in big situations.
That’s all I’m saying. Because I think stepping up in pressure or clutch situations is a prerequisite for playing in the highest sports leagues in the world.
By ArkyTech
July 25, 2008 12:41 PM | Link to this
FJR, I have long thought that Francoeur’s problem is likely vision related. In high school I developed “lazy eye” in my left eye muscle - still had better than 20/20 vision but couldn’t see a curve from the right side anymore. I totally lost my “hitting zone” due to such a minor change in my eyesight that it took the eye doctor two exams to even detect anything - and only because I insisted that I “couldn’t see the ball anymore.”
If the slightest change in sight can have that affect on a high school player, imagine what it can do to a player facing ML pitching.
Of course, I was no Jeff Francoeur (but we did beat Parkview when they were nationally ranked!).
By Shaun
July 25, 2008 12:47 PM | Link to this
don, who would be playing first for the Braves right now? And where would Saltalamacchia play? His not a firstbaseman; he loses a lot of value offensively and defensively if you put him there. Andrus is blocked by Escobar and Lillibridge and he’s probably a ways away from the big leagues. And they gave up a young pitcher, which are always injury risks.
So, good trade for Texas, good trade for the Braves.
By Wayne in Utah
July 25, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this
Shaun: In your response to DOB, I understand what you are saying. In order to get to and be successful (to make it to the majors, even in a minimal role, is success) a player must be capable of performing under pressure.
BUT, when you then examine all those players at that level, there is still that something that seperates those that are successful, and those that thrive to be the man up with 2 outs in the ninth. As great as ARod is, it seems he will never be as good in the spotlight as Reggie Jackson, “Mr. October.” Even though Reggie’s career numbers will pale in comparison to ARod’s.
Kobe will never be Michael. Joe Montana was “the man” in the 2 minute drill.
By Bay Area Steve
July 25, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this
DesiBrave:
thanks for the Francouer blooper link last night (10:15).
I highly recommend a viewing by the denizens; ‘tis good for at least a 20 second laugh, for those who haven’t seen it before.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 25, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this
From a story featuring Scott Boras in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette regarding the signing bonuses expected by top draft choices::
*A look back at Boras’ three examples:
• Teixeira, now with the Atlanta Braves, was drafted by the Texas Rangers in 2001, and his signing bonus was $4.5 million with an overall guarantee of $9.5 million through a major league contract. It set a new standard.
• J.D. Drew, now with the Boston Red Sox, refused to sign with the Philadelphia Phillies in seeking a $10 million signing bonus in 1997. He signed a four-year, $7 million contract with the St. Louis Cardinals the following year.
• Stephen Drew, originally drafted by the Pirates but unsigned, went back to school and re-entered the draft in 2004. He got a $4 million signing bonus from the Arizona Diamondbacks, plus a contract with a potential worth of $7.5 million.*
The point being, the Braves have to think about more than draft picks when considering whether to trade Tex or Ohman or anyone else. There are payroll implications of choosing draft picks over prospects.
The Braves will have to invest a lot more money up front to sigh draft picks than they would to acquire through trade a prospect who’s already been paid his bonus from his original team. In the case of prospects, the Braves would be on the hook for only the ML minimum salary if the player makes the big club.
I’m not the first person to mention this on the blog but I’m sure this factor is playing a role in the front office’s discussions of whether to keep Tex.
It’s similar to buying a used car in pristine condition that’s been leased for one or two years. You get the car that’s almost new in prime shape but you don’t have to pay the depreciation.
By Lee in S GA
July 25, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this
If we become sellers, I wouldn’t be surprised if a trade goes down that none of us are even thinking about (considering the Braves are always pretty tight-lipped about such things). I obviously don’t know that to be certain, but it definitely wouldn’t surprise me.
Lennie G
Too me that is what makes trades intersting. Sometimes is for a player or players never mentioned. Don’t think anyone saw the players coming from Detroit we got for Renteria until it happen. By-the-way you are probably correct. I just hope Different Take is wrong about Chad Tracy unles a little more baggage comes with him.
By Shaun
July 25, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this
As great as ARod is, it seems he will never be as good in the spotlight as Reggie Jackson, “Mr. October.” Even though Reggie’s career numbers will pale in comparison to ARod’s.
Maybe, maybe not. But it’s not about whether Reggie will be better than A-Rod in the spotlight. It’s about whether it’s due to some ability or inability of either player to handle clutch or pressure situations significantly better or worse than the other.
If A-Rod can’t handle pressure, why has he been able to do anything in clutch or pressure situations?
If Reggie has some superior ability in clutch or pressure situations, why did he fail sometimes in clutch or pressure situations?
I am completely opened to the fact that I could be wrong in my beliefs about this. But so far the evidence I’ve seen just doesn’t seem to tell me that certain players have an ability or inability to perform significantly better or worse than others in the clutch or under pressure.
By ElbravoX-- EbX
July 25, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this
Braves’ new world: They’re split on selling
There is believed to be something of a split among key Braves decision-makers about whether to buy or sell. And the big holdout in favor of going for it is — no surprise — manager Bobby Cox, who is likely in his penultimate season in the manager’s chair.
Cox has been known to extend an argument — no kidding, he holds the major league record for lifetime ejections — but the guess here is that logic will eventually prevail. It is thought that legendary front-office fixture John Schuerholz and his replacement as GM Frank Wren will understand before the July 31 deadline that this just isn’t the Braves’ year.
Chipper Jones (hamstring) and Tim Hudson (elbow) joined an ever-expanding roster of Braves stars in sick bay. While Jones may only miss the weekend and the club is being cautiously optimistic regarding Hudson, there’s still the reality that John Smoltz is out for the year, Tom Glavine is still days away from rehab and Mike Hampton is a longshot to become a contributor (they’ll probably throw him into a game soon, but who can have faith at this point?).
By David O'Brien
July 25, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this
I’ll second what ncscoots said at 11:55, regarding Shaun. Definitely not one of the irrational and/or angry “foamers.”
By the way, anyone wants to hear a terrific baseball song with a Phillies angle (appropriate, consider the series that starts tonight), check out Chuck Brodsky’s “Letter in the Dirt,” about Richie Allen and how he was booed by the home fans in Philly (there’s also a reference to the famous incident where Santa was hit with snowballs in Philly).
The title “Letters in the Dirt” (from Brodsky’s album of same name, and also done on his great live album “Two Sets”) refers to the “Boo” that Allen would write in the dirt, the outspoken great player’s response to those fans.
By bravos2249
July 25, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this
BravesFaninRockies
I’m not the first person to mention this on the blog but I’m sure this factor is playing a role in the front office’s discussions of whether to keep Tex.
I never thought about that…these day draftees cost alot of money. The Braves could end up paying 20 million to sign those 2 picks.
Also if the Braves do trade Tex, he’ll likely sign with a team that doesn’t have high picks.
The point about arbitration someone made earlier…if Tex signs a deal with Atlanta next year he could be making that arbitration salary of about 17-18 million.
I think the Braves just need to make sure if they try to sign Tex(longer than 5 yrs) to not have to pay him 20 million until his 2nd or 3rd contract year.
(I think I might redo my salary thing I did to see if I was right or not.)
By keylargo
July 25, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this
Different Take
Did a lot of research on your 12:19 pm post did you?
Well, I’ll point out to you that Jon Heyman of cnnsi.com wrote a column on Wednesday that completely refutes what you are saying about the Braves not being able to beat the two draft picks they would get if Tex becomes a FA.
You might want to check it out.
By Hardest Ball Hit
July 25, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this
Speaking of Richie Allen or “Dick” as he later prefered, (or was it the other way around?) It was probably ‘68 or ‘69, I was a kid watching the Phils play the Braves in old Fulton County stadium, Allen hit the hardest ball I have ever seen a human being hit! He went the other way and killed a liner that Felix Millan leaped for. What makes this special was that when the ball came down, it landed about 5 feet short of the warning track! It literally defied physics! After the ball cleared Millan at second, it found another gear!
Yeah, I’ve been watching the Braves for a while!
By Wayne in Utah
July 25, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this
bravos2249
No doubt that with potentially the salaries of Smoltz, Hampton, Glavine, Kotsay and others coming off the books next year (making an assumption about some of these players not coming back), we would have the wherewithall to sign Tex to a +20 million per year salary.
Problem with that idea is we become the ARod Rangers. One player with an inordinate percentage of the team salary. It just doesn’t work.
For sure though, I would offer him arbitration if he is not dealt.
I still like the buy AND sell scenario. I think we have enough arms in the pen to absorb the loss of Ohman, and if we got a major league bat in a trade for Tex, then we need to add another outfield bat (Nady, Bay, Ibanez, Winn, etc)
By Wayne in Utah
July 25, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this
Anxiously/patiently awaiting updates on Chipper, Hudson, and Hampton………
DOB Any repercussions on Rollin’s late appearance and subsequent benching last night in NYC?
By BravesFanInRockies
July 25, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this
Shaun, agreed about the trade for Tex. We won’t really know whether this was a good deal or a bad one for some time.
If the Braves fail to make the postseason then the trade would not have accomplished its initial objective — get the Braves into the playoffs in ‘07 or ‘08.
Otherwise, what do we know? The players the Braves get for Tex, either in a trade or as draft choices in the offseason, may make the club better than it would have been if the Braves had kept the five prospects.
We don’t know if Andrus or Jones or Neftali will ever be good major leaguers? Salty hasn’t exactly dazzled. Harrison made it to the bigs, but would he had he stayed a Brave?
Also remember the deal that brought Renteria to the Braves? It turns out that the Braves swapped Andy Marte for Jair and Gorkys Hernandez. In 2003, you could have never seen that coming.
By Thrillhouse44
July 25, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this
Pretty cool song. Here’s a link. The first 3:43 is Chuck giving a little background of the song. YouTube
Go Braves!
By Different Take
July 25, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this
KeyLargo, if beats the two draft picks means Chad Tracy and a decent pitching prospect(Arizona isn’t giving up Parker or Scherzer), then we have a different view on what “beats” two draft picks.
By Shaun
July 25, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this
Thanks for the compliments, scoots and DOB. I just don’t feel the need to get worked up on a blog. The point is to have baseball discussion. I just try to express things in the ways that make sense to me. Someone disagrees, so be it.
While we’re on the subject of controversial topics and stats, anyone with espninsider read Neyer’s blog today?
He talks about a segment of Costas Now in which he discusses the lack of African-Americans in the big leagues.
According to the numbers in the segment, the number of African-Americans has gone from nearly 30 percent to less than 10 percent.
Neyer brings up research by Mark Armour. According to his research, the number of black Americans peaked at 20 percent in 1975 and was between 17-20 percent from 1973-1996. If you count all black players, including Latinos, you get around 28 percent first in the late 1980s. And if you count all black players today, you get 40 percent and rising. The number of black Americans in the majors has declined since 1996 but not quite as dramatically as some would have you believe.
That would seem to suggest racism isn’t keeping black players out of the game. This would also lead you to believe maybe baseball was never as big a sport among black Americans as some would have you believe, which I have heard from other researchers.
By David O'Brien
July 25, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this
Hardest Ball HIt: I’ve heard a lot of old-timers say Richie Allen hit balls harder than anyone they ever saw. Allen, Willie McCovey, Frank Howard. Always hear those guys mentioned in that vein.
By Wayne in Utah
July 25, 2008 2:02 PM | Link to this
DOB Any news on Chuck James progress in Richmond. From the stat sheet, he appears to be doing well.
Any thoughts from the gang on the fate of Johnny Estrada, just cut from the Nationals. Is his arm healed enough for him to be a serviceable backup catcher? I know his BA was quite low. Would he be any better than Corky for about four hundred thousand dollars more? Will the Yankees be interested?
By blackskies
July 25, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this
DOB hey did u ever comment on FIRE JOE MORGAN killing u on ur TEX article?
By David O'Brien
July 25, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this
Thrillhouse, you’re the man. Great job posting that link.
By Shaun
July 25, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this
Wayne in Utah, I too like a buy and sell scenario. I think an adequate leftfielder and an adequate firstbaseman plus a very good prospect would be a great move, if possible.
By Wayne in Utah
July 25, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this
Dick Allen also swung a very heavy bat, or maybe it was just a medium sized tree. Not a light-weight bat like so many of the current players swing.
Who are the players now who still swing a heavy bat?
Shaun Don’t tell Terrance. It will ruin his career.
By A-ville Ranger
July 25, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this
That period between the start of the 1991 season and july 31st 2005. The Braves averaged 98.5 wins over 162 games.We’ll never see that again, from any team.
By bravos2249
July 25, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this
BravesFanInRockies
that’s one mistake I think JS made or whoever said it first…the Tex trade was for hoping to get to the post season..but it probably shouldn’t have been said like that.
Because that’s why many fans have hated on Tex…they don’t look at what he’s done, just that he’s SUPPOSE to get us to the postseason…and 1 player….3 players can’t do that.
Sometimes it’s as if just because Tex was added that he was suppose to be superman, or something. but when you get that type of player others in the lineup still have to show up, if they don’t then we get a game like Tues., Chipper/Tex/Mac on base and left there.
By David O'Brien
July 25, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this
Oh, and anyone going to that link, make SURE you watch it till the end. The story will get a lump in your throat or bumps on your arm, if you’re at all sentimental about childhood heroes and such.
By David O'Brien
July 25, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this
blackskies: yes, we commented. I loved it. Great stuff. Kinda cool, actually, being the target.
By braves70
July 25, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this
Wayne, I can’t see Estrada having much chance of coming back to Atlanta. He had that blow up with Ned Yost in Milwaukee last year and since Ned is one of Bobby’s boys, Estrada has probably burned his bridges.
I read somewhere that the Yanks might take a shot at Miguel Olivo of KC. Olivio always killed the Braves during his time with the Marlins.
By Thrillhouse44
July 25, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this
No problem, DOB. Thanks for pointing it out.
If I were to write a song about a childhood hero, it’d be titled “Dirt Bike in the Tree”. I don’t think Ronnie would take to kindly to that.
By Shaun
July 25, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this
BravesFanInRockies, the Braves gave up expendable prospects and/or prospects that are more risky than other prospects for a chance to make the post-season. Even if the Braves don’t make the playoffs, I don’t think you can look back and say it was a bad trade. I seriously doubt that’s the way front offices look at these things, for the most part.
I mean, throughout baseball history there aren’t all that many trades that you could say at the time that the GM really made a huge mistake.
Think back to Smoltz for Alexander. The Tigers won 98 games and needed another starter behind Morris. Alexander gave up only 16 runs in 88.3 innings for the rest of that season. I’m guessing any GM would take that during a 98-win season because you never know when your franchise will get another shot. And Smoltz wasn’t going to help them win anything that season.
Even Babe Ruth’s sale wasn’t all that head-scratching at the time. Contrary to popular belief, it wasn’t all about No, No, Nanette. Harry Frazee wasn’t fond of Ruth’s salary demands nor his recklessness. It was a risk for the Yankees, one that they could afford to take, and to say it paid off is an understatement.
By Ben
July 25, 2008 2:39 PM | Link to this
DOB, not trying to call you out, but why don’t you post any of the rumors that guys like Gammons, Stark, Heyman, Rosenthal, and a few others do on almost a daily basis? The stuff you let us in on is typically your impressions of what Wren WOULD do or WILL do if this or that happens, but it’s never specific as to what other teams have actually offered or what the Braves have actually inquired about. I understand that a lot of is likely rumors, but do you not have any access to people in Wren’s office so as to find out particular names that have been discussed between GMs? Just heard that Gammons reported discussions b/w Braves and D’Backs for Chad Tracy and a couple pitching prospects, including Jarrod Parker.
By yippidy yee
July 25, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this
I’ll second what ncscoots said at 11:55, regarding Shaun. Definitely not one of the irrational and/or angry “foamers.”
Lol. it’s apparent from reading the blog for the last 2 years that Shaun is a favorite of the great Dave.
Not one of the angry “foamers”, true. But not irrational? Hardly.
I think Shaun is the one that makes most bloggers Foamy with his nasty “discussion” techniques. Instead of reading your posts entirely, he’ll debate it with either meaningless stats (the braves have scored more runs than they’ve allowed), or fail to see your point and make you argue in circles, reprove your point that you initially stated an hour earlier. It’s always frustrating arguing with the man of “reason”….
Please. Shaun is rational when not in a discussion. A true braves fan, sticks to his point. But in discussions? Not entirely.
By Wayne in Utah
July 25, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this
Ben Not to answer for Dave, but I think you answered your own question. Why should Dave cut/paste rumors that are already accessible to anyone with an internet connection?
The BLOG is for discussion, not a sports news bulletin board.
Gotta run, check back in around game time.
By TennesseePaul
July 25, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this
Carroll has posted a New Blog
By Moby Grape
July 25, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this
“LOL,(there that better?)Who is it exactly that hits that .750 for you dude?”
To which I responded:
“The fact that you completely missed the sarcasm in that statement explains a lotH8
I consider your normal posts to be so foolish that I could take anything that you say at face value and believe that you mean it H8. Sarcasm can only be suspected if you think that the deliverer is intelligent enough to create it,and your continual long-winded blatherings in order to feel like a big-shot and get attention have never caused me to expect anything better. Sorry I missed that one , dude. Maybe in another year or so you will show another spark of intelligence. I’ll try to be right on top of that one.
By TennesseePaul
July 25, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this
That would seem to suggest racism isn’t keeping black players out of the game
Yes, but is this really the case? Perhaps it is racism specifically towards inner city American blacks. I’ve seen no stats which prove otherwise. The numbers given could be explained by any number of reasons.
By Ben
July 25, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
Wayne (and DOB), maybe I wasn’t clear, but I didn’t mean to ask DOB to re-post already-reported rumors, but rather I was questioning why DOB doesn’t seem to have access to such inside information as those guys do. I mean, DOB is the beat reporter, seemingly has a very good relationship with all the office guys, so where’s the info? That’s all.
By TennesseePaul
July 25, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this
I should say, I’m not completely against the idea. I could very well be wrong. But I haven’t seen any numbers which conclusively prove otherwise. Find me some numbers over a large enough sample size, sworn testimony, and the exact conversations of all major league officials for the past 40 years and then we’ll re-evaluate the situation. The burden of proof is on the state. They have to prove - t me - beyond a reasonable doubt.
But Mr. Chappell, aren’t your doubts unreasonable?
By monty
July 25, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this
Shaun:
I think your last sentence at 1:58 rings true. I grew up in South Ga. in an area with around 40-50% black population. WHat you never saw during the summer or anytime of year was black kids on a baseball diamond. Where they would congregate was at the nearest basketball goal.(Even in 90 degree heat)
In organized baseball which I played every year, we had several white teams but for whatever reason there was usually at most only 2 all black teams, whether it was Little League or Pony league or even American Legion ball. Just didn’t seem to be that much interest there.
By Moby Grape
July 25, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this
Anyone catch Burn Notice on USA? Surprisingly entertaining show. Sort of a CSI mixed with 24THWG
I like it a lot. Watched all of the first season last year and it recently came out on DVD.
By LuisGuillermo
July 25, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this
Any word on Chipper for this weekend series?
By DAP
July 25, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this
it doesnt seem like shaun wants to discuss baseball as much as he wants to win arguments. its more like a excersise in debate to him rather than a community of braves fans. thats my perception anyways. obviously i dont know shaun. or do i?
By monty
July 25, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
Just observing the Braves stats compared with other teams and what immediately jumps out at you is the road losses. THE Braves are very good at home, among the best in the National league and they are essentially tied with the Nats for the worst road record in the league. Dr. Jekyl and Mr.Hyde and of course many of the road losses were by 1 run.
So how close were we to being a really good team, evidently no that far. Most teams are sitting around .500 on the road give or take a couple of games. If the Braves had played .500 on the road, WEll you know what they say in golf about ifa shoulda, if a frog had wings he could fly.
By guffawingoutloud
July 25, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
you guys just kill me. n9 saw huddy shaking off his arm at 908pm july 23 and then champ at 1025pm saw huddy shaking his arm on the bench. wonder if he was saying ugly things to it? been away for a coupla days and just getting caught up on the wonder boys and girls prescriptions for success on here.
By David O'Brien
July 25, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this
Carroll called to say Chipper’s not in the lineup (as we expected he wouldn’t be) but Bobby’s out in bullpen right now, so no news yet on extent of his and Huddy’s injuries.
By David O'Brien
July 25, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this
HAMPTON IS STARTING TOMORROW. Gonna write a quick couple graphs for online now.
By David O'Brien
July 25, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
Here’s what I just filed:
Philadelphia — Mike Hampton will pitch in a major league game Saturday. Seriously.
Barring any last-minute setbacks, the veteran Braves left-hander will make his first major league start in 35 months on Saturday against the Philadelphia Phillies, manager Bobby Cox announced Friday.
“Right now, he is [scheduled to start Saturday], said Cox, who was convinced Hampton was ready after a Tuesday bullpen session in Florida. “His last bullpen, it couldn’t get any better than that.”
Cox said Tim Hudson, who left Wednesday’s game at Florida after six innings due to tightness near his pitching elbow, felt significantly better and is expected to make his next scheduled start Tuesday against St. Louis.
Hampton will pitch the middle game of the crucial series against the Phillies in place of young lefty Jo-Jo Reyes, who has lost five consecutive starts. Reyes is scheduled to move to Monday’s series opener against the Cardinals.
Cox didn’t elaborate, but it would appear that rookie Charlie Morton is the odd man out of the rotation, at least for now. His next turn would have been Monday if the Braves hadn’t shuffled the rotation.
Hampton, 35, has been sidelined all season by a twice-strained pectoral muscle and, most recently, a strained groin.
Three times this season, the former 22-game winner has been injured just before what would have been his first start _ once during his pregame warmup in the first week of the season, and twice in his last scheduled minor league rehab start.
Barring some unforeseen injury between now and the first pitch Saturday, Hampton will pitch for the first time in a regulation game since his last start Aug. 14, 2005.
He went 5-3 with a 3.50 ERA in 12 starts in 2005, and missed the 2006-2007 seasons recovering from two separate elbow surgeries. Hampton is making $15 million this season in the final year of an eight-year, $121 million contract he signed with Colorado before the 2001 season.
He was traded to the Braves after the 2002 season and has a 32-20 record and 3.96 ERA in 72 starts for Atlanta, including 14-8 in 2003 and 13-9 in 2004.
By Who does OhNo Reyes have naked photos of?
July 25, 2008 7:02 PM | Link to this
I am livid that it’s going to be Charlie Morton sent down instead of Reyes. What a crock. What in the hell are they thinking?!?
By Doc Holliday
July 25, 2008 8:26 PM | Link to this
Here we go………lets win this series guys………
Go Braves………
Doesnt matter what muts do……..we just need to win 89 games………and that we will do by keep winning every single series……..
One more thing……..please………dont load the bases anymore……..we just cant score if bases are loaded.
By spouse without
July 25, 2008 10:33 PM | Link to this
The Braves..hmmm…love em, but ya know what..love my spouse more. It’s amazing how 2, close, loving married people can admit to all the interference in their marriage and want to work things out…but “Oh My, Honey, the games on!!”“. Go figure, we both love sports and follow it, but put the relationship out there and….”Honey, I know things are bad but THE BRAVES are playing!!:…then they walk away to put it on the computer and on TV…wonder which will win…PC, TV!! May the best electronic win! Although I love my sports and I love my spouse, it is apparent, I don’t mean as much as the sport. I wonder if the Braves are gonna come to their aid when they are sick, cook their meals, fix their coffee, deal with the kids..hmmm, what are the odds. Braves over Love….who will win? Honey, I love you and wanna make it work, but the games on!!
By DC DAVE
July 25, 2008 10:46 PM | Link to this
Some of you folks need to get a grip. Chipper. ALLSTAR 3rd Baseman, is not/not moving to 1st. So don’t spin fantasies from your parent’s basement that have that scenario. The Tex trade was a decent shot at 2 playoff runs, we gave up nobody who had any chance of startng for a mediocre team; that it didn’t pan out is not the GM’s fault. Cox is Cox - no better 162-game season manager, maybe no worse short series manager. But, the horses have to run, and no manager can speed them up. fianlly, Frenchy never did much in the minors (look it up), caame on strong, but has been found out. He never learned how to be a major league hitter, and won’t without some serious minor league time. He’s not figuring it out on his own.
By qojhk kdmiwbufy
November 7, 2008 6:26 AM | Link to this
ieampl aywu nsugq ripv imlqrdfoz fvjlk rwvjet