AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2008 > July > 21 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USTrading Tex not as simple as some think
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Raise you hands if you thought that on July 21, the Braves would be opening this series in Florida with the Marlins playing for a share of first place and the Braves contemplating trading away a star this late in the season for the first time since, well, since Dale Murphy was traded away on Aug. 4, 1990?
And keep in mind, Murph was nearing the end of his career and didn’t object to being shipped away given the Braves’ situation in that last season before The Run began a year later.
Mark Teixeira is not near the end of his career, he’s 28, right in the middle of his peak years.
But that’s where the Braves are today, at least six games behind three different teams in the NL East, coming off a terrible pair of losses against Washington at Turner Field over the weekend that might well have pulled the lever on the Teixeira (and Will Ohman) trade machinery.
It’s not the 6-1/2-game deficit that makes a postseason push such a formidable task for the Braves at this point. Plenty of teams have overcome deficits greater than that in less time than there is remaining in this season.
No, it’s the fact that there are three teams with 6- or 6-1/2-game leads over the Braves in the NL East that makes this just about an insurmountable task. Because the Braves have let three teams build significant leads on them, they now are not in control of their own destiny by any stretch of the imagination.
Because now the Braves would have to hope that not one, not two, but three teams would all struggle while, oh yeah, they themselves finally put together a solid run of baseball.
Stranger things have happened … but not too many stranger things.
That miserable homestand was exactly what the Braves did not need if they wanted to try to convince anyone, including GM Frank Wren, that they had a realistic shot at turning this around and reeling in the division leaders.
Don’t know if Frank decided at some point during yesterday’s four-error debacle that it was time to ramp up trade talks, but wouldn’t surprise me (this is not something he’s going to discuss publicly, for obvious reasons; if the Braves want to trade Teixeira, they’d prefer other teams to think they’re not desperate and wouldn’t mind holding on to him and trying to re-sign him, etc.)
Oh, for those who’ve asked me if the Braves have any hope of re-signing Teixeira, or even plan to make an offer: I don’t know, but I get the distinct impression they are not planning to go down that road.
Just from conversations with people connected with the team in various capacities, I haven’t heard anything since spring training to make me believe they’re thinking of, or have talked to him or agent Scott Boras about, a big offer to keep Tex here.
Some who’ve talked to Boras about it say he’s sent signals that he’ll ask for $22-23 mill a year in an eight-year deal for Tex. Good luck with that. Can’t see that happening. But if anybody is capable of getting him more than most of us believe Teixeira is worth, it’s certainly Boras, who plays one team against another team, or one offer against another supposed offer from a team that nobody can pin down and many observers will often doubt actually exists.
He’s turned that into art. Offseason art. Not the kind of thing you can pull off in midseason, which is why you don’t see Boras doing the window-to-work-out-a-contract-extension thing with his clients. By that I mean, if the Braves had a deal with, say, the Angels in place that depended upon the Angels first coming to an agreement on a long-term contract extension with Teixeira, well, I can’t see Boras agreeing to do that. Can’t see that at all.
Because what team would he use as leverage? What offer could he say he’s received from this team or that, in July?
No, the way it works is when Boras gets his clients this close to free agency, he takes them all the way through to the process, where he can work his magic and somehow, some way, usually get his clients more money than we think seems plausible.
Is Teixeira, with his Gold Glove-level defense and likely .290-30-120 to .310-45-130 offensive range for many years to come, worth $20 mill a season? I’d say only to a team that has a huge payroll, at least $150 mill or so. Not to a team with a $100 mill payroll, because while he piles up stats, he’s not a player, at least from what I’ve seen, who puts a team on his back and delivers big hits when the team needs it most.
Say, for instance, during the first six weeks of this season, when the Braves were dealing with a slew of injuries and Chipper Jones was carrying the offense with help from either Brian McCann or Yunel Escobar, but not much from Tex.
Slow-starter or not (and he’s a slow-starter, every season), the Braves needed to count on him for power and RBIs, and didn’t get it on a regular basis until about two months into the season, when they were already back in the standings.
Even yesterday, his two-homer, three-RBI game didn’t have much impact, seeing that both homers were solo shots, one early in the game when the Braves were already down 6-1, and the other, well, I’d have to look it up, it was so relatively meaningless near the end of an utter blowout loss.
Anyway, this isn’t to downplay his skills or output. Both are unquestionably big. He’s durable and piles up stats, year after year. But I know an impact offensive player, a player whose performance seems bigger than his numbers because he gets so many key hits. And I know the opposite.
A-Rod, for instance. Dude piles up huge numbers, year after year. Tremendous numbers. But let me ask you, how many SportsCenter highlights can you remember this year of A-Rod late-game homers or walk-off hits? Maybe a couple or few early on, but lately?
A-Rod’s the highest paid player in the game, and many will tell you he’s the best player in the game. But he’s not the player I would build a team around if I could have any player. No way.
And Teixeira will probably become one of the top-10 paid players, maybe top-five, but honestly, I can think of at last 10 other NL players I’d rather build a team around.
Tex probably will, and should, play on a big-payroll team like Boston or the Angels, a team where his money won’t be the subject of constant scrutiny every time he doesn’t come up with a big hit. A team that has plenty of other big bats.
The problem becomes, however, trying to trade him and get value in return. Because honestly, how many teams out there do you think fit the bill to trade for him right now? That team would presumably have to 1. Be willing to pick up the $4 mill or so he’s owed the rest of the season; 2. Not care that they probably can’t be assured of re-signing him (see explanation above); and 3. Be willing to give up a young player and/or prospect or two to make it worth it to the Braves to trade him.
Because if you’re the Braves, unless you can get, say, 1B/3B Kevin Youkilis from Boston (I can’t see that happening unless Big Papi wasn’t returning, and he’s about to return) or 1B Casey Kotchman and another mid-level prospect — Chone Figgins would be even better, but that seems highly unlikely —- from the Angels, or something similar from another team, then is it really clearly in your best interests to trade him?
Or might you decide to take the draft picks — a first-round and a sandwich pick b etween the first and second rounds — and keep Teixeira the rest of the year, maybe hold out hope that the marketplace for him won’t be what he thought or he likes it so much in Atlanta that he’d take less to stay (also unlikely; the man seems to be all business, not much emotion or sentiment, when it comes to baseball).
Having said all that, I’ll bet that if Wren pulls the trigger on a deal, it’ll be a solid trade for the Braves. He really is sharp in the deal-making aspect of the business, has proven that over the years both as a GM and as an assistant GM who had a lot of responsibilities.
We’ll get into Will Ohman later. Needless to say, several teams will be ready with offers for a top-flight veteran lefty reliever at the deadline. But right now, I’ve got to get ready and get out to Dolphin Stadium.
The East co-leading Mets and Phillies are idle tonight before starting a three-game series Tuesday in New York, and the Marlins are a half-game back. That means at the end of the night the Marlins are either going to be in a three-way tie for first place and the Braves seven games behind all of them, or the Braves are going to be six games in back of first-place NY and Philly.
Etc: During his 0-5 skid over his past five starts, Jo-Jo Reyes has posted a 7.65 ERA and .353 opponents’ average, and the Braves have scored a total of one run while he’s been in those five games. They scored zero runs while he was in four straight games before getting one run while he was in yesterday’s loss….
Jeff Francoeur’s .288 OBP is the fifth-lowest among NL qualifiers (minimum 3.1 plate appearances per scheduled game), and Gregor Blanco’s .315 slugging percentage is fifth-lowest among league qualifiers….
In order to finish with a plus-.500 record in this crucial nine-game stretch, after dropping two of three to Washington the Braves would have to go 4-2 against the Marlins and Phillies on this trip. Keep in mind, they haven’t had a winning trip all season….
Braves outfielders have 20 homers, fewest in the NL. Next-lowest total belongs to Dodgers outfielders (24)….
Teixeira is hitting .379 with a 1.293 OPS and 41 RBI in 31 day games, and hitting .229 with a .689 OPS and 31 RBI in 65 night games….
Francoeur’s skid continues unabated since his return from a three-game stint in the minors, but he’s hardly the only Braves hitter struggling. Kelly Johnson has hit .234 in his past 40 games with two homers, 13 RBIs, 27 strikeouts and a .665 OPS…..
Speaking of Francoeur, he’s hit .157 (13-for-83) with one double, one homer and four RBI in his past 23 games, with four walks, 21 strikeouts and a .436 OPS. He has more errors (three) than extra-base hits in that stretch.
OK, enough misery. Let’s loosen things up with a good tune.
”GRINGO HONEYMOON” by Robert Earl Keen
We were standin’ on a mountain top
Where the cactus flowers grow
I was wishin’ that the world would stop
When you said we’d better go
We took a rowboat ‘cross the Rio Grande
Captain Pablo was our guide
For two dollars in a weathered hand
He rowed us to the other side
CHORUS:
And we were dreamin’ like the end was not in sight
And we dreamed all afternoon
We asked the world to wait so we could celebrate
A gringo honeymoon
We stepped out onto the golden sand
The sun was high and burning down
Rented donkeys from an old blind man
Saddled up and rode to town
Tied our donkeys to an ironwood tree
By the street where the children play
We walked in the first place we could see
Servin’ cold beer in the shade
CHORUS:
We were drinkin’ like the end was not in sight
And we drank all afternoon
We asked the world to wait so we could celebrate
A gringo honeymoon
Met a cowboy who said that he
Was running from the DEA
He left a home, a wife, a family
When he made his getaway
We followed him on down a street of dust
To his one room run-down shack
He blew a smoke ring and he smiled at us
I ain’t never goin’ back
CHORUS:
We were flyin’ like the end was not in sight
And we soared all afternoon
We asked the world to wait so we could celebrate
A gringo honeymoon
He said there’s one last place that you should go
He took us to the town’s best bar
He knew a crusty caballero
Who played an old gut string guitar
And he sang like Marty Robbins could
Played like no one I’ve known
For a while we knew that life was good
It was ours to take back home
CHORUS:
We were singin’ like the end was not in sight
And we sang all afternoon
We asked the world to wait so we could celebrate
A gringo honeymoon
We were standin’ on a mountain top
Where the cactus flowers grow
I was wishin’ that the world would stop
When you said we’d better go
Comments
By Original Jon
July 21, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this
First?
By Matt
July 21, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this
First? Start up the sale, baby. It’s over.
By tomahawk Kris
July 21, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this
1st?
By 18 Wheels of Love
July 21, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this
On XM a little while ago Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus said the Braves a closed door team meeting with Frank and he said that the Braves will not be sellers and that they will be buyers if anything. He then went on to say that he spoke to players after the meeting and they said Frank said Tex would not be traded and that they hoped to re-sign him.
I’m a little skeptical that kind of meeting took place. Maybe a team meeting but certainly nothing where Frank is giving out re-signing Tex statements. I think Carroll needs a follow up email from DOB.
By Random
July 21, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this
If Bobby Cox continues to refuse to play his best available players (eg, starting Norton/Prado Sat rather than Kotsay/Johnson; starting Miller Sun rather than McCann; playing Francoeur everyday rather than Blanco, Jones or even Infante), and continues to haphazardly mismanage the bullpen, then
YES
Yes, yes, yes
Bobby Cox should retire or be fired immediately.
I’m on board now. ++++++++++
ncscoots: “I get it now…Doc Holliday….is really just….Overlord in….disguise. The KJ stuff is a dead giveaway.”
Well, yeah — duh.
He was quite open about the name change for about a week or so last month (23-26). **Like here, for example.
Btw … what’s with … all the … ellipses? You look like you’re constantly out of breath, like the black kid on Malcolm in the Middle. You okay, sport? +++++++++++++++++++++
BravesFanInRockies —
Completely agree with you.
And let me add — it should be clear to everyone that TEX* himself is going to choose the team he plays for, not Boras.
Tex is paying Boras to negotiate with the team(s) that Tex decides he wants to play for.
And Boras is going to get him the best deal he can with a team Tex has identified — which is not necessarily limited to monetary considerations. Think duration, think no trade clause, think performance incentives, think options, think freebies (tix, etc), think obligations to the club (appearances, etc), etc, etc.
By BamaBrave
July 21, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this
“Better you than me, Frankie baby!!!! Better you than me…” - John Schuerholz
By David O'Brien
July 21, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this
sixfourthree, from you question at end of last blog: I’d probably go Full Metal Jacket as my favorite war movie (and that Eastwood one a few years back was great, the first of the two he did in succession).
As for Generation Kill, to me it’s a whole different thing that Band of Brothers. Not romanticized, just gritty, realistic, warts-and-all look at these guys, some who want to be there, others who don’t, etc. Love it. LOVE. IT. Great show.
By N8
July 21, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this
EXCELLENT Blog DOB
I don’t disagree with anything you said about Tex (Not that you give a NY Rat’s azz - LOVED that comment last week - about my approval of your opinion). You hit the nail right on the head. Well done.
By Tomahawk Kris
July 21, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this
It’s Tractor Pull time at The Ted!
By SeaFighter HSV
July 21, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this
Why not move Hudson too? We’re already punting this year and next. Who else has value? I’d move Soriano if there are any takers. Lock up Gonzo long-term.
By David O'Brien
July 21, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this
18 Wheels: That’s not accurate. I’ll leave it at that. His info might be a few weeks old.
By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2009)
July 21, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
The trade market for Teixeira is lukewarm at best. But, the health of Big Papi could change all that in an instant. For Atlanta to trade Tex before July 31st would amount to an admission that trading for him in the first place was a mistake.
Seventeen teams are still in playoff contention, the Atlanta Braves are not one of them. Watching the job performance of Bobby Cox is like seeing an old Circus bear performing the same tired tricks, somebody needs to put the ancient Dinosaur in a Museum where he belongs.
By Doc Holliday
July 21, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
Welcome on board Random …….. dont be afraid……disliking Cox is perfectly normal……..youll feel better now……take a sit and be ready to move up as we are expecting company.
By 18 Wheels of Love
July 21, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this
I am also totally enamored with Generation Kill. Awesome show. Definitely disturbing watching the storyline progress to when a bunch of these likable guys get killed. What’s even worse is that it is really happening and not much attention is being paid to it because ‘death toll is down’….whatevas.
By Anders
July 21, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this
Wow! DOB basically calling Tex a compiler. Man have the mighty fallen in Atlanta. Frenchy is being treated like a leper these days and now the skids are being greased to send Tex packing by DOB himself.
BTW- the Yanks have climbed right back into it and Big Papi has shown signs of life. Oh well, doesn’t sound like the sellers market Tex could have been thrown into a couple of weeks ago. The pipe dream of a possible playoff push might very well have cost the Braves an additional prospect in a deal to one of those teams panicking. Hey, but what do I know. Right DOB?
By Shaun
July 21, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this
A-Rod’s the highest paid player in the game, and many will tell you he’s the best player in the game. But he’s not the player I would build a team around if I could have any player. No way.
DOB, I think this is right because of A-Rod’s age and salary (although this doesn’t matter to the Yankees). His career clutch numbers are just fine, so I don’t think it’s about big hits or anything like that.
Same with Teixeira. Same with a lot of other high-paid players or players who can command a huge contract.
The system is such that by the time a player is eligible for free agency, he’s likely going to out-earn his production by a fairly significant margin.
But this is also a great equalizer for the most part because a lot of teams are going to make the mistake of signing a big name instead of signing a player based on the production he is likely to provide.
About the only teams for which this doesn’t apply are the Yankees and Red Sox (and maybe the Angels to a lesser degree). Those teams can afford to overpay for free agents because they can afford to cut them lose or bench them if the overpriced player becomes so unproductive that he shouldn’t be playing regularly.
If I’m a Yankee fan, I’m glad the Yankees got A-Rod. He does make them better. It’s blunders with signing older pitchers, ignoring the farm system, and injuries to younger pitchers that have caused any problems the Yankees have had; not A-Rod.
By Braves in the year 2020
July 21, 2008 3:08 PM | Link to this
Cox, K.J., J.F. and Blanco free. Times will be a lot better then.
By 18 Wheels of Love
July 21, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this
Thanks DOB…when I heard him say it it didn’t sound like he was believing what he was saying, or that he hadn’t been paying extremely close attention to the Braves. Yeah, probably old material…
By Frank
July 21, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this
I think what the Braves need to do is figure out if they are going to compete with the big boys(mets,cubs,sox) as far as payroll, or if they are going to be a small market club. If the Braves were owned by someone who actually had an interest in the teams performance maybe we would have an answer. Instead the past few years we are in a situation of letting quality players go(Mahey,Furcal,Millwood,Drew)who are vital to contenders because the Braves “can’t” afford them. Being a “mid-market team” creates situations like trading Wainwright to St. Louis for Drew(unable to resign) and all those prospects to Tex for Texiaria(looks like we won’t be able to re-sign him). If only Blank could have bought the team…
By McFann :Ô:
July 21, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this
Random Btw … what’s with … all the … ellipses?
I’ve been wondering that, too.
By Barrington Garland
July 21, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this
TOP 10 REASONS FOR BRAVES FAILURES THIS SEASON:
By bigchiefrg
July 21, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this
I sure am glad we let Freddi Gonzalez get away. Terry Pendleton will make a much better manager without a doubt and Bobby has managed circles around him thus far(thick sarcasm).
By JB
July 21, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this
Random.
Infante is hurt. How exactly do you suppose Bobby can go about playing him in place of Francoeur?
By ernesto
July 21, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this
Note to all “fire Bobby Cox” drum beaters.
We got it. You don’t like Bobby. He should be fired. He sucks. Worst manager ever. Overrated. Badly mismanages everything. Only won 1 WS ring. Holding the team back. Picks his nose.
Okay. Do you have anything else to say? It’s the same freakin’ post day in and day out.
Don’t you get tired of typing it?
By Shamus Thacker
July 21, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this
Highly informative blog DOB, fine fine job!
In the present economic climate/crisis, ANY team would be CRAZY to offer ANY player $12,000,000 per, let alone 22.
That’s not negativism, that’s reality.
By Shaun
July 21, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this
For Atlanta to trade Tex before July 31st would amount to an admission that trading for him in the first place was a mistake.
Coach, At this point, why is it much different if they trade him on July 21st or 31st?
By Random
July 21, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this
Glavine mentoring young lefty Reyes: “When Reyes takes the mound during Sunday afternoon’s series finale against the Nationals at Turner Field, he’ll be looking to utilize many of the tips he received while throwing Friday afternoon’s bullpen session with both Glavine and John Smoltz present.
“Once the session was complete, Smoltz, who underwent season-ending shoulder surgery in June, and Glavine walked through the stadium’s tunnel with Reyes, and before entering the clubhouse doors, they took time to demonstrate some of the mechanical suggestions they had made.”
DOB: “During his 0-5 skid over his past five starts, Jo-Jo Reyes has posteed a 7.65 ERA and .353 opponents’ average”
By BravesFanInRockies
July 21, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this
Frank,
Ownership has changed since Furcal, Millwood and Drew were around.
Failing to keep “Mahey” isn’t why this year’s edition seems stuck in neutral. And last I checked, Kansas City isn’t contending for anything.
By Pamela Y Jones
July 21, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this
Bobby Cox has managed with what little he had to work with this year and last year.
He has called up everyone except the bat boy and milk man to try to put something together.
The quality of players has to be a factor somewhere. with the injuries and DL stints it is a wonder we showed up to play at all.
If any of us on this blog can go out there and hit a fastball of 90-95 or change-ups, I’m sure he would give us a try too.
Every team in every city cannot be the number 1 team. We have had it made for so long I think it is more difficult and harder to take inside for Atlanta fans.
By Paddy McGillicutty
July 21, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this
It seems like the Braves are loaded with young talent but they are just HIGHLY inconsistent. And it seems like it’s never 3 or 4 guys hot to pick up the slack for the 3 or 4 cold. Instead they’re either all hot or all cold. I know we have a young team, but really how young are they? Francoeur is in his 3rd year, KJ is in his 3rd year as well, Diaz is his 3rd or 4th year, McCann, yes 3rd year, (not that he has been a problem area just saying). Those guys are all getting enough service time, seeing these NL East and other NL pitchers enough to gain some consistency instead of these wild fluctuations. Hell, someone needs to find a way to get through to these guys, take extra BP, watch more tape, tell them to relax more, whatever it takes because, if anything, it affects their arbitration negotiations and hits them probably where it hurts the most. I think we’ll all agree Francoeur has probably cost himself $3-5MM this year.
I’m not of the belief of being one of those “fire all the coaches” when something bad goes on. However, when our players fail to improve consistently year after year when most do, continue to have such drastic peaks and valleys, and call their daddy’s when they need some tips instead of going to the Hitting Coach (maybe because his approaches don’t work, hello!), maybe it is time for a change? I think it would be great to trade Tex for not just a huge power corner IF bat, but maybe for some prospects and a proven leadoff guy. Seems like the only ones getting on base consistently are the 3&4 guys which brings up 6,7, 8 in the lineup w/ people on base as opposed to Chipper, Tex, McCann coming up w/ the 1 & 2 on base. I think a Tex trade to LAA which I STILL say is highly unlikely has to include Chone Figgins. I would probably do Tex for Figgins and N. Adenhart and put Figgins in LF full-time. I think the Angels show you don’t necessarily need a lineup full of big boppers to get to the playoffs and compete there. You just need 1 or 2 capable of the home at any time and the ONLY thing this team lacks: CONSISTENCY!!!!!
By TheCutMan
July 21, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this
Let me start by saying that Mr. O’Brien’s comments from yesterday’s blog where he characterized Frank Wren as a ‘brother’ character in the Trading Places film from 1983 made me roll over with laughter. Too good, and it wasn’t lost on me.
I think those draft picks for Teix are probably the best move for the Braves for a couple of reasons. They most likely won’t get comparable return in a trade, (But, sometimes teams do get desperate), and at least Teix gives them some credibility with the home attendees and is there should they go on ‘THE RUN’ (Tyrone character in DC Cab…back at you).
By Crazy Stats Katz
July 21, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
The Braves are so full of it when they claim they don’t pay players big money. They have a track record through the years of paying Maddux, Glavine, Andruw, Chipper, Dale money back in the day that is equivalent to $30 million dollar contracts today when you consider a 10% annual baseball money inflation rate. Heck, in 2001, they even offered Arod the same exact contract that he signed last winter.
Dale Murphy - 7 years, $16 million from 1985 through 1992. The equivalent contract in the upcoming free agency market is 7 years, $221 million.
Greg Maddux - 5 years, $28 million in 1993. The equivalent contract in the upcoming free agency market is 5 years, $145 million.
Greg Maddux - 5 years, $57.5 million in 1998. The equivalent contract in the upcoming free agency market is 5 years, $174 million
Tom Glavine - 4 years, $34 million in 1997. The equivalent contract in the upcoming free agency market is 4 years, $116 million.
Chipper Jones - 6 years, $90 million in 2001. The equivalent contract in the upcoming free agency market is 6 years, $200 million. So spare me the nonsense that Tex shouldn’t be paid more than Chipper. Tex ain’t asking to be paid as well as Chipper was 8 years ago.
Chipper Jones - 8 years, $125 million in 2001 when you consider the the two $15 million option years in 2007 and 2008 and the $5 million dollar bonus if the 2007 and 2008 option years vested. The equivalent contract in the upcoming free agency market is 8 years, $277 million.
Andruw Jones - 6 years, $90 million in 2002. The equivalent contract in the upcoming free agency market is 6 years, $180 million.
Alex Rodriguez - 10 years, $126 million offered by the Braves in 2001. The equivalent contract in the upcoming free agency market is 10 years, $277 million. Isn’t that the contract he signed last winter?
Schuerholz and the Braves are so full of it. Boras is exactly right when he says Schuerholz has a short term memory with the way he selectively forgets how much he paid his stars in the past. Corporate ownership blows. They turned The Homeboy Upstairs into a delusional liar …. and a hypocrite.
Homeboy, when revenues increase in your sport, it’s only fair to give a corresponding increase in the share of those revenues through increased salaries to the players who make that money for you.
By Novice Ned
July 21, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this
Why is everyone yelling? Just because the Braves are making plans fall vacation plans, there is no need to scream and be rude. Geez!
By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2009)
July 21, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this
Contrary to popular belief, the Braves do have the Red Sox over a barrel. The Sox bullpen is suspect beyond Jonathan Papelbon and they know Will Ohman is available.
By Paddy McGillicutty
July 21, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this
Francoeur cost himself $3-5MM for the coming year I should say, 2009. I’m sure he will still be considered a Super Two if he puts up the numbers he has thus far.
By N8
July 21, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this
Why is everybody YELLING at each other on the blog.
Oh. Wait. The text is accidentally coming up bold.
Never mind.
By Random
July 21, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this
JB: “Infante is hurt. How exactly do you suppose Bobby can go about playing him in place of Francoeur?”
I said if Bobby Cox continues to field inferior players.
I know Infante’s out now, but he’s eligible to come back tomorrow, and will probably be activated then.
Anf then “if Bobby Cox continues to field inferior players”, etc, etc.
Kotsay could move to RF, Blanco and Infante CF/LF.
By rammerjammer
July 21, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this
DOB, thanks for an insightful article.
You know, I really wonder if Bobby Cox has had enough of it. I mean, this weekend was MUST WIN, and his guys lost two of three and looked really bad doing it. It must make him sick.
By ElbravoX-- EbX
July 21, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this
trade chipper!
By Gil in Mechanicsville
July 21, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this
At what point do you say it might be the hitting coach that is the problem? Looks like the Nats have straightened out Langerhans’ swing… No toe tap. upright stance, shortened stroke… DUH!!!
By Jimmie "BO" Horne
July 21, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this
Cox needs to be whipped like a stubborn mule and showed the door. I have to turn my head every time the camera zooms in on him. Can’t take it any more. Man oh man this team needs someone to inspire them.
By semiballcoach
July 21, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this
maybe the braves could put jo-jo in right and frenchy on the mound and improve both positions…
By N8
July 21, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this
Novice Ned
You beat me to it.
By Anders
July 21, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this
TheCutman
I think those draft picks for Teix are probably the best move for the Braves for a couple of reasons. They most likely won’t get comparable return in a trade,
Keep in mind draft picks (especially high ones like Tex would command) cost $’s in bonus money. If the Braves see a prospect or two they like who were already were paid their bonus money that might be more appealing to them than drafting new guys next year.
I’m sure that’s being explored by Wren and company too.
By Shaun
July 21, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this
I think the Angels show you don’t necessarily need a lineup full of big boppers to get to the playoffs and compete there. You just need 1 or 2 capable of the home[run] at any time and the ONLY thing this team lacks: CONSISTENCY!!!!!
Paddy McGillicutty, The Angels have the 4th best ERA and have allowed the 3rd fewest runs in the AL. Without that kind of pitching, they would certainly need better than an offense that ranks 10th in the league in runs.
And the only thing this team lacks is consistency? Did you see the stats DOB posted on the outfielders?
The primary reason the Braves are out of the race is the lack of offensive production from the outfield. If they had gotten any kind of decent production from the outfield, it’s hard to imagine that they would not be in the thick of things right now. It’s as simple as that.
By David O'Brien
July 21, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this
Braves are sending down Vlad Nunez to open spot for Soriano. I thought it might be Tavarez, but maybe his couple of scoreless innings granted him a reprieve. That plus they know he might decline the assignment, like he did with Milwaukee.
By NCBravesFan
July 21, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this
DOB Do you get any vibes that the Braves might consider doing something surprising between now and July 31st … say trade Hudson for instance? Would hate to lose a guy like him, but he would have a lot of trade value for one thing … and you could make the case that there should be few “untouchable” players on a team that has been .500 for the better part of three years now.
It seems like it would never happen, but you see teams like the Twins, Marlins and A’s trading some big name people away and rolling right along year after year.
By Knowitall
July 21, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this
Crazy Stats, did you just crawl from under a rock? The Braves have been through two ownership changes since those contracts that you are citing were given out. Everyone knows that money was not a problem in the 90’s. But guess what, TED TURNER DOES NOT OWN THE BRAVES ANYMORE!
By Hoosier Aaron
July 21, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this
In order for the Braves to get the two draft picks everyone keeps talking about - the Braves must be willing to offer Tex arbitration. I doubt he would accept - but we thought that a few years ago - and got hung. You have to believe the Rays are interested - this is their chance. The Yanks and Red Sox don’t want to miss the playoffs and let the Rays in. The White Sox see the Twins AND Tigers in the mirror. Hang in there - the phone will ring off the hook next week…we’ll get more than a bucket of balls for Tex.
One more thing - I have to agree with someone in regards to Corky Miller..what is up with that?
By Random
July 21, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this
ernesto: “Note to all “fire Bobby Cox” drum beaters… . We got it. You don’t like Bobby. He should be fired. He sucks. Worst manager ever. Overrated. Badly mismanages everything. Only won 1 WS ring. Holding the team back. Picks his nose… . Okay. Do you have anything else to say? It’s the same freakin’ post day in and day out… . Don’t you get tired of typing it?”
Don’t you be puttin’ words in my mouth. Every bold word up above is yours, not mine.
If you want to defend Cox, why don’t you specifically address his handling of the bullpen and his not fielding his best players?
By rainman
July 21, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this
ok heres my trade. trade tex to the rays for pena, gomes and a low level player with promiss. this gives us a first basemen with pop and a great glove for a couple more years a low risk of with a ton of power and gives the rays a huge bat to make a run which if you know anyone for tampa they would love to see their team do something like this. plus to make it work braves would have to pay difference in pay.
By AZBravoFan
July 21, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this
That was a pretty disheartening weekend. I think what bothered me most was the team seemed to be playing better coming into the break, then had some time to rest and come out fresh in the second half against a horrible team. But what I saw was a team that looked completely rusty and unprepared. None of the 3 starting pitchers had any kind of command, including Mr. Hudson who just got lucky with some run support. Did they even pick up a ball over the break? Toss a couple off the mound? Sure didn’t look like it. And the offense seemed to pick up right where they left off. Squandered chance after squandered chance. I do feel bad for the starters. Especially the young guys. They know they have to be perfect with every pitch or they’re gonna lose 1-0. So rather than relaxing and trusting their stuff, they’re walking guys, hanging ill-advised breaking balls. And then when they seem to get it right and get some balls hit at people, the defense lets them down, Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz never once had to worry about their defense bungling it for them. Wonder if Glav. mentioned that in his little session with Jo-Jo. If these guys actually had some early leads to work with once in a while, they could throw strikes and be a little less fine, and probably a lot more successful. Just look at Odalis yesterday. That guy had nothing, but because he was ahead by so much, all he had to do was keep firing it in there (didn’t always do that either) and let the Bravos get themselves out. Betcha Jo-Jo could have slogged through 5 innings if he had a 10 run lead.
By fleming
July 21, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this
One more fallacy to dispel. I totally agree that Corky Miller doesn’t deserve to major league job by his stats, but that said- the braves record when Miller starts is 8-7. Yes that’s right. The Braves actually are above 500 when he starts and below 500 with McCann. Just wanted to point that out.
By Shaun
July 21, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this
At what point do you say it might be the hitting coach that is the problem? Looks like the Nats have straightened out Langerhans’ swing… No toe tap. upright stance, shortened stroke… DUH!!!
Gil, yeah, the Nats hitting coach is doing a fantastic job: 15th in runs, 16th in AVG, 15th in OBP, 16th in SLG. He’s great…DUH!!!
And Langerhans is slugging .356…just what you want from a corner outfielder.
By Doc Holliday
July 21, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this
Move Hudson??? we are still reinventing our rotation my man. 2nd comment I agree……….3rd comment…………..PLEASE LEARN SOMETHING OUT OF THIS SEASON……….Are you insane? Lock up long term a guy that just came off 1 year rehab? Give him 1 a 1 year extension and go from there.
*Barrington Garland *
Cheers, I agree on everything, except the numbers of HOF………it aint 3. Im not sure who are you counting but Id count Glavine, Smoltz, Maddux, Chipper, AJ played like one for 10 years and you might wanna add Hudson. So that doubles your total of HOF.
By brent a.
July 21, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this
Y’know, I’m really dreading listening to the radio, and hearing Pete Van Wieren mention the Braves as “having a chance to play the spoiler role”, almost gleefully, as if it’s something to get excited about.
This could well be our last week to even fathom the thought of being contenders.
By N8
July 21, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this
* Crazy Stats Katz*
For one. Of ALL of those guys mentioned, only Maddux was offered that contract as a player from another team (of the guys they signed), everybody else was being offered those numbers as “extensions”.
You know, rewarding guys that came up through the system and helped the Braves get to where they’re at (or where they WERE). Big difference in paying your own guys deserved money, compared to offering other teams’ free agents big dollars to jump ship.
As for A-Rod? The dude was THE prize of the 2001 off-season, and the money we offered him would have been a STEAL had he accepted it.
Also, I’m gonna call BS on the “converted” values of those contract numbers. NOT because you’re not correct in calculating the conversion rates and inflation and whatnot. But because THOSE contracts were given to players while Ted Turner owned the team and salary issues were NON existent.
The only way that those conversions are relevant, is if the Braves would “cap out” their team salary at the same rate. In other words, if LM were to allow a 200 million dollar payroll, then your numbers apply.
But dollars are dollars. When Chipper was given his 8 year 125 million dollar deal, that you claim is “worth” 8 years and 277 million, you have to realize that even with inflation and current market value, the Braves payroll REMAINS around 100 million.
So your comparison is a moot point.
By brent a.
July 21, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this
So, what could we expect Tex to get in arbitration?
That aside, I think the reason we “got hung” a few years back, is that you had Greg Maddux, (sort of) nearing the end of his career. This is Tex in his prime. Personally, I don’t see how waiting 1 year helps Tex get a bigger deal. Therefore, I’d expect him to decline arbitration.
OTOH, I’m sure Greg Maddux really enjoyed that huge payday he received in 2003.
By ernesto
July 21, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this
Random - Wasn’t addressing one person in particular, but I’ve yet to read a fire BC screed that isn’t soley based off something on that list.
If you don’t have a new take on it, why keep saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over again.
I find the logic a little mystefying.
But, hey, it keeps angry people at home typing and off the streets, so I guess it’s not all bad.
ps. yours falls under “Badly mismanages everything” - in this case player selection and bullpen..with maybe a little “holding the team back” as a garnish
By Sixth Grade English Teacher
July 21, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this
**Many of the fine denizens on the blog are currently misusing a phrase. When calling another blogger an idiot, they following is not correct:
” Your and Idiot” this speaks of possessive form and should not be utilized and the d should not be on an.
It should be:
“You are an idiot” or “You’re an idiot”
Eg: “If you think Bobby Cox is still a competent and effective big league manager then you are an idiot” **
By DesiBrave
July 21, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this
DOB,
In an recent interview Glavine said JoJo seemed to be better than himself and Smoltz when they were his age. He has quality stuff but doesn’t know when to use his pitches in what situations. Having said that Glavine also said that he didn’t figure that out till his first Cy Young season. So Jo Jo under the tutelage of Glavine could turn into a future Glavine.
So here is a Nostradamus Prophecy :)
with able support from Campillo for a few years I think we will have a pitching that could look like 1991 to 2003.
We may have to wait until 2011 for that to happen. Well who knows by then Liberty will sell Braves to someone like a TED with unlimited cap on the payroll and we repeat 1991 - 2003 in 2011 - 2023 ( I wish that streak wont end in 2023)
By N8
July 21, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
Sixth Grade English Teacher
Try and keep up. If not, go away.
You sir, are AND idiot.
By Cecil34
July 21, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this
Whatever Tex winds up with for a contract in the future, he will be overpaid. I agree totally with DOB concerning his take on Tex.
Tex inspires no one in the clubhouse, he is not a leader and if anything, personifies the mercenary mentality that pervades MLB now thanks to a Mr. Curt Flood and free agency.
As DOB stated, Tex can put up some sweet stats, but they ring hollow when his team is 6 games under .500.
Not that Tex isn’t a nice guy, and a darn good ballplayer, but one man just doesn’t make the difference when the team is insufficient in several positions. Heck, I really wonder if any player is worth 20 million a year on a team, period. Therefore, common sense says it really doesn’t make good sense to pay him or anyone else 20 million a year.
Marketing on the major league level plays a huge role in creating the perception of competitiveness where there may be little or none. Due to the fact that MLB is a business and selling tickets and generating sponsor dollars is the name of the game, there may be a lot of smoke and mirrors employed to keep the $$ rolling in.
Admitting defeat is a little hard to do in the business of pro sports due to the fact that this admittance costs the team revenue. And you are doggone sure the teams don’t want to do it too early, even when it is apparent to everyone outside the organization.
Therefore some teams will make moves to make it appear they are trying to win now, not re-build, even though they know full well they need to do the latter to truly become competitive.
What does this mean?
It gives players like Tex more perceived value than he actually generates.
Why?
Because free-agency is the nail in the baseball coffin. Free agency has put the power in the hands of the players; it gives them leverage and has made the individual more important than the team. Baseball is a team sport. Free agency has driven up the salaries to ungodly levels. Front offices have been coerced into believing that they must pay these salaries to be competitive. That expense has been passed on the fans of MLB. The teams will sacrifice to afford one player. Or maybe a few players. It creates a revolving door of rosters yearly. Team continuity suffers. Management drifts from one strategy to the next because they cannot keep up with the constant player turnover.
The bottom line is we don’t need Tex. We don’t need to engage in any more rent-a-player transactions when we have much more than one position that needs addressing. The Tex deal is the textbook example of replacing the flat tire when the engine was blown. Braves Management knew it and prayed it would not become so obvious. That things would miraculously hold together. That a 14 year string of playoff participation would be enough.
Welcome to baseball 2008.
By brent a.
July 21, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this
Crazy Stats Kat
Here’s what I would like you to do (if you have the time).
Instead of simply inflating the contracts of those players by 10% per annum, compunded, please actually look at their numbers, and see what they would be getting paid on the open market today, based upon their WAR (or whatever it is you were using last week).
It would be interesting to see if your inflation numbers hold up.
Thanks,
brent a.
By Original Jon
July 21, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
Hey Sixth Grade English Teacher It’s an inside joke man, you don’t get it.
By bravos2249
July 21, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this
JS isn’t the GM anymore though….it’s a whole new GM Boras would have to talk to…..
I’m not questioning Wren as a GM but 2 trades he made are sort of questionable.
I know you get players and etc. based on who you know,how you know them, and for how long, but the Renteria for Jair/Gorys had a BUNCH of connections…Wren worked w/ Dombrowski in FL when Edgar played there, so was it a SMART move on Wren’s part or an EASY one.
Also Kotsay was on the same FL team.
Coincidence, I think not.
By lewie
July 21, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this
DOB
is there any chance of us getting loney from LA? if not, how could we get kotch + fuggin figgins?
i’d love to get figgins and kotch, i just don’t know how we could swing that if we couldn’t even get someone like loney + prospect or so
and the dude with the TB trade, i’m not so sure that they’d be willing to pull the trigger on something like that being as they have as much of a chance on resigning Tex as we do….that’s an lot to give up for the last part of the season
By monty
July 21, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this
No one has yet to tell me why Tex would be willing to for-go millions to stay in Atlanta? Still Waiting….
By Hoosier Aaron
July 21, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this
I would expect Tex to get a huge one-year contract. Does that help us? How?
Guessing on Maddux - cost us a solid starter as a result.
What did we get for Andruw Jones? Why?
In this day of huge contracts where the market for salaries like Boras is asking for Tex is VERY small you can’t “expect him to decline arbitration”. If you want to pay him - then do it…if not getting NOTHING is not an option…especially when you consider his price tag this time last year.
By nate
July 21, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this
I don’t think trading Tex now makes the trade to get him a year a ago a mistake.
The Braves added Tex for two playoff runs. Neither happened, but that’s doesn’t make it a bad decision. It was a gamble. A calculated risk.
The Rangers took on risk too. They took on the risk that the players they got back would never turn into impact players.
As of today, the trade looks like a draw. Neither team got the better of the other. The Braves didn’t make the playoffs either year, but that’s not because Tex didn’t play as advertised. The players the Braves sent to the Rangers on the other hand have struggled. It does not appear that any of those prospects is going to bloom into stars.
By beekay
July 21, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this
Draft picks might not be best solution. No guarantee we will sign them and they cost a boat load up front in signing bonus(some are stretched out over time) Anders has a point, why not go after someone young who has that bonus already paid for. Throw in Ohman and I think we can get 3-4 decent prospects, hopefully one that can contribute immediately at 1st base.
By knowitall
July 21, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this
Why are some calling for the trade of Hudson????? I don’t understand this. Who anchors the rotation for the rest of this year and next year for that matter. I think some of you get a little too caught up into getting prospects for the future. The Braves have no reason to trade Hudson. He’s an ace and he’s cheap by today’s standards. Why on earth would you trade him?
I don’t know why you all go through the trouble of suggesting the Braves trade for young talent because if you were running the team, you’d just trade them after a couple of years in the majors.
By NCBravesFan
July 21, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this
Doc Holliday I think you can make at least some argument for trading Hudson - if not now, then after the season is over. Say Tex is not traded and then leaves after the season ends - you get two compensatory picks and that’s it.
So you’re left with a team that has holes in the OF and at 1B, plus a bevy of young, but talented pitchers. Outside of OUR prospects, who besides Huddy is tradeable at this point - at least for something that would shore up the offense and give the team a chance to compete in 2010 or 2011.
I’m not saying it will happen or that it necessarily should happen - but you can make a case for dealing Huddy this year to set yourself up down the line.
By skip
July 21, 2008 4:27 PM | Link to this
DOB- Thanks for the Tavarez update. As a Red Sox fan I became a big fan of his, if he used right I believe he can be a help to this team, plus he can be really entertaining to watch :)
By ncscoots
July 21, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this
I’ve been wondering that, too.
McFann, I answered that on the last blog, which is where that whole Random sequence should have stayed. Only that sad sack would think such witticism deserved re-posting.
You’re young, so, were I you, I’d try to avoid perusing posts from the likes of Random and Doc (who appear to be the nitwit brothers of different mothers). Liable to stunt your growth, otherwise.
By BravesFanInRockies
July 21, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this
If it comes down to it, the Braves would offer Tex arbitration and if he can’t find a long-term deal with another club they’d probably accept paying him for one more season, even if if is at a rate of $18-20 million.
Frankly, I think he will find an acceptable long-term deal with another club. Even if he doesn’t, I don’t think that, in an emergency, Liberty will put Wren on the same fiscal diet that Homeboy had to live with.
By Original Jon
July 21, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this
Actually DesiBrave Campillo has been called a Mexican Greg Maddux. So there’s your three.
By bravos2249
July 21, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this
knowitall
Some people don’t want to give Tex $ 20 million but they think we can sign CC or Sheets for scraps.
That’s why the whole Hudson thing.
By Bobby's Cox
July 21, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
Nice blog. Gutsy, full of opinion. Well done DOB.
About TEX:
DOB’s right. No sign and trade. If you’ve looked at the available 1B free agents in the offseason, there’s absolutely no one available besides Tex. This is how Boras will get Tex more money than he’s ever dreamed. The stars are aligned if your Tex and Boras.
There’s no way the Angels trade Kotchman &/or Figgins with the season they’re having either, unless a sign & trade takes place.
The best option would be for Loney and a few prospects out of LA. The dodgers, like the Braves, have a lot of money freeing up this offseason, and even more after ‘09 when Andruw’s salary is off the books. The dodgers will be able to outbid everyone. I wouldn’t mind Loney in a braves uni. The dodgers also have a lot of good pitching prospects (outside of untradeable Kershaw).
By rupert
July 21, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this
i miss ted turner and his money…
By AZ Braves Fan
July 21, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this
AZBravoFan Are you planning on going to any of the games when the Braves are out here? I’m out in Gilbert. How ‘bout you?
By StingerSplash
July 21, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this
So much for a weekend of splashing in the surf, gorging on Lowcountry boil and buckets of various Sweetwater Brewery products instead of watching the wheels, axle, drive train and other engine parts come off during the wretched weekend with Washington. Twenty-nine runs in three games against a team with one (one!) guy hitting above .233 in the lineup Friday night? Offense ain’t the only problem, but it’s a doozy. The San Diego series was the end of the beginning. The Washington series was the beginning of the end.
By rammerjammer
July 21, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this
No team is going to trade for 60 games of Tex, and no team is going to get Tex to sign a new contract before he becomes a free agent. So, enough of the idiotic trade ideas. Face it, he’s ours for the rest of the year.
His greatest value now would be in what we could get in return, but that boat ain’t sailing.
Excuse me…isn’t.
By bravos2249
July 21, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this
The Royals are actively shopping catcher Miguel Olivo*
He’s not an OF but a valuable RH backup catcher…he’s making 2.05 mill this year and 2.7 next year….100 G buyout
.255 9 hr 29 rbi 15 doubles
his CS% is .474 Corky’s is .500
I’d consider Olivo esp. since Corky will be arbitration eligible…and can’t hit
By Anders
July 21, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this
Monty
No one has yet to tell me why Tex would be willing to for-go millions to stay in Atlanta? Still Waiting….
Don’t feel bad, Chipper will be asking this same questions about himself for the next few years while Glavine counts the huge payout he got from the Mets and Tex collects twice what Chipper ever got.
Seemed like the right thing to do until you realize everyone else is leaving town to get theirs. I mean even AJ is making $18 mil per!
By McFann :Ô:
July 21, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this
Fleming—
Yes, it’s true the Braves have a losing record when McCann starts. When the team has a losing record, that happens. (They’re right at .500 when Chipper starts.)
However, in 2006, when McCann started, the Braves were 62-56, and their record for the year was 79-83.
But this year, since McCann has started so many games, with the team’s record being under .500 for the year, odds are it would be that way when McCann starts.
And let’s face it, I mean, McCann’s batting .246 with 18 RBI in losses…But that’s usually why a team loses, because the “Big Guns”, so to speak, aren’t doing their job. (Chipper’s batting .277 with 16 RBI in losses.)
That said—are you suggesting they play Corky more? I sure hope not…
ncscoots—
I’ll keep that in mind. ; >
By Alan
July 21, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this
Monty, Tex will not be willing to forego millions to stay in Atlanta. He’s as good as gone — to either NY team or either LA team. If I were the Braves, I’d trade him before the deadline, but problem is all they’ll get will be 2 or 3 prospects — far less (in quantity and quality) than what they traded away to get him a year ago. However, due to hubris or stupidity (or both), the Braves are not likely to concede defeat and trade Teixeira this month — unless they get swept by both the Marlins and the Phillies — and even in that case I wouldn’t bet on it. They’ll say they’re in the race as long as they’re mathematically in the race. Even when, like now, they’re really hopelessly, helplessly and completely out of it. It’s ove