AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2007 > December > 21 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USSelig step down? Forget about it
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Those of you who really believed (or just hoped) that fallout from the Mitchell Report might bring down Bud Selig, forget about it. As we’ve said all along, the only ones who can fire Bud are baseball owners, and they sing his praises.
Still. In fact, perhaps more than ever.
Since the report placed blame for rampant ‘roid use on just about everyone in baseball, including MLB officials, it seems like owners have been even more openly supportive of Selig than before.
And why not? As we said here last week, when one of our regulars on the blog suggested that Selig and Don Fehr be fired, there’s no way Selig and Fehr get fired when attendance is at an all-time high and teams and players are splitting a bigger financial pie than ever.
And now we’re hearing exactly that. Selig made more than $14 million last year, and baseball owners make it sound like he’s worth every penny of it - steroid scandal be damned.
“He has total support of the ownership — total support,” Chicago White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf told the Associated Press.
“He’s a terrific commissioner, and he’s doing the right thing in trying to clean up the sport,” Yankees owner George Steinbrenner told AP, through a spokesman. “I am fully supporting him.”
So unless you folks think Congress is going to step in and somehow try to hold baseball officials and Fehr accountable for the performance-enhancing drug mess — good luck with that one — then it’s probably a waste of time to keep suggesting that Selig must go.
Because he ain’t going anywhere. At least not for a couple more years. That’s when the 73-year-old former Brewers owner and one-time car salesman has indicated he plans to step down as commissioner.
But some owners have expressed hopes of talking him into staying on the job longer.
Money talks, folks. Packed stadiums, wider revenue sharing among teams, and huge revenue increases in broadcasting deals and international marketing have lined baseball’s coffers. A steroid scandal doesn’t seem to have dented the bottom line, at least not yet.
Speaking of obscene cash…. Carlos Silva got even more from Seattle than originally rumored. After posting a 24-29 record and 5.01 ERA during the past two seasons with Minnesota, Silva signed a four-year, $48 million contract with the Mariners.
Yes, $12 mill annually for the next four seasons for a guy with a 55-46 career record and 4.31 ERA, with strikeout totals of 76, 71, 70 and 89 over the past four seasons. He’ll be 29 in April.
For some comparison and to get some idea of how the market price of pitching continues to soar, consider the contract four-year, $48 mill extension that Tim Hudson signed not even three years ago after being traded to the Braves.
Admittedly it was below-market value, but still, just consider the details:
Hudson was 29 when he signed the extension in March 2005, an extension that didn’t even kick in until 2006, after Hudson pitched for just $6.75 mill in 2005 in the final year of the previous contract he’d signed with Oakland.
Silva has only once in four seasons as a starter posted a .500-or-better record with double-digit wins, while Hudson had the second-highest winning percentage among active pitchers (behind Pedro Martinez) when Hudson signed his extension with the Braves, a deal that included a fifth-year club option for 2010.
Hudson had been the winningest pitcher in the AL over the previous five seasons. Silva is 47-45 in four seasons as a starter.
Before the extension, these were Hudson’s previous five seasons with Oakland: 20-6, 4.14 ERA in 2000; 18-9, 3.37 ERA in ‘01; 15-9, 2.98 ERA in ‘02; 16-7, 2.70 ERA in ‘03; 12-6, 3.53 ERA in ‘04. He pitched over 200 innings in four of those five, including seasons of 235, 238 and 240 innings.
By the way, the Twins made a three-year, $18 million offer to Silva, who apparently decided that $30 million for one more year’s work was a more desirable proposal.
Oh, and there’s this: Jarrod Washburn signed a four-year, $37 mill free-agent contract with Seattle two years ago, after going 29-31 in the previous three seasons for the Angels. Washburn is 18-29 with a 4.33 ERA in two seasons for Seattle.
Supply and demand: Many good-not-great starting pitchers and middle relievers are pulling in relatively huge contracts for a simple reason: There are so few of them available, and so many teams in need of their services.
It’s why teams such as Oakland and Baltimore are willing to trade top young starters just entering their prime, because they can get so much in return for a Dan Haren or Erik Bedard that the potential immediate hit to their team’s performance is outweighed by the strength the organization can add at various positions by bringing back multi-player packages of young talent in return.
Yes, I had it confirmed to me that FoxSports.com’s report about the Braves being a late entry into the Haren sweepstakes was correct. The person told me he had only one problem with the story: It said the Braves couldn’t have matched Arizona’s package of six young players it sent to the A’s for Haren.
The Braves could have matched it, they just weren’t willing to give up such a huge chunk of young talent. They were willing to offer a package that included three prospects who were better overall than the first three in the Arizona package (the Diamondbacks gave up their Nos. 1, 3, 7 and 8 prospects, according to Baseball America rankings, along with two decent 24-year-old lefties.
The Braves weren’t going to give up more than three prospects to get Haren, though they do love his talent and his affordable contract over the next few years, just like everyone else does.
The Diamondbacks gave up a pair of advanced, good-hitting outfield prospects, 22-year-old Carlos Gonzalez and 21-year-old Aaron Cunningham, along with 21-year-old lefty Brett Anderson, who had 125 Ks and 25 walks in 120 innings last year in A-ball. Scouts say his “ceiling” is enormous.
A comparable two-outfielder, top-pitcher package from the Braves might have included power-hitting Jason Heyward and one of the two young center fielders, Jordan Schafer and Gorkys Hernandez, plus lefty Cole Rohrbough, who had 96 strikeouts with 20 walks in 61 innings in rookie and A-ball last season.
But then the Braves would’ve needed to come up with three more young players, including at least one more serious prospect. OF Brandon Jones? Or SS Brent Lillibridge, perhaps? Figure on one of those guys, and then come up with two more pitchers, not necessarily top prospects but guys with legit chances to pitch in the majors as soon as this season, like the two 24-year-old lefties at the back of the Arizona deal.
That’s what it would’ve taken, and the Braves could have had Haren. There’s a good chance Haren would win 14-15 games a season, at least, since he’s won 14, 14 and 15 in the past three seasons.
He was 43-34 in that span, with impressive ERAs of 3.58, 3.72 and 3.32 and strikeout totals of 163 in 217 innings, 176 in 223 innings and 192 in 222-2/3 innings. Dude is a stud, no doubt.
But the Braves are counting on at least two from the group of Schafer, Heyward, and B. Jones being long-term lineup regulars for them. They believe Schafer is going to be a star — comparable to Grady Sizemore, and some believe potentially even better than him.
And when you throw in the pitchers they’d have had to give up in the deal, the Braves just didn’t see the sense in mortgaging so much of the future for a young pitcher who - let’s keep things in perspective here - still hasn’t won more than 15 games and will be a free agent after the 2010 season.
Money absolutely was not an object here. The Braves payroll is at about $89-90 million right now, and they could easily have absorbed his very reasonable salaries of $4 million in 2008, $5.5 in 2009, and $6.75 in a 2010 option year.
But then he’d be a free agent and, if he keeps improving, he’ll probably be a $20 mill-a-year pitcher by then. So he’ll be gone to the Yankes or someone else, and the Braves might have gotten 45-55 wins from him in three years and given up a very big chunk of anticipated production from the six or so youngsters they’d have had to give up to get him.
By the way, I haven’t heard if the Braves are involved in the Bedard talks with Baltimore, but I doubt it because the arbitration-eligible lefty will be a free agent after the 2009 season and the Orioles can orchestrate a bidding war for his services and command two or three major-league ready players in return.
Among teams known to have expressed interest in him this winter: Mets, Dodgers, Yankees, Mariners, Reds, Angels.
Bedard, who’ll be 29 in March, was 13-5 with a career-best 2.71 ERA and franchise-record 221 strikeouts in 182 innings in 2007.
Baltimore earlier this winter reportedly rejected the Mets’ offer of 21-year-old outfield prospect Carlos Gomez, reliever Aaron Heilman and another player, rumored to be starting pitcher Philip Humber.
Out of options: Going into spring training, there always seems to be a Braves player or two for whom the minor-league options situation forces the team to either keep him on the 25-man roster or trade him. But this time there could be more than usual.
Among those out of options and not assured a roster spot: relievers Royce Ring and Blaine Boyer, catcher/utility man Brayan Pena, and infielder Willie Aybar.
All of them have enough value to make it likely they would be scooped off waivers by another team if the Braves tried to get them through. So it’s reasonable to expect some or most of them to be traded between now and the end of spring training if the Braves don’t anticipate keeping them on the 25-man.
Cox to be honored: Braves manager Bobby Cox, Hall of Famer Tony Gwynn, Braves chairman emeritus Bill Bartholomay, and former Dodgers scout Ralph Avila are among those who’ll be honored for lifetime achievement by the Professional Baseball Scouts Foundation at its annual gala Jan. 19 at the Hyatt Regency Century Plaza Hotel in Los Angeles.
What’s being billed as the world’s largest baseball memorabilia auction will be held in conjunction with the dinner. The annual charity event helped raise more than $1 million over the past four years to assist baseball scouts in need.
If any of you Braves/Man in Black denizens happen to live or plan to visit L.A. around that time, and want to go to this thing, a limited number of tickets are available for purchase by calling (310) 996-1188.
Just thinking out loud…. Anyone seen the latest Michael Jackson-in-public photo? He has on some kind of cape or hood (nothing unusual for him these days) and also has these pieces of something, looks like tape squares or something like that, all over his face around his lips and nose and cheeks. Can he possibly get any weirder? Seriously, is it possible?
Most teen-agers today only know him as a freak show. Hard to imagine that twenty years ago, he was widely regarded as the greatest entertainer in the world, with massive popularity that transcended musical genres and stretched across races, nationalities and generations.
Speaking of music (but the good kind)…. Without further ado, here are the final 25 CDs on my top 50 favorites of 2007. I’ll list the first 25 below this group, topped by Arcade Fire, which ranked No. 1 for me this season, and also happens to be first alphabetically.
I didn’t rank the rest (Nos. 2-49), and to be honest, a few of these second 25 (including Graham Parker and Lucinda Williams) should’ve been in my first 25, but I sort of forgot they were released this year and not in late-2006.)
One other caveat: I’ve only ranked CDs that I own, not stuff I just heard or read was great. And I’m not on any mailing lists, so I buy everything, just like most of you have to. Also, I’m a dinosaur, so I don’t download albums or singles, I buy the CDs.
And finally, there’s a few that probably belong on here that I simply haven’t bought yet, such as Kanye West, Jay-Z, and LCD Soundsystem. Though I love Rilo Kiley’s older stuff, I heard this year’s release was too slickly produced and not like their other stuff, so I didn’t buy it. Maybe when I find a used copy at Ella Guru, I’ll get it. And I know White Stripes probably belongs on this list, but for whatever reason I haven’t bought it yet. Couple of songs I’ve heard from it annoy me. I like all their earliest stuff much more. Also, I don’t have Panda Bear’s CD, and I’ve seen it on a bunch of lists in hipster magazines and such. But the name sounds silly (then again, so does “Modest Mouse” — this CD wasn’t one of Modest Mouse’s best, by the way).
OK, here goes:
Ryan Adams Easy Tiger
Black Lips Good Bad Not Evil
Steve Earle Washington Street Serenade
Black Francis Blue Finger
Patty Griffin Children Running Through
Albert Hammond Jr. Yours to Keep
Richard Hawley Lady’s Bridge
Levon Helm Dirt Farmer
Joe Henry Civilians
Interpol Our Love to Admire
Iron & Wine Shepherd’s Dog
Sharon Jones & the Dap-Kings 100 Days/100 Nights
Miranda Lambert Crazy Ex-Girlfriend
Ted Leo & The Pharmacists Living with the Living
Modest Mouse We Were Dead Before the Ship Even Sank
Thurston Moore Trees Outside the Academy
Graham Parsons Live at the Avalon Ballroom 1969
Graham Parker Don’t Tell Columbus
Peter Bjorn & John Writer’s Block
Queens of the Stone Age Era Vulgaris
The Swell Season Once soundtrack
Teddy Thompson Upfront and Down Low
Wilco Sky Blue Sky
Lucinda Williams West
Neil Young Chrome Dreams II
And here’s a recap of the first 25 (I’d have put Spoon second, but didn’t rank any of them after No. 1.)
Arcade Fire Neon Bible, Arctic Monkeys Favorite Worst Nightmare, Band of Horses Cease to Begin, Bright Eyes Cassadaga, Dinosaur Jr. Beyond, El-P I’ll Sleep When You’re Dead, Feist The Reminder, Ghostface Killah The Big Doe Rehab.
Grinderman Grinderman, Jason Isbell Sirens in the Ditch, Kings of Leon Because of the Times, Waylon Jennings Nashville Rebel box set, M.I.A. Kala, The National Boxer, Okkervil River The Stage Names, Radiohead In Rainbows, Josh Ritter The Historical Conquests of Josh Ritter, Son Volt The Chase.
Spoon Ga Ga Ga Ga Ga, Bruce Springsteen Magic, James Blood Ulmer Bad Blood in the City, Various artists I’m Not There soundtrack, Dale Watson From the Cradle to the Grave, Amy Winehouse Back to Black, Dwight Yoakam Dwight Sings Buck.
One last thing: Merry Christmas to you folks, and thanks for making it a great year on the blog.
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Comments
Commenting is now closed for this entry.
By JR Bob Dobbs
December 21, 2007 8:36 PM | Link to this
Yes, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to DOB and all the crew here, and go Braves in ‘08 and beyond!
By McFann
December 21, 2007 8:41 PM | Link to this
First?
Hey, DOB, thank you so much for saying Merry Christmas!! Seriously, I’m getting tired of all the stupid “Happy Holiday” junk.
Lew, I finally got back to you on the portrait. Thanks again. Merry Christmas to ya.
Braveheart, as soon as you return (unless it’s too long after 9 o’clock) I’ve got some unfinished business to straighten out with you, buddy!!
By McFann
December 21, 2007 9:07 PM | Link to this
Uh…is this thing working?
By cricket
December 21, 2007 9:55 PM | Link to this
Wow! Glavin’s deal is looking better and better everyday. BTW, I just saw Charlie Wilson’s War - loved it, will recommend it very highly. Absolutely great adult entertainment.
By Lew
December 21, 2007 10:02 PM | Link to this
TenPaul-From the other blog. No, Haren would not just have been adding payroll. He would also have been an unacceptable depletion of our farm system for a lot less return than many seem to think he would have brought. I don’t think you realize how well thought of many of our up and coming players are thought of, or just how much they will be helping us in the not too distant future.
Depth chart? Dude, you can’t figure out a loose approximation on your own from everything we’ve observed and heard from sources like DOB? I think the major question marks are what the end of the rotation will look like and the final configuration of the bullpen. However, we already pretty well know (at least to this point) who the potential players will be. Same goes for center field. Or, did you consider no one has definitively told you what the depth chart may be because there is the possibility of more deals on the horizon? Or that no one will know for sure until the Spring Training competition starts? Do you ever play poker? Do you tell others what your cards are? Why should Wren let the rest of baseball know he’s dying for another pitcher or center fielder? What do you think that kind of urgency might do to the price tag? Do you recall John Schuerholz doing that?
Now you seem to wonder why I keep bringing up the money. Dude, whether or not you are aware of it, it’s you who are obsessing over the payroll. Almost every single post you make on the subject reveals how upset you are that Millions have yet to be spent. You, more than any other person posting on the blog has made the payroll a major issue time and again. Maybe you’re not aware of it, but that’s how you’re coming across.
Now quite honestly, you cite Davies as an example of the uselessness of projecting talent. How about all of the success stories? Atlanta, above any other team in all of ML Baseball can actually field (most years) an entire team that came up through their own farm system. It has been this way for years. I don’t know about you, but I’m quite willing to believe that this trend will continue for years to come. Seems other teams are quite happy to relieve us of our players all the time, as well.
By Stinky
December 21, 2007 10:02 PM | Link to this
Yawn.
By Gil in Mechanicsville
December 21, 2007 10:14 PM | Link to this
DOB I would post my top 25 but I don’t think the CDs I buy at the Goodwill are new releases.
All I have to say is those fellows on the bubble better come to camp in shape.
At the rate salaries are escalating, Tex is going to cost more than A-Rod.
By Jared
December 21, 2007 10:20 PM | Link to this
The Braves should have given the A’s that additional talent to obtain Haren. If they’re as interested in building an elite staff as they say they are, one more good prospect plus a couple of fillers shouldn’t have stopped them.
The Braves rotation looks good right now, but not elite. And if Smoltz goes does or Hudson reverts to 2006 form, it’s a train wreck. Haren…or now Bedard or Blanton would sure be nice.
By David-ATL14
December 21, 2007 10:25 PM | Link to this
Solid blog DOB.
A Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all the denizens that make this blog a very enjoyable place to gather.
By Gil in Mechanicsville
December 21, 2007 10:35 PM | Link to this
Jared You’re and idiot….
Maybe we could trade Boyer, Ring, Pena and Bennett to Baltimore for Bedard, Yeah… Think they will go for that? Works for me….
By doc
December 21, 2007 10:37 PM | Link to this
well i can now worry about more than my wallet, now my checkbook is taking a hit
dob, just saw a phenomenal movie. see it if you havent and take the lady. some scenes are indescribable and one had me literally breathless laughing so hard … lars and the real girl. it is much more than a comedy. well done throughout along the lines of waitress or the sunshine girl.
By Jared
December 21, 2007 10:57 PM | Link to this
You’re and idiot….
Maybe we could trade Boyer, Ring, Pena and Bennett to Baltimore for Bedard, Yeah… Think they will go for that? Works for me….
You’re drunk I believe. Get some sleep.
By CharlieAlphaBravo
December 21, 2007 11:09 PM | Link to this
After a short absence from the wonderful world of blogosphere Choptalk (oops, is that trademarked?), I am back. You may now be relieved. For some, my voice rings out as a shining beacon of clarity in an otherwise obscured onslaught of baseball and pop music prattle. For others, I am a source of exquisite and everlasting inspiration (alliteration anyone?). Still others appriciate my sly wit… At least, I think you’re laughing with me… Right?
Anyway, glad we didn’t gut our club to trade for Haren. He would have been an outstanding addition to the club, but it wouldn’t have made sense from a managerial standpoint. The Bravos appear to have substantial depth in their starting rotation, so dealing up to six potentially promising prospects (sorry, can’t help myself) for yet another starting pitcher would be foolish. There’s still plenty of time ‘til April, but so far Wren’s passed my GM litmus test with flying colors… Or, color?
Also, I’ve been a little critical of some blogling’s top album lists, but overall I’m very pleased with everyone’s taste. I’ve discovered a lot of wonderful music from this blog and it’s blogillians. I’d like to take a second to thank all of you beautiful blogomites…….. There. Thanks. And without any further ado, my top ten albums of 2007 in alphabetical order:
Arcade Fire Neon Bible
Arctic Monkeys Favourite Worst Nightmare
Flight Of The Conchords The Distant Future
Jason Isbell Sirens Of The Ditch
Talib Kweli Ear Drum
Bettye LaVette & DBT The Scene Of The Crime
moe. The Conch
Radiohead In Rainbows
Robert Plant & Alison Krauss Raising Sand
Soulive No Place Like Soul
There’s lots of stuff that you blogonians seem to like that I haven’t had the pleasure of listening to, but I am working on, um, let’s say, “acquiring” those albums as we speak… Or, I write, or whatever… Feist, Band Of Horses, Spoon, Iron & Wine, etc… I’ll let everyone know how much I loved them, or how badly I wish I hadn’t wasted my time. And just so we’re crystal DOB, I love Arcade Fire. It seems you may have mistaken me for someone who doesn’t, but I assure you, I want to marry them. I want nothing more than to cuddle up and warm my feet on the Arcade Fire. Of Montreal, on the other hand, are awful. The anti-Arcade Fire, if you will. I was tricked into seeing them once at the 40 watt, and I nearly escaped by drilling a hole through the floor. With my head. And before any of you blogarians accuse me of being un-original and including only a few albums that had not been mentioned yet, consider this: Nuh-uh. I selected my top albums of 2007 over a year ago. I was first. Besides, I can’t help it if most of you Blogidians have super-sweet tunage taste.
This just in: The Mets have traded Jose Reyes to the Boston Red Sox for cash and prospects. The Mets will replace Reyes at SS and in the lead-off spot with David Wright. He will also continue to play 3B and bat third. If Wright ends up on base when he comes up to bat (which he surely will be), he will have to run to home plate to swing and then return to his base without being picked off. In order to single with himself on base, he will need to score and then continue to first base for a single (but he will most likely double or triple). In the event that Wright walks with himself on base, he will have to occupy both bases simultaneously. When asked how he will accomplish such a seemingly impossible feat, he simply shrugged. “Oh, I don’t know about that,” said Wright, “but I do know that I have a great bunch of guys around me to help get it done.” He continued, “I’m just going to try and give 110% every day and hope that the good Lord above grants me the strength to do well.” Wow, what a great guy… No wonder he won that Golden Glove.
Happy holidays to all you wonderful Blogstonians!
By Joe Smoe
December 21, 2007 11:13 PM | Link to this
Bah, Haren… No thanks, Bedard, No thanks. I prefer Blanton. He would be cheaper, and eats innings. He would be a true number 3, and would make this rotation solid for years.
By CharlieAlphaBravo
December 21, 2007 11:16 PM | Link to this
Ahhh… All-bold-typers beware! You have been outsmarted… Again!
By Robert
December 21, 2007 11:41 PM | Link to this
“Cox to be honored: Braves manager Bobby Cox, Hall of Famer Tony Gwynn, Braves chairman emeritus Bill Bartholomay, and former Dodgers scout Ralph Avila are among those who’ll be honored for lifetime achievement by the Professional Baseball Scouts Foundation at its annual gala Jan. 19 at the Hyatt Regency Century Plaza Hotel in Los Angeles.”
What an insult to Bartholomay, Avila, and most of all, to Gwynn
By the way, how could the AJC do a tribute to “The Year in Stupid” without a single mention of Cox?
By Steve McP
December 21, 2007 11:59 PM | Link to this
Why all in bold?
Who can we hope to get for the prospects if it is so obvious that the Braves will have to trade or lose them - are we looking at more “players to be named later” that turn out not be named and end up as enough cash to cover Tex’s salary for about 3 hours.
Surely other teams can work out who the Braves need to get rid of and so their trade value is significantly lowered.
By David O'Brien
December 22, 2007 12:01 AM | Link to this
If there were ever any doubts about the lack of monitoring on this blog, the fact that this thing sat here for three hours with nearly all boldface type should tell you something.
I had to race out of my house to get to the movie on time and wasn’t able to check it after I’d changed some coding on bold and italics, etc. Anyway, got home and saw that ugliness. Sorry about that. It’s fixed now.
By the way, my highest recommendation for the movie Juno, which we just saw tonight. Outstanding movie. Those who liked, say, Little Miss Sunshine and/or Superbad, it’s got a lot of both of those movies in it. Clever, hilarious, smart comedy. And completely original. With great music. Put it on your list of holiday possibilities. It’s a great movie….
CharlieAlphaBravo, I like your CD list. Some really good stuff on there.
By David O'Brien
December 22, 2007 12:04 AM | Link to this
Doc, I saw that movie a few weeks ago and loved it. (Lars and the Real Girl). That guy, Ryan Gosling, has quickly joined the elite group of best actors of his generation, in my opinion. Did you see Half Nelson last year? He was phenomenal in that movie. Absolutely phenomenal.
Go see Juno. You’ll love it. Great date movie, too.
By brian
December 22, 2007 12:18 AM | Link to this
I am glad that the Braves did not make the trade for Haren. Yes he would strengthen the rotation but that package would be way too much to give up. A pitcher is too risky - see Mike Hampton, Gonzalez, etc. It would be one thing to give a big contract but to do the contract and mortgage the future is foolish.
The Braves have top young talent - pitching and position players that will be ready in 1-2 years. It will be exciting to watch the Braves reload - much as they did with Frenchy and McCann, and now with Escobar.
By brian
December 22, 2007 12:19 AM | Link to this
I am glad that the Braves did not make the trade for Haren. Yes he would strengthen the rotation but that package would be way too much to give up. A pitcher is too risky - see Mike Hampton, Gonzalez, etc. It would be one thing to give a big contract but to do the contract and mortgage the future is foolish.
The Braves have top young talent - pitching and position players that will be ready in 1-2 years. It will be exciting to watch the Braves reload - much as they did with Frenchy and McCann, and now with Escobar.
By Gil in Mechanicsville
December 22, 2007 1:29 AM | Link to this
Drunk? I have not been drunk since 1973……. Just cold hard sarcasm my good man….
I just figured if one person could make an idiotic statement, then it was open season….
It all come down to having the ability to develop talent within your own system and then praying they stay healthy.
I would love to have an Austin Martin but the likelihood of that happening is slim. I could if I was willing to give up buying gas for it and didn’t flinch at the thought of someone scratching it. Sometimes you just have to be practical.
Now, owning 5 Yugos wont get it done either but somewhere in the middle is the answer.
Let’s face the facts, placing all of one’s eggs in one basket can be a risky venture. Ask LA how the Jason Schmidt trade worked out for them last year.
Okay folks, have a good night….
By Bo
December 22, 2007 1:30 AM | Link to this
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. DOB you do a great job covering the Braves and Music world. Thanks Man and Gods Speed.
By Gator
December 22, 2007 2:06 AM | Link to this
Hey dob, have you seen Superbad? If so, did you like it?
By BosnianBaller
December 22, 2007 3:07 AM | Link to this
Hay DOB give me your top ten rap and rock albums of all time
By Curt
December 22, 2007 3:21 AM | Link to this
I have had Iron and Wine’s new album on repeat for a few weeks, I absolutely love it. I really wish they would come to ATL so I could get a chance to see them live.
Juno is not playing in Birmingham any where yet but I really want to take my fiancee to see it. I loved Little Miss Sunshine and I love George Michael.
DOB, did you ever watch Arrested Development?
By Rodney Derrick
December 22, 2007 3:51 AM | Link to this
On Juno, I have not yet seen it, but from seeing Ellen Page act in the movie “Hard Candy”, which I recently saw on Showtime, would make any movie featuring her worth seeing. Clearly, she will be around a long time, unless she pulls a Lohan or Spears.
By Nolie
December 22, 2007 4:04 AM | Link to this
They believe Schafer is going to be an absolute star — not just as good as Grady Sizemore, but a lot better. DOB
Let’s just say that I’m kinda skeptical of that.
By AJinAZ
December 22, 2007 4:34 AM | Link to this
Does it seem like the Rangers got Hamilton for nothing? He sure fit the profile of Stop Gap!?!
By Nolie
December 22, 2007 6:02 AM | Link to this
Does it seem like the Rangers got Hamilton for nothing? He sure fit the profile of Stop Gap!?!AJ inAZ
might have had too many questions/problems for the Braves to have felt comfortable with him??
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 22, 2007 6:27 AM | Link to this
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all !!!
Bud Selig is still commissioner , Baseball is still juiced on roids , HGH and money(it’s been that way for the last 20 years or more). Furthermore , it will stay that way until the feds step in and clean house (fat chance of that happening anytime soon).
The Braves didn’t need Dan Haren , they already have the pitching to make it into the playoffs.
They do still need a proven veteran CF and another quality lefty in the bullpen until Mike Gonzalez is fully recovered from T.J. surgery.
Did the Braves even consider Josh Hamilton ?
Willy Aybar will make the team barring injury or relapse. The guy is to good of an athlete. Switch hitter , good defensive player , young and affordable , plays 3B and 2B. No way do the Braves let him get away because of not having minor league options.
Javy Lopez has a chance as a back up. He just has to beat out four other catchers for the job.
I’ll go out on a limb and predict that Brent Lillibridge won’t even get an invite to the Braves big league camp. Barring injury , the Braves have nowhere for him to play. The Braves won’t burn an option or start his clock just yet.
Brandon Jones did see action in CF playing in the Mexican Winter league but I’m not sure if it means anything or pertains to the Braves plans for him.
Gregor Blanco will get his chance in CF during spring training , we shall see what happens.
Two players still on my Christmas wish list : Coco Crisp and Jimmy Gobble.
Enjoy the holidays my fellow bloggers , I’ll be enjoying my five day break !
2008 , playoffs baby ! PLAYOFFS !!!
By ncscoots
December 22, 2007 6:49 AM | Link to this
Nolie, re Schaefer, have you seen the kid play? I have. And while I think better-than-Sizemore might be optimistic, I can’t discount the possibility, either.
No one wanted to “gut the farm” for Haren, and that’s probably wise. Depends on your definition of “gut”, I guess. But, to be in play for FA pitchers in 2009 or 2010, it’s likely they’ll have to “gut” the payroll. So I guess you picks your poison. Anybody think elite pitching is gonna get cheaper anytime soon? Me neither.
And despite the love for all the minor league pitching in the Braves’ org, the team will be lucky if one, and only one, becomes a mid-rotation, or better, performer. Just the nature of the beast. The team will need to add pitching strength from outside the organization, sometime, somehow.
And, finally, to all my blog buds (including those MIA), a wish for the happiest of holiday seasons, and may the new year see you healthy, wealthy, and wise.
And, David, a sincere thanks for this forum. It’s about as much fun as a baseball fan can have without a hot dog, a beer, and a seat.
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 22, 2007 6:53 AM | Link to this
Alexei Ramirez signed with the White Sox for 4.75 million and four years. Not bad , low cost , high reward player who can play 2B and the OF.
Here is a link to baseball America about Ramirez.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=597
By doc
December 22, 2007 7:31 AM | Link to this
dob, thanks for the head’s up on juo. i’ll check it out. yes, ryan gosling has really come of age. his range and timing is superb, kind of reminds me a bit of john cusack in a way. anyway that initial scene when he is introducing his new girl friend to the family had me laughing so hard that i was trying to stifle it because the movie theater wasnt full and some folks take in the audience was different as they came to see it as funny. interesting to observe the audience response whether to laugh at times. that scene was just as hilarious as the scene of folks trying to get into the bus in sunshine and just about the whole dern movie of superbad which was definitely a guys coming of age movie that strikes waaay to close for all of us.
appreciate the total effort of the blog for the past year and look forward to the new year. again you’re hurting me with the extensive best lists. just gave it up to the kids and said have at it for christmas. they were pretty impressed at the range of your tastes as well. just got to get you into the healing music as well for my own benefit at the clinic.
By nOLIE
December 22, 2007 7:41 AM | Link to this
Nolie, re Schaefer, have you seen the kid play? I have. And while I think better-than-Sizemore might be optimistic, I can’t discount the possibility, either.ncscoots
No I have not been able to see him play, but being better than Grady is a very tall order, I mean the guy had 92 extra bases one season. But it was stated as WAY BETTER and that was what I was really reacting to. I have seen them hype so many guys(Betemit.Lombard.Komminsk,a dozen or more different pitchers to put all that much faith in what they say about their own prospects. I prefer to consider what others say about them and though they say he is a grat prospect, I’ve seen nobody else say he is gonna be WAY BETTER than Grady. I mean over the last 3 seasons all considered just how many players in BB are WAY better than he is? I hope they are absolutely correct, I’m just skeptical that it’s gonna happen. I’ll be thrilled to admit that I’m wrong if he turns out to have that much power/speed/OBP after the first 3 full years.
By TommyP
December 22, 2007 9:12 AM | Link to this
IF the Braves hadn’t dealt for Teixeira and, therefore, lost all of those prospects, then a deal for Haren at an expensive price would be doable.
However, NO WAY you can give up what Arizona just gave up. No way.
Silva came at a king’s ransom…that’s such a loser’s deal.
And so many on here suggested Lohse. Another loser deal. He’s very subpar and coming at a big price. You don’t sign million dollar deals with losing pitchers.
Wonder if the Braves ever offered anything for Josh Hamilton?
By Billy Walsh
December 22, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this
Wow, better than Grady Sizemore? That would be a nice to have patroling center for the next 5+ years. Somebody made a good point about Blanton. Any shot the braves would make a trade proposal? Sticking with music theme, my top 10 bands in the past 20 years. 1. Janes Addiction 2. Sonic Youth 3. Smashing Pumpkins 4. Alice n Chains 5. Nirvana 6. REM 7. Red Hot Chili Peppers 8. U2 9. Pearl Jam 10. Guns n Roses
By Billy Walsh
December 22, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this
Wow, better than Grady Sizemore? That would be a nice to have patroling center for the next 5+ years. Somebody made a good point about Blanton. Any shot the braves would make a trade proposal? Sticking with music theme, my top 10 bands in the past 20 years. 1. Janes Addiction 2. Sonic Youth 3. Smashing Pumpkins 4. Alice n Chains 5. Nirvana 6. REM 7. Red Hot Chili Peppers 8. U2 9. Pearl Jam 10. Guns n Roses
By Billy Walsh
December 22, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this
Wow, better than Grady Sizemore? That would be a nice to have patroling center for the next 5+ years. Somebody made a good point about Blanton. Any shot the braves would make a trade proposal? Sticking with music theme, my top 10 bands in the past 20 years. 1. Janes Addiction 2. Sonic Youth 3. Smashing Pumpkins 4. Alice n Chains 5. Nirvana 6. REM 7. Red Hot Chili Peppers 8. U2 9. Pearl Jam 10. Guns n Roses
By Billy Walsh
December 22, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this
sorry about that.
By Joe Fan
December 22, 2007 9:48 AM | Link to this
DOB!!
How did Ryan Adams’ Easy Tiger not make your top 50?
By Lew
December 22, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this
Scoots-Lucky if only ONE pitcher from the farm system becomes a mid rotation starter? Damn, son, that’s the most pessimistic appraisal I’ve ever heard. Maybe the Braves should just stop drafting pitchers here and now. They’ll NEVER produce another decent pitcher if you’re correct. Sorry, but I just can’t agree with you. Maybe they don’t have the next Johann Santana, but one mid rotation guy from the entire minor league system? Wow. Holy Cornelia. Yikes. Whatever.
By chrisklob
December 22, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this
DOB, As we said here last week, when one of our regulars on the blog suggested that Selig and Don Fehr be fired, there’s no way Selig and Fehr get fired when attendance is at an all-time high and teams and players are splitting a bigger financial pie than ever.
I believe that you may be referring to a post that I made on December 14 at 7.40pm:
In my opinion, Bud Selig and Don Fehr should both step down from their positions. They both allowed this to happen on their watch.
Please note that I said they should be resign or be fired, not would resign or be fired. And I stand by that statement. Don’t get me wrong, I understand why it won’t happen.
Again from the same Dec. 14 post: Without doubt, both had much to gain from an increase in popularity. I read that baseball grossed $6 billion dollars this year. It was their greed, along with the greed of the owners and the players that precipitated this terrible situation.
If people love money then everyone in baseball should be very happy because they’ve found a way to make tons of it. What is disgusting to me is the fact that their greed was the driving force behind this fiasco. They allowed that greed to make all of their decisions at the expense of the reputation of this great game. Money isn’t everything. The reputation of the game should count for something too.
In the business world if a major corporation is hit with a scandal of these proportions, it would ultimately take down the CEO of the corporation. Same goes in the military. There have been plenty of generals forced to retire when improprieties amongst their underlings are discovered. Why should it not happen here? Donald Fehr, on behalf of the players that he represents, refused to allow any sort of testing until he was absolutely forced to do so. Bud Selig turned a blind eye to the problem years ago. They are both a disgrace to the game and if either of them had a lick of honor in their souls they would resign. But they have no honor.
Bud Selig has done some wonderful things for baseball. Interleague play has been a huge success. Expanding the playoffs to include a wild card has been even bigger, in my opinion. But he’s done some really stupid things too. Tying the All-Star game winner to home field advantage in the WS is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard. What happened to the Expos franchise is inexcusable.
But his ultimate legacy will show that he allowed unbridled cheating to go on for twenty years. That should go on his Hall of Fame plaque in Cooperstown.
By David O'Brien
December 22, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this
Joe Fan, total oversight. I had it in my top 25, replaced it when I realized that I’d left out Jason Isbell, then forgot to put it in the next 25. It’s there now.
By David O'Brien
December 22, 2007 10:24 AM | Link to this
Chrisklob, actually I was referring to uga-braves’s suggestion that they be fired. But thanks for your fair and reasoned post. Good points, especially about Selig….
Billy Walsh, that’s what you’ll hear privately from some who’ve seen him play a lot in the minors — better than Sizemore, though I should have clarified that I took that as mostly defensive skills. They do think he’ll hit and hit plenty, but it’s hard to project he’ll be a better hitter than Sizemore, considering the numbers Grady’s put up. Still, I think they believe he has the potential (big word, that) to be better overall.
Oh, and I dig your list of best bands of 20 years. Most would be on mine, too.
By David O'Brien
December 22, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this
Doc, you’re right — hilarious moments in Lars and the Real Girl, but moments whether you don’t know if you should laugh in the theatre (I did) or what. That movie’s got such a range of emotions — laughter, pity, anger. Great movie. It’s obviously not for everybody, but a great movie.
Healing music? What, the Black Lips ain’t healing music (smile).
Hey, if you haven’t heard the Once soundtrack, you’ll find that quite uplifting and “healing,” my friend. I’m betting on that. Very moving stuff.
By JimD
December 22, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this
I’ll start out by saying Danny Haren is a good pitcher, a really good pitcher. But earlier, Jared mentioned the Braves’ desire to build an elite rotation. I believe they want to do that, but Haren has yet to prove over the long term he is a piece that make a rotation elite. Again, he is good, very good. But elite? Not worth the gamble when you already have a pretty good assemblage of arms, including some promising up and comers.
And Tommy P you drug up the Tex trade and the prospects we gave up for him,
IF the Braves hadn’t dealt for Teixeira and, therefore, lost all of those prospects, then a deal for Haren at an expensive price would be doable.
But I honestly would rather have Tex without Haren on this Braves’ team than have Haren without Tex. Without him, we would also be talking about whether or not it was wise to give up a boatload of prospects for a 1B rather than for a SP.
I am glad to see the Braves in the player development business again. We forget too soon that such a strategy is what produce the dynasty that won so many division titles. Looks like the Braves are getting set up again, only this time they are starting from a much more talent rich perspective than last time.
The future looks good for the Braves, and possibly the future starts to unfold in 08.
By David O'Brien
December 22, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this
Curt, saw Iron and Wine with Calexico in Atlanta (Variety Playhouse) a couple years ago. Terrific show.
Yes on Arrested Development, the most criminally underappreciated TV comedy ever. And as you probably know, two of its stars are in Juno, including the kid who plays the boyfriend who gets Juno pregnant, and his TV dad in Arrested Development.
By 3trees
December 22, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this
Echoing scoots at 6:49 AM - Thanks for a great blog. All the best of the season and the coming year.
Peace y’all
By Dadgum
December 22, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this
Ah yes, great music out there, but Led Zeppelin came out of the cave to blow everyone away this year. Granted no new music but they don’t have to. They showed that there are two levels of music talent. The top one they occupy by themselves. Every other act is trying to position themselves on the next level.
5 sports wishes for 2008: 1. 16 team college football playoff.(I will be happy to write a separate blog detailing exactly how it can be done easily) 2. NCAA requires college basketball players to commit to 3 years minimum.(someone please tell me why they shouldn’t…please) 3. Pete Rose elected to the HOF.(nuff said) 4. Braves beat Boston in the World Series (I know, I’m a homer) 5. Georgia Tech to beat Georgia(gotta happen again sooner or later, right?)
Rock on…Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all bloggers and the King Denizen Scribe.
By David O'Brien
December 22, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this
Gator, I thought Suberbad was one of the best movies of the year, without question. Hilarious. Even better than Knocked Up, which was also outstanding.
BosnianBaller, top 10 albums of all time? That’s too tough, man. But I’d have the Clash’s London Calling at the top. After that, it’d take a while to compile that list.
By doc
December 22, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this
yeah agree, wide range, not for everyone. ultimately the movie was about compassion and support and we just dont really know what is going on inside and why and it is not our issue to change them for how we will look but how to get outside of ourselves sometimes to the situation. role of the brother was huge as was the whole of the supporting cast.
will see juno, sounds good, maybe not as quirky as some discussed recently and maybe better than knocked up which for some reason didnt quite resonate with me as loudly as it did with some. thought the f bomb was used too often when other words might have been more poignant or descriptive to the situation but unavailable to the writer. face it, that is an easy out and a cheap laugh. i feel so used when that happens. :-)) heh heh
By doc
December 22, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this
oh yeah, ONCE got on the list for the kids to get dad for christmas even though it wasnt a top 25 which has grown to top fifty with asterisks. sounds like your music got on steroids down at the gym and your trainer is the cause. that is why i cant risk it in the clinic; only go with bio-identicals and herbs these days.
only “peace during the holidays”guys. off to shop and that is my mantra, f… yes.
ok, it was cheap.
By TommyP
December 22, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this
JimD: My point on the Teixeira deal was to explain why we couldn’t also net Haren. Not saying who I’d rather have….just pointing out to the detractors that they couldn’t do BOTH deals.
IF we can sign Teixeira long term, I love that deal. If not, it proved to be not so good.
The only reason I don’t fault John Schuerholz in not getting JD Drew signed long term years ago was because he hadn’t had that breakout season until his one season with Atlanta. Injuries also made him a huge risk.
But Teixeira? We MUST sign him long term.
By David O'Brien
December 22, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this
doc, not many f-bombs in Juno. Different in that regard, for sure. Very clever dialogue and the girl who plays Juno is just about as good as it gets, cut and an amazing actress.
By JimD
December 22, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this
TommyP agreed on Tex, we need to sign him.
And can’t say that the Tex trade turns out so bad even if we don’t sign him. It was a gamble worth taking nonetheless. Afterall, Salty didn’t exactly go to Arlington and become the new A Rod. He may yet prove to be when some think, or … maybe not.
By doc
December 22, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this
cut or cute? i like it both ways but my preference is for the combination in the same package, if possible.
By doc
December 22, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this
let’s not overlook the defining moment for the relevance of the braves organization for the end of this decade and going into the next decade rests with their ability to sign tex. he is of the same importance to this organization going forward as maddox was in the early nineties. tex is the foundation and cornerstone to competing in the small parks and playing long ball as maddox was in the era towards the end of dead ball.
unfortunately, we deal with boras and how that negotiation goes and how much tex gets involved is liable to tell the rest of the story for the franchise and what we can expect as a product for the future. it will also be the signal of how the new owners really want to run the organization as a passion and a first line business or as a tax write off. if tex isnt signed i see it of the same nature to the organization as the len barker trade many years ago, a huge waste.
By Gil in Mechanicsville
December 22, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this
Good morning all, No sense in haggling over past trades, it is not going to change anything. It is just a matter now of seeing what the Braves needs are come the last week in March.
Coach Invitations to spring training do not count against a player’s options.
Finally, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.
By Braveheart
December 22, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this
Man, Knocked Up was a great movie. And yeah I understand the F bomb and stuff could be offensive to some people. But ya gotta remember it was about a bunch of 23 year olds. Knocked Up is definitely the raunchy version that would have been made if Harry had knocked up Sally back when they first met. Back when I was 23 years old, that’s how my friends and I all talked and acted. I don’t think it had much to do with the limitations of the writer that he included so many F bombs. It was much more of just a realistic depiction of how many 23 year olds act and talk and would react in a similar situation.
Knocked Up is far better than the sappy, cornballish, cliche ridden, sitcomish crapola that Hollywood typically throws out there in the form of romantic comedies. As far as romantic comedies go, I would put Knocked Up right there with Annie Hall, When Harry Met Sally, Reality Bites, The Brothers McMullen, and She’s The One. Those are about the only romantic comedies I can tolerate without feeling like I am braindead and have a mangina.
Well, anyways, I got a visit from the Ghost of Christmas Past last night in the form of the girl i totally effed over at the age of 23. She was on her way to visit her parents for Christmas. We rented Knocked Up. Perfect movie to take us back in time to who we were and the mistakes we made (or rather I made).
By Braveheart
December 22, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this
Braveheart, as soon as you return (unless it’s too long after 9 o’clock) I’ve got some unfinished business to straighten out with you, buddy!!
No offense McFann. But that is not exactly the message I wanted to see first thing in the morning from a 15 year old girl on the internet.
By brian kelley
December 22, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this
I still think the Braves make a late push for CoCo Crisp. boston needs to move him….Chuck James can get alot more value in a trade than people think. Look at the dollars thrown around for sub-par pitchers. If we trade him I could see him being a career .500 pitcher at best and we could get a top reliver and a few prospects…the paternity test came back from Jamie-Lynn spears and guess who the real Daddy is…..David Wright
By chrisklob
December 22, 2007 11:57 AM | Link to this
Breaking news from the Vatican*….. David Wright is going to be the next pope!
By Wayne in Utah
December 22, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this
Gil Are you dissin on my fleet of Yugos???
How is everyone. Today is the big day. Got about 5 gifts to get….big crowds, here I come!
BTW, Gil Last night you had it spelled wrong: It is NOT you’re and idiot, its “your and idiot”. Show true idiocy when stated that way.
10Paul Did you ever truly believe that when the Braves said they were going to spend “millions” more, it was more than TG’s salary basically. I sure didn’t. Now, if they got someone to bite on a trade for someone that increased the salary by another 5-10 million, they might just.
With the increases for Smoltz and Hudson, and with Tex replacing AJ’s salary, and with the normal increases for others, they have already increased payroll.
Just in case I don’t survive the day of shopping, “It was great knowing you guys and sorry I haven’t been around much lately!” I have listened in regularly, but keep my big mouth shut for the most part.
Dave, thanks for the forum and your good work here!
Merry Christmas to all! (or whatever you might celebrate this time of year)
By Wayne in Utah
December 22, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this
The award for being in the right place at EXACTLY the right time: My nomination goes to Carlos Silva!
By Santa
December 22, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this
David Wright, with your star so bright, won’t you guide my sleigh tonight?
By Wayne in Utah
December 22, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this
brian kelley I see ATL making a play for CoCo, but I don’t see Boston doing that deal until the Johan Santana sweepstakes are resolved.
By Gil in Mechanicsville
December 22, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this
doc Nothing will ever match the Len Barker trade…… I think Teixiera is one of those rare impact players but we have seen that a team cannot strap themselves so financially to one player’s fortunes. Unless you have an unlimited cap for payroll, you are doomed as an organization. You are always one pitch away from being a league doormat.
No question the Braves are better with Teixeira than without but it is really going to depend on how much is enough for him to stay in Atlanta vs what he can make in New York.
The following is not going to happen but I will mention it anyway. I think there should be bot a cap and a floor on what each team can spend on players each year. I think there should be an increase in the number of players each team can carry to 26 or 27 on their full time roster. This would be the compromise necessary to get the player’s union to agree on a cap. There should also be a bigger incentive for players to win devision championships and pennants as well as the world series. This could again offset Union concerns for “greedy” owners.
It should not be expected that teams exist solely for the enjoyment of the players and their financial well being but that baseball is a business and as such each franchise should be allowed the opportunity prosper. Now if poor management causes a franchise to fail, so be it. Otherwise, just start an all New York-Boston league and be done with it. The rest of the country could get along very nicely thank you.
By Gil in Mechanicsville
December 22, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this
Wayne I was “drunk”…. :-) Sorry about the Yugos, So… How many miles per gallon do you get while pushing them between garages?
By McFann
December 22, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this
Good grief, Braveheart!! I’m not 15!! How many times do I have to tell you that? SHEESH!!
Anyway, I don’t think that our discussion of cocky vs. humble was ever settled. You never responded to my case. You said you didn’t know why I had a problem with a player being cocky. Well, let’s see:
Cockiness can lead a player to disregard their coaches and/or other players who want to help out. The player might think, “Hey, I’m good enough already. Why should these people tell me what to do?” Just look at Andruw Jones. He wouldn’t listen to Terry Pendleton about improving his hitting, and he hit .222 for the year!! True enough that Escobar hit .326. But that’s what can lead a player to get cocky and act the way Andruw Jones did.
On the contrary, when a player is humble, like McCann, it pays off eventually. Being humble doesn’t mean that he would go around thinking that he couldn’t do anything correct and that everybody in the world is better. No, a better way to describe it would be, “I’m not too bad, but I’m not perfect. I should get somebody to help me do better for the team.” Remember in June, when McCann was hitting .238 for the month, he didn’t go around thinking that he was going to all of the sudden start doing better because he hit .333 last year. Instead, he went to his dad for help. The next day, (6/18 against Boston) he went two for four with a double, a homer, and four RBIs. Andruw never sought help for his problems, and he stunk!! So maybe McCann finished the year with a .270 batting average, but that’s better than .222, isn’t it? Simply stated, the arrogant are one day punished, the humbled are one day rewarded.
*”He has shown might with His arm
He has scattered the proud in their conceit
He has cast down the mighty from their thrones,
But has lifted up the lowly.”*
By Braveheart
December 22, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this
The Tex trade should have worked last season. The Braves scored about a half run more with him. Unfortunately, Edgar got hurt, Chuck James went into the tank, Soriano got smacked around the first two weeks Tex was here, JoJo didn’t step up until it was too late, Cox kept batting Willie Harris leadoff, Andruw Jones never turned it around, Buddy Carlyle went back to being Buddy Carlyle, Lance Cormier never stopped being Lance Cormier, Dotel went on the DL forever, Wickman acted like a putz,
By brian
December 22, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this
well said Braveheart
By Gil in Mechanicsville
December 22, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this
Two years at $18 mil per year is some punishment eh? And banished to LaLa land… Oh My!!!!
By McFann
December 22, 2007 12:46 PM | Link to this
DOB, you didn’t italicize some of my typing.
By Braveheart
December 22, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this
McFann I didn’t respond because I am a little bit tired of going round and round the world in 80 days with ya. Doesn’t matter what any of us say, you turn it into an incorrectly perceived slight of McCann.
Being cocky is not great but ……
How about when McCann did not go on the DL and would not take days off in May and June when he was clearly injured and his performance was suffering? Did it perhaps have something to do with the hotshot Salty just being called up and McCann having the sort of pride that refuses to allow himself to get Wally Pipped? I love McCann but there was a dose of arrogance and cockiness we saw out of McCann during those months. Ain’t refusing to sit down when your poor performance is somewhat hurting the team somewhat as cocky as Andruw not listening to advice when his performance was hurting the team?
It is also somewhat easier for McCann to be more humble than Andruw, Frenchy, Chipper, Smoltz or Glavine. McCann does not have the God given talents those guys have. The game comes somewhat easier for those guys. McCann has to work harder to compete with them. Even when Frenchy is bad, he has proven he is capable of 30 homers, 100 RBIs, and even when Andruw is at his worst, he has proven he is capable of 26 homers, 90 something RBIs. McCann on the other hand at his best has to work hard to get to 25 homers, 90 RBIs.
Like Uncle Ben told Peter Parker, with great power comes great responsibility. But for guys like McCann who don’t have great ability, the reverse is almost true. With great responsibility comes the great ability. So, it is a little easier for him to be humble than the other guys.
Sure, cockiness can make the blessed take their talents for granted. On the other hand, extremely high levels of arrogance like Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Brett Favre, Dan Marino, Muhummad Ali, Dale Earnhardt, Richard Petty, John McEnroe, Mark Messier, John Smoltz, Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux had/have, make them the greatest.
Was there anything more cocky and arrogant than Maddux demanding his own personal catcher? Smoltz was humble enough to become a closer, arrogant enough to become the best closer, and cocky enough to demand he become a starter again. Chipper was humble enough to go to left and cocky enough to demand going back to third base.
Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemeiux, Pete Sampras, Tim Duncan seemed to be about the most humble great superstars you could have. But then again I am not as familiar with the diva like behavior they probably had sometimes. For example, wasn’t it cocky for Gretzky to demand a trade to Los Angeles because his wife mistakenly thought she was an actress because she once appeared in a Police Academy movie?
But Barry Sanders for me was a superstar who was the greatest at what he did who was way too humble for his own good. The greatest running back of his generation should have every record in the book. But just as he never celebrated touchdowns, he could care less about having his share of the record book.
By Shaun
December 22, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, plus the timing was just off as far as scoring and allowing runs goes and the breaks didn’t go their way; the Braves had the third-best run differential in the National League, which is a pretty good indication that they were as good as the teams that made the playoffs.
By Braveheart
December 22, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this
McFann, since you are 15 years old and all, I will put it this way:
Chipper, Smoltz, Andruw are superheroes like Spiderman or Superman who have been blessed with great ability.
McCann is more like Batman - no special abilities. He has to work hard to develop his own weapons in order to become a superhero.
Frenchy is kinda like Peter Petrelli on Heroes. All of these abilities he has no idea how to control. He can either save the world with his abilities or end the world by causing a nuclear blast.
Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds however are Sylar on Heroes. Evil b*******.
Or, if they were kung fu stars: Chipper would be Bruce Lee, Smoltz would be Chuck Norris, 1996 Andruw would be the young Steven Seagal, the 2007 Andruw would be the fat, bloated, old Seagal. Although I guess some would say McCann is the fat Seagal.
By Lew
December 22, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this
McFann-Pay no attention to Braveheart-He’s an instigator-plus he’s an Alabama fan. That right there points to a major character flaw. Ain’t that right, Braveheart?
That drawing you sent last night was good. Do you have anything more recent? I’d be interested to see whatever you could send.
By Braveheart
December 22, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this
Lew, instigator? Moi? What are you speaking of? Well, anyways, better be careful exchanging emails with a 15 year old girl. :>> We don’t want the blog featured on Dateline there buddy. Alright, gotta hit the road and deal with all the animals at the mall.
By Steve McP
December 22, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this
A couple of Yugo one-liners.
“Why does a Yugo have a heated rear window?”
To keep your hands warm when pushing it in winter.
“What do you call a Yugo with a dented fender?”
An insurance write-off
By Robert
December 22, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this
“Braveheart, plus the timing was just off as far as scoring and allowing runs goes and the breaks didn’t go their way; the Braves had the third-best run differential in the National League, which is a pretty good indication that they were as good as the teams that made the playoffs.”
Translation - The Braves were as good as any team in the National League. Whoever was charged with proper utilization of the resources on hand thoroughly screwed things up, but we’ll make excuses for him by calling it bad luck (again)
By David O'Brien
December 22, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, agree with you on that analysis of Knocked Up. Anyone who knows that screenwriter’s work, knows he’s not at all “limited.” Brilliant guy.
And you’re right — it’s exactly the way folks of that age talk, at least a lot of folks. I know I did. I wasn’t at all offended or turned off by the language. To me, it made it more realistic.
I was merely pointing out to Doc that Juno doesn’t have so much salty language, probably in large part because so much of the dialogue is among a very sharp teen-aged girl and adults, rather than conversations between young guys.
By Overlord
December 22, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this
I wonder who long will the season be if glavine and smoltz get hit badly and hampton never makes it back.
Probably the answer is 162 games, hehe, but it sure wont feel like that. Probabilities are that only one out of the 3 youngsters will be above average. It could be better than that, but i really doubt it.
Things could be great for the braves if the oldies do some workout and keep in shape. Otherwise get prepared for a very long season.
Could you imagine how bad this season could go if only one of our 3 older players (chipper, john or tom) hit the DL for a long period (more than a month)?
Of course the other side of the coin is….. braves will be almost unstoppable if those have average years.
Same scenario if gonzo and hampton never make it back or if they both make it back in a big way.
Everything is unpredictable right now for us. In paper we could have as we speak a 105 wins teams. But this same team if fatality hits us could end up winning no more than 85.
Lets hope for the best and let spring get here.
GOOOOOOO Braves!!!!!!!!!!!!
By David O'Brien
December 22, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this
Overlord, Smoltz is a workout freak. Nobody on the team works out harder in the offseason than that “oldster,” and when I saw him at the winter meetings he said he was already doing his offseason regimen. Glavine’s never been on the DL, so I don’t think that should be a big concern.
Hampton, yes, huge question mark. But as we’ve said many times, Braves aren’t counting on him. Hoping he’ll contribute, but not counting on him.
And obviously, Chipper probably has to play at least 130-140 games or so for the Braves to have much chance. Take him out of the lineup, and Tex might not be seeing many pitches.
By chrisklob
December 22, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this
Shut up Robert.
By GermanBravesFan
December 22, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this
Greetings and Happy Holidays to all from freezing Germany! I hope all you Braves fans (minus Robert…) will have a peaceful and relaxing Christmas.
On my way over, I saw the movie “Once” on the plane. A great low-budget ($150k) movie with great music! If you haven’t seen it, you may want to give it a try!
By GermanBravesFan
December 22, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this
Thanks, chrisklob!
By Lew
December 22, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this
Braveheart-Dude, I have shirts older than McFann and children damn near old enough to be her parents. Her parents can read the emails if they want. I’m just sending her a Wurlitzer drawing, that’s all. Too old to even consider anything extra curricular. My wife would kill me and besides, I’m too damn old and don’t have enough energy anymore to cope with teens-on much of any level. I dread having to deal with grandchildren. The rest home beckons.
By Lew
December 22, 2007 3:47 PM | Link to this
Overlord-You’re right. Glavine or Smoltz at their advanced age, could get hurt. Just like last year, 32 year old Cardinals’ Cy Young winner Chris Carpenter and 30 year old Mark Mulder went down. Basically it can happen to any team, any pitchers, at any time. Isn’t that a fact of baseball life?
However, as DOB points out, Glav never has hit the DL and Smoltz has been shut down what? Once since he came back from all that TJ surgery 7 or so years ago? Shut down for what? Two weeks, with the All Star break in between? If it hadn’t been for the break, he might not even have been DLed. Dude, just face it. If we had a staff that averaged 24 like the Marlins did, we could still lose the whole bunch to injury, just like the Marlins did. Then you would find something else to worry about.
By David O'Brien
December 22, 2007 3:47 PM | Link to this
Just starting to really digest a lot of the info in the new Bill James Handbook 2008, and found this evaluation of young talent quite interesting.
We’ll get more into it in a later blog, but he has the Braves ranked 16th in the majors for “Young Talent,” meaning quality and quantity of major league players (not prospects) who were 29 or younger in 2007 — and the younger they are the better their ratings, in other words there was more weight given to a player who was 24 and outstanding, as opposed to 28 and outstanding.
His highest-rated Braves were Jeff Francoeur (No. 26) and Kelly Johnson (No. 49). Yes, higher than Brian McCann and Mark Teixeira, who didn’t crack the top 50 (I can only guess that Tex didn’t make the top 50 because he’s 27 (28 in April), while Frenchy is 23 and Kelly 24.
The top 10 were all 24 or younger: 1. Prince Fielder (23), 2. Hanley Ramirez (23), 3. Fausto Carmona (23), 4. David Wright (24), 5. Felix Hernandez (21), 6. Scott Kazmir (23), 7. Jose Reyes (24), 8. Matt Cain (22), 9. Grady Sizemore (24), 10. Cole Hamels (23).
(Just think, if the Mets hadn’t trade Kazmir they’d have three of the first seven on the list.)
Another interesting aspect is that Bill James broke it down by hitters and pitchers, in terms of team ranking. Braves had a total of 1185 points, including 884 for their young hitters and only 301 for pitchers.
The total for hitters ranked the Braves seventh in the majors, behind Milwaukee (1237 points for its hitters), Florida (1181, before No. 13 Miguel Cabrera was traded), Tampa Bay (1072), Colorado (1008), Cleveland (970) and Arizona (930).
What stood out about the Braves’ No. 7 ranking for hitters is that all of those six teams ahead of them were also the top six in overall young talent, including pitchers (though not in the same order; the overall order was No. 1 Colorado, followed by Tampa Bay, Arizona, Florida, Cleveland and MIlwaukee, respectively).
Which obviously points to one thing: Braves have an imbalance in terms of good young major league hitters compared to good young major league pitchers. A lot more quality/quantity in the young hitting department, according to James (and most of us wouldn’t disagree with that assessment, obviously, with a starting rotation that’s topped by two 40-somethings and 32-year-old Tim Hudson).
By chip
December 22, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this
So Dave, I’d like your opinion on two things…
First, what’s left for the Braves to to this off-season?
Second, if you were the GM, how would you resolve those outstanding issues?
My opinion? The Bravos are caught between two thoughts with their starting pitching. They love Smoltzie and Glavine, but those guys are old and could easily break down. They love the potential of the young arms, but those guys are unproven. Given a chance, I’d have traded for a sure-fire starter (Haren) when he was available — cost be damned.
We’ve also got to figure out who’s going to play CF and who is going to play 3B when Chipper gets hurt again (you now it’s going to happen). And, like every other club in the majors, we need a one more good set-up guy. So if you were in charge, what would your moves be?
By David O'Brien
December 22, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this
Just to conclude on that statistical note: Bill James gave the Braves a meager 301 points for their young major league pitching, which ranked 27th in the majors, ahead of only Cincinnati and Houston and just behind St. Louis.
The trade for Jurrjens came after this was tabulated, so that would’ve bumped them up a bit, at least. But still, there’s obviously an imbalance, which the Braves must address at some point before this time next year (and why they made a late run recently at Haren, or at least inquired about what it would take).
Incidentally, Bill James ranks Haren, Blanton and Gaudin all as “Grade A” young pitchers (three members of last year’s Oakland rotation).
The only young Braves he gives a Grade A distinction are Francoeur and K.J., with McCann, Teixeira, Chuck James and Escobar coming in with B’s. (I’m sure that age kept Tex from getting an A, and for Escobar, it was his relative inexperience for a 25-year-old player.)
By McFann
December 22, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this
Thanks, Lew. I’ll e-mail you another picture the next chance I get. We just watched It’s a Wonderful Life (the greatest movie in the world) and we’re getting ready to cut out some cookies, but I’ll be sure to send you another sample. Braveheart is an instigator, that’s for sure. He’s also a dweeb. I tend not to believe to much of what he says. (That’s why I did my own research on the Braves record with McCann in the line-up.)
Now, I don’t know where on EARTH he got the idea that McCann doesn’t have any special abilities. What a jerk!! McCann comes from a baseball family. All that stuff is in his blood. That’s why he’s up here and not stuck down in the minors like his big brother. He’s got lots of ability, and if Braveheart had a few more brains, he’d know that. Who does he think made the All-Star team two years in a row? It wasn’t Francoeur!! Who does he think hit .333 in his first full year in the Bigs? It wasn’t Francoeur!! So maybe McCann hasn’t ever hit 29 homers, but he’s a catcher!! Maybe Johnny Bench could do it, but not every catcher is a Johnny Bench! He never went on the DL last year because, and I quote DOB, “[He] hates to talk about his injuries for fear people will think he’s making excuses. He’s such a good dude, he feels guilty about not being in the lineup, about being hurt.” And it’s not the player that puts himself on the DL. Sure, the player can say, “I’m hurt, I can’t play,” but Mac’s not like that. he doesn’t want to sound like he’s complaining. He said on May second, “It’s baseball. You get nicks everyday. You’ve got to play through them.” Bobby Cox and Chipper said a few times last year that they couldn’t afford to disable him!! Braveheart knows their record with and without McCann. Gee wiz, Braveheart!! Francoeur Superman? Dude, that’s lame.
And I’m NOT FIFTEEN!!!
By AdirondackDave
December 22, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this
I’ve been thinking (hoping) that the Braves up and coming pitchers were ready or nearly ready to give us a solid 4-5 (I’m not counting on anything from Hampton). And then maybe even 2-3 in ‘09 and beyond. If James is right, we are in more trouble than I thought. Too late for Haren but Bedard, even Blanton looks more necessary if not essential if James is right.
By David O'Brien
December 22, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this
Chip, you can’t make a trade “cost be damned” when that cost is your minor league system. Then you end up with a purged system and you can’t make trades in the future. You can make a “cost be damned” if you’re just talkinga bout salary and your owner is willing to raise payroll, but no good GM who sticks around for long is going to make a “cost be damned” trade that purges the minor league system in order to get one starting pitcher, not unless that pitcher is perhaps, say, Greg Maddux in his prime and under contract for 3-4 years.
By the way, how many years you going to say Smoltz can break down at any time? Just look at all the young pitchers who’ve broken down the past three years while we’ve been waiting for Smoltz to break down.
Smoltz is still a better, more reliable starter than at least 18 other major league teams have.
Glavine, yeah, he’s shown some signs of diminished production. But Smoltz? Not really.
By Braveheart
December 22, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this
Oh Lew, chill out, my man. I was just funning with you and McFann.
DOB, yeah, I wasn’t really responding to you talking about the language in Knocked Up. I was more responding to Doc saying it had to do with the limitations of the writer. I think in that movie it was definitely just a more realistic depiction of how dudes talk at that age. But I can understand what Doc is saying about alot of movies that try to be profane for profane’s sake. When I was younger, I didn’t mind. But as I get older, I do find some of it kind of annoying (turning into my pops). Some of these movies mistakenly think that the cussing brings the movie the edge. But Knocked Up wasn’t like that at all for me. It was really just getting into the world of young men and being real about we are/were.
Alright, gotta go.
Merry Christmas everyone.
By McFann
December 22, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this
Yeah, you tell ‘im, Lew!! Good land! Guess Braveheart just added one more “animal” to the mall. : P
I’m getting together a few drawings to e-mail you. BTW, I hope you and your wife get well soon!! I saw your website, too. Oh yeah, you’re a good artist!
By CharlieAlphaBravo
December 22, 2007 4:43 PM | Link to this
Gil: I always enjoy your writing, but in response to your noon post… If you think that something as trivial as adding one or two players to every major league roster is enough to convince the player’s union to install a salary cap, you’re living in lala land with Andruw.
Braveheart: No need to mask your affection for 15-year-old girls by slighting McCann. You’re flirting with her like a 4th Grader.
DOB: Saw Juno at an early screening about three weeks ago and really liked it. The only beef I had was that it seemed to suffer from a dose of DCS. Dawson’s Creek Syndrome — when a high-school character’s dialog sounds like it was written by a thirty-something year-old humorist or linguist. Still a great movie though.
By McFann
December 22, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this
Would anyone get upset if I asked why McCann received a “B”?
Just kidding!! I know…I know…
By McFann
December 22, 2007 5:10 PM | Link to this
You want a good CD from 2007? Check out Josh Groban’s new one, Noel. It’s a really good one!!
By AdirondackDave
December 22, 2007 5:13 PM | Link to this
Gil’s earlier proposal to trade enlarging the active roster to 26-27 for a salary cap makes sense to me and I’m not so sure the union wouldn’t agree now or at some point. The obsenity of some of these salaries probably isn’t lost on the many marginal players who aren’t headed for stardom but who would benefit from additional roster slots to extend their careers. There are a lot of MLB players in that category I would think.
By Patrick
December 22, 2007 5:19 PM | Link to this
DOB,
The Braves still talking with Colorado about Fuentes??
By Lew
December 22, 2007 5:22 PM | Link to this
McFann-Now, Braveheart says much of what he says for effect and because he’s a Pavlovian Disciple, such as I am. You should have seen him in school right around class change time. Those bells really affected him. However, when he decides to be serious and not instigating and provoking responses, he can actually be informative. The trick is to discover which is which-Braveheart or Mini Braveheart, his evil alter ego.
Now Braveheart. You’re being totally unfair. She’s not a day younger than 17 and you know it. Keep pulling her leg and it will be you that will be trodding those halls of lechery, not me. I’m a kindly old grandfatherly type. Think of Santa Claus- If Santa had a pony tail and listened to hard rock.
By Overlord
December 22, 2007 5:25 PM | Link to this
Lew, you are right, both our old pitchers have been working horses their hole careers, but as age improves, slowing down does not comes to table arithmetically, but more of in an exponential way, we all have seen it in maddux, schilling, R. Johnson, Pedro, they have been hit bye injuries or not near as effective as before…… i dont think our guys are supermen.
DOB im glad to read John is doing worrkout and stuff, as days go by they need it even more. It makes me more optimistic, but the possibility grows.
Lew, of course it could happen to any pitcher, but, dont close your eyes, most of the times when it happen to young pitchers its because of bad mechanics or overuse and stuff like that. Glavine and Smoltz have arrived a stage of their careers where even a fly passing through could finish their season.
DOB, im not so sure braves are not counting on Hampton, that could easily be what they say, but deep down anybody that is a braves fan (including owners), is counting on hampton in some way. We all know how different that rotation would look with hampton in there. Without him (even as glavine is there) the year could be a roller coaster like last year.
By Metropolitan Man
December 22, 2007 5:27 PM | Link to this
Man, after reading the Glavine article, I wouldnt be suprised if he threw that last game as a MET. His final parting shot for being a brave at heart. Heres to a sub .500 season you spaghetti arm double agent spy!!!!
By mo in the boonies
December 22, 2007 5:31 PM | Link to this
McFann; I heard Josh Groban on tv last week singing from his Christmas CD, he is good! BTW how old are you?
By Metropolitan Man
December 22, 2007 5:49 PM | Link to this
Heres another report of a retired player (Ex METS favorite) buying PED’s in 2005, 8 years after retirement. We dont know who he was buying it for but for the guys who didnt get caught or mentioned, here lies the route they were taking. Buy the stuff from a former player. No wonder Canseco is so sure A-Rod should have been on the list.
Perhaps the most notable new name to emerge from the affidavit is former Mets pitcher Sid Fernandez, who wrote a $3,500 check to Radomski in 2005, almost eight years after the lefty’s last appearance in a major league game. The affidavit doesn’t say what Fernandez got for his money.
Fernandez may be one of the two former players Mitchell kept out of his report because they had already retired from Major League Baseball at the time they allegedly bought drugs from Radomski
By doc
December 22, 2007 6:01 PM | Link to this
b’heart i was not offended by the movie k’ed up. just thought that it went overboard for the f word especially when it was the smutty mouthed mom that was her sis and her friends who were a bit older than the 23 yr olds that you remarked about. yes realistic to some degree and i assure you i did cuss like a sailor and it took a lot of conscious effort to stop. just meant it wasnt as clever as some and certainly not as funny as superbad. also seems a lot of the younger females got off on it the way i got off on the revelry in superbad. not knokin the movie except it wasnt as clever as some.
gil i hear you on the practical nature of it all and you cant put on your marbles on one guy and that is the problem today you have to be able to spend big on more than one guy and have other folks making a bit of cash as well. if you got to spread it around thin then it cant go to one guy.
sadly the payroll is less than it was whne the braves were the big dogs and other folks have moved up the scale to catch us in the mid tier levels and the big dogs have far exceeded it. can you compete yes but the margin of error is greater to fail. so that is why i think it is a bell weather contract for this new owner and the braves going forward. if they arent careful then we continue to slide as other guys figure it out. yes i realize it doesnt take the yankee payroll to compete but it does help to make it close.
By AdirondackDave
December 22, 2007 6:01 PM | Link to this
Does anybody know if the Braves spring training game schedule is out yet or where I can find it? Thanks.
By Fuxwi Tchaguh
December 22, 2007 6:05 PM | Link to this
That “Teddy Thompson Upfront and Down Low” diddy is that OJ SAMPSAN.
By Fuxwi Tchaguh
December 22, 2007 6:05 PM | Link to this
That “Teddy Thompson Upfront and Down Low” diddy is that OJ SAMPSAN.
By Fuxwi Tchaguh
December 22, 2007 6:05 PM | Link to this
That “Teddy Thompson Upfront and Down Low” diddy is that OJ SAMPSAN.
By Metropolitan Man
December 22, 2007 6:25 PM | Link to this
While your rotation might be set, our pen keeps adding pieces hopefully to save the starting pitching. I know you guys arent aware but our pen might duplicate 06 with: Billy Wagner (if he would pitch and shut up), Scott Schoeneweis (gotta shed the report image), Duaner Sanchez, Jorge Sosa, Pedro Feliciano, Joe Smith,Aaron Heilman,Matt Wise,Juan Padilla and possibly Orlando Hernandez.
Our pen so far seems to mirror your starting pitching. You seem to have the rotation set barring Spring training stats, while your pen still needs to be refined. We need another starting pitcher but the division can be had the way things stand now. 1 more starting pitcher and the Arms are set for the METS.
By doc
December 22, 2007 6:27 PM | Link to this
f…! i meant to say above, of course, margin of error is less to fail.
By McFann
December 22, 2007 6:27 PM | Link to this
Why should I tell you how old I am? What difference does it make?
By Lew
December 22, 2007 6:44 PM | Link to this
MetroDude-Yes, but the problem with our pen is where to put all the pieces. We have way too many good arms. What a problem.
By Gil in Mechanicsville
December 22, 2007 6:46 PM | Link to this
CharlieAlphaBravo The number of players I suggested adding to the rosters is not etched in stone. It is just an idea. I don’t think the owners will allow for much of an increase and would like for the teams to be limited to fewer players and not more. It is a bargaining position. You have to have something that will appeal to the majority of the players. The really big stars can supplement their income with endorsements that would not count against a cap.
Every player seems to think they are going to be the ones to score the big payday but reality is only a small fraction achieve the really big paychecks. The players need to start thinking like a real union and spread the wealth out a bit more plus add opportunities for more players.
I’m not saying I have the answer but if they keep it up none of us will be able to afford to attend a game.
By Robert
December 22, 2007 6:47 PM | Link to this
Sid Fernandez doing PED’s?
Who is next. Rich Garces? Micky Lolich?
Even Bobby Cox wouldnt be STUPID enough to believe that “Fat Sid” was doing PED’s. And lord knows, Donk is mighty stupid
By Metropolitan Man
December 22, 2007 6:53 PM | Link to this
What pieces Lew????? Last time I looked you lost pieces that were affordable and cheap. I think they didnt want to relieve Smolzt and Huddy anymore, too much pressure from the fans to hold the lead. Dont have to worry about holding leads for Glavine, shouldn’t be too many anyway.
By Lew
December 22, 2007 7:07 PM | Link to this
MetroDude-Who exactly are you talking about? Mahay who was with the team for what? Two months-Who just netted an $8 mil contract? Or perhaps Dotel? What did he pitch? 3 games? Or perhaps you mean Ascanio, who was a September call up? Damn, Dude. If you actually think losing Villarreal was a big deal, you need to rethink your stance. It would help if you had a clue what you were talking about before you opened your mouth. If you think so highly of Wickman, I think he’s available. We’ve got about nine pitchers for seven spots in the pen, not counting Gonzalez, who should return mid season and two of our surplus of starters who are likely to see relief duty, as well. Don’t have any idea what team you’re talking about, but it sure as hell ain’t the Braves.
By Bobbymahlon
December 22, 2007 7:13 PM | Link to this
All you guys wanting to get CoCo Crisp are out in left field. He is a good fielder but not much with the bat. We can come up with at least or better than him from our own pool of players and not spend any money. As far as us ever signing Tex forget it because Boras will never let anybody but the Yanks sign him. We have to hope that Thorman or somebody else can come up through the minors and partially fill his shoes.
By Robert
December 22, 2007 7:16 PM | Link to this
“Bedard, who’ll be 29 in March, was 13-5 with a career-best 2.71 ERA and franchise-record 221 strikeouts in 182 innings in 2007”
But of course Leo Mazzone should get no credit for that. Cuz Leo was nothing. It’s all Donk
Right?
By Lew
December 22, 2007 7:17 PM | Link to this
MetroDude-Before you put your size twelves any further down your throat, maybe there’s another point you need to think out. Our relievers have to bale out Smoltz, Hudson and Glavine too much? Dude, are you aware that the Mets do not have a pitcher on their active roster that pitched 200 innings last year (hint-the only one you had signed with the Braves)? Did you realize that Maine was the closest at 191 IP? Do you also realize that all three of our starters who you felt compelled to talk absurdities about all pitched over 200 Innings? Maybe you need to rethink exactly whose bullpen will be overused. Statistically, it your’s-not ours.
By AdirondackDave
December 22, 2007 7:19 PM | Link to this
Metroman — Logic and history suggest you are wrong about Glavine not having many leads to hold but please remember to make that statement again next October. Should be good for a nice round of laughs. I’ll let somebody else refute your comments on our bullpen. I can’t remember the names of all the guys we don’t have room for but want to keep who are out of options!
By McFann
December 22, 2007 7:22 PM | Link to this
Hey, Robert, Bobby Cox is NOT stupid!! He’s a great man. Gee wiz!! Why do people despise Bobby so much? Or is it because he “only won one World Series”? Well, guess what? That’s not the manager’s fault!! He can put guys in, but he can’t control their performance!!
MetroMan, “affordable and cheap”? Is that like, the opposite of “expensive and overpriced?” And you spelled Smoltz wrong, dummy.
By fuxwichaguh
December 22, 2007 7:24 PM | Link to this
That is th\at OJ. Tru Dat.
By AdirondackDave
December 22, 2007 7:29 PM | Link to this
BobbyM — A little overly dismal on your view of first base. Tex may or may not resign but you can be sure they are going to work up a competitive proposal for him to consider. He’ll end up around $20-$22M probably, perhaps from several clubs, he deserves it. I’m not writing the Braves out of this one. They’ve done creative contracting in the past and could here as well to keep him.
By Lew
December 22, 2007 7:31 PM | Link to this
Robert-Just WTF does Bobby Cox have to do with a conversation about Eric Bedard? Your reach has outdistanced your grasp-yet again. You having a Twinkie deficiency again? Maybe I can Grinch to bring you one.
By McFann
December 22, 2007 7:36 PM | Link to this
MetroMan!! It’s awful! I just saw a post of yours and you forgot to type Mets in all capitals!! What a catastrophe!!
By Lew
December 22, 2007 7:39 PM | Link to this
Adirondack Dave-For seven bullpen spots-Soriano, Moylan, Yates, Ring, Ohman, Acosta, Boyer, Devine, Stockman, Resop-not to mention Gonzo coming back, or possibly one or two of James, Bennett, Carlyle, Morton or Anthony Lerew, or even dark horses such as Cuevas. No, MetroDude is right. Can’t possibly put together a pen out of that group.
By Robert
December 22, 2007 7:39 PM | Link to this
Whatever happened to Grinch?
Havent seen him around in a while
By AdirondackDave
December 22, 2007 7:40 PM | Link to this
this is a test
By Lew
December 22, 2007 7:51 PM | Link to this
Robert-Grinch Just finished school and has out of town company for the holidays. Plus his Dad just had surgery.
By AdirondackDave
December 22, 2007 7:53 PM | Link to this
Lew - Thanks for the bullpen list. Don’t know why I can remember watching Denny McLain on tv winning his 30th in 1968 but can’t remember most of the guys in the pen.
By Metropolitan Man
December 22, 2007 7:57 PM | Link to this
Glad you feel that way Lew. Wish I could see your face by the All-Star break. The releivers you relish are questionable at best. Not having Goanzalez at the begigning of the season will be costly. The METS starters wont have to pitch 200 innings. Getting 15 wins and 191 will get it done. But I digress, count on your AARP starting rotation and let you depleted bullpen blow those games they leave with the lead. All I know is a pen will get you to the dance, starting pitchers get you laid in the playoffs.
By TennesseePaul
December 22, 2007 7:58 PM | Link to this
Just got back East. This one’s for you Lew.
Payroll. Payroll. Payroll.
Scoots covered it well Lew. The Braves will need pitching in the future. Not all these young guys are going to be good. Most of them will be bad. They’ll turn out like Davies. When ever we do get that next top tier pitcher it’ll cost money and/or prospects. It’s unavoidable.
[Haren] would also have been an unacceptable depletion of our farm system for a lot less return than many seem to think he would have brought.
I don’t know Lew, Smoltz, Hudson, Haren would have been a masterful rotation. It would project to a much better chance of winning a WS. That’s one helluva return. Best return in baseball if I recall.
Mind the jokes now Lew. Not all I type is seriousness.
C’est la vi.
By Roman Gal
December 22, 2007 7:59 PM | Link to this
Lew, another dark horse could be Sung Ki Jung. Of course, he is right-handed…but could be good if someone (or lots of someones) gets hurt.
By David O'Brien
December 22, 2007 8:03 PM | Link to this
MetroMan, your 6:53 post is your all-time worst, which is really saying something.
By chrisklob
December 22, 2007 8:19 PM | Link to this
Shut UP, Robert.
By CharlieAlphaBravo
December 22, 2007 8:25 PM | Link to this
Gil: You’re absoulutely right. I don’t think two extra spots would be enough, and there would also have to be many other stipulations for the union to even consider it, but it is a good bargaining point. The problem is that although the high salaries only immidiately benefit the ones receiving the paycheck, eventually it trickles down to raise the minimum paycheck for all Major League players. In the often secretive world of baseball economics, the astronomical prices owners are willing to pay for players like A-Rod and Santana usually end up loosening the purse strings for all their players… Santana demands $25 million a year, so Carlos Silva signs a $48 million deal. If a salary cap were to be introduced, there’s no way the player’s union would allow a smaller percentage of baseball’s revenue to go to the players, so there would have to be some sort of revenue-sharing deal established. In this system, high-revenue producing teams like Boston and New York would essentially be paying the salaries of less profitable teams’ players in order to produce a level playing field. And the Yanks and Sox might have something to say about that. I think it’s very unlikely that there will ever be any complete salary cap installed in the MLB, but at the rate salaries are exploding, there may have to be some sort of moderate controls put in place, but even that would have to deal with the mammoth boulder in the road that is the player’s union. I appreciate the benefits of a salary cap league like the NFL, but personally, I prefer that the MLB stays like it is. It’s not a perfect system, but it reflects America’s (relative) free market economy in this respect. The teams that produce the most revenue sign the best players. It’s easy to hate Wal-Mart, but you’ve never shopped there? It wouldn’t be so easy to hate the Yankees if it wasn’t so much fun to hate the Yankees…
By CharlieAlphaBravo
December 22, 2007 8:33 PM | Link to this
Just saw that Vegas commercial where the dude has the receptionist send a wake-up call to his cell phone… Exactly which model cell phone does he have that doesn’t have an alarm clock??? I guess some people just like to brag to random people about getting laid… Even if they have to pay for it in Vegas…
By Metropolitan Man
December 22, 2007 8:57 PM | Link to this
DOB, like your fans weren’t crying foul everytime someone from the pen blew a Smoltz (Smutts) or Huddy win. Give me a break. I’ll take our balanced staff of vets and PROVEN young stars over your vets and questionable journeymen any season. You guys asked so many questions here about your team like its complete. Where is your centerfielder and please tell me your going again with Mcdowell as the pitching coach? That alone and reading the vent lets me know you guys are going back to the 80’s.
By Metropolitan Man
December 22, 2007 9:15 PM | Link to this
Gone: Ascanio is an intriguing 22-year-old right-hander, but he is nothing more than a middle reliever.
Affordable but left….payroll still a problem???
Paronto was 3-1 with a 3.57 ERA in 41 games last season. He was a decent middle reliever, but he was a victim of numbers after the season and was cut by the Braves. Guess you didnt need him anymore.
After being picked in the Rule-5 draft Valenzuela, 23, must remain on the Reds’ 25-man roster all season or be offered back to the Braves for cash. The Reds might take a look at him as a potential No. 5 starter. Could have joined the group of journeymen you have now and he is young.
Oscar Villarreal…no need to say more.
By Lew
December 22, 2007 9:20 PM | Link to this
MetroDude-Balanced Staff of Disabled List veterans is much closer to the mark. What proven young stars are you referring to? Humber and Pelfrey? Proven to be less than what you expected them to be is what they are.
Keep running with your delusion, if it makes you sleep better, MetroDude. I’m sure we won’t tell you we told you so when ElDuque and Pedro spend half the year injured yet again. Or Moises Alou. Or DelGado. Or Castillo. Or Sanchez.
Oh yeah. I forgot. David Wright could win the peace in the MidEast all on his own. How in the world did I overlook that? Besides. You have Jorge Sosa, too. That should definitely swing the balance of power. Maybe Wright can find that mythical money we keep hearing the Mets have but haven’t spent in almost two years. No telling what else that has been missing he might find when he hits the Desert, either. Right?
By Metropolitan Man
December 22, 2007 9:22 PM | Link to this
Just knowing that you lost a starting SS and CF, and didnt upgrade either position lets me know you guys are in for a long season. More adding by subtracting I guess. Cant wait to see the fans reaction to the boatlaods of errors and no run production from these positions. Better hope your 2B can have a career year. Your only source of power is 1b, RF, and 3b when the bum takes his pain medicine.
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 22, 2007 9:22 PM | Link to this
Dear metro monkey , keep talking. Please keep talking. Stupidity has a way of revealing itself months later , after the season has been played and I have reposted your idiotic rants for everybody to laugh at.
By Lew
December 22, 2007 9:24 PM | Link to this
RomanGal-Sung may well be a force in another year or so, but I’m not so sure right now, especially since we are so deep with guys who have no options left. He hasn’t pitched above A ball yet. He sure looks damn good, though.
By Metropolitan Man
December 22, 2007 9:29 PM | Link to this
Man, your GM couldnt even land Jim Edmonds who was traded for a minor league 3rd basemen.
By Lew
December 22, 2007 9:34 PM | Link to this
MetroMan-What journeymen in the bullpen are you talking about? Ohman?
Soriano is barely arbitration eligible. Yates is hardly an old man. Moylan is in his second year. Stockman, Boyer and Devine are just coming up and are under our contractual control for years yet.
As for starters-Jurrjens is a rookie. Bennett is a rookie, James has pitched in the bigs for 1 1/2 years. Reyes is quite possibly still a rookie. Morton is a rookie. How in the hell do you get journeymen out of that. And one more point Metro Dude-The Braves still have a farm system producing players. The Mets? Not so much.
By Lew
December 22, 2007 9:42 PM | Link to this
Jim Edmonds was not landed because no one thought he was worth the effort, or the cost of a minor leaguer for a player who misses 50 games a year and makes $10 million for little production. Not because we have an incapable GM-just one too smart to make a ridiculous deal like that.
BTW MetroMoron- As for the defense in center field. Yes, Andruw was great, but all of our options are quite excellent on defense-likely better than Beltran is on your own ancient team. As for Andruw’s lost offense. What? Replace a .222 BA with someone who can actually beat out a ground ball?
By chrisklob
December 22, 2007 9:44 PM | Link to this
SHUT UP ROBERT.
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 22, 2007 9:49 PM | Link to this
The real Donk manager. Read this entry by Dave O’Brien from back in March. Neither Detroit or Atlanta made the playoffs in 2007.
By David O’Brien
March 27, 2007 10:00 PM | Link to this
Jim Leyland on the Braves: “They look really good. They look to me like they’ve got a hell of a team. They improved their pitching. They’re going to be back right in the thick of it. You can tell that. They’ve got a good team.”
By Yars
December 22, 2007 9:50 PM | Link to this
DOB….I didn’t see the Hives album on your top 50 list. Also, I can’t help but ask…Miranda Lambert? I’m not a big fan of today’s country music scene, but is her album any good?
By Greg in TN
December 22, 2007 9:52 PM | Link to this
Evening everyone…
Taking a little break from wrapping Christmas presents for the missus (not to say my feeble attempts at doing this actually could be mistaken for wrapping, but I digress) and checking out DOB’s latest and greatest.
First, need to get this out of the way, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you and yours, friends.
DOB touched on a great baseball truth, pitching… is… expensive…
After seeing what the Snakes gave up to get Dan Haren from the A’s, I can’t see how the Braves could get a similar deal done without giving up a considerable amount of what I feel will be a promising group of position players. I just don’t see it folks. Addition by subtraction on that kind of scale doesn’t make a lot of sense to this denizen.
I’ve enjoyed the year plus that I’ve been coming to the Braves/MIB blog and breaking the bread of baseball with each of the regulars. Thank you one and all. I look forward to following 2008 with each of you. And DOB, thanks once again for being the Notorious one. I truly enjoy reading what you write (as well as Carroll when she pitch hits) and everyone’s responses.
Now back to that wrapping…
By Metropolitan Man
December 22, 2007 9:55 PM | Link to this
Lew, like the METS you find out how deep your farm is when trade talks come around. Oh the METS money is not what us METS fans thought it would be thanks to CITI FIELD. Yes it is apparent that until that stadium is erected, the money wont be spent as lasvishly as us METS fans would like.
Oh, and the young proven stars I’m referring to both won 15 games last year and are only 26. Hubner and Pelfrey have work to do. Lets see 2 old guys (Pedro, Duque), 2 young winners (Maine, Perez), and 2 question marks (Pelfry, Hubner) against Smoltz (gamer) Glavine (who knows what you will get) Huddy (trying to make it in the NL after dominating the AL), and the rest is a crap shoot!!!
By chrisklob
December 22, 2007 9:55 PM | Link to this
NO you idiot. Look at my name and you’ll see how it’s spelled.
It’s not that I “love Donk so much”. I am, as most of us here, very aware of his abilities and limitations. However, you are the ONLY one that obsesses about him. Somehow, in every post you find a way to find fault with Cox.
I’ll bet you think the mortgage crisis is Cox’s fault.
Do you blame Cox for the war in Iraq?
How about global warming, is that his fault too?
By Metropolitan Man
December 22, 2007 9:59 PM | Link to this
Lew, the batting average is a given, how did you replace those homers and rbi’s genius?????
By Metropolitan Man
December 22, 2007 10:06 PM | Link to this
These two need a room:
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0d2G3AU7lIgqu/340x.jpg
Whats going on at the TED????
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 22, 2007 10:10 PM | Link to this
By Shaun
March 28, 2007 8:39 AM | Link to this
Morning, all. I promise, no Red Sox talk.
All the “experts” seem to be picking the Mets. I’m more concerned about the Phillies. I mean, they are obviously one of the best offensive teams and they probably have the most starting pitching depth.
Yes, I am still saying the back end of the Braves rotation and the bullpen outside of the Big Three is what would cause trouble for them, if there is anything.
I think the difference between the Braves being a pretty good team that could contend for the Wild Card and a division title contender is one more starter stepping up (Davies?) and one more reliever stepping up (McBride?) to be pretty significantly above average.
I do think Kelly Johnson and Scott Thorman are going to be better than a lot of people think. Prediction: By a month, month-and-a-half into the season, fans are going to fall in love with Kelly Johnson as the leadoff hitter and second baseman.
Coach : This is real genius at work here , folks. Shaun was way ahead of the curve.
By Overlord
December 22, 2007 10:17 PM | Link to this
Chrisklob, as a matter of fact Cox is a huge global warming factor. He makes millions and millions of people around the world destroy their TV sets in desperation, then we all need new TV sets, that contributes to global warming. He also makes us go take cold showers several times a game in order to cool down our heads. He also finds a way to prolong games 3 or 4 innings only to finally find a way to lose after wasting millions of Watts on stadium illumination.
sorry………im bored………..hehe.
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 22, 2007 10:32 PM | Link to this
Ya’ll can read this jewel from Wayne in Utah that is every bit as relevant right now as it was ten months ago.
By Wayne in UT
March 28, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this
Mets Fans on a Braves blog:
Diagnosis: Rectal Cranial Inversion
Cure: A John Deere solution.
By Metropolitan Man
December 22, 2007 10:38 PM | Link to this
Did Glavine recieve a no trade clause becasue he needs one?????
By BossLady
December 22, 2007 10:43 PM | Link to this
Why in the world would Glavine throw a game? His pride and honor is too important to him than any reason imagined. That’s another reason for his getting out of New York, you guys did not know the man.
Merry Christmas and a Prosperous New Year!
By Metropolitan Man
December 22, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this
After 5 years of mediocrity, no METS fan wanted to know anymore of Glavine. He said it perfectly in the article, his mind was made up and he pitched the last game like a man who didnt care!!! Make sure you guys give him his baby asprin.
By Yars
December 22, 2007 11:13 PM | Link to this
I hope Bobby doesn’t put KJ in the lead off spot. I think he can put up better numbers hitting in the #2, #5, or #7 spot in the lineup. I’m guessing whoever wins the CF job, especially if it’s Anderson, will hit lead off. I also think Yunel may be hitting in the #2 hole. Of course, it’s way too early to speculate the lineup, but it could resemble this:
Whoever wins CF job
Yunel or KJ
Chipper
Tex
Frenchy
McCann
KJ or Yunel
Diaz/B. Jones
SP
Will it benefit Chipper more if KJ hits #2, or Yunel? KJ will take more pitches than Yunel, & draw a lot more walks.
By Robert
December 22, 2007 11:17 PM | Link to this
Coach - Regarding Leyland’s comments - the Braves finished 5 games out of a playoff spot. They were on the periphery. If their manager had been halfway decent, they’d have been in the thick of it. And if their manager had actually been GOOD, they’d have won the division going away
Is the mortgage crisis Cox’s fault? Locally maybe. The value of those condos down by the stadium might be affected by the smell of manure coming from the Braves dugout.
By Overlord
December 22, 2007 11:18 PM | Link to this
Its funny to read some crying babys write about glavine over and over again. Is it possible some of them are afraid he will help braves put the mets where they belong once again? Instead of talking with respect for the man since he gave tons of wins for them, maybe the mets pitch with the most wins the 4 or 5 years he was there. It clearly shows the lack of class some mets fans have, and they not only lack of it, but they are so proud of it they come here and do whatever is in their hands to show it to the anyone who reads this blog. One word———- AMAZING!!!!!!!
By Braveheart
December 22, 2007 11:25 PM | Link to this
After 5 years of mediocrity, no METS fan wanted to know anymore of Glavine.
The Mets were 42-24 in Glavine’s starts the last 2 seasons. That is a .636 winning %. That is a 103 win pace over 162.
The Mets were 143-114 when Glavine did not start the last 2 seasons. That is a .556 winning %. That is a 90 win pace.
Yeah, you’re glad to see him gone.
By chrisklob
December 22, 2007 11:27 PM | Link to this
No Robert, you are the dyslexic idiot. That’s not the only kind of idiot you are but in the interest of holiday spirit I will spare the rest of the readers of this blog.
By the way, this is the first time that you have ever acknowledged my, or any, criticism towards you. Nice of you to finally “man up.” Your posts have been so consistent in your disdain towards BC that I was actually beginning to believe that “Robert” was actually the product of some sort of crazy computer program the ajc had to create actual posts criticizing Cox. Glad to know you’re a real living, breathing human being.
Unless, of course, your’re actually Robert 2.1, with artificial intelligence capabilities.
By CharlieAlphaBravo
December 23, 2007 12:05 AM | Link to this
Wow… They only come out at night…
By brian
December 23, 2007 12:18 AM | Link to this
MetroMan - the picture you are referring to is a congratulatory hug after a win. The reason you do not know what it is is because the Mets forgot how to win at the end of the season. Nice choke.
And why the Glavine hating? Sure he faded over his last 3 starts but look at what he did during his stay in NY. Did he ever say one thing bad about NY? No! Glavine is a class act (something else you probably don’t understand)
By Jared
December 23, 2007 12:21 AM | Link to this
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics: even if you win, you’re still retarded.
By Roman Gal
December 23, 2007 12:30 AM | Link to this
Unless, of course, your’re actually Robert 2.1, with artificial intelligence capabilities Chrisklob
Dont you know that I am actually three Berry College co-eds? Robert
So Robert, you are three co-eds from Berry College entitled Robert 2.1? That’s interesting. Which part of you is the .1 part? Just curious…
By Roman Gal
December 23, 2007 12:33 AM | Link to this
Arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics: even if you win, you’re still retarded. -Jared
Nice one, Jared. Wrong, but still very nice.
By Roman Gal
December 23, 2007 1:02 AM | Link to this
Robert, I’m sure no one would mind if you got banned.
By BosnianBaller
December 23, 2007 1:59 AM | Link to this
Response to da the 9:49 post.What do you expect Leyland to say in that situation?He isn’t going to say the braves pitching sucks b/c that would create problems.
By uscguyjd
December 23, 2007 2:56 AM | Link to this
ZING! Your 11:25 PM post sure shut him up Braveheart. Nice One!
By Randy S
December 23, 2007 4:07 AM | Link to this
Metropolitan Man - How can you mention Scott Schoeneweis in any sort of positive manner? He has had ONE year of his NINE year career with an ERA below 4 and was one of the Mets worst relievers last year. Yet he is a “piece” of this formidable bullpen while the pitcher that led your team in innings (whom you wholly dismiss) has moved South. Come on, this is too easy.
By dragrace79
December 23, 2007 4:33 AM | Link to this
my birth certificate says my name is robert. now i would like to formally change it..
By dragrace79
December 23, 2007 4:42 AM | Link to this
robert’s secret identity is gary matthews jr. he is still bitter about not making the roster a few years back. he missed his potential, but its hard to live up to being the second coming of brad komminsk.
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 23, 2007 7:44 AM | Link to this
It’s a slow day for baseball news and I thought a fantasy trade just might get the blog going.
First , three teams in this one. The Twins , Red Sox and Braves.
We all know about the ongoing negotiations concerning Johan Santana. Nobody wants to give in among the Yankees , Red Sox and Twins. That needs to change and fast.
The Twins new GM , Bill Smith isn’t going to get all the players that he wants , period. So , why not go for quantity or quality , after all , the Twins know they are not going to the playoffs in 2008. Not with the Red Sox , Yankees , Tigers and Indians in the way. NOT HAPPENING Twinkies !!
Instead of haggling over Jon Lester and Jacoby Ellbury , just forget both and ask for the farm.
Start with Coco Crisp and include Clay Buchholz , Justin Masterson , Jed Lowrie , Michael Bowden and Nick Hagadone. After all , the Orioles received five players for Miguel Tejada and this is Johan Santana we are talking about trading.
Then flip CF Coco Crisp and LP Jose Mijares to the Braves for a package of players including RP Jeff Bennett , CF Gregor Blanco , LF/DH Matt Diaz and 3B/2B Martin Prado.
Why this trade , you ask ? Well , the Red Sox end up with the best rotation in baseball.
The Twins end up with NINE players (four of which are 1st round picks). Five are pitchers , Two are infielders and two are outfielders while trading just two players.
The Twins end up with a depth chart of starters consisting of Boof Bonser , Clay Buchholz , Francisco Liriano , Scott Baker , Kevin Slowey , Jeff Bennett , Michael Bowden , Justin Masterson and Nick Hagadone.
Diaz becomes the Twins DH. Blanco gets a real chance to start in CF and Prado provides depth and defense on the Twins infield.
The Braves get the veteran CF (Crisp) they need and a hard throwing young lefty for the bullpen(Jose Mijares has a mid-90’s fastball , slider , change up and curveball).
Diaz is gone , opening up left field for Brandon Jones. Crisp is in CF with Josh Anderson splitting time between both positions as the back up just like Willie Harris did in 2007 and Francoeur keeps doing his iron man thing in RF.
Prado was buried behind five infielders anyway and had little chance of making the team and with Crisp , Gregor Blanco wouldn’t be needed.
Just another of my crazy fantasy trades that will never happen. It makes too much damn sense.
By KD
December 23, 2007 7:52 AM | Link to this
DOB: Saw Arcade Fire on Austin City Limits, and was mesmerized. Any chance that performance might be released on DVD sometime?
By Bob Nagel
December 23, 2007 8:43 AM | Link to this
Obrien: Even an Irishman named Murphy would cringe at having to work for a company that supports the worst of the worst as the Baseball Commissioner in Steroid Bud.Ever thought about a “dog fighting” column maybe? BN
By Overlord
December 23, 2007 8:54 AM | Link to this
Yars, Yunel MUST hit in the number #2 spot, that is as clear as chipper hitting 3 and Tex hitting 4th.
And i would like Diaz 7th and KJ 8th, he is the best guy to hit 8th on the team, that could even be considered if Jones is playing instead of Diaz (as you mentioned in you projected lineup).
By JC FROM UT
December 23, 2007 9:29 AM | Link to this
DOB: In your opinion what would it take to get Eric Bedard? I believe he is under team control for the next two seasons, therefor insuring he would be here at least that long. I would consider a package of Jojo Reyes or Chuck James, Gorky Hernandez, Scott Thorman and Clint Sammons. These ar all players that Baltimore could use to build around and also players who could be considered expendable by Atlanta. What do you think?
By Mr. J
December 23, 2007 9:34 AM | Link to this
Overlord,
I disagree. I think KJ is probably the worst option for the Braves batting 8th. KJ’s strength is his patience and ability to take a close pitch. This becomes useless without a strong offensive force batting behind him. Why on earth would you want to bat him in front of the pitcher?
By Lew
December 23, 2007 9:54 AM | Link to this
Bob Nagel-Huh?
By Robert
December 23, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this
A simple yes or no question for Shaun, chriskolb, and Coach
Did any of you guys ever play pro baseball at any level?
By DaveinZona
December 23, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this
Great article by Carroll Rogers covering Tom Glavine and his family on the Braves page of AJC.
By Braveheart
December 23, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this
And if their manager had actually been GOOD, they’d have won the division going away
Going away? How exactly Robert? How could Cox do that with such a horrendous pitching staff?
Redman - 21.7 innings, 28 ER, 11.61 ERA
Davies - 86 innings, 55 ER, 5.76 ERA
JoJo - 50.7 IP, 35 ER, 6.21 ERA
Cormier - 45.7 IP, 36 ER, 7.09 ERA
Larew - 11.7 IP, 10 ER, 7.69 ERA
Buddy Carlyle (excluding the run from June 25 ‘til July 15) - 78 IP, 57 ER, 6.58 ERA
Chuck James (July 31 ‘til end) - 44.7 IP, 30 ER, 6.04 ERA
Tim Hudson (August 9th ‘til end) - 45.7 IP, 22 ER, 4.33 ERA
Add ‘em all up, and the Braves had 76 wasted starts from their starters (almost half the damn season) and had a record of 31-45 in those 76 starts with a horrendous ERA of 6.40, 273 ER in 384 IP, and an average of 5.05 IP per start.
In the other 86 starts of Braves starters, the Braves were 53-33 with a 3.04 ERA, 533 IP, only 180 ER, and 6.20 IP per start.
Cox made alot of mistakes last year but I don’t know how you blame the manager for his pitchers being horrendous for half the damn season. That sounds more like a problem created by the GM, the pitching coach, the scouts, poor drafting of pitchers, poor player development of pitchers down in the minors, and, oh yeah, most of all, the pitchers just sucking.
It gets even worse. If you don’t include Hudson’s numbers in the bad category after AUgust 9th (because they were not all that bad except for the Braves being 2-5 during those 7 starts), then the bottom of the rotation last year pitched 338.5 innings in 70 starts, had a record of 29-41 with an absolutely frightening 6.67 ERA and 4.84 IP per start.
How the f#@$@ is a manager supposed to win when his crappy starting pitchers go out there and pitch only 4.84 innings per start and have a 6.67 ERA during those 70 starts? It’s almost half the damn season down the freaking drain. What’s rather amazing is that they could manage to win 29 of those 70 games with starting pitching like that. Credit the offense, the bullpen, and a little bit of credit has to go to Cox for making do with the mountain of crap he was handed in his starting rotation.
By chrisklob
December 23, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this
Braveheart, did you not get the memo that Bobby Cox is the cause of all of the Braves problems? As soon as Bobby is gone, there will be no more hunger, world peace will finally be realized, and global warming will cease. Oh, and payroll will be raised to $100 billion and they’ll never lose another game.
Rebort, what does that question have to do with anything?
By Metropolitan Man
December 23, 2007 11:31 AM | Link to this
Wow, now everyone loves Glavine again, what a suprise. Lets see how long you root for the former traitor.
By Jeff R
December 23, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this
As mentioned in a previous DOB blog, had the Braves held their fire on acquiring Tex, they would have had a bigger pool of prospect talent to draw on to acquire the likes of Haren. Pitchers, more so than hitters, get teams to post-season, and Haren, a younger, consistently good arm, would have been an important addition to the pitching staff. The $20 million per year that DOB reports he’ll fetch come next contract is well worth it when you consider today’s market and a better value than the approximately $20 million per annum the Braves will have to shell out to retain Tex (if they can outbid the Yankees, which is very doubtful). And is a first baseman, even one as super as Tex, worth the sort of money it will take to retain his services?
As to team payroll, the approximately $90 million the Braves are paying annually is a welcome increase over recent previous seasons, but not nearly what it should be for a game flush in revenues and a market Atlanta’s size.
One more thing about Tex. Expect his option year to be a monster year. He’ll put up some incredible numbers. Expect the Braves to make a serious run at signing him, but up against the Yankees, good luck. Braves fans need to hope that Tex’s wife really wants to stay close to her family in Atlanta.
So, if the Tex sweepstakes plays out as a lot of observers think it will, Tex will have been a heckuva an expensive rental.
By Braveheart
December 23, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this
We all like to talk about whether the corporate cheapskate owners need to invest more in the team or the fans need to invest more in the team. But do we ever fully appreciate that Chipper and Smoltz perhaps have invested more financially in the team than anyone?
Smoltz has been making $8 million for the past 5 or 6 years when he could have been making about twice that the entire time. Smoltz probably cost himself around $40 to $50 million dollars. Even now, he is making $13 million when he could be making $20 million if he put himself out on the open market.
Chipper has been making $11 to $13 million the last 5 or 6 years when he could and should be making over $20 million a year.
AROD has been earning more than twice what Chipper makes the entire time. Chipper has a higher batting average and a higher OBP than AROD. Chipper’s OPS for his career is only 18 points less than Arod. Chipper’s OPS+ for his career is 143. Arod’s OPS+ for his career is 147.
But to this point in their careers Arod has made $170 million and Chipper has made $105 million. Some of that had to do with Arod hitting the free agent market at 25 years old but it also had to do with Chipper taking hometown discounts.
Arod will probably finish his career having made over $500 million and Chipper will have to “settle” for making about $150 to $160 million in his career.
By the end of his career, Chipper will probably have shortchanged himself $75 to $100 million dollars in order to stay a Brave throughout his career. Think about that the next time you wanna cry about a ballplayer in his mid thirties getting injured.
By the end of their careers, Smoltz and Chipper combined will have probably left $150 to $200 million on the table that should be in their bank accounts.
Sounds kinda foolish if you ask me. But then again money isn’t everything.
By Overlord
December 23, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this
Mr J, I think KJ has learned to be patient. And i Think he will be even more patient next year. But maybe you are right. What is clear to me is that yunels talent shouldnt be wasted down in the lineup. He must bat in the 1st inning. Maybe KJ could be 7th and Diaz 8th.
By Jeff R
December 23, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, good points, but those guys are the exceptions, not the rule, in the game today. Tex is a big X Factor right now. He may choose reasons other than money to resign with the Braves or go elsewhere, but, odds are, money will talk, especially with Boras as his agent.
By Braveheart
December 23, 2007 12:35 PM | Link to this
Per 650 at bats:
*Arod: .306 AVG, .389 OBP, .578 SLG, 133 runs, 199 hits, 35 doubles, 2 triples, 46 homers, 133 RBIs, 23 stolen bases, 81 walks.
Chipper: .307 AVG, .403 OBP, .546 SLG, 122 runs, 200 hits, 40 doubles, 3 triples, 36 homers, 122 RBIs, 13 stolen bases, 109 walks.
Plus, Arod has had the benefit of hitting in the monstrous Yankees lineup the last 4 years and had the benefit of hitting in hitter’s parks like the Kingdome and the field in Texas.
The only real difference is that Arod has 10 more homers which leads to about 10 more runs scored and 10 more RBIs. And Chipper walks about 28 more times per 650 at bats than Arod.
That right there should kill any and all doubt that we are watching one of the best third baseman to ever play the game down at the Ted. Hoss is a HOFer without a doubt.
By Lew
December 23, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this
ChrisKlob-Bobby Cox as the Anti-David Wright?
By Overlord
December 23, 2007 1:27 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, i dont think your way to say it is the most accurate. Chipper is not one of the best 3B to ever play at the in atlanta. He is not only one of the best ever to play at 3B. He is one of the best players ever. And he is the best position player ever to put on a braves uniform for more than 10 years in a row, with the exception on hank.
By mo in the boonies
December 23, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this
McFann, the difference it makes in how old you are, is that maybe you are too young to participate in a blog where grown men sometimes use language that a nice Catholic young girl shouldn’t be reading….and you are telling people on here you are a girl, and although it undoubtedly was safe to give your email and snail mail address to Lew, it is certainly not alright to be handing it out on the internet. I hope your computer is out in the open with rest of the family around, and not in your room. There are too many perverts out there to worry about. I have a grandson about your age, and I worry all the time about him on the internet, I would worry even more if he were a girl. And I’m sure your parents feel the same way. You seem to be a very intelligent person from the way you write grammatically on here, but it is better to be safe than sorry. I realize you are interested in talking about baseball, but do be careful.
And fellows on the board please remember we have a youngster on the board when you post.
I haven’t had time to read the rest of the posts, so I’ll read them and be back later.
By Metropolitan Man
December 23, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this
Excuse me,I tried to come in and blog and just got Chumper dung slung all my monitor.
Best player ever…..I guess some TV’s only show braves baseball.
By Roman Gal
December 23, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this
mo in the boonies I have a feeling there are a lot of young people on this blog. If you pay close attention sometimes people drop hints as to what age group they fall into.
I believe that in the past few years, there has been a youth movement in Braves fans. I know a lot more people my age who are HUGE Braves fans and go to many, many games, than people who are middle-aged or older. A cause? Probably the Baby Braves in ‘05. Youth movement = Youth movement. Does this make sense?
McFann It doesn’t matter how old you are. As long as you are here to talk baseball. If I remember correctly, we have a 15 year old named Austin. He is a very astute young fellow. There is nothing to be ashamed of…just because you are younger than some of the regulars on here doesn’t mean you can’t hang with them. But be careful or they will start calling you McFanny. Just messin’. Hope you have a Merry Christmas.
By Metropolitan Man
December 23, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this
Finally found a gift for the wonderful brave bloggers who hate the METS. Now we can take you for a walk. Before you jump of the deep end, think of all the mean and crazy things you have said about the METS and their fans and find your sense of humor!!!!
http://www.legendsareforever.com/Atlanta-Braves-Adjustable-Dog-Collar—Mediump564-7504.html
By Overlord
December 23, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this
I can smell some jealousy aroung coming from NY.
Maybe if they keep praying Wright will finish somewhere near Chippers numbers 15 years from now.
By the way……..ready to start a new run??? 0 down, 14 more to go.
By mo in the boonies
December 23, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this
RomanGal I have no objection to having young people on here, I’m glad there is a “youth movement” in baseball. I just want the younger ones to be safe rather than sorry. Ok?
By Shaun Payne
December 23, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this
Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008), thanks for the compliments. I just pay attention to the things that I think most people should. Don’t think there’s really anything genius about that—it’s just refusing to be intellectually lazy, putting 2 and 2 together when some people just refuse to, and knowing who the real geniuses are and are not.
Robert, never played pro ball. High school was my highest level and I wasn’t really all that great (I was a pretty good defensive second baseman but I was small and weak for my age; didn’t really put any meat on my bones until well after high school).
I did go to some open tryouts after high school but never really thought I had a realistic shot. Just did it so that I know in the future I gave it a shot; and I knew I had nothing to lose.
By Roman Gal
December 23, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this
mo in the boonies
I completely understand and agree.
By Shaun Payne
December 23, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this
Yars, I think Kelly Johnson should be hitting leadoff. He’s proven he has the patience at the plate and the on-base ability needed in that spot. I don’t think Cox would put a rookie there who also has to replace one of the best defensive centerfielders of all time.
Overlord, I know he has a long way to go but I think Wright is on his way to becoming the next generation’s Chipper. He hits .300, he gets on base, he hits for power, has speed, and he’s a solid defensive thirdbaseman. Wright’s the man right now. But the Braves can still beat the Mets if Ryan Church is the regular rightfielder, if their pitching doesn’t step up and Carlos Delgado continues his downward spiral (which I don’t see any reason why he would not).
By Shaun Payne
December 23, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this
Mets have exactly two projected everyday players that still have their best days ahead of them as major league ballplayers. The Braves are full of guys who will continue to get better as the season progresses. Mets are relying on Wright, Reyes and Beltran—a pretty good core—but by season’s end, the Braves could have a better-than-league-average player at virtually every position.
By Metropolitan Man
December 23, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this
Heres my Happy Holiday comments for you braves fans. This is something i didnt know about your franchise that not even Metropolitan Man can make fun of. Are you ready for this? Here it is!
Great quote quote from Jayson Stark’s article: “Over the last 17 seasons, they’ve won more games than any team in baseball. In fact, they’ve won 170 more games than the next-winningest team in the National League, the Cardinals.
Think about that for a second. If the Braves lost every game they played next season and the Cardinals went undefeated, the Braves would still have a better record than the Cardinals — or anyone else in the league — since 1991.”
Congradulations!!!
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 23, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this
Green Bay 7 Chicago 28 , WHAT THE @$%# ??
By Overlord
December 23, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this
Wright on his way, just as Griffey, Raul Mondesi, David Justice, Chris Sabo, Vince Coleman, Tim Salmon, Garciaparra, etc? Talent is there……. Time (lots of it) will tell.
By Metropolitan Man
December 23, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this
David Wright=Anti Chipper
By Lew
December 23, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this
MetroDude-That makes absolutely no sense.
Mo In The Boonies-You’re pretty well right about giving out information on the net. Now I do have the addresses and names of maybe 40 of the Denizens-an honor I will never abuse-won’t even pass the email addresses on to people I trust if such is a blogger’s wish.
However, not everyone, as you say, is a kind, old grandfatherly type like myself (though Anders and MetroMan might differ there)-care must be given.
By Randy S
December 23, 2007 3:55 PM | Link to this
The Phillies just signed So Taguchi for 1 mil with an option year. I had liked him as a CF option, but oh well.
By Metropolitan Man
December 23, 2007 3:55 PM | Link to this
What Lew, for METS fans Wright cant be the Anti Chipper? Whats wrong with that? Your dislike for the METS is equivalent to METS fans dislike of the braves.
By 74 Dawg
December 23, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this
Guys, I love this Blog. Merry Christmas to all, and in the spirit of same , lighten up on Robert. There but for …well. McFan, could you loan him your copy of “It’s a Wonderful Life”? Robert ,watch it 5 times.
By Braveheart
December 23, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this
Mo in the Boonies You said my posts the other day about the shoddy Mitchell investigation did not make sense. Well, at least one longtime respected baseball writer agrees with me: Bill Madden of the New York Daily News who entitled his column Mitchell Report Lacks Substance. Here is what he had to say in pertinent part:
The fallout from the Mitchell Report just keeps on keeping on and with more players each day - Brian Roberts, Fernando Viña, F.P. Santangelo, Dan Naulty, Andy Pettitte - all confirming their names should have been in there, it’s clear commissioner Bud Selig made the right call in ordering a full-blown investigation of steroids in baseball. He just picked the wrong guy to do it.
I think we all agree that former Sen. George Mitchell is a man of great integrity and substance, having helped broker peace in Northern Ireland. But he was not the kind of hardened, relentless and tireless investigator this monumental task needed, as proven by the fact that he never got beyond the two key witnesses - former Mets clubhouse go-fer Kirk Radomski and former Yankee trainer Brian McNamee - the federal authorities dumped in his lap.
Alas, such is the real flaw in Mitchell’s report - and the reason a lot of the owners, I’m told, are now expressing their dismay about the money (reported figures have been $20 million-$30 million although Selig and Mitchell won’t divulge the actual tab) they invested in this investigation which, in the end, revealed very little that anyone didn’t already know through newspaper reports, many of which were this newspaper’s. And yet, even Mitchell admits the nearly 100 players named in his report are but a small sampling of the actual number of players cheating over the last 10-15 years. Without subpoena power, Mitchell insisted, he was limited in terms of where he could take his investigation. But that’s a cop-out. Investigative journalists don’t have subpoena power either and look at what they’ve been able to uncover independently over the course of history.
If Mitchell was going to rely on the feds-supplied witnesses, Radomski and McNamee, to out Clemens, he had an obligation to interview anybody and everybody associated with other similar, high-profile, Hall of Fame caliber players who’ve had their names linked to steroids. Because he didn’t, there are a lot of cheaters looking forward to having a very merry Christmas because they escaped the Mitchell Report. And there are probably more than a handful who are now breathing easier about being elected to the Hall of Fame under false pretenses because no one was able to dig up any evidence against them.
It would have been a lot easier, however, if we’d gotten answers on a lot more players from Mitchell, if his investigation would have uncovered a lot more suppliers and sources than just Radomski. If you ask me, it’s the feds, not Mitchell, who should be getting credit for what has come out of this investigation, and any of us could have come up with the same list of recommendations as the senator did. I’m bothered by the fact that, after two years, the result of this investigation is anything but thorough. If anything, it prompts more questions, starting with the owners’ presumed “Peggy Lee” lament when they are presented with Mitchell’s bill from Selig: “Is that all there is?”
By Lew
December 23, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this
MetroDude-No, it has nothing whatsoever to do with any dislike of anyone. My original comment about BC and Wright was a reference not only to a specific post, but to a running line we’ve had going all week. Your statement just flat out made no sense.
By Braveheart
December 23, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this
No offense MikeS but So Taguchi should change his name to So What.
By ncgary
December 23, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this
well id ante up now with tex and offer what i would offer and if he didnt accept , id go for straight trade with baltimore for roberts and bedard throw in prado and a reliever
By Metropolitan Man
December 23, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this
Lew: No Comment!!!!
By Lew
December 23, 2007 4:19 PM | Link to this
NCGary-If we traded Tex to the Orioles, THEY should throw in the reliever and middle infielder, not us. Tex alone is worth all of them.
MetroDude-Look at it like this-If anything, Wright is the Mets’ version of Chipper, not his antithesis. They are both good hitting third basemen with power that tend to tear up each other’s teams. They are much more alike than opposites.
By McFann
December 23, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this
Mo, Roman Gal, Lew, and who else it may concern:
Not to worry, my friends, this computer is in our school room. We’d never have our own computers!! We don’t even have our own phones. (But that’s OK. I hate talking on the phone.)
To be honest, I don’t read every single post on here, and I haven’t read any word that I didn’t hear on HOME ALONe. LOL!!
Seriously, though. My parents know about this. After talking it over, they were cool with me giving our address to Lew. They read his e-mails and all that jazz.
Now, please excuse me. It’s time to decorate cut out cookies.
By ncgary
December 23, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this
adirondak havent seen the entire schedule but mlb.com has a tour package that shows where atlanta is for around 12 games away from dark star, im assuming the rest of the games are probably there at disney, just navigate around , youll find it
By Braveheart
December 23, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this
When the Larry and Hooters jokes get old for the Mets fans, we promise to get tired of the David Wright jokes. The problem is Chipper has had a long career. David Wright will have a short one so we need to get our jokes in while we can. The Curse of Hojo & Alfonzo dictates how short Wonder Woman’s career is gonna be. This will be the last good season for David Wright in 2008. 5 good years out of a third baseman is about all the Mets can ever get. So celebrate your last good year of David Wright in 2008 Mets fans. After that, you’re gonna see a dramatic dropoff like you witnessed with Howard Johnson and Edgardo Alfonzo.
By Metropolitan Man
December 23, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this
Wright is the Mets’ version of Chipper, not his antithesis.
Ask any METS fans and they will tell you he is Anti because 1 player handles his business to help the METS while its the other guy’s business to destroy the METS. Its all in how you look at it LEW….kind of like the comments we make on blogs. Like most stars say, if the other team fans arent booing me, I’m not doing my job and for some reason Chumper loves to show METS fans a bad time.
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 23, 2007 4:41 PM | Link to this
Personally , I still think Roger Clemens was juiced. However , the argument that pitchers don’t get better with age is somewhat problematic. Here is what I mean.
Nolan Ryan pitched for 27 years until the age of 46.
Roger Clemens pitched for 24 years until the age of 44.
I split the two of them up before and after the age of 33 to 34.
Roger Clemens career from ages 21-33: 192 wins - 111 losses - .633 winning percentage - 2776 innings logged - 943 earned runs - 3.05 ERA and 2590 strike outs. Thats 13 years of stats.
Nolan Ryans career from ages 19 to 33 : 178 wins - 169 losses - .513 winning percentage - 2925 innings logged - 1033 earned runs - 3.17 ERA and 3109 strike outs. Thats 14 years of stats.
Roger Clemens career from ages 34 to 44 : 162 wins - 73 losses - .689 winning percentage - 2140.33 innings logged - 764 earned runs - 3.21 ERA and 2082 Strike outs. Thats 11 years of stats.
Nolan Ryans career from ages 34 to 46 : 146 wins - 123 losses - .542 winning percentage - 2461 innings logged - 878 earned runs - 3.21 ERA and 2605 strike outs.
Roger Clemens over a career 24 years : 354 wins - 184 losses - 4916.7 innings logged and an ERA of 3.12 with 4672 K’s
Nolan Ryan over a career 27 years : 324 wins - 184 losses - 5386 innings logged and an ERA of 3.19 with 5714 K’s
I realize that the different teams , Era’s , parks and countless other things factor into the stats. What is undeniable about the comparison is that neither pitcher had better numbers during the second half of their careers.
The only thing that jumps out at me is this. Clemens pitched three less seasons , threw 469.3 fewer innings , had 1042 less strike outs and yet ended up with 30 more wins , 108 fewer losses and had a better career ERA than Ryan by 0.07 , 3.19 compared to 3.12
Draw your own conclusions , I did.
By Metropolitan Man
December 23, 2007 4:43 PM | Link to this
Sorry Braveheart, the Hooters and Larrrrrryyyyyyyyyy, will stand the test of time. Like you said he has a long career and the chants arent just Shea related anymore. If you were following braves baseball on tv, you can hear the Larrrrryyyyyyy chants at almost evey stadium now when he steps to the plate. Its caught on so well that I’m suprised Smoltz or Booby Cox doenst have a annoying chant when they make their money.
By mo in the boonies
December 23, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, I think if you will go back and re-read what I wrote, I said, “was the Mitchell report enough, no!” But the investigations are not over. There will be much more in upcoming months and years. Congress unfortunately, doesn’t move with the speed of light. And the Baseball owners and union don’t seem to give a darn, except to cover it all up. The reason the Mitchell Report was important is that it proved that there was something to investigate in the first place, and much more to investigate, and more muscle needed to do it. Unfortunately Mitchell didn’t have that muscle. Doesn’t mean he didn’t try his best. If the owners feel they didn’t get their money’s worth, maybe they should have pushed their players more to talk to Mitchell.
McFann Good to hear you are being taken care of.
Thanks Lew for the backup.
By Metropolitan Man
December 23, 2007 5:00 PM | Link to this
Nothing to report, heres some METS and braves tidbits from the overall rivalry:
The Braves-Mets rivalry has roots that trace all the way back to the 1969 NLCS, when the upstart Mets, led by Tom Seaver, would defeat Hank Aaron and the Braves in a three game sweep en route to their first World Series Championship. The rivalry didn’t pick up real steam until the late 1990s though when the Mets and Braves both became members of the National League East Division.
The Braves had been the dominant team of the National League throughout the 1990s, while the Mets were perennial doormats. This changed in 1998 as the Mets would start competing with the Braves for the division title, and contend for the National League Wild Card. Despite this success, the Mets couldn’t claim victory over the Braves, especially at Turner Field in Atlanta. Significant late season losses to the Braves, including a season ending sweep in Atlanta (when the Mets only needed to win one game to win the Wild Card) kept the Mets out of the playoffs as the Braves cruised to the division title with a franchise-record 106 wins, finishing 18 games ahead of New York in the East.
Both teams played solid baseball in 1999. The Mets, led by Mike Piazza, Robin Ventura, Al Leiter, and Edgardo Alfonzo, still had problems beating the Braves in the regular season and almost missed the playoffs altogether due to late season losses in Atlanta. The Braves, led by John Rocker, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine and eventual NL MVP Chipper Jones ended up winning their eighth straight division title, due to their late season heroics over the Mets. Jones, whose real first name is Larry, would have to endure “LARRY” chants by Shea Stadium crowds.
After a season long battle for first place, both teams made the playoffs. The Braves won the division, and the Mets backed into the playoffs with a one game playoff victory over the Cincinnati Reds for the 1999 Wild Card. The Braves defeated the Houston Astros, and the Mets defeated the Arizona Diamondbacks in the NLDS that year setting up what would become a classic NLCS.
Game 5 would become a classic battle, as the game extended into 15-inning marathon that lasted over five hours. The game began shortly after 4 p.m. with Atlanta ace Greg Maddux taking on New York’s Masato Yoshii. The game would continue on well into what was a wet evening, hampered by a steady October rain in New York City. With the game tied at 2 in the top of the 13th inning, the Braves just missed their best chance. With Keith Lockhart at first Chipper Jones launched an extra base hit down the right field line. Mets right fielder Melvin Mora did an excellent job cutting the ball off and hit relay man Edgardo Alfonzo with a perfect relay thrown. Alfonzo then fired the ball home where Mets catcher Mike Piazza applied the tag for the out. In the top of the 15th, Lockhart got his own personal revenge on the Mets as he hit a go ahead RBI triple off of Octavio Dotel to give the Braves a 3-2 lead. In the bottom of the 15th, the Mets then mounted their own comeback, by loading the bases for third baseman, and perennial grand slam threat Robin Ventura. Ventura then proceeded to launch one the most memorable walk-off grand slam’s in baseball history to win the game for the Mets. The home run, which is commonly referred by Mets fans as the “Grand Single” gave the Mets the opportunity to bring the series back to Atlanta, and effectively put the Mets back in the series. Since Ventura only made it no further than first base due to being mobbed by his teammates the hit would officially go down in the books as a walk off single.[1]
The series returned to Turner Field in Atlanta, a place that had been a house of horrors for the Mets since it opened for baseball in 1997. Game Six was just as close as the previous five games. The Braves were staked to a quick 6-0, battering Mets ace Al Leiter. However, the Mets staged a comeback, highlighted by a game tying home run by Mike Piazza off of Braves starter John Smoltz. After blowing late inning leads in the 9th and 10th innings, the Mets saw their season come to an end when Kenny Rogers walked Andruw Jones with the bases loaded. The walk solidified the troubles that Rogers had always occurred while pitching for New York based teams. Rogers was instantly vilified by Mets fans, and was not resigned after the season.
During another season-long struggle between the two teams for the division title, the rivalry came to a climax on fireworks night at Shea Stadium on June 30, 2000. Trailing the Braves 8-1 in the 8th inning, the Mets staged a furious two-out rally in the bottom half of the inning, capped by a Mike Piazza line drive home run off the Mets retired numbers in left field, to give the Mets the lead and eventually the victory.
All signs pointed to a rematch in the 2000 NLCS, as the Braves won their ninth straight division title and the Mets once again captured the National League Wild Card. However, the Braves lost in the Division Series against the St. Louis Cardinals, while the Mets defeated the San Francisco Giants en route to the NLCS and their first World Series berth since 1986.
In a moment that transcended the rivalry, Mets and Braves players embraced each other on the field during pregame ceremonies remembering the victims of the attacks. The game itself was highly emotional as the Mets came from behind to win 3-2 on an emotional home run by Mike Piazza. Piazza later stated that the home run was one of the proudest moments of his career. With a chance to sweep and tie the Braves for the division lead, the Mets headed to Atlanta the next weekend for a three game series. However, after losing the first game, they saw the season virtually end on September 29, 2001, as they blew a 5-1 lead, once again in ninth inning. In that inning, relievers Armando Benitez and John Franco struggled to record an out and Franco ultimately gave up a game winning grand slam to Brian Jordan.
After the disappointing 2002 season the Mets signed long time Braves pitching staple Tom Glavine to anchor their starting rotation in a move that started to fuel the rivalry’s fire again. Glavine has seen mostly poor results while facing his former team, sporting a 3-10 record with an ERA of 5.55, but has thrived against other teams, and is still one of the best pitchers in the game.
In the 2004 the Braves effectively ended the Mets’ season right after the trading deadline. After the Mets, 6 games behind of the Braves at the time, traded infamously for Kris Benson and Victor Zambrano (the latter for top tier Mets prospect Scott Kazmir), the Braves swept the Mets in decisive fashion at Turner Field. The Mets left Atlanta 9 games behind their rivals and never recovered.
The Mets fielded a much more competitive team in 2005 after hiring Omar Minaya as their General Manager and former Yankees third base coach Willie Randolph as manager. The Mets finished in third place, 7 games behind the Braves, who won their 14th straight division title.
Sarcastic remarks were made by Braves players Jeff Francoeur and Adam LaRoche concerning an early Mets lead in the division,[2] Mets pitcher Pedro Martinez won his 200th career game against them at Shea. The Mets went on to run away with the division and swept a late July series in Atlanta. It was the Mets first sweep of more than three games against the Braves since 1985, and their first sweep ever in Turner Field. On September 12, 2006 the Mets 6-4 win over the Florida Marlins mathematically eliminated the Braves from winning the NL East, finally ending the Braves’ streak of consecutive division titles at 14. The Mets officially won the division on September 18, ending a significant era of dominance by the Braves. The Mets also won the season series against the Braves for the first time since 1996. The Mets would go to the NLCS but lose in seven games to the eventual champion St. Louis Cardinals.
Prior to 2007, the two teams (along with the Philadelphia Phillies), were considered the front runners to compete for the NL East title. With both teams 3-0, the Braves won an early April series two games to one at Turner Field. On April 20, 2007 the teams played a three game series at Shea Stadium, where the Braves once again took two out of three games. From May 22-24 the two teams played a three game set at Turner Field, where the Braves for the third time in the season took the series. The only Mets win was attributed to Mets pitcher Oliver Perez, who has the only three Mets wins against their rivals in 2007. The teams met from August 7-9 at Shea Stadium, the Braves taking the series 2-1. The Mets swept a series at Turner Field from August 31-September 2 which left the Braves 7 games back of the NL East. The Mets took the final series from September 10-12 leaving the season series tied 9 apiece. In the end, both teams failed to take the division, which was won by the Philadelphia Phillies.
The Braves hold an all-time series lead of 328-276 over the Mets as of May 25, 2007. Each team has beaten the other in an NLCS. The Mets swept the Braves in 1969, and the Braves defeated the Mets four games to two in 1999. Atlanta star Chipper Jones named his son Shea after the Mets’ Shea Stadium because of his impressive numbers while playing in that ballpark. He also hit his first home run there.[3] Since the Mets joined the National League in 1962 they have won two World Series titles (1969 and 1986), four National League Pennants (1969, 1973, 1986, and 2000), and five division titles (1969, 1973, 1986, 1988, and 2006). Since 1962 the Braves have won one World Series title (1995), five National League Pennants (1991, 1992, 1995, 1996, 1999), and 16 division titles (1969, 1982, 1991-1993, 1995-2005). The Mets and Braves played a memorable game on Thursday July 4, 1985 at Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium. After a back and forth tustle throughout the game, the score was tied at 8 at the end of nine. The game would not end though until 10 innings later as the Mets led by first baseman Keith Hernandez, who hit for the cycle would defeat the Braves in a wild 16-13 victory. The Mets would go on to sweep the four game series. It would be their last sweep of three or more games against Atlanta until 2006. Going into the final five games of the 1998 season all the Mets had to do was win one game to win the National League Wild Card. After losing to the Montreal Expos at Shea Stadium, the Mets then proceeded to get swept at Turner Field by the Braves, thwarting their push for their first post season berth since 1988. The Mets were 0-6 at Turner Field in 1998. Game Five of the 1999 NLCS is known to Mets fans as the “Grand Single” game, when Mets third baseman Robin Ventura ended the game with a walk-off grand slam. However Ventura never made it past second base as his teammates mobbed him. The single extended the series to a Game Six in Atlanta. Game Six of the 1999 NLCS concluded what was a memorable series as Mets pitcher Kenny Rogers walked in Andruw Jones as the pennant winning run for the Braves. With a 10-6 win at Turner Field on July 30, 2006 the Mets completed a three game sweep of the Braves. This marked their first sweep of the Braves of three or more games since 1985, and their first ever sweep at Turner Field. Braves ace John Smoltz and Mets ace Tom Glavine, longtime friends, have been matched up against each other five times. The Braves won the first four duels with John Smoltz winning three of the starts and Tom Glavine won for the first time against his old buddy on September 2. On May 24, 2007, Smoltz won against his old buddy 2-1 capturing his 200th win of his career.
Now here we are present day. LETS GO METS!!!!
By doc
December 23, 2007 5:09 PM | Link to this
coach, not sure what your conclusion is by the comparisons. who is to say nolan didnt juice, has already had a coronary and that is one of the main side effects of steroids, cardiovascular disease. he also came from texas and came through a period late in his career with the rangers and astros and never lost a fraction off his fastball.
david, just saw juno. excellent and a film that you want to laugh but you know the next line is going to be that much better if not equal. some classic lines and descriptions especially the one of doctors. intelligent script in its own way.
By Robert
December 23, 2007 5:58 PM | Link to this
Chrisklob and ANYONE else, or all y’all for that matter
Here’s my proposal for a bet
I’ll wager a ten-spot or a six pack of beverage of the winner’s choice that in the first full season in which the Braves are managed by someone other than Bobby Cox, their regular season record will show at LEAST a 10-game improvement when compared to the last full season when they are managed for the entire season by Cox
The reason for the detailed parsing of the wording is that a season with an in-season change wouldnt count - when I say “managed for the entire season” it’s not to get an out if Donk gets ejected
Takers? - Come one, come all - and I’ll tell you what - If the Braves win a WS title within five years of Donk’s exit from the dugout, I’ll use funds and all the sixers y’all will owe me to throw one HELL of a Braves victory party
Once Cox’s managerial career is over, the team’s results will result in a rapid and drastic decline in his reputation
By semiballcoach
December 23, 2007 6:01 PM | Link to this
I have heard Tom House speak times, both times he used Nolan Ryan and Roger Clemens to emphasize what a change in mechanics would do. House supposedly changed Ryan’s mechanics first and then when Clemns signed with the Astros, Ryan puled him aside. He said it was simple, all Clemens had to do was keep his head over his bellybutton on his follow thru. (among other things) go to the NPA website to see for yourself…but I still think Clemens juiced
By Robert
December 23, 2007 6:03 PM | Link to this
“Chipper is not one of the best 3B to ever play at the in atlanta. He is not only one of the best ever to play at 3B. He is one of the best players ever.”
Chipper Jones is a great hitter, and a sure-fire HOFer. But he isnt anything close to being one of the best players ever
By ncgary
December 23, 2007 6:10 PM | Link to this
LEW agreed about tex he is worth that , but with roster spots and options and all….. dont want to see them trade tex either , but i feel we should go ahead and make best offer now, and go from there, if he is unimpressed with best offer cut ties and get the best option available and right now that would probably be bedard, even though baltimore said bedard is no longer trade option
By Robert
December 23, 2007 6:11 PM | Link to this
Coach - Nolan Ryan is on the short list of most UNIQUE (by the true meaning of the word) players of all time.
I agree with you that it’s not by any means unprecedented for pitchers, and even power pitchers, to have a late career surge,(hell, look at Smoltzie) but I think using Ryan to demonstarte something being somewhat commonplace, in any sense is in some ways self-defeating
By Robert
December 23, 2007 6:16 PM | Link to this
If I owned a baseball team, I’d sooner have Rafael Belliard as my cleanup hitter and Dave Kingman as my shortstop than Bobby Cox as manager
By David O'Brien
December 23, 2007 6:39 PM | Link to this
Speaking of best players ever … greetings from Wilson, N.C., home of the North Carolina Baseball Museum. Also, home of my parents, whom I’m visiting for Christmas.
Flew into Raleigh today and went to the North baseball museum, then chowed down at Parker’s, which in my opinion is as good as BBQ gets (Eastern N.C. style, of course, with great Brunswick stew, corn sticks and sweet tea (let my parents eat all the slaw; I’m not a slaw guy), and served in the same plain building where the restaurant’s been since 1946.
As for the baseball museum, I didn’t know it existed before today, but it’s a pretty cool place. It’s at Fleming Stadium, an old-school, renovated little ballpark here in Wilson, and they’ve got some pretty solid memorabilia and photos of all the great N.C.-born players, of which there are many more than I knew of while I was growing up here in N.C.
I knew Catfish Hunter and Gaylord Perry, guys like that, but didn’t know others ranging from Hoyt Wilhelm (Huntersville) and Enos “Country” Slaughter (Roxboro) to Mark Grace (Winston-Salem) and our man Otis Nixon (Columbus County) were from here. Along with hundreds of others, including relative newbies such as Kevin Millwood (Gastonia), Josh Hamilton (Raleigh) and Quinton McCracken (Wilmington).
Also found out my dad hit a homer off Roger Craig, who played 12 seasons in the majors and later managed the Dodger. No, my dad didn’t homer off him in the majors. Or the minors. It was summer league high-school stuff, when Daddy-O was at Oxford High (Craig was from nearby Durham).
Anyway, it was alright, checking out this museum. Not exactly Cooperstown, but charming and not overcrowded, and all run by volunteers.
Most of the N.C. big leaguers have baseball cards there, some have donated jerseys and other stuff. There’s also mention (and baseball cards) of the Jones boys, Chipper and Andruw, who both played minor league ball in the state, of course….
Speaking of Chipper, on this one I’ll agree with Robert (I know, frightening to agree on anything with a guy who will say with a straight face that Bobby Cox is a terrible manager).
Chipper’s one of the greatest switch-hitters. Statistically, no question he’s that.
But one of the best players ever? That’s a mighty big statement. It’s all subjective, of course, because statistics very so greatly among different eras. With a high mound, or a “dead” ball, or today’s smaller ballparks, or a whites-only game for the first part of the 20th century … it’s really tough to compare players from different eras.
But I don’t think many historians would consider him one of the “best players ever.”
One of the best of the past 20 years? Now that’s worth debating. You could make a strong case for that.
By Braveheart
December 23, 2007 6:43 PM | Link to this
The reason the Mitchell Report was important is that it proved that there was something to investigate in the first place, and much more to investigate, and more muscle needed to do it. Unfortunately Mitchell didn’t have that muscle. Doesn’t mean he didn’t try his best.
The reason the Mitchell report was supposed to be important was because THE ENTIRE WORLD already knew there was something to investigate in the first place. THAT is why they wasted $20 to $30 million dollars with Mitchell to thoroughly investigate and not just merely study the matter.
A man of his stature and his power needed more muscle? Really? Then what the hell were they paying Mitchell all of those millions for? Why didn’t he just say I don’t have muscle and am not up to the task? You would think $20 to $30 million dollars provided to a man of his stature and power would pay for a boatload of investigators to go speak with the clubbies, the ballboys, the go-fers, the mistresses, the groupies, the posses, the hanger on types, the people at the gyms the athletes work out at.
If the players didn’t want to talk, some of those people would have been. And that’s how you start getting players to talk and work your way back to the players.
I have zero idea why you are the least bit impressed with Mitchell’s work here.
Maybe Mitchell did try his best. Chris Woodward tried his best as well. However, each of their performances was pretty sorry over the last year in accomplishing what they were asked to accomplish.
By Josh
December 23, 2007 6:45 PM | Link to this
Well Robert I hope you get insanely rich, buy the Mets and adhere to the philosophy you just mentioned.
By Braveheart
December 23, 2007 6:59 PM | Link to this
Metroman, I know the Larrrrrrrry chant has spread all over. I believe it was in Philly this year when Chipper hit a homer and Skip Caray yelled at an obnoxious fan Larry that one buddy!
But that Larry chant belongs to the Mets fans. The rest of them are just merely unoriginal imitators.
I sometimes wish the ATL crowd was cool enough to flip the Larry chant around on the Mets fans and just chant it themselves at the Ted.
I believe the Larry thing was just something the Mets took from when they would do the same thing with Daaaaaaaaaryl Strawberry. But the Daaaaaaaryl thing I believe actually started up in Boston in 1986 when the Mets played an exhibition game up there that year during the middle of the regular season. After that, the Mets fan just adopted it themselves and turned into a loving chant of their own instead of a taunt like when the Bosox fans were doing it.
But I dunno. It’s probably better that Atlanta fans never used it themselves with Chipper. It’s always fun watching you Metsies humiliate yourselves when he takes you deep yet again after you waste so much energy taunting him.
Like trying to take the mask off the Lone Ranger.
By chrisklob
December 23, 2007 7:08 PM | Link to this
Robert*, you’re totally missing the point. You are welcome to have any opinion about Cox or anyone else that you want for that matter. The reason that I tell you to shut up every time you knock on Cox (which is EVERY TIME you make a post) is because we are all sick and tired of listening to you rail on him nonstop. We get it, Robert. You hate Cox. You are obsessed with hating Cox.
Dude, let it go. Some anonymous guy complaining about him on a blog is not going to make him do a better job or make him disappear.
There are a million things to talk about here and they’re not even all related to Braves baseball. Please choose an alternate subject and blog away.
By Metropolitan Man
December 23, 2007 7:18 PM | Link to this
Yeah Braveheart, my funniest Turner memories are me and the METS fans yelling Larry in unison only for the bum to get a hit. And when he hit a HR on some of those occasions the braves faithful would let us have it and tell us to do it again. Ahhh, to be at a game again. 8 plus weeks and its on again!!!
By McFann
December 23, 2007 7:18 PM | Link to this
Wow. Looks like MetroMan has a lot of time on his hands.
BTW, thanks to mo for saying that I seem to be intelligent, whether or not it’s true. I do like to write. It’s kind of a hobby. (‘Sept for history papers and the like
Lend Robert our copy of It’s a Wonderful Life? No way!! I wouldn’t trust it to his filthy hands!!
By McFann
December 23, 2007 7:24 PM | Link to this
Yeah, Robert. Your hating of Cox is as annoying as those people (Braveheart) saying that McCann isn’t blessed with ability. So either shut up about it or go away.
Lew, I sent you some drawings by e-mail. (Or at least, I thuoght I did.) Have you gotten them? I don’t want to boast, I just want to be sure.
By Metropolitan Man
December 23, 2007 7:35 PM | Link to this
Yeah McFann, I have dedicated this boring Sunday to surfing da net, blogging, and looking for the after Christmas gifts to get when they are very very affordable.
I’m also Jonsing (wrong choice of words) for some baseball….any kind of baseball right about now!!!
By David O'Brien
December 23, 2007 8:23 PM | Link to this
kd, Arcade Fire is absolutely amazing live, with an army of musicians ontsage, swapping instruments, taking turns on lead vocals, and so much energy from every corner of the stage. they sound great and get everybody in the crowd standing and singing along from start to finish. great live band….
ncgary, regarding your 6:10 post: other than as you pointed out, baltimore saying Bedard is no longer a trade option and, oh yeah, the Braves having no interest in trading Tex, I see no reason your suggestion won’t fly. Once again: Folks, he’s not getting traded unless the Braves are completely out of the playoff race at the trade deadline in July….
DOC, so true what you said about Juno and laughing at lines. Everyone in the theatre was laughing at so many lines, we missed a few really good lines that followed. I’m gonna see that one again, for sure. One of my favorite movies of the year.
By Joe Fan
December 23, 2007 8:49 PM | Link to this
Finally put together my top 15 plus one, here is is in alphabetical order.
Arcade Fire - Neon Bible Ryan Adams - Easy Tiger Band of Horses - Cease to Begin Andrew Bird - Armchair Apocrypha Bright Eyes - Cassadaga Dinosaur Jr. - Beyond The everybodyfields - Nothing is Okay Explosians in the Sky - All of a Sudden I Miss Everyone Les Savy Fav - Let’s Stay Friends Menomena - Friend or Foe Modest Mouse - We Were Dead Before the Ship Sank The New Pornographers - Challenger Peter, Bjorn & John - Writer’s Block Radiohead - In Rainbows The Ponys - Turn the Lights Out Wilco - Sky Blue Sky
By McFann
December 23, 2007 8:50 PM | Link to this
OK…um…great, MetroMan. You want baseball? Well, if you stick around here long enough you might realize that it’s s’posed to be about Braves baseball. But you said “any kind of baseball”, so I guess you’re fine with that.
Gotta run. If you don’t read from me within the next two days (and you won’t on Christmas Day for sure) I want to wish everyone a Merry Christmas!! It’s been an interesting month or so in the blogesphere (forgive my spelling, but this is my first time ever on a blog). I’m glad I switched from the Vent. Around here, you know you’re gonna get through.
By Joe Fan
December 23, 2007 8:57 PM | Link to this
Let me try this again.
Arcade Fire - Neon Bible
Ryan Adams - Easy Tiger
Band of Horses - Cease to Begin
Andrew Bird - Armchair Apocrypha Bright Eyes - Cassadaga
Dinosaur Jr. - Beyond
The everybodyfields - Nothing is Okay
Explosians in the Sky - All of a Sudden I Miss Everyone
Les Savy Fav - Let’s Stay Friends
Menomena - Friend or Foe
Modest Mouse - We Were Dead Before the Ship Sank
The New Pornographers - Challenger
Peter, Bjorn & John - Writer’s Block
Radiohead - In Rainbows
The Ponys - Turn the Lights Out
Wilco - Sky Blue Sky
By Lew
December 23, 2007 9:12 PM | Link to this
McFann-Yep. I got them. Have you tried oil painting yet?
By McFann
December 23, 2007 9:20 PM | Link to this
No, I have never tried oil painting. I’ve never had too much luck with painting. Maybe someday I’ll give it a try.
Merry Christmas!!
By Lew
December 23, 2007 10:16 PM | Link to this
McFann-Art is definitely one of those things that you just have to keep plugging away at. Every really good artist has stacks of unfinished or discontinued pieces sitting around the place. If something doesn’t work you do it over again or try it another way.
The main thing is that you know how to draw and that is the basis of all art. If you can’t draw, likely you won’t be able to paint or do sculpture. If you can draw, from there it’s all a matter of trial and error. You’ve got that part down-now it’s just a matter of development. It’s just like writing a story or article, or writing a song. That’s why they are all referred to as compositions.
I never told DOB this before, but I have three other Johnny Cash drawings that I didn’t like and four of Hank Williams, Sr., that never got finished-just to do the two Wurlitzers he received. That’s just the way it goes. If it doesn’t look right, you just can’t let it go. Wish I had a dollar for every piece I’ve torn up out of frustration. I could afford more space for those unfinished pieces.
By doc
December 23, 2007 10:23 PM | Link to this
yeah david, i said the same thing that that is one movie i will se again. i dont usually see a movie twice unless i have too. maybe a handfull electively…dr strangelove, the graduate and sunshine. i look forward to it. think some of the lines may be part of the culture. now if i could find a way to afford the music easily. the spirit of the movie was so gentle and genuine that there was applause at the end, unique to say the least.
is mcfann filling the void of the north carolina lady?
oooh, mcfann might give us a bit more perspective on juno, look forward to taking my daughters to it.
By Robert
December 24, 2007 12:20 AM | Link to this
” We get it, Robert. You hate Cox. You are obsessed with hating Cox”
I dont hate Cox. I have contepmt for his managerial skills, and I “hate” the fact that he ruins things for my But as long as he doesnt manage the Braves, I could be best buddies with him. And I’d let my kids ride him at the county fair any day of the week. 40 years in the game - the ole Donker could hee-haw up quite some stories.
By brian
December 24, 2007 1:08 AM | Link to this
I am surprised to see McCann rated so low. He has been very successful at a young age, and he has done this playing catcher. What was Joe Mauer ranked? I look through Braves tinted glasses but McCann should not be far behind Mauer if at all.
I cannot believe DOB that you do not like the vinegar based cole slaw. That is how it is meant to be made! aside from BBQ, slaw, and stew, those small BBQ places have the best hush puppies as well. The more the place is a hole in the wall, the better the food.
By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)
December 24, 2007 1:38 AM | Link to this
Rocco Baldelli in CF ? trade possibilities , anybody ? C’mon , where are all you folks that were screaming for this guy last off-season……… :)
By nOLIE
December 24, 2007 3:52 AM | Link to this
Ex-Yankee Naughty tells what life in the bigs is really like
By ncgary
December 24, 2007 5:55 AM | Link to this
well DOB , i dont really want to see tex traded either, we gave up quite a few players to get him and mahay , mahay is gone and looks like we have tex for 1 more year, i dont think salty or even elvus will be the one missed but harrison will probably be an ace in 3 years. i also admit that i am not part of the negotiating team on contracts , but if i were i would do like my post suggested and go ahead and put an offer on the table and know where my maximum limit was to see if i could sign him early, and if he isnt interested after best offer made , then i would be looking now for the best trade by july31 im not advocating for his trade, just sick of seeing all the stupid giveaways for rent a players
By Rodney Derrick
December 24, 2007 6:22 AM | Link to this
In this holiday season of the Winter Solstice and six weeks to go before the pitchers start to warm up, we should all thank DOB now for all his great work, but David, I have a few questions for you— Working with Furman Bisher, also from North Carolina, for some years now, it seems a bit implausible that you would not be familiar with all those North Carolina baseball players. So, don’t you guys ever talk? Also, this morning the NY Times has a story about the huge escalation in competition and pay for sports writers, especially caused by ESPN. It is much like the absurd pay for mediocre relief pitchers and some other players. How long will we continue to have you around, considering how often you are interviewed on various programs and how you have revolutionized the blogs on baseball? Or will your negativity on Stuart Scott stop an ESPN recruitment? Have you talked to Scott Boras about representation? Of course, there is always Sports Illustrated. Important to note as well that sports writers often move to other areas of the newspaper as well, examples being Atlanta’s own Ralph McGill. There is also MTV or music writer.
By Yars
December 24, 2007 6:29 AM | Link to this
nOLIE…..thank you for the link on the ex-Yankee pitcher. Very interesting read.
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 24, 2007 6:40 AM | Link to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M&feature=related
By ncgary
December 24, 2007 6:57 AM | Link to this
yeah dobs story about his fathers homerun reminds me of one of mine when i finally put some aluminum on one of bryan harveys fastballs, i was thrilled even though it weakly rolled foul down the first base line,theres one fireballer who i dont think used steroids , he was throwin like 80 mph when he was 12 and tony clonninger was an uncle
By ncgary
December 24, 2007 7:08 AM | Link to this
after reding the steroid article about mcnulty and seeing the interview with brady sounds like they are at similar paths , kinda makes me wander if brady arm more naturally around 55 to 60 yards instead of the 70 he can now throw. anyone else guessing a major steroid drug test before nfl playoffs and a big superbowl controversy???
By doc
December 24, 2007 7:24 AM | Link to this
is bret related to roger? maybe they have met and talked a bit on one of those ducks/geese shoots in texas or la.
i wonder if check down joey of the falcons is doing it.
as far as the nfl goes, anyone who is receiving a pension is going to be real quiet about this.i doubt there are going to be too many folks writing up their admissions about their times in the nfl as users, it affects their livelihood and that group is tighter than any dogfight society. i imagine they and the wwf taught baseballer’s a bit along the way. funny how baseball has been under the glare when it is huge in these other areas of life. not defending it but the notion is relevant that baseball has gotten the heat.
By bill
December 24, 2007 7:39 AM | Link to this
ncgary- I agree 100% about Tex. He’s a great player but I was against this trade from the beginning. I would offer him now, 22mil for five years. If he doesn’t accept that, trade him now. I’m tired of these selfish players.
By ncgary
December 24, 2007 7:50 AM | Link to this
yeah the sad facts doc are that mcnultys right it is eating away their insides. prolonged use will eventually eat away at their major organs prematurely, not even mentioning the mental aspects known as roid rage, but the whole emotional aspect of being on that rollercoaster of highs and lows and considering that many of the ones who fall to the prey of the enhancing drugs were probably bipolar to begin with , making the emotional impact that more troublesome, well time to hitch up the sleigh, merry christmas, still would like to see another ace in the flock for Christmas or at least another solid number 3 like a blanton
By semiballcoach
December 24, 2007 8:22 AM | Link to this
DOB——speaking of NC, why don’t you ever mention Warren Haynes?
By MEB
December 24, 2007 9:25 AM | Link to this
Merry Christmas Braves faithful! God bless everyone and that even includes you Robert. Looking forward to a great year for the denizens of DOB’s blog and of course our Atlanta Braves.
By Robert (Chipper Is The Best)
December 24, 2007 9:44 AM | Link to this
Nice to see Robert was displaying his best holiday spirit yesterday. I wonder if he sent Cox a Christmas card?
By Braveheart
December 24, 2007 9:50 AM | Link to this
I dont hate Cox.
Robert You hate Cox so much you must be a lesbian.
By David O'Brien
December 24, 2007 10:02 AM | Link to this
What do you mean, why don’t I mention Warren Haynes? I mean, I love Gov’t Mule (one of the best live bands going, with the incredible Haynes making that guitar talk) and of course, love the Allmans. But I didn’t get the last Mule album, so I didn’t have it in my top 50. And the Allmans didn’t put out a new album last year.
Allmans would be in my top 20 all-time bands, no question. And Duane Allman was just ridiculously good. And I really like most of Gregg’s solo stuff, especially the Laid Back album.
There, how’s that?
By David O'Brien
December 24, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this
Rodney, I only get to see Mr. Bisher on sporadic occasions when he comes out to the ballpark and makes his annual visit to spring training, so we really don’t get a chance to shoot the bull about the great players from North Carolina.
As I knew all the obvious ones, guys like Catfish and Gaylord and others who a kid playing Little League in North Carolina in the early 1970s would’ve heard about or idolized. But I didn’t know or had forgotten or whatever that many of the others featured in the museum were from the Tar Heel State.
By David O'Brien
December 24, 2007 10:40 AM | Link to this
Brian, sorry but I just never got into the slaw. I like the Carolina BBQ by itself or on a hamburger bun or white bread. That’s it. And yes, the hushpuppies are outstanding at Parker’s. My parents like the breadsticks more, for whatever reason, so that’s what dad ordered without conferring with me (I’d have said split it between the ‘sticks and the ‘puppies).
By McFann
December 24, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this
I don’t hate Cox
Dang. I’d hate to read Robert’s posts if he did.
I was surprised to see McCann ranked so low, as well. (No kidding, huh?) Just ‘cause Joe Mauer won a batting title everybody thinks he’s so great. McCann might’ve won one, too, if Eric Byrnes wouldn’t have run over him on May 20, 2006. That dumb guy messed up everything. (OK, I know it was an accident, but still!!) Yeah, McCann’s been maybe one step* behind Francoeur, Mini Braveheart, but that’s all. Like brian said, he’s done all this as a catcher!! Francoeur’s an outfielder, so yeah, he better hit 30 homers!! McCann’s got plenty of talent, he just keeps feeling the effects of that collision!!
Lew, ain’t it the truth!! I have lots of unfinished drawings myself. And don’t worry, I’m never gonna give up on drawing. That’s a gift that I an extremely thankful for.
By 22oz
December 24, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this
Just dropped in to say Merry Christmas everyone, hope ya’ll have a good one!
By Robert (Chipper Is The Best)
December 24, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this
Has anyone heard about Roger Clemens saying he is going to be interviewed by Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes? And?…………. He said in a video statement on his website that he would be asked some hard questions and he would answer them. He didn’t say he would answer them honestly though.
Are there really any people who believe Clemens is innocent? Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease! He is guilty as sin. If he wasn’t, he would’ve already began to sue. Besides Brian McNamee had no reason to lie. Hell, he more reason to tell the truth because the feds made it quite clear to him if they found out he was lying his punishment would be so swift and so severe it would be worse than what he could imagine in his worse nightmare.
I don’t want to hear one person defend “the Rocket” by saying McNamee is scum and lied to stay out of jail. Really? If he just named names to name names why didn’t he include Jeter, Posada, and Rivera in his accusations? Its not like any of those guys could really prove their innocence. It would have been their word against his.
Fact of the matter is Clemens is as guilty as Bonds, McGwire, Palmerio, and many others. And, Clemens will never sue because he knows he would have to testify and then he would be in the same positiion as Barry Bonds. He would have to lie on the witness stand and then that silly argument people keep making to point at “differences” between Bonds’ roid use and Clemens’ roid use (allegedly) would be moot.
By JfgHamer
December 24, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this
Hi DOB,
You say in this article that the Braves payroll is currently around $89-90m, and I assumed these figures were close to correct, until I saw Martin Gandy’s breakdown of the Braves ‘08 payroll at talking chip
He has the payroll at just below, $83m - could you poke some holes in his figures, or do the Braves actually have more money than we think?
Thanks
Jamie
By Lew
December 24, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this
DOB-I DID pick up the new Govt. Mule. You might not like it, especially if you’re looking for their Southern Rock sound. It is ver psychedlic-which is all right, but when expecting Warren Haynes throaty vocals and slide guitar, all the feedback just took me by surprise. I was so shocked that I haven’t even checked it out again.
By David O'Brien
December 24, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this
JfgHamer, just go to the last blog, I don’t want to repeat the 10-or-so-paragrah explanation. Let me know if you can’t find it and I’ll be glad to go back there and transfer that block of copy to this blog.
We already dissected that figure and pointed out the many ways it’s incorrect, including the absence of any prorated signing bonuses for Chipper and Hudson, and underestimation of many salaries from Teixeira to Infante to several young players with more than a year’s service (Moylan, K.J., etc) who won’t be making a mere $400,000 (major league minimum rises to $390,000 in 2008).
Payroll is at about $90 mill right now.
By Overlord
December 24, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this
Robert if a SH 3B that has done the following in over 80-85% of the seasons he has played is not one of the best ever, then i would like you to give me an example of one who is. Im sure you will only be able to mention HOFers (greatest ever, BTW).
BA .300+
OBP .440+
HR 25+
RBI 100+
BB 70+
KK 90-
Plus he has become second to none with the glove at 3B.
If you are able to mention 7 3B that are better than him (past or current) and that are not current or future HOFers, you will convince me Chipper is not one of the best ever.
You could also add to that CV his ability to play 3B, SS and LF. And his willing to do so and economic discounts in order to help the team (this last point adds lots of points also).
You could also add the following scenario: Imagine a survey among all MLB owners and managers over the last 14 years and ask each one of them if they would consider giving their team 3B in a straight TRADE for Chipper Jones. Could you mention more than 7 than wouldnt say yes or at least took their time discussing it? If your answer is yes…….. write them down please.
By Overlord
December 24, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this
Merry Christmas to everyone, specially DOB, Braveheart, Coach, chrisklob, Shaun, Tennessee Paul, Wayne in Utah, Gil in Mechanicsville, Jared, Yars, Lew, 22oz, Robert and any other regular i missed to mention, and even to muts fans Metroman, Drooler and Co., they deserve a break.
By Braveheart
December 24, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this
Overlord, Chipper is one of the best switch hitters of all time and one of the best third baseman of all time but he is not one of the best hitters of all time.
The only third baseman in Chipper’s league all time as a complete package are Arod, Schmidt, Mathews, Home Run Baker, Brett, Boggs.
Here is a list of the most dominant hitters of all time if you base it upon adjusted OPS+
Chipper is #52 all time on that list.
By Overlord
December 24, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this
Thats what i said Braveheart……. he is one of the best 3B ever….. if not, at least that was my point.
And if you consider the list of 3B you give me and you could be missing maybe 1 or 2 guys, thats is saying a lot considering the amount of 3B that have played the game.
And being #52 on the list you mention, also sounds as quite an achievement to me considering the amount of players that have played this game. I would have to guess that 75% of the top 75 are in the HOF. Right?
So Where does this puts chipper? not among the best ever?
By Braveheart
December 24, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this
Overlord, Merry Christmas to you as well and to everyone else. Don’t want to mention names because there are far too many to name. Alright, time to go spoil my niece.
By PopeVanIII
December 24, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this
DOB,
FWIW, Heyward cannot explicitly be included in any deal, because it’s been less than a year since he was drafted. (June 8, 2007, I believe, was the date of the Rule IV Draft.) Those guys can’t be dealt unless they are announced as a PTBNL, which can happen once it’s been 6 months since the draft.
By Chris
December 24, 2007 1:05 PM | Link to this
Braveheart: You know your third basemen, but don’t forget Jimmy Collins. He played for the Beaneaters and the Red Sox and was considered to be better than Baker, and the best third baseman of all-time before the arrival of Eddie Mathews.
I think you’re right: Chipper is right up there. As an organization, the Braves dominate this position. The top ten would have four Braves: Collins, Mathews, Darrell Evans, and Chipper.
By cricket
December 24, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this
Y’ll will love this - wild and wacky 07 season -
By cricket
December 24, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this
Sorry, the link didn’t work. Trying again- http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3165287 wacky 2007 season
By David O'Brien
December 24, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this
PopeVan, good point. That’s why that PTBNL is used so often in those situations, but I’d be shocked if the Braves had any interest in trading Heyward anyway, at least not until they know if they’ll be able to re-sign Teixeira (Heyward could be a 1B option in the future).
Anyway …
Just got back from lunch at the famous Dick’s Hot Dog Stand, a Wilson, N.C. institution since 1921. Same corner location for 86 years, and the likes of Ted Williams, Catfish Hunter and Boog Powell have dined there. Great dog with this amazing chili sauce, the likes of which I hadn’t tasted since we used to get hot dogs at a stand that was run out of a gas station across the Tar River bridge when I was a kid in Greenville.
This place has been written up in newspapers and food and travel mags everywhere, and I see why. Dog costs $1.35 and comes with chili, onions and mustard. Sublime. The story is that Campbell’s made an offer for the chili recipe years ago, and Dick’s turned it down.
Dick’s is owed by Lee Gliarmis, who’s in his 80s (his dad Socrates “Dick” Gliarmis started it) and still working behind the counter. He wouldn’t let my dad and I pay for our lunch after I mentioned that John Schuerholz recommended the place.
(Long story short: Schuerholz and Lee are good friends, because John came up here once to see the town and stadium where Schuerholz’s dad was once a star baseball player. J.S. ended up at Dick’s restaurant and they struck up a friendship, and now Schuerholz’s picture’s on the wall with all the others, from Babe Ruth to Bobby Bowden. Schuerholz came up and spoke at their annual Dick’s Hot Stove Banquet a few years ago. Big baseball folks up here, they helped start and run the N.C. baseball museum I mentioned yesterday. Joey Devine, an N.C. boy who went to State, was one of the speakers at the banquet last year.)
By JerseyGil
December 24, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this
DOB, And All the regular blogger* **FELIZ NAVIDAD MARRY CHRISTMAS
From me to You all…And Happy BRAVES .
By bruce
December 24, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this
Dave, A good buddy of mine from college is from Plymouth… He probably took me to Parkers and he was real clear on his Q preferences too, a good thing. Memorable was fishing in the swamps near Plymouth and having to shoot the copperheads in the brush before they fell into the boat when we drifted into the bush…could shoot pistol with one hand but more difficult to paddle one handed and still fish. never seen so many snakes… swamp was up so they were all in the branches. Didn’t catch many fish, but he did emphasize not to shoot the snake if it fell into the boat, he said, use the paddle and pocket knife once pinned down. Learned alot on that trip. Thanks, Bruce
By rich brave
December 24, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this
DAVE:
If you’re in the Wilson area and you like BBQ Eastern N.C. style try RALPH’S just north @ I-95 and U.S. 158. Take the WELDON Exit and go east two lights. Its on the left of 158. If you’re an eastern N.C. boy you may already know of it. I’m from southeastern Va. so I’m familiar with Barton. We played most of the small N.C. schools in college. I went to Frederick in Portsmouth, Va. Have a good holiday.
By David O'Brien
December 24, 2007 2:31 PM | Link to this
Bruce, that’s quite a story. Better you than me. Do you remember the name of the place? I’m guessing it was the Great Dismal Swamp? (that stretches between NC and Virginia)
By StingerSplash
December 24, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this
DOB, Is Dick’s soiree the same Hot Stove banquet Millwood spoke at a few years ago? I know there’s a rousing such affair every winter in that part of the world. Wasn’t sure if there was one, two or many hot stove banquets there. I don’t figure you’ll up dressing up as Santa Man in Black — you’ve got to check out what your colleague Edes has done on boston.com. Merry Christmas to all denizens.
By rich brave
December 24, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this
Dave:
Grew up on the western edge of the Great Dismal. No Copperheads, but some nasty water snakes - cottonmouth mocassins. My buddy saved me from steppiung on one in a Cypress grove once. 63”s long after we killed it. I was 12. Probably wouldn’t have survived that bite. We we walking-no vehicles. Would have had to wait for help. Probably would have been too late to do any good.
By David O'Brien
December 24, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this
StingerSplash, I didn’t see Millwood’s name on the list of former speakers (which included Stan Musial, Bob Uecker, the real “Crash” Davis, Joe West, Ernie Johnson, Gaylord Perry, Schuerholz, and many others.
There are several of these Hot Stove Leagues, part of an informal national network of baseball fans. The Wilson Hot Stove League raises money to support baseball in Wilson County, from Little Leagues to college ball. They helped remodel the stadium, which looks great now and hosts a Carolina summer-league team.
By mo in the boonies
December 24, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this
Braveheart I’m not going to waste my time arguing with you anymore about Mitchell, it is obvious you are so prejudiced against him, and the report that it is of no use to argue. One has to wonder though, where all the venomous attitude is coming from…it wasn’t your millions, and the report didn’t name you, so what’s got you so hot and bothered about it? Just the fact that I think he did the best job he could under the conditions he had to work under?? You think he didn’t, and I think he did, we are both entitled to our opinions. Maybe you could volunteer to be the investigator the next time, since you know how to do it so well. I’m sure Congress will be very impressed with your efforts.
nOLIE Interesting article. I noticed in the next to last paragraph, he said that he was surprised he was the only one who talked to the investigators. He thought there would be a lot more. He must have been the only one whose conscience was bothering him.
Robert I’d like to take you up on that bet, but I can’t, because I happen to agree with you.
Merry Christmas and a happier New Year…. to the whole country. Yeah, even Cox.
By David O'Brien
December 24, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this
RichBrave, I’ll make note of that. haven’t been to Ralph’s. You try Smithfield’s BBQ in that area, and if so, is it as good?
By rich brave
December 24, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this
DAVE:
Not personally, but have a good friend who brokers small business sales in n.e. N.C. His taste in BBQ is about like mine and swears by Ralph’s, AND one in SMITHFIELD - can’t remember the name right off.
By McFann
December 24, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this
Mo!! I’m disappointed in you!!
By bruce
December 24, 2007 4:22 PM | Link to this
Dave, no I do not know if it was part of Great Dismal Swamp or not, it was pretty close to Plymouth though. This snake shooting did not seem as crazy (as long as we had enough ammmo) as airboating real fast in the Glades at night and seeing the alligator eyes reflecting back at you from all over… driver would hit berms of dirt and go airborn for a moment… that seemed out of control to me, I was glad to survive that and not be lunch. Thanks, Bruce
PS I have two e-mails now back from StubHub saying no to my opening game coup, but am trying back by quoting their own FAQ re date changes and asking to be escalated to a manager.
By McFann
December 24, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this
Cox ROX!!
By ncgary
December 24, 2007 4:41 PM | Link to this
millwood is from besserner city , gastonia area , thats probably where that hot stove banquet was
By brian
December 24, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this
Country BBQ in Greensboro is top notch as is a family owned place in High Point (I am blanking on the name right now).
By R1U
December 24, 2007 4:48 PM | Link to this
Baseball players are entertainers with a skill no different than a very talented musician with a skill. Do we stop buying musicians’ work because of their desire to have an edge? Whatever it is. As long as there are oceans of $$$ waiting to be had, there will be the perceived need to have an edge. If school bus drivers were paid as much, and the job was competitive, they would be looking for an edge. Fans support the game…stop the holier than thou B.S. Cobb, Ruth, et al. had their toddies…during prohibition do we go after their accomplishments….greenies in the 80’s…Rose, Schmidt et al..OH PLEASE…competition, competition, competition….for chrissakes we live in a compete to eat society…give it up already!!! Happy Holidays!!! R1U
By McFann
December 24, 2007 5:03 PM | Link to this
Oh, BTW, I can’t give you any perspective on that movie…I’ve never even heard of it!
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL, and to all………some Good Eats!!
“Haven’t had a chance like that in years, I had to try it.”
By Metropolitan Man
December 24, 2007 5:53 PM | Link to this
Never leave your nuts alone!!!
A doctor at an insane asylum decided to take his patients to a baseball game. For weeks in advance, he coached his patients to respond to his commands. When the day of the game arrived everything went quite well. As the National Anthem started, the doctor yelled, “Up Nuts”, and the patients complied by standing up. After the anthem, he yelled, “Down Nuts”, and they all sat back down in their seats. After a home run was hit, the doctor yelled, “Cheer Nuts”. They all broke out into applause and cheered. When the umpire made a particularly bad call against the star of the home team, the Doctor yelled, “Booooo Nuts” and they all started booing and cat calling. Comfortable with their response, the doctor decided to go get a beer and a hot dog, leaving his assistant in charge. When he returned, there was a riot in progress. Finding his tizzied assistant, the doctor asked, “What in the world happened?” The assistant replied, “Well everything was going just fine until this guy walked by and yelled, “PEANUTS!”
HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL AND CELBRATE NOW, CELBRATE LATER, AND REMEMBER TO SPREAD LOVE….THE GENUINE KIND, NOT THE FLUFF!!!!
By JR Bob Dobbs
December 24, 2007 6:41 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB, Small world that you’re from Wilson. I lived in the Raleigh during the mid-90s and had a friend going to Barton College (defending Men’s D-II Basketball National Champs as I’ll bet you know), so I’ve spent some time in Wilson.
On the subject of Wilson’s culinary delights ASIDE from BBQ (since I could write way too much on the virtures of Eastern Carolina Cue vs Western NC/Lexington-style vs what I consider GA BBQ vs others)…
Great to read about Dick’s - what a classic place that is. Do they still have their slogan? I believe it goes: “If you like wieners, you’ll love Dick’s!”
Also, have you been to the Rib Room, and is it still around (I recall that it is on Nash Street)? Definitely not a Ruth’s Chris/Mortons-style power place for a steak, but man, what awesome Eastern NC-style ambiance, and damned cheap prices to boot.
Just to tie this back to baseball and the Braves, I remember driving back to Raleigh from Wilson on hwy 264/64 on an October night (28th I believe) in ‘95 listening to the Braves win Game Six of the World Series…
By McFann
December 24, 2007 6:57 PM | Link to this
MetMan……DISTURBING!!!!
By Robert (Chipper Is The Best)
December 24, 2007 8:48 PM | Link to this
I just want to wish everyone here a Merry Christmas! It is so much fun to be able to converse about Braves baseball and various other topics with you guys. I do hope you get whatever you wanted this Christmas and that you have a great one. And, Robert, I do hope you get that life-sized personally autographed poster of Bobby Cox you have been asking for. I know it would make you so happy! :)
By David O'Brien
December 24, 2007 9:24 PM | Link to this
We saw another solid movie tonight — Charlie Wilson’s War. Very entertaining; serious movie but also hilarious. Hanks is great as sd alcoholic Texas congressman, but Philip Seymor Hoffman is phenomenal and steals every scene he’s in….
JR Bob Dobbs, sad to say the Rib Room isn’t open in Wilson anymore. I’m told it was an excellent joint, located in an old hotel downtown.
By the way, I’m not from Wilson. I was born in Durham and raised in Greenville. My dad got moved a couple of times for work, to Memphis, then Kansas, then Montgomery, Ala., and finally they moved back to North Carolina after all the meatpacking houses he worked at closed one after another and he decided to hell with it, he’d get in another line of work in his semi-retirement.
Anyway, they’ve lived here for about a decade, which makes it cool when we go visit them because they’re so close to where we grew up (Wilson’s only about a half-hour from Greenville. And most of my relatives live in North Carolina in Oxford, Greenville, and other places within an hour of here.
By Darren
December 25, 2007 12:00 AM | Link to this
Merry Christmas DOB! You have made my year more enjoyable with your articles and blogs. Great Job. Go Braves. Vote for Dale Murphy for President of the United States of America. God Bless.
By JimD
December 25, 2007 12:40 AM | Link to this
DOB good to hear more about Eastern NC. My wife and I lived in Wendell 96-98. We moved there 3 weeks before Fran and rode it out in a mobile home. Winds were 80 mph. Fun!
We took in several Mudcats games while we were there. I have a friend who at the time was with the G-Braves and we got comps every time they came to town. Pretty cool ballpark and game experience. Anyway, we loved the area and would move back in a heartbeat.
By Wayne in Utah
December 25, 2007 2:56 AM | Link to this
Merry Christmas to all Braves fans on the blog. It is late here in Utah, and we had an incredibly white Christmas eve. Me and my Jeep got 3 folks out of trouble today! Did my good deed x 3.
Hope tomorrow (today, actually) is all that you hope it to be.
Son #3 is getting a hot BC Rich electric guitar, that he is expecting. He is learning “Jessica” and is probably going to be a better player than his dad, who is OK. I will get out the old Gibson ES175D tomorrow, and we will have a rockin good time together.
DOB Thanks for a fun year, and is there any such bad BBQ??? I have lived in SC, TEX, MS, UT, CA and traveled all around this great country of ours, and I haven’t discovered BBQ I didn’t like. I guess mustard based hog is my fav though.
Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!
By Wayne in Utah
December 25, 2007 2:59 AM | Link to this
Darren I second that notion for Dale Murphy for Prez. Thanks to my friend Lew, Dale’s picture hangs right above my home office desk!
By doug
December 25, 2007 7:46 AM | Link to this
Dave, thanks for the info for all these years. I am a baseball junkie, and a Braves junkie and really enjoy the inside info you provide.
Cool to see you spent some time in Montgomery al. I moved here in 91, that’s when I became a Braves fan. Grew up a Brewers and Cubs fan in So. Wisc. Montgomery has a really cool ballpark downtown where the Biscuits play. I go see Miss every chance I get
Best game of the year, Miss was winning big, Biscuits come up and tie it in the bottom of the eighth. Top 9, Brandon Jones triples in the go ahead run with two outs. Montgomery wins with a two out walk off homer in the bottom half. Great game, as we had my companies luxury box that night also.
I saw Brandon Jones up close several times this year and he does seem like the real deal. Joey closed out some impressive games for them too, and i saw Reyes dominate a game against Montgomery.
Do the Braves ever mention Esquival for left field? That dude hits some absolute bombs this year.
Anyways Merry Christmas to all, I am just sitting here with the laptop, tree lights on, packages on the floor, waiting for the kids to wake up. Enjoy the holiday everyone.
By itsouttahere
December 25, 2007 8:49 AM | Link to this
MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL FROM CHINA! These communists don’t celebrate Christmas…
Not fun being 1/2 way around the world at Christmas time!! Be thankful if you are with your family!!!
Concerned about Glavine, Hampton, etc… can’t wait for Spring Training!
Thanks for all the fun reading!! What a great blog…makes great reading in a not-so-great part of the world!!
By Braveheart
December 25, 2007 8:58 AM | Link to this
Bah humbug.
By David O'Brien
December 25, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this
Merry Christmas to all, in the States, in China and everywhere else.
Doug, Esquivel’s got great power in the minors, but not being considered for LF at this time. I guess you’d be more qualified than me and most others here to tell folks exactly why the Braves are so high on Brandon Jones. You’ve seen him change games the way the Braves believe he can in the future, perhaps the near future….
Darren, I think you might be onto something in the Murph-for-Prez sentiment….
By bill
December 25, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this
I believe I read somewhere that Esquivel is no longer in the Braves system. Isn’t he the one that was suspended and always in trouble? Not 100% sure. He was a good prospect.
By Steve from OH
December 25, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this
Merry Christmas from Big 10 Country everyone! Thanks for all the hard work DOB.
By AdirondackDave
December 25, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this
Merry Christmas to one and all this morning and a special thanks to Dave who provides way more good Braves info and in a timely way than anybody else on the web. Counting down the days until we get to see Chipper, Tex, and the guys in a few spring training games in south Florida… It’s going to be weird, though, looking out toward center field.
By tlj
December 25, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this
The most recent edition of Baseball America listed Esquivel as being released by the Braves.
By Gil in Mechanicsville
December 25, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this
Merry Christmas DOB, I hope you have joyous and happy holiday.
Now, I have a favor to ask….. Could you try to get an update on Martin Prado and Gregor Blanco. Maybe JerseyGill could translate some of the reports from the winter leagues but it appears Gregor is having a great season with the bat as well as the glove. It is just very hard for me to decipher the numbers as I am not always sure which player they are referring to.
Gregor has been with the Braves since he was 16 so he is still pretty young even though he has been in the system for a long while. A lot of the press has been about Anderson but from what I can gather Gregor is really making a positive impression.
By Lew
December 25, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this
FaLaLaLaLa, Y’all-heard Murph being interviewed on XM Home Plate last night. He thinks anyone who tests positive from here on out needs to lose his career right then and there. He thinks that will deter any moron from using again. Could be.
DOB-Only saw Brandon Jones a bit during Spring Training games and up with the Braves late last year. I liked what I saw. He’s a good line drive to the gap guy with speed and good defense. I am mystified why so many have dissed him just because he didn’t hit like a superstar in 25 AB’s. Give the guy a chance. There is a reason he will be in left for a long time in Atlanta.
By David O'Brien
December 25, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this
Lew, in a perfect world (or even close to perfect), Murph’s idea would be adopted by baseball. You’ve been warned: Test positive and be banned for life.
It’ll never happen, but it should. Enough’s enough….
And I’m with you on B. Jones — if he’d have had, say, two more hits in those 19 at-bats with the big club last season, would some folks be so eager to trade him? The kid’s got star potential, and at worst will be a solid role player for a long time (I think he’ll be closer to star than role player, but we’ll see. Point is, 19 at-bats — especially the first 19 at-bats in the majors — is narely even a sample worth dissecting or analyzing).
Now, 59 extra-base hits and 100 RBIs last season in the minors, that’s worth analyzing. He’s a hitter, no doubt….
Gil, as we’ve noted, Blanco has raised his stock in the organization over the past year, with his season in the minors and his winter ball campaign. At this point, his exact winter-ball stats aren’t going to matter — he’s made his point, and put himself in position for consideration in spring training. But at this point, it’s just going to matter what he does in front of the Braves’ eyes in spring training, compared to others like Anderson. I can say with some assurance that he’s going to have to have a strong spring, and Anderson a lesser spring, for Blanco to get the CF job.
But he’s going to get a shot to show what he can do this spring, because he’s earned that shot in the Braves eyes.
As for Prado, what he does this winter isn’t going to make a difference. The Braves know what they have with him, at this point. If their decision’s not already made on that last utility spot, then it’ll be made based on competition this spring, and not winter-ball stats.
By choppinmama
December 25, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this
My favorite song of the day:
Happy Birthday to Jesus….and ME, Happy Birthday to Jesus….and ME, Happy Birthday to Jesus….and ME, Happy Birthday to Jesus….and Meeeeee!
A very Merry Christmas to DOB and all of you folks out there that make this blog such great fun and a “must visit” every day. To those of you who don’t celebrate the day, my best wishes for a peaceful and happy day spent with family and good friends.
And to all in the Braves organization that may check in here from time to time - thanks from this fan for all of your hard work throughout the year.
And, thanks to my family for all my Braves loot under the tree!
By Overlord
December 25, 2007 2:43 PM | Link to this
Looks like Massachusetts is gonna win the 2007 Triple Crown. Red Sox Swept. Celtics are playing like old Celtics and Pats Unbeaten.
Which was the last state or city to do so?
By TNRON
December 25, 2007 6:08 PM | Link to this
DOB,Didnt the Braves release Esquivel?
By David-ATL14
December 25, 2007 6:30 PM | Link to this
Yes Esquivel was released from the organization after his second suspension for reasons not commented on by the Braves heirarchy.
Was sent home(for the season’s duration) at the midpoints of two different minor league seasons.
By Braveheart
December 25, 2007 9:08 PM | Link to this
overlord, probably 1969 in NYC with mets, jets, knicks
By David O'Brien
December 25, 2007 9:49 PM | Link to this
David-ATL, TNRON, Esquivel was placed on the restricted list in September, and I believe you’re right about him being released a month or so ago. Frankly, he’s had so many disciplinary problems that it’s a blur to me now, and I think they released him without fanfare well before the winter meetings.
I was going to say when asked about him as a LF possibility that he’d shown good power in the minors, but had so many attitude/behavior problems that he wasn’t a candidate for a spot with the major league team, but then thought I’d better check first on the team’s current view of him.
Then David-ATL’s mention reminded me that yes, I think he was released after the season, finally.
What a waste of talent, that burly kid’s been.
By Overlord
December 25, 2007 10:49 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, as a matter of fact i have checked on that and i think it was 1981:
49ers
Dodgers
Lakers
But it still is 2.5 decades.
By itsouttahere
December 26, 2007 3:55 AM | Link to this
Who was that??? Los Angeles 49ers?? LOL Maybe the San Francisco Rams, Dodgers and Jerry West and Co. pulled it off…
What country is this, anyway…??
By Gil in Mechanicsville
December 26, 2007 5:50 AM | Link to this
Good morning all, Thanks David for the insight. Gregor is not the “Superstar” stud with the can’t miss label we have grown accustom to. However, it appears he has turned the corner in his ability. I am anxious to see how things play out in spring training as I have not seen Anderson play.
I would not put Blanco in the same category with an Andruw Jones but then, I am not sure Andruw is in that category any longer. Gregor does possess an above average arm and very good range to his right, “better than to his left”. It was his bat which kept him on the farm.
In thinking about his moves to his left, perhaps it is his crossover step that is lacking, that could also explain his relative lack of success in the base stealing department.
It also appears that Prado has added another ten pounds to his playing weight. Now being listed as 200 lbs. Not a bad thing for a guy primarily used as a second or third baseman.
Only 7 more weeks until catchers and pitchers report.
By ncscoots
December 26, 2007 6:29 AM | Link to this
Well, Blanco’s winter league has at least caused me to go from no-chance to wait-and-see. Based on what I had seen of him in the past, I would have said that ML pitching would have knocked the bat out of his hands, but maybe he’s just matured.
Even so, I’m still not crazed about the idea of starting two rooks in the OF, and I can’t imagine the Braves are, either. The offense is going to be inexperienced enough, as it is. I would think that mitigates against a youngster in CF, so here’s hoping Wren has an under-the-radar move in the works.
Hope all you folks had a pleasant Christmas! Let’s turn the calendar, and start marking off the days until PCR.
By Overlord
December 26, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this
By Overlord
December 25, 2007 2:43 PM | Link to this
Looks like Massachusetts is gonna win the 2007 Triple Crown. Red Sox Swept. Celtics are playing like old Celtics and Pats Unbeaten.
Which was the last state or city to do so?
itsouttahere, its not my fault if they didnt teach you in kinder garden that san francisco is part of the same state as LA.
Anyway what can i expect if you are not able to read well.
Some people should put their minds to work before type ·$%&&%”·)”%& things, trying to look like genius and looking like complete %&·$//&%· instead. Merry Christmas itsouttahere.
By itsouttahere
December 26, 2007 10:09 AM | Link to this
Well, let’s make a federal case out of it, shall we?
I always enjoy reading your posts…
Calif. has enough pro teams that certainly they perhaps would be the likely culprits to have managed your “State” Triple Crown sweepstakes. Although I doubt Californians would be all that impressed if the Kings won the NBA title, the Raiders the Super Bowl, and the Padres the World Series…
I wonder if Atlanta will ever miraculously see the Braves, Hawks, Falcons pull it off. Not looking too good, is it?
Merry Christmas to you too!!
By Braveheart
December 26, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this
Calvin Johnson could have been the Braves centerfielder for 2008
By Overlord
December 26, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this
Well itsouttahere, there are ways to express your personal opinion and the opinion you think californians could have. I was not talking about what californians would think about raiders as NFL champions. Anyway, your opinion is fine with me, thats why we are here, to read others opinions, arent we.
By the way, i dont see the problem if Raiders win the Superbowl. They are one of the more successful franchises in the NFL, not to mention prosports.
By Overlord
December 26, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this
itsouttahere…… everything is ok.
By Overlord
December 26, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this
itsouttahere…… everything is ok.
By nOLIE
December 26, 2007 12:26 PM | Link to this
Since my schedule will not allow me to see any more new movies the last wek of the year, I’ll include my 10 favorite 2007 movies. I saw an advanced copy of There Will Be Blood. It is awesome but I think it is scheduled as a 2008 release. The best movie I have seen in years. 2007 No Country For Old Men Before The Devil Knows You’re Dead Michael Clayton Superbad Ratatouille Zodiac Rescue Dawn Bourne Ultimatum The Assassination of Jesse James Transformers
By cricket
December 26, 2007 12:26 PM | Link to this
We should include hockey in the state crown combo. Thrashers will definitely have better chance than Falcons. We also have some good cricket teams in GA, may be able to beat NY/NJ teams for that crown :)
By Overlord
December 26, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this
Thats the funniest joke for 2007, nice, looks like AJC brought a clown for holidays. Merry Christmas!!!
By Overlord
December 26, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this
nolie how good is that jesse james movie?
By Overlord
December 26, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this
Has anyone signed Mazzone yet?
By beachcomber
December 26, 2007 1:09 PM | Link to this
Belated Merry Christmas to you DOB and all the guys and gals who make this blog so enjoyable.
A thought and a question before my bride and I leave sunny Florida for a few days in the NC Smokies.
First, the Braves team calendar that hangs annually in our kitchen has, by my daughter’s count five guys who are no longer Braves. And we are one of the more stable teams!
Second, why has B. Pena seemed to fallen out of favor with the Braves? Seems to have a decent stick, worked hard in Florida when we saw him last year and offers some defensive options. Just wondering.
Happy New Year everyone. Catch ya when we return from the booming metropolis of Otto, NC.
By mo in the boonies
December 26, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this
McFann Disappointed in me? Because I happen to think that Cox is not the brightest crayon in the box? Perhaps all the people on here who think he is so great will just have to wait until he is gone, and see how the team does, to make a final judgment. I happen to think they would be better off without him, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It would be a boring world if we all thought alike on everything. Did you say Rock Cox. (as in stoning) :-) BTW, I love McCann! (Does that get me out of the dog house?) Hope you had a great Christmas with your family.
By TBraveFan
December 26, 2007 1:50 PM | Link to this
Hey Choppinmama!
I got a nice Christmas present - got an ST season pak with parking! Sent you an em on it…. Didn’t know it was your birthday too - so Happiest of Birthdays and New Years - and of course I hope you had the Merriest Christmas ever!
Are you coming up for Fan Fest??? Give me a holler back!!!
By McFann
December 26, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this
No, mo, I did not say “rock Cox”, I said “Cox Rox”—as in, “He rules.” Hey, I have to be honest, I don’t always understand what he does.
Thanks, we did have a nice Christmas. (Got my McCann jersey : D ) Hope you had a good Christmas, too.
Ah, don’t worry. I don’t hold grudges against someone just because they don’t like Cox. If I did, I sure would miss my Grandpa. LOL!!
By mo in the boonies
December 26, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this
McFann I envy you your McCann jersey. Lucky girl! Tell Grandpa I said he must be a smart guy. ;-)
By McFann
December 26, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this
Don’t worry mo, I’ll tell ‘im!! ; )
By DAP
December 26, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this
McFann hey man, you’d love one of the gifts i got. my father-in-law got me a game used bat signed by brian mccann. its pretty sweet. its got #16 on the bottom of the handle and the top of the barrel, and on the bottom of the handle he printed his name in tiny letter, as well as signing the barrel.
my dad-in-law won it at an FCA auction. now, when mccann is up to bat, ill be standing in my living room mimicking him.
By TD
December 26, 2007 4:23 PM | Link to this
Other than the players that use steriods, Selig is the biggest Cancer to the game. He is joke of a commisioner. Owners want him because they are afraid to get a “Real” Commisioner in the seat. Selig is their puppet.
By Gil in Mechanicsville
December 26, 2007 4:51 PM | Link to this
TD Well duh…..
By McFann
December 26, 2007 5:00 PM | Link to this
DAP, that’s awesome!!
BTW, I liked your subtle use of capital letters. : P
By DonCoburleone
December 26, 2007 7:03 PM | Link to this
DOB I was reading your summary of the 2008 Bill James handbook on the Braves… Sounds about right to me. I definately see the Braves young positional players as being in the Top 7 or 8 in all of baseball with our young pitching being in the bottom 4 or 5. Obviously nobody is perfect when it comes to player evaluation, but Bill James is about as good as it gets.
DOB what other things do you read when it comes to player evaluation and statistical analysis?
By David O'Brien
December 26, 2007 7:13 PM | Link to this
Just git back from Oxford, N.C., and another feast at my aunt’s house. Enough eating in the past two days to require the next two weeks to work it off. But that woman can make some mean turnip salad and fried cornbread, and my uncle’s country ham is sinfully salty and good….
Terrible broadband card reception from my folks’ house here in Wilson, N.C., so posting isn’t easy. Going back home to Atlanta on Thursday, and I’ll file a new blog by Friday….
Overlord, I’ve heard that Jesse James movie was excellent, and it got great reviews despite lukewarm (at best) ticket sales. Studio did it no favors in its promotion (or lack thereof) of the movie.
No, Mazzone hasn’t been hired.
By DonCoburleone
December 26, 2007 7:36 PM | Link to this
Friggin Dayn Perry, the guy is a real genius… He has a column up about the biggest “impact” rookies heading into 2008… Of course it is loaded with big market teams (Yanks, Sox, Dodgers, Cubs) and ridiculous hype (like basically guaranteeing that Clay Bucholz will win 1 or 2 Cy Youngs before he retires). Dayn Perry
By Overlord
December 26, 2007 9:19 PM | Link to this
OK DOB, i think ill have to check that movie. I like westerns, i have the feeling i should miss that one.
Catch you later……..
By Curt
December 26, 2007 10:02 PM | Link to this
Does anyone know if you can still buy those blue Hank Aaron tshirt jerseys?
And if so where?
By TNRON
December 26, 2007 10:05 PM | Link to this
DOB.Ive got a true story that happened Christmas Eve.One of my best friends was on his way to a Christmas Eve church service when his youngest son,an infant, awoke and started crying.Nothing seemed to console the child.Then his firstborn son,around age 4,said “put on some Johnny Cash”.He did and the infant instantly quieted and did not make another peep the rest of the way.Hope you enjoy this story.
By David O'Brien
December 26, 2007 10:58 PM | Link to this
TNRON, I loved that story….
nOLIE, “There Will Be Blood” is a 2007 movie officially, with Dec. 26 release in New York/LA.
Can’t wait to see it. Just viewing the trailer, it looks so intense, and I’ve read nothing but terrific reviews for it. I hear Daniel Day-Lewis has outdone himself with this part.
Also hear the soundtrack by Jonny Greenwood (of Radiohead) is outstanding.
By Nolie
December 27, 2007 12:43 AM | Link to this
nolie how good is that jesse james movie?Overlord
depends on your tolerance for long dramatic character studies. it is 160 minutes long. shot beautifully. if you are interested in the subject(which I am) you will probably like it, but it is slow and a little aimless at times.I’d give it a 7.5 out of 10, but a friend was bored.
By Nolie
December 27, 2007 12:53 AM | Link to this
nOLIE, “There Will Be Blood” is a 2007 movie officially, with Dec. 26 release in New York/LA.DOB
then I’d rate it the best movie of 2007. it is incredibly intense. what a monster Lewis is.
Overlord you might like 3:10 To Yuma remake more than Assassination of JJ.
By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)
December 27, 2007 1:28 AM | Link to this
50 more days until we hear the words : Pitchers and catchers report.
By itsouttahere
December 27, 2007 6:22 AM | Link to this
I really can’t agree with the Cox slammers… Bobby sure seems to have the respect of the players, and everything I have ever heard has said the players love playing for him. And his wins as a manager are 4th or 5th all time, aren’t they? Not sure what else the guys gotta do!!!
Second guessing managerial decisions has to be one of the easiest things in the world to do!
Don’t forget all these players, B. Cox, etc… are real people… and you never know who is browsing in here!
I’m hooked on this blog… I can get all sorts of cool Braves stuff here in S. China… I am guessing this is where the goods are produced…
By Coach(Lets Go Braves In 2008)
December 27, 2007 6:26 AM | Link to this
Hers is a nice article from Bill Shanks on the state of the Braves prospects.
Braves prospects
By Coach(Lets Go Braves In 2008)
December 27, 2007 6:36 AM | Link to this
http://orioles.scout.com/a.z?s=251&p=2&c=707264
By nOLIE
December 27, 2007 7:39 AM | Link to this
Hers is a nice article from Bill Shanks on the state of the Braves prospects.Coach
yeah, ol’ Mr. Homer Shanks. guy never met a Braves’ prospect that he couldn’t fall in love with. Has hyped dozens of players over the years who never did anything.
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 27, 2007 9:13 AM | Link to this
Let me get this straight , nolie. Your trying to start an argument with me over an article written by Bill Shanks ?
Get a life and FU.
By Braveheart
December 27, 2007 9:20 AM | Link to this
Get a life and FU
it’s beginning to feel alot like christmas……..
By Lew
December 27, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this
nOLIE-I won’t come out all defgensive like Coach here, but I’ve got to ask you-Exactly where do you disagree with Shanks’ evaluation and why? Quite honestly, Dude, I see nothing in his assessment that differs much from my own, with the exception that I feel Rohrbough is another year or so away from the bigs. Otherwise, I think he’s pretty much on the mark. It still mystifies me how so many can be so down on our pitching when a closer look at what these kids have done and are doing in the minors-plus what most others say about them-indicates that we have a great group of young pitchers up and coming. Hell-he didn’t even mention Thomas Hanson, who may be the best of the bunch-a power pitcher who is striking out damn near everyone he comes in contact with. For crying out loud-our rookie team led the Appalachain League in ERA.
By ken sly
December 27, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this
Now I know why the taste in music is similar. My wife is from Wilson so I have been going there for 10 years…and have eaten my fair share of Parkers & Dick’s Hot Dogs. Da*n! I want one now!
By timmythebrave
December 27, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this
I think too much blame and credit goes to managers. A good coach puts his players in where they think they have the best chance of succeeding. I think that Cox has put his players in position to win. We won more division titles in a row than anyone in the history of sport. It isn’t easy to win world series you know especially when you are using half or 3/4 the payroll as the top guys in the league. If you want only world series rings and a terrible franchise than the Marlins are your team. If Cox is such a bad manager why is he headed to the HOF and everybody in baseball loves working with him. He will be voted in on his 1st try which says something in my book.
By McFann
December 27, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this
I agree with you, timmythebrave. You raise a very good point. If a team does real great, people say it’s the manager. If a team does real bad, people say it’s the manager’s fault. It’s like Hopper said to Princess Adda in Bug’s Life, “The first rule of leadership: Everything is your fault!”
By TennesseePaul
December 27, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this
Going back home to Atlanta on Thursday
So DOB’s on the road to Atlanta today. We’ll see about that. I’ve got a killer rental that could affectively block him. I’ll beat him yet!
Looking forward to getting there. The High Museum has the Louvre and Impressionism tour. Just saw the Andrew Wyeth collection in Greenville with Jasper Johns work.
That Shanks article didn’t really inspire. It highlighted some of the less inspiring pitchers. JoJo who is at least a year away from being an affective MLB pitcher. A journy man reliever turned starter who’s out of options. A so-far-journyman minor league starter who just now had a good season. A reliever that melted down in the minor league post season, so much so it makes Hoffman look like Rivera. And a couple of othe question marks. The article simply highlighted the trouble the Braves have. How to bridge the gap to the youngsters? Not all of these kids will be good. Not all of them will be ready at the same time, and even if they were, would anyone want a rotation of rookies in Atlanta? Didn’t think so. The veteran presence to bridge this gap is becoming thinner and thinner. Smoltz is still good, yes. I’ll never doubt the man. It’s just that, he’ll have to retire sooner or later and at 40+ that will be sooner than later. Hudson has a few more seasons left as a Brave, but there there are 3 spots open. Rookies around to fill them. Should make for a few more play-off-less seasons. Unless, of course, the Braves acquire a young, major league prove, quality, number one starter. That’d give them three tops and two spots to ease the young guys in.
Oh yeah. Payroll.
That was for you Lew!
By McFann
December 27, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I’m ready for a new blog.
By itsouttahere
December 27, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this
McFann… you are much smarter than your years…
By Robert (Justice Is The Best)
December 27, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this
10Paul, it is funny how two people can read something and take away totally different conclusions. I actually thought the Shanks article was uplifiting. He seemed to be throwing some accolades toward the pitching. He said the same thing about Brayan Pena that most of us have been saying. He also seemed to reitterate what DOB had been saying about Lillibridge and that is that he seems to be ready.
I think the farm system is in decent shape.
By David O'Brien
December 27, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this
TennPaul, I’m flying home, not driving. So there’s no stopping me with your “killer rental,” brother.
As for your doom-and-gloom pitching scenario, I just ain’t feeling it, man. Sorry, just can’t work up a lot of doomsday feelings like you have over the next few years. The next few years? Haven’t you learned by now that it’s entirely pointless to try to figure out things THIS year, much less in the next few years?
Or did you have St. Louis winning the 2006 World Series, and Colorado winning the 2007 NL pennant, and the Yankees not sniffing a World Series title for as long as they have, or Arizona getting to the playoffs last year?
The only reason you have to doubt Smoltz is age, not performance. Simply compare his numbers the last couple years with all the top young guys you’d like the Braves to pursue.
When they need an ace to replace Smoltz and Hudson, the Braves have the pieces to acquire one in a trade a year from now. Relax, man. Nobody who knows the game would rate the Braves’ starters anywhere lower than the top five in the NL right now, for the 2008 season. To worry about beyond 2008 is pointless, because the team’s entire philosophy, its payroll, its manager, its top pitchers, could change between now and then. Injuries, unexpected levels of success or failure, etc, can influence a lot of decisions, TennPaul.
Teams play for the here and now, this season, and most (exception: yankees) also try to do so without purging all of their top prospects in the process.
By McFann
December 27, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this
Gee wiz, itsouttahere, I don’t know where you got that idea from, but thank you. Seems to me I’ve only proven to Gil that I am capable of running “with the big dogs,” as he put on December 7 at 5:22 PM. But smarter than my years? Wow. That’s a huge complement. You can believe it if you want to ; D. No, really, I appreciate that.
Ya know, that’s what some people say about McCann’s baseball instincts……
By nOLIE
December 27, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this
Let me get this straight , nolie. Your trying to start an argument with me over an article written by Bill Shanks ?
Get a life and FU.Coach
ooh such language, you need to work on those anger issues coach. Not good for your blood pressure. Don’t want you stroking out on me if I mention Shanks again. Anyway how do you see it as an argument? All I did was reply that Shanks is the ultimate homer which is certainly true if you have paid any attention at all to his writings over the years. A comment about him is not an argument with you unless you are simply paranoid . Tsk Tsk. Grow up lil’ Bubba.
By Carroll
December 27, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this
DOB (or anyone): when do the Braves spring training tix go on sale? Do you have to buy tix to go see them in camp when they’re just conditioning (before the actual scrimmage games start)? Any info/advice is appreciated!
By nOLIE
December 27, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this
nOLIE-I won’t come out all defgensive like Coach here, but I’ve got to ask you-Exactly where do you disagree with Shanks’ evaluation and why? Quite honestly, Dude, I see nothing in his assessment that differs much from my own
I didn’t say that I disagreed with anything in the article. My point was that the guy has spent years printing exactly the same kind of stuff and much of it has been totally wrong. He is a joke with anyone out of the Braves’ system. Some of what he says will come true like a blind hog and for much the same reason. . The truth is I think so low of him as a source that I didn’t even really study what he said this time. He is nothing but a parrot of what he hears from Braves’ sources. Has no ability at all to really analyze players on his own. Sorry if I hurt anyone’s feelings, but the guy is a total homer. I’m not gonna spend the time looking for articles from him in previous years, but I remember that he said the Betemit was another Chipper, that Hessman was a budding allstar firstbaseman and so many other totally ignorant predictions that I can’t hear his name without LMAO.
By Shaun
December 27, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this
TennPaul, Braves have a solid core of young players at position that aren’t exactly easy to fill with quality players—McCann, Francoeur, Kelly Johnson, Escobar. They will be just as fine as most other organizations beyond ‘08 barring a major disaster.
By TennesseePaul
December 27, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this
Thanks Payne. Your in-depth observation of the position players really eases the concern over the pitching rotation.
By rich brave
December 27, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this
SHAUN:
You left off DIAZ.
What’s with the Braves re: Diaz anyway? Does he hit righties fine and can’t see a lefty? Does he regularly leave fly-balls lying on the ground like ‘Skates” used to do? Is he not one of the regular guys in the locker-room like “Mad-Dog” was? Everything I’ve see on his stats shows errors down while chances are up. Batting averages climbing against lefties and righties. Whats to not like. Is he in Cox’s dog-house? I know Cox has his favorites. Does he just not fit into the Braves position line-up of the near future?Or maybe he’s “blocking” a future super-star from becoming a regular (Brandon Jones). No power? I can’t see it. Help me-help me understand whaz’up.
By Lew
December 27, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this
nOLIE-Not so sure the same can’t be said of any Journalist who has ever made a prognostication-or any scout, GM, Manager, coach or fan. Comes with the territory, Dude. Like I said-tell me where you think he’s wrong-not just that he hasn’t hit 100% accuracy in the past.
When I saw Glavine getting his butt handed to him as a rookie, there was something about his look of determination that said to me he would succeed. That doesn’t make me an expert and Shanks calling Betemit (who many fans here also had fits when he was traded) a future star doesn’t make him, or those fans complete idiots, either. Evaluating talent is nothing but a crapshoot. The Braves have had much more success than most organizations. THAT is why I tend to be optimistic about the future.
By DAP
December 27, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this
TennPaul i dont really see an issue with our rotation now or in the future. its not the best out there, but its definitely near the top. i thought about what the rotation might look like this year and coming up. heres what i came up with:
2008:
this rotation is pretty much a guarantee, unless hampton doesnt make it, then jurjens will probably go #4. eithre way, we have jurjens, jojo, and bennett ready to step in right away.
2009:
JoJo and Jurjens have another year of seasoning in the minors and james gets another year under his belt. i think this is pretty solid. also, morton and bueno (mentions on skanks’ list) are probably ready this year if they are needed.
2010:
this rotation is the same, since the young guys are all under braves control still. it’s smoltz’s contract year (i think he’ll still have what it takes) and the braves WILL exercise hudson’s option. by this time, morton and bueno are still ready, and cole rohrbough will probably be ready to make the jump as well.
so there you go. weve got depth for years. keep in mind this doesnt even take into account all the options the braves have in the minors right now, AND keep in mind that this is how it might happen if the the braves make ZERO trades or signings for other pitchers.
more than likely, the braves WILL sign or trade for pitchers during these years, but even if they dont, they have the depth at SP to not panic right now, wouldnt you say?
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 27, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this
I enjoyed the article by Bill Shanks , probably because I’m a braves fan. I mean , it’s about my team. Most Braves fans would appreciate a little team spirit this time of year. Apparently though , one Neanderthal didn’t.
By JUST LISTENING
December 27, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this
Flash: Just heard that McFanns’ posts were coming from the J. Edgar Hoover Bldg.
By DAP
December 27, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this
Coach Neanderthal. good one, man. i wonder when he will get a break from servicing his important clients so he can opine on the braves/MIB blog.
By BabyGoatEater
December 27, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this
If our rotation consisted of
Hudson Jurrjens Reyes James Morton
I would still think we’d be in the top half of the NL.
Add in two workhorses like Smoltz and Glavine; then factor in the crazy good lineup….how can you not like the Braves?
I just don’t understand why so many “experts” seem to be overlooking Atlanta.
Then again they overlooked the Braves for 14 consecutive years, and we all know how that turned out.
By McFann
December 27, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this
Um…I’m sorry, but um…J. Edgar Hoover? What now?
By nOLIE
December 27, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this
Apparently though , one Neanderthal didn’t.Coach
I didn’t say it wasn’t enjoyable I said he is one of the most biased writers around so it ain’t particularly reliable just cause he says it. So of course you will always enjoy his articles. Just don’t put a lot of faith in them without bothering to check outside sources. And insulting someone who disagrees with you is childish behavior. You should try to debate in a little more mature manner. It is true that I am about as unemotional a person as you will ever run into, probably to a fault, but it doesn’t make me a neanderthal, in fact they were probably ruled almost entirely by emotions because of the small brain size. If you are determined to insult someone you might at least make an attempt to come up with an apt comparison. I do not let the fact that I am a Braves’ fan enter into any analysis that I make and am certainly not going to get down on a guy(Shanks) cause he has not been near 100% on his predictions, no one ever is. I have experience judging baseball players and am aware when someone is way off base if I have seen the prospect play and over the years he has hyped guys like Helms, Hessman and any number of pitchers who have never amounted to anything, not just been off on a few that were easy to misjudge like Betemit. If you wanna get all warm and fuzzy then by all means read all the Shanks that you can find. That’s his approach all right.Like I said he’s the guy who never met a braves’ prospect that he couldn’t fall in love with. Lew good scouts and executives learn eventually not to fall in love with the talent. If they can’t they end up like that Rays’ GM who could never pull the trigger on a deal.The Braves seem to do a goos job evaluating their own players. The Braves’ minor league parks are designed to make their MiLB pitching prospects look good. Part is to enhance confidence, part is to make them attractive to other teams since the Braves usually deal for talent rather than sign FAs. That said, I do like the fact that some of the younger guys are showing excellent SO/IP ratios due it seems to heat, which hopefully means that their success is not tied that tightly to the pitcher-friendly parks. If you want some confidence in projected Braves’ info I think that you are better off with Dave that with Bill.
By Steve McP
December 27, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this
Glavine has an option for 09 - if he stays healthy and eats 200 innings again with 15 or so wins then he will surely pitch for the next two years
By Gil in Mechanicsville
December 27, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this
Some folks do very well hiding behind the mask. Great fun I would suppose to be someone you are not. Reminds me a bit of the hoopla over the sensational little league pitcher from New York who turned out to be two years older than originally claimed. Was can’t miss against the kids but when forced to play amongst his peers, he turned out to be quite average.
So much for the holiday spirit, the eggnog wore off pretty quick for some.
Infante has raised his average to around .300 in the winter leagues. Good news for all who think he will take Woodward’s spot on the roster.
The Braves have been very successful playing “Bobby Ball” for the past decade. Problem of late is the power failure between the ears of some of the Braves big boppers.
By DAP
December 27, 2007 2:54 PM | Link to this
Steve McP good point on glavine. i had forgotten about that. there is a pretty good chance he’ll go one more year.
By Braveheart
December 27, 2007 2:54 PM | Link to this
Anyone check out the latest from Gammons? He is singing the praises of Maddux and Glavine.
Here is a cool tidbit from the Gammons column:
When Maddux first pitched in the majors in September of 1986, Clemens was already wrapping up his first Cy Young; since that debut, Maddux has actually won 39 more games than Clemens. Since Glavine made his debut the following August, he has one more win than Roger, 303-302.
By Lew
December 27, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this
nOlIE-See, that’s the thing. I listen to all of them and then make my own determination on the provided insight and a bit of my own research. I read Bowman, Rosenthal and lots of others, too. I may tend towards a more positive outlook than many, but I don’t think myself unrealistic.
With the guys I see coming up in the minors, what I like is not only their K-IP ratios, but their K to BB ratios and their WHIP numbers. Those stats, combined with their good ERA’s and the fact that Frank Wren claims they have at least a dozen guys who throw in the mid to high 90’s, shows me that the pitching focus in recent years has changed, somewhat.
When you have three HOF starters in the same rotaion for ten+ years and a pitching coach who transforms veterans for your 4 and 5 starters, you just don’t need a whole lot of pitchers coming up through the ranks. Our Farm System is packed with pitching talent. We just traded about another 5 at the trading deadline and apparently had no problem with other teams wanting them. Like I said-different situations, different approaches. We will be fine.
By rich brave
December 27, 2007 6:38 PM | Link to this
A note on the passing of Jim Beauchamp. You Atlanta fans did not have the pleasure of seeing Jim play ball on a regular basis, but those of us in Richmond had the distinct honor of seeing him often. He energized the team on many occasions with his bat and glove raising the team’s expectations with exceptional play. And always with a fierce desire to succeed. If you ever have the opportunity ask Bobby Cox. He played with Jim in the infield.
To the Beauchamp family my deepest sympathy, and humble regards. He will be cherished always in my memory.
By Tyler
December 27, 2007 6:42 PM | Link to this
Lew-I was also surprised that Tommy Hanson was not mentioned in there. He is in all of our top 10 prospects lists, and from what I hear (and also from you) he has excellent command to go along with a high K rate. He is starting out at AA, right?
Also, I hear mixed feelings on Rohrbough. I hear from some that his stuff is great-especially his spike curve. But from some I hear that once he hits the majors the hitters won’t bite on it as much since it is hard to throw for a strike. Am I wrong?
By Wayne in Utah
December 27, 2007 6:45 PM | Link to this
Lew and Coach
I enjoyed reading Shanks piece on the braves prospects. I think it interesting that Hanson, Evarts, and Locke weren’t even mentioned. Granted, those guys are probably not on the radar for 2008.
What is the story on Jim Beauchamp?
By David O'Brien
December 27, 2007 6:54 PM | Link to this
Rich Brave, thanks for the post about Beauchamp.
As much as you remember him as a player, it was Beauchamp the person who was first-rate, top-shelf, as warm and beloved as any who’s been in the organization in any capacity, according to every person I’ve ever talked to about him. A first-class individual. Warmest condolences to his family….
CARROLL, here’s info on spring training: Individual game tickets for the Braves’ home spring training season go on sale Saturday, Jan. 5, at 10 a.m. through Ticketmaster (407/839-3900 and www.ticketmaster.com) and at the Disney’s Wide World of Sports Complex box office. Prices range from $14.50 (general admission lawn seats) to $23.50 (lower reserved).
By Wayne in Utah
December 27, 2007 6:55 PM | Link to this
OK, read the story on Jim Beauchamp. Somewhere, I have one of his old baseball cards.
By Lew
December 27, 2007 8:14 PM | Link to this
Tyler-On Rohrbough-I really can’t tell you. I’ve never seen him pitch. I’m only going on all the reports and his numbers. Haven’t heard that about him. However, all curves tend to depend on what else you’re throwing. If you can’t locate your fastball, a curve won’t do you a damn bit of good, anyway.
By McFann
December 27, 2007 8:26 PM | Link to this
Ugh!! When is the new blog gonna be ready?
BTW, anybody see the photo gallery on the AJC Braves page? : )
By McFann
December 27, 2007 8:51 PM | Link to this
Why do my smiley faces always get messed up? Why?
By N8
December 27, 2007 9:16 PM | Link to this
Well, without trolling through the blog to see if anybody has commented on this, I’ll do my part.
It seems as though Douchebag Dayn Perry, is back to being a Braves Hater (only a little sarcasm). He has a column ranking the best 1-2 punches, as far as starting pitchers go. Smoltz and Hudson close out the list at #10.
In all fairness, he said that what held them back from being higher, was Smoltz’ age, and Hudson’s inconsistency since leaving Oakland. He went on to say that if Smoltz’ health held up and Hudson repeats last year, they would be among the best in baseball on this list.
Common sense really. When looking at the list, they really could be ranked anywhere from 3 or 4 to where he ranked them. As Bobby would say…..
It’s a crap-shoot. :-)
Douchebag Dayn Perry
By Lew
December 27, 2007 9:46 PM | Link to this
Hudson’s Inconsistency? Does Perry mean the 14-9, 13-12 and 16-10 records he has posted in three years? Except for one year of slightly ERA, I’d say an average season of 14-10 is pretty steady.
By McFann
December 27, 2007 9:55 PM | Link to this
Lew, agreed.
By brian
December 27, 2007 10:37 PM | Link to this
I know there are other blogs for this but just a diversion from the slow baseball season.
I know the BCS system is what it is for college football, but the argument that Georgia should be excluded for the national championship game because they didn’t win the SEC or make it to the title game is ridiculous. Wake Forest won the national title for soccer and was the best team in the nation, but they did not win the ACC title. How many NCAA basketball champions did not win their conference, or even make it to the conference championship game? How many wild card teams have won the World Series? I could go on and on, but college football needs a playoff of some sort and Georgia should be in the title game. Everyone thought they were the 3rd best team in the country prior to #1 and #2 losing.
By doc
December 27, 2007 10:48 PM | Link to this
as a kid growing up atlanta in the fifties and there to with the braves launch in 1966 there were two “home grown” heroes because they had several seasons here that i followed, bob montag and jim beauchamps. for some reason they stuck out i my memory bank through all these years having grown up watching the atlanta crackers in the old ponce de leon ball park. i remember jim as a heck of a hitter. sad to note his passing, class act for a fan of that era. maybe furman will print up an appropriate parting piece about him in the next day or two
By Steve McP
December 27, 2007 11:03 PM | Link to this
Just another quick thought about the pitching in 2009 - maybe Hampton will feel so grateful to the Braves for bearing with him through all the injury issues that he will sign a cheap contract after his 20 win Cy Young season in 2008, plus the 4 wins in the play offs - hey its Christmas we can all dream!
By uga-brave
December 27, 2007 11:20 PM | Link to this
erstad to the astros and olivo to the fish. pretty darn slow baseball week. stiil the most intriguing move is the $1mill roll of the dice the pads made. would be a pretty darn good rotation if prior proves to be servicable.
the N.L. west is shaping up to be the best division in baseball. i know everyone is going scream A.L. central or A.L. east, but the pitching staffs in the west all might be pretty darn special.
who wants to go into arizonia and face webb, haren, and the unit?
By N8
December 27, 2007 11:45 PM | Link to this
Lew & McFan
I’m not one to stick up for DB Dayn Perry, I don’t particularly like the guy (not because I think he dislikes the Braves - I just don’t like his opinions most of the time in general), but I think it’s Hudson’s inconsistency DURING THE SEASON that he’s talking about.
Maddux and Glavine used to be consistently good (if not great), with the occasional bad start every blue moon. Hudson was the same way IN OAKLAND.
But since coming to Atlanta, Hudson has been inconsistent from month to month, week to week and sometimes start to start.
Are we gonna get the guy that matches Johan Santana for 8 innings of dominant ball, or the guy that gives up 4-5 runs early in the game?
Last year went a long way towards being closer to the Hudson we’d LIKE TO SEE. So I expect big things from him (after NOT expecting them last off-season).
So I don’t think DB Dayn Perry is THAT far off…..for now. :-)
By uga-brave
December 28, 2007 12:10 AM | Link to this
n8,
i agree with your take on hudson. he was great and occasionally not so good. his first six or so starts he was bullet proof. then pretty average. then good again. i also agree he will have a big season.
he is a lot like glavine used to be. you can tell early. if huddy is getting ground balls and swings and misses early, he is usually a pretty solid bet.
i know he is one guy that is not going to miss wickman.
By ColoradoBravesFan
December 28, 2007 12:29 AM | Link to this
TENNPaul… Which reliever are reffering to that melted down in the minor league post season? Medlen?
By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)
December 28, 2007 1:43 AM | Link to this
Kris Medlen , now there is a name that might be heard from sometime in 2008. This kid has just blown away minor league hitters during the two seasons he has been in the Braves system.
His fastball is average , running in around 91-93. It’s his curveball that dominates because Medlen has demonstrated the ability to throw it for strikes consistently. He also showcases a change up on occasion , keeping hitters honest.
Look for this 5-10 right hander to be in an Atlanta Braves uniform no later than 2009.
By BabyGoatEater
December 28, 2007 2:36 AM | Link to this
Kind of related to the Dayn “the a$$” Perry article today……………
We all know that having two great pitchers and 3 less than average pitchers means virtually nothing when it comes to winning division titles. I wanted to see who has the best top 4 pitchers in the NL. So went stat searching. Here’s what I found out.
Only the Diamondbacks(if you include Haren, which you should) and our Braves had 4 pitchers in the top 25 in ERA. **Cubs and Padres had 4 in top 30
Only the Padres(4),Cubs,and our Braves had at least 3 pitchers in the top 25 in OBA (Oponents Batting Average) **by the way the Padres,Braves and Cubs had 4 in the top 27
PADRES:
Jake Peavy .254(1st) .272(1st)
Chris Young 3.12(5th) .281(2cd)
Greg Maddux 4.14(21st) .309(10th)
Justin Germano 4.46(26th) .322(18th)
DIAMONDBACKS:
Brandon Webb 3.01(7th) .296(7th)
Dan Haren 3.07(4th) .292(5th)
Doug Davis 4.24(24th) .365(39th)
Micah Owings 4.45(25th) .326(20th)
CUBS:
Ted Lilly 3.83(14th) .286(4th)
Rich Hill 3.92(18th) .305(8th)
Calos Zambrano 3.95(19th) .329(22nd)
Jason Marquis 4.60(29th) .335(26th)
BRAVES:
John Smoltz 3.11(4th) and .293(6th)
Tim Hudson 3.33(7th) and .309(10th)
Chuck James 4.24(24th)and .327(21st)
Tom Glavine 4.45(25th) and .338(27th)
If you ask me only the Padres and Cubs have a better rotation than the Braves. Although you have to include the Diamondbacks in the discussion because of the quality of their first 3.
By Coach(Lets Go Braves In 2008)
December 28, 2007 4:23 AM | Link to this
Well , BabyGoatEater. Your ranking the Braves fourth and the poll on Dayne Perry’s article had Smoltz and Hudson ranked fifth while the arse himself (Dayne Perry) had them ranked tenth. That just reveals how ignorant he is.
By Coach(Lets Go Braves In 2008)
December 28, 2007 6:31 AM | Link to this
Does this apply to the Braves starting pitching in 2008 ?
http://redsox.scout.com/2/699399.html
By Nolie
December 28, 2007 6:47 AM | Link to this
nOlIE-See, that’s the thing. I listen to all of them and then make my own determination on the provided insight and a bit of my own research. I read Bowman, Rosenthal and lots of others, too. I may tend towards a more positive outlook than many, but I don’t think myself unrealistic.Lew
That’s the approach that I try to use now that I no longer get to see the kids play on a regular basis in the minors. Again, my main point was not that the Braves’ don’t have a bevy of interesting and promising prospects(though as I have posted b4 I place little reliance on pitching at the A and AA level cause such a vast majority of them do not become impact MLB players)but that over the years Shanks has been too much of a Pollyanna to take seriously as a source. I think that no matter which organization it is, you are better served by attending to out-of-system evaluations. The Braves do a very good job of evaluating their own talent IMO, but of course even if they decide a prospect isn’t gonna cut it, they aren’t about to admit that, nor should they.
By David O'Brien
December 28, 2007 7:58 AM | Link to this
Getting on a plane to go to Phoenix this morning, but coming back home tonight. Gonna plan to write a new blog on the flight out there and file when I get to Phoenix….
BabyGoatEater, Glavine’s ERA jumped a half a run in his last two starts (and his opp avg also soared in those two). Don’t you think “quality starts” would be a better measure of a pitcher’s performance over a course of a season than ERA, since ERA doesn’t penalize or credit a pitcher for pitching 140 innings or 230 innings?
I mean, if you don’t care that one pitcher pitched 160 innings and the other pitched 200 innings, and their ERAs were almost identical, well, that doesn’t make much sense.
I’d put the D-Backs and Padres’ rotations ahead of the Braves, but certainly not the Cubs
By Shaun
December 28, 2007 8:49 AM | Link to this
Thanks Payne. Your in-depth observation of the position players really eases the concern over the pitching rotation.
Yes, because no other team in baseball has any concern over their pitching rotation, especially long-term.
SHAUN: You left off DIAZ.
Diaz is a fine player but he’ll be 30 in March. I was thinking of guys 25-26 and under that still have most or all of their primes still ahead of them.
By Shaun
December 28, 2007 9:04 AM | Link to this
BabyGoatEater, I agree with DOB. It’s kind of simplistic to measure rotation effectiveness simply by ERA or OBA. What about innings? And an ability to keep unearned runs from scoring?
By Shaun
December 28, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this
Coach(Lets Go Braves In 2008), Dayn Perry was ranking all the rotations in baseball, not just NL. He was also using more than just ERA and OBA as his guide.
It’s so funny how people on here waste so much energy hating Dayn Perry. I’m sure he’s flattered if he cares about such things as Braves blogs. I’m not sure I agree with him but I think his list is fairly reasonable and certainly no reason to get worked up over.
He ranked Smoltz and Hudson ahead of Beckett and Matsuzaka, ahead of any Yankee tandem, ahead of any Tigers tandem or Blue Jays tandem (even though many on here will tell you Perry is either a Red Sox or Yankees apologist).
By Braveheart
December 28, 2007 9:57 AM | Link to this
Don’t people overrate Dan Haren a bit much? He’s not exactly been a world beater to this point in his career. Yeah, he had a pretty good season last year (not great), he eats innings, doesn’t walk people, and strikes out a pretty respectable number of batters but……..
Dan Haren, Win %: .527; Chuck James, Win %: .611
Dan Haren, ERA: 3.82; Chuck James, ERA: 4.00
Haren, ERA+: 113; James, ERA+: 109
Haren, K/9: 6.98; James, k/9: 6.67
Haren, AVG against: .258; James AVG against: .250
Haren, OBP against: .306; James, OBP against: .321
Haren, SLG against: .417; James, SLG against .457
Haren clearly has better stuff, is a better pitcher, eats more innings and all that but Haren is no ace. If anything, Haren is what Kevin Millwood was 5 to 10 years ago. Nothing more, nothing less. Still wish he was a Brave but not at the price of talent that had to be traded to get him.
By rich brave
December 28, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this
SHAUN:
No love because he’s an OLD MAN!! Whew!! If he weren’t an OLD MAN could he get some love from you based upon his performance in “07?
By DAP
December 28, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this
Give perry some credit. pedro and maine didnt even make his top 10.
i dont agree with all of his points…i would probably rank huddy and smoltz and few rung higher, but he did a decent assessment.
By Shaun
December 28, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this
Braveheart, Haren has played his career in the AL so he’s facing a DH most games and the AL has been a slightly tougher league.
Also, I think you hit the nail on the head with the walk rate, plus there’s the difference in homerun rate.
And, finally, I think Chuck James is a little underrated as opposed to Haren being overrated.
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 28, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this
Shaun , the list is a joke whether it includes one or both leagues. Ranking Santana and Liriano third is just sheer lunacy. It’s not 2006 , it’s 2007.
Francisco Liriano didn’t even pitch this past season , he has been recovering from T.J. surgery November 6th , 2006. Santana is likely to be traded soon leaving this fantasy ranking a thing of Dayn Perry’s vivid imagination.
By Shaun
December 28, 2007 10:26 AM | Link to this
rich brave, who are you referring to getting “no love” because he’s an old man? Smoltz? Where did Smoltz get “no love”? Perry basically said he’s one of the top 10-20 pitchers in baseball.
Not sure what you mean by “could he get some love from you based upon his performance in ‘07?” Who said I wasn’t giving him “love”? I didn’t mention anything about giving love to Smoltz anywhere in my post.
By Random
December 28, 2007 10:45 AM | Link to this
Roman Gal:
I for one sure zell would mind. Robert ain’t no dummy. If we can (or could) put up with, for example, joebrave’s and SJA’s verbal diarrheic abuse, stinky’s nastiness, chrisklob’s monotonic literal thinking or Bob, Journalist’s and jjs’s self-impressed, tortuous malapropisms, to name but a few idiosyncratic bloggers, we can certainly put up with, get past and, should we choose, try to rebut Robert’s obsession and benefit from his occasional insights.
MX/HNY to all, especially those just mentioned.
By Shaun
December 28, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this
Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008), I certainly understand your disagreement and I come down on your side more than Dayn Perry’s. But I think his reasoning is fairly valid:
“His injury history is certainly a source of concern; however, these days Tommy John surgery is a fairly routine procedure, and some pitchers come back better than ever. As such, Liriano should resume his excellence once he works the kinks out.”
He’s concerned about 2008, not 2006 or 2007. And Liriano has a pretty good shot to come back pretty strong in 2008. I think that’s his thinking and while you and I may disagree with Dayn Perry, I think his is fairly valid reasoning.
By DAP
December 28, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this
Coach agreed about liriano. he was great in ‘06 before getting hurt, but i dont think you can rank him and santana, who may be about to be traded 3rd if youre being fair.
if youre gonna do that, anybody in the world would rank the braves 5 starters as the best group in the majors, because you would assume hampton would pitch like he did in ‘03.
thats why i said i would rank huddy and smoltz a little higher, because on my list santana and liriano wouldnt even be on there, and i would also have cain and lincecum below our guys.
rich brave as far as smoltz getting love…im married, so dont expect it to come from me.
By itsouttahere
December 28, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this
Braveheart, I am with you regarding Haren…He did a good job beating the league’s worst teams, but I think he only had maybe five wins against teams with winning records!! I’m just not that impressed. I hope James just keeps getting better…look at Glavine’s first couple of years and his stats certainly didn’t give us a hint of his future tremendous value!!
“By Steve McP Just another quick thought about the pitching in 2009 - maybe Hampton will feel so grateful to the Braves for bearing with him through all the injury issues that he will sign a cheap contract after his 20 win Cy Young season in 2008, plus the 4 wins in the play offs - hey its Christmas we can all dream!”
I LOVED THE ABOVE POST BY STEVE > AND THINK IT WOULD BE THE GREATEST THING IN THE WORLD FOR MR. HAMPTON TO HAVE A CAREER YEAR, AND PLAY AT A LARGE DISCOUNT IN 2009!!!
GO Mike H., Tom G., and John S. !!!
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 28, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this
Gee , Random. do you work for the AJC to ? You got that BIG BLUE font going on.
By Shaun
December 28, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this
if youre gonna do that, anybody in the world would rank the braves 5 starters as the best group in the majors, because you would assume hampton would pitch like he did in ‘03.
Hampton is older and has had more injury problems on more parts. Loriano is still young and just had an injury to his elbow, and had surgery to repair it. Loriano is much more likely to come back close to as strong as before in ‘08 than Hampton; obviously not a fair comparison.
Not saying I agree with Perry, but I also don’t think his opinion on this is insane.
By DAP
December 28, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this
shaun mike hampton pitched for for 7 straight year uninjured, has a career W/L of 138/101, a career ERA below 4.00, has pitched over 150 innings 10 times in his career, and struck out over 1200 batters. he is 35, which is not that old in pitcher years and is coming off of elbow surgery.
fransisco (thats fun to say) liriano had one year where he pitched really well until july, and then got hurt. he’s got a career W/L of 13-5, with an extremely low ERA, but he hasnt even pitched 150 innings in his entire career. about 40% of his appearances in the majors werent even starts. and, he’s coming off of elbow surgery.
i dont think its fair to say about one guy, “oh you cant count on him to come back. we’d be lucky if he made 15 starts” and to say about the other guy, “he’s going to form the 3rd best one-two punch on the majors with a guy who will probably be traded.”
to me, that doesnt make any sense.
By Wayne in Utah
December 28, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this
Is that McFann’s picture on the AJC sports page waiting to get a McCann autograph? The one in the blue cap and white shirt???
:-) (couldn’t resist!)
By McFann
December 28, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this
Note to N8:
My name has two lower case N’s.
By Random
December 28, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this
Braveheart: How the f#@$@ is a manager supposed to win when his crappy starting pitchers go out there and pitch only 4.84 innings per start and have a 6.67 ERA during those 70 starts?
Well, he could do something to allow the team to score some more runs, like forego having a .222 BA/.413 SLG hitter batting clean-up for two-thirds of the season.
By McFann
December 28, 2007 11:45 AM | Link to this
To Wayne:
No.
By Random
December 28, 2007 11:57 AM | Link to this
Coach: Gee , Random. do you work for the AJC to ? You got that BIG BLUE font going on.
Nah, I just finally figured out how to link to the specific previous post that I’m commenting on. I’m hoping that it will help to distinguish a particular thread, especially when the blog gets so big. (Thanks for noticing.)
By N8
December 28, 2007 11:57 AM | Link to this
shaun
I certainly wasn’t complaining about DB Dayn Perry (I just like it, ANYTIME I can use the word douchebag).
I just wanted to stoke the fire, if you will, of all the people that get all worked up about him. It’s fun watching people bicker back and forth. That includes watching you and others, as well. :-)
I stated the same as you that he wasn’t too far off. Along with the fact that he left himself with an “out” for placing Smoltz/Hudson at #10, by saying IF Smoltz is healthy AND Hudson repeats last year’s numbers, they will be much higher.
Coach
I see where you are coming from about Liriano/Santana.
But here’s the thing. Santana is so FRICKING good, that by merely including him with ANYBODY to form a duo, puts them near the top. His numbers and consistency are so off the charts, that you coul “pair him up” with Chuck James and that would make one hell of a 1-2 punch.
But I agree, Liriano needs to show he’s healthy, and Santana needs a home, before we can pair him up with another pitcher for the purpose of the DB’s list.
By Shaun
December 28, 2007 12:01 PM | Link to this
DAP, I wouldn’t have ranked Santanta/Soriano that high precisely because of Soriano’s injury history, so I agree with you there.
As far as Hampton, I think his age and “experience” are strikes against him making a strong comeback rather than something that makes it more likely he’ll come back strong in ‘08.
I never said “oh you cant count on him to come back. we’d be lucky if he made 15 starts.” I just think him returning to the Mike Hampton of old (a solid #3 starter on a contender) in ‘08 is less likely than Liriano becoming a solid pitcher in ‘08.
By Shaun
December 28, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this
I stated the same as you that he wasn’t too far off. Along with the fact that he left himself with an “out” for placing Smoltz/Hudson at #10, by saying IF Smoltz is healthy AND Hudson repeats last year’s numbers, they will be much higher.
Well, what’s the purpose of his list anyone? Just a fun thing to spark discussion, and it’s based on what he feels is most likely not what happened in ‘07 or what could happen in ‘08.
But here’s the thing. Santana is so FRICKING good, that by merely including him with ANYBODY to form a duo, puts them near the top. His numbers and consistency are so off the charts, that you could “pair him up” with Chuck James and that would make one hell of a 1-2 punch.
Good point. Santana and any decent pitcher would be way up there just because Santana is the best pitcher in baseball.
And I think people are selling Chuck James short, as is common on the blog for some reason. James probably isn’t going to rake in the Cy Young’s but he’s likely to be a solid third starter most years and maybe even a decent number two in his best seasons.
By DAP
December 28, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this
Shaun understood. i will wait till liriano has pitched a full season, or at least until he’s shown the injury is completely behind him before singing his praises.
if i made the list, i would give perry the benefit of the doubt on some of these, cause i just dont know that much about all the teams, but i would remove liriano and santana completely and move cain and lincedum down to 10th. my list would look like this.
By DAP
December 28, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this
But here’s the thing. Santana is so FRICKING good, that by merely including him with ANYBODY to form a duo, puts them near the top. His numbers and consistency are so off the charts, that you could “pair him up” with Chuck James and that would make one hell of a 1-2 punch.
no, i dont think so. thats not what a 1-2 punch is. youve got to have a good 1 AND a good 2 to make the list.
unless a pitcher is so good he strikes out guys the day AFTER he pitches, then that doesnt fly.
By N8
December 28, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this
DAP
“unless a pitcher is so good he strikes out guys the day AFTER he pitches, then that doesnt fly.”
While funny (and it DID make me laugh out loud), that’s not all together true, based on how DB Dayn Perry, listed the stats.
He COMBINED THEM, he didn’t list each picher seperately.
For instance, if you have two guys that hit 40 HR each, in the middle of your line up with 105 RBI each. The combined number of HR and RBI would be 80 and 210.
Now if you have a guy with 55 HR and 145 RBI, and another guy with 25 HR and 75 RBI, and were to list them in the way DP did, they would appear to be equal.
I understand what you are saying, and actually agree with you (because common sense tells me, that each of the pitchers in the 1-2 punch list “held there own” as upper level starters).
I would’ve preferred that he listed each of their numbers seperately, and THEN showed the combined numbers.
Combined there was only 2 “duos” that had a RPG less than that of Smoltz and Hudson (3.45). Yet as Braves fans, we know that Smoltz had and ERA of 3.11 and Hudson’s was 3.33.
Which tells me that they BOTH were pretty good, as opposed to Peavy and Young. Peavy DEFINITELY carried the “better combined” numbers of the two. So why are they ranked ahead of Smoltz and Hudson? Peavy had an ERA of 2.54 and Young’s was 3.12.
So clearly their ERA’s are better than that of Smoltz and Hudson’s, but based on Peavy being THAT MUCH BETTER. So one could clearly make the argument that Santana and ANYBODY could “combine” to make a pretty good 1-2 punch.
Anyway, I get it, so don’t come flying back at me like I’m ignorant. I just think the way DP laid out the “numbers” leaves room for argument. Which as Shaun said, is the WHOLE PURPOSE of an article like he wrote. For us sports nutz to dissect for endless amount of time. LOL!
No different than Sports talk Radio around the country.
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 28, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this
I agree that Francisco Lariano has more upside (potential) right now than almost any young pitcher in baseball , he just has to get healthy and prove it.
DAP , thats an accurate list of the top two starters even though I would rank Smoltz/Hudson higher. but isn’t it funny that no one is listing the pitchers from the team that just won the World Series ?
Ive been wondering about the aspect of applying a six man rotation to the Braves in 2008. I haven’t made up my mind about it just yet. It has lots of pro’s and con’s to consider.
The age of Smoltz(41) and Glavine(42) , the ability of Mike Hampton to pitch more than twenty starts or at all , Chuck James recovery from a partially torn rotator cuff and the inexperience of Jo-Jo Reyes , Jair Jurrjens , Jeff Bennett. Hudson isn’t an issue.
Still , the Braves have a great deal of depth and talent to choose from. they have ten (starters) pitchers with major league experience. Maybe start the season with a true five man rotation and gradually work in a sixth spot starter who can eat 15-20 starts.
I’m on the fence when considering six starters or five. Does it water the pitching down or give the rotation more depth to withstand the rigors of the 162 game marathon ?
By DAP
December 28, 2007 1:03 PM | Link to this
N8 WHY YOU LITTLE< I OUGHTA…..oh. :-)
no, thats fine. i appreciate perry article alot, because its giving us something to talk about.
By Braveheart
December 28, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this
Shaun I think until recently Haren was underrated. Now, because he was the only really good pitcher on the market, he has all of a sudden become overrated by so many. It’s like so many have gone from saying that trading for Haren would be good because you would get 80% of Santana in Haren for about 25% of the projected salary of Santana to acting like the DBacks somehow purchased a true difference maker like Santana, Pedro, Clemens, Randy, or Maddux in their primes.
And you will get no argument from me about Chuck James being underappreciated by far too many Braves fans. He is far from perfect and needs to become more efficient early in games in order to be more effective later in games. However, despite the flaws, overall, Chuck James is a pretty good pitcher.
By Braveheart
December 28, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this
Well, he could do something to allow the team to score some more runs, like forego having a .222 BA/.413 SLG hitter batting clean-up for two-thirds of the season.
Random I know everyone says this and believes this but who was supposed to hit cleanup if Andruw wasn’t? It’s not like Frenchy and McCann were tearing the cover off the ball or that anyone else could have been a better option at cleanup.
At the end of April, Andruw had a .936 OPS. Is Cox gonna replace him then?
At the end of May, Andruw had a .777 OPS. Frenchy had a .806 OPS. McCann had a .766 OPS. Gonna replace him with guys putting up similar numbers after one bad month?
On June 23, Andruw had a .680 OPS. Well, okay, maybe you replace him then after 2 horrific months at the plate. Problem was McCann had a .698 OPS on that date. McCann’s OPS for June was .686. Frenchy had a .743 OPS on that date that dipped down to .729 just a few days later. Frenchy’s OPS in May was .716 and his OPS in June was a miserable .665. Why would Cox replace Andruw with two guys performing almost as bad as Andruw?
In July, Andruw had a .935 OPS. In July, McCann had a .894 OPS. In July, Frenchy had a .890 OPS. Andruw was outperforming them in this month, so why would Cox replace Druw with them during that month?
Andruw had a .773 OPS as a cleanup hitter last year. McCann had a .772 OPS for the entire season. Frenchy had a .782 OPS last season.
So, Cox was not stupid for sticking with Andruw as the cleanup hitter as long as he did. Until Tex arrived, his hands were tied by the nonexistent alternatives to bat cleanup.
By uga-brave
December 28, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this
obviously this is a swing year for james. the potential is there but i wonder if the concentration is. 58 BB, 32 hrs. in 161 ip. i think what bothers cox the most about james is his inability to consistently get ahead of hitters. the guy throws a ton of pitches an inning, and when he is behind in the count he really has no out pitch.
it will be real interesting to see what kind of pitcher shows up this spring. if pitchig in the same rotation with two HOF’s does not inspire him or make him study charts then his career timeline will look very similar to that of homerunio ramirez.
By Lew
December 28, 2007 1:57 PM | Link to this
Well-Many of y’all make good points on the “Dynamic Duos”. However, the telling point for the Braves is that NO ONE else from their division comes close. Until we become Division Champs again, it is all a moot point, anyway.
BTW-Did San Diego ever get an offense?
By Shaun
December 28, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, well 80 percent of Santana is still one of the best pitchers in the game at a low price and at a young age; so I’d say that’s pretty good for the Diamondbacks in ‘08.
I don’t think anyone thinks of Haren as a Pedro, Maddux or Clemens; even the most optimistic D-Back fans. But Haren should be one of the 5-10 best pitchers in the game, certainly in the NL, in ‘08.
By ObiWanKobe
December 28, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this
Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About The Braves Payroll, but Were Afraid to Ask
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/atlanta-braves_15.html
A sample: Mike Hampton lhp 8 years/$121M (01-08), plus $20M 09 club option
* $20M signing bonus o $1M to charity, $19M deferred to 2009-18 at 3% interest * 01:$8M, 02:$8.5M, 03:$11M, 04:$12M, 05:$12.5M, 06:$13.5M, 07:$14.5M, 08:$15M, 09:$20M club option $6M buyout * Colorado to pay $49M ($20M signing bonus, $8M in 2001, $8.5M in 2002, $2M in 2003, $2M in 2004, $2.5M in 2005, $6M buyout in 2009). * Florida to pay $23.5M ($7M of 2003 salary, $8M in 2004, $8.5M in 2005). * Atlanta to pay $48.5M ($2M of 2003 salary, $2M in 2004, $1.5M in 2005, $13.5M in 2006, $14.5M in 2007, $15M in 2008). * award bonuses: $0.15M (WS MVP), $0.1M (CY, LCS MVP), $50,000 (2-5 CY vote), $25,000 (All Star, Gold Glove Silver Slugger) * 3 years/$12M (1998-2000) * agent: Mark Rodgers * ML service: 13.073By uga-brave
December 28, 2007 2:05 PM | Link to this
braveheart,
absolutely agree with your 1:40 post. to a man, who thought andruw was going to stuggle the whole season?
usually cox’s patience is rewarded. one of the few times it did not work out.
By DAP
December 28, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this
braveheart frenchy actually would have been a great option to bat cleanup last year instead of andruw. OPS looks pretty similar, but how about these stats.
frenchy’s batting average with RISP was .341 in 2007. andruw’s was .231.
i can see cox giving andruw a little time to break out of a funk, but logically, he should have been replaced in the cleanup spot in the beginning of june when frenchy was batting 50 points higher than andruw.
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 28, 2007 2:15 PM | Link to this
I hope this comes out right. These are per start averages.
2006/2007 : IP 5.95/5.37 BB 2.33/1.93 K’s 4.72/3.86 hits 5.27/5.46 earned runs 2.61/2.53 HR 1.0/1.06 ERA 3.93/4.24
Basically , his innings pitched were down , walks were down , strike outs were down , hits were up , runs were down a bit , HR’s were about the same and ERA was up.
But , the most telling stat was his 12 quality start out of 18 in 2006 VS. his 11 in 30 starts during 2007.
Chuck James went from being untradeable in 2006 because of his high value to being untradeable in 2007 because of his arm injury and inability to get past the sixth inning.
James received 4.90(five) runs a game from the offense and yet ended up just one games over .500 with 11 wins and 10 losses , the same number of wins he had in 2006 while making 12 fewer starts.
Which is why he so desperately needs an off speed pitch that can be thrown for strikes. James had problems with his location all season , leading to high pitch counts , short outings on the mound , an over worked bullpen and of course , his penchant for giving up the gopher ball which will kill his career unless he develops a decent curveball.
By McFann
December 28, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, (you knew you’d hear from me, didn’t you?) you raise a fairly good point. However, DAP makes a better one. Who cares so much about a player’s OPS as much as their average with RISP? Now, I’m not exactly what you would call a Francoeur fan, but he might have made a better clean-up hitter than AJ. (Almost anybody would)
And let’s not forget that McCann hit .324 with five doubles, seven RBIs, and only one strike out in the clean-up spot. ; )
By uga-brave
December 28, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this
good perspective coach.
By ncscoots
December 28, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this
Who cares so much about a player’s OPS as much as their average with RISP?
Uh, maybe you should just stick to throwing blog-smooches to McCann.
By bigblackfurrycreaturefrommars
December 28, 2007 3:03 PM | Link to this
By the way,
I know we have pondered over the PERRY ARTICLE FOR SOME TIME, BUT I MUST SAY, whoops- anyway, apparently I’m the only one who thinks that Myers and Hamels is overrated. Hamels - that guy is awesome. But just as Liriano didnt pitch frickin last YEAR, Myers was in the pen! So I must respectfully disagree with DAP and DP (dayn perry). Obviously, there are a few others that could be debated, and I wonder if Beckett/Dice-K is better than Huddy/Smoltz too. And many others for that matter.
But it looks like it might be a moot point anyway, because that conversation was sooo 3 hours ago…
By Andy
December 28, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this
Anyone see that former Yankee C Jim Leyritz has been charged on two accounts of DUI, one of them being vehicular manslaughter under teh influence…he’s being held in a Florida jail, and if convicted, faces up to like 15 years in jail. Crazy… He seemed like the kind of guy sensible enough to designate a driver…or at least his friends should’ve…he was at his birthday celebration apparently.
By McFann
December 28, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this
Hey, you got a problem with what I wrote? Suppose a player’s SLG % was way up but most of his homers were solos? 12 of Andruw Jones’ homers were with the bases empty. Sure that’s not all his fault, but he came up to bat plenty of times with men on base and he didn’t do anything useful. OBP is good, of course, and so is SLG, but you have to be able to do that kind of stuff with men on base, too. Otherwise, you aren’t as much help.
“Blog-smooches”!! Don’t be disgusting!!
By DAP
December 28, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this
Who cares so much about a player’s OPS as much as their average with RISP?
I wouldnt have said it like that, but the point i was making is in there. even if OPS was similar, andruw was clearly hurting the team because he had more AB with RISP than anyone and had a very bad average in those situations! francouer would have been more productive with the same OPS because he hit better when he had RBI chances.
andruw batting cleanup was the #2 worst thing about the braves team last year (back of the rotation being the first) and though i love bobby cox, he is directly responsible for it.
By Shaun
December 28, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this
Who cares so much about a player’s OPS as much as their average with RISP?
Umm…if a player hits a solo homerun, he’s helping his team at least as much, probably more than if he gets a hit with RISP. If a player hits a double or a triple, shouldn’t get get a lot of credit for putting himself in scoring position; maybe as much or more than the guy who gets a hit with him in scoring position? Even if a player gets a single or draws a walk to leadoff an inning (something that doesn’t show up in AVG w/RISP), shouldn’t he get some credit for doing something good?
By McFann
December 28, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this
Yeah, DAP, that wasn’t exactly what I wanted to type. I should’ve found a better way to word it. But yeah, as much as I am annoyed by Francoeur, looking back, I wish he could’ve been our clean-up hitter. Having AJ bat clean-up doomed us from the start. Yep. That was Bobby’s decision. One of the few things I disagreed with him on.
BTW, thanks for using capitals in the snippet from my post. ; )
By Braveheart
December 28, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this
andruw batting cleanup was the #2 worst thing about the braves team last year (back of the rotation being the first) and though i love bobby cox, he is directly responsible for it.
Cox had no other alternatives at cleanup until Tex arrived. Back of the rotation was not something Cox could really control. That is the GM, pitching coach, scouting department, pitcher development department in the minors, and poor drafting of pitchers. What you can kill Cox for is his stubborn refusal to get Willie Harris the hell off the field and especially the leadoff spot when the dude was clearly struggling and killing the team. There were better alternatives to Harris in left with Diaz and at leadoff with Yunel and KJ.
By DAP
December 28, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this
the point is, francouer would have been better in the cleanup spot in 2007 than andruw.
i dont think anybody would argue with THAT.
By McFann
December 28, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, we’ve been sayin’ that Francoeur could’ve been clean-up. Even I’ll admit that. Why do you refuse to except that? I thought you liked Francoeur…
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
December 28, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this
Some rather ASTONISHING but mundane facts concerning the past nine months of Braves baseball.
The Braves have burned through twenty-two ex-players. Thats 22 who have come and gone in nine months. Thats 9 position players and 13 pitchers.
They used 22 different position players in 2007.
The Braves used a total of 28 pitchers , 10 different starters and 18 relief pitchers.
19 new players have been added to the 40 man , which is basically half.
Spring training is still seven weeks away and these numbers will probably continue to grow.
I cannot remember seeing so much turnover in such a short period of time during the last few seasons.
By uga-brave
December 28, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this
.OPS is the best way to determine a players offensive value. a great way to use it is divide it by three. say a player has a .750 .ops is real worth is .250
By DAP
December 28, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this
Braveheart Cox had no other alternatives at cleanup until Tex arrived.
actually cox had 7 other batters that probably would have been better for the team in the cleanup spot. but, specifically, francouer would have been better than andruw. i personally think that should be regarded as fact, and although im enjoying very much talking baseball, im surprised this has come up.
What you can kill Cox for is his stubborn refusal to get Willie Harris the hell off the field and especially the leadoff spot when the dude was clearly struggling and killing the team.
you could make a similar statement about andruw. especially the clearly struggling and killing the team part. we had a alot of great hitters on the team and there is absolutly no excuse for keeping andruw in the cleanup spot for so long.
By McFann
December 28, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this
Gee wiz. I never knew something I typed would cause so much controversy. (Wow. Spelled it correctly on my first try!)
Yes. A solo homer does help the team. But I wouldn’t say it’s more helpful than a hit with RISP. If there’s a player on third and the batter singles, the team gets the same amount of runs as a solo homer gets ‘em. Same goes for doubling with a man on third or second, (or first if it’s a fast runner and there’s two outs.)
I’m sorry for the dumb way of making my point, and what ever happened to that new blog?
By ncscoots
December 28, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, you might as well can that argument, re AJ. You know as well as I that there’s no one more dogmatic than a baseball fan with an opinion. :-) The trifling use of facts is a poor weapon in that battle, LOL.
By uga-brave
December 28, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this
dap,
if you use that logic davies, redman, and reyes never should of started a game. pretty easy looking back and saying this is what should of been done. its not like he didnt hit 85 hrs the previous two years.
By McFann
December 28, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this
Um, uga, I think you left something out of your 3:51 post.
By Braveheart
December 28, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this
Do you guys really think Frenchy would have had the same numbers with RISP if he was batting cleanup? Heavy weighs the crown and crappy are the pitch locations when you are the cleanup guy with RISP.
Part of Andruw’s problem when batting cleanup was that pitchers were scared of Andruw and did not give him quality pitches to hit. Andruw walked 39 times in 173 at bats with RISP. Andruw walked 31 times in 399 at bats in his other at bats. Just look at the increase in walks. This tells you he was getting crap to hit.
Andruw struck out every 3.7 at bats with RISP. Andruw struck out every 4.3 at bats in other situations. This again tells you he was getting crap to hit compared to what he usually got. It also tells you that he was finding himself in deeper counts because so many pitchers were trying to avoid giving him anything good to hit.
Andruw saw 4.04 pitches per plate appearance with RISP. Andruw saw 3.91 pitches per plate appearance in his other plate appearances. This subtle difference also tells you that pitchers were trying not to pitch to him. Frenchy’s pitches per plate appearance however actually drops with RISP. It goes from 3.44 to 3.31. Pitchers are just not as afraid of Frenchy as they are Andruw. Frenchy gets better pitches to hit with RISP.
Obviously, watching all those games, Andruw should have had more plate patience and should not have been so mechanically unsound in his swing. However, I don’t know how much more patient he was supposed to be. 39 walks in 173 at bats is ridiculously patient. Dude was just not getting anything to hit. Why? Because pitchers are far more afraid of Andruw than Frenchy or McCann. And, like it or not, the Braves expect Andruw and Chipper to try to force the action instead of trusting Frenchy and McCann to get it done.
What would Frenchy’s numbers with RISP be if he was handed the cleanup spot and saw alot of the same junk Andruw was forced to see while batting cleanup? Would Frenchy have the same AVG and SLG numbers that he currently has with RISP? Heavy weighs the crown. Frenchy would probably not be as patient as Andruw in drawing 39 walks in 173 at bats with RISP. Andruw’s biggest fault is that he should have been even more patient and walked 60, 70 times with RISP and had a Barry Bondsian type OBP with RISP. But despite being somewhat ridiculously patient with RISP, Andruw was also at the same time a little too trigger happy. With those ridicously unsound mechanics he developed and his pull happy mindset, being somewhat trigger happy set him up for failure when he was not walking with RISP.
But, with that said,
Andruw had a .360 OBP, .439 SLG, .799 OPS with RISP.
Frenchy had a .338 OBP, .444 SLG, .782 OPS overall.
It’s kind of funny to call one a bum for what he did with RISP but use similar numbers to applaud another hitter for what he did overall.
By David O'Brien
December 28, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this
at long last, A NEW BLOG is posted. Let the pigeons loose, and all that.
By DAP
December 28, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this
uga-brave if you use that logic davies, redman, and reyes never should of started a game.
no, if you use my logic, after davies, redman, and reyes continued to fail miserably, the braves would have given some other pitchers a chance to help the team in the fifth spot, which is exactly what happened. the only problem was the other pitchers werent much better in most cases.
this wasnt the case in the lineup. we had a whole team full of better hitter than andruw last season.
pretty easy looking back and saying this is what should of been done.
youre right. its been as easy for me to say it today as it was for me to say it all through may, june and july. and then when tex got here, i kept saying it because andruw was still batting higher in the order than he should have.
By Braveheart
December 28, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this
Scoots As always, good point. I’m outta here.
By DAP
December 28, 2007 4:36 PM | Link to this
Braveheart just a few things:
frenchy hit over 100 points higher with RISP than andruw. that is a wide enough margin for me to think that he still would have hit better than andruw with RISP in the cleanup spot.
your point that pitchers arent as afraid of frenchy, so they pitch to him? good. because he can hit it.
and lastly, its never fair to compare one set of stats for one player and a completely different set of stats for another. if you want to show frenchy’s overall OBP/SLG% then show andruws overall OBP/SLG%. andruw’s will be worse. if you want use use OBP/SLG% with RISP than do that. andruw’s will still be worse.