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AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2007 > December > 14 > Entry

What a tangled web of deceit

By David O'Brien | Friday, December 14, 2007, 03:13 PM

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Ahhhhhhhhh!

My reaction after taking a steroid injection in the buttocks?

No, my thoughts after perusing most of the 400-plus-page, mind-numbing tome that was the Mitchell Report, then reading a few dozen reaction stories and opinion pieces cranked out feverishly in the 24 hours since its release.

So many thoughts, so many obstacles yet to overcome, such a complex issue.

All one needs to do is read the reactions of so many of you on this blog since ol’ George (Mitchell) took the podium to understand how passionate, how angry, how torn and frustrated so many people are about the entire Steroid Era.

(And by the way, how unfortunate if you’re a clean player who happened to be a star in the Steroid Era, as opposed to being a star in the Deadball Era, or some other era. Hey, blame your teammates who chose not to do things the right way. And by the way, a lot of guys must be wishing Radomski accepted debit cards.)

Wouldn’t it be nice just to be able to shake the Players Association and MLB officials and everyone else in the game by their collective lapel and say, “Good God, man, just do the right thing so people can believe what they’re watching is real!”

Oh, but it’s never that simple. Hardly anything ever is that we care about.

Anyway, I’ll climb off the soapbox. I’m just another member of the media, and we’re often held accountable, too, for supposedly turning the other cheek, like trainers and agents and scouts and coaches, managers and club officials, who all had suspicions if not outright knowledge of guys on the juice during the late 1980s, throughout the 1990s, and into this decade.

And don’t think for a moment that many players, perhaps hundreds, aren’t still using HGH, which can’t be detected by urine testing, the only testing used in baseball, because it’s the only testing allowed by the Players Association. Even if they got smart (which they will, eventually) and agreed to blood testing, there’s still not an absolutely reliable blood test for HGH.

(By the way, most of those mentioned in the Mitchell Report were caught or implicated just because they happened to use the dealer who got pinched. If it had been a drug-dealing clubby or strength coach on the West Coast, you can bet the list would have tilted far more toward players from teams out there.)

By the time there is a test for HGH, some evil-genius chemist will have come up with a new undetectable designer drug to help those players determined to find something that will give them the edge. And when that drug is detectable, there will be another.

That’s how it is in the modern, ultra-lucrative world of pro sports. Ego and/or million-dollar salaries will drive highly competitive athletes to do things.

But at least baseball probably will (eventually) take more steps toward doing all it can to alleviate as much of the problem as possible, to stay on the cutting edge as much as it can. In a multi-billion-dollar industry like this, MLB can do far more than it currently does to stay on the cutting edge.

Baseball needs to turn its drug policy and enforcement over to an independent body, preferably the United States Anti-Doping Agency. And baseball needs to hire a full-time anti-doping administrator, who’d working closely with the USADA at all times.

(If you know how many assistants travel in Bud Selig’s entourage, clogging the pressbox hallway while Bud speaks to reporters about Barry Bonds, prohibiting me from getting past with my garlic fries so I can watch blog while watching the sixth inning of the Braves-Giants game right before the All-Star break, you’d know baseball has more than enough money to hire another staffer.)

Of course, MLB can’t do much of anything without the powerful union’s approval. So as much as players say, “We want to clean the sport up,” until their union agrees to more serious, year-round, unannounced urine testing, and until they agree to seriously consider something like - here’s my recommendation — once- or twice-a-year random blood testing, there are always going to be suspicions that any player doing anything extraordinary is doing it with assistance from performance-enhancing drugs.

Sorry, players, but that’s just the way it is.

Oh, and please, MLB officials, but don’t give us that garbage about not knowing there was a serious steroids problem brewing over the past couple decades.

You either knew, or you were too ignorant or disengaged from the sport to have been qualified to hold the positions you held. I mean, come on.

Either you knew, or you must have had no contact with the people in uniform, playing and coaching the game, and the people in the training rooms working on them, the ones treating the dramatic rise in tendon and ligament tears and other such injuries that should have raised red flags.

And yes, we knew. All of us who cover the games knew or had strong suspicions about certain players. But still, I’ve had about enough with the self-flagellation and self-serving indignation expressed by some in the media, admonishing themselves and us all for not writing more about it.

Because you know what? Without evidence, without hard proof, if we wrote stories about specific players we simply suspected were on ‘roids, on hearsay and rather flimsy (at least from a legal perspective) evidence of the kind implicating many in the Mitchell Report, we’d have never gotten those stories in the papers. That’s a lawsuit just waiting to happen.

It wasn’t until a federal investigation opened the BALCO can of worms that evidence of substance got into the right hands, and some very good investigative reporters at the San Francisco Chronicle worked sources and got leaked grand jury testimony and …. Well, the poopstorm began in earnest. Thankfully.

And only after another government investigation led to a former batboy/clubhouse attendant and a former strength coach flipping and turning informants, that the Mitchell investigation led to a scratching of the surface by implicating dozens of other present and past players to ‘roids and HGH.

But again, let me assure you, if reporters tried to publish stories using only the level of “evidence” the Mitchell Report contained in many instances, those stories would never get past editors and into the papers.

For instance, one player saying he heard another talk about using steroids? Beyond the fact that one player isn’t going to say that to a reporter on the record (he’s only going to say it to investigators, to save his butt), we couldn’t write that as a straight news story, naming the supposed “user” (Brian Roberts, in this case) without some proof and without talking to Roberts and getting his side of the story.

That’s how it works in most media outlets. If it wasn’t, we’d be a nation full of sensational tabloids (OK, no cynical comments from the peanut gallery) and an already gratuitous scandal-for-the-sake-of-scandal mentality would be taken to an entirely new level.

Did I ever see guys with back acne (when they were still using oil-based ‘roids) and prematurely thinning hair, and bloated muscles that we all knew weren’t natural? Yes. Of course. We all did.

But you don’t write, “Joe Blow has hit a career-high 35 homers this season, and if fans could see his back acne they’d know why. He’s a juicer, folks. A fraud.” Unless you had proof, not much you could do but ask folks, and if you think anyone was going to give you proof in the circle-the-wagons world of baseball, you probably don’t understand what a tight circle it is.

Until that bottle of andro was left in Big Mac’s locker, or that clubby was pulled over with some bad stuff in the glovebox of the player’s car he was driving … until those kinds of instances, there wasn’t much substantial evidence to write stories implicating specific players.

There wasn’t much more than the seemingly less-than-credible Jose Canseco and the pitiful Ken Caminiti talking about their own ‘roid use and how many others in the game had used.

(Time to admit it, if we haven’t already: Jose knew exactly what he was talking about. Bitter, yes? Blackballed because of controversy he stirred up? No (he was run out of the game because he could no longer play, period). But truthful? It appears so, at least in most instances.)

But getting back to the point (if I can find it again … oh yes, here it is): We all should have written and said more about ‘roid suspicions, at least in general terms that would have been permitted in the papers and on the air (wait, just about anything is permitted these days on the air, isn’t it? So scratch that.)

Hey, let’s be honest: When you’re around the game every day, covering a team and covering games and talking to players on and off the record on a daily basis for nine months a year, it would have taken a lot of stones to be able to say a lot of them were juicing before some unrefutable evidence starting showing up.

And I do know that when some baseball beat reporters tried to help out investigative reporters at their own papers, give them all they knew about ‘roid use and who was suspected of using, it usually led to closed doors and talk of privacy laws and guys refusing to rat on others because they didn’t have anything to gain by doing so (such as immunity or a lighter sentence).

Here’s another thing: Most writers, broadcasters and others got caught up in the home-run explosion that MLB and its fans enjoyed, at least initially, until things started getting completely out of hand, and guys were hitting 60 homers instead of 45, and big, bad Barry crushed records and left in his wake the feel-good moments provided by smilin’ Sammy (he was phony, but sure could smile and say cute things in that accent of his) and Big Mac (he wasn’t very friendly, but seemed like a good ‘ol working man, and at least he didn’t smirk at us like Barry).

In hindsight, you gotta wonder what might have happened if a more likable, less controversial, less cocky, surly fella than Barry had come along and smashed those records. Hmmm. Would there have been so much effort to bring him down, and put him in a situation where he could perjure himself and eventually lead to federal charges (remember, he’s not charged with using ‘roids, but with lying). I don’ know. Just wondering here, just talking off the top of my head.

Come to think of it, baseball might owe a debt of gratitude to Barry for being such an insufferable jerk. Because if he weren’t, think about it: Would we be talking about this today? Would there have even been a Mitchell investigation? Would those fine reporters at the Chronicle have been able to sink their teeth into another such story and blow the lid completely off the Steroid Era?

So, here goes: Thanks, Barry Bonds. For being who you are. Seems like no one wanted to give you a pass like some did with Big Mac, and some are now with Roger Clemens. And because so many disliked you, Barry, today baseball and its union are in a corner of sorts. They know that the court of public opinion demands they continue to move this ball (no, not Dianobal) forward and do the right thing.

”LYIN’ EYES” by Don Henley and Glenn Frey

City girls just seem to find out early

How to open doors with just a smile

A rich old man

And she won’t have to worry

She’ll dress up all in lace and go in style

Late at night a big old house gets lonely

I guess ev’ry form of refuge has its price

And it breaks her heart to think her love is only

Given to a man with hands as cold as ice

So she tells him she must go out for the evening

To comfort an old friend who’s feelin’ down

But he knows where she’s goin’ as she’s leavin’

She is headed for the cheatin’ side of town

You can’t hide your lyin’ eyes

And your smile is a thin disguise

I thought by now you’d realize

There ain’t no way to hide your lyin’ eyes

On the other side of town a boy is waiting

with fiery eyes and dreams no one could steal

She drives on through the night anticipating

‘Cause he makes her feel the way she used to feel

She rushes to his arms,

They fall together

She whispers that it’s only for awhile

She swears that soon she’ll be comin’ back forever

She pulls away and leaves him with a smile

You can’t hide your lyin’ eyes

And your smile is a thin disguise

I thought by now you’d realize

There ain’t no way to hide you lyin’ eyes

She gets up and pours herself a strong one

And stares out at the stars up in the sky

Another night, it’s gonna be a long one

She draws the shade and hangs her head to cry

She wonders how it ever got this crazy

She thinks about a boy she knew in school

Did she get tired or did she just get lazy?

She’s so far gone she feels just like a fool

My, oh my, you sure know how to arrange things

You set it up so well, so carefully

Ain’t it funny how your new life didn’t change things

You’re still the same old girl you used to be

You can’t hide your lyin eyes

And your smile is a thin disguise

I thought by now you’d realize

There ain’t no way to hide your lyin’ eyes

There ain’t no way to hide your lyin’ eyes

Honey, you can’t hide your lyin’ eyes

Permalink | Comments (713) | Post your comment |

Comments

By Salty

December 14, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

OK, start all over…1

By Chop Chop

December 14, 2007 3:50 PM | Link to this

I happened to catch a minute or two of Jose Canseco on “Larry King Live” last night. He claimed that the Mitchell Report’s statement that he gave Roger Clemens steroids was absolutely false and that he’d “take a polygraph” to prove it. Of course, the Mitchell Report doesn’t say anything about Canseco giving Clemens steroids. I turned it back to CNN a little while later and heard Canseco say something along the lines of this:

“People should really read the report before they pass judgment.”

That’s right, Jose. People really should read it before they pass judgment.

(By the way, I read “Juiced”. I thought it was a pretty good book. Whenever I see or hear Jose interviewed, I wonder who wrote it.)

By David O'Brien

December 14, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this

Daybed, loved your top 10 list (you should bring it over here to the new blog).

I’d have most of those on my list, which I’ll do sometime next week. I’d definitely have the Spoon album on my top 10 (everything they put out is brilliant), plus the Dwight Yoakam Sings Buck Owens album, and probably Jason Isbell.

And if you’re a Gram Parons fan, you’ve GOT to get the recently released two-CD set called Gram Parsons’ Live Archive, Vol. 1, him with the Flying Burrito Brothers from two shows in San Francisco in 1969, where they were opening for the Dead.

The new DBTs doesn’t officially come out until January, so can’t put it on my list. But it’d be there.

Never been a big Ween fan, but probably haven’t given them a real chance. Haven’t listened much.

By El bravo (EbX)

December 14, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

y d hate?

By Shaun

December 14, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

Speaking of the issue being complicated, what about the fans who ignored the issue and kept going to the park and continue to go to the park but act like this is the worst thing and that these players’ numbers should be wiped off the books and are adamant about calling all these players cheaters?

By BB FAN

December 14, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

Don,

All of the evidence against Clemens is circumstantial right now. If receipts are found, cycle date notes with linked to Clemens or multiple witnesses come forward, it might change.

I always suspected Clemens because his career “took off” again when he went to Toronto. Especially because people in the Red Sox organization, who watched him closely for years, thought he was winding down a solid career in 1996. Then all of sudden with Toronto, he wins 2 Cy Young awards with a combined 41-11 record, ~2.30 ERA and 560 + Strikeouts in ~499 innings at ages 34 and 35…it was very unusual. I’m not saying impossible, but … rare. His previous two years combined, he was 20-18 with ~ 3.90 ERA and ~383 innings with ~389 Strikeouts. Solid numbers and he was injured for parts of 1995. It’s questionable.

Anyway, it’s all circumstantial. Even most of the other evidence against most of the other players is circumstantial. Radomski and McNamee were either clubhouse guys and/or personal trainers. I think Radomski also has a car detailing shop. I mean those checks, while unlikely, could have been for services for something besides steroids and HGH.

I would not mind seeing baseball do a league wide investigation of the years between 1988 and 2006. I mean more than just Radomski and McNamee clients. More than just investigating Barry Bonds. It would not surprise me if Selig and/or the government ignores these others players. All they care about is nailing Bonds.

Don’t get me wrong, I think Bonds is one of the biggest a*******holes in the world, but MLB has had it in for him because of the HR record. I’m fine with exposing the abusers, but expose all of them, not just a few. And go after all of them the same way Bonds has been.

Even though I want the game cleaned up, I’m not in favor of any astericks for any records. The reason is that nobody knows what was going on in the 60’s and 70’s. We all know “greenies” were being popped like candy. SOme might think that’s not as bad, but cheating is cheating. And according to former Braves pitcher Tom House, guys would try anything to get an edge in the 60’s and 70’s.

So unless, MLB wants to expand the investigation to include the drug abuse in the 60’s and 70’s, todays players’ stats do not deserve astericks.

By Renegator

December 14, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

Great song choice DOB.

By Paul Hamilton

December 14, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

Yes, can someone please tell me why Roger Clemens gets a pass and Barry Bonds doesn’t? I can’t stand Barry Bonds, but you can’t stonewall one guy and turn the cheek on another. Baseball is so screwed up on so many levels that it isn’t funny anymore. I can’t stand Barry Bonds, but Roger Clemens just lost all credibility with me and the records he has established.

By McFann

December 14, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this

Hey, what’s going on? Why isn’t this thing working?

By David O'Brien

December 14, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this

Apparently the blog got jammed and a couple of the first posts got held up. Sorry, McFann and Superadam. I see them in there in the holding pen, as I like to call it, but they’re stuck.

By Daybed Wagmoe

December 14, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this

dang, for some reason it posted my Top CDs of 2007 list in reverse order (on the other blog). here it is in the correct order (starting at no. 10, finishing at no. 1) for those interested…

Bruce Springsteen, “Magic” - good, strong album.

Radiohead, “In Rainbows” - i haven’t really gotten into this album much, which is why it’s rather high on the list, but i’ve heard it enough to know it’s great.

Black Francis, “Bluefinger” - very nice to hear frank black return to thrashing hard rock.

I’m Not There soundtrack - this album has some good covers of dylan songs, and it’s got some amazing covers of dylan songs.

Wilco, “Sky Blue Sky” - i might go as far to say that this is their best work since “summerteeth.” definitely better than “a ghost is born,” probably better than “yankee hotel foxtrot” in terms of consistency and quality of each song.

The National, “Boxer” - a very cool album that mixes rock with melancholy very well. a very good live band, too.

Band of Horses, “Cease to Begin” - awesome rock cd, great energy and lyrics, and like Bryan said, has the old REM sound.

Ween, “La Cucaracha”/”Friends” ep - i had been looking forward to this album for a while and wasn’t at all disappointed. it’s one of their best efforts, with tons of variety from song to song. the ep that came out a months before was a nice preview as well.

Arcade Fire, “Neon Bible” - incredible album, tons of power on here. “black mirror” is an amazing album opener, and as sophmore efforts, this one is among the best.

Queens of the Stone Age, “Era Vulgaris” - i haven’t seen this one on many lists so far, but i love every song on here. i usually don’t listen to the harder stuff much, but this album rocks.

By 74 Dawg

December 14, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this

Perfect song to finish this sad story. If baseball doesn’t take this opportunity to put its house in order , Congress just might do it for them. Baseball has some of the absolute DUMBEST ownership/mgmt of any professional sport. It reminds me of what the Billionaire, Hunt (was it Lamar?) once said about his sons squandering their inheritance: he left them so much they couldn’t possibly waste it all. Well, the people who run baseball are about to find out everything is finite, including thenational past time’s goodwill factor. They MUST get it right this time,union or no union.

By uga-brave

December 14, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this

love that new blog smell.way to go roger, deny all you want it just makes it worse.

By TennesseePaul

December 14, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

Excellent Blog DOB. Keep up the good work.

Now it’s time for the Union to step up. No more of this crap they’ve been shovelin’ for the past decade and a half.

By David O'Brien

December 14, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

Shaun, good point at 3:52.

By Don

December 14, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

Well done Dave O’Brien.

I’ll be looking to see if the presumed non-using good guys of stature in the game (like John Smoltz) are willing to break ranks with the union and say they’re sick and tired of playing with and against cheaters. But I’m not holding my breath on that.

I suspect that if the owners and the union don’t open up the collective bargaining agreement to add an independent arm for drug testing as the Mitchell report recommends that Congress is going to get into this in a big way.

By Steve McP

December 14, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

DOB - how deep do you think this abuse went? All the way through the minors? College?

It is surely only a matter of time before somebody breaks ranks on the West Coast, and maybe in the South East as well and then we could see pockets of people being outed - there will almost certainly now be a rash of tell all’s from people jumping on the bandwagon, some of whom may just make it up to get noticed, so for sure it is going to be a roller coaster ride.

I wonder whether MLB and the Players could come to some agreement to say that all that has been in the past stays in the past (some sort of amnesty?). To assure crowds that everyone is playing fairly then it would also need testing going ahead that is as rigourous as Olympic athletes have to face - which is more stringent than any of the other professional sports, including out of competition testing and players having to confirm when they will be available for a test every day and tests then being random and unannounced).

I certainly am more interested in knowing that the game I am watching now is clean and fair.

The results of the past cannot be changed, if for instance players that admit (or are found guilty of) substance abuse are stripped of MVP awards, Cy Youngs etc, what happens a reelection for those years? What if the replacements are then found to be guilty later?

You cant change the Yankees run of World Series victories, how many of the teams that they were playing were also including juiced players - most by the sound of it.

With reference to Barry I think that this will open him up to the HOF as almost all records for the last 20 years will need to have asterisks, so unless nobody is elected from this period the steroid issue will be part of the area.

Relating again to drugs in athletics, the East Germans, Russians and Chinese were experts at using them and many records remain on the books (mostly in women’s sports) but they are asterisked and secondary records are maintained for sport excluding that era - baseball could maybe do the same.

By A.J.

December 14, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this

Very nice, Master O’Brien, just the kind of things people need to be saying, and really what baseball should be doing. Taking responsibility, explaining why they didn’t do anything sooner (not making excuses) and moving on.

As much as I hate to say it, I really don’t know how they can punish anyone for this, because like DOB said, the only things keeping a few Braves from getting caught is that the big wigs don’t know who they got it from.

I believe there are some teams that were writhe with the stuff and others that maybe had just a few outliers, and I hope the Braves were in the second catagory.

But as much as I’d like to see Bonds, Clemens, Giambi, Sheffield go down for this, the real fact is that it wasn’t just the jerks who did it but a lot of good guys too (like Pettitte). I guarantee you if some Braves who I loved popped up I’d want to do all I could to prove them innocent.

Like Paul Byrd, I think he’s a great guy, and I really want to believe him. Some of the stuff was pretty shady, but at the same time he tells a good story (not to mention he had already put all that info in his book before the news went public). If he was a jerk or even just never a Brave, I probably wouldn’t believe him at all.

There lies the other problem: these guys are only varying degrees of caught. Some guys are dead to rights and others have almost no proof against them.

The only really good thing about this report is that maybe MLB can use it to turn the screws on the MLBPA and really get something accomplished to stop the stuff. Maybe once we have a legitimate system stopping the stuff in the future, we can go back and try to sort out the past.

By glorydays

December 14, 2007 4:09 PM | Link to this

I have never heard Ron Gant mentioned as a steroid user, if I could pick one player that went from a normal size human being superhuman over the course of a few months it is Ron Gant. Tell me if I’m wrong.

By Section 412

December 14, 2007 4:19 PM | Link to this

Comment from up in the cheap seats — I’m one of those fans Shaun referenced. While I would like to see a level playing field going forward, it’s not like I stayed away from the game in the past, despite a strong feeling that there were cheaters. In fact, I bought tickets for a couple of Giants games outside of my season tickets specifically to see Bonds play. I’m NOT a fan of his (AT ALL), but I thought I needed to go see one of the central figures in the game up close while he was in town. This report does nothing to change the enjoyment I got from watching him hit a towering home run, watching Andruw go over the wall to rob the Phillies player, watching Micah Owings (of all people) hit rope after rope that rainy night in Georgia, watching Smoltz on one of his vintage days, … Bottom line, clean it up going forward, but the past is over. Can’t change it. Let’s move on. See you in Section 412 for opening day, and on through the playoffs.

By RC

December 14, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this

Glorydays: You are wrong.

By Shaun

December 14, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this

I’m not trying to be an apologist and I think we can all agree that use of steriods or anything like steroids is immoral. But you can certainly understand how this came about.

You’re an athlete and the difference between $30,000-$40,000 a year and a few million dollars a year is taking something that there are no rules against and there is a slim to none chance that it could be detected and you could get off of it in time for your body to not be severely damaged by it. It’s easy to understand why players were caught up in this.

Again, I think it’s immoral and it’s illegal. But how many people do things that are illegal, immoral or even harmful because it benefits them and they can’t get caught?

By Bay Area Steve

December 14, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this

TennPaul,

Thank you for the link to the Fairfield Echo. I didn’t want to bother with Firefox or Safari, and that site is a great alternative. It loads the 1000 posts in less than 30 seconds.

Interesting that a paper in Ohio links to the blog. I wonder how many others are out there, and how they calculate things like page hits and advertising. Anyhow, thanks again.

By David O'Brien

December 14, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

Section 412, I’d be one of them, too. I’d have paid to watch if I weren’t being paid to be there. If you love the game, you love the game. It’s a terrific game.

Takes an awful lot to keep away a true fan of baseball. Plenty of casual fans will stay home, sure, over this or over a strike 15 years ago or whatever. But hardcore fans? I think most of them still come, if they’re close to a ballpark and are fortunate enough to be able to afford the prices. And if they can’t be there, I think most of them have kept watching on TV whenever they can.

By RC

December 14, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

After reading most of the report and seeing some of the spotty “evidence” they have that some players used, I would hope that any innocent players would take legal action against Mitchell and his team for defamation. The person who would seem the most likely would be David Justice, since he orignally cooperated with the investigation, said that he NEVER used any substance but didn’t deny it’s availability, and there is no evidence of the CHECK he supposedly wrote for HGH, even though they have scores of other checks. I cannot claim to know whether he is innocent or not, but based on the evidence, I’m sure giving him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

By Another Lifelong Atlantan

December 14, 2007 4:30 PM | Link to this

Everyone always says the real victims in all of this is the players that are “clean’, the vast majority. There is only a little sympathy on my part for them. If they were the majority, they could have forced the Players Union to agree to testing. Instead, they sat by and covered for the cheaters. That essentially makes them accomplices.

By BRAVES BLOG

December 14, 2007 4:36 PM | Link to this

This blog blows. This is a BRAVES blog. Erase this and start over. Thanks. Also, we’d like a picture of you somewhere on this site.

By A.J.

December 14, 2007 4:39 PM | Link to this

As far as Shaun’s remark about the fans, we should have known better, but at the same time, I’m not someone who was going to baseball games just because guys started hitting tons of homers, and I’m not going to stop because of that either.

I just love baseball and I want to root for my team.

That’s the same for all those things that keep fans away. A strike won’t make me give up the sport. I am going to be first in line when they come back.

If noone else (and by that I mean other fans, but also players, organizations, media, MLB) is going to do anything, then I’m not going to let a few cheaters deprive me of the game I love.

It is sad, because the people with the most ability to change things (fans with their money) were also the people with the least means to get to the bottom of it.

Now that things have been brought into the open by all of those other outlets, I think fans should do what they can to show their disapproval, but staying away isn’t necessarily the way to do it.

Boo, make signs, whatever. What brought all this stuff down wasn’t that fans stopped going to the park. It was because when baseball’s all-time records were being broken, instead of being excited, baseball was embarrassed. When guys like Bonds at the pinnacle of achievement are booed unmercifully, that’s when baseball reacts.

When the commissioner is trying to avoid seeing 756, that is when the message is getting home.

Boycotts only hurt the small market teams, because when the diehard local fans stay home, those teams start to die out and only bandwagon fans in their Yankees and Red Sox hats are left. (Not to mention those fans will just go watch the NFL, where noone uses HGH. Like they need more fans.)

Fans surely have been hypocritical, but I want this game to continue and it needs fans to do so.

By David O'Brien

December 14, 2007 4:39 PM | Link to this

TennPaul, how the H did you find that link to this blog at the Fairfield, Ohio paper? You’re a genius, man (at least in this corner of the blogosphere).

Mike, fine job finishing up business on the other blog. Mission accomplished. Your check’s in the mail.

By Lew

December 14, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

Don (Not DonC)-From the other blog-Thanks very much for comparing me to a member of the OJ Jury. Remind me to say something nice about you sometime, too. What a jerk. As if anyone who took steroids, WERE YOU ABLE TO PROVE IT, were in any way comparable to an ex jock who decapitated his wife. Priorities, Dude, priorities.

I don’t, as DOB puts it in his excellent blog (though not in reference to me), give Clemens a pass. However, this is still The Good Ole USA, isn’t it? Aren’t we presumed innocent until proven guilty? If you want to take me to task for something, you damn well better come up with better evidence than you think I did whatever you think I did. You better have more than the useless word of an admitted Law Breaker, bent on covering his own @$$. However, the word of people with their own agendas, trying to cover their own behinds and the fact you think he got bigger, doesn’t constitute proof. It is speculation and supposition at best. It is circumstantial. The guy still denies he took roids and there is no way you can definitively prove a damn thing. Sorry, but that’s the way our system works (or at least is supposed to).

If a plan to do independent testing our using blood tests is implemented, I would not mind in the least. I have no problem with the penalties now imposed. I have no problem if penalties are made even stronger. Franly, anyone today who tests positive deserves sanctions for being an idiot, if nothing else. Go for it. However, there were no such measures implemented during this entire fiasco and you can’t just go in Post Facto and decide people are guilty because you think they are.

Did Clemens, Sosa, McGuire, Bonds, Brady Anderson and others use PED’s? Yeah, they probably did. Does common sense and a closer look at their physiques and records tell you anything? Again, maybe so, But you can’t claim people are guilty if you have no definitive proof. You don’t and MLB does not either. You cannot convict on what is known or supposed in this case. No matter how much you may want to lynch the whole group, it just isn’t done this way in the Land Of the Free and The Home of The Quarter Pounder with Cheese (and Home of The Braves). It is just UnAmerican. It goes against all our judicial principles. As for the whistle blowers-“Objection, Your Honor It goes to witness credibility-didn’t he get a deal for his testimony?” Enough. Why can’t we just discuss Carl Crawford? Do you think the Rays would trade him for Prado and Thorman?

By BossLady

December 14, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

Back in the days when homeruns were a feat and was considered among the miracles of the world, we loved and appreciated when one was hit. Now with the juiced balls and players, homeruns are a dime a dozen. A really good baseball game is 2 to 1 with no walks or errors. But, the generations of late thinks baseball is too slow. So keeping the fans coming in and spending the big bucks, the organization, gm, managers and players “play to” the multitudes. Look at all the new stadiums. Back then stadiums were monuments and meant something, now they go up like cheap condos.

By Carlton Powell

December 14, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this

Agree with BB Fan above. A LOT of baseball people were baffled by The Rocket’s resurgence in Toronto and NY. I think his record in Boston the last few years was something like 40-39. Nothing really stellar. And remember his fastball HAD looked to have lost some of it’s pop. Then, he goes to Toronto and has great years. But, yes the evidence IS circumstantial. The Rocket needs to get out front of this issue N-O-W. As for hitters, one wonders what Ted Williams would have hit if his career wasn’t interrupted twice because of WWII and The Korean Conflict, and he’d been juiced up. He lost a total of 5 seasons. He is the real life John Wayne in my books. And remember, The Splinter was about 6’4” and weighed probably 175 lbs. when he hit .406. Baseball had better find a way of fixing this problem fast. Nothing that happens is believable now.

By McFann

December 14, 2007 4:43 PM | Link to this

I just wanted to say that I liked your song choice thingy, whateveryou wanna call it…uh…that’s it.

By Shaun

December 14, 2007 4:45 PM | Link to this

Section 412, I think a simplistic point that no one wants to bring up is the fact that some of us believe that PED use is wrong, harmful to the game, etc., but not as wrong and harmful as some other things that could happen or have happened to the game in the past.

Of course we want the game to be clean and pure and the use of PEDs is disappointing but it’s somewhat been blown out of proportion, especially at this point when baseball has done a lot and is still doing a lot to make sure the game is as clean as possible. Yes, it happened and is happening a little slower than would be ideal but the tide is turning and the game is being cleaned up.

This idea that this is a disaster, a tragedy and the end of the game as we know it is ridiculous. It’s a black mark and needed to be dealt with, no doubt, but it’s not something that’s going to destroy baseball in this country and something that the game can’t overcome.

By AdirondackDave

December 14, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

Wow, DOB. You really are a treasure for baseball fans. I guess I’ve read or heard most of the stuff being said in the last two days about the steroids issue and the Mitchell Report and your lead article on this blog is the most thoughtful and balanced material on the issue I have seen. Your work is always perceptive but you’ve raised the bar for all of us with this one. Thanks a million.

By BIG DADDY

December 14, 2007 4:48 PM | Link to this

My dad, a law enforcement officer for many years told me once, “there are only two classes of people, the caught and the uncaught.”

I think he may well have been right.

By Bay Area Steve

December 14, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this

Exactly what I thought re TennPaul. How did he find this? Makes me think that maybe a lot of papers are doing it. And I called it a link earlier, but it’s not. It’s like the regular blog that you can post to, just on their site. Weird.

By Shaun

December 14, 2007 4:50 PM | Link to this

Not to mention those fans will just go watch the NFL, where noone uses HGH. Like they need more fans.

Right…no one in the NFL uses PEDs…sure.

By Rodney Derrick

December 14, 2007 4:51 PM | Link to this

When David Justice appeared this morning on ESPN radio, he was very strong and convincing in his innocence. And he said there was never any discussion of steroids when he was with the Braves! However, apparently when he was in the minors in Double A, there was some discussion, he said. You have to give him some credit. I think he is the only player mentioned to come forward on his own with a strong, clear statement of his innocence, and there is nothing out there to show any guilt, no receipt, nothing.

By doc

December 14, 2007 4:59 PM | Link to this

good blog dave as usual but a difficult topic. i had a comment or two blown up on my computer last night and you have pretty much said it all and hit all the salient points.

sad to say that canseco might have underestimated the amount of users when he had it at what 80%? who in their right mind on the outside looking in or in the borderline territory not participate. it is especially true if a i am pretty good and about ready to be considered for a long term contract at big numbers?

having been offered anabolic steroids in 1969 after my freshman year in college to “get strong” for the next season by a kid from another local program who had gotten them from his own college coach i would think that there has been more than a few using even in the 70’s. that along with the greenies that were well described by the first “rat” jim bouton in his book ball four.

face it the drug enhancement culture pervades professional athletics in all sports where strength and power make a difference. though hgh isnt as effective as some of the ones detectable it also is not detectable and probably wont be detectable by any test in the near future outside of genetic testing of the hgh in someones blood so some will continue to take it. sad and sorry state of affairs which leaves me at a point where i dont take individual achievement as being that significant and only look to the team element or the individual matchups for players of the era or within the individual games for my pleasure in any sport.

By Steamboat

December 14, 2007 5:00 PM | Link to this

To get to the very bottom of the issue… there is NO WAY to prove that Clemens or anyone else took steroids or HGH, unless there is a clinical test indicating that they did, or a dirty needle from, say, 2001, with both banned substances and the player’s DNA on it (not likely).

You MIGHT prove they consorted with people who sold drugs; you might prove they gave those people money; and you might prove that packages were shipped.

So, maybe you could “prove” that these guys purchased illegal drugs - a federal crime - but I don’t see how it could be proved that they took them.

It may be splitting hairs, but I do think it’s an important distinction; baseball will have no authority for ruling that these guys USED banned substances, and therefore can’t really do anything about it.

By A.J.

December 14, 2007 5:16 PM | Link to this

Shaun, I love you sarcastically respond to my already sarcastic quote by acting as though I was being sincere.

Way to ruin my sarcasm denoting italics by putting the whole thing in italics.

By Section 412

December 14, 2007 5:17 PM | Link to this

Shaun - agree again. This is clearly a black mark, but the report is merely a snapshot and a representative sample of what went on. It is nowhere near comprehensive or substantive enough to use it to draw dire conclusions. As an observer of this blog for about a year now and a first-time poster (I thought it wise to “redshirt” and learn the blogging game a little better before jumping in), I can tell you that I will be back in the (relatively) cheap seats once again in March. And, Lew, I agree - what I wouldn’t give for a good trade rumor about now!!

By Anders

December 14, 2007 5:19 PM | Link to this

Barry Bonds being such a jerk definetly played a role in the desire for something like the Mitchell report being carried out, but ironically the Mitchell report officially showed Barry was far from alone (including even such God fearing players as Pettitte) which in turn I believe will take a lot of the pressure of Barry in regards to him carrying all the weight of the steroid controversy. I still can’t stand the guy and will never acknowledge his home run records personally (Same as I didn’t for McGuire) but we surely had some of our worst suspicions about the wide spread use of steroids confirmed this week.

By Lew

December 14, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this

Back when I was a Grad student at UGA in 1980, knowing the Phillies were coming into Atlanta to play the Braves (I know a Phillies coach), I wrangled a Press Pass from the UGA radio station. Got to interview the Coach by the batting cage and go to the locker rooms after the game.

The Phillies locker room was quite interesting for fans who didn’t get to do this often-if ever. Got to talk to Steve Carlton (you’d be surprised what compliments instead of contention do to people who won’t talk to press), Pete Rose and I joked a bit, and got to talk to McCarver, who had just retired.

I also got to talk to Mike Schmidt-even tried to interview him. The use of the Nautilus equipment (which maybe just happened to coincide with the rise of steroid use) had just become the new exercise rage. I asked Schmidt if he would mind explaining how this equipment had changed his exercise and conditioning regimen. His attitude got a bit cooler and he referred me to the Trainer. End of interview. Now the question is this-does this lead me to believe, in hindsight, that he was juicing and was loathe to discuss it because of that? Answer-who the hell knows? And just as assuredly, who the hell knows what most of these other accused did? Supposition is meaningless. It doesn’t matter WHAT I think his reticence may or may not have implied, because I have no knowledge, nor should I open myself to useless conjecture. It proved just as little as most of the supposition in the current situation.

By Bryan

December 14, 2007 5:28 PM | Link to this

here is my top ten from the last blog:

  1. Radiohead - In Rainbows (gets better and better with every listen)

  2. UGK - Underground Kings - best truly southern hip-hop cd since Aquemini … bluesy/bling …

  3. Band of Horses - Cease to Begin (i can’t stop listening … all the reviewers are comparing them to My Morning Jacket and the Flaming Lips and they are missing the R.E.M. reckoning/murmur/fables sound!

  4. Talib Kweli - Ear Drum - Look, i don’t know how many times he can say “i didn’t go no where” … but guess what Talib, you did go somewhere and it sucked and this CD is awesome! Glad your back!

  5. Ween - La Cucaracha - Ween’s best effort since … well … its better than quebec and if you can listen to music that doesn’t take itself to seriously (kinda like Bowie) then this cd is your you!

  6. Tony Trischka - Double Banjo Bluegrass Spectacular - nuf said!

  7. Wilco - Sky Blue Sky - Sometimes Jeff makes me want to kick him in the nuts. Sometimes his love songs make me feel like i got kicked in the nuts… its a strange relationship i have with wilco

  8. Kanye West - Graduation - The single blows, but the rest of the album will stand the test of time as being one of the best “produced” albums of the 00’s … he still can’t rap! Save those beats for someone else!

  9. Devandra Banhart - Smokey Rolls Down Thunder Canyon - Ok, so this should really be higher … i think this might be my sleeper for top 3, but i am too lazy to cut and paste! I would highly recommend this cd to anyone who likes weird, genuine, folk music that blends 50’s melodies and Portuguese culture … and 70 ‘s acid rock!

  10. Jay-Z - American Gangster - I used to hate Jay-Z … now he is on my top ten list … go figure!

By Shaun

December 14, 2007 5:31 PM | Link to this

AJ, sorry. Hard to detect sarcasm on a computer screen.

By David O'Brien

December 14, 2007 5:32 PM | Link to this

Steamboat, at the end of your post you wrote: “It may be splitting hairs, but I do think it’s an important distinction; baseball will have no authority for ruling that these guys USED banned substances, and therefore can’t really do anything about it.”

Very true. And beyond that, keep in mind there was NO PENALTY for first-time positive steroid test before 2005. So how in the world can you penalize a player retroactively? Can’t. And they won’t, I’d be willing to bet, despite Bud’s comments about case-by-case basis enforcement, etc.

Too late to right the wrongs of the past, Bud. Just make an honest effort to get it right going forward. The penalties for the past known users will be ridicule for many in the court of public opinion, not to mention jeopardizing Hall of Fame odds for some who’d otherwise be locks.

By Bryan

December 14, 2007 5:34 PM | Link to this

my top 10 from the last blog (i have been having a hard time posting … )

  1. Radiohead - In Rainbows (gets better and better with every listen)

  2. UGK - Underground Kings - best truly southern hip-hop cd since Aquemini … bluesy/bling …

  3. Band of Horses - Cease to Begin (i can’t stop listening … all the reviewers are comparing them to My Morning Jacket and the Flaming Lips and they are missing the R.E.M. reckoning/murmur/fables sound!

  4. Talib Kweli - Ear Drum - Look, i don’t know how many times he can say “i didn’t go no where” … but guess what Talib, you did go somewhere and it sucked and this CD is awesome! Glad your back!

  5. Ween - La Cucaracha - Ween’s best effort since … well … its better than quebec and if you can listen to music that doesn’t take itself to seriously (kinda like Bowie) then this cd is your you!

  6. Tony Trischka - Double Banjo Bluegrass Spectacular - nuf said!

  7. Wilco - Sky Blue Sky - Sometimes Jeff makes me want to kick him in the nuts. Sometimes his love songs make me feel like i got kicked in the nuts… its a strange relationship i have with wilco

  8. Kanye West - Graduation - The single blows, but the rest of the album will stand the test of time as being one of the best “produced” albums of the 00’s … he still can’t rap! Save those beats for someone else!

  9. Devandra Banhart - Smokey Rolls Down Thunder Canyon - Ok, so this should really be higher … i think this might be my sleeper for top 3, but i am too lazy to cut and paste! I would highly recommend this cd to anyone who likes weird, genuine, folk music that blends 50’s melodies and Portuguese culture … and 70 ‘s acid rock!

  10. Jay-Z - American Gangster - I used to hate Jay-Z … now he is on my top ten list … go figure!

By TennesseePaul

December 14, 2007 5:34 PM | Link to this

Bay Area Steve: You’re welcome. I’m glad you find it useful.

DOB: I know a thing or two about computers, the web, and ham sandwiches.

Another point about the ‘roid era: what about all the devout fans that dedicated their lives to statistical analysis and kept seeing records fall, daily, weekly, single game, career, single season, over all production, constantly pointing out that runs in the “good ol’ days” were harder to come by and now they’re a dime a dozen and did nothing about it?
Well, it is a lot of work done maticulously documenting the greed of the players and owners and comparing it to the days of when the owners were greedy dictators of the sport.

Francoeur is in a tight situation. He has to “protect the union” but all it does is further tarnish the players’ reputation. Maybe he can get a petition going to get a real drug testing policy in place.

By DonCoburleone

December 14, 2007 5:35 PM | Link to this

I just don’t get why everybody see steroids and HGH as something worse and more evil than other forms of cheating… Look at the history of baseball: Black Sox scandal; The Spit Ball era (since when is putting a foreign substance on the ball legal?); African-Americans not allowed into the league until 1947; 1951 New York Giants - sign-stealing system in place at the Polo Grounds; Gaylord Perry - loaded the baseball with Vaseline; Norm Cash corking his bat in 1961 (BA - .361, HRs - 41, RBIs - 132)and almost beat Maris in the MVP voting; Joe Neikro used an emory board and sandpaper on his finger to throw nasty sliders and knuckleballs; Whitey Ford - doctored balls, sliced cuts into balls, and threw a “gunk” ball made of mud, baby oil, turpentine, and resin; Cocaine in the 1970’s; Amphetamines in the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s; Steroids/HGH in the 90’s and 00’s… A bunch of old farts in the media who think back and reminess about the “good old days” when baseball and sports were “pure”. Kiss my a$$ with all that, tired of hearing about this generation (MY generation) of baseball players being inherently evil while all players of the past were as pure as the driven snow…

By MikeS

December 14, 2007 5:37 PM | Link to this

No problem, DOB. I don’t get to post on here nearly as much as I’d like to (although I’m always lurking), so I jumped at the chance to get a bunch of posts in there. And since my wife and I are just now watching season 4 of The Wire (in about 4 days mind you), being able to quote the greatest show on TV was just a bonus. Man, that’s a great show. They are outdoing themselves with Season 4. I can’t wait until next year when Season 5 premieres on HBO (although I don’t look forward to the torment of having to wait AN ENTIRE WEEK for new episodes. We’ve watched all of the old seasons on DVD, so we’d go through 3-4 episodes a night and be through in no time. One episode a week is going to be tough…

By DonCoburleone

December 14, 2007 5:40 PM | Link to this

I just don’t get why everybody see steroids and HGH as something worse and more evil than other forms of cheating… Look at the history of baseball: Black Sox scandal; The Spit Ball era (since when is putting a foreign substance on the ball legal?); African-Americans not allowed into the league until 1947; 1951 New York Giants - sign-stealing system in place at the Polo Grounds; Gaylord Perry - loaded the baseball with Vaseline; Norm Cash corking his bat in 1961 (BA - .361, HRs - 41, RBIs - 132)and almost beat Maris in the MVP voting; Joe Neikro used an emory board and sandpaper on his finger to throw nasty sliders and knuckleballs; Whitey Ford - doctored balls, sliced cuts into balls, and threw a “gunk” ball made of mud, baby oil, turpentine, and resin; Cocaine in the 1970’s; Amphetamines in the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s; Steroids/HGH in the 90’s and 00’s… A bunch of old farts in the media who think back and reminess about the “good old days” when baseball and sports were “pure”. Kiss my a$$ with all that, tired of hearing about this generation (MY generation) of baseball players being inherently evil while all players of the past were as pure as the driven snow…

By David O'Brien

December 14, 2007 5:42 PM | Link to this

CARLTON, enjoyed your comment on Ted.

To me, Ted and Hank were and might always be the two best all-around hitters the game will ever know, and by that I mean guys who hit for power and average. And both of them were under 200 pounds. Imagine what they’d do with today’s technology and pharmacology.

On second thought, let’s not. More satisfying just knowing they did what they did naturally.

By David O'Brien

December 14, 2007 5:46 PM | Link to this

MikeS, the Wire is starting up again soon after Christmas. Gonna be great, I’m sure. Love that show as much as you do. And this year’s “theme” is … the press.

By Bay Area Steve

December 14, 2007 5:48 PM | Link to this

Lew,

I’m reading as always today, and I understand your point. Certainly, we cannot prove use beyond a reasonable doubt in most, if not all, cases.

But, for me, I will use a lesser standard. Just like a civil court, I will use a preponderance of the evidence. And the Mitchell Report, in many cases(not Roberts or Justice), is enough for me to conclude these players used.

I’m not looking for jail time, or really any discipline for the offenders. I’d like the sport cleaned up, and I’d like to know who cheated. Circumstantial evidence is enough, for me.

By AdirondackDave

December 14, 2007 5:53 PM | Link to this

DonC - Really, you don’t see any difference between steroids, etc. which play havoc with the body, eventually raising all sorts of physical risks including cancers… and users of the spitball, etc.? You don’t see the implications here for teenager athletes at the height of their development seeing their heros use the stuff and concluding its ok if you don’t get caught because “everybody does it?’

By TennesseePaul

December 14, 2007 5:53 PM | Link to this

Lew: Schmidt contends he never juiced. But he also admits he was a surly SOB to anyone who came his way. In his book, Clearing the Bases, he chimes in on the use of ‘roids. Initially he says he would have used them had they been around. Then he says he wouldn’t have used them because of the long term consequences. Not the health issues, the pride issues. He says, due to the tarnished image it gives to the player and the questionable ability to make it to the HOF he would not have taken them. He’s proud of his career and makes a point of telling you as much on every page of that book. He says all the money in the world isn’t worth taking roids and not going to the HOF.

By Ray

December 14, 2007 5:53 PM | Link to this

I will sum it up quickly. I can’t wait for spring training. Are there dirty players of course there is. There are changes in the game all the time. Sometimes good sometimes not so good. The mound being lowered, the introduction of the DH, expansion, and of course the introduction of HGH and steroids into the game. My whole point on that is the game survives. It adjusts to the changes. In the report, guys like Brian Roberts, I would definitely be screaming from the top of the mountain if I was innocent. And not letting it go. Clemens, if he is innocent as he claims, he has the name, the resources, legally and financially to fight it and to get his reputation back. If he does not make it an all out effort to clear his name like he would in a 7th game of a World Series, then in my personal opinion he is guilty of being a doped up player.

By William

December 14, 2007 5:56 PM | Link to this

DOB, You’re absolutely right. If Barry Bonds wasn’t such a jerk-off, nobody would ever have cared about steroids, HGH or any performance enhancing drugs in MLB. Canseco’s book wouldn’t have made a ripple after the first 15 minutes and things would have remained business as usual. Moreover, some good has come of the “scandal” as steroids have become controlled substances as of 2004 and MLB now tests its players and actually does something about it when they test positive. But the whole thing has gotten so out of hand. MLB didn’t start drug testing for real until 2003 or ban any of these substances until President Bush signed the Anabolic Steroid Control Act into law in October 2004. If you read the Mitchell Report (I only read Dayn Perry’s summary on Fox Sports, I’m not insane enough to read 400 plus pages of that stuff) and it’s all about shenanigans that went on before these substances were even prohibited. Whether morally repugnant or not, the players named in the report are being vilified about steroid use that went in 2002 and before - when it was still legal both by law and the MLB collective bargaining agreement. To rag on these players now, 5 years later, is just fanning the flames for no good reason and ruining the reputations of some really good ballplayers. Hell, the statute of limitations for felony possession of cocaine in Georgia is 4 years. Now, 5 years later, why should these players be treated as criminals for something that was permissible at the time? The “tainting” and “subversion” of hitting and pitching records accrued in the 1990’s is arguable, but that’s just it - an argument. It’s just as arguable to say that Babe Ruth had it a little easier in his day because gloves were smaller, the players weren’t as big, athletic or fast, and he didn’t face starters who only went 6 innings, then fresh set-up men in the 7th and 8th innings, then a closer in the 9th. No, he got to face tired starters who pitched 9 innings whether they had it that day or not because that’s what everyone did in that era. I don’t like the argument because the Babe will always be one of my heroes, but it is what it is - an argument. Rafael Palmeiro, lying dog that he is, was a great ballplayer who will probably never get into the HOF now. Are we going to do the same thing to Roger Clemens now because he’s a bad person? If the Rocket gets locked out the HOF, then Ty Cobb, mean-spirited racist that he was, has to go, too. Which is stupid both ways. Besides, “if you ain’t cheatin’ you ain’t tryin’”. Bottom line, all this hoopla about the Mitchell report is just looking for a “scandal” where nothing even approaching that level of corruption exists. This isn’t the Black Sox Scandal of 1918 - get over it. It’s not only yesterday’s news, it’s 2002 news.

By MikeS

December 14, 2007 6:02 PM | Link to this

Oh, and DOB I meant to say, very well-written blog today. I thought you made some excellent points, very fluently. I guarantee you Buster is linking to this one in his next article and saying something about “here’s a great take on the roids era from a writer’s perspective.”

Count me in as one with Section 412 and others, who won’t let this keep us away from the game we love. I mean, yea, I’d rather the game be clean (or at the very least be able to tell definitively who is or wasn’t clean), but that’s never going to happen completely (nor has it ever happened in the history of all sports - people will always find a way to cheat). Juiced players or not, baseball is a great game and will always keep my interest.

By bruce

December 14, 2007 6:05 PM | Link to this

MAY I TESTIFY?

Just loaded the Safari browser (as recommended on previous blog by Salty and praised by Roman Gal) and tested it on the previous blog which has 1004 posts . Safari loaded it that blog in less than 3 seconds while subsequent retest of IE was abandoned after 20 seconds (actually was taking minutes for me). Sold. Thanks! Bruce

By Fat Elvis

December 14, 2007 6:05 PM | Link to this

cant walk out Because I love you too much baby

Why cant you see What youre doing to me When you dont believe a word I say?

We cant go on together With suspicious minds And we cant build our dreams On suspicious minds

So, if an old friend I know Drops by to say hello Would I still see suspicion in your eyes?

Here we go again Asking where Ive been You cant see these tears are real Im crying

We cant go on together With suspicious minds And be cant build our dreams On suspicious minds

Oh let our love survive Or dry the tears from your eyes Lets dont let a good thing die

When honey, you know Ive never lied to you Mmm yeah, yeah

By bruce

December 14, 2007 6:07 PM | Link to this

MAY I TESTIFY?

Just loaded the Safari browser (as recommended on previous blog by Salty and praised by Roman Gal) and tested it using the previous blog which has 1004 posts. Safari loaded that blog in less than 3 seconds while subsequent retest of IE was abandoned after 20 seconds (actually was taking minutes for me). Sold. Thanks! Bruce

By Dennis Green

December 14, 2007 6:09 PM | Link to this

The players are what we thought they were!!

By Lew

December 14, 2007 6:10 PM | Link to this

Bay Area Steve-The problem with lowered standards is that supposition is STILL not evidence. Sorry. Be P!$$ed off all you want, but it’s over and you can’t go back. Think of the Era as you will and cheer when certain guys don’t get admission to the HOF. Other than that, there are really no options. Time to move on.

One of the biggest problems in this country to my way of thinking is the incessant need to assign blame and to seek retribution. These guys harmed themselves and maybe gave the sport a bad name (though I feel they are no worse than ANY major sport. Maybe this once we should just settle for identifying a problem and making sure it doesn’t happen in he future. We have many much more pressing issues to deal with.

This really doesn’t register on the Richter Scale as far as I’m concerned. I’m much more worried about whether or not Hampton can come back, who will play center for us, the Alternative Minimum Tax and the price of those liquified dinosaurs I need to stay warm during our coming Nor’Easter on Sunday than I am about who took what years ago.

What is that line the 12 Stepper’s use? Something about changing what you can and the wisdom to know the difference? Nothing to be accomplished in this situation that isn’t already being dealt with. Maybe we should try being wise for once. Couldn’t hurt.

By MikeS

December 14, 2007 6:10 PM | Link to this

Wow. I bet you’ll love the press “theme”. I can’t wait.

Oh, and I finally saw No Country for Old Men last weekend. Great movie, as most everyone has said. I though Josh Brolin, Javier Bardem, and Tommy Lee Jones were all fantastic. Just great performances by all 3 of them (Woody was good too, in his brief showing).

Unfortunately, my wife didn’t enjoy it nearly as much as I did. It was more of the “Blood Simple” style of Coen Brothers movie in my opinion, and less as much like Lebowski, Fargo, or Intolerable Cruelty (some of her faves). Regardless, I thought it was great. Man, I can’t think of a bad movie they have put out. Top of the list for best movie writers/directors of all time in my book. They sure are consistent at making a great movie together…

By Steamboat

December 14, 2007 6:24 PM | Link to this

William, I think the use, possession or distribution of steroids absent a prescription was made a felony with the Anabolic Steroids Control Act of 1990. Not a lawyer… that’s just what I understand to be true.

I’m not that obsessed with punishing the Mitchell 86 (or whatever the number is); but to say users did nothing wrong is a whitewash, in my opinion. If in fact they bought, possessed or used steroids without a prescription, they committed felonies in furthering their careers.

The company I work for has no written rule against kidnapping the boss’s daughter and holding her hostage for a million bucks… but I’m assuming it would be frowned upon, it being a felony and all. No?

By chrisklob

December 14, 2007 6:28 PM | Link to this

ESPN is reporting that Dan Haren has just been traded to the ARizona Diamondbacks. Sorry Omar!

By Chopdawg

December 14, 2007 6:30 PM | Link to this

William, you hit the nail on the head. Use the Mitchell report to change the future, not to replay the past.

By BosnianBaller

December 14, 2007 6:46 PM | Link to this

I guess this makes Maddux the greatest pitcher of his era.With an era of 1.something in 95 which is amazing.

Looks like the d’backs are the team to beat in the NL.Webb and Haren is the best 1,2 punch in the league hate to see them in the playoffs.

By Braveheart

December 14, 2007 6:52 PM | Link to this

The company I work for has no written rule against kidnapping the boss’s daughter and holding her hostage for a million bucks… but I’m assuming it would be frowned upon, it being a felony and all. No?

LOL!

Steamboat That line of logic by the players always reminds me of that classic frowned upon line from George on Seinfield after he got busted having sex with the cleaning lady at work.

Mr. Lippman It’s come to my attention that you and the cleaning woman have engaged in sexual intercourse on the desk in your office. Is that correct?

George Costanza: Who said that?

Mr. Lippman: She did.

George Costanza: [pause] Was that wrong? Should I not have done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing, because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first started here that that sort of thing is frowned upon … you know, cause I’ve worked in a lot of offices, and I tell you, people do that all the time.

Mr. Lippman: You’re fired!

By BravesFanChris23

December 14, 2007 6:59 PM | Link to this

Holy Mother Of Pearl !

Diamondbacks Acquire Dan Haren & Ship Out Jose Valverde

From MLB.Com:

*PHOENIX — The D-backs completed a deal to acquire right-handers Dan Haren and Connor Robertson from the A’s in exchange for six prospects, it was announced Friday afternoon.

In addition, the D-backs sent closer Jose Valverde to the Astros in exchange for infielder Chris Burke and right-handers Chad Qualls and Juan Gutierrez.

Included in the trade to Oakland are pitchers Brett Anderson, Greg Smith and Dana Eveland along with outfielders Carlos Gonzalez and Aaron Cunningham and first baseman Chris Carter.*

Looks like Diamondbacks were busy. They didn’t waste any time.

By Daybed Wagmoe

December 14, 2007 7:00 PM | Link to this

DOB,

i’ll check out the cds you mentioned. i liked spoon’s “gimme fiction” album, though probably not as much as others have enjoyed it. i’ll definitely check out the dwight yokam sings buck owens stuff as well. i’ve been meaning to get the gram parsons thing as well.

“neon bible” is a close second to “era vulgaris,” and the two could probably switch back and forth between the #1 and 2 spots depending on the day. i listened to “neon bible” so much that i sort of overexposed myself to it when it first came out, and i had to just leave it alone for about 3 months and then come back to it. not quite the same with “era vulgaris” though, which i haven’t really overexposed myself to. i’m definitely a bigger arcade fire fan, though.

By TennesseePaul

December 14, 2007 7:01 PM | Link to this

ESPN is reporting that Dan Haren has just been traded to the ARizona Diamondbacks. Sorry Omar

Never has it pleased me so much to see a #1 starter enter the National League. But it just cracks me up that the Mets house of (old) cards is starting to fall down.

By Interested Observer

December 14, 2007 7:02 PM | Link to this

What happened to the minor league FA signings that were supposed to be announced this week?

By humbug

December 14, 2007 7:06 PM | Link to this

I want to offer this as an option.

Nothing can hurt baseball more than a long drawn out government investigation which will insure little bits of dirt being leaked out over the foreseeable future. Things like asterisks or footnotes cluttering up the record books is stupid. Let’s draw a line right here and now and get ready for next season, which ain’t far off. We have no proof that Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Henry Aaron, Ted Williams, etc were totally clean. Grant immunity for what has transpired and move on. This would include MLB apologizing to Pete Rose and putting him in the Baseball Hall of Fame where he deserves to be. PLAY BALL Y’ALL.

By TennesseePaul

December 14, 2007 7:07 PM | Link to this

Braveheart: Thanks for the Seinfeld recap. Ha! I love that show. Everyone of them had flawless delivery.

By brian

December 14, 2007 7:09 PM | Link to this

Wow - the Haren trade sure included more prospects than I would have though. I can easily see now why the Braves were not in the running for Haren. That would have been JoJo, Schaffer, and Lillebridge - way too much

Arizona has rock solid starters though I do not see the logic in trading Valverde.

Webb, Haren, Hernandez are rock solid but so are Smoltz, Hudson, and Glavine - they are older but still solid.

Key to the Braves starters is not only health but seeing a reliable #4 and #5 starter this year.

By dadgum

December 14, 2007 7:11 PM | Link to this

DOB….first I agree with your thoughts that you are not resonsible for reporting heresay drug use by any player. Better to let it bleed out then comment at least in this particular situation.

There were plenty of ex-Braves implicated. Doesn’t surprise me. Sheffield, Rocker are no-brainers. Bad dudes that deserve what they get. Glad they were fingered. I mean when Sheffield stays with Bonds for a couple of summers running for the purpose of training. Wow!!! What an idiot. Sheffield is a jerk!!!! End of story there. Rocker—-nuf said.

Before anyone says that they are innocent until proven guilty…I will agree. However, they are all now tainted for the remainder of their careers regardless. Clemens has a tough climb back to HOF status. Finally I will leave you with this. No report would have come out like this if there wasn’t 99% certainty of the facts. Face it people this is ugly and I will bet the ranch it is true.

By Roman Gal

December 14, 2007 7:11 PM | Link to this

Bruce, I’m glad you like it.

By McFann

December 14, 2007 7:13 PM | Link to this

Did anybody ever answer my question about the Lambo? If they did, I never saw It…

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 14, 2007 7:20 PM | Link to this

Hey, been telling you guys, the DBacks were deep with prospects.

By BravesFanChris23

December 14, 2007 7:29 PM | Link to this

Brian,

The logic behind trading Valverde is to free up some money so D-Backs can keep Haren. D-Backs have some good potential talent to take over the closers role. I’ve heard Qualls has some potential as a closer and another could be Brandon Lyon. That or they can pony up some dough (or prospects/talent) to get Joe Nathan or someone else that is an established closer.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 14, 2007 7:32 PM | Link to this

Haren traded to the D’Backs, looks like a good year to be playing the AL West in interleague play.

I’m just happy he did not go to the Mets….

By William

December 14, 2007 7:32 PM | Link to this

Steamboat, Right you are sir, I stand corrected. But, the 1990 act criminalized some steroids and a first time possessor without a prescription like most of the named ballplayers were only subject to misdemeanor punishment - fine of $1000 or up to 1 year in jail (same as simple possession of marijuana). The penalties didn’t get tougher until a subsequent offense or selling the stuff. The 2004 act was directed specifically at professional athletes, gave it more teeth and expanded the list of banned substances. Moreover, Androstenedione (Andro), the MLB drug of choice apparently (at least by Mark McGwire), was not included in the 1990 act and didn’t become illegal until the 2004 act. I don’t know about HGH and don’t really care. But you’re still right and thank you for prodding me to look into the subject more thoroughly.

The only point I was trying to make before was that I just don’t see all this as a big deal that really rises to the level of a scandal. Nobody seemed to give a damn back in the 70’s and 80’s when ballplayers were abusing amphetamines (“greenies”), smoking weed, and snorting cocaine. Remember the story about Ferguson Jenkins pitching a game while he was tripping on LSD? He made the HOF in 1991. Dock Ellis supposedly pitched a no hitter while on LSD and while he’s not in the HOF, he was never vilified in the press the ways these guys like Roger Clemens are now. I just want to move on to something more important. Sorry.

By BravesFanChris23

December 14, 2007 7:38 PM | Link to this

I personally like the Haren and Valverede trades for all three teams.

Beane’s motto is from what I hear bring on the prospects and build them up and mold them, once they get a bit steep in price, trade em for more prospects. It seemingly works for Beane. With this trade Beane gets some top flight talent prospects that can be molded.

Meanwhile, D-Backs get their starter to go behind Webb. I like that 1-2 Punch. That and like someone said some really good talent comes to NL. Maybe Haren can start for the NL during the 2008 All Star game -_-

On the Valverde. Astros needed a closer and D-Backs needed to free up some money. Win-Win.

By chrisklob

December 14, 2007 7:40 PM | Link to this

This is a dark day for all true fans of this great sport. I’m sure most of us would agree that the Mitchell Report only scratched the surface of a problem that goes through every organization in both leagues. One thing is clear. The use of illegal PED’s has been running wild and free for many, many years. The question now is this: What can or should baseball do to get past this time and restore the integrity of the sport?

In my opinion, Bud Selig and Don Fehr should both step down from their positions. They both allowed this to happen on their watch. Without doubt, both had much to gain from an increase in popularity. I read that baseball grossed $6 billion dollars this year. It was their greed, along with the greed of the owners and the players that precipitated this terrible situation.

I certainly understand the perspective of each side. The strike in 1994-5 was devastating to the game. I know of quite a few people, life-long baseball fans, that still won’t watch or attend games because of that strike. Selig needed something to resuscitate the game and the home run chase of 1998 was just the thing to pique the interest of the general public again. He needed McGwire and Sosa to revive the game and quite possibly save his job. It didn’t matter how it happened, it just had to happen.

The other side of this issue is Fehr and the union. They knew that the more successful the game became, the more the players would be able to get from the owners. Greed, pure and simple.

The people that should really be mad about the use of steroids are the guys that stayed clean but couldn’t keep a job in the majors because they were competing against the users. And don’t forget about the guys that never made the majors for the same reason. Their fortunes were stolen by the unscrupulous.

Selig and Fehr need to go. Their actions have been a disgrace to the sport that used to be “America’s Game.” The union and baseball need to adopt the strictest standards possible with the strictest punishments possible. Blood testing MUST be allowed. It’s the only way to detect HGH. Urine and blood samples MUST be saved for future testing. New PED’s are constantly being developed and users can’t be found out until the new drugs are found out and a test developed. Storing samples for future testing will help to ensure that athletes will not be tempted to use the “latest thing” if the possibility of being outed later exists.

Baseball and the union need to act quickly. Otherwise, Congress may step in and act for them. That baseball can’t police itself would be yet another stain on the glorious sport. And, I suspect that nobody will like what Congress orders them to do.

By DonCoburleone

December 14, 2007 7:45 PM | Link to this

Wow, Haren and Webb at the top of the rotation for at least the next 2 seasons… We now have the definate favorite in the National League. No matter who plays them in the playoffs, that team will have to beat them TWICE! Very, very scary team next year and 2009…

By TennesseePaul

December 14, 2007 7:50 PM | Link to this

DonC: I’d image those options will be picked up. Haren and Webb are together for the next three seasons. They have a really strong club. And it’s young. It’s all under control for at least the next 3 seasons. And it should only get better.

By ncscoots

December 14, 2007 7:58 PM | Link to this

I can easily see now why the Braves were not in the running for Haren. That would have been JoJo, Schaffer, and Lillebridge - way too much

Hardly. Only Carlos Gonzalez is in the class of prospect of the three you named. Neither Smith nor Anderson are the top-rated pitching prospect in the D-Backs organization (how do you NOT get the top prospect for Haren??). The other three are toolsy, but projects nonetheless, so they’re just filler.

This is not a package that couldn’t be matched by other teams, including the Braves. An offer of Lillibridge and Rohrbough, plus quantity, would have overwhelmed this package.

BTW, Arizona has now traded both Carlos Quentin and Carlos Gonzalez, projected a year or so ago to be the “future” of the organization. Can’t miss guys. Something to remember before screaming about the trade of a Braves’ prospect in the future.

By AdirondackDave

December 14, 2007 8:04 PM | Link to this

Chrisklob — You nailed it. Selig and Fehr need to step down. Whoever leads the cleanup of this mess, it could be argued they are more part of the problem than the solution and are not qualified to participate. In fact, I would think the cleanup starts with those two offices.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)

December 14, 2007 8:04 PM | Link to this

Excellent post/article , David. I just wanted to repost this for the people that still think Roger Clemens is any less culpable than Bonds.

Quote from the Mitchell report :

“According to McNamee, from the time that McNamee injected Clemens with Winstrol through the end of the 1998 season, Clemens’ performance showed remarkable improvement,” the report said. “During this period of improved performance, Clemens told McNamee that the steroids ’had a pretty good effect’ on him.”

From April 1st to June 24th of the 1998 season , Clemens went 8-6 with an ERA of 3.77 giving up 42 earned runs in 102.2 innings of work.

Then from June 30th to Sept. 26th of the 1998 season , Clemens went 12-0 with an ERA of 1.76 giving up 26 earned runs in 132.2 innings of work.

Clemens allegedly stopped using in 1999 and went 14-10 4.60 ERA.

McNamee also told investigators that “during the middle of the 2000 season, Clemens made it clear that he was ready to use steroids again.

Clemens had a record of 4-6 with an ERA of 4.76 during the first half of the 2000 season.

The second half , Clemens went 9-2 with an ERA of 3.00

Coincidence ? I think not. Pretty damning stuff if you ask me.

By Steamboat

December 14, 2007 8:09 PM | Link to this

William, well, you make a lot of good points. I really only meant to offer correction on the law as I understood it … but I agree: this is not a “crisis”, but rather just a problem that needs to be addressed before it festers.

I really think that ALL records set during the steroid issue will end up with an asterisk… “Note: records set during the period of 1990 - 2007 are considered by many to be suspect due to wide use of performance-enhancing drugs during that period.” Something like that, avoiding pointing the finger at any specific player, but making a note acknowledging the issue.

Not saying this is a good approach, but it’s a logical “CYA” approach for the league and the union to agree to.

chrisklob - a great post! I agree that Fehr and Selig should both resign. Both can “defend” their roles and positions in all this, but both have obviously failed in a big way. New leadership is definitely in order. That would be a great starting point. (‘course, it’ll never happen, but that’s another issue…)

By A-ville Ranger

December 14, 2007 8:13 PM | Link to this

I don’t want to start no rumors or nothin but I’ve noticed DOBs blogs have gotten longer lately.Think about it,a guy in his 40s,all of a sudden the words just pour out….very Bonds like.

By BayAreaSteve

December 14, 2007 8:23 PM | Link to this

Lew,

Thank you for your response, and I agree with what you say. I have no desire to see anybody punished, just want to see them correct it. Or at least try, because as Shaun and others point out, they will never totally eradicate PEDs.

As far as the dinosaurs, I don’t think I could handle Vermont. It was fifty degrees today, and I whine about it like a nine year old.

By David O'Brien

December 14, 2007 8:25 PM | Link to this

MikeS, your wife went to this one expecting a Big Lebowski or Intolerable Cruelty, then she must’ve thought you’d entered the wrong theatre. No Country for Old Men is an entirely different direction for the Coen Brothers, though you’re right, Blood Simple’s as close as they’ve come to this type of serious, bloody stuff (there’s also Miller’s Crossing, to a lesser degree).

Then again, any review of either this movie or the book it was based on would’ve been fair warning that this was a very serious, very dark, very grim movie. And absolutely tremendous. What a cast, huh?

I can’t wait to see “There Will Be Blood,” which isn’t out in Atlanta and most places until January. Getting early mention for its acting and as best-picture favorite along with No Country and a couple others.

One of our bloggers, I think, saw There Will Be Blood a month or so ago at a film festival or something like that. Maybe he’ll see this and confirm, but I think he said it might be the best movie he’d ever seen.

By gobraves

December 14, 2007 8:34 PM | Link to this

DOB what is this I hear about a Braves TV Network?

By David O'Brien

December 14, 2007 8:38 PM | Link to this

Yes, that ‘Zona rotation is looking pretty formidable, for sure. Imagine if Big Unit’s got anything left this season….

William, uh, I don’t think anyone who has any knowledge of LSD would ever, under any circumstance, consider it anything even remotely beneficial to athletic performance. Quite the contrary. If anything Doc Ellis should be in the Hall FOR being able to pitch a no-no on LSD.

I’m kidding, but still, it’s absolutely incredible if he did that, and by all accounts, it sounds as if he did. I’ve never heard anyone, including him, dispute that story. By the way, it was at San Diego, in the same ballpark where I watched A.J. Burnett throw a nine-walk, one-hit-batter no-hitter for Florida while covering the Marlins….

A-Ville Ranger, that was funny….

Hey, who was it on this blog that said I was crazy after the season for suggesting that Oakland would trade Haren and/or Blanton this winter or next? I know someone was absolutely certain that wasn’t gonna happen, and kept saying as much. Can’t remember who, though. ‘Fess up….

Interested observer, probably just waiting on one more guy they’re signing or waiting for paperwork to go through on one guy, so they can release all the names at once. Not a big deal.

By the way, the amount of cash the Braves got for Langerhans was less than $100,000, from what I’m told.

By Lew

December 14, 2007 8:49 PM | Link to this

DOB-I think Ellis DID walk like eight batters in that game. However, your point is well taken. Try shooting pool sometime. Oh, the days of wayward youth. Guess I’ll never be in the HOF. Oh wait. I’m an artist, we’re supposed to do strange things.

By ncscoots

December 14, 2007 8:53 PM | Link to this

Hey, who was it on this blog that said I was crazy after the season for suggesting that Oakland would trade Haren and/or Blanton this winter or next?

Well, it sure as hell wasn’t me. Must have been Frank Wren.

After all, the Braves have a couple of 40+ arms, a guy who hasn’t pitched in two years, a journeyman or two, and some youngsters. They don’t need any more pitching.

By Lew

December 14, 2007 8:57 PM | Link to this

Bay AreaSteve-Yesterday when I left at 7:30 for a Doctor appointment, it was 8 degrees. Last year when I saw Johnny Winter in Burlington, it was 12 below and leaving the show and waiting for the car to warm, breathing was hard. The worst I’ve seen though, was about four years ago when I flew to Orlando for Spring Training-it was 38 below actual temperature the morning I left. Now THAT is serious cold. I heartily recommend the Chevy Malibu. Never once has it not started and I only keep it in a carport.

By A.J.

December 14, 2007 8:57 PM | Link to this

Wow ncscoots,

I initially when I read your post assumed you were just a hometown bias guy overvaluing Braves prospects and undervaluing other teams prospects.

And I have had some suspicions about how some of our more advanced level prospects having relatively low ceilings, though after reading BA’s Braves top 10, I think we have certainly rebuilt a ton since the Tex trade and the Baby Braves (though many many aren’t past A ball).

And reading MLBTradeRumors.com with his commentary on the guys the D-Backs gave up, we totally could have matched that. I mean, we would have had to give up a Schafer or a Gorkys, but beyond that it doesn’t sound like there were any real legit prospects beyond A ball. And even they didn’t sound that great.

I’m not saying we should have, (though Haren would be a lot of fun, I think Schafer, Heyward and Gorkys will be too), but it is nice to know that after the Tex trade, we could still go out and get a top tier guy.

And it is really nice to think someone could come from our farm system could come out and be great because for a while I doubted we had any of that.

By AdirondackDave

December 14, 2007 9:08 PM | Link to this

I just don’t get it. The Braves aren’t looking for a quality young starter? I believe Dave has said this rotation is in the top 5 in the NL and that may be, emphasis on the may. But I’d like to see them in the top 1 in the NL with a Haren, Bedard type. Dominant rotations win league pennants and maybe some world series. Nobody is saying that about the Braves right now. I just don’t get that another quality young starter is not a priortiy.

By bfan54

December 14, 2007 9:17 PM | Link to this

I disagree with Lew, whom I respect greatly - make no mistake about it. The presumption of innocence is a concept to “equal the playing field in a criminal prosecution”. It has no place in any other context. The Court of Public Opinion does not require “proof beyond a reasonable doubt”. The presumption of innocence is inapplicable to - say - the curator of a baseball museum, or the baseball folks who certify records. Those folks can decide one’s silence is an admission, that the greater weight of evidence supports the conclusion of “juicing”. While I am pontificating on the “rule of law”, I will also mention that EVERY state in the union recognizes that circumstatial evidence is both admissable and probative.

I suspect Lew’s comments speak to sub-text, that is to say, there is something other than the amount of evidence that troubles him.

What is American is not only our free expression of ideas, both Lew’s, mine, and everyone else’s, but the tolerance of those ideas. God knows I tolerate changes in our society today that years ago I thought undeserving of print space, or rational consideration.

BTW while I don’t support an asterick on individual records, I do think a reasonable compromise would be for baseball to officially recognize that the steroid era and the statistical aberrations that certain substances were known to produce, it would caution against assumptions and encourage the fans to take this fact into account when making judgments about the validity of records during the ERA (call it a ‘warning label’, if you’d like.

Any true student of the game knows that certain era’s have such inflated numbers (e.g. from 1876 until -you look it up- maybe the late 1880’s - players had something like 4 strikes and 9 balls for a time at ball. Balls caught on the first bounce were outs, etc. This explains why pre-1900 records are not often cited. Same could be the case with “steroid era” stats. This compromise avoids demonizing players only those players unlucky enough to be “outed”.

Am I reasonable or what, denizens of the blog? You decide!

Yo!

By TennesseePaul

December 14, 2007 9:21 PM | Link to this

AdirondackDave: We traded for Jair, who’s numbers are very similar to Davies when he was first coming up. Why would we need to trade for Haren, a #1 pitcher under contract for 3 more years at about 5 million a season?

By very good md

December 14, 2007 9:24 PM | Link to this

dave —never wrote you before but read you everyday … I was on a plane from ATL to WPAlm about a month ago — guys next to me turn out to be Winter sport Olympic types — heading to WPALM from Utah … long and short we spoke about roids and they not even knowing me admitted just what you mentioned earlier — the new stuff is alread out there, already undedectable … when I asked if they were heading to WPalm for some sun they said no had some business opps they had to take care of … I stared, they realized what they were saying and WAM! EOC — end of conversation … blew me away! Whatever it is, the next “DR. NICK” (elvis’s personal MD for all you young guys!) is already in business — somewhere around WPALM and at a convenient location near us all …

By TennesseePaul

December 14, 2007 9:28 PM | Link to this

Did anyone else see this?

Looks like that list from the other day made it to the presses and then pi$$ed off Pujols.

By AdirondackDave

December 14, 2007 9:35 PM | Link to this

TennPaul — If Jurrjens can win 15-18 games this year, we’ll win that NL title and have a shot at it all. However, as good as he may be, I don’t think that is realistic for ‘08 which I see as a real window of opportunity, mainly because of Tex and the aging starters. I hope we don’t take this opportunity, which may be brief, for granted and sit on our hands. That’s the way it looks to me anyway.

By chrisklob

December 14, 2007 9:40 PM | Link to this

10Paul, interesting link. Pujols has every right to be mad as hell. If he’s truly clean, and always has been, he should sue the pants off of the people that said he was on the list.

I’ll be very curious to see how many, if any at all, law suits are filed against Mitchell or his contacts claiming libel and/or slander. I found it interesting that, after Canseco’s book came out, NO ONE sued him, at least no one that I heard of.

I would think that if a slew of law suits don’t erupt, then perhaps many, most, or perhaps all of the players mentioned in the report are, in fact, guilty.

By AdirondackDave

December 14, 2007 9:41 PM | Link to this

TennPaul — Pardon my density… It finally sunk in that you were actually seconding my comment.

By TennesseePaul

December 14, 2007 9:48 PM | Link to this

I don’t think Jair will be in the rotation unless Hampton is out. I can’t image the Braves sending Chuck down after posting two good years in a row; more than Davies or HoRam ever gave the team.

By Yars

December 14, 2007 9:55 PM | Link to this

Top 10 Albums of 2007:

  1. Duran Duran - Red Carpet Massacre (a solid album with some really catchy dance tracks)

  2. Client - Heartland (those of you who enjoy underground british dance music will appreciate this album)

  3. Linkin Park - Minutes to Midnight (a more mature album that has a edgy sound with less rap-rock & more rock)

  4. Dave Gahan - Hourglass (very NIN sounding. If you like NIN, you will enjoy this)

  5. She Wants Revenge - This Is Forever (early Cure meets early Depeche Mode meets early Morrissey)

  6. VNV Nation - Judgement (if you are heavily into electronic music, give this under-rated gem a listen)

  7. Shiny Toy Guns - We Are Pilots (this band is going to be huge in a couple years.)

  8. Chemical Brothers - We Are The Night (not your typical dance album. way more experimental)

  9. Recoil - SubHuman (blues meets dance.)

  10. Nine Inch Nails - Year Zero (if it weren’t for bands such as Depeche Mode, Skinny Puppy, & Ministry, there would be no NIN. the best NIN album since Pretty Hate Machine)

By TennesseePaul

December 14, 2007 9:56 PM | Link to this

AdirondackDave: No worries. I’ve been thinking the same thing for some time… I didn’t think it would take too much high level proven talent to get Haren from Bean. Bean is so infatuated with college stats you can take him every time.
Charles Thomas, Dan Meyers and Juan Cruz for Hudson. Ha! I miss the good ol’ days.

By BravesFanChris23

December 14, 2007 9:57 PM | Link to this

TennessePaul

You might have a point there, but if Jair proves Leyland right (when Leyland said that he would definitely be in starting rotation next year if he wasn’t traded), I wouldn’t exactly rule it out. I would see it going….

Smoltz/Hudson/Glavine/Hampton (if healthy)/Jurrjens

If Hampton is out, replace him with James. If Jurrjens can bring his stuff to spring and be as good as Leyland said, then I doubt he’ll be out of the starting picture.

By Steamboat

December 14, 2007 10:02 PM | Link to this

George Mitchell is… what… a lawyer (Georgetown Law School); a former U.S. Senator (and Majority Leader); and a nominee to the U.S. Supreme Court (though he declined consdideration).

Most guys with those credentials (if there are any others) are pretty hip to the law. I think it’s really unlikely that he stumbled into a bunch of libel/slander suits with this report.

By MikeS

December 14, 2007 10:14 PM | Link to this

DOB, I do remember the blogger mentioning seeing “There Will Be Blood” at a film festival about a month ago. I’ve been anxiously awaiting seeing it ever since. We saw the preview for it before No Country. Looks like a classic in the making. I’d be willing to bet Daniel Day Lewis is phenomenal in it.

Him losing the 2003 Best Actor Academy Award (for Gangs of New York) to Adrian Brody (The Pianist) was probably the biggest travesty in Oscar history. His performance in that movie was one of the most powerful I’ve ever seen. Simply amazing.

By chrisklob

December 14, 2007 10:17 PM | Link to this

Steamboat, I haven’t read the entire report. But I have heard a bit of “player A said that player B used steroids”. Perhaps they have information to back those claims up. Or perhaps Mitchell would not be liable for a slander/libel claim as he is simply reporting what has been told to him. I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t know.

Braveheart blogged yesterday afternoon (and I’ve heard similar complaints on the radio today) that what happened to David Justice was, well, an injustice. If those claims can’t be proven, wouldn’t Justice have the right to sue?

By Theophilus

December 14, 2007 10:18 PM | Link to this

The response to this travesty will exceed the anger engendered by the strike. I am appalled that the player’s union is opposed to blood testing and forces the league to depend on urine testing.

We have only heard from two whistle blowers. I expect that the use of steroids was pervasive throughout the league. Does this also apply to amphetamines?

You know what they call a league without drugs? Parity.

By MikeS

December 14, 2007 10:20 PM | Link to this

Interesting that at the same time they’re trading for a veteran like Haren, the D’Backs also traded away their veteran closer “Papa Grande”. I guess they have confidence that Tony Pena will be ready to take over. That kid does have electric stuff and looked unhittable down the stretch for them last year.

By TN Scotty

December 14, 2007 10:44 PM | Link to this

DOB You eloquently stated that everyone bears some responsibility for looking the other way including the media, but this is nothing new. When Babe Ruth was in his hey day, the media overlooked many of the excesses in his life probably because, just like today, we as a society, glamorize athletes to the point of godlike status; however, baseball truly lost its objectivity as a result of the ‘94 strike. In the quest to regain the fan base lost due to the perception by the fans of greed by both players and owners, and rightly so, everyone looked the other way. Further complicating an already tenuous situation, was the midnight ride of Bud Selig to power. Whenever you have an owner of a sports franchise as a commissioner of that league, all objectivity goes out the window. That would be like putting the CEO of Enron as Head of the Securities and Exchange Commission. Selig’s most noteworthy contribution, if you can call it that, has been revenue sharing. If you’ve got a vested interest in the revenue pie which you’re going to eat, how likely are you to throw salt in it? The higher the revenue the more that is shared and there is the problem: no accountability. The really interesting part of this is the discussion about whether we’ll have two sections in the Hall of Fame; one for the Steroid Era and one for the Nonsteroid Era. One of the interesting by-products of this whole mess maybe the vindication of Pete Rose. He may have bet on baseball and be banned from the game and the Hall of Fame, but really how many of his hits came with the help of a needle? His record might now be the one in the modern era that stands the test of time. Here’s another sad aspect of this problem. I was talking to someone who coached a player in high school who later played in the minor leagues. I know this player as well. He stated that the minor leagues are much more strict than the major leagues. He was behind another prospect that was about to be called up and was. This player is well-known in baseball and one of the best at his position. This friend told us he would be next up if a certain player who was having difficulty in recovering from surgery didn’t recover by a certain time. This player did recover, and not too long after that, our friend, who had a family to support, decided to leave the game he loved. How interesting was the reading when we found out that the player who recovered from surgery was one of the ones listed in the report? Could this player have recovered without using those substances? Who knows. But you have to really wonder how many careers were extended by those who skirted the rules at the expense of those who chose to do things the right way. Unfortunately, we’ll never know. Then again, if not for a headache where would Lou Gehrig be?

By kreedham

December 14, 2007 10:47 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Check out Dirt Farmer by Levon Helm. Great CD.

By BravesFanChris23

December 14, 2007 10:48 PM | Link to this

DOB or Anyone Who Has Seen It

What is No Country For Old Men about? I’ve heard good things, my interest is definitely peaked.

By Steamboat

December 14, 2007 10:56 PM | Link to this

chrisklob, to prove libel/slander, you have to PROVE that statements made were untrue, that the statements caused real harm, and that the person who made the statements should reasonably have known that the statements were untrue. It’s just a very difficult case to win, usually.

Besides all that, Mitchell was hired by MLB to conduct the investigation. If anyone is at risk, it’s MLB, not Mitchell. MLB owns the report, I would think.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see the players union file a suit… though it will be without merit … they’ll use it as a bargaining/PR tool.

By Steve McP

December 14, 2007 11:04 PM | Link to this

DOB - looks like the No Country for Old Men question is another for the FAQ section if you can get it under way

By Lew

December 14, 2007 11:09 PM | Link to this

BFan54-No, with all due respect, that’s where you’re wrong. The concept of presumed innocent is not a concept to even out just a criminal playing field, but a concept to even the playing field of life. Failure to presume innocence was responsible for the Salem Witch Burnings, The McCarthy hearings and the internment of certain Nationalities during WW2. When we lose sight of this sacred concept-one of the building blocks and maybe the cornerstone of our quite unique society, anarchy and intolerance is sure to result. Sorry if this seems like a political diatribe, but I see it as a question much more basic to life than to government or any particular political affiliation-that’s all.

Ten Paul-I was making a point that there could be numerous interpretations to Schmidt’s reaction to me. I made no judgments. Actually, I think he made a couple of errors that night and was likely p!$$ed at himself and not in a talkative mood. I was not judging him and I certainly wouldn’t-and didn’t- accuse him. You’re making my point for me.

By uga-brave

December 14, 2007 11:18 PM | Link to this

dan haren goes to arizonia, the pads and d’backs have the best starting rotations in baseball.

there was a time when the braves strived for excellence. they were the class of the N.L. now we are with the rest of the suck. (runners term for the back of the pack DOB IF YOU ran you know the term.)

no way in heck does JS go upstairs if he thinks LMT is committed to spending the money to win. JS has got a massive ego, (just read his book) wren is there because JS sees the writing on the wall.

By Jared

December 14, 2007 11:21 PM | Link to this

Poor Mets. No Alex Rodriguez, no Dan Haren and most likely no Johan Santana or Erik Bedard (future Red most likely). Heh.

John Maine and Oliver Perez as #1 and #2? Yeah, that’s scary.

By chrisklob

December 14, 2007 11:33 PM | Link to this

Steamboat, after doing a little research I believe that you may be right. The burden of proof does lie with the plaintiff. Much of what has been published is hearsay and I believe that it would be difficult to prove. Nonetheless, if any players that were named in yesterdays report are completely innocent then I could see a scenario where someone might choose to sue. They may know that it may be virtually impossible to prove their case, but they may file suit as a matter of principle.

I’ve tried putting myself in the position of a falsely accused player and imagine how I may act. You know, it’s one thing to get in front of the media and proclaim your innocence (as Justice did) or to have an attorney prepare a well-written statement (as Pujols did). That’s just talk, and they say that talk is cheap. But it’s another if you have the stones to file suit against your accuser. The accused would have to expect a very thorough check of their background, financial records, medical records, etc., etc. I expect only the truly innocent would have the courage to expose themselves to that much review.

If you were not guilty of what was published in that report wouldn’t you want to clear your name? For some players the answer to that question may well dictate future salaries, endorsements and even entrance into the Hall of Fame.

As I said in an earlier post, Canseco named many names in his book. No one sued him. I find that very interesting.

By Zac

December 14, 2007 11:36 PM | Link to this

Dave, what were your thoughts on Gary Sheffield when he was with the Braves? I grew up following him and really found his demeanor amusing and respected it as well. I also remember him hitting bombs, with one hand on the bat in some cases. Was he someone you had definite suspicions about before the Bonds allegations were brought to light? Heard the new Wu Tang cd yet? It’s not bad…

By jon712

December 14, 2007 11:38 PM | Link to this

MLB isn’t exactly wrestling but it is entertainment. After the strike of ‘94, the players union and the owners both profited from the renewed interest fanned by the home run races. The see no evil approach was and is simple self interest. This whole situation is reminiscent of “Thank You for Smoking” (a great movie about spin and sophistry). Is there really a moral distinction to be made between current players seeking a chemical edge and Bobby Thompson stealing the sign on his shot heard ‘round the world or Whitey Ford sharpening his wedding ring or Gaylord Perry loading up a few or Joe Niekro filing more than his nails? The one certainty is the involvement of Congress. It’s a lot easier for Senators and Congressmen to grandstand about keeping baseball pure than it is for them to explain how a “Curve Ball” justified the war or why the priorities of their campaign contributors somehow supercede those of their constituents. It’s a no lose situation for the government, kind of like coming out in favor of motherhood and apple pie. Baseball will adapt and survive because of us, the fanatics. And, should baseball pick up some marketing tips from wrestling, it won’t be the end of the world. Seeing a player charge the mound with a folding metal chair in his raised arms might even be a little fun.

By David O'Brien

December 14, 2007 11:56 PM | Link to this

Jon712, agree with most everything you said, although I do believe injecting yourself with ‘roids is on a bit of a different level than stealing a sign or even doctoring the ball a bit. But I can understand those who’d see it differently than me, too. Just different opinions on the subject.

I concur on “Thank You for Smoking.” Terrific movie.

Speaking of great stuff, if you folks have OnDemand cable and still haven’t seen the documentary “Rebels of Oakland,” I’d strongly advise watching it while it’s still available. This is the second time it’s been on there, and I’ve watched it a few times. Just pitch-perfect sports documentary, about the Raiders and A’s of the ’70s and how those blue-collar, rough-cut championship teams so embodied the chip-on-the-shoulder, underdog mentality of the city of Oakland. An hour of sheer viewing pleasure.

By David O'Brien

December 14, 2007 11:59 PM | Link to this

Kreedham, I’ve got that Levon Helm CD, recommended here last week. It’s excellent.

BravesFanChris23: Do a Google on No Country for Old Men, probably find more thorough explanation than you’re going to get here from those of us who’ve discussed it again and again.

By ssiscribe

December 15, 2007 12:00 AM | Link to this

Top of the evening, denizens. Done with playing freelance scribe, off deadline and in the clear …

Wait, or is it the creme? Somebody get Sheffield on the phone.

Anyway, watching SportsCenter while I finished my freelance piece and I heard David Justice’s comments on ESPN Radio this morning. Here’s my question to the other players who are mentioned in the Mitchell Report:

If you are denying what’s in the report, why aren’t you doing what Justice did today?

Justice made a very passionate, very sensible argument. What I can’t help but wonder is why aren’t the other players mentioned screaming from the rooftops and bombarding every media outlet available to them, pleading their case to the public.

Justice admitted he had the one conversation about PED, but when he saw it sitting in his locker with needles, he said he couldn’t do it because he can’t handle needles. He went on to bring up the fact he had a lousy 2001 season.

Anyway, just thought it was interesting that Justice is the only one who’s yelled his innocence so far.

Harden to the D’Backs? Just saw that one … damn, that’s a really good rotation now. Best in the NL, hands down. Wow.

And with that, sleep calls.

The Scribe abides.

—30—

By uga-brave

December 15, 2007 12:05 AM | Link to this

afraid to trade lillibridge or jones to get HAREN? dont want the extra salary from HAREN? what a joke. now when we enter TURNER FIELD IN THE CENTER FIELD PLAZA, turn left and go into tooner field.

this is not about putting a CHAMPION ON THE FIELD, it is about breaking even on cash FLOW. the franchise will appreciate, just hang around and wizz in our ears for a couple of years and liberty media will get theirs.

BRAVEHEART, there was a time when you were with me on ownership. ( dude we should drink a beer some time.) this team does not have THE PILOT THAT SAYS GO FOR IT. instead we are saddled with JOHN MALONE. for those that dont know he is the TED TURNER of liberty media.

get this through all of you KOOL-AID drinkers heads. liberty media is not going to spend MONEY. john malone has a history of doing this (BARRONS) very famous tax hater.

oh, by the way where is that new 6 million influx going to be spent.

DOB, any comments from smoltz and the hurlers about losing 15 feet behind homeplate.

probably 1 1/2 outs a game.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 12:08 AM | Link to this

MikeS, I thought the same thing after seeing Gangs of New York — that you can’t act much better than Daniel Day Lewis in that movie. He deserved the Oscar that year, even though Brody was also very, very good….

Yars, uh, No. 1 Duran Duran? Really? Hey, that’s cool. At least you’re a man who likes what he likes and ain’t afraid to say it.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 12:17 AM | Link to this

Zac, I always got along well with Sheff, and enjoyed talking to him. Then he’d say something about his contract status (he seemed to always stire things up when he got anxious with a year or so left on his contract and no extension being offered quickly enough to suit him), and you’d just go to yourself, “Why? Why did he feel compelled to say that, and does he not realize how that’s going to be perceived?”

It was like he was not engaged with the real world at those times. But again, I’ll say he was always cooperative and provided thoughtful comments instead of cliches. He’s a smart guy when it comes to baseball, no question about it. Has opinions and doesn’t mind sharing them. That’s good. And he had a pleasant personality, he really did. He was no Kevin Brown … or Bob Wickman. He was a pleasant, funny dude to be around.

As for suspicions, he came back from winter ripped a few years, more than others. But you know, he had that compact, muscular body, so until I heard he was going out to train with Bonds, I never really had any suspicions about Sheff and steroids. Once he went out there, well, you naturally start wondering. Because by then everyone knew Bonds was on the stuff, since he’d put on about 30 pounds of solid muscle in a couple of years in his late 30s.

By bocabrave

December 15, 2007 12:19 AM | Link to this

Yars, I’m an older guy (59), and other than Duran Duran, I have not heard a single group of your ten-suddenly, Im feeling very out of it. Can we split the difference? maybe the 80’s-I won’t bore you with the 60’s/70’s stuff. I checked with my 23 year old daughter, and she says your list is pretty good. Arizona may be very tough-thank goodness we don’t see much of them. It looks like our division is getting dramatically weaker-the marlins will suck, as will washington; the mets are weaker unless they make a big move; the phillies don’t scare me right now…then the question is whether we’re built for the playoffs-who knows. OR I may be drinking the kool aid, but I prefer to think we’re better off now than we were a year ago-Tex vs. Andruw? no brainer; glavine for another year? no brainer…

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 12:28 AM | Link to this

UGA-Brave, you need to go back and read some older blogs last week. Or does the breakdown I gave of how they’ve already added $8 mill in salary just not compute with you? Because if it doesn’t, no sense giving it to you again, because you obviously just dismiss it or have a mental block in that regard. Believe what you want, my friend. You’re entitled to form your own opinions (and your own way of computing payroll, too, obviously).

Oh, and trade Lillibridge OR B Jones for Haren? Dude, did you not read what Arizona gave up to get him? It would’ve taken Lillibridge AND B Jones and about three other players/prospects.

But you’re revved up on a Friday night, so I ain’t about to try to reason with you. Not much fun trying to do that. I’ll leave it to more patient men than me to do that, or those interested in sparring with you. I’m not — at all.

Later.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 12:31 AM | Link to this

Oh, one other thing for the rest of you who aren’t spitting-nails angry on this Friday night: Keep in mind Brian Fuentes of the Rockies. That Braves interest isn’t over yet. But I hear they just don’t want to take on his entire salary.

By uga-brave

December 15, 2007 12:34 AM | Link to this

DOB,

straight up you liked GANGS OF NEW YORK? terrible wrap up.

for me in order.

godfather rocky goodwill hunting jaws the graduate goofellas the natural BAD NEWS BEARS god father 2 that was the best.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 12:35 AM | Link to this

Also saw that Arizona has all but given up trying to re-sign 1B and pinch-hit machine Tony Clark. Be worth having him just so the Braves don’t have to face Clark, who’s absolutely destroyed them in his limited matchups against them through the years.

By chrisklob

December 15, 2007 12:36 AM | Link to this

uga, face it bro. The Atlanta Braves are a business. They are in business to make a profit for the mother ship, Liberty Media. The owners have an obligation to their stockholders to do so. I would expect that you would know that as you seem to have some sort of financial background.

By the way, it looks that they are going to spend an extra $10m this year, not $6m. DOB has reported this multiple times recently.

By the way, comparing Malone to Turner is a bad comparison. Turner was not afraid to do whatever was necessary to get the piece he wanted.

Also, just remember that losing 15 ft behind home plate works for both teams. Not just against the Braves.

By bocabrave

December 15, 2007 12:41 AM | Link to this

DOB…sorry for one more story from the “old fa*ts”, but re: Levon Helm. My father-in-law (the coolest guy in the world) was a vet in Woodstock, NY, and treated the animals of some of the leading rockers. Anyway, he later moved to the Bay Area and worked with some pretty cool people here as well. So, over way too much home grown wine (he now lives on a ranch in sonoma county), he revealed that he was invited by THE BAND (yeah, them) to The Last Waltz concert. He gave the tickets away because he was working in a free clinic (for animals, of course) that night. I have now given him the re-mixed “Last Waltz” concert, but I’m afraid he’s never gonna figure it out. That said, he has some fascinating stories about people who brought their animals to him (e.g. dylan, helm, young). Glad to see that Helm is back in action…

By uga-brave

December 15, 2007 12:55 AM | Link to this

DOB,

lace up those CHUCK TAYLORS, you are either a bitter man. WHICH I DONT THINK YOU ARE. oh by the way the NEXT TIME you go to FAT MATT’S ask for WES james, MATT’ BROTHER IN LAW.

WELL dave that 8 miilion dollar tip does not keep up with inflation.

you know it. i guarantee you had a pair of canvas CHUCKS i had a pair of converse classics.

By choppimama

December 15, 2007 12:57 AM | Link to this

Sec 412: although I need to sit a little closer to the field, and when I can’t, have shelled out the ducats for Xtra Innings, I agree heartily with your 4:19 post.

If you love the game, love your team, why would you let the miniscule percentage of juicing players stop you from watching or attending the games?

Why do the clean players not say and do more about the dirty players? Why let these cheaters - who would affect your stats, your performance and your pocketbook - continue to break the rules while you are trying your natural, unassisted damnest to compete on a level field? Why condone illegal performance with silent assent?

Is this some Man Rule I’m not acquainted with?

By Cleanuphitter16

December 15, 2007 1:03 AM | Link to this

DOB In all this god-awful steroid mess, all the finger-pointing, all the failures from the training rooms to the owners suites, one thing now stands out to me as a bright spot… What you just wrote in this blog. Your candor, honesty, and intelligence in that response to The Report were the best thing I’ve read since this mess hit the press. I’m generally a silent reader (every day) of this blog, but when credit is due, I’ll give it. And my friend, you could not be more correct. If only you were Commish instead of Bud! Thank you for keeping up your good work covering the team…and the game…we all love dearly.

By Choppinmama

December 15, 2007 1:11 AM | Link to this

Heard Smoltz on today with D Patrick (Dan, not Danica). The only nuggets of interest I remember were John’s vehement statement that he has NEVER entertained the notion of using PEDs, and he thinks all the named players are innocent until proven guilty, which will be a hard thing to accomplish given the sources of most of the info.

Oh, he also brought up the ironing non-incident as an example of a story you hear so often it becomes fact. The Smoltz Urban Ironing Legend is not true!

By NOLIE

December 15, 2007 1:11 AM | Link to this

Of course nobody has been gassed, but if you have hard time understanding comparisons you should go back to grade school.

If you need me to explain the comparison, ill gladly do so,oVERLORD

OK, I’ll go back to grade school as long as I can keep my masters too. It would obviously still put me several grade levels above you lil’ bubba, as that is the most ignorant and inappropriate comparison that I have seen since I used to work with handicapped kids. please do explain all the relevance between a few millionaires cheating in any sport and millions of people being murdered. Go step by step and very detailed please. You said you could do it, so go for it

By uga-brave

December 15, 2007 1:13 AM | Link to this

klober,

always like bantering with you. just got home from CHOPS so bear with me. if we were trying to GO FOR IT. we would not of traded edgar. nor would we let andruw go. this payroll thing is for the poor. there was a time we were the tigers. plug the holes with major league players. now there will be a time, when up the middle the braves will field sammons, escobar, johnson, and STOP-GAP.

WAY TO GO LIBERTY MEDIA.

By bocabrave

December 15, 2007 1:15 AM | Link to this

re: cleanuphitter16…well said, well said

By chrisklob

December 15, 2007 1:16 AM | Link to this

choppinmama, most folks don’t believe that the number of players juicing is a “miniscule” amount. The Mitchell report only attained information from a few sources. There are many, many other possibilities out there. Just because a player wasn’t named in this report doesn’t mean absolute innocence for any one of them. Frankly, I believe that the problem is much more widespread than what has been reported. I also believe that more players will be “outed” before this is all over.

But you do raise a very valid point when you ask why the innocent players have been quiet. Perhaps it’s because they have no absolute proof. A better guess might be that it would break the “code of the clubhouse”. What happens inside the clubhouse stays in the clubhouse. Break that rule and you’ll quickly find yourself outside the game. Guilty of cheating or not.

By Scott

December 15, 2007 1:26 AM | Link to this

I just want to know how come the NFL gets off without any hits? They’ve had guys suspended last year for trying to buy HGH but no one bats an eye at that? Everyone knows that steroids were everyone in the NFL during the 70s and 80s and people just assume they stopped doing it? PLEASE!!! Bill Romonowski was one of the guys that was associated with BALCO yet no mention of him. I guess because the NFL’s numbers in their record books mean jack crap they get off without any PR hit. It’s like America is against the game that I love and just looks away when the same thing goes on in so many other sports.

By richie

December 15, 2007 1:28 AM | Link to this

DOB, I knew you’d respond…The only person viable to start would be Chuck…and without a 3rd decent pitch, he will do the same thing he did this year…give up A LOT of long balls. Prior has been injured, and if we have taken on projects such as Reynolds, Burkett, A.Lopez, Mulholland and Redman, why not Prior? He has more big league experience than Chuck, Jurrens(and he has to do more…he needs to be at AAA until someone is hurt or if the staff is healthy most of the year, keep him there for 09 -I’ve seen him pitch, still needs work on command of strike zone)…Reyes, is young and in the same boat as Jurrens…he could use another AAA season as well, unless an injury happens…but really there is no way you could possibly put Prior and James in the same class…Prior has WAY better stuff than James…James got a “dead arm” from too much fastball motions pitches, in other words, too many fastballs and changeups…he could get by with that but he is not a precise pitcher and he gets shelled for going over the heart of the plate with a high 80’s fastball…Injuries are a part of the game but Prior would be a steal if he returns to form. If starting pitching is our top priority this year, then this is someone we could inquire on, gauge interest…we wouldnt be asking for him to be an ace again yet…let him build his confidence and arm up then gradually move him up the ladder…what do you think?

By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)

December 15, 2007 1:29 AM | Link to this

Well , went to see I Am Legend. Pretty decent flick all in all.

Will Smith looks like he could be in the best shape of his life and carried the character of Doctor Robert Neville throughout the film.

The ending is faithful to the book , I’m not going to spoil it for those who haven’t seen it yet. If you want to know more , just check out IMDb or just Google the title of the film.

This is the third remake of author Robert Matheson’s book written in 1954 and the first to actually use the same title.

Vincent Price starred in Last Man on Earth (1964) and Charlton Heston starred in Omega Man (1974).

It was funny though , I must have been the only one in the theater who knew the fate of the main character.

It was nice to get the baseball crap off the brain , for at least a couple of hours.

Christmas day , another Sci-fi blockbuster will hit the big screen. Alien vs. Predator Requiem.

By chrisklob

December 15, 2007 1:30 AM | Link to this

uga, hope you didn’t drive home!

Look, this is a business and most businesses are in business to make a profit. By necessity, they have to make good fiscal decisions. This is a reality that we all have to accept. This is not 1995 and Ted Turner, with is bottomless pockets, no longer owns this team. One of these days you’re going to either have to learn to accept this as fact, or you’re going to have to choose another team to root for.

I do not agree with you when you say that if they were trying to go for it that Edgar and Andruw would still be on the team. Escobar is almost as good as Edgar offensively and he’s a big step up defensively. Look at his numbers, they do not lie. I must vehemently disagree that Andruw would still be on this team. Frankly, I wouldn’t have offered him more than a few million dollars to come back because his offensive abilities SUCK. Yes, he’s still above average defensively, but he’s not as good as he used to be. He is hard-headed and selfish and has shown that he is not coachable. Not a good influence on the young talent on the team.

As far as the “up-the-middle” players you mentioned, I am quite comfortable with them all defensively. And when did Sammons displace McCann on the depth chart?

Bottom line is this: quit living in the past. Deal with the new reality because this is what we have now, like it or not.

By Jimmy H.

December 15, 2007 1:34 AM | Link to this

DOB..I would agree with you on getting Tony Clark signed if it’s possible. He would be a heck of a pickup for the bench. Getting Fuentes from the Rockies I’m not quite as sold on even though he has nasty stuff when right. If Gonzalez comes back healthy you’ve got the same type of nasty left-hander also.

By J_Dawg

December 15, 2007 1:35 AM | Link to this

Great blog, DOB. What I found interesting were the number of pitchers who used. I think for a long time, suspicion centered around position players. But Pettitte & Clemens? Neagle shocked me, too. I mean, if he was using between 2000-04, it sure didn’t show up in his numbers. He didn’t have an ERA below 4.5 during that time.

Todd Pratt was another former Braves player that I found odd. I always saw him as a straight-up ripoff from Tom Berenger’s character, Jake Taylor, in Major League—just a vet trying to help out the rookie. Pratt kind of even favors Berenger a little.

Looking forward to great work on making sense of Ol’ George’s report, DOB.

peace

By bocabrave

December 15, 2007 1:35 AM | Link to this

Coach: re: I am Legend…better than Omega Man? I heard mixed reviews. Omega Man scared the poop out of me…

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 15, 2007 1:40 AM | Link to this

Wow, sounds like we’ve got a little “roid rage” going on here with the blog tonight. Ya’ll have got to stop with the energy drinks while typing……

Remember Shef really blasted Bonds because he said he felt Barry had misled him as to what the “clear” and the “cream” really were? He was really angry at being pulled down with the whole BALCO thing.

I do remember Shef was one of the most reliable hitters the Braves had for a couple of years and you never heard of him being a problem in the club house. I always felt it was just economics that allowed Sheffield to go to the Zoo in NY.

On a lighter note…… the owners of Greyhound are posing nude for charity, could other corporate owners follow suit? After all, I am sure Arthur Blank has to feel he is losing his shirt with the Falcons….. Or at the very least feels he has been run over by a bus….

By uga-brave

December 15, 2007 1:54 AM | Link to this

klobber,

i never drive just let YELLOW CAB do it for me.

cmnon klobber you know this lineup has faults. tex, and HOSS are constants but who else? dont give me the GWINETT COUNTY ALL STAR TEAM.

k.j strikes out to much? who hits lead off? klobber you are HUGE braves fan.

so how do we off set rollins, victorino. reyes, castillo?

By Nolie

December 15, 2007 1:59 AM | Link to this

I don’t look forward to the torment of having to wait AN ENTIRE WEEK for new episodes. We’ve watched all of the old seasons on DVD, so we’d go through 3-4 episodes a night and be through in no time. One episode a week is going to be toughMikeS

gonna get a lot worse after that. from what I hear season 5 is projected as being the last one. what a bloody shame. It and The Shield are my favorite shows and both are scheduled to end soon. sigh

By uga-brave

December 15, 2007 2:06 AM | Link to this

the phils can run rollins, and victorino. the mets can run reyeys, and castillo.

the braves no leadoff hitter, klobber, have drinks with DOB’S

chuck taylors.

By choppinmama

December 15, 2007 2:18 AM | Link to this

Chrisklob: So it IS the “Code of the Clubhouse” Man Rule! Even so, the no-snitching unspoken rule just riles my sense of fair play. But, if it doesn’t bother the folks that are most affected by all this get-ahead-by-any-means-possible nonsense, I’m just going to sit back and enjoy the 2008 season.

I understand that most of this info came from just a few East Coast sources, and that there are many other players out there who are guilty of using PEDs, but don’t you think they are still in the minority? Do you think that over 50% of players in the past 10 years have used steroids illegally? Should we lump steroids users in with HGH users in our discussions, or is there some value in viewing them differently?

DOB: What numbers have you heard on the % of players using over the past 10 years or so?

So many questions for so late at night - or early on Sat. I’ll catch any responses later in the a.m. I guess I should be thankful that minor personal things keep me awake at night and not the fact that my name was in the Mitchell Report. Now, where’s my Ambien?

By uga-brave

December 15, 2007 2:22 AM | Link to this

klober,

you are drinking the kool-aid.\

there is no way our offense is gonna be better. escobar, and stop-gap are not gonna hit 40 dingers. we are gonna miss # 25. unless francouer picks it up we are doomed.

By Greg

December 15, 2007 2:23 AM | Link to this

Hey Dave, I’m the blogger that saw TWBB in San Francisco over a month ago. Yes I did say that it was probably the best film of our generation. I’ll just say this, since I live in New York I’ve been able to attend another screening of the film in the city and its just keeps getting better and better. It really is a film that you need to see multiple times to truly grasp the “epicness” of it. Every true film fan should see this but be prepared in that it is extremely polarizing. If you don’t have a thick skin and I mean extremely thick skin your probably going to hate it. But if you want to see pure film making and acting at its best then it is a must see multiple times. I don’t want to spoil any of you about any aspect of the film but the beginning is breathtaking and the ending is insanely brilliant that will haunt your thoughts for weeks. For a film geek such as myself you have to live in LA or NY because there are so many screenings of films here that you don’t receive until the major release date.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 15, 2007 2:27 AM | Link to this

And in sports news…… Jim Edmunds signs with the Padres. Does this mean Mike Cameron is closer to signing with the Braves?

By uga-brave

December 15, 2007 2:29 AM | Link to this

klober,\

who hits leadoff, for us?

By Jared

December 15, 2007 2:45 AM | Link to this

the braves no leadoff hitter

BS.

Most important stat for a leadoff hitter? OBP. In 2007:

Jimmy Rollins OBP: .344

Shane Victorino OBP: 347

Jose Reyes OBP: .354

Luis Castillo OBP: .362

Kelly Johnson OBP: .375

Yunel Escobar OBP: .385

And that OBP stat doesn’t include Jose Reyes’ NL-leading 21 caught stealings in 2007, which more than offset any of the production he may have contributed with his successful stolen bases. Baseball Prospectus, you can find it on your own, did a whole thing about how little successful stolen bases help a team over the course of a full season. I think it talked about how one of Ricky Henderson’s 100+ steal seasons only added about an extra two runs to his team’s offense over the full season. Those caught stealings are a killer for a team’s offense.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 15, 2007 2:45 AM | Link to this

Wow, I think it is going to be really interesting to see how a lot of players perform next season without chemical assistance. We might find that 25 homers is a high number instead of looking at 50. Then again, that 95 MPH fastball may really be something…..

Folks, I worked in an environment where drug use was rampant. I don’t mean steroids either, the company wanted to employ random drug testing and of course the union drug it’s feet on the issue mainly because it was high up union guys selling dope on the shop floor. So, when we had a chance we voted the rascals out.

Majority of folks just didn’t want to depend on a junkie to be working with them and honestly got tired of carrying them.

I think you are going to see that type of change in baseball the next few years, once they get back to a level playing field, I don’t think the guys that are clean are going to want to be put in a position of having to do something stupid just to keep a job.

Are there still going to be guys that cheat? Sure, but there are going to be fewer of them. You really don’t want baseball to resembling pro wrestling do you?

By uga-brave

December 15, 2007 2:54 AM | Link to this

gil,

murphy should be in, rice yeah. and the crime dog? the hawk? of course.

a lot of the players, minus clemmens . wow this mitchell report blew up it all. gil.

you are a union boss. right?

dale murphy deserves to be in right?

By uga-brave

December 15, 2007 3:08 AM | Link to this

gil,

klip, klop, klip,klop. this old thirsty horse, always thougt you were wise beyond years.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 15, 2007 3:16 AM | Link to this

uga-brave Use to be…. now retired due to disability. To be honest, I would rather work than be in constant pain but I have no choice in the matter. I held out as long as I could. Doctor said he didn’t know how I stood the pain, I told him neither did I….

And yes, Dale Murphy deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. He had the bad luck of being on some really bad teams. Maybe some of the voters will take another look at what he accomplished and how instead of being lazy and just looking at raw numbers.

I just finished reading a piece in the Washington Post on how many members of team management looked the other way when evidence of use popped up.

By Jared

December 15, 2007 3:18 AM | Link to this

Keep in mind Brian Fuentes of the Rockies. That Braves interest isn’t over yet. But I hear they just don’t want to take on his entire salary.

Talk about teasing. If the Braves don’t want to pay Fuentes’ salary, why are they still interested in him? The Braves planning on dumping salary? Trying to get the Rockies to send some cash along in the trade?

By uga-brave

December 15, 2007 3:20 AM | Link to this

mcFann,

i know you love brian, but for the love of gary carter tell him to lose weight, tell him to quit trying to pancake balls. just move that body.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 15, 2007 3:21 AM | Link to this

Okay, time to try and get some sleep. I will catch you folks later…..

By Chop Chop

December 15, 2007 3:25 AM | Link to this

Happened to be up and saw all the steroid talk. I’m expecting to turn on my iPod and have it shuffle to Zevon’s “Detox Mansion”…

By uga-brave

December 15, 2007 3:33 AM | Link to this

gil,

the dale muprhy push. the guy deserves it. so does crime dog 498 dingers, always loved the crime dog. fred mgcfiff was a great brave.

By Nolie

December 15, 2007 5:29 AM | Link to this

here’s an excerp from an article in the Baltimore Sun about Segui defending Roberts. Gives some insight into the litigation possibilities.

*Gripe or not, Roberts has very little legal recourse, according to Robert J. Kheel, an attorney and Columbia University lecturer-in-law.

“All that Mitchell is doing is that he is reporting a fact,” he said. “That is not libelous. It’s a factual report about what someone said. It could be true; it could be untrue. … [Mitchell] is not vouching for the correctness. He is just reporting that this is the information that was provided to him.”

Kheel said it’s difficult for a public figure, which Roberts is, to prove defamation.

“Assuming his innocence, his remedy is public relations,” Kheel said. “No one is saying he should go to jail. No one is saying his career should be interrupted. Someone is just saying something that may or may not be true and he can have a press conference and say that is wrong.”*

By ncgary

December 15, 2007 6:29 AM | Link to this

duh, zona stole haren, one solid prospect gonzalez the only 1 of 6 who stand a chance of sticking, and he isnt all star caliber in my opine, salary may have been an issue but haren was under contract cheap. unless he pulls up lame this was the bargain basement pitcher of the winter actually being offered

By Yars

December 15, 2007 7:44 AM | Link to this

DOB….the new Duran Duran album, ‘Red Carpet Massacre’ is quite good. I guess they’re a band people either love or hate. Their new album has the original lineup back, with the exception of guitarist Andy Taylor. Those who are a fan of their early 80’s stuff will like the new album. I still need to check out the new Hives album.

By Greg

December 15, 2007 8:17 AM | Link to this

Word is that SD wants Mark Prior. This could be really good for him. He needs to spend time with Greg Maddux as his pitching coach.

By raymond

December 15, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this

Dude, Why do you always have the lyrics of some lame a* song at the end of your article? Stick to the sports writing.

By Lew

December 15, 2007 9:20 AM | Link to this

Lecturer In Law? Isn’t that what most of us call our Mother In Law?

By ppaddy123

December 15, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

I find it interesting the negative comments some sports writers are making about the Mitchell report. The report is what it is….a start. Now, guys like Dale Murphy, who we all pretty much agree was clean, should be looked at again for the Hall of Fame. I have to believe the steroid era goes back to the early to mid 80’s. And if that is the case, guys like Murphy will be cheated if their numbers are compared to suspected “roid users.”

Ultimately, the steroid era must be set aside from the other MLB records. There is just no way to compare the numbers. One must wonder what Roger Clemens would have done without the “juice.” I have heard several comments made about suspected use by reporters on ESPN. I personally suspect a former braves 2nd baseman (not naming names). I find it interesting his decline mirrors testing legislation in MLB. Yes these are rumors and speculation, but you know…if something looks like Sh#% and smells like sh&#, it’s probably SH#%. It just seems obvious.

And I know he wasn’t the only one. How many relief pitchers? How many innings pitched compared to historical figures? In an era where starting pitchers don’t throw as many innings as they used to, (Neikro had over 300 innings a couple of times in his career compared to Smoltz’s 200+) it seems some of these guys are being used alot more. Has MLB created an HGH dependency for relief pitchers to help aid in recovery from throwing all those innings? The game has changed in the last 25 years. It is much more physically demanding the way it is played now. I’m not a stathead. I don’t have numbers to back me up. But I have two eyes and I can see for myself what is going on.

By nOLIE

December 15, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this

Lecturer In Law? Isn’t that what most of us call our Mother In Law?Lew

yep my ex-wife’s mother to a tee Lew.

By McFann

December 15, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

Yo, uga, put some capitals in your writing. It’s annoying to read because one can hardly tell when your next sentence starts.

tell [McCann] to lose weight? Dude, I told you, I never met the man!

I don’t want to go on and on like Lew or Braveheart, but here’s to you people: (To the tune of You’re My Better Half by Keith Urban)

You say he prevents/RBIs for Francoeur

I try to say you’re wrong

Yeah, I’ve said it before, but

The price that I pay/Sometimes it doesn’t seem fair

But you cannot get away with what you’re sayin’ here

(Refrain) Yeah, you say cruel things

Like “He’s fat and overrated”

Come on, you know that ain’t right

Please take my advise

I really don’t want to start a fight.

But it’s the meeeeeeeean things you say now and then

That make me leeeeeeeap out of my skin

But when it all comes down

I should just cool my wrath

‘Cause in ‘08, you’ll see

I’m gettin’ the last laugh!

(Verse) You say behind the plate’s about defense

Oh, sure, that ain’t a lie.

But when it comes to catcher’s/I’m glad Brian’s on our side.

Don’t you know how much we count on him to help us win?

He gives us ev’rything he’s got/And never feels like givin’ in.

Refrain

Pleas take my advice

And maybe next time you will think twice

It’s the meeeeean things you say now and then

That make me leeeeeap out of my skin!

Refrain

By TommyP

December 15, 2007 10:23 AM | Link to this

Gonna leave the Mitchell Report alone for now. It’s not like everyone hasn’t covered every angle at this point. I just found it interesting to see all the lefties (especially situational) on the list.

DOB: I’m really shocked that the Braves have Fuentes on their radar. Wow…that guy is a stud. One of my favorite pitchers to watch. How serious have talks been? Would they broaden the deal and bring in a CF? (Spillborghs????)

By Shaun

December 15, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this

ppaddy123, the Mitchell Report was a start? Gee, I hope not and I don’t think so.

Baseball started testing in 2002 because of all the news of surrounding players and steroids. In 2005 the owners and players agreed to change the policy—the first time the players have ever agreed to change anything in a collective bargaining agreement in the middle of it. Seems to me the start was 2002. All the Mitchell report does is take the information we basically knew and/or suspected and puts it all into one document—basically a waste of time and resources.

As I write in my blog, I applaud the commissioner for his attempt, but I think a better solution would have been for the commissioner to come out with his own statement in order to begin to move forward and away from the Juiced Era. He should have kept specific names out of it and outlined the steps that have been taken over the last few years and the steps baseball continues to take and will continue to take to try to move forward. Instead he used a former senator so that the document would look more official and more independent of owners and players. Instead of accomplishing anything, the Mitchell report merely stirred controversy.

By JasonInMaine

December 15, 2007 10:40 AM | Link to this

DOB, any idea what the Rox are looking for in return for Fuentes? Wow, he would be a great pick-up! Now, how about Baldelli (:

By doc

December 15, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

dont know if manny of the bosox got fingered or overlooked by mitchell on the board of the bosox but i have always suspected there was something underneath his oversized uni. i have thought he took that route rather than flaunt it the way most of the guys did starting with the original bruise brothers canseco and mcguire. also funny how the yankees got the finger and the bosox looked a bit cleaner. again the conflict of interest thing is huge even down to the report and the head of it. sham or scam easy to be cynical or sarcastic about the whole thing starting at the top.

you know i still love the sound of the ball against the bat and the smell of a good ball park. there just wasnt one better than ponce de leon ball park. geez, how i miss it each time i go by whole foods on ponce. i guess my vote still goes to remembering the good old days rather than the cynicism.

By chrisklob

December 15, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

uga, you my friend, should try drinking more kool-aid and less pinot noir! :-)

I never said this lineup is perfect. But I don’t think we’re going to miss AJ that much. Do us a favor and go to his page on baseballreference.com and look at his splits. His RISP numbers are ridiculously bad. No, won’t miss the rally killer at all.

choppinmama, that’s just speculation on my part. But I think it could be true. Clubhouse etiquette dictates that what happens inside doesn’t leave.

As far as how many other players used, we’ll never know the exact number. I’ve seen estimates that ranged from 30% to 80%.

By chrisklob

December 15, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this

Shaun, have to respectfully disagree with you that the Mitchell report was a waste of time. This document brought out plenty of names that we already knew and/or suspected but it also brought out plenty of names that we really didn’t suspect. To me, this is important because once you bring all the names together in one place it helps to showcase what a big problem PED’s have been in mlb.

And I am glad that they named names. There is very little recourse against these cheaters and lawbreakers. Public humiliation may be the only punishment that will ever be realized against these people. And with what it costs to take your family to a game don’t you think we deserve to know who’s playing honestly and who’s cheating?

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

Shaun, no way was it a waste of time. Too much money spent on the investigation, yes. But not a waste of effort, because anything that can bring more of this crap to light and underscore the importance of doing everything possible to make serious efforts to reign it in, helps. And putting another big face (Clemens) on the problem can only help bring it home for some out there with their heads in the sand. Sorry, I’m not buying Roger’s claims to innocence.

Also, this will put even more pressure on the union to capitulate, or at least compromise, on the issue of more serious drug testing, just as the congressional hearings put pressure on them bedfore and got testing ramped up in 2005, when they opened the collective bargaining agreement to make changes to the policy. Time to do it again, long before the new CBA runs out in 2011.

By Lew

December 15, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

McFann-Braveheart and I only go on and on because we have something worthwhile to say. We also address lots of topics, not just our infatuation with a single player. Also, if you’re going to write your own lyrics to the tune of someone else’s song, you might want to choose a song by an artist Denizens might actually listen to.

Just heard the best explanation of the Mitchell report on XM Home Plate. They compared it to a 20 month, $20 million report studying fast food and determining that fast food makes you fat. Enquiring minds want to know, right?

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this

Rockies want a mid-rotation starting pitcher, and Chuck James’ name has been mentioned. But they might also want a 2B, and I don’t think Braves would be willing to give up Kelly Johnson (Rockies would love to have him) unless the deal was expanded and they got another 2B in place. Can’t see them throwing Lillibridge into that without him getting more experience at the position.

Besides, Fuentes made 3.5 mill last season and will make far more in his final season of arbitration in 2008, before becoming a free agent. Can can’t see Braves doing it without Rockies picking up a chunk of his salary (Braves were going after Fuentes stronger before they got Ohman as a situational lefty).

Braves really like Kelly Johnson, and can’t blame them — he’s a hitter, pure and simple.

But Fuentes would give them a formidable 1-2 combo until Gonzalez returns, especially since they can’t count on Gonzalez being at full strength for 2008, so they’re still pursuing or listening to proposals.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this

Raymond, regarding your 9:18 a.m. post: Clearly, everybody does NOT love you. Good luck out there, son.

By doc

December 15, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this

chris the problem with this report is it just scratches the surface and doesnt reveal all for the “fan” just like ball four didnt. funny how both this report and the bouton book showered the yankees with blame. wonder if mr october used?

the players brought this on themselves as all gained as revenues and salaries went up as their player’s union stood fastly refused to bring the issue under control and thereby forced some to go over the edge including bonds who certainly wasnt the first, the last, but obviously the best as was the rocket. clemens was a user said it many times before the report and said it here.

obviously someone i.e. the union has to begin to consider the health issues. shame glavine isnt as outspoken there as he was for more money and the face of the strike. ok, cheap shot, but just a bit relevant as smoltz was one of the few lone voices calling for sane measures to protect all the players. look only to the steelers of the 70’s and the wwf for examples of how deleterious steroids are and why they are not sold over the counter and considered as dangerous a drug as opiates. it is also why your doctor doesnt just cave in and hand them out like candy if he is good. he loses his license if he does.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

Cleanuphitter, sincere thanks for your late-night comment. I do appreciate thatl…

Bocabrave, that was a great story about your father-in-law. He really doesn’t get it, does he? Probably a good thing, wouldn’t want to live with the knowledge of what I’d missed if I’d passed on tickets to attend the The Last Waltz….

By Frankie

December 15, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

Everybody is makin moves, trades, etc and the Braves just STAY PUT. WANNA SEE some MOVES Mr. WREN.

By KC

December 15, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this

DOB: “But they might also want a 2B, and I don’t think Braves would be willing to give up Kelly Johnson (Rockies would love to have him) unless the deal was expanded and they got another 2B in place. Can’t see them throwing Lillibridge into that without him getting more experience at the position.”

Seems to me that between Lillibridge and Prado, we’d be fine at 2B if KJ were traded. I’m not saying we should trade KJ… just that we’d be fine at 2B if we did.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

Frankie, Braves signed one of the few big-name free-agent pitchers (Glavine) and made two trades (Renteria to Detroit, Villarreal to Houston) before the Winter Meetings even took place. So every time another team makes a move these days, do you expect or want the Braves to make some sort of counter move, regardless of their needs and what’s available?

How many moves had Arizona made before this trade? Their fans were moaning about them not making any moves until this trade. Braves have made it pretty clear that they only consider CF and backup catcher as remaining “needs.” Just not what you and some others want to hear, but it’s the reality of the situation.

Or, you can keep expecting them to trade for the likes of Haren when they’ve said a dozen times that they’re not looking for any more starting pitching, that they don’t consider it a need.

By Josh

December 15, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

DOB - 11:34am post made me literally laugh out loud

I wonder if the Rockies would consider a trade of James/Prado for Fuentes? Might take a 3rd player from the Braves?

By ACF

December 15, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this

Frankie - Braves already made some moves, when these other teams were saying “Why are we staying put. Let’s make some moves already!” I don’t want to see Wren make moves just for the sake of making moves, because we all have ADD or something.

Fuentes makes sense for Chuck James, but not for Kelly. That would be too much for a one-year player Braves would not re-sign as free agent, even with Lillibridge waiting in the wings.

By Lew

December 15, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this

KC-Sorry, Dude, but Prado and Lillibridge may be able to handle the defensive aspects of 2B, but neither of them is the power threat that Kelly Johnson is and neither is as experienced a hitter as KJ. Keeping in mind the 42 HR we lost with the departure of Andruw and Edgar, we can’t afford to lose another 20 something potential HR’s. Johnson is a good hitter who gets on base frequently, hits for some power, hits anywhere in the order at any time and let us not forget his speed-remember all those triples. Fuentes may be a good set up guy, but we are not exactly hurting at that particular position, either.

By chrisklob

December 15, 2007 12:20 PM | Link to this

Frankie, have you been living under a rock the last month or so? Do you not realize that FW has been one of the more active GM’s since the WS ended? Are you paying attention? Do you have any sort of clue whatsoever? Do you want him to make a move just for the sake of making a move?

doc, the fact that this report DOESN”T tell all, I find very telling. Mitchell was able to link over 80 players with just a few contacts. To me, that really underscores how deep this problem runs. I am confident in saying that there are more guys like RAdomski out there with plenty of info on plenty of guys.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this

Josh, that’s interesting. I know I’d consider it (James/Prado for Fuentes), but given Braves payroll, probably not unless the Rockies would pick up some of his salary. Team with the Braves’ payroll isn’t going to pay Fuentes $6-8 mill to set up. That’s what he’ll get as a fifth-year arb guy.

By ray

December 15, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

In the Black Sox scandal,Commissioner Landis used his authority to take very drastic action,and saved Baseball as a result. There was never PROOF,in the legal sense,but all Landis needed was the extremely strong evidence that wrong-doing had taken place. After all,playing baseball in not a right but a privilege! I say,at least put an “asterisk” on all records broken during the chemical era. It won’t happen,of course,which means that records are now meaningless. Sad!

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

KC, I can’t grasp why would you be eager to swap Kelly’s offensive numbers (.276-.375-.457, 10 triples, 16 homers) for a completely untested rookie playing a new position (Lillibridge if he were at 2B) or for Prado (never hit more than 5 homers in a minor league season, OBPs of .330, .314, .374 in past three minor league seasons, and .277-.330-.366 with one homer in 101 major league at-bats) in order to get a lefty reliever who’d serve as a setup man and backup closer, and who’d be eligible for free agency after one season, and sure to get a nice contract to closer for someone at that point?

That makes zero sense.

Chuck for Fuentes? Yes. Chuck and something else for him? Yes, if they’ll pick up some salary. Chuck and Kelly for Fuentes? No.

By Ace350BM

December 15, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

So how is it that football is getting a free pass on the steriod/HGH issue? Just in the past year, two All-Pro players have been suspended for violating the NFL steroid policy (Shawn Merriman and Rodney Harrison). The same coverage has been given to some of the lower level minor league baseball players that have been suspended for failing steriod tests as was given to these poster boy All-Pro NFLers. You can’t convince me that at least the same, if not more, NFL players are using performance enhancing drugs. If you’re a college football player and you’re about to go to the combines, you can lower your 40 time by a tenth of a second and that can make the difference between you being a first round pick or a third round pick. In football, there’s such an emphasis on speed and power, and without a doubt, steriods make you faster and stronger. Also, football is a more violent game. One of the advantages of HGH is that is greatly enhances the body’s ability to recover from injury. How can these guys come back from broken bones, torn and strained muscles in such a quick time. It’s not a mystery to me. Yet, it’s baseball that has gotten the black eye from the steriod era that we live in.

By rich brave

December 15, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

For those of you wanting to see Kelly Johnson go, let’s not forget the transition he made last year and the all-out effort he put in over the winter of “06-‘07. He just wore down as the year went on. You will see the real Johnson in ‘08, and if he’s sub-par this time he’s probably gone. But I think the Braves are pretty confident he’ll pull his weight in ‘08. If anyone’s on the trading block for a back-up catcher or CF its Prado and/or another player in the lower minors. Braves are obviously in NO hurry to fill either position, figuring if they can’t pull off a favorable trade, they’ll exercise options with current and farm players. They’re not going to give up much to fill those two spots. Folks you’re looking at the probable 25 roster players in ‘08 already in-house.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 12:46 PM | Link to this

Ace350, I agree with you. And most who cover sports would tell you the percentage is at least as high, and perhaps much higher, among players using HGH in football over baseball.

But until there is outrage expressed by fans and more emphasis or concern expressed by media covering football and the league itself, nothing will change. Not until there’s a test for HGH.

I just don’t think most fans care much that there are 260-pound linebackers running 4.5’s and 340-pound linemen are common now in the NFL, in part because the game’s about collisions and the better the hits, the more enjoyable the viewing. You’d think players themselves would be concerned, however, as career spans shorten and injuries become more numerous and severe.

Baseball is unique, however, in its overwhelming emphasis and reliance upon stats for comparison of players through the ages. So when players started putting up single-season home-run totals that dwarfed those of legendary players like Aaron, Mantle, Williams, JoeD, etc, people started taking notice and questioning the validity of what they were seeing. Can’t just say, “Players are stronger and eat better” and expect that to fly with savvy observers. Not when 60-homer seasons were threatening to become just another big season, instead of monumental accomplishments.

Nothing similar to that occurs in football. Some ‘roided up freak isn’t rushing for 3,000 yards or averaging 12 yards per carry. No one in the NBA is averaging 40 points a game and there aren’t a rash of 280-pound forwards who can run the floor like guards and power over non-roid users. That’s the sort of equivelent you’d have to have for people to take notice the way they did in baseball.

That’s the best analogy I can make.

But again, I concur with your thoughts on the subject. Football is getting a pass, more or less.

By webhead

December 15, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

You know what? I just seen a picture of Greg Maddux back when he was ten, He’s at least twice that size now. So even he was juicin’. Damn!!

By Shaun

December 15, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

Bill James ranks Kelly Johnson as one of the top 50 players in baseball who were under 29 in 2007. I don’t see Prado or Lillibridge on that list.

By Braveheart

December 15, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

have any of you lecherous lowlives seen Tony Boselli doing NFL games on FOX these days? What happened to that big ole beefy left tackle? Dude looks like he used to be a wide receiver. It’s kinda like the way McGwire looked at the congressional hearings. It’s those things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

People seem to think second baseman who hit like KJ just grow on trees.

I used to like Martin Prado. Used to like him alot. Apparently however not as much as some others. I sometimes wish Prado would just get traded away now because I am tired of people pretending he is anything more than a future backup infielder.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

I haven’t seen anyone link it here yet, so just in case interested folks haven’t seen it, here’s a little bit of footage of last week’s reunion concert by the greatest rock band in history. Only wish we had more, since it looks outstanding (I’ll be in line when those tickets go on sale if the tour comes off as rumored):

mighty Led Zep

Oh, and we’ll only accept arguments from fans of the Rolling Stones, Beatles, The Who. We’re elitist like that.

And I said “rock” band. To me, The Clash is the greatest band of all time, period. But they’re punk rock. Again, we’re being music snobs.

By DonCoburleone

December 15, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

Whats the big kick about Fuentes all of a sudden anyway? I’d assume we would probably use Royce Ring as a throw in (since we obviously wouldn’t need 3 lefties in the bullpen) in a trade, but in order to get Colorado to pay some of his salary wouldn’t that mean we’d have to give up more in terms of players? Could Royce Ring and Martin Prado get it done? I seriously doubt it, Colorado would probably want James AND Prado for Fuentes & Cash. Proven closers seem to have very high trade value; whether that is warranted or not is another story (personally I think closers are the most overrated position in baseball - they are the running backs of MLB)…

By drixie

December 15, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

Dave:

If baseball writers using Rule 5 consider all the criteria (i.e. stats, character, etc.) and keep players with obvious HOF numbers like Mark McGuire out of the Hall based on character, integrity, etc., then what are your thoughts on a guy like Dale Murphy who had very good - but not great stats- yet whose character and integrity were second to none? To further his case, Murph also won 2 MVP’s. It would seem baseball writers could make a strong statement if Dale Murphy was in the Hall. As a human being he should have been a unanimous first ballot Hall of Famer.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 15, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

There is a reason that players have to get steroids and HGH from illegal sources. A competent doctor knows he cannot afford to risk his livelihood when the long term affects of a drug or substance is either known to be detrimental or is unknown.

If these substances were beneficial or had no downside then they could be made available to every player. However, when you have stories come out about an athlete killing his family and the cause is directly linked to these drugs, why should we condone the use or encourage it.

The way I see it, many club owners or GMs knew of the abuse but gave tactic approval by ignoring the problem and/or looking the other way. They wanted to maintain they knew nothing while enabling the players to cheat. When they wanted to get rid of a player who had become too expensive or out of control they would play the “roids” card.

We live in a very hypocritical society, it is okay until it affect me personally, then we cry foul because someone we know is fingered. They use to blame the baseballs for all the homeruns saying the balls were juiced.

By Brad in MT

December 15, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

I like the idea of Fuentes, he has great stuff and would really make our bullpen strong, but not if it means including Kelly. I would think that Chuck and Prado however would be a good move, but I’m not sure about Prado’s value to other teams.

By Braveheart

December 15, 2007 1:12 PM | Link to this

Chuck James makes sense for alot of NL West teams because of the big parks out there. But Chuck James in Coors Field is a rather frightening thought even with the humidor. Who knows? Maybe some of those flyballs he gives up for homers here will just turn into flyouts there with their huge outfield. But I think Chuck will most likely give up even more homers and also more hits because more hits will fall in in front of the outfielders. Why would Colorado think about Chuck? They need to be looking more for a starter who keeps the ball down.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 15, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this

Hey rich brave How have you been, I was worried about you. Not seeing you much on the blog lately.

By McFann

December 15, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this

Lew

I don’t know what the heck you guys on this blog listen to, but it sure don’t sound like anything I’d ever care to hear.

By BosnianBaller

December 15, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this

I agree with DOB.Tony Clark would be an amazing player coming off the bench considering he’s killed us in the past

By Braveheart

December 15, 2007 1:18 PM | Link to this

McGwire and Clemens should be kept out of the HOF. But then so should Bud Selig. If they can’t get in, neither should Bud someday. Bud is even more guilty of this roids mess than anyone else. That whole I had no reason to suspect roids defense he used in Congress was embarassing. As DOB said above, Bud should have known unless he is really that out of touch with the players and the teams and what is going on down in the trenches. How can you be commissioner and not know what is going on when my big fat a@@ sitting on my comfy couch can clearly see what is going on and which players are most likely using?

By Macdaddy

December 15, 2007 1:18 PM | Link to this

David The Fuentes stuff doesn’t make a whole lot of sence. How much stronger does the bullpen need to be? 3 lefties? Would Taveras come over in a deal? Does this mean that the Braves don’t hold alot of hope for Ohman?

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 1:27 PM | Link to this

Macdaddy, I didn’t say it was something the Braves were working feverishly to make happen. Some people here are turning it into that. I merely said they haven’t shut the door on the Fuentes talk, that the Braves are still listening. But again, they wanted the Rockies to pay part of the salary, and I don’t think Rockies are interested in doing that.

And do you really have a lot of faith in Ring? I mean, he’s OK, but nothing special. I can see why they’d at least still be listening on Fuentes, with Gonzalez not due back until around the break. Right now, don’t really have the sure-fire setup guys you had going into last season, when you had Gonzalez and Soriano to set up Wickman. Right now you have Moylan, who’s not spent much time in a setup role, and who, Yates?

By GermanBravesFan

December 15, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

DOB: has there been any more discussion between the Braves and any other team regarding a center fielder?

By KC

December 15, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

Boy… I hope we don’t match up with the D-Backs in the NLDS. They’re going to be a b!tch in a short series especially!

Not that the Braves wouldn’t be with Smoltz and Hudson, but I think I’d rather face anyone else in the league in a short series now than the D-backs.

By Sir Stealth

December 15, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this

Do the Dead count as a rock band? If not, I’d take the Stones.

By David-ATL14

December 15, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this

DOB two comments, My sister was in London and got to see Zep at the O2 arena/Ertegun tribute. Just lucked in to it timing wise her and her husband has a previously scheduled trip across the pond. Had the concert went off as originally planned on NOV 26?. Wouldn’t have gotten to see it. She sent me an EMail saying it was outstanding. Should be able to ask for more details during Christmas visit.

Now on to baseball and the Braves. What about a package of Ohman,James and Prado for Fuentes? Ohman’s inclusion would offset 1.6M of the additional payroll. Ohman,James and Prado as a trio would be roughly 2.4/2.5m.

Would Braves still expect the Rocks to pick up anything above that?

If the answer is yes, then roughly how much would you think BlogMaster DOB?

By MikeS

December 15, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

I’d be ecstatic if a Led Zep tour came to fruition. No question in my mind that they are the greatest rock band of all time. Has anybody heard how Bonzo’s son Jason did replacing him on drums? I’m only 30 so I never got to see them live, but my Dad told me that John Bonham’s drum solos live were just flat out amazing. That he would go on for 20 minutes plus and just have the crowd mesmerized.

By Shaun

December 15, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

For those who thought the Braves should have grabbed Haren, consider what Arizona gave up: six solid-to-great prospects, including one of the best positional prospects in baseball in outfielder Carlos Gonzalez.

Judging by that the Braves probably would have had to give up either Kelly Johnson or Yunel Escobar plus at least three more solid prospects.

By Macdaddy

December 15, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

Yates can throw smoke if he’s on, but you right about the ‘sure-fire’ setup men. Some young options might exist in Devine and Boyer. I wonder if Ring has an option left? Mike Cameron’s not going back to SD anymore, is the talk on him within the orgnization dead? I’ve got to think he’s been humbeled a bit by his offseason.

By Steamboat

December 15, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this

Having Fuentes would be great but geez, how many LH relievers are we gonna go through… McBride, Ledezma, Mahay, Ring, Ohman… now we’re looking for another?

No way I’d deal Chuck James for a guy we only need for 3 months. Gonzo is gonna be making a lot of money, and should be back mid-summer. We’ve paid a price (in players) for Ring and Ohman.

To give away a guy who’s young and under our control, and who’s likely to pitch 160 or more innings, for a 1-year rental reliever who’ll probably not pitch more than 65 innings, just doesn’t make sense to me.

I know a lot of you are down on Chuckie. I’m not… he’s a fine 4/5 starter, and worth more than 1 year of lefty relief.

By TexasBrave

December 15, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

DOB - In your opinion what qualities must a reliever have to be in the setup role? I mean in my book I would be happy with someone who could come in and go three up and three down on a consistent bases no matter if he throws heat or off-speed. Must all setup men have a “I am going to blow you away” mentality?

For my money, Moylan gets the job done more times than not. I like him better in a fireman role, but think he could also be a good set up man because he gets hitters out.

Is there something in Moylan that you see that would not make him the ideas setup guy?

By dcarp23

December 15, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this

DOB and others-if you were putting together your Dream Rock Band, who would you have as front man? I wrestle with this a lot. The one I wish I had seen in person is Jim Morrison. The top one of my generation is, in my opinion, Axl Rose. The most underrated of all time, in my opinion, is Freddy Mercury. In terms of shear power, I don’t think you get better than than the Bon Scott/Brian Johnson AC-DC leadership.

But in the end, I always end up back with Robert Plant. The versatility, the power in his voice and the fact that it is so unique and haunting makes him, in my book, tops all-time.

By BabyGoatEater

December 15, 2007 2:40 PM | Link to this

Why do the Braves fans on this blog seem to hate Kelly and Chuck so much? They are two relitavely young good players. No, I wouldn’t call either great but they are good. Many teams would love to have them. DON’T TRADE THEM. Why? Kelly has a poor mans Chipper written all over him. Maybe not 30 plus homer power but definately 20ish. Maybe not .310 batting but definatley .285ish. Chuck is never going to strikeout 10 a game but he’ll give you 3 great innings and 3 good ones. The same people who were cryin about giving up the farm for a rental player (Texeira) are gonna also cry about NOT giving up the “better than farm” for another rental player (Fuentes). Come on. Think about it.

By Robert

December 15, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this

“Baseball needs to turn its drug policy and enforcement over to an independent body, preferably the United States Anti-Doping Agency. “

No, no, and again no. Baseball needs to take care of its own business internally.

Baseball is not a moral forum. Baseball players are not role models. Baseball is sport, entertainment, and business.

If you like what you see, and deem it worth your money to attend, then go to games. If you dont, then dont.

By the way, it was nice to see Bradley turn steroids into excuse number 4623 for the Cox apologists with his ‘the guys that beat us were juiced’ take on things

By TommyP

December 15, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

Gotta think now that Edmonds is a Padre, that will cool talks with Pittsburgh for McLouth. San Diego seemed to be his biggest suitor.

Maybe his stock goes down a bit and makes for an easy Atlanta pickup?

Arizona paid a king’s ransom for Haren. Their once-stocked minor league system that was just overflowing with talent is looking pretty barren right about now. They better win now. Blanton should go next.

Not a fan of the musical aspect of this blog but I’ll get into the spirit just this once.

With that, I leave you with the lyrics from Kenny G’s latest: “…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………”

By mississippibrave

December 15, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

If my memory serves me correctly, didn’t Frank Wren say the Braves were going to spend many more millions in addition to Glavine? I understand that payroll will rise due to arbitration and contractual raises, but why would a GM say such a thing and then be concerned about paying for a top line lefty? I’d love to see Fuentes firing for us, just not at the expense of Kelly. That would be crazy.

By TexasBrave

December 15, 2007 2:54 PM | Link to this

As others have said on this blog, I can’t imagine why the Rocks would want James who is a fly ball pitcher. The asking price would more than likely be one of our young guns and more.

Right now I can’t imagine the Braves going after another reliever unless the positives far out weight what we would be losing. IMO losing one of our young future starting pitchers is not an option we should be pursuing when there is going to be a good battle for bullpen spots this year.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 3:12 PM | Link to this

Robert wrote: “No, no, and again no. Baseball needs to take care of its own business internally.”

Yeah, because baseball has proven itself so capable of taking care of its own business internally. Good point, Robert.

Now I see why you usually keep your focus on one topic: Bringing down The Big Bad Manager (readers insert nose-picking joke and barnyard noise; we’ll take care of that for Robert ahead of time)

By TexasBrave

December 15, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this

Hey lets stop this all this talk about trading Chuck. He is going to make an excellent 5th wheel for us this year, even if he only brings what he had last year. Then if he learns a few things from Tom G then he will be a good 3 spot in the rotation in the future.

Guys we are going to need all the good starting pitching we can get starting next season. We are going to need Chuck in the future in our rotation. I would hate to go into next season with only Hudson as our veteran starter. That means we will have to pound the trade and FA markets and you know that is going to cost us plenty.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this

DCarp, gotta go with Plant. Got to.

And I’d go with Joe Strummer second, but I know most would pick Mick or Daltrey. I’d put the Lizard King ahead of those two, at least when he wasn’t completely out of his mind wasted. Axl, if he’d had more longevity, surely would make any list.

You’re right about Mercury, too. Queen way underrated by many.

By TennesseePaul

December 15, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

Be worth having him just so the Braves don’t have to face Clark
C’mon now DOB. You know very well players don’t hit well against a jersy.

Bill James ranks Kelly Johnson as one of the top 50 players in baseball who were under 29 in 2007. I don’t see Prado or Lillibridge on that list.
I can understand not ranking Prado. Marteen isn’t all that and I hope we don’t have to watch him next season. Replace KJ with Marteen and put rookies in the outfield and we’d cruise right to another 3rd place finish. Lillibridge though, his ranking is interesting. Is this MLB rankings? Possibly Brent wasn’t ranked because he didn’t play in the majors last season. But whatever, I still wouldn’t want to dump KJ for a 1 year rental lefty set up guy.

the greatest rock band in history
Without a doubt. 4 guys. All of them the platinum standard at their instruments. I know you love the Clash DOB and that’s cool, but for my money, it doesn’t get any better than Led Zeppelin. I’m torn on the Beatles. Grew up listening to that band and I’ve always listed them as the default greatest in history. They were exceptionally good and probably the best writing duo in the last 40 or so years. Over the years though the #1 and #2 spots in my library flip flop between the two. Right now Zeppelin is on top. Great thing is, I have all the work of both bands so I really don’t have to decide anything other than what song I want to hear.

consider what Arizona gave up: six solid-to-great prospects, including one of the best positional prospects in baseball in outfielder Carlos Gonzalez.
Yes. I read this Dayne Perry analysis as well. I think the Braves could have obtained Haren without giving up 6 players. Well, it wasn’t exactly 6. The D-Backs got Robertson back as well. Maybe it was 5.5 players. I get the impressing Robertson was to balance out the package. I still think the Braves would have had enough to send to them without destroying the team or the farm.

And, for the record, I’m still against anymove that ships Chuck James out for any sort of 1 year player. The Braves have control over Chuck James for the next 4 seasons. Using 4 season to acquire a stop gap CF or a 60 inning specialist seems like a complete waste. Add to that the fact that James has performed at or above league average for his entire time up in the show and it seems like an even bigger waste.

By McFann

December 15, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

Oh, and another thing, Lew, I have plenty of worth while things to say. Not like you guys would know, though. You never listen to me.

By FJR

December 15, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

top 10 of 2007:

1 - Of Montreal - Hissing Fauna, Are You The Destroyer? - Kevin Barnes is brilliant. If you want to know what the Beatles might sound like if they had grown up in the US, had been influenced by the 60s beatles in addition to 80s dance music and a whole plethora of other stuff, listen to Of Montreal. 2 - The Avett Brothers - Emotionalism - Just great, great songs. Everybody I talk to feels like at least 4 songs off this album were specifically written for them. 3 - Dr. Dog - We All Belong - Something about these guys really makes me think of a modern version of The Band. But I can’t ever really figure out why I make that connection exactly. Alaska is one of my favorite songs of the last few years. 4 - Kanye West - Graduation - as others have said, I have tired of Stronger (although its great for what it is, an addictive single), but songs like Good Morning are what makes this ALBUM great. 5 - Wilco - Sky Blue Sky - take a great songwriter and a band that really compliments each other, but lacks that special something, add in a brilliant but tasteful guitarist = amazing album. 6 - The Broken West - I can’t Go On, I’ll GO On - Jangle indie pop rock at its best. 7 - BRMC - Baby 81 - Grinding album that gets back to what made BRMC great int eh first place. They’re just straightforward driving rock and they make no apologies for not being Radiohead. 8 - Bright Eyes - Cassadaga - Its what you would have expected, which is good enough for #8 9 - QOTSA - Era Vulgaris - Again, its refreshing that real rock records are still being made 10 - Ryan Adams - Easy Tiger - Similar to Bright Eyes, its what you would have expected and that was good enough for #10

Haven’t had time to fully digest the radiohead album yet, so I won’t put it on here yet.

I just dont like Neon Bible. I mean its okay, but nothing special to me. I put it in the “I wouldn’t skip it if it came up on shuffle, but I don’t ever see myself saying “man, I haven’t listened to neon bible in a while, that would sound good right about now”” type of album.

Band Of Horses is right outside the top 10. They’re one of those bands that I say “man, this song was good, but then they wrote it 10 more times to fill in teh record.” I’d like a little more variation in the songs they write.

Additionally an album by some young kids from augusta, The Edison Project - Do You Remember Rock and Roll, produced by Don Dixon, producer for R.E.M., is amazing, but being friends with several of them I wont list it due to a lot of personal bias. Although I think it would stand up with just about anything anybody is doing. Really guys, check it out. The single DC and Me has been getting a fair amount of radio play in atlanta. (was the top requested track on Dave FM a couple of weeks ago)

By Mikey

December 15, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

I would love to pickup say Fuentes and Tavaras. I still think we should deal James and Diaz to the Reds for Josh Hamilton. Now that you have Hamilton you have young CF for years to come. Now that CF is in place, create a deal involving Schafer, Lilbridge, Reyes, Evarts, and Cordier for Bedard.

By FJR

December 15, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this

top 10 of 2007:(easier to read version, I guess number signs break paragraph entries)

1 - Of Montreal - Hissing Fauna, Are You The Destroyer? - Kevin Barnes is brilliant. If you want to know what the Beatles might sound like if they had grown up in the US, had been influenced by the 60s beatles in addition to 80s dance music and a whole plethora of other stuff, listen to Of Montreal.

2 - The Avett Brothers - Emotionalism - Just great, great songs. Everybody I talk to feels like at least 4 songs off this album were specifically written for them.

3 - Dr. Dog - We All Belong - Something about these guys really makes me think of a modern version of The Band. But I can’t ever really figure out why I make that connection exactly. Alaska is one of my favorite songs of the last few years.

4 - Kanye West - Graduation - as others have said, I have tired of Stronger (although its great for what it is, an addictive single), but songs like Good Morning are what makes this ALBUM great.

5 - Wilco - Sky Blue Sky - take a great songwriter and a band that really compliments each other, but lacks that special something, add in a brilliant but tasteful guitarist = amazing album.

6 - The Broken West - I can’t Go On, I’ll GO On - Jangle indie pop rock at its best.

7 - BRMC - Baby 81 - Grinding album that gets back to what made BRMC great int eh first place. They’re just straightforward driving rock and they make no apologies for not being Radiohead.

8 - Bright Eyes - Cassadaga - Its what you would have expected, which is good enough for #8

9 - QOTSA - Era Vulgaris - Again, its refreshing that real rock records are still being made

10 - Ryan Adams - Easy Tiger - Similar to Bright Eyes, its what you would have expected and that was good enough for #10

Haven’t had time to fully digest the radiohead album yet, so I won’t put it on here yet.

I just dont like Neon Bible. I mean its okay, but nothing special to me. I put it in the “I wouldn’t skip it if it came up on shuffle, but I don’t ever see myself saying “man, I haven’t listened to neon bible in a while, that would sound good right about now”” type of album.

Band Of Horses is right outside the top 10. They’re one of those bands that I say “man, this song was good, but then they wrote it 10 more times to fill in teh record.” I’d like a little more variation in the songs they write.

Additionally an album by some young kids from augusta, The Edison Project - Do You Remember Rock and Roll, produced by Don Dixon, producer for R.E.M., is amazing, but being friends with several of them I wont list it due to a lot of personal bias. Although I think it would stand up with just about anything anybody is doing. Really guys, check it out. The single DC and Me has been getting a fair amount of radio play in atlanta. (was the top requested track on Dave FM a couple of weeks ago)

By TennesseePaul

December 15, 2007 3:45 PM | Link to this

I keep reading this talk about KJ striking out too much. Now I pick at Payne for his continued rants on K’s but in the case of KJ, I’d agree. KJ walks enough to make the K’s irrelavent. If he wasn’t walking then it’d be a problem. He wouldn’t be helping the team at all. But he K’s a lot because he takes a lot of pitches. He runs up pitch counts. Very different than AJ or Francoeur. Those two strike out because they are jumping the gun and trying to do more than they should with a pitch they shouldn’t be swinging at. Francoeur showed improvement, but he could stand to improve more. I’m not trying to run the guy into the ground, but there is a difference between the way he K’s and the way KJ K’s.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)

December 15, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

Brian Fuentes ? I hadn’t heard that one before.

Here is the scouting report with some other info I dug up.

Tons of size and tons of heat behind it. Great with runners in scoring position and has improving command.

Tends to need a few pitches to reach his full force and his approach against right-handed hitters has been a problem but is improving.

He is closer material with a 92-94 MPH fastball , nasty slider with a frisbee like delivery and a decent change up. He fares better against left handed hitters than righty’s.

His 2007 numbers : 3-5 with 20 saves and an ERA of 3.08

I’d throw Chuck James and Martin Prado together in a trade but not Kelly Johnson. I would ask for a minor leaguer just to make it a two for two traded.

By Oregon_Braves

December 15, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

Greatest band of all time? Sure, you can throw out the usual suspects as you guys have, but my dark horse (if a band this enormous can be called such) is U2. They really get the short end of the stick with a lot of people because they didn’t come from the 60’s and they are STILL putting out great new music. Maybe once their career is done, they will be put into the upper echelon where they deserve to be. Or maybe if one of them dies of a drug overdose.

By TennesseePaul

December 15, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

U2 is a good band. I can’t put them up on the apex of the pile, though they’d certainly be near the top. If it wasn’t for Pop-Mart or Zooropa they’d be much higher. All that you can’t leave behind was an OK album. Several songs on there just don’t do it for me which drops it from the top of their albums. They do have some great stuff for a late 70’s/80’s band. I run them up there along side of R.E.M. as far as great bands from that “era”. I know they still put stuff out today, but their origins are from the olden days. I tend to group the band with their beginnings. Much like I toss the Rolling Stones into a 60’s band even though they’ll continue to play and tour for another 50 or 60 years. They just don’t quit.

By FJR

December 15, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this

based just on what band has the most songs you want to listen to the most, I’d have to say the Stones are the greatest.

My personal favorite is Oasis though. Noel Gallagher is the dog’s bollocks. Don’t look back anger is a toooooon man.

By McFann

December 15, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this

I agree. Francoeur’s K’s are pure annoying.

Gotta run. Need to buy meal worms for the “homeless birds” of the neighborhood.

By Overlord

December 15, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

KC who says DBacks are already in the playoffs? Theres lots of competition to beat in that competition (Dodgers and Rockies). And if they compete for the WC, competition wont be easy there either…….mets, phillies, braves, Cubs, Brewers, Cards. Haren has not shown his magic will be as good in the NL. As far as i know the DBacks chances to make it to the playoffs is as good as at least 8 teams in the NL.

By braveheart

December 15, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

why didnt the braves try to get Edmonds - hes only signed through 08 for 8mm and the cards even through in 1mm.. anyone?

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 4:09 PM | Link to this

Oregon-Braves: You’re right about U2. Incredible body of work. They should be included in the upper echelon already. In my book, they’re one of the five or so great rock bands.

Actually, I’ll even amend my original statement: Arguments for U2 also accepted.

As for the Dead (someone asked), I don’t put them in the list just as I don’t put The Clash or Ramones or Metallica in it, just not what I think of as straight-ahead rock (though I know many, many would argue. Hey, it’s entirely subject. No correct answers.)

I’d put the Dead in a jam-band subcategory, something like that. Because if there’s no differentiating, then the argument of who’s the best rock band would go on forever and you’d have 500 different opinions, at least.

Then you’ve got Neil and Crazy Horse, are they a band or is he a solo artist? I was just trying to narrow it for the sake of argument. But I certainly know plenty of folks would argue the Dead, Skynyrd, Guns N’ Roses, Nirvana or Pearl Jam belong in the list. Or Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, and on and on….

Personally, I’d put the U2, REM, Replacements, Nirvana, Pixies, the Smiths, Sonic Youth, X, the DBTs, and Elvis Costello and the Attractions at the top of my more contemporary rock bands (after the Classic Rock era), with My Morning Jacket and other newer bands knocking at the door. But I know most wouldn’t even classify REM or Smiths or others on my list in the same category as Led Zep, which is hard rock any way you look at it.

Like I said, The Clash top my list, but I’d put them in a punk-rock category, and Metallica in metal, that kind of thing.

Again, entirely subjective, obviously. Just fun to debate it.

By FJR

December 15, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this

anybody here on Last.fm?

Its a pretty sweet site for the musically obsessed.

just to show you what it does

http://www.last.fm/user/FJRabon/

By Chop Chop

December 15, 2007 4:23 PM | Link to this

The Who and Led Zep will fight it out for all eternity to be the best rock band ever, but my favorite band of all time is Metallica. I started out on Metallica as a kid. My appreciation of the musicianship of that group opened me up to all kinds of music that I wouldn’t have cared for if I’d just been a headbangin’ fool. Metallica made music relevant to me.

By A.J.

December 15, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

braveheart:

The Braves didn’t get Edmonds because they didn’t want to pay 7 mill (the portion the Padres will pay) for a centerfielder who may not even play 100 games.

Last year he only managed to play I think 117 games (that stat may be completely bogus, but I think I heard that number).

Plus while his offense probably won’t be bad, you know it won’t be particularly good.

I mean, sure all of our three inhouse options could end up being terrible, but one could end up doing relatively well, plus any of the three would contribute a little speed.

So for the money, it’s just better to get three rolls of the dice on production (four if you count Lillibridge) than to pay 7 mill for Edmonds who’s production is consistent and would be beneficial to the team, but on whom you are rolling a 7 million dollar dice that he’ll stay healthy.

We already have to pray for Chipper and good starters to stay healthy, we don’t need an aged, relatively expensive centerfielder to add to the top of our prayer list.

Long story short, you don’t pay 7 million for a stop-gap, who won’t stay healthy. The Braves would rather pay a Randy Winn that much and know that he’ll play every day (though I don’t think he’s available, but he only made 5 mill last year).

By Lew

December 15, 2007 4:29 PM | Link to this

McFann-I was just giving you a bit of griendly grief, but if you really want to go for it, be my guest. Quite honestly, you couldn’t hold a candle to either Braveheart or Myself, no matter how well you think of yourself.

Now as far as the music goes-Dude, my CD collection exceeds 1300 volumes. Gee, not a single thing by Keith Urban and yet I still feel my collection is pretty extensive and well rounded. As far as what I listen to-this week it included The Miracle by Queen, the new Decemberists, the new Cult, Heroines by Tony Joe White, Rainbow Warriors by Molly Hatchet, Winter Carols by Blackmore’s Night, the new cd by Jon Oliva’s Pain, The Lost Christmas Eve by Trans Siberian, Jason Isbell’s new solo, Brain Salad Surgery by Emerson Lake and Palmer, Zeppelin 2 and Soulfully Live in the City of Angels by Glenn Hughes. That work for you? BTW Dude, what did McCann have for dinner last night?

By z3r0

December 15, 2007 4:48 PM | Link to this

just going through the post sorry for using you name braveheart .. didnt realize someone else was using that name - my bad

By Shaun

December 15, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this

Honestly, I think there is something here that no one will ever say out loud but is probably true: Everyone wants baseball to clean up its act but also a lot of people just aren’t that concerned. PED use is far from the worst thing that could be going on with baseball and the tide is turning to stop this. Many people just think, “yes, this needs to stop and will but it’s not a huge deal because it really doesn’t affect the world at large.”

Baseball has survived gambling and brawling, huge parts of the game from the time the game because nationally popular in the later 1800s through about the first two decades of the 20th century. There this myth that the 1919 World Series was the only major tainted event in baseball history but there is strong evidence that other key games and even other World Series games were also thrown and/or fixed. Baseball eventually took care of the gambling and brawling and general wildness. Baseball will survive the PED scandal.

The biggest issue is minors using because their “heroes” use, but I’m not sure how often this goes on. I suspect it’s the same as with a lot of things, it goes on but not at alarming levels. Much like other drugs, a lot of this has to do with parents, coaches, teachers, etc. not getting through to get young people to understand the risks; not in all cases, I’m sure, but many.

I think parents fear so much more things than whether or not athletes are using PEDs. This is very different from parents being careless towards baseball cleaning up its act; no sane parent would not want baseball to do all it can to clean up its act. But I just think the athletes as role models so we have to stop this thinking is a little overplayed.

By Oregon_Braves

December 15, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this

Chop Chop - I know what you mean about Metallica. Doors were opened for me, as well. I was in high school when …And Justice for All came out and I knew the band by name only. I bought a cassette single (remember those?) for One and my brain exploded on impact. I wore out Kill ‘Em All through Justice.

Then the Black Album came. Liked some of the songs. Saw them in concert three times on that tour (once in New Orleans with GnR and Faith No More, which is another under-appreciated band). But the shift was way too abrupt for me. Just never clicked the same way. I know some people like the post-1991 stuff, but it all sounds generic to me now. Bob Rock ruined that band.

By Jared

December 15, 2007 4:57 PM | Link to this

Do not trade Kelly Johnson, even for a top lefty set-up man like Fuentes. Martin Prado would be a huge downgrade, and it’s not worth one year of Fuentes.

Keep Kelly Johnson and let him play everyday already!

By Matt Berliner

December 15, 2007 5:00 PM | Link to this

The game of baseball at the major league level maybe tarnished a little…but the game itself is still as good, pure and honest as it ever was. To prove my point: Next spring, go to your local little league field and watch the kids play. Baseball will always be about dirt fields, kids, dreams, hot dogs, soda pop and summertime. No one can ever take that away.

By Matt Berliner

December 15, 2007 5:04 PM | Link to this

Dave…what about OASIS?…definitely one of the best bands…better than Pearl Jam easily.

By Oregon_Braves

December 15, 2007 5:10 PM | Link to this

Dave - I understand segregating the “newer” bands into a separate era, but do you realize that classic rock radio now consists of bands like U2, Motley Crue, Guns ‘N Roses, REM, Ratt, The Replacements, etc… You know, bands whose albums I remember waiting to be released?? How is this possible? My gosh, I feel like I’m 34 going on 80!

Lew - Saw your list of recent plays included the new Cult. Please tell me you have some love (pun intended) for the Sonic Temple era also?

By Oregon_Braves

December 15, 2007 5:13 PM | Link to this

Oasis was definitely a good band. Definitely Maybe and Morning Glory were both exceptional. I second the earlier notion on Don’t Look Back in Anger. That was the best Beatles song that they never wrote.

By FJR

December 15, 2007 5:15 PM | Link to this

glad to see somebody else tooting the Oasis horn. The songs Noel Gallagher wrote, are just unreal. When you think about the fact that songs like Acquiesce, one-way road, The Masterplan were B-Sides, its mind-boggling. The throw in the huge hits like Whatever, Wonderwall, Don’t Look Back In Anger, Champagne Supernova, Live Forever, etc.

Standing on the shoulders of Giants was an okay album and Be Here Now was a little overwrought, but other than those two this band has a ridiculous catalog.

By mo in the boonies

December 15, 2007 5:16 PM | Link to this

Compliments to DOB on a honest and heart-felt blog posting. It is appreciated.

I have been immersed in the Mitchell report. I think it was an honest, and as thorough a report as possible, since Mitchell didn’t have subpoena power to force players to talk to him.

And unlike some on here, I do believe it is important to air out the wrongs in order to insure they don’t continue. Names had to be named or what was the purpose of the report? And I do not believe in sweeping the report under the rug as immaterial and get on with life. That is one of the problems with society today, too may people don’t want to be bothered with anything that disrupts their life or routine, or is too unpleasant to think about.

I’m also amused at the people on here who were not indignant about the report, until the name of one of the prized Braves was mentioned. Justice is sacred, but Rocker and Sheffield are not? Come on people “in for a penny, in for a pound” What is fair for one is fair for all.

By RC December 14, 2007 4:27 PM After reading most of the report and seeing some of the spotty “evidence” they have that some players used, I would hope that any innocent players would take legal action against Mitchell and his team for defamation. The person who would seem the most likely would be David Justice, since he originally cooperated with the investigation, said that he NEVER used any substance but didn’t deny it’s availability, and there is no evidence of the CHECK he supposedly wrote for HGH, even though they have scores of other checks.

Perhaps Justice used the same method of paying as Kevin Brown. The following is taken from the report:

Kevin Brown — Radomski said that Paul Lo Duca referred Brown to him in 2000 or 2001 when Brown and Lo Duca were teammates with the Dodgers. Brown called Radomski and they spoke about human growth hormone for one or two hours. Radomski said that Brown was “very knowledgeable” about human growth hormone. Brown was placed on the disabled list in June 2001 with a neck injury and in July 2001 with an elbow injury. After Brown got hurt, he called Radomski again and asked for human growth hormone. Radomski said that he sent human growth hormone to Brown by overnight mail and called Brown several times to make sure he had received it. Brown finally returned Radomski’s call and confirmed he had received it. Soon thereafter, Radomski returned home one day to find an express delivery package from Brown on his doorstep, wet from the rain. When he opened it, he found that it contained $8,000 in cash.

Steamboat They bought the Steroids, but no one can prove they took them??? Well I’m betting that if a person pays $1300 to $10,000, for Steroids or HGH, they aren’t going to pour them down the sink.

Congress is already calling for hearing on the Baseball Steroid scandal.

Sigh…Haren to the D-backs. Would sure liked to have the Braves get him.

By McFann

December 15, 2007 5:19 PM | Link to this

To be honest, Lew, I don’t think to highly of myself on this blog. I’m just here to defend McCann, but other than that, you guys could get along without me.

Sorry, but I don’t know who those people are that you listen to for music.

I have no idea what McCann had for dinner last night!! I told you twice already, I’ve never met the man!! How can I know what someone ate for dinner if I have yet to even say “hello” to him?

By Matt Berliner

December 15, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this

Oasis…STILL is a great band. Oregon_braves…where are you from in Oregon? Im from Toledo..on the coast by Newport…but live in San Francisco now.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 5:28 PM | Link to this

Just got back from the gym, watching KU play Ohio (not St., but just Ohio) and it’s 31-11 midway through first half.

Anyway, realized soon after I left home that I left three of my favorite bands from last 20 years off my list: Pogues, Radiohead, and Uncle Tupelo and its offshoots, Wilco and Son Volt.

By Matt Berliner

December 15, 2007 5:29 PM | Link to this

Heathen Chemistry and Don’t Believe the Truth by Oasis were stellar albums but American radio and most of the people have sadly already written off Oasis. Their loss.

Oasis b-sides are probly the best of anyones b-sides to date.

Oasis will be back with another album in 2008.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 5:33 PM | Link to this

Matt Berliner, I just named what I thought were the best bands in straight-ahead rock history — Led Zep, Stones, Beatles, The Who, and added U2 to that list because I think their body of work will stand up like those other bands, even if they’re not as influential as those bands were.

But after that, I was just naming bands I love the most in the contemporary era, not pretending to be the arbiter of who’s great and who’s not. So after those five, it was just my taste. I know few others would probably have the Pogues on their list of great bands since the CLASSIC ROCK (and by that I don’t mean REM and U2, but Doors, Led Zep, Who, Eagles, etc) era.

I like Oasis, but wouldn’t put them on my list of 10 or so bands of the past 25 years of so. just my taste, though. I don’t have Pearl Jam on that list, either, and I have Pogues on it. Does that mean Pogues are regarded as a better band? Hardly. But I like them more.

By FJR

December 15, 2007 5:36 PM | Link to this

yeah, I went to England a few years back and one of my friends who never really got my Oasis obsession (and was himself a huge Radiohead fan) was floored when he realized that even today Oasis is considered a better rock band than Radiohead in the UK. We went to a pub that spontaneously burst into Live Forever and heas just like “its like some sort of bizarro world where you get to pick everybody’s favorite band.”

By Calvin

December 15, 2007 5:44 PM | Link to this

Pettitte just confirmed that he used HGH to recover from an elbow injury he had back in 2002. Looks bad for Clemens…if it didn’t before.

Story

By Matt

December 15, 2007 5:49 PM | Link to this

DOB, I don’t post very often (you responded once about Brett Favre) and I have made it clear that I really appreciate and enjoy this blog. That’s certainly still the case. This question isn’t meant to attack and regardless of the answer I’m still going to check this blog frequently, but the music lists or whatever they are have piqued my curiosity about something. What is the reasoning behind disallowing the political discussions of the past because “this is not the place for it,” but allowing/encouraging the music discussion? Merely just curious as to what the reasoning is or if there is any. Not really trying to attack anyone, simply curious.

By JC FROM UT

December 15, 2007 6:00 PM | Link to this

DOB: any word on Damian Miller?

By NCBravesFan

December 15, 2007 6:05 PM | Link to this

@Calvin - I read the Pettitte story posted on the AJC web site. I gotta give the guy propers for stepping up and acknowledging his role.

I think he’s been honest and straightforward, laid out the facts and he left it up to people to judge for themselves.

Quite a contrast from the Rocket, isn’t it?

@Matt - I’m not much of a fan of the music oft cited on this blog, and DOB is more than able to answer your question more eloquently than I … but my take is that music brings people together, and politics tears people apart. Sad, but true.

By A.J.

December 15, 2007 6:17 PM | Link to this

Matt:

I will take DOBs question and answer it as if it were my own:

To put it quite bluntly, the reason we don’t talk about politics isn’t that this is a baseball blog and we only talk about baseball.

Politics aren’t allowed because political discussions with no checks against them, will always, in every single situation, get out of hand.

Consider how people who are close friends can get so angry at each other about politics. Think about that compared to people who have no reason to be nice to each other, and people who are in the position of carrying out long, idiotically mean spirited discussions without that nasty little side effect of losing a real friend.

People get p** off at each other enough about baseball, no need to bring in politics too.

Politics will invariably at some point take over the blog, whereas things like discussing music and movies, etc, basically just fills in when news is slow.

I promise, no matter how big the music discussion gets, it will always subside when baseball gets big news again.

Not always so for politics.

Plus, DOB just loves music, and it’s a chance for he and others to discuss such things with people, some of who’s opinions he may respect.

By Oregon_Braves

December 15, 2007 6:18 PM | Link to this

Matt B - I’m actually from NW Florida and lived in Alabama for several years, but relocated out here a few years back. My family and I are in Wilsonville, which is about 20 miles south of Portland.

We’ve been to Newport. Nice scenery. The whole coast is just gorgeous. But it is a coast, NOT a beach. Very different from the shores of Fort Walton Beach that I remember so well.

By Chi-town braves fan

December 15, 2007 6:22 PM | Link to this

DOB-any new names come up in the search for a CF or backup catcher?
I might add Rush and Aerosmith to your list. Just my 2cents;)

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 6:26 PM | Link to this

Matt, NCBravesFan put it quite succinctly. I can’t believe you’d even have to ask that, actually.

Music discussions are fun, good-natured, and not divisive. Discussions of abortion, politics and people’s lifestyles and polarizing, by nature, and inevitably dissolve into namecalling or a gang mentality that makes a lot of people uncomfortable.

If you can’t understand how the discussion of movies, music, TV shows, BBQ and sports is very different than discussions of politics, well, then I don’t know what to tell you.

By Lew

December 15, 2007 6:26 PM | Link to this

McFann-What are you? Twelve? You haven’t heard of Queen, Molly Hatchet, Led Zeppelin or Emerson, Lake and Palmer? Besides, even given you might not be up on early metal/hard rock/Classic Rock, Progressive Rock or Christmas Rock, you should have heard of Jason Isbell, who just left the Drive By Truckers (you know, from Athens?) and the Decemberists. My God, Dude, they are totally right now.

OregonBraves-Yes, I have Sonic Temple as well as the Love CD and my all time favorite Cult album, Electric in my collection. I also have their Beyond Good and Evil which came out a few years ago, maybe around 05. It’s good, but the new one is the best since the old days. The Grinch sent me a good Cult DVD for my Birthday a few months ago-newly released live performances from their heyday. Has some great songs like L’il Devil, Edie and Wild Hearted Son. Unfortunately, it doesn’t have King Contrary Man or Outlaw from Electric.

DOB-Talking to Don from Ella Guru, it turns out we saw Queen/Thin Lizzy the same night at the Hollywood Sportatorium in Hollywood, Fla.. I’m one of the lucky ones-got to see Queen on two tours, The Sheer Heart Attack and The Day AT the Races tours. Mercury could do it live as well as in the studio.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 6:30 PM | Link to this

Thanks, AJ, well said.

And by the way, I love talking politics in my private life, with people I know. I just don’t like fighting over politics with people I don’t know.

So that’s how we’re going to try to keep things here. It’s worked quite well so far.

By McFann

December 15, 2007 6:40 PM | Link to this

Well, Lew, I’m a little older than twelve.

Come to think of it, I have heard of Queen…

By doc

December 15, 2007 6:44 PM | Link to this

DOB, didnt see REM on any list but may have overlooked it along with the B-52’s. good solid stuff. as far as classic got to go with eric clapton and CREAM somewhere in there. heard them at chastain in 1969, about half empty too. guess atlanta took a little time to get big league. radiohead along with jimi HENDRIX rock.

By Matt

December 15, 2007 6:51 PM | Link to this

Wow…I didn’t think anyone would actually pay attention to that, but reading your responses was interesting. Obviously, I am not interested in the music talk and I do simply skip over it, that’s fine, I have no problem with that actually…I’m not asking anyone to stop. I am interested in politics a lot, however, I skimmed over the political discussions that were on this blog in the past, so I’m not in favor of encouraging that either. I was just curious. I didn’t think the devisive nature of politics would be an issue because I didn’t think this blog was particularily concerned with division or unification. There’s some pretty good disagreement about the various moves the Braves have made. DOB isn’t afraid to rip people either, which is cool, I enjoy it and I just got ripped in his response[“can’t believe you’d even have to ask”], but I don’t consider that argumentative style (as much as I enjoy it) “unification”. Thus, I didn’t think unification/division could really be the reason, but if indeed it is, then that’s good, I’m glad to know now. Thanks.

By doc

December 15, 2007 6:53 PM | Link to this

matt, whether you accept it or not folks will hide behind their silly monikers or put up inflammatory names as the issues about politics gear up. they also say some things they would never say to someone’s face. most of the time i can ignore it like someone passing gas and consider them having a bad day, but after a while if that is all that fills the room i gotta leave. probably dob considers some good folks might take the high road and leave the blog as well if things were to deteriorate to that degree. just maybe that defeats the fun and purpose of this entity.

By Matt

December 15, 2007 7:03 PM | Link to this

I’d like to reemphasize something: I’m not going to and did not in the past participate or read political conversation on this blog and consequently I don’t care if it is allowed (actually, if given the choice I’d probably suggest it not be included because it makes the blog more difficult for my computer to load the blog) nor do I care if the music stuff goes on…I just wanted to see what the reasoning was.

By NCBravesFan

December 15, 2007 7:13 PM | Link to this

One other really good reason I can think of, with elections coming up next year … this blog by virtue of its visibility and high readership levels would be a natural target of campaign lackeys who are trying to peddle their nonsense. It would get really ugly really fast if the political pros got involved.

By McFann

December 15, 2007 7:33 PM | Link to this

Yeah. Good grief!! Let’s not drag politics into this. All the talk about ‘roids and such was dull enough!!

Oh and, hey, Lew, watch your language! Don’t you know the Second Commandment?

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 7:50 PM | Link to this

Doc, I had REM among my favorite 10 bands, or whatever number I listed. I just don’t think they belong in that first category I listed, which was simply the greatest straight-ahead rock bands in history — Led Zep, the Who, Stones and Beatles, in whatever order. And I agreed later with Oregon-Brave that U2 could legitimately be included in that list, which I’d add is because of their excellence and their massive popularity. (Gotta have both to be in that list, in my opinion. As for my own favorite bands, I couldn’t care less how many albums they sold or how popular they are/were.)

Hey, it’s obviously subjective, totally so. Personally, those aren’t my favorite five bands, by any stretch (Led Zep and U2 are both in my top 10, probably both in top five), but I was just trying to be unbiased with that particular list. Then I got into my personal favorites, and REM is definitely near the top of my list. No question. Love that band to death.

By Jared

December 15, 2007 8:05 PM | Link to this

Music discussions are fun, good-natured, and not divisive.

Johnny Cash isn’t any good.

By Selig is a genius

December 15, 2007 8:07 PM | Link to this

  1. In the wake of the Mitchell report, insist on a drug policy Fehr won’t accept. Make sure it’s too draconian for Fehr to accept.
  2. Union strikes over it, underestimating the ire of fans.
  3. Owners fire all the players and replace them with minor-leaguers or others who agree to draconian policy and new financial arrangement between players-owners (salary caps, etc.)
  4. Fans come out to support the game with the new cast of players, as its integrity is now completely restored.
  5. Union breaks as players start to cross the line and agree to the new terms individually, so as to have some sort of career.
  6. Owners win!

The Mitchell report didn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know. All it did was publicize it and make the players look bad. So why have it commissioned?

By EP

December 15, 2007 8:12 PM | Link to this

I guess that bat throwing incident by Clemens in the playoffs now can be attribured to roid rage. Makes sense to me.

By R1U

December 15, 2007 8:16 PM | Link to this

U-2 has been playing the same riff FOREVER!!! Get a new riff already!!!! And who cares about doping in sports. Entertainers use stimulants or depressants whatever…does that mean George Jones isn’t great…Beatles…people get compensated for the extravagant things they can do with their talents. Jack London, Kerouac, Melville…oh please stop the B.S. It is what it is. The human experience is full of examples. What is a shame is that unless one is totally off the charts…he/she can go totally unrecognized and un-appreciated. Let’s look at what is really going on in this country and the world, Dave. It is precisely the distratctions we employ that allow the truly wicked leadership? in this country to devour OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES and relegate us to cower in fear and doubt…now what about those fascists being exposed. PRINT THIS!!!

By kreedham

December 15, 2007 8:22 PM | Link to this

Dave I thought you might have mentioned Levon Helm but I missed it. Sorry for the repeat.

Rock N Roll HOF as we know it, is a joke. This year there was a poor list of nominees. At least the ones that got in were the right ones (from that list). I only think Mellancamp and the Ventures deserved it. DC5 made it, probably shouldn’t have. Madonna, great artist, but not RNR. Afrikan Bambatta and Beastie Boys have talent, didn’t make it, and are not RNR. Chic (1 hit) didn’t and shouldn’t be nominated again.

Seems that many deserving are left out such as Rush, Genesis, Jethro Tull (great at the Tab last week), and others.

Who do you think should be in that’s not?

By Yars

December 15, 2007 8:26 PM | Link to this

Soundgarden has to be included as one of the greatest rock bands of the last 25 years. I wouldn’t put them ahead of Guns & Roses, but definitely ahead of Motley Crue. As for KJ, the Braves would be fools to trade him. They need to build around players like KJ, Frenchy, McCann, & Yunel. Prado is expendable, unless he is given a chance in spring training to win a utility infield spot.

By Lew

December 15, 2007 8:45 PM | Link to this

McFann-Just what in the world are you talking about? What language is it that I should watch? As far as commandments-#2 has to do with graven images. I’m an artist-the images are kind of a part of it and some would ask you where my talent comes from. If perhaps, you mean I used the word God and you think it was in vain-#3.

By McFann

December 15, 2007 9:54 PM | Link to this

Hey, Lew, I did use God’s name in vain!! And guess what? That’s against the SECOND Commandment. I’ve got it right here in front of me, half-wit!!

Baltimore Catechism No. 2 Question 224:

“What is the second commandment of God?

The second commandment of God is: Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.”

So there!! Good night!!

By chrisklob

December 15, 2007 10:02 PM | Link to this

McFann, Religion is one of a very few topics that are not allowed here. Period.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 10:04 PM | Link to this

kreedhman, I liked seeing Leonard Cohen get it, and I disagree with you on Mellencamp. His recent work nothwithstanding, I think he deserves it.

Didn’t know Beasties were up, but I think they’re certainly qualified — check the list, there’s a whole lot of acts in there that aren’t rock&roll, but were either strongly influenced by rock or had an impact on rock or whatever. Not how I would’ve done it, but now that they’ve let in so many others who are far less “rock” than the Beasties, they should go in. They’ve got the catalog for it, and I personally have always dug them.

Madonna? Come on. Beasties are infinitely more “rock” than her.

As for who belongs in who’s not in, I don’t even have the complete list, and really don’t care enough to start checking ‘em off. I mean, it’s just not that important to me.

Another thing: The Country Music Hall of Fame in Nashville is far more enjoyable and interesting than the Rock Hall in Cleveland. Been to both, and I liked the country one far more. They’ve got everything from Hank Williams and Cash and Hag to Elvis, the Allmans and Skynyrd. And much more exhibit space and interactive stuff. Got one of Elvis’ gold-plated Cadillacs in there, pretty sweet.

And R1U, is George Jones great? Damn straight.

By David O'Brien

December 15, 2007 10:10 PM | Link to this

by the way, Kreedham, Chic had “Good Times,” “Le Freak” and “I Want Your Love,” that I remember as hits. Probably had a few others. But you’re right — not at all deseriving of mention for R&R Hall. Silly they’d even be up for nomination….

Yars, I’m with you on Soundgarden. Great band. I think Alice In Chains is even better, though, from that grunge era. Put on the Alice “Jar of Flies” today, and it still sounds as unique and great as ever….

R1U, almost forgot to ask: You said “Print this” in all caps, of course. Print it where, exactly? Bottom of my next Braves story in the paper, maybe? On my Christmas cards, perhaps?

By Fred Secunda

December 15, 2007 10:12 PM | Link to this

I really think Edmonds would have been a good fit for Atlanta. He’s lost a step or two over the past few years, but if he were platooning with Anderson we could have gotten a lot out of him in my opinion.

By Steve McP

December 15, 2007 10:16 PM | Link to this

What about Talking Heads?

By Steve McP

December 15, 2007 10:18 PM | Link to this

Oh and Squeeze

By Bryan

December 15, 2007 10:18 PM | Link to this

Glad to see REM so well represented … i listened to Fables of the reconstruction while making dinner … SOOOOOOOOO good …

Not sure if i have said this before here … but Chronic Town … i can’t think of a single band whose first five songs (and this was legitimately their first five) could be so good … this was their first release ever and everything they have done since can only equal … not eclipse!

Dave, your missing radiohead on your list of up and comings (its funny, it seems like we do this on the blog every off season … )

Here is a good tie in … how nice was it to have Tex come in and have his intro music be “All Along the Watchtower.”

I talked to him after a game and he said he would rather have the dylan version playing … but he knew it would make the pitcher crap in his pants… and then the pitcher would beam him in the face

He told me next year he is going to come out to either “idiot wind” or “it takes a lot to laugh it takes a train to cry”

By STRETCH

December 15, 2007 10:31 PM | Link to this

The last time i checked or heard, the Bravos were saying that they had some extra money to throw around? When?

Look, for example, at the pitching in the National League West. Arizona now complements Brandon Webb, the NL’s best pitcher, with Haren, who could take that mantle.

San Diego counters with Jake Peavy and Chris Young, San Francisco with Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, Noah Lowry and, oh, yeah, its $126 million investment, Barry Zito.

Can’t forget the Dodgers, with a rotation of Brad Penny, Derek Lowe and Chad Billingsley.

Ditto for Colorado, which won the NL behind Jeff Francis, Ubaldo Jimenez and Franklin Morales this year.

Third place again next season.

By chrisklob

December 15, 2007 10:45 PM | Link to this

STRETCH, payroll next year is going to be about $9-10m more than last year. That’s a 12% or so increase. Doesn’t get us up there with the Yankees just yet, but it’s going in the right direction, unlike the last few years.

Next year there will be quite a bit of money coming off payroll. Hampton and Glavine will probably both be gone freeing up $23m. That’s real money right there.

Oh yeah, why don’t you go ask Sabean how that Zito deal is working out for him so far?

By Steamboat

December 15, 2007 10:49 PM | Link to this

Hey STRECTH, add the new guy, Kuroda, and also Jason Schmidt coming back for the Dodgers. That could be a pretty good staff.

Thing is, except the Padres, the Braves had a better team era than any of those teams last year… they may close ground, or they may not. You overlook - and I think Braves fans take for granted - that Smoltz and Hudson is a pretty impressive top two in its own right.

I’m not a huge fan of the Glavine signing, but that’s okay. If he delivers what’s expected - 180-200 innings of decent pitching, the Braves pitching will be just fine. Our ‘pen will be lights out.

By Lew

December 15, 2007 11:04 PM | Link to this

McFann-ChirsKlob is right. The subject is not discussed on this forum. However, you little moron, go check the Book Of Exodus-The Source-and see just how wrong you and the Baltimore Catechism are.

By Jared

December 15, 2007 11:05 PM | Link to this

Well, the Braves keep saying they want to build an elite staff like they had in the 1990’s.

Smoltz, Hudson, Glavine, James and Hampton/Reyes/Jurrjens/Bennett is good, no-doubt. But elite? No.

Haren would have made it elite. Bedard would make it elite. I don’t know about Santana (money) or Blanton (just not ace material), but two guys (Haren and Bedard) who are under control for awhile were avilable (and one still is), and it seems the Braves don’t have any will to even try and obtain them. I know they don’t have any blue-chip, MLB-ready prospects like Phil Hughes, but they could at least pretend to be trying to build that elite staff we all want to see.

By slinkyB

December 15, 2007 11:34 PM | Link to this

Why are no teams high on Bartolo Colon? He had electric stuff a couple of years ago. I know shoulder or arm problems sort of made him ineffective last year, but I’m surprised no one has picked up on him.

By BossLady

December 15, 2007 11:57 PM | Link to this

Rock bands I know from the “hey days” were Three Dog Night, Grand Funk Railroad and Chicago. They were by far the best. The Beatles and Stones I only liked so much. You would have had to be there in the day of the “OLD” rock era. Of course I don’t really want to reveal my age guys.

By R1U

December 16, 2007 12:13 AM | Link to this

Print it anywhere Dave…the bottom line is where there is lots of $$$there is lots of action and it isn’t always pristine! How people want to compromise themselves/health/ethics, etc. is their business. Dictating morality has never worked…check out the Declaration of Independence…we used to live in a free society. Audiences want the biggest bang for their buck. Capitalism is designed with a compete to eat component…and getting/winning the most toys. There are no rules only the strongest and daringest survive in the end game. So again I say…the haves will do whatever it takes to have and have more…as long as the cash machine is rolling, it remains a gambit without conscience and the only accountability is the V at the end!!!

Putting me in your Xmas card would n’t be bad…I won’t charge for Intellectual Property Rights…I don’t live in lack, but abundance…well as much abundance as the present regime allows:-) Peace, R1U

By BossLady

December 16, 2007 12:17 AM | Link to this

True believers in whatever faith do not have to go on blogs, shout out religious phrases, they just live accordingingly and have their hearts in the right place.

David Bowie famous son “Angie” is probably one of the best and Dream Weaver is a historical song. Seems like it has be out all my life or something. Whatever I’m doing I stop and give those two RESPECT.

“IN THE YEAR 2525” we won’t remember any of this anyway. Take it easy.

By doc

December 16, 2007 12:18 AM | Link to this

dob, thanks for the response. i figured the rem folks were there somewhere. not as good in the long run as radiohead but were huge in their span of musical repertoire. listen when you get as old as i am (first attended concert in 1965 in j’ville for james brown) then you will have to consider top 100, heh heh. still love all kinds of music but just cant keep up with you in time listening or money expended. i assure you i tried it for a while.

a confession is that as you grow older you may just find yourself into a different beat of music just to cure the ails. as a ex-surgeon now practicing acupuncture i am more into the music that soothes and serves to heal the soul than the one that depletes it. peace bro and keep the hits coming!

By Yars

December 16, 2007 12:19 AM | Link to this

DOB……I thank you for mentioning Alice In Chains. How can any rock fan forget them? In my opinion, Dirt was their best studio album. Remember the song, Would? Such a great rock song. Reminds me of high school, & you! I graduated from South Broward High, in Hollywood, FL in 1996. I live in west TN now. I remember you, DOB! Florida Marlins writer! How the years have just flew by, eh? In any case, keep up the good work. I appreciate it how you interact with Atlanta Braves fans. Giving us up to the minute updates on our favorite team. People like you are extremely rare. Why aren’t you on the Sports Reporters? I recall you mentioning once on a blog you caught Depeche Mode in concert in south FL in the early 1990’s? Was it 1993? They played Miami Arena during their Devotional ‘93 tour. Let me say this DOB, I respect your taste in music. You have introduced me to a lot of bands over the last 1+ years. I still need to check out the new Hives album.

By BossLady

December 16, 2007 12:26 AM | Link to this

Everything used to be. I used to be a hippie now I am a yuppie. Inside, where my CEO does not know and my staff can’t see I am still a hippie at heart. However, it takes capitalism to have a good livelihood in these times. You can only live from paycheck to paycheck so long and when you realize your education intelligence can make you 1/2 way wealthy, why waste it? Be for real

By PattheCatinSaudi

December 16, 2007 12:46 AM | Link to this

DOB,

Just had to throw in a couple of bands: The Allman Brothers Little Feat Graham Parker and the Rumour (with Brinsley Schawtz) SRV and Double Trouble SCOTS

By BossLady

December 16, 2007 12:50 AM | Link to this

James Brown concert in the Atlanta City Auditorium was packed to capacity and rocking all night. For those that did not know Atlanta way back then, it is where Ga. State is now. That whole area was called the Municipal district. A large amount of Pubs and Bistros were located back up to Peachtree and Piedmont which led to 10th, 14th called the “Strip” and on to Piedmont Park. The Georgian Terrace Hotel and The Fox held huge gatherings and no robberies, murders, carjacking and kidnapping ever happened to anyone. Ya know Make Love & Peace not War & Violence

By Greg in TN

December 16, 2007 12:52 AM | Link to this

Evening friends and neighbors…

Much has been said on the Braves/MIB blog about the Mitchell report. I went back and read A Bartlett Giamatti’s press release on August 24 1989 and I do see some parallels.

Giamatti said, in part, “I say this so that there may be no doubt about where I stand or why I stand there. I believe baseball is a beautiful and exciting game, loved by millions - I among them - and I believe baseball is an important, enduring American institution. It must assert and aspire to the highest principles - of integrity, of professionalism of performance, of fair play within its rules. It will come as no surprise that like any institution composed of human beings, this institution will not always fulfill its highest aspirations. I know of no earthly institution that does. But this one, because it is so much a part of our history as a people and because it has such a purchase on our national soul, has an obligation to the people for whom it is played - to its fans and well-wishers - to strive for excellence in all things and to promote the highest ideals.”

Giamatti further remarked, “…while there will be debate and dissent about this or that or another occurrence on or off the field, and while the game’s nobler parts will always be enmeshed in the human frailties of those who, whatever their role, have stewardship of this game, let there be no doubt or dissent about our goals for baseball or our dedication to it. Nor about our vigilance and vigor - and patience - in protecting the game from blemish or stain or disgrace.”

IMO, baseball lost more than a commissioner the day Giamatti passed in September 1989, they lost a very eloquent and noble friend of the game.

Baseball will move on from this and will be stronger because of it. This sport has a knack of doing so and it’s resiliency is one of the things that makes this sport so appealing to me.

But this sport has a mess to clean up and the responsibility lies with two groups that until the last couple collective bargaining agreements had tremendous problems finding common ground and working through issues without a work stoppage. There are some that look at the last few days and have advance the opinion that this isn’t much more than stealing signs, scuffing baseballs and the like.

Respectfully, I beg to differ.

Folks, as fans, we deserve to go to the ballpark every night expecting a level playing field. We’ll likely never get a chance for that, but it’s something this sport and it’s fans deserve, and it’s something we should work for, that ideal.

I’m not naive enough to think that in the period of time from 1920 until the 1980s that it was utopia in baseball and there was no cheating, fixing or drugs involved. The Mitchell report is just that, a report on the steroid era of baseball. He had very little help from the players and the union, it isn’t proof that would hold up in any court, but I also believe it’s vital to find out as much information about this era as possible.

I think the price for Haren turned out to be much steeper than many here realized it would be. The Snakes gave up quite a bit to get Oakland’s latest gun and got Qualls, Burke and Gutierrez from the Astros.

60 days until pitchers and catchers report to Dark Star.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 16, 2007 12:54 AM | Link to this

R1U Please read the history books before evoking the wisdom of our founding fathers. You will be enlighten by facts and not assumptions. Not meaning to be mean, only that the facts don’t always support your arguments when it comes to American history.

Now, if you were to say that greed is a basic human nature exhibited by many persons of all cultures, I would tend to agree with your argument.

By doc

December 16, 2007 1:04 AM | Link to this

best travel album, little feat, waiting for columbus (got a rocket in my pocket lookin for a socket) followed closely by peter frampton live. throw in some eagles best hits, it just never ever gets old. listened to them cross country along with a little stevie miller band singing loud, squeeze them peaches and shake them trees. saw miller and frampton sitting in old denver stadium for a bandfest called colorado sundays under the sun on a, no doubt, sunday.

By BossLady

December 16, 2007 1:10 AM | Link to this

The O’Jays, “Ship Ahoy” describes the whole story.

Men, women and babies coming to the land of liberty, whose life design’s alreay made they’re just wanting to be saved.

People around the world come to America to live a prosperous life.

By uga-brave

December 16, 2007 2:55 AM | Link to this

lew,

i know you like debating people, but when talking to MCFANN, i hope you know he or she is a child. if not i hope he or she has a rich relative. besides me there is a chance, that he or she is the the most obtuse blogger around. sorry mcfann, i love your passion. hey ilove brian, he is a throwback. just dont debate lew. he is a wise hippy who lives for arguments.

i always read lew’s posts. i dont always agree with them but i find him somewhat intelligent.

hope all is well in vermont lew.

you are are a DAMN GOOD DAWG.

By uga-brave

December 16, 2007 3:26 AM | Link to this

well i cut myself off but GIL has at least watched some of our so called prospects in richmond. as far as i am concerned he is our conduit to prospective talent. he thinks lillibridge has craig bighio (SPELLED THAT WRONG) talent. my point is would you of traded him B. jones and james or reyes for HAREN?

i would of done it in a heartbeat. well a least the mets did not get him. as COACH, always reminds us baseball is about pitching and defense. i agree. our rotation will be better by default this year. the keys are of course glavine being circa glavine of 1999, and hampton. if those two guys chime in we will be fine.

By Braveheart

December 16, 2007 5:53 AM | Link to this

I can’t keep up with the rest of ya when it comes to music but I have not seen anyone mention Creedence yet. CCR has to be one of the greatest rock and roll bands there ever was. Their music are timeless classics that span generations. I have never been in a bar where the mood in the bar was not immediately altered by having a Creedence song put on the jukebox. Almost everyone from the yuppie to the hippie to the biker to the redneck to the stockbroker to the 5, 15, 25 year old to the 55, 65, 75 year old can nod their heads and mouth the words to most of the lyrics and they all seem just a little bit happier than they were 5 minutes prior. It’s just great American music. The problem is that when you listen to 15 CCR songs in a row, you often start realizing you are listening to the same freaking song over and over again that just has different lyrics. Or at least it can start to feel that way. Still love ‘em anyway.

By Nolie

December 16, 2007 5:54 AM | Link to this

talent. my point is would you of traded him B. jones and james or reyes for HAREN?uga

Yes I would have since he is under contract for several more years. the current team without any of those three prospects(and no matter what anyone says they are still only prospects, except for James who is a bottom of the order pitcher) would have a very decent chance at getting to the WS with Haren added to the cast.

By BayAreaSteve

December 16, 2007 5:55 AM | Link to this

No posts for a couple hours. Thought I’d attempt… well… something.

Please, enough of these suggestions of platooning two left handed center fielders. Even with Bobby’s (donk for Robert) infatuation with the platoon, he wouldn’t do it with hitters from the same side.

And a special note to BravesFan79, who is now using pinch, instead of pitch hitter: thank you.

By BayAreaSteve

December 16, 2007 6:40 AM | Link to this

My timing impeccable, as always. Two minutes late.

Braveheart, nice to see you up. I’ll take this opportunity to mention that I appreciate your posts. I’m always impressed with your arguments and your research, whether I agree or not. If only I weren’t so lazy, I could do the same.

Your defense of Chuck James comes to mind, and I wholeheartedly agree with your analysis. I wish you would do something similar for Kelly Johnson. I don’t think enough here realize how good he was last year.

The other of your topics that occurs to me is the ownership. Your argument of both sides of the issue was perfect, and both sides could be true. We’ll find out soon enough.

By ncscoots

December 16, 2007 7:25 AM | Link to this

I swore to myself that I had said my piece on the Haren trade, but, if Shaun is gonna act as mouthpiece for Dayn Perry’s moronic cluelessness, I can’t hardly let that go.

“solid-to-great” prospects? Gonzalez is “the best positional prospect in baseball”? Does Perry even READ scouting reports, ferchrissake? In no baseball universe inhabited by sane people do those characterizations hold water. Shaun, I know you, and you know better.

Gonzalez can play now, and he’s an OF; and Anderson can probably make the big club now, at the back of the rotation. A Braves’ package of prospects could have provided more ceiling, especially on the pitching side, but would have been less near-ready. But the Braves could have put together a comparable (or better) package, without disrupting the plans for 2008 OR gutting the farm.

But there are a hundred things that could have mitigated against such a trade, and I understand that. Plus I don’t have any idea if the Braves were in play on the guy or not. I’m just another guy on the outside looking in.

The thing that sticks in my craw is that, after reconciling to the fact that it would take a farm-killing deal to get Haren and therefore was not worth it to the Braves, I see him go for not the sun, the moon, and the stars, but for Pluto and a few asteroids. It just makes me want to spit, that’s all.

By ncgary

December 16, 2007 7:54 AM | Link to this

i second that scoots

By ncscoots

December 16, 2007 8:00 AM | Link to this

And a final note on the DBacks’ 2008 prospects (Perry makes them the NL favorite, and WS caliber):

They hit .250 last year and scored 700 runs, and logged the most wins in the league while having a negative run differential. Now, fellas, old Pythagoras might take a day off every once in a while, but he usually balances out the scales sooner or later. With a vengeance.

So, I wouldn’t count on the same good karma surfacing for the DBacks 2 years in a row. If they don’t hit a bunch better in 2008, all the pitching in the universe won’t help them.

By Braveheart

December 16, 2007 8:03 AM | Link to this

Bay Area Steve Thanks man. I don’t often agree with my arguments either. Sometimes, I just say things depending upon my mood or something I have come across or sometimes I just want to play the devil’s advocate role for the day which often means I wear the dunce cap and become the fool for the day. Or sometimes I’m just wrong.

By Braveheart

December 16, 2007 8:08 AM | Link to this

10Greg thanks for the Giamatti quotes. Baseball did indeed lose an eloquent man when he passed. I can’t help but wonder how much better off and respected baseball would be right now if he was the frontman instead of Bud Selig who apparently has no clue about how to properly present himself or the game. There have been so many moments over the past decade where an eloquent man who had a regal nature to him could have made baseball look much better. Selig was not that man. He comes across as a clueless buffoon and as a result baseball and the way baseball has been managed comes across to the general public as incompetent clueless buffoonery.

By Braveheart

December 16, 2007 8:13 AM | Link to this

I am always amazed when I read quotes from Bart Giamatti and then I watch his son act in movies. His son is one of the greatest character actors around who steals almost every movie he is in but you would never imagine, based upon the perception of both, that they are related.

By nOLIE

December 16, 2007 8:30 AM | Link to this

The thing that sticks in my craw is that, after reconciling to the fact that it would take a farm-killing deal to get Haren and therefore was not worth it to the Braves, I see him go for not the sun, the moon, and the stars, but for Pluto and a few asteroids. It just makes me want to spit, that’s all.ncscoots

nice imagery, but I think you are showing a little home bias. As Huckabay said…there is no such thing as a pitching prospect. and it’s been often proven in the Braves’ farm system. over the years there have been literally dozens of young braves’ pitching prospects that have been highly hyped, even by BBA, but almost none of them have ever made a real impression in the bigs. at this point any GM who bought a buncha low-level pitchers from the Braves in exchange for a proven talent like Haren would have to be nuts. The Braves have done well with position players thus a likely market for Lillibridge and Jones perhaps James and JoJo. but A or AA pitchers, prolly ain’t gonna be enough interest to float a deal for a guy like Haren. maybe Blanton, but likely not Haren or Santana. especially since Billy is prolly still feeling a little burned from the Huddy deal ;-)

By Marty

December 16, 2007 8:42 AM | Link to this

I hate to break it to you Clemens lovers, but when one person says that HE personally injected Roger Clemens with steroids, that is neither “hearsay” nor “circumstantial” evidence. It is direct testimony by a person testifying about his OWN actions. Frankly, canceled checks and receipts are far more circumstantial by their nature, with the possible exception of one such piece of paper signed in what is obviously Clemens’ own hand with the notation, “for illegal steroids.”

Sorry, folks, but as far as the allegations levied against Clemens in the Mitchell Report, the only real question here is whether you believe the man who claims to have injected Roger with steroids. When you combine his testimony with the actual circumstantial evidence we’ve had for years — an amazing, unlikely resurgence after Clemens was in his 40s, the change in size, etc. — my own personal burden of proof has been met. Since Clemens likely will never be charged with anything criminally (it’s not even clear to me that anything he did was illegal when he did it), that’s all that really matters — whether each individual fan, member of the media, player, etc., believes that a particular player used performance enhancing substances to excess.

Sorry, Clemens apologists, but the evidence against him (unlike the evidence against most of the people named in the Report) is pretty strong. With Clemens’ former strength and conditioning coach telling us that he personally injected Clemens with steroids, I find it believable that Clemens did, in fact, use steroids. If you think that the evidence used in most criminal prosecutions is better than this — eyewitness testimony from a personal of questionable moral character with a direct interest in his testimony — then you’re flat-out wrong.

My only hope now is that people will direct the same well-deserved contempt that they have for Bonds towards Clemens as well.

By Mike from Holland

December 16, 2007 8:50 AM | Link to this

Dave, First I’d like to say that I enjoy your reporting. Question: On an earlier post you mentioned that the Braves were going to anounce 6 year free agent signings last week. I haven’t seen any anouncement anywhere. What happened?

By rich brave

December 16, 2007 8:51 AM | Link to this

Anybody gonna’ be watching the ‘08 Braves for individuals that are leaner. America is not immune to assuming if a player drops a few pounds and his head shrinks a few hat sizes he’s a former doper. Gee, all the users I’ve known LOST weight. Something about being more interested in the high and less interested in eating. But HGH evidently has the reverse effect. So we can all safely assume any of our affable, fun-loving heros who drop a few are off the stuff. Right?? Assume. What’s that old saying about that particular word?? Frankly, I don’t know what to think, but I’m gonna’ be watching with interest.

By George Mitchell

December 16, 2007 8:56 AM | Link to this

Further circumstantial proof has come to my attention: Koby, Kody, and Kory Clemens are really named Henry, George, and Harry Clemens.

By George Mitchell

December 16, 2007 9:28 AM | Link to this

Brian McCann has been a Catcher with the Atlanta Braves since the 2005 season. McCann has been an All Star in the 2005 and 2006 seasons.

Sara Lee said that Macay McBride introduced McCann to her in 2003. Thereafter, Sara Lee sold cupcakes, ice cream, and pies to McCann on several occasions. McCann consistently paid by check. Because McCann was young and not making that much money, Sara Lee said she never charged McCann more than the cost of the ingredients.

According to McCann, McBride never pushed any pastries onto him. McCann sought McBride’s advice on how to become fatter. McBride responded by educating McCann on various eating methods and the use of potato chips. McCann had never eaten potato chips before, so he wanted to talk further with McBride about educating himself on using use them properly so as to become fatter. So, he raised the subject with McBride. McCann said that McBride was knowledgeable about donuts; McBride described to McCann the types of donuts he could use to get bigger. McCann’s body underwent significant changes, causing McCann to remark “you can’t even compare it.” His weight went from 190 pounds to 220 pounds in a matter of months, but with a 25% body fat percentage.

Jeff Francouer is a rightfielder with the Atlanta Braves. McCann and Francouer lived together during the 2005 season when they were in the major leagues. When McBride and McCann ate Twinkies together in the house, Francouer did not participate. According to McCann, however, Francouer admitted to McCann that Francouer ate a Twinkie or two himself during the 2005 season. Until this admission, McCann had never suspected Francouer of eating Twinkies.

In order to provide Francouer with information as to these Twinkie allegations and to provide him an opportunity to respond, I asked Francouer to meet with me. Francouer declined.

By TK

December 16, 2007 9:47 AM | Link to this

I think the Braves maybe missed the boat on Dan Haren also. Chuck James, Brandon Jones, Martin Prado, and another minor leaguer. Send Blanco also if the Braves could get Kotsay back. I think that could have done the job. I live in TN and have seen the kids the Dbacks sent to the the A’s in 2006 when the Dbacks had their AA team here. I think the A’s will be lucky if one turns out to be more than average. What do the A’s have to show for the Hudson deal…zip! Billy Beane is not the brain child some people make him out to be.

By doc

December 16, 2007 9:48 AM | Link to this

marty, by the rules of society what clemens and others have done was very illegal. it is just as illegal and in the same sad category as the stoned street druggie looking for his next hit of heroin to shoot up his arm or a crack head or folks taking apart pills designed for long term cancer pain relief and dissolving it into a mix they can inject.

in the “society of baseball” it was legal which in itself is amazingly arrogant and absurd to consider for the national past time. it is so sad that they think they can make and have their own rules, like the comments by then braves team rep and anti drug campaigner estrada saying, “take some of the drugs away from us but not our greenies. how do you expect us to work?”.

some have made great analogies within this blog that are priceless. it also resembles the workplace sexual harrassment issues that have been well tried and found to be illegal. up until then it was like someone saying no one said it was against the rules to fondle a worker in my company and pretend they could get away with it. isiah thomas found culture doesnt win over law in new york this year.

folks tend to think the culture takes precedence over law and then have to learn the hard way that they pay dearly when the law catches up to them like it has vick. roger may still get his chance to take the fifth when congress comes questioning again like mcguire did dispelling the notion he did no more than androstenedione which was legal when he had it on his locker room shelf. it is now illegal and the fda caught up with its oversight shortly thereafter.

i guess something good including mass education is coming from all this. even well meaning brian finneran was caught up in the idea of trying the line “it wasnt against the rules” like it mattered when it is a FELONY to take or supply the stuff and got shot down the other morning on the radio. it is hard for some to accept, even after all that has happened, that if it is against the law we cant go and make our own rules to “will it” to be ok.

By Shaun

December 16, 2007 9:50 AM | Link to this

ncscoots, if the Braves had given up the same ranked prospects as Arizona gave up, here are the players a Haren trade would have costs them:

  1. Jordan Schafer, of

  2. Jair Jurrjens, rhp

  3. Cole Rohrbough, lhp

  4. Jeff Locke, lhp

Plus another prospect.

And I’m not so sure Oakland wouldn’t have wanted a more major league ready young player—Johnson or Escobar—instead of one of those top 8 guys.

Also, I don’t think anyone said Carlos Gonzalez was the top positional prospect in baseball. But it’s clear the consensus is he is one of the top positional prospects in baseball. Baseball America, the gold standard for ranking prospects, agrees.

By Shaun

December 16, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

TK, the Braves would have had to give up a Grade A prospect plus at least two other top 10s and possibly more. They would have wanted Brandon Jones, Escobar or Kelly Johnson, I suspect, as the centerpiece of the deal. No way those players you named alone would have got it done.

By Shaun

December 16, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

TK, the Braves would have had to give up a Grade A prospect plus at least two other top 10s and possibly more. They would have wanted Brandon Jones, Jordan Shaefer, Escobar or Kelly Johnson, I suspect, as the centerpiece of the deal. No way those players you named alone would have got it done.

By David O'Brien

December 16, 2007 10:06 AM | Link to this

TK, you’re just not really analyzing the Haren trade if you think “Chuck James, Brandon Jones, Martin Prado, and another minor leaguer” would have gotten it done for the Braves.

Among the six players Arizona gave up were the Nos. 1, 3, 7 and 8 prospects in their organization, according to Baseball America. So start with two of the Braves’ top three prospects (BA ranks Braves’ top four as Jordan Schafer, Jason Heyward, Jair Jurrjens and Brandon Jones, so take two of those), then add two more of their top eight or 10 (Nos. 7-8 for the Braves are lefties Cole Rohrbough and Jeff Locke) and then throw in two more legit young prospects or young players (Arizona gave up two more pitchers in the deal, a couple of decent 24-year-old lefties) and you’ve got a deal.

Now, if you really think it would have been worth it to give up all of that, including a couple of potential future stars in Schafer and Heyward and a pitcher (Jurrjens) who’s expected to be at least a good mid-rotation starter in the majors and possibly a top-of-rotation guy in the future, well, then you’ve got a deal.

And if you think that would’ve been worth it to get three very reasonably priced years from a very good starter (Haren), then so be it. But I would strongly disagree with that. That’s giving up too much of the future. It’d be one thing if the Braves’ rotation was starving right now and scrambling to fill holes (like the Mets, for instance), but not when it has Hudson for a few more years, plus youngsters like Jurrjens and Reyes coming on. The Braves can go get a starter a year from now, or two years from now, by trading young talent if necessary. But not necessary to blow holes in your future plan to get Haren right now. Just not a prudent move.

By tlj

December 16, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this

Well said Doc

By David O'Brien

December 16, 2007 10:16 AM | Link to this

Doc, at the risk of drawing the wrath of a couple of Radiohhead zealots here (and I do love Radiohead myself), I wouldn’t say they’re “better” than REM. Just completely different. Far more experimental, yes. And with a couple of incredible guitarists, yes. But you gotta remember, REM influenced an entire jangly-rock college-radio era. And if you want to go on commercial success (I don’t, but for the sake of argument let’s) then compare their songs-you-remember-forever and will hear forever.

Again, I love both bands. But I’d not agree one can be said to be clearly better than the other. Totally different sounds, and came along at a different time. REM paved the way for hundreds of bands that never would’ve been played on radio before them. They were the quintessential college-radio and alt-rock band for most of a decade, and that’s a very, very good thing.

By Billy Walsh

December 16, 2007 10:23 AM | Link to this

With all of the signings and trades in the recent weeks…I thought of something very scary for Andruw Jones…. Being in the NL West..look at all the high caliber pitchers he is going to face… Peavy, Young, Cain, Linceum, Lowry, Schmidt, Johnson (if hes healthy), Penny, Haren, Webb, and the newest one Kuroda. I hope Andruw is hitting the cages with Mr. Boras…and rediscovering what went so tragically wrong last year. I would not be surprised if Jones fans 200 times this season. With a list of the greatest bands in the past 20 years or so you have to put the Pumpkins in there.

By Lew

December 16, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this

UGABrave-Glad you think I’m somewhat intelligent. That’s one of the nicer comments anyone has made to me recently.

Yes, I figured McFann was maybe a teenager or something. He (or she) definitely needs to learn not to argue a point that a simple Google of the facts supports what the other party was saying. Even if I had not remembered from being forced to memorize the 10 C’s verbatim from the Bible, when I was 10, the top five sources Googled, agreed with me. The kid has much to learn. At least the passionate part is well developed in him.

We now have almost two feet of snow up here ( more than a foot that hadn’t melted and we are in the middle of another foot scheduled today). It is cold enough (low’s in the single digits) that it will all be here until May. No problem though. The roads are still opened if I needed to go out (I don’t). Plenty of heating oil, a new HD TV and plenty of pencils and illustration board.

I’m almost finished with a Glavine portrait. How about some suggestions from the denizens for my next subject. Who would y’all like to win a portrait of? Maybe I’ll do a Wurlitzer presentation today.

By doc

December 16, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this

dob, didnt mean to imply one was better than the other. their own ability to recreate themselves and their music with each album was beyond the human realm and into a universe others merely wish about. it is the essence of what separates them and their ilk from the others as the beetles did and though i like the stones dont feel they ever accomplished; stones seemed to thrive on the energy they bring whether it is manufactured or derived from some supernatural source. it is all very different and i assure you in 20 years you wont be able to do top fives or tens. heh heh. some days you may not feel it but you still have youth on your side.

btw, one of the best all time albums and one i never get tired of …. RUBBER SOUL. god it brings me to my knees to hear norwegion wood.

By Braveheart

December 16, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this

Lew, how about a Wurlitzer of Barry, McGwire, Canseco, Clemens, Sosa singing I get by with a little from my roids, Oh, I hit ‘em high with a little help from my roids, I pitch nine with a little help from my roids, Yes, I’m gonna sign with a little help from my roids, Oh, I’m gonna get by with a little help from my roids

By doc

December 16, 2007 10:44 AM | Link to this

good bh, real good!

By ncscoots

December 16, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

Shaun, Carlos Gonzalez is not the equivalent of Escobar or Johnson, so you can take those two out of any comparable equation. And if you think Anderson, Smith, and Eveland are equivalent to Rohrbough and Locke, then we’re reading different publications. You’re saying that the the top ten prospects in either organization have equal trade value, and I know you’re not that obtuse.

I agree that the Braves couldn’t make a trade with Schaefer or Jones in the package, they have too many OF questions already. But the specifics of a package wasn’t the point in the first place.

And now I’m done with this. It’s moot, the guy’s been traded, Braves didn’t get him. End of story.

By TK

December 16, 2007 11:14 AM | Link to this

DOB…first I don’t think you can compair one minor league system to another. Your #1 maybe a #10 in another organaztion. The DBacks brought up their best player’s last year in Young, Upton, & Renolds. Who I suggested the Braves trade to the A’s…I think (for what it is worth) are better than what the A’s got from the DBacks. James, Jones, Prado can help the A’s now. As I said I think only one of the player’s the A’s got will ever be more than average.

By Lew

December 16, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this

Braveheart-Not so sure I could fit Bond’s head on a full sheet of illustration board-certainly couldn’t do a large enough drawing to fit that bunch of overinflated…Egos? on the same board.

How about a mock MAD Magazine cover with Bud Selig as Alfred E. Neuman-What? Me Worry?

For all of y’all upset about not giving up the farm for Haren-Do y’all even have a vague clue of what we have coming from the minors with our young pitchers? We literally have about 18 great prospects-most of whom Frank Wren tells us throw in the mid to high 90’s. If even two of them realize their potential, we are set for years to come. Again, I advise you to check out Cole Rohrbough, Thomas Hansen, Chris Medlen and the entire staff of the Danville team-all who look like jewels at this point of their minor league careers. Patience, Grasshoppers, patience. They will arrive in due time-IF we don’t go trading them now.

By McFann

December 16, 2007 11:31 AM | Link to this

Hey Lew, dummy, the Baltimore Catechism is NEVER wrong. Oh, and I looked in the Book of Genesis. End of story.

Whoa. That thing about McCann and McBride was really lame!!

At this point, may I quote Linus from “It’s the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown”:

There are three things I have learned never to discuss with people: Religion, politics, and Brian McCann.

By chrisklob

December 16, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this

Braveheart, you forgot one: I’m gonna get paid with a little help from my ‘roids!

By ncscoots

December 16, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this

nice imagery, but I think you are showing a little home bias

Nolie, I’ll let that slide, since you’re relatively new here (I think), and probably aren’t that familiar with my posts. There are few bloggers here who are less of a homer than I, in regard to prospects.

As Huckabay said…there is no such thing as a pitching prospect.

Preaching to the choir. But GMs trade for ‘em every day, thus they have value. Some more than others. Failure rate for Braves’ pitching prospects is no worse, no better than most other organizations. No GM is going to be gunshy of a projectable pitching prospect just because of his organizational affiliation, which I think was your position.

By McFann

December 16, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

OK, Lew, you wanted me to write a song by one of those groups you like, so here’s to you:

(To the tune of “You’re My Best Friend” by Queen)

Oooo! You make me livid! Whenever this blog would insult him Sayin’ “Oh, he should be trim!” Oooo! You make me livid now, buddy! Oooo! You make me livid! Oh, yer the best one / At makin’ me mad! I’ve been ‘round here just a short time It’s no sunshine! And I want you to know the what I say is true Why can’t I get through? Aw, you make me mad!

Oooo! You make me livid! I’ve been reeeeading this thing I see this stuff by you No matter what, I’ll stand by what I say Though I’m unhappy with you You make me mad!

Oooo! You make me livid! Whenever this blog is cruel to him I step, try gettin’ things straight Oooo! You make me livid now, buddy! Oooo! You make me livid! Aw, you’re the worst ones You say that he’s fat Sure, he’s weak at his defense But fat? Man you’re dense. I can’t stand the things / I just cannot stand the things that you say! Oh! You make me mad!

Oooo! You make me livid!

I’m unhappy / Un happy with you You make me mad!

Oooo! You make me livid! Oooo! You’re makin’ me mad!

There. Happy?

By nOLIE

December 16, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this

BBA 2007 list had Lilibridge at 93. Schafer,Jones nor Escobar were in the top 100. I don’t have access to the 2008 list if it is out yet. Does anybody? They had Gonzales at 18th, so I fail to see how any of the current Braves’ prospects are better than he is. MinorLeague Baseball.com has Gonzales rated 23rd in 2008 listings with no Braves in the top 50. Again I fail to see how we would have topped Gonzales without using Johnson or Escobar with their experience. I see the Yanks are back talking to Minn about Santana. I wonder who is being discussed now. With his contract status Santana might bring less than Haren did unless they can rekindle the bidding war between the Yanks and the RedSox.

By Bryan

December 16, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this

To nOLIE and the other folks hung up on the ranking of prospects: it is a book(!), and even though the purpose of the book is to provide a resource for determining the top prospects in baseball … it is still arbitrary … not to mention each team keeps their own notes on these players! This ranking system is less useful than the BCS!

So much changes season to season … look at ol wilson betemit! (i guess that is an example of what does not change or get better … ) and Andy Marte!

The BBA is a lot of things … but it’s defiantly not a measuring stick for evaluating trades … especially in the light of “well, we had x number of x rated prospects, why didn’t we make a deal” …

By McFann

December 16, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this

OK, just this one last thing out of me and then I’ll shut up for a while:

Lew, you were right about the 10 Commandments being in the Book of Exodus (Genesis was a typo on my part, I apologize). However, you are still wrong about the second Commandment. When God was speaking about worshiping idols, he was including that with the first Commandment! Duh! If we counted them your way, there’d be eleven!! SHEESH!!

And that’s it for Bible Class today.

By nOLIE

December 16, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this

Nolie, I’ll let that slide, since you’re relatively new here (I think), and probably aren’t that familiar with my posts. There are few bloggers here who are less of a homer than I, in regard to prospects.ncscoots

you’re right I am relatively new and not all that familiar with y’all’s beliefs yet. I did not mean it as an insult or an accusation that you are always a ‘homer’, just a simple observation that in this case I think you’re a little off in your evaluation.

By Steamboat

December 16, 2007 12:26 PM | Link to this

BBA 2007 list had Lilibridge at 93. Schafer,Jones nor Escobar were in the top 100

nOLIE, that says something about the reliability of prospect rankings, doesn’t it? That Yunel Escobar was not among the top 100 MINOR leaguers entering 2007, yet came to the MAJOR leagues and hit .326/.385/.451 in over 300 at-bats. And BBA is probably the most respected…

Until last year, Schafer had done nothing to justify being labeled a “top 100” guy. He blossomed last year, and I imagine he’ll be on the list this year (but again, how much does it matter?)

I think Gonzalez is probably better than any of our prospects right now - good tools, and more polished. He’s where Schafer should be a year from now. Brandon Jones is probably a similar bat, but without as much speed.

I do think we could have put together a package to compete with what AZ gave up, but there really is no reason, this year, to ravage our minor leagues for one starting pitcher.

By Lew

December 16, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

McFann-I’m not discussing Religion (and it’s good you’re not, either, because your knowledge is apparently limited, as are your research skills)-I’m trying to point out literary accuracy to you and nothing more. I have in no way espoused any particular dogma or philosophy, nor have I attemtped to persuade you to a point of view-much less mentioned whatever it is that I might or might not believe in. Nor have I asked for your own beliefs. Frankly, mine are none of your business and I think you’re an overly sensitive, arrogant, little jerk and I don’t have any interest in your beliefs.

However, that being said, you will have an extremely difficult time proving your point by looking in the Book Of Genesis, because the Ten C’s are in Exodus 34. Check it out, Oh 15 Year Old Know it All. While you’re at it, try Googling the Ten Commandments (and pay no attention to mentions of Cecil B. DeMille). I did (despite the fact that I remember the specific passage from EXODUS, VERBATIM (You know- “And God spake all these words, saying…”). Every single source that popped up on Google listed Graven Images as C2 (I’m an artist and may have more than academic interest in this one) and Taking In Vain as C3. Check it out on something more definitive than the Baltimore whatever-like maybe the Bible. Look to the source, young person and you will find I am correct yet again. You’re not. Youthful belligerence notwithstanding.

By David O'Brien

December 16, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this

Politics and religion — sure makes for pleasant conversation in a forum like this, doesn’t it?

By David O'Brien

December 16, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

TK, you’ll have to excuse me if I opt to go with what most scouts are saying about the prospects that Arizona got, rather than what you’re saying. I don’t know, maybe because they’ve actually seen them play and, oh yeah, because it’s what they do for a living.

You’ve made no point, given no reason whatsoever for anyone here to believe those three you mentioned would’ve gotten a deal done. None. Zero.

By nOLIE

December 16, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

To nOLIE and the other folks hung up on the ranking of prospects: it is a book(!), and even though the purpose of the book is to provide a resource for determining the top prospects in baseballBryan

I’m not hung up on anything, In fact I’m not a huge fan of BBAs rankings cause I think they are too ‘toolsy’ oriented and sometimes miss less athletic guys who can still hit. And I am well aware as I have posted b4 that lower ranked guys often end up performing as well or better than many higher rated ones. However we are talking in the context of trading prospects. I notice that anytime it is brought up some posters react emotionally like it is a slam at the Braves’ system. I ain’t. But what other way would you expect a GM who is contemplating trades involving different prospects from perhaps different programs to decide which one to accept other than by the way that they are rated in general by those who are s’posed to know. That certainly includes their own scouting system but also includes what other sources of info think about those guys. and if you think that I am the one saying ‘in light of so many prospects ranked at a certain level blah blah blah’ then you aren’t comprehending what I am saying at all. One teams number one may in fact be a way better or worse prospect that another team’s number, but the ratings that are based on the entire baseball field are about as good an outside source as you can find as they should have no biased axe to grind. By taking several sources like say BBA and MiLB.com and perhaps another one or two you can certainly get a feel for who is rated better overall and it would look pretty foolish for a GM to pass up a deal that included higher rated players for lower rated ones. If I offered you Lillibridge & Jones or Prado and Pena which would you choose? Would you expect a GM to pass on a #23 rated Gonzales for a # 73 rated Lillibridge? Maybe you would, but I can practically guarantee that no reasonable GM would. I am not slamming the Braves’ system. I am amazed that they managed to keep it as productive as they have with so many consecutive years of low draft choices. I’m simply being realistic,Certainly we could have put together a deal as good or better than the Snakes did, but it would have to include a little more than many are saying it would. And of course this is all moot since the Braves already are completely satisfied with their current starting rotation and were not even involved in the talks,:-( PS I always posted while Betemit was in the minors that I thought he would not prove to be anything special. A highly unpopular position in those days. I never got to see Marte play so I never had an informed opinion on him.

By McFann

December 16, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

Hey, Lew, thanks for calling me a jerk. Ha ha! That was funny.

I did look in the Bible, dummy!! Didn’t you see my latest post thingy? I looked in the Book of Exodus and I saw that C2 = You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. Oh, and I’m not interested in your beliefs, just trying to set you straight.

I’m not 15, either. But I am an artist. I draw animals—mostly birds. However, I don’t have a website or anything like you do…not that I want one.

By David O'Brien

December 16, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

Braveheart, I love your idea for a Wurlitzer of the ‘roid and HGH boys. But you gotta add Sammy Sosa to that chorus, preferably him singing while doing one of those ridiculous chest thumps for the camera….

Billy Walsh, right on about Smashing Pumpkins among best of past 20 years. No question, in my mind.

By David O'Brien

December 16, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

This would be a nice day to be like L.A. and have no NFL team. That way we in Atlanta could watch the real game — Pats vs. Jets — instead of the awful Falcons at Bucs.

By Shaun

December 16, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

“I do think we could have put together a package to compete with what AZ gave up, but there really is no reason, this year, to ravage our minor leagues for one starting pitcher.”

Well said, Steamboat. Arizona is loaded with quality young players and felt they were an ace away from World Series contention. The Braves aren’t in that position; no sense trading away half the farm.

By Lew

December 16, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

DOB-You’re absolutely correct. However, I’m just teaching a neophyte about citing your sources, making sure they are accurate and not opening your mouth and spouting crap when you have no clue about what you’re saying- in all of which McFann could use an extensive course.

By McFann

December 16, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

I’m sorry, Lew, did I hurt your wittle feewings?

Seriously, I am sorry. I don’t want to fight. And I know what I’m talking about!! But I’ll be danged to find out what you—wait…uh…never mind. Like I said, I don’t want to fight. How’s your bird been lately?

By McFann

December 16, 2007 1:12 PM | Link to this

Oh, another thing, Lew, (seriously, this will hopefully be the last of it.) I ain’t a “neophyte”, and I ain’t spouting “crud”.

By Lew

December 16, 2007 1:20 PM | Link to this

DOB- It’s all relative. I want to see my Bucs (once so far this year). I’m tired of watching the Patriots-I can see them every single Sunday and hear about them the rest of the week. I miss my Bucs, especially since they will go to 9-5 today and hopefully increase their division lead.

McFann-Dummy? If you’re not 15 then you have no excuse for the immaturity of your continuing rant. Grow up little boy.

So you’re an artist and you draw animals. Wonderful. I do, too. The world can always use competent artistic types. Sorry you don’t have a website. If you ever intend to do anything on a professional basis, however, you might consider it instead of wearing your jealousy on your sleeve and denigrating those who do-having an online portfolio will only lead to more commissions and job offers and less reliance on sending portfolios through the mail. It is hardly a status symbol, merely a marketing tool. I’m certain we’re all impressed-not only by your claims of ability, but by your lack of understanding what it might take to get ahead in a profession where it is extremely difficult to make a living in said profession.

By Shaun

December 16, 2007 1:27 PM | Link to this

TK, James is a solid mid-rotation starter on average. Prado could be a solid secondbaseman in the majors and I like him a lot as a player but he’s nothing overly special. And Brandon Jones is probably nothing more than a solid everyday player at best. I imagine the A’s wanted at least one player with All-Star type potential along with others, which is what they got.

By David O'Brien

December 16, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

Did you hear about the Marlins’ Select-A-Seat day Saturday? (This is no joke, they had their annual Select-A-Seat day Saturday for season tickets; typical timing/luck for the Marlins, huh?)

Anyway, fewer than 50 people — yes, fifty — turned out for the first two hours of the four-hour event. And most of them didn’t buy tickets.

Gotta feel for Fredi Gonzalez, who was there, by the way, along with Scott Olsen to sign autographs. Oh, my. As the song said, “Deep, dark depression, excessive misery…”

By Shaun

December 16, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

I’m tired of watching the Patriots-I can see them every single Sunday and hear about them the rest of the week.

Except when they are on the NFL Network, in which case only four people can see them.

By greenvegas

December 16, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

i have a good friend that is one year removed from a decent MLB career. He used roids to stay in the league. He told me two years ago that clemons was on some new roid that work for about 4 months after you quit taking it. Hence, the reason clemons would only pitch half the year. He also said every pitcher on his staff was using roids at the time. Time for baseball to do something right for the kids and get rid of this junk.

By McFann

December 16, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

Guess that last post of mine didn’t end it.

If you ask me, Lew, you’re the one who’s being immature. I’m simply trying to help you out. Apparently you’re a little stubborn. But I guess you could say the same about me if you wanted to. However, I am not being stubborn, I am merely stating true facts. If you do not wish to accept it, then that’s too bad.

“Little Boy”? Heh heh heh heh………

By Lew

December 16, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

Hurt my feelings? Hardly. You would have to do a bit more than call me dummy and dispute what I know to be true-not only from my own knowledge, but at the bare minimum, five additional sources from Google. No, just trying to set you straight. I hate to see artists such as yourself (at least I guess you are, I’ve never seen anything you’ve done) ranting when they have no leg to stand on and haven’t substantiated their facts. Remember, Oh Young one. It was you that brought the entire thing up, continued the argument and STILL haven’t got the sense to check it out and see exactly where you are wrong-on several fronts, I might add.

However, I have no desire to bore the hell out of the rest of the Denizens, or have DOB’s pleasant football afternoon ruined. Just go check it out on Google. You’ll be happier in the long run if you do.

Go argue with someone else. From what I’ve seen this week, it’s what you do best (other than have your feathers -like the bird reference?-ruffled way too easily). Now if you would only learn you need to argue with FACTS, you might turn into a worthy opponent. Now? Not so much.

By David O'Brien

December 16, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

Well, Lew, you’ll be happy to know your Bucs are up 14-3 in the first quarter against the hapless Falcons. And that’s enough punishment/viewing for me. Time to run some errands.

By David O'Brien

December 16, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this

Oh, forgot to mention this: Got my ballot in the mail for the Braves Player of the Year (our local BBWAA chapter’s award), and I gotta say, it’s not a clear choice this year to me. Got three or four people who could legitimately be the team MVP.

So I’ll ask you folks: Who would you vote for?

By Steamboat

December 16, 2007 1:43 PM | Link to this

Lew, you’re being played.

By McFann

December 16, 2007 1:45 PM | Link to this

On the lighter side, Lew, I’m not jealous that I don’t have a website. I don’t want a website. However, I did give two drawings to a radio talk show hostess. I won’t name any names, though, (unless you want me to) it could start another battle. And BELIEVE ME, I’m not trying to impress you geeks. I just thought you’d find it int’resting, SHEESH!! Try to start a conversation with someone and all you get is aggravation, aggravation, and aggravation!!

By Steamboat

December 16, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

DOB, guess you’re talking about ‘07 MVP, not projecting ‘08? If so, my ballot would be Smoltz, Chipper, Hudson, Moylan, Renteria.

By divx

December 16, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

I’m not even sure Chuck for Fuentes and cash is a good idea since moving Chuck to the bullpen would accomplish the same thing. Fuentes is going to be 33 next year and his K/9 dropped which usually indicates that a pitcher is starting to decline. Chuck is “only” an o.k. starter, but his problems come from only having two pitches and lack of stamina, both of which aren’t a problem for a reliever. Considering that Chuck is usually very very good in the first three innings of his starts, I think Chuck could be an excellent set up guy or even a good closer (he seems like he’s got the mentality for it and it would make up for his lack of a breaking pitch for lefties) and we’d have him for longer and for cheaper than we’d have Fuentes.

By robertE

December 16, 2007 2:03 PM | Link to this

My vote would be for Chipper. Without him in the line we are just not the same team.

By ed

December 16, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

Yea, DOB, Denver Post also Braves are still in on Fuentes also. But again, they mention salary as an obstacle. so i don’t know if that can be overcome. story below:

http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2007/12/16/braves-still-like-fuentes/

By Lew

December 16, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

Steamboat-No, I refuse to go along with the idiocy any longer. Don’t care how old he is or who he might be. An idiot is an idiot, no matter the identity they use at the time or the topic being discussed.

As far as giving two drawings to a talk show hostess. Wow. I am entirely impressed. I won’t tell you to Google my name and see what you come up with (that was pretty tacky when it happened before with another somewhat discredited Denizen), but I will admit to selling a portrait to Steven Tyler of Aerosmith and others to over 50 former MLB and NFL players-including some discredited earlier this week.

Whatever. We all grasp at whatever straws seem necessary at any given time. Some straws are just larger than others. Luckily, I’m not out to impress anyone. I let the art speak for itself.

By Shaun

December 16, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

Braves Player of the Year: I’d vote for Chipper. Even with his missed time, he was still so great that he should take the award.

Even with the missed time and even though three players (two of them who had pretty good years in their own right) had more plate appearances, Chipper still led the team in total bases, times on base and extra-base hits. He led the team in AVG/OBP/SLG and adjusted OPS+.

He has a significant edge in VORP, win shares, runs created and offensive winning percentage, if you prefer some advanced metrics.

No matter which way you slice it, Chipper was clearly the Braves best player. With about 15 or so more games played at about the same level he played the rest of the season, I think he would have deserved the NL MVP.

By McFann

December 16, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

Yeah, I’m gonna trust “Google” over the Baltimore Catechism. Ha! That’s a hot one! I have a leg to stand on (as a matter of fact, I have two), and I argue with facts, dipweed!! Good grief. You must be pretty darn insecure. And you know what? I am happy. Very happy. So maybe I’m not quite arguing on your level. But you know what? Someday, I just might grow out of that. But you? You will never stop being a jerk.

If you’re so confident in “Google”, then why are you so anxious for this conversation to end?

By Steamboat

December 16, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

Shaun, I think Chipper’s missed games cost him my MVP vote. He started 132 games, and the Braves were 72-60 in those games, 12-18 when he didn’t start. I don’t “blame him” for missing those games - injuries happen - but they affect his value to the team, IMO.

So yeah, you could argue that when he plays, he’s very (most) valuable. But the fact that he missed a lot of games makes him less valuable.

Anyway, no great argument from me… I think Chipper is great - but that’s my logic for putting him 2nd rather than 1st.

By Lew

December 16, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

I’m willing to let it end because you are an extremely obstinate little @$$, with the mentality of the proverbial brick wall. You can tell said wall it’s missing a mortar joint and it likely won’t fix itself-probably not even have a clue how to go about it either.

Google is not an authority you moron, it is a search engine that connects you to sites which are discussing the topic you Googled. Like I tried to tell you, every one they came up with discussing the topic, from Wikipedia to other more specific sites, agree with me. The fact you refuse to listen is your problem, not mine. I refuse to try to introduce you to knowledge any longer. Wallow in your ignorance. You do it so well.

By Marty

December 16, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

  1. I agree with Shaun that Chipper was the best Braves player this season. Shaun already set out the argument pretty well, so I won’t add to it.

  2. I mean this in the nicest way, but could we please end the __-measuring contest now?

By JasonInMaine

December 16, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

Despite the fact he missed a few games, I would go with Chipper as the team MVP. The numbers he put up with Andruw batting behind him, knock to keep piling on Andruw, is quite simply: amazing.

If would have been healthy the entire year, and no I do not think he is injury prone, but rather had bad luck this year; he would have garnered national MVP votes. As you have done in previous blogs, compare him to the Mets Golden Boy…

Additionally, if he would have had Tex protecting him the whole year; holy cow! Plus, he played gold glove caliber D, probably the best of his career.

By nOLIE

December 16, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

Braves Player of the Year: I’d vote for Chipper. Even with his missed time, he was still so great that he should take the award.

Even with the missed time and even though three players (two of them who had pretty good years in their own right) had more plate appearances, Chipper still led the team in total bases, times on base and extra-base hits. He led the team in AVG/OBP/SLG and adjusted OPS+.

I agree Shaun, but I also admit to bias as he is my all-time favorite Brave,

By Shaun

December 16, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

Steamboat, I see your point. I just think Chipper was so good in ‘07 that even with the missed games, he was better than everyone else; and I think the evidence we have shows this.

By Lew

December 16, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

Steamboat-You’re likely right that Chipper’s playing time cost him votes. Maybe this year he can avoid tripping over third basemen and falling on a wet field thisyear and play in 150 games. He has proven he can play with pain, at least.

I have no problem with Rollins, though. He talked the talk then walked the proverbial walk and carried his team on his back when Utley went down with his broken hand. He deserved it.

By McFann

December 16, 2007 2:40 PM | Link to this

OK, Dwip, case closed. I’m still right, and you’re still wrong.

Oh, and don’t ever use that disgusting language on me, buster!!

By Lew

December 16, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

Or what, Moron? You’ll post more crap that shows you don’t know jack? What an @$$. Dwip?

By Shaun

December 16, 2007 2:50 PM | Link to this

Lew, the question was concerning Braves Player of the Year and not NL MVP.

By Steamboat

December 16, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

Shaun (and others), I agree that Chipper is our “best” player when he’s on the field. If you’re looking to tomorrow’s game, that translates to Most Valuable. But if you’re looking to the past, you have to take into account missed games, and how those affected the team’s chance for winning. A player on the DL, or sitting on the bench, has no value.

An interesting debate. Using OPS for hitters, and ERA for starting pitchers, CJ and Smoltz were each 4th best in the NL.

And of course you could argue that an everyday player has more value than a starting pitcher, who only impacts 34 or so games a year… oh well, I’ve cast my ballot, but have no issues with those who disagree.

By old timer

December 16, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

Somebody probably has pointed this out, but it ain’t just the individual records. It looks like the Braves were outsteroided in many a postseason.

By Shaun

December 16, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this

Lew, but while we’re on the subject, Rollins did indeed walk the walk, if that means not getting on as often and not accruing as many bases as some other players.

By TennesseePaul

December 16, 2007 3:01 PM | Link to this

Nos. 1, 3, 7 and 8 prospects in their organization
Fernando Martinez, of
Carlos Gomez, of
Philip Humber, rhp
Jon Niese, lhp

Scouts from other organizations say the Mets have little immediate help on the way in the farm system. The jury is still out on how much Pelfrey and Humber can be counted on, and there’s not much in the way of upper-level position players behind outfielders Lastings Milledge and Carlos Gomez

But, all that was needed was the same number of players and the same ranking within the organization. I’m not so sure I buy that. I’d rather see Baseball America’s top 100 of all the teams and see how it’d compare. From what I can tell, some teams have better players than others, but every team has a top 10 list. Perhaps this all goes back to the Braves Man In Black Blog static post line #14: You over value the Braves prospects. I might have the syntax wrong on that line, but I think the idea is still there.

By Lew

December 16, 2007 3:03 PM | Link to this

Shaun-I was aware of that. However, the NL MVP race was mentioned and I responded to it in a post directed at Steamboat, who brought it up. Sorry you can’t deal with side issues and that my response took me off task. Some here apparently consider me to be a deviant-I couldn’t let them down, hence I deviated.

I would vote for Chipper for team MVP. Happy?

By Lew

December 16, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

Shaun-Yes, but the award is for Most Valuable Player (one would logically assume Most Valuable to their team) and not who accrued the most bases, had the best BA, OBP, OPS, VORP, the most HR, RBI, BB,SB, whatever other stat you wish to include, the most or least weight or whose wife is more of a Babe (might have to vote for Yunel if that were the case). Like we have discussed many times before-Intangibles are taken into account-not just pure numbers.

By McFann

December 16, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

Hey, Lew, need I quote the Beatitudes? Or will you not understand me without “Google”?

You’ve got some temper!

By Shaun

December 16, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

old timer, who’s to say, given that PED use was rampant, that Braves players didn’t benefit from them? At best, it would seem if PED use was as rampant as media reports and the Mitchell report says, Braves player knew about their use and kept quiet. Hard to feel sorry for them as far as being “outsteroided” in the post-season.

Steamboat, you’re right, can’t really be valuable if you aren’t playing. But on the other hand a player having the year that Chipper had helped his team a lot more when he played than some players who played in more games. Basically my rough argument is as follows: a player who goes 4-for-4 in one game is more valuable than a player that goes 0-for-8 in two games, assuming that the later player doesn’t make a ridiculous amount of outstanding defensive plays. I know the choices are never that extreme or cut-and-dry, but you get the point.

By Robert

December 16, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

“Robert wrote: “No, no, and again no. Baseball needs to take care of its own business internally.”

Yeah, because baseball has proven itself so capable of taking care of its own business internally. Good point, Robert

DOB - What needs to happen is that baseball needs to take responsibility and handle its own affairs.

The fact that they have not done a good job of that to date does NOT mean that we should get outside agencies or entities involved.

The responsibility is still not transferable, even if it has been neglected or mishandled so far.

It’s time for baseball to grow up and take responsibility and then take appropriate action.

It’s not time for baseball to turn itself over to overseers and/or babysitters.

By Steamboat

December 16, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

Lew, for the record, I have no problem with Rollins as NL MVP either (though that wasn’t the subject I was addressing).

Rollins did a lot of things very well; and didn’t do others so well. But he was definitely a leading force (both on the field and off) on a team that made the post-season for the first time in X years (sorry, too lazy to look it up).

And the vote is subjective; so writers who watch the game, talk to players and coaches and managers, use their discretion. I know Shaun wants the winner to be the best statistical player, but with all due respect, that’s not what the award is. If you want to have a “best OPS award,” fine, but that doesn’t necessarily equate to “most valuable.”

Rollins was not the best player, statistically, in the NL last year, but according to the writers, he was the most valuable. Fine.

By Lew

December 16, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

No McFann-That’s where you’re wrong. I’m not angry-quite honestly, you are not even worthy of me being p!$$ed off-your insignificance is overwhelming. You aren’t even a minor diversion on a cold, snowy day.

When you lose your temper you say all sorts of things you don’t mean and you don’t consider what you say. I, on the other hand, considered everything that I said to you and meant everything I said.

No, I don’t need you to quote me anything. I have a very nice Bible that I’ve owned for over 50 years. If I needed clarification on scripture, that’s where I would go-certainly not to you, with your flawed analysis of almost everything you ramble on about.

By car3boogie

December 16, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this

CHIPPER would get my vote. When he is in the line-up the Braves are without a doubt a better team everyday. Pitcher of the year Smoltz or Hudson, Player CHIPPER

By mo in the boonies

December 16, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this

For MVP I vote for Smoltz.

By Shaun

December 16, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

Lew, most valuable to me is the player who does the most to help his team win. This is largely, though I acknowledge not completely, measurable. And I’m not judging it on whatever stats I wish to include, but on some key stats that relate to value (i.e., helping the team). And it’s not about numbers at all, but about what the player has done to help his team. Certain stats largely tell us what a player has done to help his team.

By Lew

December 16, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

Steamboat-Didn’t mean to imply you thought Rollins was unworthy. You’re right. It is EXTREMELY subjective. However, when intangibles enter the picture (and like I told Shaun, it’s almost a necessity that they do so), then there will always be differing views. I remember the year Andre Dawson won with the Cubs coming in last. Now THAT was an uproar. Good thing it was before Shaun’s age of awareness. He would have gone apoplectic.

By Shaun

December 16, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this

I know Shaun wants the winner to be the best statistical player, but with all due respect, that’s not what the award is.

Actually, I want the winner to be the most valuable player. I want the award to be determined by the voters looking at evidence to determine who was most valuable and not by a guessing game that takes into account one thing one year and something else the next, ignoring the very things that were important the previous year. And I want the award to be determined by the voters looking at evidence to determine who was most valuable instead of guessing based on hype.

By McFann

December 16, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

Lew, you are a sad, strange little man. You have my pitty.

Yes. I’m sure your Bible is very nice, yes. So then…tell me again why you went to Google and not your Bible.

By Lew

December 16, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

Shaun-In this case, you do me a disservice-I am not saying there are no relevant stats-just that intangibles (which you usually argue against) are very prominent in MVP votes.

BTW-I agree with the use of stats much more than you might ever credit me for. Many times I just give you grief because I like watching you foam at the cyber mouth when I denigrate your precious numbers and formulas. I just like seeing you react. Quite Pavlovian, actually. Do ringing bells set you off?

By McFann

December 16, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this

WAIT!! Sorry!! I know Lew doesn’t want my pitty!!

By Bryan

December 16, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

Smoltz … brave of the year!

By Lew

December 16, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

McFann-If you think I’m little, you damn well don’t know me. And pity only has one T. Can’t you even use spell check correctly? Besides, I already know the words in the passage verbatim. The sites I Googled just backed me up. It’s called using multiple sources to confirm the facts. Is your life so unfulfilled that you need to continue this absurd rant just so someone notices your existence?

Am I strange? Yeah, probably so-I am after all, an artist and we tend to look at life differently. Sad? I don’t think so. I have a great wife of 33 years, a son who calls me several times a week, the talent to do some pretty nice art work that apparently makes people happy and I have all my bills paid, money in the bank, a warm dry house with a great view of the Green Mountains and plenty of food. Nothing to be sad about.

By Shaun

December 16, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this

Lew, my argument is that tangibles outweigh intangibles. Performance is largely measurable. If performance is in large part measurable, the stuff that can’t be measured probably doesn’t impact things as much as the measurable stuff.

By Lew

December 16, 2007 4:01 PM | Link to this

Shaun-Yes, I’m aware that is your argument. We HAVE had this exact discussion more times than we can count. Ding Dong.

By Steamboat

December 16, 2007 4:02 PM | Link to this

Shaun, I just don’t know how you could achieve that. If it’s a statistical measure, then it’s decided at the end of the last game of the season, by a computer. If it’s a human decision, then you’re relying on somebody to choose based on something other than statistics - and you really can’t order them to vote as you would.

It’s just an award… doesn’t really affect anything. At least as it is, it’s something that can be debated (fun for bloggers!). If it were statistical, it would be like debating who had the best batting average… not very stimulating.

By McFann

December 16, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this

I’m sorry, Lew, I didn’t mean that literally. And duh I don’t know you.

To be honest, I liked it better when you didn’t hate me. I’m not trying to get your attention, either. Why don’t you listen to the lyrics of “Come Together” by Third Day. That covers everything I have to say right now.

By Lew

December 16, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this

Shaun-One more thing. Yes, the intangibles DO impact things that much. Otherwise you wouldn’t have anything to argue about. All would be the “perfect” world you envision.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)

December 16, 2007 4:10 PM | Link to this

On the subject of Brian Fuentes. It’s highly unlikely that this trade will happen.

The Rockies are asking to much in the first place and it has been estimated that Fuentes will receive 5 million or more in arbitration.

The Braves wouldn’t pay Octavio Dotel that kind of money , it’s safe to say that Fuentes is to expensive for the Braves payroll.

By Marty

December 16, 2007 4:19 PM | Link to this

Steamboat, I’m not sure where you got your stats, but Chipper was 1st in the NL in OPS (1.029) according to his player page on ESPN:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=3006

As far as “intangibles,” that’s what people say to extol the virtues of a player who, by any objective measurement, isn’t as good as people pretend. No one talked about the “intangibles” of Greg Maddux or Tom Glavine until their skills (quite naturally) diminished with age.

By objective measurements and based on the “intangible” fact that I watched all of the Braves’ games last year and it appeared that they performed much better as a team with him in the lineup, I think Chipper was the team’s MVP in 2007.

By Steamboat

December 16, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

Marty, you’re right. I think I was looking at all MLB hitters (which placed CJ behind Arod, Ortiz, and Pena), not just NL. My mistake. Thanks.

By Marty

December 16, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

Coach, I’m not saying you’re wrong about the Fuentes trade not happening, but there are a couple of reasons that trading for Fuentes is not comparable to re-signing Dotel.

First, Fuentes is 32 years old, averaged almost 70 appearances each of the last three seasons, and was named to the All-Star team each of those years. Dotel is two years older and averaged not quite 21 appearances over the past three seasons due to injury. Though he pitched moderately well for KC and the Braves in limited work last year, I think it’s fairly obvious who I would prefer of those two if I were a discerning GM.

Second, if we were to acquire Fuentes in a trade, we might be able to finagle some sort of arrangement where the Rockies pay a portion of Fuentes’ salary.

Again, not saying that a trade for Fuentes to come to the Braves will happen, just that it’s (probably only slightly) more likely than the Braves re-signing Dotel.

By Lew Impersonation

December 16, 2007 4:32 PM | Link to this

I have talent as an artist blah blah blah. (Like nobody else on the blog has talent in something?) I look at the world differently because I’m an artist blah blah blah. (Doesn’t everybody look at the world differently?) I’m not angry I just enjoy getting pi$$ed off and fired up anytime someone disagrees with me because I’m never wrong. Blah Blah Blah.

Just kidding.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)

December 16, 2007 4:45 PM | Link to this

Marty , the Rockies payroll stood at just under 55 million for the 2007 season. We know for a fact that the Braves won’t pay Fuentes 5 million per season. The Rockies can’t afford him either. Fuentes is going to be traded , just not to the Braves.

By Jared

December 16, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this

O’Brien, I’d vote for Chipper Jones. Chipper should be who you vote for. After that, I’d vote for Smoltz second, Hudson third and Moylan fourth.

Coach, Fuentes is not comparable to Dotel. Fuentes is better and a potential trade could involve the Rockies sending cash the Braves’ way.

By McFann

December 16, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

Ha ha!! Funny impersonation of Lewser!!

By JasonInMaine

December 16, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

Lew Impersonation, seriously: get a freaking life. Can’t people act respectfully, intelligently, and with class? Disagreeing is fine. Arguing or debating a point is also acceptable. But, do it in a respectful manner.

By Lew

December 16, 2007 4:54 PM | Link to this

McFann-Why do you think I hate you? Hate stemming from a disagreement on a point that is virtually meaningless to begin with would be extremely juvenile. I mean, after all, you have a pet bird-that speaks well of you-they are not accepting of all people. If you’re an artist as well (you really should get a website-it IS beneficial professionally), then I am happy for you. It can result in much joy being able to create something where nothing existed before.

Now, Poor Impersonator- I don’t know if the rest of the world looks at anything differently (apparently so since I’m at odds with much I hear), I can only speak to my own way of looking at life.

Yes, I think I’m talented. You can’t be successful if you think you suck at it. As far as other talent on the blog-are you even aware that the Wurlitzer presentations are bestowed for just that purpose? That others have something to say and said it in a creative, well informed manner? You may be just having me on here, but maybe it would surprise you to realize that I acknowledge MANY artists that I am not good enough to clean their brushes. As for arguing-Yeah, it makes the day worth living. But, then again, no one else here argues, do they?

Now, should I apologize for professional success? Don’t think so and it won’t ever happen. I wish you much more success than I have had-providing you actually have a profession to be successful at.

By McFann

December 16, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

Wow, Jared, you’d vote for Smoltz over Timmy? Not me! I’d say Chipper and Timmy as Braves of the year……and Edgar, too.

By Shaun

December 16, 2007 4:57 PM | Link to this

Marty, good point. No one talks about the intangibles of the backup catcher or the utility infielder.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)

December 16, 2007 4:57 PM | Link to this

The Rockies have been rumored to want both Chuck James and Kelly Johnson with the Braves picking up Fuentes entire salary for 2008. like I said , it ain’t happening.

By Steamboat

December 16, 2007 4:57 PM | Link to this

To me, Fuentes’ salary is not really the issue. Braves can spend $300 million this year… I don’t care!

The concern I have is what it would take to get him. I can’t see why we’d trade prospects for another LHRP when we’ve got 2 on the roster, and a third (very good one) coming back sometime this summer.

By Lew

December 16, 2007 4:59 PM | Link to this

Jared-Yes, cash would in all likelihood, have to be included. However, why give up talent for yet another one year rental, especially at a position where we are well stocked to begin with-where we already have players lined up? If he is too expensive now, what about next year when he reaches Free Agency?

By Shaun

December 16, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this

Steamboat, I think we still need human voters because no computer to this point can properly weigh the correct statistics for determining value and context and things of that sort—i.e., no computer can take as many things into account as correctly as the human brain; quicker maybe but not as correctly.

By Jared

December 16, 2007 5:13 PM | Link to this

Fuentes is really good. Him and Mike Gonzalez pitching well on the same team would be the envy of every MLB team.

The salary is there. The Braves probably aren’t going to keep Teixeira (I still have a little hope) and Hampton will be gone. The Braves could probably give Fuentes a three year deal if he pitches well in 2008 for them if they get him.

As long as the trade doesn’t involve Kelly Johnson or a BETTER relief pitcher, like Peter Moylan (and let’s be real, the Braves aren’t trading Moylan), I’d do it.

And yes, Smoltz is better. Hudson was great in 2007, but Smoltz he ain’t.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)

December 16, 2007 5:17 PM | Link to this

My team MVP ? Chipper. Hudson comes in a close second followed by Smoltz in third place.

By McFann

December 16, 2007 5:24 PM | Link to this

Listen, Lew, you’re not a “loser”. Really. I’m sorry. I’d like to go back to the way things used to be: You kid me about McCann, I get defensive. It was more fun that way. (Especially because you were just kidding, correct?)

You’re correct about birds not liking everybody. I mean, ours’ll just be sitting on my shoulder and be the happiest thing alive. But if he does just that on my sister? Well, he wants back on me. And she treats him just the same as I do. Although I do give him “rubbins” more than anybody. Again, because he basically doesn’t like anyone else, unless he’s in a really great mood. Course, he likes my brother pretty good (if that’s proper English…but that doesn’t really matter on a blog, apparently.) But no one else scratches his head and neck the way I do (the bird’s neck, that is).

So this is more fun, right? Do you feed the birds in your backyard? We do. We even give out meal worms. I also trained a Carolina Wren to eat out of my hand. She’s been doing it since February 2004. Haven’t seen her in a month, though. That’s starting to worry me.

By Steamboat

December 16, 2007 5:27 PM | Link to this

I think we still need human voters because no computer to this point can properly weigh the correct statistics

Shaun, your point being that in a perfect world (i.e., when computers are more advanced than now), decisions, even value judgements, would be made by computers? Just trying to understand your position.

By GSU-Lee

December 16, 2007 5:42 PM | Link to this

DOB, I would go with Chipper, though you can always make a case for Smoltz and Huddy had a solid year.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 16, 2007 5:45 PM | Link to this

Steamboat Actually, the problem is you cannot bribe a computer nor promise it perks or make back room deals where votes are exchanged for other favors. A computer is only as good as the data fed into it. Thus the old “garbage in, garbage out” adage.

I once worked with a guy who was always stressing that his job would be eliminated by a computer, I told him as long as there was not a computer invented that could kiss a$$ and lick boots, his job was secure.

By Matt Berliner

December 16, 2007 5:55 PM | Link to this

so anyway…go to youtube and type in oasis my sister lover…excellent song by the band America forgot.

The best band in the world..”Oasis”

By Overlord

December 16, 2007 5:55 PM | Link to this

Nolie, i wont go over and discuss with you in a blog about masters and stuff like that, obviously if you need to talk about that you just want to proof yourself, and i wouldnt recommend you to try me on that, trust me, you could end up finding out the royal flush was not in your hands.

And by the way, when i used WWII as a comparison, i did because it is one of my hobbies to read all about WWII, thats why my nick is Overlord. It would also be a waste of time to talk about that. And i didnt tried to say WWII and the drug scandal were similar (of course im not comparing drug using to lost of millions of lives), what i tried to say was that when things get out of hand, like it did in WWII and like players using drug, there is a need for authorities (like allies did), to put an end to it before it gets worse.

PEACE :)

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 16, 2007 5:56 PM | Link to this

Robert No group, organization, entity of any sort likes to lose control of their own destiny.

Unfortunately, MLB has shown it is not willing or capable of policing itself to date. The only two ways that baseball can be threaten is either by widespread fan disapproval or loss of its Anti-trust exemption.

As long as the inmates are running the asylum you will continue to have chaos.

By bruce

December 16, 2007 6:07 PM | Link to this

Dave: Chipper. Thanks, Bruce

By Overlord

December 16, 2007 6:12 PM | Link to this

Shaun, in order to try to understand your way of thinking, would you tell me, from your point of view, which players are the MVP for the following teams:

Mets

braves

Cardinals

phillies

cubs

yankees

redsox

angels

seattle

tigers

and if each league should only consist of those 5/5 teams…….which players would be your league MVP for each league.

By cdinala

December 16, 2007 6:24 PM | Link to this

off topic, but DOB (and others), opinions on Rome (HBO, second season)?

By Lew

December 16, 2007 6:35 PM | Link to this

McFann-All it would take is not attacking me. Otherwise, I have no problem with you. I can take disagreement just fine.

Yes, I feed the local birds. I speak fluent Chickadee and Finch and call them at feeding time. I’ve seen a Peregrine Falcon and a Northern Goshawk on our deck, as well. They get into eating Mourning Doves, apparently. Also have a flock of 30 something wild turkeys that eat at my deck frequently.

Anyone who owns a bird a swears they have not been bitten is either lying or leading a life like St. Francis. They are contentious creatures at times. Kind of like us, I suppose.

By cody

December 16, 2007 6:43 PM | Link to this

Chipper for Braves MVP

By AdirondackDave

December 16, 2007 6:51 PM | Link to this

Gil - Agreed. MLB has proven only that it is capable of generating great profits in this media age… while free of anti-trust regulation. Maybe there will be some substantive policy changes for the better coming out of this steroid fiasco… but I’m not optimistic. I’d be a lot more hopeful if Selig and Fehr resigned to make way for fresh reform leadership, however I’m not holding my breath. MLB needs quality, respected leadership on both sides, people of the caliber of Bart Giamatti, Fay Vincent, or George Mitchell himself. If I’m not mistaken, Mitchell declined the job years ago. Remeber that quaint phrase referring to commissioner leadership… in the best interest of baseball? How alien it sounds today.

By McFann

December 16, 2007 6:54 PM | Link to this

Lew

Sorry (yes, again) I don’t mean to be attacking you, I just don’t appreciate you saying that the Baltimore Catechism is wrong. I promise not to attack you (severely) such that I call you names. (Ever try typing with your right arm raised? Brutal.) However, do expect to hear from me if you say something derogatory about McCann or whatever.

Wild turkeys? Awesome!! We sometimes see white-tailed deer in the woods behind our house. We’ve also been seeing a red-tailed hawk and a pileated woodpecker. I call my “babies” at feeding time as well.

Yeah, I’ve been bitten by Petey lots of times. He can get mad if he wants to…a lot like me, I guess.

By Daybed Wagmoe

December 16, 2007 7:31 PM | Link to this

DOB, are you in the REM fan club? i’m sure you know that they send out a holiday package every year which includes a 2-song single (or video, in some years). i got my package the other day and have been enjoying it. i don’t want to spoil it if you haven’t gotten it yet so i won’t say anything about the songs. but it’s an awesome thing to get every year and i’d recommend joining if you haven’t. (it’s only $10 a year.)

By Metropolitan Man

December 16, 2007 7:35 PM | Link to this

December 14, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this

Daybed, it’s a bit odd how MetroMan (he is a Mets fan, right?) gets all indignant about the GM of his rival being content with starting pitching. It’s almost like MetroMan would feel better to hear that other GMs in the division are scrambling to fill out their rotation, since his team is.

MetroMan, this just in: One of your key starters went from the Mets to the Braves. That left a hole in the Mets rotation and filled one in the Braves rotation. Shouldn’t be too difficult to comprehend.

Its easy to comprehend even 2 days later. Lose a pitcher who pitches every 5 days. Yes you filled a hole, but lost defense up the middle (something Glavine loves) and if you think you gained so much by getting Glavine, you havent seen him in big games the past 3-5 years. I’ll take an innings eater who Pitches every 5 days,rather then lose a position player who plays and contributes everday.(A. Jones) That shouldnt be so hard to comprehend. And stop tactfully insulting peoples post so they can repost and get your 1000 hits. Having a normal convo without attack will get you 1000 post, just not as fast as you like when you guys jump on people for small disagreeable infractions. All the braves did was keep the fans star power in tact. Bring in Glavine (known name) for a discount and ship greedy man Jones out because he is priced out. Give me a break, I comprehend very well, I’m just not the moderator of the blog who takes things personal and flex my pen/keyboard when I dont agree wholeheartedly.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 16, 2007 7:43 PM | Link to this

And upon further review Folks, I have been reading from many sources that players claim to have inquired about HGH following an injury and were looking for agents that would help them recover from said injuries. I doubt this to be true in all cases, perhaps just a convenient excuse.

However, if it was true that HGH has some medicinal properties, it would be prudent for baseball to view the administration of HGH to speed the recovery of an athlete just the same as a cortisone (a steroid) shot is use to speed the healing in joint injuries and muscle tears.

If someone has a bacterial infection we would not withhold anti-biotic treatments. I just think baseball and the medical community needs to look at HGH as a possible solution in some case verses an absolute evil.

I am not advocating its use as a performance enhancer, only as a possible treatment for known injuries. At least baseball could make sure such treatments are in a controlled environment.

By chrisklob

December 16, 2007 8:12 PM | Link to this

Gil, you raise an interesting issue regarding HGH’s potential. To me, the difference is this: anti-biotics kill viruses AND they do not enhance performance as a side effect. HGH may promote healing AND it does enhance performance as a side effect.

It would be impossible to manage the legal use of HGH. Once a guy gets the go ahead to use it, what’s to stop him from using more than prescribed? It’s my understanding that everyone has a different level of naturally occuring HGH in their blood stream which would make it impossible to determine who’s using their prescribed amount and who’s using more than that.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)

December 16, 2007 8:20 PM | Link to this

The AJC has reported that Willie Harris signed with the Nationals. They also signed Ray King and Pete Orr to non- guaranteed minor league deals with an invite to spring training.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 16, 2007 8:54 PM | Link to this

It is really funny how our society readily accepts drug use as a form of recreation but makes it difficult to be used beneficially. The answer is to make sure the legal HGH has identifiable makers included with the dose. Not really all that difficult to do.

Sigh…. Ugly football game being played in the Meadowlands tonight.

By Steamboat

December 16, 2007 9:03 PM | Link to this

Gil, Chris: do doctors prescribe HGH for injuries typical of athletes, like tendonitis, etc?

I thought HGH was used mostly for people with a demonstrated shortage of the hormone in their system - which for children can be a big issue as far as development goes, and for adults may result in advanced aging.

But if I wrenched my knee playing basketball, or threw out an elbow playing beer league baseball… would any doctor prescribe HGH as a treatment?

If not, then it shouldn’t be allowed for pro athletes. I don’t believe it’s a legitimate prescription for recovery from routine injury - but I’m not sure about this.

By chrisklob

December 16, 2007 9:03 PM | Link to this

Gil, I’m not opposed to using any pharmaceutical in a beneficial fashion. My question was about separating legitimate use from illegal use. You obviously are a much smarter man than I to know that you can put “identifiable makers” in it.

By Lew

December 16, 2007 9:19 PM | Link to this

ChrisKLob-I think what Gil meant was that if the manufacture were standardized and manufactured by “reputable” pharmaceutical companies, you would be more assured of getting pure HGH and not a designer cocktail of the drug du jour like “the clear” or “the cream” we hear spoken of.

I don’t know if there is enough medical knowledge about HGH to know what it’s medicinal benefits might be. I do know that cortisone shots hurt like hell and that steroid injections reduced the retinal swelling I experienced the past couple of years. Other than that, I’m not sure they know. I sure don’t, but it really wouldn’t surprise me if it could be used in a beneficial manner.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 16, 2007 9:20 PM | Link to this

I am not saying that HGH is beneficial or has been accepted by the medical community as a treatment for injuries but apparently it does have some medical benefits. I think it warrants further study.

Even substances like marijuana have been found to have medical benefits, I am not saying it should be abused. What I am advocating is doing valid research into the possible benefits of such substances as HGH for the promotion of healing injuries.

I am not saying it is the cure for the common cold, I just think it has possibilities given the anecdotal evidence.

By Daybed Wagmoe

December 16, 2007 9:31 PM | Link to this

DOB, my vote for team mvp would be for chipper as well. great defense, and there’s a huge difference between when his bat is in the lineup and when it’s not. renteria second, smoltz a close third, hudson fourth.

MetroMan: I’ll take an innings eater who Pitches every 5 days,rather then lose a position player who plays and contributes everday.

really? so, given your choice between, say, signing livan hernandez and losing carlos beltran, you’d lose beltran?

All the braves did was keep the fans star power in tact. Bring in Glavine (known name) for a discount and ship greedy man Jones out because he is priced out.

so, the braves brought back glavine and let jones walk for the fans star power — in other words, so that the fans would buy tickets to see a star. that doesn’t make much sense, considering how well-liked andruw is/has been in atlanta and how divided braves fans are over glavine. his leaving really POed a lot of fans. i guess it (“it” meaning signing glavine and not even offering andruw a contract) had nothing to do with improving the rotation (the weakest part of the 2007 team) and making do with the financial resources available.

By chrisklob

December 16, 2007 9:36 PM | Link to this

Gil, I don’t know if HGH has the ability to help heal injuries. After doing a little reading, it seems that it’s used mostly for it’s anti-aging properties including fat loss and the addition of lean muscle mass. Not necessarily a healing drug.

My point was that once you open up the possibility of using HGH by players you open up a Pandora’s box of other issues that just might prove to be a bigger problem than what we have now.

By Metropolitan Man

December 16, 2007 9:50 PM | Link to this

He says in the report that St. Louis Cardinals manager Tony La Russa claimed that he had “exaggerated” in a CBS interview where he strongly suggested outfielder Jose Canseco was taking illegal drugs, “and that La Russa now told him that he ‘had never confronted Canseco about his use of steroids’.”

What about former commissioner Fay Vincent? Mitchell: “He told me that he failed to notice the emergence of steroids because he was focused on cleaning up the problem of cocaine use by major league players.”

Oh, that’s right. Remember what a great job Major League Baseball did cleaning up that scandal?

In the mid-1980s, a team mascot in a Parrot costume who was the middle man in drug deals revealed that the Pittsburgh Pirates were snorting coke like crazy. Funny how we choose to forget history. Outfielder Tim Raines revealed that he slid headfirst so he wouldn’t break the vial of coke in his back pocket. Raines, Keith Hernandez and numerous other players were called before a Pittsburgh grand jury.

There was no perjury trap.

The ballplayers were granted immunity for their testimony instead of being charged with felonies for cocaine use. The dealers went to jail. Commissioner Peter Ueberroth suspended 11 players, seven for a full season.

The Players’ Association intervened. Not a single coke-snorting ballplayer missed a game.

I can’t wait to see how this one turns out.

By Steamboat

December 16, 2007 9:51 PM | Link to this

From the Mitchell report (and while he may have certain motives, I really doubt he meaningfully misrepresented fact):

The Food and Drug Administration has never approved the use of human growth hormone to treat an athletic injury, to become more lean, or to improve athletic performance. The use of human growth hormone is a violation of federal law if not for an authorized purpose, even if with a prescription.

I tend to believe Pettitte’s description of the reason he purchased HGH. I don’t think he needs to be executed or anything.

In fact, I agree with Mitchell that MLB should not waste time and resources trying to punish past offenses, but rather focus on cleaning up the problems in the future (wow, I sound like Mark McGwire).

But I think we have to be careful about lowering the standards just because some “nice guys” have been found to have broken them.

If HGH has potential as a remedy for injury, let the medical community prove and refine it, and the FDA approve it.

By Bryan

December 16, 2007 9:57 PM | Link to this

Hey, Metro Man, that was two days ago … where have you been???? Hey, have you heard, roger clemens used steroids!

Ohh check out this latest news story about the Met’s next big pitching trade

By Metropolitan Man

December 16, 2007 10:05 PM | Link to this

Daybed Wagmoe: You added by subtracting. Yes, you have Glavine who didnt even lead a team in wins last season (innings are not the bottom line, wins and losses are) and he was the so-called ace. Now you lose Jones and just assume those numbers are going to come from somewhere else. Well just like you cant replace over 200 innings, us METs fans no you cant replace 100 rbis, stellar defense, and a fan favorite all “Wiily Nilly”. Glavine will be missed for innings, but not much else because what he provided, 4 other capable bodies can do and 1 journey men. How many guys will it take to replace Jones. Oh, and if Glavine retires after next season, now you have 2 holes to fill that once was a lock with all stars.

Oh, and to clear up, I’d rather have a position player with clout, than a pitcher with clout who can only be used every 5 days. Pitchers real worth is in the playoffs, during the season he has multiple opportunities to get bailed out with the bats, not so many in the playoffs. And we know how wonderful Glavine pitches in big games….except for that 1 back in the day.

By Metropolitan Man

December 16, 2007 10:18 PM | Link to this

Hey, Metro Man, that was two days ago … where have you been???? Hey, have you heard, roger clemens used steroids!

Ohh check out this latest news story about the Met’s next big pitching trade

If you follow this sport you would know this really isnt news. HGH, greenies, coke, horse tranquilizers, and other goodies have been going on since day 1. Someone, somewhere is capitalizing on all this. Because Mota’s name didnt make the report, we all know it has to be inaccurate or not complete. The more we talk about it, the longer it lingers for seasons to come.

By Navigator

December 16, 2007 10:21 PM | Link to this

Three years ago, steroids saved my life, as I laid on a bed near death in the emergency room. A virus had caused my lungs and heart to swell and almost shut down. It’s too bad some of the most important medicines of our time, is smeared by a bunch of scum known as professional athletes.

By chrisklob

December 16, 2007 10:58 PM | Link to this

Navigator, it is true that certain drugs that have legitimate value get a bad reputation. It’s unfair in some instances — yours obviously included. Steroids clearly play an important part in medicine today. It’s the abuse of those substances that are hurting the image of those drugs.

Has anyone ever heard of an NBA or NHL player being pinched for illegal steroid or HGH use? I don’t follow either sport. It just occurred to me that I can’t recall ever hearing anything of the sort. And I can’t believe that those guys are completely clean either. Too much money at stake.

Either way, glad you’re still with us Navigator! You’ve gotta love the power of modern medicine!

By David O'Brien

December 16, 2007 11:34 PM | Link to this

Daybed, I didn’t know there was such a fan club. I mean, I figured they had a fan club, just didn’t know you got a two-song thing every Christmas, that kind of thing.

E-mail with the details at dobrien@ajc.com

By David O'Brien

December 16, 2007 11:35 PM | Link to this

Well, the consensus among those voting here was clearly Hoss. As I suspected it would be.

By brian

December 17, 2007 12:55 AM | Link to this

Has to be Chipper DOB-

I still do not understand all the Chuck to the Rockies for Fuentes. First why would the Rockies want a fly ball pitcher with stamina issues to come and pitch a mile high. For the Braves - it just seems to me they would be “selling low” on Chuck right now. His stats look pretty good for someone who had a bad year. He is really young and is not in his prime. Chuck obviously has to work on strength/stamina, preparation, and a 3rd pitch, but again he is young. Chuck stands to be a solid #3 pitcher long term (solid #4 or 5 now). With the steep price for pitching these days, especially young cheap pitching it just seems like too little to get a lefty reliever for 1-2 years for Chuck. If the Braves are intent on trading Chuck they should wait until spring training when some team realizes they are desparately short on pitching (and of course waiting until spring training helps make sure the Braves have enough pitching)

The past 2 years everyone has talked about how the Braves had too much starting pitching and should deal some of it away - myself included (though I must say I favored trading away Sosa while his value was high in that offseason). Chuck James is not Jorge Sosa

By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)

December 17, 2007 1:57 AM | Link to this

First off , the Braves have made it abundantly clear that they intend to go into spring training with eight candidates for the five man rotation.

Those eight are : John Smoltz , Tim Hudson , Tom Glavine , Mike Hampton , Chuck James , Jair Jurrjens , Jo-Jo Reyes and Jeff Bennett.

The three names at the start of that list are a given. Mike Hampton is an unknown factor as of right now.

If Hampton stays healthy , the top four spots are locked up.

If he doesn’t , then the two remaining slots are wide open.

I said all that to explain this. Chuck James only has a shot at the rotation if Hampton goes down again or if (God forbid) somebody else gets hurt.

He won’t beat out Jurrjens , Reyes and Bennett if the other four spots are locked up.

Thats why some of us are of the opinion in thinking that James might get traded.

Chuck James trade value could actually at it’s highest in spring training of 2008. If he is to be traded , that’s when it will probably happen.

However , there is one other scenario. Assuming the four veterans stick and one of the other three fills the fifth spot , James could get tucked away in Richmond until the July 31st trading deadline (he has options).

By then , teams will be slobbering all over themselves for pitching and the Braves could haul in some much needed talent or fill whatever need the team has at that time in the future.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)

December 17, 2007 2:47 AM | Link to this

One other name that almost no one has considered or mentioned until now.

Ryan Drese.

Ryan who ? you ask. Well , for starters , he has 96 major league starts. In 2004 , Drese actually won 14 games for the Rangers (14-10 4.20 ERA with 207.2 innings pitched).

He dropped off the baseball radar after a much publicized dugout scuffle with catcher Rod Barajas in 2005 , was put on waivers and claimed by the Nationals and spent the entire 2006 season on the DL (T.J. surgery in April 2006).

He was subsequently released by the Nats on Oct. 3rd 2006 and signed a minor league contract with the Braves on August 3rd 2007. Drese was assigned to the Myrtle beach Pelicans (high A ball) and made six starts going 0-3 with an ERA of 6.88 .

Drese represents as another reclamation project much like Jeff Bennett. He is a 6-3 right hander with a mid-90’s fastball , good slider , plus curveball and a change up , safely tucked away down in A-ball.

Man , I love those scouts !

By Braveheart

December 17, 2007 7:11 AM | Link to this

As far as that Beatles thing goes, we should make Canseco the Pete Best of the group just to keep “blackballing” him.

By nOLIE

December 17, 2007 7:40 AM | Link to this

He was subsequently released by the Nats on Oct. 3rd 2006 and signed a minor league contract with the Braves on August 3rd 2007. Drese was assigned to the Myrtle beach Pelicans (high A ball) and made six starts going 0-3 with an ERA of 6.88 .Coach

he has a career WHIP of 1.57 and an 88 ERA. If he makes it to the Braves and pitches many innings they are prolly gonna have had some real bad happenings

By Braveheart

December 17, 2007 7:56 AM | Link to this

I’m also amused at the people on here who were not indignant about the report, until the name of one of the prized Braves was mentioned. Justice is sacred, but Rocker and Sheffield are not? Come on people “in for a penny, in for a pound” What is fair for one is fair for all. …… Perhaps Justice used the same method of paying as Kevin Brown. The following is taken from the report: Kevin Brown — Radomski said that Paul Lo Duca referred Brown to him in 2000 or 2001 when Brown and Lo Duca were teammates with the Dodgers. Brown called Radomski and they spoke about human growth hormone for one or two hours. Radomski said that Brown was “very knowledgeable” about human growth hormone. Brown was placed on the disabled list in June 2001 with a neck injury and in July 2001 with an elbow injury. After Brown got hurt, he called Radomski again and asked for human growth hormone. Radomski said that he sent human growth hormone to Brown by overnight mail and called Brown several times to make sure he had received it. Brown finally returned Radomski’s call and confirmed he had received it. Soon thereafter, Radomski returned home one day to find an express delivery package from Brown on his doorstep, wet from the rain. When he opened it, he found that it contained $8,000 in cash.

Mo in the Boonies First of all, the defense of Justice has nothing to do with how much I like Justice. Never was his biggest fan. But the dumbest thing you did in your excerpted material from the Kevin Brown portion of the report is that you didn’t read. You said that perhaps Justice paid in cash like Kevin Brown did. A huge problem with that is that it was specifically alleged in the Mitchell report that Justice paid by check, a check which is mysteriously unaccounted for unlike the checks of many others named in the report.

Also, the Kevin Brown excerpt contains details about how Brown and Radomski were hooked up. (by Loduca). It contains details of when they were hooked up. It contains details of how the transactions went down. It contains details of why Brown was hooking up with Radomski (overcoming injury). It contains the price and how much money Radomski received. If you know the price and how much money was exchanged, you have a better idea of how much HGH Brown purchased because that would presumably be based upon the market price for HGH at the time.

But as to Justice, there is no check, there is no direct eyewitness proof of use and possession like in the Clemens examples, there is no detail recalled about how Justice and Radomski came to know one another, there is no detail of when or where or how the transaction took place, he was unsure of how much HGH he exactly gave Justice, there was no sale price listed, there was no details of how much money exchanged hands. The testimony of both McNamee and Radomski as to Justice is way too lacking in detail for his name to be responsibly included in the report.

As for why I don’t defend Rocker the same way as Justice, Rocker’s name appeared on one of the HGH company’s documents saying he was a recipient of HGH and Rocker’s own spokesperson said Rocker had been prescribed HGH by a doctor.

As for Sheffield, he admitted under oath having received and used “the clear.” His own admission damns him whether he knew what he was using or not.

So, it was not a matter of selectively defending Justice because I am a fan of his. It had more to do with what standards I would expect someone like George Mitchell to have before he named me, you, or anyone else as an abuser of illegal substances in this kind of report that is published for all to see and basically condemns anyone named therein.

By chrisklob

December 17, 2007 7:59 AM | Link to this

Mets raise price of tickets twenty percent. Article here

I guess they’ve got to pay for all their high-dollar free agent signings somehow.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 17, 2007 8:08 AM | Link to this

One thing about minor league ball, They allow for drug testing on a higher level. The kids coming up are legitimate talents. I don’t expect to see as many guys filling out as they get older like we have witnessed in the past.

By rich brave

December 17, 2007 8:49 AM | Link to this

GIL:

Been waiting to be here around the time you are to thank you for noticing my absence. Virus ate my whole system for awhile. Still have the virus, but won’t correct until ‘08. That will teach me to buy another microsoft product. Started with APPLE in the early ‘80’s and that’s where I’m going now. Best to you and your family. Hope you have enjoyable holidays. BRAVES? What’s to say? Wait for ‘08. Later.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 17, 2007 8:59 AM | Link to this

The real problem with drug testing is really about trust. Working with a union for as long as I did, there was never a problem really with the vast majority of folks. Of course there were people who were known user and some who came out positive that were a total surprise.

The real issue was about trust. That is, trusting the company that did the testing did not ever make any mistakes. Once it was found that these mistakes did not occur and the system was reliable, resistance was diminished but there was still a nervousness until the results came back.

I was subject to random drug test 4 times per year. That was twice the norm because I held a higher clearance than others.

The real problem was maintaining confidentiality. That is a problem I see ever increasing. When you have someone making $8.50 an hour offered even a minimal amount to “spill the beans” it is hard to keep those leaks plugged.

I think one of the biggest travesties was the leaking of Grand Jury testimony in the Barry Bonds case. I do not blame the news media for reporting the information but the individual responsible for the leak should spend time in prison.

When you eliminate promised anonymity you lose trust in the system. As I have said many times, it is not illegal for reporters to ask the questions, it is illegal to provide the answers.

We often learn the hard way who can and who cannot be trusted. Keeping one’s mouth shut is a difficult task for most. Once upon a time, a verbal commitment and a handshake was all that was necessary for a binding ageement. Now teams of attorneys will come up with ways to break a seemingly ironclad contract or bankrupt everyone while trying.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 17, 2007 9:05 AM | Link to this

Rich Brave Hate to tell you this but they are creating viruses for Macs now too. e-mail me at elliotgm@aol.com and I will send you a link to a free virus program that is outstanding.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 17, 2007 9:07 AM | Link to this

Uh.. Rich Brave, that should read anti-virus….

By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)

December 17, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this

David Justice is a scumbag. First Nicole Foster and then Halle Berry accused him of physically abusing them.

If it had been just one woman , I would have to doubt the allegations , but when two different women accuse the same loser(Justice) of abusing them , I have to think that this guy isn’t worth a plug nickel and neither is his word.

Whether or not he did HGH , I don’t know. I do know that his reputation won’t hold water.

By nOLIE

December 17, 2007 9:57 AM | Link to this

Justice also had the rep of being a total egocentric jerk as a player and a teammate. Very unpopular. As Halle said, he is an accomplished liar. Intelligent articulate but totally self-involved. I’d bet that he did it.

By timmythebrave

December 17, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

As far as MVP of the Braves this season you could easily go with Chipper. I personally would go with Smoltz for his leadership and stopping the slides but either choice is a good one

By rich brave

December 17, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this

GIL:

E-mail is still shot. Must use someone else’s. See you went to TDHS. Ever know a Spanish teacher named Joyce Soto? Her husband and I worked together for years. Gonna’ visit them in January.

By T.C

December 17, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this

its amazing how david justice gets singled out from all these former players that were mentioned for steroids.truth is the intire sport of baseball is a lie so dont call one player pathetic,call the game of baseball pathetic.pick on the so called juiced up players that are still playing and making millions form cheating.go after the clemons and pettittes who are so called allstars.but noooo we go after bonds and justice and nobody else have done wrong in americas eyes.i guess since the league is over 75%white and all the big names are esposed its not a big deal and will be covered up.pettitte gets a pass because he admitted he did and its alright,pleeeeese.let that have been hank and see baseballs response.

By DaveinTheSprings

December 17, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

Can’t believe no one mentioned Black Sabbath for greatest Rock band….although I will conseed their also metal…

By DAP

December 17, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this

yeah, dont punch ‘zona’s ticket to the playoffs yet. they have a great looking rotation, but their offense still inst overwhelming. im not sure if they are as good of a team as the braves are. the NL west will be a dobfight again this year, folk. IF arizona makes it, they will be tough in the playoffs. we will see, though.

by the way, chuck james for fuentes is a stupid trade, i think. i think people undervalue james. if we could get willy t. AND fuentes ina trade including james then it could at least be considered. but ONLY prado and james, not johnson and james. since we dont need prado at all anyways, we really wouldnt be losing much.

By Lew

December 17, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

TC-Perhaps Terence Moore’s blog would be more to your liking? Perhaps you’ve forgotten about Mark McGuire. He got a pass, didn’t he? A sure lock for the HOF that will never be enshrined. How about Giambi, Canseco, Palmiero and Clemens? Yeah, it’s all about race. Sure it is.

By Robert

December 17, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

Any chance the Falcons will try and hire Marty Coxenheimer - just so we can boast of having the absolutely most retarded head coach or manager in TWO professional sports?

By DAP

December 17, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this

steamboat chipper is even better than that. #1 in the NL in OPS. #4 in MLB behind Arod, Big Papi, C. Pena. ive said it before, and ill keep saying it, we are getting the privilege to watch one of the greatest players in our generation everyday.

chipper jones will go down as one of the all-time greats, and there is no debate, that he is the braves MVP in 2007.

also, i wanted to point out that the dimond backs were 4th out of 5 teams in thier division in scoring last season. haren is a great pickup, but thier team is weak in other places.

By timmythebrave

December 17, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this

I just sold almost all of my old baseball cards. Half the players rookie cards that I cherished are a bunch of cheaters. They knew what they were doing was wrong. If I had a vote I would no longer vote Clemens or Bonds for the hall of fame. Some people would say that everyone was doing it and they were just unlucky enough to get caught. Yeah them and everyone else in jail are just “unlucky”. If you cheated and got caught I have no sympathy for you.

By DAP

December 17, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

third day…now there’s a great atlanta band not mentioned on this blog much.

lew and mcfann, i cant help but notice you both throwing bible references and christian band lyrics at each, while acting less than christlike.

i like and appreciate both of you on the blog, so dont take this as an attack…more like a friend breaking up a fight between two other friends.

By Steamboat

December 17, 2007 12:11 PM | Link to this

DAP, I think I acknowledged that error on my part yesterday… but thanks. I agree 100% on Chipper; he is truly one of the great hitters in the game today, and probably all time. My vote for Smoltz in the Braves MVP poll was simply because I place more importance on missed games than most… clearly, I’m not in the majority on that!

By DAP

December 17, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this

sometimes, when catching up on posts from the weekend, i forget that the posts im reading are not real time.

some of my recent responses to posts are irrelevant. specifically, lew and mcfann seemed to have made up. sorry to get in the middle.

im glad to see we are talking about more than just the mitchell report now.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

December 17, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this

So, is anything going to come of the Brian Fuentes rumors? It would be nice to get Fuentes and Tavares but I think it will take more than James and Prado. That kind of deal is going to take James and Kelly Johnson or James and B. Jones or Diaz.

By john tarleto

December 17, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

chipper was the MVP…but there was a co-MVP. smoltz. not because his numbers were stagering though…but because he was solely responsible for chipper playing all of the time. after their war of words in the media, chipper felt as if he couldn’t sit out a game. and he played amazingly. we have smoltz’ leadership to thanks.

By DAP

December 17, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

steamboat yessir, i saw that as a i read on. im a little late on many topics this morning! sorry about that…

By Daybed Wagmoe

December 17, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

MetroMan: yeah, i guess you’re right — innings aren’t the bottom line, it’s the win-loss that really counts. so i guess you wouldn’t want a guy who was, say, 15-13 in 219 innings this year, would you? i mean, you wouldn’t want a guy like that in your rotation, right? because all those innings aren’t the bottom line, it’s the wins and losses, and 15-13 isn’t a great record, even if it was johan santana. nah, you’d probably want the next guy.

you really think that wins and losses are the bottom line? that’s just dumb. horacio ramirez had a winning record this year (8-7) with a 7.16 era. and i guess that john maine’s 15-10 record washes out his close to 4 era? if wins and losses are the bottom line, why didn’t josh beckett win the AL cy young this year, and why didn’t russ ortiz win it in 2003? W-L record is not the bottom line. is it important? sure. is it the best representation of that pitcher’s worth? hardly. ERA and whip are really the best indicators of how good a pitcher is. how many GMs do you think sit around in their meetings saying, “i don’t care how many innings the guy pitched last year, i want the guy with the most impressive win-loss record”?

Glavine will be missed for innings, but not much else because what he provided, 4 other capable bodies can do and 1 journey men.

well, good luck with that. it doesn’t sound like many people are with you there, including billy wagner, anthony dicomo who wrote this article about your 2008 rotation, as well as marty noble, the mets beat writer who handles the mailbag questions on the website. but, since you think that 4 capable bodies and 1 journeyman can do what glavine did, you might want to tell that to omar minaya and willie randolph. they’ll thank you for saving them some dimes on alka-seltzer, tylenol and no-dose.

I’d rather have a position player with clout, than a pitcher with clout who can only be used every 5 days.

well, 2007 must have been a great year for you. no need for the mets to add pitching when they’ve got position players with clout like david wright, carlos delgado, carlos beltran and jose reyes.

By Lew

December 17, 2007 12:38 PM | Link to this

DAP-No problem. McFann and I are cool. We weren’t really discussing religion. There was no mention of dogma or philosophy and neither of us gave any indication of what our beliefs or non beliefs might be, nor did we attempt to describe any philosophy or attempt to convince anyone of anything other than a logistical situation that happened to deal with the Bible. That’s probably why we were not deleted, nor overly admonished by DOB. It was all about literary accuracy and nothing religious whatsoever, beyond the particular book being discussed. As a matter of fact, I know I went to great lengths to avoid any doctrinal discussion and I’m sure McFann did, as well. In the long run, it was little different than discussing the order of paragraphs in a Hunter Thompson tome, or something by John Grishom, really.

By David-ATL14

December 17, 2007 12:41 PM | Link to this

Here are the 6 Year Free Agents that have been signed by the Braves:

Colter Bean-RHP Ferdin Tejada-RHP Jonathan Rouwenhurst-LHP Luis Valdes-RHP Jean Boscan-C Javier Guzman-2b Joe Borchard-OF Reggie Taylor-OF Corky Miller-C Jose Santiago-RHP.

The latter two would be termed a re-signing as they were with the Braves organization for the 2007 season.

By TennesseePaul

December 17, 2007 12:42 PM | Link to this

So this just cracked me up. No peace for Lo Duca.

By rich brave

December 17, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

T.C.:

Thanks for those racial statistics. It’s so good to see someone concerned about percentages. By the way, what’s your take on the NBA, NFL, NHL? Do you think they should all have quotas based upon racial percentages in America’s population? Are you implying MLB should? Oh, and where do American Indians,Asians and Hispanics fit in? Have you considered them to be white-black-mulatto in your statistics? Just need to fully understand the basis of your conclusions. Your post raises so many complex questions and inquiring minds want to know. I’m writing an article for the National Enquirer, and want to use some of your findings for my article. O.K.?

By rich brave

December 17, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

T.C.:

Thanks for those racial statistics. It’s so good to see someone concerned about percentages. By the way, what’s your take on the NBA, NFL, NHL? Do you think they should all have quotas based upon racial percentages in America’s population? Are you implying MLB should? Oh, and where do American Indians,Asians and Hispanics fit in? Have you considered them to be white-black-mulatto in your statistics? Just need to fully understand the basis of your conclusions. Your post raises so many complex questions and inquiring minds want to know. I’m writing an article for the National Enquirer, and want to use some of your findings for my article. O.K.?

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

December 17, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

David, not an impressive list but Colter Bean’s name did catch my attention. He is a former Yankee who has some really good stuff. He actually helped them out a couple of years ago. So, hopefully he will regain some of that form.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

December 17, 2007 1:05 PM | Link to this

Can the racial issue in baseball please be left off of this blog. The lack of blacks in baseball is not due to racism. Are there racists in baseball? Of course, there are. Anybody who denies that is either lying or naive. However, the lack of blacks in baseball is due to the lack of interest by black youth in baseball. Its that simple. That is why Torri Hunter had said he wanted to go somewhere there was a larger population of blacks so he could hopefully generate some interest.

T.C. you are way off base and the only thing your comments will succeed in doing is to make certain people unnecessarily defensive and cause others to show their “hidden” racist feelings. So, basically it accomplishes nothing positive. Nothing at all! Just let it go, man, because you are wrong.

By Shaun

December 17, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

Shaun, your point being that in a perfect world (i.e., when computers are more advanced than now), decisions, even value judgments, would be made by computers?

My point is that computers are not the human brain and I can’t foresee a time realistic where they will be (as we are not driving around in flying cars as every sci-fi movie predicts). No computer can process stats, context, etc. in as appropriate a perspective as the human brain. So those who think that stats and evidence equals me wanting to turn the MVP voting over to computers are just wrong.

Overlord,

Mets - Wright

braves - Chipper

Cardinals - Pujols

phillies - Utley or Rollins

cubs - DLee

yankees - Rodriguez

redsox - Ortiz

angels- Vlad or Lackey

seattle - Ichiro

tigers - Magglio

NL - Wright

AL - Rodriguez

By TennesseePaul

December 17, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this

Still, the Braves will have the financial means to at least compete for Teixeira. By taking the contracts of Mike Hampton and Tom Glavine off their books, they’ll free themselves of approximately $17 million. An early guess is that Boras will be looking to get Teixeira a seven-year contract worth approximately $140 million.

If this proves to be the case, the Braves would have to be willing to provide Teixeira a raise of approximately $8 million to the salary he’ll gain as an arbitration-eligible player in 2008. And as Boras has already hinted, they’ll likely have to forget about their strict stance against providing no-trade clauses in contracts.

Teixeira’s desire to remain near his wife’s family in Atlanta could certainly increase if he gets a chance to experience the postseason and compete for a World Series championship. But based simply on my current gut feeling, I’m thinking this will be his final year with the Braves.
—Mark Bowman

So I’m not the only one. Interesting that Glavine’s salary is tossed into the group of “guys who won’t return”. Not that it should be taken as doom and gloom, but it always seems to be. Teixeira is as good as gone after this season. He’s talented so we should get a good year from him.
This is it though. Once that bat leaves we’ll be in a tight situation for hitting. But we do have Schafer on the horizon right? He’s supposed to be Grady Sizemore. And Francoeur will still be here giving us great defense and a .780 OPS. So it should be easier to slip Thorman back into the line up. Then we can focus on acquiring pitching. Or stick with Hudson, Smoltz, Jair, JoJo, and James… assuming James is still around. He could be delt for a stop gap center fielder or a lefty specialist. If that happens then perhaps Bennett will be in there. Jair JoJo and Bennett. Three guys with about 50 innings or less at the major league level. And that of course is assuming Smoltz is extended past this season, which is reasonable to think.

They gotta play their @sses of this coming season. But, like I said before, it will be hard topping those NL West teams.

By David-ATL14

December 17, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this

I think Tejada could help also Robert(JIB). He has some potential.

Hey last year we signed Harris and Carlyle. Both helped the parent club. That’s about all you can ask. Just build some organizational depth and if injuries strike hope someone can contribute if their number is called.

By Calvin

December 17, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this

Mr. O’Brien

I just read Mark Bowman’s answer to Mark Teixeira’s possible contract extension with the Bravos. His says that in his gut feeling that the Braves won’t be able to sign him because of the whole no-trade clause thing. What is your feeling on if the Braves have a real shot at signing Big T given that they will have at least 17 mil next year since Hampton and Glavine will be off the books? I can’t see the Braves giving up so many good prospects for Teixeira only for him to leave a year and a half later.

By kdbanks

December 17, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

DOB,

What on demand channel is that Rebels of Oakland movie on? There’s so many channels now it’s hard to dig through to find stuff.

Agree that Chipper was team MVP this year.

Interesting conversation with my dad this morning about Yunel Escobar. Dad thinks he’s got a chance to take over Chipper’s leadership role when Chipper hangs up the cleats. Specifically, Yunel plays hard and plays smart - runs the bases really well, solid defense, timely hitting, moves the runner over, and looks like he’ll develop some pop. Thinks he could be an all star in the future and hit in the 3 spot. Pretty compelling argument, I think.

By TennesseePaul

December 17, 2007 1:29 PM | Link to this

NL - Wright

What a minute, Wright didn’t get the NL MVP? I thought I saw that one in his list of awards: Gold Glove, Silver Slugger, Time Man of the Year, Heisman trophy, People Mag’s Must Beautiful Human Being, Cy Young, Rolaids Relief Man of the Year, Hank Aaron Award, Clemente Award, Mayor of New York, Nobel Prize in Economics, Brought Peace to the Middle East, Triple Crown, Batting Title, HR champion, HR Derby Winner, All Star MVP, Player of the Week for 26 straight weeks. 6 Player of the Month awards. Day Time Emmy. Best Actor Oscar. Life Time Achievement Award from the AMA.

Ah… I guess I misread a few…

By McFann

December 17, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this

I’m glad to read that there’s no hard feelings between me and Lew. I really didn’t want to be at each other’s throats all the time. It’s just that different Bibles say different things.

Again, Lew, I wasn’t trying to attack you. And heck, you’re the one that called me…well, never mind.

I’m glad to be talking about things besides the Mitchell Report, too. That was getting boring.

By Overlord

December 17, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this

Shaun i read your post, im kind of busy, ill post my response later in the afternoon.

By Braveheart

December 17, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this

10Paul, don’t forget David Wright won the Masters, Wimbledon, the Kentucky Derby, the Daytona 500, and the Indy 500 as well.

Unfortunately, David Wright will lose the presidential election next year to Jimmy Rollins. Wright will have the rate stats, having won the majority vote. Rollins however will have the raw counting stats that matter - those darn pesky electoral votes.

Lew & McFann, glad y’all sorted out whose Bible is bigger.

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this

TennPaul, and Kiwanis Man of the Year. Just announced. David Wright in a landslide….

McFann, sorry but I’ll take the Mitchell Report over you waxing about differences in Bibles.

By Lew

December 17, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

TenPaul-Wright never won, nor will he ever win a Wurlitzer. You did, though.

By DAP

December 17, 2007 1:54 PM | Link to this

10paul also, look for francouer develop this year to the point that he will be a good replacement for tex in the cleanup spot. francouer is a great run producer already, and with a little more seasoning i think he will be great protection for chipper in ‘09 if we cant resign tex.

by the way, i think he needs to bat 5th behind tex ALL SEASON, not just against lefties.

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

kdbanks, that movie is on HBO, under documentaries, if I’m not mistaken. Sports or documentaries, but I think it’s documentaries.

By DAP

December 17, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this

kdbanks interesting thoughts on yunel. i disagree though. out of the young braves, i think kelly is most likely the future #3 hitter. power, OBP, and can run as well as yunel. i really dont think yunel will develop the power. he will probably hit like edgar.

yunel might end up at third base, though.

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this

Calvin, I don’t have a strong feeling either way on whether Braves will be able to re-sign Teixeira. But when they made the deal, all they were thinking is, get two potential October runs out of him (missed on first) and try to re-sign him, but knowing there’s never any guarantees, especially with Boras as his agent. As I’ve said, Boras takes almost every client of his to free agency when they get this close, especially a guy like Teixeira who was traded, who hasn’t been with his current team a long time.

I think they’ve got a shot, but they’ll have to give him a long-term deal worth an average $20-22 mill per season, at least five years and likely six or seven. They could backload it a bit to make it work, if they want to get creative and build around him.

By Lew

December 17, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

McFann-Like I said yesterday, I never was angry with you. I really do just argue and attempt to be coldly rational in what I say. I may cast doubt on a person’s intelligence, but never on anything like race, religion, family or anything of a serious nature. If you can’t take being called an idiot, well, your skin is just too thin for this forum.

I get frustrated at times (certainly not just with you) when my point is not clear after ten or so posts. I know I speak in English and view it as the other person’s unwillingness to see my point. Had there not been interdictions concerning certain subjects here on the blog (not that there’s anything wrong with that), I could have presented my case in better terms-however…..

It takes much more than blog arguments to really tick me off. Usually it requires incessant idiocy, such as is evidenced in NoBrainZone’s posts all of the last season. I have argued with Coach, with MetroDude, CCRider and many others including Tennessee Paul and Braveheart, who I consider to be my friends. I’m not upset with any of them and I’m not upset with you.

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this

Coach, well-reasoned post at 1:57 a.m. My view of the situation is real similar to that.

By DonCoburleone

December 17, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

“This would be a nice day to be like L.A. and have no NFL team. That way we in Atlanta could watch the real game — Pats vs. Jets — instead of the awful Falcons at Bucs.”

That is not true DOB. It seems like everybody around the country thinks this about LA. ITS NOT TRUE! If the Raiders and/or Chargers are on the road or have a sellout at home, we automatically get that game in LA. Trust me, we don’t get the best game of the day every week; in fact, it rarely happens. (but that’s why I go to my local bar which has all the games anyway…) For some reason CBS/FOX seems to think LA and the surrounding areas (Orange, San Bernardino, and Riverside counties) are packed full of Raiders and Chargers fans. It really is annoying…

By Greg in TN

December 17, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

Afternoon denizens…

Braveheart Anytime. I think Selig means well but is horribly inept at execution. I think Fay Vincent appeared to be in over his head at times, but also had to assume office and then immediately had a crisis to manage in the 1989 Oakland earthquake during the series.

I don’t know that Selig, Pohlad and Reinsdorf among others would have been able to get Giamatti out of office so easily.

TennPaul I think Wright just offered his services in mediating the writer’s strike in Hollywood. The only way he can build on the season he had is to be named King of Monaco next year.

I’m a day late and a dollar short, however my vote for MVP is much like the rest of the gang. Chipper with Smoltz and Hudson coming in tied for a close second.

Lew I don’t think a billboard would be a big enough canvas for either Bonds or Sosa. Perhaps Rhode Island if they could remove all the buildings and trees and such. That’s the only way to keep everything in the correct proportions.

By TennesseePaul

December 17, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

Lew: Wright never won, nor will he ever win a Wurlitzer. You did, though.

Lew, careful man. Not more than 30 seconds after that was posted some hired goons showed up to claim a Wurlitzer that was “inappropriately delivered”. They had little name tags on their sweater vests that read “WrightStuff”

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this

However, Coach, I just got to your comment about Braves not taking on Fuentes’ salary if they wouldn’t take on Dotel’s $5.5 mill option.

Coach, they’re are not even REMOTELY similar, and I don’t even mean Fuentes being lefty.

In the past three years, Fuentes has made 78, 66 and 64 appearances, totaled 74-1/3, 65-1/3, and 61-1/3 innings and posted ERAs of 3.44, 3.19 and 3.06 despite pitching half his games at Coors Field. Oh, and coverted 81 of 97 save opps in that span.

In the past three years, Dotel has 15, 14 and 33 appearances, totaled 15-1/3, 10 and 30-2/3 innings, and posted ERAs of 3.44, 12.97 and 4.12. And converted 18 of 26 saves.

NOT EVEN REMOTELY COMPARABLE, at this stage of their careers. Dotel is a high-risk, injury-plagued, 34-year-old right-hander.

By rammerjammer

December 17, 2007 2:19 PM | Link to this

I expect the Braves to sign Tex unless he does an Andruw-like swoon and we pass on him.

Trading, what, five of your top prospects for a year-and-a-half production? No, not a good business move.

Liberty has already grown payroll, and $16M more will be available when Glavine and Hampton leave, with cheaper options replacing them.

Yep, I can see the Braves doing this IF Tex has another fine year and IF the Braves compete for a title (prompting him to want to stay).

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

DonC, why’d you have to mess up my story about getting the pathetic Falcons’ game instead of Jets-Pats?

By DAP

December 17, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this

DOB quick question for you about signing tex, say for a minute the braves go all the way this season and win the world series. does this help the braves resign tex or does it even matter? is a team coming off a championship more attractive to a player?

what motivates players more? winning or money? my guess is that its different for every player, but what motivates tex? if the braves go all the way do we have the upper hand?

By TennesseePaul

December 17, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this

Sheeesh. If that’s the way it goes it’s disappointing. I’d think that Jair and JoJo would be sent back down before James. All three of which have options. And James is the most successful of the three at both the Majors and the Minors. Bennett has no options so I’d image he’d be tucked into the pen next to out of options Boyer. Both of whom could be trade bait and both of whom I’m not sure would hinder the team long term too much if traded for some sort of utility/stop-gap/lefty-specialist type player.

It’s the 2009 rotation that leaves me with little hope. Heading in with Hudson, Smoltz and JoJo and Jair and some other kid not named James would be depressing. It’d make for a particularly long Summer. Which, in most cases is a good thing, I’d like baseball to last as long as possible, but not by the slow death of the team.

By Saltywoody

December 17, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this

I’d LOVE to see the Braves pull Fuentes away from the Rockies. I’m not sure I’d ever want him closing for us (though he’s been marginally effective in that role for the Rockies…or was until Corpas came in), but he’d be perfect in a setup role. Sure hope they can find the money.

Plus, if Gonzo comes back after the break and is effective, I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near a bullpen that could throw Gonzo, Fuentes, Moylan, and Soriano at you in succession. That’s plain nasty.

By Lew

December 17, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

TenPaul-Your Wurlitzer was of Andruw. Can’t see Wright wanting one not of himself-his supporters wouldn’t, anyway. Never met the guy. From all accounts he is a nice guy-if not a tad overrated by New Yorkers. Maybe he is OK.

Likely he would have a ways to go to equal the less than amiable ways of the two worst personalities in baseball that it has been my misfortune to encounter-Len Dykstra and Joe Orsulak. Luckily, there are some great guys like Bobby Dews, Darren Holmes and the Amaros in Philadelphia who more than compensate for the jerks.

By ncscoots

December 17, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

They had little name tags on their sweater vests that read “WrightStuff”

And, much to DOB’s chagrin, the same nametags were recently seen sported by Uma Thurman and Penelope Cruz.

Is there no end to the pervasive evil that is David Wright?

By Saltywoody

December 17, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

Oh, and DOB, I have no sympathy for you.

So you get the Falcons game and that blocks out one game a weekend.

Imagine being in the Bay Area and not ever being able to see anything on Saturday/Sunday but the Niners and/or the Raiders. Now those are some pathetic games and they’re usually on at two separate times, so we essentially get every other game in the country blocked every Sunday. It’s horrific.

By rammerjammer

December 17, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

My objection to trading James is that Hudson is the ONLY reliable starter after 2008.

Hampton and Glavine will be gone and Smoltz will be 42.

The other three? Jurrjens, seven career starts. Reyes, ten career starts. Bennett, two (!) career starts.

Why James (age 26, 48 career starts, 4.00 ERA, a LEFTY) is even considered for a trade is beyond me.

By KC

December 17, 2007 2:39 PM | Link to this

THIS JUST IN: The CY Young votes were miscounted…

The Cy Young award will be given to David Wright (along with Manager of the Year, and Heisman trophy).

By TennesseePaul

December 17, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this

In November of 2008 the Yankees will officially cut ties with Jason Giambi. The chances of the Yankees picking up his massive option are slim seeing how they have attempted in the past to void the contract for other reasons. This frees up an extra 21 million a season to spend on a first baseman. The Yankees will also be moving into a new stadium in the not too distant future which will present the team with additional revenues.

The Braves on the other hand might be freeing up 17 million by letting two aging pitchers walk. The replacements of which still have rookie status. Another pitcher will be needed next off-season. It will come down to, do the Braves purchase pitching or do the Braves purchase Teixeira? Knowing the Yankees will have an additional 21 million to spend on top of the many millions they already have the chances look slim of Teixeira returning.

Teixeira was acquired because it was believed that his presence in the order behind Chipper would launch the team into the post season. But Renteria went down and Yunel filled in and the team just hovered at .500. Trading 5 guys for Tex wasn’t a bad business move. First off, only Salty was a known commodity of the 5, the casual Braves fan had never heard of nor seen the rest of these prospects. Secondly, it created the opportunity to be a contender for two straight seasons. The first season was a total bust, but the next season looks a little better especially if the stars align and everyone is healthy and effective for a whole season.

By TennesseePaul

December 17, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this

Lew: Actually the one I have is of Smoltz. Unless there was to be another in which case perhaps Wright’s Goons did make off with it. Perhaps they just pasted his face on top of it…

By DonCoburleone

December 17, 2007 2:49 PM | Link to this

Sorry DOB, but it really p** me off when I can’t get to the bar on Sunday to watch the games and I get stuck watching a Raiders-Chiefs stinkfest or a San Diego-Detroit blowout… It takes 2 hours to drive to San Diego from LA and at least 7 hours to drive from LA to Oakland, how exactly are those our “home” teams??? That would be like you guys in the Atlanta area being forced to watch Carolina Panthers games because they are “local”…

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

DAP, you wrote: “what motivates players more? winning or money? my guess is that its different for every player, but what motivates tex? if the braves go all the way do we have the upper hand?

Those are only questions that Teixeira can answer, and you can be certain he’d say “winning” whether that’s entirely accurate or not (it might be accurate, but I’m just saying, no player is going to confess to being motivated more by money than winning, unless he’s entirely clueless).

By McFann

December 17, 2007 3:03 PM | Link to this

Lew, I can take being called an idiot.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 17, 2007 3:03 PM | Link to this

rich brave I never took Spanish, although I was suppose to, but I cannot jog my memory banks to remember that name. I graduated in ‘67 from Thomas Dale. I think a Mrs Soto had a small farm off Jeff Davis towards Colonial Heights. Could that be correct? I went there once with one of the clubs or maybe the SGA… Wow, It is really hard to go back that far. It would not surprise me however that we have some mutual acquaintances.

By TennesseePaul

December 17, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

I’m just saying, no player is going to confess to being motivated more by money than winning, unless he’s entirely clueless

So… interesting… Furcal comes to mind. I recall words coming out that sounded something like if the Braves want to keep him they’ll have to show him the money from his best friend who is now enjoying a short term fair market value deal on the same team.

By braint

December 17, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

DOB, I was at The Van Halen concert in San Jose, CA last night. David Lee Roth was absolutely fantastic! Eddie did a 15 minute solo and they’ve never sounded better.

By ncscoots

December 17, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

I frankly don’t understand the fascination with Fuentes, especially as a setup guy. IMO, Yates has better stuff and better makeup. If Bobby can resist the temptation to run him (and Soriano, too, for that matter) out there late with a five-run lead, he should be excellent.

Fuentes is a fine pitcher, but he doesn’t elevate the quality of the pen. So why waste the money or trade package? Unless the Braves are very shaky on Ring and Ohman…but, even then, it’s hard to see Fuentes as a highly paid specialist; could have paid Mahay to do that, and the Braves passed on the concept.

By Steamboat

December 17, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this

10Paul, assuming we’re paying Tex about $13 mil in ‘08, the jump to $20 mil would only require about half of the $17 mil we’ll save on Hampton/Glavine.

I don’t think we can win a bidding war with the Yankees (obviously), but I do think that the way our roster is structured, we can make a competitive offer.

One would think that at some point - like when considering $140 mil vs. $150 mil over 7 years - things besides dollars would come into play; like quality of family life, comfort with mangement/teamates, etc.

I’m real optimistic that we can sign Tex - but of course it’s easy for me to give away his money.

By rammerjammer

December 17, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

I support the J.D. Drew philosophy, but only when it works.

By ssiscribe

December 17, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

Top of the afternoon, everybody. Hope all is well.

Lew, my Wurlitzer is of Andruw. Proudly hangs in my office, next to my framed ticket stubs from the 1995 World Series and some other cool Braves stuff.

—30—

By Savannah Guy

December 17, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this

The Daily Buzz (Fly on Wall Report No. 035)

(This post may just settle the whole steroid, HGH Mitchell Report issue once and for all so that Hot Stoves, cool music and BBQ may resume. It’s all true)

As soon as Mr. Fly finished his blankety Blank Falcons report, he needed to cleanse himself and get back to a good, wholesome baseball story. Trouble is, there is a mess in our All-American pastime. Steroids have become the bane of baseball. An entire baseball generation has been dubbed “the Steroid Era”.

Since the sleuth reporter, Mr. Fly loves the Atlanta Braves and the game of baseball, he decided to speak out against this travesty of sportsmanship. After receiving a Congressional invitation to assist with a special investigation of steroid use in baseball, Mr. Fly was flown by private jet to meet with U.S. Senator George Mitchell to assist in preparing the Fly-Mitchell Report. The Report title was later shortened for reasons of top-secret Mutant Teleportation secrecy, National security and, um…other reasons.

The following is a brief excerpt from a conversation on the final day of Report preparation:

MR. MITCHELL: on behalf of Commissioner Bud Selig, Major League Baseball, Congress of the United States, all sports and all youth throughout the world in every sport, let me thank you Mr. Fly for helping so much with this report.

MR. FLY: um, you’re welcome Senator Mitchell.

MR. MITCHELL: you have done so much for this report and this game. Your insight has been invaluable. There’s just one more thing…

MR. FLY: yes sir, what might that be Senator?

MR. MITCHELL: give me names. You were on walls in every clubhouse in the MLB. You must have seen…

MR. FLY: oh, my…no can do. Wouldn’t be right. That would amount to betrayal.

MR. MITCHELL: but Mr. Fly, you helped so much with everything else. Why not name names?

MR. FLY: me not rat, not tattler. Me reporter, not spy.

MR. MITCHELL: if you can’t name names and turn in players, I’ll be forced to remove your name from the Fly-Mitchell Report.

MR. FLY: that’s ok Mr. Senator. Me was just helping…me must be welcomed in clubhouse as a reporter. Me must be welcomed at pre-game buffet tables too.

MR. MITCHELL: all right then. Anything else you would suggest for the report before it’s printed?

MR. FLY: yes, tell players that chicks may dig the long ball, but if they do ‘roids they will give new meaning to the term “small ball”.

MR. MITCHELL: small ball, eh? Maybe we should check those as part of testing?

MR. FLY: oh, my no. That’s hitting below the belt. Just look at and listen to players. If they have big head or sound like Alvin and the Chipmunks, give blood test.

MR. MITCHELL: uh, good idea. Anything else? Want me to pass anything along to Mr. Selig?

MR. FLY: yes. Tell Mr. Selig he must retire this year or be fired for being asleep at the wheel. Also tell Mr. Fehr he also must retire. Clean sweep it must be.

MR. MITCHELL: well, I don’t quite know what to say. They are above the…

MR. FLY: you must also divest yourself from the Boston Red Socks. Otherwise a conflict of interest.

MR. MITCHELL: whoa, wait just a minute Mr. Fly. This is about cheating, doping players, not…

MR. FLY: yes, some players did steroids and HGH to cheat. Others thought of it as a super-supplement or injury shortening medical treatment. Besides, most of the abusers are in their 20’s and early 30’s. Many of us make mistakes at that age…and for less reconstructive, mere recreational purposes. That does not mean me condone it. It’s bad for health and destroys the body and the game. Me just understands it, that’s all. After all, where would me be without a little transmutation and rock music?

MR. MITCHELL: what do drugs have to do with music? Anyway, what about the record books, the Hall of Fame, the level playing field and asterisks?

MR. FLY: Write a page in the baseball record books and display the information properly in the Hall of Fame explaining what happened to players in the steroid era and that all records should take that into consideration. Proven violators get a big fat asterisk or a boot from the Hall itself.

MR. MITCHELL: we must prosecute all of them. It’s the only way. They need to all talk and give up names and plea bargain. They need to squeal.

MR. FLY: oh, my no. That’s McCarthyism. That’s also how Stalin operated, with neighbors turning in their neighbors. No Senator, you should forgive them but do not accept any further excuses from Fehr or Selig or MLB. There must be the latest high-tech testing put to use and that begins before Spring Training 08. Everyone gets tested. That will end the era of shame, not crime and punishment of a few that were suspiciously gleaned from a few drug-dealing rats.

MR. MITCHELL: We have to name names to prove we tried to do something positive to the public and fans.

MR. FLY: Prove to public? Is this just MLB PR? Three wrongs don’t make right. Naming names resolves nothing. That would only tarnish the game further and spawn lawsuits for slander and defamation. Many players may be guilty but some may be innocent. Must not name names. No good would come from it because you’ll never name all names, just some. Those named will not have advance legal representation or a trial or a judge or jury yet they will be judged guilty in the court of public opinion. That is not fair and is not constitutional.

MR. MITCHELL: are you just a bleeding heart liberal gadfly wanting to legalize drug use and cheating?

MR. FLY: just the exact opposite, but me do believe in the Constitution…in innocent until proven guilty and giving benefit of doubt. Me also believe that the grown men making millions off of this sport that were fully aware of this activity for years and did nothing because of the monetary benefits of artificially gained home runs and longevity of certain pitchers and players were just as guilty as the kids taking the drugs…maybe more so. I also believe that your 509 page report is 100 pages too long. I crossed out the pages you should lose. If you name some player names and not all, then please take my name off of the report. Gotta fly…bye.

Mr. Fly abuzzes

By McFann

December 17, 2007 3:25 PM | Link to this

Did anyone notice TYIB Hitter of the Year? Lameo. Just ‘cause some Yankee hits 54 homers doesn’t mean he’s the best hitter. I voted for Chipper (duh), but no one I vote for ever wins or whatever. (Certain All-Stars not included…)

By McFann

December 17, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this

I agree with Lew on Not Right. He’s way overrated. Seriously. I mean, over 20 errors and a Gold-Glove? Yeah, he might be a nice guy, but I still don’t like him. He’s too good.

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

Hey, those of you who thought Javy Lopez should get a shot at the backup job — stay tuned. It’s possible it could happen.

By ncscoots

December 17, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this

Yeah, TPaul, but the money is just one way of keeping score. I don’t think Alex Rodriguez wants to be known as the “highest-paid player in the game” because it would allow him to buy one more Bentley; but because it says “I’m valued as the best player in the game”.

Pride is a much stronger emotion than greed, and players use the relative strength of contracts to judge each other. Then, they whip on their agents for not doing a better job of getting a bigger contract than Player B, LOL.

And while the actual extra purchasing power of an extra 5% over the size of some of the elite contracts thrown around now is minimal, it appears to be worth a whole lot when comparing one’s self to one’s peers.

Thus spake pseudo-Freud, and that’s our lesson for today. :-)

By MGL

December 17, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this

I think that Boras has been knocked back a step or two this offseason.

1)A-ROD debacle. In his interview this weekend (Sixty Minutes, I think) ststed that he was surprised about the WS announcement and had to take matters into his own hands. Now doesn’t speak to Boras.

2) Rogers firing Boras as it seemed he really did want to stay in Detroit.

3) From the sounds of it, Andruw told Boras to get him a deal in a friendly place (LA) even if it was short term.

Perhaps Tex has the message and keeps Boras on a tight leash, and if he would prefer to play in Atl, that’s where he will be.

By Daybed Wagmoe

December 17, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

some interesting paragraphs at the end of today’s Mets’ Mailbag :

…That said, Minaya has not addressed the team’s greatest need: starting pitching. And the need for that is far greater than it was before Tom Glavine departed. Fact is, the Mets haven’t brought in a starting pitcher of value since the trade on July 31, 2006, that imported Perez. And since then, they’ve lost Pedro Martinez for an extended period, and Glavine, Steve Trachsel and Brian Bannister for good.

Brian Lawrence, Chan Ho Park, Jason Vargas, Dave Williams and Humber combined for an 0-5 record in 11 starts last season. Pelfrey and Jorge Sosa started 27 games and produced a 10-14 composite record. Glavine’s 200 innings are gone, and the Mets’ rotation, at the moment, includes Orlando Hernandez, who always is an injury risk; Pelfrey, who has yet to throw 275 innings as a professional; Maine and Perez, who never have thrown 200 innings in a season; and 36-year-old Martinez, who is not likely to reach 200 innings.

Right now, the bullpen can expect to be overworked.

By ssiscribe

December 17, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

Certainly, Javy would get a non-roster invite to spring training, right? I loved Javy when he was here, but I just don’t see him making the team. His offensive skills have eroded the past three seasons and he always was a liability defensively.

Methinks it better to give Pena, Sammons or another veteran free agent a try. Just my humble opinion.

Hey, good thing the Braves didn’t sign Maddux, or else the battle for the No. 2 catcher would pit Damon Berryhill against Charlie O’Brien.

OK, back to work. Really, have nothing at all against Javy. He was a big part of the team’s success for a decade, but that time has certainly passed. He just hasn’t done anything in recent seasons to lead me to believe he’d be anything but a weak link on the bench.

—30—

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

December 17, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

DOB, Javy is possibly on his way back. Can he still play? Would he really be any better as a backup than Damian Miller or Corky Miller or Bryan Pena?

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

Here’s the JAVY LOPEZ story I just filed

By DAVID O’BRIEN

dobrien@ajc.com

Javy Lopez is back with the Braves.

The Braves signed their popular former catcher to a minor league free-agent contract with an invitation to spring training, where the 37-year-old will attempt a comeback and try to win a backup job behind Brian McCann.

Lopez hasn’t played since being released by Colorado during 2007 spring training, but the Braves think the three-time former All-Star might have enough left to give them a power bat off the bench.

He hit .251 with just eight homers and 35 RBIs in 94 games for Baltimore and Boston in 2006, then signed a $750,000 contract with the Rockies and got cut from the team in March.

It was less than five years ago when Lopez hit .328 with career-highs of 43 homers and 109 RBIs in his final season with the Braves in 2003.

Then he went to Baltimore as a free agent, and his production eroded rapidly.

Lopez made more than $60 million in 10 seasons from 1997 to 2006, including salaries of $6 million or more in each of the last seven seasons during that period. He would probably make about $1 million in base salary if he makes Atlanta’s major league team out of spring training.

The Braves also invited five other six-year minor league free agents to spring training Monday: catchers Corky Miller and J.C. Boscan, outfielder Joe Borchard, right-hander Jorge Campillo, and infielder Javier Guzman.

Braves pitchers and catchers report to camp on Feb. 14, and position players on Feb. 19. The first full-squad workout is Feb. 20 and newly renamed Champion Stadioum and Disney’s Wide World of Sports.

Lopez will compete for the backup job with Miller and rookie Clint Sammons, among others.

He was a crowd favorite during his 10 full seasons in Atlanta, who signed him as an amateur free agent out of Puerto Rico in 1987. Lopez hit 23 or more homers in six of his 13 full seasons in the majors, most recently in 2004 when he batted .316 with 33 doubles, 23 homers and 86 RBIs in 150 games.

He slipped to .278 with 15 homers and 49 RBIs in 103 games in an injury-plagued 2005 season with the Orioles.

By flange1

December 17, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

Afternoon All,

Interesting discussions over the last couple of days. I like the Fuentes discussion, even if the deal doesn’t happen. One of things I think the Braves need to consider is moving some of the quantity they have for quality, and I think Fuentes is an upgrade.

Been thinking a lot over the weekend about the make up of the team, I know it is early and there are more moves to make, but here is what I am thinking:

LF platoon Diaz/B Jones

CF Platoon Anderson/ R Davies

RF Frenchy

1B Tex, 2B KJ, SS Yunel, 3B Hoss, C Big Mac

SP Smoltz, Hudson, Glavine, Hampton, JJJ

BP Soriano, Moylan, Ohman, Acosta, Boyer, James, Bennett

Bench D. Miller (C), Infante, Aybar + 2 OF in platoons

That gives us Thorman, Yates, Prado, G. Blanco and B. Pena in a group of players that can be used to help upgrade other positions.

SF is said to be looking for relief pitching and a 1B. Maybe Thorman + a BP arm for R. Davies? That would solve our “stop gap” in CF and give us a future trade chip when Schafer is ready.

I still like the idea of having Bennett and Chuckie in the pen to be used in long relief mainly and to fill in for an older starter who might need to skip a turn. I think both should be used to start innings, not to come in with runners on base. When Hampton and Glavine leave after next year, these guys can move into the rotation.

It would not bother me to see any or all of the “move” guys traded to upgrade anyone on the 25 man roster.

I also think that Lillibridge Schafer and Sammonds should be at Richmond next year as the next group of kids to move to Atlanta. I would let Lillibridge play SS 4 games a week 2B for a game and 3B for a game.

I think the Braves are going to have to decide on KJ or Lillibridge as their 2B in the next couple of years. Hoss will be here until he retires and Escobar will show his class next year so unless KJ can learn first or Hoss moves to first, either KJ or Lillibridge is a man without a position.

Thoughts?

By phil niekro

December 17, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

tom glavine, javier lopez, hey what about me? i guarantee i will put fans in the seats. i probably could even convince dale to come back and try to beat out stop gap for the cf job. yeah thats the ticket.

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

Don’t know if he can still play, but he’s been working out with Chino (bench coach) for two months and Chino reported to Frank that he’s made big progress defensively.

So we’ll see. It’s only about $750,000 if he makes the team, by the way.

By Lew

December 17, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this

TenPaul and Scribe-Sorry guys. Y’all won your Wurlitzers on the same day and I mailed them at the same time. I usually get them-not you-mixed up. The point remains-Wright will never win one. Not for less than a signed bat for the museum, anyway.

By timmythebrave

December 17, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

If it’s only about money there is no way that Tex is a Brave next year. I think his wife and family are from the Atlanta area and they really like it here. If the braves offer a good contract I think he will take it. If it’s the prize to the highest bidder than he will be a yankee like everyone else.

By Wren

December 17, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this

Oh what the hell Phil, we’re gonna give Lance Neikro a shot.

By CharlieAlphaBravo

December 17, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

Okay, my internet connection has been down, so let me catch up real quick… Steroids, bad… Fuentes, good… Zeppelin, best of all time.

Overall, most of you denizens have been keeping your heads up, but those top-ten album lists… Daybed has it figured out. Can’t push that Arcade Fire album “Neon Bible” enough. DOB, if you want to give Ween a chance, their essential album would have to be “Chocolate & Cheese.” Pick that one up and you’ll know whether or not to give them another shot. And I’m not normally one to criticize others’ music taste, but seriously guys… #1 Of Montreal or Duran Duran… There was more testosterone in “Purple Rain” (great album, by the way), and more talent in… well… just about anything. Linkin Park? Seriously?? Like I said, I don’t like being critical, but this is absolute crap. That’s right, poo. I feel like I did when I canceled my “Blender” (Maxim music magazine) subscription. They ranked “Madonna’s Greatest Hits” as the #1 American Rock album of all time. “Blonde on Blonde” was #2. Gag! Spit! Choke! Sorry, I have that reaction every time I tell that story…

Anyway, glad to be back and get that off my chest.

By rammerjammer

December 17, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

I do recall Tex being quoted last year that, in so many words, Boras worked for him and not the other way around.

We will see how it plays.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

December 17, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

Well, I would think Javy has to tear the cover off the ball in spring training to make the team. His defense has always been suspect so his benefit to the team would be offense. Sammons and Miller provide way better defense.

My guess is however with Bobby as the manager its Javy’s job to lose. He would have to be beyond pathetic offensively not to make the team. I just hope this isn’t Brian Jordan or Raul Mondesi all over again.

By timmythebrave

December 17, 2007 4:29 PM | Link to this

flange1, I wouldn’t use pen when writing that Hampton will be the #4. You are likely to be disappointed. I heard the over under of the amount of pitches that Hampton throws in real games is 74. You might have to put Chuckie at #5. Just my thought on the matter

By JC FROM UT

December 17, 2007 4:32 PM | Link to this

I guess this means Damian Miller is not going to sign with the Braves.

By CharlieAlphaBravo

December 17, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this

Let me be clear about something… I’m not one of those guys who thinks that rock must be Metallica to be good. I love all sorts of “manly” and “girly” rock, but Duran Duran and Of Montreal are neither. They’re just manure… pure and simple.

On a brighter note… Javy’s back! Good for him, just don’t tell my girlfriend…

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 17, 2007 4:45 PM | Link to this

I doubt Estrada is going to get an invite to camp either…..

By Braveheart

December 17, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this

Javy ain’t great anymore but it’s not like the backup catchers here besides Salty the last few seasons have been all that great anyway. With McCann, there is not much of a need for a backup catcher so Javy can’t hurt that much if he stinks it up.

By Steamboat

December 17, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this

I just don’t see the Javy thing. I mean, no harm (except money), I guess in giving the guy an opportunity. But…

Most starting catchers are at best mediocre hitters if they played somewhere else on the field. And backup catchers, well, if they were great hitters, they’d probably be starting somewhere.

So you know you’re gonna have an offensive dropoff when you rest your No. 1. Okay, live with that, and put in the best defensive guy you can find, so you don’t create two shortcomings, on those one of six games or so that you rest the starter.

Personally, I’d like to see Sammons as the No. 2 catcher; and Pena make the team as backup to 1B (and maybe some other positions); and emergency catcher. Then you could comfortably use his bat off the bench.

And in those games McCann doesn’t start, you could use him off the bench, because you’ve still got Pena if needed. Oh, and trade Thorman for whatever we can get; he’s not gonna get better playing behind Tex, and I think he’s out of options (?).

Anyway, maybe Javy has discovered the fountain of youth and can be a solid player for us. Hope it works out, just doubt it.

By phil niekro

December 17, 2007 4:50 PM | Link to this

WREN,

bob horner’s thumb has finally healed so when we dont resign tex he can be our stop gap 1st baseman, what do you mean he will have to battle julio for the job? horner’s been a fan favorite since he stopped champ summners in his tracks. remember that fight with san diego in the 80s and he hit four homers in a game. i also heard that belliard has taken some time off from his art gallery in miami and is ready to be our defensive specialist.

braves baseball, AARP card required.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 17, 2007 4:53 PM | Link to this

CharlieAlphaBravo I was just thinking the same thing about Javy. Let’s see…. Braves move the backstop closer to home plate and now Javy…. Sounds like a plan to me. Heck, a backstop that can hit .260 and also play a bit of fist base. Might be a bit more expensive than Bryan Pena but I would suspect Javy is a new and slimmed down version of himself. Should make spring training fun….. And he is a right hander with power off the bench. Seems to me everybody has a bad year in Baltimore, it’s in the water…..

By Metropolitan Man

December 17, 2007 5:05 PM | Link to this

Daybed Wagmoe

You are the king of spin and its expected. No need to continue what we have going on. You my friend will get a great dose of the Glavine decline. Its only right he started as a brave, he should finish as a brave. But to bring home a point here….I’ll take the 2007 version of Perez or Maine over the 2007 version of Santana any season. See, you seem to be caught up on names, and innings. So you will take a 10-13 guy with an era of 3+ as oppose to a 15-10 guy because his era is at around the same, 3+ but just pitched less innings???? Yeah he taxed the bullpen but it seems to me that the guy gave his team a chance to win and actually got the win. So take your innings guys with the same ERA, just more innings pitched and less wins. I know logic says differently but you need to think outside the box. Oh, and do I have to produce articles that prove Minaya is not going to give up the farm for a possible 1 season rental??? He is ok with what we have but looking to improve with wins, not innings!!!! Thats why Silva,Hernandez and other free agent pitchers are not METS and still free agents. Its 2 easy to go out and sign an innings eater, but give me wins.

By EM

December 17, 2007 5:06 PM | Link to this

Wow…Tex could get 7 yrs, 140M. but it says the braves may actually spend it. story below:

http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2007/12/17/let-the-mark-teixeira-rumors-begin/

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 5:09 PM | Link to this

Gil, he’s actually not much more expensive than Pena or Miller.

Javy will only make $750,000 if he makes the team coming out of Dark Star. Hardly a big gamble here, since he’s a non-roster invite.

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 5:13 PM | Link to this

Steamboat, I had the same reaction regarding a marginal defensive catcher as backup.

I asked Wren about that and about the idea of a “mentor” type for McCann, and he said they don’t really think McCann needs one at this stage of his career, and that Chino Cadahia told him Javy looks better behind the plate now than when he left the Braves after the 2003 season (I know, I know — not exactly Johnny Bench when Lopez left the Braves).

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 5:15 PM | Link to this

CharlieAlphaBravo, I had a free subscription to Blender one year, probably read five paragraphs. Didn’t renew. It’s geared toward teens, I quickly realized. And Duran Duran? Come on, they were cheesy 25 years ago, not to mention now.

But gotta disagree with you completely on Arcade Fire. Terrific band, and both of their albums are outstanding.

By TennesseePaul

December 17, 2007 5:15 PM | Link to this

I know logic says differently but you need to think outside the box

Wow. Now that is a classic line.

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 5:19 PM | Link to this

At this point of the day, I’ll probably just wait and write a new blog for tomorrow morning. Was about to write one this afternoon when I got word of Lopez signing.

By Metropolitan Man

December 17, 2007 5:23 PM | Link to this

This will make TEX change his mind!!!!!

http://pictures.sprintpcs.com/share.do?invite=iEFrJPmhk8UrCaDLo0bh&shareName=MMS&messageState=RETRIEVED

By McFann

December 17, 2007 5:23 PM | Link to this

Javy back? Weird. That could be int’resting…but it would be nice to have a backup catcher who’s good defensively. But is there such a thing available? I don’t know…I do think McCann’s gonna be better in ‘08 than he was in ‘07 at catching base-runners. We’ll see, I guess. I was right about his eyesight bein’ a big problem. Knew he was gonna have Lasik. Don’t know how I did…how in the world? Sorry about the paragraph. That wasn’t intended.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)

December 17, 2007 5:23 PM | Link to this

I wonder if the Braves even considered Miguel Olivo or Johnny Estrada before signing Javy Lopez to a minor league contract ?

By mo in the boonies

December 17, 2007 5:28 PM | Link to this

When considering who was the most valuable to the team, I just asked myself, who was the one guy that the team couldn’t do without last season? The one who they would have gone right down the toilet without? The answer was simple: Smoltz! They did manage to survive without Chipper for many games….too many.

Steamboat regarding the use of HGH for health reasons, I have two bad knees, that I’m putting off surgery on, and trust me, all I can get is a cortisone shot every six months. No HGH. Those ball players were getting prescriptions from hack doctors or just ordering from a hack Pharmacy in another State than theirs. Or had a pusher obtain them for them. Big names work miracles!

Braveheart I was only pointing out that Justice may have paid in cash, instead of by check. Even though it was suggested that he had paid by check, no one really knows for sure except him and his pusher. If his name was thrown in the pot, he must be under suspicion as well as the others.

TC I wasn’t singling Justice out from the other guilty parties. I was merely saying if we jump on one for doing steroids, then we must jump on them all, no playing favorites just because they were on our team. Which is exactly what you believe, I think. And that includes all the ones who are still guilty but not been found out yet.

TenPaul I too must be counted among those who don’t think Texeira will be with the Braves after this season….reason, not enough money in the Braves kitty. And no desire from the owners to supply more.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

December 17, 2007 5:30 PM | Link to this

With all due respect, DOB, I heard the same crap last spring when the Rockies signed him. However, in fairness, I think he was doomed from the start becaue the Rox wanted to go with their young catchers. I never understood that signing in the first place.

I have a hard time believing Javy looks better now behind the plate than five years ago. That just doesn’t seem plausible.

By Steamboat

December 17, 2007 5:33 PM | Link to this

DOB, thanks for the background info. Sure it’ll work out, one way or another… good luck and welcome back to Javy!

By DonCoburleone

December 17, 2007 5:35 PM | Link to this

Javy Lopez? Are the Braves serious? Did we not learn our lesson over the last few years about bringing in old washed up veterans that no other team in baseball wants? (Mondesi, Jordan, Redman, Woodward, Wilson)… I mean, even if Lopez went back on the juice I doubt he would be worth $750k.

By Braveheart

December 17, 2007 5:39 PM | Link to this

Metroman, did I really need to see a picture of your dirty Mets towel hanging from your window? Don’t think that is gonna make Tex change his mind.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 17, 2007 5:46 PM | Link to this

mo in the boonies Good luck with your knees. Make sure you get a first teamer if you have an operation. My right knee finally recovered but after two tries my left knee is FUBAR. And don’t let them fool you on the cortisone shots. Unless they are put exactly where the problem is, they don’t work too well.

By Saltywoody

December 17, 2007 5:57 PM | Link to this

When Tex leaves after next year, Wren would do well to invest in some rubber gloves and toilet paper.

Because with Tex, Glavine, Smoltz and the rest leaving, we’re are going to get our a*******es handed to us on a consistent basis.

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 6:03 PM | Link to this

Donc, all of the guys you mentioned were signed to major league contracts and were counted on to produce. Lopez is a non-roster invitee signed to a minor league contract. How in the world could it be a big mistake signing him? If he stinks in spring training, you release him just like Colorado did. Nothing lost.

By Braveheart

December 17, 2007 6:07 PM | Link to this

It’s the backup catcher folks. Calm the hell down!

It’s a spring training invite folks. Calm the hell down!

They are not giving Javy anything more than a shot at making the team. How does that upset people?

Know how many at bats the backup catcher got for the Braves in 2007? 127!

Know how many at bats the backup catcher got for the Braves in 2006? 150!

That’s nothing comparable to Mondesi or Brian Jordan.

So, calm the hell down!

Know what the Braves record the last 2 years has been when McCann does not start? 31-46.

21-35 if you don’t count Salty.

McCann is too important offensively not to attempt to replace what he does offensively with someone like Javy.

The idea of a defensive catcher as a backup is such a tired cliche. The backup catcher does not play enough to make enough of an impact defensively. But the backup catcher’s bat can have an impact. The last thing the Braves need is another useless stick sitting on the bench.

Javy may be a useless stick at this point. He certainly looked like that in 2006 with the Orioles and Bosox. However, the Braves don’t exactly get great defense at catcher in 130 of their games. What’s another 30 games of average to bad defense behind the plate gonna hurt?

And on a team like the Braves where the catcher is such an integral part of their offense, the Braves really can’t afford to just put a good glove, no stick guy behind the plate as a backup. It is too harmful offensively. The last two seasons have proven that true.

By McFann

December 17, 2007 6:08 PM | Link to this

Mr. Wren is correct. McCann doesn’t need a “mentor.” He’s got on the best attitudes of anyone on the team. Now, if this were someone like Escobar, then, yeah, he’d need a mentor. But not McCann. He’s way beyond his years. It won’t be long (a couple years) before he’s a mentor to some young star.

But that’s just my sometimes-warped opinion.

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 6:10 PM | Link to this

I should add, Donc, Robert (JIB), others: I’d agree with you signing Javy is a mistake — IF the Braves signed him to a major league contract. They did not. He doesn’t take a roster spot, doesn’t cost them anything unless and until he makes the team. So on the outside chance he’s got something left, how is that not a reasonable gamble? Actually, I take that back — how is it even a gamble? For it to be a gamble, don’t they have to cost themselves something if he fails?

And I asked Wren about whether that’s it for catching, and he said no, if something else comes along they’ll consider it just as they have so far. He just doesn’t see much out there that’s worth the price. D. Miller didn’t get the pulse jumping. They didn’t see what he’d bring other than veteran presence, since he hasn’t hit for some time now. They’d like a bat off the bench, and believe Lopez might have something left. Don’t know what else to tell you other than, it’s a minor league contract, folks. Non-roster invite….

EM, you should read our blog here more often before linking a story that says absolutely nothing more than has been said here (and by Bowman) all fall and winter.

By Metropolitan Man

December 17, 2007 6:10 PM | Link to this

Wow, Javy Lopez didnt come up on the list so he decided to give it 1 more try. How nice of him…..With a name like Lopez, if he succeeds, he will be a MET in 2009, just ask Minaya.

By McFann

December 17, 2007 6:17 PM | Link to this

True, Braveheart, true. I don’t think anyone is “offended” that Javy returning. But excuse me? “Average bad defense”? What are you trying to imply, anyway? McCann’s not “average bad”, he’s just…not…that…good…um! Let me think………Like I said, McCann’s gonna be better in ‘08…that is, unless some dumbbell runs him over or something like that.

By Metropolitan Man

December 17, 2007 6:19 PM | Link to this

this text will be bolded Braveheart

Towel is from Chumper. He gave it to us METS fans in return for naming rights of his kid. We also use it to swat braves fans when WE leave da Turd!!!!

By McFann

December 17, 2007 6:23 PM | Link to this

Did anybody see the movie Facing the Giants? Now that was good movie. It goes right up there with Angels in the Outfield on my list of favorite non-Christmas movies. That’s where I found out about Third Day.

By Saltywoody

December 17, 2007 6:25 PM | Link to this

Javy will be great this year, assuming that his source for HGH wasn’t David Justice or Dambroski.

By David-ATL14

December 17, 2007 6:30 PM | Link to this

This Lopez signing is why I mentioned Oliva as a possible backup the other day DOB.

Now Oliva’s price may be too high, or he may want to sign where he gets more playing time. Wren had given earlier indications he wasn’t necessairly in the hunt for the grizzled vet (no bat defense only) backup.

This move is no risk with a small chance of some reward. Still wouldn’t be surprised to see someone else in the mix before ST.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 17, 2007 6:34 PM | Link to this

And if you haven’t already heard enough about steroids, my wife made a very good point to me about the entire steroids Brouhaha…. It was not baseball that really raised the issue of steroids, it was the International Olympics Committee. When they kept testing and finding examples of raised testosterone levels especially in female athletes, and developed test to help detect designer steroids, a lot of what the found led back to BALCO.

Because of Barry Bonds’ link to BALCO, MLB became embroiled in the debate. I am inclined to think after sitting back and looking at how all this came about that baseball really did not have a problem with steroids use, just the perception that some of the players were cheating and this made MLB look bad.

By Wayne in UT (Javy is the Best!)

December 17, 2007 6:34 PM | Link to this

No problem giving Javy a shot in the spring. Can’t really lose on this one.

Besides, it might put more female fannies in the seats in Spring Training.

By test

December 17, 2007 6:36 PM | Link to this

this text will be bolded test

By Bryan

December 17, 2007 6:44 PM | Link to this

Metro - i have that same towel, but instead of hanging on my wall i keep it “handy” just underneath my bed …

Ohh, and by the way Mets Sign Free Agent!

By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)

December 17, 2007 6:44 PM | Link to this

Joe Borchard is now the official dark horse candidate to win the CF job , lol !

By Jeff Foxworthy

December 17, 2007 6:54 PM | Link to this

You might be a redneck if you hang dirty Met towels in your window.

By Metropolitan Man

December 17, 2007 7:20 PM | Link to this

Bryan….now thats funny ish right there. Funny link, dont know who had so much time on their hands but that is a histerical link.

By Jared

December 17, 2007 7:22 PM | Link to this

My objection to trading James is that Hudson is the ONLY reliable starter after 2008.

Geez, Smoltz STILL has doubters? “Oh he is terrible, trade him”, “why he is starting game seven again?”, “don’t sign Smoltz, that money can go to Javy Lopez”, “he can’t come back from surgery and pitch well”, “he can’t be a starter again” were all among the many complaints about Smoltz throughout his career. And just like with all of them, the “Smoltz is over 40 now” will go the same way.

I’m not saying Smoltz can pitch forever, but I think he’ll be just fine in 2009 and 2010…and Smoltz has options in his current contract for both those years.

By Jared

December 17, 2007 7:23 PM | Link to this

My objection to trading James is that Hudson is the ONLY reliable starter after 2008.

Geez, Smoltz STILL has doubters? “Oh he is terrible, trade him”, “why he is starting game seven again?”, “don’t sign Smoltz, that money can go to Javy Lopez”, “he can’t come back from surgery and pitch well”, “he can’t be a starter again” were all among the many complaints about Smoltz throughout his career. And just like with all of them, the “Smoltz is over 40 now” will go the same way.

I’m not saying Smoltz can pitch forever, but I think he’ll be just fine in 2009 and 2010…and Smoltz has options in his current contract for both those years.

By Bryan

December 17, 2007 7:33 PM | Link to this

Metro, that was my handiwork… took about 2.5 min … THANKS!

PS the towel made me laugh out loud … it was tough to admit

By Bryan

December 17, 2007 7:34 PM | Link to this

Metro, that was my handiwork… took about 2.5 min … THANKS!

PS the towel made me laugh out loud … it was tough to admit

By Daybed Wagmoe

December 17, 2007 7:37 PM | Link to this

MetroMan:

who’s the 10-13 guy with an era of 3+? or is that a typo and you meant to type 15-13? i’m assuming it’s the latter…santana’s 2007 era was 3.33; maine’s (again, i’m assuming that you’re talking about maine) was 3.91. you say that their ERAs are around the same — almost six-tenths of a run isn’t around the same. as for taking the 15-13/3.33 era over the 15-10/3.91 guy, yes, i would. like i said before, the W-L record isn’t the best indicator of how good the pitcher is; while it’s very useful, it’s not the best. ERA and WHIP are more representative. for example, 6 of santana’s losses (that’s almost half) were quality starts (0-3 ER with 6 IP); only 1 of maine’s losses was a quality start. santana gave up more than 4 earned runs in any one performance only twice the entire year; maine did so five times.

santana had, by his standards, an “off year,” and that was still better than most pitchers. he finished 5th in the cy young voting for a reason, after all. maine and perez pitched very well this season (i do think that), but they weren’t very consistent. as for taking a 2007 maine/perez over the 2007 santana, to me that’s a no-brainer for santana. if i’m the manager, i can pencil santana in for at least 6 innings (probably more) every time he goes out; if it’s maine and it’s the first half, i can count on a dominating performance, but if it’s the second half, i’m wondering what’s wrong with the guy who was my team’s best pitcher for three months and telling my bullpen guys to be ready; if it’s perez, i’m wondering how many he’ll walk and which version it’ll be, the pittsburgh perez or against-atlanta perez.

but hey, you’ll think what you think and i’ll think what i think and none of it will affect the game in the least.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

December 17, 2007 8:03 PM | Link to this

I read a list of 70 players rotworld.com named in the winter league. Some Braves were among those 70 players (Thorman, Bennett, Blanco, and B. Jones) Jones is hitting well and hitting with power. It seems the only disappointment is his basestealing. Just 2 stolen bases in 7 attempts. Not very good.

Scott Thorman is being Scott Thorman. He has hit some homers (8) but has struckout a ton. They speculated he just may get cut in the spring.

They had some praise for Jeff Bennett, who picked up where he left off in September.

Gregor Blanco was the diamond in the rough. He’s hitting for a high average with a OBP of .441 I believe. He has actually hit 4 Hrs. The only criticism was his poor basestealing percentage to which I say who cares because its not as if Bobby likes to steal or play hit and run anyway.

By Metropolitan Man

December 17, 2007 8:11 PM | Link to this

Daybed Wagmoe

I understand the factuation with Santana, everyone would love to have him but at what price? All I know as a METS fan too many pitchers are now startes for other teams who could help the METS now. Santana makes things look easy, Maine and Perez made it look hard and easy at times but brought home the W’s. I’m just not sold on everybody thinking Glavines departure has made a team go from 1 win away from the division to 3rd place. The philthies slugged their way to a title, not that any team should follow that format, but in the NL east, two 15 gamers and 2 vets who can grind out a win is a good start.

The matchups probably will look like this:

Smolzt V Martinez Maine V Hudson Duque V Glavine Perez V ?? Pelfrey/Hubner/Mulvey VJames/Jurries/Reyes???

Sounds like a great 2008 to me barring any more trades. I think the METS, braves, and philthies GM are all ok unless one of these teams make a pitching move that requires the other to react.

Hey Brya, can you make one with Chippers face on the rear of that puppy?????

By CharlieAlphaBravo

December 17, 2007 8:22 PM | Link to this

DOB: I may have been sort of confusing during that music rant earlier, but I was blinded by the harsh reality that “Of Montreal” have convinced someone else they are actually any good. What I was trying to say was that I am indeed a huge fan of Arcade Fire, and that Daybed’s list was great. “Neon Bible” might, in fact, top my 2007 top ten. Sorry for the misdirection.

By Daybed Wagmoe

December 17, 2007 8:46 PM | Link to this

MetroMan — what’s factuation? is that like infatuation? ;)

i’m not talking about the mets getting santana or rubbing it in that the trade hasn’t been accomplished (which i don’t think it will be). i’m using santana as an example in the discussion of whether wins and losses are the bottom line, and how much they really say about a pitcher. i do agree that all 3 NL east GMs (the competing ones, at least) are okay — none of the three rotations really blow the other ones out of the water. that said, the mets have lost a valuable piece in glavine as a leader, a mentor, and just a good pitcher. you might say that it’s addition by subtraction, but it’s not: glavine was valuable to the team, and the mets’ 2008 rotation would be better with him in it. i also think that the braves’ rotation has improved very much with the additions of glavine and jurrjens. as for the phillies’ rotation, i don’t know enough about their offseason moves but brett meyers’ return should help.

charliealphabravo - thanks for the compliment about the list. sorry if i haven’t seen it, but have you posted your 2007 top ten yet?

By uga-brave

December 17, 2007 8:59 PM | Link to this

the braves have nothing to lose by giving javy a chance. guys he cant be any worse then todd pratt. you will know pretty fast this spring if he can still catch, though it is strange that he did not even get a call after being cut by the rockies.

By Metropolitan Man

December 17, 2007 9:01 PM | Link to this

Yes, infactuation, that was the word and correct spelling I was looking for. I see you see the light, no need to press for pitching until your rival GM’s in the division make a move. As far as Glavine, I saw enough of him in a METS uniform to know that he has no more re-inventing left in his tank. Your boy Glavine will have a .500 or below stats for 08, and we hope he goes for another season as a brave. Who knows, he may pitch 200 plus innings and win only 8-10 games.

By CharlieAlphaBravo

December 17, 2007 9:03 PM | Link to this

Daybed: Not yet… working on it, but realizing I may not have been listening to enough new music in 2007 to compile a respectable top ten. Maybe I’ll do a top eight or something, but I’ll post it in the next blog. ‘Til then.

By Jared

December 17, 2007 9:28 PM | Link to this

Sounds like the Braves aren’t getting Fuentes (Astros too with the trade of Valverde). No money and it’d probably take something like Chuck James and a relief pitcher of some sort, like Blaine Boyer. I doubt the Braves would give up Acosta or a reliever likely to be just as good, if not better than Fuentes next season.

Link

“The Rockies made him available during the winter meetings but wanted a major-league starting pitcher and reliever in return.

The Houston Astros, New York Mets and Atlanta Braves expressed interest. The Mets were the most serious, offering Aaron Heilman. A Braves official said they still like Fuentes, but don’t see the fit on either his salary or the parts they could give up. Fuentes will make more than $5 million in his final year of arbitration.”

By McFann

December 17, 2007 9:39 PM | Link to this

Hey, Met Man, why do you always type “Mets” in all capitals?

By mr baseball

December 17, 2007 9:56 PM | Link to this

Braveheart: Nice job re Javy’s signing. We definitely have some hysterical types here. If Lopez has anything left he would be a very nice fit as backup.

The Braves need a RH hitter with some pop who only needs to start 25-30 times, can pinch hit when needed and maybe back up at 1B in an emergency. They don’t need a young kid to waste away on the bench or a defensive specialist who is of no use off the bench in extra innings.

Lopez was never an accomplished defensive catcher, but he was more than adequate. Other than Maddux,no starter had a problem with him, and the pitching never suffered when he was behind the plate.

No offense, Coach, but you picked the 2 least likely catchers for the Braves to sign. Olivo & Estrada are both starting caliber catchers, or at the least, semi-regulars. There’s no way either one would consider coming here and sitting 130-140 games, and both would make way too much money to be once a week starters. Think before you post, although in your case, the former may be too great a burden to overcome.

After the way he performed in limited duty late last season, Corky Miller would be acceptable in a backup role, but maybe not for an entire season. I think the Braves have pretty much made the statement that Pena is unlikely to be the backup, amd with the acquisition of Infante, he isn’t needed as a utility player.

Maybe a package including some or all of Thorman, Pena, Prado & Boyer could get the Braves a functional CF who could split the job with Anderson. Probably not.

By Steamboat

December 17, 2007 10:28 PM | Link to this

Maybe a package including some or all of Thorman, Pena, Prado & Boyer could get the Braves a functional CF who could split the job with Anderson. Probably not.

Who’s your backup 1B in that scenario?

I still say Pena should be on this team. He has a good bat (off the bench); can play several positions (including 1B, 3B, LF); and would serve as an emergency catcher. Doesn’t matter if the No. 2 catcher is Lopez or Sammons, or someone else… Pena is a good hitter who can play many positions, and free up a roster spot (Thorman).

By Brad in MT

December 17, 2007 10:36 PM | Link to this

Steamboat, I completely agree. I would much rather see Pena on the team than Thorman, he can play all over the place and has a much more consistent bat. I would rather have a guy like him on the bench than an all or nothing guy like Thorman.

By Roman Gal

December 17, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this

Wayne You are right! I already want to go buy season tickets…right behind home plate if ya know what I mean ;)

By Ken Stallings

December 17, 2007 10:54 PM | Link to this

Dave I am wondering your views regarding David Justice in terms of his recent denials?

I am inclined to believe he is telling the truth for two reasons. First, physically when Justice retired he looked much the same as he did as a rookie player. He certainly did not appear to gain much muscle mass and did not have the big head look about him.

Second, his career ended early due to injury and his production fell off noticeably. HGH and steroids are consumed to counter those age effects. Since Justice clearly did suffer from those effects, it tends to back up his denials.

Justice did exhibit massive stupidity in one regard, and he’s likely to agree with that statement himself.

He’s the only man dumb enough to cheat on Hallie Berry! I mean that’s plenty stupid to define stupid for any one lifetime!

By chrisklob

December 17, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this

Ken Stallings, He certainly did not appear to gain much muscle mass and did not have the big head look about him.

Neither did Rafael Palmeiro. He denied any involvement in steroids and shortly afterwards failed a drug test. Just proves the old saying “never judge a book by its cover”.

By Overlord

December 17, 2007 11:14 PM | Link to this

Shaun, I would have to agree on most of your choices, but there are some players i think you have chosen that are not my choices.

  1. Wright: Reyes i think is the mets MVP. This means, Reyes is the player that is most important for the mets. Wright has better numbers, but it is CRISTAL CLEAR that mets do as Reyes does. They just cant find a replace for that guy. Wright showed he is more reliable than Reyes, more consistent, but Reyes showed if you want to beat the mets, he is the guy you should not allow to get on base.

  2. ARod: do you really think it is easier for the yanks to replace Jeter or Posada than it is to replace ARod? ARod puts up numbers, tons, but he is not the heart and soul, i think Posada and Jeter have far more value to the Yanks. I cant deny ARod is one of the best players ever, but the yankees were better when he was not around (not saying its his fault all the sudden collapse).

All the other choices i agree. Rollins is the MVP of the phillies and Vlad for Angels.

What is funny is that on the players i disagree with you….. you chose them as league MVP.

Why would you pick them over the guys i mentioned?

I think when you chose those 2 players over my choices……. you were looking at STATS. So, werent you saying stats shouldnt be the most important aspect when the MVPs to look at? Did i got it the wrong way?

By uga-brave

December 17, 2007 11:20 PM | Link to this

steamboat,

dont think pena will be around next year. one thing about bobby, if he likes you he will figure out a way to keep you around i.e. lockhart, belliard, orr, lemke etc. if he does not, no chance. i am not saying he does not like pena, but it was corky miller backing up at catcher down the stretch last year.

i dont think bobby is a fan of blaine boyer either. boyer pretty much put the braves bullpen behind the 8 ball when he said his arm was sound during spring training 06. if you remember we started 06 on the road at l.a and san fran. boyer made all of two appearances before he blew his arm out.

just think our most effective relief pitcher the first half of 06 was KEN RAY.

By uga-brave

December 17, 2007 11:27 PM | Link to this

contrary to popular believe if bryan pena plays more then one inning for the braves at third base, we got big problems.

By Overlord

December 17, 2007 11:28 PM | Link to this

I also agree on peña over Thorman, it aint hard to find a 1b that can do better job than Thorman. But i have the feeling we will be watching Thorman at 1b, Cox likes the guy because he tries hard. Performance is not everything for Cox. Will is very important and Thorman has lots of it.

By Overlord

December 17, 2007 11:40 PM | Link to this

uga-brave, i dont think you can automatically say that about peña/Cox, but there could be some true in your words.

By uga-brave

December 17, 2007 11:42 PM | Link to this

overlord,

i agree thorman is a max effort guy. he reminds me of a really raw travis haffner. that being said he is not a great option off the bench in late game situations. he is basically useless against left handers.

By Steamboat

December 17, 2007 11:54 PM | Link to this

uga-brave, I don’t disagree, on either point. Pena would be a last resort at 3B (behind Aybar and probably Prado (if CJ went on the DL)), and probably in LF. But I think he could handle giving Tex 8 or 10 off days at 1B - and again, I think the guy can hit pretty well, so would be nice to have off the bench.

But, you’re right on about Bobby’s doghouse - it’s pretty much a terminal ward. And Pena may be in it (so may Devine, I fear). Good recall about Boyer and his concealed injury - I know Bobby was livid over that.

And we sure hustled both McBride and Davies out of town when Bobby got down on them for not throwing strikes. I didn’t disagree with unloading them, but man, it was like we were dumping stinking garbage.

Giving up Thorman would be tough: he probably doesn’t have much trade value because of last year, but he still may develop into a decent hitter. If he’s out of options, though, how’s he gonna develop while playing behind Tex? I dunno!

By David O'Brien

December 17, 2007 11:58 PM | Link to this

Jared, you said it with Smoltz at 7:22 — I think some folks here figure they’ll express skepticism year after year after year about his reliability, keep saying this is the year he breaks down, then when he finally does, at 44 or so, they’ll say, “See, that’s what I was worried about.” I mean, seriously….

Coach, Borchard is not going to win the CF job. That I’ll go out on a limb on and guarantee.

By DAP

December 17, 2007 11:58 PM | Link to this

mo in the boonies They did manage to survive without Chipper for many games….too many.

if you call finishing in third place surviving.

By David O'Brien

December 18, 2007 12:04 AM | Link to this

Anybody seen both parts of the Grindhouse double feature? I ask because I rented Planet Terror, the one Robert Rodriguez directed, with Rose McGowan and the machine-gun leg and Josh Brolin, and I really thought it was a cool movie.

Curious as to how good the Quentin Tarrantino half, the movie “Death Proof,” was by comparison. (You rent them separately at blockbuster)

By uga-brave

December 18, 2007 12:18 AM | Link to this

steamboat,

you are right. pretty much impossible for thorman to develop behind tex. with no options left the braves are between a rock and a hard place. no one is going to give you anything for him and he is a one dimensional bench type player.

bobbys dog house is hard to get out of. davies pretty much sunk himself when he aborted mcdowell’s new windup and mcbride had the makeup of a two year old. as for devine i think bobby likes him. he went up and down all year and never complained.i think devine has got potential. he may be finally over that terrible 05-06 stretch.

By TennesseePaul

December 18, 2007 12:24 AM | Link to this

the braves have nothing to lose by giving javy a chance. guys he cant be any worse then todd pratt

That’s an interesting thought exercise. What is worse Todd Pratt, Lopez, Raul, or Woodward?
So far Lopez is the only one who is/was not guaranteed to be on the team, so he’s already looking better.

By choppinmama

December 18, 2007 12:27 AM | Link to this

Javy Lopez redux? Alllriiight! Some genuine eye candy at spring training! Reason #30 to look forward to enjoying Braves baseball in the sunshine at the Dark Star.

By uga-brave

December 18, 2007 12:27 AM | Link to this

dob,

speaking of tarrantino i thought both the kill bill movies were underated. his movies are hit or miss but the kill bill movies were both quite good. guess you are going to see the jayhawks play tech? sure looks like unc, kansas, ucla, and memphis are the cream of the crop.

By KC

December 18, 2007 12:35 AM | Link to this

It’s a late response, but…

DOB and Lew: I never advocated traded Kelly Johnson. I merely said that if the Braves were to trade KJ, I think Lillibridge and Prado (one of them or together as a platoon) could capably man 2B. I don’t think there would be a hole there.

I’m not arguing that KJ’s bat wouldn’t be missed, and once again… I’m not advocating that they trade him. I never did.

By uga-brave

December 18, 2007 12:36 AM | Link to this

tennpaul,

i agree, but since it is either corky, clint, or javy a look cant hurt. a little off the subject but why did pat corrales leave after 06? i always heard he was very good at positioning our outfielders. i thought when he left he was retiring, but he was the bench coach with the nats last year.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)

December 18, 2007 12:37 AM | Link to this

If you needed an indication of the Braves plans at 1B behind Teixeira , look no further than Scott Thorman.

Tony Clark is still on the free agent market and the Braves have shown no indication that they have any interest in him. That should be a clue for those wondering who will be the backup at 1B.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)

December 18, 2007 12:55 AM | Link to this

O’Brien , I was joking about Borchard. The guy is a colossal bust.

The White Sox picked him 12th in the 2000 draft(1st round) and gave the guy a 5.7 million dollar signing bonus.

Guy’s like Borchard are living proof that talent alone does not make a big leaguer.

By Overlord

December 18, 2007 1:00 AM | Link to this

Thorman is gone……. thats the only option….. anything else is a waste of time for him and for the team.

By car3boogie

December 18, 2007 1:06 AM | Link to this

Just read an article on Gregor Blanco saying he had excellent speed but no Base running ability.

Who do the braves use as a base running Coach? or do they have one

By car3boogie

December 18, 2007 1:10 AM | Link to this

One other Thing, Javy signing was a no Brainer with no Risk. A lot of good free press in that signing also.

Would you rather talk about Javy or the Falcons? Good move at a good time.

By dragrace79

December 18, 2007 4:14 AM | Link to this

This Javy signing couldn’t have come at a more opportune time. Now, we have a solid piece to include in the Thorman, Prado, and now Javy deal to pry Santana away from the Twins. Trading these guys for just 1 season of Santana maybe mortgaging our future, but let’s win now. If that deal falls through, I read on the web that Arizona may be willing to flip Haren already if we throw in Barbaro Canizeras along with the afore mentioned players. Hot Stove season is upon us…buckle up!

By Yars

December 18, 2007 6:06 AM | Link to this

I’m hoping Wren now goes out & signs Klesko. He can back up 1B, & even some OF, & it would also give us a LH pinch hitter. I say Klesko would be a slight upgrade over Thorman. Thor was given every opportunity to prove himself last season. now playing: everyday is halloween by ministry.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)

December 18, 2007 6:30 AM | Link to this

Ya’ll just have to read this , it’s the flip side of drug addiction and inspiring.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2926447

By doc

December 18, 2007 7:45 AM | Link to this

as far as the lopez decision i only hope bobby can be truly objective in his assessment of what he can bring to the field and not get caught up too much in his give the vet the benefit of the doubt. we have seen that attitude blow up several times in the last few years to leave us with a very weak bench as the season unfolds when clearly better ballplayers were sent packing in deferring to the vet. like lopez but let him earn it on a neutral playing field, please bobby.

By ncscoots

December 18, 2007 8:53 AM | Link to this

Thorman, throughout his minor league career, struggled the first year at a level, then adjusted and raked the second year. Admittedly, turning that same trick at the ML level is a tad more difficult; plus, his winter league K rate does not inspire. But…

It’s hard to just kick that kind of slugging potential to the curb. Add in the looming specter of Teixeira leaving in 2009, and it’s easy to see why Thorman could still be on the club this year.

Seems to me his confidence went south last year, and his response to just swing harder. That just slowed his bat down, his hands got happy, his head was coming off the ball…heck, his mechanics just disintegrated. He looked nothing like the kid I had seen play in the minors. Agreed, 10 starts and pinch-hitting wouldn’t seem the optimum way for him to get his swing back in the groove, but, IMO, Braves have to hope he can find himself someway, somehow.

Having made this post now, of course, he gets traded January 2, LOL!

By David-ATL14

December 18, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this

Braves haven’t shown interest in Clark becuase he’s out of their price range for a single position bench player.Especially one that plays 1b only. Tex will be there 150-155 games. I still say Thorman gets shipped in ST and Pena stays as the multipositional backup who will also provide the ability to be the 3rd catcher.Also nice to have a switch hitter than can hit on the bench.

There is no need whatsoever for a single position backup that plays 1b only. A true waste of a roster spot.

By ssiscribe

December 18, 2007 9:36 AM | Link to this

And to chime in and add on to the Thorman talk: He’s not going to see time in left field, folks. He played there some in the past, but not next year, with Brandon Jones appearing to be the guy to platoon with Matt Diaz in left.

I, too, think Thorman is going to be moved in spring training. I also think the Braves are going to find a way to lock up Tex to a long-term deal after the 2008 season.

—30—

By Fred Secunda

December 18, 2007 9:45 AM | Link to this

DOB, if Lopez proves to hit well in Spring Training, I could see the Braves carrying three catchers on their 25-man if for no other reason than our pen looks pretty bleak. Lopez could provide a veteran presence to whomever would serve as the primary backup, be it Corky and Pena or Sammons. I could see this scenario unfolding. A bench of:

Lopez Infante Pena Aybar or Prado Jones/Diaz Thorman

That’s at least better than it was last year. Could you see this shaking down?

By Lew

December 18, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

KC-Yes, Prado or Lillibridge could man 2B quite capably-defensively-but could either of them hit as well as Kelly Johnson. Could either of them equal his power? Don’t think so. After losing Andruw’s and Edgar’s power numbers, Kelly Johnson’s loss would be too much more of a power loss.

Found out something interesting. It probably proves nothing but that only Shaun thinks stats are all that, but here goes (and yes, Shaun, I expect a foaming mouth reaction from you).

After hearing all day yesterday, numerous times, how bad Javy Lopez was defensively (and I remember him as sub par, myself), Icompared his career fielding stats to those of the greatest, Johnny Bench. Shock time, y’all. In 15 seasons, Javy’s Fielding percentage was .992. He had 96 passed balls (50 of which were by 1998). In 17 seasons, Bench’s F% was .987 and he had 94 passed balls.

Now make of these numbers what you will. I certainly don’t remember Javy as being that good. However, maybe he was nowhere near as bad as we would liked to have thought.

By ssiscribe

December 18, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

Braves will carry 12 pitchers (five starters, seven relievers). With eight position players starting, that leaves five spots on the bench.

Infante has one spot locked up. The backup catcher (be it Lopez, Sammons, Pena or Miller) is the second spot. Whoever doesn’t start in left on a particular day (Diaz or Brandon Jones) is the third spot.

That leaves two spots. One will be Aybar or Prado, or perhaps both Aybar AND Prado make the team, if Pena can show he can back up Teixeira at first base. Thorman, if he’s not traded in spring training, could get the final bench spot if Pena isn’t considered as the backup first baseman.

However it shakes out, I just don’t see two of the five bench spots going to backup catchers, unless Pena makes the team as a backup 1B/3B/C.

—30—

By AdirondackDave

December 18, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this

Coach — Your right about Borchard. He has an impressive baseball body and when he rips the ball it stays ripped. Unfortunately, he only seems to actually hit the thing once every 50 ABs or so. He would be a big surprise to me if he makes the roster. Stranger things have happen, though.

By Greg in TN

December 18, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

Morning lads and lasses…

Turn back the clock day at the ballpark may have additional meaning now that there’s the potential that the battery of the late nineties could be returning intact in the form of pitcher’s Smoltz and Glavine and catcher Javy Lopez.

I’m fine with signing Javy to a minor league deal and having him return to Dark Star and just see where he stands and if he’s able to help the team. Lew’s stats on how Javy compares to Johnny the Red is interesting, and I think there’s a lot of truth to his contention that Javy might have not been as bad behind the dish as everyone imagined. I don’t know if his game management skills (i.e. calling a game) have improved, however it’s not that big of a deal with a backup as it is with your primary backstop and even then, if the guy is lights out with the bat or solid with throwing out runners and blocking balls in the dirt, it’s something teams will live with too.

Will he stay or will he go? Thorman busts it every night, can’t say enough about that because I really appreciate a guy that hustles down the baseline, but I also believe that if the Braves have a need in ST and Thorman can be packaged in a deal, we’ll do it. Thorman is very effective in the field and his struggles at the plate last season are well documented. Perhaps a fresh start someplace else is what he needs, especially since he is a 1st baseman first and foremost. If Wren does deal him, it tells me he has a feeling that he can make a competitive offer to Tex next offseason.

With the Yankees likely in the mix along with the amazin’ mediocres, it’s a 50/50 shot at best keeping Tex, but I like the idea of building the team around this guy for the next 6-7 years.

By TennesseePaul

December 18, 2007 10:52 AM | Link to this

Anyone see this? I post this because I recall all those on here that were furious with the Mitchell Report for including claims that players such as Brian Roberts used ‘roids. It appears he did as he admits so much in the story. He also says he only did it once, but it seems to match up with the Mitchell Report. So far the report is proving to be fairly accurate.

By DAP

December 18, 2007 11:00 AM | Link to this

Lopez can play 1st base too, right? I think he has a pretty good chance of making the team, and i think we have to many players that can play multiple positions to hang onto thorman to back up 1st.

BUT, i think thorman will make the team because he is the only guy worthy of full-time 1st base in case tex gets hurt.

bench will be

Infante(2b, SS, 3b, OF)

Aybar(2b, 3b)

B. Jones(OF)

Thorman(1b)

Lopez(C, 1b)

So on the bench we have 1 Catcher (plus an emergency Catcher) 2 1st baseman, 2 2nd baseman, 2 3rd baseman, and 2 Outfielders.

Id like to carry pena instead of Thorman, but we need a true 1st baseman who can play in case Tex gets hurt.

By Josh

December 18, 2007 11:16 AM | Link to this

Deathproof was a really cool, but very offbeat movie…well, offbeat by today’s terms I guess. I read where it was edited down from over two hours long, not just to fit a double feature but to purposely make it loose some plot coherence. I actually enjoyed it just a little bit more than Planet Terror, but my favorite part of Grindhouse was the fake previews and commercials, I hope they include all that stuff on one/both of the DVD’s

By TennesseePaul

December 18, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this

DAP: Your list for the bench sounds about right. Lopez, to me, isn’t a lock just yet, but I think the rest are pretty much right. Aybar is real good with the bat. He’d be great off the bench and he has speed as well. And, like Scoots said, I think Thorman will be kept around due to the situation with Teixeira. Perhaps KK or Heyward are the future 1B of the Braves but they both seem years away.

I’d like to see Prado dealt. Not sure if I meantioned this but I’m not a fan of this guy. Hopefully he’ll have a good spring and become attractive to some one. Perhaps the Padres? They need a second baseman. Just so long as they don’t send Ledezma back this way.

By David O'Brien

December 18, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this

Alright folks, just compiled my best-of-2007 albums list (takes a while) and will put it in a new blog to come within an hour or so.

Josh, on the DVD they included the “Machete” trailor before Planet Terror. Great stuff. I heard someone’s actually making that into a full-length movie.

By David O'Brien

December 18, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

Fred Secunda, no I don’t see Cox carrying three catchers.

By chuckw/deadjournalist

December 18, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

after the lopez signing, my thoughts turned to signing klesko. why? because of flexibility.

the braves could use an upgrade off the bench. and has been well documented here, with the braves carrying 12 pitchers, flexibility is key.

as much as i too enjoy thorman’s all-out hustle, the bottom line is performance. and unfortunately he doesn’t have the options to go down and play every day at AAA with the braves. thorman is so much like mike hessman (sp) i wonder if they were scounted by the same person. good guys, good power, but AAAA players. hessman, i believe, was MVP while playing at detroit’s AAA team in ‘07. but he’s never been good enough to stick around full-time at the major league level.

which brings me back to klesko. i’m not suggesting we need to turn the clocks back 10 years, but he could have value as a role player. his last two full seasons (‘05 and ‘07) he played in pitcher’s parks, playing 100 games at 1B last year (bonds, winn in lf and rf respectively) and 121 games in lf in ‘05.

while he may only be a .250 hitter at this point in his career, he does provide flexibility to platoon in lf if b. jones struggles or to play first base if a minor or major injury bug bites teixeria.

chances are, he will get a major league offer. but if he doesn’t, he, too, would make a great sign on a minor league deal.

regardless of what happens with lopez, i still think pena has to win his way on the roster as the 3rd cather/back-up corner infielder/outfielder. not only can he catch - which means the ability to use lopez as a ph (if he makes the team) without fear of not having a back-up catcher - but he is also a switch-hitter. (and he has good speed for a catcher/average speed overall.)

when they were here, i wasn’t huge fans of klesko or lopez, and now i’m making a case for them. once again an example of never saying never.

By cricket

December 18, 2007 11:45 AM | Link to this

Brian Roberts admitted he used steroids. Robert(JIB), love your posts bro, but under surrent situation, I think you should switch back to CIB.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

December 18, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

I am beginning to wonder if it is just me or have all of you been watching different players with the same names stenciled on their jerseys?

The Braves are hanging onto Thorman for potential that has yet to show up. He does not play first base as well as Julio Franco and Julio is 49 years old. Yeah, we are still waiting for his bat to show up but until he shortens his swing he is going to remain a Dave Kingman type hitter.

Bryan Pena is not a great anything. He does have a decent bat and can play a serviceable defense and will likely be the guy on the bubble this year.

Aybar did not have a great winter ball season. I think Infante is going to be the utility guy this year, period.

I am incline to think the right handed power bat off the bench backup catcher/first baseman role is going to be his position to lose in spring training. I think Javy is going to be this years “Julio Franco” for the Braves.

On Brian Roberts admission, every time another guy who people said the evidence was flimsy against comes clean, gives more and more credibility to the report.

By Robert (Chipper Is The Best)

December 18, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

Sorry about that, Cricket. I post on two different computers and my one at home still had (Justice Is The Best). Should be corrected now.

By ppaddy123

December 18, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul I don’t think Aybar is going to make the roster. I think the Braves will try to trade him for a prospect. The guy needs a fresh start, and, the Braves really won’t need him this year with the signing of Infante.

By DAP

December 18, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

there is no way the braves get klesko! it would be too perfect! its just way to storybook to happen, but he really does seem like a pretty good fit for what we need.

By chrisklob

December 18, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

Anyone seen this story about Elijah Dukes yet? Anyone here still wish we’d traded for him?

Read it here

By Daybed Wagmoe

December 18, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

MetroMan: Yes, infactuation, that was the word and correct spelling I was looking for.

it’s infatuation. no C. neither infactuation nor factuation are words.

I see you see the light, no need to press for pitching until your rival GM’s in the division make a move.

easy there, guy. that’s not what i’m saying. i said that neither the mets’, braves’, or phillies’ rotations really blow the other ones away at this point, though i also followed that up with a “that being said…” piece. you’re saying that a team doesn’t need to push for pitching unless their rivals have done so. well, the braves have made 2 moves to help with their rotation (glavine and jurrjens), as have the phillies (if i’m not mistaken, they’re bringing meyers back to the rotation). both of those teams are the mets’ rivals, so wouldn’t it make sense (at least, according to your logic) for minaya to make a push for pitching?

as for minaya “being happy” with the rotation, that’s him singing a different tune now that a trade for santana, bedard or haren hasn’t worked out and doesn’t look like it will (though, who knows — i wouldn’t be surprised if one of those trades happens). at this point, there are question marks all over that rotation, especially with pedro as the ace. (i’m not saying that the braves’ rotation isn’t questionable, but it’s a helluva lot less so than the mets’.) i say “at this point” because i think that the mets will add another starter or two before the season starts, and maybe the rotation will be more solid. they need to, otherwise i think they’ll be in trouble next year.

and didn’t you say earlier that a pitcher’s real worth is in the playoffs? so, what good does a “good enough to beat my division opponents” rotation do for a team? it may help them get to the playoffs, but then what?

By Braveheart

December 18, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

From the looks of things, David Justice better stop demanding to see a copy of that check. They may just go through the bank records and locate that sucker.

It is rather odd that all of the guys without HOF potential are admitting to steroid abuse and all the guys with HOF potential are denying any and all steroid abuse.

By cricket

December 18, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul, I am with you on Thorman. The fact that he is still valued by many, does prove that chicks are not the only ones that love long ball. Many baseball executives and reporters also love the “potential” of long ball off the bench instead of any poor slob who would actually try to just hit instead of going for all the glory. Personally, give me a high OBP guy off the bench any day.

By TennesseePaul

December 18, 2007 12:35 PM | Link to this

ppdaddy123: They may trade him, I don’t know. But He’s good. If they keep him I hope he’s on the team. He’d make for a great bench. I’m not sure his troubles will be any more improved than they are. His time away was under suspension if I recall correctly. And, if I’m not mistaken, that type of time away postpones service time meaning the Braves have control over him for a little longer, or in another way, the Braves didn’t lose any of his time. Plus, the Braves have given players chances after bad habbits made them stumble. I think they’ll at least see what he can offer this spring. If he does well enough to make the team, he’ll be on it. If he does well enough to gain trade interest, I’m sure they’ll listen to that as well.
If he’s on the team the bench will be much improved over last year.

Player   AVG  OBP  SLG OPS+
Aybar   .292 .387 .416 108
Infante .253 .298 .386  81

By TennesseePaul

December 18, 2007 12:39 PM | Link to this

It is rather odd that all of the guys without HOF potential are admitting to steroid abuse and all the guys with HOF potential are denying any and all steroid abuse.

You’re not serious with this are you Braveheart? The crappy players who juiced have nothing to lose. The other guys are suddenly finding they are on the same boat as Mark McGwire. They have a lot to lose. Hence they deny.

By cricket

December 18, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

Sorry *Gil in Mechanicsville *, My previous post about Thorman was for you, not TennesseePaul.

By nOLIE

December 18, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this

Personally, give me a high OBP guy off the bench any day.Cricket

Give me a high OBP guy at every position and I don’t much care how many of them can hit a lotta homers. The braves had a run of those big fairly athletic powerful guys most of whome started out as third basemen, in Hessman,Helms, Thorman and another guy that they traded off I think to Chicago.did his name start with a B? It’s hell gettig old. anyway they drafted at least one of those types ‘bout every year for awhile. Only Helms has even come close to performing at all in the bigs so far

By Braveheart

December 18, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this

10Paul Yeah, I know. Instead of saying it is rather odd, I meant to say it is rather interesting to note that the players who are admitting are the ones without HOF possibilities while the ones with HOF possibilities continue to play stupid. Very interesting.

By ppaddy123

December 18, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul I just think the Braves have too much infield talent waiting to get their shots to waste the position on this guy. I know he’s played well in the past (did a fine job subbing for C. Jones in 2006) But, why block good, young talent with this guy? I can see where Yunel Escobar would block a position, but not Aybar.

By cricket

December 18, 2007 1:03 PM | Link to this

Off the topic, did you guys see the play where westbrook listened to runyan and took a knee at 1 yard line to secure his team’s victory? What a smart player they have in runyan and what an un-selfish great player in westbrook. The guy is tied for 2nd in TDs - this sacrifice may cost him the Pro Bowl. Compare this with vickless falcons’ possibly most talented guy - MeAngelo - that makes sure that his 1st priority is promoting himself and taking stupid personal penalties that harm his team’s frugal chances of winning a game.

By chuckw/deadjournalist

December 18, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this

with so many teams now carrying 12 pitchers, i wonder if there have been any discussions about expanding the active rosters from 25 to 26 or 27 players. i’m sure this is the last thing either the union or the owners have on their minds, but it be interesting to see if it has come up.

for sh1ts and giggles, how about something similar to the 3rd qb rule in football?

maybe one position player and one pitcher?

A) allow a previously designated position player (before the start of each game) to be used only if all other position players have been used. the player can then only be substituted for a position player (so to not allow to pinch-hit for a pitcher).

B) allow a previously designated pitcher (before the start of each game) to be used only if all other active pitchers have been used. the player can not be substituted for a position player.

in theory, this would mean that if all position players, including the A) from above were used, the B) pitcher would have to enter the game as a pitcher in the event of an injury that forced a position player out of the game. this would mean the pitcher preceding B) into the game could replace the injured position player. the same would apply in reverse if a pitcher were injured.

look, this is completely a spur-of-the-moment concept that, by my own admission, has not been well thought out.

… anything to not talk about hgh and steriods.

By ncscoots

December 18, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this

Give me a high OBP guy at every position and I don’t much care how many of them can hit a lotta homers.

As long you also don’t care how many times you end up on the wrong side of 5-to-3, you’ll be in good shape.

Big innings win ballgames, and power creates big innings. That’s baseball as played in the 21st century. Whether that’s good or bad is another discussion.

By David O'Brien

December 18, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

NEW BLOG IS UP

By ppaddy123

December 18, 2007 1:12 PM | Link to this

nOLIE I agree…Give me a guy that hits screaming line drives to all fields any day! OBP, IMO is a more accurate assessment of a hitters quality.

By DonCoburleone

December 18, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this

DOB I see your point about Javy, but what if he does decent in spring training and we end up retaining him and he stinks in the regular season? Just seems like an old, tired name that didn’t need to be even brought up again in the Braves organization. I mean, is there any doubt that he used roids/HGH while he was with the Braves? I mean, a .680 slugging percentage and 43 home runs in 2003 and then just 4 years later he can’t even secure a backup spot on the Colorado Rockies??? Keep his cheating a$$ away from the organization, whether it is a minor league contract or free tickets to a game in June, just move on…

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