Braves

By Choppin' at the bit

October 8, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this

Good stuff, keep the stove burning!

By cmon gimme a break

October 8, 2007 4:44 PM | Link to this

What?

By robbie robertson

October 8, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

and never ever under any circumstance shake the hand of Bobby Cox

By Gil in Mechanicsville

October 8, 2007 4:50 PM | Link to this

Great blog Dave as is your usual standard. Yes, so much time, so little real information. I think I will hold out on the speculation until I have had the chance to look at some of the minor league numbers.

Yes, an injury can explain a lot. Sure looks like Manny’s oblique is acting up. Did you see how he had to raise his arms above his head when he hit that dinger the other night in Boston?

Indians finish off the Yankees tonight, no more second tier pitchers for the tribe.

Did you notice how the Rockies avoided having to use Redman? One way to do it, Only play 3 games…..

By Jick

October 8, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

Or Moises Alou.

By Yars

October 8, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

DOB…..I’m now glad I’m not the only, germaphobe. I carry hand sanitizer wherever I go. I can’t help but wonder why so many believe that Pendleton is a shoe-in for the Braves managerial job once Bobby retires. I really hope Bobby sticks around for another season or 2.

By AJ Soprano

October 8, 2007 5:00 PM | Link to this

Lyrical ziti as usual. Lyrical lasagna later in the week.

By Today in the AJC's Most Popular Stories

October 8, 2007 5:06 PM | Link to this

Man faces 30-years prison term for stealing doughnut

Bob Wickman has had a rough couple of months.

By Mike

October 8, 2007 5:06 PM | Link to this

I’m all for trying to get our hands on Haren, but I can’t come up with the right players to give Oakland. Seems to me, the Braves used up all their chips on Tex. It’s not like Oakland would take Renty…too old and too expensive.

By Choppin' at the bit

October 8, 2007 5:13 PM | Link to this

Good stuff, keep the stove burning!

By vabravesfan

October 8, 2007 5:13 PM | Link to this

I saw a breakdown in salary for the upcoming year and it did not include McCan…isn’t he making a decent amount with his new contract? That 81 million total seems off to me. Can someone breakdown the actual #’s ?

By Anders

October 8, 2007 5:14 PM | Link to this

DOB I don’t have to see the Mets schedule and I Know they play the Yanks 6 times next year. That’s why I’m not a fan of interleague unless the whole division plays the same teams. If the Mets were playing Texas and the Braves were playing the Yanks they’d be squealing like stuck pigs on here. Looking forward to Andruw taking Glavine deep at the Ted in June.

By BravesinTN

October 8, 2007 5:14 PM | Link to this

DOB, are you much of a fan of Nashvillian Will Hoge ? I went to his CD release party last night and his new stuff is decent. Opening act out of Mo-town “The Deadstring Brothers” are solid as well. Nashville has put out some good rock acts with K of Leon, Pink Spiders and Will Hoge. What are the rumors/thoughts about Renteria vs Escobar? Will both be back?

By AJ Soprano

October 8, 2007 5:15 PM | Link to this

On top of spaghetti, All covered with cheese, I lost my poor meatball, When somebody sneezed.

It rolled off the table, And on to the floor, And then my poor meatball, Rolled out of the door.

It rolled in the garden, And under a bush, And then my poor meatball, Was nothing but mush.

The mush was as tasty, As tasty could be, And then the next summer, It grew into a tree.

The tree was all covered, All covered with moss, And on it grew meatballs, And tomato sauce.

So if you eat spaghetti, All covered with cheese, Hold on to your meatball, Whenever you sneeze.

By Ron Roberts

October 8, 2007 5:15 PM | Link to this

Solid update, DO’B.

I’ve just taken a job managing a station in Myrtle Beach, SC, so I’m looking forward to watching the baby Braves (as MB Pelicans) move through the ranks, with the occasional rehab big name, too, I’m sure, so I’m excited about that.

One thing that concerns me about Mike Hampton (like I’m even sweating the notion of getting anything out of him next season) pitching winter ball is durability. Would it be too much to presume that if he pitches winter ball, then spring training, that, by August/September, the guy might be out of gas in a potential stretch run for us?

I agree with your assessment about the Braves adding a Blanton-esque arm making us the prohibitive favorites to win the NL East, but also think there are options aplenty within our organization, already, too.

This Bennett kid was impressive, wasn’t he? Has he earned a shot at winning a rotation spot in spring training? And what do we make of Lance Cormier? And Jo Jo Reyes, who pitched well down the stretch? Given Smoltz and Hudson, with the enigmatic Chuck James? Seems like we might have enough options already without tossing more prospects out, eh?

By TennesseePaul

October 8, 2007 5:18 PM | Link to this

DOB: Thanks for the new blog. Always good to read a fresh new topic.
I hope, for the love of all that is holy and good, Andruw does not go to the Dodgers. If he wants to win, he’d be better off not going to the Dodgers. I’d imagine the option would be interesting to him. Furcal is out here and he is good friends with him. But I hate that team and it’ll be damn near impossible to cheer for him if he signes there. If he wants to win he should aim for the Angels. He’d get all the money, and the playing time and the big stage with games against the Yanks, and I could still cheer for him. But we’ll see. The Angels have a lot of buzz with A-Rod and not so much AJ.

I did see some buzz on Rowand. He’s expected to command a similar contract to Eric Byrnes, 3 years/30 million. That sounds reasonable to me for our CF pick up, but I’d rather have the rotation shored up first. And, where Glavine sounds good and would create the warm and fuzzy feeling, he is not the answer. We need a long term solution first.

And then there is signing Teixeira. I hope the Braves can lock him up for a while.

So now, all that’s left is for the Indians to finish off the Yanks, and the D-Backs and Rox to go along with the BoSox and Indians for a terrific 7 game LCS and then on to probably a very underwhelming 5 game WS.

By Lew

October 8, 2007 5:20 PM | Link to this

There’s a coincidence. I just finished listening to Steve Earle’s Guitar Town right before I checked out the new blog. Great minds and whatnot.

Anders-from the last blog-Tell me exactly how Soriano’s stuff and Smoltz’s stuff when he started closing are that much different. They both are extremely hard throwing right handers with nasty sliders. The only major differences are that Smoltz had been a Cy Young caliber starter prior to closing and Smoltz also had a split finger pitch in his repertoire (he has a knuckleball, too-so what?). However, Smoltz was just coming off of surgery and Soriano probably throws a MPH or two harder than Smoltz did. I think if you look at it realistically, they are very similar. Though no one claims Soriano will ever equal Smoltz’s accomplishments, their pitching approach and stuff are quite similar, whether or not you agree.

By mbmsr

October 8, 2007 5:23 PM | Link to this

The reason people do not wash their hands at Turner field is bacause when the lines get long idiots pee in the sink! Who’s going to wash their hands where another has peed? I’ll take my chances with my own hands, thank you. : )

By Caleb

October 8, 2007 5:24 PM | Link to this

If Bobby does in fact retire after next year (I really hope he doesn’t), I think Joe Girardi would be a great choice for manager, if he doesn’t take a manager job this Winter.

By Steamboat

October 8, 2007 5:25 PM | Link to this

Haren would be great, but Blanton would be (way) more than adequate as a 3rd starter, and probably a #2 in a couple of years: the guy pitched 230 innings last year, and walked 40! With only 16 HR allowed, and a 3.95 era in the AL.

He’s 26, cheap, and would be SO much better than Glavine in the long term.

I know Oakland needs a SS - but they don’t want to take on a lot of salary. So send them Edgar and pick up part of his salary (as much as needed… Blanton cost nothing, Glavine costs $8 million!). And I’m sure we’d have to throw in some pieces (Devine, for example).

(I’m really not eager to trade Edgar, but I’d do this deal for a young quality starter who would be with us for a few years).

By Lew

October 8, 2007 5:35 PM | Link to this

You don’t need hand sanitizer when you’re a artistic hermit that lives in a state with 600,00 people in it and half of them live in one place. Stay inside and avoid Burlington and Vermont is real safe. Lots of great trees, though. Cool colors this time of year.

I don’t see the Mets signing Andruw. Why spend that kind of money when they have so many huge holes to fill, need pitching even worse than the Braves and have absolutely nothing of any trade value? They are already going to have to spend huge just to remain competitive-especially if The Nationals spend big and pick up Andruw and a couple of other pieces. I guarantee they are going to exploit that new stadium’s revenue stream and they have the basis of a good pitching staff to begin with-especially with Patterson returning.

Anders-Yes, we did address our bullpen woes last offseason. We went from having about the worst bullpen in all of baseball in 06 to having the third best ERA of all NL bullpens in 07-despite Gonzalez missing most of the season and having to dump Wickman. I’d say that was an extremely effective addressing of that problem area and considering that the only piece we have to worry about re-signing is Mahay, I’d say we’re still in a hell of a lot better shape in that department than the Mets. The Mets should be so lucky as to do that well with their own pen this winter.

Keep hoping, though. Duaner Sanchez might be back sometime. Of course, it’s been more than a season since he pitched, but maybe he and Pedro will lead you to the promised land. Oh, wait. They didn’t do that even when they were healthy, did they?

By JohnGTFan

October 8, 2007 5:43 PM | Link to this

Here’s a thought, don’t pee on your hands. Makes sense doesn’t it?

By Ron Roberts

October 8, 2007 5:45 PM | Link to this

I, too, would prefer us spend CF money on Aaron Rowand as opposed to Mike Cameron. I know Aaron’s batting average and power output tell me he’d do no worse than Andruw did this year, power-wise, and better than Andruw AND Cameron, average-wise. Think back to the mass quantity of times Andruw was up with RISP and did nothing for us, when a bsae hit would’e sufficed, and imagine a .300 hitter up rather than a .220 guy in that spot.

Rowand money is reasonable with good return on the investment.

By Randy

October 8, 2007 5:49 PM | Link to this

I think Andruw’s impact on the outfielders who play around him gets lost. I would expect Jeff Francoeur credits him a great deal for his growth as an outfielder. Not to mention that every time you look at Jeff in right field he is laughing at something Andruw has said.

By roan st

October 8, 2007 5:55 PM | Link to this

Why would the A’s give up Haren? His contract is very cheap for his talent level and still has a few years left on it. We can quit dreaming about this guy cause it aint goin to happen. The A’s will probably eventually trade him but only when the time is right. Lets be realistic and try to come up with better options. BTW when shuerholz retires I would offer billy beane the farm to come here to Atlanta. This guy finds more stud pitching talent than any GM in baseball. Shuerholz has been a great deal maker but has failed at finding great pitching talent for our ORG.

By Jim

October 8, 2007 6:00 PM | Link to this

I posted this at the end of the last blog.

Shaun,

It is not certain that next year’s centerfielder will give us more production than Andruw. Andruw had a terrible year and his lack of production cost us, but he did draw 70 walks, score 83 runs, drive in 94, and hit 26 HRs. His OBP was .315. Let’s hope that we get more consistency from that position next year, but it’s not likely that we will get 94 + 83 - 26 = 151 runs produced.

There were too many games this year that we lost, not because of the starting pitching, but because we did not get clutch hits — Bases loaded 0 outs against the Mets — no runs scored, Got only 2 runs of Lohse in the 2nd to last game at Philly.

A better measure of how well the offense does is not to look at the total runs produced, but to look at the number of games in which the offense produces 0, 1, 2, 3, etc. up to 10 or more runs and compare that against other teams in the league. If team A scores 0 runs in 5 games, 2 runs in 5 games and 10 runs in 5 games it will have a total of 60 runs. If team B scores 2 runs in 5 games, 4 runs in 5 games and 5 runs in 5 games it will have a total of 55 runs, but it is more likely to win more games than team A. One can look at just the runs scored/game totals and use the totals for the league as a whole to determine the probability that a team wins a game when scoring x runs. Then use these figures to determine expected number of wins for the offense (only offensive run production vs league average would be used — offenses would be compared without regard to the relative strength of an individual team’s pitching.)

I look at Colorado, Philadelphia, Chicago and perhaps Milwaukee, Arizona, and the Mets and can’t say that our offense is better than any of the above. Therefore, if going with an “old rotation” is not going to get us into the playoffs with a chance to advance and is going to retard the development of our young pitchers like James and Reyes, then it is not a good idea. The Braves are in that awkward “between” area of being good enough to contend, but not necessarily good enough to “make it”.

By Herman (The Baseball Expert)

October 8, 2007 6:06 PM | Link to this

Mr. Schwinn Hello Hi WOW there you are!!!!! I was wondering where you were or if there was another power outage get it? That was a little inside baseball humor HA!!! Anyway I say a big yes to taking advantage of our talents and genius now and providing a mother of all sports and baseball blog of champions hey that’s a good name what don you think? We’ll make a fortune AND lot’s of money too cause people would pay to get the answers to tough questions that we already know answers to. I’m already on page 13 so what do you say about that but I haven’t gotten to the Mr. Catfish 156 mph amazing pitch but WOW WOW is that fast or what you bet it is and I bet most of these bloggers didn’t even know that huh?

Looky at what a hot stove it has turned into with all that baseball talk going on and everything I really love it and there are so many things I already knew that is being said but it’s fun don’t you think anyway? Plus and this is a really big plus I just learned a blogging trick that works every time we can just do what Anders does - - if someone asks us a question or corrects us we can just say “if you read my posts over the weekend” then we can skate along cause we know that nobody will bother to look it up and we can appear even smarter than we already are which I admit is hard to do don’t you think so my partner in blogging? Let me practice for a minute here Mr. Schwinn and you tell me how I do ok - - A blogger asks me if I knew that someone could throw a perfect game and still give up 12 hits and 4 runs and I say yes but then they call me on it and I look it up and see that they were right I just say OH YES BUT I said that last weekend!!!! So there it is what do you think????

Anyway I like it cause Mr. Anders uses it all the time and it works for him too he must be a professional blogger and all cause he knows tricks galore but he may be angering Mr. Shaun cause he called him asinine good thing it was not asiten or asieleven HA HA baseball humor and really good humor too don’t you think partner??? So he better watch out cause Mr. Shaun can get out his adding machine and bury Mr. Anders in a pile of tape don’t you think? Plus and a big plus is that after that nice Mr. Lew straightens him out he will be looking for a new blog and that’s when he will be ready to be hired by us but NOW we will only offer him $3 per hour which I know is more than he makes now so he will jump at the chance don’t you think?

By Matt

October 8, 2007 6:07 PM | Link to this

DOB, Andruw’s said all along that he doesn’t want to play anywhere cold — doesn’t that take NY, Philly, and Chicago out of the process, or are you thinking that’s a bunch of posturing?

By Lew

October 8, 2007 6:07 PM | Link to this

Roan st-I would think the pitching talent in Oakland comes more from their scouting program than from their GM.

By Jim

October 8, 2007 6:10 PM | Link to this

Lew,

The Mets do have players with trade value — Pelfry, Heilman, Huber, Milledge, Gomez just to name a few. I’m NOT a fan of the Mets, but you continually undervalue their personnel.

By j-School Dropout

October 8, 2007 6:11 PM | Link to this

If Andruw goes to Phils or Mets that almost guarantees us a division win next year. If he thinks he’s been booed at Turner, wait til he takes his rally-killing act to Shea or Philly. It won’t be pretty.

By David O'Brien

October 8, 2007 6:29 PM | Link to this

Ron Roberts, you named a lot of mediocre pitchers. Guys who could fight for a fifth spot, but guys the Braves don’t want anwhere near their Nos. 3-4 slots if they can help it.

That didn’t work so well this season….

Matt, haven’t heard Andruw say anything at all about the cold weather since the start of this season. In other words, since the start of a season in which he hit .222 and became not nearly as picky about his next employer.

Believe me, if a cold-weather team makes a better offer than others, that’s probably where he’s going.

BravesinTN, I like Hoge, or rather the couple of songs I’ve heard of his.

Just too early to know if Renteria and Escobar will both be back. Haven’t heard anything since season ended, obviously….

By David O'Brien

October 8, 2007 6:32 PM | Link to this

JohnGTfan, I guess we can count you in the 43 percent who go straight from the john to eating hot dogs, no stop at the sink required….

By Roundup

October 8, 2007 6:35 PM | Link to this

Chuckling outloud…love to see AJ in NY or Philly. Those fans will chew him up, spit him out, and stomp on the leavings. That brings to mind a song…”You ain’t seen nothing yet, oh baby you ain’t seen nothing yet; it’s something you’ll never gonna forget; you ain’t seen nothing yet”. Hmmmm…that might apply to Glav here, also.

By Not the JackAss

October 8, 2007 6:37 PM | Link to this

It appears that someone may be clearing out of NOLA before the JackAss arrives.

By Anders

October 8, 2007 6:42 PM | Link to this

Jim You’re not following Lew’s rules. Richmond Braves =Awesome. All other MLB prospects = not so good (unless the Braves acquire them, the they =awesome)

Lew I’m not talking about Soriano’s stuff. I’m talking about you comparing him to Smoltz as a pitcher. Come on. Lots of guys have nasty stuff, some even nastier than Smoltz but that doesn’t put them anywhere near him. Why am I the only one defending one of your HOF pitchers? Anybody else see Lew’s comparison of Soriano to Smoltz just a wee bit premature? DOB Any thoughts on this? God knows you had Glavine’s back, certainly Smoltz deserves some backup.

By CalCuse

October 8, 2007 6:55 PM | Link to this

After peeing and heading straight back to my seat, the other guy said, “Hey, didn’t your mother teach you to wash your hands after taking a pi$$?” I said, “No, she taught me not to pee on my hands.” nuff said.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 8, 2007 6:59 PM | Link to this

pee in the sink? pee in the sink? dob, please say it ain’t so. this journalist has washed this journalist’s hands in the sinks at the ted.

oh, the humanity! who among us would pee in a sink? “what, what, baby seal? oh, yeah, jimmy smith forgot about stinky.”

and now that shaun has shaun’s own blog, stinky has claimed this one. stinky blogging with stinky. stinky all the time. dob is getting some hits but from a not very deep intellect.

and here is some baseball content (new transition, scribe - how does scribe like it?), andruw jones is a sissy.

now, lots of news on the blog lately. and dob, nice use of “whither” in this blog.

and the jimmy smith impostor has again been at work and making this journalist look like one of the ugly bloggers. not so.

and here is a big shout out to carolina lady who has gotten a wonderful report from carolina lady’s doctor. all bloggers will be happy to know carolina lady is doing just fine.

now, if arthur blank does not come to the aid of coach petrino, then coach petrino will be regarded about like terry pendleton is now regarded. toothless in the face of a steak.

now, long post from this journalist who has been away in myrtle beach. and it appears rr is coming to myrtle beach. lots of calabash fish places there with lots of fried shrimp. don’t want to get you-know-who started blogging here tonight but calabash shrimp are often served as sandwich platters. no offense intended to friend, rr.

and whither journalist bob?

and now this,

Death comes quickly to eagle, surprising zoo staff By CURT SLYDER cslyder@journalandcourier.com

Columbian Park Zoo officials are hoping for answers regarding what caused the death Thursday of one of the zoo’s most popular animals.

The zoo’s only bald eagle, on display since the zoo reopened June 30, died unexpectedly Thursday evening.

Named Pride, the adult male bald eagle was experiencing difficulty breathing Thursday morning, said zoo director Claudine Laufman.

Officials brought in a veterinarian to treat the bird that zoo staff had seen struggling to breathe. But it was no use.

The little beak kept closing as mouth to beak resuscitation was attempted again and again. Finally, the old bird just rolled over one last time and said, “g’night dob.”

oh, the humanity! journalist is sure to be censored!

By Shaun

October 8, 2007 7:05 PM | Link to this

Anders, in the last blog you wrote, “Shaun Your 2:49 post is asinine. Sorry there is no way to sugar coat it. Just so others who go back and read it understand I didn’t say getting out’s in the 6th and 7th is harder -that’s Shaun’s attempt at sarcasm.If what you say is true, why does Every team use their best reliever as a closer?”

The reason teams mostly use their best reliever as closer is because of the bogus stat called the save. Because of the conservatism in the game, managers often refuse to use their best reliever when the game may be more on the line in the 6th or 7th or 8th inning and instead opt to use their best reliever to rack up saves, often when the team is in a good position to win with a lesser pitcher.

Look at Willie Randolph in Game 7 of the NLCS last year. The Mets lost a close game without their best reliever throwing a single pitch.

By ncscoots

October 8, 2007 7:10 PM | Link to this

Wouldn’t you think Beane would want to see if Harden can stay off the DL for more than a month before shopping Haren and Blanton? Maybe next year.

And while we’re hot-stoving pitching names, maybe it would behoove the Braves to look for a righty. Lefties appear to be proliferating around the tomahawk.

By Adirondackdave

October 8, 2007 7:11 PM | Link to this

DOB - What’s a fella to do… first it’s the toe-tappers and now it’s the handshakers…

By LT (double A blogger)

October 8, 2007 7:15 PM | Link to this

Back in 98 or so I was at a Widespread show in Memphis (Mud Island- awesome venue), and saw some fans using the sinks as sinks are not meant to be used. Great band live- terrible, awful fan base.

Ever since, I have carried some pocket packet wipes. One, does that lump me in that 43%? Two, does that make me a wuss?

By Braves Fan 79

October 8, 2007 7:22 PM | Link to this

Andrew will be one misrable player come this time next year when hes sitting at home after playing for a crappy team while the Braves are in the playoffs!! Boras is a piece of crap….and so is Glavines agent that helped drag him to NY.

By trois3

October 8, 2007 7:24 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB,

I don’t get why you keep mentioning the Braves need a 3rd-4th starter. What they really need is a staff ace, not someone who chokes against the Mets and Phillies in September like Smoltz and Hudson did this past year.

By Tyler

October 8, 2007 7:24 PM | Link to this

B.Jones and Prado for Ian Snell?

And let Diaz play everyday. He has proved he can play everyday, and he has done nothing to prove he can’t play everyday.

Use Chuck James in a deal for a CF and bullpen arm or a good left fielder that can play everyday if Diaz isn’t it already. Either Winn and Chulk for James or try for a Carl Crawford.

Sign Glavine as the #4 and let Jo-Jo and Bennett fight for the #5 (And Hampton if he’s back)

By Anders

October 8, 2007 7:24 PM | Link to this

Shaun Let’s agree to disagree on the importance of a closer. I’ll take the side of the last 25 years in baseball. You can have the other side.

BTW- It’s just your type of thinking that caused the Braves to win only 1 WS title in all those playoff years. I tend to think the Braves under estimated the closers value too. Either that or they could just never get their hands on a lights out one.

By KC

October 8, 2007 7:30 PM | Link to this

DOB: “And let’s be clear: I don’t think it’s a given that Glavine is coming back to the Braves”

Yes you do. Come on… be honest. ;)

By KC

October 8, 2007 7:34 PM | Link to this

Mark Bowman, Braves.com (today):

It’s obvious that Glavine wants to be reunited with the Braves and that the Braves certainly would benefit from his return to their organization. What remains to be seen is whether the Braves will be able to create the payroll flexibility that would allow them to take whatever discount Glavine is willing to offer.

Glavine’s willingness to decline the $13 million option the Mets didn’t come as a surprise to anybody who understands his desire to finish his career in Atlanta. As great as he’s been, no other team is going to provide him this kind of free-agent offer.

Then again, if he truly was simply looking for top dollar through free agency, he wouldn’t have erased leverage power during both of these past two offseasons by making it known that he’d only play for the Braves or Mets. Now that he’s captured his 300th career victory, his other option would be to return to Atlanta to begin enjoying retirement life with his wife and children.

My guess is that those final two weeks of this regular season combined with the disastrous start he made on the season’s final day erased any desire to return to the Mets next year. In addition, the fact that he retired just one of the final nine batters he faced during that season finale will only fuel his competitive desire and lead him to decide he wants to continue pitching.

Some have said Glavine would’ve pitched for the Braves for $6 million last year. Given that he signed with the Mets for $7.5 million plus a $3 million buyout, this seems to be a good estimate and provides reason to believe he might be willing to pitch in Atlanta next year at a cost of around $7-8 million.

By Curt

October 8, 2007 7:35 PM | Link to this

DOB

I have heard Manchester Orchestra play several times and was not that impressed. Their friends Colour Revolt , on the ther hand, are great!

Do you listen to Jimmy Eat World? They just had a new CD come out and are playing in ATL at centerstage on the 26th. Im excited to finally get to see them live after listening to them for 8 years!

By ncscoots

October 8, 2007 7:38 PM | Link to this

Because of the conservatism in the game, managers often refuse to use their best reliever when the game may be more on the line in the 6th or 7th or 8th inning

Unfortunately, given the horrifying lack of prescient managers in dugouts, few will know what three innings in the future will bring. Who is to say the game won’t on the line again at some later point, with no fear of facing said “best reliever”? Closers pitch late because they pitch to conclusion. Using them while the opposition still has opportunities to rally would be a waste of a valuable resource.

Conservative it may be. Also, smart.

By jch

October 8, 2007 7:51 PM | Link to this

I agree with all you say about Glavine. And it would be a fantastic ending to Cox’s career to have Smoltz and Glavine in the rotation his last season - hey, maybe they all 3 would bow out together?

Which leads to my “but”.

But, Do we really want to be in a position where we are relying so heavily on another 40+ year old arm?

As is, we have Smoltz, who pitched an incredible year for a 40 year old but DID show some chinks in his armor. Not to mention, we’re hoping Hampton is back and in decent form and hoping Hudson can make it 2 years in a row (no indications he won’t but we all know his history).

Needless to say, Glavine isn’t the Glavine of old. He won 61 games in his last 5 years with the Mets vs. 89 in his last 5 with the Braves and, with the Mets, his ERA is just a tad under 4.00.

You’re suggesting we’ll have to pay $8-10M to get him for one year. Can’t we do better than 12-14 wins and a 4.00 ERA for that amount of money?

You yourself mentioned Haren from Oakland has much better stats over the same period and is MUCH less expensive and could be around for several years - not just Cox’s swan song.

Glavine would be a nice story but I’m not sure its a good enough read to jeopardize another season. Unless I’m mistaken, its managements’ job to sell tickets and you do that best by competing for and winning divisions - not selling sentimental favorites.

On the other hand, if the Baseball Gods choose to bless Atlanta in ‘08 and Smoltz & Glavine maintain there effectiveness, Hudson has another fantastic year and Hampton comes back as the old Hampton - we would have a seriously scary rotation (no matter who’s in the 5 spot) to go with our outstanding line-up.

Oh to dream a bit….

By Don

October 8, 2007 8:00 PM | Link to this

Well, if Andruw does go to the Phillies, Mets, or Nats, at least that’s one sure out for the Braves pitching staff.

By JJMB

October 8, 2007 8:07 PM | Link to this

That freaking Lofton! He’ll do his damnest to choke a post season game. Whew.

Very glad to hear about Carolina Lady’s good news.

GO INDIANS!

By Efrim

October 8, 2007 8:10 PM | Link to this

Anders

Never got a chance to answer your post from the last blog, early this morning. I had tons of crap to do at work. I understand you really like Milledge because he makes no money and reminds you of Frenchy. But understand that it is Omar’s goal to change the overall dynamic in that clubhouse. The cocky arrogance that they possess is killing that team. NL teams love to wipe that smirk of the Mets face. Teams get up to play them because of the cocky attitude. I think they will definetly trade Milledge. As for Heilman, I hope you were joking about the Braves loving to have him. Don’t act like I don’t live in NYC and listen to Mets fans complain about the guy all the time. He is a guy that can’t be counted on to get big outs in New York. He has proven that over two seasons plus. Also, I don’t want to hear it about your prospects. You know they have regressed this season. Humber was bad in triple A, Pelfrey had an awful 07, Milledge, well, see above. Gomez broke his Hamate bone, and Fernando Martinez posted a 720 OPS this season in Double A. Other than that, they don’t have much depth. High ceiling prospects whose ceiling was a lot higher in 2006.

By anotherearlyexit

October 8, 2007 8:13 PM | Link to this

Someone asked in the last blog What is Bruce the boss of? After watching his 60 minutes interview I have concluded he is boss of the fruits and nuts! LOL! The man is clueless!

Andruw ends up in San Fran IMO. They got money and need an OF to replace someone who got booted. It could happen quick which would allow the Braves to offer arby and get a couple of picks. That would be a good thing.

By Alan

October 8, 2007 8:23 PM | Link to this

OK, here we go again trading for players (Carl Crawford?) and signing free agents (Aaron Rowand) there is absolutely no chance of getting. The Braves are going to owe several arbitration-eligible players (Soriano, Yates and Diaz to name just three) significant raises next year - and that doesn’t include Teixeira, who’s in the same boat, I believe. Smoltz’s contract calls for a hefty raise, too. I don’t think it’s a slam-dunk that Glavine will come back for the simple reason that I’m not sure they’ll have the dough to pay him. So, do some of you honestly believe the Braves will be able to afford Rowand - even with Andruw’s departure? I don’t think so. I’d love to see Glavine return - it’s addition and subtraction (from the Mets), but a lot of other subtraction (of salaries) will have to occur. And I surely hope Renteria stays. His contract is very reasonable - and I’d hate to see him traded for someone else’s #3 or #4 starter. Plus, having him and Escobar and Chipper and Johnson and Prado gives the Braves a lot of infield depth - and allows them to NOT bring back Orr and Woodward. This team is very close to real contention - Glavine would take them much closer. Let Hampton, James, Reyes and Bennett compete for #4 and #5 - and the “losers” can move to the bullpen or out of town. At this point, I’m thinking center field is not a priority - and I really don’t care where Andruw lands, either. He’ll get his money because all it will take are two teams to fight over him - and that will happen.

By JBird

October 8, 2007 8:29 PM | Link to this

DOB, Just a comment on the restroom stats. In the south we’re taught as children not to pee on our hands!!

By you can look it up if you don't believe me

October 8, 2007 8:45 PM | Link to this

Urine therapy refers to one of several uses of urine to prevent or cure sickness, to enhance beauty, or to cleanse one’s bowels. Most devotees drink the midstream of their morning urine. Some prefer it straight and steaming hot; others mix it with juice or serve it over fruit. Some prefer a couple of urine drops mixed with a tablespoon of water applied sublingually several times a day. Some wash themselves in their own golden fluid to improve their skin quality. Many modern Japanese women are said to engage in urine bathing. The truly daring use their own urine as an enema. Urine is not quite the breakfast of champions, but it is the elixir of choice of a number of holy men in India where drinking urine has been practiced for thousands of years. The drink is also the preferred pick-me-up for a growing number of naturopaths and other advocates of “nature cures.” The main attractions of this ultimate home brew are its cost, availability and portability. It is much cheaper than that other “water of life,” whiskey (uisge beatha), which also has been hailed for its medicinal qualities. Unlike whiskey, however, urine is always available, everyone carries a supply at all times, and, for most people, there are no intoxicating side effects. Furthermore, the urge to overindulge is almost absent when drinking urine. The same can’t be said for good single malt such as Highland Park or a good whiskey such as Black Bush.

More than three million Chinese drink their own urine in the belief it is good for their health, according to the official Xinhua news agency.

By Art in Tenn

October 8, 2007 8:53 PM | Link to this

“Dont pee on your hands. makes sense doesnt it?”

thats the most disgusting thing ive read in this blog since the mets had a 7 game lead in the division a few weeks ago.

any man who doesnt take 10 seconds to wash their hands after urinating should be castrated. problem solved! makes sense doesnt it?

By keylargo25

October 8, 2007 8:56 PM | Link to this

That means one in every 430 Chinese are nuts.

By Overlord

October 8, 2007 8:57 PM | Link to this

By Overlord October 8, 2007 1:04 PM Billy Walsh, you are right, but i think yankees are done, all the hype of the comments from GS were the reason they woke up yesterday. They will lose today, paul byrd or no paul byrd. How will wang do with 4 days of rest?, he threw 94 pitches lasttime out, i dont thing it would be different at yankee stadium even as his numbers home away say so. There is no secret we will see a high scoring game, but the indians have more pitching to make some damage control.

Comments on TBS:

“Bobby Cox said Paul Byrd has the ability to get any hitter out more than any pitcher that has pitched for him”, (the reporter asked ……. ANY?). Bobby answered “ANY”.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 8, 2007 8:58 PM | Link to this

storing a canned ham at temperature above 122 degrees may cause the ham can to swell and the ham to sour. and sour canned ham can make one grumpy. and how is a swollen ham can opened? and what happens when the swollen can is opened? will the little key still work on a swollen ham can? and where does the ham can bulge? top? bottom? sides? and has a ham can ever exploded? and what happens when the can explodes? and would the ham become a projectile? would the ham penetrate a wall? or stick to a wall? or merely hit the wall and slide to the floor? many questions. many, many questions.

remember, canned ham is not for sissies.

now, baseball … cubbie is broadcasting tonight’s game. oh, the humanity! too much cubbie. has a rabbit for a pet.

and will lew complete the wurlitzers in time for christmas? lew is working on lots of wurlitzers. and does skip caray know how nice the wurlitzer really is?

and why do people pick cashews from the nut bowl? and this journalist believes this blog to be a nut bowl at times. and whither grinch?

and does a pelican wear a glove in the field?

By Steamboat

October 8, 2007 9:02 PM | Link to this

Shaun, Wagner threw 24 pitches in game 6, 2006, the night before. Was he really the most logical choice in the 7th inning of game 7?

Your “conservative” hook seems inconsistent to me. It may be conservative to rely on BA as the measure of a batter (I don’t really know what the bloggers of 1890 talked about, and I think most people now accept OBP/OPS as better measures - computers have made those kind of stats much more accessible), but the closer and setup man are relatively new developments in baseball. They may be bad ideas… I don’t know… but they’re not conservative; they’re progressive, if anything. Maybe it’s true that guys are more comfortable knowing their role, or that some guys are better cut out for certain roles … but again, maybe not.

A conservative (as you define it) view of pitching would be to have guys pitch 40 complete games per year… and I don’t see anyone pushing that.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 8, 2007 9:04 PM | Link to this

art, please forgive this journalist for what jimmy smith is about to say:

“any man who doesnt take 10 seconds to wash their hands after urinating should be castrated. problem solved! makes sense doesnt it?”

whose hands, art? oh, the humanity! whose hands? should be a personal thing and should only require washing art’s hands.

again, please forgive this journalist. it is a slow night on the blog.

By JJMB

October 8, 2007 9:05 PM | Link to this

you can look it up if you don’t believe me, you skipped over the largest group of urine-drinkers, the Hindus. Nice people, BTW.

By Lew

October 8, 2007 9:06 PM | Link to this

Jim-As far as me undervaluing the Mets farm system-Dude, just tell me who they have produced the past several years besides Wright and Reyes, that has actually produced at the ML level. Can’t do it can you? That’s because there is no one else. Humber didn’t even produce at AAA. As far as them trading any of the players you mentioned-they need all the help they can get. LoDuca, Alou and Sean Green must be replaced. If they trade Milledge, whose attitude is less than desireable, they have to find two outfielders. Their bullpen was terrible last year, so they can’t afford to dump Heilman. They need at least two decent starting pitchers, so how do they trade Humber and Pelfrey (who was really bad at the ML level-no, not just bad, he was terrible)-especially if they think they might get good, some day? I also refer you to Efrim’s 8:10 post, which gives you a pretty good evaluation of those payers.

Anders-Do you even read what others (or yourself, for that matter) post? Re read my 5:20 post and see what I say about Soriano equalling Smoltz’s accomplishments. I never compared their careers. You will see that I have been comparing Soriano’s stuff and the way they pitch to Smoltz and his stuff and approach. I don’t give a flying whatever if you can see the similarities or not. They exist, which is exactly why no one on the blog has come to your defense or shared your opinion. They are both hard throwing right handed pitchers with nasty sliders and overpowering stuff and an in your face demeanor in relief. Period. That’s what I said and you have yet to give me an example of how that is a misinformed evaluation.

As far as Richmond for the Braves vs. New Orleans for the Mets is concerned- Do you seriously think there is any vague comparison between our two farm systems? I ask again-who besides Wright and Reyes have the Mets produced in recent years? The Braves , on the other hand, can field a starting team of players on their current roster and have been able to do so for well over a decade.

By Lew

October 8, 2007 9:07 PM | Link to this

Excuse me-The Braves can field a starting team of players from their own farm system.

By snuffy smith

October 8, 2007 9:09 PM | Link to this

cuzin jimmy you crack me up you are a true cracker

By Lance

October 8, 2007 9:10 PM | Link to this

DOB — I’m incredibly thrilled that you know of and appreciate Manchester Orchestra. Seen them twice and I was very impressed. You won’t be disappointed!

By Muhammed

October 8, 2007 9:13 PM | Link to this

NOTHING OF SIGNIFICANCE WILL EVER BE ACOMPLISHED WITH LIBERTY. THEY ARE INTO THE MONEY AND THE TAX WRITE-OFF 1ST, WINNING 2ND. THEIR FRONT-MAN MCGUIRK IS THE WEAK LINK. REVAMP THE TOP AND MAKE IT HAPPEN… OR THIS STATUS-QUO WILL BE INTACT!

By Efrim

October 8, 2007 9:16 PM | Link to this

Overlord

Why would you gloat about something like that this early in the game???

The Yankees have 4 hits off Paul Byrd in 2 innings. Do not get so excited, didn’t you watch last night’s game???

I want the Yankees to lose as well, but it is way too early to be gloating. This is the Indians….the Eric Wedge managed Indians.

Not Mike Scoscia and the Angels, Jim Leyland and the Tigers, Terry Francona and the Red Sox, or Jack McKeon and the Marlins. Wedge and the Indians have played tight A LOT the past three years. Lets take the wait and see approach.

By Snuffy Smith Equal Time

October 8, 2007 9:17 PM | Link to this

Sleeping Beauty, Tom Thumb, and Quasimodo were all talking one day. Sleeping Beauty said, “I believe myself to be the most beautiful girl in the world.”

Tom Thumb said, “I must be the smallest person in the world.”

Quasimodo (the hunchback of Notre Dame) said, “I absolutely have to be the most disgusting, filthy, ugliest, and most obnoxious person in the world.”

So they all decided to go to the Guinness Book of World Records to have their claims verified.

Sleeping Beauty went in first and came out looking deliriously happy. “It’s official, I AM the most beautiful girl in the world.”

Tom Thumb went next and emerged triumphant, “I am now officially the smallest person in the world.”

Sometime later, Quasimodo comes out looking utterly confused and says……

“Who the heck is Stinky?”

By Muhammed

October 8, 2007 9:17 PM | Link to this

NOTHING OF SIGNIFICANCE WILL EVER BE ACOMPLISHED WITH LIBERTY. THEY ARE INTO THE MONEY AND THE TAX WRITE-OFF 1ST, WINNING 2ND. THEIR FRONT-MAN MCGUIRK IS THE WEAK LINK. REVAMP THE TOP AND MAKE IT HAPPEN… OR THIS STATUS-QUO WILL BE INTACT!

By TheSouthernJackAss

October 8, 2007 9:19 PM | Link to this

Now ain’t this a real pile o’ primate sh!t! TheJackAss plans for months on traveling to “Nola” to take in Mardi Gras, and to visit an ol’ friend. Made advance reservations at a nice hotel, chartered a private jet, purchased thousands of dollars worth of cheap-a$s beads to toss to the girls…then what news do I hear? My radio friend moves hundreds of miles away, and says nothing till after the fact!…That says it all huh?…No surprise…Now ain’t that special!

Cowardly, punk-a$s, retarded A$sClown!…

Unbelievable!…

By Lew

October 8, 2007 9:19 PM | Link to this

Esteemed Journalist-Yes, I will complete the Wurlitzers in time for Christmas and still have more than enough time to educate Anders about baseball-if he desires to actually learn. Maybe if you promised him a canned ham if he became an apt pupil….

Art in Tenn-I doubt castration would help much with the not washing hands problem. Even lacking that portion of anatomy, urination would still be necessary-castration would not help with this. Maybe you would do better to cut off the offending hands and have a catheter inserted. A bit Talibanish, perhaps, but it would eliminate (pardon the pun) your having to shake hands with the offenders. Or maybe you could just wear latex gloves, a mask and avoid public restrooms. From what I understand on the evening news, the Police do all sorts of sting operations there, anyway. Maybe they could arrest everyone who neglects to wash their hands.

By 22oz

October 8, 2007 9:20 PM | Link to this

Everyone knows you cancel out washing your hands as soon as you touch that doorknob. Even though Turner Field has no bathroom door….hey, there’s a ballgame to get back to, no time!

Chip Carey’s excitement for the Yankees is getting a little ridiculous. 22oz is rooting for a Colorado vs Cleveland World Series.

By Shaun

October 8, 2007 9:23 PM | Link to this

Anders, who said closers aren’t important. And maybe conservative is the wrong word with the inefficient way relievers have been used since the save became a prominent stat.

Just because managers work around the save and usually save their best relievers for the ninth inning when their team already has the lead, doesn’t mean it’s right. So yes, we’ll agree to disagree. You can go with the view that your best reliever should be used inefficiently and I’ll take the opposite view. That’s fine with me.

By Overlord

October 8, 2007 9:23 PM | Link to this

So, is this torres last game in pinstripes???

By snuffy smith

October 8, 2007 9:26 PM | Link to this

cuzin jimmy is a real peenut he grabbed the wrong jar from my still one time and said woo this here is some good stuff i never tol him what he drunk

By Lew

October 8, 2007 9:27 PM | Link to this

Stinky is John Gualt.

By Overlord

October 8, 2007 9:27 PM | Link to this

There is a huggggggggeeeeeeeeee difference between braves and indians as far as what i have seen until now, THE JUST KNOW HOW TO BUNT, i have not seen them miss a bunt. An AL team that bunts 10 times better than an NL team, just PATHETIC.

By Overlord

October 8, 2007 9:31 PM | Link to this

Bye bye dear yankees…. Let both CS begin.

By chrisklob

October 8, 2007 9:33 PM | Link to this

Greetings denizens. Great news from JJS regarding Carolina Lady. JJS, I haven’t seen her around the blog lately. Would you please send her my regards?

Lew, did you get my email?

Ron Roberts, Myrtle Beach is a fun town. Pelicans play in a great facility. I make it a point to get up there for a few games each year. I think Kentavo lives up there too, if memory serves me correctly.

Overlord, it is surely looking that way!

By Cody

October 8, 2007 9:33 PM | Link to this

DOB, What about Rocco Baldelli? Remember last offseason when he was the main toppic of discussion? Is there any chance that we make a run at him or Crawford? And i do remember them wanting Chuck James, I would probably make that trade. What do you think?

By Dr. P

October 8, 2007 9:37 PM | Link to this

Using urine to cure athlete’s foot fungus was nationally proclaimed by Madonna on the David Letterman show in the 1990s.

Human urine is sterile. Fungus can be treated by sterilizing it.

Although it is not widely used in America, human urine has been used in medicine for thousands of years. World War II prisoners of war used urine as a disinfectant.

By Lew

October 8, 2007 9:39 PM | Link to this

ChrisKlob-Yes, thank you.

By Patrick

October 8, 2007 9:39 PM | Link to this

All this talk about urinating is p** me off!

By Novice Ned

October 8, 2007 9:40 PM | Link to this

How about Paul Byrd? Younger than Glavine and would likely sign a 2 year deal so we don’t have to do this again during next off-season.

By Overlord

October 8, 2007 9:41 PM | Link to this

Cody its tough to make that trade as long as braves keep saying james has great stuff but he needs to develop his game a little more. Im not worried about CF, braves will come up with something. Pitching is more of a worry.

By chrisklob

October 8, 2007 9:41 PM | Link to this

Cody, are you aware of Baldelli’s fondness for the DL? He played in a whopping 35 games this year, 92 last year, and missed the entirety of 2005. He hasn’t played a full season since 2003. NO THANKS.

By Roundup

October 8, 2007 9:44 PM | Link to this

Maybe Chip’s enthusiasm comes from trying to impress the Yankee brass so that they will hire him. Go for it Chip and get out of town as I’m over you and your grumbly dad.

By chrisklob

October 8, 2007 9:44 PM | Link to this

Wasn’t there a story about Moises Alou urinating on his hands to keep blisters from forming? Or was that Josh Beckett?

By journalist jimmy smith

October 8, 2007 9:46 PM | Link to this

chrisklob, this journalist will tell carolina lady.

By dadgum

October 8, 2007 9:46 PM | Link to this

DOB….I agree with you that the Dodgers or Angels look like best bets for Andruw. He has already stated that it must be a warm-climate team. The White Sox simply won’t happen. Not a chance. Bad fit-manager,organization,weather,sorry team.

As for the NL East, AJ simply won’t suit up for the Mets (unless it is stupid money). Phillies are interesting but why would they go after Andruw when they have a better option in Rowand? Actually the Nats are a possibility. A good one. But will Andruw want to play for a losing team for the next few years.(I know they are getting better). Forget the Fish.

I don’t see Andruw in Houston at all. Owner Moore is too tight and won’t slug it out with other bidders. Proof? Beltran, Pettite, and the Clemens dude.

My take is that Andruw will end up in either Anaheim or Texas. The AL is a good fit and they throw crazy money around like it is fountain change. Boras likes that. I know the Mets do to but it is damn cold up there. Bet the Angels. Warm, good team, organization, manager.

Rock on….remembering Grand Funk.

By StinkyJones

October 8, 2007 9:52 PM | Link to this

Sometimes I pee my pants but never my hands. Maybe the AJC can have a pee shirt contest. Wait. They’ve already had one and we got the pee shirt.

By TheSchwinn

October 8, 2007 9:58 PM | Link to this

Herman(The Baseball Expert) I have a confession to make - I’m not really pretty much a freakin’ sports genius - But I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night! HaHaHaHaHA!!

By terry

October 8, 2007 9:58 PM | Link to this

need to fill center field from within..B Jones K johnson.. MOVING KELLY BACK TO THE OUTFIELD WOULD FREE UP KEEPING RENTY AND PLAYING ESCOBAR AT 2ND.USE MONEY FOR PITCHING

By brent a.

October 8, 2007 10:01 PM | Link to this

I heard that Turner Field bathroom story at least 1 year ago, if not 2.

My gut says Andruw to the Giants, although I think Washington should do all it can to get him.

By Overlord

October 8, 2007 10:06 PM | Link to this

Now the muts can breath, braves, phillies and yankees are out of the picture.

By Overlord

October 8, 2007 10:10 PM | Link to this

terry totally agree on KJ.

By Efrim

October 8, 2007 10:15 PM | Link to this

Overlord

Cano leads off the 6th with a home run. They are 4 down with 11 more outs to go. Wait it out bro. I am with you, I want them to lose, but you are counting that team out too early. Remember, this is Cleveland.

By snuffy smith

October 8, 2007 10:20 PM | Link to this

i swear that jimmy smith is touched in the haid sittin in his shack in his pee-stained boxers typin on the internet pretendin he is a journalist from ugandy

By Daybed Wagmoe

October 8, 2007 10:23 PM | Link to this

great to see that the braves are opening 2008 at home! it’ll be good to see john smoltz or tim hudson starting the home opener instead of some dude named redman or thomson.

By mike

October 8, 2007 10:26 PM | Link to this

what ever happened to Matt Wright? he was having a great yr in 06 at AA then got moved up to richmond..but don’t remember seeing him this yr in richmond??

By Snuffy Smith Equal Time

October 8, 2007 10:33 PM | Link to this

Imagine eating church lady casseroles all the time! That’s the plight of the shut-in. That, and blogging with one’s shut-in self through the night. Meltdown is imminent. The little intellect is so very, very fragile. And the nose string, don’t forget the nose string.

By elvis and the main theme of today's blog

October 8, 2007 10:34 PM | Link to this

In the book Elvis and the Memphis Mafia it is claimed that Elvis adopted a very unusual “urine” diet to get in shape for the Aloha concert.

When Elvis was in Baptist hospital, they ran into a problem one time: Elvis’ urine test was stolen. They had to have his specimens escorted to the lab.

By Baseball Fanatic (Go Braves!)

October 8, 2007 10:36 PM | Link to this

Oh My Lord! Chip Caray is the most annoying person EVER. Even more annoying than Skip.

By chrisklob

October 8, 2007 10:37 PM | Link to this

mike, he’s in the Royals organization now. Spent the year at Omaha. I’m trying to figure out if he was a free agent signee or trade acquisition.

By Stinky

October 8, 2007 10:40 PM | Link to this

‘StinkyJones’ is another stolen soubriquet.

Somebody has a serious case of Stinky Envy.

By snuffy smith

October 8, 2007 10:42 PM | Link to this

Meltdown is imminent!

That means that cuzin jimmy is fixin to make a grilled cheese sammich again that boy loves his cheese watch out jimmy don’t drip none on your toes

By ralph

October 8, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this

Dear baseball fanatic, as was explained the other evening, Chip Caray is the second most annoying person in america.

The number one most annoying person is Ben Stiller.

By Fire Rich McKay.Com

October 8, 2007 10:53 PM | Link to this

WHY BRING GLAVINE BACK HE SPIT IN OUR FACES A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO AND SAID…YOU KNOW BUSINESS DECISION….METS DONT WANT HIM SO HE WANTS TO COME BACK TO THE BRAVES WHY HE IS WAY PAST HIS PRIME…..NOT A CLUTCH PITCHER ANYMORE WE NEED A FREAKING SUPER STAR STARTER AND A GOOD CENTERFIELDER OR POWER HITTER FOR THE OUTFIELD…..GLAD ANDRUW JONES IS GONE 7 YEARS 20 MILLION A YEAR….WHO THE HE$$ IS DUMB ENOUGHT TO THINK THIS GUY WOULD BE WORTH 20 MILLION AT 37 NO WAY THIS GUY IS THE WORST CLUTCH HITTER I HAVE EVER SEEN….TORI HUNTER IN CENTER AND A BIG TIME ARM BRAVES CAN EASILY BE BACK ON TOP AND DONT TRADE RENTERIA….MOVE ESCOBAR TO SECOND AND PLATOON KELLY JOHNSON…..OH YEAH AND GET FRANCOUER TO LIFT WEIGHTS IN THE OFFSEASON SO HE CAN BE A REAL POWER HITTER AND BRAVES WILL BE FINE…UNTIL THE PLAYOFFS WHEN BOBBY HAS A HUNCH AND IT ALL TURNS TO SH%%

By Fire Rich McKay.Com

October 8, 2007 10:54 PM | Link to this

WHY BRING GLAVINE BACK HE SPIT IN OUR FACES A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO AND SAID…YOU KNOW BUSINESS DECISION….METS DONT WANT HIM SO HE WANTS TO COME BACK TO THE BRAVES WHY HE IS WAY PAST HIS PRIME…..NOT A CLUTCH PITCHER ANYMORE WE NEED A FREAKING SUPER STAR STARTER AND A GOOD CENTERFIELDER OR POWER HITTER FOR THE OUTFIELD…..GLAD ANDRUW JONES IS GONE 7 YEARS 20 MILLION A YEAR….WHO THE HE$$ IS DUMB ENOUGHT TO THINK THIS GUY WOULD BE WORTH 20 MILLION AT 37 NO WAY THIS GUY IS THE WORST CLUTCH HITTER I HAVE EVER SEEN….TORI HUNTER IN CENTER AND A BIG TIME ARM BRAVES CAN EASILY BE BACK ON TOP AND DONT TRADE RENTERIA….MOVE ESCOBAR TO SECOND AND PLATOON KELLY JOHNSON…..OH YEAH AND GET FRANCOUER TO LIFT WEIGHTS IN THE OFFSEASON SO HE CAN BE A REAL POWER HITTER AND BRAVES WILL BE FINE…UNTIL THE PLAYOFFS WHEN BOBBY HAS A HUNCH AND IT ALL TURNS TO SH%%

By TennesseePaul

October 8, 2007 10:59 PM | Link to this

chrisklob: I think he was a FA deal. He was a 6 year minor leaguer at the end of 2006, so I’d imagine he had to sign a deal to end up in KC this season.

By JJMB

October 8, 2007 11:02 PM | Link to this

“Oh My Lord! Chip Caray is the most annoying person EVER. Even more annoying than Skip.”

Nepotism at it’s worst. I’d rather french kiss Hillary, than spend a nanosecond in the presence of either.

Poor Tony.

By Ron Roberts

October 8, 2007 11:03 PM | Link to this

SJA… I’m much closer, now, you moronic d!psh!+. Things like interviewing for the job, accepting it, packing, finding a home, moving, starting the job, (which by the way brings me a mere 3.5 hours from all of my family now), giving it 110%, dealing with a family illness along the way took MUCH higher precedence than stopping everything to tell some whackjob blognut where I’d moved to. The offer still stands, though, and now I’m just a short drive from your alleged horse ($h!+) ranch in V@g!n@. So no excuses, big-talk. And hey, it’s early enough to get a refund on any expenses you’d put out (I’m sure) towards your New Orleans travel. Talk about the clown calling a kettle black.

But I’ll say this…. if what you’ve said is true…

Made advance reservations at a nice hotel, chartered a private jet, purchased thousands of dollars worth of cheap-a$s beads to toss to the girls…

…then once I again you’ve been screwed. HAHAHA.

I’m sorry…I laughed out loud at the “chartered a private jet” line. A bit over-the-top. But not surprising coming from the king of talking a line of bull$h!+. You are the king of something at least.

By Stinky

October 8, 2007 11:07 PM | Link to this

ralph, Ben Stiller is annoying, but he doesn’t sound like a bad FM announcer.

Someone has a wicked sense of humor, pairing FM Boy with Mr. Haney (Gwynn).

By JustTheFacts

October 8, 2007 11:11 PM | Link to this

you can go with the view that your best reliever should be used inefficiently and I’ll take the opposite view

What an @ss. Who the hell is this jagoff? Gets a prop once in 2 years and all the sudden he’s the alpha and omega of everything baseball. Get over yourself.

By BravesFanInRockies

October 8, 2007 11:18 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Congrats for finding the T-Birds LP. I found “Girls Go Wild” at a used vinyl store in Raleigh in 1980. Picked it up along with a used copy of the first Blasters LP on Slash (the self-titled one with Phil Alvin’s sweaty forehead on the cover).

Changed my life.

By Overlord

October 8, 2007 11:27 PM | Link to this

Efrim, remember this is cleveland? hey i wouldnt be surprised if they win it all. They have shown they are a great team, very good team.

By Overlord

October 8, 2007 11:27 PM | Link to this

Efrim, remember this is cleveland? hey i wouldnt be surprised if they win it all. They have shown they are a great team, very good team.

By Overlord

October 8, 2007 11:29 PM | Link to this

Efrim, remember this is cleveland? hey i wouldnt be surprised if they win it all. They have shown they are a great team, very good team.

By Coochboogerjournalist

October 8, 2007 11:39 PM | Link to this

ron roberts is a cowardly chickenshyt puzzy—-SJA would pop your head like popping a pus pimple. Mr. big talk, no walk! that’s ronnie boy!!

By Efrim

October 8, 2007 11:39 PM | Link to this

Overlord

Good team with a terrible closer. Borowski is going to blow this game…..

and just as I say that. Abreu deep to left. WEDGE IS AN IDIOT!!!!

KEEP BOROWSKI AWAY FROM THE YANKEES!!!!!!!

BETANCOURT THREW 12 PITCHES IN THE 8TH INNING!!!!!

By Overlord

October 8, 2007 11:41 PM | Link to this

Any idea whos going to be next yankees manager?

Ill bet joe isnt going anywhere.

By MEB

October 8, 2007 11:44 PM | Link to this

Indians are dancing around the infield!!! Oh… thats not our Braves, what’s up with that?

GO BRAVES!!!

By Overlord

October 8, 2007 11:46 PM | Link to this

GS is such an A*******HO… that he wont be able to stand to his words.

Indians-Bosox guess ill have to watch that series.

Hope indians win.

Indians-vs-Rockies

By Overlord

October 8, 2007 11:50 PM | Link to this

Whats up with the balance of power?

We almost had 4 sweeps, if it was not because of GEORGEs big mouth, yankees would have been swept also.

By A-ville Ranger

October 8, 2007 11:55 PM | Link to this

Ghengis Ghan (or was it his brother Don ?) reputedly once said ‘it’s not enough that I win but my enemies must also lose.Well we didn’t win but the Skankees lost tonight and it feels pretty damn good.

By Braves Fan 79

October 8, 2007 11:59 PM | Link to this

I get so tired of seeing pple on these blogs talking about how the Braves are a average team! We woulda won the division if not for one thing! Despite crappy pitching and bad managnment the Braves would of been in the playoffs if one thing would of happened!
you replace woodcrap or pete orr with a .350 hitting escobar coming out of spring training! I was calling for escobar the first week of the season because i saw promise in the guy and knew he wasnt just some not ready but alot of potential 19 year old! Everyone on the Braves blog told me….the guys unproven….let him improve in the minors…blablabla…. how come none of the editors havent touched on this subject!?? Everyone wants to blame starting pitching…but in how many games did woodcrap come up as the last hitter with RISP?? (he ended up being a .170 pitchitter)
How about all the games when chipper got hurt and we had to start orr and woodcrap time after time!?? Did we not nosedive back to .500 during that time!?? Im telling everyone….MISTAKE OF THE YEAR WAS KEEPING WOODCRAP ON THE ROSTER!!

Its scherultz fault for signing the career .190 or so hitter….its Cox’s fault for keeping him on the roster! …as if we didnt have enough weak hitting utility men already!!

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2007 12:07 AM | Link to this

Ho hum, another year, another Yankees $200 mill first-round exit.

Seriously, that’s three years in a row for the Yankees. That’s pushing the Braves’ first-round streak, with about 250 percent more money spent in payroll and luxury taxes….

If they fire Joe T, then Joe G(irardi) has got to be a leading candidate for next Yankees manager, right? I think he’d be a disaster, dealing with all those veteran players and Steinbrenner. But who knows? Maybe Giradi can adapt to difference circumstances….

Saw “Into The Wild” tonight. Very good movie. If you liked the book, you’ll love the movie. If you didn’t like the book, don’t waste the 2-1/2 hours on the movie. It’s very much true to the book.

That’s three very good movies Sean Penn’s directed — “The Crossing Guard,” “The Pledge” and this one….

By Braves Fan 79

October 9, 2007 12:13 AM | Link to this

You know who id like to see in centerfield next year…..the free agent CF from the Phillies! Man that guy can hit…and hes a good clubhouse guy from what i hear.
I just read about a rumor on espn.com about Glavine going to Washington. Man that would make no sence! Why spend your last years on a CRAP team going NOWHERE!?

By Braves Fan 79

October 9, 2007 12:25 AM | Link to this

How about a guy i always liked as a solid 4th or 5th starter for the Braves….Paul Byrd. Man that guy looked great tonight vs the yankees.
Him and John Thompson are the 2 guys i think could of really helped the Braves this past season. But i think Thompson ended up hurt halfway thru the season so he wouldnt of been much help.

How about the yankees putting up the andrew like .220 batting average? wow…is Clevlands pitching really that good!??

By Baseball Fanatic (Go Braves!)

October 9, 2007 12:33 AM | Link to this

Just Wondering When do the tickets for the All-Star game go on sale?

By BosnianBaller

October 9, 2007 12:57 AM | Link to this

Atlanta: Dan Haren

Oakland: Kelly Johnson Brent Lilibridge Chuck James

Sounds fair to me.A’s could play johnson in the outfield

By BosnianBaller

October 9, 2007 1:01 AM | Link to this

Hey DOB you should see the Hunting Party with Richard Gere and Terrence Howard

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 9, 2007 1:03 AM | Link to this

Well, the Yankees did exactly what I said they would do, which was fold like a cheap tent. They didn’t have the pitching. Like the Phillies they were one of those rare lucky teams to slug their way to the playoffs but got exposed when it counted most. Fact is all those people who jumped on the Yankees bandwagon didn’t realize the only reason they even made it into the playoffs was because the Tigers were so banged up. A healthy Tigers team is infinitely better than the Yankees.

I expect Torre to be fired by noon tomorrow. It is kind of sad because its not really his fault. It wasn’t his fault his starting rotation made the Braves look like the 70s Orioles. It wasn’t his fault that all those overpaid veterans didn’t decide playing until July.

I hope Arod wises up and gets the hell out of New York as fast as he can. I don’t care if the Yanks paid him $50 mil a year. Those j******* in New York they call fans don’t appeciate him. These jackasses wouldn’t have even sniffed the playoffs if it wasn’t for Arod. Jeter can do all his jealousy talk about how “it is a team effort” all he wants. It wasn’t he or “Mr. Untouchable” Roger Clemens that carried this team. It was Arod. He is too good for those jobbers. Just like Glavine and Beltran are too good for Mets fans.

By uga-brave

October 9, 2007 1:07 AM | Link to this

gotta feeling its gonna be glavine and a lot of other small moves for the braves this offseason.

just dont see liberty media pumping a lot of money into the team. that being said if smoltz , hudson, and glavine head the rotation that would be fine with me, providing all stay healthy.

i hope they dont trade renteria, still has plenty left, let him and esco play everyday and see what happens. worst case scenario they could move renteria at the deadline.

By jbutler

October 9, 2007 1:07 AM | Link to this

JJMB Thanks for the visual.

By GeorgetownKid

October 9, 2007 1:13 AM | Link to this

Mr. O’Brien,

I would love to know your opinion of my thoughts on the recent discussions:

A lot of people are including James in their hypothetical trades. I may be wrong, but I don’t see much demand for James, in that I believe teams don’t see that much upside in him. He’s a good pitcher, but will never be really good. His flaws make him an ideal bottom-of-the-rotation pitcher. And you just can’t expect too much in a trade if hte best thing you’re offering is a #5 pitcher.

Regarding the possibility of the trades with Oakland, Renteria would not be a valuable bargaining chip. Beane wants young, affordable players, not players in their 30s who after one year will be free-agents. If we want one of the horses from the As, we had better be willing to part with at least one of our young studs: Escobar, Reyes, Hanson, or Rohrbough.

If we include one of those guys and throw in Kelly Johnson or Lillibridge, that would be an offer that Oakland would have to seriously consider. Without one of those studs, I don’t see us getting either of Oakland’s prized starters.

Lastly, what is the contract status of Bennett? Will we have the option of keeping him in Richmond next year?

By Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera

October 9, 2007 1:18 AM | Link to this

DOB, saw “The Pledge” last night for the first time. Still haunted by it today. Great movie! Jack Nicholson’s performance is astounding in its understatement. It’s a joy to watch such a skillful actor pull off such a difficult role.

By jbutler

October 9, 2007 1:25 AM | Link to this

Did anyone see JS in the TBS booth? I only saw a snippet. Man. I love Cal Ripken- but he’s got the TV personality of an amoeba. They had a picture of JS w/McCann when he was 10. Hilarious. That will take whatever hair is left on his head off!! Funny stuff.

By MakearunatKenny

October 9, 2007 1:26 AM | Link to this

Still don’t think its right for the Braves to not even sit down once with Andruw. Twelve years with them should be enough for them to have a conversation, even if it lasted five minutes and went nowhere.

Let’s make a strong run at Kenny Lofton. He’s a great team player and will play even if he’s hurt.

Let’s certainly count on Hampton. When, if they sign Glavine, I won’t be able to stand the fantastic spin the Braves and you guys will put on it.

By Coach ( Lets Go Braves In 2008)

October 9, 2007 2:12 AM | Link to this

Dave O’Brien , so you think the Braves would be thinking , sign Glavine and still trade for another young arm ? I can’t say I disagree with that. But , short term it makes more sense to try and trade Renteria for help in CF. Long term , Smoltz will be 41 , Glavine will be 42 next year. Going after another young arm with the prerequisite long term contract already in place isn’t a bad idea and I always think pitching first. For argument’s sake look at this depth : Smoltz , Hudson , Glavine , Noah Lowry ? , Mike Hampton ? James , Reyes , Cormier , Bennett and Carlyle. You can never , ever have enough pitching , but that is some unbelievable depth. Somebody is going to be traded if Glavine signs and Renteria brings another starting pitcher in trade. Like you said Dave , it’s going to be a very interesting off-season.

By gotigers72

October 9, 2007 3:47 AM | Link to this

Word is that if Torre doesn’t come back to the Yankees, The Rocket would put his services on the free market again. Hey, he’ll only be 46, and he comes at a price of $30 million for pitching the whole month of August. That’s all though, just August. What a steal!!!

By Big Ed

October 9, 2007 7:08 AM | Link to this

Yeah let’s spend our money on an aging pitcher. That has been the New York Yankees formula for success for the last six years and how has it worked for them. As of last night they are home watching again. Last year the Detroit Tigers had one pitcher (Kenney Rogers) that was over 40 years old. This year the Indians only have Paul Byrd. Boston only has Curt Schilling. The rest of these teams starters are a good mixture of middle young to rookie talent. By bringing Glavine on board the Braves will fall into the same false sense of security that the Yankees have. Paying for a name but not getting your money’s worth.

By Jared

October 9, 2007 7:42 AM | Link to this

“That has been the New York Yankees formula for success for the last six years and how has it worked for them.”

You can’t argue with their regular season success. Plus I’m sure every Braves’ fan would have liked to see the Braves make the playoffs either of these past two years.

I read that teams have exclusive rights to talk to their respective free agents until 15 days after the World Series. That means the Braves can’t talk money or anything with Glavine until 15 days after the World Series ends. Ain’t that just grand? This Glavine drama will go on even longer than I originally thought.

The offseason just started and I’m already sick of the “will Glavine go the Braves or Mets, retire, maybe sign with the Nationals, is the money there for the Braves and blah blah blah blah” stories and speculation.

By Jim

October 9, 2007 8:34 AM | Link to this

I for one wouldn’t mind seeing Andruw striking out, hitting weak pop-ups, and grounding into rally killing double plays for a divsion rival (all the while lugging his 25% body fat physique around the field). The Mets have a history of overpaying for players on the downhill slide (Mo Vaughn, Bobby Bonilla, etc.) —- sounds like Anduw would be a great fit a $20 mil a year!

And if I lived in NYC, I’d be washing my hands (and everything else ) all the time too. Yuck!

By Overlord

October 9, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this

Laptop battery life to last 30 years?

Check that TECH info, pretty amazing.

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 8:58 AM | Link to this

Jim, the Braves scored four or fewer runs 82 times in 2007. Only four NL teams did it fewer; and that’s not taking into account ballparks.

They scored more than five runs or more 80 times. Only five teams did it more.

Regarding Andruw, the reason he scored and drove in so many runs is because he was in a lineup that finished fourth in OBP and sixth in SLG. His RBI and run totals were a result of the guys around him more than him. Imagine if they had a centerfielder who posted an OBP/SLG of say .340/.500, Andruw’s normal production. He may have driven in 140 runs instead of 94 and scored 110 instead of 83.

People who say that Andruw had a productive season because of his RBI and Run total completely ignore the fact that the hitters around him did more to create those runs than Andruw himself. This is why RBI and runs for individual players are bad measures of run creation, and this fact should be obvious.

By Jim

October 9, 2007 9:28 AM | Link to this

Not to rag on Andruw too much, as he has been a great defensive centerfielder (and very streaky offensive player)over the years —-But I do think that the beating that he has given his body, along with his less than stellar physical conditioning has shortened his prime years (hell, I’m a 47 year old IT professional and I bet I hit the weights harder and spend more time in the gym than Andruw). I think his career has peaked and he has begun a downhill slide. This along with his hard-headiness in not listening to his hitting coach really irked me. His statement “I’m a pull hitter period” was not cool. The few short stretches where he didn’t try and pull everything he produced. And, of course Bobby didn’t help the situation by insisting on batting him high in the order most of the year (man, did that kill some rallys or what?). I think the Braves made the correct decision to let him walk. At his asking price, he is nowhere near worth it.

By keylargo25

October 9, 2007 9:47 AM | Link to this

Good post Jim (9:28). I have thought that Andruw’s calendar age might be 30 but his actual age is 35. I think his demand for $20M a year is unrealistic and his demand for a seven year contract is beyond comprehension.

By Derrick

October 9, 2007 9:48 AM | Link to this

         **Attention**

** Edgar Renteria and Jo Jo Reyes

for

Rich Hill**

that would gie the braves a terrific rotaion of:

Hudson Smoltz Hill James Hampton/glavine

not to mention the best bullpen in the NL

add to that a great lineup even better without AJ

WORLD SERIES HERE WE COME!

By Kentavo

October 9, 2007 10:09 AM | Link to this

To Ron Roberts: What station are you managing?

I’m in M.B., too, editor of The Weekly Surge, check us out at www.weeklysurge.com or at 500 locations throughout the Grand Strand every Thursday.

By The Ultimate Choptimist

October 9, 2007 10:09 AM | Link to this

The thought of signing Glav doesn’t exactly get my blood pumping, but I look at it this way: We already have the stud starters in Smoltz and Huddy who can take the rock in big games and dominate. I agree that Glav is not in their class, and would not want him starting a crucial, life-or-death game…but we need someone like him who can get us to that crucial, do-or-die game. We need a steady innings eater who can get through those mundane, mid-summer games against the Cincy’s and the Cards and the Pirates without blowing games that we should easily win.

I know it’s not exciting, and if we god-forbid get the chancee to get a Blanton or Haren, then you do it without thinking about it. Alls I’m saying is that signing Glav would be a solid move if those guys are not attainable.

By ncscoots

October 9, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this

Derrick, if there is a young Braves’ lefty to be traded, Reyes is not the one I would choose.

By ncscoots

October 9, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

Yes, this should inspire fear in the opposition: a 42-year-old thumber, a two-pitch HR machine, and a guy who hasn’t pitched in two years…all lefties. That is 3/5 of the rotation being called for by many folks on the blog. 95 starts, Holy Cornelia.

Sorry, that rotation does not make me want to start sizing the rings. IMO, you can have one of those guys in the rotation, but more than that is asking for trouble.

By The Ultimate Choptimist

October 9, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this

To my last point, I would argue that the thing that separated the Phillies from the braves this season was Jamie Moyer. In other words, both teams had a 1-2 that could go up against anyone, but the Phillies had that solid, whiley vet for a 3rd starter who pulled out the “gotta-have” and “gimme” games against the Pirates of the world…meanwhile, our 3-5 trash toiled around and couldn’t get through the 4th against the Marlins and gNats, et al. We could bridge that gap by bringing Glav back.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 9, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this

So, how long before Torre is fired? I say no later then 3:00pm today.

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

I’m pretty sure Glavine can at least provide what Moyer provided to the Phillies this season.

By GSU-Lee

October 9, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

DOB, Any chance the Braves would make a run at Rowand? I would take him of all cf’s but I don’t know if they want a long-term option in cf w/ that Shaffer kid. And I know that want pitching and that is the priority, but if they got a younger cheap guy, maybe they could swing it. Your thoughts?

By hotchhouse

October 9, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this

Don’t bring back Glavine, face it the old days are over and time to move forward. Say the same for Hampton, how many years since he has pitched a game?

Lets pick the best of the young talent and get in the hunt for a proven performer with a future, another Hudy.

Meanwhile, lets look at gettng beyond Bobby. Hes been great and brought us alot of Division pennants, but if Steinburner lives up to his brag and fires Torre, bring him home to Atlanta!! He’s already proved hes a better field manager than Cox (1996 Series) and that is the real change the Braves need to be looking at. Torre without a Steinbrenner would be a real positive change!!

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 9, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this

Glavine would be a great pickup. Now, he isn’t a savior so another pitcher would be needed. But, Glavine would soldify the middle of this rotation.

By 22oz

October 9, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this

Glavine could be to the Braves what Paul Byrd was for Cleveland last night.

By fastasballs

October 9, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this

Glavine surely would have pushed Atlanta over the top this season, but next season is another animal. Can two 40 plus pitchers & Hampton actually get through a season without a lot of missed starts?

I really think JS goes after another young gun & that Reyes takes James’ spot as the 5th guy, provided Glavine is signed & Hampton pitches effectively through winter ball & spring training.

Reyes showed much more promise than James IMO. If James doesn’t come up with a 3rd pitch he’ll never improve & his stamina is always an issue regardless. A lot will depend on sring training of course, but if Reyes continues what he showed the last 2-3 starts he’s a much better option.

Nobody really knows what Liberty is willing to spend for payroll. We probably won’t until all the moves are made. I don’t see Andruw not being offered as a sign they don’t have money, but a sign they want more return on their money than Andruw can provide. If they seriously wanted him back they would have made some sort of offer, don’t you think? I think JS knows Andruw is a player with declining skills so any sort of multi year deal would handcuff the Braves in the future.

The Braves could trade for pitching & won’t be as handcuffed as people think on the money because anyone signed for multible years can have most of their money deferred until after the 2008 season. With a ton of money freed up after next season there will lots more to play with & the Braves have always been creative in using what they have now & in the future.

By Coach Lets Go Braves In 2008)

October 9, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this

Here is a name few have heard of yet. Alexei Ramirez , supposedly the next Cuban Phenom. The 26 year old has hired an agent and is trying to bust into the big leagues during spring training of 2008. The 6-3 RH Cuban plays SS , 2B and the outfield.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

October 9, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this

I love the way some of you feel so inclined to trade away every young prospect for someone else’s cast-offs. Be honest folks, somewhere along the line you have to realize that the kids you are ready to throw under the bus are going to be some other team’s number one or number two guy in a couple of years.

Yes, the Yankee ownership should look square in the mirror if they want to see the real problem with their team. Equating cost with value is a trap many fall into and is what drives the market. Can you say “flip this”? I really like the young teams in this year’s playoffs.

And how about the Rockies and the Dbacks? Both are good looking young teams with some of the best players no one has ever heard of. They both took it to the Braves this year. The Indians is another team that has some great looking young talent that has not gotten a lot of press.

I’m rooting for the Indians to show the RedSox that you cannot buy the World Series. As for the National League Series, I look for it to go seven games.

One thing for sure, I am glad none of you are making the personal desicions for the Braves. We would have a 300 million payroll and Chuck Tanner as our manager.

By Jared

October 9, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this

“Glavine would be a great pickup. Now, he isn’t a savior so another pitcher would be needed. But, Glavine would soldify the middle of this rotation.”

And THAT is all the Braves need. They’re not going to have five staff aces. Glavine provides quality starts, keep the Braves in the ballgame and is good for around 200 innings. Signing him is a smart move.

That leaves with Smoltz and Hudson, Glavine, James and Hampton. Unless you can’t even count on Hampton to stay healthy or at least be a #5, I’m not sure where you’d put another starter. Though it certainly wouldn’t hurt, and we can all dream, to get Dan Haren (yeah right), Joe Blanton or Rich Hill.

I remember some rumors about A.J. Burnett for Renteria too. But who knows? JS is so unpredictable.

By ncscoots

October 9, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

Even if the Braves can’t come up with a young stud pitcher this offseason (and nay is certainly more likely than yea), next year’s FA crop of pitchers is a monster, even assuming some of them sign extensions prior. Peavey, Penny, Lackey, Sheets, Sabathia, Johan, etc., etc.

So there’s still a good opportunity to get younger and stronger in the rotation, sooner rather than later, regardless of this year’s trade activity or Braves’ minor league development.

By Bryan

October 9, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

I am currently listening to Bill Monroe live at the mountain stage … awesome! Got that one dave? I finaly picked up the Steve Earle w/ Del McrRoy Band cd Mountain … that cd, as well, is spectacular.

I don’t know why i waited so long for that one… and i am also enjoying the new Frank Black.

By BravesFanInRockies

October 9, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

Getting back to last night’s discussion about closers —

Shaun has an excellent point. Borowksi led the AL in saves this year, but the shutdown guys in that pen are Betancourt, Perez and Lewis. None of them get the statistical credit for shortening the game. And yet Borowski gets the accolades (and lots of extra the cash, BTW) because he comes in with his team up by three and gets three outs by giving up only one or two runs. Todd Jones? Bob Wickman? Trevor Hoffman. Same story.

That’s nuts. I don’t doubt these guys’ toughness. But they’re not the pitchers I would want to rely on to “save” games, nor the ones that really deserve credit when it’s the 7th and 8th inning guys who often do the hard work.

And yet the ability of pitchers to qualify for that statistical anomaly, the save, drives up closers’ salaries and distorts the way managers run games. Still, closers and their agents love the save because it’s an “objective” measurement that drives up contracts.

Granted, a few closers really can (or could) dominate. Rivera; Smoltz; Wagner and Gagne in their prime; Mathan; Papelbon.

If you eliminated the save from the statistical menu, managers would almost certainly use their staffs differently. Some guys might pitch 2 or more innings a couple of days a week. Starters might go longer. Managers might not burn out setup men so readily. Who knows?

But Shaun’s right. The save has changed the way the game is played and not always for the better.

By Daybed Wagmoe

October 9, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

DOB — “the pledge” was a good movie??? i thought it was awful.

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Gil in Mechanicsville, I understand your sentiments about the Red Sox and I don’t think they’d be where they are without money but I’m not sure it’s accurate to say they are trying to buy a World Series title. They do have a lot of young players playing key roles when they could have gone after overpriced vets.

The money they spend is usually either for a player who is worth it or a calculated risk that could come up huge. I think that’s where money helps more than anywhere, with calculated risks. A team with money that just throws it around on any free agent that looks appealing will not win (see Baltimore). The smart teams with money go after somewhat risky free agents that could be worth the risk but other teams don’t have the resources to take those risks.

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this

Daybed, what can I say? Different tastes, my friend. I really liked “The Pledge.” Can’t remember what the reviews were like, but I do remember thinking how unsettling and good it was, how long I thought about it after I left the theater. Could be we look for different things in movies, my friend. No harm in that.

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this

Steinbrenner to dig up Billy Martin and have him manage the Yankees, a la Weekend at Bernie’s.

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this

GSU, as I’ve said before, the long-term commitment is one reason I don’t think Braves would go after Rowand, because Schafer should be ready in two years, tops. Maybe less.

And also, the money. They need to spend that $10 mill or so it would cost for Rowand, on pitching….

Daybed, just scrolled up and saw someone else loved “The Pledge,” too. I knew there was a reason I liked Bring me the Head…. the man has taste.

By BravesFanInRockies

October 9, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

BTW, meant to say “Nathan.”

By StingerSplash

October 9, 2007 12:20 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Can we get a review of the Kings of Leon/Black Rebel Motorcycle Club show for those of us who didn’t get to go? On Will Hoge, “Pocketful of Change” is a catchy tune. He’s played a lot in Charleston, but I haven’t gotten to go see him.

And this from colleague/counterpart Nick Cafardo on the Boston Globe blog: “There wasn’t a baseball person I spoke to today who thought Byrd had much of a chance against the Yankees.” Maybe BC knew something everybody else didn’t.

Skip Jr. was way too effusive in his praise of Byrd last night - he was gutty and gritty, not scintillating. Beckett and Carmona, that was scintallating, because nobody got on base. Byrd had baserunners all over the place but always stopped the bleeding.

And who’s a bigger postseason bust — A-Rod or Sheffield?

By BravesFanInRockies

October 9, 2007 12:26 PM | Link to this

Not that this discussion about closers really matters, BTW. I don’t see the save, flawed as it may be, disappearing any time soon.

The first manager/GM who figures out how to regularly run a game and manage a pitching staff by working around it, however, should have a big edge on the opposition.

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

The money they spend is usually either for a player who is worth it or a calculated risk that could come up huge.

Generally true, but Nancy Drew does not fit into that equation no matter how you package it. He wasn’t worth the money spent, and it wasn’t a calculated risk. If any calculating had been done, it would have been determined that nothing would come up huge besides the dollar figure.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 9, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this

I’m sure this has been covered but if its true the Braves will only have to pay Hamtpon $8 mil in ‘08, which I read on mlbtraderumors.com, this will change the Braves whole approach in the offseason. That is $7 mil they didn’t count on. Lets say Liberty only increases payroll by $8 mil to $95, which I think they may increase it to $100 mil. Wickman was part of that orginal $87 mil payroll from ‘07. Hudson’s raise takes that $6 mil so no extra money spent. You have to figure in Wilson’s and that thief Woodward’s salary which will equal almost $3 mil. Tex’s acquistion is counted into that $87 mil as far as I can see. If you take Andruw’s $13.5 mil off the books and add in the $6 mil Smoltz will receive in a raise that frees up $7.5 mil. If I have this figured up correctly or at least close to it, the Braves have about $18 mil freed up. Now, if you account for Tex’s raise and all subsequent raises with other players I figure the Braves will have about $12 mil to spend. If they can get Glavine for $8 mil, that will leave enough money to sign somebody like Cameron, who I am not all that excited about signing. They would have about $7 mil or so to spend on a Cameron or somebody of his ilk.

I think that if Renteria is traded, which I would say is a 98% probability, the Braves will go for another pitcher who is cheaper such as Blanton, Lowry, or somebody of that nature. The Braves won’t have a lot of money invested in the bench because they can fill all those positions in-house with guys making the minimum or close to it.

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

Rowand is going to wind up being another Johnny Damon. Some team is going to give him a fairly huge deal and by the second year he will out-make his production.

By flbravesgirl

October 9, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

I’m sure some of y’all have already checked out the spring training schedule but this might be helpful to those considering attending the brevity master class or just coming down to catch a few games.

http://www.springtrainingonline.com/features/master_schedule.htm

By Patty in Dallas

October 9, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

We care about Andrew leaving but, people are just “worn down” from having to complain about everything. TBS not having Braves games; Skip & Pete being kickoff TBS. When they traded David Justice I was depressed for weeks. Now I am just tired; tired of the whole business of baseball. I hope the game survives, but it has not been the same since free agency.

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 12:42 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul, Drew wasn’t really all that successful, true. But he did post a .373 OBP in 140 games so he wasn’t a huge disappointment either. I’d say he qualifies as a calculated risk that just didn’t work out all that well this season. Then again he didn’t cost the Red Sox any games and in an average season he’s pretty good; in a good season he’s one of the better rightfielders around. I’d say worth the risk for a team like the Red Sox.

By Braves Fan 79

October 9, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

I think the Braves shouldnt trade or get a high priced free agent CF(id perfer Rowand if we had the extra$$) Id rely on a cheap fast CF that has great defense and can steal some bases. And spend the real $ on starting pitching!! Man i would love to see Oaklands Harren in a Braves Uniform.

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

When it comes to closers and the save I’d agree that the stat is a little weak. I’d toss it into the W and L for a pitcher. They aren’t entirely representative of the work the pitcher has done but they aren’t entirely false of his contributions either.
Relievers are a different breed and I think it will take a little more time for the Reliever stats to get truly hashed out. Averages based on 9 innings for a reliever seem rather pointless as rarely if ever a reliever is in a game for 9 innings. K/9 or BB/9 or ERA or SV or W’s all seem to need some context to get an idea of a good reliever.
Of course, having ridiculously good numbers in all those categories is always good and speaks nothing but praise for the pitcher. But successful relievers can have “ugly” numbers in these columns as well. The Blown Save and Hold stat are pretty solid as well. If anything they say you didn’t throw the game away.
I’m particularly fond of first batter faced stats for relievers along with opponents AVG and OBP, as well as scoreless outings. Lefty/Right match ups and GO/AO ratio’s are pretty good as well but speak more for a situational reliever.

I’m not sure the system calls for best reliever at the end of the game all the time. Or best reliever in the mid innings. If it’s a tight situation, you’ll more than likely see a situational pitcher enter the game. He may not be the best overall pitcher, but he is called upon because it is figured that he is the best pitcher for this situation. i.e. the groundball specialist, the lefty/right match up and so forth. And then there is always the fact that, in the 6th and 7th innings, there are still at bats left to come back, so it isn’t necessarily pertinent to use the closer or over all best reliever at that time.

As for the Braves though, Moylan was the best reliever in that pen and he came in when ever and where ever and got the job done pretty much every single time. He’s so stinking good I’d like to see what he’d do as a starter, if he’s any where close to as good in the starter’s role we’d have one kick @ss rotation. Of course that would take a big weapon out of the pen, and after 2006 I don’t think I want to witness another pen full of Reitsma’s.

By Jonathan Simeone

October 9, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

I think the Braves should attempt to bring in Coco Crisp to play center field. Crisp is younger, cheaper and better than Mike Camron. Besides, I really do not want to see another player, like Mike Camron, who will strike out 150 times next year.

Lastly, I think that Crisp will play much better in a more relaxed situation like the Braves.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 9, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

Well, I think that while the Red Sox spend a lot of money they spend it wisely. They don’t go after hired mercenaries. They do rely a lot on young players. I dare say that if you take Pedroria and Youklis off that team they may not even make the playoffs. The only true “stars” in their everyday lineup are Manny and Big Pappi. The Red Sox have a “blue collar” approach despite “white collar” resources. On the other hand, the Yankees go after hired guns. That is what Cashman is trying to reverse. I think that not only will Torre go but Cashman could be a casualty as well. Stankbrenner doesn’t like Cashman’s approach and could blame all of this on him.

Also, I’m sure the A-rod bashing will intensify. If one wants to say he choked again, I’ll accept that. However, he wasn’t alone. Mr. Popular Derek Jeter choked big time. I say that Jeter’s choking hurt that team more than A-rod. Jeter hit into double plays three times in important potential run scoring situations. Last night being the most devestating. Not only was it Jeter though. Where was Posada? Matsui? Cano? Cabrerra? What happened to their “ace” Wang. I have never seen a pitcher whose numbers are more skewed than his. That 19-7 reg. season record is at best 14-12 on a team with an average offense. He more than any pitcher in baseball benefits from having a powerful offesne that often scores early in games.

Mussina is washed up. The Golden Chld Joba Chamberlin choked when it mattered most. Hughes did well but Clemens is obviously washed up and Petitte should be happy the series is over because he would have gotten shelled in a game five.

Arod choked but he was far from alone. If that boy has a lick of sense, he will get as far away from New York as possible. If they offered him $50 mil a year to play he should turn it down. Those fans don’t appreciate him. Much like some folks here don’t truly appreciate Chipper Jones but will once he is gone and they realize just how good he is. The same will hold true with Arod.

Do the Stanks even make the playoffs without Ardo? Do they even have a winning record without Arod? We all know the answere to those questions.

By Braves Fan 79

October 9, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

I cant wait for spring training to start…and to never see woodcraps name on a Braves jersey again! Actually i think theres no way he ever plays with ANY MLB team again. Braves had the weakest bench in MLB in the 1st half of the season HANDS DOWN! Thats what killed us!
Hopefully JS learned his lesson and this year depends on young talent from the minors to fill the bench instead of bringing in other teams unwanted crap!

By Mr J

October 9, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this

Fan 79,

I’m inclined to agree with you about CF. Very anxious to have a look at Gregor Blanco come spring. And as enticing as the Harren scenario is, I hope JS doesn’t give away too much. I’d be willing to take a chance with Glavine and calling it a day if that meant being able to resign Tex now and have agood shot at Peavy next year.

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this

I still don’t see Nancy as a wise calculated risk. 5 year commitment at 75 million for a guy who averages 122 games a season… Any stop gap could have produced a 700+ OPS for less money until a better option came along.

By Toby Cash

October 9, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this

I think that any team willing to give $100 million to a baseball player has to have serious brain damage. No player is worth that kind of money.

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul, good points. I think just looking at innings, strikeouts and walks may be just as telling as anything you could look at for relievers. Also maybe ground balls and fly balls and home runs should be thrown into the mix, as you touched on. Maybe K/game or BB/game, etc. would be a better way to give relievers some somewhat reliable and telling rate stats.

I know how you feel about some Baseball Prospectuss stats but they’ve come up with some decent ones with regard to relievers—win expectancy and run expectancy, etc.

Basically the premise of all these stats is calculating how a reliever has changed the opposing team’s chances of winning based on inning, base runners, score, strength of each team, etc.

By DonCoburleone

October 9, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

DOB washing your hands after going #1 is overrated and here’s why:

1)I NEVER pee on my hands.

2)My shlong (arguably) the cleanest part of my body, so holding it would not make my hands “dirty”.

Thank You…

By Tomahawkin

October 9, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this

Just a thought for all the people in the blog, Does Anyone see A. Jones moving to a corner outfield position, to redude the wear and tear on his body, much like the same as What Ken Griffey Jr Did? I think A. Jones offensive production would go up since a corner outfield position puts a lesser toll on the body…

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 1:27 PM | Link to this

Hey now, sure the Yanks were bounced in the first round. But now is not the time to name names, point fingers or name names. The Yankees should be very happy with this post season experience. They were the only team NOT to get swept in the first round.

You know what I enjoy most about this Yankee crash, Pettitte didn’t get a W. That leaves Smoltz in the lead for post season victories. Now we just gotta get to the dance next year and send Smoltz to the mound for all his W’s. He should get 5 more next year when the Braves win it all. He’ll tally 50 more K’s, and 3 perfect games to wrap up a post season record of 5-0 with a 0.00 ERA and 5 CGs and 5 SHO.
What? You gonna argue about that?

By Shaun's Left Brain

October 9, 2007 1:29 PM | Link to this

Just wanted to get a message out to everyone that this guy’s right side goons are holding us hostage. The D-Backs are in the NLCS because they have hear……..

“Get back in there you liberal lunatic. Who let this guy get loose?”

As lefty was saying, you can break the odds in a short series with a little pitching and a good manager and heart has absolutely nothing to do with it.

By wg

October 9, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

As someone who has been in Red Sox Nation for his whole life (the wrong team left Boston) and have been a Braves fan that long, have any of you ever watched AJ when he plays in cold weather? I can’t see him playing in NY, Chicago, or San Fran for that matter. He is the only out fielder I have ever seen play in a hooded sweat shirt. Cold weather would not be a favorite place for AJ to go unless the stadium is domed. Unless the money blows away everyone else, look for AJ to go to a warmer climate as opposed to springs of barely above freezing. I go to se the Braves when they come to Boston and we wear Parkas to the games.

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this

Tomahawkin: Sweet. I had totally forgot about Griffey Jr. Thanks for reminding me.

We need a CF. He likes Atlanta. We need a starter, Aaron Harang would be a great addition. Perhaps we can trade Pete Orr and a Player to be named along with cash considerations and a few bats to Cincy for those two. Work it JS. Work it.

By flange1

October 9, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this

Afternoon all,

Did anyone else see the Buster Olney comment yesterday about the Reds trading Ken Griffey Jr to the Braves for a B prospect or 2 and moving Frenchy to center?

DOB, have you heard any more on this one since trading deadline?

Seems strange to me. We have lots of corner outfielders and not much money to spend!

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul, maybe not all that wise but I don’t think Drew is an awful calculated risk either. My guess is they didn’t see any reliable options in the near future and Drew has tremendous upside.

Again, not saying it was a great move but Drew has become somewhat underrated because of all the injuries. But his career AVG/OBP/SLG are quite impressive. Plus he’s a top defender when he’s in the lineup.

Not that I agree, but I could see why a rich team would want to take a chance.

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

No player is worth that kind of money.

What if you get 500 million back in revenues?

By eware

October 9, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this

Must say I like the Will Hoge talk. I’m a pretty big fan, but I’m a little disappointed with his new album that drops today. I feel like he’s trying to hard to be the Boss. But, The Man Who Killed Love was a fan-flippin-tastic album.

I say sign Glavine as soon as we can. Once a Brave, he’s allowed to be my favorite player again. It smells like 1990 in here…

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 1:46 PM | Link to this

wg, I think AJ will follow the money, otherwise he’d have given the Braves a chance.

By beachcomber

October 9, 2007 1:46 PM | Link to this

Would love to have one of those two young Oakland pitchers but from what I hear (I have the dubious pleasure of living about three doors down from a Met’s employee) those are the top two targets of the big spending boys from New York.

DOB - I agree with you on Lowery. He don’t need another guy who pitches to contact.

Ron Roberts - Congrats on your new gig in a relatively beautiful spot of the world. What kind of station - AM, FM, Train, Gas? Just curious!

By Stinky

October 9, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

…It smells like 1990 in here…

Open up a window, then.

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

Payne: Concerning Nancy Drew, please use the appropriate punctuation… It’s “injuries” not injuries.

By Greg in TN

October 9, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this

Afternoon Planet Braves…

We can now thank the New York Yankees for their participation in the fiesta that is the 2007 baseball season. The Joe Torre watch has officially begun in the Bronx as the bombers were anything but in yet another first round exodus. Girardi is a possible replacement, as is Don Mattingly, however SI and the Daily News are mentioning Tony La Russa as a likely suitor, which could open the St Louis job up for TP.

DOB, I also can’t see why TP wouldn’t be interested in sitting down and listening to the Cards if it came down to that, and I think it’d be a hard decision for him to make if the brass in the land of the Arch made him an offer. Time will tell.

Folks that are not wanting to bring Glavine back and focus solely on bringing a young starting pitcher may not realize that there are two teams that are division rivals that are already reportedly looking at bringing in starting pitchers and those are the mets and phillies. That doesn’t take other teams outside of the East.

I think in the short term at least, any openings in either KC or in Washington and folks there will look to Atlanta for potential replacements. That has to be expected with the former Atlanta links in place in both cities in the stead of Kasten and Moore. I believe Manny Acta deserves some consideration for Manager of the Year honors for doing as much as he did with the Nats this year, so no managerial change there appears to be imminent. But it makes sense to look for replacements from a pool you are already familiar with if you’re either Moore or Kasten, so this won’t be the last time players or franchise personnel may be mentioned to go to KC or DC. I think Washington may indeed be a place AJ winds up in with their new ballpark opening next year.

Happy to hear CL had a good doctor’s visit recently. Keep on keepin’ on Lady, you are always missed here when you’re not able to grace us with your presence.

Oh, and before I forget, someone mentioned bringing Kenny Lofton back. I absolutely, positively want no part of Kenny Lofton in a Braves uniform again, ever.

By Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera

October 9, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

Gee, thanks, Dave.

I’m still haunted today, by the way. Can’t get that movie out of my mind. I’ve got to see “The Pledge” again. Or do you think that might diminish the impact somehow?

Don’t give me too much credit for taste, though. After all, I still like those Astros and Pirates uniforms from back in the ’70s.

And speaking of the Pirates, hey Gil in Mechanicsville, Chuck Tanner has as many world titles as a manager as Bobby Cox does. Don’t be hatin’ on Chuck.

It’s nice to see that Shaun’s Left Brain might bring us some more fair and balanced arguments in the future. Funny post.

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

I absolutely, positively want no part of Kenny Lofton in a Braves uniform again, ever

The one thing I’d say about Lofton is, if anything he’s great trade bait in July. Every year he’s going to give you pretty much the same thing, solid production, an asortment of very well performed pirouettes on every fly ball in his general direction, and trade interest at the dead line. Plus, he’d be cheaper than all other options. But I can understand why he wouldn’t be high on the list of stop gap options. But here it is…

Player  G   AB  R  H   2B 3B HR SO  BB  AVG  OBP  SLG
Cameron 151 571 88 138 33 6  21 160 67 .242 .328 .431
Lofton  136 490 86 145 25 6  7  51  56 .296 .367 .414
Winn    155 593 73 178 42 1  14 85  44 .300 .353 .445

Randy still has my vote among this list. Perferably someone better than all three but time will tell. And incredibly, Lofton was better than Cameron this past year. Sure, 15 less points in SLG, but 40 more in OBP plus 1/3rd the K’s. And you certainly don’t have to offer Lofton a long term deal.

By The Ultimate Choptimist

October 9, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

DonCoburleone: I was thinking exactly the same thing. hell, most of the time, I’m able to do my business with minimal, if any, “shlong” touching anyway. But I guess it’s just the way that we have all been socialized in this judeo-christian society to believe that our “area” is so inherently dirty, that if our hands get into the general vacinity, they need to be cleansed. but I digress.

Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera : nothing tops the 1980 powder blues of the braves in my mind. God I wish they’d at least do a throwback game in them now and then.

By Jim

October 9, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

Someone else has been posting using my name. The last couple of blogs by “Jim” were not mine. I also noticed this person posting a “Ha-ha” post about the Mets losing a few days ago. In my posts I will talk about the Braves and offer opinions, but I will NOT ridicule other teams (although I too hate the Mets), other cities, or bash other bloggers. If someone posts under this moniker and does any of the above, it is not me!! I did make a few posts earlier in this blog.

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul, Lofton is 40 which means his production could drop off a cliff at any time. I wouldn’t go near Lofton except maybe a minor league deal.

Also, you always seem to forget that Cameron played half his games in Petco. Not saying his year was as good but I do think it’s closer if you adjust for this fact.

By Lew

October 9, 2007 2:43 PM | Link to this

Ten Paul-Your comment about the revenue generated was right on. Living up here in the Great White North, I am constantly bludgeoned with Red Sox news. A week after signing Dice K, the Red Sox recouped every penny (the whole signing deal AND his salary) in one T Shirt deal in the pacific Rim. ONE T SHIRT DEAL and they were 100% reimbursed.

By Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera

October 9, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this

Oh, God, now T Paul has opened the door to another Shaun lecture about the benignity of strikeouts. Thanks a lot.

I guess we can still hope that Shaun’s Left Brain will be the dominant side today.

By Lew

October 9, 2007 2:49 PM | Link to this

The Braves would be well advised to come up with a marketing program like the Red Sox. If you want Braves items, you pretty much need to go to CNN Center and the Clubhouse store or go to their catalog. In New England, you can walk into ANY grocery store and purchase Fenway Peanuts, Fenway Franks, Fenway Fudge Ice Cream, Red Sox Kleenex and at least two dozen other Red Sox related items-EVERY grocery store. It’s totally amazing the number of items they make $$$$ on throughout an entire geographic region. The Braves could do the same in the Southeast and rake in the bucks, too. I’m surprised that none of the corporate ownership has had tis occur to them.

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 2:59 PM | Link to this

Lew: I know. I have a hard time with these mega deals, but if the team is wise about it, it won’t cripple them. International deals like that DiceK one will continue to reap benefits…. especially if DiceK actually has a good season soon. I don’t travel to Asia all that frequently, if ever, but I would imagine it’s safe to assume the Braves are poorly represented in that market. I can’t think of a big name asian star the Braves have had. Not one. If only for the revenue stream you’d think there’d be at least one.

Payne: I don’t want Lofton. But, you have to admit, he would be considerably cheaper. There is no way around that fact. And, somehow he still manages trade attention so there’s that bonus. And, he wouldn’t be needed for long term. And, even when you compare the splits, Cameron still had a crappy year. But rest assured, I wouldn’t want either Cameron or Lofton. Watching Lofton twirl around in the outfield, in a Braves uniform, would be, well, Kolbian.

However, if Cameron could be had for Lofton money I might reconsider. Might. On the low end of might.

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

Lew, probably has to be a market for it for a manufacturer to pay for the rights to the Braves name and to produce the product. Too many transplants in the south and the Braves haven’t been in the south or in one place for several generations. The Yankees and Red Sox are synonymous with baseball in the northeast and in lots of other parts of the country and even the world. People around the world will buy things with their logos.

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera: lol. HA! Enjoy the show!

By Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera

October 9, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

Shaun, any player’s offensive production could drop off a cliff at any time. Witness Andruw Jones.

Tom Glavine will be 42 next year. His left arm could fall off at any time.

And you guys can argue stats and Petco-Schmetco all you want, the most positive attrbute I notice about Kenny Lofton is his teams are in the playoffs most every year. I guess we can just chalk that up to luck, though, Shaun, the way you do most every time you’re faced with a situation your stats can’t explain away.

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

No. I’ve thought about it. I don’t even know that’d I’d be happy with Cameron making league minimum.

By DonCoburleone

October 9, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this

Braves win 94 next year, win the East by 2 games over the Muts…

By Shaun's South Brain

October 9, 2007 3:14 PM | Link to this

As usual, Nothin’s happening here.

It’s like being stationed in Siberia.

By DonCoburleone

October 9, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

Shaun Lofton is a freak of nature… How much do you wanna bet he hits at least .280 next year with 20+ stolen bases?

Now if you wanna argue that he is old and brittle and he is going to get hurt, thus causing his production to “drop off a cliff” well then that is a completely different argument altogether…

By Thrillhouse44

October 9, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

Isn’t Lofton the equivalent of Icehouse - a headache in a bottle? Didn’t he cause some stress in the locker room his last time in Atlanta?

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul, where do you see that Cameron had a “crappy” year? I’m sorry, I just don’t see it.

By Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera

October 9, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

I don’t mean that last post to be a ringing endorsement of Lofton, just pointing out that he obviously helps teams win. And since, in theory, he’s just a one-season solution, the fact that he’s 40 isn’t really very important. In short, the Braves could certainly do worse.

See Mike Cameron.

By DonCoburleone

October 9, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

I was actually all for Cameron earlier in the year, but he just strikes out too much for my taste. We need to bring in a contact hitter for center field, somebody who may only give you a .260/.320/.380 line but will only strike out 70 or 80 times over the course of a full season. Too many times this season the Braves only needed to make contact to score a run and it just didn’t happen. Andruw leaving will (I believe) help that problem but if we bring in 170-strikeout Mike Cameron to replace him we are right back at square 1… Randy Winn seems like somebody who fits that bill, or even Dave Roberts?

By 22oz

October 9, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

Braves merchandise is well represented by the…ahem..”urban” population. Most of the hip hop artists wear those hideous Braves hats that are all different colors and terrible looking. So the Braves have got to be getting some money from those hats, which cost around $30 a pop, and come in every color and pattern imaginable. Hip hop is booming in “the A”.

I have also seen Braves peanuts in local grocery stores.

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 3:25 PM | Link to this

Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera, yes, but what’s more likely? Lofton is 40. His production is clearly more likely to drop off a cliff than someone in their 30s.

Yeah, Miguel Cairo’s teams seem to be in the playoffs every year, too. Guess he should take over for Kelly Johnson.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 9, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this

I actually think Kenny Lofton would be great in centerfield for the Braves if they just want somebody to hold down the fort for a year or two. Lofton can still play. He is still faster than most players. I know his first time in Atlanta wasn’t a good one but that likely had more to do with his displeasure over being traded than anything. Lofton would give the Braves a solid leadoff hitter who can still get on base and steal some bases. They could go out and find a cheap right handed outfielder who can either platoon with Lofton or spell him from time to time. And quite honestly he would be a helluva lot better than Mike Cameron and his .250 avg.

By mo in the boonies

October 9, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this

Who you wanted to win in last night’s game is all in the eye of the beholder. Personally, having ties to Ohio, we always were more inclined to want the Reds to win, but the Indians were immaterial to us. I found them to be super cocky in the series, especially Lofton. For some one who has been shifted around to 11 teams, and has a commercial mocking the fact, shouldn’t show that much cockiness. So I was rooting for the Yankees. After all, their winning was no skin off my nose, since they are an AL team, and I know their winning would really bug the Mets fans. Also I feel sorry for Torre. (And I sure don’t want Lofton back in Atlanta.)

As for Byrd, when did he become a great pitcher?? He stunk when he was with the Braves, and if Bobby Cox said he was so good, then why didn’t he keep him?? Speaking of urine… I’m thinking maybe they should have done a urine test on Byrd.

And what seems ridiculous to me is the Braves or any other team playing 18 or 19 games against the same teams in their Division. I would much rather see them playing more games in the other Divisions, so we could see how they matched up with other teams more, and cut out all the interleague crappola.

As for Glavine, I don’t want him back, unless the homeboy upstairs, also guarantees that he will also get another first string pitcher. Just adding Glavine to the bunch we already have is not going to cut it.

I’m looking forward to the Rockies/ D-back game, now that should be a game. I would hesitate to pick either one as a shoe-in. And I wouldn’t be afraid to choose either one over the Indians. Those guys are young, lean, and hungry. Also not too sure that the Indians will survive the next series.

By Greg in TN

October 9, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this

TennPaul, I think I’m with you, the more I look at Randy Winn, the more I like.

I just know we had a year of Lofton in ‘97, the guy did not want to be here, and it was obvious that he was not a good fit with this franchise. Lofton hit .154 against Houston in the DS and .185 in the NLCS against the Fins and went right back to Cleveland the next year. I’d have just as soon kept Grissom and Justice myself, but I understood JS’s motivations for the deal at the time.

By Mike

October 9, 2007 3:31 PM | Link to this

one of the things that the Braves must do for next year is find a closer… and there is a certain man who wears pinstripes (at least for now) who will be available…

I say sign Rivera, Torii Hunter, and Glavine and roll the dice with some of the younger pitchers…

also, bringing Leo Mazzone back (I am sure he would listen to offers) wouldn’t be a horrible idea…

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 3:32 PM | Link to this

Too many transplants… team hasn’t been here long enough… Crap. I’ll have to return all my Dodger and Angel gear. Hasta la vista Dodger navigation system. Adios Angels home pregnancy test. No market for you Dodger pooper-scooper. And what was I thinking, Angel Soft Toilet paper!?!?!

I don’t buy that end of it. There might be some reason given for not marketing the team this way, but that doesn’t make it right. Sometimes in business you gotta put the product out there anyway. Sales will eventually pick up. You want all those transplants to start rooting for the home team? Flood the area with everything Braves. It’ll stick eventually. It worked great for the D-Backs and they’ve done it with two different styles of logos in a city full of transplants and real estate speculators.

By Jared

October 9, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

“Tom Glavine will be 42 next year.”

Who cares? You want pitchers who can help the team win. Glavine’s age is pretty irrelevant for a low-risk, below-market one year deal for a soft-tosser pitcher. Glavine below ten million is a no-brainer.

And Kenny Lofton, for all his years in the majors, has yet to be on a team that has won the World Series.

By Dr. Ruth

October 9, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

A pee in your hand is actually a p!ss and a miss.

By Shaun II

October 9, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

Really, DocC, how could you expect Cameron to have avoided striking out so often? After all, he played in Petco. Once he gets away from that Hades for hitters, he’ll never, ever strike out again, and he’ll be The Answer for the Braves in Center.

You just have to be willing to bend over backwards to manipulate the stats to fit your argument. Why aren’t you people willing to do this?

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

TennPaul, the averages of visiting teams at Petco Park: .250 AVG/.311 OBP/.374 SLG. (We only look at visiting teams because there is more variety which is more likely to give us a better sample than just looking at the Padres, which is just one level of offense.)

Major league averages: .268/.336/.422 (Difference of .018/.025/.048)

NL averages: .266/.334/.422 (Difference of (.016/.023/..048)

A quick and dirty way to adjust Cameron’s stats would be to add the difference (either the NL or ML) to his home stats. I’m not saying this is a perfect way to adjust his home stats but it’s better than just looking at his home stats and assuming he’s really that bad at home when it’s clear that Petco takes away offense.

DonCoburleone, yes, Lofton is a freak of nature. But he’s going to flop sometime and why take that chance if you don’t have to?

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this

DonCoburleone, yeah. I think the Phillies need to replace Ryan Howard with Doug Mientkiewicz. Howard just strikes out too much for my liking.

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

where do you see that Cameron had a “crappy” year? I’m sorry, I just don’t see it.
Well that’s your problem.

RJIB: I wouldn’t put Lofton leadoff if they did get him. I’d put him towards the bottom of the line up. Keep KJ or Escobar up top and Lofton at the bottom. Then, the pitcher can bunt him over when needed. He makes sense being so cheap and not requiring a long term deal and walking more than he strikes out. But the fielding. Oh man that’s atrocious.
I’d have a hard time cheering for the man. I really let him have it when he was out here with the Dodgers.

By Jonathan Simeone

October 9, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

I hope the Braves walk away from any talk involving Ken Griffey Jr. He is broken down and can not play defense anymore. Fortunately, I am confident that the Braves understand that Griffey is not worth anywhere near the money he is being paid.

The braves offense is plenty good enough to handle a guy who is more speed and defense than big bat in the outfield. Also, moving Frenchy and his great arm from right doesn’t make much sense either.

By KC

October 9, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

Lew: I agree with you on merch/marketing. Doesn’t make much sense, does it?

Also, I wonder why they don’t bring the prices down on a lot of that stuff. Not only is it free advertising for the team, but people actually paying the BRAVES to advertise for them when they buy this stuff.

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul, but what are you going to do, manufacture all kinds of stuff yourself. My guess is most companies won’t see it worth it to pay for the Braves name when they must pay to put a good product out. I’m guessing the only reason it succeeds with some other teams is because it helps the manufacturer make sales.

And I’m not sure it works as well with the D-Backs as it does with the Yankees and Red Sox. There is Braves merchandise out there but I think what Lew was talking about was stuff everywhere with the logos on them. It does happen with college football merchandise down here. But the Braves aren’t as big as college football (unfortunately, in my opinion).

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this

why take that chance if you don’t have to?

Wouldn’t this fall into the “player who is worth it or a calculated risk that could come up huge” category? Lofton isn’t going to be that expensive. I can’t believe I’m even defending this idea, but, it’d be like Craig Wilson this year… except with trade value.

By Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera

October 9, 2007 3:57 PM | Link to this

Great rebuttal, Shaun. Cairo’s teams have been to the postseason three times in his 12 seasons, and none since 2004. Boy, do I feel rebuked!

You’re helpless as usual in any debate that isn’t stats-driven.

But don’t get discouraged. You just keep on tilting at those non-statistical windmills, Shaun Quixote!

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 9, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

22 OZ, what was meant by “ahem….’urban’”?

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul, how about you show me where you see Cameron had a “crappy” year since it seems so obvious to you.

By Robert

October 9, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this

Off rumors and back to facts … O’Brien blows.

By Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera

October 9, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this

Don’t recognize the subtle use of irony when you read it, huh, Jared?

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 4:09 PM | Link to this

Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera, yes. Well, just imagine someone worse than Cairo whose teams went to the post-season a lot. Mike Stanton.

Just because someone’s team is in the post-season doesn’t mean anything. What does that prove in and of itself? Absolutely nothing. Dale Murphy never played in the post-season. Does that mean he was one of the worst players ever? It’s not about a stats-driven argument; it’s about logic. And yours is extremely flawed.

By Shaun II

October 9, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

Robert, I’ll need stats to back up your observation that O’Brien blows. I can’t use my own two eyes and my good judgment to reach an independent conclusion that he blows. I need figures, or the Great Bill James’ word.

And O’Brien writes for the AJC. That’s an editor-friendly paper. Only stands to reason he’d blow more there. Put him at another paper and he’ll flourish like Mike Cameron at The Ted.

By robert

October 9, 2007 4:18 PM | Link to this

I wish I were an Oscar Mayer Weiner. Oh, I am? Never mind.

By /\/\/\/\Berigan/\/\/\/\

October 9, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

Cameron had a bad year! Ok, a below average year…hit .242, 30 points below CF league average. in 418 ab’s right handed, he hit .222!!!! And only .139 for the month of Sept. The only number I see that I like is his RISP average of .275….

By Kieran from Long Island

October 9, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this

Has anyone here actually seen Mike Cameron play?? The guy stinks, he’s overrated defensively and strikes out every other at bat. The Mets booed him out of town, I guess maybe since he’s from ATL he’ll play better but I would look elsewhere for a centerfielder. Also those of you who want rowand, take a peak at his career numbers before you’re ready to go long term with him.

That Melky Caberera and Scott Proctor for Mike Gonzalez trade is looking a little better right now, isnt it?

By Shaun

October 9, 2007 4:30 PM | Link to this

That does not compute. That does not compute. That does not… That does… That… MEDIC!!!!

By Ron Roberts

October 9, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

Coochboogerjournalist I’m trying to figure out who it is your writing style reminds me of… hmmm…

Beachcomber… FM, Contemporary Hits. Thanks for the congrats.

Eternal Choptomist… Absolutely A W E S O M E screenname!

TO BASEBALL… What I’m wondering is, how does Aaron Rowand come so (relatively) inexpensively, given what the CF market’s going to bear out to presumably be this off-season? I mean, how does his price not go up beyond $10-12 million per season if several teams find themselves interested in him?

I’m in the camp that believes we’d be a much better team with Aaron Rowand than Mike Cameron or Andruw Jones, really. DO’B? Comment?

By tim

October 9, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

Don’t sign cameron..please…I don’t want to see another dp hitting, no clutch .220 hitter in CF. Get speed and average.

By jonez1

October 9, 2007 4:33 PM | Link to this

There are some good young pitchers down in St. Petersburg. You won’t be able to trade for Scott Kazmir, probably, but maybe James Shields or Andy Sonnanstine can be had. The Rays need a SS, a good catcher, and bullpen pitchers.

Seems to me a deal might be made… Escobar for Shields, or Escobar and Brayan Pena and a solid reliever for Shields, BJ Upton, since they have Rocco Baldelli recovering and wild card Elijah Dukes available.

Don’t remember Upton? I’m sure Bobby Cox still remembers the homer he banged off the scoreboard in Orlando three springs ago, when BJ was still 19. He just became an outfielder this season and he is comfortable and makes a lot of plays. Speed to burn, arm. All five tools, young, and cheap. Younger brother Justin is with the DBacks in RF, playing for at least one more week now.

Shields is 12th rounder who developed another pitch while at AA and has been nasty since — ask any ALer. With the Braves he is solid third starter and will learn from Smoltz and Hudson to become one of the game’s best.

Deal like that is possible; works for both teams.

By Bobo

October 9, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

I heard from insider that a certain SS was going to Balt. for Rio.(sp) could that be?

By Jim

October 9, 2007 4:36 PM | Link to this

Robert,

Can you shift your gaze away from Cox’s alledged deficiencies for a moment to consider some of the things that Torre did in this series? No lefty in the bullpen until Clemens went down despite the fact that Cleveland’s top hitters Hffner and Sizemore (and Lofton) were lefthanded (Maartinez is a switch hitter). Not bunting in any of a number of 1st and 2nd no out situations with the result being a DP or pop out. Taking Hughes out after 4+ innings on Sunday when he was still dominating -> using up Chamberlain when it might not have been necessary.
Not having someone ready to replace Wang until it was bases loaded and none out — and only then because of the controversy over the HBP call. Not pinch-hitting for Mincayvitch (phonetic spelling) in the 4th inning with the team down 3 runs and runners on base.

I am not trying to kill Torre — his accomplishments speak for themself — but just arguing that if one were to examine more closely the decisions of most big-league managers, there would be plenty of fodder for criticism.

By Guy Wilson

October 9, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this

Braves get an owner that cares about winning! One who will put money made by the club back into club. What a day that will be!

By tim

October 9, 2007 4:41 PM | Link to this

I think the braves need to work on bunting for at least a month this off season. That probably cost us the 5 games

By Buffalo NY Braves fan

October 9, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this

Good afternoon denizens. I have been catching up on posts for the last few days.

Haren or Blanton AND Glavine? That would be huge. I am sure JS has a plan to get a solid #2 pitcher that none of us have been thinking about, possibly from a middle of the road team that does not get much exposure.

As far as CF goes. DOB has said that Schafer needs to develope offensively a little more. Does anyone think that he can produce more than the .223 that Andruw gave us this year, or even the same, that it would really be a problem for him to come up and cut his teeth at the big league level? If the kid can “go get the ball” and isn’t quite there offensively, it would be just like having Andruw for all of last season, except with Schafer you get an upside and not a player on the decline. Maybe we could all watch him grow and develope as a star just like we did with Andruw for the past 11 years.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 9, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this

Kieran, you are right about the Gonzales for Cabrerra and Proctor trade. But, then again, I’m sure JS is kicking himself for not making the Chris Reitsma for Matt Holliday trade before the ‘06 season. Could you imagine this offense with Holliday, Tex, Chipper, Frenchy, McCann, Johnson, and Escobar?

For anyone arguing with Shaun about Cameron just stop. You won’t win. I would rather have Winn than Cameron and I would rather have Lofton as well. As far as I’m concerned Cameron has Mondesi written all over him. I just don’t have a good feeling about him.

I also have to be honest about this sentiment that says it makes no sense to go after Rowand with Schaefer waiting in the wings. Look, anything can happen and I’m sorry but prospects are never “can’t miss” in baseball. I would rather sign Rowand to a five year deal and have him play next year and then trade him if Schaefer is ready. From what I’m hearing Rowand will get its not as if his contract will make him untradeable.

I am just confused sometimes about what direction the team is trying to take. If you want to win next year, putting fossils like Cameron in CF is not the option. I would rather have Damon. Yeah, he may have the arm of a five year old girl but at least I know he will hit higher than .240 and not strikeout more than his walks and hits combined which is exactly what will happen with Cameron.

By Jim

October 9, 2007 4:53 PM | Link to this

How many Brave hitters would have laid off of Clemens’ splitters or Mussina’s changeups the last 2 days?

The Indians showed some good situational hitting that has been all too absent from the Braves’ batters over the past decade.

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this

Ron Roberts, how many times do I have to comment on Rowand in the same blog?

Yes, he’s better than Cameron. So what? Kyle Lohse would be a good fifth starter, but does that mean the Braves are going to pay his free-agent price? Probably not.

Whether the Braves would be a better team with Rowand in CF is not just a decision made in a vacuum. You must first decide if that’s how you want to spend $10 mill per year for the next five or so years (it’s not how they want to spend it; they need to spend it on pitching) and do you want to block the path of a top prospect (Schafer) who could be ready in a year or two? (Answer again, is no.)

You need to keep things in context, not just look at things as if other factors aren’t going to play into the decision.

By Renegator

October 9, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

Guys:

Shaun is either Mike Cameron’s cousin or his agent. He is going to “hard sell” Mike Cameron until the cows come home twice.

By Jim

October 9, 2007 5:11 PM | Link to this

Good point Robert (JIB),

If the trade of Reitsma for Holliday was any real possibility, then JS should be faulted for not making it. The Braves needed a closer when Smoltz went back into the rotation and Kolb (another brilliant move) proved a total diaster, but Reitsma never gave any indication that he was more than mediocre at best. Shouldn’t the Braves’ scouts have known what a talent Holliday was and gone for the deal even though they had an immediate need for a closer? A Reitsma type closer could have been had at a very reasonable cost from elsewhere.

And please — no Cameron. Gregor Blanco would be a better option to hold the position until Schaffer is ready and the money spent elsewhere.

By DonCoburleone

October 9, 2007 5:27 PM | Link to this

Shaun I never argue with you cuz I actually agree with you most of the time; but you love to embellish your arguments so much that it makes them irrelevant. EG: “DonCoburleone, yeah. I think the Phillies need to replace Ryan Howard with Doug Mientkiewicz. Howard just strikes out too much for my liking.”

That is a total extreme and you know it. The difference between Ryan Howard (.291/.397/.610/1.007 career) and Doug Mientkiewicz(.271/.359/.407/.766 career) offensively is so huge you should be ashamed for even making such a silly statement. I’m not talking about passing on Mike Cameron and just throwing in Jordan Schafer. I’m talking about passing on Mike Cameron (.251/.341/.445/.786 career w/ 160k’s this year) for someone like Kenny Lofton (.299/.372/.423/.794 career w/ 51k’s this year) or Randy Winn (.286/.345/.424/.769 career w/ 85k’s this year). Bottom line, quit trying to use extremes to make your argument, it makes you sound stupid…

By DonCoburleone

October 9, 2007 5:32 PM | Link to this

“I think the braves need to work on bunting for at least a month this off season. That probably cost us the 5 games”

PREACH ON BROTHER TIM!

By Julia

October 9, 2007 5:32 PM | Link to this

I have n-e-v-e-r been to Myrtle Beach so I decided to do a G-o-o-g-l-e search for SHRIMP SAMMICH there. There appear to be several restaurants that serve a SHRIMP SAMMICH. I cannot be certain but none seem to offer the same type SHRIMP SAMMICH found at my favorite GLADIOLA GRILLE IN NOLA. I am not clear on what a calabash style shrimp sammich is but there are many calabash seafood restaurants in Myrtle Beach. I fear that in Myrtle Beach the **SHRIMP SAMMICHES may come on b-u-n-s rather than r-o-l-l-s. Someone should research this for us and let us know.

By Referee

October 9, 2007 5:34 PM | Link to this

How many people on here(besides the two “participants”)are not sick to death of this “feud” between Ron Roberts and Southern Jackass? I thought so! Now, why don’t you two get it settled, meet and duke it out, or something besides this back and forth crap on here! It’s silly; it’s childish, and it is boring to the rest of us. It’s time to grow up, pick a site, or STF up!

By Adirondackdave

October 9, 2007 5:37 PM | Link to this

DOB - The Braves bring so many positives into this off-season that I’m quite confident about next year. They certainly have plenty of position talent and with new ownership appear to have some payroll flexibility for the first time in 4-5 years.

Reeling Glavine in early should be a priority. The other chess moves (young quality starter, CF) become clearer when we know we have nailed Glavine down. The pen looks better than ok to me and when Gonzalez is ready, could/should be stellar.

Next three months of team-building will be great to watch from my point of view. And we have the best guy in baseball to do the off-season work.

By RC

October 9, 2007 5:40 PM | Link to this

As long as we are throwing out center field scenario’s, the one I’d like to see explored is trading with the Red Sox for Coco Crisp. He’s already said he expects to be traded to make room for prospect Jacob Ellsbury, and is really cheap for the next few years (4.75M in 08, $5.75M in 09, $8M club option in 10, $.5 buyout). The two biggest obstacles I see are: 1)The Braves probably don’t want to trade away many of their prospects right now, since we have depleted the system recently with trades. 2)I can’t think of a single thing the Red Sox need that the Braves can offer, unless they are shallow on prospects at a certain position I’m unaware of.

By tommyg

October 9, 2007 5:43 PM | Link to this

Why not put Escobar in center. He certainly has the arm, speed and talent to do the job. That way we can keep Renteria at SS and Kelly at 2B everyday. Use the money for pitching. I dont think scoring runs will be a problem especially Andruw KKKKK Jones out of the lineup. Just a thought.

By RC

October 9, 2007 5:45 PM | Link to this

Actually, one advantage the Braves could have in pursuing a Coco Crisp trade would be bullpen pieces to trade, one of the few areas that the Red Sox could actually use some help (after Okajima and Papelbon it’s real shallow, and I don’t Gagne being brought back)

By The Ultimate Choptimist

October 9, 2007 6:03 PM | Link to this

Jim: actually JS was trying to get Holiday included in a Reeksma-to-the-Rockies trade and that was a deal breaker. Come on…dude’s not that stupid to turn that trade down!

By /\/\/\/\Berigan/\/\/\/\

October 9, 2007 6:14 PM | Link to this

Robert (JITB),

Good post at 4:53. Like you said, no guarantees that a can’t miss prospect will make it. Braves seem to rarely even want to go with rookies unless and until forced to. And if Schafer is ready in 2009, then we have a really good guy to move into left!

Like the Damon thought as well. He always gets key hits in playoff series, can still run even with the leg problems…and yes, throws like a 5 year old girl! ;)

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2007 6:14 PM | Link to this

AdirondackDave, at this early stage I’m inclined to agree with you. Unless ownership changes its collective mind or whatever, which I don’t see happening, they should have a little cash to spend. But not nearly as much as some here are thinking….

RC, Coco Crisp could be a CF option, certainly. But don’t expect the Braves to give up much in the way of prospects to get him.

By AZBravoFan

October 9, 2007 6:22 PM | Link to this

Don’t know about the feasibility of this, but what about Mussina for the rotation? He’s due to make around 11-12 mil. I think. I know he looked pretty bad this year, but maybe the old NL change of scenery would do him some good. I’m not sure what it would take to get him, and you’d have to get the Yanks to pay some of his salary probably.

By Ron Roberts

October 9, 2007 6:28 PM | Link to this

Hey DO’B… do you spit people’s heads out after ya chew ‘em off?

Sheesh.

And, I’m not of the mind that the CF decision doesn’t get figured out without regards to pitching, either. But if the Braves are going to spend $10 million a season to fill CF for the next 2 seasons or 5, I’d still prefer to see ‘em go with a proven commodity in Aaron Rowand over the diminishing returns of Mike Cameron to go with our awaiting another Braves prospect to step up and succeed or fail. Actually, if we have a phenom coming up the pipe, that should answer our LF/CF issues for many years with an Aaron Rowand addition.

I know we’ve covered this before, but the Braves have a lot of options for the starting rotation, and yeah, they may not be tantalizing, but they’re not uber-expensive, either, nor are they all that horrible. Between Hampton, Cormier, Reyes, Bennett, Buddy Carlyle and Chuck James, you have six guys to try and fill three rotation spots after Smoltz and Hudson.

So my theorizing wasn’t only in a vacuum, my friend. And I don’t see why my asking for a comment necessitated such a snarly reply, personally.

I know, I know; the AJC management loves you, (actually, most of us here do, as well, and appreciate the work and extra time you put into this blog for us, as well, myself included but you welcome me (and anybody else) to complain to the higher-ups… but really, that’s not necessary, either.

Hey Julia, had lunch at the House of Blues/Myrtle Beach, and saw, on their menu, a fried shrimp po boy, and thought of ya. Bon appetit, whomever’s split personality you are. I had the blackened shrimp pasta, personally.

Referee… trust me, I’m sick of the crap, too. Scroll back, if you wish, to see who (once again) made the first lash-out. It’s a never-ending game for this guy; I’d think a guy claiming to own a freaking successful horse ranch in Virginia, after honorable years in the military would have more couth and better things to do with his time than creating goofy screennames and siphoning his testorone into his internet usage.

I’ve never hidden where I was, and won’t, either. Because in the end, it’s all just worthless talk and hot air. Sorry it frustrates you; imagine being the target.

By /\/\/\/\Berigan/\/\/\/\

October 9, 2007 6:29 PM | Link to this

RC,

I seem to be all for any CF but Cameron, but I’d LOVE to have Coco in CF for us!!! Many feel he has surpassed Andruw these days as the best CF in baseball. He has never hit .222 for a season. Andruw hit .231 with RISP, .169 with RISP and 2 outs. Coco hit .272 with RISP, .245 with RISP, 2 outs. Of course anyone would be better than Andruw of 2007…..

By Jonathan Simeone

October 9, 2007 6:35 PM | Link to this

As far as Kenny Lofton goes—he did not enjoy his time in Atlanta—so there is very little chance he would ever play for the Braves again.

As far as getting pitching from Tampa, are you kidding? How could that team afford to trade a quality starting pitcher? I like B.J. Upton, but I saw several instances this year when he did not run out ground balls. That poor attitude concerns me, but I would be willling to take a chance on him, because of his great skills.

By Lew

October 9, 2007 6:39 PM | Link to this

Ron Roberts-Dude, getting chewed out by DOB is a right of passage. Don’t take it so personally. Everyone gets reamed upon occaision and it won’t kill you. Believe me. He probably forgot about it the minute he cranked up the trusty IPOD. I learned the hard way to never mention Night….Oops, I’d better not jump in that river again. Too cold for a swim today.

By /\/\/\/\Berigan/\/\/\/\

October 9, 2007 6:45 PM | Link to this

AZBravoFan,

Interesting though on Mussina. Down side is that he hasn’t pitched 200 innings since 2003. People hit .311 against him last year. And for the first time since 1994 he had less than 100 strikeouts. But, like you said, he might benefit from the switch in leagues. Clearly, the NL is the hacking league, which means more folks would swing at his knuckle curve….and he is a gamer….certainly a thought….

By DonCoburleone

October 9, 2007 6:50 PM | Link to this

DOB I completely agree with you on payroll, it is probably going to go up by 5-10% and that is it! Lets think about this for a minute people… EVERY team in baseball has a self-imposed “salary cap”. Most teams differ on where the cap is, but its safe to say that payroll + all other expenses must be 5 to 10 to 20% less than the revenue being generated (thats how a BUSINESS works). I guarantee you, even the Yankees and Red Sox have a “salary cap”; it just so happens that those teams generate substantially more revenue than the Marlins or D-Backs or even the Braves. Now, with that said, maybe Time Warner was operating at a 20% margin all these years, and Liberty comes in and says “well, we could get away with a 5 or 10% profit margin if it means increasing the overall value of the franchise”. That is basically the only way payroll will go up, which means the increase is not going to be substantial at all.

If you want to argue that Liberty is going to cut other costs (outside of payroll) or generate new revenue streams then that is a different argument (and would more than likely take years to implement anyway). Bottom line, if our payroll was at $85mil this season the absolute biggest bump we are going to see is probably around 10%, or $93-$94mil total payroll for 2008.

BASEBALL IS MORE OF A BUSINESS THAN FANS RECOGNIZE! (Especially when you are owned by a corporation).

By Tyler

October 9, 2007 6:50 PM | Link to this

I don’t really want Coco only because we would have to give up players for him. If we gave up very minimal I would be okay with it. However, I don’t think it would be a bad idea to give Gregor Blanco a shot at CF and if not look towards Winn or Coco.

My predictions for next year:

Glavine is signed, and Gregor Blanco and Cameron battle for CF. The rotation will be Smoltz, Hudson, Glavine, Hampton, Reyes/Bennett. Lillbridge will be the utility infielder and B.Jones will platoon with Diaz. Soriano as closer, Moylan setting up until Gonzalez comes back.

What I want to see is the Braves get Blanton, Haren, Harden, Harang, Shields, Snell, or Gorzelany. Don’t see most of those happening though.

By Referee

October 9, 2007 6:55 PM | Link to this

OK Ron, you say you are ready to quit if he will. Southern Jackass? How about you?

By KC

October 9, 2007 7:02 PM | Link to this

DonCoburleone: I’m with you. I think low 90’s is probably a pretty good guess.

By DonCoburleone

October 9, 2007 7:13 PM | Link to this

Is Harris coming back next year? Or is he a free agent or can we non-tender him? I really don’t want him back next season, his first 6-8 weeks this year was without a doubt a fluke…

By Adirondackdave

October 9, 2007 7:22 PM | Link to this

DOB - One other thought. I seem to remember Smoltz experimenting with a knuckleball a couple years ago. Is that still a work in progress or has he dropped it entirely? I’m wondering if he could extend his career an extra 5 years with it…

By KC

October 9, 2007 7:30 PM | Link to this

Tyler: I agree with you for the most part, but I’ll respectfully disagree on a few points:

First, if the Braves get Cameron, he won’t “battle” with anyone for the CF job. He’ll have it from day-1.

Also, you think Chuck James will just be pushed out of the rotation? If the Braves acquire another starter in addition to Glavine… I’ll agree with you. Otherwise, he’s still got the inside track on the 5th starter job.

Keep in mind that James had an ERA of 3.55 heading into his last start of July, which ranked him in the top 15 in the league.

Yes, he’s a flawed pitcher, but up until the final 2 months of this season when his shoulder started bothering him, he’s always been pretty good at getting outs. HOWEVER, Cox seems to think so highly of Reyes (Bennett too, but especially Reyes), that James’ job certainly isn’t safe. Don’t count James out though.

As for Moylan… He is a guy you can bring in when you need a ground ball (or just an out PERIOD) in a pinch… or when the other team’s best right-handed hitter is at the plate.

Because it’s so valuable to have flexibility in your use of Moylan, BC will prefer NOT to box him into a set-inning role.

Acosta will have a shot at earning the set-up job. It’s also very possible that BC will go setup-by-committee, as he did the last month or two of this season (and it worked well).

By Julia

October 9, 2007 7:33 PM | Link to this

SHRIMP PO’ BOY SAMMICHES are something I could enjoy. When shall we get together?

By Daybed Wagmoe

October 9, 2007 7:34 PM | Link to this

yup, different tastes in movies i guess. i bought the two-pack of “the departed” and “the pledge” at wal-mart when the departed came out, and i think i was expecting it to be better if they were going to package it with a best picture. i guess i got really into it and wanted more from the ending. oh well.

By Braveheart

October 9, 2007 7:36 PM | Link to this

Lew: Just read what you said about the marketing failures in not flooding the area with Braves gear. Agree with you. Just got back from Walmart and Kroger and half the store seemed to be UGA related stuff. And you can’t go into any gas station without seeing NASCAR trinkets and gear around. Lighters, toy cars, bottle openers. All types of stupid little stuff. You don’t see the Braves do that as much at all.

Ron Roberts Congrats on the new job. But be honest, are you taking the job because it is a better career opportunity or is it because you will get to watch more Braves games on television in Myrtle Beach than in New Orleans? I know you Roberts. I know your love of the Braves takes precedence over all else.

As for DOB killing people, he is the Notorious DOB after all. As the lyrics of the late great Notorious B.I.G. went You’re Nobody Until Somebody Kills You That somebody on the blog is DOB.

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2007 7:37 PM | Link to this

Adirondack, that knuckleball was only used when he was having major arm problems, just something to get him through that season. The elbow was barking that year and he didn’t want to have surgery until after the season.

Knowing Smoltz, if he had to he’d use it again someday. Ultra-competitive and resourceful….

Ron Roberts, every time you don’t get response you want, you get all indignant. What gives?

Complain to the “higher-ups” about what? My man, if you want me to not answer or even refer to any of your comments, you say the word. Otherwise, don’t expect me to say something to humor you with my responses. Wasn’t anything personal about it. But if you want to complain to “higher-ups,” be my guest. Some others here might not be thrilled with the end results if you were to get something accomplished by complaining however (i.e., me cutting back drastically on my involvement here).

By ncscoots

October 9, 2007 7:41 PM | Link to this

if Time Warner was operating at a 20% margin all these years…

In some other accounting universe, perhaps, LOL. Margins on baseball businesses are razor-thin for most operations, even in this day of baseball prosperity. At least, that’s the way it looks from P&Ls that the public gets to see (and I wouldn’t disagree that the accounting is creative, LOL, but regardless…)

Liberty won’t throw stupid money at the franchise the way an Arte Moreno might, but most baseball owners make profit from asset appreciation (not operations); the smart business ploy is to budget for success, to increase value. Under-budgeting a valuable asset relative to its business competitors costs more in long-term value than the relative pittance saved short-term. Unless, of course, you’ve had a sucking chest wound of red ink such as the Marlins did for years. No choice but to clamp down, in that circumstance.

My long-winded Alan Greenspan-ian point is that Liberty will try to find a budget that hits the sweet spot in preserving asset value, not whether it’s a lower margin than some other company ran, or whether it’s some percentage higher or lower than last year’s or 2009’s. They’ll spend what McGuirk can convince them to spend. It’s his job to come up with a figure and justify it.

By Stinky

October 9, 2007 7:48 PM | Link to this

I learned the hard way to never mention Night…

Dob is a Night Ranger fan? OMG.

By Here We Go Again!

October 9, 2007 7:49 PM | Link to this

One big problem at the Ted… NO WARM WATER- OFTEN NO SOAP- OFTEN NO HAND TOWELS!!!!!!!!!! FIX THE PROBLEM!!!!

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 7:57 PM | Link to this

Payne: Actually, up until I saw Lofton’s season and the countless posts by you, I had Cameron filed away in the “Declining Mediocrity” folder. Nothing to toss 8 million a season to. But after reading post after post of you splitting his season down to the smallest minutia, and it still looks bad, I have no choice but to say it’s a crappy season.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 9, 2007 7:58 PM | Link to this

oh, the humanity! dob is threatening to leave the blog! this is a tactic heretofore only used by sja and jimmy smith. both have left, and both have come back. heck, even the whiny little jerk that was banned forever has come back. this blog is like eating potato chips … can’t eat just one.

now, joe torre. once a brave. now a yankee. if joe torre is fired can the braves hire some of joe torre’s coaches? oh, that’s right - all the braves’ coaches are coming back. chino and terry and eddie and brian and hubby. could have some fun switching their pants in the lockers.

and rr, this journalist congratulates rr on the new job in myrtle beach. can program beach music and can program cousin music and have it covered. close to peaches, though.

and now, this journalist would like to apologize to dob for all the old girlfriend jokes of the past few months. everyone knows dob has no old girlfriends :-).

and now, why are there no braves tee shirts for sale? braves fans have no physique for tee shirts. shop for overalls and find braves overalls.

and will cubbie be back with the braves or will cubbie go elsewhere? pack the rabbit, so to speak.

By GSU-Lee

October 9, 2007 7:59 PM | Link to this

DOB, could you just give me the skinny on Jordan Schafer? What kind of player is he? Power? defense?

By KC

October 9, 2007 8:05 PM | Link to this

nscoots: “but most baseball owners make profit from asset appreciation (not operations)”

This is especially true of corporate owners. In their case, asset values affect share values.

I remain convinced (both because of things McGuirk has said, and because it makes sense) that Liberty’s angle is “Bring the value of the franchise up without operating at a deficit”.

I doubt they care much about turning a profit from year to year. Everyone knows they’re likely to be a 4-year owner.

House flippers aren’t concerned with rental income. They’re concerned with selling the house for significantly more than what they paid for it. Liberty is a franchise flipper in this case.

But again… I think Don C’s estimate (low 90’s) is a good one. I think that’s probably about where the payroll will be next season.

By ncscoots

October 9, 2007 8:10 PM | Link to this

I had Cameron filed away in the “Declining Mediocrity” folder

But, TPaul, what’s your park-adjusted attitude? :-)

By Claudell Washington

October 9, 2007 8:47 PM | Link to this

Yo DOB - what do you think about the new STEVE EARLE album? It took a few listens, but is growing on me fast — 1st and 2nd tracks are excellent…

By Bob Warja

October 9, 2007 8:48 PM | Link to this

What are you doing in Atlanta? Read your blog for the first time today and I have to say you should be in LA, Chicago or NY, you are a talent that extends beyond writing baseball. I guess they either must be paying you well or you love Atlanta.

By geauxbraves2000

October 9, 2007 8:53 PM | Link to this

It’s probably be mentioned here, but a good stop gap for CF could be Jacque Jones (.285/5/66, 70K in 453AB) and I feel he could be had for a case of bats with the Cubs throwing in some $$. His power has decreased, but I watched him play some games in CF and his defense was adequate.

I won’t miss AJ at the plate, but sure will miss the superman in the field. Even if he has lost a step or two, he’s still the best.

I don’t know much about Cameron, and at the risk of being a kool-aid drinker, from what I’ve read on this blog (ie, K’s), he may not be the best interest for this lineup right now. I’m not saying Jacque Jones is, but he’d be cheaper.

The offense should be okay, spend spend spend on pitching.

I’d be okay bringing Glavine back, but it won’t break my heart if he doesn’t come back. Maybe the Braves should look to the future instead of living in the past. Then again, maube he could be quite an influence on Chuck HR James, et al.

Geaux Braves!!

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 9:15 PM | Link to this

Scoots: You’re right, I should normalize that across the entire field so it won’t look so poor. HA!

By TheSouthernJackAss

October 9, 2007 9:30 PM | Link to this

Referee if you’re so sick of what goes on here on this blog…maybe someone should cram your head up your a$s for you…then you wouldn’t be able to see anything sickening here for awhile?…How about that A$sClown?…you like dukin’ it out, bring it big man!…

As for this punk-a$s, oily-faced fat-a$sed radio boy—he’s insignificant!—he’s a coward, a loudmouth, and has the mentality of a 12 year old! I’m tired of putting up with his constant, childish whining, and his foul-mouthed personal attacks!…Complaining to the AJC “higher-ups” won’t do him any good either, they’re probably tired of it too…only thing I have to say is, if I ever meet up with the fat, little punk, he will have ample opportunity to advance his cause with ol’ JackAss…so for now, he can keep on trying to convince himself, along with anyone else that will listen to his juvenile babble, that TheJackAss is as unintelligent and as destitute as he can only hope that I am!…that doesn’t diminish my wisdom, intelligence, character, bank account, or lifestyle one damned scintilla!…and none of that is anyone’s business, but it sure as hell seems to get the better of the radio boy…

So if any of you want to throw down with TheJackAss…bring it!…Simple as that!…TheSouthernJackAss has never backed down from anyone…and TheSouthernJackAss sure as hell ain’t going to start backing down from some worthless pukes on a baseball blog!…

So all you children run along and play now!…JackAss envy is b!tch ain’t it boys?…

By Andy

October 9, 2007 9:39 PM | Link to this

Adjustments for ‘08:

These are in no particular order. I know I am not being perfectly reasonable considering payroll constraints, but I would really like to see these things happen for next year!

1. Drop Chris Skeletor Woodcrap…I never figured out if he was playing for us or the other team? (1.) Tie Drop useless game over fastball fastball fastball right down the middle Tyler YATES
2. Trade for Blanton(innings eater) or Nate Robertson(good looking young pitcher…Tigers could use Renteria as much as I would hate to see him go) or sign Livan Hernandez(innings eater.) Possibly sign Kyle Lohse…take a flyer on Mark Prior? -I know I will get grief for mentioning Mark Prior. We definitely won’t get him considering his salary and the unpredictibility of gimp Hampton, but I wouldn’t mind seeing him get a fresh start with us. Some have mentioned Noah Lowry, and he has health issues, as well.
3. Send Chuck James to AAA Richmond so he can learn another pitch and build his endurance so can he can actually pitch 6 or 7 innings.
4. Cross your fingers Hampton can pitch
5. Hope that Mike Gonzalez can recover(losing him was the reason I said our season would go down in flames last yr)
6. I really like Aaron Rowand as many of you do, but again, with salary being an issue and the Schaefer kid close, we won’t sign him. I wouldn’t mind seeing Coco Crisp out there, but he has three years left on this contract,I think.Crisp hits like crazy against us at the Ted, and he has a heck of a glove(remember the catch against Hudson?) I am very excited about Brandon Jones. I think he is the real deal. Matt Diaz should be given every shot at playing full time in left, as he did when Willie washed up, again.
7. Drop PETE Orr. Who cares if he is he best battleship or board game player in the clubhouse?
8. Re-sign Mahay
9. Hope that Bobby Cox learns how to manage again in close games and in extra innings.

By TheSouthernJackAss

October 9, 2007 9:41 PM | Link to this

…and stinky you’re one worthless, retarded sonofab!tch…too damned dumb to pour p!$$ out of a boot even if the how to instructions were on the heel!…

By Stinky

October 9, 2007 9:50 PM | Link to this

Ooh, look. SJA is in the house. And it looks like he’s on the outs with his former roommate, Ron.

I hope they work it out.

I don’t know what went wrong with them: Ron spinning his Chuck Mangione records in the AM; SJA manhandling his horsies. If ever two h030 boys were meant for each other, them two is they.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 9, 2007 9:51 PM | Link to this

stinky talking toes. has stinky no original thought? even appropriated the name stinky from one of this journalist’s posts. sad, but not clever. pitiable, but not worthy of euthanasia. perhaps stinky should just blog with stinky and meltdown will take care of it all. and stinky taking shots at lew will surely bring on the whiny little jerk calls. oh, well, at least normalcy has returned with sja and rr. goats are on the horizon.

By Tyler

October 9, 2007 9:58 PM | Link to this

KC-I think that if Cameron comes in and has a season like Raul Mondesi. Gregor Blanco’s only real downfall is his power numbers which wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world.

As for Chuck James, I think he could be used in a trade to Oakland if a deal were made. If we got Haren we would probably have to give up a pitcher along with Escobar. Chuck James and Escobar along with other pieces might get him. We have Reyes, who has more upside, throws harder, is younger, has a 3rd pitch, and has proper mechanics. Also, from what I’ve heard McCann thinks very highly of Bennett, so he could find a way into the rotation. If we got Glavine and another stud, our rotation would be very very deep. My guess is we get Glavine and see how it goes.

As for setup, Acosta might prove to be unreliable since he tends to give up a lot of walks. Mahay must be resigned, and maybe we could find another arm to use as a setup?

By Ron Roberts

October 9, 2007 10:00 PM | Link to this

DO’B… A civil response would’ve been all I wanted, man. Agree, disagree or be undecided, and it won’t matter to me one iota. It’s the tone, man. That’s what gets me “indignant.” I never once wanted to (or have made a suggestion that I would) complain to the “higher ups.” Actually, You always bring that up, (why, I don’t know…) when it never crosses my mind. Anytime I’ve had an issue w/somebody, I’ve taken that beef right to them (and you know this). I merely said what I said before, to head it off at the pass (to use ‘Dukes of Hazzard’ terminology). If you read what I wrote, last post, you’d see I wasn’t saying anybody needed to air a complaint. You just always make the suggestion, and I’m telling ya, it’s not warranted.

I don’t have an issue w/you, your damn fine work or the info that comes in your answers. The only time I have a beef is when you get indignant when you respond to somebody’s question. That’s all. If you wish to claim you don’t get surly when replying to a question, then we’ll agree to disagree on that assertion.

All-in-all, I dig what ya bring us.

Braveheart… Ok, you got me. :) Good to be in Fox Sports Southeast and SportSouth territory again, for SURE!!!

By Tyler

October 9, 2007 10:06 PM | Link to this

I mean to say if Cameron has a year like Mondesi it could be passed to a younger player

By TheSouthernJackAss

October 9, 2007 10:07 PM | Link to this

Stinky—how’s the little woman?…oh that’s right, I already know!…you little p!$$ant…

By TheSouthernJackAss

October 9, 2007 10:12 PM | Link to this

DOB—It’s quite apparent that some of your readers require, should we say, a more delicate approach…

By journalist jimmy smith

October 9, 2007 10:15 PM | Link to this

journalist has learned much about goats by blogging here. jimmy smith had no idea goats could do what sja and rr have suggested. and tonight’s blog is a return to yesteryear. a never ending battle for truth, justice, and the american way. and even julia appears to be on the move to myrtle beach. what is calabash anyway? and speaking of fried seafood, whatever happened to the fish fry scribe invited all bloggers to attend? baby seal has been waiting with baited breath (very apt description). and now, stinky has baited breath as well. stay away from this journalist’s seal! a derivative of the ongoing goat talk, only seal talk. and whither carolina lady tonight now that carolina lady is feeling chipper again? feeling chipper? uh, can say that on a blog? change that to feeling sprightly. and lew must be drawing tonight. can see lew’s work being on the front of a braves program soon. braves should contact lew and make that happen. and the hunt is on at the double dime. “uh, here deer, here deer, here deer, c’mon deer, come to uh, chipper.” and is dob goin’ a huntin’ with hoss this year?

By Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera

October 9, 2007 10:18 PM | Link to this

A tribute in song to Shaun, with apologies to the late George Harrison:

Stats Man

Take this baseball lesson from me:

Your eyes can’t judge reality.

‘Cause I’m the stats man

Yeah, I’m the stats man

Should Cameron appear a bust,

His stats you must Petco adjust.

‘Cause I’m the stats man

Yeah, I’m the stats man

Those intangibles make me rage and roar.

You can’t measure heart; I’m a numbers w*******.

You can make your point; I don’t know what for —

You can’t outlast me, this we know for sure.

STATS MAN!

(cacophonous guitar solo)

‘Cause I’m the stats man

Yeah, I’m the stats man

I might not seem a pompous a*

(Ah-ah, Mister Palmer)

If they played on paper, not on grass.

(Ah-ah, Mister James)

‘Cause I’m the stats man

Yeah, I’m the stats man

And I make sense to no one but me.

STATS MAN!

(second cacophonous guitar solo)

(fade out)

By TheSouthernJackAss

October 9, 2007 10:21 PM | Link to this

…and DOB I guess you can go ahead and continue doing your job here—it looks like you have just been given approval by the bayou boy…

By Stinky's Little Woman

October 9, 2007 10:30 PM | Link to this

JackAss is that really you? Say the word and I am out of this trailer. You can be proud of me. There are ways to remove tattoos and I can get dentures. I know you like me without dentures during our special times. I’ll only wear them when we go out. Call me sugar and let’s work things out. Tiny won’t know what hit him.

By Stinky

October 9, 2007 10:34 PM | Link to this

Stinky—how’s the little woman?…oh that’s right, I already know!…you little p!$$ant…

You know the email address. The little lady said to Man up and send her a picture, if you’re not a mule, that is.

By Wayne in Utah

October 9, 2007 10:35 PM | Link to this

Any baseball folks on tonight? I have been MIA for a while. Sorry about that.

A thought I had earlier while driving 250 miles tonight: AJ came up when he was 19. If Schafer is THAT good with the glove, can he learn on the job? He surely couldn’t hit much worse than AJ in the 8 hole, could he (of course, without the power potential at first)? Just a thought.

If this were possible, then that negates the need for a bridge CF’er. Then, we sign Ryan Langerhans to a AAA contract and keep him in reserve.

I still say we should make a play for somebody like Ryan Church of Washington, especially if AJ goes there. Or guys like Duffy in Pittsburgh, or Sullivan in Colorado, or Freel in Cincy (his stock has gone down with all the injuries this year).

DeJesus or Winn are other candidates that would not take a kings ransom to get. The more I think about Cameron, the more I would take him ONLY if he came for 5 mil or so for two years.

Joe Torre While I am a big JT fan, I can’t see how he keeps his job. How can he, when given the ultimate payroll and team full of super stars. While I don’t think that is the correct formula to win, it is what he was given, and to be honest, he has always worked with a loaded deck (short some rotation guys this year though).

So, so long Joe. Take a year off, somebody will need a good people person like you in 2009.

I like those two guys from Toronto, Marcum and McGowan. I can choke down Glavine, but only if we add one more strong arm.

By Geranium

October 9, 2007 10:35 PM | Link to this

Looks like Ron Roberts will soon be broadcasting from the dinosaur’s neck at the Goofy Golf Course. Myrtle Beach should be a good fit.

By chrisklob

October 9, 2007 10:41 PM | Link to this

Francisco, very funny stuff!

By jp sartre

October 9, 2007 10:53 PM | Link to this

If you’re not out, you’re in.

By Navigator

October 9, 2007 10:58 PM | Link to this

Atlanta writers/fans seem to have trouble letting go of previous players. In that regard AJones and MVick are in the same category. Everyone with a grasp on reality know that these players are gone forever, but for some reason keep talking about their history, stats, etc. Folks get over it, for professional sports are businesses. As in any business, employees rotate in and out. Let’s stop talking about life time employees. In American business, that’s a dinosaur that died out a long time ago.

By The REAL Sartre

October 9, 2007 11:02 PM | Link to this

I live alone, entirely alone. I never speak to anyone, never; I receive nothing, I give nothing… When you live alone you no longer know what it is to tell something: the plausible disappears at the same time as the fiends. You let events flow past; suddenly you see people pop up who speak and who go away, you plunge into stories without beginning or end: you make a terrible witness. But in compensation, one misses nothing, no improbability or, story too tall to be believed in cafes.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 9, 2007 11:06 PM | Link to this

okay, rr has done it now. dob has left the blog.

By chrisklob

October 9, 2007 11:06 PM | Link to this

Greetings Wayne, long time, no see my friend. Yes, it seems to be pretty quiet in here tonight baseball-wise. Just a bunch of folks who like to insult each other.

You raise some interesting points. If I were Joe Torre I would have told Steinbrenner where to shove it last night during the press conference. What GS did to him after Game 2 was complete crap. Torre doesn’t need the money and he surely doesn’t need a job, any job, to further his legacy as one of of the great managers. He deserves so much more respect than he was given.

It’s true that he’s had a well-paid roster full of All-Stars and future HOF’ers. That doesn’t necessarily make a good team. The glare of the NY media is bright and that clubhouse has been full of XL-sized egos for a long time.

The point that I think many people miss (including many here) is that every team has a roster full of guys that want to beat you just as much as you want to beat them. You’re not going to win all the time. Not even with the largest payroll. It’s just not going to happen. Look back at their last six or seven seasons and you’ll see roster issues with every team. Sometimes those issues are health-related, other times they are media-driven (steroids), other times they are just bad personnel decisions. In my mind, Brian Cashman is as culpable as JT for that franchises failures. Is anyone calling for his head?

That being said, isn’t it fun watching Colorado, Arizona and to a lesser degree Cleveland with their rosters full of youngsters play at such a high level?

With regards to our CF situation next year, my feeling is that Schaffer isn’t as developed offensively as AJ was at the same age. I’m sure they are concerned with bringing him up too soon and “ruining” him. The game is littered with guys that were rushed to the big leagues before they were ready, either physically or emotionally.

I’m curious to see what they will do. There have been many ideas bandied about on this blog. Some are better or more feasible than others. I’m sure that JS has some ideas in his head and will come up with a suitable solution. It’s important to remember that Shaffer played at two levels of A ball this year. He’s a ways away from the bigs and there are plenty of “can’t miss” guys that crapped out at AA ball.

By Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera

October 9, 2007 11:15 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Chris. I must say, I’m surprised the word “w-h-o-r-e” gets censored on the blog. Seems such a tame word compared to some that get through.

By TheSouthernJackAss

October 9, 2007 11:19 PM | Link to this

Stinky Is your email address still limpwristedroundmouth@yahoo.com?…

By chrisklob

October 9, 2007 11:23 PM | Link to this

Francisco, you’re right. I didn’t realized that the “w” word had been censored yet someone used a slang word for his “equipment” earlier tonight and it made it to the blog. Doesn’t quite seem right to me.

By scribing scion of the southernjackass

October 9, 2007 11:24 PM | Link to this

lookee here, lookee here, lookee here. just a minute now. this be the scribin’ scion of the good ole sja. there be many of us. many of us i tell ya. not all of us be legitimate. but i be the eldest. the big lug was known to spread his seed back in the day. more action than the stilt and more kiddies across this grand land than el padre garvey.

so lookee here, lookee here, lookee here now. you looking? like me poppa, it be hard to miss me. i be a big ole fella. like me poppa, i’m a hunka, hunka burning love. thank ya, thank ya very much. like me poppa, i crap lightning and fart thunder. steam blows from me ears and fire from me mouth. me heart is made of ice. don’t dare look in me eyes. you will never be the same if you so dare.

i have many more things to say but i be already tired of you pukes. so i leave now, never to come back just like me poppa and his former nemesis, current friend jjs. the sja/jjs rivalry was like the northern ireland troubles. no one thought 26+6 could ever equal 1 but me poppa and sja made it happen. it was a little unsettling at the end when sja acted like rocky balboa at the end of rocky IV and told the crowd that if you can change and i can change, we all can change. ‘twas not reagan who broke communism in russia. ‘twas rocky balboa with his powerful message after he beat drago. but alas the sja and the jjs united in their fight to shun, shut up and shut out the shut ins. once united, those hounds from hell sent shivers up the spines of the spineless, spindly shut ins.

now we need peace in the middle east between sja’s arafat and ron roberts israel. some say it will never happen. me poppa has always said the blog needs him to be a terrorist on here because there is much profit to be made in hits and relief from boredom from the instability he causes. so whither jjs or whither rr or whither another formidable foe, there will always be a formidable foe for me poppa sja to tangle horns with.

me poppa was once a marine. now he be a soldier of fortune. he creates the instability because there is much money (or hits) to be made from the instability. the organization of a society for the possibility of war is its principal political stabilizer. allegiance to the blog requires a cause; a cause requires an enemy, and the presumed power of the enemy sufficient to warrant an individual sense of allegiance to a blog society must be proportionate to the size and complexity of the society. that is how big me poppa be.

hear me little stinky, you pathetic little dweeb? not even the real stinky. a regular denizen who has assumed the stinky name. stealing stinky’s name from stinky. imagine that. how pathetic. poor stinky. banned and then a b******* spawn takes his name to bogart the blog. who be that regular denizen stealing the identity of stinky and bogarting with that name? any guesses? speculate and the scribing scion of the sja will confirm. but here be a hintie. several posts in the 6 tell us the man behind the tricks. but not to fear stinky imposter. there are many bloviating bloggin’ bogarts amongst all day and night.

a@@clowns! now off to me hummer to eat me spinach. stay out the way or me drive ya over.

By The Grinch

October 9, 2007 11:29 PM | Link to this

Well, I see some things never change. In case any of you are wondering, I’m just really backed up with work and school and haven’t had much in the way of free time (and to be honest, when there isn’t much free time there are more exciting ways to spend it). Just wanted you all to know I haven’t forgotten about you…how could I with all the hang-ups you’ve left on my answering machine? I’ll be back at further length this weekend. Behave yourselves. And Shaun, you’re still wrong. :-)

By Gil in Mechanicsville

October 9, 2007 11:43 PM | Link to this

Ah baseball, sigh, how I love the game so….. So many old friends about tonight, nice to know they didn’t go the way of Braves’ baseball on TBS.

Kudos to TBS by the way, I really thought they did a great job of covering the Championship series. Not so great was the wrap up show but, hard to hit a homerun right out of the box.

I don’t know if this has come up before so you guys that are a little more knowledgeable about baseball rules can clear this up. Doesn’t the Player’s Union have a rule about signing a contract for less money with another team? Something about it came up when A-Rod was traded to the Yankees. I ask this in regards to Glavin who stands to leave a couple of million on the table if he signs for less than 10 million.

By TheSouthernJackAss

October 9, 2007 11:43 PM | Link to this

Unbelievable!…

By TennesseePaul

October 9, 2007 11:46 PM | Link to this

Wayne: How goes it? I’m not sure Schafer is ready just yet. If he is “the future” then I’d imagine they’d want him to see some ball above A. AJ flew through the system. I recall very well his brief but dominant stint in AA Greenville. I went to see him before he passed on to AAA and then to the WS. Man he made it look easy. Always did.
But anyway, I think the main point on Schafer is, he needs more seasoning before he comes up. But an added bonus for this is, if he takes another year or two, we’ll have him under control until he’s almost 30.
Just for a point of reference on “the future”, he has only played for 3 years (or 2.5 years) and only as high as A ball. Here are his stats…

G   AB  R  H   2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO   AVG  OBP  SLG
49  182 18 37  12 3  3  19  13 6  13 49  .203 .256 .352
114 388 49 93  15 7  8  60  15 9  28 94  .240 .293 .376
136 565 86 176 49 10 15 63  23 15 56 126 .312 .374 .513

Those are the first 3 seasons he’s played. The first two weren’t all that impressive and the most recent one came along with 126 strike outs against A ball pitchers. Now, I know, I’ve read the sermons about K’s and productivity, but this is the minors. If the kid is striking out this much against that low of pitching, he’d be eaten alive in the show. He needs more time. Bring him up now and you’d destroy the most precious of intangibles, Confidence.

Now aside from all that, I’d also argue he needs another season in the minors because, I don’t know, what if this past season was “luck”? Or, another way of seeing it, what if he loses it against higher levels? I find it hard to really bank on him to be “the future” out there in CF. Maybe he will be, and I hope he will be, but I don’t want to bank on it just yet. I’d like to see what the kid could do against higher levels before I pencil him in to the line up for 2009.

By Wayne in Utah

October 9, 2007 11:52 PM | Link to this

**Sorry to be so long in getting back to you Chris. In a hotel room in Boise, with lots of paperwork.

Your probably right about rushing Schafer. Although AJ was in single A at 18, and progressed from High A to AAA before coming to Atlanta near the end of 1996, at the tender age of 19. He flat out KILLED it at all levels though! Pretty amazing.

I am torn on Glavine. While I would like him to tutor JoJo and/or Chuckie (whoever doesn’t get traded, and I think one will), I still have a hard time “liking” him after deserting the Braves to go to the Mets.

Take care…..

By David O'Brien

October 9, 2007 11:54 PM | Link to this

Kings of Leon … fantastic show tonight, folks. Wish you all could’ve been there. Them Southern boys can flat-out rock.

By David O'Brien

October 10, 2007 12:00 AM | Link to this

Ron, I went back and realized I had disagreed with a few things you asked about. Guess that’s why you got upset. Anyway, believe me, wasn’t a planned thing. Just happened to be a few of your queries I responded to.

It’s all good, my man. No problems.

Later

By WaynesWorld

October 10, 2007 12:06 AM | Link to this

yep, just a bunch of people insulting each other. maybe coach will show up, and he and utahwayne can continue their little cat fight too!

By Steamboat

October 10, 2007 12:07 AM | Link to this

FYI, Schafer and a couple of other Brave are playing the AZ Fall league, for the Peoria Javelinas, who kicked off the schedule tonight with a win; but Schafer didn’t play… here’s the link for those that want to keep track.

By chrisklob

October 10, 2007 12:11 AM | Link to this

Greetings Gil, I think that the rule you are thinking of concerns only current contracts. When ARod was trying to get out of Texas he had an opportunity to go to Boston. As I recall, he was willing to forgo about $20-$25 or so million on his current contract to make the deal work. The union balked because of this rule and said no way.

This situation is different because Glavine had a player’s option. He is not obligated to play for the Mets next year, he simply has the option to play for them for $13m. He probably will either retire or play for less than $10m (plus his $3m buyout) but that is his right because of the option.

10Paul, totally agree with your post. You essentially agreed with what I said in an earlier post but with a lot more substance. One thing I can say in Shafer’s favor is that he hit very well in a very, very pitcher friendly park. In fact, Baseball America named Pelican’s park something like fifth or sixth most difficult parks to hit in the minors. I haven’t seen the splits but it appears that all of the stats that I consider important improved over his numbers at Rome.

Strictly for the record, the last line of stats that you posted includes 30 games at Rome this season so he hasn’t even played a full season at High A yet. Perhaps it’s a little soon for him to be crowned as a savior yet, as some on this blog would like and it’s clear to me that JS will have to do find someone to replace AJ, at least for the short term. Nonetheless, the numbers are quite impressive.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

October 10, 2007 12:18 AM | Link to this

Evening Wayne, I have become a bit more pragmatic in my old age, while I may not like a player, if he can help the team I will root for the team, not much different than liking a guy and seeing him leave. That is the nature of the game these days.

All this talk about Schafer, I can hardly wait for him to come up through the system. Wow, I have been floored by Grady Sizemore. What a find he is for the Indians, talk about a player stepping up.

By chrisklob

October 10, 2007 12:22 AM | Link to this

Wayne, no problem at all. I certainly know what traveling on business can be like.

I’m torn on Glavine too. Personally, I try to take out feelings and make it a business decision. The big question to me is how much he has left. I don’t base that question on his last start but more on his age. He’ll be 42 next season and at some point everyone runs out of gas.

I have no doubt about what he can teach the kids. I just worry about what he can do every fifth day, especially late in the season.

As for trading JoJo or Chuck, I’m very torn. I think JoJo has a much greater upside, at least until Chuck improves his physical conditioning and develops a third pitch. JoJo looked great in his last start or two. Is Chuck still hanging windows in the off season.

I’m guessing that one of the two is traded also but it depends on what happens with the CF position.

By TennesseePaul

October 10, 2007 12:25 AM | Link to this

chrisklob: Yes. Thanks for pointing that out. I forgot to add that line in my original post. His third season was split between two “levels”, low A and high A.

You are correct in your reference to the Pelican’s park. From my understanding it’s the hardest park to hit in of all parks in America, but I could be wrong in the totality of the ranking. Nevertheless it’s supposed to be ridiculously hard to hit in. That is the park that pretty much made Salty a star. He mashed in that park. Oddly enough, he then struggled in his next season at AA. But I think that was partly due to injury and management. Blauser didn’t make too many good impressions from what I can gather. 1 and done and his season tanked and all the hot prospects’ numbers suffered. Not a good way to break into managing. Maybe all those kids had a hard time manuvering around his chin in all those small minor league dugouts.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

October 10, 2007 12:39 AM | Link to this

If, and that is a big if, Tom Glavin were to return to the Braves, the team would have to be careful of rotation line-up with Chuck James and Glavin. There styles are similar so an opposing team would have an advantage facing them back to back or even in the same series. JoJo on the other hand is a big strong power pitcher.

By Hai Kurate

October 10, 2007 12:59 AM | Link to this

When DOB snaps,

Disillusioned sycophants

Get their feelings hurt.

By uga-brave

October 10, 2007 1:08 AM | Link to this

wow so this is how some of you guys spend the offseason. if you guys really have to kick someones butt, i have a suggestion, drive to athens and find WILLIE MARTINEZ. that guy could use a wake-up call.

as far as baseball goes no to cameron and no to lofton. lofton for obvious reasons and cameron strikes out way too much. the braves already have that strike out thing covered.

By Lew

October 10, 2007 1:12 AM | Link to this

Heard but not seen. Oh, The Anonymity. Keep the home fires burning, but try not to burn the house down. Good Night. Don’t forget to spray Raid on the bedbugs.

By uga-brave

October 10, 2007 1:27 AM | Link to this

want a dynamic roster changing type of trade thought. how about this, johnson, brandon jones, reyes, james, and a prospect to the reds for brandon phillips and harang. phillips plays second hits leadoff and harang becomes a great # 2 pitcher. smoltz, harang, hudson, glavine and whomever, would take my chances.

probably a real long shot but i love harang. power pither that goes nine.

just think we need another young horse in this rotation.

By The Murph Man

October 10, 2007 1:42 AM | Link to this

It seems to me that the addition of Tom Glavine and his twenty plus quality start potential coupled with the 84-78 record of the Braves equals the playoff’s.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)

October 10, 2007 2:28 AM | Link to this

Edgar Renteria would bring from either the Detroit Tigers or St.Louis Cardinals a package of prospects headlined by OF Cameron Maybin(Detroit) or CF Colby Rasmus(St.Louis) to fill the hole left in center field. I would send Renteria to the Cardinals for CF Colby Rasmus , RHP Mitchell Boggs and RHP Brandon Dickson. I would then sign the left handed hitting CF Kenny Lofton and platoon him with the right handed hitting Rasmus in CF. Leaving Matt Diaz and Brandon Jones to platoon in LF. I would go with a six man bench consisting of two outfielders , one catcher and three infielders. Colby Rasmus is a 2005 1st round pick who hit .275 with an OBP of .381 , 29 HR’s and 72 RBI to go along with 18 SB’s. He is a rifle armed five tool CF with speed , power and nothing but upside who is capable of making the jump from double AA much like Francoeur and McCann did. His younger brother , RHP Cory Rasmus is already in the Braves minor league system. RHP Mitchell Boggs was drafted by the Cardinals in the fifth round of the 2005 draft and like Rasmus is a Georgia native.Brandon Dickson was signed as an undrafted amatuer free agent in 2006 and is an Alabama native.

By /\/\/\/\Berigan/\/\/\/\

October 10, 2007 7:09 AM | Link to this

Bring Me the Head of Francisco Cabrera,

Classic post at 10:18 last night! ;)

By Billy Walsh

October 10, 2007 7:50 AM | Link to this

The greatest closer in major league history is going to test the market. Imagine if the braves had Mariano from 1996 to the present. How many rings would Cox have? If we cant sign Glavine, how about Mussina? I think he still has a lot left in the tank. A change from the brutal AL East to a pitcher’s ballpark in the national league couldnt hurt.

By J Teague

October 10, 2007 8:19 AM | Link to this

Am I way off track in thinking that we should consider a trade of Torre for Cox?

By ssiscribe

October 10, 2007 8:19 AM | Link to this

Top of the morning, denizens, as the Scribe settles in for another day of quiet on the Braves front.

This time of year is weird when you carry playoff aspirations into the final week of the season, only to fall short. There is emotional carryover that pushes your interest into the first week of the postseason, with baseball on throughout the day and into the evening for several days in a row.

But with the quick conclusions to Division Series play, we’re left with a big gap between the first round and the start of the League Championship Series. And for Braves fans, this is the time when the buzz from the final month sprint for a playoff berth wears off.

It’s like being on a bender or a emotional rush, then coming down. You feel disconnected. Your head hurts. You just don’t feel right. The teams that were out of it for weeks leading up to the end of the regular season already have processed their hangover, sobered up and now are pushing through into football and hockey and leaf changing and pumpkin festivals.

As for the Braves, and the denizens of Braves Nation, that processing continues. And it’s so quiet right now, you can hear a foam tomahawk drop.

To sign Glavine or not to sign Glavine, that indeed may be the question. I think you have to seriously look at a veteran presence, a left-hander who, despite his final two-week swoon in New York, still posted very solid numbers. I’m certainly not suggesting you bring Glavine back and expect the guy who won Cy Young Awards in 1991 and 1998. But for a No. 3 starter? You could do a heck of a lot worse.

With that said, the Braves must (and I believe, will) pursue another starter. If it means giving up talent in a trade, I think it will happen. If it means giving up Edgar Renteria, I don’t see that playing out. I know I’ve said Renteria probably would be the linchpin of a deal for a good middle-of-the-rotation starter, but all I need to do is revert back to Aug. 2. Sitting in the upper deck at Turner Field in that dreadful eighth inning against the Astros — the inning where the season turned sour — and watching Renteria hobble off the field, it turned out the Braves playoff hopes hobbled away with him.

In hindsight, the Mike Lamb grand salami off Rafael Soriano may have allowed the Astros to tie a game the Braves eventually lost, but Edgar’s injury would play a big role in the evaporation of the Braves’ playoff hopes. Atlanta had scored 38 runs in its three previous games, all victories, and the boost given by newly acquired Mark Teixeira had filled the clubhouse and the blogs with World Series talk.

Then came Aug. 2. The Braves ran out to a big lead. Jo Jo Reyes couldn’t hold it. Renteria hurt his ankle on a ball hit up the middle in that disaster of an eighth inning, and limped off the field. Lamb’s slam tied it; pitcher Jason Jennings won the game for Houston with a base hit in the 14th inning.

Going into that game, the Braves were 57-51 and the talk of baseball. By the time Renteria returned on Sept. 8 (he had the one plate appearance in Cincinnati that was aborted when he reinjured the ankle), the Braves were 72-69. Granted, not a big difference in record, but by then, the Mets had opened up distance in the division and the Padres had opened up distance in the wild card.

Edgar’s veteran leadership and stabilizing force in the No. 2 spot would have made a huge difference. I think you’ve got to bring that guy back. He hit .310 after returning to the lineup, with six multi-hit games in the 18 games he played in September.

Plus, given the injury woes of Chipper Jones the past four years, you’ve got to make sure you have options for that side of the infield not named Pete Orr or Chris Woodward. Trade Renteria, and Yunel Escobar — who has to play everyday somewhere in 2008 — plays shortstop. But if Chipper gets hurt, and many of us believe there will be a prolonged stretch again next summer when Hoss won’t be in the lineup, who plays third?

(Speaking of Hoss not being in the lineup, bad news on Marian Hossa not being likely to skate for the Thrashers tonight against his former mates of Ottawa … maybe we should change that Hoss’s nickname.)

I digress … Chipper. Yeah, if he gets hurt, who plays third? If you have Renteria manning short, Escobar can play third when Chipper is out. When Chipper is healthy, Escobar plays second base full time. That moves Kelly Johnson back to the outfield, provided Johnson — who was impressive in his first season at second base and hitting anywhere from the top to the bottom of the lineup — isn’t part of a deal for a starter this winter.

I know second is Escobar’s third position behind short and third, and eventually he’s going to be this team’s everyday shortstop (unless he takes to second so well the Lillibridge kid ends up at short, where he played quite a bit between Mississippi and Richmond this season). But Escobar plays the game at a higher level than many players with tons more big-league experience. He has to be in the lineup permanently next season.

As for center field? There are a variety of candidates out there. No sense speculating on them now until the World Series is over, when players can file for free agency and we see who is available. This much is certain: There will be nobody who plays defense like Andruw Jones. There also will be nobody who demands the type of salary the Braves would’ve had to cough up to keep AJ in a tomahawk.

Locking up Mark Teixeira? That’s the way to go. Just don’t see it happening this offseason, not with Scott Boras as his agent. But I really believe you’ll see Tex in a Braves uniform beyond 2008. It might cost a steep penny, but with the switch-hitting, Gold Glove first baseman, you pony up the cash to make it happen.

Alas, a little scattershot talk on this Wednesday morning. In Denver and Phoenix and Cleveland and Boston, 2007 remains at the forefront. The gold trophy sits eight victories away. For the rest of the nation, including the capital city of the South’s great jewel, the focus is locked on February.

Lots will happen between now and the time the bats and balls are rolled out onto the pristine green grass at Dark Star. But for now, the October slumber continues.

The Scribe abides.

—30—

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 8:21 AM | Link to this

/\/\/\/\Berigan/\/\/\/\, forgive me. I forgot to only judge Cameron in his non-walk, non-sac, non-HBP plate appearances and to ignore his home park and his power.

By bravos11

October 10, 2007 8:22 AM | Link to this

I think a good candidate for CF is Corey Patterson. He is from the Atlanta area and may not be to expensive. He steals bases which is what the team needs at the top of the order. He is not even very old, he could be the answer on a 3 year deal.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 8:29 AM | Link to this

/\/\/\/\Berigan/\/\/\/\, also I forgot to ignore Cameron’s likely asking price compared to similar centerfielders and the fact the Braves would NOT have to give up any players for him.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 8:33 AM | Link to this

I think people are thinking I’m arguing that Cameron is some kind of awesome player or something. I’m arguing he is a good option for the Braves because he is a solid player and is going to be relatively cheap and is not going to require the long-term contract that all the other free agent solid centerfielders will require.

bravos11, Patterson is a fine option if you like your center fielder to make a lot of outs and not hit for all that much power.

By TommyP

October 10, 2007 8:35 AM | Link to this

RonRoberts: I don’t know how you put up with his crap for this long.

No woman alive suffers from PMS as drastically as DOB.

It’s a waste of money if we throw $8 mil Cameron’s way.

Rowand for that money and that many years? No.

There are cheaper alternatives out there that will give you solid production and be a more valued move.

By Malkatraz

October 10, 2007 8:35 AM | Link to this

DOB,

Long time Man in Black reader, first time poster. Just wanted to comment that I saw Josh Ritter last night at 9:30 in D.C. and it was really, really good. The band was tight and he was really chatty, but he’s a funny guy. Thanks for writing a great blog!

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 8:48 AM | Link to this

TommyP, who exactly are those cheaper options? Who is cheaper and better that would not require the Braves to trade at least one good player?

By bravos11

October 10, 2007 8:50 AM | Link to this

Corey Patterson is not a world beater by any means, but he could be a cheaper route than other choices. He has hit over 20 homers in a season, and the braves do not need power to begin with. He can bunt which nobody on the team can do, any when he gets on base he can run with out getting caught, something else this team cant do. He is an option that not many have discussed, but one that could make sense if the organization wants to spend most of the money on pitching, which it should.

By Efrim

October 10, 2007 8:53 AM | Link to this

Coach

Would you trade Brandon Jones for a one year rental of a player??? I really don’t think Rasmus would come to Atlanta in that trade. Especially with Jim Edmpnds age and injury history. Rasmus is going to be their CF for many years to come, not the Braves CF.

By Efrim

October 10, 2007 8:59 AM | Link to this

Shaun

Don’t bother dude. For some reason they have something against Cameron, maybe fearing he will have a similar season like Andruw did. For the money, he is a solid option in CF next year. I have no issues giving him the job. Would be great in my mind.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 8:59 AM | Link to this

bravos11, Patterson’s career OBP/SLG: .298/.414. ‘nuf said.

Oh, yeah, Patterson only struck out 65 times and hit .269—those are the only thing that matters to a lot of you, so he must be a “good option.”

By Hai Kurate

October 10, 2007 9:07 AM | Link to this

In Shaun’s screwed-up world,

Averaging .242

Exceeds .269

By Hai Kurate

October 10, 2007 9:10 AM | Link to this

Better to strike out

One hundred and sixty times

Than just sixty-five.

By Hai Kurate

October 10, 2007 9:13 AM | Link to this

Corey Patterson,

Kenny Lofton, Coco Crisp —

All better options.

By bravos11

October 10, 2007 9:17 AM | Link to this

I mean compared to Cameron, who is older,K’s more, and can not lead off, Patterson could be a nice option. Again I am not saying he is great or anything crazy, but all things considered he is a free agent I believe , so we would not have to give up any players and he could lead off and actually be a threat on the base paths. What does everybody else think of Patterson as an option for a couple of years?

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 9:21 AM | Link to this

Hai Kurate, in my “screwed up world” batting average is far from the whole story because it ONLY takes into account hits in ONLY non-walk, non-HBP and non-sacrifice plate appearances AND it also doesn’t take into account whether those hits are extra base hits or singles. Taking all that into account, batting average is a great way to judge a player offensively, isn’t it?

By Efrim

October 10, 2007 9:25 AM | Link to this

Hai Kurate

You are making no sense. Crisp can pick it, but the man does nothing at the plate. The fact that people are bringing up Corey Patterson is laughable. He is an automatic out. Kenny Lofton is not someone I would give the everyday CF job too in ATL. Isn’t he 55 years old???

By A

October 10, 2007 9:27 AM | Link to this

Great Article! I will be very upset if we dont play Boston AT ALL in inter-league play. Thats BS, we are building a nice inter-league rivalry. I think this is the first time in a few years where we haven’t played them. I kind of like Seattle but Oakland is boooooring!

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 9:31 AM | Link to this

Hai Kurate, better options if you ignore age, salary, and stats that matter to run creation relative to age and salary and ballparks.

bravos11, with a .298 career OBP, I don’t think you want Patterson leading off (or hitting anywhere else in the lineup). If you liked Oddibe McDowell and thought he should have led off for a contender, I don’t think you’ll like Corey Patterson.

By Hai Kurate

October 10, 2007 9:31 AM | Link to this

Shaun takes the bait. It

Really is quite like shooting

Fish in a barrel.

By DAP

October 10, 2007 9:32 AM | Link to this

uga-brave i like your trade proposal, though i dont want to lose reyes and james. we still need some younger guys for the future. also, withyour trade proposal, escobar still hits leadoff, and brandon phillips hits 5th or 6th. hes got great RBI power. also, hes one of the best defensive 2nd basman ive seen. ive been interested in him since i saw him in ‘06.

By Hai Kurate

October 10, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this

Taking advantage

Of such simpletons gets old —

Have a nice day, y’all!

By Steamboat

October 10, 2007 9:55 AM | Link to this

The thing I don’t get about Cameron is the contract that some are saying he’ll sign. The Padres apparently offered him a 3 year deal (don’t know how much money) early this year, and couldn’t get it done. And they said they DO want him back, but decided it’s in everybody’s best interest to wait until after the season to negotiate.

They (SD) aren’t exactly loaded in the OF. Bradley is a F/A; Giles is getting up there; they’ve got Brady Clark and Jose Cruz…

I believe it’ll take 3 years/$10 mil to get Cameron. Maybe not; if it’s 2 years/$8 mil, maybe it makes sense, but I doubt it will be. I know he’s from Atlanta, but I wouldn’t count on a guy like him leaving millions on the table to come home.

My concern with both him and Glavine is not that they’d be bad options, just that I hope JS works some magic to really improve the team, rather than just stabilize a couple of positions.

By George

October 10, 2007 9:56 AM | Link to this

Dumb poll today… Which centerfielder should Braves persue? The cheapest of course …. according to JS they cannot afford anything else.

By dcarp23

October 10, 2007 9:57 AM | Link to this

Really interesting article here from Baseball Prospectus where they look at a twist on the quality start stat to determine the pitchers in each league who gave their teams the best chance to win. In the NL, Smoltz was first, Hudson was fourth and Tom Glavine tied for fifth.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 10, 2007 10:01 AM | Link to this

Crisp hit for a better average than Cameron did this year so I don’t see how Cameron is the better option. Another thing is this obsession with power. Some of you are like a 16 year old who had his first real girlfriend. You guys get all hot and bothered and excited. Power is not everything. Besides this team has enough power with Tex, Chipper, Frenchy, McCann, and Johnson. If a centerfielder can be acquired that can play defense and hit for average then who cares if he hits homeruns. What did all those homeruns do us this year? Last year? The year before?

Look at the Rockies. Sure, they have guys with power but what makes that offense really go is that they have guys who hit for average and have speed. Playing for the three run homer is dangerous baseball. It is an all or nothing approach and the fact is, whether you want to admit it or not, that way more often than not its the nothing instead of the all.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)

October 10, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Efrim , you have no idea what you are talking about. Renteria is under contract through 2009 , that is two years , not one. Jim Edmonds is under contract through 2008. Apparently you are unaware that the Cardinals have Ryan Ludwick , Skip Schumaker and of course Rick Ankiel , All of whom can play CF. The Cardinals have six players who saw action in the outfield in 2007 and a total of ten on their 40 man roster. The OF is hardly an issue for the Cardinals. The trade I proposed is actually very common and it happens all the time. Does A.J. Pierzynski , Carlos Delgado or Jim Thome ring a bell ? That is three trades or examples and I’m not going to make a list , it’s to long. Trading an established veteran for a group of youngsters with potential is by far the most common trade seen in MLB. Did you already forget what we traded for Mark Teixeira ? The Cardinals would love to have Renteria back and the Braves need a real CF prospect who can compete in spring training and not be a payroll issue.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

October 10, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this

DOB, I saw another Charlie Robison show over the weekend. As usual, he was good. I’ll probably never convince you to liking his stuff, (see last year’s Jerry Jeff Walker discussion), but I’ll go ahead and recommend a few songs just in case, and maybe somebody will pick up on it:

Life of the Party album:

-Sunset Boulevard

-My Hometown

-You’re not the Best (but you’re the best that I can do)

-Lovin County

-Indianola

Good Times album

-New Years’ Day

-El Cerrito Place

-Big City Blues

-Love Means never Having to Say you’re Hungry — (Grinch would love the content of this one)

-Photograph

Step Right Up album

-John O’Reilly

-Rain

-Tonight

-Desperate Times

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 10:06 AM | Link to this

Hai Kurate, yes. I’m the one who can’t see beyond batting average and strikeouts and doesn’t take into account outs rate/OBP, power, strikeouts, ballpark, contract, age, etc.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

October 10, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this

Oh and stay away from the “Barlight” and “I want you Bad” crap that you hear from Charlie on the radio. That is to Charlie what you say “Stand” is to REM.

By Lew

October 10, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this

I love the creativity of some of these ridiculous trade scenarios. Trade the entire team for someone who had one good year or someone who is not worth much of a damn to begin with-or maybe someone old, mediocre and washed up. How about trading half our team (or maybe just our starting shortstop and second baseman) for minor league players with absolutely no track record? Maybe trade all of our dead wood for someone else’s studs. Are y’all getting enough sleep? Been taking your vitamins? Maybe y’all should start taking Ginkgo Biloba to aid your cerebral circulation. Lord knows, the level of cerebration has dropped this overnight.

If the reason we won’t go out and sign Aaron Rowand, the best free agent center field option is because we have Joe Superstar waiting in the wings to take over in two years (though this is highly speculatory in my opinion), then why the hell should we spend $$$$$ (translate as absurdly ridiculous salary) for any of the paragons mentioned in these proposed trades? If we only need a short term solution, there are options from within the organization. Cheaper options. Options we will not have to trade players for or pay outrageous salaries to, thereby saving our available cash for what we really need and CAN’T provide from our own system at the moment-PITCHING.

Of course, filling the CF gap from within is boring and mundane. It doesn’t allow you Jr. GM’s to talk utter nonsense. It actually utilizes logic and fiscal responsibility. Just why would ANYONE choose to use logical and fiscally responsible means of dealing with a problem? It’s just so dull.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 10, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this

Well, I think this idea that Cameron will only get $5 or $6 mil a year in a two year deal is absurd. I’m sorry. This isn’t 2000. Its 2007. Cameron will get at least $8 mil. If Juan Pierre can get $9 mil and Gary Matthews Jr. can get $10 mil, then I think its apparent that somebody with Cameron’s resume will get at least $8 mil. Now, the question is is he worth that kind of money. I say HELL NO!

By DAP

October 10, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

i dont think so many people on here would be taking dumps on cameron if it werent for the fact that he may cost $8mil per season.

personally, and i think many on the blog feel this way, i would like for any extra money to be spent on pitching in 2008. if a guy like cameron was a $1mil kinda guy, or a league minimum kinda guy, it would be fine, but i feel like $8mil could be better spent. i would rather bring up blanco and bat him 8th all season, and be able to afford another pitcher than pay cameron.

one good thing about cameron though, is his veteran leadership. hes a good guy, and would be valuable in that way. if we go with a youngun’ in CF we are left with edgar and chipper as everyday veterans. mccann and francouer will be on that list soon. how much is that really worth though?

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

Steamboat, good analysis. Much more reasonable than a lot of other posts on Cameron. I have no idea what he’ll command. He only made $7 million this season and he’s in his mid-30s. I can’t imagine any team offering much more than $8 million a year for more than two or three years (probably some sort of option stipulating the third year). Given that this will be a big year for free agent center fielders, Cameron will be the cheapest, solid veteran option out there.

By Savannah Guy

October 10, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this

Hot Stove Music Picks (Albums where every song on the CD is great)

David Gray (White Ladder) Anytime…great…

Best of the Animals (Eric Burdon used to rule)

Coldplay (A rush of blood to the head)

Thicker Than Water (music from a film by Jack Johnson and the Malloys - multiple artists)

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this

Robert (Justice Is The Best), who had the higher OBP? That is more important than average because it takes into account more. And you need some power to play center field everyday in the big leagues for a contender. A some power equals production needed to hit in the big leagues.

I’m not opposed the the Braves going after Crisp but I don’t want them to trade away quality players for just him when they have other options.

But I’d be fine with Winn and Crisp if they come along in a package for pitching.

Lew, have you looked at Rowand’s numbers? Fine player but I’ll bet he’ll sign a huge deal that that team will regret within a couple of seasons. His career stats: .286/.343/.462. That’s a couple of years in an extreme hitter’s park and the rest of the time in a decent hitter’s park. He just turned 30. Again, fine player no doubt, but he’ll command and get a deal unworthy of the production he’ll provide.

DAP, with the money free agent center fielders will get, Cameron is the best veteran option out there that the Braves wouldn’t have to also give up players for.

There are a ton of factors in play here. It’s not just about the player’s ability or even their contract. Braves seem to want and need a veteran guy who is likely to be solid both offensively and defensively and who will be relatively cheap and command only 2-3 years at most. Winn or Cameron seem like the best options but Winn is going to force the Braves to give up quality players in addition to salary because he’s under contract. I think they would only get Winn if he comes in a package along with a pitcher or two.

By KTG

October 10, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

Kind of off subject, and I’m new here, but it seems like I wasn’t the only one annoyed with Chip Caray by the end of the season. Or in the playoffs…

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/sports/baseball/09sandomir.html?_r=3&ref=sports&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

It’s funny how one season can change your perspective. At the beginning of the season, I loved TBS and Chip & Skip calling the games much better than the Foxsports guys (previous year being that old dude who seemed angry and the annoying Hawks announcer) but by the end of this season, I couldn’t stand hearing Chip because he’s so loud and overlaughs at everything; and often wrong about his stats. Long live Boog & Joe!

By Gil in Mechanicsville

October 10, 2007 10:45 AM | Link to this

Yep, appears to be a seller’s market out there doesn’t it? I have found it very easy to spend someone else’s money. It is great to make for some speculation about next year’s roster but realistically, none of us have the resources know who is available, who is the next Matt Holliday or Grady Sizemore.

The Braves spend millions of dollars to develop players and scout for future stars. Don’t you think that every game being played gives the staffs of both teams the opportunity to evaluate all the talent on the field?

The one thing MLB did to hamstring the Nationals was cut their minor league program to the bone. Something that will cost them for years in the future. Wake up and smell the coffee folks, building from within is still the best way to become a winner. But to do so you have to have the financial commitment to support long term vision, not short term profits on a spreadsheet.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

KTG, Boog is awesome. One of my favorite broadcasters I’ve ever heard. He seems to know the game more than 90 percent of the broadcasters out there.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this

Gil in Mechanicsville, I don’t know if building from within is necessarily the “best way” and I don’t think there is a “best way.” There is no magic formula. You almost certainly need cheap players that provide more production on the dollar than lots of other players, unless you’re the Yankees.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 10, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this

DAP, you are 100% correct. I think $7 or $8 or $9 mil could be much better spent than on Mike Cameron. If he could be had for $3 or $4 mil, then I would say take the chance on him and perhaps platoon him with Blanco. But, I just don’t see how this guy is worth $8 mil a year for the next two years when his production will be slightly better than Andruw’s this year….if even that. I would rather platoon Blanco with a cheap option CF option than to spend that much money on a guy whose numbers have steadily declined over the last three or so years. Honestly, if Scott Podsednik didn’t have such a bad arm I would say he would be the perfect CF option but I don’t think I trust him out there.

This is the type of situtation where guys like Milton Bradley and Elijah Dukes would be perfect. But, they both are such hotheads that you take a chance on upsetting clubhouse chemistry such as it is. I think Dukes has star written all over him and Bobby Cox could calm him down. That is one of Bobby’s strenghts and that is keeping in check volatile players. Did Sheff ever erupt while here? Never heard any crap out of Deion? Would it be worth the risk to sign a Bradley or trade for Dukes? I really don’t know.

By KC

October 10, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this

KTG: I’m in agreement with you on Chip Caray. I have always loved listening to his dad, but can’t stand Chips announcing.

I don’t know if this makes any sense, but he’s TOO announcer-like. He sounds like he’s trying too hard. He’s always using phrases and cliches in an attempt to sound clever, but it doesn’t work for him.

Skip has always been so good because he’s just himself on the air. I’ve always had the feeling that Skip on the air is pretty much the same Skip you’d get off the air.

Boog is great. To be honest, I didn’t want to like him because I was upset that they didn’t just use existing Braves announcers. I didn’t like it that they brought in an outsider. But truth to be told… Boog is very good at what he does. He’s a likable guy that doesn’t lay it on too thick when he’s calling a game (like Chip does), and he blends quite will with Joe Simpson.

I agree… Boog and Joe is much better than Chip-plus-anybody.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

Robert (Justice Is The Best), are you serious about Podsednik? He hit .243/.299/.369. Downright embarrassing.

Also, Blanco has never played in the bigs and has zero power. Not saying he wouldn’t be a decent option one day or that he’d be awful but I’m sure the Braves want at least decent production and prefer experience.

By Lew

October 10, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

Uh Shaun-Did you actually read what I said? I advocated filling the Center Field hole from within the organization. If we were to spend any kind of multi millions on a new CF, yes, I would prefer Rowand. However, like I said, If the reason we will not sign Rowand is because of the money he will command and we have someone of our own on the horizon, then why should we spend anything? Cameron will not be that much cheaper than Rowand (couple mil), so why pay for him either? Come to think of it, Cameron isn’t worthwhile over one of our own guys, even if he would sign for $3 or 4 mil a year, which will never happen.

Put Kelly Johnson out there. Put Escobar out there. Put Lillibridge out there. Put Francoeur in center and KJ in right. Put Blanco out there. Put a deal together that will get us pitching and a CF option. Any of those are better options than Mike Cameron. Cheaper, too and they allow for an orderly transfer to Scaeffer-if and when he is ready. Cameron is CERTAINLY NOT WORTH $7-8 million per year. If you actually think he is, you need serious psychological counseling. That kind of money would be much better spent on pitching.

By KC

October 10, 2007 11:14 AM | Link to this

Lew: What about Carl Crawford for CF? =)

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 10, 2007 11:16 AM | Link to this

Shaun, you are right about OBP. Average alone doesn’t get it done unless someone is hitting .350. However, I respectively disagree with you about centerfielders having to hit for power on a contender. Look at Crisp, Taveras, Cabrerra, and Jacque Jones and Sizemore to some degree. Also, in principle I agree with you but this team really doesn’t need more power. They need speed. They need somebody who can steal some bases. They need somebody who can get from first to home on a line drive in the gap. Crisp would bring that. Now, I agree with you that the Braves should not give up a lot to get him. I think the discussion on Crisp is kind of moot though because the Braves don’t have anything the Red Sox need.

By Thrillhouse44

October 10, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this

I know that Robert is infinitely smarter than the manager, so I’m curious as to who he thinks should play centerfield. Robert, care to contribute?

By David O'Brien

October 10, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this

Hillbilly, I’ll give Robison a listen, for sure. Always open to suggestions of the musical kind, long as they don’t involve ’70s prog rock, pop disguised as country, or hair metal.

Kings of Leon are only going to get bigger. Saw them three years ago in San Francisco at the Fillmore, and they had a few thousand hardcore fans there singing along to all their lyrics.

But last night at the Fox, it was 5,000 or whatever the place holds, just taken for a powerful, tight ride by a band that’s gotten better and better instead of lazy and full of itself after an initial dose of success (see Strokes, the band that could’ve been what Kings of Leon has become).

By Amber

October 10, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

The idea of Andruw playing for the Mets or Phillies makes me sick to my stomach. I don’t want him back, but it would seem like the ultimate slap in the face.

DOB, if I ever run into you at the Ted, the first words I’ll say will be, “I washed my hands!”

By Jeffrey

October 10, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this

Anyone have any thoughts on the Buster Olney report at ESPN that the Reds might be ready to approach the Braves about a deal for Ken Griffey Jr?

The Reds have too many outfielders and want to dump Griffey’s contract so badly that they are apparently offering to pay a portion of his contract if the Braves take him. The Reds are said to want a couple of prospects in return.

If this be true, perhaps a larger deal could also involve Bronson Arroyo joining our pitching staff. If Junior came to Atlanta, he would play right and Francoeur would move to center.

By Ron Roberts

October 10, 2007 11:30 AM | Link to this

DO’B… Your disagreeing with me doesn’t tick me off. Same with Shaun, KC, et al, when we have spirited discussions from opposite ends of an argument with regards to the Braves or baseball in general. That’s not what aggravated me, dude. Water under the bridge. Moving on. Next topic… :)

By flange1

October 10, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this

Morning All,

Lew, I think you are right on this one. We do have options for CF from Blanco to KJ to Lillibridge to Frenchy. I agree that money would be better spent on pitching and/or signing Tex.

Shaun keeps talking about production from CF and the need for power. GENERALLY, I agree. But the Braves have had a CF in Otis Nixon that had very little power and a SS in Belliard that had no power and did not hit for an average and both sets of teams did very well.

We are not the Yankees, we can’t afford to have an all star at every position.

The Braves team next year will have production at every position excluding CF. Why not let Blanco play great defense in CF, and if he hits .220 with 0 HR, OK! Let him hit 8th. Or if we want to use LaRussa starategy, let him hit 9th.

I am all for trading for a pitcher. I would hate to trade Edgar, Yunel or KJ to get one. But sometimes you do what you have to do.

If we could get Haren for Chuckie, B Jones and a lower prospect, I say do it. Let KJ play left, Edgar short, Yunel 2nd.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 10, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

Shaun, I should have qualified my statements. I would take Posednik as part of a platoon but I also said that I would take him but since his arm is so bad he would not do well in centerfield. Now, I could ask you if you are serious about paying $8 mil to Cameron. His numbers this year were okay at best and they aren’t likely to get better next season.

As for Blanco, I just don’t get this whole “he doesn’t have experience” argument. How the hell is he supposed to get experience if he is never given the chance to play. Did Andruw have “experience” when he got the centerfield job? Did Kelly Johnson have 2B experience when he got the job? Did Troy Tuluowitzki (sp?) have big league experience when he was named the SS of the Rockies? I know where the logic for that argument comes but sometimes you have to take the chance.

By DAP

October 10, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this

shaun the braves also wont have to give up anything to bring blanco up from richmond, and would spend over $7.5mil less on him.

im just not sure if i see the need to spend money on a CF this year…i think blanco is as ready as he will ever be.

and what will do the team more good, cameron or another starting pitcher? i dont think we can get a pitcher for 8mil, but we could use the money we DONT spend on cameron to go towards signing a pitcher.

i like the idea of winn much better, since, as you mentioned, probably means we got a pitcher in the deal as well.

By Music Critic & Hygienist

October 10, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

Maybe those kids from Auburn can add another 15 minutes to their fame by adding a verse to the Teixeira song about how he always washes his hands.

By Buffalo NY Braves fan

October 10, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

Robert(JIB)

I completely agree with you. There is no way any minor leaguer is going to get experience in the big leagues, until they actually play. Did McCann and Francoeur have experience before they came up a couple years ago?

Let the kids in the system play in spring training, maybe pick up a CF option cheap that could be used to pinch hit if he doesn’t win the job. Maybe someone like Cory Sullivan?

By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)

October 10, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this

I have to agree about Gregor Blanco. When AJ sat out the last three games and Willie Harris was out there taking up space , I kept thinking , the Braves had already used up an option on Blanco in 2007 and he could have at least been afforded the opportunity to get his feet wet in the big leagues.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

Robert (Justice Is The Best), All of those players you listed hit very well in the minors. Blanco has shown virtually no power. And while he has good speed it’s not ridiculously good like Otis Nixon, who could get away with no power because basically every time he reached base there was a good chance he’d get two bases. Blanco played more games than anyone at Richmond yet stole the third-most bases and was only successful at a 56-percent rate. He slugged .362.

I don’t think it’s just the experience factor (heck, that’s not even the major factor). He just doesn’t quite have the overall ability for an everyday job just yet.

By flange1

October 10, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

Hey Gil,

You have seen Blanco play, do you think he is ready to play in the ML? Very interested in your thoughts on this one!

Thanks

By DAP

October 10, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

shaun i think blanco is as ready as he will ever be, and he needs to at least get a chance.

tradtitional power positions are corner infied and corner outfield. traditionally, not much offense comes from guys up the middle. weve got amazing production from our corner infield guys, great production from right field, left field is decent. weve also got production coming from non-traditional places like catcher, 2nd base and SS. we do not need a center fielder that is an offensive force. (meaning, a guy with power)

i think blanco could be just what the doctor ordered for the braves. hes fast, hes a great outfielder, and hes a line-drive hitter. bat him 8th in the braves lineup and i think he will actually score alot of runs in ‘08.

i dont even think we should platoon him. i think he should tryout for the full time job in spring training. like i said, i think hes as ready as he will ever be.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 10, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this

I’ll say this. If the Braves can get Griffey and not have to give away the farm, I would be all for it. He is old like Cameron but the difference is he still producing at a very productive clip. He would be a good stop gap until Schaefer is ready. I don’t think he would have to play RF. I think he could still play CF. The problem is who would the Braves have to give up? I’m sure Reyes would be one of the players but I would only do that if Arroyo came along or if the Reds ate enough of Griffey’s contract (which really isn’t that much in grand scope of things) so the Braves could sign a middle of the rotation starter along with Glavine. The Reds could use Renteria. Don’t tell me they have Felipe Lopez. Please! Reyes, Renteria, Devine, and Smith or Acosta for Griffey and Arroyo would be a good deal. Now, would the Reds make it? I don’t know.

By flange1

October 10, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this

Coach,

For once, I agree with you on bringing up and playing Blanco!!

By David O'Brien

October 10, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

DAP, the Braves also think Blanco is as ready as he’ll ever be.

Problem (for Blanco) is that I don’t think they believe that’s good enough. Not to man CF every day for a championship team, which is what they aspire to be next season.

I could be wrong, but that’s the distinct impression I get when I ask Braves people about him. “He is what he is,” is the common refrain.

By David O'Brien

October 10, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this

Flange1, I probably don’t need to remind you, Otis Nixon and Belliard played in a very different era than the current one. You could get away with having all-glove or mostly glove guys at two or three positions. Not anymore….

Music Critis and Hygenist, if it’ll make you feel better, we could remove that little blurb from The Week that I posted above. It obviously struck a nerve with you and a couple others here. But you know, it’s your secret if you don’t want to wash hands after using the bathroom. Nobody else needs to know. Just pretend we never brought it up, OK? There. Never mentioned.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

DAP and all who have a problem paying Cameron around $8 million a year, take a look at Gary Matthews’s contract with the Angels.

Five years, $50 million.

Now compare his career numbers to Cameron’s:

Matthews - .261/.334/.419

Cameron - .251/.341/.445

This season:

Matthews - .252/.323/.419

Cameron - .242/.328/.431

Cameron put up better numbers even though he was less expensive and played roughly half his games in a less favorable park.

Cameron is two years older but he’s more talented than Matthews who is getting $10 million a year.

Hopefully this will give you some idea of where the market is for center fielders. $8 million doesn’t seem inappropriate.

By Lew

October 10, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this

I don’t know if Blanco is the answer or not. I do know that Mike Cameron IS NOT. Neither is Cory Patterson. To even suggest Patterson is complete and utter insanity-unless he was a throw in with a good pitcher.

By DAP

October 10, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

as far as the announcers go, i love joe and boog and tv. boog is great on tv, however, boog is not so good on radio. chip is good on radio, but not on tv. so i think boog on tv=great, boog on radio=bad chip on tv=bad chip on radio=good. honestly, chip makes the game come alive on the radio in a way ive never heard before. and when i watch a game with joe and boog, i feel like im with a couple of friends watching the game.

By Music Critic & Hygienist

October 10, 2007 12:21 PM | Link to this

Never mentioned.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

DAP, see my above post about Blanco. I’m not sure he has enough speed and/or power to ever be a really good everyday center fielder in the big leagues.

He slugged under .400 at Triple-A, and didn’t steal an immense number of bases and his success rate wasn’t all that impressive.

He’s only slugged higher than .400 once.

I’m skeptical about Blanco. I see him as a solid fourth outfielder/pinch-runner.

By Thrillhouse44

October 10, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this

Didn’t we all complain about about having a .220 hitter in CF last year? I think a lot of us said something like “well if we had gotten more productivity out of CF…”. Well, why would you want to replace AJ with Blanco? Cameron may not be the best, but I think he would produce more than Blanco. I don’t think Cameron is the best answer, but I certainly don’t think the Braves should sacrifice CF productivity to save a few bucks.

By Braveheart

October 10, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this

The Braves finally scrubbed off their Langerhans this year. They scrubbed him off real good. Some say too late. He shook too many hands in April. Maybe he did not want to hit because he did want to spread bad langerhans germs through his bat to the ball to the fielders? Maybe he shook Andruw’s hand one too many times and spread the scrubby hitting germ to Andruw. Billy Beane evidently believes in scrubbing off his langerhans as fast as he can.

Let’s tick off DOB and ask who the player to be named later in that trade was for the millionth time.

Shall we refer to the player to be named later from now on as the langerhans sanitizer?

Will DOB carry the langerhans sanitizer in his laptop case as well?

By Braveheart

October 10, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

Take two leadoff hitters. both leadoff hitters have 700 plate appearances. each has a .400 OBP and a .500 SLG. Hitter A hits .300 and Hitter B hits .250.

Hitter A: .300, .400, .500. 700 plate appearances, 600 at bats, 180 hits, 100 walks, 280 times on base, 300 total bases, 40 doubles, 10 triples, 20 homers.

Hitter B: .250, .400, .500. 700 plate appearances, 560 at bats, 140 hits, 140 walks, 280 times on base, 280 total bases, 20 doubles, 10 triples, 20 homers.

Assume neither gets any HBPs or SBs and never get caught stealing.

Which would you rather have?

By David O'Brien

October 10, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this

Only now did I see the chatter about Griffey Jr that some of you had yesterday afternoon.

Hey, I like Griffey, and he was a great story this year, having a 30-homer, 149-game season when it looked like he wasn’t capable of playing more than 120 games anymore.

But really, especially some of you folks who hammer Chipper about his inability to stay healthy, do you understand how many more injuries and how many more games Griffey has missed than Chipper? I mean, it’s not even remotely close.

Before playing 149 games this season, Griffey had played more than 111 games just ONCE in the past six seasons. Think about that.

Here’s his season games and RBIs from 2001 to 2006:

2001: 111 games, 65 RBIs

2002: 70 games, 23 RBIs

2003: 53 games, 26 RBIs

2004: 83 games, 60 RBIs

2005: 128 games, 92 RBIs

2006: 109 games, 72 RBIs

And that’s the guy you want to give up prospects for, and then have him replace the most durable CF in baseball over the past decade?

Uh, I’m not seeing that. Have him and Chipper in the lineup together? At least we’d have easy notebooks most days, with the medical updates and expected date of returns, etc.

By Music Critic

October 10, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

How can “The Boss” find time to do a show with Steven Van Zandt(tonight on VH1)when he is so busy figuring out when and how he is going to fire Torre?

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

Thrillhouse44, well said. I tend to agree Cameron probably isn’t quite worth what he’ll get in the strictest sense of the word ‘worth.’ But he’ll provide above average production when most veterans providing at least as much production will be making much more.

Lew, I don’t think I’d want to use a roster spot up for Patterson. Well, maybe as a fourth outfielder/pinch-runner but I’d avoid giving him a regular job at all cost.

By Lew

October 10, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this

Shaun-All that Mathews, Jr. reference does, is indicate that he’s even more overpaid than Cameron will be. Neither one is worth the kind of money they received or will receive.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

Braveheart, probably the first one because of better Isolated Power (SLG-AVG, slugging minus singles). That indicates more power and power is the best weapon to have offensively. Although either player would be fine with me. I wouldn’t complain about either.

By "Coach"

October 10, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

Braveheart, how many options do players A & B have?

By HW

October 10, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

Braves trade Chipper to the NYY for 3 minor league pitchers. Braves resign Glavine and sign Texeria to Long term deal. Braves sign Tori Hunter from Twins.

Starting OF next year is Francouer RF Tori Hunter CF Matt Diaz LF

By Lew

October 10, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

Shaun-Again, I don’t think you read what I said. I said that anyone contemplating acquiring Patterson is insane. The ONLY way I would have him is if he was a throw in in a deal for a good pitcher. A real cheap throw in-one that could be used as a bench player and even then I would have my doubts. Again-I advocate filling the position from within the organization.

Just so I’m real clear here and you know exactly what I’m talking about. I think Cameron is a mistake. I think Patterson is a mistake. I would not want either one to fill the spot vacated by Andruw. We have options that are as good and much cheaper than Cameron, Patterson, Mathews, Jr. or any other reject you care to mention. Again-Why spend money on an expensive has been or never really was, when we have internal options? Go get pitching!!!!!!

By HW

October 10, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

Braves trade Chipper to the NYY for 3 minor league pitchers. Braves resign Glavine and sign Texeria to Long term deal. Braves sign Tori Hunter from Twins.

Starting OF next year is Francouer RF Tori Hunter CF Matt Diaz LF

By Arkansas Hillbilly

October 10, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

I’ll ask this question out of pure ignorance, because I truly haven’t seen enough of him lately to make my own judgement, but is Griffey past the point of being able to play centerfield? I’m not saying we should or shouldn’t get him, by any means whatsoever, but if it happened, would he not be a better option at center than moving Francouer over?

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 10, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

Shaun, you just made my point about Cameron. If some scrub like Matthews Jr. can get $10 mil a year, you don’t think Cameron can’t get as much. You really thik he is worth that kind of money?

By Savannah Guy

October 10, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

DOBtoberfest is officially in full swing

No matter the occupation or the choice of beer, food or music…whether a scribe, journalist, statistician, sideline comic, ventmeister or random Braves fan scribbler…it’s all there…here.

So Come One Come All to the Big Fat Braves Blog Stew brought to you by the one and only esteemed, notorious and decent hitman MIB forum and throw in on Braves hotstove, playoff action, music, concert reviews, BBQ and all sorts of sammiches, art, film, toes and hammock bones, poetry, peaches, canned hams, spring training brevity master class signups, announcer critiques, urine analysis, hand washing etiquette, hard balls, fastballs, knuckle balls, chin music and latenight barroom brawls. Have I left anything out?

So many subjects…

Something for everyone. I live for this!

By DAP

October 10, 2007 12:46 PM | Link to this

shaun i understand the market, but i dont understand your argument in this duscussion. i dont want gary matthews jr. either.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

Lew, true. But it also indicates what the Braves will have to overspend to get a solid center fielder. And better to overspend slightly for two years than overspend bigger for four or five years.

The way I see it the Braves choices are: They can go cheap and bring up a center fielder that will probably only provide fringe-level production or they can overspend a little to get decent production or they can overspend a lot and get decent to pretty good production for maybe a few years then regret the contract later.

By Mr. Fly (Sleuth Reporter)

October 10, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this

The nerve…forgetting Mr. Fly’s reports in DOBtoberfest. Sheesh. Probably just forgot…

By Shawn

October 10, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

Braveheart: In answering your queerie, the angle of the dangle is = the heat of the meat, but this is only true in a torrid zone. Now, if one of these players did it in Petco, for instance, then…

By TennesseePaul

October 10, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

I have no idea what he’ll command. He only made $7 million this season and he’s in his mid-30s. [He’ll be 35 at the start of next season] I can’t imagine any team offering much more than $8 million a year for more than two or three years.
So at 35, Cameron is worth 8 million because you can’t see him declining in a 2 to 3 year deal…

He just turned 30. Again, fine player no doubt, but he’ll command and get a deal unworthy of the production he’ll provide.
So at 30, 5 years younger, Rowand is not worth 2 extra million because he will not provide good production in the 2nd or 3rd year of his deal.

Some recent articles from national papers:
Rowand made $4.35 million this year. He’s expected to command at least what Arizona gave outfielder Eric Byrnes during the season: $30 million for 3 years.
—Philadelphia Daily News
Rowand means more to this team than his numbers, and his numbers this year were terrific.
—Philadelphia Inquirer
Some of us like the younger, lesser-appreciated, hence-hungrier Rowand. Mike Cameron of San Diego? Uh, no.
—Fort Worth Star-Telegram

Now, suppose for an instant that Cameron’s 2007 season actually held a candle to Rowand’s season, we are supposed to believe you when you say a 35 year old is going to provide more bang for the buck than a 30 year old, given the following careers numbers:

Career Production
Player     G   R    H  2B 3B  HR  BB   SO  AVG  OBP  SLG
Rowand   849 419  761 166 12  93 161  505 .286 .343 .462
Cameron 1560 866 1366 305 54 216 696 1500 .251 .341 .445

Career Home splits
Player     G   R    H  2B 3B  HR  BB   SO  AVG  OBP  SLG
Rowand   436 221  381  79  6  56  85  248 .283 .343 .475
Cameron  788 424  710 146 29  96 357  746 .243 .336 .426

Career Away splits
Player     G   R    H  2B 3B  HR  BB   SO  AVG  OBP  SLG
Rowand   413 198  380  87  6  37  76  257 .289 .343 .448
Cameron  772 442  710 159 25 120 339  754 .258 .345 .464 

2 million dollar difference in annual salary and 5 year difference in age.
Another way of looking at it is to view Cameron’s annual averages of mediocrity compared to AJ’s walk season, since this is what we are to replace…

Player     G   R    H  2B 3B  HR  BB   SO  AVG  OBP  SLG
Cameron  120  67  105  23  4  16  53  115 .251 .341 .445
Andruw   154  83  127  27  2  26  70  138 .222 .311 .413

So for 8 million a season, a 35 year old mediocre player in decline will provide about a 3% improvement over Andruw Jones this past season and this is the solution to CF… Methinks not. Suffice it to say, you have failed to convinced me that Cameron is a good option, or a cheap option.

Perhaps Rowand isn’t the answer. Fine with me. But so far I’ve seen many more desirable options than Cameron… except maybe Paterson, not to impressed with him either.
We have a chance to improve the numbers in CF from this past season, we might as well take advantage of it… But first and foremost, I’d rather all the pitching be taken care of.

By DAP

October 10, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

shaun so do you think cameron is over 20 times better than blanco would be? i think the only difference would be blanco wouldnt hit any homeruns.

thrillhouse if andruw had hit .220 in the 8th spot and we had tex at cleanup all year, than it wouldnt have as big of a deal. i dont think blanco should bat cleanup.

here’s my point guys, i just dont think cameron is worth that much money. im not sold on having blanco in there, although id like to see him get a chance…i just dont think we should spend 8mil on a CF next year.

By DAP

October 10, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

about griffey, i dont think its any coincidence that he was mostly injury free this year while playing right field. he can still play CF, but will be much more likley to get hurt. if the braves were to get him, id play him in right and move frenchy to center, or, since i dont really think frenchy should play center, put griffey in LF, frenchy in RF, and still go get a CF.

By Savannah Guy

October 10, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this

Music pick of this particular hour:

The Shins (Wincing the Night Away).

Blog Chart Development/Readability Award:

Tennessee Paul Very nicely done (good posts too)

By Braveheart

October 10, 2007 1:17 PM | Link to this

DAP, I agree that Boog is great on television. I love listening to that guy. He is very knowledgeable and even when he is not, he is very intellectually curious about baseball matters and likes to have discussions. Listening to him is like reading this blog (when we all are behaving and talking the game). Has anyone else noticed that he does seem to read this blog alot?

I noticed late in the season that in almost every game he discusses and references things we all chat incessantly about while he is doing the game. He’ll even use phrases we use on the blog. It could be a coincidence. Maybe we are the ones using his thoughts and phrases and discussions to further our discussions?

Do you remember the angst word coming out in one game after scoots and jjs had a hilarious back and forth the day before about angst on here? There’s lot of little things like that. Just listening to him, I think he uses us amongst many other things he uses to get a feel for the heart and heads of the braves fans. Because of him, I think we are better off because he furthers our discussions in an intelligent and mature manner like DOB does. I put a stat up here one time and they used it in the next game. I said something about Howard Johnson having Popeye forearms one time and he said that about Uggla the next day. Just little things like that may be coincidental but maybe not. We all got into a big Chuck James blowout one time about pitcher’s mechanics, arm slots, pitch selections. He seemed to make a real effort for the rest of the season to make that a discussion of every broadcast for almost every pitcher in the game as a way of furthering our discussion and educating us. Very cool stuff.

Some people on here seem to like to keep score on themselves and each other but most don’t. After a while you forget who said what and when they said it unless they beat the darn issue to death and you resented them for it even if you agreed with them.

But I think with DOB, Carroll, Boog, Skip, Pete, Joe, Chip, and this blog we become a collective conscience and heart of the Braves. You don’t know who said what or who is paying homage to the other’s thoughts. And you shouldn’t care. Like the Wu, we all ending up forming like Voltron in this bloggin’ Braves universe. The whole bigger and better than the individual.

Maybe next year we’ll have to play a Boog game and come up with code words everyday for Boog to find a way to incorporate into every telecast he does.

This Florida Marlins connection is working very well for us. First DOB and then Boog. DOB, we got any other promising reporters or announcers down there we need to call up?

I’ve never heard Boog on the radio so I can’t comment on that. But I agree with you on Chip on radio vs. television for the most part. Chip is much more entertaining on the radio because he is just more normal and is basically himself on the radio. Not as much cheese.

By DAP

October 10, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this

shaun your 12:49 is making sense to me. the braves have a choice to make. i just feel like if they overspend, it should be on pitching.

By fastasballs

October 10, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this

If Cameron is in the mix at 7-8M, why would it not be smarter to go after Rowand, sign him to the 5 year 10M a year deal & trade him in a year or two? Especially if you can back load the deal, the Braves may only need to pay 7-8M the first few years, which would be the same as signing Cameron for two years 7-8M per. Any thoughts?

If they can’t get a deal done with Tex Rowand could be kept & would be quite a bargain in the future. Always could move him to left to make room for Schaefer when he’s ready.

I really don’t think the market is going to decline so much in a year or two that the Braves could not move Rowand & his contract if they wanted to & would get something in return as well.

I don’t think Blanco can provide the offense needed, not that Andruw’s power #’s has to be duplicated now that Tex is here, but speed, high OBP & average will be needed if the power is not there.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul, very good analysis on Rowand. Problem is he’ll likely want at least a four- or five-, maybe a six-year deal. Doesn’t leave you much flexibility.

Also, once again you are forgetting ballparks. Rowand played his home games the past two seasons in perhaps the best hitter’s park in the game and before that played his home games in a decent park for hitters.

I agree, Rowand is a fine player quite possibly better than Cameron. But he’s not worth what he’ll command, mostly because of the years.

DAP, it’s not a question of whether Cameron is 20 times better than Blanco; that’s not the issue. It’s a question of whether Blanco can be an everyday center fielder. And as DOB says, the Braves don’t seem to think he can and the stats don’t seem to indicate he can. Yes, the Braves or some other team will likely overpay for Cameron but better to overpay a little than to run a player out there who should be in Triple-A or on the bench. And it’s not just homeruns. Blanco clearly doesn’t hit the ball hard often enough. Look at his overall SLG and his doubles totals; not very impressive.

Cameron’s probably 20 times better than me and I’d take 20 times less to play but that doesn’t mean the Braves should sign me.

By Julia

October 10, 2007 1:25 PM | Link to this

Well, are we on for the SHRIMP PO’ BOY SAMMICHES or not? And maybe some G-O-O-F-Y G-O-L-F afterward? How about a tour of the studio? I’ve never been in a dinosaur’s neck before. Can’t have much POOCH if it’s a tight place or you’ll never be able to get in there. Technical difficulty.

Makes me C-R-A-Z-Y!!

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul, $2 million difference in salary (maybe) and a 5-year age difference but also a 3-4-year contract length difference which is probably more important than the money.

Plus, look at the away splits: .464-.448 SLG. That’s pretty significant.

By Braveheart

October 10, 2007 1:27 PM | Link to this

Braveheart, probably the first one because of better Isolated Power (SLG-AVG, slugging minus singles). That indicates more power and power is the best weapon to have offensively. Although either player would be fine with me. I wouldn’t complain about either.

Hitter A: .300, .400, .500. 700 plate appearances, 600 at bats, 180 hits, 100 walks, 280 times on base, 300 total bases, 40 doubles, 10 triples, 20 homers.

Hitter B: .250, .400, .500. 700 plate appearances, 560 at bats, 140 hits, 140 walks, 280 times on base, 280 total bases, 20 doubles, 10 triples, 20 homers.

Which would you rather have?

Assuming ballparks and lineups equal, Hitter A looks better because of his batting average. But Hitter B should actually be expected to score about 6 more runs per 162 than Hitter A despite his lower batting average and equal OBP & SLG.

Based upon NL averages this decade, Hitter A would be expected to finish with 116 runs scored with his .300, .400, .500 and his 300 total bases added to his 100 walks.

Hitter B would be expected to finish with 122 runs with his .250, .400, .500 and his 280 total bases added to his 140 walks.

Adding the total bases and walks would give you a 400 figure for Hitter A and a 420 figure for Hitter B. Take the 400 and multiply it by .29 and you get 116 expected runs for Hitter A. Take the 420 and multiply it by .29 and you get 122 expected runs for Hitter B.

This is based upon the average for NL leadoff hitters this decade. The average NL leadoff hitter this decade has 106 runs scored, 274 total bases, 61 walks, 8 hbps, 29 SBs, 11 CS, 61 RBIs, 3.9 SFs. Some rounding up was done.

Add the total bases, walks, hbps, sbs and subtract the caught stealings. you get 361 for the average NL leadoff man this decade. take the 105.75 avg runs scored and divide it by that 360.875 and you get .29 as the multiplier for the average leadoff man this decade in determining expected runs once you add all those counting numbers up.

Very imperfect statistical analysis but I like it for my purposes.

By Steamboat

October 10, 2007 1:27 PM | Link to this

I like the idea of manning CF from within a lot. I’ve said before, I believe KJ could play it; and I suspect Lillibridge could too (and, he’d be a true leadoff type).

Escobar probably could, but it’s really a shame to think of him moving from the infield (and very unlikely, I would guess). I’m suspect of Blanco’s bat, but not opposed to him if he can carry the load.

If we did that (any of the above), we could justify keeping Edgar, who is a bargain at $6.3 mil, and a better bat than any of the free agent CF’s being discussed. (or we could still trade Edgar - for PITCHING! - but I’d rather not).

But, put (say, KJ) in CF, keep Edgar at SS, play Escobar at 2B - KJ may not be a gold glover, but he HAS played outfield (quite well), has good speed, good instincts, and a strong arm.

The offense would be absolutely unstoppable.

Obviously, I don’t KNOW if any of these guys is a viable option. I’m sure the Braves’ brass will consider all options. If any one of them is capable, there is a huge advantage to going in that direction, both in terms of payroll and offensive production.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

fastasballs, in a 2-3 years who is going to give up quality players for an overpaid player in the decline phase of his career? That’s why it wouldn’t be smart to give Rowand a five-year, $10 million a year deal.

By TennesseePaul

October 10, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

Thanks Savannah Guy.

By flange1

October 10, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

DOB,

I totally agree that the eras of Belliard and Nixon are different from today. I really was indicating that for the amount of money the Braves will have to spend next year that we can’t have all stars at every position and that you sometimes have to choose between offense and defense.

My choice would be defense for CF. We have offense at every other position and I would rather spend money on pitching than to waste it on a CF that played OK offense and OK defense.

Not trying to argue, just do a better job of explaining my point.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this

DAP, yeah, that’s just great. Braves should overspend on pitching and put a Triple-A/backup player in center field everyday.

By DAP

October 10, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this

i found some old phil keaggy in the station today, and im playing it in the background. not often i actually enjoy music thats older than me.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this

Braveheart, not sure how you can determine expected runs scored. Hitter A is going to be in scoring position 20 more times. If they’re in the same lineup and everything, I’m not sure how he wouldn’t be expected to score more runs than the other guy with the same OBP, same plate appearances but A has more times in scoring position.

By ncscoots

October 10, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this

Maybe next year we’ll have to play a Boog game and come up with code words everyday for Boog to find a way to incorporate into every telecast he does.

The Boog game. I like it, sign me up. Boogin’ and bloggin’…certainly a candidate for new, hip phrase of the century, meaning…well, I don’t KNOW what it would mean, but I like the trippingly-off-the-tongue-edness of it.

The Boog (game) abides.

By TennesseePaul

October 10, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this

Payne: Plus, look at the away splits: .464-.448 SLG. That’s pretty significant.

Fine… the difference is 16 points.
Look at the career numbers (larger sample size mind you) .462/.445 SLG. Difference: 17 points… in favor of Rowand.

Look at age… 5 years. Look at age at the end of the contract:
Reported estimated contract size 3years (source sited above): Rowands age at end of contract 33, cost 10 million.
Assumed Blog contract 5 years: Rowand’s age at end of contract, 35 at 10 million.
Suggested Blog contract of Cameron, 3 years. Cameron’s age at end of contract 38, cost 8 million.

Well done Payne. Now I’m even less sold on the Cameron idea.

By TennesseePaul

October 10, 2007 1:55 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure how he wouldn’t be expected to score more runs than the other guy

I think that would be because Cameron was batting behind him and striking out instead of knocking him in.

By fastasballs

October 10, 2007 1:57 PM | Link to this

Shaun, It really wouldn’t matter if the Braves got anything in return if they traded him in 1-2 years, not 3-4. He just turned 30, so in a year or two his value will still be there if he continues to have good #’s. If they just dumped his contract in a year or two there would be plenty of takers. There’s always teams with money to burn in the race who needs a player like him.

He’s a better option than Cameron if the pay would basically be the same if the Braves worked Rowand a back loaded contract & paid him 7-8M for the first two years. Cameron is already in his career decline & isn’t worth that much money. If they did sign him, he’d be gone in two years anyway & the Braves would non tender him, thus not gain any draft picks. All things being equal I take Rowand over Cameron.

By Mr. Fly (Sleuth Reporter)

October 10, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

we got any other promising reporters or announcers down there we need to call up?

Wellsirree, yours truly will be buzzing around Miami soon to drop in on Andruw. First though, have some cute little orange blossoms to attend to. So many Florida flygirls to see. Wonder if Boog will quote this reporter? Could be dangerous…may need translating.

By Jared

October 10, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

Braves should overspend on pitching and put a Triple-A/backup player in center field everyday.

That’s exactly what the Braves should do. Go for the pitching that means. Pitching is what wins. The Braves have a great offense, I think third in runs scored in the NL in 2007. Second in 2006. The offense is not the problem.

Schuerholz went “all-in” on the bullpen last offseason and it worked. The Braves’ bullpen had the lowest ERA in the NL in 2007. Schuerholz should go “all-in” on starting pitcher, hopefully it will work.

The Braves have a great offense regardless of who plays CF.

By ColoradoBravesFan

October 10, 2007 2:05 PM | Link to this

Braveheart… I disagree. If OBP and SLG% are the same i would think you want Player A. He has got 40 more hits. maybe at least one or two of those hits come in late and crucil situations to drive in runners from 2nd and 3rd. I just think if all else is equal, you take 40 more hits(20 doubles) over 40 more walks. Will these 40 hits produce more than the 6 runs per season you calculated? I have no clue, and don’t want to do the math. But i think a hit is better than a walk…

By DAP

October 10, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this

ok, shaun, but i think we need good pitching more than we need a good CF. im sure we will end up with both, but the money needs to go to priorities, which is pitching.

By Hai Kurate

October 10, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

Cameron/Rowand

Debate rages on. Yes, chicks

Don’t dig the stat geeks.

By Painted Into A Corner Again

October 10, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this

Facts and recorded history never stopped me. Once I make a bold prediction or post an outlandish idea or suggest an ill advised prospect and others show that I’m wrong, I’ll proudly stand my ground and smother them in stats and twisted conjecture until they finally give up. I’m good at that 99.999% of the time. Some root for underdogs, I promote underachievement and overvalue in my picks. Why? Because I can. It creates much conversation and research by my opponents. That’s what I like. Works every time. My webfavorites buttons and stat books are all right here within my quick grasp. If I were an attorney I would represent OJ and Osama. I would just grill the jury and lecture and engage them until they were so tired they would just want to agree with me and go home and declare a mistrial. Works 99.999% of the time. I call it debate loss avoidance. Can’t have that.

By David O'Brien

October 10, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this

Flange1, just to belabor this discussion and take it to its illogical extreme (what else is early October for?), I’ll respond to this that you wrote:

“My choice would be defense for CF. We have offense at every other position and I would rather spend money on pitching than to waste it on a CF that played OK offense and OK defense.”

Really? You call the current LF platoon a lot of “offense”? I call it a high average, very little power and run production.

And when you subtract Andruw’s 30-40 homers, where you going to replace that power? A full season of Teixeira certainly can replace Andruw, but remember, Braves were counting on 20 or more homers at 1B even before Teixeira arrived (which they weren’t going to get, not without running a .200 hitter (Thorman, more or less, was that after April) out there every day and sacrificing eveything (including defense) in order to get those 20 homers.

You’d have power with Chipper (provided he stays healthy) and Teixeira, and decent-to-good power with McCann and Francoeur, but where else you getting power? Escobar MIGHT hit 12-15 homers, Edgar (if he’s back can hit 20), Kelly (if he’s back) can hit 20-25).

But that’s not exactly the Phils’ lineup of sluggers.

By Buffalo NY Braves fan

October 10, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this

By looking at the “road splits” of Rowand, he had a better road average than home. I’m not making that up, it was posted above in the blog. So if he played his whole career in hitters parks, and put up a better average on the road…. would that mean all the road games he played were better hitters parks than his home park? Not only was his batting average higher on the road, his OBP was exactly the same. The slugging percentage was down, so you would think that those cheap homers in philly were actually doubles and triples in other parks.

Not saying I want Rowand or Cameron. Just wanted to point that out.

Also, Shaun if you are going to post the career stats for Cameron and try to compare him to Andruw, post Andruws career stats next to Camerons, not just the bad year that Andruw had this season.

Stats don’t lie, but you can manipulate them to prove whatever point you want.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul, contracts usually increase as they go along. Also, the Braves would be stuck with Rowand until 2012. They’d only be committed to Cameron until 2009 (I don’t think any team will give him a guaranteed third year). And Schafer will likely be ready much sooner than 2012. Again, the years are more important than the dollars.

Also, the Braves would be unable to trade Rowand after 2-3 years because his salary will be much higher than his production.

Also, Cameron slugs better on the road and Rowand slugs better at home. Cameron has played in tougher parks for hitters at home the last two seasons and Rowand has never played in a hitter’s park so I think that either evens it out or gives the edge to Cameron.

fastballs, he just turned 30 so he’s likely not going to get better. And he hasn’t been all that great anyway. So in a couple of years when his numbers are nothing special at all and he’s making a lot of money, no one will take him. Teams are not going to need a player like he will be in a couple of years; maybe a player like he was in 2007 or before.

ColoradoBravesFan, the reason Player A is the better option is because of the 20 more doubles. That means he’s in scoring position 20 times more.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 2:39 PM | Link to this

Buffalo NY Braves fan, Rowand’s slugging percentage is worse on the road. Slugging is more important than batting average in terms of run creation.

Also, I’ve never posted Andruw’s stats next to Cameron’s. That was Tennessee Paul. If I had unlimited resources, I’d sign Andruw before any other free agent center fielder. Let me make that clear. But this discussion isn’t about the best player. It’s about the best deal for the Braves.

By Jared

October 10, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this

Escobar MIGHT hit 12-15 homers, Edgar (if he’s back can hit 20), Kelly (if he’s back) can hit 20-25).

So why trade Kelly Johnson if the Braves need power? Why are the Braves so bent on getting rid of Johnson and keeping Yunel Escobar? Escobar is a player with less homerun power, a less ability to walk and a poorer defense based on fielding percentage stats for 2007 than Johnson.

The Braves are really being just absurd in regards to Johnson. There is no obvious reason to show me that Escobar is better than Kelly Johnson.

By TGIF

October 10, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this

Toes Go In First!!!

By Braveheart

October 10, 2007 2:46 PM | Link to this

Braveheart, not sure how you can determine expected runs scored. Hitter A is going to be in scoring position 20 more times. If they’re in the same lineup and everything, I’m not sure how he wouldn’t be expected to score more runs than the other guy with the same OBP, same plate appearances but A has more times in scoring position.

Oops, I goofed there a bit (sort of). Was trying to make all things otherwise equal. Just assume both have the same number of doubles, triples, and homers.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

Flange1, what defensive CF would you pick? And at what cost? What about a center fielder that would be much worse offensively than an average CF so that he’s costing the Braves relative to an average CF? Sacrificing offense for defense is one thing but putting someone who is an awful hitter in the lineup everyday for defense is something else, especially these days.

Look how many close games the Braves lost just because Andruw Jones had an awful year and came to the plate more times than anyone in situations where he could have changed the game.

And before the jokes start about Cameron being an awful hitter or something like that, keep in mind he was the 10th best offensive centerfielder in the game without even adjusting for ballpark.

By ncscoots

October 10, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

Thank you, O Notorious One…some posters here have spoken to the idea that perhaps some off-season thought to the offense would not be misplaced. Tunnel-vision on pitching from the blog, although pitching is admittedly the elephant in the room. But, so far, the blog is sometimes trying to hit three guys in the 8 hole. All at the same time, LOL. An unlikely recipe for 800+ runs.

LF is a run-production wasteland unless Brandon Jones can have an almighty-fine rookie season, so it might be nice to have some RH pop on the bench who can also play some OF. You know, just in case, LOL. I have no idea who that might be, of course.

By David O'Brien

October 10, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

Jared, I haven’t heard ONE Braves official say they want to trade Kelly, much less indicate they’re “bent” on trading him. Not one. So I don’t know what you’re talking about there.

By David O'Brien

October 10, 2007 3:00 PM | Link to this

Don’t know where all the three-year offers for Cameron are coming from, much less the $8-10 mill a year estimate. I think it might take a two-year offer at about $7 mill per year for Braves to get him. Could be wrong, but i really think that’s about what it’d take.

By DAP

October 10, 2007 3:03 PM | Link to this

jared in the braves’ defense, they havent said anything about trading johnson, or thinking that escobar is better. thats all people on this blog talking.

By Buffalo NY Braves fan

October 10, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

Rowand has a lower slugging percent on the road because he hits less homers on the road. That is what happens when you leave the confines of a hitters park isn’t it?

Look at his STATS that would add up to his slugging…..

He has 1 less hit overall on the road than at home (in 23 less road games), 8 more doubles, same amount of triples, and 19 less homers.

So you are right, he has had the “benefit” of playing in a hitters park because it helps his HR numbers.

What about the doubles that he has hit? Those cheap HR’s in Philly turn into DOUBLES in other parks (which was my point). Turning HR’s into 2B’s will hurt his slugging, I agree. But that does not make Cameron better than him.

But, as I stated, I don’t want either of them here. I’m interested to know if DOB has heard who the internal options are for the Braves.

By Steamboat

October 10, 2007 3:05 PM | Link to this

The Braves are really being just absurd in regards to Johnson.

Jared, I don’t know that the BRAVES are being unfair to KJ; they did platoon him with Escobar, to get the best bast in the lineup vs RH/LH pitching, in an effort to win games.

But I haven’t seen any indication that the Braves are “choosing” Escobar over KJ. I think they value KJ very highly and will either find a place for him to play, or demand a lot of value in trade. I hope so, anyway.

Now, the BLOG certainly values Yunel much higher. No question about that.

Escobar had an electric half season; kind of like Francouer’s first half season (different “strengths”, but both came up and lit it up their first half year). I would expect Escobar to be a good player, but I don’t for a moment think he’s gonna hit .330 every year; and we pretty much know he’s not a base-stealer or a HR hitter. He’s likely to be a GOOD, not great, player, imo.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this

Braveheart, so I’m assuming the difference is singles versus walks; that’s what you were trying to do.

I’m not sure. I do think a hitter would drive in more runs with hits but I also may take the hitter with more walks because it may indicate a better eye and better command of the strikezone.

By Dr. Ruth

October 10, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this

Toes Go In First!!!

Depends on what you are “entering”.

By DAP

October 10, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

shaun, any CF we get for ‘08 will NOT bat cleanup, so they wont be a problem like andruw was this year.

if we get a weak-hitting CF with great defense, and bat him 8th, i actually think our offense will be better than it was last year. (if everything stays the same)

a guy that hits even .265 and walks a few times is gonna have a better OBP than andruw did in ‘07, and even if he doesnt drive in the runs himself, he will set up the top of the order to do so, or just keep innings going a little longer.

a guy that just has a .325 OBP batting 8th is gonna be better for the braves offense than andruw was batting 4th. the reason we lost so many close games and blamed it on andruw is because kelly, edgar and chipper were always on base and he would fail again and again to get them in or even get them over. a number 8 hitter isnt going to put that kind of stress on an offense, even if hes not very good.

By TennesseePaul

October 10, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

Buffalo NY Braves fan: I think that was me you are referring to for posting AJ’s numbers. And, I qualified it in the sense that, next year’s offense is only replacing last year’s performance. Much like the Giles to Johnson move. AJ didn’t hit 30-40 HR’s last year. He hit 26 and the team still had a solid offense. So I compared Cameron’s season averages as an assumption of what to expect, to the weak season AJ put up and found that there is only an improvement of 3%. But honestly, I doubt there would be that much improvement. Apparently Cameron can’t hit in pitcher friendly parks, and unfortunately he’d be moving to the one NL division with the most pitcher friendly parks in it. And his career NL East numbers are lower than his career numbers. Actually, his NL East numbers are the lowest of all the NL divisions. He’d be playing the majority of his season in the NL East…

Rowand, Winn, hell, even Lofton would be a better offensive upgrade than Cameron. But Lofton’s defense, sheeeesh. I could do without watching that.

By mo in the boonies

October 10, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

Let me get this straight…you all are willing to get a second rate centerfielder that can’t hit, but Andruw had to go, because he was Mr. Strike-out man?? His play in the field was the best, but he wasn’t worth the money, (a couple mil. more than the the second rate guy) but any other CF guy is, no matter how much he strikes out? Just doesn’t make sense. They would be better off bringing up a rookie and trying him out in Center, wouldn’t cost much, and they can always send him back down and try another one. They don’t seem to have any pitchers in the minors, so they must have plenty of fielders.

What I’d like to know is, how come all the other teams have such good players in the minors that they can bring them up without having to leave them down there for four or five years. I think the Braves keep them down there too long, by the time they are finally brought up, (if they ever are with the Braves) all their youthful enthusiasm has worn away. Either that, or the scouts and coaches in the Braves minor leagues just plain stink.

By ncscoots

October 10, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

[Escobar is] likely to be a GOOD, not great, player, imo

Guess it depends on your definition. Is a career .291/.349/.407 with Gold Gloves a GOOD, not great, player? If so, then Escobar has a chance to be Edgar Renteria.

Escobar in 319 AB: .326/.385/.451; even a dropoff in those numbers would still leave him all the way down the street from good, especially at his position.

By Big Blue

October 10, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

Mr. Shaun, you new I BMed is ready.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

Buffalo NY Braves fan, okay so Rowand has been helped by his home parks, which was my point. And Cameron has been hurt by his home parks for a large portion of his career.

But Rowand may very well be the better player. But that’s not my argument. The discussion is about what is a better deal for the Braves.

By KC

October 10, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this

DOB: You don’t think Matt Diaz is a run producer? Seriously? If Matt Diaz plays every day next year, you don’t think hit well over .300, with 15-20 homers, 75-plus RBI, and 35 doubles?

By brent a.

October 10, 2007 3:25 PM | Link to this

Gil: Not sure if anyone addressed your question, or not, but the issue with A-Rod in 2004 was that he was trying to restructure his existing deal to be traded to the Red Sox, and the Player’s Union places a limitation on how much of a paycut one can take (and maybe even how much salary one can defer). If there had been no such rules, ARod would likely be a Red Sox, and not a Yankee.

If A-Rod were to opt out of his current deal next month, then he can sign for the league minimum if he so desires. If no one offers him what he was making on his current deal, then that is the risk he took by becoming a free agent. Although in Arod’s case, there isn’t much risk.

He’s opting out at the right time. Three years from now, he may not be able to command as large a contract as he can get right now. Hard to believe, though, that 7 years after signing that monster deal, he may be able to put together something even bigger.

By Buffalo NY Braves fan

October 10, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

I guess I was meaning to send the AJ part at you. I have been reading Shaun for the last few days posting how GREAT Mike Cameron is, then posting stats that do not support it.

Do you or anyone else on this blog know if Esquivel is a CF or a corner OF? Would he be an OK replacement for a year or 2?

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul, apparently you don’t get it. Virtually everyone stats are worse in pitcher’s park, it’s not just Cameron. It’s not like skills diminish; his stats are worse (and everyone’s are worse) because it’s harder to hit. Come on, you are smarter than that. Why is it so hard for you to understand that it’s not that players can’t hit in pitcher’s parks, it’s that their stats look worse than their true abilities?

So, yes, maybe his stats will look worse in a lot of NL East parks than they would in a variety of parks, but so would most players’.

Let me show you something. Here are AVG/OBP/SLG in Petco for the Padres and their opponents:

Padres: .235/.310/.378

Opponents: .235/.294/.336

Here are the Padres numbers away from Petco along with the overall NL numbers:

Padres: .265/.333/.440

NL: .266/.334/.422

Does that mean that the Padres or anyone else can’t hit in pitcher’s parks? According to your logic it does. But in actuality offense drops in pitcher’s parks so of course the stats are going to look worse than actual abilities. Get it now?

By Jared

October 10, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

I don’t know that the BRAVES are being unfair to KJ; they did platoon him with Escobar, to get the best bast in the lineup vs RH/LH pitching, in an effort to win games.

That’s a whole different thing. Why are so many managers slaves to the lefty-righty thing? Bobby Cox is no where near the only one, though he is one of the bigger platoon managers in MLB history.

Think about the platoon in left and the platoon at second. The platoon at first. Even platooning closers when Wickman was on the DL with Gonzalez and Soriano. And that is just Bobby’s 2007.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

TennPaul, Adrian Gonzalez hit .266/.335/.424 in Petco and .295/.358/.570. I don’t suppose that means Petco skewed his number but he can’t hit in pitchers parks, right?

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 3:42 PM | Link to this

Buffalo NY Braves fan, I have never said Cameron was “GREAT.” Apparently you really haven’t been reading my posts. I’ve been saying that Cameron seems like the best deal because of a number of factors—namely the contract he commands and because he’s decent, not because he’s some star player. Again with the false dilemmas that those that disagree with me seem so fond of.

By Buffalo NY Braves fan

October 10, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

If looking at the best option for the Braves, I will take neither.

I try to trade for Tavarez or Sullivan from the Rockies.

Tavarez makes a lot more sense than Sullivan, because he is a lead-off guy and a force on the base paths(when healthy.) Both are inexpensive options and would not command a huge ransom to acquire.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul, I think you are misunderstanding me, too. I’m not arguing Cameron would be a better player than Rowand or Winn or some other player next season. I’m arguing Cameron would be a better deal for the Braves because of all factors to consider—namely contract and more specifically years of a contract.

By mike

October 10, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

I personally dont think the braves are in need of another power hitter because I think Francouer and Mccan’s slight drop off powerwise this year was due to different things. Mccan, I believe dropped of because of the ankle injury he played with most of the year and next year I think he’ll have a season closer to his 2006 campaign than 2007. I think Francouer dropped off homerun wise because he made it a point to go to right field more and in the process improve his batting average. Francouer mentioned that he would be hitting the weights harder next year and as a result I think that some of those fly balls that were at the right field warning track this year will find the seats next year. I think he’ll easily hit 25-30 hr and mccan will hit 20 to 25. Throw that in with Texiera anc Chipper hitting 30+, Kelly Johnson hitting 20+, Diaz and B Jones hitting 20+ in a platoon, and thas more than enough power. Look at how powerful everyone thinks the red sox are and they only had one 30 hr guy and two 20 hr guys. How much power do you really need? Especially in the national league. But if for whatever reason the Braves felt they needed more power they could go after an inexpensive power hitter such as Jason Bay who the pirates mentioned might available. How bout this scenario: Chuck James, Brandon Jones, Kelly Johnson, Martin Prado,and Scott Thorman for Jason Bay and Ian Snell?

By ppaddy123

October 10, 2007 3:50 PM | Link to this

KJ and Escobar are both solid players. However, because of Escobar’s “style”(yeah I said style) he’s more fun to watch. He’s aggressive and daring on the bases. The dude’s smooth. KJ, on the other hand, is very workman like. He is what he is. They’re Ying and Yang to one another.

But, at the end of the day, I want them both. My Braves wish list is to keep Edgar. Play Escobar at 2nd. Put KJ in LF. Keep Diaz to face really tough lefties, but KJ can hit lefties too.

Willie Harris is not the answer to CF! He plays his heart out, but I think he got tired at the end of the year. I think he’ll get picked up as a free agent after the world series. I’m sure he impressed enough teams with his flexibility to play several positions to earn a 2-3 million dollar paycheck. Just my opinion, though.

So who do we want patrolling CF? Personally, I want a guy with range and experience. A captain in CF. Shaun has thrown a ton of stats at us. I think Cameron will be our best short term solution. The guy is a pro. He’ll be playing at “home”. Plus he won’t be asked to do as much in our line up as he had to do for the Padres.

By Steamboat

October 10, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

Buffalo NY Braves fan, from what I’ve read, Esquivel has managed to get himself suspended for “violation of team policies”, etc, 2 years in a row, and he was also suspended in 2004. I really don’t have any details (don’t know if any have ever been released), but he can’t seem to get through a year without finding disfavor with management.

Sounds like his future with us might be in doubt. Let’s hope he grows up a little, and quick.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this

Buffalo NY Braves fan, I don’t know about Taveras. His career slugging is .350. And his OBP isn’t all that impressive either.

Sullivan may be okay but he has similar issues: .332 OBP/.393 SLG.

By ppaddy123

October 10, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

The Braves have a lead-off man. His name is ESCOBAR

By uga-brave

October 10, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

not to fuel this cameron fire but his .ops was just as good as francouers last season.

By RC

October 10, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this

To chime in for the first time on the Cameron issue, I do not think he’s a bad player. He’s been considered an elite defensive CF for years, and he does provide decent power and speed, albeit with a poor average. However, if the Braves are so strapped that they might not be able to afford an $8M offer to Glavine for one year, there is NO WAY they need to spend $7M on Mike Cameron. I’m not saying he’s not worth that, I’m just saying he’s not worth that to the Braves. A reliable, innings eating pitcher is a much bigger concern. If the Braves can add Cameron and still fill their pitching needs, then make the move. But if commiting $7 mil to CF hinders shoring up the rotation at all, then I think the Braves have to pursue other options. I still think the best option (depending on cost in prospects and availability) would be to make an offer for Coco Crisp.

By Buffalo NY Braves fan

October 10, 2007 4:01 PM | Link to this

ok Shaun,

you think Cameron is the best guy for the Braves situation. I don’t happen to agree. So we’ll agree to disagree…. I don’t feel like looking up stats all night long to prove there are better and cheaper options that could be available.

Of the CF’s in free agency, Cameron is probably the best option if the Braves think Schafer is really ready to play in a year or 2.

Of all the options, I think signing Cameron or any CF should be the last choice. They should look internally, then trade, then sign someone.

By OVERLOD (Band of Brothers)

October 10, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this

My guess is that all the names you are mentioning for CF…… will never come to ATL. Braves will do as always, they find someone that comes cheap and thats under the radar.

They already have lots of talent and proven players and there is not much money spend since there are other needs more important (renteria, tex, jeff, SP and maybe dotel).

Be prepared to see someone like willie, matt, francisco cabrera, tony tarasco, mike mordecai, mark derosa, eddie perez, jerome walton, tony graffinino, keith lockhart, gerald williams, etc.

Do not expect some deon neon, otis nixon, marquis, lofton (in his prime), etc., cause it aint going to happen.

It will be a kid or a washed up guy that comes cheap, or maybe a not so young guy that struggled recently. Whats for sure is that they wont pay more than 4 millions (maybe 5, but i dont think so).

By DAP

October 10, 2007 4:05 PM | Link to this

ppaddy123, i cant believe you said “style” dude. youre crazy, man. :-)

By Lew

October 10, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

UGABrave-Dude, as much as you p!$$ and moan about Francoeur, do you actually think you just made a recommendation for Cameron?

By Braveheart

October 10, 2007 4:07 PM | Link to this

Braveheart, so I’m assuming the difference is singles versus walks; that’s what you were trying to do. I’m not sure. I do think a hitter would drive in more runs with hits but I also may take the hitter with more walks because it may indicate a better eye and better command of the strikezone.

Shaun, I don’t know what I am doing. I’m bored and playing with numbers right now, so bear with me. Go have fun and add up all the total bases, walks, hbps, and SBs less CS for leadoff hitters and multiply it by .29 formula. Just try it and see what you find. Here are several examples with the totals for HBPs, BBs, TBs, SBs, less CS and expected runs and actual runs per 162:

Rickey Henderson: 415, 121 expected, 121 actual.

Vince Coleman: 346, 100 expected, 100 actual.

Jimmy Rollins: 388, 113 expected, 112 actual.

Jose Reyes: 388, 114 actual, 113 expected.

Kelly Johnson (this year): 186, 54 expected, 54 actual.

Kelly Johnson (per 162): 396, 115 expected, 115 actual.

Juan Pierre: 332, 97 actual, 96 expected.

Willie Wilson: 349, 104 actual, 101 expected.

Ichiro: 384, 113 actual, 111 expected.

Hanley: 470, 134 actual, 136 expected.

Sizemore: 439, 128 actual, 127 expected.

Lou Brock: 375, 107 actual, 109 expected.

Lenny Dykstra: 392, 112 actual, 114 expected.

Kenny Lofton: 422, 125 actual, 122 expected.

Wade Boggs: 380, 109 actual, 110 expected.

Biggio: 401, 116.8 actual, 116.4 expected.

Jackie Robinson: 383, 111 actual, 111 expected.

Ty Cobb: 416, 120 actual, 120 expected.

Alfonso Soriano with his 467, 123 actual, 135 expected creates a HUGE problem with the forumula.

Brian Roberts & Rafael Furcal are problem childs for the formula. You would expect Roberts to score 105 runs but he actually only scores 101. You would expect Furcal to only score 108 runs but he actually averages 114 per 162. Other problem childs include Joe Morgan, Pete Rose, Derek Jeter, Brett Butler and so on.

So, it ain’t perfect at all. It does seem that the guys who outperform or underperform it by 3 or more runs tend to be either guys like Jeter, Rose, Brett Butler, Furcal, Willie Wilson, Kenny Lofton are guys who played for mostly good teams and that guys who underperform like Soriano and Brian Roberts and Joe Morgan are guys who had the unfortunate displeasure of hitting leadoff for not so good offensive teams. The rest with good sample sizes and a good mixture of good, bad, and so so teams during their careers pretty much even out as expected.

By RC

October 10, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

The more I look at his stats, Cameron really has been Andruw Jones lite for the last few years of his career (and I don’t mean that in a good way). As bad of a season as Andruw had at the plate last year, his contact rate was 76% (a good indicator of expected batting avg). Cameron’s contact rate last year was 72%, and don’t throw out the “park factor” because contact rate isn’t affected by that. Andruw had 572 AB, and 138 Ks. Cameron had 571 AB, only one less than Andruw, yet he had 160 Ks, or 22 more strikeouts than Andruw in about the same number of at bats. And while his park might have negatively affected his other numbers some, Cameron did not have to face the best pitching staff in the major league, since they were his teammates. I have a feeling if you put him in LA or San Fransico last season, he would have had an even worse year than he did. For $8 mil a year, I’d keep looking.

By Buffalo NY Braves fan

October 10, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

Tavarez and Sullivan are both solid CF’s that are OK hitters with little pop in their bats.

It’s like having Juan Pierre. You get a lot of singles and doubles, some triples. They do not hit double digit homers, but that is not the type of player they are.

We are not going to find a 5 tool player for 7 mil. I will take my chances with a speedy CF that won’t make many errors, can get on base, and steal.

They are going to be a #1, #2, or #8 hitter in the line-up anyway, so there is no need to get a guy who will hit 30+ HR’s.

By Ron Roberts

October 10, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

Don’t get me wrong; I’d like the Braves to add a CF to the lineup who can provide a 25-35 HR total at the end of the season, too, but frankly, Andruw obviously didn’t provide that for us last season, and we did fine, offensively. Our starting pitching was the issue.

So I could see where some folks would say just put a good glove out there, even if it means Scott Thorman-like struggling out of a Richmond call-up, offensively. That being said, I don’t think we have to do that, but I do think signing Mike Cameron is almost an achilles heel in our lineup as Andruw was last season. His batting average ain’t scary (under .260 4 of his last 6 seasons), and while his power numbers are hovering near what Andruw gave us last year (and Andruw hit 15 fewer HRs than in 2006, 25 less than in 2005…), his RsBI totals don’t exactly pop off the stat sheet, either.

I’m of the mind that we’re not spending a big chunk of money for a poor batting-averaged, sure-gloved centerfielder with some pop in his bat, so why pick up another?

Adding Teixeira last season fills the void, already, in my opinion. So that puts us needing to fill the Adam LaRoche numbers, still, right?

Well, Kelly Johnson showed he’s more than capable of hitting for average with some power (which we’d ceased to get from Marcus Giles years ago), so that chips into that void.

I’m not saying Gregor Blanco’s the guy, and I’m not advocating our pulling Schaffer up now, either; but I also don’t believe we have to throw $15 million at Mike Cameron for two seasons, either. But if we are going to spend that kind of money at the outfield, I’d prefer we just put that towards Rowand.

But, in the back of my mind (and Scheruholz’s, too, I’d bet) has to be the little post-it note that reads “need to sign Francoeur to long-term deal before the price climbs even higher” while we still have him at such an affordable price. So throwing $$$ at CF, whether it be Cameron or Rowand, might not be so do-able, especially since we’re all in agreement that the starting rotation needs attention first and foremost.

Something tells me that Renteria’s gonna be the odd man out, because his replacement is good, and good now, at the MLB level, and Edgar’s price, though affordable for us, is still the largest salary we can get rid of and get something tangible (and probably afforable) in return that upgrades the rotation now.

By Jared

October 10, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

The Braves have a lead-off man. His name is ESCOBAR

Yunel Escobar: .385 OBP, 27 walks, 319 AB, 5 stolen bases and 3 caught stealing.

Kelly Johnson: .375 OBP, 79 walks, 521 AB, 9 stolen bases and 5 Caught Stealing.

Nope, sorry. Not seeing how one is anymore of a leadoff hitter than the other.

By uga-brave

October 10, 2007 4:32 PM | Link to this

lew, absolutely not, but he is a better option then all the scraps on our radar. how times have changed when we sit here and argue about B list players. shoot let me toss out a interesting thought, the brewers have a ton of outfielders. CORY HART would look pretty good to me in center and he can really run.

.295,24,81 23 sbs plus the guy had a .892 .ops. guys i am telling you if the brew crew are stupid enough to part with him this would be a great fit.

By billtr1

October 10, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

First, good luck to Andruw. He has done nothing but good things for Atlanta and deserves nothing but praise. Second, please get Glav back. He takes the ball every fifth day and does a good job.

By David O'Brien

October 10, 2007 4:43 PM | Link to this

Jared, take a look at Escobar’s stats as a LEADOFF MAN:

In 151 at-bats as a leadoff man, he hit .351 with 15 doubles, two homers, 30 runs, 16 RBIs, .400 OBP and .490 slugging percentage.

Kelly Johnson, in 306 leadoff at-bats, hit .268 with 14 doubles, six triples, nine homers, 54 runs, 40 RBIs, a .372 OBP and .441 slugging.

Both very good, but Escobar’s average, OBP and slugging all significantly higher, albeit in half as many at-bats from the leadoff spot.

He hit better and better as season progressed, too. His .400 leadoff OBP ranked second in the NL behind Hanley Ramirez (.405).

Escobar hit .336 with an .876 OPS after the break.

As solid as Kelly’s numbers were — and they were very solid, surpassing expectations — Escobar’s performance in the second half was pretty damn outstanding for a first-year player.

By OVERLOD (Band of Brothers)

October 10, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this

Some past player:

Why did the braves let JUAN CRUZ go? i always liked that guy.

What about CHARLES THOMAS? Did braves let him go because of Langerhans?

ELI MARRERO, why did we let him go?

Tim Spooneybarger ??? i liked him also, now he is off the map.

ANDY MARTE…..on the bench of the indians, has anyone seen him in the playoffs? horrible numbers. Great trade (renteria), at least for now.

REITSMA posted 7+ ERA in seattle.

KOLB only pitched 3 innings for the bucs (ERA=9.00), i suppose they released him.

Present:

MATT DIAZ, who is that RICARDO RODRIGUEZ given in the trade for matt?

By Steamboat

October 10, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this

ncscoots, I knew I was setting myself up with that comment about Yunel!

Escobar’s OPS was quite good, but it was driven by what I believe to be an unsustainable batting average. I think he’s likely to be a .300/.370/.450 type of hitter - and that’s not bad! But it’s not great… it’s “good.” Maybe “very good.”

He’s not gonna steal bases like Reyes, Rollins, or Ramirez; and he’s not gonna hit HR like Rollins or Ramirez.

I LIKE Escobar and hope he turns into a superstar; If you’ve read my posts, you’ll see that my “plan” calls for both him and KJ in the lineup at the same time.

I just think he’s, well, good, not great. I feel the same way about Renteria.

I have NO problem with having “good” players on my team. We can only afford 1 or 2 greats (right now we have 2 - Chipper and Tex). Pitchers excepted, obviously.

(and we’ll see about the Gold Gloves!)

By TennesseePaul

October 10, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

Thanks Payne. Wasn’t quite clear on that, but now that you’ve been a total @ss, it’s all cleared up.?
Unfortunately you have yet to justify giving 7-8 million a year to Mr. Mediocrity in Decline.
But you did a fine job of showing that players can actually hit better than .229 in Petco.

So I am left with thinking that, another Free Agent signing would be a better option than Cameron because you can always trade the player (see, I disagree with the “being stuck with” attitude).

Or trading for a better option than Cameron. For instance, Randy Winn, a younger guy who’s already under contract.

Yes, I’m not sold on Schafer yet. I’m glad he’s in the system, but as far as I can tell, he isn’t the answer. He’s a possible answer that is a few years away. A lot can happen in that time. For all I know about the future, he could be hit by a truck as soon as I push the post button.

Here it goes Schafer, look both ways and be careful….

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

RC, I didn’t know you had to have a good contact rate to be somewhat productive. That’s news to me. Look at Ryan Howard’s contact rate and he’s very productive. So I’m sure you can be somewhat productive with what we think of as a “high” strikeout total.

Buffalo NY Braves fan, are you serious about Taveras and Sullivan being OK hitters? Maybe you didn’t get that or think I’m lying. Let me post their career numbers again:

Taveras - .293/.338/.350

Sullivan - .281/.332/.393

Those numbers are awful. And do you actually think comparing a player to Juan Pierre is a good thing?

Pierre - .301/.348/.374

If you think Taveras, Sullivan or Pierre should be anything more than fourth or fifth outfielders, at best, I think maybe you need to just watch the game and leave the opinions to the more observant.

By Savannah Guy

October 10, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

Here are several examples with the totals for HBPs, BBs, TBs, SBs, less CS and expected runs and actual runs per 162:

Ironic, the yearly run totals of one particular player, when cross-referenced with other outside (Red Man)stat sources, were found to exactly match the number of chewing tobacco spit piles in Center Field during a single game:

Lenny Dykstra: 392, 112 actual, 114 expectorated

Funny how so many things allign. Now Cuz…match that!

By Kevin Brafford

October 10, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

David,

Saw your story just now on the 2008 schedule that posted on this site. I don’t see the actual schedule, though, neither here nor or on the Braves’ site. Can you enlighten me? Thanks.

By ncscoots

October 10, 2007 4:56 PM | Link to this

Steamboat, gotcha. Would you settle for a Renteria clone for the next 6 years? Yeah, me, too, LOL.

By Lew

October 10, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this

Overlord-Chuckie T was part of the deal that brought Hudson to Atlanta. All in all, we took Oakland to the cleaners on that one. I think Thomas got picked up by the Brewers this year.

I’d just as soon have Escobar leading off, anyway. One of Kelly Johnson’s most positve points is the fact he can hit anywhere in the linep, do it at a moment’s notice and do it without complaint.

Just saw the schedule. No Boston trip for us this year, but it just so happens my wife has a business trip to Toronto the weekend the Braves are there. Looks like I’d better get a passport.

By Novice Ned

October 10, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

So if Diaz isn’t a run-producer in LF, then does that make him a logical selection for the #2 batter? Because he certainly is not there for strictly defensive purposes. But with his unlimited hitting zone, maybe he’d be an ideal #8 batter to allow the pitcher to bat in that innning. DOB if Diaz isn’t a run producer, how would you project him playing 145 games a season?

By RC

October 10, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this

A note on Escobar/Johnson at leadoff:

While I’m not outright arguing with DOB’s stats, I do think it should be pointed out that most of Escobar’s time as leadoff was in a platoon situation, while most of KJ’s time at leadoff was before a platoon was in place. This means that Kelly probably faced a much larger percentage of lefties than Escobar did righties, and could skew the numbers. That being said, both were very good in the role.

By OVERLOD (Band of Brothers)

October 10, 2007 5:05 PM | Link to this

DOB and Jared

You have in yunel not only a guy that knows how to get to 1st, but he knows what to do once he is there. And one of the things i like the most about this guy hitting leadoff, is that he is one of the few braves not thinking FENCE more than 50% of the times.

He might not be one of the fastest guys in the league, but his LEGS/MIND/TALENT combo sure make him the lead candidate to be our leafoff man, by far.

Im sure more than 90% of MLB starters would hate to face him to start a game.

By Lew

October 10, 2007 5:10 PM | Link to this

Overlord-I have a Chuckie T drawing. Do you want it? I’ve got a Kudzu Kids T Shirt, too. That sure lasted, didn’t it?

By Buffalo NY Braves fan

October 10, 2007 5:11 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

as far as I am concerned a .300 batting average is considered OK to good. You are right that their Slugging percent is down, but as mostly singles and doubles hitters it would be.

They both play decent defense and Tavarez has that knack for stealing bases…. which means he commands attention from the pitcher (a la Jose Reyes) and would help in manufacturing runs.

Oh, and if you look back up the blog at the NL averages this year…

.266/.334/.422

Tavarez has a better than average BA, and OBP, but lacks in slugging (he is NOT a HR hitter).

That looks to be better than horrible does it not?

While we’re at it, Sullivan has a better BA then the average, a slightly lower OBP, again the slugging is well below the average, but they are not power hitters.

Either of those guys would be serviceable for a year or 2 until Schafer is ready to play.

That would be my opinion, but to me it looks like they are average CF’s, and average would mean they are OK.

By flange1

October 10, 2007 5:12 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Thanks for the response! I hear what you are saying, but I don’t equate offense to POWER. I don’t want to get into Shaun’s doghouse bu talking about BA, but when I talk about offense I mean a combination of power + on base percentage and average. One of my problems with the Braves in the past few years has been the reliance on HR. I like a more balanced attack with better hitters and a few home runs.

I agree that it would be great to get a great defensive outfielder who can also hit for average and power.

But we are also limited by budget.

My point is, I would rather spend the limited money we have on pitching rather than a mediocre CF like Mike Cameron and fill the CF job with an internal option.

How is that?

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 5:12 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul, problem is in your premise. He’s not “Mr. Mediocrity.” He’s one of the 10-12 best centerfielders in the game. And the Braves won’t be able to get at least a solid centerfielder for less years and probably not for less money without trading talent. (Winn will make more in 2009 and of course the Braves would have to give up quality players.)

If he’s so mediocre, I wish you’d show me the evidence. I’m trying, I honestly am, but I just don’t see it.

Of all the centerfielders with at least 200 away plate appearances, Cameron was 11th in OBP and 8th in SLG. He was 7th in Isolated Power (SLG with singles left out of the equation). (Oh, I forgot. Batting average is more important than anything even though it doesn’t take into account total bases or walks or how many outs a player uses up. Oh, wait I’m also supposed to include Petco stats because he can’t hit there and it has nothing to do with the fact that the park is a tough place to hit.)

Also, I’m not opposed to Winn but only if he comes packaged with pitchers because I think it would be unwise to trade quality players and pay Winn what you’d pay Cameron. Not getting into an argument about who’s better between the two because that is irrelevant. Cameron is not that much worse if he even is worse.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 10, 2007 5:17 PM | Link to this

Is Cameron really a better option in CF than Winn when they will cost the same price? I just don’t see it.

DOB, I think you are wrong about Cameron. I think somebody may offer him $9 or $10 mil a year. If Matthews Jr. can squeeze $10 mil from that tightass Bill Stoneman then Cameron can get $9 mil a year over two years. Its just a different market. Its a ridiculously priced market but that’s the way it is. Just like I think Andruw will get at least $17 mil and may actually even get $18 mil. I think $20 mil is a bit high. But, I could definitely see a few teams giving Andruw a base salary of $16 mil with incentives that can reach $17 or $18 mil. I could be wrong but then again I never thought anybody in their right mind would give Gary Matthews Jr. $10 mil or 103 year old Moises Alou $ 8 mil. But, guess what? They did!

By RC

October 10, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

I never said contact rate = productive. What I did say is that contact rate is a decent indicator of expected batting avg. Howard hit .268 this season, which is a fairly low average for an “elite” hitter. He was productive because he launched 47 HR. My point was as upset as people are with Andruw’s season last year, Cameron is just going to give them more of the same. I know you have argued that Andruw was more productive than others seem to think, and I don’t disagree that his walks were valuable. But the fan base as a whole saw Andruw as a huge failure, and I think that Cameron would be viewed the same way.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this

Buffalo NY Braves fan, one thing to consider is ballpark. Taveras and Sullivan have spent their entire career playing their home games in Colorado and Houston yet it hasn’t seemed to help them become better than average.

Also average takes into account every player, even bench players. So I’m pretty positive Taveras and Sullivan wouldn’t compare to a typical major league regular.

By robyn

October 10, 2007 5:43 PM | Link to this

Hey Dave-

There is already speculation that Tex does not resign with the Braves and will end up with the Mets or Yankees, both of whom will be looking for first basemen. Do you see this happening? If we can’t resign him, we should probably trade him now, and avoid a circus.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 5:46 PM | Link to this

Robert (Justice Is The Best), Winn doesn’t cost the same. He’ll also cost the Braves (or any other team) players in addition to salary.

Stoneman is a tight-a*? Angels have the fourth-highest payroll in the bigs.

Matthews was 32-years-old, not 35. Cameron will get no more than Alou.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 10, 2007 5:47 PM | Link to this

I love when people bring up Charles Thomas and Juan Cruz and the countless number of other busts to “justify” their argument that Escobar isn’t that good or shouldn’t be handed the everyday job @ SS. The difference between Escobar and those guys is the same one that existed when Frenchy and Mccann came up. That difference is that those guys have something special. You can see it. They weren’t exposed when they played everyday. Escobar only got better as the season went along. Look at his numbers.

He may wind up being a bust but I doubt it. Its those intangibles that certain folks on here dismiss because they can’t necessarily be proven with numbers that makes you believe that certain players have “it”. Derek Jeter is the perfect example. He puts up very good numbers but they aren’t superstar numbers. Last year was actually an anomaly for Jeter. He is a very steady player. What seperates him from the pack is that he has that knack for getting the big hit or making the big play. He brings a grittiness and swagger that every team needs. That is what Escobar does. He brings that special something. Seriously, is Jeter the best pure SS talent wise in the AL? No. He isn’t better than Tejada really. When Lugo is right he is not better than Lugo. Overall Orlando Cabrerra is a better shortstop especially when taking in account his defense. In the NL there are great shortstops everywhere (Rollins, Ramirez, Renteria, Reyes, Greene, Furcal {?}, Tulowizki) but I wouldn’t take one of them over Jeter. It pains me to say that because the Yankees suck! But, when the game is on the line more often than not Jeter will get big hit or make the big play. Take him off that Yankees team and they would fall apart. He is a leader.

I see the same qualities in Jeter. I never saw those in Charles Thomas, Juan Cruz, Ryan Langerhans, Mike Hessman, or Dwayne Wise or whatever else jobber you people can dig up!

By Lew

October 10, 2007 5:48 PM | Link to this

Shaun-Have you even looked at Cameron’s fielding stats the past several years? His fielding pct. is .08 to .10 lower (one year .15) than Andruw’s and he makes two to three times as many errors (one year 5 times the errors). He also averages playing 15-20 less games each year (and I’m not counting the one year he missed over 80 games). I just don’t think the guy is anywhere near as good as you think he is. Certainly he is not worth anywhere near $7 million a year or more. I’m sorry. You can cite all of your weird stats about ballpark adjustments and whatever the hell else you care to dredge up and the fact still remains-on a team that must spend their $$$ wisely, in a fiscally responsible manner-a team that almost everyone acknowledges needs starting pitching more than anything, Cameron is a no go, for many reasons. Fill the position from within the organization and use the money to pay for pitching. It doesn’t matter one little bit what formulas you use-what arcane theories and equations you throw at the problem-that approach is the only one that makes sense.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 5:51 PM | Link to this

RC, Howard was productive because of his power, certainly, but also because of his OBP; he avoided outs at a good rate. Batting average is a stat from an era when weak contact was the name of the game. Now hitters swing hard and try to only swing at their pitch. OBP is closer to what batting average is meant to be, at least in this day and age. Batting average is NOT king and should not be king.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 6:05 PM | Link to this

Lew, Cameron’s not a great fielder anymore but defense is not as vital as offense because players can impact a game more on offense.

Yes, it’s much more responsible for the Braves to go with someone like Blanco, who is probably no more than a fringe player, or Willie Harris or to put someone in the organization who hasn’t played much centerfield.

I honestly really think most of you folks just want to argue with me because you have some personal issues with the way I like to evaluate players or something. I honestly don’t think you really believe Cameron is a bad option. You can’t. If the Braves sign Cameron and you people kill Schuerholz for doing it, that’s when I’ll believe you folks are sincere. Actually, shouldn’t you be killing the Braves organization already? I mean DOB has already said they like Cameron. So, I think you should be criticizing the organization more than me. With me I think it’s personal otherwise the sentiment would be “why are these idiots interested in Cameron?”.

By Spinelli

October 10, 2007 6:11 PM | Link to this

DOB: What would it take to get David DeJesus from KC? Also, is there any chance Thorman goes back to playing a little left field along with Diaz or his future with the Braves all but over? I would think JS might want to hold onto Thorman as insurance for Tex leaving. One more thing, is Ryan Langerhans a free agent, I noticed he was designated for assignment ealier in Sept. If he is would the team invite him to spring training as a non-roster and put him in the CF mix if no one else is aquired?

By Overlord

October 10, 2007 6:31 PM | Link to this

Lew, i wonder ……….why have you kept a Chuckie T. drawing all this years. Lonely nights???

By TennesseePaul

October 10, 2007 6:36 PM | Link to this

Now, this isn’t scientific I suppose. There are no weighted averages or anything. This is only out of Qualified players who held the position of CF and the of any OF position and had enough games to qualify for any sort of batting trophy. So you don’t get to see what teir of player each person is. That is to say, is the players production within a certain standard diviation of the norm, or how far from the top is it. Towards the bottom the drop off is steap in some of these categories. But anywho here it is:

Statistic CF Rank OF Rank
Average     18/20   55/57    
On Base %   13/20   47/57
Slugging     8/20   36/57
K's          1/20    2/57
Home Runs   10/20  T26/57
OPS          9/20   43/57

Now, maybe it is just me. Perhaps I’m being unfair. I see a .250 average, .340 OBP and 440 Slugging which round to a solid .780 OPS which puts Cameron right at a 100 OPS Adjusted (100 being the league average in adjusted OPS) and I think, wow, not too exciting, just average, mediocre if you will. Then I get challenged to find the rankings. They were posted a few days ago by the Steamboat if I recall but there they are again in all their glory. Top 10 in the league for CF. Well, in 3 categories at least. And that sounds really good. Saddly that puts him right in the middle of the pack, again, average, or Mediocre if you will. But then you look at outfielders as a whole and you see he’s consistantly down near the bottom in those rankings.

I don’t want to take away all of his thunder. I mean, this type of production totally merits 7 to 8 million a season for a 2 year contract with a third year option (was that player or team?). So here it is, the bargaining chip. He does rank in the top 2 in both splits, CF and OF in one category. He’s a king of striking out. He just barely missed the OF title. He lost out to Adam Dunn. Can you believe it? Don’t fret though, he only lost by 5 K’s.

I guess the question is, if you could have a player for 8 million who hits for higher average, better Slugging, better OBP, is younger, strikes out less and is under contract for 2 years, or available for a trade-favorable contract would you take him, or go for Mr. Mediocrity? I think I’ve made my choice known…

By Tyler

October 10, 2007 6:39 PM | Link to this

Lew had it right before-pitching is more important than anything else. No Cameron, no Patterson, no Rowand, no Hunter. Find a cheap option to play CF who can get the job done-Gregor Blanco could fill the spot for a year or two.

A pitcher needs to be acquired other than Glavine-then Glavine can be had as icing on the cake. A QUALITY pitcher needs to acquired, most likely by trade. Thorman, Prado, B.Jones, Chuck James, Renteria/Escobar could be dealt for a Dan Haren/Rich Harden/Ian Snell/Aaron Harang. Pitching wins games. You don’t see many 12-10 games in the playoffs.

By Steamboat

October 10, 2007 6:41 PM | Link to this

Shaun, you suggest the choice is between someone like Cameron, or someone like Blanco.

Isn’t there an “in between?” Do you see no merit in The Plan to move KJ to CF? I enjoy your views on the game, but you never discuss much in the way of “possibilities.”

I see KJ as (potentially) a Chone Figgins type; different offensive skills, obviously, but good offensive skills and the ability to switch between OF and IF.

KJ has been jerked around a little, but he’s still just 25, and has played both OF and IF at the ML level. And, he’s made a lot more money than I had at 25, and gets to play baseball, so I’m not feeling too much pity about that.

I know there’s no stats to say KJ can play CF; but there are stats to say he can play a pretty decent OF in general (look up his LF stats from 2005).

Is that not an option?

By Paula

October 10, 2007 6:46 PM | Link to this

I’ll just bet the ones who are pooh-poohing Cameron are the same ones who went ballistic over the Renteria/Marte trade - I believe “rent-a-wreck” is what he was referred to? Guess you were all wrong, huh?

By TennesseePaul

October 10, 2007 6:56 PM | Link to this

Steamboat: Is that not an option? Of course not. Don’t like strikeouts? Well your choice is Ryan Howard or Pete Orr. Play off team membership? Choose between Lofton and Cairo. It’s fire and ice and nothing in between. There is no water that can go under this bridge you are seeking.

Where’s Bob? That guy could really word it better.

By Bubba

October 10, 2007 7:00 PM | Link to this

The last time I was in a Turner Field bathroom, the cleanest thing in there was in my hand.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 7:04 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul, Winn would require the Braves to trade players for him. Cameron would not.

Here are the stats most vital to run creation, AVG/OBP/SLG (keeping in mind the order of importance is OBP, SLG, AVG):

NL CF - .273/.335/.427

ML CF - .272/.337/.420

Cameron overall - .242/.328/.431

Cameron away from Petco - .254/.341/.449

Clearly Cameron is above average. He’s about an average player even if we don’t take into account Petco. The choice is clear if the Braves can’t get Winn thrown into a deal for a pitcher. It’s right here for all to see.

What is the obsession with strikeout total? He struck out 160 times in 651 plate appearances. That’s 491 non-strikeout plate appearances to do good things, which he did.

By Jared

October 10, 2007 7:12 PM | Link to this

While I’m not outright arguing with DOB’s stats, I do think it should be pointed out that most of Escobar’s time as leadoff was in a platoon situation, while most of KJ’s time at leadoff was before a platoon was in place.

That is a very good point. I forgot about that. How many times this past season did Yunel Escobar bat leadoff against a left-handed starting pitcher? When Escobar was leading off, it was while he was being platooned with Kelly Johnson. Whereas when Johnson batted leadoff from the start of the season up until around mid-June, it was against both left and right-handed pitchers.

And it matters too:

Escobar vs. right-handed pitching in 2007:

.303/.367/.444

Escobar vs. left-handed pitching:

.355/.409/.461

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 7:17 PM | Link to this

TennPaul, nobody likes strikeouts, it’s just that strikeout total is not a good measure of strikeout rate for a hitter. What we think of as a lot of strikeouts isn’t that many because it still leaves a player with plenty of non-strikeout plate appearances to avoid outs at a good rate. Does team K total correlate with runs scored? NO. Not unless they are striking out in something like 70 percent of their plate appearances. Same with individual players. It’s pretty logical, if you just think about it.

Also, if you think one player is better than another just because he plays on a better team, you need some serious help. I suppose Mike Lowell was better than Chipper Jones.

By Efrim

October 10, 2007 7:27 PM | Link to this

Coach

Efrim , you have no idea what you are talking about. Renteria is under contract through 2009 , that is two years , not one. Jim Edmonds is under contract through 2008. Apparently you are unaware that the Cardinals have Ryan Ludwick , Skip Schumaker and of course Rick Ankiel , All of whom can play CF. The Cardinals have six players who saw action in the outfield in 2007 and a total of ten on their 40 man roster. The OF is hardly an issue for the Cardinals. The trade I proposed is actually very common and it happens all the time. Does A.J. Pierzynski , Carlos Delgado or Jim Thome ring a bell ? That is three trades or examples and I’m not going to make a list , it’s to long. Trading an established veteran for a group of youngsters with potential is by far the most common trade seen in MLB. Did you already forget what we traded for Mark Teixeira ? The Cardinals would love to have Renteria back and the Braves need a real CF prospect who can compete in spring training and not be a payroll issue.

Sorry I couldn’t respond earlier, way too busy at work. OKAY. When was AJ Pierzynski traded for Liriano, Bonser and Nathan??? Yea, A LONG TIME AGO. Times have changed. Cardinals already have an aging team. Rick Ankiel and Skip Schumacher???? You’re joking right??? Ankiel is nothing more than a 4th outfielder and a RF at best. Rasmus is going to man CF for that team for years to come. Why would the Cardinals make that trade? Renteria is a potential free agent at the end of next season. That option does not have to be exercised, so if he has a down year, he may only be on the team for one year. Only JS is so bold to make deals like the one we just saw for Tex. It’s two fold, Braves have the ability to replenish the system. Other teams don’t, they aren’t as good as the Braves in that respect, that is why JS is NEVER afraid to trade prospects. Jim Edmonds is under contract for ONE YEAR and then you think they are going to hand the job to Ryan Ludwick, Rick Ankiel or Skip Schumacher???

Please someone help Coach, Someone who knows about Prospects. ANYONE OUT THERE!!!! Lew??? Shaun??? You guys gotta help me. Put yourselves in the Cardinals shoes, why would you trade your BEST PROSPECT for Edgar Renteria? You have Colby Rasmus under control for 6 more years. 2 at most for Renteria. This is a cash strapped team as it is. They aren’t getting production from a lot of their high priced talent that are eating up their payroll like Edmonds, Rolen and Carpenter(Tommy John Surgery), they need to save money wherever they can. Good Lord man. This isn’t an Ace they are trading for. It is Edgar Renteria. It ain’t Johan Santana.

On the Braves side of things, We have Jordan Schafer, if were trading Renteria, it should be in a package for a pitcher…..

But I think we should sign Mike Cameron anyways….

Sorry I wasn’t here to help you out Shaun, but I actually have your back on this one. I think Cameron is a solid option for this team.

By Steamboat

October 10, 2007 7:29 PM | Link to this

Shaun, I brought this up the other day - in your postseason predictions on your blog, you referenced pitchers’ ability to strike out batters as a positive for the teams you picked; yet you say batters striking out is not a bad thing.

I’m (honestly) trying to grasp some of this stuff, but really can’t see how a high strikeout rate is a good thing for a pitcher, and not a bad thing for a batter.

I’m flummoxed!

By TennesseePaul

October 10, 2007 7:30 PM | Link to this

Just Winn? That’s all you’ll give me? What about Baldelli? Or Crawford?
C’mon, there has to be more than 2 players out there… I could have sworn I saw 30 teams in the standings. Don’t they all have 25 man rosters and minor league systems?

Just for the record, the rankings, Center Field and Out Field rankings I posted, they were major league rankings. I’d use the splits, home and away, but you know, the whole sample size issue butted its head in and prevented Cameron from qualifying. So I went with his career production… found he was average to Mediocre. And that he was 35. Then I read some where, can’t remember where, but it asserted that players decline after the age of 28. Well, it didn’t look good.

But hey, what’s 7 or 8 million on Mediocrity? If you can’t spend it on that, you can’t spend it on anything…

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 7:31 PM | Link to this

TennPaul, of the ten players that struck out the most this season, seven posted an OBP over .340 and and seven posted a SLG over .460.

We need to rethink our view of strikeout total, folks. Nobody likes strikeouts but high strikout total DOES NOT equal unproductive player.

By Braveheart

October 10, 2007 7:33 PM | Link to this

I like the Jeter comparison but I think Escobar is most like Julio Franco at a similar age 20 years ago.

By TennesseePaul

October 10, 2007 7:35 PM | Link to this

Also, if you think one player is better than another just because he plays on a better team, you need some serious help.

Thanks for that suggestion. I’ll seek help right after I find out where and when I suggested this was what I thought.
Wait a minute, is this your straw man again? How’s he been? Taking a beating I presume.

By Shaun

October 10, 2007 7:37 PM | Link to this

Did you know that Grady Sizemore ranked in the top ten in strikeouts? As did BJ Upton, who had a very good year. It’s not just 50-homer guys that are productive in spite of their strikeouts. Rethink this flawed logic that strikeout total means less production, please folks.

By Braveheart

October 11, 2007 2:29 PM | Link to this

hello

By ppaddy123

October 11, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

testing testing 1,2,3

By mo in the boonies

October 11, 2007 2:40 PM | Link to this

Shaun Rethink this flawed logic that strikeout total means less production, please folks.

Using your logic, then why did the Braves have to get rid of AJ?

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 11, 2007 2:43 PM | Link to this

Hello.

By Lew

October 11, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this

Are we back now?

By ssiscribe

October 11, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this

I guess the Braves/MIB is fixed, just in time to find out what in the hell is going on with “President” Schuerholz.

The Scribe abides.

—30—

By mo in the boonies

October 11, 2007 2:49 PM | Link to this

Waiting for the big news conference with bated breath. Sheurholtz being kicked upstairs is the best thing I’ve heard in months. Only thing better would be, if he took Cox with him.

By Shaun

October 11, 2007 2:55 PM | Link to this

mo in the boonies, don’t see the connection. Braves got rid of Andruw because he is going to be very expensive and more expensive than the production he will likely provide over the length of his next contract. Not sure what that has to do with strikeout total and production.

By Jonathan Schuerholz

October 11, 2007 2:57 PM | Link to this

Ask not for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

By ppaddy123

October 11, 2007 3:04 PM | Link to this

Uh Mo, the Braves got rid of Andruw ‘cause the dude hit.221 and made 13.5 million last year. And now he wants a raise!

By Shaun

October 11, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

mo in the boonies, when Cleveland drops Grady Sizemore because of his strikeout total or the Rays drop BJ Upton or the Phillies drop Ryan Howard or the White Sox drop Jim Thome because of strikeout total, then come back with that argument.

By Big Buck

October 11, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

What’s the matter? Did some of you have to get a life for a few hours?

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

October 11, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

Well, lets hope Frank Wren can do the job. He didn’t do a good job the year he was in Baltimore but some of that was due to their idiot owner, Peter Angelos.

I’ll be very interested to see just how much power Wren will have. Will he be in charge of all personnel decisions or will JS still be pulling the reigns? If Wren does have total control, I will be interested to see what he does. I will also be interested to see how he interracts with Cox. I always got the impression JS acquired the players but had little say in who got to play and who didn’t. I can’t believe that JS always agreed with Cox’s absurd loyalty to certain players. I wonder if Wren will put a stop to that non-sense.

This move could be seamless or could cause some uproar. This will be a very interesting winter.

By Rob

October 11, 2007 3:41 PM | Link to this

Is this a play to get JS away from dealing with Glavine and Texiera/Boras? Is it for “the good of the team?” Now Wren can go to them and say, I’m the guy, come deal with me.

By ssiscribe

October 11, 2007 3:45 PM | Link to this

OK folks, just watched the first few minutes of the press conference. Here’s a little something until the real writers file:

ATLANTA — It’s official — John Schuerholz has been promoted to Braves president.

And no, the longtime Braves’ GM is not leaving the organization he helped to build into a consistent winner.

Kicking off a news conference in Atlanta Thursday afternoon, team chairman and CEO Terry McGuirk said media reports Schuerholz was leaving the organization were wrong.

“Contrary to news reports, Mr. Schuerholz is not departing,” McGuirk said. “He is not moving sideways. I bring you good news. The Atlanta Braves have promoted John Schuerholz to president of the franchise.”

Schuerholz, who has served as Braves’ GM for the past 17 years, joked that “news of my departure is greatly premature.”

“I don’t know where that came from,” Schuerholz said of the initial reports late this morning indicating he was leaving the organization. “I can’t wait for the opportunity to grab this with both hands and make this organization grand.”

“We were a bit alarmed by the reports John had left,” McGuirk added.

Schuerholz said he believes this move strengthens the organization and invigorates to him personally.

“It lifts my spirits,” said the 67-year-old, who helped lead the Braves to 14 consecutive division titles and the 1995 World Series crown. “It makes me enthusiastic toward this organization and what we can build upon.”

Wren, who is being promoted to GM, has been a part of every move the Braves have made, Schuerholz said.

“Frank will be the general manager; he will make the decisions about player decisions,” said Schuerholz, adding that he expects to be nothing more than a “mentor and sounding board” for Wren.

“He knows and values the good work of the many good people in our baseball organization,” Schuerholz said.

Wren has spent the past seven years by Schuerholz’s side. He served as GM in Baltimore in 1999.

“There is a lot to be energized about,” Wren said. “I’m definitely energized by this opportunity.”

By JT

October 11, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

Hey, Where are they going to show the Press Conference??? Espn, Fox, TBS, whereeeeeee??????

By Jared

October 11, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

Waiting for the big news conference with bated breath. Sheurholtz being kicked upstairs is the best thing I’ve heard in months.

Yeah, Schuerholz and Cox are terrible. No team wishes they could have either one of those two at all. Neither will be in the hall of fame also.

One word: perspective.

By Edgar

October 11, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

Hey ssiscribe Where did you watch the Press Conference?

By Big Buck

October 11, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this

This blog has been “promoted” to Asst GM, so continue your good work in telling Frank Wren what he should do. I’m sure he will listen with the same interest given to you by JS.

By Baseball Fanatic (Go Braves!)

October 11, 2007 4:09 PM | Link to this

Well we were right. JS did make an unexpected move…

By ssiscribe

October 11, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

Edgar: Watched it online on one of the Atlanta TV station’s Web sites. AJC has a story now with quotes from the press conference.

Realized I made a couple of grammatical errors in my post above; was trying to knock something out from the beginning to get it on here for most of you who I assume didn’t see the conference.

The Scribe abides.

—30—

By Steve from OH

October 11, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this

Wow…totally didn’t see this coming (at least this soon).

I do like this move, though. I think that it gives JS more power over the organization, which of course will benefit us. And I’m sure Wren is a capable replacement—after all, he’s been handling the contract negotiations for a few years now (I read it somewhere, can’t quite remember exactly where though). At least payroll’s going up though!

Go Braves!

By Steve from OH

October 11, 2007 4:20 PM | Link to this

The press conference was on foxsports.com. They might still have it up (take that back, they probably do have it up).

By Buffalo NY Braves fan

October 11, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this

Scribe,

thanks for posting the news, some of us are out of the region and stuck at work.

By Choppinmama

October 11, 2007 4:30 PM | Link to this

“Choppin’ to blog, Choppin’ to blog. Hello?? Come in………”

DOB: Waiting patiently for ya’, son. Down here on the coast I’m waiting with baited breath for your new blog.

By ssiscribe

October 11, 2007 4:32 PM | Link to this

Buffalo: My pleasure. Got done with work early and had a few minutes to listen.

Just tell the Sabers to take it easy on the Thrashers tonight up there (although both teams need a win).

—30—

By Edgar

October 11, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

Hey Scribe do you know ESPECIFICALLY the website of the Station??? If not where else is it??

By uga-brave

October 11, 2007 4:41 PM | Link to this

me thinks he is somewhat sick of the corporate hierachy, you know the one where they tell you one thing and do another. now he wil never say that in public but i think that is a major reason

By Buffalo NY Braves fan

October 11, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this

Scribe, I used to intern with the Sabres farm club up here, so I know all of the young guns fairly well. I try to root for them when I can, but I’m really a Flyers fan (yes I admit it)

Good luck to the Thrashers tonight, I just like to see good hockey.

By mo in the boonies

October 11, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this

Shaun, you never mentioned anything about salary in your statement. Just said: Rethink this flawed logic that strike out totals means less production. If that statement applies to Cameron, who is no where as good as Andruw in centerfield, then it also applies to Andruw. If he had hit more home runs, or more RBI’s than he did, he would have been signed for whatever he wanted, so don’t kid yourself that the money was the only problem. They aren’t worried about the money for Texeira, and he is going to cost a lot more than Andruw would have. And as far as I’m concerned, Texiera hasn’t proved to me that he is a Gold Glove player for the Braves. I don’t care what he did before he came to Atlanta.

ppdaddy How do you know what Andruw would have signed for? Schuerholtz never gave him a chance to say what he might accept to stay with the Braves. As a matter of fact, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find out that one of the reasons why Liberty decided to “kick Schuerholtz upstairs” had something to do with his stubbornness to deal with anyone who has Boras as an agent. (Looking down the road at the Texiera negotiations.)

Jared How many teams have offered jobs to Cox and Schuerholtz ? Name them, and then I’ll believe the terrible duo are so much in demand around the leagues.

By ChrisinPA

October 11, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this

I can see one real big benefit of Wren becoming the GM, and i wish I could get DOB’s thoughts on this…

Maybe Wren will allow certain players to have “no-trade clauses” in their contracts, and, in essence, opening up a greater possibility of resigning Tex to a long term deal? I liked the idea of no “no-trade” that JS had in place during his tenure, but I would also like to see some of the better players that pass through Atlanta get these, if it increases the likelihood of players signing, staying, etc. And I think JS staying with the club will regulate WHO gets those contracts and who does not…in other words, I don’t think it would be a blanket turn-over.

Just my $.02, in hopes we can get Tex signed long-term!

By Savannah Guy

October 11, 2007 5:03 PM | Link to this

Excellent report Scribe. Real pro. Thanks.

I first posted this last night. For some reason it didn’t appear when the blog restarted today. Hmmm…

Possibilities For Yesterday’s Sudden Blog Stoppage

1) All hotstove issues were sorted out and finished

2) All world problems were solved

3) At 7:37 the earth stopped rotating on it’s axis

4) Liberty just announced massive Braves payroll cut

5) Mass blogger suicide due to massive payroll cut

6) AJC just announced payroll cut

7) DOB got miffed at rude blogger and pulled the plug

8) TBS playoff habit, now Everybody loves Raymond

9) Wednesday, “hump day” and everyone was, uh…

10) Everyone left to research Cameron and Rowand

11) Boog took offense to “sampling” commentary

12) 3000 mentions of Cameron caused shutdown

13) AJC-IT Dept. went to dinner, stopped at Hooters

14) Thermo nuclear magnetic interference

15) Global warming must be blamed somehow

16) Shaun coup d’état

By EL SUPREMO

October 11, 2007 5:11 PM | Link to this

Down here on the coast I’m waiting with baited breath

PLEASE USE MOUTHWASH!

By Tanyon and Kelly

October 11, 2007 5:17 PM | Link to this

Savannah Guy yoo hoo we’re back you forgot reason 17: savannah guy blogorrhea

hey did you really kill that old canadian lady and try to make it look like an alligator attack

By Lew

October 11, 2007 5:20 PM | Link to this

How appropriate is this? The blog is down for nineteen hours, it comes back up after Schuerholz is made President of the Team as well as Frank Wren becoming the new GM and Shaun is still talking about strikeout totals.

By Lew

October 11, 2007 5:24 PM | Link to this

Tanyon and Kelly-Shaun’s cross dressing, evil alter personalities.

By Mike

October 11, 2007 5:32 PM | Link to this

Why is it when something huge happens that DOB takes so long to give us his opinions? Maybe its just to make sure all the facts are straight We need your thoughts Dave. Im in LA and when I woke up this morning and saw that JS had resigned I thought it was a hoax. Did JS really resign on his own? Media liberty we got two words for you: s**k *t

By Tanyon and Kelly

October 11, 2007 5:40 PM | Link to this

hey lew are you like old enough to be our great grandfather

you like to draw so draw your shades it’s nappy time

By Tanyon and Kelly

October 11, 2007 5:48 PM | Link to this

hey Shaun help us with algebra solve 5x + 1 = 13 - x

By Shaun

October 11, 2007 5:53 PM | Link to this

By mo in the boonies, you’re right, money wasn’t the only problem with Andruw. The problem is his production is not going to be worth, to the Braves, what he’s likely to produce, especially towards the end of his next contract.

If you are talking about Andruw’s season last year, it’s exactly right to say strikeout total didn’t mean less production. The rate at which Andruw made outs and accrued bases was the problem. He had 521 non-strikeout plate appearances but he didn’t do well enough in those plate appearances, which is the primary reason he wasn’t productive.

And I disagree with your assertion that the Braves “aren’t worried” about the money it will take to sign Teixeira. I’m sure that concerns them greatly, as it should.

By Shaun

October 11, 2007 5:57 PM | Link to this

Not trying to advertise, only because it is relevant to our discussion, I’ve posted a detailed reason how we got to this point with a stat—batting average—that is not the best way to measure the success and failure of a major league hitter.

By Shaun

October 11, 2007 6:03 PM | Link to this

Tanyon and Kelly, my motivation on this blog is not about statistics and numbers. It’s about interpreting reality rationally and via evidence instead of relying on tradition or people that seem smarter than you or things that seem to make sense or mine and your’s and other’s desires of what we want to be true.

By Lew

October 11, 2007 6:05 PM | Link to this

Tanyon and Kelly-Afraid I’m not that old, just wise-sometimes a wise @$$. Wouldn’t you like to grow older and learn wisdom, too?

By Tanyon and Kelly

October 11, 2007 6:11 PM | Link to this

Shaun with your ceaseless recitation of stats and your wonkish persistence you must strike out a lot huh what do you talk about at parties

By Lew

October 11, 2007 6:15 PM | Link to this

Rational Reality Interpretation. I suppose it does have a certain ring to it. Can it be done without original thought, though.

By Tanyon & Kelly

October 11, 2007 6:19 PM | Link to this

We are Uncle Stinky’s favorite nieces, or nephews, depending on how you hold us.

By Shaun

October 11, 2007 6:27 PM | Link to this

Lew, is it original to rely on stats simply because of tradition? Is it original to rely on stats that tell you nothing about run creation? Is it original to rely on stats that just tell you a player was in a good lineup often? If so, I’ll take being unoriginal any day.

By Lew

October 11, 2007 6:27 PM | Link to this

Now Girls-Shouldn’t you be off text messaging your Uncle or something? Or maybe your BFF? Shouldn’t be messing with we old men. You’ll give us all coronaries or something. Our old hearts just can’t deal with you youngun’s

By Shaun

October 11, 2007 6:33 PM | Link to this

It’s much better to interpret reality on the basis of false premises, huh, Lew?

It’s great to assume that a player is the MVP simply because he racks up counting stats that have little to do with creating runs instead of even acknowledging a few stats that indicate a player was good at creating runs for his team.

It’s great to assume that a player is bad because a stat that told you a lot about a player in the late 1800s doesn’t look impressive.

It’s great to assume that the way a player makes an out is indicative of how valuable a hitter he is and to ignore how often he does not make an out.

It’s great to assume that every ballpark is the same and that every hitter’s numbers will look the same no matter what park they play in.

If making these assumptions makes you original, I want no part of originality.

By Tanyon and Kelly

October 11, 2007 6:36 PM | Link to this

hey someone is copping our id must be a creepy perv hmmm obsessed with stinky like everyone is stinky who is the one who is always paranoid about stinky must be jimmy pseudo journalist faux ugandan middle age creepmeister

and why do some of you guys think we’re boys do you only like boys someone better tell Chris Hansen

By Tanyon & Kelly

October 11, 2007 6:48 PM | Link to this

Who thinks we are boys, or girls. Both are humans.

By Bob, Journalist

October 11, 2007 6:53 PM | Link to this

My motivation on this blog is about interpreting reality rationally and via evidence instead of relying on tradition or people that seem smarter than you or things that seem to make sense or mine and your’s and other’s desires of what we want to be true … would someone better than I please explain the above … Gunga Din, perhaps?

I seriously don’t understand it … of course, it probably depends on who and how smart “you” is … and no, I don’t purport to know the definition of your’s or other’s either.

By Tanyon & Kelly

October 11, 2007 6:54 PM | Link to this

Notice how when we feel “threatened”, we go on the attack against jjs. That’s what Uncle Stinky taught us.

By Tanyon & Kelly

October 11, 2007 6:59 PM | Link to this

Hey, Uncle Stinky isn’t it poetic justice when someone posts under one of your many borrowed names, and you don’t know which one of your 1000 “enemies” it is? I love it!!!

By &

October 11, 2007 7:02 PM | Link to this

i am a glyph

& is my name and my likeness

a middle-aged man

in profile looking to the left

with a tiny head

and a middle-aged spread

typing on the computer all day

saying nothing

By Lew

October 11, 2007 7:07 PM | Link to this

Oh The Humanity-Shaun wants no part of me. I’m crushed. I wallow in sorrow. I grieve. This after he told me last week he was tired of the argument. I will go think originally on the subject. Does anyone have any relevant statistics on rejection by Shaun? Would the stats be different if I were posting from Philadelphia? Would they change if I blogged on a weaker computer or had DSL instead of high speed cable? Would the altitude of Denver change my perception of Reality? Am I blinded by the brilliant foliage in the Vermont Mountains?

I should have known. I post a rhetorical, theoretical question to Shaun and he replies with Shaunisms on strikeout totals and ballpark adjustments, and 1800’s ballplayer’s statistics, but never answered my question. Can you Rationally Interpret Reality without utilizing original thought? Could someone NOT using these stats perhaps come up with a quite different Rational Interpretation of Reality, ever bit as valid, by thinking originally instead of using arcane formulas and theoretical bovine excrement? How in the universe did I ever determine in the days of wayward youth that Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays was a great player without adjusting for ballpark? How did I ever enjoy Jim Bunning’s Perfect Game in 64, without worrying whether or not the Mets had winning records against first place teams while playing day games on natural turf? How did I ever enjoy watching a young Pete Rose run out bases on balls without worrying about how he made an out?

Shaun-If you would really read what I say, instead of getting your accountant’s panties in a bunch, you would realize that I just enjoy giving you a hard time. I sincerely doubt that other than the Ryan Howard MVP discussion last season (which you were totally wrong about, BTW), that I have ever argued your strikeout total crap , nor have I ever said anything about players from the 1800’s-not sure I could name any of them besides Hoss Radbourne, who, for all I know, played in 1902. It’s just fun giving you grief. It gets you all riled up. I like to ruffle your unoriginal complacency and send you scurrying to your manuals. And one more thing-I wondered well before you were even born whether or not Mays would have hit 800 HR’s if the Giants had stayed in New York and he hit for his entire career at the Polo Grounds. We just called it a short left field line. I guess they hadn’t coined the Adjustment for Ballpark stat or come up with an arcane formula.

By Tanyon & Kelly

October 11, 2007 7:12 PM | Link to this

Dear By & and Stinky, We still know who you are and learn the meaning of “glyph”. It may work in your “poetry” but not in reality.

By Tanyon & Kelly

October 11, 2007 7:16 PM | Link to this

Shut up Lew. And did you wash your hands after using your pencil? :o)

By journalist jimmy smith

October 11, 2007 7:17 PM | Link to this

journalist is away and finds journalist the topic of several posts. why blog about jimmy smith? do stinky and the stinkettes not know that homeboy upstairs has been kicked upstairs? oh, the humanity! already upstairs. must be in the upper deck by now. and will homeboy have to climb the ramp with dob to get to the new office? and dob, what happened to dob’s blog? stinky overnight, perhaps? meltdown? boredown?

By Lew

October 11, 2007 7:26 PM | Link to this

Now , Now Tanyon and Kelly-16 year old cross dressing girls shouldn’t even concern themselves with my pencil. It’s just not lady like.

By Tanyon & Kelly

October 11, 2007 7:34 PM | Link to this

Mr. Lew, We apologize.

By Lew

October 11, 2007 7:36 PM | Link to this

Well-Maybe I should go sharpen my pencil before I get accused of corrupting 16 year olds. Easy on the Mojitos, Girls. Be gentle with the denizens. I’ve got to go watch Law and Order reruns until I go to bed. We old folks need our rest, after all. Play nice.

By Shaun

October 11, 2007 7:41 PM | Link to this

Lew, you can rationally interpret reality by viewing what is instead of what you wish reality were or what tradition has guided you towards. I don’t really think about being unoriginal or original or whatever. I simply just try to find the truth. Often times guidance from other people’s research may lead me there, often times I can see it for myself. It doesn’t matter as long as I find truth or get as close to it as possible. In fact, I think there something to be said for listening and reading people whose brains work different from your own and who have done more than you to try to get as many perspectives as possible. But maybe that’s just me. See, I have no respect for those sportswriters who criticize sabermetrics and then say things like, “I don’t know what VORP is and I don’t care.” Well, if you don’t know and don’t care about sabermetric studies, why in the world would you criticize. Why don’t you at least look into it a little bit and see if the ideas make sense? It’s not about being unoriginal or relying on other people to form your opinions. It’s about getting as many perspectives on baseball as you possibly can, and in my opinion that is better than just relying on my brain alone or relying only on my perspective and experiences. In fact, that seems pretty dangerous to me.

By Tanyon and Kelly

October 11, 2007 7:44 PM | Link to this

hey shaun what’s wrong with just watching the game and seeing who plays good and who doesn’t

besides we think the braves should pay less attention to numbers - like who cares about O-P-S-M-V-P or whatever - and just get the most athletic hunky guys and not all the fat middle-aged relief pitchers they keep getting

david justice is the cutest all-time brave ever halle berry thought so too followed by mark derosa who is much cuter than jeff francoeur there is something a little off about that guy and mcann is really cute for a fat guy but he needs to lose weight before he gets a heart attack

By Tyler

October 11, 2007 7:50 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

You are right on strikeout totals. There are plenty of plate appearances that they don’t strike out to be productive. However, a player with less strikeout totals puts the ball in play more which is better than a strikeout every time. Outs can be very productive, like a hit and run play, an RBI groundout, or advancing a runner. Willie Harris had a .349 OBP but does that mean he is better than Cameron because it is the “modern day” batting average? No, because his stats don’t show everything. He was flat out awful for the second half, but stats don’t show that.

Anyway, on the Cameron issue. He’s not great, but he would do good enough. Problem is, we can probably find someone as “productive” or close to it for a lot cheaper.

By Tanyon and Kelly

October 11, 2007 7:51 PM | Link to this

the & imposter who is impersonating us keeps it up and proves he is nothing but a creepy perv who chews on pencils

By Tanyon Sturtze & Kelly Johnson

October 11, 2007 7:51 PM | Link to this

tanyon sturtze and kelly johnson are so darn naughty.

By Tomas

October 11, 2007 7:51 PM | Link to this

If the Athletics really mentioned Haren to be a trade bait they must really be desperate. He is a really good pitcher, of all the names I’ve heard this last to weeks of possible pitcher he is the best. For sure they would asked for Renteria, and a prospect……

Now Tom Glavine….. He is a good pitcher but no way I give him 8 million per year, if he really wants to be in Atlanta, he’ll have to settle for 6-7 million. He is 40.

If we do trade Renteria for a good starting pitcher like Haren (not Lowry or Joe Blanton) then we can use that money and sign Mike Cameron to a one year deal worth 8 million with a team option.

Apart from Haren I also heard another powerful ace is on the trade market. Johan Santana is available, the problem is he wont be cheap (of course not he is the best pitcher in Baseball right now), so Im guessing theres no chance the Braves will consider him.

By Tomas

October 11, 2007 7:58 PM | Link to this

When I say Johan wont come cheap I’m not refering to money, but to a lot of good talent, and it would only be for 1 year, because he is a free agent after the 2008 season, and he will comand a very similar deal to what A-rod is getting, at least his agent isn’t Scott Boras.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

October 11, 2007 8:03 PM | Link to this

Yes T&K but he’s a rich fat guy and that covers a lot of warts…..

Alas, another Wurlitzer worth post lost in cyber space. I really need to just commit my thoughts to paper like a normal human being and mail it in…. Too bad, I don’t feel like espousing all that wisdom again, besides, with a new GM none of it works the same….

Question…. What are the responsibilities of the president of the franchise? Cut payroll? Approve trades? Be in charge of bake sales? Someone help me out here….

By Tanyon and Kelly

October 11, 2007 8:18 PM | Link to this

ok this is serious the real reason we came on the blog today is because we have a very important message for the new braves general manager

kelly found out on the internet that according to the aztecs or mayans -whoever - who are like the ancient mexicans - the world will come to an end in december of the year 2012 and only a few people will survive

so the braves should hedge their bets and not give out any contracts that last beyond the 2012 season and spend like crazy now so that we can win one more world series before 2012 we are very surpised that oscar villareal has not tried to warn the braves about this yet

By Wayne in Utah

October 11, 2007 8:50 PM | Link to this

If Frank Wren is a JS disciple, then I am all for this move by the Braves.

Can somebody tell me what is up with Shaun? Shaun, I tried to read some of your recent posts, but my simple mind could not comprehend. I normally enjoy your interaction, but I see that you are in the “deep water” tonight. Take a chill pill, my friend.

Lew, are you egging Shaun on tonight?

Baseball Question: Who do you folks like in the ALCS and NLCS? Also, who will win the WS?

My predictions: Rockies over the D’backs, Indians over the Sox. Rockies win it all!

By Tomas

October 11, 2007 8:55 PM | Link to this

Adding to the Braves trade baits, Chuck James falls into that category…

• Edgar Renteria or Yunel Escobar
• Kelly Johnson
• Chuck James

By Wayne in Utah

October 11, 2007 8:57 PM | Link to this

I liked Tony Gwynn a lot more before I had to listen to his voice this much. Maybe it will grow on me???

By StinkyJones

October 11, 2007 8:59 PM | Link to this

Killing the blog - one post at a time.

By Julia

October 11, 2007 9:13 PM | Link to this

Talking Stinky - I left a SHRIMP SAMMICH outdoors this afternoon. I was having so much fun playing Goofy Golf that I lay that SHRIMP SAMMICH down boys, and forgot to pick it back up until well past the dinosaur. When I got back to the little windmill that SHRIMP SAMMICH was r-i-p-e! I have never seen so many Goofy Golf courses in one place! This is a highly refined and culturally diverse town and I hear there may be a new radio personality coming here soon. They were polishing the dinosaur’s neck today but moved to let me p-l-a-y through. That is so clever *broadcasting from the dinosaur neck, beachside. Catchy promo, don’t you think? Well, to each his own POOCH.

By StinkyJones one of the Jones Boys

October 11, 2007 9:18 PM | Link to this

Stinky, get over yourself. You see journalists everywhere. How’s the little lady? Moved out yet?

By StinkyJones

October 11, 2007 9:29 PM | Link to this

Stinky, did you leave the trailer before you read my post?

By Lew

October 11, 2007 9:29 PM | Link to this

Wayne In Utah-It’s an exercise in visualization, Dude-something we artists do upon occasion. It’s so much fun imagining Shaun (I figure he looks like Bob Crachitt with those elastic bands holding his shirt sleeves out of the ink well) with foam dripping out of the corners of his mouth, like the rabid accountant he probably is.

By ncscoots

October 11, 2007 9:34 PM | Link to this

Wayne, I’m afraid Gwynn, Ripken, and Frank Thomas (!) prove once again that a man’s gotta know his limitations. Most excellent ballplayers all, and truly, completely, righteously abysmal as broadcasters. Heavyweight-champeen-of-the-world bad.

Add in Stockton, who calls baseball exactly the same way he calls football, and the so-far-woefully-unprepared broadcasts aired, and TBS has not exactly shone in their first attempt at being a national network.

But, hey, it’s tough stepping up to the bigs, so let’s just say TBS has a high ceiling, LOL. Lots of room for improvement.

But that Tony, have mercy :-). Nails on a chalkboard will grow on me before that voice will.

By StinkyJones

October 11, 2007 9:38 PM | Link to this

Stinky, post you’re e-mail address and I will send you greetings. Do better than last time though - use a real address. Here’s you’re chance to find out who StinkyJones really is.

Crabmeat.

By David O'Brien

October 11, 2007 9:42 PM | Link to this

Choppinmama, others: All the sports blogs were down, inoperable, from 7:30 last night until sometime this afternoon.

When I had time this morning, after first getting the story posted, I would’ve posted an opinion regarding Frank. But the blog wasn’t working then, and by 2 p.m. or so I was busy doing radio interviews and making calls to folks for quotes, trying to get some stuff in the can before the 3:30 p.m. press conference. Didn’t even know the blog was back up.

After the press conference, went up to the pressbox at Turner Field to write (no sense fighting traffic) and didn’t start until after 5, didn’t finish with write-through until nearly 8 p.m., after getting a callback from Bobby, etc.

Got home in time to watch the start of the baseball game.

Now I check the blog and see boring drivel from you-know-who, and I’m too tired and want to hang out with my girlfriend too much to deal with that total, unmitigated disaster of a pet-hating human being (the one whose six-letter screen name begins with S), much as I’d like to correspond with the rest of you.

So we’re gonna watch the game and then Office, and I’ll write a new blog tomorrow.

By Lew

October 11, 2007 9:43 PM | Link to this

Tony Gwynn DOES sound like Mr. Haney. I’ve been wondering who that voice reminded me of.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 11, 2007 9:52 PM | Link to this

journalist bob and other journalists: someone is disparaging journalists on this blog. not saying who, but journalists probably already know.

and congratulations to dob! jimmy smith was told by a cox journalist that best of cox winners won $1,000. wonder if dob will share any of that with the regulars here? maybe a few cheese samplers at christmas? (check costco for cheese sampler deals.)

and whither carroll rogers? must come to the blog more often.

now, baseball … cubbie is broadcasting again tonight.

By Wayne in Utah

October 11, 2007 9:55 PM | Link to this

Looks like the Rox are doing well, so I will sign off for the night.

By EL SUPREMO

October 11, 2007 9:58 PM | Link to this

Remember I told you when you started…

the guys who last in this business are the guys who fly straight low-key, quiet.

And the guys who want it all… chicas, champagne, flash …they don’t last.

By David O'Brien

October 11, 2007 10:00 PM | Link to this

Actually, he does sound like Mr. Haney….

By the way, someone asked about winter-ball and a few guys like Aybar and Thorman, etc:

Aybar’s gonna play in the Dominican league, B. Jones, Thorman and Manny Acosta in Mexico, G. Blanco, Prado and Bennett in Venezeula, Schafer in Arizona Fall League.

That’s just a partial list, but I’ll throw them and others into the blog tomorrow

By chrisklob

October 11, 2007 10:06 PM | Link to this

Journalist Jimmy Smith, rumor has it that the alligator that killed the old lady yesterday in Savannah was a wild, crazed maneater? Has Journalist Savannah Guy posted a report regarding this rabid reptile?

By Shaun

October 11, 2007 10:09 PM | Link to this

the one whose six-letter screen name begins with S

Stinky?

By Stinky

October 11, 2007 10:14 PM | Link to this

Good luck to Thor. I like country-strong firstbasemen and hope he returns breathing f!re and sh!++!ng iron.

Could DOB please take pictures of Mitch Albom and his ears and send them to Lew.

By Stinky

October 11, 2007 10:26 PM | Link to this

Actually, he does sound like Mr. Haney…

Finally, DOB recognizes Stinky’s wisdom.

Shaun, more grovelling.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 11, 2007 10:26 PM | Link to this

too much stinky tonight. journalist out.

By phillipfulmer

October 11, 2007 10:27 PM | Link to this

I think Ernie Johnson Jr. looks like the old cartoon guy Hong Kong Phooey.

By StinkyJones

October 11, 2007 10:34 PM | Link to this

Surprise, Surprise! That’s what Gomer Pyle would say about Stinky not giving us an e-mail address. Imagine the relief on this blog if he would e-mail instead of post here. Bulk mail has never sounded so good. Stinky has a face only a pet could love. Oh, wait a minute - animals hate him. A meltdown is imminent. Maybe tonight?

By Savannah Guy

October 11, 2007 10:42 PM | Link to this

(So many trolls on tonight I’ll just lob a too-long post into the mix without much guilt)

Truth, beauty, beauty, truth. That is all ye know and all ye need to know.

Yes, but in baseball blogs, you need to add music, BBQ, poetry, comedy, art, science and stats to equal beauty and truth. Pardon me while I get this out. There’s more room out there than there is in here. Sometimes…giving a little not so subtle, sincere advice to another is truth and a favor if taken to heart.

So where do stats fit into beauty and truth? They certainly deserve a seat at the table of reason and logic, yet as we have all seen right here on this forum: so often rational, well-rounded, creative and intuitive thought will not inspire the x’s and o’s or the abacus minders. Some see beautiful, lush grass, while others see the amount of fertilizer required per square foot. Some see the Green Monster as the unique icon of a classic ballpark; some see it only as a big wall…an imperfect obstacle of awkward length and unusual height that hinders a comparative playing field of home run analysis.

Stats give us a fair portion of performance…an inhuman calculated measure of events that have taken place, yet they are so seldom interpreted with an appropriate balance of human factors (everything except metrics). The aesthetics of the game and the unflappable, clutch, competitive spirit never show up in the statistician’s equation…only numbers. To drive a part-time or pseudo statistician nuts just ask them to account for prevailing wind in each game that is played at each park throughout a player’s history.

Why not? If you look at outfield distance to measure performance, why not relevant, pertinent weather conditions that effect ball flight and every other aspect of an individual or teams stats. How about errors made at dusk or errors made while attempting the impossible catch or an error made while injured or an error made on a wet field? The asterisks would be too many to count. That’s science.

Truth is, stats don’t lie…it’s just that they are limited. More limiting to truth is the inability of those collecting facts, developing sound analysis around them and presenting an articulate and balanced theory…or point. History and performance can be skewed according to the selection of information, the context in which it is presented, the bias or sophistication of the researcher and the balanced presentation. Research and objectivity is not only a science, it is an art.

So, (note transition here) why does DOB have a successful baseball blog that is sustainable? I’ll venture here that it’s because he understands the value, balance and context of stats with the aesthetic and human side of the game. Oh, and he just happens to have the personality, news gathering and writing ability and passion for other interests (music, movies and other real world stuff) to attract interest and thus compel hard-core baseball aficionados and casual Braves fans alike want to hang out with him and hear what he and his denizens have to say. Most can learn stats and regurgitate them, but you can’t find those other attributes often. That’s art and science.

Therefore, my advice to those that may want to start (or have started) their own blog: get up, get out, make friends and get a life outside of the work, the web sites and the books. Then, when you do blog, you may have a chance of achieving balance, context, and personality. Then, who knows, you may actually bring something enjoyable to the game yourself. It ain’t just the stats and the postured, too old for weird-I’m-a-pro-baseball-card-collector-horn-on-bicycle-handlebar type attitude. No names here…but if the shoe fits. Just take the advice.

Self made blogmeisters should always remember: The true, unmistakable sign of a leader is that they have followers.

Peace. Truth. (beauty will follow)

By Shaun

October 11, 2007 10:42 PM | Link to this

Rockies will win this series because of pitching and defense. Beating Webb tonight could mean a sweep.

By ToTellTheTruth

October 11, 2007 10:53 PM | Link to this

To tell the truth—-I could put up with that imbecile stinky all day long—-rather than 5 minutes listening to that ego-maniacal, monotone drone nerd Shaun—-talk about killing the blog!

To top it off—-I thought this was DOB’s blog—-evidently, I thought wrong—-Shaun said he started a blog, and this is it!

I wonder how long AJC is going to allow Shaun to hijack this blog?

Shaun is here all the damn time!

Shaun is killing this blog!!—-not little stinky.

By Savannah Guy

October 11, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this

Chris Hey Cuz. Sorry ‘bout that novel I just posted. Trouble is, the one that should take the advice won’t read it anyway but I feel better. Whatever…

The gator attack…horrible stuff. It happened in an upscale island gated community just across the river from where I live. As the crow flies about 2 miles. Damn critter was caught and killed finally. Strange event…usually they get dogs and you don’t hear about it but this time I think they’ll clear out all the ponds. An 83 year old lady…God rest her soul.

By David O'Brien

October 11, 2007 11:02 PM | Link to this

I think D-Backs will pull one out along the way, but yes, having Webb lose the opener is a very, very bad start. Five-game series, tops.

Is this utterly amazing, how hot the Rockies are and have been now for nearly a month?

And if they make it to the World Series, they’ll unquestionably hold the distinction of having the worst uniforms in the history of the Fall Classic.

Those unis are straight-up Star Trek, with the goofy trim on the vests that looks like it rises up above the shoulders. I love the traditional vests a few teams have worn in recent years, but these things … yikes. Just hideous.

Then again, if I’m the Rockies and have been as hot as they’ve been in them, I’d wear them every game, home and away, until they’re eliminated from the postseason.

By Shaun

October 11, 2007 11:02 PM | Link to this

Savannah Guy, nice post. But stats do “take into account” everything: If the wind knocks down a homer it’s going to be one less homer in the stat book.

I see your point but I think many misunderstand how I view stats, but obviously folks want to interpret me how they want to.

…anyway, can’t believe what’s going on in Arizona. You expect this from New York or Philadelphia or from the folks they pulled off the street in Atlanta during an ESPN town hall meeting about Michael Vick.

By chrisklob

October 11, 2007 11:04 PM | Link to this

SG, nicely put. There has been way too much talk about stats and their values and meanings the past few days. Stats are like Knob Creek; they’re great if consumed in moderation. Too much, and you just wind up with a headache and a confused look on your face.

why does DOB have a successful baseball blog that is sustainable?

I would argue that while the number of “hits” lately has been impressive the quality of this blog has severely diminished since the end of the season. I don’t know if we’re not getting enough of “DOB the Enforcer” here lately or if this is an annual event where the ghouls and goblins come out around Halloween or what but I can tell you that this blog has NOT been as successful lately as it could be, and should be. Too many trolls and jackals allowed to roam freely, poisoning the freedom allowed to us by this formerly wonderful blogosphere.

Have you noticed the absence of or diminished appearances of many of the regular, esteemed bloggers here? I have. What has happened here is sad and pathetic. I hope that there is a plan to right things before they run completely out of control.

By Herman (The Baseball Expert)

October 11, 2007 11:11 PM | Link to this

Where is my partner Mr. Schwinn? We were going to start our very own blog and be very great at it too and everyone would want to blog with us too cause we know everything about baseball and all other sports too. Shaun is too big now to partner with us so I guess it’s up to me and you my partner Mr. Schwinn. Oh - - Mr. Schwinn?

By TennesseePaul

October 11, 2007 11:18 PM | Link to this

Those unis are straight-up Star Trek

That one made me laugh. Good stuff DOB.

Just watching the game and listening to yet another brilliant album from Radiohead. Can’t wait until a few days after or on Dec 3rd for the box disc to arrive.

By chrisklob

October 11, 2007 11:26 PM | Link to this

SG, what’s up my friend. That alligator attack was very odd. They don’t attack humans very often. We had a similar attack here recently. Twelve foot gator attacked a guy snorkeling in a fresh water lake and took his arm off at the shoulder. He survived, but only because when he stumbled to shore he happened upon a group of ER nurses having a retreat. They knew exactly what to do and saved his life.

But stats do “take into account” everything: If the wind knocks down a homer it’s going to be one less homer in the stat book.

Apparently he doesn’t get it. Stats aren’t bad. Stat heads aren’t inherently bad either. But too much statistical analysis is, in my opinion. Over-analysis of the game strips it of its natural beauty. It’s like over-analyzing a super model. The overall package is beautiful but upon closer review (or too close review) you notice that her knees are too sharp, her nose is too big and she has pointy ears. Take the package, the whole package for what it is and enjoy it.

The experience of going to a game, either major league or minor league, is unequalled in my opinion. The beautiful green grass, blue sky, the cries of the hot dog vendor, the smell of popcorn, the crack of the bat. There’s a lot of beauty in that to me. And while stats can tell us a lot about what happened in the past, it can’t accurately predict what is going to happen in the next play. A live baseball game is the ultimate unscripted reality show. You really don’t know what is going to happen next. Will the batter strike out? Will he hit a home run? We don’t know until it happens and that is the allure for me, not listening to a bunch of stat heads quibbling about the value of a strikeout or whatever.

By ToTellTheTruth

October 11, 2007 11:33 PM | Link to this

To tell the truth—-this fellow chrisklob said the following—-“Too many trolls and jackals allowed to roam freely, poisoning the FREEDOM allowed US by this formerly wonderful blogosphere.”

Well to tell the truth Mr. klob—-trolls and jackals are afforded the very same FREEDOM in this country to roam just as freely as those you refer to as us—-and I would suspect that those very same trolls and jackals are just as tired of you as you are of them.

Also, when did being esteemed have anything to do with blogging on a free AJC sports site?—-Mr. klob?

StinkyJones—-why would you be so certain that no one except Stinky would attack this never ending bore Shaun? I’ll assure you that I am not Stinky. At least this Stinky character brings a somewhat human element to this blog—-Shaun is killing it!

Communism is a failed ideology—-so don’t attempt it here!

By Shaun

October 11, 2007 11:41 PM | Link to this

chrisklob, I understand. But again, some just want to believe that I “use” stats inappropriately without actually knowing my view of the role of stats or how I actually use them.

I agree, the game is beautiful. And this time of year is great because for the most part there is no way to predict it or analyze it. Best team may or may not win.

Also, it’s funny that folks criticize me for stats when those same folks are fond of using stats (many of which are truly useless) to show why this player deserves the MVP or that player is unproductive.

By flbravesgirl

October 11, 2007 11:42 PM | Link to this

Sav. Guy, I liked your list of possible reasons for the shutdown. I figured Shaun had just overloaded the circuits or something.

chrisklob, I agree, it used to be more fun here. Wish some of our friends would rejoin us but I understand why they don’t. The few comments I post these days always seem to get lost in the cacophony of arguing & insults. Makes me wonder why I bothered, but I hate to give up on the blog entirely.

By Savannah Guy

October 11, 2007 11:44 PM | Link to this

“If the wind knocks down a homer it’s going to be one less homer in the stat book”

Exactly my point…well, one of ‘em anyway. That wind also knocks down player A’s home run and turns it into an out. At the same time, when player B hits one with the same power in a stadium somewhere else with no wind he gets a homer and at least one RBI. That effects more than the outcome of that ball. Anyway…

Shaun, damn…this is a first. I don’t think you have ever addressed me before. Listen, I appreciate your standup response, I really do. Shows character. Just know that my advice was not intended to dissuade you from your own blog (not that I could) or from posting all you want here. You keep this place alive at times. Other times, like earlier tonight, you get all “stat-ier than thou” with the attitude.

Just step back, put it all in perspective and you will bring more “seasoning” to the stew (and be a better blogmeister for your own site as a result). Just know that my post was not a condemnation, merely a sincere criticism intended solely for YOUR benefit. That, plus I was frankly getting tired of your unnecessary attitude towards others.

Hope you take it that way. You obviously have talent, passion and knowledge of the game. Expand your horizons, lose the intense focus on stats, the occasional ’tude and you’ll be fine. You got the “work part” down pat…now enjoy the “fun part”. Then the good guy Shaun attracts all the good guy bloggers that enjoy your take on the game.

That’s it. No more advice. Take it for what you think it’s worth. Hope you see it as though I just handed you a gold coin, but that’s your call.

By mr baseball

October 11, 2007 11:45 PM | Link to this

Just posted this in response to Bradley’s column. Figured I would give those of you more familiar with my verbose, condescending, know-it-all rants an opportunity to scroll past another one.

Mr. Bradley: Please stick to football and basketball, sports you have at least some working knowledge of. Schuerholz did an outstanding job the first 4 or 5 years he was the Braves’ GM (but not as outstanding as his lapdogs in the media believe). He has been mediocre at best since Spring Training of 1997, when he ushered in the demise of the team as a serious World Series contender by trading Grissom, Justice & Dye in the span of a few days for next to nothing.

You can always tell uninformed commentators attempting to balance Schuerholz’ trade history when they cite Albie Lopez, who was of little consequence before or after his signing. Little or no mention of the Justice-Grissom-Dye fiasco, or the Boone-Klesko trade, as awful a swap as any GM has made in modern baseball history and one that did significant damage to the team come post-season time for the next 3 years.

He repeatedly left the team with a suspect bullpen, particularly in recent seasons, with his “solution” the likes of Reitsma, Kolb and a string of third-rate lefties. He has traded just about every pitching prospect the team has developed the last 4 or 5 years, and has pretty much nothing to show for it, other than a rental season or a few months from guys like J.D. Drew & Farnsworth. Whose fault was the sad state of the back of the Brave’ rotation this season? Not Roger McDowell’s.

After Schuerholz went from being a “genius” (pre-1997) to just another hit-or-miss GM, the Braves’ string of division titles was extended thanks to the trio of Maddox, Glavine & Smoltz, and the excellence of the farm system, which produced a string of outstanding position players, beginning with Chipper, Lopez, Klesko, Andruw, Furcal, etc. Thanks to players like Giles, LaRoche, Francouer, McCann, K. Johnson, etc., the Braves have been able to overcome the failures of the GM to address problems he created, but his less than stellar job performance the last few years is now evident.

When Teixeira leaves for greener pastures after next season, the ex-GM’s last big trade probably won’t look so good, but the media types like Bradley who have exalted Schuerholz over the years will never point that out. They’ll be too busy kissing his ring when they vote him into the Hall of Fame.

Schuerholz was not a bad GM, but for the last decade he has certainly not been the best in the business. Anyone who takes a look at the body of his work will come to that conclusion, but that would require a little research, which is too much to ask of today’s opinion spouters in print and on the air.

Anyone wishing to defend Schuerholz, please answer the following:

Why did the Braves go from making 4 World Series appearances in 5 years to 1 in the next dozen or so?

Why did the Braves go from winning their first 5 divisional series with a combined record of 15-2 to losing 5 times in the first round in the next 6 seasons, all to inferior opponents?

The sale of the Braves to Time-Warner is an acceptable answer. So is the nondescript efforts of our alleged Hall of Fame executive and his fellow Future H of F manager.

The Braves are a better team without him, and will be a better team when the current manager vacates the dugout for someone who actually has a grasp of in-game strategy, another topic that will never be broached in print in the ATL.

By Savannah Guy

October 12, 2007 12:00 AM | Link to this

WOW! Rookie mistake taking second then oversliding the bag. That’s perfectly fine by me…GO ROX!

Chris Dittos on the game but I have to add something about the supermodel comment: Give a man a supermodel and within one year tops he’s camped out in front of the tube watching baseball with a drink in one hand and a remote control in the other. Beauty is skin deep but baseball is…necessary. Half kidding…love the Lady I do.

Gators are going wild eh? I read about the guy snorkling and getting his wing chewed off. Damn lucky he was to have a group of nurses there. Actually luck is for games…that man was saved for a good reason by the Man above.

Dittos on the aesthetics of the game. Being at the park will always be a memorable event, win or lose.

By ToTellTheTruth

October 12, 2007 12:09 AM | Link to this

To tell the truth—-this song says it all—-“Killing me Slowly”

Stromin’ the keyboard with his fingers,

Fraying my nerves with his words,

Killing me slowly with his stats x2,

Ruining my whole life with his words,

Shaun’s slowly killing the blog with his stats!

Yea yea yea do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do

I heard he had it all wrong,

I heard he had no style,

And so I just scroll by him, even left the blog for awhile,

And there he was this young boy,

Stranger to my eyes.

Chorus:

Stromin’ the keyboard with his fingers (one time, one time)

Fraying my nerves with his words (two times, two times)

Killing me slowly with his stats x2

Ruining my whole life with his words,

Shaun’s slowly killing the blog with his stats!

I felt all flushed with boredom,

Wanted to scream above the crowd,

I think Shaun found more stats, and wants to post them once more for crying out loud,

I pray that he would finish,

But he just kept right on!

Wooooooaaaa ohhhhhhhhhh laaaa la la la la la la ohhh la laaa woaaa laa Aaaalaaaaaa

But Shaun just kept right on!

By Savannah Guy

October 12, 2007 12:13 AM | Link to this

flbravesgirl Thanks for the post mention. Just my silliness as usual. Hey, you and Chris are right about missing many of the regular good denizens but they’ll be back. It’s probably just a convenient time to take a break. We all need one at one time or another. Hopefully we won’t all slump at the same time.

By the way, my protege Mr. Fly is buzzing around your state now meandering down to Miami. If you see him tell him to concentrate on propegating the baseball reports and not the, uh…orange blossoms. He has many flygirl friends down there.

By David O'Brien

October 12, 2007 12:19 AM | Link to this

Schuerholz “was not a bad GM”?

Whew. I’m sure John Schuerholz will be comforted by the fact that the self-proclaimed Mr. Baseball has declared he was not a bad GM.

Hearing it from “media lapdogs” is one thing. Having other GMs, from Dave Dombrowski to Kenny Williams, call him a legend and the best in the business, that’s nice. Having Peter Ueberroth call him the “gold standard” of his profession, and having Jim Bowden tell me they should rename the executive of the year award the “John Schuerholz Award,” all that’s fine.

But having the blogger known as “Mr. Baseball” say he was not a bad GM? Well, that’s the stamp of approval Schuerholz surely was waiting for.

By Savannah Guy

October 12, 2007 12:25 AM | Link to this

ToTellTheTruth C’mon anonymous one…give it a break. You’re just being mean and Shaun doesn’t deserve that…no one does. So, either use your usual moniker and offer something meaningful or quit the unhelpful, unnecessary and below the belt criticizing. Not funny and not admirable…

By David O'Brien

October 12, 2007 12:27 AM | Link to this

ChrisKlob, love the line about Knob Creek and stats….

Oh, and yes, the end of the season brings ‘em out. Sad sacks of the world. Oh, well, what are you gonna do?

We’ll recover. As old Friedrich N. said, what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger. Or whatever he said.

The good regulars will be back. No worries. Soon as we have time to scribble down a few IP addresses of the worst offenders, they’ll be banned.

Then they’ll come back with different addresses sooner or later, spew some infantile bile (it must feel good, having this outlet, so the bullied loners from high school can strike back), and then we’ll have ‘em banned again.

It’s all good, my friend.

The Office was great tonight, by the way.

By Savannah Guy

October 12, 2007 12:29 AM | Link to this

flbravesgirl Thanks for the post mention. Just my silliness as usual. Hey, you and Chris are right about missing many of the regular good denizens but they’ll be back. It’s probably just a convenient time to take a break. We all need one at one time or another. Hopefully we won’t all slump at the same time.

By the way, my protege Mr. Fly is buzzing around your state now, meandering his way down to Miami. If you see him tell him to concentrate on propegating the baseball reports and not the, uh…orange blossoms. He has many flygirl friends down there.

On that note…I bid you and all the good folks a good night.

By ToTellTheTruth

October 12, 2007 1:24 AM | Link to this

Don’t worry about banning me—-I’ll be getting all the Braves news I need from their MLB Atlanta Braves homepage—-Can’t gut that ungrateful, smart@$$ David O’Brien and his handful or so of wannabe journalists that think they are the only people here with anything worth saying—-auf wiedersehen @$$holes!

By uga-brave

October 12, 2007 1:38 AM | Link to this

mr baseball,

i agree with almost everthing you said. JS went from having a open checkbook to basically having no money to spend considering the money they had tied up long term.

he won the lottery with glav, smoltz, and avery. never has there been a trio of pitchers that actually lived up to the hype. he then added maddux and crime dog and he became a legend. throw in trades for neagle and grissom and it was icing on the cake.

this for me ended some time around 2000, got lucky for a while on the dye trade, the klesko, boone trade for veras and sanders was a diaster.

maddux, glavine, and smoltz painted over a lot of bad trades. though the ortiz trade for moss was a coup.

hey i will always be grateful to JS for pulling us out of the abyss to being the standard bearer for 14 years. he added professionalism and pride to our organization. he was the BROOKS BROTHERS finish to what had been a mens warehouse organization.

this being said, WHO drafted glav, who traded for smoltz, who drafted justice, gant, blauser,lemke, mercker,stanton, HOSS, and so many more? who made gant an outfielder?

one ROBERT COX #6, AS MUCH AS YOU GUYS HATE ON HIM HE IS THE REASON WE BECAME RELEVANT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

By Coach ( Lets Go Braves In 2008)

October 12, 2007 2:05 AM | Link to this

John Schuerholz , simply put , is a Hall of Fame General Manager and a brilliant baseball mind.

By uga-barve

October 12, 2007 2:19 AM | Link to this

DOB,

i check out the dawgs blog every now and then, but i always come home. reading the dawgs blog is like eating paste. you must educate CHIP TOWERS how it is done.

you have definetely found a group eccletic passionate baseball fans, with a couple of diverse music buffs. i for one being a second half rookie appreciate the forum, i find your dry wit and confidence refreshing ( probably easier now that kansas is playing relevant football) but anyways i think a lot of us who agree or disagree are cut from the same sick ilk, and WE DEFINITELY APPRECIATE YOUR TALENT.

by the way saw the FOO at the tabernacle two weeks ago, pretty decent show.

By uga-brave

October 12, 2007 2:29 AM | Link to this

one last thought i think JS has just about given up on jonathan, i do give JS credit for not shoving his kid down our throat, must of been hard. read JS’S BOOK two great chapters, one about deion and one about the bottle of wine he and kasten shared.

By Coach ( Lets Go Braves In 2008)

October 12, 2007 2:56 AM | Link to this

To renew my argument with Efrim I add : Dear blogger , you have no C-L-U-E whatsoever. Your statement that the Cardinals are cash strapped is ridiculous , they just built a brand new stadium and christened it with a World Championship in 2006. That should be a C-L-U-E for you , Efrim , but it obviously isn’t. You mocked me when I said that Rick Ankiel could play CF when and if Jim Edmonds is done after 2008. Never mind the fact that Ankiel played CF in triple AAA and another 28 games last season for the Cardinals in CF , splitting his time between CF and RF. You , Efrim , all but completely fail to understand the value of the All-star SS that Edgar Renteria is. The Braves paid him 6.6 million in 2007 while the Cardinals paid David Eckstein 4.5 million. Renteria’s 12 HR’s and 57 RBI while batting .332 VS. Eckstein’s 3 HR 31 RBI .309 BA should be a C-L-U-E when comparing the value of the two short stop’s. Eckstein is expected to leave St.Louis and get a pay increase while Renteria can be had through 2009. The Cardinals need a SS , the Braves need a CF , H-E-L-L-O ???? Renteria for a package of three minor leaguers headlined by CF Colby Rasmus makes to much sense. Does J.D Drew and Eli Marrero for two first round draft picks ( Jason Marquis , Adam Wainwright and Ray King ) ring a bell ? Trading Renteria is almost the exact same thing reversed , minus King and Marrero. Get a C-L-U-E already , Efrim. My trade proposal is the EXACT type of trade that happens every season in Major League Baseball. It’s a perfect fit for both ball clubs. Renteria goes back to St.Louis while the Braves allow Colby Rasmus to make the jump from double AA , like Francoeur and McCann did and getting two minor league pitchers to help restock the farm system. It’s a plain old common sense baseball trade that has been done dozens of times before. I fully realize that the Braves are thinking pitching first and I don’t disagree with that. But , if Glavine is signed , CF becomes the immediate priority. Unless the Detroit Tigers , San Francisco Giants or another team cough up a type one or two starter , I see Renteria in a Cardinals uniform in 2008.

By Shaun

October 12, 2007 6:59 AM | Link to this

Morning, all. One thing to say to defend myself: I’m really not as big a stat guy as I’m portrayed here. I can understand why people view me this way but if you sat down with me in person, you’d see I’m not a huge stat guy. Last night a friend asked me what was the most homers Ted Williams hit in a season. I couldn’t tell him.

I get this rep because I bring up a few stats that people may have never heard of or I judge players on stats that are not common and don’t show up in the TV overlay. If you read my posts, you’ll see I really don’t bring up all that many stats. I do try to filter out all the stats that are less useful and use only the most useful stats and the most telling about a player’s value. You’ll never ever see me bring up many splits or many stats about players batting in day games on turf or anything like that.

And the reason I post so much is because I’ll respond to something the I feel very strongly about and I believe the evidence backs me up, no question. Then people will pile it on because maybe it challenges what they believe, which I do understand, and so I’ll continue to pile it on and defend myself and defend the evidence, which seems to me to be objective.

Okay, fair enough? Honestly, this is the way I see things. I’m not an egomaniac. I’m not a stat geek in the strictest sense of the word. I’m a baseball fan that wants to be open-minded and continue to learn as much as I can about the game and seek the truth about the game.

By flange1

October 12, 2007 8:27 AM | Link to this

Shaun,

From my perspective, you do bring al ot to this blog. Some of the information that you bring I have not seen or would not see in my daily jaunt through the baseball rumor mill.

The thing that I see that rubs people the wrong way is the smug condesending attitude that you have about YOUR stats vs others stats. You are constantly looking down on us and telling us that we need to stop living in the past and believe your stats.

This is similar to our Mets friend Anders. He has the tendency to come here and give us the I told you this would happen.

Shaun, I think if you go back and look at your tone on some of the posts that cause the most uproar, you would see what I am talking about.

There is no doubt that the information that you pass on has validity, and that your opinion adds to the qulity of the blog, but if you can adjust your method of presentation, I think that you will not be such a lightning rod for arguments.

My 2 cents…..

By journalist jimmy smith

October 12, 2007 8:33 AM | Link to this

dob is talking banning again. oh, the humanity! who could dob be talking about? carolina lady? nope. gone. matthew, father of walter? nope. gone. well, who could it be? totellthetruth? banished itself if you believe the 1:24 am post. yes, stinky has returned and is now facing certain banishment again. mental midget. whiny little banished jerk as lew would say. and now, baseball … journalist cannot watch another team broadcast by cubbie. jimmy smith does not know why but this journalist just cannot get into the games. should see the braves out there that’s what the tushy trade was all about. and whither laroche? guess laroche is out a huntin’ with uh, chipper. remember the guns, guys.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 12, 2007 8:49 AM | Link to this

irony: after all the warnings to dob not to shake hands with bobby cox, now, dob has a blog that says don’t shake hands at the ted. proof that this journalist is cutting edge.

and did dob comment on the $1,000 prize for best of cox? sharing the prize with this blog? (maybe could spring for some tee shirts :-)

cheese samplers at christmas will suffice. and the best cheese samplers are in the post season and the very best cheese samplers are in milwaukee. oh, the humanity! missing some good cheese.

and the new gm should consider racing characters around the ted much like the racing sausages and the racing presidents. atlanta could have racing hip hop stars. each race covered by the ajc. covers hip hop like the dew.

and there has been little talk of food of late. only that sandwich thing (don’t get her started). maybe flbravesgirl can talk red velvet cake and get things going again. letwan may talk a little pie later today.

and whatever became of walt weiss? one of the best plays ever made in atlanta was by walt weiss. and whither carroll rogers? should drop in now and then.

and speaking of dropping in … journalist will now talk stats. 1 in 4 is .225. 2 of 4 is .500. how much is 3 of 4? prize to winner.

have a nice day!

By Efrim

October 12, 2007 9:00 AM | Link to this

Coach

If you are a Cardinals fan, do you trade your BEST PROSPECT for an aging SS? That is what Rasmus is, their BEST PROSPECT. I don’t give a s** if JS traded Salty for Tex, that has NOTHING to do with what ST LOUIS will do to fill their need at SS. Rasmus is projected to be MUCH better than the 4TH OUTFIELDER, Rick Ankiel. Or at least that is what he should be. They are cash strapped because they are paying way too much money to veterans who aren’t giving them ANYTHING. Carpenter, Edmonds, and Rolen are being paid a lot of money and won’t give you the production you need. If they have a Rasmus, who is their LONG TERM ANSWER in Centerfield, then why would you trade him for a one year rental? 2009 is an option for Renteria, it isn’t guarenteed. So therefore, they don’t have to exercise it. DON’T THINK OF IT IN TERMS OF BEING A BRAVES FAN. If you are the Cardinals, is that a intelligent, long term, baseball move??? Long Term. Think of the future.

By ssiscribe

October 12, 2007 9:07 AM | Link to this

Top of the morning, denizens, as the mercury slides into the 30s for the first time this offseason.

Now, JJS (noted transition by the Scribe): I enjoyed your transition the other day; new and innovative, I must say. The fish fry never happened, out of respect to Baby Seal. But I must say this Scribe is frying fish on a daily basis at the house, and actually gets to go out and knock himself out a game story later today.

Now, food (more transition, as the offseason cranks into full gear): Those going to Vegas could do worse than I did last week. Great Chinese at Planet Hollywood. Great steak at our hotel. Great Italian overlooking the strip, twice! Great breakfast at Mandalay Bay (comped, too!). Food in Vegas is awesome, and fresh, even though it’s stuck in the midst of a desert. But nothing beats being home in the A for great food.

Now, baseball (you knew we’d get to it sooner or later): I, too, said it a ton last night: “Braves should be out there.” A very frustrating night watching Webb spin himself into trouble time and again. But the Rox and the D’Backs certainly know each other. They play a bunch in spring training, are in the same division, etc.

And I, too, think it weird hearing Chip in the booth calling the Snakes and Rox. I like Bob Brenley (anybody remember how he used to KILL the Braves when he was a catcher with the Giants?), and contrary to the talk on here, I found Tony Gwynn insightful and entertaining.

And can you believe the Hit King of my generation is now a grandfather? Oh my, this Scribe is getting old. Not as old as the esteemed journalist who sometimes inhabits the isle I used to reside on … but then again, this Scribe is nowhere as good as the grand gentlemen of Atlanta scribin, either!

Now, Thrashers (gotta vent a second): They suck. Hartley needs Grinch and Scribe out there together on the blueline, kicking tail and takin’ names. And maybe Craig Custance would do a feature on the Braves/MIB Bloggers saving the Thrashers season (and Hartley’s job)? Or maybe not, since Scribe can’t skate. Bet I’d shoot on the power play, though.

And with that, duty calls. Selah, denizens. The Scribe abides.

—30—

By Shaun

October 12, 2007 9:12 AM | Link to this

flange1, I understand your perspective. It is certainly not my intention to come across as smug or condescending. I really do understand why I may seem that way. It’s hard to take a nice tone when it’s just words on a screen. Also, I may not come across as very understanding when people say I’m manipulating the numbers because I’m simply trying to point out what is.

When I tell people to stop living in the past with certain stats or tell people that there stats are not very telling, it’s because I honestly feel convicted that I’ve looked into these numbers with some degree of skepticism and can’t let it go when someone says a particular stat is very telling of a player’s value when I believe it’s not and believe the evidence backs me up.

For example, the whole batting average argument. I can understand why people want to put a lot of faith in batting average to determine the value of a hitter, I really do. I feel I’ve looked into it skeptically, read how batting average came about and why it came about in the time it came about, and read the work other people have done regarding batting average and firmly and strongly believe that there is no way to deny that batting average is of lesser importance than other stats. Doesn’t mean I don’t understand why people still put a lot of faith in batting average but I just don’t that’s a reason to avoid trying to speak out on what I think all the evidence points out about batting average’s true ability to tell us about a player’s hitting value.

By Big Buck

October 12, 2007 9:21 AM | Link to this

My how much “quieter” it is on the old blog since DOB threatened to use the “B” button.

Now, flangel, I agree with you about Shaun. He is not “dumb” and anyone who says he is, are dumb, themselves. But arrogant, condescending and know-it-all, those are points for discussion.

By Overlord

October 12, 2007 9:34 AM | Link to this

I thought the purpose of this blog was to discuss atlanta braves matters.

By Renegator

October 12, 2007 9:48 AM | Link to this

Shaun:

Have you gotten your check from the Mike Cameron camp yet?

By Efrim

October 12, 2007 9:54 AM | Link to this

Renegator

I got mine.

Cameron for Centerfield in the ATL for 2008!!!!

By Shaun

October 12, 2007 9:59 AM | Link to this

Renegator, nope. Still holding out hope for Andruw. He’s richer.

By flange1

October 12, 2007 9:59 AM | Link to this

Shaun,

You have certainly convinced me that BA is not the stat that I have always thought that it was! But I also think that has relevance in comparing different generations of players.

Your arguments are usaully quite valid and your logic is accurate, just work on your presentation and you will get much friendlier responses!

By Buffalo NY Braves fan

October 12, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this

Scribe,

Poor showing for your Thrashers last night. But you must have known that actually shooting on the power play is very over rated.

I have no opinion on the GM move made yesterday, I don’t know enough about Wren to comment. If he has been learning under JS then I am not to worried about it.

Efrim… I agree with you on the St. Louis trade idea that was thrown around. Why would St. Louis trade a top tier prospect for a 1 year rental, and why would Atlanta want their CF prospect when they feel confident in the one they already have?

I can see Edgar being used in a 3 way trade to get Atlanta Dan Haren. Edgar goes to team x, lillibridge and James to go the A’s, team x sends a prospect or 2 to the A’s, Atlanta gets Haren. Not sure who team X is at the moment though.

By David O'Brien

October 12, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this

UGA-braves, just “pretty decent” on the Foo Fighters at Tabernacle? I get a bit tired of their tunes on CD, but live? Haven’t seen them, but they seem like they’d be outstanding live….

Anyone going to the crunchy-granola weekend concert? Have fun. Weather should be perfect (but take a blanket, you overnight campers).

I love a few of the bands, but not enough of them to spend $150 or whatever the cost for a ticket to that marathon weekend. And hey, I’m a bit old for the take-an-air-mattress-and-stay-overnight thing. And way too volatile and impatient to sit in that traffic going back and forth each day.

But you kids have a blast. I know you will. I know I would’ve if it had been held 10-15 years ago.

By Thrillhouse44

October 12, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this

JJS, not sure where Walt Weiss is right now, but 1 of 4 is .250, not .225. 3 of 4 is .750 - right? Do I get some BBQ for that?

By David O'Brien

October 12, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this

Thrillhouse, if you can meet me at Fat Matt’s Rib Shack on Piedmont in an hour, I’ll buy the BBQ.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 12, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

thrillhouse is the winner! a trap had been set for statisticians on this blog but thrillhouse was quick to catch on. now, dob will be sending thrillhouse a tee shirt soon :-).

By Thrillhouse44

October 12, 2007 10:34 AM | Link to this

DOB, I’d love some Q right now, but I’m 7 to 8 hours away from ATL right now. I’ll have to take a rain check for next April or May. My fiance is from the A and she’s bragged about Fat Matt’s before, so enjoy some for me.

By Shaun

October 12, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this

DOB, how about a Braves Blog night at a local watering hole? Seems like a great marketing opportunity.

By Shaun

October 12, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

DOB, how about a Braves Blog night at a local watering hole? Only announce it on the blog and get all the regulars together face-to-face so either a brawl can break out or we can see the faces and personalities behind the words on a screen.

By flange1

October 12, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

Shaun,

Great idea on the Blog nite out?

PLEASE DOB?

By DAP

October 12, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

curse you thrillhouse just kidding. but not really. you beat me to the answer. perhaps i should refresh more often, then i wouldnt think i was the first to respond!

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 12, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

DOB, what do you think of Wren? Will he shake the roster up or will he leave things as they are and just do what we assumed JS was going to do and go after a starter. Also, everybody seems to have forgotten that Mahay is a free agent. Will the Braves attempt to re-sign him?

By ncscoots

October 12, 2007 11:04 AM | Link to this

SG, I wouldn’t worry too much about the diminution of contribution from the “regulars”. No lockers have been cleaned out; plenty left in there for winter workouts. Even The Notorious One cools off some in the offseason (no new blogs on a daily basis, and good reason for it). Besides, I would think serious discussion must now wait until the blog sees the stripe of Frank Wren, no? Novermber meetings at the earliest, maybe even December.

On another note, to mr baseball: mr b, I think I once said you were condescending, but that was totally in jest. More a comment on your predilection for suffering fools ungladly (something I’ve been accused of, my own self) than anything else. Hope that wasn’t taken the wrong way.

Finally, I guess I’m doomed to never live down “succinct”, LOL. Even mr b took a little shot :-) Oh, well.

By Renegator

October 12, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this

DOB:

You recommend the Q at Fat Matts? I have never been there before but heard good things about it. I took your recommendation and went to Dusty’s down on Briarcliff. It wasn’t bad - it wasn’t my favorite either.

Anyone else have recommendations for good Q in the ATL? I heard good things about Slopes and Williamson Bros. Anyone been to either of those?

By Savannah Guy

October 12, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

Oh, that great Walt Weiss play…Braves backs up against the wall, bases loaded, hard grounder, diving snag, up from the dirt to throw home for the force out and we remained alive in the Houston series. Never forget it. That’s the one right?

By David O'Brien

October 12, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this

Thrillhouse, I was ready to roll, man. Honestly forgot you weren’t from here. Weather’s so fine, I was gonna get on the (motor)bike and ride over there, only about 12-15 minutes from my house.

I do think the blog nite’s a good idea. I don’t like organizing such things, however. Liability and all that.

By Savannah Guy

October 12, 2007 11:16 AM | Link to this

Blog bar night? Oh, that could be dangerous. Will bloggers talk or write posts on bar naps? Will Grinch officiate the fisticuffs? Will noogies be given? Will thirsty Bloggers belly up to the bar and cause the bar to sag? Will someone bring BBQ? Cheese? Shrimp sammiches? Will there be a juke box? Will someone put a quarter in and play a Whitesnake tune? Would DOB then put up his dukes? So many questions…

By Savannah Guy

October 12, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this

Quick, someone go to Fat Matts and say you are Thrillhouse. Strap on the free BBQ feedbag and gorge yourself while enjoying an audience with the MIB. You can fess up right after finishing the Q. DOB may then punch you but you will be full of BBQ so the punch won’t hurt as bad.

By Lew

October 12, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

DOB-Good thing I didn’t win-I’d never make it there in an hour-in fact, couldn’t even make it to the airport in an hour. Enjoy that BBQ and drink a Sweet Tea for me and have some pie. Now, what’s this about the Best of Cox award? Did the blog win yet again? Must be the Wurlitzers.

Shaun-I somewhat agree with Flange, although I (of all people) would never give you grief for arrogance. It’s not the fact that you use stats-I use stats, as do many of us. Your smugness does have something to do with it, but mostly it’s just your absolute stubbornness and pig headedness. You come up with what most of us view as obscure formulas and theories and thoroughly expect all of us (some who have been watching baseball in minute detail for 50 or more years-I mean I saw Robin Roberts pitch) to jump up and down believing a whole lot of crap that means nothing to us. I suppose you could look at it as a form of not being able to teach an old dog new tricks, but that really isn’t it-it’s much more your unwillingness to even consider that we could get by just fine without using this information-which many of us lend little creedence (Not Clearwater) to.

You’ve got to understand that we KNOW baseball. We know baseball quite well. We know if a player is good or not. We know if players are deserving of winning major awards (and that there may be more than one deserving, thereof). We know why some succeed and others don’t. We do this all without using Pathagorean Philosophy (I always though Good Ole Path was doing just fine in math class-never saw a need to sully baseball with higher math functions) or reverting to Sabremetrics or other arcane nonsense. We can do this without taking Win Shares into account. We feel no need for all of this New Age Theory to enjoy watching the game we completely love and likely couldn’t live without. We can do without all of this while still allowing for a difference of opinion. Difference of opinion is a bone you won’t let go of, however. You are so absolutely convinced we don’t know our butts from holes in the ground because we are unbelievers. Oh, The Heresy.

It’s all fine and well that you enjoy researching what most of us feel is gibberish. I’m truly glad you’ve found a cause to keep you occupied and have found something relevant in your life. However…..There are other philosophies-ways off looking at baseball that have served fans well for well over a hundred years. You can talk about the antiquated notions of the 19th century and rail about the unfairness of how we haven’t kept up with cutting edge changes in our beloved sport. However, despite what you think are advances, most of us realize something extremely germane to the argument-in the 1800’s pitchers still threw the ball, hitters still tried to hit it and fielders tried to catch it. They tried to score more runs while keeping the other team from scoring. They all did it in their own way and all played at a variety of different locales. The fact remains-baseball is essentially the same game it was in 1865. No New Theories or formulas will EVER change that-or many of the fans.

By Thrillhouse44

October 12, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

I’ll host the blog night in Virginia. We don’t have the Braves or Thrashers, but we have a star on a mountain. Good stuff.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 12, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

take it from this journalist - sam and daves. friend of this journalist. state champions in bbq - several states. best bbq around. marietta, two locations. if you don’t like this bbq something is wrong. you can try the banana pudding for dessert.

and what liability could result from throwing a party for disturbed, multi-personality wierdos that molest animals? journalist sees no issue here.

By Thrillhouse44

October 12, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

DOB, I don’t blame you for shying away from hosting. No telling how much you would get sued for if someone was intoxicated and stubbed a toe on the bar!

By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)

October 12, 2007 11:45 AM | Link to this

Efrim , you must be blind as a bat. Between triple A Memphis and St.Louis , Rick Ankiel hit 42 Hr’s and drove in 138 RBI’s while batting .272. FOURTH OUTFIELDER ? Your out of your freaking gourd ! Ankiel is the Cardinals best prospect , your a lunatic , Efrim.

By Savannah Guy

October 12, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Sam and Dave’s sounds great…haven’t tried it. And good ol’ ‘nanner puddin’ too. I’m there if I can get to A that day…a few days notice would help. Any flies there?

It’ll be like the Cuckoo’s nest field trip. Who’s driving the bus?

By ncscoots

October 12, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

No entry to blog nite without a signed waiver sheet. Also, must write down any personal banana pudding quirks. Those bloggers possessed of certain banana pudding quirks (and we all know what they are) will not be allowed among the humans. Most BBQ preferences allowed, but must know the actual definition of “sweet tea”.

By David O'Brien

October 12, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this

Renegator, I only like Dusty’s so much because it’s good Eastern N. Carolina-style Q. But it’s not what many consider the traditional BBQ, so I wouldn’t put it atop my list unless I was stricly recommending it to someone looking for the vinegor-based sauce and pulled pork sandwich.

Now, for other styles of BBQ, Fat Matt’s is great, but I really haven’t had any better in Atlanta than Fox Bros. BBQ that’s served as Smith’s Olde Bar. It’s outstanding.

There’s also a great place, Rolling Bones, in converted gas station turned to a clean, cool BBQ joint down on Sweet Auburn near downtown.

Try any of those three and tell me you didn’t like them, and then I’ll have to wonder about you…. just kidding. But try them. You’ll love ‘em. Go to Smith’s, play some pool, see a band upstairs, and enjoy that delicious pulled-pork sandwich (not Carolina style, but “traditional” style sauce).

By Efrim

October 12, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this

Coach

You probably thought Mike Hessman and Scott Thorman were are best prospects. Read up about Rasmus. Then come talk to me. You are wrong. Ask anyone on this blog. If you are the Cards, d you make that trade? Be honest now.

By Lew

October 12, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

DOB-Maybe we should see how a dozen or so of us do together at Spring Training, when there are numerous 220+ pound people with bats to stop fights.

Now, Traditional BBQ. I’m in Vermont, so I think it’s a pretty good bet I’ll never see Eastern Carolina BBQ here. However, we do have Finkerman’s in Montpelier. Jewish Northern BBQ. OY- The Humanity.

Got to admit, though, they make some good Pulled Pork and you can get Jalepeno cheese Grits and greens. They at least try. Maybe if the owner changed his name to Billy Joe Finkerman or Bubba Finkerman. I’m absolutely certain no self respecting Q joint in the south would ever consider BBQ tofu, though.

By flbravesgirl

October 12, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this

Would you feel safer about hosting if it was somewhere other than a bar, DOB? With this bunch it ought to be in a restaurant anyway.

What I think would be great would be a blog night at the ballpark next season. Maybe get one of the picnic areas or something for everyone to mingle before the game. Or, if a number of denizens could get down here for a few days for the brevity master class, we could have The 1st Annual Braves/MIB Blog Spring Training Invasion.

Now Scribe, if you ever do get Grinch out on the ice in skates, I want video.

By Savannah Guy

October 12, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

mmm…so much BBQ to choose from. I’m writing these down for future reference. I get so much good Q around Savannah that I haven’t ventured out much for that in Atlanta. Usually MF Sushi, Rathbuns, Murphys, Taquiria del Sol, Baronda wood-fired pizza, Kyma, Bluepoint, Aria, Bacchanalia, and lot’s of smaller inexpensive places like Spoon Thai, Woody’s, on and on. Damn…I’ve eaten a wide swath in the ATL. So that’s what happened to those washboard abs…

By journalist jimmy smith

October 12, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

oh, the humanity! bloggers talking bbq and pudding! this blog is getting healthy again (maybe not heart healthy, but healthy in another sense). reminds this journalist of a ugandan barbecue joint back in kampala, where the best bbq hartebeest in the world is served. and scoots is right about the banana pudding. ask diane lane (lovely but no pudding skills). and thrillhouse is right again, toes are not to be trifled with.

By Mr. Fly (Sleuth Reporter)

October 12, 2007 12:35 PM | Link to this

bloggers possessed of certain banana pudding quirks (and we all know what they are) will not be allowed among the humans.

Uh oh…am I allowed? Oh, I hope so, banana pudding and BBQ are favorites. I won’t talk much and I don’t take up much room. Just a nice little wall somewhere near the buffet would be just fine.

By Shaun

October 12, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

Lew, I understand those sentiments. I really do. As just think with baseball as with anything, things change and ways to evaluate become better.

I realize that every regular is an intelligent baseball fan and that the game will do just fine with the most basic traditional stats.

But I always want to arrive closer and closer to truth, and gain more and more knowledge of something that I’m passionate about.

I guess what pulls me into long and frequent posts that may sound condescending are comments like this: “Sabremetrics or other arcane nonsense.”

I’m going to get defensive because I know full well what sabermetrics has contributed to the game and what it has open me up to. As I’ve said long ago, I wish I had known some of these ideas when I was playing baseball because I have no doubt they would have helped me.

It’s just hard not to sound condescending to someone who on the one hand will criticize sabermetrics and on the other hand admits he wants no part of it and never wants to do a little investigation into what it’s all about and whether the ideas actually improve knowledge of the game. I’m sorry, but that’s the case.

Murray Chass once wrote, “To me, VORP epitomized the new-age nonsense. For the longest time, I had no idea what VORP meant and didn’t care enough to go to any great lengths to find out. I asked some colleagues whose work I respect, and they didn’t know what it meant either. Finally, not long ago, I came across VORP spelled out. It stands for value over replacement player. How thrilling. How absurd. Value over replacement player. Don’t ask what it means. I don’t know.”

I can understand why progress is a scary thing but it’s hard for me to have a positive view about someone like that; he is willing to criticize but not willing to try to open his mind and understand where these ideas come from.

By DAP

October 12, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

an article from Bill Nye on the science behind broken bats. science rules!

By Big Buck

October 12, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

Just so we don’t go to Shaun’s favorite place, The Pythagorean Pig where they pull it and pull it and pull it until it is a Sabremetric mess.

By David O'Brien

October 12, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

BBQ tofu? You didn’t write that.

By Renegator

October 12, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

DOB:

Thanks for the BBQ recommendations. I am a huge fan of it but haven’t found a place in ATL that really knocks my socks off. I’ve been to Smith’s Olde Bar a lot but never had the BBQ. The have some excellent fried pickles for sure.

By Big Buck

October 12, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

And I hope they serve fly-less ‘nana puddin. I don’t like flies in my ‘nana puddin. Let them eat cake…or orange blossoms.

By Lew

October 12, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

Shaun-Give me some credit here. I do pay attention to what you say (though I sincerely doubt the reverse is true). I just don’t feel the need to go into an intensive study of something I don’t feel I need. Don’t take it so personally. I feel no need for calculus, microbiology, organic chemistry or quantum physics in my daily life, either, though Geometry has proven useful to me as an artist.

Like I said-The real problem I have with you is your penchant for making bombastic statements that many of us disagree with and then you go on a days long tirade about how you’re right and we’re wrong, based on formulas and theories most of us feel to be unnecessary to our enjoyment and understanding of the game. You consistently contend (despite numerous others on the blog steadfastly and continuously disagreeing with you) that you are right-that your way is the only path to true enlightenment. You constantly claim a search for truth only. Do you realize just how Diogenean that is? Your formulas are really leading you nowhere closer to an undefinable truth than our limited use of stats. You can and do over analyze everything and then tell us, in effect, that we know nothing and are completely misinformed, because we disagree with you. Believe me- We all know Aaron Rowand won’t hit as many HR’s in San Diego than he does in Philadelphia. We just don’t need formulae and advanced mathematical theory to devine the reason for this.

By ncscoots

October 12, 2007 1:00 PM | Link to this

I’m absolutely certain no self respecting Q joint in the south would ever consider BBQ tofu, though.

Exactly correct, Lew…mostly to keep the universe from cracking in two. Talk about signs of the apocalypse being near, HA!

By mr baseball

October 12, 2007 1:01 PM | Link to this

Mr. O’Brien:

Often times, discussions about certain topics here resemble conversations between Bill O’Reilley and antagonists who he disagrees with. They offer up facts, history & analysis (usually not all that well; he wouldn’t invite them on if they capable of skewering him), he responds with his own lofty and unassailable opinions, dismmissing anything said by the opposition that doesn’t correspond to his limited grasp of the particular issue.

When 2 of the 3 remaining members of the Braves’ holy trinity are criticized, you frequently trivialize the dissenting opinions by smugly pointing out that every last one of their peers thinks Cox & Schuerholz thinks they are among the best, if not the best, in their respective professions.

John Schuerholz made his rep in Atlanta from 1991-96, primarily due to 4 trades/signings: Pendelton, Maddux, McGriff, Grissom. He was a huge part of the worst to first turnaround in ‘91, but other than Pendleton, the primary contributors to that team were pre-Schuerholz, with the likes of Bream, Belliard & Nixon nice acquisitions but not nearly as vital to that team’s success as the pitchers who predated the genius GM.

The ardent defenders of the GM, particularly those of you in the media, have become slaves to the self-perpuating fantasy that individuals in sports are judged by the successes of their teams. I think this goes back to NFL quarterbacks. Terry Bradshaw won 4 Super Bowls on a Steelers’ team in which there may have been a dozen players who were better at their positions than he was. Nevertheless, Bradshaw is considered to have won 4 Super Bowls all by himself, and parlayed that into a broadcasting job for which he was totally unqualified and remains a rank amateur 20-some years later.

You can’t criticize the manager or GM in this town without their knee-jerk advocates coming right back with the 14 straight division titles mantra. As if no one else other than the third member of the holy trinity (Leo) had anything to do with the team’s success. It could be that the Braves won IN SPITE of Cox & Schuerholz after the early ’90s, when both did their best work.

Schuerholz walked in to a perfect situation here in 1991. A lot of young talent about ready to blossom, an outstanding farm system and an owner with more money to spend than all but a handful of his peers. As long as those factors were in place, Schuerholz was a terrific GM.

But once Ted was nudged out of his ownership position and the budget was no longer unlimited, the GM’s once near-flawless trade record suddenly began showing some blemishes. Anyone who examines the totality of his work from 1997 to the present will detect a whole lot more failures than someone who as allegedly as brilliant as Schuerholz is supposed to make.

Dismissing my critique because of a throwaway comment is typical of modern discourse between individuals of dissenting opinions. You attempt to diminish the opposing party with insults or sarcasm without any attempt to back up your side of the discussion. In this case, you think any criticism of the ex-GM is so absurd that it is not worthy of anything other than a snide putdown.

Take a look at the Braves’ performance over the years, particularly that in the post-season. There are two seasons where you can spot the beginning of a downward trend in the team’s results. One is after the ‘96 season, the other after the ‘99 season. In both cases, the team’s decline in succeeding post-seasons followed big trades by Schuerholz that turned out to be failures at best, disasters at worst. All this is before the departures of Glavine & Maddux, who along with Smoltz were more of a factor in the team’s success than any member of the holy trinity (Substitute Avery for Maddux in ‘91-‘92).

I will re-phrase. Schuerholz was a very good GM during his tenure here with some glaring exceptions. But the idea that he has been the sharpest pencil in the box is simply a product of laziness by people in your profession, who prefer to parrot the conventional wisdom rather than actually think for themselves, occasionally re-examining opinions that may no longer be valid.

By Thrillhouse44

October 12, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this

Vinegar based, Carolina style BBQ is where it’s at. Lew, you have to find a place up north that serves it.

By Shaun

October 12, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this

Lew, I’m not going to beat a dead horse with you. I’ve said what I needed to say. I don’t care for the Murray Chass’s of the world who don’t understand the interest in trying to advance knowledge and understanding even in something like baseball. Don’t want to engage any farther than that because people already complain too much about my argumentative side.

By Mr. Fly (Sleuth Reporter)

October 12, 2007 1:12 PM | Link to this

• hope they serve fly-less ‘nana puddin. I don’t like flies in my ‘nana puddin. Let them eat cake…or orange blossoms.*

I also hope they serve fly-less pudding. Don’t want a fly wrestling contest in that stuff. Too sticky. I like cake too and love my little orange blossoms. You really know how to hurt a fly…you, you big horny buck.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 12, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this

journalist has only two things to say: bbq should be served hot, banana pudding can be served hot or cold, and beer should be served very cold.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 12, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this

thrillhouse, some bloggers will occasionally mail a little taste of the south to lew. journalist once mailed lew some banana pudding but banana pudding does not travel well.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 12, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this

shaun, carolina lady has the dead horse. this was established weeks ago.

By ncscoots

October 12, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this

Shaun, I believe some here think you smug because you intimate that you’re the only poster on the blog to have heard of SABR, Bill James, or Baseball By The Numbers. Decidedly not the case.

That some here have done the same (or more) reading and research as you, and yet have come to different conclusions, does not seem to register. You continue, with missionary zeal, to spread the (Win Shares) Gospel among the heathen Chinee. And that, my friend, IS smug. Not for the stats, or even their relevance, but for the simple implication that you are right, and all naysayers be wrong…always.

And we all know that only Coach is right ALL the time.

By Thrillhouse44

October 12, 2007 1:25 PM | Link to this

Mrs. Baseball,

Name 5 GMs better than JS after 1996. Do you not remember the Millwood for Estrada trade?

Everyone at the time thought we were giving Millwood away. However, JS got an All-Star catcher out of the deal. That’s just one deal.

Also, you must watch different NFL Films than I do. When shows are done of the Steelers franchise that you mentioned, they generally highlight the Steel Curtain (ever heard of it?) and Lynn Swann. And I actually like Bradshaw as an anchor. Then again, I’m pretty simple minded and still laugh at fart jokes. Maybe I’ve just had conventional wisdom parroted to me.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)

October 12, 2007 1:25 PM | Link to this

Efrim , I’ll be honest. Your an insufferable amateur who wouldn’t know baseball if it hit you in the head. The four following statements attributed to you : The Cardinals are cash strapped, WRONG. Rick Ankiel is a fourth outfielder , WRONG. Edgar Renteria isn’t worth three prospects , WRONG. Rick Ankiel isn’t a center fielder , WRONG. Efrim , please put the crack pipe down , put your hands against your ears and shake , the rattle you hear is that BOX OF ROCKS between your ears !

By Lew

October 12, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

Thrillhouse-Yes, and I must continually hope for a snowless winter, 85 degree temps in Vermont in February and being able to get into Montreal without showing a passport at the Canadian border. Dude, just getting to Finkerman’s is a 38 mile drive-with no businesses in between-great trees in brilliant colors, though. I live in the boonies of central Vermont. I have many more neighbors who own cattle than those who own a restaurant-or even eat in one, for that matter. We are lucky. We live in the only town for a 35 mile radius that has a chain grocery store. Our only fast food (which I rarely, if ever eat) is one McDonald’s. There is a local luncheonette that has ribs occasionally and I damn well wouldn’t trust them to BBQ anything, though they make a mean omelette. I must go to New Hampshire to go to a Wal Mart.

Now, that being said, I have eaten BBQ in North and South Carolina, numerous places in Georgia, from Savannah and Macon, to Atlanta and Athens, Alabama, Florida and Louisiana. I’ve eaten BBQ in chain restaurants, places run by Billy Joe and Bubba and places where I was stared at by stuffed owls and foxes, as well as a place with a fourteen fott gator skin on the wall next to my table.

I don’t like mustard based sauces and actually prefer the Texas style with a thicker, tomato based sauce. Vinegar based is good, but ain’t all that, in my book-a good starting point for the sauce. Whatever-when Jewish Northern is what’s available, then that’s what one eats. It sure as hell beats not having BBQ. At least I can get grits there.

By ncscoots

October 12, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this

…but banana pudding does not travel well

True. No toes.

By David-ATL14

October 12, 2007 1:33 PM | Link to this

* mr baseball*you’re an absolute disgrace to the moniker. Unless it’s intended sarcasm. Fitting that a know nothing hack portrays himself as a self annointed sage.

By Carolina Lady

October 12, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this

Howdy, everyone! I stopped in the other night but y’all were discussing bathroom hygiene - or lack of - had nothing to contribute to that conversation so I just went on down the road. :-)

Some great lines today!

Who’s driving the bus? Raymond. He’s an excellent driver! And, no. The proposed gathering must not be in a bar. Bad, bad move!

Lew, a Jewish bbq place?? Beef, right?

Visualization of Shaun? Wally Cox.

Eastern NC BBQ is the only genuine BBQ; everything else is just a variation of the real thing. Shaun-esque on that! :-))

The new GM Frank Wren - is the little box at Turner Field where JS usually sat now The Bird’s Nest? Catbird’s Seat?

McQuirk was formerly the President and had control of the team’s budget (if I recall correctly). So he is now Chairman and CEO, and JS is President and would now have that control (presumably). Interesting to see what, if any, changes occur!

Wren, JS’s former assistant, did most of the contract negotiating if the article I read is correct. So who is now Wren’s assistant and will that person be doing the negotiating of contracts?

On a personal note, this lady deeply appreciates the prayers and expressions of concern of fellow bloggers during these past few months. God answers prayer; the cancer is gone.

ssiscribe, Savannah Guy, Braveheart, you guys are required reading!

DOB, #1 forever! You da best!

By Thrillhouse44

October 12, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this

Lew, I see that you’re almost as passionate about BBQ as the Braves. Here’s to ya.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)

October 12, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

ncscoots , I’m only right 90% of the time , just ask Scott Thorman :>)

By Shaun

October 12, 2007 1:45 PM | Link to this

ncscoots, I honestly try to have respectful disagreement. Then it becomes “I don’t care what Bill James says” or “sabermetrics is for the insane” instead of addressing my points which often times have little or nothing to do with sabermetrics or Bill James, per se. It becomes a personal attack of people trying to make me a member of some sabermetric occult.

By Lew

October 12, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this

Thank you, Scoots-well stated. Shaun’s 1:11 post reeks of the aformentioned smugness. I’m not open to expanding my knowledge? Gee, Shaun, were that true, I doubt I would have sought graduate degrees or have a library of over 1500 volumes (and still growing quite rapidly). I doubt greatly I would have continued to improve as an artist. The Wurlitzers would be nothing but stick figures, were this the case. The fact that I have written a book (which required research) and been published as an artist, more times that I can even remember, points to my total idiocy because I choose to reject Win Shares as a statistic.

Damn, Dude-not only are you smug, but you’re the most condescending SOB I’ve run into in much time. The problem is really that you actually think that you are expanding general knowledge-you’re not. As many have told you numerous times before, all you’re doing is espousing someone else’s theory that you accept as Gospel-the be all and end all of human baseball knowledge. Just who told you that this is so? If you truly didn’t want to keep on kicking that expired equine, you wouldn’t carry your ridiculous arguments forward for days at a time. I guess when 90% of the Denizens tell you they disagree, that means they are stupid, morons or cretins and incapable of any higher forms of thought and understanding and are totally clueless. Everyone is out of step except Shaun. Smug doesn’t begin to describe you.

By Lew

October 12, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this

Ma’am-Welcome back. How are you doing? Now Finkerman’s does have excellent pulled pork (must be because the Chef is German-the name comes from the owner, Mr. Fink and the Chef, Ms. Duderman) and it is cooked in the Eastern North Carolina method, but I like my sauce.

Scoots-Email me at lewhartman@comcast.net. I have a question for you.

By Shaun

October 12, 2007 2:05 PM | Link to this

ncscoots and Lew, I think the real problem is a lot of folks hate the messenger so they just ignore the message. Some want to criticize the ideas I bring up as “too sabermetric” instead of trying to figure out if they make sense and are logical.

Lew, have I ever used any of the following words: stupid, morons, cretins, incapable of any higher forms of thought and understanding, totally clueless. If I ever have I save it for something I know everyone would disagree with (Robert’s views of Bobby Cox maybe).

Problem is not that you reject Win Shares or other stats that folks have worked hard developing. The problem is you don’t seem to understand where they come from or how they came about or the reasons why they came about and you don’t care to, yet you still want to reject them as the most horrible thing that ever came along.

By Miscalculation

October 12, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

Only one of the biggest Braves stories of any of our lifetimes and no one is posting a new blog about it?

What’s up with that?

This blog is slower than…..

By Carolina Lady

October 12, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

Hi, Lew! Thanks! The German chef undoubtedly has impeccable taste since she knows her BBQ! :-))

By ncscoots

October 12, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this

I believe I might have to take issue with the characterization of mr baseball as a “know nothing hack”. Disagree with him on Schuerholz, if you wish (and I do), but the guy produces consistently good baseball content on the blog: sharp analysis and comment, and the much-more-than-occasional astute observation.

Don’t know his feelings on BBQ, though, so I might have to retract any and all compliments at some point in the future. Remains to be seen.

By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)

October 12, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this

Shaun , sabermetrics is misunderstood , therefore , many reject that which they cannot comprehend. Bill James Range Factor and Pythagorean Winning Percentage are two stats I agree with. It is of some merit that John Henry (owner of the Red Sox) hired Bill James in 2003 and the next year the Red Sox won the World Series. also , Billy Beane began applying sabermetrics principles to running the Oakland A’s back in the early nineties with positive results.

By Overlord

October 12, 2007 2:12 PM | Link to this

“We’re going to keep doing things the way we’ve been doing them,” Wren said. “The Braves way. It’s been working pretty well.”

While Schuerholz is willing to provide advice in player matters, calling himself a “mentor” and a “sounding board,” he made it clear that he won’t be looking over Wren’s shoulder.

Schuerholz’s door will be open. He won’t go knocking on Wren’s unless asked.

*”I let people establish themselves, do their jobs and support them,” Schuerholz said. *

By mr baseball

October 12, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this

David ATL-14:

Thank you for proving my point.

By Savannah Guy

October 12, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

Ready, set … start your Braves rumors Tonight on the O’Reilly Factor, David O’Brien takes on Mr. Baseball in a fair and balanced debate. The Notorious MIB will try to make sense of a self-professed baseball expert who carries a conventional wisdom spouting parrott on his head. Mr. baseball will challenge DOB to a motorcycle duel…DOB on a Harley…Mr.B on a Vespa. A fair and balanced battle will ensue…

This is how rumors begin, right?

By Shaun

October 12, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

JC Bradbury’s view of John Schuerholz’s legacy:

He deserves a lot of credit for keeping a winning team on the field, with only one losing season in 17 years. In terms of payroll, only during his first season did the Braves have a payroll below the league average. Now money alone is not enough to be successful on the field, but it doesn’t hurt your chances.

My verdict on his Braves tenure: good, but not great. I’m somewhat sorry to see him go, but I’m not as worried as Twins fans have to be with the departure of Terry Ryan. To be fair, I’m not too fond of his public persona—he might be a nice guy in private, but comes off as a bit smug in interviews—but I cannot deny that he got the job done.

By David O'Brien

October 12, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

NEW BLOG IS UP. Robert’s already soiled it, but oh well….

By Savannah Guy

October 12, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

Carolina Lady! At long last you return. I just knew something really good would happen today and you are it. By the way, I agree on the NC BBQ but you knew that.

I can just imagine coming into the blog after being away so long and landing right smack dab in the middle of a discussion about washing hands and bathroom hygene. You must have thought everyone here was crazy. Uh, you were right…but you knew that too. ; )

By TennesseePaul

October 12, 2007 2:28 PM | Link to this

Well sh!t. I had a question, but I see this has become the Payne Intervention blog. I’ll second Scoots on his post. Now on to the question…

Payne, what is your source for the CF numbers? You posted it up above (AVG/OBP/SLG).

I only ask because I went through the players, all those who play a signficant amount of time in CF (which excluded the likes of Willie Harris and his ilk), enough to qualify as a CF and they are different than the numbers you post…

The MLB average for Qualifying CF: .275/.343/.438

By Big Buck

October 12, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this

Before finalizing plans for an “in-person” meeting, ask yourselves this? Can you imagine spending an evening with some of these windbags without a “scroll” button? Me either! Get me a to-go plate.

By Lew

October 12, 2007 2:49 PM | Link to this

“I don’t care for the Murray Chass’s of the world who don’t understand the interest in trying to advance the understanding and knowledge even in something like baseball.”-Shaun

Dude, You are so absolutely accountant-like that it is becoming laughable. For your own edification- Words have much more than their intrinsic meanings. You compare me to someone who, respected though he is in his field of endeavor, you not only disagree with, but hold in total disdain (not to mention that when you say EVEN in something like baseball, you denigrate the sport, itself). That is what your words mean, whether or not you say them in so many words. “…Who don’t understand the interest in trying to advance knowledge and understanding.” You mean to tell me that isn’t an insult to me? That it doesn’t call my intelligence into question? To tell me I have no interest in advancing knowledge is NOT telling me I’m stupid, moronic or clueless? In my estimation, Shaun, that’s exactly what you said. It doesn’t even require reading between the lines-something you certainly never take into consideration. You’re talking to someone who majored in Art, English and Speech and Dramatic Arts and I understand allusion, symbolism and double entendre. You, apparently don’t.

It isn’t that there might not be some validity to some of the theories you use, but your approach and your incessant refusal to accept anyone else’s point of view is certainly not conducive to wanting to understand your points. You speak of accounting for different ballparks, I told you yesterday that whether or not you’re aware, is a discussion I heard over 40 years ago. It’s just that no one came up with (or really cared to come up with) a formula that formalized the notion. Like I said, you don’t need all the Stadium adjusted formulas to realize hitting Home Runs in Philadelphia is easier than hitting them in San Diego, at Petco. Observation could tell you that. Just watch a couple of games and look at basic hitting and pitching stats. They’ll tell you without all the other stuff.

No, your problem is exactly what Scoots called it-missionary zeal. You come on like an Evangelist and are ready to condemn anyone to the fires of baseball hell (probably Tampa Bay) if they dare to disagree with you or tell you that how they’ve looked at the game all of their lives is enough for them. And, like the Energizer Bunny, you keep going on and on and on, no matter how many of us may disagree with you, or flat out just don’t give a damn. Yes, you are smug. You are condescending. You are totally inflexible. Seems to me you’re the one with the problem-not those of us who disagree with you or find you exceedingly tedious. To think I watched over 300 baseball games this year and never once needed to know what anyone’s Win Shares were. Must make me the dumbest baseball fan alive. I guess I really didn’t understand what I was seeing.

By Glenn

October 13, 2007 5:52 AM | Link to this

Glavine signs and so does Mazzone and we will sign another pitcher with Andrew’s moola,WS here we come!