AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2007 > September > 20 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USHow much do Braves miss Leo?
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Judging from e-mails and comments some have posted here, I get the impression Braves fans have mixed opinions about pitching coach Roger McDowell’s performance in his first two seasons with the Braves, despite the praise he’s gotten from pitchers and team officials.
And believe me, I understand why many would view the Braves’ unparalleled pitching tradition under former pitching coach Leo Mazzone, see their relative mediocrity (and for many of the starters, worse than mediocre) in McDowell’s first two seasons, and come to the conclusion that it’s his fault, or at least in large part his fault.
It can’t help that folks who were so used to seeing Leo quoted so often here and on TV and radio, with his folksy demeanor and self-deprecating personality, hardly ever see McDowell interviewed on camera or hear his voice on radio, or even see him quoted in print at length.
But put aside the limited public presence for a moment, folks, because it really means absolutely nothing in terms of his job performance. He’s not paid to be interviewed, and most pitching coaches and hitting coaches don’t like to be front and center, they’re uncomfortable taking attention from the players and manager, I’m sure in part because they feel there’s better job security in laying low and just doing your job.
So let’s look at the pertinent stuff.
As I see it, all we can go on, really, are two things:
1. Statistics for Braves and Orioles pitchers in the past two years and in the years immediately before McDowell and Mazzone arrived in their new jobs (what the Braves did in the 1990s, when they had a budget that routinely ranked in the top three in baseball and had rotations better and deeper than all other teams in the modern era, is really not very relevant in comparisons to their current team);
2. What the pitchers are saying, on or off the record. Because believe me, when things go south, you can almost ALWAYS find folks willing to point a finger at a coach or manager, off the record at least, to try and defer some blame. That is, if there’s any dissension or problems in that regard.
Let me reiterate what I’ve said before: I and other reporters can’t find a pitcher, including some who’ve struggled, who’ll blame McDowell or even say they don’t want to talk about his performance, or even roll their eyes and say, no comment, etc. Folks, I’m giving it to you straight on that one. They really do seem to all like the guy and his methods.
Me, I’ve got no real relationship with him to convey to you much more than that he’s cordial enough, says hi when you greet him, etc. He’s the antithesis of Leo in that regard; Leo, I’d talk to almost daily. But again, it’s not the coach’s job or responsibility to be engaging with media members. It’s nice when they do, and I do like talking to Terry Pendleton a lot. But it’s not essential they do.
OK, a few stats: A lot of people recall that the Braves were far and away the best pitching staff in baseball over the 1991-2002 period. None other was even close over that period, either with its pitching staff as a whole or its starting rotations, in particular.
The Braves ranked third in the NL in 1991 in overall ERA and third in starters ERA, then ranked first in the NL in overall ERA in ’92, ’93, ’95, ’97, ’98, ’99, 2000, ’01, and ’02. The only years they didn’t lead the league in that 11-year span, they finished second (’94, ’96).
And in that 11-year span, the starters led the NL every season. Repeat, every season.
Amazing stuff, folk. Just amazing.
But people tend to forget that after the budget was cut, and there was no longer the funding to pay for rotations three- and four-deep with healthy, established veterans in their prime, the ERA streak ended.
In Leo’s final three seasons as Braves pitching coach, the pitching staff finished with these NL rankings: 2003, ninth in overall ERA (4.04) and seventh in starters ERA (4.16); 2004, first in overall ERA (3.74) and second in starters ERA (3.84); 2005, sixth in overall ERA (3.98) and third in starters ERA (3.65).
In Roger’s first two seasons as Braves pitching coach, the pitching staff ranked, in 2006, 10th in overall ERA (4.60) and ninth in starters ERA (4.71); and this season they’re seventh in overall ERA (4.16) and seventh in starters ERA (4.45).
It probably should be noted here, they’ve been without Mike Hampton in both of McDowell’s seasons. Hampton, after going 14-8 in 2003 and 13-9 in 2004, got hurt in 2005 and hasn’t pitched since late that season.
Meanwhile the bullpen, an area that the Braves never emphasized too much during their loaded-rotation era, was one they hoped would improve under McDowell, a former reliever.
Bullpen ERA isn’t the greatest indicator of success, but for what it’s worth: The Braves finished sixth in bullpen ERA in 2003, third in 2004 and 12th in 2005, Leo’s last three seasons.
They finished 11th in bullpen ERA in 2005 and are third this season.
In Baltimore’s last three seasons before Leo arrived, the Orioles in the American League finished 10th in overall ERA and 10th in starters ERA in 2003; seventh in overall ERA and 10th in starters ERA in 2004, and 10th in overall ERA and ninth in starters ERA in 2005.
In Leo’s two seasons there, they finished 13th (in a 14-team league) in overall ERA and 13th in starters ERA in 2006, and this season they’re 13th in overall ERA and ninth in starters ERA.
I don’t profess to know the ins and outs of the Orioles staff and challenges they’ve faced, so I decided just to look at starters who were there in the last year before Leo arrived and how the holdovers fared under his tutelage.
Erik Bedard was 6-8 with a 4.00 ERA in 24 starts in 2005, the last year before Leo arrived. Bedard was 15-11 with a 3.76 ERA in 2006, and he’s 13-5 with a 3.16 ERA this season.
Daniel Cabrera was 10-13 with a 4.52 ERA in 2005 before Leo, 9-10 with a 4.74 ERA in 2006, and 9-17 with a 5.51 ERA this season.
Bruce Chen was 13-10 with a 3.84 ERA in 2005 before Leo, and 0-5 with a 7.41 ERA in 12 starts last season and spent the rest of his time in the bullpen. He wasn’t re-signed.
Hayden Penn, the big Baltimore prospect the Braves pursued last winter, was 3-2 with a 6.34 ERA in eight starts as a rookie in 2005 before Leo. Penn was 0-4 with a 15.10 ERA in six starts in 2006, and hasn’t started in the majors this season.
That’s all I could find for starters who were there before Leo. Not much of a sample, so make of it what you want.
Now, the second part of this is an interview I did with John Smoltz a few days ago. John was the most-quoted pitcher after Leo left the Braves, mainly because he was the most-asked, having been with Leo all those years.
Smoltz’s answers to most questions about Leo were along the lines of, he’d be missed, he’d done a lot for Smoltz’s career, but the Braves would move on and be just fine without him.
And some took Smoltz’s silence on some Leo questions to indicate the veteran pitcher didn’t think too highly of some of the coach’s methods or his persona or whatever. People read what they wanted to read into it.
So I’m going to run the interview with Smoltz verbatim, at least his answers.
It was part of a bigger interview I did with Smoltz for a story to run at the end of the season, but I wanted to go ahead and run the part about Leo. I’ll paraphrase my questions, but not Smoltz’s answers, some of which ramble a bit (Smoltz does that, and it’s far more preferable to short, clipped responses; I’ll never complain about Smoltz being long-winded or roundabout in responses):
On the good-cop, bad-cop theory that some fans have come up with regarding the loss of Leo and how he was the need balance to manager Bobby Cox’s players-manager persona, and how that’s been sorely missed:
Smoltz: “You’ve seen this organization turn over a lot of people. Everybody has had a huge impact. He [Mazzone] had a huge impact, but his time … it was probably best to move on. For whatever reason.
“Leo is a mechanical guy. He was good at mechanics. But Leo would admit, he wasn’t going to teach you how to pitch. He wasn’t going to show you how to get hitters out. That wasn’t his forte. And I think with the emergence of some young pitchers, they needed a little bit more. They needed to be able to pitch with what they had. He was so used to great stuff, that it was probably difficult - it would have been difficult for me [in his shoes] — to see someone not have particularly great stuff.
“Everybody that’s been through here, with the exception of Bobby, who’s been here the same time, everybody had something to add. But as times have changed, the game has changed. The strike zone has changed, You have to adapt. And I think the adaptability was difficult for [Mazzone’s] mindset, and a younger mindset.
“I think that, more or less, to be fair about it, that’s what became difficult…. Take an older player, someone who’d had success — they’d have success [again under Mazzone]. But the younger player who was struggling with certain components of what we were trying to do — you now, if you’re talented enough that you can hit down-and-away and down-and-away and down-and-away [in the strike zone], you can fit it [with Mazzone].
“But if you can’t, you’ve got to find a way to adjust to him, as a player.”
So Roger has, in your view, had nothing to do with the disappointments of past two years, that it’s been injuries and whatnot and not the absence of Leo?
Smoltz: “Absolutely. I think what Roger’s done is given a player an insight that will help them from a pitching standpoint — how do you get guys out with what you’ve got, and how do you improve on it? Where, again, everybody has something different. You go to 25 different pitching coaches, you’re going to get 25 different ideas, which is great, but in no way does that….
“This is the thing. In Leo’s last three years, we were pretty bad. Our ERA went the other way. It wasn’t just Leo, it was the product of some of the things that were changing here — philosophies, budgets. It’s not a blame or pointing the finger at anybody, it’s just the way it evolved. And you just didn’t have your power arms, your guys who could strike guys out when they needed to.
“I think any time in sports when someone’s spent a long time somewhere, i.e. Glavine, Leo — there’s always going to be a bigger story [when they leave], it’s always going to be ‘Oh, my God.’ And it’s always going to be more emphasis on trying to figure out why it happened.
And sometimes the media will take silence as a negative thing.
It’s just one of those deals where, if I’m fortunate enough to have accolades come my way, [Mazzone] be there. That’s how important he was for my in my career. It’s just that, uh— I don’t mean this in the wrong way, but when that story becomes bigger than what it is….”
He left it at that, folks. Draw your own conclusions. But I will say, that viewpoint is shared by several other veteran pitchers I’ve talked to.
OK, I’m gonna be at the ballpark tonight, but all this week I’m working on some interviews for feature stories to run next week. Carroll’s got the game coverage, and she’ll be responding to any in-game blog queries and such.
Hope the Smoltz interview helps, at least in some small way, to allow you all to understand the sentiments of those who worked under Leo the longest.
”CRY, CRY, CRY” by Johnny Cash
Everybody knows where you go when the sun goes down.
I think you only live to see the lights of town.
I wasted my time when I would try, try, try.
When the lights have lost their glow, you’re gonna cry, cry, cry.
I lie awake at night and wait ‘til you come in.
You stay a little while and then you’re gone again.
Every question that I ask, I get a lie, lie, lie.
For every lie you tell, you’re gonna cry, cry, cry.
You’re gonna cry, cry, cry and you’ll cry alone,
When everyone’s forgotten and you’re left on your own.
You’re gonna cry, cry, cry.
Soon your sugar-daddies will all be gone.
You’ll wake up some cold day and find you’re alone.
You’ll call to me but I’m gonna tell you: “Bye, bye, bye,”
When I turn around and walk away, you’ll cry, cry, cry,
When your fickle little love gets old, no one will care for you.
You’ll come back to me for a little love that’s true.
I’ll tell you no and you gonna ask me why, why, why?
When I remind you of all of this, you’ll cry, cry, cry.
You’re gonna cry, cry, cry and you’ll cry alone,
When everyone’s forgotten and you’re left on your own.
You’re gonna cry, cry, cry.
You’re gonna cry, cry, cry and you’ll want me there,
It’ll hurt when you think of the fool you’ve been.
You’re gonna cry, cry, cry.
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Comments
By dadgum
September 20, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this
We need pitching. NOt a guru pitching coach. McD is fine. Let’s leave him alone. He is not the problem.
By TennesseePaul
September 20, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this
Good to have ya back on the Beat DOB
By The Grinch
September 20, 2007 3:01 PM | Link to this
Mornin, all. Looks like I might be first again. Whooooo-eee. Time for a beer.
By eric the elder
September 20, 2007 3:09 PM | Link to this
Enjoyed the interview, DOB, but it reminds me that when a team scuffles through a season, the focus seems to shift to its history.
Every time I hear Maddux-Glavine-Smoltz, I sink lower in my chair. That was the distant past, and that past is becoming more distant every day. Still, the fond memories might serve as a bridge to the coming off season when we will all blow on the embers and try to ignite our hopes for next year.
By Lee in S. GA
September 20, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this
I think Roger has done a fairly reasonable job considering some of the talent he has had to work with.
I prefer Leo not to come back and with Cox’s future in doubt as manager with this team beyond next season, would Leo even consider coming back to the Braves.
The days of Glavine, Maddox, Smoltz, Cox and Leo are over. Cherish and remember the moments but time to move on. Dam any of you ever been through a divorce or 2 or 3 …………….
Grinch…..definitely time for a beer or 20 as Hoyt on John Boy and Billy would say.
By MegaBravesFan
September 20, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this
Eric the Elder*
Can you imagine how the Reds feel about the “Big Red Machine”… Must get old…
By Jim
September 20, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this
Leo being gone ain’t the problem (not that he isn’t a very good pitching coach). Roger being here ain’t the problem either, as apparently he’s a very good pitching coach too. The problem is that we had the luxury of having one of the greatest sets of 1-2-3 starters in baseball history for a long time, along with some very good back-of-the-rotation pitchers along the way. …..and we got spoiled. Now that all of that is gone we can see just how lucky we were all those years. The second problem has been the lower payroll the last few years. Let’s hope that with the slightly higher payroll we should have next year that John S. can secure a solid legitimate top of the rotation starter this winter to join Smoltz and Hudson. Unfortunately this will probably mean that Renteria gets traded, but we don’t have the Yankee’s or Red Sox’s payroll, so that is probably the way it will have to happen.
By keylargo25
September 20, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this
I posted this yesterday but in case some of you missed it here is how poor AJ is making out on his current contract. Now I know why he needs 20M a year- so he can keep up the payments.
http://www.seehowtheylive.com/aJones.php
By T-Bone
September 20, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this
Let Andruw walk. Take his money and sign Tex. And then do whatever you have to do to get starting pitching.
By Henry
September 20, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this
Carroll, DOB’s blog says you’ve got the gam coverage tonight. Who, in your opinion, has the best gams on the team? Are you more into thighs or calves? And how are your gams doing?
Henry
By Hoosier Aaron
September 20, 2007 3:45 PM | Link to this
Just a simple question - Has any Braves pitcher improved under Roger McDowell?
I do not expect the Orioles staff to automatically become 1st in the American League because Leo is wearing that ugly hat. The pitchers must be able to locate and they must be able to pitch to their defense. Is the Orioles scouting as good as the Braves? Maybe, maybe not.In my opinion - it’s a total package. Defense plays a big roll in ERA. I will always contend no matter what AJ’s batting average is - the team ERA will go up when he’s gone. Just this series against the Marlins - AJ made two catches ONLY AJ makes - on every other team the marching band it getting ready because there’s a parade around the bases.
So - no matter what Smolties says or what the stats are - the question is - are any Braves pitchers better because of McDowell?
By dadgum
September 20, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this
What a great day…a quasi-regular is actually the first post on the graet DOB blog. Not quite like winning the Led Zeppelin ticket lottery (I was one of the 30 mil who tried) but a win none the less.
By Joe Morgan
September 20, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this
I remember the Big Red Machine quite well. No one could touch us. Johnny and I took on all comers and destroyed each and every last one of them. We didn’t need Moneyball to help us win. We were just amazingly consistent players.
Gary Sheffield would have been a good teammate to have in Cincinnati. That’s because he’s consistent. He knows how to play the game. Because he knows how to play the game, Sheff is consistent in playing the game the way it should be played. I’ve never read Moneyball before, but it’s wrong.
Give me pitchers with a lot of wins and eight Gary Sheffields to back them up and I’ll win consistently. You know why? Well, it’s because I’m in the Hall of Fame. It’s an exclusive club. Ask Moneyball if it’s in the Hall of Fame. If it is, I’ll consistently read it.
By 3trees
September 20, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this
Grinch - Hello back at ‘cha from the previous blog. Just been a Costello fan since he came out. Oh, well… You play git, right. If you haven’t, check out some of the Jeff Beck stuff on YouTube. Oy! Not bad for a 60-somehting.
I’ve been around, but the atmosphere in here was rough for a while with all the p**’ matches and whatnot. This team was hard to watch sometimes, but I’m hopeful for next season. Some of the young’uns will have been around about 3 years. Hope they mature a bit more at the plate and a lot on the mound. Well, except Smoltz. I’d guess he’d hope to “un-mature” a bit.
Let’s finish strong. Go Braves!
By Paladin
September 20, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this
Carroll I hope your gams are doing as well as Henry’s gums. Fast and loose.
By Greg in TN
September 20, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this
Interesting observations, DOB. Thanks for the information and for posting Smoltz’s responses in terms of Roger.
I look at how Leo has done in Baltimore and how things have fared here in his wake and I am convinced that nothing would be different had Leo been here instead of Roger.
Many point back to the heydey of the 90s and the success we had with the three-headed starting pitching monster that was Glavaddoltz and wonder why we can’t have success on that level again. They don’t understand that a pitching staff of that depth and calibur comes along once a generation. Hey, if we could have an ace to pitch the first three nights and then have a couple of number twos pitch and round out the starting staff, I’d jump at that too, but those days are long over, gang.
Mr Baseball, think what you’d like about how much money was available to JS. I’d think that way myself if it was clear that Time Warner’s mandate to JS and Terry McGuirk was that they could spend what they’d like or a given amount over what was reportedly an $80 million limit on player salaries and they ignored it and just came up with that on their own. Every piece of information that came out of Time Warner in both business and sports news in terms of payroll suggests otherwise.
By Paladin
September 20, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this
I retract my “fast and loose” statement with apologies. I was giving more thought to the “gums” and less to the “gams”. Let’s change it to “with shoe(s) attached.”
By Ed Glennon
September 20, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this
We need to start pulling for the Rally Killer the next ten days. He has been so bad he may accept arbitration and we are stuck with him. You can see him swinging for the fences so he can get 30. The last two meaningless homers prove that. Let’s hope he gets it so Scot B can go to one of his favorite dummies in Texas or Boston and ask for big bucks. Wouldn’t you love to see Manny, Andruw and JD in the same outfield. At least Andruw would probably play everyday.
By Leo and Roger
September 20, 2007 4:09 PM | Link to this
Most players didn’t actually like Vince Lombardi either, but he won games. He reemed their butts and demanded everything. I would probably wash out under a guy like that, but it works sometimes, if you actually know your stuff. Tom Coughlin? Same approach, but he’s no Vince Lombardi. I’m sure that the players are pulling for a likable guy like Roger. Heck you want a good guy like Roger to succeed, but where are the results? Evidently, like Leo,(according to Smoltz) Roger can’t teach someone to pitch either!
Remember when Leo left? It was the “off the record” reporting that said Leo couldn’t relate to youngsters like HoRam and Kyle Davies. It was suggested that those two would come into their own with Roger. Guess what? It didn’t happen. So I guess Leo wasn’t the problem with Davies and HoRam? Now HoRam, Davies AND Leo are all non-Braves.
One thing I defy anyone to deny is that Leo COULD do wonders with a reclaim project! In the years when Smoltz was hurt and immediately after, there was always a reclaim project that came in and refound something. Look at Burkett, Jared Wright and a couple others. The Braves could pencil in 3 decent starters and Leo would get one off the scrap heap to make a good top 4. Leo got the credit for finding something mechanical in those reclaims and fixing it so they were productive again. So you see Smoltzie, sometimes mechanics are worth considering.
So ask yourself this???? What if Leo had been around to fix some “reclaim” up to be an effective number 3 or 4? Don’t think this season would have been different? Just one more decent pitcher?
Maybe Leo isn’t God, but God bless Smoltz, his guy Roger isn’t either. For the most part, this staff has been a mess for two years. Roger hasn’t shown that he has the answers.
By h_charles
September 20, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this
DOB — Glad you finally brought this topic up.
Certainly, some good points. However, there is a piece of the puzzle left out here.
In the Braves incredible run under Leo, our staff, particularly in the pen, wasn’t all high dollar, big budget guys. Leo was able to get amazing performances out of scrubs like Lightenberg, and Scott Hammond — low dollar guys that Leo made VERY good, at least briefly.
Leo also was able to get a lot out of our homegrown power arms like Rocker and Wohlers.
By contrast, these Braves rely almost exclusively on pitchers who were developed elsewhere. The reliable pen arms, save our Aussie, are all established arms from other teams. They didn’t need work. By contrast, the arms from our system, Devine, Davies, James, Yates, Berry, Reyes, Cormier — you name it — all have stunted growth. None are where they could be.
It is hard not to wonder if McDowell doesn’t play some role there. The fact is that all other contenders (and many non-contenders) have serious, consistent arms developed internally. The Braves clearly have struggled there, and it is either poor scouting or poor development.
Questioning Roger in part is certainly logical here.
While one can argue whether Roger has the talent on the staff, it is clear that to date Roger has yet to make one of our arms a star, much less take a cast-off and make them a good contributor. Braves teams of yore did both on a regular basis. There must be some reason, and payroll isn’t the whole picture.
By N8
September 20, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this
Well done DOB.
I’ve argued until I’ve been blue in the face with people on this blog, basically stating what you just did (as far as the numbers go). I’ve compared the Baltimore pitching before and after Leo arrived. I’ve compared our pitching the last few years he was here with after he’d left.
The numbers are there for the taking people. Do the research. The only thing I wasn’t able to portray was your interview with Smoltz. If ANYBODY would know, he would. Hell, Hudson declined didn’t “improve” under Leo. In fact, couldn’t his “turnaround” be credited to Roger?
Simply put, Leo (like Bobby and us fans) benefited from having 3 HOF bound pitchers anchor a rotation for over a decade. I’ve said it 1000 times, I’ll say it 1000 more if I have to.
L8r.
By Leo and Roger
September 20, 2007 4:20 PM | Link to this
h_charles
Amen, well said.
By Ed Glennon
September 20, 2007 4:22 PM | Link to this
Leo was a great character and the Braves owe him a lot. The fact that Kyle Daview didn’t get along with him makes me like Leo even more. Davies is now happy and content playing for a loosing team.
By ernesto
September 20, 2007 4:22 PM | Link to this
Maybe Leo wasn’t all that, maybe McD isn’t as “eh” as he seems, but Leo had some good reclamation stories in guys like Burkette, Wright, Remlinger, Reynolds, etc.
Maybe a mechanics guy was what those guys needed, I don’t think we’ve found out what kind of guy McDowell is yet - to say he’s going out there and telling pitchers how to get guys out…well, that must have been the 4 or 5 games I missed this year.
I have seen him go out there and then the pitcher serves up a dinger shortly there after. Seen that a few times.
By \\\\\\\\\\BERIGAN//////////
September 20, 2007 4:25 PM | Link to this
Interesting blog as usual DOB… and Smoltz’s comments on Leo dealing with people with lesser stuff. Cuz that is what it looked like was Leo’s forte, to this layperson’s eyes. The Damian Moss’s, John Burkett’s seemed to do much better under his tutelage. Steve Trachsel seems like someone that was “better” under Leo. 4.74 ERA for the Muts, and not offered a contract, then had a 4.48 ERA for Baltimore(better earlier in the year) and when you consider he had to face the Yankees and Red Sox that 4.48 looks pretty good.
But, I thought he’d do more good in Baltimore than he clearly has…..
By The Grinch
September 20, 2007 4:36 PM | Link to this
I’ll definitely agree on Jeff Beck, 3Trees; the dude always has rocked. I remember being blown away by his fusion stuff back on those big black vinyl cd’s we used to have.
Later, all; maybe we can scratch out another win tonight.
By Double Deuce
September 20, 2007 4:48 PM | Link to this
I think Leo was a capable pitching coach who benefited from having three guys who carried the staff. I think the telling detail is that neither of the big three give him ringing endorsements for their careers, but simply say he was an “integral” part of their careers. I think they made him rather than the reverse.
My only concern for McDowell is I don’t understand how a pitching coach who is supposed to be so in tune with his pitchers can allow Bobby to be the one to decide who’s next out of the pen. Isn’t it the pitching coaches job to know who can and can’t go, know who matches up where?
By Renegator
September 20, 2007 4:49 PM | Link to this
h_charles:
Good point about how all the home grown pitchers have really struggled. Seems like they aren’t learning control in our farm system. I agree its either a scounting problem or a development problem.
By knowitall
September 20, 2007 4:51 PM | Link to this
h_charles,
You can’t really say the Leo was able to get more out of those bullpens that Roger does today. The bullpen this year simply has been over worked. No one can deny that. Your bullpen looks a lot better when your starters are consistenly giving you 7,8 or 9 innings a night. There were less opportunites for them to screw things up back then.
By Thrillhouse44
September 20, 2007 4:54 PM | Link to this
If Leo had turned the O’s around, I could understand people wishing he was back. However, they really haven’t made any great strides since he showed up in Baltimore. Do you really think Leo would have helped the back of the rotation this year? Seems like Davies would have had a meltdown in the first month.
Here’s to another win tonight!
By Interested Observer
September 20, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this
Apparently, Rafael Soriano has been suspended for 4 games for intentionally hitting Uggla the other day. He has appealed though. I don’t think Soriano intentionally hit him. I think his intent was to miss his head by about a half inch.
I don’t believe there was any discipline for Kim hitting three Braves and throwing behind Andruw’s head in the same game.
By GSU-Lee
September 20, 2007 5:07 PM | Link to this
DOB or Carrol, What’s the deal with Soriano being suspended? They said he threw at Uggla on Monday. I don’t remember that. I heard he was appealing it, so what’s going on?
By IAMWMD2
September 20, 2007 5:08 PM | Link to this
I think Leo would have at least been able to convince Bobby Cox and management that a pitcher was needed early in the season
By Shaun
September 20, 2007 5:13 PM | Link to this
Renegator, by a scouting and development “problem” you mean they haven’t been lucky enough to draft a good pitcher, keep him healthy and get him through the gauntlet that is the minor leagues and into the majors for a significant period of success, right? I think they share this “problem” with, I don’t know, maybe every other team out there.
By Sam
September 20, 2007 5:13 PM | Link to this
Leo may not have made an enormous difference for the most talented of Braves pitchers but, despite what Smoltz said, can we really call the Braves success with guys like Shane Reynolds, John Burkett, Jaret Wright, Damian Moss, Darren Holmes, Chris Hammond et al just a coincidence? Maybe those guys flourished here (in stark contrast to what they had done before and what they would go on to do) because of Bobby’s steady hand in letting them keep the role even if they struggled a few times. Doesn’t some of it have to go to Leo though? I dunno, seems like a bit of a stretch to throw Leo under the bus just because the Orioles have a crummy staff. I would be the first to point out that all the cases of success mentioned above were aided by the fact that the rest of the rotation and/or pen was always rock solid or at least above average. Thus, making a gamble on 1/5 of the staff or 1/5 of the bullpen was a heck of a lot easier than trying to run 10 “project” pitchers out there at once.
By Shaun
September 20, 2007 5:16 PM | Link to this
IAMWMD2, yeah, they really needed to be convinced. I’m sure they didn’t realize it. It has nothing to do with it being nearly impossible to get a pitcher worth anything for equal value, I’m sure.
By Kentavo
September 20, 2007 5:19 PM | Link to this
Lookit, you don’t even have to go back to the Smoltz-Glavine-Maddux heyday to figure out why our rotation sux now and how we won the divisions, even in 2005. The years we won the division, we still had capable - if not stellar - major league-proven starting pitchers in the forms of Wright, Hampton, Ortiz, Thompson, and got surprise boosts from Ramirez and Sosa.
Compare those guys to the crapshoot that is the Cormier-Redman-Carlyle-Reyes-Davies abonination.
And in the heyday, we had 4-5 guys, backend of the rotation, filled out by the likes of Avery, Nagle, Ashby, John Burkett, much more accomplished than Cormier-Carlyle-et al.
By don
September 20, 2007 5:19 PM | Link to this
Few individuals have received more credit for doing less than has Mazzone. His main accomplishment is staying out of the way of the pitching staffs which were anchored by three H of F pitchers and a bevy of other top flight lesser lights.
McDowell isn’t much but Mazzone wasn’t much better- just lucky to have the arms.
By keylargo25
September 20, 2007 5:20 PM | Link to this
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is that not only have the Braves primarily drafted position players with their #1 pick but that pick has usually been about #26 or so. In other words they are far from sure about what they will end up with. This is a price you pay for winning since the early nineties. You would have to conclude that drafting position players early is their draft strategy
By Coach (Lets Go Braves in 2008)
September 20, 2007 5:21 PM | Link to this
That is an interesting perspective from John Smoltz. So , I’m not going to beat around the bush. Leo Mazzone was responsible for the decision making process during the game when it came time to pull the starter or when to bring in the relief pitcher. He was and is in my opinion , much better at evaluating when to make those critical decisions. for whatever reason , Cox and McDowell have not been as good at it. I can point out 12 to 15 games this season that should have been wins. Cox and Mazzone had chemistry and it left with Leo. 2005 , the Braves division streak ends , Leo leaves for Baltimore. Coincidence ? I think not. look at the way Cox has abused his bullpen , Peter Moylan in particular. The results of 2006-2007 have less to do with Roger McDowell and more to do with Bobby Cox. In other words , Cox hasn’t delegated the same responsibility to his new pitching Coach and it is blatantly obvious to this fan.
By Lew
September 20, 2007 5:24 PM | Link to this
Grinch-Jeff Beck is the best guitarist I’ve ever seen in concert (in that he could do more with a guitar). He didn’t just make it talk and sing, he made it have multiple orgasms. Totally unbelievable-and Stevie Ray was the rest of the show. An absolutely mind blowing night of music.
Shaun-The difference is that to come up with an hypothesis, one must actually have an original thought first, unlike analysis or reading Billy Beane.
Mr. Baseball-No, the injuries out of spring training were not an excuse, but an explanation of why JS couldn’t get replacements on short notice. As for having money to get Tex and Dotel at the deadline and only Redman before-Dude, let’s not be disingenuous here-we had an ownership change midway through the season that obviously increased our payroll to make the acquisition of Tex and Dotel possible (and an increase I feel will lead to Tex’s signing long term). This $$$$ was not available from TW, which is why we ended up with Redman. You’re just looking for a reason to come down on JS. I doubt you or any one else could have done better. As far as not getting some pitcher you think they should have-you have no idea why or why not any player is or is not signed. Maybe the Braves didn’t want Kyle Lohse (eg), or maybe Cincinnati didn’t like what the Braves offered. There could be many reasons for not having signed someone you think was all theirs for the taking.
Ten Paul-I just got a list of the potential free agents. I will do some analysis and let you know if I think any would be worth pursuing. I just don’t know until I check out some stats. There might be a decent #3-4 option in the group/ We’ll see. Nonetheless, I just don’t think we can get what we are looking for by trading Renteria. We’re pretty much limited to dealing with NL teams, most of whom have good to great SS and few of whom have any worthwhile pitching they would be willing to give up. Another possibility-I do think the Braves tried to do a deal at the deadline with Cin.. I think maybe they tried for Arroyo or Harang and ran out of time. Maybe in the offseason, when theyhave more time to do it right. Arroyo in the number 3 spot with Chuck going 4 and then the rest of the others fighting it out for five might just do the trick.
By kevin
September 20, 2007 5:26 PM | Link to this
if the 3,4,5 starters would have averaged 6 innings a game instead of 5, you bullpen would have pulled almost 100 innings less as a collective group. That means each pitcher would have 10 or more less innings of ear and tear on their arms. That would have made a huge difference.
Next year the braves have to pick up a couple of guys who can eat innings as starters. That is why burhle, livan hernandez and cc sabathia appeal to me. Give this staff two guys that will eat 200 innings , and this team would definitely be in the post season. They just need to make sure and not to go two lefty heavy as it looks like the pen has 3 good leftys when gonzalez comes back.
By Lew
September 20, 2007 5:28 PM | Link to this
I think the problems at the back end of the rotation are what Leo fixed for years. Burkett, Ashby, Wright, etc., were perfect examples. Not much coaching necessary for the likes of Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz. We never had back end of the rotation troubles with Leo, though, mechanical engineer that he was. He might have helped Redman.
By Spinelli
September 20, 2007 5:30 PM | Link to this
It does not matter who the pitching coach is if the pitchers cannot hit their target or keep the ball down.Essetially it is the talent that comes through. The pitcher JS should go after is Carlos Silva. I believe he is the best that will be on the open market (except maybe Glavin) He is a sinker ball pitcher so he shouldn’t give up many home runs which for the most part has killed the 3-5 slots in the rotation.
By Efrim
September 20, 2007 5:37 PM | Link to this
Rotoworld.com
MLB suspended RHP Rafael Soriano for four games for throwing at and hitting Dan Uggla on Monday.
Three Braves had been hit in the game, so Soriano decided to take some revenge. Now it’s going to cost Atlanta its best reliever four games. Soriano wasn’t ejected after hitting Uggla on Monday, but he did deserve some punishment for going at Uggla as high as he did.
Well that sucks. Looks like Moylan will have to close.
By Ed Glennon
September 20, 2007 5:41 PM | Link to this
Does anyone remember who Warren Spahn’s pitching coach was?
By \\\\\\\\\\BERIGAN//////////
September 20, 2007 5:42 PM | Link to this
By Shaun September 20, 2007 5:13 PM | Link to this Renegator, by a scouting and development “problem” you mean they haven’t been lucky enough to draft a good pitcher, keep him healthy and get him through the gauntlet that is the minor leagues and into the majors for a significant period of success, right? I think they share this “problem” with, I don’t know, maybe every other team out there.
Shaun,
You think a team like the Red Sox are “lucky” to have folks like Jon Lester , Clay Buchholz , Jonathan Papelbon and Craig Hansen???(Yet another starter with a mid to upper 90’s fastball in their system) No Shaun, they spend more on their minor league system than we do. They offer bigger bonuses than the Braves have in the past several years, even going against the wishes of Selig(Yankees do the very same thing)
Speaking of the Yankees, Tyler Clippard , Philip Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, all studs. Throw hard. Just dumb luck clearly. And Money.
By Shaun
September 20, 2007 5:42 PM | Link to this
Lew, I’d rather be unoriginal than think RBI measure hitter performance or that a team needs speed from the leadoff spot to be successful or that Bobby Cox is a bad manager or that the Braves have an inconsistent offense or that the best team always wins in the regular season or post-season or that flukes don’t play a pretty significant role in the outcome of lots of baseball games or that certain major league player are more clutch than others.
By \\\\\\\\\\BERIGAN//////////
September 20, 2007 5:44 PM | Link to this
Eh, screwed up… Ian Kennedy was the Yankee prospect who has pitched so well of late, not Tyler Clippard.
By Shaun
September 20, 2007 5:49 PM | Link to this
Lew, because you don’t read things about advanced statistical research doesn’t mean anyone who does and it makes a lot of sense to him/her and he/she understands it is unoriginal.
By Sam
September 20, 2007 5:51 PM | Link to this
HI Gang,
Let’s forget about Leo and talk about AJ. He is the main reason why the Braves are 5 1/2 games behind. What Andruw should do and this is my opinion…he should tell Scott Boras to take a hike and he should take a company discount and resign with the Braves. Now if that was me… I think I would sign with the Bravos.
By james
September 20, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this
The biggest difference in the with-Leo years and after-Leo years is mental preparedness and mental edge. Leo’s group had it not matter the stats. They won when necessary (excuse the playoffs). With McDowell, that is the most noticeable lack. He cannot prepare the staff mentally. maybe a couple of more years down the road, he can. Losing Leo was the biggest change and challenge the Braves have had to deal with. To me, it is the most glaring.
By Shaun
September 20, 2007 5:54 PM | Link to this
BERIGAN, you just named two teams out of 30. Also, if two of those pitchers are consistently good at the major league level, that will be a success.
You could have said the same thing about ten years ago about Isringhausen, Wilson and Pulsipher, couldn’t you? The Mets were great at developing pitchers, weren’t they?
By Tyler
September 20, 2007 5:55 PM | Link to this
Theres a lot of moves we could make. Honestly, I think a deal with the Reds should be for Harang and no other. He should be someone they should seriously shoot for. The trading pieces are Renteria or Escobar or Lillbridge, Brandon Jones, Prado, Dan Smith, Reyes, Thorman, Harris and Diaz. A trade could happen for him, but unlikely. Arroyo may be the next best thing. If not, the Giants should be our next target. They have Cain, Lincecum, and Lowry along with Rajai Davis.
By Lew
September 20, 2007 5:57 PM | Link to this
Shaun-Re: your 5:42. Your point being? Just who said anything about any of those examples being original thought? You certainly never heard any of that from me (other than using RBI and Runs scored DOES give a fair indication of productivity). Come to think of it, none of those points have even been raised in our discussions today. What exactly, do any of those examples have to do with a philosophical discussion of original thought, anyway? Go check and see what Money Ball has to say. Consult with Billy Beane. You’ll never come up with a rational argument without someone else’s input. You’ve proven that time and again.
By Shaun
September 20, 2007 5:58 PM | Link to this
Lew, I guess every scientist in the world is unoriginal because they rely on analysis and other scientist.
Also, I don’t know that I’ve ever read anything by Billy Beane except maybe an interview. Has he written a book? Maybe he has, I don’t know.
By Ralph
September 20, 2007 6:02 PM | Link to this
Leo was pitching coach in the golden era, of the Braves organization, when they when and spend money for a decent pitching, ever when they didn’t have much of a reliever, they really didn’t need one, the majority of the time, because their starter when longer. Roger is a pitching coach in a descending time for the Braves, when this organization doesn’t want or care about spending money to get to a good starter and a couple of good relievers. If you are going to blame the pitching coach, you’ll have to blame the the manager, the hitting coach, the third base coach, etc. At present the Braves relievers are the bottom of the barrel, but in the last couple of games they have done a decent job, even if it wasn’t against a top notch team. When a team such as the Braves belonging to a company, who uses the team as a tax write off, and they spend only what their greedy little mind’s will minimums the cost, you have have the pitching staff of the Braves. And as far as the hope of making this a positive season, it just too little too late. You are not going to have a winning season with two good pitchers and a couple of hitters. 2007 is a repeat of 2006, and let’s hope 2008 isn’t a repeat of 2007, or we’ll being hearing the same crap all over again, the Braves organization is so good at.
By Luther
September 20, 2007 6:09 PM | Link to this
Back before the Braves Blog, when talk radio and the AJC vent were the only places for Braves fans to whine, Bobby used to get killed for leaving in his pitchers too long. I mean that was the first thing I would hear from everyone of my friend’s moms that had recently jumped on the Braves bandwagon from 91-95. Now that people are saying that Leo was making the changes back the, I think we need to apologize to Bobby. Good to know that he is now responsible for these moves and we can confidently blame him. Either that or he has always been the manager with final say, though he was willing to take suggestions.
By Shaun
September 20, 2007 6:10 PM | Link to this
Lew, again, I’d rather rely on people smarter than me and verify it with the evidence I see (if those two things match up, I don’t think I can deny it) than be “original.”
By Lew
September 20, 2007 6:11 PM | Link to this
Shaun-Re: your 5:49. It doesn’t mean you’ve ever had an original thought, either. Besides, who told you I never read statistical analysis, studies or do research? Dude, what is your level of education? I’ve been through a Master’s Degree. It’s virtually impossible to not have to read statistical analysis to do some of the research necessary to write what is required of you at the post graduate level. I’ve never had a statistics course, but don’t suppose I never need to rely on stats upon occasion. I’m having to use studies and stats as part of the book I’m writing now, as a matter of fact. I just use them to back up my original thought. A means to an end, as it were, as opposed to the end, in and of itself- like you view them. I swear if you ever had a crisis situation, you’d die while trying to analyze the situation. Sometimes (most of the time, actually) you need to act (use original thought) and not just analyze. Actually, this argument is going nowhere. You would have to have the capabiltiy to think original thoughts to understand the difference-something obviously not in your possession.
By tim
September 20, 2007 6:12 PM | Link to this
You’re joking, right? Leo is doing a heck of a job in Baltimore.
The problem isn’t the pitching coach, it’s the MANAGER and his staying with the guy way too long when he doesn’t have it, or pulling the pitcher after ONE batter, even though he got an out.
By Coach (Braves/MLB press release)
September 20, 2007 6:13 PM | Link to this
afael Soriano of the Atlanta Braves has been suspended for four games and fined an undisclosed amount for intentionally hitting Dan Uggla of the Florida Marlins with a pitch in the top of the ninth inning of Monday’s game at Turner Field. Bob Watson, Vice President of On-Field Operations for Major League Baseball, made the announcement.
Soriano’s suspension had been scheduled to begin tonight, when the Braves host the Milwaukee Brewers. However, he has filed an appeal. Thus, his suspension will be held in abeyance until the process is complete.
By Shaun
September 20, 2007 6:15 PM | Link to this
I’d rather be right and humble than wrong and “original”
By \\\\\\\\\\BERIGAN//////////
September 20, 2007 6:16 PM | Link to this
Shaun,
The two teams I mentioned also spend money, big money getting the best arms. Well, the Tigers have done the same thing as well. Andrew Miller, Justin Verlander, Joel Zumaya,…paid a lot for their top picks. Po’ed Selig as I mentioned before. We just look for local guys these days it seems. Hard throwers not a top priority. Signablity is.
Comparing draft picks now Vs. 10+ years ago isn’t the same either, is it? Teams by and large are better judges of talent, and how that talent will pan out these days. At least the winning clubs can.
By Rob
September 20, 2007 6:20 PM | Link to this
Rumor I hear..is that the Mets are willing to pay Smoltz, Glavin and Maddox to finish out their careers there next season. Win a world series and they all retire and go into the hall the same year! that would be amazing! All the talk of the Mets not resigning Glavin is smoke!…this will happen!!!!
By Shaun
September 20, 2007 6:22 PM | Link to this
Lew, that’s what I’m talking about—It’s against my principals to use stat to backup my “original thoughts.” I would rather use stats to answer questions or to discover if my hypothesis is true or false, however you want to phrase it. If you disagree, fine. But I don’t agree with using stats to back up my opinions. I would rather use stats to form opinion, where things like baseball are concerned. We’re not talking about prom dates or suicide, where you can’t rely on analysis. We’re talking about baseball here.
By the bottom line
September 20, 2007 6:22 PM | Link to this
no excuses. macdowell ain’t getting it done.
time for cox and his motley crew of coaches to move on. all of them.
bye bye.
By Lew
September 20, 2007 6:24 PM | Link to this
Shaun-There is one big difference between the two of us that may well be the crux of the situation- I don’t think there are that many people that much smarter than I am. I feel capable of holding my own intellectually with damn near anyone out there. Hell, I even understand what Journalist Bob is saying (most of the time). I even understand what YOU say. You obviously, have intellectual doubts. I don’t. I understand statistics and statistical analysis. You don’t understand original thought. I’d try to make it clear to you, but it’s like explaining what red looks like to someone blind from birth. How exactly do you do that? With charts and graphs? Maybe Billy Beane could do it for you.
By Shaun
September 20, 2007 6:25 PM | Link to this
BERIGAN, there’s three teams out of 30. And again, if one of those three pitchers succeed in the majors consistently for the Tigers, that would be a success.
And I thought you were saying there is a development and scouting “problem” not a financial problem. Which is it?
By dadgum
September 20, 2007 6:25 PM | Link to this
In regards to the impending Renteria trade. Expect a package deal there with some pitching prospects. Something along the lines of Boyer, Devine, Reyes, et al. The Braves may even sweeten the deal with an outfielder like Harris. The Braves will be looking at something along the lines of a Scott Kazmir or Justin Verlander type #1 or 2 starter. Certainly nothing less with Renteria as bait. We’ll see.
Rock on…..Brother Love’s Traveling Salvation Show.
By Lew
September 20, 2007 6:29 PM | Link to this
Shaun-No, most really excellent scientists have original thoughts and use statistics to support or refine their original thoughts. What I’m saying is hardly a condemnation of science. Science is not all statistics, though-stats are a side effect of scientific thought. It’s a chicken/egg thing. There is much creativity involved. The fact you think there isn’t says much more about your limitations than it does about scientific approach.
By Bob, Journalist
September 20, 2007 6:33 PM | Link to this
Shaun Payne, I admit to being confused by you post to Lew … were you trying to say … “the fact that Lew hasn’t read about advanced statistical research doesn’t mean anyone who has, and understands that which they have read, is unoriginal”?
I would posit and think that Lew would agree that … what he has or has not read is unlikely to have an impact on anyone’s originality.
Having just checked with Peking, I can assure you that the price of tea is unexpected to change, regardless of the veracity of the posit.
Two serious questions Shaun … what is advanced statistical research?
What were you really trying to say … since my interpretation belabors the obvious and it is not your practice to so indulge?
By Shaun
September 20, 2007 6:34 PM | Link to this
Lew, Your 6:24 goes a long way. Also you flaunting your education. Like I said, I’d rather be humble and right than cocky and “original” and wrong.
Billy Beane and Bill James and the Baseball Prospectus guys and people like them have changed baseball and the understanding of baseball. If you think your “original thoughts” alone can help you understand the game as much as reading the work of very intelligent baseball researchers, all I can do is laugh.
It has nothing to do with my intelligence or your intelligence or other people’s intelligence. I’d love to see you discover as much about the game as what I can read in a year. It’s just plain dumb and arrogant to rely only on my “original thoughts.” I honestly just have to laugh if you really believe you think otherwise.
By Lew
September 20, 2007 6:35 PM | Link to this
Shaun-You actually have to think of a reasonable question before you can find stats to back them up. I just don’t see why this is a difficult concept for you to grasp. Hell, even the people that came up with those stats had to formulate a theory on how to arrive at those stats-they had to ask those relevant questions. Do you think those stats, formulas and theories came into being spontaneously? Of course not. Someone actually had to think of the question first. Like I said-a chicken/egg thing. Your problem is you’re looking for eggs under a cow.
By Shaun
September 20, 2007 6:37 PM | Link to this
Lew, it’s so funny. You’ve now resulted to talking about my limitations and your own intelligence. I think that goes a long way to showing who you are.
By Shaun
September 20, 2007 6:41 PM | Link to this
what is advanced statistical research?
I’m thinking of what some call sabermetrics. Baseball research that goes beyond “traditional” stats.
What were you really trying to say … since my interpretation belabors the obvious and it is not your practice to so indulge?
I’m trying to say that relying on people that are smarter than you to learn things doesn’t necessarily mean you are unoriginal.
By Braveheart
September 20, 2007 6:43 PM | Link to this
Shaun, there are a few things I don’t get about the sabermetrician types.
One the one hand, they tell you it does not matter if batters strike out alot. On the other, they tell you to evaluate pitchers by their Ks per 9 innings.
On the one hand, they tell that you should look at a pitcher’s K/BB ratio. On the other hand, they tell you to look at hitter’s walk totals but ignore their strikeout totals. If a K/BB ratio is so critical for how you evaluate the pitcher, why is it not critical for how you evaluate the hitter that very same pitcher is throwing to?
On the one hand, they tell you it does not matter if the batter strikes out alot. On the other hand, whenever they can’t explain things with stats, they say it was luck. Doesn’t luck in baseball start with putting the bat on the ball? You can’t name many instances in baseball where a batted baseball did not cause luck, either good or bad. Strikeouts never cause any luck to occur.
On the one hand, they tell you power pitchers are the keys to a good postseason. Presumably, this is because they strike batters out. On the other hand, they tell you it does not matter if batters strike out alot.
By bill
September 20, 2007 6:43 PM | Link to this
Got to give McDowell a chance. He just doesn’t have the arms to work with like Leo did. The Braves don’t need Leo. He was a no name when the Braves promoted him. He had so much more to work with and he grew as the Braves pitchers improved.
By Shaun
September 20, 2007 6:46 PM | Link to this
Lew, exactly! People ask questions and answer them with stats.
Great scientist don’t rely on stats to back up their “original thoughts.” They come with a hypothesis and try to get as much information on that hypothesis as possible to either prove or disprove it, even if that information is something they themselves haven’t thought of. Great scientist do not lean only on their own understanding.
I’m sick of this. It’s obvious you think you are smarter than everyone and do not need to rely on “inferior” intelligence to learn anything about baseball. That’s just the way it is. I’ll accept that.
By NASCARfan
September 20, 2007 6:52 PM | Link to this
I wonder why everyone is always willing to question McDowell (whom I think has done pretty darn good with crap, besides Smoltz and Huddy (this year’s Huddy)) and Pendelton (who is a question mark because of Andruw… how many hitting coaches is that guy going to get fired?), but no one, and I mean no one in the media, is willing to question the one man who has always reaped the praise for 14 worthless division titles but none of the blame for all those October failures.
When is anyone, ANYONE, going to hold Bobby Cox accountable?
By ol' fart
September 20, 2007 6:54 PM | Link to this
I remember the good old days. Back before stinking blogs. When fans would argue about things at the stinking game. Not on the stinking internet. Maybe we’d even get some fisticuffs going. But now everyone just whines and worries about the stinking team and stinking players making millions of stinking dollars. They’re all in cohhoots I say. They are trying to pry your stinking few dollars out of your hands and into their pockets. They are. It’s a big conspiracy and you are playing right into it. Guys with an ERA over 10 making millions of stinking dollars. Who cares. I sure don’t. And if you do you are stupider than me I say. Can you believe it. And if you watch a game on television look at all the stinking commercials. Between innings - commercial. Pitching change - commercial. Pitching coach comes out to babysit some kid pitcher with an ERA of 8.30 but who happens to be making millions of stinking dollars - bingo, another commercial. And the game takes more than 3 stinking hours to play. I remember when Bob Gibson would pitch against maybe Don Drysdale or maybe Ernie Broglio and the game would be over in an hour and a half and it would be stinking 1 to nothing final score. But it’s the commercials that are ruining the game but look at all the stinking money involved. The tv networks pay billions to the teams and the teams pay stinking millions to the players most of whom can’t read and a lot of whom don’t speak English and most of whom can’t play a lick. But we got to watch this crap. And so don’t talk to me about Roger MacDowell. There is something really fishy about that guy. He gets paid millions of stinking dollars to do what? Coach a bunch of guys who can’t pitch. So what does coach mean anyway. He stands there with his hands in his pants just watching and not saying anything cause that’s not his job to talk to anyone? What’s that all about. If he was a real good coach he would be teaching them how to throw sliders and screwballs and maybe some of them a knuckleball but the results speak for themselves. Look at all the walks. Can’t these braves so-called pitchers throw a ball sixty feet and six stinking inches into the strike zone. But I guess maybe we’re supposed to blame the umpires because they change the strikezones more often than their stinking underwear. But like I said MacDowell just ain’t doing anyone any good maybe it’s because he was never a really good pitcher himself to begin with. Ain’t that a gem. Picking a guy who couldn’t pitch very well to teach a bunch of guys who can’t pitch very well. Maybe he is supposed to preach what he can’t practice, huh? But like I said it’s all about money and next they’re gonna say they need more money to get better players and then the games are gonna get even longer and they’ll have more commercials maybe even aadd mor innings to game, huh, why not 10 inning games they can sell more commercials that way. But don’t get me started on Leo Mazzone and all his stupid rocking in the dugout I used to think that restless leg syndrome was a big scam by the Pharmaceutical company just to make money by selling pills that no one really needs (and then they can put commercials on during the games and so the networks get some of your money and some of that trickles down to the baseball team and some of that trickles down to the players, most of whom are no stinking good) but then I look at Mazzone and I think maybe there is a resless leg syndrome or a restless something syndrome cause that guy probably needs some type of medication unless he’s drinking and don’t get me started about managers who are drinking during a game pretending it’s coffee because it’s in a coffe cup but it’s really bourbon or in Bobby cox’s case maybe gin because he looks more like a gin guy than a bourbon guy and he goes home and kicks one of his many dogs when he loses which is pretty much half the time these days. Don’t you think?
By Lew
September 20, 2007 7:01 PM | Link to this
Shaun-It was you who pointed out your limitations when you claimed you looked to smarter people than yourself to get your statistical answers. You acknowledged superior thought. Just why should I acknowledge it as well? Yes, I may very well be arrogant and an intellectual snob. I never denied it. It doesn’t however, make me any less intelligent. My point in telling you about my educational background was not to brag-only to explain to you what learning is about-having experienced it first hand. It certainly is NOT about parroting someone else’s work product and claiming it’s your raison d’etre. But that’s OK. I suppose we need accountants as well as artists-it’s just the accountants are so fundamentally boring.
By Shaun
September 20, 2007 7:01 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, a good hitter is going to make about 600-700 plate appearances a year. He can still strike out a lot and not cost his team too many outs. Ryan Howard struck out 181 times last season but still did not make an out over 42 percent of the time he came to the plate.
By Bob, Journalist
September 20, 2007 7:04 PM | Link to this
Scoots, mon ami …
Matt Diaz and the Black Hole … sounds like a good “B” movie title!
Speaking of “B” movies and Black Holes, why is it that we never see any Johnny Mack Brown movies on TV?
In most cases, I would agree with the notion that increased exposure leads to lower batting averages … as it’s usually easier to exploit weaknesses than to overcome them.
It’s always been my opine that an effective batting average algorithm could be developed from some combination of “the distance the swing stays on a counter plane, relative to the pitch, through the hitting zone” … the velocity and rate of acceleration through the zone, and the hitter’s pitch recognition and hand/eye coordination levels.
I think that Matt does very well relative to each of the above criterion … and he usually seems to have a plan to best the pitcher, especially when called upon in special situations.
He also seems to recognize when his weaknesses are being exploited and adjusts rather well … making him a moving, rather than a stationary, target for such exploitation.
I think that he would probably do better playing every day … from what I’ve read, most of those who otherwise suggest, so do because of his performance level over the last two seasons, relative to the norm.
Bobby keeps putting him in a Black Hole … and he keeps climbing out. Dollars to KKs, there’s at least one missing piece to that puzzle.
By Paladin
September 20, 2007 7:07 PM | Link to this
Don’t even think that I am “old fart”. I qualify in several ways and I agree with some of what he says,but I have never written that long of a post since joining this blog.
By Lew
September 20, 2007 7:09 PM | Link to this
Shaun-You mean you’re actually going to back down on something? All because I claim to be smart? Dude, you DO have an intellectual inferiority complex. My God, what a momentous occasion-Shaun is tired of arguing. Coach-maybe this is the blog you SHOULD archive. It’s quite possible the earth will no longer spin on it’s axis and half the world will remain in perpetual darkness. Should I draw myself a Wurlitzer for outlasting the brick wall? The First Annual Wurlitzer for Perserverence. Somehow though, I doubt it would work with Robert. Oh well.
By Paladin
September 20, 2007 7:12 PM | Link to this
Lew and Shaun PLEASE remember that no one has ever “won” an argument with either one of you. Truce?
By Mrs. Cooley
September 20, 2007 7:16 PM | Link to this
Bob, Journalist: “opine” is a verb. The noun would be “opinion.” Likewise with posit/position. “:)”
By Lew
September 20, 2007 7:16 PM | Link to this
Shaun-One final point before I go eat dinner and watch a few games. No, I don’t think I’m smarter than everyone (you for sure)-just AS smart as almost everyone. There is a big difference. Maybe I could find some stats to prove it to you. No-why bother? You wouldn’t accept the scientific method or something.
By It's Official
September 20, 2007 7:17 PM | Link to this
I keep hearing folks talk about Leo was lucky because of the arms he had.
That’s Bull! It’s not the Maddux-Glavine-Smoltz thing that showed what Leo was, it was the Shane Reynolds, John Burkett, Jared Wright and others that were “washed up” yet Leo made them productive. How would you like to have one more pitcher this year you could count on?
So where has Roger straightened someone out? Cormier? James? Carlyle? Hudson? Hudson said himself that he made adjustments in his preparation over the off season. He didn’t credit Roger.
I have heard the defense of Cox here repeatedly that all the so called “experts” say he is the best. Well if it works for Cox then it has to work for Leo. He has been considered the best in the game at his position for some time now and thats by the so called “experts.”
Want to see who else does a great job in our division? Peterson with the Mets and St. Clair with the Nationals. Those guys have done great jobs with vets and young guys alike.
I knew Leo, and Roger…… you ain’t no Leo!
By Lew
September 20, 2007 7:22 PM | Link to this
Paladin-Now, Old Fart. It’s not nice to disagree with the artist-especially when he’s a fellow Dawg. No need for a truce. I don’t dislike Shaun and I bear him no ill will at all. It was merely an intellectual exercise. Come to think of it, this is one of the shorter “battles” we’ve fought over the past couple of years. You missed the one last year where Shaun swore that Ryan Howard’s year was not exceptional. THAT one went on for several days with numerous denizens.
By Braveheart
September 20, 2007 7:23 PM | Link to this
Shaun, I understand that about Ryan Howard. But don’t you see some of the inconsistencies in their analysis?
By School Marm
September 20, 2007 7:23 PM | Link to this
‘ol fart
It’s called a paragraph. Use it!
By Train Wreck Bystander
September 20, 2007 7:26 PM | Link to this
Do you guys realize that if we sweep the Brew Crew this weekend and the Marlins sweep the Mets, we will be 1.5 games back with a week to go?
The WC looks spotty with the Pads and Rockies playing each other… who do you pull for?
GO MARLINS GO BRAVES
By Chop Chop
September 20, 2007 7:27 PM | Link to this
Shaun,
I have a Ph.D. in scrapitude. David Eckstein is a god. I defy you to defy that.
Lew,
I don’t have a problem with Shaun “parroting” stats here. After all, it’s not like the guy has the financial wherewithal or available manpower to do his own innovative statistical baseball analysis. He just picks what he likes and runs with it. Bobby picks his nose. We all have to pick something, right?
By Lew
September 20, 2007 7:29 PM | Link to this
One question I have on the Soriano suspension-Just how many of our batters had to be hit before the league thought a bit of retaliation was called for and acceptable? Hell, if Soriano had thrown the pitch lower and broke Uggla’s ribs, or his elbow he wouldn’t have even been fined, much less suspended. Next time, maybe that’s what he should do.
By Paladin
September 20, 2007 7:30 PM | Link to this
Where are the qualifications for you “experts”. I have read qualifications for other fields, but—once again—where are your qualifications to critique BC, Leo, Roger McDowell, etc. And conversely, where are your “Qs” to support them? Don’t have them? I’m not surprised. In other words, you are just a full of sh!t as the rest of us.
By Paladin
September 20, 2007 7:34 PM | Link to this
Lew I proudly answer to “old fart” when it comes from you. I posted when the fire was fierce, but by the time it was posted, it had been stoked. Ten thousand pardons.
By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)
September 20, 2007 7:37 PM | Link to this
Anybody think the Twins will put Johan Santana on the trade market ?
By Johan Santana
September 20, 2007 7:45 PM | Link to this
Coach has been on the trade market for two years. Just like Wickman, no takers unfortunately. The signing of Coach as a free agent has been plaguing this blog for 2 years. They keep placing him on waivers but like Constanza he keeps showing up for work anyway.
By Mr. Fly (Sleuth Reporter)
September 20, 2007 7:45 PM | Link to this
Science, Art and Blogulemia
Mr. Fly’s head is spinning with ideas. His many eyes are focused on the BravesBlog and many blogger’s ideas and opines. Many good one’s there, adding and fleshing out Mr. DOB’s own. Mr. Fly loved the Smoltz interview. That’s real, raw, unadulterated stuff (can say on blog?)…not the typical dribble one gets from so many other sports sources.
Mr. DOB wrote such a compelling article today and left so much good food for thought…almost as good as a cheeseburger and a fish taco. (Mr. Fly misses and sends apologies to Mr. Jimmy).
Mr. Fly’s head is spinning from so many wonderful philosophical conversations on the blog. Science and art and TBS and baseball and lamp posts and all by Lew, KC, Paladin, Ole Prof, H_charles, Ernesto and more. Mr. Fly thinks that science without imagination is called hunting and gathering. Research without creativity is called information gathering.
Information gathering, at best, is pinball wizardry…at worst, obsessive point-proving. Relentless pinballing, if unchecked, can lead to bloody foreheads due to long bouts and non-stop head butts with Mr. PinWall, the pinball wizard (who?). Best job idea for good people like Mr. PinWall is to start their own blog. So many potential new, unsuspecting customers there. Oh, the pythagorean possibilities!
Mr. Fly was inspired by Mr. Lew and has gone back in time (Mr. Fly can do) and consulted with Mr. Ultimate Scientist Albert, physicist, about the need for creative thought in research and science and life and music and other important matters like baseball. Mr. Albert has some advice for Mr. PinWall: “Imagination is more important than knowledge.”
Mr. Fly also like another Albert saying: “It is every man’s obligation to put back into the world at least the equivalent of what he takes out of it.”
Mr. Fly would like to add a quote he just made up: Regular regurgitation only works for a little while, even for certain skinny supermodels and hungry flies.
Does any other tom, dick or floyd want to add another brick to this wall? Is the wall as thick as a brick? Who can tull?? Is it a wonder wall or a pythagorean oasis?
Mr. Fly will get off the brick wall now and seek food. No regurgitation required.
By Overlord
September 20, 2007 7:51 PM | Link to this
Since the muts are winning and phillies losing. ill have to bet that in a few minutes we will have the company of some of ladies here, so put on your best cologne, lady bloggers are about to hit our blog.
By Paladin
September 20, 2007 7:52 PM | Link to this
I’m gone.
By John
September 20, 2007 7:58 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, i’ll try to explain your questions abot the stats: when a hitter strikes out, it isn’t that bad because, that hitter could have hit in a double play, or the could have gotten the lead runner out ect.ect.
Why the look for K/9 for pitchers is because thats a good measurement of how good the pitchers is at recording outs by himself ( not relying on his defense). This is a good tool to compare 2 pitches with each other. example: pitcher A, has a K/9 of 3. But his ERA is 3.00. This probably means his defense is outstanding, because he relies so much on his defense because his k/9 is very low.
Pitcher B has the exact same stat but his 9/k is 8. This probably means that pitcher B is a better pitcher then A because he doesn’t rely on his defens as much.
But you do have a point in that they can be inconsistent. You can’t look at a players stats alone and say he’s is a great player. And this is what they fail to see.
Anyway hope i helped you ;)
By Edgar
September 20, 2007 8:00 PM | Link to this
Was Dotel actived today??? If they did he should pitch for the remainder of the season.
By D-Cider
September 20, 2007 8:04 PM | Link to this
As a Braves fan exiled to Baltimore, I think Leo has done well with what he has had to work with here in Baltimore. Bedard is an All-Star, D. Cabrera can’t be coached but Guthrie has shown promise. Next year will tell the tale. Adam Lowen, is the BIG prospect here and has missed the year and will return next year. I think the O’s will make a move in the division next year with a rotation of Bedard, Lowen, Guthrie, some free agent to take Traschal’s place and a 5th starter. Leo has gone crazy the last few weeks though.
By AZBravoFan
September 20, 2007 8:05 PM | Link to this
Damn! Where the heck has this guy been all year? I like Bennett already. Maybe he’ll get lit up the second time through. But I love the way he just keeps firing strikes, uses all his pitches. Haven’t seen much of that from anyone not named Smoltz or Hudson this year.
By Savannah Guy
September 20, 2007 8:05 PM | Link to this
This has got to go down as a night of classic blog posts!
So many friends here…hello all. Paladin, I knew that long post wasn’t yours. You would have needed three bathroom trips before finishing that! ; )
Then, here I was, laughing my buttocks off at the good stuff and a Fly comes along and says it’s dinnertime. So I’m off for a bit. No regurgitating or bloviating.
Back soon.
By Braveheart
September 20, 2007 8:19 PM | Link to this
This probably means that pitcher B is a better pitcher then A because he doesn’t rely on his defens as much.
John, I gotcha. But if pitcher B is better than pitcher A because pitcher B does not rely on his defense as much as pitcher A, isn’t hitter B then worse than hitter A because pitcher B does the work for the defense by getting himself out whereas hitter A makes the defense do the work for him and makes them get him out?
It just does not seem consistent to say that pitcher B is better than pitcher A because pitcher B strikes out more than pitcher A but at the same time say that it does not matter much at all if hitter B strikes out more than hitter A.
If it is meaningless to evaluate a hitter by how much he strikes out, should it not be meaningless to evaluate a pitcher by how many he strikes out?
As C&C Music Factory said, it’s the things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmm ….. Alright, everybody dance now ….. DOB wants to shoot himself now after seeing someone quote C&C Music Factory on his blog….. twice in one paragraph
By Braveheart
September 20, 2007 8:23 PM | Link to this
With his mechanics, delivery, and pitch movement, Bennett looks like a video game pitcher to me for some reason.
By parks
September 20, 2007 8:27 PM | Link to this
Anybody Can I get a quick update on how Bennett’s stuff looks? Thanks in advance
By TennesseePaul
September 20, 2007 8:28 PM | Link to this
Dodgers suck. Man. This is the second fall from grace they’ve had this season. From 1st to 4th in 2 weeks. Crawled back into the Wild Card then from Wild Card hopes to suicide notes in another few short days. It’s the Dodger way.
Phillies are down in the 5th. Win this one Bravos… You’ll be ever so much closer.
Chipper JONES!
GO BRAVES!!
By Leo and Roger
September 20, 2007 8:29 PM | Link to this
A lot of what I’m hearing here sounds like Glavine type hate. If a guy is not with the Braves anymore, then he ain’t all that!
It has always amazed me that the Braves think nothing of spending a couple of mil to sign some fringe guy who is probably on the downhill slide yet wouldn’t spend a couple of mil to keep Leo for a couple of years! Not being proactive to keep Leo ranks right up there with any of the top Braves mis-steps in the last few years. It’s obvious now that the Braves can no longer take a chance on the Mark Redmans’ of the world and expect to have someone who can straighten him out. Obviously McDowell isn’t the guy to do that. Heck Leo saved the Braves a huge amount of payroll over the years. The Braves could pickup a guy for a song and he could be productive because they had someone who could work that out for them.
When Leo was here, everything was in place. A manager he had worked with. A GM who knew what Leo could do and what he might need. And, a system that was tried and proven with the Braves. When Leo went to Baltimore, he was starting from scratch. I still think that in the next year or two, Baltimore is going to have a very good starting staff.
I have a feeling that some of the players (yeah probably Smoltz in particular) have to be told on a regular basis just how great they are! I don’t think Leo told too many of those guys how great they were. I think he was more like, “yeah not bad, but you can do better!” The whole Braves team probably needs a kick in the butt now and then. Since Leo is gone, I don’t know if anyone on that coaching staff is capable of kicking butt. Of course, sounds like that’s the way some of the players like it.
By A. Fan
September 20, 2007 8:31 PM | Link to this
Swing batter batter batter
By Lew
September 20, 2007 8:32 PM | Link to this
This has been a great blog evening. All of y’all pretend I drew pictures for you. Even Shaun. BTW-Where did this guy Bennet come from? He’s not young and I know he missed time for TJ surgery, but why haven’t we heard of him before? I like the way he can change speeds and goes inside on hitters. His curve is pretty nasty, too-even if he did hang that one.
By B. Fan
September 20, 2007 8:33 PM | Link to this
What does your mama do when she makes pancakes?
By A. Fan
September 20, 2007 8:35 PM | Link to this
Swing batter
By David O'Brien
September 20, 2007 8:38 PM | Link to this
Edgar, yes Dotel was activated today. Don’t know if they’d thrust him into closer role after not pitching for what, six weeks? But we’ll see….
Someone asked if there was a warning before Soriano hit Uggla. No, there wasn’t, which is what makes this suspension a bit unusual. Warning didn’t come until AFTER Soriano hit Uggla….
Braveheart, you really didn’t just quote C&C Music Factory, did you? Really, you didn’t, did you? No. You did not. I refuse to believe you did.
By Gil in Mechanicsville
September 20, 2007 8:40 PM | Link to this
Lew… Bennet really didn’t start to come on until the end of the season. Looks good though.
By John
September 20, 2007 8:42 PM | Link to this
braveheart, uhm……good point ;p.LOL. i really don’t have answer for that one.
This is going to be a fun place to read the blogs if the braves enter the post season or come close to it. All the cox bashers will probably become cox lovers. ;D
By Bob, Journalist
September 20, 2007 8:48 PM | Link to this
Shaun, I’ll accept you “advanced statistical research” explanation but I suspect that most of us don’t think of Sabermetrics as really being so classified or defined.
In a society where illiterate athletes are held in higher regard and paid more than its teachers … were we all to rely upon smarter people for our learning, some of us would not learn very much … and folks like Einstein might not have ever learned anything … in fact, he was considered slow in school on more than one occasion.
It’s a good idea to try to learn from whomever you can … and so doing doesn’t speak to your creativity. Certainly, that which we think is a function of that which we’ve thought as our thought processes are influenced by our memory banks.
Use caution when agreeing with those whom you consider expert … beware of such honeytraps … it’s better to search for reasons to disagree.
Relative to baseball statistics, advanced research or no, the statistics themselves are of no consequence … it’s the interpretation thereto given and the resultant conclusions that matter.
I can’t see that Sabermetrics represents advanced thinking or research though it does bring some order and refinement to earlier work.
Regardless, know the statistical framework … look for possible flaws and exceptions, relative to both the statistic and the conclusion … and then make up your own mind.
Remember, the fact that someone agrees with you is generally of less consequence than having someone disagree … but it’s the “why” rather than the “what” that’s of importance.
By a.e. fuqua
September 20, 2007 8:54 PM | Link to this
John, what is your favorite opera?
Do you like light opera, e.g. Gilbert & Sullivan?
(I’m hoping yes).
By TennesseePaul
September 20, 2007 8:54 PM | Link to this
So, what can you say about a team in the middle of a “playoff push” when they start a minor leaguer who only became a starter 3 weeks ago, because he’s the “hot hand”?
Genious. Bennett is throwing darts tonight!
GO BRAVES!!
By John
September 20, 2007 8:59 PM | Link to this
a.e. fuqua I don’t like opera actually, why do you ask?
By Lew
September 20, 2007 9:00 PM | Link to this
Gil-He sure does look good. I wish we had the chance to see what he would do going around the league for the second time. If he can maintain this type of performance even 2/3 of the time, he may be the answer to the Back of the Rotation Blues (Buddy Guy, right?)
By N8
September 20, 2007 9:04 PM | Link to this
WHERE THE HELL WAS THIS GUY ALL YEAR!!!???
Coulda used this type of start every five days. And it’s not like it’s happening against a scrub lineup with nothing to play for.
Nice first impression, my man.
By foghorn leghorn, journalist
September 20, 2007 9:06 PM | Link to this
I say, boy, now listen carefully, son, you might learn something, you know, you must remember that when someone agrees with you, boy, you must ask who is that someone and exactly who are they agreeing with, are you listening boy, and what does agree really mean because after all, son, there are degrees of agreement … but it’s the “me” rather than the “you” that’s of importance, methinks. I do declare.
By ncscoots
September 20, 2007 9:10 PM | Link to this
Bob, what I wouldn’t give to find a TV channel with a semi-regular offering of Johnny Mack on Saturday morning…would that be a hoot? Think I’d go out and buy some movie theater popcorn boxes, fill ‘em up, and REALLY recapture some lost youth, LOL. Course, that might put a serious dent in my weekend chores, but what the heck.
And for our grammarian interloper, someone remind, or newly inform, him or her that we have our own blog grammar here, unconfined by Webster and other authorities.
Put that in your Funk ‘n Wagnalls.
By Savannah Guy
September 20, 2007 9:11 PM | Link to this
Braveheart If pitcher (B) is Bennett, he looks like possible (A) material. The kid’s got great attitude and good stuff.
Cuz, just wanted to ask, per a prior question you asked someone here earlier: Would William Wallace strategically place a decoy upriver to busy the pythagorean archer, so that the river would be clear to be crossed unencumbered by his troops? It worked with small mammals in the Amazon, to safely cross fjords without those pesky pyrana nibbles and such. Just wondering…from a historic point of view.
Now, where the heck is Paladin? Bed already?
By Mets Stink
September 20, 2007 9:12 PM | Link to this
Hey everyone, how about taking a break from the blogging for a minute and vote for the Braves/MIB blog as the best sports blog on bloggerschoiceawards.com
If I can’t get this link thing right just go to bloggerschoiceawards.com and search for Atlanta Braves blog.
Link:bloggerschoice
By Gil in Mechanicsville
September 20, 2007 9:16 PM | Link to this
I think this kid will get another start next week. Richmond had some good results this year. Look at the line up. Lot of these guys came thru Richmond.
Buddy Guy…. master of Chicago style blues, was a mentor of Jemi Hendrix.
By Overlord
September 20, 2007 9:19 PM | Link to this
Muts losing.
Phillies about to tie game.
Braves winning……..
Sun has been bright lately
By TennesseePaul
September 20, 2007 9:21 PM | Link to this
Phillies tied it up. Com’on Nats!
By N8
September 20, 2007 9:25 PM | Link to this
It’s Official
“It’s not the Maddux-Glavine-Smoltz thing that showed what Leo was, it was the Shane Reynolds, John Burkett, Jared Wright and others that were “washed up” yet Leo made them productive.”
You can “bark” up that tree all day long, my friend.
For EVERY Reynolds, Burkett, Wright “and others”, that Leo “made productive”, I will call & raise you with names like, Odalis Perez, Jason Schmidt, Jason Marquis, Dan Kolb, Chris Reitsma, Albie Lopez among “others”.
Those above mentioned guys were guys that either came up through our system that were highly touted, that couldn’t relate to Leo, that went on to have better success without him, than they did with him. And if you wanna use the “they were just older and more mature” excuse, than you have to say the same thing for Bedard, don’t you?
The others (Kolb and Reitsma) were guys that had great success BEFORE being coached by Leo and completely fell apart NEVER to find their groove again, once being coached by Leo.
We could go back and forth all day…you wanna?
By Savannah Guy
September 20, 2007 9:25 PM | Link to this
Lew: ironic you mentioned Buddy Guy. Just talked to a friend of mine who is seeing Buddy Guy tonight in Chicago. Buddy used to play in a little music club here in my town years ago. You ever heard of EROK? Old pal of mine…played a few times with Buddy, BB King and others not as well known in that genre.
By Savannah Guy
September 20, 2007 9:31 PM | Link to this
DOB…Braveheart: A few months ago I mentioned a great group/album, Modest Mouse. If you haven’t heard their “We were dead before the ship even sank” album, check it out. It’s one of those that get’s better every time you hear it, lyrically and musically. After seeing some of you guys’ music posts before I think you’d like it. No, I know you’d like it. You’d love it. Trust me on this.
Hey, it may not be C&C Music Factory, but…
By ncscoots
September 20, 2007 9:40 PM | Link to this
“Without incompetence, there would be no yardstick by which to measure brilliance.”
I give you C&C Music Factory, LOL, serving mankind in their own inimitable way :-)
By TennesseePaul
September 20, 2007 9:41 PM | Link to this
Lew: Here’s your boy McClung. I recall you talking about him in the pre-season… I saw your picture of him as well. The picture was good. I’m not so sure about McClung though.
By Overlord
September 20, 2007 9:41 PM | Link to this
muts just look deflated……..no desire………. they look beaten.
By Savannah Guy
September 20, 2007 9:42 PM | Link to this
Bob, Journalist Why is it that, every time you post, you are “just” and you are “right”? A correct gentleman even when he “corrects”. I also thought that each of several times you offered corrective advice to yours truly. Methinks you are just right. Right on brother.
By Gil in Mechanicsville
September 20, 2007 9:45 PM | Link to this
Hey Lew, isn’t that your guy Seth??
By Navigator
September 20, 2007 9:56 PM | Link to this
Get real! To bring this question up with this Braves pitching lot, is a real dis-service to both coaches. I liked Mazzone and wished he hadn’t left, but the results this year would have been the same no matter who coached the Braves. This is a sorry lot of starting pitchers. You can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear (to quote an old cliche).
By N8
September 20, 2007 9:58 PM | Link to this
7500 pitchers on our roster with the September callups and Bobby STILL insists on giving Yates innings.
YIKES.
By Bob
September 20, 2007 10:02 PM | Link to this
Hey N8. Yeah, good job by Tyler.
By Carroll Rogers
September 20, 2007 10:09 PM | Link to this
i know what you’re getting at N8. but bennett was coming off tommy john surgery. he started the year in the bullpen and kinda built up to this….the word i heard yesterday for him was fearless. he looked it tonight, eh?
By Savannah Guy
September 20, 2007 10:11 PM | Link to this
Kelly…love ya man but you gotta get over bein’ scared to get hit over there at second. If yer scared, just say “scared”…get Lemmer to coach you this offseason.
Oh, and…watch those clutch ab’s. Maybe just take the 3rd base coach’s signal. What? Bobby gave no…uh, nevermind. Just relax and think about what must be done in the particular situation you’re in (move runners over with no outs). You’ll be fine.
By ncscoots
September 20, 2007 10:12 PM | Link to this
Well, gosh, nathan, you think that might be because Bobby thinks Yates is his best shot at getting late outs in a white-knuckler? That perhaps Bobby still wants to win, because he hasn’t realized he’s just supposed to lay down like a dog?
Or did you think he should run Joey Devine out there?
By Savannah Guy
September 20, 2007 10:14 PM | Link to this
Braves WIN!!! Magic Number Is…uh…
By TennesseePaul
September 20, 2007 10:15 PM | Link to this
GO BRAVES
Another good game. 3 more games against these guys. Get warmed up and prepped to kick some Phillie @ss
By Overlord
September 20, 2007 10:16 PM | Link to this
well, muts just found a way not to lose today, with 1 out in the 9th…….. they are refusing, but the titanic has been already hit by the iceberg, no way it wont sink.
By Leo and Roger
September 20, 2007 10:21 PM | Link to this
Hey N8
Yep, lots of losers there, but there were a few pearls like the ones I mentioned. The pearls were produced when needed. Leo did not get along with everyone. He didn’t relate to every pitcher that came through. A guy like Schmidt didn’t work with Leo, yet he became one of the best in the league when he got away form Leo. Look at Glavine. It took Peterson to get him to throw inside after all those years of Leo’s off the plate or nothing philosophy. That’s going to happen when you have a strong personality like Leo. Sometimes, it just doesn’t click between personalities. On the other hand, something stinks when EVERYONE is in love with Roger! Sound familiar? Can you say Bobby Cox?
Notice anything about YOUR list? There isn’t a single one of those guys who were lights out guys BEFORE Leo. Leo’s specialty was taking castoffs who had once been successful and resurrecting their career.
Odalis Perez had mediocre success after the Braves. What, one or two decent years? So has Marquis. Both had been up and down, with more downs than ups…. just like with the Braves. Schmidt is the only REAL keeper from that bunch you mentioned. Reitsma and Kolb both continued to stink. At least in Reitsma’s case, seems he was pitching with a bum arm for a couple of years while a Brave. Albee Lopez? give me a break! lol
N8… notice I use re-claim as the term. That means there was once something worth having. I don’t really see any of those in your list. Seriously, why are you sold on McDowell? Because Smoltz likes him? I guess Smoltz is right about mechanics. After all, how many pitchers come to the big leagues to LEARN to pitch? Thats supposed to be done BEFORE they get there.
I’m not in the clubhouse. I don’t have inside information. All I have to go on is the results I see and have seen with Atlanta’s pitching staff over the years. Look at the successes that weren’t Glavine, Smoltz and Maddux. Guys who were successful enough to at least help get the Braves to the playoffs.
I’m not a mechanic, but if I buy a Honda and drive it for ten years without a problem then buy a Ford and it’s in the shop from day one, I think I might be onto something saying the Honda is a better car.
By get a grip
September 20, 2007 10:23 PM | Link to this
I don’t know what to think of this.Is it a good sign they didn’t phone it in after they were, in effect, out of the running for the post season? Or is it part of the problem, their getting hot when it matters least ? Obviously a month ago or more would have been the time a clutch team came to life.I suppose this is better than folding though and maybe something will carry over to when it matters again,say next april.
By Savannah Guy
September 20, 2007 10:24 PM | Link to this
Bennett…like him even more after the post game interview. Solid.
The following link is for blues music lovers only. An old pal o’ mine in Savannah. Thought ya might like a taste:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=81475862
By Coach ( Lets Go Braves In 2008)
September 20, 2007 10:26 PM | Link to this
The Braves might reel off seven or eight wins in a row , the sad thing is , it’s to little to late.
By Braveheart
September 20, 2007 10:29 PM | Link to this
LOL! Sorry DOB, I won’t do that again.
Unfortunately Black Box, Digital Underground, Technotronic, M.C. Hammer, Vanilla Ice, Snap, and C&C Music Factory were real big at the high school dances I went to as a freshman. Did a little reminiscing about the cheesy times on my IPOD while I was driving around this afternoon.
Can’t Touch This, Ice, Ice Baby, Gonna Make Ya Sweat, Everybody, Everybody, Pump Up The Jam, The Humpty Dance, I’ve Got The Power, Tony Toni Tone’s Feels Good, Young MC’s Bust A Move, Rob Base and DJ EZ Rock’s It Takes Two, Ladies Love Cool James’ Mama Said Knock You Out and anything by Guns and Roses always got everyone rushing to the dance floor back in 1990 and 1991. Ah, cheesy times but good times. Sad to report that I actually remember Milli Vanilli even being played at one dance. Oh, the horror. Oh, the horror.
Needless to say, the guidos and guidettes ruled those dances. My Irish arse was not gonna get much play waiting for the guidettes to dance to NWA’s F the Police or Public Enemy’s Fight the Power.
Oh, who am I kidding? I actually liked those cheesy songs too.
Thank the Lord Nirvana, Pearl Jam, and Dr. Dre’s The Chronic came along in my sophomore year along with The House of Pain for Irish hip hop pride and I decided to never go to another cheesy dance again.
Otherwise, I would have spent all of high school wearing Z. Cavaricci pants with slicked back hair and gold chains like all the guidos instead of flannels, backwards baseball caps, sagging baggy jeans, 90210 sideburns, the Everlast goatee, and the Fab Five shaved head with baggy basketball shorts down to the knees - with low cut Fab Five black socks of course. Either way, I was a dopey faddish cliched wannabe I suppose.
By Overlord
September 20, 2007 10:31 PM | Link to this
Here comes the muts collapse again……. 7-6 they lead………fish is coming.
By Braveheart
September 20, 2007 10:37 PM | Link to this
Yeah, Savannah, I kinda quit on the magic number two or so weeks ago. I should just do it for the sake of comedy and then post it everday during the offseason as a reminder of how short we fell.
BRAVES WIN! 5 IN A ROW, WHADDYAKNOW!
MAGIC NUMBER FOR THE EAST IS 16!
MAGIC NUMBER FOR WILDCARD IS 16!
The funny thing is that the last week or so they have played like those machines of the 1990s. Just taking care of business. The other teams never really in the game. Bennett looked really good tonight. So did his wife. Willie Harris was funny with Chuck James rapping into his live mic.
By Bob
September 20, 2007 10:40 PM | Link to this
Holy Cow Overlord,
Mets score to take lead in top of 9th and now Fish roar back to tie the game. David Wright error key to the blown game. The Mets are definitely the Titanic and those boys are sinking quickly in cold North Atlantic. Love it. And our good buddy Jorge Sosa was Captain of the Titanic tonight in the 9th.
By Overlord
September 20, 2007 10:41 PM | Link to this
fish tied the game…….heading into extras……..
winning run left on 3b.
By Coach ( Lets Go Braves In 2008)
September 20, 2007 10:51 PM | Link to this
Padres , Diamondbacks , Cubs , Dodgers and Mets rank one through five in team ERA. Four of these teams will make the playoffs. IT IS ALL ABOUT PITCHING…. by the way , the Padres are ranked fourth in defense , first in pitching and fourteenth in offense. They sort of reminds me of those great Braves teams of the early nineties.
By Edgar
September 20, 2007 10:59 PM | Link to this
Marlins WIN!!!!!!!!Marlins Win!!!
By Bob
September 20, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this
Ugla doubled. Mets lose, Mets lose, Mets lose. Someone better put a watch out for Mets Drool. The kid might be a threat to himself. The next best thing to the Braves winning is the Mets making a historic collapse.
By fastasballs
September 20, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this
Muts Lose! Muts Lose! HAHAHAHAHAHA
Couldn’t resist.
By Overlord
September 20, 2007 11:06 PM | Link to this
AMAZIN MUTS HAVE BEEN LEFT ON THE FIELD
PHILLIES CLOSING IN.
I WONDER WHERE ARE ALL THOSE MUTS FANS KNOW……..
GUESS THEY ARE NOT REAL FAN.
By Greg in TN
September 20, 2007 11:07 PM | Link to this
Evening denizens…
Absolutely wonderful night on the mound from Jeff Bennett. One earned run and six hits in 5 2/3 against a great offense in the Suds boys is certainly something to hang one’s hat on. It’s a shame it took until now to get on a roll, but it’s great to see Chipper leading in the race to the batting title.
This just in folks… Marlins win on a Dan Uggla extra base hit in ten innings.
By GermanBravesFan
September 20, 2007 11:08 PM | Link to this
Go Phillies! :-)
By nick saban
September 20, 2007 11:09 PM | Link to this
I’m great. Put me in the hall of fame - right NOW. I walk on water.
By Savannah Guy
September 20, 2007 11:14 PM | Link to this
Braveheart see my 9:31. I’m interested to know if my cuz heard it…lemme know.
By Bob
September 20, 2007 11:15 PM | Link to this
GermanBravesFan,
I will hold on pulling for the Phillies until the weekend plays out. If we keep winning and Mets continue their collapse, I might have to reconsider pulling for the Phils. Mets blowing it to the Phils would be second in the NL to the Phils collapse in 64 blowing a 6 1/2 game lead with 12 to go. If somehow the Mets were to blow it to the Braves it would be historic. Whatever, I don’t want to see the Muts in the playoffs.
By Robert "Bob" Robertson
September 20, 2007 11:17 PM | Link to this
Bobby Cox is a b-b-b-bad manager.
We should b-b-b-b-buy out his contract and say b-b-b-bye b-b-b-bye.
By mark
September 20, 2007 11:18 PM | Link to this
I met Leo s ex wife and she was one wild thing..ole Leo must been bad boy..she was a ho ho and a drunk
By fastasballs
September 20, 2007 11:19 PM | Link to this
Why was Sosa allowed to pitch the 10th after blowing chunks in the 9th?
The Muts have managed to lose 5 games off their lead in 7 days. Another couple of losses & a few more Braves wins will make the Philly series meaningfull for everyone.
When was the last time the Braves held anyone to one run when someone other than Smoltz or Hudson started the game. Where did this Bennet guy come from? They were saying his velocity was down & he was still getting it around 94.
By Wayne in Utah
September 20, 2007 11:20 PM | Link to this
Hello my friends!
Gotta chance to listen to most of the game on XM tonight. Let’s add Bennett to the list of potential #5’s for next spring: Hampton, Reyes, Carlyle, Lerew, Cormier and Bennett. Hope I did’t miss anybody.
So, with Smoltz, Hudson, “Mystery Starter”, James and one of the group above, what do you guys think about our rotation?
OOPs, that’s kinda hard to do without filling in the blank. We have several possibilities: Silva, Glavine, Vazquez, McGowan, Olsen, Lowry, etc.
I love the excitement of the games lately, but miss the fact that we aren’t really able to audition too many youngsters when the games count.
I would love to see Lillibridge and Blanco get a few AB’s along with BJones, Pena and Thorman. Also would be good to see a bit of Devine and Dotel in late inning situations.
By Wayne in Utah
September 20, 2007 11:24 PM | Link to this
fastasballs remember, my friend, that when Buddy came up, he too looked good the first time around the league.
By Double Deuce
September 20, 2007 11:33 PM | Link to this
++’ol fart++ Don’t care if that rant was one paragraph or one sentence, it was funny!!!!! Good stuff buddy!
By GermanBravesFan
September 20, 2007 11:34 PM | Link to this
Bob - you got a point. Let’s see how the weekend goes!
GO BRAVES!!!
By Melvin Freeman
September 20, 2007 11:35 PM | Link to this
Here’s a tip for everyone. Something I discovered.
I put a piece of sod from my backyard next to my computer so that when I follow a Braves’ game on ESPN, I can close my eyes and it smells like the outfield and I can pretend that I’m at the ballpark.
Try it! It’s fun!!!
By Brian Fantana
September 20, 2007 11:36 PM | Link to this
Whoa mark. Why don’t you stop talking for awhile. Sit the next couple of plays out.
By Lew
September 20, 2007 11:37 PM | Link to this
Gil-yes, that was Seth. A big boy, isn’t he? I think they clocked at least one of his pitches tonight at 97. Now if he could just learn Maddux- like control and confidence in his curve-and never face Big Papi ever again, well, who knows?
Savannah Guy-Buddy Guy (any relation?) used to play Tampa/St.Pete all the time. There was a huge blues scene there. Tinsley Ellis, Derek Trucks, James and Lucky Peterson, Chris Anderson and the Toler Brothers (Greg Allman’s Band) all lived down there and would jam at a couple of the clubs. BB King would show up a couple times a year. Also a local guitarist named Sean Chambers. He plays Texas style blues (Johnny Winter, Stevie Ray Vaughan). Lots of great music there in Central Florida
Sure is fun lately. Braves win 6 of 7 and the Mets lose 6 of 7. That’s how fast things can change. Picked up 5 games in a week. Now, of course it’s likely too late, but it still proves the point. Nice not having to pay Troll Tribute, either. Wonder just where they went?
By Bob
September 20, 2007 11:38 PM | Link to this
fastaballs,
Apparently the Met announcers were caught off guard too. They had no explanation why Wagner was not in the game and they did not even see him in the pen. Maybe they found out why he wasn’t in the game later, but during the failure by Sosa they had no clue.
By Lew
September 20, 2007 11:43 PM | Link to this
Come to think of it, I don’t care where the Mets Trolls went. Just so they stay there.
By GermanBravesFan
September 20, 2007 11:45 PM | Link to this
Bob - you got a point. Let’s see how the weekend goes!
GO BRAVES!!!
By Lew
September 20, 2007 11:47 PM | Link to this
Bob-I saw the Marlins’ feed. They said that before the game, Randolph told them Wagner would not be available for tonight’s game. Kind of makes you wonder, it being balls to the wall time, though.
By fastasballs
September 20, 2007 11:52 PM | Link to this
Wayne That’s true about Buddy Carlyle, but he doesn’t have the velocity or movement that Bennett displayed tonight. I’m not saying the Bennett will ever be in the rotation, but tonight he looked fine.
As far as next year goes I’m guessing Glavine is signed or a big time trade is made involving several players to acquire a starter. If Hampton is remotely effective he’s getting the 5th spot because he’s getting paid a ton & without proving he’s fully recovered for any length of time he’s not tradable. I think Oscar will be gone because there will be plenty to choose from for the long relief man.
The bullpen looks great for next season. I would love to see Devine pitch, but Cox either doesn’t like the guy or doesn’t trust him, yet this is the same manager that sends Thorman, Woodward & Orr up to pinch hit when there is obviously better choices sitting on the bench.
The funny thing is the Braves appear to be playing their best ball since April & would be ripe for a deep run into the playoffs, but earlier failures will probably prevent that from happening. Oh well it’s something to build on for next year regardless, although I do wonder if it’s better to finish 5-6 out rather than finsh a game or two out & have to relive how many blown games the team had.
By Bob
September 20, 2007 11:53 PM | Link to this
fastaballs,
Now being reported that Wagner had back spasms. Speaking of Spasms, did you see Lastings Milledge do his Milton Bradley immitation. Went completely nuts about a strike call after subsequently flying out. Came out of the dugout after being thrown out and Ricky Henderson had to drag him into the dugout. This team is coming apart at the seams. Hell, Aaron Heilman got hit by an object and the only fans at the game were Muts fans. I guess that is to be expected in Miami.
By Double Deuce
September 20, 2007 11:53 PM | Link to this
Question for anybody out there. How is the decision made on who to bring in from the bullpen? Does Bobby make that call or does Roger, and if it is Bobby, was that the way it was done when Mazzone was here?
By Bob
September 20, 2007 11:56 PM | Link to this
Lew, yeah that is real strange. Why wouldn’t the Mets announcers have known the same thing. Whatever, it is fun to watch these guys comit Hari Kari. Couldn’t happen to a more deserving fan base.
By Efrim
September 20, 2007 11:58 PM | Link to this
Damn shame that this team is now starting to get it together. Too late though. 5 back in the loss for the division and 6 back in the Wild Card. Pretty sad. Oh well. 9 games left. It would be nice if we can make a solid run of 7-2 and finish with 87 wins. That would be nice.
By gotigers72
September 20, 2007 11:58 PM | Link to this
I’m not an advocate of bringing Leo back, but I do believe McDowell needs to go and SOMEBODY else hired to be the pitching coach. My reasoning; McDowell has had two years, and the younger pitchers [Chuck, Davies, Cormier, etc., and yes I know Davies is gone]have not progressed. In fact they have regressed to an extent. Hell, I could be the pitching coach for Smoltz and hudson, just would pretty much leave them alone. But the younger guys need to be taught the FUNDAMENTALS OF PITCHING, i.e., keeping the ball down, stay ahead in the count, pitch to the corners, etc. In two years, I have not seen improvement in the area of fundamentals in the young pitchers. That is why I think McDowell should go. He should have tips to give those kids that would lead to improvement in those areas. My God, look at how many homers all of the pitchers EXCEPT Smoltz and Hudson have given up. That’s due to too many pitches up in the zone, over the middle of the plate, and from behind in the count.
Why did BC take the bunt off when KJ was batting in the 7th? Men on first and second and nobody out, ahead 3-1. A situation just screaming for a sacrifice. KJ acted like he was going to bunt a couple of times, but let pitches go by that were balls. Then BC took the bunt off, KJ flies out harmlessly to left, and Edgar hits into a double play. If Bobby leaves the bunt on and KJ is successful, there are runners on 2nd and 3rd with one out. The infield probably plays in [already behind 3-1], and Edgar’s rocket goes through for a hit and 2 runs score. Instead, the ball goes right to the shortstop for an easy double play. That has happened far too often this year when the bunt was taken off. If he had two strikes, I could see removing the sacrifice, but he had ZERO strikes. TWO chances to move the runners over. Bad tactics Bobby.
By fastasballs
September 21, 2007 12:01 AM | Link to this
As far as the Muts go if they lose tomorrow with Pedro on the mound I would lay some good odds they lose the division. Glavine pitched tonight & El Duque I assume is done for the regular season. That leaves Maine & the AAA scrub of the week to pitch two HUGE pressure packed games this weekend.
As Muts Fool use to say, they have been EXPOOSED for the frauds that they are.
By DirtyDawg
September 21, 2007 12:03 AM | Link to this
Don’t know what set off RobbieBobRobbie above on Bobby Cox, but I will take him to task on one thing - get Kelly Johnson off the field and let the kid - Escobar - play every day from here on out. We got lucky tonight - his, Johnson’s, failure to get the ball to Renteria quicker on that DP could have been a disaster…along with his failure to catch the throw on the stolen base in the eighth - or whenever. Johnson’s just too slow to react (reminds me of Adam LaRoche only without the good glove)…he’s got zero range to his right or left, but because he has to overplay to his right (he’s even worse on his backhand) he leaves a larger hole to his left. I don’t know what position we can use him in, maybe it’ll have to be trade bait for some better pitching. Sorry, I know everybody loves the guy but Escobar is a player.
By Braveheart
September 21, 2007 12:05 AM | Link to this
METS LOSE!!!! MAGIC NUMBER IS 15!!
The Braves have gained 5 games in 10 days. Another 5 games over the last 10 days and……. Another 7-2 by the Braves and 3-7 by the Mets and a 4-5 out of the Phils and …… we got a three way tie ….. gotta sweep the Phils ….. but first take at least 2 of the next 3 from the Brew Crew ….. we’re gonna have to call in favors from our old friends Satan Kasten, Fredi Gonzalez, and Ned Yost. Hopefully Satan Kasten will prevent Manny Acta from rolling over for Willie and Omar.
Hey lew do you think Anders has his Mets focusing on a wild card spot instead of a division title?
Savannah, loved their last album. Float On to me is a classic. Have not checked out the new one. Will have to check it out.
By Jim Valvano
September 21, 2007 12:08 AM | Link to this
Someone just woke me up. Don’t Give Up! Don’t Ever Give Up! Win that batting title Chipper!
By Uh, Anonymous Braves Player
September 21, 2007 12:09 AM | Link to this
The thing I will always miss about Leo is those little pimento cheese sandwiches he would make and bring to the park everyday. Sometimes we would sneak into Leo’s locker and mess with those sandwiches a little. Let’s just say Bobby has picked a pimento or two in his time and left ‘em on the dugout railing. Leo was never fazed by any of this and I’m pretty sure he never caught on. He loved those little pimento cheese sandwiches.
By Bob
September 21, 2007 12:14 AM | Link to this
Braveheart,
If the Muts do lose the Division, I am almost certain that they will be at home watching their cross town “rivals” in October. It looks like Arizona and San Diego are both headed to the playoffs, and if not them, then maybe the Rockies. Mets either win the Division or they can help their kids get ready for Halloween.
By fastasballs
September 21, 2007 12:14 AM | Link to this
BOB,
Yeah I have to laugh at Lastings. I have a feeling he may become a star for the federal prison league in a few years.
Something strange about Wagner’s so called back spasms. Like you said their own announcers didn’t know what was going on. I could see if they occured in middle of the game they may not be aware until after.
gotigers72 I’ve given up trying to figure out why Cox does anything anymore. Nobody on the damn team can get a bunt down on a regular basis but Huddy & Smoltz. You would think by now they might spend a little time bunting during BP since they are obviously lacking the ability to get one down in games.
By Braveheart
September 21, 2007 12:21 AM | Link to this
So Wagner has back spasms. Not surprising. Wagner has always been a spineless spaz come autumn.
By Overlord
September 21, 2007 12:22 AM | Link to this
Its sad to see all this collapse by the muts knowing we could have done at least a little better and be in 1st right now.
By STEVEN WINE Associated Press Sports Updated: 2:47 p.m. MT Sept 20, 2007
MIAMI (AP) -One win was enough for the New York Mets to regain some of their swagger.
“We’re the best team in the league,” slugger Carlos Delgado said Thursday, before the start of a four-game series at Florida. “We have been doing it the whole year.”
By N8
September 21, 2007 12:23 AM | Link to this
Leo and Roger
“Seriously, why are you sold on McDowell?”
I’m not neccesarily “sold” on Roger. I just think that there are many pitching coaches, and many who are NOT qualified to be a pitching coach (say, somebody like……my mom), who could’ve been Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz’ pitching coach and NOT messed it up.
Nothing more, nothng less. My points are more directed at Leo than praise for Roger.
Name the last pitcher NOT named Avery, Smoltz, Glavine (and even Millwood) who came up through the system and “ammounted” to anything, while under the tutorials of Leo.
If all Leo was good for was reclamation projects, ALL of our pitching prospects should’ve been traded for has-beens, right?
Nothing personal towards you, just not sure why so much praise for Leo, when DOB clearly (as I have MANY TIMES) pointed out that we were in “decline” during his last two years here, and Baltimore has certainly not taken the next step with his expertise, have they?
Our past lineups were certainly stacked at times. Sometimes our bullpen was dominant, sometimes not. Our defense has always been good. Hell, even Bobby is probably responsible for some victories along the way.
But anybody that denies that the Braves, along with Bobby and Leo’s success isn’t DIRECTLY related to us having 3 HOF starters in the rotation for over a decade, is quite frankly….a little naive.
By Overlord
September 21, 2007 12:28 AM | Link to this
By PAUL NEWBERRY Associated Press Sports Updated: 4:07 p.m. MT Sept 17, 2007
“If they want me here, I’ll be here,” Jones said. “It just depends on what the Braves want to do.”
By The Grinch
September 21, 2007 12:29 AM | Link to this
Morning, all!
Fastasballs, agreed in general but Orr got down a pretty damn good bunt tonight.
Haven’t caught up on the posts tonight yet (just got in), so here’s a pre-emptive middle finger for anyone who said anything I don’t agree with.
Tonight’s posts sponsored by Sweetwater 420 pale ale (and a touch of Wild Turkey).
By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)
September 21, 2007 12:32 AM | Link to this
No Sir , I just watched the highlights of the Braves game. I do not know what hole Jeff Bennett crawled out of , I’m just glad he is here. This guy is for real. Fastball , slider , sinker , curveball and everything is down in the zone. He has a hard sinker and a big hook for a curveball , this dude can flat out pitch. He may be 27 and coming off tommy john surgery , but better late than never , he is a keeper. The Braves found themselves the bottom of the rotation starter they have been looking for all season. Welcome to the show Jeff Bennett , your staying.
By Overlord
September 21, 2007 12:32 AM | Link to this
I wonder if delgado still thinks the muts are the best team in the league…..all division is taking care of them. If braves would have won 1 more game last series ……we would be 2.5gb of them right now………
Shame shame………. it think braves hung up the glove before the fight was over.
By Overlord
September 21, 2007 12:33 AM | Link to this
RHP Orlando Hernandez (sore right foot) received a cortisone shot Aug. 31. He missed his scheduled Sept. 4 start. He returned to start Sept. 11 and said he was sore afterward. He was supposed to start the Sept. 17 game but was scratched. He’s wearing a protective boot, and he’s unlikely to pitch before Sept. 26.
By GeorgetownKid
September 21, 2007 12:34 AM | Link to this
Not bad Mr. Bennett.
Could we actually be making things interesting?
By The Grinch
September 21, 2007 12:37 AM | Link to this
Ha! Just read ESPN’s coverage on the Mets game. “Look for the Union Label” blew the first lead and Jorge Sosa blew the second, with Milledge getting ejected (and having to be restrained) for arguing balls and strikes after flying out. Sounds like losersville as usual, to me. Whre are the Mets’ fans, anyhow?
By Overlord
September 21, 2007 12:42 AM | Link to this
Braveheart do you really thik there is a chance of that to happen? i dont, Phillies are poised. They will keep winning… i think they will go at least 7-3 last 10. And muts i think theyll go 5-5.
I just hope your predictions are better than mine.
Braves i think will only lose 1 game the rest of the way when they dont play the phillies…….hard to say what will happen against phills. Right now i think we are performing better and our pitching is doing better than theirs………. What a difference just one more win against the muts would have done…….2 games in the standings…….
By Coach (Lets Go Braves In 2008)
September 21, 2007 12:45 AM | Link to this
One week ago the Braves had Smoltz , Hudson and a prayer. Now , the Braves are seven deep in starters. Most of the time , baseball can be totally predictable , then the human element comes into play and the unbelievable happens.
By fastasballs
September 21, 2007 12:51 AM | Link to this
Grinch,
The Milledge ejection is a classic, you gotta watch it. I just went back on MLB.com & watched it again. If Soriano gets 4 games for hitting Uggla then Lastings should be gone for a month for his ignorant behavior. To follow that up a Muts fan on crutches throws a baseball & hits Heilman while he is warming up for the 8th. Sosa finishes off a perfect night of the soap opera called the Muts collapse of 2008.
By flbravesgirl
September 21, 2007 12:58 AM | Link to this
Nice first start, Mr. Bennett! This is becoming a lot more fun than I anticipated the end of the season being.
fastasballs, your take on Milledge is dead on. That kid is his own worst enemy.
Kinda feisty this evening, green one? You must be feeling better.
By uga-brave
September 21, 2007 1:00 AM | Link to this
DOB,
have asked for comments on roger for a while thank you.
said it in august we would finally play well when it did not matter.
first of all HOSS is a stud. has been and always will be. andruw is a player we are definitely gonna miss. throw out this year he deserves respect period.
if that moron KYLE DAVIES had a lick of balls, this season would of been different. from what his stats are in K.C. same old pitcher, ton of walks and excuses.
got a old bone to pick here, FRANCOUER aint that good. his sluuging % is .430 thats about the second worst on the team. his 53 extra base hits are gonna be about the same as last year. he is the best tradeable player on this team.
i know he is THE GOLDEN BOY, but a player that strikes out 140 a year better hit for power. if you double DIAZ’S PLATE APPEARANCES he would be more productive.
as for that K.J. and FRANCOUER are pretty much the same player. both K a lot and hit for medium power.
as far as public perception who gets you a stud pitcher?
TOUGH move to make but i dont see FRANCOUER with that lunge appraoch becoming a first name kind of star. way to much movement in that swing.
right fielders are replacable. STARTERS ares not
By Eugene
September 21, 2007 1:07 AM | Link to this
The article by Mr. O’Brien was good and very informative. Too bad Leo is not managing in the National League. I would love to see a few head up matches between he and Mr. Cox before they retire. What are the chances of the Braves playing a couple of series with the Orioles next year?
I for one am still disappointed that Dooley and Russell never settled their rivalry “Between The Hedges.”
By Overlord
September 21, 2007 1:15 AM | Link to this
Are the muts good enough to compete against the AL? i mean……..the marlins just got 21 hits in a game glavine started.
BTW, im really starting to worry about my friends from NY, i have not read a single post from them since last friday.
By uga-brave
September 21, 2007 1:15 AM | Link to this
BRAVEHEART,
first of all i loved the fact that soriano tried to take off UGLAS head. besides the fact we got hit three times in that game, ugla has been a brave killer for two years, love the passion. if a couple of our other pitchers would of had that mound presence things might of been different.
UGLA looked out there and thought about it for a brief momment, methinks SORRIANO would have gone native on him.
BRAVEHEART know you are
By The Grinch
September 21, 2007 1:16 AM | Link to this
I am indeed, Liepschen. :-)
Fast, I’m on someone else’s antiquated computer and can’t get the replay; I’ll take your word for it. Besides, I’ve watched these same Nancy Boys perform the implosion scene so often I know it by heart. Sweet.
By Overlord
September 21, 2007 1:23 AM | Link to this
Will the muts go down to their knees if tomorrow pedro has to leave the game because of discomfort on his arm?
By Lester Reyes
September 21, 2007 1:26 AM | Link to this
I know practically nothing about pitching (save for what I’ve witnessed as a Braves fan over the last 25 seasons), even less about coaching it, much like the rest of you. Roger’s (relative) silence may be predicated on trying to live down the reputation he earned as a player as being court jester and prankster supreme. Nothing wrong with that. I do remember that he wasn’t their first choice the year he was hired, but Jerry Narron went to manage the Reds; he’s presumably available now after being fired earlier this year. For my money, I think Orel Hershiser (assuming he even wants to be a pitching coach, I’ve read he’d really like to manage) would make an outstanding coach, should the Braves decide to part ways with McDowell. I’ve been consistently impressed with his analysis on Baseball Tonight, and ESPN’s game broadcasts (although looking smart next to Sutcliffe isn’t too difficult). He loves the game, is deeply passionate about it being played well (i.e., players being fundamentally sound), and I think sometimes having a more proactive, hands-on approach like that could benefit a team that seems to have fallen into complacency, or just isn’t sure how they win with what they have. With a guy like Bulldog, no player would be free from criticism for such things as failure to get the bunt down, cover 1B, etc. Great blog, Mr. O’Brien, thanks for sharing Smoltz’s quotes in their entirety.
By uga-brave
September 21, 2007 1:30 AM | Link to this
BRAVEHEART,
to finish that thought that got cut off, LETS ALL DRINK ONE TO LARRY MUNSON TOMMOROW.
tide fan or GEORGIA fan, the guy is going to be hurting tommorow. mortality is catching up to a guy that all us DAWGS thought was immortal.
the GREAT VOICE is not going to be there on saturday, as for me win or lose its just not gonna be the same.
the SEC is full of traditions, just wish the GREAT VOICE could of gone forever.
WHATCHA GOT LAUREN?
By Chop Chop
September 21, 2007 1:33 AM | Link to this
uga-brave,
It’s “Francoeur”, dude. If you’re taunting him by misspelling his name, I digress.
Grinch,
The Braves are playing well because they have no pressure. They played themselves into a deficit that they can’t overcome. Now, all of a sudden, Chuck James is lights-out, Jo Jo looks like a big leaguer, some guy I’ve never heard of strikes out eight in his first career start, and all is right with the world.
What a bunch of sandbaggin’ mofos.
By The Grinch
September 21, 2007 1:37 AM | Link to this
Overlord, the Muts went down on their knees in 1966 and only got up once 20 years later to stretch. They’ll do what they always do. They’re only in the mix because everyone else is worse; if they somehow make it to and through the playoffs (neither is by any means certain), I hope the AL uses a little KY on the way in.
By uga-brave
September 21, 2007 1:38 AM | Link to this
LESTER,
there is a reason that MORAL OREL HERCHIESER does not have a job, see that turn at texas with BUCK.
THE GUY IS SO FULL OF HIMSELF HE CANT STAND IT.
never, never, never, do you want that blow heart here.
By uga-brave
September 21, 2007 1:49 AM | Link to this
CHOP CHOP,
dont spell so well at times, thanks for pointing out my transgrssions (not sure that is spelled right. )
but what if the reds offered you HARRANG FOR FRANCOEUR, would you do it?
By The Grinch
September 21, 2007 1:50 AM | Link to this
Here’s to Munson, the greatest radio broadcaster this Grinch has ever known, and an irreplacable part of his (my) life. Prost.
Chop, you’ll get no argument from me; this would’ve been nice to have happen when it mattered. But there’s no need to rend our garments and gnash our teeth; next year won’t be long upon us. And having Hampton back will be just like signing a free agent ace. :-)
Now, all we need to do is beat ‘bama. WOOF WOOF WOOF
By uga-brave
September 21, 2007 1:54 AM | Link to this
heck would much rather be playing the mets on TUE. than the fightins.
gotta think that it would be great if the METS fell all the way out of the playoffs. it could happen.
By uga-brave
September 21, 2007 2:15 AM | Link to this
grich,
just the cherry on the top of a WEIRD SEASON. won one game with less than 5 runs since the all-star break, until HUDDYS complete game on SUN.
which of course was our first complete game of the year. now all of a sudden everything comes together.
HEY MAN, ITS GOTTA BE BOBBYS FAULT.
By Lester Reyes
September 21, 2007 2:26 AM | Link to this
uga-brave, I spoke for myself, thank-you very kindly. Now get back to trying to put that bulldawg—or is it bull$#!t?—education to use. There’s offices all over ATL that need vacuuming.
By Dan
September 21, 2007 2:29 AM | Link to this
Oh, Please. Anybody could have been the pitching coach for the Braves in the 90’s. Look at the talent the starters had. I think that Leo should be based on the job he did with the non hall-of-famers. The Braves never had a great bullpen for the whole decade plus. And their 4 and 5 starters were average at best. Leo is SOOOOOO overrated.
By The Grinch
September 21, 2007 2:43 AM | Link to this
Hey, man, while it would be painfully easy for me to sit here and fire off a rant about who’s fault this season’s was, like:
It’s Bobby’s fault because…
It’s JS’ fault because…
It’s Hampton’s fault because…
It’s our 3-4-5 starter’s fault because…
It’s Andruw’s fault because…
It’s Time Warner/Liberty Media’s fault because…
It’s the bench’s fault because…well, actually, it IS all Woodward’s fault. :-)
Really, though; I remember the 80’s. As this season comes to a gentle close we should all remember how awful those teams were and remember how much we still cared for them anyway. They were and are our heros. This is OUR team, win or lose, and I’ll be proud of them no matter how they do as long as they try. We should also be beyond happy we have each other to relate to; folks from all walks of life who stand united with one thing in common: a love of this fantastic team.
Go %#@& yourselves, and good night. :-)
By uga-brave
September 21, 2007 2:48 AM | Link to this
LESTER,
grow some skin, you called him a bulldog. first of all know your facts. this guy is a lousy judge of talent. if he was half good he would be employed. grow up man what typical response to your ignorance.
By uga-brave
September 21, 2007 3:03 AM | Link to this
paladin,
until that vampire seebrok shows up the graveyard shift is still here.
have loved all your witty posts, still miss my PRAGMATIC friend BRAVE-DAVE.
AS for LESTER, did your momma really give you that name.
GOOD luck lester nothing personal.
By Serbok
September 21, 2007 3:41 AM | Link to this
uga-brave * *BOO! LOL
By Serbok
September 21, 2007 4:07 AM | Link to this
uga-brave Thanx My Friend for leaving the “Podium” open for me:o) *Grinch, Agree on you 2:43 post :o) I am a Tampa Bay Buccaneers fan, The local paper is TBO.com., what a Rag? I went there to talk football and was very Pizzed off at the way they do, um, Blogs? I guess? I wrote them a Scathing letter Emphasizing How AJC.com along with our Prestigious DOB handles the way “WE” sports fans communicate with one another. I’m Pizzed at myself as I wanted to save the letter to my clipboard and post it here! :o( WE are Very fortunate to have the forum that DOB and the AJC presents us here (DOB! Makes it happen!) The forum on TBO.com is very Lame! Its like reading a book backwards! The most recent post is First? In another words one reads page 365 with refernces to what was posted by someone on page 222 first? How the H3ll does that make sense? Also, there is a 750 character limit? I feel that the reason Buc’s fans cannot interact with the media and one another is :Maybe?” Due to a lazy “Beat reporter?” Then again? I dunno~ maybe just doeant have the wisdom that Music brings to the human mind and All extrapolations that comes with the “Zen” music allows the soul to feel? Therefore Putting DOB ahead of the game? I have one other instance of this theory, I used to Party BIG time with a Guy named Tim Ruskell, back in the day. He Too, was a huge music afficianado! Went and saw Skynyrd with him then three shows later the plane crashed:o( Music to me, is the key of happiness:o) Innyway, I digress, the TBO website is miserable! We are VERY fortunate to have a “Blog such as this” to be able to communicate with fellow Braves fans! Pizzes me off I didnt Save the post, as that was my intention! But ya know~ the Cliques?~lol~clicks? I’d love to face Matt Dillon in a mouse off? LOL Now tell me? Did Ya Ever, Ever think that you would read those 10 words strung together in a sentence in your lifetime? LMAO! Hope Chip wins the Batting thingy majiggy? :o) cheers~
By Serbok
September 21, 2007 4:23 AM | Link to this
UGA ‘Fess Up ‘Bro? Do you Know JF personally? (Did he have laisons with a close personal female acqauaintance?” I mean as a young BB player the guy’s on the $? Maybe the best Arm in BB? I just don’t get it man? Why the disrespect for a “potential” All-Star Outfielder?
By Serbok
September 21, 2007 4:57 AM | Link to this
BRAVEHEART Thanx man, Your 10:29 post just made my browser crash! You OWE me one man! LOL
By Serbok
September 21, 2007 5:40 AM | Link to this
Bobby Cox= Wickman=Marlins Bobby Cox =langerhands Bobby Cox=Willie Harris=Matt Diaz Bobby Cox =Yunel Escobar=woodward Bobby Cox= Mark Redmond? Bobby Cox= Scott Thorman= Salty Bobby Cox= Pete Orr= Martin Prado Bobby Cox= AJ batting 4th Bobby Cox= WOODWARD! Bobby Cox= Julio over Salty John Shuerholtz= losing davies for Dotel Bobby Cox= letting Chipper play SS while Harris plays third (Priceless!)
Bobby Cox Costing this team a playoff spot? With a touch of JS? again! PRICELESS!
By Gil in Mechanicsville
September 21, 2007 6:49 AM | Link to this
Good morning all, *SG thanks for the link. I am a very big blues fan. Funny, I also love bluegrass…. Go figure. Anyway, maybe some accolades should be directed towards Mike Brundage and his staff for getting some of these kids ready for the show.
A lot of good young talent is coming out of the Braves organization so kudos to the scouting department too. It’s not just Bobby Cox and his staff that make a difference.
As for Joey Devine, He has good stuff right now but I am not sure I would trust him too much either.
By wjones
September 21, 2007 7:19 AM | Link to this
Some questions for those who saw the Marlins game with all of the HBP’s, which has resulted in Soriano’s suspension, but apparently no one else’s (I only caught the last two innings that night):
Didn’t Kim have 3 HBP’s? And afterward another pitcher THROW BEHIND ANDRUW’S HEAD? And this was BEFORE the Braves did anything? Where are the suspensions there?
How dare Freddie’s team do that to us?! He wouldn’t have had a major league job if it weren’t for Bobby! Then again maybe he’s P.O.’d for having such a crummy team to manage with 500 fans per night! :)
I don’t blame Uggla for being mad for getting hit in the head, but spare me all the self-righteous indignation—this WAS right after his mate threw BEHIND ANDRUW’S HEAD! Did he just expect us to take it? All of the histrionics after his home run the next night? He had better wear his helmet REAL tight the next time he sees us, huh? :)
By UGA/Vol
September 21, 2007 7:28 AM | Link to this
Folks, inside the baseball community it was common knowledge that Leo was a JOKE. His success was that he didn’t mess up the big three for all those years. The real loser for those years were the ATL fans with Bobby (bourbon) Cox as the manager.
By Thrillhouse44
September 21, 2007 8:29 AM | Link to this
Where have you been, Mr. Bennett?
I’m really glad this team hasn’t tucked its tail and quit playing. It’s nice to see them finish strong.
Soriano is the man. I’m glad the Braves have an intimidator on the the team. He’s the last person I’d want throwing at me.
By jerry
September 21, 2007 8:36 AM | Link to this
Braves fans: YANKEES! Relax, take it easy, calm down. I was only trying to scare you.
By Talent Scout
September 21, 2007 8:36 AM | Link to this
Continuing my assessments, let’s move to Mark Texiera.
I was a big proponent of trading for Tex from the get go. Thorman was a drain and Franco wasn’t going to work for the long term. Salty was not going to thrive at first, so IMO, JS made the right deal. Obviously, TEX has done well. No one can argue. He attacks the ball very aggressively and usually will get his big hits early in the count. I noticed that the deeper the pitch count, the worse he does. Probably nothing to make of that, but that’s what I see. Still, he has a good eye and does draw a decent amount of walks, but strikeouts are a little higher than one would like. That’s a trade off for being a slugger, I guess.
He has won gold gloves but I think its all in the glove, because the feet are a little slow. I recall he made a big error in one of his first games as a Brave on a seemingly routine grounder near the line. I felt like his feet were just a little slow getting there, causing the error. If the guy needed to work on anything, it would be his foot speed.
All in all, Tex is a keeper and the Braves should move quickly to try and sign him next year before free agency hits. Everyone knows his agent would reject offers before that time, but in the end, its Tex’s decision. If the Braves post a good enough offer, then there’s a chance. He’s definitely one of the best in the game, so he’s worth it. The penny pinchers on the blog will rail against this, but it appears to be a healthy investment in the ABs future.
By Bravesfan
September 21, 2007 8:38 AM | Link to this
Mazzone was good at turning washed up pitchers around. The truth of the matter is when Leo was here the Braves had Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, and other good # 3,4, and 5 starters. And when you loose talent like that you’re pitching staff is going to struggle. Let’s face it the budget hasn’t been there to get that kind of talent. And as good as the farm system has been. The Braves gave away any good pitchers they had down there in trades (ie. Adam Wainwright).
By Thrillhouse44
September 21, 2007 8:38 AM | Link to this
wjones, regarding #2: do you think Freddie is mad that he has a crummy team or was he retaliating for the Braves stealing DOB from the Marlins?
By wjones
September 21, 2007 8:46 AM | Link to this
Thrillhouse44, good point! :)
Seriously, it seems a bit odd to have beanball wars between teams, when one manager was a protege of another, doesn’t it? Now if it was a protege of John McGraw, Billy Martin, Leo Durocher, then maybe.
By Watty Piper
September 21, 2007 8:55 AM | Link to this
The little Braves Injun: I-think-I-can, I-think-I-can. Poot! Poot!
By Watty Piper
September 21, 2007 9:00 AM | Link to this
Talent Scout: I-thought-I-could, I-thought-I-could. (add your own gas-passing sounds)
By Thrillhouse44
September 21, 2007 9:10 AM | Link to this
wjones, perhaps Freddi wants a shot at Bobby’s ejection record and thought he’d get tossed for his part in the beanball war.
By Shaun
September 21, 2007 9:17 AM | Link to this
Braveheart, to go back to strikeouts, they are fine for hitters because in 600-700 plate appearances, you can still be very productive if you strike out 180 times. That leaves you 400-plus plate appearances to do good things.
For a pitcher, it goes back to the idea that the typical batting average on balls in the field of play is around .300. So if a pitcher doesn’t avoid contact, he has little margin for error. A .300 OBP isn’t all that bad for a pitcher to give up, but he can’t walk anyone and can’t give up homers.
It’s not that a pitcher can’t succeed without strikeouts. It’s that a pitcher is playing with fire when he doesn’t rely on strikeouts to a certain degree.
Lew, as far as Ryan Howard last season, I never argued that his season wasn’t exceptional or anything of the sort. My argument was that it wasn’t a historically valuable season. Guess some will continue to twist that point to make me look as foolish as they want me to look.
Bob, Journalist, I’ve never said I didn’t view sabermetric or statistical research with skepticism. In fact, my innate skepticism has made me appreciate sabermetric-type ideas more. Of course I don’t just blindly accept it just because I think some of the folks who do sabermetric type research are smarter.
By Steeledawg
September 21, 2007 9:19 AM | Link to this
I am glad to see the ol’boys have some fight left in ‘em! As much as I would love to see the Mutts not make the playoffs, it would give me much pleasure to see us knock out both the Brew Crew and the Phils.
Savannah Guy- I saw your post last night regarding EROK. I used to go see him in Athens at the old High Hat club. Helluva blues guitarist. Is he still playing?
By Braveheart
September 21, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this
All I have to say about the Mets last night in the 9th is JOR-HEY! JOR-HEY, JOR-HEY! JOR-HEY! JOOOOOOOOOOOOOR-HEY!
By Shaun
September 21, 2007 9:23 AM | Link to this
Braveheart, also another aspect of looking at pitcher strikeouts are what they indicate rather than the fact than the strikeouts in and of themselves are so important (although I would contend that a certain level of strikeouts are necessary to maintain long-term major league success).
Strikeouts indicate obviously that a pitcher can miss bats but also that a pitcher can keep hitters from making solid contact.
By tws
September 21, 2007 9:30 AM | Link to this
You can’t make chicken salad out of you know what. Nor can Roger McDowell. He cannot turn Smoltz into Cormier, nor can he turn Cormier into Smoltz. His problem is the same as Leo’s at Baltimore. Too many Cormiers, too few Smoltzes.
By Paladin
September 21, 2007 9:32 AM | Link to this
I understand that Anders is now over on the Phillies blog trying to convince them how invincible the Muts are.
By Shaun
September 21, 2007 9:34 AM | Link to this
Braveheart, one more thing. It’s not that hitter strikeouts are good. It’s that what most of us see as a lot of strikeouts, really isn’t that many for a hitter that is in the lineup everyday and performs well in a decent portion of his non-strikeout plate appearances. But strikeouts are obviously bad for hitters because they are outs.
By STRETCH
September 21, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this
BOY, LOOK AT THOSE 5 OR 10 GAMES BLOWN BY BOBBY COX OR THE BULLPEN EARLIER THIS SEASON…WOW!!!
By KC
September 21, 2007 9:39 AM | Link to this
5 starters have won in a row for the Braves for the first time this season.
Doesn’t this have the same feel as the bullpen pitching great last September after it was already too late?!
Difference is, last year’s team had bullpen problems AND starting problems.
I’ve been waiting ever since Tex and Mahay arrived for this team to start firing on all cylinders. I’ve been convinced (particularly as of July 31st) that this team was/is capable of playing great baseball.
It just sucks that they’re starting too late. Unless of course we win out and the Mets go 5-5 the rest of the way! =)
I know…. I know it’s not going to happen, no on has to say it.
By Paladin
September 21, 2007 9:39 AM | Link to this
Braveheart Please answer Shaun or he will “one more thing…” you, and us, to death.
By Braves Fan 79
September 21, 2007 9:42 AM | Link to this
Bobby Cox: man why did it take you 150 games for you to stop playing woodcrap every 3rd or so game!?? With orr and woodcrap in the lineup earlier in the season that wasnt our B team…that was more like our D team! So now we FINIALLY win 5 in a row….mmmm WONDER WHY! Anyone that blames us only having 3 sweeps on the season on pitching is dead wrong! Blame it on the fact that everytime we went for a sweep we thru out our D team!
This sucks….i dont care what anyone says. U put escobar on this team out of spring training…and dont wait till the finial 20 games to FINIALLY realize that woodcrap SUCKS….and we make the PLAYOFFS! REGARDLESS OF PITCHING!!
By Braveheart
September 21, 2007 9:49 AM | Link to this
Shaun, I actually do understand what you are saying.
It was just me being a wisearse yet again but also asking something that has kind of bothered me about the sabermetricians.
It’s like you hear them talk too often about the irrelevance of strikeouts with batters but then praise the relevance of strikeouts for pitchers, seemingly not remembering what they just said about hitters and strikeouts.
I get the idea of both. I just wish sometimes so many of them would not talk like it’s an absolute truth that strikeouts are irrelevant for hitters but highly relevant for pitchers.
It just seems terribly inconsistent despite making some sense in theory and practice for pitchers and hitters.
I just wish more of them would try to resolve the conflict in their staunchly held positions about the relevance of strikeouts on hitting and pitching.
Too often, they seem to engage in the sort of arguments you were taking people to task for yesterday afternoon depending upon whether they are supporting their argument about hitting or pitching.
By tim
September 21, 2007 9:54 AM | Link to this
David O’Brien,
I want to give you props for giving insight into the Braves and using stats to make a point. Most writers try to say something confrontational to get responses, but I think that opinions are like a***** unless you have facts to back up what you say. I feel that you are the best sports writer that the AJC has to offer. Keep up the good work and GO BRAVES
By Shaun
September 21, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this
Braveheart, I guess maybe they try to stick to one argument at a time. I don’t think it’s that they are avoiding the apparent conflict between hitter strikeouts and pitcher strikeouts. They are just avoiding making three or four arguments instead of one when the subject comes up.
By Mark
September 21, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this
I am a Braves fan and want to see them succeed which they won’t, but I hope the Phillies make the playoffs.
The Phillies, unlike the Braves and Mets, play with a sense of urgency. They have overcome alot including a terrible pitching staff, untimely injuries, and terrible losses (i.e. that 9-8 loss that they had to us when we came back from 6 runs down the last two innings to win in our last final at bat) but they find ways to win.
Jimmy Rollins is the MVP whether they make the playoffs or not. People thought he was crazy when he proclaimed, ” We are the team to beat in the East”. He was constantly criticized by NY Media especially the first series that the Phillies played in NY. I know they haven’t won anything yet, but whether they do or they don’t it’s not his fault. He has been the best player on his team and the most clutch. He comes through every night. We need players like that on the Braves. Guys who can make controversial statements and back it up.
That is what leadership is about. Instead of talking about not getting enough breaks, we need to make bold statements and back it up. The last time we had someone to do that was David Justice in 1995 when he said that “if the Braves didn’t win the WS the fans would probably burn the player’s houses down.” He was criticized for those statements, but he ended up hitting the homerun that decided the game. That was the last time the team played with urgency. I remember at the beginning of the season after we acquired Marquis Grissom that there mentality was IF WE DON’T WIN THE WORLD SERIES, THE SEASON IS A FAILURE.
That’s Urgency and that is what we have lacked since then.
People might disagree with me, but this business like approach has hurt us for years. It helps during the 162 game grind, but it kills us in big series. That is the main reason Bobby must go. Francouer, McCann, Escobar, and Kelly still have fire but it will be taken if they continue to play for Bobby. Look what happened to Chipper and Andruw.
I know some people are going to say what about Smoltz, but he is different than any player on this team. With him pitching every 5th day he has that natural fire. He is most clutch and durable pitcher in baseball. That is why he was such a great closer and is still a great pitcher. He may not have as many wins as Glavine and Maddux, but ALL Braves fans would prefer him in a big game over those two.
The thing that p** me off about Bobby was his attitude on the playoffs. He would alway say it’s a crap shoot. That’s BS. The only sports where you could say that there playoff format was a crap shoot is College Basketball, College Football, and the NFL Playoffs. The reason is because luck can win it all for you. The best team doesn’t necessarily win in those sports. In baseball and the NBA the best team wins. If a team lucks up and beats you in the first game, you have time to regroup. Baseball especially is the one sport that you can overcome huge deficits to win playoff series because each game is different. It’s the only sport where a team has ever come back from a a 3-0 deficit to win the series.(2004 Red Sox) All those times that the Braves lost the World Series, NLCS, and Division Series they had no urgency because they kept the same approach they had during those seasons. That the manager. In many of those seasons we probably were the better team, but we had no urgency.
Next year with it being BOBBY and JS last year we need to play with that URGENCY. GO BRAVES!!!
By Kentavo
September 21, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this
Has anyone noticed that Cox is now managing the way he should all season, with a sense of urgency? I mean the short leash on pithcers and rare Thorman-Woodward sightings, and Willie not in the leadoff spot.
By ernesto
September 21, 2007 10:24 AM | Link to this
Okay, still a looooong shot, but we’ve got Huddy going tonight, Colorado loses and we jump over them, we’re now only 3 back of the Phils and we play 3 with them (at least our fate is in our own hands.)
Now if SD would just stumble.
Still, if we win again tonight things get EVEN MORE interesting.
By Shaun
September 21, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this
Mark, I guess that’s why Wild Card teams have performed pretty well in the playoffs, because the best team wins, huh?
I guess that’s why a Cardinals team, that was probably worse than some non-playoff teams, won the World Series last season.
And, actually a team overcoming a 3-0 deficit has happened in hockey, a few times I think.
By Hammy the Brave
September 21, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this
Lew,
I appreciate your posts here but I must disagree with you on 2 points.
First, I consider your opinion of the potential teams to which we can trade Renteria to be far too closed-minded and ill-informed. What quotes from baseball people tell you he can’t play in the American League?
I believe you are only going by what Boston fans thought about him, when he gained weight and pulled a groin. In my opinion, Detroit, Chicago and Toronto in the AL all need a ss, and have pitching to potentially trade. In fact, I read in the Detroit paper that their starting ss said he would be willing to move to 1B if they traded for Cesar Izturas, another ss I can’t remember, or for Renteria.
While it does make fan blogs more interesting to insert your own emotion and opinion, it’s most important to not portray your opinion as fact, especially when we don’t have the inside info on trades and such, as fans.
Also Lew, I disagree with your assessment(and others too) of Leo as such a great pitching coach that you see him as without fault, and capable of righting the Braves’ pitching staff in their present declining state.
I do give Leo a great deal of credit for the Braves’ great pitching performances in the past. But the fact remains that the staff was declining his last 2 yrs. here and his first 2 yrs in Baltimore ,their staff has been exceedingly bad with exceptions like Bedard and Guthrie.
On the other hand, I agree McDowell still has to prove himself. Part of that is JS getting 1 and maybe 2 more solid starters, and the budget hopefully opening up a little.
It just seems to me that those who support Leo are often too thin-skinned if anyone points out his flaws(not as good with young pitchers, too headstrong in his approach to always pitching away), and that’s not being realistic. If you point out Roger’s flaws, you need to admit Leo had some too.
Just wanted to spark some more rational thought on both these topics,
Hammy the Brave
By keylargo25
September 21, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this
OK, forget hiring Leo, forget trading for new pitchers, forget offseason free agents, I have found the answer. During extensive research for my next post I found the answer. All we have to do is have someone with direct connections to Bobby Cox (I believe his name is Robert?)get it to the stadium by 2 PM so the guys can put this in for the rest of the season.
http://www.pitching.com/velocity-video/?gclid=CNfTzvHe1I4CFQwsOAodQUL4AQ
By Lew
September 21, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this
Shaun-Excuse me Dude. You damn well did argue that Howard’s season was not exceptional. You carried the whole line of crap on for three days. When one denizen got tired of your moronic rant, you took it up with yet another. Don’t even try to tell us you didn’t. You surely did.
By Braveheart
September 21, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this
2004, first in overall ERA (3.74) and second in starters ERA (3.84);
Wasn’t that the only year Leo Mazzone did not have Maddux, Smoltz, or Glavine in his starting rotation?
By TampaBrave
September 21, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this
Mark
Got to disagree a little bit on the crapshoot thing. A great team or elements of it can hit slumps, OR maybe certain elements of one team matchup well against another. There are all kinds of things that can go wrong. If it can happen in the other sports you listed, then it can happen in baseball. If Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz would have always brought their A game, we’re not talking about this now. But it was not always that way. This is not a vacuum, where you fill out the lineup card and everything goes as planned. Always a wrinkle somewhere.
By brent a.
September 21, 2007 10:44 AM | Link to this
Even though we have to catch 2 teams, and both are still a longshot, in a weird, psychological sense, the Phillies continuing to win (at least through the week-end) may actually help our plight.
I don’t think the Mets are paying much attention to us, but the Phillies are in their heads. If the Phillies continue to win through the week-end, that keeps pressure on the uptight Mets, making it easier for us to pick up ground.
All I ask of the Braves is to not beat yourselves. I mean, wow!, we have a 5 game winning streak with Hudson and Smoltz pitching the next 2 games, and Sheets might not be able to go on Sunday.
Just when you think it’s over -it’s not, but just when you think you’ve got momentum - kapow!
As unfathomable as this is to think about:
If Braves go 8-1 and Mets go 4-6
tie
While I sure don’t expect that to happen, it’s still not completely outside the realm of possibility.
Keeping in mind that our best stretch of the season is 7-1 (to start the year), I doubt this, but hey, at least our games are still worth watching.
Wouldn’t it be amazing to hear Skip & Chip do the final game on TBS next Sunday, and actually have it mean something?
I would get (1991) Dave Justice Homer-esque tingles all over again.
Go Braves!
By Mark
September 21, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this
Shaun, I knew I would have to hear from you. You are sort of like KC, but anyway to answer your question Yes.
You don’t think that just because you are a Wildcard team, you not the best team. You have the nerve to use St. Louis as an example. St. Louis prior to last year was winning almost 100 games a year. How many times Shaun have you seen teams have injuries and start off slow at the beginnig of the season and then get healthy and win it all.
Better yet, how many times have you seen teams that were lacking something and then make a big move during the season, barely get in, and win it all.
I guess you feel teams get lucky in 7 game series.
Shaun if you think about who St. Louis played in the playoffs last year, you would know why they won it all. They won because of their experience which made them the best team. They beat a Mets team in 7 games and unexperienced Detroit Tigers team who was just happy to be in the WS.
I know you are going to say something like what about the 2003 Marlins because they were so young. They may have been young, but they clearly had the best pitching staff. Especially their starters. That’s why all of their pitchers with the exception of D. Willis were signed for large amounts of money from other teams. (Pavano, Burnett, and Beckett) Unlike the Braves they manufactured runs in the playoffs with guys like Castillo and Pierre.
Just because a team gets in as a Wildcard, doesn’t mean they aren’t the better team. If the Yankees win this year are you going to say they weren’t the better team.
By Renegator
September 21, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this
You guys bashing Leo need to remember one thing:
If his success is all because the Braves had 3 HOF pitchers - then so is Bobbys. You can’t say Leo doesn’t get any credit for the Braves run and then give credit to Booby.
What’s good for the goose…
By Renegator
September 21, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this
Why can this 2007 Braves team not perform well under pressure? In early August when the Mets stumbled and the Braves got to within 4 1/2 games - the crumbled. The Mets came into town and the Braves folded like a cheap suit - getting swept right out of contention.
Now that they are all but out of it - the pressure is off and they are playing like the team we all knew they could be. Where does that come from? The veteran players? The young players? Management?
Can anything be done about it? I’m sure Shaun will argue that it is all luck anyway…
By Shaun
September 21, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this
Lew, what is your deal with me? The argument I made was that Howard’s season wasn’t historically great, didn’t stand out historically, was not exceptional relative to the best seasons of all time. I did NOT argue it wasn’t great or exceptional relative to most other players in 2006 or wasn’t great.
Here’s my argument; read it for yourself:
http://baseballtruth.com/extrainnings/extrainnings_091906.htm
Not trying to pimp out my work. Just trying to show my argument.
By \\\\\\\\\\BERIGAN//////////
September 21, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this
I didn’t see the game yesterday, but just seeing the highlights, it really does look like Jeff Bennett has good stuff, and a true desire to pitch, doesn’t it??? Wish it was a bit earlier that he came up….I’d love to see him pitch for a month.
By GermanBravesFan
September 21, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this
Isn’t it amazing how, at the end of a 162-game season, EVERY game DOES count! There will be a lot of “what if’s” at the end of this month! The killer was the series in which the Braves were swept by the Mets at home back in August…
By Shaun
September 21, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this
Mark, yeah, the better teams doesn’t win over the course of 162 games. Great teams never lose 4 out of 7, do they?
There are all sorts of factors that may lead to an inferior teams winning 4 out of 7 or 3 out of 5.
By NCBravesFan
September 21, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this
Should we put out an Amber Alert for Anders, Drool, NCZ, etc. etc? :)
By Mark
September 21, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this
Tampabrave, I don’t know. The main reason we would lose is not because of the pitching, but because we couldn’t manufacture runs. Please don’t compare Smoltz to the likes of Glavine and Maddux when it comes to the playoffs because his record speaks for itself. He for the most part was always on his A game in the playoffs. That is one category where his stats make a difference.
By Shaun
September 21, 2007 11:15 AM | Link to this
Renegator, yeah, there is no pressure now that the Braves have to win virtually every game from here on out, is there? There was no pressure during their current winning streak that they had to go on to stay alive, was there?
Stop trying to twist me into something I’m not and read my posts from now on, please.
By Paladin
September 21, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this
I give up! Today is going to be exactly like yesterday. Maybe if I take a long nap I can stay awake until Savannah Guy and some others who want to talk about Something different come on. One can hope.
By tim
September 21, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this
It was great to see some pitching from someone not named Smoltz or Hudson. I still haven’t given up on us going to the playoffs. Even though I know it’s a long shot. Why o why did SD have to get hot…
By Paladin
September 21, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this
NCBravesFan An Amber alert would not be appropriate. They are all dark brown.
By Lew
September 21, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this
Shaun-You’re the one that brought it back up this morning, in a post addressed to me. I called it quits last night. I have nothing against you. The problem is entirely yours. You make numerous bombastic statements, supposedly backed up with stats and theories that no one but you believes in or has a vague interest in. You drill home your point ad nauseum. You argue on and on and on and on, ad infinitum, absorbing about as much from our responses as a brick wall and you wonder why people get contentious with you? You parse words worse than a cheap lawyer in a Jacques Penne suit and refuse to listen to any one when they explain to you in no uncertain terms just how wrong you are. Repeatedly. Like I said-If you had not brought the subject back up (believe me, I was tired of your arguement about Howard a full year ago and didn’t agree with it then), no one else would have. Then you go and act like I misunderstood you. Just WTF did you expect, Dude?
By tim
September 21, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this
The thing about the playoffs is that with 2 great pitchers an inferior team can beat the better team. With the days off between games you can have a number 1 starter go 3 times within 7 games. The team might not be as good but 1 player can dominate a series
By Gil in Mechanicsville
September 21, 2007 11:28 AM | Link to this
Pitchers are like wine, bring them along too quickly and all you get is grape juice, wait too long and you have vinegar.
Some are more expensive than others but not necessarily better. Sometimes we are led by what so called experts tell us only to be disappointed.
So let it be with Bennett, he came along just in time to whet our appetites for what could be. He could turn out to be a very good year.
By Braveheart
September 21, 2007 11:30 AM | Link to this
Paladin, don’t go to sleep just yet. Get the big screen ready, I’m coming over to watch this Lew/Shaun showdown which will undoubtedly take all day long. It’s almost high noon.
By BravesFanInRockies
September 21, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this
From CR’s story:
This is the first time that all five starters in the rotation have won consecutively.
That’s an amazing stat, especially for those of us who got spoiled over the past 16 years.
Congrats to Bennett for a fine game against his old mates. Looks like we have another guy who’ll be auditioning for the 5th starter’s spot next year. And as someone else mentioned, he’s got much better stuff than Buddy (who’s probably hoping to land on someone else’s roster next year).
So whaddaya think — the Braves try to get a solid, innings-eating #3 starter for Edgar and let Chucky, JoJo, Lance and Jeff duke it out for the final two rotation spots?
By Lew
September 21, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this
Shaun-About the link you sent. That was one post out of a three or four day marathon on the topic. You want it ended then flipping stop-quit bringing it all up-it’s that simple.
I have nothing against you personally. How could I? I’ve never met you. I’m sure you’re a wonderful son, husband and neighbor. I’ve never made disparaging remarks about you or your ancestry. I don’t cuss you out like I do certain trolls. I just flat out disagree with much of what you ramble on about-that’s all. Now we know you admitted to an intellectual inferiority complex yesterday. You won’t manage to convince anyone here that you’re being persecuted-just that you have yet another complex. Please just quit while you’re ahead.
By tim
September 21, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this
Gil in Mechanicsville, Do you mind if I quote that in my conversations at the ted tonight? Do you have a copyright on the “Pitchers are like wine” saying?
By TampaBrave
September 21, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this
Mark
Agree with Smoltz and manufacturing runs in general, but in some of those games it is hard to know if manufacturing a run would have made a difference, Hindsight is 20/20.
By tim
September 21, 2007 11:50 AM | Link to this
About the topic of Leo. I always felt that managers get too much credit for a win and too much blame for a loss.You leave a pitcher in and he gets shelled and they scream why didn’t you pull him..That same pitcher gets yanked and the bullpen blows the lead and people scream why didn’t you leave him in. It’s always easy to 2nd guess those type of decisions. I still have an open mind on McDowell considering I don’t think he has much too work with. It’s not if Kyle Davies is lighting it up now that he has moved on
By GeorgetownKid
September 21, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this
BravesFanInRockies
I think we’ll be in trouble if we have more than one of Chucky, Jo-Jo, Lance, and Jeff. We’ll be in real good shape if one of those guys are our #5 starter.
If Hampton is healthy, we’ll have a real nice rotation (assuming we can get a good #3 starter in a trade). But, if he isn’t healthy, or if we cannot land a good starter in the offseason, we’ll have a comparable back-end of the rotation as we have now.
James, Bennett, and Reyes are good #5 starters. Cormier is a fine emergency starter. None of them are ideal #4 starters.
And remember, Reyes and James still have options. With Cormier, he is either in Atlanta next year, or he’s gone. I don’t know what Bennett’s status will be.
By Gil in Mechanicsville
September 21, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this
As long as you don’t say they are winos and say I said that. Being misquoted has gotten me in a lot of trouble. Alas, I know that once it is put out there into cyberspace it becomes public property.
I can see it now, the comparison of Moylan to Yellowtail and who would be Ripple? Mad Dog 20-20? The possibilities are endless aren’t they?
By Lew
September 21, 2007 12:03 PM | Link to this
Braveheart-The “Old Fart” can go nap, if he needs to. I’m done (short of the Energizer Bunny of Sabremetrics starting up again and attempting to take me on)-though it does beat Troll Bashing. I would much rather discuss Jeff Bennett ‘s performance from last night. I was really impressed with that kid. It’s been a while since I saw a new Braves’ pitcher with a curve like his and a 94 MPH fast ball to offset it. He showed determination (it was in the look he held all night) like I haven’t seen since Glavine first came up. Now I realize this was one game, but the guy seems to have the necessary tools. While Coach may be a bit premature in anointing Bennett as the back of the rotation savior, I really did like what I saw. I sure hope he can continue like last night. I’d still feel more comfortable with a good #3 innings eating starter, though.
By Paladin
September 21, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this
Lew MrOld Fart, to you.
By tim
September 21, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this
I think Chuck James is a capable 3/4 starter. He is 11-10 with 4.11 ERA. Which is better than most starters in the league. I would love the rotation of 1. Smoltz 2. Hudson 3. dominate new guy 4/5. Chuck James/ Mike Hampton
By David O'Brien
September 21, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this
GeorgetownKid, I’m with ya. Agreed. And I do think the Braves are thinking along those same lines.
As one prominent Brave told me, Liberty through its liason/prez McGuirk, has indicated it won’t be about money, or that money won’t prevent Braves from fielding a championship-caliber team.
If that’s the case, they won’t have an excuse for not spending what it takes to sign Glavine or trading for another pitcher with a significant salary.
I will say, there is a lot of sentiment on the team to sign Glavine, and it’s definitely going to be an issue that arises. Maybe sooner than expected, if the Mets continue their nearly unprecedented collapse (although I do think they’ll hold on and get in the playoffs, the World Series is not looking very promising for the Mets at this point).
I could see Glavine retiring if they won the World Series, or at least got there. But otherwise, I think he’d give every consideration to coming back to the Braves as long as they don’t offer him a slap-in-the-face low-ball offer, compared to what Mets would pay.
How does this sound: Smoltz/Hudson/Glavine, in any order, followed by Hampton if healthy, and any one of a handful of guys (but Chuck James’ job, long as he doesn’t fall on face) fighting for the fifth and backup sixth spots?
And they should know Hampton’s health by mid-December, since he plans to pitch winter ball beginning in mid/late November, precisely to give Braves and enough time to know if he’ll be ready, or have a good idea, at least. There will still be free agents available and trades possible if he does that, if he makes 4-5 winter-ball starts by mid-December.
Remember, last year Hampton just threw a couple times in instructional league, had what he thought was scar-tissue tearing, then shut it down until spring. Turns out it was tendon tearing off bone, not scar tissue.
This time, he’s not going to follow that course. He’s going to pitch winter ball, and from the start of the winter-ball season, not jump in there late.
By BravesFanInRockies
September 21, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this
GeorgetownKid,
Don’t know which one of us is right about whether the Braves can succeed with two of the current guys on the staff in the rotation next year.
I’ve ripped on Chucky all season, and then last night on ESPN Radio, Dave Campbell pointed out that Chucky’s ERA is a third of a run lower than the league average. A few tweaks in the off-season and he may be a fine #4, with one of the other guys in the fifth spot.
To be sure, if the Braves can get a solid #3 and Hampton can contribute at all, the team looks really strong next year — mashers on offense, deep rotation, solid bullpen.
By Jeffrey
September 21, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this
Good article by DOB. I always felt that Leo could help a veteran but usually destroyed a young pitcher due to a lack of patience and understanding. Jason Schmidt and Jason Marquis were prime examples.
Poor old Bruce Chen, wherever he goes Leo shows up to wreck his stay. He escapes Leo’s doghouse in Atlanta, has a pretty good year in Baltimore, and Leo shows up there. Bruce Chen then falls of the face of the map again.
By ppaddy123
September 21, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this
DOB, I have been reading your blog for about two seasons now, and I have to say this is by far the best story I have seen posted. As a matter of fact, I printed the story to share with co-workers that are Braves fans but don’t blog.
By Gil in Mechanicsville
September 21, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this
Lew During the game last Saturday that Bennett pitched in Richmond, I sat about 25 feet from home plate right behind the on deck circle on the first base side. You could really get a good sense of the drop of his off speed stuff and he pitched much the same type of game as you saw last night on TV.
He does not seem to mind pitching to contact but batters can look foolish when they get caught flat footed by his change up or curve ball. They have to respect his fastball so it really appears to make him effective. The thing I like about him is he doesn’t walk a lot of people.
All the strike outs last night think was an anomaly. That was a team that was aggressive that swung at that nasty off speed pitch he has.
By tim
September 21, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this
DOB or others, Has anybody heard if the Braves plan to go after Texeira for the long run?
By Shaun's Pet Rock
September 21, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this
Sure am glad to have him arguing with you guys; otherwise he would be practicing on me.
By Lew
September 21, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this
BravesFanInRockies-I agree. Chuck’s problem this year has been three fold in my opinion. 1.He is a #4 starter pitching in the #3 spot. 2. The run support in his losses is abysmal. 3. The month of August, his only really poor month, was marked by arm problems, likely due to fatigue-he hadn’t pitched this much before.
However, when you view it in terms of his ERA (like you just did) and realize that the Braves were 16-13 in his starts and they scored a total of 20 runs in those 13 losses (in his four losses from May 23 to June 24, they scored one run-ONE), he looks much better than some give him credit. I think he will be a good #4 starter, though I would like to see him develop another good pitch.
By TennesseePaul
September 21, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this
Sheeeeeesh. This has gotten crazy in here. Lew, Payne is correct in one sense, his Howard Debate last year was not a matter of “exceptional”, but that, even though Howard won the ROY the year before and was in line to follow up that Rookie season with an MVP award and, in his second season in the show, was on a march to hit 60 HR in the post steroid era, it was not “historic”.
It’s a matter of semantics. Exchange the word “exceptional” with “historic”. I still say it was, but my tool of measurement for historic activities has more than one setting. It contains feats, periodic relevance, career duration, and many other matters and factors. It encompasses the kind of stuff that Tim Kurkjian gets excited about.
As for that whole “Hypothesis” thing, Payne, original work matters in creating something new. Typically the term Hypothesis is used in conjunction with the effort of an individual’s pursuit in understanding an event, which has no known description, by means of the scientific method, which by natural extension would require original work. That was why I used the word. Not as a snide remark towards you, though the “regurgitating an answer some one else came up with” was. HA! =)
Aside from that, when it comes to an Hypothesis, the first order of business should be a question, “Has anyone else already looked into this?” It’ll save you a lot of time and trouble answering that question first. But the Hypothesis is still a statement. That’s what the word means. It is in no way a question. I was merely extremely surprised you said isn’t a hypothesis basically the same thing as a question which is why I commented. And in the words of Forrest Gump: That’s all I have to say about that.
In other news, if Chipper keeps this up, and doesn’t make another out all season, he could end with an average of .386. The man is a machine!
By keylargo25
September 21, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this
I’m going out on a limb to give a little push for the Braves to trade for Scott Olsen of the Marlins. He’s going against Pedro and the Muts tonight so you guys take a look at him.
He has burnt some bridges in Miami and the Marlins will likely move him this offseason, probably for two prospects. I believe he could start the season as a 4 and maybe end it up as a 3.
Olsen reminds me of Steve Avery and is only 24. He won 12 games last year and 9 this year on a last place team.
By Shaun
September 21, 2007 12:35 PM | Link to this
Lew, of course I’m going to bring it up when you bring it up and twist my point. I’m sorry that I gave you the impression that my point about Howard’s season was something different than what it actually was. But, now you can clearly see what my thoughts are and were about Howard’s 2006 season. So can we post about something more interesting now?
By Gil in Mechanicsville
September 21, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this
There are generally three types of debaters, one is the person who talks loudest thinking the person who shouts the best wins the argument. The second is the one who talks the longest trying to wear down their opponent by simply outlasting them and the third who actually uses facts to support their argument. Guess which one usually loses.
By Carroll Rogers
September 21, 2007 12:41 PM | Link to this
tim, i’d say chances are very good the braves have interest in teixeira long-term. what they do about it has to depend on what they do with andruw this winter for one, how much liberty media feels like spending and how boras-like teixeira’s long-term demands are.
By TampaBrave
September 21, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this
Lew
Trying to comprehend what you are stating about James being a 4 pitching in the #3 slot of the rotation. Are saying that our expectations of him were too high? Regardless of where you pitch in the rotation, you definitely don’t get paired up with the other teams #3. The only thing I can gather is that the expectations were too high for a guy pitching in the 3 slot.
By Shaun
September 21, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this
TennesseePaul, thanks for bringing some perspective to all this, seriously. Not being smart.
My point was simply you shouldn’t seek out what will back up your hypothesis, you should seek out all the information that may prove or disprove (to whatever extent the hypothesis can be proven or dis-proven). If that information includes something from other research, I don’t think there is anything shameful in that.
I know I stick to my convictions maybe more than I should but it’s because I believe they are worth a good debate.
If I debate against or for something, it’s because I firmly believe that all the evidence is for or against it. And I’m going to do my darnedest to shed whatever light I can to show the evidence for and against it. If it means bringing up other people’s research, so be it; sue me. If I think they are right, I’m going to bring up their research.
By Lew
September 21, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this
TenPaul-Isn’t an historic occurrence exceptional in it’s own right? Semantics, for sure. Shaun- I did give it up-I’ve been talking about pitching. No one twisted your words, just defined them somewhat differently. Enough. Please. As for interesting-Dude, are you capable?
By TampaBrave
September 21, 2007 1:02 PM | Link to this
Fleece the Devil Rays!!
That’s what they are there for. If we don’t do it, the Yankees and Red Sox will.
By TennesseePaul
September 21, 2007 1:02 PM | Link to this
Lew: Yes. Semantics. It’s all Semantics. So much so that one might become an anti-semantite.
By TampaBrave
September 21, 2007 1:25 PM | Link to this
Shaun,
Have you always needed to be stroked constantly?
By Bob, Journalist
September 21, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this
Gil, I became painfully aware of the existence of a hybrid … the longwinded shouter back in March, 1963 … when this southern boy went up against a young highschool math teacher of dubious intellect from South Philly … the subject being argued has been forgotten but the memory of the experience remains clear. I remember pinning him after a body slam is record time but he was awarded the match on points … both the referee and the audience, numbering about, 50 were also from South Philly.
Since that time, I have rarely been accused of being succinct.
As a related aside … while working as a bellhop, my baby brother found out that the more timely the service, the smaller the tip … “if you did it quick, it didn’t require much effort”.
This fellow Bennett seemed to throw pretty good without exerting too much effort … what’s the skinny as to why is he just now emerging from under the rock?
By Test
September 21, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this
Glavine would the only “free agent” worth it in my mind. Everyone else on that list is, well, depressing. And the saddest thing about it is, everyone else on that list would demand multiple years and a salary not worthy of them. That is what frightens me at night. Hence my perpetual pontificating on possible trades. That, in my mind is the only way to secure a good arm this offseason, other than Glavine of course.
But, Glavine isn’t the shut down lock-out pitcher he was of old. Perhaps he would be when re-united with Smoltz. Only one way to find out I suppose. He’d certainly field a better rotation than this year’s staff. So that’s cool.
I keep forgetting Maddux is also a FA this off-season… I think he has an option or something. Perhaps we bring ‘em all back for one more go. Sign Tex, AJ and Francoeur and then beat the tar outa everyone.
Way I figure it, Liberty wants to increase the franchise value so that, in 4 years or so when they attempt to flip this team, the stand to make a profit over the 450 million they acquired it for. Nothing would help that cause more than signing up the best damn team history has seen on a 4 or 5 year deal and running the table for 4 or 5 straight years. Pull in Glav, pull in A-Rod. Pull in Johan when he’s a FA, or trade for him. Every top guy you can find a way to get this season and next season, gittum. Blank Check baby! YEEEEEHAAAWWWW!!!!
I love Friday’s.
By beachcomber
September 21, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this
Gil - Thanks as always for your Va. insight into our AAA prospects (and suspects). Your comments above on Bennett were enlightening.
Now can somebody tell a clueless old man who couldn’t listen to the game last night why the switch from Cormier, the listed starter, to Bennett?
Thanks!
By Jags
September 21, 2007 2:00 PM | Link to this
Leo needed to move on and Roger was a whipsaw hire that was also a mistake.
Nice guy, probably a ok coach but he lacked the resume to replace Leo.
This team is too inconsistent in the pitching department for anything but a great pitching coach.
If this team wants to win a WS if cannot keep flipping players and doing very little in key coaching spots.
Roger cannot fix James, Cormier, Jo Jo, Pranto, …. they struggle or are send down to the minors.
Sure some of them are not that good but some are fixable and Roger seems to come up light in the fixing dept.
And please dont wheel out our resident Aussie as a McDowell success story. He was nice find who was ready to shine.
By Braveheart
September 21, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this
Oh, the hell with this. I’m trading Kelly Johnson, Edgar Renteria, Frenchy, Chuck James, Matt Diaz, Tex for Crawford, BaDLeDLi, Upton, Dukes, Kazmir, Pena, Young, Shields. Hopefully this will make most happy. It will satisfy the whole trade certain players contingent and the whole I want the entire crappy Devil Rays on my team contigent. I guess my hope is that if Hudson and Smoltz were on the Devil Rays, they would be World Series contenders. Chrissakes.
By flbravesgirl
September 21, 2007 2:06 PM | Link to this
Keylargo, I can’t imagine the Braves going after Olsen. He seems to have flunked citizenship.
Journalist Bob, it’s Bennett’s first season back from Tommy John surgery. Apparently he wasn’t stretched out ‘til recently. I was impressed with this first look at him. He didn’t seem intimidated at all, unlike some of the other guys we’ve tried.
By TennesseePaul
September 21, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this
That test post was me. Forgot I had been testing something concerning stats on an old blog. Here’s what I found…
Now if that worked, it’s much nicer looking than the old way of doing it, don’t you think? To bad I don’t have any real statistical point to post. But as soon as I find one, rest assured denizens, I will employ this new trick I’ve found.
By Paladin
September 21, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this
beachcomber I am this blog’s clueless old man. You will have to come up with another moniker.
Then, I would like to pose this to you hypothesis hypers: If a hippo had a hypotenuse, given that both of his sides are equal, would he be square? You may use pencil and paper. Shaun, you may use your abacus.
By beachcomber
September 21, 2007 2:15 PM | Link to this
Braveheart - Your 2:01 post. Great idea. As a denizen of the Tampa Bay area, I could have my favorite team as my home town team.
Now if they could just change uniforms!
By Mike
September 21, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this
Liberty Media cutting payroll drastically? See link.
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/columnists/paulhagen/20070921PaulHagen_Countingmoreonbullpens.html
By wg
September 21, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this
I don’t get all the talk about bringing Glavine back next year. The staff needs to get younger and we can use that money and AJ’s money to sign TEX and trade Edgar for a # 2 or # 3 starter. The free agents coming on the market next year are no better than #3s or 4s so why screw around and waste money on Glavine at his age. Who knows if he will break down.
By TennesseePaul
September 21, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this
Rumors are nothing. I’d like actual quotes. Sources. Names. Some one must name names.
By Paladin
September 21, 2007 2:46 PM | Link to this
Congratulations wg, you are the 150th person to come up with the “idea” of trading Renteria for a “2 or 3 starter”. But, to claim your prize you—unlike the 149 others—must tell us the team that will be willing to swap a 2 or 3 starter for Renteria, batting title, or not.
By Lew
September 21, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this
Mike-Not to sure where this guy gets his information. Doesn’t seem that our own sources have been told anything like what he says. Actually, part of the agreement allowing Liberty to buy the team was that payroll not be reduced and our current management stay for several years. Also, all indications from their spokespersons are that there will be somewhat of a boost in the salary level-in fact, the moves made at the trade deadline would seemingly indicate a bounce in payroll-not the opposite. I believe it’s wishful thinking on the part of Philly reporters-not to mention that the Philadelphia Daily News is widely considered a joke in Philly. I know- that’s where I was born and raised, before I got smart at 17 and moved to Georgia.
By Lew
September 21, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this
wg-Now signing Glavine is a debatable topic, for sure. However, him breaking down is hardly a concern. He has now and has always had a nice, easy pitching motion. He has never missed a game on the DL in his entire career. In fact, the only time he’s ever been hurt is when he was in a taxi accident, as a passenger. He is the model of durability.
By AZBravoFan
September 21, 2007 2:54 PM | Link to this
JAGS: So I get it. If a pitcher fails it’s the pitching coach’s fault. But if he succeeds he was just “ready to shine”. Why even bother with a pitching coach at all?
By Carroll Rogers
September 21, 2007 3:00 PM | Link to this
new blog is up….tho i hate to tear you away from this one. it was really good.
By Shaun
September 21, 2007 3:01 PM | Link to this
New blog is up
By wg
September 21, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this
Paladin. #1, I have been saying this for 2 months about Edgar. #2 The trade end comes up after the season to see what teams will need a shortstop and be willing to swap a pitcher for Edgar. Just remember a couple of years ago when all those shortstops moved around which is what got Edgar to Boston. #3 recheck your free agent pitchers, no one out there is worth any big money.
By Mike
September 21, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this
Lew, thanks for the heads up. I read the same things about payroll as you did. I was curious as to whether someone had gotten info that the AJC guys had not received.
By ppaddy123
September 21, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this
Concerning Tom Glavine, I think that ship has sailed for both Glavine and the Braves. We need to bring in some young arms next year. Smoltz and Hudson both seem to wear down during the season. (As I imagine all pitchers do during the course of a 162 game season) With the questions about Hampton’s health still lingering, a solid arm in the rotation will be a must. I like Chuck James but he has got to find another pitch. The third time thru the order guys are sitting on one pitch. It’s killed him all year.
Pitching is what made this a great team during the run. DOB’s stats in this blog prove that. We have the talent in the middle infield to make a trade for pitching. I don’t think it will be Escobar. He is in his prime as an athlete, and he’s a bargain. I love Renteria. To me, he’s the quiet leader of the team. But with the numbers he’s put up this year, he’ll never have more value than he has now.
One thing for sure, this will be one of the most interesting off seasons for the Braves. I’m torn on the Andruw situation. He’s been a Brave his entire career. And, even though he’s a pro athlete, I get the feeling he wants to stay (even for less money). But, I don’t think he will. Pressure from Boras and the players union will force him to take the largest contract available. It’s a business after all. And a move will do him and the Braves good. We don’t need to tie up that kind of money in a centerfielder. For 5-7 million dollars we can get a good centerfielder.
By wg
September 21, 2007 3:27 PM | Link to this
Lew - I am a huge Glavine fan, but given his age, it could turn out to be a huge waste of money. Just look at some of his starts this year (including last night. All these blogs about Glavine and Maddux don’t make a lot of sense. You can’t keep going back in time. The Braves need a horse to take over for Smoltz not a one year expensive rental.
By Mr. R.
September 21, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this
AJC, you racist pigs, where is the news regarding the shooting at Delaware State University this morning? Is it because it’s a Black College? You front page Virgina Tech. Shows your Biasness and your one sided prejudices. PIGS
By tyyosh
September 21, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this
DOB,
I wish someone would interview some of those reclamation projects and non-HOF’ers about Leo - that is where we would find out his impact and weaknesses. Smoltz, Maddux and (maybe) Glavine were going to be good regardless of whoever was their coach, I believe, and their perspective therefore would not indicate true impact. What would people like Millwood, Neagle, Burkett, Bielecki, Wright, Lightenberg, Stanton, and others say?
Also, lost in the stats is this human observation - that the ability to make the Big Pitch when it was really needed just seemed better under Leo (not perfect - just better). Would a hard-edged person like Leo make pitchers tougher and sharper mentally - more able to break through against adversity and make those big pitches? If so, then we would likely see a few games’ difference in the standings.
By Tom
September 21, 2007 4:24 PM | Link to this
Mazzone never wanted strike outs / power pitchers. As mentioned, down and away, down and away. Look at some of the K pitchers who had some success after leaving Atlanta. Jason Schmidt and Odalis Perez to name a few. I think there are much tougher jobs in baseball then being the pitching coach to Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz. Baltimore has given up 797 runs this year. This puts them at 6th worse in the league. Mazzone was an overrated bum getting undeserved acclaims. I want millions to watch baseball from the dug out and rock myself to oblivion for some major league team.
By ballgirl
September 21, 2007 5:47 PM | Link to this
I call it the Phil Jackson syndrome…anyone can be a successful coach with players like Maddox, Glavine and Smoltz. Even the 4 and 5 starters back then would have been at least a 2 starter on any other team. Leo was riding on their coattails for years! Now he is actually having to prove himself…and it’s not working! This argument brought up by DO is so ridiculous. I’ve been waiting all year for the loonies to bring it up. Obviously, the fans are smarter than David O’Brien because he’s the only loony I’ve heard bring it up! Statistics don’t lie. Maybe the Braves aren’t where they were then but the Orioles are worse. Don’t bring up an argument for the sake of generating fan passion. Find something more intelligent to discuss, DO!
By Maine Braves fan
September 21, 2007 8:23 PM | Link to this
Hey all you braves fan I would like to say that I am going to miss TBS. I live in Maine and I can only watch them on TBS. I will have to buy the package. I will miss Caray and simpson. I hope liberty media doesnt cut payroll. or you can say bye-bye to Tex. But Lets kick andruw to the curb and sign Tex
By jim carter
September 21, 2007 9:43 PM | Link to this
cox sucks, what an idiot, hudson pitches his a* off and cox leaves him in way too long, we have a great bull pen, less tyler yates, he is way too inconsistent. chock another loss up to cox and his inability to manage the game. we would have won the division easy without his dumb a*, we had to go with out another loss why chance huddy who was already at or over 100 pitches, dumb move. we need to sweep out the season he should be pulling out all stops the fact moylan did not come in amazes me, he has all summer to rest
By bill
September 22, 2007 9:45 PM | Link to this
Good cop Bad Cop. Leo was the Bad Cop, and actually was in charge. Booby Sucks.
By Mill B. Later
September 22, 2007 9:56 PM | Link to this
any other franchise would have booted Booby to the Curb in 2000, if not last year. The geriatrics in charge of the Atlanta braves have to go.
By bill
September 22, 2007 9:59 PM | Link to this
do you REALLY want to listen to UGA football on the radio without Munson? This shat really Sucks. Howard and Danzler SUCK
By David
September 22, 2007 11:19 PM | Link to this
Compare apples to apples. Roger McDowell hasn’t had anywhere near the talent to work with that Leo did. I think I could do pretty well coaching the likes of John Smoltz, Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine. You’ve got three Hall of Famers in the starting rotation. Anyone would look like a genius. Last time I checked, Leo hasn’t translated into WINS with Baltimore. Where the Braves used to have better starting pitchers in their bullpen than most had in their rotation, they just aren’t deep in talent. Give Roger like talent and then make a judgment. If not, the expectations just can’t be the same.