Braves

By Ryan

July 16, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

That is the longest paragraph I have ever seen!! Hahahaha.

Good info.

By Jared

July 16, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

It’s three games after the all-star break and the Braves’ starters still have no complete games. Pretty sad. It’s a combination of an average starting staff and Bobby Cox’s babying of pitchers.

By Wolfpack Man

July 16, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

10,000 losses won’t be a story anymore. Lots of older teams will start hitting it.

By Lee

July 16, 2007 2:55 PM | Link to this

Carroll Rogers -

Wondering the other day how long had it been since the Braves went this long into the season without a complete game. Could have done without your comment on the Florida game with Hudson. That one seems to haunt us still. Don’t know if Cox will let any of his starters go into the 9th inning for the remainder of this year or not. I figure if someone has a no-hitter going into the 9th - he will not have a choice except to do it and that may be the only way it happens.

Another world series win or two would ease the pain of the Braves franchise ever reaching the 10,000 loss column. Hopefully this year is one of those WS wins. From my tenure with the Braves from 1966 to 1980, and again in the late 80’s, I can certainly see why they have so many losses in Atlanta.

By ernesto

July 16, 2007 3:01 PM | Link to this

Buddy could have had a CG yesterday, what did he come out with 80 pitches? I think BC just doesn’t have that kind of faith in anyone but Smoltz or Hudson right now.

We all saw more than a few too many 9th inning meltdowns last year.

By HP

July 16, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

CR: According to the Wikipedia the Braves record is 9859 wins-9718 losses. You reported that braves have 9,681 losses. The season that is included is from 1871-2007. It also seems like we will have a headline next year that the Braves have won 10,000 games. I wondered which one is more accurate and why?

By Chad

July 16, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

No offense DOB but it seems like you’re reaching for blog material here. Who cares if we don’t have any CG’s? We carry lots of relievers for a reason, and it’s because we have (1) seen the trouble that forcing Smoltz into extra innings causes down the stretch and (2) have little faith in anybody past Smoltz and Hudson. If there’s even the slightest inclination that a guy is gassed, we have a good enough relief corps that there’s no need for him to stay in the game.

I’d almost argue that’s an advantage to a team, especially when compared with what it was like last year. How many times do you think Smoltz pushed himself an extra inning plus because he didn’t trust the bullpen to come in and get the job done? Now that we have—for the most part—a solid ‘pen, our starters can come out when they feel like they need to, rather than pitch on fumes to ensure the win. Let them save those fumes for September!

By Hammer'd The Braves

July 16, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

If the rest of MLB were averaging 15 CG at the break and the Braves had none, that would be “troubling”. Otherwise, it’s just a statistical oddity. The fact that starters aren’t pitching the 9th is not a problem, the fact that many of them aren’t pitching the 7th is.

By DonCoburleone

July 16, 2007 3:27 PM | Link to this

I still say the reason we have no complete games this year is because our bullpen has been solid. I mean honestly, who would you rather have out there in the 8th inning; Tim Hudson on his 91st pitch or Soriano/Yates/Moylan??? Cox is just doing what he thinks gives us our best chance of winning…

By C from Marietta

July 16, 2007 3:27 PM | Link to this

For all you stat folks. The only stat that matters is wins and loses. Must be nothing else to write about.

By Dr. Jay

July 16, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this

On one hand, I can see the various strategic advantages to pitching only 6 or 7 innings…you stay stronger for the long haul of the season, you bring in fresh arms with different arm angles, pitches and pitch speeds, etc… Plus, it elongates the career of pitchers like Maddux, Clemens, Smoltz, and Schilling. And at $10 million plus or so each year…well, I don’t blame them.

On the other hand, I remember the bad@ss pitchers of my youth - Don Drysdale, Bob Gibson, Denny McLain, Tom Seaver…hell, Sam McDowell used to pitch complete games hungover - well, I miss that mentality. I’d love to read or hear an interview with Bob Gibson on this subject, Carroll.

By AZBravoFan

July 16, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this

Seems to me it wouldn’t have been so hard to run Buddy out there in the 9th and give him until one baserunner reached before going to the pen. That way he gets a chance for a 1-2-3 inning, and if someone gets on, you avoid the situation like Hudson in Fla. by getting the fresh arm in there earlier. Don’t know how much credence there is to the thought that once you get a reliever up, you might as well put him in the game. That’s what they were saying on TV yest.

By Chop Chop

July 16, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this

HP,

The 9,681 losses for the Braves franchise is tallied from the start of the National League in 1876. The Braves franchise existed in various forms before it became one of the founding members of the NL, but official wins and losses recognized by MLB start in 1876.

By Hammer'd The Braves

July 16, 2007 3:41 PM | Link to this

Bob Gibson’s comments on the matter probably wouldn’t be printable. The classy Warren Spahn, on the same subject a few years ago, could barely keep himself from spitting. No telling the contempt that Gibson would utter.

By Mizzou Guru

July 16, 2007 3:45 PM | Link to this

I know Bobby Cox knows a lot more than I do about baseball. But I just don’t get it. Pitchers used to go 8 or 9 innnings a lot. Now players are so much bigger and stronger so they can only go 6 or 7 innings if they pitch well? They talk about the bullpen being overused. That wouldn’t be the case if starters weren’t pulled so early. I grew up watching Bob Gibson pitch. I would love to see Bobby go out and pull him after six or seven innings.

By brent a.

July 16, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

To the poster above, it’s not DOB who is reaching, it’s Carroll Rogers.

But, yes, this is a bit of a reach. It’s okay to discuss, but it really isn’t cause for concern.

We came into this season with the best bullpen we’ve had in years, and even with the loss of Mike Gonzalez, it’s still pretty solid.

I think the Florida game in April may have made Bobby nervous about trying to stretch guys too far. When you look at the rotation, though, it makes sense to save pitchers.

1) Hudson doesn’t hold up well in the heat. 2) Smolt is old 3) James gets progressively worse as he goes through the line-up a 2nd and 3rd time. 4) Davies is terrible 5) Carylyle is a reclamation project who needs to be handled carefully.

I am happy to see us taking advantage of a somewhat stable bullpen, and not wearing out our starters.

If the bullpen is worn out this time next month, you can direct a blog right at me.

By monty

July 16, 2007 3:50 PM | Link to this

I would bet that if you checked around the pitchers that have pitched complete games this season are power pitchers, mostly. Finesse pitchers tend to run out of gas quicker plus they are depending more on deception, changing speeds, hitting their corners. THe Braves don’t really have a pure power pitcher for a starter. Smolts used to be but now he relies more on finesse, even though he still throws hard. Hudson is the same way even though he can throw 91-93, he still is dependent on keeping the ball down and throwing that split. i think Bobby is playing it smart and keeping the innings off of his starters so that they won’t wilt in the fall. Too many past injuries not to baby your staff.

By Dr. Jay

July 16, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this

LOL…I’m sure you’re right Hammer’d.

By TheSouthernJackAss

July 16, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

Refer to the end of the previous blog for the final, last words of TheSouthernJackAss…

By Lee

July 16, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this

Bob Gibson left the game when he wanted to, not when the pitching coach decided it was time for him to go. That is one big difference alone.

By Efrim

July 16, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this

If we aren’t going to add to the starting pitching corps, then lets add another reliever. Dotel, Weathers, Wheeler, Qualls, Otsuka, Gagne, Greinke, Lidge, and Linebrink are what seems to be available. Any of these relievers would help the Braves. Yates, Moylan and Soriano have thrown too many innings. Lets lighten their load by acquiring a guy like Dotel or Otsuka. Dotel shouldn’t cost too much. Maybe Double-A pitcher Jose Ascanio.

By Shaun

July 16, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

I wouldn’t be too concerned about the lack of a complete game. Seems to be no correlation between complete games and good pitching/runs allowed.

Here’s an interesting little piece I found on complete games:

http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?showComments=true&entry=3354162006

Sportswriter Joe Sheehan introduces a column on pitching in modern baseball this way:

“You can’t open a newspaper, a magazine or a browser without reading a complaint about starting pitchers. Complete games are at a historic low, the quality-start statistic has purists up in arms and the idea of pitch counts sends many people into convulsions.”

I’ve wondered about the tyranny of pitch counts and the lack of complete games myself - but Sheehan explains that pitching isn’t the same as it used to be:

“Consider the change that has occurred since the start of Blyleven’s career. In 1970, when he made his debut with the Minnesota Twins, the American League’s second basemen had a slugging percentage of .332; the catchers .391; the shortstops .347. The league averages at those spots last year were .395, .417 and .412.”

As much as I hate the designated hitter rule, it’s more than that, and the problem exists in the National League as well. The reality is, there are simply more good hitters out there, and the lower mound (dating from 1969) has made it even more difficult. I don’t buy the argument that there are more teams, so good pitching is harder to come by - if that were true, the league would also be full of light hitting shortstops. I think Sheehan has it pegged.

By josh

July 16, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

Monty,

If anything I’d say its the finesse pitchers who should have the complete game. Because when they’re on, they can get a guy out in a few pitches, instead of needing the 3 or more for a strikeout.

If that above doesn’t make any sense, well Maddux and Glavine in their prime had many complete games and were never known as power pitchers.

Actually, I’ll go a step further and say that it’s probably the pitchers with at least 4 solid pitches that can complete games. Have to keep those hitters guessing (fastball, changeup only works for so long with chuck james).

By Shaun

July 16, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

I think there are less complete games for a variety of reasons other than pitchers are sissies or whatever some people want to believe:

1. Offense is better, especially at the traditionally weak-hitting positions (as pointed out in my last post).

2. Rules are tougher on pitchers (raising of the mound, hitter’s backgrounds are more prevalent, etc.)

3. Teams have learned that pitchers, especially young pitchers, should be watched more closely (pitch counts) than before to protect themselves from injury.

By Hammer'd The Braves

July 16, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

Part of it is simple economics. If you’re going to overuse an arm, better a $3 million reliever than a $10 million dollar starter. Which is a fine philosophy right up until the time the bullpen is throwing with all the strength of beer-league softball pitchers and the starters think the 8th inning is when the showers get hot water.

By Bob, Journalist

July 16, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

Most Honorable Southern,

As you may recall, I experienced computer security problems for a protracted period of time because of the interface between my web server and my operating system.

During that time, I became acquainted over the Internet with a group Canadian hackers who were devoting their time and energies to identifying individuals who create and initiate virus and Trojan Horse activity with malicious intent.

We had serious conversations regarding Identity Theft as well as the common problems with those who would disrupt normal forum activity and engage in boorish behavior … my words, not theirs. We also discussed the problems that chronically plague the Blog and I was told our problems are certainly not unique.

They expressed surprise that the AJC was not better technically equipped or more actively involved in addressing the problems; based on my comments. As an aside, they heavily influenced my posture relative to these issues when I contacted the AJC.

I don’t know how it works but it’s my understanding that, using BPPEs of their own design, they are able to monitor forum activity and, without violating regulations or decoding the encoded submissions, associate the IP Addresses and machine ids with the submissions, I assume by cross referencing the time/date stamps of the submissions and examination of the “C” Class IP so as to help identify those machines on a LAN.

They indicated that software offering similiar capabilities are readily available in the marketplace.

It was they who reminded me that machine ID is more relevant than IP address since most user addresses are dynamic rather than static … something to which I had not given thought since I was then hosting sites and using static addresses.

We can rest assured that our activity is being monitored, 7-24-365 … most, if not all sites are … out of casual interest, Internet security functions and search engine activity … and for a host of other other good and evil purposes.

There is no question that the technology is there and the dots can be connected by any who are technically equipped and so inclined … methinks we could do that or have it done.

At the very minimum, one could tie the posts to the machine or IP “C” Class and allow those abusing the Blog to be identified, regardless of mask changes.

Thus, if other available methods fail to yield the desired results, there is no question that it can be done … that one can doesn’t mean that one should … it’s my understanding that there are no significant legal constraints or ethical issues since only header information would be captured, so it should be feasible … however, my guess is that it would be opposed by evil doers and the self righteous … but the technology is there and people are using it.

When I worked with the NSA crowd, it wasn’t our practice to tell others what we were doing or how we were doing it … folks were just told that we were counterfeiting East German Script and they believed it … we knew they believed because so knowing was an important part of our job.

By Carolina Lady

July 16, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

I don’t care if they ever have another CG as long as they finish with more Ws than anybody. :-)

By Shaun

July 16, 2007 4:28 PM | Link to this

Last thing, then I’ll be quiet until someone replies to me:

You’ll hear people complain because starters don’t go as long as they used to and teams keep pitch counts, etc.

If starters were wimpier or money has made them prime donas or whatever, why have athletes in every sport across the board gotten faster, stronger and bigger?

And why would a pitcher want to come out of games if he could make more money with more wins, more innings, etc.?

All this talk about Gibson and Spahn, “back in my day” stuff is a little ridiculous.

By Mark

July 16, 2007 4:29 PM | Link to this

Why not something positive for today’s blog? Seems to me things are going pretty well right now and we have had plenty of other days this year to complain about things that are going wrong.

By bonitis

July 16, 2007 4:32 PM | Link to this

complete games are irrelevant and, often, harmful. research has shown that pitch counts are very closely tied to pitcher fatigue and injury. after a certain point, the risk of continuing to pitch becomes immense. its been shown that a starter would be healthier and more productive if he started every fourth game but didnt overexert himself into the late innings.

its not 1914 (great year, btw); every start isnt a complete game, inside the park home runs arent commonplace, but it really doesnt matter.

By MGL

July 16, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

A total of 52 pitchers have a combined total of 70 CG. The highest number is 3. Teams have played approx 91 games on the average for about 2730 games. That is a CG 2.6% of the time. I don’t see this as being particularly significant.

By Double Deuce

July 16, 2007 4:37 PM | Link to this

I think the lack of a complete game is more a reflection of today’s baseball philosophy than a lack of capable arms. Bobby has his bullpen set up with Yates in the 7th, Soriano the 8th, and Wickman the closer, and then a variation when Moylan pitches.

It’s evident to me that Yates was burned on the last road trip and it may take a couple of more weeks to recover. The philosophy of 6 innings for your starters works fine, but when you have those games where you only get two or three innings from your starter the bullpen gets overworked.

That’s why it is important for Bobby to use the entire bullpen, including Devine and Paronto, every chance he gets because there will be times late in the year when you’ll be forced to pitch them in pressure situations and you want them ready, especially Devine. If you’re not going to use him he’s better off in Richmond getting work.

By DAP

July 16, 2007 4:37 PM | Link to this

i think cox just took the new bullpen thing seriously. he got handed a terrific bullpen, and decided to use them. there were a couple of times this season where i thought our guy could have kept going, but bobby took them out. thats not necesarily a bad thing, except now it looks like the bullpen is a little over used.

i think buddy should have gone the distance yesterday.

By Chop Chop

July 16, 2007 4:54 PM | Link to this

The bullpen isn’t going to get much relief if James and Davies can’t keep their pitch counts down. Since Smoltz is only averaging a little over 6 innings a start (yeah, he left a couple of them early because of injury, but it still counts) and Carlyle is averaging about 5.5 innings per start, the only starter that the Braves have been able to count on to go deeper into games is Hudson. If none of this changes, guys like Paronto and Moylan get exposed and Yates and Soriano (both of whom have had injury trouble in the past) are more likely to run into arm issues. We all know Wickman can’t be trusted on the road, so the “teeth-gnashing potential” (TGP) for Braves fans is readily apparent.

That being said, I can’t really see Jose Contreras coming to Atlanta. After all, he’s averaging less than 6 innings a start for Ozzie Guillen, a guy who certainly would leave him out there if he thought Contreras could be trusted. Besides, even if the Braves would only have to give up a “B-minus” prospect for him, they’d still have to pay him $10 million each of the next two years. I can’t see that happening, especially when Contreras probably is closer to Age 40 than the 35 he’s listed at.

By David O'Brien

July 16, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this

This is Carroll’s blog today, so I’m not going to say much. Just wanted to make one thing perfectly clear, so COACH and others can stop the incessant debate:

Scott Thorman is out of minor-league options. Repeat, he’s out. Has no more. Done. Can’t be sent to the minors without first clearing waivers.

One more time: He has EXHAUSTED HIS OPTIONS.

Coach, you can continue to argue he has options if you’d like, but he doesn’t. Period. You’re simply wrong on this subject.

And if he did have an option, believe this: He’d be sent down weeks ago. No question. Only reason he’s still here is he has no options remaining.

There. Hopefully that ends that argument.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

July 16, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this

I once read that a long time pitching coach has a theory that ever pitcher is alloted X number of pitches before his arm gives out. The problem was no one ever knew what that number was.

Perhaps in today’s world of high priced arms and investment in players the thought is to save arms longer and not use them up just because you can.

When you have 13 to 14 pitchers on a staff, you better use them. It was not that long ago that for a team to carry 11 pitchers was radical.

It is just another way the sport has evolved.

Shaun Yes, to every rule is an exception I would suppose. Just more often than not it has been my personal observation that young teams fold under pressure faster and tend to have longer losing streaks. This is not an absolute, just an observation.

By Bob, Journalist

July 16, 2007 5:05 PM | Link to this

Shaun, how is more ridiculous it talk about about Gibson and Spahn and things you know and admire than to posit about inane, fanciful trades about which you know nothing or inappropriately use statistics to make or defend inconsequential points?

How are any of these more ridiculous than using bawdy rhetoric or ineffective use of the vulgar so as to compete for attention, or to be confrontational or demeaning in one’s engagements for reasons of malicious intent?

By SNIPER-69

July 16, 2007 5:06 PM | Link to this

Here’s how the rest of the season is going to go. The Mets will get Pedro back and to the dismay of the Brave fans he will make an impact and bring a lift to the team. The rotation will get into a groove and will become the best in the NL down the strech. I could see Shawn Green involved in a trade for an established arm to be added to the bullpen. With the addition/emergence of Milledge Green will be expendable. The Braves may make a trade in an effort to catch the Mets but will finish the season between 7-9 games back and out of the wild card too, losing out to a western division team. They have too many holes to fill.

By Lew

July 16, 2007 5:11 PM | Link to this

I can’t argue with Shaun on this one. Another factor could also be that when Gibby was going great guns, pitchers were making $45,000 a year on one year contracts. There was no reason to care if you protected your pitcher with a 6 year $120 million contract. There were no such things. If you lost a pitcher due to a “sore arm”, you put him in the bullpen and brought in another pitcher with a sub 3.0 ERA. That’s something they don’t have today-sub 3.0 ERA’s. Times have changed-for better or worse? Who knows? It’s a moot point. Last year there were fewer than a dozen pitchers in MLB with significant IP and ERA’s under 4.00. That’s the way things are. YOu have to work with that set of facts. Get another reliever. It will be cheaper and will probably help more. Hang on to Boyer and Devine. We may very well need them. Why worry about complete games? It’s easier to stockpile relievers. Where’s Sturtz when we need him?

By TexasBrave

July 16, 2007 5:14 PM | Link to this

I think the main point is to get Wins. Not only during the regular season but also during the post season. You don’t want your starters gased come the end of Sept. (possible division/wild card race) or October. Managers must fine a balance between keeping their starters fresh without taxing the bullpen. It would be great if every starter were honest with himself and Bobby about how he is feeling and if he feels strong enough to continue. We all know Smoltz lets Bobby know when he is ready to come out but how about the others? Hudson is a vet yet I think he is still trying to prove himself worthy because of the last couple of years. James, Buddy and Davies may not know when it is time to call it a game. So Bobby has to use pitching counts, innings pitched and probably some input from the catcher to determine when to take them out.

I personally would like to see our starters go at least 7 innings provided they haven’t throw too many pitches. I agree with Double Deuce that we need to spread the love to everybody in the bullpen because we have already seen what will happen if we only use four out of the seven or eight we carry. If we have a four run or more lead why not use Devine, Paronto, Oscar (I bet he would love to get into a game we were winning).

Again I think the main point is to find a happy medium. I know there are times when our starters haven’t made it out of the early innings and that is going to tax the bullpen. However, there have been times when we have had a good lead and sure enough here comes Yates, Sorianto and Wickman. No wonder these guys are tired.

By Lew

July 16, 2007 5:14 PM | Link to this

Drooling Sniper-Let me know how things work out with Pedro’s new 84 MPH fastball. He was only throwing 89 BEFORE the surgery.

By rupert

July 16, 2007 5:23 PM | Link to this

its time for salty to start at first regularly, and spell mac in day games or vs. lefties once a week or so…

By DrHoo

July 16, 2007 5:24 PM | Link to this

So why aren’t we hearing more on Dontrelle? Isn’t this the perfect match for Atlanta? Charismatic, young, African-American, left-handed pitcher? Signed through the end of 2008, so you have plenty of opportunity to get a long term deal and pair him with Hudson for long term stability in the starting staff. I know he has had some bad starts lately, but if there are no arm troubles, isn’t that to the Braves’ advantage? Buy low and sell high? Can anyone here really argue that Snell is going to be a better pitcher the next 5-7 years than Dontrelle? If we are talking about Salty for Snell, wouldn’t Florida take Salty for Dontrelle?

By SNIPER-69

July 16, 2007 5:29 PM | Link to this

How old are you Lew?? Drooling?? I never made any personal attacks on anyone here. Just threw my point of view out there. Don’t take it personal pal.

By Chris

July 16, 2007 5:32 PM | Link to this

Actually if I recall correctly this was actually Buddy’s second 8-inning performance in a row. I think he gave up three runs and pitched 8 innings last start.

As for the CG thing. I think ever since that night Bobby sent Hudson out there for the ninth and the Braves lost he has just been real scared to do it anymore. Not worth losing when you can bring another fresh pitcher in.

By daniel

July 16, 2007 5:34 PM | Link to this

In my opinion, another reason for the reduced number of CG’s is the existence of the save stat and the incentive laden contracts that are prevalent in MLB these days. Managers (especially Cox) have loyalty to their guys, and when closers pile on saves or set-up men get holds, it helps them out through contract incentives and at arbitration time (for younger pitchers). So, we’ll continue to see these relievers come in to get holds and saves when the games are close. If its a blowout, why leave your starter out there to possibly get hurt if he’s in line for the win and has a big lead? Let someone who needs some work in the pen pitch those innings that don’t mean much.

By Max Sizemore

July 16, 2007 5:37 PM | Link to this

Carroll, Carlyle has pitching eight innings in each of his last TWO starts, not just the last one. He also went 8 innings against San Diego on the July 6. Secondly, DOB, one question: JUST WHO THE HELL WOULD WANT THORMAN enough to claim him off waivers?? Come on, seriously now. He is a disaster. You know it. Everybody knows it.

By Lew

July 16, 2007 5:46 PM | Link to this

Sniper-I didn’t take it personally. You’re just a victim of previous Mets’ trolls visiting our space. If you’re really a decent guy, I apologize. That hasn’t been the case with most Mets’ fans we’ve had the unfortunate experience to encounter- check out the last blog and refer to NoChopZone-less affectionately known as NoBrainZone.. As a matter of fact, the Drooling part was instituted by a Mets’ fan. Maybe you shouldn’t take it personally, either. We just hate the Mets. It is a Braves’ blog. Get over it.

By Bob, Journalist

July 16, 2007 5:46 PM | Link to this

Complete games are certainly less important than they were when relievers were more “second line” than they are now but methinks that complete cames, and the opportunity to so attempt, are still important to the mental health of the staff and certainly a point of pride and accomplishment, especially to certain pitchers. The drive to so do is part of what defines the pitcher and is what distinguishes some pitchers from others.

I personally like to see them given the chance when conditions suggests it is prudent or reasonable to so do … and I would think that certain pitchers relish the opportunity … my opine and my preference.

Buddy has pitched into the eighth three times, methinks … I would have liked to have seen him given the opportunity to finish last night’s game, maybe the previous 8 inning job as well. I don’t know the stats but he’s done well in the late innings; it’s the first 3 that seem to give him trouble, especially the first.

By tyyosh

July 16, 2007 5:54 PM | Link to this

Regarding the fake blogging ID problem, the AJC could make it a lot harder to do this by tying blog-specific identities to the login email/password record that each of us has and then disallowing a post that uses a blogging name if it is already associated to someone else’s ID. Not perfect, but easier than tracking down IP addresses and other reactive measures.

Regarding the pitching issue, I recall an AJC article in the early 90’s (when a young Steve Avery was throwing bullets) where someone had figured out that most of the greats with really long careers averaged under 200 innings/season until after age 25 (Carlton, others were examples IIRC), and that those who pitched more than that often developed serious arm trouble. I recall thinking, “Wow, that’s bad, but maybe it won’t happen to Avery”.

By bullet36

July 16, 2007 5:58 PM | Link to this

Rupert I couldn’t agree more. Why can’t Bobby Cox see this?? All this talk about trading for Mark Texiera. We already have a switch-hitting 1st baseman with power. He just doesn’t get to play! Put Salty in, let him get some consistent at-bats and watch him bring home that Rookie of the Year award.

By Dr. Jay

July 16, 2007 5:59 PM | Link to this

Apparently, some of us have more appreciation for the complete game than others. I’ve written about the old school pitchers because they accomplished the feat more often. And that’s nothing to sneeze at… Furthermore, there are serious advantages to pitching a CG, be it 1968, or 2007. First, you give everyone in the bullpen some rest. 24 hours can make a huge difference, especially come August and September. Starters aren’t the only ones who need a break. Secondly, a CG means you’ve survived perhaps four or five circuits through the opposing batting order. Major league hitters aren’t easy to fool. They’ve got to be licking their chops near the end of a game. They’ve seen your pitches. Maybe they’ve even figured out your sign rhythm. Yet, you still win. That’s an accomplishment, my friends. Don’t diminish the skill and endurance of something like that.

I’m for any tactic which yields a Braves win…but it would send a message to the rest of the league if somebody in our rotation pulled one off.

By TexasBrave

July 16, 2007 6:02 PM | Link to this

Thorman just needs more work and someone to show him he doesn’t need that big swing to hit the ball well. He was not as ready as BC and JS had hoped he was. Unfortunately we can’t send him down for that work without him having to clear waivers.

My question DOB or Carroll, is if another team claims Thorman off waivers do they have to keep him on the major league team or can they put him in their farm system to get work.

The reason I ask is that if the team has to keep him in the majors, I can’t see many teams taking a chance on him right now. However, if they are allowed to place him in the minors then, yes I would imagine that a great number of teams would take a chance on him.

By Todd A

July 16, 2007 6:03 PM | Link to this

“The Braves. That’s right, the Boston, Milwaukee and Atlanta Braves have lost 9,681 games.”

I seriously doubt our fan base will give a standing ovation once we hit that milestone.

By Lee

July 16, 2007 6:08 PM | Link to this

Who cares how many complete games the Braves pitching staff has. Just as long as we keep winning it really doesn’t matter. By the way, ask any Boston fan complete games and remind them about Pedro.

By Lew

July 16, 2007 6:16 PM | Link to this

Todd A-You’re probably right. However, its still over 300 losses until we hit that point (in all likelihood at least four more years)-And we ARE the oldest franchise in MLB.

By TennesseePaul

July 16, 2007 6:16 PM | Link to this

Carroll: Interesting blog. I hadn’t noticed the lack of CG in the majors. I knew the Bravos were failling short. I recall that game in Florida with Hudson and Wicky. Ugliness in that 9th inning. Ugliness.
Chuck James will probably get a CG this year, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see Kyle pull it off first. He’s hit or miss, but when he’s on, he can put a gem together. It’s going to depend on Bobby though. He’ll have to stop pulling guys after 90 pitches for a CG to happen. We don’t have Maddux anymore and he’s the only pitcher I know of that could get a CG after 80 pitches.

The 10K mark is impressive. But saying the Braves are next doesn’t quite bum me out like it would if I were a Philly fan with the Phillies were on the verge.
The Braves have been around scince 1871 according to the MLB.com page.
According to Dennis Purdy the team goes back to 1867.
Baseball-Reference only counts the NL years, so the team goes back to 1876.
In all of those different views, the Braves are the oldest baseball franchise. And with that, it would stand to reason they’d have more games played and therefore a high number of losses.
While losing 9,699 times, the Braves have also won 9,837 times prior to this season. The Braves should cross the 10K mark soon. But it will more than likely be the 10K win mark before the 10K loss mark. And, they should pass that 10K win mark next season. This will make them the 3rd franchise in history with 10,000 Wins. The Cubs passed the mark 6 wins ago. The Giants lead the pack with 10,151 wins. The Dodgers are neck-n-neck with the Braves. But I’d bet the Braves will get there before the Dodgers. And, in case you’re interested, the Yankees have 9,334 prior to this season.

By Paladin

July 16, 2007 6:20 PM | Link to this

I put this on the other blog, but I put it on here in “fear” that the “stinky” one will post in my name.

Goodbye, Good luck and Goodnight. Paladin has staggered out of the bldg. C’y’all in the am.

By Bob, Journalist

July 16, 2007 6:25 PM | Link to this

Max Sizemore, Scott is currently performing at a level below that which we find acceptable but, that is not to say that he is without potential or that chances are good that he would clear waivers … were the Braves comfortable with their estimated probability of so losing him, it would have already been done.

Even so, they may well yet find him to be expendable … they could have Guido break both his arms and place him on the 60 day DL … or sign him to a large contract, flawed so it can later be broken, but only by the Braves … and put him on waivers.

The bottom line is that the issue isn’t going away until it’s addressed.

The Braves’ knew Scott’s option status before giving him first base to have and maybe to hold … they knew too, the level of the need for an intense special hitting and/or fielding training regimen … it seems rather obvious that they felt there was no such need, or at least there was no such consensus.

What, if anything, is currently being done to address any change in perception on their part? Ask Lamont Cranston.

By TennesseePaul

July 16, 2007 6:28 PM | Link to this

Carroll: I just noticed your tally is the NL portion of the Braves Franchise history. Why is it that the first 5 years of the franchise history are excluded? On the official Braves.com site, they are included. I’d think if the team itself lays claim to them on the official MLB.com page, that they should be included. Is it because 9,681 looks better than 9,741? I can tell you, for added eye-popping effect, the 9,741 is the better choice. Probably sell a few more papers that way, or get a few more clicks on the web link. But then you have to recognize the 9,887 wins.
I suppose we can just re-write history for the sake of a good story though. The Braves didn’t really play those games.
For reference, here’s the link to the Commissioner approved team history overview page.

By Gustopher

July 16, 2007 6:29 PM | Link to this

Great job on the blog CR and a great heads up on the Bravos being number two in losses

By Carolina Lady

July 16, 2007 6:32 PM | Link to this

I stand to be corrected, but if I understood DOB some time back, if the person whose ID is misused will WRITE an email to AJC, the person who took the ID will be banned.

The email address I used was to a Ms Donosky at ldonosky@ajc.com ldonosky@ajc.com.

Copy/paste the offending posts with time and date to the email. BE NICE! You want these folks to take their time to help you!!

Write every time it happens. Sometimes it takes a little while but patience is a virtue, is it not? And it was proved in the past that participation by all of those affected is effective.

I hope DOB or Carroll will correct me if I have any of this wrong. (It isn’t their job to chase down this stuff.)

By Gil in Mechanicsville

July 16, 2007 6:34 PM | Link to this

Baseball is a funny game. It is the only sport that the likelihood of failure is greater than the likelihood of success. If a batter fails only 7 out of 10 times he makes large sums of money and is adored by many. If he fails 7.5 times out of 10 then not so much…..

The manager’s job is to put players in the position to suck less than the next guy. :-))) That said it is a fine line between failure and success and it is all relative.

And jimmy smith has not yet commented on the turkeys in Druid Hills. Oh the humanity…..

By Bob, Journalist

July 16, 2007 6:40 PM | Link to this

Gil, what’s going on in Druid Hills?

By Gil in Mechanicsville

July 16, 2007 6:45 PM | Link to this

And now a story of Vermont banning nudity…. Oh Lew, we told you it was a bad idea to shed those loin cloths….

Does this mean the end of procreation in the Northeast? My question is why on earth would anyone want to go naked in Vermont? Is that where the term freezing your A— off come from?

Inquiring minds want to know…. or not.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

July 16, 2007 6:54 PM | Link to this

Bob,J It is on the front page of the AJC home page. Actually a cute story, I know Grinch* does not live near there.

Okay folks, I am going to take a time out and watch the game. Later…..

By SNIPER-69

July 16, 2007 6:54 PM | Link to this

Other than the playoffs(If your team makes it in of course), this is the best time of the season. All the rumors flying around. Is your team a seller or a buyer……It’s great. The Mets are definitly buyers who will upgrade their bullpen and maybe land a big bat…….Lets see.

By Bob, Journalist

July 16, 2007 6:58 PM | Link to this

My Lady stands to be corrected? Personally, after much practice, I find it usually best to sit down!

You’re spot on as always …. Lea Donosky seems to be a nice, concerned lady and I too assume that it is she to which such emails should be directed.

By GT

July 16, 2007 6:58 PM | Link to this

The Braves are a “pitching rich” organization? Since when? Maybe the Bizarro Braves but not the Atlanta Braves. Last I checked, these Braves rank 12th in ERA this season out of 30 MLB teams. How exactly does this ranking exemplify the idea of dominant pitching? Who was the last starter with even flashes of dominance to come out of the Braves farm system and spend any significant amount of time in ATL? Kevin Millwood? -Don’t say Chuck James; that would more than prove my point. Claiming Chuck James is dominant is like claiming there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

The Braves aren’t a pitching rich organization. It stopped being the 1990s seven years ago.

By KC

July 16, 2007 7:01 PM | Link to this

Mets are playing the Padres… so if we win this series against the Reds, we may have a chance to grab the lead (or a tie) for either the Wild Card or the division by the time Thursday morning rolls around.

By DonCoburleone

July 16, 2007 7:15 PM | Link to this

Oh god, I hope Cox doesn’t wait until the 3rd inning to pull Davies this time… GET VILLAREAL IN NOW!!!

By Calvin

July 16, 2007 7:15 PM | Link to this

Davies is just too inconsistent to be a Major League pitcher. I heard Joe say that if Reyes pitches well tomorrow, Davies might be on his way to AAA.

By sri

July 16, 2007 7:15 PM | Link to this

U’oh bad Kyle showed up today…

By Steve from OH

July 16, 2007 7:15 PM | Link to this

Uh oh…

Wonder if JS is on the phone yet?

By A-ville Ranger

July 16, 2007 7:17 PM | Link to this

I think the fact that three of the five teams without a complete game are in last place is telling.I posted back in the spring that the two best starters in the division last season were 1—Smoltz 2—Glavine. I reasoned that the most important stat for starters today is loqi lots of quality innings(my goofball term).In todays game starters who can give you 220 innings with a good era are rare and of great value.Is it time to go to a 28 man roster ? would it provide a better product in these times of specialty substitution? I think it’s worth considering.

By Todd A

July 16, 2007 7:17 PM | Link to this

“Claiming Chuck James is dominant is like claiming there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.”

So,you’re saying you don’t think the WMD’s were moved to Syria and Iran?Ha.

I agree on the pitching rich Braves commentary.We haven’t produced a legitimate # 1 pitcher since Tom Glavine,despite all those years emphasizing pitching in the draft.I would say Steve Avery,but his career deteriorated so quickly,it’s hard to call him an ace starter.Schmidt and Wainwright may have been the best of the bunch the last 15 years,and they were both traded.

By Tomahawkin' Again

July 16, 2007 7:18 PM | Link to this

The evil Kyle has shown up tonight. Paging a Mr. Morris, Matt Morris are you available?

By Todd A

July 16, 2007 7:19 PM | Link to this

Time for a “Ron Gant” type of demotion for Kyle Davies.

By Blake

July 16, 2007 7:20 PM | Link to this

What a joke. I hope that is the end for Davies

By All Spin Zone

July 16, 2007 7:20 PM | Link to this

Davies…..geez! What a freakin’ head case!

Bobby is using his head tonight. He usually lets this situation in the first get waaaaay out of hand before he makes a move. Oscar may give up some runs, but good gracious, Davies should be running out of chances!

By Salty

July 16, 2007 7:20 PM | Link to this

Kyle, Kyle, Kyle…what ever are we to do with you, son? I feel bad for the kid; maybe he and Oscar should switch roles, especially (if and) when Ledezma gets back.

By sri

July 16, 2007 7:21 PM | Link to this

I hope this doesnt prompt the Braves to make a panic trade.. JS please show restraint…

By A-ville Ranger

July 16, 2007 7:22 PM | Link to this

Tough Davies—fragile Davies who is this guy ? He looked ready to hide somewhere and cry tonight.Huge catch by Andruw.

By DonCoburleone

July 16, 2007 7:23 PM | Link to this

Good, is that finally it now? Can we please please please give up the Kyle Davies experiment? Everybody chant with me: WE WANT JO-JO, WE WANT JO-JO, WE WANT JO-JO!!!

By J-LO

July 16, 2007 7:24 PM | Link to this

ITS SIMPLE….DAVIES SUCKS!!!!!

By parks

July 16, 2007 7:24 PM | Link to this

WOW great pitching by Oscar

By Bob, Journalist

July 16, 2007 7:25 PM | Link to this

Now, let’s win it!

By bravesfan

July 16, 2007 7:25 PM | Link to this

GOOD JOB OSCAR!!!!!!!!!!!

By Steve from OH

July 16, 2007 7:25 PM | Link to this

Wow. Awesome job by Villarreal…he’s singlehandedly kept us in the game.

By A-ville Ranger

July 16, 2007 7:26 PM | Link to this

Villareal won’t get a save,but he saved their butts big time.

By Chuck in NC

July 16, 2007 7:27 PM | Link to this

Wow! Great save by Oscar.

But Kyle is way too inconsistent. He’s clearly a “AAAA” pitcher at this point.

By All Spin Zone

July 16, 2007 7:28 PM | Link to this

Big Save by Villareal!

Now the offense can feel like they dodged a bullet and have the confidence to jump on this guy. Hard to do that if you’re down by 5 or 6 after one!

By Chuck in NC

July 16, 2007 7:29 PM | Link to this

Looks like that streak without a complete game will continue for at least one more night.

By Glass Half Full (GHF)

July 16, 2007 7:30 PM | Link to this

I’d prefer Kevin Millar to Franco, though he’d be more expensive. Millar has a 2008 option if he reaches 475 plate appearances. Let’s say Thorman is traded, then Millar and Salty can platoon at 1st while Pena spells McCann behind the plate.

By Lucas...

July 16, 2007 7:31 PM | Link to this

It really is mind blowing how good Davies can look one start then how aweful he can look the next. When I watch Davies pitch when he is like he was tonight, it is like watching the first three episodes of American Idol when the really skinny country boy goes on television and tries to sing a Marvin Gaye song… It’s just embarrassing.

By DAP

July 16, 2007 7:33 PM | Link to this

bobby did exactly the right thing taking davies out, and im surprised he did it. i was listening to it on the radio in my car and told my radio “radio, if he walks dunn, bobby needs to take davies out.” and he did it! im so glad he did, and way to go villareal for getting out of that! he may finally ear his spot in the rotation tonight.

By A-ville Ranger

July 16, 2007 7:34 PM | Link to this

Escobar plays like a hungry fighter.

By flange1

July 16, 2007 7:36 PM | Link to this

I’ve got to think this was Davies last chance. I think the pitching move after Reyes start will be Davies to Richmond, Villareal to the rotation, Reyes in the bullpen as a 1 inning lefty.

Thoughts?

By Glass Half Full (GHF)

July 16, 2007 7:39 PM | Link to this

I know many are down on Matt Morris, but I think he’d help this team. Yeah, yeah he pitches to contact, but the Braves are a good defensive team. He’s pretty consistent unlike Davies and I don’t think we’d have to give up Salty or Escobar to get him. The Giants are old in the field.

By DonCoburleone

July 16, 2007 7:39 PM | Link to this

What a job by Villareal, awesome. This game could easily be over right now (like 6-0). And please, Smoltz come back and Reyes pitch well tomorrow so we don’t have to see Davies in the majors again this year…

By summerteeth

July 16, 2007 7:43 PM | Link to this

Bobby just doesn’t pull people in the 1st inning without even giving up an out…expect Kyle to get demoted or shipped off somewhere.

By Brick Tamland

July 16, 2007 7:44 PM | Link to this

well maybe the mets will blow one too.

By DonCoburleone

July 16, 2007 7:44 PM | Link to this

Please disregard my last comment. I advocate it be stricken from the record…

By J-LO

July 16, 2007 7:45 PM | Link to this

YEAH…LET’S SWITCH DAVIES AND VILLARREAL

BOTH OF THESE GUYS ARE LOSERS!

By Wayne in Utah

July 16, 2007 7:46 PM | Link to this

What a disappointment Davies is turning out to be! Hot/Cold.

Also, prefer either Conine or Millar type to a return of Franco. Why would Mets cut him loose, knowing of his Braves connnection, if he had ANYTHING left? Let’s not try to reheat that week old soup!

If JoJo doesn’t show us something tomorrow, look for a deal by the weekend. Let’s hope that Smoltzie comes back strong on Wednesday.

Whasssupp with Willie???

By Josh C

July 16, 2007 7:48 PM | Link to this

Wonder where the “stand pat” and “our starting pitching will be ok” crowd is tonight? How about a swap of first-rounders: Salty for Matt Garza…

By chrisklob

July 16, 2007 7:49 PM | Link to this

Sports South is not working where I live. I was pretty ticked off about it until I got back on here and read some of the comments about Davies performance. Perhaps it’s a blessing in disguise.

So does Davies wind up back in Richmond or does he get the McBride treatment? What do y’all think?

By JasonInMaine

July 16, 2007 7:49 PM | Link to this

This team simply can’t make the playoffs as long Davies is anywhere near the rotation.

By A-ville Ranger

July 16, 2007 7:49 PM | Link to this

Flange1 I think Villareal could start. However to steal a line from Douglas Macarthur,if he fills a starters shoes who will fill his ? Ouch baby..I turned to hardball for five minites and the wheels came off.

By Glass Half Full (GHF)

July 16, 2007 7:50 PM | Link to this

The thing about Davies is this…if he were on a perenially bad team and no one really expected him to be good, I think he would develop into a solid #2 or #3 MLB pitcher. In Atlanta, however, we expect every pitcher to be John Smoltz and that ain’t gonna happen. Not that I’m defending Davies or anything.

By Wayne in Utah

July 16, 2007 7:53 PM | Link to this

DonC I have never been to high on Villarreal myself. He has done well at times, but last year, he allowed a LOT of inherited runners to score.

Personally, I think if Jo Jo doesn’t come through tomorrow, we might be looking at someone like Lohse or Morris coming over.

I sure hope Bobby gives Devine a shot tonight. We need somebody to rely on when guys like Yates are having a bad stretch.

By Ron Roberts

July 16, 2007 7:54 PM | Link to this

Whew. Atrocious. It has to just drive Cox and McDowell nuts to see Kyle Davies do what he did to the Padres shortly before the All-Star break, then come out and lay a stinker like this against the woeful Cincinnati Reds.

Hey, give up runs to the Reds in Cincinatti? That’d be one thing. But at Turner Field? Dammit, Kyle; what’s going on in that thick sull of yours, dude?

sigh

Contreras, Vasquez, or Jason Jennings?

By bamabrave

July 16, 2007 7:55 PM | Link to this

Villareal is better off in the pen. Davies needs a change of scenery via demotion or trade. I wouldn’t count on Reyes right now. A trade for Gorzelany, Morris or Snell would take care of the situation. Might not hurt to find a first baseman. I don’t trust a rookie at first during a pennant chace. How about Jeff Conine?

By bfan54

July 16, 2007 7:56 PM | Link to this

HP - not sure if anyone else has answered your question, but here’s the answer. The baseball establishment considers that the National Association (the predecessor of the National Leaguse) which was in existence from 1871-1875 does NOT qualify as a “major league”. I won’t go into the valid reasons why this is so -only to say that there is a consistent rationale). This being so, if you include the 1871-1875 years, the Braves obviously have more wins (and losses). 1876 is, however, generally considered the “year one” of
baseball statistics.

I should add that the standards used to exclude the old National Association from consideration as a “major league”. which existed from 1871-1875, seem to have been ignored by the general acceptance of the 1914-1915 Federal League, and the 1884 Union Association, and the 1890 Player’s League as “major league’s”. One of these short-lived leagues (the Federal League, I believe) clearly should not qualify as a “major league”, while the other 2 can claim some ‘bona fides’.

By Wayne in Utah

July 16, 2007 7:57 PM | Link to this

It is what it is folks. One game.

By Tomahawkin' Again

July 16, 2007 7:57 PM | Link to this

Hmm, can someone loan Junior a 1st baseman glove? He would look real good right now w/the tomahawk across his chest.

By Serbok

July 16, 2007 8:01 PM | Link to this

PULL Villareal NOW!!!!

By journalist jimmy smith

July 16, 2007 8:03 PM | Link to this

as the sixth run crosses the plate, the camera turns to bobby picking bobby’s nose! oh, the humanity!

here’s hoping bobby finds an answer in there.

By GOD

July 16, 2007 8:03 PM | Link to this

I just turned the TV on. WTF? Will someone PLEASE sit Kyle down and tell him he needs to be hanging sheetrock? I don’t normally do this, but I’m gonna write a letter to JS. I can stand someone who sucks in there pitching, but it should at least be someone who tries. I can’t watch someone with talent suck; it does something ugly to my nerves.

By Caleb

July 16, 2007 8:05 PM | Link to this

So we have a blog story about how the Braves don’t have a CG this year yet, and then the starter (Davies) goes out and doesn’t record a single out. Talk about putting an exclamation mark after Carroll’s blog.

By Trade Winds

July 16, 2007 8:05 PM | Link to this

Salty is looking very human at the plate lately. A young, affordable, stud pitcher in the making for Salty might not be such a bad trade after all.

By Glass Half Full (GHF)

July 16, 2007 8:06 PM | Link to this

Contreras is old and hasn’t really pitched well this year. Jennings hasn’t been healthy. Don’t wanna beat the dead horse to death, but Morris or Vasquez would be a good fit. I just don’t think we could land one of the Pirates’ young arms. I’ll take Millar over Conine because of the age issue and Millar’s 2008 option.

By AZBravoFan

July 16, 2007 8:07 PM | Link to this

I guess the earlier questions about why we’re still carrying 13 pitchers have been answered… Hey maybe Bobby should start Kyle tomorrow night. If today was his bad game, that means he’s due for a good one in his next start, right?

By chrisklob

July 16, 2007 8:08 PM | Link to this

It’s a pretty bad sign when your fill-in #5 starter who has had exactly ONE start is pinch hitting for you in the freakin’ 3rd inning.

Wayne in Utah, you’re right. It’s just one game. We can’t lose sight of that fact.

By David

July 16, 2007 8:09 PM | Link to this

That was a nice swing by Jo-Jo.

By StingerSplash

July 16, 2007 8:14 PM | Link to this

As bad as Davies was tonight - my advice to you son is don’t buy, rent and get a lease you can get out of quickly - why do the hitters seem so eager to swing at the first pitch or two tonight? This is someone they haven’t seen before. Shouldn’t they want to watch what he’s got first? Plus, the Reds’ bullpen is atrocious and you can get to them if the starter is only going to throw nine pitches an inning.

By Gil In Mechanicsville

July 16, 2007 8:15 PM | Link to this

Dear GOD, how about being careful with the lightning strikes, they are a little rough on my computer.

By bamabrave

July 16, 2007 8:16 PM | Link to this

It is just one game. However, the team needs more consistency out of the 5th spot. Carlyle is getting it done right now. Davies can’t be counted on for consistent quality starts.

By StingerSplash

July 16, 2007 8:21 PM | Link to this

With six innings still to go and needing some innings out of at least one more bullpen guy, let’s see if Bobby double-switches for Diaz after the last out.

By Carroll Rogers

July 16, 2007 8:21 PM | Link to this

hp, tennessee paul and bfan54, nice work and research on the braves loss total. you’ve done much more research than i’ve had time to do this afternoon, and i appreciate it.

i had asked the braves pr folks to check with elias on it, the discrepancy, because they don’t have the grand total in the media guide, as officially recognized by the braves. i’m sure they’ll get back to me eventually after they finish looking up all the stats on the last time a brave pitcher was pulled before recording an out. ….

it’s happened once to maddux (01) and once to glavine (89) but those were for injuries. not since 1985 and len barker vs. the reds on sept. 18 had a brave been pulled purely on…ahem. merit…..not looking good for kyle.

barker’s first eight pitches were balls - to eddie milner and pete rose. see jeff schultz’s column after the game for more details….he says hello

By TennesseePaul

July 16, 2007 8:23 PM | Link to this

Holy Cornollia! I get home, turn on the machine, bring up gameday and I see 6 runs in three innings. All I can think is, Davies gave up 6 in three. Then I scroll down and see he didn’t even get an out. Not 1 stinking out and he was pulled. I think that’s the last straw for Davies. To bad for this kid. He’s either demoted or traded after this I’d imagine. But who’d want him? How are you going to package him? He seems like more of a burdon than a potential at this point.
Crash and Burn
Bummed for him. I was on his wagon. It was a spacious, roomy roller coaster of a ride. But he has to come to an end at some point.

By Carroll Rogers

July 16, 2007 8:25 PM | Link to this

and yes i was wrong. carlyle had back-to-back 8 inning outings, not one.

By Wayne in Utah

July 16, 2007 8:26 PM | Link to this

AZBravoFan has the right idea. Since Kyle only threw 22 pitches, let’s start him tomorrow night, to get his “good” start.

I would do the Salty deal for one of the stud starters on the Pirates, or one of the Giant stud starters (Cain or Lincecum), and even though he is not available, for Oswalt. BUT that is it.

What can we get for Willie?

Will Devine get his shot tonight?

By Wayne in Utah

July 16, 2007 8:27 PM | Link to this

Come one Joey. Let’s show BC what you can do for him!

By N8

July 16, 2007 8:30 PM | Link to this

Let’s not dismiss the fact that Kyle looked OUTSTANDING in SD, THEN he had to wait 8 days to pitch again.

As you all know, I’m the LAST guy that would be nominated to be president of the Kyle Davies fan club. However, I stated it then, and I’ll state it now. He was aggreessive and in command of his pitches in SD, I just had a feeling he’d come out and lay an egg, with the long lay off.

Not sure WHAT to think of now. Like I said yesterday, I need to see results over a long period of time to be convinced that it’s the “rule” not the exception.

It looks as though Kyles start in SD, was just that……the exception.

YIKES.

By TennesseePaul

July 16, 2007 8:31 PM | Link to this

The bats have a lot of work cut out for them tonight. I’d love to see a come back. I’m not banking on it, but it sure would be a nice thing to see.

By The Truth Hurts

July 16, 2007 8:31 PM | Link to this

Nice to see Devine tonight. Good fastball. Right down the middle of the plate.

Arroyo and Harang the next two nights. What would the blog look like if swept by the Reds?

Yikes squared.

By Andy

July 16, 2007 8:31 PM | Link to this

OK, Davies was terrible again and Bobby had had a very short hook. Good for him!!!! Now, he should send his A$$ to Richmond until he is able to throw strikes consistently, which may not be until next year. Maybe he does not have the “make-up” to be a big leaguer? Cox has bent over backwards to give him every possible chance. That being said I hope the Braves do not trade for a front line starter, unless the Great GM can pull some magic out of the hat like the trade for Wickman last year. That was brilliant. Also, doesn’t make you nauseous to watch Wainwright pitch. And the bad thing is he will probably win 100 games while he’s still fairly cheap. Oh well, hindsight is always 20-20…

By Gil In Mechanicsville

July 16, 2007 8:32 PM | Link to this

Calling Dr. Bombay, Calling Dr. Bombay…We’ve got a head case, come right away. PS…. Go to Richmond, Kyle will be along shortly.

By Oops....I mean Grinch

July 16, 2007 8:35 PM | Link to this

Sorry, Gil…is that better? :-)

By TennesseePaul

July 16, 2007 8:35 PM | Link to this

Man, at this rate, we’re going to need a CG from Chuck James tomorrow and Smoltz the next day. We aren’t going to have any pitchers left. 4 innings, 4 pitchers. Plus JoJo spent as a pinch hitter.

By brian

July 16, 2007 8:35 PM | Link to this

it was a good thing I was not near my computer at the end of the first inning. I would have typed in Davies down, Villareal the starter and Davies fills Villareal’s spot. Nevermind.

Here’s hoping Jo-Jo lights it up tomorrow night. I agree that the Braves not need to panic and trade away the farm.

I also would not abandon Davies and give up on him completely. He needs to go to the minors (AA or AAA) to get his head right. Davies is still young and has way too much potential to give up on. His trade value also would be squat.

If we can get Contreras for a lesser prospect go for it. I would not give up Salty, Escobar, or Harrison for him (and would likely not give up Jo-Jo either)

By Greg in TN

July 16, 2007 8:38 PM | Link to this

Evening ladies and gents….

Not a good night to be a pitcher and have a white shirt on in Georgia. Tonight was Jeckyl Davies turn in the… uh rotation. Do you call pitching to five in the first and then calling it a night a ‘turn’ in the rotation?

I really don’t understand how these guys look so good in the Bucs series and then completely lose focus enough to let a runner score from second on a bunt attempt by the pitcher. But hey, nobody has kept Cincinnati off the scoreboard tonight between Davies, Villareal and now Joey Devine. Momma definitely told me there would be days like this.

Carroll, I think the CG issue is magnified on nights like this, however I think much of our lack of complete games has much to do with the job the bullpen has done in the first half and how they’re far and away better than their 2006 counterparts.

Hey, there is one bright spot. Jo Jo did look pretty good with the stick up there in the third.

By chrisklob

July 16, 2007 8:39 PM | Link to this

N8, for a moment I thought that jackals had stolen your identity! :-)

By StingerSplash

July 16, 2007 8:40 PM | Link to this

Their stinkin’ pitcher is 3 FOR 3! Can we trade Davies to the Reds and put Livingston at first?

By Mets Rule. You drool

July 16, 2007 8:40 PM | Link to this

Your getting EXPOSED tonight by a team the Amazin’s just DOMINATED. Hahahahahaha!!!!!!!! How’s it taste?

Good time to hop off the bandwagon because the wheels are coming off! Hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

By Wayne in Utah

July 16, 2007 8:42 PM | Link to this

N8 Didn’t Davies also have a lousy game the last time he had a long wait between starts?? Good point earlier. When somebody has such a good game, then just totally bombs, it is harder to give up on him than someone like Redman.

Problem is, can we afford to “live” with his mistakes during a pennant drive?

By ernesto

July 16, 2007 8:42 PM | Link to this

I guess you’re going to have a few games like this a year, but Yikes! What a horror hsow.

By Gil In Mechanicsville

July 16, 2007 8:42 PM | Link to this

The Braves have the yips tonight…

By ernesto

July 16, 2007 8:46 PM | Link to this

Complete game? I’d take a complete inning.

By chrisklob

July 16, 2007 8:48 PM | Link to this

Jon Sciambi just revealed that the last time a Brave starter was removed from a game without recording an out was in 1989. That starter was Tom Glavine. In retrospect, Glavine turned out pretty good so maybe there’s hope for Davies yet.

By StingerSplash

July 16, 2007 8:49 PM | Link to this

Gil,

Looks like Uncle Arthur was summoned instead of Dr. Bombay. Or we got Col. Crittenden instead.

By The Grinch

July 16, 2007 8:50 PM | Link to this

And that makes it 9-2. Ok, Y’all; I’ve had enough. Someone let me know if there’s a miracle comeback.

By Carroll Rogers

July 16, 2007 8:53 PM | Link to this

braves pr is telling me elias corroborates the 9,681 losses, which i originally got from baseball-reference.com. so pre-1876 is not recognized as major league games…guess we should make that 9,682 about now

By Bryan

July 16, 2007 8:54 PM | Link to this

Hope Bryan is getting rid of all those phantom, ball in the glove, plays tonight.

I think Bryan is a good catcher. Will be a great one I think in the future. But…… he gets too much credit for his defense now. He’s not that strong defensively. It’s like those two Escobar plays tonight at second. He should have turned two twice but only got an E for one of the plays. McCann makes lots of swipes without the ball, doesn’t come up with the ball at all and doesn’t have a very quick release on throws. He bobbled the ball out of his golve when Freel was going to third. He had a chance, but not getting the ball out of his glove cost him. These plays don’t show as errors in the box score, but a good defensive catcher makes those plays. Too many times, McCann doesn’t.

By brent a.

July 16, 2007 8:55 PM | Link to this

Go back to 2003, the last time we went (almost) this long without a complete game …

Who was our closer?

A: John Smoltz

There is correlation here, folks.

When Bobby has a dominant closer, he doesn’t wear out his starters. It’s that simple.

By Oh My

July 16, 2007 8:56 PM | Link to this

Well, maybe the Braves offense can have one of those 12 run outbursts tonight. Of course, sooner or later a Braves pitcher will have to not give up any runs.

By StingerSplash

July 16, 2007 8:57 PM | Link to this

chrisklob,

The problem with that is Glavine was barely old enough to drink then. Davies has been at this a little while now.

By I'm a douchebag from New York

July 16, 2007 9:01 PM | Link to this

Hey youse guys! ROTFL!!! I’m such a loser, I don’t even watch my team when their(sic) playing, I watch youse guys instead! Know why? Cause I yoose every opportunity I can to make people feel bad when dey lose cause everybody up here does it to me all the time!!! I’m such a douche they won’t even let me play with the other douches on the Mets blog. I just wait here where youse guys can’t see me and ROTFL every time youse guys have a bad game!! HAHAHAHA! Look, I’m gone! Peek-a-boo! See, now I’m back again! The hoo-ah at Mabel’s that raised me played the same game with me when I was a baby, then quit when she died of old age and I turned 46. It’s still funny though, huh? HAHAHAHAHA!!!! ROTFL!!!!

By ernesto

July 16, 2007 9:02 PM | Link to this

Come on Andruw we need better than that. another fall down strike out.

By Oh My

July 16, 2007 9:05 PM | Link to this

What an at bat for Chipper! WOW!!

Funny, how someone on this blog keps saying how the Mets dominated the Reds. I see the Mets won 3 of 4, but to say they dominated……I think they out scored the Reds 17-13. Some domination.

By Tomahawkin' Again

July 16, 2007 9:05 PM | Link to this

Congratulations Bobby!

By StingerSplash

July 16, 2007 9:06 PM | Link to this

In his last 10 starts before tonight, Davies had given up five or more earned runs four times. That’s consistency. Consistently bad. Kinda like Randy Watson of the “What’s Going Down” episdoe of “That’s My Mama.” “That boy good.” “Yeah. Good and terrible.” And our 4-5 hitters have just struck out against a Rule 5 guy with the sacks loaded. Tee-riff-ick.

By Greg in TN

July 16, 2007 9:07 PM | Link to this

Oops,

Angel Hernandez has evidently angered someone at Georgia Power.

By journalist jimmy smith

July 16, 2007 9:08 PM | Link to this

turn out the lights … the party is over.

By TennesseePaul

July 16, 2007 9:09 PM | Link to this

Well, since the game is toast, I’ll go back to the blog topics and history talk.
Warning: long blog post coming.

Dennis Purdy’s The Team by Team Encyclopedia of Major League Baseball States the following:
The Atlanta Braves—not the Cincinnati Reds, as many believe—can lay claim to being the oldest continuous professional franchise in all of baseball. The team that would become known as the Braves in 1912 got its start just after the Civil War as the Cincinnati Red Stockings, a top-notch amateur team. In 1868 attorney-entrepreneur Aaron Burr Champion reorganized the team, stocking it with four paid players. By 1869 Champion, through his manager Harry Wright, had completed his search for the best Eastern players money could buy, accumulating a whole team of salaried players all with outside jobs. The 1869-1870 Red Stocking toured the country, playing exhibition games for money, taking on—and destroying—all challengers for most of two years. Newspaper accounts are a bit sketchy, but it appears the team won about 130 consecutive games over two season, with only one tie marring their record before they suffered their first loss at the hands of the Brooklyn Atlantics on June 14, 1870, in front of 9,000 fans. (The game had been tied at 5-5 after nine innings, before the Red Stockings scored two runs in the top of the 11th but Brooklyn came back with three in the bottom of the inning to hand Cincinnati its first-ever loss.)

Over the remainder of the 1870 season, the Red Stockings lost five more games and the wild interest that had followed the team while they remained undefeated soon faded away—and their cash receipts dwindled along with the crowds. New team president A.P.Bronte announced that the team would not be brought back for the 1871 season due to high salary demands, so the majority of the team’s members moved to Boston and joined the new National Association, playing as the Boston Red Stockings. One of the owners of the Cincinnati Red Stockings later admitted that Bronte’s announcement not to bring the team back in 1871 had actually been a bluff in order to drive down player salaries, but the strategy backfired and they lost their powerful team.

The National Association, the first professional baseball league, operated from 1871 to 1875 and was beset by chaos, bankruptcy, and organizational nightmares. The transplanted Boston Red Stockings won four pennants in their five years (1872-1975) in the NA, dominating the competition. When the dysfunctional league folded up shop following the 1875 season, the Boston Red Stockings joined the new National League as one of the charter members and changed their official name to the Red Caps, although many fans continued to refer to them as the Red Stockings.

By Gil In Mechanicsville

July 16, 2007 9:10 PM | Link to this

Yep, strange doings in Georgia…. Bad call by the ump, throws out Francour and the light go out in Georgia…. The boy has some pull….

By chrisklob

July 16, 2007 9:12 PM | Link to this

StingerSplash, actually both players were 23 years old although Davies does have one more year of professional experience than Glavine did at the time but the number of professional experiences is pretty close. Glavine’s disaster came in his 145th professional appearance, Davies came in his 153rd. Sorry, didn’t mean to get all Shaun on you! :-)

By The Grinch

July 16, 2007 9:13 PM | Link to this

Yeah, I think the Davies/Glavine comparisons are about past their “purchase by” date. Those of you who still think he’s gonna make it are the male equivalent of a chick sitting in a support group with two black eyes going “but when he’s not beating the crap out of me and the kids, he’s so sweet! He really loves me!” Yeah, whatever. Y’all go ahead and add him to your fantasy team and buy his jersey while it’s hot.

By Chris

July 16, 2007 9:14 PM | Link to this

I think Davies’s main problem is that he’s just not very bright. He’s had 40-45 major league starts, and at this point, pitchers tend to have it figured out how to win without their best stuff. Not Davies. It’s too bad, because he has the physical ability to be a top of the rotation starter.

In any case, all we need is a #5. Buddy knows how to pitch and he’s legit. That’s been a nice surprise. Hopefully, Cormier will get his arm strength back and send Davies out. To another organization. Davies, Pena, and a top prospect for some serious bullpen help.

By StingerSplash

July 16, 2007 9:16 PM | Link to this

Is this a Liberty Media cost cutting move? Did they not pay the power bill on time? Hell, let me use my connections with Southern Company. I’ll get the lights back on.

By Tomahawkin' Again

July 16, 2007 9:19 PM | Link to this

Load the bases and don’t score? Now, you can turn out the lights. Go Padres!

By Mets rule. You drool

July 16, 2007 9:20 PM | Link to this

Taking 3 out of 4 is DOMINATION. Your probably not familiar wiht the concept. Hahahahaha!!!!!!!

The Reds suck and they are killing you.

Your being EXPOSED!!!!!

By StingerSplash

July 16, 2007 9:24 PM | Link to this

chrisklob,

Don’t forget Glavine came up under the brilliant Chuck Tanner (most overrated manager this side of Tony LaSphinctera). Anybody else remember Tanner letting Glavine take a beating in Pittsburgh and finally took him out after he reached his pitch count of 105 - in the fourth inning? Then had to withstand the leadership (?) of Russ Nixon. Otis Nixon could have outmanaged him. Donnell Nixon could have outmanaged him. Mojo Nixon could have too.

By N8

July 16, 2007 9:24 PM | Link to this

chrisklob

“N8, for a moment I thought that jackals had stolen your identity! :-)”

Every now and then, I have to let you guys know that I do have some hope for these guys.

Kyle showed me a LOT in his SD outing. More velocity, with better command on his fast ball.

Leo for YEARS tried to persuade ALL of his pitchers to go with the “85-90 percent velocity with location” theory. Well when you have guys like Maddux and Glavine that have THAT good of control to begin with, it works.

But it DIDN’T work with Odaliz, Marquis, and Schmidt. They were then cast off as guys that “didn’t get it” or guys that were trouble makers. Imagine if Smoltz would’ve gone with that philosophy early in his career, or Avery?

Sometimes you just gotta let a kid air it out, once in a while. I don’t think there is ANY coincidence that Kyle looked his best (IMO), while throwing about 3-5 MPH more on his fastball.

But to stick up for Leo, guys like Avery, Smoltz, Marquis, Odalis, and Schmidt have had a bunch of injuries to overcome in their careers.

But there still has to be some middle ground, IMO.

Wayne

“Problem is, can we afford to “live” with his mistakes during a pennant drive?”

Totally agree. Yesterday I made the comment that IF Kyle and Buddy did what they have done recently, we don’t need another starter. Today was just another reminder that YES WE DO, and that Kyle should be fine tuning his skills in Richmond.

I still don’t think we need to give up Salty or Escobar to get a top of the rotation starter. Just somebody that can give us innings consistantly, and NOT have the game be out of hand by the 2nd inning, every 3rd or 4th start like Davies and Redman did/do.

By fastasballs

July 16, 2007 9:26 PM | Link to this

I’d keep Jo Jo around just for his hitting. If he can manage to pitch well tomorrow, they can ship Davies down, keep Jo Jo & improve both the rotation & bench at the same time.

I have a feeling JS is going to make a move for pitching & it won’t be long.

I’m not getting any “come back” vibes tonight. Gotta get the next two though.

By StingerSplash

July 16, 2007 9:28 PM | Link to this

chrisklob,

My point really should have been that with Glavine’s early exit, it could have been chalked up to an isolated incident, just a woeful start. But with Davies, this is becoming all too routine. He couldn’t get out of the third in L.A. Maybe the Braves can get Kason Gabbard from the Red Sox instead, since he’s one strike away from a two-hit, complete game shutout. I take that back. He just the strike, the out and the CG ShO.

By ernesto

July 16, 2007 9:29 PM | Link to this

They just look awful. Awful.

With Jo Jo set to pitch tomorrow and who knows what we’re getting out of Smoltz on Weds. suddenly this series isn’t settin gup so nicely for us anymore.

By I'm a douchebag from New York

July 16, 2007 9:34 PM | Link to this

Let me tell youse guys a thing or two about domination! I learned it all in Catholic school as an altar boy! I’ll leave that ambiguous (oops, I don’t know that word cause I’m a dumbass but youse guys do) so I don’t get banned, but youse guys know what I mean (wink, wink, nod, nod)! ROTFL!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

By Calvin

July 16, 2007 9:37 PM | Link to this

I’ve always said that Angel Hernandez is the worst umpire in the majors.

By TennesseePaul

July 16, 2007 9:39 PM | Link to this

N8: We’ve won 4 of 5. How is that a problem? I’ll take that all season long. Ain’t nothing wrong with an .800 winning percentage. The Reds could beat us 900-2 today and, when the game finally ended, it’d still only count as one loss.
In the post season, we won’t need a fifth starter. We’ll be on a four man rotation. I’d imagine if we made it that far, Davies would be left off the post season roster anyway to make room for either another bat or another arm out of the pen.

Don’t get me wrong, Davies outing today was atrocious. I won’t be the least bit surprised if he isn’t optioned back to AAA and they turn utility wizard Woodward into the fifth starter (Just so long as it’s not Kevin Berry).
I guess my confusion is on this line: Yesterday I made the comment that IF Kyle and Buddy did what they have done recently, we don’t need another starter. Today was just another reminder that YES WE DO
Do you really ride the tide this much? You can watch Buddy go 8 strong, know Smoltz is coming back rested, see Hudson doing well, and James with a sub 4 ERA, but can’t make it through 1 loss by Davies our fifth starter?

By Trade Winds

July 16, 2007 9:40 PM | Link to this

Salty is coming back to earth and Thorman still looks pathetic at the plate.

If Salty is traded for pitching, better package Elvis and perhaps another minor league prospect and make it a blockbuster that includes someone to play first.

By chrisklob

July 16, 2007 9:40 PM | Link to this

Did Angel Hernandez miss the day in umpire school where they talked about where the strike zone is located?

By Gil In Mechanicsville

July 16, 2007 9:41 PM | Link to this

Maybe we could convert Kyle into a first baseman. He has some power.

By ernesto

July 16, 2007 9:46 PM | Link to this

I wasn’t here for the first inning, but from what I glean Bobby got the hook out pretty quickly. Was it walk, hit, walk, hit, walk or something. Anyway, the quick hook seems like writing on the wall to me about the way BC feels about Kyle’s “efforts”.

By TennesseePaul

July 16, 2007 9:46 PM | Link to this

OK, I’m watching this on GameDay. Someone please explain what’s going on. It has Escobar getting hit by pitch. Then has him as a strike out. How’s that work?

By Josh C

July 16, 2007 9:48 PM | Link to this

MetsDrool is awfully enthralled by exposure. Perhaps he’s grown accustomed to his daddy exposing himself. Jesus juice, MetsDrool?

Smile for the camera, Bobby Livingston, this is YOUR night! Anybody else get the feeling that this is a flash-in-the-pan performance? Can’t break a window pane, umpire with a big strike zone, opposing pitcher blows, unearned run support? I say we don’t hear from this guy in two years.

By the way, this may not be the popular opinion, but Jeff’s getting tossed tonight shows me exactly why he gets big hits and why he’s valuable to the team. While he acted childish, he was still competing in a 9-2 game. Those of us who have seen Andruw strike out smiling in late-and-close situations should appreciate the intense football-player attitude.

By Chris

July 16, 2007 9:48 PM | Link to this

I wish we could have Kason Gabbard. I’d trade Pena and Davies for him.

By AMG

July 16, 2007 9:51 PM | Link to this

The lights going out? … that was the baseball gods telling the Braves to stop and try again tomorrow.

So I read where Boras and his scouts helped Andruw. Probably went something like:

Scout: “I found a problem with your hitting approach”

Andruw: “What? Really? I have a problem?”

Scout: “Everytime you swing like an idiot you cost yourself $100,000. You are down 5 million so far this year.”

Andrew: “Really?

Peace

By chrisklob

July 16, 2007 9:54 PM | Link to this

Stingersplash, Glavine had some pretty rough times his first couple of years too. Check his stats out http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/glavito02.shtml as I am too drunk, lazy and tired to analyze them!

By no means is Davies performance tonight acceptable. He was atrocious. If he’s not the guy that gets sent down when JS makes a move I’d be surprised. I just don’t think he’s ready mentally. I think the physical aspect is there though. Several starts ago I made the point that perhaps he should see a sports psychologist. Well, I made that comment about someone on this team. Aw hell, maybe it’s ME that needs to go see a shrink!

Anyway, in this instant gratification world that we live in it is easy to lose perspective. Very few guys can consistently dominate at his age. I’m NOT saying that Davies will ever be as good as Glavine. Guys like Glavine don’t come around very often and for every one that is like him there are fifty (or more) that wash out or just don’t live up to the hype. Just saying that the jury is still out. And for Davies’ sake, I hope it’s not a hangin’ jury, cause he’ll be swinging before the next sunrise! :-)

By TexasBrave

July 16, 2007 10:03 PM | Link to this

TennPaul is right Davies is our fifth starter, no reason to jump ship. We do, however, need a little more consistancy. No matter how Reyes fairs tomorrow I don’t think he is the answer either and should be allowed to go back down the the minors instead of learning from the school of hard knocks up here, just look at Davies. So were does that leaves us? If you look down at the minors is there really anyone ready to fill the fifth starter role? No. So do we go out and get a pitcher that will end up costing us some of our future stars just to get into the playoffs? No!

So what is the answer to all our ills? Sorry don’t have one for you. So perhaps we should just let Kyle and Roger try and work things out and then let JS do his thing in the offseason.

I still think we make it to the playoffs even with Davies. TennPaul is righ, we only need at most 4 quality starters.

By Calvin

July 16, 2007 10:07 PM | Link to this

TenneseePaul

It looked like Escobar got hit but apparently he wasn’t. Angel Hernandez is behind the plate. Yea.. you know some bad umpiring is going on.

By N8

July 16, 2007 10:16 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul

“N8: We’ve won 4 of 5. How is that a problem?”

You guys are ALWAYS pointing out to me how damn negative I am.

Please point out to me, where my stating that Kyle Davies is inconsistant, that I made reference to winning 4 out of 5 being a “problem”.

Stop trying to start an argument, when you KNOW that wasn’t anywhere close to what I was doing.

Much appreciated.

By Josh C

July 16, 2007 10:17 PM | Link to this

John Kruk just speculated a Salty-for-Dontrelle swap. Thoughts?

By Robert

July 16, 2007 10:19 PM | Link to this

The frequancy with which the starters are failing to go deep into the game is what is concerning.

Gimme seven good innings 162 times a season and I could care less if there aint a complete game in the pile

And if the long relievers are often getting up before the fans are settled in their seats, then a complete game every two weeks wont mean there isnt a problem

Went to the game yesterday with Grinch. Deep down I was hoping that someone might sense that his biggest fan was in house and treat me to 6the record breaking ejection, but it wasnt in the cards. Matter of fact, I caught nary a glimpse of the genius. Wouldve loved to have seen him leaning on the railing looking up at the Braves girls dancing during the seventh inning stretch, but it didnt happen

Heard a “click” and saw something leaving the yard quickly as we were walking down to our seats. Didnt realize that would be Pittsburgh’s highlight for the day. Said “You’ll see that on ESPN tonight” after Chipper’s great play. Never saw Sportscenter tho (asleep long before) Curious if it made it as a web gem.

Most interesting observation of the day was that we heard “Last call for beer” at least twice. You think about it. That’s a hell of a way to sell a lot of beer!

And before I forget - Lew - Thanks for the Twinkie, dude. You’re ok, no matter what Grinchy said

By Gil In Mechanicsville

July 16, 2007 10:21 PM | Link to this

Were it not for the fact that Scott Thorman is out of options, he would be joining Kyle on the bus to Richmond.

By All Spin Zone

July 16, 2007 10:21 PM | Link to this

I think that the foot Thorman has on that banana peel may be starting to skid a bit faster. Two strikeouts, a throwing error.

By David O'Brien

July 16, 2007 10:21 PM | Link to this

no offense taken, CHAD, since I didn’t write the blog.

If you look between the headline and the first sentence of the blog, you’ll see what we call a “byline.”

By bravesfan

July 16, 2007 10:25 PM | Link to this

Ok this is just a really bad night that we need to all just forget about.

By TampaBrave

July 16, 2007 10:25 PM | Link to this

Mr. Rogers,

Is it me, or are the starters average innings dropping dramatically. I contend their is something amiss with either their cinditioning or pitching strategy. These guys are laboring to get to the fifth inning. What is up?

By TennesseePaul

July 16, 2007 10:26 PM | Link to this

Thanks Calvin.

By All Spin Zone

July 16, 2007 10:28 PM | Link to this

Salty for Dontrelle?

That would make about as much sense as anything I’ve heard because Dontrelle can hit.

If Salty leaves, you need someone that can hit to play first. Dontrelle will have to play first on his off days.

By Kool Aid Drinker

July 16, 2007 10:28 PM | Link to this

DOB

WHat are your thoughts on trading for Sammy Sosa?

By Josh C

July 16, 2007 10:29 PM | Link to this

I gotta say, you dudes that can sit there staring at the computer following that Gameday or whatever it is are much more patient than I. Tried it a couple times, got sick of it after 15 minutes, then broke down and forked over the dough for Extra Innings.

By Josh C

July 16, 2007 10:31 PM | Link to this

Well, Weathers has the prerequisite gut to join our ‘pen…

By chrisklob

July 16, 2007 10:33 PM | Link to this

Ken Rosenthal at foxsports.com has an interesting article up about Mark Teixeira and trading prospects for him. He says that prospects are overrated. Pretty interesting point-of-view. Read it here

By TennesseePaul

July 16, 2007 10:33 PM | Link to this

N8: Stop trying to start an argument, when you KNOW that wasn’t anywhere close to what I was doing
Easy enough…
I’ll repeat this part then…
I guess my confusion is on this line:
Yesterday I made the comment that IF Kyle and Buddy did what they have done recently, we don’t need another starter. Today was just another reminder that YES WE DO
Do you really ride the tide this much? How can you think “8 innings strong, we don’t need a starter.” then turn around and watch our fifth starter get hammered and revert back to “YES WE DO”? It’s the fifth starter.

By brian

July 16, 2007 10:38 PM | Link to this

the ever genius Phillips on ESPN (there is a reason he is on ESPN and not still running the Muts):

the Braves will trade for big Teix (though he backtracked at the end and just said JS will make a big deal)

I just do not see the deal for big Teix for 1.5 years. No way the Braves will resign him. The Rangers will probably want Salty, Harrison or Jo-Jo, and probably Escobar as well. No way I mortgage my future for big Teix who has not hit the same the past few years, has Scott Borass as his agent, and will be long gone in 2009.

That is, unless he can also be our 4th starter

By HP

July 16, 2007 10:39 PM | Link to this

Thanks to those who clarify for me why Braves losses aren’t same as CR. I fully understand it now. Scott Thorman is not a major league player. Why? He swings like he is going to hit a homerun every time when he bats. I haven’t seen him try get a base hit for a while. Either he strikes out or fly ball out. The guy needs to be released or traded to a club that needs a first baseman. As I always said that Kyle Davies is a complete JOKE!!!Which he is. He is considered as a 6th starting pitcher for the Braves. He is now pitching for the braves for 3 some years and has not found consistency. I wonder what he does during off-season when he needs to work on the mechanics. I have never heard a coach working with him or he is trying to get better. All I have seen him is pitch and pitch either at Richmond and Atlanta. We can see now that Kyle Davies has a career 6.08ERA. I don’t understand how is thats possible, but it is. So what I think the Braves need to do is either send him back to Richmond if he has an option or trade him to some other team in a deal that could land us another pitcher. If Braves can fix 5th starter spot than their should be no problem for us to win the division.

By Gil In Mechanicsville

July 16, 2007 10:42 PM | Link to this

Two things I did for myself once I was retired, went to high speed internet and bought the MLB package. The MLB came first as they only ran cable to me last year. Thought I was going to have to purchase satellite dish for the computer for awhile but so many bad reviews made me stay with dial up.

By BravesFanInRockies

July 16, 2007 10:49 PM | Link to this

fwiw,

A few days ago the guy who runs the mlbtraderumors.com blog suggested the Braves could trade Salty for Tex and if he won’t re-sign, then the Braves let Tex walk and take the two draft picks. And the payroll savings. (By then, the Big Kahuna might be ML ready.)

OK, I’m not sure I like the deal — sounds too much like one by someone who runs a fantasy league and not a real league — but it would not be totally illogical.

By BravesDave

July 16, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this

As horrible as the pitching was tonight…the top three hitters in the Braves lineup were on base 10 times, and the Braves scored three runs. We need a nice Mets loss and a nice Phillies loss tonight. Then we need to pray that JoJo Reyes looks a little better than Kyle Davies tomorrow night.

By N8

July 16, 2007 10:51 PM | Link to this

T. Paul

It’s really pretty simple logic, that I’m certain you are intelligent enough to grasp.

AFTER Kyles last start, (you know, the one where he threw in the mid-90’s for the first time that I’ve EVER noticed, and spotted that fastball with pin-point control), I thought to myself:

“Hmmmm. IF Kyle looks like THIS in the future, we DON’T need another starter.

Well obviously after tonight, he DIDN’T look like that, so I was YET AGAIN reminded that he is probably not ready to handle being on the bump every 5 days in the big leagues yet.

Are you STILL with me?

Of course I would take 4 out of 5 games all year long, who wouldn’t? But since the beginning of 2006, we’re about 5 games over .500.

So the question is to you…..are you willing to settle for 4 out of 8?

Because if you expect to win 4 out of 5 the rest of the way, you glasses are getting rosier by the minute.

Stop trying to read between the lines and ACTUALLY read the words.

By fastasballs

July 16, 2007 10:53 PM | Link to this

Sammy Sosa is not exactly someone JS would go get, no way.

IF the Braves were to deal Salty for Willis or Snell, I would take Snell in a second over Willis. Dontrelle is living off of reputation from his first few years. Also you wouldn’t have to pitch to Salty 18 games or however many is played against Florida in a given year. Snell would also be cheaper & easier to retain in the long run.

I’m not advocating trading him for either, in fact I hope they keep him. If Salty is traded, 1B becomes even more of a disaster than it is now. Two moves would have to be made if Salty is moved for another starter because Thorman would be lucky to hit Carolina league pitching right now. In one respect if you like Salty be glad Thorman is proving to be less than desirable right now. In a few years we may be thanking Thorman for sucking profusely this year as it forced Atlanta to keep Salty.

If Davies was pitching well on a regular basis, then there wouldn’t be a need for a 13th pitcher right now, clearing the way for Pena to be up here right now. Also the only BIG move would be to get a right handed bat to play first. Unless they were looking at Tex, it wouldn’t cost a big time prospect.

At this point Davies & Thorman are the two that are holding this team back, but what other options are there? They don’t want to release Thorman & I doubt anyone would trade for him, but them again I would never have thought JS would get Wickman for some obscure A ball catcher.

By chrisklob

July 16, 2007 10:54 PM | Link to this

brian, did Phillips say how JS was going to pay for a big deal? Prospects (where the other team picks up a lot of the financial tab)? Increased payroll from our new overlord, Liberty? I didn’t watch it so I’m not being sarcastic, I really am curious.

I generally take anything he says with a grain of salt anyway. You’re right, there’s a reason he’s not GM of the MEts anymore. I loved the story in Moneyball where Bean calls Phillips to fleece him out of about $250k to pay for a player. Priceless!

By Kool Aid Drinker

July 16, 2007 10:56 PM | Link to this

Carroll

What are your thoughts for tradign for Sammy Sosa?

Sorry for bringing it up because hopefully it wont happen but.. there seem to be a lot more YES to SAMMY than NO to SAMMY on the blog and i cant figure out why. Ive got to admit I havent seen any Texas games so I dunno what im missing. i just think trading for Sammy Sosa is a bad idea. and no im not racist because i dont like his homerun hop. IF chipper jones did a bunny hop when he hit a homerun i would think he is a jackass too.

By BravesDave

July 16, 2007 11:05 PM | Link to this

JS is not going to trade for Teixeira. The Rangers would ask for more then Saltalamacchia. And there is no way that JS would even pretend that he could sign Teixeira long-term. The Braves have already been burned on these JD Drew-type trades in the past…no way it happens again. Let Saltalamacchia play first base, and go get Matt Morris. Smoltz, Hudson, Morris, James, & Carlyle would be right up there with the best rotations in the NL. That trade would get the Braves into the playoffs. And myabe the Braves could get Morris without giving up Salty or Escobar.

By Robert

July 16, 2007 11:10 PM | Link to this

Some more thoughts. Yesterday was NOT a great win. It was a nice win, and a sweep is always great. But the Pirates blew the execution of a number of plays, and Wickman’s 1-2-3 ninth nevertheless had a crescendo theme to it (each out longer and louder than the last one)

As for Wickman’s entry from the bullpen. I’m not sure what I wouldve called it. It certainly wasnt running, or even trotting (both those terms involve motion that has far greater pace to it than what Wickman demonstrated. Mechanically, it somewhat resembled jogging. If it had been tape, I wouldve guessed they were showing jogging in super slo-motion. There - He was slogging in from the bullpen.

Whatever it was, he could, in fact, not sustain it all the way to the mound.

By chrisklob

July 16, 2007 11:13 PM | Link to this

Kool Aid Drinker, you didn’t ask me but I’ll chime in anyway. Sosa doesn’t really seem like a Bobby Cox kind of player to me. Too much flash, pomp and circumstance for that old school manager. Besides, I don’t really see where where help in the outfield is our greatest need. We need to improve the bench, rotation and possibly the bullpen before we need to look at the outfield.

By BravesDave

July 16, 2007 11:14 PM | Link to this

The Pirates would have to be nuts to trade Snell. What would they gain? What do teams need more than anything else??? Solid pitching. Why give up a young, solid, winning starting pitcher for position players? Doesn’t make sense. I can see giving up a reliever for a 30-HR-type first baseman (Mike Gonzalez for Adam LaRoche), but no way do they give up Snell for prospects.

By Bob, Journalist

July 16, 2007 11:14 PM | Link to this

Nathan It’s really pretty simple logic, that I’m certain you are intelligent enough to grasp … you should be ashamed and you should apologize!

It’s not like you to boorish and openly condescending toward those you respect.

By I'm a douchebag from New York

July 16, 2007 11:18 PM | Link to this

Robert, you gotta admit the Bach fugue was pretty cool, though. Wicky’s probably got that playing every time he opens the fridge; it’s what his leftovers hear right before they die. :-)

By Greg in TN

July 16, 2007 11:21 PM | Link to this

Tough night at the Ted, but they don’t count the Reds runs tomorrow night too, so we get a fresh slate to begin. Padres seem to be helping us so far out west.

The Salty for Dontrelle Willis is interesting, but I don’t ever see the Marlins trading him within the division.

I was a very strong proponent of being able to take your runs scored in one game and attribute some to the next games after game 5 of the ‘91 Series. Glad tonight that’s no longer the case.

Here’s hoping Jo Jo pitches 7 complete giving up a run, five hits and goes 2-3 at the plate with a couple of RBI singles.

By Robert

July 16, 2007 11:29 PM | Link to this

Now you have raised an interesting philosphocal question.

You see, the fact that they became leftovers means that you once passed on eating them.

And I dont see Wickman doing that very often.

Maybe they are someone else’s leftovers.

By Bob, Journalist

July 16, 2007 11:29 PM | Link to this

Gil, thanks for the heads up on “Hank” … the way he admires his own reflection suggests he might just be one of us in disguise.

By N8

July 16, 2007 11:33 PM | Link to this

Bob, Journalist

“you should be ashamed and you should apologize!”

“It’s not like you to boorish and openly condescending toward those you respect.”

Et Tu….Bob. :-)

Plain and simple. So let me get this right. I should appologize for remarking on his intelligence, when I was making it a point to acknowledge he has some? I will not appologize for that. Had I asked him if he was “too stupid” to grasp my point. THEN I would appologize.

I made a statement. He took it OUT OF CONTEXT, thus I did my best to clarify my point. In the process, I acknowledged the fact that T. Paul was MORE THAN intelligent enough to grasp my point.

There was NO malace or harm meant behind that comment.

Now YOU TOO have taken one of my remarks out of context.

I’m OUT for the night. You guys can fight and argue amongst yourselves.

By The Grinch

July 16, 2007 11:34 PM | Link to this

Oops, there I go again. I guess I’m not very good at this hidden identity thing. Bob, it’s not like Nathan to be boorish and openly condescending? We are talking about the same person, right? (luv ya, N8)

Robert is correct; Big Bob looked like an Elephant Seal scooting out to the mound to protect his harem.

I think it’s time to trade Davies for a twinkie.

By chrisklob

July 16, 2007 11:36 PM | Link to this

Hy douch bag from Nw York, you ow m_ a nw kyboard for that commnt about Wickman’s rfrigrator music. I just spit bourbon all ovr my kyboard and th _ ky(lttr btw_n d and f) won’t work anymor!

By BravesDave

July 16, 2007 11:38 PM | Link to this

By the way, don’t look now, but the Mets are DOMINATING the Padres.

By Robert

July 16, 2007 11:42 PM | Link to this

Oh gawd Grinch - what a visual.

And who constitutes this harem. Who are Wickey’s b***?

Should I share the observation you made about yesterday’s game on our way out?

By Bob, Journalist

July 16, 2007 11:51 PM | Link to this

Poor Nathan, could it be that the Christmas Thief is right?

Perhaps you shouldn’t “appologize” … a simple apology would be enough. I’ll change my glasses an look again … perhaps you might do the same … seemed condescending to me, plain and simple.

By The Grinch

July 16, 2007 11:53 PM | Link to this

Who are Wicky’s b&%$$es? Hmm. I guess whoever gets in between him and the bacon at Shoney’s breakfast buffet. I don’t recall excactly which observation you’re referring to (by the time we left, I was on auto-pilot to get home to sleep off my hangover), but why not? As long as it’s not one that would probably get me banned.

By Poor polls

July 16, 2007 11:54 PM | Link to this

Will someone in a position of authority at AJC please look at recent polls regarding Braves or UGA. Most do not really give choices. So…in order not to check something you disagree with, you must abstain.

By Wayne in Utah

July 16, 2007 11:56 PM | Link to this

As much as I do not care for Scott Bore-us, I can see some logic in picking up Teixeira if it could be done ONLY for Salty and some less significant minor leaguers. I can’t see BC getting Salty enough starts at first to approach the production of Tex. If we had Tex, no doubt Thorman would be on the bench or gone, thus Tex plays 100% of the time.

Lots of teams have gone deep into the playoffs with worse starting 5’s than we have, and most clubs would be thrilled with a 5th starter who could get a win about 40% of the time.

Not that I want to trade Salty, I don’t. I would prefer if he is to be dealt, to get someone like Snell, Gorzelanny, or Cain for him.

I can see the winter being a good time to move one of our SS’s, as there will be several teams in need of a decent SS. To make this successful, we need to get or develop a sub for Chipper who can also cover all infield positions. (Lillibridge?? or Holt??)

Nite Braves fans.

By The Grinch

July 16, 2007 11:57 PM | Link to this

That was me, chris; sorry about that. Hey, if it makes you feel better you now type more like Mets Drool who I was using that monikker to make fun of. You, too can be rendered functionally illiterate by drinking and typing while reading Grinch’s prose!

By KC

July 16, 2007 11:59 PM | Link to this

Kyle Davies just keeps getting shelled. I guess it’s time for him to go where all washed out Atlanta pitchers go these days… to Seattle.

How in the world are the Mariners winning ? The HoRam for Soriano thing was a disaster for them (at least so far), and paying good money for Reitsma hasn’t exactly worked out either.

Anyway, I’m sure I’m late to the “put Davies’ head on a platter party”, but I’ll have to chip in. He’s probably a great guy, and he may yet turn into a quality major league starter… but I don’t want to see him again this season.

Time to find another starter. PLEASE JS!!!!! I’m sure Homeboy is working the phones. Let’s hope there’s something out there.

By flbravesgirl

July 17, 2007 12:02 AM | Link to this

Well, that was unpleasant. Looked to me like Bobby has run out of patience with Davies.

A head’s up to those of you with satellite or digital cable: Extra Innings is running a free preview right now, trying to get people to sign up for the 2nd half. I think they usually do it for a week or so.

By chrisklob

July 17, 2007 12:08 AM | Link to this

Grinch no problem. I always keep a backup keyboard. Never know when I’m going to spit up on one! That was a good line Grinch! I ROFLMMFAO on that one!

By Chase

July 17, 2007 12:10 AM | Link to this

Calm down everyone….they can’t win EVERY game!

We do need another starter and we’ll get one.

Muts are losing….Braves are only 1 1/2 behind with what…70 left to play?

They’ll be fine!

I’ll take winning 4 out of every 5, every time!

Heck just 2 out of every 3 will be more than enough to win the division.

If we can take the next two, the Muts are going against PEAVY and MADDUX… the Braves could be in first by Thursday Morning!!!!

By KC

July 17, 2007 12:11 AM | Link to this

flbravesgirl: Cool! Thanks for the heads up. I’ll have to check that out.

Well, gotta catch some shut eye. G’night all. Here’s hoping the Padres pull this thing out tonight (even though that puts us a game further back in the WC race).

Have fun flogging Kyle Davies… uh, I meant… have fun blogging about Kyle Davies. =)

By chrisklob

July 17, 2007 12:11 AM | Link to this

BTW, Dodgers are POUNDING the Phils right now, 10-1. If only the Padres can hold on to their lead, this day won’t be a complete waste.

By bravesfan

July 17, 2007 12:11 AM | Link to this

Hey flbravesgirl thanks for the info.

By Serbok

July 17, 2007 12:27 AM | Link to this

I just do not understand why bobby seems to have run out of patience with Davies~ I know a lot of you guys have also. Didnt he pitch a “lights out game” against the padres b4 the break? To pull him after 5 hitters really baffles me. For those of you who have read any of my previous posts, you know I was very critical of BC. As I said in those posts~ I would certainly reverse thoughts if he showed a sembelance of managing the team. Well seems to me he has! I’m very happy with his in-game strategies over the last 6-8 weeks. I still feel Davies would have turned it around. Something seems to have “happened tho” I dont quite get Bobby pulling him so quickly~ However as I have said, BC seems to have taken a much more Proactive stance in his management of the team, No longer waiting for 3 run homer, Playing salty and Yunel, Just hope he starts to play Salty everyday. I just dont get it, how he pulled davies after 5 hitters? I will go for his decision (like it matters?) only because of “his new found” realization that he DOES play an important part of the team winning or losing~instead of just being a cheerleader. I just do not understand the move today. There was about 14 or 15 yrs where he could just sit back and watch, do to the talent “veterans” on the field. I think Bobby is doin a Dam fine job! Just dont get why he pulled davies so quick. Maybe to Get Davies attention? Send him a message to get his shyte together? The man obviousley has the talent to be a very good #3 pitcher at least?

any thoughts on this?

Sorry for the long post~ (not really!!) Joe’s Garage!

By gotigers72

July 17, 2007 12:32 AM | Link to this

Go back and check out the last few games. Pitchers are starting to pitch around Chipper on a regular basis. Especially with men on base. So not only is Andruw hitting in the 4 hole a mistake because of his pitiful average with RISP, but now the #3 hitter, one of the best hitters in the MLs, is not getting anything to hit because pitchers would rather pitch to a guy with a .211 average as opposed to a guy with a .336 average. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out. When is the “DUH” factor gonna hit BC?

By Serbok

July 17, 2007 12:37 AM | Link to this

I didnt get to watch the game tonight~ after readinf some of ya’lls posts I guess Daies really looked like Shyte 2nite?

By bravesfan

July 17, 2007 12:43 AM | Link to this

Awww… I get ole Willie Randolf is injured he can’t even go to the mound to pull the pitcher out ha ha SORRY!!!! GO PADRES 5-1

By The Grinch

July 17, 2007 12:44 AM | Link to this

Serbok, the reason Bobby pulled Davies so quick and appeared to “lose patience” is because Davies HAS SHOWN US ALL ENOUGH. He’s been with us for three years, and he pitches 1 great game for every four or five he can’t get out of the first inning or two. The only reason he’s been allowed to stay up THIS long is because he obviously has mid-to-top of the rotation talent. Unfortunately, he obviously isn’t capable of using it. He’s a mush-head. If this were “Of Mice and Men” he’d be Lennie. Bobby’s been indulging him about 15 starts too long and tonight he finally crushed the rabbit. He doesn’t have to go home, but he’s got to get the heck up outta here and let someone with a pitching IQ somewhere above a turnip have a chance, even with less “stuff.”

IMO. :-)

By fastasballs

July 17, 2007 12:44 AM | Link to this

The Muts are getting EXPOSED by the Padres. I think I get as much enjoyment from a Muts loss as I do a Braves win.

The Padres can actually put a few runs on the board since Barrett & Monopoly arrived there.

By Double Deuce

July 17, 2007 12:49 AM | Link to this

Salty’s value increases with every Scott Thorman at bat. It’s almost to the point where the Braves can’t afford to trade Salty no matter who’s available. I know we need pitching, but we need a bat at first base also. Thorman must be part of a trade package in the making or he would already be out on waivers. I can’t see any other reason to hold on to someone who has absolutely no confidence at the plate.

The Matt Morris talk is interesting. I think he would be a good fit to the rotation, a solid 4th or 5th starter as long as the price isn’t too high. Kyle has had his chances and the best thing for him would be sent down so there’s not so damn much pressure and he can learn to pitch again. And to all those hoping for a miracle out of Jojo, he’s got talent but we are at that point where we don’t have time for someone to develop at the major league level, and that’s where I see him. Maybe out of the pen, but I don’t see him succeeding as a starter yet. Just my opinion.

By BravesDave

July 17, 2007 12:54 AM | Link to this

Shyte about sums it up from Davies. Couldn’t throw strikes. Griffey hit a double play grounder to short, but Edgar was playing behind 2nd in the shift, so it became an RBI single. Bases loaded walk to Dunn was the end of the night.

By Scott

July 17, 2007 12:59 AM | Link to this

Please keep Salty in the lineup. And Davies is done in Atlanta, at least this year.

By I drool on the Mets tools

July 17, 2007 1:01 AM | Link to this

The Mets just finished another dominating performance. HAHAHAHAHA!!!! The Mets are dominating the National League. Look at tonight’s game…the Mets were only down 2-1 going into the 7th inning. That is DOMINATION!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

By The Grinch

July 17, 2007 1:11 AM | Link to this

I wonder why Mets Drool isn’t here laughing anymore? How odd. G’night, all. Dream sweet dreams of Davies being traded for Oswalt.

By Serbok

July 17, 2007 1:27 AM | Link to this

Grinch Thanx for the response~ I did see the replay of the hit with the shift on~ Cant blame Davies for that. I really thought that Carlyle’s performance would pressure Davies into being the talent he really is. I try to stay “current” with the blog~ if you have read any of my posts~ some are ridiculous and some are even more so!? LOL However~ I still stand FIRM on the Bravo’s not making any “major Trades involving the yunell and salty? It’s a sellers mkt, and I do believe, We have the team to beat! Much more cohesiveness with The Braves as far as a team goes than the Muts have? Just a general feeling~ cant explain why~ Seems as tho these muts and yanks want it so much they cant see the forrest for the trees. As i posted earlier~ with the way Bobby has been managing of late~ I certainly cannot second guess him pulling Davies~ Just seemed kinda strange to me~ like something going on behind the scenes that I (we?) are just not seeing? dunno~ maybe~ I’m just being too much of a homer. I do feel tho~ We will be in the post season~ There’s just not enuff “talent” out there for the muts to buy~ I dunno~ I do know one thing tho~ I’m enjoying the hell outta watching the braves this year!!!!!! LOL GO BRAVES

By Coach

July 17, 2007 1:28 AM | Link to this

Any GM who wouldn’t want Sosa , especially considering that he could be had for a minor leaguer or two , just doesn’t want to win bad enough.

By Serbok

July 17, 2007 1:30 AM | Link to this

Dreams Indeed! :o) If we could get Oswalt!!!!!! WS here we come!!!!!!!!

By Kool Aid Drinker

July 17, 2007 2:00 AM | Link to this

Where’s COACH????

Why aren’t you saying that Dave O’Brien is an uninformed bastard and has his facts wrong about Thorman? Why dont you type out another paragraph about how Thorman has another option left? Come on we all want to hear. Tell me why Im wrong and DOB is wrong. Im still waiting for someone that covers the braves to tell you how wrong it would be to sign S.Sosa. You called me out when i had nothign to say to you so im calling your a* out. Where are you? Back up your Thorman claim. Comebackoutofthecloset

By Serbok

July 17, 2007 2:07 AM | Link to this

Coach, theres a reason Sosa can be had for a minor leaguer? He is “tainted” Would destroy team chemistry! Not worth it IMO.

By uga_dawg

July 17, 2007 2:19 AM | Link to this

anyone else want to tell me why davies changed his windup? he went from stopping at his chest to his old wind up of last year. he trotted that out that old wind up in the dodger game on july 3. bc did not seem so pleased. bobby made the comment “whatever works” in the paper prior to that start. I think bobby has just about had it with this kid. great arm 10 cent head.

By uga_dawg

July 17, 2007 2:30 AM | Link to this

why not see what francouer could fetch? guy is never goin to be high ops guy in fact his ops is not much higher than willie harris. really reminds me of pat burrell. strikes me as a guy that does not listen too much what coaches have to say. PENDLETON ONCE SAID JEFF THINKS HE CAN CLIMB MT EVEREST WITH SPOOL OF THREAD AND A NEEDLE. misses cutoff men regularly and really is just an average offensive player. brndon jones might be a legit 5 tool player

By Kool Aid Drinker

July 17, 2007 2:38 AM | Link to this

Yo COACH

Tell me again how Thorman can be sent back to AAA without having to clear wavers. Im dumb…

By koolAid Sucker

July 17, 2007 2:45 AM | Link to this

I happen to agree with the old coach. just because the blogger refuses to become a yes man to obrien makes him unique. hey kool aid boy , you suck at the breast of obrien or what ?

By uga_dawg

July 17, 2007 2:45 AM | Link to this

scott thorman = poormans ryan klesko

By DSGB

July 17, 2007 2:47 AM | Link to this

uga_dawg I have to disagree with trading Jeff. I’ve never heard anything about him being hard to coach. He is a fan favorite who sells tickets and he suits up every day. People wouldn’t be too pleased with him leaving.

By Kool AId

July 17, 2007 3:02 AM | Link to this

I LOVE DOB titty…the best in the world

By uga_dawg

July 17, 2007 3:03 AM | Link to this

would be a public relations nightmare but we could use some out of the box thinking on how to improve pitching long term. hudson has one year left and outside smoltz not a whole lot down on the farm. just think francouer is overated. lot of rightfielders can hit 280 with 20 and 90 rbi. not saying i dont like jeff, but think salty is one a kind reminds me of a young piazza.

By Bob, Journalist

July 17, 2007 3:10 AM | Link to this

Serbok, save your ink. For whatever the reason, it seems like ‘ol Coach is wearing earplugs and blinders these days … but at least he’s consistent … methinks all his daughters are married so he doesn’t care about anything but winning … losing coaches worry about the small stuff … winners have to stay focused … this ain’t no boy scout troop, you know!

You can’t argue with this coach, he’s always right … even when he’s wrong … he’s replaced all his mirrors with photos of himself … personally, I liked the old coach better.

By Kool Aid

July 17, 2007 3:13 AM | Link to this

DOB’s t** arent the only baseball analysts that say Thorman cant be sent down to AAA.

Find me one piece of online information that isnt your distorted view on some baseball rule that says Thorman can be sent down without clearing waivers and ill shut the f*** up. And dont call me butthead that hurts my heart :(

By Coach (I'm only right 90% of the time)

July 17, 2007 3:59 AM | Link to this

This is the list of players who are out of options in 2007 : 1.P- Oliver Perez (Mets)

2.P- Jon Adkins (Mets)

3.P- Taylor Buchholz (Rockies)

4.P- Francisco Cabrera (Indians)

5.P- Jason Davis (Indians)

6.P- Wil Ledezma (Tigers)

7.P- Jason Grilli (Tigers)Hourglass_2

8.P- J.D. Durbin (Twins)

9.P- Edgar Gonzalez (Diamondbacks)

10.P- Edwin Jackson (Devil Rays)

11.P- Kirk Saaraloos (Reds)

12.P- Royce Ring (Padres)

13.P- Heath Bell (Padres)

14.P- Andrew Brown (Padres)

15.P- Sean Henn (Yankees)

16.P- Francisco Rosario (Blue Jays)

17.OF- Marcus Thames (Tigers)

18.OF- Todd Linden (Giants)

19.OF- Bubba Crosby (Reds)

20.OF Josh Hamilton (Reds)

21.OF- Freddie Bynum (Orioles)

22.1B- Andy Phillips (Yankees)

23.1B- Josh Phelps (Yankees)

24.1B- Lance Niekro (Giants)

25.Util- Scott Hairston (Diamondbacks)

26.Util- Jerry Hairston Jr. (Rangers) Options: A player who is still on the 40-man roster but not on the 25-man roster or the disabled list is on an optional assignment to the minor leagues. One of the more complicated matters in baseball, options can be simply explained. A player has three years after he is added to the 40-man roster in which he can be sent to the minors without being removed from the roster, these are option years. An option is used every year such a player is sent down unless the player remains in the minors for less than 10 days in each stint. A player “out-of-options” has exhausted his option years. There are many exceptions to this rule however. If a player has not been on the major-league roster for more than 90 days during the season in his career, then he is eligible for a fourth option year. 2007 is Thorman’s fourth and last option year , there you have it in black and white. Do the math , Kool Aid Idiot. 2004 first option , 2005 second option , 2006 third option and 2007 fourth option. If you cannot admit that I’m right , then you must be totally asinine.

By Double Deuce

July 17, 2007 4:31 AM | Link to this

++Coach++ I may be wrong, but options are not counted by years, but by the number of times you have been up and down between he minors and majors. You can use all your options in one year if thats the way it happens to work out. Thorman ++is++ out of options.

By Serbok

July 17, 2007 4:36 AM | Link to this

July 17th 2007

By Double Deuce

July 17, 2007 4:49 AM | Link to this

When Bobby pulled Davies today it was with the same attitude he pulled McBride the last time we saw him. I think Kyle should go to Richmond, and I also believe that once that decision is made Kyle will feel the weight of the Braves off his shoulders. I hope then he can realize the talent he has and learn how to get major league hitters out. Can’t even imagine the pressures of trying to learn your craft in front of 35,000 people every day, plus the press. I don’t care what they pay you, what a tough way to earn a living.

By Coach (I'm only right 90% of the time)

July 17, 2007 4:59 AM | Link to this

Double Deuce , I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But , you are incorrect my friend. An option year is just that , an entire year where a team can send a player back and forth between the big league team and the minors an unlimited number of times in the time frame of just one option year. It’s actually called an optional assignment http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4700

By Serbok

July 17, 2007 5:03 AM | Link to this

Bob, Journalist I totally agree ‘Bro, Coach needs to snort some cork The integrity of the game! The Braves “seem?” to be one of the teams that has not been accused of any nefarious ongoings? To bring in a Despot like Sosa would only undermine the quality of any future accolades that the young guy’s on this team deserve! I’m by NO means a squeaky clean guy! However I Do not condone cheating by any means!!! Lets Face it? Sosa is a cheater, So is Mcguire (sp) Palmero You guys know the list of people whom have been caught (YES CAUGHT) ~ be it be by inference or just plain observation? If I were to be in Barry Bonzo’s shoes~ I think I would really be ashamed of cheating not only myself, but The kids who look up to Azzholes like him! Hey~ I don’t have a car payment, just like bonzo~ my car’s not quite as nice? Depending on how one sleeps at night? LOL

By Serbok

July 17, 2007 5:17 AM | Link to this

Double Deuce Excellent post at 4:49 AM I often see: OH The Humanity! Posted on the blog? Beyond the Laff? It’s reality!!!!

Nice to see a post that really has Humanity so well observed!!!!!

“Blue are the life giving waters taken for granted?”

NAME that TUNE? :o)

By Bob, Journalist

July 17, 2007 6:08 AM | Link to this

Coach, I initially shared your view regarding Scott, primarily because of the “90 day in a season, 4th year exception rule” which prompted my question as to when Scott was first added to the roster because I thought he was added in 2004. I don’t remember David’s exact response but I believe that Thorman was added to the 40 man Roster in November, 2003.

I assume that would mean that Scott was on the roster for all of 2004-6 that is, 3 complete years.

Since November is during the off season, there may be some question as to which season you should assign/associate his being added to the roster.

If, the answer is the 2003 season, then he would qualify under the exception and be given 4 option years … but, 2007 would then be his 5th year … so he would be out of options.

If, the answer is the 2004 season, then he would not qualify as an exception and would be given 3 option years … and 2007 would be his 4th year … so he would be out of options.

Either way, methinks … he’s out of options!

Salty

Were you to have been Lot’s wife, just think how famous you’d be and all the stories you could tell!

Actually, I changed it to salt water because I didn’t want anybody getting confused … I had initially put Nacly but didn’t want to chance your missing it … and then, myself, missed your response!

By Gil in Mechanicsville

July 17, 2007 6:15 AM | Link to this

Good morning everyone, Yes, it was a rough night for Braves pitching early but all in all no so bad. At least we had an opportunity to see Devine and Ascinao. They did not look all that bad. A ray of sunshine perhaps.

Let’s hope Jo Jo has a better night than is first turn last week. I don’t expect a shutout but keeping the Reds to three runs should do the trick.

By Coach (I'm only right 90% of the time)

July 17, 2007 6:22 AM | Link to this

Bob , you guys would argue with a frigging stop sign. November 2003 was after the 2003 season was over or didn’t you know that ? 1st option 2004 , second option 2005 , third option 2006 , fourth option 2007. How many time dear children do I need to explain this history lesson ? O yea , Nov. 03 to Nov. 07 is four calender years or did Bob invent some new math I am unaware of ?

By Gil in Mechanicsville

July 17, 2007 6:29 AM | Link to this

Good morning BobJ, You were fortunate if you were unable to watch last night debacle. It was possible one of the worst games I have seen the Braves play for quite a while.

Escobar may add offense but he is no defensive wizard at second. Of course other than Andruw’s defensive gem in the first and Frenchy’s assist in the fifth it was a real “Bad News Bears” kind of night.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

July 17, 2007 6:38 AM | Link to this

Coach (I’m only right 90% of the time)

Perhaps you should e-mail your interpretation of the rule to the Braves’ front office. I honestly feel the Braves would send Thorman down if they felt they could. However, even when you are right sometimes it does not make any difference if the powers that be say you are not.

At this point Scott may be playing himself to the point he might just clear waivers.

By Bob, Journalist

July 17, 2007 6:46 AM | Link to this

Serbok we have an interesting system of justice … folks who try to kill you but fail due to incompetence are treated differently than those who succeed … it’s a strange world in which we live.

Gil, my biggest disappointment … following Kyle, was Edgar hitting to the shortstop in the first.

Hopefully, Frenchy will at least consider the possibly that he might have gotten the call had the umpire thought he had a clue with regard to the strike zone.

Watching Frenchy attempt to hit to right is encouraging and has been somewhat productive … but it’s painful to watch and has been far less effective than it might … why is he getting no instruction in a better approach for so doing?

By Bob, Journalist

July 17, 2007 6:53 AM | Link to this

Coach, please reread my post … if you count 2004 as his first season on the roster and he’s on it for more than 90 days during that season, he wouldn’t be eligible for the 4th year.

I ask you, was Scott on the 40 man roster for more than 90 days during the 2004 season?

By Bob, Journalist

July 17, 2007 7:00 AM | Link to this

Coach, one point I think you’re missing … nobody wants you to be wrong … we all wish that you were right!

By Josh C

July 17, 2007 7:13 AM | Link to this

In order to qualify for a fourth option year a player must not have been up longer than 90 days in ANY of the first three season. If he is up for 91 days in any one season the fourth option year is toast. Thus, Thorman is out of options. Can’t wait to hear how I’m the idiot now…

By Bob, Journalist

July 17, 2007 7:24 AM | Link to this

Josh C, do you have the actual language? The only thing I’ve actually seen related … or so I thought … to being on the 40 day roster rather than the active 25 man, or even the expanded roster at the end of the season … your “been up” suggests otherwise.

By Paladin

July 17, 2007 7:53 AM | Link to this

BobJ Unlike many, no—most, folks on here, I don’t always agree with you. I know—I’m a heretic.

But, for what it is worth—coming from me—I totally agree with your 7:00AM post. We don’twish that Coach(of a 1000 names)to be wrong.

I personally think Thorman has a great deal of potential and I wish that he could be sent down(by the Braves)to get more seasoning, ‘cause he is in over his head in the bigs. But, I believe DOB—and others—that it can’t happen.

Good point, anyway.

By Options Question Answered

July 17, 2007 7:53 AM | Link to this

You guys can read and try to interpret the rules regarding options all you want. Me? I figure I’ll do it the easy way.

DOB is the beat writer for the Atlanta Braves. That puts him in direct contact with Braves management and players.

Braves management handles all things regarding Braves personel matters 24-7 365. I’m quite certain they don’t go out and hire some ex-Walmart assistant store managers to handle the job. The people who work for the Braves probably have a clue as to what the roster status is of their players.

Player movement is a huge part of what they deal with. I have a suspicion that they know what they heck they are talking about in terms of who has options left and who does not.

DOB, being in direct contact on a daily basis with Braves management, says the Thorman is out of options.

Maybe some of you guys should give your contact information to DOB so he can forward it to the Braves front office. I’m sure they would love to get in touch so they can learn what they are missing that gives Thorman another option.

By ssiscribe

July 17, 2007 8:00 AM | Link to this

How to explain what has happened to Kyle Davies?

Monday’s train wreck of an outing — five hitters, 22 pitches, two runs and a cascade of shaking heads — is the latest turn in the up-again, down-again saga of the pride of Stockbridge.

Davies entered Monday’s outing against the Reds at Turner Field off one of his best starts of the season, a four-hit, one-run performance on national TV at San Diego. That followed a two-inning, five-run flop at Los Angeles. That followed a three-hit, six-strikeout performance against Detroit.

Then came Monday. Downturn time.

All season, we’ve watched Davies pitch and, for the most part, I think Braves Nation has wanted the young righty to succeed. Two years ago, he dazzled the Red Sox in the rain in Fenway during his major-league debut, won two of his first four starts and finished with seven wins. He was one of the Baby Braves, one of the Atlanta-bred products who helped will the Braves to the NL East title.

Two years later, Davies is periously close to demotion to Triple-A Richmond. He would’ve landed there to start the season had Lance Cormier not hurt himself in his final spring training start. The wisdom at the time was to let Davies find his rhythm at Richmond, in front of a few thousand fans, away from the glare of the big-league team.

His 2006 was a disaster between a groin injury and horrible pitching, both of which teamed to destroy his confidence. When Cormier went down in late March, Davies stayed up and thus, the roller-coaster ride began for all to see.

But Monday has to be the bottoming-out point. Bobby Cox, normally a shield between the criticizing public and the inhabitants of the Braves’ locker room, was blunt in assessing Davies after the Dodgers’ debacle. Monday, he waited all of five batters before yanking Davies, who did not retire a batter in the shortest start (not cut short by injury) by a Braves’ starter since Len Barker in 1985.

And so, with the pennant race heating up, the Braves face a tough decision. There is no doubt Davies, when he’s on, can be a huge boost to the back end of the rotation. But when you’re a game and a half out of first place in mid-July, when one of your starters is poised to come off the disabled list, and when the worst team in baseball knocks your struggling starter out before the late-arriving fans have made it to their seats, the options are limited.

Davies still can help this team win the NL East this season. But for now, after Monday, the time has come. How to explain what has happened to Kyle Davies? Time to stop asking questions and start finding answers, and the place to do it is Richmond.

The Scribe abides.

—30—

By Salty

July 17, 2007 8:30 AM | Link to this

Bob, Journalist I appreciate you putting my name in bold. I can’t do a search because, well…there’s lots of Salty references, but, alas, they’re seldom about me (‘cept when I want to be really delusional!). Crafty use of chemistry in a blog-setting…sounds like an ESPY category!

By Paladin

July 17, 2007 8:33 AM | Link to this

Grinch Reading through last night’s posts, you got off some great lines. Even after-the-fact they are ROFLS! Good work, my friend, good work!

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 8:37 AM | Link to this

Yes, to every rule is an exception I would suppose. Just more often than not it has been my personal observation that young teams fold under pressure faster and tend to have longer losing streaks. This is not an absolute, just an observation.

I’m not sure if young teams fold “more often than not.” I would guess they do not. I would guess that talent matters most, much more than age or experience.

To say “more often than not,” I think you have to look at a lot of teams to see if young ones are more likely to fold than any other ones. I haven’t done the research so I don’t know for sure. But my guess is that they don’t fold under pressure more or less than any other team.

My guess is observation won’t give you an age or an average age unless you’ve memorized the ages of a substantial number of teams throughout baseball history.

By scoff

July 17, 2007 8:46 AM | Link to this

Do you think there is any possible way to get Snell through the Pirates without giving up salty?

• Davies, Thorman or Woodward, and a prospect(Lillbridge or Brandon Jones)

Would that be beneficial to the braves to give up these players for Snell?

By Hammer'd The Braves

July 17, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this

Is it possible you guys are still arguing over Thorman’s options? Or is that just a weekly subject?

It is indeed possible for a player to have a fourth option year, if the player has already used all three options (Thorman has), AND if the player has less than five full seasons of professional, NOT ML, experience. DL time does not count towards this clock. I know Thorman spent some time on the DL in the minors, but don’t know how much. To sweeten the pot, the rules for counting service time for this is different from the rules counting service time for something like Rule 5 eligibility.

Bottom line, it’s highly unlikely that Thorman has less than five years professional experience, but you guys can look it up if you want. He’s had three optional assignment years, for sure (2004, 2005, 2006). So even without the beat writer stating the case emphatically, I would suggest the guy has no options left.

By Metropolitan Man

July 17, 2007 8:58 AM | Link to this

Posted in a previous blog:

Morning all, gotta question for DOB. The one thing all of us bloggers have in common is we love baseball. Any thought to getting a braves bloggers softball game going. You guys have enough bloggers to form a team if they are locals. Heck, with us METS fans on this blog you might even have enough to get a league or have at least a rivalry team which is always good sport. Its just a thought since every one here is MLB caliber, we can then take our frusrtations about our respective clubs to the field of battle. If people dont want to play we still need ballboys, batboys,hecklers, umpires,ect…. I’m already playing softball on Mondays so even if this dont happen, hit me up if you trying to get into the game. The fall season begins next month, dont let the braves players being the only ones enjoying the summer, get form behind those screens and make a play!!!

By Paladin

July 17, 2007 9:01 AM | Link to this

scoff Despite Woodward’s better-than-average(better than his average, anyway)performance over the weekend, I don’t think anyone is going to take him—even as a “throw in”. IMO.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this

Bob, Journalist,

Let me rephrase my argument as to not offend any sensibilities.

I don’t think Bob Gibson and Warren Spahn were necessarily any tougher or more “manly” than the best pitchers of today. I don’t think we can chalk more complete games in the past to more toughness and manliness or whatever.

I think there are less complete games because offense is better (especially in traditionally weak-hitting positions), rule changes that favor hitters and the people that have control are smarter when it comes to how long a pitcher can or should go.

On that last point, of the pitchers in the top 100 in single season complete games who made the list in their early 20’s (under 25) only a few that I’ve found pitched past their early 30’s. A lot of them didn’t make it into their 30’s pitching in the big leagues.

You can look for yourself. Here BaseballReference.com lists the all-time CG leaders for single seasons along with the pitchers’ ages in which they totaled all those CG.

By David-ATL14

July 17, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this

The old ball coach- hard headed completely wrong and the lack of decorum to actually be proud of it.

A rather sad individual, to be pitied upon further reflection.

By Paladin

July 17, 2007 9:06 AM | Link to this

MetroMan Can I be the manager? I can pick my nose with the best of ‘em. :-)

By Bob, Journalist

July 17, 2007 9:09 AM | Link to this

Options Question Answered, there are few who question David O’Bs knowledge or information and most generally accept it for what it is. Those who have no further interest can, and usually do exactly that and move to other areas of interest.

However, the fact that others have an interest in knowing more than the simple answer to the “options” question shouldn’t suggest that they doubt the competence of those charged with the responsibility of interpretation of the rules … for many are simply seeking a better understanding.

Coach seems to be the only clinging to the minority opinion regarding the Braves’ options with regard to Scott. He’s done his homework but that doesn’t mean he’ll get an “A” on his report card. However, the fact that the experts have a different opinion doesn’t mean that his conclusion is wrong … and should it be right, that wouldn’t mean that the experts were incompetent.

Methinks Coach is obstinate and frequently reaches wrong conclusions … he may have more difficulty than others and be less than deft in accepting defeat or gracefully withdrawing … but we all suffer from the same disease when we are passionately convinced that we’re in the right.

I would rather folks defend their positions for as long as they honestly believes in them, than to abandon their post when challenged … so long as they keep an open mind and modify their positions should they find they have erred.

Coach sometimes makes it difficult to believe that he so does, but again, it’s a disease from which we all seem to suffer.

By Metropolitan Man

July 17, 2007 9:10 AM | Link to this

Man, how can fans of both teams still be talkng so much smack. Both teams are sucking and its humbling. I cant take satisfaction in anyones struggles because the METS have been playing dissapointing baseball for nearly 2 months. The only consulation is being in 1st but if they dont finish there then it doens’t matter. I’m trying not to lose my cool with my squad but they are so depressing lately and to still be in 1st should be a humbling experience for the braves as well!!! Keep it in perspective, it may be a pennant race but the entrants are sucking now. Lets go METS…ASAP!!!!

By bigdaddy

July 17, 2007 9:12 AM | Link to this

Sport World, one of those pulp baseball magazines one could find at seedy newsstands in the ‘60’s, summed up the KC A’s 1964 season by stating, “The pitching was sorry with only 17 complete games, an all-time major-league low.” An interesting comment considering the present state of affairs, right?

The Cox/Mazzone point about protecting players’ arms is well taken. But it annoys me no end when a pitcher doing the job (like Carlyle most recently) gets pulled—and it’s a further annoyance if the relief pitcher proceeds to give up a pile of runs!

Regarding trades to improve the pitching: be cautious. It would be like the Braves front office of the 70’s and 80’s to develop a home-area star like Frenchy, then trade him away. Frenchy, Salty, and Yuni CAN’T GO!!!

By Metropolitan Man

July 17, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this

Paladin: You can be a Manager, GM, whatever right now, just trying to garner some interest. I think it would take this blog and bloggers to the next level. No more computer screen hinding, we can all blog, play ball, and then vent about it. We need something to do from OCT to APR. besides beating on each other with no clear winner.

By DAP

July 17, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this

well, the braves got humbled by the worst team in the league last night. hopefully they will come back today with a vengence. its all kyle davies fault. well, not really, there were the errors, and the homeruns given up, and all the men left on base…. but its still kyle davies fault.

still, and this will sound stupid to some of you, id give him one more start.

By the real journalist jimmy smith

July 17, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this

this from journalist bob …

“hopefully, frenchy will at least consider the possibly (sic) that he might have gotten the call had the umpire thought he had a clue with regard to the strike zone.”

oh, the wisdom in that pronouncement! hard to make a credible argument that frenchy knows balls and strikes when frenchy swings at tosses to the umpire for a new ball.

and now, the new handle in evidence today: “the real journalist jimmy smith”. journalist has done this to help bloggers identify jimmy smith’s posts as authentic posts of jimmy smith. since the return of the ugly stinky blogger, posts have appeared using journalist jimmy smith’s name - and those posts were not from jimmy smith at all! imagine this! and on an ajc.com blog!

and the loss of the southern jackass will be felt by all. jackass had some rough edges but became a good contributor over time and jackass holds no reverence for opinion not well founded. like that in a jackass.

and journalist will miss the delightful banter between jackass and ron roberts - blog charter members.

pick up stinky, lose jackass. like picking up woodward, losing renteria.

now, baseball … what is the problem with kyle davies? easy to spot. not one of bobby cox’s favorites. either a favorite, or not. davies is not. may not be able to climb off that rock. lerew didn’t. bobby can pick ‘em (oh, the humanity!) but bobby didn’t pick kyle as a favorite. no nickname. only “kid”. somebody else’s kid. journalist is now feeling sorry for kyle davies. and what might change matters? a well-pitched game some say? nah, it will take more. much more. chino cadahia has the details but probably not at liberty to discuss. had it written down on a slip of paper but probably lost in the pocket of chino cadahia’s pants by now.

and did laroche cut the underpants of chino cadahia? oh, the humanity!

and why was it the old journalist that broke the underpants story? does dob not do underpants journalism? beat writer, right? all the news of the team, right? including underpants? or not including underpants. not being critical, just asking.

“and chipper was placed on the d.l. today suffering from crotchless underpants . . .”

and robert and grinch together at the braves game. this is a nice thought. buy bobby a beer? and baby seal did not like the comparison to wicky. grinch is so advised.

now, long post but journalist will not be posting as much now. bloggers are asked to be cautious when reading a journalist jimmy smith post from now on … may not be authentic unless secret code in handle can be determined.

toes are not to be trifled with.

By Paladin

July 17, 2007 9:23 AM | Link to this

MetroMan Why shouldn’t we be talking smack? Who else has Jabba the Hut as their “closer”?

By Coach ( Not Drinking The Kool Aid)

July 17, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this

O’Brien is wrong and he didn’t get any information from the Braves front office , I’m right and I know I’m right. Th rule clearly states that a player is eligible for a fourth option year if he has been optioned in three seasons and does not yet have five full seasons of professional experience. Thorman was optioned 2004-2005-2006 , 2007 will be his fifth full pro season thereby making him eligible for a fourth option year(2007). I’m right about this and I know I’m right. If I had a million bucks to bet against everybody else in the blog , you would all be broke.

By journalist jimmy smith

July 17, 2007 9:27 AM | Link to this

grinch and robert: all-you-can-eat seats last night? wicky family close-by?

By The Grinch

July 17, 2007 9:31 AM | Link to this

MetroMan, agreed. It’s like watching two cartoon characters trying to hand each other a lit stick of dynamite, then getting confused and trying to grab it back from each other. Whichever one of us winds up winning that bet ought to spend it on consolation beer for the both of us; one for losing such a winnable pennant race and the other for getting swept in the 1st round by whoever they play. That, of course, it just how it looks now. I expect both teams to pick it up before too long, big deadline trade or no. Here’s to my team picking it up first. :-)

Paladin, thanks for noticing (hands him the promised 20 bucks).

Schultz tore Davies such a big new one I won’t even bother this morning. Even Cox checked him after the game. When Cox is insulting you post game and you’re the one going “I’m not worried, it was only one bad pitch” things just might not be going your way.

Off to the gym.

By ryan bauer

July 17, 2007 9:31 AM | Link to this

Dear Mets Drool- I just wanted to congratulate you on being an a$$ Hat, nice job last night.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 9:31 AM | Link to this

chrisklob,

Just read the Rosenthal’s piece.

I do think the right deal is out their for Teixeira. I’m guessing the Rangers have a lot to sort through and they want to wait and get as many teams as desperate as possible. And I’m guessing a lot of teams have to sort through their prospects which is why the Rangers and the other teams involved are in no hurry.

By Options Question Answered

July 17, 2007 9:36 AM | Link to this

That’s what is so entertaining about this blog. Even when the King is walking around naked, he still won’t admit he’s naked.

By BossLady

July 17, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this

Davies, Umpires, Bobby Cox, Oscar whatever? These guys left the bases loaded so many times and we could have won had anyone of them tried to take some pitches, work the count. All these first pitch swinging for the fences is ridiculous. Reds brought in a reliever and our batters gave him a 4 pitch inning. How about Chipper with the 14 pitch walk. He didn’t get anything to hit but he wore down the pitcher and saw all his pitches. A great hitter in Braves history is Ron Gant, a control hitter. Hit the ball where it is needed not where you want it. The long ball is terrific and chicks do love it, but damn bases loaded mutliple times once with 0 outs and not push any runs across the plate is sickening. The Reds did not win this game the Braves just lost the game. I don’t care who pitches, whose traded, whose shuffled around I just want to see a major league team play the game the way it should be played. Now, GO BRAVES!!!!!!

By Paladin

July 17, 2007 9:39 AM | Link to this

MetroMan Actually, I can do an even better impersonation of BC. What with my gut hanging over my belt, and my Capt Ahab-walkin-the-deck-in-heavy-seas gait when I walk to the mound to wield the hook. The big difference is that I will wield the hook—before Armageddon sets in.

As for playing: My playing days are over ‘less we get up a golden oldsters entry.

By Metropolitan Man

July 17, 2007 9:40 AM | Link to this

Pauldin: At least your closer it getting multiple opportunuties a week.

By Efrim

July 17, 2007 9:40 AM | Link to this

So if Kyle Davies pitches a decent game against the Cardinals, are we suppose to not explore better options out there? I really don’t think Jason Jennings should cost that much. He should be the guy we go after because he is a true 2 month rental.

By CMC

July 17, 2007 9:42 AM | Link to this

DOB,

Heard you on the radio this morning discussing one of my favorite topics: BBQ. I am a BBQ fanatic as well. I was born and raised in South Georgia, about an hour south of Columbus. Where my parents still live, there is a hole-in-the-wall BBQ joint called The Piget. Concrete floor and two picnic tables on the inside, no windows. You’d never pull off the road and eat there if not for word of mouth. But they have the best BBQ I have ever eaten. They use only hams smoked to perfection. Never had a trace of fat or gristle in a sandwich because they clean it all off before chipping or slicing the meat. Sauce is homemade vinegar base just like you prefer and is served on the side. If you order a pound of BBQ, you get twice as much sauce as you will need. So you save that for later. Let me know if you’re ever headed for Talahassee via Columbus and I will give you directions. It’s right on the way and worth a stop.

You mentioned Smith’s and another place in Atlanta (didn’t catch the name) for good BBQ. Give me your Top 5 when you have time.

By Efrim

July 17, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

I think the Braves need help in a few areas to make sure they win the division:

1) Starting Pitcher- Jason Jennings. I would rather deal for Jennings and have him for 2 months than be on the hook for next year with Matt Morris.

2) Middle Reliever- Octavio Dotel. Soriano and Yates could use someone else to help. We don’t want tired arms in September.

3) Right handed Bat- Kevin Millar. I think we can get by without making a trade like this. Woodward has to go, but improving the pitching staff is more important than the bench.

One of these moves will happen. Hoping it is one of the first two. I will be very dissapointed in JS if he gets nothing done.

By flange1

July 17, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

Morning All,

Nasty game last night? I hear all of these Glavine/Davies comparisons, but I think it should be Smoltz/Davies comparisons. If you remember when Smoltz came up, he had some problems winning. He and the Braves hires a sports psycologist named Dr. Jack Lewellen to help Smoltz. Remeber he would sit between the plate and the 1B dugout in a red shirt?

Maybe this is what young Kyle needs is someone to help him focus and be in more control of himself. Heck it couldn’t hurt!

I for one think a trade is going to happen sooner rather than later.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this

Coach ( Not Drinking The Kool Aid),

If a player is on the 40-man roster and not on the active 25-man roster for any part of more than three seasons, he is out of options.

According to MLB.com, the Braves purchased Thorman’s contract in November 2003, which I’m assuming means he was placed on the 40-man roster then.

By Salty

July 17, 2007 9:53 AM | Link to this

Efrim I’m guessing Davie’s next appearance will be from the pen, not a start…if he even lasts that long. The kid was absolutely shell-shocked last night. He has the look of one who is facing, not just the batter, but the next 2-3 hitters. Kyle, it’s baseball, not chess!

By Arkansas Hillbilly

July 17, 2007 9:55 AM | Link to this

Bobby’s been indulging him about 15 starts too long and tonight he finally crushed the rabbit.

Grinch, you were in all-star form lastnight. Nice work.

FlBravesGirl, Thanks for the free-preview heads up. You made my week. Now I’ve gotta decide which is more important this week. The Godfather Trilogy, Goodfellas, and The Untouchables all on AMC, or the Braves vs. Reds and Cardinals….hmmmmm?

By Amber

July 17, 2007 9:56 AM | Link to this

Does anyone else find it very strange that Bobby didn’t get ejected after Francoeur did? Doesn’t it usually follow that he does by sticking up for his players? Methinks the “record” is mellowing him some. Shame, that would have been worthy of a good ear-blazing. Where the #$)@&$% was that strike zone anyway? I’m surprised anybody got walked last night.

By Bob, Journalist

July 17, 2007 9:57 AM | Link to this

Shaun, When I rephrase my arguments as to not offend any sensibilities, I generally do … usually my own.

I do sincerely appreciate the post and the link.

That we have different perspectives is to be expected … but, so long as you enjoy the game … you and the game will be just fine!

If you really want to put the statistics to good use, I suggest that you look for the illogical, the exceptions to the rule … then determine what makes them exceptions … for only the exceptions have the potential for being exceptional.

It’s our differences that make us special … it’s the illogical and exceptions to the rule … that’s where you’ll find the hidden treasure!

I don’t question your “of the pitchers in the top 100 in single season complete games who made the list in their early 20’s (under 25) only a few that I’ve found pitched past their early 30’s. A lot of them didn’t make it into their 30’s pitching in the big leagues” but, it’s of little interest or value to me because it’s logical and expected.

I would think you would be more interested in the few who did successfully pitch past their early thirties … what made them special … the exceptions??

We just have a different perspective … but that’s logical and to be expected.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 9:58 AM | Link to this

Coach ( Not Drinking The Kool Aid),

Here are two sources that might help you out. Scroll down to “options.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MajorLeagueBaseball_transactions

http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/transanctionsprimer.html

From the espn.com piece:

“the player must be added to the 40-man roster when his contract is purchased, which often necessitates dropping another player from the 40-man roster, whether by release or trade.”

Also from the espn.com piece:

“When you hear that a player is “out of options,” that means he’s been on the 40-man roster during three different seasons, beginning with his fourth as a pro, and to be sent down again he’ll have to clear waivers (more on those below).”

From MLB.com:

“11/20/03 - The Braves purchased the contract of shortstop Tony Pena and first baseman Scott Thorman from Class A Myrtle Beach.”

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 10:02 AM | Link to this

Coach ( Not Drinking The Kool Aid),

You see, Thorman was on the 40-man but not the 25-man in 2003, 2004, 2005 and parts of 2006; more than three seasons which means he’s out of options.

By Rodger

July 17, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

Check me on this, going back to an early discussion on “irony”, but isn’t it ironic that when we question why a Brave’s pitcher cannot record 27 outs, we get a performance where they can’t get 1?

I, too, would give Davies another try, but I think the handwriting is on the wall he won’t get it.

By aefwb

July 17, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this

Do you reckon Davies will be hanging insulation pretty soon???

By Gil in Mechanicsville

July 17, 2007 10:09 AM | Link to this

Coach ( Not Drinking The Kool Aid) You are arguing with the wrong people!!!!!!

Shaun I am not going to lose any sleep over my point about young teams verses those who are more balanced and seasoned. Yes, talent is important and a good young team can beat a bad team of veterans. However, conventional wisdom is to try not to play more than one rookie at a time if you want to vie for a pennant.

With the watered down version of baseball today, perhaps it is no longer possible to play veterans at all positions.

Today’s free agent market has changed the face of baseball for better or worse. However, one should understand that years ago many players who today are in the majors leagues would not have advanced past AA ball because their were too many good players ahead of them and they could not sign with another team.

That said, the Braves are still a very young ball club. That said they have a bright future. Perhaps more so than their present. An astute trade could be the deal maker this year. I doubt though any other team really wants to help the Braves all that much.

Okay, I am going to take a break and go for a swim. You can tell me I’m all wet later….

By DAP

July 17, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

uga_dawg francour an average offensive player? the boy strikes out alot, but in what has basically been two major league seaons, he has 53 HR, 209 RBIs and 65 doubles with a .276 AVG. after what his average did last year, thats respctable, and these nuymbers average to a 27 HR, 33 double, 105 RBI season, which is not average. his OBP, yes, average, but just some names of guys hes better than this year as far as OBP shawn green, brandon phillips, mike cameron, freddie sanchez, dan uggla, brian mccann, jhonny estrada, craig biggio, and many more. there are some pretty good offensive players in there.

francour is 23 years old. he will be fine.

By Ron Roberts

July 17, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this

The sheer arrogance Coach… you mean to tell me that you’re right about Thorman’s options, and DO’B, John Schuerholz and his brain trust are all wrong?

Because don’t ya think they’d have sent the kid down by now if they could’ve??? Dude, let it go. You were wrong; that, in and of itself isn’t such a big deal. That you’re a pompass arrogant @ss to people about it is what makes you’re being wrong all the more embarrassing for yourself.

I got no beef with you; never have, that I can recall, before you stuck your foot in your mouth and started to pick fights with myself and anybody else who believed you were incorrect about Thorman’s options. Remember, Coach, you attacked first.

Let it go. Thorman’s ours til we get up the nerve to try and pass him through the waiver wire. Heck, who knows? We might’ve already tried it, for all we know.

By s t i n k y

July 17, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this

the braves letting pitchers off the hook by swinging at first pitches is a sgnature foible. it goes all the way back to when cox managed the braves the first time.

By Bob, Journalist

July 17, 2007 10:15 AM | Link to this

Nacly, it is chess, mon ami! That’s the primary difference between the pitcher and the thrower … but, chess is not an easy game to master and Kyle may not be up to the task.

There are many players who think many moves ahead that find their King Captured because they weren’t paying enough attention to the current one.

I will agree that most of Kyle’s problems seem to be above the neck rather than below … on days that he’s not pitching, maybe Buddy Carlyle, another BC, should be required to work with the young pitchers.

By Wayne in Utah

July 17, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

I think I am out of options!

By Efrim

July 17, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this

I’ve said it before and I will say it again. Davies is soft. He has no composure on the mound. He is the complete opposite of Chien Meng Wang. Young pitcher with composure in Wang, Davies is the polar opposite. It is sad, because I think Davies has the stuff to be a good pitcher. He will probably perform better with another club, but it just isn’t going to happen with Atlanta.

I think Reyes won’t pitch a good game tonight, so Davies will get that start Sunday night against the Cards. But if the Braves are as frustrated as I am with Kyle, they should make a trade for a starting pitcher.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this

Gil in Mechanicsville,

You really think baseball is watered down?

In almost every sport or competition, athletes are bigger, stronger, faster. High school girls swim teams could go back to the early 1900’s and shatter the world records of those days.

My guess is there are more quality baseball players than ever before and the filtering system for finding players and putting them in the majors is better than ever before.

As I’ve mentioned before, players peak around 26-28. My guess is things like ability to hit, pitch, catch the ball, control the strikezone matter most. After that, we’d expect teams with the most 26-28-year olds to win most often given teams ability to hit, pitch catch, etc. are roughly equal.

It’s not good to play a bunch of rookies because they are probably in their early to mid 20’s, unless you have a lot of exceptional players in that age range. But it’s also not good to play a bunch of 30-plus year old vets, unless you have a lot of exceptional players in that age range.

Of course, this is just theory based on some research. I haven’t read any research on the specific subject of age and team performance.

By some guy

July 17, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this

Doesn’t surprise me about the complete games, but am I the only one to notice that the Braves also have yet to hit a grand slam this year? Seems kinda strange to me…

By Mike in 'Fretta

July 17, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

Well, it looks like the Braves are ready to lose the next 2-3 games. I mean isn’t that the way it goes with this team…look great for a 4-5 game stretch and then for as good as we looked during that stretch turn it around and look completely pathetic for 4-5 games…follow that by a mediocre stretch of .500 ball and then repeat.

I really don’t understand this team. About the only thing I do understand is that Kyle Davies sucks! I don’t care where he is from, hell I wouldn’t even care if he was my brother that guy sucks! Enough already with him, what more could BC possibly be waiting to see out of him?

By ernesto

July 17, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this

Not saying we’d ever do this, but what’s the rule on a 10/5 guy who gets claimed on waivers?

Can he veto getting claimed off waivers?

Once again, not that we ever would, but theoretically, do waivers trump 10/5 power?

By Salty

July 17, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this

Bob, Journalist There are many players who think many moves ahead that find their King Captured because they weren’t paying enough attention to the current one. We agree…it’s beginner ‘chess’, at best. My point, don’t worry about who’s on deck; Smoltz can; Davie’s isn’t there yet. Whatever got him to the bigs, he’s forgotten…Frenchy implied as much.

I may have missed a pitch or three by him last night, but did he throw a curve? That’s what set San Diego up…he threw a few, which made the fastball effective…even out of the zone. Last night, I don’t believe he ever really thought he could throw a strike…which gives rise to thinking he’ll feel the same his next start.

By comparison, Carlyle lived by the fastball…but never in the same spot, or speed. He trusted what his best pitch is, and went from there. Isn’t Kyle capable of similar ‘heat’? More to the point, does Kyle think he’s capable of similar?

I like the kid, and disagree with throwing 23 year-olds away, but he needs a break/change of scenery.

By Bob, Journalist

July 17, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

Coach, as an aside, I probably have invented some math of which you haven’t heard … or at least some theorems bearing my name.

It wasn’t my intent to comment further on the subject but in answer to your post … “if indeed the rule clearly states that a player is eligible for a fourth option year if he has been optioned in three seasons and does not yet have five full seasons of professional experience” then I would suggest that the option exception would probably not apply since Scott’s professional experience began in 2000 when he played in the Rookie League, moving to Class A in 2002.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

Efrim,

I think the problem is Davies fastball is too straight. I think he needs another pitch, maybe a splitter or a sinker or a cutter. Or he needs confidence in his other pitches.

With two strikes Davies still throws 58 percent fastballs. He throws the fastball 65 percent of the time. Unless you have amazing sink or a great cutter, you can’t get by on mostly fastballs.

Hudson relies on the fastball a lot (68 percent of the time) but he gets great movement on it.

I do NOT think Davies is a head case. He just needs some refining with when to throw what pitches and maybe needs to develop one more pitch.

By SNIPER-69

July 17, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

The Braves missed another chance to get closer to the Mets lead. Their window of opportunity is closing quick. Alou is should be back by the end of the week and Pedro by the end of the month. As I predicted yesterday, I don’t think Shawn Green will be a Met by the trading deadline. Just a hunch. If the Braves don’t catch the Mets by the end of the month they don’t have a chance to win the division. The return of Alou, Pedro and possibly Duaner Sanchez (By Sept) will be a big boost for the team. This doesn’t even consider a trade for an impact player…….

By Paladin

July 17, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

“I’m a D-bag in N’Yawk” Fuge!? Now, you know how CL-jjs-et al hate it when we talk dirty. :-) But, while I am handing out kudos: The line that followed was classic. Wurlitzer quality, perhaps? Who knows, but I certainly give it a Paladin Pat-on-the back! To go with the award, a slightly-licked piece of licorice candy is in the mail.

By Paladin

July 17, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

Sniper-69

doesn’t even consider a trade for an impact player…….

Here, impact this.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

ernesto,

I’m guessing if a 10/5 guy is placed on waivers, and if a team claims him and his current team does nothing the claiming teams gets that player and his contract.

I’m guessing if the guy is claimed and the teams work out a trade, the 10/5 guy must approve the trade.

By Hammer'd The Braves

July 17, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

Just as an aside, and because I think the whole Thorman options thing is hilarious, short-season leagues do not count in determining service time under the fourth-option-year rules.

I think MLB could have made the whole thing more confusing had they tried, but maybe not.

By Renegator

July 17, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

What sucks about this Braves team is that when they get down big (5 runs or more) they give up. This happens frequently with guys like Davies who can easily give up 5 runs in the 1st or 2nd inning. Once the Braves are down big - they stop hitting. Look at how many wasted opportunities they had last night. Bases loaded, what, three times and only got in two runs. One time they had no outs and they got no runs in. It was sad.

Did anyone see the Cleveland/White Sox game? Cleveland was down 11-2 and charged back to lose 11-10. Where is that fight in this Braves team?

By Efrim

July 17, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

Shaun

I have said it for a while. Davies doesn’t throw a 2 seam fastball and it kills him. He doesn’t possess the command you need for a four seam fastball for it to be effective.

I don’t think he is a head case either, but he is soft. When things go wrong they snowball on him. He just doesn’t have the ability to make the big pitch.

I think the Braves will give him another start on Sunday, but if he fails again there, it will be his last in a Braves uniform. I really think they will include him in a deal for a starter, reliever or right handed bat.

The Royals are asking for way too much for Dotel, but that asking price will come down. Maybe Davies and a lesser prospect like RHP James Parr will be enough to net Dotel. Did you guys see what Dayton Moore asked the Dodgers for????

Matt Kemp, James Loney or Russell Martin.

Imagine if Moore wanted Salty for Dotel.

I hope JS would hit him with a blunt object, even if he is a former Braves front office guy.

By SNIPER-69

July 17, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this

Paladin didn’t get enough love when he/she was young. Come over here and get a hug…….

By Renegator

July 17, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

I agree with Mike in Fretta - there is a good chance the Braves look like this for the next 4 to 5 games. That is how their season has gone. Look great for a stretch - then turn around and look horrible for a stretch.

By Salty

July 17, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this

Renegator If they gave up last night…how did the bases get loaded so often? Wasted opportunities, sure…give up…not hardly. The Cincy pitchers did just enough to escape real damage…fact is, they walked a tightrope all night. That’s baseball…and one game at that.

By Bob, Journalist

July 17, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this

Salty, your original post was really on spot … in trying to be a pitcher, methinks Kyle has forgotten how to be a thrower … they’re not really mutually exclusive.

For his own sake as well as ours, methinks Kyle should not be allowed/forced to pitch … option him to Class A and get him a personal coach … he appears to be a head case and seven/eighths.

I say let Scott and Salty go before a judge and legally switch names … then option “Salty” … they both play first base so who’s to know?

By ernesto

July 17, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this

Shaun, yup, that’s what I thought too.

So theoretically you could unload a guy’s salary, even a 10/5 guy, if he’s still desirable.

By tkg

July 17, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

As pitching-starved as the Royals are as an organization they would take Davies and another pitching prospect from Braves for Dotel, I would think. Davies has some talent, possibly enough to be a good No. 3 starter in the bigs. He may just need a change of scenary to realize his talent.

If the Braves could do a trade like this for Dotel, they should do it and hope to get another SP in a separate trade, a Matt Morris or Jose Contreras type, probably.

By Efrim

July 17, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

Renegator,

That is baseball man. You’re only as good as the next day’s starting pitching matchups. Arroyo versus Reyes favors the Reds. That is why its important to have 5 quality starters. We have 4.

Make that trade JS.

By Paladin

July 17, 2007 11:31 AM | Link to this

Sniper minus 69(give or take)

Sorry, I only talk to one troll a day. I’ll put you on my waiting list.

By Baron

July 17, 2007 11:31 AM | Link to this

Does anyone know where I can find player stats for batting average with runners on base? Shaun, perhaps?

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this

Coach ( Not Drinking The Kool Aid),

From TheBaseballAnalysts.com:

The fourth option

Everyone knows that a player who is added to a 40-man roster for the first time may be sent out on optional assignment in up to three years, which are commonly referred to as “option years” or just “options.” But once in a while, a player ends up receiving a fourth option year. Here’s the text from the MLB rulebook:

“Contracts of Major League players who, prior to commencement of the current season, have been credited with less than five seasons in professional baseball … shall be eligible for a fourth optional assignment, without waivers, during that season. For purposes of this Rule 11(c), 90 days or more on the Active List during a championship season shall constitute a ‘season of service.’ … [if] a player is placed on the disabled list after the player has been credited with 60 or more days of service in any particular season, the Disabled List time shall be counted to the player’s credit.”

So what are we saying here?

A player who is currently entering his fourth or fifth pro season and already has been optioned in three separate years gets a fourth option. Delmon Young has been optioned in three years (2004, 2005, 2006) and he’ll get a fourth option in 2007, which he’s doing his best to earn.

A player who has missed one or more seasons to injury - meaning an entire season, or enough time to accrue fewer than 90 days on an active roster - may get a fourth option if, exclusive of those injury-shortened years, he has fewer than five full seasons in pro ball. A season in which he’s on an active roster for 60 days or more and then gets hurt still counts as a full season, but a season in which he’s hurt and then comes back and gets 60-89 days of service after the injury does not.

Seasons spent entirely in short-season leagues (the New-York Penn, Northwest, Pioneer, Appalachian, Gulf Coast, and Arizona Rookie Leagues, as well as the Dominican and Venezuelan Summer Leagues) don’t count as seasons for the purposes of a fourth option.

As you might imagine, more players are eligible for fourth options than you might have realized, but they often don’t come to light because the players are low-profile or because they’re kicked off of 40-man rosters before the fourth option comes into play.

So a player whose options already expired before he was optioned in three separate years doesn’t get the fourth option year.

Thorman’s options expired because he was on the 40-man and not the 25-man in more than three seasons.

By Renegator

July 17, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

Efrim:

True - tonight’s pitching matchup definitely favors the Reds. I would hate to see the Mets take 2 of 3 or 3 of 4 from the Reds and then see us losing 2 of 3.

By TexasBrave

July 17, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

Eventhough a trade is likely now that Davies imploded yesterday, he will probably get at least two more starts before he is either optioned to AAA or traded.

Like this year you usually don’t see many trades until the last few days before the trading deadline. Early on teams try and get maximum value for a trade (ie the Nats wanting Escobar and Salty for Young). I am thinking that the Braves are hoping that Davies will have a good outing so that another team might take a chance on him. But if not then they will send him down. Either way I think the Braves wait (and probably afford to do so) to make a move on Davies until closer to the deadline.

By Bill

July 17, 2007 11:45 AM | Link to this

What is wrong with some of these people? The Braves have three choices with Thorman, keep him, Trade him or release him. Go on to something different. I feel bad for Davies. He’s a ggod kid with a good arm but he’s a head case. Send him down or try to trade him.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

Baron,

espn.com has all kinds of situational stats on their stat page.

By TexasBrave

July 17, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this

This question is for anyone with the knowledge to answer it.

Lets say for the sake of argument that Thorman is out of options :) If the Braves do put him on waivers and another team claims him, must that other team place him with the major league team or can they place him in the minors?

Thanks

By Efrim

July 17, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this

I would hate to see the Mets take 2 of 3 or 3 of 4 from the Reds and then see us losing 2 of 3.

Agreed. We need to gain ground during this stretch. I want to be in first place next Monday morning. To be honest, there is no reason why we shouldn’t be. I figure they will go 3-4 this 7 game stretch, which means we will need to go 5-2. Meaning that we need to win 5 of the next 6. Should be able to accomplish that against two terrible teams. I would like to win the next two games and leave room for a loss against the Cards.

The bats will need to win us the next two games. Can’t expect much from Reyes making his second career start and Smoltz is coming off the DL.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

Efrim,

I think Davies has options (oh, no!).

I don’t know if they would give up on Davies just yet unless they can get a lot for him. I know Dotel would help but I don’t really consider Dotel a lot.

Davies is still only 23. You don’t easily give up on very young, cheap pitchers who have shown some potential unless you can get a lot in return.

If he still does have options (and best I can tell this is his last option year) I think they should send him to the minors and let him work on another pitch or work on a sinking or cut fastball.

By Lew

July 17, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

Sniper-No, If the Mets don’t put the Braves away soon, THEY don’t stand a chance of repeating. Robert-Glad you liked your Twinky. Just what was it that Grinch said? Stinky makes a good point. We need more AB’s like Chipper’s 13 pitch walk last night. Go to make those opposing pitchers work. Three times with the bases loaded and no runs scored is totally unacceptable. Hope Davies enjoys Richmond-at least Reyes can pinch hit (maybe better than Woodward). I will now admit I was wrong about something-Matt Diaz is for real and deserves the full time left field job next year. Hell, after that play he made in right last night, put him in right and move Francoeur to center when Andruw leaves-maybe KJ in left. Sorry Grinch, just not convinced that Willie can maintain. His speed and defense are good, but I just don’t think he’s for real as a hitter.

By s t i n k y

July 17, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

pitching isn’t chess. it’s poker.

By Efrim

July 17, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

Shaun

Dotel is going to cost a lot. He shouldn’t, but he will. So many teams need relievers. I really believe we need one as well, just to protect Soriano, Yates and Moylan. I would rather deal Davies than a arm in the minors. He might be a chip that nets us a starter like Jennings or Morris. I agree though, he needs another pitch. They will probably send him down.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 12:08 PM | Link to this

TexasBrave,

The team would pick up Thorman’s contract exactly as is, so he would be out of options.

By Hammer'd The Braves

July 17, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

Sorry, a fifth pitch is not what Kyle Davies needs. There’s nothing wrong with his four-seam, curve, slider, or change-up, they’re all ML-quality pitches, and the curve and change-up are plus. His arsenal is fine.

His inability to command those pitches is the problem, along with a complete lack of situational awareness and game management. No pitching coach would even consider asking him to develop another pitch as a solution to his problems. That would be throwing gas on a fire. The kid spends too much time thinking as it is.

By Efrim

July 17, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

I would rather deal Davies than Brandon Jones or Matt Harrison. Wouldn’t you? Maybe not, but I have seen enough to know that Davies doesn’t deserve another start in this rotation. 1 good start out of 5 isn’t enough for a team that wants to win 90 games.

By Bob, Journalist

July 17, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this

My posts are getting sloppy so I’m calling it a day … but, one final observation … The Esteemed Jimmy Smith, My Lady, et alia may well hate it when some talk dirty but methinks it’s the uncouth behavior of those who know not how, that bothers them the most … I can think of few things worse than inept exhibitionists, craving attention and acceptance, who flaunt their own inadequacies, their disregard for propriety and the feelings of others … unless it’s those who find it humorous for them to so do.

Selah

By TennesseePaul

July 17, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

N8: Sorry I missed your rant last night. So, let’s follow this through…
Buddy Carlyle pitches a gem. Braves are on a 4 game win streak. Your analysis after the win, if Buddy and Kyle do well we don’t need another pitcher.
Buddy is still doing well. Kyle is still hit or miss. The roster is still the same. The pitching staff is still the same. Buddy Carlyle, John Smoltz, Tim Hudson, Chuck James and Kyle Davies. The same pitchers that put us on a 4 game win streak. We lose a game and the analysis is, if we can’t win this season, we need a new pitcher now. Nothing changed, just a new day and a loss.
What do you expect Davies to be? He’s a #5 starter? He is the only one in the rotation that merits a change, but he’s the fifth guy right now. So, I’m not terribly worried. The 5th starter isn’t a factor in the post season. The 5th starter is hardly a factor in the regular season. Especially when 1-4 are guys on their game like Carlyle, Smoltz, Hudson and James. Besides, Davies does give us a win every now and then. I’m not screaming for a replacement for Davies, but if they get one, great.
Pulling in 2006 to make a point, you can’t be serious. Why stop with 2006? Scrolling up to the top of the blog, since 1876 the Braves are 20 games under .500. There it is.
I guess N8, I am missing the point. We are 1.5 games out and have a shaky fifth starter. I just don’t see the need to turn over the roster every time the team loses
I will say this though, not once this season have I complained or scolded you for being “too negative”. Not one time.

By Robert

July 17, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this

Here’s my thoughts on the issue of whether baseball is watered down

First of all, there is a depth problem. There are several teams that dont have but three or four guys who really belong in the bigs. Eliminate four teams, consolidate the talent on the rest, and the qulaity of the entire product rises

Second, tho the players are bigger, stronger, and faster, a great majority of them are fundamentally unsound

Take the Pirates on Sunday against the Braves

They let the Braves score on a wild pitch where they sunsequantly made no effort to make a play of it at the plate

They flat out pick a runner off, and then cant throw him out

They pick up a ground ball and hurl the ball three feet left of the first baseman’s mitt

I paid $25 for my ticket. Ok I got some stadium atmosphere, I got to see the Braves in uniform, I got to sit next to Grinch for nine innings, and so on, and so on. I’ll tell you this - the quality of baseball the Pirates gave me wasnt worth a nickel of that $25

By TexasBrave

July 17, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

Thanks Shaun,

Since that is the case I can’t see many teams, if any, that would be willing to add Thorman to their roster with the shape he is in. I wonder if the Braves have tried to place him on waivers or not? I mean I like the kid but he does need work, thus would it be such a bad thing if someone did pick him up. I can’t see him being a bargaining chip in a trade.

By Lee

July 17, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this

I would like to see the Braves offer Thorman and Davies for a pitcher (maybe a pinch hitter also)and see what clubs are willing to offer for these two and take it from there. Davies and Thorman may turn it around but I fully do not expect either of these guys to be playing in a World Series anytime soon based on their contributions to helping a team get there. Davies alone is going to make sure the Braves do not get to the post-season this year.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this

Efrim,

I don’t think I would give up Davies for Dotel or Morris or Jennings. Those are not the type guys that are going to make much of a difference.

Morris has been basically an average pitcher over the last four seasons.

Even when you take into account Coors into account, Jennings has basically been an average pitcher for most of his career.

Morris is 32. Jennings is 28. I don’t believe they are going to get significantly better.

And Dotel hasn’t thrown over 15.3 innings in a season since 2004.

Not saying I would mind having one of those guys but I don’t think any of those guys are worth giving up that much for.

I agree the Braves could use another reliever and another starter. But I don’t think they give up Davies for an only slightly above average pitcher, at best, that is older and fairly expensive. And I don’t think another team is going to give up anything more for Davies, so I believe he’ll go to the minors.

By Paladin

July 17, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

BobJ Boy, did you tell me—I think. Have a nice nap.

NOTE: The preceding was full of 4-letter words, all “nice”.

By Paladin

July 17, 2007 12:35 PM | Link to this

BTW bobj, let me know when you are back on. I got some things to talk at you about. I’ll even take a longer nap to be on here tonight.

Right now, I’m going to eat and take my nap. In order to get to sleep I’ll count boobs. Hey, everybody to their own thing.

By JasonInMaine

July 17, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this

From FoxSports.com:

“One scout said his understanding was that White Sox GM Ken Williams would like to move, in order of preference, Jose Contreras, Javier Vazquez and Jon Garland. The scout’s order of preference was the exact reverse of that, partly because Garland has only one more year remaining on his contract. The scout believed there was only lukewarm interest in outfielder Jermaine Dye. — Chicago Tribune”

Hopefully, their price for their starters will come down as the deadline approaches.

Regards,

Jason

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

Efrim,

It’s not a matter of who I’d rather deal, Davies or Brandon Jones or Matt Harrison or whomever.

The question is is it worth giving up one of those guys for a guy like Morris, Dotel or Jennings? I say no.

I understand all these guys are living on potential but I just don’t think Morris, Dotel or Jennings are going to be worth enough wins to justify trading a cheap, young guy with a decent amount of potential and picking up the remainder of their contracts.

These are not number one or two starters. At this point, Morris and Jennings are three’s at best and are better suited for fourth. And Dotel wouldn’t be the best or second-best reliever on the team. Why give up a player/players with a decent shot at success for one of these guys?

By DAP

July 17, 2007 12:42 PM | Link to this

mike in Fretta i agree that so far this season, the braves have been streaky, where they would win a bunch then lose a bunch, but i think that after interleague play, they really turned the corner. they havent just been hot for 4 or five games, they are 12-5 in their last 17 games. thats real good, and if it keeps up, will win us the division.

before last night, we got three outstanding starts from our rotation in a row, something that hasnt really happend. we have also had clutch hitting for the 17 game strech, not counting last night of course. so, a 16 game strech i suppose.

what im excited about is when smoltz gets back. how about this gauntlet? smoltz, hudson, james, carlyle…the way they have been pitching, thats quite a formittable four. i think were in for some sweeps, guys.

By Efrim

July 17, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this

Shaun

I’ve come to the realization that we won’t get anything on the trade market because teams are asking for way too much. It is a shame that Kyle will have to be in our rotation for the remainder of the season. Even if he is sent down after tonight because Reyes dazzles, Reyes isn’t going to be a strong option in his rookie year with 2 starts under his belt.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

Lee,

The thing is the Braves have control over Davies for more than just this season.

By this time this season, Davies could be the same or he could be a solid number three starter.

From what I’ve read, a lot of the pitchers on the market are merely number three or four starters; guys who aren’t going to be worth that many more extra wins. And they are established guys, so they aren’t going to get better.

I don’t see a realistic trade out there where it would be worth trading Davies or Harrison or guys like that.

I almost see a trade involving Salty or Escobar as more likely. Teams would give up big-impact guys (although maybe not pitchers) for them.

By Efrim

July 17, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

Shaun

I understand your point. I guess we just have to deal with Kyle Davies in the rotation for the rest of the year. Very troubling.

By The Grinch

July 17, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

Back for just a moment.

Efrim, exactly. “Wang” and “Davies” don’t belong in the same sentence; I’ve been saying it all along.

Paladin, if you can count more than two that aren’t yours, you’re quite the man. Although, you might have a dog or two with six each. :-)

Hillbilly, FLBravesgirl gave you a free preview? You go, son!

Robert, perhaps you should’ve been given a discount considering who you had to sit next to.

Later; time to get some work done.

By Lew

July 17, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

Robert-And you got a complimentary Twinky. Wasn’t that worth the price of admission? On the watered down discussion-another factor not usually taken into consideration-when Gibby was blowing them out, they were using four man rotations with 16 teams (64 ML starters). Now they use five man rotations with 30 teams (150 ML starters -and some have 13 man pitching staffs, as well). This would, I believe, water down the talent pool somewhat.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this

Efrim,

You never know. Reyes could settle in as a solid number four or five.

And maybe the Giants or Rockies would settle for a somewhat mediocre prospect for Morris or Jennings as it gets down to crunch time.

As I said, it’s not that I wouldn’t want Morris or Jennings, just that I wouldn’t trade a younger pitcher that has any amount of potential for guys like Morris and Jennings.

By Lee

July 17, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

I almost see a trade involving Salty or Escobar as more likely. Teams would give up big-impact guys (although maybe not pitchers) for them.

Shaun -

That is what I am afraid of. I have been and still am convinced both of these players are going to be the type that really make an major impact to a team and hate to see them go. Your suggestion about sending Davies to the minors may be the best / only way to handle his situation. If this is done no doubt some trade will be made for a starter. Salty and Escobar, if not both, will undoubtedly be the ones involved in a trade whether it is a starter or impact position player. People usually jump on me when I say this but I could really see Escobar being our 2nd baseman next year and Johnson returning to left field maybe to platoon with Diaz.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 1:12 PM | Link to this

Lew,

If the talent pool is watered down, why are there better hitting shortstops, catchers and secondbasemen than ever before?

By s t i n k y

July 17, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

lew, gibson also pitched with a taller mound. given the bandoxes housing the game today, and the behemoths playing in them, maybe its time to equzlize things a little.

By Salty

July 17, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this

Shaun Look @ Lew’s post again. He’s talking ‘watered down’ pitching…twice as many pitchers in the bigs, now. If the pitching stinks, marginal/role players look like studs…and the real studs are smashing records left and right.

By Paladin

July 17, 2007 1:46 PM | Link to this

Shaun

If the talent pool is watered down, why are there better hitting shortstops, catchers and secondbasemen than ever before?

I think you better ask Barroid that question.

Yeah, I’m back. I’m too mad to sleep.

And Grinch I meant imaginary ones. Like Alison Krauss’ :-)

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this

First of all, there is a depth problem. There are several teams that dont have but three or four guys who really belong in the bigs.

Are you sure about that? Not sure how you could prove or disprove this but my guess is there are more guys now closer to as good as Albert Pujols than there were guys closer to Babe Ruth in his day. I believe human beings are strong, faster, quicker, bigger and that more people know how to play baseball.

Second, tho the players are bigger, stronger, and faster, a great majority of them are fundamentally unsound

Another claim that’s difficult to prove or disprove. You use one team’s, the Pirates’, errors in one game as evidence which is ironic because fielding percentage has actually gone up over the years.

By Lew

July 17, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

Shaun-I was talking about pitchers and I only tossed it out as one theory-I truly don’t know why the pitching is so much less consistent in MLB these days. As far as position players, I imagine weight lifting and training regimens have contributed to the hitting explosion, as well as small stadiums built for hitters with much less foul territory as well as shorter fences have made a huge difference. As someone mentioned yesterday, there didn’t used to be .330 hitting shortstops or catchers back in the 60’s. It could be the evolution of the game and the way it is now played. Just as in the pre-Ruthian days, baseball was a much different game than after The Sultan started Swatting, so has the game changed yet again since the 60’s. Also, when I helped coach Little League 15 years ago, when my son played, I was not thrilled with the way pitching was taught. They used the same rocking motion form of delivery for everyone. There was no leg kick taught and no allowance for any individual motion. No one was allowed to throw on a daily basis, building up arm strength (listen to Don Sutton on THAT subject-he may be right).I think (think, mind you-I don’t know for sure) that this method has adversely affected today’s pitchers-back in the 60’s Little League participation was way less than now.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

Lee,

My guess is Davies will be sent down and Salty and/or Escobar will only be traded for a high-impact position player (because there reportedly are not high-impact pitchers available) that is signed at least through next season.

I don’t think it’s as bad a move as some if Salty or Escobar is traded for a high-impact guy like Teixeira.

Yes, I agree Salty and Escobar are likely going to be stars or close to it. But if a great player is available that could make a huge impact towards the Braves possibly winning the World Series, I think they have to pull the trigger. They have a young catcher and plenty of young infielders.

Let me emphasis that it would have to be an high-impact guy—like a guy that can hit cleanup right now or a guy that can be a number one or two starter. Teixeira’s really the only guy out there like that, it seems.

By TennesseePaul

July 17, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this

Payne: Lew posted on pitching. 60+ pitchers as opposed to 150+ pitchers.
Perhpas these power hitting short stops are the benifactors of the watered down pitching. Perhaps they are teeing off on these guys and then teeing off on the even lesser relief pitchers.

Here’s something you’ll enjoy, and I’d like to know… what is the ratio of good/great pitchers to the league from yesteryear compared to today? Define the variables how ever you like. I’m just curious.

By Paladin

July 17, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

Grinch One other thing about your’s and Robert’s sojurn to the ole ballpark. Did Robert constantly yell COX SUX? And if so, did you want to sink down in your seat?

By TennesseePaul

July 17, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this

Teixiera would be nice to have in some respects, but then you have to also take into account, we have a switch hitting potentially power hitting guy who can man first base for 6 years. Tex only covers us for 1.5 years, and forces us to pass on AJ next offseason. I’d rather have AJ’s glove in the outfield and a rookie at first than a rookie in the outfield and Tex at first.
If we are to make a move for a truly impact player, it’d be a pitcher I’d imagine.
I don’t know who we’ll trade or who we’d get, but I do know that whatever happens, JS is pulling the trigger. The odds are it will be a good deal. Rarely does JS make a poor trade.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

Salty and Lew,

Here’s something I found in a Baseball Digest article, that explains what I’m trying to say better than I can:

This defies logic. Let’s say 1950, when Ted Williams and Joe DiMaggio were playing, was the high-water mark for the game. That’s what I hear all the time. There were 16 major league teams in 1950, and would be for another decade. The population of the United States was 152 million. In other words, there was one major league team for about every 9.5 million Americans.

Jackie Robinson had broken the color line, but African-American players still largely were frozen out of the game. Willie Mays was on the verge of joining the Giants. Players from outside the United States were few and far between.

In 2000, there are 30 major league teams. The population of the nation is about 274 million. In other words, there is one big league team for about every 9.1 million Americans. That’s not watering down the talent pool. Yes, baseball no longer is the automatic first choice for athletic young Americans. But that is more than offset because of the internationalization of the talent pool and the disintegration of the color line and then the quotas that limited the number of minority players on the field.

Why would this phenomenon only affect hitters?

Hitting is better than ever right now because of rule changes that favor batters and things like strength training tend to do more to help batters than pitchers. I don’t think there are less major league caliber atheletes than before. As the article says, that drastically defies logic.

By ernesto

July 17, 2007 2:11 PM | Link to this

Tex is a nice player don’t get me wrong, but our offense isn’t so thin we need to trade the future to fix it. I’d rather see what Salty can do over there and hope to get something other than a good breeze from Thorman.

Seriously, we’ve got some nice young players I’d hate to see them become stars on another team.

Guys like Dotel or Jennings just aren’t worht it. Morris would be nice, but I wouldn’t give up the farm to get him.

By ernesto

July 17, 2007 2:14 PM | Link to this

Here’s a blog constant that should surprise no one.

Braves win/Mets Lose = no trolls

Braves Win/Mets win or Braves lose/Mets lose = light sprinkling of trolls

Braves lose/Mets win = troll downpour

By TennesseePaul

July 17, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

Payne: I admire the optimism about the human race, but I’m not sure it’s a world wide fact that humans are “are strong, faster, quicker, bigger”.
I think the majority of the outcome has to do with money. The almighty dollar has opened a lot of eyes to the benefits of staying in shape so as to be stronger, faster, quicker, bigger.

By Lew

July 17, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

Ten Paul-How’s that California sun, Dude? I don’t know if I’d even consider Texiera. He is good, but has been injured. Add to that what his cost would be, both for who we’d have to trade and then the $$ we would have to pay to lock him up and I think we have, as you stated, an equally good (potentially) option at much less $$ and I think we forget Tex. I’d much rather spend our resources for bench help and pitching. It’s pretty damn pitiful when you’re reduced to using Chuck James and JoJo Reyes to pinch hit.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

Problem is worse pitching stats doesn’t mean worse pitching, necessarily. I think it probably means the balance has swung in favor of hitters (because of things like more strength training and rule changes and smaller parks).

The population is more than large enough to supply every team with as many quality pitchers and hitters as ever before, as you can see in that last post. I doubt rise in population would impact hitters more than pitchers.

To answer your question, I would guess there are at least as many good/great pitchers now as there were in the past basically because of the population idea.

By Lew

July 17, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

Shaun-Like many other things in life, it is all probably a combination of factors leading to the end result. However,it’s a moot point as you are left with said end result and the fact remains that everyone needs pitching and there isn’t much good pitching to be had. It’s also very expensive. C’est la vie.

By flbravesgirl

July 17, 2007 2:28 PM | Link to this

You’re on thin ice there, Grinch.

Hillbilly, glad the info was helpful. Extra Innings never seems to advertise their previews, so I might as well let y’all know about it. Watch the games, you can always rent the movies another time.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

ernesto,

I get what your saying and I know nothing is a sure thing. But if Tex can increase the run differential enough so that the Braves are almost assured a playoff spot, it may be worth it. I think Tex, if healthy, is a better player that Salty is or will be next season. What’s good is I don’t think the Braves can go wrong either way.

By TennesseePaul

July 17, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this

Payne: I’d be more interested in that article if it analyzed the male population during the two periods and the popularity of other sports affects on the male population during those two periods. There are not 274 million male baseball players in America today. So the ratio isn’t 9.1 million per ball player. It could be 9.1 million fans per ball player, but not potential talent pool.

By Lee

July 17, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

It’s pretty damn pitiful when you’re reduced to using Chuck James and JoJo Reyes to pinch hit.

That is what I am talking about Lew. I think Cox has lost his mind. I guess it was because the Braves were either up or down by so many runs at the time this took place; but please, this is not going to cut it in close games. This really says a lot about our bench.

By Lew

July 17, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

Shaun-One fly in the proverbial ointment on your doubling of population argument-There has been a huge (much more than double since 1960) rise in the incidence of childhood obesity and such afflictions as diabetes, autism and ADD. Out of that doubled population, how many more are actually fit enough to be physically or athletically viable as pro athletes?

By NO CHOP ZONE

July 17, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this

If the braves don’t win the division again can you fans like LEW, DonC, Paladin(The king Troll), Ect Ect stop living in the past. This way we can have a realistic conversation about the NL East in 2008. The 14 division thing was cute but if you don’t win the division this year we all agree it’s over and 2006 WAS NOT a fluke……OK?

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 2:41 PM | Link to this

Lew,

I think a more appropriate way to say it is pitching hasn’t kept up with the pendulum swing in favor of offense. I believe the talent pool hasn’t changed or maybe has even gotten better.

Something else to consider, maybe talent is not evenly dispersed. You said everyone needs pitching. I don’t think the Padres or the Red Sox or the A’s need pitching. Sure, they’d take it but they don’t need it anymore than the Tigers need offense.

By ernesto

July 17, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this

Shaun, except by tying up all that dough in Tex. we can’t sign a big name free agent pitcher, which I think would help us waaaaaaaay more than a potential upgrade at first.

By TennesseePaul

July 17, 2007 2:47 PM | Link to this

Payne: I was just asking for a ratio compared to the majors. Were there 10 good pitchers in the 60s compared 5 good pitchers in the 90s? And in the 60s there were x number of pitchers total and likewise in the 90s. It isn’t terrible complex what I’m asking for here.
But if you can’t do it then you can’t do it.

Lew: The sun is a bit over bearing right now. I’d love to have a good weeks worth of rain. It hasn’t rained out here all year. We are about 14 inches behind in the rain fall. So, we are looking at the worst fire season in history. 2003 could look like nothing compared to what might happen this year. Water rations are supposed to be in place in 2008 if nothing changes.
As for the bench, the short change is with 13 pitchers. Maybe when Smoltz comes back from the DL, a pitcher will be dropped and either Franco brought in or Pena called up. I’m not terribly disappointed with the bench now that Escobar, Salty, and Harris are there. Much improved from opening day.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

July 17, 2007 2:47 PM | Link to this

Hillbilly, FLBravesgirl gave you a free preview? You go, son!

Grinch, I ain’t even gonna touch that comment. You’re gonna get us both in trouble with her, and one of us needs to live to tell the story ; - )

By Lee

July 17, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

I think the majority of the outcome has to do with money. The almighty dollar has opened a lot of eyes to the benefits of staying in shape so as to be stronger, faster, quicker, bigger.

10Paul - Not to mention a few substances not to be mention.

By Lew

July 17, 2007 2:53 PM | Link to this

NoBrainZone-If my memory serves me correctly (and it does), it was YOU that brought up the 14 division thing yesterday. Or was it the Drooling Mets’ Fool? Little difference as far as I can tell. You’re both excellent examples of Baggers. As you also kindly point out to me on a regular basis-I hate the Mets. That’s what my posts to you are usually about-Just how much the Mets (and you) Suck. Go away Little Whining Mosquito Boy. Your team has sucked since May 20-half the season in which the Mets are sub .550, like your intellect is sub ground level. As usual (last year excepted) the Mets are finding a way to tank yet again. You want to talk about the past Little Weasel? Can you say Mo Vaughan and Jeromy Burnitz-or the newest version, Carlos DelGado and Carlos Beltran? The Mets are going down, No Brain Zone. When we take over the Division, are YOU going to come back and talk about YOUR past? Like the two WS championships and not much else in the intervening 20 years? Or are you just going to come back and attack me and other loyal Braves’ fans?

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 2:54 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

Yeah, you can take into account male population and the increase in interest in other sports, but what about the fact that now a lot more international players are playing in the big leagues in addition to Americans. And what about the fact that segregation doesn’t keep dark-skinned people (from America and around the world) from playing in the big leagues.

Take all this into account and the talent pool I would think is obviously at the very least as big as it ever was.

Lew,

Maybe there has been a rise in some diseases and some ailments but what about the technology and vaccines and medical breakthroughs that have come along which have allowed more people than ever to enter the talent pool?

With all due respect, I’m not sure how one could argue the talent pool for baseball players has shrunk over the last 50-100 years.

By Efrim

July 17, 2007 2:56 PM | Link to this

NO CHOP ZONE,

What do you mean? Why should I think the Mets will be better in 2008? Please explain.

By Lee

July 17, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

Last year was not a fluke; the Mets were clearly the Best team in the division. I don’t know how anybody can argue with that. This year it is clearly up for graps at this point.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

July 17, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

FLBravesGirl:

Problem is I already own the DVDs, but I just have trouble changing the channel when a good Italian Mobster movie is on. However, I have even more trouble turning down anything “FREE.” I’ll watch the games. True Fan.

By Lew

July 17, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

Well Shaun-There’s a lot of us here who wonder how you can argue some of what you argue, as well. Doesn’t keep you from arguing it, though, does it? Maybe you’re right, maybe not. As I said several times this afternoon, I don’t know the reason why the situation is as it is. I’m not sure you do, either. Also, as I said earlier, the situation is what it is and must be dealt with as it is-our arguments, notwithstanding.

By bobby

July 17, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

It would not be that terrible if the Braves traded Salty for a starting pitcher such as Snell. Brayan Pena could come up and be a great back-up catcher / platoon man at first. He does not have as much power as Salty but his BA is very respectable (.324)at the minor league level, but he is only 5-23 (.217) in the majors. With Pena, Diaz, (maybe Thor, and maybe Franco, maybe Woodward) all able to play first, it’s not like we are losing anything defensively.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 3:08 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

Ratio of good pitchers is difficult to measure, actually. Don’t know if I could do it.

Because the scales have been tipped to offense, I believe a pitcher that would have been good may now be average (even if we adjust for things people being strong, faster, quicker, bigger).

I think it is a little more complex than you think.

Also, if you measure how many pitchers are dominant relative to the league or relative to a fringe-type pitcher, I’m not sure that’s going to answer the question. If the balance is tipped toward offense, there may be less dominant pitchers by this measure even though there may be just as many or more talented pitchers.

By Efrim

July 17, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

Braves prospect Jeff Locke threw five scoreless innings to win for Rookie Danville on Monday.

Locke, a 2006 second-round pick, has a mediocre 4.63 ERA, but he’s posted a 26/5 K/BB ratio in 23 1/3 innings and he’s getting nearly three outs on the ground for each one through the air. He’s in the second tier of Braves pitching prospects behind Matt Harrison, Tommy Hanson and Jo-Jo Reyes.

That was from Rotoworld. With all due respect to Reyes and Harrison, Hanson is the Braves prospect with the highest ceiling. I have never seen any of these guys, but Hanson’s numbers in the minors are that of Phillip Hughes and Clay Bucholz. Prospective aces in the bigs. Braves fans should be really excited about Tommy Hanson. Too bad he won’t be here until 2009. Possibly a late September call-up next year. He is a stud.

By Dibbs

July 17, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

The blog seems kind of bland these days, kind of like egg whites, no flavor at all, definitely missing something, could be it’s the SJA, heavy hitting major leaguer for sure, what a vivid intellect that fellow.

By NO CHOP ZONE

July 17, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

LEW, those are big words from a little man. Should I remind you of the Cardinals last year who limped into the playoffs and won it all. How about the 1985 Kansas City Royals. In fact the 1973 Mets barely had a .500 record and took Oakland to seven games in the WS. Oh well enough history, My point is that anything is possible once you’re at the dance. Remember this Lew…..God Loves you. Don’t be a hater.

By DAP

July 17, 2007 3:21 PM | Link to this

wow. im glad you guys can spend so much time talking about the talent pool and stay interested. to me, thats the most boring line of discussion that has ever appeared on this blog for this long. im not saying to stop…ya’ll have fun…but wow.

By TennesseePaul

July 17, 2007 3:27 PM | Link to this

Just out of curiousity, I pulled up the 2000 Census data. As of that census, the male population between the ages of 15 and 35 was 40.2 million.
Between 20-35 it was 29.8 million.
Finding 1950’s data is near impossible. From the looks of it, ages between 15-35 tallied around 25 million.
This is the talent pool the teams are pulling from so this would be where the expansion effect is found. Using these approximations, the talent pool was about 17% greater in 1950 than it is now when including the teens. Just the adults and it gets closer to 20%.

By TennesseePaul

July 17, 2007 3:33 PM | Link to this

Payne: It isn’t complex. You’re over thinking the matter. I never wanted to compare stats between the eras. Not sure why you keep doing that. Good pitchers, make a list. In the 90s there was Clemens, Maddux, Pedro, Glavine, etc… In the 1960’s there was…. How hard is that?

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this

Lew,

I could be wrong but I think the situation is what it is (more teams are looking for pitching nowadays) because the game favors offense now (relative to some past eras) and NOT because the talent pool of pitchers has decreased or pitchers are less manly or anything like that.

I think arguing that the talent pool has decreased is extremely counterintuitive because of an increase in the population, better medical breakthroughs, faster and stronger human beings, no segregation, more international players, more knowledge of the game and how to succeed. Given all that, I just don’t see how the game could be watered down relative to past eras.

By DAP

July 17, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

i said this yesterday, but i wanted to repeat it and get ya’lls opinion. i hope sheurholtz wll take notice, because i think this will really help the team.

release chris wooward(or trade him) and send down thorman (or trade him. weather or not he can be sent down without waivers matters not to me. he CAN be sent down, either way.)

then, bring in julio (or another righty veteran) and bring up pena.

with this senerio, you have three 1st baseman (franco, salty, pena) 3 2B, (kelly, escobar, harris) 2 SS (edgar, escobar), 4 3b (chipper, harris, escobar, pena) 3 catchers (pena, mccann, salty) and 6 outfielders (frenchy, kelly, diaz, harris, andruw, pena)

thats alot of depth, and you dropped our two worst hitters.

i would not worry much about getting great value for thorman or woodward. get what you can, even if its just a prospect. perferably pitching, but maybe outfield or 3b.

do this with the lineup and try to get a bullpen arm, and we have improved GREATLY.

my bold prediction last october was, and still is: Atlanta Braves, 2007 World Series Champs.

By NO CHOP ZONE

July 17, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

Efrim, now don’t get LEW-ie on me. I didn’t say the Mets would be better in 2008. All I am saying is this: you can’t move on and have an honest discussion about the NL East with many brave fans until they let go of the past. If the braves don’t win the division for a second straight season I’m hoping we can move on and stop acting like the braves invented baseball…….That’s all.

By Dibble

July 17, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this

A definite reduction in the blog talent pool.

By DAP

July 17, 2007 3:45 PM | Link to this

dibble, funny.

By Paladin

July 17, 2007 3:47 PM | Link to this

NCZ If I have been annointed King of the Trolls the first thing I’m going to do is send your little pencil-neck to the guillotine. If they can’t set it that narrow, I’ll just have you squeezed like the pimple you are.

By Efrim

July 17, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this

NO CHOP ZONE,

I’ll buy that. I think the Mets have a bright future. So do the Braves. Should be a fun time down the stretch and the next couple of years….

By TennesseePaul

July 17, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

I think arguing that the talent pool has decreased is extremely counterintuitive because of an increase in the population, better medical breakthroughs, faster and stronger human beings, no segregation, more international players, more knowledge of the game and how to succeed

Don’t forget, medical breakthroughs merely prolong a career, not turn a bad player into a great player, the errant view that all men are created physically equal and desire to play baseball, the expansion of the major leagues joined with the expansion of the pitching staffs. Given all that it could be argued that it is counter intuitive to completely dismiss all other points.

By monty

July 17, 2007 3:52 PM | Link to this

cox is a genius, he’s smart enough to see that JoJo has a better swing than anyone else off his bench. What doe sthat say about the bench?

By JasonInMaine

July 17, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

JS is going to be on Baseball This Morning on XM Thursday morning at around 7:25 AM. Unfortunately, I no longer have XM. If someone listens, let us know if JS atypically provides insight into what the Braves are working on!

By ernesto

July 17, 2007 3:55 PM | Link to this

New blog is up.

By NO CHOP ZONE

July 17, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

Paladin(The King Troll) you are a hostil little b-i-t-c-h- aren’t you? I know exactly what you need and where but I’ll do my part to keep the blog PG-13.

By DAP

July 17, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

new blog, ya’ll.

By Shaun

July 17, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

No way the talent pool has decreased when the US population has increased from about 150 million in 1950 to over 281 million now.

I would love to see where you found your data. Is it US males between those ages? Males around the world?

Also, the point about medical breakthroughs is that they would likely increase the talent pool. There are vaccines for diseases that weren’t around before. More children are surviving child birth. Antibiotics fight infections so surgeries aren’t nearly as dangerous. So medical breakthroughs actually do something besides makes guys stick around longer.

Also, the expansion of baseball and pitching staffs pale in comparison to the fact that the talent pool has increased because of an increase in not only the US population but also because of more international players and no segregation.

Back in the first half of the 1900’s, baseball was dominated by American-born, white males; and that may be an understatement. That was basically the only group in the talent pool. Now it is pulling talent not only from that group but from Latin, Asian, Australian-born males, black Americans. How in the world can you argue the talent pool is shrinking, even with expansion of teams and pitching staffs? Not trying to be a jerk about this, but I just don’t see how the talent pool is smaller than is was at any other point in the history of the game.

By Paladin

July 17, 2007 4:19 PM | Link to this

NGZ Now that everyone is gone, I can address you by your full name. Pimple on the A$$ of Humanity.

By \\\\\\\\\\BERIGAN//////////

July 17, 2007 4:59 PM | Link to this

N8,

Yesterday you were talking about how Davies was throwing in the mid 90’s in SD….well, I recall Wickman was hitting 94-95 in that game as well! That radar gun was off for sure.

Davies, as you know, normally hits 93(Wickman 91, which is why I think his sinker isn’t doing as well as it normally does when he is pitching 88-89 )

As others have mentioned, Davies needs another pitch, a straight 93 is very hittable. Verlander can throw a straight 102 MPH pitch sometimes and get away with it.

Anyone recall Dave Stewart when he first came up with the Dodgers??? Man, he’d look great for 3-4 innings, then get the crap beat out of him. Yet, he looked like a good pitcher! But the results showed otherwise. He seemed like someone who’d make a better reliever but came up with a splitter, and became a very good starter, a great one come playoff time.

Davies should go down to AAA, and work on a 2 seemer, and a splitter…or we can trade him for nothing, and watch him win 15 a year for another team.

By laurance maney

July 17, 2007 5:28 PM | Link to this

And then there was Warren Spahn. 382 career complete games. 20 or more twice in his 40s. And he worked for a living in the off season. Sure the game was different then but Spahn is and always will be the Gold Standard.

By some guy

July 17, 2007 8:25 PM | Link to this

Am I the only person to notice that the Braves also have yet to hit a grand slam this year?