AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2007 > June > 14 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USSalty’s at 1B; Stark fires back at Boras
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
The move that so many of you blog denizens have been pining for — can’t say I blame you — is happening. At least tonight it’s happening, and I’d guess it’ll happen some more.
Salty is starting at first base.
Yes, top catching prospect Jarrod Saltalamacchia is getting his first start at first base in place of slumping Scott Thorman. Good luck, kid: All you’ve got to do is face the game’s top left-hander, Johan Santana.
Oh, and if you’re in there again tomorrow in the series opener at Cleveland, you’ll face 6-foot-7, 300-plus-pound C.C. Sabathia.
If Salty gets multiple hits tonight and tomorrow against those guys, he’s officially earned a permanent starting job.
OK, not really. But he should. Santanta Consider that Sabathia has pitched 18 scoreless innings in his past two starts while allowing a total of eights hits and one walk, with 14 strikeouts.
Anyway, a lot of folks have been waiting for Cox to make this move, as Thorman has sputtered since a promising April. He was supposed to be in a platoon with Craig Wilson, but Wilson doesn’t do hitting anymore and was released.
Thorman was given a chance to play every day, and hasn’t made the most of it, to say the least.
He’s got a solid seven homers and respectable 27 RBIs in 55 games, but Thorman is hitting .225, including 10-for-50 with no homers, three RBIs and a meager .486 OPS vs. lefties (.260 slugging).
Since May 1, Thorman’s hit just .200 (27-for-135) with four homers, 16 RBIs, three walks and 30 strikeouts, for a .221 OBP.
Since Saltalamacchia arrived from Double-A Miss’ip, he’s hit .322 (19-for-59) with three doubles, two homers, eight RBIs and only nine strikeouts, quite impressive for a young kid with no previous experience above Double-A who’s playing a part-time role that’s included infrequent starts and pinch-hitting.
The switch-hitting 22-year-old could be playing a lot more now, if he continues what he’s been doing. He was 9-for-20 in his past (.450) with two doubles and a homer in his past five starts before tonight.
Salty is hitting .346 (9-for-26) with a .615 slugging percentage vs. lefties and .303 (10-for-33) with a .364 slugging percentage vs. righties.
And he’s hit better as the stakes are raised: .297 with none on base, .364 (8-for-22) with runners on, and .417 (5-for-12) with runners in scoring position. A small sample, obviously, but still encouraging.
He’s got a cannon arm and a swagger and presence you don’t see often in guys so inexperienced. He could be a standout catcher in the majors, but the Braves have one of those.
They’re going to have to decide by this winter whether to entertain trade offers for Salty or make him their first baseman. I don’t see many, if any, other options. He’s probably too big to be anything more than serviceable in the outfield, and they need a first baseman anyway, if Thorman isn’t going to be the guy (and I’m prett sure they’ve not made that decision just yet; it’s awful early to decide Thorman doesn’t have it).
I wouldn’t give up Salty for anything less than an impact starting pitcher, a young guy who’s affordable for several years, or a special talent like Dontrelle Willis. But we’ll see. It’s early. Let’s let the kid play some first base and see what he can do playing on a regular basis, assuming he’s going to get that chance.
The Braves could call up Brayan Pena to give them an extra catcher, and they’ve been playing Pena at a lot of positions lately, which tell me they could be grooming him as a utility guy and third catcher.
If that’s the case, they have a couple of underperforming utility men, and Pete Orr has all his minor league options remaining. But that’s just me talking, not anything I’ve heard. Just an educated guess, nothing more.
The Stark Rebuttal: Yes, I capitalized every word, because it’s rather epic. Jayson Stark called me today, a couple days after I wrote agent Scott Boras’s blistering critique of Stark’s assessment of Boras client as “the most overrated center fielder in history” in a new book that Jayson’s written.
He said he hoped I’d give him a chance for a counter to the rebuttal. And I like Jayson, and felt it was only fair. He wrote it out and e-mailed it to me.
(I’ll expect a slice of the first-month profits on this damn book, for all the publicity he’s getting for it here.)
Anyway, rather than paraphrase Jayson, I figured I’d utilize the luxury of unlimited space on this here internet de-vice and run the man’s comments in full (that, plus the fact it’s getting close to game time and I’ve still got to write my notebook).
Folks, it’s long, I warn you. So if you want to skip it, there’s no more Braves news on this blog. I’m running late.
So here goes, in full (and Jayson, send the check to my home address, please):
Hi Dave,
I just got a chance to read our pal Scott Boras' retort
to my book, which I found highly entertaining. And, as usual, Scott distorted what I wrote and what I’ve been saying about Andruw publicly since the book came out. So I’d like the chance to respond if you could find any room in your little sector of cyberspace for me.
First off, I knew when I wrote this book there was a 100-percent probability that Scott would disagree with this assessment of Andruw. I knew lots of people would. This book is about perception. It’s about one of the great debates in sports - who’s overrated, who’s underrated. So we’re SUPPOSED to disagree.
I’ve said from the beginning that this book wasn’t intended to settle any debates about these players. But it looks as if it has STARTED about 100,000 debates. And that was the whole idea.
It wasn’t written to make people angry. It wasn’t written to call attention to me. It wasn’t written as some misguided attempt to throw a bunch of names out there for the shameless sake of (in Scott’s words) “stirring up controversy.” It was supposed to make people think, and to raise questions about why we perceive players in certain ways, when in lots of cases, the facts don’t quite match the perceptions.
But when Scott Boras starts accusing ME of “manipulating the numbers” in the name of “profiteering,” I have to laugh. Isn’t Scott the number-manipulation champion of the world? And when he does it, his ONLY motivation is profiteering. All I did was write a book.
And what’s that book about? It’s about who’s overrated and who’s underrated. So it was bound to hit a few nerves - unless I’d confined it to the most overrated and underrated players in the Federal League or something. But the whole point of the book was to explore the myths and illusions that surround recognizable players.
Scott just happens to represent one of those players, whom he’s now openly comparing to Willie Mays so he can inspire some team to pay him 100 zillion dollars next winter.
Speaking of Willie Mays, if Scott’s line about how Andruw was the first centerfielder since Willie Mays to record five straight seasons of 400 putouts sounds familiar, it might be because IT’S IN THE BOOK. (Actually, the factoid Scott threw out to you was wrong. Mays isn’t the ONLY centerfielder to do that. Richie Ashburn did it right before Mays, in fact. Mays was just the most recent before Andruw. But I’ll take the high road and not accuse Scott of “failed research” on that one.)
The reason that fact is in the book is that I didn’t set out to “overrate” Andruw, or hurt his market value, or go out of my way to demean him. I included that fact because I wanted to make clear that the Andruw who ripped off that string of 400 putouts WAS the greatest defensive centerfielder I ever saw play. If I just wanted to manipulate facts in this book, why would I have spent so much time - in Andruw’s chapter and all the overrated chapters - giving him and all those players credit for why we’ve come to believe they were so great in the first place?
I did my best in this book, and certainly in this chapter, to avoid being mean-spirited. I specifically said Andruw is still highly employable. I specifically said Andruw is sure as heck still better out there than, say, Brian Asselstine. I’ve said in about 1,000 interviews since the book came out that Andruw is still a tremendous player.
But was he exactly the same player over the last few
years that we perceived him to be? No. And Scott can manipulate his own numbers and “indexes” all he wants. But he can’t explain away those 100 balls a year that Andruw used to catch that he wasn’t catching anymore - until, by some remarkable stroke of fate, he got himself back in A-1 shape this year in a contract year (and now is magically catching them again). Do the math. If the guy was down 100 putouts a season, that’s four balls a week he used to catch that he wasn’t catching anymore.
I said in the book that I was surprised to see those numbers myself. But I didn’t make them up or manipulate them. They’re real. And Scott’s trashing of Zone Rating is purely his way of discrediting research he doesn’t agree with.
I only looked at Zone Rating because my initial inclination, as I wrote in the book, was NOT to believe the raw numbers. I wanted to factor out variables like whether the Braves’ staff had more ground-ball pitchers than it used to, etc. The defensive stat that does that best, in my opinion, is Zone Rating.
I've asked plenty of sabermatricians about Zone Rating.
And they sure characterize it differently than Scott does. It doesn’t assign wider zones to players like Andruw because he’s so good. All centerfielders are assigned the same zone. So how does it penalize players with more range?
Andruw's Zone Rating dipped in exactly the way his
other numbers dipped. He used to lead the league. Last year, he finished at the bottom of the league. Any attempt to explain that away is an attempt to make the conclusion differ from the facts - which was the opposite of the way I went about it.
Now one more thing, and I’m done. Scott suggests that I made up that “old scout crap” in which I said a scout I knew was the first to steer me toward Andruw as a player who - while still good - wasn’t what people perceived him to be anymore.
I’m not sure if Scott is suggesting that I made up the quote or made up the scout. But let me assure you, this scout is not just real, he’s a guy who has been scouting for many years and is one of the sharpest people I’ve ever met in baseball. And here’s the other thing: He’s not alone.
Scott would be shocked, apparently, to hear what other
scouts say about Andruw. And what other general managers say about Andruw. And what even some guys who spent years working for the Braves say about Andruw.
In fact, the scout I originally quoted happened to read Scott’s quotes in your blog this week. And he checked in to tell me that if “Scott thinks Andruw is the same outfielder now he was when he was younger, he should visit” (a prominent sports ophthalmologist who shall remain nameless).
If I were out to “get” Andruw or to “rip” Andruw, I could have used lots of quotes much stronger than the ones I used in this book. But that isn’t my style. And it isn’t the tone I hoped to set in this book.
Lots of people, I think, have gotten the wrong idea about what I meant by “overrated” in Andruw’s context. I even suspect you’ve gotten the wrong idea. It was never supposed to mean, “Aw, he’s not that good.” I never, EVER suggest he’s turned into some kind of washed-up stumble bum, because that’s ridiculous. Even before he whipped himself back into shape, he was still a terrific player, even though he wasn’t the same player.
Did I ever say he couldn’t carry Torii Hunter’s wristbands? Why would I? Scott and I are in agreement on the fact that if I could sign either Andruw or Torii, I would sign Andruw - assuming I had 100 million bucks in my checking account.
But that doesn’t mean Andruw hadn’t changed as a player over the last few years. And that’s all “overrated” means in his case. Lots of people were out there, assuming he was as good as ever, when clearly, if you’re willing to take a rational and impartial view of this, he hasn’t been. That’s all I was trying to establish. When what’s taking place on the field differs from our widely held assumptions and perceptions, that’s exactly the kind of theme I tried to explore in this book.
I know I’ve practically written a whole ‘nother chapter just in what I’ve written to you. But I’m not big on having people like Scott challenge my credibility. I’ll be happy to stack up my body of stats and research over the years with Scott’s any time. And I’ll let the world judge for itself which of us has been the real manipulator.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to give my side of
this.
Whew, I’m tired just pasting it to the blog. But you get the idea. It’s a very reasoned and cogent response from Jayson, albeit quite long.
Anyway, I told him on the phone I still don’t buy the zone rating argument because I’ve had many insiders and sabermetricians tell me that the inventor of the zone rating himself has since disowned and/or altered it several times because he conceded it penalized players such as Jones who go out of their “zone” often for balls, by not giving them credit for plays made there, etc.
But like I said, it’s late and I don’t have time to get those quotes again. I’m sure a couple of the denizens here can offer that angle again, as they have in the past couple days. A lot of folks here have been on top of this thing, so someone please give that definition or rebuttal to the zone rating thing, if you will.
As for the reduced putouts, Andruw laughed today when I asked him about it, and pointed out one often overlooked fact: Guys are hitting more home runs. Teams have three guys who hit 35 homers in their lineups now. What do you want me to do, go in the stands to get them?”
OK, enough snipping and clinical analysis: Take it away, legendary Minneapolis band The Replacements (while I run to get some BBQ at Dave’s BBQ stand here at the Metrodome).
“THE LEDGE” by Paul Westerberg
All eyes look up to me/High above the filthy streets
Heed no bullhorn when it calls/Watch me fly and die, watch me fall
I’m the boy they can’t ignore,/For the first time in my life, I’m sure
All the love sent up high to pledge/Won’t reach the ledge
Wind blows cold from the west/I smell coffee, I smell doughnuts for the press
A girl that I knew once years ago/Is tryin’ to be reached on the phone
I’m the boy she can’t ignore,/for the first time in my life, I’m sure
All the love sent up high to pledge…
I’m the boy she can’t ignore,/for the first time in my life, I’m sure
All the love sent up high to pledge.
Priest kneels silent, all is still/Policeman reaches from the sill
Watch him, watch him try his best/There’ll be no medal pinned to his chest
I’m the boy they couldn’t ignore,/for the first time in my life, I’m sure
I’m the boy they couldn’t ignore,/for the first time in my life, I’m sure
I’m the boy for the last time in my life
All the love that they pledge
For the last time will not reach the ledge
Comments
Commenting is now closed for this entry.
By eric the elder
June 14, 2007 7:59 PM | Link to this
Salty, it will be fun to watch you over there, and good luck.
Remember that you will be using different leg muscles, so don’t be a hero. Don’t go into a long stretch for a throw if you aren’t ready to do that. I’d rather a batter beat the throw than to hear a hammy pop.
By PMatlanta
June 14, 2007 8:02 PM | Link to this
ANOTHER JUNE SWOOOOOOOOON!!!!!!
By Bob, Journalist
June 14, 2007 8:13 PM | Link to this
Cato, Remember that you will be using different leg muscles, so don’t be a hero. Don’t go into a long stretch for a throw if you aren’t ready to do that. I’d rather a batter beat the throw than to hear a hammy pop
Give the kid a break! I’ll agree that aerobic rather than anaerobic energy is in order … but, you’ll have him so frightened that he’ll just stand stiff with his foot on the bag like Who did!
By Chop Chop
June 14, 2007 8:17 PM | Link to this
DOB, some of Stark’s stuff isn’t posted properly in the blog. It’s probably just as well. His “Rumblings and Grumblings” stuff is alright, but he’s no Gammons or Olney. If Jayson Stark were a little smarter (and didn’t want to sell books…excuse me…cause debate), he’d just make the argument that Andruw’s getting older. He may have just turned 30, but Andruw is on his 11th full season in the major leagues. Of course he’s going to decline as a fielder in that time. Natural wear and tear dictates that. The guy’s played at least 153 games a year in centerfield for 10 consecutive years. If he’s “overrated” as a fielder, it’s partly because perceptions of great outfielders tend to die hard (see Bonds, Barry…8 Gold Gloves…and Mays, Willie…12 of ‘em), but he’s still a top outfielder. Because of that, Andruw will probably get the benefit of the doubt the next three years, so I’m predicting Andruw will tie Mays at 12 Gold Gloves for the most all-time for a centerfielder. I’ll take an overrated dude who tied Willie Mays in a fielding record any day of the week. To me, it’s Andruw’s inconsistency at the plate that makes him overrated as a player, but I do agree with Stark that paying Andruw big money is a smarter proposition than spending it on Torii Hunter.
By Logan23
June 14, 2007 8:17 PM | Link to this
First Boras then Stark. Nothing like back to back Fleet Enemas.
By P-Town Brave
June 14, 2007 8:18 PM | Link to this
Andruw Jones…pathetic at-bat w/ RISP as usual
By Braveheart
June 14, 2007 8:18 PM | Link to this
Good Lord, I thought I was guilty of writing long winded epic blog posts.
N8, Ron Roberts, KC, looks like we are off the hook. Stark has outdone us all with that one.
From now, there will be no more bogging down the blog. It will just be labeled Starking down the blog.
But in all fairness, a good, well reasoned, intelligent response. I don’t entirely agree with Stark. I don’t think Andruw is overrated. I think at one time he was a legendary defensive centerfielder. Now, he is just really good, still better than any of his other peers, but now only a little better than the best of the best when he once was the best of the best.
It is like when Lawrence Taylor stopped getting as many sacks later in his career, did that mean he was overrated when he terrorized every QB in the NFL for at least 5 years.
It is like after the Tiger Slam when Tiger went through his little slump without victories in majors, did that mean he was overrated for his supreme reign of greatness from 1997 until 2001?
It is like Mike Tyson after getting knocked out by Buster Douglas, did that mean he was overrated during his reign of terror from 1985 until 1989?
Do we call U2 overrated because the best of their best stuff was in the 1980s?
Better yet, the Yankees have not won a World Series since Andruw’s putouts started dropping below 400. Does that mean the Yankees were overrated for what they did between 1996 and 2001? The same goes for Druw then. He was superhuman between 1996 and 2001. Now he is merely a great mortal. Does that mean he was overrated for what he did defensively between 1996 and 2001?
I guess he also thinks Sandy Koufax was overrated as well because his reign of terror lasted only six years.
By The Grinch
June 14, 2007 8:22 PM | Link to this
Man, that was a nasty change-up he threw Francouer for strike 3.
By Bob, Journalist
June 14, 2007 8:25 PM | Link to this
Jeff and Andruw may each hit .400 for the rest of the year … but I don’t think either has learned very much … it’s there to be had … what’s Jeff’s average pitches seen per plate appearance? Kelly’s trend line of the same variable?
By jp
June 14, 2007 8:26 PM | Link to this
Stark is actually right on this one. Andruw at one point was the greatest center fielder perhaps of all time. But if you’ve watched the Braves the past two seasons, you’d realize he does not dive for half the balls he use to before. I have no clue why he doesn’t take more chances. He’s got two pretty good Co-outfielders out there right now and should take more chances. May be he’s just starting to protect his own a* a little more now that he’s made all this money.
By journalist jimmy smith
June 14, 2007 8:30 PM | Link to this
why won’t andruw run? does andruw realize andruw is hitting only .215? had that ball dropped andruw would have been thrown out from short right field. andruw has become a rally killer - sad.
and happy birthday to lew! baby seal was very excited to learn of lew’s milestone. seals do not live to such a ripe, old age.
and no canadians in tonight’s lineup. it has been awhile since there were no canadians on the field for the braves, eh? let’s hope the game goes well and there will be no need for canadians tonight.
not a mention of the cubs yet from young chip caray - but the game is young.
By Erik
June 14, 2007 8:34 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB,
Has anyone talked about bringing Buddy Hernandez up from AAA? He’s doing really well in Richmond this year. His overall minor league numbers look really great, as well. He missed the entire ‘05 and ‘06 seasons though- I’m guessing because of injury?
By N8
June 14, 2007 8:35 PM | Link to this
I could care LESS about “zone this” or sabermatics or any other poppycock giving me details about this and that.
If you use your eyes and your memory, it doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out that he’s lost a step. Like Stark said, it’s not like he’s calling him chopped liver.
All he’s saying is that he’s NOT as good as he was in years past. I’ve been saying the same thing for the past two seasons (2005-2006), though I will admit, he does look better this year, than he did last year.
Add to that, I STILL stand by my comment the other day, about quality of pitchers on the staff, NOT hitting their locations, thus crossing up the defense and balls being hit much harder than we’ve seen balls get hit off of our starters the last two seasons than ANY OTHER since Andruw’s been up here.
But clearly, he’s gotten older and doesn’t cover as much ground as quickly as he used to. He’s not superman anymore, but he’s STILL better than most other CF’s.
No different than Maddux STILL being a very good pitcher, but not nearly at the same level as 1995, right?
BTW….Nice play Salty.
By A-ville Ranger
June 14, 2007 8:39 PM | Link to this
So far so good,but does Hudson look just a wee bit higher than ideal ?
By eric the elder
June 14, 2007 8:40 PM | Link to this
Salty looks confident at 1st. I wondered how he would handle a lead to the pitcher, and it went fine.
By journalist jimmy smith
June 14, 2007 8:46 PM | Link to this
carolina lady, is there a condiment that makes crow taste a little better? maybe in jambalya or something? :-) and here’s a shout out to the men and women of the fire department there in vermont. understand there was a birthday candle incident up there earlier in the day. and now, tee shirts … baby seal is back at work providing clever slogans for the tee shirts. unfortunately, baby seal has canadian humor …
and leaving men on base all the time is really taking its tole. small ball may not be the answer but neither is no runs scored.
and whither carroll rogers?
By Randy
June 14, 2007 8:48 PM | Link to this
So, one of the greatest center fielders of all time (measured both statistically and by the eyes of those who know and play the game) having a slight drop off makes him the most overrated of all time? I personally thought Andruw had lost a step in the field the past two years (a step he looks to have regained this year), but him losing that step does not equate to him being so drastically overrated. Stark, in his rebuttal, seems to have watered down his claim and thus has said nothing more than Andruw is not 25 anymore. Indeed, a slight dropoff in the defense of one of the greatest defenders in the game is something to talk about, but its subtlety doesn’t fit the Fact or Fiction, Contender or Pretender mold of modern sports coverage and thus the story is exaggerated beyond what its reality supports.
That said, Santana’s change looks nasty tonight. And all this time I had been thinking it was the most overrated pitch in the history of the game.
By Andruw Neutral
June 14, 2007 8:49 PM | Link to this
buzz wrong, N8! Most overrated is not the same as lost a step! Stark wants to put something in print that will get attention. To write Andruw’s lost a step wouldn’t do that. To say he is the most overrated does. If he is going to say that he shouldn’t be a coward and hide behind I didn’t say this or that. Fact is his headline is bringing him (his book) attention and that is what he intended now he is trying to save credibility and back down to all I’m saying is he’s not the same outfielder. Sorry can’t have both.
For the record I usually enjoy reading Jason’s stuff and like the odd ball things he digs up.
By A-ville Ranger
June 14, 2007 8:50 PM | Link to this
No doubt Salty’s more A-gile and mo-bile but if the situation gets hos-tile my money’s on Thorman.
By The Grinch
June 14, 2007 8:52 PM | Link to this
A-ville Ranger, his eyes look clear and undialated to me.
Braveheart, you’re still guilty of long-winded and epic blog posts. :-)
By Chip Caray hater
June 14, 2007 8:52 PM | Link to this
I hate that duffous.
By eric the elder
June 14, 2007 8:53 PM | Link to this
Ranger, agree Huddy is up a bit, but it looks like the ump is squeezing the low stuff.
BobJ, I deserved being called out on Salty at the start, but I have a little protective side to me. Salty looks so much like one of my grandsons.
By JasonInMaine
June 14, 2007 8:54 PM | Link to this
Just getting back in…how has Salty looked at 1st? Has he had many chances?
Regards,
Jason
By NASCARfan
June 14, 2007 8:55 PM | Link to this
Y’all are still missing the point. He’s saying exactly what many have been saying for years. That the fat Andruw Jones of the last four to five years isn’t the same Andruw Jones from his first five years. But the problem is, many fans and just about all the media still THINKS he is. That is the very definition of overrated. Now, I happen to think Andruw Jones is overrated for an entirely different reason. I believe he’s overrated because he is nothing but half a ballplayer. He’s the Ozzie Smith of the outfield. Yeah, he has more homers than Ozzie, but if Ozzie came to bat with men on the corners with 1 out in his prime, I wouldn’t be worrying about him grounding into a DP like I know we ALL worry about Andruw doing. Andruw Jones is a one-man rally killer. He’s a headcase who refuses to listen to his coaches. He has been fat and out of shape for five years. If this was a town with a less butt-kissing media, he’d be compared to Mo Vaughn or Frank Thomas, other guys who got fat and happy. What bothers me is people say that Andruw Jones is good enough to get into the Hall of Fame right now as half a ballplayer, but someone like Andre Dawson, who was a complete ballplayer, playing in cavernous ballparks, better pitching before insane expansion, without the benefits that ahem, McGwire and Bonds have enjoyed, isn’t in and may never get in. If The Hawk had a chance to play at Camden, Jacobs, Minute Maid, or the other bandboxes built in the last 15 years, he’d have at least 50 more homers, probably about 100 more. Shoot, he didn’t have road games at Coors, either. As it is, he played great defense, had a rocket arm, and hit over 400 homers in big ballparks against superior pitching and he can’t get into the HOF. So why should Andruw Jones, with an absolutely pitiful BA, OBP, and OPS get in? Tell me that, DOB. This isn’t the Hall of Great Defense. Oh yeah, The Hawk won an MVP Award, something Andruw will never win (why, because he’s HALF A STINKING BALLPLAYER!). Seriously, has there EVER been a less memorable 50 homer season than the one Andruw had? So I’m sorry, as long as Andre Dawson, a guy who’s a far better COMPLETE ballplayer than Andruw Jones, isn’t in the HOF, then I do not believe that Andruw should even be able to sniff the HOF. Once again, it’s not the Hall of Great Defense. It’s the Hall of Fame.
Andruw Jones:
OVER-RATED CLAP CLAP CLAPCLAPCLAP
OVER-RATED CLAP CLAP CLAPCLAPCLAP
OVER-RATED CLAP CLAP CLAPCLAPCLAP
Once again, should a guy be able to make the Hall of Fame if the fans of the team he plays for cringe when he comes up to bat in critical situations? HOF players are the guys you WANT to be in there with 1 out and men on the corners, or with 2 out and the tying run in scoring position. If anyone on this board says that they actually want Andruw Jones to come up to bat when the game is on the line, I’ll call you a liar to your face. A liar or a fool.
By Shaun
June 14, 2007 8:59 PM | Link to this
Here’s me firing back at Robert on the last blog:
Here is a list of Diamond Mind projected wins, expected/Pythagorean wins and actual wins for the Braves every year 1998-2006:
Year - Projected/Pythagorean/Actual 1998 - 104/106/106 1999 - 96/98/103 2000 - 101/90/95 2001 - 97/90/88 2002 - 88/96/101 2003 - 86/96/101 2004 - 86/95/96 2005 - 86/91/90 2006 - 85/85/79
The Braves have exceeded their projected record six times in the nine seasons. They exceeded their Pythagorean record five times in the nine seasons.
We can look at the average of the total projected and Pythagorean wins compared to total actual wins. This may give us a small clue into Bobby Cox’s impact 1998-2006.
The idea, again, is that if the Braves outperform their projected record, Cox may have fired up the troops to play better than expected. Of course we also have to recognize that Schuerholz may have made some great trades during the season or that certain players may have played over their heads for some other reason that had nothing to do with Cox.
Also, the idea is that if they outperform their Pythagorean record, it means Cox made some good moves at the right time that helped the Braves score and prevent runs at the right time. So even if the Braves were outscored in a stretch of games, they still won because their runs scored/prevented came in important situations, perhaps due to good strategy by Cox.
Here are the numbers:
Total projected - 829 Total Pythagorean - 847 Avg. projected and Pythagorean - 838 Total actual - 859
That’s a difference of 21 between average projected/Pythagorean and actual wins. So, 21 divided by 9 seasons is an extra 2.33 wins a season.
We can’t be sure how good this is without some comparison to other managers, but obviously it is a positive number and it seems like a pretty significant difference.
The Braves have played what seems like significantly better than expected according to a couple of different metrics since 1998. I think you have to believe Cox has something to do with it, or at the very least he didn’t cost the Braves wins (for those who think Cox is/was a bad manager).
By journalist jimmy smith
June 14, 2007 9:00 PM | Link to this
well, salty is something else. everytime they put the camera on salty, salty is making “adjustments” at first base. oh, the humanity! save it for the dugout, salty. and now, if salty plays a good first base this could be the first really good top athlete at first base to come up in this organization. can think of anyone else? earl williams? moved from third, right?
By The Grinch
June 14, 2007 9:01 PM | Link to this
Eric, good catch (pardon the pun); Hudson threw a beauty down the middle on the low end early and it was called a ball. I think he’s playing off that, though with his style he can ill-afford that type of zone. Working so far, anyway.
By N8
June 14, 2007 9:04 PM | Link to this
“buzz wrong, N8! Most overrated is not the same as lost a step!”
“Buzz wrong???”
Please find where I’ve EVER said that he is an overrated CF.
What I SAID WAS: “he’s lost a step”. PERIOD.
I agree with WHY Stark states that Andruw’s lost a step. However I DO NOT agree that he is, was, or will be one of the most “overrated” CF’s.
Thanks for playing, though.
By JasonInMaine
June 14, 2007 9:05 PM | Link to this
Wow, what the heck was Frenchy swinging at? That never had a chance to even get to the plate…it appears the Braves aren’t staying on the ball…Andruw was 3 feet out of the batter’s box when he struck out…but, Johan certainly does that to a lot of people!
By eric the elder
June 14, 2007 9:05 PM | Link to this
Simpson said that Santana made Andruw look bad at the plate. Err . . nah, it’s too easy.
By journalist jimmy smith
June 14, 2007 9:06 PM | Link to this
pythagorean. american league, right?
By TennesseePaul
June 14, 2007 9:06 PM | Link to this
DOB: Thanks for the blog. Stark must regularly read this blog. He’s as long winded as some of us when trying to make a point. Perhaps he is one of us in disguise. If so, it’s a shame he can’t come out and be himself.
If he did show up here, I’d like him to answer a few questions.
Now, does Borass get the counter rebuttle? Should we set up a week long debate with one blog for Stark and the other for Scott and then timed buzzers and measured podiums to keep it all in line?
Salty at first… I can’t see his play so I’d very much be interested in what those who can watch think about his glove work over there.
GO BRAVES
By Chip Caray hater
June 14, 2007 9:07 PM | Link to this
I’m with you Nascar. He is a great fielder, but. The but is, do you want him coming to bat in a clutch situation? NO. How many HOFers can you say that about?
By TPM
June 14, 2007 9:08 PM | Link to this
Shawn Green is the most overpayed and overrated player in the NL East.
By Andruw Neutral
June 14, 2007 9:11 PM | Link to this
N8 If you are going to agree with the guy at least read what he says?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2880979
By Greg in TN
June 14, 2007 9:14 PM | Link to this
Evening folks…
Happy to be back blogging again, should be around a bit more consistently as work is settling down some. Always a joy being able to scan through the Braves/MIB blog.
I guess we should call it “As The Blog Turns” now with point and counterpoint being provided by Bora$ and Stark. BTW, Braveheart, I laughed at the ‘Starking down the blog’ quote. Classic.
Folks I think all of this is an exercise in semantics and nothing more. Bora$ must be seeing dollar signs disappearing from the kitty with each passing day with AJ’s lackluster year at the plate to this point. Add on top of that Mr Stark’s literary work and I can see why the seas are a little rough right now for the good ship SS Bora$.
That being said, Bora$ will likely get his price for AJ. Why? Because there’s always some desperate GM or gullible owner out there who will write the check and hand it over to Bora$ and Associates.
Now to baseball (with a tip of the cap to the scribes and journalists). Really happy with the night so far from Hudson (aside from that mammoth blast from Justin Morneau that thankfully went foul). Glad to have Chipper back and will be watching with interest while Saltalamaccia puts in some work around the first bag.
Good stuff so far from the Hefty Bag tonight, denizens.
By N8
June 14, 2007 9:14 PM | Link to this
NASCARfan
You stated it better than I did, but hit the same point.
YES, let me correct my last comment on the last post.
If “people” are comparing him to HIMSELF in years past, then by default he IS overrated. He simply does not “rate” (compare) to what he used to be.
Having said that, if one were to say: “Andruw is STILL one of the best CF in the game today”. That is NOT a false statement. He is.
Get it? Got it?…..Good.
By eric the elder
June 14, 2007 9:14 PM | Link to this
10Paul, Salty has been fine and looks comfortable. 5-6 putouts, 1 assist on a ground ball.
By The Grinch
June 14, 2007 9:15 PM | Link to this
I’m pretty sure they still take in home runs when they consider HOF status. Regardless of what he’s doing at the moment, when his career’s done Andruw will be considered one of the top three CF’s ever to play the game defensively. Add in the 5-600 or so HR’s he’s likely to amass by then, and you have a winner. Dawson was clutch, no doubt. But he couldn’t carry Andruw’s jock defensively, and his knees gave out before he could pad his HR stats as a DH to give him a legitimate shot at the hall. Andruw is an underachiever, no doubt; but in the end his numbers won’t lie, nor will his highlight reels.
By N8
June 14, 2007 9:16 PM | Link to this
Atta boy, Brian.
By JasonInMaine
June 14, 2007 9:17 PM | Link to this
b-Mac!!!!! there’s the power stroke!
By N8
June 14, 2007 9:19 PM | Link to this
Andruw Neutral
I’ve read it…..twice.
My comments above were based on his email to DOB.
Maybe you should read that, here’s the link:
http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/braves/entries/2007/06/14/saltysat1b_st.html
By Chief Noc-A-Homa fan
June 14, 2007 9:19 PM | Link to this
Old school Braves fan posting on this blog for the first time. Quick comment/question about Andruw’s quote at the end of today’s blog: “Guys are hitting more home runs. Teams have three guys who hit 35 homers in their lineups now. What do you want me to do, go in the stands to get them?”
Forgive my math ignorance, but doesn’t the statistic in question make Andruw’s complaint irrelevant?
That is, if every home game has 27 outs for the visitors, doesn’t that nullify Andruw’s home run argument? Regardless of whether 10 home runs are hit in a game or 0 home runs, there are always 27 outs in a game for the visiting opposition, which means Andruw’s reduced numbers of putouts is unrelated to the number of home runs flying over his head into the stands.
Again, my apologies if I’m missing something mathematically. I’ll go back to lurking this blog.
BTW, nice job with this Braves blog, DOB. Wish you had been around in the 70s, so we could have learned more about Dick Ruthven complaining about Jeff Burroughs’ greyhound-like speed. Or back in the early 80s you could have explained to us the insanity behind the trade of Brett Butler for for that rag-armed Lem Barker from the Indians. (I know it’s “Len.” To this day, I rue the trade of Butler for that Lemon.)
By Carolina Lady
June 14, 2007 9:20 PM | Link to this
jjs, there’s no help for crow. None. Just like AJ and the low, outside pitch.
The Vermont fire incident - I heard on CNN that it had something to do with lack of a permit for large fires - something like that.
By eric the elder
June 14, 2007 9:23 PM | Link to this
It looks to me like a lot of our guys are swinging at Santana’s reputation. Many of these Ks are on pitches that were never strikes from mound to plate.
By Matthew Cafaro
June 14, 2007 9:26 PM | Link to this
I’ve always loved Andruw for what he’s brought to the field. Now I love him doubly for what he’s bringing to the plate. We can only hope that this year, he steals some more bases. I know that Bobby is terrible about not manufacturing runs, that he waits for the 3-run homer, but it would be nice to see Andruw go 40-40. He has the ability. Someone who can glide around center like that should have no problem stealing one base every four games.
Andruw has 5 tools. He’s finaly using 4 of them. He can steal bases. He just plays for the worst manager possible when it comes to playing national league baseball and manufacturing runs. I think something like that, stealing more bases, can put him far over the hump and into Mays territory. Yeah, his average will never be Mays-ian. But his defense is better, and that smooth stroke can hit about 40 homeruns every year for the next 10. And stealing bases shouldn’t hurt him all that much, if at all.
What is Andruw Jones but a revolutionary at his position? All those catches that Edmonds makes look spectacular? Andruw Jones can make those catches in his sleep, and because he makes them look pedestrian, he doesn’t get on Baseball Tonight Web Gems, but Edmonds does. Andruw Jones is THE centerfielder. He is the best ever, there is none better. The magic he performs out there has spoiled everyone. There is such a thing as making something look too easy. When you do that, people come to think of the amazing as fairly commonplace, which Andruw has made us all do. I’d like to see more of the catches that Andruw makes look easy on Baseball Tonight, than those same catches made to look hard by Jim Edmonds. Who’s with me on that one? And while I understand you guy’s position on Jones and stealing bases, I’m sticking to my guns. If he can be a 40-40 guy, why isn’t he? Most of that blame should fall at Cox’s feet. The man wouldn’t know how to manufacture a run if he had a gun pointed at his head. Good thing that we’ve always had those “3-run homer” guys.
By TennesseePaul
June 14, 2007 9:27 PM | Link to this
Ah, one last question, which I should have posted originally, it would have summed it all up.
If AJ is over rated, shouldn’t he have been consistantly lacking, or falling behind everyone else yet still percieved to be great? The basis is there are 100 balls a year that Andruw used to catch that he wasn’t catching anymore. So he used to be properly rated, and now he is over rated?
NICE McCANN!!
By A-ville Ranger
June 14, 2007 9:30 PM | Link to this
Two critical cogs in the Bravos mobile look good so far tonight. McCann and Hudson need to shine the rest of the way to gave a strong push towards the postseason.I don’t know Stark from Starkweather but I know what a snake Bor-a$$ is so I’m staying out of this one.
By Braveheart
June 14, 2007 9:31 PM | Link to this
Chief Noc-A-Homa fan
the most outrageous trade made by the Braves was trading nocahoma for political correctness.
By Shaun
June 14, 2007 9:31 PM | Link to this
Here’s the Zone Rating critique:
Zone Rating asigns zones but because of positioning of fielders, etc. it doesn’t take into account balls a player catches outside of his zone.
John Dewan, the inventor of Zone Rating, acknowledged this and came up with an updated version. He also created something called Plus/Minus, which uses video analysis and takes into account trajectory, ball speed, player positioning, etc.
Dewan’s research shows that Jones was still one of the top centerfielders in baseball from 2003-2006.
All this is basically summing up an argument made by JC Bradbury a few weeks ago on his website, sabermomics.com. I won’t take credit for digging into the research myself. It’s clear that Bradbury is not just offering up his opinion. He actually looked into Zone Rating and what the most up-to-date defensive research indicates about Andruw.
I understand where Stark is coming from and I’m sure he talked to plenty of very intelligent baseball people, more intelligent than most of us.
In fairness to Stark, who knows if he wrote the Andruw part of his book before the newest ways to evaluate defense came out? (It would be interesting to hear, if you know DOB.)
Als, in fairness to Stark, based on what Bradbury points out from Dewan’s latest research, it seems that it’s quite possible Andruw went from historically great to just great in recent years, which is probably what is going on.
Again, I applaud Stark for going out on a limb and writing a book he knew he’d take heat for. I guess my beef is that it seems a lot of people probably do realize Andruw probably has slowed down a step but he’s still one of the best fielders in the game, which seems to be the truth. I’m sure he’s overrated by some but is public perception (at least from avid fans) really that different than reality? I’m not so sure.
By P-Town Brave
June 14, 2007 9:32 PM | Link to this
Is it just me or does Andruw make more contact w/ the opposing teams catcher than the ball most of the time?!
By StingerSplash
June 14, 2007 9:32 PM | Link to this
The eminent Mr. Stark fails to remember how good Brian Asselstine could have been, had he not broken his ankle early in his career. He was never the same. Dude could cover ground. Really.
By N8
June 14, 2007 9:33 PM | Link to this
*”Many of these Ks are on pitches that were never strikes from mound to plate.”
You mean like the entire NL did for a decade against Maddux and Glavine.
On a side note: If Andrw hit the ball as far out, as he does UP, he’d be on to something.
HEY ANDRUW….How about you try and keep BOTH hands on the bat.
a) You might make better contact.
b) ML catchers will like you more.
By The Grinch
June 14, 2007 9:33 PM | Link to this
Awwwwwwwww……look. They put a band-aid on his boo-boo. How sweet. This settles the McCann/Mauer debate right there; Brian wouldn’t allow that %^#@.
By TennesseePaul
June 14, 2007 9:33 PM | Link to this
Eric the Elder: Thanks for the update.
Payne: This does not compute! JS said Salty is a catcher and only a catcher. Nothing but a catcher. A catcher that could bring back AA pitchers in a trade…
By Chip Caray hater
June 14, 2007 9:34 PM | Link to this
“wow, look at that welt,” says Chip. That was a skin fold, dumbass. He got cut, no welt.
Chippy probably has never had a welt in his cushy life.
By N8
June 14, 2007 9:36 PM | Link to this
Here’s a good trivia question for those NOT watching on FSN on the Twins broadcast. If you just heard the answer, keep it to yourself please.
Name the last switch-hitter to win the MVP of the World Series.
Good luck.
By David O'Brien
June 14, 2007 9:37 PM | Link to this
Santana’s already thrown 90 pitches with two out in the sixth….
How ‘bout Hoss with the SB there? Old man can still run when he’s healthy.
By TennesseePaul
June 14, 2007 9:39 PM | Link to this
Gameplan: Run up the pitch count.
Call it a success. 90+ pitches through 5.2
WAY TO GO DIAZ!!
By A-ville Ranger
June 14, 2007 9:39 PM | Link to this
Did any of you read the article on Jake Peavy in SI this week ? There’s a guy I could pull for.Too bad he’s not a Brave.He dropped Bor-a* because he didn’t like his style,knowing it probably cost him millions.He’s one refreshing kid.That’s the first run Chipper’s scored since I was a small child.Well it does seem that way.
By Braveheart
June 14, 2007 9:42 PM | Link to this
In response to Robert from the last blog, I was a big Leo fan. However, maybe the legend of leo was just a myth. maybe he was just a legend in his own mind and because he promoted himself so well and so actively, we all bought into the egomaniac? i don’t know. that is kind of simplistic. i always thought he was great but when you look back at it, outside of the Big 3, was he?
He can not really take credit for having those big three HOF pitchers. That is like the career services at whatever school boasting that the top 10% of the class got jobs over $100K upon graduation and that the top 25% got good jobs upon graduation as well. Newsflash, career services, they were getting those jobs without you anyway. Tell me what you did with the the middle 50% or even the struggling kids from 75 to 90%. That is what the alumni and taxpayers are paying you to do.
What was the accomplishments of the man with the future young studs of our team who should be our top pitchers right now?
Schmidt - got traded for Neagle which was understandable (sort of), but the kid struggled under the tutelage of Leo. Would have been nice to have him for the last 10 years. Leo did not do much for the team or for the kid when he was here.
Odalis - a thick headed player with a thick headed pitching coach butting heads the entire time. The kid never realized his talent here. To be fair though Odalis has seemed to have problems with head butting authority figures elsewhere as well.
Marquis - stubborn kid pitcher with stubborn pitching coach. does not realize talent here and leaves for modest success elsewhere.
Bruce Chen - never realizes talent here under the tutelage of Leo. never realized much anywhere else either but if the pitching coach was so great wouldn’t Leo have helped Chen maybe tap into that talent during his formative years?
Avery - unable to prevent one of the oddest flameouts in baseball history for such a great young pitcher. Shouldn’t a great pitching coach have been able to figure something out? Maybe it was just inevitable anyway.
Rocker - completely unable to prevent one of the most spectacular flameouts from a great young pitcher and completely unable to harness and humble the kid and keep him in check. an unfortunate early demise. alas, might have been inevitable anyway.
Millwood - did he really make Millwood a better pitcher? or did Millwood with tremendous talent never become the dominant pitcher he should have been under a supposed great pitching coach?
Paul Byrd - did Leo do anything with Byrd during his early years? Did not seem like it. Byrd later became a serviceable MLB starter elsewhere.
Mark Wohlers - wouldn’t a great pitching coach been able to prevent one of the great flameouts of a great talented young pitcher? maybe inevitable anyway.
Damian Moss - had success his one year here but that seemed to me to be more attributable to Tom Glavine talking to Moss between innings of every start. Glavine, just from a fan’s perspective watching the games on television, seemed to be more of a pitching coach for Moss than Leo. Plus, why was Moss traded away after one decent rookie season? Did the kid have personal problems or did Leo give up on the kid? Maybe Moss had personal problems or something because he never did anything afterwards or maybe being given up on early in his career messed him up mentally. Or maybe they traded Moss because his true pitching coach Glavine left and signed with the Mets. seems like another example of a strong willed dude (but maybe at the same time weak minded) butting heads with a strong willed taskmaster pitching coach. maybe this was all but inevitable as well. another young shooting star that burned out too quickly.
Horacio Ramirez - seemed to do well with Horam but did Horam ever become better than his rookie year under Leo? maybe this was all but inevitable as well because of injuries and because Horam may not be anything more than mediocre. but was Horam’s conditioning top notch? did not look like it. perhaps coach leo should have stressed that more.
I don’t know. the more you look back, the more you start to realize that maybe he was better with helping old vets find some lost magic - although it seems that most of the vets did not really pitch all that well - they just did what old vets are supposed to do as #4 and #5 starters - have ERAs in the 4s and win a little more than half the time when you have the big 3 winning 65% of their starts.
By Lew
June 14, 2007 9:43 PM | Link to this
Now Now JJs and Ma’am-You both know I can’t have cake on my diet (which may well help me live to that 100 years DOB suggested). I’ll just have to imagine the conflagration with my third eye. As far as Jayson Stark’s rebuttal. I, too feel that Andruw is not the same player at 30 he was at 20, but Overrated means Overrated, no matter how you try to spin it. If he wanted to impart the impression he espouses in his rebuttal, he should have worded it differently.
By NASCARfan
June 14, 2007 9:43 PM | Link to this
N8, thanks man. Chip Carey hater, I know, right? Seriously, who doesn’t dread Andruw coming up with runners on? I pray for a SO from him in that situation instead of his patented DP. Hey, Matthew Cafaro, there’s some person trolling around these blogs who’s absolutely obsessed with you and thinks you’re me. Dude, I don’t know what you did to p** this Troll off, but he or she is absolutely obsessed with you. Is it an ex boyfriend or girlfriend, dude? ‘Cause that’s the only thing I can think of. Otherwise, why would someone Troll these blogs like that, waste that much of their time, acting like a crazy, obsessed stalker? You need to get your house in order, man, ‘cause I’m sick and tired of people Trolling on me, accusing me of being you.
By journalist jimmy smith
June 14, 2007 9:44 PM | Link to this
andruw has hit more catchers this year than baseballs. soon, will be revealed what chad paronto keeps in chad paronto’s locker. journalist will go out on a limb and say krispy kremes and cheez doodles. and pants - big pants. also some valvoline to make the ball dip. and some dip and a chaw. mentioned dip twice, right?
By Jack
June 14, 2007 9:45 PM | Link to this
To Mr. Boras——I once had a client who was fond of saying figures dont lie. My stock answer was thats correct but Liers figure.
By Lew
June 14, 2007 9:45 PM | Link to this
In other words-Mr. Stark will not win a Wurlitzer for his overrated comments. However, he is welcome to try again. The Wurlitzer Selection Committee is ever vigilant.
By BirdDawg
June 14, 2007 9:45 PM | Link to this
Chipper, Chipper, Chipper. Me thinks thou is starting to show thou’s age. Bat looks slow. Francoeur, well, I predicted this will happen. He’s just way too undisciplined, and unless Terry pulls him aside, or Bobby sets him in favor of Johnson as punishment for a week or two, I don’t think he’ll ever change. He’s going to be more frustrating than Andruw ever was if they don’t fix him. That was the problem with Andruw, they didn’t force him to change when they should have. They let him keep on with his bad habits, and I see the same thing happening with Jeff. In this, Cox is the wrong manager for Francoeur. He nor his coaches are going to force him to better himself, to get any discipline. He’s going to have to make this decision himself.
It looks like Salty may be getting some time at first, and if he can’t make the transfer, I don’t know what Schuerholtz will do.
This team though, needs to fix the pitching. It is terrible right now. Why does Schuerholtz believe this team can go anywhere (the World Series) with a rent-a-rotation? He’s supposed to be a smart man. Smart men learn from their mistakes. It’s been 14 years, and Schuerholtz still hasn’t learning his lesson.
By eric the elder
June 14, 2007 9:46 PM | Link to this
N8, I’ll give you Glavine, but the genious of Maddux was that his pitches looked like strikes and then disappeared.
Chip Carey hater, don’t care for Chip much, but the ump was heard to say to Mauer, “You are bleeding all over the place.”
By Oh My
June 14, 2007 9:48 PM | Link to this
Good to have Chipper back. Yesterday 3-4 and today 2 walks with a SB to allow himself to score on a 2 out double.
By tim
June 14, 2007 9:49 PM | Link to this
If players don’t deserve to be in the hall of fame for defense then ozzie smith wouldn’t be there either. I think that ozzie smith was one of the greatest ss to play the game and definitely belongs in the Hall.(and not for his offense)I don’t know of any other center fielder that consistently takes hits away. I’m not saying that he has the range of when he was 19 but who does. Would this headline make for a good book. Outfielder not as fast at 30 as he was at 19. If you talk about overrated than you talk about peoples perceptions of someone. Who here thinks andruw is a .330 hitter that has great discipline at the plate? Nobody that knows anything about baseball. I don’t think Starks did his research on what people think of andruw jones so he has no basis for saying he is overrated. Starks is overrated because I thought he was a good baseball writer until he wrote this “headline getting” piece of s**.
By TennesseePaul
June 14, 2007 9:51 PM | Link to this
Braveheart: Sheeeeesh! lol. I think Leo was good, but Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz also did some coaching by example. Part of the reason teams desire Maddux is because he benefits the other pitchers on the team. Like Jake Peavy of the Padres this season.
I don’t know, just sayin’. I didn’t get into any of Robert’s posts so I truly have no frame of reference here.
Hudson is dealing tonight. Just straight up pitching like a bad @ss! Can’t see it on a TV, but watching the numbers pile up is amazing enough. 67 pitches through 6 innings. 2K’s, 11 ground balls, no walks and only 2 hits. Crazy!
GO BRAVES
By Shaun
June 14, 2007 9:51 PM | Link to this
TennesseePaul,
Yes, Schuerholz did say, according to DOB, that they see Salty as a catcher. Just because he’s playing first tonight doesn’t mean they don’t see him as a catcher in the big leagues.
As I said before, it seems like maybe they would want Salty to play first if he can, giving other teams the impression they are willing to keep him and trying to drive up the trade offers.
Who knows? I suspect they would prefer trading him if there is a good one out there but are prepared to keep him if for some reason they can’t get the players they want.
And Double-A pitchers aren’t always going to be Double-A pitchers. Particularly if they are ranked among the Top 100 prospects in all of baseball at any position and play for an organization that seems to be developing pitchers pretty well these days.
I know obviously not all top 100 prospects become major leaguers but really, it’s more than you may think. Seriously, look at the results:
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/26983.html
By Matthew At The SLC
June 14, 2007 9:52 PM | Link to this
The Braves and their players reflect their manager.
There is a reason why Andruw Jones has always been an almost player. An if only player. A but players.
He should have been one of the greats, but because Bobby Cox is his manager, he’s simply one of the goods. Same with Furcal, who should have been the Ichiro of the NL, but instead became a lead off hitter who thinks he’s a cleanup hitter.
Bobby Cox is the link to everything in this organization. From the regular season wins to the colossal playoff collapses to players who had and have the talent to be great but who, for some reason (Bobby’s coddling), never reach their expectations.
If Derek Jeter played for the Braves, he wouldn’t be Derek Jeter. He’d be Andruw Jones or Rafael Furcal or Jeff Francour.
By Lew
June 14, 2007 9:54 PM | Link to this
Bird Dawg-Think that slow bat may be from wearing casts and not swinging a bat for three weeks?
By A-ville Ranger
June 14, 2007 9:55 PM | Link to this
Braveheart the Leo stuff is just nonsense.It’s really the same argument as with BC.You know a great thing about baseball is it’s quantifiable.What was it 12 strait seasons 1st or 2nd in era ? Yea it was all a figment of our collective imaginations.
By Chip Caray hater
June 14, 2007 9:55 PM | Link to this
eric, I guess you don’t know the difference between a welt and a cut, either.
By OVERLORD
June 14, 2007 9:59 PM | Link to this
hey matthew i agree with you on that last comment about bobby cox and the players development.
By Josh
June 14, 2007 9:59 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB,
Posted this awhile ago but figured I’d mention it again. I’m a lifelong Atlanta fan, grew up in Gwinnett County and went to Dacula High. Been in Cleveland four years now, transferred at work. Anyhow, I’m taking my boy to all three games this weekend. We’ll be there for BP tomorrow. Two things- 1) Do they have BP normally on Saturday 4pm games and 2) Can’t figure out how to e-mail you. I’d love to say hello while you’re in town (told you before too we’d treat the rock hall as well, if you had time). Thanks for all you do. Hopefully we won’t be on a losing streak coming into town…
By Josh
June 14, 2007 9:59 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB,
Posted this awhile ago but figured I’d mention it again. I’m a lifelong Atlanta fan, grew up in Gwinnett County and went to Dacula High. Been in Cleveland four years now, transferred at work. Anyhow, I’m taking my boy to all three games this weekend. We’ll be there for BP tomorrow. Two things- 1) Do they have BP normally on Saturday 4pm games and 2) Can’t figure out how to e-mail you. I’d love to say hello while you’re in town (told you before we’d treat the rock hall as well, if you had time). Thanks for all you do. Hopefully we won’t be on a losing streak coming into town…
By Lew
June 14, 2007 10:00 PM | Link to this
Isn’t it interesting and a testament to the popularity of The Man In Black/BBQ/Pie Blog that famous Superagents and National Media Personalities choose this forum to carry on their arguments. Point-Counterpoint with DOB-Where The Big Boys Fight. Good T Shirt slogan
By Marine Recon
June 14, 2007 10:02 PM | Link to this
As long as that incompetant fool Bobby Cox keeps on running out the same old tired line-up night after night after night, nothing will ever change in Atlanta.
And now you won’t have a Division Title to “prove” Cox’s “greatness.” Talk about the most overrated manager in the history of the game, Bobby Cox is. The guys never get it done when their team really needs them to pull their heads out of their rear orafices and actually manage a game. Cox has been able to cruise through regular season after regular season on the strength of an awesome GM and a crappy division.
Now that the GM’s hands are tied and the division’s competant, Cox is being exposed for being the biggest fraud in the history of sports this side of Barry Bonds.
Yeah, players love him because he’ll keep on running those same unemotional has-beens out their night after night. Ozzie Guillen or Mike Scoisca, or any competant manager would have torn up the line-up card, found a place for Salty two months ago, sat Andruw when he stoppped listening to the hitting coach.
But Cox isn’t competant. He’s the absolute pinacle of imcompetance. It used to be that October was his time to fall flat on his face. Now we see him for the fraud he is.
By OVERLORD
June 14, 2007 10:02 PM | Link to this
paul, you are right……tim has lots of movement tonight…….good live fastball. hope he wakes up for some weeks to come
By Jon
June 14, 2007 10:02 PM | Link to this
Andrew is overrated but he is a very very good player. Now someone needs to write a book and say how Bobby Cox is the most overrated manager of all time….and there is not but…
By Braveheart
June 14, 2007 10:04 PM | Link to this
I am going to have a Mazzoneesque egomaniacal moment right now and make a confession. I am the trusty old scout that Stark says was the lil’ birdie chirping in his ear. Reading his article about Andruw reminded me of something I once posted on here months ago. So, I did a little research and found that me and TenPaul were engaged in a debate back in February and this is what I wrote:
By braveheart February 19, 2007 08:58 PM | Link to this tenpaul: sorry to get all shaun on you now but these are the numbers for andruw’s putouts since 1998: 1998 - 413; 1999 - 493; 2000 - 439; 2001 - 461; 2002 - 404; 2003 - 390; 2004 - 389; 2005 - 365; 2006 - 378. there has been a 115 putout difference since he was the skinny little kid diving all over the park in 1999 to the fat slower guy out there in center. no wonder chipper remarked that andruw needed to drop weight. his range factor per 9 innings as opposed to the league average range factor per 9 innings is as follows since 2000: 2000 - 2.82-2.64; 2001 - 2.95 - 2.59; 2002 - 2.71 - 2.57; 2003 - 2.70 - 2.50; 2004 - 2.67 - 2.53; 2005 - 2.58 -2.61; 2006 - 2.60 - 2.58. where he was once much better than the competition, he is just merely average in his range these days with the balls he catches per 9 innings. these are the amount of balls, he has caught in his zone since 1996: 1996 - 91%; 1997 - 91%; 1998 - 92%; 1999 - 90%; 2000 - 88%; 2001 - 89%; 2002 - 88%; 2003 - 84%; 2004 - 84%; 2005 - 88%; 2006 - 85%. does not seem like a big dropoff but these slight percentages really do cause a big dropoff - more balls are landing in center than they used to.
Yep, I’m an egomaniac and a trusty old scout who has been plagiarized. Still don’t think Andruw is overrated. Just think he is not the superhuman he used to be is all. Just a great mortal now.
By JasonInMaine
June 14, 2007 10:05 PM | Link to this
Is there a lefty that Diaz can’t hit? He has two more hits tonight against Santana!
By JasonInMaine
June 14, 2007 10:07 PM | Link to this
Man, I really hope Hoss can stay healthy the rest of the year. The Braves are just soooo much better when he is in the lineup.
By tim
June 14, 2007 10:08 PM | Link to this
good to have chipper back in the lineup. if you don’t give leo any credit for the good pitchers why make him take blame for the pitchers that didn’t turn out great
By OVERLORD
June 14, 2007 10:08 PM | Link to this
today is the clear example that we could easily win the east just with 3 players playing to their potential.
smoltz
chipper
hudson
By StingerSplash
June 14, 2007 10:08 PM | Link to this
Since when did Chuck Wepner catch for the Twins?
By Chip Caray hater
June 14, 2007 10:09 PM | Link to this
Nascar, Mathew Cafaro is Birddawg.
By JasonInMaine
June 14, 2007 10:09 PM | Link to this
Just one question…how many other teams have a cleanup hitter that is batting .215?
I don’t think I have to to extensive research…I will make an educated guess…0!
By eric the elder
June 14, 2007 10:10 PM | Link to this
Carey hater, I only reported what the umpire said. Don’t fire your hate at the messenger.
By A-ville Ranger
June 14, 2007 10:10 PM | Link to this
I know who I want at 1st next season Chipper.We need him in the lineup and he’s just too brittle for 3rd these days.Left is an option but the pounding on them feets would take a toll.
By Braveheart
June 14, 2007 10:10 PM | Link to this
This game tonight is pitching at its best. Think about how spoiled we were when we used to yawn at this kind of performance on a nightly basis.
Tenpaul and Aville, the point is well taken. I don’t really wholly believe that Leo rant just like I don’t wholly believe the incessant Robert Donk rants or the Stark overrated Andruw rants. There are arguments to be made each way as to all, the truth is really in the middle leaning heavily towards the greatness of all three. BTW, my Leo rant was in response to Robert saying that Bobby’s success was directly attributable to Leo and the Braves failure last year was due to Bobby being without Leo.
By Bob
June 14, 2007 10:11 PM | Link to this
Stark has a reasonable argument to say that Andruw isn’t as good as used to be. But absolutely NOTHING he said would confirm his conclusion that he is THE MOST OVERATED CENTERFIELDER EVER. That is the damn topic, not whether or not Andruw is as good as he used to be because Jayson Stark chose the subject.
Speaking of Andruw, since the AL gets to have the DH, why can’t the Braves have the DF? I mean the way Andruw is NOT HITTING, we should be able to use him only as a designated fielder and have someone else (not named Orr or Woodward) bat for him.
By NASCARfan
June 14, 2007 10:13 PM | Link to this
And by the way y’all, if you EVER see Matthew At The SLC post on these blogs anymore, please understand that that person is NOT Matthew At The SLC. I let the person have that name, because the Troll seemed to want it so much, but that person is NOT Matthew At The SLC. So if you ever see Matthew At The SLC, please pay them no attention. It’s a Troll. And for those of y’all who don’t know, a Troll is someone who goes on message boards and blogs, especially anonymous blogs, who take over other people’s names and generally try to stir up s—t. The AJC doesn’t seem to be doing anything to take care of the Trolls who troll these boards, but y’all can ignore them.
By tim
June 14, 2007 10:15 PM | Link to this
Does anybody know when renteria is signed until?
By OVERLORD
June 14, 2007 10:15 PM | Link to this
its amaizing how chipper can make it look so easy to hit rincon and then comes andrew and he kssssssssssssss and sits down laughing. then comes jeff and not been a veteran its was not so easy for him but he also gets a hit. Im sure AJ is not gonna be here next year. I wouldnt mind seen harris at cf next and keep diaz at lf and bring some rookie up for backup.
By jmm
June 14, 2007 10:17 PM | Link to this
Dave, The lyric is “for the press.” What a great song. What a great band. Although The Mats could be hit or miss live. My band opened for them after Tim came out and — while we generally stunk — we were better than them that night. On the other hand, I saw them after Pleased To Meet Me and that night, they were the best band on the planet. I still get chills thinking about it.
By the way, is Stinny related to Tommy and Bob Stinson?
By JasonInMaine
June 14, 2007 10:18 PM | Link to this
Is Hudson injured or what? I am not watching the game!
By Bob
June 14, 2007 10:18 PM | Link to this
Marine Recon,
We will take you as the expert on Bobby Cox and ignore all the GMs, Managers and other veterans in MLB. I am ready to buy into your theory, but only after I have seen your resume.
Urrrahh
By Glass Half Full (GHF)
June 14, 2007 10:21 PM | Link to this
DOB
If/when the Braves don’t bring back Wickman in 2008, is it reasonable to assume that Soriano is the man at least until Gonzo returns and perhaps even after his return?
By Matthew Cafaro
June 14, 2007 10:21 PM | Link to this
NASCARfan please keep may name out of your redneck posts like I have kept you out of mine. The only person I see here trolling me is you. I don’t make any allegations about your sexuality so don’t make any accusations about mine. What are you trying to do ask me out? Well you are not my type, sorry. Let me also suggest you worry about keeping your own house in order and quit worrying about mine. I used to post here all the time but left because of idiots like you and as soon as I come back, the idiots like you crawl right back out from under your rock.
By Chip Caray hater
June 14, 2007 10:21 PM | Link to this
eric, all I can say is…. am I supposed to teach reading comprehension here? Sorry, I don’t care about your intellectual development that much.
By tim
June 14, 2007 10:21 PM | Link to this
If Hudson is getting a lot of ground ball outs you know he is pitching well. We needed a good game out of him. Hopefully he can string a lot of games like this in a row
By Drummerdad
June 14, 2007 10:22 PM | Link to this
JJS, Another way to look at Salty’s adjustments is by the name of the “team meeting”. It is important for a person who is constantly moving to have his body parts be in agreement each other. “Integrated movement” if you will. The personal team meeting is, as you well know, a long standing tradition in baseball. Tennis players also embrace the team meeting philosophy. the difference is that baseball players have extraneous teammates they can send signals to while conducting the personal team meeting.
By NASCARfan
June 14, 2007 10:22 PM | Link to this
Well, whomever he is, it doesn’t matter to me. Like I said, I used to have another name but got tired of being trolled. I don’t give a rat’s behind who Matthew Cafaro is or who BirdDawg is, I was just sick and tired of this Troll saying I was him because I had the misfortune of sharing a very popular first name with him.
By MBATL
June 14, 2007 10:23 PM | Link to this
Jason, Hudson’s sitting in the dugout watching the game, not getting any medical attention. Looked like Bobby just saw something he didn’t like, and pulled him, which was probably wise anyway. No indication on tv that Hudson’s hurt.
By journalist jimmy smith
June 14, 2007 10:23 PM | Link to this
braves clean-up hitter tonight has struck out twice and left 4 on base. did not run out a ball hit to no man’s land in short right field. drop andruw in the lineup and let somebody drive in some runs instead of killing rallies.
By A-ville Ranger
June 14, 2007 10:23 PM | Link to this
Marine recon What incompetent fool taught you to spell ?
By OVERLORD
June 14, 2007 10:24 PM | Link to this
i hope tim was taken out as a precaution mesure.
By eric the elder
June 14, 2007 10:24 PM | Link to this
Jason, Hudson pointed to the back of his neck, like maybe a little nerve pinch or something. Doesn’t look serious.
By tim
June 14, 2007 10:24 PM | Link to this
jasoninmaine…i think he was just getting a little stiff and bobby took him out to be on the safe side. he was in the dugout watching and nobody was checking on him so I think he’s fine
By journalist jimmy smith
June 14, 2007 10:28 PM | Link to this
Ranger, take a tole. not toll. tole. :-)
By Glass Half Full (GHF)
June 14, 2007 10:28 PM | Link to this
TIM
Renteria is signed through 2008 with an $11 million club option for 2009.
By BirdDawg
June 14, 2007 10:30 PM | Link to this
NASCARfan I don’t know who you are but please don’t include me in your trolls either. Last I read this is a blog about the Braves and not about me or Mr. Cafaro. Please stay on subject and leave me out of your posts unless I address you first.
By JasonInMaine
June 14, 2007 10:30 PM | Link to this
Eric, tim, and MBATL,
Thanks for the info!!
Regards,
Jason
By doc
June 14, 2007 10:31 PM | Link to this
now journalist jimmy smith, leave the kid alone. if you wer out there you would have wet your pants by now down to your toes by now instead of “adjusting” because of a nervous twich.
By A-ville Ranger
June 14, 2007 10:31 PM | Link to this
Hope Hudson’s ok.He’s as big a key as there is to contending.If he’s not pitching like an all star, I don’t see how they stay in it.
By Thrillhouse44
June 14, 2007 10:33 PM | Link to this
Should we post our favorite Santana songs? Tonight’s victory is “All I Ever Wanted”.
“Wilson doesn’t do hitting anymore…” and Stark doesn’t do brief retorts. And I don’t do less than 7 beers.
By eric the elder
June 14, 2007 10:34 PM | Link to this
Is there a full moon tonight? What’s with these paranoid, hateful people who decided to show up here?
G’nite, all. See you in Cleveland.
By BILLY BROWN!!!
June 14, 2007 10:35 PM | Link to this
Is it just me or does Kelly Johnson lead the league in flyouts to left?
By N8
June 14, 2007 10:36 PM | Link to this
This has much more to do with his pure dominance, more than Wickman’s ability. But I’m gonna venture to say it AGAIN.
I would feel much more comfortable with Soriano as the closer.
But since we’ll probably let Wick go after this year, I guess I’ll get my wish soon enough.
Besides, we’ll get Gonzalez back late next year, and that will be “just like” adding a big name free agent in mid-season. :-)
By Chip Caray hater
June 14, 2007 10:37 PM | Link to this
“Overrated” one might say, journalist jimmy smith. Dead meat at cleanup.
By Berigan
June 14, 2007 10:39 PM | Link to this
WHY THE F* DO THE BRAVES NOT GUARD THE LINE???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
HOW MANY TIMES HAVE THE BRAVES BEEN BURNED THIS WAY???? REAL TEAMS GUARD THE LINE LATE, AND THERE HAVE BEEN TWO HITS THAT WOULDN’T HAVE BEEN HITS IF WE HAD THE 3RD BASEMAN ON THE LINE!!!! DAMM!!!!!!!
By N8
June 14, 2007 10:41 PM | Link to this
Two points of mine we’re proven with that Wickman pitch.
a) The above post referring to me feeling more comfy with Soriano as the closer.
and
b) That pitch is EXACTLY what I’m talking about with “defensive alignment” and pitch selection and execution.
WHY ON EARTH would you shift your outfield around towards RF, would you deliver a pitch down and in?
Or maybe Diaz couldn’t get to that ball, because he’s considerably more OVERRATED on defense than he was in the 1st inning? :-)
By TennesseePaul
June 14, 2007 10:41 PM | Link to this
Braveheart: Wow. That’s what all that was about? Glad I skipped over his posts.
Singles on a ground ball to first base???? What happened?
By JasonInMaine
June 14, 2007 10:41 PM | Link to this
That’s just unfortunate…having the ball find Salty in a big situation…
By journalist jimmy smith
June 14, 2007 10:43 PM | Link to this
nope, not doc. doc can string words together and make complete sentences. what has happened to the neighborhood today?
oh, the humanity! will we see the twins steal a run?
By Glass Half Full (GHF)
June 14, 2007 10:46 PM | Link to this
Hang this one of the D.
By TennesseePaul
June 14, 2007 10:46 PM | Link to this
Ouch. That rookie infield is showing itself.
By Drummerdad
June 14, 2007 10:46 PM | Link to this
Another word about the team meeting. Closely connected to the team meeting in baseball is the long embraced art and practice of expectoration. Roseanne Barr poorly demonstrated this for us in San Diego back in the early ‘90’s.
By Berigan
June 14, 2007 10:47 PM | Link to this
Was that McCann’s fault as much at Escobar??? Cox said “unbelievable” in the dugout….
By Blanco
June 14, 2007 10:47 PM | Link to this
Escobar to replace Chipper?
I don’t think so. Two BAD plays in the ninth to let the Twins tie it up. Too bad - spoiled a teriffic outing by Hudson.
By StingerSplash
June 14, 2007 10:47 PM | Link to this
This team is now finding new ways to lose. Good thing Glavine’s not pitching, because Redmond absolutely owns him. This last week and a half and really two weeks is far, far too reminiscent of last June. And last June s*&#ed.
By tim
June 14, 2007 10:47 PM | Link to this
s**. i think soriano should be the closer
By Chad
June 14, 2007 10:47 PM | Link to this
oh well… i guess we’ll have to wait till Cleveland and try to win the ballgame somehow.
By Chip Caray hater
June 14, 2007 10:48 PM | Link to this
well f***
By Matthew At The SLC
June 14, 2007 10:48 PM | Link to this
Matthew Cafaro (nice first name by the way) and BirdDawg, don’t give this troll NASCARfan any of the attention he seems to crave. He has been on here for a while mocking me and stealing my name making idiotic posts. Now he changes his name but he continues to try to steal my identity. All he does is troll on everyone by making crude remarks. I think he chose “NASCARfan” to mock those of us who truly appreciate NASCAR racing considering the vulgar things he has said under my name about the late great Dale Sr. Everyone please ignore this troll NASCARfan and everything he says about me. If anything crude, stupid, or vulgar is said under my name please be reassured it is him and please direct your anger to him accordingly. I could just change my name but I refuse to give him that satisfaction.
By N8
June 14, 2007 10:48 PM | Link to this
POINT completely proven. Closers who allow contact aren’t ever gonna make me feel safe.
Wick has been great, and some of this inning is not his fault. But COME ON, in the name of Greg McMichael get a damn K once in a while.
Thrillhouse44
“Tonight’s victory is “All I Ever Wanted”.”
Spoke a little too soon didn’t you.
I shut my mouth ALL NIGHT long, because Salty was at 1B, Hudson looked good, and we actually scored 2 runs off of Santana.
BUT AINT NONE OF YOU that are gonna convince me that this season is DONE!
Devastating loss. This team has no concept of how to win anymore.
By A-ville Ranger
June 14, 2007 10:48 PM | Link to this
McCann makes too many mistakes these days.This team has too many weak links.A hobbled third baseman,a first time starter at first.This season was changed tonight. DAMN !!
By NASCARfan
June 14, 2007 10:49 PM | Link to this
Dude, get a freaking life, you and Cafaro. I didn’t say anything against either of y’all in any of my blogs. Just saying I’m tired of people telling me I’m him. Chip Carey hater says you’re him, too. So why are you keying on me? Let me guess, you’re the same troll from last night on the Schultz Little E blog, right? I’m not an idiot dude. You can play your moron games, but we were having a pretty good debate until you showed up. How retarded do you have to be to troll blogs and waste copious amounts of time pretending to be someone else for the sake of what? Your own amusement? Dude, your obsession has seriously gone from annoying to creepy. I let you have my handle. So beat it.
Why oh why is Soriano not the closer for this team? Yet another brilliant decision in a long line of brilliant decisions made in Bobby Cox’s career. Bob Wickman doesn’t have half the stuff Soriano does. Bobby Cox refuses to sit Andruw Jones. He refuses to make the better reliever the closer. He really is nothing but a button pusher, except now, he can’t even push the right buttons anymore.
By brian
June 14, 2007 10:49 PM | Link to this
Robert - I hate to say this but you have plenty of reason to go off on this game.
As much as I love seeing Salty at 1B starting tonight (as he should everynight) he should not have been out there in the 9th inning with a slim lead. Defensive replacement???? It was not fair to Salty to be out there at that time.
Second, agree with Berigan - there was no excuse to not have Escobar guarding the line in the 9th. Poor coaching.
Games like this kill morale. The Twins were 0-27 when trailing after the 8th.
Cox should come out and say that this game is on him (just like DOBs favorite basketball coach does when Roy Williams screws up and the team loses, or if he is worried about morale. Roy takes the blame for the loss to deflect it off the players)
By ssiscribe
June 14, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this
I HATE THE FREAKING METRODOME! BLOW THAT DAMN PLACE OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH!
—30—
By Drummerdad
June 14, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this
I don’t know about this team you guys.
By P-Town Brave
June 14, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this
Talk about disheartening…If there were any players who felt confident we’d break the slide before, there probably aren’t now…
My question is, if you’re Bobby Cox, how do you change what is going on…? You can’t just sit in the dugout, use expletives, and scratch your head
By Chad
June 14, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this
some coaches need to be fired like the Dodgers fired their hitting coach, Eddie Murray. It is time for some shake up in the coaching staff.
By JasonInMaine
June 14, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this
I had a bad feeling when our 2nd best pitcher on the team was used for 2 batters…
Folks, this isn’t a good sign. The Braves just continue to find ways to lose even when they finally get a GREAT pitching performance.
Wow, what a really, really tough loss. The two rookies…Salty and Escobar…made bad defensive plays in the inning as well.
Oh well, I am sure everyone will say it is just one game…nothing to worry about…go get ‘em tomorrow.
(sigh)
Call me what you will, but this team just doesn’t have it right now.
Regards,
Jason
By BosnianBaller
June 14, 2007 10:51 PM | Link to this
Season over
By nonnie
June 14, 2007 10:51 PM | Link to this
welcome to the big leagues, boys. haven’t had so much fun watching the Braves since Ted and Jane were in town! Thanks for the sweep, by the way. Love, Nonnie
By journalist jimmy smith
June 14, 2007 10:52 PM | Link to this
oh, the humanity! and on flag day - and on lew’s birthday. and dob is cursing and rewriting like mad. what a waste of good pitching tonight. those runs andruw left on base tonight could have made it a different game. and the defense - hard to blame the guy at first but why didn’t the regular first baseman go in for late inning defense? is it because thorman is not considered a better glove man than a rookie playing there in his first start? oh, this one hurts.
By StingerSplash
June 14, 2007 10:52 PM | Link to this
I really thought they should have let Soriano pitch the ninth and this isn’t after the fact thinking. That was my thought as the 8th ended, since Soriano had thrown just 10 pitches.
By brian20
June 14, 2007 10:53 PM | Link to this
Horrible scoring that was an E2.
By raykelsey
June 14, 2007 10:53 PM | Link to this
unreal. this team is utterly pathetic. looks like they have packed it up for the year.
By The Grinch
June 14, 2007 10:54 PM | Link to this
Wow. Not much else to say about that one. Just wow. If someone finds my testicles on the floor, just mail them back to me. The Braves kicked me about as hard as I can be kicked from a baseball game. Wow. It takes a special kind of dysfunctional bulls%$# going on in general to allow that. I wouldn’t blame Hudson for much of anything from here out after that one. Wow.
By Ron
June 14, 2007 10:54 PM | Link to this
I dont know what to think about this team anymore.
By BILLY BROWN!!!
June 14, 2007 10:54 PM | Link to this
Can someone please tell me why we did’nt have Thorman in the game in the bottom of the 9th??? I know he is the only other catcher, but still with a one run lead in the bottom of the 9th, why did we have a guy making his first ever start at first base in the game when we had Thorman, clearly a better defender, sitting on the bench!!! If Thorman makes that play, Escobar goes to first on the Hunter ground ball and the ballgame is over. Oh, the freakin humanity!!!
By Berigan
June 14, 2007 10:54 PM | Link to this
brian,
You are correct, Thorman should have been in there for the 9th. That was not Wickman’s fault. A single, and a triple past the 3rd baseman is insane in the 9th, most teams guard the line from the 7th on…good teams at least, smart teams….
By N8
June 14, 2007 10:55 PM | Link to this
Jason
“That’s just unfortunate…having the ball find Salty in a big situation…”
It is. But that’s on Bobby. If he’s waited this long to let Salty play at 1B, he was obviously worried about his defense. While he has what appears to be more agility than Thorman, he does (like everybody has said) have less experience. Escobar’s throw left a lot to be desired as well. The defense being shifted THAT far over didn’t help as well. Wickman NOT being able to strike anybody out.
But remember when Klesko was in LF? He was out there FOR HIS BAT. But Bobby NEVER hesitated to pull him for defense late in a game. Especially a 2-0 game when you’ve lost the first 2 games of the series.
He’s gotta get him out of there to start the 9th.
I’m all for Salty starting EVERY game, just to get his bat in there. But this loss is on Bobby and Wickman, IMO.
By tim
June 14, 2007 10:55 PM | Link to this
i’m so p** off right now. 9th inning losses really hurt. 2 hits through 8 innings and still blow it. 3rd place sucks
By brewdawg
June 14, 2007 10:55 PM | Link to this
Wow, eerily like the Marlins game earlier in the year, where Hudson threw great only to have it blown. (Not a knock on Wick, just unfortunate to have such a similar situation arise again). Let’s hope we can get it turned around in Cleveland, because- and I never thought I’d say this- we ARE starting to resemble last June’s team. But like Bobby said about Andruw, I’ll say about the Braves: I won’t give up on them. Never have, never will.
By Greg
June 14, 2007 10:55 PM | Link to this
What the bloody hell was that? Why not substitute Thorman in the ninth for defense? Why is a beer league softball pitcher our closer when Soriano throws laser beams and has proven himself as a lights out closer? Will this team ever win another game?
By Me
June 14, 2007 10:55 PM | Link to this
F’ing losers. McCann’s alligator arms. Diaz playing in RF for some reason. Salty in even though his fielding is weak. Complete and total meltdown by everyone. F’ing losers. Why the hell isn’t Soriano closing, with his heater. I don’t get the Wickman thing.
By Johnny Rocker
June 14, 2007 10:56 PM | Link to this
Bob Wickman as closer is the equivalent to someone like Greg McMicheal as closer: Any junkball pitcher can get hitters out for one inning most of the time. Wickman could never survive as a Starting Pitcher in the big leagues. And my point to this post - Soriano needs to be the closer!!!
By NASCARfan
June 14, 2007 10:56 PM | Link to this
Okay, now we know that the guy saying he’s Cafaro, BirdDawg, and my old name, Matthew At The SLC is all the same person. Seriously, who wastes this kind of time? Who is that sick that they Troll around the AJC blogs like this? Guys on the blog, help me out here, I feel like I’m going crazy.
By A-ville Ranger
June 14, 2007 10:57 PM | Link to this
Braveheart No hard feelings in this corner of the blogg’o’sphere,just a little ventilation.Sorry end to a good game though.Time for some home work,I’ll catch you folks latter.
By Chicken Little
June 14, 2007 10:57 PM | Link to this
Help! Help! The season is over! Help! Help! The season is over! Will they still play the games? Help! Help! The season is over!
By Marine Recon
June 14, 2007 10:58 PM | Link to this
Looks like Bobby Cox managed the team just good enough to snag defeat right out of the jaws of victory.
By Rolltop
June 14, 2007 10:58 PM | Link to this
Were we really 10 or 11 games above .500 a month ago? Never seen a Braves team do this (well, not since 1983).
By BILLY BROWN!!!
June 14, 2007 11:00 PM | Link to this
Can someone please tell me why Thorman was not in the game in the bottom of the 9th? I know Salty is the only other catcher, but with a one run lead in the bottom of the 9th, should’nt you play your best defense??? If Thorman makes the play that Salty botched, Escobar goes to first on the Hunter ground ball, and the Braves win 2-1. Oh the freakin humanity!!!
By Matthew at the SLC
June 14, 2007 11:00 PM | Link to this
Wickman needs to be thrown over a log like Ned Beatty. Sorry closer!
He can join Thugman Vick on the midnight train out of here.
By David
June 14, 2007 11:00 PM | Link to this
What’s really important about tonight’s game is that it reminds me how much I still hate Gene Larkin.
PS: Escobar had to throw high to avoid hitting the runner. That one was on McCann.
By Greg in TN
June 14, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this
Bad bad night tonight. This one hurts.
There will be a day in the not too distant future where folks in Minneapolis will gather ‘round and watch as a demolition team will bring down the ‘ole dome to the ground. Wherever I am on that day, you can count on the fact that I’ll be smiling.
The throw to the plate was the right move by Escobar, but McCann had no chance to make a play. Even if he makes the catch and applies the tag, replays showed that Cuddyer is safe.
By OVERLORD
June 14, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this
wickman soooookkkkkkssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i agree that soriano should be closers. he wont because as far as bc minds dictates wickman got here first and the job is his. He needs to blow some 15 games before he is send to the 7th or 8th inning. This is humiliating. I really think bobby is a very bad manager and i mean it. He is good at a lot of things but:
why not take salty out and bring your better defensive 1b?
his loyalty to wickman becomes a disloyalty to the rest of the team.
how in the world would tim perform as good as today if u put wickman to close his job. wickman is not a dominant pitcher, he is just an good reliever not a closer.
if tim was injuried why didnt the pitcher coach came out, he is supposed to know better or maybe the trainer.
this game was lost by cox as many of the games we have lost
im not sure why is andrew at cleanup again………what did he do yesterday that made bc believe he should hit 4th tonight?????????
i would put andrew 9th even if we were playing nl games just to check if his sick smile was still so big.
Matt diaz should have hit 2nd today as harris did last night.
By snh
June 14, 2007 11:02 PM | Link to this
You can hang it on the defense (which was bad in the 9th) and youth (an awful lot of it at the plate and on the mound), I suppose but as DOB pointed out at the top the team isn’t scoring runs (Two runs the last two games.)I don’t think they will, with any consistency, until the big bat in the cleanup spot hits the ball. With all the youth this team has, a Vet like Andruw Jones simply must deliver on a consistent basis. He’s just not doing the job and you can see the results in the stat book and in the standings. Andruw says he’s not a right field hitter. Lately, he’s not any type a hitter. It’s a very frustrating thing to watch day after day after day.
By P-Town Brave
June 14, 2007 11:02 PM | Link to this
True but in hindsight Wickman still did give up 4 hits, which was 2 more hits than either Hudson or Soriano gave up…I love Wick, but unfortunately w/ the runners on 2nd and 3rd and less than 2 outs, you really need a guy like Soriano who can go get the strikeout when it is needed.
By fastasballs
June 14, 2007 11:03 PM | Link to this
That was a deflating loss to say the least. Not sure if it would have mattered but why didn’t they walk the bases loaded with guys on 2nd & 3rd with one out in a tie game? That keeps the double play in order & force outs at every base. Maybe Wickman gets the ground ball right at someone & gets out of the inning. Odds are against that it happens but they are even greater for Wickman stiking guys out when he HAS to. He hung that ball trying to be too perfect. Explain to me why a walk is not the best option in that situation?
Did Cox forget he was managing? Or am I missing something?
By Memphis
June 14, 2007 11:04 PM | Link to this
I really hope this does not have lingering effects, and I know it is just 1 game, but games like this can define a season (good or bad). I hope this is a speed bump.
I love Bobby Cox, but why the hell was Salty not replaced in the bottom of the 9th with Thorman? And not only why did Escobar not do a better job of guarding the lines, but why was Diaz so far from the line in left on the triple? Making that a triple instead of a double was the difference in the game in my opinion.
Absolutely ridiculus loss. I know that you lose games like this during the course of a long season, but you can not afford to lose games like this when you are playing the way the Braves are right now. Awful feeling right now about this game and the rest of the season.
Braves are 11-20 in last 31 games. Not good. 3-9 in last 12.
By N8
June 14, 2007 11:05 PM | Link to this
StingerSplash
“I really thought they should have let Soriano pitch the ninth and this isn’t after the fact thinking. That was my thought as the 8th ended, since Soriano had thrown just 10 pitches.”
That’s not Bobby’s style. 1 inning is 1 inning. I agree with you. What’s another inning? Not like if Soriano would’ve got up to 20 pitches in the 8th, he would’ve taken him out mid-inning.
If Bobby leaves Soriano out there in for the 9th, that might start a “controversy” over the closers role. Apparently Bobby’s gonna take the high road, and just let Wickman stink his way out of the role.
YIKES.
You always hear the saying “Good teams find a way to win”.
Well, don’t look now, but just like last June, it appears the opposite is true, as well. Meaning, BAD teams simply find new and creative ways to lose night after night.
(sigh)
Hey DOB, remember when you announced that the Braves had signed Mark Redman and I made the joke about Mike Redmon now being a Brave being a good thing since he always hit the Braves and Glavine all over the field?
I just knew that SOB was gonna do something to help them win a game in this series. We really do NEED to get that guy in a Braves unifor, so he can’t hurt us anymore.
btw: If Hudson isn’t hurt, this game is on him a little bit too. He’s gotta go longer than he did. Indoors, PERFECT weather conditions, 2 hits allowed, 84 pitches? Are you kidding me. I expect Chuck James to come out of the game there, but NOT our #2 starter, who had been absolutely DOMINANT.
(sigh)
By Ron
June 14, 2007 11:05 PM | Link to this
I wonder if BC will put Salty back out there at first again, but he should have been replaced even by the scrub Thorman in the 9th!!!
By Felix Millan
June 14, 2007 11:07 PM | Link to this
Even if Salty cathes that ball, he has no play because Wickman got o late jump from the mound. McCann should have caught that throw. The throw was not perfect but he should have caught it.
By JasonInMaine
June 14, 2007 11:08 PM | Link to this
I normally don’t say anything bad about Bobby…and I think he is a great manager…but, I have to agree with some of my fellow bloggers…what the he!! was he doing tonight?
Seriously, I think this loss says a lot. I really do. Absolutely awful loss. Whatever “swagger” or “mojo” the Bravos used to have has vanished into thin air…they just don’t have it right now.
And there is NO question that Soriano should close. Good night all. I certainly hope this weekend is a heck of a lot better than the last 59 or so games have been. Folks, this is a .500 team.
Regards,
Jason
By doc
June 14, 2007 11:09 PM | Link to this
chuckle, jjs you got me. under the weather and it hit me how sloppy it was when i went back to read it, kinda like the braves tonight in the end. oh the humanity.
i guess he got the nervous twitch out but not far enough.
By jed
June 14, 2007 11:10 PM | Link to this
yeah…the one time all season i wanted to see woodward was 9th inning tonight at first base. and ‘unbelievable’ is right…escobar’s throw was high, but come on brian, catch the freakin’ ball. i still think this team can win enough games to make the playoffs, but our weak infield defense (1b & 2b) will be exploited if we do make it that far. kelly’s done good but he’s still got a long way to go.
By supa
June 14, 2007 11:10 PM | Link to this
This is too painful to watch. I’d rather get blown out.
I think we just have to accept that last season was not a fluke.
By JasonInMaine
June 14, 2007 11:11 PM | Link to this
And like I said…3rd place after tonight to maybe never get any higher. Call me what you want. I should root and support the Braves no matter what…guess what…I do, but I also call it as I see it. I don’t bury my head in the sand and pretend there is nothing to worry about like some others. Folks, there is plenty to worry about.
By BILLY BROWN!!!
June 14, 2007 11:11 PM | Link to this
I apologize for posting basically the same comment twice. As I sent the first one, I decided to go back and rewrite it, you know make it easier for us all, but unfortunately it was too late. As you can see, the second comment is clearly superior. NO!!! YOU KNOW WHAT, I HATE YOU!!! I HATE THIS TEAM!!! I HATE BOBBY COX!!! I HATE BOB WICKMAN!!! I EVEN HATE YOU JIMMY SMITH!!!
By Sims, Warner Robins
June 14, 2007 11:11 PM | Link to this
Folks, we’re in trouble. It’s bad enough when we rely on Hudson and Smoltz to get us the games we need and when that doesn’t happen it really hurts. We’ve got to get some starting pitching! Hudson pitched great tonight, but now we know it’s an uphill battle (except Sat. w/ Smoltz). We needed this….badly.
By HP
June 14, 2007 11:12 PM | Link to this
Everyone clam down! It’s only one game. Braves will rebound and maybe they will learn smoothing from this mess and start a winning streak. As you know Bobby Cox is showing up his age now. He is not thinking hard that each game counts. Why in the world did he have salty in 9th inning? Did Thurman leave the ballpark for some reason. By the way season is still not over. There are 95 games left for those fans who are wondering if our season is over.
By IlliniBrave
June 14, 2007 11:13 PM | Link to this
According to Jayson Stark, we just saw the most overrated reliever blow a save and take the loss while recording only one out, and the most overrated centerfielder went 0-4, struck out twice, and left four men on base.
Oh, and the infield today, minus Renteria, averages only 100 games in the majors, including two guys playing in less than 30 games total - both of whom made poor defensive plays that helped BigWick blow the game.
The fact is - we are a very very very young team (5th youngest in the majors!), and we have several players that are in fact overrated, or at least not playing up to their potential. Stark is right, but many just don’t want to recognize the reality. This is the weakest (and youngest) Braves team since 1990.
By OVERLORD
June 14, 2007 11:14 PM | Link to this
grinch your comment was very accurate…..its takes too much ztupyydeetee to blow a game like this……. bobby cox though the games was already over……wake up, we were playing the twins which as far as i know is another MLB team. Im gonna take a vacation, i cant watch another game for a week or my wife is gonna become a widow.
By Train Wreck Bystander
June 14, 2007 11:14 PM | Link to this
That 9th inning was a crying shame.
Let’s hope the youngsters learn from this and it pays off in the future.
By A-ville Ranger
June 14, 2007 11:16 PM | Link to this
I thought I was finished for tonight but after reading some of the post I’m compelled to respond.Nobody quit tonight.What happened is Chipper isn’t at full range,I think when healthy he makes one of those plays.Salty panicked,he probably has a chance to make the play even after the bobble if he keeps his composure.The last mistake was McCann not handling the throw to the plate,that should have been an out.It looks like this team may be too green and thin to get to the post season this year.Now they need to prove me wrong.Billy I don’t think Thorman was clearly the better defender.I’d bet if the error didn’t happen nobody would have thought a thing about Salty being in.I know I wouldn’t have.
By N8
June 14, 2007 11:17 PM | Link to this
fastasballs
“Not sure if it would have mattered but why didn’t they walk the bases loaded with guys on 2nd & 3rd with one out in a tie game?”
Yeah, while we’re at it go search the stadium for Dan Gladden, put him on 3B, and see if the Twins could’ve had Gene Larkin PH in that spot.
Dude are you trying relive every moment of the 91 WS??
Just kidding man. I was thinking the same thing. Bobby apparently wasn’t, but then again, when has he been known for thinking at all. I’m sure the “book” said to NOT walk that guy. LOL!
Anybody remember a baseball movie from the early 90’s called “The Comrades of Summer” ???
One word for anybody who’s seen it, in reference to Bobby……”Manuel”.
By Matthew Cafaro
June 14, 2007 11:18 PM | Link to this
I can’t blame Wickman for that loss. He threw the pitches which would have won the game. It was the defense which let them down.
Why Cox did not make the defensive substitution with Thorman? He used to make defensive substitutions all the time. He just did nothing. His job is to “manage” the team into victory and instead he failed to do his job.
Cox did worse than just mis-manage them, he did absolutely nothing. Wickman is a ground ball pitcher and not a strike out artist so you would think Cox would have his best defensive infield out there in the 9th.
By Scott
June 14, 2007 11:19 PM | Link to this
This is definitely a game that is significantly harder to swallow than the rest of the recent losses. Like Memphis was alluding to, when you are playing bad baseball you can’t afford to give away a game that you have in your back pocket. The Twins basically did NOTHING but make contact in the 9th and somehow scored 3 runs. The old Braves teams would be cruising by now, but I guess that’s what you get with our injury problems. I’m gonna lose some sleep over this one.
By Scott
June 14, 2007 11:20 PM | Link to this
This is definitely a game that is significantly harder to swallow than the rest of the recent losses. Like Memphis was alluding to, when you are playing bad baseball you can’t afford to give away a game that you have in your back pocket. The Twins basically did NOTHING but make contact in the 9th and somehow scored 3 runs. The old Braves teams would be cruising by now, but I guess that’s what you get with our injury problems. I’m gonna lose some sleep over this one.
By Scott
June 14, 2007 11:20 PM | Link to this
This is definitely a game that is significantly harder to swallow than the rest of the recent losses. Like Memphis was alluding to, when you are playing bad baseball you can’t afford to give away a game that you have in your back pocket. The Twins basically did NOTHING but make contact in the 9th and somehow scored 3 runs. The old Braves teams would be cruising by now, but I guess that’s what you get with our injury problems. I’m gonna lose some sleep over this one.
By Scott
June 14, 2007 11:22 PM | Link to this
This is definitely a game that is significantly harder to swallow than the rest of the recent losses. Like Memphis was alluding to, when you are playing bad baseball you can’t afford to give away a game that you have in your back pocket. The Twins basically did NOTHING but make contact in the 9th and somehow scored 3 runs. The old Braves teams would be cruising by now, but I guess that’s what you get with our injury problems. I’m gonna lose some sleep over this one.
By Chop Chop
June 14, 2007 11:22 PM | Link to this
Well, TBS put on the full-court jinx tonight. They put up the “Twins are 0-27 when trailing after 8” stat and Smoltz’s 154 SV/168 OPP (Yeah! You know me!) compared to Wickman’s 154 SV/171 OPP since 2001. After all, who would YOU rather see on the mound in the ninth? The stats prove that they’re nearly equal! Numbers do not lie!
God, you even had Mike Redmond channeling Gene Larkin with a single over a kiddie-depth outfield.
I was 11 when that happened.
I’m still mad.
By Berigan
June 14, 2007 11:23 PM | Link to this
Wickman wouldn’t have given up 4 hits, if we were guarding the line in the 9th! I know I am beating this point to death, but I saw this crap happen too many times in the playoffs to the Braves, and with a team on astroturf??? Come on! What is worse, and single to Escobar’s left, or a triple? If he was on the line, those are outs. And we win the game. Perhaps if McCann had jumped one inch, we could have won the game as well….sigh….
By Eric C.
June 14, 2007 11:26 PM | Link to this
The season has been over for a while…not talking about wins/losses… this team doesn’t have the pitching nor the hitting to get to, much less win in the playoffs. It is time for focusing on the future and rebuilding. There will be more losing seasons before it gets better.
By Memphis
June 14, 2007 11:26 PM | Link to this
You know if the reason that Salty was out there for the 9th was because of the fear of losing the only other catcher then the Braves have got to make a roster move and get Brayan Pena back up here.
I am not a huge Brayan Pena fan, but if you are forced to make decisions based on the lack of another catcher, then why is he not here instead of Orr. You could option Orr to Richmond and use Salty like a player of his caliber should be and not be scared to lose your backup catcher.
DOB, why has this move not been made? I know they like Orr, but man this is hurting the team right now. Either keeping Salty from pinch hitting or if he is going to play much 1B, then you will at times need a defensive sub. I just don’t understand it. Our bench with Orr AND Woodward is a waste of a player. Both are exactly the same and offer very little other than versitility (and Willie Harris can give you that in terms of playing IF positions)
By DAP
June 14, 2007 11:27 PM | Link to this
guys, this one hurt.
By N8
June 14, 2007 11:28 PM | Link to this
Not sure if anybody cares, but on the Twins postgame show on their broadcast, they just interviewed Torii Hunter who said that Hudson was nasty and he pretty much just laughed when the reporter asked if “Hudson was pretty tough tonight”. Said he was carving them up and doing surgery on them. Then finished the interview by saying they were VERY HAPPY TO SEE HUDSON LEAVE THE GAME.
Gotta love our pitching changes, dont ya? Damned if we do, damned if we don’t.
3 games over .500 now for the year. 3 games UNDER .500 since the 7-1 start.
Here’s Wickman’s numbers since coming off the DL:
8.1 IP, 11 Hits, 1 BB, and count em’….3 K’s.
YIKES.
Now during the same stretch, here’s Soriano’s lines:
9 IP, 3 hits, 1 BB and 9 K’s.
Case Closed. Wickman should be setting Soriano up. PERIOD.
By Ron
June 14, 2007 11:28 PM | Link to this
It was not all Wickman’s fault, Andruw needs to bat 7th!!! The defense sucks, the offense sucks, but hell we finally had some Excellent Starting Pitching and still found a way to lose!!! This team better get it in gear now, because this is bullsh!t!!! I was in disbelief when the Twins won, mainly because we had this game won, and they were 0-27 when trailing in the 9th!!!
By jed
June 14, 2007 11:29 PM | Link to this
about the soriano/wickman/closer question: it’s a bit more precarious of a situation than yall are giving it credit. first off, i grant you your reasoning makes sense. soriano would make a great closer. maybe that ends the argument right there. but you’ve gotta remember that wickman has long been a closer and he’s done well as our closer. how would he fair being the set-up man? because, if he loses effectiveness, you’ve gained a closer (soriano) but lost an effective bullpen arm (wicky) during the move. that’s a pyrric victory. to give bobby credit, i’m sure that is what he’s thinking in not naming soriano the closer. and frankly it does make some sense. now, not using a defensive replacement for salty? go figure…
By Kudzu Wildcat
June 14, 2007 11:29 PM | Link to this
Well poop! This game has brought out the Fat Lady and she is singing, “Turn out the lights, the party’s over”
Looks like a 72-90 season and possibly last place in the EAST. Good Bye Braves.
By MS
June 14, 2007 11:31 PM | Link to this
I was frustrated watching Salty botch that play when Thorman could have been in there in the 9th too. But in Bobby’s defense, if the game goes to extra innings, he’s stuck with an already gimpy McCann having to go the distance.
Now if Pena were up instead of Orr…
By BirdDawg
June 14, 2007 11:33 PM | Link to this
Yeah that one definately hurt. If we had the right defensive players out there thing might have been different.
I would prefer Soriano as closer also. He is a strike out pitcher and those types make the best closers. Those strike outs also come in handy when you have runners in scorring position.
Just like with what happened tonight, ground ball pitchers are vunerable to bad defense and the bounce of the ball. Especially with less than two outs and a runner on third.
By jed
June 14, 2007 11:34 PM | Link to this
funniest thing i’ve read so far is HP’s 11:12 pm post, which he put in bold type, imploring the blog to “clam down”. yes, by god! all you people need to clam down immediately!
By BravesDave
June 14, 2007 11:35 PM | Link to this
Good points by fastasballs and Felix Milian. As soon as Redmon cam to the plate, I was expecting the intentional walk. Hunter and Redmond are meaningless at that point, the only run that matters is the runner on third. How do you not walk Redmon with two guys batting under .240 next up in the lineup, Kuble and Punto. Put the double play in order.
In addition, Wickman was in no position at all to cover first on the ball hit to Salty. If Salty fields it cleanly in the hole between first and second, the runner is still safe because Wickman was watching from the mound. That is on Wickman, just like the hanger to Redmond. Not to mention, it was a extremely tough fielding chance with the infield drawn in. I don’t know that Thorman makes that play. I have seen too many balls scoot under his glove this season to think he is anything other than adequate.
And another thing, the throw by Escobar was not terrible. McCann was trying to put the tag down before he had the ball in his mitt. It would have been a close play, but it was not on Escobar.
By N8
June 14, 2007 11:35 PM | Link to this
“Wickman wouldn’t have given up 4 hits, if we were guarding the line in the 9th!”
While I won’t argue (too much) with you, because you are right. But based on how far the OF was shifted around the other way on the Cuddyer triple. I can only come to two conclusions.
1) Wickman missed his spot. It didn’t appear as though McCann had to reach “across his body” on the replay, but still.
or
2) With the OF shifted around the other way, pitching on the inner half was a bad decision in the first place. Which we know would NEVER happen, right? I mean McCann calls such a great game, he would NEVER think of calling a pitch that would cross the defense up if it happened to actually get hit, would he?
Before you all rip me, I realize that Wickman might’ve shaken him off. But just tryin’ to have fun on a pretty sh!tty night.
By HP
June 14, 2007 11:38 PM | Link to this
jed, dude that was a typo. I meant “calm down”
By RDL
June 14, 2007 11:38 PM | Link to this
The mere sight of overweight, overpaid, and overrated Bob Wickman strolling to the mound with his usual lackidaisical demeanor is nothing short of laughable and disheartening…To make matters worse, he is collecting millions…How on earth can he look himself in the mirror, or sleep at night??? He is a sad joke to his coaches, teammates,city of Atlanta, and all who cheer on the Braves…
By Johnny Rocker
June 14, 2007 11:41 PM | Link to this
Why is everyone blaming Bobby Cox? Can Managers not also have bad games every now and then? Doesn’t anyone remember Phil Niekro’s last start with the Braves at age 47? Well Bobby is 67 and maybe his thinking isn’t the same as it was five years ago. BOBBY COX IS THE GREATEST OF ALL-TIME!!
By RON
June 14, 2007 11:42 PM | Link to this
This season is quickly resembling last season.Bobby Cox’s greatest asset is also his biggest weakness.He believes in his players so much it blinds him to the reality.Anyone else would have either benched Andrew or at least reconciled him to the lower third of the order.What does Cox do? After a couple of good games he moves him back to the cleanup spot where he can strand even more runners.It seems one good game,or even at bat,gains you a month with him.And dont think I’m gonna let J.S. go either.He should have made a decision last year on Andrew,either sign with us or we will trade you before you became 10/5.Instead,like Cox,he deceives himself into thinking that we are just a little shy,and a tweaking is all thats needed.Not true.Our pitching ace is 40+,our best RBI guy cant play in more than 110 games (at best) and we need 3 starting pitchers.O.k. maybe only 2.Chucky is a # 5 on a good team.Where do we go? Probably on deceiving ourselves.Look for J.S. to trade escobar and/or Salty for some 35 year old washed up pitcher on his last leg and proclaim us as a legitimate contender.Puleeze!Does any one else think if Langerhans wasnt traded he still wouldnt be platooning in LF? Matt Diaz is the least productive .300 hitter I have ever seen.Two out dunkers do a lot for your average,but he doesnt score a lot of runs and he sure cant drive any in.But then again that describes most of our lineup doesnt it? I’m done for now.Unfortunately so are the Braves.
By keylargo25
June 14, 2007 11:42 PM | Link to this
I’ve said it before and here it is again. You can not train a major league ball player to play a position he has never played at a major league level, during the season. That is what instructional leagues are for. That is what minor league assingments are for. That is the reason players are sent down to not embarass themselves with minor league performances in major league games. Salty makes an error at first. Escobar, a shortstop, lets a ball get down the line in the ninth - a cardinal sin. Escobar makes a high throw - handcuffing McCannan and letting a run in. You know what? This is what happens when you have players playing out of position. You can not hide them because the ball will find them.
By jed
June 14, 2007 11:43 PM | Link to this
and yep, if you’re gonna play salty, you’ve got to bring pena up. no doubt.
By jed
June 14, 2007 11:43 PM | Link to this
and yep, if you’re gonna play salty, you’ve got to bring pena up. no doubt.
By Bobby Cocks
June 14, 2007 11:43 PM | Link to this
Cox proved he is freakin’ senile in the 9th tonite. Loyalty overriding common sense for the millionith time. Yeah all the players love him and wanna play for him. Remember the teacher everybody loved at school, wasn’t a very good teacher in most cases. Andrew should sit until he learns to think at the plate, which may never happen
By Brave
June 14, 2007 11:44 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB, is it me or does Wickman have something against Hudson. Most of his blown saves are when Hudson was in peak form and the game was won for the braves. This was the best Hudson has pitched this year…TWO hits. I know its not true that Wicky has anything against huddy but I just was heart broken when wicky blew this save. Its not all wickmans fault of course..the team found a way again to lose. If you can’t win when smoltz or hudson pitches well then how are you going to win with the back rotation. M/b he needs to hit batters for a win.
By geauxbraves2000
June 14, 2007 11:45 PM | Link to this
Yes, it is just one game. But how many times now have we said “it’s just one game?” 20? 30?
I just don’t think this is a very good team. There’s just not enough consistent starting pitching, the offense appears to be in a hurry to get the game over with night after night. Unless some changes are made, or at least a water cooler incident, it’s going to be a long summer.
Oh well, they are still my team, win or lose.
Geaux Braves!!
By Sonny
June 14, 2007 11:47 PM | Link to this
Just when you thought it couldn’t get any worse…
By Chop Chop
June 14, 2007 11:50 PM | Link to this
Here’s another ironic tidbit from tonight’s game:
Smoltz pitched 7.1 innings of shutout ball in Game 7 of the ‘91 World Series.
Huddy pitched 7.1 innings of shutout ball tonight.
By jed
June 14, 2007 11:51 PM | Link to this
i know HP—just having fun. one could point out that i misspelled “fare” as “fair” in one of my posts tonight.
By BravesDave
June 14, 2007 11:53 PM | Link to this
Another point to the “don’t worry, everything will be fine” crowd. Playoff teams do not go 11-20 over 31 game stretches. That is 1/5 of the season.
By fastasballs
June 14, 2007 11:59 PM | Link to this
If Diaz didn’t line into the pitcher’s glove the Braves probably win. Chipper scores & a big inning may have started. When you’re losing those kind of things happen, unfortunately they are happening on a regular basis. The two out RBI’s & comeback wins have gone the way of the dodo.
I know we are ONLY 2 1/2 games out, seems like 20 1/2, should be 10 if the Muts had not tanked at the same time. This team is about as far away from the post season as you can get, not in the standings, but team chemistry & knowing how to win. They have left way too many winnable games on the table this year, enough to be in first by 3-4 games at least. Those tend to bite you in the butt later in the year.
Teams of old would bounce back from loses like this, we’ll see tomorrow I guess. Sucks to blow such a well pitched game & a win verse one of the game’s best pitchers.
By Salvador Dali
June 15, 2007 12:00 AM | Link to this
You like to conceptualize lineups. Creating a lineup is an art form.
Here is the lineup that I suggest to Mr. Bobby Cox:
A basket of bread
Locusts
A snail on a bicycle
Melting clocks
An elephant with wobbly legs carrying an obelisk
A fountain of milk flowing uselessly over 3 shoes
A burning giraffe
Boiled beans
A dead bat covered with ants
and,
Closer: a swallows tail
By BILLY BROWN!!!
June 15, 2007 12:03 AM | Link to this
Well, if you take away that 24-12 start, the Braves are 11-20, We’re done, folks. Look at it this way: While going 11-20, the Braves won 4 out of 5 at one point, so take that away and the Braves are 7-19. And take away the fluke wins against the Mets (the Davies homer and Smoltz’s 200th) and they are 5-19. Take away the fluke wins against the Cubs and they are 3-19. Take away the fluke homers by Salty and Woodward against Florida and we’re 2-19. THE BRAVES ARE A 2-19 TEAM!!! THAT’S PATHETIC!!!
By The Truth Hurts
June 15, 2007 12:06 AM | Link to this
Whoa….slow the anti-Wickman train down a bit. The guy has been as dominant a closer as nearly anyone in the game over the last couple of years. And as efficient as Smoltz was in the role. He isn’t always pretty, but he nearly always gets the job done.
Listen, two balls that were inches fair down the 3rd base line…a grounder to 1st and a roller down the 3rd base line…a bit of bad luck coupled with bad defense. No, he’s not a strikeout pitcher, but he is so rarely in a position of needing a strikeout that it doesn’t matter very much. That’s a testament to his consistency. I’d only fault him and McCann for calling for a slider on the last pitch…it’s not his best pitch and the odds of it being a hanger are higher than the odds of the guy hitting a fastball through the infield.
All in all, this wasn’t Wickman’s fault and you simply don’t displace him in favor of Soriano. He’s done nothing to warrant such talk.
Geez, talk about living in the moment with short memories.
By ArkyTech
June 15, 2007 12:06 AM | Link to this
Why aren’t we DH’ing for Andruw?
By monty
June 15, 2007 12:09 AM | Link to this
WHat you saw tonite were rookie mistakes. Eunell not protecting the line. Where was Pat Corrales when you need him, the high throw to the plate, Mcann trying to tag the runner before making sure he caught the ball. Salty should not have been out there in the ninth. It wasn’t Wickman’s fault. in- experience at the corners. They showed stats during the game tonite that showed Wickman was slightly better than Smoltz was as a closer. Basically the same amount of saves per chances.
By Meanie
June 15, 2007 12:09 AM | Link to this
Man, oh man… the morons and fairies are out tonight!! You got jed who’s apparently as sharp as moose nuts double posting, The Assranger is posting his usual drivel, JasoninMaine is wearing her sundress and pettisol wandering about the town square looking for permission to worry, N8 is biching as USUAL saying FRICKING with regularity, Geaux Braves doesn’t understand that most morons will say it’s only one game 62 times if they win 100, two idiots arguing about a flesh wound, and some real idiot named Kudzu predicting 90 losses. There are more examples but, damn, I don’t want to think about it…
By Ron
June 15, 2007 12:10 AM | Link to this
Spurs Win Spurs Win Spurs Win!!!!! YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!! My NBA Team WON!!!!!!!!! That made me feel much better, especially seeing a heartbreak loss by the Braves. I am a big Spurs fan, and I will be honest, before the All Star break I did not see them winning the Championship, because I thought that the Mavs, and Suns were better, but the Spurs got into a grove after the All Star break!!! And I am a big Colts fan, and at the beginning they looked awesome and then toward the end of the season, they sucked, but they got it together in the playoffs!!! What I am trying to say is we look really really awful right now, but things change!!! Especially when I watched the Colts and the Spurs some this year, I thought they had no chance at even making it to the championship game, but they clicked at the right time, and thats what we have to do!!! Lets not give up hope just yet!!!!!
By JordanPTC
June 15, 2007 12:10 AM | Link to this
DOB, very enlightening blog you put together. Seriously. Just reading the blog (after watching the devastating loss), and Stark’s retort to Bora’s rebuttal was a fantastic piece of work and makes he happy I continue to visit this site. Excellent journalism.
By Matthew At The SLC
June 15, 2007 12:13 AM | Link to this
Did any of you notice how the Braves announcers were towing the company line as far as spending? They went on and on how the Twins remain competitive in a small market with a limited budget. It is almost like they were falling all over each other trying to “defend” thrifty ownership. What they didn’t point out that after winning it all in 1991, the Twins flame out in the playoffs just like the Braves. Sure you might be able to win a division on the cheap but not World Series titles.
By Tinkerbell
June 15, 2007 12:15 AM | Link to this
You must believe the Braves WILL Win, or else i’ll die!
By JasonInMaine
June 15, 2007 12:18 AM | Link to this
And Meanie (real intelligent moniker) is again attacking other bloggers while hiding in cyberspace and contributing nothing as usual. I don’t normally get into these types of conversations, but go crawl under your rock. Ah the safety of flapping your gums behind a keyboard…
By Michael Procton
June 15, 2007 12:21 AM | Link to this
And, Matthew, that’s not even mentioning the fact that the Braves’ payroll in that stretch since the ‘91 Series was ALWAYS higher than Minnesota’s. I don’t know if it was as much about toeing the line as it was the fact that what the Twins have done IS impressive, WS titles or not. They have been way more limited than the Braves when it comes to FA signings, and as such have had draft, develop, and trade for their quality talent. Just look at that Pierzynski trade!
By Calvin21
June 15, 2007 12:22 AM | Link to this
I agree Soriano has got to be the closer. Wick has been good for us since coming over from the Indians, but Soriano is obviously the more dominant reliever.
I was glad to see Salty in there at first in the 9th—shows Cox is completely comfortable with the kid. In no way was that his fault in the 9th, tough ball coming off the turf. I still think he has to be the everyday 1st baseman and he has nothing to prove otherwise.
DO NOT HANG THIS ONE ON ESCOBAR! Cox should have had him guarding the line. Remember, he is not a natural 3B, so the coaching staff should have had him in the right position. His throw was tough to handle, but probably should have been caught. The runner also affected his throw. He made a good play and has been amazing since coming up.
This was a huge loss, but in some ways tonight could be turn in to a positive. Salty is proving he can man first base. And it might initiate Cox to think about adjusting the roles in the pen. We are still only 2 1/2 out of first with just under 100 games left to play. We just have to get more consistency from our starters and we have to give Andruw going!
By Double Deuce
June 15, 2007 12:24 AM | Link to this
You can try to put the blame elsewhere on this one, but this falls right on Wickman’s shoulders and I’ll bet he would tell you the same. Salty’s ball was a tough play and one he’ll probably make after a few games at first, but the triple is still a triple and even if Escobar’s throw is better, Cuddyer is safe. If Paronto or Yates was pitching the 9th and this happened bloggers would be screaming for a trade. Wickman’s not immune to failure either, it doesn’t make him a bad closer. But for people to suggest this is Bobby’s fault is unfair. It is what it is, a blown save.
By BILLY BROWN!!!
June 15, 2007 12:24 AM | Link to this
You people need to get a freakin life! You sit around typing on the computer all day and night about your precious Braves. They’re never going to win. It should be obvious by now. Quit wasting your life!!! You people are more depressing than those Napoleon Dynamite fans. Have you ever met a Napoleon Dynamite fan? If not, you’re lucky, cause those people are in for long, miserable lives just like you die-hard Braves fans. The Braves suck! They are now 2-19 in actual games. Count em’ 2 AND 19! AND OWNERSHIP SUCKS, COX IS RETARDED, ANDRUW GOT FAT, AND FREAKIN JIMMY SMITH HAS MOST LIKELY PUT A CURSE ON THE WHOLE FREAKIN TEAM WITH HIS UGANDAN VOODOO CRAP!
By Sergeant Salmonloaf
June 15, 2007 12:26 AM | Link to this
StingerSplash says: I really thought they should have let Soriano pitch the ninth and this isn’t after the fact thinking. That was my thought as the 8th ended, since Soriano had thrown just 10 pitches.
You were not alone, StingerSplash! I said exactly the same thing at exactly the same time! I winced and groaned when I saw Fatman on the mound in the ninth. I knew what was gonna happen. With the numbers those Twins hitters had against Wicky, I was shocked Bobby didn’t go by the books and avoid Wickman for the 9th. SHOULDA LEFT SORIANO IN THERE, G@$^*&#>IT!
This devastating loss is all on Cox…
By BravesDave
June 15, 2007 12:28 AM | Link to this
On the Wickman/Soriano question…there is just a different feeling when Soriano enters a game. When he steps on the mound, you feel like the inning is already over, there is no way the opposing batters are going to string together enough hits to score a run. He is DOMINANT.
On the other hand, when Wickman ambles to the mound (in the same general physical condition as Bobby Cox), you feel like the game is still up in the air. Unless your name is Trevor Hoffman, closers do not get by on 90 mile an hour fastballs and breaking slop. We have seen Wickman look shaky on many an occassion this season. We have seen him lose the strike zone when his back flared up. We have seen him be unable to get the strikeout when it was necessary.
The difference between a 90 MPH fastball (Wickman) and a 98 MPH fastball (Soriano) is huge…especially in the 9th inning, when in most games the opposing hitters have been looking at 90-92 MPH fastballs out of our starters (outside of Smoltz).
By Scooter Libby
June 15, 2007 12:30 AM | Link to this
OK, so I sit around typing on the computer all day and night about the Braves. So what. I lost my job and I don’t have anything else to do.
By McCannsCan
June 15, 2007 12:34 AM | Link to this
Bobby Cox is becoming duller by the day. I’m tired of Hudson’s beautiful works of art being ruined by his strategic BLUNDERS. Wickman doesn’t have to go out every ninth inning, i just don’t get it. And now we’re a half game behind the Phils. My heart is bleeding.
By vwburt
June 15, 2007 12:34 AM | Link to this
cox is trapped. if he use soriano in the eighth and if wickman if off, the game is over. soriano should be the closer if he has to pitch the eighth and ninth .
By teoa
June 15, 2007 12:39 AM | Link to this
I’m hanging this loss on BC and JS for their inexplicable decision to tie up two roster spots with identical no-hit utility infielders in Woodward and Orr. I think if Pena is on the team, then Bobby doesn’t hesitate to put Thorman in late tonight as a defensive replacement.
I’m actually really pleased to see Bobby give Salty a chance to learn on the job. Definitely not a typical conservative Cox move there, but the risk is well worth the potential reward in my opinion. Still, they’ve got to be able to use a little common sense, take it slow, be happy with 7-8 solid defensive innings at first out of Salty and get him out before crunch time. No way he should be out there in that situation tonight until he’s completely comfortable playing first. Too bad Bobby’s blind loyalty to those bench guys keeps the Braves from having the roster flexibility to develop Salty the right way. Woodward and Orr cost the Braves a win tonight without even getting in the game.
By Tarkio Rose
June 15, 2007 12:40 AM | Link to this
Talk about “the company line” Did you hear Hekkyl and Jekkyl’s description of Salty’s botched effort on the ground ball to first?
Cheerful Chip said he did a good job of knocking the ball down (now that’s hilarious) and Homer Simpson commended him for not throwing the ball to first.
They are maybe the worst cheerleading duo among all National League announcers. The White Sox crew wins the American League honors.
By bravesfan
June 15, 2007 12:41 AM | Link to this
We need to sell the team to Andruw cause this is what he said. “If I owned the team, I wouldn’t be playing,” Andruw Jones said. The Braves need to trade Andruw Jones, Bob Wickman, and Bobby Cox. Trade Andruw to the Padres for Jake Peavy. Trade Bob Wickman, Chad Paronto, and a minor leaguer to the Angels for Scot Shields. Trade Bobby Cox for what ever you can get. All I know is they better do something QUICK or the season will be over soon.
By Splinter
June 15, 2007 12:49 AM | Link to this
Don’t laugh, that snail on a bike is gonna be the next Ron Cey, or possibly Dor Dar Cedeno. Dead bat covered w/ ants succumbs to SI jinx though IMHO.
By HP
June 15, 2007 12:49 AM | Link to this
How many of you’ll think that Andruw Jones should be benched? All he does is hit useless homeruns. His batting average is also getting closer to Mendoza line. I say yes. Give him some rest and see what happens.
By Todd A
June 15, 2007 12:51 AM | Link to this
We went into a tailspin after Wickman blew Hudson’s 3-0 lead in Florida back in early May.But….never mind,we’re already in a tailspin.This season is becoming a debacle with guys finding new ways to lose each night.
By cardvol
June 15, 2007 12:51 AM | Link to this
Why would the Angels trade Shields for Wickman, Paronto and a Minor Leaguer and why would the Padres want Andruw for Peavy? Those teams’ GMs aren’t on drugs!
By N8
June 15, 2007 12:52 AM | Link to this
Looks like last June all over again.
Oh well, Groundhog Day is one of my favorite movies. :-)
Maybe if we’re “lucky” this will become a tradition.
Aha! After two days of thought, I couldn’t quite come up with a T-Shirt slogan, I’ve finally got it:
“Uh…..WHAT June Swoon?”
Since my firs submission of:
“Hi, my name’s N8. Let me tell you why this T-Shirt SUCKS”
Didnt’ get used. I was sooooo dissapointed.
By Mark Wohlers
June 15, 2007 12:55 AM | Link to this
I’m available.
By Bob Wickman
June 15, 2007 12:57 AM | Link to this
Guys,I blew it tonight.But,at least I’m not Chris Reitsma.
By StingerSplash
June 15, 2007 12:58 AM | Link to this
Third place. Behind the Phils. With that genius Charlie Manuel (Grady Little’s twin separated at birth) managing them. And Skip and Pete went over the upcoming pitchers - Sabathia, Byrd, Carmona (who is throwing 100 octane gas), Schill (who is usually full of hot air but never throws his own teammates under the Green Line), Beckett and probably Dice-K, then Verlander (as nasty as Rosie O’Donnell without a fresh bag of Cheetos handy), Maroth and Durbin.
By Chris Reitsma
June 15, 2007 1:00 AM | Link to this
At least I’m not Dan Kolb.
By N8
June 15, 2007 1:03 AM | Link to this
teoa
“Too bad Bobby’s blind loyalty to those bench guys keeps the Braves from having the roster flexibility to develop Salty the right way. Woodward and Orr cost the Braves a win tonight without even getting in the game.”
Nicely put. Totally agree about Pena, and the fact that Thorman should’ve been in. Having said that, I’ve been ALL OVER Thorman’s lack of range for a couple of weeks, so IMO, there is no guarantee he makes that play either.
LaRoche does. But no need to open THAT can of worms.
Of course if we’re getting into “hypotheticals”, Soriano more than likely comes up with AT LEAST 1, if not 2 K’s in the 9th. Making the ball getting PUT IN PLAY for an error to occur, even less likely, than having good defenders in the field.
10 pitches. 10 G.D. pitches is all Soriano through tonight.
You know what that makes his TOTAL pitchcount in June? …..52. Fifty-FRICKIN (just for meanie)-TWO!!!
Tomorrow is the 15th of June. That’s 3.46 pitches per DAY he’s thrown this month. Or in recent terms, only 25 more pitches than Wickman threw TONIGHT!
Bobby, Bobby, Bobby…..Always one to out think himself.
By Todd A
June 15, 2007 1:04 AM | Link to this
Yep.Eerily similar to June ‘06.
By Todd A
June 15, 2007 1:11 AM | Link to this
Don’t see that too often.Bobby and think in the same sentence.
By chipdip
June 15, 2007 1:14 AM | Link to this
WICKMAN NEEDS TO LAY OFF THE BURGERS AND DARK BEER!!!!
By Scott
June 15, 2007 1:15 AM | Link to this
Tough game to lose tonight. Really heart breaking. We beat Santana and then had the damn thing snatched from under our nose.
By David O'Brien
June 15, 2007 1:23 AM | Link to this
Jordan, thanks much. Glad you liked it. It was a pain, to tell you the truth. But I thought it was only fair to let Jayson reply, since I gave Scott so much space….
Just watched the Sopranos ending a second time, and it remained as empty as tonight’s Braves ending. (OK, that’s a reach for attempted relevance).
Still can’t believe they lost that one tonight. So much like the late-April game Hudson lost at Florida, though he left with bases loaded and a 3-0 lead in that one. Turned it over to Wickman.
Chipper’s guarding the line closer if he’s in, but hey, he wasn’t in. I thought someone should’ve had Escobar closer to line, especially after the first hit….
When I got back to the hotel, Sopranos was in last 10 minutes. Saw a lot of little stuff I didn’t notice before, like all the song titles had a little something to say. And I’m still totally undecided on what was about to happen. Dammit, I hate the fade to black, and I don’t care what any high falutin’ critic says. The ending blew. But it was great right up to then.
By WRFAN
June 15, 2007 1:32 AM | Link to this
Wickman and his beer belly….MaCann should have made the catch…..AJ no hit Jones…. Stark righton with AJ….Boras sucks……..Cox sleeping in the dugout…….DOB rocking out with the music stars………JS can’t find a starting pitcher……NASCARFAN has it right about AJ……….Soriano is great….willie Harris is great…Thank goodness tomorrow is another day…Go BRAVES!!!!!!Welcome back Chipper….
By The Grinch
June 15, 2007 1:33 AM | Link to this
Chipdip, burgers and dark beer are a wondrous thing to behold and consume. Trust me. I, too, share your affinity for Motorhead. Up the irons.
By Todd A
June 15, 2007 1:35 AM | Link to this
Agree.I could have settled for anything but the blackout.Just give me closure.Chase set everything up nicely for a movie.Lots of subplots:Tony goes to trial,Does Silvio regain consciousness,who becomes Tony’s 2nd and 3rd in command,what happens in New York.
By fastasballs
June 15, 2007 1:37 AM | Link to this
The Indians & Red Sox are next up, what will this blog look like by the end of the Red Sox series?
I hate to be negative, but things are not looking good. JS & Cox are doing this team any favors. Not bringing Pena up doesn’t make any sense, can’t they afford an airline ticket now? I’m only 2.5 hours from Richmond, I’ll go get him & drive him to Cleveland, lol.
Cox has made some poor moves or lack of moves lately. Andruw back at clean up is crazy. Am I nuts or did he use to hit breaking balls? THIS JUST IN ANDRUW, all pitchers know you are guessing fastball every pitch so they are not thowing it.
This team can still score some runs, but when you stick two free swingers back to back in the line up it kills rallies & gives pitchers easy innings. Earlier in the season the team as a whole was much more patient & really worked pitchers. Just like last June they are pressing & their aggressiveness is working against them. History is a great learning tool & as the old saying goes it does repeat itself.
By BravesDave
June 15, 2007 1:49 AM | Link to this
52 pitches in June for Soriano…post of the night, N8.
By Coach
June 15, 2007 1:50 AM | Link to this
Napoleon found his Waterloo and the Braves have to , in the Metrodome. Cox , I love you and respect you. But , you stink right now. Your cleanup hitter is batting .215 , Pete Orr instead of Brayan Pena , do you still believe that KJ is a better option leading off than Willie Harris , you waited this long to pull Thorman and play Salty , Buddy Carlyle is your fifth starter instead of Dan Smith 6-3 2.85 ERA / JoJo Reyes 7-1 3.80 or Matt Harrison 5-3 3.53 ERA , your team has 26 stolen bases while the Mets have 75 and the Phillies have 51. C’mon , get off your keister and start managing or retire already. This is rediculous , when the other team beats you it’s one thing , when my team beats themselves it is totally different. It’s called U-N-D-E-R-A-C-H-I-E-V-I-N-G and this Coach/fan will not tolerate it. It’s the one thing that will pi$$ me off to no end. Watching a young highly talented team play below their ability. The lack of a sense of urgency on the part of Cox and Schuerholz is palpable. M-O-T-I-V-A-T-I-O-N for this team requires a swift kick in the Gluteus maximus. Bobby Cox , you are a player’s manager and like the captain of the Titanic , everything you know about baseball is working against you my friend.
By David O'Brien
June 15, 2007 1:53 AM | Link to this
JMM, no, our Tommy Stinson (AJC’s) isn’t related to the Mats’ Stinsons.
Yes, they were hit-and-miss live, but great even when sloppy misses (at least memorable). I remember seeing them in Lawrence, Ks., in a little bar, and Stinson’s guitar hit me in the head when they came out to start. We were a little out of it ourselves, and they were late going on, and we didn’t even realize they were about to start and had taken the stage. He says something like, “Dude, off the stage, we’re starting.” I swear (I couldn’t make that up).
OK, got a 7:15 a.m. flight, connection in freakin’ Cincinnati (Minneapolis to Cleveland not a well-traveled and/or affordable direct route).
By Coach
June 15, 2007 1:55 AM | Link to this
The argument concerning Andruw between Boooraaaaaas and Stark cannot be won. Andruw has a hall of fame glove in centerfield and a triple AAA bat in the box. He is what he is , a total conundrum.
By BravesDave
June 15, 2007 1:56 AM | Link to this
Weak hitting coach that can’t teach hitters to adjust. A manager that makes some real head-scratching decisions. A star that can’t stay on the field and watches his team going into a tailspin while he sits on the bench with bruised hands. Another ‘star’ that is hitting around the Mendoza line, while making $15 million.
By teoa
June 15, 2007 1:57 AM | Link to this
After watching the end of The Sopranos a few more times, I’m convinced it was perfect. Life goes on for Tony, but not without the constant, all-consuming tension and paranoia that no one in the audience could possibly relate to…except that we almost did in the brilliance of those final moments in the diner, when the audience’s expectations were used to climb inside Tony’s head more authentically than ever before in the whole spectacular run of the show.
I posted some of the JFK type conspiracy theories that I read about the final scene on Monday, but after another look, there’s absolutely nothing that indicates Tony was killed. “Life goes on” is a perfectly valid ending in my opinion, and it doesn’t take a high falutin critic to appreciate it. In fact, it seems like that ending has grown on a lot of people that were slamming it at first. To be able to go with the life goes on ending, and go out with a bang at the same time…genius.
DOB, give it another week, you’ll come around. I promise you it was infinitely better than that Braves game tonight.
By BravesDave
June 15, 2007 1:58 AM | Link to this
The two young ‘faces of the franchise’ that are not living up to expectations in any way. Francoeur has lost his power due to new-found love of hitting singles to right field…and big deal, he has 17 walks instead of 5 at this point last season. I would rather 7 or 8 more HRs than 12 more walks. McCann is in a complete funk…offensively and defensively. I can only credit Edgar and Kelly as solid contributors all season. Salty and Escobar have not been here long enough to matter yet. Orr, Woodward…please. It was nice to see JS correct the Wilson and Redman mistakes…but why are these clowns still on the roster???
By BravesDave
June 15, 2007 2:00 AM | Link to this
The pitching staff is in shambles…the major off-season acquistion won’t pitch again until late 2008. We do not have a 3, 4, or 5 starter. Kyle Davies career ERA is over 6 and they continue to trot him to the mound every 5 days. Buddy Carlyle? Chuck James? One day he is going to throw 80 pitches in the first inning. I like Yates, but Cox never uses him in the right spots. McBride is hit or miss. Paronto is fat. Moylan might be the bullpen MVP. Villareal…who knows? Give him a shot to start and maybe he would find his groove.
Yet with all this…some people say ‘don’t worry, everything will be fine’. We have gone from 24-12 to third place in a month. Unbelievable. No reasonably priced starting pitching will be available come July. This season is done.
By The Grinch
June 15, 2007 2:05 AM | Link to this
Dave, why the hell would anyone pay extra to go from Minny to Cleveland? That’s like paying extra to go from Scylla to Charibdis. %&#@ that noise.* I envy some parts of your job, but not others.
By Stephen
June 15, 2007 2:06 AM | Link to this
Billy Brown you’re a complete moron. “Actual games?” I’m pretty sure every single game that the Braves have played this season have been an “Actual game.” Those “Fluke” homeruns and “Fluke” wins did actually happen so you can’t say that just because something happened to go in the braves favor the game doesn’t count.
By Ralph
June 15, 2007 2:11 AM | Link to this
I don’t care who in the line-up if you don’t get hits when it counts or teach the rookies or second year player such as Francoeur how to hit a baseball, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO WIN!!. Don’t blame Saltalamacchia or Escobar by saying its their fault the Braves lost the game. Blame Cox’s for bring in Wickman when he didn’t have to. Wickman gave up 4 hits and 3 runs in 1/3 of an inning. The Braves left 15 men on base and struck out a total of 11 times. A. Jones left 4 men on base and Francoeur left 3. This is the way the Braves have been playing the game with or without Chipper.. Pendleton needs to start earning his keep and the whole Braves team need to Start playing like major league players, instead of bunch of baboons in baseball uniforms. I would like to see Cox get kick out of the game, not by the umpire, but by the management. I truly belief that the real problem with the Braves, has become the manager. Bobby Cox was a very good manager at one time, but some how the Braves player don’t even have little league discipline, at the plate or in the field, it’s like they’re still in spring training. Just like last year there is no motivation shown by the players.
By sheesh
June 15, 2007 2:15 AM | Link to this
I hope all you baseball “geniuses” who want Salty to play first every day are pleased with your low baseball IQ scores and obvious absence of baseball savvy. He has played two games there now and continues to prove what a total butcher he is fielding the position. N8, this loss is not Cox’s fault, it is on Salty and McCann for their poor defense. It is always morons like you who try to blame the manager for not un-doing the very move that you have been whining to have executed for weeks. If the Braves somehow got out of the 9th tied, you would have been whining about Salty being pulled for defensive purposes in a game that was only 2 runs from going extra innings.
Salty is a catcher and only a catcher. Schuerholz was right about that. Maybe if you send Salty to first base school in the off-season (like Kelly Johnson did — but even at that, Johnson is still below average), then maybe you can play Salty 7 or 8 innings at first every night. But he will not be even a below average first baseman for quite some time — certainly not this year. If he continues to play first this year, he will most assuredly cost the team more games than he will win for them.
And BTW, Escobar did not make a bad play in the 9th. McCann has to glove that ball.
By snowball's chance
June 15, 2007 2:31 AM | Link to this
Boras was on Rome’s Burning today and he never mentioned Andruw. He has bigger fish to fry since he is Arod’s agent. The Blog has obviously caught the sportsworld’s attention. I love Point-Counterpoint being brought up by Lew. It wouldn’t be a fair fight between Boras and Stark. Boras might be the Anti-Christ but he is smart while Stark is a putz. I will read most anything but his book sounds like a cry for help.
By fastasballs
June 15, 2007 2:31 AM | Link to this
Over the next month the Braves play will dictate if they are buyers or sellers. If they are buyers it had better be a strong move, not some weak a* attempt at making the pitching staff better by giving up more than a 2-3 month rental is worth.
I think JS has a few problems if he wants to be a seller. Chipper & Smoltz. I’m not sure what type of promise was made to them, if any, about fielding a competitive team aroud them.
The Braves do have some strong trade pieces that should bring a lot of talent in return. Edgar, Wickman, Hudson, & a slew of bullpen guys. Not Soriano. I think some very shrewd trades could be made & JS could fleece some teams for young talent.
I just don’t want to see a bunch of moves trading off our young talent in order to make some half a* attempt at making the wild card.
Look at what can be in 2008 & 2009 with what’s already here, on the farm (nice trio of AA pitchers), & whoever JS could bring in with trades.
Face it if the starters don’t come from within, which is not likely, none is to be had without giving up significant prospects. Although in the same line of thinking what do you think Hudson would be worth to the Yankees or another playoff contender? Wickman? Edgar?
I would rather see this organization assemble a great team for the future than trade off the future to chase a goal that is most likely not attainable this year.
By CharlotteBraveFan
June 15, 2007 2:32 AM | Link to this
Sent these LOSERS down to Richmond and bring up the entire AAA team. They can’t be any worse!!
By Jimbo
June 15, 2007 2:37 AM | Link to this
I wonder if Bobby knows Fathead Jones is back in the dumper again. I wonder how many games before he’s gone?
By MEB
June 15, 2007 2:39 AM | Link to this
DOB… next time you talk to the low life Jayson Stark send him my regards. I send him e-mails all the time telling him what I think of his low brow drivel. When he starts writing baseball books the quality of Halberstam and Montville then he deserves time on your blog. Well that is pretty tough standards but I think you know what I mean.
The Braves will need to show us what they are made of after a tough loss tonight. I’ve still got faith.
GO BRAVES!!!
By Bob, Journalist
June 15, 2007 2:44 AM | Link to this
Shaun, it’s rumored that Pythagorean was a good hitter with some power(2) and very fast, holding the record for triples but … to my knowledge, he never managed or played first base because, as his pictures indicate, he had hands of stone.
For all I know, he may still live somewhere near Athens and I’ve heard him mentioned occasionally over near Rose Bowl Field. … so perhaps he knew something about the A, B and Cs of the game but I can’t understand your mentioning him here since, like Lew, he’s certainly too old to play … heck, he’s older than Cato!
Now why would you mention him without first explaining to your audience what in the world it was that you were talking about and what he had to do with same?
By Matt
June 15, 2007 2:44 AM | Link to this
Willie Harris needs to be in the lineup EVERY night. Righty or Lefty… EVERY night.
There is no argument needed here.
By Matt
June 15, 2007 2:45 AM | Link to this
Willie Harris needs to be in the lineup EVERY night. Righty or Lefty… EVERY night.
There is no argument needed here.
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 2:50 AM | Link to this
BravesDave Agree with a lot you state tonight. Orr should be replaced by Brayan Pena. Who are you going to use as your utility infielder if you get rid of “clown” Woodward? He plays almost every position on the field if needed, not like an all star, but heck he is a frickin utility player. I would send him packing too if we had someone to replace him. Most of the guys who are in AAA are there for a reason.
Last point, it sounded as if you were critical of Chipper because he got hurt. Are you kidding me??? If that is not what you meant, then I apologize, but where would someone get off criticizing a player for being injured. Knowing Hoss for the past 12 years, he doesn’t sit, unless he can’t go. I have had my share of cortisone shots, and friend, they are NOT pleasant, and sometimes the recup from the shot is almost as bad as the injury.
Fastasballs I too am really puzzled as to why JS/BC have not brought up BPena???? Is something else in the works??? Also, AJ is SOOOO frickin frustrating. And, while I love Bobby, why on God’s green earth is he still hitting anything above 6th or 7th??? You gotta hit Frenchy, Diaz, McCann and Salty ahead of him right now. Personally, I would sit his keister on the pine for the next series, and see if he strikes out from there on another frickin curveball.
Tonights Game Lost primarily by a poor managers decision (1B defensive replacement), poor coaching (Escobar not covering the line) and some shoddy defense. Wickman was not that bad. He is a guy who moves the ball around, and changes speeds, a lot like Maddux, but with a gut and less talent. The man did not deserve the heat tonight though. Better positioning, better catching and throwing the ball, etc. lost this game.
BTW, somebody (sorry I had to look quick at the blog, as I have been working outside all day) said they wish Wickman would strike out more batters. He has 14 strikeouts in 21.2 innings, or about 2 for every 3 innings. Soriano has 26 in 28.2 innings, or almost one per inning. I like Soriano as the closer too, but it’s not like he strikes out 2+ per inning, it just seems that way sometimes. The contrast from Wickman to Soriano is a good thing to have, to keep the other teams hitters off balance.
The current love affair with saves started in the 1980’s approximately. I remember in the Bay Area where Eck would get the ball in the 9th, no matter what else was going on, but only if it was a precise save situation. I thought it sucked then. Bobby has not been quite so anal about it as Tony LaRussa was back then, but still, we need to sometimes let a guy pitch one plus innings, if his pitch count is down for the week. Doesn’t seem to be happening these days with our Braves.
Lew I know it is tomorrow already, but a belated Happy Birthday to my friend from up north! How is Dale looking these days?? Give my best to the misses. In one of your earlier blogs, you mentioned something about missing out on the cake??? Are you a type 2 guy too??? Lots of us around.
Nite all. I am tempted to say, it’s just another game, but these hurt for a while. As Tommy Boy would have said, “That’s gonna leave a mark!”
By siggy
June 15, 2007 2:58 AM | Link to this
“This was the first time in 28 games this season Minnesota won when trailing after eight innings” snakebitten braves
By Michael Procton
June 15, 2007 2:59 AM | Link to this
The Pythagorean theorem, as Bill James called it, was a formula designed to relate how many runs a team scored and allowed to its won-lost record. The most common way to express it is
Winning Pct = WPct = —————— RS^2 + RA^2
By Ralph
June 15, 2007 3:01 AM | Link to this
1 Saltalamacchia did no worse than Thorman.#2 Cox leaves the pitchers in to long until the Braves can’t catch up. The Braves are not a catch up team, not lately. Anyway if you know how to look at the box score, that will tell you who did what. And by the way an idiot should never use the word moron. Shame on you.
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 3:02 AM | Link to this
Homeboy Upstairs Could you please get Brayan up to Cleveland tomorrow morning, and send Mr. Orr to Richmond for a while. I hear it’s nice there at the beach in the summer.
And while your at it, could you please just call the GM in Cincinnati and ask him nicely if he could ship over Jeff Conine, and tell him you have some really nice mid level pitchers in the minors, and one might be a good deal for him in a year or two. Send him either Gunderson or Gustafson or Hyde. Heck send him two of them if he insists. Send Paronto back down for now, so he can get himself back to where he was before that hammy strain.
And maybe you and Bobby could think about sending Kyle down for a few starts, and take a flier on one of those nice young lefties at Mississippi. We at the blog PROMISE not to second guess you (N8, you gotta promise!) if the kid falls on his face. How far away can Anthony Lerew be from being healthy. He had 1 out of 2 decent starts, and maybe the good one was a fluke, but maybe not.
Last though Mr. Schuerholz, lets do all we can to hang onto Jarrod, unless you are just totally blown away. Use Yunel if you must, or send Elvis out for a decent #3, if anybody is selling. BUT, he must be a decent middle rotation guy. Maybe somebody like Noah Lowry of the Giants. We would still have the one you don’t trade (Escobar/Andrus) and Lillibridge in reserve. Sorry, but one more question: Have we given any thought of trying Lillibridge out in CF?? And, can someone ask him to grow a mustache, that is, if he is shaving yet. He needs to look older than 14.
That’s all sir, and please call me via the blog if you have any other needs that I can assist with.
Your welcome, in advance.
Wayne in UT
By David O'Brien
June 15, 2007 3:03 AM | Link to this
BravesDave, I understand the frustration level soaring and all, but this line: “McCann is in a complete funk�offensively and defensively.”
Huh? You write this hours after McCann hit a home run off Johan Santana, who held lefty hitters to a .141 average and two homers with 32 freakin’ strikeouts in 85 at-bats before tonight.
I guess the “total funk” was on pause for a moment.
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 3:13 AM | Link to this
Homeboy Upstairs Could you please get Brayan up to Cleveland tomorrow morning, and send Mr. Orr to Richmond for a while. I hear it’s nice there at the beach in the summer.
And while your at it, could you please just call the GM in Cincinnati and ask him nicely if he could ship over Jeff Conine, and tell him you have some really nice mid level pitchers in the minors, and one might be a good deal for him in a year or two. Send him either Gunderson or Gustafson or Hyde. Heck send him two of them if he insists. Send Paronto back down for now, so he can get himself back to where he was before that hammy strain.
And maybe you and Bobby could think about sending Kyle down for a few starts, and take a flier on one of those nice young lefties at Mississippi. We at the blog PROMISE not to second guess you (N8, you gotta promise!) if the kid falls on his face. How far away can Anthony Lerew be from being healthy. He had 1 out of 2 decent starts, and maybe the good one was a fluke, but maybe not.
Last though Mr. Schuerholz, lets do all we can to hang onto Jarrod, unless you are just totally blown away. Use Yunel if you must, or send Elvis out for a decent #3, if anybody is selling. BUT, he must be a decent middle rotation guy. Maybe somebody like Noah Lowry of the Giants. We would still have the one you don’t trade (Escobar/Andrus) and Lillibridge in reserve. Sorry, but one more question: Have we given any thought of trying Lillibridge out in CF?? And, can someone ask him to grow a mustache, that is, if he is shaving yet. He needs to look older than 14.
That’s all sir, and please call me via the blog if you have any other needs that I can assist with.
Your welcome, in advance.
Wayne in UT
By Peerless' Mama
June 15, 2007 3:13 AM | Link to this
I enjoyed the part where Stark defended himself against Boras.
Both have a right to their opinions, I guess, especially if there is a book/player to sell….
I’m not one to immediately dismiss or hate a writer just because they have a negative theory about my favorite team or a player on my favorite team.
That sounds too much like a Bama fan.
If that were the case Peerless’ Mama would be very angry about the whole Vick thing…..notice how it has gone away from the national news for a minute?
There must be something else going on in the world.
DOB: I’ve just started reading your blogs and like it MUCH BETTER THAN THE CHOP CHICK….but she’s just a fan, and not a pro like you, I guess.
STARK: I might actually buy the book after it gets reduced on Amazon. No offense.
MATTHEW: Nice to hear from you again…whoever you are this time.
What are there 5 versions of you on here???
Peerless’ Mama………….
By mr baseball
June 15, 2007 3:14 AM | Link to this
After a month long stretch of generally putrid alll around play climaxed by last night’s debacle, the Braves are amazingly still a mere 2 1/2 games behind the Mets. Given how the team is playing, a mention of how close they are to the division lead is probably meaningless, but it’s still a fact. The Braves are in contention mathematically, but whether they’re realistic contenders will likely be determined in the next few weeks.
We will see in the next 10 days or so whether this team has the cohones to challenge the Mets & Phillies for the division title, or whether they will meekly fade away like last season. Last night notwithstanding, this team does not have the excuse of a miserable bullpen to prevent them from returning to the post-season.
The starting pitching may not be that great, but there are a lot of teams that are contending with suspect rotations. The Indians have 2 studs, a journeyman and 2 guys who are a combined 3-10 with ERAs way over 6, one of whom just got demoted.
The Braves just got swept by a team with 1 major league caliber veteran starting pitcher, a mostly no-name bullpen & huge holes offensively at 4 positions. The Twins payroll is maybe 2/3 of what the Braves is, and their injury problems are at least as severe. But they’ve got a manager with a functioning brain, players who seem to have an idea of how to play the game and the ability to actually produce when the game is on the line.
The Braves were winning earlier this season because they were getting runners on base and driving them in. If they keep failing at their current rate with RISP, the season will be over before the All-Star break.
Whatever tinkering Cox is doing with the lineup requires one decision I don’t think he is capable of making. If he is serious about waking this team up, he has to start by dropping Andruw to 6th or 7th in the batting order. He should not be allowed to bat in front of either McCann or Francouer, and in regards to his spot in the lineup relative to Francouer, Cox needs to heed the words of Offspring: “You gotta keep ‘em separated.”
Given the current state of affairs in Braves land, that song might make an appropriate lyric for tomorrow’s blog, with a definitely topical title.
“COME OUT AND PLAY.”
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 3:15 AM | Link to this
Fastasballs* (what does that mean, btw?) I don’t think you get much for Wickman at this point. Good closer, not great. Probably the last year. Maybe a utility infielder (Woodward type) or a midlevel prospect. Actually since we got him from Cleveland, and convinced him to stay this year, I think you gotta give him a little say in what happens to him, if we do become sellers.
Matt I hear what you are saying about Willie. I can’t help but to believe that he would return to his comfort zone. I would hope not, but some guys are not cut out to be full timers. Diaz and Willie are doing great in their current configuration. Why would you want to mess with success?? You have a good guy playing about half the time, and another good guy to come off the bench in later innings.
Earlier, I was clamoring for Thorman to play full time, and now that he has, I can see that he was not ready for it. Maybe never will be, but I am not willing to totally give up on him yet. Would love to see us get Conine or someone like him to share duties at first. I don’t think Salty is the answer this year, although I am not opposed to giving him a shot either.
By David O'Brien
June 15, 2007 3:16 AM | Link to this
BravesDave, I understand the frustration level soaring and all, but this line: “McCann is in a complete funk?offensively and defensively.”
Huh? You write this hours after McCann hit a home run off Johan Santana, who held lefty hitters to a .141 average and two homers with 32 freakin’ strikeouts in 85 at-bats before tonight.
I guess the “total funk” was on pause for a moment….
Person responsible for the Zevon book at my hotel. You are extremely cool. Thanks a bunch. I will dive into that thing immediatley.
By Double Deuce
June 15, 2007 3:16 AM | Link to this
Couple of points here. For those of you who say McCann should have caught Escobar’s throw, if he had waited for the ball before making the tag the runner is safe. Escobars throw, if lower, gets the runner out. Sorry, Escobar’s going to be a fine player, but no excuse for not being able to throw a ball 70 feet in the right place. Don’t want to hear he’s not played a lot of third base. Good throw, runners out. Not McCann’s fault.
I think the most important issue for the Braves is the same one they faced last year, and its not pitching. Its leadership. Somewhere, somehow, someone has to stand up and hold these guys accountable. Every team goes thru periods like this. The ones that become better are the ones that have someone in the clubhouse who stands up and shakes a few trees, gets in a few peoples faces and make them understand what it takes to compete….and that’s 100% effort every freakin’ day. Take a look at the veterans on the Braves. Who is there to step and take that role? Who is there to stand in Andrew’s face and tell him he’s killing this team with his half assed performance at the plate? Who is there to tell these young guys it’s not OK to leave guys in scoring position every freakin’ night? Chipper? He would be a logical choice, but I just don’t think that’s his personality. Smoltz? Yeah, but is a pitcher supposed to be an enforcer? Don’t think that would work. Bobby? Should be him but that won’t happen. That is the real problem here. Who is there that cares enough to stand up and confront these guys and make them understand that the reason they have an opportunity to make a great living playing a game we all love is that they have an obligation to the team that pays them and the fans that support them to compete every single game of the year, every inning of the season. Where does that leadership come from? Answer that question, find that person and the Braves have a chance. It’s not lack of talent, it’s lack of leadership and accountability.
By OddJob
June 15, 2007 3:16 AM | Link to this
Everybody and I mean everybody clamored for Salty at 1st.Everybody thought Thorman was limited and Salty was the better offensive as well as DEFENSIVE choice.I’m disappointed in this loss.I think it is significant beyond one game.I think Chipper would make at least one of those plays down 3rd base line if he was 100%.I think Salty panicked after bobbling the ball and may well have made the out even after had he picked it up clean and threw quickly.I think McCann is playing at a much lower level both offensively and defensively than last season and his error at the plate is just more of the same.I don’t think anybody would have thought leaving Salty in was significant,or that not guarding the line was a bad choice if the ball had been hit in a different spot.What I’m saying wise fans is people get disappointed and second guess sometimes even if they never really had a first guess.I think this is one of those times.
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 3:23 AM | Link to this
I was just wondering earlier tonight at what point in the season would the Braves promote a couple of their outstanding lower level players to the next level up??? I was thinking primarily about KK, the first sacker in Myrtle Beach. He has been on fire as of late. Also, Tommy Hanson needs to get a promo up to Myrtle Beach. We might need him by summer of next year in Atlanta. Get him to MB soon, then if he excels there, its off to Missississississippi.
By Andy Warhol
June 15, 2007 3:29 AM | Link to this
Salvador, you are a tremendous artist, and your line-up suggestions are good ones, but I must put my two cents in.
Here’s my line-up for Bobby:
Leading off: A gun slingin’ Elvis Presley
In the 2 hole: Marilyn Monroe’s lips
3rd: A can of Campbell’s Tomato Soup
Batting cleanup: A Box of Brillo Pads
5th: Liz Taylor
6th: Jackie O.
7th: a bottle of Coca-Cola
8th: 30 Mona Lisa’s
9th: A Banana
and as closer:
The Electric Chair
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 3:33 AM | Link to this
My take on the Bore-us vs Stark battle on the blog: You can’t blame either of them for what they said or did, as they are both just salesmen, selling their wares. Neither is totally right or totally wrong.
That still doesn’t change the fact that I wish more players had the cahones of Jake Peavy, and just fire the dude.
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 3:39 AM | Link to this
Lew My two sons who are still at home gave me the most awesome Father’s Day present today: A tomato plant for our flower garden! I can’t remember the specific name of the ‘mater, but it is one that produces those “big ‘uns” for sandwich making.
It’s gonna be a great summer!!!
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 3:54 AM | Link to this
Dave Just in case you ever catch up on the late night posts. A few days ago, after somewhat taking one of my post a bit out of context, you ripped me pretty good. You made some excellent points, but I was throwing out a lot of what-ifs too.
A couple of hours later, when I returned, I posted a long-a*******ed explanation about what I was trying to say. I kinda half way thought you would have responded: Maybe something like one of these statements.
Wayne you are so screwed up. why don’t you take a hike, or
Wayne, I guess I didn’t fully see your point, but I still think you are screwed up, or
Wayne, who gives a crap what you think, or
Sorry it hurt so bad, but you deserved it, but here’s a t-shirt anyway, or
Wayne, I don’t know why such a dumb a$$ like you still blogs here.
Just thought I would have heard something. Did I miss it? I know you are busy, but dang, to get that much of a heatedd reaction out of you, I would have expected a response to my response. Just wondering???
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 3:59 AM | Link to this
JS Imposter: Some people are born jerks, and others have to work at it. Can you understand humor?????
This is what makes a blog great, as a person who thinks they are funny can use a “cute” screen name and then say things that aren’t funny at all, all the while being a coward to hide their true identity.
Have a nice nite, a-hole.
By mike
June 15, 2007 4:06 AM | Link to this
Andruw is overrated and the Braves should rid themselves of him while there are still some teams that don’t view him in that light, because eventually, word will leak out.
By jed
June 15, 2007 4:09 AM | Link to this
oddjob—as one of those in favor of replacing thorman at 1b (with salty or chipper), let me clarify: i thought woodward should have been the 9th inning defensive replacement, not thorman. to me, thor doesnt qualify as a “defensive replacement.”
i cant follow the logic in the way the braves are handling the salty situation. if you want him to play 1b—an idea i’ve been in favor of for some time—why wouldnt you have sent him back to the minors to learn the position? and putting him at 1b, why wouldnt you have a 3rd catcher (pena) onhand? and, ultimately, why would you think a radical move like teaching salty (a rookie) first base in the majors was reasonable, when you think moving a vet 3b (chipper) to 1b in the middle of the year is ‘unreasonable’? none of this stuff really makes a lot of sense if you think about it. seems to me some mistakes are being made by people who should know better.
By jed
June 15, 2007 4:21 AM | Link to this
wayne—i think that WAS john schuerholz. i mean, the name was spelled right and everything. the regulars here long since gave up trying to spell our GM’s name and just refer to him as JS. if so, be sure and tell us if those Official Atlanta Braves knee pads come in “braves red” or just standard-issue blue. come on…it’s funny, wayne!
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 4:35 AM | Link to this
jed: I guess there are some guys on here who are smart enough to spell. To me, and maybe I lead a sheltered life, it wasn’t funny. I don’t know, there are some things that are funny, and others that cross the line of being funny, and being the type of potty/homo humor that one would chose to engage in at a comedy club. I don’t normally get into that kind of humor. If you think it funny, then we are certainly different in that respect. I guess Braves fans can agree to disagree about appropriate humor on the blog.
You are right about there being a lot of strange decisions going on in the braves dugout and front office these days. I wonder if something is in the works?
By Bob, Journalist
June 15, 2007 4:40 AM | Link to this
Coach*, I’ve been sorta indirectly expressing my growing concerns with Kelly’s recent plate appearances … not really his performance in terms of success but his approach … he’s certainly not Frenchy but somehow it’s not what I’ve grown accustomed to seeing.
Speaking of Waterloo, one of my favorite memories of all time was sailing from Sorento to Capri with Lord Nelson’s grand, grand …. grand niece; you do the counting. To my mind, one of the most beautiful sights in the world is to be had approaching the Isle of Capri, especially when the skies are clear and the sea is relatively calm! Awesome!!
We all should be appreciative of the job Wickman has done … but, an overpowering pitcher he is not … and he too seems somehow different … not what I’ve grown accustomed to seeing out of Bob. A pretty good pitcher closed out the eighth … looked pretty sharp … why didn’t he continue into the ninth with Bob ready to baby seal the deal, if needed?
No matter how much Salty looks like Cato’s kin, I would have still preferred Willie in left and Matt at First. I’m just not comfortable that he has learned to play within himself under pressure … too eager.
Still. I hope he plays again tonight … just to see the same lineup for two games in a row would be refreshing … do you think Hudson could make a token start?
Cato’s no Pythagorean but he’s wise beyond their age difference, even if it’s squared … especially when it comes to his analyses of what’s wrong and what’s right with this collection of players … at least from the outside looking in.
Remember what Mama said boys, Leave the statistics at home boys, please don’t take ‘em to town … but, we didn’t listen and Mama cried. It’s all about heart and soul and leadership and planning and direction and chemistry and confidence and approach and ego and patience and spirit and team and coaching … right Coach? Winning is simple if you’ll just forget the statistics and remember the ABCDEFGHIs of the game!
Hire Greg Maddox as hitting coach and all will be well … at least somebody needs to provide definitive leadership for these kids … and in no uncertain terms … “this is a democracy but I’m the only one eligible to vote and this is how we’re going to do it!”
Goodnight Miss Allen
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 4:50 AM | Link to this
Jed, to emphasize my thoughts on appropriate humor, what if a pastor who was a great Braves fan liked to visit to keep up with the team. Would you think it appropriate that he/she would be subjected to this sort of humor? I would not want my Bishop to have to read that garbage. I know, I know, I throw around a$$ sometimes and go on the offensive sometimes with jerks, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Is our society coming to a point where you can’t even engage in dialogue on a blog without being subjected to this type of humor?
Or is it funny that someone says I should go to John Schuerholz office to take care of some of his needs, while using knee pads? I was writing a funny post as if I was going to have a conversation with Mr. Schuerholz, and our “anonymous friend” thought it would be funny to make that statement. I guess upon further reflection, that is where some peoples heads/hearts are today. Maybe I should just go away……..read the papers and box scores, and hope for an occasional TBS broadcast.
Whaddya think?
By serbok
June 15, 2007 4:54 AM | Link to this
Ok guys~ here’s a thought~(did I hear giggling in the back row to my left??) hm/ During the tampa bay buccaneers march to the superbowl, Gruden brought in several high profile people of athletic accomplishments, and had them speak to “our” team. To be honest cant remember who they were, one is a boxer who at the time was considered the best champion pound for pound in boxing, it’s on tip of the tongue, very famous guy, you would recognize in a heartbeat!Pi$$es me off I cant member, however, after that lil speach they had a few other outstanding buccaneer players from our past talk to the team, including Leroy Selmon of course~( Iknow the fighters name dammit!}
HAHAAAAAAAAAA just came to me~ A Mr. ROY JONES! What I’m gettin at how do you guys feel about bringing in motivational winners to talk to these kids? Hell~some would be honored? As the braves have quite a list to draw from. These kids need guidance and most of us know, for whatever reason they are’nt gonna get it from Cox.Nor Pendleton, I think it wouldnt hurt, tho it may not be feasible in this situation,maybe(Holyfield?) you catch my drift? Ya know Truley Masters of there sport. We need inspiration from somewhere!, Its like these kids are out there on the field and in their own worlds sometimes. Obviousley I realize this isnt NFL or NBA Hell Try to get the TRUE CHAMP in to talk for half an hour (Muhammad Ali) I’m sure that ones not possible~ however its just a thought? LT even, Anyone who excelled and get the message across how to never stop~ The Bravo’s do not have ANY motivational speakers in there clubhouse.BC doesnt have a clue~ I dunno this thought may be way off the mark, Take into consideration if it were the right speakers, AARON whoever~ might blow the young kid’s minds away? It worked for the tampa bay bucs~ I do understand 16 games as opposed to 162.
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 4:59 AM | Link to this
Jed, to emphasize my thoughts on appropriate humor, what if a pastor who was a great Braves fan liked to visit to keep up with the team. Would you think it appropriate that he/she would be subjected to this sort of humor? I would not want my Bishop to have to read that garbage. I know, I know, I throw around a$$ sometimes and go on the offensive sometimes with jerks, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Is our society coming to a point where you can’t even engage in dialogue on a blog without being subjected to this type of humor?
Or is it funny that someone says I should go to John Schuerholz office to take care of some of his needs, while using knee pads? I was writing a funny post as if I was going to have a conversation with Mr. Schuerholz, and our “anonymous friend” thought it would be funny to make that statement. I guess upon further reflection, that is where some peoples heads/hearts are today. Maybe I should just go away……..read the papers and box scores, and hope for an occasional TBS broadcast.
Whaddya think?
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 5:04 AM | Link to this
sorry about the double post…
By serbok
June 15, 2007 5:06 AM | Link to this
Double Deuce youre 3:16 A.M. post s what made me recollect how gruden helped to motivate our team~ I’m sure This idead will be booed out of the river, however??????????????????????????????????? If’in they aint nobody in the clubhouse that could do it~ Might be something to look at?
By serbok
June 15, 2007 5:17 AM | Link to this
WAYNE I just read your last post, seems someone made you uncomfortable with their humor? I will scroll up after this post to get more in line to the tone of the posts. However I stopped to immediately post here to you!!!
First Off, I do not want to see you take that road to perdition~ I am an extreme left wing liberal, Free speech should be protected at ALL cost!!!!! (LISTENING MR BUSH?)\ You are one of the better posters on our blog~ I use the word “our” as it is for you and me, and even mut’s fans~ you are a regular with good posts more often than not~I respect your posts. Do I think that I personally would ever wanted sit down and have a beer with ya~ I think not~doesnt mean I dont respect you tho~ need to develop a bit more thick skin my friend~
By Bob, Journalist
June 15, 2007 5:19 AM | Link to this
Jed, I know it’s late … I was shutting down as the computer’s overheating when I saw your JS comments to Wayne.
It’s hard for me to imagine your suggesting, even in jest, that that was John Schuerholz. Harder still is the notion that you find such trash to be anything but what it is … despicable filth from someone of ill repute, or at least would be if we knew who it was … to consider the post and/or the person funny is to defame good humor and show disrespect for its target.
From my perspective, the one so using his name should be permanently banned.
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 5:34 AM | Link to this
serbok it would have to be a diet coke, and I think you might be surprised at how thick my skin is. I love to tease and joke, and I can take one too, but not filth.
Bob, J thanks, and get to bed, as I will very soon. Very late here, probably very early where you are….
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 5:43 AM | Link to this
Serbok I am not sure who said it, but I believe that my freedoms’ stop when they infringe upon your rights. There is a forum for everything, and filth has it’s own forum where you or I should not be exposed to it unless it is our choice. That would preclude your protection at all costs.
BTW, on September 12th, 2001, a lot of people weren’t as worried about all of their freedoms as they are in an election year. How soon we forget.
I have personally not felt or known anyone who has felt the long arm of the government infringing upon my/their freedoms lately. I wonder about the motives of some who would worry about all their freedoms being violated.
BTW, how old are you??? I was very liberal minded when I was young.
By David O'Brien
June 15, 2007 5:46 AM | Link to this
Wayne, I honestly can’t remember exactly what your response was, or why I didn’t answer back. Probably just got very busy or something. I don’t know. But believe me, it was nothing personal. Been a very hectic three days here on the blog and with some computer glitches at the office, etc.
OK, gotta catch a cab to the airport. Grinch, as for not having a direct flight, it had less to do with expense and more to do with wanting to stay on Delta, where I get the miles and where I don’t have to worry about getting bumped if the flight’s 30-percent oversold like so many others these days. When you absolutely, positively have to get there … like the commercial says (though not a Delta commercial, it applies).
Later. Talk to you all from Cleveland too many hours from now.
By David O'Brien
June 15, 2007 5:52 AM | Link to this
Wow, just saw that, “BTW, how old are you? I was very liberal minded when I was young.”
I can sense a retort coming after that line, which definitely could be viewed as more than a bit condescending.
OK, I’ll log off now. Please confine that to a brief back-and-forth between the two of you (he says, hoping it’s not just wishful thinking to make said request).
By Bob, Journalist
June 15, 2007 5:52 AM | Link to this
I have nothing but respect for Serbok and honorable folks sharing the liberal view but such filth and verbal abuse are not the tools of honorable folks, regardless of their value set … and shouldn’t be tolerated!
Neither liberals nor conservatives really believe in unlimited entitlement, regardless of protestations … not among decent and honorable folk … the fact that they’re honorable and decent bespeaks a belief in privilege and responsibility.
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 5:55 AM | Link to this
Dave, thanks. I too have flown many miles on Delta, so have a safe trip. Don’t travel as much these days though, and I DO miss the upgrades!
By serbok
June 15, 2007 5:58 AM | Link to this
Wayne in Utah You may or not be surprised at how some of these so-called religous take humor today? I mean,if they cannot take that type of benign humour, then they are ppl I personally would not wanna be talkin with~! Course not speakin for you! only myself. I dont have any filth that I deal with on a day to day basis. Filth is a concept, that is predicated from earlier experiences in life that have made one feel very uncomfortable, about events that may or may not been going on at the time? Situations like that can corrupt a young child’s fragile eggshell mind. You may~or may not~ be quite surprised at after all the scandals organized religion has put people thru~ that the “person” you are referring to, may just actually bust out laffing? or at least understand, the way society is heading, may shake his/her head, then commence to preach on depravity? I do feel very sorry for ALL involved:o( However~ If one wants to be on the pulse of life~ one should not be surprised at anything that may or may not fall one’s way
By serbok
June 15, 2007 6:03 AM | Link to this
God is a Concept by which we measure our pain I’ll say it again God is a Concept by which we measure our pain I don’t believe in magic I don’t believe in I-ching I don’t believe in Bible I don’t believe in Tarot I don’t believe in Hitler I don’t believe in Jesus I don’t believe in Kennedy I don’t believe in Buddha I don’t believe in Mantra I don’t believe in Gita I don’t believe in Yoga I don’t believe in Kings I don’t believe in Elvis I don’t believe in Zimmerman I don’t believe in Beatles I just believe in me…and that reality
The dream is over What can I say? the Dream is Over Yesterday I was the Dreamweaver But now I’m reborn I was the Walrus But now I’m John and so dear friends you’ll just have to carry on The Dream is over
By Ninth inning QUESTIONS
June 15, 2007 6:14 AM | Link to this
Yeah, I’m with MANY of you guys, wondering why in the WORLD our first baseman, making his FIRST start EVER at the position, is still IN the ball game, with a 2-0 lead, when our regular guy, who may not be hitting, has GOT to be close to the major league leaders in fielding percentage among first basemen. I saw yesterday he’s at .995. I didn’t read all the way down the blog, and I’m sure somebody pointed out that we wouldn’t have had a backup catcher, but if worst comes to worst, you use Pete Orr, and be done with it. MUCH better than having a guy play in the NINTH inning, with literally, ZERO experience. As far as Escobar not guarding the lines….NO ANSWER here. Makes no sense to me. I’m still trying to figure out what that horrendous throw was all about though as well. I’ve also got to agree that this team is MUCH more dangerous with Soriano as its closer. Only problem is that Wick is getting paid $5M, and won’t come back next year if he’s just going to be the 8th inning guy. Closing out the game with Soriano AND Wickman, no matter WHO finishes the game, is STILL much better than Yates and Soriano. Remember, Wickman’s still got to pitch the 8th inning, and with the experience he has at closing ball games, I don’t really see nerves being a problem with him, so, in my opinion, if he’s going to give up a run in the 9th, he probably would have in the 8th as well. I think it just means he didn’t have it that day, that day being yesterday. He’s still been pretty damn lights out though, and that IS a fact.
As far as Soriano goes. I could have SWORN that when I read about him PRIOR to last season beginning, that BOTH he and Francisco Liriano (Twins rookie phenom last year who injured his arm in August and had to have Tommy John surgery), were starting the year in the pen, but were SURE to end the year in the starting rotation, because they were both so electric. I’m almost POSITIVE that Soriano was a starter his whole minor league career, and just had to start in the pen because they wanted his arm in Seattle, and didn’t have an opening in the rotation for a rookie pitcher. Then he was just too lights out to move out of the bullpen. Maybe not though, because now that I think about it, didn’t the Mariners trade us Soriano for Horacio? Doesn’t seem like ANYBODY in their right mind would swap Raffy’s nasty arm for Horacio’s, if they thought at ALL that Soriano could be a starting pitcher. Sounds like I just answered my own question, but just in case I’m wrong, does anybody know what I’m talking about?
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 6:14 AM | Link to this
serbok I hear what your saying, but don’t necessarily espouse to the same thinking. That being said, I have enjoyed our late night encounters, and look forward to many more. As Bob stated much more eloquently than I can dream of saying, certain behavior/humor should not be tolerated on an open forum. I think our ability to tolerate such humor is determined by our life experiences, as you have stated.
and Dave was worried about this interaction???
He is right though wanting to limit certain subjects of conversation, as if we tried to have this conversation at 8pm, I suspect it would have turned into a train wreck on the blog.
Anyway, the thing is, I do have to get up at a reasonable hour tomorrow, although I am taking a vacation day. Until we converse again, take care!
By Ninth inning QUESTIONS
June 15, 2007 6:15 AM | Link to this
Yeah, I’m with MANY of you guys, wondering why in the WORLD our first baseman, making his FIRST start EVER at the position, is still IN the ball game, with a 2-0 lead, when our regular guy, who may not be hitting, has GOT to be close to the major league leaders in fielding percentage among first basemen. I saw yesterday he’s at .995. I didn’t read all the way down the blog, and I’m sure somebody pointed out that we wouldn’t have had a backup catcher, but if worst comes to worst, you use Pete Orr, and be done with it. MUCH better than having a guy play in the NINTH inning, with literally, ZERO experience. As far as Escobar not guarding the lines….NO ANSWER here. Makes no sense to me. I’m still trying to figure out what that horrendous throw was all about though as well. I’ve also got to agree that this team is MUCH more dangerous with Soriano as its closer. Only problem is that Wick is getting paid $5M, and won’t come back next year if he’s just going to be the 8th inning guy. Closing out the game with Soriano AND Wickman, no matter WHO finishes the game, is STILL much better than Yates and Soriano. Remember, Wickman’s still got to pitch the 8th inning, and with the experience he has at closing ball games, I don’t really see nerves being a problem with him, so, in my opinion, if he’s going to give up a run in the 9th, he probably would have in the 8th as well. I think it just means he didn’t have it that day, that day being yesterday. He’s still been pretty damn lights out though, and that IS a fact.
As far as Soriano goes. I could have SWORN that when I read about him PRIOR to last season beginning, that BOTH he and Francisco Liriano (Twins rookie phenom last year who injured his arm in August and had to have Tommy John surgery), were starting the year in the pen, but were SURE to end the year in the starting rotation, because they were both so electric. I’m almost POSITIVE that Soriano was a starter his whole minor league career, and just had to start in the pen because they wanted his arm in Seattle, and didn’t have an opening in the rotation for a rookie pitcher. Then he was just too lights out to move out of the bullpen. Maybe not though, because now that I think about it, didn’t the Mariners trade us Soriano for Horacio? Doesn’t seem like ANYBODY in their right mind would swap Raffy’s nasty arm for Horacio’s, if they thought at ALL that Soriano could be a starting pitcher. Sounds like I just answered my own question, but just in case I’m wrong, does
By Ninth inning QUESTIONS
June 15, 2007 6:16 AM | Link to this
Yeah, I’m with MANY of you guys, wondering why in the WORLD our first baseman, making his FIRST start EVER at the position, is still IN the ball game, with a 2-0 lead, when our regular guy, who may not be hitting, has GOT to be close to the major league leaders in fielding percentage among first basemen. I saw yesterday he’s at .995. I didn’t read all the way down the blog, and I’m sure somebody pointed out that we wouldn’t have had a backup catcher, but if worst comes to worst, you use Pete Orr, and be done with it. MUCH better than having a guy play in the NINTH inning, with literally, ZERO experience. As far as Escobar not guarding the lines….NO ANSWER here. Makes no sense to me. I’m still trying to figure out what that horrendous throw was all about though as well. I’ve also got to agree that this team is MUCH more dangerous with Soriano as its closer. Only problem is that Wick is getting paid $5M, and won’t come back next year if he’s just going to be the 8th inning guy. Closing out the game with Soriano AND Wickman, no matter WHO finishes the game, is STILL much better than Yates and Soriano. Remember, Wickman’s still got to pitch the 8th inning, and with the experience he has at closing ball games, I don’t really see nerves being a problem with him, so, in my opinion, if he’s going to give up a run in the 9th, he probably would have in the 8th as well. I think it just means he didn’t have it that day, that day being yesterday. He’s still been pretty damn lights out though, and that IS a fact.
As far as Soriano goes. I could have SWORN that when I read about him PRIOR to last season beginning, that BOTH he and Francisco Liriano (Twins rookie phenom last year who injured his arm in August and had to have Tommy John surgery), were starting the year in the pen, but were SURE to end the year in the starting rotation, because they were both so electric. I’m almost POSITIVE that Soriano was a starter his whole minor league career, and just had to start in the pen because they wanted his arm in Seattle, and didn’t have an opening in the rotation for a rookie pitcher. Then he was just too lights out to move out of the bullpen. Maybe not though, because now that I think about it, didn’t the Mariners trade us Soriano for Horacio? Doesn’t seem like ANYBODY in their right mind would swap Raffy’s nasty arm for Horacio’s, if they thought at ALL that Soriano could be a starting pitcher. Sounds like I just answered my own question, but just in case I’m wrong, does anybody know what I’m talking about?
By God
June 15, 2007 6:17 AM | Link to this
I don’t believe in John Lennon.
By Bob, Journalist
June 15, 2007 6:18 AM | Link to this
*Filth is a concept, that is predicated from earlier experiences in life that have made one feel very uncomfortable, about events that may or may not been going on at the time?
Situations like that can corrupt a young child’s fragile eggshell mind. You may~or may not~ be quite surprised at after all the scandals organized religion has put people thru~ that the “person” you are referring to, may just actually bust out laffing? or at least understand, the way society is heading, may shake his/her head, then commence to preach on depravity?
I do feel very sorry for ALL involved:o( However~ If one wants to be on the pulse of life~ one should not be surprised at anything that may or may not fall one’s way.*
Goodness! Hah, gee and whoa … too deep for me! How many layers of the onion do you have to peel to understand those pearls?
That view doesn’t seem liberal, just agenda driven.
What did I miss? What does JS have to do with Religion? It’s daytime in Georgia … almost here in Tennessee … not supposed to talk about that which should not be named!
By okoou
June 15, 2007 6:19 AM | Link to this
why did you post lyrics?
By Wayne in Utah
June 15, 2007 6:21 AM | Link to this
Serbok Dude, you gotta believe in Elvis man! I just saw him about 3 weeks ago ordering a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in a diner in Bozeman, Montana.
As for me, I believe I should have gone to bed about 2 hours ago!!!
By serbok
June 15, 2007 6:27 AM | Link to this
WAYNE I Have been around the sun 49 times. I am not a proponent of knowledge~ I can understand all kinds of new ideas that are put forth my way~very enlightning! I am trying to say to you is that I am me as you are he and we are all together! A person Scribes to how shall we say~a knowing of unknowingest? All I’m tryin to say is~ In the End there isnt any knowing! There is faith. Science Science and faith Delusional brainwashing thru out a lifetime To sum up~ In My own happy being~ DO NOT TRUST Mosques, Temples,Synagoges Do not trust organized religion~ as there WILL ALWAYS be an ALTERIOR motive! I myself am highly spiritual~ Dont believe in any of the books that precipitate death! I’m gonna look up JJS and go to the bird calling club~ see, feel, hear god! I honestly~ do not know if there is a deity! However if I’m wrong~ I hope its a woman whose a braves fan:o) Till then I dont take any of these so-called holy books very seriously! I tried to read the bible once!!!! Do you Know what The first line in the bible is?
By serbok
June 15, 2007 6:31 AM | Link to this
LOL WAYNE PEACE:o)
By Plate Appearance
June 15, 2007 6:41 AM | Link to this
ON WICKMAN’S BLOWN SAVE:
The blown save really wasn’t Wickman’s fault.
Had Salty and Escobar made the plays on the two grounders hit to them, the Braves would have been out of the inning with the win.
In fact Escobar would not have even needed to go home with his throw had Salty made the play at first. He could have made a more routine throw to first.
Perhaps Bobby will now do what he probably now wishes he would have done — bring Thorman in for a late inning defensive replacement for Salty.
It was a very tough loss indeed — for the Braves and especially for Tim Hudson! Great start Tim!
However, that they hit a tough pitcher like Santana as well as they did, enough so to be two runs up in the 9th, is at least an encouraging sign of hopefully better things to come!.
By tcp
June 15, 2007 7:02 AM | Link to this
I said it before and I will say it again……Bobby Cox need to step down and the fans are too soft in expressing their displeasure about him. NY, Phili, and Cleveland fans would give the braves organization an ear full for Bobby’s release. We won 1 WS and Florida won 2 in their short existing. Why is W.Harris not our leadoff hitter????// Why is AJ still hitting cleanup????// Why is Soriano not our closer????// Our regular lineup should be(1)Willie Harris (2)E.Renteria (3)Chipper Jones (4)J.Francoeur (5)Brain McCann (6)J.Saltalamacchia (7)K.Johnson (8) A. Jones and our closer should be Soriano. That lineup there will score alot more runs if Bobby Cox would swallow his pride and stop pampering his favorite player…….A.Jones!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By Ron Roberts
June 15, 2007 7:11 AM | Link to this
Damn, it’s only one game, but I have to throw a told ya so with regards to our making changes that affect our defense.
When you’re struggling to score runs (hey, Santana’s good and we scratched two off of him, so there’s some moral victory there…) you absolutely CAN NOT go into the game with an inferior defense.
Another Tim Hudson gem wasted. Yunel’s throw might have gotten the guy out at home, but McCann still had to tag him and not lose the ball in a collision (he wasn’t a forced runner). JasonInMaine said it best, earlier, when he said it was “unfortunate” that the ball had to find Saltalamacchia on a key play.
Folks, that’s been my point about having the kid out there playing a position he’s not well-versed in all along. I won’t clamor about his 0-for-last night because he went up against one of the best in the game, but I’ve said it time and again, we have to trot the best pitching and defense out there, too. This franchise has seen its finest years with good pitching and defense and we went against that last night, defensively.
I hope Jarrod shakes it off and (if he’s in the lineup tonight) goes out there without it in his head. But at a key moment when we needed a sure glove at 1B in the 9th inning, we had a AA phenom call-up who was playing out of position.
Shades of Klesko in the ‘98 playoffs.
By Bill
June 15, 2007 7:14 AM | Link to this
I’m just lost for words. This team is snake bit. I have been hard on the Braves but I’m not going to get down on this team tonight. The pen overall has been good. I hope they leave Salty at first. If the Braves lose series in Cleveland it’s over. As I have said, it’s time to remake this whole team. The Braves have several players that teams would love to have at the trade deadline. If and when they change manager, please don’t give it to Pendleton.
By David O'Brien
June 15, 2007 7:20 AM | Link to this
9th Inning: Actually Wickman is making $6.5 mill, not $5 mill, and the Braves haven’t said anything about bringing him back next season anyway.
All I’m saying is, any decision on where Wickman pitches this season, what role he has, has nothing to do with the Braves’ intentions for next season. Nothing.
By Ron Roberts
June 15, 2007 7:45 AM | Link to this
And to those who wanna whine about Bob Wickman’s performance…sorry, folks…the loss wasn’t so much on Wickman. It was on our defense.
I tell ya, the fickle nature of some folks here slays me.
Wickman’s gonna blow the occasional save, but guess what? Check around some of the more elite closers in the majors have also blown saves this year.
Raphael Soriano does have closer-like stuff, but we’re FORTUNATE to have him AND Wickman in our ‘pen.
By Robert
June 15, 2007 7:54 AM | Link to this
Credit Bobby with another blown game.
That was bad managing at it’s best last night
By Daxxed
June 15, 2007 7:59 AM | Link to this
First it is not Wickmans fault that they got to liine shots. You would think that after a rookie gets burned once he would not allow it to happen again. The Braves bats are gone. If they would have scored more runs there would not have been an issue. BC needs to play both WH and MD at the same time. Maybe bench AJ. Whats the worse we can do..LOOSE!
By Braveheart
June 15, 2007 8:00 AM | Link to this
Why do morons keep asking why is Willie Harris not hitting leadoff? Bizarre.
KJ is .283/.384/.475 with 40 walks in 64 games (100 walk a year pace). He is on a pace to score over 110 runs, have over 30 doubles, over 10 triples, and 20 home runs, and drive in almost 90 runs. And he’ll also steal 10-15 bases. Chrissakes, do you guys know baseball at all?
KJ is fifth in the NL in runs scored with 45 in a tie with leadoff God Jose Reyes. KJ is sixth in the NL in walks with 40. KJ is 3rd in the NL in triples with 5. KJ is 17th in the NL in OBP. KJ is 22nd in the NL in OPS. KJ is 31st in the NL in SLG.
By Will
June 15, 2007 8:08 AM | Link to this
I dont really blame anyone for the loss last night, i just know that bad teams find ways to lose games like that. Nothing against Wickman, but Soriano is better then him, period! Cox will never in a million years make that change so i am not even gonna elaborate on it.
By Braveheart
June 15, 2007 8:09 AM | Link to this
At some point would Boras and AJ say that this is simply not working here this year. Druw needs a change of scenery before this season gets real ugly for him. Perhaps he gets rejuvenated playing for another team as he makes his final push for free agency. Not saying that is what I want but could it happen?
By Lee
June 15, 2007 8:09 AM | Link to this
DOB -
Do you get any sense of panic or uneasiness around the clubhouse these days with the players or are they mostly just passing it off as not doing the basic fundamentals of baseball?
By JC Bradbury
June 15, 2007 8:09 AM | Link to this
Here are links to the posts that Shaun mentioned above.
Is Andruw Jones Overrated?
Problems with Zone Rating
By Chris
June 15, 2007 8:16 AM | Link to this
TO: CHOP CHOP
Saying Andrew is getting older is in a round about way agreeing to what he is saying HE IS NOT THE SAME ANYMORE, THEREFORE HE IS OVERRATED!!! Boras is just mad because its the TRUTH!!
By Lew
June 15, 2007 8:18 AM | Link to this
Burgers and Dark Beer are indeed, wondrous things, as Grinch so correctly points out. However, I fail to see how Burgers and Dark Beer, or the lack, thereof, would have affected the double and triple which were fair by a total of 1 1/2 inches. I also fail to understand how Burgers and Dark Beer (or the lack thereof) would have affected Salty’s misplay at first or Escobar’s throw to the plate. But that’s just me. Hopefully the results will be better now on Shaun’s Birthday. Happy Birthday Stat Dude.
By h_charles
June 15, 2007 8:20 AM | Link to this
Tough loss. I’m not sure this one is on Wick — lot of bad luck.
DOB — Any thoughts on why Harris didn’t pinch hit for Diaz in the 8th? Righty at the plate, you want Harris’ defense in their anyway (may have turned that triple into a double), and you want to stay out of the DP (not to blame Diaz here — not a traditional DP). I don’t understand why Willie wasn’t in there. In the end it may have made a difference. I assume Cox’s loyalty was behind it —“Matt is hitting the ball hard, gotta leave him in.” However, what about your faith in Willie? Has he not done enough at the plate to show he should be in there in that situation?
By ssiscribe
June 15, 2007 8:23 AM | Link to this
Damn, I’m still mad about last night’s game. Tough way to go into my last day at the new job, in an ill mood and all.
Worse loss of the year, plain and simple. Got a great start from Hudson. Got Soriano blowing people away in the eighth. Got a homer from McCann. Got an insurance run thanks, in part, to Hoss stealing a base. And you can’t hold it. And, of course, the damn game-winner on a ball to left, just like 16 years ago in October.
Sigh. I’m with ya, Grinch. Feel like my jewels got kicked when the game ended. Lew, sorry they didn’t win on your birthday. Shaun, hope they win on yours (happy birthday).
There is one criticism I’ve always had of Bobby, and that’s the fact his corner guys never guard the line late in games (Dave Winfield down the line in left in Game 6 in 1992, for example). Felt Escobar should’ve been closer to the line, but even then, I don’t know if he gets to that ball. You gotta make plays late, and the boys just didn’t get it done.
Oh, well, on to Cleveland. Need a couple of wins before we come home. Play well and win two of three, and that’ll give a big boost coming home for the Red Sox and Schilling Monday. It’s a marathon. Last night was like tripping and falling over your own feet, but you get up and keep running.
Enjoy your Friday. The Scribe abides.
—30—
By ssiscribe
June 15, 2007 8:29 AM | Link to this
Man, I’m a mess this morning. Should read “last day at the OLD job.”
I hate bad losses!
—30—
By Herschel Talker
June 15, 2007 8:52 AM | Link to this
DOB:
OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT BOBBY HAS ANOINTED WICKMAN THE CLOSER, DO YOU SEE A LEGITIMATE REASON WHY SORIANO SHOULDN’T BE CLOSING AT LEAST SOME OF THE TIME, ESPECIALLY WHEN HE HAD ONLY 10 PITCHES IN THE 8TH? HE WOULD HAVE BLOWN THEM AWAY IN THE NINTH LAST NIGHT. YOU CAN’T HAVE A GROUNDBALL PITCHER IN THERE WITH A ROOKIE INFIELD.
By Mike
June 15, 2007 8:53 AM | Link to this
DOB…quoting the Replacements has sent this blog to stratospheric levels…how cool is that!!
By Mike
June 15, 2007 8:53 AM | Link to this
DOB…quoting the Replacements has sent this blog to stratospheric levels…how cool is that!!
By MWK
June 15, 2007 8:55 AM | Link to this
Kinda of late… But lay off Wicky, he’s blown 4 of 33 save opportunities, and only one one was legit, one was due to playing injured, and two were due to crappy defense.
By t. cleveland
June 15, 2007 9:02 AM | Link to this
All I want is to have Javy Lopez back with the Braves. I miss him soooo!
By Steve
June 15, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this
Mr O’Brien,
The single most important thing in this blog was overlooked- that you not only referenced the Replacements, but printed the lyrics to a great song by one of the greatest American rock and roll bands ever. Westerberg has always been overlooked as a songwriter and it is hard to believe that nobody in this really long blog (that I saw anyway) even mentioned the song lyric that was posted! I mean, I love baseball too, but come on!!
By Steve
June 15, 2007 9:06 AM | Link to this
Mr O’Brien,
The single most important thing in this blog was overlooked- that you not only referenced the Replacements, but printed the lyrics to a great song by one of the greatest American rock and roll bands ever. Westerberg has always been overlooked as a songwriter and it is hard to believe that nobody in this really long blog (that I saw anyway) even mentioned the song lyric that was posted! I mean, I love baseball too, but come on!!
By STRETCH
June 15, 2007 9:06 AM | Link to this
RIGHT NOW, THIS TEAM IS TOTALLY PATHETIC AND SICKNING. THEY ARE GOING TO SWEPT AGAIN STARTING TONIGHT. BOBBY COX NEEDS TO GO…NOW. THEY GOT BEAT IN THE NINTH INNING AND IT SEEMED THAT ALL THEY WERE WAITING ON WAS A PITCHING CHANGE, AND THE TWINS KNEW THAT ALL THEY HAD TO DO WAS PUT THE BALL IN PLAY AND THEY COULD WIN. HOPE THE BRAVES HITTERS LEARNED SOMETHING TONIGHT ABOUT PATIENCE AND HOW TO PLAY THE GAME. STOP SWINGING FOR THE FENCES!!!!!!
I WILL ADMIT DIAZ HIT THAT BALL ON THE BUTTON THAT WOULD HAVE SCORED CHIPPER, BUT THESE THINGS HAPPEN. BUT MAYBE IT WOULDNT HAVE IF THEY HAD NOT LEFT SOOOOOO MANY PEOPLE ON BASE…ALA ANDREW JONES!
WHY DID THEY NOT GUARD THE LINES AFTER THE FIRST BASE HIT???????????????!!!!!!! PIN THAT ONE ON THE COACHING.
DH FOR ANDREW THE REST OF THE ROAD TRIP AND IF HE AND FRENCHY HAVENT GOTTEN IT BY NOW, SIT THEM.
WHERES WILLIE HARRIS??? WHERES WILLIE HARRIS??? WHERES WILLIE HARRIS??? WHERES WILLIE HARRIS??? WHERES WILLIE HARRIS??? WHERES WILLIE HARRIS??? WHERES WILLIE HARRIS???
CHIPPERS BEEN SITTING ON THE BENCH FOR SOME TIME AND HIS FIRST TWO GAMES BACK, HE’S LOOKING BETTER THAN THE ENTIRE LINE UP!
WHY NOT LET SORIANO FINISH THE GAME, HE ONLY THREW 10 PITCHES, BUT BOBBY WANTED STICKY WICKY OUT THERE WITH HIS BEER GUT AND 87 MPH WATER BALLOONS! DO ANYBODY ELSE SEE HIM HUFFING AND PUFFING???? ERRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!
MCCANN WASNT WATCHING THE BALL, HE WAS WATCHING THE RUNNER, THATS WHY HE DIDNT CATCH IT!
ONLY TWO REALIABLE STARTERS AND 3 MAYBE 4 GOOD CONTACT HITTERS IS GOING TO GET YOU A 79-83 RECORD JUST LIKE LAST YEAR. WE WILL BE IN 4TH PLACE AT THE ALL-STAR BREAK. JS, GET OFF YOUR A*, CALL UP-SEND DOWN, TRADE, FIRE BOBBY, GET RID OF ANDREW(CAUSE YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE KNOWS, THE BRAVES WONT BE ABLE TO AFFORD HIM NEXT YEAR ANYWAY), BUT FOR ALL SAKE…..DO SOMETHING TO SHAKE THIS TEAM UP!!!!!!!!!FINALLY…..I WILL SAY IT AGAIN…..AFTER THE FIRST HIT, THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN GUARDING THE LINES. I DO REALIZE THOUGH, THAT ITS JUST A GAME AND NONE OF THIS WE CAN CONTROL, BUT WHEN THIS TEAM IS LOOSING THE WAY THEY ARE ITS PATHETIC. THEY PLAY LIKE THE BAD NEWS BRAVES!!!!!!!
By bravado
June 15, 2007 9:08 AM | Link to this
If playing Salty at first is a plan to shop him then fine, but the real question is when will Chipper be moved to first. We need his bat in the lineup when he is healthy, and despite the play in the 9th last night Escobar is showing he deserves some playing time. Chipper is not the 3rd baseman of our future, but as long as he is hitting he needs to be in the lineup somewhere. First base is his future if he stays in the NL… otherwise trade him to the AL where he can DH and clear a way for Escobar and Salty. I really like Chipper, but I remember when Dale Murphy reached this stage of his career the team did what it thought it needed to do to clear the way for the potential we had in the minors. I also like Salty and believe he can be a star, but Escobar too needs a chance.
By Efrim
June 15, 2007 9:12 AM | Link to this
This sucks.
Wickman has been pretty damn good all year. BUT that is why the strikeout is so very important in the late innings. Thats why relievers tend to have higher strike out rates, because they eliminate the element of an error happening by a position player.
Third Place……
And next up are the three best offenses in baseball. The Braves will be 38-38 at the end of this interleague schedule. THAT IS AWFUL!!!!!
By Headlines
June 15, 2007 9:14 AM | Link to this
You need to just trade this team for a small sack of donkey turd and go plant a garden. Better take the deal now because this time next week the Braves will be so far back that they won’t be able to find their way home. Come to think of it …. That would not be so bad, would it????
By Coach
June 15, 2007 9:16 AM | Link to this
Braveheart , can you count ? KJ has 143 more at bats than Willie. Give Harris the same number of at bats in the lead off hole and I guarantee you he has around 45-50 runs scored 18-20 stolen bases 36-40 walks , a higher OBP and a higher batting AVG. Not to mention the fact that I would have KJ batting second , Renteria 3rd and Chipper in the four hole. Kelly’s numbers would actually improve with Willie’s ability to steal bases and get into scoring position all by himself. But , hey you probably never heard of Rafael Furcal and the havoc he created in the six seasons he was the Braves lead off hitter. I respect the opinion of others. However , Willie , KJ , Renteria , Chipper are my top four. Thats my lineup and I’m sticking to it.
By greg
June 15, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this
Hey. I like Wickman as much as the next guy. He’s fat and he’s old. So am I. But his stuff is not impressive to Major League hitters. He saves games with guile. Maybe he should be the three run or more closer and Soriano the tight game closer. Last night, we needed Ks and Wickman can’t do that. A closer should mow people down in a close game. Of course, my solution leaves us with no setup man in a close game. Maybe Yates could do it. I don’t trust Wickman with a two run or less lead. He gets hit too much. Why do we think Cleveland was so willing to part with him? He’s very hittable. We need Ks in the ninth inning. That means we need Soriano. The man can bring it. I’m amazed that his fastball only clocks at 94. It looks much faster, and it has great movement.
By Shaun
June 15, 2007 9:25 AM | Link to this
h_charles,
I guess if you use Willie as a pinch-hitter for Diaz, then you don’t have him later if you need to pinch-hit for a truly weak hitter, like a pitcher.
Diaz is plenty good enough (as we say in the south) to not use up a player for.
By flange1
June 15, 2007 9:25 AM | Link to this
Morning All,
Been traveling the last couple of days with no internet access, it has taken me awhile to catch up!
First, Congratualtions to DOB! It is amazing that Scott Borass and Jayson Stark have both requested time on your blog. Most of us in the ATL think of this as our blog but don’t realize how many others view it. It is quite amazing to me to have 2 of the most powerful men in baseball speaking to us directly on Dave’s blog. VERY COOL!
Second, on Andruw, my opinion is quite close to Jayson’s view. I believe that AJ has been the best centerfielder that I have had the privelidge of watching. I do think he is slowing down a bit, probably a bit earlier than we thought he would, but to me, even a 1 step slower is the best CF in baseball. Now does that transfer into an 8 year 20 million per year deal? Maybe, but if that is the price, I suggest the Braves pass. Especially with their self enforced salary cap.
Third, on the Twins series, I was impressed with Hudson last night. Braves fan HAVE to expect some errors when they have 3 rookies playing the infield. I know KJ is not a rookie but this is his first year at second. We have to have some patience with bad throws and botched plays even if it means we lose the game.
The Braves need to keep the chin up and do some damage in their next couple of series. It would be lovely to find a number 3 starter but I don’t see out there to be had that would not brak the bank.
again Congratualtions DOB!
By Efrim
June 15, 2007 9:26 AM | Link to this
Coach
Batting Willie Harris in Cleanup is a dumb idea. KJ’s OBP is like 380, and has been all year. Honestly man. Discuss something else, like the Braves chances the nect 9 games. This team is going to be 7 games back in the loss column in like a week.
By Shaun
June 15, 2007 9:37 AM | Link to this
Coach,
Harris has a career OBP of .322 and career AVG of .254. His career high OBP is .343. Hopefully he’ll continue on his current pace and I would continue to play him as long as he’s still hitting, but I don’t know if I trust giving him the leadoff role regularly.
By BamaBrave
June 15, 2007 9:39 AM | Link to this
To quote Bill Murray in Stripes…
“And then depression set in…”
By Shaun
June 15, 2007 9:42 AM | Link to this
Second, on Andruw, my opinion is quite close to Jayson’s view. I believe that AJ has been the best centerfielder that I have had the privelidge of watching. I do think he is slowing down a bit, probably a bit earlier than we thought he would, but to me, even a 1 step slower is the best CF in baseball.
I think most people have this view of Andruw. If most people have this view, does that mean he’s overrated or properly rated?
By Michael N.
June 15, 2007 9:43 AM | Link to this
I was going to mow the lawn today,instead, I’m gonna drop Andrew Jones from my Fantasy Team and then I’m gonna’ listen to The Replacements on my IPOD.
By Efrim
June 15, 2007 9:44 AM | Link to this
Shaun
What do you think our record will be in the next 9 games?
By Ted
June 15, 2007 9:45 AM | Link to this
My issue with Stark’s “rebuttal” is that it doesn’t address the initial points made against his “book”.
Jayson argues that AJ is the most overrated OF ALL TIME. Not currently. Not in the last 5-10 years. BUT OF ALL TIME.
To make that argument, he simply looks at AJ’s numbers and talks to some current scouts. Sorry, but to make the argument that he’s the most overrated OF ALL TIME, he better have zone ratings, putouts, scouting reports, etc. for EVERY CF and OF in baseball history. Otherwise, he can’t make any dumbass remarks about AJ being the most overrated OF ALL TIME. Period.
But, since Jayson didn’t do that research, his opinion is simply a joke and his “book” is simply to make money, not actually provide any support for the positions contained therein. Basically, it is a joke, just as he is.
Now, if he wants to argue that AJ has lost a step and isn’t as good as he used to be, fine. I’d agree. But if he’s going to posture that AJ is the most overrated OF ALL TIME, he better bring something more than the crap that is in his “book”.
By Coach
June 15, 2007 9:45 AM | Link to this
Efrim , I think you meant lead off. Dumb ? Kelly’s OBP is actually .384 , Willie’s is .460 , KJ’s batting AVG .283 , Willie’s is .396 but it’s still not a fair assessment due to the disparity of in at bats. The fact is , they both would lead off in my scheme. One facing right handers and the other against lefties.
By robdawg06
June 15, 2007 9:47 AM | Link to this
The Braves somehow snatched defeat from certain victory. I’d ask to be traded if I were Tim Hudson. If I had pitched 2 almost no-hitters only to lose both by shoddy bullpen work I would be beyond angry.
Scott Boras is one of the biggest problems in MLB. But if it wasn’t him it would be someone else. Until MLB decides to have an equal salary cap for all teams like the NFL does there will always be players leaving for unthinkable salaries to the rich teams. There needs to be an even playing field. But as long as Boras can get a star player another million bucks he doesn’t care if he’s taking away a team’s best player to add to an already built all-star team (Yankees,Red Sox,or Mets for examples). If the owners would get together and put a stop to the outrageous salaries then MLB could be competitive among ALL teams again.
By Ron Roberts
June 15, 2007 9:49 AM | Link to this
Chipper Jones is NOT moving to 1B. Stop it.
Arkansas Hillbilly suggested yesterday we have disclaimer on the blog here (maybe to the right of the box we type in?) that states the obvious known truths like that.
By Bailey
June 15, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this
I think Wickman could set-up…but if he gets in trouble, then get Soriano out there.
By Braveheart
June 15, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this
Coach, Willie Harris is at best a seventh or eighth hitter if he played everyday. A small doses guy who has played great so far in 100 at bats. Dude, I can count but I can also analyze the statistics I count. Big difference that you don’t seem to understand. If you overexposed Willie Harris to playing everyday, he would revert back to being Willie Harris and you would have yourself a HUGE, HUGE, HUGE hole in the cleanup spot. Willie is a decent little guy who should get about 250-350 at bats a season and nothing more. He is not an everyday player and definitely not an everyday leadoff hitter. that is just childish musings and wishes. perhaps, a super bench player if he keeps it up. if you think Willie Harris would have the same production as KJ in the same number of at bats, you are simply delusional. So, yes, Coach, I can count. Can you think, observe, see, break down prior stats?
By chipdip
June 15, 2007 9:52 AM | Link to this
we need adam laroche back……stupid friggin’trade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!PLAYOFFS!!!?????WHATA’ MEAN THE PLAYOFFS???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THE PLAYOFFS!!!!!!!!???????????????????????
By TheCutMan
June 15, 2007 9:53 AM | Link to this
Today finds me wondering about the Braves “crossover” point of the season, or that point where the front office and ownership admits that 2007 is a lost cause and start building for 2008.
I know. It’s not even close to consider with the team only 2.5 games out of the lead. The question, though, remains. Is this team worthy of giving up a piece of their future for a starting arm to make a run in 2007?
OR, would it be better to hold onto the Salty’s and Escobar’s to build on and strengthen the fight for next year? At some time in the next 4-5 weeks, that “crossover point” evaluation and decision will need to be made.
Today, following yet another disappointing loss, I’m leaning toward keeping the youth and talent as opposed to trading for a proven starter. Tomorrow or next week might find me changing my mind but come the trading deadline, it becomes an ‘either/OR’ scenario.
By Renegator
June 15, 2007 9:55 AM | Link to this
June 2007 looks just like June 2006. This team is just finding ways to lose games. Look for a sub-500 finish to the season again this year.
What is so frustrating is that we have Woodward and Orr on the bench when we really need Pena there. He could be the backup catcher and allow Thorman to come in as defensive replacement. That said, there is no guarantee that he makes that play last night that Salty botched.
Hopefully JS doesn’t trade away our future for a player to try and win this year. This team has too many holes…
By Shaun
June 15, 2007 9:55 AM | Link to this
Efrim,
Next 9, I’m not sure. I’d have to look at the pitching matchups.
Off the top of my head, I think the Braves can win 3 maybe 4.
By NASCARfan
June 15, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this
Here’s the rub on Wickman: he’s a freaking junkball pitcher! Yeah, elite closers like Papplebon or Hoffman are going to blow saves, too, I get that. But wouldn’t there be a different feeling if Soriano blew a save compared to Wickman blowing one? At least with Soriano, we can say that, “Yeah, he blew it tonight, but man his stuff’s nasty, he’ll get ‘em next time.” Soriano is the better reliever, pure and simple. He has closer’s stuff. Wickman has the stuff of set-up men or middle relievers. Wickman DOES NOT have closers stuff. Do any of y’all remember John Smoltz’s 200th win? Wickman almost blew that game, too, after Smoltz pitched his behind off. He doesn’t belong on that hill in the 9th inning in a save situation. It’s pure and simple. Andruw Jones doesn’t belong in the middle of the line up, because he has no plate discipline and his BA, OBP, OPS, and BA with RISP sucks. So, why on God’s green earth is Wickman our closer? Why on God’s green earth is Andruw Jones still floating around the middle of the lineup instead of hitting 8th, where he belongs? Remind me, who’s the idiot managing this team? Oh yeah. Y’all are right. Last night wasn’t Wickman’s fault. And every time that undisciplined headcase strikes out on pitches 2 feet off the plate with runners on, or hits into DPs to end the inning, it isn’t his fault either. It’s the fault of the idiot managing this team. Last night, I took a pretty practical look at Andruw Jones, and declared him overrated because he’s nothing but half a ballplayer. Well, isn’t it time people in this town with it’s softball-tossing media take a practical look at the guy with all those playoff appearances but only one ring? The guy who refuses to change the way he manages the game even when change is sorely needed, nay, when change is DEMANDED of him? The guy who never makes the right decisions when it comes to his pitching, both starting and bullpen. He either leaves them in too long, or takes them out too soon, but he always, ALWAYS, makes the wrong decision. As much as the idea of Andruw Jones as a HOFer is a complete an utter falicy for someone who is half a ballplayer, especially when far more deserving candidates like The Hawk can’t get in, people, we need to address the complete and utter falicy that Bobby Cox is anything more than what he really is: the luckiest SOB in baseball history who’s lived off of John Schuerholtz for far too long, who’s nothing but a push-button manager who is completely outmanaged by his peers when it matters most. And we’re talking the greatest managers either. We’re talking Bruce Bochy and Jim Fregosi here.
So, instead of ending it with my usual refrain about Andruw, let me change a few things.
Bobby Cox:
OVER-RATED CLAP CLAP CLAPCLAPCLAP
OVER-RATED CLAP CLAP CLAPCLAPCLAP
OVER-RATED CLAP CLAP CLAPCLAPCLAP
By Arkansas Hillbilly
June 15, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this
Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Pat Corrales a master at defensive positioning in years past. Who’s in charge of it now? Chino? Hubbard?
Secondly, I honestly don’t think Escobar’s throw to the plate would have gotten the runner, even if McCann would have caught it. That was just a case of a well-placed dribbler.
Finally, Salty makes that play on grass. Cuddyer’s triple is likely a double on grass. I’m placing a portion of the blame on bad luck and the “leftover-from-1991” Mystique of that nightmare of a stadium they call the Metrodome. Damn that place.
By Coach
June 15, 2007 10:20 AM | Link to this
Braveheart , YOU have been sucked into the same D-E-L-U-S-I-O-N-A-L belief of many a Braves fan that KJ is a lead off hitter. I’ll give you an example : Mets Jose Reyes 32 stolen bases 118 total bases. Phillies Jimmy Rollins 12 stolen bases 145 total bases. Braves Kelly Johnson 5 stolen bases 118 total bases. KJ belongs in the two hole. But , he is the best we have and he is doing a good job but he isn’t in the same class as Reyes and Rollins when it come to creating havoc on the base paths. I agree Willie Harris is not an everyday player , check his splits , he doesn’t hit lefties the way he hits right handers. Which is why the Braves need two different lineups. KJ has 5 stolen bases and 4 caught stealing , he does not present a base stealing threat standing on 1B. He is part of Bobby’s station to station offense. The Braves simply DO NOT have a traditional speed guy at the top of the order and I’m the one who isn’t drinking the kool aid.
By Jersey Gil
June 15, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this
Arkansas Hillbilly I totaly agree with you…i tape the game last night, and Escobar throw have to be high or he hit the runner if was more lower….mac have no chance to it if he was caught it. Home field advantage that all was…moved on we still 2 1/2 behind the Mets…It will be very interesting in Aug… 8 out of 10 Wickman was close that one…last night was the reminder 2.
By Shaun
June 15, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this
NASCARfan,
Problem with Soriano closing is the Braves only get to use him in the 9th inning with a lead of 3-runs or less.
I like Soriano being able to come in whenever the game is truly on the line, not to use him to protect a lead for one inning that you may never get if you don’t have someone that can get outs in high-pressure situations a little earlier.
As Bill James once said: “Using your relief ace to protect a three-run lead is like a business using a top executive to negotiate fire insurance.”
By Efrim
June 15, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this
Coach
Speed isn’t KJ’s game, but the guy has a high OBP and he is our only option. Willie Harris is not an option. Where would you bat KJ then?
By Braveheart
June 15, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this
LEADOFF AIN’T BROKE, SO WHY FIX IT?
there are plenty of broken pieces in this lineup, so why would we concern ourselves with leadoff, which is really the least of our concerns?
By Lee
June 15, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this
I am not sure if the Braves could buy a win at present time. With the opposing pitching we are about to face in the Indians, Red Sox and Tgers series it will be hard pressed for the Braves to mount much of an offense period. Not to mention the offense these team have. Then we face the Nats who practically own us. All Braves fans can do is hope for this team to somehow turn it around.
I agree with most and do not see any reason to jeopardized the future by trading our younger players away.
By Coach (NOT DRINKING THE KOOL AID)
June 15, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this
Kelly Johnson is not a traditional lead off speed guy in the mold of the National league style. He is the best we have and out best isn’t as good as what the Mets , Phillies , Marlins , Dodgers etc. etc. etc. all have at the top of their batting order. He is what our budget can afford , which is why Furcal is a Dodger and not still a Brave.
By Thrillhouse44
June 15, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this
Man, I thought we left the leadoff debate behind last year. Guess not. Of course KJ isn’t in the same class as Reyes and Rollins. Those are two of the best. But did you notice that KJ has the same number of total bases as Reyes?
By Shaun
June 15, 2007 10:34 AM | Link to this
Coach,
Speed helps but it’s not a necessity. Getting on is much more important.
Who cares how many bases a player can steal or how fast he is, if he can’t get on base?
By Tad
June 15, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this
DOB:
The part of Stark’s argument that gets me is “those 100 balls a year that Andruw used to catch that he wasn’t catching anymore”
Making this ridiculous claim based solely on putout numbers is crazy. Wouldn’t you want to look at the total chances decreasing as well? Or the supporting cast of outfielders? I am still waiting for Jayson to show us some of these 100 missed catches. I am sure that he can’t and won’t.
Using Stark’s misguided logic, you could make the claim that Francoeur is letting runners score on him that he “used to” prevent. In 589 innings in 2005, Francoeur had 13 assists. In 593 innings in 2007, Francoeur has 7 assists, nearly half the total. Stark doesn’t look at the number of opportunities you have, or in this case, runners aren’t running on Frenchy because they have learned better.
How about Brian Asselstine hitting 30 homers in 600 at-bats, then hitting 15 in 300 at bats; there is clearly a decline there.
Here is my Stark “Truth” rebuttal:
Jayson Stark uses flawed logic and skews statistics to try to support his unfounded opinions comparing selected players to a mythical baseball popularity rating system influenced by his employer’s industry. It is very apparent in his arguments that he does not have a very deep knowledge of the history of baseball and doesn’t attend or watch many games outside of the Philadelphia / New York / Boston area. Ironically, Stark is a voter for the Baseball Hall of Fame and the word “truth” is in the title of a book about his perceptions.
A more relevant topic for a reputable sports journalist would be a book that actually focused on the careers of the best baseball players at each defensive position in the history of baseball and their statistics, rather than overrating and underrating players compared to their position in a fictitional popularity contest. However, it is apparent that Stark’s view of “baseball history” is vastly skewed towards the present day and his view of player performance does not involve entire careers and does not attempt to explore other factors that may skew a particular statistic.
Stark has the opinion that Andruw Jones is the “most overrated centerfielder of all time,” a position Stark defends by using “zone rating,” which baseball experts know was invented by John Dewan, the former CEO of STATS, Incorporated, then altered to eliminate extra credit for double plays, then changed again to penalize players for catching balls caught outside a subjective “zone” (OOZ) area of the field. These formula changes, along with the fact that the zone calculations are performed by many different people with different opinions of proper fielding zones while negating defensive positioning changes and irregularly shaped ballparks, would cause differences in the calculation of this statistic over time. This is the reason it is considered by many as an inadequate formula for true comparisons of defensive ability, particularly for players who make plays in the OOZ area, like Andruw Jones on a daily basis.
Based on his lack of understanding on the zone rating statistic, Stark claims that Andruw Jones lets 100 balls over a 162-game season drop that he was supposed to catch. I challenge him to show me 10% of that in a season, although I would be shocked if he was able to count them on one hand. Then we could look at the countless highlight-reel catches that Andruw Jones makes, all of which are “out of zone” and not included in the second revision of the zone rating formula.
A more consistent, fact-based defensive statistic is fielding percentage, but it contains data that contradicts the opinion of the author. Andruw Jones has a higher career fielding percentage (.991) than the other legendary, perhaps accurately rated, although maybe underrated centerfielders included in this chapter: Willie Mays .981, Mickey Mantle .982, Joe Dimaggio .978, Ty Cobb .961, Kirby Puckett .989, & Ken Griffey, Jr. .986.
Stark also misquotes that Joe DiMaggio has the highest slugging percentage of any retired right-handed hitter at .5788. This is simply incorrect as Jimmie Foxx (.6093), Hank Greenberg (.6050), and Mark McGwire (.5882) are all retired right-handed hitters with a higher career average.
The book does not accurately represent the history of baseball and is merely the unjustified opinions of the author, who is a baseball journalist and voter for the National Baseball Hall of Fame, but is more suited to be selling peanuts and hot dogs at baseball games than writing about them.
—-Tad out—-
By New Coach
June 15, 2007 10:36 AM | Link to this
OMG! I was ready to kill my tv last night and realized it was Bobby’s fault. Why did he leave Wickman in, that guy is a complete bozo! Send his chunky butt back to the minors and let’s get some real pitchers. Time to go to S.America or the Caribbean to get some real talent.
By WOW
June 15, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this
It’s nice to see so many loyal fans on this blog. Everyone saying we should pack it in this year and at the end of the interleague schedule we will be 7 games out need to find another favorite team. This is pathetic we are in 3rd place and only .5 games behind the Phillies and 2.5 behind the Mets and some of you act like we are 15 games out with a month to play. Relax, JS will make some moves and we will be right back into it. They are struggling right now, but they will turn it around. Maybe I’m crazy, but I still have faith in my favorite team. I suggest some of you start showing a little loyalty around here, it’s getting embarrassing reading some of this crap and then having Mets and Phillies fans come on here and see that even we as the fans are giving up on our team.
By The Murf
June 15, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this
I’ll give Thorman credit, he’s a damn fine first baseman. Just no bat.
By Renegator
June 15, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this
This team doesn’t have the “mental toughness” to win this year and that comes from the coaches. Bobby is not doing a good job this year and neither are McDowell, TP, and whoever does defensive positioning.
By Shaun
June 15, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this
I’m sure plenty of teams that can afford a lot would love to have a hitter like Kelly Johnson at the top of their order.
By Ron
June 15, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this
Ok, guys, what is up with this team? are they demoralized? hurt? just not good enough now? what the heck? reminds me of last year. we’re one series away from .500! PATHETIC! I had high hopes this year…
By Coach (NOT DRINKING THE KOOL AID)
June 15, 2007 10:44 AM | Link to this
Keep the platoon in left. right handed line up : Harris LF , Johnson 2B , Renteria SS , Chipper 3B , Francoeur RF , Salty 1B , McCann C , Andruw CF. Lefties : Johnson 2B , Diaz LF , Renteria SS , Chipper 3B , Francoeur RF , McCann C , Salty 1B , Andruw CF. Thats what I would do.
By Salty
June 15, 2007 10:45 AM | Link to this
RobDawg06 You wrote: Scott Boras is one of the biggest problems in MLB. Probably so, the other biggest problem being the folks across the table from him! Heck of a tango!
By N8
June 15, 2007 10:47 AM | Link to this
You know something?
The play last night that’s not getting talked about enough, is Mauer’s AB. Sure it was the first out of the innig, but it could’ve (and would have) been the first TWO outs of the inning had Gardenhire NOT put on the hit and run with Castillo on first base.
SURE FIRE double play, with Mauer’s speed (or lack there of), if that hit and run is not put on.
How many hit and run’s do we attempt?
Oh, THAT’S RIGHT you have to have guys in the middle of your order that actually know how to handle the bat, and make contact to try that once in a while.
By Kieran from Long Island
June 15, 2007 10:47 AM | Link to this
Let me say this in nice and bold letters, even though it is tough to swallow after a loss like that…
THE BRAVES WILL WIN MORE GAMES WITH WICKMAN AS THE CLOSER AND SORIANO AS THE SETUP MAN
Let me explain…
With Wickman cemented in to that 9th inning slot, where he is usually effective, it gives Bobby the flexablity of using their BEST bullpen pitch, Soriano, wherever he wants to. He can plug soriano into a tight jam in the 7th or against the meat of the order. Also, if wickman is struggling and soriano hasnt been used, he can bring him in to clean up the mess. You want to have that flexabilty with your best pitcher, because the game is not always won in the 9th inning, sometimes the tough spots are before that. Last night was unfortunate, but it is for the greater good.
I was going to bring this up before last night, and now it seems like I’m just jumping on the guy, but has anyone notice how poor Escobar is defensivly? I can call to mind 2 plays at 3rd and 2 at Shortstop that flat out should have been made. That sort of thing is certainly going to hurt his trade value, because i think he’s the guy who’s gonna get moved, not Salty.
By Shaun
June 15, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this
Here’s something Rob Neyer wrote last month discussing Bo Jackson and his speed:
“There’s not a player in the majors who’s fast enough to beat out a routine ground ball to an infielder.”
Bo got on base in only about 31 percent of his plate appearances. Apparently, speed didn’t seem to help him get on.
By chipdip
June 15, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this
i’m shooting for 4th place by this time next week!
By Paladin
June 15, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this
Can’t/couldn’t wait for you helpless homers to start telling us that there are __games left and how the Braves will get this “turned around”. In the first place, you can’t turn around a train wreck, and in the second place, by the time they get turned around we will be behind everyone but Agnes Scott.
By jason
June 15, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this
Why not move Escobar to 2B and Johnson to LF with Salty at first. That way we can trade Thorman, Harris or Diaz, and a SS prospect (either Andrus or Lillibridge) for a starter.
By Coach (NOT DRINKING THE KOOL AID)
June 15, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this
Wickman didn’t blow the save , his defense did. Salty is a catcher playing out of position at 1B. Escobar is a short stop playing out of position at 3B. It’s a bad situation but like KJ leading off , it’s the best we have.
By Renegator
June 15, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this
Lets hope we don’t get swept by the Indians, Red Sox, and Tigers. That would be icing on the June Swoon 2007 cake.
By BossLady
June 15, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this
Flange1, of course DOB’s blog is “big time” in the arena that’s why I’m here.
By Alex
June 15, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this
WOW yes it is true, we are only a few games out of first place NOW…at this rate a month from now, we will be 10 or more games back. That is why there is panic/frustartion here on the blog and among the Braves fanbase. Pretty easy of you to say “things will get fixed”, what if they don’t? Do you remember last year in June…6-23!
It will take a big turn around to prevent this current Braves team, the way it’s playing right now, from not going into a similar tailspin.
Mark my words, I am a loyal Braves fan and I support them all the time, but it is time to get realistic!
They are not going anywhere but backwards and maybe 4th place in the Division by the end of June. Scary thought, isn’t it!
The only consolation right now, is that the over rated NY MUTS are playing just as bad as the Braves.
By journalist jimmy smith
June 15, 2007 11:14 AM | Link to this
By ssiscribe
June 15, 2007 8:29 AM | Link to this
Man, I’m a mess this morning. Should read “last day at the OLD job.”
I hate bad losses!
—30—
scribe should be thankful for good toe health. now, baseball … well, how long will it be before chipper is moved to first base? escobar can play third for a time until becoming ss. chipper can play first for a time before requiring a walker. salty can learn to patrol the outfield. can this work? if a team has too few players at certain positions and too many players at other positions aren’t there usually some remedies? does this mean that aybar was critical to this season? oh, the humanity! this journalist hopes not. and andruw … cannot continue to leave runners on base and not make good efforts down the line. now, according to the ajc there may have been something fishy about the acquisition of the new whale sharks. will reporter mark davis please weigh in with some in-depth investigative reporting? and when will dob invite mark davis to blog with us?
By TJ
June 15, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this
Does anyone think that McCann should have at least caught Escobar’s throw to the plate to prevent the winning run from advancing to third and keeping the double play in order? It was a high throw, but appeared catchable.
By Voice of Reason
June 15, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this
Wow… It’s June 15, with 90something games remaining, the trade deadline more than a month away, the All-Star break a month away, and I look on the blog to find more doom and despair than one might find following Badluck Shleprock. (That’s an old Flintstones’ reference for you yung’uns out there. Just Google it…) Anyway, while that was pretty hard to swallow, did it really precipitate a discussion on political leanings, organized religion and the afterlife? Speaking as a man who has followed the Braves since my Dad took me to see a team that included Marty Perez, Davey Johnson, and Rico Carty, nobody - and I mean nobody - loves this team more than I do. It is painful to watch a 9th inning meltdown like last night’s. That being said, take a dose of perspective and chill a little. Or, as one of our blog denizens said, “clam” down. (I loved that one…) Anyway, the sun still rose, the earth still spins, the bills still arive. They’ll toe the rubber again tonight and I’ll be right back in my chair again to watch every pitch. I’ll still be wearing my well-worn Braves’ game cap. I’ll still fist-pump the timely hits and I’ll still yell at the bonehead mistakes. And, win or lose, tomorrow the sun will still rise, the earth will still spin, and the bills will still arrive. It’s all good, fellas (and C-Lady,) just sometimes better than others…
By God
June 15, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this
David O’Brien, this clown has been a report for years and he is still clueless. The Braves were very lucky in the early part of the season. They should start the year 2-9, but as the season continues, they finally show their true color and it is July, lose Braves
By DD
June 15, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this
Tough loss, but McCann should have made that catch. If a ball hits a wide receiver in the hands, or a baseball player in the glove, it should be caught.
By Renegator
June 15, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this
I think last night’s loss was the most frustrating loss of the season thus far.
By ssiscribe
June 15, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this
The esteemed and honorable JJS: Of course, the noted Scribe is thankful for good toe health. As you and I know, toes (as well as two-run leads) are not to be trifled with, else one runs the risk of angrying up the powers that be.
Now, work: Time to finish up here and go home. Also time for my young crime scribe to get to work on the doings of the day, all while scanning the good blog where baseball, toes, pie, BBQ, good music and the Midwest-airport-bouncing DOB is always on.
Peace.
—30—
By BossLady
June 15, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this
Well, I made a decision. If I am going to continue to back the Braves and support them I may as well invite over my broke cousin serve steak and beer. When it get this bad a whole new perspective in the mind set says this is family and these are my Braves. It is what it is.
By Greg in TN
June 15, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this
Morning denizens…
Still smelling the stench from last night. Bad loss, just like the loss in Florida, and it’s a shame that Hudson had to take the loss on both nights.
Double Deuce, your post in the wee hours of the morning resonated with me and I think you’re spot on. We’re missing a strong clubhouse leader among the players. It’s really not Chipper or Smoltz’s forte and I believe that if we had a player like Terry Pendleton was when he came over in ‘91. Unfortunately, leadership like that doesn’t grow on trees and it’s not a knock against Chipper and Smoltz and the other vets that are long in the tooth in the organization, that’s the way it is. I am hopeful that someone in the new crop of Braves (B-Mac, Francoeur and others) will provide that strong influence.
As I said last week, we just aren’t a good ball team right now. It seems as if we’re pulling in different directions. Cleveland gives us a chance to work toward playing better baseball, but it won’t be easy.
By ssiscribe
June 15, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this
Hey folks, check out today’s T-shirt:
“You down with DOB?”
Man, now I’m going to have Naughty By Nature playing in my head the rest of the day. Sweet! I love that song because I had just graduated high school, and it was on the radio a lot during the 1991 playoffs and World Series.
Army with harmony!
—30—
By journalist jimmy smith
June 15, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this
warning to all the new bloggers: dob may be cranky on a travel day, more so than usual. anne cox chambers has been asked to allow dob non-stop travel in the future. this request was made with a nice note from dob and a canned ham delivered to anne cox chambers’ mansion. mention was made of the best of cox award and of the wurlitzer. it is hoped that this will curry favor for dob with ms. cox chambers. is anne cox chamebers dating anyone? oh, the humanity! we cannot have that, can we? and now, journalist must go deal in free enterprise but before going jimmy smith leaves all bloggers with this thought. did not this season begin with several toe issues? can you see what happens when toes are trifled with? and what lineup will bobby pick tonight? and where will bobby be pickin’?
By BamaBrave
June 15, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this
Last night’s loss was a twisted sequel to the game Wickman “blew” against Florida in late April after tremendous pitching by Hudson. We now know Wickman wasn’t 100% in that game, and I’m not blaming him solely for the loss last night… But that defeat in April took some of our swagger. Confidence dropped, and it started the run as a .500 team. So what will the loss last night do? If we go into a tailspin, we can mark last night as the start of it. Or…the boys can get p#ssed, suck it up, and restart the season. I don’t know who gives the inspirational speeches in that clubhouse, but I’m just hoping somebody does it today.
BTW, evidence is growing that Hudson is an average pitcher in the hotter weather, and above average in cooler, or controlled climate conditions. How does his happen to an Auburn boy?
By Lew
June 15, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this
I’m not going to call anyone’s intelligence into question, but I wish Willie Harris would play every day just so you can see why he’s platooned. The guy has a career (including this season) BA of .201 against LHP (as opposed to .264 vs RHP). His career OBP against LHP is .256 (vs. .334 against RHP). His career SLG is .250 against LHP (.330 against RHP). This is with more than 900 AB. There is a bona fide reason he is platooned. He is considerably less effective hitter against Lefties, whereas Matt Diaz tears up LHP. Give the rant a rest.
By RJS
June 15, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this
Blah, Blah, Blah. Jayson Stark proves once that baseball writers are some of the biggest geeks on the planet(sorry DOB but its true- just look at the guys on ESPN). All these number and stat quoting geeks are same guys who missed the boat on the biggest sports story in 50 years- the steroid era- bacause they didn’t want to hurt the feelings of all the players they have man crushes on. Stark’s book sounds like a huge waste of time and trees. Here’s an idea, instead reading his idiotic book- which he obviously isn’t even sure why he wrote it himself- get outside and play.
By The Truth Hurts
June 15, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this
If my math is right, Wicky has given up 12ER in 48inn. since coming to the Braves. That works out to a 2.25ERA. A 3 to 1 strikeout to walk ratio. 48 inn. and 46 hits allowed. 2HRs allowed.
And now people want to ship him out or switch him up with Soriano. Wrong.
Let’s stop playing fantasy baseball.
Having said that, while I do agree about the seeming vacuum of leadership on this team, it still comes down to pitching. Pretty simple, really.
Double Deuce, were you in Prague in 2005-06? I seem to remember that moniker from watching the Braves-Astros playoff series with you in the cave at the sports bar right off Vaclavske namesti.
On a side note, I had a baseball dream last night in which Kyle Davies was pitching and the Braves were losing 27-0. I’m not making this up. See what this team’s pitching problems are doing to me? This shouldn’t happen. I should be dreaming of sugarplums and flying monkeys and heartless scarecrows. Or parties at the Playboy Mansion. Instead, my subconscious is relegated to Kyle Davies and enormous deficits. I can’t take it.
It’s 5 o’clock somewhere.
By Tomahawkin' Again
June 15, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this
As a long time Braves fan (we’re talking going to spring training games at Tinker Field here in Orlando to see the baby Braves of Murphy, Horner, Hubbard in the late ‘70’s), what I’m feeling and what I think I am reading of so many of the blogs here on DOB’s site is wanting that one last run, that last legitimate shot for the Chipper’s, the Smoltz’s to get back to a World Series. Count me in on the side of making deals to shore up our holes (another starter, 1B, bench) and not hoping/waiting to see that the Salty’s and Escobar’s of the world lead us in 2008 and beyond. The NL is so watered down again this year, why can’t we be the Cardinals of 2007? In our current state, we’re an 75-80 win team and that stinks. Sorry, I am as frustrated as the rest of Braves Nation and last night took a lot out of me. We’re 11-20 since the morning of Mother’s Day. The June Swoon so many are concerned about happening again has been here for a month already. Dammitt, I want another hat/T-shirt that says Braves Champions on it!
By Braveheart
June 15, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this
Reyes has 32 Stolen Bases. KJ has 5 stolen bases. AND they have scored the same number of runs Coach. 45 RUNS. THE SAME NUMBER OF RUNS.
Jose Reyes - on base 118 times. KJ - on base 109 times. BUT YET they have scored the same number of runs. Yep, I guess speed and stolen bases are just so important in getting runs home.
Reyes - 118 total bases. KJ - 116 total bases. BUT YET they have somehow scored the same number of runs. Yep, speed and stolen bases are just so important. I am delusional.
Total Bases + Walks + HBPs for Reyes is 154 in 301 plate appearances. Total Bases + Walks + HBPS for KJ is 156 in 284 plate appearances.
Runs + RBIs for KJ is 80. Runs + RBIs for Reyes is 73. Runs + RBIs - HR for KJ is 72. Runs + RBIS - HR for Reyes is 71.
In the NL this year, the NL has scored 4634 runs. The Total Bases + Walks + HBPS for the NL has been 18,363. Divide the Total base by the runs scored, you get 3.96.
Take KJ’s 156 total base number and divide by that 3.96 number, multiply that number by 2, and you get that he should have a combined 79 runs + rbis this year. KJ has scored 29% of his TB+BB+HBP.
Take Reyes 154 total base number and divide by 3.96, multiply that number by 2, and you see that Reyes should have a combined 77 or 78 runs this year. But he is below that number this year. Yep, those stolen bases sure are making a HUGE difference in the leadoff spot.
Reyes has scored 29% of his TB + BB + HBP.
Not perfect baseball statistical analysis by any means. But it does prove the point that Reyes is not any more valuable as a leadoff hitter than KJ.
Jimmy Rollins Total Bases + Walks + HBPs is 166. Divide that by the 3.96 and multiply it by 2 and you get that he should have 84 runs + rbis. Rollins has done better than that and has 90. Rollins has scored 31% of his TB+HBP+BB
Furcal has 109 total bases + walks + HBPs. Furcal has 52 RUNS + RBIS this year. Do the forumula and Furcal should have 55. He has scored 26% of his TB+BB+HBP
Help, me Obi Wan, Shaun has finally brought me over to the dark side. Speed really does not have much to do with it. It really is simply about getting on bases and your power.
By Braveheart
June 15, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this
like KJ leading off , it’s the best we have.
oh poor us. KJ is the best we have at leadoff. the best we have is right up there with the best the NL has.
By journalist jimmy smith
June 15, 2007 12:18 PM | Link to this
congratulations to blogger kent kimes for an award winning tee shirt entry. journalist is concerned that baby seal is beginning to press. wish baby seal luck for tomorrow.
and there is some fine fish journalism today from mark davis. be sure to read today’s article as mark davis paints a portrait with words.
and are we to believe government must now be involved with our fish tanks? oh, the humanity! read cynthia tucker on sunday!!
and where is the old journalist? and will the old journalist take this tee shirt matter well?
and journalist asks dob’s forgiveness for suggesting a dob date with anne cox chambers. may be a little old for dob - but rich. both like canned ham. cheese is a bonus.
By greg
June 15, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this
How many blown saves did we experience when Soriano closed earlier this year. I believe the number is 0.
By Lew
June 15, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this
Tad-Your 10:36 post was one of the best rebuttals I’ve ever read. Way to go, Dude!! You should be nominated for the Wurlitzer For Rebuttal of Journalist’s Books Prize. It was to the point and well written and researched. It would be great if some of our more emotional Brethern on the Blog would read it and learn what research can do for your point of view. Calloo Callay, Beamish Boy.
By Voice of Reason
June 15, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this
Canned ham, cheese, toes. THAT sounds like a date to remember…
By Carolina Lady
June 15, 2007 12:39 PM | Link to this
This team reminds me of a team of mismatched horses. They need to be sorted out and put into the correct harnesses. Nobody is leading. Wither coaches??? We used to be derisive of some of Bobby’s “veteran presences” (Jordan??)on previous teams, but they truly need one now.
Andruw isn’t a leader; Chipper tries very hard to be. This team isn’t rudderless; it’s just that no one is at the helm.
An exchange above on the propriety of certain language in/on a public forum: it is a matter of courtesy, respect for self and other people, and plain old fashioned good manners vs self-centered I’ll-do/say-whatever-I-want, disrespect for self and others, ill-mannered crudity. With which of the two would a person like to be associated? Filthy language is not funny and has nothing to do with humor. My 2 cents.
By Carolina Lady
June 15, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this
VOR, it’s good to see you here again.
By eric the elder
June 15, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this
We’ve done a fine job of identifying all the obvious things that went wrong last night. However, mostly lost in all this ruminating is the fact that we scored two runs. Two crummy runs!
Except for an occasional festival of hitting, two runs has just about become the norm. And that won’t get it done, regardless of whether Salty bobbles the ball, Yunel’s throw went high, Wicky’s enemies found the 3rd base line, etc.
I’m loathe to mention it, but I think the league has already found a hole in Salty’s swing: down and in sliders.
I think the level of frustration on our part is inversely proportional to the number of games we are out of first. Had the Mets gone on a run, we would be 10 out by now, and the blog would be a listless and indifferent. By the time we next see the Nats, that might be the case, and the blog will resemble what it is during the off season.
By sonny boi
June 15, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this
The Braves had a closer a few years ago saving 40-50 games a year but moved him back to a starter?? WHY? Smoltzie can contribute to more wins by closing than starting once a week. Just think of all the blown saves the past couple years that Smoltzie would have saved. This team has no leaders. Chipper is not a leader….Like I said yesterday, this team is done. Time to rebuild with some good young pitching talent via Chipper and Andruw trades. Get rid of that coaching staff too!
By Bob, Journalist
June 15, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this
Congratulations to Kent Kimes … Son, if it wasn’t good David O’B wouldn’t have selected it … but what does You down with DOB? mean?
Got up juat now feeling kinda poorly … and probably am down with something, but I don’t think it’s that.
By elusivespleen
June 15, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this
I think part of the problem with criticism of the Stark book is that he calls AJ the most overrated in HISTORY while he actually is saying that he is the most overrated NOW. Two completely different things in my opinion. While I might agree with AJ being overrated NOW, there is no way that he might be the most overrated EVER. His assessment of AJ doesn’t seem to go along with the book’s title.
By NCBravesFan
June 15, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this
Lawdy but things have been painful in Braves Nation lately! It’ll be interesting to see how JS works to plug that starting pitching between now and the deadline. (That’ll solve a lot of this, in my opinion.)
The key offensive players to me are McCann and Francouer. If he can stay healthy, McCann is going to put up some numbers.
Francouer is still learning how to be patient at the plate and hit to all fields. In doing so, I think he has become a little more timid lately in some spots where he needs to step up.
If these guys can come through and Chipper can stay healthy, this team will score plenty of runs.
It’s hopefully just a bad stretch of ball offensively … and hopefully help is on the way on the mound!!
Just my two cents.
By Kieran from Long Island
June 15, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this
Why is Kelly Johnson even being mentioned today? He’s among the leaders in the league at the leadoff spot, and should be on the All Star team, although Larussa does hate the Braves so I wouldn’t count on it.
Defense is begining to be a noticible problem. I don’t care how much you defend him, Brain McAnn is not a good defensive catcher. He is a POOR defensive catcher. Passed Balls are reoccurant, Runners take bases at will on him (Except Felipe Lopez, who I believe he has thrown out 3 times) and not just second base, but 3rd base. The pitchers may liek throwing to him, but it’s a little scary to me to see a 23 year old catcher struggle like this. Jorge Posada had a lot of trouble with passed balls early in his career, so hopefully he can straighten that out, but the throwing in noticibly poor. Some say that part of teh game is overblown, but if you’ve ever seen teams run on Mike Piazza… Wow it’s depressing.
I’ll hold me Breath through til the Boston series and we’ll see who stays alive longer, me or the Bravos.
By Lee
June 15, 2007 1:00 PM | Link to this
TJ
Just to comment on your 11:20 post about McCann catching the ball. I personality thought he should had caught it. But there were so many should have and ifs in that game last night until I really don’t see how any one particular person could be blamed for the loss. The overall team probably feels that way also.
By eric the elder
June 15, 2007 1:03 PM | Link to this
Carolina Lady, great 12:39, especially the last paragraph.
Regarding leadership, I too have a fantasy of Chipper going back to the clubhouse, turning over the buffet table, and giving a George Patton speech that could be heard in Wisconsin. Alas, that’s not Chipper, nor is it anyone else.
It’s also questionable whether it would do any good. A ferocious halftime speech might send the players back to the field more determined to knock someone down, but baseball is not that kind of sport. Hitting a 90 mph fastball on the sweet spot rather than 1/8 inch off is not a function of someone yelling at you.
For years, Bobby has preached never getting too high and never getting too low. That seems to have been effective, at least when we had good players.
By Lee
June 15, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this
Excuse my spelling if that earlier post came out wrong. Tried to change the wording —-too late I thimk. Been a long week for the Braves and me. Saw were Shaun and Lew had birthdays. Happy bithday to you both. Maybe the Braves will pull out a wind tonight.
By Salty
June 15, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this
Braveheart Excellent, excellent, excellent (think I made my point?!?) Outstanding breakdown of Reyes vs. Johnson!
CL So nice of you to lecture with that “thundering velvet hand” (Fogelberg, circa late ‘70’s) of yours. Civility in the maelstrom!
And thanks for the video clip the other day…just way too cool!
By N8
June 15, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this
“If my math is right, Wicky has given up 12ER in 48inn. since coming to the Braves. That works out to a 2.25ERA. A 3 to 1 strikeout to walk ratio. 48 inn. and 46 hits allowed. 2HRs allowed.”
Oh yeah! Wel Andruw has a .265 BA, 353 HR and 1065 RBI since HE has “come to the Braves”. What good is THAT doing us this week?
As for Wickman’s 3 to 1 K/BB ratio?
Sure that’s great. But in his last 9 outings cover 9 IP that is pretty much WHAT IT IS (actually it’s 5 to 1).
I’m not basing my “request” for Soriano to be closer, based on last night’s performance by Wicky, which wasn’t all his fault. He’s been reliable, no doubt about it. But a guy that K’s 5 guys over his last IP, is a classic setup for a guy to get burned in the closer’s role when he get’s in a jam. That’s not to say that Soriano won’t (wouldn’t) blow a few either, but why do you think Smoltz and Gagne were so DOMINATING (not good, like Wickman, flat out DOMINATING) in the closer’s role. Yup. That’s right. Their ability to strike guys out.
I’ve been saying since he was on the DL, that with how absolutely DOMINATING Soriano looked in the role, in his absence, that if I was Bobby, I’d contemplate keeping Soriano as the closer.
This is NOT a knee jerk reaction to last night, for me. In fact, go check the posts from last night. My FIRST mention of not being so “comfortable” with Wickman as opposed to Soriano, came BEFORE Castillo got his base hit.
Why are people (managers and homers) so afraid of change? Especially when there is a better option.
Ask yourself this. If you were a Yankees fan in the 90’s, would you have NOT wanted Mariano Rivera to take over for Wetteland as the closer?
In 1996, Wetteland had 43 saves, a 2.83 ERA, 69 K’s, 21 BB’s (a 3 to 1 ratio), in 63.2 IP. VERY nice numbers for a closer.
That same year, mariano Rivera, in a setup role did the following:
2.09 ERA, 5 saves, 130 K’s, 34 BB’s (a 5 to 1 ratio), in 107 IP.
Soriano so far (granted in a MUCH smaller sample):
5 saves, 2.20 ERA, 26 K’s, 6 BB’s (about a 5 to 1 ration, actually, let’s call it a 4 to 1 as so you don’t acuse me of rounding up to prove my point), in 28.2 IP.
Other than the fact that Rivera pitched the 7th AND 8th innings just about every time he came in, I see RIDICULOUS similarities. Of course Torre didn’t make the switch mid-season, and more than likely Wickman is gone next year. So this comparison is probably closer than any of you think.
That being said, NOBODY in their right mind could blame Bobby for making the switch, just the same as nobody would’ve blamed Torre. Well, except for Wickman and Wetteland, that is.
L8R
By Coach (NOT DRINKING THE KOOL AID)
June 15, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this
Lew, thanks for backing me up !
By Inside Edition
June 15, 2007 1:14 PM | Link to this
Inside Edition was a fly on the wall of a little publicized players’ only meeting following the Braves’ heart-breaking loss the Minnesota Twins on Thursday. Note: this transcript has been edited for publication.
Chipper Jones: Over? Did you say “over”? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!
Kelly Johnson: Germans?
John Smoltz: Forget it, he’s rolling.
Chipper Jones: And it ain’t over now. ‘Cause when the goin’ gets tough… (thinks hard) … the tough get goin’! Who’s with me? Let’s go! (runs out out of clubhouse, alone; then returns)
Chipper Jones: What the (heck) happened to the Braves I used to know? Where’s the spirit? Where’s the guts, huh? “Ooh, we’re afraid to go with you Chipper, we might get in trouble.” Well just kiss my (butt) from now on! Not me! I’m not gonna take this. Sabbathia, he’s a dead man! Byrd, dead! Schilling …
John Smoltz: Dead! Chipper’s right. Psychotic, but absolutely right. We gotta take these (fatherless boys). Now we could do it with conventional weapons that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody’s part.
Chipper Jones: We’re just the guys to do it!
Edgar Renteria: Let’s do it!
Team in Unison: LET’S DO IT!
By eric the elder
June 15, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this
BobJ, your references yesterday to Pythagorean triples and a-b-c baseball were brilliant. Sadly they would fly over the heads of average citizens like Davies’ fast balls, although Francoeur would still swing at them.
Naturally, I do not include our bloggers, who are extraordinary, among average citizens. I left early last night because things had become foul and inane. Fortunately, the perps seem to have left around midnight, and the overnights made for some good reading.
By Bob, Journalist
June 15, 2007 1:18 PM | Link to this
Coach,
Who cares how many bases a player can steal if he can’t get on base? … Don’t let Shaun kid you … if you can’t get on base, you can’t steal ‘em … so stealing bases is important to ‘cause it indicates you’re getting on base.
Seems to me we have more trouble getting folks off bases than getting them on.
By Coach (NOT DRINKING THE KOOL AID)
June 15, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this
Braveheart would take KJ over Jose Reyes ! HAHHHAHAAHHHA ! HOOOOOHEEEEEEEE ! Their coming to take me away , their coming to take me away , to the funny farm , where all the nice little crazy people go ! dude , I have a straight jacket with your name on it. KJ over Jose Reyes . Your out of your frigging mind ! Braveheart gets the Forrest Gump award for the mindless drivel comment of the day ! Hooooray !
By eric the elder
June 15, 2007 1:25 PM | Link to this
Inside Edition, great stuff! Nothing like some giggles to get back some perspective.
By Carolina Lady
June 15, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this
Eric and Salty, thanks! Salty, no lecture; just my 2 cents. :-) LOVED that video, too! Just beyond words, wasn’t it?? Talk about a wing and a prayer!
LEADER OF THE BAND - Dan Fogelberg
An only child alone and wild
A cabinet maker’s son
His hands were meant for different work And his heart was known to none
He left his home and went his lone
And solitary way
And he gave to me a gift I know
I never can repay
A quiet man of music
Denied a simpler fate
He tried to be a soldier once
But his music wouldn’t wait
He earned his love through discipline A thundering, velvet hand
His gentle means of sculpting souls
Took me years to understand
The leader of the band is tired
And his eyes are growing old
But his blood runs through my instrument
And his song is in my soul
My life has been a poor attempt
To imitate the man
I’m just a living legacy
To the leader of the band
My brothers’ lives were different
For they heard another call
One went to Chicago
And the other to St Paul
And I’m in Colorado
When I’m not in some hotel
Living out this life I’ve chose
And come to know so well
I thank you for the music
And your stories of the road
I thank you for the freedom
When it came my time to go
I thank you for the kindness
And the times when you got tough
And, pap, I don’t think
I said, “I love you” near enough
The leader of the band is tired
And his eyes are growing old
But his blood runs through my instrument
And his song is in my soul
My life has been a poor attempt To imitate the man
I’m just a living legacy
To the leader of the band
I am the living legacy
To the leader of the band.
By Coach (NOT DRINKING THE KOOL AID)
June 15, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this
Well Bob , KJ gets on base and he still can’t steal’em. So what’s the point in even getting on base ? Makes perfect sense in Shuan’s world.
By Stuart
June 15, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this
I am actually going to be positive for once. I am positively sure that game sucked last night, j/k. It did suck, but the team actually played pretty well, except for the ninth inning. This loss is different from the recent funk. It hurts just the same and it could not have come at a worse time. Wickman just melted down and that is the price you pay with him. He is good 90% of the time, but teams that are slappys give hime trouble. That and as good as he is, he is going to blow one of out ten and do it spectacularly, like last night. If the braves play like they did the first 8, with a bit more hitting, they will be fine. They did play better last night, but Wicky had his meltdown. Maybe the bad spell and one in 10 wicky meltdown are past ‘em and the bravos can get back on track.
By David O'Brien
June 15, 2007 1:33 PM | Link to this
My odyssey is over, I’ve made it to Cleveland via Cincy, the most ridiculous, circuitous route I’ve taken to get anywhere in a while. At least it’s beautiful here today. Can see Jacobs Field from my window. This city’s really gotten a lot nicer since I was last here in 1997….
Bob, Journalist: I have nothing to do with selecting the winner of the T-shirt contest. Nothing. They don’t run them by me (maybe I should ask, give me one more thing to do during the day…)
By Bob, Journalist
June 15, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this
That was intended to include birthday greetings for our resident statistics guru but in moving it from bottom, something clicked …
Afternoon Reasonable One, you too My Lady!
Active Monitor says another of my fans has died and the CPU is overheating … off to get a new one!
That’s the trouble with growing old … I used to be quite popular but seems like I’m losing fans almost as fast as are the Braves and this is a young team.
By raindawg722
June 15, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this
Twice this season we’ve had sort of lingering maladies that turned out to be much worse than was initially suspected (Gonzalez and Chipper). The Gonzales case is particularly irksome because it was not until they decided to get the super-sophisticated MRI that they detected the problem with his elbow. In the mean time, Gonzalez had pitched a few times and could possibly have done worse injury to his elbow. There’s no way of knowing for sure, but perhaps if they had the super-sophisticated MRI done first then they would have realized that they had to shut him down immediately and could have saved him for at least part of the season. My point is, when you have invested several million dollars in a player who is critical to your team, why would you use anything but the most sophisticated diagnostic tools that exist?
Right now, I am concerned about Smoltz and how he keeps pushing back his start every time he pitches. My guess is he knows his shoulder isn’t quite right but he’s going to put it on the line for the team. I don’t want to read in the paper on Sunday morning that Smoltz was pulled from the game because his shoulder was bothering him, and then I really don’t want to read in Monday’s paper that results from an MRI indicate that Smoltz has a torn rotator cuff that will require season ending surgery.
By Tonight on TBS
June 15, 2007 1:34 PM | Link to this
Repeat broadcast:
Boras (Financial Undertakings of Atlanta for Make Benefit Glorious Center Fielder) (2006)
Kazakhstani super agent Boras travels to Atlanta to report on the “greatest contract in American baseball” that he plans to negotiate for centerfielder Andruw Jones. However Boras becomes sidetracked with locating and debating Jayson Stark. Hilarious.
By Voice of Reason
June 15, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this
Thanks, C-Lady, for the kind words. I am still a frequent reader, though I do not post as often. I must admit, I got a little burned out on the endless stream of mind numbing numbers. There is still a great deal of wisdom to be found here, but it’s like finding a great deal at TJ Maxx. It’s there, but you’ve got to be willing to sort through alot of crap…
As to the endless stream of numbers - I respect statistics, but I enjoy the play of the game. It’s the emotion and love of the game that keeps me near, not eye popping numbers. I’m enjoying watching Willie Harris because of his performance right now and because of the passion he displays. I could care less about his AVG, OPS, RBI, or XYZ. I am, however, down with DOB, but not OPP. My L5 is a little touchy, but 600mg of I3 and I’m OK.
By Shaun
June 15, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this
Braveheart,
Actually I wouldn’t look at times on base versus runs. Like RBI, runs are very context dependent—most of the time players need help driving in and scoring runs. Tells us as much or more about their teammates than it does any one player.
By Lew
June 15, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this
Nathan-Wicky’s had a couple of shaky outings this year, but did you see the graphic they put up last night comparing Wicky to Smoltz as a closer? Dude, Wicky had the same number of saves with only two more save oppurtunities in his last however many applicable save oppurtunities. Now if Smoltz was dominant in the closer’s role, so was Wicky. Just because they way they pitch is different, Wicky’s still had the same success as Smoltz and Billy Wagner, too. No, Dude, it’s not just what you’ve done this week. Never was and never will be. A good many people here look at a microcosm of a season and think it’s typical, when there’s no way it can be. For example, everyone who says look at what the Braves have done SINCE they started 7-1. Well, you know what? Those eight games count, too. So does Wicky’s performance since he’s been a Brave. That’s just the way it is. You have to take the good into account, not just the screw ups. BTW, Did you get my return email?
By Carolina Lady
June 15, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this
Inside Edition, now that was funny! Good stuff! :-))
By AthensBrave
June 15, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this
(maybe I should ask, give me one more thing to do during the day…)
Aww Dave, are you too busy following the Braves across the country and writing blogs about them? I feel so sorry for you.
If you need an assistant, I just graduated and I’m looking for a new job.
By Bob, Journalist
June 15, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this
Thanks Eric! My comments regarding the so called JS “humor” during the wee hours were probably not appreciated by some … but then that really doesn’t matter … now does it?
Inside Edition … Pricless!!!
Suttting dowm …
By Shaun
June 15, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this
Coach and Bob,
Again steals are nice but getting on is much more important.
KJ gets on base and he still can’t steal’em. So what’s the point in even getting on base ? Makes perfect sense in Shuan’s world.
What? If KJ gets on, whether he steals or not, that means he’s adding a baserunner without costing the Braves one of their outs. And he’s getting on in front of the best hitters on the team. Yes, it would be nice if he could steal 50 bases without getting caught much but I’d much rather have someone who can get on base as often as KJ than someone with Rickey Henderson’s speed that can get on base maybe only 30 percent of his plate appearances.
By Coach (NOT DRINKING THE KOOL AID)
June 15, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this
The Mets have Jose Reyes , they must be stupid(64 SB in 2006) ! The Devil Rays have Carl Crawford , they are losers(58 SB in 2006) ! The Angels have Chone Figgins , what a waste ! (52 SB in 2006) The Marlins have Hanley Ramirez , no talent(51 SB in 2006) ! Ha! they have it all wrong ! Shaun your right , baseball doesn’t need the stolen base or the bunt !
By Lew
June 15, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this
Coach-Quite honestly, I couldn’t care less if he steals bases or not. He scores runs. Isn’t THAT what we need, what we expect from a leadoff hitter and how they are evaluated?
By Gene Garbage
June 15, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this
DOB- you heard the new Ryan Adams album- Easy Tiger. not so bad. wilco @ chastain tues.
By Coach (NOT DRINKING THE KOOL AID)
June 15, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this
Are we having fun yet ? Hell yea ! Ok , I’m losing it. 28 hours straight , no sleep , time to crash before somebody puts me in a straight jacket ! No hard feelings ya’ll , it’s all good !
By Lew
June 15, 2007 1:59 PM | Link to this
Athens Brave-When was the last time you flew on our great American airlines? I tried this winter and spent three days in a hotel room hoping to fly SOMEWHERE. Didn’t David just tell you he flew the most ridiculous route to get where he was going. Dude, traveling our airways these days is much like going around your butt to get to your elbow. It makes no sense and takes ten times longer than any other way. I promise you, travel ain’t all that. YOU log 40,000 or 50,000 miles in a year, spend two months in a rental house instead of your own (where you still pay the mortgage and utilities) and then tell me how easy it is. He can’t leave in the seventh to beat traffic. I bet you do.
By Greg in TN
June 15, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this
Gang I believe the starting rotation can be upgraded before the trading deadline. I don’t think it will be easy because that has and always will be a need for everyone else too, but I also think JS can make a move that will solidify the rotation and help the team going down the stretch.
Lew, missed your B-day yesterday in reading through earlier posts. Happy belated birthday to you sir, for what it’s worth. Also happy birthday to Shaun.
Gonna get tougher tonight for sure. Sabathia is coming off of a complete game shutout of the Royals and a 3-hit no decision in an extra inning game against the Reds where he went nine innings and deserved a better fate (much like Hudson last night).
By Efrim
June 15, 2007 2:02 PM | Link to this
DOB
What do you think the morale of the team is?
They must be pretty down now. But I’m guessing everyone will just say that they will turn things around and they will eventually play better.
The offense hasn’t been consistent for a full 6 weeks. We scored 5 runs against Twin pitching.
Francouer is on pace for like 20 homers.
By StingerSplash
June 15, 2007 2:04 PM | Link to this
Cueing Derek Smalls: “Hello, Cleveland!” Oh for the love of Nigel Tufnel and David St. Hubbins do the Braves need to win tonight.
By wg
June 15, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this
Hey. Does anyone out there have a reason for not bringing Soriano back in the 9th after throwing only 10 pitches and not replacing Salty with Thorman for defense late in the game? I like Cox but sometimes he is too predictable.
By Lew
June 15, 2007 2:09 PM | Link to this
Thanks Greg-Much appreciated.
By Lew
June 15, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this
WG-The thought occurred to me after the end of the eight. However, then I realized Wicky hadn’t pitched in 4 or 5 days. Seems reasonable you bring in your closer in that situation-especially if he needed the work, which Wicky did. Dude, if that double and triple didn’t grow eyes to stay fair (by mere inches), if Salty and Escobar had done their job flawlessly, the outcome would have been much different and it wouldn’t even be a topic of conversation. Definitely time to move on. All this constant second guessing won’t change the regrettable results-nor will bashing Wicky.
By AthensBrave
June 15, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this
Lew, I know all about the trials of flying and would happily put up it and more if I had O’Brien’s job
By AthensBrave
June 15, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this
Lew, I know all about the trials of flying and would happily put up with it and more if I had O’Brien’s job
By Bob, Journalist
June 15, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this
From my other computer …
It is a matter of courtesy, respect for self and other people, and plain old fashioned good manners vs self-centered I’ll-do/say-whatever-I-want, disrespect for self and others, ill-mannered crudity. With which of the two would a person like to be associated? Filthy language is not funny and has nothing to do with humor
Sounds good to me …
By Steppenfox
June 15, 2007 2:21 PM | Link to this
The Minneapolis papers made a big deal out of it but no one around here seemed to notice that the home plate ump actually called the baserunner ++OUT++ on the tying run last night.
Never mind that the throw got away and the tag would have been light years late, good old Ed Hickox rung him up.
Is he on our payroll? What an argument that would have been had McCann held on to the ball.
By Shaun
June 15, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this
Coach (NOT DRINKING THE KOOL AID),
Who do the Red Sox have leading off?
I’m not against steals. In fact, I think they are great. Like an automatic double. But outs are more valuable than bases.
By Lew
June 15, 2007 2:28 PM | Link to this
AthensBrave-The point is that it ain’t the same as traveling down College Station to get to the Vet School. Yeah, it’s a cool job, but that shouldn’t be mistaken for being an EASY job. Travel can drain you, even in a cool job. Check out Frank Zappa’s 200 Motels. This town is like a sealed tuna sandwich (in a wrapper).
By DonCoburleone
June 15, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this
Inside Edition, I love it… LETS DO IT BRAVES!!! BOUNCE BACK AND TAKE 2 OF 3 FROM THE TRIBE!!!
By Shaun
June 15, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this
wg,
Because Wickman is his closer and has been the closer all season. You would think he could get three outs before the Twins score two or three runs, which he probably could most of the time. It just didn’t work out this time.
I guess that was kind of the same thinking with Salty. The chances of a ball being hit hard to him and him making an error were probably not worth using a player off the bench with a two-run lead.
By bruce
June 15, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this
Nice article written by Ryan Langerhans titled “Langerhans: Trading Places” on MLB Nats site. He tells about learning about the trade to the Nats and how he and his wife are adjusting to DC and more. Photo caption says, “Ryan Langerhans has batted .218 with one homer and seven RBIs in 33 games with the Nationals.” Still hoping for the best for him and a breakout from his current difficulties. Thanks, Bruce
By Lew
June 15, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this
Of Course-A Mudshark and a can of creamed corn can always make any trip more worthwhile. Where’s YOUR bullet, Baby?
By BamaBrave
June 15, 2007 2:39 PM | Link to this
Inside…five stars. Now if we could only get a shot of Chipper hiding under the bleachers, staring up and Mandy and Babs…
By Hunk Erdown
June 15, 2007 2:39 PM | Link to this
It is that annual time of year when Andruw puts the team on his back and starts hitting. It is definately fish or cut bait time for this team, and against murderers’ row. “If” we have a chance for post season, it is the next few weeks that will tell the tale. All the rah rah-ing or all the gloom and doom… neither means nothing. Time to either step up and start playing some PRO ball or chop this friggin team up at the end of the year.
By GeorgetownKid
June 15, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this
Mr. O’Brien,
I bet I can beat your recent circuitous travel route.
I recently had to travel to Kenya. To get there I flew from Washington DC to Los Angeles to Hong Kong to Dubai to Addis Abba to Nairobi, Kenya.
My knees were so stiff by the end of the trip that I could barely walk, but I did get a nice bundle of frequent-flyer miles.
On an unrelated note, what is the current vibe amongst the players? Are they taking a big-picture view in which their current slide isn’t considered too alarming given the length of the season and the small gap between them and the Mets? Or are they as frustrated as many of your blog-denizens appear to be?
By David O'Brien
June 15, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this
Gene Garbage (quite a screen name, I must say), I haven’t heard it but read good things about it. Definitely will get it.
I met a girl in Minneapolis who’s connected to someone in the record industry and sends her CDs ahead of release dates. She’s had the new Pumpkins CD for three weeks and said it’s great.
By A-ville Ranger
June 15, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this
I’ve made two (that I’m aware of)embarrassing mistakes this week on this here blog.If I’m not careful I’ll find myself playing first base.The latest was missing the fact Escobar was playing third base and Chipper DHing last night.That’ll teach me not to do(try to that is) three things at once.I will be more careful next time.The other goober headed snafu…..well I’ll not share that one just yet.
By Arkansas Hillbilly
June 15, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this
Coach (NOT DRINKING THE KOOL AID),
Who do the Red Sox have leading off?
Shaun, I noticed lastnight that J.D. Drew was their leadoff man. What the…..?
By jsizzle
June 15, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this
Rebuttal, Part Deux.
JC Bradbury aka Baseball Nerd’s study of Andruw Jones’ D
Jayson Stark is a nutter. Around the Dirty Dirty, we know Andruw is two things: 1)Andruw is the definition of streaky hitter, but he always drives in a lot of runs and 2)He is THE MAN in CF. No one is/was better.
He stakes his claim on Zone Rating, a stat that has been trashed by a lot of baseball nerds, including the dude who created it! Second, he says Andruw’s put outs have decline