AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2007 > June > 10 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USChipper takes batting practice
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
You thought the win last night was good news, folks? Because the Braves finally broke their four-game losing streak? Well, I’ve got some more for you: Chipper was on the field taking batting practice just now, and saying shortly thereafter depending on how things go, he could be back as soon as Tuesday when the Braves start a series against the Twins.
And even if he has to take it slower than that, he said he hopes no later than Cleveland, which is Friday.
“I’ll probably come in early tomorrow before we leave to go to Minnesota, take some more batting practice from both sides, see how it feels,” Jones said. “Depending on that I guess we’ll make a decision on Tuesday. If it feels good enough to go, I want to get back in there. If I’m still feeling pain, I’ll probably wait another couple days.” “I really hope it’s soon on this road trip,” Jones said. “But at the very latest maybe Cleveland.”
Chipper saw a hand specialist Saturday and came out of the hand splints he’s been wearing for five days. He took groundballs and did a little throwing Saturday, but the big test was with the bat. And he took his first steps toward answering that Sunday, first by hitting off a tee, then hitting against coaches on the field.
Jones hit from both sides, including the left, which gives him more pain on the follow-through.
“I don’t feel any pain going to the ball, it’s mostly on the follow through left-handed,” Jones said.
“It’s still a little tender. Right-handed I feel ok. My bat is slow - you take two weeks off, the ball is not coming off the bat the way you want it to. The main thing is being able to get in there and look at something coming at you and take swings.”
Jones said he is going to get some pads put in his batting gloves to help absorb some of the shock. But he’s coming away encouraged right now.
“My bat speed is really slow, but I was happy with the way it held up,” Jones said.
Brian McCann gets the night off tonight. Bobby said he wanted to give McCann two days off, and with the off day Monday that would give McCann’s left ankle a chance to get an extended rest.
It dawned on me driving to the ballpark this afternoon: did DOB really want today off to make a presentation on blogging to the Georgia Sportswriters Convention? Or was it more about the finale of the Sopranos. Hm.
It’s all right. I might be the only one in America not into that show. Don’t have HBO. So I might as well be here. And yes, you good readers have helped make Dave quite the trailblazer in our industry. So give yourselves a pat on the back.
And thanks to those who responded to my plea
for comments on watching the draft. Y’all did great. And I’m giving a shoutout to Roy Clark, who came out of the draft room Friday in the middle of making 50 gazillion picks, to help keep AJC readers well informed.
And lastly, did you catch the SportSouth spotlight on Jeff Francoeur last night? His baseball life story? Not sure if I’m supposed to be plugging TV on this here blog, but it’s definitely worth catching. Think it’s on again tonight at 11, Monday at 1 p.m. and Tuesday at 6:30 p.m. Clearly Katy Temple will be picking up our next dinner tab on the road. But hey, it’s well done.
Services »
Comments
By Todd A
June 10, 2007 7:02 PM | Link to this
Who believes Tony gets whacked tonight?I think he and Paulie will survive,and Phil will “sleep with the fishes.”What say you,bloggers?
By A-Ville Ranger
June 10, 2007 7:04 PM | Link to this
It looks like Jeff Gordon got lucky with the rain and will win the Pocano race.When you’re good the luck seems to follow.
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 7:05 PM | Link to this
That’s great news on Chipper! Gotta get the win tonight to gain another game on the Muts. If CDhipper is back Tuesday the momentum will be there to get on a roll.
By Mike
June 10, 2007 7:09 PM | Link to this
thats great news about chipper thanks carrol…its not over yet folks, as bad as the braves have played the last few weeks if they win tonight they are only 2 and half games back of the mets after they lost to the tigers today…Think about everything that has gone wrong so far, the injuries to hampton, gonzalez, chipper, mccann, smoltz, cormier, and the horrible starts by Andruw Jones and Kyle Davies…This team has still hung in there and guess what they’re going to get healthier..chipper is going to come back, mccann and smoltz are going to heal, hopefully Escobar stays with the big club, and Andruw Jones is not going to hit 220 for the entire season…It just won’t happen, hes to great a player and has to much pride, he really stepped up last night when the braves needed a win and i expect him to play closer to that level the rest of the season…As for Tim Hudson, I definitley dont expect him to be roughed up like last year or like he has been the last 3 or 4 starts with the exception of Milwaukee, but he may not be the kind of pitcher that he was in april…I sure hope he is but if he is only in between what he was in april and what he was in may, while being a tad closer to his april form that should be enough…15 or 16 wins with a 3.30 era should be plenty good if smoltz continues to do his thing and chuck james continues to make strides…Davies probably is going to be hit or miss the rest of the season but that won’t be the difference between the braves making the postseason and not making it…I do think Lance Cormier is much better than he showed in the two cubs starts…They may have rushed him back to quickly…You can tell that he knows how to pitch…Anyways I am still optimistic about the rest of the season. I think the Braves have seen their worst early and have hung in there and now things will be falling into place
By AMG
June 10, 2007 7:15 PM | Link to this
I don’t have HBO either … you are not alone.
Good chance for the Braves to showcase some of their young talent on a nationally televised game.
By Chop Chop
June 10, 2007 7:32 PM | Link to this
Congrats to DOB for the hard work. If he ever wins a cash award for his hard work, he can split it up among the denizens here.
Fifteen-cent checks are worth framing, aren’t they?
By dc
June 10, 2007 7:33 PM | Link to this
The Braves’s need Chipper back and for andrew to get going. Tony might live. but the Soprano’s will die tonight. They gave us a good run though. Just like the Brave’s did.
By Carolina Lady
June 10, 2007 7:39 PM | Link to this
Sopranos? I was always an alto.
By Bob, Journalist
June 10, 2007 7:42 PM | Link to this
A-Ville Ranger, the one who said he’d rather be lucky than good … only said it because he was good!
He was also known to have said that skill puts you in position to win, luck seals the deal.
Speaking of seals, I give my approval to the Braves’ winning big tonight … it would not be at all unseemly for them to so do; given that it’s on ESPN!
I wonder if it’s blacked out here in Nashville?!
By Wickman Fan
June 10, 2007 7:44 PM | Link to this
I just watched Queen’s video “We are the Champions” on YouTube. I want to see Smoltz, The Jones Boys, Bobby and the “Baby Braves” in slow motion being shown jumping up and down in umm October/November this year. 12 yrs is too long. It is time to bring home a CHAMPIONSHIP, Braves! ATL needs it! Ok, I am going to get another beer.
By MBATL
June 10, 2007 7:47 PM | Link to this
Carroll, thanks for the update on CJ. I really enjoy the reporting you do on the Braves.
I hope Chipper will take it as it comes, not rush it. We need him for the next four months, not the next four days.
You mention the “trail blazing” of this blog… of course, there’s little Pulitzer material here, but it is a pretty active forum for discussing Braves B’ball. I’ve tried to find Mets, Cubs, Phillies blogs to infiltrate (and destroy, of course), and never really found any that seem consistently active. How unique is this blog? Seems to me that there aren’t many better, supporting any team.
Of course, Dave would be way too modest to talk about the blog’s success. Of course.
But I really am wondering - anyone know? Are there any team-oriented baseball blogs out there that rival this one?
By Coach
June 10, 2007 7:50 PM | Link to this
In case no one has seen the final score: Detroit 15 Mets 7 and Kansas City 17 Philadelphia 5. Our two division rivals both got blown out today , hopefully the Braves can take advantage of the situation and pick up another game.
By Larry
June 10, 2007 7:54 PM | Link to this
All I can say is I hope you feel well enough soon. The team misses you, it’s obvious, but my fantasy teams…boy, they really need you.
By Greg in TN
June 10, 2007 7:54 PM | Link to this
Evening denizens…
Thanks for the update Carroll, aka Miss Baseball (don’t worry Carroll, no crown or scepter to have to carry through the press box to the look of wonder from your fellow scribes).
Did anyone catch highlights from Comerica today? Couldn’t tell if it was a baseball game or a Hitchcock remake with all the birds all over the place. Tigers get the TD and 2-point conversion.
If you told me after the week we’ve had on the diamond that we have a chance to gain a game on the mets, I’d have to shake my head and have my hearing checked, but I’ll take it.
Great news on Chipper’s progress. I think as dysfunctional as the offense has been lately (last night’s 9-run outburst aside), Chipper will go a long long way toward bringing us back to more consistency. I also think the extra rest for B-Mac will do a world of good at this point in the season.
Coming up on ten minutes to first pitch at the Ted.
By AMG
June 10, 2007 7:57 PM | Link to this
The Mets must not have a blog… they are always showing up here.
ESPN game … I wonder if Andruw has a big game tonight… people with money may be watching.
By Chop Chop
June 10, 2007 8:00 PM | Link to this
Here are some clips for the denizens to peruse:
Glory Days
For Met-haters, here’s a clip for ya…
Step Right Up And Beat The Mets
Gotta love YouTube…
By Meanie
June 10, 2007 8:07 PM | Link to this
Correction, AMG. Mutts bloggers are unlikely to show up tonight after their ace got shelled in a 15 run explosion. You heard it here first, folks- the Mets’ pitching has been exposed recently and they will struggle to play .500 ball the rest of the year. Remember Glavine’s first two years up there? He adjusted last year, now the league is adjusting save the Braves who see left-handed pitches about as well as mosquitoes. I’ll put the Mutts at 85 wins give or take. Only question is whether we’ll be any better than that. DOB is right, this thing is winnable.
By ernesto
June 10, 2007 8:08 PM | Link to this
My pre-game prediction? No matter what happens tonight we won’t be hearing from No-Class Zone, Metman, or assorted other Met idiots after the Tigers hung 15 on them today. Let’s take a game back!
By RedandBlackAttack
June 10, 2007 8:08 PM | Link to this
I would like for Chipper to take more time. If he has to put padding in his glove and his hands are still bothering him on the follow through, then he needs to settle down some more. I agree, the Bravos need Chipper for the rest of the season and not just for tomorrow. The real question we all should be thinking about is who will be hitting the road once Chipper is activated on the roster? Will it be Woodard or Orr? Surely, Escobar has seen the last of the minors. He can play. And, a lot better than Orr or Woodard. Gooo Braves!!!
By ernesto
June 10, 2007 8:11 PM | Link to this
and the Royals (???????) hung what 15 or 17 on hte Phils.
Marlins lost too. Let’s get a W
By Braveheart
June 10, 2007 8:12 PM | Link to this
Great writing, great updates, Carroll.
DOB asked out of the lineup tonight? What, did Bobby hit him sixth or something?
By journalist jimmy smith
June 10, 2007 8:14 PM | Link to this
look who’s talking seals … perhaps baby seal should pay a visit to nashville. baby seal insists on going to washington again in search of the great seal of the united states. no matter what jimmy smith says, baby seal is determined to go. may see langerhans while there. now, baseball … journalist just muted joe morgan and is listening to skip caray. all is well. and this is good news about chipper and the thumbs - sounds like a rock group. thumb health is important in baseball but but toe health is essential. it is very perceptive of dob to point out that it is sore toes that should be of greater concern. and who will fit chipper’s batting gloves with the little pads? and what kind of pads will be used? well, carlyle got soriano out so carlyle is ahead of most of this staff.
By Bob, Journalist
June 10, 2007 8:15 PM | Link to this
Poor Tommy … he’s 5-4 … what did he give up today … I can’t remember but think it was 11 hits and nine runs.
Hopefully it’s just me, but following that little peek at peter, I think he looked a bit peaked.
Surprise, surprise … Who’s still on first! Unfortunately, Matt’s not.
By MEB
June 10, 2007 8:15 PM | Link to this
I wonder how much cheese was consumed at the Georgia Sportswriters banquet? I’m sure there was an impressive layout and that everyone had a huge time.
Enquiring minds want to know if DOB had a date for the affair? Was this event worthy of a tux or was it just coat and tie? Who was DOB wearing? Was it JC Penny or Dillards? So many questions to blog about.
By A-Ville Ranger
June 10, 2007 8:17 PM | Link to this
Escobar will learn you can’t be passive with the glove at third.
By MBATL
June 10, 2007 8:18 PM | Link to this
So, according to Gammons, Lou Pinata ordered Dereck Lee to conduct a “players only” meeting to find out if he (Pinata) had lost command of the team. The answer, apparently, was, “No, coach, the guys support you.” Except for the guys not playing much, who complained that they weren’t, uh, playing much.
And now, the Cub players hear on national tv that Lee conducted the meeting on Pinata’s command… how much cred does he maintain?
Throw Bobby Cox to the curb if you want. I’m just glad that I don’t hear this kind of soap opera material about the Braves.
By eric the elder
June 10, 2007 8:18 PM | Link to this
Yunel needs 3 hits tonite to make up for that error, else he could be sent down when Chipper returns.
By Bob, Journalist
June 10, 2007 8:18 PM | Link to this
I know it was an error but I thought Yunel played that well … post oops!
By SteelCav
June 10, 2007 8:18 PM | Link to this
Buddy is popping the mitt tonight. Will we see retribution?
By Greg in TN
June 10, 2007 8:20 PM | Link to this
Good first inning from Buddy Carlyle. Looked like Escobar was a little surprised by that hop off the bat of Derrick Lee.
Let’s get some runs on Lilly!
By Chop This
June 10, 2007 8:21 PM | Link to this
Grinch, if you’ve got any friends with HBO, you’d better hightail it over to their house, because there’s no way you’re going to be able to avoid hearing how “The Sopranos” ends. It’s going to be all over the TV, Internet and newpaper starting at 10:06 p.m. tonight. Even this blog will probably be half-Braves, half-Sopranos at that time.
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 8:21 PM | Link to this
God I hate those Sunday home uniforms the Braves wear. They could could only look more rediculous if they had blue pants, red stockings & white shoes.
Any throwback uniforms on the calander this year?
By A-Ville Ranger
June 10, 2007 8:22 PM | Link to this
Meanie I can’t feel good about Glavine getting hammered.He is still family.
By eric the elder
June 10, 2007 8:24 PM | Link to this
Steelcav - - you called it!
By N8
June 10, 2007 8:25 PM | Link to this
Nice call Robert.
Looks like we could have ourselves a brawl tonight.
Pinella stands there shrugging, like…..”what?”
This could get “fun”.
By SteelCav
June 10, 2007 8:25 PM | Link to this
Yep, that was payback. Ok, hopefully, that’s squashed.
By bocabrave
June 10, 2007 8:29 PM | Link to this
goodbye lilly, goodbye lilly, goodbye lilly, etc. Hudson is a genius and one of the guys on this team with balls of steel.
By bocabrave
June 10, 2007 8:31 PM | Link to this
allllright edgar!!!
By N8
June 10, 2007 8:31 PM | Link to this
Hey. Yippy for us.
LHP is out of the game. LOVE IT!
I have to say though, as a fan of the pitchers being allowed to take what is rightfuly theirs (the plate), I’m not a fan of kicking Lilly out, without warnings being given.
LOVE IT. Renteria tries to knock the guy out at 2B.
THIS IS GONNA BE GREAT!
Put on your helmets, fasten your seatbelts. It’s war.
By TennesseePaul
June 10, 2007 8:31 PM | Link to this
OUTSTANDING GAME SO FAR! Love the fire! Love Renteria’s slide. This is baseball.
By BRAVES FOREVER
June 10, 2007 8:31 PM | Link to this
I don’t know how this is great news,the sales at dunkin donuts,krspy-cream,and mcdonalds in the atlanta area,will take a hard blow in sales,as soon as fat dipper decides he wants to play again. as soon as he hit the hard carpet in minn. guess what all of a sudden his poor acking feet will act up.WHATS WRONG WITH THE WAY THE KID THEY BROUGHT UP TO PLAY WHILE DIPPER HAS BEEN ON VACATION,AT LEAST HE’S PICKING UP GROUND BALLS.PLEASE DIPPER FOR THE GOOD OF THE TEAM TAKE YOUR MONEY,GLOVE, AND BAT AND JUST GO HOME, YOU’VE HAD A GOOD RUN BUT NOW IT’S OVER,YOU WILL GET PAID LONG AFTER YOU STOP EMBARRSING YOURSELF.
By mr baseball
June 10, 2007 8:32 PM | Link to this
The umpire who threw Lilly out of the game needs to be suspended by MLB, but you know that will never happen. What he did is beyond pathetic and is an example of the arrogance of officials in sports who think they control what transpires on the field. Their job is to enforce the rules, not to determine the outcome of the game. What an a$$.
By A-Ville Ranger
June 10, 2007 8:32 PM | Link to this
It looks like Edgar had a pi$$ and vinegar pre game drink.
By Greg in TN
June 10, 2007 8:33 PM | Link to this
This has all the feel of one of those classic tilts from the 80s. Like Claudell Washington charging Mario Soto or Kurt Bevacqua chasing Pascual Perez to the Braves dugout and instead running into Bob Horner with a cast on his wrist.
The late Gordon Solie would be enjoying this game tonight.
By MEB
June 10, 2007 8:33 PM | Link to this
Carroll… looks like you picked a good game to sub for DOB. Edgar is playing with some attitude now. Ya gotta love that slide into second. Been a long time since I’ve seen one like that. I hope this translates into some runs tonight.
GO BRAVES!!!
By PhillyGirl
June 10, 2007 8:34 PM | Link to this
Props to Renteria.
By brent a.
June 10, 2007 8:34 PM | Link to this
Okay, so I’m in a hotel with no DVR, and there are no commercials during the Soprano’s.
Gotta find out what happens, but I’d hate to miss a fight in the ATL.
Go Braves!
By Jason
June 10, 2007 8:34 PM | Link to this
Wow what a hit by renteria!!! In the nose of Fontano
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 8:35 PM | Link to this
This game is going to get nasty. I knew it was coming.
Like I said last night just keep the bullpen in the dugout so they are not too winded from sprinting in to be effective in a brawl.
By PhillyGirl
June 10, 2007 8:35 PM | Link to this
Props to Renteria.
By PhillyGirl
June 10, 2007 8:35 PM | Link to this
Props to Renteria.
By Calvin
June 10, 2007 8:36 PM | Link to this
Does anyone know the record for when the Braves wear their Sunday red?
Btw, nice forearm shiver by Renteria.
By Randy
June 10, 2007 8:36 PM | Link to this
Yunel played the ball well (got in front of it), but he’s gotta get rid of that glove pat with the ball before throwing. It was the difference in the play.
By A-Ville Ranger
June 10, 2007 8:36 PM | Link to this
bocabrave I’d trade Hudson’s steel balls for one that sinks.
By S Turn
June 10, 2007 8:37 PM | Link to this
Nice slide Edgar
By Greg O.
June 10, 2007 8:37 PM | Link to this
I could be wrong, but it looked to me like the last Lilly pitch hit Renteria in the face with it also getting some hand. Even if it didn’t get him in the head, it was in the area and Edgar had every right to be upset about that. That being said, Edgar just pulled an A-Rod with the play at second - and the last thing we need is him being ejected and/or suspended.
By N8
June 10, 2007 8:39 PM | Link to this
fastasballs
Totally agree with you on the uni’s. They make the powder blues in the 80’s look good.
Alright, I know he had one bad outing, followed by a really good one. But I have to say, Buddy looks darn good so far.
Have we found some help for the rotation?
By Robert
June 10, 2007 8:42 PM | Link to this
Looks like the Braves are gonna play with fire in their eyes - for four or five games until they feel they have “shown everyone once again”.
Then they will slowly slide back into complacency - busy making sure their tee times arent interrupted and that noone is wearing sunglasses on their cap during bp
They jumped out of the gate 7-1 like this because they felt they werent getting the respect they felt entitled to from the league at large.
On a brighter note, lord knows we need a healthy Chipper back if we’re gonna have any chance of starting another division title streak to make everyone else jealous (yeah, right)
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 8:43 PM | Link to this
Nice couple of innings by Buddy C. Yes the emotion is there, I love it. Renteria about removed the shortstop’s nose. If that guy was not a rookie a few games removed from the minors the fight would have been on right there.
By Greg O.
June 10, 2007 8:43 PM | Link to this
Home Plate Umpire - Jim Wolf, brother of L.A. Dodgers lefty Randy Wolf… apparently that didn’t lead to sympathy for left-handed pitchers.
By Robert
June 10, 2007 8:44 PM | Link to this
“I just watched Queen’s video “We are the Champions” on YouTube. I want to see Smoltz, The Jones Boys, Bobby and the “Baby Braves” in slow motion being shown jumping up and down in umm October/November this year”
Wouldnt we all ! But there aint a chance in Hades of that happening unless the team enemizes the retard out of the dugout
By A-Ville Ranger
June 10, 2007 8:45 PM | Link to this
ADO !!ADO!! Time to watch AJ Soprano get whacked in the cross fire.My boy look what they did to my boy,fa’ged’a’bat’it.
By Greg O.
June 10, 2007 8:46 PM | Link to this
Early prediction based on what I just heard from ESPN’s airing of the home plate umpire’s comments to Ted Lilly and Lou Piniella - Jim Wolf will be suspended for a game or two and all umpires will refuse to wear a microphone ever again.
By Bob, Journalist
June 10, 2007 8:48 PM | Link to this
We never could get the song right cause my mama always want to sing bass.
Jimmy, I honestly tried to think of a different transition as I know Baby Seal is more deserving but with so many things that should not be named, and having lost my 20 footer, I was left with few choices; not that using left is the right thing to say either.
By Robert
June 10, 2007 8:48 PM | Link to this
“That being said, Edgar just pulled an A-Rod with the play at second”
What a wonderful move - letting a nationwide ESPN audience see the Braves acting bush
Donk is on center stage and the stench is gonna choke America
By bocabrave
June 10, 2007 8:48 PM | Link to this
a’ville ranger, agree on hudson’s sinker. but we’ve (at least many bloggers) have been on this team about a lack of fire. what hudson and renteria did shows some fire. my god, they look like they care.
By eric the elder
June 10, 2007 8:48 PM | Link to this
Meanwhile, 4 of our first 6 outs have been Ks.
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 8:50 PM | Link to this
The homeplate umpire just made a fool of himself on national tv. I didn’t know he was wearing a mic, even more reason for him to show his a*&. Let the players take care of it until it starts getting out of hand & then step in if needed.
By Ron
June 10, 2007 8:51 PM | Link to this
Joe Morgan shut the f*** up you piece of sh!t!!!!!!!!! He said why was Hudson not ejected? What a f*** bafoon!!!!!!! There were absolutely NO warnings before Hudson hit Soriano yesterday you f*** MORON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By MEB
June 10, 2007 8:52 PM | Link to this
I think Pinella had grounds to go ballistic tonight. The home plate umpire mishandled the situation completely and I bet he will hear about it in the coming days.
Can Thorman look any worse at the plate? Craig Wilson wasn’t this bad… was he?
By N8
June 10, 2007 8:53 PM | Link to this
Isn’t it nice to know that if any of the Cub’s hitter’s decide to charge the mound, that Salty is back there to be the “first on the scene?”
That’s one BIG boy, that I’m not sure I’d grapple with.
By Meanie
June 10, 2007 8:53 PM | Link to this
This unwritten rule crap is just that, a crock of crap. The rules absolutely require an umpire to toss the player out if he knows he intentionally threw at a batter. Warnings would be issued if the umpire was unsure in order to prevent retaliation. And speaking of unwritten rules, doesn’t a mythical one exist that prevents a pitcher from throwing at a batter’s head? I’ve seen interviews with players who say that code on the issue is waist down. I personally think it’s all silliness anyway. If you want to kick some guy’s arse cause you think he threw at you then find him after the game and do it right…
By A-Ville Ranger
June 10, 2007 8:54 PM | Link to this
Man Edgar is THE man tonight,great play.
By Hedgehog
June 10, 2007 8:55 PM | Link to this
I don’t know how anyone could be proud of Edgar Renteria acting like a street punk.
By Randy
June 10, 2007 8:56 PM | Link to this
Ummm, I know it benefited the Braves, but I would expect a little more outrage on Lilly getting tossed. There is no way you toss him there, especially since he’s the starting pitcher and it’s the 1st inning. Baseball has gotten weird.
And though I like seeing Edgar all jazzed up, that slide was questionable. Spikes up is all good, but the forearm is pushing it.
By Greg O.
June 10, 2007 8:58 PM | Link to this
Robert,
If Bobby Cox is worrying about which network is televising the game, he should be fired. But he’s not - only an idiot would think that. Knowing you, you just won’t get it, so I’ll put it in plainer text - YOU ARE A MORON.
By Bob, Journalist
June 10, 2007 8:59 PM | Link to this
I know that I’ll be accused of doing that which should not be named but I truly hope that Robert has an experience … similar to that suggested by Eddie Murphy’s “i can see! … I can walk!” routine in Trading Places … sooner, rather than later.
Regardless of his past or his future, I like Buddy Carlyle’s grit … it’s nice to see someone going after folks!
By Meanie
June 10, 2007 9:00 PM | Link to this
Oh yeah I forgot to mention… Jon Miller said a few minutes ago, “Cubs fans have to be asking ,’What else can go wrong this year?’” That’s some funny stuff. Cubs fans been saying that every year for ,oh, the last 80 or so….
By A-Ville Ranger
June 10, 2007 9:00 PM | Link to this
Kelly would be a good #2 if needed.home run to rt.Later all it’s Soprano time.
By SteelCav
June 10, 2007 9:01 PM | Link to this
Atta boy Kelly.
By Greg in TN
June 10, 2007 9:03 PM | Link to this
KJ!!!!!
Great play by Renteria on the grounder by Soriano in the top half of the inning.
I too am surprised that Wolf ran Lilly, but I’d be shocked if MLB suspended Wolf and I would also imagine that the umpire’s union would absolutely throw a fit over that.
Nice base knock by Edgar. Easily, he’s one of the big reasons why we are as close to the lead in the East as we are right now.
By MEB
June 10, 2007 9:04 PM | Link to this
Kelly you da man!!! Kelly Johnson and Edgar Rentaria are in a dead heat for the MVP of the Braves so far. Both of them deserve All Star selection.
That slow motion of Edgar sliding into Fontenot is priceless! That is how the bean ball should have been taken care of… on the field.
By journalist jimmy smith
June 10, 2007 9:05 PM | Link to this
if the sun-times or tribune writers carry this into the pressbox, let’s be glad carroll is there instead of dob. there must have been a lot of cheese consumed at that meeting today like meb says. probably too much cheese. this journalist likes our chances better with carroll.
now, why does andruw not run when andruw strikes the ball?
By S Turn
June 10, 2007 9:10 PM | Link to this
Hey you idiots that keep talking trash about Edgar. It’s baseball, let me know what you would do if someone threw a 90mph baseball at your head.
By Stuart
June 10, 2007 9:11 PM | Link to this
I hate how ESPN just licks the sacks of all the cubs. It is sick and I have now muted the channel.
By mr baseball
June 10, 2007 9:12 PM | Link to this
Ron: Typically I disagree with about 90 percent of what Joe “Mr. Conventional Wisdom” Morgan says, but in this case he’s 100 percent right. Even as a Braves fan, it was obvious Hudson was throwing at Soriano last night, and was considerably less obvious that Lilly was throwing at Soriano. After listening to Randy Wolf’s jacka$$ brother display his clairvoyance (and arrogance) to a national audience, I’m guessing his new nickname will be “Kreskin.”
If Piniella protested the game on grounds of an ump confusing himself for a deity, he would have a very strong case.
By eric the elder
June 10, 2007 9:18 PM | Link to this
Here is Rule 8.0.2(d) of the official rule book:
(d) Intentionally Pitch at the Batter.
If, in the umpire’s judgment, such a violation occurs, the umpire may elect either to:
Expel the pitcher, or the manager and the pitcher, from the game, or
may warn the pitcher and the manager of both teams that another such pitch will result in the immediate expulsion of that pitcher (or a replacement) and the manager.
If, in the umpire’s judgment, circumstances warrant, both teams may be officially “warned” prior to the game or at any time during the game.
Rule 8.02(d) Comment: To pitch at a batter’s head is unsportsmanlike and highly dangerous. It should be—and is—condemned by everybody. Umpires should act without hesitation in enforcement of this rule.
It is that part (comment) that must apply here, because Wolf was heard to say that Lilly had thrown at Edgar’s head, in his judgment.
Not trying to start a big debate - - just citing the rule.
By AMG
June 10, 2007 9:19 PM | Link to this
BUDDY … WOW!!
Why was he on his way to AAA????
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 9:22 PM | Link to this
I’ve turned the sound off, I can’t stand Miller or Morgan. Now they are going to talk about the pronunciation of Diaz’s last name the rest of the evening. Remember Miller & Wilson Bait-A-Meat.
Was that Joe Morgan’s a$& on the field earlier or was Andruw getting a new wide screen delivered to the clubhouse?
By Greg O.
June 10, 2007 9:23 PM | Link to this
Gotta respect the way Piniella handled himself in the interview - and his team’s struggles this year. The fight in the dugout was unfortunate, but went away about as quickly as it could’ve. I believe his ejection last weekend was purely to wake up his team (and it did). And he also kept his cool tonight, the right move in the first inning a scoreless game. Then, in the interview, he didn’t point fingers or overreact - he just stated facts and didn’t create any further controversy.
By S Turn
June 10, 2007 9:31 PM | Link to this
Give up the intent crap Morgan. You guys are right I can handle Miller and Morgan.
By journalist jimmy smith
June 10, 2007 9:31 PM | Link to this
better to pinch hit with paris hilton than with woodward. what is taking so long getting brayan pena here? why is woodward still here?
By cwk
June 10, 2007 9:32 PM | Link to this
woodward crashes the party 2nite lets hope renteria is ok
By Calvin
June 10, 2007 9:33 PM | Link to this
you think bobby sat Edgar down because of the forearm he gave to that rookie 2nd baseman?
By Braves Fan 79
June 10, 2007 9:34 PM | Link to this
Woodward: the master of the strikeout and weak fly out! Man if outs were homers he would be Babe Ruth….
By JasonInMaine
June 10, 2007 9:34 PM | Link to this
Is our bench the worst in baseball? Bases loaded and we have to send woodward to the plate…ouch. I rather send up Davies…or waste two players by hitting Willie and putting woodward in the field!
By N8
June 10, 2007 9:36 PM | Link to this
Gotta LOVE Woodward being our “best” option if Renteria goes down.
Let’s hope that that AB doesn’t come back to bite us tonight.
Good golly.
Don’t look now, but Buddy has given up ONLY 2 hits in his last 11 IP. OK, as I type that, he gives up a leadoff hit in the 5th inning. LOL!
Still, VERY impressive. Obviously that kind of “pace” cannot (and will not) continue. But I do believe, he deserves another start, and then another and another until he shows that he doesn’t.
By N8
June 10, 2007 9:40 PM | Link to this
Is the game that Smoltz is talking about, the one where Eddie Perez punched Paul Bird as he was trying to “appologize” to him, when he was batting?
That was classic.
GET THORMAN THE HELL OUT OF THERE!!!!!!!!!!!
First, he has NO RANGE to even come close to knocking down the triple, NOW he pulls a LaRoche by taking his sweet old time.
GO AWAY.
By eric the elder
June 10, 2007 9:40 PM | Link to this
Can anyone explain to me how so many Cubs fans are in the field level seats? Aren’t those seats that would be held by Braves season ticket holders?
By chrisklob
June 10, 2007 9:41 PM | Link to this
I was away from the TV for a few minutes. Why did Renty come out of the game?
By Randy
June 10, 2007 9:41 PM | Link to this
I agree, throwing at the head is dangerous and wrong. Both Hudson and Lilly threw balls that were too close to the head.
By cwk
June 10, 2007 9:42 PM | Link to this
ESPN just licks the sacks of all the cubs
hahahahhahahaha rofl lmao
By MEB
June 10, 2007 9:44 PM | Link to this
I think an Alfonso Soriano should be served with a little ketchup, mustard, and relish, hold the onions.
By N8
June 10, 2007 9:45 PM | Link to this
What a F’n prick! Soriano stands, with his bat in the air and watches the ball…..fall into the glove on the warning track.
I now believe that he should be HIT AGAIN. Because he didn’t get the message last night.
So here we sit. Last half of the inning, bases loaded in a 2-0 game. And Caryy on my “Woodward” Son KILLS THE RALLY! Then the following half inning, Thorman can’t even get a glove on a ball down the line, when he was holding the runner on, THEN falls asleep and fails to get the guy at 1B. If Thorman gets the out at 1B, Soriano’s fly ball ends the inning, with the Braves STILL up 2-1.
This game is on JS, if they lose.
UNREAL.
By journalist jimmy smith
June 10, 2007 9:46 PM | Link to this
jimmysmiththinks the braves may need a small-ball run tonight. now, which of these two teams is more likely to score one run if needed? hmmm…
and woodward at least made contact with the ball with the bases loaded. still, the blogger is right, it is sad that woodward is the bench for this team. pinella could make a couple moves and bobby will run out of players. we must wait and see.
By ernesto
June 10, 2007 9:47 PM | Link to this
Hi, my name is Chris Woodward
Turn ons: grounding out weakly, popping up, whiffing, and at least one meaningless home run a year (or less).
Turn offs: making a difference, earning my paycheck, ducking when things are hurled at me by outraged fans
By JasonInMaine
June 10, 2007 9:48 PM | Link to this
Where oh where has Frenchy’s power gone?
By Greg O.
June 10, 2007 9:48 PM | Link to this
Jason - I understand your point about the bench right now without Chipper, but I’d propose keeping Escobar with the big club when Chipper comes back. I think that’d vastly improve the bench. Either Woodward or Orr have to go. I think a bench of Salty, Escobar, Diaz/Willie, and Orr/Woodward wouldn’t be that bad. But in addition to Escobar staying with the big club when Chipper comes back, I’d like to see Brayan Pena back up when/if Orr/Woodward gets the boot. That’d give Bobby Cox more flexibility to use Salty in pinch hitting situations and/or use him at first. And Pena adds another switch-hitting option.
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 9:50 PM | Link to this
It’s back to where it began. Instead of blowing things open last inning the game is tied.
Oh did I mention Woodward still sucks. He’s our best utilityless infielder we have. Orr is just plain useless.
By AMG
June 10, 2007 9:51 PM | Link to this
MEB … I agree on Soriano.
eric the elder … you can buy those tickets from the season ticket holders… I’ve done it before several times to get good seats.
Edgar has a hand contusion.
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 9:54 PM | Link to this
Somebody post a Sopranos report, it’s getting near the end. I don’t have HBO & don’t want to wait and have my brother-in-law take 3 hours to explain to me what happend in an hour & five minute episode.
By eric the elder
June 10, 2007 9:55 PM | Link to this
It has taken 5 innings for Joe Morgan to finally admit that the pitch was headed for Edgar’s face.
He also drools over Soriano for not making a fuss about being hit last night, conveniently ignoring the near confrontation on the mound as he was returning to the dugout.
By my count, Jon Miller has made 4 factually incorrect statements so far (such as losing track of the count). I hate it when ESPN gets these games.
By JasonInMaine
June 10, 2007 9:55 PM | Link to this
Greg,
I agree with moves you mentioned and they can only serve to improve the team.
Regards,
Jason
By N8
June 10, 2007 9:57 PM | Link to this
JasonInMaine
I hear ya, about Francoeur’s power. But you know what? I’ll take his slightly “better” approach of taking the ball the other way and knocking in runs.
Cubs are now up 3-2. Thanx woodward. Thanx Andruw.
Regardless of the outcome, or the runs that have been scored on Buddy the last two innings, he still deserves another start, IMO.
By Coach
June 10, 2007 9:59 PM | Link to this
alright , get Carlyle out of the game. He got tagged on every ball that was hit in the sixth.
By JasonInMaine
June 10, 2007 9:59 PM | Link to this
The starter gets tossed after 1 inning and we get to go against a taxed bullpen and we still only have 2 runs…come on offense…what the he!!
By eric the elder
June 10, 2007 10:00 PM | Link to this
AMG, thanks. I know it’s just where the mikes are, but the Cubs fans almost sound like they outnumber the Braves fans.
By Meanie
June 10, 2007 10:00 PM | Link to this
Shirley they won’t lose to the Cubs bullpen. And Shirley they’ll score more than two? Oh, and Shirley: Bring me a beer, wouldya?
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 10:03 PM | Link to this
Does anyone else think it’s a bad idea to let Buddy throw another inning? I know he had a short 6th, but he is getting a lot of pitches up in the zone.
By ernesto
June 10, 2007 10:04 PM | Link to this
How long are we going to carry Woodward? It’s not like he’s in a funk or has been hot and cold…he’s sucked like it was something to be proud of since day one. I mean when does he get the “Wilson”???
By brent a.
June 10, 2007 10:05 PM | Link to this
Steve Perry’s voice brings tears to my eyes … :)
By JasonInMaine
June 10, 2007 10:06 PM | Link to this
N8,
You are correct…Frenchy is still producing.
But, it says a lot about our team that Thor is still getting all the starts at 1B. The offense needs to wake the heck up.
Regards,
Jason
By eric the elder
June 10, 2007 10:07 PM | Link to this
Isn’t it getting a little late to let Buddy hit for himself when we’re behind? With 2 outs maybe, but 1 out?
Where’s Willie?
By N8
June 10, 2007 10:07 PM | Link to this
Scott Thorman’s swing makes Klesko’s swing look like Brett Butler slapping the ball around.
How does he NOT have back problems? Oh wait, judging by his infield range, maybe he DOES.
As pitiful as Woodward is (and he is pitiful), I will argue that Thorman’s presence on the team is more negative. He has ZERO range at 1B, he can’t HIT in the clutch, 3 of his 6 HR and 9 of his 25 RBI came in two games. Take those two games away (yeah, I know, you can’t do that, but…), and you have a guy that in the OTHER 168 AB’s, has 3 HR and 16 RBI.
Yikes, is an understatement. THAT is why I believe he hurts the team more than Woodward. Woodward only kills ONE RALLY per night. Thorman gets 3 or 4 shots a game at killing rallies.
Make no mistake. Thorman’s hurting this team more than Woodward is.
By ernesto
June 10, 2007 10:08 PM | Link to this
Sweeeeeeeet, here comes Woodward with a chance to tie the game…prove me wrong you waste of a uniform
By Braves Fan 79
June 10, 2007 10:09 PM | Link to this
O GOD>…..WOODWARDS UP AGAIN??????!!!! WHY BOBBY WHY!!!!!
By brent a.
June 10, 2007 10:10 PM | Link to this
don’t expect any Woodward movement until Chipper returns
just my take
By AMG
June 10, 2007 10:10 PM | Link to this
Woodward … Woodward… Woodward?
Why … Why … Why?
Good Grief.
By eric the elder
June 10, 2007 10:11 PM | Link to this
Why aren’t we pinch hitting for Woodward???
Move Escobar to short and Orr to 3rd.
Where’s Willie? Where’s McCann?
Bobby, look at the score board!!!
By Chad
June 10, 2007 10:11 PM | Link to this
Is there a way we can get rid of Woodward? I would prefer use Orr than Woodward since Woodward failed to score men in scoring postion TWICE!
By The Truth Hurts
June 10, 2007 10:11 PM | Link to this
Chris Woodward does a bad job of out avoidance.
By Greg O.
June 10, 2007 10:12 PM | Link to this
Playing Devil’s Advocate - Woodward put a good swing on that last line-out.
By Ron
June 10, 2007 10:12 PM | Link to this
Soprano ALERT:!!!!!!!!!!!!
UHHHHHHH what the Hell just happened at the end, was alot of suspense, did not show nothing when Meadow was running into the restaurant!!!!! Glad nobody got killed except Phil!!!
By journalist jimmy smith
June 10, 2007 10:13 PM | Link to this
soon, woodward’s b.a. will be below .200 (maybe tonight). twice woodward has failed with runners on and two outs. with all these dead arms and dead thumbs maybe woodward has a dead bat.
now, it will take a 3-run homer. they are playing right into bobby’s hands.
By N8
June 10, 2007 10:13 PM | Link to this
good call fastasballs.
Bobby’s apparently gonna COMPLETELY WASTE a great outing and pull a McGlinchy on him.
By chrisklob
June 10, 2007 10:14 PM | Link to this
N8, I agree with much of what you say but Woodward IMMEDIATELY proved you wrong about something. He’s killed two rallies tonight.
AND WHY IS BUDDY STILL IN THERE? Come on Bobby and Roger!
By whoo hoo
June 10, 2007 10:14 PM | Link to this
eric….ever been to a Cubs/Braves game? The Cubs fan usually DO outnumber the Braves fans
By Coach
June 10, 2007 10:15 PM | Link to this
Dear Cox , DID I NOT TELL YOU TO GET CARLYLE OUT OF THE FRIGGIN GAME ! Just sheer stubborness on the part of Bobby Cox !
By James Adams
June 10, 2007 10:15 PM | Link to this
Justice!! That was poetic justice for that BS cheap shot by Reteria. The Braves are the biggest bunch of babies. Wait, the home plate ump might throw Fontenot out of the game for hitting a fan with the ball!
By Berigan
June 10, 2007 10:15 PM | Link to this
Carlyle has pitched well enough, why is he still in after 2 hits? Trying to keep him from getting too confident?? Yates was warming up when we were batting, get him in already!!!
By JasonInMaine
June 10, 2007 10:16 PM | Link to this
Wow…hiw did we get so lucky to have woodward up again…seriously, he is an absolute bum. Period. Awful. Atrocious. Pitiful. I wish I could perform as bad at my job and keep it. He has to go when chipper comes back. Seriously, trade him for ANYTHING.
Well, the Braves are going to lose again. I don’t know what to say. I wish I had others unbridled optimism, but I don’t.
One more thing…I had a bad feeling when Bobby didn’t pinch hit for carlyle.
Regards,
Jason
By N8
June 10, 2007 10:16 PM | Link to this
Though I’ll add, if McBride and Paranto are the “other” two options to come into the game, Bobby might as well let Buddy finish the game.
By raykelsey
June 10, 2007 10:17 PM | Link to this
Chris Woodward is absolutely useless—what a joke. How many times this year has he flailed wildly at pitches during critical moments in the game? Bobby, uh…what in the hell are you thinking allowing him to step to the plate for a scoring chance? At least he hit this one. I’d rather Smoltz pinch hit. No joke. Good riddance to drift Woodard when Chipper returns.
By raykelsey
June 10, 2007 10:18 PM | Link to this
Chris Woodward is absolutely useless—what a joke. How many times this year has he flailed wildly at pitches during critical moments in the game? Bobby, uh…what in the hell are you thinking allowing him to step to the plate for a scoring chance? At least he hit this one. I’d rather Smoltz pinch hit. No joke. Good riddance to drift Woodward when Chipper returns.
By eric the elder
June 10, 2007 10:18 PM | Link to this
Man oh man oh man! Fastasballs is right, Buddy was getting up in the zone. But we let him hit in the 6th with only 1 out.
Then Kelly gets on and Escobar moves him over. What did Bobby expect? Let Buddy hit for himself so that if the top of the lineup gets on, we count on Woodward to bring them in?
Then Buddy, still up in the zone, gives up a homer to a guy who is shorter than my wife.
We’re being outmanaged in this one, boys.
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 10:19 PM | Link to this
Once again Woodward proves he’s useless to this team. When he’s finally cut maybe he can audition to be Chipper’s designated wiper when Chipper’s hands are immoblized.
Thanks Cox for leaving Carlyle in & ruining what little confidence the guy probably had, not to mention giving this game away. The whole damn blog knew he was out of gas last inning.
I’m at a loss for words from Cox’s DUMB decision to let Carlyle start the 7th & even DUMBER decision to leave him in after the HR to start it. Oh here he finally comes shuffling out to get him.
By AMG
June 10, 2007 10:20 PM | Link to this
JUST GOT AN IDEA!!!!
Let’s pay the Cubs to hit Woodward in the hand… problem solved.
By TennesseePaul
June 10, 2007 10:20 PM | Link to this
F#ckin Woodward blows. That’s what, about 4 runs he’s watched sit out there while he stunk it all up. This guy has no place on the team. None. He can’t hit. Can’t field. Can’t run. Can’t help anything anywhere. Send him packing.
By Berigan
June 10, 2007 10:21 PM | Link to this
eric the elder, Can’t use McCann, we might have a tie game, and Salty might get hurt, and well, we ** want to get a 3rd catcher up here someday soon. Might…..
By N8
June 10, 2007 10:23 PM | Link to this
I’d get ejected too, if I had to watch this team play up close. Oh wait. MOST of it is HIS fault.
By Braves Fan 79
June 10, 2007 10:23 PM | Link to this
Ahh why didnt Bobby pitchit for caryle in the bottom on the 6th..? i mean now hes probably gonna get taken out in the top of the 7th anyways…ok now hes out. Ahh this is painfull ….we had woodward batting in crucial situations TWICE and of course he didnt do anything. I mean if its the bottom of the 9th and were down by a run and woodward comes up to bat…u might as well just turn off your tv cause its game over! I think hes still playing for the mets…they probably sent him as a spy and are paying him on the side to suck even worse than he does when hes trying.
So JS: how come we had $ to blow on useless players like wilson, woodward, redmen….but yet we couldnt keep Ward as a pitchitter!? Or couldnt resign Glavine? Face it pple….the lack of bench players is KILLING the Braves this year!
By Crystal-ballboy
June 10, 2007 10:25 PM | Link to this
I see more Sopranos episodes in our futures.
By Bill
June 10, 2007 10:25 PM | Link to this
Buddy C. got off to a good start but he is not the answer. Pitching and clutch hitting is going to be the down fall of this team. I know they are just three and half games behind but I don’t think they will get any closer. I hope they do. Renteria is now hurt. You might as well mark Chipper off for rest of year. When he gets ready to play, he won’t stay healthy. His day’s are numbered as a full time player.
By TennesseePaul
June 10, 2007 10:25 PM | Link to this
Tonto is in now. This guy is the pitching equivalent of Woodward. If we get out of this inning with a 2 run differential we’re lucky.
By N8
June 10, 2007 10:26 PM | Link to this
*Coach
“Just sheer stubborness on the part of Bobby Cox !”
Don’t confuse stobborness for STUPIDITY.
I’m sure Paranto will do his best Kolb impersonation now and blow this thing WIDE OPEN.
He’s the “woodward” of the pitching staff, IMO.
By Chris Woodward
June 10, 2007 10:27 PM | Link to this
I suck.
By N8
June 10, 2007 10:28 PM | Link to this
eric
“We’re being outmanaged in this one, boys.”
One could make that arguement about EVERY game since 1991, when you’re discussing “in game” strategy.
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 10:30 PM | Link to this
Could Cox not tell Carlyle was done after the 6th? Let me guess Cox thought Carlyle had pitched well enough to win so he figured he would run him out there so the Braves could rally in the bottom half & get him the win he deserved. So now instead of needing just a run, it’s now two & it was lucky to ONLY be two.
I’m not one to run Cox up the flag pole like Robert, but he really deserves some criticism for tonight’s bonehead decision.
By Pete Orr
June 10, 2007 10:30 PM | Link to this
Me too.
By Memphis
June 10, 2007 10:30 PM | Link to this
I never like to complain or ridicule specific players, but everyone is right about Woodward. It is hard to be a terrible bench player, but I think Woodward has done that. Orr and Woodward on the bench along with Thorman starting everyday is a major weakness.
Prado would be a better fit then Woodward.
I also agree why not pinch hit for Buddy in the 6th. He gave you 6 good innings and you let him hit and then we saw what happened in the 7th.
If Renteria had to leave the game, why not let Willie play 3rd and move Escobar to short? A GOOD NIGHT FOR SECOND GUESSING.
By JasonInMaine
June 10, 2007 10:32 PM | Link to this
What a missed opportunity if we lose…we could have picked up a game on the entire division!!!
By knowitall
June 10, 2007 10:32 PM | Link to this
Ron
At first, I thought my dish went out. I mean Meadow runs in the diner and the screen goes blank. WTF? They did keep the suspense going until the very end though.
By N8
June 10, 2007 10:34 PM | Link to this
Maybe the Braves should put the initials WTP on their sleeves, for WARNING TRACK POWER.
Because that’s ALL we got right now.
By journalist jimmy smith
June 10, 2007 10:35 PM | Link to this
10 men left on base. yep, bobby is playing for the 3-run homer. well, what happens if 2 men get on, 2-out, and it is woodward’s turn? will woodward hit? wwbd? nice drives to the fence but we need runners. 3-run homer time.
By Greg O.
June 10, 2007 10:35 PM | Link to this
Let’s take it easy. Bobby leaving Carlyle (77 pitches before the 7th) in cost the Braves one run - on the first career home run hit by a guy who’s 5’8” 170 dripping wet. Take your hat off and give it to Fontenot and hope you can muster 2 runs with the final six outs.
By eric the elder
June 10, 2007 10:36 PM | Link to this
Berigan, yes, I understand all that, but I can’t buy all that “might” stuff. That’s like cancelling the game because it might rain.
The goal is to win games, and that means scoring runs when the opportunities present themselves.
By Meanie
June 10, 2007 10:38 PM | Link to this
While I agree with other bloggers about Woodward, it should be noted that at this point he is a third stringer in that he sits behind Edgar/Chipper and Escobar. Granted Escobar wasn’t on the roster but he is now and I expect him to remain with Woodward sent packing. Agreed with other bloggers about Pena as well. The minute he gets here in place of Orr or a pitcher then Salty/ McCann becomes your top pinch hitter with Harris/Diaz and Escobar in the fold as well. How many teams have a stronger bench than that?
I think the better question for tonight would be for Bobby. If Escobar is playing short, why isn’t Willie at third? Would anybody on the planet think Woodward is a better option IN THE THREE HOLE? Dammit!!
By GT
June 10, 2007 10:41 PM | Link to this
Get ready for a 2-6 homestand against under .500 teams. The Braves will also be under .500 soon. Only three quality starts by the rotation in that stretch. Coincidence? It doesn’t matter how many times the Mets lose, how many more games Chipper is in the dugout, how many more rallies Woodward kills, or how ridiculous Thorman looks at the plate. The Braves won’t be playing anyone in October because of their gigantic lack of starting pitching.
What’s most difficult to understand is why the organization failed to address this over the winter. Schurholz can take all the credit he wants for “fixing the bullpen” over the winter (even though Wickman was already here last year). While last year’s bullpen blew a lot of leads, they also weren’t exactly handed too many, either. And this year’s rotation looks even worse. The Braves’ failure to address the starting rotation is overwhelming everything else.
By JasonInMaine
June 10, 2007 10:41 PM | Link to this
We are awful right now. I keep hoping for one of those amazing runs we used to go on, but the bottom line is we just can’t. We don’t have the pitching or the offense to sustain one. We have been awful for a 30 game stretch.
Regards,
Jason
By eric the elder
June 10, 2007 10:42 PM | Link to this
Error by Woodward. Sweet.
By Dr. Blanco
June 10, 2007 10:42 PM | Link to this
That’s it. Joe Morgan is a freakin’ idiot. He just got done braying on about how it has to hurt Andruw’s feelings that of the “three stars” on the team (Smoltz and Chipper being the other two), that he is the only one that is “unsigned”. HE IS SIGNED - his contract is just ending this year. HE’S AT THE END OF A SIX-YEAR DEAL! Plus he’s got Boras as an agent. I guess Morgan is drawing a comparison with Smoltz and Chipper to insinuate that Andruw is unsigned because he’s not white. He needs to get on the phone with Terrance Moore so he’ll realize that Andruw doesn’t count in discussions of race or color because he’s not an African American. Quite the brain trust working or ESPN these days.
By N8
June 10, 2007 10:43 PM | Link to this
ROFLMFAO!
Keep going Woodward. You might get released before this game is over. LOL!
What a piece of sh!t.
By Chad
June 10, 2007 10:44 PM | Link to this
okay we need a roster move, asap before we go on road trip and that is to get rid of woodward..dang, i could had made that play at third base!
By chrisklob
June 10, 2007 10:45 PM | Link to this
Why don’t we put Woodward in at Pitcher so he can suck there too! He can’t hit and he can’t field. Why shouldn’t he be allowed to suck on the mound too!
By N8
June 10, 2007 10:46 PM | Link to this
Greg O.
Is “O” your middle initial? Because my guess is that your last name is Cox.
Hmmm. Chad Paranto, huh? WHY is he still on the 25 man roster again?
By Berigan
June 10, 2007 10:46 PM | Link to this
Someone has a Woodward Voodoo doll!!!!! We need to burn it ASP!!! That was a sure foul ball…damn….
By Pete Orr
June 10, 2007 10:46 PM | Link to this
How many ways can Woodward help the Cubs tonight?
By Ron
June 10, 2007 10:46 PM | Link to this
knowitall, Dude I thought my dish went out also, I was p**!!! I thought Tony was finished at the end when he was at the restaurant, when that guy was lookin at him!!! You think they will make more episodes?
By StingerSplash
June 10, 2007 10:47 PM | Link to this
The Chris Woodward Experiment is even worse than the Chris Gaines Project.
By Calvin
June 10, 2007 10:47 PM | Link to this
I have always said that Bobby Cox as a manager is overrated. I think managers period are overrated. There are times where Cox has over thought his position. This platoon thing he does is just one example. If we had Leyland as a manger, you think we would be 1 for 14 for World Series titles?
By JasonInMaine
June 10, 2007 10:48 PM | Link to this
Screw it…release Woodward tonight. Can he do anything? Man, why do I get so angry over this team? I struggled through a lot worse times, but man we are struggling!
Come on…get some freaking runs!!!!!
By whoo hoo
June 10, 2007 10:49 PM | Link to this
Eric now do you understand why there are more cubs fans than braves fans? Right now they are the only team the cubs can beat! Chuckle
By Ron
June 10, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this
Woodward redeemed himself on that double play
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this
Way to glove that ball Woodward, way to flash the leather. Why does JS continue to sign guys who are Independent leauge talent at best?
You know he will be up in another crucial situation with runner on. If Cox let’s him bat one more time with runners on he needs to be sent out to pasture.
By chrisklob
June 10, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this
Can Tony Soprano make Woodward disappear?
By N8
June 10, 2007 10:51 PM | Link to this
I am thoroughly convinced that Woodward IS Billy Bob Thornton.
Which really explains a lot, when you think about it.
By MEB
June 10, 2007 10:52 PM | Link to this
Seems like negativism is a cancer on the blog right now. Last I checked the game isn’t over. Hard not to be negative when we have to endure Woodward and now Paronto. These guys are major leaguers who should be contribuiting but are not. Blame the manager all you want but Bobby deserves some better play from his players.
Well now… appears that Paronto got out of a jam and Salty has a little better that warning track power. Sometimes you have to rely on a little faith.
GO BRAVES!!!
By cwk
June 10, 2007 10:54 PM | Link to this
thorman finally comes thru
By The Grinch
June 10, 2007 10:54 PM | Link to this
What do you mean it ended with Meadow running into the diner? She was here with me in my bedroom. Or maybe that was my favorite alternate ending.
Go Salty and Thorman!
By Greg O.
June 10, 2007 10:54 PM | Link to this
bases loaded, nobody out, paronto gets two ground balls and doesn’t allow a run to score… call me captain optimism, but i think that might spark a rally.
By N8
June 10, 2007 10:54 PM | Link to this
StingerSplash
“The Chris Woodward Experiment is even worse than the Chris Gaines Project.”
VERY nice post.
Sad thing is, I actually own that CD. (my wife’s a Garth fan)
By Braves Fan 79
June 10, 2007 10:55 PM | Link to this
YEAH THORMAN!! Anyone who thinks thorman is less usefull than woodward is a idiot! At least in Thorman we have a chance for a homer!
By Savannah Guy
June 10, 2007 10:55 PM | Link to this
If it’s not bad enough to be well on our way to losing 3 of 4…to the CUBS, but what really hurts is that we are getting mentally and physically beaten…it’s getting hard to watch.
Is it groundhog day or what? Thorman…Woodward…I just almost threw up in my mouth. Yuk.
Wait…bases loaded no out and Cubs don’t score and now Thorman gets a double…there may be joy in Mudville tonight after all…
By Dr. Blanco
June 10, 2007 10:56 PM | Link to this
And now the Excedrin “trivia” question, which tonight on ESPN was “who has the most career wins against John Smoltz. Answer was Pedro “Every ESPN anchor wants to blow me” Martinez.
My question: why have a trivia question when two teams are playing that makes an unflattering point about one of the (future Hall of Fame) aces for one of the teams? Why not something positive about someone on either team? I mean, what the hell does the fact that Pedro has the most career wins against Smoltz have to do with ANYTHING tonight?
Oh, and to clarify, my comments regarding Terrance Moore above were meant to be sarcastic. And I fervently hope that somehow we find a way to keep Andruw after this year, even if it is a sub-par year.
Thorman and Salty making it interesting in the 8th.
By chrisklob
June 10, 2007 10:56 PM | Link to this
Don’t worry about this rally Cubs fans. Woodward will be up soon to kill it.
By Stephen
June 10, 2007 10:56 PM | Link to this
The only reason i still have the TV on is that its High DEF….i HATE listening to these guys. Almost as bad as listening to Joe Buck and Mccarver
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 10:56 PM | Link to this
WILLIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!
By cwk
June 10, 2007 10:56 PM | Link to this
thats why my man bobby didnt place harris in the field for renteria…….. he saved him for a critical pinch hit
By Chop Chop
June 10, 2007 10:57 PM | Link to this
“One of the things that makes Bobby Cox such a good manager is that he’s so unpredictable.” - Joe Morgan
I’m guessing Joe doesn’t watch a lot of Braves games.
Even so, the Braves are rallying. Good to see.
By knowitall
June 10, 2007 10:58 PM | Link to this
Ron,
There has to be more to come. A movie or something maybe. You can’t end a great show like that.
By Interested Observer
June 10, 2007 10:58 PM | Link to this
Did Joe Morgan just say that Bobby Cox was unpredictable??
Has he seen any Braves games the past 15 years or so??
By Greg O.
June 10, 2007 10:59 PM | Link to this
N8,
how do you feel about paronto now? The O is in my last name, but I wish I was a member of a hall of fame manager’s family. It’s a damn shame so many people give Bobby a hard time. You don’t win over 2,000 games and rank in the top 5 all time being an idiot.
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 10:59 PM | Link to this
Come on Esobar!!! God if he stikes out Woodward is up again with them juiced.
By Chop Chop
June 10, 2007 11:00 PM | Link to this
(If this is a double post, my apologies…)
“One of the things that makes Bobby Cox such a good manager is that he’s so unpredictable.” - Joe Morgan
I’m guessing Joe doesn’t watch a lot of Braves games.
Even so, the Braves are rallying. Good to see.
By N8
June 10, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this
OK. You guys might get me to dislike Joe Morgan, yet.
Morgan just “The reason Bobby Cox is so successful, is because he’s so ‘unpredictable’.”
ARE YOU KIDDING ME???
If there was a book titled: “How to manage a MLB team as ‘by the book’ as you can do, WITHOUT being unpredictable”
They’d have a picture of Bobby on the cover.
Anybody STILL think that Harris shouldn’t be in the lineup everyday.
I have NO PROBLEM with the 25th man on a 25 man roster, being the “seldom used” insignificant player. EVERY team needs one of those. Dump Woodward, and let Orr be that “emergency” guy.
I also understand that a guy like Brayan Pena playing multiple positions. That WILL help.
THANK GOD the run scored on that DP. Because guess who’s up? LOL!
By MEB
June 10, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this
Cubs fans outnumbering Braves fans at the Ted is flat out incorrect. The Cubs do travel well and there are lots of them all over the country that like to identify with the loveable losers. If five percent of the crowd are Cubs fans I would be surprised.
GO BRAVES!!!
By chrisklob
June 10, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this
Wow, McCann is PH’ing WITH Salty in the game. God forbid Salty should get hurt! Oh the humanity!
By journalist jimmy smith
June 10, 2007 11:03 PM | Link to this
journalist predicted this. tie game and bobby is out of position players! out! out-managed - again. ouch! and now mccann bats for woodward …
if mccann gets on andruw is supposed to hit the 3-run homer. if andruw hits it journalist will apologize to bobbycox.
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 11:06 PM | Link to this
YYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
By N8
June 10, 2007 11:06 PM | Link to this
Greg O.
“how do you feel about paronto now?”*
Just great. He lowered his ERA from 6.86 to 6.58 tonight. Good for him.
“You don’t win over 2,000 games and rank in the top 5 all time being an idiot”
One can’t be considered “smart by association”, can they?
Because WITHOUT his association to his 3 HOF pitchers on his staff from 1993 to 2003, he’s BARELY over .500 in his managerial career.
Nice try though.
By Berigan
June 10, 2007 11:06 PM | Link to this
I love this game!!! Woodward could not have looked worse, then makes a good play to start a DP! Now it looks like the braves will blow an opportunity to have a big inning, right after the Cubs blew a beautiful chance as well. Damn Andruw, get your eyes checked, how could you swing at that??? Hey, we got the lead on a wild pitch!!!!!
By whoo hoo
June 10, 2007 11:07 PM | Link to this
meb I have been to the ted during braves/cubs and the fans complain how they are outnumbered. Its just one of those things you cant explain but you have to live with. Braves fans get complacent and cubs fan always hope.
By Greg O.
June 10, 2007 11:08 PM | Link to this
N8,
How about knocking Bobby for being predictable, taking about who’s coming up next, and then Bobby unpredictably sends McCann up to pinch hit. Admit it - you’ve got egg on your face.
By knowitall
June 10, 2007 11:09 PM | Link to this
Grinch
That’s an idea. I’ll just pretend like Meadow was running into my bedroom when the show ended.
By eric the elder
June 10, 2007 11:10 PM | Link to this
I know Wicky is the closer, but does anyone else wish we were seeing Soriano here?
By The Grinch
June 10, 2007 11:13 PM | Link to this
Knowitall, if she came from mine first she wouldn’t have been running…
Go Buffalo Bob!
By N8
June 10, 2007 11:13 PM | Link to this
Greg O.
Besides, what does winning over 2000 games have to do with being ranked in the Top 5 Idiots of all time?
By JasonInMaine
June 10, 2007 11:16 PM | Link to this
Okay, I was wrong and will gladly admit it!!! Man, we squeaked this one out!!!
By MBATL
June 10, 2007 11:17 PM | Link to this
Sorry guys, but a pretty well managed game by Cox. A lot of whining wasted tonight.
Good job by Carlyle. Another great job by the bullpen.
Hey, maybe we’ll lose on Tuesday.
By chipdip
June 10, 2007 11:17 PM | Link to this
WORLD SERIES BOUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!UP THE IRONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!MOTORHEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By N8
June 10, 2007 11:17 PM | Link to this
Greg O.
“How about knocking Bobby for being predictable, taking about who’s coming up next, and then Bobby unpredictably sends McCann up to pinch hit. Admit it - you’ve got egg on your face.”
Uh. Nope. “Unpredictable” would’ve been pinch-hitting McCann for Woodward with the game on the line THE FIRST OF THE THREE TIMES Woodward was due up.
EVEN Bobby isn’t stupid enough to let him (Woodward) bat 3 times in those situations in one game.
Egg on my face. LOL!
Again. Nice try.
By Braveheart
June 10, 2007 11:17 PM | Link to this
Here’s a question for Joe Morgan. If it is not right in his opinion that Smoltz and Chipper and McCann have contracts but Andruw does not, then was it right that Maddux and Glavine and Javy and Giles and Sheffield and Drew and Millwood did not get contracts because Andruw and Chipper had about a third of the team’s $80 mil payroll tied up in them? Can’t have it both ways Joe and maybe you should understand a little more about the team before you go spouting off in such an uninformed fashion. Smoltz and McCann and Chipper all also have relatively cheap contracts for players of their caliber. Andruw on the other hand has Boras and demands fair market value.
God, I love how Skip announces great moments. That wild pitch call by Skip was so good and exciting. Alot of people don’t like SKip but I love the guy.
Also, gotta give kudos to KC who loved Willie Harris. He’s played great. KC kept saying that he could end up stealing us a late inning run that would win a game when he was demanding Willie be on the team. Well, it just happened. Gets a big hit and then steals second which forces the walk to KJ which loads the bases. The groundout scores the tying run. Willie is then standing on third because he stole second and is then able to score on the wild pitch because his wheels got him over to third and because his wheels can get him from third to home on a wild pitch. That is something that no perusal of outavoidance and OPS charts can ever foresee. That also negates any argument that stolen bases will not steal you a few wins and runs a season.
By TennesseePaul
June 10, 2007 11:17 PM | Link to this
GO BRAVES
Won despite the best efforts of Woodward and Tonto. What a frickin game! Down right incredible.
2.5 games back.
By Greg O.
June 10, 2007 11:18 PM | Link to this
N8, That’s priceless. Smart by association. 14 straight division titles, unprecedented in modern sports, but he just had the pitching - that’s all. Just curious, how do you feel about Schuerholtz?
Anyway, to everybody else, great job forecasting that would-be loss and giving no credit to the braves and their coaching staff. Too bad everybody couldn’t be so perfect as all of you.
By MEB
June 10, 2007 11:19 PM | Link to this
whoo hoo… I’ve been to lots of games at the Ted with the Cubs, Cardinals, Mets, and Red Sox and their fans are great and they make lots of noise. Especially the Red Sox. Braves fans tend to be fairly docile at home but on the road the Braves fans are some of the best.
BRAVES WIN, BRAVES WIN!!!
By Ron
June 10, 2007 11:19 PM | Link to this
Thats what I am talkin about!!! Salty came through, Thor came through, Willie came through, BC made a great move in bringin in McCann!!! Great job all around!!!
By StingerSplash
June 10, 2007 11:19 PM | Link to this
N8, My condolences on your wife’s musical taste. Could be worse. Could be Randy Travis. But let’s not forget that after stranding five runners, Mr. Woodward returned to his usual position on the bench, removing splinters from his hindquarters. And for those who decided to watch and listen to Joe and Jon, also my condolences. As an analyst, Joe Morgan swings and misses more than he did as a member of the Big Red Machine. I honestly don’t think he watches the game he’s at or any other games at all during the rest of the week.
By Coach
June 10, 2007 11:19 PM | Link to this
The Cubs leave the bases loaded with nobody out and fail to score .Then Dempster implodes and Cox gets off the hook. U-N-B-E-L-I-E-V-A-B-L-E !
By Pete Orr
June 10, 2007 11:20 PM | Link to this
nope. way to go wicky!
By JasonInMaine
June 10, 2007 11:20 PM | Link to this
And this just in…Salty is pretty good
By MP
June 10, 2007 11:22 PM | Link to this
Another typical Cub game.
By Berigan
June 10, 2007 11:22 PM | Link to this
You guys are nothing but a bunch of Gloomy Gus’s!!! I knew all along we would win this game, leaving in Carlyle too long, using every player on your bench, oh, I saw this from the first pitch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;) ,;) ;) ;) v;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 11:23 PM | Link to this
Great Win! Quite a strange game, but a good ending. They won tonight’s game despite Cox’s decision to leave Carlyle in the game to start the 7th & Woodward’s less than average play. Earlier in the week the Braves lose this game by 5.
The players wanted this game bad & they got it. Thor even contibuted!
2 1/2 back of the Muts. Unreal when you think about the past week. Still lot’s of holes in the team that needs filling. At least for now motivation, moxy, fire, energy & grit are not needed.
By knowitall
June 10, 2007 11:24 PM | Link to this
Grinch,
Now that the show’s over hopefully she’ll want to move on and play a riskier role. You know, one that requires some nudity.
By Chop Chop
June 10, 2007 11:24 PM | Link to this
Well, when matched with superior ineptitude from the North Siders, the Braves could not help but win tonight.
By eric the elder
June 10, 2007 11:25 PM | Link to this
I want to disassociate myself from the flare up of Bobby bashing. I said that I thought we were poorly managed in the 6th and 7th innings. Still do, but that’s all. The rest of you guys can argue about BC over his career.
By A-ville Ranger
June 10, 2007 11:28 PM | Link to this
Good tough win tonight.Carlyle and the pen gave us a chance to win.The magic number in today’s game is four.Hold the other side to that score and you have a better than 50% chance to win on a given night(or day).Hell’s tails I’m ready to see what Hernandez can do.I bet he’d be willing to drive himself down from Richmond if BC would pay for the gas.I’m going to do a short soap box speech.How any Braves fan could feel good about Glavine getting shellaced is beyond me.Told you it would be short.
By Greg O.
June 10, 2007 11:28 PM | Link to this
N8,
It, indeed, would’ve been unpredictable to pinch hit with McCann the first three times, but it also would’ve been something else - STUPID. In the bottom of the eighth, it’s both unpredictable and a calculated risk. Earlier in the game, you’re risking your back-up catching option with two, three, or four innings left in the game. In a tie game with a runner in scoring position, it’s a calculated risk that your big bat off the bench could get a base hit and you won’t need another catcher with the go-ahead run and a save from Wickman. Whether you agree with it or not, IT WORKED. Whether you agree with tonight’s moves or not, THEY WORKED. So, give Bobby some credit for the win. And don’t underestimate the possibility that he had an idea the Cubs would have to attempt a two-inning save with Dempster, obviously a risky proposition.
By ernesto
June 10, 2007 11:30 PM | Link to this
Where is it written in stone that your catcher situation has to be 4days 1 day. I think Brian could use a little break, plus we extend his career after signing him to a 6 year deal by going 3 days 2 days. We ahve two good catchers why fight it…let the other one be our pinch hitter then get an emergency catcher (orr) or a catcher who can emergency infield (pena)…it makes us a better club.
If nothing else, tonight, with BC putting BMac in for Woodward, even though we dint’ have much left on the bench, shows the Bravos no longer think Woodward is the splendid splniter…morelike the wonderful whiffer…the hearty harmless pop-up, the “why look it’s another’ weak ground out
By journalist jimmy smith
June 10, 2007 11:31 PM | Link to this
whoa! dempster gave us one. thank dempster for putting the cubs in the dumpster.
By N8
June 10, 2007 11:32 PM | Link to this
Greg O.
“N8, That’s priceless. Smart by association. 14 straight division titles, unprecedented in modern sports, but he just had the pitching - that’s all.”
About two weeks ago, I posted the “splits” of Bobby’s managerial record “Pre-Big 3” and “Post-Big 3”. The numbers don’t lie.
If you’d like me to find them and post them again, let me know. I’m not (nor have I ever said) that he SUCKS as a manager. I have often stated that he is a FANTASTIC manager of “personalities” and the grind of a 162 game schedule. NOBODY can argue with that. But he is not even close to being near or at the top of “ingame strategy”.
Ask DOB if he had one 7 game series to win, and could choose his manager between Bobby and Leyland, who he would take?
“Just curious, how do you feel about Schuerholtz?”
His best work has come since Maddux left. I think he’s done a VERY GOOD job of keeping us close with the payroll going down and having to be a little more creative than in years past, when HE TOO had 3 HOF pitchers in his rotation of the team he oversees.
Let’s not forget that Bobby’s GM’ing is WAY MORE responsible for the 14 year run than JS’s is/was.
Bobby made the trade for Smoltz. Bobby drafted Avery. Bobby Drafted Justice. Bobby Drafted Gant. Bobby drafted Chipper.
What “big” moves has JS done? Signed Bream, and TP. VERY good moves, that fast-tracked the inevitable success of this team.
Signed Greg Maddux. Does he REALLY deserve the genius tag for that one? Traded Melvin Nieves and a couple other “has beens/never were gonna be’s” for McGriff? NO BRAINER. Traded Tarasco for Grissom? Tough call there, huh?
Like I said. JS is a good GM, who has NEVER been a big free agent guy, other than the OBVIOUS upgrades, and ultimately those players have to WANT to play in Atlanta, right? Who DIDN’T want to play in Atlanta in the 90’s? He’s done a fine job drafting in the last 5-6 years, as the current roster shows.
Hope that clarifies it for you.
By True Braves Fan
June 10, 2007 11:32 PM | Link to this
DO WE HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL CHIPPER IS READY BEFORE WE RELEASE WOODWARD????
By eric the elder
June 10, 2007 11:36 PM | Link to this
It’s possible to make poor decisions and still get good results.
It’s possible to be pessimistic and be pleasantly surprised.
The only certainty is that hindsight is never wrong.
By The Grinch
June 10, 2007 11:37 PM | Link to this
Knowitall; good call. Of course, I imagine she’s been pretty well compensated by HBO for her role to this point; she’d have to do it because she wanted to (which would of course, make it more exciting).
Coming from someone who’s been believing all along (in the TEAM), this win had very, very little to do with Cox. He flunks his first four major decisions in the game and the fifth one (which was the obvious move for anyone to make) pays off and you guys act like he just beat a Russian in chess. Umm, no. But he did his charismatic thing which he’s good at, our boys came through when it mattered, and it was an enjoyable game to say the least.
By Meanie
June 10, 2007 11:37 PM | Link to this
Nate your posts regarding Cox’s winning percentage border on Robertisms. I throw things at my set, first guess and second guess his decisions all the time. I remember the Padres NLCS, Charlie Leibrandt in Game 6, and many other examples of Bobby mismanaging the game, at least from my viewpoint. That said, your posting of his win % without the Big Three only support his greatness. Tell you what, I’m not willing to do it but perhaps Shaun or someone will research to see how many managers have .500 or better records over 15 or more seasons. Then we should figure out which years said managers had their most talented pitching, then remove those seasons. Think about it dude. You are basically removing Bobby’s 14 BEST SEASONS yet he still has a winning record.
Let that sink in for a minute.
Now name me ONE other manager or coach in any pro sport who could make that claim. Take out the top 14 seasons and still play winning ball. Wow.
Never mind the fact that seemingly every player on his team or otherwise rates the guy as one of the best to play for. Sorry to be blunt dude (not in my nature, as you know) but these stats don’t support your point as much as they contradict it.
By N8
June 10, 2007 11:38 PM | Link to this
Greg O.
Good points in your 11:28. The part that’s getting forgotten in all of this is that for the LAST TWO YEARS, Orr has been labeled the “emergency” catcher. Why can’t he STILL be that guy? I’ll assume that Pena is coming up tomorrow and THAT ISSUE will be a dead one.
But I’ll give you this question, which is serious (no sarcasm…..seriously).
If Salty is catching, McCann pinch hits early in the game, and Salty get’s hurt (or vice versa - withc McCann getting hurt after Salty pinch hits), what’s the BIGGER problem?
What we do the rest of that game?
Or the fact that 1 of our 2 better hitters just got hurt?
Then NEXT DAYS GAME has the same effect, either way. Since when, has Bobby looked at the “smaller” picture of one game at a time? Is he worried about a person “embarrassing themselves” and costing the team a win? Oh, you mean like Woodward and Thorman do on a nightly basis?
By Braveheart
June 10, 2007 11:39 PM | Link to this
The magic number is 104!
By MBATL
June 10, 2007 11:41 PM | Link to this
N8, just for the record, the “research” you did, taking away Bobby’s best 11 years (that is, taking out the years the big three were in the rotation) left Bobby with a .516 winning pct (still in the top 50 alltime, and better than Leyland or Pinata).
Then, you came back and admitted you screwed up… that the real winning pct without the big three was more like .523. I didn’t look up where that would put Bobby, but I’m guessing top 30 or so.
So, you take away, what, 12 of a guy’s best years, and he’s still among the best all time… and that’s a criticism?
By N8
June 10, 2007 11:41 PM | Link to this
journalist jimmy smith
“whoa! dempster gave us one. thank dempster for putting the cubs in the dumpster”
What do yo mean? This victory is TOTALLY due to Bobby’s good strategy.
By AMG
June 10, 2007 11:42 PM | Link to this
I love this game. It can drive you crazy but it’s so fun.
Now I am going to go take a few antiacids and go to sleep.
By Ron
June 10, 2007 11:43 PM | Link to this
N8, Dude I suppose you think that Joe Torre is an idiot also? He has Jeter(Hall of Famer), Rivera(Hall of Famer), Petite(Second most wins in the playoffs, and a very good pitcher), Clemens(Hall of Famer), A constant 200 Million Payroll since 2002!!! yeah I know he has 4 rings, but with that team, anybody could win 3 straight championships, do you realize who played for those teams!!! Back in 91 that baserunning blunder cost us the Championship(I suppose you blame him for that too), 96(He put his DAMN closer in the game to get Leyritz out and he through him a Damn hanger, I suppose you blame Cox for throwin a Hanger too), 2002(Tom Glavine was horrendous, that was Cox fault also I suppose), 2003(Those damn Cubs choked at the wrong time, the Cubs were better than every team in the playoffs, and they choked against the Marlins, and we were better than the Marlins, Cox choked in that series also I suppose)!!! Yes BC sometimes leaves me scratching my head, but he has done his best, and it is his fault I guess that the Yankees had CLUTCH players on their team, and when we needed Clutch Hits they would never come!!! OH YEAH have you seen Glavine and Maddux Postseason Numbers? Not too good, OH YEAH I GUESS THAT IS THE DONKS FAULT TOO!!!!!
By Drummerdad
June 10, 2007 11:44 PM | Link to this
This just in: John Miller was seen sobbing and close to a nervous breakdown after the Cubs blow a 2 run lead to the Braves. Joe Morgan was there trying to comfort Miller assuring him that the Braves will lose again.
By Braves Fan 79
June 10, 2007 11:44 PM | Link to this
We won tonight….but i still HATE WOODWARD and would rather see a pitcher pitchit than him! Someone out of the stands….ANYONE! How about the spurs putting the beat down on the cavs tonight….i told everyone james is overhyped and cant shoot a jumpshot…and the cavs dont have a chance!
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 11:45 PM | Link to this
If Chipper is back by Tuesday it will be a lift for the team. I doubt he will be raking like he was prior to going on the DL. Then again I recall several times the past few years when he came off the DL, the first game back at the plate was huge for him. A homer in one for sure, maybe more.
I think Cox screwed up when he left Carlyle in for the 7th. Edgar leaving the game was unexpected. I think a lefty was on the mound at the time or Willie probably gets the call.
Cox is a good manager over a 162 game schedule. He’s not the great strategist for a playoff series in my opinion. As far as being a “players” manager he is the best, but being one gets him in trouble on occasion as we saw tonight with Carlyle & Woodward.
By Train Wreck Bystander
June 10, 2007 11:49 PM | Link to this
Well I am going to pick on BC a bit. I understand pinch-running with Chuck James to save Pete Orr for extra innings… but then why do you put Pete Orr in the lineup in the top of the 9th in a 1-run game? To me, that just didn’t make sense.
But anyways, great win tonight!
By Drummerdad
June 10, 2007 11:55 PM | Link to this
Dempster would have been safer if he had thrown that pitch to Andruw down the middle of the plate. Andruw should go home and work on his prayer life tonight. To the Braves credit they did earn the right to win the game even if the victory was a gift.
By Savannah Guy
June 10, 2007 11:55 PM | Link to this
Thorman hits a double, Woodward avoids a rally-killing out (by having McCann pinch hit for him), Andruw drives (well, traffic directs) the winning run. And Wicky did what Wicky does. There is joy in Mudville.
PS: Unexpectedly, this series had an almost playoff atmosphere. One team struggling and one team finding a groove. Cubs played well.
On another subject: Contrary to popular belief and the musings of ESPN commentators, I think it only “seems” that the Cubs have so many fans at each game in stadiums across the country. There are a lot of non-baseball folks that show up for their only game of the year to loudly cheer for a perinneal loser. It’s an event…a spectacle. They like the C cap as an “against the grain” fashion statement and the underdog position suits them just fine. That’s fair…and understandable.
By fastasballs
June 10, 2007 11:56 PM | Link to this
Other than the 7th Carlyle pitched a damn good game. Hell, usually our fifth starter would have given up 3 runs before the 2nd was over. I just hope his confidence was not shaken by the 7th, probably not since he is not a young rookie.
By N8
June 10, 2007 11:58 PM | Link to this
Meanie
“Think about it dude. You are basically removing Bobby’s 14 BEST SEASONS yet he still has a winning record.”
I hear what you are saying. BUT NO. That’s NOT what I’m saying.
It’s NOT all 14 years. 2 of those years he had Glavine Smoltz, Avery and Leibrant (no Maddux). The “Big Three” were only together for 10 years.
From 1993 to 2002: 952 Wins & 600 losses (.613 winning percentage) ALL 10 years were above .500
Before 1993 & After 2002: 1253 Wins & 1115 losses. (.529 winning percentage) SEVEN of the 15 seasons were above .500 (and 1 of those “above .500” seasons was an 81-80 record). This season is NOT factored into the abvoe .500 seasons.
You talk about letting a fact SINK IN to me? How about this. WITHOUT the “Big-3” Bobby is 138 games over .500 in 15 seasons. In 1998 ALONE the Braves were 50 games over .500!!!
I didn’t make the numbers up guys. They are what they are.
Like I have said many times, Bobby does a good jobe “managing” the egos, and the grind of a 162 schedule.
But name me ONE manager that wouldn’t have been close to that 952-600 record from 1993 to 2002 with Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine on theire pitching staffs?
Let me know when you find one.
Good luck.
By scribe
June 10, 2007 11:59 PM | Link to this
I am so sick of ESPN announcers Joe Morgan and Jon Miller. They have been anti-Atlanta since the Braves kicked the Giants tail in the early 90’s. They give the Braves no credit and are out of touch with baseball today
By Bigboi
June 10, 2007 11:59 PM | Link to this
is there anyway we can get Willie Harris more playing time?
By Memphis
June 10, 2007 11:59 PM | Link to this
Could anyone that had TIVO lip-read the conversation between Bobby, Terry Pendleton, and Willie Harris right after he scored? I couldn’t tell what was said.
By MEB
June 11, 2007 12:02 AM | Link to this
Good night Braves bloggers and y’all should sleep well after another victory tonight. Don’t stay up too late debating Bobby’s decisions and the abilities of some of our dead wood.
GO BRAVES!!!
By Ron
June 11, 2007 12:03 AM | Link to this
N8, Dude since you like those big 3 starters win% in the Regular Season, add it up and see what it is in the Postseason!!! Yes I know that it will be still a 500 win%, mainly because of Smoltz, but Glavine and Maddux did not pitch very good in the playoffs, and yes I still remember Glavine in game6 of the 95 World Series, but Glavine and Maddux were basically non existant in the playoffs!!! You cant have it one way and not mention the playoff record, get the facts together dude!!!
By Cubs fan
June 11, 2007 12:04 AM | Link to this
What a bunch of crap and what hypocrites the Braves fans must be. You’re mad at Lilly for going after Renteria tonight, but it was okay for Hudson to plunk Soriano last night. If Lilly should have been tossed tonight, then Hudson should have been gone 1st thing last night.
By Greg O.
June 11, 2007 12:07 AM | Link to this
N8,
Split stats aren’t necessary to know that the Braves have won less in the post-big 3 era. They haven’t won a play-off series (in fact I’ll blame one of the big 3, Tom Glavine, for the 2002 NLDS loss to the Giants) and the streak was snapped. Everybody knows that the big 3 were a huge part of the wins that Bobby’s accumulated. By nature, the manager can’t win without talent. But I still think you can’t win over 2,000 games without being able to manage both games and personalities. But you’re still all over the map - you’ve said he doesn’t suck, but he is a top 5 idiot. I know that’s a play on my words, but you still said it and it’s out of line.
I also think it’s tough to take anything away from Bobby simply because he made a great deal to get Smoltz and JS made other great deals. (And, by the way, JS doesn’t draft players - people like Paul Snyder and Roy Clark have led those efforts after JS has realized the importance of scouting and delegating the responsibilities and money to those who’ve seen the players with their own eyes several times.)
Just to name another “big” move that JS has made, getting Hudson for a Nieves-like big prospect who never panned out, Dan Meyer, and one-year wonder Charles Thomas, is pretty big. Though Hudson hasn’t been the ace he was supposed to be, you can’t argue that he’s been a steal for what the Braves gave up. And to look at it from another perspective, he’s made the no-brainer moves, but what patently bad trades has he made? I’m sure there’s one or two out there, but the good ones clearly outweigh the bad.
In the post-Ted Turner Era, JS hasn’t been a big name free agent guy. And the last few years of low-priced free agent signings have flopped (Mondesi, Jordan, Redman, Wilson, Woodward, etc.), previous nobodies have become solid contributors (Kerry Ligtenberg, John Burkett, Chris Hammond - obviously all pitchers and credit also goes to Leo Mazzone. But that’s just another mark of a great GM - surrounding himself with great people and letting them do their jobs). He’s been active in the trade market, as well, with even the smallest deals (i.e. Matt Diaz for Ricardo Rodriguez) producing results.
More than anything, I’d just say that it isn’t right that you belittle what Bobby and JS have done. Go ahead and maintain your stance that they’ve been blessed with talent and, at one time, the budget to sign guys like Greg Maddux. But they’ve made the deals and coaching moves that have produced wins. You can’t take that away.
By VandyBrave
June 11, 2007 12:08 AM | Link to this
No More Woodward. Never again.
By fastasballs
June 11, 2007 12:09 AM | Link to this
Go read the blog Cubs Fan. Lilly should not have been kicked out nor Hudson. We fully expected retaliation tonight, blame the home plate ump & ESPN for micing him up. He had to show the nation how in “control” of the game he was.
By Meanie
June 11, 2007 12:10 AM | Link to this
OK then…
Find a manager that has a .500 record after removing the top 10 seasons. Your point gets no better. What is Leyland’s record without his top 10? I know he’s had some rough ones. La Russa? Stengel? Durocher? Red Auerbach? Don Shula? Chuck Noll? Seriously, I’d love to know what some of these guys records would be without their Top 10 seasons.
Tell you what, that Chuck Noll wasn’ $hit without the Big Three Bradshaw, Swann, and Stallworth. Won those four Super Bowls strictly on his strategic decisions too.
By Ron
June 11, 2007 12:12 AM | Link to this
N8, Dude got a question for you, do you think that BC has had a better career as a manager or Omar Minaya has been a GM(that includes the Expos)? I know one has to do with a Manager and the other has to do with a GM, but trying to figure out where you stand at!!!!!!!
By MBATL
June 11, 2007 12:13 AM | Link to this
Bobby good, Bobby bad. What gets me is how supposed baseball fans give up on a 2-run game in the 7th inning.
By Drummerdad
June 11, 2007 12:17 AM | Link to this
Cubs fan, Watching your guy get tossed like would be frustrating. I’m betting that Lilly said something that pushed the ump over the edge. Lilly’s pitch was probably retaliation for last night. After that, all Lilly had to do was say the wrong thing at the wrong time. That’s just baseball. Whatever you think of us, I bet that was the case.
By N8
June 11, 2007 12:23 AM | Link to this
Ron
“N8, Dude since you like those big 3 starters win% in the Regular Season, add it up and see what it is in the Postseason!!! Yes I know that it will be still a 500 win%, mainly because of Smoltz, but Glavine and Maddux did not pitch very good in the playoffs, and yes I still remember Glavine in game6 of the 95 World Series, but Glavine and Maddux were basically non existant in the playoffs!!! You cant have it one way and not mention the playoff record, get the facts together dude!!!”
Get WHAT facts together. I’m not even TALKING about the playoffs? Bobby has made some very bad decisions in the post-season. NO DENYING IT.
But I have ALWAYS held the players in higher regards of “choking” in the playoffs over Bobby. I, unlike, Robert, DO NOT think another manager wins more World Series titles than Bobby did. Those pitcher were NEVER built (other than Smoltz) to dominate in October. Bobby’s lineups were NEVER built to hit off of good pitching.
I’ve said it before, the ONLY team we ever beat in the WS was the only other team that used the Hack-N-Jack philosophy more than we did. They were Absolutely LOST against Maddux in Game 1, and Glavine in Game 6. If not for a hanging Jim Poole slider and a fired up “I better walk the walk, since I talkied the talk” David Justice (remember he RIPPED the Atlanta fans after playing 3 straight nights in Clevland with loud obnoxious “into it” fans), we probably lose that WS, as well. But we didn’t.
Bobby didn’t hang the pitch Leibrandt threw to Puckett. But he put him in there to face him.
Bobby didn’t give up the HR to Sprague in 92.
Bobby didn’t strike out against Schilling in 93.
Bobby didn’t hang the slider to Leyritz in 96. Bobby didn’t “not protect a 6-0 lead earlier in that game. But he left Denny Neagle in too long, and Neagle did the above.
Bobby wasn’t calling EVERY Livian pitch a strike in 1997, but he surely didn’t do anything “in game” to convince his players to adjust to it. He just “backed them up” when the cried about it for the next days game.
Bobby didn’t blow the saves in 98 against SD, but he decided to overuse Ligtenburg down the stretch.
I’ll stop there. Because after that, I don’t think we were the best team in the post-season. So can’t really complain about losing.
In short (sort of LOL!), Bobby lived and died by the “Big-3”. Lived to prosper from April to September with stellar seasons. Then died in the post season when Maddux and Glavine failed to perform at the level we (and they) were accustomed to.
I have NEVER blamed ALL of the post season failures on Bobby. The players win and the players lose.
That doesn’t mean that the guys don’t love Bobby. I’m sure they do.
But when Smoltz was the closer, and about as “done deal” as closers got this side of Eric Gagne, was Bobby a genius for “continuing” to use Smoltz in the closers role and keep trotting him out there night after night? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
However, one could argue that Bobby wasn’t very smart, doing the same with Reitsma last year, or Kolb the year before, don’t you think?
Listen. I’ll never just flat out (other than in the heat of the moment), say OVERALL Bobby is an idiot. I will, however, point out decisions that I don’t like. And flat out REFUSE to give him ALL the credit when Maddux, Smoltz and Glavine were on his pitching staffs. I’d call him fortunate and privelaged, not genius.
By mr baseball
June 11, 2007 12:24 AM | Link to this
Some of you should feel pretty embarrassed about your in game posts. And those of you exulting over the victory, please keep in mind that the two people most responsible for the outcome didn’t even play in the game.
The psychic ump who tossed Lilly was most responsible for the Braves’ win, followed by Jason Marquis, whose stellar work Saturday left the Cubs shorthanded in the bullpen,
Cox made several suspect moves during the game, among them the decision to send up McCann in the 8th. Not because the Braves would have been left with only 1 catcher, but the 90 percent likelihood that Dempster was going to walk him and take his chances with Andruw or Francouer. Thanks to Dempster slipping & Barrett failing to block the pitch, the Braves won. Not because of anything Bobby did. About the only think he did right was hold Harris until a key spot, and he came through.
Props to portly Paronto for getting out of the bases loaded, no out jam, and a rare good word for Woodward for starting the DP that inning.
By Greg O.
June 11, 2007 12:25 AM | Link to this
N8,
Forgot to give my opinion in the Jim Leyland debate - I’d still take Bobby. He was 2-0 in the 91 and 92 NLCS match-ups and Leyland took the 97 series - but there’s the Eric Gregg factor and let’s also give some credit to the Marlins’ rotation and great rent-a-line-up.
Follow-up question - Leyland or the active guy ahead of Bobby on the all-time wins list, Tony LaRussa? (Let’s hope you pick up on the obvious recent answer to that one)
And with regards to the McCann/Salty question, it’s clearly that one of our better hitters went down. It’s simple math - one game versus the number of games the injured player is out. That being said, that isn’t to say that you can’t win without one of them. But being that I answered “Not enough offense” the poll question on the ajc braves homepage, I’d say losing a hitter like McCann or Salty for more than one game would hurt more than the in-game ramifications.
The other thing to consider is that, at this time, the Braves can/will play only one of them at a time. Salty’s played only one or two innings at first, so you can assume that you’d be losing, at most, the amount of at-bats in a full-game played plus one pinch hitting appearance. The one at bat could be in big spots (i.e. McCann’s tonight) but generally, I’d say losing one of them for more than one game would be more costly than the lone in-game issue.
By geauxbraves2000
June 11, 2007 12:27 AM | Link to this
My wife is a Cubs fan, plus that and living in IL, I to am a Cubs fan. But first and foremost I am a die hard Braves fan.
That being said, Soriano, when he hits a homerun, he needs to stop admiring them, and stop walking to 1st base, one thing I do not like is a showboat (See Griffey Jr, Bonds) Next game, Hudson plunked him. Hmm.
Secondly, I was expecting retaliation tonight, and the Braves got it. I however do not think Lilly should have been tossed from the game. That was poor game management IMO, the warnings should have been issued and let the game continue.
Thirdly, awesome come back tonight. The Braves were able to pick up a game on every team in the East, WTG!
Nite all!
Geaux Braves!!
By Greg O.
June 11, 2007 12:28 AM | Link to this
MBATL,
Amen to your 12:13. I obviously did not give up in the 7th and I’ll maintain my baseball acumen… haha.
By Bob, Journalist
June 11, 2007 12:28 AM | Link to this
Braves Fan 79, James may be overpaid but he’s young and not that bad as a 4th starter when he goes more that 5 innings.
I know he gave up 4 but I thought Buddy did well, regardless of the numbers … he’s got something I like … Cato, I too like Soriano.
I wonder if Bobby believes Diaz is such a liability at first, relative to Scott, that he’s afraid to play him there … regardless of Scott’s two hits tonight, it would be good to see both Willie and Matt playing in the same game.
Miller and Morgan outmanaged by Cox, can you imagine that …
By Greg O.
June 11, 2007 12:37 AM | Link to this
Mr. Baseball,
Couldn’t disagree much more with you. Sure, credit Dempster and Barrett with helping in the win on the passed ball, but here’s a hypothetical for you:
If Lilly wasn’t ejected, threw seven innings, allowed two runs on nine hits and a walk, and proceeded to hand the ball to arguably your best reliever (because he’s your manager’s choice as closer), how would you feel about that eighth inning being a Cubs fan/team member/coach?
By Greg O.
June 11, 2007 12:45 AM | Link to this
Mr. Baseball,
Another detail to add to the scenario - your closer, coming on in the eighth, had the last two games off - obviously giving him a fresh arm (no being overworked claim available).
By fastasballs
June 11, 2007 12:45 AM | Link to this
I think Buddy Carlyle has more than earned another chance. If he can give you 6 innings on a regular basis & keep his ERA around 4.00 or so that’s about all you need from a 5th starter & way more than they have gotten all year from the others.
Yeah, I know he’s only pitched three games but two of the three was quality starts. Davies can’t manage that although if his good start/bad start routine continues he will pitch well next outing.
By The Grinch
June 11, 2007 12:48 AM | Link to this
No question Lilly’s ejection was both completely wrong and fortuitous for the Braves. I shook my head at the injustice at the time, but still enjoyed the win. Harris also made Cox look like a genius by getting a hit when he had no business whatsoever swinging instead of bunting w/2 runners on and nobody out. ESPN: “Cox is an unpredictable genius.” No, he was quite predictable and quite wrong; it just worked out anyway. Just like some of these online qualifiers on the World Poker Tour who bluff the pros by making a stupid play, the pro can’t believe it and hangs around just to see wtf, and the amatuer outdraws him on the river. It’s as cool as it can be to watch, and it doesn’t make John Doe from Idaho a better player than Chris Ferguson when it works out against all odds for the money. Still, I really do like Bobby; his style works in most ways so when he accidentally wins an in-game strategy match it’s all the better.
By N8
June 11, 2007 12:52 AM | Link to this
Greg O.
“But I still think you can’t win over 2,000 games without being able to manage both games and personalities.”
Totally agree with you. He deserves some credit, just not all of it, like SO MANY want to give.
I’ve got a question for you. Do you think it’s “rude” what Pat Reilly did last year, in firing Stan Van Gundy and taking the team over himself? That’s really not much different than what Bobby did in 1990. He saw a bright future (that he helped build as GM - just like Pat did with the Miami Heat), then took it over midway through a season and has rode the wave ever since.
Here’s another question. How many managers would Steinbrenner have gone through in the 90’s had the Yankees NOT won 4 WS? What year, would he have fired Bobby? That might not be fair, but it’s a question.
I know that JS (nor Bobby) actually do the “drafting”. But do you think they actually have NO SAY in who gets drafted? Come on now.
*”In the post-Ted Turner Era, JS hasn’t been a big name free agent guy.”
He NEVER was. Maddux, Brian Jordan,Big Cat. That’s about it, the way of “frontline” free agents. The rest were trades, because Ted gave him the ‘OK’ to spend more money (McGriff, Neagle, Sheffield, Hudson). Now, JS did spend money RE-SIGNING homegrown players, and guys we traded for to extensions.
“Go ahead and maintain your stance that they’ve been blessed with talent and, at one time, the budget to sign guys like Greg Maddux. But they’ve made the deals and coaching moves that have produced wins. You can’t take that away.”
I agree with BOTH statements made there. YES, they were blessed with an “open” checkbook, and really good homegrown talent. And YES, I actually do believe that JS’s and Bobby’s BEST work has come since Glavine left. Last year’s off-season (between 05-06) wasn’t very good. And this past one looks mediocre at best. But in general, JS’s “creativity” with the roster has been very good.
But YOU are double standarding YOURSELF with the “JS/Bobby doesn’t draft players” comment. WHO are the best players we have right now?
Frenchy, Andruw, Chipper, KJ, McCann. According to YOU, JS isn’t responsible for them. He is for Renteria, I’ll give him that. But he’s also responsible for Gonzalez/LaRoche, Redman, Hampton, Hudson, Woodward, Wilson (should I keep going?)
Meanie
“Find a manager that has a .500 record after removing the top 10 seasons. Your point gets no better. What is Leyland’s record without his top 10?”
Find one that’s had 3 HOF pitchers on his staff (as starters or closers - due to Smoltz’ scenario). Hmmm. Let’s see. You’ve got Weaver in Baltimore (oh yeah…he’s a HOF’r too), Hmmm. the Dodgers of the 60’s? Seems like Walter Alston seems to have been “blessed” as well, huh?
Well since you keep insisting the whole “take out the top 10” thing. The streak started in 1991 and went to 2005 (14 years).
Bobby’s recored before/after the streak? 734-727. There. You’ve officially got a guy that’s 13 games over .500 in games that he has managed without ANY of the “Big-3”.
By Carroll Rogers
June 11, 2007 12:53 AM | Link to this
i don’t have anything important to say except you guys are on fire tonight and i appreciate it. makes covering a sunday night game worth it. i think espn just stoked everybody up. that and ted lilly….good stuff. i can say that now that i made deadline. tho from what i hear not many people will be reading it in the paper. some kind of technical issues going on downtown. oh well, we love the internet more anyway!
and jjs, i could have taken the cubbie hacks for sure!
By Ron
June 11, 2007 12:54 AM | Link to this
N8, Dude I hear what you are saying, BC was privelaged, but so was Joe Torre, and alot of other managers!!! I thought when you were sayin in your earlier post that the big 3 would have won any other manager more than 1 championship. But yeah we were not built for the Playoffs other than Smoltz, and LaRoche was Awesome in the playoffs, but we traded him, why, dont know, but it does not matter now!!! But I do give BC more credit than some, but I also bash him when I think he makes a bonehead move, and I mean a BONEHEAD move!!! I sometimes give him more credit than he should, but I also bash him some too!!!
By Greg O.
June 11, 2007 1:00 AM | Link to this
I’m not sure if Mr. Baseball is still around to answer my hypothetical, but I’ve gotta chime in to give the answer away to respond to The Grinch. Just how fortuitous were the Braves that Lilly was thrown out? The Cubs bullpen, prior to Dempster, surrendered just two runs in 6.1 innings of work. Being that you usually depend on your closer (who was rested, by the way, having not pitched the previous two days) for one inning of work, you would probably feel fairly comfortable with him in the game. The Cubs lost because of Dempster, Michael Barrett not blocking a ball in the dirt, and some good hitting by the Braves in the 8th. It had nothing to do with the Lilly ejection.
By N8
June 11, 2007 1:06 AM | Link to this
Greg O.
I hope you didn’t take any of this personally tonight.
I’ve actually enjoyed trading jabs with you.
As for your Leyland/Larussa question. I absolutely hate Larussa, so I’m afraid I’d be biased on that one. (yes, I see/saw the connection).
Let’s not forget that in 1991 (Pirates/Braves), Smoltz and Avery were pitching out of their minds. NOBODY was gonna hit them the way they pitched that NLCS. (similar to MANY of the performances against us over the years)
As for 1992? Jose “chico” Lind. Need I say more? Leyland is about as responsible for that series being lost as John McNamara is for Bucknor letting that ball roll between his legs. HOWEVER, Leyland DID leave Drabek in too long in 92, IMO.
Ron
“N8, Dude got a question for you, do you think that BC has had a better career as a manager or Omar Minaya has been a GM(that includes the Expos)?”
I’d go with Cox. What happened to the Expos was out of Minaya’s hands. What’s happened with the Mets, is based on deep pocket books (similar to some of Bobby’s success - Imagine had Ted NOT approved trading for McGriff or signing Maddux) and an owner willing to do anything to “steal” the back pages of the NY tabloids.
I’m not saying Bobby has not “been successful”, I’m just saying that it’s not all due to him.
Michael Anthony has had a WONDERFUL career (much success)being the bassit for Van Halen. Does he deserve “some” of the credit? Yup. But that band was only as good as it’s strongest two members were gonna make them. Not to much unlike the Braves with Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz in the mix.
Unless you disagree.
By Wayne in Utah
June 11, 2007 1:07 AM | Link to this
MBATL I love how frickin negative our “fans” get over a 2 run deficit.
N8 I just checked in about 20 minutes ago, and perused the blog for the past 2 hours. Man, you sure made a total A$$ out of yourself tonight. You are starting to sound like the reincarnation of Robert.
For all you other fair weather fans. When all you have is Woodward, you use Woodward. Paronto has had some great success as a decent ground ball pitcher. He came back from a hammy injury, if I remember correctly, and got hammered a few games. His game is coming back. Would you guys step back and listen to yourselves? You sound like a bunch of whining crybabies sometimes. You know, sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. After all the negative crap that I read about Thorman and Paronto, these guys end up saving the game for us. JEEEZZZ!!!
They say in NYC, it is always “what have you done for me TODAY” in the papers. Sounds like in Atlanta and the Braves Nation are turning into a bunch of frickin NY fans.
Have some patience. Don’t think that every move means that the manager is an idiot. Let’s appreciate what we have, and hope Chipper and Smoltzie gets back out there in a few days.
I am still waiting for Nate to post his apologies to all on the blog for being such a negative A$$ tonight.
By Ron
June 11, 2007 1:09 AM | Link to this
Some of you all are saying that it was injustice for the ump to throw out Lilly, what the Hell are yall talkin about, our best hitter right now has a hand contusion, day to day!!! That is injustice, he deserved to get thrown out of that game, Everybody knew he was gonna throw at one of the Braves hitters, and he threw at our BEST hitter, and injured him!!! People get it together, Hand injuries are one of the worst you can get, he may not be the same for 2 weeks, I am glad and applaud the Home plate Ump for that!!! He had enough common sense to know and wait for Lilly to throw at a brave!!! GREAT JOB BY THE HOME PLATE UMP!!! Hell our Best hitter may be hurt more than we realize, especially when he threw his elbow and hit the guy that was covering 2nd base, we should be disgusted at what happened to Renteria!!! We cant afford to have more injuries!!!
By fastasballs
June 11, 2007 1:10 AM | Link to this
It’s on to the Hanky Dome on Tuesday. They face a righty named Slowey, what a name for a pitcher.
A few good things going for the Braves in the game already 1) He’s not a lefty 2) Willie Harris gets to start on turf
Bad things going against them. 1) They face a pitcher they have never seen 2) I have a gut feeling the “wind” will be blowing in if you know what I mean.
It’s a really tuff interleague schedule for the Braves coming up. My guess is they play good ball, three games over .500 during the stretch & then promptly get swept by the Nats in the series following, lol.
Night everyone!
By Wayne in Utah
June 11, 2007 1:12 AM | Link to this
Greg O, MBATL, Bob and all others who didn’t give up hope and start turning into a Nate tonight, thanks for being good Braves fans!
By N8
June 11, 2007 1:14 AM | Link to this
Ron
No harm man. I should mention you as well with the “back and forth”.
I try NOT to get hostile towards other bloggers. I just LOVE talking (arguing) Braves baseball with ALL of you.
Do I think that we should have won more titles? ABSOLUTELY. Who to blame for the failures? We know what Robert would say. :-)
I think every series/post-season was different. Some fall on Bobby. Some fall on the HOF’rs (Maddux, Smoltz, even Sheff and McGriff - if they make it to the HOF), some to the bench (Danny Bautista anybody?).
They’re ALL to blame at one time or another. Or if you believe Bobby…..the unluckiest 14 years of dominance ANY sports team has ever endured. (well…13 of the 14 anyhow. we DID win in 95 - I sometimes forget that. LOL!)
By Bob, Journalist
June 11, 2007 1:16 AM | Link to this
Geauxbraves2000, we are all products of our environs and I too expected the retaliation … not sure why it was Edgar … but, I don’t fault the umpires for not going through the “warning” process as it is not intended to address situations where the weight of evidence suggests intent.
We’ve been struggling … well, we always find ways to do that but I’m talking about the team … they were perky tonight and that’s good!
Perky teams are seldom out of it, even when they leave their “A” game at home … and often find ways to win where ethargic ones would fail … I like Perky, he comes to play.
Contrary to rumor, Perky and Power are friends … nad Running, even considering the consequences of possible failure, is a friend of both.
An entended period of playing rather poorly, certainly below expectations … and 2.5 out.
Goodnight Miss Allen
By The Grinch
June 11, 2007 1:17 AM | Link to this
Greg O, I’ll agree with you on paper. However, after yesterday’s game I contend it made a psychological difference. The Braves got stoked in front of the home crowd (which was also stoked for the same reason) by virtue of the situation in general. I believe the Cubs were similarly deflated. However, they played well and almost won anyway, much due to the reality you just pointed out. My point was that it wasn’t won by Cox’s in-game management. Cox is an excellent manager; his career numbers bear that out. But it’s his handling of the players and media day to day that makes him so; otherwise he’s about the fourth sharpest knife in the drawer out of five.
How about quiet Edgar’s old-school slide? Good stuff.
Carroll, I’m glad we could be of service. :-)
By Wayne in Utah
June 11, 2007 1:17 AM | Link to this
Ron, you think the Cav’s have it in them to pull one or two out in Cleveland???
By Randy
June 11, 2007 1:19 AM | Link to this
Train Wreck Bystander: The move to pinch run with James was actually a really smart move on Bobby’s part. He double-switched heading into the 9th, Wickman hitting 3rd and Orr hitting 9th, so that if the Cubs scored you wouldn’t have Wickman hitting in a potentially important point in the bottom of the 9th. Took me a moment to realize what he was doing. It is actually one of the slickest moves I have seen by a manager, definitely thinking a few steps ahead.
By Greg O.
June 11, 2007 1:21 AM | Link to this
N8,
I don’t think Pat Reilly and Bobby Cox qualify a fair comparison. Arguably the most dominant player at his position (Shaquille O’Neal) in his era was not playing for the Braves. Bobby Cox absolutely did not have that. He had a good, young nucleus of players. And the 1991 NL MVP was not playing for the team when he took over. And, if I’m not mistaken, I believe I’ve read that Ted Turner asked Bobby to take over the team. And I’m positive that JS wrote in his recent book that he took the job with the condition that Bobby continue being the manager. Overall, I think that’s pretty clearly an apples to oranges comparison.
As far as setting a double standard goes, I don’t think I am setting one. I’m just clarifying that JS doesn’t have much to do with the drafting process. He doesn’t make the call on draft picks and doesn’t sign the players. Sure, he has the final say, should he decide to overrule someone, but I’d say you won’t see JS at any/many high school or college games during the spring. These statements aren’t to take anything away from JS. I think it speaks to his strength of delegating responsibility to trustworthy people. An anecdote to back that up would be Adam LaRoche’s situation prior to the draft. Everybody wanted LaRoche as a lefty pitcher, but LaRoche wanted to hit. Nobody else believed in his hitting abilities, but the Braves scouts believed enough to take him as a hitter in the later rounds - the rest is history.
You’re right, some of the best players the Braves have were drafted. But JS put his people in position to succeed with the resources they needed. The Braves have always allotted a great amount of money to their scouting and draft pick signing budgets (they were tied for third in draft budget last year according to the Baseball America Prospect Handbook).
But let’s be clear about the current team as it relates to JS directly - their pitching would be completely in shambles without him. Smoltz, Hudson, Wickman, Soriano, Paronto, Cormier, Carlyle, Villarreal, and Yates would not be there without him. As you mentioned, Renteria also wouldn’t be there and neither would Diaz nor Willie Harris. And just as another point of clarification, Andruw Jones was not drafted, he was signed out of Curacao, but that’s an issue of semantics as scouts are still responsible in that situation.
By Ron
June 11, 2007 1:23 AM | Link to this
N8, you made this statement to somebody else, but gonna comment: I’ve got a question for you. Do you think it’s “rude” what Pat Reilly did last year, in firing Stan Van Gundy and taking the team over himself? That’s really not much different than what Bobby did in 1990. He saw a bright future (that he helped build as GM - just like Pat did with the Miami Heat), then took it over midway through a season and has rode the wave ever since. Dude you just lost me there, Everybody was picking the Heat to win the Championship that year, including me, and they also made the playoffs the year before!!! The Braves were the worst team in the league in 1990 and had the first pick in 91(which was Chipper Jones) and nobody was pickin the Braves, from worst to first!!! Yes it was a bright future, but I dont even think he knew they would be that damn good!!! Now if BC became the manager in the middle of the season in 92 then you could compare the two, but your argument, did not make sense at all!!!
By Wayne in Utah
June 11, 2007 1:23 AM | Link to this
N8: I am reading some of your after game posts, and you are starting to sound a bit more like the old Nate we all know and love.
Now, please do us a favor next game. Think before you type. If KJ hit a homer to start the game is he a hero is he strikes out three more times, and we lose 2-1? Just try to keep it more on an even keel.
Most baseball fans would have killed their favorite dog (no Vick references, please) to have the past 15 years we have had as Braves fans.
By N8
June 11, 2007 1:25 AM | Link to this
Wayne…I’m sorry. :-)
Sorry you feel that way.
I’m not appologizing for anything I said tonight.
Woodward is worthless.
Thorman can’t hit (he occasionally gets lucky), and doesn’t have good range at 1B, and tonight made a bonehead play.
Andruw won’t stop hacking.
Bobby does NOT manage in an unpredictable manner (no matter what Joe Morgan says)
Bobby is BARLEY over .500 in games where he managed without ANY of the “Big-3”, much less all of them.
The “Big-3” are MORE responsible for the “run” than Bobby is/was.
Bobby the GM is more responsible for the “run” than JS is/was.
Steinbrenner would’ve fired Bobby in the 90’s. Probably BEFORE the 95 WS victory.
Have I left any of the “topics” of the night of my “Comments I will not appologize for” list.
The only thing I’m “sorry” for, is that you weren’t “here” earlier to join the discussion, since I’m going to bed.
PS: Make no mistake about it. The homers will mark this one down in the “victories in games that the opponant started a LHP.”
By Wayne in Utah
June 11, 2007 1:28 AM | Link to this
Good points Randy. I can’t wait until out pitching solidifies and allows the Braves to make a couple of positional changes. Personally, when Chipper comes back, I am hoping that Orr goes to Richmond, and Pena comes up to replace one of the pitchers, maybe Paronto.
By Bob
June 11, 2007 1:30 AM | Link to this
Guys I don’t think Lilly should have been tossed either, but I suspect that the real reason was that the ball was headed straight for Edgar’s head and Renteria had to use his hand to deflect the ball. That is where Renteria got the contusion. Hudson’s plunk of Soriano did not come anywhere near the head. Still, I think the umps should have warned both teams and gone on.
By Greg O.
June 11, 2007 1:32 AM | Link to this
N8,
I’m from Connecticut (a.k.a. a state bordering New York and their degenerate fans). Your comments were tame compared to what I usually hear, so I, too, have enjoyed the back-and-forth.
Wayne,
I agree that the negativity makes many of the Braves fans on here tonight sound like they’re from New York. I just wish those in Atlanta filled the seats like those in New York.
Random thought
I was in the stands at Shea for Game 7 of the NLCS against the Cardinals last year and it was priceless to be involved in the silent funeral procession-like exit from that dump after the game.
By Ron
June 11, 2007 1:36 AM | Link to this
Wayne in Utah, Whats goin on man? I think the Cavs will win 2 in Cleveland, but get beat in Game 6!!! Cavs are a good team, but the Spurs are unbelievable!!! Could be 4 Championships in 9 years, gotta be a top Dynasty!!! You know what the Nets had the 2nd pick in the Draft the year that Duncan was in!!! I wonder how different it would be if the Nets got that 1st pick and the Spurs got the 2nd pick? BTW, the Nets selected Keith Van Horn with that 2nd pick!!!
By Wayne in Utah
June 11, 2007 1:37 AM | Link to this
N8: Glad you are going to bed now, cause I think as a baseball fan and a student of the game, YOU are the one that is fairly worthless.
Sweet dreams……….
are you sure you are not Robert.
Where’s my man Willy Wally tonight. Wicky doesn’t want to close out the blog without Soriano there to back him up!
By N8
June 11, 2007 1:38 AM | Link to this
Wayne
We won the game tonight because of Harris. PERIOD.
PH base hit, SB and scores STANDING UP on a WP.
Now ask yourself the question: Why did he get only 1 AB, instead of 3?
We ALMOST lost, (yeah, I know - the Braves aren’t a hand grenade team - unless you count Wellman), because Bobby tried to “squeeze” one more inning out of Buddy after he was in his car all day the other day.
NOBODY can argue that. Did I “jump the gun” complaining about stuff, during a game that we eventually won, like I often do? Sure.
But tonight was a game that we won despite Bobby’s decisions, not BECAUSE of them, IMO.
I’m glad we won. PERIOD. But it wasn’t a game in which I was given any confidence (especially if Renteria is down), that we’re gonna go play in Minnesota and Cleveland and “take it to them”, other than Buddy looking really good for 5 IP, and more than acceptable in 7 IP.
“N8: I am reading some of your after game posts, and you are starting to sound a bit more like the old Nate we all know and love.”
Thanks. For what it’s worth, I’m sorry if I “ruined” the evening for anybody. But if I did……LIGHTEN UP.
GOODNIGHT GUYS.
By jed
June 11, 2007 1:43 AM | Link to this
—willie harris! the man’s unstoppable. another pinch-hit tonight, then steals 2nd, then scores the winning run? halle-freakin’-looyah!
—buddy carlyle: that’s 2 quality starts in a row. 2 more and i might start believing. excellent, though. —having said that, he was cooked in the 6th inning and shouldve never come out for the 7th. that was stupid, yes. —thor had a big hit tonight. good for him. but i’ve never seen a 1b with less range in my life. that triple was playable, not to mention soft toss to kelly on that ridiculous infield singe. uggg. i think he’s fine off the bench as a lefty pinch-hitter, though. actually, i do. —kelly’s still not the steadiest glove out there. he’s fine, but i wince every time the ball’s hit to him. especially late in the game. (ie, the high throw to thorman tonight on the doubleplay ball.) —i’d have warned both sides after lilly’s pitch, BUT come on…everybody saw that coming, so lay off the ump for being honest enough to admit the obvious.
—edgar was p**, and i dont blame him, but i didnt know whether to laugh or cringe when he slammed that kid. —i happen to like jon miller. seriously. he’s one of the few i can listen to. —kudos to the poster with the gordon solie reference!
By N8
June 11, 2007 1:45 AM | Link to this
Greg O.
“I was in the stands at Shea for Game 7 of the NLCS against the Cardinals last year and it was priceless to be involved in the silent funeral procession-like exit from that dump after the game.”
LOVE IT. Now THAT is comedy at it’s finest.
For the record, I agree. My comparison of Bobby to Pat Reilly, isn’t in the same neigborhood upon further review.
Similar, but not really. Bobby would’ve had to be prophet to see that much success coming.
Also make no mistake. I do think that Bobby is a good teacher of the game to the kids.
By Ron
June 11, 2007 1:45 AM | Link to this
N8, I like to go back and forth with other bloggers also!!! I agree with you sometimes, and disagree with you sometimes, but I dont get mad about it, and you dont either!!! This is a blog and we have the right to post the disagreements or agreements, thats why I like this blog!!! I respect what you say, I am a regular, and you are too!!! We all have 1 thing in common and that we are Braves fans!!!
By Greg O.
June 11, 2007 1:51 AM | Link to this
N8,
Perfect segue to another reason why Bobby is a great manager:
“Now ask yourself the question: Why did he get only 1 AB, instead of 3?”
The answer: Bobby gives all his players occasional starts and at bats in order to keep them fresh. With the lefty starting the game, Diaz was the choice in left. And who did Harris get his hit off of? The right-handed Dempster. Not saying he can’t hit lefties, but there’s a valid reason for the line-up card that Bobby managed tonight.
By choppinmama
June 11, 2007 1:52 AM | Link to this
A few musings and comments in the early morning hours. Still have a little adrenalin load to deal with after tonight’s win.
I was just climbing into my rallytard tonight(last night)when we had the bases loaded, and said to my husband “now we need a wild pitch that really gets away and Willie will sail home for the lead…….” and doggone if that rallytard didn’t come through for us tonight. No kidding, it was kind of spooky. But…..whatever works, right? Nice, nice win.
From the Great Umpire Carnac in tonight’s game - The answer is: Stop, drop and roll. The question: What Lily heard from the umpire tonight “Stop the headhunting, drop the ball, and roll on off the field and into the charter - you’re outta here”
Renteria was ready to rumble with that Tomahawk Chop slide. Glad to see the quiet giant riled up a little tonight, but sounds like that hand will be throbbing on his day off. And, add another #1 Defensive Play of the Game to his resume.
fastasballs: another Miller miscue when he mis-identified Chuck James as Pete Orr on that pinch-run situation. The truck must have bees screaming in his ear” “it’s Chuck James, Chuck James”
Braveheart: thanks for the magic number updates, I think they are a very important stat in the stat scheme of things on this blog.
No game today, let’s blog like crazy and make DOB so proud of us when he gets back and tells us about his day - right, Dave??
‘nite all
By Ron
June 11, 2007 1:56 AM | Link to this
Well take it easy everybody, goin to bed, gotta get up early in the morning!!!!!!
By Wayne in Utah
June 11, 2007 2:04 AM | Link to this
Carroll: Thanks for your report on Chipper’s situation. Personally, I hope he doesn’t rush it. I would rather lose 8 out of 10, and have him back HEALTHY than to get him back too early.
Willy Wally take it home dude!
Everybody else (Nate, you too), see you tomorrow night. (we win, the Mets lose, it’s all good!)
By Randy
June 11, 2007 2:10 AM | Link to this
Obviously we would all like to see the Braves draw more fans to the Ted, but let’s give Atlanta a little credit this weekend. Attendance averaged over 38,000 for the Cubs series, including almost 52,000 Saturday night. Granted, there might have been a few Cubs fans in the mix, but the visiting team draws a little at every game. Just nice numbers to see. Keep this up and we can resign a certain very important free agent……Willie Harris!
By serbok
June 11, 2007 2:11 AM | Link to this
I thought the best part of the gamw, was when the bird walked in front of the pitcher
By The Grinch
June 11, 2007 2:14 AM | Link to this
Yeah, well; I’ve enjoyed talking to myself the last two hours. G’night all; hope my opinions become more relevent as the night/day wears on. :-)
By serbok
June 11, 2007 2:15 AM | Link to this
GRINCH *No question Lilly’s ejection was both completely wrong and fortuitous for the Braves. I shook my head at the injustice at the time, but still enjoyed the win. Harris also made Cox look like a genius by getting a hit when he had no business whatsoever swinging instead of bunting w/2 runners on and nobody out. ESPN: “Cox is an unpredictable genius.” No, he was quite predictable and quite wrong;
Absofrogginlutely!
Excellent post!
By Willy Wally
June 11, 2007 2:17 AM | Link to this
I got it Wayne. get yourself some rest.
By The Grinch
June 11, 2007 2:23 AM | Link to this
Thank you, serbok. Now I may sleep in peace. Until tomorrow.
By serbok
June 11, 2007 2:25 AM | Link to this
Actually should have said a “funny thing?”
By Willy Wally
June 11, 2007 2:27 AM | Link to this
9-5 when Hudson takes the hill. 9-4 when Smoltz takes the hill. 7-6 when James takes the hill. 6-5 when Davies takes the hill. 1-4 when Redman took the hill (or gave it away is more like it). 2-1 with Buddy. 1-2 with Larew. 0-2 with Cormier.
18-9 with Smoltz and Hudson. 13-11 with James and Davies. 31-20 with Smoltz, Hudson, James, and Davies. 33-21 when you include Buddy. 2-8 with the other clowns.
By serbok
June 11, 2007 2:42 AM | Link to this
N8 Bobby does NOT manage in an unpredictable manner (no matter what Joe Morgan says)
Let there be truth to fill the air!
By mr baseball
June 11, 2007 3:08 AM | Link to this
Greg 0:
Left the blog for a while, missed your response. I imagine you’re asleep as I post this, but maybe you’ll see this later today.
First off, where did you get the impression I’m a Cubs fans? Been posting here since Spring Training, including several earlier today. Being a Braves fan doesn’t mean you can’t be honest and semi-objective.
We have no idea how the game would have turned out if Lilly had not been ejected. He might have duplicated the efforts of Hill & Marshall, or he might have gotten shelled. I think the former is more likely, but who knows. At any rate, everything that happened after his ejection was artificial, due to the jacka$$ umpire tossing him.
Assuming your hypothetical, Dempster would not have been pitching the 8th inning under any circumstances. Howry, who I believe threw 2 scoreless tonight, would have pitched against the RH part of the lineup. Ohman would have pitched against the lefties. And we all know how well the Braves hit the Cubs lefties in the series. Dempster would not have appeared until the 9th.
All that is conjecture. The plain fact is that the umpire took the game away from the Cubs, just like Eric Gregg took the playoff game away from the Braves against Livan. I want the Braves to win as much as the next guy here, but when the umpire puts the opposition into a difficult situation through his incompetence/arrogance, whatever, you can’t just pretend it didn’t happen.
The Braves were extremely fortunate to win, emphasis on extremely. If I was a Cubs fan, the next time Mr. Wolf umpires at Wrigley, I would greet him with some expletives he could easily understand without reading my mind.
By Bob, Journalist
June 11, 2007 3:21 AM | Link to this
Hopefully, it’s now officially in the wee hours and I can use those that should not be named during the daytime … why even my sister gave me a hard time regarding my Religious and Political posts … some of which I had shared with her via email.
Baby sisters are good … every family should have one … I’ve heard that they can be expensive but occasionally, you can find them at Sam’s Club, K-Mart, and other such places. Mine’s there all the time.
I won’t share her initial email because of it’s length but here’s her most recent after I explained things and put the fear of God … no, no, I wouldn’t do that, she’s a big girl now!
*Bobby, this is very good! I misunderstood the comments and I am indeed glad that you explained and I reread them.
Love Lynda*
Like I said, baby sisters are good … but mine is priceless rather than expensive!
The need for explanations shouldn’t be too surprising … she’s a Braves’ fan but doesn’t routinely follow the Blog and like most of you, prefers plain talk to some of my rhetoric … so things had to be put into proper context.
Also, while friends and family are familiar with the beliefs, writing style, syntax and word choices of the one behind the mask, I must admit that my persona is a somewhat exaggerated version of myself … sometimes gilding the lily, emoting and taking other license for effect.
She still loves me, in spite of my foolishness and faults … and like the Braves win, that’s a good thing!
By mr baseball
June 11, 2007 3:23 AM | Link to this
Serbok:
Was about to go to bed when I saw your 2:15 post with my least favorite 4-letter baseball word: bunt.
First off, there was a man on 2nd and no outs, not 2 on (Willie’s hit made it 1st & 3rd). Joe Morgan would have had Willie bunt, but no way anyone who has watched this team lately would have done so, at least not anyone with a clue. Willie is hitting .400+ against RH pitchers. Why would you play for a tie by taking the bat out of the hands of the hottest hitter on the team. For a change, Bobby did the right thing.
If he had bunted, the Cubs walk Kelly and Escobar grounds into a DP, which ends the inning with the Braves still behind. Under no circumstances do you give up an out in that situation with a guy batting over .400 against righties.
Joe Morgan only knows what the baseball book tells him. Usually that’s the case with Bobby, but tonight he actually chose logic over the book, and the result was a victory. I hope he remembers that the next time the urge moves him to have Willie lay one down.
By Coach
June 11, 2007 3:25 AM | Link to this
After twenty-five season of managing , I think it’s a fair statement to say that Cox is indeed predictable to a certain point. When Buddy Carlyle came out to bat in the bottom of the sixth after the Cubs ripped line drive after line drive in the top of the sixth I knew Cox had left his starter in to long………. again. Go back and check the blog at 9:59 , I called it right before buddy got lit up again in the seventh. Cox will continue to make that mistake again and again all season , fortunately for him the offense and the meltdown by Dempster got Cox off the hook. But, Cox did an excellent job of pinch hitting Willie and McCann in the eighth and out managing Sweet Lou in the process , knowing he would try to pitch around McCann and Jones after willie stole second. So , Cox redeemed himself but we all know he is only human just like the rest of us. We have gone 5-6 in the month of June and actually gained ground on the Mets who have seemingly collapsed in June (2-7). The Twins are 3-6 so far this month and we would do well to take two out of three before seeing the Indians , Redsox and Tigers.
By Bob, Journalist
June 11, 2007 3:35 AM | Link to this
after the Cubs ripped line drive after line drive in the top of the sixth I knew Cox had left his starter in to long
Coach, he probably did too!
By serbok
June 11, 2007 4:01 AM | Link to this
mr baseball Excellent points! Stats, are Stats? If the runner makes it to third~ on a SACRIFICE! bunt. There is ONE out? The object of the game at this point is to get the tying run to 3rd base~ for a innumerable possibilities? Specifically a SAC fly? Bobby lucked out Willie got a hit~! It absolutely worked, no doubt!
By Coach
June 11, 2007 4:07 AM | Link to this
so , why did he leave him in to pitch the seventh when I knew he should have been out of the game ? Bob , are you trying to insinuate that I’m smarter than Bobby Cox ? Didn’t think so. Cox screwed up , I obviously dont have the man’s resume but even a casual fan watching the sixth knew buddy was done.
By serbok
June 11, 2007 4:08 AM | Link to this
If he had bunted, the Cubs walk Kelly and Escobar grounds into a DP,
COACH, with all due respect, WE do not know the Cub’s walk kelly?
IN that situation~ IMO, You BUNT! Johnson is a known power hitter?
By serbok
June 11, 2007 4:18 AM | Link to this
Smarter Than Bobby Cox what a conundrum:o(
By We Have Mets the Enemy
June 11, 2007 4:43 AM | Link to this
WARNING!! “SOPRANOS” SPOLIER TO FOLLOW!! SKIP THIS POST IF YOU HAVEN’T WATCHED!! YOU’VE BEEN WARNED!!
At the end of “The Sopranos” last night, did anyone think for just a few seconds, like I did, that your cable had gone out at the most inopportune time in history?
That was a LONG ten seconds or so before the credits rolled.
Once the credits started, I thought, “What the hell?”
Then I thought what probably happened was Meadow comes in the diner, Tony looks her way, and then the abrupt cut to black represents a distracted Tony suddenly getting a bullet in the brain he never sees coming.
But after more time for reflection, and a second viewing later on HBO2, I’m not longer sure at all. And we’ll never know for sure, will we?
It was just brilliant, that’s all.
Anyone notice the flip side of the single Tony selected on the jukebox?
“Any Way You Want It.”
Pretty much says it all, huh? Sheer brilliance.
Thank you, David Chase, for “The Sopranos.” And a lot of great “Rockford Files” episodes.
By Bob, Journalist
June 11, 2007 5:42 AM | Link to this
Coach, I’m headed for the hot tub … but no, I wasn’t suggesting that you are smarter than Mr. Cox, of equal intelligence … or dumber.
Bobby may not be very smart in the eyes of some but he’s wise enough to realize that it’s best not to be overly critical of others in public … there are much better ways to make your point.
What’s your honest personal opinion of those who so do?
I routinely question Bobby’s in game decisions and might occasionaly venture such a comparison in the friendly confines of my mind or even my home … but I wouldn’t dare share those with anyone, for fear of looking more stupid than is already the case.
Methinks that those who are openly critical of the intelligence and wisdom of others … when other agenda acheiving devices are available, are themselves wise, only in their own mind’s eye … and could take lessons from Mr. Cox.
I’ve also been known to use stronger language to so say … in those same friendly confines.
By Coach
June 11, 2007 6:11 AM | Link to this
Bob , thats why it’s called a blog and no I don’t think of it as public. What would we do without a world of critics ? I have always thought that criticism is part of the learning curve or did those fella’s in the bear hats who screamed and cursed at us in basic training have it all wrong. We can be objective without being negative , but what fun would that be ?
By Berigan
June 11, 2007 6:42 AM | Link to this
DOB, et al,
Have y’all ever checked out the fanatical web site of Red Sox fans, www.sonsofsamhorn.com ,??? Oh my God!!!! Puts us at our very worst to shame!!! I was just curious since they lost to Arizona today, how full of themselves they were before the game. They have a thread for every single game, and the thread for yesterday’s game was 44 pages!!! It was only 44 pages, cuz they lost the game!!! ;)
Funny to read the very same kind of complaints about the Red Sox that you hear here considering they have better starters, and offense(and record) than we do. They wish death to Terry Francona, and Coco Crisp, and Julio Lugo(Who has a most amazing offensive numbers I have ever seen, .213 Average, 17 steals, 34 RBIs-which at this pace would give him 93 RBI’s over the whole season!!!!)you browse their site, and you’d think they were in last place, moving further south. And the language! Holy Toledo, be warned, it’s NC-17 at the very least!!! It’s really funny to read!
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtopic=19623
By Bob, Journalist
June 11, 2007 6:46 AM | Link to this
Coach, if per chance you happen to read this and are so interested, it was not my intent to avoid answering your question as to why Bobby would have left Buddy in to start the seventh after seeing him hard hit in the sixth.
The hot tub was sehr, sehr gut!
Neither of us really know the answer … but his decision making matrix is much larger than mine so there are many possibilities which I never consider … it’s very possible that he wanted to see how his pitcher, who had on two ocassions impressed … would respond … true, it cost a run to find out … and it made the comeback a bit more difficult … but, if that was his reason, he probably got his answer.
Not knowing the reason, we wouldn’t know the outcome either … it could be simply that when Buddy hits the wall, he doesn’t recover … or that, even when he’s run out of gas, he’s a gamer. No, we wouldn’t know, but Bobby would then know more about his pitcher, if indeed that were to be his objective.
There could be lots of reasons why he took the action he took, even if he agreed with your analysis … that would be just one.
As an aside, I huff and puff, and frequently second guess … but, I so do with the knowledge that my judgements are passion based and frequently made after the fact … while his are made in real time and based on more complex considerations and more/better information.
Even with that knowledge, I still do it … usually in the friendly confines, one of my priveleges as a fan!
By ncscoots
June 11, 2007 6:46 AM | Link to this
Tossing Lilly? Unjustified arrogance by the ump.
Renteria’s slide? If Edgar thought they were throwing at his head, sure. Retaliation on the bases was the accepted practice back in the day when players handled things (See any Dodgers-Giants series in the 50s and 60s. Total wars, EVERY series).
Not one of Bobby’s greatest efforts, but the players put things to rights. As should be the case.
Two-and-a-half back? Are you kidding me? 5-6 and you GAIN ground? Who says baseball ain’t befuddlin’?
By Bigboi
June 11, 2007 7:07 AM | Link to this
I would love to see Willie Harris in the everyday lineup. That kid flat out rakes. Is there no way we can fit him in?
By Gil in Mechanicsville
June 11, 2007 7:15 AM | Link to this
Good morning all, This is my second attempt to post this morning. Thankfully I am a bit dull witted this morning and my first post is vanquished to cyberspace because of my inability to click the proper icon.
The net results is a much shorter post that will focus more on baseball than many of the nattering nabobs who reside on this blog.
My only negative comment will be reserved for Jon Miller and ESPN who was so consumed by the tossing of Lilly last night that he completely lost track of the game.
Apparently some of you who reside on this blog did the same.
One thing to consider when looking for a bench player to take the place of Pete Orr or Woodward is the Brave need a back up 2nd baseman. We have several players who appear capable of filling in at short and third but Orr seems to be the only guy who backs up the 2nd base position.
I am glad Buddy Carlyle got another chance to pitch last night. I though he pitched a good game in spite of the two dingers. He did not get himself into a lot of trouble and allow his team to stay in the game. He is a solid number 5 guy.
Send Larew and Cormier back down to Richmond because they are not ready for the bigs yet.
By Ron Roberts
June 11, 2007 7:20 AM | Link to this
What shouldn’t get lost in the shuffle is Buddy Carlyle’s second quality start in his first three for us.
I’ll take that from a potential fifth starter, anyday.
By Gil in Mechanicsville
June 11, 2007 7:22 AM | Link to this
Perhaps Willie Harris plays as well as he does is because he does not play everyday. Look at what it has done for Thorman. I wish we had someone who could provide that same type of spark as Harris hitting for the right side.
By Berigan
June 11, 2007 7:24 AM | Link to this
ncscoots, about that Renteria slide. I saw the replay a few times on ESPN last night, slow mo, and everything, and after seeing it again, it really looked chicken-sh** to me, IMHO. And I like Renteria a lot. But, I hate seeing small guys run over like Mike Lowell did to Robinson Cano last week. If A-Rod had been involved in either play, he’d have death threats against him , and 24-7 coverage . Renteria had already seen the Cubs pitcher thrown out, what more did he want?
Kinda wish we were playing them again, why the heII did we play them twice in early june, and no more? That should be reserved for out west teams.
By Apaul404
June 11, 2007 7:33 AM | Link to this
Get rid or Woodward now! He’s terrible. And he swings like a girl. Another solid outing by Buddy Carlisle, he may have been left out there a little bit too long but all and all it was a good performance. Go Braves!
By Berigan
June 11, 2007 7:39 AM | Link to this
Ron, I agree completely! I was quite PO’ed that they sent him back after a 1 hitter thru 7 inning game! Glad “they” came to their senses. Imagine being Carlyle for minute! being out of the big show for as long as he has, stuck with it, and to finally get rewarded for all that hard work! I bet a lot of folks were telling him to give up, that if you haven’t had a win in the majors since 1999, you won’t ever get one again. Per Diem is better than what he made in a month in the minors. Really hope things work out for him here.
Bob, per your 6:46 AM post…. it’s very possible that he wanted to see how his pitcher, who had on two ocassions impressed … would respond … true, it cost a run to find out … and it made the comeback a bit more difficult … but, if that was his reason, he probably got his answer.
That sounds quite plausable from some of the stuff Smoltz said about Bobby. That’s all well and good when you have the lead, leave a guy in with a 4-2 lead, let him work in and out of trouble, or if he gives up a run, get him out. Risky, but still might build confidence, but what can be gained down 3-2? Pat him on the back, say 3 runs in 6 innings, you kept us in the game “kid”. I mean, we have 13 pitchers for some reason, don’t we???? I mean besides making sure Woodward and Orr get in every single game????
By Berigan
June 11, 2007 7:41 AM | Link to this
Good grief!!!! 343 posts in 13 hours!!!
By Gil in Mechanicsville
June 11, 2007 8:03 AM | Link to this
News from the farm I am attaching a link on the games yesterday between Richmond and Buffalo. Appears another young stud may be on the way….
http://www.timesdispatch.com/cva/ric/sports.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2007-06-11-0147.html
By Coach
June 11, 2007 8:34 AM | Link to this
My positive comment for the day , we have been outscored , outplayed , outpitched and have a losing record (5-6) in June. Nevertheless , we have picked up two whole games on the Mets so far this month. Incredible ain’t it ?????
By 22oz
June 11, 2007 8:41 AM | Link to this
I am so glad that i don’t have the internet at home, so i can’t post during the games. It is downright entertaining to go back and read through last nights posts. Lots of knee-jerk reactions, most of the same things i say to myself on the couch, but my comments aren’t recorded for all to read.
By MEB
June 11, 2007 8:51 AM | Link to this
Good morning Braves blog! Still feel good about the Braves resilience last night in the face of a lot of adversity. With the current struggles of this team it was easy to get down and over diagnose and second guess every move. The beauty of baseball can be found in its unpredictability and last night was a prime example of that beauty. Felt real good to have faith that two runs were within reach and see the Braves use some grit and determination to win out.
I’m not a Joe Morgan fan but he did state that Willie Harris should be swinging away after Jon Miller opined that the Braves would likely be bunting. You can tell he also likes what Willie Harris brings to the game. Willie’s bat and speed need to be in our lineup on a daily basis.
I will give ESPN some credit for some great technical work. The camera work and their ability to show multiple replays at different angles was great. Being able to watch in HD was also tremendous. Edgar’s slide with attitude was priceless!
By CrimeDawg
June 11, 2007 8:55 AM | Link to this
Realistically, I will be extremely happy and a bit shocked if we make the playoffs this year…
Pitching rotation in disarray…(Hampton and Cormier two guys we were counting on to make 40% of our starts complete busts!!!…Hudson has come back down to earth…Smoltz’s arm could fall off at any second!!)
Our second best reliever out for the SEASON won’t be back until LATE ‘08 even! (Mike Gonzalez)…
Chipper with his sprained uterus…McCann with his own nagging injuries turning him into about a .270 hitter since April…Andruw in a season long slump!…We’ve got the worst starting 1st baseman in the majors!…
Our best player who has hit over .380 in almost 100 at bats is platooning!!…
Willie Harris must be made an everyday player…Saltalamacchia must be made our everyday 1B…Joey Devine must be called up…
These are some things that must take place for us to sniff the playoffs!!! and don’t kid yourselves we are in the WILDCARD race forget the NL East and we will be LUCKY to make even the wildcard with the ridiculous rotation San Diego has I pity the fools that take on the padres in the opening round of the postseason
By Bill
June 11, 2007 9:09 AM | Link to this
I need to go to bed early every nite. This team is so unpredictable. I agree they need some changes. I agree that Devine needs to be added to pen. After 2 or 3 more starts bring up Reyes.
By Shaun
June 11, 2007 9:14 AM | Link to this
Gil in Mechanicsville,
I guess it was a pretty big deal that the starting pitcher gets tossed in the first inning. I understand what the umpire was trying to do, but tossing the guy in the first without warning doesn’t happen often.
In my opinion, unless it’s obviously clear that a guy is throwing at a hitter’s head, the starter shouldn’t be tossed in the first inning. I think the umpire needs to give players the benefit of the doubt as much as possible so that something like an ejection doesn’t have a chance to decide the game.
And I agree with someone else on here—I’m a huge Renteria fan, always have been, but how does Lilly get tossed and Renteria gets nothing for basically punching the shortstop in the nose. Then again, I suspect the commissioner’s office saw that or will and will fine him.
By Ron Roberts
June 11, 2007 9:18 AM | Link to this
Hey CrimeDawg, as soon as Saltalamacchia’s better at 1B with the glove than you and I would be, I might be convinced.
But since some folks like to make sport of berating Thorman, the one good game he has, we should note it, too. He had two stellar ABs last night, and was at the back end of that nice play Renteria made. He hadda good night; if it marks a turnaround (I’ll not hold my breath, but just for the sake of a conundrum) then we become a much more formidable lineup.
Hell, he actually got a nice hit off a lefty, too. Progress, maybe?
Saltalamacchia hadda good game, too, and gave McCann’s ankle the night off he and it needed.
By CrimeDawg
June 11, 2007 9:26 AM | Link to this
Nice post Gil…
If you’re wondering who our top pitching prospects are…
(Starters): Jo Jo Reyes, Dan Smith, Matt Harrison, and a guy who is wasting away in Rome but has stuff as good as ANYbody’s Tommy Hanson…
(Relief): Joey Devine, Will Startup, Manny Acosta, Phil Stockman (when healthy he’s dominant), and Joshua Smith was a TERRIFIC draft pick he will destroy the Gulf Coast League…
Anybody else here in favor of Saltalamacchia being pretty much untouchable in trade talks but willing to dangle Yunel Escobar?
By Blanco
June 11, 2007 9:32 AM | Link to this
Every attempt must be made to get Willie Harris into the game as much as possible. Diaz is a nice hitter and good hustler, but Willie’s speed makes him unique in th e Braves’ lineup. I honestly think that if Woodward had been on 3rd (I know, it’s a stretch but humor me) on the passed ball, he would have too tentative/slow/bewildered to score on the play and we may not have won the game. I think Bobby really needs to work on getting Harris into the game instead of Woodward as much as possible - does he know ANY infield positions?
By fastasballs
June 11, 2007 9:44 AM | Link to this
Thanks for the article Gil. Was Reyes just up to make Buddy Carlyle’s start or will he stay?
Any RH bats down there that can play the infield, we’re dying for a Woodward replacement.
By Turning Japanese
June 11, 2007 9:51 AM | Link to this
Crime Dawg…I agree. Salty should be untouchable, but Escobar is still up in the air. Although…I wouldn’t be opposed to holding on to both and next year trying Chipper at first, Escobar at third, Salty in LF and Harris in CF
By ladbaby
June 11, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this
Its a long season. Thorman needs to hit .250+ or he is a bench warmer. Alternating Salty and McCann at first base would let both of them catch and save their legs. This approach has not been tried but it would work. Thorman needs until the all-star break to see if he can make contact consistently. We need offense and we have it available.
By Bailey
June 11, 2007 10:09 AM | Link to this
ladbaby - You’re right, Thorman needs another month. Then, if he’s still on this pace…sit him down. What about the idea of Chipper at first, Escobar at third?
By Ron Roberts
June 11, 2007 10:11 AM | Link to this
Chipper Jones has said time and time and time again….
…he won’t move to play another position again. Period.
By Jersey Gil
June 11, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this
Good Morning Braves Fan: I have to tell you this…after last night when Woodward left 5LOB runnerin the 6th, i said to my wife…that it..i can’t watch this no more, also the ESPN comentator(Joe & Joe) was get it in to my nerve…My wife was with me( and she is a Phillis fan)and also she was mad with those out of line comment about why the ump don’t do the same thing to Huddy the night before, Comentator don’t suppose to take side, look like Joe was in the Cubby side last night. I glad we won that game, we need it for the moral of the team and for the Standing Go Braves take a good day off today and come back tomorrow with another big win.
By Rodger
June 11, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this
Man if outs were homers he would be Babe Ruth…
That may be the best line of the year!
Yes, take Woodward to the woodshed-his pic is in the dictionary beside useless.
Is it possible Reteria aggrevated his hand jacking up the second baseman? And Bobby pulled him, with the injured hand excuse, because of it?
And HOW did Willie Harris manage to hide all these years? The man is playing great, his speed is making a difference, and he’s damn glad to be here-awesome!
By iwalterp
June 11, 2007 10:23 AM | Link to this
Thanks Gil for the Reyes info. I hope the Braves will watch a couple more starts, then bring him up for a spot start around the All Star game. As a 5th starter this kid would give the Braves another lefty in rotation. Everyone in east seems to have at least 2 in rotation except Braves.
l
By Shaun
June 11, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this
Jersey Gil,
Actually, I think that’s pretty valid and reasonable to wonder why Hudson wasn’t ejected only warned but Lilly was ejected without a warning. I don’t think either player should have been ejected or probably even warned, but I can understand why it was done. I just think you give players the benefit of the doubt until you absolutely cannot any longer.
Like Smoltz said in the dugout interview he did, usually the players can police themselves.
By Steve from OH
June 11, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this
I really don’t see too much wrong with this team right now except: 1. Woodward. He sucks, and when Chipper comes back he should be cut and Yunel should stay. 2. Thor. He’s sucking right now, but be patient. The kid needs more time, give him a break. I think that if we see improvement over the course of the year he can be considered a success. If not, we’ve got Salty. 3. Our pitching is struggling right now, but it will return to form. James has been pitching great lately, Huddy will be fine, and I think Smoltz will be ok too. Carlyle has encouraged me so far, and Davies, well… the jury’s still out on him. We’re slumping right now, but when everything comes together we will be the team to beat down the stretch.
By fastasballs
June 11, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this
Chipper is not moving to first base. When does does come back hopefully Woodward is relieved of his duties. With Pena being recalled today ( I assume it’s him) & Escobar going to the bench there will be a huge upgrade over what is there now. In addition Salty or McCann would be able to pinch hit earlier in the game because Pena would act as the third catcher.
Escobar would be great to spell Chipper or Renteria. The line up would not take the huge hit it has in the past when Orr or Woodward make a start.
I still think JS makes a move for a right-handed first baseman. When & who is anybody’s guess.
By Ron Roberts
June 11, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this
Something that’s been on the tip of my tongue all this weekend, but I’ve been withholding…
…if Hudson says he didn’t intend to plunk Soriano, I say believe it.
I mean, how cowardly is it to plunk the guy in retaliation for hitting three homers off ya the day before? Seriously, it’s not like Soriano disrespected the Braves’ pitchers by doing so. He didn’t make Cormier throw three gophers to him, did he? I seriously think Huddy didn’t intend to bean him; that’s that.
That being said, it should’ve been over with when a Braves’ hitter would get plunked. Unfortunately, the umps stepped in and only made the situation more tense by not allowing the Cubs to have the wiggle room to do so.
By ncscoots
June 11, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this
Berigan, re Renteria’s slide, perhaps you’re right…I just happen to not agree.
Believe me, if Edgar had been on the other side of the equation later, he would have gotten as good or better. I wouldn’t have moaned about that, either, goose and gander and whatnot.
In this case, Edgar was pretty obvious, but there are lots of subtle ways the message get sent on the basepaths, too. There are a lot more tags applied in the face than there are forearms thrown, but the gist is the same: mess with me, and you get messed with back. I happen to think that’s how you play the game…I’m too old-school for union brotherhood, LOL.
Frankly, if Edgar had gotten hit in the ribs instead of the chin, he doesn’t make the slide that way. At least, that’s the way I see it.
By Jersey Gil
June 11, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this
Shaun I agree with you 100%…but last night Joe & Joe was over..over…and over the whole games with that issue.I say in one moment before i change channel to watch the Soprano…”Give it a break”…
By Shaun
June 11, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this
Ron Roberts,
Actually, I think the Braves would have plunked Soriano for trying for a double in the 8th inning Friday with his team up 8-1. That’s where the disrespect came in. At least that’s the rationale Eric Young gave on Baseball Tonight. It wasn’t about the homers, it was about going for the extra base in a blow-out.
By knowitall
June 11, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this
It’s funny how a few weeks ago most people were calling for Diaz to play everyday. Now it seems most of you have completely forgotten about him and want Harris to play everyday. I love Harris too but he’s doing so well because he only plays against righties. Since Harris was called up, he and Diaz have the highest combined batting averages for left fielders. I’d say that this is one platoon that working quite well.
By ncscoots
June 11, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this
if Hudson says he didn’t intend to plunk Soriano, I say believe it.
Oh, man, LOL, I’ll assume that was tongue-in-cheek. He not only meant to hit him, he threw the pitch exactly where intended. Your reasoning is off because of your take on motivation: it’s not the homers, but the showboat BS that went along with them. Not to mention trying to stretch a single in a blowout game, to boot. You slather on that much mustard, you have to expect that somebody might take umbrage.
I would have knocked him down after the second homer, but that’s just me. Whenever it happened, it needed happening. Now, if only pitchers would do it to Pujols, Bonds, and other self-admirers, they might actually be able to have ERAs under 3.50 again. But that’s a post for another day.
By eric the elder
June 11, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this
During last night’s rollercoaster ride, emotions ran high and positions were staked out. The positive thinkers among us scolded the negativists, and the negative proned scoffed at the positivists.
For me, it was a relevation. Consider the four possibilties:
Optimists might be vindicated by success or disappointed by failure.
Pessimists might be vindicated by failure or pleasantly surprised by success.
My revelation is that optimists, justified or not, are less vulnerable to criticism than are pessimists, even when their skepticism is justified.
We might judge optimists to be naive or unrealistic, but we are less inclined to rag on them because there is something inherently sweet about their leanings.
Pessimists, on the other hand, are more likely to be seen as gloomy and as not good fans. They are lumped with those who don’t support the troops, which has its own level of nonsense.
Thus, to be safe from attack, we should all strive to be optimists. The only drawback is that DOB will no longer be honored for his successful blog because it will have become a swampland of mind-numbing boredom.
By DirtyDawg
June 11, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this
The thing that hasn’t been talked about enough is that whatever the Braves, and Hudson, had in mind about Soriano was more about the attempt to stretch a single into a double late in the game with a seven run lead than the three homers. That’s when the guy showed his weenie side.
And don’t get me started on the ESPN guys…the white, fat one still hasn’t gotten it straight what team, or position for that matter, Mark Derosa plays for…and the short black one seems to like to run his mouth even when he doesn’t have anything worthwhile to say - which is pretty much all the time.
I thought Renteria’s slide was ‘bush’. I mean the rookie second baseman’s 5’8”, how bad do you have to be to take it out on him? If the Braves hadn’t come back to win the story of the night would have been the kid who after taking it on the chin pretty much took it on himself to beat the Braves single-handed. I too like Renteria and going in spikes high would probably have been expected, but the shot to the nose - with the hand that was hit by the pitch, by the way, who knows he might have actually hurt it on that slide - I don’t buy it. And wonder if Bobby decided to take Edgar out so that he wouldn’t get thrown at the next at bat?
Thank goodness the Mets have been in a worse June Swoon than we have.
By Tad
June 11, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this
Ron Roberts
I will have to respectfully disagree with you about Soriano. Take a look at the 3HRs from Friday. He stood there and watched them before slowly walking to first. That is very disrespectful. I think he carried the bat to first base on the third one. Sunday he sat there and admired one too, but it didn’t quite make it out.
He does stand on top of the plate and Hudson clearly meant to get him off the plate, but I don’t think he meant to hit the leadoff hitter of the game. It led to 4 runs in the top of the first inning.
Lilly hitting Renteria was different because not only was it our best hitter in the lineup and for goodness sakes, he threw it at his FACE. If you want to send a message and only get a warning, aim for his backside. I am concerned that his hand bruise may be a lingering injury.
It was obvious to me and the home plate umpire that Lilly was intentionally throwing at Renteria.
It is too bad that both teams get warnings when a player is hit. The situation could have been resolved Saturday and not allowed to carry over to Sunday.
Everyone please make sure to vote for Edgar Renteria for the All-Star team. He really deserves it this year, along with Jose Reyes. However, he is in 4th place behind Reyes, Hardy, and Rollins.
1B: Derrick Lee 2B: Chase Utley 3B: Miguel Cabrera SS: Edgar Renteria C: Russell Martin OF: Matt Holiday, Jeff Francoeur, Carlos Lee.
By Wayne in Utah
June 11, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this
Cormier should have “taken back” the inside of the plate after homer #2, and then all would be settled several days ago. Hudson hit him on purpose, and he is not going to say so. Renteria’s slide was just to even thing up. Personally, I think it is over. Just my opinions.
As for the two headed tandem of Matt and Willie. Why screw up a good thing? With one of them on the bench at all times, it makes our bench stronger. If you play Willie at 3rd or Diaz at first on ocassion, then you weaken your defense and deplete your bench.
I know, Woodward has been a disappointment. BUT, he is just a utility infielder. We don’t normally expect much from those guys, until a guy like Chipper gets hurt. I think when Hoss returns, that will facilitate sending Orr down, and letting Woodward spell folks on a rare night off.
Also, I think Bobby wanted to see if Buddy would take the ball for one more, or maybe Buddy talked him into it. Either way, the season is long, and while a single run might have cost us a game, what is ONE game in 162. Bobby’s gotta know what he has in his players. So, if Buddy had squeaked through that inning, then we would be talking about what a gutsy move Bobby made to extend his bullpen.
I too think Devine should be up with the big club. It looks to me like we are poised to send a bullpen guy somewhere for bench help, maybe a guy like Conine or Lance Neikro of the Giants. We could send them either Villarreal, Yates, or maybe Moylan. We might be looking at another utility infielder, although with Aybar possibly being an option, maybe we are waiting on him to clean it up.
Whaddya think???
By Julia Roberts
June 11, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this
GOOD MORNING!!! I have been dealing with a c-o-n-u-n-d-r-u-m this morning! Should Bobby Cox play Salty at first instead of Thorman or should Salty be sent down? That really is a conundrum. I wrote both names on a poster board and decided to throw a d-a-r-t. Unfortunatley, the dart missed the target (like some of my posts). Have a nice day.
By Efrim
June 11, 2007 11:26 AM | Link to this
CrimeDog
If you want to dangle Yunel Escobar, you won’t get much in return for him. He has average range at shortstop and doesn’t hit for power. Good player, no doubt. But what do you expect in return for someone like him? Mark Buerhle? Joe Blanton? Bronson Arroyo? Aaron Cook?
In this market for pitching you would have to give up Salty to get anyone that would be labeled as a #3 starter. It sucks.
By G.B.
June 11, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this
Chipper Jones has been finished, he can’t stay healthy anymore, they need to send him to the American League to prolong his career has a DH!
By Efrim
June 11, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this
DOB
What do you think the Braves record will be over the next 12 games?
By David O'Brien
June 11, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this
I’ll get a new blog up shortly.
Steve From Ohio, did you watch that new HBO show, John From Cincinnati, last night? Trippy, but very good, I thought. I was so extremely disappointed by the Sopranos finale, I was glad that show started immediately afterward and quickly took me to another place.
By ncscoots
June 11, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this
…Yunel Escobar…has average range at shortstop and doesn’t hit for power.
Uh, Efrim, could I get the source for that scouting report, LOL?
By Greg O.
June 11, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this
Mr. Baseball,
First off, it was a hypothetical, but to clarify - I was asking “if you were a cubs fan/player/manager (and it’s pretty obvious that I’m not confusing you with Lou Piniella or Derek Lee), how would you feel about the bottom of the eighth with your rested closer on the mound?”
There certainly is a lot of conjecture involved. Howry would face a different part of the line-up as would Dempster. But the reality is that the Cubs bullpen (up until Dempster) did a great job. Had Lilly thrown 7 innings of two-run, nine-hit, one walk ball, that’s clearly a quality start. And that’s exactly what the Cubs did until Dempster came in. (And, by the way, Will Ohman, being a situational lefty in your hypothetical, would’ve been yanked after he, conveniently for this situation, gave up back-to-back singles to Salty and Thorman in the 4th.)
My main point is that a team has to depend on their closer for one inning of work. The Cubs didn’t get that out of Dempster - making it irrelevant that he came on in the eighth and would’ve had to convert a two-inning save. Had he blown it in the ninth after a scoreless eighth, I’d agree with your point. But Dempster was facing the bottom of the Braves’ line-up. You’re saying that under no circumstance Dempster should’ve been in the game. But the bottom line is that he’s the Cubs’ best reliever, he was in the game, and the Braves beat him. Give the Braves their credit and stop blaming the umpire for Dempster’s failure.
By BravesFanInRockies
June 11, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this
Wayne,
Much as I cringe every time I see Woodward in the lineup, you’re right. He’s supposed to be a utility player, a fill-in who gives regular players an occasional day off or comes in to play late-inning defense as part of a double switch. I don’t mind keeping him on the roster if the regulars are producing. When they aren’t, you can’t afford to carry two limited players including him and Orr (whose only value is speed).
I hope Pena gives the team a boost when he comes up. He’s hit better than .300 his ML career with almost as many walks as strikeouts. I think he’s a bit like Johnny Estrada offensively — not a lot of power (more than Orr or Woodward, granted) but puts the ball in play and gets on base.
A savior? No. A competent sub? Sure hope so!
By Turnin2
June 11, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this
I was listening to the post game show on the way home(followed by watching the very end of the Sopranos, then immediately watching the entire show on HBOW since I thought I had missed the end by flipping between it and BBT)- but, I digress… On the radio, Chip Caray (who I think took the Cubs losses much harder than the Braves losses) indicated he thought Jim over-reacted, jumped the gun, whatever his exact words were about Lilly being ejected. (btw - he made it sound like that is the ONLY reason the Cubs won last night… bull-puckey!) I totally disagree with him about tossing Lilly! Jim didn’t toss Lilly right away, it was after a few words that Lilly was gone. And I commend Jim for stepping up and not letting it get any farther than it did. And, I also think if Huddy said he didn’t plunk Soriano on purpose that he was simply backing him off the plate - I believe him. But for whatever reason - good for him and I applaud his efforts!
By Wayne in Utah
June 11, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this
BravesFan Where in the Rockies, btw? Maybe I asked that before.
Totally agreed on infielders and Pena, although I am not totally convinced he is major league material just yet. I hope so.
As for utility infielders, if they were good enough to start, they wouldn’t be on OUR bench, would they??
To be honest, I regret we did not get Escobar up earlier. He might not be an eventual all-star, but right now he looks better than anything else we have. I think Orr is toast due to his limited ability to cover other positions beyond second and third. In these days of 12-13 player pitching staffs, a team can’t afford to have a guy like Pete Orr taking up a spot. I am sure he is a nice guy, and hard working too, but…..
Our aces in the hole are Aybar and the plethora of middle infield prospects in the minors; Holt, Lillibridge, Campbell, Pope, Elvis, and a few kids in the low minors. Notice I didn’t mention Prado. I think he is a righthanded Orr. Maybe a little slower, but better with the glove. Not able to handle short, so limited in his usefulness.
What say ye?
Dave Sorry about the Soprano ending. I guess that will teach you to not watch too much tv, huh? I have the last 6-8 episodes of “24” tivo’d and waiting for a rainy day. This season has not been as good as previous ones so far.
By We Have Mets the Enemy
June 11, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this
DISAPPOINTED in the ending to “The Sopranos”? Why? How?
I thought it was fantastic.
I won’t waste space defending it except to say no one was gonna be happy with any definitive ending David Chase chose, so his solution — as well as the incredible tension and suspense he created setting it up — was brilliant.
You want Tony whacked? There’s plenty to draw from in that scene to help you believe that he was. Want the Sopranos to keep on keeping on? You, too, have foundation for a solid faith that they did. Or any position in between that you care to take.
Any Way You Want It — it’s great.
What ending would you have chosen instead?
By Shaun
June 11, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this
It’s pretty bad when the hometown fans think their own announcer is biased against their team.
Based on what announcers and writers say, I don’t think this is unique to Braves fans that they think everyone is against them but it’s funny how much some Braves fans whine about it. (And I was born and raised in Atlanta, a Braves fan.)
Turnin2,
You can agree or disagree, but I think it’s a pretty obviously valid point to question Lilly being ejected in the first inning without any warning, especially considering it seemed just as likely Hudson threw at Soriano Saturday and all he got was a warning.
By TennesseePaul
June 11, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this
I think the HBP from Hudson was a result of Soriano’s showboating more than his attempt to stretch a single into a double. After HR #3 he stood, walked, and skipped to 1B that was not cool. Not in a blow out. Personally, I could live with a guy playing hard in a blow out. But not the show boating. Crash Davis comes to mind in this respect… “What are you doing? I give you a gift and you stand there and show up my pitcher? Run d@mnit!”
Renteria’s slide, while bruttal, is part of baseball. Players go in hard after being hit. It’s the game. That’s how it’s played. Had Renteria not been hit in the face by a ball, had there not been any issues in the series up to that point, it would have been uncalled for. It would have been “chicken sh!t”. But he was hit in the face. The ump tossed the pitcher, but that’s the umps call. Renteria still had to settle it on the field between the teams. It was a fair slide in my opinion. It wasn’t like he was pulling a Ty Cobb, sliding in, metal showing, looking for blood, for no reason other than to be an @ss.
I’m proud of this team for standing up for itself. They fought back two nights in a row. They played the game right and won. Yesterdays game was fun to watch. It had it all. Highs, Lows, lead changes, drama, failure, success. Great game. Bravos showed some grit out there. I hope they can carry this into the road trip. This is the toughest stretch of baseball the team has faced all season… Twins, Indians, BoSox, Tigers. They have to play hard over the next 2 weeks. Let up just a bit and they’ll be looking at a 10 loses easy.
GO BRAVES
By Braveheart
June 11, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this
liked you 11:11 elderman. you’ve been on a roll the last few days.
hudson was not bush for hitting soriano. lilly was not bush for hitting edgar. edgar was not bush for taking out the guy at second. that’s friggin’ hard nose baseball the way it should be played. made the series a whole more fun too.
what was bush was the ump tossing lilly last night.
although i would also argue that lilly was bush and stupid for arguing with the ump after the warning was given. what the heck did he care about a warning being given at that point? how dense is he? he got his licks in. a warning was only gonna hurt the braves and not the cubs and lilly because the braves would not be able to retaliate without it costing them. if anything, lilly should have been happy the warning was given because (1) he already hit his target; (2) the warning would stop retaliation; (3) if there was retaliation it would have been costly to his struggling teams with regard to suspensions and possible injuries to his teammates, thus he was helped by the warning. what a fool
By Jim
June 11, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this
Everyone is berating Bobby for not pinch hitting for Carlyle in the bottom of the 6th last night, but who would you send in? Pete Orr? That move would surely trigger a response or two on the Blog.
With Renteria out we only had Harris, McCann, and Orr on the bench. Any player used then would not be available in the 8th. With Carlyle only throwing 77 pitches at that point it was probably a good move to try to extend him an inning and save Yates and Soriano. Our starter only went 2+ innings the night before, and the bullpen has been heavily used — especially Yates. Bobby was managing not only for the game, but for the season in trying to preseve his bullpen and use the day off to give people like Yates an extra day off. As for Carlyle being up in the 6th inning, he pitched up quite a bit all night. Other than the HR, which was more of a fly ball down the line that just eeked out, he had an otherwise uneventful inning. By conserving Harris and McCann for the 8th inning, Bobby had the pinch hitters available when needed.
One other note on the use of James to pinch run — That move allowed Bobby to bat the pitcher in the #3 spot in the order and Orr in the number 9 spot, that might come up in the 9th inning if the Cubs were to score in the top of the inning. He could have left Harris in to play 3B and save Orr for a possible future ph role, but with the lead, putting the more experienced 3B in the game was IMO the right move. Some of the more persistent critics need to watch some other team’s manager on a consistent basis and realize that their fans will be just as critical of their strategic moves as some of us are of Bobby’s
By Efrim
June 11, 2007 12:19 PM | Link to this
NCScoots
2007 BaseballAmerica Prospect Handbook
By Renegator
June 11, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this
Who cares why the umpire through Lilly out and not Hudson - what is important is that we won. We won two in a row in fact which is newsworthy when the team is playing as poorly as it has been for the past 2 - 3 weeks.
By brian
June 11, 2007 12:25 PM | Link to this
Great Post Gil and Gil in Mechanicsville. Great article on Jo-Jo. Top young, lefty pitching prospects sounds great to me, and I believe Hanson is a righty. They cannot get here soon enough.
I again like what Hudson did. It is about time the braves showed some spunk. It was not Bush league it was old school. It used to be without question or confrontation - show up the pitcher, admire your homerun, steal bases/go for a double in a blowout, expect the next pitch to you to hurt. Trouble is these days, hitters have such chips on their shoulders even an inside pitch or two (or even over the plate for those that lean over it) and the hitters are running their mouths or charging the mound. Pitchers need to take back the game. Soriano is a great player who owns the Braves, but he got a deserved wake up call.
By fastasballs
June 11, 2007 12:29 PM | Link to this
Regardless what Huddy’s intentions were he can’t come out and say “yeah I was thowing at him”, a suspension would surely follow or a fine at the least.
Wayne I agree with you on the possible trade of a bullpen arm for some bench help or right-handed first baseman.
I disagree with you on Bobby & leaving Carlyle in the game. With the off day today, bringing in Yates would have been a better move. Knowing the Cubs pen was tired, holding the lead at 1 was very important. The Cubs blew a golden opportunity with the bases loaded and none out or there was a good chance they blow the game open right there.
I understand what you’re saying about seeing what a guy can give you when he’s tired , but with the importance of last night’s game I think it was a bad decision. Leaving starters in the game too long has already cost the Braves 2-3 wins this year. That’s enough to be neck & neck with the Mets right now instead of 2 1/2 back. No I’m not Bobby bashing, just calling them as I see them.
Yes it’s a long season & one game doesn’t make or break you, but a loss last night could deflate the team. As important as last night’s game was both in the standings & for the team’s motivation Bobby needed to give them the best chance to win & leaving Carlyle in for the 7th was not the right decision as I saw it.
By Shaun
June 11, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this
How did I know TennPaul would disagree with me, even on something as simple as someone trying to stretch a single into a double in a blow-out or a player sliding in and hitting another player in the face. That’s funny.
By Turnin2
June 11, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this
Absolutely Renegator — you’re 100% correct — that is what is important and as I said, for whatever reason Tim did it, I applaud him for the effort. And I forgot to mention I also applaud Edgar for playing hard into second…. FIRED UP GUYS… and that’s what is important…
By Bailey
June 11, 2007 12:36 PM | Link to this
It seems to me that both us and the MEts are slumping, but it also looks like we may be coming out of it, while the Mets sink deeper into it.
For Example: The Mets best pitcher (Glavine) was going against a team that was missing their MVP candidate, lost ther SS to injury during the game, and they still got hammered. The Braves had Buddy Carlyle going against a team who has been on a little bit of a run, and we made a comeback to win a BIG game.
Anyone else notice the same??
By Jim
June 11, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this
Given the deficiencies of the starting rotation, it is imperative that we keep a deep bullpen. The work of Moylan, Boyer, Yates, Soriano, and Wickman on Saturday night was very impressive. It was particularly nice to see Boyer, Yates, and Soriano come in and work at 94+. I’m not convinced that Devine can make Moylan or Yates dispensable (Yates has been our most underappreciated player with his good setup work this year). The odd man out in the pen seems to be Villareal, whose only value right now is as a possible 5th starter if (Davies/Cormier/Carlyle — pick 2) don’t work out.
BTW— Any word on Renteria’s hand? I cringe at the prospect of a lineup with bot Chipper and Edgar not in it.
By Shaun
June 11, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this
Bailey,
I wouldn’t use one game to try to determine any trends in the NL East (or in any other race).
By Wayne in Utah
June 11, 2007 12:46 PM | Link to this
fastasballs not to be argumentative, as I do see your side. I will try to explain my thoughts a tad bit better.
If you look at that decision in a vacuum, it was probably not a smart move. If you look at it in the context of how Bobby manages his team, then it is closer to being understandable. Maybe the fact that he is the players manager, and sticks with his guys longer than others might, just might have been the little that it takes to bring on the successful inning where we do score 3 and take the lead. Does that make sense. He wins over the confidence of his players by doing things like that, that in turn might cause them to be more focused for him and the team.
OR, maybe it was just a dumb move, that ended up resulting in a win. Pure dumb luck, as some here would call it. I, personally, like to think it is all part of the big picture that is the culture of the Atlanta Braves (take that Robert and Nate!!!)
:-)
By David O'Brien
June 11, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this
Efrim, I’ve had discussion regarding that Escobar scouting report (when he got called up, I had forgotten he’d slipped from No. 3 prospect to No. 10 by BA in one year, and wanted to know why).
Anyway, I’m told he’s much more highly regarded now than when that was put together, that book. After his performance in the Arizona Fall League, then his work in spring, his much improved attitude, his good start this season in the minors, and what he’s shown so far in the majors, he’s opened a lot of eyes. Not saying they’d get a good pitcher for him (as you pointed out, the market is completely a sellers market for pitchers right now), but just saying he’s better-regarded than that book indicates.
And he’s got some pop, especially for a shortstop. Got a very good line-drive swing. I wouldn’t be surprised if he hits 15 homers in a season soon, which is pretty damn good for a shortstop whose forte is line-drive hitting. His range is fine, nothing exceptional, but his arm is top-of-the-charts. A cannon. Not Furcal’s cannon, but not too far below it.
By Bailey
June 11, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this
Shaun…I understand, but the Braves have had a horrible June so far, and have gained ground in the East race. The Mets are hurt right now, as are the Braves, but we have gus coming in and fitting right in, while the Mets dont have that.
By GT80
June 11, 2007 1:00 PM | Link to this
DOB needs to get an award for wading through some of the rantings of you folks. For all the people with sanity, here’s one way that we can deal with N8 and Robert and their incessant ravings against Bobby Cox, just ignore them. I know it’s hard but if nobody replied back to N8 and Robert, maybe they would just find each other at a corner bar and they could trash Bobby to their hearts content without bothering us.
That was a great win for the Bravos last night, really important as they go off on this tough road trip. Only 2.5 games back, Chipper coming back, Cormier gone, Redman gone…things are looking up.
And something else to think about to give you good feelings about the Bravos…realize how many rookies and 2nd year guys we have playing full time. This team is gonna be good for years to come.
By Braveheart
June 11, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this
I think the hudson beaning was twofold: partly because of the showboating and probably most triggered by the trying to stretch the thing into a double. In my days playing ball, one year, we were getting killed, the other team kept stealing bases even though they were up by 10 runs, the coach kept giving the catcher and the freshman pitcher the bullhorns, meaning nail the hitter. the freshman pitcher would not hit the guy for who knows what reason. Coach to this day is probably still cursing out the kid trying to figure it out. Coach promptly yanked the kid, looked down at me sitting there like a dunce on the bench charting pitches, and ordered me to get in there without any warmups and plunk away until I got myself tossed. Because I did it, I got my first college start in a conference game a few days later. My coaches and teammates gained alot of respect and love for me because of it. A rather timid brawl thereafter ensued with a lot of pushing, swearing, name calling and macho posturing. Fun stuff. I’ll never forget that. Not that anyone cares very much at all about random musings about my life experiences. But just thought I would share that regardless.
By Greg O.
June 11, 2007 1:04 PM | Link to this
Let’s all just remember that had Bobby pinch hit for Carlyle in the 6th, the moves he made in the 8th/9th wouldn’t have been possible. You can argue that McCann’s at bat was irrelevant because they walked him, but I don’t think they would’ve been as careful to pitch around Woodward or Orr (the only other guy left on the bench in the 9th) in that situation - which may have led to the passed ball.
By ncscoots
June 11, 2007 1:07 PM | Link to this
Thanks, DOB, you beat me to it on Escobar re Efrim’s scouting report. I imagine that early season report had much basis in his poor showing at AA last year. Slugging .450 at AAA and maintaining that at the ML level indicates that his pull power, while not quite there yet, might come in the future.
BTW, for the numbers folks, Furcal’s arm is rated 80 (top of the scale); Escobar’s arm has been rated 70 by more than one scout (no, I can’t quote ‘em, just remember seeing it in more than one place).
By TennesseePaul
June 11, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this
Payne: You stated otherwise? I didn’t see that post. But now that I scroll back up I see your reasoning is because a guy on ESPN said so.
I was merely stating what I thought. As a former pitcher when I played ball, way way back in the day, hard play never bummed me out, but show boating always did. Hustling like mad to get in scoring position, even in a blow out, wouldn’t p!ss me off near as much as standing and watching a HR.
It will never be disclosed though, because, as I posted the other night, Tim Hudson and the Braves took the “Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds was not about LSD” stance.
By GT80
June 11, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this
DOB, how many years do the Braves have Renteria under contract for? I can see Escobar being groomed as his replacement. Especially if Edgar has one of those balloon payment years coming. MAybe a trade of Edgar instead of the young gun could be in the works. Not saying that will happen this year but maybe next.
And in spite of what the ESPN guy (I’m blanking on his name right now, you know, the Paul McCartney look alike) says, I think somehow, someway the Braves are gonna re-sign Andruw J. We just have to get through the nightmare Hampton contract situation for next year and then there is money available. Andruw is trying his best to make himself affordable.
By Braveheart
June 11, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this
It will never be disclosed though, because, as I posted the other night, Tim Hudson and the Braves took the “Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds was not about LSD” stance.
love that analogy.
By Efrim
June 11, 2007 1:16 PM | Link to this
DOB
NcScoots
I agree. His stock has risen since that book was published. But my point is that he won’t net you a starter that could help this team. Teams will want Salty for a guy like Aaron Cook. Which is insane. Bu that is the market for pitching right now. Its a sellers market.
By April
June 11, 2007 1:18 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, I couldn’t help but be impressed with your 1:04 post. In fact, I feel all flushed now. I like strong, daring men. I thought I’d found one here earlier but he turned out to be a disappointment. How tall are you, sugar?
By Shaun
June 11, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this
TennesseePaul,
That guy on ESPN was Eric Young and Hershiser was sitting right beside him and didn’t disagree.
I think both are valid motives for wanting to get “even.”
Looking back at all the facts, I think it was because of Soriano’s overall attitude (admiring homers and getting greedy in a blow-out) plus maybe Hudson just wanted to brush him back because he obviously seemed too comfortable the game before.
Maybe Hudson was telling the truth when he said he wasn’t trying to hit him, but I suspect he didn’t mind hitting him.
By Lew
June 11, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this
As I have been trying to point out all season long and last night gives credence to my claims-There just isn’t any pitching available and everyone needs it. Look at yesterday’s games. Phillies pitching gave up 17 runs to the Royals-THE ROYALS!!!The Mets gave up 15 runs. The Marlins gave up 9. The Pirates, who supposedly have all this great young pitching gave up 13 runs. I’m sure there were more stellar pitching performance. The point is that there just isn’t anyone out there any better than who we have already and if there were, there are more than enough bidders for their services. The price to be paid would be way out of our range and would likely hurt us in the coming years.
By eric the elder
June 11, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this
Braveheart, thanks for the nice words, and back atcha. I really enjoy those anecdotals about the glory days of our youth.
By Lew
June 11, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this
GT80-Renteria is under contract through next year with an option (a club option, I believe) for 09.
By David O'Brien
June 11, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this
GT80, Renteria is signed through next year, with an $11 mill option for 2009 (the Red Sox pay the buyout if the Braves don’t pick up that option).
By TennesseePaul
June 11, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this
Payne: Oh. Eric Young suggested and the Bull Dog continued to stare at the teleprompt as confirmation. OK. I stand corrected.
Sheesh. Just offered my opinion in response to Berigen’s post and this is what comes out of it. I still say Soriano’s showboating was the main cause. But what the hell difference it makes I don’t know. In sumation, Soriano’s showboating lead to his beaming. Lilly’s head hunting lead to Renteria’s hard slide. Lilly’s ejection was up to the umps. Braves win. Even the series, take the season. I have no stats on this, just what I saw and what I’ve learned from personal experience of playing the game.
By Lew
June 11, 2007 1:44 PM | Link to this
Shaun-Miller and Morgan kept whining about the Umpire’s decision all night, wondering why Hudson hadn’t been rung up. I was listening to XM Home Plate this morning on the way back from the eye doctor and they were talking about Soriano’s theatrics admiring his HR’s and stretching a single into a double with an 8 run lead. They seemed to feel running up the score was more than enough reason for Soriano to get nailed. They seemed to think it was more than justified.
By TennesseePaul
June 11, 2007 1:47 PM | Link to this
Lew: Don’t forget the Dodgers 11 runs. Jason Schit started. He gave up a slew to the Jays in 4+. I was at this game. I’d hoped to see Thomas hit #500 this weekend but he didn’t. Schit can’t throw these days. Not 1 fastball topped out over 88 mph. And only 1 got that fast. The rest were 87 or less.
By Lee
June 11, 2007 1:49 PM | Link to this
The so-called lovable Cubs have not been so lovable since the Bartman incident and their actual choking of that series against the Marlins. Recently a pitcher fighting a catcher really helped their credibility. And let us not forgot Dusty Baker and Sweet Lou - both jerks in their own right. Hudson you are my hero. May the Billy-goat curse live on and may the Braves’ winning steak continue.
By Renegator
June 11, 2007 2:05 PM | Link to this
DOB or Shaun or anyone else:
How many pitchers have tied or set their career record for number of strikeouts in a game - against the Braves?
Anyone know where to look that up?
By Shaun
June 11, 2007 2:07 PM | Link to this
Lew,
I don’t think Hudson should have received a warning and I don’t think Lilly should have been ejected. I agree that Hudson going in on Soriano was justified.
I’m of the opinion, you let the players play it out and give them the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. If it’s extremely obvious that a guy is head-hunting, then you do something.
I understand what the umpires are trying to do and that a lot of times they are just following orders from their bosses but I think players should get the benefit of the doubt.
I think if a Cubs pitcher would have thrown at a Brave after Hudson had hit Soriano in that same game, that’s when you issue a warning.
Then if the Braves had hit someone after Lilly hit Renteria, that’s when you issue a warning.
This is just my opinion. I understand the umpires have a difficult job because they have to balance stopping brawls with not reading too much into inside pitches, HBP, etc.
By Lew
June 11, 2007 2:08 PM | Link to this
TenPaul-And the Angels and Rangers each gave up 9 runs, too. Like I said-I have no idea where all this pitching people expect us to run out and acquire is going to come from. Not only that, but they expect us to mortgage the future, giving up Salty, Escobar and God Knows Who for pitchers like Tomo Ohka, who aren’t even as good as who we have. Our whole problem has been driving in runs. All the pitching in MLB went south a long time ago. There are so few quality pitchers, it’s amazing we have three pretty decent ones ourselves. Any pitching problems we have are likely to have to be dealt with from within. We can’t afford the price that will be asked. Like someone mentioned earlier-it’s a seller’s market. What I’d really like to see acquisitions-wise is some RH power off the bench that can play first-what we aere supposed to be getting with Craig Wilson.
By Stuart
June 11, 2007 2:15 PM | Link to this
The main difference between Soriano getting hit and Renteria getting drilled is that Soriano hangs out over the plate. Renteria stands straight up. Renteria had no chance and would have gotten hit in the face if he did not get his hand up. Soriano got hit in the arm, and turned into the pitch.
The best thing that could have happened was the umpire to allow one of our guys to get hit on Saturday, then issue the warning and none of this would have happened.
Joe Morgan likes to kiss up to big market teams. That is why the always take the side of whoever is playing the Braves.
I am glad Huddy has some spit and vinegar, we need more of that. Soriano only took two good swings the rest of the weekend after getting plunked.
By TennesseePaul
June 11, 2007 2:24 PM | Link to this
Lew: Well put. I was impressed with Buddy last night. That’s two strong outings for the guy. I’d like to see him get more starts. He could be what I thought Cormier would be, a solid back end of the rotation guy who can keep you in the game. Time will tell though. So far the curse of Redman hasn’t taken him down.
And as long as we are regurgitating whatever we hear on ESPN sports broadcasts, I liked what Carlyle had to say about his second win. About the his perspective of the game from all his years between wins. Sounds like his head is in the right place.
By Shaun
June 11, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this
Renegator,
I’m not sure. I do know the Braves rank 7th in baseball in hitter strikeouts. But the Phillies, Indians, Rangers and Marlins all rank higher in both runs scored and hitter strikeouts.
ESPN list the top games by Game Score and top strikeout games:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/bestgames
Game Score: Start with 50 points. Add 1 point for each out recorded, (3 points per inning). Add 2 points for each inning completed after the 4th. Add 1 point for each strikeout. Subtract 2 points for each hit allowed. Subtract 4 points for each earned run allowed. Subtract 2 points for each unearned run allowed. Subtract 1 point for each walk.
Only game vs. the Braves on either list is Jason Bergmann’s 5/14 start (8th in Game Score).
By Shaun
June 11, 2007 2:30 PM | Link to this
Stuart,
Joe Morgan often praises Bobby Cox (and rightfully so).
By AthensBrave
June 11, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this
Last night I sat in left field next to the Cubs bullpen. There is an elevated platform where the bullpen players can watch the game which is directly next to the fans. Ryan Dumpster was interacting with fans the whole night before he pitched. He was talking fantasy baseball with a drunk guy, flirting w/ a nasty-a* groupie, sweet-talking this old grandmother usher, and at one point made a bet w/ a guy that Soriano would hit a homer. Soriano hit the ball to the wall, but Dempster didn’t pay up. His goofing off bit him in the a*, as he obviously was not focused. When he was leaving the bullpen we yelled at him not to blow it, and my friend was certain that he would. It was inevitable he said
By knowitall
June 11, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this
I think errored in throwing Lilly out of the game for 2 reasons: 1) He didn’t warn the teams before the game and 2) He didn’t throw him out immediately. If he was expecting someone to get hit, as he said, then why didn’t he warn the teams before the game? Then it was almost like he had to think about it before he threw him out. I mean I can’t be sure but it didn’t look like Lilly said anything afterwards to escalate the situation to the point where the ump had to throw him out. As a Braves fan I’ll take it because things were not off to a good start. But as an objective viewer, the ump was flat out wrong for the ejection.
By TennesseePaul
June 11, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this
Stuart: Soriano only took two good swings the rest of the weekend after getting plunked.
So true. Should have done this years ago and then he probably wouldn’t have feasted on us all this time. He was on a multi game hit streak when Hudson drilled him. It all came to a crashing hault for him after that. It’s what the team needed to do and I’m glad they did it.
By Wayne in Utah
June 11, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this
Who would you trade from our relief corps for Ryan Theriot of the Cubs?
By TennesseePaul
June 11, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this
Another thing I liked about this fringe brawl… It showed the rookies how to fight back. It seemed, with Chipper out of the game, that the rookies always looked a little lost when down in a game. But this weekend they saw the fire of the big leagues from both sides. It’s like they’re part of it all now. The last boundary was laid out.
Sure hope they stick wit the fire and go on a role. Doing well on this next trip would do wonders to boost team confidence.
By Renegator
June 11, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this
Thanks Shaun - that was kind of what I was looking for.
For example: Ben Sheets set his career high strikeouts per game when he struck out 18 two years ago. Just this year, both Rich Hill and Sean Marshall of the Cubs tied their career high in strikeouts against the Braves.
I was just wondering if there was a way to look up pitchers career high strikeout games and who they are against. It would seem (with the Braves hitting approach - or lack there of) that many would be against the Braves.
I was just seeing if anyone knew where to find that type of info…
By Bob
June 11, 2007 2:54 PM | Link to this
Knowitall,
I agree with you on the Ump’s decision. Had he immediately thrown out Lilly and then told Pinella that the reason was that the pitcher was throwing at Edgar’s head, I would have said good to go. Only Renteria’s quick reflex prevented him from being beaned in the noggin. But the ump seemed hesitant and seemed to wait forever to have thrown him out. He should have given both teams warnings and let it go from there. On the other hand, I don’t blame Edgar for being p** off. After all, getting hit in the head is much different than where Soriano got nailed. The Cub second baseman should have expected Edgar to come in very hard on that steal.
By Shaun
June 11, 2007 2:55 PM | Link to this
Renegator,
What’s wrong with the Braves approach? They’ve been in the top 10 in runs scored in all of baseball the past three seasons so far, including this one. It’s what you do in between strikeouts that matter.
By DonCoburleone
June 11, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this
“GT80, Renteria is signed through next year, with an $11 mill option for 2009 (the Red Sox pay the buyout if the Braves don’t pick up that option).”
That is a BARGAIN in my opinion… Of course, with our pinched payroll and stockpile of middle-infielders in the minors it may be wise to pass on that option. DOB, lets say Escobar stays with the big-league club the rest of the year and plays well; do you think there is a chance of Renteria being traded in the offseason and moving Escobar to SS?
By Bob
June 11, 2007 3:11 PM | Link to this
DOB or anyone else,
Has anyone heard of any attempt by the Braves to get Ken Griffey Jr? Apparently it has been a topic of discussion on WFAN in New York this afternoon. Friend of mine told me about it but I haven’t seen anything here locally. He had no idea who we were supposedly going to give up for Jr. I told him I would package Orr and Woodward for Junior, but doubt the Reds would bite on that one. LOL
By Renegator
June 11, 2007 3:15 PM | Link to this
Shaun:
I’m not saying there is anything wrong with their approach - I’m just saying their approach causes them to have a high strike out total.
By SteelCav
June 11, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this
Bob - not the first time that rumor has been circulated. I seriously doubt the Braves would be that interested. Our LF platoon is doing just fine and he is not a long-term solution (too much $$$ and risk).
By Wayne in Utah
June 11, 2007 3:25 PM | Link to this
DonC Biggest issue with trading either Edgar or Escobar (either during the season or in the off-season) is the uncertainty of Chipper and his health concerns. Sure would be good if we could keep all on-board to ensure we always have a decent man off the bench (note all the complaining about Woodward and Orr on this blog).
I hear where you are coming from though. We need to improve in a couple of areas, and we need to be able to deal from strength to get something of value in return.
Along those lines, I think we could get someone like Jeff Conine from Cincy for a minor league prospect or two, and probably not our top prospects. Also, this kid Esquivel is really pounding the ball in Mississippi. Does he have the ability to play first as well as the outfield???
The Giants had Joe Neikro’s kid playing out there for a while, and he had an OK righty bat, but I don’t think he is on their current roster.
We could also use another starter, but I am not sure if I would be willing to trade Saltalamacchia or Escobar for a summer rental. For Salty to go, it has to be somebody like Matt Cain or someone of that level.
Whaddya think?
By Bob
June 11, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this
SteelCav,
That’s what I told my friend. Seems like we have other needs and would not want to give up a young player for Junior. I love the guy, but don’t think he is what we need right now. Hoooah.
By Shaun
June 11, 2007 3:29 PM | Link to this
Renegator,
Maybe so. But their approach seems to be leading to a high run total also, so I’m not too worried about their offense.
By Wayne in Utah
June 11, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this
Junior only comes to Atlanta as a salary dump by Cincinnati. I could see Schuerholz doing it if he was pretty certain AJ was going away. Junior would be a one or two year patch in CF at the most.
By ncscoots
June 11, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this
Efrim, got your point there, my man. You’re right about available pitching, no debate. It just sounded somewhat as if you thought Escobar would bring little because of his flaws rather than because of the overall dearth of pitching. No big deal, it’s all good.
By Randy
June 11, 2007 3:35 PM | Link to this
DonCoburleone: I know you asked DOB, but I really think the Braves are in the catbird seat when it comes to Renteria. I absolutely love him, would love for the Braves to pick up that 2009 year, but the structure of the contract along with the depth backing up Renteria provides the Braves with many options. If they don’t want to pay that $11 mil in 2009 they can shop him without the downside of being “stuck” with his salary in 2009 (they can just not pick it up and the Red Sox pay the buyout). And they wouldn’t just be shopping a 2-3 month rental of Renteria, they would be offering Renteria for a full year (at least) giving a chance to get more value in return in any potential trade. All this really allows the Braves maximum flexibility.
By Shaun
June 11, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this
SteelCav and Bob,
Yeah, I think the Braves should only go for Griffey if the Reds will take a mid-grade prospect/mediocre player and cash.
I suppose I wouldn’t be too surprised to see a Griffey-Braves trade down the line, if the Reds continue to slide farther down in the standings.
I just don’t know if the Braves would go for it with his salary and I don’t know if the Reds would go for it if they have to pay a large portion of his salary anyway (why trade him in that case?). I suppose the Reds may do it out of respect if he wants to play for a winner one last time.
I’m also not sure his contract status.
Adam Dunn could also be traded, as he’s a free agent. But I don’t think the Braves would be willing to give up what it would likely take to get him when they already have decent options in LF. But if Thorman continues to struggle, could the Braves make a run at Dunn as a 1B?
By geauxbraves2000
June 11, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this
If Soriano would stop admiring his shots and stop walking down the line, just stop showboating, if he would just run, then all of this probably could have been avoided. I have no problem with someone admiring their shot, even locating which seat it may fall in, just do it while they are running.
Just my 10 cents minus 8.
Geaux Braves!!
By DAP
June 11, 2007 3:45 PM | Link to this
i didnt see renteria get hit with the pitch live, i only saw and heard replays, but it seemed to me like the ump didnt throw out lilly immediatly. he said lilly threw at renteria’s head, which is certinly grounds for ejection, but could it be that lilly did something else to aggravate renteria or the ump before he was ejected? just wondering.
By Tyler
June 11, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this
Any word on what’s going on with J.C. Romero? Is he being put on waivers?
By flange1
June 11, 2007 3:50 PM | Link to this
Hi All,
The Griffey things is a little interesting! I keep thinking if we can get a full time left fielder, we can move Diaz back to top RH pinch hitter and part time LF, RF or 1B, Harris as top LH pinch hitter and make him first back up at SS and 2B.
A full time left fielder would sure help out our pitiful bench!
By Renegator
June 11, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this
Is it just me - or is it SOOO much nicer around here without those Muts fans. I love it when they are on a losing streak because their fans disappear.
By jed
June 11, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this
about edgar renteria: it amazes me that people here still dont “get it.” no one here would say “hey, escobar looks good…maybe we should have him play 3rd and trade chipper.” but sure enough, that’s what i hear about renteria. at this point, renteria is far more valuable to this team than chipper is. plus he’s signed for 2/3 of chipper’s salary. it’s real simple: you keep renteria. maybe move him to a new infield position (1b or 3b, eventually), but you certainly dont trade him. pay attention, folks. chipper doesnt produce like he did five years ago.
By jed
June 11, 2007 4:12 PM | Link to this
also, since i’m in a bad mood, i gotta say i’m sick of people saying we should make some big trade for a first baseman. why not just move chipper to 1b when he’s off the DL? (“ooooh! gasp! in the middle of the season? why that’s UNTHINKABLE! the sky will fall!!!!”) or, send salty to the minors and teach him the galdarn position! point being: it’s hard to have a worse 1b than thor. hells bells—do something already with the options you have! those options are in-house. no need trading the future for adam dunn or ken griffey or whoever else, when you dont need to. all you need is PITCHING. A. STARTING. PITCHER.
By David O'Brien
June 11, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this
Flange1, gotta admit, the more I think of the Griffey situation, the more I have to say it does have some attraction, since it’s no future commitment involved. But it just seems like LF platoon is doing fine, not producing any power, but Braves are getting that elsewhere. They’re hitting for high average, and it just seems like they have such glaring other needs _ a starter, a veteran bat that can play 1B and some OF, rather than another pure OF, perhaps another lefty reliever….
OK, NEW BLOG IS UP
By Bob, Journalist
June 11, 2007 4:17 PM | Link to this
Berigan, I’m taking things easy today but just saw your earlier post while strolling through the park ….
As memory serves, what I said was triggered by what I thought were Coach’s rather humorous comments regarding my impression of his intelligence compared to that of our Mr. Cox.
I wasn’t meaning to suggest that Bobby’s decision was the one of choice or that I would have agreed with his reasoning had I known what that was … only that we are not in a good position to judge and that publicly so doing is frought with peril.
Back in the old days when my posts reflected a slightly different perspective, I used to frequently belabor the point that the why is more important than the what … that folks almost always have their reasons for doing that which they do … and that it is incumbent on us to seek an understanding of their motivation.
I currently pretend to myself that I no longer to so do; belabor the point that is … lest I find myself too full of the milk of human kindness.
Most decisions involve many layers of the onion, including those surrounding the “Hudson” incident … but after much deliberation, I’ve narrowed it down to two … I personally think it most likely that Hudson’s actions on Saturday were either for the purpose of getting Lily thrown out of Sunday’s game so that we could get into Lou’s head, and his bullpen … or to serve notice to the Twins that we haven’t forgotten their showing up Lonnie in 1991.
I can’t decide which but I know that there are a few who would disagree with both and agree that it is best that folks reach their own conclusions … no need to identify the obvious exeptions, as that too might be taboo.
Another thing should be obvious regardless of the onion … hotdogs may be better at the Varsity than at the Ted but there are ways to fix them that will please most any palate.
Speaking of which, mine are about ready for tasting!
By knowitall
June 11, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this
If I’m not mistaken, I believe DOB addressed the Griffey rumors a few days ago by basically saying that Griffey would be like number 100 on a list of priorities as far as the Braves are concerned.
By Mitchie-san
June 11, 2007 4:22 PM | Link to this
I would like to see the Braves go after Rowand… I think he would be a great fit.