Braves

By Carroll

March 9, 2007 2:18 PM | Link to this

I think this is a good signing. I mean, it costs us virtutally nothing in terms of money, we didn’t give anyone up to get him in a trade, and the guy’s numbers are extremely comparable to those of Ted Lilly who just signed a huge contract. They have both been in the league since 99, are similar styles of pitchers, Lilly has a 4.6 career ERA while Redman has a 4.65, Lilly has a 1.378 WHIP to Redman’s 1.405; Redman has more wins, but a slightly lower winning percentage. I also remember Redman being a huge cog in the Marlins WS run a few years back. Like I said this seems like a no-lose situation.

By ssiscribe

March 9, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

Lillibridge pinch-hit single in the sixth (first hit of the spring for the baby-faced former Pirates prospect), followed by a broken-bat homer (yes, broken-bat homer) by Kelly Johnson off Japanese pitcher Masumi Kuwata.

3-0 Braves in the sixth.

—30—

By TennesseePaul

March 9, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

Carroll, when you take over the blog, the team goes through serious changes. I appreciate the work, but we might have to rethink this DOB day off.

By Bubba

March 9, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

Solid pickup who can eat some innings for us. Any ideas on his price tag or because its a minor leauge contract does he get more if he is on the roster. I think aybar should get a chance at 2nd and leadoff but I dont get paid the big bucks to make those decisions.

By ssiscribe

March 9, 2007 2:26 PM | Link to this

Craig Wilson continues his hot hitting, an RBI single making it 4-0 Braves in the sixth. Fifth RBI of the spring, giving him the team lead.

Inning now over. Five hits in the innings, three runs. 4-0 Braves.

—30—

By Steve-O

March 9, 2007 2:27 PM | Link to this

Awesome, Chucky J!!

By ElbravoX

March 9, 2007 2:31 PM | Link to this

Carolina Lady landed a job with AJC!

By Bob, journalist

March 9, 2007 2:31 PM | Link to this

Carroll, old timers like me need advanced notice when the Blog changes … it usually takes me couple of hours before I realize I’m talkin to myself … of course, I do get good responses … some of my best work.

By ssiscribe

March 9, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

Young Matt Harrison has developed quite a following here in the Braves/ManInBlack blogosphere, but the kid’s probably not ready for prime time just yet.

Ronnie Paulino just hit a long homer to right-center, a two-run shot to cut the Braves lead in half, 4-2.

—30—

By jh

March 9, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

It doesn’t blow my socks off, but it’s probably the best move they could make under the circumstances. And remember that most pitchers improve once they get in the Braves system (except for Dan Kolb and a couple of other losers).

By jim

March 9, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

You can get the live box score for free on mlb.com

By True Braves Fan

March 9, 2007 2:39 PM | Link to this

Anybody beside me believe that Matt Harrison will take his “potential” to the minors this year, and the sooner the better? Redmon signing is probably good protection, but I hope Davies and Cormier will be given a chance before the 4th spot is just handed to Redmon.

By ssiscribe

March 9, 2007 2:42 PM | Link to this

Ryan Langerhans hits his second homer of the spring, a line-drive solo shot off Pittsburgh reliever and Douglasville native Matt Capps, with one out in the seventh.

5-2 Braves in the seventh.

—30—

By Spider29

March 9, 2007 2:45 PM | Link to this

No-brainer to me as to the signing of Redman. I am not expecting Cy Young but think he can help us in that 4th starter role. I also feel more comfortable with Davies and Cormier competing for the fifth starter role and having one of them win the job. I do believe one of them will step up and be solid.

By ElbravoX

March 9, 2007 2:50 PM | Link to this

I can smell Dan Kolb fro here (southern cali). Awful easterly winds.

By Glass Half Full

March 9, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

Like the Redman signing. Despite my optimistic moniker, I have little confidence in Davies and a full recovery by Hampton. That’s reminds me…let’s say Hampton’s career is over after this season. Doesn’t that free up about $15 million which could be used in a variety of ways (read “re-sign Andruw Jones.”).

By ernesto

March 9, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

Redman doesn’t exactly excite the way say, signing Maddux did, but what the hell? We turned Shane Reynolds around resurrected Burkette who knows? If nothing else we’ve added a little much needed depth. I can’t even remember the names of some of the warm bodies we put on the mound last year to spot start.

By Ron Roberts

March 9, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

Frankly, I can’t believe the guy was available, given the dearth of starting pitching in the majors. I mean, KC over-paid (I think) to get Meche, but they couldn’t keep Redman around?

Shoot, if they still had Redman people might actually consider them a team worthy of playing against major league squads once in awhile.

Good pickup; would’ve been a great pickup if Hampton hadn’t gone down, but now a crucial pickup after his injury. Besides, it puts us back where we were when we were looking to use Hampton, in my opinion. He steps into the “veteran starter who could be good, probably will be serviceable and might be awful” role quite well.

Meanwhile, if Lance and/or Oscar impress in the fifth spot, we’re fine.

By 3trees

March 9, 2007 2:59 PM | Link to this

Hey, Carroll, me mum’s family is from NC and good choice in BBQ. Now, music, it depends on which ’80s yer talking about - the Duran Duran 80’s or the Mats/Los Lobos/Pretenders 80’s.

Thanks for the updates, scribe. Come on Langy!

Not sure what to think about the Redman signing. Insurance, I guess. That leaves Oscar in long relief at least (for the time being). We’ll see, but I was hoping to see one of the farm hands come out of the blue. I’m a fan, not a GM, so I’ve got that luxury.

By True Braves Fan

March 9, 2007 2:59 PM | Link to this

Anyone notice that Betemit is hitting .071 for the Dodgers this spring through yesterday’s game?

By ssiscribe

March 9, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

Los Bravos have broken it wide open in Bradenton. Brayan Pena’s bases-clearing double caps a rally that started with two outs and nobody on in the eighth, scoring Blanco, Bohn and Escobar to make it 8-2 Braves.

Carroll, no problem on the late blog. You’ve had other fish to fry. And to think, all of this happens while DOB is off. Coincidence? Maybe. Enjoy the seabreezes and palm trees down that way.

—30—

By Chop Chop

March 9, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

Pope Leo turned those guys around. Roger McDowell hasn’t proven that he can get the most out of anyone yet. We’ll see what he can do with Redman, but I’m not holding my breath.

I like how Bobby Cox used the “…but Redman was an All-Star last year” comment to try to make people feel better about his signing. Every team gets an All-Star in the bigs, and Redman wasn’t any good at the break. He didn’t deserve to be in the game and he proved it with his numbers in the second half of the season (5-6, 6.14 ERA…115 hits in 85 IP). Since the Braves have a tough schedule early on, Redman will have to be solid, not just a “warm body”.

By Fed Up

March 9, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

This is a great move. Redman can eat innings. And who knows, with a good team behind him, he could win games.

By ssiscribe

March 9, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

“Now pitching for the Pirates in the ninth, Dan Kolb …”

All together now: BOO!

—30—

By ssiscribe

March 9, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

And in case you need it, Kolb is a non-roster invitee wearing No. 87.

—30—

By eware

March 9, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

I like this signing, even if Hampton hadn’t gotten hurt. Let’s remember that Redman probably would have had a better 2006 had he played for any other team.

We need more starting depth, and we just got it for cheap. He has major league experience, so even if he’s in the minors, it’s beneficial to the team in case another starter goes down.

Great job, JS.

By Choppy the Tomahawk

March 9, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

Maybe I am just not reading the right articles, but I haven’t heard anything about Andruw Jones, Brian McCann, Edgar Renterie or Jeff Francouer this spring. I am expecially interested in Francoeur because I think a big part of his struggles last year were due to his missing nearly all of spring training because of the WBC.

If anyone has any info on those players I would love to hear about it.

By Rodger

March 9, 2007 3:22 PM | Link to this

As reclamations go, we’ll see how McDowell stacks up against Mazzone, huh?

All can say, is I hope Chipper is making a drive thru run for everyone.

By DAP

March 9, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

i dont mean to sound like robert, but what cox said about redman was pretty stupid. he said he was surprised he hadnt been signed yet, cause he made the all-star team last year.

he went to the all-star game for the royals, who wouldnt even have a representative if there wasnt a rule that every team had to have one. so maybe he was the best pitcher for the royals… whoo hoo.

that being said i do like the signing, but lets not act like this is a bigger deal than it is. this guy is a veteran who will give us innings, and i think he will help alot with our situation… but its still matt redman, so the team didnt just improve a ton.

By Dave

March 9, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

What a lucky gal. Although I got you beat. I’m in South Beach. Say hi to Reds for me and wish him luck.

By Mike S

March 9, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

Redman was named to the All-Star team and Royals pitcher of the year last year. But I guess that means nothing other than the fact that the Royals is the team where players go to die. Pretty good #4 guy. And now we can split the lefties.

By Gustopher

March 9, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this

Eastern BBQ is the best!

By Gustopher

March 9, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this

Eastern NC BBQ is the best

By ElbravoX

March 9, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

Feel sorry for Kolb-not!

By Greg in TN

March 9, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

Hey everyone…

First and foremost, Go Braves!

The Redman signing is taking a chance on this guy returning to the same form he had in 2003 with the Fins than the guy that’s been hit pretty good in the last couple of years. Hey, it’s worth a shot to sign this guy to a minor league deal and see what happens tomorrow against the Jays. Realistically, if we’re going to make a move immediately, this was the type of move that was going to have to happen (taking a chance on a guy not already in a camp somewhere and hoping to roll a 7 instead of snake eyes). Very few teams will entertain trades at this point in the spring, and those that do, will certainly want too much in terms of prospects for a basement-of-the-rotation type of guy.

By Shaun

March 9, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

Chop Chop,

Redman could give the Braves as much as Hampton could early on. Again, I don’t think Hampton was going to be all that impressive early on anyway.

I think someone brought it up yesterday, but maybe this will actually help him. It allows him to rest his arm a little longer.

By ernesto

March 9, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this

Anyone know what we’re paying Senor Redman?

By Renegator

March 9, 2007 3:30 PM | Link to this

Carroll:

Nice job comparing the stats of Redmon to Lilly - that really puts it in perspective. I think this is a good signing - like you said, it really doesn’t cost us anything.

You said you are a Carolina girl - is that North Carolina or South?

Keep up the good work.

By ssiscribe

March 9, 2007 3:39 PM | Link to this

Manny Acosta is getting hit hard in the ninth. Three runs in, two runners on and the lead has been cut to 8-5.

—30—

By ssiscribe

March 9, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this

And as soon as I file that, Acosta gets a strikeout to end it. Los Bravos 8, Le Bucos 5, final from Bradenton. Braves now 6-2-1 in the pursuit to win the Grapefruit League title and make Big Burly Bob Wickman buy a bunch of TVs.

—30—

By ncscoots

March 9, 2007 3:41 PM | Link to this

Carroll (the guy), unfortunately Ted Lilly is not exactly a prize, so saying the Braves picked up someone comparable does not inspire confidence.

If the prevailing consensus is that Redman will be on the 25-man as a fourth starter, and that consensus is correct, that implies to me that there is little confidence that Davies/Cormier/Villareal can provide quality depth at the back of the rotation. That would be as worrisome as the Hampton injury, IMO.

If Redman is seen as insurance against another injury to a starter, that’s another thing altogether.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

March 9, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

Everybody keeps saying this will give Hampton extra time to rest his elbow, but I was under the impression that he needs to be out there throwing, getting his arm back in shape. Does this make sense to anybody? Do y’all see this as extra time that he needed, or as time wasted?

Missippi State just hit a three at the buzzer to send it to overtime. Then took the lead for good in o.t., and sent Kentucky home from the SEC Tourn. Hogs vs. Vandy next.

By Rodger

March 9, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

ernesto-$750+up to $500 in incentives

By Shaun

March 9, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

ernesto,

According to the AP story, “if Redman is added to the 40-man roster, he would get a $750,000, one-year contract and the chance to earn $500,000 in performance bonuses based on starts.”

By eric the elder

March 9, 2007 3:49 PM | Link to this

Choppy, one answer to your question is that Andruw is hitting way less than anyone in today’s lineup, including Brayan Pena and Willie Harris. No value judgment - - just the facts.

By Shaun

March 9, 2007 3:51 PM | Link to this

If Redman completely stinks in Spring Training, the Braves don’t have to put him on the 40-man roster and they don’t have to pay him a major league salary.

I like the signing—likely not a big payoff for the Braves, but low risk.

By ernesto

March 9, 2007 3:53 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the info, that is not mad money, I mean we’re paying Sturtze that and I’m not really sure what he’s here for. That makes me like this signing more.

By The Stranger

March 9, 2007 3:54 PM | Link to this

So Kolb is wearing #87, huh? Isn’t that the number of blown saves he had as a Brave? Strange coincidence, or baseball fate?

Carroll, tell us you are a huge Night Ranger fan and you will be a hero to some of the most esteemed and oppressed denizens of the Braves/Man in Black blog.

And Go Heels!

By Chop Chop

March 9, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

Shaun, I agree with you about Redman. He’ll be able to approximate Hampton’s crappiness (at a much cheaper price, of course) until Hampton is ready to pitch in the bigs again. The problem is that the Braves are just another middling team that is having to piece together the back end of a rotation a few weeks before the season. This organization used to be better than that. We can blame payroll all we want, but aside from Chuck James, what young starting pitcher has come up in this organization in the last five years and been a thoroughly positive (in other words, not Horacio Ramirez) contributor in the bigs? I’m not saying that Mark Redman is an awful pitcher. I’m just saying that teams with strict payrolls have to do a better job of producing talent to avoid having to sign guys like Redman.

By beachcomber

March 9, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this

CR - Being an eastern BBQ gal, you’ll do just great! By the way, for folks visiting the Sunshine State and pining for real (i.e. eastern BBQ), there’s a fine place no more than 30 minutes from the Phils, Jays, Rays or Yanks (well maybe :45 from the Yanks), it’s called Butler’s BBQ in St. Pete on 94th Ave. Best BBQ south of Durham.

By Shaun

March 9, 2007 4:03 PM | Link to this

Arkansas Hillbilly,

I don’t think the extra rest hurts. As I keep saying, most pitchers aren’t all that effective after Tommy John surgery until 6 months to a year later. He likely wouldn’t have been anything special until at least July or August of this season. It’s not a huge loss at this point, especially if Davies has a breakout year, which isn’t outside the realm of possibility.

By rammerjammer

March 9, 2007 4:05 PM | Link to this

Redman has pitched for some pretty awful teams of late. The Royals won just 62 games last season, but 13 of them came when he was the starting pitcher. And when he gave them at least seven innings, they were 9-2.

By Rodger

March 9, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this

I like Chuck James, but with a half season under his belt, it seems he’s been annointed as the second coming of Cy Young. Not wanting to throw cold water on anyone, but lets be reasonable.

By Dirtie Birdie

March 9, 2007 4:13 PM | Link to this

Let’s Get Ready to Rumble!

It’s Time 4 Sum Aksion!

My man, he say,

“Who’s the Redman?”

“Where’s the Redman?”

I kill, I smother, I get down with the…

YO, YO, YO! CHILL, G.

CHILL La.

It’s over man.

You ain’t gotta say no more, it’s over.

By Brooklyn Braves Brawler

March 9, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

I like the Redman signing even though I thought we should have signed Armas Jr, earlier in FA. Didn’t have a whole lot faith in Davies fron the get go.

There were guys like Armas Jr and Jerome Williams that we could have signed for cheap and developed.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

March 9, 2007 4:22 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

I was thinking more in terms of—he needs this time to work out the kinks in his arm/throwing rather than—we need results out of him in this time period.

I agreed, myself, that without setbacks, he still probably wouldn’t have been in his groove until at least mid summer. Don’t know what words I’m looking for here, but my point was, he’s losing develoment time. Getting back on track, then getting knocked off, and having to start all over again.

Never mind. I’m getting more and more confusing as I type. Less than an hour left until the weekend. Mind is wandering.

By rammerjammer

March 9, 2007 4:23 PM | Link to this

Redman and Hudson were Oakland teammates in ‘04.

By Bob, journalist

March 9, 2007 4:29 PM | Link to this

True Braves Fan, don’t be too hard on Wilson … he’s just home sick .. misses us, I think.

We had a bit if the good, bad, and almost the ugly today … tomorrow should be interesting.

By Oddjob

March 9, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this

Truth be told who wouldn’t rather have Leo working with Redman? Rammerjammer 5.7 era is still 5.7 good team or bad.Chopchop The most important numbers are one,two and three (Smoltz,James and Hudson)that’s not to say the back end isn’t important but if the top end gives you era and innings the rest of the rotation won’t have as much pressure on it, ditto for the pen.

By 3trees

March 9, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

beachcomber - Thanks for the BBQ recommendation. I’ll be in St. Pete w/the family for Spring Break. Fishing the flats for trout and reds. Oh, heck, maybe we’ll got to the Dali too. We’ll check that BBQ joint out. My bud lives on the park where Miller Huggins Field is. Nice setting.

Go Braves!

By Carroll

March 9, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this

scoots: it’s not to say that Lilly is fantastic, but when you consider the money that he got, then we got a steal in Redman if he is 3/4 of Lilly.

By Salty

March 9, 2007 4:39 PM | Link to this

Ark Hillbilly Saw your comment on the other blog…DOB will be proud of you, infusing the day with music! Kudos!

By Rodney Derrick

March 9, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

When looking at ERAs these days, it is also important to understand that you can drop one run from the an American League ERA when pitching in the National because of the effect of the designated hitter and sadly, the recent superiority of the American League, which is starting to change, I hope. In any case, all Redman has to do is go six innings with our relief corps there, and he should get improved fielding and hitting support with the Braves. Goodness knows, Andruw alone cuts alimost half a run from Braves’ pitchers ERAs

By Robert

March 9, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

The guy has pitched 1100+ big league innings,and has won 10 or more games 4 times

He isnt a front line guy, but as a minor league pickup geez what can you argue with?

It was not a panic situation, and this is a signing that cost us very little. It was the proper type response at this juncture.

By Braveheart

March 9, 2007 4:41 PM | Link to this

It’s a good move - would have liked it a whole lot better if Mazzone was still here - McDowell does not have Mazzone’s track record with reclamation projects.

Can’t hurt though.

So, let’s wait and see.

As I’ve said numerous times on here before:

The Braves were 52-36 last year when Smolt, Hudson, and James started.

If they keep that up in their 100 or so combined starts, and the Braves manage a .500 overall record when the other guys start, the Braves should win about 88-93 games this year.

In the NL East this year, I think that might be enough to win the division.

Before you say otherwise, realize that with the Phillies six potential starters, their teams have managed only a .555 or so winning percentage over the last 3 or 4 years when those Phillies starters have started.

.555 winning percentage is roughly 88 wins.

We all know that the Mets will slip but the Mets will win more than 80 but will not win more than 90 this year with their weak rotation.

For all of you who rightly give Hudson a hard time, you do have to remember that the Braves have won 60% of the games he has started since he arrived here, regardless of his own personal won-loss record.

So, although his personal winning percentage is not what you like, he at least provides his team a chance to win a majority of the games by at least keeping his team in the game - even when he gives up more runs than he should.

Even if the Braves only win 50% of the games started by James and the rest of the starters but the Braves win 60% of the 70 or so games started by Smoltz and Hudson, even then the Braves should be looking at winning between 85-90 games this year.

The bullpen of course is the x-factor.

If this pen achieves as we hope, then perhaps we may be looking at 90-95 wins with or without Hampton.

You can not forget though that the Braves were 27-47 last year in the games not started by Smoltz, Hudson, and James.

Thankfully, Horam and Thomson are gone.

Hopefully, the braves will win at least 50% of the games started by Redman this year.

That is all they need out of him if the Braves win 60% of the starts of Smoltz and Hudson

By Carolina Lady

March 9, 2007 4:42 PM | Link to this

ElBravoX, don’t I wish!!? :-)))

CR, you sure got your BBQ right! Boy, is it ever good. Where in SC?

By Bob, journalist

March 9, 2007 4:45 PM | Link to this

beachcomber, good BBQ and better Sauce, if memory serves

By Paul Hamilton

March 9, 2007 4:51 PM | Link to this

Well Chop Chop we traded Adam Wainwright who came up through the Braves organization. Also the Brewers are still hoping that Jose Capellan realizes his potential, we traded him for Kolb. Those are two off the top of my head that came up in the Braves system in the last 5 years. Look around the majors, if great pitchers were so easy to develop, baseball wouldn’t have such a shortage of good pitching, both starters and relievers.

By macdwolfpack

March 9, 2007 4:54 PM | Link to this

Carroll, I”m in Kinston,NC and certainly understand your love for Eastern NC barbeque! Where are you from in NC? Glad to have you aboard!

By Gustopher

March 9, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this

I thought she said NC?

By Najeh Davenpoop

March 9, 2007 5:00 PM | Link to this

I’d rather see Redman starting than Cormier. Redman’s done OK in the National League, and the Braves could certainly do worse for a 5th starter.

By Rodger

March 9, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

All the talk of BBQ makes me want to fire up the grill & throw on some pork!

All the talk of pitchers makes me want to pour a few!

By Yars

March 9, 2007 5:11 PM | Link to this

Chuck James is a cool cat. He seems to do his own thing. He claims he doesn’t follow baseball much, and even works in the winter. Other players could learn a lot from him. I think they stress themselves out too much by thinking about the game too much. It’s good to see that Chucky is having a good spring.

By BosnianBaller

March 9, 2007 5:19 PM | Link to this

Good signing reminds me of the Shane Reynolds signing in 02

By kdbanks

March 9, 2007 5:34 PM | Link to this

I like it. Depth is so important at every position, and at least this will keep everyone fighting for a job and working that much harder. Plus, if he does well, Hampton won’t have to come back too early.

By JC FROM UT

March 9, 2007 5:47 PM | Link to this

Not a great signing but not terrible either. Redman can eat some innings and if he can pitch 5-6 good innings the bullpen can take over. Personally, I feel more confident with Redman than Davies at this point. I say Redman 4th and Cormier 5th. When/if Hampton comes back Redman moves to 5th.

By TennesseePaul

March 9, 2007 5:48 PM | Link to this

OK so this isn’t as depressing as heading into a season with Jorge on the roster, I’ll admit. And I do appreciate the fact that no trade was made to acquire a replacement. Any trade would have been a knee-jerk reaction resulting in us losing some good talent and acquiring a guy we want need once Hampton is healthy. Having Redman does at least cover us in some respects. I just hope we see the Marlin and not the Royal. What happens to him when Hampton does come back? Do we drop Davies/Cormier completely out of the rotation and keep Redman? Maybe we’ll actually have something to trade… It could work out beautifully. If Redman gets back on track and looks great, his salary is going to be highly desirable and we’ll still have all the younguns in the wings.

But from where I’m sitting Redman looking great is a bigger if than Davies looking great. Davies at least has youth on his side.

By TennesseePaul

March 9, 2007 5:51 PM | Link to this

McDowell does not have Mazzone’s track record with reclamation projects.

Braveheart, McDowell has a track record of one season. Basically, he has little to no track record. From that stand point it’s 50/50. Who knows if McDowell can resurrect his career? We’ll just have to see. Leo had some clowns that didn’t do well under his tutelage. He wasn’t all roses.

By Lew

March 9, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this

Rodger-That’s the best suggestion I’ve heard all day.

By JC FROM UT

March 9, 2007 5:53 PM | Link to this

With this signing happening so fast, does anyone think that maybe JS was already in contact/negotiating with Redman. It seems strange that it happened so fast and Redman is ready to make a start so soon. I also wonder why the Mets, with all their pitcing woes didn’t try to sign Redman.

By Bob, journalist

March 9, 2007 5:56 PM | Link to this

I wish I could be more optimistic about Redman … forget his won-loss record … why did the Royals pass on their pitcher of the year?

Could it be that they think hosses with 5.71 eras are $10k Claimers and not $4.5 mil Grade 1 studs after all?

Just because some breads cost $3 a loaf and others cost less than $1 … doesn’t mean either is worth eating.

Other folks must think he’s pretty good and he evidently does too … that’s why we had the chance to get him … and why he agreed to a minor league contract.

Are his incentives incentives or does he just have to show up every day to collect?

I’m not really down on Redman … glad we got him and sure hope he does well … just a bit bemused. Some folks seem to have have a knack for performing surprisingly well with an “A” on their cap … when given a second chance.

If he’s good the first time through the order, maybe we would use him for 3, followed by Oscar for another 3 … and we’d be set.

Later

By John Hoar

March 9, 2007 5:57 PM | Link to this

Carroll, welcome. I am more often a reader than a poster, and read nearly all the entries.(A few I skip, but so do most of us.) I did not expect a top-notch substitute for DOB, but I have enjoyed your stories and really appreciate the interviews.

 You've brought a lot of direct quotes from not only players but management as well. Keep up the good work. This is about the only under the radar info that we really get. By the time it makes a column, it's edited, condensed and old news. Talk about a team -CR and DOB!

By Chop Chop

March 9, 2007 6:09 PM | Link to this

Mark Redman Statistics

If you scroll down the page and check out the similar pitchers to Mark Redman (especially a certain John Thomson), you’ll find that Redman fits the “stop-gap” role that the Braves have signed him for. My guess is that Redman would have gotten a Jason Marquis deal (3 years at about 7 million per) if he happened to be two or three years younger. After all, he’s basically Jason Marquis…without the hitting ability or the propensity for giving up the long ball.

By Wayne in Utah

March 9, 2007 6:13 PM | Link to this

Blogging Team: If you haven’t read it yet, Ms. Carroll had a nice article on the signing that indicates they were in negotiations with Redman BEFORE the Hampton injury.

Personally, I think it is a good signing. A lot like the Sturtze signing, about 1.25% of your team salary bet on a pitcher that may flop, or may help out. Either way, not a big investment, with a nice potential. DOB late last night had some scary stats on Redman though, although pitching for the Royals is not like pitching for the Bravos.

If we can take the pressure off Davies and Hampton to return too quickly, this could be a big addition.

I really like our chances.

By Wayne in Utah

March 9, 2007 6:14 PM | Link to this

Does this mean we can trade Escobar, Salty, James and Davies for Baldelli or Crawford now????

just kidding, just kidding…..

By sasha6543

March 9, 2007 6:24 PM | Link to this

the mets did’t sign redman because they are racist against white players.omar minaya wants a roster full of third world non white hispanics.mark redman will 18 games with an era of 3.25 with 200 hundred innings,he was being black balled out the league,he is a good christen white man,thats going to lead the braves with his skill and talent to a WORLD SERIES CHAMPIONSHIP.

By Oddjob

March 9, 2007 6:27 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul Ive gota disagree with the 50/50 reasoning with Leo vs Mcdowell.A known plus vs an unknown isn’t a tie,that’s like saying not knowing the results from a biopsy is the same as not having cancer.Leo has the best track record in the game,Mcdowell!who knows what he can do?

By Oddjob

March 9, 2007 6:36 PM | Link to this

L

By Oddjob

March 9, 2007 6:36 PM | Link to this

L

By Oddjob

March 9, 2007 6:36 PM | Link to this

L

By Oddjob

March 9, 2007 6:36 PM | Link to this

L

By Hotspur

March 9, 2007 6:40 PM | Link to this

sasha6543: If you’re going to post racist crap like that, at least spell “Christian” right. Oy.

By Head Coach

March 9, 2007 6:40 PM | Link to this

Mark Redman is the answer to the depth question. Quality is another subject altogether. A career 4.65 ERA and 5.71 ERA last season , not exactly what we were hoping for. He does come cheap. He does eat innings. The fact that nobody else signed him yet should tell you that he is a temporary stop gap at best. Harrison doesn’t look like he is ready for the show just yet. Kelly Johnson is steady so far. Aybar just showed up swinging the bat well. Francoeur has just one strikeout in fifteen at bats , WOW ! All in all the offense looks good so far…..keep up the good work guys.

By Oddjob

March 9, 2007 6:41 PM | Link to this

Let me add to declare Mcdowell leo’s equal would be like a manager replacing Mr Cox winning 60 games the first year and being proclaimed Mr Cox’s equal.To me it,s not respectful to Leo.

By Oddjob

March 9, 2007 6:44 PM | Link to this

I have no idea how the l kept posting, sorry one and all.

By brian

March 9, 2007 6:48 PM | Link to this

is there any other way to make BBQ? Please oh please do not say you are a Blue Devil.

By Wayne in Utah

March 9, 2007 6:59 PM | Link to this

BBQ: I have lived in SC, Texas, California and other places. Someplaces it’s not ‘que if it’s not hog, other places it’s brisket. I LOVE THEM ALL. My fav is mustard based though. Again, I DO LOVE IT ALL!

Wonder what kind of ‘que Redman likes?

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

March 9, 2007 6:59 PM | Link to this

I know I’m probably in the minority on this but I think the Redman signing was a good one. First of all, it is low risk signing for the Braves. If he winds up doing well, then it costs them anywhere from $750,000 to $1.25 mil. If he sucks, they simply send him down to Richmond or put him on waivers where I can almost guarantee someone will claim him. The main reason he didn’t get signed to free agent contract this offseason was for the same reason Trachsel didn’t. They wanted too much money.

Look, Redman isn’t the second coming of Roger Clemens and nobody is saying that he is. But, the guy does have a history of pitching well on good teams. Yes, his numbers at KC and Pittsburgh didn’t look too good. But, whose does?! It appeared that Redman has more difficulty in Kauffman Stadium than anything. His ERA was 2.90 away from there. That is pretty damn good to me.

The biggest plus of having Redman is that eats innings and is durable. Chances are with both Cormier and Davies in the rotation the bullpen would have to enter every game in the 5th and 6th innings. That would totally undermine one of the benefits of having such a strong bullpen which is to allow Smolt and Hudson to stay fresh and not have them going that one or two extra innings. One of the great things I think we will see this year with this bullpen is that Smoltz will be able to leave a game after six or seven innings instead of forcing himself to go eight, which could be very problematic in September and October.

I think Redman will surprise some folks and once Hampton does return could give the Braves a very solid rotation with depth available.

By Bob, journalist

March 9, 2007 7:04 PM | Link to this

That’s okay oddjob, I don’t know why I keep posting either … and others have asked me the same question … the extra hits make David O’B happy!

By MBATL

March 9, 2007 7:07 PM | Link to this

Pretty good article on Hardball Times about league averages for #4 and #5 starters. According to their numbers, the average NL #4 starter had an era of 5.11, and the average #5, 6.26.

And, “In fact, only three teams in baseball got an ERA under 5.00 from their #5 spot: the Tigers (4.48), the White Sox (4.99), and the Padres (4.91)”.

In that light, the Redman signing looks pretty good. If he can give us 6 IP and 4 ER (an era of 6, right?) I think that gives us a chance to win close to half the time, with our improved ‘pen and good offense.

Yeah, it’s a glass half full view, but I really think this is a positive move for the Braves under the circumstances.

By Bo

March 9, 2007 7:11 PM | Link to this

Good move JS. Thanks for moving quick and Redman will surprise alot of folks. Go Braves!!!!!!

By Carolina Lady

March 9, 2007 7:20 PM | Link to this

Brian, don’t know who you were addressing “is there any other way to make BBQ? Please oh please do not say you are a Blue Devil.” but no, there is no other way to make BBQ (don’t rightly know what that other stuff is…), and I’m half Indian, half Irish. :-)))

By Head Coach

March 9, 2007 7:22 PM | Link to this

They didn’t trade anybody. Heres a big high five for John Schuerholz ! Nice pick me up for the team.

By N8

March 9, 2007 7:27 PM | Link to this

I’m not so sure why everybody is so “down” on the Redman signing, considering that Kyle Davies with essentially the equivelant of 1 full season under his belt has a 10-13 record with an ERA over 6.00, so quite frankly, I’m STILL more concerned with Davies than with what Mark Redman will do. Assuming he makes the opening day rotation. LOL! Like there’s ANY doubt that Bobby would go with a youngster over him.

By N8

March 9, 2007 7:28 PM | Link to this

well said robert, with you post @ 4:40.

By N8

March 9, 2007 7:36 PM | Link to this

Back to my concern over Davies. Consider this:

He was 7-3 with a 4.38 ERA through his first 15 big league starts.

He is 3-10 with an 8.40 ERA since then (September 1, 2005)

OUCH! YIKES! OMG! HOLY SH*T!

Those were just the first few phrases to come to mind.

By the hawks r cursed for trading Nique

March 9, 2007 7:37 PM | Link to this

I think this is a good pickup…but u know something is wrong with ownership when we coulndt bring Glavine(whos a proven big game pitcher) back yet have to rely on second tier players like redmen and hampton. What has hampton done while with the Braves..?? hes definitly not a big game pitcher and i hope he never starts another postseason game for the Braves!! He can stay hurt all year for all i care.

By TheSouthernJackAss

March 9, 2007 7:38 PM | Link to this

Un-be-liev-able!…

By N8

March 9, 2007 7:44 PM | Link to this

Oddjob

You said:

“Let me add to declare Mcdowell leo’s equal would be like a manager replacing Mr Cox winning 60 games the first year and being proclaimed Mr Cox’s equal.To me it,s not respectful to Leo”

In all fairness to Mr. McDowell, Leo NEVER had to work with as PATHETIC of an overall pitching staff, in the years he was here.

1 ACE: John Smoltz

0 Closers BW (before Wickman).

Worse set up guys BW.

Injury after injury to the guys that probably weren’t that good to start with (HoRam, Thomson, Sosa, Davies…..)

McDowell seemed to “coach” Smoltz just fine, didn’t he? Hmmm. I wonder how he could’ve done with Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Neagle and Millwood in the sam rotation? My guess is my Dad could be the pitching coach of that staff.

But before you PRAISE Leo for all the reclamation projects (Burkett, Wright, El Presidente’, Hampton, Sosa, Hammond, etc…..)

Let’s talk about the guys he COULDN’T “fix”: Odalis Perez, Jason Marquis, Mark Wohlers, Dan Kolb, Steve Avery at the end of his first Brave term, Albie Lopez, for EVERY guy that he “saved” (mostly veterens that probably could’ve found their own way, if healthy), there is a TON of young guys, that he couldn’t relate to, that if they would’ve been able to be “fine tuned”, we would’ve had NO NEED to go get the veterans that LEO had to fix.

By N8

March 9, 2007 7:50 PM | Link to this

“but u know something is wrong with ownership when we coulndt bring Glavine(whos a proven big game pitcher) back yet have to rely on second tier players like redmen and hampton.”

Uh….NO! There’s something wrong with the fans that live in Atlanta and HAD Glavine and many others, but CHOSE to not attend the games and make them sellouts. Thus causing the “profits” to no be “equal to the investment”, so payroll was dropped.

Fans didn’t show up in full force (especially in the first round of playoff games), to see Glavine the first time around, when he was IN HIS PRIME, why should ownership shell out money for him a second time around, only to get burned by fickle fans, not wanting to buy tickets?

By Baseball Glossary

March 9, 2007 7:52 PM | Link to this

hawks r cursed

What do you know about baseball? Yes, Hampton has been injured for most of his Braves career, but to say he is not a big game pitcher…. The man has had a good career, made a bad move going to Colorado, and has been bit by the injury bug. May never pitch well again, but you make it sound like he is the equivalent of Jorge Sosa.

Study up on things before you make incorrect comments.

By Wayne in Utah

March 9, 2007 7:53 PM | Link to this

I heard my Utah Jazz picked up Mark Redman as a back-up shooting guard….

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

March 9, 2007 8:00 PM | Link to this

Oh, Head Coach, thanks for reminding me. I left something off of my ealeir post. The best thing about this Redman signing is that if fills a hole without costing the team one prospect.

Also, with T. Pena and Yates being out of options, you have think that they both are trade possibilities. Also, what a spring Langerhans is having offensively! I think he realizes he has to step it up if he wants to stay here. But, with he and Diaz having great springs you almost have to think one of them are tradeable. IMO it would be optimal for Langerhans to find his stroke and be the everyday LF but is this offensive surge merely the results of hitting spring training pitching or a glimpse of things to come?

By Oddjob

March 9, 2007 8:03 PM | Link to this

N8 If you choose to dismiss fifteen years of top performances by Leo coached teams it,s a free country,but my analogy is fair and I stand behind it.Mcdowell hasn’t proved one thing as a coach!

By Robert

March 9, 2007 8:09 PM | Link to this

Florida 28 Georgia 4, in case anyone cares

And the NC State team that took out Duke is getting clobbered by Virginia. Any other team wouldnt get an NCAA bid with their resume, but Dyuuuuk will probably get a #5 seed and move up into the top 10 in the polls

By Robert

March 9, 2007 8:11 PM | Link to this

“Mcdowell hasn’t proved one thing as a coach!”

I beg to differ. He’s proved he aint no Leo Mazzone

By Gil in Mechanicsville

March 9, 2007 8:12 PM | Link to this

Carroll, for whatever failings you might have I will say your taste in music and BBQ are a plus. In particular the bar-b-que because I hate that god awful stuff with the sweet taste every makes around here. I am not a tarheel but know there should be little between the pig and your taste buds but hickory smoke, red pepper and vinagar. Bet you like Fleetwood Mac too… Now baseball..

Great pickup by the Braves. I would suspect Redman was hestitant to sign with the Braves before because he did not see an opportunity to make the team. However, with Hampton going down it is a different situation.

The Braves have little to lose in this signing. They did not trade away any talent nor did take a big hit in the wallet. Plus the guy is a lefty.

Now we will see how he does Saturday. Let’s hope there is not too much rust. I would hate for all the “Chicken Littles” out there to have to go into a tizzy again.

And oh by the way Carolina Lady… Great quote from R.E. Lee on yesterday’s blog.

By TennesseePaul

March 9, 2007 8:30 PM | Link to this

“Mcdowell hasn’t proved one thing as a coach!”

“I beg to differ. He’s proved he aint no Leo Mazzone”

True, had he been Leo last year, the pitching would have been even worse. Leo did a bang up job in Baltimore.

By Paul Hamilton

March 9, 2007 8:31 PM | Link to this

Too jump in on this McD vs Leo chat. Granted Leo did have great success coaching here in Atl, but Baltimore’s staff last year was terrible. Having 3 HOF in Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz would make anyone’s resume look pretty damn good. His magic didn’t follow him to Baltimore thats for sure. McD has a long way to go, but the guy just started out so who knows.

By Oddjob

March 9, 2007 8:32 PM | Link to this

n8 Pointing out the pitchers Leo didn’t turn around is about as fair as listing the times Maddox didn’t pitch a shutout or the games Andruw didn’t go yard last season.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

March 9, 2007 8:34 PM | Link to this

Hey Robert… Don’t worry. Even Duke has a rebuilding year once every 10 or so years. They will go to the Big dance on reputation alone. They don’t have to earn their way in.

By N8

March 9, 2007 8:37 PM | Link to this

Oddjob

What kind of “magic” did Leo work in Baltimore last year?

Here. Let me tell you:

2006: 5.35 ERA which ranked 13th out of 14 teams in the AL.

2005: 4.56 ERA which ranked 10th out of 14 teams in the AL.

But I suppose you’ll want to use the “but, but, but……it w-w-w-was his first year in Baltimore, getting to know his pitchers.”

Oh……You mean JUST LIKE IT WAS for Roger McDowell.

Listen. I’m not choosing “to dismiss fifteen years of top performances by Leo coached teams”. In fact, I appreciate Leo. He was a STAPLE of the Braves along with the foam Tomahawks, The “big 3”, etc….

But if you fail to recognize that we were blessed with 3 HOF pitchers for basically a decade, and choose to give LEO all the credit for that, go right ahead. But ask yourself this:

If Leo was so damn good, why did a guy like Tim Hudson come over, have his worst year as a pro (until the next one that followed), and have NOTHING nice to say about the man, when he left?

By Gil in Mechanicsville

March 9, 2007 8:39 PM | Link to this

Wayne in Utah, I had been meaning to catch you before. You are early tonight. My youngest son is working in Lehi. Not that far from you. Says he loves it out there.

By Blog Police

March 9, 2007 8:47 PM | Link to this

N8

Do you truly find yourself interesting enough to post six times in an hour? Guessing nobody else does…

By Carolina Lady

March 9, 2007 8:48 PM | Link to this

Gil in Mechanicsville, thanks! He had some great quotes that we rarely see. Extraordinary man. :-)

By Oddjob

March 9, 2007 8:49 PM | Link to this

N8 I don’t stutter or rant that’s what the doctor would call projecting onto others.

By N8

March 9, 2007 8:50 PM | Link to this

Oddjob

“n8 Pointing out the pitchers Leo didn’t turn around is about as fair as listing the times Maddox didn’t pitch a shutout or the games Andruw didn’t go yard last season. “

ARE YOU KIDDING ME????

Everybody wants to give him credit for EVERYBODIES SUCCESS. I’m just showing that if he truely was THAT GOOD, we wouldn’t have had to go get guys like Dennis Martinez, John Burkett, Albie Lopez, Andy Ashby, etc….

We have had PLENTY of pitchers with “good-great stuff” (according to Bobby every spring), that weren’t able to harness it. If Leo was such a “miracle worker”, how come it took Jason Schmidt so long to turn it around? Or are you gonna give Leo credit for his later success, due to “tough love” early in his career, making him “what he is today”?

Bruce Chen, Kyle Davies, Horacio Ramirez, Jason Schmidt, Jason Marquis, Odalis Perez. All were labeled “can’t miss” prospects. Really? THE great Leo Mazzone couldn’t “show them the way”?

3 guys and 3 guys ALONE led the way for Leo having “fifteen years of top performances by Leo coached teams”.

TOM GLAVINE

JOHN SMOLTZ

GREG MADDUX

PERIOD!!!

By N8

March 9, 2007 8:52 PM | Link to this

sorry for the “stutter”. it actually came off as a typo. But I thought it would be funny anyhow.

blog police

To answer your question:

YES

But in all fairness, as long as people (or even 1 person) keeps responding, why can’t I?

By N8

March 9, 2007 8:54 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul

“True, had he been Leo last year, the pitching would have been even worse. Leo did a bang up job in Baltimore.”

Thank you.

I realize you weren’t saying it to “take my side”.

But just glad to see somebody else thinking clearly.

By Blog Police

March 9, 2007 9:00 PM | Link to this

Wow there’s nine! Hijack away dude. Seen you do it many times. BTW, you are generally full of yourself and, ahem, other stuff…

By N8

March 9, 2007 9:05 PM | Link to this

blog police

It’s actually been 9 posts in 1:27.

oops. This makes 10!

By sasha6543

March 9, 2007 9:06 PM | Link to this

i want to add this is classic braves signing,MARK REDMAN COMPARES TO KENNY ROGERS AND JAIME MOYER only 10 to 13 years younger.mark redman learned late last year hot to throw CUT FASTBALL{from kc pitch coach bob mclure} with great results,he has always had his great changeup as out pitch now has cut fastball as well{cut fastball made jaime moyer dominating pitcher in al,still going strong with phillies}.HOTSPUR JUST TELLING IT LIKE IT IS,LIKE GEN NATHAN FORREST!!!!!!!!!!

By Oddjob

March 9, 2007 9:07 PM | Link to this

N8 Fair minded reasonable (rational) people give credit where it’s due.When Mcdowell earns credit I’ll be glad to extend him his due,till then we’ll see.But let’s try to follow your logic,Maddox has been average the past few years so maybe he was lucky all those other seasons.With that in mind we can question the accomplishments of just about every hall of fame manager and player.

By Robert

March 9, 2007 9:12 PM | Link to this

Wait a minute. For one thing, several Orioles pitchers were involved in the World Baseball Classic last season. For another thing, the one potential front line starter he had to work with, Erik Bedard, made a major step forward last year.

Other than that, look at what he had to work with. You expect him to be able to make a pitcher out of Bruce Chen? He’s a pitching coach, not God. It’s one thing to be able to recycle scrap metal. It’s quite another to ask someone to turn manure into gold. (or even into scrap metal)

I find it incredible that folks who think “14 straight” is the end of the arguement when it comes to some things will not accept “14 straight, but not in 15th year when it just so happened Leo wasnt there any more” as meaning something regarding Leo’s abilities.

By N8

March 9, 2007 9:12 PM | Link to this

Blog Police

(btw: I believe this makes it 11) :-)

If you’re gonna come on and make silly remarks, rather than join the conversation/arguement, the LEAST YOU COULD do, is use your real moniker.

Blog Police, while funny and creative, doesn’t give others the opportunity to MOCK you when you say something that others don’t like.

I mean, COME BUDDY. Step up to the microphone with your wisdom and prescence! Your here. Pull up a seat and make yourself useful! Or don’t you have anything worth spewing out of your mouth.

OddJob and myself were having a CIVIL conversation about Leo’s resume, going back and forth with eachother, making our case. Not hurting anybody to my knowledge, yet the only thing “clever” you could come up with is to call yourself the “blog police” and waste a couple of posts about me.

Glad my coattail is long enough for you buddy, er….I mean Blog Police.

By JawjaHillbilly

March 9, 2007 9:18 PM | Link to this

Mike Hampton should play in a padded bubble…

By CHDtbdm

March 9, 2007 9:18 PM | Link to this

Eastern NC barbecue, quite frankly, sucks. Lexington-style BBQ is the only way to go. :)

By MBATL

March 9, 2007 9:19 PM | Link to this

Not only did Leo have great talent in Atlanta, but the talent had great health. Look at the mid-90’s to about 2003… we got 29-34 starts from our top four, not just the big three, just about every year (Smoltz’ injury being the exception).

I think Leo gets a little credit there, for his off-day throwing program, which was a little unique (can something be a little unique?). A lot of guys have said they thought it helped reduce the likelihood of injury.

To me, like most of these great debates, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Leo was clearly a very good pitching coach, but not a miracle worker. He couldn’t restore Avery’s lost fastball, or get any more out of Marquis or O Perez than they were willing to give (neither of them bought into Leo’s philosophies, as I recall). And Schmidt was just plain mediocre, not only with us, but with the Bucs for several years too. He was just a late bloomer.

Leo’s philosophy is suited to good pitchers, guys who have the confidence to pitch inside, to throw strikes, and the ability to paint the corners.

It’s not much fun to argue the middle of an argument, of course, but that’s my take on it.

As to McDowell, I do believe the jury is still out; no one could have salvaged much from last year’s staff.

By Blog Police

March 9, 2007 9:21 PM | Link to this

Sweet! Does Guinness have a record for, “Most moronic comments made in two hours by a pompous, overly opinionated, pimple-faced kid who needs to respond to every blogger”? You think Robert gives a rat’s a— that you liked his post?

By N8

March 9, 2007 9:22 PM | Link to this

Oddjob

Well now you went and did it. You showed your “true” Braves knowledge to me. As soon as I see somebody spell MaddUx’s name with an “o” instead of a “u”, I realize I’m dealing with somebody who either is 12 years old, or was 12 years old the last time MaddUx pitched in a Braves uniform.

So thanx for clearing that up. Let me guess, when discussing Andruw, you spell it AndrEw?

Now back to the “details”. I can respect you wanting to wait until McDowell earns his respect. While he hasn’t done that yet, at the same time, he SURELY hasn’t done anything to earn your disrespect, has he?

Back to MaddUx. Really? Your gonna compare what he’s done at ages 38, 39 and 40 (ERA’s of: 4.02, 4.24 and 4.20 - which, btw, would’ve put him second in line behind Smoltz to be our #2, all of those years) to what he did in his prime????

Now I KNOW you are just trying to be silly.

You watch what Maddux does this year in a pitcher’s park (clear across the continent from Leo, I might add), with SD. I think he’ll be just fine.

By sasha6543

March 9, 2007 9:26 PM | Link to this

check out logical truthfull commentary on sports AT CASTEFOOTBALL.COM

By Robert

March 9, 2007 9:26 PM | Link to this

“We have had PLENTY of pitchers with “good-great stuff” (according to Bobby every spring), that weren’t able to harness it.”

And what exactly would that mean?

N8, Leo wasnt responsible for everything. And yes, having three HOF starters will help. (sure made someone else look good I tell ya)

I think Hudson’s remarks about Leo might have had to do with his own frustrations as much as anything else

By gotigers72

March 9, 2007 9:26 PM | Link to this

Here they go again, signing another ragarm with a losing record and a high ERA. This year’s Ken Ray, may have games where he throws well, but overall, just another ragarm. Last year’s Jorge Sosa is another example. Why in Heaven’s name do they continue to sign pitchers that have not been successful in the majors in the past? Like Sosa. Do they think lightning is suddenly gonna strike a journeyman pitcher and turn his ragarm into a golden arm.

They already have ragarms with losing records and high ERAs in the minors. Why not give one of them a chance? I know Matt Harrison’s not ready, but my goodness, this guy?

By the way CR, anybody that prefers eastern NC vinegar based barbecue over tomato based barbecue is a sick mind. I do agree with the slaw ON the bun though.

By N8

March 9, 2007 9:35 PM | Link to this

MBATL

very nice post.

at the end you said:

“As to McDowell, I do believe the jury is still out; no one could have salvaged much from last year’s staff.”

That’s precisely my point. And at the same time, Robert wants to try and make that arguement for Leo in Baltimore, but not give McDowell the benifit of the doubt, regarding injuries and “sub-standard” talant.

Having said ALL THAT I HAVE SAID regarding Leo. I do happen to give him credit for building the foundation that Smoltz and Glavine succeeded with. Not Maddux though. The guy won his first Cy Young without Leo, he would’ve won those Cy Young’s if he was on the Devil Rays, in the mid-90’s (yeah, I know the Devil Rays weren’t around in 93, 94, and 95), but you get my point.

Also MBATL’s point about the “health” is a good one. Leo’s program definitely kept guys healthy, but if you notice, the ones who never threw hard to begin with (MaddUx and Glavine) are the ones that NEVER got hurt. What about Avery, Smoltz and Millwood? How did Leo’s routine help them? So even there, we have mixed results.

Coaches and managers need to be good teachers to succeed, but one other thing they need to do that makes there job easier, is to find the “right” students to teach, as well.

Example: If there was an NFL head coach who LOVED the power running game, yet talked his GM into signing Barry Sanders to be his HB, wouldn’t the BIGGEST mistake he made, be the one in choosing somebody who “didn’t fit the mold” he was looking for?

Leo did a fine job, in fact a GREAT job (are you happy?) while in Atlanta. But make no mistake about it, JS gave him the right guys to teach his “philosophy” to, IMO.

By N8

March 9, 2007 9:35 PM | Link to this

Blog Police

how many is that now?

I’ve lost count.

By N8

March 9, 2007 9:40 PM | Link to this

Robert

Please tell me that you “care” if I like your post or not! I’m hinging on your approval.

You said:

“And yes, having three HOF starters will help. (sure made someone else look good I tell ya)”

You see, that’s the part that baffles me. You’re willing to NOT let Bobby take all (or any. LOL!), of the credit, because the teams were loaded with talent, as you have said MANY times. But when disecting the HEART AND SOUL of the Braves for the last 15 years, the pitching, you want to give Leo the majority of the credit when 3/5 of his rotation were sure fire, 1st ballot HOFr’s for a decade.

Even YOU can’t have it both ways.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

March 9, 2007 9:41 PM | Link to this

N8, don’t let the haters get you down. You make common sense and we all know that for some here that is well……..too much to handle.

Robert, Leo had more talent to work with last year than McDowell did. McDowell was working with scrap heap. For the love of God, Jason Schiell was the best option for a #5 starter at one time last year. JASON SCHIELL!!

By no means is Roger McDowell Leo Mazzone. But, was Leo Mazzone Leo Mazzone back in 1990. I don’t think so. The fact is the Orioles had better pitchers in 2006 than they did in 2005 and had a worse team ERA. I love Leo to death but one thing that even his staunchest of supporters conceeded was that Leo was less than receptive to dealing with young pitchers, which I think can directly be linked to the O’s pitching performance last year. McDowell has a way with those young guys. Paronto, Yates, McBride, and Chuck James all praised Roger last year and said he helped them tremendously. How many pitchers ever came out and praised Leo.

This whole thing is a silly argument. Leo is one of the best but he isn’t God. He is gone. Get over it. Roger McDowell has done a good job and I think this season will be the true test of his methods work. I will say this. For the most part the pitchers have been very good this spring. But, I guess that is just dumb luck.

And, also, the argument that Leo had pitchers in the World Baseball Classic and that is why the O’s pitchers struggled is just asinine. If you remember, the Braves had some pitchers in the WBC also. Does the names Oscar Villareal and Chris Reitsma ring a bell. And, if that theory is legit, then anyone giving Francoeur crap should just shut up because he was in the WBC also. Right?!

By N8

March 9, 2007 9:45 PM | Link to this

Robert

I said:

“We have had PLENTY of pitchers with “good-great stuff” (according to Bobby every spring), that weren’t able to harness it.”

Then you replied with:

“And what exactly would that mean?”

What I meant by that was, EVERY spring there was always somebody that Bobby, JS, or Leo were raving about somebody (and I’m paraphrasing), “having electifying stuff, if they can just learn to harness it, they’re gonna be great.”

Usually these conversations were about Schmidt, Perez, Marquis, Horam, etc… Now it’s Lerew, Davies, Harrison. There always seems to be SOMEBODY that is “next in line”. Yet we keep having to go out and get retreads for the rotation.

So either the coaching isn’t that good. Or the scouting department is LYING to JS. LOL!

By N8

March 9, 2007 9:49 PM | Link to this

RJISTB

I don’t let the haters EVER get me down.

It’s all good.

Nice post. Jason Schiell. YIKES!!

Maybe Leo was distracted by Anna Benson? LOL!

By pompousN8

March 9, 2007 9:54 PM | Link to this

“Sweet! Does Guinness have a record for, “Most moronic comments made in two hours by a pompous, overly opinionated, pimple-faced kid who needs to respond to every blogger”?”

Awesome, I’ve been looking for a “word” to put before my name, to make it a little more creative.

Thank You.

By Lew

March 9, 2007 10:20 PM | Link to this

Nathan-Dude, Calm down. You’re getting wound up again. It’s not good for your blood pressure.

By pompousN8

March 9, 2007 10:28 PM | Link to this

Lew

I’m not wound up…..YET. LOL!

Actually just getting ready to watch a movie with the kids. I’ve gotta do my best to train them to be pompous, you know.

L8R

By Gil in Mechanicsville

March 9, 2007 10:35 PM | Link to this

pompousN8 Do you get some kind of ticket or something from the blog police or do they let you off with a warning? Could do blog rehab, might even do community service on the Idol’s blog….. Naw… that would be too harsh…

Anyway.. Some great post tonight.

By Bob, journalist

March 9, 2007 10:39 PM | Link to this

Carroll, I told you than folks need warning … I just posted on the previous Blog to test the layout of the table included in this post and 3 folks had posted since 6:00 PM.

Jed, standing corrected is a dubious honor … I always had to sit in the corner. You aren’t the only one who predicted that JS would do nothing about filling Hampton’s spot. You’re glad to be wrong … seems like the rest of them are standing pat.

After giving it some thought, Redman might be a surprise, and a plesant one at that … it’ll be fun to watch things unfold.

Your 2007 Braves … 10+ At Bats OBP AVG

15:8 .533 .533 Prado 15:7 .471 .467 Escobar 10:4 .400 .400 Aybar 10:4 .462 .400 Harris 10:4 .400 .400 Pena 13:5 .429 .385 Wilson 17:6 .389 .353 Langerhans 15:5 .353 .333 Francoeur 18:6 .316 .333 Johnson 12:4 .467 .333 Orr 18:6 .333 .333 Pena 16:5 .353 .313 Diaz 13:4 .412 .308 Renteria 12:3 .400 .250 Larry Jones 17:4 .316 .235 Blanco 13:3 .333 .231 McCann 16:3 .316 .188 Andruw Jones 17:3 .263 .176 Thorman 18:3 .318 .167 Bohn 11:1 .091 .091 Jurries

Why is our leadoff hitter’s OBP less than his AVG?

Is Andruw out of options?

Last year, Jurries said he did all that he could do to leave a lasting impression … looks like he’s doing that again.

I know that if a batter swings at a ball that then hits him, it’s still a strike … but what if he is so badly fooled that he swings far too early, recovers from his mistake … swings again and hits the ball?

By MBATL

March 9, 2007 10:47 PM | Link to this

Bob, I wondered about that too - Johnson having a lower OBP than batting avg. I’m guessing he reached on an error a time or two - would that do it? Curious.

By Bob, journalist

March 9, 2007 10:49 PM | Link to this

II never was good at correcting tests … good thing I wasn’t a teacher!

By Oddjob

March 9, 2007 11:09 PM | Link to this

N8 You’re ranting little guy.

By Bob, journalist

March 9, 2007 11:14 PM | Link to this

MBATL, that’s what came to mind but, that makes no sense since an error counts as a time at bat it would go in the denominator of any ratio of which I know, including Batting Average.

However, .316 = 6/19 … perhaps he had a basehit taken away and reclassified as an error … if they have a faulty algorithm that adds 1 to the denominator while substracting one from the numerator 7/18 would go to 6/19.

Maybe Orr paid ‘em to make Johnson’s stats look bad.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

March 9, 2007 11:24 PM | Link to this

The 2nb job is still Kelly’s to lose and he is not doing anything to lose it at this point.

By TheSouthernJackAss

March 9, 2007 11:44 PM | Link to this

Don’t trust anyone!…

By Bob, journalist

March 9, 2007 11:49 PM | Link to this

Gil … singing in the shower is different that so doing on the stage … some can, others can’t.

I think Kelly’s doing better than expected … and will continue to improve. It’s so important that he gets off to a good start … Thorman too … I don’t look forward to the nearsighted fans mistaking them for Chris Reitsma and Adam Larouche when they boot a few.

Langerhans could’ve folded his tent too.

By Bob, journalist

March 9, 2007 11:53 PM | Link to this

Honorable Southern, if I can’t trust you .. you must be someone else … so I’m going to bed!

By mr baseball

March 10, 2007 1:21 AM | Link to this

N8: Nice to have a fellow iconoclast on the blog. You’re right about Mazzone. The Big 3 would have made any pitching coach look good, but he does deserve credit for his work with a number of fringe veterans.

The one thing I always found curious about Mazzone was his inability to develop the Braves’ young pitching talent. After Avery’s mercurial rise and fall, the only young pitcher Leo had any success with was Millwood. Chen, Marquis & Perez couldn’t get out of Atlanta fast enough, and the Braves traded just about every other young pitching prospect they developed, which may or may not have been a tacit admission by the GM that his pitching coach could not properly develop said talent. Chen actually had a pretty decent year with the Orioles in ‘05 and was horrible last year when reunited with Baseball’s Best Pitching Coach.

Had no intentions of continuing my anti-Schuerholz manifestos, but just when I thought I was out, KC pulled me back in. The rest of you can skip ahead to the next post and I won’t feel slighted.

KC: We agree on several things. Boone never should have hit 2nd in that lineup (Cox is convinced only 2B and SS can bat 2nd)& the GM’s best attribute is his patience. The key moves he made pre-Justice/Grissom were no brainers, but he sat tight and waited on the Padres until they dropped their demands the Braves include Klesko in the McGriff deal. Big props there.

When I refer to the Braves “downhill path” post-96, it’s not just the 1 World Series apearance since. The Braves could have won every playoff series they lost from 91-96, and put up a very good fight each time. Since ‘97, they have pretty much stunk it up in every playoff series they’ve lost, many to inferior teams. About the only highlight I can think of over that entire span was the play Walt Weiss made to save the series against the Astros, the only time the Braves have gotten past the first round since ‘99. I think the trades of Grissom, Justice and Dye are directly related to that decline, with the Boone/Klesko deal starting the second downward slide.

Klesko would have been the LF in 2000 instead of Sanders, who was pitiful the one season he played here. Had he not been traded, he would have moved to 1B in ‘01. That season the Braves almost certainly got the least production from that position of any team in MLB history, while Klesko went 30-113-.286 in SD. The GM’s 3 entrants in the 1B sweepstakes that year: Rico Brogna, Ken Caminiti & Julio Franco. The next year was the Franco & Franco platoon, which produced a whopping 60 RBIs. Fick was OK in ‘03 until his late-season meltdown before LaRoche finally came along. How a GM could not find something/anything better than what the Braves had at first base in ‘01 and ‘02 was a total dereliction of duty. Hope that doesn’t happen again this year. Don’t think it will.

Second base wasn’t quite as bad, but we saw way too much of Keith Lockhart those 3 years. Veras was pretty good for a half season in ‘00, but was gone by midway through ‘01. Giles stepped in pretty well the 2nd half of that season, but sat most of ‘02 in favor of Lockhart, who hit a lofty .216. Meanwhile, Boone put up some phenomenal numbers, but it’s not a huge secret how he did it.

Each of the three trades I cited had one thing in common. The GM traded power for speed and got burned every time. How’s that saying go about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results? I don’t consider Schuerholz to be insane, but I don’t entirely take his word as gospel either. Two years after being “forced” to unload Grissom & Justice, the Braves spent a bunch of money signing Jordan.

Trading two quality players like Grissom & Justice for 1 year of Lofton & a fairly ordinary reliever was a truly bad move that a GM of Schuerholz’ caliber should not have made. Ditto the Dye deal. When you trade quality, you better get quality in return, and he failed on both counts in ‘97, even more so 3 years later.

In the GM’s defense, he has made a whole lot of shrewd decisions since: letting Glavine, Maddux, Ortiz & Wright walk; trading for Estrada and getting something in return for him; stealing Renteria & Wickman. But too many of his short term acquisitions have tanked in the playoffs (not his fault but he brought them here) and he has left too many small problems unsolved. Signing Redman so quickly was a good move, and it’s little things like that which can make the difference between a good season and a very good season.

For all the good moves he’s made as GM, his bad ones have caused more damage to the team than the others have helped, which is at the heart of my contention that he is over-rated at his job.

I promise these are my final words on the subject. For the time being at least.

By bevsouth

March 10, 2007 2:09 AM | Link to this

Was in Bradenton yesterday and here are a few observations. James looked good,Aybar’s home run was into a stiff breeze and really smacked. However he was less then great in the field playing one ball like a bull fighter just waving at it and on another one hit in the hole, instead of diving for it, he stopped. KJ’s home run was crushed over the 350 mark with a broken bat and Langy looked very good also. Diaz mad a nice running catch against the fence and finally Blanco can fly, beat out a swining bunt easily. If we do lose AJ next year this kid would fill the gap defensively and make a good leadofff hitter.The power would have to come form somone else however.

By TheSouthernJackAss

March 10, 2007 5:44 AM | Link to this

We wear the mask that grins and lies, It hides our cheeks and shades our eyes,— This debt we pay to human guile; With torn and bleeding hearts we smile, And mouth the myriad subtleties.

Why should the world be overwise, In counting all our tears and sighs? Nay, let them only see us, while We wear the mask.

We smile, but O great Christ, our cries To thee from tortured souls arise. We sing, but oh the clay is vile Beneath our feet, and long the mile; But let the world dream otherwise, We wear the mask!…

By Gil in Mechanicsville

March 10, 2007 6:54 AM | Link to this

Or to put that in simple terms… You knew it was a snake when you picked it up….

By Bob, journalist

March 10, 2007 7:16 AM | Link to this

Goodness!

Not just touché one, but touché two

By Gil in Mechanicsville

March 10, 2007 7:48 AM | Link to this

Bob, One real advantage Kelly Johnson has is that he will be playing Atlanta, not New York or Boston. The fans in Atlanta are not as rude and the press not as intense as the ones in those cities. He will have an opportunity to make a few mistakes.

In reality is a team has a lot at stake in a number one draft pick. Reputations are on the line, signing bonuses, time invested. No one wants to say they were wrong and some kid they completely overlooked is actually better.

But Kelly Johnson is different I think. He has put in all the extra time when he could have tanked it. It is the third new position he has been asked to play and yes, he may not be as slick as someone who has been playing it for the past five years but he has worked hard at it.

I think the other young players are making a good impression in camp too and let’s hope it continues. Just like every other boss I have ever met in my life, Bobby Cox appreciates a kid who gives extra effort and does not dog it. There are always teams looking for players and let’s hope they all get their shot.

By Jeff R

March 10, 2007 9:48 AM | Link to this

Redman had a career year in Florida. In Pittsburgh and KC he was routinely shelled. Maybe there’s some bounce-back in him. Let’s hope so.

By Micah

March 10, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this

Redman and Hudson got along swimmingly in the bay area and represented a playoff contending team. The inclusion of Redman should work an inside fastball to Hudson’s psyche. I’d like to think that he will be more confidant with a player on the staff who he is comfortable with and visa versa for Redman. They must’ve consulted Hudson on the pickup. Eh, just another psychological examination of the intangibles. Go Braves!

By Lew

March 10, 2007 10:06 AM | Link to this

I’d like to make an observation or two about the acquisition of Redman. First of all-he’s cheap! Real cheap on today’s market. IF he makes the team we owe him $750,000. He also has incentives which could add 1/2 a mil. By today’s standards, that’s dirt cheap. We are risking damn little. In KC he won 11 games and only lost 12. A .500 record with a team as pititful as the Royals is phenomenal. He apparently gave his teammates confidence that no one else on the staff gave them. This is significant. As far as the ERA. First, knock a run off of it for pitching in the NL. Second, last year, damn near everyone’s ERA was sky high. There were only about a dozen pitchers that had ERA’s under 4 runs per game. He was no worse than most others. His ERA was no worse than Steve Trachsel’s, who won 15 games with a good team. I think this was as good a pickup as we could make a. on short notice b. for this low a price c.he has much more ML experience than either Davies or Cormier.

By MBATL

March 10, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this

For all the good moves he’s made as GM, his bad ones have caused more damage to the team than the others have helped, which is at the heart of my contention that he is over-rated at his job.

N8, good post, but (you knew there had to be a but, right?); I think that statement is just absurd!

Going through every move a GM makes (especially over 16 years!), and focusing on those that didn’t pan out for the best, is kinda’ like going through Albert Pujols’ at bats, and noting each of the 400 or so times he failed to reach base.

Schuerholz should be judged in comparison to his peers, not to perfection, or to 20/20 hindsight.

With the exception of Cashman in NY, I’d defy you to find a GM with a better track record over a sustained period. Lots of guys have come in and built a winner, but very few have done so in a fashion that allows the team continued success. (and Cashman’s only been on the job since ‘98, and with all that money to spend). Maybe Jocketty gets in the discussion too.

What makes JS a success is that the Braves have withstood the loss of Maddux, Glavine, Milwood, Justice, McGriff, Pendleton, Lofton, Lopez, Estrada, Galaraga, Avery, Neagle … and on and on - some to trades or free agency, some to old age, and still come back to perform at a very high level.

I do think the most glaring mistake JS has made was letting Dye go for Tucker and Lockhart in ‘97. But, I also think that Dye gets a little too much praise; a .339 lifetime obp, and 272 HR, 41/62 SB, is not the stuff of superstars. He would’ve been a solid corner OF, though.

Klesko, btw, was given the chance to hit lefties, in ‘96 and ‘97 (Bobby is often blamed for assuming he couldn’t hit them; in fact, he was given the chance and couldn’t hit them for the first half of his career; a .230 average, 3 hr in 151 plate appearances in ‘96, and a .198 avg, 3 hr, in ‘97. Some guys (Klesko, Schmidt, for example, take a long time to develop and you can’t always foresee or wait for it).

I will acknowledge that JS misjudged badly last year, thinking that pitching staff could get the job done. On the other hand, while he probably did have the money to sign Wicky before the season, beyond that there was little flexibility to fix it. And Wicky alone wouldn’t have salvaged 2006.

Anyway, I feel about JS pretty much the same way I do about Cox; neither is infallible; both are very good at what they do. When I’m unable to name anyone I’d rather have in the job, to me that indicates that what I have is well above average, at least.

Later, I’ll probably argue with you about Leo’s success, or lack thereof, with young pitchers… something for you to look forward to!

By the hawks r cursed for trading Nique

March 10, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this

By Baseball Glossary: i know alot about baseball and am about as hardcore a Braves fan as youll find. Hampton is not a big game pitcher compared to glavine and facts prove it! Do u not remember hamptons game 5 against houston a few years back where the game was out of reach by the time bobby cox brought in a reliever in the 5th inning! I was so p**…i wanted smoltz to start that game so bad even thou he was the closer at the time. I knew before that game Hampton wasnt a big game pitcher and i stand by that to this day! Hampton is either a good pitcher or terrible accoring to the time of the year….but never has been a Great pitcher!!

By Head Coach

March 10, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

Mr.Baseball , you left out The 1993 free agent acquisition of Maddux by Schuerholz. Which of course was and is the greatest free agent pick up of all time. Greg Maddux picked up three Cy Young awards and went 194-86 in his eleven seasons in Atlanta. Did I mention Fred McGriff who pounded out 140 home runs from 1993-1997. How about Terry Pendleton and his 1991 MVP season ? Andres Galarraga and his 1998 monster season of 44 HR’s and 121 RBI. Gary Sheffield , Russ Ortiz , Rafael Belliard , Sid Bream etc. etc. etc. You want to try and skewer John Schuerholz and run it by me , think again pal. Your blog moniker of Mr.Baseball is insulting to say the least. You need a new name that fits your style , like Mr. amateur.

By Robert

March 10, 2007 10:39 AM | Link to this

“You see, that’s the part that baffles me. You’re willing to NOT let Bobby take all (or any. LOL!), of the credit, because the teams were loaded with talent, as you have said MANY times. But when disecting the HEART AND SOUL of the Braves for the last 15 years, the pitching, you want to give Leo the majority of the credit when 3/5 of his rotation were sure fire, 1st ballot HOFr’s for a dec”

N8 - I dont think Leo made the big three into great pitchers. He probably had the most effect on Glavine in that regard. I DO give Leo’s regimen some credit. Now maybe these guys wouldve stayed healthy for such a long time anyway, but it’s very uncommon.

The thing is - Leo was here, we won 14 straight. Leo left, and we had a losing season. Now, it’s arguable whether Leo was the reason, and his relative underachievment with the O’s gives credence to casting doubt on things. BUT, the same basic fact makes it CLEAR that it WAS NOT Cox - i.e. - Cox is still here but the streak is over.

“Chen, Marquis & Perez couldn’t get out of Atlanta fast enough, and the Braves traded just about every other young pitching prospect they developed, which may or may not have been a tacit admission by the GM that his pitching coach could not properly develop said tale”

Three guys who didnt succeed under Leo. Because Leo is a PITCHING coach, and these three guys were and are brain dead heavers - who thought they could throw it by anybody and therefore didnt need to know how to PITCH.

The only guys with any real talent that the Braves ever let go was Schmidt and Millwood.

Put it this way - what little success the loaded teams had disappeared when Leo left.

By pompousN8

March 10, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this

Just found a “video clip” on ESPN’s website, where Steve Phillips made a comment that can be considered a silver lining in the Mike Hampton injury. He basically said that while being a setback, this injury could actully give his arem the extra couple of months to recover from the surgury, thus making him, quite possibly, more efffective, right out of the gate, than had he started the season in the rotation.

Not sure whether I can agree or disagree with that. After all, it is Steve Phillips we are talking about, and I’ve always considered him to be kind of a pompous jerk……..oh wait!

THAT’S ME!!!!

MBATL……I’ll be patiently waiting. :-)

Robert…..I can live with that.

Head Coach…..I mentioned to Mr. Baseball the Greg Maddux signing, when arguing with him last night. I have always considered that a NO BRAINER, and I’m not so sure that ANYBODY other than the Braves success in 91 and 92 for Maddux making that decision. Remember that the Yankees offered him more money and he turned it down.

So my guess is this: Had the Cubs made a reasonible offer to keep him, or an effort to improve the team to give him a shot at the WS, he would’ve stayed their. He has recently said that he was interested in going to SD at the time, but if I recall, due to us getting McGriff in 1993, they were in fire sale mode, so they surely weren’t gonna offer Greg Maddux a bunch of money. Leaving the Braves. Ultimately, you have to assume, that the Braves were HIS CHOICE of where to play. And since he took LESS money to come play for Bobby (and pitch with Glavine, Avery and Smoltz), maybe we should be giving credit to those 3 guys for Maddux joining up. All I’m saying, is that JS, while being a pretty darn good GM, who should get credit for a LOT OF THINGS in the last decade and a half, probably did the LEAST ammount of work he’s had to do with free agents, when signing Greg Maddux, IMO.

As far as Fred McGriff, the RESULTS make it one of the better mid-season moves in baseball history. But the trade itself was ANYTHING but spectacular. YES, JS should get credit for NOT GIVING UP KLESKO in the deal. But other than that, based on what we actually gave up, I’m not sure that there was anybody else even bidding for McGriff’s services. LOL!

Kinda like when we were trying to dump Millwood, IMO. Hindsight says we did pretty darn good with Johnny Estrada, but at the time, Braves fans were screaming at the top of their lungs, saying “that’s all we got for Millwood???”. When somebody HAS to get rid of somebody and NOBODY is offering anything for him, somebody’s gonna get a good deal. JS happened to be that somebody. But again, I’ll commend him for having the patience to “wait it out” and avoid giving up Klesko. But that, along with trading for Denny Neagle, are to of the BIGGEST NO BRAINERS in his tenure.

By KC

March 10, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

MR. Baseball: I’ll say only this, and then I’m done… All a GM can do is put together a team that’s capable of competing for a World Series title. Then it’s up to the players to get it done.

John Schuerholz put his team in a position to win the World Series for 14 straight years. My god… 14 STRAIGHT YEARS! That’s really unbelievable when you think about it.

Yes, John Schuerholz walked into a good situation. But as we all know, most teams that rise to the top fall back down again within just a few years (except for the Yankees who have been able to buy a winning team every year over the last decade).

The Braves had a darn good payroll for most of those years, but there a number of teams with as much or more money to spend that did not achieve nearly the success the Braves did. And he kept the run going several years after having to make substantial payroll slashes. Now, after seeing the streak snapped, he’s managed (on a tighter budget than both of our key division rivals) to put a team together with a great chance of starting a new streak.

Another huge factor in the Braves’ and John Schuerholz’s success that you’re not taking into account is his leadership. I read a book not too long ago called Good to Great which was based on a long study of the some of the most successful companies in the nation. After reading this book and then reading Schuerholz’s book, I saw remarkable similarities between the way these best-of-the-best companies were led, and the way Schuerholz has led the Braves. JS has a gift for getting the right people in the right positions and then empowering them to do their job. It’s that organizational leadership, and not just his ability to wheel and deal, that has made John Schuerholz what he is today… the best in the business.

Mr. Baseball, the fact is that this team was among the best in baseball (until last year) every year since 1991… UNDER JOHN SCHUERHOLZ’S LEADERSHIP. If you want to chalk it up to 14 years of dumb luck, go right ahead, but I’ve never seen dumb luck last that long.

By MBATL

March 10, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this

PompousN8TheBlogHog :), I had the same thought about Hampton, and an extra month of recovery… but you’re right; if Phillips said it, it’s probably not true.

By pompousN8

March 10, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

To add to what I’ve stated about JS, I’ll say this.

When judging a GM, I think the more important thing to take into consideration, isn’t who he threw ownerships money around to. But rather, WHO HE DIDN’T.

Buy low, sell high.

JS traded for Sheffield. We got our two years out of him, and LET HIM WALK when he wanted a new deal. Many thanks for you time, Mr. Sheffield.

Jaret Wright? We got him DIRT CHEAP of the scrap pile. Big year with the Braves, time to cash in right? Not with us. Many thanks for your time, Mr. Wright. I’m sure the Yankees will bite though…..good luck with that.

When a team is desperate for a need (say a closer), the EASIEST thing to do, would be to overspend on that need, either in the free agent market, or via trade.

We can all rag on JS for “not pulling the trigger” last off-season on a closer. But that had to do with our own selfishness, and desire for the “streak” to continue. But in hindsight, look what he’s done for the bullpen now, with our “limited” budget. Sure we missed the playoffs last year. THAT SUCKED. But had he jumped the gun and REDICULOUSLY over bid, for a guy like Billy Wagner or Trevor Hoffman, where would our payroll be?

Sometimes, the best moves a GM makes are the ones he DOESN’T make, when looking at the big picture.

By TheSouthernJackAss

March 10, 2007 11:50 AM | Link to this

Ode to a Mockingbird….I love to hear the Mockingbird that sits up in my tree….I wonder why he sings so much, or if he sings to me….He sits up on a branch so high, so he can fly away….But I know that he likes it there, and that he wants to stay!….

I love to hear the Mockingbird that sits up in my tree….If I could reach the limb he’s on, I’d put him on my knee….I’d tell him what a joy he is, to listen to each day….And that I’d like to understand, just what he has to say….

I love to hear the Mockingbird that sits up in my tree….I wish he had a friend sometime, so happy he would be….I guess that I could be his friend, for he does comfort me….On lonely nights and rainy days, because I cannot see….

By MBATL

March 10, 2007 11:50 AM | Link to this

HERE is an article I stumbled across, a prediction on who the Braves might draft with their 1st pick this year… what a luxury to pick all the way up at #14 for a change. Anyway, for anyone interested…

By Head Coach

March 10, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

The Fred McGriff trade wasn’t spectacular ? Yo N8 , where are Melvin Nieves , Donnie Elliott and Vince Moore ? Where… They are the three warm bodies that were traded for McGriff. Yea, it was and still is a spectacular trade. Schuerholz got four seasons , 140 HR’s and 446 RBI for NOTHING ! THAT IS THE VERY DEFINITION OF SPECTACULAR. O yea, there is that World Series thing in 95.

By pompousN8

March 10, 2007 12:24 PM | Link to this

Head Coach

You know I respect you and enjoy our “conversations”.

But you’re missing my point. If I’ve stated it incorrectly, I’ll rephrase as to clarify my stance/opinion on that trade.

As I stated before, the TRADE ITSELF was spectacular. The RESULTS of that trade are/were spectacular. What we got in that trade vs. what JS gave up was spectacular in comparison.

But leading up to that trade, I was following very closely and PRAYING that we make that move, for two reasons. Even before that trade, Fred McGriff was one of my favorite players, and we DESPERATELY needed his thunder in the middle of our lineup.

But considering that NOBODY else was offering ANYTHING to the Padres for Fred McGriff, JS didn’t have to OFFER ANYTHING EITHER.

Believe me. I’m giving credit to JS for holding out, and not having to give up Klesko in the deal. That was very patient and wise on his part. But considering the “3 amigos” that we gave up in that deal, THAT ALONE tells me what else was “on the table” for the Padres to take from other teams, at the time. Doesn’t it?

Good job by JS? Yes. His “finest” maneuvering as a GM? Hardly.

Even when looking at the Denny Neagle trade (another trade that netted some nice results for us), his decision was EASY. Ron Wright had NO PLACE on our big league club in the future, and neither did Jason Schmidt. It took Schmidt a couple of more years to become what he became. And we all know that Bobby’s and Leo’s patience had worn thin with him already. So that trade was ALSO a NO BRAINER.

Don’t mistake my comments on the McGriff trade as a slam on JS. They’re not. I appreciate what he has done, and what he will continue to do before he leave. Which is put this team in the best position to win, with the budget he is given. But I stand by my comments that he had to anything but put an offer on the table for the Padres and WAIT for them to accept it. I’m sure there were many phone calls that went back and forth between them. So don’t think that I’m saying JS didn’t “work” on that trade. But it’s not like there wer 15 other teams lining up to take McGriff.

Remember that when that trade was made, it was in the Pre-Wildcard time of Baseball. There were about 2-3 teams that even remotely thought they had a chance to contend for division titles at that time, and we had an owner that was WILLING TO SPEND, so taking on McGriff’s salary and gambling that he would re-sign was merely an afterthought.

If JS would’ve pulled of that trade, say three years later with 10 teams bidding for McGriff via trade, I’d be more inclined to PRAISE him for pulling a fast one. But, IMO, the Padres had NO BETTER OFFER than those 3 scrubs.

L8R

By Metropolitan Man

March 10, 2007 12:26 PM | Link to this

Afternoon brave bloggers. You guys are looking good so far this spring, will it carry over in the the regular season??? I’ve seen all the Hampton reports and the bullpen reports, I think things are starting to even out in the NL east before the 1st pitch is thrown. Remember you guys were suppose to have the elite rotation in the NL east but now you guys are looking suspicious just like the METS and philthies. Now Pedro is starting to look a lot more attractive than hampton even though he is only light tossing. So with that said, cant wait to see if your enthusiasm carries over when the METS invade the TED next month. Oh, wonderful job C Rogers, just curious, who are you favorite proffessional teams?????

By Bob, journalist

March 10, 2007 12:38 PM | Link to this

N8,

In the old days, we called it buy high, sell higher. Buying low was nice work when you could get it, but usually meant buying a pig in a poke … better to buy when there’s been some evidence that the stock is rising or about to anyway … and then sell when you sense it’s about to fall.

Of course, it was always good to be able to detect the presence of insider trading on both ends of the transaction … as Shaun would say, “evidence” that something was about to happen.

Dunbar’s “mask” was like Fielding’s “Tom Jones” … different from all his others … enjoyable, but hard reads both.

Never heard the MBird ode before … think I like Pike better ” … When Death shall cast his blight
over the spirit, my cold bones shall rest beneath these trees; and from thy swelling breast, over them pour thy song, like a rich flood of light”.

Is Redman starting today?

By Gil in Mechanicsville

March 10, 2007 12:57 PM | Link to this

Sometimes it is just the right combination of players to get it done. I have seen Baltimore club houses implode from bad chemistry no matter how much money was thrown into them.

The difference in the Mets and the Braves this season is the staff of the Mets is going to qualify for the AARP discount when they travel.

Big difference when one of your starting pitchers is 40 and all of your pitchers are 40.

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 1:06 PM | Link to this

Bob: Yes, Redman will toe the slab for the Bravos first. Getting ready to begin vs. the Jays at Happy Place USA.

—30—

By Salty

March 10, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this

Gil You said: The difference in the Mets and the Braves this season is the staff of the Mets is going to qualify for the AARP discount when they travel.

Darn it! Won’t that just free up more cash for the Mets to spend!?! The rich get richer!!

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 1:18 PM | Link to this

Redman first inning: one strikeout, faced four hitters (Matt Stairs fanned, but reached on a dropped third strike).

—30—

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this

CORREX: Redman’s base runner in the first actually reached by being hit with a pitch, and it was Aaron Hill, not Matt Stairs. And Redman just did it again in the second.

Maybe the control’s jumpin’ around a little bit. Either that, or he didn’t have anybody standing at the plate in those “simulated games” he pitched at his Oklahoma home.

—30—

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 1:24 PM | Link to this

Chipper just booted one down the line, putting runners on the corners in the second.

Sorry about the boo-boo above; trying to listen to both the Braves and the Cardinals game, all while putting in a rare Saturday at the office.

(By the way, for those of you on the coast, Wainwright’s allowed two hits so far in the first inning, after seven no-hit innings total in his first two starts for the World Series champs).

—30—

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this

Chipper just made amends, starting a 5-3 double play to get Redman out of the jam. One and a half in the books at Happy Place USA, no score.

—30—

By Bob, journalist

March 10, 2007 1:26 PM | Link to this

Maybe we could use Redman as our payback pitcher … doesn’t seem to have trouble hitting hitters … and must have an out pitch too. Have Chipper’s toe problem’s expanded to his legs … he’s okay … they just gave him another chance.

By Head Coach

March 10, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this

N8, thats a nice job of backing up.

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this

Trouble in the third: Redman throws wildly to first to let a hitter reach base, and a bunt that stayed fair has runners on the corners with no outs.

—30—

By hk

March 10, 2007 1:39 PM | Link to this

… great article today by Dan Wetzel on the DirectTV thing that idiot Selig is jamming down the throats of the fans … Wetzel makes me mad sometimes, but this expresses my sentiments precisely :))

here’s the link

… speaking of links, here’s a great article on Patrick Ewing Jr, now following in his father’s footsteps at Georgetown … always really liked Patrick, have two sons myself (and 6 grandsons , same kind of feeling :))

here’s that link

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 1:40 PM | Link to this

Braves and Redman nearly got out of it. Hung up the runner on third in a rundown on a fielder’s choice for out one, then a caught stealing of third for out two.

But Stairs just tripled, past a diving AJ, to score the game’s first run. 1-0 Jays, with Lance Cormier warming up to come in for the fourth inning. Also to pitch today for the Braves: Soriano, Boyer and McBride.

—30—

By Head Coach

March 10, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this

Redman… two innings , two strikeouts.

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 1:42 PM | Link to this

Redman gets a groundout to end the third. 1-0 Jays.

By my count (and I’ll post an update if I’m wrong), but Redman’s line is:

3 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 0 BB, 2 K, 2 HBP.

—30—

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 1:46 PM | Link to this

Oh, Canada: Scott Thorman and Pete Orr with singles in the bottom of the third (Orr hitting for Redman, so the lefty is done).

Kelly Johnson just hit into a double play to end the inning. Through three at Dark Star, 1-0 Jays.

—30—

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this

Soriano, not Cormier, in to pitch the fourth. Soriano gets a flyout to the warning track for the first out.

And by the way, Redman’s run was unearned, a product of his throwing error. And one of the two hits was a bunt single that Chipper let roll down the line at third, but it stayed fair. The other hit, the RBI-triple by Stairs that AJ dove at in the third with two outs.

I think you’ve got to be happy with this performance if you are the Braves. Redman comes in to camp and pitches three innings. Little rusty, perhaps, with hitting two hitters, but he pitched around that and two errors (one his own) and allowed just the one run.

Soriano’s got two outs with nobody on in the fourth. Pete saying on the broadcast that Soriano’s hitting 94 with his fastball, and he just got a strike with his slider.

—30—

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 1:52 PM | Link to this

1-2-3 fourth for Soriano with a strikeout. 1-0 Jays to the home half of the fourth.

—30—

By Bob, journalist

March 10, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this

“… because a spreadsheet can’t measure passion” … where have I heard that before?

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

March 10, 2007 1:55 PM | Link to this

Looks like or should I say sounds like (listening to Pete and Skip on XM) Redman had a pretty decent first outing. He seemed to be a little wild and rusty but that has to be expected since he has missed three weeks of spring training and his only workouts were back home in Tulsa. I think Cox and JS have to be pretty pleased. How many guys could get signed Friday morning, show up and pitch the next day, and only allow one run in three innings and it could be argued that run wasn’t his fault. Not bad at all.

I am not getting ahead of myself though. Lets just hope this is a sign of things to come. As I stated last night, if Redman does well, once Hampton does return the Braves rotation could be quite solid (Smoltz, Hudson, James, Redman, and Hampton with Davies, Cormier? {could be traded}, and even Harrison down in the minors as backup.

By the way, good post MetroMan. But, let me ask you how is ‘ol Sanchez doing these days. Seems like Duaner has a bit of an attitude problem and Willie Randolph doesn’t like it or is taking it. That’s good. Despite him being the Mets manager he is a good man. Good to see him standing up and making his players be held accountable.

By AnnistonBoy

March 10, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

Florida asswhips Georgia just like I claimed would happen.

Now who is with me in calling for the firing of Mark Richt and replacing him with the NCAA’s first female football coach?

By Jeff R

March 10, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

Schuerholz set the standard for most of the younger GMs around the majors. He re-emphasized pitching and defense over hitting. It is a tried and true formual that works. Has the man made mistakes, sure. But, on balance, he’s been a roaring success. And as a friend used to say, “If you want perfection, you need to die and go to heaven.”

As to the Braves mid to late decade, if you step back you’ll see it’s a team in transition. Schuerholz is trying win while managing the tranistion to a younger generation of players (and on an ownership-imposed cheap budget, too). If he succeeds, they should enshrine him before he retires.

By ernesto

March 10, 2007 2:10 PM | Link to this

hk thanks for the link on the Directv screwing MLB is giving its fans. I’ve been following this story and it is so mind boggling to me that MLB just doesn’t care. I can’t imagine a season without the Braves but MLB.com sucks. Far less games on TBS, no Extra Innings, it’s tough year to be a transplanted Braves’ fan. Selig sucks!!!!!!

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 2:13 PM | Link to this

Cormier allowed one hit, but fanned three, in the fifth. Still 1-0 Jays, midway through today’s festivities at the Evil Empire.

And what in the heck does Georgia football/basketball have to do with the Braves? Just wondering.

—30—

By Greg in TN

March 10, 2007 2:17 PM | Link to this

Afternoon folks…

The Redman experiment is well underway… So far so good. Something to build on, indeed.

scribe, again, appreciate your updates.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

March 10, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this

same reason they invented On Star.. Some people cannot read a map….

By pompousN8

March 10, 2007 2:25 PM | Link to this

Head Coach

You said:

“N8, thats a nice job of backing up.”

Are you accusing me of backpeddling on my “stance”, or ACTUALLY saying “nice job” of backing up what my point was?

:-) LOL!

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 2:33 PM | Link to this

Andruw’s missed dive in the third led to the Jays’ first run, but he just got it back, and then some.

AJ blasted a long home run, his first of the spring, way up into the berm in left field, a two-run shot to give the Braves a 2-1 lead in the sixth.

—30—

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

Back-to-back: McCann with a homer to follow AJ’s blast. 3-1 Braves.

—30—

By hk

March 10, 2007 2:36 PM | Link to this

Bob,

” because a spreadsheet can’t measure passion ”

… now Bob, you ‘know’ I have to bite on that one :))

… why of course spreadsheets can measure passion, almost every one I have posted on this blog over the past year does so !! … the procedure is always the same, develop 8-10 criteria for something, like ‘Why People Blog’ … then you weight each criteria so the total adds to 100 … then you grade out some individuals, like I did last summer in the example above, when I graded out you, Jimmy, Carolina Lady and myself 0-100 on each criteria, multiplied each times the weightings, came out with a weighted performance grade for each (you guys ended up in the 90 something range, I was in the low 70’s :))

… the point is, I expressed my ‘passions’ in the criteria I selected, the weightings of the criteria, and how I felt about each of you guy’s (and my own) performance on the blog …

… the trick is, and this is what I was trying to convey to Shaun the other day, is to be very aware and skeptical of the hidden biases buried in one’s own passions when expressed in a spreadsheet (or anywhere else for that matter :))

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 2:58 PM | Link to this

A good three innings for Cormier: three hits allowed, five strikeouts, no runs, no walks (I believe).

—30—

By pompousN8

March 10, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

I’m telling you all right not - take it from a pompous “no it all”, Lance Cormier is gonna be the surprise of the rotation this year.

By hk

March 10, 2007 3:06 PM | Link to this

… Braves pitchers, 8K, zero BB through 7, not too shabby …

By MEB

March 10, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

Weighing Carolina Lady… not proper of a gentleman to weigh a lady regardless of the passion involved.

Cormier pitched a strong 4 innings. Still 3-1 Braves in the bottom of the 8th.

By Bob, journalist

March 10, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

HK, nobody said you didn’t have passion!

All I know is that some blogger said ” Wetzel makes me mad sometimes, but this expresses my sentiments precisely” … and

checking out the link, Wetzel had said “… because a spreadsheet can’t measure passion” which also expresses my sentiments precisely … it doesn’t take an expert to recognize that as evidence that we agree!

By Carolina Lady

March 10, 2007 3:18 PM | Link to this

MEB, that is a riot! :-))))))) (You’re well these days?)

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 3:19 PM | Link to this

Indeed. Cormier pitched the eighth, 1-2-3. McBride in for the ninth.

McBride’s got the first two out of the ninth. 4-1 Braves. Bohn drove in Blanco in the eighth for the fourth run of the day.

McBride goes 1-2-3 in the ninth with two K’s, by far his best performance of the spring. Ten strikeouts total by Braves pitching today, a good day all the way around.

(Maybe the Redman/Cormier performance: 7 IP combined, six hits, one run, no walks, seven strikeouts, will calm the worry of the masses).

Have at it, folks. I’m off deadline and now the game is over. The weekend, abbreviated as it may be, begins now. The Scribe abides.

—30—

By Carroll

March 10, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

Mr. Baseball: I enjoyed your little diatribe and agreed with pretty much everything. I just wanted to correct you about one thing: the Walt Weiss play WAS in the 1999 playoffs—you suggested that it came some time after 1999, in that it was “the only time since 99 that they advanced past the first round.” I do however agree that that one play was the most memorable of the last decade….that was back when some of the Braves refused to accept the proposition that they could actually lose in the first round.

I’ve also often wondered about Mazzone’s inability to groom young pitchers, but you’re only giving him credit for the short success of Avery….what about Glav and Smoltz? And don’t forget that Doggie was still somewhat young and raw when he got here. And the three you mentioned (Perez, Chen and Marquis) turned out to be total turds even after leaving Atl….2 due to bad attitudes, and one (Chen) due to a total lack of attitude/spine. If nothing else, Leo gave his pitchers structure, confidence, and a plan, whereas Roger seems to just tell ‘em to go out and throw it over the plate. Hopefully he proves me wrong this season.

By Daybed Wagmoe

March 10, 2007 3:24 PM | Link to this

is 94.9 actually broadcasting the games? i’ve turned my radio to it several times during the games, but haven’t heard anything yet.

By Robert

March 10, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this

Here’s my thoughts on JS

1)The guy has done a far better than average job as far as making trades. Relatively few good prospects were let go cheap, and we made a few doozie trades, which of course require two things - the balls to ask “Hey, hoiw about Melvin Nieves for Fred McGriff” and someone on the other side dumb enough to accept that offer

Things change when you no longer have the big budget - and you’re no longer dealing from such a decided position of power - Sooooo,

2)JS’s options have become more limited as his budget has failed to keep up with the times and the competition. With that, some of the trades became more even, or occasionally even bad for the Braves. “Hey we’ll give ya Millwood for Estrada” response “Um, ok. Are you SURE?”

3)My BEEF with JS is twofold

For one, he is very much a company man. The attitude towards Francoeur this year demonstrated that. It’s wonderful for the bottom line, sometimes lousy for the fans. Secondly, he has failed to correct one glaring problem. But, viewed from his standpoint as a company man, it’s understandable to a point, because Donk is also a big time company man.

The success of the Braves since 1990 is far more as a corporate enterprise than as a baseball team on the field

My beef exists because I am a fan, not a stockholder. I want rings, not profits or dividends

By Robert

March 10, 2007 3:44 PM | Link to this

Now this one’s gonna be unpopular.

Folks, I dont think JS gives a HOOT about championships. He wants the bottom line. To achieve that, especially with an ever relatively more constrained budget requires strict adherence to the corporate philosophy.

And THIS is why he keeps Donk. THIS is why he says Donk is a great manager. Because, as a systems corporate guy, Donk is wonderful - he doesnt rock the boat, he doesnt question the authority of those above him or denegrate those above him, he doesn’t break the chain of command

For example, a good field manager wouldve been very vocal about demanding help for the bullpen last season. Donk doesnt do that. The players love it, cuz they never get put down. He backs them. What he is really doing is walking the company line.

Sound business practice, horrible field management

The marriage of JS and Donk all these years has been awesome, for whoever happens to own the Braves. It has been a cruel tease of a flirtation with true greatness for the fans

By MEB

March 10, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

CL… Very well! Nice to have you and Bob around lately. Love this time of year and the anticipation of a great year by our Braves. Will be in Atlanta for opening day and also catch the Saturday game against the evil Mets. Gotta love baseball!

Hey, please remember my town of Enterprise, AL in your prayers. We had the terrible 1 March tornado that killed 8 kids at the high school. The high school and an adjoining elementary school are destroyed. Lots of support down this way so the town is well on its way to recovery. The path for that thing took it right over my neighborhood. Fortunately it withdrew back into the cloud just a half mile from us. Don’t think I will ever be casual about a tornado warning ever again.

By David O'Brien

March 10, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

Robert, that might well be the worst post you’ve had in your endless diatribes. I mean, seriously, you don’t believe all the b.s. you’re spouting, do you? I certainly hope not, because if so, you’ve just shown how completely out of touch you are with not just the Braves, but the inner workings of baseball teams in general.

And just out of curiosity, if Schuerholz were only concerned with the “bottom line” _ whatever the hell you mean by that _ why didn’t he just tell Cox to go with Davies and Cormier at the back of rotation, or move Villarreal to the rotation (he did quite well in limited starts last year) and use some of the bullpen depth they have to fill in? Why did he spent another $750,000 to $1.25 mill on Redman? Just curious what your savvy take will be on that move.

Seriously, if you put real thought into it and came to the simplistic, ridiculous conclusion you just offered, then you have revealed yourself to be completely, unequivocally uninformed on the entire managment side of baseball.

I really believe my mother could offer a more astute observation than that pearl you just gave us.

Seriously, you can do better. Read a couple books about the sport and its inner workings before you dip back into the area. Or stick to hee-haw critiques of the manager. Because you’re in way over your head if that’s your amateur analysis of the Schuerholz-Cox tandem in Atlanta.

By David O'Brien

March 10, 2007 4:04 PM | Link to this

Those of you commenting on Cormier’s performance: I gotta agree. It took a while for me to give him any credit last year, but the guy does seem to know how to pitch and get a lot out of his hardly overwhelming stuff.

For what it’s worth, a couple days ago I submitted my projected roster to Sports Illustrated for their preview issue (I’m their Braves correspondent, which really only amounts to sending them info, storylines, stats, etc, that their writers use) and I put Cormier over Davies. Just my gut feeling.

I just don’t think the Braves want to go through the three-inning shellings and inconsistencies with Davies that they experienced last year, and he’ll probably have to convince them he’s past all that over the next three weeks to get the job. Davies might _ might _ be better off starting out at Richmond.

By Carolina Lady

March 10, 2007 4:09 PM | Link to this

MEB, thank you! And yes, I give you my promise that Enterprise will continue to be in my prayers. Having lived through natural disasters, I know the long-range effects they have on the people long after the debris is cleared and buildings replaced. God bless them!

By Greg in TN

March 10, 2007 4:19 PM | Link to this

4-1 Braves against the Canucks… er Jays… Lot’s of positives to draw from this game for those that are so inclined.

Andruw’s homer, and going 2-3 which brings his BA up to .263 and McCann’s homer at the very next at bat.

Redman went 3. He did give up an earned run, however as I said before, this is something for him to build on. Cormier went 4 for the win, gave up 3 hits but also struck out 5. Soriano seemed to be effective and McBride struck out two in the ninth for the save. Nice job all the way around for Braves hurlers.

Three stolen bases today with none caught stealing. McCann did throw out Duncan trying to steal in the 3rd.

All in all, a good day at the ballpark.

By Bob, journalist

March 10, 2007 4:34 PM | Link to this

Hi MEB!

We tried to follow the storms closely as they passed through Alabama … with relatives from both sides living and working there (none in Enterprise to my knowledge) … saw coverage showing the school, immediately following the storm, I think … a horrible, horrible tragedy that that left us stunned! I missed part of the report but my wife said that she understood that it hit the very spot where the kids had been taken to ride out the storm.

We were lucky … bad stuff all around us … but just very heavy rain with a little hail, some wind and heavy thunder.

Unless you’ve been through one, it’s impossible to imagine … my brother lives in Roswell, GA where one touched down in his backyard not too long ago … rooting up and relocating several truly gigantic trees as if they were nothing … and throwing huge limbs hundreds of feet as if they were tiny spears! That’s nothing compared to what you folks experienced but it does give one appreciation of the awesome power.

By Greg in TN

March 10, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB,

Coming into the spring, I wanted to keep an open mind on either Cormier or Davies and to this point, I definitely agree with you. Everything else being equal, as long as Redman doesn’t slip from here on I think we see Redman and Cormier rounding out the starting rotation and Davies beginning the year in Richmond.

By Greg in TN

March 10, 2007 4:38 PM | Link to this

MEB,

The tragedy in Enterprise was terrible to see, having gone through a minor one here, there is a helpless feeling. The folks there are in our thoughts and prayers here. I am glad to hear you came through it all without further injury or harm to you and yours.

By TheSouthernJackAss

March 10, 2007 4:45 PM | Link to this

Yea Robert—if you’re going to sing in this choir—then get your a$s in tune!…

By Bob, journalist

March 10, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

Now I think HK’s miffed at me … like Mama used to say, he’ll have to go to the back of the line … I think I must have some form of the Midas Touch Curse. Unfortunately, whatever it is, it ain’t gold.

Well, I think the archive should be about ready … missed most of the last half of the game.

The pitching did sound pretty good and Redman seems to know something about damage control.

Later …

By eric the elder

March 10, 2007 4:53 PM | Link to this

Greg in TN, I’ve been in something of a funk over the blog in recent days, but, even though I suppose someone will find a crude thing to say about it, I want you to know how much I appreciate your posts. They are fresh and upbeat - - just the kind of stuff I enjoy reading here.

I will retreat back to my cave now, but I hope you and others will continue your good work in elevating the blog.

By mr baseball

March 10, 2007 5:01 PM | Link to this

Head Coach: I could have repeated some of my earlier posts regarding the outstanding moves Schuerholz made from 91-96, but I had already moved on. My rants are long enough already without having to regurgitate the same facts over and over, but it’s obvious you missed the point I was attempting to make.

One of the main reasons the Braves were the best team in baseball from 91-96 was the GM’s job performance. Since ‘97 however, the GM has not done his job at the same level he did his first 5 or so years with the Braves, which is a big reason the team’s fortunes have faded.

Why do you think the Braves have been on a gradual downward trend since ‘96? (Please don’t feed me the tired 14 years in a row gruel.) One reasonable explanation is the change in ownership. Another is that a number of the major personnel moves by the GM have failed, plain and simple.

The Braves began slipping in the post-season beginning in ‘97 IMMEDIATELY AFTER the trades of Grissom, Justice and Dye. The next downward trend started in 2000 IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Klesko/Boone trade. I realize I may be the only person on this blog who sees a correlation there. But until someone provides a better explanation of why the Braves went from a very good but not entirely successful post-season team (91-96); to one that won a playoff series or two before tanking (97-99); to a pretty pathetic playoff bunch (2000-05), I’m sticking with it.

One of the misguided trains of thought that has filtered down from the conventional wisdom of the too often sheep-like voices of the national media, is the belief that you judge athletes, coaches, GMs, owners, etc., not on how well they do their jobs but how well the team does. Every time some alleged NFL expert would pontificate about how Peyton Manning couldn’t be considered one of the great QBs because he never won a Super Bowl, I wanted to grab the nearest AK 47 and blast the TV.

Peyton Manning’s job is to put as many points on the scoreboard for the Colts as he can. If the Indy offense scored 5 TDs but the defense gave up 6, IT WAS NOT HIS FAULT THAT THEY LOST. As for Schuerholz, he is responsible for the player personnel decisions he makes. If he leaves his manager with no option other than to start the season with two broken down has-beens in RF and LF, but gets bailed out because the Braves have 3 competent major league ready rookie OFs on the way up, he failed in his job, even if the team succeeds.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think a major league GM has a whole lot to do with the farm system on a day to day basis. If Schuerholz has hands-on directed the drafting and development of the players who have come up through the farm system over the last 20 years, I stand corrected. That farm system was in place before Schuerholz got here, and produced almost all the key players from the 91-92 teams. The consistent success of the farm system, not the GM’s player personnel moves and not the manager, is the primary reason the Braves have been this good for so long, at least until last year.

Obviously, Schuerholz has done a very good job during his tenure here. But an examination of his record (not the team’s) indicates that he has made more than his share of mistakes, and those mistakes have played a very significant role in the team’s post-season futility over the last decade. I give him full credit for all the shrewd decisions he’s made, but some folks here don’t want to face up to his sizeable number of goofs, which have clearly stalled the team’s progress over the last decade.

Perfection is impossible to achieve in the GM’s line of work, but he was pretty close in that regard early on here. As good as he’s been, however, he’s made too many misguided trades to retain the “genius” tag he was granted during the early to mid 90s. That’s all I’m trying to say.

As to my blog designation that evidently offends you. It’s part homage to the ex-Braves catcher of modest repute you probably have heard of, and part personal joke dating back 25+ years and involving another sport.

And you are/were a head coach in what sport? Not debating, I’d guess.

By TheSouthernJackAss

March 10, 2007 5:03 PM | Link to this

Sure is a pessimistic bunch—no confidence in themselves I guess…

By David O'Brien

March 10, 2007 5:18 PM | Link to this

mr. baseball, you make a reasoned, thoughtful case. one that I can respect. I don’t agree with several points, but that’s fine, you stated your case and your reasoning. that’s appreciated and respected, as opposed to certain others’ wild and illogical arguments punctuated with barnyard noises.

By pompousN8

March 10, 2007 5:24 PM | Link to this

Mr. Baseball

You said:

“One of the main reasons the Braves were the best team in baseball from 91-96 was the GM’s job performance. Since ‘97 however, the GM has not done his job at the same level he did his first 5 or so years with the Braves, which is a big reason the team’s fortunes have faded. “

Which is just absurd. We had 3 HOF pitchers in their primem and another in Steve Avery who had yet to fall apart, (3 of which - Avery, Smoltz, and Glavine - which were in the SYSTEM before JS got there). That ALONE would’ve been enough for even a mediocre offense to overcome. Oh wait. In 1991 and 1992, we WERE A MEDIOCRE OFFENSE!

That is like saying that the SF 49r’s front office hasn’t done their job since Joe Montana and Steve Young have retired. I mean, really…..HOW HARD IS IT to really find guys to replace HOFr’s???

When Michael Jordan retired to play baseball, the Bulls management did a HORRIBLE job of replacing him, didn’t they. Then miraculously, when he “unretired”, the Bulls GM looked like a genius again.

I’ll assume you get my point. If you don’t. Good luck to you then. LOL!

By mr barbecue

March 10, 2007 5:35 PM | Link to this

Texas style is best.

gimme a longneck and pass the jalapenos.

By Bob, journalist

March 10, 2007 5:43 PM | Link to this

Mr. Baseball,

I sincerely wish I could … but I can’t agree with David O’B.

Your arguments are fine but “As to my blog designation that evidently offends you. It’s part homage to the ex-Braves catcher of modest repute you probably have heard of, and part personal joke dating back 25+ years and involving another sport” comes accross as being more than just a bit smug.

“And you are/were a head coach in what sport? Not debating, I’d guess” seems to me to be not only smug but insulting … and if it isn’t designed to antagonize and encourage unpleasant, offensive responses; it’s like the rose of another name.

By Bob, journalist

March 10, 2007 5:48 PM | Link to this

Mr. Baseball, apologies for accidently deleting the point that I was not addressing the issue of provocation.

By jed

March 10, 2007 5:54 PM | Link to this

Glad to see somebody else mention the possibility of Villareal as the 5th starter. How has he slipped through the cracks? Why does Cox favor Cormier over Villareal? Until Davies really shows something, I’m in favor of Villareal first, Cormier second, then Davies. Does anyone have the statistics on games started by Villareal and Cormier last year? Might be good to see a breakdown of that.

By The Grinch

March 10, 2007 6:05 PM | Link to this

Bob, while I’m not taking one side or the other in the HC/Mr. BB debate, I feel I ought to point out to you that while BB’s last post was smug and condescending, it was no more smug and condescending than the post he was replying to. Head Coach is a smug and condescending sort of guy and makes no apologies for it (reminds me a lot of myself, actually), and those of us who fire off broadsides like that here on a regular basis expect to receive the enemy’s fire in return, I believe. Since you’re not the sort of fellow who usually jumps on folks unfairly, I’ll refer you to the 10:38AM that sparked those comments. At least be impartial. And no, I’m not rattling your cage on purpose, Coach; I’m sure you’d say the same thing about me (and be right).

Off to go clubbing in Buckhead; I’ll see Y’all on the flipside. DOB, glad you’ve come around to my way of thinking on the Cormier/Davies situation. BTW, just tried to get Alison Krauss/Tony Rice tickets a couple of hours ago and they’re sold out. I hate it when that happens; you’d think since she was my girlfriend(she’s not aware of it yet) she’d have saved me a couple. Later.

By David O'Brien

March 10, 2007 6:21 PM | Link to this

The Grinch “clubbing in Buckhead?” Now I’m confused. You said I was pretty accurate in my visual of you living at the end of a dirt road, with a car out front that’s been on blocks being repaired for some time and stereo equipment, working and otherwise, strewn about the big old house. Now you drop a “clubbing in Buckhead” on us? That doesn’t jibe.

JED, here’s last year’s Cormier/Villarreal starter stats:

Cormier 2-4 with 4.31 ERA in nine starts, allowed 64 hits, 20 walks, 23 earned runs in 48 innings.

Villarreal 1-0 with 3.50 ERA in four starts, allowed 18 hits, three walks and seven earned runs in 18 innings.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, however you want to look at it), the Braves don’t much care what you or I think about Villarreal over Cormier, obviously, because Villarreal’s not in the competition for the fifth-starter job. Cox loves having him in bullpen because of his flexibility. I can see his point, especially since you can always plug Villarreal in for a spot start if needed, or if a starter is getting shelled in second inning Villarreal can go 4-5 innings in relief.

That said, I just think with all the bullpen depth this season, it wouldn’t have hurt to consider Villarreal for the fifth spot. But again, they like his rubber arm in the bullpen. He’s not competing for the rotation, at least not now. The fact they went out and got Redman indicated even more they have no interest in Villarreal moving to rotation.

By Head Coach

March 10, 2007 6:30 PM | Link to this

Blog check , just wanting to see if this goes through or if it mysteriously gets lost like my last post.

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

March 10, 2007 6:34 PM | Link to this

For what its worth (I know. It isn’t much.) here is what I think will happen. Redman will lock down the #5 spot in the rotation. Cormier (unless he has a meltdown) will lock down the #4 spot. Will place him #4 to breakup the lefties. Davies will start the year at Richmond and gain some more confidence. It is a bit of trick situation for the Braves because they don’t want to damage Davies’ confidence but I think he is better off in Richmond. However, if Davies pitches decently the rest of the way and Cormier continues to do what he has done, I could see JS dangling a package that included Cormier, Diaz/Langerhans, and Escobar/T.Pena/Orr for a trade. I would say any deal would have to be for either another quality starter or an outfielder who can step in and play LF everyday for now and probably LF or CF next year. Unless God brings a miracle Andruw is as good as gone. But, I think JS will only take top shelf talent in a deal (example: Baldelli from Tampa, Holiday from Colorado, one of the good young pitchers from Detroit, Cabrera from the Yankees).

I am less convinced right now than I was four weeks ago that a deal will be done. Both Diaz and Langerhans are having terrific springs, which could make it difficult to give them enough at bats. Wilson may get enough at bats by platooning at 1B. Thorman has stuggled so far. I think he will devlop into an everyday 1B but it may take a little time.

T. Pena is going to have to be traded because I do believe he is out of options. No way he will clear waivers and it doesn’t appear he has any shot at making the 25 man roster. Salty isn’t going anywhere right now.

I do feel good about this season. The Braves have some depth in the rotation right now. They have plenty of depth in the bullpen because Richmond will be loaded with good arms. The infield has quality depthh with Escobar, Orr, and Prado in Richmond. And, the outfield is in good shape as well with Blanco, McCarthy, and Bohn out there. Not to mention Brandon Jones will begin to have his chance. I also forgot to mention Lillibride in the infield. It is funny how different things can change in a year’s time.

By Braveheart

March 10, 2007 6:35 PM | Link to this

I am enjoying the debate here today as it is being waged by many of you. Enjoyable stuff.

How come no one though is really including the biggest problem with the modest decline of the Braves - which is the ownership group.

John S. ain’t perfect.

Neither is Bobby.

They are clearly though, to me, at least, the top tandem, in all of baseball.

I would like to see someone really break down the corporate ownership issue and how the performance of the team and John S. and Bobby has deteriorated since that point.

That is a big ingredient you all are missing from your arguments.

The reality is to me that John S. and Bobby have had their hands tied by the financial constraints of the ownership group.

Any dip in performance for John S. and Bobby can be directly traced back to the owners.

If we had good owners, would we have lost Maddux, Glavine, Millwood?

Wouldn’t we be talking about a far different team if the owners let John S. resign guys like that?

Wouldn’t we feel better if the rotation was Smoltz, Maddux, Glavine, Millwood, James today?

It would not be as good as the heyday of those guys but I think we would all know we we going to win 90, if not 95-100, games this year with those guys.

Wouldn’t we all feel better about this year if we had 1. Furcal, 2. Giles, 3. Chipper, 4. Sheffield, 5. Andruw, 6. McCann, 7. LaRoche, 8. Frenchy?

I understand that would be an expensive roster but there is no reason why it would not be affordable.

I think the corporate ownership has worried about the bottomline too much. There has not been enough of an expansion with the possibilities of this fan base and market. In fact, since they came along, there has been a contraction in the possibilities of this market.

TBS gave them a huge national and regional fan base. Not anymore. What a shame. It would have made sense if they started their own channel. What the heck would the potential be in the Southeast of a 24/7 Braves channel?

There is absolutely no reason the Braves should not rule the Southeast. there is no one around to compete with them. Just look at how crazy and rabid the SEC fans are. The Braves have that entire rabid fan base all to themselves. They have almost each and every SEC school within their grasp - that is how large this market is. If they could redirect at least a portion of the energy of the SEC fan base over to the Braves, this market size could be on the level with New York and Boston and L.A. and Chicago. But the corporate owners have not seen that. they are too shortsighted. they are squandering the opportunity.

Why aren’t there more black players on the Braves? This is often called in the African American community the Black Mecca. Why then would you ignore such a huge potential fan base? Is there any outreach at all to include this huge potential fan base? Any at all? That is not the fault of the GM or Bobby - that is an ownership issue.

You have all the Yankee transplants that hail from traditional baseball towns like New York, Boston, Philly, Chitown, Detroit, Cleveland. Has there been enough of an outreach to this fan base? Not at all.

Then you have all the people who were born here, raised here, and don’t give a darn if they go anywhere else. they just spit in the face of these people by taking them for granted. If Southern people grew up listening and watching and loving and hating certain announcers, what sense does it make to start screwing with the announcers who are more a part of this team, to the fans, than any player, manager, or owner? You are just spitting in the face of the native sons. For the native sons and daughters, the announcers, whether they love ‘em or hate ‘em, are the best friend for 6 months of the season (and for 14 years a seventh month of the season).

ESPN repeatedly says that the ATL is the worst professional sports town in America. Do the Braves ever fight back? It does not seem that way. Fighting back would not mean saying anything about - it just means you get out there with the people, mix it up, get them crazy about the Braves (and more importantly keep them crazy about the Braves).

UGA disappoints, performance wise, more than any school. The rabidity of the UGA fan base is without question though. They go to the games. It is because UGA has for the most part made themselves the defining sports symbol of Georgia. Most of their fans are not alumni or kids who attend. The Braves should find out how to make themselves that as well. If UGA copied the model of the Braves, the only people in Georgia who gave a flip about the team would be a very small fan base of alumni and undergrads.

I could go on and on and on about this.

Ted Turner was far from perfect. But with things like TBS, he had an innate understanding about what the potential of this fan base and region is.

These Spreadsheet Sams and Intrinsic Value Ians have no clue - probably because they ain’t from around here.

Don’t tell me you can not afford to sign your own stars and homegrowns.

Not until you honestly tell me that you have tried to expand and maximize the huge potential of this market.

By Head Coach

March 10, 2007 6:50 PM | Link to this

There are a couple of distinguished bloggers(you know who you are) who have failed to grasp the more than subtle changes in ownership and budget. John Schuerholz has been hampered by it to a certain degree. Yet until last season he somehow managed to put a division winner on the field. No matter how much some try to rewrite history and twist fact into some kind of fantasy in order to fit their own idea’s , the truth is Schuerholz , Cox and Mazzone are all Hall of Famers and nothing will change that fact.

By David O'Brien

March 10, 2007 7:00 PM | Link to this

What a difference a year makes, indeed. I was just starting some player info capsule things for the special section that comes out in three weeks, and I was seeing which of the forms I could use from last year. Came upon these three in alphabetical order: Ramirez, Reitsma, Remlinger. Next Smoltz, followed by Sosa and Thomson. Five out of six, zapped….

Robert (JIB), so you’re saying four weeks ago you really believed Andruw was going to be traded, as much as you’ve heard about why it’s not going to happen (he has 10-and-5 veto power and says he won’t agree to a trade; Boras says he’s playing here all season; Schuerholz says they have no interest in trading him. Other than that…. nothing standing in the way of a deal).

By John Hoar

March 10, 2007 7:04 PM | Link to this

BRAVEHEART-absolutely top notch!!

By Head Coach

March 10, 2007 7:08 PM | Link to this

As usual I did my homework and did some digging. Cormeir it seems developed a cut fastball and used it toward the latter part of last season. Hopefully he can continue to improve his performance with it. The Braves are 10 for 12 in the stolen base department in just nine spring training games. Considering they stole 52(last in the N.L.) in 2006 , this is an improvement. From what Ive seen from the box scores so far , the offense appears to be capable of scoring(57 runs in nine games) more than enough runs to support the pitching. Thats 6.3 runs per game so far , keep up the great work guys !

By Head Coach

March 10, 2007 7:37 PM | Link to this

Brad Delp passed away yesterday at 55. The lead singer of Boston with his distinctive voice will be missed and my heart is saddened.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFwIgbyrNhw

By TheSouthernJackAss

March 10, 2007 7:54 PM | Link to this

Golly..Gee Whiz..Provocation on the ol’ blog—and it ain’t even TheJackAss a doin’ the provocatin’…Shucks!…

By Braveheart

March 10, 2007 8:08 PM | Link to this

this is the timeline:

early 1990s: young team finding their way. paraphrasing what Pat Riley described in one of his books (the winner within, i think), teams often when they are young bang their heads on the ceiling looking to break through.

1994 - strike

1995 - they win it all

1996 - 2000 - yankees are far and away the best team. they win 14 world series games in a row.

2000 - 2006 - the AOL/Time Warner era, or as I and many others call it, the AOL/Time Warner error. Team is handcuffed by financial constraints of the owners. Owners slap the handcuffs on after Chipper and Andruw are paid what they are paid which further causes self-imposed salary cap woes. Every year they are forced to have a weakness in a certain area of the team - 1B, 2B, bullpen, bench, starters, and so on as a result of the needless financial constraints. They lose Maddux, Glavine, Millwood. As a result, they are essentially precluded from truly having a shot to win it all. No expansion and exploitation of the potential of the market. All shortisghted contraction. AOL/Time Warner not in it for the long haul - thus expansion not the concern - only short term profit margins which make the team a key asset for quick resale to another shortsighted media conglomerate who only cares about short term profit margins of the team because they will flip the team real fast as well.

2007 - present - Liberty Media era - what will it bring? a continued slow fall down to the level of mediocrity. I am deeply afraid of that.

Despite what many say (and especially one guy with the same first name of the manager), once Bobby and John S. leave, all we will be left with is the mindless, faceless owners. Does anyone seriously think that is going to be a good thing?

In many ways, with their talents and abilities, John S. has been the good mother and Bobby the good older brother of the family who have raised and sheltered the kids (the braves and their fans) from the evils and sins of their father (the owners).

Bobby and John are not perfect but they have done a better job continuing to raise the kids under the circumstances than almost anyone else would have.

The corporate ownership group is basically the father who abandons his kids, does not pay child support, and is so absentee that he is essentially faceless to his kids.

He does not care whether the kids go to school and eventually college, whether they are happy, or whether they have the things they need to thrive.

All he cares about is having alot of money in the bank for himself to play with (and not his kids or their mother).

Having more money in the bank for himself will enable this greedy slimeball to trade in his family at a later point for either a new family or better toys and luxuries to play with.

He merely provides them with enough to get by even though he can afford to provide more to his kids.

He is not the kind of father who will make whatever personal sacrifice he can to the detriment of himself at times so that his kids have a great life and the things they want and need in order to thrive and not just merely survive.

He comes around just long enough to make a further mess of the lives of the kids.

He seems hellbent on destroying the relationship of the kids with their beloved uncles Skip, Joe, Pete, and Don, who are the kid’s best friends and essentially the only stabilizing influence other than Mother John and Big Bro Bobby.

Complaints are made to DFCS (MLB), but they do nothing.

MLB and Evil Bud actually like and approve of the pathetic, selfish, fathering method of the Braves owners.

The fact that Bud was a terrible, selfish owner himself and would like nothing more than for the other owners to copy his model of poor fatherhood of a team so that they slowly slip down to the level of his pathetic example of fatherhood, is conveniently ignored by largely all of the media and the fans.

Instead of taking it out on the owners and MLB, the fans misdirect their ire at the players, manager, and GM.

The conflict of interest on Bud’s part is almost completely ignored.

Once Mother John and Big Bro Bobby leave us, the fans and the players will be left to fend for ourselves with that sonuvabitch ownership group we are forced to call the fathers of our team.

Hopefully, MLB will eventually step in.

Of course, by then, as with all things MLB related, they will be ten years too late, and the kids (the fans and the Braves) will be too screwed up to get it corrected without another painful 5 to 10 year corrective process.

The most ironic thing is that we all wish we could go back to the days when we were raised by our crazy real father, Ted Turner, because, at least he cared and did everything he could, even misguided things, to make sure that his children (the Braves and fans) had not only what they needed but also what they wanted in order to thrive and not just survive.

He wasn’t perfect but when he got his hands on a good woman (John S.) who turned out to be a good mother to his children and when his oldest son Bobby matured enough to be a great older brother to his younger siblings, all of the crazy well intentioned flaws of Father Ted became forgivable and actually became assets.

Or something like that :-)

Whew!

I will shut up for the night now!

By Bob, journalist

March 10, 2007 8:28 PM | Link to this

Thanks Grinch, I certainly concur … I had addressed provocation in the last paragraph of original post to Mr Baseball … but as my followup post tried to explain, I accidentally deleted it. While the followup didn’t say the provocation was there, the intent was to indirectly suggest acknowledgment.

However, Coach is as difficult to read as a first grade primer, as he himself freely admits … and he has shared his burdens with us on more than one occassion. I felt than anyone so skilled in the art of argument as Mr Baseball could have acheived his objectives, while as the same time avoiding armed combat.

Perhaps it would have been better had nothing been said … but methought being addressed and resolved would be a better solution than simply allowing it to fester.

Like the HeadCoach said when he apologized to the boys … “This was on my mind. Now, I freely admit my method was wrong. But I hope you can understand my motive, and accept this apology”.

Like I said earlier, these days, I seem to be cursed … and hope the General doesn’t mind.

By Greg in TN

March 10, 2007 8:36 PM | Link to this

Evening folks…

Eric, thank you for the kind words. I enjoy talking baseball, and my outlook is usually on the positive side. I guess it goes back to seeing where the franchise has been in the late 70s and through much of the 80s.

Braveheart, strong strong post. I agree with much of that and would like to expand on it a little bit. You asked about a bit of a breakdown on the ownership issue, here’s what I can add to that. First, USA Today has a salary database going back to 1988, here is how the total team salaries have fared from 1988 until last year:

1988 $9,967,167 18th out of 26 teams 1989 $9,551,334 22nd out of 26 teams 1990 $13,328,334 23rd out of 26 teams 1991 $20,423,500 20th out of 26 teams 1992 $32,975,333 11th out of 26 teams 1993 $38,131,000 7th out of 28 teams 1994 $40,502,167 3rd out of 28 teams 1995 $45,199,000 3rd out of 28 teams 1996 $47,930,000 3rd out of 28 teams 1997 $50,488,500 5th out of 28 teams 1998 $59,536,000 3rd out of 30 teams 1999 $75,065,000 3rd out of 30 teams 2000 $82,732,500 4th out of 30 teams 2001 $91,936,166 6th out of 30 teams 2002 $93,470,367 7th out of 30 teams 2003 $106,243,667 3rd out of 30 teams 2004 $90,182,500 8th out of 30 teams 2005 $86,457,302 10th out of 30 teams 2006 $90,156,876 9th out of 30 teams

Time Warner purchased Turner Broadcasting, and in turn the Braves in 1996. In looking at how the team fared in salary, we were among the top 3 in the league in payroll for each season up until 1997. Even the drop that season in salary wasn’t anything to really worry about and the club has been very competitive from a payroll standpoint since (within the top third of MLB).

When things really started getting dicey in Georgia was in January 2003 when Ted resigned from the Time Warner board as Vice Chairman. With a seat on the board, Ted still had a lot of say as to the financial obligations TW had toward the Braves. It wasn’t long after that Time Warner put the Hawks and Thrashers up for sale. With Ted off the board, the team became a line on their quarterly report.

One other thing to take into account is the financial considerations not only of the parent club, but of all of the minor league affiliates. Of the six in the Braves farm system, we own five (the exception is Myrtle Beach). I did a spot check of our NL East rivals, and selected three other franchises (the Dodgers, Yankees and A’s), and looking at each of those teams and their minor league affiliates, none of them come close. The Mets, Phils, Marlins and Yankees own two of their minor league affiliates, the Marlins and Dodgers one. That’s a lot of overhead folks, however it is also one of the reasons why our minor league system is rich in talent. That takes $$$.

I don’t think TW can be blamed as much from a payroll standpoint when you take into account total team payroll and when you look at the fact that the Braves spend an awful lot on both the farm system and scouting. However, there are some years where a little more payroll flexibility could have helped us keep some of the guys we’ve had to cut loose. We don’t have to spend $100 million dollars a year to put a product on the field that will win championship rings. The Tigers and Cardinals proved that last year. What has really hurt this franchise, is the fact that payroll inflexibility has cost us in retaining players and going out and addressing a need as aggressively as we’ve done in the past.

By TheSouthernJackAss

March 10, 2007 8:40 PM | Link to this

Must be that associative curse of TheJackAss!…

By Robert (Justice Is The Best)

March 10, 2007 8:55 PM | Link to this

No, no, DOB. I didn’t say I thought Andruw was getting traded. When I said I was convinced a deal would get done, I was referring to Diaz/Langerhans and Cormier/Davies/Villareal. I am well aware that Andruw is going nowhere. Unless some team is willing to pony up the money he wants right now, I don’t even see him contemplating a deal.

By Braveheart

March 10, 2007 9:03 PM | Link to this

10Greg, thanks for more fully fleshing out and qualifying my remarks and giving more objectivity to it.

Also, you are right including the 2003 Ted Turner thing was very important.

I am sure there many other factors which are beyond the scope of a mere blog to throw into the mix but are important to include in this argument to explain why a team can be so close but yet so far from ultimate greatness.

Hopefully, someday someone will write a great book detailing the history of the Braves here in Atlanta that will fully describe in detail all the pros and cons of Ted, JohnS., Bobby, the fans, the players, AOL/TW, Liberty Media, MLB, SEC football as the first love for many in the region, and how all of those factors spurred the 14 years of greatness but also prevented the team from true greatness.

If it was written in a detailed, objective, passionate way, it would be a great read. I am sure that many of us would appreciate it. Unfortunately, someone will probably write it in a simplistic way - either too filled with hero worship or too filled with criticism and, as a result, the point will get lost and we will continue to be left scratching our heads about it all.

Where did you get the stats on the salaries? I would like to be able to retrieve those sorts of things before I go off on my long winded rants where I say things that have truth in them but not complete objective truth. If you know the website, let me know. Thanks, man.

Go Bravos!

By Greg in TN

March 10, 2007 9:14 PM | Link to this

Braveheart,

I would grab a book like that in a heartbeat. It would be a very interesting read with so many variables. The salary database is at USA Today’s website, the link is below:

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/default.aspx

By Bob, journalist

March 10, 2007 9:18 PM | Link to this

Ha! Haa! Haaa! Oh Goodness, could be … but, I rather think it’s far more likely that a little too much of my mask has been stripped away … not by Dunbar but by me … and I’m now seen by some for what I am rather that what I’d like to be.

Never fear, true friends will understand … there’s much to be said for the connection between what you are and what you want to be.

By Gil in Mechanicsville

March 10, 2007 9:35 PM | Link to this

Just want to make a comment on what a great pick up of Redman. He did a really a good job to come in cold like that and pitch three innings.

Actually, it was a very good outing for all of the Braves pitchers in the game. It’s still early but the team is giving us plenty to smile about so far.

And Braveheart… Why don’t you write it? You are just as qualified as the next guy. PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTIAN

By David O'Brien

March 10, 2007 9:37 PM | Link to this

Robert (JIB), got it. It was a bit confusing, the way you worded it.

With the status of C. Wilson’s shoulder (sore, which is why he hasn’t played outfield), I’d say it’s become highly unlikely they trade away either Langerhans or Diaz, if it weren’t already unlikely before.

Don’t know how long it’s going to be before Wilson can make throws from outfield.

Chris Woodward’s supposed to start playing Tuesday, after the two games in Jupiter vs. Cards Sunday-Monday. He can also play the OF if needed.

By Head Coach

March 10, 2007 9:38 PM | Link to this

Looks like our multiple personality blogger is stealing other bloggers ID’s again. Dude , whoever you you. get a life ! O’Brien , between your pandering to Robert and the identity thief this blog is becoming childish. Grow up , people.

By Robert

March 10, 2007 9:55 PM | Link to this

“1996 - 2000 - yankees are far and away the best team. they win 14 world series games in a row.”

No

The Yankees were clear and away the best team in baseball in 1998, and only in 1998

In 96 and 97, the Braves were, except for one thing, the better team. 99 should’ve been a dogfight down to the last out of Game 7 of the World Series between the Braves and Yankees, with the winner claiming rights to team of the decade honors for the 90’s

DOB - 750K-1.25M on a very reasonable stopgap option for the rotation is absolutely in line with a bottom line corporate philosophy, far better than either trading a prospect or spending much more for a similar attempt at a solution to the newly evolved rotation problem. Look back a bit - I voiced the opinion that I liked the pickup of Redman.

By ssiscribe

March 10, 2007 10:45 PM | Link to this

Top of the evening. Usually, I like to jump in first thing in the morning on weekends. But with us losing an hour tonight for the time change and me teaching Sunday school in the morning, figured I’d go on and check in tonight on a few topics of interest to those of us denzines of the Braves/Man In Black:

— Got a fourth? Apparently so, after Mark Redman went from his Oklahoma home to throwing three innings of two-hit ball Saturday against Toronto at Happy Place USA. Redman’s a durable guy who’s made at least 29 starts every year since 2002, and has won 10-plus games four different times. He has postseason experience. He won 11 games for 62-win Kansas City last season.

Folks, the Braves could’ve done a heck of a lot worse than Redman. At absolute worst, this move costs them $1.25 million. It gives the Braves a veteran arm that is — here’s that word again — durable, something that Mike Hampton has struggled with, certainly. Granted, people would rather have Mike Hampton in their rotation than Mike Redman. But to bridge the gap, and potentially settle in as the fifth starter if/when Hampton gets back, a veteran lefty like Redman isn’t a bad fit at all.

— A fifth of what? Davies or Cormier?: At the start of spring, I really felt the fifth starter’s job was Kyle Davies’ to lose, and the kid from Stockbridge would have to struggle mightily to lose it. But after another strong performance today by Lance Cormier (five strikeouts, no runs in four innings against Toronto), I think there now is some pressure on Davies to step up.

The loss of confidence, combined with the groin injury, marred Davies’ 2006 season. But truth be told, he didn’t pitch that great in the second half of 2005. All things equal, I still think Davies is a better pitcher than Cormier, with better stuff and a higher upside. What I’m wondering right now is if Davies doesn’t pitch great, or if Cormier continues his excellent work, if Davies won’t start the season in Richmond. There, he can work to get into the rhythm of being successful every fifth day without the pressure of having to do it in the major league.

And oh, how people howled about the Johnny Estrada trade when it went down. But look at how valuable both Villarreal and Cormier are to this team.

— Last ones going north: If I had to pick right now, the final two spots in the bullpen would go to Chad Paronto and Tyler Yates. Paronto, I believe, has the sixth spot in the bullpen nailed down (behind the Big Three, Macay McBride and Villarreal), and Yates has great stuff and is out of options. I want to see what Blaine Boyer is going to do the next couple of weeks to try and get into that seventh and final bullpen spot. Like Yates, Boyer has super stuff and pitched so well in 2005.

As for the bench, I think you’ll see whoever isn’t starting in left between Ryan Langerhans and Matt Diaz be on the bench, unless the Braves swing a trade, most likely for Diaz. Brayan Pena, the backup catcher, has a spot. So too does Craig Wilson and Willy Aybar. That leaves one spot open and several quality guys competing for it. I’ll take Martin Prado for it right now, although the Canadian delegation will vote for Pete Orr. I think Chris Woodward’s injury is keeping him from getting in the mix; even so, I don’t see how he’s going to make the team right now unless he gets the fifth bench spot (which I just gave to Prado) or if Langerhans/Diaz gets traded.

That’s all I got, folks. Everybody enjoy the evening and the two-gamer with the World Series champs in Jupiter. The Scribe abides. Peace.

—30—

By mr baseball

March 10, 2007 10:46 PM | Link to this

N8: Can’t argue with your logic. I seriously doubt any team will ever again have 3 pitchers the quality of Maddux, Glavine & Smoltz, but they were together as a unit through 2002, with Millwood doing a pretty good job of replacing Smoltz in the rotation. Even after Glavine & Millwood bolted for big bucks in ‘03, the Braves still has the best trio of starters in the league (Maddux, Ortiz & Hampton were 51-26) and a closer with an ERA below 1.00 until the last week of the season.

Granted, the pitching hasn’t been nearly to that level the last 3 years, and probably never will be again. Can’t fault the GM for that. He actually did a really nice job filling in with Ortiz, Hampton & Thomson. You can fault him for leaving some holes in the lineup the last few years the Braves still had the best staff in the league, and for the inattention to the bullpen after that.

After the frequent barbs I’ve aimed at the GM, I will say this in his defense. He has done the right thing in not throwing money at all the free agents who have followed Glavine & Millwood out of town since ‘03. I hope the rest of you got a chuckle from Braveheart’s post conjecturing what the Braves lineup could be now. I’m guessing the starting lineup, 5 starters & Smoltz would cost somewhere in the $125 million range. You could knock off $10 million or so by replacing the always disgruntled Sheffield with Francouer, but that’s still a lot more $$$$$ than the Braves would even think about spending.

Is anyone going to follow up on the casual mention of the dearth of African American players on the Braves? That one may be a little too hot to touch, but you have to wonder how that situation has transpired given the demographics of Atlanta and the Braves history since moving South.

Greg in TN: Nice work in digging up the team salary figures. Given the rapid rise in the team’s total payroll after the ‘97 season, it makes the spin that Justice & Grissom had to be traded for financial reasons look bogus. All those complaining about how tough the Braves have it trying to exist on a $90 million payroll, ask the fans in Minnesota & Oakland for their thoughts on the matter.

By bobbymahlon

March 10, 2007 10:51 PM | Link to this

Hi Choppy : Right now Frenchy is batting .333 with two home runs, not bad eigh. Don’t worry about him as he will probably hit 280 with 30 homers and 90RBIs and play the best defense of any right fielder in the league. Remember how players were not running on that gun of his, the second half of the season.

By Greg in TN

March 10, 2007 11:08 PM | Link to this

Evening Mr. BB,

I have friends that are fans of Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Minnesota and Kansas City. I can assure you we don’t get any sympathy whatsoever with our ‘plight’.

By Jeremy

March 10, 2007 11:29 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB, I’m thinking about heading up to the Braves-Cards game Monday in Jupiter. Do you have any idea if the big guys (Jones boys, Frenchy, McCann) will be making the 2-day trip to Jupiter?

By Braveheart

March 11, 2007 12:02 AM | Link to this

Sheffield - I am glad he is gone. Wish he was never here, to be honest. With the current economics of the game and this team, that lineup with those starters that I posted above, is unrealistic. If they would do more in maximizing the potential of the market, some of those players still being here should have been realistic. BTW, I would have never paid Furcal $13 freaking million dollars either - that is absurd for how productive he is.

And, yes, the racial issue is way too hot button for me touch beyond just a mere casual observation. To me, it does not matter - just get the best players you can whomever they are. But for an organization that keeps preaching sound business policy, ignoring a huge potential fan base is just completely puzzling. Think back to the 90s, you had Justice, Deion, Gant, McGriff, Grissom, Nixon, Pendleton, Tucker, Lonnie Smith, Brian Hunter, Marvin Freeman, Dye, Lofton, Randall Simon, Gerald Williams all playing important parts of that success. To really have none now is way too complex of an issue to adequately discuss in a blog. It should not matter, but if you are a black person, who are you going to identify with on this team? Can you really blame a black person for not caring? I can’t. Thus less tickets sold, less merchandise sold, less buzz, less juice in the stadium, less beer sold, less food sold, less people watching on television, less people listening on the radio, and thus less money available to sign the players you have, want, and need.

Thus, is having that lineup and starting five I posted above really so laughable. If you are so small minded, yes, it is. If you can see the potential of mazimizing this market, including all potential fan bases and media outlets, you would be laughing about why don’t we have maybe even more of a potent lineup than even the one I posted above.

By Braveheart

March 11, 2007 12:19 AM | Link to this

As for 1996, alot of people say that the Braves were better than the Yankees.

They lost the last four in a row in the 1996 world series, the first four in a string that would see the yankees win 14 world series games in a row.

I do not think the Braves were better than the Yankees that year.

In Game 3, Cone was better than Glavine.

In Game 5, the Braves lost 1-0 in a classic duel beteen Smoltz and Pettite.

In Game 6, Maddux got beat on a bases clearing triple by Girardi.

In the infamous game 4, all anyone remembers is Wohlers blowing the save in the eighth on a freaking slider to Leyritz.

They forget that the game was merely tied at that point.

The game was lost later in the tenth.

In the decisive at bat, WADE BOGGS CAME OFF THE BENCH TO PINCH HIT and drew a walk to score Tim Raines for the winning run.

The Braves bullpen was so weak that they needed to throw Avery out there in the tenth.

Coming off the bench in that Game 4 for the Yankees was Wade Boggs, Jim Leyritz, Paul Oneill, and Tino Martinez.

Coming off the Braves bench in that game 4 was Klesko, Belliard, Polonia, Pendleton.

Look at the starters in the game 4: Lopez over Girardi; McGriff even with Cecil Fielder; Mariano Duncan over Lemke; Jeter over Blauser; Chipper over Charlie Hayes; Tim Raines over 19 year old Andruw; Grissom even with Bernie Williams; Strawberry over Jermaine Dye.

Probably the best closer of all time, Mariano Rivera, was just a mere set up man in 1996 for the World Series MVP Wetteland.

You can debate it all you want but, for me, the Yankees were clearly better.

The top 4 starters for the Braves: Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, and Neagle were better than Cone, Key, Pettite, and Kenny Rogers, but not so much better that the Braves weaker lineup, bench, and bullpen would not eliminate the advantage provided by the legendary starting pitchers.

Therein lies the biggest problem with the Braves for alot of that magic run. There was always a weakness somewhere within that team. The 4th or 5th starter, the bullpen, the bench, portions of the starting lineup. Cox did all he could to maximize things. But there were weaknesses. That is where people can criticize John S.

When you analyze why they always came up short, you have to ask

1. Did John S. provide Bobby all of the players he needed from that first guy to the 25th guy?

2. If John S. did provide all of the players Bobby needed, then why didn’t Bobby max out completely the potential of all the players on the complete roster John S. provided?

3. If the roster was not complete, was it the fault of John S. or the cheapskate owners?

Since 2000 and, especially since 2003, the answer is clearly that the ownership group is the biggest problem.

I would say though that during the 1990s, Bobby for the most part did his job.

John S. though failed almost every year to provide all of the players Bobby needed to have a complete roster during the 1990s.

As I made clear above, I believe John S. is the best GM in baseball, but for whatever reason, he had some shortcomings that were fatal for this team in the 1990s and I guess even today.

By ElbravoX

March 11, 2007 1:40 AM | Link to this

Just let it go guys, you are giving me ulcers.

By James

March 11, 2007 9:34 AM | Link to this

I think Terry Pendelton put it best concerning all our young infielders: “the double-play combination that you see when the season opens might not be the same combination that you see at the all-star break. What are your thoughts DOB?

By Gil in Mechanicsville

March 11, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

James… That statement tells me everybody better bring their “A” game everyday. One thing the Braves have not done for the past 15 or so years is stand pat. There has always been some new faces in the line up somewhere.

As for the debate on the best teams…

You cannot change the past… move on.. You want real frustration become a Cubs fan!!!!!

By Lew

March 11, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Well, have we decided yet whether or not Schuerholz is worthy? Redman’s performance yesterday gives rise to a modicum of hope. We might just have a decent rotation after all. To answer Metro Dude from yesterday, yes we’re still confident that we have a rotation, which is more than can be said of the Mets. Now tickets. I managed to get tickets for the Saturday Braves game at Fenway. The next time someone complains about ticket prices at Turner Field, keep in mind that the best price I could find for Loge boxes at Fenway was $155 per ticket. Those were the best seats I could get for the cheapest price. Even bleacher seats were going for $80 and more. Count your blessings for Turner’s ticket prices. It’s a good thing I don’t drink beer. I’d rival the National Debt for a weekend series.

By Carolina Lady

March 11, 2007 11:29 AM | Link to this

Wow. All this time I thought baseball fans came to the game to watch a TEAM of players. Had no idea that there had to be a certain ratio of colors on the field. Imagine that. Hmm.

By MBATL

March 11, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

Amen and pass the peas, CL.

Braves pitching looks great so far - we should keep in mind a lot of it is against less-than-stellar competition, but still a 3.35 era and, most encouraging, 71 strikeouts against 27 walks. And we’re keeping the ball in the ballpark, so far!

Boyer has just 1 inning of work; wonder if he’s hurting, or maybe just not really in the mix at this point?

Hope Davies can step it up today and keep the competition for #5 going.

By Spiderhoff

March 11, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

The Homeboy upstairs appreciates your support.

By David O'Brien

March 11, 2007 1:30 PM | Link to this

Jeremy, everybody made the trip to Jupiter except Woodward (calf) and Aybar (hand). McCann, Kelly J. and Thorman ARE NOT in lineup today, so you can be assured they will be tomorrow. Otherwise, can’t tell you who’ll play. I imagine most name guys will, for at least a couple at-bats tomorrow.

Oh, and NEW BLOG IS UP

By Robert

March 11, 2007 2:23 PM | Link to this

Folks, maybe one team every ten years has a really comPLETE roster. Year after year, some team wins the WS, usually without a “complete” roster.

Arguing that the flaw with the Braves of the mid 90’s was the roster is like complaining that the reason you didnt win the poker tournament was because sometimes you were only dealt pocket jacks instead of pocket aces

96 Yankees vs 96 Braves

C - Girardi vs Lopez

1b - TMartinez vs McGriff

2b - Mariano Duncan vs Lemke

3b - Boggs vs Chipper (38 vs 24)

SS - Jeter vs Blauser

LF G Williams vs Klesko

CF Bernie vs Grissom

RF ONeill vs Dye

give 4 to us (C,1b,3b, LF)and four to them. I am taking starting positions from baseball-reference.com, by the way

starters is not even CLOSE - huge edge to Braves

the Yankees had some bug names on the bench, but not one of em hit .290 - small edge to the Yankees

relievers - two guys with eras under three, vs five guys with eras under 3.25 - The BRAVES had the better bullpen

The difference was that one guy knew how to make something out of the pieces, while another guy knew how to pick his nose a lot and how to give his players baseball sounding nicknames