Braves

By N8

January 12, 2007 05:40 PM | Link to this

“…and Barry in his recliner occupying one side of the clubhouse. OK, nothing’s perfect.”

That’s pretty funny DOB. The only way it would’ve been funnier, is if you had said: “Barry in his recliner occypying one side of the outfield.”

I’m always reminded of two of my favorite baseball play by play (highlight) quotes with Barry Bonds.

1) This play happened a few years back (I don’t remember the batter), but it was a LINE DRIVE over Barry’s head. He DIDN’T MOVE A MUSCLE! Just slowly turned and looked over his should to see the ball hitting of the wall. Aparently he though it was going “out”.

Keith Olberman proceeded to say during the “highlights” on ESPN.

“Oh look. They resurected a statue of Barry Bonds in LF.”

THAT’S FUNNY

2) When ever Jim Rome is commenting on Barry’s throw to the plate in 1992 to get Sid Bream, he refers to it as the “sixteen hopper” to the plate.

Not sure that is as funny as the HR that wasn’t, but funny none the less.

By woogidy

January 12, 2007 05:41 PM | Link to this

me first, wonderful job.

By Stinky

January 12, 2007 05:41 PM | Link to this

Wow.

By John Adcox

January 12, 2007 05:44 PM | Link to this

Jeez, why do I have this sudden urge for a serious road trip? This one is gonna be hard to explain to the wife. And welcome back, Trey Hodges!

By N8

January 12, 2007 05:47 PM | Link to this

BTW: DOB, you’re giving the METRODOME waaaaaaay too much credit not being at the bottom of this list. But since I haven’t been to RFK or Tropicana (or Dolphins stadium for that matter) and YOU WORKED IN MIAMI for a long time, I’ll take you’re word for it.

But there is nothing more annoying that a BEAUTIFUL 80 degrees afternoon without a cloud in the sky and very little humidity to speak of day, and having to spend that day watching the greatest game on earth IN A FRICKIN DOME. Now in March/April the snow may be a problem. But I’ll assume that’s where the retractable roof comes in handy for the Brewers.

The ONLY nice thing about games in Minnesota is the fact that (I’ll assume it’s the same way in Washington, Miami and Tampa), you have about a 1 in 5000 chance of catching EVERY foul ball and home run. (if you are willing to leave your seat and run up to the upper deck or outfield seats. LOL!)

By woogidy

January 12, 2007 05:57 PM | Link to this

I’ve been to Turner Field, Wrigley, Tropicana, U.S. Cellular, and Miller Park. Miller park is my personal favorite honestly. I went to the ‘03 “Maddux vs. Prior” playoff game at Wrigley, and sat in the Bleachers, decked out in Braves gear. I would have to say that was an unbelievable experience. Best game I ever went to.

By N8

January 12, 2007 05:57 PM | Link to this

John Adcox

“And welcome back, Trey Hodges!”

I’ll assumed we signed Trey Hodges to a minor league contract with an invitation to spring training?

YIPPY!

By Mike

January 12, 2007 06:09 PM | Link to this

Of the parks I’ve been to: 1. Fenway - You feel like your in the 1920’s when you enter…there’s nothing like it…although I’ve never been to Wrigley. Plus I love Papa Gino’s pizza.

1. Turner Field - I was there before the High Def screen but a great park to see.

2. Citizen’s Bank Park - Love how the vistiting clubs bullpen is fan accessible, plus you can’t be a philly cheese steak…althought they got rid of Geno’s in the park.

3. Yankee Stadium - Went to my first game here…walking to the stadium in the Bronx and entering the stadium makes you wonder how green grass could be within a 50 miles of that place.

4. Shea Stadium - What a dump….

By SeattleBrave'sFan

January 12, 2007 06:20 PM | Link to this

DOB, Being in Seattle, I have to say Safeco is a great place for a game, you nailed it on the head with your description. I am a little worried though about your Turner Field description as my brother and I are planning a trip in September. We haven’t been there since we were kids growing up in Atlanta when Murph and Claudell were patrolling the outfield of good old Fulton County Stadium. Any tips for those “visitors” to come to town and enjoy some games and the city? Thanks as always…

By Lew

January 12, 2007 06:23 PM | Link to this

I was at the Grand Opening of Tropicana Field, which was then called Thunder Dome. Great place for Arena Football, though. I’ve been to Turner, Fenway and Olympic Stadium in Montreal. Fenway has atmosphere, but it is still damn uncomfortable and outrageously expensive, but if they were to build a new stadium like they’ve managed the Big Dig, it would take 75 years to build a new one. I plan to go to Kaufman Field this summer. Of all of them, I like Connie Mack Stadium the best. Oh, to be 13 again for a Saturday double header, with Richie Allen at third and Johnny Callison in right, in front of that stainless steel wall and Chris Short or Jim Bunning or Art Mahaffey pitching.

By Rob

January 12, 2007 06:32 PM | Link to this

I’d place Turner a little higher, at least ahead of the Ballpark at Arlington. The Ted is pretty good given that its a remodel from the Olympic Stadium …but the location is bad and there is no MARTA nearby. Too bad they didn’t build it around Centennial Park (which of course didn’t exist when they built the stadium). The downtown view is outstanding from the 1st base side upperdeck, but I agree that it would be better if the 755 Club was in right, and there were just low rise stands/bleachers in left. I’m sure that’s an Olympic compromise. Oh well. And you’re right-on about concession costs and the miscellaneous “side shows”, etc. going on. At least the non-stop noise at the Ted is less annoying (and not as loud) than at Falcon games. At least we don’t have to watch baseball at a place like the Trop in St Pete.

By David O'Brien

January 12, 2007 06:37 PM | Link to this

For charm, old Tiger Stadium ranked way up there, too. The right field upper deck hanging OVER the field, and from the first row of the press box you looked straight down on home plate. Very unusual, nothing like it today.

SeattleBravesFan, you’ll have a good time here, but just plan on driving a rental car to games or taking a cab. There’s tons to do here. If your kids are young, they’ll LOVE the aquarium, especially if the poor whale sharks aren’t all dead by then (not making light of it; that’s terrible that Ralph died, and makes you wonder about how well those huge fish are going to be able to exist in such an environment long term, but I speak with absolutely no knowledge on the subject, so I’ll shut up).

Hey, I even took my parents to the aquarium and everyone loved it.

By Chris

January 12, 2007 06:37 PM | Link to this

Tropicana Field should have been number 30. That staduim is horrible, I have never seen a dump look like that. It feels so clamy and dull. Ill never go back.

By TennesseePaul

January 12, 2007 06:40 PM | Link to this

Nice DOB. Thanks for the new Blog.

Stadiums I’ve visited and how they rank..

By Marty

January 12, 2007 06:43 PM | Link to this

I feel a flame war coming on after this, but I think you (and many people) give Wrigley Field too much credit. I’ve been there a handful of times, and although there’s obviously a lot of history there, I personally think the place is a dump.

By SeattleBrave'sFan

January 12, 2007 06:45 PM | Link to this

DOB..Thanks for the info. Is it reasonable to stay in Buckhead and take cabs to the games? Based on what I know of the stadium, I’m sure we will have enough to do. Our boys are all still too young, so this is a brother’s nastalgia trip of sorts.

By GT fans make me laugh

January 12, 2007 06:53 PM | Link to this

Petco Park should be higher on the list. The Stadium is beautiful. The area around the stadium is nice as well. The Gas Lamp District is very nice plus the skyline of San Diego is not that bad. The way they involved the building out in left field is a pretty good concept. Not to mention it was the 1st week in July while I was there and it was actually a bit cool out that night. Wrigily Field would be second on my list. Just a cool park to see. A lot of history in the stadium or atleast it has that feel to it. The worst stadium is the one in Phoenix. Not at all impressive. I mean I guess it is all you can do to a baseball stadium in the middle of a dessert. Turner field is not F******* Stadium. Nothing like sitting in the upper deck watching the Braves get hammered along with the fans in the stand. If you were lucky you got to see chief nocka homma. And he was always hammered. What a great place that was.

By Bob G

January 12, 2007 06:53 PM | Link to this

John Schuerholz has given me one of my most memorable hot stove offseasons in years!!! If I get any more excited, I’d think I was dating Erin Andrews. Think about it… how much more exciting can it be when your genius GM gives you Willie Harris????!!! I just know Willie Harris is going to steal 50 bases and hit .310. Then to have my buddy KC predict “Cy” Hampton is a lock to win 20 games! The previous blogs have me thinking “Northwoods League” Kelly Johnson is the reincarnation of Jackie Robinson. And if that isn’t enough, the staff at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Mn. has assured me there will be no ill effects for “post-Guerrero Concussion Syndrome” Soriano. “Father Time” Bob Wickman never met a Country Buffet Restaurant he didn’t like. Took Bob to to a Chinese Buffet last week for lunch… got into an argument with the owner… he say “I have to charge you double, Big Bob eat for two!” Thanks Time Warner… and thanks John… for making this offseason as exciting as I can ever remember as a Braves fan.

By TennesseePaul

January 12, 2007 07:00 PM | Link to this

Bummer. Just saw I mispelled Fenway. And all the other mispellings. It’s hard to blog with the boss hanging over the shoulder. The idea was there anyway.

Going to the Home Opener in April at Turner field. SeattleBravesFan, the park is great. You’ll enjoy it. There is a lot to do and the Hall of Fame is cool. The food is pricey, but it’s the Braves so it’s got that going for it. The lack of the Marta stop is a little disappointing, much the same for the two LA stadiums. Angles don’t even have a subway in the county. But the Dodgers have a Blue Line, Red Line, Gold Line and every other line that go everywhere but to the stadium and/or airport.

By TennesseePaul

January 12, 2007 07:04 PM | Link to this

Good observasions Bob G. We all know the real victory in baseball is which team makes the most offseason moves.

By Voice of Reason

January 12, 2007 07:05 PM | Link to this

Visiting hours ended at 7:00, Bob G, you’ve got to go back to your room now…

By Voice of Reason

January 12, 2007 07:16 PM | Link to this

OK, I’ll rank the current Major League ballparks that I have been in:

1. Turner Field

Man, I’ve gotta get out more…

By rochie

January 12, 2007 07:19 PM | Link to this

SOOO WHEN ARE WE FINALLY GONNA TRADE LAROCHE??? DONT WE NEED MORE PITCHING!!

By ROCHIE

January 12, 2007 07:20 PM | Link to this

WE HAVE MADE 1 SINGLE TRADE AND WERE JUST GONNA BE HAPPY?

By Rosalynn

January 12, 2007 07:26 PM | Link to this

I ate some groupa for lunch and I am not feeling well this evening. I will make my list of stadia and get back to you lata in the evening. By the way, I nevah liked the smell at Atlanta Fulton Counta Stadium. What was that horrible smell?

By brian

January 12, 2007 07:29 PM | Link to this

Seattle Braves Fan……Buckhead ain’t the Buckhead of old. Unless you enjoy the “thrill” of drive-by shootings, I would not encourage staying in Buckhead. Stay in the Atlantic Station area of downtown (which is also very close to the Ted) or Virginia Highlands.

By Daybed Wagmoe

January 12, 2007 07:31 PM | Link to this

DOB, great points about The Ted. i love the place, but those are some strong disadvantages - especially expensive concessions, no good restaraunts nearby and no MARTA. i don’t so much mind the Cartoon Network thing, and the view of the atlanta skyline is a nice bonus for sitting in the cheap seats. i enjoy the in-game entertainment, but was very disappointed this past season with the departure of the beloved Bravo Club.

the only other ballpark i’ve been to is wrigley field. it’s in a great part of town and the atmosphere is awesome, but something very distracting for me is the concourse (or whatever you call the walkway “underneath” the higher seats). it’s too narrow and low, and it’s also annoying how there aren’t more entrance gates.

thanks for the write-up!

By Jared

January 12, 2007 07:31 PM | Link to this

The flurry of pointless signings continues. Bill Shanks says the Braves have signed Trey Hodges. Goody.

I’ve only been to Turner Field. But I really like Kauffman Stadium, at least those nice outfield fountains.

ROCHIE, I agree. Schuerholz did that whole “I’ve never been so determined about the pitching” thing at the beginning of the offseason. It really made me think the Braves were getting back to their roots and why they won all those consecutive division titles. One set-up man, even though Soriano is really good, is a let-down.

Schuerholz was ready to basically trade LaRoche for unproven prospect Hayden Penn, who has sucked it up in the majors. But he won’t trade him for lights-out relief pitcher Mike Gonzalez, when the bullpen needs another left-hander, and Gonzalez is the best one there. If the Braves have as much confidence as they say they do in Scott Thorman, I can see no reason why they haven’t done this seeing as how the Pirates want to desperately. So much for the pitching….

By LeTwan Anthony

January 12, 2007 07:33 PM | Link to this

LeTwan has been thinking about those little midget pecan pies that have been discussed today and LeTwan is of the opinion those do not count as real pies. Little Debbie makes a mini pecan pie made with real pecans, eggs and margarine. Purists though do not consider this a pie. Mama would slap LeTwan if she caught LeTwan eating a little pie in a plastic wrapper.

By Rosalynn

January 12, 2007 07:37 PM | Link to this

SeattleBravesFan, please do not miss the Carter Centa when you come to town. But don’t walk! Let someboda drop you off at the doah. In fact, most of yoah touring in Atlanta should be done carefulla. I do hope this information will be useful to you.

By ROCHIE

January 12, 2007 07:39 PM | Link to this

GOING INTO THIS OFFSEASON ALL THE TALK WAS TO GO BACK TO PITCHING. ONCE THEY COMPLETED 1 PITCHER THEY SEEM CONTENT. WHAT IF HE GETS HURT.. WE NEED PICHING…TRADE LAROCHE. HE NOW CANT BE HAPPY TO STAY HERE AFTER ALL THOSE RUMORS…….TRADE FOR PITCHING………..

By ROCHIE

January 12, 2007 07:42 PM | Link to this

DONT BE FOOLED BY THE TALKS. WE LACK PITCHING. WE ARE THE SAME TEAM BUT 1 Y OLDER..WE NEED PITCHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

By ROCHIE

January 12, 2007 07:43 PM | Link to this

STADIUMS GREAT…WE NEED PITCHING

By ROCHIE

January 12, 2007 07:45 PM | Link to this

THE METS ONLY FOCUS ON HITTING THERFOR WE NEED PITCHING ASAP

By The Grinch

January 12, 2007 07:48 PM | Link to this

Y’all, the Braves shuttle bus from Lindburgh station to underground takes about 5 minutes; I don’t see what all the huge “Lack of Marta” stuff is about. So you’ve got to walk through a place full of hats and t-shirts. Unless you’re in a wheechair or toting around an oxygen tank, it’ll do you some good (plus the kids can see another of Atlanta’s attractions). I do like Turner, but the Video screen is one of those things that’s so cool you find yourself watching the game on it instead of the field in front of you. And the concession prices are fine for New York, but Atlanta? Yowch. Seattle, make sure if you’re bringing kids to bring an ATM card. However, there is a lot of kid oriented stuff around for them to mess with and a pretty cool Braves hall of fame. It’s a nice park, but then every other park I’ve been to was a cesspool (Yankee, Shea (especially), Astrodome, Dolphins stadium, and the old launching pad (though I’ve had some mighty good times there). I would think if any grass grew around Shea it would be very, VERY green, if you get my drift. I haven’t even been to NY since I was 13, and I remember it that way.

By Kieran, Long Island Brave Fan

January 12, 2007 07:51 PM | Link to this

1. Shea Stadium, New York: Construction of the Mets’ new ballpark is underway in the parking lot of decrepit Shea. The new place can’t open soon enough; by the way, wonder if they’ll keep that lovely row of auto chop shops … er, body shops, across the street? Niiice.

HAHAHAHAHAHHA

What’s the matter? You dont like the more Scenic aspects of Flushing Meadows(They make it sound really pretty dont they. I’ve never sean a meadow filled with Garages, Chinese food places and Graphiti)

All kidding aside, I really love Shea Stadium, I haven’t been to many other ball parks, and its the park i grew up near so i guess I’m biased, but I try to go see the Braves there at least once a year and its a fun atomosphere and there really are no bad seats in the joint. Yankee Stadium holds great history, but there are many places u can sit where its almost not worth it because of the terrible view. I guess in the larger picture Shea doesn’t stand out, and won’t be missed, but I will always remember it and love it.

If any of you have never been and have a chance to go before they stock it up with dynomite, I suggest you give it a try before it inevitably gets swallowed in the bad reivews that will undoubtedly bury it after it’s gone.

By ROCHIE

January 12, 2007 07:51 PM | Link to this

BUCKHEAD IS SAFE….BUT WE NEED TO TRADE FOR PITCHING

By N8

January 12, 2007 07:53 PM | Link to this

The only parks I’ve been to:

Old County stadium (I think that’s what it was called) in Minnesota before they moved into the Metrodome. I was VERY young, and don’t actually remember much at all about it.

The Kingdome in Seattle.

The Metrodome in Minnesota.

Mile High Stadium in Denver.

Coors Field in Denver.

And I’ve seen probably 30 games or so of the Colorado Springs Sky Sox (Rockies AAA team). Father in Law has season tickets.

btw: Voice of Reason

“OK, I’ll rank the current Major League ballparks that I have been in:”

“Turner Field Man, I’ve gotta get out more…”

Priceless MAN! Loved it.

By ROCHIE

January 12, 2007 07:58 PM | Link to this

WE MUST TRADE FOR PITCHING.

By mike

January 12, 2007 07:59 PM | Link to this

i agree roche we need to fix our pitching. we have not done enough this offseason, but i believe more will happen.

By ROCHIE

January 12, 2007 08:01 PM | Link to this

ITS MID JANUARY AND WE STILL NEED PITCHING…COME ON GUYS!!!!!!!!!!! J.S. WAKE UP AND MAKE SOMETHING HAPPEN

By ROCHIE

January 12, 2007 08:01 PM | Link to this

WE NEED PITCHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By BadgerDawg

January 12, 2007 08:03 PM | Link to this

Do not insult Wrigley!!!!!!!

Wrigley is absolutely incredible. It’s in a great area in the best city there is. It’s super old, so it obviously doesn’t have alot of the bells and whistles, but I would rather go there than anywhere else.

As for the others, I’d put Fenway 2nd for a lot of the same reasons as Wrigley, but it’s just not as good. I’ve been to Miller Park and Turner Fierld multiple times, but I think MP is somewhat stale and its by itself surrounded by nothing(think Turner Field except TF is in a worse area) so I’d go with TF for 3rd. For two years I’ve been meaning to go to PNC, on TV it looks like it may be the best. DOB, how can you knock Milwaukee’s downtown given the city you live in? Downtown ATL is an absolute dump. Milwaukee is much nicer intown.

To Seattle fan, if you are coming to ATL for any reason other than seeing Braves games, don’t come! You are not missing anything unless that new aquarium is nice, which I’ve heard it is. I’ve never been to Seattle, but I’ve heard its great and you’d be kicking yourself for wasting time in ATL.

By Jared

January 12, 2007 08:05 PM | Link to this

Please Mike. Schuerholz is done, at least until spring training.

By BadgerDawg

January 12, 2007 08:08 PM | Link to this

Best stadium not listed bc its not the topic: for of you in the ATL go up to Chattanooga. Bell South Park is very nice and very cheap. It’s in a revitalized area right next to the aquarium and the children’s museum. I’d never waste time and money taking my kids to a Braves game unless it was against the Brewers, but once a year we’d go up there and spend the deay at the aquarium or the museum and then go the game after dinner. Sit on the 1st base side and watch the sunset over the mountains.

By Jman

January 12, 2007 08:22 PM | Link to this

As a native Chattanoogan I must agree with BadgerDawg. Talk about nice hotels near a stadium. The Sheraton, Hilton, and Clarion could all be hit with a foul ball they are so close to Bellsouth Park. Not to mention all the fun attractions nearby. The riverfront, the acquarium, every type of restaurant you could imagine. The parking is not bad at all. Great minor league stadium!

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 12, 2007 08:26 PM | Link to this

DOB, your comments about Shea Stadium and Dolphin Stadium were priceless. I was laughing hysterically about the “dancers”. I remember I went to a few games in Oklahoma City (the Rangers AAA team) and they had this group called the “Zales Diamond Girls”. Well, they may have been the Zales Diamond Girls on game nights but they were the showtime at “Cover Girls” on their off nights. You could tell that their dance moves were always a little off step with a pole on the field.

By Robert

January 12, 2007 08:33 PM | Link to this

Havent been in a whole lot of stadiums, but here’s my take

1.Fenway - Maybe not the greatest stadium to play ball in, and not the best to make the team money due to its small size, but the link to baseball’s past (which becomes more precious as ever fewer such links survive) makes watching a game there an experience unlikely to be matched anywhere else except Wrigley (where I personally have not been)

2.Coors Field - Even tho they played beer league softball there for over a decade, the view of the mountains from the first base side makes it a real treat. Pretty good food too

3.McArthur Stadium - The old name for the home of the AAA Syracuse Chiefs - lord knows what it’s called now and I think it’s been replaced quite some time ago. Has a special place in my heart as it’s where I first saw a pro game as a nine year old in 1975. Some kid named Guidry pitched for the Chiefs

4.Joker Marchant Stadium - Again not so much as a stadium, but it’s where I saw my first spring training game. So close to the action, and to the players - of course this was like 1988 - Those days are gone forever - these days even most of the ST sites have a plastic corporate feel to them

5.Fulton County Stadium - more memories - was there for Game 3 in the 1991 WS

6.Memorial Stadium - Baltimore - Caught a John Lowenstein batting practive home run (and almost lost it tossing it onto the roof of a concession stand - long beer-tinged story)

7.Jack Murphy Stadium - My first taste of West Coast baseball. Was there in April 03, while the new downtown stadium was still under construction. The trolley ride out to the stadium was a part of the experience

8.Tropicana Field - It’s a sterile dome, and the only thing worse than the team is the food, but hey, you walk in and feel like the stadium is all yours

9.Skydome - Mightve ranked higher on the list had I been there on the day of the famous outfield love scene, but alas

10.Turner Field - The epitome of corporate and plastic. The 1/2 inch thick layer of sprayed on glitz dulls quickly once you sit down in the seat that sems designed for a sardine and start munching your $38 popcorn and sipping your $17 beer. Actually, Turner Field wouldnt be any worse than any of the other soulless modern age parks if Bobby Cox werent there ever time I attend a game

By Robert

January 12, 2007 08:36 PM | Link to this

I wouldnt be so harsh on the idea of dancing girls

All those times Reitsma took the mound last season wouldve been easier to take if they came with a free lap dance

By Bravo

January 12, 2007 08:41 PM | Link to this

Turner Field should def. be in the top 10. 16 is very high. They have a superb HD-TV, awesome hot-dogs, great games, amazing seats, and a Southern environment. What else could you ask for?

By The Grinch

January 12, 2007 08:44 PM | Link to this

I’ve never been to the park at Chattanooga, but I concur the view on the riverfront is gorgeous. I also love the public transportation system; quiet, clean electric buses running every five minutes taking you anywhere you want to go for free. You can go from your hotel to a bar to the aquarium/Imax back to another bar to a restaurant to another bar and back to the hotel again without ever getting a DUI or getting mugged. Good stuff. And while the Georgia Aquarium is excellent, the Tennessee is different enough that a visit to one does not negate the other in any way.

Rochie, if you were GM of the Braves right now, what would be your main area of focus?

By chip

January 12, 2007 08:44 PM | Link to this

HOW can you put Wrigley and Fenway in your top ten? Have you been there to watch a game lately? Both venues are broken-down old dumps! yeah, yeah, there’s magic — but there’s also dirt, rats, and no parking. Both stadims should be razed.

My top five: ATT (San Fran), Safeco (Seattle), PNC (Pitt), Camden (Baltimore), and Chavez Ravine (LAD). Coors Field in Denver is also a beautiful park, but baseball at altitude keeps it from being in the top five.

One last thing: WAY too low on Turner Field. I come every year. Marta gets me there no trouble. I’d prefer restaurants and hotels close by, but the stadium itself is a great ball park.

By Ken Stallings

January 12, 2007 08:51 PM | Link to this

Well done!

You deserve designation as a columnist, and if you promise me you will always vote for Dale Murphy, restoration of your hall of fame vote!

By The Grinch

January 12, 2007 08:52 PM | Link to this

Robert, I agree about the seats and the concession prices. If you’re bigger than a 130-pound girl you’ll have to get yourself in and out with a shoe-horn. And like I told KC, it wouldn’t even be fair for him to have to buy me my game-long beer requirement if he loses the bet we’ve got going; at 7 bucks a pop for a plain old sudsweiser you’re looking at about 150 bucks (unless it goes into extra innings). That’s what I loved about FC stadium; they didn’t care if you brought in a fifth of Jack Black, a habachi, 8 punds of charcoal and some steaks as long as you just showed up. The new Video screen is tight, though. It even made Dan Kolb’s intro cool.

By journalist jimmy smith

January 12, 2007 08:57 PM | Link to this

grinch, what is the mortality rate at the chattanooga aquarium? how do the aquariums dispose of huge, dead fish? how many aquariums has grinch visited and who is grinch’s favorite fish?

By Robert

January 12, 2007 09:02 PM | Link to this

Grinch, I’d be okay except that they took my shoehorn at the gate and made me buy a Braves logo shoehorn for $57

By David O'Brien

January 12, 2007 09:05 PM | Link to this

BadgerDawg, I don’t quite get the logic _ because I live in Atlanta, a place with a pretty bad downtown, I can’t knock Milwaukee’s sleepy downtown? I don’t LIVE in downtown Atlanta, so I very rarely go there anymore. When I used to stay downtown while covering the Marlins, I didn’t think highly of Atlanta because of the unimpressive downtown. But when I moved here and saw that the neighborhoods were beautiful, tree-lined and hilly, I thought differently of the whole city.

I’m sure Milwaukee neighborhoods are quite nice, too. But I don’t stay in the Milwaukee neighborhoods. I stay downtown, next to that awful mall. That said, Milwaukee’s downtown is probably better, though smaller, than Atlanta’s. But we now have Atlantic Station and Midtown very close by, and downtown itself is much, much better than when I used to visit here now with so much more going on and more and more people moving downtown into the renovated warehouses and office buildings turned into lofts, etc.

By Wayne in UT

January 12, 2007 09:07 PM | Link to this

Rochie Do you think we need some more pitching?

By David O'Brien

January 12, 2007 09:11 PM | Link to this

ROCHIE, MAN OF UPPERCASE LETTERS, apparently you didn’t notice the Braves signed Trey Hodges to a minor league contract. Hence, no need for more pitching.

But before that big move, ROCHIE, would you agree pitching was what the Braves still needed more of?

By Aurthur Blank save the Braves!!

January 12, 2007 09:11 PM | Link to this

Cheerleaders and Baseball just dosent go together. Of course theres no nice places to eat or stay around turner field….it is SOUTH ATLANTA afterall!! If anything thou its gotten more decent since they shut down alot of the projects in the area. Dont get 2 comfortable or careless thou.

By Tyrone Jenkins

January 12, 2007 09:12 PM | Link to this

who cares

By Rosalynn

January 12, 2007 09:15 PM | Link to this

Oh, my! Everaboda around here is quitting theah jobs. I had to cook Jimma’s dinna tonight and turn down the covas for his nap. Jimma is just a grinnin’ like a fool and acting like nothing is going on. I haven’t had a moment to work on my list of stadia. Maybe I can get around to that tomorra if I don’t have to drive Jimma to town. I don’t know if the chauffeur quit today or not. This book has been ratha controvehsial kinda like the blog sometimes when those boys get to talkin’ ugla like they do. DOB, is a saint for puttin’ up with all that and he is certainla deserving of a wurlitza this yeah. I must go check on Jimma in the kitchen. He is smapping some buttabeans for dinner tomorra. Goodnight all.

By Wayne in UT

January 12, 2007 09:16 PM | Link to this

DOB Only been to 10 parks in my life, 3 of which are no longer used or around.

My list according to my experience: 1. ATT Park in SF (for all the reasons you state) 2. Coors Field (got food poisoning with a bratz there once!) 3. Safeco Field (garlic fries are TOO strong here!) 4. Astrodome (ugly place, but when it is HOT outside, it is cool in there!) 5. Fulton Co Stadium (because I was impressionalble in the 60’s here) 6. Yankee Stadium (steeped in history) 7. Anaheim Stadium (it is always nice in So Calif.) 8. Oakland Stadium (because it was better than Candlestick) 9. Old Busch (was boring place) 10. Candlestick Park (I froze their in the dead of summer!)

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 12, 2007 09:16 PM | Link to this

My timing for making incredibly astute, witty statements on the blog sucks. I make a great comment, and DOB posts a new blog. Witness my “midget pie” comment - Oh, the timing!!

PNC Park - freakin awesome stadium - had a chance to take in a game there this summer - agree with DOB’s observations, plus I didn’t freeze my nads off in the middle of July like I did in Candlestick a couple of times in the past. Had a chance to go to a party there in October - group I was in town with rented the whole stadium - got tours (not of Barry’s corner, of course - only got to see the visitor’s locker room), run around on the field, take batting practice inside (only gave us 5 pitches though - hardly a chance to warm up, adjust to the pitches, etc). All in all, though, an incredible experience, and an incredible park.

Grinch: midget pies are not to be trifled with - two bites, and they are gone - but, one good bite deserves another, and after a while, taking the same old bite just gets, well, old.

By T

January 12, 2007 09:18 PM | Link to this

Roche: Forget JS & Pitching, we need the Zales Diamond Girls!!!!

I’ve been to more than a few stadiums and let me tell you. DOB has Wrigley way to high (along with everyone else). Outside the stadium is great, but inside the stadium sucks. Yankee Stadium is awesome. Must see a game there if in NY (i’m not a yankee or met fan). Fenway is great! Outside & inside. Small seats, but great. Tropicanna=horrible. White Sox park is above average too. Hall of Fame stadium (in cooperstown) is just barely worse than wrigley…ha.

By Wayne in UT

January 12, 2007 09:19 PM | Link to this

Folks, if we trade LaRoche, does that mean we can resign Brian Jordan to platoon with Thorman at 1st? I think this might be Brian’s breakout year!

By journalist jimmy smith

January 12, 2007 09:27 PM | Link to this

the blog is confusing tonight. was ralph shark victim to a drive-by shooting? and does midget pie require refrigeration?

By Rich

January 12, 2007 09:28 PM | Link to this

FENWAY PARK #1

YANKEE STADIUM #30

IT’S JUST BETTER IN BOSTON.

By The Grinch

January 12, 2007 09:30 PM | Link to this

Good one, Robert.

JJS, that’s a complicated question(s). Large Tennessee fish did not happen to die the times I visited, or if they did their disposal was handled with such expediency and minimal fuss that it went unnoticed by the crowd. The noise level from children is unbearable at the one in Chattanooga; Atlanta has much higher ceilings and noise-dampening wall material…of course, Tennessee has a more subterranean, spooky kind of feel to it (it isn’t very well-lit, which I kind of like). Outside of Florida, those are the only two tourist-sized aquariums I’ve been to. I assume you don’t wish me to cite the various aquariums I’ve visited in people’s houses, or owned myself. Fernbank has a small aquarium at the entrance to their I-max, but their fish seem somewhat morose. Almost like, “Don’t feel obligated to look at us, we know you’re here to see the movie.” I guess since we’re talking fish and not the myriad of other species found at either place, I’d have to say The Ga. Aquarium’s Grouper. I’ve had such a hard time in my youth reeling them in when they go down in the coral in Florida that it’s a shock to see them swim right up face to face with you and say howdy. Plus, they make a tasty sandwich. Now, if we expand it to include animated fish, I would say the fishes in “One Fish Two Fish” (which you alluded to earlier), followed by Klauss from “American Dad.” The fish in the Cat in the Hat is too responsible. I hope all that was helpful. :-)

By ernesto

January 12, 2007 09:31 PM | Link to this

Minute Maid park #5?????????????? With that goofy train carrying a boxcar full of pumpkins? With a hill in center field? WITH A FLAG POLE IN CENTER FIELD??????? Without a doubt the stupidest design more a ballpark of all time!!!!

By blyttle

January 12, 2007 09:32 PM | Link to this

Absolutely nothing compares to the great Fenway experience-not even close.Yes,Boston sports fans can be overbearing,but thay have a right to be!

By Reggie Sanders

January 12, 2007 09:37 PM | Link to this

Hey Mr. Schuerholz, give me a call. Last time you had me during an even year, and I always take a break during even numbered years. Now, with this being 07, I am due for a big season. Give me a call “homeboy” and we can march to the World Series now that you were able to pick up Trey Hodges! (you don’t need Brian Jordan with me around!!!)

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 12, 2007 09:40 PM | Link to this

JJS:

Word has it that Ralph the Shark was the victim of a “skate by” shooting. Seems that Sammy the Skate had it in for him. Also, news reports confirmed that Lonnie Smith was in town yesterday, brought the gun that he was going to shoot JS with years ago, and was seen lurking in the shadows with Sammy. Skates conspiring with the Skate? Coincidence? I think not!!

Midget pies are refrigerable, or not - just don’t put a midget pie in a giant refrigerator - it will get swallowed up, rest assured.

By Me

January 12, 2007 09:44 PM | Link to this

Note: Remember when you rate ballparks….the fans don’t care a whit about conditions in the press box.

By TennesseePaul

January 12, 2007 09:44 PM | Link to this

The Bob. Forgot about that park. Chase field now. That was a cool park. That would be right there between Arlington and Minute Maid in my ranking.

Going to all the parks was fun. It was the way I passed time in College Summers. Living here and family there opened itself to a lot of baseball. Still have a few more to go to though. I’ll get to them.

By Rosalynn

January 12, 2007 09:45 PM | Link to this

Grinch, I also like the groupa. When Jimma was a young submarina he claims to have seen Chala Tuna.

By Jared

January 12, 2007 09:47 PM | Link to this

“But before that big move, ROCHIE, would you agree pitching was what the Braves still needed more of?”

I know you’re joking on the Hodges thing O’Brien, so I’ll ignore that. If this is not sarcasm, yes pitching is the need. So where is it? A good set-up man is nice, but it’s only one set-up man.

The Braves could trade LaRoche for Gonzalez, the Pirates would do. That would improve the pitching. If they’d give LaRoche for a pitching prospect who has played like garbage in the majors, why not get a light-outs left-handed relief pitcher?

Improve the pitching. I don’t care if the offense takes a hit, improve the pitching. It’s how teams win. Not offense as seen with the 2003 Texas Rangers.

I wonder if Schuerholz is even trying to improve the pitching anymore. Maybe he is, I hate to knock him and then a day later something big happen. But I doubt it.

By The Grinch

January 12, 2007 09:51 PM | Link to this

Scalp ‘em, think about how I felt RESPONDING to your midget pie post, and being the last one before DOB saying “New Blog.” I think we should each receive a refund. Now, I’m no expert on midgets, but I do have a movie or two featuring Bridget the Midget. To my knowledge, she has never appeared in a pie but I’ve seen her in several sandwiches…(rim shot). Thank, you, thank you; I’ll be here all week.

By AVinnieD

January 12, 2007 09:52 PM | Link to this

Seattlefan, I would recommend getting a hotel around midtown and going to Jock and Jill’s before the game. They have a free bus that drops you off in front of the stadium and also picks you back up in front of the stadium. You can drink on the old rickety bus but you better not have a full drink because it has no shocks and you will spill your fair share. It is like 3-5 bucks to park at Jock and Jill’s but a little pre/post game bar action with curbside service is tough to beat IMO.

By aeg

January 12, 2007 09:57 PM | Link to this

My favorite park I’ve seen a game in is Camden Yards. The warehouse and brick pathway where they have markers of home runs hit there is pretty neat. I’ve taken tours of Fenway and Yankee since both teams were out of town when I was visiting… The only thing I don’t like about Turner is that parking is a pain because you always have to have one of those colored passes and it takes forever to get out games that take place on the weekends. If you take MARTA you have to ride the shuttle bus. Also, The selection of good places to eat or get a drink is non-existent. I love to watch a game there but the ushers are the worst I’ve ever experienced when it comes to letting you sit in better seats than your ticket says when there’s 100 people in the whole stadium and when it’s a 10-2 game against the Colorado Rockies in the 8th inning.

By Wayne in UT

January 12, 2007 09:58 PM | Link to this

Knowing Mr. Schuerholz, the next deal we see will probably be something totally out of left field, and totally unexpected. I think we should have an “out of left field” contest. The winner is given a lunch with JS or better yet, maybe with “the grinch” (couldn’t resist).

By Rich

January 12, 2007 09:58 PM | Link to this

RED SOX #1

I HATE THE YANKEES!!!

By Wayne in UT

January 12, 2007 10:01 PM | Link to this

Knowing Mr. Schuerholz, the next deal we see will probably be something totally out of left field, and totally unexpected. I think we should have an “out of left field” contest. The winner is given a lunch with JS or better yet, maybe with “the grinch” (couldn’t resist).

By journalist jimmy smith

January 12, 2007 10:02 PM | Link to this

those midget pecan pies remind this journalist of the hot dogs on the carousel in the convenience store. Who buys those hot dogs? How long does one stay on the carousel before it is sold? hint: beat writers are well known to frequent convenience stores late at night and beat writers carry their own cheese everywhere. could beat writers be the ones who buy these convenience store hot dogs?

By jed

January 12, 2007 10:03 PM | Link to this

If you go to PNC park in Pittsburgh, listen to me: get box seats on the third base line. The view of the skyline is unbelievable! Last year, I went to RFK for a couple of games. Dreadful.

By Wayne in UT

January 12, 2007 10:03 PM | Link to this

OOPS

By brian

January 12, 2007 10:07 PM | Link to this

The only way we will get quality young pitching is to trade Andruw Jones and as DOB has pointed out many times it would be a miracle if everything could come together for a trade to satisfy everyone. The only chance we have to get someone like Ervin Santana from the Angels or Brandon McCarthy from the Rangers is in a package for AJ.

Grinch heard any good music lately = My Country, Losing My Religion, STAND, END OF THE WORLD, Shiny Happy People, Fly Me Courageous, Smells Like Teen Spirit???

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 12, 2007 10:14 PM | Link to this

Grinch:

“Bridget the Midget Sandwiches????” You are DISGUSTING! LMAO

Now, the Sandwich King knows midget sandwiches - Pig in a Blanket, Finger Sandwiches, Krystals, etc…. and none of them have a Bridget.

Perhaps you were thinking of midget corndogs….Bridget on a Stick?

By Robert

January 12, 2007 10:20 PM | Link to this

“I think we should have an “out of left field” contest.”

Most of the stuff that comes out of Bobby Cox’s mouth is out of left field. He takes the cake on volume and magnitude

By The Grinch

January 12, 2007 10:25 PM | Link to this

Why yes. Yes I have Brian. I’ll be happy to share it with you.

Well I can stand beside

Ideals I think are right

And I can stand beside

The idea to stand and fight

And I do believe

There’s a dream for everyone

This is our country

There’s room enough here

For science to live

And there’s room enough here

For religion to forgive

And try to understand

All the people of this land

This is our country

From the east coast

To the west coast

Down the Dixie Highway

Back home

This is our country

That poverty could be

Just another ugly thing

And bigotry would be

Seen only as obscene

And the ones that run this land

Help the poor and common man

This is our country

The dream is still alive

Some day it will come true

And this country it belongs

To folks like me and you

So let the voice of freedom

Sing out through this land

This is our country

Who says I’m not a generous Grinch? Now, Wayne in Utah…if you win, you must assure me that people from Utah eat regular food just like everyone else. Mormons frighten me. I started to make a joke about mormon pie but, while funny, it was so horribly innaproprite I thought better of it at the last second. Can anyone tell I’m sober tonight?

By brian

January 12, 2007 10:26 PM | Link to this

Follow up -

DOB - nothing wrong with Straight to Hell or anything else Drivin’ and Cryin’ writes. I love their music and Straight to Hell was one of the first songs I learned on the guitar and when in college the more I had to drink the better it sounded. Never could get that Kevin Kinney nasal sounding smokers hoarse voice down though. If Grinch cut on me for liking Honeysuckle Blue for being overplayed, I just tried to say I did not go for the most obvious DNC song.

By the way, why is a song considered “bad” because it is overplayed? Now you can kill a song by overplaying it but it does not make it a bad song. Shiny Happy People was a bad annoying song no matter how many times it was played. Devil Went Down To Georgia is a classic song even if overplayed. Same with Walk the Line, Stairway To Heaven, Paradise City, Let it Be, Won’t Get Fooled Again, Pink Houses, etc.

As far as Devil Went Down to Georgia, DOB you would appreciate this, in college at a MNF party (I take the 5th on what year in college) the wildest and most out of control person I knew (he must have been a cat because he used up at least 5 of 9 lives in college) was also on scholarship for violin his first year. He was from jersey so not up on country music. Halftime blaring music, everyone feeling pretty good, heard Devil Went Down to Georgia - he listened to it once, said play it again, grabbed his violin and upon the replay he cranked that sucker out. Brought the house down. Overplayed song but brings down the house - whether Light Show or frat house.

By Miami Native

January 12, 2007 10:27 PM | Link to this

Dolphin Stadium is rated too high!! Yes, if there was a 31 for 30 stadiums, Dolphin (still called Joe Robbie by many) is a terrible place to watch the Marlins. Not only is the team generally pitiful (and only twice superb), but the summer rain and heat make it horrible to go to games. Worse—the stadium is in NW Miami-Dade County, at the end of earth and forever to get to. There is no Metrorail to the stadium, and traffic piles up at the exit whenever a major team comes to town (Yanks for example—and yes, most of the stadium roots for the opposing team). During the bad years, you could hear the fans from the field. Food options are limited and many times half the stadium’s outlets are closed! The Margirls are attractive but cheap and fake—just like the team, the stadium, and the city. No fan support, a lousy team, a horrible stadium. It’s easily the 31st or 32nd best MLB stadium in America. Hades would make for a better location.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 12, 2007 10:34 PM | Link to this

DOB:

Can we agree to ban Grinch from the blog if he posts the lyrics to “This is Our Country” one more time? While his movie scripts are top notch, and his Bridget post was a classic, I can’t take that song any more!!!

By StingerSplash

January 12, 2007 10:35 PM | Link to this

Saw a game at old Tiger Stadium once and fell in love with the place. You could almost feel Al Kaline lining another double down the line, or Jack Morris glowering in on somebody. Fenway always holds a special place in my heart. Old Milwaukee County Stadium was fun and honestly, even with the astroturf, I enjoyed my one trip to Three Rivers (though everything I read about the new park puts it and many others to shame). I have to admit - I wasn’t that impressed with Wrigley, and that was on a day when Ryne Sandberg came back to throw out the first pitch and Harry Sr. was back from a heart attack. New Comiskey - I’ve spent many a day in the hot Georgia sun, and that’s the only way I survived. Brutal. Also felt like was going through Beirut just to get there.

By bravehater

January 12, 2007 10:35 PM | Link to this

Great thread, I look forward to adding to my list:

Wrigley - epitome of a ballpark… worth the $25 parking

Fenway - dirty, cramped and full of character

Dodger - unrivaled on a summer evening

PacBell - garlic fries so addictive they must have been conceived in a BALCO lab

Minutemaid - a/c and closed roof is a godsend

Qualcomm - a laid back reflection of its locale

Turner - bland but HD screen is awesome

Angel - ridiculous thunder mountain ripoff in centerfield

Yankee - lots of history, very little charm

Arlington - reminded me of minor league ballpark

Kingdome - concrete monstrosity was like watching baseball in prison

By David O'Brien

January 12, 2007 10:37 PM | Link to this

Ernesto, who ranked Minute Maid Park No. 5? I had Petco Park in San Diego No. 5.

Blogger calling himself ME, I understand you don’t care about the pressbox conditions. But since I sit in the pressbox, it sometimes affects my rankings. Grin and bear it, if you can.

By David O'Brien

January 12, 2007 10:39 PM | Link to this

Yes, once more and Grinch is banned (but I’ll make sure to look and make sure it’s the real Grinch posting before resorting to such drastic measures. Grinch, you’ve been warned, compadre.

By Ron

January 12, 2007 10:41 PM | Link to this

I’ve been to The Ted, Wrigley, Fenway, Pac Bell, Skydome and the Astrodome. Wrigley gets my vote for #1, followed by Fenway. Real baseball in those parks, boy. You can smell the tradition. Wrigley in particular works because of its location. Imagine if The Ted were in the middle of Buckhead. You walk out of the park and straight into a pub where they’re still buzzing about the game. You walk out of The Ted and go straight to your car and sit in traffic. Ugh. Pac Bell gets high marks for being in the coolest city in America. The female announcer sounds silly, though. Skydome seemed futuristic at the time. You can see fans watching the game from the windows of their hotel rooms. And the Space Needle looks great from underneath. The Astrodome was just plain surreal. That’s the only way I can describe it. Great article, DOB. I envy you.

By David O'Brien

January 12, 2007 10:45 PM | Link to this

Miami native _ strong post, and I can’t disagree.

Robert, Joker Marchant is still there, still great, and a far, far better place to watch a game than at least the bottom seven stadiums on the 30-park list above.

Dodgertown, Clearwater (Phillies), Tigertown (Marchant Stadium), Brandenton (Pirates), Jupiter (Marlins and Cards) and yes, Dark Star (Braves) are all great stadiums, as are the Twins’ and Red Sox parks down in Fort Myers, though I haven’t been down there in several springs. Winter Haven (Indians) is a bit of a pain to get to, but it’s also got a bit of that old-school spring training charm.

By bonzo

January 12, 2007 10:45 PM | Link to this

Your assessment of PNC in Pittsburgh is right on. Beautiful view, backlit city at sunset, even with perpetually mediocre team, plus not that expensive.

Philly’s new park is embarrassing. It’s just poured concrete like the Vet stuck in south Philly. The view of downtown is remote. They were going to build downtown, but politicos from south Philly put in the fix and leaders in Chinatown balked. It has nothing special at all.

Camden Yards is still great…right in the Inner Harbor too..but I liked Memorial Stadium better. Less commercialism and more tradition.

Wrigley, Fenway…what can you say. Turner was stuck off the MARTA and to get there using public transit, you have to dipsy-doodle around.

Shea sucks. Toronto’s place is like going to a mall. So is baseball in Minneapolis. RFK is being neglected while the city builds a new place in Anacostia; you get off the Metro and follow a police escort line around the Armory into the front entrance. Like old Comiskey….

By Robert

January 12, 2007 10:46 PM | Link to this

I’m an American boys Come a long way. I was born and bred in the USA. So listen up close I got somethin to say. Boys I’m buyin this round

Well it took a little while but we’re in this fight. Aint goin home til we done whats right. Gonna drink Camden Town dry tonight if I have to spend my last pound

My granddaddy sang me this song. Told me bout London when the blitz was on. How he married grandma and brought her back home a hero throughout his land. Well Im standin on a runway in San Diego Couple Purple Hearts and I move a little slow. Nobody here, maybe nobody knows bout a place called Viet Nam

By David O'Brien

January 12, 2007 10:49 PM | Link to this

Ron, very good descriptions, and I like the comparison of leaving Wrigley Field and leaving Turner Field. Well put.

That’s not the Space Needle in Toronto, though (that’s in Seattle). It’s the CN Tower, or something like that (named for a bank). But it is pretty amazing, isn’t it? It’s much taller, by the way, than the Space Needle.

By David O'Brien

January 12, 2007 10:51 PM | Link to this

Bravehater, that is so true about Dodger Stadium _ unrivaled on a cool summer night. Even better than San Diego, because of the view, the mountains in the distance, then the view of the city when you’re leaving. That place gives me a charge every time I got there. What a naturally beautiful location Chavez Ravine is.

By Jimmy H.

January 12, 2007 10:52 PM | Link to this

David..you’ve succeeded in doing what I am still trying to do in seeing games in every major league park. I enjoyed reading your ballpark rankings. I’ve made it to about a third of them and have the following comments -

1). The Metrodome would be at the bottom of my list but the Minneapolis area is rather beautiful.

2). I would rank Kaufman Stadium a little higher on my list due to it having more of a family atmosphere.

3). I picked the wrong time during 2006 to see the new Busch Stadium - July 18th of last year when St. Louis was in the middle of a brutal steam bath with temps over 100 and humidity around 85%. I was also in St. Louis on the 19th when that wild storm blew the windows out of the press box and tore up a lot of other stuff there. If I had been at the game on the 19th with the same seats I had on the 18th (1st row below the press box) I would probably have had some of the glass on my head.

4). I found Miller Park to be rather unique.

5). I would rank Dodger Stadium near the top of my list. Beautiful ballpark with the hills behind it but hated driving in LA.

The other stadiums I’ve made it to are Riverfront, Coamerica Park, the Astrodome, the Ballpark in Arlington (hate that name!) the old Arlington Stadium, US Cellular Field (in a really rough neighborhood), Fulton County Stadium, and Turner Field (I still think it should have been named after Hank Aaron!). I’ve been a Braves fan first and foremost since 1967 and have seen a lot of bad baseball during the years prior to 1991 and have also seen quite a few games at Fulton County and Turner Field since the 14 year run started. Hope the Braves get things straightened out this year and get back on top.

By Ace

January 12, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this

DOB - I wonder how many of the newer minor league stadiums you’ve been to and what you think of them. We’ve got a new one here in Greenville (SC) modeled on Fenway that is a real charmer. It’s small and its A ball, but a sweet stadium right in the middle of a great downtown revitalization. Would be a great way to spend a Saturday but, then again, the last thing you probably want to do on a Saturday off during baseball season is go to a baseball game.

Louisville’s got a really nice AAA park if you ever make it there.

By David O'Brien

January 12, 2007 11:03 PM | Link to this

Yeah, Jimmy H, but your list is more impressive because you paid to go to those places, went as a fan. I went on my company’s dime. I love hearing fans’ perspectives on these places.

Bonzo, you know that walk to RFK from the subway around the Armory behind the police line? It gets a bit dicey at midnight when there’s no cops and no one else around and you’re rushing to make the last train lugging your laptop.

Bit of an adrenaline rush, though. And it is a nice subway they have in D.C. _ goes everywhere, unlike a certain other limited subway I know.

By Ace

January 12, 2007 11:05 PM | Link to this

Fenway is a beauty, though, because you’re right on top of the action. it would be better, however, if I was 3-6 inches shorter - those seats are not designed for guys taller than Tom Cruise or David Eckstein.

I’ve only been to 4 major league parks, but I think you’re selling Cincy a little short on your list. Not a bad seat in that place, though I once weathered a serious thunderstorm in the upper deck that was scarier than we knew.

But I still like the quaint charm of the newer minor league parks. Something more pure about them, and they are much more friendly on a family budget.

By flbravesgirl

January 12, 2007 11:08 PM | Link to this

DOB, good blog but I have to point out that the Reds train in Sarasota. The Pirates train in Bradenton at McKechnie Field. Which one do you mean?

Lew, my dad went to the opening of the Trop too. Supposedly the new owner spent millions on upgrades of the place but I couldn’t spot any oe them.

By Eric

January 12, 2007 11:11 PM | Link to this

I think the Trop is worse than Dolphin Stadium. If you’re coming from the north, Dolphin Stadium isn’t hard to get to. My suggestion, buy club level seats. Covered if it’s raining, a/c if it’s hot. As for the Trop, it’s such a boring place to watch a game (or maybe that’s the team). Not a very upbeat environment to watch a baseball game. But they do have that cigar lounge… As for Turner Field, the location is not ideal, but the stadium is pretty neat to bring a child do, and let’s face it, that’s what a ball park should be tailoring to, in my opinion. The sky deck is neat, all the things to do in the outfield area too. I like The Ted. As for prices, they’re all too high everywhere, period. Good blog.

By AaronC

January 12, 2007 11:17 PM | Link to this

I am huge braves fan and have been to quite a few stadiums. Turner Field to me is a good baseball field but I feel the place has gone away from baseball to a side show of just entertaining young children. Lets get back to baseball and away from all the cartoon characters.

By Ron

January 12, 2007 11:17 PM | Link to this

DOB, good rankings. The only one I question is Camden Yards, I would rank that at Number 17. But all the others were real good. I actually thought that the new Busch Stadium would be ranked a little bit higher, I never been there, but it looked real nice on T.V. DOB, what you think about Barry Bonds appoligising to Mark Sweeney. Greg Anderson is still in jail for not ratting out Bonds about the Steroid scandal. And now the first chance Bonds gets he ratts out another player. Good thing Bonds does not know anything about Anderson or Bonds would probably ratt him out!!!

By Tampaparrotthead

January 12, 2007 11:19 PM | Link to this

Hey SeattleBravesFan… it ain’t cheap to stay in Buckhead and do anything!!

Stay out around Cumberland Mall at one of the nice, but reasonably priced hotels (Embassy Suites, Holiday Inn Express, Sheraton, Hampton, Wingate, etc.) and you’re in the midst of nice restaurants, (not overpriced or over-atmosphered) a nice mall, a fifteen minute drive to Six Flags and less than that to Whitewater, and a ten minute drive to the Ted, the aquarium, World of Coke, etc… that is, unless there’s an accident or traffic problems on the connector. But, even during the rush you’ll be in pretty good shape, heading south from Cumberland… the vast majority will be heading the other way from downtown. And “bang for the buck” the CNN studio tour is interesting and a bargain. (It will cost you more to park than for the tour.) And the Cumberland area is as safe as anywhere around town.

Now, if you’ve got lots of cash to spend and are feeling brave, (or can afford a bodyguard) go ahead and stay at Buckhead. Oh, and forget that about the bodyguard… the guy that Ravens linebacker killed WAS a bodyguard!

TPH

By desertdawg

January 12, 2007 11:22 PM | Link to this

dont hate on chase field—you would want to take a dip at 115 too. dont forget, we beat the yankees a few years back as well, so thats gotta score some points with you necks.

By The Grinch

January 12, 2007 11:34 PM | Link to this

Back again. Man. DOB and Scalp ‘em, if y’all plan on watching any of the rest of the NFL playoffs (and there’s plenty left, starting tommorrow), you’ll have that song in your head anyway. Might as well play it everywhere you go ‘till after the Super Bowl. Threaten to ban me over lyrics you even said you liked earlier today, DOB WHAT’S THE MATTER? GETTING OVERPLAYED MAKE THE LYRICS NOT QUITE SO APPEALING? Now you know how I feel, brah. Starting at 4:30 tommorrow with the Colts-Ravens and extending through the end of Sunday night’s Chargers-Pats game, we will all know whose country this is. And that’s not counting the pregame show, or the NFL network. Might as well go ahead and buy the alblum, dudes.

By LeoBrown

January 12, 2007 11:41 PM | Link to this

Concerning Turner Field, I’m one who believes that without the existence of the 11yr old facility, there would be far less emphasis on this part of town than there currently is or has been in recent years. There are positive things happening all around it, though primarily residential, and I actually think a lot more is going to come in the next 5yrs.

It will never be Fenway or Wrigley, but as far as I’m concerned, it doesn’t have to be, and can’t be, just for the sake of the history of those two ballparks. And don’t expect to see fine dining a block or two away, but again, is that a determining factor of how great a ballpark experience is?

So many knock a stadium for what it’s not and where it’s located rather than for what it is and the potential that the area surrounding it actually has.

Also, Turner Field (thankfully) replaced Fulton County Stadium, which wasn’t ever a great venue for sports. This has been a major improvement over what was. Furthermore, it gave the city another important, and critical, venue for hosting the Olympic Games.

I’ve been to Turner, Fenway, Miller, Arlington, Safeco, Petco, Dodger’s, and AT&T of the existing ballparks. All were enjoyable in different ways. Hoping to visit more next season!

By LeoBrown

January 12, 2007 11:48 PM | Link to this

What’s the deal with all of the Buckhead bashing? Am I wrong in my understanding that there is much happening to take Buckhead in a different direction? That meaning far fewer clubs/bars and much more shopping, dining, and residential? Yes, it did slide for a while, and there was much focus and coverage on it, and developers have bought up parcels and are now planning major projects to take Buckhead Village to a place it’s never been. Seems as if it will be even more desirable, and safe, than it ever was.

Also, in the summer, it is not expensive to stay in central ATL, especially if it’s on the weekend. Business travel is way down in the summer, as are conventions, so the hotels are more interested in offering attractive rates to entice would-be visitors. I’ve had several options to choose from for under $100/nt, primarily Downtown and Midtown. Many even have Braves (or similar) packages, though you can probably do better pricing and booking everything separately.

By Brian

January 12, 2007 11:48 PM | Link to this

My rankings of current parks that I have seen games at: Wrigley Fenway Camden Yards Miller Park Turner Field (couple of spots higher due to bias) Minute Maid Chase Field- Arizona Kauffman- KC US Cellular Dolphin Shea Metrodome I’ve been to a lot more but they keep on tearing them down. At this rate I will never reach my goal of going to all.

By David O'Brien

January 12, 2007 11:59 PM | Link to this

Grinch, this was good: “Starting at 4:30 tommorrow with the Colts-Ravens and extending through the end of Sunday night’s Chargers-Pats game, we will all know whose country this is.”

They really do need to stop playing it, but won’t. Think how many freakin’ thousands of times we heard Segar’s “Like a Rock” snippet on that commercial….

Leo, agreed on Buckhead. Some of the bashing, I can only imagine, is coming from folks who remember it for what it was a few years back, when it was getting horrible publicity (rightfully so). Steps were taken to get things under control, and it’s made pretty dramatic strides. I’m over there a lot, going to movies at Phipps, or that Barnes and Noble, or Tower Records before it closed. And it’s different now. Plus, how many upscale hotels have gone up in the past two years, including that new Westin? (though I realize most middle-class families aren’t going to be staying with the kids at the Westin)….

Alright, gonna go watch The Illusionist on DVD. Later.

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 12:02 AM | Link to this

Oh, and desertdawg, this ‘neck ranked your damn stadium 12th, four spots ahead of Turner Field. What do you want? (now that I think about it, that might have been a couple spots too high for Chase Field, but oh well, I like it. Plus, your finest resorts out there are relatively cheap in the dead of summer, so it probably skews my thinking)

By Jay

January 13, 2007 12:07 AM | Link to this

Right on the money about Turner field.

I think Skydome should be higher…it has a great downtown area near it and the best part is the incredible view of the CN tower if the dome is open.

By Jimmy H.

January 13, 2007 12:33 AM | Link to this

David..

You had a good point about those of us that go to various stadiums and paid our way. Whenever I get a chance to travel I try to work out a way to see a game in a new park. A friend of mine and I are talking about taking a visit to Cincinnati sometime this summer and we plan to catch a game at the Great American Ballpark if we can. I still envy you for seeing every stadium even though it was part of your job.

I mistakenly left Camden Yards off of my list. My uncle, cousin and myself sat up in the upper deck and caught a Orioles-Yankees game and even though the Orioles have been struggling a lot in recent years the fans still take their baseball very seriously, especially against the Yankees. The game itself also almost had a beanball brawl too! I’ll also add that Boog’s BBQ was also wonderful. My brother made it to a game at AT&T park a couple of years ago and he raved about that park too!

By bulldog_greg24

January 13, 2007 12:35 AM | Link to this

I have been to Fenway and its worse than a long flight on an ASA commuter. The seats are the smallest in the nation, my view was obstructed even though we were in the 2nd level first row. We had these bars right up against our knees for 3 hours and continuous foot traffic in front of our seats. The only place worse was Shea. Your ranking of Busch is off. I have been to the Ted many times and the new Busch reminds me a lot of the Ted, which is a great stadium. I have been to Kansas City, Camden Yards, but Yankee Stadium was great. The fans at Yankee Stadium take it to a new level and generally show up with a buzz. I liked Yankee Stadium much better than Fenway. The person who mentioned the rats was dead on. Restrooms were nasty and those Boston accents made me almost puke. I have been to minor league stadiums like the new one in Montgomery, which is better than Shea or Fenway. I am going to Wrigley this Summer and will be back at Busch. DB you need to sit with the fans at Busch and experience the skyline and enthusiasm in the crowd.

By JayBird

January 13, 2007 12:56 AM | Link to this

My analysis of stadiums I have been to:

1) Wrigley Field: what can you say, it’s the best environment in baseball. Riding the El and seeing the stadium ahead will give you chills. Wrigleyville is packed with great bars and restaurants. Just old time baseball, no bells and whistles, which is what I like. Call me a traditionalist but I like the old time organ playing between innings and the old time feel. A seat in the bleachers for a Saturday afternoon game is amazing.

2) Camden Yards: A beautiful stadium with a great view of downtown Baltimore. A newer stadium but has the feel of an older stadium. Very traditional and simple. Highly recommend Boogs BBQ. And be sure to get a picture with the namesake, he is a nice guy. The area around the stadium is very nice and there are plenty of restaurants and hotels.

3) Ballpark at Arlington: Absolutely huge stadium but very beautiful. I went for Cinco de Mayo last year and it was fun. The Rangers wore Los Rangers jerseys and there was all kinds of entertainment. It was hotter than hell but still fun. The drive to the suburbs kind of sucked and there wasn’t anything around the stadium.

4) Turner Field: My hometown stadium, even though I’m not a Braves fan. The stadium is very nice and there really isn’t a bad seat in the place. That being said, in my mind, the negatives outweigh the positives. The concession prices are ridiculous. Watching a game there is very annoying. Entirely too many sound effects. The only sound effects you should hear are the fans and the game itself, not the sound of broken glass and other nonsense whenever someone hits a foul ball. It is too much of an amusement park and not a baseball park. The ushers are complete a-holes, very rude, and won’t allow anyone to move to a better seat even when there are only 20,000 people there. You give people a little bit of power and they sure run with it. What can you say about the area around Turner Field? GHETTO!!! Don’t wonder too far from the stadium or you will get robbed or killed.

5) Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium: I used to love going to games there as a kid. Even though the Braves were terrible, it was still fun. My favorite memory is seeing Derek Lilliquist hit two homeruns against the Mets. Nothing like getting a bag of Krystals, buying a $5 ticket, and sitting wherever you wanted. I miss those days!

By Jason

January 13, 2007 01:07 AM | Link to this

I’m assuming it was your job to be objective when it comes to rating the stadiums. But a TRUE fan of any team would always, and be default, rate their team’s stadium #1. I haven’t been to every MLB park, but I’ve been to quite a few. But a REAL Braves fan, without giving any thought whatsoever, would rank Turner Field #1 because it’s THEIR field. It’s your home town. Anything you want could have started at #2. But to not give your own hometown team’s park an automatic #1 is sad. If you are truly a fan of that team, that ballpark is THE best place in the world to play baseball, period. Even Twins fans, as bad as the Metro Dome might be, would agree…to them, it is the BEST place to play. People who say that MARTA doesn’t go by The Ted are just lazy. No hotels? Is it really THAT hard to get in a cab for a few blocks…or… oh my gosh… actually walk a few short blocks to a hotel? Gee? Are we THAT lazy these days? Real Braves fans will always think The Ted is #1, walking from the MARTA Georgia State station is nothing to complain about or taking the shuttle or getting there on time and parking is no big deal. These are just lame excuses. It’s YOUR choice to go to a ballgame at The Ted - so complaining about this or that is pointless. If you don’t like it, don’t go.

By Robert

January 13, 2007 01:07 AM | Link to this

I left the Astrodome off my list. Saw one game there in like 1991 or 1992. From what I recall, the lighting was poor and the men’s room stank something awful. Definately lowest on my list as far as domes go

By Jay W

January 13, 2007 01:26 AM | Link to this

Dave-

If you’re going to hate on Cincy chili, at least get the ingredients right. It’s cocoa, not cinnamon, that’s the main ingredient. And at least Cincy is famous for something and has good sports fans. When Cubs fans outnumber Braves fans during game 5 of a division series finale in Atlanta, you know your city sucks.

By Ron Roberts

January 13, 2007 01:30 AM | Link to this

I couldn’t agree more, DOB, about your assessment of Turner Field.

The stadium lacks character, much like Braves fans lack passion in October. The 755 Club was put in the wrong place, and it’s pretty much a given that the empty cavernous sections in the right field upper deck would’ve been a better place to put it, leaving a view of downtown Atlanta. But really, if the 755 Club weren’t there, you’d see a SEA of parked cars, and then the downtown distant skyline.

It still would’ve been better. So, too, would’ve been a few other modifications, like…

1. MARTA access.

2. More exposed brick around the field than blue padding with decals impersonating beams (remember when they had that stuff all over the walls? Hideous. At least the retired numbered players’ on the outfield wall is a better touch.

3. An outfield intrusion by a bullpen or outfield seats. The dimensions are almost symmetrical. But that’s just me.

By mr baseball

January 13, 2007 01:52 AM | Link to this

The only thing in sports more boring than baseball fans talking about ballparks is golfers talking about drivers and putters. Except, of course, for soccer.

Pitchers & catchers reporting to camp can’t come soon enough. Hopefully that will bring an end to the LaRoche-Gonzalez trade speculation. Please give it a rest. And the guy obsessed with Willie Harris, there is life outside your mom’s basement.

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 01:54 AM | Link to this

Ron Roberts: interesting ideas, for sure.

Robert: You should’ve seen the rats under the bleachers at the Astrodome. A bunch of stray cats lived there, and an old guy fed them near the visitor’s clubhouse. I think they kept the cats to help keep at bay the rats, or something like that.

Jay W: You need to correct a lot more folks than me, then. Better get crackin’, Mr. Cincinnati Chili, because these are the recipes I found online.

At www.COOKS.COM:

1. CINCINNATI STYLE CHILI 1 1/2 - 2 … tsp. cinnamon 2 tbsp. chili powder 1 lg. onion, … and cinnamon give the Cincinnati flavor. Simmer the above … comes from the layered effect.

At ALLRECIPES.COM:

Cincinnati Chili I

SUBMITTED BY: Holly “An unusual chili, with cinnamon, cloves, and even chocolate!”

Original recipe yield: 8 servings

US METRIC

SERVINGS About scaling and conversions INGREDIENTS

* 1 tablespoon vegetable oil
* 1/2 cup chopped onion
* 2 pounds ground beef
* 1/4 cup chili powder
* 1 teaspoon ground cinnamon
* 1 teaspoon ground cumin
* 1/4 teaspoon ground allspice
* 1/4 teaspoon ground cloves
* 1 bay leaf
* 1/2 (1 ounce) square unsweetened chocolate
* 2 (10.5 ounce) cans beef broth
* 1 (15 ounce) can tomato sauce
* 2 tablespoons cider vinegar
* 1/4 teaspoon ground cayenne pepper
* 1/4 cup shredded Cheddar cheese

DIRECTIONS:

1. Heat oil in a large saucepan over medium heat. Add onion and cook, stirring frequently, until tender, about 6 minutes.
2. Add beef, in batches if necessary, and cook, breaking up with a wooden spoon, until browned.
3. Add chili powder, cinnamon, cumin, allspice, cloves, bay leaf, chocolate, beef broth, tomato sauce, cider vinegar, and red pepper. Stir to mix well. Bring to a boil. Reduce heat to low; cover and simmer 1 1/2 hours, stirring occasionally.
4. It is the best if you now refrigerate overnight.
5. Remove the bay leaf. Reheat gently over medium heat. Serve over hot, drained spaghetti. Top with shredded cheddar cheese.

at HOMECOOKING.ABOUT.COM

Cincinnati Chili

Ingredients 2 tbsp oil

2-1/2 pounds ground beef

1 quart cold water

1 (6-ounce) can tomato paste

2 large onions (diced)

1-1/2 tbsp vinegar

1 tsp Lea & Perrin Worcestershire sauce

1 clove garlic (crushed)

2 tbsp chili powder

5 bay leaves

2 tsp cinnamon

1 tsp allspice

2 tsp cayenne pepper

1-1/2 tbsp unsweetened cocoa

Salt & pepper to taste

Instructions: In a heavy guage pot, heat oil, add beef until brown, add onions and water and bring to a boil. Reduce to a simmer and add tomato paste and all other ingredients and let simmer 1-1/2 to 2 hours. Adjust with salt & pepper to taste. Remove bay leaves before serving.

AT HOTSAUCEBLOG.COM

1. CINCINNATI STYLE CHILI

   1 1/2 - 2 … tsp. cinnamon 2 tbsp. chili powder 1 lg. onion, … and cinnamon give the Cincinnati flavor. Simmer the above … comes from the layered effect.

You get the point.

Nice try. You sure you’re from Cincy?

By Dave

January 13, 2007 02:00 AM | Link to this

Dave - Don’t bring shame to my name. I’ve been to many of these parks myself. How can you rank Texas Stadium any higher than Turner or anywhere near it?

Sit in the outfield seats, about 20 feet above left field even though you are in row 1 and tell me how bad that view is. I felt like I was sitting in the old Veterans stadium in Philly I was so high up. It literally took me 17 minutes to stand in line for a hot dog in the third inning because they only had one place selling hotdogs and about 6 near it selling everything from pizza to Chinese food. Guess which line was the longest? That’s a no brainer, the one for the hotdogs.

The Texas park is too big (I guess at least true to their moto) and not at all close to the action on the field, which in my opinion is the most important part of the game. Hell, even the equivalent of the Chop House in Texas would be located somwhere in the parking lot at Turner field. I know it’s easy to get lost in either nostaglia or newness, but wake up and get a clue.

Dave

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 02:02 AM | Link to this

Jason, first of all, I’m a reporter who covers the Braves. But to say that all FANS of the team should automatically consider their ballpark No. 1 … uh, why? They can’t criticize or suggest improvements that would truly make their home ballpark better? They should just sit back and say, “Thank you, thank you, this ballpark is the best, better than all others.” Just be automatons, in other words? I think not. I sure hope not.

It’s a nice ballpark, and if not for the rash of ballpark-building in the past decade, it would’ve ranked among the handful of top ballparks in baseball.

But fans of the Braves are fans of the TEAM, doesn’t mean they have to blindly heap praise on the ballpark. Like I said, it’s got a great video board (best in any stadium, any sport), it’s clean, got fair dimensions, and a ballpark feel to it. It’s very good, by today’s standards. Not great, but very good.

By The Real Dave

January 13, 2007 02:03 AM | Link to this

Dave - Don’t bring shame to my name. I’ve been to many of these parks myself. How can you rank Texas Stadium any higher than Turner or anywhere near it?

Sit in the outfield seats, about 20 feet above left field even though you are in row 1 and tell me how bad that view is. I felt like I was sitting in the old Veterans stadium in Philly I was so high up. It literally took me 17 minutes to stand in line for a hot dog in the third inning because they only had one place selling hotdogs and about 6 near it selling everything from pizza to Chinese food. Guess which line was the longest? That’s a no brainer, the one for the hotdogs.

The Texas park is too big (I guess at least true to their moto) and not at all close to the action on the field, which in my opinion is the most important part of the game. Hell, even the equivalent of the Chop House in Texas would be located somwhere in the parking lot at Turner field. I know it’s easy to get lost in either nostaglia or newness, but wake up and get a clue.

Dave

By Tom

January 13, 2007 02:29 AM | Link to this

Fenway looks much better on TV than in person. The trip on the Green Line showed the enthusism maybe more than in the park. Uncomfortable seats. Sorry, but it has to rank below Turner. Go there and you will know why the Red Sox managment wants to tear it down. Wrigley, yeah, nothing better than obstructed views. Funny how the Cubs fans did not flock to the loveable losers this year and last when they returned to losing. Sorry mystique does not cut it. Should be below Turner. Arlington is a poorly conceived retrofit of an ugly park. It also should be below Turner.

Yankee Stadium 17th? Apparently you never saw the park, er monument field.

Chase field also blows.

Other than that, can live with the list.

By Tom

January 13, 2007 02:42 AM | Link to this

Marta has screwed up the shuttle from Underground to Turner. The Five points pick up was much better. You may as well just walk. But, want to talk about misery? Try to get on the Green line leaving Fenway. You cannot hit a local bar becasue the train stops running precisely at midnight or was it 11:30? No A/C in the station and it is dirty hot, humid, hot and hot. Crowded worse than you can imagine and did I mention hot? Oh yeah, one more thing. It is really hot. Thank God for Marta (and I mean that in the literal sense.

By ROCHIE

January 13, 2007 02:45 AM | Link to this

WE NEED PITCHING RIGHT NOW ..IM WORRIED TRADE LAROCHE

By daniel

January 13, 2007 03:13 AM | Link to this

Plenty of comments on the bad neighborhood around New Comiskey. Has anyone actually been there recently? Da Mare’s (Daley) family still leaves three blocks from the stadium, as they have always had. That and the neighborhood is quickly gentrifying, not to mention the projects on the other side of the freeway have been mostly torn down. It will never be Wrigleyville, but the crime rate (violent, property, etc.) has actually always been higher in Lakeview than it has in Bridgeport.

What do you want in a stadium? Quality baseball team, great sightlines, great food, good fans and atmosphere that stays in the game and knows what’s going on. That and it has what many parks, to my great wonder, don’t have; a wraparound concourse that is open to the field, no worries about missing action getting a hot dog or something.

Best thing about Turner Field that I’m surprised no has mentioned is affordability. $10 parking? It’s approaching $20 on Chicago’s South Side and you’d be very lucky to pay less than $35 (not to mention an idiot for driving) on the North Side. That and you can go to oh, five or six Braves games for the price of one Cubs or White Sox games. Only thing pricier in Atlanta is the food.

By Wes

January 13, 2007 03:55 AM | Link to this

I’ve been to Turner field, PNC Park and Dolphin Stadium. Turner field is by far the worst. PNC Park is #1 with me and watching the Marlins whip the Braves in Miami is fun to watch. I don’t care if you’ve been to every ball park or not, we all have our opinion and when I make the tour of ballparks, I’m sure mine will be much different…next up for me is Wrigley field.

Maybe you should do a tour of High School football fields.

By Beezer

January 13, 2007 03:57 AM | Link to this

I’ve been to all the stadiums East of the Mississippi (except new Citizens’ Bank) and about 1/3 of the Western ones (My goal is also to see all the ballparks). While I cannot speak to most of the top of the list, since they are western, I do have some concerns. There is no way that the Ballpark in Arlington should rank as high as it does. The views, the food, the fans are worse than Shea, the stadium location is infinetly worse than Atlanta’s, KS City and Milwaukee combined. Coors field is nice, but unless it’s more than 3/4 full, it’s not a great place. Miller Park, Milwaukee was one of the better parks, and forgetting “nostalgia,” I think it’s as good as Fenway, but with much more comfortable seats and better views of the field. Coamerica Park is WAY overrated here. I like Minute Maid Park, though it is overrated here, but it’s the one park I equate equally ti Turner Field, which should be three points higher.

By Dillon

January 13, 2007 04:06 AM | Link to this

First,and foremost,I came to this blog to see what individuals thought of the writer’s point of view,in regards to his story.

With this in mind,the so-called,”Atlanta Fans”,never fail in their on-going attempts to knock everything that is Atlanta. In this case…,”The Ted”,and the surrounding area.

Every city that I have traveled to,in my forty years of living,with the exception of Atlanta,had locals who would always tell a stranger/newcomer of the great things their city/town has to offer.

With this in mind,SeattleBraves Fan,go check out,”The Ted”,my man. It doesn’t have the charm and history like Wriggley;but,IT was THE STADIUM for the 1996 Games(the same place where Ali lit the flame…the same place where Micheal Johnson,and his,”gold track shoes”,took gold,etc.).

Also,my friend,after taking in a game at,”The Ted”…take a cab over to Cabbage Town which is actually around the corner,to check out the scene. I would suggest Daddy D’s BBQ. The food’s great;plus,it’s the closest thing to a real Juke Joint Blues Club,in the area. Also…check out the other cool place to eat called Six Feet Under(it sits across from Oakland Graveyard;which is where golfing legend,Bobby Jones is buried. By the way…eat/drink on the rooftop deck…not only can you look out,over the grave;but also,you have one of the nicest views of the Atlanta Skyline,while chowing down on New Orleans-Style food.

SeattleBravesFan,If you come to Atlanta,stay at any hotel near Downtown/Midtown/Buckhead(i.e. near Our longest;and most famous street,Peachtree Street)because you’re closer to the MARTA rail lines;plus, easy access to cabs that can take you to wherever you want to go.

In closing,don’t let these,”Atlanta Losers/Cowards” scare you away(they’re mad because the city is ran by mostly Liberals,Gays/Lesbians,Afro-Americans…you know,the ones that Bush and Company likes to blame everything that’s bad in America on,LOL)…believe me when I state that millions has been poured into the area (from South Atlanta,where,”The Ted”,is located,to the North,in Buckhead);and these people like Arthur Blank/Bernard Marcus,Ted Turner,to the founder of MindSring/Earthlink will NOT let their investment go to the dogs.

Again…I hope you come to Atlanta,and enjoy the Southern Hospitality,while Our Braves beat up on your Mariners’,LOL…

By SeattleBrave'sFan

January 13, 2007 04:38 AM | Link to this

Dillon, now that is what i was looking for when I brought it up. Good info, and thanks. Being that I haven’t been to atlanta since we moved 22+ years ago when I was 10, it is a new adventure. It is basically 2 brothers, lifelong Brave’s fans heading out east to see some home games in person. TBS and the occasional interleague game in Seattle or west coast trips in California has been it for the past 22 years. Long overdue. And I forgot to point out earlier, DOB hit it perfectly when he said he thinks Seattle is the country’s most beautiful big city. Anybody thinking about visiting, should without hesitation. I am still in awe on clear days, the views you get. By the way, Go SEAHAWKS on sunday!!

By Kevin Daniel

January 13, 2007 05:40 AM | Link to this

He’s Right Go see a Giants home game, the food and the views are so good that you’ll forget you dropped a $100 to watch Bonds ignore the fans and Zito earn 10K a pitch.

By Robert

January 13, 2007 05:45 AM | Link to this

“believe me when I state that millions has been poured into the area “

a good bit of it into the flourishing crack cocaine business in the surrounding neighborhoods

By Michael

January 13, 2007 07:05 AM | Link to this

Ga Aquarium is pretty, but overrated. Spend $24 at the Cheetah III instead. Camden Yards has plenty of strip clubs, too, within a short distance.

By rob

January 13, 2007 07:08 AM | Link to this

Well, first let me say, Im a Mets fan and i take it as an isult that Shea wasnt ranked last!..its a hole!! but with the new park, it will be in the top 4…nothing can replace Wrigley and Fenway!!!…

By ernesto

January 13, 2007 07:21 AM | Link to this

DOB - I stand corrected, you had MInute Miad at #8, still about 22 above where it should be, in my opinion. Though I haven’t been to the Trop or Pro Player, and uncomfortable they may be, H-town gets my ultra-lowest ranking just for sheer idiocy of design. You can buy a really big Corono there though, I ‘ll give them that.

By ernesto

January 13, 2007 07:25 AM | Link to this

How about 10 most dangerous places to be an away fan in (I’m a displaced Braves’ fan). I was at Shea a few times last year, and I thought people around me were all pretty cool. My buddy told me I was lucky though, I guess it’s not unheard of to get in a scrap just for having the wrong logo on. And I heard they’ll kill you in Philly. I was at Wrigley a few years ago when the Dodgers’ catcher went into teh stands to start fighting the fans - classic. I’d have to say

1. Philly
2. New York
3. Boston

Okay, after that I’d just be guessing. LA and Houston, you can be loud and proud - nobody cares, and of course, I’ve never felt a bad vibe at the Ted or Fulco, but then again, I’ve always been properly attired.

By Erock

January 13, 2007 07:32 AM | Link to this

I disagree with the “no MARTA” complaint so frequently leveled at Turner, I always use the MARTA bus to Turner. The hop from Five Points is quick, and often there’s nice baseball chatter on the bus, If you’re weary of that parking lot, give the MARTA bus connection a try.

By RMM

January 13, 2007 07:32 AM | Link to this

First of all, there is only one Tiger at the enterance of Comerica Park.

Nothing will ever replace the old Tiger Stadium, but hey Comerica is nice. It’s nice to be able to see the whole game no matter where you sit!

By Brent

January 13, 2007 07:35 AM | Link to this

You are shameful for praising Stan Kasten for anything, he is a jerk. He traded Murph and Nique. Enough said.

By Ray

January 13, 2007 08:06 AM | Link to this

Dave, Great job. Fenway, Wrigley speak for themselves. SF’s stadium took a already high standard in the new stadiums and raised the bar. In regards to Miller Park, don’t forget that the roof leaked and had trouble with closing it before the All-Star game. Actually the roof leaked during the HR derby. I was there for that and if you were “playing” second base and ss you would have raindrops falling on your head with the roof closed. But still a pretty good ballpark. Great job Dave

By TPM

January 13, 2007 08:10 AM | Link to this

Turner field is the only baseball stadium I’ve been to where they display the lyrics to Take Me Out To The Ball Game during the 7th inning stretch. Sounds like knowledgeable fans

By Billy Otwell

January 13, 2007 08:48 AM | Link to this

Fenway That’s pandering. Fenway is a rusting, filthy, expensive, blocked view dinosaur with no parking. Atlantans don’t buy this one.

By more poor journalism from the ajc

January 13, 2007 08:59 AM | Link to this

“OK, so ESPN.com beat me to the punch and already ranked the ballparks this week. Doesn’t matter. They only did the top five and bottom one. That’s easy, lazy, weak.”

ESPN.com actually beat you to the punch in 2003, going so far as to update their list upon the completion of Petco and Citizens Bank Park. Easy, lazy, weak? Take a look at the list of what was ranked at each park, each one being explained in detail:

Seat comfort: Hot dogs: Concessions: Signature food: Beer: Bathrooms: Scoreboard: P.A. system: Fun stuff: Souvenirs: Tickets: Exterior: Interior: Access: Ushers: Trading up: Fan knowledge: 7th inning stretch: Local scene: Wild card:

Easy, lazy, weak? Each park review was as long as your entire column.

Easy, lazy, weak? ESPN.com did not rope their idea from another site, pass it off as their own and then rip on that site for doing an incomplete job. On top of that, it wasn’t ESPN.com that neglected to do the research to find out the expanded list was already completed.

Easy, lazy, weak? Is nothing else going on in our fine city? How is this column front page material? I come to expect less and less from the ajc on a daily basis.

By Metropolitan Man

January 13, 2007 09:07 AM | Link to this

I would join in this ballpark ratings thing but I just found more disturbing news then SHEA being listed 26, Jorge Sosa close to being a MET. Eh Grinchy, name the best city that treats jaywalkers like insurgents. It aint NY either buddy.

By Lisa

January 13, 2007 09:18 AM | Link to this

Not a very good rating for Turner field. Maybe it is low because Atlanta is: 1. A Black run screwed up city 2. Unsafe Jungle around the ballpark 3. Complete idiotic MARTA transfer 4. Food overpriced 5. No white people working at Turner field-etc. etc. etc.

By Cheesehead

January 13, 2007 09:23 AM | Link to this

In Milwaukee, you can go on a brewery tour before the game and drink free beer. That should be worth a few points!

By Taylor

January 13, 2007 09:27 AM | Link to this

ha, Lisa’s right…

But I will say Turner Field is the best ballpark in the country. Not only do you get to see the Atlanta Braves, but you can see them for unbelievable prices. How many other ballparks offer dollar seats? I went to 45 home games in ‘04 and many since so I know the park like the back of my hand.

The WORST ballpark I’ve been to is Fenway. Not only is the place a dump, but the fans just stand up the whole game not caring who’s behind them. The fans are obnoxious, and they don’t even watch the game half the time. The food is horrible, and it’s just a nasty place to be.

By Metropolitan Man

January 13, 2007 09:35 AM | Link to this

Lisa, looks like you miss the Atlanta Crackers!!!!! Sorry you miss out on a great sport becasue of ignorance, but that is to be expected from the lower 10% of society.

By Gene

January 13, 2007 09:42 AM | Link to this

The food at Turner Field is a disgrace in both quality and price. Other than that, it is ok.

By Victor Lamson

January 13, 2007 09:49 AM | Link to this

I’ve been to Turner, Riverfront, Tiger, Memorial, Tropicana, Old Comisky, Wrigley, Yankee, Arlington, Fenway, Busch and Safeco. Two games or more at all except for Wrigley and Safeco. Fenway in 1997 for the Brave’s return to Beantown after a 45 year absence was undoubtedly the best. Went back in 2002 for another Braves series, and the atmosphere haden’t changed a bit. A monument to all that’s good in baseball, a feeling that youv’e just stepped through a portal back to the 1920’s. Sure the place is old, but then so is the game. Taylor says the fans were obnoxious, and I’d have to disagree. The only problem I encountered at Fenway was the police, two of them stood directly in front of me in the bleachers (I had first row seats), and when I asked them, they refused to move so that I could see the game. I found customer service, relayed the situation to them, and was offered seats 20 rows behind the plate. Braves win 1-0. Great game!

By Free Denny McClain!

January 13, 2007 09:52 AM | Link to this

Sorry - as a native Cincinnatian, I must stipulate that chocolate and cinnamon DO belong in chili, boiled to a granular soup, poured over spaghetti, cheese, beans and onions, and served on a plate, with a mini “Coney” dog and a Little Kings as a chaser - can we stop by Graeters for ice cream afterwards? My treat! And do not get me started on the Montgomery Inn, Buskin’s, or other local fare. But then again, having set forth your love of the cheesesteaks in the new Philly stadium, I do not think we will see you writing for Epicurious.com anytime soon. If you are going to take a shot on someone else’s food, don’t bring a butter knife to a gun battle.

By Growler

January 13, 2007 09:56 AM | Link to this

I’ve been to Shea, Yankee, Camden Yards, Jacobs Field, Wrigley Field, Fenway Park, Pac Bell, the old Candlestick and the old Jack Murphy.

I agree on Fenway—it’s small and obstructed, but the outside neighborhood is second to none—I think it tops even Wrigley (and if you love the smell of grilled Italian sausages before the game.. wow!)

For overall experience I think San Francisco is tops. It’s just such a cool setting, and they have great fans. (a note about Candlestick.. I was there during the 1993 playoff run for a Giants-Cardinals game, wearing my Braves cap. Some dudes called me “Atlanta” and wanted to fight it out in the parking lot afterwards! Only half-kiddingly!). Jacobs had WAY too many security people walking back and forth, that ruined an otherwise great experience. Camden Yards is terrific.

A note on Turner Field: It is has got to be the most generic of the “new” (Camden Yards, to date) ballparks. Remember: it was Olympic Stadium, and was a big, bland oval before they turned it into a ballpark. Even the best renovation job (and it was a pretty good one) cannot hide its roots. As for the neighborhood, it’s ridiculous and sad that in 10 years it is still the same. A coworker of mine and her female friend were robbed at gunpoint walking back to their car (they parked on the street) a few summers ago. There are still drunks and junkies all round the neighborhood. Maybe it’s me, but as I get older, my tolerance for that gets lower and lower. I would love it if they built a new ballpark for the Braves in the middle of a real neighborhood… where, though?

By Lew

January 13, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this

Lisa-Apparently you have issues. Maybe therapy would help, but then again, maybe not. I think you could make a case for almost any stadium. I attended a large number of Braves games in Montreal. Now, Olympic Stadium has long been considered a lousy stadium. However….It was easy to get to (You catch the Metro 2 blocks from the Braves’ hotel and it lets you off inside the stadium complex). The first time I was there, so few people showed up (mostly Braves’ fans), that the vendors were actually taking food orders and personally bringing the food to your seats. All of this and it only cost $28 (Canadian), to sit by the Braves’ dugout. Great deal. Too bad they’re in DC now.

By Maine Braves Fan

January 13, 2007 10:01 AM | Link to this

Hey I am thinking about coming down and watching a braves game at turner field. I have never been to turner field in my life. Its hard rooting for a team that is far away. If any of you blog writers can tell me if there is a hotel right by the staduim that would be great. I do think that fenway park is one of the best fields. I have been there a hundred times. I watched Kyle Davies pitch his first game. Any ways if anyone has any info or suggestions can you please tell me. Thanks. Go Braves.

By scott

January 13, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

I would have to rate Tropicana Field as one of the best fields in baseball. There is free parking; there is an even temperature; there are no rainouts; there are no bad seats; the concessions are good and it is not overrated like Wrigley or Fenway where comfort is nil.

By dadgum

January 13, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

I will admit that I haven’t been to all the stadiums like DOB, not many have. Nevertheless, I have been to Fenway and it is without a doubt the worst by far sporting venue I have ever been in (have to imagine Marlins home would be right there). NOthing is close to that decrepit uninspiring joint. To hell with the history of the place. I simply don’t understand how it can be ranked so high on any list. Also it is an uncomfortable joint. Oh well maybe it is just me

By Ray

January 13, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

Dave in July, I will be in Cooperstown for a youth baseball tournament. Since I am going to be up there, my question to you is IF you had to choose a game at Fenway or a game at Yankee Stadium which would you recommend? I have not been to either one yet and will not be able to do both on this trip. I have been to Camden and Baltimore’s inner harbor is terrific. Fun stadium. Out of per coincidence was sitting in front of some of the wives and girlfriends of the players and Javy’s I am guessing new wife was behind us and all she could do is trash his ex wife. Nothing like hearing the cat calls while watching a game between the O’s and the Tigers a few years back. Funny conversations to say the least.

By J. Schuerholz

January 13, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this

Pretty good ratings, however I disagree that Dodger Stadium is that high up. I would move Citizens Ballpark up there and put Turner Field after Coors Field @ number #12

By Hunter

January 13, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

AT&T is a great place to watch a game, unless you are sitting in the elevated section (not really an upper-deck) above the left field corner. From this vantage, we could not see a good portion of fair territory in left field.

By chipdip

January 13, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this

I am a life long Braves and overall Baseball fan and have been to the following stadiums in my life time and rank them as follows….

1. Fenway - By far this is the BEST ball park you could ever visit. There is nothing better than a Yankee/sox game in Fenway, whether in the bleachers (my personal fav.), grandstands or right behind home plate. The atmosphere is absolutly electric and the fans are outstanding. I have also been to other games at Fenway other than a Yankees game, and it is still the best baseball atmosphere you could ever imagine, and the pre-festivities outside of the park are just wonderful. Nothing like grabbibg a cold one from the Cask and Flagin before heading into the game…

Yes, Fenway can be pricy, but for a true fan, it is worth every penny. I was a Natioinal Leauge girl my entire life, although I had always loved the rich history with the Sox and Yankees, etc. (what would baseball be without the Yankees or the Red Sox?), but the first time I stepped foot into Fenway, literally tears came to my eyes and I fell in love with Fenway, the fans (who are so much like-minded to me although you rarely see a Braves fan at the game with this much excitment) and the Sox themselves and have been hooked ever since. That was five years ago.

1. Yankee Stadium - You definitely get the feel of hallowed halls when you step into that park. It is such a huge part of baseball history, you have to rank it in the top three. Prices are fare in comparison to other parks and the atmosphere and the fans are great. Only thing, if you wish to visit Monument Park (and of course you want to do that) you ahd better book it over there as soon as you get inside the park as it is only open for about 45 minutes after the park opens and the lines get real long, real fast. And the park only opens something like an hour and half before each game. As a matter of fact, if you ever want to see Yankee Staduim, you better go in the next couple of years before it is only a museum!

2. Wrigley Field - This is of course a classic park, although, unlike Fenway, it is very obvouis that renovations have been done, the seats are not that old, etc. Lots of leg room with these seats though. Food was great and the atmosphere both before and after the game was pretty good. A “must-go” for all baseball fans.

3. Turner Field - Love this park, it is my home park! Prices are too high for what you get and seem to continue to rise, and parking prices are outragous! (Yankee Staduim is cheaper!) But, it is the home of my beloved Braves, so I feel at home there and love it so! I do whish there was a better atmosphere outside of the park for pre-game fun like the other classic parks.

4. Fulton County Stadium. Not the prettiest, but that park holds my first memories of baseball with my dad, and therefore, will always be one of my absolute favorites. I started going to games with my dad when I was just a baby, so lots of sentimental value there. Also, the first place I saw a football game too.

By BIG DADDY

January 13, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

Going to baseball games in Wrigley is an EXPERIENCE every baseball fan should have at least once. Just wonderful.

As for Miami, forget about it. You can forget about it for football too so far as I’m concerned.

I also used to spend time in old Comiskey, saw Ted Williams belt his last homer there in 1960, at the age of 42. It was a line drive and was still rising when it disappeared in the crowd behind the 380 foot marker in right center field. That was one of my all time favorite moments in many years of watching professional baseball in Chicago, New York, Atlanta, Arlington, St. Louis, Detroit and in Cincinnatti’s ole Crosley Field.

By Lew

January 13, 2007 10:26 AM | Link to this

Ray, If you’re going to Fenway in July, you better see about getting tickets NOW. They sell out for the season. It’s a real small stadium (especially by today’s standards) and the ticket demand is unbelievable.

By Lew

January 13, 2007 10:35 AM | Link to this

I”m not so sure I think Fenway is that great a venue. I have been there a number of times. If you go before June, you better wear long underwear and an overcoat. It’s cold. If you sit by Pesky pole (or almost anywhere down the right field line, don’t plan on seeing a single pitch. The sight lines are really bad. A ticket one section up from the Braves’ dugout costs $100 (with service charge and that was two years ago). If you weigh more than 175, you will be a tight fit. If you’re a person of substance, you will literally be wedged into your seat. The food isn’t as bad as some claim and it is about as expensive as at any other sporting event. The cheeseburgers are good. Parking, if you can find it, costs $50 and up. The best bet is to stay at one of the hotels at Copley Square and take a cab. It’s cheaper and easier. The atmosphere is all that it is claimed to be and the area around the ballpark is great and devoted to the Sox. It’s old, uncomfortable and expensive, but it does have the Green Monster and the claims of atmosphere are definitely true.

By Withacee

January 13, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this

I have only seen games in Coors Field, Turner Field, and Fulton County, so to rank them for viewing I’d put Turner first, Coors second, and Fulton a distant third (but what memories). I have sat in most every section of Turner and there is not a bad seat in the house.

I have gone on tours of Fenway, Great American, Coors, and Turner. If you really want to enjoy the nuances of a stadium, take the tour. My brother-in-law is friends with the organist at Fenway, so we got a great tour from him, including walking all the way around the dirt of the playing field, just before the divisional series in 2004. My wife and I were the only two on a tour in Great American a couple of years ago, so we heard and saw tons of history from a gentlemen who knew a lot about Crosley Field and Riverfront in Cincinnatti. If you are ever in a big league town, check out the tour to really get in to the experience of the stadium.

By Vincent

January 13, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

I’ve been to about half the parks in MLB, plus a few that are no longer with us. My current favorite is Citizens Bank Park in Philadelphia — would’ve been better in Center City, and the porch in left is too short, but it’s a wonderfully fan-friendly ballpark, and as a Washington-area resident, I’m hoping many of its features will be somewhat replicated in the new Nationals’ park. I also like what’s now known as Ameriquest Field in Arlington. An attractive place with some nice features (e.g., baseball museum); OK, so there’s no great city skyline view, but then again, Arlington, Texas doesn’t have one. Dodger Stadium is very good, though it’s lost something in the post-O’Malley era, and while I haven’t been to the Big A since its late-nineties renovation, a clarification: Metrolink (commuter rail) and Amtrak make a stop at Anaheim not far from the ballpark. Wrigley was okay, although to be honest I preferred old Comiskey Park (more baseball atmosphere, less frat-boy partying), and Fenway is solid, but not the quasi-religious experience many make it out to be. It’s also every bit a dump as Comiskey was in its final years, though the media will never harp on it as much. Finally, Yankee Stadium, which we’ll lose soon, isn’t the cathedral it was in its old days, especially with hack John Sterling inane “the Yankeeeees winnn!” piped over the P.A. system after every home victory. (Note: that practice began midway through the 2001 season, and the Yanks haven’t won a World Series since. Coincidence? I don’t think so.) The Mets’ Shea has seen better years, and it too assaults our senses with that dumb faux-Italian song played during the seventh-inning stretch. Get back to the Curly Shuffle, guys. (Shea will soon disappear for a new park next door, designed to appeal to Fred Wilpon’s Brooklyn obsession. Though it should’ve been built in Brooklyn.)

By Gayle Abbott

January 13, 2007 10:47 AM | Link to this

Not to fear, Atlanta faithful. The Ted would have ranked much higher if DOB was ranking his favorite Six Flags experience instead of ball parks. Going to a game at Turner Field has become a painful experience for the true baseball fan because in the neverending search for the almighty dollar, the game has become a distraction to the choreographed nonsense going on.

By LeoBrown

January 13, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

Growler,

So you believe it’s an impossibility that your coworker could have had the same fate at some of the other ballparks, or public venues in different parts of town, or other cities? Give me a break. You need a reality check.

As for any other “real” neighborhood being the site of a new stadium, it’ll NEVER happen. What is a real neighborhood, in your astute opinion? Very few of those neighborhood residents, rich or poor, are going to support something like that happening, and oh, it would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to pull it off. You’ve got land acquisition costs, then the actual construction.

The other side of stadiums and a nearby bar scene is that there tends to be a lot of noise, ridiculous traffic, trash, and altercations when you get a lot of people together and throw drinking into the mix. What about that effect on the neighborhood?

The Braves got that stadium damn near for free, thanks to the Olympics. And it was designed with baseball in mind, understanding it would be used for a very small time to host the Olympics and Paralympics. It had to be big, though, to accommodate 85,000. It is probably the largest of the “new” parks out there in seating capacity. And what the hell do they do with Turner Field after this pie-in-the-sky-real-neighborhood facility debuts?

Do I wish it was a half mile or so further north, to be closer to Downtown? Absolutely. I wish it could have been built on the other side of Fulton County Stadium, but it wasn’t. I disagree that in a decade nothing has changed around the stadium, but then again, who am I to say. I’ve only been in that area a handful of times since the Olympics, and have actually driven it. While there’s a long way to go, there are signs of progress. There is new housing springing up all over, including hundreds of them just a mile or two south and east. The area is absolutely gentrifying. And the southside of Downtown is going to be remarkably different 3-4 years from now, bringing the two closer together.

I even read recently that there is a proposal to develop all of that surface parking into retail and residential with garages to house the displaced Turner Field parking. Will it happen? Who knows, because it would be a major multi-year investment. At least it shows there is interest in making further strides to improve the overall complexity of that neighborhood.

For anyone whose tolerance gets lower and lower as they grow older, how about making a contribution to improve the situation instead of ragging about how pathetic you believe it to be. Sounds as if you, along with scores of others with similar beliefs, are part of the problem vs the solution. Try mentoring some kids so they don’t turn out to be the next generation of drunks and junkies. If that’s most of what they see, tell me what the chances are that they will rise far above it in their lifetime?

And I think Lisa’s comments were totally meant to instigate, so I won’t address any individual thing she said. It’s not worth the time, and there may be no help for someone with views like hers anyway.

Though no one making derogatory comments about Turner Field’s location is saying it, the arguments come down to a black issue, as is so often the case in ATL. The stadium is in a black area of town that has been part of a slow revitalization, and I think many white people are frankly uncomfortable and afraid when they are in the minority, unless they are in a big group, increasing the “we’re safe” factor. I have it happen everyday, but it’s the other way around for me. If Turner Field were in an all white (and poor) neighborhood, I wonder what the comments would be like then?

By Wendel Wurlitzer

January 13, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

I think they kept the cats to help keep at bay the rats, or something like that. -DOB

Such is the stuff of the reigning Wurlitzer winner.

By Greg

January 13, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

The only comment I would add about Yankee stadium is that no visit is complete without visiting monument park out in left center. To see and touch the Monuments of Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Joe D helps you put up with the piped in music.

The new stadium being built should bring back memories as it is based on the original Stadium.

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/nyy/ballpark/new_stadium.jsp

By DJ

January 13, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this

And one other thing, Cincy: Cinammon doesn’t belong in chili. Period

Spoken like somebody who just doesn’t get it. I guess his pompous attitude is his way or it’s wrong. It’s time to open your mind and accept things that are different instead of this Hitler like attitude.

By Roy

January 13, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

Let me say up front, Dave, I think that you are the very best baseball announcer in the game. When I lived in Ft Lauderdale, I really enjoyed your calls (now live NE Georgia). Now that you have made the big time, there is none better.
You have done a great job rating stadiums—I have visited many of them. I would say that Turner Field has the friendliest employees of any park. I like their eye contact and big smiles. Yes, the concession is over priced, but I would rate the stadium higher. As for Dolphin Stadium, I like the empty seats on either side of me so that I can spread out. And, I like the Cuban Sandwiches. Lord, help the Marlins get a new stadium! I plan to attend the Marlins opener in Washington, so your comments about RFK have ruined the trip for me. Maybe it won’t be too bad, at least we will get to do the tourist thing in our nation’s capital.

By Growler

January 13, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

LeoBrown, you’re such an idiot. I was waiting and waiting to see the “race card” played… and if you didn’t I wouldn’t have responded, but that’s what it’s all about to you. And it’s SO old, and so wrong, too.

To answer your question: no, getting robbed at gunpoint would NOT happen in the vast majority of areas around other ballparks. Not at least while walking to a car within a few blocks walking distance of a stadium. Don’t believe me? Ask DOB. He’s been to all 30. I’ve been to enough of the others to tell you the same thing.

And yes there is new housing on one side, but nothing on the other side. For what it’s worth, it has NOTHING to do with race… at all. It’s a socio-economic issue. The original park was built in a low-income part of town… and the rebuild was in that stadium’s parking lot. Other new stadiums have either been built in revitalized sections of cities’ DOWNTOWNS.

Oh, one other thing: I tutored kids in Hands On Atlanta’s Discovery Program at Parklane Elementary (off Cleveland Avenue) for 10 years, 90+% of them were black… so you’re patronizing me without knowing a thing about me . This is not about race at all… it’s about location, and the fact the stadium is generic and boring.

By Carolina Lady

January 13, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

I’ve seen all those parks on TV; does that count?? Seat was incredibly comfortable; nice clean private rest room; all the food and drink I wanted for no more than I’d pay for it at the grocery; air conditioned; even had my cat there with me! :-)))

Cinnamon in chili?? Chocolate sauce over spaghetti??? Oh. My. Lord. Now I’m truly nauseous.

By BravesFaninRockies

January 13, 2007 11:20 AM | Link to this

Outstanding post idea, DOB. I still have many MLB parks to visit (including the Ted), but of the active ones, my faves are:

1) Jacobs Field. Great atmosphere, plus wonderful memories — I saw one game each there of the ‘95 ALCS (Big Unit pitched) and the World Series (the game Maddux lost).

2) Dodger Stadium. You’re right. On a clear summer night, there’s no place better to see a big league game.

3) Coors. I’d place it here even if I didn’t live near Denver. It’s easy to get to, in a great place to hang out before and after the game. And the sight lines aren’t bad.

4) Camden Yards. Not as much fun as Memorial Stadium (see below), but still a neat place. And you can get there by train from D.C.

5) Yankee Stadium. Granted I was there in the early ’80s, but it was just plain unfriendly. Speaking of unfriendly …

6) Shea. Ugh. No wonder I hate the Mets.

Of the now-retired places I’ve been, in reverse order of preference:

4) Fulton County. Lots of fine memories, but what a dog. Of course, I went there a lot in the ’80s when the team was awful and the place was empty.

3) County Stadium, Milwaukee. A decent old ballpark. Plus there were at least a couple of neighborhood bars nearby that had “rust belt” all over them. Cool.

2) Memorial Stadium. Not a pretty place, but the fans were insane in a good way. Balmer sports fans are wonderful.

And, the best place you can never see a game again is:

1) Historic Durham Athletic Park, original home of the Bulls. I lived in the Triangle area throughout the ’80s, and DAP was the best. The bathrooms stank, parking was awful and the seats hurt, but the atmosphere was unbeatable. No “Hit Bull, Win Steak” sign on the outfield wall — Ron Shelton brought that in for “Bull Durham.”

I saw many future Braves play there: Albert Hall, Milt Thompson, Brett Butler, David Justice, Gerald Perry, Jeff Blauser, Mark Lemke, Ronnie Gant, Zane Smith, Brad Komminsk(!) … Julio Franco as a 150-lb shortstop in the Phillies organization (he could rake back then, too).

The beer was cold, the tickets cheap and the fans appreciative. Can’t beat that.

By noel malone

January 13, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this

my top five are Seattle, Milw, Pitt.,Balt., and Atl. Hate Arlington and Phoenix. SF is ok, but I can’t stand tricked-up ballparks and the wall in right field is definitely tricked-up.

By george

January 13, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

I haven’t been to all 30, but have been to more than 20 including, Fenway, Wrigley, Yankee, Chase, Minute Maid, Dodger, Angel, Cellular, and Camden. No way would I put Minute Maid, Dodger Stadium, or Chase Field ahead of Turner Field. Turner Field is not close to being top, but it is certainly higher than 16 of 30.

By Mike

January 13, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this

WHAT A MORON! you have Turner Field ahead of Yankee stadium. The shear history alone is worth more than turner field.

By Lew

January 13, 2007 11:50 AM | Link to this

Good Morning Ma’am-Hope all is well in NC. I have to agree. Cinnamon or chocolate on chili sounds like an issue for therapy, but when in Cincinnati…..No, I still couldn’t do that. I’ve never been quite certain WHY Cincinnati should be famous for chili, of all things. Although I have heard that Graetner’s ice cream IS thew real deal. I still like Connie Mack Stadium the best. It’s where I saw my first games, including loss #7 in the terrible end to the 64 season. Callison hit three straight Home Runs over the stainless steel wall in right and they still lost to Hank and the Mil. Braves. The memories still abound-like Richie Allen’s inside the park HR and the longest HR I ever saw, hit by Ernie Banks. Memories and baseball go together much better than chili over spaghetti.

By chipdip

January 13, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

Oh, and a couple of other thoughts on Fenway…The best best for finding Tickets is Ebay; if you want to go in the spring, yes it is cold, but worth it; make sure to get a Fenway Frank (the vendors sell them in the stands); and take the “T” (the train) never, try to park. Save money and stay in an outskirt of downtown Boston, like Maulden, and take the T every where.

By Oil Soap

January 13, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

I’d like to talk about a great minor league ballpark. I’m from Greenville, SC…you may remember we used to have the Greenville Braves. I loved going to G-Braves games, watching guys like Chipper and AJ and Glavine come up through the system. But the Braves wanted Greenville to pony up for a new stadium, G-ville refused, the Braves move the AA team to Pearl, Miss….and what does G-Ville do? They build one of the nicest minor league stadiums you could ever wish for…for the single A RedSox team. Its a great little stadium…great food, great downtown location, etc. I am not complaining that I lost my connection to the Braves. I am not complaining that its now a single A team (though the quality of play is a significant drop-off). I am only complaining about the new name of the team….the Greenville Drive. The Drive??? How do I pull for the Drive. Go Drive? What is that? Is anyone else here from Greenville? Can we do anything about the name of this team? Please?

By Mike Sturm

January 13, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this

Being from St. Louis I am going to show how big a homer I am. The new Busch deserved to be higher on this list. I believe your biggest complaint was about the press box which tells me why you do not like it. They are redoing the press boxes for next year and yes they will be airconditioned. When you build a stadium as fast as they did you are bound to miss some things and the Cardinal ownership group has acknowledged this. Since coming to St. Louis, the owners have done everything they can to make their park the best in baseball. They turned the cookie cutter stadium that the old Busch was and turned it into a real ball park. Every year there was changes based on fan requests for change. They have done so in the new stadium already. The fans complained about the size of the foul poles because they were to big and abstructed views, so they replaced them. The President of the Cardinals can be reagulary seen sitting in seats through out the stadium, asking fans what they think, what they would like to see, then the Cards change accordingly. I think you left one important aspect out of your ranking, the one thing that truelly makes a stadium great. The Fans!

By Joeventures

January 13, 2007 12:04 PM | Link to this

No one seems to realize how close the Ga State MARTA station is to the stadium. Or, maybe I’m used to walking.

Though it is fun to walk past the huge line of cars waiting to get into the parking lots.

By LeoBrown

January 13, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

Growler,

Race is not what it’s all about to me. There were comments made by others that referenced the race card prior to mine, but they weren’t addressing your post specifically. Other posters have probably thought it, but refrained from making direct comments. I get so frustrated with people b*** and moaning about what’s wrong, what’s wrong, what’s wrong. I like ATL for it’s potential, and what positive things have happened over the years. Real progress has been made, and more is to come. I prefer to look at what’s right, or what can get better. Perfection is an impossibility, but the desire to make positive advances is very real.

Nothing you said about the Summerhill area was positive. No, you didn’t say anything about race, but I did. I think it’s very easy to say how wrong it is to talk about race, but it’s something many people face with regularity, whether blatant or an undertone. So it is, in fact, reality. Atlanta became a predominately black city due to white flight decades ago. So how is that not about race? Only now is the tide turning, with the rekindled interest for intown living.

To my recollection, there were no options of building the new ballpark in the heart of Downtown. It was an easy, and timely, solution to build adjacent to the existing facility to meet the construction deadline. What’s more, they already owned most of the land. And we’re talking about a deal that was done 15yrs ago. I mean, in hindsight perhaps it could have gone where Centennial Park is now, but I prefer the park environment to a big 50K seat stadium.

I applaud you for being in the seeming minority and taking part in an attempt to better society. That is inspiring, and encouraging to learn. However, just as you said I know nothing about you, you know nothing about me to call me an idiot. Your admittance of waiting and waiting to see who played the race card based upon your comments says to me you wanted it to happen, and perhaps you structured your words in a certain way to test your theory. That is what is so unfortunate. Well, guess I was your guinea pig. So be it. If it wasn’t about race, why not say so, stating it’s a socio-economic issue. But you didn’t, instead leaving it for someone else to call it out. I couldn’t agree more with your expanded position, but the fact of the matter is that it has a black face on it, no matter how you spin it. It is reality, period.

Your experiences and those of DOB have absolutely nothing to do with what “can” happen (and no doubt, has) in other locations around other ballparks. You are but two among tens of millions of annual ballpark visitors and can’t speak for anyone but yourselves and the few others you know who have told you of their experiences. Last time I checked, crime doesn’t only happen in dark alleys or in the hood. While it is less likely in concentrated and heavily populated areas, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t, or can’t, occur.

You don’t think that history has anything to do with why that area is in the less-than-satisfactory condition you seem to indicate it is? At least it has Turner Field to draw some outsiders to it. Without it, it would be a forgotten land right off the Downtown Connector and I-20 that is blindly passed by hundreds of thousands of people everyday. Instead, it has a chance for more focus and dedication on improving, and reaching its true potential.

My hope is that in another 3-5 years, however bland and generic Turner Field may still be, the area surrounding it begins to escape the depths of negativity expressed so often. It won’t happen all at once, but one step at a time. I am optimistic that it will get better. Instead of plopping the ballpark down in some other neighborhood, work to make the one it is in better. That appears to be a decidedly different opinion to yours.

By George

January 13, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

As much as I loved to go to Turner Field during the last eight years of my life in Georgia, PNC Park is sooo much better. There is not a bad seat in the house, the downtown skyline seems to bend over the outfield, and you can kayak in the Allegheny River to catch home runs.

And the best seats are easy to get since the Pirates suck!

By Carolina Lady

January 13, 2007 12:11 PM | Link to this

Hey, Lew! All’s well, thank goodness! How deep is the snow up there? There is no way on God’s green earth that chocolate sauce belongs on spaghetti. Just ain’t natural. So much for lunch! (I could lose a couple of pounds after all those pancakes with delicious VT maple syrup…..grin).

I wish I could have gone to “live” games but circumstances just didn’t permit it. I did see the Braves vs the Richmond Braves in RIC once. Chris Chamblis was walking from the visitor’s dugout towards the on-deck circle. He had a bat in his hands and was stretching this way and that. At one point the bat was behind his head, laying across the top of his shoulders - and it was several inches shorter than the width of his shoulders. Whoa!

By Mark

January 13, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

Admittely I’ve only been to Turner (and Fulton Co.). However, I have a hard time believing it’s 16 out of 30. It’s a solid, solid stadium. I think it’s closer to 8-10 area.

By Tom

January 13, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

After reading most of your comments about the stadiums, I noticed you took into account several aspects.

With that said, how in the world can you put AT&T Park at the top? I’ve never been more miserable at a baseball game than I was last summer. The weather there for a baseball game is horrid. If there’s ANY place that should have a retractable roof, it’s there. Hands down…the worst time I’ve had at a baseball game.

I LOVED Texas’ stadium. No way that thing should be ranked that low. I went when Juan Gon was there and the playing of “The Natural” was pretty sweet after a dinger.

The grassy knoll, the facade in right field…the little league ballpark adjacent, parking right there at the stadium!!!!!! Way too low.

Wrigley was magical. Loved it.

You mentioned that you hated the kid friendly atmosphere at Turner? Wow… I have no kids and still recognize that statement is bizarre.

Finally…if you ban Grinch for posting lyrics he likes, ban yourself. You do it constantly and now recipes???????

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this

Wes (at 3:55 a.m.) wrote, “I’ve been to Turner field, PNC Park and Dolphin Stadium. Turner field is by far the worst… Maybe you should do a tour of High School football fields.”

Yes, we’ll get right on that. And Wes, get some sleep.

By Metropolitan Man

January 13, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

I was reading these post about the locations of Stadiums. All I know is grandma lives across from the bronx zoo (stankees) and hates it becasue: 1)Night games shines lights right into her apt windows. 2) She can never get used to the noise or the roar of the crowd. 3) Its a residential area and gets jammed pack to the point of a complete standstill. Now if she liked baseball, all of this would suit her just fine. Location, Location, Location. Having a stadium in the middle of your dowtown district is just asking for trouble. There will never be enough ample parking. Hell, 2 years ago I went to the braves homeopener and the stupid police never had the roads prepared for opening day in time in the residential area. Imagine if that had been downtown, I would have gotten to my seat by the 4th inning. Anyway give me a staduim in the residential that when they tear it down, the new one will be right across from the old one, being used as a paking lot. I’m actually glad Shea and the stankees are following suitof Turner and building the new stadiums in the old stadiums lot, not relocating downtown or somehwere else that traffic cant be a smooth flowing motion after and before game time.

By Cisco

January 13, 2007 01:00 PM | Link to this

If the MARTA hook-up was better to Turner field and the surrounding area around the ballpark was less like Nigeria maybe people would come downtown more.

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 01:02 PM | Link to this

Very good and helpful comments for Atlanta visitors from Dillon, and I’ll second this recommendation he made for my very favorite Atlanta restaurant (which is also extremely affordable and casual, by the way). And it’s only about 5 minutes (or less with no traffic) from Turner Field:

Dillon wrote, “Check out the other cool place to eat called Six Feet Under(it sits across from Oakland Graveyard;which is where golfing legend,Bobby Jones is buried. By the way…eat/drink on the rooftop deck…not only can you look out,over the grave;but also,you have one of the nicest views of the Atlanta Skyline,while chowing down on New Orleans-Style food.”

I’ll also add, the shrimp and grits are the best entree on the very large and varied menu, and the fried green tomatoes rank among the best I’ve had anywhere.

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 01:06 PM | Link to this

Oh, and SeattleBravesFan, Dillon’s right about a lot of stuff he said. You’ll have a great time here, don’t let anyone dissuade you from coming. And the food here _ well, it’s a city that consistently ranks among the nation’s top 10 by top foodies, much like your city. And here, you get sweet tea everywhere.

By Jonny

January 13, 2007 01:07 PM | Link to this

I love Turner Field. I think the standing room baseball option is marvelous and there really isn’t a horrible seat in the house. And yes, I’ve been in the Clark Howard seats. But the thing that really brings me down about Turner is the silly crap that is geared for kids. The cartoon network crap is annoying as are the children that it draws. I swear, seeing a group of 30 kids and two adults in puke yellow shirts brings shivers to my spine. Live baseball used to be so much better when there were cursing old men with stinky cigars and cow bells to keep annoying kids and their over protective parents away. Other than the kids, I love Turner.

By Chris

January 13, 2007 01:15 PM | Link to this

Wrigley Field—itself—is a dump and a horrible place to see a game. The neighborhood is what makes the stadium so famous.

It’s not a true baseball fan’s park, rather it’s more like a museum of a losing organization.

By Metropolitan Man

January 13, 2007 01:17 PM | Link to this

Hey Cisco, just go to Fenway where you’ll fit in just fine.

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 01:20 PM | Link to this

RMM wrote: “First of all, there is only one Tiger at the enterance of Comerica Park.”

RMM (Really Misinformed Man) is wrong. (Why do folks like this guy and the Cincy chili expert act as though I’m making stuff up?)

I went online and here’s the dscription I found, since I couldn’t remember exactly how many tigers I counted as I sat across the street at a hamburger joint on the World Series workout day before Game 1, but was certain it was a lot:

“Outside of the main entrance to the stadium there is a tiger statue that is approximately 15 feet (4.6 meter) in height. There are eight other heroic-sized tiger statues throughout the park, including two prowling on top of the scoreboard in left field. The nine tigers were created by New York Sculptor Michael Keropian. Along the brick walls outside of the park are thirty-three tiger heads with lighted baseballs in their mouths.

“Whenever the Tigers hit a home run, the eyes on the tiger statues on the top of the left field scoreboard light up and tiger growling is played through the public address system.”

So RMM, you are, as I mentioned, quite wrong.

That said, the abundance of tigers, not to mention a freakin’ Ferris Wheel and Merry Go-Round at the park (or as RMM might say, no Ferris Wheel nor Merry Go-Round) doesn’t seriously detract from the ballpark or the experience. Good ballpark, and a traditional baseball town that’s been reawakened by Jim Leyland’s AL championship squad.

By Get Up Off Your Butt, JS!

January 13, 2007 01:21 PM | Link to this

Isn’t it sad that JS is so comfortable with this team as it stands, despite its many flaws (whoa, KC, down, boy), that DOB is forced to amuse us with a “ranking the ballparks” blog rather than actual Braves news? Of course, unless he’s a sportswriter or a multimillionaire, a working man will never visit more than two or three of these parks in his lifetime, what with lavish airfares and hotel stays, $50-$100 tickets, $15-$25 parking and equally overpriced concessions. Guess we could mortgage our houses like that Philadelphia Eagles fan did to attend for the Super Bowl a couple years ago.

But as long as we’re ranking ballparks — Mark, where do you get off admitting you’ve never been anyplace but Fulton County or The Ted, but you know The Ted is ranked too low? What do you base this opinion on? The view of each ballpark from your TV set? Talk about a Braves homer — you’ll even get all defensive over your damn ballpark.

How about a debate even the poorest Braves fan can relate to — Fulton County Stadium vs. The Ted. I’ll get all nostalgic here and vote for Fulton County.

By journalist jimmy smith

January 13, 2007 01:23 PM | Link to this

journalist believes that stadiums should be ranked on basis of bathroom facilities since most journalists spend much time there after ingesting bad cheese and too much coffee.

next, recipes: journalist will provide favorite ugandan recipe for stir fried panda. first, find wok and gather bamboo shoots. anyone see mei lan?

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 01:23 PM | Link to this

RMM, see if you can count one tiger in this picture:

http://www.pbase.com/isshinryu_mom/image/27851653

By Jim

January 13, 2007 01:26 PM | Link to this

Lew, I agree with you about Olympic Stadium. Inside it was a dump, but you could sit behind home plate for $30 Canadian, it was easy to drive to and park, and the fans that did show up were great. Montreal was a great city to visit and the drive through the Adirondaks and then across the St. Lawrence was very pleasant. I’d much rather see a Braves game there than in Shea, especially when the traffic pattern from LaGuardia took the planes over the stadium. I also prefered the Vet to Shea despite the awful artificial carpet. The acess to the stadium from the NJ Turnpike was easy and relatively quick and the Phanatic deserves to earn a few bonus points when you rate the park.

By The Bard

January 13, 2007 01:29 PM | Link to this

Methinks DOB doth enjoy RMM’s misstatement too much.

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 01:29 PM | Link to this

Brent wrote: “You are shameful for praising Stan Kasten for anything, he is a jerk. He traded Murph and Nique. Enough said.”

Enough indeed. Actually, it was shameless more than shameful. Or maybe both.

By Sam

January 13, 2007 01:36 PM | Link to this

Hey Dave, Fenway Park is nice but the seats are too small, I was told that last season someone paid $90.00 to park. 2 years ago my wife and I went to see the Braves play the Red Sox at Fenway. I paid $175.00 for one ticket and 2 for $350.00. I purchased the tixs from Ace Ticket Agent from Boston. They told me these tixs were great. Well when I got to the Park to sit at our seats. their was this large structural pole in front of us blocking the pitchers mound and home plate. The moral of the story is don’t buy any tixs from Ace Ticket Agent from Boston. We got robbed.

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 01:40 PM | Link to this

Free Denny McClain! wrote: “Sorry - as a native Cincinnatian, I must stipulate that chocolate and cinnamon DO belong in chili, boiled to a granular soup, poured over spaghetti, cheese, beans and onions, and served on a plate, with a mini “Coney” dog and a Little Kings as a chaser - can we stop by Graeters for ice cream afterwards? My treat! And do not get me started on the Montgomery Inn, Buskin’s, or other local fare.”

Now THAT is the kind of post I like, a native who has his facts straight and not only defends, but boasts about his city’s offerings. Free Denny McLain, seriously, thanks _ and you are SO right about Montgomery Inn, which is one of the very best rib joints I’ve ever been to. The one on the river there, where all the players and managers have gone for decades. Love that place. And the Precinct has incredible steaks.

Actually, I ate at Skyline Chili several times when I first moved to Ft. Lauderdale (they’ve had a Skyline Chili there for many years). And the chili actually is pretty good. But I just prefer hot, spicy chili, the traditional stuff you get elsewhere. But I know Cincinnati is widely recognized as a chili epicenter, and many folks swear by their style of chili.

It’s just a matter of taste, literally. I mean, when I say Eastern North Carolina pulled-pork BBQ with the vinegor sauce is absolutely the best BBQ in the world, I get villified by plenty of people out in Kansas City and Texas, where they have completely different styles of ‘que, and by some down here who swear by Dreamland in Alabama or Rendezvous in Memphis, etc.

It’s all good, bro. No worries. And I promise, next summer in Cincy I’m going to try _ again _ the full-on chili with the spaghetti and everything else.

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 01:44 PM | Link to this

Billy Otwell wrote: “Fenway That’s pandering. Fenway is a rusting, filthy, expensive, blocked view dinosaur with no parking. Atlantans don’t buy this one.”

Who am I pandering to, our large readership in Boston? Billy, if I were pandering, wouldn’t it make more sense to pander to Atlantans and Braves fans by voting Turner Field No. 1? Just asking.

By Mr. Leach

January 13, 2007 01:44 PM | Link to this

Turner Field should be ranked higher because of the quality of our strip clubs. Georgeous, completely naked women. Also, our high-end hookers are Penhouse pinup girls. Great booty means The Ted rises up the list.

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 01:47 PM | Link to this

Billy Otwell, you better talk to Chipdip, who wrote:

“I am a life long Braves and overall Baseball fan and have been to the following stadiums in my life time and rank them as follows�.

“Fenway - By far this is the BEST ball park you could ever visit.”

Chipdip, Billy declared that Atlantans aren’t buying that. You mustn’t be from Atlanta.

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 01:54 PM | Link to this

Lisa, regarding your 9:18 a.m. post _ I expect more from our bloggers here at the Braves/Man in Black. Especially from our female bloggers, who usually are intelligent and respectful. But we’ll leave up your post, as a rather frightening reminder.

By Bear Bryant

January 13, 2007 01:54 PM | Link to this

Hey, DOB, if you do like Dreamland and I sure do, there is one in Atlanta now.

Pity, they have caved in and added delicious side dishes to their menu.

I loved the sign that said, “No beans, no slaw, no fries. Don’t ask.”

By Rip

January 13, 2007 01:55 PM | Link to this

When assessing I am glad you included some on some of my top criteria:

1. Proximity to public transportation
2. Proximity to downtown / hip area
3. Food and concessions
4. Views from home plate & home plate
5. Some unique aspect or differentiator

Turner Field took a hit for me in 2006 when they began to accpt credit cards and no longer selling the oil can 24 oz brews. Credit card machines make a concession run cost you an inning. Those plastic bottles are awful. David - i feel you have a long road and season ahead. I would be surprised if this team wins 68 games.

By Wally Butts

January 13, 2007 02:00 PM | Link to this

The Bear and I got together and fixed a game at Dreamland once!

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 02:02 PM | Link to this

LeoBrown, love your thoughtful and reasonable posts, and love how you don’t do the knee-jerk reactionary thing. Seriously, wish we had more like you….

OIL SOAP, you and others have pointed out minor league parks. I agree, and if more people who are so turned off by major league prices and salaries, etc, would take the time to get to a game at some of today’s splendid new minor league parks, I bet they’d be rejuvenated by the experience. How ‘bout the Rome (Ga) ballpark? I hear that’s a great place, though I haven’t been there yet (I want to get there this summer). And the one in downtown Memphis is the envy of some major league teams.

By Roy

January 13, 2007 02:02 PM | Link to this

Dave, you are right on! “Eastern North Carolina pulled-pork BBQ with the vinegor sauce is absolutely the best BBQ in the world”

By Al Sharpton

January 13, 2007 02:03 PM | Link to this

re: Lisa’s 9:18 post -

Thanks for pointing this out, DOB. This type of invective justifies everything I do or say.

By Oh by the way

January 13, 2007 02:05 PM | Link to this

Rip, happy birthday to you and fellow ’60s and ’70s entertainment icon Charles Nelson Reilly. Really thought you both were dead.

By Bear Bryant

January 13, 2007 02:08 PM | Link to this

And it was a pleasure doing business with you, Wally, as usual.

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 02:08 PM | Link to this

Ray wrote, “I will be in Cooperstown for a youth baseball tournament. Since I am going to be up there, my question to you is IF you had to choose a game at Fenway or a game at Yankee Stadium which would you recommend?”

Fenway. But as Lew pointed out, all games sell out early, even before the season begins, I think. You’ll probably have to buy from a scalper, but as long as you can afford to pay $50 or so for cheap seats, depending on the game, it’ll be worth it just to experience it once. It’s really a tremendous overall experience. Someone pointed out the smell of those Italian sausages on the grills by the entrance…. Damn, I can smell ‘em now. You’ll love the place. Just hope you get good weather.

And by the way, Cooperstown is a fantastic experience, the little ballpark, the downtown area. Your kid will remember that forever. So will you.

By TennesseePaul

January 13, 2007 02:10 PM | Link to this

One great minor league park is the Greenville Joe’s, er, Drive. The Red Sox completely out of place A ball park in South Carolina. It’s a miniture of Fenway right downtown. Just beautiful. The only bummer is, the Braves didn’t stick around in the city.

By Free Denny McClain!

January 13, 2007 02:13 PM | Link to this

David,

Given your acknowledgement of The Inn and The Precinct, you have returned to my good graces. I do agree - a chili debate will go on and on in the same manner as a barbeque debate (or even a debate about how to spell barbeque) - wet, dry rubbed, Memphis, Chicago, Dreamland, yadda yadda.

Going back to the central thesis of your article - stadiums - I do need to make one comment. None of the new “retro” stadiums, Atlanta included, will ever truly recapture what the old stadiums were. My first MLB game was when my father took me to one of the last games at Crosley Field. No other way to describe it, it was a “man’s joint”. It smelled of hot dogs, urine, cigar smoke, and stale beer - the way a stadium should smell. I was amazed when Pete Rose literally hit the ball out of the park - how could a human being do that? There was zero shade, we baked along the third base line, the seats were wood, worn and uncomfortable, yet it still ranks amongst one of the most glorious experiences I have ever had.

No racing mascots between innings. No HDTV scoreboards. No valet parking. No pool or waterfalls in the outfield. No Cartoon Network “experiences”. No video game arcades. No sushi or veggie wraps.

Are these “new” stadiums - AT&T in SFO included - really an acknowledgement that we are no longer baseball fans? Do we all have such ADD that we need all this other stuff? The actual game has become a footnote. What ever happened to real fans of the national pastime?

Alas, it is a sign of my age (44) that I harkin back to memories of a simpler, easier time. Mind you, I was spoiled growing-up during the Big Red Machine days. We actually thought Riverfront was a pretty cool place, even though it was a utilitarian monstrosity. B ut thereason we thought it was cool was because we had a world class product to watch on the field.

I have to say, one of the most American things I have ever done is watch the Cubs and Dodgers play in Wrigley during the day on the 4th of July.

Final comment. I am a baseball fan, a huge baseball fan. We moved to Iowas in the early 80’s, and literally lived within two miles of the Field of Dreams. My parents are actually in the movies - last sceen, Kevin Costner and Ray Liota playing catch - they are in the 6th car entering the driveway in the fall montage shot. To when that glorious screenplay speaks of the sights and smells of the game, it strikes a chord with me as to what the game is really about, not these psuedo retro Disneylands that have become the vogue and bane of the game over the past decade.

By MBATL

January 13, 2007 02:15 PM | Link to this

DOB, enjoying reading your others’ opinions on ballparks. I don’t have too much to add, except for Turner, and Atl-Fulco, I’ve only been to Jacobs, right after it opened, and to Camden; all are pretty similar to the Ted (from what I can recall). I used to get some killer seats at the old Busch - first row, firt section 3B side of home - and the full treatment that went with them… preferred parking, free buffet, open bar - it was sweet, and of course I loved going there, but probably wasn’t representative of the typical fan’s experience (it was comped through a firm I did work with there).

I think Turner is great. It would be greater if MARTA ran down there - it’s SO easy to go to the GA Dome or Phillips arena on MARTA. And, it would be great if they could’ve built it at Centennial Park - that would be a really cool complex.

As to the neighborhood - I live in Atlanta (not in the suburbs). I’ve been victimized twice by crime; car-jacked once at gunpoint, and burglarized once. Both times it was white trash. (I’m white, btw, so guess I can get away with saying that). I’ve never had anything but interesting and friendly chat with the locals down around the Ted.

It’s not Mayberry, people; you’ve got to be aware and use common sense no matter where you go in Atlanta, but I’ve never had any problems around the Ted except some drunken bravado buy paying customers - guess you get that anywhere.

By Robert

January 13, 2007 02:17 PM | Link to this

Arguing about something subjective, like which stadium is “better” than which ither stadium - well, it’s like competing in the Special Olympics

Even if you win, you’re still a retard

Just because you might have a different rank list of sporting venues doesnt make DOB a moron

Arguing about chili recipes is not far down the list

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 02:17 PM | Link to this

Growler, just so you don’t think I was piling on, I wasn’t. I agree with you on this point you made: “Other new stadiums have either been built in revitalized sections of cities� DOWNTOWNS…. it�s about location, and the fact the stadium is generic and boring.”

Now, I wouldn’t say Turner Field is so generic and boring (the new St. Louis ballpark is), but it’s just not real special, other than the hi-def video board (admit it, folks, we love that monstrous thing.)

And as was pointed out, the stadium came at a relatively miniscule cost for the Braves, because it was paid for by Olympic funds, though Atlanta and the Braves had to help with the renovation (I’m not certain off the top of my head on costs) when they downsized it after the Olympics, and annual upkeep, etc.

At one time they discussed building it near what is now Atlantic Station. Can you imagine how great that’d be? Oh, well. Have to focus on making it better where it is, because it ain’t moving, and neither are the Braves.

It’s really not at all a bad place. And like I said, if this was 10 years ago, and there had not been so many beautiful parks built in the interim, Turner Field would be one of the palaces of the sport. When I first started covering ‘ball, I was covering games in about 12 dumps, from the Astrodome and Olympic Stadium to Riverfront, Veterans Stadium, Shea (oh, wait, that still there….)

By brian

January 13, 2007 02:19 PM | Link to this

who are these 2 young pitchers the orioles traded for and any chance they are stocking up young pitchers to make a run at LaRoche (which I would not do unless it made us better now - like LaRoche for Ray and Penn with Ray being flipped to Tampa with Escobar or Salty for Baldelli). Or maybe Hudson?

Amen to the NC BBQ - nothing, nothing beats the vinegar sauce/vinegar coleslaw!

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 02:24 PM | Link to this

Oh by the way, former Braves writer Bill Zach got robbed just outside old Riverfront Stadium (which was right next door to the new Cincy park) and former AJC writer Guy Curtright got a gun pulled on him last summer outside Oakland’s stadium.

A Chicago writer got mugged outside Turner Field in one of the first couple years it was open. The stuff happens. Neighborhoods around ballparks on Chicago’s South Side, in the Bronx, Queens, in D.C. _ there’s a lot of relatively unsafe places late at night. That’s life, though, isn’t it? Every place isn’t Disney World or safe-and-clean suburbia. Thankfully, in my opinion.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 13, 2007 02:26 PM | Link to this

Lisa, real classy thing to say, lady. You are top notch! You know those black ran cities are all f*ed up! More white people should work at Turner Field. Perhaps, you could go work there to get the ball rolling so to speak. I bet you’re ecstatic at the fact that this will be Andruw’s last season in Atlanta. Then, JS can work on getting rid of Soriano, B. Pena, and Renteria and the team will look just like you want.

Lisa, you are an ignorant jackass of a woman and I want you to respond. I can’t believe someone would actually post something so stupid and moronic.

I’m also a bit surprised that only DOB, MetroMan, and Lew actaully condemned that post.

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 02:28 PM | Link to this

Mike Sturm _ The fans in St. Louis are absolutely the best, in my opinion. They come in droves, they cheer their Cards like crazy, but they’re sophisticated about the game and appreciative of the other team when someone does something exceptional. No question about it, which is why I said it’s arguably America’s best baseball city. I think it is the best, though plenty of folks in Boston would certainly disagree.

It’s two entirely different atmospheres. Both great, but one just a lot more midwestern-polite and respectful of the opponent.

By beachcomber

January 13, 2007 02:30 PM | Link to this

dob - having not been to the nationals stadium, i’m going to take your word for it that is worse than our tropicana field. wow - worse than the trop! would have to agree with you about the marlin’s home as the worst - its only redeeeming benefit is you can walk up and get a far better seat than you could ever hope for at turner - thus we go there as often as we go to atlanta to see the braves. In these some thirty days before pitchers and catchers, i would be interested in your rating of spring training facilities at least in florida. seems there have been some nice upgrades plus some new stadiums in the last decade.

By Ray

January 13, 2007 02:32 PM | Link to this

Thanks Dave on the suggestion. My son being 12 said IF we go to Yankee stadium instead he will wear his Redsox hat and hopes he gets booed. How he became a sox fan I will never know. He likes braves and sox. Could be worst, could be a yank or met fan. The Rome, Ga ballpark is fabulous. Fun experience. I personally like Turner field. Not too many bad seats anywhere. Makes no sense with no outfield lights but since I am not the one on the field doesn’t bother me at all. And as far as downtown Milwaukee. When I was there for the allstar game. 4pm Saturday afternoon NO and I do mean NO resturant was open. Of course, my stomach was telling me it was 5pm. How can no resturant be open on a Saturday before 5pm. Sad but true.

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 02:35 PM | Link to this

FreeDenny, I’m with you on racing mascots and most of the other crap, though I think we might be in the minority. I look around me and most fans in the seats are cheering for that stuff, or seem to be.

Guilty pleasure _ I do like watching the original racing sausages in Milwaukee. That’s just plain funny, so ridiculous. But why does every ballpark have to copy every good idea from every other ballpark, until it all seems so redundant and ubiquitous, like mediocre chain restaurants in and around strip malls across America?

BARD, Methinks you’re right.

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 02:36 PM | Link to this

OK, I’m worn out. Gotta pay attention to this KU-Iowa State game, which is too close for comfort midway through first half.

By Metropolitan Man

January 13, 2007 02:38 PM | Link to this

When I first started covering ‘ball, I was covering games in about 12 dumps, from the Astrodome and Olympic Stadium to Riverfront, Veterans Stadium, Shea (oh, wait, that still there….)

Very funny DOB, that joke will last for only 2 more years, then Shea will be gone and Citifield will hopefully make your top ten on this list. The entry rotunda of Wilpon’s youth was at Brooklyn’s Ebbets Field, where the Dodgers played until 1957.

The idea was to incorporate a similar feature into a ballpark that would evoke the past while offering amenities missing from obsolete Shea Stadium, which opened in 1964. The stadium, designed by HOK Sport of Kansas City, will hold 45,000 people — 10,000 fewer than Shea — including standing room for 2,500 fans. HOK Sport is the same firm which drew up plans for the new Yankee Stadium and has designed Pittsburgh’s PNC Park, Baltimore’s Camden Yards, and Citizens Bank Ballpark in Philadelphia to name a few. We will have very affordable tickets, and we will have very expensive tickets, as we do now,” said David Howard, executive vice president of business operations.

There will be angled seats for improved sight lines, and contoured levels to bring fans closer to the field. (Still, State Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver jokingly worried about getting stuck behind a large-headed patron. “Hopefully we won’t have seats behind Mr. Met,” he said.)

Batters should enjoy having less foul territory; pitchers should like the outfield dimensions, which are a few feet shorter down the lines but deeper in the power alleys.

Centerfield will be 408 feet from home plate, slightly closer than the current distance of 410 feet. It will be 335 feet down the left-field line (compared to 338 at Shea Stadium), 379 feet to left-center (compared to 378), 391 feet to right-center (compared to 378), and 330 feet down the rightfield line (compared to 338).

Wide concourses that open to the field will allow fans to see the game while buying food or walking to a rest room, of which there will be many. (The number of women’s stalls will rise from 217 to 305.)

The brick on the exterior will resemble that at Ebbets, another nod to the vision of Wilpon, who was a star at Lafayette High School in Brooklyn and at 16 spent a summer pitching batting practice for the Dodgers.

It seems unlikely Shea will engender such nostalgia in the future.

Silver suggested a line might form when it is time for it to be razed, and invoked a Red Sox player who made a notorious error there in 1986.

“Bill Buckner called and asked if he could take the first crack at demolishing this stadium,” Silver said.

Another of the new ballpark’s intriguing features will be a rightfield porch that hangs into fair territory. Conceivably, a ball hit high enough to reach the second deck in right field could be caught by fans, even if it does not travel the 330 feet it would take to reach the rightfield wall below.

The number of luxury suites will rise from 50 to 58 in the new stadium, which will also feature a state-of-the-art video board and sound system. Parking would be facilitated, officials said, thanks to more points of entry.

According to Deputy Mayor Dan Doctoroff, the Mets will lose about 2,400 parking spaces when the construction starts, but he estimated they can get about 2,000 spaces back in areas surrounding the stadium. Ny Newsday.

Except for parking I’m looking forward to jumping up that list.

By SeattleBrave'sFan

January 13, 2007 02:38 PM | Link to this

DOB…Thanks again for the follow up info. I’m not too worried and haven’t been dissuaded. I’m looking forward to experiencing the city, the food, the drinks and some Brave’s home games again. I think we are coming for the Met’s series in September, which should be crazy but fun. Hopefully both teams are still competitive. Shrimp and grits here I come! There are some things about the south that I do miss!

By Metropolitan Man

January 13, 2007 02:43 PM | Link to this

Robert, I know you’ve been on this blog long enough not to let ignorant post take us down a path we dont want to touch….AGAIN. I appreciate your condemption, but Lisa condemped herself to ingnorance and stupidity a while ago. The peace has been broken but can always be restored!!!!

By Metropolitan Man

January 13, 2007 02:51 PM | Link to this

Sorry for prattling on so long.

My whole point is that I can pick my team or I can pick my nose, but unfortunately, I cannot pick my team’s nose.

By MBATL

January 13, 2007 02:52 PM | Link to this

Metropolitan Man: condemption? Is that a New York word? Oh well, your heart was in the right place. :)) Agreed 100%.

btw, I’ve felt much more threatened wearing the Colors (red and black) down at Grant Field for a UGA/North Ave. Trade School tilt than I ever did at the Ted.

By Metropolitan Man

January 13, 2007 02:58 PM | Link to this

You know where I was coming from MBATL, but that was kinda Gomer of me. Now do the rest.

By MBATL

January 13, 2007 03:12 PM | Link to this

RJIB, I think the reasons more people didn’t condemn the post was that (1) you know the person posting that is not named “Lisa” and is hiding behind what they perceive to be an anonymous way of spouting hatred; and (2) all that does is invites more race-baiting.

At least, those are the reasons I didn’t respond. But for the record, of course it’s absolute garbage and doesn’t represent (I hope and I believe) the feeling of most people who blog here.

If someone posted that Chipper Jones was an axe murderer, would you feel the need to refute them?

It really didn’t seem to merit a response, but your point is taken.

By Wendy

January 13, 2007 03:19 PM | Link to this

Chipper Jones IS an axe murderer. That’s what my daddy said.

By brian

January 13, 2007 03:22 PM | Link to this

Guy is a FORMER AJC writer?

By Lew

January 13, 2007 03:41 PM | Link to this

MetroDude-The new Citi Stadium will probably be an excellent field, but the Mets are still going to be playing there. Definitely adds a down side.

By Metropolitan Man

January 13, 2007 03:48 PM | Link to this

MBATL - did you know that I used to be in the popular New York singing group Village People? I was the “janitor” - the one with the mop and bucket. Yeah.

By Ace

January 13, 2007 03:52 PM | Link to this

Journalist Guy Cartright is gone? Where?

Responding to the guy from Cincy - absolutely right about Graeter’s Ice Cream, man. Loved the seasonal strawberry chip when living nearby in Louisville.

FYI on Fenway. A few years ago, while living in Boston (I’ve bounced around), I called the day of the game and was able to score a couple of nice tix to see the Braves in town. I think they hold a certain number of tickets for players or vips or something and release them at a certain point. No atmosphere like it I’ve ever been.

And again, let me plug the new minor league park in Greenville SC, modeled after Fenway. Really worth checking out.

By Metropolitan Man

January 13, 2007 04:02 PM | Link to this

Ace - can’t wait to go to Greenville SC.

I love bad coffee, fatty foods fried in lard and flea infested rooms at the motel 6.

By Growler

January 13, 2007 04:21 PM | Link to this

DOB, Fair enough, and you rock for responding to blogs to begin with. How many other sports writers/columnists do to your degree? I doubt many if any.

FWIW, I just shoulda never mentioned the mugging. Okay it can happen—but no one can tell me that place has really been built up anywhere near the way they envisioned it would be, 10 years ago. Last year, I read an article in your own paper about how the place outside the stadium with the mini-golf course had to close, because it was so poorly attended by fans. Is there ANYTHING else out there other than the KFC place? If there is, honestly, anyone, please tell! I have not explored the area other than to park in a great private lot behind the Lexus lot.

My point (about the stadium) though, I maintain. It is NOT a bad place at all. Far from it! Just that, for a “new” stadium it is very generic and bland… too “kid friendly” and not enough “fan friendly”.. and my opinion of that isn’t going to change. I mean, people complain about the food.. the BEST food (by far) there is in the “Lexus” level and you have to have a Lexus level ticket to get in there, even if you want to BUY (as in: pay your hard-earned money) for overpiced food, but at least better quality. How lame is that?!?!

As for sight lines, the upper deck behind home plate is great—but has anyone ever sat in the 200 section in the outfield? You might as well be sitting in Philips Arena. And the 400’s section in right field is the same. There’s just not much intimacy and warmth to the place—I actually like Atl-Fulco better. Depsite it’s cookie cutter layout it felt more like a home-field advantage.

And your idea to build a stadium near Atlantic Station—man that WOULD be gteat! Maybe in 15 years or so….

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 05:06 PM | Link to this

Brian, Ace: Guy retired; it became official at or near end of the year.

By bergian

January 13, 2007 05:12 PM | Link to this

DOB, so…you’ve been to all the parks eh?? Well that’s nice I guess, but I’ll have you know I have been to most of the Big lots in and around Atlanta…bet you are simply green with envy! ;)

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 05:16 PM | Link to this

Yeah, Growler, we’re spoiled on that Lexus-level food thing, too: Press pass gets us onto the Lexus level, so I can buy that good pasta, etc, though it’s so expensive I try to eat at home before I go….

VaTech’s about to beat UNC, giving the Hokies wins over Duke and the Heels in the same week. I like.

By Tim Kurkjian

January 13, 2007 05:17 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the rewrite. Owe you one.

T.

By Ron Roberts

January 13, 2007 05:18 PM | Link to this

I don’t know why folks gripe about how “generic” the new Busch Stadium is… here are the things I actually like about it…

1. TERRIFIC view of downtown and the Arch. Let’s face it, there’s probably no better backdrop in major league baseball; you could argue the bay at San Francisco or at PNC Park.

2. It lacks all the bells and whistles that most other new parks have to entertain folks away from the game; let’s face it, Cardinals fans come to see a game, not a ballpark and amusement rides around it. As a baseball purist, I can appreciate that.

3. They carry over some Busch Stadium touches that might go unnoticed to most, but I recognize. Remember how the reconfigured doughnut had the bullpens behind the outfield walls at left and right center? They mimicked it at the new Busch. I’m teling ya, if you watch highlights were a homer’s hit over the left-center or right-center field fence, you’d not notice the difference.

4. They brough over the old upper deck championship placards and placed them in their big concourse.

5. It has a “clean” look; in other words, the walls are no non-sense, the coolors are an homage to the old Bush’s most recent look, and there’s no monstrous big-screen eating up space in the outfield. That monster in Atlanta is like walking into a family room (living room) and seeing an entire wall eaten up by a big-screen TV. It’s not a “family” room if the TV is the focus; it’s a “TV” room.

6. Most of the seating’s on the lower bowl, and the upper deck’s not all that large, plus there are spots whre folks in nearby downtown buildings can peak in and see the field’s view. Nice touch.

Heck, I”m only getting this from what I can see online; I just think it’s a nice no-nonsense ballpark, with nice Cardinal touches payig homage to the team’s past champions and stars, all the while letting what goes on inside the bowl be about nothing but baseball.

I’m looking forward to going to that park, along with Wrigley and Fenway in the very near future. Been to Coors, Minute Maid, Turner, Fulton County and RFK; my favorite park among ‘em is Coors, but it’s too big and cavernous now that they don’t draw 60,000 a game.

But the gist of my post here is, give the new Busch a break; it’s not a theme park stadium, just a baseball park. And that makes it work for me and I’d bet ya Cardinal fans don’t miss a ferris wheel or carnival alley in it.

By wowbobwow

January 13, 2007 05:20 PM | Link to this

DOB, sorry i got busy. Did you get a chance to check out Centro-matic yet? To answer your previous questions regarding my favorite Texas songwriters. I am of the belief that Townes Van Zandt was a genius. Alejandro Escoveda is great for modern times. McMurtry I’m not as familiar with. I checked him out a little bit after that post, and my initial feeling is that he’s good but not quite my style. I like his blue-collar style and his political approach, clever lyrics, but doesn’t really do it for me melodically. He seems to be a “sing-speak” type of a guy, which is cool, but i prefer to hear a stronger melody. Like I said though, just my initial vibe. I really shouldn’t form any kind of solid opinion until I hear an entire record or live performance. Speaking of, I have already set the TiVo to record his Austin City Limits performance. Have you seen it yet? Is he more of an album guy or a live guy in your view? One last thing, we last spoke briefly about Doug Sahm. This guy was a serious Bad Azzzzzz!! He wasn’t known as a “songwriter” as much as just a totally masterful musician. A true Austin icon. He played every instrument with ease and every style of music as well. He’s got old 50’s R/B style records,Blues,Tex-Mex flavored stuff, etc etc. He put out many albums on smaller labels that have never been released onto cd. So, the best place to start is a compilation disk of his Mercury stuff entitled “The Best Of Doug Sahm & The Sir Douglas Quintet 1968-1975”. This release provides a very good overview of his recording career and many of his styles are represented. There are 22 tracks and even guest appearances by Bob Dylan and Flaco Jiminez on one track. His most intersting period in my opinion came from the time that he relocated to San Francisco to try and escape the oppresive atmosphere in Texas towards “pot-smoking hippies”. His songs from this period are very heartfelt and touching, the main theme being that he was a man displaced and exiled away from his home. Songs like “Texas Me”, “Wanna Be Your Mama Again”, and “I Don’t Want To Go Home” are examples. Also, a key element to this guy and why he ultimately left a mark is his cool blend of styles. Check out the tune “Mendocino” and you’ll hear a strange gumbo that blends elements of Tex-Mex with 60’s organ garage. It’s really cool!!!! Nothing else quite like it out there. One last thing,Are you a fan of Joe South?

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 05:23 PM | Link to this

For those wondering, Todd Pratt is one of 21 non-roster invitees to Yankees spring training. He turns 40 next month, and he’ll compete for the backup catcher job along with Wil Nieves, Raúl Chávez and Ben Davis.

By Greg in TN

January 13, 2007 05:25 PM | Link to this

Hey everyone…

DOB, another great blog. This one is close to my heart. I haven’t been to all 30, and there are some ballparks in cities that work travel sent me to in the offseason, so all I could do is snap photos (Chase Field, Coors Field, Petco Park and RFK all fall in this category), however a few years ago some friends and I took two summers and took a baseball trip. I’m working on getting all of my ballpark photos together for a site sometime in the future. Anyway, here’s my ranking of all the parks I have been in (and are still standing):

1 - Turner Field - I’m a homer and probably one of the few that actually wax nostalgic for the sound of Marshall Mann and the auxilliary scoreboard beyond the plexiglass fence, but I do love the new place, just wish it was named for Aaron. There is plenty to do, the ballpark does a very good job of honoring the past and there are lots of interactive games for the kids. I love the new Mitsubishi board in center and I like the music and entertainment between innings. Now, making the Ted better? Lower the concession prices, although the team does get points for allowing folks to bring items into the ballpark as long as the coolers do not exceed the dimensions outlined by the club. I’d also like to see the timing of the opening of the gates to the stadium to allow us to see more Braves BP too.

2 (tie) - Kauffman Stadium - This ballpark is just beautiful and it has aged very gracefully. The fountains in the OF are amazing. Everyone was very nice and accomodating. The 1985 World Series trophy sits in a display window in the lower concourse. I want to get back to this ballpark as soon as I can.

2 (tie) - PNC Park - This is a visually beautiful ballpark to watch a game. The stadium opens up into downtown Pittsburgh. I enjoyed walking over the Roberto Clemente bridge to get to the stadium. The usher we had was great and the atmosphere for watching the game was superb.

4 - Wrigley Field - Along with Fenway, which I haven’t been to yet, this is baseball history in it’s purest form. The ivy on the walls, take me out to the ballgame being sung during the 7th inning stretch. It isn’t fan friendly in that the aisles are wide and it doesn’t have the bells and whistles, but you give up all of that with the history that has been made within the confines. To me, it’s a fair swap.

5 - Oriole Park at Camden Yards - Beautiful ballpark. I enjoyed the walk along Eutaw street between the park and the B&O Warehouse. We had a little rain for the game I attended and the ushers seemed a bit gruff to me in their interactions with the fans which took a little bit out of my experience.

6 - Great American Ballpark - The power stacks, designed to look like steamboat stacks celebrate any Reds homer and the gap in the upper deck are unique trademarks of this new park. I agree with DOB, there is nothing across the Ohio river on the Kentucky side at which to look like there is in Pittsburgh and other places. I think a view of downtown Cincy beyond the outfield would look great. But I have to disagree with DOB on the chili. I’m a Skyline junkie when I am there.

7 - Miller Park - First retractable dome ballpark I’ve ever been in. Was there for Rollie Fingers bobblehead night and the place was packed. I like Bernie Brewer’s perch in left field and loved the sausage race after the sixth inning.

8 - U.S. Cellular Field - The White Sox have done quite a bit of renovations since this ballpark initially opened in 1991. The fundamentals area added in left field is a neat touch and I liked the wide concourses.

9 - The Metrodome - Too many bad memories of Kent Hrbek pulling Ron Gant’s leg off of first base and Leibrandt hanging a circle change to Kirby Puckett. The Hefty Bag is starting to show it’s age and with the Twins planning a new ballpark, it won’t be long before this place goes into baseball history along with it’s predecessor, The Met.

10 - Dolphins Stadium - Wow DOB, I think you deserved some type of achievement award for having to go to this place to cover baseball 81 times a year. The Marlins have tried to make the best of it, but this stadium is designed for football and playing baseball here is just as odd as it looked when the Rockies played at Mile High Stadium.

I didn’t rate ballparks that are no longer with us (Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium, Riverfront, and the original Busch Stadium). I hope to see a game at Fenway and at Yankee Stadium before the Bronx gets their new ballpark. Also want to see a game in Citizen’s Bank park and am eager to get out west sometime to see games out there.

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 05:37 PM | Link to this

wowbobwow: Centro-matic must be on one of the smallest and/or least-marketed labels going, since I couldn’t even find any of their CDs at Wuxtry Records. I know Patterson Hood loves ‘em, so maybe he could help them get their product into more stores. Man, don’t know that I’ve had such a problem finding a CD. None at the used places I go, either, and obviously not at the big chains. Oh, well, one of these days I’m gonna use some of these Itunes gift cards I’ve got, so hopefully they’re avaliable there. Until then, can’t tell you what I think of the band, since I’ve never heard ‘em….

Surprised you’re not a McMurtry guy, since he’s undoubtedly one of the best singer-songwriters going and you seem to be wired into that genre. Album or live guy? As opposed to what? I mean, he doesn’t make hit singles, no. But he’s great on both albums and live, and his live CD, “Live in Aught-Three,” was one of the best of 2005 in my book. Amazing live album. I like his voice, but yes, it’s different, and he does sorta sing-speak a bit.

I’m real big into Escovedo, one of my favorites. Saw him at The Earl here in Atlanta a year ago, in a great, great show. Also have his True Believers stuff, and liked some Rank and File, but like the solo stuff most.

Gonna get that Sahm greatest hits when I find it. Joe South is from Georgia, I believe. Don’t have his stuff.

By chipdip

January 13, 2007 05:44 PM | Link to this

Well, DOB, I am actualy from Atlanta. Was born in Atlanta and grew up in the Athens area, and I am a life long Braves fan. My dad started taking me to games when I was a baby, and have been in love with the game ever since! And, yes, for the true baseball fan who truly appreciates the game and its rich history, this is the ultimate park and experience all together. At least in my opinion.

There are a lot of ball parks I would love to visit, but I think first I will try for a return trip to Yankee Staduim before it is gone and then there is Cooperstown….now that is somewhere I need to go!

By beachcomber

January 13, 2007 06:14 PM | Link to this

have to agree with so many of the comments about the experience being part of the ballpark rating - for that reason, my #1 would be fulton co. my kids grew up there - saw their first major league games(other than spring training)there and both my special ladies (wife and daughter) cried the last time we passed the house that hank built before it was turned into a parking lot. There are better facilities but no better memories.

By wowbobwow

January 13, 2007 06:49 PM | Link to this

DOB, here’s where you can buy centro stuff…… http://www.undertowstore.com/centro-matic.php. you are correct to say that they are on a VERY small label.unfortunately that is the case with many great bands these days. the music industry is very bizarre right now and bands like centro-matic sometimes fall through the cracks.check out their website…. http://www.centro-matic.com/. here you will find a youtube video of them, you will get an idea from this song what they are all about. here’s a possible reason that you’ve had such a hard time finding them…..1.wuxtry is a cool record store, but VERY limited.most record stores are. you won’t find stuff there unless someone that works there is a huge fan.If you just like the place and want to give them your business, ask them to order stuff for you.personally, i like to order stuff directly from the bands,this meens the money is going directly to them. 2. MISRA is a very small label that is in transition right now. 3. folks that do buy centro cd’s keep them usually, hard to find them used. regarding McMurtry, I just don’t know enough about him I guess. I wouldn’t say that I’m all that wired into that genre though. I’m a musician that is all over the map, a little here a lot there. I play in the indie-rock circuit and have played classical,jazz,latin,african,brazilian,etc in my life. I currently live in SF. speaking of, go to Amoeba on your road trip to see the giants/braves this year. THAT is a record store. have you ever been? one in berkeley and LA also. back to McMurtry for a sec. when I asked album or live guy, what I meant was this…..ALL artists are recording atrists as well as live performers. However, MOST seemingly gravitate towards one or the other in terms of what they excel at. For example, when I was in high school in Atlanta, one of the hottest bands in town was Col. Bruce Hampton and the Aquarian Rescue Unit. I saw these guys maybe ten times, and I am definitely not a major jam band kind of guy. They were incredible though. They signed to Capricorn (Warner) and tried to make an album and they did and it was OK, but they just couldn’t capture onto tape what it was that they were all about. know what I mean? So, back to McMurtry. I guess a better way to ask is this……”Is he better live or on record” ? Sometimes, very rarely IMO, an artist excels at both. maybe that is the case with him. By the way, props to you for knowing about the True Believers. great band! Do a wikipedia search for Doug Sahm and Joe South. Joe South, IMO, was one of Atlanta’s greatest songwriters ever.

By Bruce

January 13, 2007 06:55 PM | Link to this

Dave: at 1:40 you wrote: It’s just a matter of taste, literally. I mean, when I say Eastern North Carolina pulled-pork BBQ with the vinegor sauce is absolutely the best BBQ in the world, I get villified by plenty of people out in Kansas City and Texas, where they have completely different styles of ‘que, and by some down here who swear by Dreamland in Alabama or Rendezvous in Memphis, etc.”

Here is my Q story, see what you think: Regarding BBQ… (during a slow-cook moment) My all-time favorite was cooked by my uncle, but he “let” me help. Uncle Buzz distributed RCA records all over Virginia for a living and knew Elvis personally.

Buzz’s BBQ method was trimmed Boston Butts, (leave some fat on) marinated two days in home-made hot cherry pepper vinegar, (great flavor from home-grown cherry peppers); very slow cook using cut in half oil tank cooker with 4-5 inch diameter fresh cut hickory log smoking fire in one end and the butts not over fire at the other end on the grate. Start fire around 5:45 am, once start-up coals are sustained, add green hickory logs for smoke, put the butts on the grate. Baste with pepper vinegar each time cooker top was off to add more green hickory, keep garden hose nearby in case too much flame; flame never touched the meat. Usually Q was ready around 3 pm, though we might start some pinching around 2 when we would roll the butts over and notice that some meat might be stuck to the grate and be wasted, so we did use tongs snag it to not burn fingers twice…

The butts held nicely til 5 PM when pulling, shredding, slicing, chopping with cleavers would begin. It was so tender, you could pull all the meat off the bone without using any utensils if your fingers could take the heat. My favorite was fresh-pulled dipped in pepper vinegar (no plate involved) with a cool-one, usually when I would set the cleaver down for a moment. We would leave some meat on the bone for the spectators who wanted to pull their own, keeping them away from the cleavers and chopping blocks. We would set aside the finest most tender portions for bragging rights amongst the uninitiated. We would have jugs of Sauer’s BBQ sauce (Richmond, VA), both mild and spicy, and some nice cole slaw on hand for those who felt they needed that, but it was not encouraged. Not sure what happened to that cooker, but it sure served us well.

Several friends also said their best-ever turkey was cooked on that cooker too… one year before Thanksgiving, we had at least eight turkeys going, used the hot pepper vinegar on them as well… The vinegar came from pickling the peppers a previous year. As time went on Buzz made a blend of hot cherry and jalepeno pepper, green pepper and tomato salsa (all home-grown ingredients) that was outrageously popular. It too was awesome on the Q as a topper; it helped keep the fresh-pulled Q from burning the roof of your mouth. The salsa was more pepper based than tomato based.

That’s my BBQ story. Bruce

By John Adcox

January 13, 2007 07:01 PM | Link to this

I’m not going to try to rank ballparks, because I’ve only been to Dodger Stadium, Fenway, Wrigley, Seattle, and, of course, Turner Field. Frankly, I loved them all, but The Ted will always be my favorite for one reason, and one reason only: no other stadium, no matter how charming or magnificent, will ever be my home town ball park.

Granted, I would love it more if it were easier to get to… I live a block from the East Lake MARTA station, an easy, easy walk, but I never spontaneously go to games the way I do to, say, theatre, concerts, or Thrasher games. Every time the idea occurs to me, I just roll my eyes thinking about parking or the shuttle, and turn on the old wide screen, knowing I can pop down to the good old Candler Park Market and pick up a six pack of quality beer and come out ahead with what I’d pay for just one at the game. Now, I PLAN to go and make about 20 games a year. But I’d do better if it were just slightly, slightly more convenient.

But it’s still mine, dang it, my home town park. And I love the place. Maybe even more than it deserves. Which, I suppose, is kind of what love is all about.

Here’s another recommendation for Six Feet Under. My wife and I adore the place. And the Milltown Arms and Carrol Street Cafe as well.

Going a little farther up the MARTA, we have the best Chinese east of Asia at Pyng Ho, the best barbeque (I know, I’m going waaaay out on a limb here) north of Macon and south of Flowery Branch at Maddy’s, the Brick Store Pub and Thinking Man Tavern, The Euclid Yacht Club, Pastries A Go-go and Thumbs Up for unbeatable breakfast, Chocolaté coffee, the Indy for coffee and books, Athens Pizza (where God eats), Mental Stimulation for more books, and…

Well, you get the idea.

Most people want to move on to a better place for their final reward as they move gently or otherwise into that good night. I have a terrible fear that Heaven may be a step down. Or maybe it’s the same, but everything is open 24 hours and has better parking.

John

By LeoBrown

January 13, 2007 07:26 PM | Link to this

DOB, thanks for your acknowledgment of my comments. It’s much appreciated. I am just a very passionate person about certain topics, and Atlanta is a big one for me. I’ve been visiting the city regularly since the age of 5, and am now 33. My first experience was in 1979. My cousin and I were out and about everyday, learning our way around town, using my Dad’s 8th & Durant home as a base. We hopped on MARTA buses daily, and walked miles in addition. We even rode the NEW subway once (East Line). After that long summer orientation, I knew then that there was something about the city I loved, even as a kid.

I lived there in ‘96, right out of college, and attended the Paralympic Games Opening Ceremonies in none other than the Olympic Stadium, now Turner Field. It was great fun volunteering during the Paralympics competition.

Growler, you’re right. The area hasn’t taken off as envisioned, but I don’t see that as a failure. Despite the grandest of plans, if there isn’t long-term vision and support, and lots of money behind the effort, the results will often fall far short.

Ten years ago the demand for intown living as we now know it was just beginning to pick up the pace. Highrise living was largely seen as very unlike Atlanta, something that would never take hold in large scale. LOL, so much for that gross error in the living desires of Atlantans.

The Olympics helped begin Summerhill’s rebirth, but could only take it so far before the world’s eyes were no longer focused on the city. The revitalization of certain close-in neighborhoods was slow going for a while. But now it’s kicking into a much higher gear, and I honestly believe that Summerhill can and will start to share more in the wealth that’s coming Atlanta’s way. There is great potential for all of that open land and parking space, and a grand boulevard could yet be created from the State Capital to Monument Grove.

I have driven much of the area within a 3mi radius of Turner Field, and there are very noticeable changes. Those on the west side of the Downtown Connector are not as extensive. It’s mostly east and south. As the growth and development continues, so hopefully will the feeling (and reality) of safety. Ultimately, though, we all need to be mindful of our surroundings at all times. Not everyone is our friend.

The stadium renovation and retrofit was somewhere in the vicinity of $60M, I believe. It was to be less initially, but the Braves wanted to do a more extensive reconfiguration, and also added Monument Grove using the columns which supported the temporary north bowl to frame the space. So, in effect, the Olympic Stadium footprint remains.

During the Olympics preparation frenzy, there was talk of building a rail extension (a people mover) down Hank Aaron Drive from the GA State station, but the costs were exhorbitant for such a short one-stop spur. Obviously, it never materialized, and I am actually glad it didn’t. It encourages pedestrian use instead, for those who don’t drive in or take the Braves Shuttle. They can hop off MARTA @ GA State and walk the mile trip to the gates.

Back to baseball talk, I hope to visit Comerica Park & Jacob’s Field this season, at the very least. Though I’ve never been inside, one of the most dramatic looking parks is Kauffman Stadium in KC. It just comes out of nowhere when you’re approaching from the north or west. And it’s very impressive once you exit the interstate and drive alongside it. A great bowl, for sure!

DOB, thanks for posting this ranking. It sure has gotten people to talking, errrr, blogging! It’s been an interesting weekend topic. Hats off to you!

LeoBrown

By wowbobwow

January 13, 2007 07:29 PM | Link to this

DOB, sorry that first link won’t work with the period that I accidentaly added on the end. now try http://www.undertowstore.com/centro-matic.php.

By wowbobwow

January 13, 2007 07:38 PM | Link to this

damn, i did it again. stupid punctiation! ok…….. http://www.undertowstore.com/centro-matic.php

By Glass Half Full

January 13, 2007 07:47 PM | Link to this

Anyone else love those Coors Lite commercials where the jackasses are asking questions to Mike Ditka, Bill Walsh, Dick Vermeil (sp?) and others?

By Jessie Outlar

January 13, 2007 07:54 PM | Link to this

Whoa! Do you remember what happened to me outside Atlanta Stadium? And who would pull a gun on Guy Curtright?

By Brian

January 13, 2007 08:13 PM | Link to this

DOB- This is maybe your best post ever. You don’t need to write for a while because of the feedback on this. Thanks for getting us thru the winter. How about some more best of posts- Braves memories, fave Braves of the eightees, etc. One thing about the parking, and I might regret sharing this, but I always park for free in front of the govt. buildings surrounding the Capitol. Its free and secure (numerous security officers always on patrol). I’ve calculated it to be a mile from the stadium- perfect if you’ve had a couple of beers and want to walk it off before driving. When I leave the stadium and see those who paid $20 to park and are fighting traffic I can’t help but laugh. I started parking in the govt. area when I lived in Buckhead and have done itwhile staying in other parts of the city and have had very little -if any- traffic problems leaving. I’m usually on the interstate within a minute.Again, I might regret sharing this.

By brian

January 13, 2007 09:23 PM | Link to this

The Yankees have to hope Posada does not get hurt. That is a sorry list of backup catchers. Yankees sure have a lot of question marks this year. Rotation is an ace short (unless Roger signs of course), no 1B since Giambi is a DH, and age - can Mussina, Pettit, Jeter, Damon and all keep producing at a top level.

By David O'Brien

January 13, 2007 09:56 PM | Link to this

Yeah, you’d think with a payroll over $200 mill you’d have the best of backup catchers, huh? By the way, Braves will put out an updated list of non-roster invitees soon. Unlike most teams, they don’t even announce most minor-league contract signings individually, like the Trey Hodges thing or Willie Harris earlier this winter. They do a multi-player press release when they feel like doing it….

Bruce, you made me very, very hungry with that BBQ post. And envious with the uncle who knew The King….

Adcox, where’s Maddy’s? I want to go there right away and try that BBQ. I think I’ve driven by it before, but not sure….

Wowbobwow, Amoeba’s about the best record store I’ve been in. Went to the one in L.A. (Hollywood) couple times, and to that great movie theatre next door to see Collateral on that huge screen in the Cinerama dome. Amoeba is amazing, and the eclectic group of people shopping there near midnight was quite entertaining itself….

My man at Ella Guru will order CDs for me, provided he can get it. I’ll see if his distributor can get Centro-matic….

Brian, I doubt you’ll regret it for one reason: People just don’t like to walk if there’s even the slightest hint of possible danger. But I would think that in the minutes after a game, there’s got to be so many people out there, I would think you’d feel pretty safe. I don’t know. Me, I walk all over the place when we’re on the road….

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 13, 2007 09:57 PM | Link to this

Yeah, Brian, I have to agree about the Yankees. Everyone is still picking them over the Red Sox but this may be the year the Red Sox win the division. The Yanks rotation isn’t really that good. Pettite and Pavano are question marks because of injury. Can Wang repeat his performance of last year? How much does Mussina have left?

You look at the Red Sox’s rotation and it is definitely better than the Yanks. The Sox’ bullpen is also better depth wise at this point. The Yanks also have an issue at 1st. I know they signed Mikenewicz (sp?) but will he get it done. Not to mention I don’t think things will be any better with A-Rod this year. The guy just doesn’t belong there. I think the Yanks will live to regret not trading him. He is doomed for failure because the fans hate him and Jeter hates him.

By MEB

January 13, 2007 10:05 PM | Link to this

Count me as a homer because I think the Ted deserves to be in the top ten. I’ve been to a bunch of them and I like the friendly confines of Turner Field.

Oh, check this out: The Los Angeles Dodgers will give fans something to chew on next season: all-you-can eat seats.

The right-field pavilion at Dodger Stadium will be converted into the special section, giving around 3,000 fans as many hot dogs, peanuts, popcorn, nachos and sodas as they want.

Tickets will sell for $35 in advance and $40 on gameday, and some items at the concession stand aren’t in play — beer, ice cream and candy will be sold separately at regular prices.

Read the whole disgusting thing at

By TLJ

January 13, 2007 10:12 PM | Link to this

I think it will be a close race between the yankees and red sox, but I think the yankees will win it.

By TrainWreckBystander

January 13, 2007 10:52 PM | Link to this

Nice column.

Someone should do this for all the minor league parks.

By The Grinch

January 13, 2007 11:59 PM | Link to this

Who would pull a gun on Guy Curtwright? A person desirous of a multi-paragraph blog/column, perhaps. :-) Really, though; glad he made it out ok. Brian Billick coached his game against the Colts as if he were Marty Schottenheimer. Gave it away in the 3rd quarter punting on 4th and 2 from the Colts 42. When, exactly, did he imagine he was going to get a better chance given the circumstance? Is he the first coach ever not to watch game tape of his opponent? I was very upset, ‘till I saw the next game. Saints and Colts were perfectly matched. Chess game between great coaches the whole way through. Then, all of a sudden with 1:56 to go in the game and a gassed defense that couldn’t have stopped Kate Moss, the great (and I really mean it) Andy Reid suddenly punts on fourth down, essentially just handing the game to the Saints with no possibility of doing anything but losing with that move. No, sorry, this won’t do. That made me understand Billick’s decision a bit better earlier. Two good to great coaches don’t hang in playoff games until the last second and then just up and hand the games away TO THE TEAMS THAT FIT THE BETTER STORYLINES without either a fight or common logic unless something very sinister is going on. Hope I’m wrong, and two great coaches just had an attack of the dumbass at the last critical moment at the perfect time for the NFL in the same evening simultaneously for no apparent reason. That’s what I’d really prefer to believe.

By JMP

January 14, 2007 12:07 AM | Link to this

You have the placements for the Chicago ball parks exactly reversed. First, Wrigley only has about 10,000 seats where fans can see the field. If you are not in the first 15 rows of the lower deck or the first 5 rows in the upper deck, about the only thing you will see at Wrigley is poles that hold the thing together, ushers selling bad beer and over priced food, and the guy in front of you talking on his cell phone (a Cub tradition!) Not to mention the lack of bathrooms for men and women, no parking, and a public transportation system that may have been adequate in the 1920’s but is not up to the challenges of the modern day demographics of the city.

US Cellular, on the other hand offers unobstucted views, ample parking, modern public transportation, modern score board, no wait in the bathroom, wide selections at the concession stand and a family environment.

I think your comments are more of a point of view from the press box and not that of the average paying customer in the seat.

By John Adcox

January 14, 2007 01:07 AM | Link to this

Maddy’s is on Scott Blvd in Decatur. It used to be a Hictory House, I think, so more points for turning out real taste. ;-) They have real Blues music at night, and a beer special for around $2— usually something decent, like a Sweetwater or Guinness. The menu is, um, limited. No baked potatoes or anything fancy like that. But the Georgia style barbeque delivers.

I have McMurty’s Childish Things. What else is worth a listen? Did you check John Stewart, by chance?

By John Adcox

January 14, 2007 01:12 AM | Link to this

DOB, speaking of minor league signings, I’ve been hearing rumors that the Braves might take one of those low-risk passes at Bruce Chen, seeing that the man he didn’t get along with is now in Baltimore. He pitched poorly last year, in (guess where?) Baltimore of all places, but was a demon in winter ball. Anything to that? It’s been on XM and a couple of the blogs….

By John Adcox

January 14, 2007 01:23 AM | Link to this

I meant to say that I have Childish Things IN ADDITION TO Live in aught-three. Anything else stand out?

By David O'Brien

January 14, 2007 01:57 AM | Link to this

Adcox, I haven’t talked to anyone about Bruce Chen yet, so I don’t know if there’s anything to it. I’d heard Twins, Rockies and Giants, a couple weeks back, but this would be first I’ve heard of any Braves rumored interest. If he’s cheap, why not? However, his agent is Scott Boras, and Chen made $3.8 mill last year, so I wouldn’t bet on it….

I know exactly where Maddy’s is, it’s the place I was thinking about when i asked (just around the corner from the old bowling alley and close to decatur medical, etc). Didn’t know they had BBQ, but had heard the blues was solid….

No, haven’t checked out John Stewart (musician, not TV host/comedian). I’ve still got a couple dozen unopened CDs from my spree when Tower was closing, and I got the great new Ron Sexsmith CD last week and a reissue of President Yo La Tengo. Plus I’m playing this Tom Waits triple-CD thing a lot, and also the Paul Simon CD that came out last year that I’m only now really playing more and liking more.

McMurtry’s best CD (other than the live one) is probably “Where’d You Hide the Body,” which includes the songs Levelland, Fuller Brush Man, Down Across the Delaware, and the great title track.

By Jeff S

January 14, 2007 03:29 AM | Link to this

I agree with the majority of your rankings DOB, before I read the list I figured you’d put The Ted somewhere between 13-15. This is only my 2nd year living in Atlanta, but I’ve been a Braves fan for quite some time. And, I can unequivocally say that Turner Field is by far and away the nicest park I’ve been to. My rankings: 1. Turner Field 2. Ballpark at Arlington 3. Memorial Stadium 4. The Astrodome 5. Dolphin Stadium (or whatever they call it now) 6. Tropicana Field

By Tom

January 14, 2007 03:30 AM | Link to this

At Fenway, for every African American I saw, I probably saw 50 red headed women. I don’t think any African Americans worked any of the vending or concessions. Did that make them better? Uh, no. I have never had a problem with the service, atmosphere or friendliness of people at Turner, black, white, yellow, red, purple or green. You have to judge each person based on that individuals character and attributes. Check racist comments at the door.

I like The Chop House, I like the Club Seating in the Lexus level. The pre-game festivities and atmosphere inside the ballpark do not detract. They make up for the lack of neighborhood businesses.

Parking empties easily at Turner. It is just as easy to get out of the parking lot as it is to wait in line to board a bus and wait in line at the five points marta station on your way to Lindberg.

You parked in a surrounding neighborhood and are surprised you were robbed at gunpoint? Were you parking a Bimmer or Mercedes or some toher overpriced car you got on a lease that tells the world you have more money than sense? Anyhow, a group of 10 of us walked from around Cabbage town, to the game and back wihtout indicident. Still, a crazed homeless guy threatend me on Broylston Street in the Backbay of Boston not too far from The Boston Commons. Very nice, yuppie part of town. If I had not ignored him, it probably would have ended in me being a victim of assault and battery. Bad things can happen anywhere.

More restaurants/bars around Turner would be nice.

Paid a scalper $145 for my ticket to Fenway. Monday night game vs. Cleveland Indians. Good view. No problem with the fans. Though, I did not park the Volvo XC70 rental with NY tags and took the T instead. The neighborhood bars/restaurants around Fenway are over-rated. Not as many or as nice as some bloggers have led you to beleive. Wrigley’s are much better.

But, this rating was about the venues, not the surrounding areas. Still would rank Fenway and Wrigly way way donw the list.

Old Comsiky Park was pretty cool with the picnic seating at the outfield level.

By long-time, long-distance fan

January 14, 2007 06:25 AM | Link to this

I think you underrate Turner and overrate Arlington, Philadelphia, and Houston. Agree with you on Pittsburgh — a terrific place — and SF — best in the bigs. Finally, as bad as RFK is, there is nothing in baseball anywhere that is worse than that mess in Oakland. Even the Hefty bags in Minneapolis beat the unsanitary Oakland conditions.

By Richard Cory

January 14, 2007 08:23 AM | Link to this

Grinch: I believe that coaches’, even outstanding ones, just get so blanking conservative sometimes, that it is beyond rational explanation. They get so indoctrinated in the old ‘play good defense, and let the other guy mess up’ philosophy that it borders on insane. Obviously, they have been successful, in their method, but it is just so refreshing to see a coach with the guts like the Boise St. guy, step up to the table and roll the dice. Agreed, both coaches blew their final chance at winning, but I’ll bet they still won’t change a thing with the way they handle that pressure situation.

By Jeff R

January 14, 2007 10:23 AM | Link to this

Got to agree with DOB’s ratings, especially 1-6. Been to most of his top parks. Turner Field is a good park but it’s location is “So What?” The top six have restaurants, bars, clubs and other attractions within walking distance.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 14, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this

DOB, do you know this dude who runs the Bucco Blog. Apparently, it is an “approved” blog by MLB.com. Now, this joker is saying that he is betting the LaRoche trade will be announced this week. He says that the Pirates have been waiting for the ownership change to take place and that the “new” ownership has said all along they have an ace they will pull out when the time is right or something to that effect. This Bucco Blog guy thinks it is probably LaRoche.

The only problem I have with that is I can’t see JS playing some publicitiy game and waiting to announce a trade until the Pirates want to make a “splash”. I could be wrong, but JS to me isn’t one for that type of grandstanding.

By TommyB

January 14, 2007 11:31 AM | Link to this

While I don’t really have a Top 10 in Minor League Ballparks, I do have a Top 2.

I highly endorse the Asheville Tourists home field, right in downtown Asheville. Fairly new, great food choices, beautiful to look at, and great ambiance.

For Number 2, I would put Savannah’s SandGnats homebase. Absolutely, a gem, in all ways… and right downtown.

I have yet to go to Rome (always sold out when I get the urge), so I can’t speak to that place yet.

Minor League really REALLY Rocks, IMHO.

PS - I know Greenville is now home to a Red Sox team and I think they got a new stadium. Anyone confirm that?

By journalist jimmy smith

January 14, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

a jimmy smith impostor has again been on this blog posting as journalist jimmy smith. who could it be? now, this blog has attracted many new bloggers and dob is the king of ajc blog hosts with certainty. noted wurlitzer, wendel wurlitzer has even blogged here recently. things are looking good for dob with the wurlitzer if dob can work toes into one of his upcoming posts. the toe column last year put dob over the top. now, baseball … journalist cannot wait for the news that pitchers and catchers have reported. then, all will be right with sports. now, pie … journalist is making an effort to drop a few pounds and has switched to light cheese and is refraining from all pies. this is very difficult - especially with all the pie talk of late on this blog (excludes midget pies, scalp’em). now, sea life … does death in the georgia aquarium mean floating to the top or dropping to the bottom? and where do you go to flush a 12 ton shark?

By TommyB

January 14, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this

To Lisa from 9:18am yesterday…

You are in serious need of help. I hope you find it in time… Tomorrow’s holiday could provide a nice time to do some self-contemplating.

Here’s a link for you.

By David O'Brien

January 14, 2007 11:47 AM | Link to this

Robert (JIB), never met or heard of the guy who writes Bucco Blog. I haven’t a clue who he is. The latest LaRoche twist comes the week that 24 debuts with its two-night, four-hour season opener. Coincidence? We think NOT!

By lee

January 14, 2007 11:56 AM | Link to this

good stuff dave, but as a former south floridian i dont think you were nearly as hard on dolphin stadium as you could have been. but leave the mermaids alone, ok? watching them saved me a trip to biscayne blvd.

By David O'Brien

January 14, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

By the way, it’s only natural to be a bit tougher on the place you’re at all the time, since you obviously notice the flaws in a place after hundreds of visits and perhaps overlook the flaws of a comfortable place you only visit once a year in nice weather….

Admittedly, I counted against Turner Field the surrounding neighborhood (lack of bars, restaurants, hotels in immediate vicinity) and lack of accessibility and downtown view from majority of seats, more so than I counted against other places I only visit one or a few times a year. And by the way, within a mile or two of Turner Field there are some absolutely beautiful old homes that have been restored and revitalized, some neighborhoods that are as charming as any in the South. Some of the homes around Grant Park, Ansley Park, etc, are just incredible, with the old-south architecture (hey, I’m no real estate writer; I don’t know the vernacular), the huge porches, big canopy trees, etc.)

But I still don’t think I’d have ranked it any higher than perhaps 10-12. If you swap my No. 8 (Houston) and No. 10 (Cleveland), the first nine ballparks, to me, are clearly better overall experiences than Turner Field, whether from the baseball-cathedral atmospheres (Wrigley, Fenway) that us old-school folks seem to appreciate, or the timeless quality (Dodger Stadium), or better mix of retro-stadium qualities with modern amenities and/or better views that the other, new parks in that would-be first nine provide.

Houston, I’ll admit if it weren’t for the extreme comfort level, easy accessibility (walk from several hotels, and park right next to stadium if you drive) and great sitelines (I walked around the entire stadium and checked it out), good food, and gorgeous Texas women, I might rank the retractable-roof stadium a bit lower.

Wait a minute _ that’s a lot of pluses. Nevermind.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 14, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

DOB, is 24 not the best show on television. I have been waiting eight months for this night. My favorite show on television.

By David O'Brien

January 14, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

Lee, I hear ya. Raze the stadium, save the Mermaids?

Hopefully they’ll finally get a new ballpark down there and won’t feel the need to provide so much eye candy to distract us from the depressing empty orange seats and hideous walls of ugly, clashing walls of advertising signage.

By Chris

January 14, 2007 12:12 PM | Link to this

I agree with most of your list except a few, notably Wrigley. I don’t care about history, the only thing Wrigley has going for it is the neighborhood. Otherwise the ballpark itself is falling apart, too small, terrible concessions, disgusting restrooms, and frankly boring. And unless you sit between the bases or in the outfield, the view of the game is horrible. I lived in Chicago for 30 years and now have been in Atlanta for 7 years and would love a park similar to Turner up on the northside of Chicago. During the 2003 NLDS, many, many Cubs fans in ATL said they would also love a park like Turner to replace Wrigley. The perception is that Wrigley is sold out all summer long and all those folks are Cubs fans. I meet more tourists at Wrigley nowadays than Chicago area born Cubs fans. Its gonna happen eventually, I say do it now rather than later!

By Lew

January 14, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

Journalist Jimmy-Rumor central has it that the Wurlitzer will be presented on February 16 in Orlando. I think I read it on Bucco Blog.

By David O'Brien

January 14, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

No, Chris, Wrigley has the entire atmosphere of the ballpark going for it. That’s one of the few places where I do regularly sit in the stands, for the final innings, near the dugout (because you have to go through the crowds from the pressbox down the ramps to get to the clubhouse, and you don’t want to get caught in a human bottleneck trying to get down for postgame interviews when the crowd stays until the end of the game).

Anyway, sitting there in the stands, in the sun, with that ivy on the walls, and a cool breeze coming off the lake, and without hundreds of ads in the outfield and ringing the stadium, and with the packed crowds and smell of concession food and the bullpen only an arm’s length from fans … my ranking has very little to do with the neighborhood, really. It’s the ballpark. Not the lack of urinals or the crowded concourses or crumbling sections of concrete beneath the stands. No, the ballpark. A real ballpark, virtually unchanged for decades and decades. I like it. A lot.

By Greg in TN

January 14, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB,

Just a curiousity question. I took the Turner Field tour in November (I had taken a tour during Bravesfest one year that did not include the pressbox), and am wondering from your standpoint, what is the best ballpark for working press and which one is the worst? This would be taking to account nothing but the press facilities themselves. I’ve heard Skip, Pete, Don and Joe over the years give their opinions on various stadiums at times and am just curious about what you’d say.

By David O'Brien

January 14, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

Only thing I’ll say about LaRoche is same thing I’ve said for weeks _ I think Braves would be crazy to trade him for anything less than two impact guys, and a trade to Pirates would only make sense if they believed Gonzalez would stay healthy and could be their closer if Wickman gets hurt or after he leaves, and if they think Chris Duffy is good enough to replace Andruw IF and when Andruw is gone. Because I don’t think the Pirates are going to trade any of their good young starting pitchers, and one of them is the only other Pirate I’d take along with Gonzalez, who’s obviously a must-get in any LaRoche trade with them….

Closer we get to spring training, less likely I think a deal is. I’d be surprised at this point to see it happen. Not absolutely shocked, but surprised….

Meanwhile, Ron Villone is still out there, the veteran lefty reliever apparently not being pursued hard by the Yankees. If he stays unsigned, you gotta think the price tag could possibly become affordable as we move closer to opening of spring training….

By David O'Brien

January 14, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

Oh, and Chris, know this: Wrigley Field isn’t coming down for a long time. Are you kidding me? The park is an absolute cash cow for Tribune Co. What games you attending that aren’t nearly full? Perhaps when Pittsburgh’s in town? Check the Wrigley attendance figures. They rank near the top despite the small park and tradtionally mediocre team. And if they’d show you the figures for the beer sales, you’d know why Wrigley Field isn’t going to be replaced anytime soon.

Sorry, but you’re just wrong. Wrigley, despite last year’s bad team and the tiny park, ranked FOURTH in the NL in average home attendance at 39,040, behind only the Dodgers (46,402), Cardinals (42,589) and Mets (43,327), who all play in stadiums far, far bigger and who all had teams far, far better than the Cubs last season.

Don’t come without your facts straight, bro.

By David O'Brien

January 14, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

Greg in TN, strictly for working conditions, comfort and accessibility, proximity to field and clubhouse, view and amenities in pressbox, etc.: In the National League, Houston is best; Cincinnati, San Diego, Arizona and Colorado are all really good; most others are average to above-average; St. Louis, Wrigley, Washington and Pittsburgh are terrible.

By KC

January 14, 2007 01:00 PM | Link to this

DOB: What would say were/are the worst baseball stadiums of the modern era?

I attended a game once at the Kingdome in Seattle (RIP)… pretty crappy place. Good riddance. I only say Olympic stadium on television, but from what I see and hear, it would have to be near the top of the list of worst baseball stadiums, wouldn’t it?

By KC

January 14, 2007 01:04 PM | Link to this

NEW YORK (AP) — “Postseason savior Oliver Perez and the New York Mets agreed Friday to a one-year contract worth $2,325,000.”

DOB: Do you have any idea who wrote this? Does the AP have a drug testing policy “SAVIOR”???????? OLIVER PEREZ??????

By David O'Brien

January 14, 2007 01:32 PM | Link to this

KC _ yes, the Big O (Olympic Stadium) had only one saving grace: You could get there without stepping outside if it was really, really cold. If you stayed at the Marriott, you could catch the subway from the station below the hotel (elevator down from the hotel lobby), then take it right to the stadium station and go up the steps, walk down a long tunnel and into the stadium. voila. never outside. (though in summer in Montreal, weather’s usually beautiful. Hated the stadium, but absolutely loved the city. miss going there, for sure.)

Oh, and to Greg in TN: I should’ve included Shea in the group of stadiums that are worst for press. Great PR staff, but conditions are beyond their control. Terrible cramped pressbox, smelly freight elevator is only way down besides the series of ramps (which I always end up taking), and when it rains, you’d better hope you’re not assigned a seat beneath one of the many leaks in the pressbox, or you’ll be wiping off your keyboard all night and hoping it doesn’t get wet when you have to step away.

That said, all in all, not a bad gig, folks. I don’t expect a bit of sympathy, because I know I’d have none if the roles were reversed.

By Greg in TN

January 14, 2007 01:55 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the insight DOB. Surprised to see that PNC isn’t as delightful for the press as it is for the general public, but again, sometimes those kind of things tend to happen.

I also agree with DOB on the idea that Wrigley isn’t going anywhere. The Tribune is making money hand over fist at Wrigley and even with some of the concrete issues (I spent some time under the first base stands looking up at the netting during a 2005 game with the Pirates and have some pics of it), I don’t see that anything will be done other than any work deemed necessary to restore the structural integrity to the ballpark. There has been some rumblings that the Tribune may sell the Cubs to improve the company’s bottom line (sound familiar Time Warner fans?), however with all of the offseason spending, it sounds as if the Tribune wants to keep the Cubs and make improvements elsewhere.

KC, if the New York press thinks Perez was a postseason savior, I say let him. Glavine and John Maine both pitched better in the NLCS than Perez. His only victory in the series came because he was staked to 11 runs by the Mets offense.

By Greg in TN

January 14, 2007 02:02 PM | Link to this

It’s all good DOB. We all live vicariously through you. I am willing to bet that the job isn’t nearly as wonderful and ideallic as some might think with all of the travel, deadlines, dealing with some really spoiled prima donnas and tight lipped club officals, but I also wouldn’t hesitate trading for a day just to see what it’s like. Can’t say I’m too surprised about Shea. I’ll be interested to see what the new ballpark there looks like once it is open.

By MEB

January 14, 2007 02:46 PM | Link to this

Speaking of minor league baseball y’all need to come down to Montgomery, AL and see the Biscuits. During the spring and summer of the 2006 baseball season, 27-year-old filmmaker Cass Sapir visited all 189 major league and minor league ballparks, making him possibly the first human being to accomplish the feat in a single season. The trip, much of which was completed with his twin brother Tim, raised roughly $30,000 for The Jimmy Fund, a Boston-based charity.

Baseball America’s Alan Schwarz interviewed Sapir following the conclusion of his trip. In response to an inquiry of the best ballpark in all of the Minor and Major Leagues, Sapir unhesitatingly named Montgomery Riverwalk Stadium, home of the Montgomery Biscuits. [Read the entire article] (http://www.biscuitsbaseball.com/pressreleases/102706.html) I know they are a farm team of the Devil Rays but its lots of fun to watch a game in a great venue on a nice summer day. Besides… they do great promos like shooting biscuits into the stands.

By Jason Feaser

January 14, 2007 02:51 PM | Link to this

I bet over half of you “Ballpark Know-It-Alls,” never even been to Fenway Park. You’re all isolated down south and probably never ever traveled above the Mason Dixon line. Just because most of you Brave’s fans are jealous of the Red Sox Nation, or your a Yankee’s fan, dont bad mouth a place you never been to. I’ve been to Fenway over 30 times, and never have I seen a rat. The atmosphere is the best in baseball. And for the person who said the Boston accents are annoying, we feel the same way about ya’lls accents in the south. Oh and another thing, I live near Philly, and I have NEVER heard of a Philly fan killing another fan of an opposing team. Get out of your southern shell, and come up here for a game. Its safe. GO SOX and PATS!

By Ron

January 14, 2007 03:06 PM | Link to this

DOB, you said earlier about maybe getting Ron Villone, Why the hell did we sign Tanyon Sturtze, we could have put that money plus a little extra on Ron Villone. Why did we sign Tanyon when we needed another Lefty in the Pen. You think JS is regretting signing Sturtze?

By Lew

January 14, 2007 03:07 PM | Link to this

Jason-I’ve never seen a rat any time I was at Fenway, but I did see a hole in the asphalt of the concessions concourse that you could lose a golf cart in.

By MEB

January 14, 2007 03:43 PM | Link to this

Aw shucks Jason… I hear tell Filly fans throw snowballs at Santy Claus. And speekun of rats I hear theres a biggun that owns them Yankeys. Now wassup with this Red Sox curse, the curse of the Babe? Has that curse been renewd fur anuther 100 years?

By WhoCaresWhoIAm

January 14, 2007 04:54 PM | Link to this

Seattle? Most beautiful? You must have stayed at the Olympic Hotel and took a cab to Safeco. As one who lived and worked there (92-06), downtown is okay only. Near the ball park is a homeless, crime riden dump. Bums, thieves, riots, illegals lining the streets. Right, Seattle. Sure.

By Robert

January 14, 2007 04:59 PM | Link to this

At 330AM, Tom said “Paid a scalper $145 for my ticket to Fenway”

and yet, in the same post, he accused someone else of having more money than sense

Mr Pot, meet Mr Kettle

By Metroplitan Man

January 14, 2007 05:29 PM | Link to this

Well if you didnt know DOB, METS announcers have a good time laughing at out of town press covering the visiting teams. I’ve heard them have a good laugh during rain delays because the home announcers booth is properly equipped to keep you dry and comfrotable while the visiting booths are just crumbling away. I dont blame them now, let it go to rot until Citifield is erected. Until then , Keith Hernandez and Ron Darling are getting the last laugh. But you are correct, the press level is Bankhead material.

KC, if you lose a bonifide ace and a sub .500 pitcher holds the other team to 1 run in a deciding game seven LCS, then he can run with savior until he loses his next game. Its called a NEW YORK Minute!!

By r zimmerman

January 14, 2007 06:49 PM | Link to this

The baseball season over, management was planning for the spring,

The offices were quiet, no deals were made, the cell phones didn’t ring.

The clubhouse was deserted and the bullpen was shut down,

Any scribe with any sense had already left town

But he was sittin’ in the suburbs, bloggin’ like the DOB of Hearts.

He posted on the internet “Here’s a list of stadiums,” he said,

But Braves fans just whined about their chances in the season up ahead.

So he called up mister Bobby Cox and he asked him with a grin,

“Could you kindly tell me, Bobby, when spring training does begin?”

Then he hitched down to Kissimmee, thumb out like the DOB of Hearts.

By jed

January 14, 2007 07:07 PM | Link to this

once upon a time we dressed so fine threw the mets a dime in our prime, didnt we?

By Robert

January 14, 2007 07:15 PM | Link to this

““Could you kindly tell me, Bobby, when spring training does begin?”

Cox has no clue when spring training begins. All he knows is that one day they open the barn door, pull on the bit, load him onto an airplane, and next thing he knows he’s in a warm place and Chippey and Andruwey and all the rest except Reitsmey (who has been throwing real well and only made one bad pitch all last season) are there with carrots and sugar cubes

Meanwhile, Marty Coxenheimer’s Chargers are goin down

By Chris

January 14, 2007 07:20 PM | Link to this

Sorry Dave, I do know my facts and I do know that Wrigley is in the top every year in attendance. After re-reading my last post what I ment was that Wrigley IS selling out all summer long but there is a good amount of people in the ballpark that are tourists. I have attended 20 Cub games in the last five years at Wrigley, and most people around me were asking where to go out after the game because they weren’t from Chicago. My point with that observation is that Cub fans don’t go to Wrigley as much as it may seem so why would it matter to real Cub fans if Wrigley was there or some other newer ballpark. It would probably get rid of all the tourists and there would be a true Cub fan atmosphere. Are you from Chicago? I grew up there for 30 years and most people I know who I grew up with and went to school with would prefer a new ballpark. They don’t go to as many games each new season as in the past because they say they just aren’t excited about Wrigley (or the Cubs) anymore. Of course if they start winning that will all change. I went to a White Sox - Cubs game two years ago at US Cellular and I overheard numerous Cub fans saying how much they actually liked “The Cell”. I don’t disagree that Wrigley is a cash cow for the Tribune Co. Anyway, I see that you and I differ on what is a good experience at the ballpark. I saw a few other posts from folks who agree with me about Wrigley.

By chewy

January 14, 2007 07:33 PM | Link to this

At Wrigley, one can always find tasty gum stuck on the seat bottoms. Ah, the amenity.

By David O'Brien

January 14, 2007 07:37 PM | Link to this

CHRIS: Hey, I know there are plenty who agree with you about Wrigley, just as there are plenty who feel that Fenway is also a dump. I happen to disagree. I love the atmosphere in both parks.

RZIMMERMAN: Decent effort for a Sunday. I like that ditty. Only one thing _ if it’s me to whom you refer, I rest my head not in the ‘burbs, but over by Emory….

ADCOX: Went to a record show today at a Marriott near my house, and got a DVD of Austin City Limits 1981 show by Sir Douglas Quintet and an old LP by Joe South. Had to go through a hell of a lot of bins to find one album by Mr. South, along with a mint-condition original Jerry Lee Lewis LP.

Also found a bootleg of Uncle Tupelo playing at a bar in Lawrence, KS, that I used to frequent during college (long before Uncle Tupelo ever played there) and a bootleg of a Parliament “Mothership Connection” show at Houston in 1981, plus that box set of all 17 UK Clash singles on 45s with the original sleeves. It was a good day, and was able to see the last half of the first playoff game and most of the second.

WHOCARESWHOIAM: Or what you think about Seattle.

By David O'Brien

January 14, 2007 07:47 PM | Link to this

Robert, you gotta get your nicknames down, man. Fortunately for you, still plenty of time before spring training.

In Coxian terms, it’s Chip or Chipper, Andruw or occasionally Andy (but only Bobby can call him that), and Reits or Reitsy.

Just trying to help out.

By Robert

January 14, 2007 07:48 PM | Link to this

This is pure Bobby Cox playoff ball. How to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Meanwhile, somebody goosed Coxenheimmer so he threw the flag (he has no clue what he is challenging)

If it could somehow be arranged to have a Cox team play a Schottenheimmer team in a playoff game, it would be the ultimate Spy vs Spy Bowl of managerial ineptitude

By Robert

January 14, 2007 07:51 PM | Link to this

“After reviewing the play, we have determined that this lamebrain’s weak attempt to stop yet another playoff choke had no basis because there was nothing challengable about the play”

By Robert

January 14, 2007 07:53 PM | Link to this

DOB - I’ll go practice in front of the mirror

By David O'Brien

January 14, 2007 07:55 PM | Link to this

Pats are stinkin’ ridiculous. Damn.

Time for Jack Bauer to save this night.

By Robert

January 14, 2007 08:24 PM | Link to this

This just in - Albert Einstein has extended his playoff record against Bozo the Clown to 3-0.

Albert first defeated Bozo in the 96 World Series, when Bozo inexplicably put Mark Wohlers into the 8th inning of Game 4. Bozo’s total mismanagement of his pitching staff turned the 99 World Series into a rout in which Albert didnt have to do much more than show up at the stadium and wait for the Clown to make the stupid mistake that would hand Albert’s team the game and the world title.

Most recently, Bozo’s Chargers led Albert’s Patriots by eight with under ten minutes remaining. But stupid mistakes which came about due to a lack of mental preparation allowed Albert’s boys to tie the game and then to drive the stake thru the collective heart of Bozo’s loyal followers with a late game winning field goal

Speculation and rumors will likely persist that Albert likes to keep things close, to maintain fan interest and to make sure Bozo keeps voluntarily coming back for more.

In a related story, Atlanta Braves manager Bobby Cox is rumored to be considering hiring Chargers coach Marty Schottenheimmer as a special playoff assistant. “I like the way he does things in the playoffs” brayed Cox, who has been sleeping most of the winter away in a Minnesota barn awaiting the start of spring training

By BigNastyCoonDogg

January 14, 2007 09:02 PM | Link to this

Looks like a case of “Cox-envy”!

By TheSouthernJackAss

January 14, 2007 09:15 PM | Link to this

There goes jimmy smith blaming others for his lame posts again—reminiscent of ol’ Stinky when he used to post retarded comments, before he was declawed and deballed, then try to deny them by saying it wasn’t him—jjs/stinky, learn to take responsibility for your own actions pal.

Journalist: noun jurnulist 1. A writer for newspapers and magazines. 2. Someone who keeps a diary or journal.

Journalist: AJC blog definition: 1. Any A*******Clown with a keyboard that thinks the entire universe revolves around their day to day activities so said A*******Clown writes about himself continuously.

“journalist” jimmy, which one are you??

DOB—Get your finger ready on that delete button now boy!!!…

By Coloradobravesfan

January 14, 2007 09:19 PM | Link to this

DOB… Just saw this on another site. There was once again a tie for second place behind Alfonseca, with 214 pitchers amassing 10 fingers each, followed by Bob Wickman, who finished last with 9.7. Does Wickman only have 9.7 fingers?

By Lew

January 14, 2007 09:31 PM | Link to this

Esteemed Journalist-Rumor on the Bucco Blog also says there will be a Committee to present the Wurlitzer in person. Oh, the Humanity. Will Zamfir be there, too, or just Travis Tritt?

By journalist jimmy smith

January 14, 2007 09:40 PM | Link to this

well, guess we know who was messing with jimmy smith now. it was the sda. if it involves bathrooms sda is first choice. looking forward to the holidays again, sda? somewhere to go next time? insipid wimp.

By Lew

January 14, 2007 09:43 PM | Link to this

That can’t be the real Jacka$$-He actually used a dictionary. Must be Stinky. The Jacka$$ is much closer to illiterate-Stinky’s the pseudo intellectual.

By journalist jimmy smith

January 14, 2007 09:43 PM | Link to this

lew, let’s take our buddy sda. journalist would like some time to talk one-on-one.

By journalist jimmy smith

January 14, 2007 09:53 PM | Link to this

lew, really think it is stinky? she left the blog after all the embarrassment, right? of course, whichever one it is - same difference. losers. stinky is the whiny little jerk, right?

By David O'Brien

January 14, 2007 10:56 PM | Link to this

At least now we have an explanation. Our angry friend (9:15 p.m. post) apparently was confused about all this new-fangled technology and terminology on this here internet. Yee-haw. Here’s a primer, genius:

A few definitions of BLOG found on the Web (others, this is intended for one person and one person only, since we realize the rest of you understand that you are reading and responding to a blog):

1. Blog is short for weblog. A weblog is a journal (or newsletter) that is frequently updated and intended for general public consumption. Blogs generally represent the personality of the author or the Web site. (from www.bytowninternet.com/glossary)

2. Blog is a short form for weblog, a frequent and chronological publication of comments and thoughts on the web. They usually include philosophical reflections, opinions on the Internet and social or political issues. (from www.epolitix.com)

3. A public web site where users post informal journals of their thoughts, comments, and philosophies, updated frequently and normally reflecting the views of the blog’s creator (from www.worldwidelearn.com)

OK, now it’s me talking again (don’t want to confuse you going back and forth and all). Let me know if you need more help understanding the definition. In the meantime, enjoy posting on the Braves/Man in Black blog _ not news story, or newspaper column. Blog. B-l-o-g.

There, I think even you can understand those relatively simple terms, right? Good.

By TheSouthernJackAss

January 14, 2007 11:44 PM | Link to this

Just to clear it up for DOB—I was giving the definitions for a journalist—not a blog—because so many of your “bloggers” attach “journalist” to their name—thus I was referring to journalists, not blog, boog, or whatever. If you took time to read comments before you rush to aid of “journalist” jimmy you might just understand a very simple comment such as mine. Frankly, there isn’t one journalist participating in your little blog, and that includes you…

By WhoCaresWhoIAm

January 14, 2007 11:48 PM | Link to this

Yup, spoken like a typical liberal reporter who rides the limos to the ball park on the paper’s dime, eats with Bill and friends, uses his software, and pukes the same liberal mumbo jumbo as the pukes in the PI and Times. You would not last 10 minutes on the streets in Seattle south of Ruth Chris’ joint. Hang in there Bradley, someday maybe you will actually say something that someone actually agrees with. Until then, just continue to hang there at the Constipation, your job seems secure in that dump.

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 12:00 AM | Link to this

SJA, I could be wrong, but i think most folks here who use “journalist” in their screen name are having fun and not using the term in the literal sense. Kinda like your screen name. Oh, wait. Nevermind.

WhoCaresWhoIAm: Good points. But I’m not Bradley. Mark Bradley’s a columnist here at the Constipation. The “streets of Seattle” … oooh, man. Yikes.

Fortunately the Braves don’t play in the AL West, so I don’t have to get strapped for the perilous streets of Seattle too often. But I’ve gotta stop taking the 7 train in New York and the subway in D.C. and get me one of those limos you’re talking about.

By Tony Almeida

January 15, 2007 12:05 AM | Link to this

The world is at one again. Jack Bauer has bitten a chunk out of the “evil doers” neck. God Bless America.

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 12:13 AM | Link to this

By the way, WhoCaresWhoIAm, I just went back and re-read the entry on your ballpark and city (I’m assuming Seattle is your city), and I’d like to apologize for, as you correctly noted, my use of “liberal mumbo jumbo”:

7. Safeco Field, Seattle: When the roof’s open on a 70-degree, sunny Pacific Northwest afternoon, this is heaven for baseball fans. The free coffee in the pressbox is the good stuff here, as you might imagine. To me, Seattle is the country’s most beautiful big city.

What I meant was:

7. Safeco Field, Seattle: You’ll be OK as long as you don’t trip over the dirty syringes and empty shell casings on the walk from your limo to the ballpark. Crime has soared in Seattle since the auto plants and steel mills closed down, and it’s not safe to walk at night along the once-beautiful but now hideously polluted Puget Sound. Before the insufferable smog of recent years, one could enjoy a splendid view of Mount Rainier from the Space Needle.

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 12:15 AM | Link to this

Tony Almeida, you’re right. That scene was a beaut, wasn’t it? Order is restored. Feels like Jack never left us. Love the scarring, particularly on his hands, which looked as though he dipped them in molten lava _ or the toxic Puget Sound.

By Tony Almeida

January 15, 2007 12:25 AM | Link to this

I could be the evil one here, but I will not reveal the ending of the 4th episode tomorrow, even though I know it. But Jack will hit a new low tomorrow and leave one of our favorite characters to the deceased…..God Bless Tony….Do you accept Tony Almeida as your personal savior?

By berigan

January 15, 2007 01:11 AM | Link to this

DOB, you gotta watch out for those hard core folk in Seattle! All that coffee they drink makes them jittery, and anxious! And that means those people are on a slippery slope to anger, and violence!!!

By Jared

January 15, 2007 02:14 AM | Link to this

“But I’ve gotta stop taking the 7 train in New York”

John Rocker, is that you?

“It’s the most hectic, nerve-racking city. Imagine having to take the 7 Train to the ballpark, looking like you’re riding through Beirut next to some kid with purple hair, next to some queer with AIDS, right next to some dude who just got out of jail for the fourth time, right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids. It’s depressing.” -John Rocker

Seriously now, what’s with calling David O’Brien a limousine liberal? Is he rich? I don’t think so. What has he said that is liberal, aside from the occasional talk of global warming? Someone can like Seattle (which I doubt has that many illegal immigrants) and think of it as clean and safe without being an elitist.

By wowbobwow

January 15, 2007 04:59 AM | Link to this

DOB, was that Uncle Tupelo bootleg from The Bottleneck?

By ncscoots

January 15, 2007 06:46 AM | Link to this

The President just negotiated my release, and I’m pleased to be back to the blog (scarred and ratty-looking though I may be). Disconcerting, however, to find that TiVo, Fox, and HBO entered into a conspiracy…how else to reconcile the premieres of 24 on Fox and Rome on HBO at the same time? Coincidence? I think not. Somebody find me a network head’s neck to bite.

DOB, Jack definitely does NOT abide, do he? LOL

By The Grinch

January 15, 2007 07:52 AM | Link to this

Morning, all. Today I thought we’d open with a quote or two from the most excellent poet and novelist D.H. Lawrence, in order to stretch the mind and make it supple and receptive.

“I cannot cure myself of that most woeful of youth’s follies—thinking that those who care about us will care for the things that mean much to us.”

“One must learn to love, and go through a good deal of suffering to get to it…and the journey is always towards the other soul.”

Now, Nietzche…

“What is Good? All that heightens the feeling of power in man, the will to power, power itself. What is bad? All that is born of weakness. What is happiness? The feeling that power is growing, that resistance is being overcome.” ——The Antichrist, section 2

Baseball talk may now resume.

By Shaun

January 15, 2007 08:46 AM | Link to this

By TennesseePaul

January 12, 2007 04:58 PM | Link to this

Strikeouts are bad, but they are only bad because they are outs

Payne: That is a can of worms. IN the order of bad outs, it goes Merkle Boner, Triple Play, Double Play, Strikeout. Putting the ball in play is always the better way to go if you have to decide between a K or no K. All that 1-run game luck comes into play once the ball is in play. And a guy striking out 100+ in 300+ minor league at bats is terrible. We watched a lot of minor league pitching last year, Major Leaguers eat it up. Maas was swinging and missing at sub par pitching. He was destined to fail in the pros no matter when he was called up.

Yes, strikeouts can indicate holes in a hitters swing (a guy with a terrible BB/K rate in the minors is probably not going to reach the majors or is not going to be good in the majors). And yes, putting the ball in play is better in some situations (with a runner on third and the infield back with less than two outs).

But in a lot of situations strikeouts are no worse than other outs. As you said, a strikeout is better in some situations; it’s better than hitting into a double play or a triple play.

I would rather have Jim Thome than Eric Young but who strikes out more? I know Thome would have been better had he struck out less, but my point is other things can make up for a high strikeout rate. Thome is/was a better hitter (was worth more runs to a team) than Young because he made less outs in other ways besides strikeouts and had more power. Young had more hits and less strikeouts but Thome walked more and had much more power so he more than made up the difference. And no one could argue they would rather have had Eric Young than Jim Thome or that Young was worth more runs to an offense.

By Shaun

January 15, 2007 09:14 AM | Link to this

Oh, one more thing…I haven’t seen anything that would lead me to believe a team’s record in one-run games has anything to do with their ability to put the ball in play. As I think I’ve wrote before, a team’s record in one-run games is mostly just chance, luck, fortune, whatever you want to call it. There is little to nothing to indicate why a team may win or lose as many one-run games as they did.

By Lew

January 15, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this

Grinch-The Ubermensch on a baseball blog? Did he do steroids? Enquiring minds want to know.

By Head Coach

January 15, 2007 10:31 AM | Link to this

Shaun my friend , you are beautiful. :>)

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 11:08 AM | Link to this

wowbobwow, indeed it’s the Bottleneck. You been to Lawrence, or do you have the same bootleg DVD? If you’ve got it, is it good?

I should’ve addressed that post to you, not Adcox. Got my conversations mixed up. Been talking to you about Joe South, Sir Douglas Quintet, etc. Looking forward to watching/listening to those pickups from the record show. If I’d had unlimited funds, could’ve bought a couple dozen great bootleg CDs and DVDs. These guys had everything.

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

Shaun, I agree with Head Coach _ you’re a beaut, man. When stats don’t answer a question, you assume there is no answer. Because there’s no rhyme or reason to one-run game records, you assume they’re just dumb luck. Not a great bullpen, not a confident tone set by early season wins in those situations, not a player or two who seems to have a knack for coming up with big hits and can convince his teammates that they should and will win when it’s all on the line, etc.

By Hammer 44

January 15, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this

I’d put Wrigley atop the list of parks where I’ve been to games. The second time I went there , we started with a two beer lunch at the Cubby Bear Lounge, then took seats up under the deck where we could see the press box. The highlights of the game came when Harry made his switches from TV to Radio and back, both parades to cheers from the faithful, of course. On the secnd pas, I swear that Harry had a cold Bud in a plastic cup in one hand, while he waved with the other.

I drove past Pac Bell…or whatever it’s called now….and it’s beautiful. I could remember the name if it had been named appropriately: Willie Mays Field. I hate the stadium name game. How great it would be if the Braves played at Henry Aaron Park, and folks talked about catching a game at “The Hammer”?

“The Ted” is nice and a big improvement over Fulton County.

KC’s park is great. DOB, I saw George Bell hit three dingers there on ‘88 Opening Day (first player to do that), then watched Danny and the Miracles knock off Tubbs and the Sooners at Kemper that night. Talk about a great sports day….

I happened to be in Boston one winter while Fenway was undergoing some renovation. Walked right in and down to the base of the Green Monster. To me, it looks much smaller than it does on the tube.

Yankee Stadium is great only because you know Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Mantle, et. al, played there. Saw a deserted late season game with the Orioles there during the pre-Torre slump. I remember that I wished Harry Callahan was with us. Today, of course, I’d want Jack there.

Old Comiskey was dank, but great, and I used to go to the Joker in Lakeland when it was new in the late 60’s-early 70’s. Both Durham Bulls parks are great- the new AAA facility and the Depression-era beauty featued in Bull Durham. I actually saw by little brother play an AAU game there when the then- Class A Bulls were outta town.

Thanks for the list. Shall we tackle college basketball arenas next?

1) Cameron 2) Phog Allen

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 11:42 AM | Link to this

Gregor Blanco just needs to keep hitting this spring like he’s hit everwhere else in the past year. After hitting .290 with a .403 OBP (28 doubles, zero homers, 31 steals) between Double-A Miss and Triple-A Richmond last season, he hit .317 in 55 winter-ball games in the Dominican, and now he’s 9-for-18 in five playoff games down there.

Where’s he hitting in the lineup? Leadoff.

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

That said, I’m still not sure Blanco really has a chance to make the team out of spring training, despite his improvements of the past year and his great performance at Triple-A. I’m just not hearing indication that he’s in the plans from conversations I have with people who know this stuff….

Hammer44, you had me to the last line of your post. Reverse those and you’ve got a good start on hoops venues, my friend. Maybe The Pit at No. 3. Too bad a great team doesn’t play regularly at The Palestra in Philly, because that’s a tremendous venue.

And believe me, if you thought you saw Harry with a Bud in one hand and waving with the other while walking between the radio and TV booths, well, you wouldn’t have been the only person who saw that many, many times. He tossed backs brews all the time while doing his thing with aplomb. God bless him….

You were at the ‘88 title game at Kemper, huh? I was sitting in Louise’s West with all my buddies who were on the six- or seven-year plan at KU. I’d been out of school two years, working my first real job at a little paper in Emporia, and would drive over to Lawrence to party with my friends still in school.

We watched that game and headed straight to campus afterward, where thousands and thousands of folks were celebrating. Never forget that night. Ever. 50-50 at halftime, and yet everyone in the bar knew KU was going to win, just the way things had fallen in place during that tournament, and the way Manning had willed them to win again and again….

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 15, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

I might have already posted this on another blog, but I’ll say again that Wrigley Field is an awesome place to be for a summer day game. I went in ‘98 and got to walk around on the field for a fan clinic. They had Wrigley Field employees lined up down the outfield wall to keep everybody from picking at the ivy. We found the cutest little blonde worker we could find and tried to sweet-talk her into letting us get some of it….But she wouldn’t bend……Settle down Grinch, I’m talking about the ivy, here.

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

Some interesting things on this date in baseball history:

1964 _ Giants star Willie Mays, the highest paid player in baseball, signs for $105,000.

1981 _ Bob Gibson is elected to the Hall of Fame in his first year on the ballot, named on 84 percent of ballots (16 percent left off BOB GIBSON?!). He’s the only one elected that year, and those falling short included Don Drysdale, Gil Hodges and Harmon Killebrew.

2002 _ Braves trade Brian Jordan (.295-25-97 season in ‘01), pitcher Odalis Perez (7-8, 4.91), and a minor leaguer to the Dodgers for Gary Sheffield (.311-36-100).

By Shaun

January 15, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

O’Brien,

Well, teams don’t really show a knack for winning or losing one-run games. A team that wins a lot of one-run games for one half a season, is likely to lose more on-run games in the next half a season (2005 Nationals). I think randomness is a better word than “dumb luck.”

And there are a few things that may correlate with winning and losing one-run games (bullpen, manager) but it’s not clear that those things make much more of a difference than just randomness.

It’s not that when stats don’t answer my question I assume randomness. It’s when stats don’t answer my question and the the results are random, I assume randomness. If teams showed any consistency in winning or losing one-run games, I would think there was some factor/ability that causes them to play well or not well in one-run games. But so far, there isn’t much consistency in the way a team plays in one-run games. If a team had a knack for winning one-run games, don’t you think they would repeat that ability from one season to the next or one half season to the next?

Kind of like clutch hitting. It’s not just that the stats don’t show clutch hitting ability, but also that there is no repeatability in a player’s clutch hitting abilities. A hitter that seems to be “clutch” one year wasn’t “clutch” the year before or the year after. A hitter doesn’t show a knack for clutch hitting from season to season. You would think if a hitter was a good clutch hitter, he would consistently hit well in the clutch. But most hitters may hit right at their career averages in the clutch one season and below the next, and above the next…there is no consistency there.

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

Shaun, you wrote: “a team had a knack for winning one-run games, don’t you think they would repeat that ability from one season to the next or one half season to the next?”

Perhaps not if a key member of the bullpen or lineup was missing, or they have several newcomers and the team lost a few key early season games. I think it’s quite possible for things like that to get into the heads of certain players, play into the team’s psyche. I just don’t agree that it’s all random. Don’t agree with that at all.

By Shaun

January 15, 2007 12:49 PM | Link to this

Oh, onto ballparks…I’ve only been to Fenway, Yankee Stadium, Camden Yards and Turner Field. Fenway is my favorite because of the atmosphere and the ambiance—the Red Sox are to New England what Georgia or Auburn or Florida football is to their fans.

Camden Yards is great because of the location and restaurants also, but you don’t get the sense of history and tradition or the colors that make it feel like you’re in a strange baseball fantasy world the way Fenway does.

I had terrible bleacher seats at Yankee Stadium so I don’t feel like I got the full effect. But it didn’t seem very fan-friendly or charming for an old time park.

Turner Field is one of the more underrated parks around. The ushers/attendants are the nicest around and it has the rare combination of fan-friendliness and baseball charm. The only bad thing is the atmosphere outside the park isn’t as exciting as some of the other places.

By The Grinch

January 15, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

Lew, Herr Nietzche did not need performance-enhancing substances; he did not begin weak.

Hillbilly, don’t do me like that, man; that was like a glass of ice water in the wrong area. :-)

Speaking of performance enhancement, I wonder if Gold’s is open today…

By Shaun

January 15, 2007 12:55 PM | Link to this

O’Brien,

I’m just judging based on evidence I’ve seen or read about. I could be convinced otherwise but the evidence seems to suggest there’s really little if any rhyme or reason to one-run games. In other words, it seems that there is nothing in a team’s abilities that suggest why they were or should be good or bad in one-run games.

A little experiment: Randomly look at some teams’ records in one-run games throughout history and try to find out if you can guess what that team did overall or what that team’s strengths and weaknesses were. My guess is you’ll find all kinds of teams with both good and bad records in one-run games.

By Shaun

January 15, 2007 01:14 PM | Link to this

O’Brien,

One last thing and then I’ll drop it (until someone says something I feel like responding to on the subject)…From what I’ve read and heard, there are some things that may impact a team’s ability to win or lose one-run games but for the most part there is a lot of randomness involved. A good team with a good bullpen, a smart manager, etc. may win a lot of one-run games but it’s not a sure thing. A team probably isn’t going to win a lot of one-run games without at least some of these characteristics but the tendency of those types of teams to win one-run games or the opposite types of teams to lose one-run games isn’t strong either way.

By Shaun

January 15, 2007 01:18 PM | Link to this

O’Brien,

Okay, one last thing…yes, one-run record doesn’t seems to be all random but randomness is probably over 90 percent of one-run record.

By Tonight on TBS

January 15, 2007 01:24 PM | Link to this

First time on television:

The Queen (2006)

In the days following the Mets’ tragic collapse in the playoffs, Her Majesty Pedro Martinez (Helen Mirren) and Prime Manager William Randolph (Michael Sheen) struggle to reach a compromise between what was a private tragedy for the Mets’ pitchers and the public’s demand for an overt display of mourning.

By MBATL

January 15, 2007 01:33 PM | Link to this

Shaun, the Braves pen blew 16 saves on the road in ‘06. Most of those are going to be late-inning losses, and therefore 1-run games. (obviously, if the home team scores to take the lead in the 9th, they’re not gonna need to make it a 2-run win… game is over)

By virtually every statistic you can look at, the Braves hitting in the clutch (RISP, “close and late”, etc) was in the top 2 in the NL, but our save % was the lowest in the league.

Plus, we lost 5 1-run games in which we scored 8 runs or more - that’s just bad pitching.

That’s why we lost a lot of 1-run games, IMO. Has nothing to do with “clutch tendencies” (though I DO like stats - that’s why baseball is so much fun).

By MBATL

January 15, 2007 01:38 PM | Link to this

Sorry, that’s 5 1-run losses when we scored SEVEN or more.

By DonCoburleone

January 15, 2007 01:47 PM | Link to this

DOB, I can’t really comment too much on this list since I’ve only been to 4 different stadiums in my life. However, if Dodger stadium is the 9th best stadium in all of baseball, then I am thankful I’ve only been to 4 stadiums in my life… I’m assuming these rankings factors in everything right? If so, you’ve obviously never tried to get into or leave Dodger Stadium before or after a game. Plus, behind the stands where all the concessions are is borderline NASTY! I’ve smelled some of the foulest smells in my life at Dodger stadium. So IMO, having only been to 4 stadiums in my life (Dodger, Angel, D-Backs field, and Petco Park) Dodger stadium is a distant 4th on that list…

By Shaun

January 15, 2007 01:49 PM | Link to this

MBATL,

The offense was good enough for the Braves to win a lot of one-run games/close games or at least even out some of those losses. The Braves were probably about an 85 win team, talent-wise (based on a typical team with the same runs scored and runs allowed totals). The bullpen explains some of why the Braves lost so many one-run games, but not all of it because the offense was good enough to offset some of those losses.

By DonCoburleone

January 15, 2007 01:54 PM | Link to this

“Sorry, that’s 5 1-run losses when we scored SEVEN or more.”

Is that stat for real MBATL?

By DonCoburleone

January 15, 2007 01:57 PM | Link to this

DOB I do agree that Dodger Dogs are insanely good…

By Head Coach

January 15, 2007 02:01 PM | Link to this

Here is what Dayton Moore had to say about Gregor Blanco in the spring of 2006 : He can really play defense. He’s our closest center fielder to the major leagues. He plays hard , he is aggressive , he can bunt. He is a base stealing threat with blazing speed who can score from first on any ball hit in the gap or down the line. He is a guy we still have a lot of faith in because youth is still on his side. Now , ya’ll keep in mind that this was said prior to the great season Blanco had in 2006. The funny thing is , he is on the forty man roster and has steadily advanced through the Braves minor league system improving with each season and nobody has him listed on any top prospect list. And as DOB has already mentioned , he is a leadoff hitter.

By MBATL

January 15, 2007 02:10 PM | Link to this

Shaun, I think ‘expected wins’ is an interesting stat, and makes sense, for some purposes.

But, since we were #2 in the league in scoring, and very high in every measurable “clutch hitting” situation; and we led the league in blown saves and had the lowest save %, doesn’t it just make sense that we lost a lot of 1-run games due to bad pitching, and especially bad relief pitching?

And again, you can’t usually hit your way out of a blown save on the road - and we had 16 of those. Cut that in half, and we’re 27-25 in 1-run games… right about where we should be based on ‘expected wins’.

By The Stranger

January 15, 2007 02:12 PM | Link to this

I realize I’m a little late to the greatest American Ballparks debate, but because I speak with no authority on the issue and love to disagree I’ll chime in anyway.

Since I’ve never sat farther than a Barry Bonds homer away from the Pacific Ocean, I’ll limit my critique to those few Left Coast parks:

1) Petco. San Francisco has the more dramatic site, but San Diego has a few more things going for it to give it the edge over AT&T. Fans in SD love the game and they love their Pads; fans in SF love Barry and hate anyone who questions Barry. Also, the Gas Lamp District after a Padres home game is the hottest block party in America on any given summer night.

2) AT&T. I like the way you can walk completely around this park as a fan and get so many different vantage points of the field. Petco has that cool-looking, but ultimately intrusive warehouse that makes circumnavigation impossible. Even so, SF is trading climate and post-game atmosphere for Barry and a short right porch.

3) Safeco. Don’t let the name fool you folks, Snake Pliskin wouldn’t try to escape this park after dark without the right weaponry and an armored escape vehicle. But if you can look past the horrific crime scene, you might find one of the most fan-friendly ballparks in one of the most people-friendly cities in America.

So, My Top 5…

1) Wrigley 2) Petco 3) AT&T 4) PNC 5) Safeco

Apologies to Fenway for getting squeezed, but prohibitive prices and a recent World Series pennant gets them less love than perhaps deserved.

By tfbrave

January 15, 2007 02:14 PM | Link to this

Good post Head Coach. And for those who want to label Blanco based on his lack of power. Remember Rafael Furcal hit a grand total of 3 HRs in his 3+ minor league seasons, while Blanco has had 26 total in his 4 minor league seasons. Last season he did not hit any but he did have 28 doubles.

By MBATL

January 15, 2007 02:19 PM | Link to this

Don C:

Fri, 5/5 at Mets 8-7

Fri, 5/19 at Diamondbacks 10-9

Sun, 9/3 at Phillies 8-7

Sat, 9/23 at Rockies 10-9

Sun, 9/24 at Rockies 9-8

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 15, 2007 02:32 PM | Link to this

Jorge Sosa to the Mets and Todd Pratt to the Yankees??? (Maybe) If this is true, these are two of the best transactions the Braves could have possibly hoped for, going into this offseason =) Looks like the Mets are still trying to bolster their offense more by acquiring J. Sosa, because I know they didn’t get him for his arm.

By Hammer 44

January 15, 2007 02:34 PM | Link to this

DOB,

I knew the Phog Allen “diss” would get ya.

In ‘88, I was out there workin’ with the Dookies. They lost in the semis to your guys, so I had time to catch the Royals/Jays game. We did have to leave before the game ended, but we decided to stay and watch Bell hit again…and saw dinger #3 go out.

Been to one game at Phog and enjoyed it…but it’s no Cameron.

By DonCoburleone

January 15, 2007 02:34 PM | Link to this

Record when the offense scores 7 runs or more should be???

LOL, oh that’s right, UNDEFEATED! No wonder we only won 79 games last year…

By AdirondackDave

January 15, 2007 02:43 PM | Link to this

Head Coach & DOB — Many thanks for the great info on Gregor Blanco. He really looks like the real deal and a problem solver if his high level of play continues. Still, I’m looking for a good year from the Braves with the players they have under their control now. I generally tend to be a bit skeptical but this club looks like a serious contender to me. Wish we could get the ownership resolved and a better sense of the future, budget-wise. I haven’t given up hope that, when that happens, some creative work by Schuerholz will keep Andruw here.

And many thanks DOB, for keeping us awake and on our toes this off-season. Just another month or so until pitchers and catchers report…

By MBATL

January 15, 2007 02:47 PM | Link to this

2006 WHEN SCORING 7 RUNS OR MORE:

BRAVES: 35-7

METS: 53-2

Yes, even though the Braves scored more runs than the Mets - the Mets got shut out a bunch of times - but scored 7 or more a lot more than the Braves. Not sure what thay says about our offense…. Shaun?

By Shaun

January 15, 2007 02:47 PM | Link to this

MBATL,

Something about high-scoring one-run road losses to think about, especially those two in Colorado: it may have had nothing to do with the bullpen or anything else but just who got to bat last.

By DonCoburleone

January 15, 2007 02:51 PM | Link to this

“Jorge Sosa to the Mets and Todd Pratt to the Yankees??? (Maybe) If this is true, these are two of the best transactions the Braves could have possibly hoped for, going into this offseason =) Looks like the Mets are still trying to bolster their offense more by acquiring J. Sosa, because I know they didn’t get him for his arm.”

Yeah right… I bet Mota will get a hold of Sosa and he’ll become freakin’ dominant.

By wowbobwow

January 15, 2007 02:53 PM | Link to this

DOB, yea I like Lawrence alot. I’ve played at The Bottleneck a few times. It’s kind of a well-known midwest stop for touring musicians. A little run down at the present time though, unfortunately. It has that really nasty bar smell that a place gets when it’s been open for 20 or more years. Pavlovian response has me squirming in my chair just thinking about it. ugh. Let me know how that Sir Douglas ACL performance is. That time period is a decade or so after anything else I’ve ever heard from him. Curious about the lineup and set list,etc. He used that band name with many different lineups in both Texas and San Francisco.

By AdirondackDave

January 15, 2007 02:58 PM | Link to this

Anybody know if there is a directory or site on the web that lists active players, major and minor league, that maintain websites, blogs, etc? I remember C.J. Nitkowski did a very interesting site a few years ago when he was with Detroit.

By journalist jimmy smith

January 15, 2007 03:12 PM | Link to this

journalist DOB is paid to watch baseball so he is qualified to rank ballparks.

journalist jimmy smith is paid to watch Diane Lane so he is qualified to rank 10 best Diane Lane movies:

01 - Lonesome Dove (1989)

02 - My Dog Skip (2000)

03 - Chaplin (1992)

04 - Rumblefish (1983)

05 - Hollywoodland (2006)

06 - The Outsiders (1983)

07 - Under the Tuscan Sun (2003)

08 - Unfaithful (2002)

09 - A Walk on the Moon (1999)

10 - The Cotton Club (1984)

journalist must give honorable mention to: Cattle Annie and Little Britches (1981; Diane Lane plays “little britches”)

now baseball - if closer Wickman is injured who will Braves pick to fill his little britches?

By DonCoburleone

January 15, 2007 03:21 PM | Link to this

I know this is nowhere near baseball or Braves talk, but does anyone agree with me that the SD loss to New England was the biggest choke job in an NFL playoff game since Buffalo losing to NYG in the 1990 Super Bowl??? Can anyone think of a bigger choke-job in recent history?

By MBATL

January 15, 2007 03:37 PM | Link to this

Yeah, Parcells not kicking the FG on 3rd down. Muff it, recover it, kick it again.

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 03:42 PM | Link to this

Stranger, very funny post. And good points on Sans Francisco/Diego debate. Never tried circumnavigation at Petco, but can see where it’d be a problem….

Must rent Hollywoodland (is it out yet?) for Diane Lane fix….

Wowbobwow, the Bottleneck smelled like that 25 years ago, dude. Smell is perpetual, repugnant, gloriously awful.

You ever play Liberty Hall in Lawrence? Saw Husker Du there.

By DonCoburleone

January 15, 2007 03:46 PM | Link to this

I hope Manning finally wins it this year… frickin’ Patriots, I hate ‘em…

By Shaun

January 15, 2007 03:52 PM | Link to this

DonCoburleone,

How about Houston Oilers vs. Buffalo in ‘93 or ‘94? Maybe the biggest choke job in sports history…letting the backup quarterback come in and lead the opponent to the biggest comeback in NFL history. And it’s not like the Oilers couldn’t put up points. They just completely choked in that game.

You could argue the Yankees choking in the ALCS. Letting a team do something that’s never been done and losing twice at home I think it a big choke job. But, in their defense, Games 4 and 5 could have gone either way.

By The Grinch

January 15, 2007 04:17 PM | Link to this

DonC, all four playoff games last weekend were major choke jobs. The Eagles punted down by three with no time outs and a gassed defense with 1:56 to go. Huh? Reid might as well have walked across to shake hands at that point. Most preposterous punt ever. Ravens punting on 4th and 2 from the COLTS 42 wasn’t far behind…coach told his offense they might as well not even be on the field by doing that and they responded by not scoring again. Bears did everything they possibly could to give the game to Seattle and basically won by default, and now we have to watch the Saints in the Super Bowl. There should be a law against that. At least we found out that Dodge trucks can take a punch from a robot and I’m pretty sure now that this is our country.

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 05:13 PM | Link to this

Definitely our country.

By DonCoburleone

January 15, 2007 05:17 PM | Link to this

“How about Houston Oilers vs. Buffalo in ‘93 or ‘94? Maybe the biggest choke job in sports history…”

OF COURSE! How could I forget that game? Absolutely right though, by far the biggest choke job in NFL history for sure…

And Grinch, I was only talking football chokes… Obviously, if we are talking all of sports history, then yes, the Yankees losing 4 in a row (to your most hated rival) after being up 3-0 IS WITHOUT QUESTION THE BIGGEST CHOKE JOB IN THE HISTORY OF SPORTS.

By DonCoburleone

January 15, 2007 05:23 PM | Link to this

DOB, what do you consider the biggest choke job in sports history?

By jed

January 15, 2007 05:26 PM | Link to this

hey d.o’b….

what do you hear on LF? if there’s no trade, we’ve got 3, maybe 4 potential starters. i’m assuming it’ll be a platoon with diaz and either thorman or langerhans.

any insights?

By DonCoburleone

January 15, 2007 05:28 PM | Link to this

If I ever find out who came up with the Chevy “our country” commercials I am going to hunt them down and torture them…

By Carroll

January 15, 2007 05:44 PM | Link to this

Grinch: careful…it’s only your country if you wear a cowboy hat, live on a ranch, you’re white, straight, and dip chaw. Everyone else might as well just move to France I suppose.

As far as choke jobs, the 1996 Braves have to be near the top. Not only did they choke away the 2 game to none lead coming home for four, but in each of the subsequent 4 losses, they p** each individual game away after having a good chance to win.

By The Stranger

January 15, 2007 05:52 PM | Link to this

DOB, without jeapordizing your good standing within the organization, can you explain why you call Cracker Jack Stadium “Dark Star?” Apologies if you’ve already covered this or if it is obvious to all but me.

FYI: Lucinda’s “West” release date 2/13

By DonCoburleone

January 15, 2007 06:04 PM | Link to this

“As far as choke jobs, the 1996 Braves have to be near the top.”

Hate to agree, but you are right. That team had everything on their side… 2-0 lead going home, more talent position by position, all the momentum, and more playoff experience… By far the most crushing WS loss the Braves ever suffered (I know losing in 1991 to Minnesota was brutal, but I was too young then - only 9 years old - to be that upset.) No event in sports, not even close, compares to the pain I felt after the Leyritz HR in game 4 to tie the series at 2… I absolutely wanted to throw up…

By The Grinch

January 15, 2007 06:12 PM | Link to this

DonC, look back…Shaun was the one who brought up baseball, not me. As long as football’s being talked, that’s the subject I stick to.

Carroll, I thought everyone else had moved to France. You tryin’ to tell me you don’t dip? :-)

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 06:13 PM | Link to this

Stranger, trust me, you’re not jeopardizing anything. I call it Dark Star because Disney World seems rather sinister to me, an undercurrent of have-fun-or-else and sense that they should just cut to the chase and turn every tourist upside-down and shake all their money out of their pockets….

That, plus explain to me why there are NO MOSQUITOES at Disney, why you’ll never get bitten by any insects there despite not wearing Off or anything? I mean, that whole area was built on a swamp, yet there’s not a mosquito found at Disney. You drive to Winter Haven and your car windshield’s covered in insects and you’ll get eaten alive some nights walking back to your car from the ballpark there. But not at Disney. Something in the air, my friend. Something sinister….

Can’t WAIT for Lucinda’s new one. Been playing her live album, the extra disc on the expanded “Car Wheels on a Gravel Road” CD.

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 06:16 PM | Link to this

Jed, barring trade, I think your LF assumption is a good one. Five OFs would be Andruw, Francoeur, Langerhans, Diaz and Thorman, with Thorman also obviously backing up LaRoche. Couple of the utility candidates also can play the OF.

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 06:27 PM | Link to this

For biggest choke job, I’d go with that Oilers-Bills game for one game, and Yankees blowing 3-0 lead _ only time in history _ vs. the Red Sox in the ALCS.

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 06:31 PM | Link to this

oh, and Stranger, it’s not the stadium formerly known as Cracker Jack (they changed name a year ago to Ballpark at blah blah blah) that I refer to as Dark Star, it’s Disney World in general. Just to clarify.

The stadium itself is fine. Nice spring training ballpark. It’s just the location. That whole side of Orlando … cringe.

By journalist jimmy smith

January 15, 2007 06:35 PM | Link to this

jimmy smith is not a journalist? how about that! journalist has been calling journalist jimmy smith that since dob’s horse got sick and jimmy smith had to help for a day or two. and jimmy smith has broken several news stories on this blog to include numerous toe injuries and toe-related helpful hints. but alas, not all jimmy smith posts are from jimmy smith. in fact, about half the posts on this blog with journalist jimmy smith’s name are not from journalist jimmy smith. journalist will continue to do some journalism like journalist has did from the start. now, sda/stinky/whatever you are still whiny and still a jerk even when you use this journalist’s name. now, baseball … felix pie is a name to remember. p-i-e is not pronounced pye but instead it is pee-ay. please pass the pee-ay does not sound appetizing, does it? if pee-ay can hit it won’t make a difference.

By The Grinch

January 15, 2007 06:41 PM | Link to this

The Braves didn’t choke in ‘91; Minnesota cheated. I was old enough for that to be acutely painful. Besides the cheating everyone watched on screen (Hrbeck pulling Gant off the bag and bodyslamming him, etc.), the dude who ran the A/C at the Metrodome has since come out publicly and said he was told to blow the A/C out when the Twins were batting and in towards the field when the Braves were batting, creating a noticable advantage according to him (he did it that year at ALL home games, and the offensive discrepancy between Twins/visitors speaks for itself). Coincidence we scored next to nothing at their place and lost all four games and scored like mad at home and won all three? I think not. I really don’t understand why that hasn’t since been reviewed in a meaningful way. I bet if we were the Yankees or Sox Minn. would’ve been stripped of it’s trophy on the spot.

By woogidy

January 15, 2007 06:48 PM | Link to this

DOB, You going to be at Braves Fanfest?

By MBATL

January 15, 2007 06:49 PM | Link to this

The Braves also didn’t choke in ‘96. They got outpitched (after a game 1 breakout). There’s a difference between “choking” and getting beat.

Grinch, you bring up something I was thinking of: which ballpark gives the biggest “home field advantage.” God, Minnesota sure got one in ‘91.

By brian

January 15, 2007 06:52 PM | Link to this

DOB - a North Carolinian needs help

Rumor has it Tom Glavine is hosting a fundraiser for organ transplant or cancer benefit next week.

Anyway you could find me a website so i can bid on some items?

Thoughts on the Hall Of Fame and Dale Murphy. It really is a shame he played on some awful teams. 2 time MVP and one of the most feared hitters of his days (au naturale) should at least get more consideration than he is getting.

I wonder if Chipper looks at Dale and gets motivation. Chipper can fade off into the sunset or have a few more big years. The Braves need him to play 140 games, hit 30+ HR and have >100 RBIs to lead them back into the playoffs. Another big season or 3 combined with clobbering the mets should get him in.

the 90s Braves could easily place Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Chipper, and Andruw in the Hall. And yes, sorry Robert, Bobby Cox and JS.

By The Grinch

January 15, 2007 07:01 PM | Link to this

Yeah, MBATL, the guy said the A/C operators “have since been instructed not to do it anymore” by ownership (guess someone was getting wind of it, pardon the pun), but that’s really despicable. Of course, it’s no worse than McGraw putting soap chips all throughout the pitching mound and only telling his pitchers where the fresh dirt was, but that was a long time ago. Makes you wonder who else is getting away with what.

By DonCoburleone

January 15, 2007 07:04 PM | Link to this

And of course, in recent times, their was the 2005 NLDS game 4 against Houston… Who could forget that choke? Talk about one of my more painful moments in sports history. Giving up a 5 run lead with 1 out in the 8th innning (and 1 run lead with 2 out and 2 strikes in the 9th). Being forced to watch until the 18th inning when the inevitable finally happened (I actually wasn’t forced, but my love of the Braves made it physically impossible for me to move from my seat or change the channel). As bad as this may sound, I actually thought it at the time… I remember thinking in the 16th or 17th inning that this was like a close friend who was terminally ill but you just had to be their for them, even though it was extremely difficult for you and you knew they were going to die. (Pretty terrible analogy I know, and if I offended anyone I apologize)…

By The Grinch

January 15, 2007 07:28 PM | Link to this

Speaking of choking, I was just watching NFL total access and eating and they showed a hi-def slo-mo sequence of Bill Parcells jogging, B-cup man-boobs windmill-flapping from upper left to lower right like a “chick on a beach” commercial. I almost choked. Also speaking of choking and football, the Maimi Dolphins have now narrowed their head coach possibilities to Chan Gaily and Jim Mora. I bet their fans are quivering with anticipation. What are they thinking? Hmmm, let’s go with a guy who just went 7-9 with the NFL’s highest payroll, give him half the talent and see how he does…or go with the guy who just lost to Georgia 5 times in a row (in his only 5 years coaching the state rival). Brilliant! Drink Guiness responsibly.

By The Stranger

January 15, 2007 07:32 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the “Dark Star” clary, DOB.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 15, 2007 07:32 PM | Link to this

I think obviously the biggest baseball choke was the Yanks in ‘04 to the Red Sox. I also think the Yanks choking to the Angels in the ALDS in ‘02 is not far behind.

I think another choke nobody really talks about is the 1998 NBA Finals. I know what I’m about to say is blaspehmous. However, I think the Jazz choked. I’m a huge Bulls fan but the Jazz were a better team that year and simply didn’t get it done. Hell, MJ was sick as a dog most of that serious and they still couldn’t win.

By Robert

January 15, 2007 07:34 PM | Link to this

Guys, what did Shaun say? He said that things like a good bullpen and a smart manager might have some correlation with a good record in one run games.

The Braves had the anithesis of both of the above. Thus they had a porr record in one run games

By Robert

January 15, 2007 07:37 PM | Link to this

“what do you consider the biggest choke job in sports history?”

Bobby Cox’s playoff record, in a landslide

By DonCoburleone

January 15, 2007 07:41 PM | Link to this

MBATL I usually agree with you, but the ‘96 team CHOKED! Any time one team has more talent than the other, a 2-0 lead heading home, and all the momentum in the world and they lose the next 4 straight to deny themselves entry into the elite class of back-to-back World Series Champs! That is a bonafide CHOKE JOB my friend!

By DonCoburleone

January 15, 2007 07:45 PM | Link to this

Actually, the Cardinals in 1996 choked pretty bad against the Braves… But I wouldn’t put it anywhere near the top cuz I truly believe the Braves of 1996 had far and away the most talented team in baseball…

By MBATL

January 15, 2007 07:51 PM | Link to this

DonC, I guess we need to agree to what “choke” means. Yes, we got beat, and probably had the better team. That happens ALL THE TIME in MLB and other sports.

To me, Bill Buckner is a “choke”. In ‘96, Wohlers threw a bad pitch in, what, Game 4? Other than that, we just got outplayed and outpitched. It may have been an upset, but I wouldn’t use the word “choke.”

Anyway, like I said, it’s a matter of terminology, or something like that.

By the way, Grinch:

B-cup man-boobs windmill-flapping from upper left to lower right like a “chick on a beach” commercial

That phrase is worthy of a Pulitzer, or a Wurlitzer… or maybe a Howitzer.

By Carroll

January 15, 2007 07:53 PM | Link to this

Don: agreed. And as I said in my earlier post, not only was the overall series a choke job for the Braves, but look at each individual game that they lost…they choked away every single game from game 3 through game 6…had a chance to take every one (and had game 4 dead to rights) and just handed it right over to the Yanks. Sickening.

By Stinky

January 15, 2007 09:04 PM | Link to this

Top Ten Jack Nicholson Movies:

1. One Flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest. The real Jack with the real DeVito. And all he wanted to do was watch the World Series.

2. The Postman Always Rings Twice. Jack puts Jessica Lang in her place while the pair turn in the hottest non-skin-showing scene ever.

3. Goin’ South. Under rated movie with John Belushi and Mary Steenburgen. Jack puts Mary in her place while giving Belushi a horse p* shower.

4. Prizzi’s Honor. He brought out the best in Angelica Huston in more ways than one. And he put her in her place.

5. Chinatown. He finds out Faye Dunnaway’s secret, much to his owchie. And he put her in her place.

6. Carnal Knowledge. Ann Margret, Candice Bergin, Rita Moreno, and Carol Kane. Jack puts them all in their places.

7. As Good as It Gets. Jack puts Helen Hunt in her place while placating a boy and his dog.

8. Something’s Gotta Give. Jack puts Diane Keaton in her place while we get a momentary glance of her in the nude.

9. Batman. Jack almost puts Batman and Kim Basinger in their places while turning in the best super-villain performance of all time.

10. The Shinning. Here’s Johnny.

By The Grinch

January 15, 2007 09:12 PM | Link to this

MBATL, I found it worthy of a Heimlich. But thanks for the praise. :-)

By Lew

January 15, 2007 09:17 PM | Link to this

DOB-I agree with you about Disney, but it is not in Orlando. They are not even in the same county as Orlando. They are in Lake Buena Vista and are closer to Kissimee than Orlando. No big deal, but let’s be fair. The Citrus Bowl is in Orlando, not Wide World of Sports. As far as minor league parks go, Al Lang Stadium in St. Pete is a great spring venue. It’s got a great view of Tampa Bay. It’s right down the street from Pepin’s, too, a great Spanish restaurant.

By Tomahawkin

January 15, 2007 09:41 PM | Link to this

D.O.B. Agreed on the new Busch…I live up here with cardinal fans and they say its unimpressive…I do live the view of the Louie however…I think they could use taller skyscrapers

Dolphin Stadium in Fort Liquordale is HUGE…Especially when empty…My college (FAU) used to play they’re Football games there, and I saw Where Mike Piazza Hit that homerun above the Don Shula sign…Man that is far…

In my opinion Turner Field other that the Huge Titantron is one of the worse looking of the Retro parks…There is no baseball atmosphere, outside (especially compared to the atmosphere of the CHOP SHOP, its bout as bad as the tailgating experience at the Ga. Dome) It caters to much to little kids…and I’d wish they had built it where either in the site of The Olypmic Park, or Atlantic station would have been good as well…And it caters to pitchers…I hate 3-2 games give me da slugfests

U.S. cellular looks a lot better since it was redesigned, I think other than the Jake It has the best looking roof facade…

Petco=Classic, especially the Sunset over all the new developments in dat area

Final Note, I miss the Multipurpase stadiums, especially the ones played on grass with the baseball field engraved into them…That created classic Mud Bowl Football games in August/September when it rained…

Don’t forget the Mistake by the Lake, 3com/Monster Park or the Kingdome as some of the worse of the multipurpose era…

BTW I think Qualcomm is a great place to watch a football game…Not so good 4 baseball

Best football experience…Arrowhead in Kansas City, and The Homerdome in Minneapolis…love seeing the slidepit cutouts on the artificial surface…

Oh yea D.O.B. Great Blog…Nuff Respect…

By Robert

January 15, 2007 09:55 PM | Link to this

“cuz I truly believe the Braves of 1996 had far and away the most talented team in baseball…”

Yes they did. But a few weeks after LaRussa gave them a repreive, we saw what happens when you put a 50 cent brain in command of a $50 million baseball team

By Robert

January 15, 2007 09:59 PM | Link to this

Who’s country is this anyway?

By The Grinch

January 15, 2007 10:03 PM | Link to this

Stinky, everytime I completely dismiss you, you come up with something that takes me by surprise. Prizzi’s honnor? The old Capo de tutti capo (William Hickey) was my acting teacher at HB studio in New York. “Would you like another cookie, Dearie?” That’s not a film most people besides critics know much about (he was the cigar smoking old uncle in “Christmas Vacation,” for the less informed, as well as a number of similar-sized roles). Well done.

By Tony Almeida

January 15, 2007 10:06 PM | Link to this

I would like to send out my condolences to Curtis Manning and his family….always listen to Jack.

By The Grinch

January 15, 2007 10:38 PM | Link to this

Don Sutton broadcasting for the Nats? That just doesn’t seem right. Of course, neither does Maddux pitching anywhere else, either. Lew, in light of the most recent posts above, I call for you to put forth your hypothesis mentioned earlier…do it, man! Or, shall I (I’ll give you credit)?

By Stinky

January 15, 2007 10:49 PM | Link to this

Grinch, we can be friends. If you liked that list here is my list of top plumbers. 1. The Wife 2. Pauly Shore Plumber 3. Plumb & Son 4. Drainz Not Pains 5. Septic Sam Nunn 6. Mr. Stop-it 7. Piper Laurie 8. Roto-Blogger 9. Charlie Chan-nel Lock 10.Momma

I’d like to rank Momma higher than number 10 but she always gets “distracted” by the other plumbers, electricians, carpenters, lawn service guys. You get the picture.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 15, 2007 10:58 PM | Link to this

Disney World - I curse the place - went there the first summer it was open (I was 13) and hated it. Went back when my kids were young, and still hated it - hot steamy Orlando (or Lake Buena Vista - same as Atlanta and Decatur, no?), standing in endless lines for crappy, overrated rides, and severely overpriced food (though the food wasn’t bad). I will never go back again, unless, of course, it is with my grandchildren (none yet, thank God).

“This is My Country” - Grinch, you are forewarned - do not post the lyrics again - you will be banned. DOB says so. Now, as for this past weekend, I had the pleasure of watching the games, and reading a book during commercials - didn’t hear it once. Are you sure this is our country? I wouldn’t know.

MBATL agree with you on the 1996 WS - call it a choke job, call it a melt down, call it whatever you want. As a Braves fan, it was the biggest disappointment of all time. And no, Robert, don’t want to hear you weigh in how Bobby lost this one - it was a total team failure - pitching, hitting, fielding, etc. Yes, Leyritz’s homer was a dagger, but we were still ahead at that point (until the ball flew over th fence, anyway) - total team failure, and that one belongs in our Hall of Shame.

Robert(JITB) - agreed with the biggest choke/meltdown being the Stankees letting the BoSox come back from 0-3; Gawd, that was an awesome series - loved hearing Steinstupid vent after that one! SWEET!!!!

Stinky - you call yourself a Jack N. fan? You don’t include Easy Rider and Five Easy Pieces in your top 10 list?

“I’d like to have some wheat toast with that”

“We don’t have wheat toast”

“Do you have tuna salad on wheat toast?”

“Yes”

Well, then give me a tuna salad sandwich on wheat toast, and hold the tuna salad”

(paraphased)

I can’t remember exactly what he said about the waitress having a chicken between her legs, but, it was classic.

Hot women in movies - JJS - Diane Lane is one of them. But, for my money, NOTHING beats Catherine Zeta (Douglas) opening number, song, dance, swagger, sashay and absolute dominance of the screen opening scene of “Chicago”.

Ballpark rankings - can’t weigh in o this one much - haven’t been to that many - saw many, many games at the Launching Pad - but can’t say it was a great park - unless you’re a 9 to 35 year old kid, and haven’t seen MLB anywhere else - it was an awesome experience for me, every game, no matter how bad we were.

I did like the old Busch Stadium ( last of the cookie cutter stadiums to survive), especially after they put grass back into the stadium - something about walking up to the stadium and seeing those arches around the top ring of the stadium inspired me.

The worst of all time was Candlestick - froze my butt off there the 3 times I went - once in the middle of July - hated that place.

JJS - you cannot swear off pie - did you not realize it is one of the essential food groups in the new “Food Pyramid”? Never mind that the square feet of the base of the pyramid is calculated by multiplying length times width, nor that the circumference of a circle is calculated by determining “pie R squared”. Everyone knows that “pie R round”.

By Tomahawkin

January 15, 2007 11:33 PM | Link to this

Da lauching pad was da spot in the early 90’s. Dat crowd atmosphere was off da chain, and It all started when everyone and dey mama used to do the chant on the Marta Shuttle Buses at Five points

Gotta go cook my Salmon, check U guys later…

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 11:47 PM | Link to this

Jayhawks are going to kill me, winning in overtime Saturday and down to the wire tonight….

Scalp ‘em, you beat me to the mention of Five Easy Pieces, one of my personal Jack Nicholson favorites. I’d also move The Departed straight near the top. But really strong list, though, especially Chinatown (all-timer), Cuckoo’s Nest, Carnal Knowledge, and Shining, Postman… Wow, has the man done some great movies, or what? And I hate to admit it, but I loved A Few Good Men, just for the Jack-Cruise confrontations. Epic….

Lew, agreed on Al Lang Stadium _ good old ballpark, and that downtown St. Pete area has really become pretty nice in the past decade.

However, I have no idea what you’re talking about in trying to differentiate Disney/Orlando/Lake Buena Vista/Kissimmee blah blah blah. Lew, it’s all one huge sprawling city. That’s like saying Coral Gables isn’t part of Miami, or Sandy Springs isn’t part of Atlanta, or Manhattan Beach isn’t part of L.A.

In this day and age, most major cities, for all intents and purposes, are metropolitan areas encompassing many incorporated or unincorporated towns and cities. I’ve never heard anyone in Florida not consider Disney/Lake Buena Vista to be part of Orlando, not during 13 years of living in Fort Lauderdale (although I guess by your strict definition, when I lived in Hollywood, Fla, or Pompano Beach, I didn’t live in Ft Lauderdale).

Sorry, man, but I just don’t see your point.

By Lew

January 15, 2007 11:52 PM | Link to this

A while back, DOB said a prominent Brave was a sometimes blogger on this site. Of course DOB wouldn’t say who it was, but I think it is Bobby Cox and I think Robert is the mystery Brave.

By David O'Brien

January 15, 2007 11:52 PM | Link to this

Oh, and how ‘bout Terms of Endearment? Classic Jack scenes in that one, which I thought was purely a chick flick until I watched it with my ex-wife. Great movie.

A few other great Jack flicks (or at least great Jack performances): Anger Management, Hoffa, The Two Jakes, Broadcast News, Ironweed, Witches of Eastwick, About Schmidt (I like it, but I know some people didn’t), and a low-budget gem: The Crossing Guard, Sean Penn’s directorial debut. Jack was strong in that one.

By Robert

January 15, 2007 11:55 PM | Link to this

Good article on Coxenheimer (sorry, Shottenheimer)

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9930768/2

Reading it, I am fairly certain that sometime about sixty years ago, veterinarians performed surgery to seperate Siamese twin donkeys

By Lew

January 15, 2007 11:57 PM | Link to this

DOB-Just being technical. It really is in a different county. Quite honestly, all I care about for central Florida is that they have no more hurricanes and that the property values keep going up.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 16, 2007 12:00 AM | Link to this

Gotta relate this story - a take off of Jack’s diatribe about the wheat toast - went to Mexico for 2 weeks in 1978 - and, down there, you didn’t drink the water (no bottled water back then) - we get back to the States, in Brownsville, Texas - in the middle of a drought - we go to the Denny’s by the motel we stayed in - and were told they had no water to serve - and believe me, I wanted a tall, cold, iced glass of water, in addition to every American food entree’ on the menu. As a tribute to Jack, and his wheat toast logic, I asked if they had iced tea, and the waitress said yes - I told her bring me some iced tea, and hold the tea - she had NO appreciation for the humor of the situation - and no, I didn’t get the freakin water. Of course, she didn’t get no freakin tip either.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 16, 2007 12:04 AM | Link to this

DOB:

It is clear you spend way too much time watching movies and listening to music - when do you “work” dude? :-)

Lew - I agree with you on our “mysterious Braves blogger - I made the exact same comment the other night here - I think Bobby is baiting us to show him the love, in response to Robert’s outrageous comments.

By Lew

January 16, 2007 12:09 AM | Link to this

Scalp Em-It’s the only theory that makes sense. Just let him try to deny it now. Now I know why Robert didn’t want me to get him a BC autograph at Spring Training.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 16, 2007 12:14 AM | Link to this

Lew:

Would it have been “Best wishes to me - Bobby Cox”?

LOL

By Tony Almeida

January 16, 2007 12:19 AM | Link to this

Jack?? Jack??? There is only one Jack….that is JACK BAUER…BOW DOWN BEFORE HIM!

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 16, 2007 12:24 AM | Link to this

Oh - a mention of minor league parks earlier - anybody been to Rickwood Field in Birmingham? It is the oldest existing park in the country, and has been “retrograded” to 1920’s splendor, with the old timey signs around the outfield fences, the old manual scoreboad, etc. Our team (Double A Barons) plays a “throwback” game every year, complete with flannel uniforms, wooden bats, little gloves, etc- really cool experience, especially if you show up in a suit and hat for the game - forget about sweating - this is the way it was!

By Robert

January 16, 2007 12:40 AM | Link to this

I just dont understand why my comments are considered so ridiculous

Shottenheimer is 5-14 in the playoffs. Like Cox, he didnt make the boneheaded plays in the playoffs.

But Shottenheimer is held accountable - because football fans understand that a team’s mental approach and preparation is a reflection of the head coach

But in Atlanta, Cox is continually held above account. It is just un-frickin-believable.

Guarantee you when the donkey finally retires and the Braves subsequantly improve, it’ll be attributed to global warming or some such ridiculous proposition, because to Atlanta fans, holding Cox blameable for anything is heresy or anathema

It’s amazing how many fans here point and laugh at the escapades of the Bills or the Oilers, or when the Yankees blew a lead. But folks, at least those teams ultimately held the leaders accountable - those follies led to change (will lead in the case of the Yanks - Torre is done if they dont win a WS next season, NO EXCUSES accepted).

But Cox is blameless

Frickin ignorant blissfully unaware donkey screwing up everything he touches with a Braves logo on it for going on 17 years (and did it to Toronto before that) and he is blameless

Absolutely unbelievable

By flbravesgirl

January 16, 2007 12:48 AM | Link to this

Just got home from a weekend trip so I’m joining this conversation very late…

For those traveling from out of town, I’ve ridden Marta and walked to the ballpark many times. You’re in a crowd of people so there’s no reason to feel unsafe in an unfamiliar place. If you are going strictly for Braves games, there are 2 decent hotels next to the ballpark, just off the interstate. One is a Country Inn & Suites and I’m not sure of the other, it recently changed “brands”.

DOB, thanks for clarying the Bradenton/Sarasota question. Glad you like McKechnie. You probably enjoyed it before the rebuild too: oldest spring training park (70+ years), all the history. The Cards trained there in the Gashouse Gang days and Dizzy Dean lived here & owned a gas station in town. My dad grew up 1 street over from the ballpark (the neighborhood was a lot better then) and when he was a little kid, the Braves trained there. He lived in that ballpark and never forgave Mr. Perini for moving them to West Palm Beach. I liked going to the old place knowing it was just the same as when my dad was a kid but I don’t miss the wooden bleachers or scary bathrooms. At least they rebuilt on the same footprint (and modeled the facade on that of the old train depot). Spring training is one thing I’ll miss about Florida.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 16, 2007 12:50 AM | Link to this

Bobby, er, I mean, Robert - we love you man!!!!! Keep it coming!

By Head Coach

January 16, 2007 12:54 AM | Link to this

Unquestionably , the biggest choke job in American professional sports history has to the the Buffalo Bills losing four straight super bowls (1990-1993). The Yankees losing four straight games to the Redsox after being up three games to none in the 2004 ALCS is unprecedented in baseball history. The Braves losing four out of five world series gets an honorable mention and in light of the aforementioned fact , we should all be thankful for 1995.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 16, 2007 12:55 AM | Link to this

FBG:

((((Red Velvet Cake Grope))) -thanks for the recipe - gonna try it out this weekend - thank goodness for chunky frosting - never was considered a mondo cake decorator here!

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 01:06 AM | Link to this

Lew, Scalp ‘em, interesting theories on Robert/Bobby. Makes some sense….

OK, gonna go watch second Jack Bauer Power Hour, since I had to tape the 9-10 episode while watching KU beat the evil-doers from Mizzou.

By The Grinch

January 16, 2007 01:40 AM | Link to this

Robert, you’ve got me convinced…Cox is the Schottenheimer of baseball. No doubt. But just as Marty led the Chragers to a 14-2 record in the regular season this year (and similarly career-wise), and Bobby a similar such fate in the regular season…what to do? The Chargers may well set a new precedent by firing Marty after a brilliant regular season, since he’s now 5-13 in the playoffs. There really is no excuse at this point. But damn, man, how do you fire a coach with that record? I agree, though; it makes sense in both cases, but only if you have the answer in place. Who do you have in mind to do a better job? The regular season standards are high in both places, as much as the post-season standards are low. What do you do? Who’s gonna step up to the plate and take it deep?

By jed

January 16, 2007 01:50 AM | Link to this

DOB: i’m fine with diaz. my concern is with langerhans playing 75 percent of the games. he only hit .241 in a platoon last year. dreadful. if langerhans hits .280, his defense will justify his playing time, but do the braves intelligentsia think this will ever happen? was he suffering from an injury last year that we didnt know about?

By Robert

January 16, 2007 02:46 AM | Link to this

Well now Grinch, ya just opened 2 cans O woims

First off, we gotta settle whether Cox is the Shottenheimer of baseball, as you claim, or whether Shottenheimer is the Cox of football as I claim

Or we just agree that they are both dillweeds

Siamese-twin donkeys seperated at birth

As for who would replace him (be it Bobby Shottenheimer or Marty Cox). You dont worry about that to the point that it makes you not fire the problem. Fire the donkey, then go hire a replacement.

I have long contended that ANYBODY would be better than Cox.

I think maybe Cox and Shottenheimer should trade jobs.

Now, if they did, and they replicated each other’s previous records, I’d say it proves how bad they were at their original jobs. Their supporters would, however, claim that they are geniuses at managing two sports

“But damn, man, how do you fire a coach with that record?”

You walk down to the barn, lure him over by sticking a carrot thru the fence, and rub his ears gently while saying

“Now Bobby (or Marty), ole fella I’m afraid I got some bad news”

By Ray

January 16, 2007 09:08 AM | Link to this

A few remarks in regards to the ‘96 series. IF any of you have seen Leyritz talk about that at-bat. He clearly said Wohlers HAD him. He could not catch up to his fast ball at all. “I fouled one pitch straight back and I thought I cracked my bat. But I was no where close to catching up to it.” Then of course the hanging pitch.. ughhhh we all know. Interesting comments Leyritz had about that at-bat. Now as far as all that want Bobby out as manager, seriously who are you going to go after? I know TP is a legitimate choice. But of those that are TRULY available who is better. I do not agree with every move Bobby makes but it comes down to those that work and those that don’t work. Unlike football where there are clearly right and wrong decisions. I am not one to make a change for the sake of making a change. IF the Braves can replace Cox with a BETTER manager then by all means. Should we have more than one WS ring YES. I guess it is Bobby’s fault on Wohlers pitch. YEP that was him that said throw it.. oh no wait that was him throwing the pitch right. And in ‘91 that was Bobby getting deecked going around 2nd base when the freakin ball is in front of you. Nice going Lonnie, basic baseball; but yes that was Clearly Bobby’s fault. Lonnie scores easily game is over. Braves win their first WS but yes that was clearly Bobby’s fault,,, maybe he told Knobloch to deek Mr. Smith. Its a conspiracy.. we need Jack Bauer on it, or DOB.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 16, 2007 09:11 AM | Link to this

DOB,

That was a fun game to watch lastnight. Had to be over 20 lead changes. Mizzou did not show the full court 40 minutes of hell defense like they did against Arkansas earlier this year. But I have a feeling if they would have tried, KU would have beaten them by 15. KU moved the ball extremely well, and Mizzou rushed a lot of 3’s which was reminiscent of some of Nolan R.’s later Hog teams. I could tell that Self had his team a helluva lot more prepared for a running game than the Hogs were.

By Shaun

January 16, 2007 09:22 AM | Link to this

i’m fine with diaz. my concern is with langerhans playing 75 percent of the games. he only hit .241 in a platoon last year. dreadful. if langerhans hits .280, his defense will justify his playing time, but do the braves intelligentsia think this will ever happen? was he suffering from an injury last year that we didnt know about?

Langerhans will be fine. As you said, he’s a great defensive outfielder; plus his career averages are .254 AVG/.347 OBP/ .399 SLG—not overly impressive numbers but pretty good. Something to keep in mind: He’s just entering his prime and he’s been playing part-time. The rate at which he avoids outs is very good. He just needs to increase his power numbers to be a solid everyday player.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 16, 2007 09:24 AM | Link to this

Oh and another thing about the game lastnight. By halftime, I was assured that this is most definitely our country.

Grinch, Hogs and Dogs tomorrow night on ESPNU. What the hell is ESPNU? Is it a regional coverage thing?

By Shaun

January 16, 2007 09:49 AM | Link to this

Robert and Ray and The Grinch,

Power pitching and run prevention are the things that matter most to post-season success. What power pitchers did the Braves have during their run except Smoltz, and maybe Millwood and Wohlers for a very short time? So, why blame Cox more than Schuerholz for Atlanta’s post-season woes?

The Braves had everything going for them from 1991-2005 except what could make them successful in the post-season. (I would argue that if Schuerholz had acquired more good power pitching, maybe the Braves don’t make the playoffs all those years. They may not have had any offense, or may not have had or kept any of the great non-power pitchers like Maddux or Glavine.)

As far as ‘96, does Cox get credit for the Braves comeback against the Cardinals? How did he have his team prepared to come back against a solid Cardinals team but not prepared for the World Series? How did he have his team prepared for the first two games of the World Series but not the other games? Cox shouldn’t be immune from blame or criticism but it seems like the Braves WS loss in ‘96 was more than just Cox.

Roberts whole line of reasoning is flawed—he assumes lack of preparation was the problem in the Braves’ losses and that a lack of preparation is the coach/manager’s fault. Was lack of preparation the problem, first of all, and is it the coach/manager’s fault of individual players aren’t prepared to play? And why does winning/losing in the playoffs fall on the manager alone? Robert’s ideas just make no sense to me.

By Ray

January 16, 2007 09:53 AM | Link to this

Shaun, I agree with you in regards to Langerhans. I think we will be fine in LF. I just get the feeling that someone is going to step up and have a year that no one expected. Not saying an AllStar type year in LF but one that is a nice surprise.

By Ray

January 16, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Shaun once again and this is a record, agreeing with you twice in just a few minutes. Cox gets the blame for the losses but NEVER gets any credit. And the Cards series is a perfect example. There is one particular IDIOT on the radio that has been around forever thinks that of course Glanville is a God but cannot stand JS or BC. We all have our opinions and entitled to them, but when you are sooo jaded and one sided, where is the credibility? Has Bobby made some decisions that we all questioned, of course. Has he made some decisions that have worked very well? Absolutely. Those you always hear, my 3 yr old daughter could have made that move or this move. I do believe that we had good enough teams to have a total of 3 WS championships. ‘91 yes, ‘95 and ‘96 no doubt. Toronto was not going to get beat by too many people. The late 90’s yankee teams were powerhouses.

By Voice of Reason

January 16, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

“Second player needed for LaRoche deal, but who? Pirates, Braves still stuck on Atlanta first baseman.”

Tuesday, January 16, 2007

By Dejan Kovacevic, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

“The Pirates are, by all accounts, casting a wide net in their search for a left-handed power bat, particularly in light of an apparent stalemate in the attempt to land Atlanta Braves first baseman Adam LaRoche.

And yet, anytime the subject of the coveted bat is raised with a team official, the name that invariably pops up is that of… LaRoche.

To be sure, the Pirates have not given up.

According to sources on each side, general manager Dave Littlefield has remained in touch with John Schuerholz, his Atlanta counterpart. And the essence of their discussions, those familiar with them say, is this: A deal can get done if the Pirates give up closer Mike Gonzalez and another major-league player.

Who might that player be?

The Braves have asked for center fielder Chris Duffy, but the Pirates flatly refused on the ground that they believe they have no adequate replacement for the near future. Andrew McCutchen, the organization’s top prospect, will open next season with Class AA Altoona.

The Braves also have asked for starting pitching. It is not clear which of the Pirates’ four young starters — Zach Duke, Ian Snell, Paul Maholm or Tom Gorzelanny — they sought, but it likely was Maholm. It probably does not matter, anyway, given that the Pirates have displayed a clear distaste for moving any of those starters in one-on-one deals, much less a two-for-one.

Those two rejections would seem to quash any chance of acquiring LaRoche, 27, who had 32 home runs and 90 RBIs last season. But the Pirates’ continued insistence — behind the scenes — that a deal can get done suggests otherwise.

It would appear that the most likely compromise is for Littlefield to throw in another reliever, given that the bullpen is the Pirates’ only area of depth and that Atlanta has a general desire to add pitching. But no names have leaked to support this notion and, on the Braves’ end, there continues to be little — or no — urgency displayed involving a LaRoche trade.”

By Shaun

January 16, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

Ray,

Yes…and there are too many factors that go into winning and losing in the post-season. Yes, Cox is one factor, but how about the ability of players, the types of players (power pitchers, closer, etc.), the opponent, good/bad fortune (ex: the Divine Bounce on the Tony Clark ground-rule double in the 2004 ALCS that may have costs the Yankees the series). When you consider all this, how can you say Cox is the primary reason for the Braves’ losses? Makes absolutely no sense. It’s like praising/blaming a president for a good/bad economy—oversimplification.

By Ray

January 16, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

No doubt. Yes any manager gets some credit/blame. I have heard Sparky Anderson and Tommy Lasorda say that in any given season the manager has the direct responsibilty of the outcome in about 40 games. In the playoffs, things like the Clark bounce, bad baserunning etc, are all out of the control of the manager. You get two hot pitchers in the playoffs and that will carry you a long way. Ask the Marlins what a couple of hot starters can do to a much better yankee lineup. Look at the D’backs and yanks series. Alot of people love LaRussa and if you compare his record to Cox as far as post-season I am pretty positive that LaRussa, the “self-proclaimed” genius has been blanked more times than any mgr in baseball. Any good mgr and yes I believe Cox is one of the best mgr’s in all of baseball is one decision away from looking smart or foolish. Again the ol saying not a right or wrong decision.. just one that worked or didn’t work. SO again for all of the BC bashers, who would you like to see in here leading the team? Guys that ARE available.

By Lew

January 16, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this

I see that Eric Johnson played in Atlanta last night. Did anyone go to the show? If not it’s a shame. He put on an excellent show when I saw him several years ago. I also got to meet him after the show. A nice guy who has a substantial interest in electric blues, a la Peter Green. Ray- Langerhans will be fine given regular playing time, which he really wasn’t given last season. He did have some nagging injuries, but see what everyday play did the second half for LaRoche.

By Voice of Reason

January 16, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this

Lew:

I saw Eric Johnson several years ago at Center Stage (or whatever it’s called now) and it was one of the best shows I ever saw. He is a player who is rooted in Texas blues, with a much more jazz-like technic. Not sanitary, though, still very much artistic. It’s the tone though… Custom wiring in his Strat, simple pedal board, custom amps and custom amp switching. I’d go on but I already sense some eyes beginning to glaze over…

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 16, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this

Where’s Matthew??? Anxious to hear your take on the soap opera that is the Univeristy of Arkansas football program. Good grief, They’re acting like a bunch of strutting gobbler turkeys up there on the hill. Welcome to the 2007 U of A P*ssing Contest.

By BB FAN

January 16, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

Robert,

The Chargers did everything right during the regular season. They only had 15 turnovers over the 16 games. They did not commit the stupid personal fouls either. How is it the coaches fault that they decided to turn the ball over 4 times and commit some absolutely stupid personal fouls (one in particular) in the playoff game?

Your constant blaming of the head coach is ridiculous. If a team makes errors and can’t execute in the playoffs but have all season long, then what more can the coach do? How much more can he “prepare” them? The players are all adults and should be held responsible for their actions.

Schottenheimer’s decision to not go for the 48 yard field goal early on was not a bad one at all. The wind would have been in the face of the kicker. The challenge was questionable but the team personel in the booths are the ones who have replays. They let him know which plays to challenge.

The Patriots gave the ball away as well on numerous times but made the plays when it counted. Troy Brown forced the fumble with 6 minutes left. That was a great play on Brown’s part. It had nothing to do with the coach.

It was not the coach that fumbled the punt return. It was not the coach that dropped numerous passes that were right at the numbers.

It was not the coach that head butted the Patriots player when the Chargers would have taken over on downs. Instead the Pats got 15 yards and a first down.

The point is the players simply did not execute the things that they did all season long.

That is how it’s been for the Braves in the post season as well. When players do not execute the same things they did all season long, they are not going to win. The Braves have not had the clutch hits at times and did not pitch well other times.

Only one team (out of 30 or 32) can be called champion at the end of the year. It’s not easy at all. That is why when a player wins one, they consider that to be the best moment of their career.

In today’s world (free agency, ect.), it’s rare for a team to win multiple championships like the Patriots and Yankees have done. What the Patriots have done is even more imprssive than the Yankees due to the salary cap. The Yankees have had an unlimited payroll to keep winning.

By Matthew

January 16, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this

I’m here, Hillbilly. I was just thinking yesterday, man the NBA might be okay to watch instead of the UA football program. For Malzahn, he did what he thought was best for his career. Cool, but I wish he’d waited until after signing day (or at least not on the same weekend that Ziemba, the huge 5 star o-lineman, visited Auburn). As for HDN and Broyles, I’m sure they are doing what they think is best, and from what I heard Malzahn was going to be de-moted to co-coodinator at AR regardless. They are bringing in David Lee, who used to tutor Mustain and who brought Tony Romo to the NFL. I don’t know a lot about next year, but we’re still entering the year as the #15 team in the nation with the country’s best two running backs and a monster offensive line. I still like our chances next year, but I’m still pretty nervous.

By TennesseePaul

January 16, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

DOB: Saw Richard Swift last night. Fabulous show. I’m still working on that CD for you. It’s in Apple mode now and can’t be moved off the computer to a disc. At least, so I’m told. This is what I get for passing it out before I backed it up. Now it’s like pulling teeth to get it back. If you ever get a chance to see this man in concert, take it. Very good. Very good indeed.

Going through the posts I one about old minor league parks. Spartanburg SC has one of the oldest ones in the country. Not the oldest, but pretty old. It’s called Duncan Park. It’s not that amazing to see really. Not like mini-Fenway in Greenville. But it’s fun to watch a game there. Last time I went was when the Phillies A ball team was there. That was ages ago. Don’t know if any team is using it now.

By Ray

January 16, 2007 12:01 PM | Link to this

Robert, that is my point exactly. Nice head butt penalty. Same with BC, I didn’t see HIM throw the pitch that gave up the 3 run homer to Leyritz. Now had he called the pitch.. okay might have some legs to the blame. But any good head coach or manager has one primary job and that is to get his team in a position to win. If he does that, then its up to the PLAYERS to execute. It is that simple

By Head Coach

January 16, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

Mike Gonzalez is a closer. Bob Wickman is a closer. RH Rafael Soriano and LH Macay McBride are the two primary setup men. Why would the Braves need another closer or relief pitcher ? It doesn’t add up. I think the Braves are after another starter like Maholm or Duke from the Pirates and thats probably why this proposed trade is stuck in the mud. Lets don’t forget Hampton is coming off tommy john surgery and Davies has struggled so far , although Cox still believes in him and I do to. Shaun’s right. With Andruw , Francoeur , Diaz , Langerhans , Bohn , Blanco , Harris and Clark. There is no shortage of outfielders.

By Ray

January 16, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

Robert, that is my point exactly. Nice head butt penalty. Same with BC, I didn’t see HIM throw the pitch that gave up the 3 run homer to Leyritz. Now had he called the pitch.. okay might have some legs to the blame. But any good head coach or manager has one primary job and that is to get his team in a position to win. If he does that, then its up to the PLAYERS to execute. It is that simple

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 12:15 PM | Link to this

Voice of Reason: Saw that you posted Dejan’s story and just wanted to let anyone interested know what I know. I spoke with Dejan (pronounced “Dan,” by the way) yesterday afternoon, let him know what I know from this end (he did same with me for what he knows from that end). Wasn’t anything new on either side, so I didn’t write anything.

Gist of it is, the Pittsburgh people keep writing about it because their GM’s taking heat for having millions of available funds to spend this winter and so far having done nothing of significance. Folks up there really want to see Pirates make a big move, and LaRoche is most-potent bat and best glove of the lefty hitters they’ve considered, so that’s who most up there want to see them go get.

They had an ownership change (not a switch, really, but more power in hands of fewer owners), and there’s speculation as to whether GM Dave Littlefield will or is taking more heat now from ownership to make something happen (unclear if he is or not).

Basically, it’s same names in trade rumors over and over _ the principles LaRoche and Pirates lefty closer Mike Gonzalez. But the Braves aren’t going to do it straight up or just for Gonzalez and a prospect who probably wouldn’t help their team next year. They’re not going to trade LaRoche if they believe it hurts next year’s team. They want Gonzalez plus another impact player or pitcher.

Braves did, indeed, as for CF Chris Duffy, who they’d like to play in LF and have ready to move to CF if and when Andruw leaves. But Pirates flatly refused Duffy, and I was told again yesterday by someone who knows at this end that Pirates aren’t going to deal Duffy. That, plus their reluctance to trade any of their top young starters, leaves seemingly very little chance of the deal happening, since Pirates don’t have any other available, affordable pieces that could really help Braves.

Maybe the Pirates cave and give up one of their young starters, but so far no sign of that happening.

As for the Cox argument … hey, ya’ll have at that one. Same old stuff rehashed, to me. Haven’t seen one thing new on either side of argument. Only thing I know for certain is, he’s viewed outside of Atlanta almost universally in a far different way than he’s viewed by a lot of vocal critics here, he isn’t getting fired, and he’s managing in 2007, and possibly several more years beyond that, though he and Schuerholz currently under contract only through 2007 season.

I’m not getting involved in the debate again, just because it seems rather pointless and tiresome. But have at it. Nothing wrong with discussion, even if it’s same stuff.

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

Oh, and arbitration figures will be swapped later today between players and unsigned arb-eligibles. Braves only have two _ LaRoche and Villarreal. Both will likely sign before it goes to hearing, of course, since almost every player does, and Braves have only had a couple of arbitration hearings in their history.

By Shaun

January 16, 2007 12:26 PM | Link to this

BB FAN,

I agree…Also sometimes things just happen in single games or short series. Maybe if the Chargers play the Patriots 100 times, the Chargers win 80; but for some reason they just didn’t play well for that one game. This is especially true in sports like baseball or hockey, where any team can beat another team in on any given day. I mean, it’s not much of a shock if the Devil Rays sweep the Yankees during the season, so why should we be overly shocked when an okay team beats a great one in the playoffs?

Robert, there is so much to consider besides just the manager/coach or, for that matter, just the players and their talent.

Some inexplicable things just happen that have nothing to do with strategy or talent—the Tony Clark bounce, a ball being hit a half-step out of the reach of the thirdbaseman instead of right at him. I guess that is sort of the point I was trying to make yesterday in terms of one-run games—records in close games (particularly one-run games) really don’t tell us a whole lot about the talent of teams because a lot of times the ball literally bounces in a way that cannot be explained.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 16, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this

If Gus was on such a tight leash like everyone is saying he was, then I don’t blame him a bit for leaving. The running game was and will be our bread and butter while McFadden and Jones are around. I honestly don’t see this change affecting our offense in ‘07 if, in fact, HDN WAS in control of the offense anyway like everyone assumes he was. Good luck to Gus at Tulsa. I really hope this doesn’t set off a butterfly effect for potential signees or current players for that matter, if you know what I’m getting at. These are the Days of our Lives…..

By TennesseePaul

January 16, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

Just caught up to the Payne posts on Ks. I’m not sure why Eric Young vs Jim Thome is the only option. But I’ll agree. I would rather have Thome over Young. But, to take it further, I’d want Gwynn over Thome. 25 Ks or less. Or how about Tommy Holmes and his 1945 season. Or his whole career for that matter (5000 AB, 122 Ks, 11 seasons)
I’d go further but I see a lot of responses already. I see you had to slide in the 1-run games. This is the edge which you hang around too much. The edge that puts stats too high on the list. It’s at this point when people say you need to lay off the stats some. 1-Run games would be very difficult to analyze statistically from year to year due to the constant changing of the the opponent and self. As DOB mentioned, the team itself could see a change in personel, or lose a key game early to set a tone. The opponent has also changed to better themselves in these situations. Just because it isn’t readily noticable using year to year statistics of the game, doesn’t mean a teams record from season to season is entirely a result of luck or chance. I’d stipulate that it is no more a matter of luck or chance than any other play in baseball.

By Shaun

January 16, 2007 12:39 PM | Link to this

While I’m on somewhat a roll, and to sum up my argument from yesterday, a lot of one-run games probably have more to do with random happenings rather than talent. The example I keep using is the Tony Clark bounce. And how many times do we see a pitcher make a perfect pitch but the ball winds up being a hit. Or a ball is just out of the reach of an infielder instead of catchable. Those types of things could lead to just one-run, so close games don’t necessarily reveal a lot about talent or bullpen or good managing or momentum or confidence; a lot of times it just reveals that the ball has or hasn’t bounced a particular team’s way. More times than we like to admit the outcome of games have nothing to do with who is the better team or who has the momentum or the better bullpen or the “clutch” hitters. Yes, talent is going to lead to a lot of wins, but on some days it is just who gets that lucky bounce. That scares us, but it’s true.

By TennesseePaul

January 16, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

Dejan (pronounced “Dan,” by the way)

Good to know. I thought he just really liked spicey mustard.

By TennesseePaul

January 16, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this

Yes, talent is going to lead to a lot of wins, but on some days it is just who gets that lucky bounce. That scares us, but it’s true.

I don’t think anyone disagrees with this (the amount of fear alluded to in that comment is debatable). I think what we disagree with is the notion that, “on some days it is just who gets that lucky bounce” being every single 1 run game.

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 12:54 PM | Link to this

Make that THREE, not two Braves who’ll swap arbitration salary figures today (barring a late agreement to avoid the process): I forgot Rafael Soriano, who can probably expect about $2 mill.

By Voice of Reason

January 16, 2007 12:56 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the update, DOB. I was just trying to stir the pot a bit since the stale old BC argument seemed to have floated back to the top. Not much news with which to do that…

By bergian

January 16, 2007 01:05 PM | Link to this

David, I seem to hear less and less about arbitration each year. It used to be some teams would have hissy fits paying players 3,4 times what they did the year before(And sometimes this happened when a guy was 8-15 with a 4.70 ERA) but I don’t hear about the fights like I used to? Why is this? Is there a limit to how much a raise you can get via arbitration nowadays? It would seem LaRoche would be due a huge increase after last year….

By Shaun

January 16, 2007 01:17 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

I’d rather have a guy that makes most of his outs on strikeouts than a guy who makes significantly more outs on groundouts or flyouts.

One-run games are difficult to analyze statistically because the results could be a result of talent, bullpen, good management, confidence, momentum, good situational or clutch hitting, or just the ball bouncing a certain way or a combination of things. If a team losses a lot of one-run games, is it because of a bad bullpen or bad management or misfortunate bounces or some combination of factors? It’s hard to say.

This is a reason why certain stats are useless; stats like ERA or hits allowed for pitchers or sometimes batting average for batters, among others. As I said, there’s not a whole lot of difference between a ball just out of a fielders reach and one that finds a glove.

That’s why it’s better to look at things like walks, doubles, homeruns, BB/K ratio for hitters, K/BB ratio for pitchers, HR allowed for pitchers, how many balls a fielder gets to compared to other fielders at his position and to look at certain tools. Those are the things that players can control that will help lead to wins.

But there are a lot of things that absolutely no one can control that will lead to wins and losses—things that don’t relate to talent or stats or scouting or momentum or clutch hitting or anything like that.

By rammerjammer

January 16, 2007 01:22 PM | Link to this

I think the Pirates are in the same situation Alabama found itself in with Nick Saban. He was talked about so much, for so long, that they just HAD to have him. Anything else would have been seen as a failure.

Now the Pirates have a seemingly endless interest in LaRoche, to the point that getting anyone other than LaRoche - or not getting him at all - will be viewed as a letdown.

While I wish JS wouldn’t do the deal, I do think he’s waiting the Bucs out and believes - as do I - that they’ll eventually cave, though Dejan’s article implies their ownership is so arrogant as to NOT do anything just to spite people.

Must be truly awful to be a Pirates fan. Or beat writer.

By Shaun

January 16, 2007 01:30 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

The problem is we don’t know how many one-run wins or losses are a result of “that lucky or unlucky bounce” and there is just no way to know. There are a few of those types of bounces that happen in the course of every game. A lot of times those bounces don’t matter because one team does enough things to beat a team by several runs. But in close games those bounces (luck) matter more.

You have a league where one team can just clobber the ball against anyone and their pitchers can just blow the ball past hitters, those lucky or unlucky bounces aren’t going to matter much. But in a league where a lot of teams are evenly matched, those bounces make a great deal of difference in the outcome of games.

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 01:32 PM | Link to this

Berigan, you don’t hear much because it’s all pretty cut-and-dried. Players are slotted by comparing them to others of similar service and accomplishments, so there’s not much a team or player can do. If the gap between the two sides is so wide when figures are swapped, then they can go to court and let the arbitration panel which salary is awarded. But if it goes to the panel (a hearing) it’ll be one or the other salary, not a compromise.

And if one side knows its figure is more out-of-line than the other’s, it knows the hearing will likely go the other side’s way. That’s why most parties involved come in only a littler higher or lower than what could reasonably be expected, hoping to get a compromise slightly in the side’s favor before the matter goes to a hearing in February.

Most teams try to avoid the hearings, which are usually acrimonious by nature, with the team pointing out why this player isn’t worth the money’s he’s asking for, etc. It can “poison the well” for future negotiations when a player gets the hammer of free agency.

The first year of arbitration is the biggest percentage raise, because most players go from making $400,000-$500,000 to making $1.5 mill or much more. LaRoche should get about $2 mill or a little more, same for Soriano, based on their performance the past couple years. Dontrelle set the record when he settled on a contract for $4.35 mill in his first year of arb eligibility, but remember he’d been pretty phenomenal for three seasons.

By Ray

January 16, 2007 01:34 PM | Link to this

Okay Shaun you had me until you made the comment you would rather have a guy that makes most of his outs by strikeouts. YES I will agree there are times when a strikeout is better than a batted ball out such as I would rather have one of our pitchers strike out instead of hitting the ball and getting the dp. HOWEVER, putting the ball in play is more times than not a better situation. This is where we can come up with stats that make our differing points.

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 01:44 PM | Link to this

Hillbilly, I was just WISHING that Mizzou would keep running. KU just has way too much depth and athleticism for Mizzou to benefit from a full-court game for anything more than spurts. Eventually, Tigers would be so ragged they’d have had a slew of turnovers to go with all those missed 3’s.

That said, I like what Mizzou coach has done with that squad, and I think he could have them in league contention in another year or two. They’re far tougher than they were under Quinn Snyder, and a far better team than their 0-4 Big 12 record indicates.

By Ray

January 16, 2007 01:48 PM | Link to this

DOB as you know and just pointed out we don’t see as many hearings as we used to. I remember a few Braves pitchers in the past talk about it. I had one that told me at one time it was pretty ugly. And IF, this is a big if my memory serves me well, Steve Avery went to arbitration one time and went to the hearing and coming out of it he said he felt like he could barely pitch for a h.s. team. Not worth the aggrevation and the hurt feelings. Plus as you stated we don’t see the gap as large as we used to.

By bergian

January 16, 2007 01:49 PM | Link to this

Thanks David, I guess teams and players finally wised up. I can’t recall names, but I sure remember hearing 15+ years ago about teams trying to make the players look like they were not very good, and the players leaving for good when they became free agents.

By Shaun

January 16, 2007 01:54 PM | Link to this

Ray,

It depends. As I said, Eric Young put the ball in play more than Thome, but Thome is much better because of power and walks. His out-avoiding (by way of walks) and power more than make up for the difference in strikeouts. I should revise that: I would rather have a guy who hits for a lot of power, walks a lot and strikes out a lot than a guy who doesn’t strikeout much but doesn’t walk a lot or hit for much power.

A low strikeout hitter isn’t necessarily a great thing if avoiding strikeouts is the only skill he possesses. And a high strikeout hitter isn’t necessarily a bad thing if he possesses a lot of other skills.

TennPaul, Tony Gwynn was a great hitter not just because of his low strikeout total. He also walked a decent amount of times and hit a decent amount of extra-base hits (mostly doubles and quite a few triples).

Adam Dunn strikes out a whole lot, but he’s still a great player because he has so much power and walks so much. Same with guys like Reggie Jackson and Bobby Bonds. As a matter of fact, check out the single-season strikeout leaders—it’s full of very productive hitters, guys I’d much rather have than a lot of low strikeout guys.

By TennesseePaul

January 16, 2007 01:56 PM | Link to this

Payne: If a team losses a lot of one-run games, is it because of a bad bullpen or bad management or misfortunate bounces or some combination of factors? It’s hard to say.

That doesn’t mean you just chalk it up to luck/chance as you have attempted to do. Just because you can’t find a suitable answer in basic stats doesn’t mean it’s chance. Again I’d stipulate that the out come of a 1-run game is as much reliant on luck/chance as any other game. And for that matter, I’d say the out come of any given game is more a factor of talent, skill, managing, etc, than luck/chance. I don’t know the break down, or if there even is a break down, but I’d imagine that, if it’s 9 times out of 10 going to be talent deciding a 2 run game, then it’s 9 times out of 10 deciding a 1 run game.

I’d rather have a guy that makes most of his outs on strikeouts than a guy who makes significantly more outs on groundouts or flyouts
By that statement then, you’d rather have the guy strike out than hit a sac fly, or ground out but still knock the run in (remember, the runner stays put when Mighty Casey strikes out.) No wonder you’re so eager to chalk up those 1-run games to chance.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 16, 2007 02:11 PM | Link to this

DOB,

No doubt in my mind. In a couple of years, Mike Anderson will have recruited a team built to run. Look back at what he did with Alabama-Birmingham in four years. They made a lot of noise in the NCAA Tourney.

Hey, I saw a new Shooter Jennings video on t.v. a minute ago. “It ain’t Easy”- with cameo appearances by Jessi Colter and Shooter’s girlfriend, actress Drea de Mateo….smokin’ :o

By TennesseePaul

January 16, 2007 02:18 PM | Link to this

Payne: 2 things. You are setting up a loaded question. You set the options up to be a difference between a really good player and a slightly above average player. And secondly, it’s a matter of line up construction. I wouldn’t want to bat Thome’s 100+ Ks leadoff.

By DrH

January 16, 2007 02:19 PM | Link to this

OK sorry to offer a comment related to the original article…but I have to say every single time I hear or read Turner Field referred to as “The Ted”, I want to vommit.

DOB’s own quote far above, from Saturday afternoon - “…But why does every ballpark have to copy every good idea from every other ballpark, until it all seems so redundant and ubiquitous…”

To my memory, Turner Field opened soon after Jacobs Field and a handful of local sportcasters (Jeff Hullinger comes to mind…sorry I just puked again…) for some reason tried to make their mark by starting a trend and referring to Turner Field as “The Ted”.

I know the DOB comment I quoted is in reference to on-field events, etc, and not ballpark monikers but I feel it applies nonetheless. Why can’t Atlanta have/do anything ORIGINAL rather than copying things other cities do? Why can’t we ever have a successful sports team that doesn’t have some stupid and ridiculous “theme” that sports fans in other cities roast? (Dirty Birds, Gritz Blitz, Tomahawk Chop, etc etc etc)…

OK so anyway great column DOB, seriously, you’re the best writer at the AJC far & away. Go teach Schultz something, if Bruce Levenson is thru taking him to the woodshed.

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 02:45 PM | Link to this

Hillbilly, you mean Drea de Mateo from the Sopranos? Damn. Like father, like son with them Jennings boys…. tip of the cap to Shooter. And always, of course, to Waylon. They didn’t come much finer than Jessi Colter.

By Shaun

January 16, 2007 02:47 PM | Link to this

TennPaul,

Chance/luck/bad or good bounces play a role in virtually all games, which is precisely why you can’t tell a lot about a team by looking at close games. I don’t necessarily chalk up close games to only luck/chance, but I think chance/luck plays a factor in all games. The closer the game, the more the chance/luck matters.

Say, for the sake of argument, one in five runs is a result of chance/luck (or pick your specifics, doesn’t matter). If a team losses 5 games in a season by a 6-5 score, does that tell us much about that team? I know they were 0-5 in those games, but they could have just as easily been 5-0 or 3-2 or 1-4 or whatever with a little luck.

It’s kind of like someone takes away 10 percent of your income every week. Not much if you make $1 million a week. But a lot if you are making $100 a week.

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 02:49 PM | Link to this

DrH, I agree on “The Ted” _ I can barely write it, I dislike the term so much. Sorry, it just sounds so corny, so precious, so hackneyed. No offense to those who use it, but you’re right _ The Ted, “The Jake,” “BOB” (when Chase Field was “Bank One Ballpark”) and “The Trop” … just stop the insanity, please.

Good point on that subject, DrH

By Shaun

January 16, 2007 02:58 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

I’m not going to get into the lineup construction debate…too much.

If two players get the same amount of hits, same amount of total bases, same amount of double plays and triple plays, same amount of steals and caught stealing, same amount of walks, but one strikes out more than the other, then, yes, I would rather have the guy that puts the ball in play more. All I’m saying is strikeouts don’t necessarily tell you a lot about a player’s production. A lot of people overrate strikeouts for hitters but strikeouts aren’t such a big deal. That’s all I’m saying.

I think this all started with Kevin Maas. If he had come up to the big leagues and continued to walk and hit homeruns, but strikeout a lot, he would have still been productive. The strikeouts alone didn’t make him a flop. It was the strikeouts plus the inability to hit for power or walk.

By Stinky

January 16, 2007 03:05 PM | Link to this

Grinch and others who may be interested - here is my top ten list of fishing worms:

By Matthew

January 16, 2007 03:28 PM | Link to this

Any of you see this?

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/pressreleases/pressrelease.jsp?ymd=20070116&contentid=1779912&vkey=prnym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym

Schowenweis is supposed to be pretty good at getting out lefties. I suppose we should just hand over the division without a fight, hm?

Also, Jorge Sosa has signed with the Mets. I’m glad that the homer ball is coming to our division. 18 times a year to see that hanging breaking ball.

Hillbilly, ESPNU is a similar deal to ESPN Classic. It’s available on the upper-tier cable and satellite packages. I used to have Classic but downgraded DISH packages to save money (that little boy of mine is expensive…)

I’m going to listen to the game on ARSN radio. If you go to www.arsnonline.com, you can find the radio station listings for your area.

http://www.arsnonline.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=54

Go Hogs and Braves!

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 16, 2007 03:57 PM | Link to this

Thanks Matthew,

I’m on DirecTV and I don’t have internet at home, so if it’s not on my DirecTV package, I’ll just have to miss it.

DOB,

Yeah that’s the one from the Sopranos. I think they’ve been together for a good while now. In the video, they’re layed up in the bed, mugging down.

By Stinky

January 16, 2007 03:59 PM | Link to this

Oops, posted just a little bit quick last time. Grinch, do you have a better top ten than this? I especially like the red wigglers.

1. red wigglers

2. night crawlers

3. grubs

4.

By Shaun

January 16, 2007 04:01 PM | Link to this

If two players get the same amount of hits, same amount of total bases, same amount of double plays and triple plays, same amount of steals and caught stealing, same amount of walks, but one strikes out more than the other, then, yes, I would rather have the guy that puts the ball in play more…well, maybe not. I mean if the guy that makes more contact is slow, I may consider taking the other guy to avoid a lot of double plays.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 16, 2007 04:08 PM | Link to this

Matthew,

Meant to say I don’t have internet or a radio at home (you just think a little boy is expensive, wait til you have a little girl). It’s too cold to sit in the truck in the driveway and listen.

By Matthew

January 16, 2007 04:12 PM | Link to this

Hillbilly:

Do you have a radio in the house? If so, that ARSN site give the station listings in your area. Good luck, and if you don’t listen to it, I’ll tell you all about it on Thursday.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 16, 2007 04:13 PM | Link to this

Stinky,

There ain’t nothing like a good red wiggler. Wasp larvae works good, too. Does that count as a worm?

By Ohio Brave

January 16, 2007 04:14 PM | Link to this

Just a few comments on the stadium rankings…I have been to about a third of the stadiums and think its a great discussion topic. I went to yankee stadium this year and would agree that the only reason that the ranking should be that high is b/c of history. I thought ranger stadium was great, but the lack of atmosphere made the experience aseptic. Cleveland is great b/c of the downtown bars/restauants right there, but the upperdeck is a bad, bad deal for the fan. On the other hand Sox park is underrated. The lower level concessions and atmosphere is a top rate baseball experience. Think vendors with frozen margarita backpacks and beermen per aisle. Wrigley was much better in the late 90’s when Brave fans could still get tickets in large numbers and make noise there to pay back the stinkers when they do that here. I still go every year, but when I want to see Brave fans at another stadium I go to Cinergy. This year I am eagerly looking forward to the return of the Braves to Jacobs Field for the first time since 95.

By Matthew

January 16, 2007 04:17 PM | Link to this

I gotcha. You could back the truck up to the front door and turn the radio up loudly and…

Oh nevermind.

I’ll tell you about it Thursday. Enjoy that little girl.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 16, 2007 04:27 PM | Link to this

Stinky,

Ironically your worm list could also be used to describe Grinch’s preference in women. (J/K Grinch) :)

By Sir Stealth

January 16, 2007 04:41 PM | Link to this

I liked the barbecue discussion that went on earlier on this blog. I’ve eatin’ ‘cue in East and West North Carolina, South Carolina, Memphis, East and West Texas, Kansas City, Dreamland in Alabama, and many other locations that I was foolish enough to think might serve up something legit.

DOB is right, East North Carolina is the absolute best, narrowly edging West North Carolina. Wilber’s in Goldsboro, North Carolina is the high shrine in my opinion.

If you’re from Kansas City and haven’t been there or somewhere in Carolina of its ilk, please don’t try to argue that yours is supreme. And that goes double to any Pecos Bill’s who’ve barely been outside of Texas but think their state knows barbecue best. I’ve eatin’ at the best joints in places like Junction, Beaumont, and Monahans and the most legit ‘cue in The Lone Star state is just some Sloppy Joe compared to the 20th best place in Lexington, NC.

That being said, I still give these people credit for loving their home product and knowing that barbecue is more than some sauce on chicken or a tailgate cookout. The barbecue in Texas or shrines like Arthur Bryant’s in KC is superb eating and its great to have the various regional styles. The different flavor is what makes this country great.

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 04:51 PM | Link to this

No figures released yet or agreements announced between Braves and their three arb-eligibles, but will be announced shortly, one way or the other.

Now I’m curious to see what LaRoche will ask or settle for, since just got word of one-year, $4.4 mill contract for Colorado’s Matt Holliday who has same three years service as LaRoche and made $500,000 last year when he (Holliday) hit .326 with 34 homers and 114 RBIs last year.

Better numbers than LaRoche _ .285-32-90 _ but not enough to more than double what LaRoche should get. Especially since LaRoche totaled 20 homers and 78 RBIs in 2005, to Holliday’s 19 and 87. They had comparable numbers as rookies in 2004.

Stay tuned

By N8

January 16, 2007 04:52 PM | Link to this

DOB (and anybody else interested)

I ran across this article at si.com earlier today, and since I had commented on what the article is about, I found it incredibly amusing, to say the least. Funny stuff. But it makes you think.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/steve_hofstetter/01/15/standup.guy/index.html

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 05:04 PM | Link to this

Soriano’s going to sign today, but I think Braves are going to swap with other two guys, barring a late change.

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 05:14 PM | Link to this

Sir Stealth, I’d agree K.C.’s joints are next-best to Eastern N.C. style. In addition to the holiest traditional BBQ spots in Kansas City _ Athur Bryant’s and Gates _ I love Jack Stack and Smokehouse in K.C.. And my brother and a good friend, who both live in K.C., tell me that Oklahoma Joe’s (odd name for a place in K.C., yes) is also outstanding, comparable to those other joints there.

By Stinky

January 16, 2007 05:15 PM | Link to this

There’s been days in the trailer where all we had to eat was red wigglers and mayonnaise on white bread. We never had to eat wasp larvae but I imagine with some Arby’s sauce or some mayo it would be okay in a pinch. Lately, we’ve had plenty on the table. Now that the Missus found work dancing we eat better than we ever did before. Grinch, we could be buddies if you like beer like I do and don’t mind who buys it for you.

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 05:16 PM | Link to this

Braves just made it official: Soriano signed one-year deal, leaving the other two _ LaRoche and Villarreal _ as only Braves unsigned arb-eligibles. Figures to come, both on Soriano’s deal and the swapped arbitration numbers for the other two.

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 05:30 PM | Link to this

In the exchange of arbitration figures, LaRoche asked for $3.7 mill and Braves offered $2.8. That’s higher than we all expected, and means they’ll probably settle at around $3.2-3.3 mill before a hearing.

Villarreal’s figures were $1.3 mill and 860,000, so figure on about $1.1 mill for him if and when they settle

By TLJ

January 16, 2007 05:34 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Due to Matt Holiday signing for 4Ml do you think the Braves may decide to trade LaRoche even up for Gonzalez to keep the salary at $ 80Ml??? I sure hope not. I agree with their position of securing at least 2 impact players.

By MBATL

January 16, 2007 06:12 PM | Link to this

God, what on earth is wrong with using an abbreviated name for a freakin’ ballpark? Didn’t know we stood on such formality here.

Fine to refer to The Beastie Boys as the Beasties and Dave Matthews Band as DMB, but not a ballpark?

Anyway, David O’Brien, do you think that LaRoche’s arbitration filing hurts our chances of trading him on our terms? Or would the Pirates have expected similar numbers?

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 06:15 PM | Link to this

Braves officials tell me that’s right about where they figured LaRoche would come in after conversations leading up to today. It’s where they had him slotted, which would explain why they didn’t have enough money to do things like make a higher offer for Ward or go after a journeyman lefty on the free-agent markeet, etc. They just don’t have much if any wiggle room left in their payroll.

By Robert

January 16, 2007 06:30 PM | Link to this

“How is it the coaches fault that they decided to turn the ball over 4 times and commit some absolutely stupid personal fouls (one in particular) in the playoff game?”

It’s called mental preparation. For example, once you’ve intercepted a pass with 4 minutes to go in the game, why risk anything with a runback? Fall on the ball and be done with it. Once you’ve induced a three and out, what need for a head butt? The Chargers were not mentally prepared.

If the coach’s job is to put his players in position to win, then having players in at the wrong times or situations, or having players not mentally ready, means that the coach/manager has failed at his job.

Cox and Shottenheimer are just wonderful at letting superiorly talented teams run on autopilot to cruise thru a regular season. When they have to play teams with anywhere near equal talent in a win or go home scenario, their stupidity and inability to properly prepare their teams for battle costs their team time and time again

By Robert

January 16, 2007 06:42 PM | Link to this

“IF the Braves can replace Cox with a BETTER manager then by all means. Should we have more than one WS ring YES. I guess it is Bobby’s fault on Wohlers pitch”

1.Ok Ray, you’re hired as manager 2.YES Wohlers’ pitch was Cox’s fault. YES!!! Because it was COX that had Wohlers in there in the 8th inning. YES it was COX’s fault. His job was to put Wohlers into a situation where he could succeed. He put Wohlers into a situation he was not accustomed to. He set Wohlers up to fail. If Wohlers hadnt thrown that hanging slider, there’s a good chance he wouldve tired in the ninth and lost the game that way (because he didnt routinely pitch more than one inning)

Why do you worry about who the replacement will be? Who the replacement will be doesnt affect the fact that Cox is incompetent. Cox needs to go even if NOONE is found to replace him. A vacancy at manger is better than an incompetent buffoon at manager

By Robert

January 16, 2007 06:46 PM | Link to this

“As far as ‘96, does Cox get credit for the Braves comeback against the Cardinals?”

Not exactly. Remember who was managing the Cards - Mr 2 for 16 or whatever he is in the playoffs, LaRussa

Spy vs Spy

By DonCoburleone

January 16, 2007 06:53 PM | Link to this

College Basketball talk in January on a Braves blog? I didn’t think NCAA basketball started until the middle of March…

By Robert

January 16, 2007 06:54 PM | Link to this

“he assumes lack of preparation was the problem in the Braves’ losses and that a lack of preparation is the coach/manager’s fault. Was lack of preparation the problem, first of all, and is it the coach/manager’s fault of individual players aren’t prepared to play?”

Let’s deal with the second part first. The answer here is clearly yes. To start with, if the manager’s job is to put players in in situations where they will succeed, then it is the manager’s job not to play anyone who isnt properly prepared.

Now, was it lack of preparation? I am not basing this on the results of one series or one game. I see a pattern - a pattern where superiorly talented teams are outperformed and outhustled year after year. This makes me think that there is some basic flaw, a flaw in an aspect of their game plan and/or execution of the game plan that relates to some common denimator. That common denominator is the donkey, and his donkeyesque philosophy of the playoffs being nothing but a crapshoot. Tell me something, how motivated are YOU going to be to go out and kick some Yankee behind when your leader tells you that we’re gonna go out and flip a coin to see who wins?

Another example. It was Cox’s job to have Chipper ready for the postseason in ‘04. Cox failed, because he didnt consider the possible negative consequances of letting his player chase a meaningless personal stat goal. 9 times out of 10, he probably gets away with that particular masterstroke of ignorant idiocy, but this time he didnt. Therefore, his player Chipper wasnt in a position to succeed in the playoffs. I.e - manager has failed

By Robert

January 16, 2007 06:57 PM | Link to this

“I have heard Sparky Anderson and Tommy Lasorda say that in any given season the manager has the direct responsibilty of the outcome in about 40 games.”

I’d bet my paycheck we’ve been 10-30 or worse in those games every year since 1991

By Robert

January 16, 2007 07:08 PM | Link to this

“And how many times do we see a pitcher make a perfect pitch but the ball winds up being a hit. “

In the grand scheme of things, infrequantly

“Maybe if the Chargers play the Patriots 100 times, the Chargers win 80; but for some reason they just didn’t play well for that one game”

If they both have the same manager, maybe.

If Belichek plays Shottenheimer 100 times in the playoffs, Belicheck wins 80 - and I dont care if he has the 76 Buccaneers and Coxenheimer has the late 70’s Steelers

If Torre plays Cox 100 series in the playoffs, Torre wins 95. The other 5 are the accidents where there is a Tony Clark bounce, or where perfect pitches are clubbed for hits or where Bobby Valentine fills because Torre gets sick

By Robert

January 16, 2007 07:15 PM | Link to this

The coyote isnt gonna catch the road runner (but is gonna get hurt trying)

The aardvark isnt gonna catch the ant (but is gonna get hurt trying)

Bozo isnt gonna beat Albert in a chess match (but is gonna break my heart trying)

I had learned the first two by the time I was 4

I realized the third in game one of the 99 WS

At least Tom n Jerry mixed things up a little bit because every so often, they’d be buddies teamed up against the bulldog

By DonCoburleone

January 16, 2007 07:21 PM | Link to this

“It’s called mental preparation. For example, once you’ve intercepted a pass with 4 minutes to go in the game, why risk anything with a runback? Fall on the ball and be done with it. Once you’ve induced a three and out, what need for a head butt? The Chargers were not mentally prepared.”

“If the coach’s job is to put his players in position to win, then having players in at the wrong times or situations, or having players not mentally ready, means that the coach/manager has failed at his job.”

I agree with the majority of what you said there Robert, and I do put some of the blame on BC for the Braves only winning 1 WS in the 90’s. However, often times coaches (like BC and Marty) do put their players in the best position to win the game and they just simply fail. I mean, for example, was it really Marty’s fault the Browns lost to Denver in ‘87? What exactly was Marty supposed to do to stop Elway on “the drive”? I believe there are just some athletes who can rise to the occasion and overcome any deficit regardless of how “well prepared” or “disciplined” or “fired up” the other team is. I think Elway did it to the Browns in ‘87, Jack Morris did it to Atlanta in ‘91, Glavine did it to Cleveland in ‘95, Randy Johnson did it to NY in 2001, and Vince Young did it to USC in 2005… I know there are more I’m forgetting too, but you get my point…

By MBATL

January 16, 2007 07:23 PM | Link to this

DOB, thanks (got it out of my system).

Robert, who should Bobby have put into the game in the 8th inning of game 4? Wohlers had struck out the side in the 9th in game 2; and was our best reliever in ‘96: 39 saves, a 3.03 era.

Further, he had a LOT of post-season experience, including a 1.80 era in the ‘95 World Series. He had pitched in the PS in 91, 92, 93 and ‘95

It’s easy to say it was a bad decision, that Bobby didn’t give him a “chance to succeed,” but tell me, absent the benefit of knowing the outcome, why it was a bad decision.

By DonCoburleone

January 16, 2007 07:43 PM | Link to this

And to add to what I said a minute ago, not only are some players capable of simply “willing” a team to victory, but some players are just flat out NOT able to “will” their team to victory. As good as Marino and Kelly were and Manning is, you will never hear anyone (especially me) argue that any one of them is the greatest quarterback in history… Because they were never able to step up their own game to the point where the other team simply could not stop them….

By DonCoburleone

January 16, 2007 07:50 PM | Link to this

And may God help us all coming up, cuz February is BY FAR the slowest month in all of sports. Even March isn’t that great (even though I do get into March Madness). But I just wish I could just go to sleep after the Super Bowl and wake up on April 1st. Just in time for baseball regular season, NBA playoffs, and NHL playoffs to start… My God I love NHL Playoff Hockey…

By Robert

January 16, 2007 07:59 PM | Link to this

Don Coburleone - Yeah, I get your point. Sometimes you run into a guy who just wont be denied.

SOME-times. It’s the exception and not the rule

The thing is, you let that one slide - and then someone says that on another occasion it was the freak bounce that did us in, then the deek, then the wide strike zone, then the wind blowing in the wrong direction, then misalignment of the major planets

And you end up with a theory that says that the Braves have been the victims of an incredible series of bad luck events - Oh whoa is us and none of it is Bobby’s fault.

If you wanna believe this, fine. Next time Bozo squares off against Albert, you take Bozo, and you can make up any excuse you want as long as you pay off your bet

By Robert

January 16, 2007 08:17 PM | Link to this

“It’s easy to say it was a bad decision, that Bobby didn’t give him a “chance to succeed,” but tell me, absent the benefit of knowing the outcome, why it was a bad decision”

Thank you for asking that question

The answer is very simple. The team had great success in the regular season. During that regular season they had guys whose job it was to get the ball from the starters to the closer. When it’s late and starter is gone but it’s not the ninth yet, you give the ball to one of these guys, just like you did all season

The reason it was a bad decision is that now all of a sudden, in a game of huge import, you are suddenly asking a guy to do a job he is not accustomed to - you are putting him in unfamiliar ground.

I dont think anyone would confuse Wohlers with a rocket scientist. If you are going to put him in this unfamiliar position, why in the name of god would you choose to do it in what is to date the biggest game of the season?

In 96, these guys were Bielecki, Clontz, and McMichael

Specifically,in game 4 Bielecki had pitched a part of the sixth and the seventh. Why are McMichael and Clontz suddenly not good enough? (especially considering that when extra innings rolled around, Clontz was now good enough to go in then)

I dunno. On the game tying two point conversion attempt, why didnt the Patriots let the punter snap the ball directly to a guard and let him try to run it into the end zone?

Why didnt Cox just trot Belliard out the mound for the 8th? I mean who cares if he’d never pitched before.

By journalist jimmy smith

January 16, 2007 08:26 PM | Link to this

this journalist is just checking in … only to find that this journalist has been posting for hours! imagine that! jimmy smith can now post without a computer! oh, well … most of you know it is not jimmy smith posting. journalist wonders why stinky/sda/etal has nothing to say on his own? why must he use jimmy smith’s name? oh, well … plenty to go around. just be careful when you read a post labeled journalist jimmy smith from hereon … probably the whiny one pretending someone likes him. now, baseball … will adam laroche make more than three million dollars next season? he can go a huntin’ now wherever he wishes. soon, he will be charging us to go a huntin’ at his ranch. then, we can get him to autograph the carcass of whatever we kill. sport is wonderful.

By Robert

January 16, 2007 08:34 PM | Link to this

Let me weigh in on the strikeout arguement.

Without a shadow of a doubt, the strikeout is the worst possible out.

Now, if you allow someone to make arguements based on comparing apples to oranges, then all kinds of twisted logic can make us think Adam Dunn is a better player than Tony Gwynn

The comparison isnt Thome striking out vs EY not striking out

The comparison is also not a play that results in one out vs a play that results in more than one out

If you argue that the strikeout isnt so bad because the double play is worse, then I come back at you with the strikeout,throwout double play being the worst double play - apples to bananas to kiwi fruit

The comparison to make is player X striking out vs player X making ONE OUT in any other way.

Now, the point that folks like Shaun make, that in an overall scheme of things, run producing ability has to be compared against out making tendancy (by whatever means in either case) - To paraphrase, how many empty outs is it worth if every so often a guy gets on base. How many MORE empty outs is it worth if every so often he doesnt just get on base but gets two bases, or hits a home run?

This concept has been addresed. It’s called OPS. It isnt perfect, because it doesnt address the contribution of steals. (now consider another quandry - what percentage of CS’s is the “right” tradeoff where the ney benefit of all the successes exceeds the negative from the caughts) -

It rapidly becomes a situation where too many variables that are too unpredicatble in any given situation are involved for us to be able to do anything more than make rough guesses.

But that DOES NOT change the fact that for any given player in any given situation, the strikeout is the worst possible single out outcome of an at bat.

WHY? Because it affords the least chance of contributing to the creation of a run

On the flip side, the walk is the ultimate pitcher sin.

Dont let the confounding factors that make it difficult to use pure theory to recreate or predict every situation make you lose sight of what is and isnt a pure truth

In other words, all the stats in the world arent good for squat if you dont know how to analyze them properly to be able to dsicern what they really reflect or mean

By MBATL

January 16, 2007 08:36 PM | Link to this

McMichael couldn’t get an OUT in game 3 the night before, giving up 3 hits (1 HR), 3 runs, in 0 IP. Clontz and Bielecki also pitched in that game (one night previous).

Somehow, I suspect that if Bobby had used one of them, and it hadn’t worked out, you wouldn’t be giving him an ‘atta boy on the decision.

By Don E

January 16, 2007 08:37 PM | Link to this

DOB

If it’s true that the Braves want Gonzalez AND Duffy for LaRoche and the Pirates have balked, then have the Braves tried to add another player with LaRoche to make the deal work? Or, is it simply that the Pirates don’t want any of the other players the Braves have offered with LaRoche?

By Stinky

January 16, 2007 08:39 PM | Link to this

I know the shame of a man withered in manhood.

By journalist jimmy smith

January 16, 2007 08:47 PM | Link to this

SHREVEPORT, La. (AP) - It’s both a surprise and a mystery. At Caddo Parish’s Chimp Haven, where retired male chimpanzees all get vasectomies, a female chimp has turned up pregnant. Chimp Haven managers knew something was up when they could not find one of their chimps last week.

Teresa, who’s been at Chimp Haven for the past year and a half, was missing during the morning rounds. Later, she appeared with a newborn chimpanzee in her arms.

“Well, we were all just a little bit surprised when we heard the news,” said Linda Brent, a spokeswoman for Chimp Haven.

Teresa was in a group with 17 other chimpanzees - seven of them males.

Now Chimp Haven will have to determine paternity. “We’re going to be doing a paternity test, just like you would do on people,” Brent said.

Workers have started collecting hair samples from the chimps for testing -and are looking at at least one ajc blogger who’s had some recent problems at home.

now, baseball … oh, the humanity! laroche making three million dollars!

By Robert

January 16, 2007 08:52 PM | Link to this

Don C

Again I agree with a lot of what you say. Yes there are some athletes who can rise to a huge occasion. These are usually the same guys who can elevate the entire team around them

And there are some guys who just cant, or dont.

Dominique Wilkins is a GREAT example. He scored a lot of points, and made a lot of highlight reels, but he never stepped up and just flat beat somebody - never was the impact player like Jordan or Barkley or Isiah Thomas

And in certain cases, like we agreed before, a guy can just hunker down and not be denied. If this happens and I lose to a Jack Morris or a Randy Johnson or a Joe Montana, so be it.

But the Braves lose to a Livan Hernandez, who has never been confused with Jack Morris. Or to a Chuck Knoblauch, who couldnt even throw the ball to Jack Morris. Or they give away to a Jim Leyritz, who couldnt hold Jack Morris’ jockstrap

Who you let beat you says a lot about a team. When who beats you is usually yourself or some other mediocrity, that’s an indictment of the leadership on the team

I have said on occasion that the deek of Lonnie Smith suggests the team was lacking in fundamentals preparation. However, I have never counted the 91 Series as one of the ones the Braves shouldve flat out had.

The 91 and 92 teams overachieved. Or did they? There was a lot of young talent that came into its own in those seasons. Maybe they didnt overachieve so much as they were underestimated by the experts (the same ones who overestimate Cox)

I go back to 1990. Russ Nixon’s version of the 1990 Braves finishes 1 game behind Bobby Cox’s version. Who is to say the 91 and 92 Braves wouldnt have likewise been a game better under Nixon than under Cox?

You can ridicule that suggestion if you like. But show me the evidence that says “This just cant be”

Another comparison. The 81 and 82 Braves. Essentially the same team, except for the manager. Cox’s 50-56 1981 version sits 11 games behind Joe Torre’s 89-73 1982 Braves

Ridicule that one as well, if you like. But deny it you can not

By Robert

January 16, 2007 09:03 PM | Link to this

“Somehow, I suspect that if Bobby had used one of them, and it hadn’t worked out, you wouldn’t be giving him an ‘atta boy on the decision.”

I have 16 years worth of history on my side when I contend that if McMichael or Clontz had pitched the 8th and HAD come thru, then the donkey wouldve found some other imbecilic way to hand the game and the series to the Yankees

By dcarp23

January 16, 2007 09:03 PM | Link to this

DOB-Do you know anything about this Elijah Dukes situation? Clearly he is a troubled player, but a talented one as well. Where might he end up?

By AdirondackDave

January 16, 2007 09:11 PM | Link to this

DOB - If the Braves budget is as tight as you suggest, and it probably is, about not having enough money to compete for Ward, isn’t this the stark reality: the Braves couldn’t accept and pay a second impact player, even if the Pirates offered one?

By Robert

January 16, 2007 09:16 PM | Link to this

In other news, Bobby Cox made a public appearance in Shreveport today, signing autographs at the airport while TSA officials searched his carry-on luggage, which was found to contain two empty bottles of banana flavored eggnog and a box of defective condoms

By Lew

January 16, 2007 09:20 PM | Link to this

I still think Robert is really Bobby Cox. I also think Stinky is about to have another disassociative episode.

By flange1

January 16, 2007 09:40 PM | Link to this

Hi Lew,

What do you mean about to?

By MBATL

January 16, 2007 09:43 PM | Link to this

Robert, who SHOULD have been put in in the 8th? Please, make an argument, or just acknowledge that player performance may actually have some role in the outcome of games. (not just Wohlers’ performance, but Leyritz’s too).

I agree that the home run off of Wohlers s>>cked. Just like you, I REALLY wanted a championship! But I just don’t see how you come across blaming BC for it. He had his best relief pitcher in the game in a crucial late-inning situation.

Please, no more generalities … what else should he have done, and why?

By N8

January 16, 2007 09:56 PM | Link to this

I think all of the Cox/Shottenheimer comparsisons are funny. You know why? Because I’m a FRICKIN Chiefs fan too. Let me tell you, the 90’s (other than 95), were a lot of fun.

In actuality, they were fun SEASONS to watch, but man alive. TALK ABOUT POST SEASON FAILURES, agains inferior teams. OUCH!

I thought 95 was MY year. Braves win the WS. Chiefs win homefield throughout in the AFC, only to lose 10-7 against the INCREDIBLE Jim Harbaugh led Colts. NICE!

Anyhow. Not to upset you all, and agree with Robert. But since I’ve been a BIG fan of both franchises for most of my life, I have ALWAYS compared the regular season success/post season failures of Coxenheimer (I like that Robert. LOL), very closely. I think what Cox has done in the regular season over a 14 year period (especially with all the division titles), is FAR MORE impressive than Shottenheimer’s regular season records. But man. Like I said, their lack of being able to win the big one (yeah, I know Cox won in 1995 - kinda like Robert says, it was against a guy even MORE stubborn than him in Hargrove). But what does Shottenheimer have? 200somthing victories (most all time) WITHOUT a SB berth, MUCH LESS VICTORY. Yikes.

OK. Since NOBODY commented on the article I linked earlier, I’ll post the link again. C’mon people, this is GOOD STUFF.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/steve_hofstetter/01/15/standup.guy/index.html

By N8

January 16, 2007 10:11 PM | Link to this

“Or to a Chuck Knoblauch, who couldnt even throw the ball to Jack Morris.”

You can hate Robert, or some of you can even love him. Me? I’m somewhere in the middle. But whatever you’re feelings about the man, the ABOVE quote is DAMN funny!

Nice job Robert.

By Robert

January 16, 2007 10:14 PM | Link to this

MBATL - I just addressed this very question. Please scroll up.

N8 - Cox’s birthdate is listed as May 21, 1941, Schottenheimer;s is Sept 23, 1943 - I think that’s the day the vets did the surgery to seperate the two Siamese twin donkeys

By Minerva

January 16, 2007 10:18 PM | Link to this

Is this the ajc guest book for Ralph the whale shark? I’d like to wish Ralph well in repose and let him know I enjoyed going to the aquarium and looking at the fish and if Ralph did swim by where I was standing I want to thank him very much for the nice day at the aquarium. Thank you for letting me say a few words over Ralph. I think this guest book is a really good idea and I am impressed that your baseball writer would host something like this. He deserves an award. Thank you. Minerva.

By Robert

January 16, 2007 10:24 PM | Link to this

The article on the HOF voting was very interesting.

Lemme ask you a question. If a guy who voted for Hal Morris or Dante Bichette for the HOF tells you Bobby Cox is a great manager, how much weight do you give that opinion?

By MBATL

January 16, 2007 10:28 PM | Link to this

Robert, who’s the best manager in MLB?

By Stinky

January 16, 2007 10:29 PM | Link to this

NOT ME! NEVER! Why do you accuse me? So DOB said I blogged under 19 names - and he named a bunch of them - I’m down to half that many now. Mostly I just blog with myself and you never know.

By N8

January 16, 2007 10:35 PM | Link to this

“N8 - Cox’s birthdate is listed as May 21, 1941, Schottenheimer;s is Sept 23, 1943 - I think that’s the day the vets did the surgery to seperate the two Siamese twin donkeys”

Hee Haw!

btw: I forgot to throw in, that since I live up “north” I’m a T-Wolves fan. (since we were on the topic of teams that FAIL in the post-season)

For the record, since it’s January and I AM EXCITED for baseball to begin, my “Coxometer” has been reset to zero (as it does every year in the off season). So for right now, I use the Hee Haw when referring to Marty. For the record, I also was rooting for NEW ENGLAND. Just can’t bring myself to go for a division rival (especially one that is coached by and ex-coach). So in some weird, dimented kind of way, I enjoyed watching the Chargers choke! Good stuff. Company in misery (or however the saying goes). LOL!

btw:

AdirondackDave

You asked:

“DOB - If the Braves budget is as tight as you suggest, and it probably is, about not having enough money to compete for Ward, isn’t this the stark reality: the Braves couldn’t accept and pay a second impact player, even if the Pirates offered one?”

Good question, I was thinking the same EXACT thing. I guess the ONLY thing that could explain it, is if Gonzalez isn’t going to earn as much as LaRoche is going to, then it might kind of “even out”.

By The Grinch

January 16, 2007 10:36 PM | Link to this

N8, good article. I agree; no way in Hades does Bichette desrve to get in the hall. Those here who say Marty didn’t get grossly outcoached apparently didn’t watch the game (or if they did, they didn’t know what they were looking for). No, Marty’s not responsible for missed field goals and things like that. He WAS responsible for that interception/fumble. That’s a rule you learn in high school: 4th down, bat it down. Any coach worth his salt would’ve made sure his dumba$$ DB’s had their head in the game at that point. It’s also his fault his team was celebrating with 10 minutes to go, when they didn’t have much of a lead. Against Bellichek? Oops. A better coach would’ve been shouting at everyone to keep their head in the game. A better coach wouldn’t have panicked and abandoned the best running back in the league (who had been averaging over 5.5 YPC so far in the game) and start passing every down with plenty of time left in a tie game. And a better coach wouldn’t have wasted a timeout (that proved to be critical at the end) challenging a play that was clearly the right call and not going to be overturned. They were the number one seed for a reason; they were the best team. Talent doesn’t mean squat if your coach chokes; ask Arthur Blank. Cough, gag, choke. No other way around it.

By N8

January 16, 2007 10:43 PM | Link to this

Robert

“Lemme ask you a question. If a guy who voted for Hal Morris or Dante Bichette for the HOF tells you Bobby Cox is a great manager, how much weight do you give that opinion?”

Good point. But….OBVIOUSLY those votes for Bichette came from guys that know him (or covered him on a regular basis). To me there’s a BIG difference in making a comment out of ENVY as opposed to being a “homer” and voting for the guy that played for the team you cover.

It’s kind of like if you have an UGLY wife or girlfriend and somebody else’s wife is better looking (possibly deceivingly good looking), but better looking than you’re significant other. You may say “man is she HOT, she is far and away ABOVE everybody else in hottness”.

Where with that same “not so goodlooking wife” you nominate her for HOTTEST WIFE OF ALL TIME.

See what I’m getting at? Pretty lame comparison? YES. But to the point none the less (and maybe a little funny. LOL!)

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 10:49 PM | Link to this

Damn, Robert, you’d been away long enough that I had forgotten how every single blog ended up being steered back to your obsession with Cox.

While I appreciate anyone with your intelligence frequenting the blog, it really, really is maddening to have to skip over so many posts. Because no one can argue with you about this. You simply will give no ground.

Oh, well. Maybe you’ll tire. I can’t imagine what motivates you to keep it up, since very few if any folks here seem to buy your arguments and you’ve said nothing new about this particular subject in … well, since when? I mean, is that all there is? You hate him, he’s terrible, they’ve lost in postseason after postseason because of him. Fine. But is that it? How many times can you repeat it?

Again, I do appreciate your passion and intelligence. But it’s just so redundant. So mind-numbing. Watching the Braves lose every October and reading the same posts about Cox’s failures over and over. I guess these are just painful conditions we must live with. But I beg of you, please try another topic or come up with something fresh on the subject.

Carry on. I’m certainly not going to try to stop you.

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 10:56 PM | Link to this

N8, Adirondack Dave: Chris Duffy has less than one year of major league service; he’ll probably make about $400,000 in 2007.

Guys with under three years’ service make so little, and that includes several Pirates pitchers.

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 11:09 PM | Link to this

DonC, saw you question the inclusion of college basketball talk on Braves blog in January. I ask you, would you prefer we go back and forth discussing one man’s repeated, staggeringly redundant posts about how bad a manager Bobby Cox is?….

Speaking of … Robert, just noticed that earlier tonight you started a post with, “Let me weigh in on the strikeout argument.” I just about fell on the floor. Why would you want to stray from the real crusade, just when we were getting so close to a consensus and … uh, nevermind.

By Robert

January 16, 2007 11:29 PM | Link to this

MBATL - Best manager in baseball right now, in my opinion, is Leyland. Guy you gotta look at as an interesting newbie with not enough of a resume yet is Girardi

Now I have opened up the opportunity for a defective line of reasoning to support Cox - namely the fact that the Braves bested the Pirates in 91 and 92. Folks will ignore the fact that the Pirates were grossly outgunned (not to say they didnt have some good players, but they were grossly outgunned, on both sides of the ball). And folks will ignore the fact that one of those accident hits that Shaun referred to resulted in Bream’s famous dash home (can you use the words Bream and dash in the same sentence together without a negative in there somewhere?)

Most managers are fairly neutral. A few are really good, and a few are really bad. Most of the really bad ones are so because they have issues with interpersonal relationships rather than with strategy (Bowa is the leading example). The few that rival Cox for worst all time have are bad with people and dumb to boot (Valentine and Hargrove)

I have always thought highly of Jack McKeon and Whitey Herzog.

It’s guys that do more with less that are impressive, as opposed to just counting division titles

This brings to the forefront another major fallacy that has been sold to Braves fans. Folks, there wasnt a single team during the run that wasnt way above average in talent. For starters, the ‘04 team is the ONLY one that didnt have at LEAST two front line starters. EVERY Braves team from 1993 on has had at LEAST 3 future HOFers on the roster. More disturbing, the great mid 90’s teams (the ones that underachieved the most) had 5-8 future HOFers per year.

91 and 92 are really an anomaly in Cox’s otherwise dismal legacy. Enough so to warrant examining whether he might not have been the catalyst for the turnaround. To me, what stands out is that those teams had a field leader (Terry Pendleton). Coming over from Herzog’s Cardinals, Pendleton gave the team a taste of a winning and heads-up tradition. (as opposed to Cox’s whining and head up your behind tradition)

Let me open the door. Change my mind. SHOW ME something. Dont lemming me what a bunch of writers and good-ole-boy club baseball insiders supposedly say. Give me evidence of what Cox does that wins games

What I see the man doing during games is picking his nose and muttering under his breath about balls and strikes.

Maddux’s penchant for nose picking means we might oughta examine a link between plucking buggars and coming thru in the clutch, but if there’s a more useless thing to do than to argue balls and strikes (because there’s no arguing it, it’s what the ump says it is), then I cant think of it.

How long will I keep repeating the story? Well, how long will the Braves keep dissing their fans by keeping the donkey and trying to perpetuate the fraud of his genius?

And I’ll put a new spin on it when you debunk my current contentions.

As for “I guess these are just painful conditions we must live with.”. WHY? DOB, this is America (OUR country, remember?) Land O opporunity - where we are free to try and improve our lot. Why are you advocating resigned acceptance of the mediocre status quo?

I dont HATE Bobby Cox. I have contempt for his abilities as a manager. But he is a very nice donkey. I’d let my kids ride him at the fair any day (if I had kids)

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 11:47 PM | Link to this

Right on, Robert. Fight the power, brother. Bring down The Man!

(and donkey humor … it’s the best.)

By David O'Brien

January 16, 2007 11:49 PM | Link to this

by the way, 1 minute left in the THIRD OVERTIME of this OkieState-Texas game in Stillwater. It’s 102-100 OSU. For their sake, I really hope they win this thing.

By David O'Brien

January 17, 2007 12:00 AM | Link to this

WHAT A GAME. OSU 105, Texas 103 in three OTs. Freshman Mario Boggan: 37 points, 20 boards, and winning 3-pointer with 10 seconds left in third OT.

By David O'Brien

January 17, 2007 12:15 AM | Link to this

By the way, just a follow-up to earlier question about salaries. Gonzalez signed a one-year, $2.35 mill deal, with incentives that can only push it to a max of $2.55 mill. So if _ repeat IF _ the Braves did a trade with them and got Gonzalez and another young player or pitcher, chances are that their two combined salaries would still be about a quarter-mill or more less than the $3.2-3.3 that LaRoche will likely get.

But you all know I’m certainly not advocating a trade. I’ve stated my thoughts on that enough times.

Just trying to give you an idea of the salary ramifications, that’s all.

By N8

January 17, 2007 12:40 AM | Link to this

DOB

Thank you for the info on the salaries. I suppose I coulda looked them up (ESPN’s website “usually” has salary listed), but that was pretty much what I expected. Again. Thanx.

Robert

I know that technically I shouldn’t “fuel the fire” by laughing at your donkey humor, (sometimes it get’s old), but dude, tonight you are on a roll.

“I dont HATE Bobby Cox. I have contempt for his abilities as a manager. But he is a very nice donkey. I’d let my kids ride him at the fair any day (if I had kids)”

That was CLASSIC.

(DEEP inahale)…..

(DEEP exhale)……aaaaaah!

Spring is in the air! LOL.

btw: my 6 year old son is a HUGE Michael Vick fan. Not too many places around here to get any jersey’s, especially if you DON’T WANT them to be purple and yellow. I suppose I could go online and order one from nfl.com. Unless somebody has an inside line on any stores (that do online business) in the Atlanta area that sell youth NFL gear.

Thanx guys.

L8R

By The Grinch

January 17, 2007 12:41 AM | Link to this

Man, this team would really jam with Gonzalez. I have a feeling JS is gonna surprise us somehow. Number one, make it so. VanGorder going to the Falcons is a good thing. Underrated defensive moves. If the fans/media give this group a chance, I have faith good things are going to come from the Falcons in the next 2-3 years…consitently, for the first time ever. This is a staff that can pay dividens in the long run. Time for more beer.

By Head Coach

January 17, 2007 12:57 AM | Link to this

In the Detriot Tigers postseason wins against the Yankees and A’s , Kenny Rogers the veteran ace went 15 innings , won two games and gave up zilch. Verlander the rookie went 11 innings and gave up 7 earned runs. Verlander went on to lose both game one and game five of the 2006 world series while Kenny Rogers finished up his amazing postseason with 23 total innings of dominance while giving up zero runs and winning all three games that he started. there was a donkey in the Tigers dugout and his name wasn’t Bobby Cox.

By Robert

January 17, 2007 04:13 AM | Link to this

Head Coach raises a fair point. PERHAPS Leyland should have started Rogers in game 5.

Here is why I cant fault Leyland, even tho Verlander didnt come thru

1. He had a REASON - His game plan was to go with what got him there, not to alter his rotation based on very short term results. Keep in mind the Gambler’s past postseason. I mean, Rogers was great, but in the back of your mind, didnt you wonder when Cinderella’s slick new ride was gonna turn into back into a pumpkin?

2.Just as important you had to consider the context. Detroit wasnt gonna win that series. That was apparent by the end of game 3. Heck, they barely got out of game 2 despite Rogers’ stellar start. You watched that series and figured out it just wasnt gonna be. The reason probly had to do with playoff experience, having already exceeded all expectations, and motivation for the Cardinals, all three rolled up and chewed and spit out.

Note also that suddenly the arguement is that Leyland shouldve gone to the finesse pitcher over the power pitcher - the exact opposite of the claim that the lack of power pitching is what doomed the Braves (of course the idea that future first ballot HOFers Maddux and Glavine just dont cut it for the playoffs is ludicrous to begin with, but my point is that going back and forth on this issue does nothing more than create a loophole to exonerate Cox

Put Cox at the helm of the 06 Tigers, or the 91 or 92 Pirates, and those teams dont sniff the first division, much less postseason play.

DOB - I love baseball, and my team is the Braves. You cant know how badly I wish to be able to enter a new season with even the faintest hope that the Braves could win it all. I would so like to be able to question Cox, to just shake him and say “WTF are you THINKING?” (knowing of course that thinking is a foreign concept to the man)

By Robert

January 17, 2007 05:58 AM | Link to this

“As a matter of fact, check out the single-season strikeout leaders—it’s full of very productive hitters, guys I’d much rather have than a lot of low strikeout guys.”

Shaun, I had a little time to kill, so I took you up on that offer.

The top 25 single season strikeout figures have been posted by the following players - the number next to each is their career adjusted OPS

Adam Dunn - 128 Bobby Bonds - 130 Jose Hernandez 88 Preston Wilson 103 Rob Deer 109 Pete Incaviglia 104 Jim Thome 149 Cecil Fielder 119 Ryan Howard 155 Mo Vaugn 132 Mike Schmidt 147 Richie Sexson 124 Mark Bellhorn 93 Mike Cameron 107 Jay Buhner 124 Jose Canseco 131 Dave Nicholson 97 Gorman Thomas 114

Now, before we start getting into it about just what constitutes a “very productive hitter”, let’s take some notes

18 guys - 7 of whom are very average or not even that (an average ballplayer is a 100, the average range is 90-110

Of the guys who stand out as the best hitters, most got onto this dubious top list at an early age

So what does this mean? Well, we see that some very good power hitters strike out too much early in their careers. But there’s a bunch of guys on this list who dont qualify in my book as “very productive”, nor as “great hitter” -

By the way, in another post you mentioned Barry Bonds, reggie Jackson, and Adam Dung in the same post. That’s pure platinum, sterling silver, and unprocessed taconite oar for the uninitiated

Seems that the single season strikeout leaders list wasnt what’s full of anything

By Shaun

January 17, 2007 08:58 AM | Link to this

But that DOES NOT change the fact that for any given player in any given situation, the strikeout is the worst possible single out outcome of an at bat.

WHY? Because it affords the least chance of contributing to the creation of a run

Well, it depends on the situation. A strikeout is better than a double or triple play, as we’ve established and I think everyone agrees. Also, if no one is on base, is a strikeout really any worse than any other out? If no one is on base with less than two outs, you could make a compelling argument that a strikeout is the best possible way to make an out because of the possibility of the catcher missing the ball on the third strike.

All in all, I think many people overrate strikeouts as bad outs. Obviously it depends on a player’s other skills but having a player who strikes out a lot yet does a lot of other things well is better than having a player who never strikes out but can’t do much else.

On the flip side, the walk is the ultimate pitcher sin.

I would say the homerun is obviously the ultimate pitcher sin. I know some homers are cheap but most homeruns are the hitter getting a hold of the ball. And obviously it results in a run in one pitch.

By Shaun

January 17, 2007 09:18 AM | Link to this

Robert,

Well, the single season strikeout list is full hitters having average seasons (some slightly above, some slightly below). To be honest, I’m a little surprised there isn’t at least one bad hitter in the list because you think a lot of strikeouts, a lot of outs, less production.

If strikeouts were a big deal, don’t you think that at least one of the top 25 most struck out hitters in a season would be horrible?

Okay, so I may have been wrong in saying that these hitters were “very productive.” But they were okay and some were pretty good. Maybe if you looked at something a little more telling than OPS (something that properly weighed OBP/Out Percentage) a lot of those seasons would look even more productive.

Another interesting thing to look at would be the highest and lowest career strikeout rates of all-time (min. 1000 plate appearances or something) and find out how those hitters fared in terms of OPS/adjusted OPS or some kind of good measure of production. Or the highest and lowest career OPS/adjusted OPS of all time and the strikeout rates of those hitters.

One more thing, if anyone has time, maybe look at the top hitters of all time (OPS/adjusted OPS) and their minor league strikeout rates (thebaseballcube.com). I think this whole argument started with a Kevin Maas discussion—I think some thought because Maas had a high strike out rate in the minors, major league failure was inevitable. But was it really? Which, I think is somewhat true, but it’s true because once his other skills started to deteriorate (his bat slowed down, hand-eye coordination got worse) he had nothing to fall back on.

By rammerjammer

January 17, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

Yet ANOTHER

By Carroll

January 17, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

Shaun:

1. As for your sugestion that “the strikeout is the best possible scenario in some cases”…preposterous. Any other player on the diamond is just as likely to make an error as the catcher. Thus you are just as likely to reach on a dropped fly ball to center as you are on a pass ball by the catcher on strike 3. Hell, if anything, you are prolly more likely to reach on the former because the pass ball on strike 3 is already rare, and it’s even rarer that the ball gets so far away from the catcher that he can’t throw the runner out at 1B. I can think of a handful of times that has happened in my entire baseball-watching history.

2. As to your assertion that a double play is worse than a strikeout, I’m not so sure. I mean, if runners are on and nobody out, a double play AT LEAST scores a run or maybe advance a runner whereas a strikeout does NOTHING!

Bottom line, while I do detest double plays the Strikeout is THE WORST out a player can make 99.5% of the time.

By rammerjammer

January 17, 2007 10:25 AM | Link to this

Latest obsessed-with-LaRoche story in the Pittsburgh newspaper:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07017/754341-63.stm

By Lew

January 17, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this

Damn, it’s cold. 0 degrees with a wind chill of -16. And it’s sunny. I can’t wait for Spring Training.

By Shaun

January 17, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

This brings to the forefront another major fallacy that has been sold to Braves fans. Folks, there wasnt a single team during the run that wasnt way above average in talent. For starters, the ‘04 team is the ONLY one that didnt have at LEAST two front line starters. EVERY Braves team from 1993 on has had at LEAST 3 future HOFers on the roster. More disturbing, the great mid 90’s teams (the ones that underachieved the most) had 5-8 future HOFers per year.

I don’t know many teams in baseball history who had 5-8 future HOFers at one time. Who are those 5-8? I count Maddux and Glavine as sure fire. Smoltz and Chipper will probably make it. But who else?

I’ll give you evidence of what Cox does to win games—2171-1686, .563 winning percentage…and that’s career. His record with the Braves is 1816-1394, .566, four pennants and a World Series. Four MGR of the Year awards, three with the Braves.

Put Cox at the helm of the 06 Tigers, or the 91 or 92 Pirates, and those teams dont sniff the first division, much less postseason play.

Robert, it’s great that you ask everyone else for evidence to convince you that Cox is a good manager but you make statements like this. How in the world do you have any idea what Cox would do with the ‘06 Tigers or ‘91 or ‘92 Pirates?

Okay, Cox may be a bad manager. But given his overall record, is it more likely that he’s a good manager or a bad manager? We know he’s won the fifth-most regular season games of all-time and he’s got a World Series ring; that’s what we do know. He has the third-best winning percentage of all time. Maybe it’s possible to win that often without being at least a decent manager, but it would be difficult. Is it more likely Cox is has done little to help his teams in 3860 games or is it more likely he is a decent to outstanding manager?

Doesn’t seem likely to me that a bad manager could win that often over that span of years. I guess it’s possible that it was all the players and good fortune and good coaches and good general management and had absolutely nothing to do with the manager, but doesn’t seem very likely. Therefore, I think the burden of proof is on you Robert. You’ve stated your case and I think 99 percent of the posters on this blog disagree. So we’ll leave it at that as to who’s right and who’s wrong on this issue.

By Shaun

January 17, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

Carroll,

Again, it depends. An out is an out in many cases (not all but many). If a play results in an out and doesn’t advance a runner, it doesn’t really matter how the out is made, it’s still costing the team. I’m not sure the percentage of times it would be better to ground out or fly out than strikeout but I’m sure it’s less than 99.5 percent. There are certain times where, given a choice among outs, a contact out would be better or the same as a strikeout. And I would bet that it’s less than 99.5 percent of the times.

By Shaun

January 17, 2007 11:00 AM | Link to this

Carroll,

Also, again, it depends on the situation and circumstances. I’d rather have a player who strikes out a lot but has power and walks a lot than a guy who never ever strikes out but has no power/ability to hit it hard and is slow as molasses. I would take almost any player over a guy that never ever strikes out but has no power/ability to hit the ball hard and no speed. That guy is going to cost you a lot of outs and his outs are likely going to outweigh the errors he forces or the runners he’s going to advance with contact.

By David O'Brien

January 17, 2007 11:30 AM | Link to this

Strong points, Shaun. As you can imagine (and I know a certain person will attack this statement for its very premise), your view is the one espoused by about 99.9 percent of all players _ past and present, former Braves and those who never played for the team _ managers, coaches, scouts and front office officials I’ve ever heard discuss Cox during going-on 13 seasons covering baseball.

Honestly, without exaggerating, I’ve never, and I mean never, heard one other person express even a remotely similar view to the one that Roberts presents here so routinely. Of course, to him that means everyone, every single person except him, is wrong. So be it.

By The place Robert was for a month so he wasn't annoying the crap out of everyone

January 17, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this

Come back. We miss you and your super-fresh donkey jokes.

By DonCoburleone

January 17, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this

“DonC, saw you question the inclusion of college basketball talk on Braves blog in January. I ask you, would you prefer we go back and forth discussing one man’s repeated, staggeringly redundant posts about how bad a manager Bobby Cox is?…”

YES!

NCAA Basketball don’t start until March 10th or so in my book…

By Puplwood Smith

January 17, 2007 12:14 PM | Link to this

You stay classy, Marcus Giles. Are these the type of behavioral issues that we’ve all heard helped make Giles’ departure easier to swallow?

New Padres second baseman Marcus Giles was handcuffed, detained and escorted from Qualcomm Stadium during Sunday’s Chargers playoff game after getting involved in a fight on the stadium’s club level, according to police.

Giles, 28, was given the option of returning after being detained but chose to leave, said San Diego Police Lt. Dan Christman. Giles does not face charges for the incident.

Christman said Giles and a friend were involved in a fight with at least one other person, who slipped away before being caught.

Giles came to San Diego last month from the Atlanta Braves, receiving a one-year deal for $3.75 million, plus a club option for 2008.

By David O'Brien

January 17, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

Oh, and anyone who knows me knows how fond I am of Leyland, and how good a relationship I’ve maintained with him since covering his Florida team. Loved seeing him again during the World Series and at winter meetings.

That said, Jim should’ve started Rogers in Game 5. No question.

By Shaun

January 17, 2007 12:22 PM | Link to this

O’Brien,

Something minor that I noticed last week: John Thomson signs with the Blue Jays. Instead of criticizing the team that didn’t want him, that let him go, he criticizes the players on that team’s arch rival. How many players that are that opinionated would not criticize the team that just let them go? Thomson could have easily lashed out at Schuerholz or Cox for letting him go but instead he goes after the Mets. It’s a small example of the class of the Braves franchise and Bobby Cox.

It’s become a cliche around baseball but over the years little things here and there exemplify the Braves’ class.

How many players actually criticize the Braves even when they are let go by the team? How many players have lashed out at Bobby Cox?

It’s ridiculous to get into this battle of wits with Robert but it’s just so obvious that he is so wrong on this issue.

By David O'Brien

January 17, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this

Oh, and I know this blog’s getting bogged down, so I’ll try to get a new one up later today/tonight. Gotta get downtown for a baseball section meeting now, though.

And DonC, when you attend the Univ. of Kansas (and or Kentucky, or UNC, Duke, etc), basketball season doesn’t start in March. Or Feb. Or Jan. Or Dec. It’s year-round, including the recruiting cycle. Same as football is for folks from SEC schools.

By DonCoburleone

January 17, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

Okay Robert, I see your points about Cox and I do agree with some of them. But I ask you, what year(s) do you feel were directly caused by Bobby Cox? To me, the only year I can really point to is 1996, but I put the blame on that entire team, not just Cox. He was definately part of the problem, but not the whole thing. I mean, 1991 and 1992 you’ve agreed were not BC’s fault. So, do you think we should have won it in 1993? I’m willing to listen to that argument if you want to say we should have beat Philly, but to say we should have won the World Series that year? Toronto was the best team in baseball for those 2 years both talent-wise and in intangibles (Joe Carter was one of the greatest leaders this game has ever seen). 1995 we won it all. 1996 I think we can agree was THE YEAR where we had the best team in baseball and didn’t win it all. 1997? That Marlins team was LOADED. Clearly more talented than we were that year, so how can you blame Cox for that? 1998? Well, I’m willing to hear why we should have won the NL that year, but do you really think we would have had a shot against the Yankees that year? NO WAY! That may have been the best team in baseball history. 1999? Again, the Yankees were the better team that year, PERIOD. And from 2000 on I feel like the Braves were NEVER the most talented team in baseball. So, just give me a year and a reason, other than 1996, why Cox cost Atlanta a World Series ring?

By Shaun

January 17, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

Also, I could understand if maybe 10 or 15 percent of people who know baseball thought Cox was a bad manager. But the fact that virtually everyone thinks he’s a great manager, probably means you should reevaluate your thinking. I understand the majority is wrong sometimes, but when over 99 percent of the majority believes one thing and several pieces of evidence supports their beliefs, it’s probably a good idea to at least consider there is a good bit of truth to their beliefs.

By BB FAN

January 17, 2007 12:38 PM | Link to this

Robert,

The Chargers did not make “dumb” mistakes throughout the year so they were prepared. What the hell should the coach do if his team has played smart ball all year long (which is why they are in the playoffs to begin with) but suddenly in the playoffs, they choke. It’s normally not the coaches fault. He got them to play well all year long.

As far as the 1996 World Series goes… Jim Leyritz has said numerous times that he could not and would not have caught up with Wohlers’ fast ball. He fouled a few off before the slider. he said it was a great pitch working for Wohlers. Wohlers was trying to change it up so he would keep Leyritz from timing it. It’s a classic move that has been used forever. However, the slider hung over the plate. It was a mistake on Wohlers part. Lehritz could not catch up to his fastball. But a pitcher has to change it up or the hitter will eventually time the fastball. Wohler’s did that but just missed with his location.

It sounds to me like Wohlers was the perfect guy to be in there. Especially since McMichael had been rocked the night before. And Clontz was horrible all season not to mention, he pitched the night before as well. Wade had already pitched that night and was wild. Bielecki had already gone 2 innings that night and pitched an inning the night before.

So tell me Robert, tell us all, who would have been better than Wohlers?

By DonCoburleone

January 17, 2007 12:48 PM | Link to this

If anything Robert, you should be overly critical of Chipper Jones. I see more often than not, teams who win multiple Championships have a bonafide leader on their team, and it ain’t the coach. I myself put more blame on Chipper as a failed leader than to Bobby Cox’s supposed “incompetence”. Just look at it! The Twins had Puckett, the Blue Jays had Joe Carter, The Yankees had Paul O’Neil (screw Jeter, O’Neil was the leader of those Championship teams). In other sports, you had Jordan in basketball, Patrick Roy in hockey, Elway, Montana, and Brady in football… The coach can’t lead by example on the field! It’s up to a player! And if you ask me, Chipper has failed at that in the postseason year after year.

By Head Coach

January 17, 2007 01:14 PM | Link to this

Well fella’s. Pop’s always to me never to argue with a tree stump. to which I asked. Dad , how do you argue with a tree stump ? to which he replied : Exactly.

By Bryan from Kansas (Go KU)

January 17, 2007 01:35 PM | Link to this

David, What do you think about this Chris Duffy guy. Is he a good player?

By Shaun

January 17, 2007 01:47 PM | Link to this

DonCoburleone,

Here are Chipper’s post-season numbers:.288 AVG/.411 OBP/.459 SLG. Regular season: .304 AVG/.402 OBP/.542 SLG.

He’s been slightly worse in the post-season, but he’s also facing better pitching and better teams in general. And his post-season numbers are still pretty good.

Look at a player with a good post-season reputation like Derek Jeter: .314 AVG/.384 OBP/.479 SLG. Not all that much better than Chipper’s post-season numbers.

So, Chipper’s done fine in the post-season. I honestly think the Braves post-season woes were mostly because of the lack of power-pitching and misfortune. A lot of the series they played in could have gone either way; with a lucky bounce here and there the Braves could have two or three more WS titles. And, as I said before, I think if Schuerholz had acquired more power pitching, the Braves would not have won as many games in the regular season because it would have been at the expense of offense or great non-power pitchers.

By Braves20

January 17, 2007 01:51 PM | Link to this

Ecch - I thought we had a ban on using that profanity (Leyritz) on this blog!

By DonCoburleone

January 17, 2007 02:18 PM | Link to this

“I honestly think the Braves post-season woes were mostly because of the lack of power-pitching and misfortune.”

Greg Maddux pitched in 11 Division Series contests, 15 League Championship games and five World Series games, and has a 3.22 ERA in 190.0 post-season innings. Including a 2.09 ERA in his 38.67 World Series innings.

Tom Glavine pitched in 10 Division Series contests, 17 League Championship games and 8 World Series games, and has a 3.42e.r.a. in 218.3 post-season innings. Including a 2.47 ERA in his 58.3 World Series innings.

Okay, so how exactly does “power pitching” do any better than those numbers? And you quote Chipper’s stats in the playoffs, and going from .542 slugging during the regular season to .459 IS SIGNIFICANT! Not to mention, his stats in the World Series get even worse! In 55 World Series AB’s, Chipper is .273 average, .391OBP, and .436 slugging! He gets worse as the spotlight gets bigger!

By dcarp23

January 17, 2007 02:22 PM | Link to this

Giles is already making a name for himself in San Diego:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070117/news_1s17giles.html

By TennesseePaul

January 17, 2007 02:29 PM | Link to this

Came to check on the blog… All i saw was a ton of blank space and then some of my favorite bloggin companions mentioning a poster I have successfully blocked from sight. So apparently I didn’t miss much.

Payne: Thomson’s remarks were fabulous. I liked this guy when he was with the Braves. He infurated me last season, but there was something about him… just couldn’t help but hope he’d turn it all around. And then to part ways speaking well of the team and Cox and then ripping on the rival. Hats of to Thomson. Well done. If only Glavine had parted so gracefully. I’ll be watching John this season. I hope he makes that rotation. If he does, I’ll probably take in a few games if he pitches in Anaheim Angels Stadium of Los Angeles.

By N8

January 17, 2007 02:34 PM | Link to this

Shaun

Your wrote:

” Also, if no one is on base, is a strikeout really any worse than any other out. If no one is on base with less than two outs, you could make a compelling argument that a strikeout is the best possible way to make an out because of the possibility of the catcher missing the ball on the third strike.”

Your argument here is a little silly. First of all, reguarding the first half of you comment. A strikeout is FAR AND AWAY the least productive out there can be. I will conceed to you, that in CERTAIN situations (pitcher or another “non-threat” hitter at bat with less than 2 outs), that a strikeout CAN be more productive than a groundball double play. But that’s assuming the next guy up, does anything with his AB. But, IMO, even with nobody out, a strikeout is still very worthless. A fielder is MUCH more likely to make an error, (whether it’s the fielder or the 1B catching the throw), than a guy reaching on a missed 3rd strike by the catcher. Not to mention, the possibility of bad hops, a “swinging bunt” placed in no man’s land, a high chopper off the plate, or maybe a guy with speed (Furcal for example), that just sometimes beats out the play.

PUTTING THE BALL IN PLAY is a fairly neccesary part of being a good hitter. Tony Gwynn had 434 strikeouts in 20 years! Now I realize that comparing people to a HOF’r is a bit extreme. But do you think it’s coincidence that the guy had career .338 batting average, with his abilty to put the ball in play? For example Jeff Francoeur has ALREADY struck out 190 times in LESS THAN 2 full seasons. Amazing.

I remember an interview with Fred McGriff where he said that him and Gwynn used to “argue” about eachother’s numbers. McGriff said that he used to tell Gwynn that if he wanted to cut back on his power numbers he could hit .350 if he wanted to. Conversely, Gwynn said to McGriff if he was interested in ONLY hitting .275, he could hit 35 HR’s a year. I believe BOTH of them. McGriff was a good hitter (took the ball the other way when pitched that way) and had pretty good bat control, when he wanted to. On the flip side, I’m guessing that if Gwynn wanted to be a “guess hitter” and take chances at driving the ball, as opposed to “seeing the ball/hitting the ball”, he could’ve. It’s not like Gwynn was built like Rafael Belliard. LOL!

McGriff CHOSE to be a POWER HITTER and drive in runs. Gwynn chose to make contact and be a smart hitter. I know this isn’t a “stat” that is kept track of (or at least printed on the “leaderboards”), but I’d like to know how many times Gwynn moved a runner along to 3rd base by giving himself up in an AB. My guess, is that he would be at the top of THAT category too.

IMO, strikeouts RARELY “help” a team. Imagine how many RBI (which is the most important offensive stat, to me), Francoeur would have if he “put the ball in play” in HALF of those strikeouts. It’s safe to assume that Francoeur DIDN’T have any RBI while striking out last year (correct me if I’m wrong. LOL). So let’s look at the “numbers”.

651 AB’s, 132 K’s, and 103 RBI. So (try and keep up with my “logic”) in the 519 AB’s that he made contact on he had 103 RBI (or 1 RBI every 5.03 AB’s). So if you take the 132 K’s he had and cut them in half (66), then apply the above equation, he would’ve had 13 more RBI. Not a HUGE increase. But probably enough to help the braves win another game or two. Now apply that to the WHOLE TEAM:

5583 AB’s, 849 Runs Scored, 1169 K’s. (I used runs scored vs. RBI for the TEAM, since it seems more logical as a WHOLE)

So you minus the 1169 K’s from the AB’s which leaves you with 4414 AB’s that resulted in putting the ball in play. Divide that total (4414) by how many runs scored = 1 run scored for every 5.19 ball put in play. Now if you were to cut the K’s in HALF (leaving 584 K’s) and apply the ratio of adding 1 run for every 5.19 AB’s where the ball is put in play, that would’ve given the Braves another 112 runs scored last year.

So are you STILL gonna tell me that strikeouts aren’t any LESS PRODUCTIVE than any other out? How many more games would the Braves have won had they scored another 112 runs? I’m not sure, but I’m guessing it AT LEAST puts them in the wild card spot.

By Shaun

January 17, 2007 02:42 PM | Link to this

DonCoburleone and Robert,

I think there are too many people who want to place the blame for the Braves’ post-season losses on this person or that person, which I suppose is very fair. But in my opinion the Braves just didn’t have the type of teams that could succeed in the post-season. I’m sure I’ve posted this article before, but it is basically an explanation of the biggest factors in post-season success:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=betweenthenumbers/billybeane/060405

Basically, post-season success is largely related to closer performance, pitchers’ K rate and defense. As I’ve said in a few posts now, the Braves have never really had that many really good high strikeout pitchers. And, as I’ve also said, it’s hard to blame Schuerholz (or anyone) for this because if he had acquired or attempted to acquire more power pitching maybe the Braves miss out on or don’t keep Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux or some of their good hitters.

Also, as we all know, post-season results can depend largely on just unusual happenings that probably only take place once in 100 chances—yesterday, I brought up the Tony Clark bounce in the 2004 ALCS that probably helped costs the Yankees the pennant. And how it’s not really surprising when bad teams sweep good teams in the regular season and shouldn’t be surprising when an okay team beats a good one in the playoffs (2006 Cardinals).

Am I saying Schuerholz or Cox or any member of the organization has been perfect and making excuses for them? Of course not. But the organization has done an excellent job of increasing their chances to win.

By DonCoburleone

January 17, 2007 02:48 PM | Link to this

LOL… Marcus is the man…

By rammerjammer

January 17, 2007 03:09 PM | Link to this

U.S. Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama, probable rivals for the 2008 Democratic nomination for President, today joined the growing chorus of observers urging the Pittsburgh Pirates to acquire Atlanta Braves first baseman Dave LaRoche.

“We stand together, united in our determination that the deserving fans of the Pittsburgh Pirates not be denied the right of every American to cheer on their favorite lefthanded hitting first baseman,” Clinton and Obama said in a joint statement.

Privately, both senators have confided that Pennsylvania is a key to their nomination hopes and a successful baseball team in Pittsburgh may enhance their efforts.

White House Press Secretary Tony Snow insisted President Bush stood firm with Pirates fans and urged them to “stay the course” under General Manager Dave Littlefield.

“The President is encouraged with the new leadership recently announced in Pittsburgh,” Snow said.

The latest AP-Ipsos polling of likely baseball fans indicates most are dissatisfied with the direction of the Pittsburgh franchise.

However, that percentage changed dramatically when asked if acquiring LaRoche would change their views.

Nick Lanternjaw, a self-proclaimed “third generation Pirates fan,” said the time may have come for Major League Baseball to intervene.

“Look at the Braves. Fourteen division titles in a row. Look at the Pirates. Fourteen straight losing seasons. How can any American call that fair?”

Illinois’ Obama, perhaps looking to gain an edge on Clinton, may consider introducing what one aide called a “Fairness Doctrine For Baseball” that would repeal revenue sharing and replace it with “victory sharing.”

An Obama spokesman said it would be “a win-win for everyone,” enabling disadvantaged baseball fans to enjoy the same benefits now afforded to only a few select teams’ followers.

Under one possible scenario, teams above a certain win median would transfer victories to less fortunate clubs.

Lanternjaw added, “Someone oughta make the Braves do this deal. For them to just sit there with all those titles, while the rest of us are starved for victories…well, it’s just not the American way.”

By Shaun

January 17, 2007 03:34 PM | Link to this

N8,

Again, it’s a broken record, but it depends on the situation. I would rather have a guy who does a lot of things well but strikes out a lot than a guy who never ever strikes out and is slow and has no power.

If a guy puts the ball in play weakly and is slow, he’s probably going to make a lot more outs than errors he would force by making contact or runners he would advance by making contact. And he’s probably going to hit into a lot of double plays.

Okay, you talk about Furcal. If Furcal grounds out with nobody on base and strikes out with nobody on base, there’s not much difference there. Forget about possibilities for a second.

As far as outs “helping” a team, I would argue that the guy on base did more to help the team than the guy who hit the sac fly or the sac bunt. Yes, outs can advance runners but it would be far more helpful to avoid an out/get on and advance that runner than it would be to make an out.

And your equation is interesting but I’m not sure it means that much. I mean, a team can strikeout a lot, but if they make fewer outs in other ways and have enough power, they could make up for the high strikeout total.

Look at the 2004 Red Sox, who scored a whopping 5.86 runs per game. They struck out more than any team that season, over 7 times a game. They were excellent at avoiding outs and earning bases.

I accept your argument that putting the ball in play is helpful a lot of times. But a lot of times it doesn’t really matter how an out is made, it’s better to avoid outs altogether. Strikeout totals rarely correlate with run scoring totals.

The team with the most strikeouts in the NL finished in the middle of the pack in runs scored in 2006. The team with the second most finished near the bottom in runs. The team with the third most led the league in runs scored.

Pick any random year and you probably won’t be able to tell a whole lot about runs scoring totals based on a team’s ability to put the ball in play. Avoiding outs by any means necessary is much more telling. Now, pick any random year and you can tell a lot about runs scoring totals based on a team’s ability to avoid outs—if most of their outs come on K’s, it’s okay, as long as they avoid outs better than other teams. And history proves this. Just take a look if you don’t believe me.

By N8

January 17, 2007 04:07 PM | Link to this

Shaun

you wrote:

“Okay, you talk about Furcal. If Furcal grounds out with nobody on base and strikes out with nobody on base, there’s not much difference there. Forget about possibilities for a second.”

Again. I’ll conceed that AN OUT IS AN OUT, with 0 men on base, 1 man on base, 2 men on base and with the bases loaded. PERIOD. AN OUT IS AN OUT.

But Furcal is THE PRIME EXAMPLE of a guy who strikes out too much, based on the “possibilities” you noted. HOW MANY DIFFERENT WAYS is there for Furcal to get on base?

HBP, Walk, Single, Double, Triple, HR, Infield hit, Error (forced by his speed - a bobble or hurried throw for example), good old fashioned ERROR, infield single, bunt basehit. He has speed. GOOD THINGS HAPPEN when he makes contact.

How many times have people made the argument of POWER PITCHING (strike out guys) succeeding in the playoffs? Guys like Maddux and Glavine have been burned by “bloop hits” and “seeing eye singles”, not to mention fielding miscues, because THE BALLS WERE ABLE TO BE PUT IN PLAY. Not very often have Glavine and Maddux been HAMMERED in the post-season.

How many times have we heard Bobby say “Aw shucks, that one just fell in, right out of the reach of (insert ANY Braves infielder for the last 15 years), 1 more foot and he woulda had it.”??? I’ll tell you why that happens to the Braves (and many other teams) in the post-season. BECAUSE THEY MADE CONTACT. You can’t have a seeing eye single without having your bat TOUCH THE BALL. I think that’s how they teach it in T-Ball. The object of the game is to hit the ball with the bat. LOL!

Do you know what the “odds” are of Leyritz hitting the HR off of Wohlers in 1996 if he isn’t able to make contact? That’s right. ZERO PERCENT!!!

How about in 1992? What if David Justice had struck out with Pendelton on 2nd in the bottom of the 9th of game 7 of the NLCS? What then? 1 out runneron 2nd. Instead, Justice made CONTACT and Lind booted the ball. Result: FLOOD GATES OPENED. The rest is history as they say.

So all things considered, like I said, I’ll “give you” that an OUT IS AN OUT. Not much arguement there. But the pending results that occur when outs are recorded in different manners are UNDISPUTABLE. Not to mention the other “possiblities” that occur (that you want me to ignore), when the ball is put in play.

I’ll conceed that much, because I am a reasonible person with, what I like to be, a pretty good GRASP of the game. But if you still won’t conceed that striking out is the WORST OUT that can be made, then you’ve basically let your knowledge (or lack thereof) of the game of baseball be known to the world. (At least the ones who frequent the AJC/Braves/Blogs) LOL!

By Shaun

January 17, 2007 04:21 PM | Link to this

I’ll conceed that much, because I am a reasonible person with, what I like to be, a pretty good GRASP of the game. But if you still won’t conceed that striking out is the WORST OUT that can be made, then you’ve basically let your knowledge (or lack thereof) of the game of baseball be known to the world. (At least the ones who frequent the AJC/Braves/Blogs) LOL!

A strikeout may or may not be the worst out possible, depending on the situation. I would think you have to agree there.

And the fact that you can’t tell a whole lot about a team’s run-scoring abilities by looking at their strikeout total should allow you to see that frequency of outs is more important than the way outs are made.

You can tell a lot about run scoring totals by looking at out frequency. You can’t tell a lot about run scoring totals by looking at types of outs. You don’t have to take my word for it, just take a look at BaseballReference.com or your favorite baseball site.

By N8

January 17, 2007 04:21 PM | Link to this

Shaun

I should add, that the arguement I make for striking out becomes CONSIDERABLY magnified in the post season (as does almost every detail of the game). Of course over the last 14 years 162 game schedules, I don’t remember EVERY strike out that “cost the Braves runs” because they didn’t advance runners and such. But DAMN! The post-season is a different story, isn’t it?

I do get what you are saying too. About a team with POWER HITTERS that strike out a lot, will make up for those “lost opportunities” in bunches with the quick numbers they can put on the board.

But for me PERSONALLY (not stating that it’s how every team or player should think or operate), I would rather have a team of good situational hitters that make the pitcher work and throw more pitches and beat a team by hitting a TON of singles, doubles and walking a lot, than watch a team HACK-n-JACK like the Braves have the last decade and a half.

But that’s just me. And it’s not to say that teams CAN’T be successful either way. Obviously the Braves have showed that you can with with a bunch of power guys.

But here’s the difference to me. A hack-n-jack team FEASTS off of the lesser teams, since most good/great pitchers don’t give up a lot of HR’s. So right there is the PRIME reason why the hack-n-jack teams don’t succeed in the post-season. NOT TO MANY CRAPPY PITCHERS on playoff teams. You need to work the count, wait for your pitch and then take that pitch where it is thrown. Wasn’t David Eckstein the WS MVP last year? Weren’t Mark Lemke and Marquis Grissom two of the BEST post-season hitters the braves every had? VERY RARELY do the BIG GUNS beat teams in the playoffs. Jim Lyritz anybody? How about Ed Sprague?

I just didn’t want you to think I’m being pig-headed about this. I see your point, and it’s a good one on the whole. I guess my point is more “opinion” on what type of team/player I would like to watch. Not to mention I think those guys (the little guys or big guys that are good hitters - LIKE MANNY - the guys is a good hitter AND A POWER THREAT), are MUCH more consistant than you everyday hackers that have the “numbers” at the end of the year. (Andruw, Francoeur, Sexon, Thome, etc….)

L8R Dude. Didn’t mean to be condescending or rude in my last post.

By Shaun

January 17, 2007 04:27 PM | Link to this

N8,

Good things don’t always happen when you make contact—depends on other skills. The Cubs made a lot of contact in ‘06 but finished next to last in runs scored. The Orioles made a lot of contact in ‘06 but finished fifth from the bottom in runs scored in the AL. Let’s take a random year…say 1971…in the NL the Montreal Expos and Houston Astros struck out less than anyone; they both finished in the bottom half in runs scored.

One more time…avoiding outs is much, much more important than how you make outs.

By David O'Brien

January 17, 2007 04:32 PM | Link to this

THIS JUST IN: Very reliable source says LaRoche has been traded to Pittsburgh for Gonzalez and another Pirate, though wouldn’t say who other Pirate is.

AGAIN, LAROCHE TRADED TO PITTSBURGH. Gotta get going and keep making calls. Sorry. I’ll file something soon as I have more

By rupert

January 17, 2007 04:47 PM | Link to this

the deal is done, as first reported here, laroche to pittsburgh for gonzalez, and im hearing duffy, trust rupert for all your latest rumors and deals, rupert is good, rupert is wise

By summerteeth

January 17, 2007 04:48 PM | Link to this

There better be another Pirate involved and it better be a pitcher or Duffy.

By David O'Brien

January 17, 2007 04:48 PM | Link to this

Here’s what I just filed. Still trying to find out who is second Pirates player in the deal

By DAVID O’BRIEN dobrien@ajc.com

Braves first baseman Adam LaRoche has been traded to the Pittsburgh Pirates for left-handed closer Mike Gonzalez and another player, a Pirates team official confirmed Wednesday.

Neither team would comment publicly on the deal, which will be finalized after the players pass physicals. The addition of Gonzalez, a hard thrower who converted 24 of 24 save opportunities for the Pirates last season, would give the Braves one the best bullpens in the major leagues.

Gonzalez and newcomer Rafael Soriano would serve as setup men to closer Bob Wickman, who converted 18 of 19 saves for the Braves after coming from Cleveland in a July 20 trade. The Braves got Soriano in a December trade for starting pitcher Horacio Ramirez.

Gonzalez, 29, had a 2.17 ERA with 64 strikeouts in 54 innings before missing the final five weeks of the season with tendinitis in his pitching elbow. A postseason MRI exam revealed no tissue damage and Gonzalez has reportedly been throwing without pain this winter.

No announcement of the trade was expected to be made Wednesday, but all the details of the long-rumored trade had been completed. It was unclear who else the Braves would get in the trade, but the Pirates had refused for several weeks to include center fielder Chris Duffy or one of their top young starting pitchers.

By rammerjammer

January 17, 2007 04:49 PM | Link to this

Dang, I hate to see LaRoche go. Hope the other Pirate is one of their lefty starters.

Scott Thorman, your ship has come in.

By Carroll

January 17, 2007 04:49 PM | Link to this

Shaun, I have to disagree with you again about the striekout argument. You claim that, in the end, an out is an out is an out, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s a strikeout or whatever. Thats true BUT the problem with that logic, my friend, is that you’re using hindsight.

Sure, an out is an out is an out. BUT if you look at it BEFORE THE FACT, you would MUCH rather a player makes an out in ANY OTHER WAY besides a strikeout because if the guy AT LEAST puts the ball in play then there’s A CHANCE for a bad hop or an error or runner advancement or whatever, whereas there is ZERO chance of ANY of that on a strikeout (other than the .05% of the time that there may be a pass ball on strike 3 on which the batter can reach first base).

See what I’m saying? You have to look at it BEFOREhand and say I’d rather that this batter puts the ball in play than strike out….NOT look at it after the fact and say oh well, a strikeout was no worse than a pop out.

By MS

January 17, 2007 04:49 PM | Link to this

Just saw that on ESPN.com. NOOOOO!! I love Gonzalez but Laroche is just too much to give up. Man it’s going to hurt to lose his stick, and that run-saving glove of his! Crap.

That other Pirate better be one of the big four SP’s, or Duffy, but I really doubt it. I didn’t think Schuerholz would cave before Littlefield, but maybe he did. C’mon DOB, tell me that other Pirate is one of them!!

By DonCoburleone

January 17, 2007 04:50 PM | Link to this

Wait wait wait, are you serious DOB?

By KebMo

January 17, 2007 04:50 PM | Link to this

ESPN is reporting the trade as straight up LaRoche for Gonzalez

By DonCoburleone

January 17, 2007 04:53 PM | Link to this

Who is the other Pirate DOB? Oh man, the anticipation…

By Carroll

January 17, 2007 04:54 PM | Link to this

PLEASE let the other pirate be Duke or Malholm and NOT Castillo or Duffy (although Duffy would be better than Castillo).

By TLJ

January 17, 2007 04:56 PM | Link to this

DOB,

I’ve got a real bad feeling about this trade. Unless we got one of their starting pitchers (which Littlefield has repeatedly said he would not do) I think we came out on the short end of the trade. It appears JS blinked first. I agree it depends on who the other player is. It doesn’t sound like it will be an impact player though. We now appear to be weaker on offensive and defense. THAT OTHER PLAYER BETTER ONE OF THEIR SP.

By David O'Brien

January 17, 2007 04:57 PM | Link to this

it’s not Duffy or one of the good starting pitchers, and I don’t think second player is an impact guy at all, at least not for right now. maybe a prospect, but haven’t nailed it down yet

here’s story so far

By DAVID O’BRIEN dobrien@ajc.com

Braves first baseman Adam LaRoche has been traded to the Pittsburgh Pirates for left-handed closer Mike Gonzalez and another player, a Pirates team official confirmed Wednesday.

Neither team would comment publicly on the deal, which will be finalized after the players pass physicals. The addition of Gonzalez, a hard thrower who converted 24 of 24 save opportunities for the Pirates last season, would give the Braves one the best bullpens in the major leagues.

Gonzalez and newcomer Rafael Soriano would serve as setup men to closer Bob Wickman, who converted 18 of 19 saves for the Braves after coming from Cleveland in a July 20 trade. The Braves got Soriano in a December trade for starting pitcher Horacio Ramirez.

Gonzalez, 29, had a 2.17 ERA with 64 strikeouts in 54 innings before missing the final five weeks of the season with tendinitis in his pitching elbow. A postseason MRI exam revealed no tissue damage and Gonzalez has reportedly been throwing without pain this winter.

No announcement of the trade was expected to be made Wednesday, but all the details of the long-rumored trade had been completed.

It was unclear who else the Braves would get in the trade, but it wasn’t expected to be the immediate-impact type of player the Braves had sought.

The Pirates refused for several weeks to include center fielder Chris Duffy or one of their top young starting pitchers.

By Carolina Gent

January 17, 2007 04:57 PM | Link to this

I guess you can never have enough pitching, but I think we’ll really miss LaRoche at 1B. The trades have certainly turned the bullpen around. Maybe one of the new guys can be dealt to upgrade the offense, and get us a CF-in-waiting!

By Chris

January 17, 2007 04:59 PM | Link to this

This is really going to anger me. 10th in NL in OPS. As I said for 2 years, let him play every day and hit against left-handed pitching and his production will go up. Just when they decided to do that, LaRoche’s numbers went through the roof. And to give him away for a closer when we already have one, and we just got a setup man…This stinks like nastiness.

By MBATL

January 17, 2007 04:59 PM | Link to this

KebMo: from ESPN.com

ESPN.com could not immediately confirm if other players were involved in the deal.

Maybe you’re reading a different espn.com than me… I don’t pay for “extra” internet news.

By geauxbraves2000

January 17, 2007 05:04 PM | Link to this

AAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Geaux Braves!!

By MBATL

January 17, 2007 05:05 PM | Link to this

KebMo: that came out sounding wrong… I meant… did you get the report from the “insider” pages of ESPN, cause the non-subscriber report was as I listed.

By eware

January 17, 2007 05:07 PM | Link to this

Ewww, I hate to criticize JS, but I’m not liking this at all. Hope Francoeur is ready to pick up all the balls that will go thru the huge hole in the right side of the infield.

Who are they thinking will step up and become a long-baller?

By MS

January 17, 2007 05:12 PM | Link to this

Not an immediate-impact guy?? CRAP!!

Cmon JS. How do you cave to Dave Littlefield, when ALL of the pressure is on him. He’s getting berated by his bosses, local fans, and even his OWN PLAYERS to make a move and then WE give in????

Man, I just don’t understand it. Maybe this is just part of a bigger plan and we flip this other player with a prospect and an SP (Davies, Villareal, Cormier?) for Baldelli? I sure hope so. I’ll withhold judgement until we get the final word and once JS assembles the rest of his pieces (he’s obviously got to bring in SOMEONE else to spell Thorman at 1B), but I don’t like the smell of it at all if something bigger isn’t in the works. Cmon JS, prove us all wrong and make some magic!

By Carroll

January 17, 2007 05:12 PM | Link to this

Shaun: Just to give you an example of what I’m saying, it’s kinda like being diagnosed with cancer. According to your argument, cancer is cancer, and that’s the end of it.

But the way I look at it, you’d much rather have skin cancer (easy to detect and highly curable) than lung cancer (nearly impossible to detect or cure, and almost always fatal). This way, you would AT LEAST have a fighting chance to beat the cancer.

Similarly, I’d rather have a batter do ANYTHING other than strike out because it AT LEAST gives you a chance.

Okay nuff said…just had to get my mind off the laroche thing for a while…I’m gonna be P** if there’s not a quality starter or at least duffy included in the deal…may never watch them again (and I din’t even like ROach that much).

By Lew

January 17, 2007 05:15 PM | Link to this

Y’all-This has major ramifications for our entire pitching staff. The game is now 5 innings for our starters. Yates, Paronto, McBride, Boyer will pitch the 6th, Gonzalez the 7th, Sorinano the 8th and Wicky closing. Smoltz no longer has to pitch 7 or 8 innings. Hudson pitched fine for 5 but blew up in the 6th-no longer a problem. Now Hampton, coming off of surgery only has to go 5. James doesn’t have to be overused and can develop. Cormier or Davies can be much more effective, also. I think what we lose in offense (Thorman may just surprise you playing every day), is more than offset by the major improvement up and down the line with our staff. Hands down, it’s time for the Mets to learn to appreciate their one division title.

By rammerjammer

January 17, 2007 05:19 PM | Link to this

JS dealt from a strength to shore up a weakness. As I said earlier, I hate to see LaRoche go, but the bullpen is CRITICAL to success - especially post-season success - and this bullpen is now officially awesome.

By Josh

January 17, 2007 05:26 PM | Link to this

Wow - what a pitching staff we are shaping up to have. A staff ERA in the mid to low threes.

Now the only question is - can we score more than three runs per game. No lead-off hitter or proven firstbasemen … I doubt it.

By rupert

January 17, 2007 05:34 PM | Link to this

great point by lew about shortening the game, the braves go from not having 1 dependable guy for much of last season to 3 dominant studs, the offense did not cost the braves many games last year, the bullpen did, obviously the braves feel the laroache was probably more of a one year wonder, there was no way with thorman and salty that they would sign him longterm so why not trade him while his value is hot, what happens when he hits 23 homers, drives in 78 and hits.267 next year, his salary will be upwards of 5 mil atleast and you got no value, smart move, hope they got someone of value with that second player

By The Grinch

January 17, 2007 05:36 PM | Link to this

This is a good deal. JS is the man. Watch and see not only how much this makes the whole staff better, but now we’ve got two guys who can close cheap for the next three years. We’ve also got too many bullpen arms now, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a couple of guys and Diaz/Langy get packaged for Baldelli or some other replacement for Andruw. You guys are gonna owe JS an apology.

By Lew

January 17, 2007 05:40 PM | Link to this

Josh-Are you serious? We still have Chipper, who hit 26 HR, Andruw, who hit over 40 and Francoeur who should hit 30+ and all three should knock in 100 runs.Don’t forget McCann’s 25 HR and 90 RBI, either.I was never a LaRoche basher, but he was our #7 hitter. We still have an extremely powerful middle of the lineup. This is hardly a doom and gloom scenario. JS just cinched up our pitching staff for three more years-Cheap.

By rammerjammer

January 17, 2007 05:40 PM | Link to this

Excellent points, Lew. How MANY games did we fritter away after 6 innings and handing the ball to Sosa, Remlinger, Barry, Reitsma, Ray…man, oh, man. Anyone criticizing the deal just needs to say those names over and over.

By JC FROM UT

January 17, 2007 05:45 PM | Link to this

Great trade JS. Even if it is straight up it is a good trade. The bullpen is now set and is actually a surplus to maybe deal from. I do believe the arbitration hearing had a lot to do with the trade as well. Lets all hope Thorman can come through with say .260 15-18HR and 70-80RBI.

By MBATL

January 17, 2007 05:47 PM | Link to this

The Braves obviously thought enough of Thorman’s bat to try to make him a left fielder (which he is NOT, from what I saw in ‘06).

Thorman is a top prospect, has a good stick and is a good (not saying ‘great’) defensive 1B. The Braves WANT him in the lineup. That’s why we could afford to trade LaRoche.

Thorman hit 5 HR in 128 ab’s last year, mostly filling in and jumping from majors to minors. I bet if he plays 140 games he’ll hit 25 as a rookie. Maybe not out-hit Laroche, but close enough for a team that now has “the best bullpen in baseball!”.

By rammerjammer

January 17, 2007 05:54 PM | Link to this

Pirates’ Web page says “At least one prospect from each organization is also believed to be involved in the deal.”

Interesting. Bucs have several pitching prospects who had arm problems/surgeries but are all reportedly healthy now.

By MS

January 17, 2007 05:56 PM | Link to this

I hope so Grinch! (that everyone will owe JS an apology)

It could definitely work out. If we get Baldelli, or if Thorman steps up, or if Kelly J. takes to second base and leadoff, or if Salty makes big strides at 1B, etc. etc. There are definitely some things to be hopeful for there (that aren’t too far fetched. well, maybe Baldelli unfortunately). It just hurts to give up such a proven thing like LaRoche when you are left with question marks to take his place. Especially when it seemed like WE were in the driver’s seat in this one and not the Pirates, so I figured the only way this deal would go down is if they caved and we got Duffy or one of the big 4. I have a bad feeling that $$ had a little too much to do with JS giving in, and that part’s even harder to stomach (not JS’s fault, I know, he’s got to play the hand he’s dealt. it’s just a stomach punch to fans to know that the purse strings being tightened by corporate j******* with no passion for what is best for the ‘baseball team’ is what causes the GM to make certain decisions that we’ve not been accustomed to making).

Let’s hope some of the young guys step up (or this leads to a trade for Baldelli or another stick) and we get that division title streak rolling again!

By MBATL

January 17, 2007 06:00 PM | Link to this

rammerjammer, that might make sense. They do have, from what I’ve read, a lot of guys who are talented but a little off the radar. We don’t really need “big league ready” starting pitching, but we need guys to develop as Smoltz, Hampton, Hudson play out their contracts. So something like that might make sense. We’ll see…

JC from Utah; you’re right. Sure seems like this deal was waiting for the GM’s to know the arbitration/contract numbers.

By DonCoburleone

January 17, 2007 06:00 PM | Link to this

How much of this do you think is another cost-cutting move by John Scheurholz? I mean, arbitration numbers for Laroche come out 2 days ago and now suddenly LaRoche is off to Pittsburgh in a trade that could have happened 4 weeks ago? That’s just too big a coincidence for me to buy. This team has turned into an NFL franchise, meaning the salary cap is responsible for about half of all personnel moves… Where is Ted Turner when you need him?

By Mr. J

January 17, 2007 06:03 PM | Link to this

I know its a”dead” issue, but Chipper should play 1st, and Aybar gets to play every day at 3rd and lead off.

By MBATL

January 17, 2007 06:05 PM | Link to this

rammerjammer, that might make sense. They do have, from what I’ve read, a lot of guys who are talented but a little off the radar (injuries, etc). We don’t really need “big league ready” starting pitching, but we need guys to develop as Smoltz, Hampton, Hudson play out their contracts. So something like that might make sense. We’ll see…

JC from Utah; you’re right. Sure seems like this deal was waiting for the GM’s to know the arbitration/contract numbers.

By DonCoburleone

January 17, 2007 06:05 PM | Link to this

How much of this do you think is another cost-cutting move by John Scheurholz? I mean, arbitration numbers for Laroche come out 2 days ago and now suddenly LaRoche is off to Pittsburgh in a trade that could have happened 4 weeks ago? That’s just too big a coincidence for me to buy. This team has turned into an NFL franchise, meaning the salary cap is responsible for about half of all personnel moves… Where is Ted Turner when you need him?

By AdirondackDave

January 17, 2007 06:06 PM | Link to this

This looks like the situation to me: for the next few years our budget will be tight so we have to put together the best club we can, one year at a time. This sets up the bullpen, improves the starters, and we’ve still got a run-producing line-up. Things look good to me for ‘07. It’s the prospective loss of Andruw in ‘08 that scares the bajeezus out of me if JS doesn’t reel in Baldelli or something similar.

By N8

January 17, 2007 06:11 PM | Link to this

Laroche: 32 HR and 90+ RBI

What’s to say that Thorman (and his platoon partner - What’s that? You actually assumed Thorman would play EVERY DAY?), aren’t gonna combine for about 20-25 HR and 75-90 RBI? Hell, I’d put money on Thorman being a 20HR 70 RBI guy ALL BY HIMSELF.

Now, as far as 1B defense? That’s a different story. LaRoche’s glove will be missed BIG TIME!

But I doubt that the offense will miss a beat. Especially with Francoeur and McCann having one more year under their belt.

Make no mistake, this move made the Braves a better TEAM today. Not to mention, that JS is likely up to something else to solve leadoff/LF.

When looking at our bullpen, can you say 1996 Yankees? (Wettland, Rivera, Lloyd). Grinch is right, people. We now have 6 inning games to worry about. Not bad considering that with (Hampton and Hudson, not to mention Smolt’s age), our starters haven’t been models of consistancy when it comes to stamina. JS did the RIGHT thing.

Nice Job JS. Well done.

By DonCoburleone

January 17, 2007 06:13 PM | Link to this

Is there a new blog up yet?

By MBATL

January 17, 2007 06:16 PM | Link to this

DonC, I don’t think John Scheurholz is cutting costs at all. If he had $200 mil to spend, I’m sure he’d spend it. From what I hear, he has limits imposed by his employers.

Aside from that, seems to me that this deal saves us less than one million at best, and if the mysterious “player to be named” is on our ML roster, it probably saves less than half that. Just don’t think that’s the motivation.

By Ron

January 17, 2007 06:22 PM | Link to this

Hope the Braves got somebody else in the deal at least. You guys are all forgetting that Andruw will be gone next season, that will be alot of offense gone, hope Thorman is the answer but I think Thorman will put up LaRoche numbers up, when LaRoche was a Rookie. Gotta believe the Braves are goin after Baldelli, because the Braves did not even get a leadoff hitter, hope this does not come back and bit JS in the a*. Yall do remember that Gonzalez missed September last year because of a injury. Most Closers do not have a high living rate(remember Gagne).

By JCB

January 17, 2007 06:25 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB What do you think the chances of the second player being someone the Braves could then turn around and trade for Baldelli or something like that? Just doesnt make any sense for JS to trade LaRoche and a prospect for Gonzo and a prospect unless something else is going to go down shortly afterwards

By Ricardo

January 17, 2007 06:31 PM | Link to this

I’d love to know how else they got. Still, this is going to be basically LaRoche for Gonzalez. A guy like like Gonzalez, a hard throwing lefty closer, is much harder to come by than a guy like LaRoche. And I like AL - think he’s a very good young player. Games should now be 5-6 inning long. Seriously, who has a bullpen in all of baseball that touches ours?

Good move.

By ncscoots

January 17, 2007 06:33 PM | Link to this

Lew makes good points about shortening the game, but he overstates somewhat. Unless you expect Gonzalez, Soriano, and Wickman to make 60+ appearances each, in which case their arms will have fallen off long before the postseason, anyway. The bullpen is definitely stronger, yes, but you still want 200 innings out of your starters. No bullpen, no matter how good, can consistently succeed throwing 500+ innings a year.

Most on the blog know I’m a big Mike Gonzalez fan AND a Scott Thorman fan, and I’ll certainly withold judgment until the rest of the trade details are known. But the thought that Mike Gonzalez just brought the NL pennant with him is a mistaken one.

By Robert

January 17, 2007 06:36 PM | Link to this

“I’ll give you evidence of what Cox does to win games—2171-1686, .563 winning percentage…and that’s career. His record with the Braves is 1816-1394, .566, four pennants and a World Series. Four MGR of the Year awards, three with the Braves. “

Context. Doesnt it matter one bit who the wins were against?

Because by your reckoning, if Cox could lead the Braves to a 70-30 record against the Little League World Champions, he’d have become an even better manager

Shaun, let me manage for twenty years and give me a rotation of Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz, and damn I’ll be right up there in career winning percentage, even if I never show up for work

Y’all need to learn to differentiate between

1)cause and effect - Cox has those wins because of the teams he managed - the teams didnt get the wins because Cox managed

and 2)quality vs quantity - So Cox has complied a bunch of wins - Without considering who they were against, it doesnt mean anything at all

Don C - I agree with you in not having a high opinion of Chipper’s leadership - He is Cox’s boy, thru and thru.

If Chipper being a leader, it’s Cox’s job to find someone else to do it.

McMichael or Clontz was the proper choice for the 8th inning in game 4 of the 1996 WS

Given McMichael’s struggles in game 3, you’d have to go with Clontz

Or guess what - maybe Avery shoulda pitched the 6th and then Bielecki woulda been available to pitch the 8th

Ever consider that Cox screwed it up even before he screwed it up worse by pitching Wohlers in the 8th?

Shaun - You asked for the 5-8 HOFers -

The sure 5 - Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Chipper, Andru

Then consider - McGriff, Galarraga, Lofton, Lopez

Not saying the latter four are locks, (and not even saying I;d vote for any of em) but I think two of em have a decent chance - call it 6.5

I’d vote for the first five - I’ll betcha McGriff and/or Galarrage eventually make it

By DonCoburleone

January 17, 2007 06:39 PM | Link to this

“What’s to say that Thorman (and his platoon partner - What’s that? You actually assumed Thorman would play EVERY DAY?)”

Who exactly is going to platoon with Thorman then? Woodward? LOL… No but seriously though, wouldn’t we have to trade for one?

By Robert

January 17, 2007 06:42 PM | Link to this

The trade with the Pirates makes sense, at least on paper.

The Braves trade their 4th or 5th best hitter for bullpen help

It’s gonna depend on whether Gonzalez can reestablish the command he showed in 04 (K/BB of 55/6

If not, then his 62 walks in 104 innings the past two seasons indicate a bomb ready to go off - and we know donkey likes to play with matches as witnessed by the Reitsma Chronicles of 05-06

By DonCoburleone

January 17, 2007 06:47 PM | Link to this

We do have a stellar bullpen now, probably tops in the NL, but I still say both Detroit and LA Angels have a better pen than we do…

By Robert

January 17, 2007 06:55 PM | Link to this

Carroll - you are right on

Shaun cant differentiate between what would be the worst thing for a coming batter to do vs what wouldve been the worst thing for a past batter to have done

The strikeout is the one-out play that has the least pre-event likelihood of contributing to the scoring of a run.

Just because a small fraction of the time something worse happens on a play other than a strikeout, that doesnt change the PRE-EVENT probabilities

By DonCoburleone

January 17, 2007 06:57 PM | Link to this

“and we know donkey likes to play with matches as witnessed by the Reitsma Chronicles of 05-06”

Robert how dare you say that name again… We are to never speak of him on this blog, he was never a Brave…

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 17, 2007 06:57 PM | Link to this

I’m not that hot on this deal. I’m no fan of Duffy’s but I think he or one of their pitchers (even a reliever) should have been included in the deal. I don’t get it. Why didn’t this deal just get done at the winter meetings. This is the same exact deal that it was said JS decided against at the last minute. I will reserve total judgement until I find out the second player.

I said all along that I thought JS had something big in the works and I still say that. I think (or am hoping) that this is just one execution of the master plan. I like Thorman but I can’t believe the Braves will have him play everyday. I wonder if this is setting up a deal to acquire Kotchman or perhaps Jacque Jones. Of course, I don’t see how Jones’ salary could be worked into the budget.

One other possible scenario is that this will allow the Braves to offer Davies and either Paronto, Yates, or Villereal in a deal to the Devil Rays for Baldelli. Maybe? I am just unsure of where JS is going with this.

I advocated trading LaRoche but only if it solved at least two of the three needs the Braves had. (Starting pitching, lefty for the pen, and a leadoff hitter) This deal only solved one. I, also, wonder if this could mean the Braves believe that Gregor Blanco could be their answer in LF and leadoff. He had a solid year in the minors two years ago and an almost breakout year last season. He actually became better after getting promoted to AAA from AA last year. He has continued to play well in winter ball. Maybe JS believes this guy is for real.

By Blake

January 17, 2007 06:58 PM | Link to this

I read that Braves may flip Gonzalez

By Robert

January 17, 2007 07:03 PM | Link to this

I’m more concerned about the 29 teams that better managers than we do than I am about the handful who have better bullpens

By ArkyTech

January 17, 2007 07:05 PM | Link to this

Good move, regardless of who else they get. Two reasons:

1) LaRoche has had 2 great months in his career - his stock won’t get higher (remember, we wanted rid of him in mid-June?) and there’s no guarantee that he will continue to play like he did the 2nd half last year.

2) Pitching. Pitching wins! The ‘pen will be filthy. We can find offense - and shouldn’t need much. The level this strengthens our pitching staff outweighs whatever dropoff there might be at first base. Basically McBride, Devine, Boyer, Villreal, Cormier, Ray, and Paronto are battling for 3 spots. Now that’s an upgrade!

By DonCoburleone

January 17, 2007 07:05 PM | Link to this

“Don C - I agree with you in not having a high opinion of Chipper’s leadership - He is Cox’s boy, thru and thru.”

“If Chipper being a leader, it’s Cox’s job to find someone else to do it.”

WRONG! Scheurholz is the one who drafts these players and brings them up and decides to trade them if he deems it necessary. Team leaders are not appointed, they step up and do it on their own… If you blame Cox for someone on the Braves not stepping up and becomming a leader, then I’ll have to believe that this thing you have for BC really is personal…

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 17, 2007 07:08 PM | Link to this

mlbtraderumors.com is saying that the Pirates included Brent Lillibridge in the deal. Lillibridge is a SS who looks to be a very good player. He had very good numbers last season and looks to be a basestealing threat. He played in AA last year. If this is true, this only mystifies things even more. The Braves already have two top notch shortstops, one of which is all but ready to play in the majors (Escobar). It seems that Lillibridge is close to being major league ready as well. Could this mean a deal sending Escobar somewhere is in the works?

By Lew

January 17, 2007 07:11 PM | Link to this

Scoots-I don’t expect Gonzalez and Soriano to pitch every game. We still have Villarreal, McBride, Yates, Paronto and Boyer. I also think Smoltz will still pitch 6+ innings, but no longer has to go 8 or 9 and you know damn well that’s what he was doing. I also think James should go 6 or 7. However, Hudson blew up in the 6th how many times. This is no longer an issue. Hampton being forced to go more innings than necessary is now avoided. I think this move definitely brings the division back. Every one of our pitching problems from last year is solved now and probably, with Matt Harrison and JoJO Reyes in the wings, for three or more years to come. Both Soriano and Gonzlez are on their first arbitration. We now have them locked up for at least three years. This was not a take care of now deal. I also don’t think JS is done. We have a huge glut of pitching and left fielders with Langerhans, Diaz and Blanco. We also have excess middle infielders with Escobar. There will be more deals done.

By Carolina Lady

January 17, 2007 07:13 PM | Link to this

My, how things change! How many were screaming for LaRoche’s head, calling him disparaging names, etc only months ago? The few who defended him were scoffed and sneered at. I wish him the very best and sincerely hope he has a sterling career wherever he goes. Godspeed, Adam!

By DonCoburleone

January 17, 2007 07:13 PM | Link to this

“There could be a financial motivation behind the Braves’ decision to pull the trigger on the trade. On Tuesday, the Pirates signed Gonzalez to a one-year deal worth $2.35 million, thus avoiding the arbitration process. The Braves could not agree to terms with LaRoche before the Tuesday deadline for teams to exchange salary figures with arbitration-eligible players. Atlanta made an offer of $2.8 million to LaRoche, who is seeking $3.7 million.”

BINGO!

By Lew

January 17, 2007 07:18 PM | Link to this

Arky-Ray is with the Royals.

By TennesseePaul

January 17, 2007 07:21 PM | Link to this

Holy Shnikes! LaRoche Traded!? After I was sold on his abilities. eh. not too disappointed. Stoked for Thorman. Hope for the best and all and all.

Nathan: You had posted earlier to Payne’s K machine he wishes to build (Payne, kidding of course). Any who you noted Francoeur’s K rate. I went and checked. So, here it is. The numbers Francoeur put up with people on base, ie, bases, not empty.

Francoeur with runners on:
AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO AVG
278 68 80 7 2 14 88 14 51 .288

Now, I don’t usually buy into this SABRmetric mindset, but I will agree with Payne on the caveats. Sometimes a K is better. Though, in principle and in general, a K is the worst out one could make. I will always believe this. It’s simple to prove. Putting the ball in play opens more possibilities in general and more chance of scoring, reaching base, and generally being productive as opposed to the K. Now, thinking about this and looking at the numbers, the order of outs from worst to best would be: Merkle Boner, K, Triple Play, Double Play, everything else. The reason I’d list them this way is because the K takes 99.9999% of the possiblity of reaching base, or moving a runner or being productive on any level, out of the equation. If the ball is hit in play, regardless of the eventual outcome, it is more likely to result in a positive action than a strike-out would. A ball in play has infinitely more possibilities than a strikeout.
Payne: For the same reasons as you would point to K, BB, HR as prime stats for a pitcher, the K is least prime for a hitter. The DIPS of a pitcher are the pros/cons of a hitter. Hitting the ball in play allows for more outcomes than a K could ever produce.

Having said all that, Francoeur’s numbers look pretty good despite his high K ratio. And, having said all that, it isn’t as simple as having a common card player vs an all star player, as Payne had presented (Young vs Thome). You will always, I repeat, always, want a hitter that puts the ball in play as opposed to K, assuming all else is equal. (Payne, if the guy sucks and barely Ks, I don’t want him. And if it’s a choice of sucky K man or 40+ homer guy, anyone would take 40+ homer guy if only for the added revenue of the long ball.) For a further analysis, Payne, go look at all the top AVG guys, single season and career and compare them to all the top homer guys. I haven’t done this, but I wouldn’t be surpised if the high AVG guys have fewer Ks. And, don’t give me your schtick about AVG/OBP. You stated the other day you’d analize a guy based on AVG, OBP, SLG and so forth.

By DonCoburleone

January 17, 2007 07:21 PM | Link to this

Brent Lillibridge? Huh? Are you sure he played in AA last year? At least this guy can steal bases though… Maybe they are going to flip Gonzo and a prospect for Baldelli? I wouldn’t though…

By MBATL

January 17, 2007 07:36 PM | Link to this

RJIB, Lillibridge looks like a stud of a prospect - steals bases, hits for power and OBP - but all at an A level so far.

BTW, I don’t think Escobar is in our future, so that (IMO) narrows our future SS’s to just Andruws.

If your rumor is true, Lillibridge looks like a guy you’d love to have in your organization, but it’s hard to see just where he fits in this deal.

Don, I understand on the money. But assuming Laroche at $3.2 mil, and Gonzo at $2.4 (he’s got some incentives in there, I think), and assuming the other player is a prospect, that saves us all of $800K. I do not think even the tight-fisted Braves would make a bad deal in order to save $800K. Maybe I’m wrong.

I have to think it boils down to the Braves thinking that Thorman is capable of picking up the slack at 1B (and that maybe Adam’s ridiculous July and August werent’ representative of his abilities). So we pick up a prized lefty reliever and a prized prospect for a player we can more or less replace. I can live with it.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 17, 2007 07:38 PM | Link to this

I wonder what the Braves will do about their now sudden log jam in the pen? Wickman, Soriano, Gonzales, Villeareal, and McBride are locks. It would seem that Paronto, Yates, Sturtze, Moylan, Stockman, and Devine are fighting for the last two spots. I would think Cormier gets sent to Richmond. Now, I could also see the Braves flipping Gonzales. The Braves could offer Gonzales, Davies, and Escobar for Baldelli. If the Rays bit, the Braves could sign somebody like Ron Villone to fill that lefty spot. Cormier or Harrison could then fill the #5 hole. Who knows? I guarantee that this deal was a move to set up another move. That jerk at the Bucco Blog actually predicted this yesterday. He said you have to read into what JS said. Remember, JS did say that the roster today may not be the same as the one that comes out of spring training. He said that meant a deal would get done with LaRoche. I guess he was right. I think that was a loaded statement as well. JS knows he not only has to make the team better for ‘07 but beyond because Andruw is gone after this season if not before.

By David O'Brien

January 17, 2007 07:47 PM | Link to this

Robert, it didn’t get done at the winter meetings for couple reasons. 1. Once the Braves got Soriano for Ramirez, they weren’t desperate to get a setup man. They still wanted more pitching, more relief pitching specifically, but figured they didn’t need to rush to trade LaRoche at that point because they’d try to get more for him from the Pirates than just Gonzalez.

Personally, I don’t like the deal. If they’d gotten Duffy, I’d see the reasoning because he could play left and move into center if and when Andruw leaves. Or if they’d have gotten one of their top young starters, because that would solidify rotation after Hampton and Smoltz are gone. But if it’s just a prospect, a guy not ready to play this year, I don’t like it.

But hey, Braves obviously feel like LaRoche’s value perhaps isn’t going to be higher and could be significantly lower if he has a bad season, or a little of that and a belief that Thorman really is ready to have a good season.

Money is surely part of it, but not the driving reason for this deal. They were absolutely, positively determined to avoid a repeat of last year’s bullpen nightmares, night after night watching them blow games in the early season as the Mets built a division lead. Braves weren’t going to let that happen again.

I’ll say this: That pitching staff, with that dramatically improved bullpen (I’d say it’s best in the NL right now, on paper) and Hampton back in the rotation, a year of experience for James and Hudson (I talked to him two nights ago) really serious about getting back to his old self … that pitching staff could be the Braves’ most well-rounded staff in a while, at least since the great bullpen of 2002.

And this unit, unlike that one, isn’t going to nee fluke and/or career-best performances from everyone to be great. Just health and the same kind of work that the big guys (Wickman, Soriano, Gonzalez) have done before, plus don’t forget the expected May return of Sturtze, who was pretty solid most of the time for Yanks and has experience under pressure, on the big stage, etc.

By Lew

January 17, 2007 07:51 PM | Link to this

RJIB-Not so sure about Cormier ending back in Richmond. I think it likely Davies is odd man out. I think Villarreal and Cormier will ultimately battle for the #5 slot in the rotation. I’d go with Cormier and leave Oscar for long relief. He excelled last season in that role.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 17, 2007 07:55 PM | Link to this

For what it is worth Lillibridge was the Pirates top rated infield prospect. The Braves may wind up getting a steal in the end.

By David O'Brien

January 17, 2007 07:59 PM | Link to this

It is indeed SS prospect Brent Lillibridge, 23, coming from Pirates, and he’s a real good one by all accounts, exceptional both offensively and defensively and could be ready for majors in a year or so.

Hit .305 with 13 homers, 71 RBIs and 53 stolen bases in 66 attempts last season while splitting time between low-A and high-A teams.

Braves gave up another guy in the deal, too, but it’s only a minor league outfielder, Jamey Romak, not one of their prospects.

By ncscoots

January 17, 2007 08:24 PM | Link to this

Wow. 30HR and Gold Glove D for a 50-inning pitcher and an A-level prospect at a position currently stocked. Hope young Brent isn’t afraid of playing 2B, since he’ll have to be the second coming of Jeff Kent to even this deal out.

Braves obviously do not believe that LaRoche’s 2006 offensive burst has any legs, IMO, or else they think even more of Gonzalez than I do! Only those two scenarios make this deal look sane to me, and I’m pretty sure JS ain’t crazy.

By brian

January 17, 2007 08:31 PM | Link to this

Might this mean Gonzalez or Soriano plus Escobar to Devil Rays for Baldelli? Getting another top SS prospect probably means JS has something cooking with Escobar, though it is never wrong to stockpile young talent

By Greg in TN

January 17, 2007 08:36 PM | Link to this

Hey folks…

Well, an interesting day to say the least. In the context of this deal on it’s own, I’m not a big fan of it, but I’m not going to through JS under the bus because of it.

There could be several things at work here. JS could be using this as a stepping stone to another deal. Whether this is something that gives JS flexibility to go after Baldelli or somebody else.

I think if the status quo stays the same, I see this year with Wick closing and Soriano and Gonzalez in effect auditioning to be the closer in 2008 and beyond. I don’t see Wick hanging around after this year if things stay the same. Not sure if that’s good or bad or what, but that’s my gut feeling.

JS has plenty of time to strike another deal if he is so inclined. The eyes of Georgia will be on Scott Thorman in a month or so. I think the kid will be just fine.

Good luck in the steel city, Adam.

By MBATL

January 17, 2007 08:38 PM | Link to this

Or a deal with the Yanks for Cabrera and Proctor???

By flange1

January 17, 2007 08:41 PM | Link to this

Hi All,

Lew, as always, I agree with you! By making the games shorter ALL of their pitchers will benefit. I remeber the year Seanez had the 7th, Rem the 8th and smoltz to finish….

But something of this trade, especially the timing and with the SHORTSTOP prospect coming, a position the Braves are VERY deep in, makes me think there is another one coming QUICKLY….

Why else would we have 3 of our top prospects be shortstops?

Thoughts?

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 17, 2007 09:29 PM | Link to this

MBATL, I was thinking the same thing. That is about the Yankees. I wonder if the Braves may attempt to acquire Cabrerra. I was thinking along the lines of Langerhans and Parronto/Yates along with Escobar for Cabrerra. The Yanks could definitely use Escobar as insurance for Jeter. Never know what could happen. The Yanks definitely need any bullpen help they could get. Lanerhans would soften the blow of Cabrerra and could serve as a late inning defensive replacement for either Matsui or Damon since neither of them are that strong defensively.

By Rosalynn

January 17, 2007 09:37 PM | Link to this

Adam LaRoche was one of Jimma’s favahrite playahs. Adam and Jimma would sometimes eat peanuts togetha ovah by fuhst base. Adam sometimes would forget to shell his peanut befoah putting it in his mouth. Jimma would just laugh and laugh but Adam was not doing that on puhpose. Jimma and I wish Adam a happa life in Pittsbugh and we hope Adam becomes a big stah in the majah leagues. Jimma thinks the right side of the Braves infield is suspect now. Being strong up the middle means everathing to a ballclub and it makes the pitchas betta. Jimma’s administration was always strong up the middle with Cyrus Vance and Edmund Muska. Jimma is worried about who will play second base now. Maybe one of those shawtstops can step up. Can nevah have too many shawtstops.

By N8

January 17, 2007 09:38 PM | Link to this

DOB

I have to agree with you on the surface, I’m not sure I like the deal.

But having said that, I LOVE OUR NEW LOOK BULLPEN!

I’ll take our chances with Hampton coming back and our games, darn near turning into 6 inning affairs, over last years ALL OFFENSE - NO BULLPEN fiasco.

I’d imagine that the kid SS will get a “look” in the spring.

Nice work today DOB

Nice work JS. At least he didn’t sit on his hands this offseason.

By bergian

January 17, 2007 09:44 PM | Link to this

I think those suggesting that another trade is in the works, are right. I would not hurt to have this much relief(Wickman cannot pitch back to back to back-check his career numbers, and overall inning totals per year are pretty low) but we will be low on the offense in ‘08 without LaRoche and Andruw….but then, not saying anything we don’t already now.

By Glass Half Full (GHF)

January 17, 2007 09:46 PM | Link to this

Lot of bullpen arms now, and that’s good. If the D-rays would take Davies, Escobar, and/or Salty for Baldelli, I’d do the deal. Villareal or Cormier as the 5th starter. Oscar was better starting than out of the pen.

By brian

January 17, 2007 09:56 PM | Link to this

will this kid get a look at 2B this spring?

By Robert

January 17, 2007 10:27 PM | Link to this

Don C - let’s compromise on this one

I agree that Cox, or any other manager for that matter, can not make a leader out of a guy who does not have it in him

On the other hand, what Cox CAN do, is to identify someone on the team who DOES have leadership ability/qualities, and, tho he may be less enior than Chipper, he, as manager, can begin to treat that player like a team leader - and thereby induce the rest of the team to start to defer to the leader over the guy who may be senior and may be a “captain” but isnt leading

Get my drift?

But that might mean ruffling Chippey’s feathers, and then he wouldnt be swinging the bat so good, and then he wouldnt be able to get 65 rbi for the umpteenth consecutive season, and then Wickmaney and Gonzalezey might get upset and then they wouldnt be throwing the ball so good and then they’d make two or three bad pitches instead of one and well if one bad pitch results in 5 or 6 runs, think how many runs we’d give up on 2 or 3 bad pitches and then the division title might be at stake and then they’d run out of carrots, and then he;d have to pull a turd out of his nose, and so on and so on

By Lew

January 17, 2007 10:38 PM | Link to this

Hey Flange-How you been, Dude? MBATL-Not real sure just why we would want Proctor. Seems we’re loaded in the bullpen. RJIB-I like the idea of Yates/Paronto, Escobar and DIAZ to the Yankees for Cabrera. Got to keep Langerhans for next year. We need that defense.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 17, 2007 10:59 PM | Link to this

I’ll be interested to hear what JS has to say about this deal. I’m with DOB and some others in not necessarily liking this deal. My main reason for disliking the deal is that it didn’t do what we were led to believe any deal would do which was address at least two of the three needs the Braves have. Now, if this deal is merely a piece to set up another move then I will shut up.

I basically see this deal getting done for one of two reasons. One, JS is overcompensating for last year’s bullpen fiasco and is ensuring that such a collapse can’t happen this season. Gonazles and Soriano provide insurance in case Wickman tanks. Not to mention it gives the Braves the best bullpen in the NL and closes the gap in relation to overall pitching in the NL. The Padres, Brewers, and Dodgers have better overall staffs, but this deal places the Braves right there among those teams.

The other motive behind this deal could be to merely setup another deal. Perhaps, a deal with the Cubs to acquire Jacque Jones. Jones would definitely help soften the blow of losing LaRoche in the offense and give JS some time and flexibility to find Andruw’s replacement. Jones is signed through 2008, which also happens to be when Hampton’s contract is up and a lot of money would be freed. Can you say Carl Crawford? He will be a free agent. The more obvious options would be to flip Gonzales to the Rays for Baldelli or the Yanks for Cabrerra. I am not all that sure however the Rays would bite on Gonzales. They want starters. Of course, they would be crazy not to take him.

Another thing this trade could do is give the Braves a bit more comfortability in trading Hudson now. The Rangers would be very interested in Hudson and could be willing to give up Robinson Tejada. The Blue Jays would be a great option. Acquiring Alex Rios would be a coup for the Braves and would solve the leadoff situation and Andruw’s replacement. The Braves could sign Ohka or Armas Jr. or even ask for Chacin as part of a deal. I say it would give the Braves some comfortability because while Ohka, Armas, or even Chacin are not of Hudson’s caliber the Braves would have such a strong bullpen that all that would be asked of those guys is to give 5 or 6 solid innings. I believe the Jays would definitely listen because their rotation right now is only the fourth best in the division. With Hudson they would at least have a fighting chance for 3rd place. I think Chacin would perhaps be a bit too much to ask but the chance to get Rios should definitely be explored.

I’m merely thinking out loud. But, I said all along that JS was working on a deal or something big. Things became way too quiet. This move doesn’t surprise me at all and I firmly believe that the wheeling and dealing isn’t done.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 17, 2007 11:23 PM | Link to this

Weighing in on today’s topics (after having watched the show on ABC about 1200 lb guys trying to lose 900 lbs of fat, plus 100 lbs of loose skin - not pretty).

Given that I am posting, no doubt DOB’s new blog will be up in 5 minutes, or so. Count on it.

LaRoche - I have had mixed feelings about letting him go since the first time I heard about the proposed deal. That was well before we stole Soriano from the Mariners. I’m all for as many good arms on the staff as we can get - but, Adam really started to come around this year. And yes, his trade value is perhaps at its zenith. I don’t buy the salary dump theory - I think JS had already factored his potential salary into the overall equation for this year.

I agreed with the thought that if the Braves could get Gonzalez and another player who would help them this year, go for it - otherwise, let it slide. However, it became clear that the Bucs had such a hard on for LaRoche, they weren’t going to give up. I agree that this is not the last trade JS will make - he’s working on something else, though I doubt the Rays are going to give up Baldelli without getting James, which I hope is not going to happen. Hell, at least we have something to talk about, in terms of what has happened, instead of what may happen. Overall, this was probably an even trade - we didn’t steal this one. We’ll see how it works out.

Robert and Shaun - you are two pigs in a poke - Robert (surprised you haven’t set up “firebobbycox.com”), talk about something else - PLEASE. Shaun (stat geek) - ditto. You are both intelligent people, but your cred is severely lowered here when you keep arguing the same points, over and over.

Grinch - you may be right about this deal. JS has generally avoided stinkers over the years, even if he didn’t hit a home run with every trade - only time will tell.

JJS - you have lowered yourself to talking about neutered chimps? Oh, the humanity!! Let’s go back to midget pies. I can take toe talk over that moribund topic.

Rosalynn - where are you? Jimma lock you in a closet?

By Robert

January 17, 2007 11:47 PM | Link to this

“Robert (surprised you haven’t set up “firebobbycox.com”)”

I hadnt thought of that !!! Tho, now that you mention it, I remember a firebobboone.com site a few years back set up by an irate Reds fan (and ole Babb Boone was eventually canned)

I gotta look into this, tho I have no experience setting up a website.

If I follow thru with it, I’ll definately give you credit for the idea Scalp

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 17, 2007 11:50 PM | Link to this

By the way - I’m quitting smoking cigarettes tomorrow - a nearly 30 year habit which hasn’t killed me yet, but if I keep it up, it will. Any words of encouragement, advice from former smokers, is much appreciated. If I could change one thing in my life, I wouldn’t have smoked that first cig. Tough habit to break (I know, have quit at least 20 times). This time, though, I’m going to do it, and be a tobacco addict who doesn’t give, forever.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 17, 2007 11:55 PM | Link to this

Robert:

Hope you get it all worked out. Rest assured I will never visit the site. You will no doubt draw compadres who share your views on BC, and perhaps you will quit your rants here on the blog - peace, brother.

(and Lew, you and I agree on blogger Bobby/Robert)

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 17, 2007 11:56 PM | Link to this

Like I said, I honestly think that Gonzales could be a pawn in a much bigger deal. Sending him to the Cubs for Jones and perhaps a Sean Marshall would be very nice. The Cubs may be willing to make the deal because Jones wants out of Chicago…as in yesterday. The Cubs need a closer. I honestly can’t believe that they are going to rely on Kerry Wood or Ryan Demptser. Jones is signed through the 2008 season and that would give JS time to find a long term replacement for Andruw, whether that comes internally or externally. With the Braves budget being so tight I think Jones would be difficult but if JS could get them to pay part of Jones’ salary for ‘07 a deal could get done.

I see obtaining Baldelli as a much harder proposition unless the Rays blink. You never know they could settle on Davies, Escobar, and Salty. I definitely think the Rays are finding out that nobody will give them exactly what they want since the Baldelli talk has went cold in the last few weeks. Remember it being said that four other teams beside the Braves were interested. Well, those teams were never revealed and my guess is that they all told Tampa Bay they were crazy if they thought any team would give them two “major league experienced” starting pitchers.

As I said earlier, I think Alex Rios should be watched. With Gonzales in the fold trading Hudson is a bit more appetizing now. Hudson’s replacement isn’t going to be as good as he is but with a bullpen featuring Gonzales, Soriano, Wickman, Yates, McBride, and Paronto/Boyer the game becomes shortened and the starters don’t have to go seven and eight innings like they did last season.

Whatever the case, I believe the next few days will prove to be very interesting. I had a feeling something was in the works a few weeks ago and I have the same feeling that this isn’t the only deal to be made.

By David O'Brien

January 17, 2007 11:58 PM | Link to this

Scalp ‘em, I’ll hold off putting up a new blog in deference to your latest post. (Kidding. I’ll hold up doing it because I’m tired as hell. What a day. Meeting at work, then I’m at gym ready to get on treadmill when I get a call that the deal’s going down. Fortunately I hadn’t gotten on the treadmill yet, or I’d have missed the call for about an hour….)

Anyway, I don’t like the trade, but talk to me in a couple years when this kid shortstop is up with Braves. Might change my mind by then, or sooner if this heavily fortified ‘pen proves to be the difference for the Braves.

They’d better get at least as much offense from everyone else as they got last year, because that right side (Kelly J, Thorman) is almost certainly not going to produce as much as Giles/LaRoche. But we’ll see. Could be another move to come, but I’m doubting it will be anything major.

But Braves certainly have a surplus of middle infielders and prospects. Guess this means that either the new guy Brent Lillibridge or Elvis Andrus could be moved to 2B. Folks, I’m told Lillibridge (No. 4 prospect for Pirates) is absolutely a stud. He’s older (23) because he played at Univ. of Washington. Has serious speed, great OBP, etc.

Should be here in perhaps two years, maybe even quicker if necessary. Braves are covered at SS after Renteria leaves, for sure.

Haven’t talked to anybody yet about whether Escobar is on the block, but I’d imagine he is and has been all winter. I’ll check around tomorrow to see if anything new with Baldelli, but I’m guessing the Braves are about done with big moves, though Baldelli only makes $750,000 next season.

Man, if Braves could pull off a trade for him … then I’d really, really feel good about this team, even with loss of LaRoche.

With that bullpen, they’ve effecively reduced a lot of games to 6-7 innings. It might seem like overkill, but think about the question marks the Braves have with some starters because of age/health. If this allows them to not have to try to squeeze out more innings from Hampton and even Smoltz, then it could pay off huge in that way, too.

Lot of offense lost. But wow, what a ‘pen.

By Tony Almeida

January 18, 2007 12:05 AM | Link to this

The Braves just lost 30 HR’s and 90+ RBI’s. Will it be worth it for the bullpen? Who knows. Still no leadoff hitter, still no 2nd baseman, and now no 1st baseman either. Kelly Johnson will fail at second base because he CAN’T HIT!!! Scott Thorman? NO, no Adam LaRoche. Bad Trade. I liked Adam. Sad that he has to go to such a crappy team.

Good job Schuerholtz. The bullpen looked fine before this trade. Should have been working on a leadoff hitter and second basemen. You got neither. Pat yourself on the back all you want. Now we have offensive troubles. Thanks.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 18, 2007 12:12 AM | Link to this

DOB:

Geez man, you made a liar out of me.

As we know from the past 15 years, strong pitching can make up for a lack of offense. I’m excited about out pitching next year - especially since the Muts had such a strong pen this past year - of course, they also had the best lead off hitter in the majors (in my opinion, Reyes was the man), power and timely hitting from a few (Wright, Beltran, who finally lived up to expectations, and occasionally from LoDuca, Floyd (when he was healthy), and even the second baseman (whose name I cannot remember - but the guy was a ringer for Lee Van Cleef). I liked where we were before this trade - I still like where we are now. Good pitching overcomes good hitting, as a general rule. I think the wished for trade with the Rays is wishful thinking - we can only hope that JS “Baldelli-lust” won’t overcome his good sense.

By Robert

January 18, 2007 12:16 AM | Link to this

I like the trade from one respect, namely that everyone now thinks we have a great bullpen.

So we will now be able to prove that not having a good bullpen was what kept Cox from being able to win

Now, before anyone tries to make a pre-excuse that we gave up too much offense, remember that we still have the core of McCann,The Joneses, and Frenchy

Scalp - Ask your doctor about Chantix. Not cheap, but has a 1yr success rate of about 40%, which in the world of smoking cessation is extremely impressive

By Robert

January 18, 2007 12:28 AM | Link to this

Still no leadoff hitter, still no 2nd baseman, still a donkey in the donkey and now no 1st baseman either.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 18, 2007 12:29 AM | Link to this

Thanks for the tip Robert - I really appreciate it, sincerely.

Now, is there a pill you can take to cure you of your addiction to “BobbyCoxisanidiot”? LOL.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 18, 2007 12:29 AM | Link to this

DOB, is JS really a genius. A guy by the name of Nate Silver who writes for Baseball Prospectus is just giddy about the Braves getting Lillibridge. He thinks JS pulled one over on Littlefield. He even said that it would not be out of the question for Lillibridge to appear in the opening day lineup. He says Lillibridge is very comparable to both Renteria and Furcal. Apparently, Lillibridge stole 53 bases last season, which I think was as much as the Braves did as a team last season. So, is this guy on crack or is this kid THAT good?

By Robert

January 18, 2007 12:52 AM | Link to this

There’s no such pill, but there IS a cure

I only hope that someday soon the Braves finally choose to persue it

By Lew

January 18, 2007 01:12 AM | Link to this

ScalpEm-I quit ten years ago after smoking for 33 years. I used the patches. It’s not easy, but it can be done. Just keep thinking that in a year you’ll be thanking yourself. From personal experience, avoiding your mother-in-law is helpful, also.

By Head Coach

January 18, 2007 01:16 AM | Link to this

Lillibridge is a 4th round pick out of the university of Washington. He has three years of college ball under his belt and yes he is a stud SS. The kid has some pop in his bat(32 homeruns in three years at Washington) , he is a five tooler with power , speed (53 stolen bases last season)and great a great glove defensively. I hate loosing Laroche’s glove and as DOB has already pointed out the infield defense is going to be a problem. Thorman should do an adequate job at first. The Braves have got to be shopping for a backup at first , Darin Erstad is still out thier ??? No question , the bullpen is air tight , lights out and the best on paper in the N.L. I just hope the Braves front office realizes the history of pitchers coming back from tommy john surgery and have seriously considered Oscar villarreal as an option if Hampton or Davies fall off the wagon. No the braves are not done yet , so hang on to your britches. JS is liable to pull another rabbit out of his hat. Jamie Romak , we never knew thee ! Adam Laroche , good luck in Pittsburgh. Your going to need it.

By David O'Brien

January 18, 2007 01:43 AM | Link to this

Roberts (JIB), I’m told the kid SS (not really a kid, at 23) is really that good, that his defense is even better than his offense (and you see those numbers, including a .391 OBP.

I’d guess he could be leading off for the Braves _ in another year or so. Don’t envision him making the jump from A-ball to majors without some time in upper minors.

By Head Coach

January 18, 2007 02:37 AM | Link to this

Wow , the Braves dont have another 1B at all. the three free agent’s are Brian Jordan(washed up) , Phil Nevin (10 million last season and to expensive) and Darin Erstad(another lefty , the Braves would want a right hander to complement Thorman). It’s either another trade or Daiz/T.J. Bohn will be getting a crash course at 1B this spring.

By The Grinch

January 18, 2007 03:30 AM | Link to this

No offense, but you guys bashing this trade are just wrong. Thorman will put up a .270/20/75 season next year playing full time, and be better the year after that. He was the no. 5 prospect in our organization for a reason. The 1B defense will suffer somewhat, but the speed on the basepaths will improve. So we’ve basically given up 10 home runs next year to aquire a lights-out lefty closer/set-up man for the next three years and our SS/2B of the future (allowing us to trade lesser pieces we don’t need anymore for a leadoff/left fielder). This was an absolute coup. Y’all are so flaming negative it boggles my my mind. One more big move is coming, and at the end you’ll see we wound up with dominant righty/lefty power arms in the bullpen, Wicky, this new SS who appears better than anything we had, and more than likely our Andruw replacement (whoever that may be) for Horacio (who wasn’t worth squat), a sore-armed AA catcher, LaRoche (who can and will be replaced by Thorman/Salty, even if it takes a season or two) and whatever surplus players we have now for whover we’re fixing to trade for. Even if another trade doesn’t happen (but I’m sure it will…there’s only so many roster spots) JS has once again fleeced the competition and proven he’s the best in the business. Watch and see. G’night.

By Robert

January 18, 2007 04:50 AM | Link to this

Grinchey, I respect your opinions, but Gonzalez walks too many for me to feel comfortablke about him, the team philosophy doesnt make the most of speed, and Thorman being the organization’s number five prospect says as much or more about the state of the organization than about the talents Thorman’s talent

We’ll see - The SS is a better prospect than I expected to see when the “other player” hadnt been named yet, and hard throwing lefties are always worth a long look

We dealt from strength - LaRoche would project as our fifth offensive producer. If Gonzalez can regain the command he had in 04, the trade is a steal for us regardless of what the other guy becomes.

Look at it another way. LaRoche aint ever gonna be the player who makes or breaks your team. Gonzalez could be - I personally think it’s a longshot, so he could be - and we got a decent prospect to boot

Who knows

By Stinky

January 18, 2007 06:07 AM | Link to this

So DOB got scooped by the Bucco Blog…Probably too busy hob-knobbing with garage bands and disaffected yutes to actually be on his game.

Don’t like Gonzalez for LaRoache. Too much offense gone with this ill wind of change. And Bobby has a way of overusing relievers. And this reliever was shut down for five weeks last year for arm troubles.

One good thing about the trade - Romak for Brent Lillibridge was a steal. Romak, drafted in 2003 and still looking to crack High A, will be selling Michelins by 2008. Lillibridge was a two time All PAC-10 first teamer and batted .305 last year while making the leap to High A in short order. Romak is younger. But he’s Canadian and his Girlfiend is ugly.

By Robert

January 18, 2007 06:33 AM | Link to this

This is priceless

http://www.softballfans.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-5016.html

It’s a blog where people talk about pregame/ingame rituals

I quote from the second post down from the top by “SFlaBaller08”

“My little brother has to eat Chick-Fli-A about 2 hrs before gametime. Then he eats a Snickers and drinks a Red Bull at the field before warmups.Last season we had a stuffed donkey in the dugout. Everyone would rub “El Burro’s” head before coming to the plate.”

Of course, the $100,000 question is “Which member of the Atlanta Braves uses the moniker SFlaBaller08 on-line?”

Number 8 on the Braves last season happened to be Brayan Pena (I kid you not)

My first reaction was to recall exactly who he was, but then I looked at the name again - BRAYan - frickin PRICE-less

That can NOT be coincidence? (can it?)

Henceforth, I will refer to Bobby Cox only as “El Burro”

By Robert

January 18, 2007 06:37 AM | Link to this

“But he’s Canadian and his Girlfiend is ugly.”

Prove it. I want a link to a pic of Romak’s girlfriend

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 18, 2007 07:36 AM | Link to this

If no other deals are made, here is how I see the roster being. Well, at least how JS and Cox are praying that it will work out. They hope Gregor Blanco is for real and that his minor league season last year and his winter ball numbers are not a fluke. They could then put him in LF everyday and have him hit leadoff. Diaz, which I suggested could happen earlier this winter, will get a crash course in playing 1B and will platoon with Thorman. That would leave Langerhans, Aybar, B. Pena, and Woodward on the bench. I would suppose that Prado, Bohn, T. Pena, and Escobar will be fighting for a spot as well.

Now, the Braves could hope that Jurries regains his form and is able to platoon with Thorman. I do believe that Diaz and Langerhans are on the block. Diaz would be the better option because Langerhans’ defense is still needed here and because Diaz is a much better hitter and the perfect platoon and bench guy. I still say the Braves could attempt to pry a Sean Marshall or Carlos Marmoul from the Cubs. The Giants could use Diaz. The Astros could use Diaz. The Yankees and Rangers could use Diaz’s bat also.

By Jared

January 18, 2007 07:51 AM | Link to this

DOB, when/if you talk to John Schuerholz about this deal, see if you can get him to confirm he won’t trade away Mike Gonzalez. I’m really excited about the new bullpen, but I can see him doing his usual annual bad-trade-to-make-up-for-my-good-one(s).

ESPN’s article on the trade says some “baseball insiders” are “speculating” that the Braves “might” flip Gonzalez to the Yankees or some other team. I think that would be a mistake, and it’s obvious ESPN doesn’t really know.

We got our lights-out left-handed reliever. Keep him.

By Stinky

January 18, 2007 07:53 AM | Link to this

Robert, saw her at a game. Even the beer goggles couldn’t help my appraisal.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 18, 2007 08:08 AM | Link to this

I just read that the Tigers could be willing to trade Marcus Thames AND one of their young pitchers (Grilli, Miner, Tata, or Durbin) for a solid lefty reliever. Perhaps, the Braves could offer Gonzales to the Tigers for Thames or Granderson and one of those pitchers. Miner, who was traded to the Tigers from the Braves in ‘05, had some success starting last season. Grilli was a terrific pitcher for the Tigers last year.

I’m telling you that I believe something bigger is in the works. I know I will be called crazy but I still have that Will Carrol article in my head. This guy wouldn’t have just made this crap up. JS has enough sense to know that Andruw is gone after ‘07 and he has no viable replacement. He also knows that LF is okay but by no means in stability. He knows that he has to look beyond ‘07 too. That is where Granderson, Thames, Markakis, Baldelli, and Figgins come into play.

I still think something could be in the works with Andruw. I know people will say that JS has said that no such thing is going on, but he also indicated a couple of weeks ago that talks with the Pirates were going nowhere. Well, that was obviously not the case. Also, I think JS pulled one over on Littlefield. Just imagine if Gonzales did get traded to the Tigers for a starter and either Thames, Granderson, or Craig Monroe (whose name has also been mentioned in trades), the Braves would have basically received a starter, either a power hitting OF in Thames or Monroe or a speedster in Granderson, and a top level SS.

By MEB

January 18, 2007 08:28 AM | Link to this

I feel a little better about this situation with the announcement of Lillibridge as the player to be named. I hope that Chipper’s numbers don’t suffer. Losing a hunting buddy like that could be too traumatic for the ol’boy.

Stinky… that slam of DOB was funny albeit misguided.

By KC

January 18, 2007 09:15 AM | Link to this

Robert: “I know I will be called crazy but I still have that Will Carrol article in my head. This guy wouldn’t have just made this crap up. JS has enough sense to know that Andruw is gone after ‘07 and he has no viable replacement. He also knows that LF is okay but by no means in stability. He knows that he has to look beyond ‘07 too.”

Looking beyond 07’ is exactly the reason they won’t trade Gonzalez.

The great thing about this deal (other than the best bullpen in baseball thing) is that it will put the Braves in a much better financial situation next winter. Remember, Wickman re-signed very early, before anyone knew just how silly the free agent market would get this year. If the Braves had to try and re-sign Wickman again next year (since he only signed a one-year deal) they would likely have to spend at least 8 million (assuming he’s at least half as good as he was last year as a Brave).

Add in LaRoche’s arbitrated salary next season, which is likely to top 5 million… and that’s no less than 12 million to have kept the both of them next season. Gonzalez might make something around 4 million through arbitration next season, but if you do the math… they certainly freed up money to help with their efforts to retain Smoltz and/or AJ. After this deal, if Liberty Media loosens the purse strings just a little next winter… say… upper 80’s, as opposed to 80 flat, then Atlanta will have a good shot at keeping one or both (Smoltz/AJ).

Gonzalez is our closer of the future. He’s not going anywhere. Period.

By KC

January 18, 2007 09:21 AM | Link to this

ESPN doesn’t know their A*$ from a hole in the wall. Gonzalez isn’t going anywhere.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 18, 2007 09:32 AM | Link to this

Somebody compared the new bullpen to Wetteland, Rivera, and Lloyd. I was thinking Charlton, Myers, and Dibble. This takes so much pressure off the starters shoulders, not only physically but mentally. It also gives JS the more options to replace some of Andruw’s offense with. Instead of looking for just a productive Centerfielder (which would narrow the options significantly) he can look for a highly productive centerfielder OR first basemen to patch up the “hole in the offense” left by Andruw after next season (assuming Thorman doesn’t become Roy Hobbs). Did that scenario make any sense at all, because I think I just confused myself? With that said, I wish LaRoche the best, and I sincerely hope he wins the damn MVP this season.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 18, 2007 09:41 AM | Link to this

Hey Grinch,

I know this is hardly the news topic of the day, but I got to congratulate your Dawgs on their “last-second, thirty-foot three-pointer at the buzzer by a red-headed white guy,” victory over the Hogs lastnight. I only got to see the last play on ESPN bonus coverage, but it looked like a pretty good game. I have to say though, Georgia must be extremely weak in the middle, if they let Steven Hill go for 15 pts and 8 rebounds. That dude is about a stout as a bedsheet.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 18, 2007 09:50 AM | Link to this

KC, lets please be realistic about Andurw. The Braves would have to find at least an extra $5 million next year to sign Andruw. All indications are that Liberty Media is going to keep the payroll where it currently is. Don’t forget that Hudson’s salary will go from $6.5 mil to $13 mil and that all of Hampton’s contract will be the Braves responsibility. The payroll would have to be increased to the upper 80s just to absorb Hudson’s and Hampton’s contracts. Now, both of them could be traded but if Hudson has another mediocre season that will be very hard to do. I actually think Gonzales’ acquisition should prompt a Hudson trade. The Blue Jays would be very interested, as would the Texas Rangers.

I suggested last night that if a younger and cheaper pitcher could not be acquired in a trade for Hudson, then a guy like Ohka or Armas should be signed. Even if its only for one year. That would give Harrison and Lerew time to mature and free up money for Andruw. Otherwise, Andruw is gone. He will at least command the money that Wells received and with Boras as his agent $20 million is an almost certainity. The Angels, Rangers, Dodgers, and Red Sox already have the Brinks truck backed up. I don’t want Andruw to leave but live in reality.

By KC

January 18, 2007 09:53 AM | Link to this

GRINCH: I like this trade, but I don’t think we’ve “fleeced” the competition in any way, shape, fashion, or form. LaRoche is one of the top up and coming 1st-basemen in baseball. If you project his numbers out to 550 AB’s, you’ll find that LaRoche was right there with guys like Delgado statistically. Not bad. Add in his gold-glove caliber defense, and there’s no question that we paid a high price to get Gonzalez.

However, it’s also true that the Pirates paid a dear price for LaRoche. Not only Gonzalez, but a young, speedy stud shortstop as well.

I like this trade. Especially when you take into account that Atlanta will now be able to clear Wickman’s salary next year to make a run at re-signing Smoltz and/or AJ. But I think this trade will ultimately work out well for both teams.

I agree with your assessment of Thorman. I think we can definitely look for 20-plus homers, and solid RBI production. You also bring up a good point about Salty. Wouldn’t be surprised at all to see him start playing a little 1B this season.

By eware

January 18, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

DOB, which players do the Yankees have that we might be interested in? Maybe a second baseman??? Cash? (not that they have any)

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 18, 2007 10:08 AM | Link to this

Stinky,

Would you classify her (Romak’s girfriend) as a grub or a nightcrawler?

By KC

January 18, 2007 10:09 AM | Link to this

Arkansas: Yes, the “Nasty Boys” come to my mind as well when I look at this pen.

Good point about this helping the starters. Smoltz said heading into last season that he planned to cut back his innings pitched in 06’ to be ready for October. Well, he actually pitcher more innings, and they never even played in October… all because of the bullpen.

This year, Smoltz truly should be able to take it a little easier and save his arm a bit for October. And yes, the Braves WILL be playing in October this year. Barring a catastrophic, almost unprecedented, rash of significant injuries… there is almost zero chance that Atlanta will fall short of a playoff berth again this year. Just wanted to clear that up for any Mets fans that might read this.

This really will help the rotation physically and mentally a great deal. One guy in particular this could help is Huddy. With Hampton back in the rotation, and a bullpen capable of turning everything into a 6 inning ball game, I think it takes a lot of pressure off of Tim Hudson, and makes me feel that much better about the odds of a bounce-back season from him.

So Smoltz gets to dial it back, and save a little for later. Hampton doesn’t have to push too hard as he returns, and Hudson should feel far less pressure. Yes, I think this will definitely help the rotation. I really do think the Braves have the best pitching in the NL right now, after this trade. The offense probably won’t be the best in the league again, but it should still be one of the top 3 or 4 offenses in league this season, and with this pitching… that’s plenty.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 18, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this

KC, you are right. I wasn’t thinking. With both Gonzales and Soriano under the Braves control for the next three seasons it will allow them to say goodbye to Wickman after this season. That $6.5 mil can go towards signing Andruw. Some finagling will still have to be done to free up money for Smoltz. But, again, I warn that Hudson and Hampton will cause a significant increase in expenses in 2008.

By ColumbusBuckeye

January 18, 2007 10:44 AM | Link to this

I’m digging this trade quite a bit. I love the idea of a flame throwing bullpen (minus Wick) coming in and shutting down a game. Their is a psychological advantage to having this kind of bullpen. I’d wager that our starters will feed off of this and know that most of the time a lead will be safe, unlike last season. Roachie was a good 1 bagger, but you cannot put a price on good pitching. Pitching wins championships, plain and simple. Braves will win many games this season in this fashion.

By ChrisinPA

January 18, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

I am originally from Williamsport, PA…where Lillibridge broke into professional baseball. Even though he didn’t hit well initially, he was very solid with the glove…you could see he was a legit prospect. In fact, I think that was the best Pirates’ draft class…ever!

I agree with some of you guys…I can’t help but think there is something else in the works. Also…I think Craig Wilson would look great in a Braves’ uniform…platooning with Thorman.

By Lew

January 18, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

KC and Grinch have it right. This is NOT a THIS year trade. We have Soriano and Gonzalez now for three years-CHEAP. Wicky can retire and we’ll save another $6.5 million. All the starters will definitely benefit from this move. With Smoltz’s overuse, Hampton’s return from injury and Hudson’s seeming inability to go 6, this is an extremely important move. We now have as good, if not better pitching staff than anyone. Grinch was also correct about Thorman. I think we lose 10 HR and 15 RBI over LaRoche’s figures. If that much. Reports have Kelly Johnson’s arm doing fine and doing quite well at 2nd (he was a SS after all-they actually switched him to the outfield in 04). We will be fine. I do think there will be more trades (at least for a backup RH hitting 1B). We still have Diaz, Langerhans, Blanco, Escobar and a relief pitcher or two that can be used in trades. Salty may not be inviolate, either. We could still end up with Cabrera. I doubt they’ll look for a 2B. No need for all the doom and gloom. The team is substantially improved from last year. All that offense didn’t do us a damn bit of good because of the pitching. That’s now been dealt with. Besides, we still have Chipper, McCann, Francoeur, and Andruw, who hit between 25-41 HR. There is certainly no lack of power. Edgar hit 16 HR, too. Stinky-That Canadian girlfriend post was the best you’ve ever had. You really need to get off the vendetta train with DOB, though.

By ernesto

January 18, 2007 11:02 AM | Link to this

Bad trade. Too much O gone for a guy who’ll be in maybe every other day. I’m not sure any team can recover from a right-side-of-the-field-echtomy, especially when so much of the offense came from there. Reducing ball games to 6 or 7 innings is great…if you can score more than the other team.

By KC

January 18, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

Robert: Don’t get me wrong… I don’t think the odds are in our favor for re-signing Andruw. BUT, I don’t think he already has one foot out the door either.

“All indications are that Liberty Media is going to keep the payroll where it currently is.”

What indications?? The only indications we’ve been given by Braves officials is an assurance that payroll won’t be slashed. That’s it. Aside from that, there have been no indications that I’m aware of.

That said, I seriously doubt that payroll will change much when Liberty takes over, but they could certainly authorize an extra 5-10 million in 2008, without running the franchise seriously into the red. It would not surprise me in the slightest to see a payroll in the mid or upper 80’s next season.

Now, if that happens… I think the Braves could reasonably make an offer like the deal Carlos Lee got: 6 years-100 mill. That’s a 3.66 mill per season raise over what he’s making now. Andruw has proven that he’s willing to make some sacrifices to stay in Atlanta. I think right now he’s indirectly expressing that he’s not going to “settle” (disgusting, isn’t it? Lol) for the 14 million a season over 4 years. He will certainly get 18 million dollar a year offers over 6 years or longer. But 16.66 over 6 years might be plenty to keep him here. I’m not advocating that the Braves offer him that kind of deal with an 80 million dollar payroll. But with an 88 million dollar payroll, I probably would make that offer… and I think there’s a better than 50/50 chance that he would accept it. You then use the remaining balance to give Smoltz a pay raise, and let him retire in ATL.

As for the increase in Hudson’s salary… that will be canceled out by the departure of Wickman next winter, which will free up 6 million.

Again, 2 things have to happen here… Liberty has to boost payroll just a bit, and then Andruw has to take a little less than top-dollar. I don’t think either of those things are unlikely, but I also can’t say that either of those things are highly likely. So in the end, I would still say that there’s less than a 50/50 chance that AJ will be here next season. I’m just saying that it is still a possibility, that’s all.

By MBATL

January 18, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

I really believe that if the Braves want to resign AJ, they probably can.

Look at the structure of the Vernon Wells contract: Signing bonues of $25 mil, paid in 3 annual installments, $8.5 mil in ‘08 - ‘10.

Then, salary of just half a mil in ‘08, $1.5 mil in ‘09, $12.5 mil in 2010 - and then it jumps to $23 mil in 2011, and $21 mil per year in 2012 - 2014.

A structure similar to this (probably for a few more dollars) for AJ would get us through the remaining years on Edgar, Chipper, Smoltz, and Hampton.

I’m not so sure I want to face that kind of liability to AJ in 3 or 4 years, but, it would be doable and I’m sure Boras could find a way to make it to his liking, long as he could say he got his 7 years/140 mil, or whatever.

By Stinky

January 18, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

Arkansas Hillbilly, I’ll just say that the last time I saw a mouth like hers, it had a hook in it.

By KC

January 18, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

Robert: I made my last post before seeing your 10:41 post. Wasn’t trying to pile on.

Hampton’s salary will remain at 13 million (with Colorado pickin up 2 of his 15 mill per season). That’s a lot of money, but once he shakes off the rust, it will probably look like a bargain in this ridiculous market.

Hudson will also be a bargain if he can revert even to his 04/05 form. If he doesn’t, I don’t think the Braves will have too much trouble unloading him. Not in a market where Vicente Padilla and Ted Lilly are worth 11 million. (Wow, it still shocks me every time I think about it… Lilly and Padilla… 11 million???!!! Holy #^$%^&@# It’s gotta be a sign of the apocalypse!)

By KC

January 18, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

MBATL:

Excellent point. Let’s all remember that the contracts of Hampton and Chipper will both expire after next season… only one year into any new deal they might work out with Andruw. That also plays a role in the Atlanta’s ability to re-sign him.

By Lew

January 18, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

KC-There’s still no guarantee that Liberty Media will get the team. The SEC, The IRS, OR MLB can put a stop to the deal. This deal has taken way too long to get done and I’m not so sure the Feds are going to go along with giving up $90+ million in taxes. Especially with the new House not being down with the Corporate give-aways of the past decade. Who knows-Maybe Terwilliger may end up with the team after all.

By TennesseePaul

January 18, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this

I like this trade. I don’t think we’ll see too much of a loss on the field in power. Our offense could become more efficient next year. Maybe not as powerful, but even more consistant and productive. Having a solid pen to go with our starters is exciting. And, now that we have 3 top short stops on our farm, another trade doesn’t sound to far away. Elvis, Yunel and now Brent. I think we’ve done a good job at stocking the team with young cheap talent which will help regardless of who leaves.

As for the Liberty Media thing… all indications have said no change in payroll. If they do manage to get this deal done and it’s tax free, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them bump payroll up a bit, make the team competitive and maybe even seriously push for a WS ring. The laws on this deal require that they own the team for 2 to 3 years. At that point they are free to flip it to the highest bidder. It would be in their best interest to continue to improve the value of this team so that the eventual flip pays off well. Slashing payroll and producing 3 straight terrible seasons would kill attendance and devalue the team.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 18, 2007 11:34 AM | Link to this

Random thoughts:

I guess JS really wasn’t BS-ing when he said the primary concern for the off-season was pitching and not a lead-off hitter. Give the man a cookie for sticking to his plan.

There’s no reason why we should suffer through another 6-21 month like we did last June (which essentially buried us for the season.) No glaring holes to patch up.

Maybe after two innings of blazing fastballs from Gonzales and Soriano, opposing hitters will be too geared-up to lay off of Wicky’s stuff.

At least LaRoche will have plenty of time in October to spend on deer hunting…..Poor guy.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 18, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this

I really do believe that something bigger is in the works or at least another move. I think Gonzales is a means to an end. Perhaps, that is what he was all along. Without Gonzales this bullpen is still quite tough.

An attempted trade for Baldelli has to be considered as an option. I still think the Angels could come into play here. Perhaps, sending Hudson and Salty/Escobar to the Angels for Santana and Figgins. I read today that the Angels would be willing to trade Santana for the right deal. Casey Kotchman could still be a target. A deal with the Yankees is still a possibility. It seems that fan sentiment is for the Yanks to bring back Bernie Williams, which would mean Cabrera would have to go. I think that would be a silly move for the Yanks, but Williams does deserve to go out with some dignity.

Another team that could be in the mix is the Rockies. They would love to have Hudson and could be willing to give up Hawpe or Taveras along with a guy like Josh Fogg. Fogg is not anything great but could be an innings eater.

The team I say watch out for is the Blue Jays. They need another starter to have any hope of competing in the AL East. If the Jays would be willing to part with Rios and either Marcum or Chacin, it would be a good move for the Braves. It would save some money and they would get a good young and cheap starter. Not to mention Rios would add something special to this team and serve as Andruw’s replacement. I think a rotation of: Hallady, Burnett, Hudson, Marcum or Chacin, and Thomson sounds better to the Jays than a rotation of Hallady, Burnett, Marcum, Chacin, and Thomson. Marcum and Chacin are both very talented and could give the Braves another good young starter to serve as the future foundation of the roation. Seriously, think about it. If such a deal could be made, the Braves would have Davies, James, and Marcum or Chacin to go along with Harrison and possibly Lerew or Cormier to serve as the future rotation of the team.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 18, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

By Stinky

January 18, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

Arkansas Hillbilly, I’ll just say that the last time I saw a mouth like hers, it had a hook in it. :#

HAHAHAHAHA!!! LMAO

By MBATL

January 18, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this

KC, actually, I believe that, in his restructuring, Chipper got a guarantee of $11 mil for ‘07 and ‘08.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 18, 2007 11:50 AM | Link to this

Yeah, I feel bad for LaRoche. When I first read the news yesterday, I was sad. I think LaRoche got a raw deal at times in Atlanta and he proved how good he really was once he got his shot to play everyday. Going to Pittsburgh has got to suck. Truth is the Pirates look like a really good team on paper. But, you just know they will find a way to screw it up. I do believe that LaRoche will have a .280/35HR/110RBI season though. I really do.

By KC

January 18, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

LEW: You are correct. The deal ain’t done until it’s done. However, everything that’s been reported suggests that this deal isn’t in doubt in any way.

TennPaul: I agree that Liberty’s (assuming the deal goes through) priority is simply going to be protecting the re-sale value of the team for 2 or 3 years. I don’t know that winning a WS would affect the value of this franchise very much. As long as they resume their winning ways of the past 14 seasons (prior to 06’), this franchise should continue to appreciate at a pretty nice clip. So I don’t know that Liberty will be overly motivated to try and win it all, as a individual owner would be, but it’s still not hard to imagine them boosting payroll a bit given the escalating market.

By KC

January 18, 2007 11:57 AM | Link to this

MBATL: Yes… his contract expires after next season (not this season).

By Lew

January 18, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

KC-I don’t know what reports you have been reading, but the outcome is not set in stone. There are serious issues about who should control the team-MLB wants a baseball person and The IRS wants a financial guy. McGuirk may not be a permanent solution. You have also had a change in the Congress. The new congress people are out to delete as many Corporate give aways as possible. I just don’t see them giving up $90+ million in taxes (20% of $450 mil) when we are running budget deficits like we are. If this deal were going to get done, it shouldn’t have taken this long. It is by no means a done deal.

By TennesseePaul

January 18, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

KC: A WS ring doesn’t mean shelling out 200 mill as the Yankees can testify. Just a modest increase is needed as the Cards can testify. I wouldn’t put it out of reach from any future owner as long as they manage to keep payroll in line with MLB inflation rates for labor.

Though, having this cap on the payroll has forced us to get young and that’s not bad if done properly, which I think we are doing.

By flbravesgirl

January 18, 2007 12:35 PM | Link to this

While the prospect of not needing antacids and blood pressure meds every time the bullpen door opens is very appealing and Lillibridge sounds promising too, I hate to see LaRoche go. Hate to give up the home-grown guys. Hope he does well in Pittsburgh.

I’m not really worried about the offense. It’s the defense that concerns me. We’ve barely seen Thorman at 1st and KJ is just learning 2nd. Lew, you’ve heard good things about Kelly’s progress?

By David O'Brien

January 18, 2007 12:42 PM | Link to this

OK, where were we before so rudely interrupted by this trade and Michael Vick’s Excellent Adventure….

Oh, yeah _ new blog. Will be up shortly. Have spent the morning trying to reach LaRoche and Gonzalez (both had morning flights, but getting physicals today), doing a few radio interviews, and calling some scouts with other teams to see if they hear any word on whether this could be precursor to another deal. All indications are that it’s not.

But I’ll address this stuff in a new blog. Gimme a few minutes.

By KC

January 18, 2007 12:43 PM | Link to this

TennPaul:

Yes, I agree. I don’t think it necessarily takes a fortune to win a WS as long as you have young inexpensive talent, which we have.

I was just saying that I don’t know if any corporate owner is going to be driven to win a World Series, unless there’s profit in it. I’m not sure if winning the WS would affect the value of this franchise. That’s all I’m saying. But again, not hard to imagine any new owner increasing payroll a bit.

I think the only reason it wasn’t raised from 80 mill this year is because the team is owned by a still somewhat struggling corporation who plans to sell the team ASAP. In anyone *else’s hands, I suspect the payroll is likely to increase *a bit.

By Ring, Ring

January 18, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

October 2007:

(phone rings)

Chipper: Uhhh, Hello?

Adam: Uhhh, Yeah I’d like a large thick-crust Canadian Bacon.

Chipper: Uhh, What?

Adam: Oh Sorry. Who is this?

Chipper: This is, uhh Chipper.

Adam: Oh yeah, Hey Chipper, ya’ wanna go huntin’ tomorrow?

Chipper: Uhhh, Roachy, I can’t go. I’ve got game five in the Bronx tomorrow.

Adam: Oh ok, well, uhhh, Can I hunt your stand then?

Chipper: Uhhh, I guess. What’s wrong with your stand?

Adam: Uhhhhhh

Chipper: Uhhh, just one thing. You have to give some of the deer meat to Wicky.

Adam: Huh?

Chipper: Uhh, yeah, I bet Wicky a breakfast that he couldn’t knock Bobby’s, uhh, hat off his head with a chaw before I could. Dude nailed it first try, so I owe him a breakfast. Uhhh, He wants two backstraps, four packages of ground, and a whole deer ham still on the bone.

Adam: Huh?

Chipper: Uhhh, later….

Adam: …Uhhh, could I change that to a thin crust with an order of pita bread?

(Click)

By Jman

January 18, 2007 01:05 PM | Link to this

Still think we could have done better by getting Chone Figgins, and a decent reliever from the Angels. At least that fills 3 needs. Leadoff/2B/middle relief

By journalist stinky smith/bobby cox

January 18, 2007 01:35 PM | Link to this

El Burro from el dugout—“Come on “Lilly”—shake the dew off of it Lilly—shake the dew off Lilly!”

By dcarp23

January 18, 2007 01:54 PM | Link to this

DOB-Just got done hearing you on Steiner’s show. Nicely done, sir.

I do want to raise a point, though, on the potential defensive deficiencies on the right side of the infield. While there is no real argument against LaRoche being one of the great glove men in the game, the statistics don’t seem to indicate that Giles was all that effective, at least last season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/fielding?groupId=9&season=2006&seasonType=2&split=80&sortColumn=zoneRating

Amongst regulars, he ranked next to last in the big league in zone rating (The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive “zone,”) and in the bottom half of second basement in range factor ((PO + A) divided by innings), which while a tad subjective, seem to be reliable indicators of an infielders prowess.

Obviously, replacing a second baseman with a guy who has never played there is a tad risky, but it’s not like Ryne Sandberg is the one being replaced.

By DonCoburleone

January 18, 2007 02:33 PM | Link to this

People! We are not keeping Andruw past this season! It will not happen, mark my words! There is not enough money in the budget to cover a new (and more expensive) Andruw contract plus Hudson’s raise in ‘08, plus Smoltz’s raise in ‘08 (probably from 8mil this year to 11-13 mil in ‘08), plus I believe ‘08 will be McCann and Francoeur’s first year of arbitration (they will get at least $3-$5 mil. raises), plus the raises for Soriano and Gonzo through arbitration… So we AINT KEEPING ANDRUW! Andruw will make $14 mil next season, so, take away that $14 mil and it ALL goes to the players I just mentioned (Hudson = +$7.5mil; Smoltz = +$3mil; McCann & Francoeur = +$6mil combined; Soriano & Gonzo = + $2mil combined) That’s a loss of $14mil from AJ’s contract expiring, but then there is an immediate gain of $18.5mil due to other salary increases… And I’m not trying to be a downer, I love Andruw Jones and I think he is one of the top 5 all around talents in the game, but with this current budget, the Braves simply can’t afford him…

By David O'Brien

January 18, 2007 03:06 PM | Link to this

New blog posted, ladies and gents.

Bill Murray as John Winger in Stripes: “Lindsay Lohan and Mike Vick _ I wanna party with you guys….”

By Gilligan

January 18, 2007 09:17 PM | Link to this

Yeah, Wrigley is great. Obstructions, climbing over 20 people to pee only to find yourself at a disgusting trough with quite possibly the rudest fans in baseball. The field is beautiful, no doubt, but the discomforts a fan has to endure to see a game there take it well out of the top ten.

That said, I hope they NEVER tear it down. A loser stadium for a loser team. 2 more seaons until 100 years in a row without a World Series title - c’mon CUBS - I know you can do it!!!