Braves

By Scott

January 8, 2007 04:16 PM | Link to this

How do you not have Pearl Jam in your top bands list?

By NYM

January 8, 2007 04:19 PM | Link to this

I know you said no particular order but U2 has to top that list.

By Scott

January 8, 2007 04:19 PM | Link to this

How do you not have Pearl Jam on your top band’s list?

By Matthew

January 8, 2007 04:24 PM | Link to this

DOB:

Good ATL Braves list. I would put Smoltz a little higher, due to his longevity and willingness to do whatever the team needed and do it successfully. Going from dominant starter to lights out closer and back to dominating starter on the back end of his career merits top five consideration for me. I was only a baby when Murph played for the Braves and I have heard a lot of great things about him. I’m sure the other Braves (before 1989, when I started watching them)were great. But no one, not even Maddux or Glavine, gave me goosbumps when he was on the mound like Smoltz.

My Top Five Braves (since 1989):

1. Smoltz
2. Chipper
3. Maddux
4. Glavine
5. Andruw

I know its not a top anything list without the Hammer and Niekro especially, but I never saw them play, so I can’t give an objective opinion. I do hope Hank’s record isn’t broken by Barroid, and I love a great knuckleball so Niekro would’ve been a favorite had I seen him. Speaking of that, are there any knuckleballers in the game today? The only ones I know of are Wakefield and Chad Bradford.

By Andrew

January 8, 2007 04:31 PM | Link to this

Dave, Dave, Dave,

Don’t Stop Believin…

Don’t EVER Stop Believin…

By C.J.

January 8, 2007 04:32 PM | Link to this

none of those bands on that list deserve to be there except REM and maybe Pixies. and Pearl Jam sucks.

and Smoltz should definitely be higher than 8. at least top 3.

By Jim

January 8, 2007 04:33 PM | Link to this

I agree with the 10 names, but would change the order. Dale Murphy is a great individual, but as a ballplayer, he has to rank # 8 on this list behind Andruw and Smoltz.

If you include all Braves since WWII, you’d have Spahn at #2 and Matthews just behind Chipper with some thought of including Lew Burdett.

By summerteeth

January 8, 2007 04:35 PM | Link to this

I can’t argue with your Braves top 10 list…consider mine the same except I might substitute Bob Horner for Javy Lopez.

Bands in no particular order

Steely Dan Wilco The Cult Midnight Oil Alice in Chains The Beastie Boys Hootie & The Blowfish (yes, Hootie) Morphine REM Guns ‘n Roses Hobex (look ‘em up)

By Jon

January 8, 2007 04:36 PM | Link to this

Good post, Matthew. Smoltz has to be higher than #8 and is in many ways the MVP of the Braves since 1991. Nobody has more post-season wins or regular season saves. Plus, I can’t remember him having a “bad” season in the last 17 years, which is more than I can say for Chipper, Andrew, and Murph.

By brian

January 8, 2007 04:36 PM | Link to this

Top plays for the Braves: 1. Francisco Cabrera/Sib Bream 2. David Justice’s solo shot Game 6 3. Fred McGriff - burning down the house night

Important Plays on the down side: 1. Lonnie Smith baserunning 2. Charlie Liebrandt to Kirby Puckett 3. Jim Leryitz

Most important player signing past 25 years: Greg Maddux

Worst Trade Len Barker

Best trade: 1. Alexander for Smoltz 2. Fred McGriff

Biggest flameout Steve Avery (how can you go from so dominating to out of the league?)

Most important move past 25 years: Cox going from GM to manager and hiring JS to be GM (the biggest no duh)

By Mike from the coast

January 8, 2007 04:37 PM | Link to this

On your bands list I would have added Dire Straits (sp?).

By Vince

January 8, 2007 04:38 PM | Link to this

Just had to make a comment re: your last blog on McGwire, Bonds, etc. Thank you for pointing out what no one else is…that McGwire’s qualifications for the HOF are very debatable regardless of whether he did steroids. Other than his 583 career homers, what else stands out? Lifetime batting average? .263 Lifetime hit total? 1626 Scored over 100 runs just three times. Drove in 100 runs or more seven times which is pretty good if you look at baseball since 1900, but unremarkable in the era in which he played. His aggregate postseason batting average is .217 He struck out nearly 1600 times in his career. He only averaged 22 doubles per 162 games. If we assume he began taking steroids in the mid ‘90s, then before that he was merely an upgraded Rob Deer, and after that, a stat monster for a handful of seasons, culminating in the numbers he put up in 1998 and 1999.

It would be nice if more people looked at the numbers he put up on their own and talked about those, rather than assuming they’re good enough and the only question regarding his HOF election is the steroid question. A very one dimensional player indeed.

Also agree with the Bonds and Rose comments. They belong in the HOF, but that’s about it.

By C'mon dude

January 8, 2007 04:41 PM | Link to this

Chili Peppers got to be there and in the top three. As it is not on your list at all, making it invalid.

Also, Maddux must be ranked below Smoltz and, probably, Glavine. But most definitely below Neikro. Knucksie was about all we had during many seasons.

Nice try, but you are the weakest link and you’re fired, voted off the island, etc.

By Joe Fan

January 8, 2007 04:42 PM | Link to this

Anyone who says that Wilco does not deserve to be on that list has never heard any of their music. Amazing!

By Frazier

January 8, 2007 04:44 PM | Link to this

Even though all their song’s don’t exactly “ROCK OUT”, I’d have to say the Dave Matthews Band should be on that list. Their live stuff is great!

By AdirondackDave

January 8, 2007 04:45 PM | Link to this

The only contested slots on the baseball list are 2-10. Hank is the all-time Crown Jewel of this franchise, reglardless whether they called Boston, Atlanta, Milwaukee or Peoria their home.

By Bobby Cox

January 8, 2007 04:48 PM | Link to this

Top Ten Braves: 1)Chris Reitsma 2)Marvin Freeman 3)Lonnie Smith 4)Andres Thomas 5)Brian Hunter 6)Charlie Leibrant 7)Oil Can Boyd 8)Terrell Wade 9)Mike Heath 10)Keith Mitchell

By DumbAss

January 8, 2007 04:49 PM | Link to this

Hammerin’ Hank was a country band wasn’t it??

By dougp

January 8, 2007 04:49 PM | Link to this

Aren’t U2, The Replacements and REM all been playing for more than 25 years?

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 04:52 PM | Link to this

you folks already have me reconsidering, and the easy thing for me to do would be to move Smoltz up higher (especially since he’s still here and will probably see this). i have no disagreement whatsoever with ranking him in the top five. it’s that close, to me, after Hank.

And Andruw, if he has another year like he’s had the past couple, will certainly move past Murph on my list. Hard to differentiate between Glav, Andruw, Smoltz … and to compare to Niekro, who as a knuckleballer for some awful teams, has some very unusual stats. i mean, look at the starts, innnings, and ERAs. if the braves had been good in some of those years, he’d have 30 more career wins, easily.

summerteeth, I like your list (most of it). almost put Beasties and Alice in Chains on mine, but figured I can’t leave off P.E. and include Beasties. Not that my logic amounts to anything. Like I said, entirely subjective here.

Brian, i like that, taking it a step or two further and ranking all that other stuff.

Vince, can’t believe how much people avoid the fact that McGwire’s ridiculous power in four late-career seasons are really his ONLY argument for the Hall, other than his standout rookie season.

Yes, one dimension might be enough to get a guy in, but not when that one dimension was so obviously boosted by … well, i know folks are probably already tired of that debate. i am.

By craig Miller

January 8, 2007 04:52 PM | Link to this

To me Pendleton has to be on there, despite his short tenure. Justice wasn’t with us much longer than T.P. Plus Pendleton was MVP of the N.L. and the team in ‘91, and the heart and soul of the all the early 90’s teams. Javy Lopez, as good as he was, should go. He was a very very very good player, but never quite great. Unlike T.P., Andruw, Chipper, and Murphy, Javy never was a top 2 choice for league MVP.

By Carolina Lady

January 8, 2007 04:56 PM | Link to this

KC, from the previous blog: “The Hall of Fame is an honor given to those who have brought honor and greatness to the game. Any player who has cheated to get where they are (and I don’t give damn how much of what they accomplished can or cannot be reasonably attributed to steroids), stealing from other players in the process… then they do NOT deserve to be honored by Major League Baseball.”

I am in complete agreement with you.

By AdirondackDave

January 8, 2007 04:59 PM | Link to this

I would add that, although Hank is the Crown Jewel of the franchise, if Andruw, Chipper, and Smoltz were to (somehow) all finish their careers with the Braves they would be 2-3-4 in my book. Andruw is going to finish with 600+ homers and incomparable defense… Sure wish he could get that B.A. up about 10-15 points (which at 30 he can still do).

By The Piece

January 8, 2007 05:03 PM | Link to this

I like this list, but I don’t think Javy Lopez should be on this list. While he was a good offensive catcher, his best season came after 4 straight years of considerable offensive decline. I remember reading that he had lost some 30 pounds over the winter before that season. Was he juicing? DOB: Any response here? Has there ever been any speculation about his RIDICULOUS breakout (.328, 43 homers, 109 RBIs only one year after hitting .233)? He’s really not been the same player since that season and the one after it (in which his power numbers went down considerably 23 HR), and since testing came into the game. Not sure who I would put in his place, maybe Kevin Millwood or something.

The trouble with limiting yourself to someone who has been with the team for a very long time is that there are VERY FEW people who stayed with the team for a very long time. You almost end up being FORCED to include Javy Lopez because no one else was with the Braves for so long.

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 05:05 PM | Link to this

dougp, while U2 had some limited-release singles and EPs in 1979, and Boy and October came out in 1980 and 1981, they really got big, world-wide huge, beginning with War in 1983, followed by The Unforgettable Fire in 1984, and took it to another level still with Joshua Tree in 1987.

I know, it’s subjective and hard to draw a line, but I just felt like they belonged in that since-1982 category because, like I said, they really got huge at that point.

REM’s Chronic Town EP came out in 1982, and Murmur, their breakthrough first album, came out in 1983.

Replacements released Sorry Ma, Forgot to Take out the Trash in 1981, but Stink was 1982, Hootenanny was 1983 and their college-radio breakthrough Let It Be album was 1984.

By JC FROM UT

January 8, 2007 05:11 PM | Link to this

TOP TEN BRAVES: 1 Aaron 2/3 Smoltz/Maddux 4Chipper 5/6Andruw/Murphy 7 Glavine 8Justice 9Niekro (only because team didn’t win anything) 10 Ralph Garr

By RC

January 8, 2007 05:12 PM | Link to this

I agree with many of the comments about the list, but I can’t believe people are wanting to move Maddux down from 2nd. He won 4 consecutive Cy Young awards from 92-95, the 94 and 95 awards being unanimous votes. He won a Gold Glove every season with the Braves except for one (and has won 16 in the past 17 years). His adjusted ERA’s from the 94 and 95 seasons are #4 and 5 on the all-time single season list. There is no way he should be anywhere lower than 2nd on this list, and since so much of Hank’s career was in Milwakuee you could make a case for Mad Dog being #1.

By VaBravesfan

January 8, 2007 05:13 PM | Link to this

I saw Journey in Pennsylvania this summer. I realize there was no Steve Perry, but, my gosh, they were pathetic. Good call on that one, DOB.

By AdirondackDave

January 8, 2007 05:13 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB - I was kind of surprised at your comment implying that Smoltzie might be reading this blog which raises this question. During the course of the year, do you think other players or off-field personel read these blogs? Inquiring minds want to know…

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 05:14 PM | Link to this

The Piece, there’s obviously been plenty of speculation and suspicion about Javy’s monster season in 2003, but I have no evidence and can’t accuse the man or hold it against him just because he was incredibly cut and quickly declined in production after that free-agent walk year. You can only make your own judgments.

You’re right about one thing _ it’s hard to put him on the list. He was the ONLY one I had trouble with, but who do you put ahead of him. Maybe Furcal, but other than that, you pointed out that others just weren’t with the team long enough to warrant being ahead of him.

Javy did have some other very good offensive seasons, and was the second-best offensive catcher in the league from 1995-2000, when he hit .282 or higher six years in a row, with 23 or more homers four times, including 34 HRs and 106 RBIs in 1998.

By RC

January 8, 2007 05:17 PM | Link to this

I also agree with everyone who wants Smoltz higher on the list, if for no other reason than he has been been one of the best postseason pitchers ever, and still has one more postseason win than Andy Petitte, who sandbaged his way to a bunch of wins with the Yankees while giving up +4 runs a game. 15 wins, 4 saves, a 2.65 ERA, and 194 K’s in 207 innings is enough for Smoltz to break anyone’s top 5.

By flange1

January 8, 2007 05:19 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Great idea for a blog! I think your Braves list is great. I am not sold on Javy, I wonder if he should be replaced with Bob Horner?

In terms of bands, if you put Wilco/Uncle Tupelo on the list I think Son Volt should also be included. I like Jay better myself than Jeff, but both are great..

My top 10 bands would be (in no order) REM, U2, Son Volt, Replacements, Ramones, Radiohead, Oasis, Nirvana, Blue Rodeo and The Pretenders…..Pretty old school huh?

By woogidy

January 8, 2007 05:20 PM | Link to this

DOB, totally off the subject of greatest bands of all time, but have you ever heard of a band called 10 Years? They have a stellar album called “The Autumn Effect”. I like Smoltz a little higher on that list myself. I hope in 10 years or so a couple of guys named McCann and Francouer will be on that list.

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 05:24 PM | Link to this

Craig Miller, David Justice was a Braves for six full seasons (1990-95) and parts of two others. He hit more than 20 homers in five of those six seasons (19 homers in the other), including his 40-homers, 120-RBI season in 1993, and had some big postseason moments.

Terry Pendleton is one of my favorite guys I’ve covered, and a damn good players, but he was a Brave for only four seasons (1991-94), healthy for only the first three full seasons in that period, then returned for 42 games with Atlanta at the end of 1996 after a stint with the Marlins.

You could defintely make a case that he belongs instead of Javy, especially given T.P.’s role on the worst-to-first Braves and his MVP award. But again, he only had three full, healthy seasons with Atlanta

By aj

January 8, 2007 05:28 PM | Link to this

i think you’re reachin’ on some of your bands…i see some of them being on there, BUT how the hell do you not have dave matthews? black crows? and if no “cheezy” bands like bon jovi, then how did GNR make it? not knocking ya bro…just gotta put my 2 cents in!

By rivers

January 8, 2007 05:30 PM | Link to this

braves in no particular order 1)bob horner 2)rafael ramierez 3)claudell washington 4)gerald perry 5)zane smith 6)brad komisk 7)craig mcmurtry 8)bruce benedict 9)pascual perez 10)gene garber How’s that for a list?

Rock Bands widespread panic rem phish pearl jam metallica alice n chains u2 string cheese guns roses Outkast

By John Smoltz

January 8, 2007 05:35 PM | Link to this

I most definitely read this blog. Keep up the good work DOB.

I occasionally post here under the pseudonym “journalist jimmy smith” - so watch for my humorous comments.

And my favorite band is Metallica.

By The Grinch

January 8, 2007 05:42 PM | Link to this

I’m surprised at those who feel Smoltz and Glavine were better pitchers than Maddux. We’re talking about while in a Braves uniform, right? Maddux put together some of the greatest seasons ever while he was here, including three of his four Cy Young’s. A 1.63 ERA. Hello? Smoltz is getting close as he continues to be effective, but still a ways to go. Glavine, my personal feelings notwithstanding, is about two rungs behind Smoltz and three behind Maddux on the ladder. I also agree with whoever suggested Bob Horner over Javy. Now, music…

Journey’s been big since the mid-70’s so anyone’s opinion of them as related to this discussion is moot. Almost every one of my favorite bands is from prior to ‘82, but here go 10 since then in no particular order: Alice in Chains, Soundgarden, Audioslave, Slayer, Rammstein, Godsmack, Sepultura, Exodus, Obituary, Venom. Maiden started 2 years too early to make the list, and early Metallica and Megadeth would be on there but they blew chunks longer than they were great. BTW, what happened to all the posts on the last blog after about 11:30 this morning?

By The Grinch

January 8, 2007 05:45 PM | Link to this

Keep in mind, if we were talking greatest rock bands “ever” instead of the last 25 years, my list would look very different.

By journalist jimmy smith

January 8, 2007 05:47 PM | Link to this

roadrunner ralph garr - not javy. ralph garr was the real deal. and, carolina lady, go to the corner for time out.

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 05:48 PM | Link to this

Flange1, great band list. Pretenders would make my list, but they were already big in 1982 _ Pretenders (debut album) came out in 1980 and Pretenders II (still my favorite) in 1981.

AJ, it’s just my opinion, not based on albums sold or number of 30-and-under folks who currently love them, etc. And since I’m not much of a Dave Matthews Band fan, they’re not on my list. I mean, Pearl Jam is a far greater band than DMB, but Pearl Jam’s not in my top 10, either. I can certainly see where they’d be in plenty of other folks’ top 10s, however.

You’re probably never even listened to the Replacements, for instance. They blow DMB’s doors off, my friend. So does Nirvana, and Pixies. And Smiths were absolutely huge when I was in college in the early-mid 1980s, with a totally unique sound that influenced a generation of bands.

As for cheese bands, hey, Axel may have gone off the deep end and became a caricature, but that band absolutely rocked righteously while they were all grounded on earth, or hovering only slightly above the surface of our planet. You comparing G’nR to Bon Jovi? Really? Please. That’s absurd.

By brian

January 8, 2007 05:48 PM | Link to this

Dave, I would have to have Fugazi and Guided by Voices in my top 10 bands of the last 25 years but I’m in agreement with most of your Top 10 except The Waterboys, The Pogues and Guns & Roses. Love Appetite for Destruction but everything else they put out was pretty average.

Bob Horner would make my top 10 Braves. I would leave Javy off.

By StingerSplash

January 8, 2007 05:49 PM | Link to this

What? No Willie Montanez or Pepe Frias? The shame of it all. At least you didn’t have The Cure among the bands (I hate them almost as much as I hate the Mets), and I wholeheartedly concur with Nirvana, JA and The Replacements. Too bad you couldn’t have fudged to have included U2, and I suppose a few more discs from Kings of Leon or My Morning Jacket are necessary for inclusion?

By DAP

January 8, 2007 05:52 PM | Link to this

C.J.

you obvioulsy know nothing about music if you are going to say pearl jam sucks. to me thats different than saying you dont care for them or whatever, but they anything but suck, and youre ignorant.

i feel like im too young to debate to much on the music stuff, but that point i can.

i also feel a little young to debate the braves list, but i will alittle anyways.

i would adjust the rankings to put smoltz higher, and im not sold on javy being in there. id go with T.P. over him.

DOB how long do they have to be braves to get considered? …what are we going to do with the list when we have to make room for Frenchy and McCann? (and we WILL have to make room)

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 05:53 PM | Link to this

Grinch, I can definitely see argument of Horner instead of Javy. And Soundgarder is definitely another of my, say, top 15-20 of the past 25 years. Incredible band.

Some of your other choices _ Rammstein, Obituary, Venom _ frighten me, dude. But rock on, brother.

Oh, and they were having all kinds of blog woes, not just here but on all the blogs. Posts getting chewed up, garble appearing in words, etc. No real explanation.

By StingerSplash

January 8, 2007 05:53 PM | Link to this

Ralph Garr is an oversight, and so may be Claudell Washington. I miss Firehose and The Minutemen, and I’m glad someone evoked the memory of Morphine. And for whoever was casting doubt upon GNR, Appetite for Destruction may be the greatest debut album of all time.

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 05:59 PM | Link to this

I just thought of something to put the ridiculous 50-whatever day stretch off that Ohio State’s had since it’s last game. Think of it like this: If the Buckeyes played their last game the day before pitchers and catcher reported for spring training, they wouldn’t play the BCS title game until AFTER opening day. The entire spring training, from pitchers and catchers report date to opening day, is shorter than the idle time Ohio State’s football team has had. That’s just inexplicably stupid.

Oh, and how ‘bout that GMAC bowl last night? I was flipping through channels and came upon that thing and thought, ‘These poor dudes _ this is the most unwatched, nobody-cares bowl game in the world….”

Stinger, I did include U2, and explained why a few posts above. Yeah, I just need a few more discs from Drive-By Trucker, My Morning Jacket, Kings of Leon and others to supplant some of the bands on my list. It is a quarter-century period, after all. Those three bands been big for 10 years or less, pretty much.

By rasta raj rahley

January 8, 2007 06:00 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB (much like DOOB, no?)

Let’s weed out those extraneous lists and get to my smokin’ top ten:

super gold thai, sensi star, warlock, jamaican +, grizzly, silver haze, el guapo special, nyc diesel, purple skunk, and b-52.

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 06:01 PM | Link to this

Stinger _ MINUTEMEN, now you’re talking, man. Double Nickels on the Dime. Tremendous album.

And Morphine _ god, they had a run of about 4-5 albums that just sounded so much better than anything going at the time, so original. Wish they were still around.

By Rosalynn

January 8, 2007 06:03 PM | Link to this

I asked Jimma who his favahrit Braves ah and heah’s what Jimma had to say. Jimma likes Hammahin’ Hank and Andruw Jones. Jimma was not so high on those Republican pitchas - even though one of those boys is a union leadah! Jimma agrees with the esteemed Journalist, Jimma Smith, that Ralph Gahh has to be included somewheah on this list. Ralph Gaah was the fastest Braves playuh playin’ and led the NL in hitting in 1974 - he was a puah hitta and a threat to go all the way (wait a minute, wrong spoaht). Ralph did some nice commehcials on telvision, too. Ralph Gaah could still play if Bobba would put him in the lineup. Of couhse Bobba would platoon Ralph in left field and make him wait for the three run homah when he got on base. Oh, I am getting off subject … Jimma also likes Adam LaRoche vera much and if Adam makes it a couple moah seasons, jimma says Adam will make everyone fohget Ryan Klesko at fihst base. Jimma just go back from New Yoahk and I think he had a little gas when he got on the plane.

By rasta raj rahley

January 8, 2007 06:05 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB (much like DOOB, no?)

Let’s weed out those extraneous lists and get to my smokin’ top ten:

super gold thai, sensi star, warlock, jamaican +, grizzly, silver haze, el guapo special, nyc diesel, purple skunk, and b-52.

By Bryan from Kansas (Go KU)

January 8, 2007 06:07 PM | Link to this

To Bobby Cox who posted at 4:48 pm you forgot Rufino Linares, Brad Komminsk, Greg Myers, Terry Harper, Micah Bowie, George Lombard, & dont forget Joe Boever…

Sorry to continue with that David, but that post was too funny.

I think you are pretty well on with you Braves picks I would question Chipper in front of Murph only because of what he meant to his team all those years when it was just him carrying a losing team.

I am not a really big rock music fan so I will just have to take your word on that one.

By The Grinch

January 8, 2007 06:14 PM | Link to this

There was a bowl game last night? Man, I’m a football fanatic and I didn’t even know that (I did watch both pro games). Yeah, layoffs this long really hurt the ability to judge who ought to be national champion; it’s like, which team was able to drink less beer in the last two months? Stupid, stupid.

Thanks, Jimmy Smith, for pointing that out earlier: CL, do you talk to your mother with that mouth? :-)

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 06:14 PM | Link to this

Bryan from Kansas, you’re right, it was a funny post….

Rock Chalk.

as for Murph, he’ll move down my list two more notches, probably, after another strong season by Andruw and Smoltz.

By MBATL

January 8, 2007 06:16 PM | Link to this

Steve Avery probably deserves some consideration. Only 3 really good years out of about 7 in ATL (god, what a phenom he was when he debuted in ‘90), but he went 45-25 when the Braves were developing into a power; and a 6-4, .290 era in 18 post-season games. He doesn’t unseat Aaron or Maddux, but maybe Lopez.

Some housekeeping left over from the last blog:

Bruce, I don’t know just why I jumped you on the Reitsma video; apologies, man; I was out of line.

Ron, point taken, about Soriano possibly being the closer of the future (though he’s never actually BEEN a closer, he probably could be). I am very suspect of his durability. He had TJ surgery - was back in the bigs 13 months later, which is about right - but he did go on the DL in July/Aug ‘06 with a ‘dead arm’. Came back strong until the beaning (and you can’t blame him for that one). I like the trade for Soriano, but you can never have enough young, proven pitching. And Gonzalez is a true closer - but again, I’d want more than just Gonzo for Laroche.

Anyway, sorry to get off-topic.

By Daybed Wagmoe

January 8, 2007 06:17 PM | Link to this

DOB - you have ELEVEN bands on your top 10 list. it looks like you need to nix someone.

this is tougher than i thought. i’m working on my lists…

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 06:18 PM | Link to this

rasta: yeah, mon.

And by the way, Bob Marley and the Wailers would be on my list of all-time bands, any genre, any period. I particularly love Exodus and Rastaman Vibration.

(by the way, staring down at me at this moment, over my desk, pinned to the ceiling of the basement blog headquarters, is a biack-and-white poster of Bob smoking. I kid you not).

By TennesseePaul

January 8, 2007 06:18 PM | Link to this

DOB: Interesting topic. I’d have to leave U2 out of it, because, even though they got big in the last 25 years, they did release prior to, and therefore would not fit the criteria as defined by the R&R Hall Of Fame. Nothing against them, but there are a lot of bands that released prior to 1982 that still got big after 1982. And since Bon Jovi is excluded despite having sold a ton (such a loss…) some in my list aren’t exceedingly popular in the sales column, but I think just as influential/important/good.

Bands
Pixies, Nirvana, Radiohead, Rage Against the Machine, Death Cab, Pearl Jam, GnR, Beck, Smashing Pumpkins, REM.
There should be more in there. I love REM’s early stuff. I love all the music I have. So much so I put it all on a hard drive and attached to the car sterio so I have everything with me where ever I go. So it’s hard to say.

Last 25 years of the Braves is a tough one. Most of the guys are still on the team making it hard to fill out a list.
Braves
Smoltz, Chipper, Andruw, Maddux, Glavine, Murphy, Lopez, Justice, Pendelton, McCann.
Pretty much just included the MVPs of the Braves in the last 25 years. McCann hasn’t been around long, but he was amazing last season. Lets hope he can keep it up. But there is no order to that list. And I’d suspect I’d agree with most everyone else’s list as well.

GO BRAVES

By The Grinch

January 8, 2007 06:19 PM | Link to this

Brian and Bobby, don’t forget Nick Esasky. Alfred Hitchcock made a movie about him with Jimmy Stewart and Kim Novak; look it up. :-)

By Scott

January 8, 2007 06:19 PM | Link to this

CJ,

If you think Pearl Jam sucks then you are a flat out IDIOT. You can not like a band, they can just not be your cup of tea or whatever. But to say they suck, makes you look very stupid when it comes to music.

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 06:21 PM | Link to this

Rosalynn’s comment about “Republican pitchas” _ classic. Rosalynn posts should eventually gathered and made into a book. They are the best.

By Scott

January 8, 2007 06:21 PM | Link to this

Top Atlanta players.

1.Hank Aaron 2.Greg Maddux 3.Chipper Jones 4.John Smoltz 5.Tom Glavine 6.Andruw Jones 7.Dale Murphy 8.Phil Niekro 9.Javy Lopez 10.Dave Justice

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 06:23 PM | Link to this

TennPaul _ Smashing Pumpkins. Damn, gotta admit I forgot about them. Wouldn’t have had them in my top 10, but pretty damn close. Great band. I even liked that album that Corgan did as short-lived band Zwan.

And of course he had a big hand in the making of Courtney Love’s great early Hole album.

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 06:28 PM | Link to this

Daybed, you’re right. Another example of my famous math skills. Once I get to double-digits, I lose track.

OK, because an argument can be made that U2 was already big before 1982 (Boy and October were great albums), I’ll drop U2. Obviously they’d be in my top 10 otherwise, but this is a convenient way to nix them.

So the list has been altered, which should thoroughly confuse anyone just arriving and going over the posts and reading all the stuff said earlier about U2…oh, well.

By I am the decider

January 8, 2007 06:28 PM | Link to this

The only problem I have with Aaron being at the top of an Atlanta Braves list are the 12 years played in Mil. I prefer a Braves list, which would also include Spahn and Mathews and others. That being said here is my top ten list:

1) Phil Niekro

2) Chipper Jones

3) Hank Aaron

4) Tom Glavine

5) Greg Maddux

6) John Smoltz

7) Dale Murphy

8) Andruw Jones

9) Dave Justice and

10) RALPH GARR!!

About the bands, hell I can’t think of ten bands from the last 25 years but I would have to go with Nirvana, Pearl Jam, U2, radiohead and REM in no particular order After that it doesn’t matter. Rock is Dead.. Someone mention Steely Dan? I think they released one album in the last 25 years..

By Allen

January 8, 2007 06:30 PM | Link to this

Although they had only two true records, The Stone Roses have to be on any top 10 list. I know Second Coming is a flawed effort, but their self-titled debut is widely conidered the best album to come out of the UK in the last 25 years. If you haven’t heard it, you must.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 8, 2007 06:31 PM | Link to this

DOB, I won’t argue with your list of bands because you did say it was more or less limited to rock. Definitley love Metallica and Guns-N-Roses.

Now, as for your top 10 Braves. I agree with everyone but here would be my list: 1. Hank Aaron

1. John Smoltz

2. Chipper Jones

3. Andruw Jones

4. Dale Murphy

5. Greg Maddux

6. Tom Glavine

7. Phil Niekro

8. David Justice

9. Fred McGriff

Honorable mention: Mark Lemke, Jeff Blauser, Steve Avery, Ron Gant, and Bob Horner.

Honestly, Aaron is by far number one. Smoltz is a clear second mainly due to his longer tenure. Chipper is a clearcut number 3. With his last two seasons Andruw has vaulted to number four. Murphy, Glavine, Maddux, Niekro, and Justice are all honestly tied for number five. They all brought something special to this team and Justice by his play in the 1990 season I believe was a big spark to the 1991 season. I don’t see how anyone could deny his place in Braves’ history. I have to admit that I am somewhat astonished at the omission of McGriff. From ‘93 to ‘97 he was a fixture in the lineup and one of the best run producers.

I believe in the next three or four years that McCann, Francoeur, and James will be pushing their way into the top 10.

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 06:42 PM | Link to this

Allen, Stone Roses’ first album is flat-out brilliant (“I Wanna Be Adored” is one of my very favorite all-time songs) and there’s also a few great songs on Second Coming, particularly “Ten Storey Love Song.” But I can’t put ‘em on list because of limited number of releases.

I like some of Ian Brown’s solo stuff, too.

Their first album is perfect. A similar (though lesser) album never even remotely matched again by a band was the self-titled debut album by the La’s, with the sticks-to-your-brain single “There She Goes.” Great song, great album, band never did anything notable again.

By Bryan

January 8, 2007 06:45 PM | Link to this

Top 10 Atlanta Braves (in order)

1) Hank Aaron

2) Greg Maddux

3) Phil Niekro

4) Tom Glavine

5) John Smoltz

6) Dale Murphy

7) Andruw Jones

8) Chipper Jones

9) David Justice

10) Terry Pendleton or Andres Galarraga (TP gets it i think because of he stayed with the team as a coach)

Ten best bands

REM

WEEN

FLAMING LIPS

OUTKAST

BECK

RED HOT CHILI PEPPERS

RADIOHEAD

SMASHING PUMPKINS

SONIC YOUTH

DE LA SOULD

By Carolina Lady

January 8, 2007 06:46 PM | Link to this

jjs & Grinch, :-))) Y’all had me gong there for a minute! Had to go back and see what I had done! I do still agree with the sentiment of the quote.

jimmy, may I leave the corner now, please? :-)

(Has anybody had contact with Bob lately?)

Robert(JITB), how is your mother. Hope she’s recovering well!

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 06:49 PM | Link to this

That’s it for me. Gotta go to the gym for a while before the game.

Oh, I’ve got to brag about the find I picked up today at Decatur Wuxtry Records _ nearly mint-condition vinyl, original 1965 copy of Johnny Cash’s double-LP “Sings The Ballads of the True West.” Sweeeeet.

By John Hoar

January 8, 2007 06:50 PM | Link to this

I would have to put Smoltz as two followed by Maddux and Niekro.Granted, I haven’t checked the records, but if my memory is right there were several years that if Maddux had not won it would have been Smoltz or Glavine taking the Cy Young. There was not alot of difference. If you take them as being nearly even for those periods and then weighing in the overall performance, intangibles,loyalty, etc. of John Smoltz then you have a good reason to move him way up. As for Javy, I would drop him out completely. Bob Hornor? Very good as a rookie, but after that you could count on him not coming through in the clutch and poor defense. Maybe we should just have nine long- time great Braves. To be honest I can’t comment on Garr, it was doing the bad old days

By Chop Chop

January 8, 2007 06:56 PM | Link to this

Not a big REM fan…

Last 25 years…

Metallica, Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains…uh…Crash Test Dummies, Nelson, Poison, Snow, Hanson…lost my concentration…not a big fan of music in the last 25 years, I guess. Rock on, people.

Top 10 Atlanta Braves

1) Aaron 2) Maddux 3) Smoltz 4) Chipper 5) Andruw 6) Murph 7) Glavine 8) Knucksie 9) Justice 10)Crime Dog

Smoltz has been a great Brave, but Maddux is the best pitcher this team has had since Warren Spahn. He was lights-out for too long not to be listed at the top with Aaron. It’s just a show of respect from me.

By The Grinch

January 8, 2007 07:00 PM | Link to this

Robert, I see you’re a practicioner of DOB math: your screen name is “Justice is the Best” yet you have him ranked 8th on your list of best Braves in the last 25 years…

DOB, glad to see you like “Exodus” too! :-)

By Brad

January 8, 2007 07:01 PM | Link to this

What a great blog for us during a slow time of the year as far as the Braves are concerned.

1. Hank Arron
2. John Smoltz
3. Greg Maddux
4. Chipper Jones
5. Phil Niekro
6. Andruw Jones
7. Dale Murphy
8. Tom Glavine
9. David Justice
10. Terry Pendleton

By summerteeth

January 8, 2007 07:04 PM | Link to this

Steely Dan

3 Studio albums since 1980, 1 live album, and 3 studio albums by Mr. Steely Dan, Donald F*. Also a Grammy for record of the year in 2001. Granted their catalog dates back prior to 1980, but these guys own a particular sound that no one has ever been able to duplicate or categorize.

And I picked the Beasties over PE because they play their own instruments (when they put down the turn table). Also, my picks are more towards my likes, not based on popularity/sales/significance.

By bruce

January 8, 2007 07:11 PM | Link to this

MBATL and DAP: Thanks for your thoughts on the Reitsma introduction video (Mariner’s MLB site) on the previous blog.

MBATL: No I do not think there was any secret message, but I thought that some would question the timing of revealing the numbness to the Braves.

Dave said in the earlier blog article in which he told us Reitsma would not be back that “He never made excuses, but after the elbow surgery he confided that the condition caused periodic numbness in his pitching hand since the World Baseball Classic last fall”

Reitsma said in the video introduction (start listening around 4:25 point) that in the last two weeks of spring training he had numbness in his hand and fingers, and if there had been pain he would have said something sooner. In mid June he said his hand was completely numb and the doctors did not know why. (Condition causing problem is rare)

My main curiousity is when the Braves knew there was a numbness problem and how long they allowed him to pitch while numb. Its one thing (admirable) to not blame poor performance on injury or play though known injuries, but quite another to not tell management and allow loyalty to keep him going. I agree with DAP about wanting to slap Reitsma when he announced about the numbness after pitching so poorly for so long.

I recall folks saying that Bobby stayed with Reitsma too long when he was failing as closer… but when did Bobby know about the numbness problem? and was that timing a factor in not expressing interest in Reitsma after the non-tender? Given that the surgery was a complete success solving a long term problem, seems like the Braves would be interested in Reitsma as they do take on repair-job players… unless he witheld the information too long in the Braves view. (Remember Davies did not mention his groin tightness before he blew it out and had to have surgery, so I wonder if he might have some disfavor for that.)

Given that pitchers are allowed to blow on their hand in cold weather to warm it and improve feel, not revealing hand numbness seems very selfish and team damaging if that is what Reitsma did.

Dave do you have further insights on the timing of when the Braves knew about the numbness?
Thanks, Bruce

By Rosalynn

January 8, 2007 07:12 PM | Link to this

Aw, shucks. Thank you, DOB. If you should evah catalog my posts let’s not call it a “book” because Jimma is the autha in ouah family - he is the onla one who can write his own book for publacashion. Jimma can write with his left hand or with his right hand and can shell a peanut equally well. Jimma is moah than a little upset with the ajc.com headline “Soda prices headed higher, analyst says”. Jimma doesn’t like callin’ a co-cola a soda.

By KC

January 8, 2007 07:14 PM | Link to this

DOB: How is it that you left Ken Oberkfel and Bruce Bennedict of that list?????????

By The Stranger

January 8, 2007 07:17 PM | Link to this

DOB: I would like to petition to replace Guns & Roses with Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers on the Rock List and Javy Lopez with (any of the following:)Crime Dog, TP or El Gato Grande on the Braves list.

I understand your selection criteria, but let’s start with GnR. Who would you take in a head-to-head Rock-off, Axl or Mr. Young? And if you subtract them from the equation, then who would sling the nastiest axes between what’s left of GnR minus Axl and the cast of Crazy Horse? I still like Petty & The Heartbreakers just because they’ve always been there for me, but I would just as easily take Crazy Horse (or The Heartless Bastards, for that matter) over GnR.

As far as Javy goes, his below-average defensive abilities and the cloud of suspicion that will forever hang over his offensive production make him vulnerable on the list. TP and McGriff, though they wore the ‘A’ briefly, will forever be legends in the Braves’ legendary run and that gets them inclusion in my subjective book. And, for presence alone, The Big Cat has to get at least a footnote.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 8, 2007 07:19 PM | Link to this

Well, Grinch, Justice is my favorite player. However, I have to be objective. Aaron speaks for himself. The others I put ahead of Justice put in more time than Justice did as a Brave and Murphy stuck it out here when the teams he was on were horrible.

And I forgot to put Pendleton as #10.

By stew

January 8, 2007 07:25 PM | Link to this

Andruw is the greatest player in the all time history of baseball. Get it. It’s the truth Ruth.

By The Stranger

January 8, 2007 07:27 PM | Link to this

rasta raj rahley: you’re smokin’ top 10 makes me wonder just what you’re smokin’? It’s probably legal and it will most likely kill you if you are leaving 10 Ft. Ganja Plant and/or James Brown’s Body off of your smokin’ hot list.

By bruce

January 8, 2007 07:28 PM | Link to this

MBATL: No worries. Thanks though for your kindness. Bruce

By The Grinch

January 8, 2007 07:33 PM | Link to this

I was just yankin’ ya, Robert; I knew you were being objective.

Stranger, I can’t stand Guns n’ Roses (I used to like “Appetite,” but all their stuff’s so overplayed now I can’t even deal with that anymore), but I did see them open for Motley Crue at the Omni back when they (GNR) first started and nobody in Atlanta really knew who they were. Must’ve been ‘87 or ‘88 (back when Crue could still fill an arena…:-)) Axl got arrested during the third song for jumping on some dude in the front row, and the band had to improvise the rest of the set. Slash fired up a cigarette and sat on the edge of the stage and played one of the five best guitar solos I’ve ever seen live (and I’m an extremely guitar-oriented dude who’s seen an awful lot of shows) for about 20 minutes. His stuff on alblum doesn’t reflect it, but don’t ever sell Slash short in the guitar department; that dude throws down.

By Paul

January 8, 2007 07:33 PM | Link to this

I would drop GNR off the list too. Although Appetite is probably the best album of the 80’s they didnt do much after their debut album. (Lies was horrible, the Illusions were okay, and the Spaghetti Incident was awful) Personally I would add the Descendants and Beck. I dont think Beck gets the credit and the attention that he deserves. I could also see putting the Beasties in there too.

By bobbymahlon

January 8, 2007 07:35 PM | Link to this

How in the world could you have Javy in the top ten. He was and is a terrible catcher and had only a couple of good years with the bat. You could not give him away today.

By The Grinch

January 8, 2007 07:36 PM | Link to this

Should say Slash “could or used to throw down;” don’t know what he does anymore beyond that Volkswagon commercial; Axl’s voice used to be a novelty to me but now makes me want to claw my eyes out so I haven’t listened in years.

By journalist jimmy smith

January 8, 2007 07:51 PM | Link to this

ralph garr history lesson: Garr still holds Atlanta career records for batting average (.317) and triples (40), which he amassed playing for the Braves from 1968-75. Garr collected 200 or more hits in three of those seasons, taking home the National League batting title in 1974 when he batted .353. He remains one of only three Atlanta players ever to lead the league in hitting. he was number 2 in two other seasons - number 4 in another. garr was a much better player than many realize.

By The Stranger

January 8, 2007 08:04 PM | Link to this

Grinch, I’ll defer to your insight. I know Slash has done a lot more and gone a lot further with his talent than Axl has over the past 10 years. In the end, though, Axl squandered Slash’s talent and became a caricature of 90’s sleaze rock. Kind of like what Courtney did to Kurt only without the suicide thing.

By Johnny B

January 8, 2007 08:06 PM | Link to this

When your ownership will not spend any money to upgrade the team, the Braves Baseball Blog turns into Rolling Stone Jr. Here’s my top 4 list of the next Brave’s players sure to bolt the ATL when they become free agents in the future:

o Brian McCann

o Jeff Francoeur

o Chuck James

o Adam LaRoche

Enjoy these players now because Time Warner (or “Liberty Mutual”) is NOT going to pony up the money when they become free agents. There’s going to be NO hometown discount here folks, these stars will say “see ya.” The AJC columnists should refer to the Braves as the Atlanta Hawks JR., because that’s what they have become. Thanks Time Warner. What burns even more is the Braves could have traded Adam LaRoche for legitimate talent upgrades, now the Braves will get nothing when he walks in free agency. Oh yes, the Braves and their proverbial “sandwich” draft picks for losing free agents. I’ve got to think about Genius John’s offseason additions to cheer me up… can you say Willie Harris????? I know you can because Time Warner owns the team. Notice all the excitement we’ve had since the season ended… actually none because the Braves Blog has turned into Rolling Stone Jr. Thanks Time Warner.

By The Grinch

January 8, 2007 08:11 PM | Link to this

He may be a great hitter, Jimmy, but he makes a mighty ugly fish. Speaking of aligator-oriented reptiles, it’s time for some football. Since I don’t care one way or the other about Ohio State and I always pull for the SEC in bowl games, my choice should be clear cut. However, I despise Florida above and beyond all other college programs as they have the nerve to beat my Dawgs consistantly for no apparent reason and act classless about it to boot. Go Buckeyes! WOOF WOOF WOOF!

By brian

January 8, 2007 08:13 PM | Link to this

DOB - suprised I did not see Michael Jackson on the list - as far as most influencial musicians in the past 25 years he has to be there.

Just kidding. Anyway I believe GNR should be there but it is open for debate. They were absolutely huge in the late 80s - sold out STADIUMS - and they could put on a show. My main argument against would be how short lived they were.

Anyway, for the past 25 years,

U2 REM Van Halen (again - mid to late 80s they were kings -Fair Warning, Diver Down, 1984, 5150, OU812. Hard to argue against Eddie though obviously cheese) Metallica Nirvana can’t choose a 10th

How about the 5 all time bands- 1. Beatles 2. Elvis 3. Led Zepplin 4. Johnny Cash 5. U2

Forgot about Nick Esasky - I would not wish vertigo on anyone. I would add Bruce Sutter as one of the worst signings (big name signings) to - a closer was supposed to put us over the top. Yes a hall of famer, but one who was past his prime and spent most of his Atlanta career on the DL or underperforming. Pearl Jam garth brooks Smashing Pumpkins Guns n Roses

By TennesseePaul

January 8, 2007 08:18 PM | Link to this

Is this list top 10 Atlanta Braves all time or top 10 in the past 25 years?All time Atlanta…
Smoltz, Maddux, Glavine, Aaron, Chipper, Andruw, Murphy, Niekro, McGriff, Justice.

All Time Braves would be even harder. McGriff and Justice certainly wouldn’t be there. That leaves two spots for Tommy Bond, Eddie Matthews, Hugh Duffy, Kid Nichols, Warren Spahn, and even though they barely played with the team, Babe Ruth and King Kelly. I’m sure there are even more though. Why rank em? They all played for the greatest franchise in the game.

GO BRAVES

By The Grinch

January 8, 2007 08:19 PM | Link to this

Stranger, keep in mind I don’t care one way or the other for Slash or GNR; just sayin’ the dude can play when put on the spot. I would agree with you and say Axl’s overrated, but that word and my opinion almost got me castrated the other day by DOB. In fact, it may have unwittingly been the source of the music part of this particular blog (“…,R.E.M. tops these lists.”) I don’t ever remember him mentioning them much before that.

Johnny B, we have much better taste than Rolling Stone; that magazine ceased to be relevent about 15 years ago.

See y’all at halftime.

By MBATL

January 8, 2007 08:23 PM | Link to this

Sutter sure had nice things to say about Ted Turner and the Braves, at his induction to the HOF… I was really impressed (and surprised) by that. But yeah, he was a bust for us.

GNR has GOT to be in, IMO. If for nothing more than Appetite (I remember telling friends that this was the next Led Zeppelin… and they would’ve been if they’d kept their act together).

Bruce - thanks - and if I’m understanding correctly, we had a similar situation with Davies last year. AFTER he got seriously hurt, he announced that his groin had been barking for a while. What are you gonna do… these guys want to play.

By Rosalynn

January 8, 2007 08:29 PM | Link to this

Only the Grinch would call Ralph Gaah an ugla fish. Fish aah among the most beautiful of God’s creatchas - and among the most tasta. Jimma and I love to go to the Red Lobsta. I always orda the snappa. Jimma favahs the groupa. I have nevah tried the gaah.

By chris

January 8, 2007 08:35 PM | Link to this

Dave, I think your list is dead on. Folks really forget how dominating Maddux was. Not only was he Cy for 4 straight years but he was in the running for Cy for another 4. His E.R.A. and win total doesn’t compare to Smoltz’s, his time in the pen notwithstanding.

Chris

By Alan

January 8, 2007 08:41 PM | Link to this

It’s good to see Ralph Garr starting to get recognition. He absolutely deserves to be on the list, which has to start with the 2 Hall of Famers. Here’s my take, in order:

Aaron Niekro Maddux Glavine Smoltz C Jones A Jones Murphy Garr Justice

Can’t really comment on the bands, many of which I’ve never heard of. Steely Dan is outstanding, but I think the group formed in the late ’70s (when I was in my 30s in case you’re wondering). Still going strong (Steely Dan, that is). Saw (and heard) them in concert (with their “old” keyboard player, Michael McDonald) this past summer.

Next list, DOB, should be the all-time best names in Atlanta Braves history - and here are 2 sure-fire Hall of Famers: Larvell “Sugar Bear” Blanks and Biff Pocoroba.

Also, I’m wondering if anyone else read on mlb.com the HOF votes of their correspondents. All 12 voted for Gossage, Gwynn and Ripken - but no one else got more than 7 (Rice and Dawson got that many as I recall). McGwire got 3 votes (he continues hovering around 25% in most polls), but how about this: Paul O’Neill got a vote and so did Tony Fernandez!

By summerteeth

January 8, 2007 08:53 PM | Link to this

DOB…here’s a good music link for ya…bunch of freebies too!

http://aquariumdrunk.blogspot.com/

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 8, 2007 09:11 PM | Link to this

I’m stating my top 10 Braves list without having looked at anyone else’s - including DOB’s.

1. Hammering Hank - the greatest Brave ever, in the past and in the future.
2. Dale Murphy
3. John Smoltz
4. Greg Maddux
5. Tom Glavine
6. Chipper
7. Andruw Jones
8. Terry Pendleton (in my opinion, the Braves fortunes turned with his free agent acquisition)
9. Phil Neikro 10 Don Sutton - oh, wait a minute - he never pitched for the Braves, just called games….so,
10. Len Barker - ok, just kidding here - he was our WORST TRADE EVER….
11. David Justice.

Top ten bands since 1982? Hell if I know - all I do is listen to talk radio and deep tracks on XM.

By Lew

January 8, 2007 09:13 PM | Link to this

I’m sorry, but I’ve never even heard of the Pixies. I absolutely refuse to accept as a top ten band of the past 25 years, a band I’ve never even heard of.

By brian

January 8, 2007 09:20 PM | Link to this

scalp em - I would put McGriff above TP. he was huge in his years here

By The Stranger

January 8, 2007 09:28 PM | Link to this

I think it was JC the Ute who first summoned the ghost of Ralph Garr to the list of the Top 10 Atlanta Braves, but thanks to jjs for getting the Road Runner on the fast track to recognition.

Shame on me and any other self-respecting Braves fan for not knowing or not remembering his greatness. That ‘74 season was legendary.

The 1974 Braves had the 2nd to last attendance record and finished 3rd in the West. It was also Hank’s last year in Atlanta, as well as the last year the Braves had both Niekros on the payroll at the same time.

And the few fans in the stands that year would have seen the Road Runner win his 3rd MVP while hitting .353 in over 600 ABs.

That, Homeboy, is a leadoff hitter.

By MBATL

January 8, 2007 09:39 PM | Link to this

Don’t forget the Beeg Boy, Rico Carty; won the batting title in 1970 (I think), and had a 30-something-game hitting streak.

As to names, there was also Bedrock - but that came around later in his career.

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 09:50 PM | Link to this

Bryan, just got back online and noticed one on your list that was anothr glaring omission from mine _ Sonic Youth. Love Sonic Youth, have since Daydream Nation (later went back and bought their earlier stuff, but that’t the album that did it for me first).

Don’t know who I’d remove to put them on my list, though. Probably G’n’R. But I dont want to do any more revisionist history, so I’ll stick with my list. But the Youth, definitely one of the seminal bands of the era.

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 09:56 PM | Link to this

Summerteeth, very good point on Beasties playing their own instruments (so do The Roots, by the way). Saw Beasties a couple of times in early 90s after they started playing instruments again (they also did when they were a bad punk band before that Licensed to Ill went big) and they were indeed a rockin’ outfit live.

They put out a lot of strong albums, including the great Paul’s Boutique.

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 09:58 PM | Link to this

Bruce, no, I don’t have more insights into timetable on the Reitsma injury. And at this point, don’t really plan on pursuing it any further. It’s done. He’s gone.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 8, 2007 10:07 PM | Link to this

Hell of a football game going on - Ohio State scores on the opening kickoff, Gators score 3 straight, look like they will run away with it, Ohio State punches back and scores, and now the Gators are moving again. My buddy who took the “under” bet (47 is the over/under) is already crapping in his pants, I’ll bet!!

Looking back over the posts, after I stated my top 10 list, can’t really argue with any, but let’s break things down.

Terry Pendleton (my #8) - yes DOB, he only had 3 full years - one of which was an MVP year - and who else has won the MVP for Atlanta? Dale Murphy (back to back, which is why he is my number two, along with the fact he was the class of the organization in the late 70’s to mid 80’s), and Chipper. That’s it folks - Hank never won an MVP in Atlanta - neither has Andruw (though I think he should have last year). Pendleton finished 2nd in the MVP race the next year, and won a Gold Glove to boot. The main reason I think Pendleton belongs on the list is that prior to his coming, the Braves were LOSERS. Pendleton came from a winning team (Cards) who had been to 2 WS, and brought that attitude to the Braves - I know the day that I heard that he was signed that things had changed for the Braves, and he was JS first significant roster move.

Bob Horner - created tons of excitement when he was drafted and brought up to the majors - big bat, OK fielder - problem was he was so injury prone he never could live up to his potential. Hit 30+ home runs only twice in his 9 years in Atlanta - career average of 22 HR’s a season - has the distinction of being the only Brave in history (I think) of hitting 4 HR’s in a game - that was one hell of a game (listened to it on the radio- couldn’t believe what I was hearing). Sorry, he doesn’t make my top ten list.

Ralph Garr - Atlanta’s hope for the next Lou Brock. Great hitter, great speed - though he never stole more than 35 bases in a year, was an average fielder. Absolutely one of my favorite Braves of all time - sheer excitement every time he came to bat - but he doesn’t make my top 10.

Javy - love him - home grown Brave, big, strong clutch hitter. Below average defensive catcher… a streak hitter, who, when he was hot, was unstoppable. I will not say anything bad about Javy - hated to lose him when we did - another “market” casualty at the time - but, not in my top ten.

By bruce

January 8, 2007 10:08 PM | Link to this

Dave, Thanks. I understand. Bruce

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 8, 2007 10:09 PM | Link to this

Grinch:

Me thinks Rosalynn is sweet on you - thinking she is gonna abandon Jimma for you any minute.

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 10:13 PM | Link to this

Stranger, how in the world can I put T.P. (Petty, not Pendleton) on a list of bands that got big in 1982 or later, especially when I just took off U2 because their first two LPs came out before that? Petty not even close to meeting that criteria _ his self-titled debut LP came out in 1976, man, and he had four albums out by 1981, including You’re Gonna Get it in 1978 and Damn the Torpedoes in 1979.

And Neil w/ Crazy Horse … come on, man. Love ‘em to death, but Everybody Knows This is Nowhere came out in 1969! (uh, 13 years before the cutoff).

I mean, we’ll do an all-time list later, but Neil and Crazy Horse don’t belong on this one anymore than Led Zep or any number of other classic bands. But thanks for the input, bro. I don’t disagree with your argument at all.

Believe me, if this was all-time rock bands, GnR wouldn’t be on mine, surely not in the top 10 or top 25. But this is just past 25 years.

By superman

January 8, 2007 10:15 PM | Link to this

florida 34 ohio state 14 at halftime wow

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 10:16 PM | Link to this

Scalp ‘em, heck of a game if you’re a Gator, yes.

I don’t have any problem at all with T.P., or even Horner, on the list instead of Javy. I just didn’t think T.P.’s time here was quite long enough, that’s all. But his impact on the worst-to-first team is obviously worth a lot. Again, I’ll stay with my list, but I seriously debated putting T.P. on it.

By ssiscribe

January 8, 2007 10:26 PM | Link to this

Great topic for one of those weeks in January when absolutely nothing is happening.

(I know. The BCS title game is on and the Falcons have a new coach. But here in baseball land, there is nothing happening).

So, with the Thrashers off tonight and spring training still a few weeks away, I spent plenty of time tonight thinking about this list. Don’t know if you agree with it, but here goes one person’s perspective.

Editor’s note: I started going to games in 1979, when I was 6. I’ve watched every team since then, and have read plenty about the franchise’s history. So, here’s my top 10 all-time Atlanta Braves, in order.

1. Hank Aaron
2. John Smoltz
3. Tom Glavine
4. Greg Maddux
5. Phil Niekro
6. Dale Murphy
7. Andruw Jones
8. Chipper Jones
9. David Justice
10. Fred McGriff

Aaron stood for so much more than just a baseball player, given what he went through and the era in our nation’s history he went through it. Never mind the fact he had good speed, hit for average and played good defense. Classy. Proud. The best of baseball, and a great man.

Smoltz is second on my list because he’s been here for the entire playoff run, because he’s excelled as a starter and a reliever, because he’s been a force in the postseason and because he is the heart and soul of the Braves’ run.

I put Glavine next. True, only two Cy Youngs as opposed to Maddux, but 20 wins in 1991, the World Series MVP performance in 1995 and his strong performance through the years puts him third.

Maddux, obviously, is brilliant, and his 1994-95 performance may be among some of the best pitching any of us ever will see. The first World Series game I saw in person, Game 1 in 1995, he was nearly unhittable (two-hit CG of Cleveland; Glav and Woh-Daddy did him one better in the clincher in Game 6).

Niekro was a hoss. What did he have in 79, 41 decisions? And he lost what, 20 of them? A shame he never got to pitch in the World Series. Much as Murphy carried the franchise through the 1980s, Knucksie did so in the 1970s.

Volumes have been written about Murphy and what he meant to the franchise during the lean years. But those who didn’t see him play don’t realize that, before his career took such a sharp downturn, Murph had speed, power, hit for average and played great defense. All-around star.

I put Andruw next because of his defense, because he finally has broken through the past two years as a leader, especially in 2005 when everybody was hurt and all the rookies were just arriving. He changes games with his glove and arm. You can’t quantify that, but it’s something every opposing team knows.

Chipper, obviously, has been such a big part of the Braves run. Should’ve been rookie of the year in 1995. Hope that we don’t look back on him in 10 years and say, “what if he hadn’t broken down in his later years?” Still commands respect at the plate and is a leader.

DJ always will be remembered for two things: The World Series winning homer in 95, and his blunt criticism of fans and, in some cases, his own teammates. But nobody can question his heart and desire, and he possessed one of the sweetest swings you’ll ever see. Great arm, big-time hitter in the clutch. His homer off Dibble in 1991 to cap the rally from 6-0 at Riverfront is one of those moments I’ll never forget.

Really had a tough time with No. 10. Went with McGriff because, even though he only was here for four and a half years, he fueled the big surge from 10 and a half down to the Giants in 1993. He starred on the world championship team and he was a leader who played the game the right way, a clutch hitter who played good defense.

Honorable mention list (in no particular order, players I seriously thought about for the top 10 list): Ralph Garr, Bob Horner, Orlando Cepeda, Mark Lemke, Chris Chambliss, Gene Garber, Terry Pendleton, Mark Wohlers, John Rocker, Denny Neagle, Steve Avery (whoever called Avery the biggest flameout earlier in the blog needs a clue, and a history lesson), Rafael Furcal.

I could go on all night about great games and players who didn’t work out (Ernie Whitt and Damasco Garica, anyone?), but this is enough strolling down memory lane for one night.

The Scribe abides. April 6, and the home opener against the Mets, will be here before you know it.

Peace.

—30—

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 10:27 PM | Link to this

Sorry, Lew _ sorry that you haven’t heard of the Pixies. Ought to be ashamed of yourself, since they’re from up your way (Massachusetts) and were maybe the biggest band among the college set in Boston during the 1980s (couple of them went to UMass and even wrote a great song called Umass).

The Pixies had a fervent core audience, as evidenced by the fact that they sold out every single show (including the Fox Theatre show in Atlanta, which I attended) on a reunion tour about 2-3 years ago after a 12-year hiatus.

Lew, I just Googled something for your benefit, if you care to read something brief about them, from Slate:

Their [Pixies’] ascent had been effortless: Forming in Massachusetts in the mid-’80s, the Pixies followed their big-brother band, the Throwing Muses, onto Britain’s chic 4AD label and rose to the top of England’s indie charts before signing with an American company or finding an American audience. But their first stateside release, 1989’s Doolittle, on Elektra, barely grazed the Billboard charts. In subsequent years, America’s mass-market radio stations ignored the Pixies, the mass audience avoided them, and, despite a high-profile gig opening for U2 on the 1992 Zooropa tour, fame eluded them.

And yet the Pixies were remarkably influential: Sonic Youth may have coined the phrase “verse-chaos-verse” to describe their own formula, but it was Pixies frontman Black Francis who perfected the trick of sailing airy, folklike melodies into seas of screams and white noise. “I was trying to write the ultimate pop song. I was basically trying to rip off the Pixies,” Kurt Cobain said in 1994, when Rolling Stone asked him about the runaway success of “Smells Like Teen Spirit.” Seven years later, Radiohead guitarist Johnny Greenwood told British television that “the reason we don’t use as much guitar now is there are only a handful of Pixies albums. You can’t keep copying them.” (Compare the famous scrape of Radiohead’s 1993 breakthrough single, “Creep,” to Pixie guitarist Joey Santiago’s work on Doolittle’s “I Bleed.”)

Of course, a great many bands have done just that—as Dave Grohl of the Foo Fighters put it recently in New York Times, “The quiet/loud dynamic that’s dominated alternative radio for the last 14 years can be attributed to one and only one band, the Pixies.”

By The Grinch

January 8, 2007 10:31 PM | Link to this

OK, everyone… I hate Florida. I really do. This is a team that lost to Auburn (whom my Dawgs beat 37-15) and should’ve lost to my Dawgs (psychology being the difference). They also almost lost to South Carolina, and probably another SEC team I’m too drunk to remember now. I WISH THEY WOULD LOSE THIS GAME. That said, what does this game say to everyone in the country who hasn’t gotten it yet? THERE IS THE SEC, THEN THERE IS EVERYONE ELSE. NOBODY picked Florida in this game. This game was supposed to showcase the strength of the Big-10 vs. the speed of the SEC, with the Big-10 winning handily. So far (and the second half would take a mighty improbable comeback to state otherwise), the SEC seems to have both the speed AND the power. They’re dominating the line on both sides. They’re completely dominating TOP despite using a spread offense with no legitimate running back. This is a joke. All other conferences hang your head and admit, you don’t even belong on the same field. That said, I hope Florida loses this game and every other one they ever play. Damn Florida, and the SEC RULES COLLEGE FOOTBALL.

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 10:34 PM | Link to this

Grinch, you’re right _ we do have better tastes than Rolling Stone, which sold out about the time you said they did, perhaps 15 years ago. I still get it, for some good reporting and such, but don’t read it cover to cover like I used to. The Hunter Thompson tribute issue last year was their best issue in a decade, at least.

By the way, the headline says REM tops list, but I didn’t rank them No. 1. Just put them in my top 10. And we’ve had many, many discussions of REM here in the past, including many stories of Buck at Wuxtry, etc. Just not quite as many stories as came up last week, when a couple of new old friends of the band came forth with some cool tales.

Anyway, I’d say for most of the 80s they were my favorite band.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 8, 2007 10:37 PM | Link to this

Top ten nicknames for Braves players.

1. The Hammer (Hank Aaron) - nuff said.
2. Roadrunner (Ralph Garr) - very descriptive
3. Dirt (Mark Lemke) - did another guy ever live up to his name as well?
4. Skates (Lonnie Smith) - watching him play left field and run the bases was always an adventure.
5. Cha-Cha (Rico Carty) - the original “Cha-Cha”
6. The Claw - Rafael Ramirez - remember the joke when he was playing? “What do Rafael Ramirez and Michael Jackson have in common? They both wear a glove on one hand for no apparent reason!”
7. Crime Dog (Fred McGriff)- not indicative of his prowess on the field, but when somebody talked about baseball’s “Crime Dog”, you knew who they were talking about.
8. Knucksie (Phil Niekro) - not too imaginative, but again, there was only one “Knucksie” (with apologies to Hoyt Wilhelm)
9. Frenchie (Jeff Francouer)
10. Baby Huey (Brian McCann) - I’m tooting my own horn here, since I came up with that name - heck, I’m entitled to it - because I am the Sandwich King!

Anybody else got any good nicknames??

By MBATL

January 8, 2007 10:39 PM | Link to this

I think Avery deserves much more consideration than Horner.

Avery was part of the pitching resurgence that began in ‘91; he shut down the Reds twice to get us into the post season, and shut down the Pirates in TWO 1-0 games to get us into the greatest WS ever played.

Many have said his ‘91 post season is the greatest ever, by any pitcher …

He had only 3 really good years here - ‘91 through ‘93 - injuries made him an average pitcher at best after ‘93, but he’s worth consideration on the list. He WAS here for 7 years, so he ‘qualifies.’

I’d put him and TP at 10a… both really contributed a lot to our success in the ’90s.

By The Stranger

January 8, 2007 10:40 PM | Link to this

I’ll admit it, I had an Axl to grind.

But, hey, if I’m going to ignore Ralph Garr’s 1974 season, I should be forgiven for not acknowledging Neil Young & Crazy Horse circa 1969.

Rock on, brother.

By huck5

January 8, 2007 10:40 PM | Link to this

1.Poison 2.Ratt 3.Dokken 4.Warrant 5.Cinderella 6.LA Guns 7.Enuff Z’ Nuff 8.Europe 9.Bon Jovi 10.Slaughter End of discussion… :)

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 10:42 PM | Link to this

Paul _ BECK would definitely have gotten consideration from me … if we were doing solo artists. Bands, man. There are no solo artists on my list. No Elvis Costello, Prince, Ryan Adams, Steve Earle, Joseph Arthur, etc., just bands. Sorry for the confusion.

By Robert

January 8, 2007 10:44 PM | Link to this

For anyone who thinks this is hindsight, you can go back a couple of blogs and look it up - I think the quote was “Florida, with relative ease”

This game was a gimme from the get-go

Ohio State got a lot of annointed but undeserved repsect and awe since they were #1 going into the season

Ohio State’s win over Texas was made a big deal of at the time. Texas’ performance after that game showed that it wasnt such a big deal after all

The only other decent team Ohio State played was Michigan. Michigan got hyped because they beat Notre Dame (you know, the team that can lose 8 straight games and move up from 7th to 3rd in the rankings)

LSU showed us where Notre Dame stood. And USC popped Michigan’s balloon

Truth be told, Tressel showed us he knew this back when he opted not to vote for his opponent. Tressel’s best interest wouldve been to vote for Michigan - it gives him an out, even if he loses, with the catch being it’s hard to beat any decent team twice in one year. On the other hand, he damn well knew Florida was the better team, but he wasnt about to vote for em because he wanted no part of them

Going for it on 4th down at your own 29 in the first half was proof - he knew

Now of course we’ll hear the excuses. Too many days off - too many turnovers - an injury to “their best player” (funny how the Heisman Trophy winner suddenly isnt thier best player)

The real answer - too much Florida speed.

Ess - Eee - f%^&*kn - CEE

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 8, 2007 10:44 PM | Link to this

Yo Grinch: Did you just see which team won the “Game Changing Play” of the year? That’s right - my Tigers - and, um, what was the play, and who did we make it against? Why, it was the blocked punt against the Grators, and, um, was the only loss the Grators will suffer this year. Of course, we weren’t good enough to beat your team - got embarrassed by a bunch of leg humpers on our own field. Anyway, gotta take the props where we can find them, since we can’t seem to win it on the field.

By dadgum

January 8, 2007 10:45 PM | Link to this

Gotta take Javy off the list. McGriff by far should be on there. The stadium was on fire (literally) when he arrived. The man was a big time player.

DOB’s band list just tells me how far removed I am from what was going on or the music just really sucks over the last 25 years. Yeah, it’s probably me. NOt sure where Counting Crows is on the list but I would sure put them on there ahead of some mentioned. Agree with G & R and REM though.

By Robert

January 8, 2007 10:47 PM | Link to this

Grinch - scroll back some

Maybe I’m nobody, but I said it too blogs ago (and I’ve been telling people since the day the matchup was made) - Florida - big

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this

Adirondack, just saw your question from hours ago, about whether certain folks are reading the blog. Yes, I know some do and have since early last season, and at least one prominent Brave has posted several times this winter. But I’m not going to give away his identity, or even a hint, because I like the fact that he feels comfortable enough to post here.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 8, 2007 10:51 PM | Link to this

DOB:

I hear, and understand your statements/opinions about Terry P. But, though I know you have been covering the Braves for a while, you were not here from the time the Braves came to town, through the 70’s and 80’s. Outside of 1969 and 1982, the team just absolutely stunk. God knows how many games I went to over the years where my dad and I went just for the major league atmosphere, becauae we knew they were going to lose.

Pendleton’s arrival changed that (along with the emergence of Glavine, Smoltz, et.al., who had been shelled their first few years). I’ll bet if you talk to JS, Smoltz, and some of the others who were around at that time, they will back me up on this.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 8, 2007 10:52 PM | Link to this

Dig it Earl - dude just sacked Troy Smith after his helmet got knocked off - as much as I can’t stand the Grator fans, their team is playing one hell of a ball game tonight.

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 10:55 PM | Link to this

Huck5, don’t agree with much (or any) of your list, but love the way you announced it. A man of conviction. That’s what we like.

By Chris

January 8, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this

1.) Aaron 2.) Maddux 3.) Niekro 4.) Glavine 5.) C. Jones 6.) Murph 7.) Smoltz 8.) Darrell Evans 9.) Rico Carty 10.) Lopez

By The Grinch

January 8, 2007 11:04 PM | Link to this

Robert, my bad…didn’t catch that one (kind of like OS’s receivers)…you da man. You’ll get no argument from me obviously about the SEC, though.

Scalp ‘em; I hear ya. Kind of like Ali claiming since he could beat Foreman any day of the week and Foreman beat Frazier any day of the week that Frazier ought to be easy…’hit don’t work like that. It’s 37-15 until proven otherwise on the field. Props, though, for beating those F-ing Gators that I hate WAY worse than I do Auburn. We can’t seem to beat them, and it doesn’t make any sense. 11 times out of 15 we’ve had the better team in the last 15 years, yet only won twice. It just doesn’t add up. BLAH!

By Robert

January 8, 2007 11:06 PM | Link to this

Best hard rock bands of recent times - Gotta go with two who lived the life and didnt just act it (and consequantly burned out quick) and one that lived the dream of every no talent garage band

1.GnR’s - By Use your Illusion they were a parody of themselves, but in the early days, they were the first really dangerous band since the Dorrs and the Pistols

2.AIC - Layne voice and Jerry’s guitar combined to ya like two tons of bricks (love that first grinding chord on Angry Chair)

3.Nirvana - Kurt Cobain might’ve been the worst guitarist and the worst singer of all time - and yet this band worked, until his tragic end

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 8, 2007 11:11 PM | Link to this

Yo Grinch:

Yo Dawgs win over us this year, plus 50 cents in a truck stop, will get you a cheap French Tickler out of one of those machines in the bathroom. See ya next year Dude - looking forward to the tailgate razzing usual guy’s BS and beer drinking before hand with ya, cuz you’re gonna crawl off with your tail between your legs after the game - Bwaahaahaa!!

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 8, 2007 11:19 PM | Link to this

DOB, I know you won’t give away the Brave who posts here but I am going to take a guess it is either Francoeur or Andruw since they seemed to be the most laid back and would seem like the ones most likely to speak with us “common” folk. I would say Chipper but he is on his ranch and it seems like he distances himself from the world. We sure know it isn’t LaRoche.

In any event, to whichever Brave it is, allow me to say that you are welcome and thanks for mingling with us fans.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 8, 2007 11:21 PM | Link to this

Robert:

If you predicted the Grator stomp, props to you… you were ahead of me. I just thought they would win. Thought the Grators would “dink” OSU to death (short passes, screens, etc), and also thought Florida would shut down Ginn & Gonazalez (which they have done, at least by knocking Ginn out of the game). Also thought Troy Smith would be running for his life when his recievers were covered, and the speed of the Grators line would chase him down - which has happened (see the “Dig it Earl” post above. I did think that the 47 over under was high - didn’t forsee OSu running back the opening kick off, didn’t see OSU fumbling a kick off on their own 15, and didn’t see the Grators getting such great field position their first 2 possessions. Such is the game.

Grinch is right, though - the SEC is, far and away, the best league - how else can you explain the team that finished tied for 2nd in its division beating the national champ? And losing to the lowly Dawgs, (and not just losing, but getting p** all over), a few weeks later? Or, the same team beating LSU, who absolutely destroyed the wannabe BCS team Notre Dame? Let the rest of these turds play an SEC team every week - to hell with their won loss record - lets see what their injury list looks like each week. Football in the SEC is WAR, every week. In other conferences, its just another football game.

By MEB

January 8, 2007 11:21 PM | Link to this

DOB… my son tells me that your list is laden with prog rock bands. Says list should have the following:

Red Hot Chilli Peppers Coldplay Weezer Foo Fighters Smashing Pumpkins

He has little input into the Braves list but I find myself agreeing with you except for placing Smoltz and Dale Murphy higher. If you were to expand your list to top 15 I would add:

Fred Mcgriff Ralph Garr Jeff Blauser Steve Avery Rafael Furcal

GO BRAVES!!!

By Robert

January 8, 2007 11:30 PM | Link to this

Grinch, it’s HARD to root for Florida under any circumstances (and might’ve been impossible if d&*khead was still their coach). The disrespect shown the SEC helped.

I’m rooting for em for conference respect. But rooting for em and seeing the mismatch were not the same thing.

It was really amazing to me how the pundits almost to a man gave Florida no chance. The lemmings preferred to laud each other and totally ignored a fundamental and repeatedly proven tenet of the college game

When one team across the board plays the game at a different speed than the other - then you can throw every other analysis out the window, because the faster team is gonna win in a blowout

I learned this lesson twenty some years ago, when Miami first stepped into prominence. It was reenforced in the 92 Sugar Bowl (when Miami was on the wrong end of the speed differential against Alabama) and in the 1996 Florida-FSU game.

And yet the guys who know the game said Ohio State big, to a man. I know at this point it’s gloating, but I’d bet those guys probably to a man think that - nah I wont say it

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 8, 2007 11:31 PM | Link to this

I think the “Brave” posting is Bobby Cox, and I think he is posting as Robert. All of the negative comments he makes about himself are designed to draw comments of support - noboby can hate Bobby that much.

By The Grinch

January 8, 2007 11:35 PM | Link to this

We’re not as familiar with truckstops and their bathroom equpipment here in Georgia as y’all are in ‘bama since we actually have things like homes without licence plates and turn signals, but I appreciate the sentiment. Since my team talked it for me, I don’t need to talk any trash. But yeah, I look forward to it, no doubt. Roll Tide. :-)

By Robert

January 8, 2007 11:37 PM | Link to this

Jeff Blauser?

He was one of the top 15 Braves on three seperate occasions - 92, 93, and 97

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 8, 2007 11:38 PM | Link to this

Robert:

Good analysis of the OSU-FL issues - what was your prediction of the outcome of the FL - Auburn game, just out of curiousity? The outcome of the GA-Auburn game?

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 11:45 PM | Link to this

MEB, I’d probably agree with those five additions to a top 15, except I’d have Pendleton on it instead of Blauser….

As for the bands list, I’m surprised it took this long for someone to mention Coldplay. They really do have some great tunes, just a bit too precious at times. for me….

As for GnR, many of you were surprised I have them on list, especially since I also said that bands I clearly like a lot more, like Drive-By Truckers, Soundgarden and Alice In Chains, aren’t on it.

Tough to rationalize, except that that Appetite for Destruction album really was fiercely strong, just a loud, once-in-a-career (literally, for them) statement that still sounds great today, even though you’ve heard the songs enough that every one of the hits should be incredibly annoying by now.

I don’t know, GnR isn’t something I throw on anymore, and as someone pointed out, that was really their only great album. But man, was it something. And it really set the straight-ahead rock template for a while. They just had such an enormous impact with that album.

But if you look at it just in terms of sustained excellence, I mean, they’re not even in my top 50 bands of the past 25 years. Bands like Smashing Pumpkins, Drive-By Truckers, Social Distortion (another I forgot when I made my list), Guided By Voices, Screaming Trees … those bands all had or have had 3-4 great albums, at least.

GnR had just one, with a few great songs on their other lesser albums, like November Rain, but not much else.

So yes, they really are on my list just on the strength of one album. Could argue that doesn’t make much sense, but hey, if you were old enough at that time to appreciate it when it came out, that fresh blast when you first heard it, and the next 100 times you heard it, those opening chords, you know how that album just tore a hole in things for a while. It really left an impression, and still does.

But if you told me to name my top 10 bands of 25 years based on the strength of several albums, they would not be in my top 50. Or my top 100.

They’re there for just one very powerful album, yes.

By Robert

January 8, 2007 11:49 PM | Link to this

Ok, so now the question becomes - do we learn the leasson from this game

12-0 they may have been, but they arent in the top FIVE teams in the country, much less number one

12-0 against mostly nobody is kinda like, oh, I dunno, umpteen division titles against mostly nobody

1.Florida 2.LSU 3.USC

These three could play with and beat each other any given week. The rest are in the minor leagues

By David O'Brien

January 8, 2007 11:52 PM | Link to this

What a total, unmitigated butt-stompin’ the Gators have administered. Gator fans will be absolutely insufferable now, with BOTH the football and basketball titles in their possession at the same time. As well they should be. Unprecedented….

Scalp ‘em, I just read your comments on Pendleton. I hear ya, man. I understand. He had a major role in changing the culture of losing here. For that, I can definitely see him on the list of top 10. Again, no disagreement.

By Robert

January 8, 2007 11:56 PM | Link to this

Certainly didnt see Georgia beating Auburn (much less hammering em). Didnt analyze Florida Auburn

LSU mightve actually been the best team of all of em

Scalp - and maybe it’s good that you asked these questions so I can explain where I’m coming from

I dont thnik I’m so smart for seeing this game as the mismatch it was. The whole point is, you didnt have to be smart - if you just paused long enough to let the lemmings run on by, and to take your own look at the data, it then became obviosu that Ohio State was a fraud

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 8, 2007 11:56 PM | Link to this

Grinch:

Alabama ain’t got no truck stops - they were outlawed because of all the Georgia skanks hanging out and hooking in sleeper cabs - all the rubber machines I have seen have been in GA, TN and MS. As for your team talking for you, Tubs is 4-2 against yo coach - got a little catching up to do.

Yet, I digress. Urban is a flash in the pan. Great for him, and Grator nation, that he won a national championship in his second year. They deserved it tonight. By virtue of a missed field goal by USC, they got to this game. Enjoy it Grators - it won’t happen again for a while - the league is too good for you to get back there again for a while.

By Jared

January 8, 2007 11:57 PM | Link to this

1. Hank Aaron
2. Greg Maddux
3. Phil Neikro
4. John Smoltz
5. Chipper Jones
6. Tom Glavine
7. Dale Murphy
8. Andruw Jones
9. Javy Lopez
10. David Justice

David O’Brein, what do you mean Smoltz will probably see this? Has he told you he reads your blog or something?

By mr baseball

January 8, 2007 11:58 PM | Link to this

Too much repetition in Braves top 10 list; about 8 of the 10 are way too obvious. How about a top 10/bottom 10 list of John Schuerholz trades/signings?

Best: Signing Pendleton & Maddux, trades for McGriff & Grissom; Damian Moss for Russ Ortiz (he did win 20 the first year); both Johnny Estrada trades; 3 nothings for Hudson; Marte for Renteria; letting Glavine, Maddux, Ortiz and Wright sign overpriced deals elsewhere; getting Wickman for less than nothing (what the heck was the Indians’ GM thinking?)

Worst: Grissom & Justice for Lofton; Dye for Tucker & Lockhart; signing Albie Lopez; trading for Dan Kolb; Wainwright, Marquis & King for 1 year of J.D. Drew; the deals for post-season killers Reardon & Farnsworth; the fiascos of Brogna/Caminiti & later Jordan/Mondesi; No. 1 — Klesko & Boone for less than zero.

A few bands that haven’t been mentioned yet: Green Day (American Idiot gets them on the list by itself), Offspring, Cracker, Soul Asylum (one CD wonders).

Ought to be in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame: Little Feat, Nick Lowe, Randy Newman, Rickie Lee Jones (every offbeat female singer/songwriter has lifted her delivery).

BOISE STATE NO. 1

By The Grinch

January 9, 2007 12:00 AM | Link to this

Now I have to listen to Gator fans even more than usual…MUCH more than usual…this sucks! Proud of my conference (and this should shut ALL those bloody fool talking heads up, though likely they’ll cite OS’ lay-off), but man, oh man, couldn’t it have been any other SEC team? ANY? AAAAARRRRGGGHHH!!!

By Jared

January 9, 2007 12:06 AM | Link to this

“Here’s my top 4 list of the next Brave’s players sure to bolt the ATL when they become free agents in the future:”

Shows what you know. Andruw Jones will be next.

If the Braves are smart (and they’re probably not), they’d do what the Mets did with Jose Reyes and David Wright and sign McCann, Francoeur, LaRoche (if they want to keep him) and Chuck James (well, James is a stretch) long term now before they become expensive in later years. It’s how the low-budget Devil Rays will keep stars like Carl Crawford and Rocco Baldelli for so long and they’re supposedly getting ready to lock up Scott Kazmir long term too.

But who am I kidding? Smoltz hasn’t even been extended yet. Let him become a free agent in this balloning market, now that’s the way to make sure he retires a Brave, right?

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 9, 2007 12:09 AM | Link to this

Grinch - email me - I don’t have your address on this computer

By The Grinch

January 9, 2007 12:12 AM | Link to this

Scalp, if it wasn’t for GA skanks hookin’ at Bama truckstops I wouldn’t have had half my income for the last couple of years; that ‘ain’t an insult. Thank god for my last ex. I agree, though; there ain’t no new sheriff in town. This conference will be decided every year from now until the hereafter by individual seasons of blood and sweat. Urban Meyer don’t know squat; he’s from Ohio and most recently from Utah. Just like Florida the state; he (it) don’t belong in the south; he(they) haven’t earned it.

By flbravesgirl

January 9, 2007 12:15 AM | Link to this

Wow, somebody peel my dad off of the ceiling. He’s gotta be going nuts right now. Guess he’ll be getting a Nat. Champs shirt for his birthday.

DOB, that’s really cool that someone from the Braves is interested enough in what the fans think to come here.

Nice to see the respect for Avery. It still breaks my heart that his career was cut so short.

By The Grinch

January 9, 2007 12:27 AM | Link to this

FBG, I will forgive you for your dad’s tastes…(in all honesty, my dad can’t stand football in any variety). But only because you’re a chick. :-) And WHY did you have to mention Nat..nat..national…NO! NOOOO! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 12:32 AM | Link to this

Bravesgirl, I got an e-mail from ESPN’s gear store offering UF national championship stuff literally before that montage and credits even rolled on the broadcast….

Hey, I know you all are probably done talking about it by now, but I gotta say, I like the Petrino hire.

In addition to being a brilliant offensive mind by all accounts, he also strikes me as a take-no-prisoners, hard-a#@ sort who doesn’t really care what the media or others think of him. I like those guys, like Parcells and Bobby Knight.

Better to be honest and win than be a phony and concerned with stepping on toes or with your image with the media. Coaches shouldn’t much care what we think, honestly. And the established ones don’t. This guy’s not really established, obviously not at the NFL level, and already he doesn’t care. Good for him.

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 9, 2007 12:48 AM | Link to this

DOB:

I told Grinch this morning in an email, after reading his incessant whining about crappy Falcons’ hires, etc., that I thought Petrino would be good for them. I say this because the guy absolutely knows offense, and is a proven quaterback developer. I’m not going to go back through everybody he has worked with and improved. Suffice to say, everywhere he has been, quarterbacks have gotten better, or much better, under his tutelage. I think he will make a big difference with Vick - give him two years, and he will make look Vick look like an MVP. Grinch - kwitcher b*** and whining - you got a good coach.

By flbravesgirl

January 9, 2007 12:54 AM | Link to this

Be nice, Grinch. Actually, you’d get along fine with my dad. He’s not an obnoxious fan and he respects Georgia (and I have 2 cousins currently attending Georgia, if that helps).

Now I don’t care about football at all, so I don’t know a great deal about Urban Meyer but in the most recent Choptalk there was a small article about him. He was drafted by the Braves and played a couple of minor league seasons for them. So hey, at least he’s a Brave. :-)

By Scalp 'em Braves

January 9, 2007 12:56 AM | Link to this

FBG:

Glad to see you weigh on current issues. Like you, my pop is a Gator - glad he hasn’t called me tonight - I can’t stand Grator fans, but glad he gets to celebrate this win.

Never got your Red Velvet Cake recipe - do me a favor - rather than me reposting my email address here, since you and Grinch communicate, ask him to give you my email address - I reckon he will do me that favor.

On Avery, I agree - the guy was nasty for a couple of years. Don’t know if injuries or his head derailed him. A shame either way.

By dayf

January 9, 2007 12:58 AM | Link to this

No mention of Elvis’ 72nd birthday? Or was that done on the old blog…

By the way, DOB, were you able to check out Psychobilly Freakout, and if so, how’d you like it?

By The Grinch

January 9, 2007 01:05 AM | Link to this

DOB, I assure you the Petrino talk ain’t over after 24 hours…and oddly enough I agree with your assessment.

Scalp, I do appreciate your input during a time of duress (meaningless as it may have been coming from a dude from a state that doesn’t even HAVE a pro football team…yes, I went there). I have done much research, and I am no longer b-ing.

FBG, if your dad’s a Gator fan and he’s not obnoxious, he’s in a class by himself and I would indeed like to meet him. :-)

By Wayne in Utah

January 9, 2007 01:09 AM | Link to this

Scalp em Back in the early 70’s we had Felix Millan, who was know as the “Kitten” Not sure where that came from.

What a game tonight!

My Atlanta Braves top 10 players:

1. Hank
2. Smoltzie (he stayed)
3. Maddux
4. Chipper
5. Neikro (longevity)
6. Andruw
7. Murph
8. Justice
9. Glavine (he didn’t)
10. Woody Woodward (sorry, love the nickname!) (if pressed for another, I would choose Rico Carty (the beeg boy)

John Smoltz, in case you are a blogger Many of us old salty dogs appreciate the integrity and the passion with which you play. Thanks for passing up the huge payday years ago to stay a “Brave” forever.**

By Jared

January 9, 2007 01:10 AM | Link to this

Interesting story today from Dejan at the Post-Gazette.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07009/752357-63.stm

The Pirates’ general manager used to say he wouldn’t trade his young starters for nothing. Now he kind of sounds like he’d do a LaRoche for a starter move.

By Lew

January 9, 2007 01:11 AM | Link to this

DOB-I wasn’t doubting that they might be a decent band, but it is pretty improbable that I would not have even heard of a band that was one of the top ten of the past 25 years.I mean, my CD collection may not be as deversified as yours, but I’m hardly a musical novice, either. Also, I’ve only lived up here for 5 years. I lived in Georgia and Florida for 34 years before Vermont. I guess I’m just not of the generation that considers Dave Grohl an expert on much of anything. I never was much on Grunge and never thought Kurt Cobain was the greatest thing to hit the music scene since Hendrix, either. If I have to listen to a Seattle band while I drink my Starbuck’s, I prefer Soundgarden or Queensryche. I at least had heard of every one else on your list, but I’m afraid the Pixies just hid when I was around. I’ll check them out.

By The Grinch

January 9, 2007 01:13 AM | Link to this

Scalp, I’ll do you that favor in honnor of our 37-15 a*-whippin’ of your team. Never let it be said that I’m not kind for a Grinch.

FBG and all of the blog; I enjoyed Avery’s couple of dominant seasons here as well as I enjoyed just about anyone’s. I really thought he was going to be an integral part of the future. Life’s a beach. Here’s to Poison Avery. (Gulp, gulp).

By flbravesgirl

January 9, 2007 01:20 AM | Link to this

I wondered about it, Scalp ‘em, since I never heard back from you. Must’ve gotten lost somewhere between my computer and yours. I’ll re-send it tomorrow.

I wouldn’t think it was a mental issue for Avery. He seemed pretty fearless. He just had chronic arm problems that apparently weren’t treatable. I hated it because he was really fun to watch.

Saw someone mention McGriff and the fire earlier. I was at that game. Got the ticket stub in my box of Braves’ stuff.

By Wayne in Utah

January 9, 2007 01:26 AM | Link to this

Some other close ones for the top ten:

Denny Lemaster Mike de la Hoz Clete Boyer Eddie Mathews Denis Menke Felipe Alou Dusty Baker Cecil Upshaw Tony Cloninger(what a bat!) Orlando Cepeda Mike Lum Claude Raymond (one of orig Canadians) Chi Chi Oliva Joe Torre Tommie Aaron (RIP) Earl Williams Tony LaRussa (did you know that?) Zoilo Versalles Blue Moon Odom Buzz Capra Johnny Oates (RIP) Jim Bouton Pat Rockett Jeff Burroughs Barry Bonnell Chris Chambliss Al Hrabosky Bruce Benedict (the human sun dial)

just to mention a few of my favorite ex-Braves from yesteryear.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 01:30 AM | Link to this

I know, Lew, just trying to help out. I’ll be you’ll like ‘em if you give ‘ol Black Francis/Frank Black and the gang a listen (the ever widening front man has gone by both names, and his solo stuff is also quite good, including a couple albums by Frank Black and the Catholics). If you come across a used copy of Death to the Pixes (they’re double-CD greatest hits), by all means get it. Just packed wall-to-wall with greatness.

I hate to admit but with all that was going on Monday, including my own physical exam (first in six years), I forgot about The King’s birthday.

TCB and RIP, Mighty E. I’m out.

By Wayne in Utah

January 9, 2007 01:34 AM | Link to this

and how could I have forgotten * Oddibe McDowell??*

By Wayne in Utah

January 9, 2007 01:37 AM | Link to this

or Deion??

By Oregon_Braves

January 9, 2007 02:12 AM | Link to this

Saw the Pixies at Music Midtown a year and a half ago. They were great, but the White Stripes absolutely blew them and everyone else at the fest off the stage. Not really even a huge fan of the Stripes until that moment. Now they are in constant rotation.

By Wayne in Utah

January 9, 2007 02:39 AM | Link to this

I just recently found out that my little league coach, Earl Wooten, passed away last summer. My brother sent me one of his Bowman baseball cards for Christmas. He was from Pelzer, South Carolina. In the 1960’s, he coached us in the little leagues in the Piedmont/Pelzer area. We were thrilled to listed to his stories about playing in the big leagues. He played for parts of two years with the old Washington Senators in 1947 and 1948. Earl Wooten, rest in peace.

By SeattleBrave'sFan

January 9, 2007 02:50 AM | Link to this

DOB, Right now I am listening to a HELMET song on my IPOD as I ponder your list. If you haven’t checked them out then do, not enough strentgh to be on this type of list, but such great song structure and very underrated…Love the PIXIES, most people don’t know the influence they had on the 90’s alternative rock set. Thanks for clarifying your GNR pick, cause yeah 1 album that blistered and set the tone for rock bands after them, but really not much after that. I would finish my list with: the Deftones (one of the more compelling and consistently creative of the 90’s alt-metal bands), Nirvana, Metallica, Pantera, Weezer, Red Hot Chillipeppers, Tool, Alice in Chains, Clutch (another underrated rock band with great blues tinge to it)…Rock on DOB….

By The Grinch

January 9, 2007 03:12 AM | Link to this

Whoa! How did I leave off Pantera? R.I.P., Dimebag Darell. Thanks, SBF; almost committed a crime.

Wayne, my condolences.

G’night, all.

By The Grinch

January 9, 2007 03:17 AM | Link to this

And then I left out an R. Darrell. Must be drunk. Are you talkin’ to me? Are you talkin’ to ME? Walk on home, boy… Yeah…good stuff. “Unsung” is the only song I remember by Helmet. Good one, though. G’night.

By KC

January 9, 2007 08:25 AM | Link to this

Has anyone mentioned Fred McGriff’s absense from DOB’s list?

He played here long enough to get the nod over Javy, didn’t he?

By Shaun

January 9, 2007 08:29 AM | Link to this

Making a list of the top Atlanta Braves is pretty difficult. I mean, you obviously have to have Aaron on top, but after that you could make a lot of different arguments. Niekro gets a lot of credit for being good for so long, but did he make a bigger impact than Glavine or even Smoltz? Dale Murphy had 4-5 amazing seasons in which he was a great hitter and fielder. What about the fact the AJ is probably the greatest outfielder in history and a really good hitter? Here’s my list:

1. Hank Aaron

2. Greg Maddux

3. Chipper Jones

4. Dale Murphy

5. Tom Glavine

6. Andruw Jones

7. Phil Niekro

8. John Smoltz

9. David Justice

10. Javy Lopez

By Dave in Tampa

January 9, 2007 08:36 AM | Link to this

Great list. The only one I would alter would be Smoltz. I would have to move him, somehow, in the top 5.

Great comment about Bon Jovi. You were right on with that comment. Very Cheesy band! Though you could not put them on you list I still have to say Zeppelin and the Braves Rule!

By Hoosier Aaron

January 9, 2007 08:45 AM | Link to this

After reading the lists, I must say that I’m shocked to see what little respect Murph is getting. Did we forget that Murph won 2 MVP Awards in the ’80s (Back-to-Back)? Did we forget that the only player with more homers in the decade of the ’80s than Murph is Hall of Famer Mike Schmidt? Did we forget that the only player in the’80s with more RBI than Murph is Hall of Famer Eddie Murray? Murph had more total bases in the decade of the ’80s than ANYONE. All of this was accomplished on many bad teams - without a CJones or AJones or McGriff hitting in front of him or behind him. He won a few Gold Gloves as well. In terms of character he stands alone. Only Hank should be in front of Murph in terms of greatness as an Atlanta Brave. Niekro #3,Smoltz is #4. Chipper #5, Andruw #6, Glavine #7, Maddux #8.

By KC

January 9, 2007 08:51 AM | Link to this

Here’s my take:

1 – Hank Aaron

2 – Greg Maddux

3 – Chipper Jones

4 – Dale Murphy

5 – John Smoltz

6 – Tom Glavine

7 – Andruw Jones

8 – Phil Niekro

9 – David Justice

10 – Fred McGriff

By Stinky

January 9, 2007 08:54 AM | Link to this

On the day of football’s national championship and the announcement of Bobby Petrino as new Falcons coach, the biggest story nonetheless, at least to me, was R.E.M.’s election into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Damn straight.

No wonder they won’t let him vote for the baseball HOF.

By Shaun

January 9, 2007 09:08 AM | Link to this

Hoosier Aaron,

I think Maddux has to be up there—top two or three. One of the top 5-10 pitchers of all time and he had his best seasons in Atlanta. Murph was great but he wasn’t one of the top 5-10 at his position all time.

By Carroll

January 9, 2007 09:16 AM | Link to this

Hey DOB, KC, Grinch, Robert (JITB), et al: I thought I’d post this about the Falcoons here so we can have a discussion about it rather than it just getting lost in the nonsense over in the falcons blog. WHat do you guys think of Petrino? My concern is that (1)few college coaches have EVER had success in the NFL outside of Jimmy Johnson and maybe Jon Gruden—was he a colege coach? (2) College coaches aside, offensive-minded coaches rarely seem to do well in the NFL—see Mike Martz who destroyed the greatest show on turf after taking over as HC; Marty Morninwhig in Detroit, Norv Turner, etc, etc, etc.

Bottom line, I don’t totally hate the move, but I just wish they would have gone after a protege of a winning NFL administration like an assistant of Belicek, Parcells, Holmgren, etc. If you look at the successful franchises over the last 2 decades or so, a lot of the coaches have been offspring of 2 primary administrations: Parcells (whos offspring includes Belicek, Mangini, etc), and Bill Walsh (whos offspring include the likes of Shanahan, Holmgren, Mariucci, Andy Reed, etc etc).

By SeattleBrave'sFan

January 9, 2007 09:48 AM | Link to this

Grinch, glad to see a fellow Pantera listener out there. Dimebag was one of a kind, he is missed. HELMET had a nice little 3 album run in its’ first incarnation with Meantime , Betty and Aftertaste from ‘92 to’97, still around with many lineup changes, but those were the best, check em out if you like Unsung. By the way I have to agree with Hoosier Aaron with respect to Murphy, not enough respect here. I grew up in Atlanta around his heyday and there was no better person and his stats speak for themselves. No way he is low on a list of 10 that includes Justice and Javy, it’s just not right.

By Brady

January 9, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this

Hey DOB, I just wanted to know want song is played at Turner Field when Francour hits a homerun. I just watch the games on TV, and I can only here bits and pieces of it. Thanks.

I loved the article.

Go Braves in ‘07!

By Shaun

January 9, 2007 10:59 AM | Link to this

SeattleBrave’sFan,

I think O’Brien is giving a lot of credit to longevity. I may have to rethink my list. Think about it, Glavine is considered a sure Hall of Famer. Murphy and Neikro are/were considered borderline. Chipper is a probable. Same with Andruw. But Chipper may get an edge over Glavine because he’s had more really good/great seasons as a Brave and he’s an everyday player. Maddux and Aaron are in a class by themselves.

My revised list:

1. Aaron

2. Maddux

3. Chipper

4. Glavine

5. Murphy

6. Niekro

7. Andruw

8. Smoltz

9. Justice

10. Javy Lopez

6-8 is tough. You could order them in any way. I’m confident in my top five, though you could argue 3-5.

I like Lopez on the list, although some may argue. Lopez was clearly the second-best hitting catcher in the NL for most of Mike Piazza’s career. And it’s tougher to be an impact offensive player at that position.

Also, for the folks who want to argue against Justice, he ranks 8th on the Atlanta career list in OPS adjusted for league and park, he ranks 10th in OPS, and he hit under .270 only twice in 6 full seasons with the Braves.

By Scott Case

January 9, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

Top Ten Braves 1. Raphael Ramirez 2. Dan Kolb 3. Terry Forster 4. Zane Smith 5. Claudell Washington 6. Paul Assenmacher 7. Jeff Treadway 8. Gerronimo Berroa 9. Ray King 10. Ken Oberkfell

Top Ten Bands Last 25 years. 1. GG Allin and The Murder Junkies (obviously) 2. 311 3. L7 4. Nelson 5. Creed 6. Good Charlotte 7. Dashboard Confessional 8. Limp Bizkit 9. Right Said Fred 10. General Patton and The Unicorns( the gretaest band ever)

By BigBoi

January 9, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

My top ten is: 1. Chris Seelbach 2. Wonderful Monds 3. Cory Aldridge 4. A.J. Zapp 5. John LeRoy 6. Robbie Bell 7. Adam Johnson 8. Jaime Arnold 9. Geronimo Berroa 10. Glenn Williams

By BamaBrave

January 9, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

DOB…your Braves list is hard to argue against, and simply puts me in a bad mood when you realize that seven of these guys played together at the same time…sigh… Whadda team we had…will those days ever return?

And, to weigh in musically…no “Top” list is complete without Radiohead holding a prominent position.

By Rick

January 9, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this

How can you not have U2, Aerosmith, and Metallica on your list?

By Scott Case

January 9, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this

Give some props to Atlanta’s rock bands Sector Nine (sold out the tabernacle three nights in a row) and Mastodon (nominated for a grammy) Both have Shiloh High school ties just like David Pollock and Diana whatever her name is from Idol. Atlanta has more than hip hop. Drive By Truckers are kind of from here but not really.

By dougp

January 9, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this

Got a question for you DOB. I see Neil Young and Crazy Horse just released a live album from the Fillmore. Have you heard it? Just wondering because I need to replace my Live Rust CD and was wondering if the Fillmore Album was any better, or at least has some different offerings. Anyways just wondering and know you like Neil too. Rock on, and when there is an artists list, we need to include Stevie Ray Vaughn.

By Scott Case

January 9, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

Aerosmith is not on the list because you can punish bands that were great in the past for thier sins of today

By Car3boogie

January 9, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

Aaron Murph Chipper Andrew Smoltz Niekro Ernie Johnson Maddux Glavine Justice

No Braves list is complete without Ernie Johnson

By B***

January 9, 2007 11:30 AM | Link to this

Furman Bisher-where are you?…

By TennesseePaul

January 9, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this

Lew: Pixies were very under the radar. But highly influential. You can put them in today and they sound so fresh, as if they are a new band on the scene. Great band. It’s hard for me to pick 1 album of theirs that’d I want over the rest, but I would have to lean towards Bosanova. Something about that album; great melodies on punk riffs. Surfer Rosa is a great one too. They’re all great. Do Little has some fabulous cuts. Alright that’s it. I’m putting them on…

By Odoriferous

January 9, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

Does anyone know where to find the baseball blog?

By Carroll

January 9, 2007 11:36 AM | Link to this

BigBoi: Actually, Geronamo Berroa turned out to be a pretty good player for Oakland after he left Atl. He was about the equivalent of a Brian Jordan. I would consider replacing him on your list with maybe Jimmy Kremers? Or what about that wild “closer” we had in like 88-89…huge guy, wore goggle glasses. Man he was terrible but I loved him.

By Noah B

January 9, 2007 11:44 AM | Link to this

How has noone said the BLACK CROWES or WIDESPREAD PANIC! hell they just retired a widespread panic jersey at phillips arean with the number 15 on it for selling out there new years show adn the two shows leading up to it 15 years in a row!

By TopTen

January 9, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Dan Kolb, Chris Reitsma, Albie Lopez, Raul Mondesi, Jose Hernandez, BRIAN JORDAN, Todd Pratt, Robert Fick, Tim Spooneybarger, & Quilvio Veras.

By dougp

January 9, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this

DOB, forget the Neil Young question I just asked. I read a few reveiws about the Fillmore album and decided against it. Just bought Live Rust and Rust Never Sleeps from Amazon for same price as the Fillmore, and even got free shipping. I wish I could just convert all the old albums to cds or even mp3s, anyone know the easiest and least expensive way to do that.

By texbravesfan

January 9, 2007 11:59 AM | Link to this

Regarding Jared’s post, I am wondering if Littlefield would then do a deal of LaRoche for Duke. Then in turn we could then ship James, Salty, and Escobar for Baldeli or Crawford since the Rays were on high on James. That would leave us with a pitching staff of Smoltz, Hudson, Hampton, Duke, and Davies which sounds like a good staff especially with Duke being the 4th starter. And we would get the LF and lead off combo we have needed. Since Furcal became our lead off in 2000, we havent won a playoff series which shows that we need a true lead off to win important games. Just a thought.

By D Rock in Scotland

January 9, 2007 12:28 PM | Link to this

Good music list, but I’d remove Jane’s Addiction and GnR, and put in Yo La Tengo and Radiohead.

You gotta put Dave Justice on the top 10 list as well. He won us that World Series.

By Paul

January 9, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

If you manage to acquire Duke (which I don’t see the Pirates doing) in a deal, why would you trade James? You have two solid (maybe even aces) cheap pitchers for many years to come. In place of Adam, you could give Thorman a look and maybe even Salty. The Rays are not going to trade Crawford, and I would never give up James for Baldelli.

By Bryan

January 9, 2007 12:38 PM | Link to this

Dave, quick question.

The Darryl Ward story of the off season. Do you think they held off giving him a few mil because of the situation with Glavine and the possibility of bringing on a bigger contract in a trade?

It sucks we didn’t get him - and I think if he had waited until after the winter meetings JS would have tossed him a good offer now that things have settled down.

I understand that 80 mil budget is a realistic budget - but its these small signings that are going to be influenced more than the big ones - that and not being able to sign our youngsters … .

Hey, have you checked out Lupe Fiasco? Good good good hip-hop. Check out Flagpole’s (like the Athens mag) top 10 list - national and international - its got some GREAT albums and some useful reviews.

Peace

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 12:41 PM | Link to this

D Rock, you really in Scotland?

I could be persuaded to remove GnR on a future list, but not Jane’s Addiction. No way. Do love Yo La Tengo and loved Radiohead’s first four LPs, up until the last couple; I like Thom York’s solo album much more more than their last group effort.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

Bryan, I’m pretty certain they could still have signed Ward after the Glavine thing fell apart, and it probably wouldn’t have taken much more than 1 mill (he signed with Cubs for slightly more than that, after saying he wanted to return to Braves but getting low-balled, basically).

I agree that’s a bad move this winter, letting him go.

I like that Lupe Fiasco stuff, and just ordered the CD along with a few others from BMG club.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

DougP, one of our other regulars (sorry, but I forget who) has one of these new turntables that has the ability to turn albums directly into MP3 files, easy as that, and he says it works amazingly well, and cost only about $150. I think you can get ‘em at a lot of places, I saw it advertised at Restoration Hardware, I believe. But not sure. Hopefully he’ll see this and reply.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

Brady, I think it’s the French National Anthem that’s played when Francoeur homers (just kidding … wanted to get a rise from some folks who don’t like his nickname). Actually, I can’t think of what is played when he hits one. I should know it, but don’t. Is it something from The Natural, something like that? Not sure….

Scott Case, had to smile at your list _ GG Allin. Also, had completely forgotten L7 _ did those women rock, or what? I had one of their albums, the one that sold a few copies, and played it all the time for a while.

By Matthew

January 9, 2007 01:08 PM | Link to this

Part of me wants the deal with Pittsburgh to be done, not because I don’t like Laroche, but because ATL still has a couple of holes to fill. If they offered Gonzales, Duffy, and Maholm or Duke, I’d be willing to part with Laroche and Diaz or Langerhans, plus a prospect. We have serviceable depth in the outfield, and according to the scouts, Thorman can be a serviceable 1B. I’d rather see us give up power for great pitching. It’s just as sweet to win 2-1 as it is to win 10-9.

With that said, I am content to go into 2007 the way we are with one exception. We need another lefty in the pen. Schowenweis (sp) is still available, and I’m sure others as well (Guardado might be affordable, but he’s been hurt). McBride is a good young pitcher, and I’d hate to see him overused. Other than that, KJ or Prado would be fine at 2B, Woodward and Aybar will be good backups, and Renteria or KJ can lead off.

JS said it himself, that pitching is what made the streak (and the title) possible, and pitching will carry us back.

DOB, I listened to some sample clips from Cash’s last recording American V. All I can say is DANG. What a powerful voice and powerful songs, even when he was at death’s door.

Go Braves!

By snowball's chance

January 9, 2007 01:11 PM | Link to this

Bunch of good posts here. Smoltz, Chipper, and Murph have to be at the top for being great and loyal.Justice for finally pushing the Braves over the top in Post season. Terry Pendleton for showing a winning attitude to a young team. Ralph Garr, who I have never heard of, But anyone who won a batting title, Cy Young or MVP Belongs on the list. I know I haven’t put them in order but it is like someone asking you who your favorite child is.

Someone suggested Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers for inclusion. I would agree but I think they were a little early for this list. I would include Steve Earle and the Dukes though they may be on the cusp,too. As an old fart I’m just happy that I have a few of DOB’s top ten on my Ipod. The Waterboys are my favorite on the list. I’m not sure if they belong as a great band because they were more of Mike Scott’s vision and I’m not sure if the personnel didn’t change to suit that vision.

By beachcomber

January 9, 2007 01:19 PM | Link to this

DOB - Absolutely great post! I’ll have to do as you do on the HOF and withhhold by votes on bands as I am of the “America’s Band” era - the Beach Boys to you young folks. I think I’d have to agree with most of your Braves names but somewhere we have to have our double play combo from the glory years - Blauser and Lemke. Not roto league studs, but particularly in the case of Lemke the heart and soul of those great ‘90’s teams. Oops soory, just saw your last post on the Ion turntable - highly recommend it. Got mine at Best Buy (on line) understand from some others who have tried to get one recently they pretty much sold out during the holidays but imagine they will be back in stock soon. Doug P. - if there are any specifics you want - post them.

By MacCat

January 9, 2007 01:32 PM | Link to this

1. Hank
2. Maddux
3. Smoltz
4. Neikro
5. Garr
6. Chipper
7. Andruw
8. Murphy
9. Rick Mahler
10. Hubbard

By Shaun

January 9, 2007 01:34 PM | Link to this

Bryan and O’Brien,

I guess the Braves figure they have Thorman and Langerhans as solid lefty bats off the bench for much cheaper than Ward. Plus both are better defensive options.

Thorman probably takes the roll of lefty pinch-hitter full time. Good choice, in my opinion, considering Ward is 31. Thorman is 24 and probably makes, what, a quarter of what Ward makes?

Thorman has nothing left to prove in the minors. Here are his minor league averages: .276 AVG/.342 OBP/.452 SLG. He’s ready to be a major leaguer.

By Kieran from Long Island

January 9, 2007 01:39 PM | Link to this

Leaving Metallica off of that list is a travesty. It shows you how subjective music truely is if Metallica, Pearl Jam, and Alice in Chains can be left off for some of the trendy pretentious bands you chose, ie the Pixes, pauges, and water boys. I understand that the Pixies have been influential and have lead towards the development of many bands, but There is no way you can sit there and tell me that Guns and Roses has done more for music in the past 25 years then Metallica has. Metallica is a very clearly more talented, structured, and deep band then Guns and Roses is, I mean c’mon dude. And Alice in Chains laid the entire groundwork for modern rock bands such as Staind, Godsmack, Disturbed, Nickelback, etc (Though I suppose you can argue that that was a disservice to the msuic industry.)

and no Ozzy? I know Black Sabbath was pre ‘82 but Ozzy and Randy Rhodes man, maybe not top 10, but deserve at least honarable mention.

By joe

January 9, 2007 01:41 PM | Link to this

i just heard toronto was looking for pitching and shopping rios. could we possible move davis and someone else young and grab rios. if andruw does leave then you still have either rios or franc. to play center next year and rios can lead off. But then we need a new fifth starter so i dont know.

By flbravesgirl

January 9, 2007 01:42 PM | Link to this

Scalp ‘em, I sent the Red Velvet recipe again (with an assist from Grinch).

Brady, I haven’t noticed them playing anything different for a Francoeur homer. They play a little snippet of music in the stadium along with a siren and fireworks when any Brave homers. When we see the replay at the end of the inning on TV, they usually play “Gone”. Don’t know the singer (country’s not my thing, sorry).

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 01:47 PM | Link to this

Shaun _ you’re right, Thorman has nothing more to prove in the minors. But he has something to prove in the majors, including whether he can hit coming off the bench, which ain’t easy. And I’m just saying, it would have been nice to have a veteran pinch-hitter like Ward, if you could’ve got him for just over a mill….

On this date in history: 1989, Johnny Bench and Carl Yastrzemski are elected to the Hall of Fame. Bench is named on 96.4% of the ballots, making Ty Cobb and Hank Aaron the only players to receive a higher percentage….

DougP _ how ‘bout that for response? Took 26 minutes for Beachcomber to weigh in on the Ion turntable (his post is a few above here, if you missed it) that he bought at Best Buy….

Snowball’s chance, isn’t the Waterboys stuff just as powerful today, just as soaring and gorgeous, as it was when released? Nobody sounds quite like them, before or since….

Matthew, if you love that last Cash American Recordings album, you should consider getting the Unearthed box set. Cost you $50 or more, but man, it’s so packed with great music, plus a booklet on The Man. So many brilliant artists ang with him on that box set, many going to his house in Tennessee to sing with him in the little studio when he was too ill to travel. Raw, emotional stuff, most of it. All of it great….

By Josh C

January 9, 2007 01:53 PM | Link to this

Gone like a freight train, gone like yesterday, gone like a soldier in the Civil War, bang bang. True musical genius at work…sarcasm…Montgomery Gentry. And did someone pay homage to Charlie Kerfeld earlier? There’s a name to forget…

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 01:53 PM | Link to this

Kieran, to call the Pixies, Pogues and Waterboys pretentious or trendy is, well, sorry, but entirely innacurate. Say you don’t like ‘em, they stink, whatever, but your description has absolutely nothing to do with any of those bands. Do some research, bro.

And for the record, I love Metallica. Ozzy and Sabbath were big WAY before the 1982 time frame (that’s the whole purpose of the exercise, bands that got big in last 25 years; otherwise, Led Zep, the Clash, Stones, Beatles, the Who, etc, are going to fill most of the top 10. Do you not understand what we were doing? Top 10 of the past 25 years).

Geez, man, Black Sabbath (self-titled CD) came out in 1970, Paranoid and Masters of Reality in 1971. I didnt’ say best bands of the past 50 freakin’ years).

By dougp

January 9, 2007 01:56 PM | Link to this

Here is the problem with us old timers. When cds came out we didn’t run right out and buy one. I was still buying lps. Once it became obvious that cds were the way to go, we went out and bought the cd player, and when new music came out we bought the cd. Then you have to start replacing your favorite albums on cd.

Now the technology is there to transfer the lps to cd, but is it cheaper to transfer the old albums to cd, or to just purchase the cds. With the new ability to make the cds just recently coming out, I have already replaced most of the must have albums.

The ones I want to transfer are the Judas Priest British Steel’s of the world. I just want to hear it again, not necesarily pay $10 to buy the thing all over again.

Ive seen this thing that burns cds right from the albums, but isn’t there a conection or software out there to get them on your computer??? I would really rather have them on my mp3 player than cd anyways.

Sorry if this took too long, but I had to get that off my chest and this seemed like a good time to do it.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 02:02 PM | Link to this

Kieran, it’s also just MY opinion. How can you say one man’s opinion is wrong? That’s silly. Some people would (and did) put Death Cab for Cutie in their top 10. Are they “wrong” because they don’t like heavy metal and like emo rock, or alternative rock, or whatever? How ‘bout if somebody had New Order?

Different tastes, man. Different tastes. If the list had been 15, I definitely would have had Metallica on mine, along with Radiohead, Drive-By Truckers and probably Morphine and Social Distortion.

So, give me your top 15 _ but only bands (not solo artists) who emerged in the past 25 years?

The Pogues, trendy? First time I’ve ever, under any circumstances, heard arguably the hardest-rockin’ Irish band in history, with one of the greatest songwriters (Shane MacGowan), described as trendy or pretentious.

By the way, they sure never did a reality show with their kids on MTV when they got old.

By Thrillhouse44

January 9, 2007 02:06 PM | Link to this

DOB, Where would Ron Gant fall in your list of All Time Braves? I’d have to add Phish to your list of bands.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 02:06 PM | Link to this

THIS JUST IN:

No surprises on the BBWAA election results _ Ripken and Gwynn are in _ other than perhaps the incredibly high number of votes that Ripken received. Murph got less than 10 percent this time.

Here’s the full text of the release I just got from BBWAA:

Cal Ripken, holder of one of baseball’s most cherished records, and Tony Gwynn, among the game’s most prolific hitters, were elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame by the Baseball Writers’ Association of America in balloting verified by Ernst & Young. They will be inducted into the Hall July 29 at the Clark Sports Center in Cooperstown, N.Y.

A record 545 ballots, including two blanks, were cast by BBWAA members with 10 or more consecutive years’ service, eclipsing by 25 the previous mark of 2006 when Bruce Sutter was elected. Players must be named on 75 percent of ballots submitted to gain election. This year, 409 votes were needed.

Ripken established a record by being named on 537 ballots, breaking the previous mark of 491 by Nolan Ryan in 1999. Ripken’s percentage of 98.53 percent is the third highest in the history of BBWAA balloting behind Tom Seaver (98.83 in 1992) and Ryan (98.79 in 1999). Gwynn’s percentage of 97.6 based on 532 votes ranks seventh all-time. Their election brings to 280 the number of elected members of the Hall. Of that total, 198 are former major leaguers, of which 105 have been through the BBWAA.

Ripken’s most prestigious feat was playing in 2,632 consecutive games. He spent all 21 of his seasons in the majors with the Baltimore Orioles, mostly at shortstop and later at third base. Ripken was a 19-time All-Star, played in a record 16 consecutive All-Star Games and twice the game’s MVP. He is the all-time All-Star vote leader with more than 36 million votes. Ripken was the American League Rookie of the Year in 1982 and the Most Valuable Player the following year when Baltimore won its last World Series. He won a second MVP Award in 1991 by which time he was on his way to such career numbers as 3,184 hits (14th), 603 doubles (13th), 431 home runs (35th), 1,695 RBI (20th), 3,001 games (8th), 11,551 at-bats (4th) and 127 sacrifice flies (2nd). He was a two-time Gold Glove winner, an eight-time Silver Slugger and hit .338 in 28 postseason games.

Gwynn played his entire major-league career (20 seasons) with the San Diego Padres. The 15-time All-Star had a .338 career batting average, the 20th highest in history, with 3,141 hits (18th), of which 2,378 were singles (9th). Gwynn hit over .300 every season except his rookie year of 1982 when he hit .289. His career-high .394 average in 1994 is the highest in the majors in the 65 years since Ted Williams was the last player to bat over .400 (.406). In addition to winning eight NL batting crowns, Gwynn had five 200-hit seasons, led the league in hits seven times, batted .371 in his two World Series and earned five Gold Gloves for fielding his position in right field to go with his seven Silver Slugger Awards for offense.

Relief pitcher Rich “Goose” Gossage fell 21 votes shy of election with 388 (71.2%). The only other players receiving more than half the vote were outfielders Jim Rice with 346 (63.5%) and Andre Dawson with 309 (56.7%).

Of the 15 players other than Gwynn and Ripken on the ballot for the first time, only two received sufficient support to remain in consideration, first baseman Mark McGwire and outfielder-designated hitter Harold Baines. Players must be listed on five percent of the ballots (28 this year) to stay on the ballot for up to 15 years. McGwire had 128 votes (23.5%) and Baines 29 (5.3%).

In his 15th and final year on the ballot, Steve Garvey got 115 votes (21.1%). Also dropping off the ballot in his second year was pitcher Orel Hershiser (4.4%). Other holdovers who will remain on the ballot are Bert Blyleven (47.7%), Lee Smith (39.8%), Jack Morris (37.1%), Tommy John (22.9%), Dave Concepcion (13.6%), Alan Trammell (13.4%), Dave Parker (11.4%), Don Mattingly (9.9%) and Dale Murphy (9.2%).

By Shaun

January 9, 2007 02:09 PM | Link to this

O’Brien,

Payroll efficiency is pretty important. Why waste money on a veteran backup when Thorman is likely to be an adequate one. Thorman can hit. If you can hit, you can hit. If it looks like an otherwise good hitter “can’t handle” pinch-hitting, it’s probably because of the small sample of AB’s involved in pinch-hitting.

I bet if you looked at most hitters with a significant number of at-bats as a pinch-hitter and as a regular, their stats are pretty similar (if everything else is reasonable equal). Well you may have to adjust for the fact that pinch-hitting is just tougher in general. But I’m sure pinch-hitting numbers are fairly close to regular numbers for most hitters.

Anyway, I think the Braves are just fine with Thorman instead of Ward and using that extra money elsewhere—perhaps on a better regular player or pitcher.

By Carroll

January 9, 2007 02:09 PM | Link to this

If some writers opted not to vote McGwire in to the HOF to make a statement about moral terpitude, cheating, etc, then those same voters should have also voted for Dale Murphy to make the statement that good moral character and integrity does matter!

By snowball's chance

January 9, 2007 02:17 PM | Link to this

dougp, as a fellow oldtimer I agree with you. I have been meaning to hook up my turntable to my computer. From what I’ve read If you have a soundcard and most computers do you can tie your stereo equipment into your computer. If you already have a decent turntable why buy another. The easy way probably is the Ion if you have a USB connection. The Ion may have some software to clean up pops and hiss. I’m not sure. I retired yesterday (YES!) so I am going to look into this more. I had a cd burner that was part of my components but it was expensive.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 02:18 PM | Link to this

Shaun, it’s not “wasting” money to spend $1 mill or thereabouts on a guy who led the majors in pinch hits last season, including four pinch-hit homers. There’s a reason that championship teams often have veterans on their bench, a guy like Spiezio with the Cards, for instance. Because they have a penchant for big hits in clutch situations. You oversimplify when you say, “if you can hit, you can hit,” as though situations, pressure, getting one at-bat in three days instead of four or five at-bats every day, makes little or no difference. Ask Terry Pendleton. Ask Chipper. Ask any veteran how much harder it is to pinch-hit than to play every day.

Sorry, but I’ll take their opinions, what I’ve been told repeatedly by guys like that through the years, over yours. Nothing personal.

And I’d agree with you that it’d be better to spend the money elsewhere _ IF we were talking about a difference of a couple or three mill. But we’re talking about $600,000 or so, the difference in what Thorman and Ward will make in 2007 (just using Thorman as example, since you named him).

That’s a pittance in today’s game. You can barely get a crappy veteran reliever for that much money.

By 3trees

January 9, 2007 02:20 PM | Link to this

Cool and fun topic.

Hank first and foremost. I’d agree with most here in the general makeup of the list. Nice nod to Ralph Garr and I also like the Avery mention.

On bands - Definitely the Mats, Pixies, REM but I never got into AIC and could never stand to hear Axl sing(?), but Slash can Play!!. Attitude AND chops. One band I don’t think has been mentioned is Los Lobos. Maybe the songwritng is quite as good, but what a group! From rancheros to psychedelia in the same set. And David Hidalgo is the best multi instrument guy around. Also a nod to Camper Van Beethoven/Cracker. They were fun for a while. Not sure if you consider Robyn Hitchcock a solo or not, but maybe the Soft Boys?

Perhaps off base, but I just got turned onto Darrell Scott’s Live in NC. This guy can sing, write and PLAY! Does a beautiful version of “Folsom Prison” that moves right into “White Freightliner Blues” and almost the best verison of “I Still Miss Someone” I’ve heard - almost.

Peace

By TLJ

January 9, 2007 02:29 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure if Littlefield would trade Duke even up for LaRoche but as a Braves fan I wouldn’t do it. Why trade an everday player who can hit 35 HR, drive in over 100 runs and play gold glove defense for a pitcher who will pitch on every 5 th day? It would have to be a very good pitcher which Duke isn’t at this stage of his career. I agree with an earlier post with the Braves receiving Gonzalez, Duffy abd one of their starters. Unfortunately it’s not going to happen.

Unless someone is willing to overpay for LaRoche I think we should keep him and see how the season goes. We have a good group of pitchers and a good offense. I think KJ will will work out at 2b and will be okay as the leadoff hitter.

Regarding that turkey that referred to LaRoche as a platoon player, all I can say 32 HR and 90 RBI is a heck of a platoon player. Imagine what he would do if he played regularly.

By Shaun

January 9, 2007 02:38 PM | Link to this

O’Brien,

I’ll have to look at the numbers. I trust the number over what Chipper or Pendleton say. And from the little I’ve read, I think most pinch-hitters put up about the same numbers as their everyday stats.

By David

January 9, 2007 02:39 PM | Link to this

1. 311
2. Outkast
3. Radiohead
4. The Smashing Pumpkins
5. Stone Temple Pilots
6. Dave Matthews Band
7. Incubus
8. The Roots
9. RHCP 10.Soundgarden

…yep i pretty much just listed my favorite bands and put truth about where they truely stand out in music history aside.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 02:42 PM | Link to this

3Trees, great call on Los Lobos. Another I’d overlooked. They’d be in my top 25 of the past 25, for sure. Alice in Chains and Soundgarden, too (you don’t like AIC, huh? How ‘bout Screaming Trees, from that same era, with Mark Lanegan’s great voice and those ferocious guitars?)

Soft Boys were already big (at least in some circles) by ‘82; the Can Of Bees album came out in 1979, and Underwater Moonlight (I’ve got that one; really good) came out in 1980.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 02:45 PM | Link to this

David, I like almost everything on your list, a lot. If I’d opened my own list to hip-hop, I’d have P.E. and Outkast in my top 25, for sure, and Roots pretty close.

Stone Temple Pilots … another overlooked gem of a band.

By Shaun

January 9, 2007 02:53 PM | Link to this

O’Brien,

Yes, we would expect Thorman’s numbers to go down when pinch-hitting because based on what I’ve read everyone’s numbers go down when pinch-hitting. But we also shouldn’t expect Ward to repeat his remarkable 2006 performance. Ward hit way over his head and only came to the plate 150 times all season. We shouldn’t look at Ward’s 2006 numbers and conclude he will be better than Thorman in ‘07. What are Ward’s career pinch-hitting numbers and overall numbers?

In 2005 pinch-hitters hit .228/.306/.336. Those same players hit .254/.319/.395 as regulars, according to this article: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5404

So Thorman is likely to be better than Ward in ‘07 considering Thorman is probably a better hitter than Ward at this point in their careers.

By jsizzle

January 9, 2007 02:59 PM | Link to this

I was thinking of putting together a top 10 music list, but then I remembered that most of the tunes of the last 25 years has sucked it big time.

Give me the Dead and some Led and I’m straight. You somehow managed to leave off the best band in the last 25 years though. Where’s Phish?!! And don’t tell me it’s not rock n’ roll…

By SeattleBrave'sFan

January 9, 2007 03:06 PM | Link to this

DOB…If you like Mark Lanegan’s voice check out some of the guest vocalist work he did with Queens of the Stone Age on their earlier albums (another underrated band that was doing something different with rock in the late 90’s early 2000’s.) The list tends to honor bands that have shown some longevity i.e. bands from the 80’s and so forth, although many early 90’s bands have been noted (which of course is what this list is all about) but what about a future list say we are in 2015 and looking back…what are some favorites from the 90’s and current that are showing to be ground breaking (i.e. Pixies) or having the chops to have longevity (i.e. Metallica)…Figured I could put a little twist out there…

By ernesto

January 9, 2007 03:06 PM | Link to this

DOB good list, but while they are all quality bands (and I just played Fisherman’s Blues for my wife last weekend - her fist time hearing it) I don’t think you could say the Waterboys or Wilco, both great bands, influenced the whole direction of music like Nirvana, the Smiths, Rem, Pixies, Jane’s, etc.

That being said you’ve got to have the Peppers on there, and Rage against the machine.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 03:07 PM | Link to this

Shaun, your argument is flawed by the simple fact that is my point to begin with: Players, or many players, learn to pinch-hit as they get further along in their careers, sometimes after coming to realization they are no longer every-day players, or whatever. In Ward’s case, he acknowledged he still preferred to play a position, but that he had finally gotten comfortable with pinch-hitting last year _ and not until last year.

Said he struggled trying to figure it out for a long time, how to not press even though you’re getting only one at-bat perhaps every two or three days, and often in high-pressure situations.

You can drop the statistical debate with me Shaun. You’re coming at it like an academician would, or a sabermetrics person, and that’s totally out the window in this very specialized pursuit that is pinch-hitting. i’m telling you what countless, and I mean countless, players, coaches and managers have told me, about the difficulty of pinch-hitting and how rare it was that Wilson Betemit, for instance, learned to do it at a young age, and you’re going to, as usual, sit here and tell me that I should listen to you and all the stat guys instead of those who actually play and coach the game.

Sorry, not buying. But feel free to argue the point with someone else. I know what the people who play the game tell me. I’ll stick with that, because it happens to coincide with what I’ve seen it with my own eyes. Don’t give me anymore stats I don’t need to see. Thanks.

By SeattleBrave'sFan

January 9, 2007 03:07 PM | Link to this

DOB…If you like Mark Lanegan’s voice check out some of the guest vocalist work he did with Queens of the Stone Age on their earlier albums (another underrated band that was doing something different with rock in the late 90’s early 2000’s.) The list tends to honor bands that have shown some longevity i.e. bands from the 80’s and so forth, although many early 90’s bands have been noted (which of course is what this list is all about) but what about a future list say we are in 2015 and looking back…what are some favorites from the 90’s (many have been mentioned AIC, Pearl Jam and such) and current that are showing to be ground breaking (i.e. Pixies) or having the chops to have longevity (i.e. Metallica)…Figured I could put a little twist out there…

By David-ATL14

January 9, 2007 03:08 PM | Link to this

DOB you must have missed the memo stating that Shaun and his interpatation of the numbers and his incessant rants from Joe Sheehan, actually know more about the game than the mere players who play.

Just the typical misguided arrogance of the stat head. Laughable on one count, truly sad on various other counts.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 03:09 PM | Link to this

jsizzle, man could subsist on Led Zeppelin alone for quite a while, I agree. I consider them the greatest straight-ahead hard rock band ever.

Phish ain’t on my list because it’s my list and I’m not that into the jam bands. Sorry, bro. I know many, many people are.

By BamaBrave

January 9, 2007 03:11 PM | Link to this

Roger that… STP was fantastic. Scott Weiland was my kind of freak…

By Warren Haynes For President

January 9, 2007 03:13 PM | Link to this

Two words:

Gov’t Mule!!!

By Kieran from Long Island

January 9, 2007 03:14 PM | Link to this

Its not that the bands sounds or existences are trendy or pretentious I said that music critics often tend to be trendy and pretentious and goes with such names in order to make their lists seems as if they’re more educated. My point simply is that Pearl jam and Metallica can’t be ifnored over the past 25 years. I also identified that fact that Sabbath was way before the timeline of this argument,

Ozzy Osbourne’s first solo release was in 1980, 2 years before the cut off, so I guess I was wrong in mentioning him, but how can his body of work be ignored if the majority of his illustrious solo career exists within the Parameter of the last 25 years? Thats 12 albums.

I understand that on this forum you often are forced to go into defensive mode and fight off the heathens who nitpick your every sentance, I think you do a good job, but lists were meant to be attacked, so I must.

Especially when you dis Metallica with an omission

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 03:14 PM | Link to this

SHAUN, just saw this line from your earlier post: “I�ll have to look at the numbers. I trust the number over what Chipper or Pendleton say.”

Therein lies the root of many arguments you have with other posters. While stats are certainly critically important in evaluating players, you take that stat-geek mentality too far, in that you think stats can tell you the whole story in virtually all matters. They can’t.

You’d rely more on guys with computers telling you that if you can hit you can hit, pinch-hitting or otherwise, whereas I would weigh that against what I’m told by folks who’ve actually practiced the art, and/or played with or coached others who’ve practiced the art, of hitting and pinch-hitting _ not just T.P. or Chipper (I used their names because they’re the most recent ones that come to mind), but literally dozens if not hundreds of players over the past 12 years have told me that.

You need to listen carefully sometimes to people who’ve actually done it, not rely entirely on people who statistically analyze the people who’ve done it.

By Brady

January 9, 2007 03:18 PM | Link to this

Thanks flbraves girl…I think that is it. It was just for curiousity anyways.

1. Aaron
2. Maddux
3. Niekro
4. Chipper
5. Smoltz
6. Andruw
7. Glavine
8. Murphy
9. Justice
10. Javy

Of course, I might be too young to remember some guys during the 70’s and early 80’s.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 03:22 PM | Link to this

SeattleBravesFan, like I said, if I’d gone to top 15, I’d have Soundgarden and AIC on it. Loved both bands, and Audioslave too, though not as much as Soundgarden. Got three Queens of the Stone Age CDs.

Remember, it’s just my opinion, totally subjective. As I’ve said a bunch of times, Pearl Jam is undoubtedly great, and will stand the test of time, I’m certain. And I own six or seven of their CDs. Just that, for whatever reason, I stopped playing them years ago and just don’t have them in my top 10 over a 25-year period.

I mean, their body of work obviously completely blows away GnR. Just subjective thinking, and Appetite for Destruction seems to resonate with me more than any single thing PJ has done (maybe I just got more sick of Jeremy than Welcome to the Jungle _ kidding).

Why does everyone seem to have these definitive views of what defines great bands? I mean, a lot of folks really are just into one genre, so their list is dominated by hard bands, or new bands, or classic-rock bands, or great technical bands, etc. No problem. I totally understand.

But I’d never tell someone who thinks Pearl Jam is the best band ever that they’re wrong, and I can even see their point. really can. Just like if someone told me Radiohead was the best ever, I could definitely see their point. Those are great, great rock bands. Doesn’t mean they have to be in my subjective top 10, right?

By rammerjammer

January 9, 2007 03:26 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Great, great blog as always…and I have no idea who 90 percent of the bands are that you’re mentioning. Doesn’t matter; still enjoy the repartee.

But your agitation over losing Ward is rivaling that of folks who aren’t over Betemit going to L.A.

It’s apparent JS didn’t feel wealthy enough to pay a million bucks to a guy with no position.

Interesting that the only organization who thought he was worth it was the Cubs, who’ve set new standards in foolish spending.

By dougp

January 9, 2007 03:27 PM | Link to this

My list has to have Furcal on it, instead of Javy. Best shortstop arm from deep in the hole since Shawon Dunston. Furcal was a lot of fun to watch.

By MGL

January 9, 2007 03:28 PM | Link to this

John Thomson signs with the Blue Jays for $500K + Incentives. http://www.thestar.com/article/169274

By Shaun

January 9, 2007 03:29 PM | Link to this

O’Brien,

I would rely on both people who play the game, scouts and stats. Yes, pinch-hitting is harder and the numbers back that up. But Thorman is still a better hitter than Ward at this point in their careers and the numbers also back that up. Ward hit over his head in 2006 and the numbers back that up. Ward is not going to repeat his ‘06 performance, based on his age and his career numbers. So I think the Braves are fine with Thorman instead of Ward as the top LH pinch hitting option.

By NYM

January 9, 2007 03:31 PM | Link to this

Sorry to change the subject to baseball but I was just was looking over the rankings on Roto Baseball. I thought with all the debate that went on over the last 2-3 weeks about the comparisons to the Braves and Mets pitching staffs that position players were overlooked. Every Met infielder ranked higher than all Braves players(some much higher). I started thinking about the outfielders and other than right I think the Mets are superior as well. Some may argue A. Jones vs Beltran but when you factor avg and steals I would choose Beltran. He as Jones is a great center fielder.

By rammerjammer

January 9, 2007 03:31 PM | Link to this

John Thomson just signed with Toronto. Here you go:

http://www.thestar.com/article/169274

By Warren Haynes For President

January 9, 2007 03:34 PM | Link to this

Here is a quick stab at it (in no order):

The White Stripes Pearl Jam Gov’t Mule Beck The Black Crowes Stone Temple Pilot Hot Tuna Widespread Panic Nirvana Drive-By Truckers

I feel like I have to include the Truckers because A) They Rock B) They Rock So Hard C)Patterson Hood is the second only to Warren Haynes in pure unadulterated awesomeness. D) Southern Rock Opera

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 03:36 PM | Link to this

Rammerjammer _ thanks for the reality check, dude. That’s all I needed to hear. Yikes. If that’s the perception _ me obsessed with Ward like those who were with Betemit _ I’ll certainly cease and desist. I promise. I’ll not bring it up again.

Seriously, I’m not being sarastic about that. Didn’t know I was sounding so obsessed with him. I really don’t think it’ll dramatically affect the Braves one way or the other, just would’ve been nice to have. But done now. Moving on…

By Mr. Hunter

January 9, 2007 03:39 PM | Link to this

Uh, I am new to hte Blog and think Chipper Jones should be higher on hte list. Uh, thanks.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 03:39 PM | Link to this

Warren, tough to argue any of your points, particularly about Mr. Hood. The man was sent here to rock. And does. Nightly. God bless him.

NYM, thanks for changing the subject back to the Mets. On that note, I’ve got a few errands to run, folks.

By ObiWanKobe

January 9, 2007 03:40 PM | Link to this

I have couple of questions; -First regarding Pearl Jam. Did you listen to the later records like No Code and Yield. While No Code has nothing on it that would ever get radio play. It is far and away the best Pearl Jam record. Just curious? -Radiohead; Are you crazy. The single most important band of the last 25 years. -Blur; Are you crazy. Second most important band of the last 25 years.
-My Morning Jacket; not popular but best guitar band in the world. End of story. -Guns’ N Roses; Come on that’s a cop-out (and I’m from LA). They are like Duke basketball - OVER RATED!! -Sleater Kinney; If you asked the musicians this question they would be a consensus top 10. -The Pixies; You think they were around long enough to merit inclusion - (I don’t know when Sonic Youth first came out, but I’d swap them out for the Pixies). -I’d swap The Smiths out for just Morrissey even though I personally prefer The Smiths -I’d like to know your thoughts on Tool, …Trail of Dead, Belle & Sebastian!

-Thanks Dave!

By David-ATL14

January 9, 2007 03:42 PM | Link to this

File the above comment from Shaun along with his rants about Giles being an elite player.

Both are equally lacking in real world creditability.

Shaun you told us repeatedly how Giles would be the object of an intense bidding war by 10-15 teams. DOB correctly pointed out with many others that wouldn’t be the case.

Score 1 for DOB and put Shaun down for another “swing and miss” one of many.

By SeattleBrave'sFan

January 9, 2007 03:44 PM | Link to this

DOB…Absolutely. I have gotten a good chuckle over some of the posts that are bashing your’s and people’s choices. Its all subjective, whatever fits your groove. I might not have conveyed my point well enough, but I was not trying to bash any choices. More or less was trying to put a spin on your list and push us up a few years, see what ideas you have for current or very recent bands. Heck my IPOD includes everything from Jack Johnson to Slayer and everything in between. My tastes are as eclectic as they come. And I am right on with you about Pearl Jam, loved them early on, but just don’t find myself listening as much anymore. But can’t ignore the impact they had on music.

By SeattleBrave'sFan

January 9, 2007 03:46 PM | Link to this

DOB…By the way if you haven’t heard them yet, check out FLOGGING MOLLY…great irish inspired punk stylings…and i use punk loosely…

By Shaun

January 9, 2007 03:47 PM | Link to this

O’Brien,

Ignoring what Chipper and Pendleton say would be taking it too far. What I should have said is you need to validate what players and scouts say with evidence and vice versa. The human memory can be tricky and sometimes what people think is not actually true.

We remember that Ward had a remarkable season last year mostly as a pinch-hitter. We don’t remember that his overall numbers aren’t overly remarkable. And we probably don’t think about the fact that he’s 31 and he’s likely to decline anyway.

By Shaun

January 9, 2007 03:50 PM | Link to this

David-ATL14,

I’m sure there were plenty of teams interested in Giles—plenty of good teams. Money scared off most teams.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 03:53 PM | Link to this

ObIWan, no disagreement on greatness of Pearl Jam, Radiohead, My Morning Jacket and certainly not Sonic Youth, which I really wish I’d have put in my top 10 instead of GnR, but frankly kind of just overlooked them as I was rushing to do it, and don’t want to be all revisionist wishy-washy. Worship at the altar, as it were, of Sonic Youth. Have every one of their CDs except maybe 2-3 of the really experimental ones.

Blur _ great, but just don’t make my top 10-15 list.

I really like …Trail of the Dead and Belle & Sebastian (by the way, try explaining to a Sabbath fan why you like Belle & Sebastian; just pointing out to you that this is all entirely subjective). Not really a Tool fan, though.

OK, now seriously do have to go get to a couple of places before they close.

By Jon E. Klinkel

January 9, 2007 03:55 PM | Link to this

If you’re going to list Hank Aaron (who was big even in the 50s) then you have to CONSIDER any band and any player that PLAYED in the last 25 years.

That said, my top ten…..

Bands (In no particular order):

Sammy Hagar

Bon Jovi (great band, no matter what you say - I think some of the bands you listed suck)

Def Leppard

Ratt

Motley Crue

AC/DC

KISS

Poison

Dio

INXS

Could swap a lot of different bands in and out here, such as Nazareth, Cinderella, Kix, Warrant, Metallica, Alice Cooper, Quiet Riot, Slade, Judas Priest, etc.

Braves (IN ORDER):

1. Dale Murphy - for the decade of the 80s, Dale Murphy WAS the Atlanta Braves. Anybody not putting Murph at the top of their list ignores who he was and what he did for and meant to the Braves. His career stats seem a bit low? Consider that opposing pitchers could pitch around him every time up because there was NOBODY else in the lineup that could really hurt them - with the exception of the few years they had Bob Horner. Usually, the only pitches he got to hit were bad ones, but he had to try to hit them or the Braves were probably not going to win. Defense? I guess the Gold Gloves didn’t mean anything? Back-to-back NL MVP with stats warranting consideration the following 3 years, as well. He was, arguably, the BEST player of the DECADE of the 80s. Billy Williams made the comment that Murphy was the best he’d seen and he’d seen Willie Mays. Any list consisting of the best ATLANTA Braves of all time should have Dale Murphy at #1. Any list consisting of the best BRAVES of all time should have him in the top 3. He is one of 4 Braves to be in their “ring of honor”. The other 3 are in the HoF (Phil Niekro, Hank Aaron and Eddie Matthews). Apparently, SOMEBODY thinks he was one of the best 4 Braves ever (Atlanta or otherwise). P.S. - Also a member of the then pretty exclusive “30-30” club. Things were a bit different back then. Stats were different.

2. Hank Aaron

3. Phil Niekro

4. John Smoltz

5. Greg Maddux

6. Tom Glavine

7. Gene Garber

8. Chipper Jones

9. Andruw Jones

10. Bob Horner

Hon. Mention: Javy Lopez, Brian McCann (we’ll see), Rafael Ramirez, Rick Mahler, and a few more.

By MBATL

January 9, 2007 03:56 PM | Link to this

I think Thorman needs to be on the major league roster hitting against major league pitching, or be traded. Another “solid year” at Richmond accomplishes nothing.

So, you save the $600K, and play a promising prospect rather than a journeyman (who did post career numbers last year - a fluke, or a trend? who knows?). He obviously does not fit into our plans at any position.

It might cost you a few runs in ‘07 (but offense, we got, right?), but it also might further Thorman’s development to the point that he proves his value, to us or to someone else.

This is a case where I say you give a nod to the future, not just next year.

By rammerjammer

January 9, 2007 04:06 PM | Link to this

DOB,

I appreciate your comments, but it’s just my opinion. I don’t have to be right, and I could very well be wrong.

I guess I could’ve done a word search and seen how often you lamented Ward’s passing, but that would be proof that I need to open a window and breathe some fresh air.

Anyway, wasn’t flaming you. You’re the hardest working man in show business.

By snowball's chance

January 9, 2007 04:08 PM | Link to this

dougp, Here is a good link for hooking up audio sources to your PC

http://the-predator.tripod.com/dell/sec7-9.html

It was posted by Firebird on a Dell Forum. The main point for adding a turntable is that a preamp is usually necessary. The Ion unit is stand alone, I think.

By dougp

January 9, 2007 04:27 PM | Link to this

snowballs chance, thanks for the link, will have to check it out when I get home from work. Firewall blocked it here at work. At least it doesn’t block this site. or i would never be able to keep up with the bravos or learn about toes.

I think if you google baseball and toes, this site has to be the number one site going!!!!

buster olney has nothing on this place!

By Thrillhouse44

January 9, 2007 04:51 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB, where would Ron Gant fall in your list of all time Braves?

By ANONYMOUS

January 9, 2007 04:58 PM | Link to this

* HOW DO YOU NOT HAVE WARREN SPAHN OR JOHNNY SAIN ON YOUR LIST*????????????

By Spider29

January 9, 2007 05:07 PM | Link to this

My top 10 Atlanta Braves list 1.Hank Aaron,2.Phil Niekro,3.Greg Maddux,4.John Smoltz,5.Tom Glavine,6.Chipper Jones,7.Andruw Jones,8.Dale Murphy,9.David Justice,10.Terry Pendleton. My honorable mention would include Bob Horner, Steve Avery, Javy Lopez and Mark Lemke. I included Pendleton in my top 10 because I believe his play and leadership in 1991 was instrumental in the rise of the team that year. It will be interesting to re-visit this in ten or fifteen years.

By I am the decider

January 9, 2007 05:08 PM | Link to this

Nicknames: Mack “the Knife” Jones who passed away a couple of years ago. Sounded even cooler with “Hammerin’ Hank”

By I am the decider

January 9, 2007 05:12 PM | Link to this

ok, I stand corrected Steely Dan released two albums in the last 25 years. (I was aware of the 2001 release. coulda swore it was later, funny how time flies.) Since this list was for bands only, I wasn’t counting F*. That is a problem with lists, I guess.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 05:16 PM | Link to this

Anonymous: It’s a list of ATLANTA Braves, not all Braves in franchise history.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 05:18 PM | Link to this

rammerjammer, I know. i was serious, not being sarcastic. if i’m dwelling too much on ward, then I’ve made my point and then some. time to move on. agreed.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 05:23 PM | Link to this

Jon E., thanks for the input, and your list.

However, I don’t HAVE to do anything, in terms of these lists. Pretty simple, really: Best ATLANTA Braves, period, since the team moved to Atlanta, and best rock bands who came into prominence in the past 25 years, not in the past 30-40 years (the significance of 25, the reason for the list to begin with, was the fact that REM went into the Hall yesterday in their first year of eligibility, which is 25 years after a band releases its first record). The two lists have nothing to do with one another, as far as years or whatever.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 05:35 PM | Link to this

Talk about passion _ gotta like how strongly people feel about their choices, Braves- and music-wise. That’s why we did it, but response was even better than I anticipated.

We’ll have to do another list soon of top rock bands in history, regardless of time frame.

And we could do one of top performers, bands or solo artists, in all of popular music _ rock, country, R&B, soul, hip-hop, everything. From Sinatra, Hank Williams, and James Brown to Led Zep, Stones and Pink (just checking to see if you’re awake).

That would have to be more than a top 10, I’d imagine, or there could be blood spilled among the denizens here. Way too hard to whittle that to anything less than 25. But that’s for another day. My brain is too tired from debating this last list anyway.

Plus, we don’t want to repel too many of the baseball-only folks here with music overload.

On an entirely unrelated note, anybody watch that new comedy, Knights of Prosperity, tha debuted last week? Very funny. Second episode is Wednesday.

By TennesseePaul

January 9, 2007 05:44 PM | Link to this

you think stats can tell you the whole story in virtually all matters. They can’t

Could I get some stats on that? I just have a hard to believing that there is more to it than stats, and if you show me statistically, then I’ll agree with you.

Of course, the real/non-sarcastic response would be AMEN!!

By D-Rock in Scotland

January 9, 2007 05:46 PM | Link to this

I’ve got to echo Spider on Mark Lemke. That guy is one of my all time favorites. He wasn’t blessed with a lot of skills, but he played hard every time he took the field. I always had a good feeling when he’d come up to bat, especially in October.

DoB, I am indeed in Scotland. Going to school here in Aberdeen, oil capital of Europe. Suffice it to say, not many bands make it over here on tour. Also, braves news is hard to come by, so this is a super blog.

By TennesseePaul

January 9, 2007 05:49 PM | Link to this

I’d like to see Top Song Writers. That, to me, is the real talent. Most yahoos can go out with a costum and put on a helluva show, but to actually create the song… that’s something special. Take Willie, that guy can write a frickin song. I’m Crazy for feeling so lonely….

By TennesseePaul

January 9, 2007 05:56 PM | Link to this

[Thorman] obviously does not fit into our plans at any position.

Not so sure about that. The Braves were talking of trading LaRoche which would make me think Thorman fits in the plans some. Maybe not as a long term alternative but that’s to be understood to some extent. Long Term plans should revolve around the likes of McCann, Andruw, Smotlz, Chipper and so forth. Guys who will play All Star Caliber from the get-go. Thorman could be one of those guys, and they did lean towards opening room for him. I wouldn’t write him off so quickly. I think the sticking point is budget managment. How to put a winning team on with what you have. Or, how to build a winning team with the parts you have. Thorman wasn’t mentioned in trade rumors except that he could fill in for LaRoche. I will grant this though, I don’t think Thorman is fitting in long term. With LaRoche’s possible trade, Salty will be moved to 1B. Having a switch hitting slugger at first would be even better than a lefty with a tendancy to K.

By TennesseePaul

January 9, 2007 06:04 PM | Link to this

I understand the flap about roids and Big Mac, but why is it that FoxSports.com has the headline Fame and Shame? Lots of guys haven’t made it on the first ballot for all sorts of reasons. Today’s media is so reactionary.

By MBATL

January 9, 2007 06:19 PM | Link to this

TP, I meant that Ward didn’t figure as a position player for the future. And, assuming that Thorman doesn’t start in LF (which he may, but I think he’s a 1B, not an OF). So, given that, Ward and Thorman would be identical players off the bench, so okay to let Ward go. I do think Thorman would do okay at 1B if we traded Laroche.

Assuming we stand pat this year, how ‘bout prepping Brian McCann to play 1B in ‘08, and Salty behind the plate… give McCann 600 ab’s and protect him from injury and wear and tear, instead of the 450 or so ab’s we can expect with him at catcher.

Then (next year) you can trade Laroche with no worries, and save his salary, which will be creeping up to real money by then.

(just a thought, I know it ain’t likely)

By journalist jimmy smith

January 9, 2007 06:20 PM | Link to this

journalist thanks dougp for the observation that this is the place for baseball and toes.

now, journalist is eager to learn which atlanta braves are blogging with us here. could one be stinky? none of the players seem to be that messed up.

could bobby dews be blogging with us now? is journalist bob really bobby dews?

and could we spot chipper if chipper was uh, blogging here?

many questions.

By Jim

January 9, 2007 06:21 PM | Link to this

One early Atlanta Brave who has not got any respect in these top 10 lists is Felipe Alou. For all of those looking for a leadoff hitter for the 2007 Braves, check out Alou’s numbers from ‘65 through ‘68. He had a longer string of good years with the Braves than Ralph Garr and was a better all-round player than Rico Carty.

By Kentavo

January 9, 2007 06:22 PM | Link to this

Top 10 ATLANTA Bands since ‘82 (in no order)

drivin’ n’ cryin’ Black Crowes Mary My Hope Collective Soul Billy Pilgrim Jennifer Nettles Band Arrested Development Indigo Girls Col. Bruce Hampton and the Aquarium Rescue Unit Georgia Satellites

By snowball's chance

January 9, 2007 06:52 PM | Link to this

3trees, I didn’t think of Los Lobos because they are as old as me! They had been a group for long before they hit it big with “La Bamba”. That put them on the charts in the 80’s, so they belong in this discussion. What shows their artistic vision is they used that big check from “La Bamba” to finance a great Spanish album,”La Pistola y mi Corazon”. I am listening right now to a band from Colombia that rocks and they have to owe some inspiration to Los Lobos. Another band not mentioned is Talking Heads. David Byrne has gone on to champion some great Latin Music. One lady He introduced to Anglo audiences is Susana Baca. Think Sade with more experience.

By Joe Van Caray

January 9, 2007 06:56 PM | Link to this

O’Brien has lost his mine, Dale Murphy didn’t charge for autograph,

By Doug

January 9, 2007 07:12 PM | Link to this

Dave, I agree with the names on your list … just not the order. I like Murphy, but I think Andruw and Smoltz should be higher ranked than him.

I was also flabbergasted that you wouldn’t put Green Day on your list?!

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 9, 2007 07:14 PM | Link to this

MLBTRADERUMORS.COM is reporting that the Bucco Blog is saying the Pirates are currently talking to the Devil Rays about Elijah Dukes. They are saying the Rays would want Gorzelany or Gonzales. I find this to be somewhat interesting. I find it hard to believe that the Pirates would trade either one of those guys straight up for Dukes. But, if they are, it could prove to open a door for the Braves in their pursuit of Baldelli. Maybe?

By Sam

January 9, 2007 07:24 PM | Link to this

Hi Dave, All those bands your fans mention all stink except U-2 & R.E.M.I am from the old school but here is my take on the great bands….Rolling Stones, John Melencamp, Bob Seger and the Silver Bullet Band, Peter Frampton, Boston, Journey, Guns N Roses, U-2. These are the type of bands I like…good old fashion rock and roll.

By KC

January 9, 2007 07:27 PM | Link to this

OKAY, now that we have the top 10 Atlanta Braves… who are the bottom 10? They could make this list because they were a disappointment, because they were a jerk or both. I can’t think of 10 off the top of my head, but I’ll give you the worst five:

5 – Gary Sheffield: He didn’t do anything in October, and seemed to be all about himself and his money.

4 – Kenny Lofton: Didn’t gel in Atlanta, either on the field or (according to reports) in the clubhouse.

3 – Dan Kolb: Two words… overnight meltdown.

2 – Deion Sanders: When Bobby Cox speaks negatively of you… you have to be a legally certified as$hole! (Though in fairness, I will add that he seems to have changed since the)

1 – John Rocker: This guy was a jerk long before his NY comments. I remember him verbally berating one of the Braves infielders on the field for making an error. Don Sutton talked to him later, and said “In all my years in baseball, that’s the first time I can remember anyone showing up a teammate like that on the field”. Rocker, of course giving the Hall of Famer his due respect, simply said “well, there’s a first time for everything” and walked away.

By Urban Meyer

January 9, 2007 07:46 PM | Link to this

OK DOB. You want my list? You can have my list. And I’ll take your list. And I’ll beat you with your list. Because I will motivate the bands on your list to be better and to play faster.

By bruce

January 9, 2007 08:01 PM | Link to this

DougP and Dave: Great thought,have the same need, so I checked Best Buy link ionAudio Vinyl Recording USB Turntable $150

it says you can: Convert your old vinyl collection directly to CD or MP3; works with 33-1/3 and 45 rpm records

USB port makes connection to your computer quick and easy

but after writing all this, I noticed that it is available online only and currently sold out. Rats. Thanks, Bruce

By NCBravesFan

January 9, 2007 08:06 PM | Link to this

DOB, you are so off base with your band picks. Try these instead …

Top Ten, in No Particular Order:

Katrina and the Waves

New Kids on the Block

Right Said Fred

Color Me Badd

Europe

Mike & the Mechanics

98 Degrees

Air Supply

Insane Clown Posse

Mr.Mister

By Lew

January 9, 2007 08:17 PM | Link to this

Stinky-At least Rocker’s not a Whiny Little Jerk like you are. Here’s my top ten list of Hard Rock Bands that are Good But Don’t Ever Get Any Love 1. Rock City Angels 2.Tora Tora 3. Dirty Looks 4.Zodiac Mindwarp and The Love Reaction 5. Buck Cherry 6. Asphalt Ballet 7. Dangerous Toys 8. Junkyard 9. Three Days Grace 10. The Offspring.

By N8

January 9, 2007 08:18 PM | Link to this

Alright. I have one complaint about the HOF voting. Here are some alarming numbers that really just show how big of a POPULARITY contest it is (except for the obvious choices like Ripken and Gwynn).

Tony Fernandez: 4 votes

Eric Davis: 3 votes

Dante Bichette: 3 votes

Bobby Bonilla: 2 votes

Ken Caminitti: 2 votes

ARE YOU KIDDING ME????? NONE of these guys even remotely deserve to be there, much less recieve MULTIPLE votes. Let me guess which cities those votes came from? Hmmmmm, so tough to figure out? Sad, Sad, Sad. Not to mention the fact that there is 8 people that DIDN’T VOTE for Ripken and 12 People that DIDN’T VOTE for Gwynn. That’s just plain old IGNORANT. (Ripken missed 9 votes and Gwynn missed 13, but I didn’t count the guy that didn’t vote for ANYBODY in protest to the steroid era)

Speaking of that, I understand why the one writer chose to NOT VOTE at all (sent an empty ballot), but IMO, if somebody sends an empty ballot back, then they should LOSE voting privelage.

Below is a link to the article on the Braves official site with all of the “vote totals”.

http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070109&contentid=1775441&vkey=newsmlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

What’s your take, DOB on somebody NOT voting for EITHER of these guys (Gwynn and Ripken)?

By MBATL

January 9, 2007 08:20 PM | Link to this

KC, tyring to help you finish your Braves Hall of Shame list:

1. Bruce Sutter (great guy, great pitcher, HOF’er, but not for us)

2. Andy Messersmith (helped to create free agency, but didn’t help the Braves much)

3. Nick Esasky (vertigo)

4. Brett Butler (fine player, but we gave him the better part of 3 years and he never produced for us)

5. Brad Komminsk (4th overall pick… just never could hit major league pitching)

By TennesseePaul

January 9, 2007 08:23 PM | Link to this

MBATL: Interesting idea. Though I think I’d feel safer with McCann behind the plate than switching him to first at the pro level. From all accounts, Salty isn’t that great of a back stop. Might as well move him to first in the minors while you have time to experiment a bit. I wouldn’t be surprised to see LaRoche moved mid-season and Thorman taking his place. This would be the best move. LaRoche’s value should only improve and from there Thor and Salty have time to prepare for whatever comes. LaRoche should bring in quite the return as well. Whatever the case, it looks as though the Braves will be in good shape at that position for a little while.

By N8

January 9, 2007 08:30 PM | Link to this

NCBravesFan

How can you have that list and exclude: Menudo, Gerardo (Mr. Rico Suave), Milli Vanilli and Michael Bolton (which brings me to one of my favorit quotes/sequences from Office Space):

Bob Slydell: “Let’s see… You are Michael… Bolton?”

Michael: “Yeah.”

Bob Porter: “Is that your real name?”

Michael: “Yeah.”

Bob Slydell: “Are you any realation to the pop singer?”

Michael: “No, it’s— It’s just a coincidence.”

Bob Slydell: “Because, I’ll be honest with you. I love his music. I do. I’m a Michael Bolton fan.”

Bob Porter: “Me too.”

Bob Slydell: “For my money, I don’t know if it gets any better than when he sings ‘When a Man Loves a Woman’.”

Bob Porter: “But you must really love his music, huh?”

Michael: “Yeah, he’s— he’s— he’s pretty— He’s pretty good, I uess.”

Bob Slydell: “You’re g******* right, he is.”

Sorry, had to ad that. LOL!

By journalist jimmy smith

January 9, 2007 08:33 PM | Link to this

stinky is back and posting using this journalist’s good name. stinky stayed away for awhile with good reason - complete and total emasculation and embarrassment before the other bloggers. everyone remembers the sad, pitiable, episode at christmas. maybe stinky will go away again since no one has forgotten. try again in six months, stinky.

now, did everyone realize that ralph garr did a great hank aaron imitation that did not please hank aaron? sorta like denny neagle’s train whistle but with a different noise …

now, who among the braves is blogging with us? is it wicky? not much talk of bbq lately so journalist thinks it is not wicky.

By Rosalynn

January 9, 2007 08:41 PM | Link to this

Jimma has invited 20,000 Baptists to town in 2008! These Baptists will be everawheah you go in Atlanta and some of them ah gonna want to see some baseball games. That means no beah sales at Turna Field until they leave. Sorra foh the inconvenience.

By Lew

January 9, 2007 09:28 PM | Link to this

Esteemed Journalist- You should take into account that it is barely two weeks since Stinky’s Dissociative episode on Christmas Eve. I think it’s rather amazing that he’s back so soon after a total meltdown of such epic proportions.

By Jared

January 9, 2007 09:33 PM | Link to this

How can you put John Rocker at the bottom? Last I remember, he was extremely good when he was with the Braves, especially in 1999. 104 strikeouts in 72 innings is just insane.

Same with everyone else but Kolb. I really don’t care how they act off the field (unless they harm someone or drive drunk) as long as they get along somewhat well with most of their teammates and play well. Yeah I guess Rocker annoyed Met fans even before his December 1999 comments. Boo hoo. I wish more did that.

By KC

January 9, 2007 09:38 PM | Link to this

Jared:

I based that list on two things… if a player was either a great disappointment or a total jerk. John Rocker certainly met the latter creteria.

By KC

January 9, 2007 09:40 PM | Link to this

Jared: Also, if you read what I wrote about John Rocker… he showed his true colors well before the SI interview. And his behavior wasn’t just a problem off the field (again, refer to what I wrote about Rocker in the previous post).

By Robert

January 9, 2007 09:52 PM | Link to this

“We’re not as familiar with truckstops and their bathroom equpipment here in Georgia as y’all are in ‘bama since we actually have things like homes without licence plates and turn signals”

Homes Without License Plates would be a great band name

By Hammy the Brave

January 9, 2007 09:53 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Don’t you think the Braves would be helped to sign Dmitri Young and Phil Nevin to minor league contracts, as bench players/ pinch hitters?

Could you ask your Braves sources if they’d consider this?

By brian

January 9, 2007 09:59 PM | Link to this

how can you put Brett Butler in the Hall of Shame for the Braves? We traded him away while he was young and had not reached his full potential. We traded away a promising young OF for Len Barker!! Of course Brett Butler came into his own and had a very successful career. Brooks Jacoby was not half bad either and would have been just as good as Oberkfell

By Robert

January 9, 2007 10:02 PM | Link to this

Just for the record, there’s been a lot of great music mentioned (and a lot of music I never got into or never heard of - which doesnt mean it isnt great music)

But, this I must say

Tom Petty is to great music what Bobby Cox is to great managing - (in other words, he’s not)

Tom Petty is drivel

By MBATL

January 9, 2007 10:10 PM | Link to this

brian, ‘hall of shame’ may not be the right term… how about a list of disappointments?

I think I said Butler was a fine player; okay, so we traded a fine player for Len Barker. Let’s put him on the list instead, okay? I’m flexible.

By Kentavo

January 9, 2007 10:16 PM | Link to this

Greatest ATL Braves list must include:

Bob Horner Bruce Benedict (All-Star) Gene Garber (hello, DOB!!!)

By MBATL

January 9, 2007 10:19 PM | Link to this

Robert, “Damn the Torpedos” was one of my favorite albums back in the day… but of course they predated the 25-year limit, so it doesn’t matter. It DOES bring up another band that I don’t think has been mentioned…. the Traveling Wilbury’s.

By Robert

January 9, 2007 10:22 PM | Link to this

Enough about the top ten Braves - How about the bottom ten Braves

10.Otis Nixon - The Braves have had far far worse ballplayers than Otis fersure, but he gets honorable mention at number 10 for his cocaine fiasco in 91

9.Pat Rockett - In his third partial season with the Braves in Atlanta, hit .141 in 142 at bats in 1978. Never got within spitting distance of the bigs again

8.Zane Smith - Not the worst Braves pitcher ever(one of the better ones thru about 1990 to be honest) but hands down the ugliest

7.Mark Wohlers - Whoa whoa Wohlers. Since they’re a week behind my fastball, let’s try throwing a hanging changeup. Need I say more

6.John Rocker - Maybe not the worst, but certainly the stupidest (at least player-wise)

5.Blue Moon Odom - His 56 inning Braves career resulted in a 1-7 record and a 7.07 ERA

4.Curtis Pride - who never heard the boos

3.Jose Oliva - honest to god’s truth, in my Atlanta-based, Fantasy Baseball league, he was drafted in 1998

2.Rusty Richards - Anyone who can name what years he pitched for the Braves without cheating has no life whatsoever

1.Bobby Cox - who has done more damage in Atlanta than anyone since General Sherman left town

By N8

January 9, 2007 10:22 PM | Link to this

Robert

About Tom Petty, on the surface, I agree with you. But the odd thing is, I like his song writing. When the songs start, I find myself getting into them. But then the singing starts. That’s about as far as I make it. GREAT SONGWRITER, that has no business singing, IMO. There is so many people in ALL walks of music who fall into this category. Of course this is just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

But being a bit of a Metal Head, and a guitarist, I’ve always felt obligated to listen to Ozzy due to him always having absolute MONSTERS as guitar players, but that voice! ARGHHH! Drives me INSANE!

Now you got me thinking. I’m gonna compile a list of the ALL TIME greatest songwriters that can’t/couldn’t sing their way out of a small town karaoke bar.

I suppose the list must start with Dylan (Tom Petty’s illegitimate father, rumor has it. LOL). GREAT songwriter, timeless, his music meant and means somthing to the people who lived it. But dude can’t sing. I’ll get back to y’all with my list, time to watch some HOUSE on the DVR.

By Robert

January 9, 2007 10:25 PM | Link to this

Tony Fernandez: 4 votes

Eric Davis: 3 votes

Dante Bichette: 3 votes

Bobby Bonilla: 2 votes

Ken Caminitti: 2 votes

For Davis and Bichette, that’s mom, dad, and the Mrs. Fernandez has a sibling. Bonilla and Caminiti are divorced

How did I do?

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 10:28 PM | Link to this

NCBravesFan, I like your entire list, except Air Supply _ but only because they hit it big well before 1982. Their self-titled debut came out in 1976, and the rockin’ Love & Other Bruises LP came out in 1977.

By Correction Please

January 9, 2007 10:30 PM | Link to this

There is no hands-down ugliest with Zane Smith, The Mahlers, and Rick Camp.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 9, 2007 10:32 PM | Link to this

This isn’t probably considered great music but does anyone remember The Presidents of The United States of America? Man, I love that group!

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 10:33 PM | Link to this

Urban Meyer, good post.

(I’m trying to figure out what kind of music the real Urban Meyer would like, by the way. He looks to be one of the straightest-laced humans to come down the pike in some time.)

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 10:36 PM | Link to this

N8, my comment on someone who didn’t vote for Gwynn or Ripken? Well, they are either complete contrarians, or didn’t vote just to make sure neither of those guys would be the first-ever unanimous Hall selection, or they simply don’t have much of a clue what they’re doing.

By MBATL

January 9, 2007 11:05 PM | Link to this

Guys that vote for nobody are obviously making some kind of statement… whatever. But what about guys like Bradley who put something like 8 players on his ballot (the AJC link is gone now, so I can’t be precise, but he had pretty much everybody on there).

So, there have been 280 players elected to the Hall in the history of baseball, but Bradley’s gonna put in 8 in one year (and only 3 or 4 had ANY real credentials). That kind of voting is more of a threat to the HOF than voting for no one.

By N8

January 9, 2007 11:37 PM | Link to this

DOB

you wrote:

“….or didn’t vote just to make sure neither of those guys would be the first-ever unanimous Hall selection”

That is EXACTLY what I was thinking. Oh well, they got in. You know they are great players, I know they are great players and I’m sure that Tony and Cal could realy care less about getting in by unanimous vote, getting in is special enough, I’m sure.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 11:42 PM | Link to this

MBATL, I thought five should’ve gone in this year: Gwynn, Ripken, Dawson, Rice and Gossage….

Played GnR’s Appetite for Destruction, plus most of Use Your Illusion I and II today, and you know what? I’m reminded why I put these guys on there. Damn, those boys could flat-out rawk! If they’d combined the best songs of Illusion I and II into one disc, they’ have had a second classic album, not as good as Appetite (one of the 10 best rock albums ever, in my opinion), but damn good.

Anyway, just wish I’d have done a top-20 list instead of 10, given the bands I forgot about in my haste. After more deliberate consideration than yesterday’s original top 10 list (all of which I stick by), my additional 10 (in no particular order):

Sonic Youth, Soundgarden, Radiohead, Pearl Jam, Drive-By Truckers, Los Lobos, Metallica, Alice In Chains, Beastie Boys, Social Distortion.

There, that’s it. No more room for debate (kidding, folks, kidding)….

Long as we’re at it, my expanded top 15 ATLANTA Braves would be: 11. Terry Pendleton, 12. Bob Horner, 13. Rafael Furcal, 14. Ralph Garr, 15. Jeff Blauser.

Rough couple of days for Ohio State, although their hoops team certainly put forth a helluva better effort tonight than their football team did, coming from way back to nearly tie on last-second shot before losing at Wisconsin by 3….

By flbravesgirl

January 9, 2007 11:44 PM | Link to this

Congratulations on your retirement, Snowball!

Robert, had to chuckle at the “ugly” pick. My dad and I have a long-running joke about players making the “All-Ugly Team”. Randy Johnson heads the list.

DOB, Meyer does look like a very serious, straight-laced guy. Contrast that to the basketball coach, who makes me think “Mafia” every time I see him.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 11:45 PM | Link to this

I think I just heard that Gwynn was actually worried he might be the first unanimous choice. Didn’t want to be, didn’t think he was worthy. Given that DiMaggio, Mantle and others weren’t unanimous, I guess no one every should be. Can you even imagine not voting for those guys back then when they became eligible?

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 11:48 PM | Link to this

and Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Ted Williams … none unanimous. Amazing. Ridiculous and amazing.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 9, 2007 11:48 PM | Link to this

DOB, the Bucco Blog is saying that the Pirates are talking to the Devil Rays about trading for Elijah Dukes. If the Pirates were silly enough to trade Gorzelany or Gonzales straight up for Dukes, would the Rays then back off their asking price for Baldelli and accept Davies, Escobar, and Salty? I want to hear your opinion.

By David O'Brien

January 9, 2007 11:55 PM | Link to this

Robert (JIB), I have no idea. No idea whether one has any bearing on the other, and no idea if there’s anything to it (if I’m not mistaken, that particular source hasn’t exactly been dead-on accurate this winter, has it?). Anyway, I honestly don’t have an opinion at this point.

By Michael

January 9, 2007 11:58 PM | Link to this

What about Pendleton? I think he should have squeeked into that #10 spot.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 12:04 AM | Link to this

Hillbilly, I thought those Hogs were gonna beat the dastardly Gators tonight at Gainesville. Gave ‘em a heckuva game before slipping late. Damn….

My man Nick Collison had 29 points and 21 boards tonight for the Sonics _ but they still couldn’t beat Steve Nash and the Suns. Damn.

OK, gotta go watch Law & Order: Criminal Intent on my ancient VHS.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 10, 2007 12:06 AM | Link to this

DOB, I know. The Bucco Blog has been, well, lets say inaccurate. Not to mention this guy is an assclown. Now, he rips LaRoche and accuses him of being a primadonna but yet he wants Elijah Dukes. Makes no sense. He says that JS was trying to con Littlefield at the winter meetings but that someone inside the Pirate orginization (who is now with the Braves) leaked info that Gonzales health issues were not resloved. He then says JS intentionally leaked the deal to the media so the Mariners would trade Soriano. This guy seems to have it out for the Braves. Perhaps, he is still upset about ‘91 and ‘92. Who knows?

By flbravesgirl

January 10, 2007 12:44 AM | Link to this

Someone actually called LaRoche a primadonna?!? What alternate universe did this person come from? LaRoche is about the most laidback, unassuming guy imaginable. Robertjitb, I don’t think I’d take anything that guy writes seriously.

By Lew

January 10, 2007 01:11 AM | Link to this

Appetite For Destruction is, indeed, a classic. Night Train and Mr. Brownstone-what a bunch of wasted individuals. Totally amazing, but they could really kick a$$.

By MS

January 10, 2007 01:21 AM | Link to this

DOB, Glad you were re-enlightened by the old GNR. You’re dead on with Appetite, just a fantastic album that still holds up just as strong today. Especially when you consider all the glam rock crap that was coming out around that time; they really brought it on that album and made big strides for the hard rock genre. And you’re right with Use Your Illusion I & II, not a classic with hit after hit throughout, but there is at least a full album of great tracks between the two discs.

If you ever get a chance, you should go see “Appetite for Destruction”. They are a GNR cover/tribute band that comes to town every couple of months. They are amazing. They look and sound just like GNR and have it down to even little details and nuances of the real band members. www.notquitegnr.com is the website I think. Good stuff.

By Jared

January 10, 2007 02:35 AM | Link to this

Bucco Blog is a load of garbage. The guy who runs it has about a million nutty conspiracy theories, an obsession with the Devil Rays’ farm system and a load of “sources”.

The guy puts out rumors that he WANTS to happen. He seems to think if he writes it, it will come true. The only time he is right about a rumor is if everyone else has the rumor. Why is this guy the only one talking about a Pirates/Devil Rays trade?

The guy has trashed LaRoche from day one. So he just using more made-up junk to make LaRoche look bad, like the phoney scout he claims he talked to.

By the way, when is that LaRoche/Melky/Gonzalez three-way going to get done? BuccoBlog said it would be done by Christmas.

By T 2 the D

January 10, 2007 05:01 AM | Link to this

All timers for past 25? First pitchers. The G man won you the World Series, has to be 1. Smoltzie lost the greatest pitching duel on the biggest stage in ‘91, 2. Avery, wicked, just wicked man,3. Knucksie, DOB didn’t win twice last week in ‘82 and hit a game winning HR?,4. Now y’all are saying where’s the Maddog? Maybe the greatest pitcher I’ll ever see. I always considered him a hired gun though, more scientist than ragged gile. BTW, which hat will he wear to the HOF? 5. Position players later…

By Lee

January 10, 2007 07:54 AM | Link to this

just chiming in a little late. had to throw fugazi out there. hadnt seen them mentioned yet. they would be in my top 3. most of the rest i would agree on.

By Ray

January 10, 2007 07:59 AM | Link to this

Dave, terrific and enjoyable read on your list. Smoltz, for what he is to the club, to Atlanta, to baseball in my opinion will always be near the top. In YOUR opinion when Smoltz hangs it up, do you think he gets in the HOF? Gwynn and Ripken are what is good about baseball. It boggles my mind on Gwynn that he had 8 seasons where he struck out less than 20 times the ENTIRE season. And Ripken, he played what 500+games AFTER he broke the streak. That streak led everyone else’s consecutive game streak by itself during that time. How fitting that those two go in at the same time. Two classy ball players, more importantly two classy people.

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 08:29 AM | Link to this

Here are some projections for 2007. Check out Ward vs. Thorman. Not too much difference.

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/oracle/discussion/2007zipsprojectionsatlantabraves/

Ward:

.257 AVG/.315 OBP/.442 SLG/14 HR/58 RBI/40 R

Thorman:

.262 AVG/.312 OBP/.426 SLG/15 HR/59 RBI/51 R

The fact that pinch-hitting is tougher, still doesn’t change the fact that Thorman is as at least as good a hitter as Ward and Ward hit way over his head last season. Yes, Thorman’s numbers will not be as good as a pinch-hitter as they would be if he were a regular but Ward’s not going to repeat his ‘06 performance.

I would put money on it; Thorman will have at least as good a season as Ward, all things being somewhat equal. This may be why the Braves decided not to spend the few extra $100,000 on Ward. That may not be that much, but why spend any more than you have to especially if your organization is cutting payroll? I don’t know if this was the Braves’ thinking, but I hope they are thinking about payroll efficiency.

By David-ATL14

January 10, 2007 08:30 AM | Link to this

No Shaun, for the record all 29 other teams passed on GIles as a trade option.No team considered him worth 5.5m a season. After his release only two teams considered him at all. D-Rays and Padres. Neither of these teams were willing to invest much money in Giles. Padres get him 1 year 3.25m. Keep reading your Baseball Abstract and moronically insist Giles is an elite player.Only serves to amplify your utter foolishness.

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 08:41 AM | Link to this

David-ATL14,

I’m sure lots of teams looked at Giles (I think I heard Cleveland, Boston) but weren’t interested because of the price. But there’s no way either one of us could ever know which teams were remotely interested, so I’ll say this: If somewhat healthy, Giles will be one of the top five secondbasemen in baseball.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 10, 2007 08:42 AM | Link to this

Forgot about the Hogs vs. Gators lastnight. So we played them good, huh? I’d a never suspected it since we beat the crap out of Alabama last week. I wouldn’t expect two good games in a row.

Watched “The Wall” on VH1 Classic lastnight, though. Learn something new about that movie/album everytime I watch it.

By Ray

January 10, 2007 08:56 AM | Link to this

Quick point on the Giles comment. David you are correct. Giles is a nice player but elite ..no way. Chances are we will get at least those numbers from Kelly Johnson this year if not better. This might be a real good reason why the Braves didn’t offer John Thomson any sort of deal. He apparently is going to sign with Toronto and they are hoping he is healthy and ready. Dave, you are right about Gossage, he does deserve to be in the HOF. Saw yesterday that no player that has gotten at least 70% of the votes has not eventually gotten in. So when next year is not crowded like this year, the Goose will get his due. And it is beyond stupid this no player has received a unanimous election in the hall. The writers that send in their blank ballots are beyond morons. The idiot in the little neighborhood newspaper in Chicago sending in a blank ballot because as he puts it, does not have enough evidence to vote for players in the “steroid era.” Then I guess the dude is going to be sending in blank ballots for the next 15 years. His privledge should be revoked. Dave, with people like that, no wonder coaches and players get a bit ticked off at the media especially when they make stupid comments and ask stupid questions. Some “reporters/writers” Dave you are excluded in this comment, end the theory what we were taught by our parents and teachers that there is no such thing as a stupid question. Oh yes there is. As YOU know, during the season you probably hear at least 5 in the locker room each night after the game. Enough rambling on my end.

By Jon E. Klinkel

January 10, 2007 09:16 AM | Link to this

DOB,

Of course you don’t HAVE to do anything. When I said “have”, I meant out of common sense. However, I missed what you were aiming for as far as the bands were concerned. That’s fine.

But I still think people are overlooking Dale Murphy. Hall of Fame voters and all the folks here who don’t have him #1 for Atlanta Braves. It is a clear choice. And I really debated about putting Hank Aaron at #2. I’m thinking he may be more around #7-9. Did any of you guys happen to check his “Atlanta” Braves numbers? Yes, he had some good years but only hit about a third of his homeruns as an Atlanta Brave. When comparing his LATTER years to some of these other guys’ prime years, you can’t just automatically throw him in at #1. Think that over a bit for me. Also, if you would, re-evaluate your position on Dale Murphy. There have been a lot of statements over the years made by experts (coaches, players, managers, etc.) that say Murphy WAS one of the best ever. When you are one of the top two - statistically - for a whole DECADE, you had to be pretty good. Then take into consideration the rest of the talent, or lack thereof, on the teams he played for and think what he would have done if he had played with, say, the Yankees. I guess my biggest point is this: Dale Murphy did what he did as pretty much the only star on the team. These other guys needed the cast around them to do what they did. He didn’t. He was, to an extent, a one-man team for the majority of his career.

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 09:17 AM | Link to this

Ray and David,

I’m not sure what is meant by elite but Giles is one of the top 5 secondbasemen in the game when healthy. He’s not the best in the game or a Hall of Famer or anything but he’s one of the five best playing secondbase regularly right now.

By Ray

January 10, 2007 09:33 AM | Link to this

Shaun, the key word there is healthy. And the fact that he was going to cost as much as he was, obviously NO team was going to pay him that. Just curious, you say he is a top 5 second baseman, where would you rank him?

By Jon E. Klinkel

January 10, 2007 09:43 AM | Link to this

Oh, to fix a mistake I made earlier….Warren Spahn also has his number retired with the Braves. Not sure how I left that out.

Pulled this from atlanta.braves.mlb.com a few minutes ago under the retired numbers section (just some further info some people may find useful or didn’t already know):

“Dale Murphy Murphy was the Braves’ No. 1 (and fifth overall) draft pick in 1974. Originally signed as a catcher, Murphy was moved to the outfield by Bobby Cox in 1980. The move helped as Murphy averaged just under 30 HRs and just under 90 RBIs from 1980 to 1990. During those 11 years, Murphy won back-to-back league MVP awards in 1982 & 1983, appeared in seven All-Star games, leading all players in votes in 1985, won five Gold Gloves, and appeared in 740 consecutive games from September 26, 1981 through July 8, 1986. Murphy’s 15 -year career with the Braves came to an end on August 4, 1990, when he was traded to Philadelphia. The Braves received Jeff Parrett, Jim Vatcher, and Victor Rosario for Murphy and Tommy Greene. Murphy played in only 18 games with Philadelphia in 1992 due to knee problems and appeared in 26 games for the Colorado Rockies in 1993 before retiring. Murphy holds 13 Atlanta franchise records including most home runs (371), RBIs (1,143), hits (1,901), runs (1,103), and games (1,926). Inducted into the Braves Hall of Fame in August of 2000.”

Anybody else with numbers like that is either in the HoF or not eligible yet. They are also pretty much household names. Most people don’t know who Dale Murphy is. I think that’s his biggest obstacle surrounding his HoF enshrinement. He just went out and played - did his job. Didn’t have to make a spectacle of himself.

I know I’m going on and on but it’s hard not to.

In a game against the Cubs (while playing for the Phillies) the Phils were losing and there were runners on 2nd and 3rd with two outs. Heathcliff Slocumb walked John Kruk to pitch to Murphy. This is when Murphy was about done and wasn’t considered the same threat he was in Atlanta. This also put Slocumb in a position that he actually had to throw strikes to Murphy - something most pitchers never did. That was his last grand slam and the Phils won. I was watching it on tv and actually cried a little. Even at that point in his career, he proved that you still better - if nothing else - respect him. Now, nobody is respecting him again and he can’t prove them wrong anymore. And he wouldn’t try. He’s not that way.

Dale Murphy was and is my favorite player of all time and is, without doubt, the best Atlanta Brave ever. And in stating he is the best Atlanta Brave ever I am not taking into consideration that he is my favorite. Anyone that has seriously followed the Braves during their time in Atlanta would place Murphy at #1.

Sorry for all my running on. I hope it hasn’t ruined your thread. Just thought a little more insight on Murphy was in order.

By Rodger

January 10, 2007 09:50 AM | Link to this

way late chiming in-DOB, I know Journey became cheesy, but through Escape, they rocked! (plus, with albums back to mid 70’s, they’re out of range)

Also, had to chuckle about the Rickie Lee Jones reference-first time I heard Sheryl Crow, I thought-hey, new Rickie Lee, but she lost the passion…

On Crow, with no talent, whoin the music world did she —ck to even get played, much less raved?

By Carroll

January 10, 2007 10:01 AM | Link to this

MBATL: I cannot believe you would list Brett Butler on the Hall of Shame list!! EVen Ted Turner reffered to trading away Butler as the worst move he ever made. I remember that I almost cried the day they traded him. He was our Kenny Lofton, Len Dykstra, etc, etc. And then we almost got him back before the 1991 season but he opted for the Dodgers instead, and rightfully so since the Braves had done him so wrong early in his career by sending him to the wasteland that was Cleveland.

Anywho, here are some other hall of shame nominees (forgive me if these have been mentioned already):

Reggie Sanders, Wally Joyner, Andy Ahsby, Michael Tucker (traded away a future MVP for this guy who turned out to be a middling player at best), Lofton, Boone, etc,etc.

By Matthew

January 10, 2007 10:02 AM | Link to this

DOB:

I enjoyed all of the Ark-FL game except the last two minutes. Great effort by the Hogs. Mark my words, if they continue to improve they’ll be a Sweet 16 team (hear that Hillbilly?).

Whoever brought up the Presidents of the United States of America earlier reminded me of a question. Rosalynn, did Jimma ever do any work with this band?

I’m sure these have already been mentioned, but Javy Lopez has signed with the Rockies (potentially a 1.6 mil dollar deal) and John Thomson signed with Toronto ($500,000 guaranteed). Good luck guys.

Okay, need caffeine now.

By Carroll

January 10, 2007 10:05 AM | Link to this

Hear hear, Mr. Klinkel!

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 10:14 AM | Link to this

Ray,

I would rank him probably fourth or fifth behind Utley, Kent, Barfield and maybe Hudson. If he’s extremely healthy, he’s right behind Utley.

I know I’m going to annoy people here but according to the Win Shares system in 2006 he was tied for the 10th best 2B in baseball, even with all the injury problems. If healthy, he could easily jump up to the Ray Durham, Orlando Hudson level.

My guess is he won’t be healthy enough to be right behind Utley, but he will be more healthy than last season and will be one of the fourth- to seventh-best secondbasemen in the game.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=winshares&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy=total&direction=DESC&seasonfilter%5B%5D=2006&posfilter%5B%5D=2B&Submit=Submit

By dcarp23

January 10, 2007 10:26 AM | Link to this

DOB-you mentioned above: “Well, they are either complete contrarians, or didn’t vote just to make sure neither of those guys would be the first-ever unanimous Hall selection, or they simply don’t have much of a clue what they’re doing.” Do you think the first two are mutually exclusive? That is, do you think there is a legitimate motive in keeping someone from being the first unanimous selection, or is that just another form of contrarianism? Personally, I think not voting for someone because Babe Ruth was not unanimously elected is a tad ludicrous.

By dcarp23

January 10, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this

Shaun-How are win shares determined? Is there a mathematical formula, or does Bill James read the boxscores of every game and make determinations there?

By Ray

January 10, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this

And Shaun part of it, is the fact he has to be healthy and you are going on what he did a few years ago. You know as well as I do, the beauty of baseball you can pull out any stats to make a case for whatever side you are on. In batting avg alone, Giles doesn’t rank in the top 15. A few fans are the only ones that rank him in the top 5. Obviously not too many teams do. Wouldn’t you agree a top 5 second baseman is going to make at least 5 million a year even with injuries especially in today’s market? I don’t dislike him or his ability at all but at the price it was going to take to keep him here, simply not worth it. In the clubhouse, him and his brother together will either make it a terrific clubhouse or it will be a major distraction. I don’t see it being a happy medium there. I could be way off base for sure but just an opinion.

By Jay

January 10, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

Top ten REM songs

1. Shiny Happy People
   1. Superman (I am)
   2. Everybody Hurts
   3. Losing my Religion
   4. Catapult
   5. Pilgrimage
   6. Radio Free Europe
   7. Its the End of the World…
   8. Rockville (Don’t go back to)
   9. Exhuming McCarthey

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 10:43 AM | Link to this

dcarp, I agree that not voting for someone because Ruth or Mays or the Splendid Splinter weren’t unanimous is ludicrous. Just because voters screwed up in the past, or had axes to grind and knew they wouldn’t be singled out and called on the carpet nationwide to explain their voting, doesn’t mean that voters today should be excused for using that as a reason not to vote on a player today.

Also, I’m sure a couple of these guys are doing it solely for the publicity, so they’ll get called by talk shows or whatever to explain their stance. Seriously, there are some who crave that spotlight enough to do something like that.

By Ray

January 10, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this

Dave, I agree with you on the fact that some of them do it simply for the pub. I do wish the Hall would take a closer look at who receives the ballots and how serious they take it. I know that is a judgement call but still some with the track record, it would not be too difficult to weed out those that don’t deserve to vote. Then let them hack their lame story on how the hall took away their ballot and gave it to someone that took it a bit more serious.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 10, 2007 10:54 AM | Link to this

Matthew,

I didn’t watch the Alabama game or the Tulsa game either for that matter, so I can’t say too much, but the buzz on the street is pretty similar to your predictions. If they’re improving as much as I’ve heard they are, then I won’t doubt you a bit. I’ve never been too high on Stan Heath, but I’ll see how this season turns out before I sick the dogs on him. Bucknell still hurts :(

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this

Shaun, don’t want to stir up the Giles debate, but just keep seeing you referring to “if” he’s healthy, etc, he’ll be top five. Well why in the world wouldn’t he be healthy? Does he just get a hall pass each year if he happens to get hurt again? I mean, he’s got no chronic knee condition, didn’t have elbow or shoulder surgery, etc, you act as though he’s somehow operating with a handicap and should be given leeway in any argument because of his slew of mostly unrelated injuries.

I agree with you on one thing _ Giles certainly WAS one of the best 2Bs a few years ago. I’d have put him in the top three in all of basball in the 2003 and the 2005 seasons. But that’s two seasons. And he wasn’t anywhere near the top in production in two of the last four seasons, ‘04 and ‘06, and the Braves say they were concerned by his decline in consistency and production and didn’t want to commit $5 mill to him because of that.

Again, don’t want to stir the debate, but just curious as to why you keep qualifying your argument with “IF” he’s healthy or somewhat healthy. He’s got not more excuse than any other under-30 player for not being healthy in 2007. He’s had a full offseason to heal, and he has no chronic health issues.

I don’t hear anyone saying things like, “If Utley is somewhat healthy….” or “If Andruw Jones is somewhat healthy” or “If Brian McCann is healthy….”

Andruw plays, and plays every day, with chronically sore knees and back issues and produces year after year. McCann had a fairly serious ankle injury that DL’d him and slowed him for nearly two months last season and came back and produced great full-season numbers.

Enough with injuries for excuses _ especially not BEFORE the season’s even begun. No one, NO ONE, who doesn’t have chronic health issues should be given a hall pass before the damn season even begins. That’s ridiculous. If a player is that fragile, that he can be expected to have his performance significantly hindered even if he has no apparent healthy problems entering a season, then he’s not an elite player.

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

Ray,

I think a lot of teams would love to have Giles. But I think teams weigh the fact that he’s approaching 30 and he’s an injury risk so they weren’t going to give him $5 million. And secondbase is not an offensive position, so if you have an adequate defensive player who is young and cheap, you are going to go with that player over a guy like Giles. All of these things are why I believe a lot of teams shied away from MGiles.

And, as many anti-stat folks have reminded me, one stat does not a player make. Batting average is a rather poor indicator of run creation because it doesn’t take into account power or other means by which to reach base other than hits.

I’m not pulling up the stats that back up my point of view. I’m looking at the numbers that matter most to run creation—avoiding outs, power, etc.—and Giles’s age (he’s not far from his peak) and guessing that Giles should be somewhere around the 4th-7th best 2B in the game in 2007…if he’s extremely healthy he should be the 2nd or 3rd best.

By MGL

January 10, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this

I think that if a HOF voter turns in a blank ballot or does not return the ballot, they should loose their eligibility to vote.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 10, 2007 11:05 AM | Link to this

And Missouri this year hurts too. No excuse for the lack of preparation there. Everybody in the state was prepared for the running game except the players.

HEY Grinch, how are the Dawgs gonna treat us next week?

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 11:10 AM | Link to this

O’Brien,

Here’s a quote from Baseball Prospectus’s Nate Silver, who ranked Giles as baseball’s 36th most valuable player at the beginning of ‘06 (if every player were a free agent tomorrow):

36. Marcus Giles, 2B, Atlanta Braves (28)

Hank Aaron played most of his career at 180 pounds. Yogi Berra stood just 5-8, before accounting for his hunchback. In this sense, Giles is a throwback player, using his diminutive stature to his advantage by shrinking his strike zone and taking advantage of his short stroke. The caveat is that smaller players tend to be more susceptible to the cruelties of injury and age — think about what happened to Chuck Knoblauch — but for the time being Giles remains every bit as underrated as his older brother.

This is why I say if healthy, because that’s a given. If healthy, Brian McCann will be the best catcher in the NL—no need to qualify that although I don’t think he’ll be the best if he’s not healthy.

I’ll stop saying “if he’s healthy” and just say this—Giles will be the 4th-7th best 2B in baseball in 2007. If he plays over 150 games, he’ll be the 2nd or 3rd best.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

Ray, agreed on Gwynn _ his numbers in the modern era are insane.

In addition to hitting over .350 in seven different seasons, and striking out fewer than 25 times all but six of his 20 seasons (17 full), he wasn’t just an incredible singles hitter. Most people don’t realize he was a five-time Gold Glove winner, hit more than 25 doubles in 14 seasons, and stole 319 bases, including seasons with 33, 37, 40 and 56 steals.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 11:16 AM | Link to this

Hillbilly, it happens in hoops, though. Not like football. There are going to be one or two inexcusable and/or inexplicable losses for most good teams every year.

Hey, Kansas lost to Oral Roberts and DePaul, worse than Arkansas’ losses by far. And KU’s back up to No. 6 (those were their only losses) going into tonight’s game vs. OSU, the Jayhawks’ first real tough opponent since they beat Florida.

If they come out with another of their occasionally flat performances, the Jayhawks will get waxed by the kid coach Sutton’s team, which is mighty tough.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

Shaun, I like that prediction a lot better. All I’m saying is you can’t justify giving a guy a free pass every year IN CASE he gets hurt. Small or not, the guy’s being paid like other players and teams have to be able to count on their key players, right? So he has to be held and judged by the same standards, especially if he’s to be considerdd an elite player.

David Eckstein is smaller than Giles (just as short, and skinnier), and nobody says “if Eckstein is healthy….”

By Kieran from Long Island

January 10, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this

Good additions to teh Top 20, although i wouldnt put the beastie Boys in tehre, i feel there very overrated, I can live with GnR in a top 20.

I know you said your not a Tool fan, if you ever get a chance give there Latest 2 albums a listen. Outstanding. Lateralus and 10,000 Days definatly take the band in a direction well past their previous albums. Much less dark and much more intelligant, very artistic.

Also you wrote…

“Shaun, don’t want to stir up the Giles debate, but just keep seeing you referring to “if” he’s healthy, etc, he’ll be top five. Well why in the world wouldn’t he be healthy”

maybe “Healthy” isnt the right Idea, maybe we should change “Healthy” to juiced up? I know he was a very popular Brave, but do u think he and his brother are all naturale? When that list of 100 players who Tested positive for steroids comes out be prepared to see Giles y Giles included. In the words of Jeremy Shockey, “Write it down!”

By BigStickyDugoutBooger

January 10, 2007 11:22 AM | Link to this

“If a player is that fragile, that he can be expected to have his performance significantly hindered even if he has no apparent healthy problems entering a season, then he’s not an elite player.”—Does that statement ring true for Chipper Jones also since Braves have been making sure they have a backup player to stand in for him??

By Ray

January 10, 2007 11:23 AM | Link to this

Shaun, See DOB’s comments in regards to the health free pass aspect. DOB beat me to it and there was no reason to re-hash what he had said. Giles is no more injury risk than most of the other players in his category. And you are right batting avg is not the sole stat. I look at OBP way before batting avg and the fact is the guy had a nice little run for about 3 seasons and that was it. Simply stated. And as far as the owners not wanting to pay for him, IF he produced like a top 10 he would get his paper without any hesitation. I guess if he as you put it is Extremely healthy, the stars align properly and a new environment that he will have a solid season. Now the question is will he, can he produce one more season but can he produce next year as well when the “new environment” aspect wears off. I would be pleasantly surprised if he hit .280 with an obp above 330 and more than 15 hr’s. Personally I don’t see him doing that at all. But the season will tell.

By IfChipperIsHealthy

January 10, 2007 11:24 AM | Link to this

yea right…

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 11:32 AM | Link to this

Ray, I do believe Smoltz will get into the Hall. Might take a few years on the ballot, but he’ll get in. My mind was made up after these past two seaons he’s turned in as a starter. I had my doubts when he decided to move back from closer to starter, because I’ll admit I didn’t think he elbow would permit him to pitch 200-plus innings and be a dominant pitcher again every five days. I was wrong.

I thought if he’d stayed in the closer role and had, say, two or three more great seasons as closer, another 80-120 saves, he was a mortal lock for the Hall. But he’s doing it the hard way, like no one else before, going from starter to closer and back to starter. That will be recognized by voters, and his great postseason numbers will definitely be noted by most astute voters.

I’ve got a tremendous amount of respect for Smoltz, not just for what he’s done on the field, but what he puts himself through to be able to go out there every five days. Let me assure you, most people have NO IDEA how much discomfort the dude’s dealing with much of the time. Seriously.

Think about the fact that he’s had that elbow cut or ‘scoped FOUR TIMES _ that in itself is so highly unusual _ and he’s still doing the very unnatural act of pitching a baseball at well over 90 mph, and stressing that elbow further with a nasty slider and still occasional splitter. He’s altered and changed his approach so many times to compensate for injuries, surgeries, age, etc.

Don’t mean to go on too much in praise, but sometimes all of us are guility of losing sight of just how impressive it is, what he’s doing this late in his career.

By the way, he’s not the prominent Brave who I know has been on the blog several times this winter (just in case some think I’m sucking up to him; if I wanted to do that, I’d have ranked him higher in my top 10).

By Ray

January 10, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this

Dave, Gwynn, I know was a writers dream. Ask one question and he goes on. No two word answers out of him. The Ripken stat of playing over 500 games AFTER he broke Gehrig’s streak is amazing to me. Yeah the year Gwynn stole 56 bases he was second in the league in that category. I enjoy when he is on a broadcast. I always feel like I have learned something knew.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this

BigSticky, yes it does. But I didn’t hear anyone arguing here that “if Chipper is healthy, he’ll rank in the top 2-3 third baseman,” like Shaun was doing with Giles. Also, Jones is six years older than Giles and actually does have chronic health issues _ the feet are totally screwed, with the bunions causing all the toe problems (my invitation to JJS to join the dialogue).

By Mets Stink

January 10, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

Did anyone hear the Dan Patrick Show yesterday. I just listened to the Podcast and he and Keith Olberman had some great things to say about Dale Murphy and why he should be in the hall of fame.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 11:52 AM | Link to this

This from the SF Chronicle story after Russ Ortiz signed with them yesterday:

Ortiz’s career tumble — he was 0-8 with an 8.14 ERA for Arizona and Baltimore last year — has been as confounding as it was swift. However, Ortiz said a breakthrough came when he was shipped to the Orioles’ bullpen last summer and pitching coach Leo Mazzone — who had worked with Ortiz in Atlanta — noticed a flaw in the way Ortiz pulled the ball from his glove.

Once Ortiz fixed it, he said, “It’s amazing how that changed everything.”

HUH? He gave up 13 hits, seven earned runs and five homers in 11 innings in September over his final seven appearances (no starts), including two homers in 1-2/3 innings in his last two games.

By Ray

January 10, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

Dave, yes what Smoltz has put himself through is pretty amazing. I typically look behind the scenes and with Smoltz he told everyone that he could and would be a starter. I think his determination and competitive drive is exactly why he wants the ball as a starter instead of sitting in the bullpen and having a chance to control an outcome of a game. To switch gears briefly, I am NOT putting Hampton in the same category as Smoltz but I do believe his strong competitive drive and determination will be one of the reasons he will have a successful year. “IF Healthy.” Sorry I couldn’t resist.

By uuuuuh...prominent Brave

January 10, 2007 12:01 PM | Link to this

uuuuuhhh..ummmmm..uh ah DOB…um uuuuhhhh do you think that uummm, anyone will know that it’s uh…me blogging here?

By Jim

January 10, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

Dale Murphy was my favorite Brave during the 1980’s and I hated to see him traded to the Phils, but Murphy’s numbers do not make him the best Atlanta Brave player or worthy of the HOF. He hit 272 for his career and had only 4 seasons when he hit better than 290. He led the league in strikeouts 3 times and had 130-140+ every year he was healthy. He played in an era when 37 homers could lead the league, but hit over 40 only once. He was a good player and a 2-time MVP, but so was Roger Maris and he’s not in the HOF either. There are other fringe HOFers such as Steve Garvey, Dick Allen, and especially Jim Rice that were better ballplayers, but not necessarily better people, than Dale.

I for one think the Hall should be more selective than it is. If you vote in at least 2 people every year in 100 years there will be 200+ more plaques, and visitors will have a job trying to find Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, and other (should be) unanimous choices amidst all the other (by then) less well-known names. (Incidentally DOB, Joe DiMaggio was not only not a unanimous choice, but he didn’t get in on the first ballot!)

As far as Murphy in the Atlanta Braves pecking order for position players, Chipper and Andruw have put up comparable or better numbers for a longer period of time and should rank ahead of him. Aaron’s best years were in Milwaukee, but he had a number of big years in Atlanta from ‘66 to ‘73, and even an aging Aaron still ranks as the Atlanta Braves top position player in my book.

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 12:10 PM | Link to this

O’Brien and all those who’ve been keeping up with the Giles debate,

Another thing about me saying “if healthy, Giles will be such and such…” A big reason I qualified it is because many think Giles is just an average secondbaseman or worse because he basically had a sub par season.

I guess one of the points I’m trying to make is that a big reason for Giles’s struggles were injuries. And even with those injuries, Giles didn’t have as bad a year as many people think. So my point is, that he should be healthier next year and should be one of the better 2B in the game. I’m trying to emphasize the healthy aspect to bring up the fact that Giles’s struggles were due to injuries.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 10, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Yeah things happen, but Missouri’s coach, Mike Anderson, was the Hogs’ assistant coach for umpteen years. He was Nolan Richardson’s right-hand man throughout the “glory days.” Everybody who knows anything about the Razorbacks knew that his team would try to full-court press us into oblivion. Yet when it came gametime, the team looked surprised, overwhelmed, and absolutely clueless. We honestly looked like a Jr. High team out there, and it was embarrassing to be exposed on ESPN like that. That’s why it still hurts. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not leading a mutiny or anything, but honestly, we haven’t beaten anybody yet except Alabama. We played Texas and Florida pretty tough in losses, Mizzou and Texas Tech both beat the p** out of us. Sweet sixteen is possible because we have some “upside” (how ya’ like me now?), but SEC play will bring out our true colors, whatever they may be. Can you tell I’m not the eternal optimist that Matthew and KC are? Go HOGS!!!

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

I was trying to bring up the point that Giles is one of the 2nd-7th best 2B in the game and as long as he’s relatively healthy in 2007, he will be at his normal level: 2nd-7th best 2B.

I feel like people have forgotten the fact that Giles had injury problems which caused him to have a down year in ‘06; it’s not like he’s a significantly worse player than he was in ‘03-‘05. It seems like some people think Giles just lost it last year for no apparent reason and is not a good player anymore—but a big reason he had a down year was because of health.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 10, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

By the way,

The Jayhawks play Missouri next week, I think. Check it out if you wanna see some good old fashioned hog-ball. Them boys can run and they don’t even have recruits built around Anderson’s style yet, being his first year and all. He’s gonna open up a whole new can of worms to the Big 12 or whatever the conference is called, with this style. Do any other teams in that conference run like that?

By Matthew

January 10, 2007 12:26 PM | Link to this

Hillbilly:

Going into last night, we had an RPI of 7, 7! We have quality wins over Southern Illinois, W VA, Oral Roberts, Tulsa, and Alabama, all of whom are likely headed to the Big Dance. I am an eternal optimist, but I am not an ignorant one. Plus, our SC schedule is top-heavy. Most of our hardest games are in teh first half of the schedule. Survive that, and the back stretch is easier. With that said, Arkansas’ RPI, strength of schedule, and likely wins in the last few SEC games will get us in, and once there anything an happen (see George Mason).

I too hated to see the Mizzou loss, but I bet when they come to Fayetteville next year, there will be a different story. Have faith, Stan the Man will get it done, and we will be a Sweet 16 team this year!

Go Hogs and Braves!

By Ray

January 10, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

No one in baseball believes that Giles is worth risking 5 million dollars whether its injuries causing lack of performance or not. He will have to perform this year to get any large monies next year. I know the Padres have an option year on him in hopes he turns it around.

By DonCoburleone

January 10, 2007 12:30 PM | Link to this

Okay DOB, not a bad list of all time Atlanta Braves. Just got two things regarding that list… 1) Smoltz and Glavine should be flip-flopped, or Smoltz should at least be in the top 5 all time… 2) Javy Lopez? Javy Lopez? There is no way he should even get a sniff of the top 10. I would put Ron Gant, Mark Lemke, Jeff Blauser, Furcal, Steve Avery and maybe even Otis Nixon ahead of J-Lo…

And as far as your music list, well, let’s just say we obviously don’t have the same taste in music… One suggestion however, why is Guns ‘n Roses on your list over Metallica? Metallica was far more influential in the metal genre than GnR was. I mean, outside of the “Appetite for Destruction” album they really only had like 4 or 5 other good songs. Metallica’s 5 albums from 1982 until 1991 (Kill ‘em All, Ride the Lightning, And Justice For All, Master of Puppets, and the black album)were all far superior to anything Guns and Roses ever did…

By dcarp23

January 10, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

The most interesting Brave for the HOF, in my opinion, will be Chipper Jones. I will make the argument that, other than his strikeout rate, Chipper is a more productive player than Tony Gwynn and he played a more demanding position. Gwynn’s career BA is clearly higher, and I think you can attribute that largely to his unbelievable ability to not strike out. He took a number of at bats that would have lead to strikeouts for any number of batters and put them into play, leading to more hits and a better overall average.

However, Chipper has a better career OBP and a much better slugging percentage, plus he played third base rather than the corner outfield. So, I think that if Gwynn is clear cut Hall of Famer, which he was, then Chipper is as well.

By DonCoburleone

January 10, 2007 12:41 PM | Link to this

I do agree with everybody that the SEC is the best conference in college football. However, you guys make it sound like there is no real football outside of the south. The SEC is the best, but it is by no means far superior to the other conferences. Every SEC fan is now quick to point out how LSU and Florida dominated the games they played… Okay, well, what about Arkansas and Tennessee? They lost their bowl games right? And wasn’t Arkansas supposed to be just as good as Florida? Everybody is reading too much into the LSU and Florida wins and not looking at the whole picture…

By MBATL

January 10, 2007 12:46 PM | Link to this

Carroll, I just meant he (Butler) was a disappointment for us - he was a GREAT ballplayer. (same reasoning I used with Sutter, btw). Sorry - I really didn’t mean to put these guys down. And yeah, forgot about Jacoby, a pretty good ballplayer - didn’t we give him up in the same deal, with Butler, for Barker? Wow!)

Going through that reminded me that the Braves did TRY to compete in the bad years. Messersmith, Barker (well, maybe), Sutter, Garber, Esasky, etc… these moves were made to try to get us some big-time talent, but all were either over the hill, got hurt, or otherwise just didn’t help us. Just the opposite of our luck in the ‘90’s, when every moved seemed dipped in gold (of course, JS and BC had a lot to do with that).

By TennesseePaul

January 10, 2007 12:47 PM | Link to this

I can’t believe win shares were brought up again.

I remember back in the day, win shares were big. Chicks were really into them. In fact, I was watching Ken Burns Baseball masterpiece last night and it went into the number of win shares Ty Cobb had and how he fought his whole life to be the number one guy in win shares. Something Hornus Wagner never could manage. Scouts just go out there now-a-days and look at prospects and say… “the win shares this guy is going to put up will be the highest in history”. It’s such a fundamental, tangible, historically significant and highly relevant stat I’m shocked, shocked, that it isn’t on the back of a baseball card.

Payne: If you want to make a case for Giles, do so on the defense and the offense he provides. Show his value with the numbers he puts up. Numbers like 2B, 3B, HR, SB, H, R, OBP, AVG, SLG. Talk about his put-outs, double plays, errors, range, arm. Bring up team spirit, club-house guy, gamer, scrapper, and so on. Don’t introduce win shares. Run creation is a stretch. Especially at the end of a season. He may have a run creation of 250, but he only scored 87. It’s the difference between potential and actual, prospect and proven veteran. I guess that’s why you had so many qualifiers in all your statements. It goes along with the prospect/potential of run creation. If healthy, If very healthy, potentially created X runs. Remember, at the end of the season, when the last out is made, there is no more potential, there is only what was done.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 10, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

I hope your right Matthew. I’d rather you be right, than me.

By Jim

January 10, 2007 01:05 PM | Link to this

MBTAL

Butler was only with the Braves for one year when he was traded. (Player to be named — allowed to complete his season with the Braves and then off to Cleve. with Brook Jacoby (putting up good numbewrs at Rich.)and a pitcher (Rick Behema?) who had a decent start, but hurt his arm and never did anything again. He had a decent first year and would develop into the kind of leadoff hitter the Braves would like to have now!

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 01:16 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

Why are you so against Win Shares or non-traditional stats? People have put a lot of work into them (not just Bill James). Okay, so they may not be perfect, but what stat is? Win Shares and other non-traditional stats are just as reliable or more reliable as a lot of “traditional” stats.

Creating runs is not just scoring and driving in runs.

Win Shares, Runs Created, etc. isn’t about potential. It’s an attempt to measure a player’s total contributions. Many of the traditional stats you are talking about are used to arrive at things like Win Shares or Runs Created. But you reject them because they are not on the back of baseball cards or because people back in Ty Cobb’s day never heard of them or because players are not conscious of them?

Why are you so against trying to measure a player’s contributions? Do you think people just pulls stats out of their rear-ends to come up with this or do you realize that people actually work hard on this stuff to try to come up with how much a player contributes?

By Matthew

January 10, 2007 01:28 PM | Link to this

DonC:

Arkansas would have beaten FLA were it not for a muffed punt. AR outgained WI by a substantial margin, but lost by a field goal. The SEC is far and away the best conference in the USA, and a three point win by WI over AR doesn’t disprove that(I don’t think that was your argument, but I get defensive about the SEC for some reason-I guess its that the ESPN pinheads are so biased against it).

One more point about AR. Their four losses were all to Top Five teams, and only one of them (the USC game that shall never be mentioned) was a game that AR didn’t lead in. This was a great season that leads into a greater one, hopefully.

As far as TN goes, I hope they lose every game (sorry TNPaul-I can’t stand the great pumpkin).

Hillbilly, I have watched AR basketball closely for several years now, and this is first time in almost ten years that I am really excited about a Hog team. Come on, you know you want to be excited. Let it rip!

Go Hogs and Braves!

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 01:31 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

I realize you can tell how good a player is by watching him a lot of times, but why not gather as much information on players as possible—look at stats and watch him and talk to scouts/coaches. There’s not reason to reject one type of evaluation over the other. But people like you say a stat is not relevant unless it is accepted by baseball card manufacturers or players are conscious of them or it’s accepted by people throughout history.

By TennesseePaul

January 10, 2007 01:40 PM | Link to this

If Smoltz can hang on for a few more seasons he’ll be at 3,000 Ks. I think that along with his other stats should ensure him HOF enshrinment. That’d be about 200+ Wins 150+ Saves 3,000Ks and better than 15-4 2.50 ERA in the post season. If he can figure out how to last like Ryan and Clemens, he could hike up those win totals. Once that is over, he could look at going back to the pen until he’s about 55 stacking up another 150-250 saves. Sure fire lock after that. Maybe I’m hoping for too much though… Best take it one step at a time… 3,000Ks and 20 post season wins. 5 more Post Season Wins in October 2007

GO BRAVES

By Hammy the Brave

January 10, 2007 01:47 PM | Link to this

Dave,

I never got your answer on my idea for the Braves to get more veteran bench help by signing Dmitri Young and Phil Nevin.

Don’t you think the Braves need some veteran power bats, and do you think they’d consider signing them?

Also, Billy Shanks seems to think the braves were close to siging a couple of guys to spring training invites, including Bruce Chen. Have you heard the same thing?

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 01:48 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

What confuses me about people like you is you reject the whole concept of advanced statistical analysis on the basis of it goes against traditional statistical analysis. Yes, traditional statistical analysis has worked before but why not try to improve upon it and arrive closer to better ways to evaluate players statistically? What if Ford had said, “well, the Model T does the job so let’s just stop there?” Progress is a good thing, Paul!

By ObiWanKobe

January 10, 2007 01:49 PM | Link to this

We forgot The Flaming Lips!

doh!!

By KPH

January 10, 2007 01:52 PM | Link to this

The best band by far to come out in the last 25 years is Athens Georgias own WIDESPREAD PANIC. The musical talent of these guys far out paces any of the bands on the list. I am a 55 year old rock musician myself and in mine as well as lots of my fellow musicians opinion the talent level of these guys is right up there with the best of all time. With them its not about gimmicks and flashy stage shows its about the music and entertainment being put back into the hands of the artist.

By Phat Bat Boy

January 10, 2007 01:58 PM | Link to this

Living Color

I’m still not certain that the rock world is ready for “that type of band” but I am certain the rock world wasn’t ready 15 years ago when they hit hard with some terrific songs.

“Bob Horner** gets on my list for the 3 homers in 1 game (against the Expos?) and the plaster-to-jaw knockout against the San Diego Padres.

By TennesseePaul

January 10, 2007 02:04 PM | Link to this

Payne: The proper term would be Fundamental, not Traditional. And to put it simply, you’re splitting hairs. Those “stats” aren’t necessary to evaluate a player. You can safely evaluate the player with his actual production without needing to multiply TB H BB and 1/TPA. You could save the time and just look at the real numbers. I know you like to move as far away from the Fundamental Stats as possible, but no amount of meshing and multiplying is going to replace or enhance the number of doubles a guy hit in a season. Sure, it’s a Fundamental stat steeped in Tradition and lore, but it IS the game. A guy gets a Hit. Gets a Double. HR, Triple, Walk. That is what he did on the field. Go to the game, watch him at the bat and you will see him do one of those things. You can choose to over look these feats and accomplishments if you like, but it doesn’t change the fact that the game moves and works on Singles, Doubles, Triples, HR, Rs, IP, W, L, K, BB, HBP, Errors, and so forth. And that one can safely evaluate a player based on his Fundamental output.

Win Shares… I’ll never recognize this. I can’t believe it’s even out there.

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 02:07 PM | Link to this

Morning, all. Hillbilly, Georgia started out 8-1, but has lost four in a row. Granted, two of those four were to top three teams and another was to Clemson (and all were played hard), but our most excellent point guard (Gaines) is playing with torn ligaments in his ankle (which directly coincided with the losing streak). Y’all are catching us at the right time; he’s really the key to our team.

DonC, I agree Metallica’s first FOUR alblums, 1982-89, were better than anything GNR put out. :-)

Dave, Jay’s 10:42 list is exactly what I’m talking about. Shiny Happy People, Superman, Everybody Hurts, and ESPECIALLY Losing my Religion and End of the World…there was a period of about 10 years when I literally couldn’t turn the freaking radio on without hearing one of those songs. Anytime anyone mentiones the name R.E.M. the last chorus of “End of the World” pops up in my head (where it is right now, in fact) where Stipe’s going up high over the top and it stays in an endless loop until I break down and try to come up with something even more annoying to take its place. That, or the image of him snapping his fingers and dancing with himself (Billy Idol would have fun with that one) in an empty room to “Religion.” Now, I’m sure if I’d never turned the radio or MTV/VH1 on, and sat down instead with an REM fan and some choice parts of alblums, I wouldn’t have this problem/impression. Imagine if you will, though, my point of view. It’s not like I critically analyzed every song and live show and determined “They Suck.” I have no idea; I just want those songs out of my head.

By berigan

January 10, 2007 02:10 PM | Link to this

I thought Jason Stark made some interesting points on the HOF vote…

• It sounds like a great thing to say that Cal Ripken attracted the third-highest vote percentage (98.53) of all time. But it’s actually unfathomable — and indefensible — that it wasn’t higher. There were two blank ballots submitted in this election, as steroid protest votes. But what’s the excuse of those other six voters — none of whom had identified or explained themselves as of Tuesday afternoon? As someone who has said it makes more sense to vote for no players of that generation than it does to pick and choose based on guesses and suspicions, I at least have an understanding of why a voter would turn in a blank ballot. But there is no other responsible reason — none — to withhold a vote for Ripken. • And the same goes for Tony Gwynn, who should have been an easier choice than Ripken. Aside from the blank-ballot duo, 11 voters failed to vote for Gwynn — owner of the second-highest career (.338) of any player whose career began in the last 75 years. (Only Ted Williams, at .344, is higher.) For even 11 writers not to have cast a vote for Gwynn is an embarrassment to the BBWAA. *

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 02:25 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

Well, you’ve just revealed your close-mindedness in this area. If you just look at “fundamental” stats you are avoiding the fact that ballparks and leagues and other things have an affect on stats. You are also ignoring the fact that certain “fundamental” stats are more telling than others in terms of production.

But, okay, let’s look at some “fundamental” stats that are very telling.

MGiles 2006: .262 AVG/.341 OBP/ .387 SLG/ 28 years old

Take into account that Giles fought through injuries throughout the 2006 season and the fact that he’s 28, still fairly close to his peak years, and his career rate stats are .285 AVG/.361 OBP/.448 SLG, and we can assume that Giles will rebound to something fairly close to his career averages, at least.

…How’s that for an evaluation of Giles using some “fundamental” stats and just some plain ol’ common sense?

By berigan

January 10, 2007 02:25 PM | Link to this

I have to agree with TennesseePaul on WinShares, OPS, etc…It just doesn’t add anything to my understanding of the game. If other folks love them, hey great, just doesn’t give me any thrills. Quality starts was the last “new” stat that seemed to make a difference to me. And I remember folks then saying, a pitcher with 4.50 ERA after a game , that is a quality start??? But, ERA’s were much lower then! We’d all love to see Tim Hudson have 35 starts in which he gave up 3 runs in 6 innings, right??? ;)

By TennesseePaul

January 10, 2007 02:26 PM | Link to this

Payne: What confuses you about “People Like me” is your assumptions. Win Shares are a bunk stat. It’s not a statistic. It’s a mathematical assumption that is impracticle and physically unprovable.

By DonCoburleone

January 10, 2007 02:27 PM | Link to this

“DonC, I agree Metallica’s first FOUR alblums, 1982-89, were better than anything GNR put out. :-)”

Agreed Grinch, don’t think I can put the black album ahead of “Appetite for Destruction”, not sure what I was thinking there…

So, here are my top 10 favorite bands of the last 25 years…

1)Metallica

2)Pennywise

3)Rob/White Zombie

4)System of a Down

5)Tool

6)Slayer

7)Suicidal Tendancies

8)Social Distortion

9)Rage Against the Machine

10)AC/DC

There’s my list… Honorable mentions include Bad Religion, AFI, Slipknot, Godsmack, Guns ‘n Roses, Nirvana, Soundgarden, HateBreed, Devildriver, NOFX, and Motley Crue…

By dcarp23

January 10, 2007 02:28 PM | Link to this

Berigan-thanks for including that quote. While I agree with Stark on the guys who turned in a ballot ignoring Gwynn and Ripken, I don’t understand why he gives the “protesters” a free pass.

To those writers I say get off of your high horses. Just ridiculous. Using that rationale, I would hope that they wouldn’t vote for Honus Wagner or Lefty Grove because they played in the Racist Era. And I hope they wouldn’t vote for Mickey Mantle or Babe Ruth because they played in eras where it was okay for players to get drunk as p*ss and cheat on their wives. And they shouldn’t vote for Nolan Ryan or Mike Schmidt, because they played in the Cocaine Era.

Just ridiculous…

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 02:41 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

There are no assumptions with Win Shares or Runs Created. It is a calculation—an attempt to measure a player’s total contribution. You can say it’s unreliable or whatever you want to say, but Win Shares and Runs Created combines your “fundamental” stats into one stat.

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 02:41 PM | Link to this

The same problem I have with REM is the same one I have with DMB, Widespread Panic, Blues Traveller and a few others. I’ve been told by people I trust that the three aforementioned bands play a good deal of really excellent music, but that which gets chosen for radio/video airplay (and grossly, grossly overplyed) is not representative in any way. I can buy that. I haven’t heard that about REM from these people, but I’m hearing it from you so I can apply the same logic now. Counting Crows, though…I don’t care what the rest of their stuff sounds like; that whiny-a* singer needs to be pimp-slapped. Good lord, I’ve now got a competition going on in my head for “most annoying overplayed radio song of the 90’s.” Thanks for chiming in Living Color (whoever did earlier); “Cult of Personality” is right in the mix now, too. AAAAUUUGGHHH!

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 02:41 PM | Link to this

Dcarp, regarding that “era” when it was OK for players to get drunk and cheat on their wives _ curious about when you think that one started, and more importantly, when did it end?

By berigan

January 10, 2007 02:43 PM | Link to this

DonCoburleone

Metallica #1, yet no mention of Megadeth??? How unlike a Metallica fan! ;) Ok, if no Megadeth, why no Anthrax, even as an honorable mention????

By dcarp23

January 10, 2007 02:55 PM | Link to this

DOB-well put. I just chose two players whose drinking habits and philandering (sp?) are well documented, and I’d say that era lasted roughly from 1860 to 2006. As it does in society as well-not picking on ballplayers by any means because we’re all guilty of something or another.

But the moral highground that those two patriots/martyrs/champions for the common man took, please…

By the way, one of those writers is found here: http://www.dailysouthtown.com/sports/ladewski/201907,081LAD2.article

I like how he figured out that the Steroid Era lasted from 1993-2004. I don’t know why we’re wasting George Mitchell’s time-we should just hire this guy.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 02:56 PM | Link to this

Grinch, I want most of those songs out of my head, too. At least 4-5 of them. I actually thought he was kidding with that list, since to me includes the only annoying 4-5 songs that REM ever recorded during about a 15-year span. As a couple other REM-heads here have noted, their biggest-selling singles, with the exceptions of Losing My Religion and Man on the Moon (great songs), were their most annoying songs and weren’t at all representative of their other, serious work.

But enough of that explanation. Anybody who knows the band knows that Shiny Happy People, End of the World and Stand were just about the worst (in fact, Shiny Happy People and Stand were THE WORST) songs they ever did and completely out of character with their other music. But I hardly need to defend REM _ the damn band just got elected to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame by 1,000 folks who know a hell of a lot more about music than I do (musicians, recording folks, critics, music writers).

Oh, and I’d like to see one rock critic from all those hard-rock magazines agree with you in your assessment that Metallica’s first four albums were better than anything GnR ever put out. Or find one rocker from a respected heavy band to agree with that assessment, that Metallica’s first four albums were better than Appetite for Destruction. Dude, did you ever HEAR Appetite for Destruction? My god, I can only deduce that you didn’t, making that statement.

By DonCoburleone

January 10, 2007 02:56 PM | Link to this

Ooooh, Berigan you are right about Megadeth. I wouldn’t put them top 10 but for me to leave them off the “honorable mention” list is a travesty and a horrible oversight on my part. Anthrax, hmm, I’d have to be convinced of that one, never was an Anthrax fan…

By MBATL

January 10, 2007 02:57 PM | Link to this

Grinch, I was in Athens when REM was playing the clubs there - actually only saw them once back in those days, but always followed them pretty closely and saw them later in bigger venues - if all I’d heard of them was the songs you mentioned (and some of their other ‘hits’), I’d probably feel just like you about them. But instead, they’re in my top 2 or 3 all time. Can’t really blame a band for capitalizing a little …

Judging REM on Shiny Happy People is like judging the Allman Brothers on Ramblin Man. Oh well!

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 02:57 PM | Link to this

DonC, I’ve actually got those two alblums about even in my book; I’m just one of those Metallica fans that feels the first four were on a different level than anything else. BTW, thanks for mentioning Zombie; like Pantera that’s one I can’t believe I overlooked. Have you seen “House of 1000 Corpses” or The Devil’s Rejects?” Zombie’s not a bad filmmaker. Even though he ripped his early look off from Al Jourgensen of Ministry (crap, there’s another great band I forgot) he’s still definitely an innovator.

Berigan, I feel the same way about Megadeth’s first four. Anthrax…love “Among the Living” (classic, pioneering LP); didn’t listen to them much after the late 80’ (like an awful lot of bands).

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 03:01 PM | Link to this

Also, AC/DC’s been out since the mid-seventies. They were a huge band with several alblums out when Bon Scott died, and he was replaced with Brian Johnson on “Back in Black” in 1980. WAY too early.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 03:04 PM | Link to this

ObiWan, I mentioned the Flaming Lips in the original blog itself.

By berigan

January 10, 2007 03:06 PM | Link to this

Grinch

I’m in your corner with REM. I have heard a few songs that weren’t too bad(Though I can’t think of their titles now…hmmmm) But come on man! Cult of Personality was a good song! And it came out in the 80’s, not the 90’s! Better than the other tripe from the late 80’s. Perhaps it was overplayed.

By Jim

January 10, 2007 03:11 PM | Link to this

A quick look at Ripken’s stats from ‘83 (his 2nd year) — ‘95 ages 23 - 35 (his prime years)— cum stats over this period BA = 276, SA = 453, RBI = 1267, HR = 327, R = 1272, H = 2371 Theses are HOF stats for a SS but look at the year-to-year totals:

YR BA H HR RBI R

83 318 211 27 102 121

84 304 195 27 88 103

85 282 181 26 110 116

86 282 177 25 98 81

87 252 157 27 98 97

88 264 152 23 81 87

89 257 166 21 93 80

90 250 150 21 84 78

91 323 210 34 114 99

92 251 160 14 72 73

93 257 165 24 90 87

94* 315 140 13 75 71

95 262 144 17 88 71

*112 games in strike shortened season

Certainly HOF numbers for a SS, but from ‘87 on, except for ‘91 his numbers decline to an average of about .260 BA, 85-95 RBI, about 160 hits and 85 runs (starting at 27 yrs old). My point is not that he is not worthy of the hall, but that the streak that defined him also probably hurt his numbers, and by extension his team. The same could also be said for Murphy’s consecutive game streak, and more to the point, playing 162 games last year probably hurt Francouer’s production in Sept. Ripken’s streak is one that probably won’t be broken, but neither SHOULD it be broken. A player will help hgimself and his team more by taking the ocaisional day off than playing every day!

By berigan

January 10, 2007 03:18 PM | Link to this

Don C, and Grinch, Glad to see you guys aren’t like some Metallica fans(And of course Megadeth fans) that feel you can only like one band or the other. I have grown to really like Rob Zombie’s music. I like that kind of music when working out, and have been playing his cds more and more of late.

As much as I like Megadeth and Metallica, I am in DOB’s corner when it comes to Appetite for Destruction. I’d still say it was the best album of the 80’s! So much pure energy in that album…I mean record…I mean cd!!!(Actually, I wore out the cassette version first, Now I have the MFSL “gold” cd, not any better than the regular cd, which is very unlike MFSL cds)

By TheSouthernJackAss

January 10, 2007 03:22 PM | Link to this

Forgive me for veering from the usual music drivel and pie recipes for a moment—‘player contracts’—all player contracts should be based on performance—take Mike Hampton for instance, earning on average $15.125 mil. per annum—that’s $30.250 mil. the last 2 seasons, all while his a$$ rode the pine all but 69.1 innings—that’s $437,771.34 per inning pitched!…Absolutely unbelievably ridiculous!…if players were paid accordingly with their performance I would say that recovery time for some of these ‘injuries’ would be much less, and they just might show up in the spring in much better physical condition…more clean living and physical conditioning—less a partyin’, a huntin’, and a golfin’!!!…

By Lew

January 10, 2007 03:24 PM | Link to this

Shaun-You mention that the person who came up with Win Shares put a lot of work into his theories. So did the person who did the painting with cow manure. The hard work didn’t make it smell any better and it didn’t make it art, either.

By TennesseePaul

January 10, 2007 03:24 PM | Link to this

But, okay, let’s look at some “fundamental” stats that are very telling
Take into account that Giles fought through injuries

Lovely fundamental statistic there. How do they chalk that up, would it be 2 IJs for injuries? What’s the acceptable factoring level when looking at the IJs and the H, 2B, 3B, HR, and so forth?

you are avoiding the fact that ballparks and leagues and other things have an affect on stats

No more so than Win Shares ignore the opponent who has one of the biggest impacts on the success or failure of the player. Wins are a team award. I see that handed out all the time from you, and I don’t disagree. You shouldn’t entirely base a judgment on a pitcher by his W/L (nor should you entirely discount them from his worthiness). But how is it, the W and L are not reliable, but now a fraction of a W is reliable? And that Fraction isn’t even real, it’s a mathematical assumption. A physically un-provable one at that.

No need to get your panties in a wad Payne, I appreciate your contributions and posts, I just don’t think Win Shares are worth using to evaluate a player. I think you can do just as well without them. You’re splitting hairs at that point. Except with Win Shares, those are bunk. And it begs the question, what is the Loss Share? And further, wouldn’t it be best to analize the Win/Loss Share Percentage?

By the way, I love the quoted Fundamental. Nice. The pitcher took the ball in his glove and threw it to the catcher for a “strike.” On the next pitch, the batter “hit” the ball into the outfield for a “double.” The runner at second then “stole a base” to end up at third. The next batter was “hit by a pitch.” The pitcher then “walked” the following batter to load the bases. The Runner at third later scored a “run” when his teammate hit a “single” to left. Russ Ortiz was promptly removed from the “game” and given his outright “release.”

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 03:25 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Dave; I’d forgotten “Stand.” It has now trumped all the other songs vying for attention in my head and playing at full volume. Ok, so now that I hear that from you and Berigan, I’ll take your word for it. As for “Appetite;” you must have missed me making a spirited defense of Slash last night based on my viewing of them live during that tour. While that alblum (which I had in both tape and cd form at one point or another) is totally played out for me now, I feel I can still view it objectively. Great alblum, no doubt. Very influential. But then the same can also be said for Metallica’s first four, without which heavy/death/speed metal would’ve likely never have made it much past the garage. Arguing who’s a better guitarist between Slash and Kirk is purely subjective; seen ‘em both live and they’re both phenomenal. Totally different styles; apples and oranges. Same can be said in comparison of the whole band(s) at that time (though AXL has more range than Hetfield). Since, however, I view Appetite as GNR’s ONLY great alblum (they had a few good songs afterward, but no truly great alblums IMO), and Metallica had four in a row, then I must conclude those four to be a greater “body” of work than GNR’s one. Sorry, just my opinion. Please don’t go back to calling me an uninformed idiot for expressing it.

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 03:26 PM | Link to this

Jim,

Players generally start declining in their late 20’s. I’m not sure if it would have mattered had he taken a day off…we’ll never know. But he was still better than most players at his position up until the streak ended, so I doubt he hurt his teams by playing everyday.

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 03:34 PM | Link to this

Berigan, I agree “Cult” was a good song, but the second half of it is quite repititious and it was GROSSLY overplayed. Speaking of working out…off to the gym.

But first, DOB: While looking at what critics have to say is definitely worthwhile (I make my living now, such as it is, as a critic), it’s not what I think about when I reach for whatever cd I want to hear. I think about what cd I want to hear. May I remind you critics also loved “Shakespeare in Love “and “Titanic?” BTW, that isn’t a stab at “Appetite” (which I already agreed is a great alblum), but rather as a means of argument. I don’t listen to a cd and think “Man, this alblum RAWKS!”, then read Peter Travers saying it sucks, then suddenly say “Well, I guess it must suck.” Can’t we just keep this subjective?

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 03:36 PM | Link to this

Didn’t plan on getting back to that.

But gotta say, the REM thing’s gone long enough. Just silly to sit here and debate that band. I mean, you love ‘em or you don’t. I respect your opinion, though you get way too technical for my tastes when it comes to comparing guitarists’ proficiency, or the range of lead singers, etc. To me, the band sounds good or they don’t, and a lot of the best hard bands have front men with voices that aren’t technically good, but are just great rock voices.

But I’ve just gotta say this: While I can surely understand and comprehend all sorts of music lovers, those who love Metallica and hate Belle and Sebastian or Death Cab for Cutie, those who love Widespread Panic and can’t stand more over-produced, commercial-sounding bands, etc., I simply can’t get my head around the fact that any person who listened to a wide range of popular music in the past three decades could listen to songs like Begin The Begin, Driver 8 and Pretty Persuasion and not “get” the fact that REM was an incredibly strong band that was hugely popular at the advent of “alt-rock” or “college” radio for a reason. Because they were freakin’ great.

By berigan

January 10, 2007 03:38 PM | Link to this

I know folks are just DYING to see my top ten list…or not…but anywho, did anyone mention the Cult??? They had some great albums in the 80s, Electric is one of my top 5 records.

As for Anthrax, I actually like the 2nd singer(John Bush) more than the first. He is more a typical hard rock singer, but folks were paying much less attention to them when he came on board. From their 1993 cd Sound of White Noise, Room for One More. (Honest Grinch, not another REM vid!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J4Lovs6UyM

and a review so glowing of the album, you’d think they paid for it…from allmusic…. Anthrax replaced longstanding vocalist Joey Belladonna with John Bush (of Armored Saint) and released the surprisingly melodic and predictably pummeling Sound of White Noise. Producer Dave Jerden, who had worked with Bush on the last Armored Saint disc as well as releases for Alice in Chains and Jane’s Addiction, helped Anthrax channel its energy into the shape of the post-Seattle metal sound. This ostracized some fans and attracted others, but the change is incidental; the music is relentless, like a brigade of tanks, and chances are you’ll be too busy running for your life to worry who’s at the wheel. Sound of White Noise cudgels the listener like nothing since Among the Living; Charlie Benante’s drums are everywhere they want to be, a hailstorm of thundering blows backed up by Frank Bello’s basslines. The guitars of Dan Spitz and Scott Ian forsake their usual showmanship for a sludgier attack that’s downright brutal, although some will miss the solos that were often the highlights of their earlier work. And many enjoy the vocals of Bush; he has a lower-register voice than Belladonna, and the result is menacing, premeditated, and sinister. When he sings on “Hy Pro Glo” that “I’ll beat you into overload,” you know he and the band will carry it through. There are so many good songs on Sound of White Noise that no two fans seem to agree on their favorites. “Only” is the obvious choice, “Invisible” and “Room for One More” are hard to argue with, “Hy Pro Glo” and “1000 Points of Hate” are too hot to contain, and even the cooled-down “Black Lodge” has its admirers. The infusion of melody into their metal gives the material a lot more personality than their last effort, Persistence of Time, though the lyrics are just as dark. True, Sound of White Noise isn’t a peerless, groundbreaking album like Among the Living or I’m the Man, but it does return them to the esteemed state of metal masters (alongside Metallica and Megadeth) that is their birthright.

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 03:38 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

I’m not sure what you are talking about in terms of injuries. But I think you are taking things too far. Do you want me to rely more on stats when analyzing Giles or less? You criticize me for relying too much on stats, then you criticize me for not coming up with a stat for injuries?

And Win Shares is a measure of win contribution. It’s a measure of production in terms of how much a player contributes to wins. You are criticizing a stat for not being perfect and I don’t pretend that stats are perfect. But neither is any other form of player evaluation.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 03:39 PM | Link to this

Grinch, knew you’d jump on the critics’ line (why is that that some people have such disdain for critics, and I mean respected critics whose tastes might mirror your own?), which is why I added, find a rocker, a hard rocker from a good band in the past 20 years, to agree with the assessment that Metallica’s first four albums were better than anythin GnR ever put out. That’s all. That’s it. If you don’t like critics, fine, then ask someone who makes hard-rock music for a living. Or do they not know much, either?

Dude, can’t win an argument with you on a few things. No biggie. I’m stubborn, too. Just not quite as unbending.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 03:40 PM | Link to this

Yeah, we can keep it subjective: REM is great, and to judge them based on Stand is beyond ridiculous.

Peace.

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 03:41 PM | Link to this

Good, god. I was on my way out the door ‘till I saw Shaun’s 3:26 post. Player’s start declining in their late 20’s so it might not matter if they take a day off? I guess since I’m 33 there’s no point in me having weekends off to recharge anymore because I’m too old for rest to help my body renew itself. I promised myself that I would stay out of the sabremetrics conversations and I have, but please tell me you aren’t really so completely detatched from the human race that you actually believe that statement.

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 03:43 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

I prefer to evaluate players by taking into account AVG, OBP, SLG, age, playing time, ballpark and league. I think that does a pretty good job and is pretty simple. But I’m not sure all of those things are on the back of baseball cards or mattered when Ty Cobb was playing.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 03:44 PM | Link to this

Dcarp, agreed. That writer from the Chicago ‘burbs is looking a bit asinine today with that reasoning for his blank Hall of Fame ballot.

By CatFight

January 10, 2007 03:45 PM | Link to this

It’s another DOB/Grinch catfight!

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 03:47 PM | Link to this

By the way, Cash Night is Thursday (and all Thursdays, I believe) at Aces Bar & Grille on Hosea L. Williams Dr. in Atlanta.

As the ad says, “Featuring the music of Johnny Cash, Willie, Waylon, David Allan, Merle, Hank Sr. & Hank III.”

The ad should also say: It don’t get much better ‘an that.

By DOB

January 10, 2007 03:49 PM | Link to this

DOB would probably just love to find a “hard rocker”!

By DonCoburleone

January 10, 2007 03:49 PM | Link to this

“Dude, did you ever HEAR Appetite for Destruction? My god, I can only deduce that you didn’t, making that statement.”

As a matter of fact I OWN the album DOB. And who are these “heavy” experts you are talking about? What about this book (Top 500 Metal Albums of All Time), by Martin Popoff, The top 10 are:

1)Master of Puppets

2)Number of the Beast

3)Reign in Blood

4)Ride the Lightning

5)Back in Black

6)Paranoid

7)Operation: Mindcrime

8)Piece of Mind

9)Van Halen

10)Appetite for Destruction

There you go DOB, there is one top 10 list (from a real metal critic) that has 2 of the 4 Metallica albums ahead of “Appetite for Destruction”. I agree Appetite for Destruction is a great album, but if you say it is easily better than the first 4 Metallica albums, then I ask you, have YOU ever heard any of METALLICA’S first four albums?

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 03:55 PM | Link to this

I know; I’m still arguing while I’m agreeing and criticising critics while admitting I’m a critic. Doesn’t make me a hypocrite since I went into those details…and I thought I went into them enough to appease you. Guess not. Anyhoo, as you say; no biggie. BTW, I haven’t heard any of those three songs you mentioned; I already admitted to you and Berigan both that I’m sure you’re right. I’ve also spent a good deal of time around musicians (and I may say humbly I’m not the worst guitarist on the planet); I’ve heard as many arguments about who was better between Metallica and GNR than just about anything (and no, I’ve NEVER heard anyone put down “Appetite”…neither did I), as well as many who love them both. They’re ALL right. Time to cue some free love music from the 60’s. :-)

Berigan, saw the Cult (Sonic Temple tour) open for Metallica (Justice tour) at Lakewood; great show. The gym awaits.

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 03:57 PM | Link to this

The Grinch,

Well, if you want to ignore the evidence, ignore the evidence. Baseball players generally peak around 26 or 27 then start to decline. The evidence is out there.

Actually, athletes in other sports that rely more on pure athletic ability (sprinting, etc.) peak in their early 20’s. That’s when your body is in its best shape, generally speaking. There are exceptions, I’m sure.

And of course some people may take better care of themselves later or earlier, so they may perform better at different ages. But all things being equal, evidence shows that those ages are when baseball/athletes players peak.

Are you so detached from the human race so much to realize that age does take it’s toll on the human body and mind?

Notice I didn’t say baseball players are worthless after their late 20’s. I said that’s when they generally start to decline. If you are an amazing player in your late 20’s, you may merely be just under amazing but still great in your early 30’s.

By journalist jimmy smith

January 10, 2007 04:01 PM | Link to this

now, favorite performers:

manhattan transfer, lambert hendricks & ross, michael feinstein, bette midler, johnny mathis, liberace, edith piaf, charles aznavour, judy garland, and of course - babs.

now, journalist will make some hot chocolate and listen to new diana krall album on ipod.

By Robert

January 10, 2007 04:04 PM | Link to this

GnR’s ROCKED in the early days. Their best stuff

1.Rocket Queen 2.Acoustic version of You’re Crazy 3.Breakdown 4.One in a Million

Now, to the important stuff

The all-ugly team

Randy Johnson is the ace. Zane Smith and Rick Mahler make the rotation.

Don Zimmer is manager

Nominations now being accepted

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 04:09 PM | Link to this

DonC, unless I’m missing something, that’s two Metallica albums they ranked ahead of Appetite, not Metallica’s first four. That was my point. Read it again.

And if I wanted to, I’m sure I could find five polls that rank Appetite as one of the best 3-4 of all time. But I don’t want to, don’t need to, don’t care. All I said was it was I doubt anyone, critic or hard-rock musician from any noted band, would agree that Metallica’s first four were better than “anything GnR ever produced” or however you or Grinch put it. That’s it. All I said. End of rather silly debate.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 04:11 PM | Link to this

Robert, the closer on the all-ugly team is, without question, without a shadow of a doubt, Antonio Alfonseca, aka “Pulpo (octopus)”, aka “12 fingers,” aka “12 toes.”

By Robert

January 10, 2007 04:12 PM | Link to this

Netallica vs GnR - “better” in what respect?

Musically? You start talking musically and bands like Queensryche, Rush, and Yes are light years ahead of the field

But musical ability isnt really what being a rock band, particualrly a hard rock or metal band, is all about

I lost a lot of respect for Metallica over their stance on the copywright issue. By god, if you SELL me a piece of plastic, I’m gonna do whatever the fork I want to with it, and with what’s on it.

anyway

By Lew

January 10, 2007 04:13 PM | Link to this

Berigan-The Cult is great-Electric and Sonic Temple are true classics. I repeat my top ten Hard Rock Bands that just don’t get Any Love At All-1. Rock City Angels 2. Tora Tora 3. Dirty Looks 4. Zodiac Mindwarp and the Love Reaction 5. Buck Cherry 6. Three Days Grace 7.Asphalt Ballet 8. Dangerous Toys 9.Junkyard 10. The Offspring.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 04:16 PM | Link to this

DonC, just saw the last line of your post, had to comment. You said, “If you say it is easily better than the first 4 Metallica albums, then I ask you, have YOU ever heard any of METALLICA’S first four albums?”

Why are you freakin’ changing what I said to suit your point? Please, dude, don’t argue with me if you’re just going to change what I said.

I never said it was “easily better than the first 4 Metallica albums.” How did you infer that out of what I said? I mean, not even close, Don. Try to at least make it close if you’re going to twist my words.

I said to find a critic or hard-rock musician that would agree that Metallica’s first four albums were better than Appetite. How the hell you got what you claim I said out of that statement, I have no idea.

By Robert

January 10, 2007 04:18 PM | Link to this

What constitutes great music?

Whatever floats your boat.

It’s an interpretation of artistic output. It’s subjective

In 6th grade, we used to get all in a tizzy about things like whether Sabbath was better or cooler than Aerosmith

From where I sit, put me on a desert island and tell me I can have ten hard rock albums, and Appetite makes my list. So do AIC’s dirt and Van Halen I

If you dont like my list, go find your own desert island

By MBATL

January 10, 2007 04:18 PM | Link to this

Be glad you’re not a Pirates’ fan:

While it would seem on the surface that the Pirates haven’t tried terribly hard to upgrade a team that has lost 95 games each of the last two seasons and hasn’t had a winning season since 1992, manager Jim Tracy is fine with his club’s relative inactivity this winter.

From timesonline.com

By TennesseePaul

January 10, 2007 04:36 PM | Link to this

Payne: Not critism for the injuries. Just curious, you said you were looking at, as you put it, “Fundamental” stats. Injuries aren’t a stat. Neither is Win Share. It isn’t a Statistic. It’s a calculation. A calculation based on assumption that has no real physical meaning. Notice, when I mentioned Fundamental stats, I didn’t list the averages, those two are calculations, but have way more physical meaning than Win Share. What I’d want is simple, drop the Win Share argument. Pull up OPS, OBP, APS, AVG, ERA, K/BB and so on. Whatever, just not win share, it’s meaningless.

Average was a big thing for Ty Cobb. Being the first one in the Bath before anyone else was a big thing for Ty. The guy was nuts and an @sshole on top of that.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 04:38 PM | Link to this

DonC, just did a google for “best hard-rock albums” and here’s a couple of lists it produced. I’m not editing them, not picking and choosing, just grabbing the first couple I see because I ain’t going to spend all day on this:

First, from something called “scaruffi.com”

1. Led Zeppelin: I (1969)

2. MC5: Back In The USA (Atlantic, 1970)

3. Soundgarden: Superunknown (A&M, 1994)

4. Pearl Jam: Vs (Epic, 1993)

5. Jane’s Addiction: Nothing’s Shocking (WB, 1988)

6. Guns’n’Roses: Appetite For Destruction (Geffen, 1987)

7. AC/DC: Highway To Hell (1979)

8. Black Sabbath: Master Of Reality (1971)

9. Blue Cheer: Vincebus Eruptum (Philips, 1968)

10. Deep Purple: Machine Head (1972)

(Gotta admit, never heard of scaruffi.com, but like that list, especially inclusion of MC5 outta the Motor City. True pioneers in subversive hard rock)

And from Amazon.com.uk: Listmania! “best hard rock albums ever”

1. Master of Puppets, Metallica

2. Ride the Lightning, Metallica

3. Brave New World, Iron Maiden

4. Appetite for Destruction, Guns & Roses

5. Countdown to Extinction, Megadeth

(they had a couple more great Metallica albums near the top, Kill ‘Em All and And Justice for All.

and one more, from something called “rateyourmusic.com,” which calls its list “the 100 greatest hard rock albums (classic rock & metal hammer)” whatever that means.

1. Appetite for Destruction, Guns & Roses

2. Led Zeppelin IV

3. Toxicity, System of a Down

4. Master of Puppets, Metallica

5. Nevermind, Nirvana

6. Back in Black, AC/DC

7. Aenima, Tool

8. Physical Graffiti, Led Zeppelin

9. Paranoid, Black Sabbath

10. Korn (self-titled)

As you can see, there’s a very wide range out there, of of different opinions. What I noticed looking at these lists is that most critics or folks taking these surveys don’t seem to limit themselves to a strict genre (speed metal, or heavy metal, or whatever) when deciding what’s good or not. They vote on hard rock and know what that is when they hear it.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 04:39 PM | Link to this

Robert, I agree with your assessment of the whole matter.

By ObiWanKobe

January 10, 2007 04:46 PM | Link to this

Dave, You ever checked out a band called The Cold War Kids? Worth a look!

By Robert

January 10, 2007 04:48 PM | Link to this

One thing about Antonio Alfonseca

He always gave 120 percent

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 10, 2007 04:55 PM | Link to this

Amen, Robert, …..A-Freakin-men finally light at the end of the tunnel. Although, I wouldn’t have those three albums on my island, but I agree with your view of the whole damn situation. That’s why I haven’t commented on the music matter at all. It’s all a matter of opinion, and nobody gives a crap about mine, so I’m keeping my list to myself.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 04:57 PM | Link to this

ObiWan, got the Cold War Kids album a couple weeks ago. Really, really good. Very original sound.

Also, I’d highly recommend the new Ron Sexsmith CD that came out Tuesday. It ranks with his best work, and I really believe he’s one of our best living songwriters. He’s also playing at Smith’s Olde Bar next Saturday. Should be outstanding show.

(An aside: I was surprised when my man Don at Ella Guru informs me that Sexsmith is at least 6-feet-5. From his voice, you’d never suspect that. Not that it means anything, but I found it interesting.)

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 05:03 PM | Link to this

Screw it; the traffic’s outrageous. Guess I’ll go in the morning, even though I had other plans.

Robert, I have long since lost all respect for Metallica. I don’t know who these people are. I DO know who they were in the 80’s and I loved their music and what they stood for. When their bass player died in 1987, the concience of the band went with him. It only took two or three years for them to start selling out afterward. If he were still here, they would’ve released their last half-dozen alblums on-line so the music could get to the masses easier and told the record company to shove it. Different band altogether.

Shaun, I don’t disagree that people’s body’s age…a guy who could run a 4.43 second 40-yard dash when he was 28 (all other things being exactly equal) might only be able to run a 4.48 when he’s 32. Sure. That’s not what you said. You essentially said that the body is so far gone naturally at 28 (how old Giles was last year) that resting wouldn’t have even helped him heal. Sorry, dude; that’s one of the most off the wall statements I’ve ever heard in any context.

By Antonio Alfonseca's Mother

January 10, 2007 05:03 PM | Link to this

Mr. O’Brien:

Yo gots no call saying mi nino is the ugliest of the uglY. Let’s see yo puts yo ugly mug aqui!!

By journalist jimmy smith

January 10, 2007 05:07 PM | Link to this

journalist’s good name has been taken again by the sda stinky blogger who suggests this journalist listens to babs. first, babs was in town recently and did not even call journalist! so jimmy smith is not studying babs. now, music … why has the jimmy smith band not been mentioned? hammond b3. back at the chicken shack. midnight special. and what of this spat between dob and the grinch? it began over speaker size … hmmm….

now, baseball … someone says chipper is first ballot hof? perhaps this will happen. then again, perhaps chipper will go toe-to-toe with another candidate in the first round and be short some toes. nothing certain - just a rumor.

By Scalp 'Em Braves

January 10, 2007 05:08 PM | Link to this

Grinch:

As I was reading through, I was going to point out you left “Stand” off of your list of cheesy, overexposed REM songs, then saw that DOB straightened that out in a later post - I agree… the song drives me nuts. The only reason I ever listened to it was the video, so I could watch the B-52 chick shake it - eventually just turned the sound down.

Lew - your analogy referring to cow manure nailed it man. It is what it is, no matter how one wants to dress it up.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 05:16 PM | Link to this

I’m a big proponent of some sabermetrics stuff, and I think OPS (on-base plus slugging percentage) and WHIP (walks and hits per inning) are more informative and important stats than a lot of the old, conventional stats (to me, OPS is usually a better gauge than batting average). But the stat-geeks lose me with “win shares.” I mean, can you imagine how many of our regular readers would be scratching their heads (including me) if I included “win shares” in a story for the paper?

That’s just such an esoteric stat, it’ll never catch on with the vast, vast majority of fans. Computing or explaining win shares makes QB ratings seem like fifth-grade math by comparison. And Shaun, that’s NOT an invitation to explain win shares. People’s heads are already too numb from work, I’m sure. Don’t want to push us over the deep end.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 05:22 PM | Link to this

Jimmy Smith on Jimmy Smith _outstanding! You’re right, your namesake could play that Hammond better than anyone alive. Got “The Fantastic Jimmy Smith” right here in the basement-office CD rack.

By DonCoburleone

January 10, 2007 05:24 PM | Link to this

“I never said it was “easily better than the first 4 Metallica albums.” How did you infer that out of what I said? I mean, not even close, Don. Try to at least make it close if you’re going to twist my words.”

Fair enough, you did not say that, but what I mean is DOB, one great album does not a great band make. So to put Guns ‘n Roses ahead of Metallica on your list of top bands over the last 25 years infers (to me anyway) that “Appetite for Destruction” is better than the sum of all Metallica albums…

If that is really how you feel than that’s your opinion and I won’t change it. But if you want to say that as a band GnR is better than Metallica simply because of one great album, I will call that statement ridiculous…

By Ray

January 10, 2007 05:26 PM | Link to this

Okay I leave for a few hours and the GIles thing is still going on. ughhh and with the added twist of Win shares. Now come on.. a player starts to lose his value his peak in his late 20’s. EVERY SCOUT and GM will tell you that is when they start hitting their peak. 26-33. That 7 year window is when you can expect to get the most out of a player. YES of course there are exceptions. Geez Wade Boggs spent 6-8 years in the minors. Now in regards to mr. Ripken. Everyone has said for many many years, IF he had taken a few days off throughout his career, his numbers would be much much better right across the board. The fact is that he wasn’t just playing 5-6 innings to keep the streak going. He played in over 93% of the innings of each game. I think that % is even higher. But the point is, your body takes a beating and he had the wear and tear. However without the streak, his numbers are still hof material. The streak is just his signature. The bottom line he revolutionized the position of SS. Yes there were a few before his time like Banks, but not his size and his power and his ability. One year he committed what 3 errors at short. That is insane in itself.

By Jon E. Klinkel

January 10, 2007 05:28 PM | Link to this

Jim,

You are pretty much proving my point for me, even by disagreeing.

Yes, Murphy had a lot of strikeouts and yes, he didn’t have a great career batting average but he does still lead the “Atlanta” Braves in several major statistical categories.

Your great years you say Aaron had as an Atlanta Brave were not as good as Murphy’s Atlanta years. You also cannot compare batting averages. They played in different decades/eras. The ball flies and homeruns are commonplace now. He hit 398 without steroids and the super-balls they use now. He ruled a decade. Neither Chipper NOR Andruw Jones have done that.

Hank Aaron and Dale Murphy are Atlanta Braves icons. No question. Hank Aaron was the best Milwaukee Brave. Dale Murphy was the best Atlanta Brave. Where Aaron falls behind him on the list is up for debate but Murphy being #1 shouldn’t be - and isn’t to many people, especially those IN baseball.

Put Murphy’s numbers (along with awards and accolades - don’t leave those out, especially annual rankings) up against Chipper Jones, Andruw Jones and Hank Aaron and see what you come up with. You might surprise yourself. And when you compare season totals, take into consideration what the league leaders did and then what THEY did in comparison in those years. That is the only way to truly compare.

Chipper Jones: All-Star - 5 times; MVP 1999 (top-10 four other times); Silver Slugger - 2 times; Batting Average Top 10 - 3 times; On Base % Top 10 - 5 times, Slugging % Top 10 - 2 times; Games Played Top 10 - 5 times; Runs Top 10 - 6 times; Hits Top 10 - 2 times; Total Bases Top 10 - 3 times; Doubles Top 10 - 2 times; Home Runs Top 10 - 3 times; RBI Top 10 - Once; BB Top 10 - 8 times; Intentional Walks Top 10 - 4 times; Power/Speed Top 10 - 4 times. Those are some pretty darn good numbers!!

Andruw Jones: All-Star - 5 times; Gold Glove - 9 times; Silver Slugger - Once; MVP Top 10 - 2 times; Slugging % Top 10 - Once; Games 1999 (Top 10 four other times); At-Bats 2000 (Top 10 one other time); Runs Top 10 - Once; Hits Top 10 - Once; Total Bases Top 10 - 2 times; Triples Top 10 - Once; Home Runs 2005 (Top 10 three other times); RBI 2005 (Top 10 two other times); Stolen Bases Top 10 - Once; Intentional Walks Top 10 - 2 times; Power/Speed Top 10 - 3 times. Not bad, but not as good as Chipper - at least offensively.

Hank Aaron as an Atlanta Brave: All-Star 10 Times; MVP Top 10 - 4 times; Batting Average Top 10 - 2 times; On Base Percentage Top 10 - 3 times; Slugging % 1967, 1971 (Top 10 five other times); Games Top 10 - 3 times; At Bats Top 10 - Once; Runs 1967 (Top 10 five other times); Hits Top 10 - 2 times; Total Bases 1967, 1969 (Top 10 three other times); Doubles Top 10 - 3 times; Home Runs 1966, 1967 (Top 10 six other times); RBI 1966 (Top 10 five other times); BB Top 10 - 4 times; Stolen Bases Top 10 - 3 times; Extra Base Hits 1967, 1969 (Top 10 four other times); Intentional Walks 1971 (Top 10 six other times); Power/Speed 1966, 1968 (Top 10 three other times). Pretty sweet! Better than Chipper?

Dale Murphy: All-Star - 7 times; Gold Glove - 5 times; Silver Slugger - 4 times; MVP 1982, 1983 (Top 10 two more times); Batting Average Top 10 - 2 times; On Base % Top 10 - 5 times; Slugging % 1983, 1984 (Top 10 four other times); Games Played 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985 (Top 10 three other times); At Bats Top 10 - 4 times; Runs 1985 (Top 10 five other times); Hits Top 10 - 3 times; Total Bases 1984 (Top 10 six other times); Doubles Top 10 - 4 times; Triples Top 10 - Once; Home Runs 1984, 1985 (Top 10 SEVEN other times); RBI 1982, 1983 (Top 10 four other times); Base on Balls 1985 (Top 10 six other times); Runs Created 1983, 1984, 1985, 1987 (Top 10 three other times); Extra Base Hits 1984 (Top 10 SEVEN other times); Times on Base 1985 (Top 10 five other times); Intentional Walks 1987 (Top 10 four other times); Power/Speed 1983 (Top 10 four other times); At Bats Per Home Run Top 10 - 7 times. That’s pretty much dominance of a decade. :)

I may have hit a couple categories for one or more of them I didn’t hit for another but feel free to do a complete comparison at baseball reference. Might prove insightful. Also, keep in mind that Murphy had nowhere near the support in the lineup these guys had. They didn’t HAVE to intentionally walk him so much as they could just pitch around him and make the rest of the lineup try to hit better pitches.

By mariner

January 10, 2007 05:35 PM | Link to this

I thought this was an interesting quote from John Thomson about not wanting Paul LoDuca as his catcher as the reason why he turned down a Mets offer in favor of the Blue Jays: “As far as just looking at Paul Lo Duca across the field, I’m not really into how he acts behind the plate,” Thomson said on a conference call. “I know a bit about [Toronto catcher] Gregg Zaun and I know he wants to win and he’s not going to let anything get in his way to do that, and I like that.”

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2726797

Not sure what Thomson means, but thought it was interesting, and another failed attempt to add starting pitching for the Mets. Which is a good thing. Back to music.

By brian

January 10, 2007 05:50 PM | Link to this

2 things DOB - How can you lump End of the World with Shiny Happy People and Stand????!!!!End of the World is a great song by REM, not annoying stuck in my mind like the other two. Fall on Me probably is my favorite REM song.

Second - and on a different note - if you played fantasy baseball how would you rank your top ten??? Albert first, AROD probably second but then who??? I struggled last year and could use some help!

By listen up

January 10, 2007 06:05 PM | Link to this

Dudes:

Best REM album is Document.

Best track is “Oddfellows Local 151” - grungiest guitar by far (fro rem).

By DonCoburleone

January 10, 2007 06:08 PM | Link to this

Ryan Howard 3rd, duh…

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 06:11 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Brian; the annoying song stuck in my head just went from “Stand” back to “End of the World.” Damn you people. At this point, I might as well listen to the actual songs just to keep the loop of worst parts from being continuous.

By journalist jimmy smith

January 10, 2007 06:12 PM | Link to this

back to jimmy smith envy, huh? well, stinky has taken some humiliating losses of late and journalist understands. it is stinky, right? not sda standing in for stinky again like sda did at the trailer during the christmas holidays? oh well, stinky will grow tired of blogging as jimmy smith soon and will entertain all the bloggers with stinky talking to stinky - reminiscent of christmas. now, that was some real blogging! of course, if it was sda (could be sda since sda spells better than stinky and is smarter) then jimmy smith will catch up with sda later. now, baseball … journalist agrees that dale murphy was and is mr. atlanta brave. it is an earned recognition. pr departments sell a face player (uh, guess who) but during murphy’s years he was genuinely the heart of the braves team - and such a popular player. the braves had a few stars over the years that got lost on some really bad baseball teams. it was so bad that management used to bring in faded stars from other teams. murph was a real home-grown star.

By DonCoburleone

January 10, 2007 06:16 PM | Link to this

Along with Albert and A-Rod, if your just talking Offensive guys, the 8 other guys I would have in my top 10 are: Ryan Howard, Lance Berkman, Miguel Cabrera, Vlad, ManRam, Big Papi, Justin Morneau, and why not, Andruw Jones…

By DonCoburleone

January 10, 2007 06:24 PM | Link to this

Oh crap, forgot Travis (donkey) Hafner… That guy is the textbook definition of a slugger…

And a little side note here, going through some stats, and I’m sure you’ve pointed this out at some point this offseason DOB. LaRoche was 12th in the entire major league’s this year in slugging percentage. Some players who LaRoche ranked ahead of? Soriano, Aramis Ramirez, Justin Morneau, Giambi, Vlad, Konerko, Delgado, Frank Thomas, Vernon Wells, A-ROD, David Wright, Andruw Jones, Teixera, Utley, Sexon… and the list goes on… Wow, you go LaRoche!

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 10, 2007 06:43 PM | Link to this

The Pirates have reportedly made offers to both Tomo Ohka and Brian Lawrence. You have to wonder why. I seem to think that it means the Pirates are trying to secure another starter or two so they can trade one of the ones they currently have. I won’t get my hopes up, but I think the possibility of Gorzelany and Gonzales coming to the Braves will hinge on if the Pirates can sign either or both of these guys.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 10, 2007 06:50 PM | Link to this

I have just one question. Where is LaTwan Anthony? I am in need of a good Chipper story.

By MBATL

January 10, 2007 06:55 PM | Link to this

RJIB, I’ve been watching that too. On the other hand, it might just mean that right now they really only have 4 decent starters, all young guys with potential, but not much more than that. And they do have a little payroll flexibility. So maybe they’re just trying to get better.

But, just from what I’ve read, I’ve got a feeling that Littlefield is being bombarded by fans, players, the press, to get a bat, so who knows what he might do.

By DonCoburleone

January 10, 2007 06:55 PM | Link to this

Wasn’t me…

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 10, 2007 07:07 PM | Link to this

MBATL, the Pirates do have Shawn Chacon which would round out their rotation. That is why I think they are attempting to set up the possibility to trade a starter by signing Lawrence or Ohka or both. The next few days should be very interesting. The Rockies and Nats are after both of these guys as well. The Mets are reportedly after Ohka.

Is it just me or is it very interesting that a lot of players seem to be avoiding the Mets. I wonder why that is. Seriously.

By Dr. Phil

January 10, 2007 07:13 PM | Link to this

Clearly, there are a number of sociopaths on this blog. I will not identify them.

However, they can be easily recognized by the following characteristics: callous, deceitful, reckless, guiltless, often intimidating and sometimes violent. Their maladaptive patterns of thinking, feeling and behaving impair their daily functioning and disrupt this blog.

The sociopath understands the wishes and concerns of others; he simply does not care. He believes that he has the right to do what he wants and to take what he can. He manipulates others by deception and/or intimidation, has an inflated opinion of himself and seeks out, then uses, the weaknesses he finds in others. There is no fair mindedness, no self doubt, no compassion or true affection.

The sociopath believes that rules and morals are for other, weaker people who obey because they fear punishment. He feels indifference and contempt for these others (such as journalist jimmy smith), who “have it coming.”

Now, baseball: does bat size correlate with performance? What does the “tunnel” leading from the clubhouse to the dugout really symbolize? And what is the psychological significance of the baseball “diamond” - why not a baseball “triangle”, say?

By TennesseePaul

January 10, 2007 07:14 PM | Link to this

Thomson to the Jays, that’s not a bad thing for him. He should do well. Really appreciate his mlb.com report saying he picked the Jays due to the catcher and better outfield defense over the Mets. I like the guy. I was really disappointed with him last season but had high hopes to start the year. I think he’ll bounce back and put up some OK numbers considering the division he’s in…. if he stays healthy =). Never gonna forget KC’s attempt to sell the Mariner fans on HoRam. Those guys just wouldn’t bite. That was good stuff. So many “when healthy” qualifiers…

By DonCoburleone

January 10, 2007 07:16 PM | Link to this

“Is it just me or is it very interesting that a lot of players seem to be avoiding the Mets. I wonder why that is. Seriously.”

I kind of wondered that too… No free agent signings, I mean, even Glavine would have left if the Braves had offered him 30% less money than NY did. Maybe everybody realizes Minaya is a snake and the rest of the team is on ‘roids and don’t want to be associated with that…

By DonCoburleone

January 10, 2007 07:19 PM | Link to this

What John Thomson really meant: “I am a Brave at heart and will always be a Brave, I’ll be dammed if I ever play for the dreaded Muts…”

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 07:22 PM | Link to this

Robert, that IS unusual, and I started to remark upon it earlier. One would think a team with that much money and recent success would have players striving to go there…maybe I’m not the only one who thinks the place is a collection of fine establishments located in a giant sewer. That ought to bring some Mutt fans trolling. :-)

By MBATL

January 10, 2007 07:28 PM | Link to this

RJIB, well, if Shawn Chacon was my 5th starter and I had any money to spend, I’d be dipping into free agent waters for sure. But, I’m not arguing… it may very well be that if they can sign Ohka or Lawrence, they’ll decide to deal one of the young four. I hope so!

Good points about the Mets… nobody really seems to wanna play with them, do they? (though, ESPN reports they’re close to signing Schoeneweiss… that’s fine with me. The Braves could’ve used the mediocre left arm, I guess, but no way we could or should offer him 3 years as the Mets reportedly will).

By Thomas E. Ricks

January 10, 2007 07:32 PM | Link to this

This particular blog has become a FIASCO.

Mr. O’Brien has bravely and resolutely tried to “stay the course” and occupy this discussion with lists of former Braves and top rock bands.

However, the effort has become blogged down due to unrelenting insurgent posts and it no longer has the support of the majority of Braves fans.

It is time to redeploy to a more defensible topic, perhaps predictions for the 2007 season.

By DonCoburleone

January 10, 2007 07:52 PM | Link to this

OH NO!!! The Mets signed Scott Schoenweis!!! We may as well concede the East right now!

By journalist jimmy smith

January 10, 2007 08:02 PM | Link to this

whoa! jimmy smith is getting a lot of play tonight! and who are all these mysterious bloggers? journalist should seek royalties from dob for all the sda and/or stinky attacks journalist is deflecting from dob. still, both bloggers have time on their hands what with menial jobs and no companionship. now, baseball … what is the story with john thomson and lo duca? we must wait to hear from dob.

now, pie … not much pie talk of late. not even fried pies. apple, peach . .. hot and flaky with hot coffee. oh, the humanity!

By brian

January 10, 2007 08:06 PM | Link to this

DonC - where would you place Johan?

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 08:25 PM | Link to this

DonC, my friend, just one last time: It’s one man’s OPINION. Nothing more. Why do you care so much? The list was never, ever intended to be any kind of definitive anything. It’s my damn opinion, nothing more. I mean, do I expect even 2 percent of the other bloggers here to agree with me that the Replacements or the Pogues are better bands than Metallica? Of course not. But to me, they’re better because I like them more. That’s all.

I mean, what’s so hard to understand about that? And if I believe that Guns & Roses is “better” because I loved that album and because I think they had more of an influence on straight-ahead rock (not metal, but rock in general) and really helped get rock & roll out of a horrible rut it was in at the time when dance music and all the awful pop-rock and hair-metal bands were in vogue, well, then that’s how I feel. That’s why I had people post their own lists. Mine’s just one of them.

I mean, some are saying Megadeth or Tool or Rammstein are top 10. Those bands are nowhere on my radar. They wouldn’t be in my top 100. Rammstein wouldn’t be in my top 1,000. But does that mean they’re no good? Of course not. It means I don’t like them.

But enough time debating 80s metal albums (GnR vs. Metallica). That stuff’s not even on my playlist these days anyway (well, I did play Master of Puppets a few weeks ago, and I do have St. Anger on my iPod, but still….)

I’d much rather discuss the relative merits of Tom Waits’ triple-CD Orphans, so good it’s difficult to believe it’s stuff that’s been sitting in the vaults for years, or The Minus 5 (with Peter Buck, by the way) and their fantastic Gun album that I’m playing to death lately, or the re-issue of Yo La Tengo’s President Yo La Tengo/New Wave Hot Dogs (two-fer on one CD), or Ron Sexsmith’s new one, or the new George Jones/Merle Haggard album, or anything by James McMurtry….

But frankly, I can understand some being sick of the music talk for now. Not me, but plenty of bloggers, I’m sure. So talk about whatever you want.

Roger McDowell’s pitching camp is Feb. 2-12, by the way.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 08:28 PM | Link to this

Hey, Braves could have used Schoenweis, don’t kid yourselves. Besides, what do you think Mets fans were saying when Braves signed Chris Woodward….

Brian, regarding your question about fantasy baseball. I don’t play it, and it bores me beyond belief. Sorry, can’t help you with any questions about that. Could refer you to my 12-year-old nephew, though. He knows his stuff.

By MBATL

January 10, 2007 08:58 PM | Link to this

From what I read on Met’s blogs, the fans actually had pretty good things to say about Woodward.

Sure, we could use Schoeneweiss… he throws the ball with his left hand. But there’s no way we were gonna get a 1-year contract, as some have suggested, and I’m glad we didn’t offer him 3.

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 09:01 PM | Link to this

BTW, Dave (and I promise, this is not a riposte about your Rammstein opinion…just thought you might be interested), it’s not just that Rammstein to me is good workout or…um…recreational activity with a certain kind of female sort of music, many of their lyrics are based on the work of Goerthe, among other literary and historical people/events. Of course, a lot of their lyrics are also based on violence and molestation. My point is, just because American audiences who don’t speak German flock to the sound alone doesn’t mean they’re a stupid or insignifigant band (which you didn’t say; I’m just tossing it out there for those who might think that). It takes a philosopher, historian, linguist and sick f*&% to appreciate them fully. :-)

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 09:04 PM | Link to this

MBATL, very true. Braves couldn’t have offered him anything comparable.

Tech’s about to beat Duke, first time they’ve beat the Dookies here in Atlanta since 1996. Good for them. And that’ll be two losses to Tech teams in four days for the Dookies (Va Tech beat ‘em at Cameron).

By brian

January 10, 2007 09:09 PM | Link to this

thanks DOB - sarcasm noted. As your 12 year old nephew could tell you, you are missing out. Great way as well to keep in touch with friends who also love sports.

What ever happened to Will Startup? Is he no where close to being ready? Injured?

Maybe we could start a blog on who is going to have a breakthrough spring training and contribute to the Braves this year. Escobar? Salty? Davies? Blanco? Who will be this year’s Chuck James or two year ago’s Francoeur/McCann?

I would settle for a Charles Thomas or whatever his name was in LF = be it Langy/Diaz/Blanco, ???Someone step it up please

By TLJ

January 10, 2007 09:20 PM | Link to this

Brian, I like your idea about the new blog. It would be fun and give us something to do until spring training.

What do think DOB?

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 09:20 PM | Link to this

Oops, put an r where one didn’t belong in Goethe. Also, Tech beat the Dookies, and not just by a free-throw. Now I’ve got to hear about that, too. At least my Dawgs are in the midst of smacking-down SC by 20 points.

By Metroplitan Man

January 10, 2007 09:22 PM | Link to this

Looks like Minaya is trying to have lightning strike twice in Queens. Schoeneweiss coming to the METS means streangthen the pen and go with the starting arms we have. Now Heilman is trade bait again and the free agent starting pitching pool was dry 2 weeks ago. I can honestly say looking at the teams that usually makes the playoffs, the METS starting pitching is suspect. Yes I said it. Also I dont think its players that dont want to play for the METS, its more of everyone trying to cash in on the METS. Minaya has enough money invested in Pedro, Beltran, Wagner, Delgado, Reyes and Wright not to be held up by a number 3, 4, or 5 guy unless he is a bonifide ace. Other than an ace or a position starter on this current METS team you, will be a role palyer and deserve role player money. Thompson not a MET, thank goodness. We need pitchers who know their worth and are willing to gel with a team that found teamwork and held each other up during hard times. The METS are a TEAM as of 2006 and need team players. So with that said look out for the 2007 METS pen until we can find some suitible arms worth paying for. Hurry up Pedro.

By brian

January 10, 2007 09:23 PM | Link to this

also a good day when Duke loses. I bet there are a lot of Mets fans or Yankee fans wearing the Duke blue. I am suprised Dickey didn’t foul out since he was the hot Tech player

By brian

January 10, 2007 09:27 PM | Link to this

so Mulder chose St. Louis… Maybe Texas will get desparate and make an offer we cannot refuse for Hudson for pitching or Andruw for another bat. They have thrown money at a bunch of players and have been rebuffed.

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 09:35 PM | Link to this

Brave post, Metro Man. However, I bet you’re secretly wishing Thompson was in your starting rotation. Hell, if he’s totally healed, I wouldn’t mind if he was in ours as a no. 5 or long relief. Dude ain’t that bad. Of course, we already have a surplus of starting pitching so it doesn’t really matter. Don’t you wish you could say that? You’re ok, though, man; don’t mean to bust your chops as bad as most other Mets fans. You and you alone acted with a certain amount of dignity last year when y’all made the playoffs and we didn’t. I got to admit, though, it’s been fun to hear you crow three weeks ago about how outclassed we were gonna be when y’all got Schmidt AND Zito…now you’re like a comedian flopping in his own muck-sweat to an unnapreciative audience trying to still be funny (our rotation is FINE…really…uh, tip your waitresses…). :-)

By Robert

January 10, 2007 09:36 PM | Link to this

Ok, did noone see my Alfonseca 120 percent comment, or did noone understand it, or was it just not funny?

That one usually draws, if not laughs, then at least a few chuckles and maybe a muffled guffaw or two

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 09:38 PM | Link to this

“I just flew in from LaGuardia, and boy are my arms tired…Schowenweis is gonna stregthen our bullpen…thank you, thank you; try the veal…”

By Robert

January 10, 2007 09:50 PM | Link to this

Any day Duke basketball loses is a good day.

Just like any day Notre Dame football loses is a good day

If you ask me, Mulder’s contract is insanity. The guy’s inside numbers were getting worrisome even before his arm blew up last year. Now he’s gonna be hopefully 20-25 starts this year

That costs you $13 mil for two years. Now if his arm actually stays attached to his body and he is any good, incentives start kicking in and he might cost $45 mil over three years.

Gotta love the HOF voters as a group. They very much did the right thing. I’m still not sure if I’d vote for Ripken first ballot (before anyone explodes remember DiMaggio got in on his third try) - but I like the fact that Dawson, Rice, and company saw their percentages decline

Next year, however, looks like a prime year for a silly selection. No real studs coming onto the ballot and if the voters take the “we have to induct someone” attitude, they might go hog wild and put those two and Blyleven all in - which three together wouldnt add squat to the HOF

Gossage should get in soon. Wish Jack Morris had gotten a little more love, but hey

DOB - did Bradley really vote for like 8 guys?

Rickey Henderson, who becomes eligible in 2009, might be as a good a shot as anyone to be the first and perhaps only unanimous selection

Maddux might be the other

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 09:52 PM | Link to this

Robert, I saw it and thought it was funny. For some reason I can’t think of, I didn’t mention it. I would hypothesize most others didn’t ‘cause you may have lost some stock with all the Bobby bashing…could be wrong, as always, but that’s my guess. Kudos, though; as I’m impartial. :-)

By Metroplitan Man

January 10, 2007 09:54 PM | Link to this

Grinch you can keep that rubberneck Thompson. Granted I’ll take the young guns anyday over a Thompson, Weaver, or Ortiz anyday, 2 which happen to be former braves. But dont let my realism of the METS confuse you with dispair. I am still looking forward to watching the team we have for 07 and of course wish for better starting pitching, but I know what we have is reliable, just not bonafide. Now another pen arm just saved Glavine and El Duque some innings and makes Heilman trade bait since Sanchez is resigned and was the setup man before he got in the taxi accident last year. So the options remain there, but the talent in the free agent pool is gone. Besides I like the fact that Minaya is not just getting players for the sake of it. He is actully putting pieces together, he has been doing that since he arrived. So I’ll wait for the finished product instead of a declining braves product!!!

By Robert

January 10, 2007 10:02 PM | Link to this

“predictions for the 2007 season”

1.A lot of frequant posters to this blog will claim that we have an awesome team better than any other in the division or even the league

2.The home crew will make projections for each Brave based on putting together the two best halves they have had since Little League, and while also taking total team health at all times absolutely for granted. Therefore, Chipper, Andruw, LaRoche, McCann, and Francoeur will all hit .325+ with at least 50 home runs and 150-200 rbi each. Likewise, Hudson, Hampton, and Smoltz will all be forecast to win 20 games or more with ERA’s below 2.

3.Despite all the phenomenal seasons projected for the entire Braves roster, should they make the playoffs, it will be considered nigh until a miracle that only a genius like Bobby Cox could possibly pull off

4.Despite all the Braves players being projected to make the all-time All Star team, if the Braves do NOT make the playoffs, it will be considered to be no fault of Bobby Cox’s

5.(and this one is my own projection) Whether or not the 07 Braves make the playoffs, their season will be over by October 5th and Bobby Cox will remain a donkey

Thank you and goodnight from Lawton Oklahoma

By Robert

January 10, 2007 10:10 PM | Link to this

“I would hypothesize most others didn’t ‘cause you may have lost some stock with all the Bobby bashing”

I would counter hypothesize that the Cox fans who read it were thinking to themselves “That is so stupid. Everyone knows nothing can be more than 100 percent”

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 10:10 PM | Link to this

“I like the fact that Minyana is not just getting players for the sake of it…he’s actually putting pieces together, he has been doing that since he arrived.” That describes Schuerholz to a tee, and he didn’t even have to posture first this off-season. Why? ‘cause he’s Grinchy like me and knows the opinions of lemmings don’t mean squat. Welcome to the poker game, MetMan. Got change for a hundred? :-)

By MBATL

January 10, 2007 10:10 PM | Link to this

Robert, embarrassed to say I didn’t get it… got a quick explanation? Grinch, got to agree. I did some whining about the votes, but all in all they seem to get it mostly right, and err on the side of caution, which is as it should be.

By mr baseball

January 10, 2007 10:12 PM | Link to this

Didn’t realize there were so many metalhead/Braves fans. Explains a lot about the blog. With so few Green Day mentions, apparently not a lotta punk wannabees. Too bad.

After yesterday’s HoF vote, went back and looked up some numbers on 3 players: 1 - almost unanimous selection; 2 - near miss; 3 - less than 20 votes.

No. 1 — average numbers for 16 full seasons: 137 games, 535 ABs, 81 runs, 182 hits, 31 doubles, 5 triples, 8 HRs, 66 RBI, 19 stolen bases, .340 avg.

No. 2 — average numbers for 14 full seasons: 144 games, 568 ABs, 87 runs, 170 hits, 26 doubles, 5 triples, 27 HR, 101 RBI, .300 avg.

No. 3 — average numbers for 10 full seasons: 147 games, 561 ABs, 95 runs, 168 hits, 38 doubles, 2 triples, 37 HR, 120 RBI, .298 avg.

No. 1 deserves to be in the Hall, but can anyone explain why he is a virtual unanimous pick and No. 2 gets only about 5 of every 8 votes? Does 40 points of batting average outweigh 35 fewer RBIs a season and 6 less runs scored?

As for No. 3, he may have been the single worst excuse for a person playing baseball in the ’90s and his numbers may not be entirely legit, but it’s pretty hard to argue against those numbers, most of which he put up for a playoff-caliber team.

All 3 vote totals reflect the impact of cooperating/not cooperating with the media. Furman says the writers got it right this time, but until Jack Morris gets voted in (and Gossage and Lee Smith as well, regardless of Furman’s refusal to accept the value of closers), they’re on the wrong side of things.

Will be interesting to see how the vote goes next year with no Gwynn or Ripken on the ballot. Unfortunately, most of the focus will be on McGwire instead of worthwhile possibilities like Rice, Dawson, Murphy, Gossage, Smith, Morris, Blyleven, John, etc.

Maybe next year the talk will be about cocaine and celebrity divorces instead of steroids.

By MBATL

January 10, 2007 10:15 PM | Link to this

Grinch, guess my last comment about the HOF should’ve been addressed to Robert, who has since exposed himself - and to no great ovation, I would guess. Sorry for the mixup.

By Metroplitan Man

January 10, 2007 10:20 PM | Link to this

Yeah Gricnhy, JS days of getting something for nothing is over. Minaya has stolen his blueprint to success and thats all to it and he has money to boot. I have change for a hundred but Ima lend it to JS so he can afford a leadoff hitter.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 10:27 PM | Link to this

Brian, I was actually thinking of that same thing this afternoon _ which one of the rookies might do something this year. And I really couldn’t come up with anyone I feel real strong about, frankly. Not even sure which rookies will make the team (Aybar’s not a rookie anymore)….

Mr Baseball, we’ve had numerous Clash discussions here. Quite a few Clash fans here. And while I loved Green Day’s last album, and like them in general, sorry, but they don’t hold a candle to the real deal, aka the mighty, mighty Clash. Actually, I like Rancid a bit more than Green Day, too. But like I said, loved that last Green Day album.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 10, 2007 10:28 PM | Link to this

Robert, you’re from Lawton. I’m originally from Shawnee and will be moving back there this summer. Cool to know someone on here from Oklahoma even if I think you’re a bit too hard on ‘ol Bobby Cox.

The Mets rotation is in trouble and I think they will have a hard time getting Arams, Ohka, or Lawrence to sign there. Those guys will want to go somewhere where the pressure isn’t as great. I see Lawrence settling on the Pirates or Rockies. Ohka probably becomes a prime target of the Rangers. And Armas either goes back to the Nats or signs with someone not even on the radar. I predict either the Braves or the Royals. Seriously. I think Armas would be a very wise move for the Braves. He could either give the pen that second lefty it needs or could be placed on the backend of the rotation and perhaps make Kyle Davies tradeable.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 10:28 PM | Link to this

OK, gotta return focus to this KU-Oklahoma State game. The big Russian (Sasha Kaun) is having a career night for the ‘Hawks.

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 10:31 PM | Link to this

You are hereby forgiven, MABTL…I won’t even dole out any “Our Fathers” or “Hail Mary’s”…it’s not like we’re behind in a football game anyway. :-)

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 10:39 PM | Link to this

MetMan, he may have access to the blueprint but it ain’t all done on paper. Ask DOB, he’ll tell you. Plenty of phone calls, luncheons, meetings (both formal and informal), etc. Plus, our city’s a hell of a lot more atractive to live in than yours, so we don’t have to offer as much money. It’s all a big poker game, and a great player with a little luck doesn’t have to have that many chips to turn the tables. Trust me. We’ll be fine headed into this season, without spending much of anything and without nearly the media pressure. There’s a reason the Mets lose most every year, and it isn’t how high their chip stack is.

By Rosalynn

January 10, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this

Jimma and I talked about Jimma’s favahrit bands during dinna. Jimma likes the Marine Corps band and then the Marantha Baptist Church band. Jimma went to band camp when he was a boy and they pantsed Jimma the fihst day! He has nevah liked being around bands since that day. They ran Jimma’s pants up a flag pole and he had to climb that pole in his undies to retrieve them! All the while they stood theah and laughed at Jimma. That’s why Jimma’s a little sensitive about flag poles even now. Little did they know mah Jimma would someday be leadah of the free wohld and get to sit in the ownah’s box at turna field. who is the ownah now?

By Metroplitan Man

January 10, 2007 10:52 PM | Link to this

Well Grinchy I will just have to look forward to a promising METS season and will save my “I Told You So”, from last year to this year. Now DOB keeps a great blog and can runs off excellent stats, but his words are not law. So you can ask DOB about the MLB poker slots, I will continue to enjoy this game and let all the Atlanta Ginchies know who I’m rooting for. Oh, ask any person to name the most exciting and most famous city in the world and see how far down the ATL is on that list buddy. Yeah I know I live in Ga, but it aint Atlanta, the slowest diverse city in the South. See you at the game homer!!!!!

By The Grinch

January 10, 2007 11:13 PM | Link to this

I guar-and-f-ing-tee I ain’t asking DOB about poker; I’ve done well enough on my own…my name doesn’t come from being green. I just meant about the complexities of negotiation. As for cities, nobody said anything about excitement…I could be plenty excited in south central L.A. dodging bullets, but that doesn’t mean I’d want to bring my family there as a millionaire. See you too, and I’ll buy you a brew or two while we’re whippin’ your a*.

By Robert

January 10, 2007 11:28 PM | Link to this

Some responses to multiple ongoing conversations

1.I went back and reread the start of this blog. Made me think about GnR’s. - a great band in their short prime, but I dont think I could vote for them for the rock HOF - kinda like the Roger Maris of rock n roll - one great season doesnt a HOFer make

2.Just moved to Lawton, OK from Athens, Ga. Loving Oklahoma so far. Moved here partly to get to do some storm chasing. That and a great job offer.

3.I have never exposed myself. Well, except for that one time in the sorority house, and I was very drunk at the time

4.Alfonseca has 6 fingers on each hand. If a pitcher with 5 fingers can give 100 percent, then obviously Alfonseca, with 6 ,is giving you 120 percent.

I’ll admit, it isnt that funny when it’s laid out like a geometry proof, but it did get me thinking

Isn’t it amazing how Mordecai Brown made the HOF even tho he wasnt trying very hard?

Now for the “Name That Tune” line of the day

“So I asked if I could have one someday when I grew up. Mama dropped a dozen eggs she really blew up”

Name that tune (and the artist)

By Ace

January 10, 2007 11:33 PM | Link to this

DOB - Curious to hear your take on Collective Soul

Also - any list of the worst Braves must leave a spot for Lonnie Smith. I know I only have in mind the one blunder, but man oh man was it a doozie!

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 11:34 PM | Link to this

Robert, that is of course the great Steve Earle singing “The Devil’s Right Hand.”

NOW we’re talking music, boys.

Oh, and Bobby Cox was born in Oklahoma. Tulsa.

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 11:39 PM | Link to this

Big night for Jayhawks _ they beat them 10th-rated Okie Staters by 30, and Kirk Hinrich drops 33 points and nine assists on the Washington Wizards.

By Robert

January 10, 2007 11:40 PM | Link to this

“No. 1 deserves to be in the Hall, but can anyone explain why he is a virtual unanimous pick and No. 2 gets only about 5 of every 8 votes? Does 40 points of batting average outweigh 35 fewer RBIs a season and 6 less runs scored?”

The answer is fairly simple. 27 dingers and 100 rbi a year are very good numbers, but the number of peers who produce similar numbers is far greater than the number of guys who produce numbers similar to the .340 hitter.

Number 2 was in the top tier of run producers for a select portion of his career. So were a lot of guys - and you start tinkering and saying 8 years is enough instead of ten and so on and so on, and suddenly the HOF is a very crowded place

Number 1 was in the ELITE tier of hitters ALL TIME

The difference is that between very very good and true exceptional excellence.

Which is exactly what the HOF’s membership and omission list should reflect (in my opinion)

To be a little less harsh, Jim Rice wouldnt be a detriment to the HOF, and he certainly has far more of a legit claim than Andre Dawson or local favorite Dale Murphy, but the HOF is just fine without Jim Rice. The HOF without Tony Gwynn is incomplete

Canseco - will be an interesting agenda item with the Veterans Committee - someday when maybe better light will have been shed on the “steroid era” as a whole. He may have a Tommy John style claim to fame - tho more so than John as Canseco CHOSE to get into the situation he was in and to draw others in while John wouldve strongly preferred (at the time) to not need reconstructuve surgery

By Robert

January 10, 2007 11:44 PM | Link to this

Hi 5 to DOB - great tune

Did you HAVE to remind me that Cox was from Oklahoma?

By David O'Brien

January 10, 2007 11:50 PM | Link to this

He only lived there briefly before his family moved to central California, farm country up near Fresno.

By DAP

January 11, 2007 12:29 AM | Link to this

just wanted to respond to a couple of earlier posts, and see if we can keep the convo going.

im glad thomson got a deal, but man thats a great price for someone like thomson. he’s better than “not that bad” like someone said before, he’s actually dang good when he doesnt have freakin blisters (panzy) and has 9 years of major leauge experience. dont forget last year he had the lowest era in the majors almost the whole first month before his blisters started to develop. dude can pitch, AND hes an awesome guy to. i like how he dissed lo duca like that. i agree, lo duca’s a punk. thomson will have a great year if his stupid blisters will stay away.

next, someone was talking about the pirates signing a couple of pitchers so they could in turn give the braves gonzalez and a starter for laroche. i think the ONLY way the braves should do this deal, is if they know they can use the starter they get to get balldelli. otherwise losing laroche isnt smart. if the braves get another starter, they still shouldnt offer james. maybe the rays will take two starters…davies and whoever we get from pit?

another post i wanted to respond to is who i think will have a breakout year. i think gregor blanco is looking really good right now, and im not sure if i really think he will breakout as much as i just really hope he does. if he plays in spring training like he did in venezuela, were looking at our new left fielder and leadoff hitter!

but the problem is, now we have three left fielders(4 if you count thorman) and i think diaz is the odd man out. langerhans defense is just to good, and (here comes my second breakout prediction) i think that given adequate playing time, langerhans is going to be a good hitter, and may ease the worries we have about who could play center if andruw leaves next year. defensivly, there is no one more qualified. i think he may be one of the top defensive outfielders in the league. his bat just needs to catch up a little…

By mr baseball

January 11, 2007 12:38 AM | Link to this

Robert: You can have 8 Tony Gwynns in your lineup. I’ll take 8 Jim Rices. You’ll get more hits. I’ll score more runs. Last time I checked, the team that scored the most runs wins, not the team that gets the most hits.

By ITCHY

January 11, 2007 01:04 AM | Link to this

Somebody scratch me !

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 11, 2007 01:09 AM | Link to this

I think both Rice and Gwynn belong in the HOF but I would take Gwynn any day of the week. You can’t drive in runs unless you runners on base. Gwynn got on base. Not to mention in pressure situations I feel better with the guy who can get the hit and not strikeout than I do with the guy who COULD hit a homerun. I think there are not enough Tony Gwynn type players in today’s game and that is why offenses are sou inconsistent.

By Head Coach

January 11, 2007 01:33 AM | Link to this

Happy New Year to all and I see the blog is still going strong. I thought the following link might add some insight into what we might expect from Mr. Hampton this season , enjoy.http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/dailypitch/2002-04-24-pitch.htm

By Head Coach

January 11, 2007 01:56 AM | Link to this

Lets try it again. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/dailypitch/2002-04-24-pitch.htm

By Jack Blaisdell

January 11, 2007 07:36 AM | Link to this

Oh, joy. A “List” piece! Ya gotta love it. For me, Chippah, Murph and Smoltzie come right after Maddux, with Niekro & Glavine getting dropped down a few notches. ( Also, just on general principles alone, I’d replace Javy with Pendleton, even if the latter only had a couple cups of coffee here. Still, they were really strong cups.) Only one (huge) quarrel with the rock list. Omission of Green Day is a bit numbing in its oversight. How on earth can you get to Macon from Atlanta without sliding “American Idiot” into the CD player? PS — My Time-Warner Cable bill just went up. I feel certain a few of those nickles are ticketed for the Braves budget. Don’t you !?

By Ray

January 11, 2007 08:19 AM | Link to this

I have to chime in regards to the stats. NO doubt the stats OPS and WHIP are significant. This win stuff or whatever its called come on now. Its a clouded wanna be stat. That is almost like me saying if the Braves score 830 runs this year then that will total 89 wins. In regards for the break-out spring, I have mentioned it a few times over the last week, who do we see as having a break out season? Of course its all speculation. In regards to the Mets having problems signing people, who did they really go after? We can’t say Zito, he wasn’t going there. He was west coast. I hate the Mets as much as the Yanks but realistically when we say no one is signing with them, who are the ones that have turned them down? I guess we can give them a division title once every 20 years and I will take the Braves losing one once every 15 years.

By Shaun

January 11, 2007 08:41 AM | Link to this

Shaun, I don’t disagree that people’s body’s age…a guy who could run a 4.43 second 40-yard dash when he was 28 (all other things being exactly equal) might only be able to run a 4.48 when he’s 32. Sure. That’s not what you said. You essentially said that the body is so far gone naturally at 28 (how old Giles was last year) that resting wouldn’t have even helped him heal. Sorry, dude; that’s one of the most off the wall statements I’ve ever heard in any context.

I never said anything remotely like that. Here was my post about Cal Ripken that you originally responded to:

Players generally start declining in their late 20’s. I’m not sure if it would have mattered had he taken a day off…we’ll never know. But he was still better than most players at his position up until the streak ended, so I doubt he hurt his teams by playing everyday.

Where in there does it say the body is so far gone naturally at 28 that resting wouldn’t help it heal?

I said players generally begin to decline in their late 20’s (28 or 29). If a player is Hall-of-Fame-caliber, he’s still probably going to be an All-Star when he starts declining.

My post was in response to a post that said Cal Ripken may have been better had he rested some after his age 27 season. My point was he started to decline at the same age most players do, but he was still very productive after that point.

There are some interesting studies on age and baseball players. Different types of players age differently. Players who are very good at more than one skill (power, speed, plate discipline, ability to hit for average) usually decline slower than players good at one or two things (like Kevin Maas who was really only good at power and walking).

Obviously most players don’t just hit a wall at a certain age and I never said such a thing; their declines are usually pretty steady.

By Shaun

January 11, 2007 09:24 AM | Link to this

Ray and O’Brien and TennPaul,

I actually agree (believe it or not)—Win Shares is a little too complex for me, for the most part. There are a million different ways to calculate them, there really is no standard and it’s very complicated. I do think it serves a purpose because it is the best way we have so far to evaluate a player’s total contributions with just one number.

But, as I said, I prefer to look at AVG/OBP/SLG, plate appearances, age, park, league, etc. Those types of things can usually tell you what you need to know about a hitter’s production.

AVG, HR, RBI, R alone don’t tell you a lot because those things either leave out things like walks or total bases, or they just depend entirely too much on where a hitter is in the lineup or who’s hitting around him.

With pitchers, I prefer something other than WHIP—K/BB, HR, IP, ground ball rate, age, park, league. The only problem with WHIP is the H. Hits are largely dependent on the defense behind a pitcher and just bad luck. There’s not much a pitcher can do to change a ground ball right at someone to a ground ball just out of the reach of an infielder…or it’s not the pitcher’s fault if he has Tony Womack in center instead of Andruw Jones.

Defense is trickier because there is really not good information except what is affected by a team’s pitching staff. The best is probably to look at zone rating compared to an average player at the same position.

…just a little peak inside my mind to show you I’m not as far off of the way many of you think. Believe it or not, I don’t consider myself a “stats guy” more than an “evidence guy.”

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 11, 2007 09:26 AM | Link to this

This is an interesting twist on the Big -Head story. I haven’t even read it yet, but here it is.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2727325

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 11, 2007 09:33 AM | Link to this

Sorry, forgot to give my last post a proper introduction. That would be BONDS FAILING A DRUG TEST…..

By knowitall

January 11, 2007 09:46 AM | Link to this

Morning blog,

A couple of days ago someone posted their belief as to why Barry Bonds may act the way he does. After reading the article this morning regarding his positive test, it just further goes to prove he’s just a bad person, plain and simple. He throws Mark Sweeney under the bus for his positive test. I don’t even think Barry trusts any of his teamates enough to take anything from them. It just goes to show that he will go to any lenght to deflect blame from himself.

By journalist jimmy smith

January 11, 2007 09:49 AM | Link to this

robertjitb, journalist has been in touch with letwan anthony (wink,wink) and has requested a chipper story. may be delayed awhile - pie in the oven.

By rammerjammer

January 11, 2007 09:59 AM | Link to this

Since Alfonseca has 12 fingers AND 12 toes, didn’t he give 140 percent? Or do toes not count when computing effort? If only someone here knew about toes. Sigh.

By journalist jimmy smith

January 11, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

point well made by rammerjammer. toes are not to be trifled with.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 11, 2007 10:07 AM | Link to this

Shaun,

Could you please come up with a formula to figure out exactly how much percent Alfonseca is actually able to give =)

By Lew

January 11, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

If nothing else, why was Bond’s taking something from a teammate’s locker? No where does it say that Sweeney GAVE him the amphetamines, just that he got them from his locker. Would you just take a pill you found in a friend’s house? Even if you knew what it was (or thought you did)? Besides, look how well the misdirection worked for Palmiero. It’s time to punch this guy’s ticket and make him retire for the good of the game.

By LeTwan Anthony

January 11, 2007 10:23 AM | Link to this

It was a Friday like no other Friday. The Braves were in NY and Chipper was going out with his buddies after the game. Chipper had asked LaRoche to help him select something nice to wear. After consultation with LaRoche and a shopping spree in Manhattan, Chipper’s partying clothes were arranged by his locker along with a shiny, new pair of shoes with an inscription on the toes.

“Why did Chipper put T.G.I.F. on his shoes?”

Answer: Toes Go In First

By knowitall

January 11, 2007 10:33 AM | Link to this

Lew, completely agree. He makes is sound like it’s ok because he got it from someone else. It only makes him sound more guilty because given today’s environment, why would you take anything without knowing what it is? If he took it from Sweeney, he had to see something in Sweeney that made him say “I want some of whatever that guy is taking”. In the process of trying to deflect blame, he admitted to being a thief.

By baerdawg

January 11, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this

Two Comments: 1- Is is funny to me that the cut off date for these bands is 1982 because it is around that time when rock and roll went into the dumpster. Not a single band on your list can hold a candle to the likes of the Beatles, Stones, or Pink Floyd, or even lesser greats like ZZ Top, The Who, etc. Post ‘82 rock music stinks. 2- How can you leave out The Great Rufino Lanires? (“I look in glove- I see ball. I say to myself “Rufino, you one lucky man!”“)

By knowitall

January 11, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

LeTwan……classic.

By MBATL

January 11, 2007 10:41 AM | Link to this

Seems to me if Alfonseca had extra ‘tools’ then he may have actually gotten by with less effort, but like Arkansas Hillbilly, I’d need to see the formula.

Bonds sure has bad luck; accidently took steroids (the ‘clear and the cream’) and now accidentally took amphetemines. Hope they don’t leave any rat poison sitting around the locker room.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 11, 2007 10:46 AM | Link to this

He’s even topped McGwire in the ignorant response department with that crap. Just because you stole it from somebody doesn’t make it any less illegal. He’s really p** in his chili this time. Book him, Dan-O.

By Lew

January 11, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

KnowItAll-Maybe he thought it was Flax Seed Oil. BaerDawg-1982 was 25 years ago. No other reason. Besides, if you think Rock died after 82, it’s time to pull your head out of the sand. You missed a bunch of good music.

By Lew

January 11, 2007 10:58 AM | Link to this

Let us not forget the immortal Larvel “Sugar Bear” Blanks for the All-Infamy team. Or Pat Rockett. Great name, anyway.

By Greg in TN

January 11, 2007 11:41 AM | Link to this

Hey everyone…

I saw DOB post this on Monday and I loved it. Work has intruded since then or I would have posted this sooner. Here’s my top ten (better late than never):

1. Aaron
2. Maddux
3. Murphy
4. Smoltz
5. Niekro
6. C Jones
7. A Jones
8. Glavine
9. Justice
10. Horner

Like many have said, this list will likely change next year. Both Jones boys have the Murph in their sights and can pass him on the all time Atlanta homer list this year (and actually should. Andruw needs 30 and Chipper 15). There are several I struggled with towards the bottom including TP, Garr, Furcal, Gary Matthews and several more.

The hall vote isn’t surprising to me. Congrats to both Ripken and Gwynn. I read Furman Bisher’s article on who he voted for and all I can say is bless your heart for continuing to vote for Murph.

DOB it looks like Schoeneweis is going to the Mets (3-years @ $10.8 mil), so there goes a great idea. Looks like Bora$ might just be able to buy two South Pacific islands and a third next year after AJ signs someplace. Thanks for the info on the ballot from the last blog. Interesting stuff.

Can’t say I’m very surprised by the news that Bonds has evidently tested positive for amphetamines and I’m even LESS shocked that he pointed to a teammate and said he got it from Mark Sweeney. It’s never YOUR fault is it Barry? Somebody just gives me something and I pop it in my mouth and go. Don’t take any time to look and see what is is or ask any questions. Could be amphetamines, could be the clear, could be battery acid for all I know, I just take it, man. Sheesh.

For those keeping score at home, after today, 34 more days until pitchers and catchers report for spring training.

By knowitall

January 11, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

Since I refuse to patronize the racially insensitive Falcon’s blog, I’ll say it here: Hiring Mike Zimmer as defensive coordinater will prove to be a better move than hiring Petrio. Dallas consistently had a top 5 defense before Parcells made Zimmer switch for a 4-3 to a 3-4.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 11, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this

I just read Ken Rosenthal’s latest report and it seems the Pirates have talked to several teams about trading Mike Gonzales but are running into the same problem they have with the Braves…they won’t include a second player. I think Littlefield will eventually have to break and give up either Gorzelany or Duffy. The more I think about it the more I warm to the idea of Duffy. Duffy is the kind of guy that Cox can bring out the best in. I guess we’ll have to see.

Something else I found interesting is that the Astros are willing to put Chris Burke in center field but he will only be there temporarily because when Biggio retires Burke will go to second. I know this “tiresome talk” but it is worth the effort to look into what Houston would be willing to pay for Andruw. Could you imagine Andruw hitting in that park for 81 games a year. He would have a guaranteed 50 homeruns every year. Of course, I don’t really know who the Astros have that the Braves would want to equal what Andruw is worth. Well, actually that is not going to happen. I shoudl say get close to equalling Andruw. I think Chris Sampson would definitely have to be part of the deal. Maybe Brad Lidge could be thrown in as well. You probably know where I’m going. Sampson could be flipped to Tampa for Baldelli. Who know?

The Cubs are also shopping Jacque Jones because he wants to leave. Again, I wonder what the Cubs would take for him? Perhaps, Diaz. The Cubs could move Soriano to CF, even though they aren’t hot on placing him there. Put Matt Murton in RF. They could then have Diaz and Floyd platoon in LF. Just thiniking out loud.

One more thing. I have read in a few places that people seem to be under the impression that the Braves will put Andruw on the block in the summer. That makes absolutely no sense to me. For one, Andruw and Boras would be a helluva less likely to accept a trade mid season than they would right now. Two, why would the Braves get rid of a huge part of their lineup mid-season if they are in contention, which they should be. I think if Andruw was to get traded (which I highly doubt) it would be in the next four weeks.

By Get Real

January 11, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

knowitall: looks like your blog got cut off. I’m really interested to hear your thoughts on Zimmer. I know nothing about him.

By MBATL

January 11, 2007 12:16 PM | Link to this

Couple of things from watching ESPN this morning:

1. I didn’t know that a writer who gets HOF voting credentials held them for life (or, so it was reported). So a guy who hasn’t covered the game in 15 years and might have loose screws is still voting? Not a big deal, but that seems a little odd to me; and, seems to me that broadcasters might be added to the mix. The system seems to be working pretty well, so I’m not complaining… just wondering.

2. Skip Bayless (a tireless Bonds supporter) theorizes that Bonds may have taken diet pills from Sweeney’s locker - over the counter stuff - that contained traces of speed - I don’t know the science; is there enough amphetemine in those pills to cause a positive test? - but does sound plausible. Even if that’s all it is, Barry’s still just not too bright, given the circumstances, to be playing around with even that kind of thing. (and, it seems like he could afford to buy his own)

By snowball's chance

January 11, 2007 12:26 PM | Link to this

The reason the metal bands are missing from DOB’s list is that he forgot to say greatest rock bands who never had a mullett.

Barry,Barry,Barry. You are truly a s**.

Robert and DOB were talking Oklahoma last night. A lot of great musicians from Oklahoma. Jamie Oldaker the drummer for the Tractors, was the drummer for Delaney and Bonnie when Clapton played with them. Delaney wasn’t paying the other backups ,so they quit and Clapton went with them. That band became Derek and the Dominoes. Oldaker invited fellow Okies and other musicians he has played with and made a great album,”Mad Dogs and Okies”.Clapton, JJ Cale, Tony Joe White, Willie, Taj Mahal, and others. Good stuff.

By texbravesfan

January 11, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

Hey knowitall, u are right about the Zimmerman hiring. I am a Cowboy fan over here in Texas and he has been a great defensive coord. Parcels did mess up the defense though when he went to his patented 3-4 which hasnt helped a lick and probably made the defense more vulnerable. I believe the Falcons needed somebody to help out that defense and now yall just stole a good piece of the last remaining true cowboy from the jimmy johnson days.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 11, 2007 12:31 PM | Link to this

MBATL, it is more than plausible. That is what is so silly about this crap. Half of these “banned” substances can be purchased at your local GNC. The fact is Bonds is stupid. He was stupid to knowlingly take banned substances or stupid to take something without finding out what was in it.

By David O'Brien

January 11, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

Doesn’t have anything to do with baseball or greenies (well, maybe greenies), but if you want to laugh hysterically, you might want to watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMOlQX6l5dg

By David O'Brien

January 11, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

Lew, I don’t know, maybe think he meant “classic” rock died after 1982. But even that’s entirely incorrect, of course, since many of those great bands continued putting out some quality stuff well beyond that. And several newer bands have a retro sound straight out of the 70s and 80s. Regardless, it was a head-scratching statement, but just goes to reiterate how subjective all this is.

Or maybe he’s actually a pretty cool, hardcore dude who meant rock died about that time with the punk movement’s decline, an opinion I could certainly respect, though not agree with.

By dcarp23

January 11, 2007 12:50 PM | Link to this

While I don’t defend Bonds for allegedly breaking the rules, I think it is a little bit ridiculous that these results keep getting released. The players have given up a good deal in agreeing to testing (I think they could have refused testing in the last CBA and baseball would have allowed it, though I could be wrong), and the continual release of confidential tests to the public can’t sit well with the players or the union. Were I with the union, I’d think twice about any further concessions on alleged conditions of anonymity.

Then again, perhaps the union expected such leaks, and maybe the players (other than those getting caught) support them.

By Shaun

January 11, 2007 12:58 PM | Link to this

Here’s a band nobody has mentioned, one of the most underrated bands of all-time in my opinion: The Cars.

By michael(part-time blogger)

January 11, 2007 01:00 PM | Link to this

DOB, Thanks…this blog caused me to go back and listen to Appetite and Use your illusion again…as far as straight-forward rock-n-roll,I don’t know if it gets much better than Appetite for Destruction. Illusion was good but just reminds me of the “begining of the end” for GN’R. “14 years” says it all. Here’s a song slamming Axl and he has the nerve to drown out Izzy’s lead vocals with his own(Axl’s) “back-up” vocals. Classic.

Not sure where all the comparison talk of GN’R and Metallica comes from. It seems to me it’s always been like trying to compare Coke and Mt.Dew. Both great for what they are, but just not the same flavor so you can’t make a true comparison.

Great offseason blogs DOB. thanks.

By MBATL

January 11, 2007 01:01 PM | Link to this

That was a great video, O’Brien … … … or was it just a video that happened to be great? - David Caruso

I always thought that MTV and music videos (which came along in about 1980, I think) screwed up rock music. Too many silly bands got too much attention because they produced cute videos. And too many good artists spent too much time on making movies instead of music.

Not to say there isn’t a lot of great music today, or over the past 25 years - there is - but I do think there’s a correlation there.

By flange1

January 11, 2007 01:08 PM | Link to this

Hi All,

This Bonds stuff is just amazing. Everything that you ever hear or read about Bonds (excluding steroid stuff) indicates that he is a total control freak. Completely in charge of every little thing in his life and the lives of the people around him. Look at his training routine, it is so much work that NO ONE else will keep up with him. Now knowing that we are supposed to believe that he took the cream and the clear from Greg Andeson without knowing what was in it and then TOOK pills from a teammates locker without knowing what is in it??? This is absurd! At least Mark M. said I dont want to talk about the past. Bonds is a liar who should be banned from the game. He should not be allowed to break the King’s record..

DOB,

I have enjoyed reading the Pittsburgh papers with all of this trade talk about Laroach going to the Pirates going on. Dejean (sp?) seems to be a smart guy. His daily column today suggests that the Pirates are backing off on the no trade of a starter stance they have been on for awhile. I think something might be heating up again… Your thoughts? Are you friendly with Dejean?

By TennesseePaul

January 11, 2007 01:22 PM | Link to this

Defense is trickier because there is really not good information except what is affected by a team’s pitching staff. The best is probably to look at zone rating compared to an average player at the same position.

I would have to contend that the best way to get an idea of defense is to go to all the games. I like this course of evaluation. I try to employ it as often as possible.
Glad to see the remarks on Win Shares.

BONDS tested positive. Who’d have guessed? So shocking. Now, his excuse was, he took an unknown substance from a teammates locker. So basically he’s saying he is a complete and total idiot.

I appreciated Gene Orza’s comment… “I can say unequivocally in my 22 years I’ve known Barry Bonds he has never blamed anyone for anything.”
Immediately I recalled that press conference when Bonds blamed the media for his steroid use. “You finally did it. Are you happy? You got what you want. You did this.” When are these people going to stop covering for this guy?

By MBATL

January 11, 2007 01:23 PM | Link to this

dcarp23, I think the Congressional hearings forced the union’s hand; it was either accept a much stiffer policy, or have one handed to them by Congress. Also, public opinion was so swayed by the hearings that they had little choice.

Yeah, confidential test results should be confidential, but there’s no defense against leaks. And, when MLB publicly announces that they’ve got over 100 positive steroid tests, they’re inviting criminal investigations.

RJIB, I bet JS is holding out to get Gonzo (alone) for a package of Thorman and a prospect (not Salty!) or one of our OF’ers. Hope so.

By knowitall

January 11, 2007 01:30 PM | Link to this

Get Real, you are right. I won’t go through the process of trying to copy the charts and all of that stuff again but basically two things jumped out at me about Zimmer. When Parcells was hired, he retained Zimmer which tells you that the guy was a good coach because it’s rare that new head coaches retain coordinaters.

Secondly, the first year Parcells was hired(2003), Dallas had the league’s #1 defense as far as yardage allowed and ranked in the top 5 in almost every other meaningful category. This coincidently was the only year that Zimmer was allowed to use the 4-3 defense. Parcells favors the 3-4 but the first year Dallas didn’t have the personell to run it. After the first year, Parcells started bringing in 3-4 personell. Some even wondered if Zimmer would stay but he did. Now he has a chance to use the 4-3 again and I think the Falcons have some talent on defense so I think he’ll make a huge difference.

By Shaun

January 11, 2007 01:31 PM | Link to this

How about John Thomson:

“As far as just looking at Paul Lo Duca across the field, I’m not really into how he acts behind the plate,” Thomson said on a conference call. “I know a bit about [Toronto catcher] Gregg Zaun and I know he wants to win and he’s not going to let anything get in his way to do that, and I like that.

“And then with Vernon Wells in center field, I’m not really concerned about the outfield with him out there. … Just watching the Mets’ outfield, if Cliff Floyd is still there it’s not a real good fit for him out there. He can hit the ball, but as far as defense, he’s a little shaky.

“I just liked what’s happening in Toronto.”

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 11, 2007 01:35 PM | Link to this

As for Bonds, I believe the guy is guilty. However, his guilt does not in any way justify the leaks and witch hunts that have been directed his way. Look, he is far from the only guy who took steroids and I am a firm believer that some of the more “respectbable and upstanding” players of our times are guilty as well and will be exposed sooner than later.

Regarding the Pirates, I think they will make a deal. Now, if its for LaRoche, who knows? MBATL, I could see Littlefield taking a chance on Thorman for Gonazles if he got Prado, Escobar, or a pitching prospect in return. I think the Braves should offer Thorman and Stockman for Gonzales. That seems to be a fair enough trade. Of course, I think the closer spring training comes Littlefield may get desperate because of all the negative attention and give up Gonzales and Gorzelany for LaRoche and perhaps a guy like Paronto. But, who knows. Whatever happens JS is in the driver’s seat on this one.

By David O'Brien

January 11, 2007 01:35 PM | Link to this

Michael, I agree with your Coke-Mt. Dew analogy. And feel free to become a full-timer at any juncture.

Shaun, Cars were great band, very original and strong. But they were big well before 1982.

Great self-titled debut album came out in 1978, with “Just What I Needed,” “(Let The) Good Times Roll” and “Candy-O”

By Robert

January 11, 2007 01:37 PM | Link to this

Ah, youtube - try searching for “female gps” - that’s my favorite

Now, how about an All Oklahoma baseball team

C - Johnny Bench - Binger C - Mickey Tettleton - OKC 1b -Willie Stargell - Earlsboro 2b - Johnny Ray - Chouteau SS - Alvin Dark - Comanche 3b - Pepper Martin - Temple MI - Jerry Adair - Sand Springs Cr - Harlond Clift - El Reno Of - Mickey Mantle - Spavinaw Of - Paul Waner - Harrah Of - Lloyd Waner - Harrah Of - Bob Johnson - Pryor Of - Bobby Murcer - OKC DH - Joe Carter - OKC

Honorable Mention Paul Blair - Cushing Dale Mitchell - Colony Tim Flannery - Tulsa

SP - Allie Reynolds - Bethany SP - Ralph Terry - Big Cabin SP - Jeff Suppan - OKC RP- Lindy McDaniel - Hollis

Manager - Alvin Dark

Mentioned but wish his family had moved west sooner - Bobby Cox - Tulsa

By knowitall

January 11, 2007 01:41 PM | Link to this

dcarp23, don’t fail the test and you don’t have to worry about it becoming an issue.

Everyone, at 12:58 P.M. on January 11, 2007, Shaun made a post that contained no stats :-)

By knowitall

January 11, 2007 01:44 PM | Link to this

That should have read “with no mention of stats”.

By MBATL

January 11, 2007 01:56 PM | Link to this

RJIB, Bonds is not under scrutiny (by the Feds) because he hit a lot of home runs, or even because he’s not a nice guy. It’s because they believe he committed perjury in the BALCO case - and because Greg Anderson would rather sit in prison than tell what went on between them.

By Shaun

January 11, 2007 02:05 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

Well, even if you go to all the games, your eyes may deceive you. I mean players can make great plays but does that mean they are great defensive players? It may or may not. The most common example is Derek Jeter. If you watched him semi-regularly, you may think he’s a great fielder but the numbers indicate he is below average as far as getting to balls that a typical shortstop would get to.

Believe it or not, I do think watching games is a good idea. You need to evaluate based on observation and statistics. But statistics are very helpful. You can’t watch a game in which Honus Wagner played in (obviously no time machine and no video) but we know he was most likely the greatest shortstop in history mostly because we can evaluate him based on certain stats and the context in which he put up those stats.

By The Grinch

January 11, 2007 02:21 PM | Link to this

By Shaun

January 10, 2007 03:26 PM | Link to this

Jim,

Players generally start declining in their late 20’s. I’m not sure if it would have mattered had he taken a day off…we’ll never know. But he was still better than most players at his position up until the streak ended, so I doubt he hurt his teams by playing everyday.

Shaun, That’s the post I’m responding too, where you most certainly did say such a thing, or so it would appear. If I misinterpreted the above staement, I’m sorry. Oops. You know what? It looks like you’re talking about Ripkin in this post instead of Giles. My bad. My sentiment’s still the same, but to a much lesser degree…a day of rest will help anone, even if they’re 70, but Ripken was obviously older than Giles so the age 28 thing doesn’t play into it. I still promise you if I’m chopping wood for four days straight and I take a day off, I’ll be in a lot better shape to chop wood the next day even if I’m 50.

By Jim

January 11, 2007 02:21 PM | Link to this

Jack Morris, Tommy John and Bert Blyleven were good pitchers, but would you put then in the same grouping as Spahn, Koufax, Gibson, Seaver, Maddux, Clemens, and Pedro? They are a cut below.

If you expand the list to include Bunning, Sutton, Niekro, and Perry do they belong? If so, are they better qualified than Jim Kaat, Don Newcombe, Sal Maglie? To me I would look at a player’s best five years to see how dominant they were and then at his career stats. (Koufax’s best 5 years were essentially his career.) Longevity alone should not be enough to get into the hall, but 5 outstanding years should be a necessary, if not sufficient, condition.

I would also like to see the all-star rosters reduced to 25 players. Get rid of the rule of having to have a representative from each team (except maybe the host team), and let the best players play the whole game like they did into the 60’s. It made for a more entertaining game and led to some of the game’s more memorable moments like Williams hitting a game-winning HR in extra innings. A cameo appearance by a Royal or a Devil Ray is not going to boost interest very much in those cities, and the rest of the country would rather see the premier players have more than one or two ABs and not be around in the later innings. I would also place a limit on the number of relief pitchers each team could have. Having about 1/2 of the staff made up of closers limits the opportunity for a starter to make the team even though starters outnumber closers 5 to 1, and brings in the 1-inning specialists into the game as early as the 5th or 6th inning. I think baseball would be better served by a more entertaining game than by the media interview/photo-op that the event has become.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 11, 2007 02:27 PM | Link to this

Even if nothing else comes about in this latest Bonds deal, I hope, at least, that Mark Sweeney will b*h-slap the crap out of him for stealing his stuff and dragging his name through the mud with him. He sounds like a 14 year old that gets caught drinking by his parents and blames it on little Billy down the street.

Unknowingly???? WTF???? If I had the spotlight of the biggest steroid scandal in sports history on me, I’d be scared to even take a Tylenol without written approval.

By LeTwan Anthony

January 11, 2007 02:28 PM | Link to this

RobertJITB, did you see the Chipper joke? LeTwan will work on another for later this evening. Should go well with a piece of pie and some coffee.

By DonCoburleone

January 11, 2007 02:32 PM | Link to this

Wouldn’t it be easier for baseball (if they really want Bonds outed), to just sabotage him and make sure he fails a steroid test? I mean, how hard could it be to set him up? To me, in this situation, 2 wrongs do make a right…

By MBATL

January 11, 2007 02:42 PM | Link to this

The problem with longevity streaks is that they encourage guys to play when hurt, or managers to play them when hurt… which can jeapordize the player as well as the team’s chances on a given night. I don’t know how often this happened with Ripken, or Gehrig, but it seems to me that it would be a negative for the team.

I have a feeling that Francoeur is headed toward a longevity streak, and frankly I wish Bobby would just sit him - not on opening day, but game 2, or early - so it doesn’t become an issue.

By Shaun

January 11, 2007 02:43 PM | Link to this

The Grinch,

But would Cal Ripken taking a few days off at age 31 be better for the Orioles than having a lesser player in his place? I’m not sure about that. Maybe. But if so, not significantly.

My point was that I don’t think the streak hurt Ripken’s performance or his team’s performance. His decline was naturally caused by age, not by him playing every single game. He was still a great player when he started to decline and better than most other SS/3B the Orioles could have found to take his place.

By The Grinch

January 11, 2007 02:56 PM | Link to this

I agree, Shaun. I doubt it made much difference. All I was reacting to was what I thought was the statement that once you pass age 27, you’re so old rest won’t even help your body heal. That was what I thought your point was, and that’s why I flipped out. My apologies.

DonC, the problem with that idea is that if TPTB get caught, it would do the one worst thing in the world: make Bonds actually look like a sympathetic character. Surely we don’t want that?

By DonCoburleone

January 11, 2007 02:58 PM | Link to this

I can’t say I am rooting for Bonds to break Aaron’s all time HR record, but to me it is the perfect punishment for MLB and their frickin’ ignorance (or was it arrogance?) over this whole steroid issue. That total a$$ Bud Selig claiming he knew nothing about it for a decade and a half, despite the fact that he is the head of ML Baseball! Look at the numbers! It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out something was not right… 60 HR’s stands for 30 years, 61 HR’s stands for 30 years, and then suddenly, miraculously, 2 players break that in the same year??? And I don’t want to seem like I’m blaming just Selig, cuz that little snake Donald Fehr probably deserves more blame than Bud. But in my opinion, as the commisioner of the game, he could have stood up and announced to the world that this is enough, it has to stop or we (MLB) launch an investigation (he could have even gone to the US gov’t himself and those hearings would have taken place in 1999, instead of 2005). To me, Bonds is the monster that was created out of this whole thing, and when he breaks Hammerin’ Hank’s record I hope the first 2 people he thanks are Donald Fehr and Bud Selig for making it possible…

By knowitall

January 11, 2007 03:09 PM | Link to this

Shaun makes a good point regarding who would have taken Ripken’s place if he had sat out. After a few years went by, did the Orioles even carry a backup shortstop? I can see both sides of the arguement but remember also that at some point the streak became huge for the fans as well. That put butts in the seats and win or lose, owners like butts in the seats.

MBATL I doubt that Francour’s streak will reach anything of significance. Remember that Bobby Cox will be gone in a few years and a new manager will probably force him to sit out a few games.

By dcarp23

January 11, 2007 03:17 PM | Link to this

Knowitall-I concur with that. There’s no defense of people breaking the rules.

However, it has been a struggle for baseball to implement testing, and a good way to quickly lose all ground made up is to start releasing failed tests that aren’t supposed to be released. Sure, maybe you’ll nail Bonds, but the next time the Collective Bargaining Agreement comes up, it might be a struggle to include more stringent testing.

And additionally, you don’t tell someone that you’re going to keep tests confidential and then release them. On some level, that’s no better than failing the test.

By knowitall

January 11, 2007 03:19 PM | Link to this

DonC I never looked at it quite like that but your right. It will be a very interesting countdown to Bonds breaking the record. What should be a time of celebration will be a time of discontent. I wonder how baseball will handle it as far as recognizing the moment. Remember when Cal broke his record and jogged all the way around the stadium thanking the fans. Unless he breaks it in San Fran, I can’t imagine Bonds not getting booed. It would be even more awful if he were to do it in Atlanta. If that were to happen, the Braves should give out free baseballs that night so we can give him his proper reward.

By Shaun

January 11, 2007 03:19 PM | Link to this

MBATL,

That’s where trust comes in. Again, it certainly looks like the streak didn’t hurt Ripken or the Orioles considering he was an awesome player most of his career. But who knows? Maybe if he had taken a day off he would have been even more awesome. But it’s hard to argue that the streak hurt the Orioles considering Ripken was awesome his whole career.

By Robert

January 11, 2007 03:30 PM | Link to this

“Remember that Bobby Cox will be gone in a few years”

Thanks. Reading that made my day

By David O'Brien

January 11, 2007 03:32 PM | Link to this

Robert (JIB), Thorman and Stockman for Gonzalez? Not a chance in hades.

By TennesseePaul

January 11, 2007 03:39 PM | Link to this

players can make great plays but does that mean they are great defensive players?

Well, I’d strongly encourage going to more games. If one a day isn’t enough, get Tivo and just watch more games. It’s the most enjoyable way to analyze any aspect of the game. Lukily in Long Beach, I have access to 2 pro teams within 30 minutes of me and 1 more within 1.5 hours. Unfortunately, the Dodgers just turned the right field into an all-you-can-eat pavillion. You used to be able to sit in that section, buy 2 dogs and 2 drinks for a total of $22. Now it’s $40 for a seat, but, if you can manage to eat more than 6 dogs and 2 drinks during one game, you can break even. In the mean time, they are now offering an endless supply of projectiles for a flat fee. Pierre better perform extremely well.

By Shaun

January 11, 2007 03:41 PM | Link to this

I know historians will properly judge Bonds, but it will still be a major black mark for baseball if he breaks the HR record. But DonCoburleone makes a good point, MLB did this to itself. The only thing they can do is hope he can’t make it to 755. That’s baseball’s only hope of somewhat saving themselves in this situation.

By knowitall

January 11, 2007 03:43 PM | Link to this

I walked right into that one.

By David O'Brien

January 11, 2007 03:46 PM | Link to this

Flange1, just saw your post about Pittsburgh. Coincidentally, I just got off the phone with Dejan, the Pirates writer you referred to, about an hour or so ago.

He said Littlefield is getting torched in the press and by fans up there for having $17 mill or so to spend this winter and not doing anything with it, and for not pulling trigger on a deal for LaRoche.

However, as I said all along, I didn’t think Braves would do it for anything less than two impact guys, not just Gonzalez and a prospect who wouldn’t help the Braves this season. And that’s what it sounds like, from what Dejan said, is happening _ Braves are demanding Gonzalez and at least one other impact guy from group of starters or Duffy, and Pirates aren’t likely to do that.

If I had to guess, I don’t think deal will get done, because I think Braves know that trading LaRoche for Gonzalez and a prospect would make the offense and defense significantly less effective next year while making the bullpen stronger.

By knowitall

January 11, 2007 04:13 PM | Link to this

I know the players don’t trust the owners but the truth of the matter is that this information is leaked in all sports. I mean look at track and field. Football does a relatively good job of it. The first positive tests are usually pretty secretive but the second positive test that prompts the suspension is always leaked before the appeal process is complete.

By rammerjammer

January 11, 2007 04:18 PM | Link to this

DOB, Schuerholz has the upper hand and is waiting to see if Littlefield blinks.

The fans there oughta rip Littlefield; that proposed deal is sweet for the Bucs. Gonzalez is good, but they lost 95 games with him. And Duffy bolted the team when the chips were down; lots of potential but only one good month.

LaRoche was one of the league’s best first basemen after the break and there’s no logical reason to think he’ll regress next season.

The trade addresses both teams’ weaknesses. If Littlefield won’t pull the trigger, well, there’s a reason he’s not loved. Check out this excerpt from his wikipedia bio: “Received notoriety for trading Aramis Ramirez for a bucket of fish.”

By Matthew

January 11, 2007 04:19 PM | Link to this

How far is Franceour from breaking the Braves’ consecutive games streak> If its just a game or two, then let him do it. After that, rest him every a little to preserve him for the long haul and the playoffs.

LeTwan brought up a great idea. I need to see if my grandmother can make me a chocolate mereguine (sp) pie. She made one at Christmas, and I still haven’t recovered. Outstanding.

Now baseball trades. I like the Thorman, Stockman, and a starter (Davies and perhaps Lerew) for Gonzales and Duffy.

By Matthew

January 11, 2007 04:20 PM | Link to this

DOB, thanks for the info. I wish I’d read it before posting.

By David O'Brien

January 11, 2007 04:21 PM | Link to this

I should say, “could” make the offense significantly less effective. For while I’m fairly certain Thorman wouldn’t come very close to LaRoche’s production, you never know with absolute certainty. I do know, however, that the right side of the infield with Kelly and Thorman would have the potential to be quite bad defensively.

By flange1

January 11, 2007 04:30 PM | Link to this

Hi DOB,

Thanks for the answer! I have always thought that if we threw in a pitching prospect like Larue, we could get the starter and Gonzales that we want from the Pirates. Maybe I am stuck on the Baldelli thing, but I think if we could get a starter from Pittsburgh, add Salty or Davies or Escobar and flip them to Tampa Bay for Baldelli we would be net better off. Heck I would send the Pittsburgh starter, Escobar and Cormier to the D Rays. They need pitching that is ready NOW so give them 2 and Escobar. Your thoughts?

By JC FROM UT

January 11, 2007 04:33 PM | Link to this

DOB: Do you think Texas would/could make an offer to get either Hudson or Andruw or maybe even both? I thnk trading Hudson would really help out in the long run. JS could sign Mark Redman to take Hudson’s place in the rotation for this year and maybe next, by giving Redman 1 year plus an option. What do you think?

By Thrillhouse44

January 11, 2007 04:47 PM | Link to this

DOB, Thanks for the info from your 3:46 post. Do a lot pitchers have a problem with Lo Duca’s antics or is it just Thomson?

By LeTwan Anthony

January 11, 2007 04:59 PM | Link to this

Chipper was “fixin’” to go hunting with LaRoche and was shopping at a Target Store where he came across a silver thermos.

Chipper was quite fascinated by it, so he picked it up and brought it over to the clerk to ask what it was. The clerk said, “That’s a thermos it keeps some things hot and some things cold”

“Wow, said Chipper, “uh, that’s amazing. I’m going to buy it!” So he bought the thermos and took it into the woods the next day. LaRoche saw the new thermos. “What do you have there?” he asked.

“Uh, that’s a thermos … it keeps some things hot and some cold things cold,” Chipper replied.

LaRoche inquired, “What do you have in it? ”

Chipper replied, “Uh, two Popsicles, and some coffee”.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 11, 2007 05:22 PM | Link to this

LaTwan, I’m speechless. I hope if Chipper is the “prominent” Brave that is the one who blogs here that he has a sense of humor. Chipper is my favorite current Brave, but that was funny. Damn funny!!!!!!!!!!!

By AdirondackDave

January 11, 2007 05:36 PM | Link to this

La Twan - Yes, that may be funny but humor at other people’s expense is still in bad taste. This sort of thing reflects far more on you than it does on the person who is the object of your derision.

By DonCoburleone

January 11, 2007 05:38 PM | Link to this

You are right DOB, having Kelly Johnson and Scott Thorman manning that side of the infield is a pretty scary thought… And looking at Duffy’s stats, they really aren’t impressive at all. In 314 AB’s last year, he only batted .255 with an OBP of .317! Not to mention he struck out 71 times! That’s 1 strikeout every 4.42 AB’s! Compare that to strikout machines Francoeur - 1 every 4.9AB’s and Andruw - 1 every 4.5AB’s. WE DON’T NEED ANOTHER STRIKEOUT MACHINE IN THIS LINEUP! This is supposed to be our lead-off and center fielder for the next 5-10 years? He did steal 26 out of 27 bases last year, but what does that matter if his OBP is the same as Francoeur’s and he strikes out more often than Andruw Jones?

However, all that being said, I’d still take him over Rocc(ow I’m hurt again) Baldelli!

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 11, 2007 05:42 PM | Link to this

I need to break this Barry Bonds thing down. First of all, I think Bonds was 100% wrong to say where or from whom he received the amphetamines. However, I find it quite interesting the people who are saying Bonds is a snitch and rat for telling. Really? It is the same people who have been saying for two years that other players in the majors should be outing anyone who they knew were taking steroids. I am finding difficulty in differentiating the difference. Fact is Bonds didn’t out Sweeny in public. He said Sweeney’s name when asked by a MLB investigator where he got the drugs. He told the investigator on the assumption of non-disclosure or privacy. Now, I still say he should have kept his mouth closed, but I don’t care to hear anyone else running their mouths about him being a snitch. Because the majority of the ones saying that are the same ones who have said that other players have a moral obligation to out those they know are guilty. That is called H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y!

I’m not defending Bonds at all. He is guilty and was totally wrong to throw Sweeney’s name out there like that. But, it is ridiculous for people to say on one hand players should tell of those they knew were taking steroids but on the other rip Bonds for being a rat. This just goes to show this is all about Barry Lamar Bonds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think Barry should do the right thing and step away from the game but he isn’t going to do that.

By StingerSplash

January 11, 2007 06:05 PM | Link to this

DOB, Where’s the love for Georgia-based rock heroes Drivin n Cryin (also big baseball fans). I was at a show about 10 years ago when just as they started their set and the TV behind the bar was showing a playoff game, Tim Nielsen, the bass player, was watching as he was playing and shouted, “Come on, Fred McGriff!” and everybody turned around to see the game on TV. And yes, Crime Dog was up at the plate. And The Jayhawks (Louris and Olsen, not the Bill Selfs) put out two immensely unbelievably fantastic albums. Let me also lament some of the young pitchers who were turned to mush by the Braves - Joe Johnson, Kevin Coffman, Kevin Blankenship, even Derek Lilliquist, Gary Eave, et al. Has anyone noted Craig McMurtry and his contributions? Or how about Pete Smith and his sterling 1993 season after he was called back up? I always thought he was going to be better than Glavine. Missed on that one.

By DonCoburleone

January 11, 2007 06:09 PM | Link to this

Okay Robert, wow, um, I don’t even know where to begin with what you just said… Let me guess, next your going to say this whole thing surrounding Bonds is just the racist white media going after a successful black man right?

By DonCoburleone

January 11, 2007 06:28 PM | Link to this

I don’t want him to step away from the game… Him breaking the HR record is like MLB having to eat in the same place they took a sh!t years ago. They created this mess and now it is biting them in the a$$!

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

January 11, 2007 06:37 PM | Link to this

Well, actually, Don, I’m not. I have said all along that I don’t think this has anything to do with race at all if you have bothered to read any of my posts on the subject you would know that. I’m just saying that hypocrisy and personal dislike of Bonds is involved in this. I’m not defending him and nothing I said inferred that. You tell me. That doesn’t smack of hypocrisy for folks to say on one hand that other players should out those who are guilty of cheating and the source of their “enhancements” yet label Bonds a snitch (which he is). That is all I’m saying. Bonds is in the same boat as Canseco to me. He ratted out another player in an attempt to save his a**! However, I just find it interesting how people change their ways and thoughts when it comes to Bonds. Just say that you hate him and everything he does is wrong. That I can respect. And, yes this whole steroid thing is has more to do with Bonds and the homerun record than anything.

You don’t find it a bit disgusting that Major League Baseball is trying to be the “moral conscience” in all this. Tell me this. Back in the late ’80s and ’90s when there were more than whispers about steroids why did managers, gms, and baseball execs all look the other way? Why? Kevin Towers (GM of the Padres) himself admitted that he thought Caminiti was on the roids and some others as well. He stood up and was accountable. We all want the players to take responsibility. What about the higherups in baseball who suspected, if not outright knew, what was going on?

Don, I actually kind of resent it being implied that I am bringing race into it. I’m black and take racism very seriously and never accuse people of racism unless I think it truly exists. In Bonds’ case it does not. This is about a record and the fact Bonds is a jerk who has burned many bridges over the course of his life. All I’m saying is that we all are guilty of hypocrisy about this issue. Myself included. I remember back in 1998 when the Andro was found in McGwire’s locker. The reporter who saw it was not hearlded or highly regarded. He was called “nosy” and “intrusive”. Why didn’t we all call for McGwire’s head right then and there? If that had been Bonds, would have received such a pass? I highly doubt it.

BONDS IS A SNITCH. I still had some respect for him until today. He should have never named Mark Sweeney. However, I don’t care to hear any self-righteous bs from others who are calling for players to talk to George Mitchell and do the same thing Bonds did under the assumption of privacy. That is all. If you think I’m an apologist or a jerk for that, then so be it.

By DonCoburleone

January 11, 2007 06:53 PM | Link to this

Fair enough Robert…

By David O'Brien

January 11, 2007 07:02 PM | Link to this

StingerSplash, hey man _ I get such lukewarm response here every time I mention Drivin’ and Cryin’ that I don’t bother anymore. Glad to see someone appreciates ‘em. Good band.

Now the Jayhawks _ absolutely dig the Jayhawks (the band, and the team). And they had way more than two great albums. Try about five. Their last one, Rainy Day Music (terrific album, maybe their best), Hollywood Town Hall, Tomorrow the Green Grass, and Sound of Lies were all great.

I also liked Tim O’Regan’s solo album that came out about a year ago.

And did you get the great CD by The Thorns, who are Matthew Sweet, Pete Droge and Shawn Mullins? Got a Jayhawks sound to it, in all the best ways.

By David O'Brien

January 11, 2007 07:05 PM | Link to this

Thrillhouse, Lo Duca is one of those players who are hated by many on other teams and liked by most teammates, because of the cockiness, etc. That said, Thomson’s comments were really over-the-top. Guys don’t call out players on other teams unprovoked in a situation like that, on the day you sign a contract. Just didn’t make sense. Maybe he had a couple pops before that conference call. For his sake, kinda hope he did.

By LeTwan Anthony

January 11, 2007 07:12 PM | Link to this

AdirondackDave, your lesson in morality is appreciated. No derision there - just a lighthearted joke. You are the one deriding Littlefield - says something about you. Let’s not argue. Life is too short. Your friend, LeTwan

By Rosalynn

January 11, 2007 07:28 PM | Link to this

I can’t blog foah long tonight. Jimma has had a vera bad day. You may have read about it in the papah. I was thinking about Barra Bonds and this deal with his head being so large and I got to thinking about that boy Newt Gingrich who also has a vera large head. That’s all. Just thinking. I read that Barra took some medicine he found in anotha playah’s locka and that medicine turned out to be amphetamines. If that is true then Barra should be asked to take an enema. That’s how we handled that sorta situation back in Plains. Goodnight, bloggas.

By DonCoburleone

January 11, 2007 07:34 PM | Link to this

“Thomson’s comments were really over-the-top. Guys don’t call out players on other teams unprovoked in a situation like that, on the day you sign a contract.”

Couldn’t agree more, that’s Bush-League stuff right there…

By brian

January 11, 2007 09:19 PM | Link to this

Honeysuckle Blue - may favorite Drivin’ and Cryin’ song. Great band

By The Grinch

January 11, 2007 09:30 PM | Link to this

Brian, just checked into the blog to find you put another song even more overplayed than “Stand” in my head…are you really Berigan? If not, your musical tase is apparently the absolute antithesis of mine. Not that there’s anything wrong with that…more power to you. I’d just hate to be locked in a lightless cell in alcatrazz with nothing but the contents of your I-pod playing through loudspeakers. :-)

By flange1

January 11, 2007 10:13 PM | Link to this

Good Evening!

On JT,

I always thought John Thomson was one of those quiet guys that did not talk much except in private to his friends. The LoDuca thing is weird, I would not think of that coming out of Thomson’s mouth, maybe Sosa’s mouth (in Spanish of course) but not Thomson. Maybe he will finally get aggressive…..

On Drivin and Cryin,

I don’t care who says what, they are a GOOD band and Kevin Kinney is one talented MF… His style is different, his delivery is different, is voice is different,

BUT SO ARE neil young and bob dylan…

Solo and acoustic, he has stories to tell and melodies that are fresh. The band can be soft or rockin. Records are one thing, live is another.

If you want ti dis them OK with me, but at least see them live and then decide….

By brian

January 11, 2007 10:20 PM | Link to this

at least I didn’t say Straight to Hell or Fly Me Courageous.

Grinch I bet you are a big fan of the John Mellencamp song played in the Chevy commercial that I hear over, and over, and over, and over again

By David O'Brien

January 11, 2007 11:30 PM | Link to this

Grinch, you gonna line up tomorrow for first showing of the Justin Timberlake movie Alpha Dog? Looks like J-Dawg is a bad MF in this one (ok, tough to write that without worrying someone might think I’m serious).

But seriously….

So, should I rip off ESPN’s idea of ranking the ballparks (not that they’re the first _ or 50th _ to do it, but they just happened to do it on ESPN.com today, so if I do it in the next few days it’ll be obvious what inspired me).

If I do it, I’d want to rank every single park, all 30 (since no new ones are opening next year, I’ve been to all 30 current ones, so I wouldn’t have to cheat and act like I’ve been to a couple that I haven’t like a lot of these folks do who rank the ballparks).

So, as the man on Entourage would say, would that be something that would interest you? If nothing else, it’ll give us a clean slate on which to blog, riducule and abuse each other some more.

By David O'Brien

January 11, 2007 11:36 PM | Link to this

Oh, and I gotta admit, I really liked that Mellencamp ditty the first 100 or so times I heard it. But I like most of what the man sings. Never get tired of Small Town, Check It Out, Jackie Brown….

But yeah, hearing the same 20 seconds of that song on a Chevy Trucks commercial gets a bit annoying.

By David O'Brien

January 11, 2007 11:52 PM | Link to this

Brian, what’s wrong with Straight to Hell? I really like that Drivin n’ Cryin song. Should I not like that one? Damn, I always thought that was a cool song. Although not as cool as The Clash’s Straight to Hell….

“Lemme tell ya ‘bout your blood bamboo kid/It ain’t Coca-Cola, it’s rice….”

By flbravesgirl

January 12, 2007 12:36 AM | Link to this

DOB, I’ll assume that Tropicana Field will be #30. There can’t be a worse one. The only good things about it I can think of:1. It has a roof and AC (necessary in FL. Looks like the Marlins are gonna get a new retractable roof park, good for them). 2.It’s easy to get good seats. 3. They have Outback and Dippin’ Dots.

Robert, I nominated Benito Santiago for the all-ugly team yesterday but the blog seems to have eaten the post.

By Head Coach

January 12, 2007 01:05 AM | Link to this

O’Brien , John Mellencamp all but defined my generation back in the day. Racing cars , hanging out at the roller rink on a friday night bumping and grinding with the girls while listening to John Cougar , Bob Seger , Tom Petty , The Stones and all the rest of those great long hair bands from the 70’s and 80’s . Good memory’s of my hell raising youth. Mellencamp’s compilation of his greatest hits on his ” The best that I could do 1978-1988” album is definitely in my top ten.

By Lew

January 12, 2007 01:10 AM | Link to this

FBG- The Thunder Dome (can you believe they actually called it that at one time?) may come in last, but it is the only stadium whose official opening I attended. That should count for something. DOB-The Lonesome Jubilee is a real fine album. Good Night. It’s going down to about 7 degrees tonight.

By The Grinch

January 12, 2007 07:20 AM | Link to this

So this is what 7 am looks like. Not impressed. Based on the last song brought up, and the fact that I’ve watched almost every single college and pro game on cable this season, I thought I’d share my very favorite experience during EVERY SINGLE COMMERCIAL BREAK.

*”Well I can stand beside/ideals I think are right

And I can stand beside/the idea to stand and fight…*

(get up, go to the bathroom, go to the kitchen, make a sandwich, grab a beer, come back…)

*From the East Coast, to the West Coast

Down the Dixie Highway…

Blah, blah, blah…

This is our country*

Check this page out; this guy says it better than I ever could: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/76809/screwyoujohn_mellencamp.html I mean, I liked “Jack and Diane” as much as anyone, but…

Dave, I’d like to hear your review of those ballparks; I expect your opinions would be a welcome change from those Red Sox fans from ESPN. And no, I’m not going to see Justin Timberlake. I DID see Lance Bass from one of those fruity boy-bands try to charm his way through a celebrity/pro poker tournament the other night; it was hilarious. He got caught up three hands in a row with thse two pro chicks and Jennifer Tilly (who’s good enough to be a pro), and kept betting on nothing and smiling at them like “I’m Lance Bass, aren’t you just sliding off your seats right now?” They busted him out in like 5 minutes. Then the hot sideline reporter (yes, poker has those now but they look much better than in regular sports) asks him: “So, Lance, what’s it like to get busted out in three plays?” And he tries to throw that same “I’m Lance Bass, don’t you want to go back to my hotel room?” schtick on her and she’s like “Beat it, loser.” Good stuff.

By Paul

January 12, 2007 07:40 AM | Link to this

Dave,

Why not bring Rudy Seanez back? He could come out to “Rudy Can’t Fail.” So what if he has an ERA above 5. That would be priceless. (Back in the day he pitched effectively for us) If you read the headlines in the Pittsburg Post Gazette it has an article on Laroche. It states that the Pirates are moving on but they are not moving on. Did Littlefield pitch for the Pirates in the early 80’s? Hey Grinch, Bass wouldn’t be interested in the reporter. He came out a few months ago.

By The Grinch

January 12, 2007 07:48 AM | Link to this

The link didn’t go through all the way. The last part of it is mellencamp.html. I promise it’s worth it. Anyone else completely confused as to how a U.S. soccer team thinks it’s going to get 250 million back in revenues from signing that British dude when nobody in America watches soccer? The guy retired from playing in England ‘cause he’s too old to play so we pay an A-Rod contract for him to come over here where soccer ratings are stuck somewhere between “Paid Programming” at 2 am and “Paid Programming” at 4 am. What a bunch of d-bags. And we can’t even come up with 7 mil for Glavine from a sport that people DO actually watch.

By Scalp 'Em Braves

January 12, 2007 09:16 AM | Link to this

To the person who posted yesterday, about Frenchy’s “streak”, and whether he was only a few games away from the Braves record…. he’s not. Dale Murphy holds that record with 740 games. That’s 4.5 seasons. Frenchy has a little ways to go, and as recklessly as he plays the OF (not criticizing, just observing), he’s not likely to stay injury free for that long.

On JCM - I like his older stuff - pre “Jackie & Diane”, “Ain’t that America”, etc. “I Need a Lover (that won’t drive me crazy)”, “Hurts So Good”, “The Authority Song” - most of it before he retook his last name. And Grinch, I totally agree with you on the Chevy commericial - JCM refused to license his songs for use in advertising. With the Chevy thing, all he did was recycle “Ain’t that America” so he could maintain his cred of not selling out.

By The Grinch

January 12, 2007 09:22 AM | Link to this

Mn, I’m sick of Home Depot. Been waiting for those a-holes out in my yard to make a delivery for about an hour. “We’re right around the corner..hu-huh.” Anyhoo…Ha! What a shock. Lance Bass is gay. I guess all the other “guys” in the band had no idea. Unless…oh, my God! Could there be more than one? Not that there’s anything wrong with that…:-)

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 12, 2007 09:35 AM | Link to this

Hey Grinch,

I thought I heard a few months back that that Bass dude publicly came out of the closet. Can anybody confirm that?

I’m not a big JCM fan, but I was rockin out to some “Little Pink Houses” yesterday on my way to the deer camp. How ironic.

“there’s a young man,

in a t-shirt,

listening to a rock n roll station.

he’s got greasy hair, and a

greasy smile. Said ‘Lord this must be my destination.’ “

By The Grinch

January 12, 2007 09:36 AM | Link to this

Scalp, are you actually saying there are people in this country (OUR country, by the way, in case you didn’t know) that actually don’t consider this a sell-out? I’d love to see him and Toby Keith in a steel-cage Ford vs. Chevy death match to declare once and for all which is the best pick-up truck or who’s the bigger patriot.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 12, 2007 09:41 AM | Link to this

Sorry Paul. didn’t see the last part of your post.

By Scalp 'Em Braves

January 12, 2007 09:44 AM | Link to this

Grinch:

It’s no contest - Lee Greenwood is the biggest patriot - and Gawd I’m sick of hearing that song!! Did the guy ever do anything else?

By Lew

January 12, 2007 09:54 AM | Link to this

What-No love for Jimi Hendrix’s patriotic version of The Star Spangled Banner?

By Arkansas Hillbilly

January 12, 2007 09:59 AM | Link to this

Grinch that’s an easy one. Toby Keith hands down. He’s an “American Soldier” you know. JCM fights autority, authority always wins. Keith would slap him around like a little bi**h and say “who’s your daddy? Hurts so good don’t it, Diane???”

No seriously I’m not a Toby Keith fan either and I drive a Dodge Ram so I’ll stay out of this debate. How do like me, now? =)

By Shaun

January 12, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

How about the fact that Francouer made outs at a worse rate than anyone on the team with over 300 at-bats (an out in a whopping 70.7 of his plate appearances) yet was allowed to come to the plate more than anyone on the team? How many runs would the Braves have scored had they let player like Diaz and Langerhans, who actually had respectable out rates, share some of those plate appearances with Francouer?

(Just trying to stir up some baseball debate. You know I’m good for that.)

By BB FAN

January 12, 2007 10:30 AM | Link to this

Shaun,

Players don’t “generally start declining in their late 20’s”. The average peak production for a player is normally between ages 28-32. That’s when players generally start a slight decline.

Ripken’s streak was simply amazing. And I applaud him for it. However, I would bet money that he would have been more productive had he taken a few days off each year.

The same goes for Andruw Jones. Cox should really sit him a few games a month starting in June each year. I think his batting average would be better if he got the rest and “only” played 150-152 games a year. Over the years, it seems like his average was in the high .270’s but fell off the last 2-34 weeks of the year. It would seem to me that a extra few days off during the hot days in June, July and August would help keep him fresh.

Don’t get me wrong, I like the fact that Andruw goes out there and plays everyday. It shows great team leadership. However, he could probably use some rest once in a while.

By The Grinch

January 12, 2007 10:32 AM | Link to this

Ok, ok…sorry, I don’t have my computer set to the Lance Bass home page; guess I missed that one. The show must have been a re-run from a year or two ago.

I meant bigger patriot between the two I mentioned. I play Jimmy’s SSB every fourth and Greenwood…man. Was there anything much creepier when we invaded Afghanistan and Greenwood came out the first time on nat. TV in years to sing that song? He had a look on his face like “Thank God for another war! My royalties were drying up!” I wonder if he secretly has a hammer and sickle flag in his bedroom.

By Shaun

January 12, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

BB FAN,

Unfortunately I don’t have any links to any research but a number of studies reveal that players generally peak in around age 26-28.

As far as days off, maybe it would have helped Ripken and the O’ and would help Andruw and the Braves, maybe not. There are a lot of factors to consider. A big factor is who you have to replace Ripken or AJ on an off day. Was Rene Gonzales at 95 percent better than Ripken at 80 percent? Is Langerhans at 95 percent better than AJ at 80 percent? Hard to say.

It would be an interesting study. You’d probably have to look at all the games in which Ripken did virtually nothing to help his team win and look at the players who would have replaced him and the chance that they would have done something to help the O’s.

But the biggest argument for Ripken NOT taking a day off is the fact that it looks like he didn’t have many games where he did nothing to help his team win, based on his remarkable numbers.

By StingerSplash

January 12, 2007 11:25 AM | Link to this

DOB,

You liked Rainy Day Music? Really? Couldn’t get into it. Sorry. Forgot about Sound of Lies. It’s good, but I don’t think it compares to Hollywood Town Hall (listened to that on the way home last night and driving into work this morning) and Tomorrow the Green Grass (I could listen to Over My Shoulder all day long). I didn’t include Blue Earth because it was not released terribly widely, and I haven’t listened to everything off it. BTW, Louris/Olsen played a couple of years ago at the Variety Playhouse and were freakin’ awesome! Saw the DBTs there a year before, with Slobberbone opening, and man was that a great show. Saw DNC’s 20th anniversary show in Charleston a summer ago. I’ve seen them dozens of times - literally - but had never heard them play “Can’t Promise You the World” until then. Surprised, and delighted. Now if you’ll excuse me, I need a pick me up to get me through the rest of the day. Barry said Mark’s got something in his locker that’ll do the trick.

By David O'Brien

January 12, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

Shaun, I think those studies are going to have to be reevaluated slightly, however, with all the guys playing so well into their mid- to upper-30s now, not just pitchers but even position guys, some even making it to 40 like Moises Alou and Finley. I know it’s not a huge number, but there’s a lot getting up into their mid-30s and still playing at a high level these days. And the pitchers, that’s really changed in the past couple decades, used to be only Nolan Ryan and knuckleballers made it to 40.

Stinger, definitely liked Rainy Day Music. Saw them sing most of that at Tabernacle, as opening act for Lucinda. What a fantastic show.

By the way, just listening to Car Wheels on a Gravel Road last night, the deluxe edition they put out recenlty that’s got a second disc with a live show they did of most of that material. She’s as good as any songwriter going, and seriously might be as good as any female songwriter at least since Joni Mitchell.

And Lucinda’s my kind of voice. She’s so good, so raw, so bluesy.

By Jim

January 12, 2007 11:54 AM | Link to this

Shaun,

The most comparable players to Ripken among his contemporaries were (1) Robin Yount (B 1955), and second basemen Sandberg (b 1959) and Molitor (b 1956). The most comparable player today would be Derek Jeter. None of them declined to the extent that Ripken did after his 5th season. Yount in 1983 (10th season)— 1988 (age 33)hit .308 102 R, 58 RBI; .298 105, 80; .277, 76, 68 in 122 G; .312 82, 46; .312 99 103; .306, 92, 91; Molitor in 1988 —age 32 — hit .312, 115 R, 60 RBI (now playing 3B). In his 11th season this year, Jeter had probably his best season in pro ball. All 5 players are or will be Hall of famers, but the streak separates Ripken from the others for better and for worse. As good players get older their different skill sets change, but they don’t decline noticeably until their mid to late 30’s.

My main point in raising this discussion is that the Braves will be better served if Francouer rest for 5 - 10 games/year, and yes the team will be better with a fresh Langerhans/Diaz playing RF than a tired Francouer during those games and into September/October. The effect of long streaks on Ripken’s and Murphy’s numbers is only speculative but cautionary. With Francouer there is a chance to do something to prevent a possible premature burnout.

By David O'Brien

January 12, 2007 11:58 AM | Link to this

Head coach, I hear you on Mellencamp. I hear his stuff and it just makes me think of good times growing up, even if some of those times weren’t as good as his songs make me think they were, if that makes any sense.

Grinch, the link to the Mellencamp bashing didn’t work for me (I’m just assuming it Mellencamp bashing. I really don’t even need to see it. I can already imagine what it says, and I’m just going to guess it might stem from that person disagreeing with John’s politics….

Not to go off on a tangent, and this has absolutely nothing to do with you, Grinch, believe me, but that gets me thinking about something:

Man, if you’re a country recording artist in this country, it amazes me how you gotta toe the line, not criticize a president (or Nashvill), even if you’re talking about the gov’t screwing over the American farmer (like Mellencamp, who raises tons of money through Farm-Aid), much less if you criticize something like foreign policy _ oooh, can’t do that.

Or else you better be ready for critics to start picking apart your music as though it were somehow related.

But if you’re one of these ol’ boys who pump the fist and say let’s kick their butts, well, you can put out a bunch of total garbage, completely shallow lyrics, mediocre playing, derivative of a thousand bad artists before you, and you’ll get a free pass from many who’ll say, I like that boy’s music. Simple. Good. Uhhh.

Just amazes me. Even Hag gets bashed by some of them, solely because he’s had the temerity to question authority. He was fine when he was bashing flag-burners and pot-smokers 30 or 40 years ago, but ‘ol Hag lost his way since then, they’ll tell each other, these jingoistic wise men. Gimme some Lee Greenwood.

By berigan

January 12, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

Shaun Since you are stat freak, I’ve got challenge for you, that you might enjoy. I have been hearing about peak years, for , well years. I have a feeling though that good to great players don’t fit those years as well as platoon, utility players. I may be wrong(I was once, in 1987) But it would be interesting to see the best years of players that either won 150 or more games, or drove in 1000 or more RBIS.

I think some of the reason I feel this way is because of folks like McGuire and Bonds taking Steriods in their 30’s but still….it could be interesting. There are always abberations. A few pre steroid era players off the top of my head. Hal McCrae. The best Average year was when he was 30 (.332) He never drove in more than 92 RBI’s until he was 36, when he drove in 133! Darrell Evans One great year at the age of 26( 41Hr, 104 RBI) In the next 11 years, he never drove in more than 82 RBIs(Which he did his last year in the NL at the age of 36. After another crappy offensive year(16HR 61 RBI) in the old bandbox in Detroit in 1984(When they won it all) he then had the 2nd, 3rd and 4th best years of his career, starting at the age of 38 he drove in 94 rbis,then 85, and finally 99 RBIs at the age of 40. How about the other D. Evans, Dwight??? at the age of 29, he never drove in more than 71 RBIs in a season. Then he turned 30 and drove in 98 RBIs. at the age of 32, he drove in 104. at 34, 97. at the age of 35, 123. 36, 111 RBI’s, and his last really good year, at the age of 37, 100 RBI’s. You could argue that Babe Ruth had his best years in his 30’s.

Anyway, you get the point. I would find it interesting to see everyone who drove in 1000 RBIs, when their best seasons were…..won’t you make my dream come true?? ;)

By BB FAN

January 12, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

Kevin Maas did not decline. He just wasn’t that good to begin with. He was lucky for that half season. Then the league caught up to him. But it wasn’t because his skills declined.

By ernesto

January 12, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

I’m late to the party on up with Drivn’ n Cryin’ props, but how could anyone not like that band? Scarred but Smarter is one of my all time favorite songs. They should have been far bigger.

By Shaun

January 12, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this

O’Brien,

Yeah, I think the decline may be slower nowadays for certain players (types of players?). It would be interesting to look at that. Based on what I’ve heard, though, the age at which players peak hasn’t changed much over the year. And that makes sense considering everyone has access to the same technology, training methods, etc.

But it seems like certain players do decline at a slower rate. But also, I’ve read/heard that the more talented the player, the better they are going to age—the more skills you have the more you can make up for declining skills. George Brett’s a good example. When his bat slowed down, he became even more patient at the plate.

Even Honus Wagner was a great player into his very late 30’s in the 1910’s. There are always going to be freaks of nature that decline much slower than their peers.

Jim,

Ripken did win an MVP at age 30 and didn’t have a particularly poor season until age 39. Well, he only played in 86 and 83 games at ages 38 and 39 respectively. I’m not sure Ripken was significantly worse than those other players after 30 when you consider context.

As with everything, context is something to consider. A players stats may look more impressive at a later age, but extraneous circumstances may have caused them peak later or appear to have peaked later. What I mean is maybe a player was lazy or injured or stuck in the minors during what should have been his peak so he actually peaked later. Or maybe he played in Dodger Stadium during his peak years and Coors Field at age 33-35.

My thought is Ripken was an awesome player into his mid- to late-30’s. He probably didn’t hurt his team until his late 30’s because he was probably as good as anyone that could have taken his place. I could be wrong, but it’s hard for me to see that he hurt his team with the streak.

By Shaun

January 12, 2007 01:09 PM | Link to this

berigan,

The way I understand it, baseball players are naturally the most talented at around age 26-28. Now, extraneous circumstances may cause them to peak later or earlier. And maybe context just causes their numbers to look better later or earlier but they were actually at their best around 26-28. Also, certain numbers are more telling than others so maybe a player drove in more runs at 36 than he did at 26 because he hit behind a Rickey Henderson or somebody who was always on base. Also, there probably are a handful of freaks of nature who don’t peak when they should (which is why I use the word “generally”). And one more thing: players with more skills decline slower than others. Players that are very awesome during their peak may still be merely awesome during their decline phase.

BB FAN,

Kevin Maas had what are referred to as “old player skills.” He was slow, bad defense and didn’t hit for a high average. But he hit for power and got on base/avoided outs. Once his bat slowed down, pretty much all he had left was plate discipline and, as valuable as that is, it’s still not good if that is the only skill in your arsenal. Major league pitchers can just throw you 95-mph fastballs for strikes and get you out. (One interesting piece of work on player aging is a chapter in Baseball Between the Numbers entitled “Why was Kevin Maas a bust?”).

By Shaun

January 12, 2007 01:15 PM | Link to this

BB FAN,

Maas probably could have handled the majors much earlier but the Yankees had Mattingly at 1B and other players at DH so he didn’t get a chance until right before his decline. So he was a good player, but didn’t have the skills needed to stick in the majors past his late 20’s.

By The Grinch

January 12, 2007 01:15 PM | Link to this

Dave, I have a sneaky suspicion you’d agree with the dude I tried to link to, or at least appreciate the humor. So, here’s the text:

“John Mellencamp performed his new single, “Our Country,” before Game 2 of the World Series on Sunday night. Let me explain why this perturbed me to the point of gouging my eyes out with a pool cue. Mellencamp arrived on the baseball diamond three minutes after being introduced. He didn’t seem to be in a hurry. Sure, he was holding up the World Series, but he’s John Mellencamp! He’s a god! All of the kids listen to him. You can’t go to a skateboarding park without hearing “Pink Houses” or “Jack and Diane” reverberating from the boombox of some teenaged ruffian.

If you have yet to hear Mellencamp’s new single, you must not watch television. The patriotic number is used in a Chevrolet ad that runs every 4-5 seconds. I know the song by heart now, and even if I liked it (which I don’t), I would still be sick of it. It panders to Toby Keith fans who think that driving a pick-up truck with an American flag plastered on the exterior makes you more patriotic than, say, everyone else on the planet. Freedom is trendy. If John Mellencamp needs anything right now, it’s a trend to latch onto. He hasn’t had a true hit in a decade. Remember his cover of “Wild Night” with that bald chick who kind of resembles Kareem Abdul Jabbar? No one else does either.

Mellencamp tried putting midgets in his music videos, but that didn’t work. By the way, what’s the correlation between John Mellencamp and midgets? He has had two depressing videos that featured midgets. They were supposed to be stark social commentaries on discrimination, but my only reaction to these works of art (I couldn’t type that with a straight face) was, “Wow, this is a depressing video. Look, midgets!” Baleful ditties about dwarfism don’t sell, so Mellencamp is going back to his all-American roots. Blue jeans, feelgood lyrics, generic pop/country hooks…he’s got a hit on his hands.

There’s also something on his face, what with all of the fellating he’s been doing at business meetings. Patriotism is only sincere when a corporation is profiting off of it. How could John Mellencamp be an American singer/songwriter without partnering up with Chevrolet? Toby Keith is a Ford whore. It should be interesting to see which patriotic prostitute sells more albums from here on out. Yep, this is our country.

I leave you with the profound lyrics of “Our Country.”

Well I can stand beside

Ideals I think are right

And I can stand beside

The idea to stand and fight

And I do believe

There’s a dream for everyone

This is our country

There’s room enough here

For science to live

And there’s room enough here

For religion to forgive

And try to understand

All the people of this land

This is our country

From the east coast

To the west coast (I just realized that this is a “gangsta rap” song)

Down the Dixie Highway

Back home

This is our country

That poverty could be

Just another ugly thing

And bigotry would be

Seen only as obscene

And the ones that run this land

Help the poor and common man (like John Mellencamp)

This is our country

The dream is still alive

Some day it will come true

And this country it belongs

To folks like me and you

So let the voice of freedom

Sing out through this land

This is our country

Now buy my new album, b***

Or I’ll move to (okay, I added that part)”

That was from some dude named Don Corrosco. I found it entertaining. Next to the article it has a picture of the singer with the caption “John Cougar Jacob Jingleheimer Mellencamp.” Now, off to the gym.

By MBATL

January 12, 2007 01:15 PM | Link to this

I don’t think Ripken hurt his team by playing every day. I do think he RISKED hurting his team by playing on sprained ankles, twisted knees, etc. But, he always played through it and never aggravated those injuries - a little luck has to be included in a streak like that.

From what I’ve read, he had a couple of bad slumps - a 4-for-55; that’s almost 10% of a season; would a day off at, say 3-for-30, have helped him snap out of it (and thus helped the team)? Who knows?

So while I admire the heck out of his accomplishment (and I think he did it for the right reason: “that’s what they pay me for”), I wouldn’t want players on my team striving for that kind of record because it pressures them to play and managers to play them when they probably shouldn’t.

By Jim

January 12, 2007 01:18 PM | Link to this

It is not a question of whether Langerhans/Diaz gives the the Braves a better chance of winning a particular game than Francouer, but whether resting Francouer for 5 -10 games allows Francouer to be a more rested (particularly mentally) and more productive player come Sept./Oct.

The same would be true of Ripken. Obviously there is no bench player that for a particular game that would be better than a Ripken at 80%. But even Ripken would have benefited from having a few days off every few months.

By The Grinch

January 12, 2007 01:19 PM | Link to this

Exuse me, that was Dom Coccaro, from AssociatedContent.com. Don’t want to misquote anyone. Later.

By David O'Brien

January 12, 2007 01:26 PM | Link to this

Shaun, agreed on the better-the-player, better-he’ll-age-thing, for the most part. Because the players who have the amazing gifts of skills _ hand-eye coordination, innate ability to break on the ball seemingly before it’s hit, freakish vision and/or depth perception (Andruw’s depth perception tests off the charts), and just those intangible baseball skills we all know when we see them _ do tend to play better into their 30s than the players whose games were more reliant upon raw power or speed or basic athleticism.

By Choppinmama

January 12, 2007 01:28 PM | Link to this

Robert(JusticeIB), I was flabbergasted (Rosalyn knows what I mean) by a comment I read the other day about the positive things Bonds was doing to show that he’s really a good guy. “He showed up for the team photo.”

How do the Giant fans put up with this guy?

Here’s a Braves knickname: Ray “Burger” King

By MBATL

January 12, 2007 01:37 PM | Link to this

HERE is one study on age/performance (based on OPS). There are some follow-up articles in the right-hand menu bar.

It’s not terribly interesting (to me) but does suggest that about 29 is peak, and that there’s little difference between great, good and mediocre players in terms of aging and performance stats.

I’m not vouching for the math, and would intuitively agree that better players peak later.

By BB FAN

January 12, 2007 01:43 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

Every study that I’ve seen has said the peak years normally start around 26-28 and end around 32-34. At the end of the peak years, you will normally see a slight decrease in production. Andruw Jones is a perfect example. So far, his two most productive years have been at 28 and 29. He had some great years before but not like 2005 and 2006. I would bet he’ll have approx the same productive years at 30, 31 and 32. Then he’ll probably start to decline. Some say his defense has already started declining, but I’m not so sure. He does have Langerhans and Francoeur around him now. So he does’t need to get to as many balls as he used to. But he still makes a ton of spectacular plays.

You have a point about who would take Ripken’s (or Andruw’s) spot. But like I said, It would be for 10 games throughout the year. I’m not saying a platoon. But if Ripken had rested ~10 games a year, I would bet his overall numbers would have been better. They were great anyway, but I think he could have had better numbers in those years that he struggled a little. WHen I say struggle, I mean compared to his previous years. Now of course, the team would have had to have a decent replacement. And because Cal was Cal, the Orioles probably didn’t feel they needed one. I’m not saying they were wrong in letting Ripken play everyday, I just think he could have been a little more productive when he played if he had rested a little more.

With Andruw, I think Langerhans playing center 10-12 games a year would be fine. He is a strong defensive player and I think it would benefit Jones because of the nagging injuries he has had over the last 3-4 years. However, it’s great to see a player that wants to play everyday.

Even though it’s just a game, playing all those games is not easy. You’re talking about 162 games on top of ~ 30 preseason games and then possibly playoff games.

By MBATL

January 12, 2007 01:44 PM | Link to this

Actually, there is one conclusion in there that “The results indicate that players of different quality age the same, except for the superstars (>120). While most other players peak at age 29, the superstars peak between 31 and 32.”

By Shaun

January 12, 2007 01:49 PM | Link to this

O’Brien,

Based on what I’ve heard and read (and what makes sense) players can make up for a failing skill with another skill. Andruw Jones appears to be making that transition right now—he’s not as fast as he used to be but he’s transferring himself from a athletic, fairly speedy type player to a player who relies more on power, instincts and discipline.

There’s also the Chipper Jones type player. Aside from speed and playing time, he’s been remarkably consistent because he’s just so good at so many of the most important aspects of offense—discipline, power, making solid contact.

By rammerjammer

January 12, 2007 01:51 PM | Link to this

Did anybody see that the Pirates made an ownership change today? More like a shuffling of chairs on the Titanic, but still, that could have an impact on things such as trades. New owners have a way of wanting to make an impact.

Also saw where Bruce Chen, free agent and former Brave, had a ridiculously good winter league season. He’s a lefty, only 29. Hmm…

By David O'Brien

January 12, 2007 01:56 PM | Link to this

Shaun, exactly the two Braves I had in mind, the Joneses.

By BB FAN

January 12, 2007 02:06 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

Maas was like 25 when he made it to the Yankees. I think it was 1990. That year, he hit well at AAA which is why he got called up. But before then, he was not that productive in the minors which is why he was not called up. The guy was not that good. He had the one great half season (~ 20 Hrs in about 250 at bats but only hit .250 if I remember correctly) in 1990 when nobody knew him.

In 1991, the Yanks let him play everyday and he hit like 22 Hrs in 500 at bats but only hit like .220 for average. He was never a full time player again. It was not because he was in decline, he just wasn’t that good to begin with. Don’t get me wrong, he obviously had skills but not the skills to last in the majors.

By Shaun

January 12, 2007 02:07 PM | Link to this

MBATL,

As much as I talk about OPS, it may not be all that telling to just look at OPS. OPS weighs SLG and OBP the same, but OBP is more important. And it would also be good to throw batting average in there and defense. And some other skills. But 29 is not far off where a lot of other studies. Most good players (players that stick in the majors) are probably going to be productive enough to play regularly from their mid 20’s to their early to mid 30’s.

By Shaun

January 12, 2007 02:14 PM | Link to this

While were on the subject, it’s weird that a lot of casual finds disrespect Chipper Jones in Atlanta. I don’t know if it’s the football mentality (if you aren’t a play maker every game, you aren’t any good) or what. But Chipper’s numbers are simply amazing and I don’t know how many fans I talk to that think Chipper is just okay.

By David O'Brien

January 12, 2007 02:22 PM | Link to this

Grinch, that was pretty funny. I was at that game, guess I didn’t notice how Mellencamp held up the proceedings, since they hold them up for commercials and announcements and anything else anyway.

Agreed, the snippet of that song obviously becomes annoying, like most any other jingle we see in the most often repeated commercials (and that one’s been in heavy rotation since it was made, it seems).

But the lyrics you printed out, the part about it being a country where science can live and religion can forgive, don’t seem like anything Toby Keith would write. I could be wrong, though.

And tell that dude to let me know when Toby writes something like this. Not that it’s Hank Sr. or Dylan, but the man can write a pretty good song that doesn’t insult your intelligence:

Well our hearts beat like thunder/I don’t know why they don’t explode

You got your hands in my back pockets/And Sam Cooke’s singin’ on the radio

You say that I’m the boy who can make it all come true/Well I’m tellin’ ya that I don’t know if I know what to do

Chorus: You say that’s all right,/hold tight

Well I don’t even know if I’m doin’ this right

Well all right,/hold tight

We can stay out all day or we can run around all night

Well all night,/all night

Well it’s time to go home/And I ain’t even done with the night

Well I don’t know no good come-ons/ And I don’t know no cool lines

I feel the heat of your frustration/I know it’s burnin you up deep down inside

You say that I’m the boy/ who can make it all come true

Well I’m tellin ya that I don’t know/ if I know what to do

By journalist jimmy smith

January 12, 2007 02:26 PM | Link to this

sad day. ralph the whale shark is dead. first, aaron giraffe, then gasper whale, now ralph shark. not baseball. not music. not pie. fish. red fish, blue fish, old fish, new fish all will mourn ralph. guest book is now open.

By Shaun

January 12, 2007 02:28 PM | Link to this

BB FAN,

Maas was actually impressive in the minors: .283 AVG/.372 OBP/.495 SLG career.

Before he was called up to the Yankees in 1990 he was hitting in the high .200 to .320 range with a OBP in the .390’s and a slugging percentage around .500.

He was done by age 25 because his skill set wasn’t conducive to favorable aging. He was slow and bad defensively—basically his only skills were decent power and decent plate discipline. He was at his best in his early 20’s.

The chapter on Maas in Baseball Between the Numbers looks at players with similar skill sets and most players like him decline faster than players with more of a variety of skills, as I’ve been saying.

By Rosalynn

January 12, 2007 02:29 PM | Link to this

I personalla liked Ralph Shark vera much and will miss seeing him at the aquarium.

By Scalp 'Em Braves

January 12, 2007 02:39 PM | Link to this

This talk about midgets, and JJS’s mention of pie, makes my mouth water for a midget pecan pie - the one’s at the Rippy Marts in an aluminum pan the size of a half dollar, with cellophane wrapping.

Forget work, forget song lyrics, forget arguments about peaking and drops in productivity. I’m off to buy….me a midget pie.

By Shaun

January 12, 2007 02:53 PM | Link to this

BB FAN,

The Yankees would have been better off calling up Maas earlier to get the most out of him. But a team isn’t going to call up a player after putting up impressive numbers in A ball. And he got a late jump because he went to college.

By BB FAN

January 12, 2007 03:40 PM | Link to this

I just looked up Mass’ numbers. In 1989 at AAA, Maas (age 24) hit .320 but only had 6 Hrs in 291 at bats and struck out 73 times. In 1988 at AA, Maas (age 23) hit just .263 with 103 strike outs in 372 at bats. In 1987 at A+, Maas (age 22) hit .278 with only 11 Hrs in 439 at bats and 108 strike outs. If the Yankees had called him up before 1990, he would have really sucked.

Those are not numbers that deserve a call up to the majors.

You said yourself, his skills were limited. That is my point. He was never good enough for the majors to begin with. He did not hit .220 in 1991 because he was in decline at age 26. It’s because he was not skilled enough for the majors. The league caught up with him.

He wasn’t even that good in 1990 (his first in the majors). Sure, he hit 21 HRs, but only had a .252 average in 254 at bats and struck out 76 times. 1990 was his best year in the majors…due to the fact that pitchers did not know him.

By Shaun

January 12, 2007 04:03 PM | Link to this

BB FAN,

Well, Maas put up extremely excellent on-base percentages (same as low out percentages) too, .405 in 1989. Strikeouts are bad, but they are only bad because they are outs. They really aren’t any worse than other outs (I know I’m opening up a can of worms there). So he made up for his strikeouts, which were most of his outs, with his overall out-avoiding/on-base abilities, which were excellent.

Also, he his only 6 HR in 83 games in 1989 but hit 23 doubles and 2 triples. And the year before he hit 28 homers in A and AA. The year after he hit 13 HR in only 57 AAA games. So he had power. That was probably just an adjustment year.

But, in a sense, you are right. Maas didn’t have the skills to have staying power in the Bigs. But he probably could have been a fairly productive player had he been called up a little earlier.

By Lew

January 12, 2007 04:12 PM | Link to this

Anyone who thinks Andruw is appreciably slower than he used to be, you need to watch him go from first to third or second to home. He still moves real well. He can still go get it in center, also. It’s from home to first where he’s slow. I think that is more a result of his ankle breaking swing rather than getting old.

By Kentavo

January 12, 2007 04:33 PM | Link to this

kevn kinney is the bob dylan of georgia and he once told me dnc is the “led zepplin of the south”

By JC FROM UT

January 12, 2007 04:46 PM | Link to this

According to the Pittsburgh paper, the Pirates are now looking to aquire Chad Tracey from Arizona for Mike Gonzales. Personally, I think this is bad for the Braves because I think Gonzales makes the team better both now and in the future. Hopefully Wickman wont decide to retire after the season and JS is stuck looking for the next closer.

By TennesseePaul

January 12, 2007 04:49 PM | Link to this

Anyone else see this? I don’t know if it’s been discussed yet. I guess the Met fans are just full of glee about this. They should be showing up any moment to brag about the potential signing.

The Nationals would like to add more pitching at a cheap price, and that means they are out of the running to sign right-handers Tony Armas Jr., Tomo Ohka, Ramon Ortiz, Jorge Sosa or Steve Trachsel. In fact, according to a baseball source, Sosa is set to sign with the Mets.

…Minaya is not just getting players for the sake of it. He is actu[a]lly putting pieces together…

The rest of the division is much a feared.

By TennesseePaul

January 12, 2007 04:58 PM | Link to this

Strikeouts are bad, but they are only bad because they are outs

Payne: That is a can of worms. IN the order of bad outs, it goes Merkle Boner, Triple Play, Double Play, Strikeout. Putting the ball in play is always the better way to go if you have to decide between a K or no K. All that 1-run game luck comes into play once the ball is in play.
And a guy striking out 100+ in 300+ minor league at bats is terrible. We watched a lot of minor league pitching last year, Major Leaguers eat it up. Maas was swinging and missing at sub par pitching. He was destined to fail in the pros no matter when he was called up.

By rainman

January 12, 2007 04:58 PM | Link to this

One thing i would like to see added to is the bench. One thing for sure is we cant carry woodward, orr,aybar,prado,and jonhson.

By The Grinch

January 12, 2007 05:20 PM | Link to this

Scalp ‘em, they sell midget pies in Alabama? Boy, that IS a backward state; I would think that would be illegal. Not to mention not very tasty (at least with pecans), but you’re the sandwich king so I suppose you know best.

Dave, I agree Mellencamp seems to have better songwriting skills than Keith, I just think past a certain amount of rotation it doesn’t much matter.

I would say hooray what a day for the Mets signing Sosa (wouldn’t that be hilarious if they were forced to use him against us in a game that mattered? Can’t wait for Mets fans to start displaying the “Sosa face.”), but Jimmy Smith is right. The passing of Ralph Shark is depressing. I saw him twice in person; he was a cool shark though I was unable to get an autograph. I blame that on aquarium policy more than I do Ralph, however.

By David O'Brien

January 12, 2007 05:33 PM | Link to this

JC from Utah, Rafael Soriano has the stuff to be a damn fine closer, long as he’s healthy, and no reason to believe he won’t be (after his initial struggles in first couple of weeks of winter ball, he pitched much better and says the post-concussion stuff has dissipated).

Anyway, folks, NEW BLOG IS POSTED. Damn rankings of all 30 stadiums took about three times longer than I thought, but it’s there. Please be gentle.