AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2006 > December > 11 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USBraves face Tuesday deadline
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
While the rumor-an-hour mill continues grinding, the Braves face a very real decision Tuesday that’s probably already been made and may well offend a significant segment of their fan base.
Marcus Giles fans, of which there are plenty, have a difficult time understanding why the Braves might actually non-tender the plucky second baseman. Tuesday is the deadline for teams to tender contracts to arbitration-eligible players or make them free agents eligible to sign with any team. (Take poll at bottom.)
If they non-tender Giles, a 2003 All-Star whose production has since slipped steadily, the Braves will get nothing in the way of compensation from any team that signs him. And folks, barring a late trade, it does appear the Braves are going to non-tender him.
They’ll also probably non-tender reliever Chris Reitsma, with only first baseman Adam LaRoche and right-hander Oscar Villarreal likely to tendered among aribitration-eligibles. They could always re-sign Reitsma to lesser contract as he makes his comeback from elbow surgery, but a change of scenery might be appealing for a guy who’s not been well-received by some Braves fans (to say the least).
Before I go any further about Giles, let me relate a conversation I had with an American League scout this afternoon, one who is both quite familiar with Tampa Bay’s needs, and one who was just in the Dominican scouting winter ball.
First, he told me the Devil Rays would do the Rocco Baldelli-to-Braves deal in a heartbeat for shortstop Yunel Escobar and a certain starting pitcher. But that pitcher ain’t Kyle Davies. It’s Chuck James. They’re drooling over him.
But I don’t see the Braves giving up James, and don’t think they should, for what it’s worth (again, Braves haven’t asked my opinion on this matter, but I’m ready by the phone should they call).
The D-Rays love James’ major league track record - it’s less than one season, but impressive - and believe Davies’ health is too much a question mark. But they do like Escobar a lot and would like him to be their future shortstop.
They could use catching prospect Jarrod Saltalamacchia - also being discussed in a potential deal for Baldelli - to flip for a starting pitcher, but again that’s not as definite as getting one in hand. Anyway, this scout seemed to believe the team that gets Baldelli will have to give up a good starter.
OK, about the Dominican winter league. This guy was just there and saw a relief pitcher who he’s seen thrown 95-96 mph in the past top out at only 91 mph in the D.R.
He said the guy looked like he was searching, like he had no answers. He felt bad for him, the scout said. And he also said another scout saw this pitcher make a start the week before and not get out of the first inning.
Now, I don’t know if maybe these two guys each saw Rafael Soriano on a bad day, but it would at least explain a little bit why Seattle was willing to trade him to the Braves for injury-plagued lefty Horacio Ramirez.
As this scout told me, Soriano is “the best” setup man in baseball when he’s healthy, but the guy told me other scouts were theorizing that he hasn’t bounced back from being drilled by the Vladimir Guerrero line drive on Aug. 29.
Soriano had headaches and dizziness in September, which is why the Mariners didn’t pitch him again in the regular season after that frightful incident, which left him with a concussion and one night in intensive care.
The Braves obviously scouted Soriano in the D.R. this winter, and John Schuerholz said their reports were solid. So I have nothing to go on except what the Braves said and this other scout told me.
My bet is that Soriano is just getting his legs back under him and still shaking out the cobwebs from a horrifying incident. I certainly would have made the deal, if I were the Braves and was satisfied with what I saw in the D.R.
There’s no reason the beaning would affect his arm, obviously. So there’s no reason to think he won’t be back to what he was last season before the incident (he had bounced back from a July DL stint for a sore shoulder and was throwing with his usual effectiveness before getting drilled by Vlad).
But it does at least offer another side, or reason, to why the Mariners would be so desparate for a starter that they’d trade one of baseball’s best relievers for a lefty starter who hasn’t had a healthy season since 2003.
OK, on to Giles. The Braves weren’t able to complete a trade at last week’s winter meetings, where interest in Giles alone was tepid, at best. The Braves would’ve had to package him with another player to get a significant return, which is why they were willing to include him with Adam LaRoche in a proposal for Baltimore 2B Brian Roberts and pitching prospect Hayden Penn.
That deal was agreed upon and ready to be finalized before Orioles owner Peter Angelos killed it. Angelos didn’t want to give up Roberts, his team’s most popular player, even though the O’s would have “won” the trade in the eyes of most observers, since LaRoche is the best player in that deal, period.
Though Giles’ stats are comparable to Roberts’ numbers, there are less concerns about Roberts and the O’s believe his peak years are ahead of him. The same can’t be said for Giles, in the view of most.
A trade for Giles before Tuesday seems highly unlikely, because any interest team could wait to see if he’s non-tendered, them probably sign Giles for less than $6 mill - maybe a LOT less - and without giving up anything in a trade.
If the Braves non-tender him, it will be a financial decision based on Giles’ declined production and rising salary, which would be close to $6 million if the Braves tender him a contract. He’s a fifth-year arbitration-eligible player who’ll be eligible for free agency after the 2007 season.
While the Braves don’t have a candidate they’re certain can step in and fill the void with solid defense and offense in 2007, they seem willing to go with what they have - Martin Prado? Kelly Johnson? - or try to sign someone cheap this spring if it’s clear neither of them is ready.
As they showed in the Tom Glavine failed “negotiations,” the Braves aren’t willing to extend themselves beyond their payroll limit, even if they don’t actually start paying salaries until the spring. In other words, much as some outside the organization - i.e., fans - won’t understand why they can’t be over $80 million now and just assume they can get it straightened out before they start writing the checks, the Braves won’t do it.
They lost Glavine - they insist they wanted him - because they wouldn’t even tell him informally, “Hey, Tom, we can pay you $7 mill (or whatever) if we’re able to trade this guy and that guy to free up payroll.” They wouldn’t tell him any figure, and John Schuerholz told me they simply couldn’t engage in negotiations until they had the payroll cleared.
So they’re not going to do it with Giles, if they’ve decided that his salary must go (and I don’t know that they have, but that’s the general feeling I get from talking to people on the periphery of this matter).
Listen, much as a lot of folks love Giles’ scrappy style, the fact of the matter is that he’s gone from being one of the three or four most productive offensive second baseman in the majors to being closer to the middle, plagued by injuries and declining power at an age (28) when he should be in his prime.
Giles hit .316 with 49 doubles, 21 homers and a whopping .916 OPS … in 2003.
Yes, four seasons ago.
His average has slipped each year since, to .311, .291 and last season’s .262, which matched his career-low set in his 2001 rookie year.
His OPS has slipped from .916 to .821, .826, and last year’s .728.
His slugging percentage has dropped from .526 in 2003 to .443, .461, and last year’s career-worst .387, 43 points below his rookie slugging percentage.
His on-base percentage has slipped from .390 in 2003 to .378, .365, and last year’s .341.
He was never a big stolen-base guy, but even that’s dropped from 17 in 21 attempts in 2004, to 16 in 19 attempts in 2005, to last year 10 steals in 15 attempts.
And after striking out 80 times in 2003 and 70 times in 2004, he’s whiffed 108 and 105 times in the past two seasons.
If the Braves weren’t strapped for cash, perhaps they’d be willing to gamble that a healthy Giles could rebound and have a stellar year. Maybe. But they are strapped for cash.
Comments
By bruce
December 11, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this
Dave, Would it be too much of an insult for the Braves to offer Marcus a much smaller contract on Wednesday after they non-tender him to see if he would have a great year then get a better contract from another team for the following year?
If he could bat somewhere other than leadoff and heal his many injuries over the winter then maybe he could return to his former capability?
I like him and wish him the best where-ever he plays.
By Charles
December 11, 2006 04:23 PM | Link to this
By non tendering Giles, he becomes a free agent. Is he not available to the Braves as a free agent at that time or is there are waiting period? I thought I read that somewhere. And when is the acutal time deadline for non tendering contracts (i.e. midnight, 4:00pm)?
By dfree
December 11, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this
any chance he’d sign back for less than 6 mil?
By JamesP
December 11, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this
This is what San Diego is waiting on. Getting Giles after Tuesday.
By Mike
December 11, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this
just wondering if we non tender Giles could we still sign him for cheap or can he not sign with us until May 1 like Clemens last year?
By rainman
December 11, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this
Anyone have info other than stats on these guys.
Dan smith, Zach Schreiber, and Matt wright,
Info such as what their best pitch is and speed on their fastball.
By JamesP
December 11, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this
GM’s are like poker players. Got to bluff here and there.The Braves could sign Giles then trade to San Diego or possibaly work on a contract on anther Braves player to get there salery rework as they did to Chipper in the past.
By Chrizzo
December 11, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this
Hey DOB, once again, thanks so much for being so devoted to this blog. The following is an article from a newspaper up north, is there any truth that the LaRoche/Gonzo trade might still be on again, or at least do you see the two teams starting talks up again? This is the clip of the Braves mention from the article:
“Meanwhile, indications are that the Pirates’ attempts to trade for Atlanta Braves first baseman Adam LaRoche may not yet be over, though a deal fell apart last Wednesday. There were tensions between the two teams with the accusation by the Braves that Pirates General Manager Dave Littlefield drug his feet on completing a deal. However sources close to the negotiations expect both sides to try to resurrect talks once cooler heads prevail and believe the potential is still there for a multi-player deal, including a possibility in which the Pirates would send left-handed closer Mike Gonzalez, catcher Humberto Cota, second baseman Jose Castillo and outfielder Nate McLouth to the Braves for right-hander Kyle Davies and LaRoche.”
Link:
http://www.timesonline.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=17576515&BRD=2305&PAG=46
By rammerjammer
December 11, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this
DOB, great info…as always.
I don’t sense any open weeping among Braves players over Giles’ imminent departure. Fans, yes. Not players.
Couldn’t help but notice your praises for Renteria’s attitude, professionalism, clubhouse demeanor, etc., and then your ominous silence that followed.
Sometimes it’s hard to read between the lines, but not in this instance. Hey, if I’m way out of line, just tell me.
By 22oz
December 11, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this
i’ll say it again: Giles isn’t going anywhere. he’s on the main page at atlantabraves.com, right there with chipper, andruw, huddy and smoltz. thats as good as gold.
By Chrizzo
December 11, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this
DOB, okay, so I tried the link and it doesn’t work. If you go to that papers site, you will be able to find it. Just wanted to clear that up because it is a legit article.
Let us know if you know of anything that might be going on.
By Billy (TBFnB)
December 11, 2006 04:46 PM | Link to this
Good stuff DOB…if they are drooling over him why not try and exploit that….I mean we all love C. James but if we can get a kings ransom why not?
Wow, puts a someone dark cloud over our actions thus far this winter. Only move(s) made was the RP with the funny last name and a trade for a relief pithcer who still mabey shell shocked. Hopefully Hampton can provide a big boost becasue it appears we are gambling on our bullpen again this year.
By michael
December 11, 2006 04:46 PM | Link to this
Before anyone blames JS for not trading Giles,then non-tendering him,(that sounds odd),then losing him completely with no compensation,please remember this is TimeWarner’s fault.(again) JS is good, but can you imagine trying to work deals when everyone and their brother knows the cards you’re holding? What a horrible position for a GM to be in! If this trend keeps up, we may as well put the team back in the baby-blues and be done with it. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. 15 years of winning ain’t bad.
By BB FAN
December 11, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this
Giles would probably benefit greatly from re-signing with the Braves for one year at 1 million with the understanding that he does not bat leadoff. He would then be in Atlanta, where he is comfortable. He could then work on having a rebound year and cash in as a free agent after 2007 season.
Of course, I bet that San Diego offers him much more money than the Braves would be able to. With his brother there, he likely would just leave now and hope for a rebound season in SD.
By braveheart
December 11, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this
i understand the braves position on declining production from giles, payroll realities, and the fact that they would be forced to pay him more than he is worth if they tender Giles. BUT this is very frustrating nevertheless. This is not a small market. It is not the fault of the GM. He is being handcuffed by these corporate cheapskates. I do not want them to go out there and sign every Tom, Dick, and Harry on the free agent market (especially this year where there really are not any quality free agents out there and everyone is spending like a bunch of fools for guys who are average at best). BUT I do want them to be able to retain their own stars. If the team is going to be predicated upon homegrown dudes, then we need to be able to retain those guys when we can. Very frustrating.
As always, DOB: Great article/blog. You always keep us informed, are opinionated, but also fair and objective in exploring all issues. I really appreciate it. It does make it hard for me to blog more often though. You just make too much sense for me to pick a fight with. Why can’t you just be more simple-minded and biased so that I can fight with you?
By ncscoots
December 11, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this
I’d be shocked if that Pitt deal, as stated, went through. Cota and McLouth add little to the deal, and Castillo is certainly no prize, so you’d be giving up starting pitching AND offense for a reliever. Even as much as I like Gonzalez, THAT deal is robbery of the first magnitude, IMO.
By Jim
December 11, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this
Are the D-Rays likely to get a pitcher comparable to James from anybody else? (low salary, and high potential with a major league resume) These are not the kind of pitchers that teams are likely to give up for even a good position player. Are the Braves likely to substitute another pitcher (Harrison, Reyes) for Davies, and if so would the D-Rays do that deal? Would the Braves?
By flange1
December 11, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this
RAMMERJAMMER,
I think you nailed it!! Bobby Cox says he wants him back, but publicly he wants everyone back.
Bummer to hear about Soriano. Hopefully he is just tuning up.
I don’t think we can give up James. He has too much upside right now. I would prefer to try some sort of three way like DOB suggested to use Salty to get another pitcher for TB. Maybe we just don’t match up…
If we get back into discussions with the Pirates, they have to give up a young pitcher. Does anyone want Cota?? I would give up Laroach only if we got back quality. Wither Gonzales or one of their young starters + a prospect.
By geauxbraves2000
December 11, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this
Even if Soriano is having a rough time I still think the Braves made a good trade. I wish HoRam the best, and I hope he has a good/healthy season.
As far as LaRoche/Giles for Penn/Roberts, I owe Mr Angelos (for you Seinfeld fans) a dinner an Mindy’s (and yes, soup does count). I can’t believe the Braves would even consider that deal, that is proposterous. Thank you Mr. A.
I would like to see Baldelli in a Braves uni, but the Braves ML starting pitching lacks quality depth, so the only way, IMO, to get a stater to TB is to do a three way trade.
Just my opinion.
Geaux Braves!!
By Billy (TBFnB)
December 11, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this
WARNING FANTASY TRADE
Would anyone here trade Yunel Escobar and C. James for C. Crawford….
Stoking the C. Crawford discussion…as much as I hate it…the possiblity may exsisit if they love both player as much as DOB says.
I would not make hte trade as I think C. Crawford is overrated by everyone.
By David O'Brien
December 11, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this
Mike, the May 1 rule no longer in effect, and that was for teams offering arbitration to their own free agents, anyway. Different scenario.
Braves can negotiate with him like any other team after he becomes a free agent.
By mariner
December 11, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this
The info below is from the newspaper link someone provide above. The situation seems identical to Giles, so it answers a few of the questions above. Giles and Chacon have the same major league service time. Giles made 3.85 mil last year, so if this article is correct, he could be tendered a contract for about $3.08 mil.
“Right-hander Shawn Chacon will almost certainly not be tendered because major-league rules allow clubs to cut players’ salaries by no more than 20 percent if offered arbitration, meaning the Pirates would have to offer him a minimum of $2.88 million after he made $3.6 million last season. Instead, the Pirates would like to non-tender Chacon then re-sign him to a one-year contract for around $2 million as a free agent.”
By Scalp 'Em Braves
December 11, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this
DOB - thanks for the new blog. I was getting tired of scrolling through 688 posts to find out the latest posts.
I hear what the numbers say. Can’t really argue with those. But, numbers aren’t everything, and my gut and heart say Giles is a keeper, if it can be done - realize it isn’t likely. I think anybody they bring up to play 2B next year is going to struggle and be less productive than Marcus was last year - but perhaps not as injury prone.
It’s a tough bidness, this baseball. Glad I don’t make my living doing it - I’d probably eat a truckload of Rolaids a day.
By Serge
December 11, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this
Selective stats. When you look at his stats, and compare them to league averages you realize that hes still been a very good player compared to other seccond basemen and is worth the 4-5m he would get in arbi. But whatever. The Braves would rather spend the league minimum on a much more mediocre player. We have a saying.. “you get what you pay for” and unquesitonably we will get mediocreness from Martin Prado for the league minimum yay! Hell why dont we bring Keith Lockhart or Nick Green back too?
The Economics of Baseball stink indeed.
By David O'Brien
December 11, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this
Chrizzo, I addressed the latest Pittsburgh rumor just before you asked me about it on the other blog. Go back and read the chain of posts, please. I don’t want to keep repeating it.
By David O'Brien
December 11, 2006 05:05 PM | Link to this
Chrizzo, through the magic of cut-and-paste, here’s my reply to the first person who brought up that illogical Pirates rumor:
I don’t think the trade rumor has much validity to it, if any. Can’t see them trading LaRoche AND Davies and not getting a starting pithcer OR impact position player in the deal. Just can’t see it.
Also not going to make phone calls to sources for EVERY rumor out there, because they’ll quickly stop taking my calls.
By Chrizzo
December 11, 2006 05:06 PM | Link to this
Sorry for the double post DOB. Thanks for the reply.
By Jim
December 11, 2006 05:07 PM | Link to this
What is Crawford’s salary? When is he elligible for free agency? If the Braves are still cash strapped then, we would be only renting a player at the expense of our top prospect and our best young pitcher. If we are trying to build a base starting with pitching, we can not trade away James! Who’s left? 40-year old John Smoltz, injured and expensive Mike Hampton, expensive and ineffective Tim Hudson, and TBA (pick two Villareal, Cormier, Davies, ?)
By JC FROM UT
December 11, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this
How about this trade: LaRoach,Giles,Davies and Devine to Pittsburgh for Mike Gonzales and Ian Snell and Jose Castillo?
By Billy (TBFnB)
December 11, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this
My WIFI sucks can someone copy and paste his response to the Pirates rumor on this blog, thanks?
By Peter
December 11, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this
Trade NO MORE YOUNG PITCHING especially for a guy you’re not going to be able to resign in a few years anyway.
If the payroll is going to remain like this (maybe for several seasons) then we need to start moving vets (too late for Andruw) for young guys.
I don’t think our staff is solid enough to really compete for a championship.
The spending this offseason is nuts. Gil Meche five years, FIVE YEARS??? It makes you wonder if we’ll be able to keep a Francouer and McCann in the future.
Hey check out the Wreckers’ CD.
By David O'Brien
December 11, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this
Serge, your post is a classic case of being blinded by loyalty or affection for a player. You write:
“Selective stats. When you look at his stats, and compare them to league averages you realize that hes still been a very good player compared to other seccond basemen and is worth the 4-5m he would get in arbi.”
SELECTIVE STATS?? I went through one by one, batting average, on-base percentage, slugging percentage, OPS, steals, strikeouts … my goodness, dude. Which did I leave out? Upon what would you base an evaluation of his performance and production? Triples? Geez, that’s pretty silly, to call the stats I used “selective.” I went through year-by-year since his all-star season, a four-year span of every major stat. Call it what you want.
And how did “close to $6 mill” in arbitration become $4-5 mill with you? Do you know something I don’t about his projected arbitration salary?
By Peter
December 11, 2006 05:12 PM | Link to this
One more thing David. Buster had on his blog last week that Hampton had approached the Braves about re-doing his contract to accomodate Glavine but that they never got back to him. Heard anything like that?
By Lew
December 11, 2006 05:17 PM | Link to this
It has been an interesting afternoon driving around cold, dreary New England, doing Christmas shopping. I’ve listened to XM Home Plate and the Baldelli deal was discussed ad naseum. They will take James and Salty, but aren’t much interested in Davies and Escobar was not mentioned. According to the Rays’ beat writer (DOB’s counterpart), there is a 33% chance of Baldelli being traded and only 10% that he goes to the Braves. Crawford is NOT BEING SHOPPED for less than Dontrelle or another top line starter. They feel if he were on the open market, he would command Carlos Lee money. No word on any deals with the Piratews. Rainman-According to the latest issue of Chop Talk, which has a comprehensive overview of the Braves’ farm system, they list the top 17 pitching prospects. Dan Smith is #13. This is what they say of him “Atlanta bullpen prospect has improved fastball every season in minors, needs more consistency with his breaking stuff.” Zach Schreiber and Matt Wright are not listed at all among the top 17. Sorry, Dude.
By David O'Brien
December 11, 2006 05:19 PM | Link to this
Serge, here’s a ‘selective’ stat. You want to compare him to his position? How’s this: Last season the Braves had four guys rank among the NL’s top-five OPS performers at four of nine positions.
Here’s the rankings by position _ Catcher: 1. McCann (.967); 1B: 5. LaRoche .927; 3B: 2. Chipper Jones (.998); CF: 2. Andruw Jones (.895). And one other was ranked sixth at his position, SS Edgar Renteria (.799).
At second base, Giles’ .728 wasn’t in the top 10 in the NL. The top 10 weere Ray Durham (.904), Chase Utley (.900), Jose Valentin (.867), Jeff Kent (.847), Dan Uggla (.819), Jamey Carroll (.816), Orlando Hudson (.812), Jose Vidro (.752), Rickie Weeks (.751) and Brandon Phillips (.738).
That’s 10 second baseman from 10 other NL teams with higher (OPS) on base-plus-slugging percentage) than Giles. Or is that selective, too?
By David O'Brien
December 11, 2006 05:20 PM | Link to this
Also, Matt Diaz was 10th among National League LFs in OPS, just for those who might be curious.
By David O'Brien
December 11, 2006 05:26 PM | Link to this
Peter, it was Gammons who had that about Hampton, not Buster. And while I hadn’t heard it, I wouldn’t doubt it happened. Point is, Braves can’t defer more money into the future with team up for sale. Chipper’s reworked deal actually saved the Braves a lot of money on the amount he would’ve made if his option years had vested (he’ll make $11 mill next season, would’ve been $15 mill option, and it would’ve vested even with all his injuries last season, to give you some idea how easy the 450 plate-appearance trigger was to reach).
Hampton’s remaining two years are guaranteed already, not opion years. So it would’ve been just a matter of deferring, not really saving the club money. And I have no idea if he would’ve wanted interest or whatever. At this point, it’s pretty irrelevent. They weren’t interested in doing it, probably because deferring, like I said, isn’t really something you do with a team for sale, not without checking to make sure it’s cool with the prospecive buyers, since you’re adding debt to the back end, etc.
By TN-MAN
December 11, 2006 05:27 PM | Link to this
DOB- is the nontender deadline at midnight tonight or tomorrow night? Do you see the Braves picking up any players that may be notendered?
By The Godfather
December 11, 2006 05:28 PM | Link to this
DOB, do you see any chance of the Braves signing Giles if they non tender him?
By dannycardwell
December 11, 2006 05:28 PM | Link to this
laroche needs to stay at least one more year. i remember 95% of everybody on these blogs were ready to ship him out 2 years ago. he is in the top 3 in baseball at what he does, hitting and fielding. his value will only increase next year. all we need is 2 more arms in the bull pen and a starter and were set. if we had wickman all year last season we would have made the playoffs. the hitting has always been there. nobodys going to miss giles any more than we missed furcal. pitching will always over shadow hitting. im ready for spring. at least when we watch the braves play we have a 50% chance of winning a home game.
By Lew
December 11, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this
Matt Harrison, JoJO Reyes and Chuck James should be totally untouchable. That is 3/5 of our starting rotation in the next several years.
By MizzouGuru
December 11, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this
DOB: I really think the Braves don’t need to make a trade. They’ve already made the one they needed to make. As a potential supersub, I would think Aybar could start a lot at second base and move to third if Chipper goes down. I see no reason to play an inferior player like Prado more than Aybar. Chone Figgins is referred to as a supersub but he had more than 600 ABs last year I believe. Aybar could also lead off.
By glorydays
December 11, 2006 05:32 PM | Link to this
Is our ownership really committing to putting a championship team on the field, is who we trade, release and keep of any real importance to them. Based on recent investor statments I get the impression it is not important. Why is MLB approving this transaction?
By braveheart
December 11, 2006 05:33 PM | Link to this
You are killing Serge, DOB. I am loving it. Looks like Serge is bringing a knife to a gunfight with DOB. We are going to start calling you Dave Eastwood if you don’t lay off selective Serge.
By TennesseePaul
December 11, 2006 05:34 PM | Link to this
Could be Giles is going to be resigned for less than 6 million. And he might just take it. His family is in Atlanta already. I’d imagine any contract offered from the Braves would be 1 year with an option. Maybe if the Padres offer a multi year deal, but even then Giles would stand to make more going with a 1 year deal heading into next year’s free agency. I haven’t scoped out next years FA 2B, but after the glut that was this years, I’d imagine its fairly thin. One solid season from Giles could reap him more than 6 million over several years. Add into that a winter meeting walk through and you got your self some coin.
But with the depth we have at that position, keeping Giles at 6+ million isn’t wise spending.
Trading Chuck James would be a horrid idea. That is unless Chuck has had some secret career ending medical issue that will only be discovered after the trade is completed. Then it’d be worth it… for the Braves anyway. I’d rather have a healthy dominating Chuck James.
I’m Chuck James B!tch!
GO BRAVES
By dougp
December 11, 2006 05:36 PM | Link to this
If we can’t afford Giles (the fan favorite), then they sure can’t afford Crawford. The main reason to want Baldelli is that he is Affordable. I hate it too, but quit bringing up Crawford.
DOB, lots of people talking about great concerts in last blog. I saw Clapton, Stevie Ray and Robert Cray in Wisconsin. Incredible concert, for Claptons last sets stevie ray and robert cray came out to join clapton, and buddy guy and jimmie vaughn flew up from chicago for a few songs. woke up the next morning and found out a legend had died. they say his helicopter crashed into a mountain in the fog. Being a life long cheesehead, all i can say is we don’t have any mountains and i don’t remember any fog on the way home. although i wasn’t driving.
Maybe we can have a telethon for Giles and kind of raise the money ourselves to keep him.
By Richard in Goose Creek
December 11, 2006 05:44 PM | Link to this
Are we so poor now that we will lose players to the Padres simply because they can wait to sign someone like Marcus after he is non-tendered instead of trading for him? Has it really come to this? If so, why not totally rebuild instead of fooling ourselves into thinking we will contend?
I think I am gonna hurl…
By james
December 11, 2006 05:45 PM | Link to this
the new laroche and davies for gonzalez, castillo, and some players that are going to be no tendered is absurd. end of story!
By glorydays
December 11, 2006 05:46 PM | Link to this
Have there been any PUBLISHED studies correlating team profitability by winning percentage, because if it a real high correlation the Braves are going to suck very soon.
By Billy (TBFnB)
December 11, 2006 05:47 PM | Link to this
glorydays,
No they are not. The CEO and other executives in charge of managing cost are concerned about the company’s bottom line…and rightfully so.
Unfortunately, a baseball teams purpose to exist is not to win championships, but to make money. There are several ways to do this and only one of them includes fielding a championship caliber team. I have to remind my self of this from time to time. While it’s nice to have the deep pocket owner who see the team as a toy rather than an owner who see the team as an asset the simple fact remains it’s a business. And in a business decisions have to be made to manage cost. And regrettably you have to make sacrifices. Such as the one we are likely going to have to make next winter with Andruw Jones. Fans get stirred up about Giles’ their really going to get worked up when AJ walks. Long live Ted Turner, despite his political shortfalls.
By Don
December 11, 2006 05:56 PM | Link to this
DOB Okay, I’m jumping to conclusions but you wrote it so I’m taking it as a concern, but if Soriano is damaged goods and performs accordingly, aren’t we back to square one (no set up man and still an average to poor remaining bull pen)?
Wasn’t it Schuerholz’s somewhat mandate to make the pen a dominant one again? It seems like this mandate may not come to reality.
By athens rotgut
December 11, 2006 06:04 PM | Link to this
I never wanted to do the Baldelli trade to start with BUT..
2008 Braves Outfielders Diaz, Baldelli, Francoeur could possibly be the most productive (offensively and defensively) and CHEAPEST combo in MLB
DOB-i do want to hear more about this.
By Peter
December 11, 2006 05:12 PM | Link to this
One more thing David. Buster had on his blog last week that Hampton had approached the Braves about re-doing his contract to accomodate Glavine but that they never got back to him. Heard anything like that?
If it is true then i understand hes not going to be willing to do it for everybody and all that But i was curious as to how many big leaguers that make a significant amount of money are actually willing to renegotiate their deals to help out the team. Other than Chipper of course. Chippers a good man.
By Billy (TBFnB)
December 11, 2006 06:10 PM | Link to this
athens rotgut,
Someone answered that and I think it was DOB. Anyways, who ever said it made the folloiwng point:
It would not make since to defer the amount of money it would take as it would put a strain on the team in upcomming years as well. Which puts us in the same boat we are in today with Hamptons contract. In other words we dont really need an excess of “dead money”.
By TennesseePaul
December 11, 2006 06:17 PM | Link to this
why not totally rebuild instead of fooling ourselves into thinking we will contend?
Rebuild? What’s to rebuild? I keep seeing that posted over the last year. The Braves have a few vets but mostly arbi eligible or less players. How much younger could we possibly get? And, if we did, we wouldn’t be competitive ever. You can’t rebuild entirely with youth. I know the Marlins story from last year. Here’s an angle to think about, the Marlins had a ton of rookies, low expectations and managed to end the season with a losing record, second to last. They didn’t win anything. And it’ll be years before they can with the way the Mets spend and Phillies, if they ever learn to spend wisely. The Marlins looked mighty because the Braves stunk last season. The NL was lack lustor as a whole. It’s the same thing as the FA market. Career 4.00 ERA pitchers with only 2 15+ win seasons to their name get 16+ million a season. Doesn’t mean that’s a great pitcher.
We might as well make a run at it every year. Keep some vets sprinkle some rookies in there and see what happens. It worked for 15 years, no reason it should stop working now. I know, mid to late 90’s payroll was top of the bar, but I don’t remember it being at the top in 1991. It’s doable. And I wanna see it happen. It’s more rewarding to watch a team win built like the Braves are now, than to watch a team win by buying every free agent out there.
The Parity of WS victors of late seems to have diluted fan expectations. It is a goal to win the WS, yes. But it’s a bigger and better goal to win the WS 3 times in a row or more. To have what was known as a dynasty is the ultimate goal. Can’t get that unless you develop and build like the Braves do, or like the Yankees did in the late 90’s.
GO BRAVES
By Ken Stallings
December 11, 2006 06:32 PM | Link to this
Time Warner is killing this team, and frankly don’t give a damn! It’s really sad. One of the best teams in MLB and a corporate ownership group is killing it.
There is no doubt in my mind that Schuerholz is handcuffed by a stern prohibition against exceeding salary cap, even on paper. Such inflexibility indicates that Time Warner cares nothing about this team.
If we had a baseball commissioner worth a damn he’d step in and give Time Warner an ultimatum to close the deal with Liberty or immediately open negotiations with other interested parties.
Ken
By Nick Esasky
December 11, 2006 06:40 PM | Link to this
Soriano will be fine.
By Len Barker
December 11, 2006 06:42 PM | Link to this
Go ahead with Baldelli. What’s the worst that could happen.
By Drummerdad
December 11, 2006 06:48 PM | Link to this
Villareal + Cormier = Millwood. Just throw Estrada inbetween so the progression flows right. If we could come up with a trade for Marcus and get a minor leaguer near the quality of Estrada I’d be happy. The Millwood trade was desperation to get something and it worked. Seems like they’re having a hard time doing that with Marcus. Schuerholz’s comment back then was that the economics of the game were all screwed up. Yeah, no kidding. Especially when you got no money to work with. Goodness John Schuerholz must have an incredibly thick hide. Dealing with this stuff would drive most of us nuts.
By TJ
December 11, 2006 06:55 PM | Link to this
There’s no way we can give up James at this point, so if that’s what Tampa has to have, then we need to just put Baldelli out of our minds. I don’t have a problem with the roster as it now stands. The Braves need to focus on developing their young players, and we fans need to focus on rooting for them. Enjoy it as it unfolds. That’s where I think the fun of all this is anyway.
By akirell
December 11, 2006 07:00 PM | Link to this
Are the Braves taking any donations specifically for their player payroll? Haha
By Rex the Tex
December 11, 2006 07:04 PM | Link to this
Any thoughts regarding Giles’ decline in numbers…with the steroid scandal. How else can you explain such a curious drop in production and his inability to stay healthy.
By Fed Up
December 11, 2006 07:05 PM | Link to this
I can’t stand Giles. I think he’s highly overrated. But the idea of letting a player go for nothing. NOTHING! Boils my blood. It’s beyond asinine that a multi-billion dollar corporation can’t pay this guy for a season and then ditch him at the July trading deadline for prospects. Time-Warner can perform unnatural acts with itself as far as I’m concern. I say we boycott all Braves home games, telecasts, and the purchase of any Braves gear. They’re turning us into a small market team. Liberty thinks they can spin us for a profit. I say we crap on the deal and drive down the value of the team if they let Giles go for nothing!
By woogidy
December 11, 2006 07:08 PM | Link to this
Tenn-Paul. I agree 100%. Build a TEAM, not a roster.
By ernesto
December 11, 2006 07:19 PM | Link to this
Do you think the Braves will go after Marcus after they non-tender him? Or do you think there would be an impression that there would be too much bad blood on Giles’ side?
By Robert(Justice Is The Best)
December 11, 2006 07:21 PM | Link to this
TennesseePaul, I wanted to tell you about the Red Sox situation Matsuzuke (sp?). It really puts him at a disadvantage and I’m surprised he hasn’t told Boras to go to hell. Gammons, Tim K., and Steve Phillips all said the same thing about this situation. The Red Sox won the bidding at $51 mil. That money goes to the Japanese team that the pitcher belongs to, but only if he signs a contract. If the player is not signed, serious repercussions for the player. First, he cannot go back to the Japanese team he wanted to leave from because they won’t want him back. In this case his not signing would cost them $51 million dollars. Secondly, he cannot attempt to come back to the majors for two years. Meaning he can’t attempt to sign with a major league team until after 2008. The other issue this guy could have is that other Japanese teams could shy away from him knowing that he will bolt in two years or at the very least not give him much money. All these things are the reasons why everyone initially felt this deal would get done because this guy put himself in a difficult position. I still think something will get worked out. Boras can’t be so stupid as to not realize he is not in a position of power like he is with Major League players.
Okay, now I have a trade proposal that could satisfy both the Braves and the Rays and it would involve the Angles. Here it goes. The Braves would send the Angels LaRoche, Diaz or Langerhans, and if they pushed Salty or Escobar. The Rays would get Davies and Joe Saunders from the Angels. The Braves would get Baldelli and Kotchman. The deal would potentially work best for the Rays. They get two young starters who have major experience and in Saunders’ case he had a better than decent year last year filling in for Bartolo Colon. The Angles get LaRoche, who fills their need for a power hitting 1B. They would also get a good 4th OF in either Langy or Diaz. The Braves get their future CF in Baldelli and leadoff hitter. Kotchman can platoon with Thorman to play 1st unless one of them emerge. Kotchman has tremendous talent and upside. I know that word sucks. The Angles would possibly be willing to let Saunders go since he is the odd man out of the rotation (Colon, Lackey, Santana, Escobar, and Weaver). I would think getting LaRoche and a solid 4th Of would more than offset the loss of Saunders and Kotchman. So, what does everyone think? Also, by getting two starters the Rays would be less upset about not getting Chuck James.
Another deal could be with the Angles. The Braves could send Davies, LaRoche, and either Langy or Diaz for Figgins, Saunders, and Kotchman. I personally like the first deal better but this could work. I think the Angles would at least give it some thought. To me the first deal would be better because Baldelli is cheaper than Figgins.
By Royfrom Texas
December 11, 2006 07:25 PM | Link to this
DOB—This is my first time to make any statements on this Blog, although I’ve been reading the comments of many on this Blog for several years now. I certaintly don’t like what is happening in the Braves’organization to date. Seems like a few of the great leaders that are suppose to be looking out for the fans “that pays the bills” for the Atlanta Braves are not getting their monies worth for supporting this team. Apparently, some “Loco Weed” have been hit a litte to often. Who in in their right mind would give up some of the real good and proven players for some of the other players that we as Braves fans know very little about. Why would you give up LaRoche, Giles, or C. James for anyone at all. I know they are still with the Braves organization as of this writing but, tomorrow they maybe gone just to save a few dollars. JS must have enough money to bring back Giles and keep LaRoche, James, Davies, if he wanted to. Unless he plans on bringing back Jordan, Platt,or Jorge Sosa and others that should be released outright.
By Jared
December 11, 2006 07:30 PM | Link to this
Chuck James should, and probably is, untouchable. After all of Schuerholz’s talk of how much he cares about the pitching again, trading away James would be just about the dumbest thing possible. Keep Chuck James.
By Bobby Cox
December 11, 2006 07:35 PM | Link to this
I can’t wait to get Baldelli. He’ll fit well in a platoon system with Langerhans, Diaz, Thorman and Jordan.
By brian
December 11, 2006 07:37 PM | Link to this
Any thoughts to the Braves trading LaRoche to get a young pitching prospect and then flipping that prospect to the Devil Rays for Baldelli? Or may the Braves be working behind the scenes for a package of prospects for Andruw Jones from the DOdgers or Angels for example and the flipping the pitching prospect to the Devil Rays with Escobar for Baldelli.No way and no how do I trade Chuck James for anybody right now. Look at his stats all the way through the minors. Chuck James has great stuff and has proven himself a winner at every level so far as well as for one half a season in the big leagues.
In my dream GM world, we would have and OF of Kemp, Baldelli, and Francouer with Andy LaRoche the new 3B/IF prospect from the Dodgers while keeping Davies, James, and Salty. Big loss with Andruw of course, but the Braves stand no chance in signing him, trade him somewhere to Andruw’s liking where he can get an extension to Boras’s likingm while the Braves get adequate compensation. If the Blue Jays hold onto Wells, this has to increase Andruw’s value now while giving him some competition for the huge contract next offseason
By Chris Moneymaker
December 11, 2006 07:39 PM | Link to this
If the Braves nontender Giles, its the same thing as saying goodbye. Else they would have approached him with an offer already.
By KC
December 11, 2006 07:47 PM | Link to this
Jim: “If we are trying to build a base starting with pitching, we can not trade away James! Who’s left? 40-year old John Smoltz, injured and expensive Mike Hampton, expensive and ineffective Tim Hudson, and TBA (pick two Villareal, Cormier, Davies, ?)”
Jim, first of all, I agree 100% that we cannot trade James. But I’m willing to bet sensitive body parts that Atlanta won’t part with him… so don’t worry. He’s not going anywhere. If the Braves were willing to part with an offensive stud like LaRoche to get pitching, that tells you where their priority is (on pitching). Of course, we already knew that because Schuerholz has made it abundantly clear that the mission this year was to bolster the pitching staff.
I did want to answer a couple other points, however. “Injured and expensive Mike Hampton”. My Hampton isn’t injured. He had ligament replacement surgery, and is recovering nicely. He should be 90-100% by opening day. It takes 18 months to fully recover from Tommy John surgery. Most players return after only 12 months, and struggle a bit at first as a result. Hampton has already pitched in a winter league, and has a full spring ahead to get back in the swing of things. Assuming it doesn’t take too long for Hampton to shake off the rust, in this market, Hampton will be a bargain at 12.5 million.
As for Hudson… yes, he was ineffective last year. Given that it was the first and only poor season of his career, and given the fact that he’s young, healthy, and hasn’t lost any of his stuff… it’s premature to predict a repeat performance. I would be surprised if we see another “ineffective” season from Hudson next year. And at 6 million… he’s anything but expensive (relatively speaking, of course).
Hudson’s “ineffective 2006 season was very comparable to Vicente Padilla’ performance over the last several years… for which he’s about to earn 11 million a season. Ouch. Is this insane or what? Ted Lilly too (11 mill a season)… absolutely inane!!!
Anyway, Hudson is not expensive this season, and really, neither is Hampton… not in this market.
By Mama Giles
December 11, 2006 07:49 PM | Link to this
Last season Marcus had a tender hand, tender thumb, and for a time a tender loin. It is not his fault.
By Billy (TBFnB)
December 11, 2006 07:54 PM | Link to this
Whats funny is we found a taker for ol’ Jorge and no takers for Giles….thats crazy.
By KC
December 11, 2006 07:58 PM | Link to this
Royfrom Texas:
Hey, what part of Texas?
The budget constraints are very real, and even if the Braves front office were inclined to go to ownership and beg for a few more million… they can’t do that with the sale of the team pending.
Any of the rumors you hear involving LaRoche, Davies, or anyone from the farm system, has nothing to do with clearing payroll. Giles is the only one here who is likely to be a budget casualty. The Braves won’t part with LaRoche or any of their top prospects unless they are infinitely confident in the player they would get in return.
Had the Braves not landed R.Soriano, the LaRoche-M.Gonzalez trade wouldn’t have been a bad one at all. Fortunately, we did land Soriano, and didn’t have to part with LaRoche to meet those pitching needs. (BTW: I wouldn’t pay to much attention to the “he’s only throwing 91mph in winter league” reports. That means absolutely nothing. I seriously doubt the Braves are in the slightest bit worried about that).
The sad truth is that the payroll constraints have forced the Braves to part with players they have liked to hold onto… Millwood, Giles, etc. And it also forces the Braves to meet needs through trades, rather than by way of free agency. But Schuerholz is doing a masterful job of juggling all of these things, and the Braves aren’t going anywhere anytime soon. I wouldn’t worry about the direction of this franchise. Plenty of young talent here to allow the Braves to hang around the top for a little while.
By KC
December 11, 2006 08:01 PM | Link to this
CORRECTION: I of course meant to say “Mike Hampton is not injured.”
By billy g
December 11, 2006 08:02 PM | Link to this
I wish Marcus nothing but the best. Hopefully, he will end up in his hometown and get to play the rest of his career with his brother.
Thanks Marcus.
By Paul
December 11, 2006 08:04 PM | Link to this
Under no circumstances should James be traded. Tampa wants too much. I don’t blame them for not wanting Davies. I don’t see him being effective in the A.L. East. As for Giles, I could see him signing with San Diego at the end of the week. DOB, that was not a good report from the scout about Soriano. If this is the case, will the braves trade for another reliever or sign Rietsma.
By The Grinch
December 11, 2006 08:10 PM | Link to this
Interesting Freudian slip, KC. :-)
By Daniel
December 11, 2006 08:11 PM | Link to this
Hey, look there is a guy in Richmond who could be the next Mike Gonzalez. Plus he is Georgia grown. Name: Will Startup. A young lefty who should be ready in a couple of years. P.S. There is no way I would trade Joey Devine
By MBATL
December 11, 2006 08:12 PM | Link to this
Billy, My WIFI sucks too, but I love her anyway.
As to the Braves: we had the 7th lowest ticket prices in MLB last year (of 30 teams), and the 14th highest attendance. Why is it so criminal that we only have about the 9th highest payroll? Get over it!
In the good ol’ days, Ted owned the Braves, and he also owned TBS… so all the revenue was his, and he was passionate about it. We’re not likely to have an owner or a situation like that again. So now, JS is given a number to work with, just like a department head at any other corporation.
We’ve got to be smart, develop young talent and mix it with veterans, to win. I think it’s more fun than to have the Yanks’ $200 million payroll. Last year, 7 of 8 position players were developed in our system (Renteria being the exception, and depending on who was in LF). I take a little pride in that… but still want to win.
When we went to the WS in ‘91, we were near the bottom of the payroll scale. It can be done, just has to be done smart. And with pitching.
By TennesseePaul
December 11, 2006 08:12 PM | Link to this
Robert(JIB): I had read all that about the process for DM. Didn’t know about the 2 year rule. But that was part of my point (on the last blog I think). BoSox don’t have to cave to any demand Borass proposes. Borass is killing DMs MLB career. The process sucks for the player, but that’s the way it is now. Borass is going to have to bite the bullet and just settle for his 6 figure cut.
By Daniel
December 11, 2006 08:14 PM | Link to this
Billy G: You are right. Giles gave us what we wanted for a few years. Now it is time for him to go have fun and play with his brother in his hometown.
By Billy (TBFnB)
December 11, 2006 08:20 PM | Link to this
MBATL,
If your comments after the WIFI comment was directed at me I think you should go re-read my post stamped December 11, 2006 05:47 PM.
By Lew
December 11, 2006 08:23 PM | Link to this
I’ll put up a $100 to keep Giles. Think TW might be interested?
By KC
December 11, 2006 08:23 PM | Link to this
Grinchy: I know… that sounded gay, didn’t it?
Did you happen to see the basketball quote I posted in the blog the other day?
By KC
December 11, 2006 08:26 PM | Link to this
I loved the Nick Esasky reference at 6:40. funny stuff. There’s a name I might have soon forgotten has someone not brought him up.
By MBATL
December 11, 2006 08:27 PM | Link to this
Billy, only the part about WIFI, which was a joke… the rest was for the general pop. No offense intended. Sorry it wasn’t more clear.
By Ron Roberts
December 11, 2006 08:27 PM | Link to this
If arbitration were run “fairly,”….
…arbitration wouldn’t mean pay raise regardless of production.
I’d like to see arbitration be a situation wher underperforming athletes weren’t given raises everytime they went into arbitration vs. their team. If arbitration worked like that for us, who’d be unhappy with it?
By KC
December 11, 2006 08:27 PM | Link to this
Lew: since I’m local… send the $100 to me, and I’ll personally approach them about it.
By WedgieBoy
December 11, 2006 08:29 PM | Link to this
Billy, My WIFI sucks too, but I love her anyway.
Good one.
By Daniel
December 11, 2006 08:34 PM | Link to this
Did you know that the Braves signed Willie Harris
By Billy (TBFnB)
December 11, 2006 08:36 PM | Link to this
Oh well then I would love her too…the fact..do i dare…that she sucks makes her even more appealing.
By Phat Phalcon
December 11, 2006 08:36 PM | Link to this
Hey Robert I personally enjoy reading your trade proposals as misguided as some may be. Two things though:
1) Laroche, Davies, Escobar, AND an OF? Sure, as long as we get Kazmir back.
2) I hate myself already for being the one to point this out but for god’s sake it’s the ANGELS dude! You’ve been trying to pull deals with geometry. Dunno why I care…
I say stand pat at this point. Why not try Diaz at leadoff? Good contact guy. I’m guessing he’d be respectable there.
I still say Andruw to the ChiSox for Podsednik and a ton of prospects could work if Chicago ponied up a long-term deal. I know he had an off year but we could do worse than Podsednik and Giles at the top. I’d still stand pat though.
DOB I’m prepared for my scolding for talking Andruw. Next I’ll tell you that music can’t be any good if it isn’t on the radio…
By KC
December 11, 2006 08:37 PM | Link to this
Who the heck is Willie Harris??
By Weasel
December 11, 2006 08:37 PM | Link to this
Billy, My WIFI sucks too, and that’s why I love her.
By The Grinch
December 11, 2006 08:43 PM | Link to this
KC, I saw it. That was pretty messed up. As for your 8:26, Esasky’s probably forgotten his own name as least as often as you have.
Now, ARE YOU READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL?
Sorry. Hank Just asked me; thought I’d pass it along (pun intended).
By Phat Phalcon
December 11, 2006 08:43 PM | Link to this
Something tells me some WIFIs would be whuppin some a*******es if they read this thread…
By Billy (TBFnB)
December 11, 2006 08:44 PM | Link to this
He was supposed to be a Red stud a very long time ago from what I remeber.
By Daniel
December 11, 2006 08:44 PM | Link to this
Willie Harris was the lead-off man before Podsednik went to the WhiteSox. He is an outfieder and a second baseman
By Lew
December 11, 2006 08:44 PM | Link to this
KC-The way it’s looking, if you me, Metro Dude and Grinch are going to that game over Labor Day, I’m gonna have to spring for the tickets or we may be SOL. I ain’t gonna send you Marcus’ money, too.