AJC > Sports > Braves > Blog > Archives > 2006 > December > 07 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USGood trade, but what now for Braves?
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Impressive work by John Schuerholz and Frank Wren in Orlando, but now what?
Now that the Braves have bolstered their bullpen in a major way by trading Horacio Ramirez _ I’m still amazed that’s all they had to give up _ for setup man and potential future closer Rafael Soriano, they have decisions to make.
The two big ones are seemingly interconnected _ 1. Should the Braves trade or non-tender Marcus Giles (the tender date is Tuesday, Dec. 12), and 2. Should they trade Adam LaRoche.
In case they forget to ask me, here’s what I’d do if it were my decision: Trade Giles for whatever you can get before Tuesday, to get rid of his projected $5-plus million salary, or non-tender him if you can’t find a taker.
This would allow you to keep LaRoche, and I absolutely would not trade LaRoche now that the Braves don’t have to use him to get the pitching they swiped from Seattle. No reason to trade a guy who’s only going to make about $3 mill next season and might hit hit 35-40 homers and drive in 110 (LaRoche drove in 90 last year hitting near the bottom of the order most of the season).
Beyond the basics _ .285-32-90 _ here’s a few LaRoche stats I found in the new Bill James Baseball Handbook: He was 10th in the NL in OPS (.915) and fifth in the second half (1.042) behind only Ryan Howard, Lance Berkman, Albert Pujols and Garrett Atkins.
LaRoche was third in the NL in “BPS” (batting average plus slugging percentage; gotta love those B.James stats) vs. fastballs with a 1.026 total, behind a couple of decent hitters named Howard (1.199) and Pujols (1.045).
He was fifth in OPS among NL 1B, behind Pujols, Howard, Berkman and Nick Johnson.
And he was eighth in OPS for lefty hitting vs. right-handed pitchers, with a .950 mark that trailed Howard (1.164), Berkman (1.142), Beltran (1.053), some dude named Chipper (1.036) and another named McCann (1.001), Carlos Delgado (.977) and Johnson (.952).
That’s right, three Braves in the top eight in that category. But that’s another story for another day. Maybe tomorrow, if I’m bored.
Again, let me reiterate: They don’t need to trade LaRoche now, not if they drop Giles’ salary. And if you don’t HAVE to trade LaRoche, then you don’t trade him.
Sure, they could revisit the deal with the Angels and probably get utility stud Chone Figgins, 1B Casey Kotchman and another, lesser piece, but then you’ve filled the leadoff spot but replaced a fine all-around first baseman with Scott Thorman or Kotchman, neither of whom is comparable to LaRoche defensively or offensively.
Besides, the Braves believe they can get good work from one or a combination of prospects at 2B, and a year from now they might really have a solid 2B emerge from that group.
And a year from now, if LaRoche has another good year and becomes too expensive to keep (assuming payroll doesn’t rise much), you can always trade him for plenty then, and either move Chipper to first base in 2008 or consider Jarrod Saltalamacchia for the job (but Bobby Cox reiterated Wedndesday that the Braves aren’t ready to move Salty from the catching spot yet, and might keep him there to maintain his value, which will be enormous if he bounces back with a strong year in the minors).
Anyway … Tim Hudson appears likely to be back, because the Braves don’t have to deal him and were never going to simply dump his salary without getting plenty of talent back. At $6 mill next season he’s a bargain, and if he has a strong year he’ll still be a bargain at $13 mill the next year, easily tradeable if the Braves feel the need next winter.
This team had a great winter meetings just by making the deal for the nasty, extremely effective Soriano without giving up anything except Horacio, who was going to have to compete for a fifth-starter job if he was back with the Braves.
Good as Horacio looked in 2003 as a rookie, he simply hasn’t panned out because of his string of injuries. Change of scenery might be the best thing for “Ho.”
Consider this: Ramirez was 14-8 with a 3.58 ERA in his first 38 major league starts though May 25, 2004. Then his shoulder woes began. Since then, he’s 16-14 with a 4.60 ERA in 48 games (46 starts) with 117 strikeouts, 99 walks and 301 hits allowed in 279-2/3 innings.
That ain’t good, folks. And that’s all the Braves gave up to get Soriano, who’s the same age (27) and has a 2.17 ERA and .197 opponents’ average in 108 relief appearances, with 151 strikeouts and 37 walks in 128-2/3 innings.
Comments
By Josh
December 7, 2006 11:17 AM | Link to this
David, on the Braves official site it says this: “Late Wednesday evening, another Braves source indicated that the club could be ready to make a big trade on Thursday. There still hasn’t been much of a market for second baseman Marcus Giles, and it’s almost certain the club won’t be trading Hudson.” in the article about this trade.
Do you have any news/updates on this?
By Greg
December 7, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this
So who’s interested in Giles? San Diego? Oakland? SD has some nice starters, maybe we could pull a three way, sending Giles to SD for a pitcher to go somewhere to land us a leadoff guy.
Although has anyone floated Gregor Blanco as a LF/leadoff guy? He posts .400 OBP and steals bases. He’s Juan Pierre but better and cheaper.
By Wayne
December 7, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this
Dave: Great points. What was all that talk last night about the Braves were going to make a “big” trade today. Is there any real truth to those rumblings. Personally, because it is hard to get a flame throwing lefty reliever, I would still take the Gonzo deal, but wouldn’t trade LaRoche for just Figgins and Kotchman. I would need to get something significant for him.
I know the AJ dump is a long shot, but I still wish we could get something for him now, versus nothing in his walk year. I know he could put up big numbers, but it is possible to replace “some” of that production with whatever we get for him. Luis Gonzalez probably blew any chance we had of getting the Dodgers to take Andruw for Penny and Kemp, huh.
By John Adcox
December 7, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this
ESPN is reporting Ward to the Cubs… did I hear that right?
By John Adcox
December 7, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this
if we lose Ward, does that have any implications for LaRoche? Maybe the Braves want a right handed bat to pair with Thorman? Ouch.
By Josh
December 7, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this
Yea, its true. God dang it, how hard could it really be to resign him we NEEDED Ward and lost him.
Great job JS :|
Do one horrible thing, then one great thing, now one horrible thing.
OMG
By David O'Brien
December 7, 2006 11:37 AM | Link to this
Folks, several of you want me to give you insight into others reporting of a “big trade.” Well, I have no insight for one reason: There is no big trade. If I knew of a pending big trade, I would’ve said so last night. But there wasn’t, and there isn’t.
If the sites that said there’d be a “big trade” today knew anything more than that, they’d have provided some hint of what it would entail.
Sorry, but I’m not into the fanning-the-flames crap that goes on here, the throw-it-all-against-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks mentality.
Braves made a big trade last night. I don’t know of any “big trade” brewing today. That could change and change quickly, but right now, nothing. What are those places you read about the pending “big trade” reporting this morning?
that’s what I thought.
By bryan
December 7, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this
John…
Where is that Ward to Cubs link… where did you read that?
By Lew
December 7, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this
Wayne-Just ask yourself this one question-“Will we have a greater chance to win the East this year with Andruw or with pieces we get in return IF we could trade him”? The answer of course, is WITH him. End of story. He stays. Greg-In the latest issue of Chop Talk Magazine, which has a complete overview of the Braves’ farm system, Blanco is not even listed as one of the top 30 prospects in the Braves’ organization. In fact, his name is not even mentioned. What does this tell you?
By Josh
December 7, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this
So, there is NO Big Trade? We couldn’t even trade that scum Giles? Couldn’t even trade LaRoche? All we do is get Soriano and let Ward walk?
Wow, what a wasted Winter Meeting, and offseason so far.
Same old same old, thanks Official Site for getting our hopes up.
Sorry but this is pathetic and sickening.
By Wayne
December 7, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this
DOB, the “big trade” talk came from Mark Bowman on the Braves website.
“Late Wednesday evening, another Braves source indicated that the club could be ready to make a big trade on Thursday.”
By John Adcox
December 7, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this
Sorry. The link to the ward signing is here.
As for what it means for LaRoche, I was merely speculating wildly. It had nothing to do with fanning flames or anything like that. Just playin’ hot stove and all that.
John
By Lew
December 7, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this
Come on people-Ward is a good pich hitter-Maybe one of the best, but he is a pinch hitter. It’s not as if we lost a major piece of the machine. We only had him for one month and despite his good productivity, he wasn’t that huge a contributer to the second best offense in the NL. Don’t go into major throes of depression because we lost a player who would bat three times a week. Suicide is hardly necessary and our chances of dethroning the Mets did not just take a major hit. Get over it already. We got a stud set up man and future closer. Now THAT really makes a difference. I wish Ward well with the Windy City wayfarers (their team this year does feature some frequent flier miles).
By Lew
December 7, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this
Josh-Apparently you don’t have a clue.
By Stillborn Unicorn
December 7, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this
Josh - You disgust me. Everyone else - I think Soriano is a good move, provided he doesn’t have Herb Score syndrome from that beanie he took off his brow last year. (and for those of you wondering exactly what a stillborn unicorn is: it’s a lot of work for nothing).
By Steve
December 7, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this
DOB, the Seattle Mariner is reporting that Soriano is extremely injury prone and he’s an early season ending injury waiting to happen. Their saying its a matter of time before he blows out his arm too. However, the guy who wrote it seems overwhelmingly bitter about this trade too. So do you think this guy is just letting his emotions show and hoping Soriano gets hurt badly or does this guy have a good % chance of being shut down before we know it??
By John Adcox
December 7, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this
Josh, how about getting a post season appearance for Andruw? I’d settle.
Frankly, I love the Soriano trade and am disappointed about Ward. But I’d almost rather stand pat with what we have RIGHT NOW than pull the trigger on any of the other trades that have been rumored, especially since any outfielders from Tampa Bay are going to be too pricey.
Our offense was fine, and the pitching has improved dramatically. Yes, I know there are some major unanswered questions. But the only way to answer them is to play some games.
We have a little room, and some pieces, to make some moves at midseason. Why all the handwringing? What am I missing, pal?
Jeez, we should all have a blog meet up and hash this out in person over cold ones.
By Patrick
December 7, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this
Hey DOB,
There was an article on atlantabraves.com that made mention of a new twist with Andruw. I think all the people that want him traded were hoping for something to come of it
By Charles
December 7, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this
Only a rumor and someone please tell me if they have heard this recently:
A possible trade with Tampa Bay sending Chuck James to TB for Rocco Baldelli (with other players involved)
DOB, have you heard that?
By ChrisinPA
December 7, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this
I think the Braves made a great trade….I just want it to be finalized. For the Braves to pick up Soriano for Ramirez…the bullpen looks pretty solid…especially if they can get Boyer back.
Another good job John.
By Chad
December 7, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this
Lew
That’s a pretty short-sighted opinion. Front offices don’t make personnel decisions for one year only; sure we’re better next year with Andruw but what about 2008 when we have no Andruw and only a couple draft picks to compensate for losing him?
I’d rather have a 25 homer guy for 2 years than Andruw hitting 40 one year and some chump hitting 5 the year after that…
By DCBrave
December 7, 2006 12:03 PM | Link to this
Yahoo Sports is reporting that the Cubs are very close on a deal with Daryle Ward. I hope not. If we trade LaRoche (I hope not), he’ll be very important as a back-up and even possible starter.
By Arkansas Hillbilly
December 7, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this
Figgins is approaching Crawford status as far as amount of time being talked about on this blog…..
CL I apologize for the foul language, yesterday. But hey, at least I tried to warn you before you read it. Do I get demerits removed for the effort? ;)
By Lew
December 7, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this
Charles-It was discussed last night. It is doubtful that the Braves would trade James, a pitcher of the future,for anyone, much less for an outfielder (Baldelli) who just missed a year and a half straight with myriad injuries.
By John Adcox
December 7, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this
Charles, the latest rumor on the Rocco front is that the price is just too high. If it happens, it likely won’t be soon—Tampa Bay’s GM has already left the Winter Meetings.
John
By Chad
December 7, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this
Lew
That’s a pretty short-sighted opinion. Front offices don’t make personnel decisions for one year only; sure we’re better next year with Andruw but what about 2008 when we have no Andruw and only a couple draft picks to compensate for losing him?
I’d rather have a 25 homer guy for 2 years than Andruw hitting 40 one year and some chump hitting 5 the year after that…
By BravesFaninRockies
December 7, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this
Losing Ward (if it happens) would be a bit sad, but it may make as much sense as anything the Cubs do this off-season. Ward gives them insurance if DLee gets hurt, plus he’s an excellent bat off the bench. So long as the Braves keep LaRoche — let’s hope so —then Thorman (or Kelly Johnson!) becomes your lefty off the bench.
I can see the Braves picking up a right handed hitting util/backup guy. Unless they’re looking for Aybar to be a super-sub or think Prado could do the job as a righty pinch hitter.
By Charles
December 7, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this
Ward has been signed to a one-year deal by the cubs.
By Chad
December 7, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this
Lew
That’s a pretty short-sighted opinion. Front offices don’t make personnel decisions for one year only; sure we’re better next year with Andruw but what about 2008 when we have no Andruw and only a couple draft picks to compensate for losing him?
I’d rather have a 25 homer guy for 2 years than Andruw hitting 40 one year and some chump hitting 5 the year after that…
By DevilsAdvocate
December 7, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this
I know he has tons of wins, but not enough World Series wins. We’ve been very patient and it time for a huge change so please get rid of Bobby Cox. I know you guys will hate me for this, but it’s the truth. I loved Dan Reeves-Falcons also, but it was his time too. Merry Christmas.
By Charles
December 7, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this
John and Lew
Thank you for the comments. I am not good with blogs and am sometimes a little late on information. I appreciate your responses.
Charles
By Palamas
December 7, 2006 12:14 PM | Link to this
“Pathetic”? “Sickening”? You’ve got to be kidding. Just getting Soriano for HoRam was big. If the Braves had had Wickman and Soriano in their pen from opening day last year, the odds are excellent that they would have won the division. Ward was a nice piece, but he was useful almost exclusively as a pinch hitter, and I think getting the elite set-up man/future closer the Braves desperately needed outweighs letting a bench guy go.
By dumbbraves
December 7, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this
I wish the all Atlanta Teams would get new coaches. The Braves suck and won’t go far with Bobby Cox. He has got to go!!!!!
By Lew
December 7, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this
Chad-It’s not only MY shortsighted opinion, but that of BC and JS, also. Now I’ll go through this yet again. IF Andruw does leave via Free Agency next year (and both BC and JS say they will attempt to resign him and Andruw himself says he wants to remain a Brave) we will have had him and his production for 11 years-which is exactly what we paid him for. Should he leave, we will get 2 pretty highly placed draft picks. We will also have his salary to use to replace him. Just exactly WHAT deals have you heard of that will give us a 25 HR person who we would have under contract for two or more years? I sure haven’t heard of any. Now the only deal we HAVE heard was the offer, at the trade deadline, from the Red Sox for Coco Crisp and a rookie pitcher with no track record and an ERA of over 6. I don’t see a 25 HR guy in that deal, do you? Crisp is a flippin’ joke, Dude. Nothing else was offered at a time when contending teams traditionally overspend for that one piece to get them to the promised land. Think of it-a scrub outfielder and a rookie pitcher who has had his butt kicked to this point. Also, that was before Andruw became 10-5, and when the Braves could have traded him with no fuss. Do you have any idea whatsoever of the difficulties involved with trading him now? Add to this that his agent and Andruw himself have repeatedly said he would play in Atlanta in 07. I fail to understand what part of this that people don’t understand. Andruw is not going to be traded. Now if he does leave for free agency then I promise you we will replace him. We will never play without a center fielder and we will, I guarantee you, pay whoever it is that does replace him. WE’ve gotten what we paid for and that’s all you can ask.
By RK
December 7, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this
If Ward is starting for you, you’ve got bigger problems…
By Arkansas Hillbilly
December 7, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this
Lew, I’m not standing on the ledge or staring down the barrel of a 12 gauge about it, but we’ll see how important it would have been to sign Ward when Pete Orr is pinch-hitting in the bottom of the eight against the Mets in a tie game with runners on base next September….I just think that should have been a wise, cheap decision.
By DonCoburleone
December 7, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this
If JS trades Chuck James for Rocco Baldelli I’m going to become a CUBS fan…
By Billy (TBFKB)
December 7, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this
Here we go with Badelli again…however, the winter meeting are all but over…so I guess there is’nt much more to talk about for awhile.
I fear Giles is going to go the way of K. Millwood. Although, that did not turn out too bad for us.
Once again the meetings turn out well but anti-climatic on several levels.
By David O'Brien
December 7, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this
Ward turned down Braves for better offer. Schuerholz: “He told us we wasn’t coming to us. We really wanted him. It’s disappointing, but that happens. He took the deal that he liked.”…
So they made a great trade and lost a pinch-hitter. All in all, I’d give it a B-plus meetings grade for the Braves, all things considered, including their payroll and fact they didn’t give up LaRoche to get their man….
Josh, you’ve gotta be pretty damn cynical to consider this a failure of a meetings for the Braves. They made a great _ not good, but great in my opinion _ trade to get a setup man that other teams here were drooling over.
As for being injury prone, uh, they traded a guy who hasn’t stayed healthy for any of the past three seasons for a guy who hasn’t had any problems since Tommy John surgery, other than a sore shoulder that put him on the DL for 15 days in July, after which he threw perfectly fine when he returned.
Or is getting hit in the head by a line drive off Vlad the Bad’s bat make him injury prone? I don’t think so. They got a flat-out stud pitcher who throws 91-95 mph with great command, plus a good breaking ball (it’s a curve or slider, depending who you ask) and changeup.
I’m as skeptical as most, but come on, they gave up a guy who was fifth-starter at best next season, for a guy who can setup, close or even start if the Braves want him to (Cox just mentioned about him having the stuff and pitch repertoire to start, though Braves definitely got him to setup for now).
As for the “big deal,” hey, Bowman does good work. He obviously had someone tell him something was doing to happen. And maybe something was. But I hadn’t heard that. Means nothing more than I hadn’t heard it.
But I can tell you now, nothing big is happening today, unless it happens out of the blue. Braves don’t have anything pending, nothing close.
Schuerholz wouldn’t tip his hand regarding Giles and Tuesday, but my bet is they’re leaning toward non-tendering him if they don’t trade him first.
By DonCoburleone
December 7, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this
I’ve heard alot of the same rumors about Soriano and his injury problems… I believe he had Tommy John surgery in 2004…
But, even if Soriano is injury proned, we still made out on this deal… We basically are swapping an injury proned starter who is slightly above average at best for an injury proned reliever who is slightly below unhittable at his best. Great deal for John Scheurholz and the Braves…
By Lew
December 7, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this
Charles- No problem, Dude. If nothing else, those of us on this blog are usually willing to run our mouths-constantly. Sometimes we actually have something worth saying.
By Arkansas Hillbilly
December 7, 2006 12:27 PM | Link to this
But I wouldn’t go so far as to calling the situation “pathetic” or “sickening” considering the larceny we just committed with the Soriano deal. Thumbs up to JS on that one.
By eware
December 7, 2006 12:27 PM | Link to this
I was hoping we’d be able to sign Ward, but Prado showed that he can hit off the bench last season. Maybe this will allow for one of our minor league guys to step up. It’ll also be less expensive. I’m sure Ward was going to get at least a million bucks, so maybe this will help us keep LaRoche.
By David O'Brien
December 7, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this
Oh, and I guess it goes without saying, but the Ramirez/Soriano trade was finally announced. It’s official. Done deal.
By the way, Soriano ranked among AL’s top 10 relievers in ERA and opponents’ average last season. Just noticed he also allowed only six homers in 60 innings.
By Steve
December 7, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this
DOB, the Seattle Mariner is reporting that Soriano is extremely injury prone and he’s an early season ending injury waiting to happen. Their saying its a matter of time before he blows out his arm too. However, the guy who wrote it seems overwhelmingly bitter about this trade too. So do you think this guy is just letting his emotions show and hoping Soriano gets hurt badly or does this guy have a good % chance of being shut down before we know it??
By Spider29
December 7, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this
I like the trade with Seattle. Great move to strengthen our bullpen. I also like the “no-trade” concerning LaRoche. Not that I really want Giles traded but better him than Adam. LaRoche is a fine defensive player who is coming into his own offensively. When we lose Andruw later, we will be glad Adam is in the lineup. More speed in the lineup would be nice but it is hard to argue that point too much after the offense the Braves put up in 2006. Keep the basic core of the everyday players (minus Giles), add a piece or two for the bench and possibly another for the bullpen. Then if the Braves stay healthier than last year, I love our chances for post-season play in 2007. And thanks for keeping us informed, DOB.
By David O'Brien
December 7, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this
DonC, again let me state: Chuck James is NOT being traded to the D-Rays. Period. End of story…
And Hillbilly, I agree with you on Ward. They should have gotten that done weeks ago. I had a bad feeling when I talked to Daryle last month and he said how much he wanted back but how the Braves were trying to get him to sign for a lot less than he was looking for. Couldn’t write it then because he was still negotiating with them and he didn’t want me to quote him on it….
Chalk that up to a casualty of the $80 million payroll.
By Matthew
December 7, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this
Keith Foulke declined arbitration and is becoming a free agent. He said he wants to be closer to home (he’s from SD but I don’t know if that’s home). Could we possibly sign him if we needed another setup man? I know Gonzalez from Pittsburgh was a possibility, and if we still want another bullpen arm, Foulke might be an affordable option. Then again, in this insane market, he’s probably too expensive.
By geauxbraves2000
December 7, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this
Great move IMHO in the Soriano deal. Not so great move letting Ward go, but not the end of the world. The pieces are starting to fall in place but the puzzle is still not complete.
Geaux Braves!!
By David O'Brien
December 7, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this
One MORE thing: For those interested, Braves lost RHP Sean White to Pittsburgh in the Rule 5 draft. No great shakes. He’s 25 and was 5-6 with a 4.40 ERA in 16 starts last season at Richmond.
By Lew
December 7, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this
HillyBilly-I hear you, Dude, but apparently it wasn’t going to be as cheap a signing as you think. Also, I couldn’t find the figures, but I seem to remember that Pete Orr had a pinch hitting BA well over .300 last year. Maybe he doesn’t have the power of Ward, but he was pretty productive and DOES have much more speed than Ward. It would have been nice to have Ward, but it is hardly going to be a devastating loss. Put down the cyanide, oh Appalachain American. Careful with that axe, Eugene.
By David O'Brien
December 7, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this
Oh, and Peter Buck turned 50 couple days ago and Tom Waits 57 today. Don’t know if that makes me feel old or young…
Selah
By DonCoburleone
December 7, 2006 12:39 PM | Link to this
DOB, what is his arbitration status?? Is this Soriano’s first or second year of arbitration?
By Lew
December 7, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this
I tried to figure out last night, that if I were to choose who I had rather be hit in the head by a ball off the bat of either Vlad or Berkman. I’m not so sure I could make that call, but I would not even want to be close to any ball hit by Vlad.
By John Adcox
December 7, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this
The Soriano deal is just amazing. Amazing. But heavens, is there no way at all to keep Giles at least until Spring Training? No wonder teams won’t trade if they think he’s going to be nontendered. That’s just astonishing to me. Now we’re… what? A million or two over budget? Jeez.
John
By Billy (TBFKB)
December 7, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this
I guess you really appreciate the talent this guy has DOB. I dont think we will regret this deal but we may long for another major league starter during the season.
By Billy (TBFKB)
December 7, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this
Another topic of conversation is the Cubs spending money during the wrong winter. If they wait another year…they get AJ or Vernon Wells instead of Soriano. I think the Cubs pretty much screwed themsleves this year. I dont see them improving that much. IMO
By Lew
December 7, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this
DOB-I’m closer to Tom Waits age than either Pete Buck or yourself. I prefer to look at it as getting better, rather than older, but then again, I believe in a league wide ERA of under 3.00. I may be fooling myself. BTW-Have you heard anything about Grace Potter and the Nocturnals, a local Vermont band? She has been favorably compared (with some justification) to Bonnie Raitt and Janis Joplin, vocally.
By Billy (TBFKB)
December 7, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this
Oh yeah…think about it this way too…For the price you paid soriano you could get Schmidt and Zito. Which would you rather have…me take the two pitchers.
By tyler
December 7, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this
for all of you negative braves fans out there letting JS know how bad he’s done… calm down and shut your mouth. JS is the best GM in the game and he knows exactly what he’s doing. Hitting in the 2 spot Giles is a great player when he’s healthy. When he’s injured it’s from pure effort, he tries as hard as he can on every single play. how much more can you ask of a guy. LaRoche had a breakout year last year and can grow on that. The starting pitching looks strong with smoltz, hudson (assuming he can be hudson of old), davies, james, and hampton. I just got done looking at the bullpin and assuming we get some guys healthy it looks really good now too. Left field has a question mark, but with sooooo much young talent someone is sure to come out well in there. IF we have to trade Giles for the money we should, but maybe some atlanta “fans” should stop criticizing and go to some games. Maybe stand up and chear during key situations instead of yelling at people to sit down. Then our payroll would expand and JS would actually have some money to work with.
Good job JS. Keep doing what you do!!
By Josh
December 7, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this
I appologize that you guys thought I was p** about the Soriano trade, I love the trade and think its the best throughout the League.
HOWEVER, I was really hoping we’d deal for a true Leadoff Hitter, and a Left Fielder but it appears that were stuck with Giles at leadoff (Umm, don’t the Braves realise how poorly he did last year?) and Langerhans at Left Field (He did alright but will have to do more for us to get farther in the Playoffs)
Also, it would have been nice to get Andruw Jones dealt for someone of equal value or get good young pitchers, and a lead off hitter or something. But looks like Andruw will leave after this year with his agent Boras.
I guess, I was looking for more and hoping they’d realise but, I guess not.
By The Grinch
December 7, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this
Hillbilly, Whoever’s pitching to Orr in the crunch-time situation you outlined will no doubt be reduced to a quivering pile of goo by Orr’s blinding “Upside.” Have no fear. Same goes for Aybar, though he lacks that unique “Canadian whitey” speed Orr possesses in spades.
DOB, I read that Mariner column last night as well and both the author and the bloggers responding to it almost to a man mentioned that Soriano’s arm was one pitch away from flying off. They seemed delighted that they got rid of him for that reason but were mad they didn’t get someone better in return. I take it this is just sour grapes then? Surely we had him thoroughly looked over before we made the deal?
By Billy (TBFKB)
December 7, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this
DOB,
In your esteemed opinion what makes this news worthy…
“11:10 a.m., from Steve Phillips • Barry Bonds’ agent, Jeff Borris, was seen leaving the hotel.” - ESPN
I have no earthly idea why that is news….oh…and agent leaving a hotel…thats great stuff steve.
By Arkansas Hillbilly
December 7, 2006 12:56 PM | Link to this
Lew, I surrender, since you’re throwing an old (very old) Pink Floyd song at me…..Rarely do I encounter someone who is as deep into the Floyd Experience as I. And no I’m not a dopehead.
By Greg
December 7, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this
DOB:
If the Braves non-tender Giles, doesn’t that mean they get nothing in return?
Wouldn’t they be better off trading him for anybody rather than non-tendering him?
Thanks.
By Jack
December 7, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this
DOB, you’re excited about the Braves stealing this guy, but maybe Seattle has soured on him because they think he is an injury waiting to happen, just as we’ve soured on HoRam. The GM in Seattle is not dumb and the organization knows more about him than we do,so maybe they think they got the steal. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad we made the deal with the hope this guy will stay healthy. But, if I’m the Braves I still trade LaRoche (and I agree with you how good he is)to Pittsburg for the lefty and agree that we need to dump Giles’ salary if necessary and go with a young guy. I still believe Chipper is the key to the Braves winning the Division. If he can stay health enough to give us 140 “Chipper-like” games, including Sept. & Oct. especially with that bullpen we will win it, unless everything else falls apart.
By Serge
December 7, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this
Why the heck do the Braves need to cut payroll? They aleady saved 3 million from the Horam-Soriano trade.
Why not keep Giles (Who is better than Prado and the rest of the pretenders) and LaRoche?
That makes sense to me. Trading or God Forbid Non tendering Marcus Giles and DOWNGRADING at 2B just to save a couple bucks is idiocy. Especially when we should be at the 80m budget mark already…
….Unless were cutting more payroll than the Front Office is letting on… 70M 75m? And keep it on the down low to not p** off the fan base? Seems like it to me.
By David
December 7, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this
DOB, why do the Braves have to be under the $80 million payroll right now instead of when the season begins? What’s to stop them from tendering Giles for now in order to continue to have his rights until such a time as a better deal opens up? Even ignoring the fact that he’s a fine player for a second, why would any team give up a good piece in exchange for Giles if they know they can get him for free in five days?
By Jason J.
December 7, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this
We don’t need to trade Andruw! All you people keep saying that if we don’t then we’ll get nothing in return. That’s not true! We’ll get draft picks but most importantly…we’ll get money to spend! The money alloted for Andruw will be spent on a free agent. The Braves can sign someone that off season to replace him. I’d hate to see Andruw play somewhere else but let’s make it HIS decision. Let’s not ship him off just because we’re scared of his agent. Make a valid offer next year and let him resign if he wants…if not let’s go shopping with that money. JS knows what he’s doing so have a little faith in the man. He got us Fred McGriff for Tony Tarasco for God’s sake! Plus alot of other great moves! Go Braves!
By Lew
December 7, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this
Josh-Apparently you haven’t been paying much attention. There is a major probability that Giles will no longer be a Brave, hence no leadoff in Atlanta for him. Also, no one has been mentioning Langerhans as a starting outfielder, but rather a Thorman and Diaz platoon. See, your worries have no basis. DOB-Is it at all possible the Braves could offer Giles a backloaded multi year deal with him making roughly next year what he made this? Or is it possible to non-tender him and have him resign with the Braves as a free agent?
By berigan
December 7, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this
Well, who would trade from Giles if they know the Braves can’t afford to pay him 5-6 Mil? SD can sign him for one year at a lot less than that, and not trade away anyone to get him, to boot! Too bad JS has to mention how poor the team is all the time. Damn, the Yankees might just sign him to be a backup in case Cano gets hurt. They’ve got money, they can stuff like that. I do sound like a gloomy Gus, sorry. The Seattle trade was a great move. I just see a team without a leadoff hitter(I know, who needs them?) And now with a hole at 2nd base, and nothing in return to show for that hole. Perhaps JS can get some AA prospect from someone for Giles. There, call me Mr. Optimism!
By Carolina Lady
December 7, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this
Afternoon, HillBilly! Ok. Just this once - take off the demerits. :-)))
Scalp, no big hurry for the recipe - whenever we hit a slow spot will be fine. And I appreciate it! :-))
Lew, how’s the eye?
DOB, we really appreciate the work you’ve put in and for keeping us updated!
Nathan, boy, you are in biiiiiig trouble!! Disparaging the esteemed Wurlitzer! Wait til journalist jimmy smith sees that!! Sure am glad it wasn’t me! mmmmmm-ummph! (Actually, it was a pretty funny pickup! Don’t tell anyone I said that, though…..)
Hey, Green One! Don’t want you to feel ignored. sigh…..roll eyes….. :-))
JOURNALIST BOB IS BACK!!! slightly changed moniker - Bob, plain & simple - Bob, dear one, you will never be either plain or simple! We’re so glad you’re returned!!
By Lew
December 7, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this
HillBilly-Never thought you were. Just set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun and See Emily Play, Dude. Watch out for that Interstellar Overdrive and just run like hell.
By Haywood Jablome
December 7, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this
Just to echo Greg’s question, what is our compensation for Giles if he is non-tendered and then signs somewhere else? What is the benefit to such a strategy?
By TennesseePaul
December 7, 2006 01:10 PM | Link to this
DOB: Saw this in a Pitsburgh paper:
Braves insisted on left-handed starting pitcher Paul Maholm as part of any deal, the Pirates balked at packaging him and second baseman Jose Castillo
Now, I know that this talk is dead for now, but had you heard anything about Paul Maholm and Castillo? Everything else I saw was about Gonzalez. Just curious if there was any validity to this. The guy sites un-named sources and after being enlightened the other day about the validity of un-named sources in a grand jury testimony… well you know, I thought I’d better double check it. If you have any DNA to back this up, that’d be nice too.
By David O'Brien
December 7, 2006 01:10 PM | Link to this
Billy, it wasn’t newsworthy _ only painfully uncomfortable to watch a former GM chasing down Barry and be brushed aside like a cub reporter from the ABC affiliate out of Hayseed, Neb….
Grinch, you wrote: “DOB, I read that Mariner column last night as well and both the author and the bloggers responding to it almost to a man mentioned that Soriano’s arm was one pitch away from flying off.”
Don’t know what to tell you, other than he’s had one arm injury _ Tommy John surgery _ which he came back from to pitch a career-high 60 innings last season despite missing the final month of the season after getting hit by a line drive.
He had a sore shoulder and spent 15 days on the DL in July because Seattle rode him like a rented mule in his first year back from T.J. surgery. That’s it. That’s his arm woes, near as I can tell.
And they got him for a guy who’s had elbow AND shoulder surgery and had three stints on the disabled list last year. Yeah, I hope the Braves know what they’re doing…. Geez.
By berigan
December 7, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this
Serge , Only thing I can figure is if it’s a HARD 80 Mil(Don’t you dare go over that amount even by a penny, JS or out the door you go!) The braves need some flexiblity in case someone gets hurt, and you can’t trade for some guy making 2 million even…I think the Batboy’s at Yankee stadium make 1.5 Million.
By DCarp23
December 7, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this
Another impressive number of Soriano’s in my opinion is the fact that he issued only 20 walks in 60 ip last year (not a great number, but better than many). That was a huge problem for some of the Braves less experienced relievers last year: Yates had 31 BBs in 50 innings and McBride had 32 in 56 innings. McBride improved a great deal as the season went on in that regard (he had walked 19 guys in his first 23 innings) and his ERA dropped precipitously as a result.
So the fact that you have two guys at the end of ball games now who don’t put guys on base is a HUGE improvement over the crew that was out in the pen prior to August of last season.
By pelk
December 7, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this
DOB, first time poster here. Love the blog. Sorry if this has already been stated, but how much is Soriano going to be making next year? Does it save us any $?
I completely agree with holding onto LaRoche, and completely agree with dumping Giles salary. But my biggest concern is LF. Has there been any discussion of Giles for a decent bat in left? Martin Prado will be a fine defensive replacement at 2B, and any offensive fall off be too dramatic considering Giles inability to get comfortable outside the 2 spot. If a lead off man isn’t that important, as BC and JS assert, then batting an unproven talent from our system isn’t problem. We can consider that a locked in weak spot.
But my sincere belief is that Diaz’s numbers from last season were a fluke. I think the more NL pichers see him, the more they will be able to deal with his erratic swing. I think we will see a precipitous drop off in offensive production from LF next year. We have a great defensive sub for that spot, so why not use Giles to try and get another bat?
Anyone who feels we should be trading Andruw right now, should be willing to admit that they have no interest in the post season. We play this game to win championships and without Andruw this year, that is impossible. We can’t know what will happen next offseason. Our budget may go up $20 million (though it’s unlikely) JS apparently has dirt on many GMs and could swing another mammoth deal. We don’t know.
By DonCoburleone
December 7, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this
I am going to have to say, I have been (and still am) a mild LaRoche basher… But I must say I don’t think we should trade him this year. He’s still going to be relatively cheap and worse(or best?)case we have him for 3 more years at 6-8 mil on his final 2 years. If he continues to put up the numbers he did this year, $8mil is a BARGAIN. However, I think if the better option is to keep him for this year, show everybody that he is a legit Power bat with gold-glove caliber defensive skills (when he’s on his med’s at least), and then trade him next offseason for a huge pitching bounty…
By The Grinch
December 7, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this
I think non-tendering Giles would be asinine. When hitting in the no. 2 slot he’s a better player than Renteria and younger. As a lead-off hitter he’s a joke, and we can all (including Giles) thank Bobby Cox for keeping him in there all year and ruining his market value almost completely. If Marcus had been in the 2 hole all year he would’ve hit .280-90 with 15-20 homers and an assload of doubles, and his defense speaks for itself. Now we get a “salary dump” of about 5 mil which in this market is just about enough to get someone half as good as Giles. Thanks Bobby! I’m starting to appreciate Robert’s point of view more and more.
By Lew
December 7, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this
If we non tender Giles he becomes a free agent and we get nothing since we didn’t go the arbitration route. Ma’am-How are you doing? Mom and Kelly well? I saw the eye DR. yesterday for the one week check up and the vision has improved to 20/30 from 20/200. They are thrilled as they never thought it would ever get better than 20/60. Now there is and always will be retinal damage and a bad blurry spot, but as long as there is no retinal difficulty in my left eye, I’m fine. If the left eye goes, so does the artistic career, in all likelihood.
By Myron
December 7, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this
Why should we waste our time and energy following the Braves anymore if the so-called owners cannot invest enough money to keep the team competitive?
Suppose the producers of Casino Royale did not have a big enough payroll to get Daniel Craig - so they settled for the affordable Steve Buscemi to play Bond. Would that interest you?
By TennesseePaul
December 7, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this
LOL! OK, two things now that I’ve caught up a bit on the blog.
In all seriousness, thanks for the updates DOB. I really appreciate it.
GO BRAVES!!
By beachcomber
December 7, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this
Allow me to join the chorus - great trade. Even better was not making the deal with the Angels. Don’t think we’ve seen the best of LaRoche just yet. Figgins’ average and OBP have gone down each each. Kotchman hit a buck fifty two last year - good kid though - watched him play H.S. ball down here in Florida. Still having trouble understanding why Aybar is out of the mix for lead-off and second base if we must unload Giles. His OBP is much beter than than Figgins. Should be an interesting spring. Just a little over sixty days and counting!
By Efrim D
December 7, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this
DOB, the Braves still don’t have a leadoff hitter. They did a tremendous job with the Soriano trade. I would not trade Laroche for Figgins and Kotchman. But if Adenhart was in any package, I would deal Laroche and Giles to the Angels for him. That kid is the third best righty in the minors behind hughes and bailey. They shouldnt non tender Giles, but trading him for Brendan Donnelly, who also will be non tendered, is a possiblity. As much as it would hurt the Braves in 07, they should deal Hudson. There is no way a team will take him for 2 years 26 million unless he has a sub 3.30 era. He def. will not!!!
By Phat Phalcon
December 7, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this
Well DOB since you said there’s no new trades I guess we can start with the fantasy world again. Here’s one from left field for you:
Andruw to ChiSox for Podsednik and a slew of prospects.
Renteria and some of above-mentioned slew to O’s for Tejada and cash.
Hope for rebound offensive year for Podsednik batting leadoff and playing solid CF defense while having a stick at SS locked up for a few years that’s at least as good as Andruw’s (better OBP, slightly fewer HR’s). Do what you will with Giles.
By David
December 7, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this
“Suppose the producers of Casino Royale did not have a big enough payroll to get Daniel Craig - so they settled for the affordable Steve Buscemi to play Bond. Would that interest you?”
This is a bad example in that it’s established by the Broccoli family that they were unwilling to pay a name actor like Clive Owen or Ewan McGregor to play Bond. The main reason Craig got the gig is because he was dirt cheap.
By Billy (TBFKB)
December 7, 2006 01:36 PM | Link to this
I know their has to be at least one team that will give something up for Giles…I cant belive he has no value. Stupid question I know…will JS non-tender him just because he does not think he is getting fair value in a trade? Naw, that’s not true….there has to be team that wants him.
By TK
December 7, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this
I just wanted to throw a name out. Zack Greinke of the KC Royals. This kid was rushed to the majors on a bad team. It got to him badly. Maybe being traded to the Braves would help him get back on track. Not having to be the #1 starter and get some backing. I have not heard much about him in a while. But, at one time he had a lot of potential. He could turn out to be the Brandon Phillips of 2007.
By Billy (TBFKB)
December 7, 2006 01:39 PM | Link to this
Phat Phalcon,
Did we ever leave fantasy world?
By Tom-a-hah
December 7, 2006 01:40 PM | Link to this
Hey - if the Mariners had a bunch of prospects, I guess you could call them a Seattle slew!
Speaking of this guy Figgins, I’m a big fan. You might say that I’m a real chone-head.
By Brooklyn Braves Brawler
December 7, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this
I’m okay with letting Prado leadoff next year. I would like to have a legit leadoff guy but there aren’t a whole lot of reasonable option out there right now.
I’m a heavy LaRouche basher and I’m willing to trade him to upgrade the speed and athleticism on the team. If Larouche was in that Baldelli package then i say do it. I am comfortable with either Thorman of Kelly Johson playing 1B.
By The Grinch
December 7, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this
Actually, Myron, I’d love to see Buscemi playing Bond; that would be beyond hilarious.
Hillbilly, you’re not a dopehead? Oh, well; you’re still a pretty good guy I guess. :-)
Off to the gym.
By Chad
December 7, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this
DOB
Still don’t get why Giles would ever be non-tendered? Certainly some team out there would like to trade for him and not have to compete on the insane free agent market that is this offseason.
Or, alternatively, why not offer him a contract that he’s likely to get in arbitration (maybe a bit lower) but which would be far less than on today’s free agent market? He wouldn’t sign, but at least he wouldn’t be non-tendered and we’d still have him to shop…
Or am I missing something?
By jjgrogan
December 7, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this
O’Brien……..thanks for the GREAT updates and comments. Love to read every one, keep up the GREAT reports!!
By Big Daddy
December 7, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this
DOB,
Perhaps you could repost those salary numbers you put up on that other blog yesterday. If these guys have a calculator they could add the salaries of the highest paid 7 or 8 players and see that there is no $5 or $6 million left to pay to Giles. It simply isn’t there.
I don’t know what Ward wanted but by not signing him they may well be able to keep Giles where with Ward they would have had to non tender Giles. It is that close with the budget and budgets are made to be followed. It isn’t John S’s money he’s spending.
There are people on this blog who can’t even understand the principal of pro-ration. Hampton’s salary has been partially written off over the years and his hit against the budget is not $14 or $15 million but closer to $9 mil.
Is there a way to filter out all future DEMANDS that Andruw be traded? Damn, just damn. I am so tired of reading that crap. Andruw says he is not going anywhere and HE HAS THE SAY SO ON THAT TOPIC.
John S. and Bobby have done their usual good work (other than last year when they went with Reitsma as closer) and I fully expect them to be in the chase from day one in ‘07. With Soriano and Wickman Smoltz is assured of at least 5 more wins next year. That will make him the biggest bargain in all of baseball.
By braves1us
December 7, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this
Hey guys… I’m a Braves fan living in the Northwest… Because TBS has made life miserable for me, I am now following the Mariners much more closely… JS stole this one, and Bill Bavasi is a bafoon… the Mariners could have received much more for this, but they are desperate… they let Moyer go, can’t stand Meche and Pinerio is a gas can… so, they basically have three opening in their rotation… and, despite having money to spend they tried playing hardball with Schmidt and Adam Eaton (two guys from the Seattle area)- and despite saying they wanted to come home they ended up elsewhere… the Mariners are desperate and JS took advantage of him… Soriano is a stud… DOB says 91-95 - but, I’ve seen him regularly in 96-98 range. When he’s on (more times than not) he’s unhittable. About once every two weeks he’ll have a meltdown, but he’s mostly on and a stud. A great addition for the Braves. And, just in time because this trade will probably be Bavasi’s last… the bafoon will be looking for work soon.
By Carolina Lady
December 7, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this
It was reported that Hampton offered to restructure his contract to free up some money for Glavine. OK. The team is a few million short of what it needs to keep and re-sign people. Why not take Hampton up on his offer? Seems like it would help the situation. :-)
By Serge
December 7, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this
Prado isnt a legit leaddoff guy, hell hes not a legit major leauger. Hes not real good and the dropoff from Marcus to him will be inmense.
By Big Daddy
December 7, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this
To trade Giles another team must have the following:
A solid need for a second baseman, (one the Braves no longer want).
They must have $5-6 million available to pay him.
They must have someone who they are willing to throw into the mix but he is not likely to be anyone important.
If the shoe was on the other foot would the Braves trade a GOOD PLAYER for a throw away second baseman knowing they are going to have to pay that second baseman $5-6 million? I don’t think so. That is 7% of the Braves’ total payroll, it ain’t chopped liver.
And remember about half of all teams have a lower budget than the Braves.
By When in Rome
December 7, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this
What does it mean to “non-tender” a player? Does he become a FA?
By chip
December 7, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this
People in my line of work have a saying: “When the ark is sinking, throw out the elephants first.”
The Braves payroll is sinking them. They