Braves

By Tomahawkin

November 27, 2006 01:21 AM | Link to this

Matthews, is very flashy…Thats the only way he got that phat contract…

The halos will trade him by year 3 of that contract, and eat up half of his salary…What a dumb move on the Angels part…

By futurebravesgm2413

November 27, 2006 01:23 AM | Link to this

DOB, you wrote an enjoyable blog. I agree with you the possibility of AJ getting traded. Seems that too many things have to do right for that to happen. One question. Lets say AJ leaves after 07. Depending on the market/trade options/minor league depth is it possible that Francoeur could be the starting CF in 08 season? Also, DOB, have you seen the 2 “If I was the GM” on the Braves page of scout.com? One was written by Shanks. Both seem to have a wild imagination. Check it out if you have time. Thanks for the blog.

By futurebravesgm2413

November 27, 2006 01:33 AM | Link to this

I left out the point that the 2 “If I was the GM” on the braves page on scout.com are articles. Sorry for the confusion.

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 01:36 AM | Link to this

DOB, you’re a prince among fools. Though you p-d me off by posting this with no warning after I made a lengthy post on the last blog. Stinky, it was mainly for you; check it out.

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 02:23 AM | Link to this

Stinky: In theory, yes. But who can ultimately account for taste? I’m a Scots-Irish-Welsh-Dutch-German with a touch of Creek/Cherokee kind of guy, and I like vodka. Go Figure. :-)

I must add that I truly love good Scotch, and Jameson’s/Old bushmill’s/Michael Collins, and Dutch/German beer, and aged Kentucky Bourbon/Tennessee whiskey as well. Don’t even bring up the bagpipes. We’re all mutts and bastards; who cares? Diord Fionn!

There; now nobody has to wait five minutes for the post (like anyone would…:-))

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 02:35 AM | Link to this

‘night, all; looks like I’m actually going to have to work tommorrow. D’oh!

By Drummerdad

November 27, 2006 03:48 AM | Link to this

I’d be surprised if Tom Glavine returns to the Braves. This decision seems to have grandstanding mixed with the family desires issue. I’m not sure what the overall Braves fans sentiment will be if he’s pitching with the tomahawk next year. The temperature seems a little cool to me. The one thing that he would bring to the table would be the element of mental toughness he could pass on to younger players. Of course, that mental toughness passed on may be how a young player can tell Schuerholz to jump in the lake when the young fella is ready to leave. I confess, I’m jaded and skeptical.

By elbravox

November 27, 2006 05:00 AM | Link to this

Maddux wants a 2 year/22 million contract. Fools gold.

By Bravo Nam

November 27, 2006 06:39 AM | Link to this

DOB

Thanks for putting in the effort to put up a new blog. It’s been an incredibly boring week for Braves fans- you at least tried to squeeze blood out of a stone that had nothing- A+ for effort.

Grinch

The Falcs got a lot of coverage and criticism in relation to their offensive line problems- which have been bad- but what about our defense- surprisingly bad- John Abraham didn’t record one stat. CBs apart form Hall suck…Crocker has been a crock of s*…Milloy has sucked in the pass…you were right about Vick, unfair to heavily criticize a guy when your offensive line is crap and your receivers worse!

Robert

Bouquets for making a big effort in not talking about Cox- despite a number of people baiting you and trying to get you sucked in- great stuff.

Well, apart from sending out a couple of props and a discussion on the Falcs, must say I’m totally flat with the lack of noise the Braves have made, the heartless efforts of the Falcons, and the bad luck and bad play of the Hawks and Thrashers…this is certainly the right time for a JJS- oh the humanity…or simply…awwww shiiiiiiiiiiiiit!

By Kudzu

November 27, 2006 06:57 AM | Link to this

Thank God, something to read about other than the football wanabes in Atlanta.

I’m like you, I sure wished we could get some positive Braves news.

AJ has been great for Atlanta, but NO WAY you can tie up that kind of money on one player. DONT DO IT. Let’s kiss him goodbye and develop some more great young players. Nothing against AJ personally, (no middle fingers) but it’s all about money and smart finances.

I’ll never forget all the great center field moments of AJ tracking down a ball at full speed and laying it all out for the catch and most of his team and the fans left shaking their heads. Thank you AJ for great memories.

By Doug

November 27, 2006 06:58 AM | Link to this

Nah DOB, it was a good blog red-eye flight haze and all.

As much as I would like Glavine to return … I would much rather see the Braves to trade Giles and a shaky Hudson and even Davies to free up money to bid on Kei Igawa from the Hanshin Tigers … I can’t believe the Braves have said they would pass on this guy. I live in Tokyo (two baseball seasons and one more here before I leave) and while not a Hanshin fan, I have seen him pitch a few times against the Tokyo Yakault Swallows (another great team BTW). The kid can put up some serious numbers. He would make a great starter. Davies totally imploded on his rehab in the majors … at the minimum he needs to go back to Richmond … not starting on the Braves mound. Igawa would be a great replacement for him.

Also, Hanshin isn’t like the bankrupt Seibu group. They aren’t going to be holding out for an insane bid like the Red Sox offered on their post (can you say “we’re just blocking you so you don’t go to the Yanks?”). Hanshin just wants to see him succeed in the majors. The Braves should really take another look at him. He has really got good stuff.

By Nikki

November 27, 2006 07:45 AM | Link to this

I would love to see Glavine back in a braves uniform. Any other way is just wrong.

By Kevin

November 27, 2006 07:57 AM | Link to this

Thanks for the blog, DOB. Can you point me in a direction where I can see the Braves’ current salaries for 2007? Specifically, I’m interested to see what all the starters are slated to make, especially Mike “The Hamper” Hampton.

By Greg

November 27, 2006 07:59 AM | Link to this

This year it would seem to make sense to give Gregor Blanco the LF/leadoff spot so that he can be ready to shift to CF in the spring of 2008.

By Metropolitan Man

November 27, 2006 08:02 AM | Link to this

Lets see, school starts the day after Labor day in NY and ends in June. Schools starts in early August and ends in May in the ATL area. Glavine using his kids as an excuse sucks. If he plays in NY, his kids see him play up until Labor Day if they go to school in NY. If they stay here they will see him play less. I no longer feel it is a family issue anymore than him banking on which team will make the playoffs. Baseball is a funny game and the best team on paper doesnt always win. So Glavine, I hope you pick the right team, but spare us the soap opera, you WERE that good, not anymore.

By dadgum

November 27, 2006 08:07 AM | Link to this

DOB….first, congrats to Kansas. Had to be fun watching that one. In Vegas to boot.

You queried in the last part of the blog stating that it is highly unlikely Andruw will be traded prior to ‘07. Given what has transpired with Carlos Lee last week in Houston I think the likelihood of a trade and sign deal with Andruw is now more of a possibility. All the big dollar bats are gone off the free agent market for the most part. If a team approaches Atlanta about Jones and the deal is workable (Meaning Andruw would approve) I think Andruw would make the move.

Right now Andruw is sort of playing Russian Roulette if he stays with the Braves in ‘07. Too much talent but if he gets hurt or has a bad year his stock goes down. With the money flying around this year, Andruw would be wise to accept a trade and immediately sign a contract extension of the order he would be commanding next year anyway (100 mil +). Of course this assumes the team contacting the Braves is a team he would want to play for. I do feel that Team Disney or the Dodgers or Houston, even having already signed top dollar players, would still want Andruw. Boras is probably telling him to wait however so we will see.

By Shaun

November 27, 2006 08:14 AM | Link to this

Robert, The Grinch and whoever else,

To continue our debate:

The point of the link I posted on the last blog was to show you that Baseball America, over the last 16 years, has done an excellent job with their prospect rankings. Rarely do they rank a hitter in their top 18 that flames out. Yes, it’s possible; they have missed on a few. But I would guess, without doing a detailed calculation, that over 90 percent of the hitters they rank in the top 18 become good major league players.

Therefore, the odds of Saltalamacchia, who Baseball America ranked as the 18th best prospect in baseball in 2006, becoming a good major league player are great. Of course it’s not a sure thing, but I would argue that the chances of him becoming better than Crawford within a few years are pretty darn high. And Salty is going to be cheaper in a few years, is always going to be younger than Crawford and is likely to be better.

All that said, would I trade Crawford straight up for Salty? No, because I could probably get more and there is a slight possibility of him flopping.

Robert, I think you assume that the odds are against every single prospect; your opinion of Salty (and maybe other prospects) is that they must prove themselves in the big leagues, as you’ve said. But it’s not true. If a player proves himself enough to be ranked in the top 18 in Baseball America’s prospect rankings, the odds of that player becoming a good major leaguer are pretty high, probably over 90 percent.

Another reason to start with Salty in a package in a Crawford trade (if a Crawford trade were an actual possibility) is that Salty’s stock is likely to rise next season. So if I’m the D-Rays I want to get him while he’s slightly under the radar so I don’t have to give up as much.

Yes, Crawford is a good player to have because he’s solid and cheap right now. But so is Saltalamacchia. And Salty is going to be cheaper for longer, he’s very likely to be better, and he’s younger.

The easiest way to find the list of Baseball America top 100 prospects 1990-2005 is to do a Google search—“Baseball America top 100 prospects all time.” That will bring the list right up.

By the way, of those catchers I listed, all of them became above average major leaguers except Ben Davis, and he had health problems. Everyone one of them except for Davis, I would argue, were better in their primes than Crawford has been.

By WedgieBoy

November 27, 2006 08:17 AM | Link to this

Good one.

By Jeff

November 27, 2006 08:24 AM | Link to this

Why wouldn’t a team that wants Andruw long term not try to cut a deal with the Braves this winter? Any other team serious about Jones knows what the market is for him and realize that they’d have to give him a deal proximate to what he wants. But that’s better than trying to outbid other teams in the winter of 2007. And why wouldn’t Andruw leave this winter if 1) a team he likes makes a play for him; 2) he gets what he wants now rather than later? 2007 may be a great year for him offensively, but what if there’s a fall off in his numbers, or he’s injured? A bird in hand…

By Weasel

November 27, 2006 08:31 AM | Link to this

I guess Davida O’BrainPhart won’t be stinkin’ up the blog griping about people using multi idents now that he’s fessed up hisself.

By Earl

November 27, 2006 08:38 AM | Link to this

They’re reporting that the Orioles are going to get Baez. We’re gonna get a draft pick for him, right?

By Robert

November 27, 2006 08:43 AM | Link to this

“Yes, Crawford is a good player to have because he’s solid and cheap right now. But so is Saltalamacchia. And Salty is going to be cheaper for longer, he’s very likely to be better, and he’s younger.”

My six year old cousing is the 14th best prospect in his Little League. He’ll sign for 300K a year, and he’s WAY younger than Crawford OR Salty. Wanna trade?

As a major leaguer, Salty is not solid, or sure, or anything else. All he is at this point is a prospect.

Keep your shiny nickles. I like my quarter

By Shaun

November 27, 2006 09:04 AM | Link to this

Robert,

Again, you are assuming that all prospects are the same. But a high school prospect is not the same as Baseball America’s #18; even you have to admit that. Sure, Salty is just a prospect, if the 18th best prospect in baseball is just a prospect.

You need to go back and look at Baseball America’s track record and you’ll see that the likelihood of Salty making something of himself is pretty good.

Salty will probably be in the majors maybe by the end of the 2007 season or in 2008 (if there is a spot for him). The Devil Rays aren’t going to compete with the Yankees or Red Sox anytime soon. If they could get the 18th best prospect in baseball and two or three more young players, they would be stupid not to do it. (Ain’t going to happen—the Braves aren’t going to give up that much for Carl Crawford, I hope.)

(Robert, are you really Dusty Baker? With your disdain for young players, sure seems like it.)

By Shaun

November 27, 2006 09:10 AM | Link to this

Robert,

Would you want to be the GM that did not acquire Saltalamacchia, Horacio Ramirez, Davies, Escobar and maybe more for Carl Crawford (if that trade were even a possibility)? I guess you would. I know I wouldn’t. And I guarantee you almost any GM in baseball would take that trade in a heartbeat (again, if a trade like that was even possible, which I don’t think it is).

By Rip

November 27, 2006 09:22 AM | Link to this

Boy, have times changed. Everyone used to want to play for the BRAVES but now nobody wants to… can’t sign free agents, can’t make a deal anymore, the AOL Times Warner is doing the same sh%# it put on the Hawks. Everyone knows JS wants more for his used cars than there worth. AJ will hold the 10-5 no trade to help his self at the expense of the Braves. While the Braves sleep all the other teams are getting better. Better get ready for a longgggg winter and season with no major moves if any. Same old story over and over. The fans don’t have much to look forward to except paying more to see less.

By VaBravesfan

November 27, 2006 09:27 AM | Link to this

I always hated seeing Glavine and Maddux, among others, playing in another uniform. It will be equally tough watching Andruw on another team, regardless of what kind of numbers he puts up. After reading about the salaries some of these mediocre players are getting, there is no telling what he will get. By the way, Baez just signed with the Orioles-3 years, $19 million.

By Bravo Nam

November 27, 2006 10:52 AM | Link to this

Earl

Braves won’t get a draft pick for Baez coz the Braves didn’t offer him arbitration.

Latest is that it looks as though Randy Wolf could be signing with the Dodgers…and still no news on the Braves.

By Robert

November 27, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this

Shaun

1.Salty is a good prospect

2.All prospects are not the same

3 -“Would you want to be the GM that did not acquire Saltalamacchia, Horacio Ramirez, Davies, Escobar and maybe more for Carl Crawford (if that trade were even a possibility)? “

In a word, YES! First of all, the words “Kyle Davies” and “good player” must never be used in the same sentence unless there is a capitalized negative in there somewhere -

For example - Kyle Davies is NOT a good player

Are you really Mama Davies in disguise?

Why dont we insult the Devil Rays intelligence further and throw Cox into the trade offer

Keep responding. I need a reason to post and wont get to 75 unless I hurry

By Bo

November 27, 2006 10:58 AM | Link to this

Good for Baez-90 plus saves before going to LAD and Braves as set up man mostly. Hope the Braves don’t regret letting him go. Good Luck!

By Lew

November 27, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

Hudson’s looking cheaper and cheaper, even at $13.5 million per year, after the Baez signing. It’s really gotten out of hand and weill likely get much worse. Shaun-Please, Dude-no matter what your jusitfication, Crawford is not going to be playing for the Braves (whether traded for Salty or whomever), so please quit trying to convince everyone what a great deal it would be (for whomever). Like Robert on BC, by now everyone either knows your opinion or has given theirs, or doesn’t give a flying (whatever). Maybe it’s time to go back to convincing people that Coco Crisp the Cereal Guy is worthwhile (or not).

By Lew

November 27, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

Bo-It’s not a matter of letting Baez go. He wants to be a closer and that wouldn’t have happened with the Braves, as Wicky is the closer. I think JS can find a set up guy for a lot less than $6.3 million. Can anyone say John Thomson? When healthy (which he is now), Thomson has pitched quite well for the Braves. It has been reported that he would be willing to sign for less $$ with the Braves (he made $4.5mil). I think he would be very effective just having to go one inning at a time.

By Shaun

November 27, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

Robert,

It’s way too early to judge Kyle Davies. He’s still about 5 years from his prime.

And I don’t know if you would be a GM for long if you wouldn’t give up one player for four or more quality young players if your team isn’t likely to contend anytime soon.

Lew,

Actually, read more carefully. I think it would be a horrible deal if the Braves give up some of their prize prospects for Crawford. And I’m not the one who brought up Crawford’s name. I’m just responding to Robert who would not give up Crawford for four solid young players (if such a trade were possible). Read my posts more carefully—I believe Saltalamacchia will be more valuable than Crawford fairly soon. Trading for Crawford is pointless, in my book.

By Yawn__

November 27, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

DOB: Thanks for the new blog. It’s just enough to hold us over.

Baez signs as a set up man for 3 years/19 million. I thought he wanted to be a closer?

My six year old cousing is the 14th best prospect in his Little League. He’ll sign for 300K a year, and he’s WAY younger than Crawford OR Salty. Wanna trade?
Well argued. Your point has been proven so soundly with this statement.

Payne: so, how does this all work with Renteria and Marte? As I recall, Marte was a top 18 prospect, I think he was actually a top 10 but can’t be sure. Marte was traded for Renteria PLUS cash. I can’t see TB trading Crawford for one guy though. It’d take a little more than that. But trading all star caliber players straight up for highly ranked minor leaguers is not unheard of or impossible.

By Matthew

November 27, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this

Well, my Braves aren’t making any noise, the Hogs lost a close one to LSWho, and my legs are killing me from walking around War Memorial Stadium in Little Rock trying to find a ticket to the game for my brother-in-law. But AR is headed your way ATL, and I hope its okay that for this week, we’ve renamed it Hoglanta.

I’d like to see Glavine return, and I hate that Andruw is going to walk. However, nothing I say can impact what happens, so I’ll stay home watching the ACC/Little Ten Challenge on ESPN this week, and wait for the BBALL Hogs to crank it up again this weekend.

Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving, and that you could fit into your work clothes this morning.

Go Braves!

By Shaun

November 27, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this

Yawn,

I’m not sure what you’re saying.

Here’s the argument in a nutshell: Robert says he wouldn’t take a guy ranked the 18th best prospect and several other young players for one solid player. I’m saying Robert would be crazy not to take that. And I’m saying the Braves wouldn’t give up that much for Crawford nor is he worth giving up that much for. I’m not arguing for or against a Crawford trade or who he should be traded for. I’m just saying if I’m the D-Rays GM and I’m offered Salty, Davies, Ramirez, Escobar and maybe more for Crawford, I’m doing it, unlike Robert who wouldn’t do it.

By jamie

November 27, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

you lost me at las vegas.

By TennesseePaul

November 27, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this

DOB: Not bad for an airport rush job. Thanks for all the hard work, even on vacation. The dedication is un-matched. I saw you posted yesterday that Guy was retiring. Good luck to him. I liked his articles. His blogs left something to be desired though.

So where is the list of candidates for Giles? Cardinals and Padres both need second basemen. Any chance we ship Giles to St. Louis for Wainwright? How about Renteria and Hudson to the O’s for Tejada? I need to wake up now.

offered Salty, Davies, Ramirez, Escobar and maybe more for Crawford, I’m doing it, unlike Robert who wouldn’t do it
Sounds like one of the worst trades ever from a Braves standpoint.

By Stinky

November 27, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

Grinch, you’re actually an American who likes Vodka in the 21st century. I’m assuming that Bond was a Scot born and bred and raised on the local hooch 50 or 60 years ago. I never read the books, so I may very well be missing some more info.

Oh, and I got it that Dobert was using another id. I stated as much last night. It was pretty funny, actually. Of course, now, If I choose, I can start obsessing about the pot calling the kettle black. (Make that the not so straight pot calling the strictly hetero kettle black.)

Some of the other reactions to Just Curious’ posts were telling as well.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 27, 2006 12:23 PM | Link to this

like an otter on a seal blog …

By Shaun

November 27, 2006 12:27 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

I agree, offered Salty, Davies, Ramirez, Escobar and maybe more for Crawford is one of the worst trades in Braves history. I would do it if I was the D-Rays but Robert would not. That’s my point. Robert says the Braves wouldn’t get Crawford for all those player and my argument was no GM would turn that down.

I probably wouldn’t trade Salty straight up for Crawford.

By Shaun

November 27, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this

TennPaul,

Thanks for jumping on my side in my argument against Robert.

See Robert, I’m not the only one who thinks the Salty, Davies and others for Crawford would be ridiculously good for the D-Rays and bad for the Braves.

By Yawn__

November 27, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this

No point really. Just thought I’d toss out the great Renteria Trade of ‘05.

By Greg in TN

November 27, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the update DOB. Things appear to be shaking out much like many suspected and at least how JS warned earlier.

Lew, your point on Baez and Thomson are right on. I’d be willing to look at Thomson for less $$$ and at set up. I know that was the plan for this year before injuries took their toll.

As far as Glavine, it is really cut and dried with me. I appreciate everything the man has done for the franchise, but while he was in NYC, he was the enemy, just like Furcal is in LA, just like Sheffield was when he moved to NYC. Nothing personal, that’s just how I roll. I do want to see former ATL players do well on their future teams, but not at our expense. Having said that, if he decides to come back, I am fine with it and will support him as I did when he was in a Braves uniform.

I agree with everyone that says AJ is gone. It’s a shame, but that’s the economics of the situation. The free agent market this year is silly, and it will only get worse next year, at least when you have Bora$ involved as we do with AJ. I think JS will do what he can, however his hands will be tied with TW and most likely with Liberty. I know payroll will not go down, however I will be curious to see what Liberty plans to do beyond 2007, assuming they don’t then turn around in short order and sell the team.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 27, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

whoa! there goes another one! whoa! another! imagine the little mind that is stinky’s as he tries to conjure up conspiracy theories. stinky sees dob behind every post. whoa! that one was close! was that jimmy smith? there is no conspiracy, stalker-boy. just pure distaste. dob said it best, no one likes you. certainly this journalist is unimpressed. which personna will you use next? maybe stinky should try matching wits somewhere better suited to stinky’s “limitations” - and they are many. now, everyone, watch the fake jimmy smith posts begin to appear. and a letter, stinky, be sure and write a letter. “oh, lonely days are gone, journalist will be right home, stinky, she wrote me a letter …”

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this

Yes, Braves will get compensation for Baez if the Orioles sign him before the Dec. 1 (Friday) deadline for teams to offer arbitration to their players who became free agents. Seems silly for the Orioles not to wait until Friday, since it’s apparent Braves aren’t going to offer him arbitration and risk him accepting it and the big salary that would come with it. But they are the O’s, after all. Not exactly known for sound decisions.

By TennesseePaul

November 27, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this

Well, it’s not hard to see your point. It’s a terrible trade, but the D-Rays would have to be fools not to take it. Terrible trade. Trade away half of your potential future starting rotation and at least a quarter of your future starting line up for one guy, (shaking my head). Hopefully it will never be offered. Well, if a trade of that caliber is made, I hope it’s the Mets sending down more Scott Kazmir’s for even lesser players than Crawford. Had the Mets been on their game, they could have sent Reyes, Wright, and Mildege for the former WNBA player the Rays used to have. But alas the Dodgers shipped a grip of their prospects to Tampa for him and he was promptly removed from the starting rotation and sent to the pen. Guess the Mets missed out on that one.

By Shaun

November 27, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this

Yawn,

I think the Renteria trade was pretty good for both teams involved.

Robert thinks the Braves would get the better end of a Salty, Davies, Ramirez, Escobar for Crawford trade, from what I understand. I think the D-Rays would get the better end of that deal by far. That’s the basic disagreement here for anyone who wants to jump in.

By Robert

November 27, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

Shaun - you have a true talent for conveniently misquoting folks

The trade you propose is NOT four quality young players for one solid player

The trade you propose is one solid AA propsect, one other decent prospect, one completely mediocre journeyman starter, and one young pitcher who will be happy on the day he becomes as good as mediocre, for one solid, AND HIGHLY UNDERSALARIED major league player

These past two statements are VERY DIFFERENT.

If you want to continue this discussion based on the second, correct, assessment of the situation, fine

I wont answer further anything that you say based on the first, and INCORRECT assessment of the proposed trade

Thank you and good day

By Shaun

November 27, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this

Let’s see, Robert thinks Bobby Cox is one of the worst managers ever, thinks that the 18th best prospect in baseball is just another prospect, thinks a team wouldn’t/shouldn’t (if they could) give up one solid player for the 18th best prospect and several other solid young players.

By TennesseePaul

November 27, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

DOB: I have a question. If I’m not mistaken, in the new labor agreement, the rating of players was changed. Now there is no longer a C level, it’s just A and B. I believe the compensation was altered as well for the A and B type players. Does this new agreement affect this deal, or does it go into affect 1/1/07 or something like that? And secondly, how much compensation would Baez pull in? I can’t imagine he’s an A type player after last season. I guess a follow up question would be, can an A type player have a horrid season and be marked down to a B type, or does it take more than 1 season to change the type rating?

By Robert

November 27, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

“I’m just responding to Robert who would not give up Crawford for four solid young players (if such a trade were possible).”

Yes I would give up Crawford for four solid young players if such a trade were proposed.

I’d do it for TWO as a matter of fact

McCann and Francoeur gets you Crawford.

Deal?

By Shaun

November 27, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this

Robert thinks the Braves would get the better end of a Salty, Davies, Ramirez, Escobar for Crawford trade, from what I understand. I think the D-Rays would get the better end of that deal by far. That’s the basic disagreement here for anyone who wants to jump in.

This all started, I think, when Robert suggested the D-Rays wouldn’t give up Crawford for all those players. I, of course, disagreed with him saying if the D-Rays were offered that much they would and should take it. (Of course I know the Braves would and should never offer this much for Crawford and I know the D-Rays wouldn’t dream of turning it down if they did.)

For the record, I think the Braves should stay away from Crawford unless they can get him for an average or below average player, which isn’t going to happen.

By Stinky

November 27, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

like an otter on a seal blog …

Jimmy Smith, you are such a card. How do you come up with those colorful metaphors. You really are a hoot. Keep up the good work.

And if Stinky was wrong about the “conspiracy”, well, then Stinky was just had. If nothing else, it was a clever play by someone. I got a laugh out of it.

By Shaun

November 27, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this

Robert,

You would not give up Crawford for Salty, Davies, Ramirez and Escobar, right?

By TennesseePaul

November 27, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this

This AJ business bums me out. I would have liked to see him signed this offseason. But that isn’t going to happen. Plus, it wouldn’t be a good move for either the Braves or AJ. A massive contract like AJ could command would make it hard to build a winning team around him. (something I don’t think a lot of players think about when they sign these things). I know JS has said the pending sale has hampered nothing, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the pending sale has prevented JS from signing 100+ million dollar contracts. In AJ’s case, if he were to take a home town discount and sign this winter, he could potentially take a smaller deal than he could get next winter. It’s unknown what Liberty is going to do. I’ve seen the posts lamenting the sale as if it automatically means payroll is going to be cut to 15 million. Nothing in Liberties profile of sports managment suggests this. It is just as likely, if not more probable, that Liberty notches the payroll up a little bit. In this case, AJ could still take a home town discount, but the discount wouldn’t have to be as steep. But even then I have my doubts. I think AJ is just looking for the money now. I hope for the best though and I look forward to him having his Boras Monster season in 2007.

By beachcomber

November 27, 2006 01:40 PM | Link to this

DOB - Thanks for some fresh grist. It’s lonely down here in Florida with only the St. Pete Times to rely on for daily baseball news. You can only read so much about the Devil Rays.I must agree with you - there are too many factors against Tommy G. coming back to the Braves - which means he will sign with us an hour after I post this.

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this

I gotta agree with Robert. I would also trade Crawford straight up for 4 quality young players. Or two. Of the bunch, Salty and Escobar may or may not pan out. Shaun, you say Salty is 90% likely to be a good major leaugue player. Ok. What’s the percentage of Crawford doing the same? See what I’m getting at? And Ramirez, from one start to the next he’s just as likely to fling his arm up over the backstop into the stands with the ball still in hand as turn in a quality start. You never really know; it’s like watching a chick try to drive. Davies. Have you even watched this guy pitch? I mean, before I’d start rattling off how likely it is for a guy who pitched pretty good in the minors, then came up and pitched about as bad as anyone can in the majors, tore his groin off the bone, came back healthy and pitched even worse and now can’t even pitch effectively in the minors anymore becoming a “Quality player” I’d go back over some game tape.

Et tu, TennPaul? All I got to say is that if HoRam and Davies are “half our future rotation,” and Salty and Escobar are “a quarter of our starting lineup” of the future, then we’ve got a mighty good chance of resembling the D-Rays more than trading with them.

By Jamie in Richmond

November 27, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

The Betemit/Aybar,Baez trade has been touched on many times and I know the majority of you are already set in your opinion of the move. But the signing(albeit inevitable) of Baez with another team- B’more- has brought it back into the foreground again. Essentially the deal wound up being Wilson for Aybar straight up. Betemit wasnt exactly strapping the team for cash by any means. And so we moved a guy who’s PROVEN that he can step in for the oft injured Chipper at third, can also play SS and 2nd in a pinch and is thought of so highly as an athlete that other teams like the Yankees even considered acquiring him for 1st base duty. We moved him for a guy who has less experience, less power, no real distinguishable speed, and the inability to play SS in a pinch. If Betemit had been barking about playing time, I’d listen to the argument to move him. But the fact was he’d gone on the record as saying how he wanted to play his entire career in Atl and was willing to wait his turn. Those who arent as upset with this move as I am will point out that Aybar is more apt to play 2nd base (yet we’ve got Prado, Escobar, and others waiting in the wings) and that Aybar is a potential leadoff option (are you kidding me? His swing makes Giles’ look like a short stroke) and that Aybar is a few years younger (does it matter if he’s not yet as good?). I’m not about to say that this move will in any way cost us pennants down the line or anything to that degree. But what I will say is that, to me, its one of the most perplexing moves JS has ever made, to give up on a guy that the organization has waited on year after year after year- and when he finally develops and when you know Chipper may very well only play 100 in 07 anyway, you move the guy. I didnt get it then, I don’t get it now, and while its a moot point at this time, its something that I felt is worthy of one more discussion. DOB, potential-wise, where does Aybar rank with Braves officials among the other 2nd base prospects we have (Prado, Escobar, and Holt, assuming my memory serves correct and he’s also a 2nd baseman)??? Thanks…

By Shaun

November 27, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this

The Grinch,

I hope you mean if you had Crawford you would trade him for those four players. I’d rather have those four than just Crawford if I’m the D-Rays GM. I don’t know how you could argue one player is better than four especially when one is one of the best prospects in baseball, a switch-hitting catcher.

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

Actually, regarding Baez, the Braves would get TWO draft picks from Orioles, because Baez is a “Type A” free agent.

By Greg in TN

November 27, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

Hey TennPaul, agree with you on the short term impacts of Liberty on the payroll. It will not go down, and I think we can expect a modest bump up in terms of what gets pushed into the hands of JS. How much of a bump it is and how much of that could be attributed to an offer to AJ is what we’ll find out eventually. I would think a conservative estimate of what Liberty might do is an increase in the 8 - 12 mil/year neighborhood. It’ll be an interesting offseason from that perspective.

By Shaun

November 27, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

The Grinch,

I wish I could make some bets with you and Robert. I think I could make a lot of money—Salty will be much more valuable than Crawford in the near future. All four of those players combined will be much more valuable than Crawford within 5 years.

I want you to think about me and Carl Crawford when Saltalamacchia is in the big leagues tearing it up within the next few years.

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 02:17 PM | Link to this

Just FYI, here’s something I just filed to add to the AP story on Baez:

The Braves would receive two compensatory draft picks from the Orioles if Baltimore signs Baez before a Dec. 1 deadline for teams to offer salary arbitration to their free agents.

Baez is one of 47 free agents in “Type A” _ the classification for the top 30 percent of free agents at each position. Type B free agents cost one compensatory draft pick.

The Braves’ other free agents _ starting pitcher John Thomson, catcher Todd Pratt, outfielder Brian Jordan, outfielder/first baseman Daryle Ward _ are in Type C, which means Atlanta won’t get draft picks if other teams sign them.

The new labor agreement eliminated compensation for Type C free agents.

Ward is the lone Atlanta free agent likely to return to the Braves, who have been negotiating with his agent for several weeks.

By TennesseePaul

November 27, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

Grinch: I’m not about to toss Davies into the trash. He’s had half a season, then an injured season to prove himself. That isn’t enough time for me. I’m going to agree with JS, Wren and all the player development guys. We all see a lot of potential in Davies. Argue if you like about the caliber of pitcher he could turn out to be. But even a fifth starter makes up a portion of the rotation. As for HoRam, I’ll point you to KCs months of analysis. While I agree with KCs perspective of HoRam’s upside, heading into this next season I wouldn’t feel comfortable relying entirely on him; But that topic has been well discussed. So again, even a 4th starter is part of a rotation. Granted, it’s less than half (40%), but it’s close. If you are curious as to who the rest of the rotation is for the future… I’m projecting Smoltz in there for at least another 15 years whether he likes it or not =).
Escobar and Salty, for all intents and purposes could very well be a quarter of our future. But Grinch, I suspect you would have been skeptical 3 years ago had I said something like McCann and Francoeur are a quarter of our future lineup. (I’m not counting the pitchers mind you… 2 of 8 is 1/4). From all that’s been written and said, Escobar and Salty are pretty safe bets to be impact players on the big stage. But we’ll see. I don’t think Crawford is worth that much. Especially after what Marte brought back, not to mention Max Ramirez.

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this

Ok, let’s try this. In the “one player for four” deal, let’s go with football. Team A has Peyton Manning. Ok, maybe Phillip Rivers (a good young quarterback who’s not making what he’s worth yet but lighting it up as a starter and with all indications of being the franchise QB). Team B wants to trade Gus Ferotte (a journeyman QB who’s sometimes good but sometimes not), a late first-round pick (provided it be used on a QB), a 4th rounder (same disclaimer), and Andrew Walter (a young QB who was supposed to be good, but who has done nothing so far but look absolutely godawful). By your logic, you’d say Team A would be stupid not to pull the trigger. Is that a roughly accurate paralell? Because that’s about how it looks to me.

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 02:29 PM | Link to this

Trust me, Shaun, there’s nothing I’d rather do than get you involved in a poker game; the feeling is mutual. And, just like in the game, you might win big. There is a possibility that Davies will actually figure out how to pitch. HoRam might come across a training regimen that keeps him off the DL. Salty and Escobar might be superstars. In that case, sure. But you’d likely be a mighty dissapointed man if you expected it.

By TennesseePaul

November 27, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this

Jamie: The Aybar trade isn’t that perplexing to me. In the long term, it was a straight up trade of an older utility guy with no options for a younger utility guy with options. As a bonus, or what was supposed to be a bonus, a team with bullpen need picked up a bullpen pitcher for the stretch run. Now that the season is over, we have received Aybar and two draft picks for WillyB.

Aybar can hit leadoff by the way. He hits well over .300 in the leadoff spot. It’s one of his more redeeming qualities. He’s a pretty good hitter in general and post trade was a better hitter than Betemit. I’m not sure how eaguer the Braves were to have Betemit ready to go. He was a top ranked guy that flamed out and made the team due to a lack of minor league options. After a season and a half of show casing, JS traded while his value was highest. WillyB isn’t even the future for the Dodgers. They have a kid named LaRoche they’re grooming. Supposed to be pretty good. In the mean time, look for the Dodgers to acquire a few more shortstops to fill needs at third, first, LF, RF, Bullpen and the Starting rotation. Which reminds me, wasn’t Jorge Sosa a shortstop at some point?

By Ben

November 27, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this

FORGET IT!!!!!!!! Let him stay in New York, the traitor. We don’t need him, we have a great starting staff and let the Mets over pay him, not us.

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

10Paul; you’re right. I probably wouldn’t have traded Crawford now for McCann and Francour three years ago. And obviously, I would’ve been wrong. But surely you can’t argue that’s not the exception rather than the rule? Of course it’s a gamble, and if it pays off it pays off big. But if it doesn’t, you’ve traded a piece of the puzzle for a pile of sawdust and that doesn’t make the owner or fans happy.

DOB, Say it ain’t so! Jordan and Pratt aren’t likely to come back? Who’s gonna platoon with LaRoche? Who’s gonna provide veteran leadership for McCann? Oh, the humanity!

By Lew

November 27, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this

DOB- Welcome back Dude. Congratulations on the KU win. They couldn’t have beaten a better team than the Gators. I hate the Gators, being a loyal Dawg. Are you saying in your last post that the Braves have no interest whatsoever in resigning Thomson for a setup role? I would think he would be cheap, if healthy. Do you have any insight into the thought process in regard to him?

By Matthew

November 27, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

If I understand things correctly, the Braves want to upgrade their team (especially in pitching) without spending a lot of money. In looking at the list of unsigned pitchers who might be affordable, I only see one option that might fit what the Braves can afford.

Tony Armas Jr-I know that he is injury prone, but he used to kill the Braves when we played the Expos, and I bet he would be affordable.

I know there is more out there, but I fear that the price is too high for the Braves. I think that they can sign Glavine and Armas (just to continue the thought) and have a rotation of:

1. Smoltz
2. Hampton
3. Glavine
4. James
5. Armas

Package HoRam with Giles and Salty for leadoff help, leave Davies at Richmond with Cormier for depth, and move Thomson into the setup role. I think he’d dig that job, if he can’t get a better offer from another club.

The list of free agents can be found at

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/hotstove/y2006/freeagent_tracker.jsp

By Shaun

November 27, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

Grinch,

Salty is almost certain to be above average to a star. I can pretty much guarantee that. I would put a lot on that. I would put a lot on him becoming a better player than Carl Crawford.

By AZBravoFan

November 27, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this

Maybe I’m missing something here, but don’t the Orioles already have a closer? Is there a problem with Chris Ray? So much for Baez wanting to go somewhere that he can close.

By Robert

November 27, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this

I have never said that Salty was “just another prospect”

I have hinted that Escobar, at this point, is just another prospect

If Davies improves significantly, he could become just (or yet) another prospect

Horacio Ramirez is a warm body who might fill the back of someone’s rotation for a while

To repeat - I would not trade Carl Crawford at his current salary for Salty, Escobar, Davies, and Horam

I WOULD consider trading Carl Crawford at his current salary, for two or more proven quality young major leaguers.

Two or three or five years from now is another story.

IF Salty becomes more valuable than Crawford, or a better bargain than Crawford, at some point in the future, does NOT mean that trade is correct today

Just because one time you had deuces and I had aces and you drew out on me on the river doesnt mean you should bet into aces when you have deuces

You are either

1.Dumb as rocks 2.Or, more likely, just deliberately misrespresenting what I say to be a butthole

Dude - I’d give you Salty, Davies, HoRam, Escobar, Cox, Reitsma, season tickets, and a one night stand with Fabio for Crawford

By Robert

November 27, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

“As for the Braves, I can’t see how they could offer Glavine more than $7-8 mill and a one-year contract, since Smoltz is only making $8 million and it sure wouldn’t look very good to offer Glavine more.”

DOB - I dont quite understand that thought. What one guy signed for a few years back compared to what another guy is offered today reflects the changing marketplace, not their relative abilities as players

By Jamie in Richmond

November 27, 2006 02:53 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul: I appreciate your thoughts, and I realize Betemit had lesser numbers than Aybar did, posttrade. I’m not sure how much you can read into that, and to be fair, some of Wilson’s struggles might have been due to the change in scenery (although, you’ll point out it didnt effect Aybar). Personally, and this is just my view, I just dont like Aybar as a leadoff hitter. Again, just my person taste but I’ve always liked guys in that role who are of the Furcal, Kenny Lofton of old, Juan Pierre of old type…guys who slash the ball, and wreak havoc on the basepaths. To me, he just doesnt fill that role, stereotypically. Your point about trading Wilson at his highest value is a valid one, and for that I can agree. But I think you’ve moved a guy who was an ultimate insurance policy at 3rd for a guy who is being billed as someone who one day me be as good as Betty was in that role. That is what I cant get my mind around. And I know we got Baez in return. But I think it was a totally unecessary trade that didnt better us, and in truth, may not have bettered either side long term. I think Wilson was a really fine fit here, and a wonderful and cheap insurance policy to have at 3rd and SS. I still dont understand the move, but I do appreciate your points…

By TennesseePaul

November 27, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this

Grinch: I’m not a football guy, but here’s my take… No, it wouldn’t be the same. Player development is different in Baseball than it is in football. A switch hitting catcher that hits for power and average, two major league ready pitchers and one highly athletic, energizing hitter. All of these players are AA or above. Putting them at about 1 season from the show; maybe a little more for Salty. All 4 plus more (I believe that was Payne’s trade) for one guy. One guy we don’t need.

By rammerjammer

November 27, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

Re: Leadoff spot

Aybar, although he apparently isn’t in the 2B mix, has done very well in limited “leading off” situations.

2006 (Atl) - .429 OBP in 46 ABs 2006 (LA) - .355 OBP in 28 ABs 2005 (LA) - .500 OBP in 31 ABs

Granted, many of these are likely pinch-hitting situations, but it would seem he has at least earned a shot at setting the table.

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

Shaun, as you know, Crawford is a damn good young player, a proven commodity on an incredibly affordable contract for the next two years (with reasonable options beyond that). Why on earth would the Rays trade him for a guy who MIGHT be very good or even great some day, but so far hasn’t even proven himself above the A-ball level? I mean, you gotta at least do something in Double-A. That first half was alarmingly bad for Salty.

Crawford is an extremely affordable proven performer at the big league level, and you seem surprised that a team wouldn’t want to trade him for an unproven prospect and/or guys with health concerns. That’d be GM suicide, gambling that Salty will become a great player someday, that Escobar or Davies will reach potential, while trading away a guy who is a force NOW and who is affordable for several more years.

By Lew

November 27, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

Matthew-If it were a choice between often injured pitchers (Armas or Horacio), why trade the often injured pitcher you already have? As far as a leadoff hitter, I agree wqith TenPaul-Aybar may get the second base job as opposed to Prado. He would be your leadoff hitter. Both BC and JS have said that a leadoff hitter is not a priority. As far as having someone with blazing speed, Robert adequately pointed out last week that base stealers tend to not steal as much on a BC team. I just don’t see us spending either available cash or trade capital on a leadoff hitter. I think (and JS has said repeatedly), that the money and other assets would be better spent on pitching.

By JJ

November 27, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

Matthew arent you forgetting about Tim Hudson? And Thomson is gone.

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

Uh, Matthew, in your scenario there, you fail to account for Hudson. Where’s he go, Mississippi?

By TennesseePaul

November 27, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

But surely you can’t argue that’s not the exception rather than the rule?

Well I wouldn’t say it’s a rule. But that’s why we have evaluation and rankings of these guys. Some are safer bets than others. Escobar and Salty rank as fairly safe bets. Nothings a given of course. But I don’t see a need to hand these guys away for Crawford. We don’t need him. We could use him. But his presence isn’t going to solve the issues this team has.

By Robert

November 27, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this

Grinch - high five.

Shaun, you’re the guy that once a year wins $1000 at the poker table and struts it like a peacock, temporarily forgetting that you’ve lost taking $100 a week the other 51 weeks a year

You know, truth be told - what DOB said about Boras convincing the Angels to pony up for Andru once Mathews disappoints got me thinking.

There might be a GM or too that would make that kind of deal. Doesnt mean it makes sense.

There’s a reason after all, that some low budget teams find a way to win and some low and high budget teams find ways to lose

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 03:08 PM | Link to this

Robert, you wrote: “DOB _ I dont quite understand that thought. What one guy signed for a few years back compared to what another guy is offered today reflects the changing marketplace, not their relative abilities as players.”

Under normal circumstances, I would agree. But Glavine and Smoltz are some closely linked with Braves. They’re friends, they’ve had similar contributions to Braves, and Smoltz has done it while showing continued loyalty to the team, turning down many millions from Yankees and agreeing to serve as closer with the Braves when they needed him badly (and I know, he eventually got his way and went back to starting, but gave up a lot more money to do that by dropping the $100,000-per-start clause in his old contract and taking a reduced salary for an additional year on his deal.

He hasn’t asked to renegotiate, despite leading the team in innings and wins over the past couple seasons. And he had better numbers than Glavine _ far better _ since Smoltz returned to starting.

He had better numbers than Glav last season, and now you’re going to pay Glavine, who left for a bigger contract four years ago, more in 2008 than Smoltz? I just think it’d be extremely awkward. Regardless of the market now. If Glavine comes back, he and his agent have said it would be despite the money, because he knows he’d get a lot more from Mets.

Well, if that’s the case, the Braves shouldn’t have to pay him more than they’re paying Smoltz, in my opinion.

By TennesseePaul

November 27, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

Jamie: I understand the concern, but WillyB was no 3B. He filled in alright. Aybar did alright as well. I’m not even sure Aybar has officially had a rookie season yet. I think it was a move to procure youth and strength. We are even deeper now up the middle and it’s starting to pan out that up the middle guys are a valuable chips to trade. That might be why ol’ Ned has been hoarding the short stops. I watched WillyA play for the Dodgers in ‘05. He was as clutch as they came that season. It seemed he was always in the middle of a rally. I think he’ll turn out pretty good. If anything, maybe he’ll bring us something good in a trade.

By Matthew

November 27, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

Sorry ‘bout that. I’m still grieving over the Hogs’ loss. Of course Huddy stays.

1. Smoltz
2. Hampton
3. Glavine or Armas
4. Hudson
5. James

Again, I don’t necessarily think that we should go after Armas. My main point was that he seems like the most affordable yet proven starter on the free agent market whose name is not Tom Glavine. If JS wants to improve the pitching, Armas perhaps could help the team at the right price.

JJ, has Thomson already left? I think he’s still around.

DOB, if Hudson’s pitching at Mississippi, please let me know. It’s a lot closer to MS from NE Ark than it is to the ATL.

By Robert

November 27, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

Two major league ready pitchers?

Y’all have lost your frickin tree.

Horacio Ramirez has a K rate of 4.3 per 9. Now, some guys survive in the majors long term with that kind of strikeout rate (Buehrle is a cgood example). But NOT when they have a K/BB ratio of near 1. Ramirez had a fortunate run of 60 innings a few years back that led to a nice looking ERA -

And what part of Davies’ 8 ERA makes you think is even ready to pitch BP in the big leagues? Dude, when he gets up in the bullpen the married men wanna get off the field

“one highly athletic, energizing hitter.”

LOL - what exactly IS that.

Shaun and TP - You guys either sell used cars or promote pyramid schemes for a living. Fess up

By Robert

November 27, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this

DOB - Gotcha - makes sense after you expanded on it a little

Someone give me a post count update

By Shaun

November 27, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

Grinch,

Major problem: Crawford is not equivalent to Payton Manning. Manning is more like Pujols, ARod or Johan Santana; among the greatest players in the game. Crawford is a good young player but he’s not one of the top 10 players in the game.

By Jamie in Richmond

November 27, 2006 03:29 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul: Here’s hoping that you’re right and WillyA turns out to help us, in one way or another.. Good discussion

By Shaun

November 27, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this

O’Brien,

Look at Baseball America’s track record: I would say over 90 percent of all players they rank in the top 18 become good major leaguers. Salty is almost certain to become better than Crawford. Plus you are getting three other guys.

If I’m the D-Rays and I get offered that much for one guy, how could I turn that down considering I’m not going to compete with the Yankees and Red Sox anytime soon? I would think it’s GM suicide if I turn down a four-for-one deal if you are getting that much young talent.

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this

Shaun, I never said Salty wouldn’t be good. I just pointed out that it isn’t a definite yet. The guy hasn’t even made it AAA yet. Crawford is definitely good at the ML level. Big difference to me if I’m a GM.

10Paul; I agree we don’t need Crawford (though it would be nice); I jumped into this scenario after it was posed. I’m just arguing it just as a trade in general. And I still don’t see how you can talk about Salty and Escobar as if they’re already ML all-stars. “A switch hitting catcher who hits for power and average.” Yeah, in A ball. What happened last year when he went to AA? Just because these guys have a cool picture of them jacking one out in BP in last year’s “Chop Talk” alongside a flattering article doesn’t make it so in the bigs. “Two major-league ready pitchers.” HoRam is always ready to go on the DL. Did you just actually say “ML ready” and Davies in the same sentence? While he may or may not be one day, if there’s one thing that everyone who watched the Braves play last year learned above most other things, it’s that Kyle Davies most certainly is not ML ready. Like I said, man; y’all may be right. It just baffles me that you talk about unproven quantities as if they’re proven and that those who don’t see it are foolish.

By Lew

November 27, 2006 03:42 PM | Link to this

Has anyone even bothered to check out the Rays’ website before making all of these proposed trades? Look at the latest edition of the Rays’ Mailbag-The Rays beat writer, in response to a proposed trade of Crawford for Javier Vasquez, all but laughs at the concept. He also refers to Crawford as “the best Rays player ever”. Their VP for Player personnel says they would only trade him for ML ready players (preferably pitchers) and not necessarily even then. I don’t think that anyone mentioned really fits the bill. Why are you all arguing over what is, at best, a moot point for over two days now? There’s got to be something more worthwhile in your lives to discuss without resorting to hypotheticals that bear no resemblance to reality. Go to the source and see for yourselves what THEY (the Rays) think of these absurd ideas.

By dawg_gone_truth

November 27, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

Well here is how I see it, the braves are really going to suck badly this coming season with one of the smallest payroles in MLB, so here is how it should go down:

Right feild Dale Murphy, let him have one season to get to that 400 hr club.

Hank Aaron on First so he can stay ahead of Booby Bonds the juice man

Glavine on the mets so he can throw them the BP ball when they bat so the plan goes well.

Andruw, well heck hate to see him go but at least we won’t have to see him smiling after a strikeout, although I know he is not happy about the out but its just him.

By Greg in TN

November 27, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

Looks like Johnny Estrada is changing zip codes again. I see where he’s going from Arizona to Milwaukee along with RHSP Claudio Vargas and RHRP Greg Aquino. Milwaukee is shipping LHSP Doug Davis and prospects Dana Eveland and OF David Krynzel.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061125&contentid=1745907&vkey=newsmlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Also, the 2007 ballot was released. Gwynn, Ripken and McGwire are all on the ballot. So now we find out if McGwire will get the votes or if he suffers from the backlash. I admit I am torn between whether I would vote on McGwire or not. What does everyone else think?

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 03:53 PM | Link to this

Thank you, Lew. But you’re letting reality getting in the way of fantasy trades. Shame on you.

By berigan

November 27, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this

Shawn, first, I admire your faith in the young players on the farm. But, you are waaay underrating Carl Crawford. Crawford is the fastest guy in baseball. And one of the best leadoff hitters in the game, surely the best i the A.L. In his brief career, he has 227 steals,(One more than Rafael Furcal has at the age of 29) and has been caught only 47 times. He has hit .296 or higher the last 3 years. 81 rbi’s in 2004, 77 in 2005. And he is 25. And plays half of his home games in front of 40,000 empty seats. Image what he would do in front of actual fans rooting for him? I don’t know how you can say Salty will be better than him. Only if he is the next Joe Mauer. What Jerry Crasnick wrote on the 16th….

*Carl Crawford, Tampa Bay One recent rumor had Crawford headed to the White Sox in a deal for Brandon McCarthy. The Devil Rays say there’s zero chance of that happening.

The Rays don’t have to move Crawford because: (1) he’s a 25-year-old monster player and (2) he’s so gosh-darned affordable. Crawford will make $9.25 million over the next two seasons. Then the Devil Rays have two option years worth a total of $18.25 million. That’s why GM Andrew Friedman can afford to ask for the moon. If the Dodgers make a call on Crawford, they’ll probably have to consider Chad Billingsley and Jonathan Broxton as a starting point. The Devil Rays want to stop being perceived as a feeder system for more affluent clubs, and Crawford is as good a place as any to finally draw the line.

In time, that could change. If Evan Longoria and Reid Brignac are ready to man the left side of the infield in 2008, the Rays could move B.J. Upton to left field. They already have Rocco Baldelli in center and Delmon Young in right, and Friedman envisions Elijah Dukes — the talented problem child who’s tearing up the Arizona Fall League — amassing 400 or so at-bats in the outfield and at DH in Tampa Bay next season.

But that’s too many “ifs” for such a bold move. In a year or two, the Devil Rays might be more amenable to moving Crawford. At the moment they have no compelling reason to do so.*

By dawg_gone_truth

November 27, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this

No McGwire, who do you think got Booby hooked on the juice? If you are on the Juice then no! Arron, Ruth, Maris, Mantle were not on the Juice. NO to Sosa, Bonds, and McGwire.

By berigan

November 27, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this

Greg, I feel that if Pete Rose isn’t eligible for the Hall, just because he bet on his team to win and he didn’t use steroids, how can McGuire get in, when we all know he cheated???? Just because it wasn’t proven, doesn’t mean anything, IMHO. And I LOVED watching McGuire hit homers. Just loved it. He really disappointed me.

By Greg in TN

November 27, 2006 04:09 PM | Link to this

Yeah, you have a great point there dawg. Plus McGwire didn’t exactly fess up to anything during his testimony in DC.

By Lew

November 27, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this

DOB-Yeah, that’s me-the Blog spoil sport. Maybe I should borrow Grinch’s tag. I don’t mind discussing fantasy trades, but this line of argument has gone to the extremes of Robert’s diatribes against BC. Both of which are way moot. It’s just time for a new subject of discussion. Have you heard the Clapton/JJ Cale CD? I’m wondering if the collaboration will actually inspire Clapton to do something decent. It’s been a long time since Journeyman and I’m not impressed with much he’s done since then. I just picked up on a really obscure Ian Hunter/ Mick Ronson live cd. It came out not long after Mick played with Dylan’s Rolling Thunder Revue. It’s got some great licks on it, especially a nice instrumental version of FBI-Ronson cooks. Berrigan-Your last post speaks major truth, Dude. Thanks.

By Billy

November 27, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this

nor was Ed Mathews, Paul Richards should have had his A$$ kicked for sending him to Houston.

By Lew

November 27, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this

Berrigan-Let’s not forget the Rays closer, Seth McClung. The kid is 6’5” and throws routinely in the 94-98 mph range. He has been clocked at 102. He has already had Tommy John surgery. This kid has the best “stuff” I’ve seen in a long time. He has great movement on his two and four seamers and a knee buckling curve. If he can learn to control the fastball, he will be devastating. Also, he’s a really good guy. I would love to see him in a Braves’ uniform. He could very well become dominant.

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

Shaun, I agree about the Manning comparison. That’s why in my next sentence I amended it to Philip Rivers. Appropriate, I think.

I’m torn about McGwire, too. Loved him as a player (unlike Bonds or Canseco), but as Pink Floyd would say: “The evidence…before the court is…incontrovertible; there’s no need for the jury to retire…”

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this

Rammerjammer, I just checked out Aybar’s leadoff stats again, and they’re even better than you wrote:

Overall, he’s a .292 career hitter with a .387 OBP, 26 doubles, five homers, 40 RBIs in 105 games (329 at-bats) in the majors.

From the No. 1 spot in the order, he’s hit .331 (49-for-148) with 11 doubles, two HRs, 14 RBIs, 22 walks, 19 K and a .421 OBP and .867 OPS.

Pretty startling numbers, huh? I know they’re fairly limited number of plate appearances, but it’s impressive.

Last season he hit .280 with a .364 OBP overall in 243 at-bats, and .323 (21-for-65) with a .371 OBP in the leadoff spot.

By Greg in TN

November 27, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this

Excellent point, Berigan. I see both sides of the argument to Rose, however if Rose gets in, you have to let Shoeless Joe Jackson in too.

I am very very very curious to see how this all shakes out in the final vote.

DOB, do you have any ideas on how your brother and sister Scribes will vote as far as McGwire is concerned?

By berigan

November 27, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this

Lew, Seth McClung sounds like a future wonder. Too bad the Devil Rays are in the A.L. east, eh?? They seem to have the deepest talent(At least on the the offensive side of the game) in the majors. On day they will be great. Perhaps in another city?

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this

Lew, agree with you 100 percent on the Crawford trade fantasy. Don’t quite get why it continues….

Heard that Clapton/Cale collaboration CD on the stereo at my friend Don’s used CD store, Ella Guru. The thing is just too slow and tame for me. Background music, not inspired sounding at all….

Yes, been a long time since Journeyman, which still sounds so great when you put it on. He’s going through the motions now, like Santana and several others.

They can’t all be like Dylan and Springsteen, still putting out vital music in their 50s (Boss) and 60s (Mr. Zimmerman).

Oh, and I forgot who recommended the recent Dion CD, but I bought it strictly on your recommendation _ and I really like it. Great stuff. Surprised me a lot.

By berigan

November 27, 2006 04:28 PM | Link to this

DOB, maybe we should stick Aybar in left then!

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this

Ok, Lew; how about this one: AJ for Lester, Hanson and Coco Crisp? :-)

By MGL

November 27, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

Plus Aybar at 2B for LA, 98 INN, 1 E, 11 DP. .985 Fielding. Not too bad.

By TennesseePaul

November 27, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this

Well I guess I am in opposition to DOB on this one. I can see his point. Crawford is a proven commodity and everything in Payne’s trade is not so proven. But I don’t think it would be GM Suicide for the D-Rays. If so, he should have killed himself a long time ago. That orginization has shown no progress over its entire existence. I think the suiced would be more on JSs end except he has an unprecendented track record which would let him slide by until he makes a string of bad moves and knocks the Braves back to the 70s. But whatever. I think I’ve spent enough time on a hypothetical trade.

Lew: I concur. I don’t think a leadoff hitter is the major concern for the Braves this offseason, despite Mark Bowmans persistence. If we get one, good, if not, I think we’ll be fine. It’s all about the pitching (another reason why I think that Crawford move is a bad idea. I could see trading HoRam and Davies for another pitcher of exceptional quality, but not for a position player that we don’t entirely need.)

By Patrick

November 27, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

Don’t forget Grinch, that one of them, I forgot which, either Lester or Hanson, has Leukemia and is out for all of this year. Pray for him.

By rammerjammer

November 27, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Thanks for the Aybar research. Isn’t that something? Yet, it seems like he’s typecast as a “utility” infielder while Prado is the guy BC really likes at 2B.

Is he a butcher with a glove? Too slow on the basepaths? Unpleasant personal hygiene?

I’m trying to figure out why this guy - a 23-year-old switch hitter with superior on-base skills - is getting the same respect as Pete Orr.

By Lew

November 27, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this

Grinch-If only they had even offered Lester. Hell, I think we should trade Francoeur straight up for Cereal Dude. Don’t you?

By ncscoots

November 27, 2006 04:46 PM | Link to this

I can envision Aybar starting at 2B, if Escobar makes the club in the spring (and I’m beginning to think he might). Yunel can play SS (and probably 2B), making Aybar’s deficiencies at SS moot. Aybar would then still be available to play 3B if needed.

And while Escobar and/or Blanco could make the club, I can’t see the Braves PLANNING on one of them batting leadoff. I think it might be more likely they could be treated as Furcal was in his rookie year…get the player some regular at-bats, without the burden of too much pressure, and see if the player works into an everyday job. Meanwhile, Aybar looks to be as good an option to lead off as any trade name I’ve seen floated here.

The leadoff point being, the Braves are not going to trade for a long-term fixture to hit leadoff and freeze out younger, cheaper players who may (or may not, I know, that’s the roll of the dice) fill the bill. They ESPECIALLY are not going to sink mucho prospects/players into a trade of that type. An aging veteran as a stopgap? Sure. But trade for a longterm solution? Don’t think so, IMHO.

By ernesto

November 27, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this

Just checked out the poll results for “do you think it’s fair our payroll is down/wins are down but ticket prices are going up?” And suprisingly, 23% of us think it’s a fine idea. Looks like the interns at the Bravos home office have been busy stuffing virtual ballot boxes.

By RC

November 27, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

TennPaul,

I would agree with you that the D-Rays have made horrible moves in the past, but their current GM has actually had a pretty good run. He’s only been there for 2 or 3 years (don’t remember exactly), but the biggest trade he has made was fleecing the Mets of Scott Kazmir. He has also done a good job of building up the farm system without having a Marlins-style firesale of the current team. If they can add a few more arms the D-Rays will be ready to compete within a couple of years.

By TennesseePaul

November 27, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

Aybar was a good pick up I think. I like it. Thanks for posting those numbers DOB.
Lew: You still beating the McClung? Can’t wait to see this guy perform. Langoria should be good. I watched that guy when he was a dirtbag. He and Weaver were good. Everyone’s seen Weaver now. Langoria should impress as well. Probably not as much though. Weaver set the bar pretty frickin high.

By Lew

November 27, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this

Another thing (hopefully the last) about Crawford. The Rays had him batting second and third-leadoff very rarely.

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this

RE: McGwire. He definitely won’t make it first ballot, and if he makes it at all it’ll take several tries. I get a sense that he won’t even come close for a while.

As most of you know, we (AJC writers) are not permitted to vote on any awards any longer, same policy adopted by other papers ranging from NY Times and Washington Post to the Ft. Laud Sun-Sentinel and Associated Press (AP can’t vote for annual awards like MVP, Cy Young, etc, but I’m not sure about Hall).

Anyway, it’s not up to me to decide or say whether I agree or not with the policy. I do what I’m told. It did sting since I had just earned the right to vote after 10 consecutive years as a beat writer (I’ve got 12 years now). Voted one year and then couldn’t again. Oh, well.

For what it’s worth, if I was permitted to vote, I would not vote for McGwire or Palmeiro, because Mac admitted using Andro (same as steroids, whether he says so or not) and Palmeiro tested positive. I have strong doubts about whether either would have Hall of Fame numbers without ‘roids.

But I’ve gotta tell you, I’d view Bonds a bit differently for one big reason _ he had a Hall of Fame-caliber career BEFORE he got huge 7-8 years ago. Already had Hall numbers from his years in Pittsburgh and first year or two in San Francisco before he got huge. But again, I HAVE NO VOTE, let me make that clear. I’m not voting, can’t vote, won’t vote, and won’t take part in any surveys regarding a vote.

There’s a correlation, to me, between Bonds and Pete Rose, in that it could certainly be argued that Rose belongs in the Hall for what he did as a player, whether or not he’s banned for life from the game for gambling on games as a manager. But again, I’m not voting and not taking part in any surveys of what I’d do if I was voting, etc.

By Patrick

November 27, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this

What about Peavy? Would that, if it had been true, have been a good move? Peavy and Linebrink for Giles, Ho-Ram, and Salty.

By Robert

November 27, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this

My two cents worth on the HOF candidates

McGwire - Yes. Not so much for how great a player he was, and not even because he once held the single season dinger record, but because he was a beloved larger than life figure in the game for a long time (i.e. - FAMOUS) and a vital part of healing baseball’s rift with the fan base after the 94 strike. Steroids were not illegal in baseball when he played, so you can NOT use that against him

Rose - No WAY, no HOW, NEVER - He is now repentent, and should be forgiven. That does not mean that we should act like he knowingly and willfully never broke baseball’s cardinal “THOU SHALT NOT”. Therefore, forgiving doesnt mean he should ever be made eligible for enshrinement. He brought disgrace to the game.

For comparison, felons can leave prison when they have served their time, but they never regain the right to vote (so far as I know)

Joe Jackson - A tragedy for baseball no matter how you look at it. Almost ninety years later, it just isnt an issue. Jackson was one of the players whose fate set a precedent for Rose’s banishment, but their cases are not totally identical, and an “if-then” attitude regarding them need not be adopted. It’s almost ninety years after the fact - and with all the participants dead, it would be impossible to go back and untangle things any more than has already been done regarding what he knew, what he did, what he intended - Jackson MAY be an unfortunate victim, or may not, but the game and the HOF have more important things to do than to debate about his potential enshrinement

Secondly, gambling and performance enhancement are two totally different issues. This isnt the space to go into explaining that, however

By TennesseePaul

November 27, 2006 04:58 PM | Link to this

RC: biggest trade he has made was fleecing the Mets of Scott Kazmir

I’m not too savy on the GM goings on of the D-Rays. But if this is still the same GM as the one who robbed the Mets, I like him. And if he is the same, then he wouldn’t make the trade Payne proposed for the reason DOB sited. I hope that guy gets his team working next year. Another tough competitor in that division would make it that much harder for the Yanks to win. And it would be rather pleasing to see the Yanks miss the post season because the Rays spanked them all over creation.

By BB FAN

November 27, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure who the Braves have teaching baserunning skills but that is a big need for 2007. And it’s not just stealing bases either. They need to get a guy like Davey Lopes on the coaching staff. Although I think Lopes just signed with somebody. But there’s others out there like him.

Aybar and others have speed but do not seem to know how to run the bases or steal them. I remember even seeing Renteria make base running mistakes. I think Aybar would be fine in the leadoff spot. But he needs some help on the basepaths.

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this

RC, a few more arms? How about Ramirez and Davies? What shrewd GM wouldn’t give up an all-star or two for them? Davies, especially, is ML ready. :-)

Patrick, Lester is the sick one. I was making a joke because I knew how tired Lew was of that trade discussion a long time ago.

Lew, Frenchy for Coco? Shouldn’t we throw in Salty? Good lord, this sounds like we’re talking about a bunch of Rockettes.

By Robert

November 27, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this

“Just checked out the poll results for “do you think it’s fair our payroll is down/wins are down but ticket prices are going up?” And suprisingly, 23% of us think it’s a fine idea”

Dude, we’re talking a town where 95% of people absolutely adore and exalt an idiot manager.

It surprises me not that such folks would be clamoring to be first in line to pay more for less

By Little Bill

November 27, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this

Would someone please comment on a trade with the Braves giving Salty, Davies, Ramirez and Escobar for Crawford? Please?

If Schedurholz did that he ought to be treated the same as Coker and Shula were treated this week.

By Paul

November 27, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this

Matthew,

I agree with you on Armas. I always thought that he would eventually be a 15 game winner. Even though that has not happened, he would be a reliable 4th or 5th starter. Dave, I had a student tell me to pick up a CD by My Chemical Romance. He told me they were a Clash of the 21st century (thought Green Day’s American Idiot was solid). I was dissapointed when I heard them. Just like comparing Phish to the Dead. Phish could never come close to the Dead. I always thought Phish was overrated. No one could ever capture what the Dead had when they were “on” in concert. However, when they weren’t “on”, they were horrible. (Jerry forgetting lyrics)

By MGL

November 27, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this

Some interesting commentary on the Glavine affair and other Mets roster initiatives. If you are interested … http://www.kranepoolsociety.com/?m=200611

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this

Ncscoots, good post at 4:46. I’m in agreement, for the most part.

By ernesto

November 27, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this

Oh nooooooooo, I inadvertently cranked up the Robert “bc sucks” machine. I reluctantly take responsibility for the inevitable 2,000 word “BC is a Donkey” screed coming our way.

By Alan

November 27, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this

The Crawford talk is really amusing. The D-Rays aren’t as dumb as they used to be, folks. They stole Scott Kazmir from the Mets, don’t forget. The only way the Braves’ll get Crawford will be if they give up Andruw in return. Which may not be a bad idea except Andruw will never waive his no-trade clause to go to Tampa. Or will he? As for Glavine, I do hope he returns to the Braves, and I have the feeling he will, but only if he gets a no-trade clause himself. I’m still looking at a trade with the Orioles - Giles and Ramirez for Brian Roberts and a prospect. All of this rambling is pointless, I know, but it is fun.

By 2007 Mets

November 27, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this

MLB scheduling made it tuff for the NL East champs to repeat next year by having the Mets play all the division winners in the AL during interleague play. It’s seems like the NFL a little bit. Does anyone know who the braves are playing during interleague play next year?

By RC

November 27, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this

Regarding the Braves signing Armas, if he has that type of potential I don’t see us having a chance at signing him. With free agents flying off the shelves like Tickle-Me-Elmo dolls or XBox 360s, there is no way the Braves will be able to spend the money it’d take to sign a player like Armas (nor should they). As it’s been said many times on this blog, aside from the possibility of signing Glavine the only way the Braves will fill needs this offseason is through trades.

By Patrick

November 27, 2006 05:11 PM | Link to this

Little Bill, if Schuerholz did that they should do what Miami did to Coker, Alabama did to Shula, and what Vick did to that fan. And I would go Chuck Norris and Mike Tyson at the same time.

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 05:12 PM | Link to this

Grinch, think if they got Crisp and kept Giles _ Frenchy, Coco and Jilly. Yikes.

By RC

November 27, 2006 05:13 PM | Link to this

Alan, Not likely that Ramirez will go to the Orioles…remember, he and Leo didn’t exactly see eye-to-eye when he was pitching coach in Atlanta.

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 05:13 PM | Link to this

Then in a couple of years you might really have a cheezy musical: Coco, Jilly, Frenchy and Elvis!

OK, I’ll stop.

By Greg in TN

November 27, 2006 05:17 PM | Link to this

Thanks for your thoughts, DOB. I do think it stinks that you had your vote taken away from you.

I would be dead set against Palmeiro going into the hall and I can’t say that I’d be heartbroken if McGwire doesn’t make it in.

Robert, I will agree with you for the most part, however if at some point Rose is allowed to be enshrined in Cooperstown, I don’t see how in the world it can be done without Jackson being addressed in some form or fashion. Their cases are not completely identical, however if Jackson is the precedent for the banishment of Rose, and Rose is then somehow allowed to enter at some point in the future, wouldn’t logic dictate that the Jackson case should at least be looked at if the argument is that his case set the precedent in the first place?

For what it’s worth, I’m fine with Rose not being in. That is the one consistant message intoned by baseball and the teams from a player’s first day in the bigs. I can almost excuse the all-star collision with Fossee, but how he acted after McWilliams and Garber snapped his hitting streak in 77 was laughable.

By Lew

November 27, 2006 05:18 PM | Link to this

Paul-Many of us have been discussing trading Horacio because he is injury prone and unreliable. Let me get this straight-you would sign Tony Armas Jr., who you acknowledge has not been as impressive as billed and is injury prone. Why would you bother making a trade for a player who is pretty near identical to one you already have and you are trying to move. That just doesn’t make a bit of sense. Kind of like making those deals for Orioles’ pitchers with ERA’s of over 6.00. Seems like we already had Reitsma and Sosa.

By Patrick

November 27, 2006 05:20 PM | Link to this

Don’t forget about Salty!

By Lew

November 27, 2006 05:23 PM | Link to this

2007 Mets-The Braves play MInnesota, Boston, Cleveland and the Tigers. You get no sympathy from us on your interleague schedule.

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 05:25 PM | Link to this

If I had to make a guess based on phone calls and the like today, I have a strong suspicion the Braves and Glavine’s agent are talking contract and seeing if this thing will work. I keep going back and forth on this, but the longer we go without any word from Glavine’s camp, the more it makes me realize how badly he wants to come back to Atlanta….

By Patrick

November 27, 2006 05:36 PM | Link to this

McGwire- Yes. He and Sosa reenergized the game in 98. I don’t care what he used. Palermo- Timid Yes. Not sure. Leaning more towards 51% of me says yes. 49% says no. And the other half of me says that Shoeless Joe Jackson should be in the Hall of Fame as well. Murphy- Needs to be in now. Ripken- No question. Heck Yes.

By Paul

November 27, 2006 05:39 PM | Link to this

Lew,

A 4.48 career ERA while pitching for crappy teams like the Expos, yes he was hurt back in 2003, but he has good stuff. A change of scenary and playing for a contender would be a good thing. You can never have too much starting pitching. And by the way, Armas is a free agent, so you wouldnt have to trade for him.

By Little Bill

November 27, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this

DoB, Davies has to be the odd man out if Glavine comes back. Do you think his immediate future would put him in the bullpen? And do you think Thomson is likely to show up in a set-up role —- if his price is right?

Smoltz Hampton Glavine Hudson James Davies

By Little Bill

November 27, 2006 05:48 PM | Link to this

Another wrinkle I have not seen mentioned anywhere is the difference in state income taxes in New York and in Georgia. For sure that eats a lot of money from a multi-million dollar payroll. How much? I don’t know but surely someone on here does.

How much less could Glavine take because of those state taxes? He also has the $3 million from the Mets buyout. So, a $7 million contract from the Braves will give him $10 for the year. Throw in the tax factor and he would have a whole lot of reasons to be able to spend half the year with his family.

Being on the road 100% of the time for six months straight is not my idea of how to keep a good marriage a good marriage.

By TennesseePaul

November 27, 2006 05:48 PM | Link to this

DOB your killing me… “If I had to guess…” I wasn’t all for it at first, but the lack of any news from the Bravos this year and the need for pitching has changed my position on Glavine. And here you are with these little tidbits dangling them out there. It’s like cookies with no milk.

By the way, I have listen to the Beatles Love several times now in 5.1 stereo. It’s the Beatles as you’ve never heard them before. The sound is so frickin amazing. It just pops and thumps it’s good stuff. All the songs sound so fresh and new. I highly recommend.
Coldwar Kids tomorrow. At least I’m told.
Richard Swifts new album is incredible. It’ll be out in February. I’ll forward a copy your way as soon as I can.

By Robert

November 27, 2006 05:49 PM | Link to this

“however if at some point Rose is allowed to be enshrined in Cooperstown, I don’t see how in the world it can be done without Jackson being addressed in some form or fashion”

I dont see the need to go back and try and embellish ancient history with some sense of policial correctness. Jackson’s just far too old news

My understanding is that as long as Rose is banished from baseball, he cannot be eligible for the HOF. Should he be reinstated to the game, the HOF could then decide on his eligibility (correct me if I am wrong and if in fact his eligibility automatically follows)

I think the people should forgive him, and that it would be ok to forgive him - tho whether that should include reinstatement to the game - I wouldnt go that far. If they DO reinstate him, I think the HOF would be doing itself and its inductees a tremendous indignity by making him eligible - at least as great an indignity as would be any subsequant enshrinement

Now - suppose Rose gets reinstated and maybe enshrined and we decide that Jackson’s case is worth reviewing.

On one hand, Jackson is a much easier guy to reinstate philosophically. Jackson forked up by agreeing to be in on someone else’s scheme. Rose devised his own scheme - after precedent had been set

So if Rose goes in, then so should Jackson. But then the whole rule loses its power - and the integrity of the game suffers forever

The importance of the fates, fortunes, or legacies of these two individuals, no matter how good they were, do not even remotely compare to the importance of the integrity of the institution.

Which brings us back to point A - Rose must NEVER be even made ELIGIBLE for the HOF

If you argue that the HOF suffers by not having Rose among it’s ranks, then I say that the fact that his act ultimately lessened the HOF by his excluding himself reflects the magnitude of his crime

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 05:53 PM | Link to this

Steroids. Where do you draw the line on performance enhancers? Createne (sp?) is allowed, as is Whey Protein. Do steroids make a big difference in performance, particularly, the offensive part? If that’s the case how come only 3 players of the “Steroid Era” has surpassed 60 home runs? With that said, if the same stigma is attached to pitcher then you may have an argument for stopping someone from joining the Hall based on suspected steroid use. Roger Clemmons will be a first ballot HOF’er despite the whispers linking him to steroids. You think those whispers will even be discussed at that time? How many people here think steroids have a greater effect on pitchers than hitters?

DOB, your point about Andro is grossly argumentative. Andro, in 1998, was a legal supplement. Further, he stopped taking it once the media started hounding him about it. If Andro was legal how can you hold that against a player? Going to the extreme, but a very good example, what if all of sudden its ruled that caffeine is no longer legal in MLB? You would rule out almost every major league player for the Hall? Again, I know that’s an extreme example but practical nonetheless and you would have a better argument if you used his statements in front of congress.

Bonds. Until someone proves beyond a reasonable doubt that bonds took steroids then it would be an absolute shame that Barry Bonds is refused his right in Cooperstown. Palmeiro, unfortunately cost himself the hall IMO as he tested positive. Nothing can be argued about that.

The San Francisco Journalist book is irrelevant in my opinion. I don’t take a persons word when it is clearly they are exploiting an issue for monetary gain. I don’t blame them for doing it but I tend to look at those situations with skepticism. Would there be a book if the writers did not link Bonds to steroids?

Another quick point:

The Hall of Fame is not —- should not be about character, personality, or attitude. Players did not have to deal with the media crush that is now prevalent in MLB, NFL, and NBA 50 years ago. Yes, I know someone will point out Jackie Robinson and Roger Marris those were the exceptions back then not the rule.

By Little Bill

November 27, 2006 05:55 PM | Link to this

Possible wins if all have a good year.

Smoltz 16

Hampton 15

Glavine 14

Hudson 13

James 12

That adds to only 70 games and it’s going to take 95 to win that pennant. Somebody is going to have to win 25 more. The bullpen is going to have to do a very good job. Unless one or two of the starters got lucky and won 18 or 19 each.

I don’t envy JS his job. With that list of starters he’ll have three on the long tooth side, another reaching for that position and only one young one. With Davies in the wings when needed and he will be needed.

By Patrick

November 27, 2006 05:55 PM | Link to this

But gambling?

Babe Ruth did God-knows-what with his money, betting on many things, I wager (no pun intended), but he is of course in the HOF. I feel that many people who are media friendly guys are in the HOF because, of course, they are media-friendly. And who votes for the HOF? The media. Now, Pete Rose was not exactly a Media guy. But I feel he deserves to at least be in the HOF. He’s the all-time leader in hits, for crying out loud!

By mariner

November 27, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

Bonds took steroids in the form of the “cream” and the “clear”. He doesn’t deny taking steroids. He denies knowingly taking steroids. Just like Sheffield.

By Robert

November 27, 2006 06:02 PM | Link to this

Ok - let’s open a can of worms

I am not big on the idea of automatics in HOF selections.

I know Rose is the all time hits leader. He was undoubtedly a good hitter, with a career K/BB of less than one and .300 average in an era when averages ran low

But you know what. A combination of factors - the “Charlie Hustle” image, the famous collision with Fosse, and being part of the BRM (the last being the most valid plus factor) combined to inflate the perception of Rose above his real abilities

Career adjusted OPS 118, people

Despite all the hits and the hype, there’s a lot of guys who ultimately helped generate more runs per game than Pete Rose

There’s this incredible unwritten but almost gospel like belief that the guys with “the most” need to be automatic HOFers

I dont care so much for the largest numbers. I want the HOF to be the best players

Even if he hadnt gambled on ball, Rose is a maybe whose case is most strengthened by a falsely inflated legend

By Lew

November 27, 2006 06:07 PM | Link to this

Paul-Dude, I beg to differ with you about Armas,Jr. In the past four years, he has started more than 20 games just once-so he’s been hurt a lot more than just one season. The past three years his ERA has been 4.88, 4.97 and last year was 5.03. Do you see the negative trend, here? You’d rather have him in the rotation instead of Horacio? Dude, I just don’t see it. As far as being a Free Agent-You might not have to give up any players in return except those you couldn’t afford to pay with what he will cost. Have you ever heard the parable of the bird in the hand? It is applicable. I would rather see Horacio leave for whatever we could get in return and use the money you save with him to help buy someone better than either Horacio OR Armas.

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 06:09 PM | Link to this

TennPaul, I’ve read that Cold War Kids CD is great, but haven’t heard it myself. Tower went bankrupt before got that shipment, so it wasn’t available there during the ongoing sale, and the Circuit City I checked didn’t have it. I’ll check Criminal Records tomorrow. They’ll have it for sure.

Gotta get the new three-CD Tom Waits set first. Outtakes, rarities, etc, and it’s gotten overwhelming strong reviews.

Wanted to see that Beatles “Love” Cirque Du Soleil show in Vegas, but it was sold out both nights.

By Little Bill

November 27, 2006 06:09 PM | Link to this

“The Hall of Fame is not —- should not be about character, personality, or attitude”

I disagree about the character part. I think character should be an integral part of judging a man. After all he is supposed to be the best example. When young boys are taken to the Hall of Fame they would know the player was a rule breaker of the first order. Is that the picture we want to paint?

Rose is not eligible in my opinion. I have yet to see him express any thoughts of sorrow for his actions. He’s sorry he got caught and he admits HE MADE THE BETS and that was against all rules.

Joe Jackson got no money and it is said he didn’t realize what was going on and I believe he hit over .400 in that series. I’d vote for Jackson in a heartbeat before Rose.

By Patrick

November 27, 2006 06:13 PM | Link to this

Little Bill, don’t forget about the no-decisions and bullpen wins that every team has, and the occasional minor-leauge callup in case somebody can’t start. Also, I have some win predictions with your pitchers as well. Smoltz: 17 wins

Hudson in a bounceback year: 18 wins

Glavine: 14 wins

James: 15 years (is a blossoming star who should have gotten some ROY votes but did not for some reason)

Hampton: 14 wins

That adds up to 78 wins. I say the bullpen and other get about 15 more wins. That’s 95. ALso, I think with Pedro out, winning the division only requires about 85-90 wins this time.

By Lew

November 27, 2006 06:16 PM | Link to this

Billy-You say only three players in the steroid era hit over 60 HR’s. However, only two did it in the 100 years prior to that. One polayer and then another 30 something years later, then another 30 something until the steroid era. Yeah-It made a difference. The problem with McGwire is that in front of Congress, he wouldn’t admit or deny what he had done. He LIED, Dude. Yeah, that makes a difference. A big one. As far as Rose. If Rose is ever allowed into the HOF, it should be done as a proclaimation with NO induction ceremony. Then he should never be allowed in a dugout ever again.

By Lew

November 27, 2006 06:19 PM | Link to this

Robert-Sorry Dude-If Rose hadn’t bet on baseball, he would have been a first ballot election to the HOF. Bottom line, no if ands or buts.

By Paul

November 27, 2006 06:20 PM | Link to this

There are many players that should not be in the Hall of Fame. Bill Mazeroski, Kirby Puckett, and Don Sutton, and Robin Yount are prime examples. (go back even further and look at Johnny Evers, Joe Tinker, and Frank Chace) The HOF has become so dilluted over the years that it has become a joke.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 06:22 PM | Link to this

I disagree about the character part. I think character should be an integral part of judging a man. - Little Bill (this would make me big bill?)

Your judging a baseball player not a man.

Hudson in a bounceback year: 18 wins - Patrick

Do you have any idea what you probably just did, lol?

By Jim

November 27, 2006 06:31 PM | Link to this

Nixon set a franchise record for SBs on a BC managed team (and a career high). Gant was a 30-30 man on a BC coached team. When they were younger Chipper and Andruw stole 20 - 30 bases/year on a BC coached team.

Marquis Grissom did not steal as many bases for the Braves as he did with the Expos, but he has not stolen more for anybody else since.

How many SBs did Furcal have this year with LA? Was it anymore than he’s had with the Braves?

I doubt if Giles will steal more bases next year than he has in the recent past if he is not with the Braves.

It is probably the case that BC plays with the hand he’s dealt, and that has not included a lot of speed.

By Lew

November 27, 2006 06:38 PM | Link to this

Paul- 291 Inductees, including players, managers, owners, scouts and media personnel in well over 100 years and all the people ever involved with baseball is not exclusive? Are you serious?

By TennesseePaul

November 27, 2006 06:40 PM | Link to this

Little Bill: Interesting math. Count Smoltz in for about 20+. His record may or may not show it. The past two years he was in line for 20+ wins and the pen shanked him.

If you wanna get real technical, you’d have to look at the team record for the wins when a pitcher is starting…
Smoltz 20-15
Hudson 21-14
James 11-7
I don’t know Glavine’s figures and Obviously any thing on Hampton isn’t current enough to really calibrate. But that’s 52 wins right there. If we suspect Hampton will go 15-10 this season, the team is probably about 20-15 in his starts and similar with Glavine. That’d put us at about 90 wins. Wins are a team record though. The pitcher can only do so much. Clemens can toss a gem every night and keep that ERA at 2 or below, but with no run support or fielding to back him up, he isn’t going to get the credit for a W. So, if you really want to project, it’s going to have to be by different means than starting pitching W/L records from the previous season.

By J-MAN

November 27, 2006 06:41 PM | Link to this

Robert dude you totally ripped off that 6 year cousin getting signed joke from me except mine was my 6 year-old cousin signed a 2-year deal with the Mariners, I wrote it on the last blog on Saturday. As for everything else heres what I’d do, 1st get the O’s and D-rays in a 3-Way—- (HUH HUH I said 3-Way HEH HEH, tribute to Beavis & Butt-Head right there), anyways a 3-Way trade have Hudson go to the O’s, we get Crawford and the Rays get Salty and Hayden Penn. #2 trade Giles for Linebrink. #3 sign Glavine for 7 Mil a year or less for 2 years with a No-trade if he don’t take the tell him to F-OFF. #4 Trade HoRam for a Lefty set-up guy or see if he can’t do it himself, and/or sign a guy like Ray King. Andthen sell the naming rights of Turner Field to try to get some extra Flow all up in the Braves organization.

By Robert

November 27, 2006 06:43 PM | Link to this

Lew - I’m not saying you’re wrong. I am saying that he wouldnt automatically be on my ballot if I had a vote

There are no automatic qualifiers to make the HOF, and I dislike the kind of thinking that acts as if there are (300 wins is in, or 500 HR, or whatEVER)

Players get in because of what they did and how good they were. The numbers they accumulate do so because of what they did and how good they were. But the numbers arent the reason they merit recognition by the HOF

As for “Steroids. Where do you draw the line on performance enhancers?”

That’s so simple even Cox could understand it.The line is drawn at the point where baseball declared steroids illegal.

HOF eligibility, and penalties for behavior or actions, should be set upon the written and recognized laws of the game, not based on anyone’s interpretation of the morality of a player’s actions

Rose’s gambling doesnt disqualify him because it’s “immoral” or “a sin”. Rose’s gambling disqualifies him because he bet on baseball, including ongames in which he took part, and the rules of the game that’s not legal

In other words, voters need to be dispassionate on this issue in this sense. If you feel that performance enhancers inflated a guy’s numbers so much that without the drugs he wouldnt be a HOFer candidate, then consider it in your vote. But simply to say no because he might have or did use enhancers before they were outawed - that shouldnt be for you to decide.

My opinions

And another arguement to base HOF votes on players, each one an individual case, as opposed to numbers

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 06:44 PM | Link to this

Sorry, Robert, but I’ve never heard one person connected with the game, including the many, many players I asked as part of the Sports Illustrated survey, who’ve said Rose doesn’t belong in the Hall based on merits. Players all say he belongs in, period, but I’ve never known anyone in the game or who covers the game suggest that Rose’s on-field accomplishments weren’t Hall-worthy. That’s absurd. Don’t give me adjusted OPS and all that with Pete Rose, man. Look at the damn hits. Come on, get serious.

BILLY, I couldn’t disagree more with almost every point you made. Totally disagree with you on almost everything. The San Francisco Chronicle writers will likely with a Pulitzer for their work, which wasn’t based on opinions but reams and reams of evidence and grand jury testimony. What in the world are you talking about? You’ll take Barry’s word over their work? OK, tells me something right there.

And you’re wrong when you say steroids were “legal” in baseball. Just because there was no testing policy or penalty in the collective bargaining agreement for steroids doesn’t mean they were “legal” in the game. The simple fact: It was a CRIME in the United States to use steroids without a prescription during that period. users were breaking the LAW. Does the fact that bank robbery isn’t in the collective bargaining agreement mean it’s “legal” in baseball? Or speeding, or shoplifting? They’re all against the law.

And maybe chemical enhancement means nothing to you in regards to how you view players, but it does me. You have your opinions, I’ll have mine. But don’t even try to persuade me to believe your theories about Bonds, the fine Chronicle investigative reporters, or the “legality” of steroid use in baseball before penalties were added to the collective bargaining agreement. Give me a break.

By Lew

November 27, 2006 06:46 PM | Link to this

Jim-No, Furcal did not steal more bases with the Dodgers than with the Braves, but did steal more with them in all but two seasons with Atlanta-his first and last years. I hardly think that Raffy has lost a step like the others you mentioned at that point in their careers. It’s not a matter of which hand he’s dealt, BC’s teams just don’t run that much even when they have the speed.

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 06:51 PM | Link to this

If Hudson wins 18 games next year I’ll eat my shoe. The only way that’s happening is if the Bravos average 9.5 per in his starts.

Robert, dude…you’ve made so much sense all day to this point. That Rose argument sounded uncomfortably like the one Shaun made at the end of the season about Howard not having a great offensive season (despite narrowly missing the triple crown) due to his adjusted OBSTETRIST/VORPAL or whatever. I doubt you’ll do like he does and say three .200 hitters are logically better than one .400 one, but please do explain what you mean.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 06:51 PM | Link to this

Lew,

Do you agree that players today despite steroids are bigger, stronger, and quicker than the players of yesterday? Players keep them selves in better shape today than in the past. Of course their stats are gonna be better. If you think about it the health craze “grass roots” started back around 1985 or so (I could be a little off as I was only 6) with the appointment of Arnold as the first presidential advisor for health or something or other.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 27, 2006 06:54 PM | Link to this

yes, but do they have a wurlitzer?

By Patrick

November 27, 2006 06:57 PM | Link to this

Paul, Don Sutton won 300 games. That is stupid saying that he shouldn’t be in the Hall of Fame. I think you are bitter that he left here. I loved him as an announcer too, but that does not mean that I don’t think that he should not be in the HOF.

By the way, the SF Chronicle writers did an outstanding job with their work. I could not agree more with DOB about them winning the Pulitzer Prize. Just awesome work.

By Robert

November 27, 2006 06:57 PM | Link to this

Paul - WOW!

And I thought I was harsh.

Mazeroski, no way. Puckett, no how. I agree there

Sutton. 324 wins be damned. I wouldnt have voted for him. There’s far better pitchers who didnt last as long who arent in

But Yount? There’s a buncha guys I’d kick out before booting Yount.

The HOF was first made too large when all of McGraw’s cronies got enshrined

Now, in the age of political correctness, people go by the lowest common denominator. If the guy I like has any set of statistics that compare favorably to anyone already in Cooperstown, then it is unfair and unjust to not induct my guy

A bad idea is made worse when position considerations arent even taken into account.

If all that werent bad enough, there’s some artificial numbers that somehow are viewed as thresholds that if passed equate with a pass in

And then of course if everybody liked him a lot and he seemed like a nice guy

Hello Mazeroski, and Puckett, and Perez, and Sutton, and Sandberg - and people crying out for Santo, and Dawson, and Murphy, and Garvey, and Hernandez, and Rice,

Good players all - HOFers - None, in my book

There is nothing wrong with recognizing popularity and achievement. But to confuse “very goodness” with truly exceptional greatness, which is, by definition, RARE, is to do the latter a gross injustice. It’s a mark of a vulgar society

It shouldnt be “no child left behind”. It should be “no limits on the achievements of one child because of the deficiencies or of another

By ernesto

November 27, 2006 06:59 PM | Link to this

If Bobby’s keeping them from running who exactly is “they”? We haven’t had a lot of speed merchants over the years. Otis and Deion used to walk a double pretty regularly. Lofton was just pitiful his year here. Other guys stole to their ability I believe, like Kelly or Veras.

That being said, BC is hardly a riverboat gambler on the basepaths, I’ll give you that.

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 07:01 PM | Link to this

Ok, Robert, I see where you’re coming from after your 6:43 post. I agree about arbitrary numbers in general. However, Rose is a definite exception. The dude was a monster player by anyone’s account, and that should be enough.

Billy, hate to sound like I’m piling on, but did you see Barry both early in his career and then after his mysterious power-surge occurred? If you’ve been a superior athlete your whole life, you don’t magically put on 35-40 pounds of lean muscle (and double your strength level and recovery time) all of a sudden after age 35. Not without chemicals. Don’t even get me started on the doubling of the size of his head and the tripling of the width of his neck. That doesn’t come from a healthier diet.

By J-MAN

November 27, 2006 07:03 PM | Link to this

The whole Barry Bonds Steroids thing is this we can’t prove that he did them although, if it walks like a duck… But this is 100% MLB and the Players Union FAULT they should have treated illeagal drugs like any other sport but they used it as a barganing chip in negotiations and totally showed that there is no class between the Union and MLB. Now, you want to put an asterick in the records books why its not Bonds Fault, it was legal. So people don’t whine like B*tches just because a jerk holds the record just blame the Union and MLB. In fact you should feel sorry for Bonds, for the fact he probably has taken years off his life and is scrutinized whereever he goes for the rest of his life. But if you people do really want to find out if he did do them then go with Marty McFly and the Delorian all Back to the Future like and, make sure you get the Delorian to 88MPH though and let us know who took what.

By Tommy G.

November 27, 2006 07:03 PM | Link to this

I wih wetun to the Atwanta Bwaves foh wess money if I can pway cwose to home. I am dewayed getting back home because I cannot cwoss the picket wine heah at the aipowt. as soon as the stwike is settled I wih be home and wih sign wif the Bwaves. Cowective bogaining is my wife - no, that doesn’t sound wight. Cowective bogaining is my wife - no, not my wife, my wife. cowective bogaining is my wife - doh! wook foh the union wabel.

By doc

November 27, 2006 07:05 PM | Link to this

dob,like the emphasis on the illegal part of the roid issue. mcguire says he did andro which was legal in his time as it was in every gnc in the country. my own take is that was purposely put in his locker to be a smoke screen for what all in baseball knew he was doing which was the same thing as the other bruise brother canseco. mcgurie couldnt say anything in front of the senate as to avoid to purjure himself because canseco had too much evidence on him otherwise. agree the mcguire, palmeiro and sammy ought to stay out of the hall as they are frauds, but doubt they will.

sad thing is the commish turned his head on the whole thing.

By TennesseePaul

November 27, 2006 07:06 PM | Link to this

Keep Rose out. If for no other reason than to have Hanks hits be second in the Hall instead of third. Most hits not 4,000. The only 3,500/750 guy in history (H/HR). His Total bases are out of this world as well. But whatever. I like that Rose isn’t in there. It’s about the only constant in baseball. Gambling is not permitted. The rest seems to change.
McGwire did admit to using Andro, but as I recall, at the time that was a legal over the counter substance in the US and not banned by baseball. For what it’s worth, I did do a little projecting on Big Mac. I’m not sure when the “official” roiding period began for McGwire, but I assumed it was after he made the pros. After he set the Rookie record of 49 homers. He ended up being side lined with injuries in the middle of his career. Projecting his numbers out puts him at about were he would have been assuming no injuries and no juice. But that is all assumption. If Andro is all he did, I couldn’t hold it against him. If he did other stuff and picked that up in the middle of his career, then it didn’t help him obtain a mark he wouldn’t have reached had he been healthy and chemical free. (Bonds though would never been a 700 HR guy without the roids. About 10% of his career homers are from one season). Everything is an assumption though. I loved watching that guy hit a home run. He’d crush ‘em. It just looked so final when he hit him.

By CharlotteDave

November 27, 2006 07:15 PM | Link to this

I did a little research concerning draft compensation for type A free agents. Apparently teams that finish in the bottom half of Baseball, record wise, don’t have to forfeit their first round pick when they sign a type A free agent. Both the Braves, who have the 14th pick and the Orioles, who have the fifth pick, finished in the bottom half. They would only forfeit their second round picks and a sandwich pick between the first and second round would also be rewarded to the team that lost the type A free agent. That’s, of course, good news because the Braves could sign Glavine without losing a pretty high draft pick in what is considered a strong draft. Plus, the Baez compensation, while only being a second round pick, will be a very high one.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 07:16 PM | Link to this

”BILLY, I couldn’t disagree more with almost every point you made. Totally disagree with you on almost everything.”

That’s O.K.

“*The San Francisco Chronicle writers will likely with a Pulitzer for their work, which wasn’t based on opinions but reams and reams of evidence and grand jury testimony. *”

Let me see a certified copy of the grand jury testimony Dave. You cant provide that I know. I can say anything I want about a grand jury testimony as no one can discount it, legally that is. Have you seen this evidence? Written words, I agree, are very strong but with out seeing the physical evidence I cant convict a person much less deny his right to the Hall of Fame.

“What in the world are you talking about? You’ll take Barry’s word over their work? OK, tells me something right there.”

I’m not necessarily taking B. Bonds word over theirs. I choose not to believe either one. If Barry used steroids that would be such a shame as he did not need it. I believe he probably used steroids but until it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt then I give the man the benefit of the doubt.

Dave, are you telling me that baseball players don’t get the same rights from their league they would get in a courtroom?

When has bonds tested positive for steroids? When has he been convicted of steroid use? NEVER. Explain to me how you can keep someone from something when the only court that has convicted him/her is the court of public opinion.

For the record I didn’t say this:

“And you’re wrong when you say steroids were “legal” in baseball”

By Robert

November 27, 2006 07:19 PM | Link to this

“I doubt you’ll do like he does and say three .200 hitters are logically better than one .400 one, but please do explain what you mean”

They arent? (kidding)

Ok - Pete Rose broke Ty Cobb’s long-standing record for most career base hits.

But (IMO) Pete Rose couldnt carry Ty Cobb’s jock, before or after he broke the record

So, he is thre all time hits leader. So what?

When Cal McVey retired after the 1879 season, HE was the all-time hits leader. Anyone think he is therefore an automatic HOFer?

As soon as you answer that, “No, but he wasnt Rose” you are IMPLYING that the single stat isnt the determining factor.

So STOP SAYING that he is obviously a first ballot HOFer because of that single stat

Does that make sense?

Grinch - I got two shiny dimes, a paper clip, an old marble, and some hamster poop - Swap ya for that beat up old silver dollar you got

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 07:21 PM | Link to this

Billy, hate to sound like I’m piling on, but did you see Barry both early in his career and then after his mysterious power-surge occurred? If you’ve been a superior athlete your whole life, you don’t magically put on 35-40 pounds of lean muscle (and double your strength level and recovery time) all of a sudden after age 35. Not without chemicals. Don’t even get me started on the doubling of the size of his head and the tripling of the width of his neck. That doesn’t come from a healthier diet.

Well Andruw Jones must be on “roids”

By Robert

November 27, 2006 07:21 PM | Link to this

DOB - Do I have to tell you that I preach against EVER accepting, at face value, without doing one’s own critical analysis, the supposed concensus of supposedly everybody (that counts anyways) - whether it’s about Rose, or Cox, or anything else

THINK FOR YOURSELF!

I am a person, not a lemming

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 07:23 PM | Link to this

10Paul, I used Andro for about 6 months one time before it was taken off the shelves. It makes a noticeable difference, but nothing like ‘roids (no, I’ve never taken them, but I played with and worked with several who have). Look at McGwire’s rookie card and then again at his ‘98 one. No way. You’re right, though; the dude could definitely mash.

Jimmy Smith, you’re not right in the head. :-)

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 07:24 PM | Link to this

Before I get beat up….im not saying litterly that AJ is on roids but as a counter point to the weight gain argument.

By Robert

November 27, 2006 07:31 PM | Link to this

“Look at the damn hits”

No, look at the whole picture. A first ballot HOF is one of the best players to ever play the game.

Rose doesnt make my short list of elite of the elite, even tho he has the most hits

“The simple fact: It was a CRIME in the United States to use steroids without a prescription during that period. users were breaking the LAW. “

DOB - Until such time as I endanger others, such as by drunk driving, I do not condone giving governement the right to legislate what I can or can not do to or with MY body - including what substances I choose to put into it

For an institution to decide that it is aginst their rules of conduct is one thing., and is within their right

For a government to decide that it is criminal behavior is another, and should NOT be within their rights

Personally, I think the Fed had no business being involved in the investigation of the game. Yes, it was ultimately beneficial, but the challenge to our society is to find ways to do difficult and beneficial things WITHOUT having to subject ourselves to government control to do so

We dont want this to get political.

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 07:33 PM | Link to this

Robert, I agree about Cobb being better than Rose. And if you’ll look back, I never said he should be in because of that one single stat. I said he was a monster player, and that should be enough. I agree about not relying on single stats (no way Palmiero deserves to be in the hall just for hitting 500; the dude never stood out in any way. If he did, he wouldn’t have needed to make those Viagra commercials). Murphy deserves it before Palmiero, because he stood out amongst his competition. Not saying he deserves it ultimately, but you get my point. What size paper clip? :-)

By J-MAN

November 27, 2006 07:35 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul there you go like so many fans do and project who did or didn’t do, what the numbers would have been and going to percentages. Now I know that you do know that you are under assumption and thats good on your part I’d have to say why waste time on the projections. The Fact Is- we do have numbers although tainted that is the figures and they should not be changed in anyway because what the Union and MLB did in not making sure that having a clean sport was a top priority is an unforgivable sin and Bud Seleg and Donald Feir should be the ones fined and going on trial for basically saying that its ok if you Juice just as long you hit 500ft Homers or throw 100MPH or give us ratings and attendance and in return we’ll give you 20 Mil a year contracts its just sickening. Now my opinion on Rose is he should be in just because the Hall is not owned with MLB and he still should be banned for life for MLB though and Joe Jackson from the numbers I’ve seen did not throw the 1919 series how do you hit .400 and try to loose especially when its tough to hit .250

By Robert

November 27, 2006 07:36 PM | Link to this

When someone tells you that something is obvious because “everyone knows that” or because “everyone agrees that”

then take the time to figure out

1. WHY “everyone” might think that way

2. Why you are being told that by the peron telling you

and then decide if you agree

Dont just shrug and say “OK, I guess I’ll “know” that to be true also”

You know, in 1491, it was obvious to all the experts that the world was flat.

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 07:37 PM | Link to this

Roids don’t make you gain all your weight around your waistline; Andruw just eats too much. He starts stealing 30 bases and breaking bats over his knee after strikeouts, and we’ll talk. Oprah put on a lot of weight after 35, too; it isn’t the same thing.

By J-MAN

November 27, 2006 07:41 PM | Link to this

Now I hope that AJ ain’t on Steroids but he was Sheffields homeboy while he as in ATL. And AJ did is bigger now and back when Shef was a Brave than he was before Shef was whith us.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 07:41 PM | Link to this

Here is a question for you.

Would MLB be where it is today with out the battle between Sosa and McGwire in 1998?

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 07:45 PM | Link to this

*”DOB - Until such time as I endanger others, such as by drunk driving, I do not condone giving governement the right to legislate what I can or can not do to or with MY body - including what substances I choose to put into it

For an institution to decide that it is aginst their rules of conduct is one thing., and is within their right

For a government to decide that it is criminal behavior is another, and should NOT be within their rights

Personally, I think the Fed had no business being involved in the investigation of the game. Yes, it was ultimately beneficial, but the challenge to our society is to find ways to do difficult and beneficial things WITHOUT having to subject ourselves to government control to do so

We dont want this to get political.”*

Right On!!!

However, I still respect laws even if I dont agree with them.

By J-MAN

November 27, 2006 07:58 PM | Link to this

“Until such time as I endanger others, such as by drunk driving, I do not condone giving governement the right to legislate what I can or can not do to or with MY body - including what substances I choose to put into it

For an institution to decide that it is aginst their rules of conduct is one thing., and is within their right

For a government to decide that it is criminal behavior is another, and should NOT be within their rights”

You know what guys I think we got something here.

We dont want this to get political

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 08:04 PM | Link to this

We dont want this to get political.

I think it already is but people just dont know it yet.

By JJMB

November 27, 2006 08:05 PM | Link to this

DOB wrote,

“And you’re wrong when you say steroids were “legal” in baseball. Just because there was no testing policy or penalty in the collective bargaining agreement for steroids doesn’t mean they were “legal” in the game. The simple fact: It was a CRIME in the United States to use steroids without a prescription during that period. users were breaking the LAW. Does the fact that bank robbery isn’t in the collective bargaining agreement mean it’s “legal” in baseball? Or speeding, or shoplifting? They’re all against the law.”

God bless you, man. I really mean it.

By Adam

November 27, 2006 08:32 PM | Link to this

MAYBE WE SHOULD SIGN BRAD KOMINSK AND LEN BARKER…THATLL SHOW ‘EM!!

By Robert

November 27, 2006 08:35 PM | Link to this

Grinch - BIG FANCY GOLD colored paper clip

Some thoughts on Bonds - Look, Bonds did the stuff. We can prove it circumstantially ever which way. But that isnt enough to “prove” it to convict him

Kinda like OJ. He killed her, but you couldnt convict him the way they tried, with THAT evidence and THOSE witnesses

Canseco’s book is really fascinating about the steroids thing. What these guys were doing, essentially, is cutting each other’s throats. The guys willing to juice ended up with some jobs at the expense of those started off as at least equal prospects but wouldnt juice up (anyone remember what a hot prospect Ben Grieve was in his day?)

Canseco goes into how a young player who juices and cuz of that pops a couple of 40 dinger seasons sets himself up for that one contract that sets him, his family, and most likely several generations of his family to come, for life.

Who wouldnt take care of their family? If it’s bad for their health, what parent wouldnt take a bullet for their child?

Y’all tell me something. If you could rig the Powerball - the stipulation being that if you get caught, you get the chair, BUT, your family gets to keep the money

There aint a parent alive that wouldnt do it. If they say they wouldnt, they are lying

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 08:37 PM | Link to this

ARE YOU READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL? Hank’s fixin’ to ask the question; just wanted to make sure y’all were ready and properly considered your answer.

By Robert

November 27, 2006 08:40 PM | Link to this

“However, I still respect laws even if I dont agree with them.”

So obviously you never imbibed an alcoholic beverage before reaching legal age and have never exceeded the speed limit.

Or is it only the IMPORTANT laws that you respect even if you disagree with them

I dont not do drugs because they are illegal. I dont do drugs because they harm my body and my person

I dont not kill people because it is illegal.

Dig deep and you’ll find that a big reason a lot of folks “respect” laws is that they are afraid of the consequences of getting caught violating them

Ok, I’m gone for a bit again. Commenting on OJ got me thinkin of one of all-time favorite sick songs

Everybody sing - I used to love her, but I had to kill her ………..

By Paul

November 27, 2006 08:49 PM | Link to this

Lew,

The point I’m trying to make is that the HOF should include the “elite” players and not the very good players. If you put in players like Puckett and Yount, then you have to induct Dawson, Mattingly, and Keith Hernandez. I’m sorry but Sutton is not a hall of fame pitcher. He was a complier. He played over 20 seasons. 300 wins should not automatically make you a hall of famer.

By Robert

November 27, 2006 08:53 PM | Link to this

The tragedy of the steroid era is not that some athlete failed to be a good role model.

It’s not that Bonds might end up with one more home run than Aaron, either

Aaron is no less a ballpalyer if he is second vs first on the all-time dinger list

The tragedy is that the steroid played out to an audience that sees stats and numbers and doesnt know what to do with them.

In other words, some folks got to thinking that a Bret Boone was a real good ballplayer - because they saw he hit 40 home runs one year

And yeah - I’d bet my paycheck ($1.25 a day here in prison) that Bret Boone was juiced

By Robert

November 27, 2006 09:01 PM | Link to this

Paul - YES!

A pitcher is not great because he wins X number of games

A pitcher wins X number games, partially because of how great he is or isnt,

and partly because of who he played for

and partly because of how long he played

and partly because of who his teammates were

and partly because of which way the wind blew when he pitched

and partly because of the nature of the rules defining how he can qualify for wins

and so on

If a player belongs in the HOF, then the detailed analysis that goes beyond looking at his raw numbers and electing because he had X number of wins , or hits, or hoime runs, or hemorrhoids, will BEAR HIM OUT as a HOFer

If you love baseball and get into this sort of thing Benson’s “Whatever Happned to the Hall of Fame” is a worthwhile read

By Glavines Guy

November 27, 2006 09:04 PM | Link to this

ok just so i have this correct. Vick flips off the fans, looks like an extra in a snoop dog video and most everyone on here supports him. He is not wrong, he is playing poorly because of his team, his coach etc. but with a chance that you can get a class act like Glavine back into the citys sports scene, all i read is he is a traitor, he is union this union that, he sold out. No he left for a guarenteed paycheck bottom line, Sgt shultz the gm offered a bunch of team option contracts and he took the offer from the other guy. but let your gangster wanna be non accurate passing QB flip off the home team fans and all is right with the world. Kinda says alot about the state of the fan today, aslong as the player is flash all is ok, but if the guy is class we are gonna micro disect his financial so called greed. so congrats ATL, you will keep your QB, in the meantime, the class guy who wants to pass a milestone in the city where his kids live, will probably return to the north where he has recieved respect and appreciation from both fans and ownership, and take with him as he did four years ago, my cheering, my enthusiasm and my love of the game.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 09:07 PM | Link to this

Some thoughts on Bonds - Look, Bonds did the stuff. We can prove it circumstantially ever which way. But that isnt enough to “prove” it to convict him

Do it right now with out using hearsay.

So obviously you never imbibed an alcoholic beverage before reaching legal age and have never exceeded the speed limit.

To say I respect laws is very diffent from saying i dont break laws. semantics. Of course I break laws. Who doesnt? That was dumb point and I think its not really what we’re talking about.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 09:15 PM | Link to this

Glavines Guy

I think you a little off base. Most people who are saying that stuff about Glavine are one time posters such as yourself. It is of my opinion that most people would welcome Glavine back. Not only for what he did for the organization but what he could do for it now. Now I know its debateable wheather he could help the team now but with the critisim Ive heard about H. Ramirez he cant be no worse.

By Lew

November 27, 2006 09:16 PM | Link to this

Paul-Hiow in the world can you say that Yount’s 3,000 hits were undeserving of HOF election. How can you possibly say that Sutton’s 300 wins are not worthy. Stop and think a minute-20 seasons with an average of 15 wins per season-that is total consistency. Now you may possibly have a point with Bill Mazeroski, but even then you have to look at him in relation to second basemen of his era. The filling of the middle infield positions in the 50’s and 60’s was done entirely different than today. If anything, there’s probably more players deserving of HOF election that HAVEN’T been elected than there are those elected who are undeserving. The only stats I would call into question are those from the late 80’s and the 90’s. Whether due to steroids, small ball parks or dilution of pitching, hitting .330 and hitting 500 HR’s is not what it used to be.

By Paul

November 27, 2006 09:17 PM | Link to this

I’ll probably be criticized for saying this but if you look at Ripken’s numbers (take away the consecutive games streak) those are not HOF numbers. Gehrig was an elite player who happened to play everyday. Ripken is going to need the streak to enter the Hall. I mean should A.C. Green be in the Hall because he holds the consecutive games played streak in the NBA? Don’t get me wrong I like Ripken and thought he was a good player. I thought towards the end of his career he allowed the streak to cloud his judgement.

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 09:23 PM | Link to this

Glavine’s Guy, yes. You have it right. 10 years from now, if Vick’s brought Atlanta at least 1 Super Bowl ring and kept us in the playoff hunt most of his career, captured the heart of the city, made over a hundred mil, etc., and Blank offers him an above market deal for a guy with his (then) apparent diminished skills, and Vick goes to the Saints for another 2 million so he can “Do what’s right for his family,” then yeah. I’d feel about him like I do Glavine now. Screw that greedy b-tard.

Robert, what do you mean “O.J. did it.” Didn’t you hear the verdict? :-)

By GM Wannabe

November 27, 2006 09:30 PM | Link to this

DOB: You said that Giles would more than lokely be traded; who is interested in him? I would say Boston, St.Louis San Diego and maybe San Fran. other than that I can’t see what team needs him. What do you think? And who would be coming back?

By Glavines Guy

November 27, 2006 09:38 PM | Link to this

hey grinch, dont let facts get in the way of your blog, glavine was offered way more than 2 mil guarenteed money right off the bat than the braves initial offers, and oh yea, OJ is as guilty as vick is overated. OJ did it, period end of statement, but like i said, dont let facts, reason and logic cloud your objectivity or hey you wouldnt be able to post a single word on this blog. Tell the rest of the bro’s we said “wut up g, wooorrrdddddddd” looser

By Tommy G

November 27, 2006 09:39 PM | Link to this

I was touched by the post cawing me a hewo. I will pway foh you at bedtime - but I wiw not pway foh the Bwaves foh wess than $11 miyon.

By brian

November 27, 2006 09:50 PM | Link to this

Ripken was one of the top short stops of his playing time, especially in his prime. Probably most comparable to Jeter, though Ripken played in an era before expansion, smaller ballparks, and a more live ball.

By Paul

November 27, 2006 09:54 PM | Link to this

Lew,

I do not feel that compliers belong in the Hall of Fame. 300 wins or 3000 hits shouldn’t determine a player’s worthiness of being inducted. There is more to induction than stats. The best pitcher of all time (Koufax) only won 167 games in his career. Why is he inducted? By your criteria Koufax wouldn’t be inducted. To be in the hall you must have dominated the sport when you played. Just like Koufax, Gibson, Mantle, Mays, Aaron, and Cobb. Those are hall of fame players. Compare Sutton to his contemporaries: Gibson, Koufax, Drysdale, Palmer, Seaver, and Carlton. Its not close.

By brian

November 27, 2006 09:58 PM | Link to this

Glavine should be offered the same $8 million dollar contract as Smoltz for next year with incentives - personal and team (playoffs, division titles, etc) and Smoltz should be given the same incentives as well. To make room for Glavine I would definitely move Hudson if I could find a taker for his whole salary and could get a solid pitching prospect in return. If enough pitchers like Padilla get huge contracts this could spur the Orioles to make such a move (with the notable issue of Hudson/Mazzone per DOB). Ramirez and Giles will be dealt.

A rotation of Smoltz, Glavine, Hampton, James, and Davies would be solid though scares me with the injury bug. Penn would push Davies for the 5th starter. A rotation of Smoltz, Glavine, Hudson, Hampton, and James though I like a whole lot better.

DOB - what is the snag with Giles to San Diego?

By ssiscribe

November 27, 2006 10:02 PM | Link to this

ATL SOUTHSIDE — If it were me with a Hall of Fame vote (which will never happen in this lifetime; this Scribe ain’t got the resume for that), I’d never vote for McGwire and never vote for Palmerio.

There is reasonable doubt in my mind that without some sort of enhancement, neither dude puts up the type of numbers he did. The fact Palmerio flat-out lied to the American publich when he went to Capitol Hill and pointed his finger makes him all the more of a bad guy in this.

At least McGwire kept his mouth shut and looked like he felt bad for what I believe he did.

As for the Hall class of 2007, Gwynn and Ripken going in, without a doubt. For all the talk on the blog about Mac and Raffy and others who may have or may not have, how ironic that Gwynn and Ripken are also on the ballot. Two guys who played their entire careers in one place, two guys who conducted themselves with class, two guys who are considered the best of the generation.

And all we talk about is Mac and Roids and who juiced and who didn’t.

Few more points since it’s time for me to head to bed:

— Chronicle scribes deserve the Pulitizer, indeed. Anybody who thinks they’re doing what they do to make money doesn’t get it. It’s about informing the public, and these guys deserve the highest journalistic honor this side of the Wurlitzer (which we all know DOB has locked up, especially now that he’s lost his HOF vote).

— Bonds goes into the Hall, much as I detest him. He was a game-changer before he bulked up, which makes his alleged steroid use all the more unfortunate. Dude was going to be a 500 homer guy with a ton of stolen bases and RBIs. He couldn’t throw out Sid Bream from short left field, but otherwise, he was one of the best players of the era WITHOUT taking anything. Sad, sad, sad.

— Baez to Baltimore? Eh, whatever. Braves got Wickman for the ninth, a ton of options for the eighth.

— Is it April yet?

—30—

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 10:03 PM | Link to this

Should Albert Belle be in?

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 10:10 PM | Link to this

Well, if we’re gonna be so “objective and reasonable” as to descend into racial profiling, I’ve got nothing else to say, ‘cept remember to wash the sheets tonight after you spend a while looking up at your Glavine poster; you don’t want them to be dirty for your KKK rally.

Paul, I agree. Ripkin was an above average shortstop, but not HOF worthy but for the streak.

By Tommy G

November 27, 2006 10:15 PM | Link to this

I weally don’t mind being compahed to Mike Vick. We have a wot in common. He has a big contwact and I want a big contwact - and neitha of us can say, “Ahtwan Ahways”.

By athens rotgut

November 27, 2006 10:15 PM | Link to this

DOB

Yo. Been talking music around here i see since all the Braves news is going slow. No prob by me.

I meant to ask you if you were planning on going to see the Outformation/Umphrey’s McGee show the weekend before Thanksgiving at The Tabernacle. I chose to be a cheap bastard and missed out on that show and the Keller Williams show the night afterward. I instead went to see String Cheese Incident this past weekend and now im feeling a little disappointed. Ive seen the Cheese there many times before and the 2006 show just didnt get me as excited as it had in years past. Still a blast but i heard TOOO many good things about Outformation and still havent seen them live. I bought there CD and HIGHLY recommed. The lead guitar player was the guitar tech for Micheal Houser from Widespread Panic before he died so i might be showing a little favoritism.

Anyways…

I suggest Outformation Tennessee Before Daylight linkto stream some Outformation to see if you dig it. i dont want you to go buy some cd you dont dig

and i saw you talking about the Warren Haynes Christmas Jam!!!

heres a link to stream the show from 2001. Good stuff!

I think we have a good chance of signing Glavine the longer things last! I was pessimistic about the move at the beginning but its starting to sound better by the day

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 10:20 PM | Link to this

I agree most if not all benchmarks should not be used with one exception. That is 300 wins. I dont know how long the average career of Hall of Fame Pitcher is but if you look at the average number of wins per year to reach 300 you have to have some remarkable/elite consistantsy.

I think you could put a benchmark on homeruns but not by career but by HR per AB’s or avg HR total per annually.

If a guy averages 35 HR’s for 10-15 years. How many people in the history of the game has done that?

By athens rotgut

November 27, 2006 10:20 PM | Link to this

And i was too broke to spring for tickets to see Govt Mule earlier this month. Did you make that show?

I just want to run into you at a show and be like ‘Oh S** we got a celebrity in the house!’

By Robert

November 27, 2006 10:22 PM | Link to this

“Should Albert Belle be in?”

As long as he paid his admission fee

Paul has a great point about why 3000 hits or 300 wins shouldnt be automatic when he talks about the compliers. You’d have thought we learned this when we decided against 400 home runs being automatic because folks (rightly) didnt think Kingman belonged in Cooperstown.

Without the games streak Ripken becomes a marginal candidate

I’d enshrine Ron Guidry in a heartbeat before thinking twice about Don Sutton

Grinch,before I take off for another week I wanna ask you a persponal question

Are you lighter or darker green than Hulk?

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 10:28 PM | Link to this

Scribe, Big Mac’s shots looked and sounded great, though; didn’t they? Palmiero was just boring, even with the juice.

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 10:29 PM | Link to this

TennPaul and others: Yes, Andro was legal at the time. But that was because it was cutting edge and hadn’t come under scrutiny yet. As soon as McGwire’s use of it came out and it was subjected to further testing, doctors agreed it was a “prescursor” to steroids with basically the exact same properties and function. it does the same thing to the body, allowing the formation of lean muscle mass and greatly assisting in recovery, allowing for more frequent and more extensive workouts, without question aiding a player in maintaining far more strength over the course of a grueling season.

As soon as all this was learned, it was added to banned lists and also made illegal. So the fact that it wasn’t illegal at the time means nothing to me. There are drugs legal today only because they haven’t been tested and brought under scrutiny by authorities. There are a handful of chemists who make their living staying ahead of the testers and coming up with the latest generation of steroids and/or other performance enhancers that serve the same purpose. Cheating like that, to me, is entirely different than, say, scuffing the ball. One is a form of cheating that’s been part of the game for 100 years, in one version or another (spitballs, scuffing, cutting, etc). The other is better bodies through chemistry. It changes the very fabric of the game and its records. It shouldn’t be tolerated by Hall voters, period.

If you don’t think shooting your body full of drugs to gain massive amounts of lean muscle and artificially inflate your home-run totals is fundamentally wrong and fraudulent, well, fine. Personally, I do think it is just that. Unacceptable.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 10:31 PM | Link to this

Chronicle scribes deserve the Pulitizer, indeed. Anybody who thinks they’re doing what they do to make money doesn’t get it. It’s about informing the public, and these guys deserve the highest journalistic honor this side of the Wurlitzer (which we all know DOB has locked up, especially now that he’s lost his HOF vote).

What proof have they provided other than that book? Someone please tell me.

Do they have the gradjury transcripts? If so where are they? Who are their sources who * Broke the Law * by telling them what supposedly happend in the court room with that grand jury. Tell ya something folks, when someone tells you something they heard from another source thats heresay and heresay is basicaly a little bit better than a rumor. With that said your gonna belive a person who does not provide sources (dont give me freedom of press bull as these writer have tarnished the repuation of a man forever)or any actul phyical proof. These people are millionaires because of this story and have yet to prove any of it. If someone can show me hard proof other than that book then mabey I can change my opinion.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 10:35 PM | Link to this

Ripken,

Compare his stats with every single SS in the hall and of his generation.

I bet you change your opinion.

By Robert

November 27, 2006 10:36 PM | Link to this

“semantics. Of course I break laws. Who doesnt?”

Billy, my friend. I never thought I’d read a quote to compete with Cox’s famous “one bad pitch” and “whats the harm?” humdingers

I was wrong. Thanks. In a perverse sort of way, reading that made my day. My diet Sprite is sprayed all over the keyboard, but it was worth it

By Steve

November 27, 2006 10:39 PM | Link to this

Joey Belle should not be in, He was a roid head too, He just got out of baseball at the right time to not get exploited….

PLEASE BRING BACK GLAVINE!!! HOPE YOUR “GUESS” IS RIGHT DOB!! Seems to me like you’re right. If someone doesn’t return a call or answer a call when they are known for it in GENERAL in life (As you say Glav’s agent is good about that with you), usually don’t do so because they have nothing to say or they are on the verge of something happening to reveal but nothing happened YET so they wait it out until that something happens to call you back or answer. There is no logic in him answering or calling back or for that matter, nobody normally answers or calls back to say “I got nothin to say to ya”……But since they are talkin he is inevitably in the works , I believe, (hopefully).

DOB—-Side note…I saw you mentioned Tom Waits 3-Disc CD….I never really got into him or understood the hype. Im 22 years old and I know millions love him, but just a funny story for you about Tom Waits…My best friends Uncle is Tom Waits (His Dads sister married him, Kathleen Brennan). He has come to Jersey (where we live) to visit many times and he always sits in the living room in this one rocking chair in the corner with all the blinds shut and light off with sun glasses on and a guitar in hand (not necessarily always playing it). Very unique guy, I hear he never interacts with fans etc. but he is a very nice kind gentleman……Just thought Id share that.

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 10:45 PM | Link to this

Robert: lighter in shade, darker in intent. :-)

Billy, no offense but I don’t know what to tell you if you can’t tell the difference on your own. I guess Al Capone was only guilty of tax evasion.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 10:47 PM | Link to this

Just a few Ripkens complied stats.

Most home runs by a shortstop Most doubles ” ” Most extra base hits ” ” Most RBI’s ” “

13th on the all time list for doubles 17th on the all time list for extra base hits 21 on the all time list for RBI’s

How can you say he does not deserve to be in the Hall?

Check what found researching.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hiabrbi1.shtml

By TennesseePaul

November 27, 2006 10:57 PM | Link to this

The other is better bodies through chemistry. It changes the very fabric of the game and its records
Ruth is a prime example. I’d wager his waistline would have been a few inches smaller if he didn’t delve into the chemistry of brewed beverages. Why, all that extra weight probably assisted in how far he’d hit the ball.=)

Seriously though, I understand what you’re saying. I don’t entirely disagree. There is a certain level of cheating in Baseball that is built into the game. But it is a slippery slope, who was clean and who wasn’t. Some less confusing than others.

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 11:03 PM | Link to this

400 home runs will no longer be a guaranteed ticket to the Hall, because of the steroid era and subsequent fallout. Just about every writer I talk to agrees with that. But I don’t know of any similar sentiment about 300 wins. That makes you a lock for the Hall, still. Especially since there might not be any more 300-game winners after Glavine….

Speaking of Wickman (someone was), how good is that move to re-sign him for $6.5 mill looking about now? Hell, they’re giving nearly that much for setup guys these days, and Wickman was about the 4th or 5th-best closer in ‘ball over the past two seasons….

Paul, Koufax is in the Hall because he was otherwordly in three of four seasons between 1963-66, absolutely the greatest such stretch of the modern era, with a 97-27 record, 89 complete games (31 shutouts), three different seasons of more than 310 innings and more than 300 strikeouts with ERAs under 1.90 in that four-year span, including the astounding final two seasons of his career in which he totaled 53 wins (only 17 losses), 54 complete games in 84 starts, with 699 strikeouts in 658-2/3 inning. Sheer, total dominance, albeit relatively briefly.

Others _ most others _ are in for a combination of excellence and longevity. Koufax was an exception, because his was exceptional talent, never to be seen again, I’d be willing to bet my house.

ROTGUT, didn’t get to Gov’t Mule this time…. Saw them couple years back at Tabernacle when Gregg Allman sat in for Statesboro Blues and a few other tunes and it was incredible.

I’d love to go to the Christmas Jam in N.C. but don’t know if the date works for me. It sounds like a blast, though.

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 11:09 PM | Link to this

TennPaul, agreed there’s a lot of grey areas, and we’ll all have to do our bests, fans and media, to sift through them and come up with our own determinations of what was wrong and right. There will always, unfortunately, be disagreements about this entire era and how much it must be taken with a shaker of salt (and human growth hormone). Thanks for listening to my rant.

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 11:19 PM | Link to this

Grinch, if we’re ever in court facing a serious offense, we can only hope Billy is on the jury.

The man won’t believe Barry’s guilty unless someone produces a needle with Barry’s DNA and steroids dripping off it. (Nevermind that Barry has admitted using “the cream” and “the clear” and said he thought they were flaxseed oil and some sort of muscle balm.

Sworn testimony before a grand jury isn’t valid to Billy because people don’t give their sources (never mind that that’s the reason they GOT the sworn testimony, because they promised not to reveal their sources in the first place).

Billy, if you’d been around during Watergate (I’m guessing you weren’t old enough to remember; correct me if I’m wrong), then by your logic Nixon and his men wouldn’t have been as wrong as Woodward and Bernstein were for not naming Deep Throat.

By Ace

November 27, 2006 11:21 PM | Link to this

While we’re on the subject… OK not really…. its time for Greenville’s own Shoeless Joe Jackson to get in the HOF. Look at the case: www.hallyes.com

Bring back Glav. Not only is it the right thing to do, it will help the rotation this year, and I’m sure he can be a great resource for guys like Chuck james.

By David O'Brien

November 27, 2006 11:24 PM | Link to this

Steve, if that story about Tom Waits is true, you really, really are missing out by not getting to know him and maybe having him sign an album or two for you. Trust me, in 15 years you’ll be wishing you had. He’s such a brilliant artist, his music will be around a long, long time. If you’re not pulling my leg, I envy you indeed. Tom Waits in the living room … I don’t know. Sounds a bit … oh, I’ll just say damn, good for you.

By Little Bill

November 27, 2006 11:28 PM | Link to this

Where would baseball be without McGuire and Sosa battling it out for the HR crown? Hmmmmm McGuire with his steroids and Sosa with his corked bats and steroids; now that’s dream pair today right? yesirree, I am proud of those boys alright. Hmmmmm

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 11:28 PM | Link to this

Before I’m misquoted again (for 2nd straight day, no hard feeling though). I agree steroids are illegal both in the US and in Baseball this point was never brought up by me. What was brought up (by me) was the Andro fiasco and accusations against Bonds.

“The fact that it wasn’t illegal at the time means nothing to me.”

Then I can logically interpet the above comment this way; player takes a substance that is legal in the US and legal in MLB but later banned and you will hold that against him? This is an irrational and illogical in my opinion. How in the world was Mark McGwire, or anyone else for that matter, supposed to know that Andro was going to be banned? Again, I’m not talking about whether he used steroids or not just the Andro part. Then what about other performance enhancers? Are they allowed to take them? Or will they get the wrath of a sports writer who shares your same ideas on the subject. What are you going to do about greenies? Do you have the same bias against a player who used greenies? Why not?.

I have to have some fun teasing you for a minute. You talk about the fabric of the game/statistics then refer to “scuffing” as your example to elaborate on your point. Well Scuffing is directly and with out doubt messing with the fabric of the baseball thus effecting statistics that are complied while using said scuffed baseball. With that said scuffing the baseball quite literally has more impact on the fabric of the game. Figuratively? Who knows?

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 11:31 PM | Link to this

The Grinch

Difference between what?

By NumbaOneFan

November 27, 2006 11:31 PM | Link to this

Pete rose deserves to be in the HOF period. The man played the game 100% between the lines. I dont care if he bet on basebal, frequented whores, smoked weed, or stole girl scout cookies, give the man his due. Look up his numners and how many games he missed due to injury while playing several positions. the man led by example. He was a gritty balls up player and the ultimate pro when paying between the lines. Now how many of us cheat on out taxes, make friendly bets, smoke weed or worse in the privacy of our homes, and pound our chests while calling Pete Rose a disgrace…. BITE ME !!! Pete Rose is a baseball god !!!

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 11:49 PM | Link to this

DOB provide me a copy of that Grand Jury testimony so I can verify their story…..oh and by the way have you read the transcript to the grand jury? All you have is heresay…..thats it. someone told them what supposedly happend at the grand jury then they published the story. The cream and the clear he said to the grand jury. All you have is the word of 2 journalist who stands to make a crap load of money based on what they wrote.

Again, Barry Bonds probably used ‘roids however, until someone does show me incontrivertable evidence I give the man the benifet of the doubt.

I dont judge people based on what others tell me. In my opinion thats what most people have done with B. Bonds. They have taken the word of the SF chronicle journalist of which have never provided an ounce of phyiscal proof of his steroid use.

Different perspective. If a source in the intelligence community brought me a statemnt from another one of his sources about the where abouts of osama bin ladin and then would not provide information about his source I would be very skeptical and leary of that information. I’ve expereinced where this “trusted source” has been wrong more times than right.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 11:51 PM | Link to this

oh yeah I wasnt even born for that…….im 27 if your wondering.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 27, 2006 11:55 PM | Link to this

One other bone to chew on…….can you say D. Rather and CBS New?

And that was one of the most respected journalist around.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 12:04 AM | Link to this

“I’m going to vote for him. I can’t say I feel good about voting for him. … Just as baseball allowed Gaylord Perry to go out and cheat his way to 300 wins — which got him to the Hall of Fame — it allowed McGwire and all of these players to compile their stats and break their records and earn their money and accolades based on those feats. So I think I’m stuck with evaluating what the sport allowed to happen on the field. Either the ’90s happened or they didn’t. Since they happened, and the hundreds of players using whatever they used leveled the playing field to some extent, I feel more comfortable voting for players like McGwire than I do trying to pick and choose who did what, and when, and why.” — Jayson Stark, ESPN

By The Grinch

November 28, 2006 12:04 AM | Link to this

Billy…forget it, dude. No point in continuing to argue a point that’s either obvious or it isn’t.

NumbaOneFan, good post. So, how do you feel about smoking weed? :-)

DOB, my best friend’s uncle is Nick Cave. We don’t let him anywhere near the stereo, though…:-)

By Steve

November 28, 2006 12:05 AM | Link to this

DOB, Ive recieved that reaction atleast 10 times now. Seriously man, I got no reason to lie about this, like I said im not even a fan of his, never really gave him a try. Last time I saw him was a few years back at my friends house when Mule Variations came out, Haaa I remember this clear now…I believe it was 98-99? I remember I came in the living room and he’s sittin there full blown shades/guitar/black clothes/in the darkness and I come in and turn on the TV to play Playstation (now thinking about it completely disrespecting his environment/mood he had set up) But I heard a few songs and I thought his voice was absurd and the music was “out there”. I was about 14 at the time so what do you expect out of me? I was listening to Pearl Jam with the rest of the 8th graders in America. Havnt seen him since then, he usually flies my buddy and his family out to these exotic places for vacations, never really takes trips here unless he’s doing a show in NYC. He’s currently living in the outskirts of San Fran…..Oh well, I do have to say though now that you mentioned I should have got him to sign an album or two, I specifically remember my friend and his dad telling me he doesn’t sign any autographs and doesn’t like interacting with fans…..But, like I said he was a unique guy, but very kind. I know this is probably p** you off ‘cause I got friends who Ive told these stories to and they are just like “What, are you serious?? Just him and you in a living room??!! No WAY!!!” and I give the same a***** response “Yeh, he’s a nice guy but I don’t particularly like his music outside of Ice Cream Man.”

So I guess you can turn this around and rub in my face how many times you’ve sat back and shot the $h*t with Smoltz, Chipper, Glavine, Andruw, Cox and the rest….People I truly admire and love what they do.

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 12:08 AM | Link to this

I just scrolled up and read a lot of earlier posts. Let me make it clear _ I’m definitely AGAINST big gov’t and have lived a life far, far from puritanical. let’s just say if I ran for office, it wouldn’t take long for my opponent to destroy me with my past. But that was way back, and the statutes of limitations have expired, so don’t bother.

My whole point was to try and show that because steroids weren’t on the banned list in the collective bargaining agreement, doesn’t mean they were permitted (they were illegal to use in the U.S. except for medical purposes, which certainly didn’t include weightlifting). Andro is a precursor to steroids, virtually same effects; Google it if you don’t believe me. It was legal over-the-counter supplement when McGwire started taking it, but subsequently banned because sophisticated testing showed its properties were virtually same as other ‘roids. And if you think he only did Andro….

Robert, really don’t need you to tell me to think for myself. I’ve got a bookshelf of independent thinkers I’ve immersed myself in for 25 years, from Noam Chomsky to Charles Bukowski, Hunter Thompson to Dorothy Parker. Not that this proves a damn thing, but if you’re familiar with Chomsky, you’d probably agree it’d be hard for a “lemming” in today’s B.S. world to stumble upon Noam’s writings and find them to his or her liking.

But there’s quite a difference between being a lemming and simply acknowledging that any man who amasses 4,256 hits _ FOUR THOUSAND! _ 745 doubles and 2,165 runs, with a .303 career average and .375 OBP, with 10 seasons of more than 200 hits, would be a mortal lock first-ballot Hall of Famer if not for his gambling.

To say that his stats wouldn’t merit not just Hall of Fame status, but FIRST-BALLOT ELECTION, is, in my opinion, being a blind contrarian, a contrarian just for the sake of argument, not because you genuinely believe in the view.

You can make a better case against Bobby Cox, a far better case, than you can against Pete Rose’s purely baseball credentials. 4,256 hits, 756 doubles, and also a .991 fielding percentage, just FYI.

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 12:12 AM | Link to this

Grinch, that was hilarious, the line about Cave. I don’t think my man was telling the truth about Waits, do you?

Billy, sorry but I don’t think certified copies of the grand jury testimony are available for every skeptical citizen of the U.S. If you side with Barry and against a free press, that’s your prerogative, my man.

By Nathan (You know, THE IDIOT WITH NO INTEGRITY)

November 28, 2006 12:15 AM | Link to this

Pete Rose…..

HOF? One word answer. YES

Involved in MLB in any way, shape or form? One word answer. NO

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 12:26 AM | Link to this

By The Grinch

November 27, 2006 10:45 PM | Link to this

Robert: lighter in shade, darker in intent. :-)

Billy, no offense but I don’t know what to tell you if you can’t tell the difference on your own. I guess Al Capone was only guilty of tax evasion.

You write this then I respond as I’m truly not sure what your refering to. Im not going to go into What I think you mean taht I mean….blah blah blah when you could just tell me what you mean. but know you cop out and say this

Billy…forget it, dude. No point in continuing to argue a point that’s either obvious or it isn’t.

I know why you copped out, as I know what you were implying and you cant back up that part of the argument against me and with what I said.

Once again before I go to bed as I have been bloghore tonight.

All most people have to base their opinion of Barry Bonds is his achievments, public statements/actions, and what the San Francisco Journalist wrote about him. No one has answered my repeated claim of show me proof other than the book. Because thier is none. DOB keeps bringing up the Grand Jury but no one has seen those transcripts and no one but the SF journalist have information concerning the Grand Jury. I refuse to base my opinion on a source of a source. Like majority of the people who judge Bonds. They take someone elses word for something. Even though we saw with CBS News, Dan Rather(He broadcast it, its his responsibility) and fake memos.

Does anyone have anyproof other than B. Bonds gaining weight and the book by the SF journalist with grand jury testimony. If you do please show me.

By Steve

November 28, 2006 12:31 AM | Link to this

DOB, it doesn’t really matter to me if you believe me or not, Im a sane person who happens to be good friends with the nephew of an apparently really good musician…I saw you mentioned him so I figured Id share my “experiences” with him… I could really get into it and tell you some really personal stuff about him and his family and I could even bust out pictures but I dont feel compelled to do it. Again, its all 100% truth, its not even merelely intriguing, I got no reason to lie, Im not pathetic.

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 12:34 AM | Link to this

Let me clarify one thing before it’s misread: When I say I’m against big gov’t, I’m talking more about gov’t involvement in all aspects of our privates lives and the like, and not about gov’t support of public education, housing, etc. But I’m not even going there at all, because that’d be going against the very rule I’ve admonished others about _ keep politics out of this blog.

I have enough political arguments with friends and foes away from here, so this is a no-politics place, please. I just felt compelled to reply because I want no one thinking I’m for gov’t getting involved in baseball or other relatively insignificant pursuits, when so much is seriously wrong in the real world. And I’ll leave it at that.

By Steve

November 28, 2006 12:35 AM | Link to this

Bonds’s head has exploded, he has admitted to “unknowingly” using steroids, his former personal trainer is in jail for keeping his mouth shut and the guy was fully intertwined with BALCO, Bonds’ head is massive, His head is massive, There is 900000949380 people alleging he used steroids and only he denies it….I think they might have some evidence that, like DOB said, is not available to every average person who questions him, also his head is ginormous.

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 12:37 AM | Link to this

Billy, sorry, bro, but I’m with Grinch on this one. On a polar opposite view of you on Barry and the Chronicle reporters and the entire investigation. You have your view, I have mine. You sure aren’t persuading me to change it, and I’m obviously not persuading you. So I’ll drop it. Argue with someone else about it, not me.

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 12:39 AM | Link to this

Steve, that’s cool. Next time you see Mr. Waits, seriously tell him he’s got a very huge fan here.

By car3boogie

November 28, 2006 12:41 AM | Link to this

DOB MLBtradeRumor is Sox Manny Braves. Sounds like a good idea…but is it possible and would he fit in…his bat sure would.

By car3boogie

November 28, 2006 12:49 AM | Link to this

One last thought tonite.

We only have so many breathes to take on this earth and Bonds is not worth wasting one. Glavine- come on man DO IT. HALL - Ripken, Gwynn…IN The rest OUT Voters- MURPHY Please….. Baez- 19 mil…. lmao A. Jones- Contract may approach a Billion

By Steve

November 28, 2006 12:52 AM | Link to this

Yeh , Like I said I havnt seen him since 99 I think it was when he was around to do a show in NYC…. Dont worry though, Im goin to surprise you one day with some evidence since you dont seem to beiieve its possible that Tom Waits has a nephew who happens to be friends with a very massive Atlanta Braves fan…..

Anyway, Im gonna pass out, hopefully next time we speak we’ll be talkin about Glavine in the rotation….Goodnight Bud

By Steve

November 28, 2006 12:57 AM | Link to this

Always happens, right before I want to go to sleep a random person says some crazy stuff…..Sox/Manny/Braves….MLB Trade Rumor??? Where is this?? Only way they’d get Manny is if Andruw and Hudson were shipped out and Manny would get the money Andruw wouldve gotten offered and the Braves would get the same player offensively and a (I dont have a word to describe Manny on D) in LF…..JS didn’t acquire cerebral paulsy on MLB Trade Rumors before this did he??

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 12:59 AM | Link to this

Thought I was done…..

• Billy, sorry but I don’t think certified copies of the grand jury testimony are available for every skeptical citizen of the U.S. If you side with Barry and against a free press, that’s your prerogative, my man. *

You are attempting to narrow my argument down to me defending Barry Bonds, which to a certain extent I am. However, the main point I am trying to argue is directed more at judging people based on what someone produced for financial gain.

Free Press has responsibility to it as well but as more time goes bye more and more journalist abuse that right. This goes back to Bob, Journalist point about “universal entitlement”. Remember rights come with responsibilities. I am acutely aware the price for freedom of Press…. in more ways than one.

No one has answered this question though:

Have you seen anything other than the SF Journalist book and weight gain to indicate that Barry Bonds is on steroids? If so show me.

This is my point: You only have a book in which things were written and accusations made and no proof to back it up. Then you want to make judgments about a human being based on this book.

That’s all I’m saying about Barry Bonds. I am well aware that I’m in the minority on this subject and will never convince people to change their minds. But maybe they start thinking about how they process information and from what sources.

Interesting note: You would be surprised at how many people believe Bonds used steroids and have not even read the book. Talking about circular reporting taking hold.

By The Grinch

November 28, 2006 01:03 AM | Link to this

Billy, I’m not “copping out” because I can’t back up my argument, I’m simply ceasing to try to argue with someone who can’t see the forest for the trees. FYI, I didn’t read 95% of the articles about Barry. I don’t have any idea what the Chronicle writer’s said, and I didn’t follow the Grand Jury testimony. I’m not taking anyone’s word for it; I don’t need to. I can just look at the dude and I’m smart enough to figure it out. So is 95% of the rest of the world. It isn’t rocket science. It isn’t even marginally difficult. If you’re best friend is the only one you know who wears size 17 bright yellow clown shoes, and you come home one day and your wife’s lying in bed all sweaty with a surprised look on her face and a sheet clutched around her, and an open window with the curtains billowing, and a pair of bright yellow size 17 clown shoes next to the bed…well, most of us would figure our best friend had been banging our wife. But you? Well, you didn’t actually see him running barefoot down the street pulling his pants up, and even if you did he might have just lost a button, and even if he was up there in your bedroom with your sweaty, naked wife they were probably just playing Parcheezi, etc. You’d just wait for the tape to come out on e-bay or your next kid to come out with size 17 feet. What’s the point of continuing to argue?

DOB…Chomsky? Bukowski? Thompson? You’re not one of those weed-smoking, think-for-yourself kind of progressive types, are you? :-)

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 01:06 AM | Link to this

ok last one i promise……

By Steve

November 28, 2006 12:35 AM | Link to this

Bonds’s head has exploded, he has admitted to “unknowingly” using steroids, his former personal trainer is in jail for keeping his mouth shut and the guy was fully intertwined with BALCO, Bonds’ head is massive, His head is massive, There is 900000949380 people alleging he used steroids and only he denies it….I think they might have some evidence that, like DOB said, is not available to every average person who questions him, also his head is ginormous.

That is the ignorance I am talking about and is my main point. I dont mean to call you out who ever you are…..but this is truly ignorance. I can understand valid aguments from Grinch and DOB but this actully make me mad. This guy probaly hasnt read the book either. LOL

By TheWyzyrd

November 28, 2006 01:07 AM | Link to this

DOB, Was sorting through all of the Manny stuff since Buster Olney says the Red Sox are about to movie him. There was a line in one of the stories by some dude named Jeff Stackman, citing a Cubs’ source saying the Braves are interested in Manny. Heard anything? BTW: Have yoiu been listening to Dylans XM Radio show. Its incredible!!! TheWyz

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 01:09 AM | Link to this

The Grinch,

Good night….I could’ve sunk my teeth in but I’m not going to.

Billy

By car3boogie

November 28, 2006 01:11 AM | Link to this

mlbtraderumors.com

By Steve

November 28, 2006 01:18 AM | Link to this

Grinch—

That clown reference is probably the funniest thing Ive read on here, ever.

Billy—

Im simply dishing out the laymens terms of why Barry Bonds was an avid Steroid user. I was citing the obvious, just like it was the clown with big yellow shoes decking your wife, you seeing his shoes next to your bed, which contains your sweaty wife and you still don’t believe its him….

Thats probably the most classic thing Ive read in all discussions involving Bonds’ rampant, flagrant and blatant steroid use….. Billy go to the Barry Bonds web site and tell him you believe he is innocent cus none of us are buying it..

By Steve

November 28, 2006 01:24 AM | Link to this

Billy—-

What part of BARRY BONDS stating “I unknowingly USED steroids called the clear and the cream, that I got from BALCO”

Hmmm Billy durrr 1+1=2!!!

BALCO = Massive Roid Lab Bonds = BALCO client

By TheWyzyrd

November 28, 2006 01:27 AM | Link to this

DOB, Sorry, can’t read my own writing. The guy’s name is Jeff Sackmann. TheWyz

By TennesseePaul

November 28, 2006 02:13 AM | Link to this

Billy: I’m not sure how you can say it’s all heresay from these reporters. You word it so easily… some guys wanna make a buck and site an unnamed source as the key reference. But it doesn’t add up. If the stuff is made up, all fabrications and heresay, why is Bonds trainer so upset that Grand Jurry testimony is being leaked? Are you saying that guy is spending all this time in jail because of a rumor a few money skemming Frisco journalists printed? Is he in on the money making skem? Also, why did Giambi appologize? I guess no one knows. For some reason, clear out of the blue, a prominent sports hero in the largest market in America calls a press conference to appologize. You know, just to appologize. “Giambi, why are you appologizing?” “No reason. I just felt now was as good of time to appologize as any.” Or maybe it was because of the rare form of cancer that kept him out for pretty much a season? Was he the true inspiration for Matzui? Is that why Godzilla appologized after breaking his wrist attempting to field a ball?
It unravels the very fabric of the baseball continuum…

By Greg

November 28, 2006 05:01 AM | Link to this

Matzui apologized for breaking his wrists because it kept him out of the game. That’s the way Japanese players are trained to think: If they are not playing, regardless of the reason, then they are lazy. Read the magnificent baseball book “You Gotta Have Wa” by Robert Whiting for some insight into this. The Braves could use some Japanese players.

By Tom

November 28, 2006 08:25 AM | Link to this

Good baseball discussion for the end of November.

To the guy that said Ripken should not be in the Hall of Fame: You have no clue. I don’t even need to try to defend his inclusion.

As I said before, Gary Matthews signing with the Angels opens the door for the Braves to trade for Figgins. Now, I’m not sure what Anaheim is looking for so I won’t begin to throw out whom we offer but it won’t take a blockbuster by any means.

Glavine also signs with the Braves.

By BB FAN

November 28, 2006 08:45 AM | Link to this

I haven’t read all of the posts yet, but here’s a few thoughts I have on a few subjects being dicussed:

1. The Hall of Fame has racists (Cobb, others) and cheaters (Perry, Ford, others) in it now. And if there were any investigation into Ruth, it would not surprise me if he bet on baseball. He supposedly bet on everything else. He was known for his drinking and hookers. And correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t alcohol illegal (prohibition) during a period of Ruth’s playing days. You can’t tell me he stopped drinking during those years. So Rose and Jackson belong.

2. Steroids are not the only reason for the offensive explosion. I agree that it has helped but there are other factors as well. Some hitters are bigger and stronger because they are able to work out year round with their personal trainers. They don’t need off season jobs like players used to. The bats are better and made of a harder wood so the balls are hit farther. The balls are wound tighter so they go farther. There have been people who have cut balls from different eras and proven this. The stadiums are all being built smaller. The hitters are swinging for the fences. The game today is all about the 3 run homer. So you have hitters who hit .260 with 50 homers and 130 RBIs. The smaller Strike Zone. The fact that the umpires do not allow picthers to pitch inside. Pitchers are being thrown out of games for pitching inside to a hitter. That’s ridiculous.

3. Pitchers were taking steroids as well as hitters. So who’s to say how many homers would have been hit. Palmeiro, McGwire, Bonds, Sosa all deserve to be in the Hall because they were the best of their era. Even if it was the steroid era. Look at how many pitchers have been caught juicing. And then the rumors surrounding Clemens, Pettitte and others. There’s no way of knowing who took what. So you take the best of the era because both pitchers and hitters were juicing.

By Carlos Amato

November 28, 2006 08:49 AM | Link to this

Manny for AJ? Not in a million years. Manny’s presence in LF is an atrocity. Manny anywhere else in the field is unthinkable. No way. Let him DH for some AL team. And who would play CF?

This is a pitcher friendly park. People need to play good D.

And the way Manny wears his paints? Oh my god! No class at all.

By Lew

November 28, 2006 08:52 AM | Link to this

Tom-In the scheme of things, Figgins might be a decent addition to the team, but is hardly what we really need. We need pitching.

By BB FAN

November 28, 2006 08:55 AM | Link to this

One more thing: Steroids have been around since the late 30’s. Former Braves pitcher Tom House who played in the 60’s and 70’s has said numerous times that he has seen players take anything including horse steroids in his days. Everybody knows that “greenies” had been taken like candy since the 50’s. Last year was the first year baseball tested for them.

By Shaun

November 28, 2006 08:57 AM | Link to this

The Grinch,

Okay, last thing on the Crawford-Salty thing because the D-Rays aren’t likely to give up Crawford and the Braves aren’t likely to trade all those young players.

It’s very reasonable to assume Salty is going to be a good-great major leaguer, better than Carl Crawford. I would say it’s about as close to a certainty as you can get.

And, yes, Crawford is a good major leaguer who has already performed well at the big league level and he’s cheap. But Crawford is one of the top three or four players at his position. He’s not the run creator that many think he is because he not in the elite class of out-avoiders/on-base guys. In fact, he’s below average in his career at avoiding outs/getting on base (again, I remind you that these are the same things).

Yes, Saltalamacchia is still in the minors, but he’s a good out-avoider/on-base guy and outstanding for a catcher so far in his pro career.

Everyone points out his struggles in AA, and he didn’t exactly do as well as you’d have liked, but two things to keep in mind: 1) he was only 21 and 2) he was still outstanding at avoiding outs/getting on-base (.647 Out Percentage/.353 OBP).

For the record, Carl Crawford was much worse at out-avoiding/getting on-base at the AA level and he had no power. So, Salty is much farther ahead of where Crawford was.

The Braves are better off in the long-term with Saltalamacchia than they would be with Crawford.

If Salty was 18 or 19 and had just played his first pro season, then maybe I would say he’s unproven. But Salty is probably only 1-2 seasons away from the big leagues, has shown power and the knowledge of the strikezone necessary to become a good big leaguer and he’s a switch-hitting catcher. Crawford has been a good major leaguer and he’s still young and still cheap, but has never really shown the knowledge of the strikezone necessary to become one of the top four or five hitters at his position.

All this is why, if I were the D-Rays GM and the Braves somehow were to offer me Salty and all those other young players, it would be a no-brainer.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

November 28, 2006 09:21 AM | Link to this

Holy Crap, the big yellow clown shoe Parcheezi example needs to be enshrined into the hall of fame….first ballot.

By Shaun

November 28, 2006 09:31 AM | Link to this

The Hall of Fame has racists (Cobb, others) and cheaters (Perry, Ford, others) in it now. And if there were any investigation into Ruth, it would not surprise me if he bet on baseball. He supposedly bet on everything else. He was known for his drinking and hookers. And correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t alcohol illegal (prohibition) during a period of Ruth’s playing days. You can’t tell me he stopped drinking during those years. So Rose and Jackson belong.

You can make a reasonable argument that betting on the sport affects the integrity of the game more than anything. Alcoholism and racism are personal problems (or problems for the police force if they get too out of hand) and don’t affect the competitive integrity of the game.

I’m not sure if Ruth bet on the game and I don’t know if anyone knows for sure. But we know Joe Jackson took the gamblers money and Pete Rose bet on the game—both admitted as much, Jackson under oath. If someone commits a crime should we let that person off because someone in the past committed the same crime and got away with it?

By Slim Calhoun

November 28, 2006 09:34 AM | Link to this

Why aren’t the braves interested in Manny?

By Paul

November 28, 2006 09:41 AM | Link to this

Tom,

Yes I have a clue. If you read any of my posts, I feel that some compliers should not be in the HOF. My definition of a Hall of Fame player might be different than your definition. If you look at his stats some of his years WERE NOT hall of fame years. A career .276 hitter does not impress me. So before you start criticizing me, why don’t you back up your claim with something. If you want to debate thats fine. Don’t make asinine statements.

By berigan

November 28, 2006 09:49 AM | Link to this

DOB….Chomsky? Bukowski? Thompson? Keep the last two on the shelf, use Chomsky as toliet paper! :)

By Shaun

November 28, 2006 09:55 AM | Link to this

In my last post I said this:

You can make a reasonable argument that betting on the sport affects the integrity of the game more than anything.

Some will probably argue that steroids affected the integrity. For better or worse, they probably didn’t affect the competitive integrity of the game because, as someone else brought up, both pitchers and hitters from several teams were probably on them and everyone had the same opportunity to take them. They probably did affect the integrity in terms of the morality of the people who are in charge and play the game but probably didn’t affect the competitive integrity.

…That’s my view on steroids and performance enhancers.

By BB FAN

November 28, 2006 09:57 AM | Link to this

Shaun,

you don’t know if Joe Jackson took the money. I have seen reports saying he had and others saying he didn’t.

And my point is that the Hall of Fame is for players who were great, regardless of what they did off the field. Rose and Jackson are two of the greatest players of all time. They deserve to be in the hall of fame based on what they accomplished on the field.

By Lew

November 28, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this

Paul-What the hell is a complier?

By BB FAN

November 28, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this

Shaun,

Cheating affects the competitive integrity of the game. Whitey Ford and Gaylord Perry have both bragged about scuffing the ball, throwing spitters and whatever else they did. Numerous others have admitted to using greenies. That affects competitive integrity of the game.

If a player has already put up Hall of Fame numbers and then gets banned from baseball, he still deserves to be in the Hall. He should not be allowed back in the game, but what he already accomplished on the field should put him in the Hall of Fame.

By DCarp23

November 28, 2006 10:04 AM | Link to this

While mlbtraderumors.com was wrong the last time, they did offer this when discussing Manny Ramirez being traded:

“A Cubs source e-mailed that Chicago has offered Matt Murton, Bob Howry, Sean Gallagher and Donald Veal, and that Felix Pie hasn’t come up. That sounds like not quite enough, but if the Red Sox trade Manny, then turn around and sign J.D. Drew and Julio Lugo, the need for impact-quality major-league talent (say, Michael Young) is lessened. The same source indicates that the Mets and Braves are also interested.”

Clearly, a deal for Manny looks slim to none, but man that would be awesome.

By Shaun

November 28, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this

BB Fan,

I actually did a research paper on the media coverage of the Black Sox Scandal. Joe Jackson testified before a grand jury in Cook County that he conspired with gamblers.

http://www.historicbaseball.com/scplayers/jacksonmedia.html

By John Adcox

November 28, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this

Wow.

Noam Chomsky? Charles Bukowski? Hunter Thompson? Dorothy Parker? DOB, you just went up way more notches on my cool list… in fact, I may have to add some new ones. You should hang out at the Thinking Man Tavern on Howard Ave.

Ever heard the Waits cover of Somewhere?

John

By Matthew

November 28, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this

Wow, it took me forty-five minutes to read through the entire blog thus far. Two things:

1. Jackson was illiterate and may or may not have even understood what he was doing, before the Series (where he hit .406 I might point out) or during the trial (again, he was illiterate). I would vote him in for the sake of his family and for the sake of the game. Jackson spent the rest of his life trying to prove his innocence and to be reinstated.

2. Rose willingly and knowingly bet on baseball while he had a vested interest in it. He sacrificed the integrity of the game for the sake of a few bucks. If you want to put him in the Hall of Fame, then do it. Make him wait 90 years like Jackson has had to do, and let him spend the rest of his life trying to prove his innocence first. I would not trust him near a Little League Game; he may bet on it.

Also, on the Glavine and Manny issues.

1. DOB, I hope you are right about Glav coming back to the ATL. I think he knows he made a mistake going to NY, and wants to return. Fans should forgive him and welcome back their HOF pitcher. At least he won’t flip you off…

2. Manny? Please no! He has no defense to speak of, is a malcontent, and would not fit in with the rest of the Braves. Besides, he is way too expensive. Finally, why would we pick up a no defense outfielder and let go the greatest center fielder (offensively and defensively) of this era of baseball? It makes no sense; hopefully, it is not happening.

Hillbilly, I was on the Little Rock (Ch. 11) News after the LSU game. Man, I look good in a foam Hog hat!

Go Arkansas in Hoglanta and Go Braves!

By Shaun

November 28, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this

BB Fan,

Well, you could make the argument that everyone does or has the opportunity to do little things like scuffing the ball, etc. I agree that cheating is cheating, but I also would say Gaylord Perry and other HOFers who have admitted to scuffing balls, etc. didn’t make it to the Hall of Fame by cheating. In other words, cheating is not the reason they became great pitchers and everyone probably does little things that could be interpreted as cheating.

Also there are no rules that say scuffing balls, etc. warrant a lifetime ban. Obviously scuffing balls is different from conspiring with gamblers to fix a World Series or even a game.

And you say the following:

And my point is that the Hall of Fame is for players who were great, regardless of what they did off the field. Rose and Jackson are two of the greatest players of all time. They deserve to be in the hall of fame based on what they accomplished on the field.

What makes Rose and Jackson different, especially Jackson, from Gaylord Perry and Ty Cobb is that they directly affected the competitive integrity of the game and what they did could have completely ruined the faith of the fans in the competitiveness of the game. If everyone player does what Rose and especially Jackson (and the rest of the Black Sox) did, baseball becomes a joke. If they do what Gaylord Perry did—scuff or spit on the ball every now and then, it just becomes a different game in a minor way, but fans can still assume that everyone is trying reasonably hard to win.

By Tommy G

November 28, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this

Wheneva I feel afwaid I hold my head ewect And whistle a happy tune So no one will suspect I’m afwaid.

While shivewing in my shoes I stwike a cawess pose And whistle a happy tune And no one eva knows I’m afwaid.

The wesult of this deception Is vewy stwange to tell Fow when I foo the people I feaw I foo myself as well!

I whistle a happy tune And ev’wy single time The happiness in the tune Convinces me that I’m not afwaid.

Make believe you’ bwave And the twick will take you faw. You may be as bwave As you make believe you aw

You may be as bwave As you make believe you aw

i want to be a bwave, yes i do

By Matthew

November 28, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this

Shaun:

Interesting paper. I enjoyed reading it.

By Shaun

November 28, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

Jackson was illiterate and may or may not have even understood what he was doing, before the Series (where he hit .406 I might point out) or during the trial (again, he was illiterate). I would vote him in for the sake of his family and for the sake of the game. Jackson spent the rest of his life trying to prove his innocence and to be reinstated.

We should let illiterate criminals out of prison—who knows if they know what they were doing.

By Richard Cory

November 28, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

Grinch Your 1:03 AM. post to Billy was an absolute classic. One of my all time favorites. I hope the visions you created will stay in my memory a long time. On a dark cold day, I can pull up those “bright yellow clown shoes”, and have a smile. Congtats”””’

By KC

November 28, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

Okay… offer Glavine a one year - 10 million dollar deal, with a vesting 2nd year at about the same salary. If Glavine makes at least 30 starts and finishes with an ERA below 4.00, the second year of the deal will vest.

Yes, that’s more than what the Braves are paying Smoltz, so work out an extension this year with Smoltzy at 10 million for 2008. That’s still one helluva bargain for a guy like Smoltzy. True, it’s a risk to sign any one at the age of 41 (which Smoltz will be in 2008), but it’s a good risk.

Can the Braves afford these moves? As far as paying Glavine this year is concerned, moving Giles and Horacio Ramirez would save them 8-9 million on next year’s payroll. And didn’t Braves’ President, Terry McGuirk, mention that they might be able to “squeeze out a few more dollars” (which translates to a few million more dollars)?

As for the payroll situation beyond this year… 2007 will likely be Andruw’s last in a Braves uniform. Obviously if he does go, that will be bad news, but it will also free up 13 million a season so it won’t be a total loss. If Atlanta does manage to re-sign him, they will likely look to backload the deal a little to reduce his salary in 2008 and allow for more flexibility. After 2008, the contracts of Mike Hampton and Chipper Jones will expire, allowing the Braves a lot more flexibility in 2009. So in short… yes, I think they can. Maybe there’s something I’m missing, but it looks perfectly plausible to me.

Also, we all know that a leadoff hitter would be a real plus for the Braves. Pierre is off the market and it looks like Dave Roberts soon will be as well, so the free agent options are gone.

How bout this: Horacio and Giles to Baltimore for Brian Roberts and a prospect. Roberts is still cheap, so we could add a leadoff hitter while taking on very little it terms of our payroll. (If the Padres wanted to give us Linebrink for Giles, wouldn’t it have already happened by now?)

I like HoRam a lot, but I’ve always said if we can add a top-tier starter, it’s worth parting with him given his injury proneness. It took a little while for me to be convinced that Glavine still qualifies as a “top-tier” starter, but the following statement by DOB persuaded me: “Keep in mind, this is a guy who, since making significant changes his pitching style at midseason 2005, has fashioned a 20-11 record and 3.26 ERA in his past 42 regular-season starts.”

Sign Glavine, trade for Brian Roberts, and keep looking for a setup man.

By KC

November 28, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this

DOB:

Back when it would have been illegal (at least according to MLB rules) for JS to talk to Glavine, he said something to the effect of “It’s a situation that really doesn’t involve us right now”.

However, now that Glavine is officially free… have you had a chance to ask anyone from the Braves about Glavine again?

By Greg in TN

November 28, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this

Morning everyone… (at least it is here)

Just to clarify my position from yesterday. I am fine with Rose and Jackson not being in the HOF on the basis of being banned from the game. As much as Rose is concerned, he knew that betting on baseball is the number one cardinal sin, and yet, he did. It doesn’t matter one bit whether or not he bet on the Reds. From day one in the league, he was told, not to do it, and yet he did. I know that addiction to anything, gambling, smokes, alcohol, etc are powerful things, however we are talking about the integrity of the game which can never be put in question.

On the field, Rose’s stats and longevity in my mind would make him a HOFer on first ballot.

DOB, your argument on Bond’s numbers prior to becoming the Incredible Hulk being the basis for the HOF is an interesting one. Throwing away everything he did prior to 2000 I think you have a good argument personally.

Robert, you and I are on the same page as far as X amounts of most anything being an automatic ticket to the hall. I would give much more leeway to pitchers with 300 wins because I think that plateau will be much harder to reach once Glavine hits it. Everything else has little use for me anymore, it’s all about the context of how those numbers were created.

I guess no news on the Glavine front is good news. Thanks for the updates DOB! This is as much as I’ve ever posted here, but I’ve read the blogs over the last several months with interest and enjoyed it along with everyone else’s viewpoints.

By Rodger

November 28, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this

My final (& first?) word on Barroid-if nothing else comparring Pittsburgh Barry & SF Barry-just look at his damn head!. I put on weight after 30, but my head didn’t blow up like a hot air balloon-give me a break!

As for Glavine, I think I, like many fans, were hurt & upset not just that he bailed for a few million more (I still think his agent didn’t act in good faith on communications), but to the METS!

By doing that, he nearly blew his chance to reach 300. But now, we should let bygones be bygones. If we can work a deal, lets do it. It stinks no great Braves pitcher has reached 300 in a Braves uni-lets correct that mistake!

By Rodger

November 28, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

good post KC!

By BB FAN

November 28, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this

Shaun,

Joe Jackson admitting to conspiring does not mean he actually went through with it. Even him saying it’s true to the kid could have been the fact that others did throw the series. There is no proof that he actually went along with the conspiracy. The guy was illiterate so he may not have understood what he was going along with before the Series or during the trial. The guy had a great series so nobody really knows for sure. Same with Buck Weaver, however, he wasn’t a Hall of Famer.

The proof with ROse is that he bet on the Reds and other baseball games. There’s no proof Rose ever bet against his Reds. So he never “threw’ any games. The guy accomplished enough before the gambling issues so he still deserves to be in the Hall. Of course, I would never allow him to manage again. I would allow him to participate in Old timer games and events, be able to attend MLB games, but not manage in any way.

And I’m Sorry, but scuffing the ball, greasing it, whatever else pitchers have done, does affect the integrity of the game. The scuffed ball may keep somebody from homering or gatting the game winning hit. Whatever, but it does affect the outcome of the game therefore does affect the integrity of it. And it di help Perry among others make it to the Hall of Fame. He would not have won 300 games without it.

However, I do agree with allowing him, Whitey and others in the Hall because it’s part of the game. Getting an edge is a part of every sport. Same with “greenies” and steroids, it’s an edge. I’m glad MLB has banned these things but it’s all part of the game. And MLB fixes these things that should be. That’s why known scuffers and spit ballers are not banned from the Hall of Fame if they put up the numbers. I think the same should be done when it comes to McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, ect. The best of the “steroid” era deserves to be in the Hall of Fame because they were the best of their generation. No matter how strong a guy is, he still has to hit the ball and/or pitch the ball and catch the ball.

Players who have corrective eye surgery or Tommy John surgery have altered their bodies as well to see the ball better or continue pitching. Now obviously I don’t see a problem with those things, but technically, they have altered their bodies. I mean the eyes are being enhanced by surgery. Guys obviously see better after. And a ligament is being replaced in the elbow. Guys have come back throwing harder at times.

Then there are the special colored sports lenses that players have started wearing that allow them to see better.

It’s all about getting the edge on the opponent. What right does the government to say that a person can’t put something in his/her own body as long as it doesn’t harm anybody else.

But like I said, I’m glad MLB is getting rid of the steroids in baseball because it’s an unfair advantage and it’s not healthy. Just like the ‘greenie” as well so we don’t want our kids to take these things. But I’m also glad MLB has banned the spitter, scuffed ball, corked bats, and all other unfair advantages.

By Matthew

November 28, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this

Shaun:

You’re taking my point to the extreme. Criminals (except the truly insane) understand the implications of their actions when they do it. That is a completely different situation, and I should have clarified my point to avoid this leap.

My only point was that the .406 average would not equate to his trying to “fix” the series. I just am not convinced that he knew exactly what he was confessing. Probably we’ll never know. My only issue is that of intent. Jackson seemed contrite, at least according to the reports, and spent his life trying to prove his innocence. That seems to me an indication that he was at least somewhat unclear about what Landis was getting him to do. Rose on the other hand, was unrepentant and blatant in his breaking the rules of the game. Maybe I shouldn’t, but I see a difference between the two.

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this

Grinch, after seeing some refer to your clown-shoe post from last night (I’d already logged off just before you wrote it), I went back to read what all the fuss was about. Some said best post of the week or whatever.

I’d have to disagree. More like funniest post of the YEAR. That was freakin’ hilarious, man. Great stuff.

Billy, if you’ve recovered from last night and still have any interest in defending your stance, maybe you should take it up with Bob Ryan, Wally Matthews and other respected columnists writing about it the past couple days. They’ve still got their Hall votes and aren’t voting for McGwire. Here’s part of what Wally had to say in Newsday (and by the way, remember, Billy, that I said I would’ve voted for Bonds simply because I thought he had Hall numbers before he became a pumped-up power hitter who admitted using the “cream” and “clear” from Balco:

Matthews wrote:

Under no circumstances will the name “Mark McGwire” appear on my Hall of Fame ballot, and I’m hoping that at least 96 percent of my comrades in the Baseball Writers Association of America think the same way.

That would mean that not only would McGwire not get to take his 583 tainted home runs to Cooperstown next year, but that his name would come off the ballot, never to reappear until some future Veterans Committee, probably made up of some of the guys he shared a chemist with, try to backdoor him into the Hall.

At that point, it’s out of my hands. But for now, and until Newsday follows the lead of The New York Times and some other papers in prohibiting its writers from voting for the Hall of Fame, it is my obligation to do the right thing for a sport that refuses to do right by itself or its history.

A general rule of thumb in voting for a Hall of Fame is the sniff test. If it doesn’t smell immediately like a Cooperstown-quality career, it probably isn’t. McGwire’s career smells like a lot of things, none of them good.

It doesn’t matter to me that he never failed a drug test, because in baseball’s wink-wink drug policy, there was no test to fail. Nor does it matter that at the time McGwire “admitted” to using androstenedione, the substance was not on baseball’s banned list.

All I know is, the guy was Dave Kingman until 1998, King Kong afterward. Anything he did from 1998 on, I have to suspect, was aided, if not caused, by performance-enhancing drugs. That doesn’t smell right to me. In fact, it stinks.

At the time, a lot of us suspected McGwire, but shamefully, few wrote about it, out of naivete or worse, getting caught up in baseball’s manufactured feel-good Summer of ‘98. Some guys even wrote books about it without once mentioning the word “steroids.” Those of us who did were branded party-poopers, witch-hunters, mudslingers. It is not satisfaction enough to know we were right. Now is the time to slam that pitch too many of us fouled off or looked at eight years ago.

In a way, it’s easy to leave McGwire off this year’s ballot; it boasts so many more deserving candidates. Next year will be more of a test, when the only real new blood in the race will be David Justice, Tim Raines and Shawon Dunston, a Hall of Fame good guy.

But that doesn’t matter, either. I wouldn’t vote for McGwire if the only other candidates on the ballot were the Seven Dwarfs.

To honor McGwire is to dishonor Roger Maris and Frank Robinson and Harmon Killebrew and Ken Griffey Jr. and Mike Schmidt and Mickey Mantle and everyone else who hit their home runs using pine tar and real, not manufactured, muscle.

In five or six years, it will be the same story with Barry Bonds, who already has been allowed to spit on Willie Mays and Babe Ruth and by then may even have besmirched Hank Aaron. But at least in Bonds’ case, his pre-steroid era numbers are good enough to warrant serious consideration. If only I could cast half a vote for Natural Bonds and deduct half for Bionic Barry.

But that’s a quandary for another day. Next week, the problem will be McGwire, and for me it is no problem at all.

I went into journalism with the idealistic belief that somehow I could change things, that I could expose the bad guys and elevate the good guys.

Over the years, I have learned it often is just beating your fists against a steel door. However, we must continue to try.

Leaving McGwire off a Hall of Fame ballot is my try. If enough guys feel the same way, that steel door will finally come down.

By BB FAN

November 28, 2006 11:45 AM | Link to this

Shaun,

“We should let illiterate criminals out of prison—who knows if they know what they were doing.”

Of course not. A guy that is illiterate and kills somebody is different.

There’s no proof Jackson actually went along with it during the series. The point of him being illiterate is that he may have just agreed to agree with the other players. There’s no proof of him taking the money and actually “throwing” the series.

By Lew

November 28, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

KC-Where you been, Dude? I think a trade of Horacio and Giles for Brian Roberts would be a waste. We don’t need a leadoff hitter and if you’re going to trade for a second baseman, why bother trading Giles? We need to get pitching in return. I’m perfectly comfortable with Aybar at second and leading off. Pitching will get us back to the top. A leadoff hitter won’t.

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

KC, no, because they still won’t talk about it. Glav’s agent isn’t returning calls, either. Braves never comment on negotiations, but both sides are keeping this incredibly secretive. There are no leaks yet, so no way of knowing if any progress has been made, etc.

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

By the way, so much for Marcus to Padres _ they’re about to sign Counsell, a guy I thought the Braves should have signed as an insurance guy to play three infield positions as a backup and be ready to replace Giles if Aybar or Prado (or Escobar) wasn’t ready.

Oh, well….

Do you guys realize that Baez is going to make as much per season in his three-year deal with Baltimore to be a setup guy as Wickman is going to make to close for the Braves next season? Unbelievable.

Manny-to-Braves rumor? Have heard absolutely nothing of that, and it makes absolutely no sense.

By MGL

November 28, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

For the experts — If we sign Glavine before Friday, Dec 1, don’t we owe the Mets Type A Free Agent draft picks. If it is done on Friday or later, we don’t. Am I correct? If so, why do it before Friday if we are going to do it?

By The Plagiarizer

November 28, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

What would I do? I’m glad you asked.

1. Andruw Jones stays put for ‘07.

The Atlanta Braves will need Andruw Jones in the middle of the lineup to win in ‘07. Period. His run production simply cannot be replaced. Atlanta cannot afford to give up 130 RBI and gold glove defense.

2. Sign Tom Glavine for 1-year @ $7M with a $7M option for ‘08.

Last season, Glavine posted 15 wins with a respectable ERA of 3.82. I’ll take that.

3. Sign Scott Podsednik for 2-years and $6.5M.

Though he did not match his first year numbers with the White Sox, he still ended the year with decent numbers (.261, 86 R, 40 SB, .330 OBP). He is entering his 5th full season in the majors at 30-years of age. He earned just $2.15M in ‘06. There is a fairly good chance that the White Sox will non-tender Podsednik as they are searching for a new lead-off man this winter. (As for Carl Crawford, he doesn’t make as much sense without costing Atlanta budget-breaking money and big time prospects. Tampa Bay will want top tier prospects and not cast-offs for their multi-talented left fielder. We’re talking more than Horacio Ramirez, et al in this case.)

3. Trade Marcus Giles to the Padres for Scott Linebrink.

No-brainer.

4. Sign Mark Loretta for 1-year @ $3.5M with an option for ‘08.

I’d like a veteran with solid fundamentals at around the $3M per season mark to replace Giles. That is what makes Loretta a nice fit for the short-term. Loretta, 35, put up good numbers for the BoSox (.285, 59 RBI) and is a career .299 hitter. By the time the internal candidates are ready for an everyday job, Loretta will be moving on.

5. Re-sign Daryle Ward for 1-year and $1M plus incentives.

Again, no-brainer.

Here it is. Andruw is Andruw. Glavine gives the Braves something that Horacio Ramirez, John Thomson and Jorge Sosa were unable to give the Braves last season, a proven arm to steady the middle/back of the rotation. (He also becomes the mentor for Chuck James.) Podsednik gives the Braves speed at the top of the order. Linebrink gives Atlanta a clear bridge to Bob Wickman. Loretta gives the Braves a solid defender at 2B and a veteran at the bottom of the order. Ward gives Atlanta a steady threat off the bench.

OK… Talk amongst yourselves.

By Richard Cory

November 28, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

LEW Complier. A responsive pry bar.

By Bravo Nam

November 28, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this

Billy (TBFNB)

Given your life philosophy, I’m surprised you get anything done. I’m also surprised that you bother reading what any journalist has to say, including this blog, coz it’s a waste of time- they only give their opinions, right?

DOB

Absolutely agree with you- don’t waste another second justifying your stance- if you pump your body full of something that gives you an advantage over other clean athletes, you’re cheating- fu** whether there is a law at the time saying whether you can do it or not- absolutely irrelevant- it’s totally against the spirit of the game.

Manny for AJ

Not worth speculating on for a second- AJ is NOT going to a cold weather city like Boston.

By Rodger

November 28, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this

I’m not real sure I buy the arguments about McGwire-he hit a lot of homers from the time he broke into the league. Not to say he wasn’t juiced from the start, but I don’t remember him as ever scrawny, as some describe, with the kind of changes Bonds had. He came into the bigs as one of the “bash brothers”.

By Shaun

November 28, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this

Joe Jackson admitting to conspiring does not mean he actually went through with it. Even him saying it’s true to the kid could have been the fact that others did throw the series. There is no proof that he actually went along with the conspiracy. The guy was illiterate so he may not have understood what he was going along with before the Series or during the trial. The guy had a great series so nobody really knows for sure. Same with Buck Weaver, however, he wasn’t a Hall of Famer.

Taking money and having knowledge of a conspiracy is the same as going through with it.

By Lew

November 28, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this

Richard-I’m not sure that’s what Paul had in mind. I think he meant compiler-or a player who plays a long time and compiles stats for HOF induction. Anyway, I don’t agree with him whether or not he can spell. As far as I know, a complier is someone who goes along with the rules.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this

Enough about B. Bonds from me as most of you clearly are not getting my point.

The Manny rumor could be correct but more so as a third team in a 3 way deal.

By BB FAN

November 28, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this

Glavine may not be the last the 300 game winner. Everybody forgets about Randy Johnson who has 280 wins. And he plays for a team that scores a lot of runs. He won 17 last year despite a horrible ERA. I know he’s signed for 2007 but I’m not sure about 2008. However, if he’s 5-10 wins shy of 300 after 2007, I’m sure somebody would give him a chance at winning his 300th with them. It will jsut depend if Johnson wants to pitch for 1 more season or not.

By DCarp23

November 28, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this

DOB-While I think there are about 500 trades more likely to happen than Manny coming to Atlanta, I’d have to disagree with you that it makes “absolutely no sense.”

If you concede that there is no chance Andruw is going to return to Atlanta after this season, I think there are ways where it could certainly make some sense. First, you are trading a good hitter for one of the five best hitters in baseball. Second, while the Braves would be taking a hit defensively in centerfield, AJ is not what he once was (and stats back that up), and Francoueur and/or Langerhans (if you trust his bat) could both play a decent centerfield. Third, you’d get a piece for two years as opposed to the one that you’d get from AJ. Fourth, the Red Sox have both the ability to and the track record of eating as much salary as they need to. Fifth, Andruw would be going to one of a handful of teams that could lock him up long term for an infinite amount of money (assuming he would want to play in Boston-which would be a big assumption).

That being said, I would be SHOCKED if the trade went down. However, I would also be shocked if the Braves didn’t at least inquire about his availability, which is all that the blog said that they had done.

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 12:27 PM | Link to this

Plagiarizer, I like some of your ideas (given your screen name, are they actually yours? … kidding), but Counsell for Linebrink is far from a no-brainer for the Padres, who don’t want to deal Linebrink and are about to sign Counsell to a two-year deal to be their second baseman.

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this

Oh, and Plagiarizer, the Giants are reportedly about to sign Loretta to be their second baseman

By rammerjammer

November 28, 2006 12:34 PM | Link to this

DOB,

If JS signs Glavine, does he turn around and try to unload Hudson for pitching prospects and/or a LH reliever?

Or does he keep Hudson and hope for a rebound?

Thanks for the info on Counsell. I agree, would’ve been a perfect utility guy (unless JS/BC think Aybar already is).

The market for Giles seems to be shrinking daily. Maybe the Marlins’ VP was right when he said the Braves were working on an extension, not a trade.

By Voice of Reason

November 28, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this

Cheatin’ is cheatin’. There is no justification or excuse. There is also the question of integrity. Mac’s steadfast refusal to talk about the past, Sosa’s sudden inablilty to speak the English language, Palmero’s Clintonesque finger-wagging denial; they are all solid indicators of their character, or lack thereof. And Barry “The Cream” Bonds is the worst. That’s one dude that should trade his IQ for his hat-size. I’ve got no use for any of them. Am I going on circumstantial evidence? Yeah, I am. But, this is the court of public opinion. Appeal denied.

By Paul

November 28, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this

Lew,

A compiler is a player that plays for many years and compiles enough hits, homeruns, wins or any other benchmark stat to be inducted into the hall of fame. Ripken is a perfect example. 21 seasons he accumalated over 3000 hits and hit over 400 home runs. Yes, he played every day. If you look at his season to season stats, they are not impressive. He hit .300 three times. Look at the years between 1987 and 1990. Those are not hall of fame numbers.

By Alan

November 28, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this

Lew, I’m with KC on a deal with the O’s for Brian Roberts and here’s why: He’s a switch-hitter with speed and he’s a very good leadoff hitter. Plus, he’s an excellent defensive second baseman. Now, I’m not aware of his contract status, so that likely would influence whether or not the Braves would make such a trade. My guess is that he may be in the middle of a or 3- or 4-year contract, and if the numbers are about what Giles is due to get in arbitration ($5M or so), I believe it would be prudent to try to make the trade - so long as another “big” contract (say, Ramirez or even Hudson) also is included. This would allow the Braves the payroll flexibility to afford Glavine. I like Aybar as a utility man - I don’t think he’s the “answer” as the leadoff man on a contending team. Look at the table-setters for the Mets (Reyes) and the Phillies (Rollins). Having our own “R” at the top of the order would be a major upgrade over what we suffered through last year. One last comment for now: Whoever called Pete Rose a baseball “god” must be related to him. He’s no more a god than I am. What he is is a jerk. He was a terrific baseball player, and what he did on the field definitely merits election into the Hall of Fame. It’s his off-the-field antics that disqualify him - and justifiably so. Betting on games that your team is playing - you don’t see the harm in that?! Or the arrogance?! Or the stupidity?! Come on. Gaylord Perry is a choirboy compared to Pete Rose.

By Shaun

November 28, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

“We should let illiterate criminals out of prison—who knows if they know what they were doing.”

Of course not. A guy that is illiterate and kills somebody is different.

There’s no proof Jackson actually went along with it during the series. The point of him being illiterate is that he may have just agreed to agree with the other players. There’s no proof of him taking the money and actually “throwing” the series.

1)I did not say murderers, I said illiterate criminals.

2) The evidence that Jackson went along with conspiring with gamblers? He admitted under oath to a grand jury. He did take the money. He admitted to conspiring with gamblers. What he did in the series is irrelevant. He knew what he was doing was wrong and he did it anyway. Just like Pete Rose. And for better or worse the consequences of gambling on baseball or conspiring with gamblers is worse than spitting or scuffing a ball or drinking too much or shouting a racial slur.

By Paul

November 28, 2006 12:44 PM | Link to this

sorry for the spelling mistake.

By Matthew

November 28, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this

DOB:

Good blog today. It is going smoothly and good discussions are happening. Thanks for putting it together.

If the market is shrinking for Giles and he stays, does that keep us from signing Glavine? We were looking to bank the $6.5 mil or so Giles would make and use it for Glavine (I presume) so would that keep Glavine out of ATL? What teams are still out there looking for an All-Star 2B who can afford Giles?

By The Plagiarizer

November 28, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

Mr. O’Brien, as much as I’d like to take credit for those ideas, alas, no, they are not mine. Hence the name Plagiarizer. But, then again, I couldn’t exactly post Grant McAuley’s ideas under my regular screen name, now could I?

By TennesseePaul

November 28, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

Another point on this Roid HOF topic.
To say a roid user cannot be allowed in because he used roids to gain an unfair advantage assumes that using roids does give you a better edge. But even here I’m not entirely sold. Hold on a minute. Take a look at the countless number of minor leaguers, and pro level guys, who have been caught and/or punished or rumored to used roids. It’s about 50/50 pitcher hitter. On top of that, it seems for every super star, there are a handful of nobodies who accomplished nothing even with the “chemical edge” roids provides. It would appear that the advantage roids offers is fairly limited. In that, it appears to enhance the skill of the player, but doesn’t improve the skill. If you can’t play this game, roids isn’t going to help. If you can’t hit a fast ball, curve ball, slider, bulking up isn’t going to help. At the same time, if “everyone” is doing it, then the playing field is “level”. It’s a juiced up level, but level. The juiced up hitter is batting against a juiced up pitcher.

Maybe, instead of banning all roid users, we ought to look at the roid era and then award enshrinement to the few truely elite players from this era. If Mac’s 586 homers are not good enough to get in, then Sheffs 490 homers probably aren’t. Basically, the bar is raised, in that the traditionally amazing numbers are not a free pass to the Hall. And as much as I dislike Bonds, I think he should be in. He was a HOFer before he swelled up. Big Mac, Sosa, Palmero… these guys maybe the really good players of the era that don’t make it in. The Dawson, Murphy types.

I don’t know. Just some thoughts on the matter. I can’t vote anyway so whatever.

By Voice of Reason

November 28, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this

Could the O’s recent stockpiling of relievers be a precursor to another trade to be made? A trade to a team in need of relievers?

By Paul

November 28, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this

Lew,

Who made up those rules? Why do we use those benchmarks? By your definition Sandy Koufax, the greatest pitcher of all time, would not be inducted. It makes no sense. There is way too much subjectivity and not enough objectivity when voting. Thats the problem with the hall of fame. No clear cut criteria. Thrown in the veteran’s committee, now its a complete mess. Some of the players that are in the HOF should not be in.

By Jason

November 28, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this

Hmmm… AJ for Manny??? that would defeat all purpose in trading Andruw. However, a third team in the trade could be better for everyone. How bout the Angels. Manny to the Angels, AJ to the BoSox, and Ervin Santana, Chone Figgins, Coco Crisp, and Craig Hansen to the Braves. That would give us a starter, a Lead Off man, a Set up man, and an every day OF bat, all for less money than we pay AJ. Thoughts?

By Bravo Nam

November 28, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

DOB

Bonds to the HoF- a tough decision- not at all. He shouldn’t go- there’s no way of ever proving at what point he started cheating, so to work out whether or not he did enough before he started cheating is irrelevant- if you cheat, you should be out- just like Rose and all the others- if not, baseball in the US becomes a laughing stock, with the integrity of Cooperstown being sullied by allegations of cheats/cheating/unsportsmanlike conduct etc- this is wrong coz it casts a question mark over all the good guys there- by the way, just coz scuffing the ball etc. has been part of the game doesn’t make it right- it’s still cheating.

Put steroid use and cheating into perspective

Let’s say you or your son were a professional ball player who believed in not artificially enhancing their performance or cheating in any form. You have a magnificent career that matches anything that’s come before it. Unfortunately, coz half the major leaguers are cheating in some form or another, your stats, while terrific, pale in comparison with many other players. You would’ve been a lock to get into Cooperstown, but because MLB has a lax policy on drug enhancing performance, you’ll never get in- as while your numbers are comparable to Mays and Aarons- they don’t compare to the crop of drug enhanced athletes you’re now competing against.

A future scenario that could’ve happened if MLB hadn’t come down hard on drugs- all baseball supporters and fans need to come down hard on all forms of cheating coz it robs clean, honest players of their just desserts, and undermines the integrity of the game.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this

When did I ever say McGwire deserved to be in the Hall? Don’t worry you don’t have to go back and look at all the post because I already did. What was criticized was the Andro comments and judging Barry Bonds based on limited FACTS. And the other point I made was how much stock people take in what journalist writes. The journalist thru another source who supposedly was at the Grand Jury stated what Bonds supposedly said about the Cream and the Clear. I’ve never heard Bonds state he used steroids.

For the third time I think Bonds used steroids however, with out concrete proof I will give the man the benefit of the doubt. All the points you have raised are circumstantial and have no FACTS. Please don’t bring up that damn grand jury again because none of us were present for that and cant comment for an absolute certainty what was said.

Further, more than defending Barry Bonds I’m attacking the inability of people to not judge a person until there is proof other than hear say and perceptions. If you continue to judge people base on those simple facts that your prerogative. I’m truly not posting about this anymore as I’m not changing your opinion and your not changing mine.

Nam tell me oh wise one, what is my life philosophy. Please tell me. Dude that was a stupid post. I dont belive everything I read….your absoulutely right. I take it at face value. And attempt to get muliple sources of information.

By Voice of Reason

November 28, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this

Alan:

Brain Roberts’ contract: 1 year/$3.075M (2006), plus $25,000 in incentives.

By Bravo Nam

November 28, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

DOB

Signing Counsell is a Giles deal breaker. I agree with a comment you made a while back arguing that the Braves should sign Counsell- for so many reasons he was a good pick up- it’s annoying that the Braves didn’t make a run at him.

Latest: looks like Wolf to Dodgers in 1 year deal and Eaton to Phils in 3 year deal.

By Greg

November 28, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

The Phils are paying Adam Eaton $8 million a year. Tom Glavine would have to really want to play at home to accept relative chump change from Atlanta. Can we afford between $7.5 million and $10 million? That would seem to be about right for an inning eater like Glav.

By TennesseePaul

November 28, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

Taking money and having knowledge of a conspiracy is the same as going through with it.

Not really. You can come up to me, bribe me with a million dollars on the principle that I swing and miss every time at bat. I can know you did this. I can take your money. Then I can go hit every pitch I see 600 feet to dead center. I didn’t “go through with it” but I did just take a lot of your money. And there isn’t much you can do about it. It’d be like calling the cops because someone stole all your pot.

By Shaun

November 28, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this

A compiler is a player that plays for many years and compiles enough hits, homeruns, wins or any other benchmark stat to be inducted into the hall of fame. Ripken is a perfect example. 21 seasons he accumalated over 3000 hits and hit over 400 home runs. Yes, he played every day. If you look at his season to season stats, they are not impressive. He hit .300 three times. Look at the years between 1987 and 1990. Those are not hall of fame numbers.

Ripken posted a better than average OPS in 13 seasons, 12 of those at SS. It’s virtually unheard of for a shortstop to be such a great hitter for that many seasons. He created 100 runs in a season six times. He created over 5 runs per 27 outs 10 seasons. He ranks 30th all-time in runs created, ahead of Griffey Jr., Bagwell and Reggie Jackson….And that doesn’t even touch on his defense, which was great from all accounts. His range factor and fielding percentage was much better than average throughout his career.

Ripken is easily one of the top 5 SS of all-time. How does that not make him a Hall of Famer? I think you are forgetting that a lot of his career was in a low-offensive era and he played shortstop.

By Mitch

November 28, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this

Dear Mr O Brien,

   I am in complete agreement with your column. I wish that whatever Glavine decides to do, that he would just do it already, and get it over with. 
    I've been very ambivalent about what Glavine's real intent is here. Part of me keeps thinking that if he really wanted to go back to the Mets, he would have negotiated a middle of the road, 10 to 11 mil a year deal, either one year with option for a second, or two year deal, with the Mets, and it would have been done already. The fact that he hasnt, would indicate that his heart might want to go back to the Braves to win 300, but, his economic sense, and his wallet, would keep him with the Mets, for a likely 3 to 4 mil more a year.

I really dont know which way Glavine is going to go. Last week, I thought he would definitely be returning to the Braves. Now, I’m not so sure. I’ve read other commentaries on Glavine, saying that people wouldnt be surprised either way, whatever decision he makes. My gut, at this moment, is that I believe he will return to the Mets. I think if he wanted Atlanta, we might have heard something yesterday or today. Many I’ve spoken to said he is just using the Braves, to posture himself, to get more money from the Mets. That might be a legitimate argument. I say, at the end of the day, he will take the money, just like he did in 2002, and go for 10 to 11 mil a year, from the Mets.

Mitch

By Greg in TN

November 28, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

Looks like the number of options that JS has for dealing Giles are closing one by one. The wait to see what news comes out of the Glavine situation looks to be more and more important to the team with the Pads signing Counsell (I agree with all the sentiment about us going out and signing him, he’s been a thorn in our side going back to the 97 NLCS).

By Voice of Reason

November 28, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

Greg:

Smoltz will make $8M in ‘07. You can’t really pay Glav more than you’re paying Smoltz, can you?

By Shaun

November 28, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

That still doesn’t excuse Joe Jackson—he took money, knew it was wrong, but still did it. If you called the cops because someone stole your pot, both you and the thief are guilty, aren’t you?

If you take my million dollars, you still did something wrong. The rules against it are pretty clear, or should be.

By Bravo Nam

November 28, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this

Billy

Your life philosophy- in relation to believing whether something is fact or not- you need multiple sources before you believe anything- get real.

So, anything DOB reports from the Braves needs to be checked out by multiple sources?

She says she loves you, but you need to check out multiple sources before you believe it?

1+1=2 Not so fast, need to check that out.

JS says he just made a trade- hang on- gotta check that out.

Get off it. Who you kidding? If you multiple checked everything you heard, you’d never get anything done.

The reality is that you, like everyone else, choose to believe some sources, while others you check on multiple levels coz you either don’t like what they have to say, they don’t fit your bias, or you don’t like them.

In relation to the Bonds/McGwire steroid thing, you’re using this excuse of multiple sources coz it suits your argument- bottom line with Bonds is that there is more than enough evidence to show he was on roids and cheating- show some Robert style courage and go out on a limb- you like the guy and don’t want him to be guilty.

By Lew

November 28, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

Paul-I’m not using any particular set of stats (i.e. 300 wins, etc) to guage eligibility. But just because a player plays for 20 years to put up the numbers shouldn’t be reason for exclusion. Sure Niekro and Sutton and Nolan Ryan pitched for 20 years, but their CONSISTENCY has to count for something. Besides, there really aren’t that many players to put up 300 victories, no matter how many years they played-same with 3,000 hits. You have to play a good long time at a consistent level to put up your numbers. And BTW-I think Koufax was the best I ever saw, no matter how many wins he had. The only player elected to the HOF recently that I had a problem with was Ryne Sandberg. Oh, and you had been typing COMPLIER, not COMPILER. Repeatedly.

By Braves20

November 28, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this

Mitch in TN raises a good point. Is it too early say say Rome is burning or do we wait until every lead-off hitter and 8th inning guy is signed/traded for by some other club? Isn’t this what happened last year? By the way, doesn’t it seem that Arizona got a lot more for Estrada than they gave up a year ago - even considering a better year by Johnny E?

By BB FAN

November 28, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

Just because you wrote a paper on how the media looked at the Black Sox scandal doesn’t mean you know that Joe Jackson took the money and knew what he was doing. You have no idea, so stop acting like you were there in 1919 along side Jackson and the other 7 when everything went down. You don’t know sh!t unless you have a recording of Joe Jackson saying “I took the money and I knew what I was doing.” Even then, it would have to be proven that the recording was not pieced together from different interviews.

I have read different reports over the years “proving” he didn’t take the money and others “proving” he did take it. So I have no idea. But because there’s doubt, he should be allowed in the Hall.

And if scuffing a baseball causes an opponent to lose a game then it does affect the integrity of it. Because if the guy didn’t scuff the ball, he would not have beat his opponent. It still changes the outcome. Pretty simple.

You act like you are the expert on everything. Newsflash, you aren’t.

And for your information, if a convicted criminal proves he didn’t know what he is doing, then he is usually committed to a mental institution or given probation, depending on the seriousness of the crime. Now, if he is just illiterate, but knew what he was doing, it doesn’t matter. He will get the same punishment as anybody else.

By TennesseePaul

November 28, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this

That still doesn’t excuse Joe Jackson—he took money, knew it was wrong, but still did it. If you called the cops because someone stole your pot, both you and the thief are guilty, aren’t you?

I think the key issue here is the “knew it was wrong.” I’ve heard it argued quite a bit that he didn’t know what was going on. All he knew was some guy gave him a pile of cash. So he took it. He was broke and playing for a stingy owner.

If you take my million dollars, you still did something wrong.
Say you gave me a million dollars and I took it. There is nothing wrong about that. Maybe if I didn’t pay taxes on it but that’s about all you could “prove”.

Still though, none of what you just wrote means Joe “went through with it.” For him to “go through with it” he’d have to hold up his end of the bargain, which, from a statistical stand point, doesn’t appear to have been the case. It doesn’t appear that Joe “went through with it.” Similarly, if I was given a gun to murder a man, and I took the gun but didn’t murder the man, I would not be guilty of murder. Maybe illegal arms trafficing, but not murder.

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this

Billy, you wrote: “The journalist thru another source who supposedly was at the Grand Jury stated what Bonds supposedly said about the Cream and the Clear. I’ve never heard Bonds state he used steroids.”

Simple question for you: If it’s all bogus and Bonds never said it, etc, why doesn’t he sue for defamation of character? Seems like it would be an open-and-shut case, an easy win for him, since he’s clearly lost millions upon millions in potential endorsements from the book and its writers? I mean, if they have no proof, if the testimony they got leaked to them was bogus, etc, why doesn’t Barry just sue their pants off? Hmmm, could be it because he knows he has no chance in hell of winning such a suit?

By BravesFaninRockies

November 28, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Thanks for the props a couple of posts ago. Happy Holidays to you, too.

Lew,

Ryno deserved to get in, much as Chipper will as well. He was arguably the best second baseman of his era, and one of the top half-dozen ever. There aren’t many 3B in the hall either, and Chipper’s career clearly puts him in Cooperstown.

What will be an interesting debate is, What do you do with Jeff Kent? He’s obliterating all the career offensive records for second basemen. Had he spent his career at first or third, we’d say he was a good offensive player at a time people put up stratospheric numbers. Since he’s been at second so long, does he get the “middle infield” discount?

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

Again, in the event I’m ever charged with a crime and go before a jury, I could only pray to have such a skeptical jury member as yourself on the panel, Billy.

If a jury of one’s peers was made up entirely of the likes of you, very few people would be convicted. Circumstantial evidence, even a mountain of it, would never be enough. You’d require DNA or a confession.

By Shaun

November 28, 2006 01:53 PM | Link to this

BB Fan,

Whether he actually took the money or did not, he admitted to a grand jury that he conspired with gamblers. At the very least he knew that the series was being bought; if he didn’t know that, why didn’t he just tell the grand jury that he didn’t know anything was going on? If someone admits guilt, what’s supposed to happen? “You admitted guilt but since you were illiterate and possibly didn’t know what was going on, you’re off the hook.”

By BB FAN

November 28, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

November 28, 2006 01:44 PM post. Well said.

By Shaun

November 28, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this

TennesseePaul,

If Joe Jackson didn’t know what was going on or didn’t know right from wrong, why didn’t he just say that to the grand jury instead of admitting he conspired with gamblers?

By Greg

November 28, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

Voice of Reason:

Yeah, that’s a tough one about Smoltz. We’re lucky to have him. On the open market this year, he might pull down $15 million on a multi-year contract.

But I can’t see Glav signing for less than Adam Eaton and Randy Wolf.

It’s crazy the amount of money these journeymen pitchers are getting. Man! I wish my parents had let me stay in the backyard throwing at my Pitchback instead of making me do my homework.

Ahhh…I probably still wouldn’t have made it. But dear Lord, these days you don’t even need to be great to cash in. Mediocre hitters and pitchers both are scoring mad money.

Gary Matthews Jr.? The guy couldn’t hit water if he fell out of a boat.

Adam Eaton? Good record in Diego, OK in Texas. But he’ll get lit in Philly.

Greg

By The Grinch

November 28, 2006 02:10 PM | Link to this

Morning, all. Jeez, you guys are easily amused. :-) Thanks for the props, anyway.

DOB, who’s to say DNA evidence is conclusive? What if the scientist who analyzied it was out to make a buck for the other side? I mean, you weren’t there, right? And if you were, you’d need the same credentials the scientist had to know whether he was lying to you or not. And even then, how do you know you wouldn’t be lying to yourself? No, the entire 12-man jury would have had to have been present at the murder itself (including all the prospective jurors who were eliminated, just to be fair).

I disagree about Sandberg, and Chipper hurt his chances by playing so much left field (though that wasn’t his fault). I also think the hall should have a special wing for players who weren’t enshrined due to shady circumstances, but definitely put up the numbers (Jackson, Rose, Bonds, etc). I know, you could argue that’s enshrinement, but I meany without all the hooplah and ceremony, just like a “wall of shame” type thing with their names and stats, and a blurb next to them explaining the deal. They still deserve to be in there some way, I feel. Just MO.

By Nathan (You know, THE IDIOT WITH NO INTEGRITY)

November 28, 2006 02:18 PM | Link to this

Grinch

DOB is DEAD ON! Fantastic take with the clown shoes reference.

Here is another piece of wisdom, for an esteemed individual of “all things knowing”.

“Like my boy tells me; if it looks like a rat and smells like a rat, by golly, it is a rat.”

Yeah, OK. That was a quote from Terrell Owens, in reference to Jeff Garcia’s (alleged) homosexuality. As far as I’m concerned, that quote could’ve been referring to Bonds’ use of steroids.

Billy, all you gotta due is check out the link below. If AFTER viewing those photos, you STILL think Bonds is innocent, I’ve got some lovely ocean front property in ND that I can sell you…..REEEEAL cheap, too!

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/2006/03/06/bonds.years/index.1.exclude.html

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this

Just got off phone with Schuerholz, who wouldn’t say a word about Glavine to even acknowledge whether Braves are talking to him.

He did say, however, that the Braves always believed their best chance to improve their roster this winter was through trades, given the exploding free-agent market. Whether that was an indication of doubtful Glavine signing, I don’t know. But could be.

Think about it _ Mussina just got a two-year, $23 mill deal with Yankees. Glavine’s better, more reliable at this stage, and you gotta figure he can get that same deal with Mets, with a no-trade clause.

Braves, I can’t see giving him more than $7-8 mill in a one-year deal with a vesting option worth perhaps the same. But we’ll see. My back-and-forth needle on the subject, right now, is back to the Mets’ side.

By TennesseePaul

November 28, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this

If Joe Jackson didn’t know what was going on or didn’t know right from wrong, why didn’t he just say that to the grand jury instead of admitting he conspired with gamblers?

Payne: I wish I knew, but as we have all now found out, there is no way of knowing what was said in a Grand Jury.

I honestly can’t answer the motives Joe would have behind his actions. Why did he take the money and then play some of the best baseball America has ever seen in the WS? It appears that Joe’s reading and writing abilities are the most documented aspects of his personal life. I think the jury is still out on how often Joe wore shoes, if he ever did.

By Matthew

November 28, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this

Shaun:

“At the very least he knew that the series was being bought; if he didn’t know that, why didn’t he just tell the grand jury that he didn’t know anything was going on?”

He probably knew that something was up, but what should he have done? He confessed to receiving a pile of money in a Series that he may or may not have known was fixed. He did everything he could to win the Series, as I understand his stats. he couldn’t make his teammates play better, and he couldn’t stop what was going on behind the scenes. I guess he should have said, “Yes I took money before the series, but I didn’t understand what was going on, couldn’t stop my teammates,” had a change of heart, or whatever really happened. He should have spoken more carefully to explain what really happened. This may be where his lack of education comes into play. I still feel that if he was paid to throw the series, then he did a poor job of it.

Why are we arguing over a 90-year old baseball conspiracy? I guess because it’s November…

By Alan

November 28, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Voice, for the info on B. Roberts. Even if he’s arbitration-eligible in ‘07, he should be “cheaper” than Marcus, and he’s definitely more versatile. If I were the Braves, I’d try to deal for him. “Roberts to Renteria to Rochie” rolls off the tongue, doesn’t it?

By rammerjammer

November 28, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this

DOB, thanks for the latest from JS. Just fascinating stuff. NY may get their man after all.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

Bravo Nam, “Your life philosophy- in relation to believing whether something is fact or not- you need multiple sources before you believe anything- get real.” * Would you say Iraq, Afghanistan, and a dozen other hostile countries is as real as it gets? I was an intellignece analyst in the army. I know a thing or two about vetting sources. You get real, as I will live by philosophy and you can keep beliveing what other people tell you to belive. That’s your problem not mine. Your philosy of beliving two journlist will get people killed in my old line of work…….so you get real. Prove that wrong. You cant so don’t even try. So, anything DOB reports from the Braves needs to be checked out by multiple sources? I’ll use this as an example. When DOB talk about validating a rumor he normally say he need MULTIPLE SOURCES or a very reliable source. However, if DOB does report it I will go cross reference SI.com, Fox Sports, and other sports new organziations to see what they are reporting. That’s me. Am I correct in implying that you listen or watch one news organization for you news? Because that’s basicaly the philiospy your advocating.
JS says he just made a trade- hang on- gotta check that out. 1+1=2 Not so fast, need to check that out. She says she loves you, but you need to check out multiple sources before you believe it? LOL…….now your getting stupid. JS is stating a fact. JS is not a reporter. He is not quoting someone or refering to a source. None of these others are either. They are the source…..try a little harder (I wanna call you name for bringing this up, this was truly dumb). You’ve got to come up with a better arugment than this. This truly shows how ignorant your are at grapsing the point I am attempting to make. Were talking about journalist who use sources. 1+1 is a fact not a source or rerferal…get the idea?
Get off it. Who you kidding? If you multiple checked everything you heard, you’d never get anything done. I check muliple sources when I can not find fact to corrobarate a journilist or a sources story. Were talking about journalist not “everything”. Do you even know how to read? The reality is that you, like everyone else, choose to believe some sources, while others you check on multiple levels coz you either don’t like what they have to say, they don’t fit your bias, or you don’t like them. So far from the truth. Don’t pretend to know me. You have no clue who I am or what my ideogies are.
In relation to the Bonds/McGwire steroid thing, you’re using this excuse of multiple sources coz it suits your argument- bottom line with Bonds is that there is more than enough evidence to show he was on roids and cheating- show some Robert style courage and go out on a limb- you like the guy and don’t want him to be guilty.* Where is this evidene you speak of? No one has answered this question. Other than a book, (which if you don’t belive is hear say, whether it’s the truth or not your definaly clueless) and your preception of Barry Bonds then you have none.

Here is an example of reports getting someone killed.

Have three intellgience reports come in and state the whereabout of a high value target. Each claim that the source had a reliable source. A operation is launched and a firefight insues and one person dies. Later it is discovered that the source’s source was the same. So it appeared that tbhere were three sources where in fact there was only one. Before this devlops into “why didn’t they attempt to get more info agrument” I must point out that a lot of times information is time sensitive and the reward is greater than the risk.

By Matthew

November 28, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

Robbie to Renty to Rochy oh my!

Gotta get that BC slang goin’ for it to really be good, Alan.

Where is Jimmy Smith? The blog misses its esteemed former Ugandan journalist.

By Shaun

November 28, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

Matthew, TennPaul, etc.,

Someone threw the 1919 World Series. Baseball decided they were going to start coming down hard on gambling and fixing games. Whoever was even remotely involved paid the price. Joe Jackson at the very least had knowledge of the fix and probably was involved to some degree, so he was one of the players that paid the price. Can’t blame baseball for finally wanting to clean things up.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

November 28, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

Matthew or anybody else interested in the SEC Championship Game,

Florida’s defense is giving up less than 70 yards rushing per game…Considering the dominance that our passing game showed against LSU (cough, gag, hack), how much trouble are we in if they shut down McFadden in the SEC CG?

By NCBravesFan

November 28, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this

DOB -

I’m one of those 1,000 or so lurkers on the blog you referenced earlier. Just wanted to say thanks for being such a great source of information on the Braves. It’s great that the AJC has created this blog - but through your hard work, you have made it the absolute GEM that it truly is. Thanks for keeping us updated on the Glavine talks. Personally, it would be a huge “get” for the Braves since it would hit the Mets in an already weak spot. To me, that means the Mets will step up with big time $$ to keep him up there. If Glav decides to come home, he really will be making a statement, won’t he?

By The Grinch

November 28, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this

Yeah, you Razorbacks got your work cut out for you in the Champ. game. I hope you pull it off, though. While I like having Auburn as a near-equal rivalry (either way, Scalp ‘em; don’t flip out), I positively hope Florida loses every game they ever play again.

By KC

November 28, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

LEW:

Howdy! I was in Texas for the last couple weeks. The only time I got near a computer was to check email a couple of times. How was the Thanksgiving weather up north?

I agree with you that the Braves don’t need a prototypical leadoff hitter. They didn’t have one last year and were the best offensive team in the league. However, a true leadoff hitter could make this lineup even better, and isn’t that the goal every winter… to make your team better?

A big part of my reasoning on trading Giles for Brian Roberts was to clear Giles from the payroll to help make room for Tom Glavine. I was hoping to kill two birds with one stone… get a leadoff hitter, and clear 8 million in salary in one transaction. However, I was mistaken about Robert’s salary. He made 3 million last year. My understanding is that he signed a one year-3 million dollar deal to avoid arbitration, so I suppose he’s also eligible for arbitration this winter. The good news would be that he won’t be eligible for free agency until after the 2008 season. So in the end I guess he wouldn’t be any cheaper than Giles, but he would be a better fit for the leadoff slot.

If the Braves want to make a serious run at Glavine, then Roberts would probably be too expensive. If the Braves can’t ink Glavine, then (since Glavine’s the only top-tier free agent starter they have a snowball’s chance in hell of signing) I hope they’ll turn their attention to acquiring a leadoff hitter (along with a proven reliever or two, of course).

Again, I wouldn’t change a thing in this rotation unless we can add a top-tier starter. Now that I’ve warmed to the notion that Glavine is still in fact something of a top-tier guy… I’m very hopeful that the Braves will be assertive in trying to reacquire his services (especially since it would be addition by a Met’s subtraction).

By Matthew

November 28, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

Hillbilly:

Has anyone this year stopped DMac? Auburn was only giving up 88 total yards per game when we trounced them. Besides, with DMac in the woldcat package Florida will have even more trouble.

I’m picking Arkansas by 7 or less.

By Just Curious

November 28, 2006 03:25 PM | Link to this

Billy(TBFNB)….Ever hear of SpellCheck??

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this

Hey Cubs put a 45 million over 3 years bid on Schmidt.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 03:37 PM | Link to this

If anybody wonders why pitchers dont get the amount of complete games they once did this could be the reason.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/tom_verducci/11/28/pitchers/index.html

By The Grinch

November 28, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

Billy, in light of all the piling on lately I apologize for sounding like a jackass; everyone’s entitled to their own opinion.

By Matthew

November 28, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this

Should’ve said, “Wildcat package.” Sorry about that.

Hey Hillbilly, what about the BBALL Hogs’ chances against Mizzou and Mike Anderson Thurs.? You gonna watch it on ESPN2?

By KC

November 28, 2006 03:51 PM | Link to this

“The Cubs, anxious to steal the winter and maybe the summer, too, are now pursuing star free-agent pitcher Jason Schmidt, SI.com has learned. The Cubs already have spent $239 million on free agents (including the $10 million they used for new manager Lou Piniella), and two high-ranking baseball people said they are bidding about $45 million over three years for Schmidt in attempt to lure him away from the West Coast. It may not be easy in his case. The Yankees showed interest in Schmidt several days ago but were told that he didn’t want to move all the away across the country, to New York.”

The Mets might be screwed.

This is what I’ve been trying to tell Mets fans for the last couple of months… Even though the Mets have the money to pursue the pitching they need, it’s very tough to get a deal done right now… there are just so many hands in the cookie jar at the moment.

The Mets have to re-sign Glavine, and then they have to get Zito, along with another quality starter (Jeff Suppan or equivilant) if they are to put together a quality rotation. (They can’t count on Pedro at all this season… when he comes back, will he be anything close to 100% coming off a major shoulder surgery??)

The Braves likely have the equivalent to a big free agent signing with the return of Mike Hampton. If Tim Hudson returns to form (and I think the Braves are confident that he will, as am I), it would be as though the Braves signed two top-tier starters.

If the Braves could sign Glavine, I think that would tip the balance of power considerably in the NL East. Not only would the Braves add one more top-tier starter, but the Mets would lose one (their only one). And if there’s one thing the Mets can’t afford right now, it’s to lose Tom Glavine.

By Matthew

November 28, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this

According to SI “insider” John Donovan, Glavine is only a “longshot” for returning to ATL.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/john_donovan/11/27/hot.stove.questions/2.html

By journalist jimmy smith

November 28, 2006 03:56 PM | Link to this

journalist is checking in … it has been a busy day. jimmy smith was amused by the tale of the big yellow shoes and wonders if it is just coincidence that journalist bob is known to wear big yellow shoes when gardening?

and who wears a big red shoe on the baseball field? that’s right - a toe-challenged pedro!

journalist was just reading ajc.com and it appears atlanta is now meaner than baghdad. what has happened to our gentle society?

and now, hall of fame. this journalist watched sandy koufax pitch at atlanta-fulton county stadium. he is a legitimate hof player in this journalist’s estimation. pete rose is another. he could single-handedly beat the braves way back when. a legitimate star - an all-star at several positions. baseball has allowed itself to become the mess that it is and it does not appear that the leadership is in place to correct the problems that now exist. oh, the humanity! it is the best game there is and the greedy owners and players are making a mockery.

then, there is mccann and his pure talent and love for the game - makes it all wholesome again.

now, guy curtright - this journalist wishes good things for you in retirment. it is looking more and more like dob will take this year’s wurlitzer. we shall see.

now,

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

Just Curious,

Billy(TBFNB)….Ever hear of SpellCheck??

Yes I have heard of spell check.

Now answer my questions.

Got the balls to put your real screen name or post something that actually expresses an opinion. As I don’t understand the purpose of your question. Speaking of grammar and spell check, why two question marks and the the multiple periods.

I believe you wont or can’t answer my questions as you rather attack my grammar,spelling or anything else about me. I agree that my post are rather inundated with grammatical error but I truly believe it does not take much to comprehend what I am attempting to articulate. While your attempt to make me look stupid or ignorant may have suceeded but did not effect me as my self esteem does not come from a blog. Now you can go get a life. That answer you question?

P.S. Man you dont belive in what the crowd believes you get attacked. What a joke.

By KC

November 28, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

I just read DOB’s post on his conversation with JS… if Shuerholz seems lukewarm on the Glavine topic, my guess is that it would have more to do with his confidence in being able to re-acquire Glavine as opposed to their desire to sign him.

I would like to think that the Braves would at least consider offering him 9 million with a vesting option for a second year. ATL wouldn’t offer a no-trade, but would that really matter? Wouldn’t it be bad etiquette to trade a big free agent during his first (or only) season with his new team? Have the Braves ever done that? Not that I can remember. As for a second vesting year… the Braves could offer Glavine an opt-out clause that would probably put his mind at ease heading into the deal. He could feel the situation out after the 2007 season, and make a decision from there.

Anyway… I hopeful, but not terribly optimistic. I think the Mets will ultimately offer Glavine 3-6 million more per season then the Braves would offer, and I just can’t see Mr. Player’s Association making that kind of sacrifice.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

The Grinch,

Billy, in light of all the piling on lately I apologize for sounding like a jackass; everyone’s entitled to their own opinion.

While I appreciate the sympathy no need to appolgize. I am a big boy and can take my lumps. I am acutely aware that my side of the debate is in the minority. I’ve fought this battle many times to some sucess but many failures.

By Matthew

November 28, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this

“It is the best game there is and the greedy owners and players are making a mockery.”

JJS:

I agree entirely with your point, but it reminds me of a line from MASH:

Frank: “You’re making this into a hollow mockery!”

Hawkeye: “I’ve never once taken out the insides of a mockery.”

Sorry, it may not be funny to anyone else, but it was hilarious to me.

By KC

November 28, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

With all due respect to John Donovan… what the hell does he know about the Glavine situation? He’s not a Braves or Mets writer, and probably isn’t any closer to that situation than any of us. That said… sadly, he’s probably right.

I think the patience and disciplined restraint of the Braves front office has long been one of the principal strengths that’s kept the Braves on or near the top for so many years. They rarely make overly bold moves, and never make ill-advised or silly moves. Even when they had Ted’s wallet, their MO was relative restraint.

However, in this case if there’s any way possible to do it… I’d like to see the Braves show a little killer instinct here. If they want to make sure (or at least as sure as anyone can be) that their rotation will be among baseball’s best next season… here’s their chance. And it’s a chance to strike an awfully tough blow to their division rivals by stealing away their only noteworthy starter. Come on guys… take this opportunity to bolster the rotation and shove a dagger in Mets’ side in the process!

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6214970

Hey the 2B sitution is getting a little wishy washy. JS must be asking alot if these teams rather have Counsel/Graffino than Giles.

By TennesseePaul

November 28, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

Payne: Can’t blame baseball for finally wanting to clean things up

HA! Finally? Yeah. That was 1919. Baseball had been around officially and professionally for only 48 years. The WS for 18 years. Rigging the seriers was rampant and uncontroled prior to the 1921 trial.
And yes, I can blame baseball for overzealously attempting to clean things up. The same broad stroke that pulled in Joe could pull down players from the roid era who are equally “guilt” free. It’s like a witch hunt. Joe knew about it, so therefore he’s banned for life. Treat roids the same way, and everyone for the last 30 years or more would have to be banned from baseball for knowing about it.

Can’t blame baseball… You can’t take that away from me! I can blame whoever I want! =)

By Arkansas Hillbilly

November 28, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this

Matthew,

Yeah I’m gonna try to watch the B-Ball game Thursday if my wife will turn off CSI reruns for a little while. This should be a fun game to watch. I caught parts of a couple of the Orlando games. Looks like we got some good talent and a couple of sure enough scorers in Sonny Weems and Patrick Beverly. Ervin reminds me a lot of Brandon Dean, which was one of my favorite players back in the day. You know Mike Anderson is gonna bring the THUNDER with some old 40 minutes of hell. I just hope our youngsters can keep their composure, (well maybe I should say “newcomers.” they’re not so young, lot of transfers)

By Jim

November 28, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this

Maybe I missed it somewhere earlier in the blog. But will the Braves definitely be getting additional draft pick for Baez?

By KC

November 28, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this

Billy:

If I had to guess, I’d say JS probably isn’t trying to ask “a lot” in return for Giles, but he’s not likely looking to give him away just to clear payroll either. Shuerholz wants a proven, affordable late inning reliever for Giles. If teams aren’t willing or able to offer that for Giles, they are probably out of the running at the moment.

Giles’ trade value is probably not what the Braves would like it to be given that he’s coming off a sub par season, and will make 5 million this season before being eligible for free agency next winter.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 28, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

journalistthinks that bob must be reading the blog even if bob is not posting anymore. jimmy smith wishes to take this opportunity to apologize to journalist bob for suggesting bob might be wearing big yellow shoes (yellow-jacket, right? bobby dodd is known to have sported a nice yellow shoe in his day - kicked with it - often on third down). if bob will return to the blog all will be cordial and pleasant again. we must remain in touch with bob during the holidays. now, this journalist is addressing christmas cards and is in need of stinky’s address. and where is sda - why have his people not contacted jimmy smith’s people about lunch? now, tom glavine’s return to the braves will be accompanied by much merriment. mimes, jugglers, fiddlers, and uh, bubblemakers.

By ncscoots

November 28, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

The spirit of Mark Bowman seems to invaded the blog, since he also seems fixated on the need to acquire a leadoff hitter. Don’t get me wrong, I think Brian Roberts is a terrific player; he certainly makes more sense than the usual Figgins/Freel/whoever names bandied about; and could certainly be the answer if the Braves had a desperate need for a top-of-the-order hitter. But the need ISN’T desperate; Roberts is likely to get as much as Giles in arbitration; and the Braves have cheaper (albeit unproven) alternatives. A rookie with a so-so first year will almost certainly match Giles’ off-year in 2006, on a team that was an offensive monster. And who knows, one of the rooks may be a star in waiting, for all I know. Where’s the upside in spending the extra loot on Roberts or any other traded-for leadoff hitter? There’s little chance that ANY player traded for can significantly impact the offense above last year’s level, which means that any dollars spent on that trade can’t be used on the REAL areas of concern. Not good ROI for a team with not-unlimited dollars.

By KC

November 28, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

GRINCH:

Now that the ticket prices are going up… maybe we should alter the bet so that you’ll have to buy my ticket instead of just a beverage! lol

By Stinky

November 28, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

this journalist watched sandy koufax pitch at atlanta-fulton county stadium. he is a legitimate hof player in this journalist’s estimation.

Stinky must apologize to esteemed journalist. Stinky did not realize that esteemed foot fetishist and journalist was that old to have seen Koufax in the flesh. Always be kind to old farts is Stinky’s motto.

Now Baseball … Everyone who covers Braves seems to be eating waffles from same batter. Is it coincidence that waffles and baseball share ‘batter’ in their vernacular, or are waffles more important to baseball than previously thought. Regardless, waffles are not to be triffled with. And DOB has waffled one way, and Mark Bowman the other. Oh, the hominy…

And what of Dale Murphy. Never was one with major case of ‘Roids. Stinky must ask: What is rage with roids. Hemorrhoids make Stinky full of rage, but Stinky doesn’t go around making big deal of it. Stinky thinks that hemorrhoids are personal matter that one should only have to discuss with doctor.

By Stinky

November 28, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this

When I want to watch some sports and my wife wants to watch CSI reruns, I grab her by the scruff of the neck and guide her to the kitchen. Then I run like hell.

By BB FAN

November 28, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this

Shaun,

“Someone threw the 1919 World Series. Baseball decided they were going to start coming down hard on gambling and fixing games. Whoever was even remotely involved paid the price. Joe Jackson at the very least had knowledge of the fix and probably was involved to some degree, so he was one of the players that paid the price. Can’t blame baseball for finally wanting to clean things up.”

A lot of people had knowledge of the fix. Hell, everybody from the White Sox owner to the gambling fans had an idea. So was the White Sox owner banned for life? No. Just because a person has knowledge of something doesn’t mean he/she should be responsible.

If thats the case then, you are saying that if “John Doe” gets killed and you don’t know “John Doe”, however, earlier in the day, you overheard some dumb drunk bragging that “John Doe” was going to die later, you should be held accountable for that murder?

By Paul

November 28, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this

Lew

I didn’t know I was getting critiqued on my spelling. Thanks for the corrections. (you should be my editor) Consistency is nice but it shouldn’t get you into the hall of fame. You can’t compare Ryan to Niekro and Sutton. Ryan was a much better pitcher. I can see your point about Ripken Shaun, but with the crop of shortshops now, Ripken won’t be in the top 5 for long. I agree with Ryno, he shouldn’t be in the hall.

By KC

November 28, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this

nscoots:

I think it’s likely that the Braves will trade for bullpen help. But I also think it’s likely that the bullpen help they acquire will be of a very affordable variety (via trade).

As for the rotation… I’m not sure that they’ll be changing the rotation in any way (and I’m not sure they need to). Getting Hampton and Ramirez back, and giving Hudson a full winter to forget that 2006 ever happened… might be all the changes the Braves rotation needs.

I don’t think the Braves will make any moves where the starting rotation is concerned unless they have an opportunity to pick up another top-tier starter of something close to it.

In short, the biggest needs the Braves have (a setup man and another lefty reliever) may not cost the Braves very much financially. That means the Braves might be financially free to pursue moving Giles in favor of a leadoff hitter.

I’m not one of those here to claim that the Braves need a leadoff hitter. As I mentioned to Lew earlier, ATL didn’t have on last year and was the best offensive team in the league. So it’s hard to say that one is needed, but I think a true leadoff hitter could make this lineup even better. But if we don’t change this lineup in any way… or if we alter it only to unload Giles’ salary, I won’t be terribly disappointed.

Aybar did a fine job in the leadoff spot while filling in for Chipper. Maybe Prado or Escobar could fill that role. I’m also slightly fascinated by the suggestion of using Kelly Johnson at 2B and giving him a crack at the leadoff spot. Someone suggested Matt Diaz for the leadoff spot, but I’m not so sure about that one. Did anyone notice that Diaz walks less often than Jeff Francoeur? Seriously! It’s true. Look it up.

By KC

November 28, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this

This is GREAT!!!! This could have saved Mark Wholer’s career.

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/neuro/memorydrugssd.html

By KC

November 28, 2006 05:15 PM | Link to this

Question:

Hey, does anyone here own a DVR? We’re thinking about buying one.

Can you record on one channel while watching a different channel??

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this

Nathan, points deducted from your case for quoting Terrell Owens. Good god, man, never again quote T.O….

Grinch, so true _ unless the juror actually saw the murder, there’s really no way they should be able to convict, right? Right, Billy? Because even if they had a video, that could’ve been doctored. And DNA might’ve been “mishandled” like in the O.J. case, right?

Short of a signed, witnessed confession _ or at least yellow clown shoes beneath the bed _ no crime would be solved….

Adam Eaton, making $10 mill a year. A dude who’s only twice topped 140 innings. A journeyman. $10 mill.

How’s Glavine going to accept $7 mill or so? Bad timing for his return, what with the market gone insane all around….

This period of silence by all parties tells me they’ve all agreed to absolutely not say anything while talks going on. Then if it falls through with Braves, Glavine can just go back to the Mets and say after talking with his family, they agreed the financial security outweighed the inconvenience and blah blah blah, and that it just makes more sense to go back to the Mets. If it falls through, I repeat….

Long as he tells them before or even during the winter meetings, I’m sure Mets will give him the same deal they’d give him if he signed today….

By TennesseePaul

November 28, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this

I think the Mets will ultimately offer Glavine 3-6 million more per season then the Braves would offer

KC: I’m not sure about the figures. If the Braves offer 9 and the Mets don’t want him for 14, I’d venture to guess that he’d only be leaving about 1 or 2 million on the table. I think that’s what all the waiting around is for. To see how high the Braves will go. If they offere him 8, and say, that’s the way it is and that’s what Smoltz has, then the Mets can turn around and offer 10. Glavine would have to decide if 2 million is worth ripping the family appart and twice dashing the hopes and dreams of Atlanta Braves fans.

Maybe it won’t be so destructive and awful sounding…

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 05:49 PM | Link to this

Billy, just read your long post (2:55 p.m.). I take it you weren’t a military intelligence analyst in, say, the past five years? If you were, I wish you’d be as skeptical as you are about the reports on Bonds.

(Thankaverymuch, I’ll be here all week. Tip your waiters and waitresses…)

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 06:01 PM | Link to this

NCBravesFan, if Glavine comes home, he would indeed be making a statement. There’d be no questioning _ or at least there shouldn’t be _ his motivation if he returns, because he will have left a small fortune (large fortune for you or I) on the table….

Hey, I was just trying to imagine the level of fallout if, say, Chipper Jones or Andruw Jones flipped off the crowd while coming off the field at Turner Field….

Sure wish my uncle was friends with Tom Waits about right now, since I just went to both Criminal Records AND Wax ‘n’ Facts and his new three-CD set was sold out at both places. Damn. Maybe my man at Ella Guru Records will have it…

While at Wax ‘n Facts, picked up an vintage used copy of the two-album Flat and Scruggs set, a copy of REM’s 45-RPM single “Wendell Gee” (with live “Driver Eight” on B side) and an old album by The Alarm, all on exquisite vinyl….

By Nathan (You know, THE IDIOT WITH NO INTEGRITY)

November 28, 2006 06:06 PM | Link to this

DOB

Come ON! Cut me some slack! LOL!

Yes, TO is a JACKA$$. No, I will NEVER quote him again. But like him or not, right or wrong. In many ways, (if for NOTHING else, the ridiculousness of it), that quote, goes down as one of the FUNNIEST things ever to come out of an athlete’s (or any celebrity’s), mouth.

Speaking of the TO quote. Never did quite get the “my boy” portion of it. Maybe HE was gay!

But you have my word (as long as you admit it was kinda funny) that I’ll never use THAT quote again. If he says something more DUMB than that, I may be forced to repeat it. :)

By The Grinch

November 28, 2006 06:07 PM | Link to this

Back again. KC, if prices get too much higher, we may need to sneak in under the fence. Of course, that depends on if Glavine comes back or not. If he does, I expect he’ll make sure nobody crosses the picketts…

Matthew, I had forgotten how funny MASH was until I started watching reruns a few months ago. Alan Alda: Has anyone ever as unabashedly ripped off Groucho Marx?

Jimmy Smith, be careful of who you accuse of having big yellow shoes; it may come back to haunt you…:-)

The Braves will be noticably better next year even if they stand pat. Wicky probably won’t be quite as effective as he was last year, but he’ll be good enough to make a huge difference. Hampton will be a huge shot in the arm (pardon the pun). Hudson couldn’t possibly be any worse (fingers crossed), and there’s no way the uninterrupted run of just sheer bad luck will be repeated. Plus, there’s always addition by subtraction: Jordan, Pratt, Remmy, Reitsma (please, oh lord, please do not let that particular Canadian back on the mound), Sosa, etc. Have no fear. I think JS is doing the right thing by not panicking and wasting money we don’t have in this ridiculous market.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 28, 2006 06:08 PM | Link to this

the third-person stinky blogger is with us tonight - but, alas, stinky left no mailing address for the jimmy smith christmas card. and a wife? stinky has a wife? surely this proves there is someone out there for everybody. if the stinky-wife could read the stinky posts, then the stinky blogger would likely have to reform and become a gentleman. and, yes, baby jimmy smith attended many baseball games. seeing sandy koufasx was pretty special. the curveball was the best you will ever see. think stinky can remember to be kind to old jimmy smith? not even nice to his wife. now, baseball trades … will the first trade be with the orioles? kansas city? or perhaps with milwaukee’s talented gm who seems to best js when trading? and where is wes obermueller? journalist has this sinking feeling …

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 06:09 PM | Link to this

Jim, yes, you did miss it: Baez will bring two draft picks to Braves as compensation, since he’s a “Type A” free agent. None of Braves’ other four free agents is a Type A or B, so they’ll bring nothing back in return.

By mariner

November 28, 2006 06:27 PM | Link to this

2 draft picks for Baez seems like a sweet return for his brief stay in Atlanta.

By BravesFaninRockies

November 28, 2006 06:29 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Pete Angelos really must enjoy spending mucho bucks on marginal (or slightly better) bullpen talent. And throwing away his draft picks, too. I wasn’t aware that a bidding war for Baez was under way, but couldn’t the O’s have saved them draft picks by waiting until Saturday to sign Baez?

Weird, man, weird.

By Braves Fan in Denver

November 28, 2006 06:30 PM | Link to this

KC: You should get the DVR. I am not sure who your cable provider is but I just rent my DVR from Comcast. I have lived in Virginia and now Denver and my cable provider will provide it to you for $10/month. You can record one show and watch another or record two at the same time. The DVR holds a lot of shows. Once you get it, you will never go without.

Great blog Braves fans and DOB. It is hard to get much information about the Braves in Colorado and from the national media, but this blog is great. It would be nice if the Braves got a leadoff hitter, but I don’t want to sacrifice too much. A little bullpen help would be nice.

By The Grinch

November 28, 2006 06:33 PM | Link to this

The rest of the Braves’ free agents are Type-S. :-)

Jimmy Smith, don’t tell me you didn’t think we got over on Milwaukee by aquiring 29-save closer Dan Kolb? Remember, that was 29 saves on a bad team. Tremendous upside was implied, and as we all know “upside” is a word he cannot refuse.

By mariner

November 28, 2006 06:36 PM | Link to this

The O’s could have saved the draft picks. I’m glad JS is holding on to his draft picks, and waiting for the right deal. I wouldn’t want to owe the Mets two draft picks for Glavine.

By Lew

November 28, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this

Paul-I’m usually not going to point out spelling errors, but the difference between complier and compiler is pretty radical. That’s the only reason I pointed it out. I mean I’m anal, but not THAT anal.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this

That’s a low blow but it’s ok. I don’t believe you can possibly comprehend that very complex situation based on your interpatation (sp?) of my argument here today and last night. It’s not about being skeptical or protecting Barry Bonds its about me pointing out that people are believing this without any proof other than what a journalist source says and their perception of Barry Bonds appearance. And unless I missed somthing this is all the “proof” you have. Whether he took steroids or not is really irrelevant to my point. A perfect example of my point is the memo’s pertaining to President Bush’s National Guard service time. One of the most respected journalists on a National network got it wrong and every one believed him.

Billy? Because even if they had a video, that could’ve been doctored. And DNA might’ve been “mishandled” like in the O.J. case, right?

The problem with this DOB is (and why I feel you don’t want to comprehend what my point is) a tape you can prove and disprove. Can you prove or disprove B. Bonds used steroids? Like that other idiot bringing up 1+1 your attempting to change the argument.. DNA speaks for its self. A scientist speaks for its self. A journalist when reporting for a story does not speak for him/her self he speaks for who ever he is quoting.

How else can I explain this to where you understand what I am writing? I cannot win or lose an argument unless some one understands my point. I digress, you probably do but cant fight that fight so you try and redirect the argument down a road you can fight.

Journalist quotes an un-named source that this was the murder weapon.

Public opinion has crushed this individual…he can’t go outside without getting hostile treatment.

Scientist says in the courtroom with certainty this was the murder weapon.

They are talking about different murder weapons for the same case. Who would you believe?

I know what you’re going to say; no scientist has ever stood up and said B. Bonds never took steroids. However, remember that’s not the point of the question. The point is that I hope you would believe the scientist rather than the journalist unnamed source.

People will believe anything without giving it a second thought.

DOB, back to Iraq…….do not say anything about somehthing you really, I mean really dont know anything about. I dont mean that in a negative tone is theres no way in the world you know more about that than I do.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 28, 2006 06:42 PM | Link to this

and how did jimmy smith know that journalist bob wears big yellow shoes? journalist cannot reveal sources. depends on what your definition of is, is. worthy of a wurlitzer, don’t you think?

now, baseball … journalist is tormented by the thought of chipper jones flipping off the crowd … “uh, … ”

the sight is not a pretty one.

By Just Curious

November 28, 2006 06:46 PM | Link to this

“Upside.” I used to have one but I think gravity is taking over. :-)

By The Skeptical Blogger Formerly Known as Billy

November 28, 2006 06:54 PM | Link to this

Finally,

Writing the same thing and expecting a differnt result is….yeah you know….so I am done with this arugment……you win. On with something else.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 28, 2006 06:54 PM | Link to this

taking dob’s thoughts one step further - imagine esteemed bobby cox falling to his replacement knees when the game is not going well. imagine the team owner standing so close to bobby cox during the game that bobby has no place to stick his … gum.

is blank the perfect owner? this journalist thinks mora should tell blank to stay off the sidelines during the game. can only tell him once, though. and then you’re outa here.

By mariner

November 28, 2006 06:56 PM | Link to this

Billy, I admit I don’t get your point. The SF Chronicle author’s source is unimportant. It’s the information that the source provided that is key. And no one has discredited the illegally obtained Grand Jury testimony. It doesn’t matter what anyone else says about Barry. The key is that Barry himself admitted to taking steroids, just not being aware of it at the time. Barry sued them for stealing the testimony (suit thrown out by judge), but did not sue them for libel. So, you think the authors stole the testimony then edited it for their own profit motives, and Barry said OK fine I don’t mind?

By Paul

November 28, 2006 07:00 PM | Link to this

Lew,

Its alright,I was never a good speller (thank god I teach math). I don’t think we’ve ever agreed on anything. How could anyone not think Bonds is not on steroids? Maybe if he was a nicer individual and a guy you could relate or look up to. Compare photos from the mid 90’s to now. No one could put on that muscle mass without the aid of something. (Andro and Creatine cannot do that and are two products that do absolutely nothing) Besides, look at his head, its the size of Rhode Island. (the most obvious sign that someone is on steroids). An athlete should not significantly improve (average and homers) in the later third of his career like Bonds did. Bonds was never a bona fide home run hitter in the 80’s and 90’s.

By Stinky

November 28, 2006 07:00 PM | Link to this

Lew, I knew you were anal.

By The Grinch

November 28, 2006 07:03 PM | Link to this

Chipper would likely tear a flexor tendon in his finger if he shot the crowd a bird. Plus, the crowd wouldn’t be as hard on the Braves as they would the Falcons; the Falcons’ roster is as well stocked as any team in the league. The fact that they play like “The Replacements” warrants booing. Vick is one of about 5 five players who shouldn’t be booed for their effort, and getting the least you can out of the talent you’ve got falls squarely on the coaching staff and no-one else.

By Stinky

November 28, 2006 07:06 PM | Link to this

Jimmy Smith, did you like my homage? Please grade on a scale of 1 star to 4. Half stars are acceptable.

By The Skeptical Blogger Formerly Known as Billy

November 28, 2006 07:08 PM | Link to this

mariner,

tempting but like I said in my last post “I’m done with this arugument”.

By Stinky

November 28, 2006 07:11 PM | Link to this

Just Curious, can we play 20 Questions?

By Drummerdad

November 28, 2006 07:13 PM | Link to this

DOB, Do you know anything about the Daryle Ward negotiations? As for Chipper showing a digit to the crowd in disgust, I would think that to be a dangerous move considering the injuries of the last 3 years. What headline would DOB write to describe it? And Journalist Jim would be forced to switch from opining about toes and write of fingers and wrists perhaps. O….

By Stinky

November 28, 2006 07:18 PM | Link to this

Billy, did you ever consider “TBFKAB”?

By The Skeptical Blogger Formerly Known as Billy

November 28, 2006 07:34 PM | Link to this

Discaimer: I’m not arguing my point any longer but rather discounting others.

Paul,

Maybe if he was a nicer individual and a guy you could relate or look up to.

To me it has nothing to do with the argument/discussion. You determine someones innocence by his personality? Surely your joking.

“Andro and Creatine cannot do that and are two products that do absolutely nothing”

Your mistaken.

“An athlete should not significantly improve (average and homers) in the later third of his career like Bonds did.:

Not too many althetes did this. Only a select few. Would you agree that if it was possible natrually that Barry Bonds would be the althlete to do it. If not who would.

Bonds was never a bona fide home run hitter in the 80’s and 90’s

Rethink this comment after you look at this link

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/3918/

By The Skeptical Blogger Formerly Known as Billy

November 28, 2006 07:42 PM | Link to this

Stinky,

“Billy, did you ever consider “TBFKAB”?”

Yes. Matter of fact about six months ago the first time I posted with that moniker it was a typo “TBFNB” I changed it to “TBFKAB” a couple of post later. One of the bloggers suggested changing it back. Which I did. This blogger may have did this for nefarious purposes, I truly dont know but it makes people like you ask the question.

By TheSouthernJackAss

November 28, 2006 07:45 PM | Link to this

jimmy smith you will have to refer to the previous blog for my answer to your lunch invitation!…

By The Skeptical Blogger Formerly Known as Billy

November 28, 2006 07:47 PM | Link to this

Oh yeah, Stinky,”People like you” refers to the indivduals who like making other people look bad.

By The Grinch

November 28, 2006 07:53 PM | Link to this

I doubt ‘roids affect one’s ability to see the ball better, and Bonds’ high average later on suggests to me that in that respect, he’s just a great hitter getting even more selective as his experience grows. Bonds was also always a home run hitter, but jumping from an average of about 35-40 up to busting McGwire’s all of a sudden is not likely without help. And no, Billy, I’m not aiming this squarely at you (frankly I’m about tired of arguing as I’m sure you must be); just tossing it out there for whatever it’s worth.

By Stinky

November 28, 2006 08:01 PM | Link to this

The Skeptical Blogger Formerly Known as Billy, what did I do to make you look bad? I just asked a question.

By GM Wannabe

November 28, 2006 08:09 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure if this has been mentioned or not but could JS and TG be holding out a while to ensure that the Mets do not get 2 draft picks if TG signs with Atlanta?

By stew

November 28, 2006 08:10 PM | Link to this

Weren’t the Pads considering Betemit for Linebrink last summer when the deal for Aybar/Baez was made with the Dodgers? Couldn’t we have sweetened the pot? If Andruw walks we lose a 20 million dollar asset with nothing to replace it. Either we get something for him or we sign him at a discount for more years. Letting him walk would be the biggest mistake in our history. It’s no longer Chipper’s team, the team is built around Andruw.

By Just Curious

November 28, 2006 08:12 PM | Link to this

Stinky you can’t even count to 20 boy!

By The Skeptical Blogger Formerly Known as Billy

November 28, 2006 08:17 PM | Link to this

Stinky,

The fact that you asked that question along with your reputation.

By Nathan (You know, THE IDIOT WITH NO INTEGRITY)

November 28, 2006 08:28 PM | Link to this

Grinch

You said in your 7:05 post:

“…and getting the least you can out of the talent you’ve got falls squarely on the coaching staff and no-one else.”

Be careful my man. Had you made this comment after a Braves post season failure, you might get confused for taking Robert’s side! LOL!

By Tommy G

November 28, 2006 08:29 PM | Link to this

Is the aquawium weady yet? Instead of the museums in Noo Yawk I can take my famiwy to the aquawium in Atwanta. Wife is wess expensive and a dowwa goes fatha in Atwanta. Pwus, code wingfinga is wess wikely to happen in Atwanta. Hewe I come!

By The Skeptical Blogger Formerly Known as Billy

November 28, 2006 08:32 PM | Link to this

You sure do have a purdy mouth Stinky.

By KC

November 28, 2006 08:36 PM | Link to this

TennPaul:

I say that the Braves and Mets will be 3-5 million a season apart because the Braves probably aren’t going to offer 9 million to Glavine. Maaaybe they’ll offer 9, but DOB is probably correct when in speculating that Atlanta’s offer will be in the 7-8 million range.

The Mets are desperate and would likely offer something in the neighborhood of 2 years 22-25 mill. The Braves simply can’t touch that. A lot of players talk about signing in a certain place because of family… blah, blah, blah… but Glavine will have to mean it 100% to return for several million less per year.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 28, 2006 08:37 PM | Link to this

does anyone know - is mary mac’s seal-friendly?

By Elmer Fudd

November 28, 2006 08:39 PM | Link to this

Now dat wussant vwery funny, makes me weally weally angwy!!!…

By Paul

November 28, 2006 08:46 PM | Link to this

Bill, or prince or whoever;

I’m not mistaken about creatine or andro (please base your judgements on facts). As a bodybuilder I took both. Creatine and Andro allow your muscles to recoup quicker after a workout. The problem with these products is that they are limited in their effectiveness. Over the counter products that can be found at GNC can only take you so far. Read this and it will change your mind. When answering my posts you didn’t how Bonds was able to put on so much muscle mass?

http://www.rocklandroadrunners.org/articles/JPKcreat.html

By The Real Blogger Formerly Known as Billy

November 28, 2006 08:47 PM | Link to this

As if my post count was not high enough already someone has to use my moniker. The question is who would want mock me.

By Stinky

November 28, 2006 08:52 PM | Link to this

Billy Boy, speaking of mouths, don’t bite off more than you can chew.

Just Curious, I’ll give it the old college try.

Jimmy Smith, There are 10 Bad Asses in this world and I get 9 Christmas Cards.

By The Grinch

November 28, 2006 08:55 PM | Link to this

Nathan, you could be right; I actually thought about that briefly after I posted it. Coaching in the NFL and managing in baseball are two totally different animals, though.

Elmer Fudd, that reminds me. I don’t know if y’all ever look at Ebaumsworld or filecabi.net or any of those sites, but earlier today I saw a recut of Looney Tunes where they had the music for “St. Elmo’s Fire” in the background and they edited Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd cartoons into a gay love story movie trailer…it was rather humerous.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 28, 2006 08:58 PM | Link to this

billy, go to lunch with us and you can meet him.

By The Real Blogger Formerly Known as Billy

November 28, 2006 09:05 PM | Link to this

Bill, or prince or whoever

You can call me Billy…..funny never refered to my self as “Bill” or “Prince” so I dont know where you really got that from.

I’m not mistaken about creatine or andro (please base your judgements on facts

I was simply refering to your comment that they do nothing.

“Creatine and Andro allow your muscles to recoup quicker after a workout.”

Wow, that sure is diffent from what you said earlier “Andro and Creatine cannot do that and are two products that do absolutely nothing”.

You have no respect from me…read what you type before you critize my ability to judge based on facts

By David

November 28, 2006 09:10 PM | Link to this

We can stop all this nonsense about Aybar as a leadoff option. No position for him,Cox doesn’t consider him a candidate for 2b, and I doubt he will unseat Chipper at 3b.he will be a reserve.

By The Real Blogger Formerly Known as Billy

November 28, 2006 09:16 PM | Link to this

Stinky,

Im not that witty the comment about the mouth wasnt me.

By Carolina Lady

November 28, 2006 09:20 PM | Link to this

Lessee……a family already has umpteen million dollars and the next 3 generations are taken care of for life. How many days of discussion and with how many other family members must this be discussed? What is to be discussed?? It ain’t rocket science! If he wants to come back to ATL, he knows he’ll have to come back at a huge discount. So the question is: more money to add to the millions already in hand or fewer millions to add to the millions already in hand. If his family truly is the foremost consideration, he should have been able to decide in about 2 nanoseconds. He hasn’t. Tells me alot.

By TheSouthernJackAss

November 28, 2006 09:37 PM | Link to this

jimmy smith if you’re going to be an a*******hole and continue to falsely accuse people for various shyt then at least keep it honest and stand behind what you say—you ignorant, 2-faced, overbearing son of a bytch!!!…

By The Grinch

November 28, 2006 09:39 PM | Link to this

Billy, I believe he was referring to the musician Prince, who changed his name for a while to “The Artist ormerly known as Prince.”

CL, how dare you imply Tommy’s just in it for the money! You should feel ashamed! He makes sure his children’s nannies give them the very best of care. And do you think nannies are free these days? You won’t be affording any on just 8 mil. a year I guarantee, just ask Smoltz. Why do think he still lives in Atlanta with his family?

By journalist jimmy smith

November 28, 2006 09:41 PM | Link to this

stinky is bragging now. nine christmas cards is nine more than this journalist thought stinky could command - and that’s figuring your momma in for one. still, ‘tis the season and carolina lady would expect jimmy smith to be kind to stinky so journalist will give stinky benefit of the doubt. sorry you are having the bad ask problem - you’ve been talking that all day. remermber the word ointment and forget where you heard it.

By Stinky

November 28, 2006 09:41 PM | Link to this

JS should hire CL to negotiate with pampered soft-toss LHP’s. I can just see a super agent taking out a restraining order - “She actually boxed my ear and gave me the bum’s rush, your honor.”

Billy, sorry. Someone’s having a little bit of fun at our expense.

By The Grinch

November 28, 2006 09:45 PM | Link to this

And don’t forget, their new “Uncle” who shows up during the regular season since 2002 spends plenty of time playing catch with them in the yard…

By Stinky

November 28, 2006 09:50 PM | Link to this

Grinch, I don’t find it offensive that you recomended a video sendup of the forbidden love between a rabbit and a New Hamphirite. What offends me is that you recognized the music from “St. Elmo’s Fire”.

By Stinky

November 28, 2006 09:57 PM | Link to this

Jimmy, never got your rating.

By Carolina Lady

November 28, 2006 09:57 PM | Link to this

Stinky - 9:41 - :-)))

By journalist jimmy smith

November 28, 2006 10:02 PM | Link to this

this means lunch is off? oh, the humanity! journalist was so looking forward to lunch with the sda. oh, well it won’t be the last time sda is one at a table for two.

By Paul

November 28, 2006 10:05 PM | Link to this

Read the link I gave you, and don’t make any assumptions about me.

By The Grinch

November 28, 2006 10:08 PM | Link to this

C’mon, man; you know you’ve still got a Rob Lowe poster somewhere in the basement. Really, though; nobody wishes they could erase the memory of the early 80’s more thn I. Unfortunately, it’s like a bad song that won’t get out of your head (case in point).

By Just Curious

November 28, 2006 10:13 PM | Link to this

Southernjackass, you should go ahead and do lunch with jilted jimmy smith. Set jimmy s** in the corner and fire catturds at him with a slingshot.

By Tommy G

November 28, 2006 10:18 PM | Link to this

I cannot awwow Cawowina Wady to wepwesent me in contwact negotiations. I don’t think Cawowina Wady wikes me. She may not wepwesent my best intwests.

By Lew

November 28, 2006 10:26 PM | Link to this

Paul-I agree that Bonds did steroids. Grinch-HGH is supposed to help eyesight. Something I might need. We’ll see if taking the cataract out tomorrow helps. Argue on my children. I’ll see everyone later.

By The(REAL)SouthernJackAss

November 28, 2006 10:27 PM | Link to this

Besmirched again!…the previous comments accredited to my fine name were not mine—and neither are those that are bound to proceed!!!…Good nite all…

By journalist jimmy smith

November 28, 2006 10:27 PM | Link to this

and who can that be? oh, my! it ain’t scarlett and it ain’t rhett. who can be hassling jimmy smith so? let’s pull this little string and see where it leads us …

By The Real Blogger Formerly Known as Billy

November 28, 2006 10:28 PM | Link to this

Paul,

OK……let me show your ignorance by stating a few facts.

1. You stated that Andro and Creatine do nothing for you. Check the post stamped November 28, 2006 0700 PM by you. Here is the quote:
   “Andro and Creatine cannot do that and are two products that do absolutely nothing.” I replied that you were mistaken and I stand by that comment. And I have facts to back that up.

http://www.rocklandroadrunners.org/articles/JPKcreat.html

This link says that Andro and Creatine does do something for you. Oh wait thats the same link you provided.

1. You stated later at November 28, 2006 08:46 PM that in fact Andro and Creatine does do something for you and I reference this quote from that post.

“Creatine and Andro allow your muscles to recoup quicker after a workout.”

Now with those two points how in gods green earth can you qeustion my judgment?

Now STFU

By Rob Lowe

November 28, 2006 10:32 PM | Link to this

Hey, Atlanta was the site of my finest work, back in ‘88.

By The Real Blogger Formerly Known as Billy

November 28, 2006 10:33 PM | Link to this

oh paul here is a better source than the one you listed……I almost choked when i read “the people in the know”…let try a sourcee such as the FDA.

http://www.fda.gov/oc/whitepapers/andro.html

By Stinky

November 28, 2006 10:42 PM | Link to this

CL, thanks. I do picture you doing that.

Jimmy, that was actually my high school wrestling coach’s line.

Grinch, luckily I can get that one out of my head. If only I could get the song from the purple dinosour show out of my head.

By brian

November 28, 2006 10:44 PM | Link to this

I wonder how much Hi Fi Buys will kick in for endorsements should Glavine return?

If, and a big if, Glavine returns I hope everyone will welcome him with open arms. To say again, even if Glavine stays with the Mets he deserves a standing ovation each and every time he steps foot on Turner field. Glavine helped lead us from yearly last place finishes to the streak of division titles. He is the game winning pitcher that clinched our World Series.

Glavine will help the 2007 Braves both on the field and in the clubhouse. Anyone who doesn’t think Glavine could help us on the field did not watch too much baseball last year (past performance of course no guarantee for future performance). Glavine is also a natural leader and would be a huge clubhouse presence for our young team.

I have posted these statements in the past but I think they needed repeating. I cannot imagine $6-8 million, much less leaving $6-8 million on the table for just 2 years of work.

Glavine deserves to be in the Braves ring of fame, win number 300 as a Brave, lead the Braves back to the playoffs, retire at his leisure as a Brave, and enter into the Hall of Fame as a Brave. JS, the Braves, and Atlanta should do everything they can to make each of those happen.

By Tyler

November 28, 2006 10:47 PM | Link to this

Are any of you a member of Shanks’ site? He has an insider story claiming to have breaking news on Glavine. Some message boards are reporting that we have signed him. what have you guys heard?

By The Grinch

November 28, 2006 10:56 PM | Link to this

Stinky, you are an evil man for mentioning the Barney song. Damn you, sir. Now I’m gonna have to take a pill so I can sleep without that crap reverberating in my head. Oh, the Sandmanity!

By Carolina Lady

November 28, 2006 10:56 PM | Link to this

Brian, I have to take exception to this one phrase: “lead the Braves back to the playoffs”.

Anybody who watched John Smoltz pitch last year saw a leader. He gave everything he had in him and then some. I’ve never seen Glavine do anything even remotely close to what Smoltz has done. Just my opinion! :-))

I respect your opinion - I personally just don’t see him ‘leading’ anything, even in the rotation. He’s not coming back as the #1 guy; most likely as #3/#4.

By Just Curious

November 28, 2006 10:57 PM | Link to this

brian, is your last name Glavine?

By flbravesgirl

November 28, 2006 11:07 PM | Link to this

Grinch, the yellow clown shoes post belongs in the blog HOF.

jimmy, loved what you wrote about McCann in your 3:56. Wouldn’t it be great to have more players like him in the game?

KC, get the DVR. I got one as part of my digital cable package and it’s really nice. You can record 2 things at once, you can rewind live TV and it’s really easy to program.

By The Real Blogger Formerly Known as Billy

November 28, 2006 11:07 PM | Link to this

http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ml-braves&msg=84745.1&ctx=0

Here is tyler likely source.

By Jimo

November 28, 2006 11:13 PM | Link to this

Brian are you a Idiot? The Carolina Lady was nice and correct. The Mets can keep him. Braves have other holes to fill with that money.

By flbravesgirl

November 28, 2006 11:16 PM | Link to this

Aaaagghh! Barney on the blog! I know why the dinosaurs are extinct. The adults banded together and killed them all.

CL, I have to agree with your 10:56. Smoltz leaves it all on the field, every game.

By Stinky

November 28, 2006 11:24 PM | Link to this

Grinch, that’s why they call me Stinky.

By Truth

November 28, 2006 11:25 PM | Link to this

You people are living in a dream world—-if Glavine does come back to the Braves, he’s coming back “for Glavine!” It’s not to be a leader, it’s not to be a “presence” in the clubhouse, it’s not to be an “ace”, it’s not to help the Braves get to the playoffs, and it certainly isn’t because he just loves Atlanta and adores Bobby Cox. The only reason Glavine would return to Atlanta is to benefit Glavine! Glavine is the epitome of selfishness, and like he said before, “you people don’t pay his salary!”

By Carolina Lady

November 28, 2006 11:36 PM | Link to this

Truth, isn’t Brian the only one singing TG’s praises here??

Well, the dratted clock will go off early in the morning - good night, all! :-))

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 11:39 PM | Link to this

What I want to know is why the blog is not reacting to the news of Glavine signing. A “journlist” did report it. Bill Shanks from www.scout.com

hmmm could it your waiting for multiple sources or a trusted source such as DOB? Or you did not see it for yourself thats why. hmmmm

By athens rotgut

November 28, 2006 11:39 PM | Link to this

What are Tom Waits best cd? Like Top 2 or 3 that you think a Tom Waits newbie would appreciate?

Only song ive ever heard was GOING OUT WEST. i like it

By berigan

November 28, 2006 11:44 PM | Link to this

Billy, take a gander at what Bonds said about steroids a few years ago…. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/03/06/bonds.quotes/index.html

By Greg in TN

November 28, 2006 11:50 PM | Link to this

Heh… Truth, it’s not all daisies and flowers as far as Glavine’s intentions, but it’s not all about Glavine either. If that’s the case, he tells Gregg Clifton to sit down with Omar Minaya, Peter Angelos, Arte Moreno or any other GM/owner with a wheelbarrow full of cash and have someone show him the money.

Brian, I think Glavine would be nice for us to have in the rotation and I’ve been wavering back and forth as to how important he is to success in 2007. He no doubt would help, question is can there be a happy medium between what he wants to pay and what JS can afford to pay him. DOB also made a point on a previous blog in respect to the no trade clause he would want. Still not sure that a NTC would be a deal stopper and the longer the sound of silence goes on, it may not be a big deal at all since that may mean JS and Clifton are playing Let’s Make A Deal. It could also mean that he’s sniffed a time or two around here and is going to go back to the Mets anyway. Hard to read what will happen.

Now, should Glavine go back to NY, that’s fine with me. I like the idea of applauding a man when he comes back into town with another team (Glavine, Franco, Estrada, et al). It’s a classy thing to do, however that’s about the limit to what I would do. After all, Glavine, Franco, Estrada, Sheffield, Klesko, Marquis and any other former player is there to BEAT the team. Tip your cap to the guy and give him a hand, then after that, root for the home team.

By David O'Brien

November 28, 2006 11:54 PM | Link to this

It’s just about impossible to pick two or three Waits’ CDs/albums to recommend over the others, since all are so good and so many different periods of his career. But I’d start with these four, in no particular order: Rain Dogs, The Heart of Saturday Night, Swordfishtrombones and Mule Variations.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 11:56 PM | Link to this

You whats funny berigan. All those comments can be proved except one. What is also funny is all those comments were made in public and then SI tucks right in the middle a comment from the Grand Jury. Notice the source. Nobody else can comment on the Grand Jury except these reporters. Why cant anyone else corroborate the SF sources story?

“I never asked. When he said it was flaxseed oil, I just said, ‘Whatever.’ It was in the ballpark … in front of everybody. I mean, all the reporters, my teammates, I mean they all saw it. I didn’t hide it.”

— Dec. 4, 2003, during grand jury testimony, according to the San Francisco Chronicle

Let me ask you a question. How mnay of you right now belive that Tom Glavine is a Brave. Bill Shanks reported it on his website.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 28, 2006 11:58 PM | Link to this

You whats funny berigan. All those comments can be proved except one. What is also funny is all those comments were made in public and then SI tucks right in the middle a comment from the Grand Jury. Notice the source. Nobody else can comment on the Grand Jury except these reporters. Why cant anyone else corroborate the SF sources story?

“I never asked. When he said it was flaxseed oil, I just said, ‘Whatever.’ It was in the ballpark … in front of everybody. I mean, all the reporters, my teammates, I mean they all saw it. I didn’t hide it.”

— Dec. 4, 2003, during grand jury testimony, according to the San Francisco Chronicle

Let me ask you a question. How mnay of you right now belive that Tom Glavine is a Brave. Bill Shanks reported it on his website. Honestly.

By Truth

November 28, 2006 11:58 PM | Link to this

Carolina “Lady” I must not have been talking to you then.

By Daybed Wagmoe

November 29, 2006 12:00 AM | Link to this

Truth — since when is taking a huge pay cut to return to the braves an act of selfishness? keep in mind that sticking with the mets would probably give him a better shot at the world series. right now at least, they’re simply a better team.

By TheSouthernJackAss

November 29, 2006 12:02 AM | Link to this

I’m a little partial to Mule Variations myself!…

By JCB

November 29, 2006 12:08 AM | Link to this

DOB- Do you have any insight as to what Bill Shanks breaking news on Glavine is?? Thanks

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 29, 2006 12:10 AM | Link to this

“You whats funny berigan.” supposed to say you know whats funny berigan.

How the hell it posted twice I dont know.

By David O'Brien

November 29, 2006 12:11 AM | Link to this

Billy, just saw this from you: “DOB, back to Iraq…….do not say anything about somehthing you really, I mean really dont know anything about. I dont mean that in a negative tone is theres no way in the world you know more about that than I do.”

Oh, OK. You’ll get no argument from me on that point. So I’ll refrain from saying anything about the subject. Then by the same token, you refrain from saying anything about baseball and Barry. How’s that? (Unless your experience as a military intelligence analyst provided you with as much knowledge about baseball and Barry Bonds as my 12 years covering the sport on a daily basis has provided me. Hey, just using your logic, my man.)

By David O'Brien

November 29, 2006 12:14 AM | Link to this

JCB, if he’s got breaking news, then what’s the news? That he has breaking news?

Listen, we know Glavine is going to sign with one team or the other, perhaps as soon as this week. I know the Braves’ offer will be or is about $7-8 mill. I’d be surprised if the Mets’ offer is only a one-year, $12 mill deal, unless Tom told them specifically that he didn’t want a two-year offer.

Other than that, I don’t know anything more. As I’ve said, neither decision is going to surprise me, really. I’ve gone back and forth with my gut feeling of which way he’s leaning.

I’m going to try the agent once more tonight.

By Steve

November 29, 2006 12:23 AM | Link to this

Not that my opinion matters but if I had to guess I’d say JS is defnitely waiting until Dec 1 to sign Glav IF he is going to so the Bravos wont lose 2 draft picks since Tommys a Class A FA……ALSO I cant see The Mets offering more than 10 million to Tom because in declining his option Tommy got a 3 mill buyout which means that the whole declining makes no sense to begin with and just put the team in a stressfull situation from day one…..I think the Braves can get Tommy for 9-10 million and it would be PURE BS if they didn’t offer him that because he deserves it and Adam EATON!!! gets that money…. Suck it up and pay him the 10 mill!

By Truth

November 29, 2006 12:32 AM | Link to this

Carolina Lady, there’s another one for you.

By David O'Brien

November 29, 2006 12:33 AM | Link to this

OK, here’s the “BREAKING NEWS”: There is no breaking news, not on the Glavine front. I just got off the phone with his agent, and he assured me there has been NO OFFER made by the Braves, no formal discussions regarding potential dollars, etc. Only casual conversations in which they expressed that they’d like to have Tom back, but that’s it.

Mets haven’t made an offer because they’re waiting for Glavine to tell them whether he wants to work something out with Braves. Again, I’d be stunned if it’s not a two-year offer they make, similar to the one Mussina just got from Yanks ($23 mill for two years).

Right now, it a long way from Tom returning to Atlanta. Because as much as he wants to, if the Braves don’t make a competitive offer, and soon, it might quickly become unlikely. Mets have told Glavine they need an answer before the winter meetings, preferably by this weekend.

They need to know so they can go into the meetings in Orlando knowing whether they need to go all-out for Zito or someone else.

Now, why would the Braves be dragging their feet? Didn’t get anything on that from his agent, but I’d guess it’s because the Braves are trying to complete a trade to open up some payroll room or perhaps to open a spot in the rotation, or both. Giles? Likely, I’d say. Hudson? Still seems unlikely, to me, but perhaps not.

I just have a very strong belief that they’re trying to pull off a trade before they make a formal offer to Glavine.

One thing’s for sure: Anyone writing that it’s a done deal, or even that there’s been a formal offer, is giving you bad info.

By Truth

November 29, 2006 12:40 AM | Link to this

Good ol’ selfish Glavine—-just playin’ the Mets for more money—-like a cheap fiddle!

By Truth

November 29, 2006 12:43 AM | Link to this

…and he’s using the Braves for a bow.

By Nathan (You know, THE IDIOT WITH NO INTEGRITY)

November 29, 2006 12:48 AM | Link to this

DOB

The other day (yesterday I think?) you mentioned ALL of the reasons why Glavine shouldn’t get more than Smoltz, and pretty much right down to the last detail, I agree with you.

My question to you (since you’ve obviously conversed with Smoltz - thus knowing him better than I do. LOL!), is this. While Smoltz may be upset/jealous/confused (use whatever description you’d like), if Glavine got a couple of million more than him. At this point in his (Smoltz) career (by that I mean….tick, tock, tick, tock), wouldn’t Smoltz welcome Glavine back into the mix, even at more money than he’s getting just to up the chances of the Braves “making another run”?

Smoltz seems like a pretty smart dude. I would think he’d rather check the ego at the door and have a shot at winning (I suppose we could debate HOW much Glavine changes their chances), rather than “be the highest paid” pitcher on the staff this year, and possibly have the team not quite get there again. I mean, like I said. He seems like a smart dude. I’m sure he’s been paying attention to the RISING costs of quality players to add. Just last year he said he hoped they would address the issues to get what they needed to get back to the “top”. If JS gave Glavine a little more than Smoltz is getting, I seriously doubt, he’d freak out about it. But I could be wrong.

Or when you said all of that, were you referring to “reasons”, JS would use as excuses to NOT offer that much cash, rather than Smoltz being offended?

I STILL think that this whole deal (Glavine), is sooooooo double-edged. I mean, not only would we be adding a pretty solid LOCK of a pitcher to go into the 2 or 3 spot in the rotation (who happens to be one of the GREATEST Atlanta Braves ever), but the part that I’m sure isn’t lost with JS.

HE WOULDN’T BE PITHCING FOR THE METS NEXT YEAR! That’s a big “swing” in quality starts for each team, if you ask me. But who knows? Maybe Hampton AND Hudson tear it up next year and it turns out we don’t need him.

By Daybed Wagmoe

November 29, 2006 12:52 AM | Link to this

that’s a bit surprising. i figured that bill shanks wouldn’t have posted that the braves were close to a contract unless he had solid info…oh well.

DOB - you coming to athens on thursday for the gillian welch show at the melting point? tickets are $30, and supposedly there are only a few left.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 29, 2006 12:55 AM | Link to this

Dave,

I get your point and agree you know more about the way baseball works just as you agree that I am an expert in intelligence. With that said. Can you, as the expert, tell me for a fact that Barry Bonds used steroids. If you can prove it with facts.

Can I for a fact tell you if Iraq had WMD?

I can answer that question but will you honestly believe the answer I give? As I cannot prove with any thing of substance as I cannot reveal my sources. If you dont why. Now logic would tell me that you accpeted the fact I was an expert should believe any answer I give you.

Oh yeah I will never give up talking about baseball or anything else for that matter. If you truly want to talk about that subject…we can do that but you’d likely spank me as I cant prove anything I say as my information comes from a drasticly different enviroment where only a relative few have operated sorta of like a grand jury. Im bragging now so time for me to hit the rack.

What ever you say after this about B. Bonds and steroids wont be responded to by me. You can have the last word.

By Billy (TBFNB)

November 29, 2006 01:03 AM | Link to this

Great info DOB about Tom Glavine

YOu win I’m done. At least with B. Bonds and Steroids. But…But I will never give up my ability to discuss something.

Agian good info on TG.

G’night

By TheSouthernJackAss

November 29, 2006 01:14 AM | Link to this

Damn Billy(TBFNB “expert in intelligence”)- you fit right in with some of these other know-it-all az$monkeys on this blog—Hell!…I think you just might be awarded “Az$monkey of the Day!”…”expert in intelligence”…my my my!!!…

By futurebravesgm2413

November 29, 2006 01:31 AM | Link to this

seems like the abudance of 2nd basemen avalaible in the market may complicate a deal involving Giles. I don’t think Prado is the answer at 2nd base. In winter ball this year he has no extra base hits. I would love to have Johnson at 2nd but I am warming up to the idea of keeping Giles at least for the start of the year. It will give us more options later in season. what does everyone else think.

By TK

November 29, 2006 01:35 AM | Link to this

I have read a lot interesting trades to say the least. I am over the Crawford stuff. I did like the idea to bring John Thomson back. I have two trades that I am going to throw out. Be kind we didn’t kill anyone over the Crawford binge. Marcus Giles and Horacio Ramirez to SD for Jake Peavy. Tim Hudson and Willy Aybar to Baltimore for Brian Roberts. This frees up a good bit of payroll and Peavy and Roberts will cost about what Giles will get. You get a leadoff guy in Roberts. You get Peavy who is 6yrs younger than Hudson. You can keep the LF platoon of Diaz/Langerhans. I think Ryan will improve over last year. No, I don’t think he will be a all-star. But a very solid player who is very good defensively. You may have to add some other players to make this work. But these are the main players. I know some will say SD will not let Peavy go. He had a down year and some injuries. They may listen. Pitching 3rd or 4th in the rotation behind Smoltz, Glavine (?), Hampton should lower his ininings and his chance of injury.

By David O'Brien

November 29, 2006 01:41 AM | Link to this

Daybed, didn’t know about Gillian Welch. That’d be a great show. Don’t know if I can get over to Athens on Thursday, however. And by the time I can decide, it’ll probably be sold out. Wouldn’t want to have to rely on a scalper if I went all the way over…

Hey, regarding the Glavine rumor _ not saying it’s not so, just giving you what the agent told me, and he scoffed at that rumor. Agent has been upfront and honest with me in the past, so I have no reason to believe he’d give me bogus info….

Billy, I was kidding, dude _ I’d never want you to stop discussing baseball. Defending Barry, yes. But not discussing baseball (of course, if you really feel compelled to defend him, I’m not going to try to stop you there, either. But you’d be better off listening to some Tom Waits and letting Barry be Barry. And no, I personally have no first-hand knowledge or evidence of Barry using ‘roids _ thankfully, I might add.)

ANYWAY … I went ahead and wrote a new blog after my conversation with Clifton, since this one was already getting a bit bogged down. REPEATING, there’s a new blog posted, for those still awake.

By KC

November 29, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

ChickenGizzard:

Yes, I agree that the Mets have the money to fix their rotation. However, this year in particular, having money is NO guarantee that they’ll be able to get it done. First of all, it’s not like there is an abundance of great starting pitching on the free agent market. And second, there are a LOT of hands in the cookie jar this year. Here is an excerpt from something that appeared on SI.com yesterday:

“The Cubs, anxious to steal the winter and maybe the summer, too, are now pursuing star free-agent pitcher Jason Schmidt, SI.com has learned. The Cubs already have spent $239 million on free agents (including the $10 million they used for new manager Lou Piniella), and two high-ranking baseball people said they are bidding about $45 million over three years for Schmidt in attempt to lure him away from the West Coast. It may not be easy in his case. The Yankees showed interest in Schmidt several days ago but were told that he didn’t want to move all the away across the country, to New York.”

It’s not just the Mets, Yankees, Red Sox, and Dodgers in the hunt for big ticket starters this year. It’s also the Cubs, Cardinals, even the Mariners, and possibly the Angels, White Sox, Astros, and others.

Your ace (Pedro) won’t return until at least half-way through the season, and when he does return, there’s not telling if he’ll be the same pitcher. There is a 90% total recovery rate for pitchers returning from elbow surgery, but not so for shoulder surgery. There is a significant chance that Pedro’s stuff, already diminished by injuries over the years, could wane further after this shoulder surgery.

Glavine is in limbo right now, so the only three starters you really have set for opening day are O.Hernandez, J.Maine, and O.Perez… ouch.

There is going to be a bidding war for Barry Zito, Andy Pettitte (even though he’s coming off a rough season) and even guys like Jeff Suppan. And as I’ve already mentioned, the Mets will be FAR from the only team participating in these bidding wars. There’s maybe 1 or 2 aces on market (Schmidt and Zito), 2 or 3 other quality pitchers, and that’s about it. There are actually more teams looking for starting pitchers than there are quality starting pitcher available, and the Mets need to sign 2 or 3 of them (depending on whether Glavine stays in NY or returns to ATL).

Good luck.

As for Atlanta… Smotlz, Hudson, Hampton, James, Ramirez/Glavine?

The Mets have got a ways to go just to match Atlanta’s rotation heading into next season, let alone to top it.

By Conway

November 30, 2006 12:54 PM | Link to this

DIAZ - One thing that has been nagging (sp?) at me is the breakout season he had, and how there is no talk about him being an everyday starter. I could even see him batting leadoff, Giles #2, Renteria #3, and so on down the lineup. He is fast, good contact hitter, and is very capable of doubles. I do not think that we need to trade Giles, just put him back at #2 in the lineup. And for Godsakes, make Diaz a starter. I wasnt a fan of him earlier in the season, but he wasnt gettin enough playing time, and look what happened when he did! The starting rotation is going to be there this year, even depth; and the bullpen is already better with Wickman. All of the pieces are there, I just hope Schuerholz puts Diaz in the line-up full time, doesnt have to be lead-off although with the way he plays the game; he could be the key to alot of things.

By Stinky

December 1, 2006 11:00 PM | Link to this

Wow, knocked Davida O’Brainless off his blog again.

By Cancel my AJC subscription

December 2, 2006 12:47 AM | Link to this

DOB doesn’t feel like blogging, he’s had enough—so the blog is disabled and no one else is allowed to make comments either…I am cancelling my AJC subscription, for what it’s worth, and DOB can blog with himself from now on.