Braves

By nathan

November 9, 2006 05:37 PM | Link to this

Nice job. DOB

My long posts bogged down the last blog.

Sounds like just a little hardball/posturing by SD. But who knows maybe one Giles brother NOT putting up big numbers in their spacious pard is enough.

By Joe Black

November 9, 2006 05:39 PM | Link to this

Great post, but if that trade were to go down, who would we put at second? Any thoughts on that ?

By Robert

November 9, 2006 05:42 PM | Link to this

Tennessee Paul

Jim Leyland - Went to the playoffs three times with the Pirates. I am curious who this cast of greatest players was on those teams. Barry Bonds and who? Jay frickin Bell? Don Slaught? Andy Van Slyke maybe? or was it Bobby Bonilla or Doug Drabek? I bet there’s a total of 3 HOF votes (from family members) among those 5 guys

The Pirates improved so much after Leyland left that they are looking for their first winning season since his departure

Leyland took over the Marlins in 1997 and a team that had never made the playoffs promptly won the World Series. They got so much better after he left that it wasnt until Jack McKeon (another GREAT manager by the way) took over midway thru 2003 that they had THEIR next winning season

And we all KNOW how good Detroit was recently before Leyland took THEM to the World Series this year

Regarding Cox and the Blue Jays - Hew took over in 1982 and had two completely average years in 82 and 83

In 84 and 85, the Blue Jays had great pitching - Stieb, Alexander, and Leal one year and Stieb, Alexander, and Key in 85 -not exactly Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, but pretty darn good

Toronto finished 2nd in 1984, but they were 15 games out of 1st and 4 games ahead of fifth, so it’s misleading

And of course in 1985 Cox dirtied his diaper in the World Series for the first time, blowing a 3-1 lead. A spectacular preview of misadventures to come

By Troy

November 9, 2006 05:46 PM | Link to this

Wade Miller resigned with the Cubs that sucks I was hoping JS would take a chance on him, he could rebound and be a pretty good pitcher

By Robert

November 9, 2006 05:48 PM | Link to this

I dont know if it’s possible, but I’d LOVE to know what the Braves record is in games in which Cox got ejected

By john

November 9, 2006 05:50 PM | Link to this

DOB - you headed to the My Morning Jacket show on Sunday. I can’t wait

By Justin

November 9, 2006 05:53 PM | Link to this

A few options….Aybar, Prado or maybe even see if Pena (although his D at SS is phenominal, might not want him to learn a new position). With the way Escobar tore up the AFL, maybe even see if he can play 2B. LOTS of options actually….

By BravesFaninRockies

November 9, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this

Hey, Robert’s back! Try to contain your enthusiasm …

By nathan

November 9, 2006 05:55 PM | Link to this

DOB

Or should I say George Thoroughgood.

Thanx for the “response” on the whole Yankee stadium clubhouse thing. I never really put much stock in it either. As a matter of fact whoever said probably was right! Unfortunately they (the team) choked. Of course, god forbid ANYBODY give the Yanks any credit for hanging tough. That’s enough on that subject for one day. I relate the comment (if it was ever made) to “guy talk” when the wives aren’t around. If you don’t wanna hear what they’re sayin about you. Then don’t “eavesdrop”. I’m sure MUCH worse has been and will be said. I’ve always wanted to here some of the trash talk (unedited) that happens on an NFL field during a game. I’m sure it’s pleasant and not demeaning in any way, shape, or form. LOL!

Robert

When I made the comment about having 3 HOF pitchers and not being able to screw that up. I was referring to JS, not Bobby. I know you know that. But I felt it neccessary to explain myself anyway. I - from a sarcastic person’s point of view - enjoy most of you’re posts. They’re “entertaining” to say the least, in a Howard Stern, insulting kinda way. But sometimes you go a little overboard. WE ALL GET IT. You don’t like Bobby. I’m sure if you ask him nicely next time, he’ll sign your baseball for you. Hell, he might even pose in a picture and give you a hug. Then you can cross him off of your “people to kill” list. Yes, that’s a cheap Billy Madison - Steve Buscemi reference.

By Troy

November 9, 2006 05:57 PM | Link to this

Any thoughts on Justin Duchsherer from the A’s that guy is filthy, could we package something to get him?

By KneeJerk

November 9, 2006 06:01 PM | Link to this

You failed to mention Leyland’s time with the Rockies. You also failed to mention that he QUIT 3 managerial jobs. Did you mention Luis Leal as great pitching? Keep ‘em coming. And the Jimmy Key of ‘85 was not the Jimmy Key of the late 90’s. Pittsburgh had a solid team. Jeff King, Jay Bell, Bonilla, Bonds, van Slyke were all All-Star caliber, as well as Drabek. Every baseball fan knows that the Marlins purchased the ‘97 WS. Brought in free agents and sold them away after they won. That’s why they were so terrible after Leyland left. They restocked with kids that would pay off for them down the road (2003). The ‘98-‘02 pitiful Marlins had nothing to do with Leyland leaving. What was his Colorado legacy? Nothing more than cigarette butts in the dugout.

By KneeJerk

November 9, 2006 06:09 PM | Link to this

In ‘85 the Blue Jays weren’t in the World Series. The Royals were.

By Robert

November 9, 2006 06:14 PM | Link to this

No I didnt mention Luis Leal as “great pitching”

FYI in 1984 he pitched 222.1 innings with an ERA of 3.89 - not a bad third starter

My point was that the Blue Jays teams that Cox had some “sucksess” with had pretty darn good pitching

By Robert

November 9, 2006 06:17 PM | Link to this

“I’m sure if you ask him nicely next time, he’ll sign your baseball for you”

Nathan, I am against capital punishment, even for baseballs

By The Grinch

November 9, 2006 06:19 PM | Link to this

KC, sorry; thought you were defending the Reitsma decision. I sort of naturally went off into the other ones I couldn’t figure out, either.

By Robert

November 9, 2006 06:20 PM | Link to this

“In ‘85 the Blue Jays weren’t in the World Series. The Royals were”

I stand corrected. It was in fact the Division series against the Royals that he soiled the mound

He had to wait another six years before he could pull the trick in the World Series

By Robert

November 9, 2006 06:32 PM | Link to this

“And the Jimmy Key of ‘85 was not the Jimmy Key of the late 90’s”

Indeed, the Jimmy Key of 1985 had an ERA of 3 for over 210 innings. The Jimmy Key of the late 90’s had an ERA under 4.2 once in four years

“Jeff King, Jay Bell, Bonilla, Bonds, van Slyke were all All-Star caliber, as well as Drabek.”

So Leyland is no good because he couldnt win with the likes of Jeff King and Jay Bell - or he is no good because when they win the team is just bought

But Cox is awesome even when he flsuhes the toilet on big budget teams with lock HOFers and other possible HOFers all up and down the roster (4 on the 93 and 94, 5 in 99, Braves, 6 in 96, 7 in 98, and 7 or perhaps 8 in 97

All cuz he found a dollar in the urinal in 2003

By Robert

November 9, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this

“What was his Colorado legacy? Nothing more than cigarette butts in the dugout.”

That is brilliant. Leyland had a one year stint in Colorado. His best starter was Pedro Astacio, with an ERA of 5. He didnt perform a miracle. So this negates the fact that three other teams clearly were better when he was there and got worse after he left

The one outweighs the many

Consistant I guess.

Same way that with Cox the one questionably decent job he did in 2003 outshines every brain fart he ever had for 12 years before and three years since

Truth be told, there’s no use arguing with logic like yours

By Goldie White

November 9, 2006 06:52 PM | Link to this

Robert,

Cox has consistently managed team to division titles. You can argue with that, and you will…but it makes no sense to base your evaluation of him on the playoff record. The playoffs are a crapshoot. Get hot for 3 or 4 games and you can win. Getting in the playoffs for 15 years straight…thats the major accomplishment, which takes consistently good performance over 162 game seasons…as opposed to 5 or 7 games series.

By David

November 9, 2006 07:01 PM | Link to this

Great post, I hope the Braves don’t trade Giles. While the Braves have lots of options, I don’t know that any of those options are good options. It seems like all of them have problems either on defense (Aybar), offense (Pena) or are unproven (Prado, Escobar).

BTW The reliever was Andrew Brown, who was a Brave, then sent to LA in the Sheffield deal, then to Cleveland in the Milton Bradley deal.

By Tomahawkin

November 9, 2006 07:05 PM | Link to this

I don’t really care whos in the blow-pen as long as it ain’t Reeksma…Tyler Yates is bad enought, even though I hate to see Giles leave I know its gonna happen…

By Tomahawkin

November 9, 2006 07:14 PM | Link to this

Good David, I’m wit ya on Giles, Giles is a rare commodity, especially since his defense is vastly improved, You’ll be hard pressed to find a second baseman with good D that is capable of hitting 25 homeruns and stealing 15 bases/season…

If if makes you guys any happier, we can go back to the days of Keith Lockhart at second…

By KneeJerk

November 9, 2006 07:41 PM | Link to this

Leyland didn’t want to put forth the effort to build a winner in Colorado. They bought him a winner in Florida. Don’t get me wrong, I think Leyland is hands-down the manager of the year in 2006. He did a remarkable job with a woeful franchise. Having said that,over he past 15 years I’ll take Cox over Leyland 11 times out of 10.

By Robert

November 9, 2006 07:46 PM | Link to this

“Cox has consistently managed team to division titles. “

Big deal. A division title means that you are better than three or four other teams. Tough task when you have consistantly 4-6 HOfers on your roster

“The playoffs are a crapshoot.”

No they aren’t

“Getting in the playoffs for 15 years straight…thats the major accomplishment”

Under some circumstances it might be. But a priori, no, it’s not. Load a team with three HOF starters, add a plethora of star offensive players, and throw it in a division where the only two teams who consistantly have the payroll to put together a contender have deficient front offices and in those circumstances, it aint no big deal

Take the Braves out of the NL East and put them in Little League and they might make the playoffs 17 or even 18 times in a row - still no big deal

A great manager is one who consistantly leads his team to overachivement. Cox doesnt come within spitting distance of even breaking even here.

The talk of overachievement in the past few years is absolute bullhockey. Cox has yet to manage a team that hasnt had at LEAST 3 future HOFers on the roster.

Maybe it’s all relative

I guess taking a team with 3 to the playoffs might be considered overachieving if in the past you’ve s** the bed with teams with 6 and 7 future HOFers on the roster

This year’s team had 3 HOfers on the roster and finished a game ahead of a team picked by the baseball experts to challenge the 62 Mets for alltime worst honors.

That’s managing I tell ya

How many times do you have to watch a man turn gold into lead before it becomes obvious he is a dipstick?

By Tomahawkin

November 9, 2006 07:49 PM | Link to this

Somethings Wrong if Leyland doesn’t win M.O.Y. in the AL, And I don’t Care if the Cards and LaRussa won the World Series, Joe Girardi turned a team that was supposed to lose 110 games this year into playoff contenders…

By Robert

November 9, 2006 07:51 PM | Link to this

You do that - take Cox - and take the 27 Yankees with them if you want to

Give me Leyland, one arm,Happy, Dopey, Sleepy, Big Bird, Grover and I like my chances

Dude, Cox spends the bulk of most games either

1.stewing over ball and strike calls 2.picking his nose 3.1+2 at the same time 4.making decisions that lose ballgames or 5.chewing his cud with a vacant stare on his face perhaps thinking up his next idiotic comment to give to the press

By Robert

November 9, 2006 07:53 PM | Link to this

Actually, I think Cox should get Manager of the Year

After all, the award is for the manager who had the biggest impact on his team’s performance

Heck, he should have about 20 of those awards

By Tomahawkin

November 9, 2006 08:00 PM | Link to this

Robert, I’m not bashing Cox but I hate when he covers the players backs after losses that the fans knew would happen, For instance Everytime he brought in Reeksma to blow games, and defended his back saying “that he pitched great.”

Jim Leyland or Sweet Lou wouldn’t put up wit dat crap…

By Tomahawkin

November 9, 2006 08:21 PM | Link to this

Damn, I had no Idea that Todd Pratt is a Free agent, he definitely should come back next year, I thought he was the best backup we’ve had since Eddie Perez…

By stew

November 9, 2006 08:30 PM | Link to this

I like Linebrink. I wouldn’t give up Giles for him. Aybar, Prado, and Pena aren’t everyday players. I don’t think Escobar can cut it defensively. We have to awitch Giles and Renteria in the lineup. We gotta make an offer to Andruw or else he’s gonna walk and we won’t get anything for him. He’s the greatest player in the history of the franchise even if he can’t hit .270. S** or get off the bowl.

By The Grinch

November 9, 2006 08:34 PM | Link to this

T’hawkin’, please tell me you were being sarcastic there. Todd Pratt is about as useful as %$#@ on a pump-handle.

By Lew

November 9, 2006 08:53 PM | Link to this

I’d rather have Damon Berryhill as a backup catcher than Todd Pratt.

By Tomahawkin

November 9, 2006 08:53 PM | Link to this

Whatt…? Todd Pratt was hard, I loved that dude, he calls a good game and he shows a lot of emotion, especially when pitchers get hit, I don’t know if you saw his collapse, and then shouted off a few expletives when Jorge Sosa gave up that game winning homer to Pay-Rod and the yanks, but put it this way he’s no worse than Paul Bako, and Pena…

By Tomahawkin

November 9, 2006 08:54 PM | Link to this

Oh Shyt…Gotta go watch the O.C., Check ya later romeo…

By Maine Braves Fan

November 9, 2006 08:58 PM | Link to this

I hope the braves do alot of trades this offseason. I want a quality starter. Tim Hudson its been nice knowing you but you have to go. Bring back Maddux and Glavine and we will light the old flame. But if not go out and get this team alot of good players. Cant wait til next year.

By Lew

November 9, 2006 09:01 PM | Link to this

Pratt can’t block a pitch in the dirt. All he can hit is into double plays.

By J-MAN

November 9, 2006 09:02 PM | Link to this

Wait a minute Bobby Cox is in mine and many other great baseball minds (i.e. Peter Gammons)one the greatest in-game managers ever and to just say his a terrible amnager now just because he didn’t make the playoffs is laughable. Cox is the best manager in the league Period and the only reason the Bravos didn’t make the playoffs is because we didn’t go after a closer like we should of, blame the AOL-Time Warner owners and JS for that. And people saying that Leyland is better well here is my case for Cox Leyland has won 1 series Cox has won 1 as well, Leyland was in another Coxwas in 4 others Leyland has managed teams to 5 different playoff births Cox has managed over 15 invites to the playoffs. Leyland gave up on three teams during rough times Cox has never given up on any of his teams. The only guys you can compare to Cox is LaRussa and Joe Torre. And another thing Lou Pinella is mostly hype he has only one 1 WS as well and he choked the 120 win 2001 Mariners so don’t talk about Cox chokes which he has had but thats the nature of the game.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 9, 2006 09:10 PM | Link to this

LOS ANGELES (AP) -Los Angeles Dodgers outfielder J.D. Drew opted out of the final three years of his contract Thursday, making him an unrestricted free agent.

Drew, who turns 31 on Saturday, hit .283 with 20 homers and 100 RBIs last season - his second with the Dodgers. He signed a five-year, $55 million contract on Dec. 23, 2004, and had been guaranteed $33 million over the next three years with Los Angeles.

Drew was limited to 72 games in his first year with Los Angeles by injuries, hitting .286 with 15 homers and 36 RBIs. Previously, he played with St. Louis from 1998-03 and with Atlanta in 2004, where he batted a career-best .305 with 31 homers and 93 RBIs.

By brian

November 9, 2006 09:11 PM | Link to this

what is the latest on Glavine? I saw that he provisionally filed for free agency. Is he putting the squeeze on the Mets or is he serious about returning to the Braves?

Should the Braves resign Glavine, I bet JS would move Hudson and his salary.

Has Escobar received any PT at 2B during the Arizona league?

By David O'Brien

November 9, 2006 09:25 PM | Link to this

J-Man, don’t get too worked up trying to respond about The Obsession. It’s not going to work. Most here have learned to deal with it. The man’s entitled to his opinion, and even entitled to try relentlessly to persuade others to come around to his way of thinking. I’d guess that very, very few have actually changed their opinions of Cox based on The Obsession, since it’s hard to throw out every other opinion we hear from folks ranging from Gammons, as you mentioned, to Jayson Stark (who wrote a long dissertation a year ago on ESPN.com about why Cox is the best manager of our time) to the players (who overwhelming have voted him the best manager in baseball for two straight seasons in the Sports Illustrated players’ survey, the one where players can’t vote for their own manager), to the GMs (such as Omar Minaya, who this year told me Cox was the best baseball man he’s ever known).

But there’s certainly nothing wrong with passion, and this is Robert’s thing. So let him be. Better to care about something enough to keep hammering away, than to care about nothing enough to argue.

Besides, keep in mind that _ if I’m not mistaken _ Robert believed Tony La Russa should have been fired long before he got a chance to win a second World Series this year in his 13th trip to the postseason. Am I correct, Robert? I’m not being a smarta&#, just wanted to be sure I’m correct on that _ you would’ve had him fired after going 1-for-12 in winning world series titles, right?

By David O'Brien

November 9, 2006 09:30 PM | Link to this

Glavine hasn’t made a decision, was waiting until after the Saturday deadline for him to decline his player option at $7.5 mill. That was a given, as was conditionally filing for free agency, because he and the Mets can keep negotiating a new deal. Mets are going to offer him a TON more than Braves, and it still seems unlikely to me that he’ll take much less to return to Atlanta. He’ll be back with the Mets, I’m fairly certain.

Escobar hasn’t played 2B out there. Braves can do that in the spring, if they want him to play there. He’s played there a little in the past.

Jimmy, that Drew development just reinforces the notion that salaries and payrolls are going to rise significantly with a lot of teams now that the new collective bargaining agreement is in place and everyone knows that baseball revenues are far higher than ever before. Remember, Boras is his agent.

By David O'Brien

November 9, 2006 09:31 PM | Link to this

…That said, I still find it a bit shocking that Drew would turn down a guaranteed $33 mill over the next three years. Obviously, Boras must have something else lined up already for J.D.

By David O'Brien

November 9, 2006 09:37 PM | Link to this

J.D. Drew has hit .284 with 46 doubles, 7 triples, 35 homers and 136 RBIs for the Dodgers. Which would be tremendous production _ if it was for one season.

Those are his two-year totals for the Dodgers.

By dadgum

November 9, 2006 09:38 PM | Link to this

Cox is a good manager overall but frankly the players have absolutely sucked in more postseasons than Cox. There comes a time when you just have to say it like it is and the Braves of late have just choked in the postseason. Folks I can’t sugar coat it. You can look up the stats and spin it anyway you want but don’t blame it all on Cox.

The Braves are in the long running process of weeding out the old and bringing in teh new with replacements. Every team does this in this era of free agency. I am all for it. This dude won’t be shedding any tears when Chippper, Smoltz, Andruw, et al are gone. A new regime brings renewed vigor and excitement with expectations down the road. Get used to it blogger dudes the Braves will morph into a new animal and you will like it. Go Braves!!!

By dadgum

November 9, 2006 09:45 PM | Link to this

DOB….you are right on with your points. Keep on keeping on dude. One day I will come back to the ATL and buy the beer.

By tvsportscaster

November 9, 2006 09:55 PM | Link to this

DOB, I still think you’re wrong about Tom Glavine. If he were going to return to New York I think he would have done it by now. I think his family wants him to come back to Atlanta and that’s what he’s going to do. Again, the man has a ton of money and I don’t think that’s going to be the underlying factor. Just my opinion, but I think I’m right.

By TennesseePaul

November 9, 2006 10:29 PM | Link to this

DOB: Nice blog. Thanks for the new post.

This J.D. business isn’t very shocking to me. I knew this guy was going to jump ship. He could have won the WS twice in a row and every post season award there is and he still would have opted out. Ned Colletti’s interview about this is incredible. It’s almost like you can see him biting his tongue.
JD and Glavine are both ready to dive into the pool. Sheffield is in full post season form. This Hot Stove is heating up just fine!

By TennesseePaul

November 9, 2006 10:44 PM | Link to this

DOB: I don’t know if you keep up with Mark Bowman in the offseason, I’d assume not after reading his latest piece.

*”We want to re-strengthen our pitching staff,” Schuerholz said. “We want to get it back to where it was in years past.”

While there has been an overwhelming belief that Schuerholz’s biggest offseason need is to acquire a leadoff hitter, he seems committed to strengthening a pitching staff that was weakened by injuries and bullpen woes this past season.*
—Mark Bowman, MLB.com

Now I’ve been reading the papers, you’re articles, AP articles and everything in between and the only thing I’ve heard from JS is that Pitching is going to be the big thing this offseason for the Braves. I haven’t been too “overwhelmed” with the opinion from anyone other than Bowman that a lead-off hitter is the key part to this team. Everytime this guy writes, it’s about the leadoff spot. That guy… (shaking my head)

By Scalp 'em Braves

November 9, 2006 10:54 PM | Link to this

Musings on posts over the past 24 hours…
Robert - dude, can you possibly ever talk about anything but your hate for Bobby Cox? Geez - if you want credibility here, find something else to discuss or tail about.

Nathan - great post about Sheffield, and perfect name for the dolt - JACKASS!! Regarding Abreau (sp?), I remember Cashman saying after the Stankees traded for him the he is “an on base machine” -well said, especially in light of his performance in the post season. One of the few Stankees that actually did something. As for Sheffield, hope he has to settle for “only” a few million this year, and languishes on the bench because of his injuries, attitude, and his uncanny ability to CHOKE when it counts.

Giles - I have mixed emotions about trading him. There is an intrinsic value to guy like him being on the team. Gutty, lays it all out every time he has a play or is at bat. But, the money thing comes into play. Can’t make up my mind on this one. Sorry, but I’d like to see him here next year.

Glaving - loved Tommy while he was here. Had no ill will for him leaving. He wanted a deal that would allow him enough time to get to 300. Braves weren’t in the market for that. Don’t blame him for leaving. I pull for him anytime except when he is pitching against us. If the Muts want to pay him $20 million+ for two years, have at it. As long as he goes in the HOF (which isn’t a guarantee anymore, even with 300 wins) with a Braves hat, I’m ok with that.

Final thought (for now) - I laughed at the story about Lonnie Smith buying a gun and wanting to cap JS. Probably would have been the first “Skate-By Shooting” in history.

Scalp ‘Em Braves!!

By Scalp 'em Braves

November 9, 2006 11:02 PM | Link to this

Watching the “Big Least” showdown. Can you believe this? Gawd, give me an SEC slobberknocker any day. But, am happy that “Leastville” is now out of the BCS championship mix.

By stoph

November 9, 2006 11:16 PM | Link to this

JD Drew returns to Atlanta?

Could it be that JD Drew is passing up $33M with LA Dodgers to return to Atlanta - site of his best season - because he values family, home, and success more than the $$$$$$$ BORE-a* chased him out of Atlanta for…?

Hmmmmmmm

By geauxbraves2000

November 9, 2006 11:22 PM | Link to this

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I keep reading where Glavine hasn’t made up his mind where to stay in NY or come back to ATL. So I ask, have there been any indications from the Braves’ brass that they want Glavine to come back? Maybe the Braves have no desire to offer him a contract.

Personally I say stay in NY.

Geaux Braves!!

By The Grinch

November 9, 2006 11:27 PM | Link to this

I love it. Where are all the Big East apologists now? Your team couldn’t even beat Rutgers with a 25-7 lead.

J.D. Drew is letting 33 mil. go by? Who in the hell does he think’s stupid enough to give him even half that much elsewhere? I’m baffled. If Boras has actually talked some team into giving more than 11 per to that “I’m either loafing or on the DL (or both), but I’ve got tons of upside” fool, then he must indeed be one smooth-tongued individual. Sickening. Night, all; I switched liquors tonight and it hit me harder than I was expecting. Time for a snack and a snooze.

By nathan

November 9, 2006 11:36 PM | Link to this

Scalp ‘em Braves

Probably would have been the first “Skate-By Shooting” in history.

Sad that there could be any humor in a disturbing story like that one. But my friend, I think you’ve “found” it. That people, is the FUNNIEST thing posted in a night when most posts were quite humorous! Well done!

Just imagine what he might had in store for Knoblauch. Whatever it was that he may of had planned for Chuck, I’m sure he got “decoyed” off target!

By Conspiracy Theorist Stinky

November 9, 2006 11:50 PM | Link to this

Scott Boras has guaranteed Drew’s 33 million dollars out of his own considerable war chest. It is a reward to Drew for letting his agent do his thinking for him.

Here’s why. If Boras get’s Drew 15 mil / season, what’s Andruw going to get?

Is this a Huge Gamble? No. Boras is a lawyer. He’ll work the “everybody hates Scott Boras (except for DOB) angle” and litigate on grounds of collusion.

He’ll win and get his own franchise in the settlement, most likely the Marlins. He’ll move them to Las Vegas, negotiating a very favorable package and then sell the team in a cash rich swap.

By brent

November 9, 2006 11:54 PM | Link to this

If we move Giles, I see an opportunity to pick up Pierre for say 7 mil/year. Put him in left, and bat leadoff, and move Aybar to 2nd, batting 8th. Would be a significant improvement for a lineup that was second in the NL in runs last year… not to mention the great defensive outfield we’d have.

By dfree

November 9, 2006 11:55 PM | Link to this

carl crawford, get him, now

By dfree

November 9, 2006 11:56 PM | Link to this

i mean right now, damnit js

By nathan

November 9, 2006 11:58 PM | Link to this

stoph

Could it be that JD Drew is passing up $33M with LA Dodgers to return to Atlanta

Unless he can now pitch (which would be about the ONLY reason he might make more than the 33 million over the next three years), I’m not sure we have a use for him. Hell, if he can pitch, maybe Jaret Wright suddenly knows how to play 2B and hit leadoff! While we’re on the topic of X-Braves who shined in ATL only to drop off of the face of the earth: let’s list the all “I was good with the Braves, made a BUNCH of money & now I’m Sh*t” Team:

Chris Hammond

Jeff Blauser

Jaret Wright

John Burkett

JD Drew

Javy Lopez

Kyle Farnsworth

Denny Neagle

Terry “rubber arm” Muholland

Rudy Seanez

Steve Karsay

Rafael Furcal (ok, he’s not really that bad….but not worth 13 million a year!)

Albie Lopez….Oh wait THAT GUY SUCKED EVERY YEAR that wasn’t 1993!

Julio Franco

Gary Sheffield (see Furcal)

Shane Reynolds

Russ Ortiz

That about raps that up! I’m sure there’s more. But that was “fun enough” for one night!

By The Grinch

November 10, 2006 12:03 AM | Link to this

One last comment before bed: Brent, I got the whole Pierre leading off thing, but improving the defense? You really think he’s better than Langy defensively? The guy throws like Dakota Fanning.

By Voice of Reason

November 10, 2006 12:06 AM | Link to this

The hot rumor in Cincinatti is that the Reds would like to acquire Giles from ATL to play 2B, allowing them to move Brandon Phillips to SS, where they desperately lacked last year. Gilly would tear up that Little League park. Also, there are hints there that Adam Dunn might be available… Maybe a match can be found. I wouldn’t mind seeing big Dunn in LF next year, batting 5th behind AJ. Perhaps sign FA Craig Counsell for 2B and leadoff and you’d have a pretty decent 1-8 lineup.

By vic

November 10, 2006 12:10 AM | Link to this

we should should think about some of our past success are free for pick up. J.d, glavine,sheff,and maddux are all capable of helping the braves if they accept a hometown discount.

By nathan

November 10, 2006 12:16 AM | Link to this

brent

Would be a significant improvement for a lineup that was second in the NL in runs last year… not to mention the great defensive outfield we’d have.

I’ll give you the “offense” part of the equation. Many will argue that unless Aybar (or whoever would replace him at 2B), would have to “produce” big time to replace Giles’ numbers. However, I’m not one of those people. I agree with you. Adding a leadoff hitter that “slaps” the ball all around, the way a leadoff hitter is supposed to do, get’s on base by any means neccessary and can steal his share of bases, will do MUCH more for the rest of the hitters, and the over all EFFECTIVENESS of the lineup. So on that note, I have very little issues with Pierre as a LF/leadoff hitter. He’s a much better roster than ANYBODY on the 40 man roster as we speak.

That being said…..

Our defense in the outfield would be great range wise. But the “sally” arm that Pierre brings to the part would ALL but negate Francoeurs GUN in RF. For every run or extra base Jeff saves, be it throwing guys out or the mere threat of him doing so, Pierre would give as many if NOT MORE back to the opposition. His throws make the 16 hopper that Bonds chucked to home plate trying to get Bream out look like a laser beam.

Obviously, Langerhans is no leadoff hitter. But IMO, he is FAR SUPERIOR to Pierre in LF.

I believe that JS has two options for a leadoff hitter. Each is quite obvious for anybody that watched the Braves last year, based on the production from all of the other “positions” on the field.

1) Find a LF that could be a leadoff hitter (Pierre and his rainbow maker) could be an option. By using LF than we essentially could fill the 2B (assuming Giles is traded) with just about anybody that can catch. The 2B would obviously bat 8th.

or

2) Basically the same theory, just flipped around. If one of the middle infielders in the system can bat leadoff, of JS finds one who can, then the LF spot could be filled by any combination of Langerhans, Diaz, Kelly Johnson, Brian Jordan, (aaww, c’mon you KNOW he’s gonna get a spring invite and then probably MAKE THE DAMN TEAM!). Or, like DOB said the other day, there is a chance that the Braves convert Escobar to LF. Who the hell knows. But I’m PRETTY SURE it’s not gonna be JD Drew or Gary Sheffield! LOL!

By gotigers72

November 10, 2006 12:21 AM | Link to this

Is Terry Mulholland still pitching? If he is, it must be hard to pitch from behind that walker.

I truly wish the Braves wouldn’t trade Marcus. As DOB said, one of the best all around 2nd basemen in MLB. He had an off year offensively last year, but remember the changes he had to go through. Not batting second, not hitting behind Rafael [you know he got a lot of fastballs with Furcal on base], had probably never hit leadoff in his life. He hit much better in the 2nd half after finally adjusting somewhat.

But he didn’t fall off defensively, or in baserunning [probably one of the best baserunners the Braves have], or in hustle. And he has TONS of heart. He also said toward the end of the year that he WANTS to be a Brave, and that is worth a lot right there. He’s one of my favorite players because of his enthusiasm and the fact that he loves the game and doesn’t take it for granted. I live 10 miles from Greenville, SC, where Marcus played AA ball. You could tell just by the way he approached the game then that he would be an above average player in MLB one day. He is more than that. Any fan that watches him regularly and can’t tell that doesn’t know much about baseball.

Good luck Marcus, wherever you are next year. I hope it’s in Atlanta. Please JS, don’t let this guy get away.

By vic

November 10, 2006 12:25 AM | Link to this

WHICH FORMER BRAVE WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE BACK???

1.SHEFF

2.GLAVINE

3.MADDUX

4.J.D

By Scalp 'em Braves

November 10, 2006 12:31 AM | Link to this

Nathan - thank for the props. Was astounded to see “Skates” come out of the woodwoork, especially after JS gave him a chance with the Braves, and he rewards us with helping to blow the WS for us against the Twins.

Brent - wishful thinking on Pierre - I like the guy, but I don’t like the way he wears his hat, and though he has speed to run down balls in the outfield, he throws like a girl (apologies to FBG and CL). He has great lead off potential, but I’ll take Langerhans over him any day.

BOR-A* - this guy is the biggest scourge on baseball today. I know he is just “representing his client”, “getting his client what the market will bear”, etc. As for J.D. Drew, I hope that the owners smell what is going on here, and give him what he is worth - which is a lot less than “franchise player” money. The guy has had, what, 2 or 3 good seasons out of 10? After sitting out a year in the International League because he wasn’t getting the signing bonus he deserved? As my grandfather said, when we caught something below the limit, fuuuuuk him and feed him to the fish!!! If the Braves sign this jerk, I won’t be a Braves fan anymore!!! “J(ust) D(raw money) Drew can take his road show elsewhere. Just goes to show that any town (including the Arse Hole’s home town) can turn out a lazy, money grubbing dirt ball.

Do you get the impression I don’t like this guy, or his agent?

By nathan

November 10, 2006 12:31 AM | Link to this

Voice of Reason

I too was “thinking” Craig Councell for 2B and leadoff. But that was based on past numbers. When I looked up his 2006 stats, he makes what Giles did in the leadoff position look like the second coming of Ricky Henderson. Not a good season for him. Was he hurt? I couldn’t tell you, didn’t follow the Diamondbacks all that closely. But you are on the right path, if it’s gonna come via free agency. Maybe to the shagrin of Robert, Councell just might flourish under Bobby. (go ahead Robert - highlight that comment and have at it…..your welcome for the set-up).

vic

While we’re at it, let’s call John Rocker for bullben help. Sorry, had to.

JD…..how about NO

Glavine……Maybe for sentimental/history value. Not to mention he’s better than any option we have after Smoltz and James. (assuming Hampton and Hudson aren’t battling each other for Cy Young votes)

Sheffield……As Robert might put it: “Sorry, folks…there’s only room for one Jacka$$ in this clubhouse”

Maddux……Interesting if he’d be willing to play for about 2 million. Anything above that isn’t worth the risk. But I be reuniting him with Bobby and Leo would do him….what’s that? LEO’S GONE?!?…Oh, never mind then.

As for Glavine, I say we do what the Braves did for Niekro in 1987. After letting him pitch the last few years of his career in the AL, they brought him back on the last day of the season in which he played. (sentimental final start in ATL). Yeah, that worked out well for him. Don’t remember the exact numbers, but he lasted 2 or 3 innings gave up about a dozen walks (damn knuckleball!) and gave up just about as many runs. Not pleasant for Phil, or anybody watching that day. But neat none the less.

DOB, I’m surprised that you guys (AJC website) haven’t put a “block” on how many key strokes I can put towards one post. Sorry, looks like if I keep this up, you might have to start a new blog around 6:00 AM.

By nathan

November 10, 2006 12:41 AM | Link to this

gotigers72

had probably never hit leadoff in his life.

Maybe you forgot that during Giles’ rookie year, shortly after his call up, when Furcal seperated his shoulder (or broke his collarbone - I don’t remember the injury - but I do remembe it was in Boston during interleague play), Giles assumed the leadoff duties after that. And didn’t do that bad, if I recall, he didn’t do that bad. But I’m sure he was just “amped” be called up to the show, and did EVERYTHING he could to stay up with the big club.

By vic

November 10, 2006 12:41 AM | Link to this

GLAVINE WOULD BE A SOLID PICKUP..IT HURTS THE METS AND HELPS US. HE JUST FILED FREEAGENCY HE IS INTRESTED IN THE BRAVES

By mariner

November 10, 2006 12:48 AM | Link to this

There should be a huge market for JD. Red Sox, Cubs, Mariners all have a need for a center fielder of his ability and all have the money to pay for him. With only Soriano, Lee, and Aramis Ramirez as the big free agent bats he’ll get plenty of offers at more than 11 mil per year.

By Scalp 'em Braves

November 10, 2006 12:51 AM | Link to this

Craig Counsel - this guy killed us as a Marlin and a D-back. If we can keep him from kiling us again, I say let’s put him on the roster.

Mad Dog - bring him back. He was the franchise (at least during the regular season - Smoltz was our post season ace0 for his last year. I like the guy, and he will be good for 10 - 15 wins. We deserve for him to go out as an “A” on his cap, wait 5 years, and see him go into the HOF in a Braves cap.

Brent - I agree with on on Giles. He is a throw back. Besides, who else is going to slam a shaving cream filled pie plate into the face of the “Hero of the Night” being interviewed on the post game show from the field?

By Stinky

November 10, 2006 02:34 AM | Link to this

Mariner, Do you really think Drew is worth 11 mil + / season? I’m thinking he’s screwed himself six ways to Sunday. He’s not known as a good clubhouse guy. He’s injury-prone. No one likes his agent. Fans, especially Boston’s, would eat him alive at the first hangnail. He’s an old 31. He’s only burned bridges everywhere he’s went.

I think he’s been eating Boras’s crap for so long that he likes the taste.

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 08:13 AM | Link to this

Stinky,

At this point I question Drew’s desire to be a baseball player. It seems like it’s just something he’s really great at, but does he love the job? Maybe playing close to home or playing with his brother would help him to focus and enjoy the game more. But, I’m just speculating. It’s hard to know what motivates him or the reason he’s done the things he has.

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 08:25 AM | Link to this

It’s hard to know what Drew is thinking. I mean, this all has to be because he doesn’t like LA and wants to either play with his brother or play closer to home. I can’t imagine he thinks any team is going to pay him more money when he opted out of a lucrative, long-term contract and refused to sign with the team that originally drafted him. Has to be something else motivating this. But then again Boras is his agent, so maybe they think they can sucker a team into giving Drew a Soriano-type contract. Who knows? JD Drew is certainly an enigma.

By Lew

November 10, 2006 08:49 AM | Link to this

What do you call Sheff, Drew and Lonnie Smith? The All Star A*******h@le outfield?

By Jeff

November 10, 2006 08:54 AM | Link to this

I don’t know, maybe I’m one of the last guys to believe that part of Giles’ slide was that he was forced into the leadoff slot after Furcal departed. Hitters do see different pitches depending on where they are in the order, who’s on base and who hits behind them. Didn’t Giles’ numbers improve in the 2nd half when he was moved out of leadoff? And he might of just had an off-season. It happens.

I think Giles will rebound. Linebrink is a good setup man, but I think Giles should bring more. Hope management can get more in a deal with the Padres than one setup guy.

By Voice of Reason

November 10, 2006 08:57 AM | Link to this

Let’s see… You’re gonna give me $3.3Mil, gauranteed, and all I have to do is play a game for the next three years. And, oh yeah, I have to live in the LA area and it’s weather for three years… All I have to do is say, “OK.” Man, that’s a tough one…

By Lew

November 10, 2006 09:01 AM | Link to this

Jeff-I think you nailed it straight up. When Giles was batting behind Furcal, he saw lots of fast balls in the strike zone. The pitchers were afraid of Furcal’s speed. Also, at the beginning of the season, Giles had an injured hand, but overcame his slow start and actually began hitting well before his move to number 2. You also have to figure the situation with his newborn daughter in Spring Training did a job on his head. I know from personal experience what a 2 month premature child can do your head. It was a factor, I’m certain.

By KC

November 10, 2006 09:01 AM | Link to this

Lew, what do you have against Drew and Lonnie Smith?

By Robert

November 10, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this

“A new regime brings renewed vigor and excitement with expectations down the road.”

The only part of the regime that got changed involved getting rid of the one true genius - Leo Mazzone

No offense to Roger McDowell - He isnt a BAD pitching coach, but he isnt anywhere near Mazzone’s league.

Beside that, it’s just different troops being mishandled by the same uninspired and inept field general

By KC

November 10, 2006 09:07 AM | Link to this

Jeff, agreed. Giles picked it up a bit in the 2nd half the more he adjusted to the leadoff role, and he tore it up for the brief period of time they had him hitting 2nd.

By Voice of Reason

November 10, 2006 09:08 AM | Link to this

Of, course, that should have read $33Mil… Kinda kills the timing, don’t it…

By Lew

November 10, 2006 09:11 AM | Link to this

KC-Drew is, was, and forever shall be a poster child for what is wrong with spoiled, arrogant, over-indulged athletes. He’s a prima donna-never satisfied and extraordinarily self absorbed. As far as Lonnie-Haven’t you been paying attention to him in the news? That and the boneheaded play in 91. Sorry, Dude-Nothing much to reccomend either one for any awards as players or as humans.

By Carroll

November 10, 2006 09:11 AM | Link to this

DOB: don’t know what you’re smokin but if we have a chance to get Linebrink (the best setup man in all of baseball, period) for a little midget who’s never gotten a clutch hit in his life, you do it without thinking about it! Especially since we’re gonna lose Baez, and who knows if Wickman can repeat. Also, Linebrink’s save numbers may not be great but he’s never been “the closer.” Look at Mark Wohlers…he wasn’t that good until the day that Bobby handed him the ball and said, come hell or high water, you are the closer….the rest is history.

By GM Wannabe

November 10, 2006 09:14 AM | Link to this

With JD Drew bcoming a free agent, does this open the door for a deal sending AJ to the Dodgers? So.Cal is warm weather, both are Boras clients and the Dodgers could really use Andruw. The Braves could get Matt Kemp and either Broxton or Billingsly in return. Also, I read on MLB.com that Glavine has filed and that his family wants a return to Atlanta. What makes him so certain that JS is going to bring him back? They must have talked because anyone would’ve accepted the 2 years and 25million the Mets presumably offered. If Glavine is signed I believe Hudson’s days are over in Atlanta.

By VaBravesfan

November 10, 2006 09:35 AM | Link to this

Anybody notice Giles “power” numbers went down about the time the serious steroid testing began. Just a thought.

By mariner

November 10, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this

Stinky, yes unfortunately, I think someone will give Drew 11+ million a year. He played in 146 games this year and had a pretty good stat line, .280 avg, 100 rbi, .393 OBP.

Carroll, I like Giles a lot as a player. He brings a lot to the team, but I agree with you about Linebrink. That deal would be good. Folks say we should get more for Giles, but a proven solid 8th inning pitcher in an off-season where we’re looking for pitching, seems like a good deal.

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 09:41 AM | Link to this

Lew and Jeff,

I think Giles struggles had more to do with injury than anything else. I don’t think he was 100 percent all season. I don’t doubt he was uncomfortable in the leadoff spot and got different pitches, but I think his sub par season had to do more with injury. Most of his numbers were okay except for his power.

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 09:49 AM | Link to this

Carroll,

I don’t care if Linebrink is the best set-up man in baseball (he’s not), he’s still only worth 3 outs a game. Giles was worth about half a run a game just on offense last season—an off season for him (74.2 Runs Created in 141 games).

By Daybed Wagmoe

November 10, 2006 10:02 AM | Link to this

DOB,

so, with the new collective bargaining agreement, will teams’ payrolls increase? forgive my ignorance/stupid question, i just haven’t found out how that thing works. it seems that the payrolls would have to increase in order for the players to get all of this money, supposedly.

anyway, questions about the padres: if they don’t do the linebrink deal, then who would they offer in exchange for giles, or someone else for that matter? i’m sure this is not a possibility of happening, but what would it take to get jake peavy from SD? finally, do you have any ideas of where dave roberts will go this offseason? any chance he comes to ATL?

thanks DOB. i was very disappointed to walk up to the 40 watt in athens last night and see that the twilight singers show was cancelled. they’re really good and i was really hyped up for it.

By mariner

November 10, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this

Shaun, I don’t think the trade has to bring equal value to be a good one for the Braves. We need a guy for the 8th inning. We found out last year that there aren’t a lot of those guys available. We have options at 2B, but I agree none that are as good as Giles.

By Voice of Reason

November 10, 2006 10:04 AM | Link to this

I, too, went through the “post Glavine exodus” resentment; I cheered every time the Bravos thumped him while wearing that ugly blue and orange. But time has changed that and I found myself rooting for somebody whom I believe is a pretty decent guy and still a talented pitcher. I think there are 3 very good reasons for Glav to return, and for JS to want him back for 2007:

1.) I believe that if he gave up the rumored 2yrs./$25M to return to ATL for 1 year, got his 300th in the A and rode off into the sunset, he’d cement hisself as one of the alltime Braves’ greats. He’d also go a long way toward repairing whatever residual harsh feelings remain amongst the ATL faithtful towards his defection.

2.) Don’t discount the Braves’ recent drop in attendence. Bringing home a former hero, coming along for the ride toward 300, and having a future HOF’er finish his career back where it started might give a boost to a sagging attendence.

3.) Let’s not forget, also, that he could be a tremendous teacher to another young southpaw in Chuck James. Couldn’t ChuckyJ, or even HoRa if he’s still here, really benefit from Glav?

All that said, as GM Wannabe said, it probably couldn’t happen without Huddy’s departure. I’m not so sure that might not be the best fringe benefit…

By Paul

November 10, 2006 10:10 AM | Link to this

Congrats to my Alma Mata beating Louisville last night. To think that New Jersey was the center of the college football world last night. (even the Empire State Building was red last night) The biggest game since Princeton in 1869. Now, if only Rutgers can go down to West Virginia and beat the Mountaineers. (it wont be easy thats for sure) As for Sheff the way he ripped into Torre, Cashman, Jeter, and Abreu there is no way I would want him on my team. I know how everyone says that he is a good guy in the clubhouse, but how many times is he going to put his foot in his mouth? I’m sure he’s looking for a three year 40 million dollar deal. Something the braves could never afford.

By Voice of Reason

November 10, 2006 10:13 AM | Link to this

Giles is a 5th year arbitration guy slated to make $5.5M+ in 2007 with a year to go before he walks. Unless he’s Craig Biggio or Rhine Sandberg, he’s simply not cost effective, especially on a team with a glut of middle infielders in their system and with serious needs elsewhere. The debate over whether 2006 was an anomoly or not is really moot. Plain and simple, he’s expendable, he has value, and the team has pressing needs elsewhere. I like him, too, but I’d rather see his value parlayed into strengthening other weaknesses. It’s all about the W’s…

By GM Wannabe

November 10, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this

To VABRAVESFAN: I too thought the same thing about Giles power numbers. It’s kind of funny how his brothers #’s have gone down as well

By nathan

November 10, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this

Lew

Jeff-I think you nailed it straight up. When Giles was batting behind Furcal, he saw lots of fast balls in the strike zone.

Lew, I’m not picking on you specifically, because many people have stated this “excuse” over the last month or so. You just happen to be the one who I copied and pasted.

On to my point.

So by saying this about Giles, (that he can’t succeed without a speed guy in front of him in the order, because he won’t see a ton of fastballs), you are all basically making a strange argument without even realizing it. By saying what you are saying, you are essentially pointing out that over the course of 3 months (however long he was in the leadoff spot), he didn’t do ANYTHING to adjust to facing more breaking balls. So we want to LOCK DOWN the 2B job with Giles and move him lower in the order into an RBI position on this team (that basically has ZERO speed - so he’ll NEVER see a lot of fastballs), when he apparently isn’t capable of producing if he’s not “handed” a fastball over the plate. Kinda sounds like Francoeur doesn’t it. And most of you (again - not directing this right at you Lew), trashed Francoeur for swinging at everything.

I am not accusing Giles of not being able to handle a curveball (Are you telling me Jesus Christ can’t hit a curveball?), you guys are, by ussing the “no Furcal” as an excuse for his down season. But then again, Braves players NOT making adjustments, whether it’s mid-game or midseason, hasn’t been their forte’ under TP, has it?

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this

mariner,

I say why trade Giles, who is likely to be one of the best 2B in the game, for less than he’s worth? Unless the Braves can get a player worth close to as many runs created/prevented or one of the top 30 or so prospects in the game, I don’t think they should trade him.

Trading Giles for Linebrink straight up is going to cost the Braves in the run differential department, which translates into less wins.

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

Voice of Reason,

Giles still has 2007 left on his contract. If healthy, he will be one of the best 2B in the game. Why trade him for a lot less than he’s worth (in terms of production)? I agree, trade him but only if it helps the Braves win just as many games or only if they get a top prospect who is likely to become a star (i.e., one of the best players at his position). I doubt they can get that for Giles mostly because of his contract situation.

By nathan

November 10, 2006 10:33 AM | Link to this

Robert

The only part of the regime that got changed involved getting rid of the one true genius - Leo Mazzone

Listen, I’m not Knocking Leo, (the same way you’re not knocking Roger), But come on man. Baltimore’s ERA actually Went UP, last year. He didn’t appear to fix NOTHING their. And they added Kris Benson, who had a pretty good season. So essentially the rest of the staff REALLY SLIPPED. I’m sure losing BJ Ryan altered the numbers a little bit. But I’m referring more to the starters.

Like I said at the beginning of this post. Leo is a great pitching coach, maybe (probably) one of the Greatest ever. But he couldn’t fix Dan Kolb, He couldn’ fix Chris Rietsma, he SURELY didn’t improve Tim Hudson, Odalis Perex, Jason Marquis, Millwood, Wohlers, the list could go on. Yes I realize that he did “fix” guys like, Wright, Burkett, Hammond, etc…

But I don’t think you can compare Pitching coaches and or managers against eachother unless they coach exactly the same ROSTER. Plus I don’t think you can relate every players success/failures to the coach. If you did that, then yes, you could say “man, Jorge Sosa thrived under Leo, and Sucked under Roger, therefore, Roger must suck. Right?”

But on the other hand, then you’d have to say “man, Chuck James came up here and tore it up. That Roger McDowell is one helluva pitching coach.”

I don’t know where the middle ground is here. Or how you TRULEY determine a pitching coaches value, other than TOTAL team ERA. But if one or two pitchers (in the braves case…many) have entered or exited the roster, how do you factor that in?

I think its just time to realize that if my Grandma Sharon was the pitching coach of the Atlanta Braves when Maddux, Glavine, Avery, Smoltz, etc…. were in their prime. There’s a chance people would be talking about her being a HOF pitching coach as well.

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 10:34 AM | Link to this

GM Wannabe and VABRAVESFAN,

I guess steriods are always a possibility and I wouldn’t be surprised by any baseball player using steriods, but MGiles was injured all season and BGiles is 35. I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because there are other reasonable explanations. But who knows?

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 10:39 AM | Link to this

nathan,

Well, the Braves scored the 2nd most runs in the NL this season. I would love to see what they could do if making adjustments was their forte.

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 10:41 AM | Link to this

nathan, Lew, etc.,

Again, injury, injury, injury—It’s the most likely reason (excuse?) for Giles’s down year.

By roan st

November 10, 2006 10:46 AM | Link to this

The only problem I have with giles is the fact that he has trouble staying healthy. I forgive him for his lackluster 2006 offensive numbers? WHY? Because he is not a freakin leadoff hitter! The guy is a solid #2 hitter and if the braves try to force him to leadoff again then I say go ahead and trade him because he want be productive in that role. Please don’t try to force a square peg into a round hole. We better find a true leadoff man this offseason or our offense will suffer because of it.

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 10:46 AM | Link to this

nathan and Robert,

Nathan, you are right, if Mazzone’s a miracle worker, why hasn’t he turned Baltimore’s pitching around? And why were there a couple of seasons where the Braves’ runs allowed increased under Mazzone?

Mazzone’s obviously a great pitching coach and I think should be in the Hall of Fame one day, but he’s only worth so much. He doubt he would have done much with the Braves’ staff of ‘06.

By nathan

November 10, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this

*THIS GOES TO EVERYONE ON THESE BOARDS

I can’t believe that after all of the posts, all of the story’s DOB has done outlining the Braves payroll, all of the knowledge of GOOD, YOUNG, talented middle infielders in this organization, that you guys STILL DON’T GET THE FACT THAT, THAT IT’S NOT ABOUT GILES ABILITIES!!!!!! It’s about the BRAVES PAYROLL. Wake up PEOPLE!

Is Giles a good (even great) 2B? Yes

Could the Braves make use of him? Absolutely

Is he a fan favorite? Yes

Is he one of Bobby’s favorites? Yes

If money wasn’t an issue, would we be having this conversation? Most definately not. (not this year any how)

I mean, come on people. Greg Olson was a “fan favorite” too. He was a GOOD catcher. Called a good game, came up with some clutch hits. Not to mention he seemed like a pretty good leader in the clubhouse. Should the Braves have left Javy Lopez in the minors, so they could keep this “fan favorite” around? I think not.

If David Justice can be traded, two years removed from getting the BIGGEST HIT in Atlanta Braves history. Then Marcus Giles is tradeable. Don’t give me the Giles is more important than Justice routine, either. They’re VERY similar to eachother. Clutch, good defensively, injury prone, they both hustle, and both had PLENTY OF PASSION.

This is a business. JS RUNS this business and is expected to make the product on the field BETTER. This isn’t a family. It’s not like JS is kicking one of his “son’s” out on the street after he stole 5 dollars off his dresser. HE’S TRYING TO CONSTRUCT A WINNING TEAM. Not coddle one guy. (speaking of JS, son……hmmmmmmm, coincidence?)

FOR THE LAST TIME! If you guys as fans, want to WIN next year. JS may have NO CHOICE but to trade Giles for “payroll flexibility”. Otherwise, if you guys LIKED how last year turned out. Start calling JS, and let him know that you’d rather have a fan favorite, talented 2B (who can’t hit leadoff) on the team. And that our bullpen is “FINE” and you think it will turn around and take care of itself.

I’m sure as Giles was knocking in runs last year, to give us leads the bullpen couldn’t hold (or maybe Giles was knocking in runs, trying to dig us out of the 4-0 hole we were in after the 2nd inning EVERY time Davies or Hudson pitched), you all were going: MAN ALIVE, I sure am glad we’ve got Marcus Giles. There’s NO WAY we could be “this good” without him.

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

nathan,

Don’t mean to pick on you, but it’s annoying when people say Schuerholz needs to do this and that to improve the offense. The offense was great last season, you could make an argument that it was the best in the league. Every regular is likely to get better or stay the same for ‘07. I understand that some trades may happen, but why try to make sweeping changes to one of the best offenses in the league? Why overspend or give up quality young talent to improve something that doesn’t need improving (trading Salty for Crawford)?

By Voice of Reason

November 10, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this

Shaun: Yes, Giles still has 2007 on his contract, but at a 5th year of arb that will net him at least $5M and maybe more. For the Braves, who already have $60M of their $80M budget tied up, that extra $5M is a big deal. To some other team with middle infield needs, a veteran guy like Giles is worth every bit of that - especially, as DOB inferred, if the new team can sign him to a multi-year deal in the process. To the Braves, as I previously said, who have other options at 2B, and who have more urgent needs elsewhere, that $5M could be used much more effectively.

By morris

November 10, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this

Nathan, I always tend to think that leo was a little overated. He had smoltz, glavine, and avery all in their primes. Then John goes out and signs the premier pitching free agent in all of baseball in greg maddux. How could anybody look bad with that staff? The braves most glaring weakness during those years was the inabilty to develop a dominant closer. But you never hear LEO get criticized for the braves shortcomings in that department. The 1996 world series was lost because of relief pitching. If our relievers had not blown game 3 we would have been up 3-0 in that series and would have won the world championship. If leo deserves all the credit for the starters during that time does he not shoulder the blame for our pathetic relievers?

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

roan st,

Also, Giles was in the leadoff spot for much of ‘06 and the Braves scored the 2nd most runs in the NL. How would the offense suffer from that again? No player is due for a big decline, so tell us how they are going to score a lot less runs in ‘07 than ‘06?

By nathan

November 10, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this

Shaun

I understand that some trades may happen, but why try to make sweeping changes to one of the best offenses in the league? Why overspend or give up quality young talent to improve something that doesn’t need improving (trading Salty for Crawford)?

I HAVE NEVER ONCE SAID TO MAKE TRADES TO IMPROVE THE OFFENSE

I agree with you the offense was fine. Other than leadoff spot. Not sure how to solve that problem.

What wasn’t PERFECT or near the top of the league, was our pitching staff. I’m saying trade somthing we have a LOT of (good offensive players) for something we don’t. (pitchers that get people out - without giving up 10 runs inbetween outs)

NEVER once have I said on these blogs that our offense is in need of fixing!

Every post that I’ve ever made saying “trade Giles” has been to get pitching in return, or to clear up payroll to afford to aquire more pitching (via trades and or free agency). Not once did I say “Giles isn’t any good anymore, we need to upgrade at 2B”, Not even close. I agree our offense was good last year. Even without Giles it can be GREAT this year. Chipper “might” be back healthy, if Andruw isn’t traded, Francoeur, LaRoche and McCann are all one year older (and more experienced). Mark it down. We’ll hit more HR’s next year, with or without Marcus Giles.

GET SOME DAMN PITCHING!!!!!

By sc brave

November 10, 2006 11:11 AM | Link to this

just read the news about jd drews filing for free agency. he is an absolute baseball prostitute! cant blame him, the system created all this disloyalty. to me , everything that is wrong with the sport is personified in drew.

By Lew

November 10, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

I swear you people don’t bother reading an entire post. Nathan-If you don’t think that batting behind Furcal made Giles the beneficiary of a lot of good pitches to hit then you don’t really see what you are watching. It isn’t aboput not being able to hit a curveball. It’s about having hittable pitches in an at bat. With Furcal on base, a pitcher is less likely to throw a curveball to Giles. It’s common sense. If you read further in my post, you’ll notice Shaun, that I mentioned his hand injury AND the fact that he pulled himself out of his early slump well before he moved to number 2. Also, if you will both notice, I mentioned that his daughter’s premature birth had much to do with his early season struggles. Read the whole thing. That being said, I like Giles. I always have and would love for him to remain a Brave. I think he is the best 2nd baseman defensively in the NL and I do think last year was abberational. However, if we are going to improve the pitching staff, his salary AND that of Horacio Ramirez will be necessary, not to mention whoever we can get in return.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 10, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this

who will manage the braves if robert has his way? there is cathy cox, who failed in her bid for governor. there is kathy cox who was re-elected as state school superintendent. of course, there is ann cox chambers of cox enterprises. then, there is wally cox. who among them will take over for bobby cox? this journalist poses the question.

By Lew

November 10, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this

Oh and VaBravesFan-You might want to rethink the steroid deal with Marcus. His power production fell off after he broke his collarbone in the collision with Andruw. His power stroke has never been the same since. Don’t go looking to dig up dirt when there are other logical reasons.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this

“I think its just time to realize that if my Grandma Sharon was the pitching coach of the Atlanta Braves when Maddux, Glavine, Avery, Smoltz, etc…. were in their prime. There’s a chance people would be talking about her being a HOF pitching coach as well.”

And if your grandma Sharon had been manager during that time, the Braves would have three or four WS rings

I find it curious that when Leo leaves and things get worse, then the arguement is it wasnt the same roster, but when it comes to Cox, he made everything better when he came on board, even tho it wasnt the same roster

Y’all badmouth or try to downplay the achievements of just about every Brave who ever left, from Lonnie Smith to Sheffield to Glavine to Mazzone

If we’re gonna use the “same roster” arguement - then the only guy we can really do it with is Cox vs Russ Nixon in 1990 - Nixon’s Braves stand a game ahead of Cox’s for that season

Of course now that the roster arguement shows something opposite of what yall like, it will no longer be valid in this case

Mazzone was here for how many years? And we went to the plaoffs for how many years? and then he left and did we go to the playoffs?

The arguement about whether just making the playoffs really means that much aside, the REASON would appear to be much more Mazzone than Dipstick

By the way, several O’s pitchers were involved in the World Baseball Classic and therefore didnt get a whole spring with camp Leo - Give him time

We saw what happened when Leo left. Now let’s do the experiment and see what happens when Cox leaves

By Alan

November 10, 2006 11:29 AM | Link to this

Please, folks, get over Giles already. He’s all but gone. And it’s not just about the money, although that’s the biggest issue. In point of fact, his offense has fallen off each of the past 3 years, so he should take a pay-cut in ‘07, but of course that’s not the way it works any more. And because he’s arbitration-eligible, he’ll get a pay raise to well over $5 million, which is the main reason he’ll be traded. If you go back to the beginning of DOB’s post, he’s saying “not so fast” to Giles going to San Diego - not that he won’t be traded. DOB still says Giles likely will be traded, and I agree. He and Ho-Ram are the most tradeable Braves - kiss them good-bye. How about trading both of them to the Orioles for Brian Roberts and a pitching prospect? That’ll solve 2B and leadoff. Anyway, this weekend should be fun because that’s when free agents can sign with other teams. BTW, there’s no way big-ticket guys like Drew and Sheffield are going to return to ATL, so get over that, too. On the other hand, I do see the possibility of Glavine returning, particularly if Hudson is traded, and I’m thinking that could happen, too. This “hot stove” stuff is fun - put some more wood on the fire!

By GM Wannabe

November 10, 2006 11:34 AM | Link to this

Voice of Reason: you are absolutely correct. Nobody has really said that 2B needs to be upgraded except for the fact that a true leadoff hitter would fit nicely there. Giles is the most tradable player on the roster who would bring back a nice return and the extra money could be used to either solidify the rotation,get a true setup guy or help with acquiring a leadoff hitter.

By Lew

November 10, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this

Esteemed Journalist Jimmy-I think Robert would prefer Wally Cox, who is already dead. His ashes were appropriated by his friend Marlon Brando. Maybe Robert could make a deal to purchase Wally Cox’s ashes from Brando’s estate. Maybe Robert could exile Bobby Cox to Marlon Brando’s island. This would, in all likelihood, make Robert a happy person. Happy, but hardly well adjusted.

By Rosalynn

November 10, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

Jimma and I would like to see that nice Democrat Cathy Cox take over for Bobba. She is very sweet and she has good personal hygiene and could be a role model in the dugout where all the scratchin and fartin and pickin goes on. Jimma and I sit close to the dugout and sometimes Bobby Cox gets to diggin and Jimma will send a Secret Service man ovah to Bobba and ask that Bobba put his hands in his pockets. Of course, this can confuse players on the field who are lookin to Bobba for a sign, With Cathy Cox in the dugout there will be no need for pickin and scratchin. Of course, Jimma would also like to have Ann Cox Chambers in the dugout. Ann has been very, very generous to Jimma in campaigns past. She even threw a party for that nice boy Al Goah. Al threw out the first pitch one night and Jimma knew he could never be leader of the free world. Al bounced the ball up to that young catcha! Blame it on global wahmin. Well, Jimma is ready now to go downtown to the verteran’s day parade. Did I mention that Jimma has a submarine named aftah him? It is the USS Jimma Carter. It carries no weapons. Jimma thinks Bobba should stay but if Bobba has to go, Jimma would favor one of the ladies mentioned above. Someone may maention Tricia Nixon Cox for this job but Jimma would never, never approve of that! Maybe Bobba will hang around for a few moah seasons.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

“The 1996 world series was lost because of relief pitching. If our relievers had not blown game 3 we would have been up 3-0 in that series and would have won the world championship”

Not quite. That series was lost because of incorrect USE of the relievers. Wohlers was in there when he shouldnt have been. That was Cox’s doing, not Mazzone’s

Mazzone helps the guys become better pitchers. He didnt determine when they went into the game. Cox did that

By David O'Brien

November 10, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this

Carroll, don’t know what you’re smoking, either, but when did Giles’ stature (quite a clever remark there, calling him a “little midget”) have anything to do with his ability to do the job? I’m not among those who believe he must be kept (contrary, his contract status and the team’s depth at middle infield, etc., make him a logical if unfortunate choice to be dealt), but I’d suggest that most people considered Giles one of the top-five overall second baseman in the majors over the past 3-4 years, last season notwithstanding.

Haven’t heard many others call Linebrink the absolute best setup man in baseball over that same span, but let’s say he’s roughly in same top-5 grouping at his position as Giles. So a setup man is more valuable, in your opinion, than a strong all-around second baseman? Humm…

By Voice of Reason

November 10, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

I posted this late last night, but I think it bers repeating. BTW - I got this from a Cincy sports talk station:

The hot rumor in Cincinatti is that the Reds would like to acquire Giles from ATL to play 2B, allowing them to move Brandon Phillips to SS, where they desperately lacked last year. Also, there are hints there that Adam Dunn might be available… Maybe a match can be found.

I wouldn’t mind seeing big Dunn in LF next year, batting 5th behind AJ. Think Andruw might see a few more pitches over the plate?

By David O'Brien

November 10, 2006 11:49 AM | Link to this

Carroll, let’s put this another way:

Giles in past four seasons: .294 average, 148 doubles, 55 homers, 240 RBIs, 57 stolen bases, 353 runs, .368 OBP, .824 OPS.

Linebrink in past four seasons: 25-10, 2.74 ERA, 3-for-22 saves, 96 holds, .235 opponents’ average, 271 games (six starts), 289 K in 325-2/3 innings.

What am I smoking?

By David O'Brien

November 10, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

Voice of Reason, why I agree with you that there are good reasons to bring Glavine back, this ain’t one of them:

You wrote: 2.) Don’t discount the Braves’ recent drop in attendence.

First, attendance has been up, albeit slightly, each of the past two seasons, ending the steady erosion of previous six seasons. Secondly, Glav seems to repel as many people as he attracts in Atlanta, and is the only returning former Braves great who gets booed lustily each time his name is announced at Turner Field.

Not saying that’s right or wrong, just that’s the way it is.

By geauxbraves2000

November 10, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

It can longer be about the $$ anymore with these ball players, it has to be about “Ha Ha, I make more money than you do, naa naa naa naa naa”.

As far as Sheff, JD & Glavine, they can either stay where they are or go somewhere else. As far as A Ram with the Cubs, he can take the first bus out of Chicago for all I care.

These $15M salaries are just getting ridiculous. You can’t even get a decent player for $8M anymore.

The soap box is empty now.

Geaux Braves!!

By journalist jimmy smith

November 10, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this

yes, wally cox remains dead. still, if there must be a change …

By Lew

November 10, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

VOR-The Cincinnatti deal sounds interesting. Maybe they will give us Matt Belisle back, too. Such a nice young man. DOB-When you’re finished smoking, you should go listen to Arc Angels. Also, what do you think of the Clapton/JJ Cale collaboration? Have you heard it yet?

By The Grinch

November 10, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

Morning, all. Maybe everyone was watching different games than I was last year, but I can’t think of very many games when Giles was in the 2 spot he didn’t go at least 2 for 5 (often much better). Furcal wasn’t leading off. Shaun will say it doesn’t matter what hitter hits in which hole, but I contend that it does, some much more than others. With Giles, he’s an excellent #2 hitter and a terribly poor #1. Injuries probably played a part, as did fewer fastballs, but not as much as his comfort zone. It’s just deductive reasoning. If his hand hurts one day when he’s leading off and he goes 0 or 1 for 5 (like he had every game prior), and the next day he’s in the 2 and he goes 3 for 5 with three doubles, then the next day he’s back leading off and he hits .125 for the rest of the week, it ain’t because his hand hurts. We watched that all year.

Lonnie Smith is an a$$, and his blunder in the WS was horrible, but many of us forget that he hit a number of key HR’s that helped get us there.

Journalist Jimmy, what about Joe Cox? He’s just sitting on the bench at UGA anyway.

By David O'Brien

November 10, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

As for the Giles-to-Cincy rumor, now that makes a LOT of sense. As I outlined in the original blog up top, he rakes at every NL Central park except Houston (of all places, go figure). I didn’t include his numbers at Cincy, which are actually his best (that place is such a bandbox, numbers don’t even seem fair to compare to other places). Anyway, he’s hit .419 (26-for-62) with three homers, 11 RBIs and a 1.075 OPS in 15 games at Great America Small Park.

Daybed, why’d the Twilight Singers cancel? Just got their new CD (for 40-percent off at going-out-of-biz Tower Records), but haven’t played it yet. Loved their previous few CDs.

As for Dave Roberts, I’ve said all along he makes good sense, could play LF and leadoff most days, but that’s assuming you could get something decent in trade for Diaz (or Langy). Of course, as well as Diaz played last year, don’t know if you want to cut so drastically into his ABs if you keep him.

By GM Wannabe

November 10, 2006 12:01 PM | Link to this

Voice: I would think that the Reds would want Giles but I don’t think they will give up Dunn for Giles. Anyway Dunn, i think makes more mony than Giles. I do think that they would give up Ryan Freel for Giles, which would help with leadoff and payroll.

By Voice of Reason

November 10, 2006 12:02 PM | Link to this

DOB: You got me on the actual attendance numbers, yet, while Glav certainly has been a lightning rod since his defection, if he came back under the circumstances I mentioned, would he not gain back a fair amount of goodwill? I think an awful lot of folks might like to watch him approach and surpass the mystical 300 win mark back in ATL colors. I know I would.

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

nathan,

Well, you have one of the best secondbasemen in the game, why not go ahead and let him play out the final year of his contract if the alternative is trading him for a lot less in runs produced/prevented or a second- or third-tier prospect? I agree, if the Braves can get players that would produce/prevent as many runs as Giles or can get a top 30 prospect, trade him. But if they can’t get that, let him play out the season then try to get someone to give up what you want at the deadline.

You said yourself it’s about W’s. Trading Giles for less than he’s worth in terms of run production/prevention is going to cost the Braves W’s. Just like I’m for trading AJ for three quality players, I’m for trading Giles for quality players, but they have to be worth about the same amount of runs or have the potential to be worth about the same amount of runs.

By David O'Brien

November 10, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this

As for the Giles-to-Cincy rumor, now that makes a LOT of sense. As I outlined in the original blog up top, he rakes at every NL Central park except Houston (of all places, go figure). I didn’t include his numbers at Cincy, which are actually his best (that place is such a bandbox, numbers don’t even seem fair to compare to other places). Anyway, he’s hit .419 (26-for-62) with three homers, 11 RBIs and a 1.075 OPS in 15 games at Great America Small Park.

Daybed, why’d the Twilight Singers cancel? Just got their new CD (for 40-percent off at going-out-of-biz Tower Records), but haven’t played it yet. Loved their previous few CDs.

As for Dave Roberts, I’ve said all along he makes good sense, could play LF and leadoff most days, but that’s assuming you could get something decent in trade for Diaz (or Langy). Of course, as well as Diaz played last year, don’t know if you want to cut so drastically into his ABs if you keep him.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this

“So a setup man is more valuable, in your opinion, than a strong all-around second baseman? Humm…”

Well gee, if we’re gonna say that the bullpen for responsible for last season’s failures and for a lot of Braves’ postseason woes, then ……..

Of course, fixing that problem would take away an excuse, not that another couldnt be concocted (“bobbylogic” would then place the blame at the decreased production at second base)

Chasing your tails - the “solution” to one silly excuse breeds the next one, while the real problem remains firmly in place, shuffling his hooves as he chews his cud in the dugout

By Lew

November 10, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this

For everyone thinking about Carl Crawford-The Rays executive VP just said they would listen if someone wanted to make offers, but they are NOT interested in any more prospects. They want ML ready talent in exchange. I guess they just won’t go for Salty for Crawford. Don’t think Horacio and Davies will get it done, either.

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

Voice, GM,

I don’t know about Freel. He’s very cheap and very versitile. I don’t know why they would trade him for Giles. Granted Giles is more productive, but he’s going to make probably 2-5 times as much.

Again, I don’t see why the Braves need a fix at leadoff. It’s nice to have speed and whatever other tools a “traditional” leadoff hitter has, but they didn’t have it in ‘06 and still scored the 2nd most runs in the league. Yeah, if a leadoff hitter comes cheap and they don’t have to give up much, sure, but why give up great players or a lot of money to fix something that ain’t broke?

By Robert

November 10, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

“but that’s assuming you could get something decent in trade for Diaz (or Langy”

OK DOB, you’re now the GM of another team. What would YOU give for “Langy” (a Coxism I presume)

By Robert

November 10, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this

“Don’t think Horacio and Davies will get it done, either.”

Andruw and Horam for Crawford

By David O'Brien

November 10, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

Frankly, I don’t know what I’d give for Langerhans (everyone on the team calls him Langy; sorry to slip into clubhouse vernacular).

While his defense is simply outstanding in every way, his offensive struggles this past season, especially early on when they needed him and in key situations, would make him a fit for only certain teams, either low-payrolled teams that need either a cheap OF who might develop or, much less likely, a higher-payroll team that can afford to carry him for defense and again, hope he develops at the plate.

Sorry if that’s not a good answer, but I just don’t know what I’d give up for him. Maybe a decent prospect or a pedestrian veteran reliever.

By David O'Brien

November 10, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this

Voice of Reason, I think a lot of Atlantans have been unbending in their anti-Glavine stance ever since his outspoken pro-union stance, and that was solidified when he left for a bigger contract with rival Mets. Yours, pardon the pun, is a voice of reason regarding his possible return. But I don’t know if it’s a majority voice of reason. i doubt it. Lot of Glav-haters out there. Plenty who appreciate what he did and want him back, too. Him and Chipper, both, seem to be love-him-or-hate-him propositions for Atlantans.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

As for JD Drew - It’s his business really (and Boras’) I dont quite understand the hating being thrown their way

Look, Boras wouldnt be able to do jack if GM’s werent gullible to his song and dance.

It goes back to what PT Barnum said - and if you dont get the sucker’s money, someone else will

Personally, I dont think Drew is worth $11 million a year or anywhere near that. If the league were smart, what he did would turn out to be a Jody Reed.

But hey, I hope some team that’s in competition with the Braves pays Drew a whole lot more money than he is worth - leaves them less money to beat us with

If someone is dumb enough to believe Cox is a good manager, it’s realistic to think they’re dumb enough to think JD Drew is worth $11 million a year

By Mike

November 10, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this

I agree with the guys who think that Giles’s 2006 season was a fluke. First off, he was forced into a leadoff spot where he didnt see the same pitches that he did as a number 2 hitter. I also feel that he played hurt most of the year. And lets not forget that he began the season with his young child getting sick after he had already lost a young child a few years back. He also had a major scare when he thought he had something wrong with his own heart. Even with all this this guy left it all out on the line everyday just as he has his entire career. Hes a very good defender and to me hes still one of the elite hitters(he was a career 291 hitter entering the 2006 season). He is my favorite position player but I would take the deal to get Linebrink for the benefit of the Braves. It was in fact the middle relief that cost the braves most of the losses this season and Linebrink could help prevent last years disaster from happening. Im also curious to know what everyone thinks about Lonnie Smith’s recent admission about wanting to kill John Schuerholtz?…I was shocked to say the least

By Robert

November 10, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

DOB - the answer was more than good enough.

Basically you said “I dont know, but not much”

Dont we already have enough presbytarian veteran relievers?

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Interesting to look at Giles’s West Coast stats and Cincy stats, but doesn’t seem like a big enough sample of plate appearances to make and definitive judgments about his performance in those places. And, I would have to look it up, but I think players generally perform better at home than on the road. Actually, I just looked it up and Giles and home and road numbers are fairly close. He has a high SLG at home, but everything else is pretty equal.

Also, a lot of the NL Central parks are extreme hitter’s parks and a lot of the NL West parks (not all but a lot) are pitchers parks.

I think given enough plate appearances, Giles would be as valuable (in terms of win contribution) to the Padres or another NL West team as he has been to the Braves or would be to an NL Central team.

Sample size and park effects can’t be ignored.

By The Grinch

November 10, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this

I, for one, love him. :-)

DOB, I think if my nickname was “Kouz” I’d do everything possible to stay out of the spotlight…

By Head Coach

November 10, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this

Giles or 5.5 million and take a chance on Aybar , Prado , Pena or maybe even Escobar ? The Braves obviously want to try and trade Giles , preferably for two players in return. I don’t want to see him go but with the glut of middle infielders we have its inevitable. What does the blog think of the Braves pursuing Mark Mulder ? He is coming off surgery for a partially torn rotator cuff which was successful. He owns a career record of 103-57 with an ERA of 4.11 , He’s a 6-6 lefty with a mid nineties fastball , curve ball , slider and change up. Before he injured his shoulder in 2006 , he had averaged 200 innings a season for six years straight and averaged a record of 16-7 from 2000 to 2005.

By Bravo Nam

November 10, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

Stinky and Shaun I agree with your 2.34am and 8 something am posts re Drew. The man couldn’t care less about anyone but himself. He’s always been about the money ahead of baseball. Drew is a pitiful figure and not someone you’d wish for in your dugout. Any team that pays that bum more than 11 mill a year needs rocks in their head.

Robert Famous last words from you before you went on your last vacation- saying that you hoped by the time you returned we could talk about something else other than Cox. Obviously when you said “we” you meant everyone other than yourself. Yeah, reckon that just about sums you up little fella.

Falcons fans Finneran, Mathis, Forney, Abraham, Hartwell, Webster, Hall, Norwood blah blah blah Well, it had been a bright start to the season! Anyway, look out for Marlion Jackson- like this guy- if they play him Sunday this guy is going to do some damage- lot to prove- and showed some class in the pre-season.

On the other hand, you’ve then got Mr. Hartwell. Even though he’s signed to 6 years, if you’re the Falcs, you’ve got to release him come years end- you can’t have a player with the talent of Demorrio Williams sitting there backing up the guy who even makes Chrystal Chandelier look durable!

By Robert

November 10, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

I think Glavine is a jerk for his union stance, but hey, we’d be signing him to pitch, not to be buddy buddy with the fans

The strength of the union and the workings of the agents are all the result of the owners’ and GMs’ stupidity and/or lack of backbone

No person has a god given entitlement to be employed as a baseball player. If the owners hadnt colluded, but simply individually decided that they were going to pay “X” and no more, the players could either sign for “X” or go pound sand

It’s where the owners did collude and where they got themselves entangles with local governments regarding stadium rights and such that they forfeited their right to handle their teams the way they ought to be able to handle them - as in, if you dont like what we offer, go find someone else who will pay you to play baseball and sign with them

Agents exploit the least common denominator theory the same way people do when advocating HOF candidates

Player A makes $10 million a year - so anyone who has any subset of stats which compare favorably to player A now assumes a baseline value of $10 million

Player B made the HOF. If I can someone compare my favorite guy favorably to Player B in some light, he also belongs in the HOF

It aint long before Rafael Belliard makes $5 million a year and has a plaque in Cooperstown

By DonCoburleone

November 10, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

The reason JD Drew opted out of LA is because he hated it here. Drew is a very mild mannered religious type who I would guess is very sensitive. People here in LA absolutely hated him. I would say around 80% of all the Dodger fans out here did not like him and Drew knew it. They would ridicule him and mock him when he was in the outfield, and he’d get just hammered in the papers too. I guarantee he ends up with a small market team somewhere for about the same (if not less) money then he was going to get with the Dodgers. Don’t be surprised if he ends up with Detroit.

By DonCoburleone

November 10, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this

I appreciate Glavine for what he did with the Braves (specifically game 6 WS 1995) and he will always be a true Braves great. However, until he retires he is the enemy, going to the GD Mets, what an a-hole.

By Bravo Nam

November 10, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this

Robert You wrote: “If someone is dumb enough to believe Cox is a good manager, it’s realistic to think they’re dumb enough to think JD Drew is worth $11 million a year”

Ah Robert, that’s not narrowing the field very much- that covers every Manager in baseball (and most bloggers on this site as well)!

By DonCoburleone

November 10, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this

Also, to add to my post about JD Drew: What a great surprise this was for the Dodgers. I mean, they couldn’t have scripted a better scenario going into this offseason then having JD Drew willingly opt out of his contract. Look for the Dodgers to be MAJOR players for a bat AND a big name pitcher. I would now be shocked if they didn’t end up with Soriano (Let Nomar go and move Jeff Kent to first). Darn lucky Dodgers…

By btoy

November 10, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

DOB,

went to the My Morning Jacket show last night in N. Charleston. Was amazing. Make sure you make it to the Tabernacle show Sunday.

By Bravo Nam

November 10, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this

DonCoburleone Hear what you’re saying about Drew, but there are plenty of mild-mannered religious types in baseball: it’s the greatest Boras spin story of all time if he wants to make out the LA Dodgers fans are the bad guys in all of this- people don’t like Drew coz he puts money/himself before the team, doesn’t play through injury, and has never lived up to the hype he and Boras have flubbered over everyone.

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this

Bravo Nam and DonCoburleone,

I don’t think Drew’s a self-centered jerk or anything. It just seems like he may not love the game with the passion some other players have. It seems like it may just be a job to him, which is fine. He’s a great player. But, who knows, maybe he does love the game as much as we hope he does.

I’m not doubting he is unhappy in LA. But if you are a “religious, sensitive type” why would you sign with a cut-throat agent who is going to go after big bucks possibly in very large markets where you are going to be harshly criticized?

I guess my only problem is if you sign a contract, you should be willing to play out that contract. I can see if the team wants to trade you, but a commitment is a commitment. If you’re not sure, why sign a long-term deal? Why not a one-year deal? Some players seem to work for agents rather than the other way around.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

“Ah Robert, that’s not narrowing the field very much- that covers every Manager in baseball (and most bloggers on this site as well)!”

Any we wonder why there are SO many mediocre players making so much money?

By Braves20

November 10, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this

A trusted acquaintance pretty high up in the Bravos org says the Giles for Linebrink (maybe plus a prospect) deal probably will happen. This guy is seldom wrong. We’ll see. But please keep Prado off second base. He has the range of my grandmother.

By The Grinch

November 10, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

In fact, I like Glavine so much I’d like to have him stuffed and mounted in my office so I could look at him every day. Have the pupils of his glass eyes replaced with dollar signs. Hmm, I wonder if 30 grand would buy him a trip to the Double Dime with Dick Cheney to make my dream come true…:-)

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this

Interesting to look at Giles’s West Coast stats and Cincy stats, but doesn’t seem like a big enough sample of plate appearances to make and definitive judgments about his performance in those places. And, I would have to look it up, but I think players generally perform better at home than on the road. Actually, I just looked it up and Giles’s home and road numbers are fairly close. He has a higher SLG at home, but everything else is pretty equal.

Also, a lot of the NL Central parks are extreme hitter’s parks and a lot of the NL West parks (not all but a lot) are pitchers parks.

I think given enough plate appearances, Giles would be as valuable (in terms of win contribution) to the Padres or another NL West team as he has been to the Braves or would be to an NL Central team.

Sample size and park effects can’t be ignored.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this

” guess my only problem is if you sign a contract, you should be willing to play out that contract”

or be obligated to repay any salary earned on any contract that the player broke - that would make it simple

You signed for 5 years and $55 million? You want out after two years? No problemo, you owe $22 million back to the ballclub

By Robert

November 10, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this

Cheney’s got a gun

Cheney’s got a gun

What did Dick Cheney dooooooooo

Who’d he put a bullet thruuuuuuuu

I’d pony up to send Cox quail hunting with the VP - any day of the week

If that doesnt pan out, we could always send him boating with Bobby Ojeda

By The Grinch

November 10, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this

Bravo nam, I agree on all points about the Falcons; if it weren’t for the incredible rash of injuries they’d be 7-1 right now. I doubt they make the playoffs at this rate (a rookie at CB and Rossum as the nickel back?), but here’s hoping. Marlion Jackson should help in the red zone, he’s huge and he runs hard. Ed Hartwell’s the biggest bust we’ve had in a long time.

By DonCoburleone

November 10, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

JD Drew is worth $11million per season because that is what somebody is willing to pay. That’s how the free market system works guys…

By DonCoburleone

November 10, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

BravoNam its not a Scott Boras spin story… He been harshly criticized since he signed with the Dodgers by not only the fans, but also by some of the biggest L.A. media guys around. Bill Plashke, Steve Hartman, Simers - they have all trashed him from the moment he put on a Dodger uniform.

I’ve sat out in right field at Chavez Ravine a couple of times since Drew became a Dodger, and believe me, Drew gets it BAD. On alot of nights, he would hear it worse than the right fielder for the opposing team.

The main point I’m trying to make is I think him opting out was at least as much his decision as it was Boras’. Just watch, he may end up with a 5 year deal now, but in per-season dollars, he’ll make no more than $11mil again in this league. HE WANTED OUT OF LA!

By David O'Brien

November 10, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this

Giles for Linebrink PLUS a prospect could definitely happen. How soon just depends on Braves, who might be a little less reluctant to drag it out like they have in the past, given what happened last year when they lost out on so many free agents and a few other players they targeted.

If they want Linebrink bad enough, they’ll pull the trigger well before the winter meetings, maybe even in the next couple weeks, and be done with the Giles matter while reinforcing the bullpen. As long as they got a legit prospect along with Linebrink, I think it’d be a good deal, personally. If Giles was only a second- or third-year arbitration guy or if the Braves had a $100 mill payroll, I’d think differently.

By Gwavine

November 10, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

“Wook faw de union wabel when you are buying that coat, dwess, or bwouse. Wemembah somewhere our union’s sewing, our wages going to feed the kids, and wun the house. We work hard, but who’s compwaining? Thanks to the I.w.G. we’re paying our way! So awways wook for the union wabel, it says we’re abwe to make it in the U.S.A.!”

thank you. thankyouverymuch.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

Scott Boras? SPIN STORY?

Noooooooooooo

He wouldnt do that

And Santa Claus will be coming soon

And Bobby Cox is the best manager ever

By David O'Brien

November 10, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this

DonC, exactly right on what the market will bear….

Robert, yes, “I don’t know, by not much” would have sufficed for my answer.

Look for Sheff, not J.D. Drew, to be the next Tigers RF. Leyland and he got along great in ‘97 when I was covering Marlins, and to this day Sheff raves about Leyland and has never had one word of anything but praise for him.

Leyland has always said give me talent over chemistry or “good guys,” which is what he said when Marlins were pursuing Albert Belle and what he said when they signed Bobby Bonilla (but believe me, anyone who has spent much time with Bonilla knows that guy got a bad rap in NY; teammates and writers and everyone else enjoyed being around him in Pittsburgh, Florida and, from what I’m told, during his brief time in Atlanta, too. That said, he did some stupid things while with the Mets the first time around. Very.)

Where were we? Oh, Sheff to Detroit. I think it’ll happen.

By David O'Brien

November 10, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this

Oh, also, contrary to a report by a Japanese news service yesterday, I’m told that the lefty Igawa will be allowed to go to the majors. The Hanshin team, my person close to the Japanese league tells me, will indeed let him go. That’ll lead to plenty of talk that Braves are favorites to land him, but a person on this end tells me not to make too much of those rumors, which have been fed mainly by fact Braves have “working agreement” with Hanshin and nothing more.

That agreement is in place more for scouting purposes and a liason to Japanese League, more than to give the Braves an edge with players specifically from the Hanshin team. Braves aren’t likely to get into any bidding war for a pitcher most believe to be a No. 3-4 starter, and one that Bobby Valentine said last week was much better a few years ago than he is now.

By Alan

November 10, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

Robert, we’ve all suspected that you have serious “issues” (40-something virgin living in the basement of your widowed mother’s home, or something like that), and your latest post confirms it. Your reference to Bobby Ojeda is totally out of line. You should be ashamed of yourself, but it’s obvious you have no shame at all. No class, either. You really ought to leave and never come back, but that’s not likely to happen, is it? This is your life, Robert. And it’s very, very, very sad.

By David O'Brien

November 10, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

And no, before anyone accuses me of contradicting myself on Igawa, I’m not. I’m just being honest and giving you info I’ve received on him after I wrote a few days ago that Braves were targeting him, or might target him. I’ve since been told it’s less likely.

If they could get him for what amounts to $4-5 mill a year, it’d be worth it, but you just never know because of the posting procedures, the blind bids that teams have to put in just to win negotiating rights to Japanese players.

By Shaun

November 10, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this

DOB,

I agree, Linebrink plus a legit prospect is good. The prospect needs to at least have the potential to be a good everyday player or a middle of the rotation starter.

By rammerjammer

November 10, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this

DOB, what did you mean when you wrote “having two of the, uh, colorful Giles brothers in one clubhouse might be one too many.”

Explain, please?

By Troy

November 10, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this

mlbtraderumors.com is reporting that the Redsox may have won the bid for Matsuzaka for somewhere between $38-$45 million. Is that not insanely stupid?

By DonCoburleone

November 10, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this

The Falcons will NEVER win a championship with Vick as their quarterback…

By Thomas

November 10, 2006 02:52 PM | Link to this

Good Job DOB,

I disagree with you in something though, Marcus is not in a downside, hey he is a great player, he had trouble with his power this year because of his injuries, but I garanted you he would have a great season(if he doesnt get injured). Glavine topic, he is made it clear he wants to be with the braves, although if the braves want to take a shot at him they need to get rid of salary. Trade Horacio Ramirez(3.5million)for Salomon Torres(2.5million) and speedy minor leaguer , and Marcus Giles(5.5million) for Scott Linkenburg(2.5million), and a player to be named. That would free up 4million, not enough for glavine, and we havent resolved our leadoff issue. So trade Langerthans, and Scott Thorman (2million both) for leadoff hitter. Now we have 6million still not enough for glavine, if he accepts that offer for a one year deal, is the only way the Brave would sign him. The other way is to trade Hudson to a team which would eat up all his salary and trade a valuable player. Lets say glavine is a long shot.

By Thomas

November 10, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

Kei Igawa, LHSP—Hanshin Tigers: The Tigers will post Igawa. He has hired American agent Arn Tellem to represent him. The Dodgers, Braves, Mariners, Tigers, Mets and Red Sox have expressed interest. Igawa reportedly prefers to join a west coast team. Last updated: 11:48 PM - Nov 9, 06 by MLB4U.com | Source: Associated Press | Rated: 2.69 out of 5

By Thomas

November 10, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this

Trade between yanks, and San Diego. Peavy for Sheffield.

By David O'Brien

November 10, 2006 03:08 PM | Link to this

“I wrecked the El Camino/it would’ve been DWI

“So I just walked off and left it/laying on its side

“The troopers found it in the morning/they said it’s purely luck I wasn’t killed

“I probably ought to quit my drinking/but I don’t believe I will

“I’m all alone/it’s alright…”

_ Rachel’s Song, by James McMurtry.

By DonCoburleone

November 10, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this

DOB, I’ve always wondered (especially after watching the WBC this past season) why a team with a struggling bullpen doesn’t just go sign a bunch of average to good relievers for a Japanese or Korean team and see how they do. I mean, they couldn’t possibly be worse than calling up guys like Startup, Barry, or Stockman could they???

By Robert

November 10, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

“Your reference to Bobby Ojeda is totally out of line”

Um hello - My comment was obviously tongue-in-cheek

I dont wanna send Cox hunting with Chaney or boating with Ojeda

(bullets and gasoline are both scarce commodities)

Lighten up

By David O'Brien

November 10, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this

Thomas, I just got off the phone with a high-ranking Braves official with initials J.S. _ Schuerholz, not Smoltz _ and he told me Braves aren’t as involved with the Japanese players as some other teams. For John, that amounts to a revealing comment. I don’t think he was posturing; I really don’t think the Braves are big players for Igawa, not as they’ve been portrayed to be.

One other note, I didn’t say Marcus is on the downside. Just said he’s too young for his performance to be in decline, which it was last year for whatever reason. Didn’t say that was the trend of his career. He’s way too young to say that about him. Wouldn’t surprise me whatsoever if he has a big year. But he’s not a leadoff guy, and Braves have a great No. 2 hitter in Renteria.

Now, back to listening to McMurtry (man, the “Where’d You Hide the Body” CD was unbelievably good, released in 1995 to little if any fanfare. Criminally underappreciated, this guy. Amazing songwriter. Everyone should own a few McMurtry CDs. This is the real stuff.)

By Robert

November 10, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this

The Ojeda joke has been around forever

Stuck with a Darren Dreifort, or a Chan Ho Park, or the Knicks roster?

No worries. Send em boating

It’s a J-O-K-E

By Terry Dunlap

November 10, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

Maybe the Braves could go through with this trade. Then, they could after Soriano!! Who we all know, wants to play second base. That would be a bonus for us. Plus, Soriano would be a much happier ball player at second, instead of the outfiled.

By Matthew

November 10, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this

How much will Ted Lily command in the offseason? I see him listed as a FA on the espn page. He made $4 million last year, but would a quality left handed starter like him be possible? He and his manager certainly don’t get along, so perhaps something could be done?

DOB, have you heard any murmurs about our SP needs, and is Lily in the discussion? Thanks for your good work.

Robert, how was vacation?

By nathan

November 10, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this

shaun is it “illegal” to trade a 2B for a pitcher???

How do you measure the difference between what a pitcher “prevents” in reference to runs scored. As a hitter does in producing runs.

Would we have been better off in the 90’s with Barry Bonds vs. Greg Maddux?

There’s really NO WAY TO KNOW.

But what I DO KNOW is this:

We ALLOWED WAAAAAAAAY TOO MANY RUNS LAST YEAR. Can you agree with that or not?

I’ll assume your answer was that you agreed?

Next question.

Did our offense score enough runs for us to win games last year????

Again, I’ll assume you agree.

So why aren’t you willing to see that we need to add pitching? Again, I’ll assume that you DO feel we need to add pitching.

OK….are ya still with me? If JS needs to add pitching (quality pitching - not Mike Remlinger) he will need to spend some money, right? I’ll assume you’re still keepin’ up.

You see we have this “bunch” of players (Chipper, Andruw, Smoltz, Hudson, Hampton), that REALLY put a “monkey wrench” into JS’s budget, which stands at 80 million dollars.

Are ya still with me?

Good.

So at this point we have come to the conclusion that:

1) Are pitching wasn’t good last year. We need some.

2) Our offense WAS good last year, and more than likely will improve (with or without our 2B)

3) Our payroll budget isn’t that of the Yankees. Not to mention that of the 80 million dollar budget 5 of our players take up approximately 50 percent of that. That leaves 40 million for the remaining 20 players on the 25 man roster.

Here’s where it gets a little tricky for some of you.

Class, can anybody tell me the LOGICAL solution that a GM with about 15 minutes of Business School under his belt, would do?

Nope, sorry Lew. Wrong Answer.

Oh, so close Mike. but I’m sorry. Incorrect.

I know you’re gonna be disappointed Shaun, I could see by the gleem in you eye, that you thought you were right. But you too have failed.

Robert, you know better. “Bobby Cox Sux” isn’t even close to the answer to this question.

Anybody else? Buehler, Buehler…..

Well, class. Somebody’s gonna have to stay late today, because it appears that none of you were paying attention.

THE LOGICAL SOLUTION, would be to trade somthing that we have an abundance of for somthing we don’t. Say for instance, MIDDLE INFIELDERS.

WE MAY NEVER REPLACE GILES’ BAT IN THE LINEUP at the 2B position. HE IS ONE OF THE GREATEST 2B in the game today. There I SAID IT! Like I’ve ever said he sucks and we need to get rid of him.

HE IS THE LOGICAL CHOICE TO GO, people. OPEN YOUR EYES.

By nathan

November 10, 2006 03:26 PM | Link to this

You signed for 5 years and $55 million? You want out after two years? No problemo, you owe $22 million back to the ballclub

Can you blame the player, if the TEAM is stupid enough to give him the out?

By Robert

November 10, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this

LOL - Nathan that was GOOD

I’d say that it might make just as much sense to have Andruw be the one who goes - we may not have such a glut of outfielders but then again him going saves more money than Giles leaving

By Lew

November 10, 2006 03:37 PM | Link to this

Nathan-I have no idea what the hell wrong answer you are talking about. If you are referring to my feelings on why Giles may have had a bad year, you might try looking where I say that Marcus and Horacio need to be traded. As far as the Braves’ payroll being top heavy-So What? It is a temporary situation and is not really a factor this season. We will have more than enough money for all of our needs if Giles and Ramirez are traded. With what’s left over from the dead wood leaving and Wicky’s resigning with the Braves and Smoltz $2 million reduction in 07 and Giles and Horacio traded, it should leave about $14 million to play with, plus whoever we get in trade. That’s what needs to be done. Get off my case Nathan. You got no arguement with me and I’m in a pi$$y mood,Dude.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this

“Can you blame the player, if the TEAM is stupid enough to give him the out?”

Heck no.

Hey, if I were the Dodgers I’d be thrilled

My comment actually should have had the qualifier that if the player pulled a TO - signs for long term and then decides he needs more money

By David O'Brien

November 10, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this

Silver Sluggers will be announced later today. I can’t see how McCann doesn’t get it for NL catchers, as we’ve said all along.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this

“Robert, you know better. “Bobby Cox Sux” isn’t even close to the answer to this question.”

Nathan - “Bobby Cox sucks” is, however, the reason that I just cant get really passionate discussing what moves the Braves should or shouldnt make, which players we should do what with and so forth.

Trade Giles, dont trade Giles. Trade Andruw. sign andruw for $8 billion. Get Trevor Hoffman to close. Let Jose Canseco close. It doesnt matter

$8 or $8 million, or $8 billion - best pitching, worst pitching, most runs scored, prettiest hairdos, sexiest wives, whatever -

If they’re good enough to win 160, they’ll win 150,and lose in the playoffs. If they’re good enough to win 19 they’ll win 9.

Cox places a limit on what can be achieved. Once that’s set, WTF cares how low you can go?

By David O'Brien

November 10, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

Soriano will be playing 2B for the Braves when I’m playing LF for the Nats.

By Head Coach

November 10, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

Hell , Mark Mulder is a safer risk than going after Igawa.

By nathan

November 10, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

Lew

The comment wasn’t personal, or based on anything you actually said.

I just scrolled through the posts, and saw that you were “in”. So I used your name. Just trying to “involve” everybody, as to not leave anybody out.

C’mon. It was all a little funny!

Robert

Comparing him to TO is probably more in line. And you are right. The Dodgers have to be THRILLED to rid themselves of him. Drew very well may have another monster season hiding in there somewhere. But I seriously DOUBT that he has 3 in a row. Good luck to the next GM that makes the same mistake the Dodgers did.

By nathan

November 10, 2006 04:00 PM | Link to this

Robert

You know from my past comments (right around the time Cox was putting Reitsma out there everyday), that I too have some pretty harsh (some warranted, some not), of Bobby. So I feel ya, hear ya….whatever cliche’ you want to use. I don’t neccessarily agree with ALL that you say. But I can understand some of the frustration. I just hold out hope that they can put enough talent on the field to win (in the post season) despite or in spite of some of his decision making processes. So for me EVERY year is a NEW year. I stay pretty positive and hopeful, no matter what players we add or subtract. You and one of my best buddies, Brad would get along GREAT. He absolutely despises Bobby Cox and has told me this offseason that he will not watch another Braves game until Bobby is gone. That’s a little harsh for me, but that’s his decision not mine. I love baseball. I love the Atlanta Braves, and I will continue to watch until the day I die. Now that doesn’t mean that I won’t complain, when somthing happens that I don’t like. Does that make me right or wrong? Nope, just my opinion. And that’s what these blogs are for, expressing our opinions, whether they are praises or b*tches. So, keep up the, er…..good work?

DOB

What kind of range and arm do you have? And can you lead off? :)

By MGL

November 10, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this

Sheffield to Detroit for three pitching prospects, added two-year extension.

By Michael

November 10, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this

It would be nice to see Glavine come back. He’d be a great mentor for Chuck James. Ok so he took more money. He also proved to himself and everyone else(eventually) that he could succeed w/out Bobby and Leo. Let go of the hate and welcome the man back! The Braves should take a shot at getting him. Smoltz,Glavine,Hampton,Hudson,James….a lot of lefties but still a nice sounding rotation.(assumming everyone does what they’re supposed to do)

By geauxbraves2000

November 10, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this

Soriano will be playing 2B for the Braves when I’m playing LF for the Nats

Now that is the best news so far this offseason. I’d rather pay DOB $15M than pay Soriano one stinking dollar.

As much as Robert desires BC being the Braves manager next year, that’s how much I desire Soriano as a Brave. Geaux Braves!!

By David O'Brien

November 10, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this

Can’t lead off anymore, but I still have a decent arm. That was always my strong suit, I could always win those long-toss competitions on flag day in grade school.

On a lighter note, McCann won the Silver Slugger, as expected. Only Brave. NL OFs are Beltran, Soriano and Colorado’s Matt Holliday.

By mariner

November 10, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this

Looks like the Yankees did very well in the trade. Too bad. Cashman may have more money to spend than other GMs, but he did real well in the Abreu and Sheffield trades. If Giles or HoRam get dealt, I hope JS does as well.

By nathan

November 10, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this

MGL

Saw it to. I suppose that’s a good move for all. But man, reading story on ESPN, those three guys they gave up sound like studs. If JS could swing a deal like that, instead of giving away our young pitching for the likes of Sheffield and JD Drew, that would be sweet.

I’ll maintain my stance, especially now that the “streak” is over (I was NEVER that concerned with extending the streak as putting the “right” team for the now AND the future on the field), but I, as a Braves fan that’s here for the long haul, would be willing to have next year not be so good (rebuilding if you must) as long as the players that were playing were YOUNG and had a ton of UPSIDE.

As for Sheffield, what’s the over/under on when we see this comment come out of his mouth:

“I hate to bring this up, but these fenses are WAY too deep here in Detroit, my abilities have not declined one bit. These deep alleys are the cause of all my warning track fly balls. Not too mention, I don’t remember Leyland being a racist, but that’s the only logical explanation as to why I’m not in the lineup.”

OK, maybe that’s exaggerating, but I give him until June of 2008, before he starts b*tching.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

“I just hold out hope that they can put enough talent on the field to win (in the post season”

Nathan, what I am about to show you will probably be very sobering

In 1997 the Braves had Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz and Neagle - Smoltz had the highest ERA at 3.02 They had Wohlers Embree, Clontz and Bielecki in a more than adequate bullpen. They had McGriff, the Joneses, Jazy, Klesko, and Kenny Lofton -

They didnt even make the World Series

In 1998, their fourth starter’s ERA was up to 3.55 (Millwood was number 5). McGriff and Lofton were gone, but Galarraga, Chipper, Lopez, and Andruw all had at least 30 dingers 90 rbi and .270 (those were andruw’s the other three were all much better)

They didnt even show UP against the Padres

Nathan - Exactly how much talent (and money) would they NEED to have a shot?

I’ll modify what I’ve said in the past. Gimme $1 billion a year player budget for three years and I’ll build ya a team with a 50/50 shot to win a WS with Cox managing

By The Grinch

November 10, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this

If the numbers on those three prospects the Yankees just got for Sheffield are legit, that looks like more than what we were offered for Andruw. WTF?

Nathan, there’ll be plenty of talent next year to win. Unless JS steps in and says “ENOUGH,” Jordan’ll be back platooning with LaRoche, Reitsy will be pitching the 8th, Giles will be leading off (unless traded, in which case Pratt may be leading off for all we know), etc. Don’t worry, there’ll be plenty of veteran presence. :-)

By nathan

November 10, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this

geauxbraves2000

Sad thing is, IF the Braves had the dollars to sign him. My guess is that he is EXACTLY the guy, Bobby would want. What’s not to like? Total hack and jack. Only one problem. That running game of his, would have to go away. We can’t afford to be having guys picked off trying to steal. That would turn our Pitching, Defense and the 3-Run HR theory into the: Pitching, Defense (lack there of with Soriano), and (2) 2-Run Homers.

That’s WAY too much to ask out of your players. LOL!

Robert

I’d say that it might make just as much sense to have Andruw be the one who goes - we may not have such a glut of outfielders but then again him going saves more money than Giles leaving

I couldn’t agree more. But you are right. Not as much talent in the organization for the outfield spots. Besides, AJ does make a MUCH bigger impact on the outcome of most games than Giles does, IMO. Losing Andruw would be a bigger blow to the offense than losing Giles. But the hidden gem in a deal for Andruw would be that if a team would be given the opportunity (Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Dodgers?) to negotiate a deal with Andruw prior to a trade, we would recieve a HELL of a lot more for Andruw than for Giles, in the way of pitching and Major League ready talent. Possibly enough to offset the loss of Andruw. We might not be the same “kind” of team (power), but it is totally possible to change philosophy and still succeed.

That is where my issue is with Bobby. I HATE the “pitching, defense and the 3-Run Homer” approach that Bobby (and his idol - Earl Weaver) love. But it’s what he does. So for me, as long as Bobby is in the dugout, I’d rather have a roster filled with POWER HIITERS than a roster of speed and defense. Because we all know that Bobby surely isn’t an advocate of using the running game to “put pressure” on the defense. He only steals or allows steals to take place when the whole world knows you are going to steal. I could be way off base, and maybe injuries slowed down some of the “stolen base artists” we have aquired over the years (Lofton, Grissom, Furcal - yes, Furcal. He never came close to the minor league SB total he had. Of course most catchers that can throw out runners are up with the Big Club already, but, the numbers don’t lie.) Hell, even when Otis nixon came back the last time, he was coming off of a 30 somthing SB season. Did Bobby let him run? Not really.

The other reason, that Bobby doesn’t like (allegedly) the running game (hit & runs included), could be due to the fact that the Braves have way too many free swinger that don’t make enough contact. I’m not saying that one should call for a hit and run EVERY time somebody’s on base. But once in a while would be nice.

So in that respect, as long as Cox is “our guy”, JS should build the roster around the power game. Just my opinion.

In reality, our offense is just fine. As long as the pitching gets back on track.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

Just looked at the details of the Sheffield trade. Oh my god

The Tigers are deep at pitching. They give up two minor league relievers (the prospects arent closing in the minors folks) and one guy who has a decent K rate (big deal) - for SHEFFIELD

Say all you want about Sheffield. Who gives a flying FORK what he says? He isnt being paid to think, or for his opinions. He is paid to play. And he does it better than all but a handful of guys in the league

This was an AWESOME deal for Detroit

By Alan

November 10, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this

The Ojeda “joke” is in bad taste (even for you), no matter how long it’s been around. How about this: I’ll lighten up as soon as you lay off Bobby Cox. Everyone knows your feelings about him - why don’t you give it a rest and go play somewhere else? Or go back on vacation with your mommy. Baseball-wise, DOB is 100% right about Soriano. I can play second base better than he can. Again, the Braves will trade Giles and probably Ho-Ram and maybe even Hudson. And very likely a few lower-level prospects. In return, I’d love to see them land a guy like Brian Roberts or sign a FA like Dave Roberts. And if they move enough salary (e.g., Hudson) maybe they’ll sign Glavine. DOB is also right about Giles for Linebrink. Straight-up, that’s a steal for the Padres.

By Head Coach

November 10, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this

The playoffs are a crapshoot and Schuerholz said it first. Thats why he is a GM and we are not.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this

“So for me, as long as Bobby is in the dugout, I’d rather have a roster filled with POWER HIITERS than a roster of speed and defense.”

No arguement there. Speed is wasted on a Cox team. One of zinger quotes many years ago was to the tune of “We dont need any speed or running”

Now nathan, if the team has too many free swingers, then geez, maybe the genius manager should be doing some TEACHING

Earl Weaver is actually a GREAT comparison to Cox - similar philosophy, similar styles (sitting in the dugout stewing about the umps), same signature move (getting ejected), similar underachieving playoff results

Donkeys of a feather

By nathan

November 10, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this

Robert

Come on Man! You know the reason they lost in 1997 was because of Eric Gregg, right? LOL!

You don’t have to “remind” me of any of the rosters they’ve had. They’ve all been loaded (maybe, until recently) with players that put up monster numbers in the regular season (feeding off of the lesser teams for most of those stats - the hitters not the pitchers. Those pitchers were as good as ANYBODY had), but I still don’t feel that those rosters were built to win in the postseason. Why, you may ask?

I’m way more bummed out by the 91 and 92 and even the 93 “choke jobs” if you can call them that. Those teams had heart, character, and “little guys” that new HOW TO HIT, situationally. The weren’t always Hack-n-Jackin’ for the fenses. Not to mention that we haven’t had a 1-2 punch of POWER POST SEASON pitchers that can get the big “K” when neccessary since the early 90’s with Smoltz and Avery. Maddux and Glavine are GREAT PITCHERS. You can’t deny them of that. But for the same reason’s that Maddux says he’ll never throw a no-hitter (too many strikes or around the strike zone too much), that is the same reason that we had to watch bloop hit after bloop hit fall in in close games. Face facts, the other teams that make postseason play are good teams too. Some of those teams had good power hitters and some didn’t. Ever notice how for the most part, Glavine and Maddux didn’t get beat by the likes of Barry Bonds, and all of the other big boppers they faced in crunch time? They handled those guys just fine. It’s the Craig Councell’s, the Dan Gladden’s, the Kirby Pucketts’ (not fair, he’s a HOF’r, but not a SLUGGER), the Jim Leyritz, the Paul O’neill’s, etc, etc, etc…..

Guys that make CONTACT alway have and alway will give those two fits.

To flip it around, how many guys have we had on our rosters that could “make contact” consistantly? Ron Gant, Ryan Klesko, Big Cat, Reggie Sanders, Bret Boone, Andruw, the list could go on and on. In fact two things to consider in the 1995 season. One, our two biggest offensive heros in the postseason (not the world series, but we don’t get there without them) were Luis Polonia and Mike Devereaux. Enough said. Back in 1991, I remember reading that Lemke would’ve been named MVP had the Braves won. Remind you of anybody?…..This years WS MVP: David Eckstein.

But yes. That 97 and the 98 team were LOADED with power. Yippy. Too bad we weren’t facing the Devil Rays in the playoffs or we woulda HAMMERED them to death.

I could be way off base. But I actually believe that last years team (leadoff hitter or not) had the best OFFENSIVE chance to succeed in the playoffs vs. all of the other big time power lineups of yester-years past. Too bad, the pitching wasn’t good enough to get us there or do anything, once we got there, had we.

Just my opinion. Regardless of BC.

By Head Coach

November 10, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this

Traded ? Giles , yes. Horacio , maybe. Hudson , your crazy.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this

“How about this: I’ll lighten up as soon as you lay off Bobby Cox.”

If you dont have a sense of humor, it aint my problem.

“why don’t you give it a rest and go play somewhere else”

Because as much as DOB and I disagree, he allows free speech - and the first step in solving a problem is speaking up to make people aware.

I love the Braves. I want very badly for them to more another (and another and another ) WS title. I am doing what I feel in my heart needs to be done to give them that chance. If 99,999 folks on this blog disagree with me and hate on me for it, fine. If ONE person somewhere somehow sees the light, or takes up the torch, then the work is progressing

Again, I can get into the other discussions and chit chat to some extent, but it al;ways comes back to it doesnt matter

If you have seventeen bullet wounds and will bleed to death in three minutes, it doesnt matter whether we order Papa John’ or Dominos or whether we listen to rock or country.

By Head Coach

November 10, 2006 05:12 PM | Link to this

Right. Cox has a tried and true formula for getting to the playoffs. Great pitching , solid defense and the three run bomb.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 05:15 PM | Link to this

The playoffs become a crapshoot the minute you throw an idiot into the mix

Bobby Cox would turn A-A into a 50/50 race against 2-7 off-suit

By nathan

November 10, 2006 05:16 PM | Link to this

Head Coach

The playoffs are a crapshoot and Schuerholz said it first. Thats why he is a GM and we are not.

I have NEVER like this comment. No matter who it’s coming from. To an EXTENT, it’s true. But if it is the case. The Braves are the all time worst at shooting crap.

By The Grinch

November 10, 2006 05:17 PM | Link to this

Robert, it makes a HUGE difference. If I’m about to die and some a-hole puts on Billy Ray Cyrus when there’s a perfectly good Skynyrd cd next to it, there’ll be an 18th bullet hole.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 05:20 PM | Link to this

Nathan, I’m with you about all the way.

Now answer this. Who is it that has the greatest effect on the overall team philosophy/outlook. Who is the one guy that first and foremost sets the tone

The MANAGER

Your arguement that the teams are built to win might hint more blame on JS. I’d refine the point to say the team doesnt play the right way to win in the postseason. They dont have the right mindset, they dont have the attack philosophy. Power pitching helps but hey if they dink a few off our finesse guys, let’s out smallball them.

The tone is set by the manager. The tone is flawed for the playoffs. Therefore Bobby Cox is flawed. Therefore he must go.

Logic 101

By Thomas

November 10, 2006 05:23 PM | Link to this

If it was for me to decide, i’ll trade Horacio, but not Marcus(make a contract), and sign Matthews(8million) to play left field, and trade Langerthans, and Scott Thorman(2million) to free up salary for a setup guy, and a lefthanded reliever. Trade Hudson(11million) for Carl Pavano(10million mostly paid by the Yankees), and sign Glavine(8million).

By Robert

November 10, 2006 05:25 PM | Link to this

You mentioned only the three steps for the players. There’s also three steps for Cox

1.Pick your nose 2.Chew your cud 3.Get yourself ejected and thus taken out of the equation when it’s really CRUCIAL that the Braves win a game

Being a champion isnt about GETTING to the playoffs.

Outside of Atlanta, you dont get kudos for getting to the playoffs

I was gonna say they dont give awards for making the playoffs, but then I remembered - Manager of the Year (HA!)

By rammerjammer

November 10, 2006 05:26 PM | Link to this

Giles for Ryan Freel works for everyone.

It upgrades leftfield by giving us an excellent fielder with a strong on-base percentage and very good speed. It also strengthens the bench, adding RH hitting Diaz to LF hitting Ward.

And Cincinnati wants to move their second baseman to shortstop, so Giles fits in with their needs.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 05:27 PM | Link to this

You know Grinch, Ive always said ANYBODY but Cox

But Billy Ray Cyrus -

I might need to rethink this

By nathan

November 10, 2006 05:28 PM | Link to this

Head Coach

Right. Cox has a tried and true formula for getting to the playoffs. Great pitching , solid defense and the three run bomb.

The key ingredient of that comment is “getting to the playoffs”.

That same philosophy is what’s doomed us in most of our post season failures.

Hell even Justice’s HR to win game 6 (and the 95 WS), was a BAD mistake pitch. Anybody remember Tony Pena SLAMMING the mask and glove to the ground the second Justice made contact? More often than not HR’s in the post season are on mistake pitches. That could be said of almost EVERY homerun hit during the season. The difference being, most guys that make a lot of mistake pitches, usually don’t play for teams that get to the playoffs. Wohler’s pitch to Leyritz ring a bell?

Let’s ask DOB. He was there, working in Florida in 1997. For whatever reason, I don’t recall. But since I don’t recall, I’ll assume that not that many happened. I’ll just ask the question. DOB, how many HR’s did the big sluggers for the Marlins have in the NLCS against the Braves? It was guys like Councell, Renteria and Conine, that killed us. Not Bonilla, Sheffield and Charles Johnson. If I recall correctly. Not to mention that the only game we dominated in, was the one (game 2) that Alex Fernandez got hammered. Only to find out that he needed surgery and was done for the post season. Nice job guys.

By DonCoburleone

November 10, 2006 05:36 PM | Link to this

Can’t believe Tigers gave up those kind of pitching prospects for Sheffield…

By Robert

November 10, 2006 05:38 PM | Link to this

In 95 the Braves pitching ran the table three times in a row, culminating in a combined 1-hitter by Glavine and Wohlers. And gee-willikers ole Eeyore got hisself a ring

That Series needed no managing. Had Cox been required to maske a decision, we might still be title-less

Also remember the opposing manager wqas Hargrove - not exactly genius personified -

By Haywood Jablome

November 10, 2006 05:38 PM | Link to this

DOB,

I could take or leave Tom Glavine. I think he’s got enough left in the tank to win 15 games for us next season, especially with our offense to bail him out…but his days as a dominating 1 or 2 starter are clearly over. But please give me your two cents on this rumor…Glavine will re-sign with the Mets for 2007 and 2008 because Glavine and his camp feel that Greg Maddux will retire after 2007 and Tom wants to go one more year to avoid being inducted in the same Hall of Fame class as Maddux. He’s gotta be bull-s’ing me , right?!

By nathan

November 10, 2006 05:42 PM | Link to this

Robert

We could go round and round on this all night. LOL! I’m sure after another half hour or so, everybody else will leave.

But no. I don’t really blame JS. After all, he traded Justice and Dye and Grissom (the ONLY consistant postseason HITTER we ever had - yes he was only with us two years - but he showed it again the next year in 97 when he took the Indians to the WS and we watched) for Lofton, Tucker and Lockhart. So JS had the right idea. And for the first month of 97. JS looked like a genius. Lofton was SILLY good, and Tucker was in the (all too often mentioned) number 2 hole with a fast guy on base all day long. So he tore it up in April and May.

Then Lofton got hurt and it was all down hill from there. So, who’s to blame that year? I do remember that Lofton started off the Livian Hernandez game with a lead off triple and got STRANDED at 3rd. Nice job getting the run in guys. (listen to me. B*tching about 1997 like it was last night! LOL!)

But at the same time. Some of these players COULD take matters into their own hands come playoff time. Couldn’t they? What’s Bobby gonna bench them for game 2 if they come up with a big clutch “contact/bloop” hit in game 1 that wins the game? I doubt it.

I do understand that you are saying that by playing for the 3 run homer all year long, creates a mindset that can’t neccessarily be “turned off” come playoff time. But COME ON! These guys have to have watched a couple of World Series game in recent years to see what type of hitters succeed, haven’t they? I mean, it’s not like they’ve actually been playing in WS in recent years and were too involved to notice.

The other side that I want to comment on is this. Sometimes you just have to give the other team credit. Guys like Kevin Brown, he was on a MISSION that year. Nobody was going to (or did) hit him that hard in the postseason. He got us again the next year in San Diego. Congrats Kevin Towers, you must’ve watched the 1997 playoffs.

So unlike you, I’m not going to put ALL of the blame on Bobby. Some, yes. Some on the players? Absolutely (most, IMO). Some on JS. Last year, yeah.

It’s a cycle that can’t seem to be stopped. Well, until last year anyhow. Now, we get to start it all over again. Hopefully, we just get to the playoffs, and SOMEBODY get’s so damn hot (Troy Glaus hot), that we roll on through.

Sorry, fellas. Time to take my guys to basketball practice.

L8R

By Robert

November 10, 2006 05:45 PM | Link to this

Ryan FREEL? No, and then no again

Yes he has had a few good seasons. But he is a one dimensional players who lives off his legs - He is now on the wrong side of 30, and the momemnt his legs start to go, his avg, obp, and steals totals will go the way of a Bobby Cox playoff run (into the toilet)

Freel and players like him are great when you find one in your organization. Greater still if you can pawn them off to someone else after a few goods years. NEVER should you give up something for them

Think Scott Podsednik (who is a better player than Ryan Freel)and remember what a small step it is from 70 empty steals to being a pinch runner or maybe off the roster all together

Now, legs with power or legs with average (or legs with hoobies) is a different matter entirely

By The Grinch

November 10, 2006 05:48 PM | Link to this

Jack Palance died. That sucks. There goes your thing about famous people in threes, FBG.

I’m with you, DonC. They gotta give that up plus pay him full price and a two-year extension? I hope Cashman threw in some vaseline.

By Robert

November 10, 2006 05:51 PM | Link to this

Yes Kevin Brown was on a mission. He was probably p** cuz he got robbed of the Cy Young Award in 1996

Last time I checked, 25 guys on a mission should be able to beat one on a mission

Name me the last Braves that has ever been on a mission

(answer - Chipper Jones, to extend that 100 rbi season streak - DOINK, sound of baseball striking bone)

Why is it that the other team could always have their guys on a mission while our guys just ho-hummed it thinking tomorrow would always come?

Players play baseball. With some exceptions, they are generally not great thinkers (not sayin they are stupid). They may “know the game” in that they recognize a pitch, or a situation, or have muscle memory and so on, but they “know the game” in the sense of startegy only so much as they are taught

And in Atlanta, the basic startegy is designed and “taught” by a rank jackass

By Robert

November 10, 2006 05:57 PM | Link to this

Nathan - if it was ONE guy over and over again failing in the playoffs (well it is but hear me out)

If it was one PLAYER every year - but it isnt - It’s been different guys year by year.

Glavine and Maddux havent been as bad in the playoffs as is often supposed

The ones that had big success were the power pitchers Avery and Smoltz (so the point of power pitching in the postseason has validity)

But beyond that it’s been most everyone exposed to the Braves philosophy who one by one or in unison have NOT come thru, have NOT been on a mission in the playoffs

Mission control is to blame

In football, if a guy gets hurt, the coach is blamed for being on the wrong end of the injury risk question. That may be going too far, but bottom line, if the team doesnt perform, - I dont care if they all go 0 for 27 against Chris Reitsma - the buck stops with the MANAGER

If Chipper didnt hit, Bobby shouldve done something different so that he did. Maybe a rest day in midseason. Maybe a chnage of philosophy. Maybe a hummer.

If Wohlers threw a hanging slider. Cox shouldnt have had him in there. Or shouldve taught him a different pitch. Or shoulve let him pitch the 8th a few times in July.

If the team dont perform, the buck stops with the manager. PEE-REE-OHD

By Head Coach

November 10, 2006 05:59 PM | Link to this

Sheffield for three young pitchers ? ARE YOU KIDDING ME !! lol. The Tigers just got taken to the cleaners by Brian Cashman.

By Thomas

November 10, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

Sheffield traded for two tiger Prospects.

By DonCoburleone

November 10, 2006 06:07 PM | Link to this

Uhhhhhh, god, every time I get reminded of the Leyritz homerun I just get that sick feeling in my stomach like someone ran over my dog…

F***’ Jim Leyritz!

By Robert

November 10, 2006 06:14 PM | Link to this

Head Coach - two of the pitchers were getting saves in the minors

Hot pitching prospects typically are not relegated to relieving in the minors

By Robert

November 10, 2006 06:19 PM | Link to this

“F*’ Jim Leyritz!”

Um, what was Leyritz supposed to do? NOT swing at that hanging slider?

F* Bobby Cox for having Wohlers in there to pitch to him

I suppose we could say F* Scott Brosius for getting a hit off Maddux leading off the 8th inning of game one of the 99 Series

And F* Chuck Knoblaugh for daring to try and deek Lonnie Smith

All misguided

F* Bobby Cox for having the wrong players in in the wrong situations in the wrong frame of mind to win in the playoffs

By BB FAN

November 10, 2006 06:20 PM | Link to this

Robert,

We know, all managers, coaches, players and everybody else in baseball are all absolute morons for thinking Cox is a great manager. You have told us this millions of times. Oh yeah, and that they all conspire to keep Cox in Atlanta because they actually know he is a horrible manager. That was the best one.

Anyway, we all know what you think about Cox! You sound like a broken record. Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah! Over and Over again. Give it a rest pal. Why is it that EVERY DAMN post you make, you have to say the SAME DAMN thing over again? You are entitled to your opinion, but when you simply repeat yourself over and over, you sound like an babbling idiot.

By Paul

November 10, 2006 06:27 PM | Link to this

If he’s healthy, is there any chance the braves try and sign kieth foulke? He was lights out for the A’s and the Sox before he got hurt. Maybe he would consider being a set up man.

By Head Coach

November 10, 2006 06:29 PM | Link to this

Robert , those two pitchers are Kevin Whelan 4th round pick in 2005 with 42 saves 2.30 ERA and Anthony Claggett 11th round pick in 2005 with 21 saves 1.75 ERA. You might want to look before you leap , Robert. O yea , Humberto Sanchez is the principle pitcher in the deal , the other two guys are “JUST” relief pitchers.

By BB FAN

November 10, 2006 06:34 PM | Link to this

DonCoburleone,

You may be right about Drew. But there is a reason he is hated by fans. And just going to a different city is not going to change that. All fans know what a jacka$$ he was when he was drafted by the Phillies. If he cared what fans thought, he would have signed with the Braves even if it was for a few million less. He could have been forgiven by fans by saying in a press conference that he took less money to be in a familiar place close to home. Or anywhere for that matter besides just going to the highest bidder.

But instead, him and Borass went for the money only. I’m not sure why players need to leave a place that’s comfortable for an extra 2 mill a year. If you make 8 million a year, what’s the big deal of making 10 million if you are happy and comfortable?

Oh well, I don’t feel sorry for him at all. The guy is a jacka$$.

By DonCoburleone

November 10, 2006 06:47 PM | Link to this

The Yankees will have these great young talented arm and then 4 years from now they will trade them away because they aren’t going 20-1 with a 1.25ERA.

I mean my God, just look at 2 of the biggest postseason pitchers each of the last 2 years - Jose Contreras and Jeff Weaver. Both were on the Yankees very early in their careers… THE YANKEES BLOW!

By DonCoburleone

November 10, 2006 06:53 PM | Link to this

Info on the guys traded for Sheffield… I’m interested to know how Tigers fans are taking this…

Sheffield comes to Detroit without the Tigers breaking up their vaunted pitching staff in return, but the price will cost Leyland at least two names he would’ve likely had a chance to write into his pitching staff in a year or two. The 23-year-old Sanchez was considered the top pitching prospect in a farm system deep in arms. He was one of the most frequently mentioned names in trade rumors last July until an elbow injury essentially ended his season.

Long regarded as a high-potential arm, Sanchez used this as his breakout season. The burly right-hander went 5-3 with a 1.76 ERA in 11 starts at Double-A Erie before posting the same record with a 3.86 ERA at Triple-A Toledo.

Whelan, 22, was one of the jewels of Detroit’s 2005 First-Year Player Draft, a closer in the making who saved 27 games for Class A Lakeland this year to go with a 4-1 record and 2.67 ERA. Claggett, 22, went 7-2 with a 0.91 ERA and 14 saves for low Class A West Michigan.

By BravesFaninRockies

November 10, 2006 07:01 PM | Link to this

Robert,

Top pitching prospects pitch in relief in the minors all the time now. Blame it on the era of the one-innning specialist (the embrace of which is one of BC’s flaws — yikes — I’m agreeing with you that he has some). Look up and down any team’s minor league system and you’ll see guys as low as A ball being groomed as setup men and closers for the Majors.

As for the Braves being a “hack-and-jack” team, I believe some of us are having a senior moment. Since ‘91, they’ve always had speed — Nixon, Gant, Deion, Marquis, Lofton, BJ (when he was younger), Chipper (likewise), Drew, Furcal, (even Quilvio Veras!) — and for the most part, decent situational hitters — Lemke, Belliard, Treadway, Marcus, TP, Grissom.

The ‘06 roster was an odd one for Cox as well. From his days in Toronto, he always wanted fast guys at the top of the order. Even if they weren’t big base-stealers he wanted guys who didn’t have to play station-to-station. There weren’t any options this year. You play with the hand you’re dealt by the GM.

By flbravesgirl

November 10, 2006 07:11 PM | Link to this

Yeah, Grinch, but I don’t think Mr. Palance ever pitched for the Braves. Sorry to hear about though, he was a cool old tough guy.

DonC, maybe in 4 years George will be drooling in his private nursing home suite (or he’ll have gone on to someplace warmer) and someone with more rational expectations will be overseeing the Yanks.

By The Grinch

November 10, 2006 07:20 PM | Link to this

Good lord, this is the second time in two days that I find myself agreeing with (I can’t say his name ‘cause I’m a man of my word)…y’all know who. The Hawks may win again tonight at this rate. :-)

By The Grinch

November 10, 2006 07:26 PM | Link to this

FBG, neither did Ed Bradley or Red Aurbach (who both died in the last few days); I thought we were just talking about “famous people” dying in threes. Although, with Sain, that makes four. Oh, well. If you factor out Aurbach (who was about four or five days ago) that makes three famous people in three straight days. Three Braves dying in a short time frame would be highly unlikely.

By Stinky

November 10, 2006 07:31 PM | Link to this

gooble dee goo ooh boo. woah woah hobo doe. waka waka hum dingah. wak wak wack. quakah wahkah mak mak mak, gootoo og mo dobin (la la tenkey wenkey laba daba doob doo). kolo wolo waba daba wonk wonk.

By DonCoburleone

November 10, 2006 07:41 PM | Link to this

I just read an article about the Edmonds signing where it referred to him as the “preeminent center fielder in the game”…. WTF? Andruw Jones anyone? Hello McFly… Ugh, I am starting to really wish the Cardinals had not just won the World Series…

By DonCoburleone

November 10, 2006 07:44 PM | Link to this

huh?

By Carroll

November 10, 2006 07:44 PM | Link to this

DOB: lies, damned lies, and statistics…yes Giles’ numbers over the last 3-4 years are solid but we ALL know that wasn’t the story last year…he’s clearly on his way down and even when he was good, he was never a clutch player. I have NEVER seen another player with so many runner-on-3rd-less-than-2-out situations (where all you need is a fly ball), fail so consistently.

And I think we ALL should have a better appreciation for a guy who can regularly get 3 outs in the 8th…those 3 outs can be as hard and gut-wrenching as the 21 outs preceeding the 8th inning. And if Wicky fails to repeat, we have another option with Linebrink.

By The Grinch

November 10, 2006 08:12 PM | Link to this

Lo! and behold, the Hawks actually are winning at halftime. The Thrashers are behind early to the Rangers, but Exelby just dropped the gloves with that douche who gave him a concussion with a cheap shot last year and kicked his butt. Y’all should see it on sportscenter tonight. First fight I’ve seen in a while.

Glavine has declined his option, whatever that means. Honestly, if the dude comes back bygones are just gonna have to be bygones, I’m not gonna root against my own team; I just hope he doesn’t so I don’t have to deal with that internal conflict. And heaven help him if I’m at a game where he’s blowing chunks. :-)

By The Grinch

November 10, 2006 08:14 PM | Link to this

Stinky, is that a video game or a porn soundtrack?

By flbravesgirl

November 10, 2006 08:41 PM | Link to this

Grinch, I was thinking of a Braves-related 3 : Joe Niekro(Yeah, I know the bulk of his career was elsewhere), Johnny Sain and ????. Palance, Bradley, Aurbach (I thought there was an “e” in there somewhere?) are a different group of 3.

On a cheerier note: How about my boy McCann?! Of course we knew that he should win the Silver Slugger but that doesn’t mean that it couldn’t be messed up by some idiots (like the one calling Edmonds “the preeminent center fielder in the game”. Someone actually wrote that, DonC? Have they never seen Andruw?!)

By Goody

November 10, 2006 08:44 PM | Link to this

The Braves should also go for Dave Roberts to play LF and lead off

By The Grinch

November 10, 2006 08:55 PM | Link to this

FBG, you’re right; I was spelling him wrong, and I forgot about Joe Neikro. I do make mistakes every now and then, but extremely rarely. I’m definitely proud of Mac. Unfortunately, gotta continue with the depressing news; Bill Walsh has leukemia.

By The Grinch

November 10, 2006 09:36 PM | Link to this

I don’t wish to alarm anyone, but the Hawks are now 4-1, and have been winning convincingly on the road. It would be nice if they kept up this ratio.

By nathan

November 10, 2006 10:00 PM | Link to this

BravesFaninRockies

As for the Braves being a “hack-and-jack” team, I believe some of us are having a senior moment. Since ‘91, they’ve always had speed — Nixon, Gant, Deion, Marquis, Lofton, BJ (when he was younger), Chipper (likewise), Drew, Furcal, (even Quilvio Veras!) — and for the most part, decent situational hitters — Lemke, Belliard, Treadway, Marcus, TP, Grissom.

I’ll assume you’re talking about me with your Senior Moment comment. So here’s some stats to back up my “old age”. Assuming you don’t think I’m a senior in HS! LOL.

KENNY LOFTON

1996 with CLE: 75 SB

1997 with ATL: 27 SB

1998 with CLE: 54 SB

MARQUIS GRISSOM

1993 with MON: 53 SB

1994 with MON: 36 SB

1995 with ATL: 29 SB

Note that he played in more games in 1995 than 1994, due to the strike

RAFAEL FURCAL

1999 with A & AA: 96 SB (in 126 games)

2005 with ATL: 46 SB (his career high)

DEION SANDERS

1994 with ATL: 19 SB (his highest in ATL)

1997 with CIN: 56 SB

THIS IS WHERE IT GETS INTERESTING

RYAN KLESKO

1999 with ATL: 5 SB (most with ATL)

2000 with SD: 23 SB

2001 with SD: 23 SB (caught only 4 times)

Odd how he got “faster” with age?

I also thought I’d throw this out there for you since it’s obviously where you’re from.

COLOARADO ROCKIES

1996 TEAM TOTALS: 221 HR’s AND 201 SB

DANTE FRICKIN BICHETTE at age 32 had 31 SB’s!!!!

This shows that teams with power CAN RUN TO, if the manager so chooses!

By Desi

November 10, 2006 10:42 PM | Link to this

Are the Braves interested in Cuban infielder Bob Alou? If Bob Alou came to Atlanta would it be appropriate to do the tomahawk chop or should we dance the conga? What is Bob Alou’s OBP and will Bobby know how to manage such a talent?

By geauxbraves2000

November 10, 2006 10:50 PM | Link to this

Anyone else getting sick of this phrase: Roger Clemens’s agent, Randy Hendricks, We’ve talked to several teams, but Roger has yet to decide what he will do next year

Geaux Braves!!

By Scalp 'em Braves

November 10, 2006 10:55 PM | Link to this

Robert:

RUSS NIXON was a better manager than Bobby? Man, I know you hate Bobby, but that is like trying to compare Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton as fighters of communism. RUSS NIXON???? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND??? THE GUY WAS A COMPLETE DISASTER!! You are a freakin’ broken record - get somebody to move the needle, and for God’s sake, find something else to rail about. I ain’t reading your ridiculous posts anymore.

J.D. Drew isn’t liked in the Toilet (L.A.) because he is quiet and religious. Give me a break!! The only altar Drew worships at is the moneyaltar - that is the way he has always been, and the way he will always be. The only difference between Drew and Sheffield is that Dres only speaks through his agent’s demands for money - Sheffield just runs his mouth.

Glavine - I don’t blame the guy for leaving - he wanted a 4 year deal, and the Braves were not willing to offer it. But, he made his bed - let him lie in it. I could care less if he comes back. Maddux, on the other hand, I would like to see come back for a year. The Braves basically offered to pay a pasture year for him. He did what he had to do, has done pretty damned well since then. Let him get the tour this year, and retire as a Brave

By BravesFaninRockies

November 10, 2006 11:13 PM | Link to this

nathan,

All in good fun, my man.

Check out these numbers for the Cox era: SB/CS/GDP 1991: 165/76/104 1992: 126/60/86 1993: 125/48/127 1994: 48/31/104 1995: 73/43/106 1996: 83/43/144 1997: 108/58/143 1998: 98/43/104 1999: 148/66/120 2000: 148/56/127 2001: 85/46/132 2002: 76/39/147 2003: 68/22/124 2004: 86/32/123 2005: 92/32/147 2006: 52/35/132

In 99 & 2000, they had 6 guys with double-digit steals (Otis “my man” Nixon had 26 in ‘99 ?!?!?!?)

For a team built around pitching and the long ball, Cox’s teams tried to run when they had the horses.

Lack of speed seemed to kill the 2006 team, which stole bases successfully only 59% of the time — the worst of BC’s tenure. A team that can’t run and grounds into 0.82 DP per game is REALLY slow. And unless the pitching is stellar (ahem), the inability to manufacture runs hurts. I’m not a huge fan of the running game, but you have to be able to play it in the NL, or at least to avoid rally killers like DPs.

This team could not do that.

By nathan

November 11, 2006 12:05 AM | Link to this

BravesFaninRockies

I guess the “issues” I have with the Braves under cox, has less to do with the pure stolen bases as opposed to the lack of CONTACT hitters, that would allow him to put runners in motion to avoid double plays and allow runners to go 1st to 3rd on routine singles. I suppose one could argue that if the players on the roster ACTUALLY had speed, there would be no need to send a guy, just for the purpose of getting him to third. As for the DP’s and avoiding them, it seems we hit into a LOT of them. Sometimes, it’s not even the quantity of those, as much as the timing, that KILLS us.

Not to mention that many would argue that SB percentage should be the primary factor in dertermining if a team is a “successful” running team. It’s along the same line as a guy who swings for the fenses on EVERY pitch, hitting 40 homeruns. Pure “stats” say this player was “successful” but if the guy strikes out 200 times (Richie Sexon), it’s easy to justify saying the guy WASTES a lot of AB’s.

I’m impressed with your “homework”. Nice job.

It does show that to some extent we are both right. But you are probably right that when given the guys to run with, he does “allow” it. I just find it alarming that a guy like Furcal, that was BORN to be a leadoff hitter in the mold of the old school leadoff hitters, was swinging for the fenses so ofton. Bobby shoulda had him doing pushups everytime he popped one up. LOL! But I guess ESPN doesn’t show too many SB highlights, do they? And I realize that minor league catchers that can ACTUALLY throw runners out, don’t remain in the minors for long. Not to mention, most pitchers in the minors are probably taught to work on PITCHING rather than holding runners and perfecting the “slide step”, along with refining a pickoff move. But man alive! The numbers CAN’T lie that much can they? I mean we are talking about a guy that stole 96 frickin bases in 126 games. What in the name of Vince Coleman happened to him inbetween now and 2000?

Also, I do realize that both Grissom and Lofton had foot/leg/groin injuries in their first season in ATL (for Lofton, I guess it was the only one), but still.

To me, of ALL the stats I checked out. Klesko is the one that for the life of me, just baffles me. Without COMPLETELY going back and doublechecking, the ONLY logical answer is that he was alway on the “backend” of double steals. But I find it hard to believe that SD tried that 23 times, not to mention that sooner or later, you’d think that teams would start throwing down to second, to get the trailing runner. I know that Joe Simpson and Don Sutton always used to talk about him being “sneaky quick”, but Come on. What gives there?

If you have a theory, I’d like to hear it. Seriously….no sarcasm.

L8R, dude.

By The Grinch

November 11, 2006 12:56 AM | Link to this

Jimmy Smith, you’re wrong for that 10:42 post. :-)

Nathan, that’s sick. I thought I was faster than Klesko. Interesting.

FBG, didn’t mean to run you off, just sad about Walsh. He pioneered the West Coast offense, and even though it’s ruining the career of Michael Vick right now that isn’t Walsh’s fault.

By David O'Brien

November 11, 2006 01:03 AM | Link to this

Black Keys were simply astounding tonight. And they DON’T need a bass player, at least not live. Those two dudes create such a racket, it sounds like five guys up there _ two drummers and three guitarists. The drummers is just relentless. Great show. And the opening band, Black Angels, also very impressive. Like the Doors crossed with the Cult or something, dark, psychedelic, droning sound. Good stuff….

Back to bizness:

Glavine filing for free agency means absolutely nothing, folks. Believe me. I talked to his agent tonight and he confirmed as much. The guy had no reason NOT to file for “provisional” free agency, because it just means if he doesn’t work something out with the Mets before the 20th, the deadline for them to decline his option, then he can test the waters. If he’d not filed, then he really wouldn’t be protecting his rights as a potential free agent. Really, it means nothing. Procedural move. And we all knew he was going to decline his $7.5 mill option; that was a given, just like it’s a given the Mets will decline the $14 mill option, since he stands to make $16 mill if they exercise that option and he makes the All-Star team and picks up the extra $2 mill that’s a clause in that deal.

They’re talking to his agent, hammering away on a potential two-year deal or one-year with vesting option. Then he’ll see if he wants to accept it or check and see what the Braves would formally offer him after the 20th, his free-agent date (his is later than others only because of the deadline for Mets to pick up his option).

Every single thing in the quation points to him staying with Mets except one big one _ family. But if the Mets offer him a deal worth potentially $22 mill or more for two years, I see no way he’d accept perhaps a $6-8 mill deal for one year from Braves, even with the $3 mill buyout tacked on. And I can’t see any way they’d go two years with him.

He keeps saying he doesn’t know if he’ll pitch for Mets or Braves, but they haven’t even made him an offer and the agent assured me there’s no standing offer from Braves. And the agent and Schuerholz aren’t exactly buddies after that last ugly negotiation and the subsequent fallout, up to and including Schuerholz’s tell-all book chapter about the incident.

I just don’t see it happening. I did think there was a good chance near end of season, but that was before Pedro got hurt, before the Mets finished one win shy of the World Series, etc. They’ve got the need and the money to give him a huge deal that would dwarf the Braves’ offer, assuming the Braves would even make him a serious offer.

By David O'Brien

November 11, 2006 01:06 AM | Link to this

Oh, and someone asked earlier about Pratt. He won’t be back. Brayan Pena will be the backup catcher, barring something unforeseen.

Switch-hitting Pena should give the Braves a lot more hits from the position on days he plays, and he can hit lefties and righties well. Plus he’s shown he can hit without playing regularly, say once a week or whatever.

By David O'Brien

November 11, 2006 01:13 AM | Link to this

Typos, typos. Sorry, it’s late and my ears are ringing.

Drummer, not drummers. Only one drummer, but he is a force of nature.

Equation, not quation.

And to be clear: The Braves, not the Mets, are the team that hasn’t made Glavine an offer. And it’s the Mets who are hammering away in negotiations with his agent. Just wanted to clary those points.

By The Grinch

November 11, 2006 01:53 AM | Link to this

DOB, if Pena can swing the bat at all, he’s a better option than Pratt.

The only two-peice band I’ve seen live that was successful in my opinion was Marshall and Anger. One played accoustic guitar and the other played violin, mandolin and sometimes guitar as well. They were simply awesome playing folk, celtic and bluegrass. I’m really having trouble envisioning electric guitar and drums only (especially a solo set) playing garage stuff, but I’ll take your word for it. Sounds interesting. G’night, all.

By Alex

November 11, 2006 02:18 AM | Link to this

Benedict Glavine better stay with the Mutts. The Braves don’t need starting pitching, esp in the form of a lefty who is near the end of his career and has little to nothing left in the tank.

They have Chuck James and Horacio Ramirez, and will get Mike Hampton back. That is 3 starting LHP for those keeping track.

What’s needed is a lead off man, another quality reliever or two and for Chipper Jones to stay off the DL next year!

BTW…The Detroit Tigers made a bad move, giving up so much talent for one guy just b/c your offense was shut down by the Cards in the WS. They will live to regred it.

By Head Coach

November 11, 2006 02:18 AM | Link to this

Rockies Fan , thats an outstanding post. It could not have been said better and I just wanted to add this: The Mets Jose Reyes had 64 stolen bases in 2006 , the entire Braves roster had 52. Even worse is when you subtract the 35 caught stealing you come up with a plus 17 for the team , Reyes alone had a plus 47 by himself. Thats how incredibly pathetic the team speed really was. The fact that the offense finished 2nd in runs scored , 1st in homeruns and 2nd in RBI in the N.L. is truly amazing. 49 games played in 2006 were decided by one run………… 30 of them were losses , imagine what the Braves would have accomplished if they would have had a prototypical leadoff hitter.

By Alex

November 11, 2006 02:26 AM | Link to this

imagine what the Braves would have accomplished if they would have had a prototypical leadoff hitter. Head Coach, we don’t have to imagine if John S. gets off his backside and pulls a deal for Carl Crawford from the D-Rays.

By Tom

November 11, 2006 03:12 AM | Link to this

I understand wanting to get rid of Giles & Andruw…MONEY. But nothing has been said about Chipper and the money he will make. I like Chipper…but so has the DL the last few years. The poor guy looks like he is walking on barefoot on glass all the time. Maybe going to the AL where he can DH some will help him stay healthy. The Angels are looking for a 3rd baseman. They have a very loaded farm system. They also don’t seem to mind spending money. They are in the running for Cubs 3rd baseman FA. So Chipper’s salary with them would not be a problem. I know most of you would ask who do we get to replace Chipper. But the same can be said of who to replace Andruw & Giles.

By ncscoots

November 11, 2006 07:20 AM | Link to this

Sorry, GIDP per game is not a function of speed. It is instead related to OBP and balls in play. That’s why a raw number of GIDP per game has no significance. Instead, a relative ranking by teams of the ratio of GIDP per GIDP opportunities will tell you if the Braves actually GIDP more often than other teams. But whether they did or not neither supports nor refutes the position that the Braves need faster players.

Most of the arguments that I’ve seen on the blog re speed seem to revolve around SB, which is a totally different animal than team speed. Team speed is about first-to-third and second-to-home (at which the Braves were fine), while stealing a base is an offensive tactic (at which they were not, but that’s as much a result of poor technique and recognition as lack of speed. Francoeur has great speed, for example, and was consistently thrown out). If some of you think the Braves need a base-stealing threat at the top of the order (with which I disagree), that’s one thing. But you can’t buttress that notion by saying the Braves lack team speed. Apples and oranges.

By tim

November 11, 2006 07:43 AM | Link to this

So Giles had a bad year. He still is alot better than Chipper Jones—-why not get rid of him. At least Giles will play hurt, Do you see Chipper playing hurt or even playing at that. Chipper needs to go—gice Giles one more year and keep him batting second—not first. As some else asked …..who are you going to put at second that can play. I have watch Giles take some ugly hits at second trying to turn a double and get up and play. AT least he is not afraid and he will play—-what say you Chipper—bench warming—Jones…Are you going to play this year or sit on you butt like you did last year…..

By Robert

November 11, 2006 08:44 AM | Link to this

“RUSS NIXON was a better manager than Bobby? Man, I know you hate Bobby, but that is like trying to compare Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton as fighters of communism. RUSS NIXON???? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND??? THE GUY WAS A COMPLETE DISASTER”

Dude, all I did was point out that when they managed the same team in the same year, Russ Nixon’s 1990 Braves finished 1 game ahead of Bobby Cox’ 1990 Braves

If Russ Nixon was a complete disaster, then somehow when Cox managed the same team, they were one game worse

What does that mean about their relative abilities as managers?

Well, it makes one wonder

As for Head Coach, I knew darn well the names, statistics, and draft records of the three pitchers Detroit gave up for Sheffield. If ONE of those three guys ever makes it to the majors (much less succeeds there) it would be defying the odds.

The Tigers got one of the best players in the game (proven over time) for three lottery tickets.

By Lew

November 11, 2006 09:10 AM | Link to this

Is anyone aware of the 10-5 Rule? That’s why we won’t trade Chipper and Andruw. They can’t trade them without their permission. It’s in the rules. They can’t do it. Andruw has repeatedly said he doesn’t want to play elsewhere. His agent has said they will not accept a trade. It just isn’t going to happen. Do you think they would even try to trade Chipper (who also has to give his permission) after he renegotiated his contract to save them money? He has said he would retire before going anywhere else. It’s time to give it up people. If Andruw leaves it will be for free agency after 07. Chipper when his contract is up in a couple of years. Enough, already.

By Robert

November 11, 2006 09:26 AM | Link to this

You know, I reread that jab - Cox to Russ Nixon as Reagan to Clinton

So in a subtle way, comparing Cox to Reagan

I LIKE the comparison - Cox’s managing strategies make about as much sense as Reaganomics, and of course we all know Ronnie had severe Alzheimer’s

I LIKE the comparison

“You may launch all missiles” - was that the famous quote?

By Robert

November 11, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this

Note - this is not directed at ALL bloggers - and the folks with whom I have had an ongoing DISCUSSION (civil, tho we might disagree mightily) please do not take offense - it’s not at you

But - Interesting how the same baseball experts whose opinions are cited to ridicule me because they say Cox is a great manager are held in utter contempt when they call Jim Edmunds the premier CF in the game as opposed to Andruw

Of course I remember reading comments that start out “Myself and many ither baseball expertsd all agree” - which of course means the writer thinks of himself as an expert

And if I say that RNixon’s 1990 Braves were a game ahead of Cox’s (fact, I didnt make it up) - then instead of people taking a second look and thinking about what that might mean, I am ridiculed for saying that Nixon was a better manager than Cox

In other words - the experts are geniuses when they agree with y’all

the experts are idiots when they disagree with y’all

anyone who mentions data that suggests that your conclusions are flawed is an idiot

By KC

November 11, 2006 09:49 AM | Link to this

DOB: In reagard to Giles at Petco… I really would build a case on 10 games. Especially when over a third of his career at-bats there came this year when he was (for most of the season) uncomfortably batting leadoff, and was struggling a bit everywhere he played for the most part.

By KC

November 11, 2006 09:51 AM | Link to this

Robert: Yes I agree, the comparison is good one. Reagan is already remembered as one of the greatest presidents of our era, and Cox will be remembered as one of the great MLB managers of our era.

By KC

November 11, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this

TIM

When Chipper is healthy, he’s still the best all around 3rd baseman in the game. Don’t believe me? Chipper had only 411 at-bats this year due to injury, but take Chipper’s 2006 numbers and project them out to the same number of AB’s as David Wright or Miguel Cabrera. You will find that he’s still the best when he’s on the field (offensively). *Defensively, Chipper and Wright are comparable to one another and both are much better than Cabrera.

Now of course Chipper is in his mid-30’s now and spends far too much time on the DL these days, so if you could pick any one of the 3 3rd baseman I mentioned to start your team with… you would be crazy not to go with one of the younger guys. But the fact remains that when Chipper is out there… he’s still the best 3rd baseman in baseball.

By KC

November 11, 2006 10:07 AM | Link to this

*CORRECTION:meant to say “In regard to Marcus Giles at Petco… I really *wouldn’t build a case on 10 games”.

I still believe Petco is a gap-hitters paradise, and Marcus is as pure a gap-hitter as there is in the game.

By eware

November 11, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this

DOB, can’t agree with you more about the Black Keys. Did you notice that he played the same guitar all night - I’ve never seen that before. I figured with how hard he was playing that he’d break a string or two.

I was a little unimpressed with the Black Angels. Just kind of bored me. Sounded like I was listening to “White Rabbit” the whole set. But, I did like the two drummer set-up.

By BravesFaninRockies

November 11, 2006 10:17 AM | Link to this

nathan and coach,

‘Preciate the props.

ncscoots,

Agreed that a team with more men on base will tend to GIDP more often. I would argue that this team was not sneaky fast on the bases but average or worse. The high CS percentage (on a LOW number of attempts) is a great indication. If the team stole 50 and was caught 15-20 times, you’d say they never ran by orders of the manager (think Oakland) or only had a single stealing threat. Busted double-steals may have inflated that percentage, but then again, I can’t recall that many DS tries this year. This was a team of leadfoots, because of injuries, age, etc.

As I said, I’m not a huge fan of the running game. Still, look at a team like the Anaheim (yes) Angels under Scoscia. Since ‘01, they’ve stolen between 116 and 148 bases a year and have been CS a third of the time or less. As a team. They also scored between 736 and 851 runs a year … acceptable numbers.

Scoscia and Mickey Hatcher want guys to not take a lot of pitches, not get into deep counts, not strike out, which of course means you don’t wear down the opposing starters. But it’s another way to generate offense on a team that other than Figgins and when he was there Eckstein is not loaded with jackrabbits. And it’s a strategy employed by the coaching staff. They don’t necessarily seek out contact hitters, they expect players to make contact, even if they on occasion take some pretty goofy looking hacks.

For a NL club, a version of this that’s not as exaggerated as Scoscia’s, might be a great way to bring balance to the offense. IMO, that’s the only way Frenchy will ever truly become the second coming of Vlad Guerrero.

By Robert

November 11, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this

“Reagan is already remembered as one of the greatest presidents of our era”

Um, yeah ok

Whatever you say

He was already senile while in office.

If a senile b—-rd can be a great president, then by golly a senile b——rd can be a great manager

By BravesFaninRockies

November 11, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this

And BTW, “free-swinging” Vlad draws 50-60 BB a season and strikes out only 60-70 times. If Jeffrey cut down his strikeouts by even a third, think how much better a hitter he would be.

By Daybed Wagmoe

November 11, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

the twilight singers had to cancel because dulli had a sore throat that couldn’t take anymore damage. doctor’s orders, i’m told. apparently when they played atlanta on wednesday, he was really hurting. you’ll enjoy “powder burns,” it’s good…although i’m a bigger fan of “play blackberry belle.”

i’m reading a lot of talk over on the braves message board that gil meche may be coming to atlanta. there’s also a rumor that we’ll send hudson and a prospect to texas for michael young.

i also don’t see how signing glavine would help the team in the long-term. if we’re only going to have him for a year or two, we’d have to move one of the young arms in the rotation, right? and the braves don’t seem like the type of organization that would bring back one player for the headlines, coverage and nostalgia — at least, they wouldn’t put that priority above everything else. schuerholz is too sensible for that.

By nathan

November 11, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this

Lew

Is anyone aware of the 10-5 Rule? That’s why we won’t trade Chipper and Andruw.

btw: are we back on “speaking” terms?

You are absolutely correct. Especially when dealing with Chipper, because nobody really wants him, with his health issues. Dealing Chipper is a non-issue…AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN.

Andruw on the otherhand….

Just last night (maybe the night before), Gammons was STILL saying he wouldn’t be shocked if Andruw is moved. What he was saying is that if JS would happen to work out a deal with one of the teams Andruw might be interested in signing with (Angels?), and that team was allowed the window to work out an extension, Andruw/Boras may give in. I know Andruw is “posturing” a little bit about emphatically saying he’s not going anywhere. But if after next year the Braves don’t resign him, what’s he gonna do? Stomp his foot, and say “I WANTED TO PLAY IN ATLANTA, I’M NOT GOING ANYWHERE NOW!”

Believe me, him and Boras have an IDEA of where he’d like to go, if the Braves choose to let him walk.

Sheffield ALSO said last week that “whatever” team traded for him wasn’t gonna be happy, or wasn’t gonna be getting a “happy” player. Blah, blah, blah…….He seemed to be PRETTY DAMN HAPPY yesterday, didn’t he?

Last year when the Braves were rumored to be shopping Andruw (when he was placed on waivers), he said he wanted to stay. But if the Braves were trying to trade him, that he would take that as sign that they didn’t WANT him anymore, and would think about accepting a trade. If JS REALLY wants to trade him, and he approaches it, in a friendly (face to face - not letting him find out through the media) manner, and HONESTLY gives Andruw the reasons why the Braves NEED to make a move, I find it hard to believe that Andruw would say NO. Plus it would have to be the right team. I mean, he aint gonna accept a trade to Toronto.

Listen, I’m not saying that he FOR SURE is gonna be traded. I’m just saying it’s NOT AS MUCH OF A GUARANTEE that he won’t as you all say it is, just because “Andruw and Boras” said he won’t accept one. I do believe, he’d LIKE to stay and won’t accept ANY trade, but I also don’t believe that he won’t accept a trade if it’s a good one for Andruw Boras or Scott Jones (apparently they’re attacthed at the hip now. If that makes any sense.

BravesFaninRockies

I TOTALLY agree with you about Francoeur. His strike outs bother me WAY less than swinging at the first pitch and making contact all of the time (of course if that contact is a HR or any other hit that’s alright LOL!). But he gives too many AB’s away by not waiting for his pitch to “hack” at. Vlad is a GREAT example of what I believe he will become.

I think Jeff has proved that if it’s within “reach” of his bat, he can do something with it. I have no problem with that. He’s shown power to the opposite field, and quite honestly at his young age, he TRIES to take the ball to the other side more than AJ does at this stage of HIS career. So, to me, that’s a very good sign. He just needs to “slow it down” a bit, and he’ll be awesome. I do believe until he matures a little be, he’ll always have those cold streaks where nothing goes right, but who doesn’t.

With his arm and a little more focus in the OF, I predict by 2008 his name will ALWAY be in the top 5 when it comes to MVP voting. Early last year, I was thinking to myself that he was the second coming of Brad Komminsk, but as his patience grew (not drawing walks, but “waiting” for his pitch), he started reminding me of a young Dale Murphy. Great RAW power, the ability to go the other way, but also the “ability” to make himself look kinda silly at the plate sometimes.

If his career ends up anywhere near what Murphy’s was, I could live with that.

By Metropolitan Man

November 11, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this

You guys know him better than I do, How greedy is Glavine. The guy should be blocked from the METs and braves and let him play for a team that will get him only 8 wins. What a greedy son of a b**. He’s acting like he is a premier free agent or something. You guys can have this duesce bag back.
Oh, Shea will now be called Citifield, let your cruel jokes begin.

By nathan

November 11, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this

Daybed Wagmoe

and the braves don’t seem like the type of organization that would bring back one player for the headlines, coverage and nostalgia

You are probably right. But, maybe JS should rethink that. Before you all trash me, I realize that GLAVINE LEFT, OK. My thinking is this. Do we want to be known as the organization that doesn’t recognize and celebrate the individual accomplishments of one of the GREATEST Braves of all time (Boston, Milwaukee, or Atlanta)?

Yes, I realize with our payroll, that might not be possible. But I don’t think we want to alienate certain players and go down as the team that says “so what” what can you do for me right now.

On the other hand, I TOTALLY agree with you, IF he wasn’t better than our other options. If we can find a pitcher for 1/3 of the money that does what he did last year SIGN EM UP! But I doubt we can. We would get what we paid for in him. Just like we did with the closer we signed last offseason….oh…never mind.

The other school of thought, is what the New England Patriots have done in recent years. (other than Tom Brady), NOBODY is above the team. They don’t celebrate individual accomplishment, and anybody that wants them to, or demands more money, is SHIPPED OUT. That seems to work well for them. But we all know that Bobby would NEVER do that to a player he liked. Not to mention that the biggest problem I have with bringing Glavine back, would be that more than likely we would get to postseason, like we alway had before and THEN we’d be relying on to 40 something starters to carry the load. Why not sign Kenny Rogers and Roger Clemens while were at it. Hey, maybe Nolan Ryan’s been taking his Advil and feels “fresh enough” to make a start. LOL. Not sure ANY of those options works come October.

Is there anyway we could “USE” Glavine to win the division and THEN have Clemens start in the post season? Just kidding people.

By Troy

November 11, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

Is today the last day that teams can negotiate exclusively with their free agents?

By Bravo Nam

November 11, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

BBFan Agree with what you said on Drew. From day one, the guy has been chasing the money- could’ve stayed in Atlanta for a few bucks less, an environment that suited him, close to home- chose the money and ends up in a city where people hate him. Both he and the Dodgers deserved everything they got- love seeing these big money teams get bit in the a* when they use their chequebooks instead of their brains- and always happy to see greedy people like Drew have their greed catch up to them- I thought it was a great result!

Also agree with what you said about little Robert. The thing the little fella doesn’t realise is that every time he calls his favourite guy a jackass he’s lookin’ in the mirror!

DonC, BravesFaninRockies, Head Coach Agreed. Detroit obviously owed Cashman a favour. Giving away three good pitching prospects for Sheffield- who’s going to command a lot of money and is a cancerous presence in the clubhouse with his me, me, me attitude (the reason he loves Leyland is that the old guy strokes his ego). If we look at it from a Braves perspective- if we gave away three very good prospects to get Sheffield fans would be running riot- last I looked Detroit flamed out in the WS- and they’ve just given up a lot to get a guy who’s superb at HELPING his team flame out in the playoffs!

Who would’ve thunk it Two weeks ago, who would’ve guessed two weeks later the Hawks and Thrashers would be in first place and the Falcons the ones stuttering? Who would’ve thought Robert would still be going on about his favourite penis envy coach/manager/ball boy? No prizes for guessing the odd one out here.

By Troy

November 11, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

What our offense boils down to is that McCann, Francoeur, LaRoche are the 3, 4, 5 hitters (respectively) of the future and as young and promising as those guys are, there is a lot to be excited about in Atlanta. The rest of the pieces will fill themselves in nicely with guys like Campbell, Escobar, Andrus, Blanco, Ka’aihue the Braves definitely have the talent and the management to continue to field a competitive team.

By Bravo Nam

November 11, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this

Metro Boy Agree with you- send the greedy SOB out of town to a team that will give him 5 wins for the season. Had a gutful of players with the me, me, me attitude, that put themselves before the fans, team loyalty and the integrity of the game.

By Daybed Wagmoe

November 11, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this

Do we want to be known as the organization that doesn’t recognize and celebrate the individual accomplishments of one of the GREATEST Braves of all time (Boston, Milwaukee, or Atlanta)?

you know, i think there are other ways than bringing glavine back that would recognize and celebrate his individual accomplishments. when he wins his 300th, i’m sure cox and schuerholz will gush and say wonderful things about him, and i’m also sure that the ajc would laud and praise him, in addition to the national coverage he’ll get. i just don’t think that bringing him back would fulfill the goal of recognizing and celebrating his individual accomplishments.

but the key phrase here is “individual accomplishments.” if we’re going to recognize and celebrate them, then it doesn’t matter what team he’s on — it’s the INDIVIDUAL that matters in this situation, or at least that’s the impression i get from reading your post. the only name on the uniform that matters is the one on the back, not the one on the front.

with the braves, it’s the opposite, and glavine’s ambivalence stinks of “what’s best for tom glavine,” not “what’s best for the mets/braves.” one would assume that is the role he would take, but the braves have to think about what’s best for their team.

By Lew

November 11, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this

Nathan-We are n speaking terms-I told you I was in a pi$$y mood and quit posting after that. Sorry, Dude.

By David O'Brien

November 11, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

Nathan, you wrote: “Just last night (maybe the night before), Gammons was STILL saying he wouldn’t be shocked if Andruw is moved.”

Well, I’ll remind you that in that same segment on ESPN, Steve Phillips said Andruw would be easier to trade because he doesn’t have a no-trade clause.

HUH? Has Steve been away from the GM chair so long that he’s forgotten that 10-and-5 status is the exact same thing as having a complete no-trade clause? Exactly the same.

By Lew

November 11, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this

Nathan-Again, I will post this quote from JS in a recent issue of ChopTalk magazine, in reference to trading Andruw. “It (the line up) needs some changes and adjustments-not major, not backing up the truck changes, not explosive changes that detonate the entire team and organization.” A trade of Andruw, or even talking trade with another team, is, in my opinion, an explosive change that detonates the entire team and organization. Nathan, you’re absolutely correct. It will NOT happen. JS has said it. Andruw has said it. Boras has said it. I don’t know when this will reach Braves’ fans, however. So many of them continue to state a trade will happen, even in the face of all the comments to the contrary. It would take an offer of staggering proportions. Coco Crisp is not staggering-even with a rookie pitcher with an ERA of over 6 runs per game. Enough.

By Robert

November 11, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

Glavine is greedy?

Please define greed.

Why do you think he is greedy? Should he have given up some money to stay in Atlanta? What would the fans give up to keep Glavine? Or are Braves fans too greedy to give up anything to keep Glavine?

Do you think that you have the right to seek for yourself the highest paying job you can find, and to attempt to secure for yourself the highest salary you can get at that said job?

Why do you hold a grudge against Glavine when he tries to do the same?

By David O'Brien

November 11, 2006 12:38 PM | Link to this

Yes, Tim, but when not “sitting on his butt,” Chipper managed to hit .324 with 26 homers, 86 RBIs and 87 runs in 110 games, with a team-high 1.005 OPS.

This just in: Dude’s still really, really good when healthy. And he has full no-trade protection as a 10-and-5 guy. And he’s got $11 mill guaranteed each of the next two years. So would you please stop saying “Let’s get rid of him instead of Giles” as though it were that easy? We’re not trading baseball cards or making fantasy-league trades here.

Giles, by the way, also missed 21 games last season with an assortment of injuries. And he hit .262 with 11 homers, 60 RBIs, 97 runs and a .728 OPS while playing 31 games more than Chipper.

Chipper: .324-26-86 with 1.005 OPS in 110 games.

Giles: .262-11-60 with .728 OPS in 141 games.

One has full no-trade protection, is 33 years old, hasn’t been healthy for a full season since 2003, is guaranteed $22 mill over next two seasons (and likely headed to the Hall of Fame in a Braves uni someday), and as far as anybody I’ve talked to knows, doesn’t have any teams calling the Braves inquiring about picking up his salary, much less sending them any talent back in a trade.

The other is 27, will make $5.5-6 mill next year, and has several teams interested in trading for him and giving the Braves talent in return. And plays a position where the Braves have some replacements ready to step in.

By David O'Brien

November 11, 2006 12:39 PM | Link to this

Good points about Glavine, Robert.

By Lew

November 11, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this

Robert-I agree with you about Glavine. How many people would pass up an extra $3mil or $4mil? Not many, I expect. I agree with you on Reagan, too. Great? Well maybe the stylist who dyed his hair.

By BB FAN

November 11, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

*Robert, *

Do you honestly think Nixon could have done the same job or better than Cox has? If so, that’s ludicrous.

Cox has had a lot of talent over the years, including 3 potential Hall OF Fame starters. I won’t argue with you about that. There’s a few potential Hall OF Fame hitters as well. However, good power pitching beats good hitting in the playoffs 99% of the time.

And the Braves did not have power pitching to dominate the playoffs. Maddux and Glavine are obviously not power pitchers. Only Smoltz is.

There were a number of times the Braves hitters were shut down. Cox has no control over that.

You always say it was wrong for Cox to bring Wohlers in the 8th in ‘96. Well, it’s easy to say that after the fact. But if Wohlers would have thrown a fastball and struck him out, it would have been a great move. It’s easy to second guess.

A manager has to play the guys that he has oon his team. Cox has made some dumb moves over the years. Keeping Maddux in for the 8th in 99 WS game 1 is one of them. However, a manager has to go with his gut. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.

And the playoffs are a crapshoot. Any time you double the number of teams that make the playoffs, it increases the probability of upsets. Then make the first round a 5 game series, it becomes a crapshoot.

By BB FAN

November 11, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

Robert,

You make a very good point about Glavine. I still root for him except when he plays against the Braves. He is one of the most fan friendly players in BB, even though fans aren’t always so nice to him.

I just wonder if he regrets leaving for the extra few mill. His numbers in NY have not been great. Though, he had a solid year in ‘06. And he pitched well in the post season which he had not done for the Braves in a little while.

By Head Coach

November 11, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this

Well , if Sheffield is worth three pitching prospects. Andruw is worth four prospects and the interested team would have to also negotiate a new long term contract in the 20 million a season range before getting him in a trade…….ITS JUST NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

By Metropolitan Man

November 11, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this

I didnt know all players were aspiring to be the 1st male Ophrah. I couldnt figure out why you guys were so mad at Glavine until now. Its not the money factor, its the nonsense comments he makes on the reason for not signing a contract. He is a greedy bum becasue you guys got the hometown discount now he is trying to hold NY hostage. Send him to the braves, that way he’ll only win 3.

By GM Wannabe

November 11, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this

Nathan: I agree with you on your blog about AJ (what Gammons said regarding 10/5 status). If JS approaches AJ privately and asks what team/teams he would be interested in signing long term, I think a deal could be workes out.It sure is sad to get rid of such a great player due to salary. I wish JS could trade Hudson and use that money to re-sign AJ.

By Head Coach

November 11, 2006 01:16 PM | Link to this

If the Braves are looking for more pitching…. and they are. Mark Mulder would be worth the risk. He’s a big 6-6 lefty with seven seasons and career record of 103-57 with a 4.11 ERA . He is coming off surgery for a partially torn rotator cuff which was successful and he just might be in the Braves budget for a one or two year contract.

By Head Coach

November 11, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this

Traded ? Giles , yes. Horacio , maybe. Andruw , almost impossible. Hudson , ARE YOU FREAKING NUTS !!!

By Robert

November 11, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this

“And the playoffs are a crapshoot. “

The playoffs can definately be turned into a crapshoot

Sometimes events play out so that one or another series in the playoffs ends up being a crapshoot (St Louis vs the Mets this year being a good example)

But, going in, the playoffs NEED NOT be a crapshoot, and certainly should not be treated as a crapshoot

This is the flaw. Cox takes a stronger team in with the attitude of “oh heck it’s just a crapshoot.” And guess what, by doing so, he turns it into one. (he then subsequantly loads the dice in favor of the other team by making in-game decisions, making matters worse) And now the weaker team is at least on a par - and if they go on a mission, which Atlanta players dont seem to do come October - then we’re toast

Even IF a particular playoff series becopmes a crapshoot, you can not adopt that attitude and expect to win. After all, if it’s just luck, then why try harder? Why find any motivation to “go on a mission”

By KC

November 11, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

Robert: The other day I entered this post:

Robert: A friend of mine majored in philosophy. Of course we all teased him about majoring in unemployment! LOL! But he once told me that there is a theory that asserts that everything in the universe has an opposite.

Robert, I think I’ve found me opposite! It seems to me that you and are on polar opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to how we see things. I would ask you for your political views just to test my theory, but I don’t want to drag that into the forum. But it’s fun arguing with you.

After reading your views on Ronald Reagan… it’s official! You and I are opposites. =)

By Head Coach

November 11, 2006 01:31 PM | Link to this

Robert….Cox never said the playoffs are a crapshoot. John Schuerholz said it and he is right. Thats why he is the General Manager of the Atlanta Braves and you might not want to quit your day job my friend.

By KC

November 11, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

Robert… I meant of course to say “I think I’ve found my opposite”.

By Metropolitan Man

November 11, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this

NEW YORK — One day after filing for free agency, Tom Glavine took the official step of declining his contractual option, thereby releasing himself from the Mets roster for 2007, and underscoring his indecision about his immediate future and the uncertainty of the Mets’ offseason. The filing was done provisionally to protect Glavine’s rights in case he eventually does decide to leave the Mets, but in no way is an indication that he intends to. Filing is simply a procedural move that any player eligible for free agency and not signed for the ensuing season is advised to make.

Indeed, Glavine said Thursday night that he isn’t close to deciding for whom he wants to pitch the 2007 season, which could be his last. Speaking by telephone from his home outside Atlanta, he indicated his decision probably won’t be made until late this month.

“I pretty much told [Mets COO Jeff Wilpon] that I won’t hang him up on this, that I’ll probably let him know before the winter meetings,” Glavine said.

The winter meetings, scheduled for Dec. 4-7, begin two weeks after the last day the Mets can exercise their option on his contract and force Glavine to return.

“It was a foregone conclusion that I wouldn’t exercise my option [for $7.5 million], just like I don’t expect them to exercise theirs [for $14 million],” Glavine said.

If he were to return, his salary would be a figure in between the two. But Glavine said money isn’t any kind of determining factor, and that, as he has said since Spring Training, family considerations — proximity and convenience — are.

He also noted that he has no sense of the desires of the Braves, the only club other than the Mets with which he would sign. Until he filed Thursday, Glavine and his representatives were prohibited from speaking with any club other than the Mets. And until the free agent filing period ends Saturday, they are prohibited from talking with any club other than the Mets about contract terms.

Glavine was so torn between the Mets and Braves in December 2002 that after he agreed to sign with the Mets, he contacted the Braves and was prepared to reverse himself. He acknowledged as much during Spring Training after Braves general manager John Schuerholz disclosed that scenario, straining the relationship between the two.

Whether that strain, on-going austerity and Glavine’s 41st birthday — in March — are issues for the Braves is an unknown, as is Glavine’s preference — even to him.

“I’m a little surprised that I have so little sense of what I’m going to do,” Glavine said. “I’m listing all the positives for [the Mets and Braves] in columns and trying to assess what I have as educatedly as I can. I don’t want to jump at any one thing, and I’m trying not to be overly influenced by how much I’m enjoying myself being home now.

“The Mets have been great about it. They’ve left me alone. The only time I’ve talked to them recently is when there was a report that I was going to sign a two-year contract. They’ve been patient with me, and I appreciate that. I know they need an answer.”

What the Mets don’t need is a “no thank you” from the pitcher who won 15 games last season. They won 24 of his 32 starts, too.

Now after reading that, what is the reason for not signing?????? This guy is becoming an old stale joke real quick. I guess he dosent know Omar will disregard him just like he did the free agent catchers last year. They tried to hold Omar for more maoney and we ended up with Loduca. Make a move Glavine!

By Head Coach

November 11, 2006 01:38 PM | Link to this

Ronald Reagan has a Presidential Library and an Aircraft Carrier named after him. He ended the cold war. Robert my friend , your stupidity is simply stupendous.

By KC

November 11, 2006 01:39 PM | Link to this

Any NBA fans here?

I was just looking at the standings, and I’m going to go way out on a limb here with a couple of predictions…

I predict that the Hawks will not finish the season atop the Eastern Conference, and the Jazz will not finish atop the Western Conference. Furthermore, I predict that the Mavs and Suns won’t finish in the Western Conference cellar.

Hey… I’m not afraid to make the bold predictions!

By nathan

November 11, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this

DOB

I was thinkin the same thing when Phillips said that. Maybe that’s why he isn’t a GM anymore. LOL!

Gammons I trust, Rosenthal seems to have pretty decent insight, just about everybody else on ANY of the national channels, and (or) websites, seems to be guessing, using the same logic that I (or any fantasy team owner) use. It’s all for TV ratings. That’s why the “rumors” page on most sites are pay only. And why, during the “hot stove”, ESPN will alway wait until “later” in the program to show Peter Gammons’ reports. Just to string us fans DESPERATE for somthing to talk about.

Lew

I’m glad we’re “cool”. I was in a goofy mood (sometimes that doesn’t mix with a p*ssy mood!), just tryin to have some fun, like always.

On the note of Andruw, let me put it this way. I DOUBT HE GETS MOVED. I don’t think teams are going to give a LOT up for him, when 1 year from now he can be had, for only money (no prospects/players). In the same breath, there is NO WAY JS MOVES HIM, unless he gets the farm for him. I don’t see that happening, so we can agree he aint going anywhere, logically speaking. My argument is that you and others are PURELY using Andruw’s and Boras’ statement that he won’t accept a trade, and now you give me the story of JS saying it’s unlikely in Choptalk. Since when is JS taken at his word, if he even discussed personnel moves to begin with? According to David Justice, back in 1997 JS just weeks if not DAYS before the Lofton trade assured David he WASN’T GOING ANYWHERE. Now granted Justice wasn’t a 10/5 guy, but….

All I’m saying is, TALK is TALK. If the right deal for the Braves and JS came up, he would TALK to Andruw/Boras about it. If that said deal was GOOD for Andruw/Boras then, more than likely, Andruw/Boras would ACCEPT IT.

That’s all I’m saying…..NEVER SAY NEVER. ANYTHING is possible.

By Robert

November 11, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this

I agree KC.

Appreciate that we can recognize the differences and remain civil.

Head Coach - Whatever you say. Have you ever given a half a thought to WHY a GM or a manager might publicly espouse the “playoffs are a crapshoot” philosophy?

“The playoffs are a crapshoot” is an EXCUSE- to cover their behinds before the fact by saying that the playoffs are a crapshoot. That way, if the team flops, they arent to blame

Suppose JS in 1993 (and 94, and 95, and 96, and 97, and 99) says the truth -we have an awesome team - Hall of Fame rotation, HOFers and all-stars all up and down the roster - My aunt sally could get this team into the playoffs and we’re doing something wrong if we dont win it all - Do that and “pull a Braves” in the playoffs and there’s gonna be a whole buncha fans looking at you like “well?”

But if the playoffs are a crapshoot, then

If the free agent aquisition flops, the GM isnt to blame. If the manager hits the number 2 hitter leadoff and lets the mop up man close games, it’s not his fault, because the playoffs are a crapshoot. Hey who even cares if you get to the playoffs, after all, what do they prove, theyre just a crapshoot, right?

A LOT of GM’s and managers espouse this philosophy (at least in public). Guess what. They all want the same thing - an excuse that gives em job security

Doesnt make the philosophy true. The fact that the Braves leadership and management has successfully sold this bunk to a large fraction of their fans is - well, GREAT - for THEM - Nothing better than 40000 deliriously happy Braves fans waving their $10 pennants, munching their $5 hot dogs and sipping their $5 drinks while the 50 cent manager puts Reitsma into another close game next August

By KC

November 11, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

Metro Man:

As a Braves fan, I’m still not sure I want Glavine back. His ERA was slightly below 4.00 this year. Now these days, that’s well above average, but I’m not sure it’s worth what Glavine will be paid next season. Even if Glavine would sign with ATL for an 8 million-one year deal… I’m not sure that’s in the Braves’ best interest.

In Horacio Ramirez’s 12 healthy starts this season, he posted a 3.89 ERA (almost identical to Glavine’s). That’s a little deceiving though because in 9 of those 12 starts, HoRam was absolutely lights-out (5-1 with a 1.70 ERA), though he struggled in the other 3 starts, which hiked his ERA).

Anyway, my point is this: I’m just not sure that Glavine has anything on Horacio Ramirez, and even if Glavine were willing to issue a hometown discount to return to the Braves, he’d still cost at least 5 million more per season than HoRam. Yes, even at 41, Glavine is less injury prone than Horacio, but keep in mind that HoRam’s slot is at the bottom (in the 4 or 5 slot) of this rotation. Should he go down, between Davies, Cormier, and even Villarreal… the Braves have several options for a fill-in 5th starter.

Not there’s always the added advantage in signing Glavine that it would leave the rival Mets rotation completely decimated, but I think that would be a far greater advantage 12 years ago (when there were still just 2 divisions and no Wild Card) than it would be today.

I dunno… something in my heart wants Glavine back, but my head is telling me it’s not worth it.

By Robert

November 11, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this

“He ended the cold war”

Um, why dont you go back and look at Reagan’s military spending record.

Those were different times. The cold war was a product of fears that in hindsight have been shown to have been false. In that regard, we cant say that the men who started it and perpetuated it were evil, or stupid, or bad intentioned. On the other hand, most of them followed the lead of others, and didnt step back and think

The Cold War ended in the late 80’s with the dissolution of the Soviet state and bloc. Reagan, however, did as much to perpetuate it as any president before him

Head Coach - Why dont you tell us about how well Reaganomics works. And then you can follow up with an essay about the health benefits of smoking crack cocaine. And then you can finish by telling us how Bobby Cox is the greatest manager of all time

By nathan

November 11, 2006 02:00 PM | Link to this

Head Coach

Robert….Cox never said the playoffs are a crapshoot. John Schuerholz said it and he is right.

You’re wrong my friend. I’d need more than the two hands and ten fingers I’ve got to count the times that I have personally heard/witnessed (on tv of course), Mr. Cox say those exact words. Believe me. I’m LOSER enough to watch ALL of the post game press conferences in the ESPN era. Win or lose. He has said FAR TOO OFTEN.

He says it in interview before the season starts. He’s said in intervies DURING the season. He says it going into the post season series. And more often than not. He says it AFTER the Braves LOSE a series. He even tried to DOWNPLAY the one WS victory that the Braves had, by calling that lucky, “cuz these things are all a crapshoot”.

Maybe the PROBLEM is that the Gm AND the manager think that way.

Ask Dombrowski and Leyland if they feel that way.

By nathan

November 11, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

DOB

After reading Metropolitan Man’s post, I’ve got the “gut” that Glavine’s coming back. Unless JS has ZERO interest in him. Sounds like he wants to be HOME.

I’m real curious how this moves along once the Braves can “talk” to him.

By Head Coach

November 11, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

Robert , dont quit your day job. The hamburgers need you.

By KC

November 11, 2006 02:12 PM | Link to this

nathan: I agree with you that some of that “Andruw won’t accept a trade” talk being pushed out there by Boras/Andruw could very well be partial posturing (though I think Andruw sincerely has no desire to leave right now).

I believe that if both sides came to the conclusion this winter that Andruw will be out of the Braves’ price range, and JS approached Boras/Andruw with the right trade possibility (a winning team with a fat wallet)… there’s a chance that Andruw would relent and accept a deal to a team capable of immediately working out a huge long-term deal.

I think it’s highly unlikely, but not impossible. In order for Andruw to be traded, several things would have to take place…

1 - The Braves and Boras/Andruw would both have to the conclusion that the Braves simply won’t be able to re-sign Andruw.

2 - JS would have to find a deal worth making (and any trade proposal would have to come from a select number of teams to which Andruw might be willing to accept a trade).

3 - JS would have to talk Andruw into accepting the trade.

I’m not convinced that there are no circumstances under which Andruw could be traded… but all three of the things I just mentioned would have to take place, and the odds of that are not really worth mentioning.

So in the end… yes, Andruw will be here through ‘07.

By nathan

November 11, 2006 02:18 PM | Link to this

I don’t consider my self to be Democratic or Republican. I try and vote for the person whom I “trust” the most. Which often leads me to not even want to vote ALL TOGETHER. I’m not a big fan of NEGATIVE compaigns, so by that fact alone MOST politicians bug the living hell out of me.

I’m not here to discuss whether Reagan was a great president or not. But wasn’t it his administration the COMPLETELY ignore the AIDS epidemic when it first broke. Seems to me of all the good that he may have done, THAT is enough to question his ETHICS. Of course there is nothing in stone anywhere that shows that any of it could’ve been slowed down, had they payed attention. But it seems to me, that I recall seeing a program/documentory at one point where somebody within his staff said somthing to the effect of “it’s the gay plague, let it run it’s course”.

Pretty “old school” homophobe, not to mention that it was effecting many others, in the day and age before we took care of blood, for transfusions and what not.

Anyhow, I was young when, he was in office, (3rd grade when he got shot?), and even in his second term, I was a junior high kid. What the hell did I care about what the president was doin?

All I know is what I read, and what people tell me. Quite frankly, I enjoy watching you guys (Robert vs. the World) argue about Bobby Cox rather than dead ex-presidents.

By Metropolitan Man

November 11, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

If JS cant do to A. Jones what the stankees did to Sheff, then you will get nothing in return. Just dont get caught napping.

By nathan

November 11, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this

Robert

I normally don’t agree with a lot of what you say, but your 1:55 post, is about as DEAD ON as I could’ve put it.

Well done.

By nathan

November 11, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

Forgot to add this to my last post.

Also, I said somthing to this effect last night or the night before on the other blog. It’s all starting to jumble together.

But if the playoffs are nothing more than a crapshoot. Maybe we should spend spring training working on shooting crap. Cuz everything else we do “doesn’t matter”.

I understand that “anything can happen”. I can accept that vs. calling the whole postseason a crapshoot. There is so many things to factor in. Players health, players mental state of mind, personal issues, other guys giving a little more effort.

If I was on the Cardinals, I’d be P*SSED if I hears somebody call the playoffs a crapshoot. THE TEAM THAT PLAYS BETTER ALWAYS WINS. Not neccessarily the BEST TEAM ALWAYS WINS. There was many times where I believe that the Braves were the best team in the NL if not all of baseball. But you know what? We can call it choking, underachieving, playing stupid. However you so choose to describe it, it all equals the same thing EVERY YEAR THAT WE LOST:

THE OTHER TEAM PLAYED BETTER THAN WE DID!!!!!

By Truth

November 11, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this

Yep, that Giles dude really sucks since he got off the “roids”!

By Robert

November 11, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

The scene opens with a view of the football field. The camera pans the field and then down the tunnel and into the locker room, where the team is gathered in a huddle around coach Rockne, who is standing on top of a plastic folding chair

Rockne - “Men, we’ve accomplished a lot this season. We went 11-2 in the regular season, including wins against The Little Sisters of the Poor, The Nuns of Acapulco, and East Uganda State. Now it’s the big game, for all the marbles. But men, let’s face it. This game’s a crapshoot. You know, at the end of the day, we might just have to acknowledge that they were on a mission. Things might bounce their way. We can always hold our heads high and proud, because of all we’ve accomplished. Chipper had another 1000 yd season. Andru extended his season of double digit sacks. We had a rookie who never played before step in and block a punt. Dont worry boys. If we dont win it this year, we’ll be back next year, because we only play one ranked team in the regular season again next year. Now go win one for the Gipper”

By BB FAN

November 11, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

Just because a team has a few Hall of Famers does not mean they will win a World Series.

It happens all the time…a team nobody thought would do anything wins the World Series. Hell, it even happened this year. Who would have thought the Cardinals could beat the Mets and then beat the Tigers? Hell, who would have thought the Tigers were going to beat the Yankees in the first round? That’s 3 upsets in just one post season.

It takes more than talent and a good manager. It takes luck, and team chemistry as well. It’s not easy to win a WS. Only 1 in 30 team wins it each year. So 29 teams have to “lose” every year.

That’s why there are so many upsets over the years in sports. The best team doesn’t always win. Look at the Oakland A’s of the late 80’s and early 90’s. Talent upon talent and they won 1 WS ring. The reds of the 70’s had how many HOFers? And they won only 2 WS rings. The Mets of the late 80’s were as talented as they come but only won in ‘86. And that was at the expense of the Red Sox. The Phillies had a lot of talent from the mid 70’s to the mid 80’s but only won it all in ‘80. The Yankees have had more talent than anybody from 2001 to 2006 and they have no rings to show for it. The Indians of the 90’s were young and talented but never won the WS. That ‘95 Indians team was one of the most talented teams ever but our Braves beat them. I could go on and on, but I think I have made my point. Only one team can win the WS each year.

The Braves had some very good teams over the last 16 years. But the Yankees have had (bought) better teams than the Braves. Toronto was one of the best teams in the early 90’s. The Marlins bought a team in 1997 then traded it away for all those great players that won in 2003.

At least the Braves won in ‘95. That’s why players are so excited to win a championship because it doesn’t happen many times.

By Robert

November 11, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

“THE OTHER TEAM PLAYED BETTER THAN WE DID!!!!!”

And whose responsibility is it to see that the team plays as well as it can?

The MANAGER’s - In the end, that is his ONLY task

Nathan, you and I agree on a lot more than you care to admit. I’m a little older (was in 9th or 10th grade when Reagan got shot). You see the same things, you just havent lost all hope for the team yet, like myself and your friend Brad have. Give Cox time, and he will reach your breaking point too

One of your comments I found interesting - about shooting more crap during spring training. I dunno about that, but when it comes to SPEWING crap, Cox does it at every press conference from day 1 of spring trainging to the first wednesday or so in October

By KC

November 11, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this

nathan, Robert:

I have been very politically active for years now. I used to regularly write op-eds for the Sunday paper as well as blogs and political web content. However, I have taken great care not to get into any political discussions here because frankly, I view chatting in this forum as a way to take a break from politics.

But Nathat, I just want to answer to your point about the Reagan administration in regard to AIDS and your “ETHICS” comment. There are problems facing society that almost no one realizes the importance of until it turns into a monster. That’s why there’s all this talk about a “pre-9/11 mindset” and a “post-9/11 mindset”.

It might be fair to say that the Reagan administration didn’t pay as much attention to AIDS as they would have if they understood the global epidemic it would become. Let’s face it… there wasn’t a whole lot of talk about it at all in the 80’s. It really wasn’t until Magic Johnson’s announcement that it came center-stage in America. We can all look at any administration and find things we think should have been dealt with more (or less) aggressively. I don’t remember anyone in any elected office on either side of the political isle giving any significant attention or a voice to the AIDS problem at that time.

As for Reagan’s “ethics”… this was a man who believed that being President was a servant’s job, not a position of power and privilege. Even though he was the President, he revered the presidency. In Ronald Reagan’s 8 years in office, he never once removed his jacket in the oval office out of respect for the office and the Presidency. Contrast that to other presidents who didn’t have a problem getting a BJ in the Oval Office.

And the reality is that the “peace through strength” philosophy employed by Reagan kept the pressure on the Soviet Union until it ultimately collapsed on itself.

As for “Reaganomics”… inflation and unemployment dropped substantially over the course of Reagan’s presidency.

By David O'Brien

November 11, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

Metro Man, you really thank Braves fans would be pleased if the Braves traded Andruw for three pitching prospects, and no proven players? No, most wouldn’t.

And it “only” cost Detroit $28 mill over two seasons to sign Sheff to an extension. Andruw will likely require three to four times that amount over 4-5 years in an extension. Teams know that.

By David O'Brien

November 11, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this

Oh, and Nathan and others: Drop the political discussion. This isn’t the place for it. Period. End of story.

By Robert

November 11, 2006 03:25 PM | Link to this

“Look at the Oakland A’s of the late 80’s and early 90’s. Talent upon talent and they won 1 WS ring”

And those A’s teams were managed by the “genius” who is 2 for 13

(Admittedly better than mister one for umpteen)

A lot of luck is made. Team chemistry is made. It’s about philosophy and outlook, and heart and desire. Preparation. Being ready to play their best and then going out and doing it

Some teams play their best and dont make the playoffs. No fault to their managers there

Some teams make the playoffs despite not playing their best. They got away with something

Some teams make the playoffs and then dont play their best. Ultimately, it is the fault of the manager.

By David O'Brien

November 11, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this

And Nathan, that story was inaccurate in one regard, at least to my understanding: Braves can’t talk to Glavine until after Mets officially decline their option on him, the 20th. Not tomorrow, like other free agents.

By Robert

November 11, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this

“It might be fair to say that the Reagan administration didn’t pay as much attention to AIDS as they would have if they understood the global epidemic it would become”

Come on dude. I’m not saying that any other administration wouldve handled it much differently, but there’s only a few circumstances under which the Reagan administration wouldve payed more attention to the burgeoning AIDS epidemic

1.If there was as much money in it as in selling weapons

2.If the epidemic were affecting upper middle class American Caucasians and others who vote GOP instead of homosexuals, hemophiliacs, Jamaicans, and poor Africans

By Robert

November 11, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this

Sorry DOB - had one more comment posted before I saw your cease and desist order

KC - I’d be more than happy to have a political discussion - let’s not do it here

By nathan

November 11, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this

DOB

and anyone else out there.

I ABSOLUTELY APPOLOGIZE for involving myself in any of the political talk. I bit my toungue for most of it, and wish I would’ve continued biting it. That’s what’s wonderful about sports. It can and should take our minds off of whatever else is goin on in the world, be it personal and close to home or world wide.

The two things that can UNITE people of different beliefs (religious, sexuality, and or politcs), are sports and music (or any form of entertainment).

This is why I get disturbed when celebrities (Alec Baldwin), musicians (Dixie Chicks/U2) and Athletes & Actors (Jeff Suppan and Michael J. Fox) use their “pedestal” to preech their point of view. Sorry to single out those few names. I’m not going to let you know which way I lean on ANY of their opinions - as to respect DOB’s request (which is the correct request, btw), but those were the names that came to mind with the recent elections and headlines. I have buddies that refuse to support any of entertainers that stray from their politcal beliefs and to me that is PURE BS!

Arts and Entertainment (which sports fall under, IMO) should be kept completely seperate from anything political, at ALL TIMES.

Again, I appologize to anybody I offended by either my stance (as vague as it was), or by the mere mention of politics on this blog.

Let’s get back to baseball talk. I don’t have to work today. So I’ve got ALL DAY to go round and round on the same crap we’ve been discussing or better yet. (GASP!) Somthing new!

By KC

November 11, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

Have the Braves won only one World Series because they were “chokers”?

There are only two reasons for losing a game or a series: 1-You underachieve, or 2-The other team is simply better.

In most of the Braves post-season losses, I believe the opposing team that defeated them was simply better than they were or were better suited for post-season play. There are, in my view, 3 exceptions: 1996, 1998 and 2002.

In 1996, an extremely talented and well balanced Braves team won the first 2 games in New York, before dropping 4 straight. Inexcusable.

In 1998, the Braves had arguably (1-5) the greatest starting rotation of all time that year: Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Neagle (who won 20 games with a 2.98 ERA that year), and Kevin Millwood (who won 15 games as their 5th starter and posted a solid ERA). They truly had five #1 starters to go along with a solid offense and a decent bullpen. What happened? I have no idea.

I think 2002 was Atlanta’s best opportunity to win a World Series since 1995. They had a Maddux, Glavine, and Millwood (who was brilliant that season) atop their rotation, a solid offense, and the best bullpen in baseball. What Happened? Three words: Tom Glavine meltdown. He personally gift wrapped 2 of the 5 games in that series for the Giants. All they needed was one mediocre start from Glavine to sweep that series or at least win it in 4. You can hang the Braves failure that year on Glavine and Glavine alone.

In 2001 and 2003, the Braves lost to teams that I don’t think were better, but were better suited to the post-season.

Good power pitchers (assuming they have mental toughness) are better suited for October baseball because they can reach down for a little extra. The adrenaline helps them and their pitches have just a little more bite in October.

In contrast, guys like Glavine and Maddux cannot reach down for anything extra, and adrenaline is often their enemy. If they throw the ball a couple MPH harder, they just wind up sacrificing movement and location, which of course are the primary tools of trade for a finesse pitcher. Finesse pitchers usually post better regular season numbers than they’re able to put up in October.

In ’01 and ’03, Smoltz was in the bullpen, and we didn’t have a stud power pitcher to match up against Schilling or Johnson in ’01 or Prior and Wood in ’02… so we lost.

Sinkerballers like Hudson and Hampton are in a third category somewhere in between “power” and “finesse”. Would rather have a great power pitcher than a sinkerballer in October, but I’ll take a sinkerballer over a finesse pitcher in the post-season. All in all, if Hudson bounces back (as I believe he will)… I feel pretty good about that big 3 (Smoltz, Hudson, Hampton) heading into next October.

By nathan

November 11, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

DOB

That’s too bad (I guess), on the Glavine thing. That was how I understood it too. That the Braves had to wait until the 20th. But I mighta got that info from you the other day. LOL!

What I mean by too bad, is the fact that he sounds like he’s “in deep thought” about MAYBE taking less money to be at home with his family. If the period for the Braves to talk to him began Monday, maybe a little sweet talk and reconciliation from JS could go a long way for a HOMETOWN DISCOUNT. Because IMO, if he can be had for around 8-10 million (especially if they backload it or defer some of it), MAKE THE MOVE! As opposed to getting in a bidding war with the Mets. That probably doesn’t bode well for us, nor would it be as good of a “deal”.

But I’m afraid that if the Braves have to wait until the 20th, that just might leave enough time for the Mets to OVERBID for his services, and with Tom being as big a part of the players union, he might feel obligated to take the money. But IMO, being a 20 year veteran (or whatever it is - gotta be about that, 1988?), he’s earned the right to “settle” for less without getting guff from the union, don’t you think?

By KC

November 11, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this

Agreed.

Read my lips… no more politics!

LOL! Seriously, I’ll gladly obtain from any more political talk.

By KC

November 11, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

nathan:

“especially if they backload it or defer some of it”

Good Lord Nathan… are you suggesting that the Braves offer him a multi-year deal?????

He’s 76 years old!!!

By nathan

November 11, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this

KC

In 1998, KEVIN BROWN happened to the Braves. Oh and one of the GREATEST post season pitchers of all time. No, silly not Roger Clemens. Nope. Not Pedro Martinez. Nope not even Randy Johnson…….awww, come on you remember.

The ever so unhittable: STERLING FRICKIN HITCHCOCK! Talk about a “one hit wonder”. What did that guy do before that series and what has he done since. NOTTA!

As to your 3 categories of pitchers. I guess that’s what made Kevin Brown so damn unhittable in 97 and 98. POWER AND SINK. Pretty deadly combination. I seem to remember the Braves (along with everybody else over those three seasons (1996-1998), swinging at sinkers (splitters - whatever!) zipping in at about 90-92 MPH and DROPPING OF THE TABLE and ending up NOWHERE near the strike zone. At the time he was a free agent (when he signed with the Dodgers) I though JS was a moron for not going after this guy. I guess about 20 back problems later JS again was right and I was wrong. But if I’m not mistaking, he (Kevin Brown) is from the Atlanta area, isn’t he?

By nathan

November 11, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this

KC

In 1998, KEVIN BROWN happened to the Braves. Oh and one of the GREATEST post season pitchers of all time. No, silly not Roger Clemens. Nope. Not Pedro Martinez. Nope not even Randy Johnson…….awww, come on you remember.

The ever so unhittable: STERLING FRICKIN HITCHCOCK! Talk about a “one hit wonder”. What did that guy do before that series and what has he done since. NOTTA!

As to your 3 categories of pitchers. I guess that’s what made Kevin Brown so damn unhittable in 97 and 98. POWER AND SINK. Pretty deadly combination. I seem to remember the Braves (along with everybody else over those three seasons (1996-1998), swinging at sinkers (splitters - whatever!) zipping in at about 90-92 MPH and DROPPING OF THE TABLE and ending up NOWHERE near the strike zone. At the time he was a free agent (when he signed with the Dodgers) I though JS was a moron for not going after this guy. I guess about 20 back problems later JS again was right and I was wrong. But if I’m not mistaking, he (Kevin Brown) is from the Atlanta area, isn’t he?

By Robert

November 11, 2006 04:15 PM | Link to this

“In most of the Braves post-season losses, I believe the opposing team that defeated them was simply better than they were or were better suited for post-season play”

Dude you think the Phillies were better than the Braves in 1993?

That the Expos were better than the Braves in 1994?

That the Marlins were better than the Braves in 1997?

You say you dont know what happened in 1998. I know what happened. A smug arrogant team adopted the Bobby Cox philosophy. As a result, by the time they realized they should go ahead and show up for the playoffs, it was over, even though they did have nice clean diapers on and only threw one bad pitch in giving up all the Padre runs

By J-MAN

November 11, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this

D.O.B. what are the chances that if Smoltz retires after next season that we’ll use the money he pulls in to help resign Andrew and would Chipper rework his contract again to help keep Andrew. Also I haven’t heard anything new brewing such as trades or Free agents let me know if you have heard on anything lately on the big free agents and on the Japanese pitcher’s status on the bidding front.

By Robert

November 11, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

I still dont buy the excuse that one great or hot pitcher is enough to sink the Braves every year but our three to five great starters never seem to be enough

There’s an underlying REASON why it’s always the OTHER guys jumping up and biting US in the behind rather than the other way around

It’s the philosophy of donkeyball

Let’s go back one more time to this issue of the supposedly high opinion that everyone inside baseball has of Cox

Let’s suppose that I am a GM or a manager of another team and I think Cox is a buffoon. Am I going to say so? HELL NO.

I dont want to take a chance that something I say might finally result in the Braves finding some collective motivation to hustle - and I ceratinly dont want to teach the enemy everything.

Heck - If I’m in that position I go on and on about how GREAT Cox is. Besides everything else, it makes ME look all that much better when my team wipes him out in the playoffs

I can just see it now. Some team loses to the Braves in the playoffs and afterwards their manager says “Yup, that Cox is probably the dumbest man to ever manage a baseball team. But then again, as many stumbles and bumbles and mistakes as he made, and as unprepared as he had his team, I managed to lose to him”

By KC

November 11, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

nathan:

Areed. Kevin Brown was a buzzsaw. But the Braves had the guy that is to this day the most prolific post-season starter of all time, John Smoltz, plus Maddux, Glavine, Neagle, and Millwood.

I’m going to put 1998 in the category of inexcusable losses. But again, there are only 3 Braves seasons I would place in that column, and Tom Glavine was solely to blame for one of them.

By Robert

November 11, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this

Dawgs 37 Auburn 15

Insects 7 UNC 0 (choking back laughter - imPRESSive)

By nathan

November 11, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this

KC

I guess if the guy wants to pitch 2 more years and the Braves wanted to give him 2 years. Yeah. That could be considered a muti-year deal.

In my mind (which I also indicated in the post), I was thinking to defer the money. That makes more sense to me. As sentimental as Glavine may (maybe not sentimental - more like staying close to home), I’m sure if he’s going to pitch one more or two more years, he doesn’t want to do it at the expense of not allowing the team the flexibility to put a winning team on the field.

But my guess is (and I’d be willing to bet he was paying attention to what caused us to fail this year), that his ego would cause him to think that maybe all the Braves need to get back in it next year, would be his services.

We all talk about players wanting the money. Sure they do. And they are entitled to do so. But I think all they really want is feel wanted, no let me rephrase that. NEEDED. Look at Sheffield. He was gonna make fine money this year. He was gonna be on a team that has as good a chance as any to come out hoisting the CRAPSHOOT TROPHY. If he’s still as good as he thinks he is. Why not play out the contract and sign a new deal after next season? I’ll tell ya why. The Yankees were set to have Abreu in RF and try and use Sheffield at 1B. THEY DIDN’T NEED HIM AT THE POSITION HE FEELS IS HIS BEST. Of course he’s probably right about being a “fish out of water” at 1B.

But I bet if you took a poll of Major Leagures and asked them: “We know you aren’t a 1B, but we the Yankees (of the 200 million dollar payroll - who ALWAY try to win), think you’re capable of playing 1B. Not to mention we LOVE your bat in the middle of our lineup. Whaddya say….are you interested?”

You don’t think at least (if not more) than HALF of all big leagures would say. “I’m Game”.

Just a question. I could be way off.

Of course the other explanation is that Sheff is just a CRYBABY that every two or three years feels the need to diss his employers and assum the GRASS iS GREENER on the other side.

I think he just needs a hug.

By KC

November 11, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

Robert:

To be honest, I would have to go back and look at some numbers to speak intelligently about ‘93. For some reason that season doesn’t stand out to me as much as ‘91 or ‘92 do. I’ll have to refresh my memory on that one.

Dude, there was no post-season in 1994.

As for 1997… no, I’ll grant you that one as well. They probably should have beaten the Marlins.

By J-Man

November 11, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

KC I agree with you on the 96 and 2002 braves especially 2002 since the Yankees and A’s were already elminated and all we had to do is win 1 out of 3 and we loose all three. But in 98 it wouldn’t have mattered because the Yankees would have beat anyone out there. And Robert I know you don’t like Cox but them losses were the blams of poor hitting and Glavine and Maddux not showing up not bad coaching the only one you can bad coaching is in 96 with the leyritz homer but really you can’t even blame cox for that bacause that was Wholers fault Cox had his team in a position to win.

By KC

November 11, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this

Sheffield hasn’t been the same since the steroids testing started. Coincidence?

By KC

November 11, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

Nathan:

I reeeeeally can’t picture the Braves offering Glavine anything more than a one year deal (if that).

He might get a 1 year-8 million offer… take it or leave it. If he really wants to finish his career as a Braves (badly enough to sacrifice $ just a bit), then he might be back next year, but he won’d get a 2 year offer in ATL.

By Robert

November 11, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

Brown beat us in 1997. We didnt have Millwood, but had the other four. 1997 was inexcusable

1998 was even more inexcusable - Didnt expect the Braves to win the WS, because the 1998 Yankees go on the short list of greatest teams of all time - but it shoulda gone extra innings in game 7. Losing to the Padres was inexcusable

1996 was inexcusable - You are up 2-0. There is no reason to suddenly start using pitchers where they dont belong and thereby give a worthy opponent a chance at life.

1999 was inexcusable - Probably the most embarrassing wipeout of a pretender by a true champion ever seen in the WS - Thing is, if Cox has a frickin CLUE how to use his starters, the series is tied 2-2 after four games

1993 was inexcusable - The Phillies had a deep rotation led by Schilling (whose ERA was a not so stellar 4.02 that year) Their BEST starter that year was Mulholland. Some of their other starters were EX-BRAVES - Greene and Rivera - Is that not funny how some guys that arent even good enough to be Braves are suddenly good enough to BEAT THE BRAVES in October?

1994 - Tragic season for two reasons - One is that one of the five best seasons by a starter EVER didnt get finished. Two is that there was no postseason. If there had been, the “streak” wouldve ended right there - and maybe raised enough questions about Eeyore that 96 might not have gone unpunished. All because of the strike

1995 - A one hitter by the Braves and a bad pitch hit out by the Braves. Cox tried, but couldnt fork it up enough

2001-2005 are INexcusable - The ‘01 team shoudlve challenged for the WS. The others maybe not, but there’s not a team among them that really overachieved in going to the playoffs. Sometimes the competition folded. Sometimes good young players came up and played well. Often both. But to lose in the first round four years running? INexcusable.

Guys, the man pitched Reitsma in a deciding playoff game. If you need more proof than that that he is a complete forkin buffoon, lord help me

By Lew

November 11, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this

Go Dawgs! That was unexpected. This season may not be a total disaster, after all. I hope this is the Georgia team that shows up against Tech.

By Robert

November 11, 2006 04:46 PM | Link to this

If anyone on the Braves says “I’m game” they run the risk of being shot by Cox

By Robert

November 11, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this

The Hawks are 4-1. For the first time since Pete Maravich they have a true superstar who makes the whole team around him better

Before anyone has a seizure and starts calling me names, I know that Dominique scored a lot, had fancy moves, and thought himself the equal of Bird, Magic, and Isiah, and was a Dawg to boot. But he never made the team around him better

This is an exciting young team, people.

By David O'Brien

November 11, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this

The respect for the request is much appreciated.

By nathan

November 11, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this

KC

If I remember right in 1997 Smoltz didn’t fair so well. I seem to remember him getting hammered LATE in the game.

As for Maddux and Glavine. Sometimes they were on, sometimes they were off. As dominant as Maddux was from 1993 to 1995, he really never totally DOMINATED in the post season. Game 1 of the 1995 WS being the exception. But then again we are talking about the AL’s version of the Hack n Jack offense. I remember Lofton being on base a lot. But nobody else “adjusted” in that whole series. I take that back, I remember in one of the games in Cleveland in Maddux’s 2nd start Albert Belle took an outside pitch and drove into the RF bullpen. Other than that, they all just kept trying to KILL those changeups. But that is about the only series where BOTH Maddux and Glavine pitched very well. Strangely enough, we won the WS! Hmmm. Imagine that.

I’m sure I don’t really need to post these stats. But I’m going to. It just shows who “stepped up” and who hasn’t.

Tom Glavine

Career Reg Season Stats: 290 Wins - 191 losses with a 3.46 ERA

Career Post Season Stats: 14 Wins - 16 losses with a 3.42 ERA

Greg Maddux

Career Reg Season Stats: 333 Wins - 203 losses with a 3.07 ERA

Career Post season Stats: 11 Wins - 14 losses with a 3.34 ERA

John Smoltz

Career Reg Season Stats (as a starter)

193 Wins - 137 losses with a 3.27 ERA

Career Post Season Stats:

15 Wins - 4 losses (4!!!) with a 2.65 ERA

Here is what makes the difference to me:

Glavine: 218 IP with 143 K’s

Maddux: 194 IP with 122 K’s

Smoltz: 207 IP with 194 K’s

MADDUX AND GLAVINE THROW TOO MANY STRIKE THAT CONTACT IS BEING MADE ON! Good hitting teams are going to get their hits. It’s what those pitchers do with men on base that make the difference between a GREAT post season start, a mediocre start or getting SHELLED. Not to mention that the other team WAS trying to get us out too. But against lesser opponants during the regular season, Maddux and Glavine lull people to sleep with there pitching routine. AWAY, AWAY, AWAY! Hey, give them credit. If nobody is gonna adjust (or make the wrong adjustments) more power to them for being consistant enough to make it work for their entire career.

But in the postseason, those other teams don’t accidentally get there. They are usually pretty good at either hitting, or pitching. Sometimes BOTH! Guys are going to be ALERT, ON TOP OF THEIR GAME, and WILLING TO ADJUST. They did and we lost a LOT of games with 2 sure bet 1st ballot HOFr’s. The other starter may get into the HOF base on WHAT SUCCESS he had in the postseason (not to mention closing for a while).

I know it seems too simple for some to “really” grab onto and accept. But I really do think it’s as simple as Glavine and Maddux just not being the TYPE of pitchers that dominate good hitting teams in October.

Nothing more, nothing less.

By The Grinch

November 11, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this

WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WWOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF

Scalp, em’, where ya at, bra?

Matthew and Hillbilly, you’re welcome. Now spank the reptiles for us and we’ll call it even.

By BB FAN

November 11, 2006 05:17 PM | Link to this

Robert,

Are you seriously suggesting that other GMs and Managers pretend to think Cox is a great manager so that they don’t give the Braves any reason to play hard? That is as ludicrous as your other “conspiracy theory” about them saying how great Cox is just so the Braves keep him as manager because he really isn’t good. That is idiotic. Sorry, no offense, but that is just stupid.

And do you really think Braves players are not playing hard? Do you really think those guys did not want to win more than 1 WS ring? Give me a break. They don’t need somebody to tell them it’s important to win. Nobody goes out on the field and wants to lose.

And do you really believe that these grown men don’t think they need to play hard because according to their manager and GM, the playoffs are a crapshoot? Come on. That’s just as rediculous.

It’s simple, only 1 in 30 teams win the WS every year. With the shortened 1st round, there are going to be a lot more upsets.

Have you not noticed that since baseball split teams into divisions in ‘69, it’s not just the Yankees and the Dodgers playing in the WS? From 1920- 1968 (before divisions), the Yankees had 20 WS rings. From 1969-2006, only 6. It’s because it’s a lot harder to beat 2 or 3 teams in the playoffs than it is to beat 1 team. Especially with a short 5 game series in the 1st round.

The more teams you add to the playoffs, the more different outcomes there are. Since the wild cards were added, teams that would not have made the playoffs are winning the WS. And since baseball instituted the revenue sharing, it’s become even more wide open. The best team in the regular season does not win the WS nearly as much as they used to.

By Metropolitan Man

November 11, 2006 06:18 PM | Link to this

By David O’Brien November 11, 2006 03:20 PM | Metro Man, you really thank Braves fans would be pleased if the Braves traded Andruw for three pitching prospects, and no proven players? No, most wouldn’t.

Very true, they would be teed off. Of course the Sheffeild the deal was to get rid of the problem but they did set a standard on a deal that gave them a chance to extend the contract. Now homeboy upstairs will have to pull the trigger in the winter meetings and get your leadoff guy and pen help or whatever. If not then, A. Jones will of course be playing his rear off in contract year driving up his price. Say maybe around the allstar break which could possibly too late JS will try to trade him. Anyway JS has a good trading block but if he cant get anothe GM to make a deal at the winter meetings, the talent in return will get smaller and smaller. Sure wish we had a trading chip like that, pitching, pitching, and more pitching would be the asking price in return. (if it were up to me of course)

By journalist jimmy smith

November 11, 2006 06:19 PM | Link to this

hip hop is in town tonight. this journalist will be on the way to several hip hop parties very soon. will dob be going to these parties? first, buckhead. next, atlantic station. next, phipps plaza. a whirlwind of activity for jimmy smith and his beautiful date. tonight, journalist jimmy smith will go by jimmy smith’s popular street name, seal daddy. dob, hope to see you at some of the parties - you can identify jimmy smith now - only seal daddy in town. now, baseball …if the tigers got sheffield to provide some pop in the post season they’d have been better off dusting off lemke and giving him a shot. giving up young pitchers can work - or not work. the braves could have used some strong, young arms at a time bobby kept sending out the tired, the poor, wretched refuse of last season. now, pie … it is november and pumpkin, pecan, and mince meat pies are to be found everywhere. it is important that bloggers not over-indulge in pies this month - remembering that december is also a big pie month. now, journalist must don a fur (not going over well with baby seal) and be off to the hip hop parties. g’night all. grinch going tonight?

By Lew

November 11, 2006 06:35 PM | Link to this

Seal Daddy? I feel a new Superstar has been born.

By AC

November 11, 2006 06:39 PM | Link to this

Check your stats 9 out of 11 blown saves ops? also if Linebrink is just another relief man why do the Braves covet him as do most contending teams? ala the Mets late last year trying to deal O Perez for Linebrink and having it axed the next day. hmmm starting Lefthanded power pitcher for a Setup guy. When Hoffman retires Linebrink will be ready to inherit the position unless another team decides they need a shutdown relief pitcher and offers up equal value. He may just be a good relief pitcher but that by nature is hard to find.

By Stinky

November 11, 2006 07:28 PM | Link to this

37-15. I can breathe again.

But,

robert, Don’t even try to jump on the Bulldog bandwagon. You were clueless the other day about my comment regarding Vince Dooley’s retirement. You are a poser (or poseur, if you’re like DOB and you like french words and Scott Borass).

You are not Red and Black. You should be flogged, dipped in beef tallow, deep fried, and sent to be eaten and digested by steve spurrier. The digested turd-robert should then be burned and sent into outer space so as to rid this beautiful world of your foul presence. Eat sh!t and die you worthless bugger.

By The Grinch

November 11, 2006 07:30 PM | Link to this

Easin’ down the highway in a new Cadillac, I had a fine fox in the front and I had three more in the back/ They sportin’ short dresses, wearin’ spike-heel shoes, They smokin’ Lucky Strikes and wearin’ nylons, too/ Cause we BAD, we nationwide. Yeah we BAD, we nationwide./

Well I was movin’ down the road in my V-8 Ford, I had a shine on my boots, I had my sideburns lowered/ With my New York brim and my gold tooth displayed, nobody give me trouble cause they know I got it made/ I BAD, I’m nationwide.

By Calvin

November 11, 2006 07:56 PM | Link to this

KC. The Braves played the Cubs in 03 not 02. In 02, they played the Giants.

By Lew

November 11, 2006 08:15 PM | Link to this

Stinky-Did you attend UGA?

By Lone Wolf

November 11, 2006 08:17 PM | Link to this

Ive noticed the Criticism leveled at Ronald Reagan , Bobby Cox and John Schuerholz. Einstein said this concerning criticism of greatness: Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.

By The Grinch

November 11, 2006 08:26 PM | Link to this

Forgot Arkansas had to go through Phat Phil phirst. We shall see. No hip-hop parties for me tonight, Jimmy; don’t have all-season tires on my Brougham and it’s rainin’. Just have to settle for some local ho’s and a freezer full of 40’s. :-)

By Lew

November 11, 2006 08:26 PM | Link to this

Lone Wolf-You’re absolutely right-I’ve been getting grief my whole life.

By The Grinch

November 11, 2006 10:20 PM | Link to this

Lone Wolf, you’re talking about a guy who dresses like Larry King, a guy who picks his nose and defends trotting out Chris Reitsma to close three months in a row and a guy who’s most popular movie was “Bedtime for Bonzo.” If those are your standards, you don’t set your sights very high.

By Troy

November 11, 2006 10:33 PM | Link to this

Cream Soda or Root Beer?

By The Grinch

November 11, 2006 10:47 PM | Link to this

Good one, Troy; depends on the brand. Dr. Brown’s on the cream soda, IBC on the root beer (although I like Old Tyme ginger beer as well).

Piggies, congradulations on whacking Phat Phil. The game wasn’t even as close as the score suggests. With Florida only winning by a point over SC, I like your chances. Although, Y’all only beat SC by a point too, huh? Well. Anyhoo, good luck.

How ‘bout them Dawgs? Woof woof woof! Beating the gnats and a victory in the Peach Bowl would be ideal at this point. Character has been defined.

By Troy

November 11, 2006 10:59 PM | Link to this

Yeah just sitting here sipping on a IBC cream soda with not much to blog, I love em both but I give the edge to cream soda.

By KC

November 11, 2006 11:21 PM | Link to this

Calvin: You are correct (Cubs were ‘03). It was a typo… sorry.

By Troy

November 11, 2006 11:23 PM | Link to this

Hopefully the wheeling and dealing in MLB will really start cranking up this next week, it should be interesting, I’m Out!

By KC

November 11, 2006 11:26 PM | Link to this

nathan: Now that you mention it… you are correct. Smoltz didn’t pitch well in his one NLCS start in ‘97. He was lights out in his one Division Series start that year, but wasn’t quite himself in that one start against the Pads.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 12, 2006 01:13 AM | Link to this

journalist jimmy smith is in love with DOB!…this journalist obsesses over DOB!…oh, the Humanity!…DOB you are this journalist’s “Daddy”!…DOB I love you man!…big wet kisses all for you!…

By nathan

November 12, 2006 03:22 AM | Link to this

KC

That series in 1997 was against the Marlins, not the Padres.

But it was Game 3. He gave up 5 runs in 6 innings, 4 of the runs came in the 6th inning - so I as I recalled, it was LATE, he was pretty much cruising throught the first 5 IP.

BTW, NO. I’m not that psycho to remember the details of that game (it just stuck out in my head as not being one of his better games), I did however, look up the stats. MAN I love the internet! :)

By Bravo Nam

November 12, 2006 05:55 AM | Link to this

Robert

You wrote:

*Glavine is greedy?

Please define greed.

Why do you think he is greedy? Should he have given up some money to stay in Atlanta? What would the fans give up to keep Glavine? Or are Braves fans too greedy to give up anything to keep Glavine?

Do you think that you have the right to seek for yourself the highest paying job you can find, and to attempt to secure for yourself the highest salary you can get at that said job?

Why do you hold a grudge against Glavine when he tries to do the same?*

You call yourself a Braves fan, yet you criticize and incessantly rag on a guy who has done more for the Braves than Glavine ever has, while at the same time passionately defending Glavine.

My response to your questions:

1). What is greed? When you make more money than you could ever possibly need, then make a decision based on money to the detriment of your team and family’s happiness.

2). Should he have given up some money to stay in Atlanta? Absolutely. If he loved playing for BC as much as he said he did, if he loved playing for the Braves as much as he said he did, if his family preferred Atlanta to NY- then absolutely. Most players don’t do it, granted, but then most players don’t have the same kind of relationship that Glavine and his family have with the city of Atlanta and the Braves. Only last year Chipper voluntarily restructured his contract to help out the Braves. In AJs first contract he took significantly less to stay here.

When you already have more money than you ever need, and your success has been due, in large part, to that team, you give them a discount.

1. What would the fans give up to keep Glavine? Even for you Robert, this is an asinine comment.

Firstly, a player serves his fans, not the other way around. Without the fans, baseball is dead, and so too Glavine’s career.

Secondly, the average fan makes $35,000 to $40,000 a year. Glavine has averaged over 10 million for a number of years. Let’s get real.

Thirdly, despite a meagre income, the average fan will support that player and team by paying good money to get to the game, buy tickets, purchase food, purchase team memorabilia. Many fans do this throughout the year. Without the fans, Glavine doesn’t earn an income. Ultimately, all the money MLB, owners, the media etc. generates comes from the fans. They are the ones who pay for Glavine’s paycheck.

JUST LIKE THE BIBLICAL STORY OF THE OLD WOMAN WHO ONLY GAVE A FEW PENNIES TO THE COLLECTION COMPARED TO THE RICH WHO GAVE A LOT MORE- GLAVINE’S SACRIFICE OF A FEW MILLION PALES IN COMPARISON TO WHAT THE AVERAGE FAN PAYS TO SEE BASEBALL COMPARED TO THEIR INCOME LEVELS.

4). Do you think that you have the right to seek for yourself the highest paying job you can find, and to attempt to secure for yourself the highest salary you can get at that said job?

To live life with dignity is a RIGHT. Seeking the highest salary possible is a CHOICE, not a RIGHT. It’s not Glavine’s right to make 14 million a year compared to 10, it’s his choice.

Millions of people could be making a lot more money than they do, but CHOOSE to make less for many reasons- happiness in a lesser paying job, undertaking volunteer work compared to paid employment, have a philosophical objection to receiving copious amounts of money to the detriment of others. I am a Manager of a volunteer organization in Vietnam. All my volunteers are Americans, many who themselves hail from impoverished backgrounds. I have an undergraduate degree and a postgrad degree- at different stages over the course of my life, for almost half of it, I have CHOSEN to forego loads of money so that I could be of service to others- all that I have is clothes and motorbike, with a little bit in savings, but I am happy.

Glavine (like most ballplayers) has put obtaining the highest salary possible ahead of other things- that’s his CHOICE, but not his RIGHT.

MLB is doing well economically Ultimately, the reason Glavine’s, Drew’s and most ballplayers grab for cash angers me is that it ultimately impacts on the great game and its fans. At its economic highpoint, the ones doing well are the players, MLB, owners and Union. The game and the fans are being negatively impacted.

Game- The current disparity in payrolls, where one team is over 200 mill while another sits at 30 mill is an absolute disgrace to the game in the US, and the resulting impact on its integrity. 200 mill won’t buy you a WS ring, but it gives you a much better chance of making the playoffs than if your payroll is wavering at 30 mill- just ask the Stankees!

In recent times, maybe 10-12 teams were realistic players in picking up a marquee free agent. As each year passes, that figure is shrinking coz even middle market teams like the Braves can’t afford to purchase average players for big bucks, net alone good players for even bigger bucks. The teams I really feel sorry for are the Kansas Citys and Minnesotas- if you’re a fan with one of these teams, every year you have to suck up losing a bunch of your players through free agency, while accept picking up the league’s dregs.

If you’re the Stankees, Mets, Dodgers etc., you can afford to overpay for free agents, draft poorly, manage badly and still make the playoffs. And if you have a farm system that sucks like the Yankees, just keep it propped up by trading away someone like a Sheffield for three good prospects.

So, fans suffer because their teams often don’t have a chance to be competitive…and even when everyone else is making money, they’re still paying the same or even more at the gate. The game suffers coz of the disparity and imbalance.

I’m aware that team owners are partly to blame for all of this- raking in the money, yet not increasing payrolls. Nevertheless, if you’ve got most players like Glavine going for the big payday, the reality is that most teams can’t afford to keep those players. Just because you’ve got greedy owners out there doesn’t give a player the right to follow suit. Someone has to draw a line in the sand.

Glavine, like everyone else, has a free choice. He can argue that the owners and other players are all in it for themselves, so why shouldn’t they be? Well, they can be…but then they shouldn’t be surprised when the average fan despises them for it, especially when they disingenuously talk about team loyalty.

Glavine knows the reality of the Braves situation- JS can’t possibly compete with the Mets. Glavine needs to choose what’s more important to him- the money or family happiness and getting his 300th in a Braves uniform.

Glavine has the RIGHT to choose to go for the money, and as a loyal fan of the Braves (who followed them since I was a kid, even though I was only in the US for three years, often received little coverage, live in a country where baseball isn’t played and can’t even get to see my ole Braves play) I have the RIGHT to express my disenchantment, disgust and revulsion at the greed and selfishness that has permeated this great sport.

By Metropolitan Man

November 12, 2006 07:32 AM | Link to this

Wow Bravo, you had a lot to say and most of it made sense. I understand the middle line you are talking about between greed and loyalty. We all know Glavine will stay with the METS for money and go with the Braves for happiness. And thats why I hope METS management makes the decision for him. Let him walk and be forced to be lowballed by braves Management then the fans will get what they want. METS fans get rid of greedy Glavine who is trying to hold us up, and the braves get a cheap Glavine who will win 300 (possibly) in his original uniform. He just needs to make a decision.

By Bravo Nam

November 12, 2006 08:16 AM | Link to this

Metro Yeah, had a lot to say- wrote more than I should- this whole money thing with owners, players, Union, MLB gets me riled up- coz ultimately it’s the fans who suffer.

I would personally like to see Glavine get no.300 in a Braves uni…but he’s gonna have to come cheap…otherwise other parts of the team are going to suffer- you’re right though, happiness is with the Braves, money is with the Mets.

By Metropolitan Man

November 12, 2006 08:46 AM | Link to this

Well reprots say that MLB made a killing in revenue and every team will have an increase in revenue sharing so now we have guys opting out of contracts to make a few bucks more at the cost of loyalty and actually turning fans off. Will we still attend games of course, but when you hear the money heckles, take them in stride. The only worry US smart fans have is to watch our team pay these ransoms and end up with a C. Pavano, M. Hampton or even worse, a S. Sosa. Lets just remember back in the day when the fans complained less about the game was when the players played hard, made less and weren’t so spoiled. If we can balance out spoiling the fans and the players then everything would be right with the world. Nobody wants a player holding his team hostage especially if he is aging and cant hold a 2-0 lead in a playoff game. I’ll take the Perez and Maine and make a Glavine.

By Robert

November 12, 2006 08:56 AM | Link to this

” What is greed? When you make more money than you could ever possibly need, then make a decision based on money to the detriment of your team and family’s happiness.”

Um - so now tell me how much money Glavine needs and who decides how much he needs - are you the person that gets to make these decisions for Glavine?

“It’s not Glavine’s right to make 14 million a year compared to 10, it’s his choice.”

Um no - he has to have a potential employer willing to pay 14 million, he cant just choose to make that much. he can choose to SEEK to make that much, and has the RIGHT to do so - the RIGHT meaning that it is fully legal for him to do so

“Should he have given up some money to stay in Atlanta? Absolutely. If he loved playing for BC as much as he said he did, if he loved playing for the Braves as much as he said he did, if his family preferred Atlanta to NY- then absolutely.”

So, you are now deciding what Glavine should do with his life. Does Glavine get to decide how you should conduct your life - what options you should persue, your goals, your values and so on

“Secondly, the average fan makes $35,000 to $40,000 a year. Glavine has averaged over 10 million for a number of years. Let’s get real.”

This doesnt mean that any average fan, or even any idiot fan like yourself, gets to decide what Glavine does

“So, fans suffer because their teams often don’t have a chance to be competitive…and even when everyone else is making money, they’re still paying the same or even more at the gate. The game suffers coz of the disparity and imbalance.”

Simple solution - If the owners arent willing to pay, the salary demands will go down.

“Glavine knows the reality of the Braves situation- JS can’t possibly compete with the Met”

Oh poor poor JS - How can he hope to compete. Gosh what a genius his manager must be if he wins any games at all

“You call yourself a Braves fan, yet you criticize and incessantly rag on a guy who has done more for the Braves than Glavine ever has”

If you mean Cox, well he may well have done “more” in absolute terms. Too bad there’s a minus sign in front of his efforts and too bad his “contributions” have to be shoveled off out of the dugout into a little baggy

By Robert

November 12, 2006 09:50 AM | Link to this

“Glavine (like most ballplayers) has put obtaining the highest salary possible ahead of other things- that’s his CHOICE, but not his RIGHT.”

The HELL it isnt his RIGHT.

He is not ENTITLED to make any particular salary, but he has the RIGHT to seek whatever salary he wishes.

And as long as he finds an employer willing to pay it, it is in fact noone else’s business.

“Someone has to draw a line in the sand.”

The line in the sand, if ever needed, will be drawn, collectively, by the fans, the networks, and the advertisers, when they stop supporting the game. In other words, market forces

Neither YOU nor any other individual has the RIGHT to draw the line in the sand for MLB, it’s union, or it’s players

Have you ever heard of the term free enterprise?

“Greed” may be one of the worst words in the language, because it’s meaning is defined in terms of “too much” or “more than is needed” - usually with the user of the term putting himself or herself in the position of deciding from afar what is “too much” for someone else

“but then they shouldn’t be surprised when the average fan despises them for it”

The average fan, if they were in Glavine’s situation, would do the same thing he is doing (the best they can for themselves) - The fans’ hatred comes down to jealousy and is totally misdirected.

If the fans didnt watch, if the fans didnt buy souveneirs, if the fans werent willing to pay for autographs, then the pie would be a lot smaller.

Your arguement seeks to hate or blame a small group of people for taking advantage of an opportunity that what you define as the have-nots (the fans) ultimately endorse - because it’s THEIR DOLLARS that finance the whole thing. It is, by nature, self limiting.

If you dont like it, stop supporting it. I suppose that then you’d become hostile toward the fans who would CHOOSE to continue to watch and pay, because you think it wouldnt be their RIGHT

Bottom line, you’re a f78k8n idiot

By KC

November 12, 2006 09:53 AM | Link to this

Nathan: you are correct (Malins in 97, Padres in 98). I’m full of typos this weekend… of full of somethin’ anyway!

By Lew

November 12, 2006 09:57 AM | Link to this

The only way that fans can impact the situation is by boycotting baseball-lock stock and $6 beer and $30 T shirts. Are we willing to do this? It is doubtful. Just look at what happened after the strike in 94 when everyone was totally pi$$ed and stayed home. When we came back they started throwing baseballs to us in the stands after every inning. Definitely made that $300 family afternoon worthwhile. Didn’t it?

By Robert

November 12, 2006 10:42 AM | Link to this

“Are you seriously suggesting that other GMs and Managers pretend to think Cox is a great manager so that they don’t give the Braves any reason to play hard? “

Not exactly. I am suggesting that if other GM’s or managers said something that could be perceived as derogatory about Cox, it would give the Braves EXTRA motivation - and there is no reason to for one team to give another any extra motivation

Look,these days, anything an athlete, or a coach or manager, or a GM says is so totally blown out of proportion. If a player and his manager reach for the same cupcake in the buffet line, the next day in the newspaper they are portrayed as being in a death feud. These guys have to pick and choose their words very carefully if they want to avoid causing a big storm of controversy.

So - given that they want to avoid controversy, and they want to beat the Braves - what do you say

“Oh he’s a real good baseball man”

“Oh he knows just what people need”

“Blah blah blah - hee hee haw”

If Peter Gammons comes on and says that Cox is an idiot, what happens to ESPN’s viewership in Atlanta?

These people (the media, the GM’s, the other managers, and yes, the players) have a MULTITUDE of reasons to not say anything but nice things about Cox (about each other in general)

Again, suppose I am say Leyland. I come out and say “Dang folks, the opposition is being managed by Bozo the Clown. We oughta win easy.” And now we lose. What have I done but hosed myself

If, on the other hand, I say “Well of course no matter what that our roster is far superior to theirs, they have that wiley crafty genius over there who has been pulling miracles for 14 years , I mean , if we lose this series, it’ll be just another miracle worked by the genius, cant blame me or us” - ta DA - CYA

By nathan

November 12, 2006 10:52 AM | Link to this

Bravo Nam

What would the fans give up to keep Glavine? Even for you Robert, this is an asinine comment.

I’m quite certain that if there is somebody out there that DOESN’T need me to “stick up” for them it’s Robert. He’s MORE than capable of responding by himself. But if I may, I’d like to interpret what I believe he meant by this statement.

If the Brave Payroll were to be increased (by some freak of nature), do you have any CLUE how the Braves would regain the money they ADDED to payroll?? That’s right. RAISED ticket prices. Assuming that there won’t be a major SPIKE in attendance. Which of course, is very much a possiblity with some “star” acquisitions via trades of the signing of free agents.

Maybe after the season ends, if the management wants to “raise the payroll”. They should send a questionaire out to ALL season ticket holders, while at the same time, put “poll” in the local newspapers, asking the following question:

Attention to whom this may concern. The Atlanta braves are planning to increase payroll. Will you still be “INTERESTED” in purchasing your season tickets, or single game tickets if the price of those tickets go up considerably?

It seems a little silly, but it certainly would give the “pulse” of the city. If the majority of season ticket holders responded back by saying that they would “pass” if prices were raised….then the team should reconsider.

I know of two stories that directly “relate” to the payroll increases of teams.

I have two uncles that have lived in Seattle since the early 80’s. I’m talking attendance in the ballpark of the late 80’s Braves. My first baseball game I ever attended was at the Kingdome with about 2500 people in attendance. BTW, the visiting team was Boston, it was Clemens rookie year, but he didn’t pitch in either game we went to. Oil Can Boyd started on of the games. That guy kills me! Anyway, what I’m getting at is my uncles have had season tickets SINCE BACK THEN. Needless to say, they’ve got some pretty sweet seats. But when the Kingdome was still open and they had Griffey Jr., Randy, and Arod. Those guys constantly b*thed about ticket prices being raised. The money adds up real fast. But on the other hand both of them have said many times over that they’d rather pay the higher price and have TALENT to watch on the field, than to have the tickets be cheaper and have a CRAP team. Though they both say they thoroughly enjoyed going to the games when nobody was there, kinda like a little family, I guess!

The other story is from Colorado. When my wife and I first got married and started taking trips to Colorado (her father lives in Co. Springs), we were down there for the some Braves Games (Remind me sometime to tell you the story of the PSYCHO woman sitting in front of us writing a “love letter/stalker’s guide” to the Big Cat on his first return to Coors…what a wierdo), anyhow, there was and artilce in the paper down there (Denver Post?) that was explaining the economics about Rockies tickets. Remember this was at a time (1996 I believe) when their attendance was in the middle of that ridiculous sellout streak. They had just over the winter signed Larry Walker to his extension after trading for him the spring before. This artical had stated that Walker’s contract and his contract ALONE was responsible for a $5.00 increas PER TICKET SOLD all by itself. My father in law’s buddy that went to the games with us was OUTRAGED at how ridiculous that was. But mark my words, had the Rockies NOT signed Walker to that deal, that same guy would’ve been p*ssing and moaning to everybody he knew how CHEAP management was.

It’s COMMON SENSE that says the more expensive players you have. The more expensive the “product” is going to be if you want to go see it. For example, seats in 1998 (last time I bought them - my FIL pays for em’ now! SWEET!) at coors field they were $28.00 a “pop” for a seat in the RF corner by the foul pole. That same season I went to a Twins game at the Metrodome, when the Twins STUNK and I got a seat about 5 rows back from 1B looking down the 1B/2B line for $12.00. Big payroll tickets and ZERO payroll tickets.

Of course maybe there is the case of guys like Mark Cuban who maybe don’t care about profits and ticket prices, but are willing to EAT the payroll increases because THEY as owner/fan want to win at all costs. But I suspect MOST teams don’t opperate this way.

Here’s a question for you DOB. The Braves payroll has been higher in the past correct? I assume when the RAISED payroll back in the OLD days, they raised ticket prices? Can anybody confirm or deny whether they have dropped ticket prices since the payroll has come “down” to 80 million?

I suspect I already know the answer to that question. Now THAT doesn’t seem right, does it?

By Robert

November 12, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this

“It’s COMMON SENSE that says the more expensive players you have. The more expensive the “product” is going to be if you want to go see it”

Nathan, I think Bravo Nam is suggesting that the players need to forego their “extra” or “unneeded” salary in order to help keep ticket prices lower

My question about what would the fans give up for Glavine relates to that - If the players give up salary or something else whatever, to keep ticket prices lower, for the fans - then what will the fans do in return, for that player

The answer is likely nothing - They’d still cuss him if he refused to sign a baseball that they could sell if it were autograohed. They’d still invade his privacy every time he tried to eat dinner at a restaurant with his family. They’d still nitpick every comment he makes to death and still heckle him to death should heaven forbid he make an error or strike out. And then if he ever went elsewhere, they revile his memory

By The Blogger Fromerly Know as Billy

November 12, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

This has gotten a lot more interesting in the past few months.

By Robert

November 12, 2006 11:21 AM | Link to this

“I suspect I already know the answer to that question. Now THAT doesn’t seem right, does it?”

Right to whom? If I can sell out the stadium at $100 a seat, should I be selling any tickets at $50, regardless of payroll?

You know, I defend the rights of the players to seek any salary they choose. The potential employers can say yes or no.

On the other hand, I think the idea of profit sharing with the union is ludicrous. The profit is for the owners. The players can benefit thru salary.

That said, if the owners and union agree on profit sharing, then so be it. It’s not then my place to ceondemn it. I can hold to my idea that I wouldnt do that if I owned a team, but beyond that, my opinion on the matter doesnt matter to the parties involved

You know when I go to a Braves game these days? Once or twice a year when there is a premier pitcher matchup or when there is at least a big time visiting pitcher. I’ll pay to watch Clemens and Smoltz or something like that. Beyond that, if it’s on the tube and the tv is on, I’ll tune in a while. I wouldnt pay any extra to my cable service to keep getting access to the broadcasts.

I will not pay to watch a donkey make a mess of things

By The Grinch

November 12, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this

Bravo nam, got to agree with your 5:55 post. Robert, I’ve been agreeing with you on more and more subjects the last couple of days, but not this one. In general, perhaps, but Glavine’s a special case. The dude really is just beyond greedy, and when your greediness stands out like a sore thumb in a greedy sport in a greedy country, well… Metro man, “Happiness for Glavine is in Atlanta?” We’ll see about that; he must not have been reading these message boards if he thinks more than about half the Braves fans want him back (and the half that don’t want him back REALLY don’t). Plus, he’s already defined for himself what brings him “happiness,” which is money (he’s already blown off his family and fan base once). Y’all will no doubt offer him more.

By nathan

November 12, 2006 11:28 AM | Link to this

Gotcha Robert.

I guess I was taking it the other way. What you’re saying is a fair question/propsition for the fans. And as you imply, I would agree. They (the fans) would more than likely do NOTHING. I can tell you personally, that I’m not gonna stand in th parking lot and wash Tom Glavines car, because he took less money so my ticket was cheaper. LOL!

By The Grinch

November 12, 2006 11:33 AM | Link to this

I agree with your 11:08 post, though. Keep in mind that people who have to work for a living deep down kind of resent someone that doesn’t and makes more per game than we do in a year. That’s not the player’s fault, and it isn’t fair, but it’s true nonetheless. So when someone like Glavine sticks his middle finger up at the city when he could buy and sell any of us ten times over it doesn’t tend to sit well. We’re not talking about a guy who’s made a few years at the league minimum who’s taking a contract he may never be offered again somewhere else, in his situation it was COMPLETELY different. With the union thing, the family thing, and passing up making 140 mill to win 300 games with the team that drafted him to make 152 total with their biggest rival at the last minute is GREEDY. It just is, man.

By Metropolitan Man

November 12, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this

If we can just take it back to when the palyers worked a second job in the offseason to make ends meet, all of this would be moot. Somewhere down the line from this, players began commanding more and more. If it wasnt money, it was perks. All I know is that as a fan I will pay to see the best product on the field. Now these guys can do things most of us cant, but does that mean we should have to overpay for it. I dont have a solution for us but I know the players are the ones who are cashing in, not me or you. If my favorite team won every single year, I could care less how much they make or how much I pay to see them. But if my team does win it all for my City, then I feel ripped off. That sounds funny but it is what it is. Just give me bang for my buck and all is well. Keep ripping me off with lackluster performance and I will accuse you of robbing the city.

By Lew

November 12, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this

Well, all of these arguments about ticket prices don’t take into account all of the NEW sources of TV revenue that MLB is pulling in. There is now computer viewing, XM radio and the MLB Extra Innings packages on cable. This, in addition to the teams own tv deals (see that of the Mets and others), has infused sick amounts of money into baseball’s coffers. There is no excuse whatsoever for ANY team griping about money. There is more than enough greed to go around. And we pay for it ALL.

By Bravo Nam

November 12, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

Metro Man

Revenue sharing- yes, that’s another issue all its ownsome- MLB do it so that teams theoretically increase their payrolls- unfortunately, clearly most teams are not using it to increase payrolls.

Robert the Donkey

All this hee hawing and stuff Robert- hasn’t someone given you your oats yet?

Um - so now tell me how much money Glavine needs and who decides how much he needs - are you the person that gets to make these decisions for Glavine?

Look mate, let’s not get cute here. This is a blog. If we used that yardstick with your criticism of BC, you’d be hung and quartered- don’t throw stones in glasshouses RTD. Tom Glavine will damn well do what TG wants to do- nothin’ ole Bravo Nam or JS or Fred Wilpon or anyone else gonna do about that. I’m expressing an opinion here- but at least I don’t treat everyone on this blog like dimwits by making the same point for months on end. I’m shortly drawing this argument to a close.

You can get cute as much as you like about the use of the word greed etc. Of course it’s a value judgment- just like your last 1000 posts about Robert J. Cox. Point is I don’t have a vendetta against Glavine- I have a beef with all players, owners etc. who ultimately put themselves before the best interests of baseball.

If Glavine is genuine about his affection for BC, the Braves, getting 300 games (winning) in a Braves jersey- then he’ll take a big discount and return. If he’s not, he’ll go for the money the Mets have to offer to Metro Man’s angst. This life is about choices- if Glavine wants to make big bucks, up to him, but it makes me sick to read comments about him saying what a hard decision it is blah, blah. It’s not hard at all. The man has to decide what is more important to him.

If it was me, it would be having that tomahawk across my chest- but clearly Glavine and I are not cut from the same cloth- and thank God for small mercies, neither are you and I.

At what point does tens of millions of dollars become enough? The man seems torn between happiness he perceives in being filthy rich and wearing a Braves jersey. By most people’s definition there is a strong element of greed here- unfortunately for politically correct RTD, I don’t have a right to make that judgment- but I am little fella, so stick that up your a*!

It’s a pity you are so caught up in semantics that you’ve missed the spirit of my point- whether it’s a players entitlement, legal right, moral right, choice, compulsion, fantasy to make as much as they can- it doesn’t mean they have to make that choice- they can choose to put others before themselves- when you’re a multi millionaire, I don’t see the difference between 10 mill and 14 mill a year to tell you the truth- the difference in 4 mill is not going to add to your happiness- but it may add to lots of others.

Glav can go for the cash, people like you can applaud him for making the choice, and people like Metro Man and I can call him a greedy bum.

By nathan

November 12, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

Robert

Right to whom? If I can sell out the stadium at $100 a seat, should I be selling any tickets at $50, regardless of payroll?

Even though I made the post. I agree with you one hundred percent. My point was mis-posted and misinterpreted.

What I meant to say was, I don’t think it’s fair for teams (ownership) to PUBLICALLY claim that the increase in payroll is SOLEY responsible for ticket price increases. And then a few years later cut back on payroll and NOT lower prices. It’s hypocrytical.

Of course if a team NEVER says or insinuates that payroll directly effects ticket costs. Then they can do what they want (they can anyway - I just won’t b*tch about it. LOL).

Not to mention, what I did before. That OBVIOUSLY attendance has EVERYTHING to do with ticket prices as much as payroll. It cycles, based on supply and demand. Good team, good attendance. Good attendace means limited tickets available (more demand), means “why not raise prices and captiolize”. Not the same, but similar to a scalper.

In Colorado in the mid-90’s, they WOULD NOT have had to publically “justify” raising ticket prices based on signing Larry Walker. THEY WERE THE HOT TICKET IN TOWN! New team (3 years old), New stadium and lets not forget, even though the Marlins won the WS in 97, the Rockies made the playoffs in their 3rd season and first at Coors Field. People would have filled that stadium with or without Larry Walker OR a winning team. Kinda the same that Atlanta was after 1991.

In those rare windows of public adoration, the ownership can pretty much do what they want. And usually do.

By Robert

November 12, 2006 11:48 AM | Link to this

I just can not agree with that statement that it’s just greedy. What Glavine decides to do is his business.

Regarding his family - Do we really know how he dealt with his family? How they feel? No, we know what a little blurb told us - somebody who wrote that maybe his family would prefer Atlanta - that’s not the full story and we know it. To condemn Glavine saying he just blew off the wishes of his family on this basis is totally unjustified

No doubt that the “common man so to speak, resents the high dollar athletes, in general, and in particular when they feel their pride somehow directly wounded by a oplayer

Common man - get over it. When you have a rare and marketable ability, whether it is the ability to perform some delicate surgery, or to sing beautifully, or to get big league hitters out, your services will command big bucks. I guarantee you that if common guy Joe suddenly found that he had a highly marketable skill, he would in turn now resent anyone or anything that aimed to prevent him from cashing in on that skill to the max

What’s the problem - that the difference was $12 million. ONLY twelve million. Or was $12 million too much

If Glavine decided New York over Atlanta for $200 vs $140, then what? Or what if it was $141 vs $140.

Why not hate on the Mets for offering more? Why not hate on JS for offering less?

Stop using the word GREED. It’s a subjectively defined word based on the judgements or standards of a third party

Glavine had the RIGHT (and the luxury) of deciding between multiple offers. Some folks might have chosen the other way - good for them. Doesnt make Glavine’s choice wrong for Glavine, and doesnt give us the RIGHT to judge him or codemn him for his free choice

This comes down to nothing more than sour grapes from the Atlanta fan base.

By Bravo Nam

November 12, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this

Grinch

Right on man.

Clarification

I certainly don’t want to suggest that all players are like Glavine and/or greedy. Just like I don’t want to suggest that all owners keep the profits to themselves and don’t invest them back into the team. Say what you like about Steinbrenner, but at least it’s clear he wants to win. Unfortunately, he’s got way too much money for his own good.

But in the last couple of days Msrs Glavine and Drew et al. have reminded me of the ugly side of the game.

By The Grinch

November 12, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

And here’s another thing that may help make my point. Does the “I’ve gotta do what’s best for my family” crap he spouted off when he took that deal (which, by the way he’s using the same line now to make the opposite point; he’s gonna make a great president one day) sound about as stupid to you as “Reitsy only made that one bad pitch?” I mean, why even say it? I’d have a lot more respect for Bobby if he’d just say “Hey, I’m trotting this loser out every night because Time Warner’s too cheap to let JS get us a real pitcher. You don’t like it, take it up with them.” Same with Glavine. “I’m greedy, and the union expects me to look greedy, so here it is.” Not “I gotta feed my family, we’ve been living off spam and ramen noodles from what the Braves have paid us so far.” No, Tommy, that don’t wash. You ain’t pickin’ up the family and moving to Pittsburgh so you can make 18 dollars an hour instead of 12. Take that BS somewhere else.

By Robert

November 12, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this

“At what point does tens of millions of dollars become enough? “

THAT question is for each and every person to decide for themselves

“whether it’s a players entitlement, legal right, moral right, choice, compulsion, fantasy to make as much as they can- it doesn’t mean they have to make that choice- they can choose to put others before themselves- when you’re a multi millionaire, I don’t see the difference between 10 mill and 14 mill a year to tell you the truth-“

It doesnt matter if you see a difference, because it’s not your business.

What it comes down to you saying is that you have given yourself the sanction to judge whether the decisions of others are correct, based on whether you see their goals or aims or motives or whatever as justified.

You arent in that position.

If Glavine decides that what he wants out of life is “X (whatever combo of money, perks, “happiness”, six packs, whatEVER that is” and if someone is willing to offer him “X” - then be DAMNED what you think of their deal and whether you sanction it

You self righteous POS

By Bravo Nam

November 12, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

OK, off on to another topic- I don’t want to be the one responsible for setting off RTD’s obsessive compulsive behaviour on yet another topic- he bores me to death.

What about them Hawks?

And then there’s those Falcons…I have got enormous butterflies in my stomach at this point…I think a second loss in a row to a pathetic team that we should’ve beaten up on would be unbearable…I think I could cope with a post from Robert on BC before I could cope with that…sending good thoughts the Falcs way.

By Metropolitan Man

November 12, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

We all know Glavine has enough dough to make the correct decision for his family. If you think the Glavines are havenots then you are just delusional. Bravo Nam hit right on the head. The money is there for the taking. Would you rather root for a player with intergity/loyalty who is rich or a aging pitcher already rich trying to cash in just for the hell of it. We all know money is the root of all evil and these athletes are just showing there true colors. My thing is if you make that much, how much do you give back to the community who helped you make that money???? I’m no millionare but character of a person is the lasting impression, not money.

By The Grinch

November 12, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this

I most certainly do have the right to say anything I please. It’s called the first amendment (if it hasn’t been wadded up yet like three or four others have recently) and I’m excersising it now to say %$#% Glavine.

By Bravo Nam

November 12, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this

I’m guilty- he sucked me in!

I just can not agree with that statement that it’s just greedy. What Glavine decides to do is his business.

Well RTD, you’ve successfully made the word greedy obsolete- if that’s not greed, then I don’t know what is. What Glavine decides to do may be his business (up to a point), but the decisions he makes affects a lot of people- other teammates salaries, fans, blah, blah.

Grinch

Oh, that’s another pet hate of mine- all these sports players earning millions who justify their greedy grabs for more by saying they’ve gotta do it to feed their families…WTF…so 10 million isn’t enough to feed the family…they go on as if they’re one of the common people- clerk, miner, shop assistant, farmer, gardener, driver, public servant- it really is a crock- the justification for their greed.

By Bravo Nam

November 12, 2006 12:16 PM | Link to this

RTD

*If Glavine decides that what he wants out of life is “X (whatever combo of money, perks, “happiness”, six packs, whatEVER that is” and if someone is willing to offer him “X” - then be DAMNED what you think of their deal and whether you sanction it

You self righteous POS*

Sanctimony Robert, sanctimony. Doesn’t become you, young lass.

Back at ya little fella for months of sustained abuse of Cox and others- has the penny dropped yet? Ironic, very ironic.

By Metropolitan Man

November 12, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this

Just look around us. We have teams from around the globe holding us hostage just to earn the rights to negoiate with foreign players. These guys are the best at what they do and are coming here for the biggest paydays ever…Why is that?? Becasue in their native lands they are being paid accordingly to ther talents. I’m not mad at relocating and bettering your life, but why isnt the best team in your native land opening up the checkbook to give you what you want. Why, because our athletes have become so GREEDY that other countires are taking note and want to cash in also. Maybe we should take a note out of Japans book and see why Americans only go there when they cant find a team here. Just like managers, these players know that Japan will pay you market value, nothing more, maybe less. Even up the playing field. Ah hell, give them football contracts that are not guarenteed until the goods are delivered! Then see if that makes a difference.

By The Grinch

November 12, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this

Bravo, very proud of the Hawks and Thrashers for their good starts. Also concerned about the Falcons. They’re starting a rookie at corner today and the punt returner as the nickel back. Not good. They’d better hope to put some points on the board. Also, kudos to my Dawgs for bowing up yesterday and showing some character. It’s a sign that the future is bright. Well, gotta go to the gym and work off the beer I’m gonna drink when I get back. Robert, no hard feelings…just a difference of opinion about Tommy’s character. Later, all.

By Robert

November 12, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

“if that’s not greed, then I don’t know what is”

You dont know what it is - so that’s the most accurate statement you’ve made in a while

You said you thank God that you arent cut from the same mold as Glavine. Pretty obvious that you consider yourself a better person than Glavine.

The choices you made in your life were right for you. The choices Glavine makes are presumably right for him. (if they arent, it’s his mess to figure out) You are not better than he is because you have made some choice that you view as morally more righteous

“My thing is if you make that much, how much do you give back to the community who helped you make that money”

MY thing is that it is up to each player to decide what he feels he should give back to the community.

WE dont get to vote on someone else’s charity. It’s not our money to spend. It was when we paid to go to the ballgame, but after that, no.

Dont legislate charity, or morality. Dont try and solve the world’s problems with someone else’s wallet, or by deciding what someone else should do regarding their income, their livlihood or their family

This one goes far beyond disagreeing whether a certain player has talent or whether a manafger has ability

Bravo Nam, you can decide how to conduct your life. Your opinions regarding how anyone else conducts their life are — noted? (get the drift)

You say I’m too caught up in semantics - well, FYI, there is a huge difference between choices, rights, and entitlements - this isnt semantics - it’s basics

You have every right to dislike Glavine, for reasons valid or otherwise. You have every right to vent your anger at him, to root against him, to revile him,

But you have NO RIGHT to stand in judgement of his morality or virtue

By Robert

November 12, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this

“Back at ya little fella for months of sustained abuse of Cox and others- has the penny dropped yet? Ironic, very ironic. “

No - two totally different things my feebleminded friend.

I criticize Cox’s ability and question his qualifications to hold the job that he holds. When I comment on his behavior, it is to ridicule it as showing him as being unqualified to manage, not to judge it morally

I do not attempt to stand in moral judgement of the man, or attempt to judge his values, or to set a code for the way he lives his life

If you dont see this difference, well, then you’re dumb as rocks.

But we already KNEW that

By Metropolitan Man

November 12, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this

If I’m greedy and sign a $100 mil contract, then I build a community center, daycare, or whatever then all is well. If I sign the same said contract and do nothing then I will be labeled greedy by the people who supported me even if my best days are behind me. Now if I took that money and became a menace to the comminutiy, then where does that leave the fans?. Respect the game, respect where you play and keep it moving in a positve way. Use your family for support, not a scapegoat.

By The Grinch

November 12, 2006 12:47 PM | Link to this

Sorry, one more comment before I drop it and go: Just like when politicians and government officials take their jobs they know their lives will be subject to public scrutiny, so do pro athletes when they sign contracts for ridiculous amounts of money to play a child’s game. If you make a choice to take that money, you can’t say “leave off your value judgements of me, I’m just trying to make a living.” No, dude. Just like Hollywood stars who get p** when the paperazzi follow them around…hey, you made that bed now you got to sleep in it. We may or may not like Tommy or agree with what he says or does, but when we pay for our tickets we have the right to heckle. It’s the nature of the beast. If he doesn’t like it, he should’ve been a welder. Then I wouldn’t give a crap if he comes home every day and kicks his dog or not; he would have bought his anonymity with the sweat of his brow. He made his choice.

By Robert

November 12, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

Grinch - of course no hard feelings. Intelligent folks can disagree - and if we happen to disagree on Tommie’s character, so be it. We both realize we cant judge his character

Metro Man

“but why isnt the best team in your native land opening up the checkbook to give you what you want”

I dont know the figures, but I’d bet that MLB generates far more revenue than the Japanese big leagues.

If the players are at fault and the overseas franchises are so noble, then what about the team that demands that American clubs BID for the right to negotiate witrh their player?

And if some American team bids a high amount (last rumor I heard for $38 to $43 million for the right to negotiate with Matsuzaka and his agent) - then are the Seibu Lions being “greedy” if this accept the money, which is obviously “excessive”?

By Bravo Nam

November 12, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

RTD

I don’t consider myself better than anyone else. That is indeed not my place to judge. I don’t consider myself better than Glavine, but I shared something of myself to show that I’m not espousing some sort of anti-greed philosophy that I’m not following myself.

I make a judgment that Glavine is greedy. Granted, I’m basing it on my own criteria of what I believe greed to be. We all make judgments about good and bad behaviour from our own perspective…that’s called being human. Glavine has his faults, so do I. Happy discuss mine any time you want to. Point is his current behaviour directly impacts on baseball- this lbog is about baseball- I have a right to express an opinion.

All law is shaped by public opinion RTD- judgments are made every minute of the day by everyone. Judgments are fine as long as we’re not ultimately judging ourselves as superior- I don’t see myself as superior to Glavine- I simply don’t like some of his behaviour which I judge to be greedy. My beef with Glavine isn’t personal- it relates to the problem I have with the stance he and so many other players take.

But as I said, it is interesting you taking the self-righteous position here- if you don’t have some personal score to settle with Bobby Cox, I’ll eat my hat. You downright denigrate the man by dehumanizing him into animal form…purely because you don’t think he’s a good manager. Look in the mirror Robert. Your judgments of BC make mine of Glavine pale in comparison.

By Robert

November 12, 2006 01:06 PM | Link to this

“we have the right to heckle”

The right to heckle and the sanction to judge are very different. You know this and we dont disagree here

“If I’m greedy and sign a $100 mil contract, then I build a community center, daycare, or whatever then all is well.”

Hmmm - So do I have to build both? How big do they have to be? How much do they have to cost? Do they have to serve YOUR subdivision? And do YOU get to decide the answers to all the questions, or does Bravo Nam?

How about if I signing that $100 million contract didnt make me greedy in someone else’s estimation?

How about if you’re not greedy and not signing $100 million contracts, but just dimwitted and trying to judge those who do? THEN what?

By Bravo Nam

November 12, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this

The Grinch

said: I most certainly do have the right to say anything I please. It’s called the first amendment (if it hasn’t been wadded up yet like three or four others have recently) and I’m excersising it now to say %$#% Glavine.

AND

Metro Man

said: I’m no millionare but character of a person is the lasting impression, not money.

Both said more eloquently than I could’ve- so no need to add to it.

Something scarier than RTD’s arguments are the following ptichers’ stats from Summer League:

1. Devine ERA 7.20
2. Lerew ERA 5.40
3. Startup 16.71.

C’mon Falcons!

By Robert

November 12, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this

“But as I said, it is interesting you taking the self-righteous position here- if you don’t have some personal score to settle with Bobby Cox, I’ll eat my hat.”

Start chomping comrade

By Bravo Nam

November 12, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this

Grinch

Indeed, I’m also proud of the Thrashers and Hawks…and even the Falcs!

RTD

Until we next enter the ring…off to follow the Falcs before hitting the sack…good night.

By Metropolitan Man

November 12, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this

The Seibu Lions are reportedly broke according to ESPN and that is the 1st factor for the acution. The second factor is he will be an unrestricted free agent next year able to hold any US club hostage. The broke S. Lions are trying to cash in on their best player. If the Lions were so called broke, we wouldnt hear about D-Mat until after 2007. Heck he was the WBC MVP and I still had no clue who he was until they said an auction would be goingas high as 30mil just to have the rights to negoiate is what opened my eyes. Ok we have the money and the resosurces, does it really have to be wasted???

By Metropolitan Man

November 12, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

I gave you 3 scenarios about the 100mil contract and you used 2 to continue support your logic Robert. You my friend are a clssic example of someone who gets kicks out of kicking someone else. Im done, I understand your position, but your statements to get there needs work. If this were a debate, you would be banned becasue you attack instead of debate the topic. You took the comminuty gesture and made it a bad idea. Well if Glavine held up the METS for money and they paid him, I’d be teed off. But in the same breath he announces he will use a token of his contract to fund something beneficial to the city (anywhere within city limits) it could be a win win situatuion instead of the feeling of being taken advantage of. You obviously have a brain, you just have a problem using it properly and thats dangerous to you.

By Robert

November 12, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this

You took the comminuty gesture and made it a bad idea

No, not at all. I merely asked a relevent question Who says what is enough?

I would bet that a degree of community service that vindicates “greed” in your opinion might not be enough for someone else, who would then stillm judge the player “greedy”

“he will use a token of his contract “

How much is a token? What you consider a token might not be enough for someone else, and might be too much to yet another, who might judge you “greedy” for demanding such a large token

The idea of community service is fine. It’s noble. My point is that, unless you are a judge in a court of law imposing sentence on someone who has been convicted of a crime, YOU dont get to decide how much charity or community service is enough for someone else to do.

If you took this as an attack upon your idea of community service, it wasnt

By Robert

November 12, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this

“Ok we have the money and the resosurces, does it really have to be wasted???”

We really do need to get into some serious semantics here to have any hope of debating this

First of all, let’s ask if the money really merits to be spent, as opposed to needing to be wasted. Wasted places a value judgement on it, and there is no intrinsic NEED for baseball or to bid on baseball players (well, maybe there IS an intrinsic need for baseball, but that’s getting very nostalgic)

Whether the money merits being spent is up to any teams that might have it to spend. Certainly if I were a GM, I would answer “No”. But it is not my posiiton to do so.

Now if some team answers yes and ends up spending a lot, let’s say they spend so much that it’s too mcuh, so that they have to raise prices and now attendence and revenue drops. Well then it was a poor decision

Should there be a bidding war over this guy. Well, from the standpoint that they are bidding on something that’s largely unknown, and certainly unproven at this level, I’d say they are fools for doing so - but

if there is a fool willing to be parted from his money, then it isnt wrong for the player and his agent or his team to try and get a hold of as much of it as they can for themselves

In the end, this all comes down to one thing.

FREEDOM

The freedom to think and act as we choose, and to allow OTHERS have the same exact freedom.

As such, it rapidly becomes very political, even if in a general sense as opposed to arguing specifics of parties or candidates

I may be wrong, but my personal opinion is that the hatred and animosity shown towards athletes is a reflection of a mixture of jealousy, fear, prejudice, and ignorance

Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand

By Glass Half Full

November 12, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this

The Yanks are reportedly trading Jaret Wrights to the Os for a reliever and cash, which creates another whole in their rotation. Would they be desperate enought to take Hudson off our hands?

By David O'Brien

November 12, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

Bravo Nam, damn man, that was a strong, thoughtful post about the whole Glavine thing. Earlier I commended Robert for fine points I thought he made on the subject, so I hope I don’t sound two-faced in commending you for making every bit as strong _ and obviously more lengthy _ ones from the other side of the argument/discussion.

I really liked this one, too: “You call yourself a Braves fan, yet you criticize and incessantly rag on a guy who has done more for the Braves than Glavine ever has, while at the same time passionately defending Glavine.”

By David O'Brien

November 12, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this

Oh. My. God.

This goes in the all-time file from Robert regarding his Obsession: “If Peter Gammons comes on and says that Cox is an idiot, what happens to ESPN’s viewership in Atlanta?”

WHAT!!!??? So what happens to viewership when ESPN talking heads RIP TO SHREDS other managers, coaches, players? Wow. That was a spectacularly awful comment, even by your standards on this particular subject.

Sir, you really do make carefully considered and reason arguments on every other subject, but your rantings on Cox are just so base, rudimentary and emotional that you sound like someone who rarely watches ‘ball. Again, I compliment you in other areas; I’m not at all questioning or criticizing your overall baseball accumen. But every time you utter some laughably absurd statment like this … I mean, my god, that’s something my mom would say. Or the 85-year-old dude who lives down the street.

I would venture to guess that not one, not ONE person has been swayed in his opinion about Cox by anything you’ve said in 5,000 posts on the subject. Again, feel free to continue. It’s interesting at times, entertaining more than anything else. But if anything, I’d guess some people are even more enamored with Bobby after reading your continued rants about him. Seriously.

By David O'Brien

November 12, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this

Nathan, you wrote: “I know of two stories that directly “relate” to the payroll increases of teams.”

Again, you’re speaking in theory of what you think should happen, or what has happened elsewhere, while ignoring simple facts:

Braves salary decreased every season from 1998 (second year in new park) to 2004, and in the first five years of that time frame, they had one of the highest payrolls in the sport.

Braves attendance increased, albeit slightly, each of the past two seasons, when they had a stagnant $80 mill payroll and relied on more young players than they have at any time since before their division run began.

Those are the facts. Make of them what you may.

By Lew

November 12, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. You have the power (we have it, actually), to put a stop to the rampant salaries-STOP BUYING ANYTHING BASEBALL RELATED. Don’t but tickets and pay the ridiculous concession prices. Don’t buy T shirts with MLB logos. Don’t buy Fenway Franks or Big Papi Salsa (which is excellent, BTW). Don’t buy your kids baseball gloves with anyone’s name on them. Don’t get MLB Extra Innings. Don’t watch games on your computers or the Saturday Fox games. Boycott the sh!t out of baseball. With the new CBA agreement in place, it is obvious that baseball’s spending habits will not change. If you don’t like it, this is your only alternative. Booing Glavine when he comes to Turner Field will not work. They’ll just throw you a baseball and make you happy for $8 bucks.

By KC

November 12, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this

The other day there was some discussion here about who the best 2nd baseman in the league is.

Ya know something… I didn’t realize the year that Ray Durham just had for the Giants. Maybe we aren’t giving him enough love: .293, 26-HR, 93-RBI

By KC

November 12, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

Utley finished with 6 more homers and 9 more RBI than Durham, but he also had roughly 150 more at-bats. And isn’t Durham a former gold-glover at 2B? I could be wrong on that, but it seems like I remember him winning 1 or 2 gold-gloves.

By Lew

November 12, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

Oh Yeah-One more thing. Just let them try to sue the fans for collusion.

By David O'Brien

November 12, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

Robert, as I said, in every area but one you usually make sense (unfortuanately in that one, you’re so completely over the top that it undermines the other arguments at times).

Anyway, you wrote this, and I agree:

“My question about what would the fans give up for Glavine relates to that - If the players give up salary or something else whatever, to keep ticket prices lower, for the fans - then what will the fans do in return, for that player

“The answer is likely nothing - They’d still cuss him if he refused to sign a baseball that they could sell if it were autograohed. They’d still invade his privacy every time he tried to eat dinner at a restaurant with his family. They’d still nitpick every comment he makes to death and still heckle him to death should heaven forbid he make an error or strike out. And then if he ever went elsewhere, they revile his memory.”

FOR EXAMPLE, CHIPPER. Remember last year when he genuinely did save the Braves about $5 mill or more in the next few years (his options were so easy to vest, it would have vested for 2007 despite him playing only 110 games in 2006. He turned those $15 mill options in 2007 and 2008 into $11 mill guarantee salaries, while also cutting his 2006 salary from $17 mill to $11 mill.

Yet those who hate him refused to acknowledge he saved the Braves a lot of money. Yes, he got a $4 mill signing bonus for that contract restructure, but add it up _ $11 mill per year for 2006-08, plus $4 mill, equals $37 mill. Under his old deal, he would’ve made $47 million in that same period, provided he played just as much or more as he did last year.

That’s $10 mill difference. How many fans who didn’t like him before starting liking him after that?

By David O'Brien

November 12, 2006 03:29 PM | Link to this

Lew, what exactly are you proposing to boycot? A game we all love, for what _ in the entirely unrealistic goal of changing the face of the game? I think “the strike” has just about been used enough by those who want an excuse to stay away. If you’re still staying away for something that happened that long ago, I’d guess you’re simply not a fan of baseball, at least not of the high-level kind played with wood bats (if the college game is your thing, it’s like comparing arena football to the NFL).

Attendance has set record highs for three straight seasons. You’re spitting into the wind. If you want to boycott, by all means do so. But to even suggest that there’s some groundswell of like-minded people, or enought to cause a difference, I’m afraid is simply not supported by any current evidence.

By Glass Half Full

November 12, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this

Any word on the Darryl Ward situation?

By Shaun Payne

November 12, 2006 03:42 PM | Link to this

nathan,

There are actually ways to measure run creation and run prevention. Sure, there is no perfect way, but there are ways that allow you to come pretty close. Close enough to make an educated estimate of what it would take to replace Marcus Giles run creation/prevention.

So it’s rather simple, if a pitcher or hitter creates or prevents as many or more runs as Giles creates with his bat/prevents with his glove, the Braves should trade Giles for that/those player(s). Or if their are two or three young players in the mix that have the potential to create/prevent more runs than Giles, the Braves should trade him for those players.

It’s about run differential, scoring a lot more runs than you allow. Sure it’s great to be at the top in both runs scores and fewest allowed, but run differential is what is going to increase your chances to win.

This is why the Braves need to get fairly equal value for Giles (in terms of run creation/prevention) if they trade him, whether they trade him for a pitcher or a hitter. I agree that trading Giles for a pitcher/pitchers would be good, as long as that/those pitcher(s) are worth the same amount of runs. Maybe if it was just an average secondbaseman, I would say trade him for what you need even if you aren’t getting equal value but Giles will likely be one of the better 2B in the game next season.

Oh, and I would say the Braves probably would have been better off with Bonds over Maddux in the ‘90’s assuming everything else would be the same and without taking contracts into account. But that’s six in one, a half dozen in the other; they are both among the best ever at their positions. Bonds created and prevented more runs than Maddux in the 1990’s. But you also have to consider contracts—Maddux made slightly less than Bonds so I’d say the Braves got more bang for the buck in Maddux.

By Lew

November 12, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this

DOB-No, I’m not boycotting a damn thing. I’ll see you at Disney for Spring Training. All I’m saying is either boycott the damn thing til you get what you want or just grin and bear it. And quit bit&&ing about it if you aren’t prepared to do something about it. I’m sick of the whole flipping discussion. I intend to spend $100 a ticket and see two of the games the Braves play in Fenway in 07 (for me and my wife). I intend to stay at Copley Place Marriot while I do it, too. I also intend to see games in Atlanta and KC next season. I also intend to spend 2 weeks in Orlando this spring AND pay $160 for the MLB Extra Innings package. Are you kidding? I’d go even crazier without baseball.

By The Grinch

November 12, 2006 04:10 PM | Link to this

Lew, we really gotta quit with the Pappi salsa? Dang. How about just everything else? :-)

By ernesto

November 12, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this

DOB - So I just checked out some Black Keys and I’ve got to ask you b/c it’s driving me nuts…have you ever heard that riff from “Stack Shot Billy” before. It sounds so familiar but I can’t place it. Is it an homage? Borrowed? Or am I imagining things? Good stuff all the same.

By Lew

November 12, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this

Grinch-Don’t worry-I’ll send you more. Big Papi salsa is one of the major food groups.

By KC

November 12, 2006 05:05 PM | Link to this

LEW: URGENT POST! PLEASE LISTEN CAREFULLY!!!!

I am originally from Boston and have some important advice…

When in Boston, you absolutely MUST pay a visit (if you haven’t already) to Boston Chowda Co.! There are several locations in Boston, including Faneuil Hall and the Prudential Center (those are the two I’ve frequented).

When you go, order the New England Clam Chowda in a bread bowl. It’s a life-changing experience.

By KC

November 12, 2006 05:13 PM | Link to this

In a report I read on ESPN.com today, Sammy Sosa is “clean” and always has been. He emphatically states that he’s innocent of any steroid use.

In related news, O.J. Simpson also claims he is innocent.

Okay… I’m just kidding. If no credible evidence has surfaced to suggest that he did use steroids… then I guess you have to give him the benefit of the doubt (but it’s hard).

By Lew

November 12, 2006 05:27 PM | Link to this

KC-Beat you to it Dude. We stay at the Custom House Marriot near Fanieul Hall all the time. My wife does all the recruiting for Vermont Law School and has lots of functions in Boston with all of their colleges (and pre-law groups). We eat over there all the time. Legal Seafood, also. I still like the cheeseburgers at Fenway, though.

By Lew

November 12, 2006 05:29 PM | Link to this

This just in-Aramis Ramirez signed a 5 year contract and Kerry Wood a 1 year contract to stay with the Cubs.

By The Grinch

November 12, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this

I don’t have to give him the benefit of squat. There’s a reason he suddenly forgot how to “habla ingleis” while on trial, and it isn’t likely that it’s because he’s innocent. He may be, but he hasn’t done anything to help his cause in my eye (not that anyone cares about my opinion, but still). Sad to say, but of all the accused “big boppers” of that era, the one I have the most respect for is Canseco. At least he admits it.

By Lew

November 12, 2006 05:34 PM | Link to this

This also just in- The Yankees traded Jaret Wright to the Orioles for RH reliever Chris Britton. The Yankees are also paying $4mil of Wright’s $7mil salary. We’ll see if being back withLeo helps Wright.

By The Grinch

November 12, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this

BTW, I know that last post sounded high and mighty and I didn’t mean it to. I have nothing against those guys for shooting ‘roids; it’s no different morally than me snorting coke. It’s not the smartest thing to do for your body and it’s illegal, but that’s your business if you want to do it. I’m just saying when you’re in the spotlight and you choose to stick yourself in the butt with a needle you shouldn’t be surprised when your reputation suffers. As for innocent until proven guilty, all I got to say is look at the rookie cards of McGwire, Sosa and Bonds. Look at any of their cards during their “magical power seasons” that occured in what should have been in the twilight of their careers. Am I the only one that notices the extra 30-50 pounds of lean muscle mass? That doesn’t happen to a pro athlete in their mid-thirties suddenly from switching from beef to fish. Sorry.

By KC

November 12, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this

LEW: Good to hear. Everyone needs to check Boston Chowda Co. NE Clam Chowda in a bread bowl off their life’s to-do list before they can die!

There’s no chowda like what you find in Boston!!!

By KC

November 12, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

What were the terms of the Kerry Wood re-signing? Anyone know?

If I were a GM… I’d offer him a one year-1 million dollar deal with the longest string of incentive clauses known to man that would allow him to earn potentially as much as 13 million if he stayed off the DL and produced as it’s presumed he’s capable if healthy.

By David O'Brien

November 12, 2006 06:11 PM | Link to this

Half Full, Ward should signed by week’s end, unless another team steps in and blows Braves’ offer out of water. This is another of those times when another $10-20 mill in the payroll would’ve prevented such a signing as this from taking this long. They want him badly, just don’t want to pay him quite what he wants.

But he wants badly to play for the Braves. He loved his experience here. I talked to him late Friday night. He actually just moved into a home in Orlando.

By David O'Brien

November 12, 2006 06:13 PM | Link to this

Lew, that’s cool. Sorry, bro, I misinterpreted what you wrote. I, too, am obviously sick of that discussion, same as you. Those who fall back on that, “I haven’t liked baseball since the strike…”

Most current players were in grade school or junior high when the last strike occured.

By Lew

November 12, 2006 06:14 PM | Link to this

KC-Ramirez signed 5 years $73 million and Wood signed 1 year for less than $2mil. I think it was like $1.78 mil or something in that neighborhood.

By David O'Brien

November 12, 2006 06:15 PM | Link to this

KC, you can buy great chowder in a bread bowl at San Francisco’s beautiful ballpark, too.

Fenway and Pac Bell (er, AT&T) _ two of my favorite venues, and nothing to do the chowda in a bread bowl, either. Just everything about those places.

By Lew

November 12, 2006 06:17 PM | Link to this

KC-$1.75 million for one year with incentives to $6million.

By David O'Brien

November 12, 2006 06:18 PM | Link to this

Lew, how ‘bout Legal Seafoods INSIDE Fenway. How cool is that (even if it’s just a stand, not the full menu or anything).

But I like those Italian sausages with peppers that the dudes cook out on the sidewalk on Boylston, or whatever street that is behind home plate.

By BB FAN

November 12, 2006 06:20 PM | Link to this

I do agree with Robert on the fact that every player has the right to take any contract he wants. However, I also agree with Bravo Nam saying it was greedy of Glavine to take the extra few million from the METS.

If a player wants to go for money only, he has that right, but don’t say it’s because he has a family to support. And don’t expect fans to understand.

most fans are likely jealous…for good reason though. The average fan works 40-50 hours a weeks or more for $35000-$50000 a year and just gets by. And yet, they still support their team even though ticket prices are so high. I would say that’s giving something for the player. Without the fans, these players would have to go get $35000-$50000 a year jobs.

So technically, the players do owe the fans something like “loyalty” because fans pay their salaries. That’s why I think it was greedy for Glavine to take more money. Like he could not have lived on ~ 10 million a year as opposed to the ~13 million a year from the Mets. Of course, like DOB said, it’s unlikely the fans will stop supporting sports, but the athletes should still be thankful. Again, that was his right though.

Owners are able to raise the prices of everything to pay high salaries to players because of the fact that fans will likely always support sports.

It’s because of the greed of the players and owners that there is no happy median. I don’t agree that the players should have to get jobs in the off season like they used to. However, I also don’t agree that they should live and act like spoiled rich brats that get away with everything. And force the average fan to fork over as much for a ticket as it is.

Former NBA player, Latrell Spreewell saying he can’t live on 10 million a year because “he has a family to feed” was just absolutely ridiculous. These guys should be happy they don’t have to feed their families on $35000-$50000 a year. And that’s why fans get angry with athletes.

By David O'Brien

November 12, 2006 06:20 PM | Link to this

K.C. _ credible evidence on Sosa? Uh, did you remember what he looked like in his last season? He looked like the former Sammy’s kid brother. Unbelievable. NOBODY shrank as much as him. Guess nobody he knew told him about HGH _ no test for it, still.

By David O'Brien

November 12, 2006 06:23 PM | Link to this

Ernesto, I’m not sure, but it does sound like a riff from some song. That goes on all the time, though.

Man, you should’ve heard them sing that Friday. Amazing. He just SHREDS on guitar, and the drummer goes through an absolute workout all night, he plays so hard and so well.

By David O'Brien

November 12, 2006 06:25 PM | Link to this

What street is is, by the way? Because now I remember it’s not Boylston _ that runs the other way, past our hotel? Red Sox fans should be ridiculing me about now for not knowing (hey, I’ve only done 3-4 series there).

By The Grinch

November 12, 2006 06:32 PM | Link to this

Man, y’all are making me hungry and I’ve never even been to Boston. I absolutely love clam chowder (sorry, da); that sounds like something I’ll have to check out. Haven’t had any real seafood in a while.

By J-MAN

November 12, 2006 06:54 PM | Link to this

I read that the Giles / Linebink deal should go through before the weeks end. And all that thats slowing it up is the prospect the Barves would get in the throw-in. Now I’ve been looking up to see what the Braves might do to fill that Lead-off role but so far all I’ve read is just stuff involving Ramirez and prospects but the Braves wouldn’t get a true big name at lead-off for them so don’t look for much.

By J-MAN

November 12, 2006 07:01 PM | Link to this

And another thing Chower great but Southern style cooking kick the a$$ of any other cuisines out there PERIOD take it from me I used to be 300LBS and thank god for the gym so I can enjoy Fried chicken, Mashed potatoes, and green beens with out having a bigger gut than David Wells and Man-Boobs like Tony Gwynn.LOL

By KC

November 12, 2006 07:24 PM | Link to this

GRINCHY:

If you ever get up to Boston… you absolutely have to try it out. Of course, nearly any seafood you get up there is going to be amazing.

By Troy

November 12, 2006 08:19 PM | Link to this

J-Man just curious as to where you read that the Giles/Linebrink deal is for sure going down, and who are the prospects that they are looking at in the deal?

By GM Wannabe

November 12, 2006 08:32 PM | Link to this

J MAN: Just curious where did you read that the Giles/Linebrink deal was about to go down?

By Troy

November 12, 2006 08:41 PM | Link to this

thats pretty funny

By The Grinch

November 12, 2006 08:43 PM | Link to this

J-MAN, I practically live at Gold’s so I can enjoy a life of good food and good beer. And truthfully, I’m burly but I still ain’t svelte (I’m still kickin’ close to 300, though it really is mostly muscle…mostly). And yes, southern cooking rocks, but every now and then I like to sample other things. Just about every region in the world has its own good cooking. But yeah, southern food…don’t even get me started.

KC, I believe it. I’ve had some pretty good seafood in Florida, New York, Baltimore and New Orleans just to name a few (hell, there’s a couple of places in south Ga that aren’t bad). But I haven’t tried Boston yet and I’m lookin’ forward to it, considering how much I’ve heard from reliable sources.

Anyone see the first “Manning face” of the night? The Giants drove down to the red zone on their first drive and on 3rd and 6 Eli overthrew Burress, then Feely missed a 33 yard figgie. The shot of Eli’s face as he walked to the sidelines was priceless. Talk about a spoiled family.

By Lew

November 12, 2006 08:44 PM | Link to this

The best seafood is at either of the Leverock’s in St. Pete. If anyone ever goes to a Braves/Rays series, you have to check it out. There’s one north of the ballpark in Pinellas Park and another one on the Intercoastal waterway. It’s got more atmosphere, but the food is great at both. Or try Pepin’s if you like real Spanish food. They have several good Pomapano entrees. I ate next to Whitey Herzog one night (didn’t ask for his autograph, either) when the Cards trained in St.Pete.

By Lew

November 12, 2006 08:47 PM | Link to this

Now JMan-Let’s not get down on we People of Substance.

By Troy

November 12, 2006 08:51 PM | Link to this

Grinch- your beer of choice?

By David O'Brien

November 12, 2006 09:02 PM | Link to this

J-Man, I wrote a story for tomorrow’s paper with Schuerholz being surprisingly candid by saying wouldn’t surprise him if Braves made a trade or two during the GM meetings.

I wrote that San Diego and Cincy have expressed interest in Giles, that Padres are natural fit, and that they’re being coy about having several options at 2B to consider only because they’re probably trying to inflate Linebrink’s trade value and give up nothing else of value for Giles.

Yes, I think it’ll go down soon.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 12, 2006 10:59 PM | Link to this

is a cobbler a pie? or a mender of shoes? and what of cobbler tough as shoe leather? much to consider. seal daddy has had an eventful weekend at many parties. bought some wheels that turn while journalist’s suv remains still. if a journalist orders a root beer in a hip hop establishment malt liquor will be served. never fails. journalist notes talk of chowder and salsa has taken place on this blog. the falcons played like chowder today. this journalist was disparaged on the blog while away partying. journalist has new friends who will intervene on behalf of journalist. ugly blogger is familiar, huh? boppy bop carrot top hip hop chop chop - ugly posting must stop. seal daddy is on tonight.

By The Grinch

November 12, 2006 11:00 PM | Link to this

Troy, that’s a BIIIIIG question. Man, it totally depends on the season, the food in question (or lack thereof), mass produced domestic, microbrew domestic, import (and from what country), time of day or night, etc. That’s like asking a movie critic what kind of movie he likes. Narrow it down to a category or situation and I’ll see what I can do, cause honestly, I really do like hundreds of beers. No %$#@.

By The Grinch

November 12, 2006 11:16 PM | Link to this

Journalist Jimmy, the Falcons also had twelve, yes, twelve starters out of 22 out due to injury. Nonetheless, that shouldn’t have prevented their top three recievers from dropping 7 or 8 key passes, nor should it have allowed Vick to fumble at the end when not even touched. Still, this team is an enigma. Perhaps they can cobble together a game plan for next week vs. a really good team; they seem to be able to beat those. Go and figure.

By Lew

November 12, 2006 11:18 PM | Link to this

Yes, hundreds of beers on a nightly basis. He can even out drink Seal Daddy.

By Matt B

November 13, 2006 12:11 AM | Link to this

DOB-

You’re talking about Yawkey Way in Boston. Yawkey and Landsdowne (behind the outfield) serve the best post-game food, without question. I’m a transplanted Braves fan (moved from ATL to NYC to BOS) and sometimes go to Fenway just to eat some ballpark food b/c it’s that freaking good. It’s a great area for beers, too. I’m moving back to the ATL next month and will miss Fenway. I will, however, not miss the price of admission. Here I come $5 tix at the Ted.

Thanks for all your work, brotha. I enjoy your baseball and music coverage.

By flbravesgirl

November 13, 2006 12:20 AM | Link to this

Lew, the St. Pete Leverocks must be a lot better than the 2 locations we had here. They’ve both closed down. Best seafood here is at the Anna Maria Oyster Bar (there’s actually 3 of them). Better than anyplace I went to on a trip to Connecticut a few years back. We also have the best Cuban sandwich I have ever eaten in a little local sandwich/ice cream shop called A La Mode (good ice cream too).

By Lew

November 13, 2006 01:33 AM | Link to this

I don’t know about any other than those in St.Pete, but I ate at both of them many times and they were great every time.

By Bravo Nam

November 13, 2006 07:19 AM | Link to this

DOB

No, I don’t think you are two-faced by giving props to both Robert and I. Coz…it simply shows an openess to all sides of an argument. At different times over the course of the months on this blog, I’ve swayed back and forth between arguments expressed by two or more different bloggers. On other occasions, I’ve also changed my stance on things as a result of feedback from others.

I agree. Robert is actually remarkably well versed on the game- bar one unsightly issue. He certainly puts up a good fight, even though I don’t always agree with him. In relation to the Glavine issue, we reached a stalemate- we didn’t agree on the overall topic- but you’re right, he did make some good points. And like you, I agree with the comments he made about fan ingratitude, even if a player does sacrifice salary.

The comments you made about Chipper are the very reason why he’s one guy I haven’t suggested trading or criticizing for performance. He’s a bit of a hard nut and can come across as surly and a little arrogant, but he’s one of the few Braves players who I believe genuinely loves the team he represents with all his heart. If my memory serves me correctly, for the two years previous to this, he went to JS and offered to have a salary restructure. And I also seem to recall that a few years back he also restructured his salary or did something to help the team out. It does annoy me given what he has meant to the Braves over the years and his sacrifices that many fans show him such disdain and lack of appreciation. Partly I think it’s because he lacks the public social skills and charm of some of the other players- a bit like the snotty nosed kid who always shoots himself in the foot, but has a heart of gold. Chipper doesn’t come across as a lovable kind of character, but I think there’s a lot of good there masked by his public persona. I know probably the great majority of fans don’t appreciate what he has done, but I do- and regard him as one of the truly genuine Braves. I think we also forget that when healthy, this guy is an absolutely fantastic player who strikes more fear into the hearts of the opposition than Andruw does…I will never forget that purple patch he had in the middle of the season where his numbers were Bondsesque at Bonds peak.

So, going back to Robert’s comment about fans not appreciating what players do anyway, I agree, but with two comments:

1). I think it depends on the player- a Chipper or Glavine are not well liked and revered, and anything good they do is unlikely to sway their detractors- but if say a Cal Ripken or Jeff Francoueur type player who is adored and respected was to do this, it would be appreciated; 2). The most lasting sense of fulfilment comes, not from others recognition (as that comes and goes), but from your own knowledge that you really made a genuine sacrifice for something/someone other than yourself- only we can know that- sometimes fans can give us more credit than we deserve, and vice versa- ultimately it’s being able to live with yourself and knowing you’ve done the right thing that counts.

If Robert would only get off his BC soap box, I think a lot more people would be willing to listen to him.

Salary Just as a follow on of a point you made to Nathan about salary and team attendance, at a time of economic growth in baseball, leading to increased salaries, it is a great pity that so many owners have not given their GMs an appropriate increase in their budgets to remain slightly competitive with the Stankees of the MLB. As you noted, in the past couple of years the Braves’ budget has stagnated at 80 mill- unfortunately in real terms, it has decreased as it has failed to keep up with inflation- which means that 80 mill no longer buys what it bought two years ago.

Ward Thanks for sharing some of the behind-the-scenes stuff on Ward- it’s terrific that the Braves really want him and vice versa. As a fan, it always feels good to read about new players praising the team, management and organisation.

Trades Great news- just about fell off my chair when I read JS comment- the Braves really need to make some trades and it’s great reading that JS thinks the same.

Robert As said earlier, you’ve made some good points recently…and on other occasions when you discuss a subject other than BC. I know that your passion is castigating Cox…and showing love for the Georgia Bulldogs!

But, it’s hard to work out where you’re coming from in relation to the Braves- apart from Cox, you seem to get great pleasure out of accusing Braves fans of sour grapes, making snide remarks about the organisation, and showing little love for JS- your argument is predictably going to be that just because you don’t go along with the masses and instead try to show some “objectivity” doesn’t make you any less loyal- maybe, and here’s a subjective judgment call on my behalf- your support of the Braves seems something more from the head than heart, and sadly, it appears your passionate support of them seems conditional upon certain things happening, rather than accepting them warts and all- am I way off beam?

Falcons Fans As I said yesterday, I can cope better with a Robert tirade than a Falcons loss. Is there a more infuriating team- a more frustrating team to follow than these Faclons- big wins against Pitts and Cincinatti, and two appalling losses against the Browns and Lions- I need a stiff drink.

By Bravo Nam

November 13, 2006 08:15 AM | Link to this

DOB

Given that good relievers are like hen’s teeth, why on earth are the Padres so keen to shop Linebrink?

By Robert

November 13, 2006 08:38 AM | Link to this

Bravo Nam you can question my loyalty all you want. I’ve been rooting for the Braves since moving to the area in ‘87, starting when they were awful

In my view of things, one of the greatest flaws or sins is wasted opportunity.

Under Cox, the Braves have wasted golden opportunities that other teams would die to have.

People seem to think that the opportunities arose because of Cox. I disagree. I think that at least 12 of the 14 Braves playoff teams would have made it to the post-season with just about anybody managing.

We will continue to disagree here. Maybe I havent changed anyone’s mind. Maybe I have. It fairly irrelevent. I am resigned to the fact that the Braves organization is enamored with the donkey. But someday he will be gone. And there will be happy days again

And let me state - Happy days might be a non-playoff team achieving all it can. Better to watch a 50 win team win 52 than to see what should be a World Champion give it away or not show up in October

By Bravo Nam

November 13, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this

Robert

Despite your incessant complaints about BC, he’s done one thing no other manager of the five major Atlanta professional sports teams has done- brought a championship to Atlanta. I don’t care how much you rubbish him, you can’t take that away from him- I’ll always be grateful to him for that. The Atlanta Flames and Thrashers, Atlanta Hawks, and Atlanta Falcons are still yet to see a championship.

The most maddening of them, the Falcons, have not had two winning seasons in a row since they came here in 1966. We all know your take on BC by now, but why don’t you take up a far more challenging question. Over 40 years, why have the Falcons never had two winning seasons in a row? Is it because all of their Head Coaches were donkeys? Asses? Actually, they must be a lot worse. You call Cox a donkey despite the fact that he had 15 winning seasons in a row. What does that make these guys? The number of teams in both the Falcons and Braves divisions have been roughly the same, as has the number of overall teams.

It is much easier for an NFL team to make the playoffs than an MLB team. Yet, the Braves have been to more playoff series in 15 years than the Falcons have in 40 years!

The other thing the NFL has had in place for most of this time that MLB hasn’t had is a salary cap- yes, part of how a team performs relates to the decisions the GM makes, drafting, players performances, organizational structure etc- but rarely do you make allowances for this kind of thing when criticizing Cox.

Back to the point- the Falcons- how on earth have they been able to avoid two winning seasons in a row- is it the donkey factor?

By Metropolitan Man

November 13, 2006 08:44 AM | Link to this

Jose Valentin’s surprise performance for the 2006 Mets has earned him another year in Flushing. The Mets have agreed with Valentin on what is believed to be a one-year contract for a substantial raise - to roughly $3 million - pending a physical, a baseball official with knowledge of the situation said last night. Agent David Elston had told the Daily News the sides had made “considerable progress” on the deal, which will keep the 37-year-old Valentin from testing the free-agent waters.

Valentin, who accepted a lowball bid ($912,500) from the Mets last spring after missing most of the 2005 season with the Dodgers due to injury, clubbed 18 homers with 62 RBI after taking over the second base job from Kaz Matsui in May.

Valentin is expected to return as the Mets’ starter at that position, but with utility infielder Chris Woodward also a free agent, the source said the Valentin signing does not preclude the Mets from pursuing another middle infielder from among free agents Julio Lugo, Mark DeRosa or Rich Aurilia.

Omar Minaya next will try to find left field and rotation help, starting when the GM meetings begin today in Naples, Fla.

The Mets also must hire a replacement for third base coach Manny Acta, who will be named the Nationals’ new manager tomorrow. The official said Acta’s successor will “not necessarily” come from within the Mets’ organization, but minor-league employees Ken Oberkfell, Howard Johnson and Gary Carter figure to be the leading internal candidates.

By Robert

November 13, 2006 09:28 AM | Link to this

“Despite your incessant complaints about BC, he’s done one thing no other manager of the five major Atlanta professional sports teams has done- brought a championship to Atlanta. I don’t care how much you rubbish him, you can’t take that away from him-“

I simply can not agree with that statement. Yes, the Braves won ONE WS under Cox, but I dont think he brought them the title.

I think that if the great Braves teams of the mid ato late 90’s had had a better manager, they would have somewhere between three and seven WS rings - at LEAST 3.

The way I see it, Cox was responsible not for bringing them ONE title, but for denying them at least two

I watch the Falcons, but do not get into pro football to the same extent as I do baseball. I dont think the Falcons prior ownership had a strong commitment to winning. They have also had some doozies as coaches, but some real good ones as well. With Vick I think they sometimes try and fit a square peg into a round hole. In my view, better to let him do his thing and risk the injury , but be great until it happens, if it happens,than be forced to become a textbook QB and sacrifice his greatness. I dont know. I do that, while the 98 Falcons team was good, and did let down in the Supr Bowl, there has never been a Falcons team that you looked at and said hands down this should be a championship team

With the Braves - 93,95,96,97, - HANDS DOWN shoulda won rings - 98 and 99 shoulda split with the Yankees

By Robert

November 13, 2006 09:44 AM | Link to this

“the GM makes, drafting, players performances, organizational structure etc- but rarely do you make allowances for this kind of thing when criticizing Cox.”

As far as player development within their own organization, the Braves have been doing something right for a long time. Go back and start with Glavine, Justice, Gant - on thru Javy, Chipper, Klesko, Furcal, Francoeur, and a bunch in between and seemingly to come

Cox has been provided with GREAT talent year after year after year. Without researching it fully, I’d venture to say the Braves rank near the top in terms of home organizatioon grown blue chip prospects makin it to the bigs. What kind of allowance do you want? If anything, it’s an even further indictment of the man. It’s not like they hand him a Pirates or a Kansas City roster full of castoiffs , plugins and marginal young suspects.

I have said in the past that I have no quarrel with what Cox himself did as GM. Heck, put him back as GM.

Anything to get him out of ther Braves dugout

By Robert

November 13, 2006 09:50 AM | Link to this

“I don’t care how much you rubbish him, you can’t take that away from him”

Any positive input Cox had in bringing that title to Atlanta came thru his work as GM, which had ended years before

As manager, he happened to be along for the ride - and it’s a testament to how much that 95 Braves team achieved that they were able to triumph despite the huge anchor (having Cox in the dugout) around their necks all season long

I think nathan said that after winning in 95 Cox still claimed it was a crapshoot. In one sense he was right. The only time a Cox team will win a WS is when it is a crapshoot and his team goes on one of those runs where the whole casino can hear the cheers from the craps table. Remember two things about 95 - it was not a full reguylar season, and the opposing manager was Hargrove - Spy vs Spy

By Lew

November 13, 2006 09:56 AM | Link to this

Bravo-Your comment about Chipper’s lack of social skills was interesting. I am a portrait painter. I have been doing Braves’ and other sports portraits for years. Chipper has always been one of the most difficult players to capture accurately. I finally figured out that he is just not comfortable having his picture taken and it shows. You can tell by the way he smiles in photos. Maybe it’s part and parcel of the same thing. He is just not comfortable with the spotlight except on the field.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 13, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this

flbravesgirl, three oyster bars in rabun county? oyster feed mill? and where are these oysters gathered? and how are they prepared? and is cornbread served? much to learn about this n. ga. oyster situation. now, grinch and beer … pop-top, screw top, on tap, in a puddle, doesn’t matter. now, lew … don’t let these yankees confuse you. while it is beautiful in vermont it soon will be bitterly cold and lew’s lovely backyard will become covered in snow. meantime, flabravesgirl will be eating oysters in rabun county with ned beatty and cast. flabravesgirl, beware the warm oyster! oh, the humanity! one can get so sick … stick with fried flounder. wash it down with root beer. now, baseball … is glavine greedy? what does it matter? he will soon alenate fans in ny with his cool, dispassionate approach to where he will play next season. should stay close to a dentist he likes. weally, weally, should.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 13, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this

incognito. lew must try incognito with uh, chipper. do not tell chipper you are painting him. tell him you are painting the dugout.

now consider, gas. it could be gas. constant chewing of seeds and tobacco and ingesting it all when swallowing gum could cause distress that is coming through in facial expression.

shy bladder. pehaps it is shy bladder where chipper cannot smile while around others attempting to smile. that is shy bladder, right?

or, consider dumb. no, journalist cannot say that in this forum. forget dumb. say toe stress. say oblique. say restructured contract regrets - but don’t say dumb.

perhaps social skills covers it best. kudos to bravo.

By Matthew

November 13, 2006 10:54 AM | Link to this

Go Hogs! Destroying the viles brought us to #7 in the BCS. If we win out, and USC loses once, I think we have an outside shot at the BCS title game.

Thanks Georgia-you validated our claim that Auburn was not all that-I knew I rooted for the Dawgs for some reason! :)

WPS!

By Dennis

November 13, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

DOB

I have not heard any discussion about Jose Guillen the Nats OF and where he may end up. Coming off a tough year and injuries he might be a high value addition to a team at a lower cost than many of the stars available. Of course the down side to him is his attitude.

Besides Linebrink any other pitchers that have been linked to the Braves?

By Lew

November 13, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this

Journalist Seal Daddy -I’m sure it must be the toe stress. I just use photos, so he never knew I was painting him. It’s very difficult for me to be incognito. I am a person of substance and take up too much space to go incognito. I’m very much an outcognito type. Oh, the humanity.

By Lew

November 13, 2006 11:13 AM | Link to this

Matthew-If not the Dawgs, I guess it should be the Hawgs. Good luck. Go Dawgs, beat Tech.

By Robert

November 13, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this

Outcognito? 50 cent word, I like it

By KC

November 13, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this

LEW: How did you become a Braves fan living up north? Are you originally from the south, or did you just start following them on TBS?

By BB FAN

November 13, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

Robert,

“With the Braves - 93,95,96,97, - HANDS DOWN shoulda won rings - 98 and 99 shoulda split with the Yankees”

Who says the Braves should have won championships in 93,95,96,97? You? So that is subjective and very arguable. Who the hell are you to say what team should have won in any year? Unless maybe you were a player on that team.

That ‘93 Phillies team was well put together. It had power pitching (Schilling, Greene, Mitch Williams, West) and good timely hitting (Daulton and Dykstra). The Braves lost 3 of the games by 1 run. Two of them in extra innings. That is the way the game goes.

Those Yankee teams were great teams with great pitching (Cone, Pettitte, Key, Wettleland, Hernadez, Clemens and Rivera) and good timely hitting. Well, they were the best team money can buy. It was a close series in ‘96. There were plenty of plays that could been gone either way but they went the Yankees way. Same in ‘99. Though I do think it was a mistake to leave Maddux in for the 8th in game 1 and Glavine for game 3. That WS was a lot closer than it looked by the sweep.

In ‘97 Florida went out and bought all their players (Alou, White, Bonilla, Kevin Brown, Alex Fernandez, Al Leiter and Livan Hernandez) and then traded them all away after the won it all.

I suppose you think Sparky Anderson was a poor manager too. I mean all he did was win 2 WS championships with a Reds team in the 70’s that had 4 or 5 HOFers in addition to ~ 3 more that were just below HOF standards. And those Tigers teams “should” have won at least 2 more rings as they had the same team together for 10 years. I can’t believe they allowed Anderson in the Hall of Fame. I mean he only won 2200 games.

Cox has had a lot of talent over the years, including 2 Hall OF Fame starters and one potential HOFer. I won’t argue with you about that. There’s a few potential Hall OF Fame hitters as well. However, good power pitching beats good hitting in the playoffs 99% of the time. There were a number of times the Braves hitters were shut down. Cox has no control over that.

And the Braves did not have power pitching to dominate the playoffs. Maddux and Glavine are obviously not power pitchers. Only Smoltz is.

You always say it was wrong for Cox to bring Wohlers in the 8th in ‘96. Well, it’s easy to say that after the fact. But if Wohlers would have thrown a fastball and struck him out, it would have been a great move. It’s real easy to second guess somebody after the fact. I’m sure you probably think Torre is a genius for using his closer in the 8th inning so much in the past as well.

Cox has made some dumb moves over the years. But so hasn’t every other manager.

And the playoffs are a crapshoot. Any time you double the number of teams that make the playoffs, it increases the probability of upsets. Then make the first round a 5 game series, it becomes a crapshoot. It’s quite simple really.

Look at what the Yankees did before there were divisions. They won 20 WS from 1920-1968, but since then, only 6. And they have had the best team money can buy for 6 years and no WS to show for it. I guess Torre is an idiot too, right?

The reason people jump all over you is because you are the one that acts like a self-righteous jerk. Your “donkey” and “hee-haw” comments regarding Bobby Cox remind me of a stuck up Jr high kid that thinks he/she is god’s gift to the world. And quite frankly, it’s getting old.

By Lew

November 13, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

KC-I was born in Philadelphia and moved to Georgia when I was 17. I graduated from Mercer in Macon, got married the next day and did my Masters at UGA. My son was born in Athens. I even lived at Piedmont and Lindburg in Atlanta for a couple of years. I lived in the south (Georgia and Florida) for over 30 years and moved to Vermont in 01 when we were offered a deal we couldn’t refuse (50% increase in salary) to move to Vermont. When I call businesses in our little town, I don’t even have to identify myself-my wife and I are the only ones with southern accents. I’ve been a Braves fan since 1968. Wouldn’t have it any other way.

By Josh

November 13, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this

Off the subject but can somebody at AJC please tell CHOPCHICK to take off those old @$$ blogs!

By Robert

November 13, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

“You always say it was wrong for Cox to bring Wohlers in the 8th in ‘96. Well, it’s easy to say that after the fact”

I was also saying it at the time. Same thing leaving Maddux in to start the 8th in game one of the 99 WS

When it becomes standard practice to let your closer go two innings, then the Wohlers move can be considered valid. Til then, the fact that he shouldnt have been in there to begin with overrides what pitch he threw. If it worked out ok, but when a unconventional and dopey move backfires, the manager must assume blame

Your arguement is like saying that if Pendleton had homered instead of doubled then Lonnie Smith wouldnt have gotten deaked

“Well, they were the best team money can buy. It was a close series in ‘96”

BULL-hockey it was a close series. It was champions who, when given a chance, got up from the surprise first round knockdown and totally dominated and destroyed a team that was led by an inept fool

“In ‘97 Florida went out and bought all their players (Alou, White, Bonilla, Kevin Brown, Alex Fernandez, Al Leiter and Livan Hernandez) and then traded them all away after the won it all. “

So? You trying to tell me the Marlins 97 roster compared to the Braves? I dont care if they rented them, bought them, or stole them, or whether Kevin Brown was on a mission or not. Properly prepared and properly managed, the Braves should win that series in six tops

The 93 Phillies were a nice team - Not comparable to the Braves, but a nice team. So what?

“The Braves lost 3 of the games by 1 run”

Losing a lot of close importantr games. A CLASSIC sign of a talented but mismanaged team

“However, good power pitching beats good hitting in the playoffs 99% of the time. “

Except of course when the Braves have one of the most dominating playoff power starters of all time and still screw up (Avery was a darn good power playoff pitcher in his day too) Didnt help

I’ll tell you what wins in the playoffs. A properly prepared, well motivated, well managed team that plays good solid fundamental baseball

In other words, the anti-Cox

QUIT making excuses for the man. He is a totally inept manager.

Best idea I’ve read in this forum for a while is the one about hiring someone different to take over the Braves come the post-season. My only question then is why not hire the guy with a clue for the whole year?

By eware

November 13, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

DOB, what are your thoughts on Kelly Johnson? I really liked what I saw out of him in 2005.

By no chop zone

November 13, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

Da Mets will repeat as division winners and advance to the world series in 2007 leaving the braves far behind in the standings for a second straight year. Florida will come in second and win the wild card. You heard it here first folks…….

By Robert

November 13, 2006 12:10 PM | Link to this

“And the playoffs are a crapshoot”

Defeatist thinking, flawed thinking, and just flat out WRONG thinking

Why frickin even try to get there, other than to increase team revenue? Why not just go out and play and heck see what happens and collect a check twice a month (In other words, play Chipperball)

An idiot manager can turn a playoff series between two mismatched teams INTO a crapshoot. We in Atlanta have been granted the opportunity to witness this first hand at least 9 times

The playoffs do not have to be a crapshoot

By flbravesgirl

November 13, 2006 12:35 PM | Link to this

No, jimmy, the AM Oyster Bars are down here in Florida where I live now. And I don’t eat oysters.. yuck! The fried clams, however, are incredible.

Outcognito, Lew? I like it. We may need a “blog dictionary” off to one side for newcomers if the denizens keep inventing new words.

I agree that Chipper just doesn’t seem that comfortable with the interview and picture routine and some people have a negative image of him because of it. That’s always bothered me because when I’ve seen him in the more casual atmosphere of spring training, he’s been one of the most fan-friendly players on the Braves.

By jouralist jimmy smith

November 13, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this

alignment! it is merely alignment! oh, the humanity! this journalist may have saved chipper jones for the braves. while having new wheels installed on this journalist’s suv (these wheels move with the suc standing still) the technician told jimmy smith the toe was off. toe? on jimmy smith’s suv? and camber, too? oh, the humanity! what is a camber? journalist asked the tough questions only a journalist can ask - and journalist had a realization: chipper is out of alignment this journalist learned that toe is the major contributor to abnormally increased rate of tire wear - works for chipper too, right? poor alignment results in oblique issues. toe is off results in tender, foot issues. and, anormally increased rate of wear. chipper must see a good alignment specialist. you will be thanking this journalist when chipper returns to form with all toes (not sure how many, just a rumor) properly aligned for baseball. selah.

By Bravo Nam

November 13, 2006 12:45 PM | Link to this

Robert

Thank you for giving my questions on the Falcons a shot. Didn’t really expect you to answer them withm uch confidence coz I don’t think anyone can quite figure out how a team can be weighed down with a combination of bad luck and poor play to the extent the Falcs have. The point still remains though that whatever sport you look at, what BC, JS and the Braves have achieved is remarkable.

I think BB Fan raises two very good points that you need to give more credence to before pounding Cox into the ground:

1) Yes, many of the Braves teams that “failed” (if you can call making the playoffs but not winning a WS failure)were talented- but you never give the other teams any credit. As BB Fan pointed out, most of hte teams we played were pretty competitive units who looked just as good as the Bravos on paper.

2) All other managers have made errors of judgment, just like Cox has. If you were to sit down and objectively follow the decisions of every manager in baseball over an extended period of time, you’d complain about every single one making “dumb assed” decisions. But, you’re not gonna do that, and I don’t expect you to. Instead, we can rely on major league players throughout the league, his peers and administrators to tell us that he is one of the finest there has ever been- for me, it’s absolutely remarkable that he and JS led these guys to the playoffs for so many years running given the length of a baseball season- the fact that the guy has made some boneheaded decisions clouds your judgment of the limitless positives.

Lew

Chipper reminds me of my little brother- very uncomfortable in the public arena- not the greatest social skills- maybe even appears unfriendly to some- but deep down is a really genuine and good dude. Interesting take on painting Chipper- hadn’t thought of it in that way before- but very insightful- you would probably find it a lot easier to get a handle on him if you got to associate with him out of the public spotlight.

Josh

Alright baby! On your wavelength- bloody Chop Chick, Hawk Babe, Bird Babe, Bird Chick, Flick my Chick, Bravo Babe etc. columns are absolutely pathetic- such a waste of space and completely unprofessional- my three daughters 10 and under have more understanding and feel for the game than these babes.

Interactive Owner

The Hawks, Thrashers and Falcons have more problems than the Braves, but at least they have owners who care about the franchises and are passionately involved- for me the importance of having an involved owner is more than just money- it’s about having someone that is a bridge between the people and the team (although Steinbrenners and Co. are excused from this reference)- who is available to the fans- who can stir some passion and fire into the team when they’re underperforming and who is also accountable- unlike these faceless corporations who buy these teams.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 13, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

looks like journalist typed that last post with journalist’s toes. suv. abnormally. oh, the humanity! must have been those oysters at the party last night. now, if chipper is out of alignment who will dare tell him? imagine toes pointing to the dugout and face to the plate! correct this deficiency and he will again be the star of the team. does anyone here remember the “grandmother shoes” once sold at a store downtown for the proper alignment of old, granny’s feet? what were they called? always black. sensible heels. wonder if they can take cleats? chipper will not be fashionable but perhaps he will be in the lineup.

By Bravo Nam

November 13, 2006 01:03 PM | Link to this

Robert

You are kidding me, right? That Marlins team of 97 was LOADED. On top of comparing very favourably to the Braves on paper, they also had a lot more to prove. Don’t misrepresent the quality of the other teams just to make your point.

Cox, BB fan and others are right when they say the playoffs is a crapshoot- particularly the first round. It’s not about being defeatist- I’m one of the most passionate and positive people around- it’s simply realistic. That doesn’t mean any team lets its guard down or takes its foot of the gas- it really is a poker hand.

SPIRIT Robert, SPIRIT. One thing you’re not good at is picking up on the SPIRIT of what people are saying- BC and others are not putting up the white flag when they use the term crapshoot- they’re simply saying that because the playoffs series are so short, all you need is a bit of luck and a hot hand for a short time and you’ve won- irrespective of whether or not you’re the best team. Irrespective of how good or bad your regular season was.

When you look at the tension and agony in Cox’s face during the playoffs, you’re not looking at a man who’s thrown in the towel or doesn’t care less- I don’t blame the guy for calling it what it is- over 162 games luck is accounted for, not in the playoffs- if I had finished in front at the end of the regular season for so long only to see my team find 1001 different ways to lose, I’d be feeling pretty frustrated too with the luck involved in the playoffs.

Off to bed everyone, good night.

By rammerjammer

November 13, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this

Mark Bowman reports that Kelly Johnson is working out at second base with Glenn Hubbard. Verrrry interesting.

By BB FAN

November 13, 2006 01:09 PM | Link to this

Robert,

You know what, I’ve seen the light! You are right, the Braves should have won 15 WS rings during this stretch.

Why the hell is Cox still managing. He has only won 1800 games with Atlanta and 1 WS ring for a city that has no others in any sport. He actually has the audacity to win ONLY 1 WS ring? And he can’t get grown men, who make millions to play baseball, to play perfect in the post season. Get rid of him.

Why the hell was Mazzone the pitching coach all those years? He could not even develope a reliable closer. He wasn’t able to get Maddux and Glavine to pitch perfect games in the post season either. In fact, he actually allowed the Braves pitchers to lose an average of 60 plus games a year. He should have been fired years ago. He couldn’t even get Smoltz to have a better record than 15-6 in the post season. Smoltz should have never lost those 6 games. And it’s mostly Mazzone’s fault.

Speaking of Smoltz, why the hell is he still in Atlanta? He actually has the nerve to lose 6 post season games? Get rid of him.

Why the hell is JS still the GM? He has only brought Atlanta one damn WS ring. He has only taken the Atlanta franchise that was once the joke of baseball and turned it into one of the most successful franchises ever. Fire his a*. He should have done better.

Why the hell is Chipper Jones still with the Braves? He has only helped the Braves win 1 WS ring. He has only hit a measly .304 over the last 11 years with only 360 homers and 1200 RBIs. That’s ridiculous. He should have at least 450 Homers and 1500 RBIs with a .320 AVG. Release him.

Why the hell is Andruw Jones still in Atlanta? The Braves have not won a WS since he took over in center. He has only won 9 gold gloves and hit a measly 342 Homers with only 1000 RBIs in 10 full years. Putrid! Release him too.

In fact the Braves should just release every player and coach from the Gulf Coast League Braves all the way to the Atlanta Braves. None of them know how to win multiple championships. And they don’t ever show up to play in the playoffs. The Braves can just start from sratch.

The first hire should be Robert as the GM/manager/pitching coach/hitting coach/first base coach/ third base coach/ bench coach, ect. Yes, Robert can be the one and only GM/coach the Braves need. The Braves will then win the next 15 WS championships, if not more.

There you go Robert, that’s how ignorant you sound with your rants about Bobby Cox.

By Robert

November 13, 2006 01:20 PM | Link to this

“(if you can call making the playoffs but not winning a WS failure”

In 93,96,97,and 99, that’s EXACTLY what it was

That said, there are some circumstances under which a team can be considered to have succeeded even if they dont make the playoffs

Contrary to the the party line that has been sold to Braves fans, there was maybe ONE Braves team that didnt look like a serious playoff contender during the run

Yes every manager makes some mistakes, some of which are a lot clearer in hindsight.

Cox makes multitudes of mistakes that are readily foreseeable (predictable in fact, both him making them, and it costing the Braves dearly).

On top of this, his entire underlying philosophy is FLAWED as far as playoff success is concerned

Suppose you take a team that is CLEARLY not only playoff material but is either head and shoulders above everyone else or should at least be on the short short short list of teams to win the WS. A team like that (93,94,95,96,97,98,99,00,01) will, barring catastrophic injury,or the very rare situation of several GREAT teams at the same time in the league, get to the playoffs every time.

Teams like that will make the playoffs whether they love or hate each other, their front office bosses, their fans, or their manager.

Take a team like that and put a guy in charge who has an UTTERLY FLAWED basic philosophy regarding the playoffs - and you have just hosed that team - done it a tremendous disservice.

Not to mention that said manager also makes far more than an average number of laughable, predictable, and foreseeable basic stumbles and/or bumbles day in and day out than the average guy

How do you find it POSSIBLE that a guy who plays players out of position, who doesnt put them where they can best succeed, for MONTHS on end, and who thinks that grand slam home runs are the result of “one bad pitch” (it’sa not an act, the man is NOT just covering foir his players - he simply doesnt know better) - how do you think it POSSIBLE that an idiot of that magnitude can have a positive impact on a professionall sports team?

It is simply illogical to the core to think so - and I dont care who or how many of the baseball establishment or the right people have either signed off on or bought into this FRAUD

By flbravesgirl

November 13, 2006 01:24 PM | Link to this

Wasn’t Kelly an infielder originally?

jimmy, SAS shoes? I remember my grandmother having a pair of those.

By The Grinch

November 13, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this

Morning, all. Jimmy Smith has pointed out an important truth about me. While I do consider myself somewhat of a beer expert, and were I rich I would live off quite a beer menu, I have also consumed many thousand gallons of cheap, disgusting beer as well. Much more bad beer than good beer. With beer for me it is much like with women; I have excellent taste but low standards. :-)

FBG, I didn’t realize you were allowed to eat Cubans in Florida. I guess that’s one way to deal with social disparities. While I admit it’s an aquired taste, a raw oyster on a cracker with a little tabasco is a darned fine thing. Fried clams, definitely. What about fried oysters? And Jimmy’s right; when you move up to Rabun be careful to specify what kind of oysters you order. Some of them are pretty baaa-aaad.

Matthew, Tubby got caught looking ahead and forgot we’ve still got some pride.

Bravo nam, the Falcons are perhaps the biggest on-going enigma in the NFL. Other teams go through phases of being really good or really bad, but the Falcons have just about gone 40 years of 9-7 or 10-6 followed by 4-12 or 5-11. It just doesn’t make sense. The Smith familty was not commited to winning, yet wound up with enough talent to always give the fans hope before dashing it. The curse has just carried over, I think, and the wrong coaching staff was hired for our current players. Changes will be forthcoming.

By Robert

November 13, 2006 01:25 PM | Link to this

“When you look at the tension and agony in Cox’s face during the playoffs”

then I know two things

1) He is totally out of his league and

2) Terry Pendleton will be changing Cox’s diaper and his hemorrhoidal suppsoitory between innings

By The Grinch

November 13, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

BBFAN, I agree about the advent of the wid-card and the 5-game post-season series. I’ll take it a step further, though; I honestly think it’s greatly reduced the quality of the game. Yeah, some teams get a shot at the WS that wouldn’t normally, but there’s a reason they wouldn’t normally; they’re not good enough. If we’ve got to keep the wild-card, at least stretch the series to 7 games so that talent has a better chance than luck.

Jimmy, if your wheels keep going after your SUV stops, how do you get stared again? This would appear counter-productive.

By Robert

November 13, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

I do not detract from the abilities of the competition

Not much quarrel with 91 or 92 (altho a better managed player might not have been so easily deeked on the basepaths)

93 - The Phillies were GOOD. The Braves were far better (on paper)

The 97 Marlins - Kevin Brown, then Alex Fernandex and Al Leiter, and Livan Hernandez - none of the last three are power pitchers. On offense, they had names, including Sheffield (who hit .250 that year). They didnt have a single regular .300 hitter - thats how loaded they were

I have said before that the 98 Yankees go on the short list of greatest teams ever. The Braves should have been on that list as well - Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Neagle, Millwood, Lopez, Galarraga, Jones, Jones, Klesko - good GOD. The Padres had Brown, and then that awesome trio of Joey Hamilton, Andy Ashby, and Sterling Hitchcock. On offense they had one of the greatest hitters of all time in Gwynn, and some competant but hardly stellar long time guys like Joyner, Caminiti, and Finley - oh and the great Greg Vaughn

The 98 Padres were a nice team. They shouldve been wiped all over southern california by the 98 Braves

The 96 Braves - well heck, according to the rumor circulated in this blog last week, they themselves felt that the Yanklees couldnt play with them -

What the Yankees actually did (in 96 and again in 99, was TOY with them)

Torre vs Bozo acts 1 and 2

By journalist jimmy smith

November 13, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this

robert, once bbfan was mad at this journalist over a chipper jones joke (one where chipper is hit by a train while a huntin’). eventually, we made up - but it was not easy because this journalist, once in awhile, will make a disparaging remark about bobbycox or uh,chipper. bbfan is a staunch defender of both. we must agree to disagree sometimes. bbfan and robert must remember that name calling can serve no good purpose. sticks and stones can break this journalist’s bones … now, bbfan is in ny and is a braves fan. that speaks well of bbfan. this journalist suggests robert withdraw all negative comments made by robert about bobbycox and harmony with bbfan can be restored. if this works, jimmy smith will apply for work at the carter center. now, kelly johnson at second base … what does that say about all the middle infield depth? of course, kj broke in as a ss. if he can hit, play him somewhere. he was either very cold or very hot when he played before. bobby started him ahead of langerhans but he could not hold the job. is he a leadoff candidate? that was discussed on this blog before. watching this team come together is going to be fun. can kj come off surgery and be a big part of this team? hmmm …

By Shaun

November 13, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this

Robert,

I’m not going to make excuses for the Braves, but their best teams were in the late 1990’s when the Yankees were at the top of the baseball world. Also injuries hurt the Braves in what should have been the peak years of their 1990’s-mid 2000’s run. In 1999 Galarraga, Lopez and Smoltz were all injured for most if not all of the season. That could have been a special year, but injuries and the Yankees cost the 1999 Braves a chance at a great single season.

By Robert

November 13, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

“Why the hell is Cox still managing.”

If ANYONE could give me a rational to that question, I’d nominate them for the Nobel Prize

“Why the hell was Mazzone the pitching coach all those years”

Because he is one of the greatest pitching coaches of all time. His philosophy helped both power and finesse pitchers succeed, and his training regimen kept scores of pitchers uncommonly healthy for the line of work for a long time

“Speaking of Smoltz, why the hell is he still in Atlanta?”

He’s a warrior, and one of the greatest playoff pitchers of all time. Lord knows he deserves to end his career on a team that has a chance for glory - As much as he means to the Braves, I’d like to see him traded late season in 07 and 08 to give him a chance to go out on top (cant happen here if Cox stays)

“Why the hell is Chipper Jones still with the Braves?”

Cuz he’s a consistently highly productive HOF hitter. He is not a good leader, not a good fundamentally sound guy especially on the basepaths, and a butthole,but you can not argue with his production numbers

“Why the hell is Andruw Jones still in Atlanta?”

I think it’s time for him to move on. Andruw is one of the most fantastically gifted natural talents to have come into the league in the past 50 years. He has become a solid producer, and is on instinct a standout defender. That said, he has never realized anywhere near his full potential. He is fat and happy (literally and figuratively) and is content to have his career defined by big stats and lots of regular season success. One of Cox’s boys to the CORE

“Why the hell is JS still the GM?”

Because to date, the team’s owners have remained content with the return his teams have provided on their investment

By ernesto

November 13, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

Did I read my sporting column correctly? K. Wood resigned with the Cubs for 1.85 mil? I know Wood’s been about as reliable as J.D. Drew in a non-contract year but still even if he ends up in the pen, that’s a good deal. I can’t believe no other team would top that, even on the not so long shot of Wood regaining health and form. I mean when he’s got it going on, Dude is lights out.

By rammerjammer

November 13, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this

FBG,

Yes, Kelly Johnson was originally a shortstop. He has a good history of getting on base, so perhaps the Braves just want to have more lineup options with him.

Or, as they prepare to deal Giles, maybe they’re more nervous than they admit about turning 2B over to Prado.

By Robert

November 13, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this

In 99, The Big Cat was out all year. Smoltz and Lopez were healthy for the playoffs

The Braves had eighth inning leads in games 1 and 3 - Cox forked it up both times by letting the starter stay in the game too long

Brosius was already 2-2 off Maddux when he left Maddux in there to start the 8th of game 1

A few nights later, nursing a 5-4 lead, he makes the EXACT same mistake leaving an obviously tired Glavine in to pitch to Girardi, who had already singled off him in the 5th

Same mistake twice. The donkey didnt LEARN

Say what you will about how bad or how incapacitated by injury the 99 Braves were, Or how awesome the 99 Yankees were. WhatEVER - Bottom line, if Bobby Cox doesnt the SAME basic totally stupid managerial mistake in both games, the series is tied 2-2 after 4 games, instead of being a Yankees blowout

By Shaun

November 13, 2006 02:08 PM | Link to this

-Why the hell is Cox still managing?

Well, winning consistently over the course of several 162 game seasons is pretty impressive.

-Why the hell is JS still the GM?

See above.

Are they perfect? No. Could anyone else do better? It’s hard to imagine anyone would have done a better than Schuerholz and Cox with the 1990’s-mid ‘00’s Braves.

By no chop zone

November 13, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

in 2009 the Mets will have a new stadium….Citipark. Citicorp will pay the Mets $20 million per year for the naming rights. You add the revenue that the cable network is generating and the Mets should have plenty of funds to put a winning team on the field year after year. In other words Brave fan, you’re in deep doo-doo. If you hated the Mets before when they weren’t winning on a consistent basis you ain’t seen nothing yet. In fact the future’s so bright I have to wear shades……LETS GO METS!!!!

By BB FAN

November 13, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

Robert,

“How do you find it POSSIBLE that a guy who plays players out of position, who doesnt put them where they can best succeed, for MONTHS on end, and who thinks that grand slam home runs are the result of “one bad pitch” (it’sa not an act, the man is NOT just covering foir his players - he simply doesnt know better) - how do you think it POSSIBLE that an idiot of that magnitude can have a positive impact on a professionall sports team?”

If you actually believe Cox truely means it every time he says something like that, then you are the idiot. Managers cover for their players all the time for many different reasons. For some players, it’s a confidence issue. But not many managers will bad mouth their players to the media anyway.

Or wait, I forgot, you know everything there is to know about Bobby Cox and his managing tendencies.

Do you really think a manager can be in professional sports for 45 + years if he thinks every loss is the result of “one bad pitch”? If you believe this, then good job, you are proving how ignorant you really are when it comes to professional sports.

I, like others on the blog, think you actually have some knowledge of the game of baseball despite your ludicrous rants about Cox. However, comments like that make it difficult to continue to believe you do.

By Shaun

November 13, 2006 02:18 PM | Link to this

Robert,

I’m not talking about two games in October, although winning in the postseason is the ultimate goal. I’m saying the 1999 Braves could have easily been a 108-110-win team instead of a 103-win team with a little more luck. And even if they had lost to the Yankees in the World Series, most baseball people would still be talking about that team as the best of this run.

By ernesto

November 13, 2006 02:20 PM | Link to this

Is it just Mets’ fans and people taking Robert’s bait today?

By Matthew

November 13, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this

I don’t want to get into the Cox bashing that’s going on, but I do want to make one point. From there, I’ll just try to skip those posts.

If Cox is such a horrible manager, then why is he headed for the Hall of Fame? Why do his peers, fellow coaches, and his players (both current and former) rave about him nonstop? I realize that it’s hard to deal with the WS losses that should have been wins. I watched them too. But to say that Cox is inept to the degree that Robert has taken it is a bit absurd. Is this your only passion, Cox bashing? If you took the same energy that you have for Cox bashing and applied it to cancer research, we’d have a cure in two weeks (one if you didn’t go on vacation). I have no trouble with you expressing your opinion, but good grief. In the first place, you’re wrong, and the HOF voters will agree. In the second place, there is nothing left to argue. Your opinions have been eloquently stated, rebutted, and discussed. In looking at this blog, I hope to see some discussion about the exciting moves that JS is planning for this offseason.

Can we leave the Cox bashing for a little while and talk trades? What moves do you all want to see go down? I have a couple:

1. Giles for Linebrink and a top level prospect

2. re-sign Ward

3. Work out an extension with Andruw if at all possible. If not, trade him for pitching.

4. If Glavine will take $6 million/yr or so, then sign him. If not, wish him well in his pursuit of 300, as long as none of those wins come against ATL.

By ncscoots

November 13, 2006 02:24 PM | Link to this

Kelly Johnson will have to be mucho outcognito to win the 2B job in spring training. He hasn’t played the infield in a LONG time, and there was a reason they moved him to the outfield in the first place. I’d guess the Braves are trying him there simply because LF looks overcrowded already, even before the winter meetings.

By KC

November 13, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this

Robert: This is not intended as an attack, but listening to you talk about the Braves is like listening to Bill Marr talk about religion or like listening to Michael Savage talk about anything. Constant negativity and criticism. Again, please know that I’m not attacking you… but honestly, I’ve quit reading your posts because they all seem like bitter tirades to me. If you think everything about this organization is so #$#@^@#-ed up… then why does it give you enjoyment to follow this team???

By Robert

November 13, 2006 02:30 PM | Link to this

“Well, winning consistently over the course of several 162 game seasons is pretty impressive.”

Not a priori it isnt. Winning consistantly with a healthy trio of Maddux Glavine and Smoltz and then going from there with star players is hardly that impressive

“It’s hard to imagine anyone would have done a better than Schuerholz and Cox with the 1990’s-mid ‘00’s Braves. “

Hmmm - so looking over those mid-90’s teams you would find it hard to imagine winning two WS rings?

“Do you really think a manager can be in professional sports for 45 + years if he thinks every loss is the result of “one bad pitch”?

Hard to believe isnt it. You know, if it were ONE silly quote that came at a bad time, then no, I wouldnt think it real. But the incredible Cox d******* come as regularly as the suns rise

“We dont need any team speed”

“Why not let Chipper go for 100 rbi’s Whats the harm?(sound of baseball striking bone - DOH!)

The list goes on and on, but we’ll spare ya

Put that together with his legacy of incredible playoff bumbles, then it becomes obvious that the dumb quotes are not an act.

By flbravesgirl

November 13, 2006 02:34 PM | Link to this

Thanks, rammerjammer, I thought I had read that he started out as a middle infielder.

Grinch, are you telling me that you, the expert on good food, have never had a Cuban sandwich? If you tell me no one has them in Georgia I may have to reconsider moving.

By Robert

November 13, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this

I’m a legend in my own mind. I’m right , the rest of the world is wrong. Bow down in servitude to my mindless blather , blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

By Robert

November 13, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

” I’m saying the 1999 Braves could have easily been a 108-110-win “

Which would have made their subsequant Cox-led playoff fold appear all that much the worse

Other than that, who cares if they won 108 or 103 - They needed 97 to get into the playoffs (+11 to realize their potential).

“If Cox is such a horrible manager, then why is he headed for the Hall of Fame?”

Because travesties happen?

“Why do his peers, fellow coaches, and his players (both current and former) rave about him nonstop?”

Ive explained this before - a combination of ulterior motives of varying kinds and lemming syndrome

“I hope to see some discussion about the exciting moves that JS is planning for this offseason.”

Nathan seems to be the only one that understands that the reason I keep coming back to the Cox issue is that there is no move that JS can make that would be exciting save the firing of Cox. Until then, any other moves JS makes or doesnt make are absolutely irrelevent - until the line to the anchor is cut the ship can not set sail no matter how big an engine you give it or what kind of fancy cargo is loaded on board

By KC

November 13, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this

Matthew:

I agree will all 4 of your recommended moves… but just two things.

First, I don’t think we’ll get Linebrink plus a “top level” prospect for Giles. They may be willing to throw something into the deal, but it won’t be a top-tier prospect.

And of course when it comes to Andruw… if the Braves get the clear impression that Jones/Boras are going to be asking for too much, then I think ATL should try to trade him. However, that will prove difficult… maybe impossible.

First, JS would have to find a deal worth making for Andruw, while having to limit his dealings to teams to which Andruw might be willing to accept a trade. And finally, the Braves would then have to convince Andruw to accept the deal.

If the Braves come to a point this winter where they’re convinced they won’t be able to keep him next winter… then I think JS has a responsibility to try and trade him (if the right deal presents itself). But again, trading him would be extremely difficult if not impossible thing to do.

As for re-signing Ward and offering Glavine a reasonable contract for a 41 year old lefty with ERA of close to 4.00… I’m right there with ya. If he wants 10-12 million, then he should re-sign with the Mets.

By Robert

November 13, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this

“If you think everything about this organization is so #$#@^@#-ed up… then why does it give you enjoyment to follow this team???”

I dont really think everything is that screwed up. I think there is one huge problem - get rid of that, and the rest is tinkering

By BB FAN

November 13, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

Robert,

All of those “Whay the Hell” questions were for sarcasms only.

However, how can you say that Mazzone is one of the best pitching coaches ever when his pitching staffs have only won 1 WS ring? And it was Leo’s pitching staff that gave up too many runs in the post season.

Anybody could have looked like a great pitching coach with the starting staff he was given by JS. Smoltz, Glavine and Maddux would have been great pitchers no matter what.

Mazzone’s training regimens didn’t help the following pitchers stay healthy: Avery, Smoltz, Odalis Perez, Ligtenberg, Seanez, McGlinchy, Horacio Ramirez, Paul Byrd, Damien Moss, Mike Hampton and many others. So that regimen must have been just dumb luck.

His philosophy was not too great for Schmidt, Wainwright and actually Glavine. Glavine recently changed his philosophy from pitching outside (which was Mazzone’s) to pitching inside more. Maybe if he had changed his philosophy in the post season, the Braves would have 15 WS rings instead of one.

It’s true that Mazzone was able to help the careers of Hammond, Burkett and a few others. But he didn’t do s** for Kolb, Capellan, Devine, Marguis, Wade, Wainwright, Schmidt, Stanton, Boroski, Mulholland, Ashby, Chen, Paul Byrd, Reardon, Clancy, Roberto Hernandez, Shane Reynolds, Belisle and many others. So I guess his philosophy was just dumb luck too. Some of those guys did a lot better under the training of anybody other than Mazzone.

Mazzone actually never was able to develope a lights out closer either. And he was never good with rookies except maybe Avery.

In fact, yes, it was all Mazzone’s fault because his pitching philosophy was not good enough in the post season.

Mazzone didn’t do s** with Baltimore’s staff last year. In fact some of them took a step backwords.

There we go, I have figured out why the Braves have actually won only one WS ring the last 15 years. Leo F@&ckin’ Mazzone. Thank god he gone now.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 13, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this

no chop zone, we will get chipper properly aligned. he will come to your ballpark and he will hit like no one else can hit against your team and then he will name his next son, citipark.

now, grinch - jouranlist cannot explain the operation of these wheels but they were all over the place this weekend. they spin while the vehicle remains still. also, attracts babes.

now, sas shoes. yes, flabravesgirl, jimmy smith thinks sas shoes may be the right answer. not an attractive shoe. won’t see a swoosh on there - but may do the trick for chipper. now, can someone install some cleats? what size shoe does chipper wear? grandmother shoes are not made in very large sizes. we may have to go back to red goose shoes. oh, the humanity!

By BB FAN

November 13, 2006 02:52 PM | Link to this

Robert,

FYI. Lopez and Smoltz were not healthy for the post season in 1999. Lopez and Glarraga both missed the entire post season. And Smoltz was pitching while he was hurt! The guy had changed his arm angle a number of times just so he could pitch as much as he did. He was pitching in pain all year!

By Lew

November 13, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

The points made about the Mets’ stadium naming and tv network are interesting. Now you know why the Braves’ payroll is so low. Didn’t the Braves used to have a baseball network? Weren’t we once America’s team? Maybe we need a new network and Ted Turner should pay the Braves $20 million a year for making his name public. Or maybe we should name the stadium Skip and Pete’s Stadium and then THEY can pay the Braves $20 million a year. We’re just going about the financing the wrong way. We need a new CFO, that’s all.

By BB FAN

November 13, 2006 03:00 PM | Link to this

Robert,

Christ, you actually do believe your conspiracy theories about why everybody in baseball just “pretends” to think Cox is a good manager so that: 1. the Braves keep him because he’s really not good. And 2. So that it doesn’t give the Braves players any reason to play better in the post season?

That seals the deal pal. You are an idiot.

By ncscoots

November 13, 2006 03:02 PM | Link to this

jjs, if toes are not to be trifled with (and I agree), then what not to do with camber, as in, “camber is not to be __ with.” I think this is a subject of some importance, so I look forward to your reply. Toe(s) and camber, oh the alignment!

By BB FAN

November 13, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this

Robert,

Christ, you actually do believe your conspiracy theories about why everybody in baseball just “pretends” to think Cox is a good manager so that: 1. the Braves keep him because he’s really not good. And 2. So that it doesn’t give the Braves players any reason to play better in the post season?

That seals the deal pal. You are an idiot.

By The Grinch

November 13, 2006 03:15 PM | Link to this

FBG, I was just being silly (perish the thought!). While I’m not a big fan of mustard/pickle-type stuff, I expect you would like the Cuban they serve at Happy Herman’s (next to LeFont Tara theatre and the big Wolf Camera shop on Cheshire Br. rd.). They make pretty good sandwiches in general, and you can take in an artsy movie next door if you’re so inclined.

You may be on to something with the SAS shoes, Jimmy; they seem to work well for British commados. (rim shot). If these spinning wheels are babe-magnets, and Baby Seal is a babe magnet, how do you find time to chat with us lowly mortals? I would think you’d be huffing on an oxygen tank right about now.

By David O'Brien

November 13, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this

Robert, sorry, dude, but you really came up on the wrong side of the argument in your contention that the ‘97 Marlins weren’t loaded. You won’t find one person, not a player from another team or that team (including Sheffield), manager, broadcaster, writer or most fans who won’t contend that was a loaded team. You’re just wrong. It’s OK, man, you can’t be right all the time. But to keep arguing it, you just look more stubborn and silly. I covered that team, and remember players or coaches from three different teams in spring training telling Leyland or Sheff during spring training that the Marlins would be in the World Series (they were like 25-6 in spring training, something ridiculous)

Team had Sheffield, Bobby Bonilla (still a force at the time), Moises Alou, Charles Johnson (arguably best all-around catcher in the game at the time), Devon White, Edgar Renteria, Jim Eisenreich (best pinch hitter in game at the time) and they added Darren Daulton and Craig Counsell in summer trades. And a pitching staff that included Kevin Brown, Leiter, Alex Fernandez, Livan Hernandez, closer Robb Nen …

Man, come on, you look ridiculous saying that team wasn’t loaded. Ri-di-cu-lous.

Give it a rest. Get back to bashing Cox, something you do best.

By David O'Brien

November 13, 2006 03:22 PM | Link to this

Oh, and Cliff Floyd was on that team _ and didn’t even make the 25-man World Series roster.

By The Grinch

November 13, 2006 03:27 PM | Link to this

Lew, I’d put Ted or Skip & Pete’s name(s) up on my website for just a few grand. I think that’s a better deal for all involved.

Scoots and Jimmy, I nominate the word “fribble.” Camber is not to be fribbled with. If that’s too obscure, then “dallied, dabbled, twiddled, doodled,” etc.

By BB FAN

November 13, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

Robert,

I just noticed this comment of yours:

“Not much quarrel with 91 or 92 (altho a better managed player might not have been so easily deeked on the basepaths)”

That proves that you just hate Bobby Cox for no reason. How the hell is it Cox’s fault Smith got tricked at 2B???????????????????????

Smith screwed up but it’s Cox’s fault?

Yeah, you’re some genius, Robert. I mean come on, you’re really making yourself look like an imbecile now!!!!!!!!

By ncscoots

November 13, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this

Grinch, excellent words all, but perhaps we’re looking something a little more alliterative, a “c” word to go with “camber” as “trifled” goes with “toes”. However, jjs would be the one version of the truth in this matter, and I certainly bow to his judgment!

BTW, got a hoot out of the “burly-not-svelte” remark…you rock, kid.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 13, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this

“seals the deal”? yes, precisely! seals are the real deal much like holyfield - only really, the real deal. seals are quite intelligent.

scoots poses a good question … what of camber? dob has good suggestions but we will probably need to take a pole. still, one need not clamber to correct camber for it is the toe that speaks to the heart of the problem. and toes are not to be trifled with. just as caster and steer and stagger are not to create undue concern for there is always the stagger gauge (not what grinch is thinking - used by mechanics not police officers) and the bump steer gauge to keep a player on the field unless there is a discrepancy in the number of toes … just a rumor - not sure how many toes on this particular player (or on mccann who is said to have hurt both toes earlier). this journalist relies on dob’s report from the locker room that toe normality is the rule of thumb with uh, chipper. toe? thumb? oh, the humanity!

grinch, journalist has learned to pace journalist’s self with the babes. endurance and stamina are to be highly valued - no guages necessary. ask any babe attracted by spinning wheels or baby seal. after the initial attraction, they become attached to jimmy smith like magnets. journalist hopes this explanation has been helpful.

By journalist jimmy smith

November 13, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this

grinch, this journalist is not familiar with the term fribble. perhaps that is a north georgia thing? scoots is right -a “C” word is needed. camber must not be castered? this journalist thinks chipper may not know about caster and camber unless it’s on a horse. yes, toes on a horse (look it up). oh, the humanity! we must take a pole.

By David O'Brien

November 13, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this

Grinch, I live about 10 minutes from Tara and Happy Herman’s, but have never been in Happy Herman’s. Good to know it’s a solid place. I’ll have to try it.

If you want a great Cuban sandwich, or just great Cuban food in general, you MUST try Havana Cafe on Buford Highway, right around the corner (they practically share a parking lot in back) from Fuzzy’s, that great dive bar/restaurant on N. Druid Hills Rd., just off I-85.

Havana is cheap and authentic, a dive where you order at the counter. You can eat a plate of great grub for about $7-9.

OK, I just posted a new, lengthy blog. Please go over.

By The Grinch

November 13, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

Why thank you, scoots; you’re far too kind. How about “Camber should not be kowtowed to.” Not the right letter, I know, but wouldn’t be noticed if delivered orally. Or how about cosseted? Coquetted? Oh, the thesaurity!

Jimmy, it is good to know that women who would appear shallow enough on the surface to be attracted by shiny, spinning things would actually eventually be won over by a man of letters such as yourself. It gives me a renewed confidence in womankind. It also speaks well of yourself in being able to “seal the deal.”

By Robert

November 13, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

This is hopeless. Y’all think that the 97 Marlins had a better roster than the 97 Braves.

Why pray tell, did the Braves finish 9 full games ahead of the Marlins?

You want to say that Brown, Leiter, AFernandez and LHernandez are the equal of or better than Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Neagle?

Why are there 3 future HOFers on the latter list and 1 long shot for the HOF on the former?

“That proves that you just hate Bobby Cox for no reason. How the hell is it Cox’s fault Smith got tricked at 2B???????????????????????”

That play was not entirely Cox’s fault. Howeever, basereunning is a fundamental baseball skill.Fundamentally sound players make fewer baserunning errors than fundamentally unsound players.

Tell me who it is that decides how much time and effort is or is not devoted to fundamentals in spring training.

Maybe a few more baserunning drills instead of cud chewing drills, three run home run drills, and hitter your number two hitter leadoff drills

The extent to whichb y’all will recise history and the lengths you will go to to make excuses for Cox are incredible

The fact that other managers have made and will continue to make mistakes is not an excuse to keep a guy who makes more stupid mistakes at crucial times than any two other managers put together

The fact that another team was good, or very good, or even great, is not an excuse when the Braves were better on paper, but improperly prepared and badly managed

Here’s one for ya. For all the good Cox is said to be for the clubhouse, it is ALWAYS the other team that has better chemistry at crunch time.

WHY? WHY?

Why dont the OTHER team’s players fail consistantly in the post-season. Why do the other team’s pitchers step up - the studs and mediocre as well, when our studs cant get an out when they really need one.

Take two theories - one that in thirteen different years, 13 different things suddenly went wrong at the wrong time - contrast that to a unifying theory that says there was one underlying flaw there the whole time that consistantly got exposed in the playoffs. WHICH is the more likely to be true? Come on folks - 13 seperate independent events, all timed just right to explain Braves failure and exonerate Cox, or one common thread?

Put the raw numbers aside. Put the accolades from the so called pundits aside (youre more than willing to excoriate them when they dis a Brave). Put the data that has been presented to you in a biasewd and prejudged way ASIDE and ask yourself a simple basic question

The Braves teams of the 90’s - did they ultimately achieve their full potential. Yes or No.

The blame for underachieving ultimately rests on the field general. Cox

Period End of story. No apologies. No excuses accepted.

Did Cox get it done, or did he not?

Answer - He did not.

By The Grinch

November 13, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

fribble (transitive verb): to trifle or fool away. Of course, as a noun it is not synonymous with trifle. A trifle is also a dessert, and that would likey be much tastier than a fribble, which is a frivolous person, thing or idea. A frivolous person would make a whimsical dish, at best.