Braves

By Gerald

October 21, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

I’ll have to check out DBT. Tonight however it’s Paul Stanley in Atlanta! Hey, if I can’t see the Braves in the world series this year, I can at least see one of the best front men in rock history at the Tab!

By Brad in KY

October 21, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this

DOB

I think your claim that Leyland is the rare manager who can get his players to ‘turn it on’ in the postseason is probably false. Exhibit 1: Jim Leyland’s own Pittsburgh Pirates in the early 1990’s. If he has the ability you claim he has, then he picked it up somewhere between that time and now, because he certainly didn’t have it then…

I think the most we can say about baseball’s postseason is that the best team doesn’t always win because there aren’t enough games for the best team to show its ‘betterness’. Baseball is such that it’s really not unusual over any small sample of games (such as a 3, 5, or 7 game series) for an inferior team to win more games than a superior team. And in the postseason, the disparity between teams is very small, so it’s even more unpredictable. Given this line of thought, I agree with your reluctance to attempt to forecast what will happen in the upcoming Series…

By Robert

October 21, 2006 03:49 PM | Link to this

“When the popular sentiment is this overwhelming, my intuition says to go the other way. “

I must say, I about spit my Sprite up thru my nose when I read that.

Oh the irony, or as someone might say, the humanity

There it is. The elegant words I have been trying to find all this time.

By Tom A. Hawk

October 21, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

Geez, Dave, just making a joke on the last blog. You sure take an innocent joke personally sometimes.

Maybe I’ll drop in an adoring comment about Drive-By Truckers next time to appease you.

No, on second thought, I’ll just make sure not to address you directly any more.

Thanks for the new blog. Enjoy the Series.

By Robert

October 21, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this

The last two times I can remember that the World Series was thought to be this much of a mismatch were 1998 and (interestingly) 1990

In 1998, it was cuz the Yankees were THAT good

In 1990, the A’s were supposed to blow the Reds off the field, but were instead swept 4-0

Who managed that underachieving A’s team but Tony LaRussa

This Tigers team COULD be had - Leyland or no Leyland, the young pitchers and Kenny Rogers might wake up from the dream at some point and realize just exactly where they are - and at least momentarily freeze when they stare into the headlights

But Tony LaRussa aint the one to exploit this chance.

I loved the line in the last blog about how LaRussa realized Suppan was baffling the Mets. The guy gave up 2 hits in 7 innings. It did NOT take a law degree, or expertise in animal rescue, or 14 consecutive division titles, to figure out he was baffling the Mets.

Of course 5 walks in seven innings means that everyone including Suppan was baffled as to where the ball was going once it left his hand

Anyone remember Joe Cowley and his 9 walk no hitter?

By EEJAY

October 21, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this

It is no dream when the Tigers starting pitching had the best era in baseball this year. They shut down the best hitting team ever assembled according to the experts in the Yankees. Frank Thomas of the Oakland A’s desroyed the Twins pitching. He was 0 for 13 against the Tigers. They have already seen the big stage in New York. Both teams hit luls at the end of the season but thats the great thing about baseball. You never know. One thing is for sure. When they win the world series they will be the best team in baseball because they will have the trophy as proof. The best team on paper isn’t worth the ink it’s printed on.

By David O'Brien

October 21, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this

“It did NOT take a law degree, or expertise in animal rescue, or 14 consecutive division titles, to figure out he was baffling the Mets.”

You sure can be a smarmy, insufferable bore. Enjoy your discourse with Tom, genius.

By Jeff

October 21, 2006 04:31 PM | Link to this

With Wainwright clinching Game 7 for the Cards, it brings back memories of that incredibly bad trade for J.D. Drew and Eli What’s-His-Name? Three pitchers, including top prospect Wainwright, for an injury-plagued outfielder who flew the coop after the season.

Pitching is far too important to trade it for position players, especially outfielders, who are a dime-a-dozen.

By Robert

October 21, 2006 04:46 PM | Link to this

Let’s just sum things up

DOB Position Statement - “Everybody” considers Bobby Cox to be a great manager

DOB Axiom - When the popular sentiment is overwhelming, his intuition says to go the other way

By George, I think he;s finally GOT IT!

By Peter

October 21, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

Great to see a writer who’s actually interested in the WS because here it comes. The drone of the “national” media on why this WS isn’t as interesting because neither of the NY teams are involved. The only thing worse is having to listen to light bulb shaped head Joe Buck.

Two things..did you guys catch the item about Selig “trying to get FOX to schedule a day WS game next season? Shouldn’t baseball have that right? They don’t get the multimedia age at all. Saturday blackouts are another example.

The other is what would it look like now if the NL has won the All-Star game? How stupid would it be if the Tigers with their record wouldn’t have the home field advantage against the Cards?

By David O'Brien

October 21, 2006 05:15 PM | Link to this

DOB Axion: No one likes you.

By Bryan

October 21, 2006 05:27 PM | Link to this

Hank 3 at the 40 Watt last night… it was better then any DBT show and I am a friend of patterson’s.

By Paul Hamilton

October 21, 2006 06:22 PM | Link to this

I think Barry Bonds is completely insane for actually trying to break the record. It will be so controversial he will live to regret it. I am shocked that under 50% said they would hate to see him break the record. Such a shame. Talk about a time bomb waiting to blow up in someones face, including mlb.

By Lew

October 21, 2006 07:01 PM | Link to this

Paul-About 24% said they didn’t even care, so it wasn’t like the majority was in favor of him breaking the Hammer’s record. I, too, wish he would just go ahead and retire after this season It would be the right thing to do, just like Barry Sanders, who could have walked away as number one if he so desired. I don’t think Bonds will have enough class, though. I just read an AP story that said the Collective Bargaining Agreement could be finished next week. The old agreement expires Dec. 19. Baseball looks like it is on the road towards getting their act together (somewhat). DOB-I picked up Southern Rock Opera today in honor of your concert. Sounds pretty good so far, but I think I like Decoration Day better. Too early to tell, though.

By Carolina Lady

October 21, 2006 07:01 PM | Link to this

Bonds poll: that would be 48% of those who responded - influencing factors would be where was it taken, how many people responded (size of sample), HOW WAS IT WORDED. I don’t think it is establishes the fact - just my opinion. (I hope and pray that he does NOT! He is a cheat and isn’t worthy.)

By David O'Brien

October 21, 2006 07:01 PM | Link to this

Bryan, I’m upset I’ve been out of town for each of Hank III’s shows in past year in Atlanta.

But dude, come on, how can you say it was better than DBTs show. What, you called Patterson last night and compared notes?

Anyway, how was Hank III? Did he play all the stuff off that Straight To Hell CD?

By Robert

October 21, 2006 07:05 PM | Link to this

“DOB Axion: No one likes you”

Sticks n stones DOB

My message may not be popular, but neither is it untrue

Pick a town. Any town. Get out the white pages. Close your eyes, open that phone book, and point to a name

As long as you ARE NOT pointing at

Cox, Robert Joseph Paul, Tennessee, or Coach, Head

you have just identified one of the now 300 million plus Americans who would make a better Braves manager than the one we are stuck with at present

By jimmy

October 21, 2006 08:03 PM | Link to this

i cant for the life of me understand why everyone acts like larussa is such a genius. just because he wears sunglasses at night and looks mysterious and rubs his chin like he is deep in thought doesnt make him particularly smart. he has been a manager since 78 or 79 and has won the grand total of one world championship and i think 4 or 5 pennants. that is less than bobby cox and everyone around here thinks that cox doesnt have enough sense to get out of the rain. i just dont understand.

By The Grinch

October 21, 2006 08:13 PM | Link to this

Robert, you’re a trip.

KC, sorry; I was a bit drunk last night (surprise!), and I saw another post of yours with the “Top 15%” point elaborated again, and I suppose I went off a little too hard. I happen to think ERA is enormously important, much more so than wins and losses when evealuating a pitcher. However, like all stats it can occasionally be misleading. I did mention that Hudson has pitched some great games since he’s been here, I just tend to go more by gut feeling and I just don’t ever feel confident in him like I do Smoltz or Hampton. Maybe I’m missinterpreting his facial expressions and vibe as you say. Maybe he’ll be lights out the next three seasons. I hope so, for our payroll’s sake. I’m not saing the guy’s a worthless douche; I’m just saying he already makes me nervous and when his payroll doubles I’ll be even more so. No biggie. Anyhoo, sorry if I made you mad; sometimes I come off a little stronger than I mean to.

DOB, I’ve been wanting to check out Hank III. Which alblum (s) should I start with? I’ve heard his sound is pretty varied, but then so’s my taste.

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 21, 2006 08:13 PM | Link to this

Robert, still fighting the good fight I see. Man, at least you have conviction. That is more than I can say for most people.

Anyway, I pick the Tigers in five. However, my gut is telling me there will be a sweep. The Cards don’t have the pitching to stand up to the Tigers. They did beat the Mets and it wasn’t because of the Mets pitching. However, the Tigers have that same look that Boston had two years ago and the White Sox last year. They just won’t be beaten. Its their year.

By David O'Brien

October 21, 2006 08:27 PM | Link to this

Grinch, Bryan is probably a better authority on Hank III than me. I’m late to the game on him, only gotten into his stuff in the past year. I bought that “Straight to Hell” CD that came out last spring and played it to death driving all over the byways of Florida during spring training. Good, raw, rockin’ stuff. But he’s not for everyone. It’s rough, the language and all, but it’s real and his life’s a train wreck. Much of his stuff, maybe too much, is autobiographical, and it’s a bit scary. But again, it’s good stuff, and to hear him blast all of today’s hat-boy “country” artists and the Nashville commercial crap, is worth the price of admission.

I’ve also got “Lovesick, Broke and Driftin’” but not “Risin’ Outlaw.” I’d recommend “Straight to Hell.”

By StingerSplash

October 21, 2006 08:29 PM | Link to this

Have seen the DBTs three times. Last time was in Charleston, by the beach, and they put on a fantastic three-hour tour de force. Absolutely unbelievable. Also saw them with the late, great Slobberbone at Variety Playhouse. One of the best shows I have been witness too. DOB, nice call on MMJ and DBTs earlier. Two great, underrated, airplay-deserving bands. Tigers in 3. The Cards will just up and quit after being down 3-0.

By Andy

October 21, 2006 09:14 PM | Link to this

DOB—I have watched alot of “Lost” lately but why all the change in braves managers in the minor leagues and in the front office? Are the rats deserting the ship—if this is a really boring question please just ingnore it. But isn’t it strange all of this turn over in a braves system that is pretty steady? (Except when the corp. dorks let go of alot of the scouts)

By Carolina Lady

October 21, 2006 09:45 PM | Link to this

A note from Journalist Bob who continues to have computer problems:

“I’m basically recovered from my golfing misadventures and maple syrup overdoses … and look forward to a Tigers WS victory, having rooted for Kuenn and Kaline … in days of yore. A Yellow Jacket victory tonight would be nice too!

What reaction, if any, are we getting on the Blog with regard to the Cards winning the pennant, … or.the Mets losing?

Regards to David O’B, Jimmy, Scoots and all … and hope to be back in a week … at the latest!

Bob”

By journalist jimmy smith

October 21, 2006 10:04 PM | Link to this

that explains this cardinals lead … journalist bob is picking the tigers! and what of the most famous tiger of them all … ? now, sweet potato pie and cold milk. this journalist is quite happy tonight.

more baseball … jim leyland puts his pants on just like bobby cox. you put your right leg in … do the hokey pokey and shake it all about …

By Carolina Lady

October 21, 2006 10:22 PM | Link to this

“and what of the most famous tiger of them all … ?”
Tony?

By Tom A. Hawk

October 21, 2006 10:30 PM | Link to this

Don’t know what’s got you so testy, Dave, that you’re equating me with Robert, but I don’t think there’s any justification for it. But if I’m as big a detriment to this forum as Robert is, I’ll do everyone a favor and get the hell off.

By The Grinch

October 21, 2006 10:42 PM | Link to this

Who will you come back as next? Should be interesting.

Night, all; got a long day tommorrow. Guess this series looks to be more closely contested than we thought.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 21, 2006 10:52 PM | Link to this

tony tiger … a good guess. tiger woods also a good guess. ty cobb a good guess, too. bob must have watched ty cobb. now, how about the player named pie traynor? hof player - pirates. this is why the braves must acquire felix pie from the cubs over the winter. pie players are winners. not to be confused with “p” players who are not. now, harmony on this blog … where is the civiility? we must be kind to one another - except to you know who.

By 2007 Mets

October 21, 2006 11:20 PM | Link to this

Brave fans I have some bad news. I heard an interview the day after the Mets lost game seven. Minaya said minutes after that game he was with his staff laying down the game plan for the 2007 Mets. I quote “Anything less than a World Series championship is a failure”. We played a few games in the post season but we have little to brag about since we don’t have a title. brave fans have been patting each other on the back for 13 years of failure. We will re-group, re-load and come out kicking @ss in 2007.

By Bob

October 21, 2006 11:35 PM | Link to this

2007 Mets. Guess you guys can get ready for a “failure” in the coming year. You better spend the winter figuring out who is going to pitch for you with Pedro out till summer at best, Glavine probably moving on to another team and your closer in desperate need of help for his “head”. You guys couldn’t beat a team with all their stars injured and a pitching staff and bullpen totally depleted. With Wickman here for the year, I wouldn’t count my eggs too soon. You might be favored, but you know if the Braves are close…you will choke like you always do.

Go Cards.

By Lew

October 21, 2006 11:45 PM | Link to this

2007 Mets-I will forever remember the look on Carlos Beltran’s face as his knees buckled on strike three from Wainwright. He looked about to be incontinent. A perfect picture for your perfect (yeah, right) year. Carry it with you always.

By Drummerdad

October 21, 2006 11:59 PM | Link to this

2007 Mets, Is that you in there NLChamps? I think you should have just kept the old handle, but I am glad to see that you have come back to us for some help. Omar is really good. And of course he said that. To get so close and have your main man fall on his face at the hands of a former Brave would make you think resolutely for next year. Did you see Carlos having to pick up his cup off the ground after that pitch? Here’s where it gets really interesting. Try re-tooling every year and still winning 14 division crowns. It’s a tricky business. And that will become terribly apparent when one or more of your guys fails and the NY Media starts to eat him alive and not give him a shot at playing through it. (see the note above about the cup.) How should I spell A-Rod?

I think that Omar and Willie are class acts. And they have built an excellent team. Like several other teams in the league they have acquired former Braves to help them get over the hump in winning. Some of your Mets fans brethren should take note of how Omar and Willie handle themselves. Now tell me ‘07, what pitchers would you like to see Omar go after in the very near future? Talk to me. We’re all here listening. Even the Grinch will listen. We understand how you feel right now.

By David O'Brien

October 22, 2006 12:29 AM | Link to this

Wow, who was that in Anthony Reyes’ uni tonight? Guess that’s why he was the top prospect in their organization not too long ago. Don’t know why he’s not done anything like that consistently, but what a time to have the game of your life.

Can you imagine if the 83-win Cards knock off the Mets and Tigers back-to-back to win the damn World Series? Unthinkable, just about. But after tonight… all bets are off.

Stinger, three-fifths of Slobberbone is now in the band The Drams, who opened for DBTs last night. They were quite good, sounded a lot like Slobberbone, not surprisingly.

I just like saying Slobberbone. Eh-eh.

By nathan

October 22, 2006 03:38 AM | Link to this

DOB

Thanx for your reply on the “other” blog. I wasn’t being sarcastic with my question, just asking. I’ve also contended all along while I rip Bobby’s post-season managing, that the players should carry MOST of the burden for the failures. Also, I have always stood by Bobby for being the right guy, not only for the 162 game grind (though he still makes some head-scratching moves…like sticking with Kolb or Reitsma), but also for keeping the rookies and younger players from getting too high or too low. Look at LaRoche. A lot of managers might have given up on him in May (I damn near did). I believe he is too loyal at times. Take Jeff Blauser for instance. That guy was “given” the SS job every year waaaaaaaaaaay too long.

Speaking of Blauser, what’s the inside scoop on him getting “canned” after one season? Just not cut out for the job, or did he do something that upset the organization?

PS: gerald, how was the Paul Stanley show?

L8R

By Dale

October 22, 2006 05:20 AM | Link to this

What is up with Reyes hat? He wears it like an 85 year old man, come on dude, bend the bil.

By Bravo Nam

October 22, 2006 06:48 AM | Link to this

Robert Cox may be hung like a donkey, but no need to have spent the past three months bagging the man just because he’s got one bigger than yours!

Robert (JITB) You wrote: “Robert, still fighting the good fight I see. Man, at least you have conviction. That is more than I can say for most people.”

I think you give the little fella waaay too much credit.

DOB and Tom A. Hawk

Have to agree with Tom. You were way too harsh equating him with the toolboy Robert. That’s just about the biggest insult you could lay on anyone!

On to other things than the toolboy

Many on this blog say we don’t need a SP, DOB says we need at least another, and I say we need at least two. There is not one SP in our entire current rotation who doesn’t have a question mark over them.

Hampton- Coming back from surgery. I think he’ll be fine and do well…but no promises.

Hudson- Do I need to explain?

Davies- Ditto.

James- Will he be the pticher he was this year or will he spiral downwards in his sophomore year- a trend all too common.

HoRam- Inconsistency and injury.

Smoltz- The guy has a heart the size of Texas…and herein lies part of the problem. After returning to the rotation two seasons ago, both he and BC have ridden him into the ground a bit. Over 200 innings both years is not really how you should be treating the staff ace given his age and injury history. All of us are making the assumption that he’ll be fine. In everybody’s list of SPs for the coming year, he’s the one constant without a question mark. And I think by the way the Braves have managed him they think that too- but gee- one has to wonder what toll his workload of the past two years has taken on him. One thing is for sure- if the Braves make the playoffs and want to go deep, they better hope and pray Smoltz has pitched no more than 180 innings before the playoffs start.

Six SPs and in all but one case, significant question marks-the Braves will need a couple of reliable SPs this offseason- a horse and a no.2/3 type starter.

By Robert

October 22, 2006 08:50 AM | Link to this

Check this out from cbs sportsline

http://sportsline.com/mlb/story/9743621

Or as DOB said - Now all bets are off

The wind shifted again, and so did their predictions/opinions

Dawgz won, insects lost = it’s a good weekend

By Braves 20

October 22, 2006 09:10 AM | Link to this

First - never ever believe a travel agent who tells you that you’ll be able to see all the playoff games while you’re on a cruise - you can’t - but thanks to a dear friend who taped all the NL games for me. Second - I was two for three in predictions. Wrong about Delgado choking in the spotlight but right about Wagner doing so and Randolph getting outmanaged by LaRussa. Third - go Cards! Fourth - Bud Light - let’s please get rid of the stupid win the mid season exhibition game get home field advantage in the Series policy. That takes care of no baseball for seven days!

By Robert

October 22, 2006 09:35 AM | Link to this

“Speaking of Blauser, what’s the inside scoop on him getting “canned” after one season? Just not cut out for the job, or did he do something that upset the organization?”

I guess they thought he did a Blausey job as manager

Pa-pa-poom

By Robert

October 22, 2006 09:42 AM | Link to this

“but why all the change in braves managers in the minor leagues and in the front office? Are the rats deserting the ship”

Cuz it cant be the emperor’s fault, even when it’s the emperor’s fault

This organization will purge the season ticket roster (blaming the fans) before they banish Eeyore

By Metropolitan Man

October 22, 2006 10:06 AM | Link to this

Every time the Yankees don’t make the World Series again, we hear that it’s Yankee fans who are spoiled, who set unreasonable expectations.

Sometimes this even comes from the Yankees themselves, who like to raise the bar on those expectations before the season and then lower them to half-staff like an old pennant when they flame out again, another bonfire of the vanities.

This is the Yankees wanting to have it both ways, selling the same old hype and World Series tradition like it’s part of a season-ticket package, then scaling everything back when they aren’t good enough to get it done against a team like the Tigers.

Yankee fans are only doing what they’re told, believing what they’re told to believe.

George Steinbrenner tells them it’s all or nothing.

So does Derek Jeter.

The general manager and manager go right along with this most of the time, at least until the Yankees don’t make it out of another first round.

At which point Yankee fans are told about the glories of being Braves North.

Incidentally, this is going to be the fifth year out of the last six when a team with a payroll under $100 million wins the old Fall Classic.

It means that while other people can’t come close to spending like the Yankees - again, the Mets were more than $100 million behind them in payroll - the teams that are winning now are spending their dough on pitching a lot better than Cashman’s guys.

By Robert

October 22, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this

“At which point Yankee fans are told about the glories of being Braves North”

You are utterly delusional if you think the Yankees strive to be like, or aspire to, or model themselves after - ANY team, much less the Braves

“Braves North” would be taken as a total insult to anyone, player, fan, or employee, affiliated with the Yankees organization

In case you lost count, I think it’s 26 to 1 Yankees over Braves in championships

By Lew

October 22, 2006 10:26 AM | Link to this

Metro Dude-I’m looking forward to going to that game with you, Grinch and anyone else from the blog, but Dude, I will carry that look on Beltran’s face taking strike three, for a long time. I know you’re less than happy about the NLCS outcome, but I’ve got to tell you, for me it was wonderful. Ask Grinch how my play by play went. You are right about the Yankees, though. Maybe they should hire Shaun as GM. At least he has a plan, Robert, as usual, I can’t disagree with everything you say. Go Dawgs-salvage that season.

By Robert

October 22, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this

Man, I think next week is gonna be ugly, but gotta hope

Losing to Tennessee, Florida, AND Tech in the same season (a distinct possibility at this point)

This could be the start of some trying times for the UGA faithful (a quarterback named COX - Jesus wept)

By Metropolitan Man

October 22, 2006 11:08 AM | Link to this

I’m with you Lew. Im very proud of the season, and miffed at Beltran for not swinging. I dont care if he swung and miss or checked his swing and got called out, but a $119 million dollar man does not go out with the bat on his shoulders, thats just unexceptable. J. Thompson you must be new. I keep up with all NY and ATL sporting news more than any other. Get used to me posting things from NY and GA. Sorry I’m too well rounded for you and can think about more than 1 place at a time.
And Lew, whenever you are ready to coordinate these games for next year let me know. I want to see real fans and make the METS-braves the rivalry it used to be. Oh Robert I didnt write that stuff, it was cut, copied and pasted here from the NY Newsday. Unlike J. Thompson I thought you guys might want to be informed. Remember keep your friends close and your enemies close.

By Metropolitan Man

October 22, 2006 11:17 AM | Link to this

KEEP YOUR FRIENDS CLOSE AND YOUR ENEMIES CLOSER!

By kreedham

October 22, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this

I don’t remember if you ever mentioned country but alot of the bands you like have a country flavor. Anyhow got the new Vince Gill 4 CD set (great price of $17.99 plus tax) and it’s really, really good. Four themes 1)Rockin 2) Groovy 3) Country and 4) Bluegrass. #1 is the best. It’s still country but does rock, #2 is pretty good with Bekka Bramblett, Cheryl Crowe, Alison Kraus, Diana Krall,Bonnie Raitt and others on it. #3 and 4 are good too but not the match for the first two. Check it out!

By Amber

October 22, 2006 11:43 AM | Link to this

This is probably going to be a stupid question, but I have to ask… DOB, you are the same DOB who makes an occasional appearance on ESPN?

I was thinking the odds of 2 DOBs both in baseball were slim, but hey - we thought the Cards dispatching the Mets were slim chance too.

If so, then it just slays me to think of you rawkin’ out to DBTs! In a good way - my dad likes a very diverse bunch of music. I think I’d pay money to see him at a Scissor Sisters concert!

OK, I’m done being weird!

By KC

October 22, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this

Amber… nope, he’s not the same guy.

By KC

October 22, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this

Hey, has anyone here done any snow skiing in North Carolina? I’m thinking about going, but I’m just wondering if any of the slopes up there are worth the drive from ATL. +

By Robert

October 22, 2006 12:13 PM | Link to this

I am walking thru ankle deep snow on a crisp December morning. Chris Reitsma is leading me toward the barn on his Minnesota farm. He opens the doors and we amble over to Bobby Cox’s pen. Bobby is curled up on a bed of fresh straw, but when he sees us he gets to his feet ,comes over, and sticks his head thru the slats. Reistma gently pats and massages his ears with one hand while offering him some apple slices dipped in honey with the other

Reitsma - “Yeah, I got the old boy for the winter. Least I could do you know. After all, he has lengthened my career considerably”

Me - “But how can you afford the upkeep?”

Reitsma - “Cmere I’ll show ya”

As we walk over to a storage area, a black SUV stops in front of the barn and Chipper and Andruw Jones step out and walk over to join us.

Reitsma opens the doors to the storage area, revealing a veritable cornucopia inside, inside bags of oats stacked to the ceiling, bushelfulls of apples and carrots, no less than ten crates of sugar cubes with a large handmade card on top of the stack, and, curiously, a bag of onions

“The carrots are from from Rafy. The oats are from Wohlers. Blauser and myself take care of the apples. Here, read this” he says, handing me the card off the stack of sugar cubes

“We “eight (and oh)” at your expense, now you eat something sweet on us. Come bacl soon, we miss you” - signed by the 96 and 99 Yankees team - I am impressed

I ask about the onions

“John Rocker sent those. Cant quite figure out what he meant, but watch this”

Reitsma picks up an onion and throws it towards Cox. Bobby watches disinterestedly as it bounces low and outside. Andruw swings at it and misses. This is repeated twice more in rapid succession

The fourth onion is on target. Bobby rears up and kicks at it with his hind legs, sending a screaming line drive towards the open barn door. Suddenly, from out of nowhere, Andruw is seen running into the frame. He leaps against the barn door and catches the onion.His relay throw back to Reitsma grazes against Chipper’s pantleg. Chipper goes down in a heap and is immediatley put on the 15 day disabled list

Reitsma casually tosses one more onion towards Cox, who kicks at it and sends it on high arc towards the silo three cornfields yonder

“It’s gonna be a long winter” says Chris, as he closes the barn door

By David O'Brien

October 22, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this

kreedham, you never heard us mention country? really? i’m gonna take a guess that you haven’t ready many posts here on the Braves and the Man in Black, then. There have been days in the past six months where Johnny, Merle, Hank, the Possum, Patsy Cline, et al, have been discussed more than baseball (if you don’t believe me, ask some of those who complain)….

Amber, no, not the same. But to take the level of coincidence even higher, the “other” David O’Brien is a friend of mine and we spent several years confusing the hell out of people while he was a Marlins broadcaster and I was the Marlins beat writer for the Sun-Sentinel. Imagine how many screwups occured at hotel front desks, how many reservations got messed up, how many phone messages he got for me and I got for him. In fact, I just got one yesterday from an ESPN producer calling to confirm a lunch date with the other DOB. He’s a good dude, by the way. Not cranky like me. But he’s not a huge fan of DBTs or Merle Haggard, either…

Bravo Nam, Tom A Hawk, I don’t recall “equating” Tom A with Robert. I thought I just made a dismissive comment about how they could continue their discourse and mentioned to Tom A that I was very busy and was having trouble getting a new blog up, something like that. If I did equate them, then it was a mistake along the lines of my Yanks/Red Sox World Series typo, done strictly because of utter fatigue. I’m rested now after finally getting a full night’s sleep, and I can tell you I would never lump with Robert any of our other regulars (and I don’t consider one banished tool who’ll go unmentioned here a regular in any way). Robert and Shaun are both unique, for God is merciful.

By KC

October 22, 2006 12:20 PM | Link to this

Interesting question… Which Braves do you think will improve and have better seasons? Who will fall short of last year’s production?

Here are my guesses: (+ improve / - decline)

Brian McCann + (I don’t know if he’ll top the batting average, but I’m guessing 30 homers, 100 RBI next season)

Jeff Francoeur + (He showed a little more patience over the last couple months of the season. That’s a very good sign heading into next season.)

Andruw Jones + (It’s a contract year)

Tim Hudson + (I think he’ll bounce right back. Besides, he can’t do much worse, can he?)

John Smoltz + (I think with an improved bullpen, he’ll win at least 18 games.)

Adam LaRoche + (He seemed to really come into his own in the second half. I look forward to a full season of the new and improves Rochy)

Matt Diaz - (I’m not sure he can duplicate that batting average. However, if he gets more playing time, he should put better all around numbers up. His playing time will depend on whether or not the Braves add a leadoff hitter in LF)

Edgar Renteria +/- (I suppose I expect about the same kind of production next year)

Chuck James + (It’ll be nice to watch him for a full season)

Bob Wickman - (Don’t get me wrong. I think he’ll be great next year. It’s just that he was darn near perfect as a Braves this season and I don’t think it’s realistic to expect that of him again.)

Chipper and HoRam depend entirely on health.

By Lew

October 22, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

Metro Dude-The Mets (according to the 07 schedule in Chop Talk magazine) play in Atlanta over Labor Day weekend-the same weekend as DragonCon, which I usually go to because I do Sci-Fi/Fantasy aret. I will be staying with Grinch and would like to go to at least one game at the Ted. We’ll get it figured out and we can all get tickets together. You’re right-nothing like an old fashioned rivary. I think KC mentioned interest, too. DOB-A friend of mine up here works for the local classic rock station and saw Greg Allman the other night. He says the Toler Bros. were backing him up and they started of with Midnight Rider. He said it was the best Greg has sounded in years and they did several Allman songs. He’s going to send me the play list later.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 22, 2006 01:29 PM | Link to this

slobberbone? a blogger? not sure who this slobberbone is but journalist has an idea. american league, right? now, the young pitcher for the cards can wear his cap any way he wishes if he can pitch like that. maybe we can flatten the bills of some braves caps and see if it helps. now, lew coming to town … letwan’s mama will bake a pie. must get in touch with letwan …

By Metropolitan Man

October 22, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this

Thats the plan Lew. The closer that date approaches then we baseball fans can get together and heckle each other. Next season I’m even gonna take a couple of games in at SHEA so I wont be so outnumbered like every year here in Turner. But I did notice more METS fans finally showing up, we have bandwagon fans also. (not many)

By David O'Brien

October 22, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

Yes, DOB is. And you’re a pathetic wuss.

Now, to real adults: Lew, I’m not surprised on that report about Allman. He sounded really good at the Ga. Music Hall of Fame thing, and he was phenomenal when I saw him sit in for a few songs _ includng Statesboro Blues _ with Gov’t Mule not quite two years ago at Tabernacle.

By MEB

October 22, 2006 05:00 PM | Link to this

What a shame the Steelers lost a home game in OT at the Georgia Dome today. Speaking of bandwagon fans, much like the Red Sox and Yankees, the Steelers have them all over the country.

By Lew

October 22, 2006 06:16 PM | Link to this

Now Stinky-Don’t be dissin’ Ricky Martin. He lived La Vida Loca, Dude.

By Shaun Payne

October 22, 2006 06:32 PM | Link to this

Interesting question… Which Braves do you think will improve and have better seasons? Who will fall short of last year’s production?

I don’t see any key players due for much of a decline. Maybe Wickman, but at 37 he was great for the Braves. Chipper and Renteria may drop off some, but they are obviously great players so they’ll remain very productive. The Braves are in good shape if even half of their young pitchers come through. And who knows what Schuerholz could pull off this winter?

One of my favorites, Rob Neyer over at espn.com, says the 2007 Braves could be next year’s version of the 2006 Twins. I agree with that. They are missing a Johan Santana, but have a Smoltzie.

Of course, they need to stay healthy, but it’s kindof pointless to say that—the teams that win are usually the talented and lucky.

The offense should remain in the top 3 or 4 in runs and I see no reason why the pitching can’t jump to the top 5 or 6 in fewest runs allowed.

By Shaun Payne

October 22, 2006 06:35 PM | Link to this

It is hard to imagine Wickman posting around 1.04 ERA all season As long as he keeps pounding the strikezone, he’ll be just dandy. Two walks in 26 innings…outstanding.

By 2007 Mets

October 22, 2006 06:38 PM | Link to this

Lew, I know you’re a Met hater and all but I got to think you’re stupid or something. Last I checked your braves didn’t even play .500 ball. You’ll spend the rest of your off season jerking off and trying to think of clever things to write. But regardless of your post I’m sure you’ll ignore the reality of your season and how the Beltran and the Mets sent you and your team packing. So keep jerking off A-HOLE.

By Shaun Payne

October 22, 2006 06:51 PM | Link to this

Beating a decaying OBP horse

Here’s a good way to think about on-base percentage:

The best way to guarantee that you’ll score at least one run is to get your first batter of the inning on or for him to hit a homer, right? Sure there are other ways to score. And sure, if your leadoff hitter gets on, it doesn’t necessarily mean you are going to score. But getting a hitter on before there are any outs is the best offensive situation. Keep in mind that getting on-base includes hitting a homerun (HR count in on-base percentage).

What is the best way to increase your chances that your hitters that leadoff an inning get on base? Load your lineup with as many high on-base guys as possible. Having just your number 1 hitter with a high on-base percentage is not enough because he may only leadoff an inning once a game. But if almost every hitter is like a number one hitter (in terms of a high OBP), your chances to score are going to be great.

No matter what kindof offensive philosophy you take (smallball or BillyBall or longball or whatever), I think we would all agree that the best way to greatly increase your run-scoring chances is to get your first batter of each inning on base (again, keep in mind that homeruns count as getting on-base). Well, the best situation would be your leadoff hitter getting a homerun, but you at least want him to get on base any way possible; you want him to avoid an out and get on base.

By Stinky

October 22, 2006 07:31 PM | Link to this

“By David O’Brien

October 22, 2006 12:29 AM | Link to this

….I just like saying Slobberbone. Eh-eh.”

By David O'Brien

October 22, 2006 08:17 PM | Link to this

OK, so Sparky Anderson is brought to the interview room tonight, and he’s rambling all over the place with his answers to a variety of topics, mostly related to the Tigers. And he’s asked, “Is it bittersweet on any level that Alan Trammel was fired a year before this happened.”

And here’s the man’s answer (remember, he was asked about Trammel):

“When you sign a contract, I think you sign to be fired. I certainly got it and I don’t know … Bobby Cox got it, and Tony got it. And I’ll tell you what, right now, if you want to know something, Bobby Cox and Tony La Russa, if we had to vote today, you would have to vote one of the two the greatest manager of all time. You’re not going to give Connie Mack that, because he used to leave after the third or fourth inning if things were bad. The elevator girl was waiting for him. “Those two guys, just look, somebody asked me about Bobby Cox, and he’d won 14 straight divisions _ if I could ever do that. I said, yeah, give me a .38 and I’ll stick it in my mouth and when I pull the trigger I’ve done it. You ain’t going to do something like that. “No, these are two unbelievable managers.”

OK, he kinda lost me on the .38 bend in the answer, but I thought I’d share that with you folks.

By Lew

October 22, 2006 08:22 PM | Link to this

2007Mets-Aside from proving right there that you aren’t much better than you claim that I am, you make me wonder-Do you realize that when I said Beltran looked incontinent when he stared incredulously at that called third strike I meant that he looked like he was about to wet his pants? Rant on-I know it makes you feel important and covers up your pain at the realization that the Mets weren’t all that.

By David O'Brien

October 22, 2006 08:43 PM | Link to this

Oops, forgot I needed to put a space between paragraphs for the blog (I’m sitting here writing regular stuff for the paper and we don’t have the space thing there). So here’s that quote from Ramblin’ Sparky, a little easier to read:

“When you sign a contract, I think you sign to be fired. I certainly got it and I don’t know … Bobby Cox got it, and Tony got it. And I’ll tell you what, right now, if you want to know something, Bobby Cox and Tony La Russa, if we had to vote today, you would have to vote one of the two the greatest manager of all time. You’re not going to give Connie Mack that, because he used to leave after the third or fourth inning if things were bad. The elevator girl was waiting for him.

“Those two guys, just look, somebody asked me about Bobby Cox, and he’d won 14 straight divisions _ if I could ever do that. I said, yeah, give me a .38 and I’ll stick it in my mouth and when I pull the trigger I’ve done it. You ain’t going to do something like that.

“No, these are two unbelievable managers.”

By JJMB

October 22, 2006 08:52 PM | Link to this

Man, Sparky had some players with the Big Red Machine. Pretty much steroid HGH free in those days. I think George Foster hit 50hrs at 185lbs.

By Stinky

October 22, 2006 08:54 PM | Link to this

“By David O’Brien

October 22, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

Yes, DOB is. And you’re a pathetic wuss.

Now, to real adults:…”

By ernesto

October 22, 2006 09:00 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB you probalby know this already, but just in case you didn’t here’s a metting of 2 of your faves

Kelly Hogan sings the part of Cassie on the Southern Rock Opera “Angels and fuselage” “Cassie’s brother” and one other I can’t remember.

Dig it.

By ernesto

October 22, 2006 09:00 PM | Link to this

Hey DOB you probalby know this already, but just in case you didn’t here’s a metting of 2 of your faves

Kelly Hogan sings the part of Cassie on the Southern Rock Opera “Angels and fuselage” “Cassie’s brother” and one other I can’t remember.

Dig it.

By David O'Brien

October 22, 2006 09:38 PM | Link to this

George Foster was The Man. With that black bat and those muttonchops, he was so sinister looking. Loved him as a kid, him and Dave Parker.

Kenny Rogers … talk about a total image and performance overall. This guy’s the king of Detroit, and pitching his butt off. To think where he was a couple years ago, one of the most hated guys in the game.

Hey, is there any particular reason Stinky is posting nothing but my lines? A point you’re trying to make, perhaps? Or just nothing to say?

By David O'Brien

October 22, 2006 09:40 PM | Link to this

Ernesto, I had no idea the lovely Miss Hogan sang on the DBTs tracks you mentioned, or any others for that matter. Damn, I knew she was the coolest, but that cements the status.

By David O'Brien

October 22, 2006 09:43 PM | Link to this

Why don’t you just send another whiny complaint to the folks who oversee the blog? That might make you feel better.

By Lew

October 22, 2006 09:50 PM | Link to this

AP just reported a tentative agreement by players and owners on a new Collective Bargaining Agreement. It should be finalized on Monday or Tuesday. It is supposedly a fve year deal. DOB-apparently the mosquitoes have escaped confinement again and are off their medication.

By JJMB

October 22, 2006 10:15 PM | Link to this

Yeah Dave, I would think the Detroit fans love Kenny Rodgers. How do the camera men like him now?

By Calvin

October 22, 2006 11:15 PM | Link to this

Mr. O’Brien, Good piece on Glavine. I was interested to see his thought process since Pedro will be out for most of next year. I doubt Glavine, an athlete, will take less than 10 mil to play next year. He is definitely in the drivers seat in terms of naming his price.

By David O'Brien

October 23, 2006 12:41 AM | Link to this

JJMB, they absolutely love the dude here. But he’s still got an edge with some media members, I tell you that. in the postgame interview room, he wouldn’t take questions from several Texas writers who’d written stuff I guess he didn’t like during the cameramen fiasco. Three of them asked questions and he said, ‘Next question.’ Hilarious. And quite awkward.

Anyway, he’s absolutely pitching his tail off. Becamse oldest starter ever to win a World Series game tonight, by more than two years. He’ll be 42 next month, and no other 40-or-older starter has won a game, just a couple of relievers have.

Did ya’ll know Rogers was born in Savannah, by the way? I didn’t, until I looked at the media guide tonight.

By Head Coach

October 23, 2006 02:38 AM | Link to this

Bobby Cox , one of the greatest managers of all time according to Sparky Anderson ? Gee , the blog idiocracy must be…………….. WRONG. again , lol. Yea for real , Cox is a first ballot shoe in for the baseball hall of fame. We have all been blessed to have him for so long and to have been privileged to witness the 14 year streak of consistent winning baseball.

By Calvin

October 23, 2006 04:28 AM | Link to this

Seems Kenny Rogers’ brilliant game 2 peformance is being overshadowed by what was on his hand in the first inning….

By Stinky

October 23, 2006 07:05 AM | Link to this

By David O’Brien

October 22, 2006 09:43 PM | Link to this

Why don’t you just send another whiny complaint to the folks who oversee the blog? That might make you feel better.

By Bravo Nam

October 23, 2006 07:29 AM | Link to this

DOB Didn’t think you meant to equate Tom with Robert…unfortunately, looks as though it upset Tom and he may not be back…while we’re still stuck with bloody Robert!

By the way DOB, really interested on the latest goss you’ve heard on the grapevine about Braves players to be traded and kept…and players on other teams the Braves are targeting.

By Tome Glavine is a union STOOGE

October 23, 2006 08:24 AM | Link to this

Even if something was on Rogers hand the first inning he still was lights out afterwards. Go Tigers!

By Roebrt

October 23, 2006 08:41 AM | Link to this

“OK, so Sparky Anderson is brought to the interview room tonight, and he’s rambling all over the place with his answers to a variety of topics …. I said, yeah, give me a .38 and I’ll stick it in my mouth and when I pull the trigger I’ve done it. You ain’t going to do something like that.”

DOB, show up at your local ER one night and start rambling like that. The guys in the white suits will be your buddies.

Sparky is a nice guy. Sparky could manage in his day, and Sparky has probabl;y forgotten more about baseball than I ever knew

Which is the problem really

The guy is OBVIOUSLY majorly senile

By Arkansas Hillbilly

October 23, 2006 08:54 AM | Link to this

Thanks for the DBT report. Guess I’ll go home and watch my “Live at the 40 Watt” DVD and wish……

Tired of my job and my wife Lucille, Tired of my kids Ronnie and Neil, Tired of the 68 Bonneville.

By Shaun

October 23, 2006 09:02 AM | Link to this

Come on everybody, give Robert a break. Everybody knows that if a team reaches the postseason and doesn’t win, it’s all the manager’s fault. That’s why Joe Torre, Ron Gardenhire, Bruce Bochey, Willie Randolph, Grady Little, and whichever manager losses the World Series all deserve to be fired over many of the managers whose teams did not make the playoffs. See the A’s got it! Am I right, Robert?

By Shaun

October 23, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this

Actually, Robert, isn’t this one of Bobby Cox’s best seasons. He didn’t cost the Braves any playoff games, right?

By Shaun

October 23, 2006 10:13 AM | Link to this

Obviously the Cardinals look like one of the worst teams ever to reach the World Series (maybe the worst, according to Dayn Perry).

But could it be this was just a fluke regular season for the Cardinals and they are actually one of the better teams in the NL. I mean, they won over 100 games in ‘04 and ‘05.

Also, a team could be very different from one part of the season to another. Maybe the post-season version of the ‘06 Cardinals are closer to the ‘04 or ‘05 Cardinals than the regular season Cardinals.

By ZB Pike

October 23, 2006 10:13 AM | Link to this

What about the Glavine rumblings? If we sign him, who is the odd man out of the rotation? It gets kind of sticky up there..??

(R)Smoltz (L)Hampton (R)Hudson (L)Glavine (L)James Davies Ramirez

This would give us additional trade bait for a LF or, if you put these 2 in the BP until an injury occurs (and you know it will)…we should be fine for the year? If you could get 5-6 with each starter, have these 2 great arms in the pen to get to Wick…might work?

By Lew

October 23, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this

Shaun, Dude-You’re more than one dimensional. It’s great. See, you didn’t even need obscure stats to make your point. We may carry on a real conversation, yet. I certainly look forward to it. It really is you, isn’t it? Kenny Rogers sure pitched a great game last night, didn’t he?

By Shaun

October 23, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this

Lew,

Yes. Rogers has been out of this world this post-season.

It’s kindof hard to bring up stats when you’re talking managers. You just have to look at results and look at what players and peers say about a particular manager and trust that they know what their talking about. The field manager is one of the few jobs where perception may be almost as important as reality—if a manager’s players think he’s great, he probably is great (unless he makes a ton of really idiotic strategic moves or personel moves).

But Robert doesn’t see it that way. I’m not sure how he evaluates managers other than their success in the post-season. A major flaw in his argument against Bobby Cox is that he’s given us no criterion for evaluating managers; he just points to the Braves’ failures in the post-season as evidence Cox is a bad manager. I think it takes more than that to judge a manager.

By Robert

October 23, 2006 10:29 AM | Link to this

Shaun - I have said before that NOT EVERY manager who doesnt win the World Series in any given year is incompetant or stupid or a buffoon. In fact not even most.

However, a manager who, on several occasions has had the best team, sometimes by far the best team, who doesnt have his team mentally ready to go in the playoffs, and who makes stupid in-game decisions with alarming frequancy besides, IS incompetent

A manager who repeatedly commits the same mistakes of poor preparation and similar mistakes in in-game strategy is incompetent

Bobby Cox is such a manager

If the results of this past season were to lead to Cox’s ouster, then in fact this would have to be seen as his best season, because it would then be the season where he helped the Braves the most

Think of it this way - How many thousand people paly in the World Series of poker? A whole bunch of em are very very good players. Only one wins every year. That one winner needs luck to be on his side. This doesnt mean that all the other skilled players are incompetent.

BUT, when you have a guy who consistantly gets more than his share of awesome cards, and who still manages to eliminate himself early year after year - then you can say that he isnt a good player, even if he is entered every year

The Braves have not had any better or worse luck overall than other playoff teams. And yet they are 1 for 14. And, on average, their playoff teams were way above playoff average (if you can follow what I mean)

The fact is that yall go gaga over the fact that the Braves made the playofs with a few of their recent teams - I dont see it. They were all good teams. The only year you could even question whether they should have been expected to make the playoffs was ‘03. Leo did a HECKUVA job with that staff to get them there. LEO, not Bobby

By Shaubert

October 23, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

Here you have the best of both Shaun and Robert. My name is Shaubert and I post occassionally when this blog needs some statistics and diatribe. For now, though, we will let Shaun and Robert talk to each other.

By ZB Pike

October 23, 2006 10:49 AM | Link to this

Leo Leo Leo

By Shaun

October 23, 2006 10:58 AM | Link to this

Robert,

So I guess probably half the managers who ever reached the post-season deserve to be fired. A lot of times the best team fails to win in the post-season in a playoff system, especially the expanded playoff system in place since ‘95.

Although Cox had great pitching and defense that increase chances for success in the post-season, he never really had a lot of pitchers that could go out and strikeout 8, 10, 15 batters a game. And pitchers’ strikeout rate is a huge factor for post-season success. So, if you want to blame someone, blame Schuerholz for not getting power-pitchers.

Also, keep in mind the Braves played in several playoff series that could have gone either way, both in the World Series and in earlier rounds.

The fact is that yall go gaga over the fact that the Braves made the playofs with a few of their recent teams - I dont see it. They were all good teams. The only year you could even question whether they should have been expected to make the playoffs was ‘03. Leo did a HECKUVA job with that staff to get them there. LEO, not Bobby

Are you kidding me? In ‘05 they started the year with Mondesi and Brian Jordan in the outfield and they had to call up a ton of rookies to fill voids at catcher, outfield and in the pitching staff. In ‘04 they lost Javy Lopez and Gary Sheffield, they started the year with Mark DeRosa at third (and not the Mark DeRosa of ‘06) and a starting staff led by Jaret Wright.

I do agree that managers get too much credit and blame, but I don’t see how anyone could say Cox is a bad manager. I can maybe understand average, just another manager,…but bad?

By Robert

October 23, 2006 11:00 AM | Link to this

“I think it takes more than that to judge a manager”

And I think it takes more than perception not backed by solid analysis of facts to laud a manager as brilliant

Shaun - a good manager takes his team at least as far as it’s on-paper talent suggests it should go

A great one takes them consistantly farther. A great manager’s teams are consistantly better at the END of the season than they were going into spring training - better because of the sage input of that manager

Cox has consistantly led his team to an earlier exit from the playoffs than the team’s talent suggested it was capable of

You are right in that perception is imprtant - Perception (not backed by hard fact) breeds and perpetuates itself, as in the case of Cox. You end up with a guy with a huge reputation, for NO APPARENT REASON

In the past 15 years, 3 Braves team went further than expected (91,92,03) - 1 went as far as expected (95) - The rest underachieved.

By your own just stated criteria, Cox is a flop.

This is bordering ridiculous. I cite evidence, you come back and say I cite no evidence. Obviously where I see white you see black and vica versa

The only way to prove one of us right would be to do the experiment. Is it unfair to ask for that opportunity?

Fire the d******* and try, just for ONE season, with someone, ANYONE, different, and see what happens

By Lew

October 23, 2006 11:01 AM | Link to this

Robert-Were you frightened by an authority figure when you were a kid?

By Lew

October 23, 2006 11:20 AM | Link to this

Robert-The fact is that Cox took the Braves to the playoffs 14 straight years. He took the Blue Jays to the playoffs his final year there. No one else has ever done this. Not Casey Stengal. Not Ralph Houk. Not Joe Torre, Tony LaRussa, Connie Mack, Felipe Alou, Dusty Baker, Earl Williams or Sparky Anderson. No one else. It would have been wonderful if the Braves had won more than one WS championship. No arguement there. 91 would have been nice. The same with 96 and 99. You can even argue (and I won’t dispute you) that the Braves SHOULD have won in those years also. However, just getting to the playoffs for a run at the title is an accomplishment. It’s like the lottery-if you don’t play, you can’t win. Now if the Braves had lost strictly from bad (second guessed) decisions every time they lost, I might somewhat agree with you. But the Braves players found a different way to under perform on all of these occaisions. Who knows why your best hitters don’t hit, your baserunners are thrown out by being decoyed. That pesky little Puckett makes a world class catch. That damn Leyritz has the audacity to hit a home run. Your HOF pitchers (Maddux and Glavine can’t get anyone out. It mystifies me how so much can go wrong. But in few, if any, of these situations, I don’t understand how you can blame Cox. It just makes no more sense than blaming Willy Randolph because Beltran took three strike without taking the bat off of his shoulder. You just have a fundamental problem with BC for some inane and inexplicable reason. It says much more about you than it does about Bobby Cox. It’s so mystifying (your attitude towards BC) that you even managed to get Shaun to quit talking sabremetrics. Doesn’t this tell you anything about your irrationality on this subject? Your obviously an intelligent person with (mostly) well thought out opinions. Your stance on this topic is totally lacking in logic, however.

By Robert

October 23, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

“Robert-The fact is that Cox took the Braves to the playoffs 14 straight years. He took the Blue Jays to the playoffs his final year there. No one else has ever done this”

Noone else has ever taken the best team in baseball so often and repeatedly crashed and burned at crunch time either

Cox gave an early indication of his World Series talents in Toronto, by the way

“Who knows why your best hitters don’t hit, your baserunners are thrown out by being decoyed” because they are not mentally prepared for playoff baseball

“Although Cox had great pitching and defense that increase chances for success in the post-season, he never really had a lot of pitchers that could go out and strikeout 8, 10, 15 batters a game. And pitchers’ strikeout rate is a huge factor for post-season success. So, if you want to blame someone, blame Schuerholz for not getting power-pitchers. “

Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz are ALL going to be inducted into Cooperstown. To claim that the Braves had inadequate pitching when they had these three year after year after year is - weird? (to stay cordial)

“Are you kidding me? In ‘05 they started the year with Mondesi and Brian Jordan in the outfield and they had to call up a ton of rookies to fill voids at catcher, outfield and in the pitching staff”

No, I am not kidding you. Gee, they happened to have some pretty capable rookies like Francoeur and McCann and Chuck James. How awesome a job Bobby did as Braves manager in stocking the minors with good talent

Look. The Braves have had an incredible combination of good to great talent on the field (good in their off years, downright scary great in their wasted peak years), a GM who is very shrewd when it comes to making trades and keeping the minor leagues stocked with talent, and a world class and highly underappreciated pitching coach in Leo Mazzone

With that trifecta in place as a foundation, the Braves could have stuck a retard in the manager’s uniform and still gone to the playoffs every year. And they did. And they went.

Had they had even an AVERAGE manager, they’d have 3 World Series titles. Had they had a great manager, they’d have more rings than fingers on a hand.

“Now if the Braves had lost strictly from bad (second guessed) decisions every time they lost, I might somewhat agree with you. “

The Braves lost from a lethal combination of frequant horrible in-game decisions (not second guessed, not first guessed, just outright dumb), combined with a lack of mental preparation due to their manager carrying over their no-emotions, no-worries,even keel, just relax, plenty of time, attitude from the regular season to the post-season

Not prepared for the situation and told to do the wrong things besides - it spelt doom every year except the one year that the pitchers were awesome three series in a row and the final opponent was led by a fellow twit

Please stop belittling the legacy and talents of the great Braves players past and present by making it seem that it was such a miracle that they went to the playoffs

Cox did a nice job during his tenure as Braves GM.

Mentioning his name and the Hall of Fame in the same sentence without a negative in their somewhere is utterly ridiculous

By rammerjammer

October 23, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this

DOB, your comment in the Glavine story - “But even at, say, $10 million, the left-hander would probably be too expensive for the Braves, unless much of it were deferred” is interesting in that you open the door to another back-loaded contract.

Are the Braves serious about that? I don’t know their finances, but seems to me they’d have to off-load Hudson to make room for Glavine.

By Shaun

October 23, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

Robert,

Again, you are assuming the most talented, best teams win in the post-season.

Here’s an article for you: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=betweenthenumbers/billybeane/060405

If you don’t want to read it, here’s an exerpt:

After any number of permutations of the twenty-six variables in our database, we identified three factors that have the most fundamental and direct relationship with Playoff Success Points. These variables are as follows:

Closer’s performance

Pitcher strikeout rate

Defense

So, there you go. These factors are more important than “on-paper talent.” So, you can blame Schuerholz for not building the kindof team conducive to winning in the post-season, but would the Braves have won in the regular season if they had tried to build their team that way? Maybe not. They probably got the best talent they could get along the way. It’s hard to imagine Schuerholz or Cox doing much more to put their teams in a position to win it all.

By Shaun

October 23, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz are ALL going to be inducted into Cooperstown. To claim that the Braves had inadequate pitching when they had these three year after year after year is - weird? (to stay cordial)

Smoltz is the only power pitcher in that group and, guess what? He’s had the most success in the post-season. Do you think that’s coincidence? It’s not about having good pitching or even awesome pitching. It’s about power pitching (along with a great closer and defense).

By Bravo Nam

October 23, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this

Shaubert I don’t know if DOB or someone on this blog keeps a record of the funniest blogs or comments made on this blog, but yours may possibly be the best ever. Great wit.

Lew I’m with you. It’s hard to believe that Shaun is Shaun- maybe it’s not- he justs sonuds so different from how he normally does- but you also could be right that Little Fella Robbie has so infuriated him that even he has been shocked into entering a sphere beyond sabermetrics!

But, I think you were a little generous with this comment: “You’re obviously an intelligent person with (mostly) well thought out opinions.” Little Fella is intelligent…you’re a positive thinker…a very positive thinker.

Penis Envy Robert You wrote: “Cox has consistantly led his team to an earlier exit from the playoffs than the team’s talent suggested it was capable of.”

Now I get it…so the Braves are the only team with talent that has failed in the postseason.

Changing topics Tom Show Me the Money Glavine is going to the HoF as a Brave, but what about Maddux (more games as a Brave, but two stints with the Cubs)?

By Stinky

October 23, 2006 12:33 PM | Link to this

No more mud-slinging, and I STRONGLY URGE THE REST OF YOU TO DO SAME.

I’m not going to sully this fine place anymore with the sophomoric back-and-forth.

Trust me on that.

Yes, DOB is.

I just like saying Slobberbone. Eh-eh.

Trust me on that.

Yes, DOB is. And you’re a pathetic wuss.

No more mud-slinging. Trust me on that.

I’ll be at the ballpark all week.

Trust me on that.

Now, to real adults:

I just like saying Slobberbone. Eh-eh.

Trust me on that.

By Bravo Nam

October 23, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this

Robert “Mentioning his name and the Hall of Fame in the same sentence without a negative in their somewhere is utterly ridiculous.” Hmmm, hasn’t the penny dropped yet? What about mentioning his name and Manager in the same sentence without a positive…maybe a little utterly ridiculous too?

By Lew

October 23, 2006 12:43 PM | Link to this

Robert-I really don’t know why I’m arguing with you. It seems like a waste of time. I must be really bored or something. There have been plenty of talented teams that haven’t won the World Series. Even the Yankees have lost in the series before, despite their 26 wins. Look at the talent the Yankees had this year and didn’t make it out of the first round. The Mets didn’t make it out of the second round. They were considered the two best teams in baseball this year. It doesn’t make either Joe Torre or Willie Randolph bad managers. Several years ago, Grady Little blew it leaving Pedro in too long. It still doesn’t make him a bad manager, despite his firing (which was a total overreaction). Having the most talented team in baseball just does not guarantee having a Championship season. It happens all the time. Not all the managers who have lost, even multiple times are bad managers. The Yankees consistently buy the best players available. They have Joe Torre, widely considereed to be one of the best. They still haven’t won a WS in years. Good teams get beat all the time. It just happens. Same in football. How about all of those Super Bowl teams from Minnesota and Buffalo? Just because the never won doesn’t make Marv Levy or Bud Carson bad head coaches.Like someone else said-There’s 29 managers who go into the offseason with a loss. It doesn’t make them worthy of your ridicule.

By Shaun

October 23, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this

Bravo Nam and Lew,

How’s that Baseball Prospectus article link for a little Sabermetrics?…back to my old self.

By Lew

October 23, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this

Bravo-I do believe Robert is an intelligent person. When he speaks about other sublects than Bobby Cox, he makes sense a lot of the time. However, he is seriously obsessed with his position on BC. It’s like I mentioned earlier, he has a problem with authority that would likely take a psychoanalyst to break through. It’s likely, also, that he will not change our minds on this topic and we will not change his either. Until the last couple of days he was able to resist the temptation and talked about other things-intelligently for the most part. He’s like an addict, though, and just couldn’t keep away from the allure that Cox bashing holds for him.

By Bravo Nam

October 23, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this

Stinky Some things never change…just like your buddy Robert. And like him, you’re back to your putrid little tricks.

Robert my middle name is Arrogant PE You continuously ignore every comment put your way by past and current managers, current and future HoFs, players and admin types from all of baseball that BC is a great manager. Obviously the Yeti, the pig that flies, Stinky and Elvis have all pulled the wool over their eyes!! But not yours. Clearly you are a man of insight, wisdom, intelligence and self-belief that leaves the rest of us in your wake…when is your inauguration?

By Lew

October 23, 2006 12:57 PM | Link to this

Shaun-Dude, you’re back. I’m glad to see you defeated your evil twin.

By Shauberty

October 23, 2006 12:58 PM | Link to this

My new name is Shauberty. I now offer the best of Shaun and Robert and Stinky, too. They don’t have much upside so my posts of their “best” are understandably brief. Shaun can talk to Robert and Robert can talk to Shaun and Stinky (you know who this is) can stalk DOB until he grows tired of being small and unimportant.

By Shaun

October 23, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this

Several years ago, Grady Little blew it leaving Pedro in too long. It still doesn’t make him a bad manager, despite his firing (which was a total overreaction).

Lew,

This is kindof off topic:

I agree with you that Little’s mistake doesn’t make him a bad manager, but I would say the Red Sox basically had to fire him. My argument is if they didn’t, it would have been too big a distraction for a team that obviously had a legit shot to win the World Series (as they did). Grady Little would have been the story throughout the ‘03-‘04 off season. Epstein and Co. would have been constantly answering questions like “Why didn’t Little get the axe?”. Every time he would have come out of the dugout, many fans would have booed him. Any time he made a pitching change or didn’t make a pitching change, he’d have to answer questions about Game 7 of ‘03—“Did you take this pitcher out because of that game?” or “Didn’t you leave that pitcher in too long, ala Pedro?” Unfortunately Little had to pay the consequences, but sometimes unfair things have to happen for an organization to become better off.

By David O'Brien

October 23, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this

Is anybody really still reading the redundant ramblings of Robert against the bad ol’ man that wouldn’t give him an autograph? Gotta tell you, I usually read almost every blog post, or at least skim over them. But I haven’t seen one new fact or compelling sentence from Robert, who unfortunately is wasting a good intellect on one tired subject. Dude, seriously, it’s a waste. I know I’ve stopped reading your posts (nothing personal, but seriously, when I’m busy like I have been in the postseason, when I read one of your posts I finish and I’m shaking my head going, is he serious? I mean, you’ve just completely jumped the shark with the Bobby stuff, man. you’ve lost me. Sorry. I know at least a few folks are still reading it, though, so carry on. But my friend, if you think Sparky sounds like he’s rambling, you better believe you’re coming across in a similar fashion to many of us.

SHAUN, since you’re a big Billy Beane guy, did you see the Q & A he just did with Alan Schwarz that’s online and will be in next issue?

This was the last question:

ALAN SCHWARZ: Obviously, one member of the team who won’t be back is Ken Macha, whom you fired a few days after the season. What do you look for in a manager? What role does he play in your organization?

BEANE: Bobby Cox, the way he protects his players, he’s the lightning rod when he needs to be. He’s quick to smile, very comfortable, very genuine. In my impression, you want to play for him, you know he’s on your side. I would say the same things about a guy like Joe Torre.

But it’s about talent. A baseball team is about the players. The great managers, and there are a lot of them out there, are good leaders and master psychologists at the same time. The idea that you can strategize your way with poor talent to a division championship, I don’t quite buy into that. If someone disagrees with me, so be it.

WELL, BILLY, SOMEONE DOES. His name is Robert, and he’s the only man in America who truly understands what makes a great manager. From Sparky Anderson to Billy Beane, they’re all wrong, all part of the conspiracy along with those writers who vote for Cox as manager of the year in order to keep him employed by the Braves so the teams they follow can keep beating them in the postseason (folks, I’m just repeating one of the theories Robert advanced a while back, when I asked him why 30 of 32 writers, two from each NL city, would vote Cox as manager of the year last year, the second year in a row he won the award).

By David O'Brien

October 23, 2006 01:10 PM | Link to this

Stinky … good stuff. Please, more.

By Bravo Nam

October 23, 2006 01:23 PM | Link to this

Lew Actually, I’ve tried to cope with Robert through using some humour. But, you’re right- he has surprised me with his non BC stuff which actually makes me wish he’d forget talking about BC altogether. Everything you said in your 12.50pm post was a gem- can’t add to it, so won’t.

OK, will leave Shauberty, Lew et al to fight the good fight. Caroline Lady…don’t let Robert upset you…not worth it…you can actually have some good fun at his expense when he talks about BC, because he just loses all perspective when he talks about his favourite guy.

I’m off to bed…late in the Nam…no Robert, you can’t join me.

By Robert

October 23, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

“Now I get it…so the Braves are the only team with talent that has failed in the postseason.”

No

And I do not consistantly ignore comments. In fact, I respond to them

Other teams have failed in the postseason. Other managers have failed in the post-season

No team and no manager have failed as consistantly, or as “spectacularly” as Cox and his Braves.

Just because one team or one manager did something one time doesnt mean it is ok or standard practice for aother team or manager to do that thing darn near all of the time

LaRussa comes close- which is why he is on my list of overrated skippers

Schuerholz’s player wheeling dealings, the talent of the players, and the incredibly underappreciated works of Leo Mazzone - THOSE were the reasons for the team’s success, NOT Cox - They succeeded DESPITE Bobby Cox

I dont see why this is seen as such a radical or illogical position on this subject

Why, when everyone gowes one way, does intuition tell you to consider the other, except when it’s Bobby Cox in which case public opinion should grant him sainthood?

By Shaun

October 23, 2006 01:30 PM | Link to this

DOB,

Haven’t seen the interview. Guess I’ll have to pick up the latest BA. Don’t have the on-line subscription.

There you go, baseball’s a player’s game, as Beane says. It’s not like football where strategy and play-calling are extremely important. A manager’s job, basically, is to cut out all the outside BS and keep things in order so the players can just go out and play up to their abilities.

By BB FAN

October 23, 2006 01:34 PM | Link to this

Robert,

So you think it’s Bobby Cox’s fault that the players did not execute in the playoffs???? And they did not excute because Bobby Cox did not tell them how important it is to win in the playoffs????

You are right about one thing, the Braves have only one WS ring because the players did not execute in the playoffs. But it’s not Cox’s fault they did not execute. They get millions of dollars a year. I think they should know that winning in the playoffs is important. They don’t need Cox to hold their hand and tell them that.

Now, I’m not saying Cox has been the perfect manager! He has made plenty of mistakes throughout his career just like every other manager. They are human, as are the players.

But the decisions Cox has made were not all completely stupid ones like you suggest. Sure, it’s easy for us to say he should have done this or he should have done that. But hindsight is 20/20.

If Lonnie Smith doesn’t get mislead on the basepaths, the Braves win in ‘91.

If Wohlers doesn’t throw a hanging slider for Leyritz to hit into orbit, the Braves win in ‘96. Or if the DP was turned by Belliard and Lemke just before Lehritz’s homer, the Braves win. Or if the umpire had not got into Dye’s way fon the foul ball that Jeter hit in the 6th inning, Jeter would have been out instead of singling and scoring on Fielder’s hit.

That’s two WS rings the Braves should have. However, it was not Booby Cox’s fault they did not win them.

By David O'Brien

October 23, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this

Shaun, I left out where that Q & A was published. It’s in Baseball America, or will be. Right now it’s on their website, if you have a subscription (can’t get to it unless you do, they make people pay for their “insider” online info. lame practice.)

By Robert

October 23, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

“But it’s about talent. A baseball team is about the players. The great managers, and there are a lot of them out there, are good leaders and master psychologists at the same time. The idea that you can strategize your way with poor talent to a division championship, I don’t quite buy into that. If someone disagrees with me, so be it.

WELL, BILLY, SOMEONE DOES. His name is Robert”

That is a COMPLETE either misunderstanding or misrepresentation of my arguement

I do NOT say that you can startegize your way INTO championships with totally inferior talent

I contend that you CAN however, MISmanage or MISstrategize a team with SUPERIOR talent, to an early exit OUT of the playoffs

These two are NOT the same thing, nor does one follow as the converse of the other

“BEANE: Bobby Cox, the way he protects his players, he’s the lightning rod when he needs to be. He’s quick to smile, very comfortable, very genuine. In my impression, you want to play for him, you know he’s on your side”

I dont disagree with a word he says. I have said before that I know players want to play for him, and that I can see why.

Billy did not say ANYTHING in that cited quote that said that Cox was a master manager.

You are reading into Beane’s quote to support your case, and twisting/m,isrepresenting my arguement to go against my case.

You must also recall that Beane is a hustler. If Beanbe thought Cox was idiot, do you think for a minute that he’d say “Gee the Braves are so dumb. They could help themselves if only they got rid of that d******* in the dugout”

No, he would do nothing that might lose HIS TEAM their edge - He might say something politically correct and patronizing, like “Bobby Cox, the way he protects his players, he’s the lightning rod when he needs to be. He’s quick to smile, very comfortable, very genuine., which sounds like loads of praise but is in effect like saying “He can be the lightning rod, but we’re not so sure if he is just ACTING stupid. He also doesnt have intercourse with goats (as far aas we know)”

Y’all, if I had a personal thing against Cox, dont you think I’d be on him over and over about alcohol and wife beating? The fact that I havent, and never condone when someone does bring those things up, should SUGGEST that I am not here to bash him because of some personal vendetta

Your arguements for Cox are

1.Everyone thinks so - (when that should make your intuition suspicious) 2.The sorry ramblings of a once proud and great baseball man about sticking a gun into his mouth 3.The patronizing yet decidely non-praising words of a shrew hustler who is a competitior to the Braves 4.The dismay of folks who cant imagine that their hero isnt a genius deity 5.The ridiculous notion that just because noone is perfect and everyone sometimes fails that constant failure is now to be an accepted fact of life

None of it sticks. None of it can around or past the ugly litany of playoff embarrassments that rest at Cox’s feet

The Braves did not get unlucky 13 times. Fate is not against them. They were not this ultra inferior team that hustled like the little engine that could

They were a massive collection of talent that was unprepared and ultimately wasted by a d******* manager, despite all the efforts of the players, coaches, and the front office

By rammerjammer

October 23, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this

Yo, Robert! Lots of hostility your way, pal.

Let’s look at this whole managerial issue from another angle. Who are your top 10 managers of all time? You know, the managers you LIKE.

It’d be way cool to imagine one of your choices in charge of our Bravos. Looking forward to your list!

By Stinky

October 23, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this

DOBra, I figured if I used direct quotes from you, you might not erase my posts.
BravoNam, there’s a sale on Air Supply albums at Amazon. Shauberty, stick to pie.

By Shaun

October 23, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this

Robert,

How about Dusty Baker? He refuses to play young players. He doesn’t seem to like plate discipline. He doesn’t have a good track record with young pitchers as far as keeping them healthy. But he’s a better manager than Bobby Cox because he hasn’t failed in the post-season as consistently?

Schuerholz’s player wheeling dealings, the talent of the players, and the incredibly underappreciated works of Leo Mazzone - THOSE were the reasons for the team’s success, NOT Cox - They succeeded DESPITE Bobby Cox

How do you seperate Cox from Schuerholz and Mazzone? How do you know that the Braves post-season failures are just Cox and not Schuerholz and/or Mazzone or the players or some other factor? There is no evidence as to why we should blame Cox over anyone else in the organization for the Braves post-season failures.

Also, how do we know Cox isn’t the reason the Braves were even close to the playoffs all those years?

You provide no tangible evidence. You just make the claim that the Braves fail because of Cox.

Yes, I will agree that many managers are overrated by many people (overrated depends on who’s doing the rating). As I’ve said, managers often get too much credit and too much blame. That said, you want a manager that can keep distractions out of the clubhouse, that will stand up for his players, and not try to control the team by overstrategizing or doing something stupid. It’s hard to imagine a better one that Bobby Cox, if this is your criteria, which should be in my opinion.

By David O'Brien

October 23, 2006 01:51 PM | Link to this

Shaun, exactly right. which is why everyone praises the likes of Cox, Bochy, Torre … not for postseason success (Torre’s had more, mostly because of $120-200 mill payrolls) but because their players would run through a wall for them because they respect and genuinely like them so much. Other managers might be more fiery or better tacticians, but they lack the ability to handle a clubhouse and sooth differences and keep egos in check, etc. It’s why a great baseball mind like Bobby Valentine, who’s a brilliant manager in several ways, can’t keep a job in the majors _ because he doesn’t have the crucial people skills that those other guys have. That’s just fact.

By Shaun

October 23, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

Billy did not say ANYTHING in that cited quote that said that Cox was a master manager.

He basically said no one is a “master manager” as far as making strategic decisions, etc.; he said a baseball team is about the players. And I think his point was that Bobby Cox understands this perhaps better than any manager. Cox doesn’t try to make it about himself—Cox understands that the game is about the players and allowing them to succeed, putting them in a position to succeed. In that sense, Cox is a master manager.

By Head Coach

October 23, 2006 02:17 PM | Link to this

Robert you have got to be the biggest freaking moron alive. When Bobby Cox is enshrined in Cooperstown you will still be living in your own little dreamworld. What the hell is wrong with the media ? Kenny Rogers is still being hounded by them. They are on a witch hunt and have been ever since he went after that cameraman when he was in Texas. Dirt is NOT A FOREIGN SUBSTANCE and neither is rosin. ESPN (Especially Stupid People Network) is the tabloid sports version of Globe magazine. I dont and never will again watch the news on TV and inspite of my efforts this (NEGATIVITY)sickness that has engulfed the news media is seeping into the American sports landscape and now I can hardly watch a sporting event without somebody trying to contrive or invent a controversy.

By KC

October 23, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this

Shaun:

I think that’s fairly accurate. Managers are as or more valuable for their people and leadership skills as they are for their ability to make in-game decisions. Don’t get me wrong, the in-game stuff is important, but I don’t think any one manager is head and shoulders above any other in that regard. Managers often have different styles in terms of how they manage a game, but I think most of them do a pretty good job. They all get most of the calls right, and get some of the calls wrong.

It’s the fact that players respect (not just liked, but respect) Bobby so greatly and want to play for him that makes him such a great manager. The mental aspect of baseball might be more of a factor in baseball than in any other sport. You just have more time to think. It’s extremely important for a manger to not just be a manager, but a leader… someone who can encourage players, help them believe in themselves, and challenge them when it’s appropriate.

The latter part of that equation (challenging) is something that some in this forum don’t seem to think Bobby does, but I think that perception is inaccurate. Bobby subscribes to the old leadership credo “praise in public, chastise in private”. You never hear him publicly criticize his players, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t voice displeasure when the need arises. It just means that you won’t see it happen. There’s only one exception I can think of… remember years ago when BC pulled Andruw out of the field in the middle of an inning because he didn’t give 100% on a play? That’s the time I’ve ever seen BC publicly chastise a player. He treats his players with respect, and they respect him for it.

Remember those two incidents of player/manager infighting in Toronto this season? Can you imagine that happening in Atlanta? No, neither can I.

The respect that BC commands also makes Shuerholz’s job easier. I can recall many situations in which a player signed or re-signed for less money with the Braves, largely to play for Bobby Cox. Bob Wickman was the latest example. He almost signed with Atlanta last winter. As a 10-5 player, he vetoed 2 or 3 trades before accepting the one that sent him to Atlanta. He stated that playing for Bobby was a big motivating factor in accepting the trade to (and later re-signing with) the Braves.

By The Grinch

October 23, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

Morning, all! Man, I wonder if Bobby reads all these posts. Not that anyone cares, but I suppose I’m somewhere in-between on the issue. Bobby’s ridiculous habit of sticking with pitchers who suck for a good month or two longer than ANYONE else would (Reitsma, Sosa, Remmy) is almost as asinine as his post-game explanations of how great they pitched after blowing a 7-run lead in 2/3 of an inning. He also kills me with the righty/lefty thing; I honestly think he’d pull Mariano Rivera for (insert a lefty who has no chance) to get that “advantageous” matchup. THAT SAID, I’m sure he’s a lot smarter behind closed doors as to what his pitchers REALLY did, and he has kept an awful lot of people happy playing for him for an awful long time, so he must know what he’s doing in other areas. How many times do you see a player blow up about Bobby to the media? And since this isn’t football where what the coach does during a game is usually much more important to the outcome, clubhouse stability’s an important trait to have. I don’t know…I give him a 7; he’s got a good beat and you can dance to him. :-)

By Matthew

October 23, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

So, is Glavine coming back? If not, what do you all think the Braves should do in terms of adding to its player personnel? Are we set the way we are? Personally I think we should pick up a J. Westbrook/Ervin Santana type pitcher who will eat innings and give the Braves a solid back of the rotation type pitcher.

By KC

October 23, 2006 02:36 PM | Link to this

MEANT TO SAY: “Managers are as or more valuable for their people skills and leadership…”

By Shaun

October 23, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this

KC,

Exactly. A manager gets glory when he gives glory to his players; and no one is better at this than Bobby Cox.

By Robert

October 23, 2006 02:42 PM | Link to this

“When Bobby Cox is enshrined in Cooperstown …”

it will be an insult to the true greatnesses that are immortalized in Cooperstown

“How about Dusty Baker? He refuses to play young players. He doesn’t seem to like plate discipline. He doesn’t have a good track record with young pitchers as far as keeping them healthy. But he’s a better manager than Bobby Cox because he hasn’t failed in the post-season as consistently? “

You know, it’s a question we could ask once we gave Dusty a team as talented as the ones Bobby has consistantly had. (Do not go back to arguing for 2003 again at the expense of ignoring 1993-2001)

“How do you seperate Cox from Schuerholz and Mazzone? …..Also, how do we know Cox isn’t the reason the Braves were even close to the playoffs all those years? “

Well now, I have noted that there was ONE thing different about this year’s Braves team - the one team that ended the “streak” .

The difference was the absence of Leo Mazzone. Whenever I have suggested that this points to how great Leo was, I have been attacked in very hostile fashion

You know I agree with you guys that the manager is a small part of things, usually. I just can not ignore the fact that such incredibly talented teams have failed so blatantly and so repeatedly in the playoffs. I think there are very few managers that can make a huge positive impact on teams. A top ten, I;d have to think on that. I can tell you offhand that I have high regard for

Jim Leyland, Whitey Herzog, and Larry Dierker. Gotta look at what Joe Girardi did with the Marlins this year and think he has some ability (heaven forbid he tell the owner to not manage the team). I have had regard for Jack McKeon - he got respectabkle finsihes out of some horrid looking Reds teams in the late 90’s and then took a Marlins team going nowehere in ‘03 and guided them to a ring.

I am sure we will now hear in detail about how every one of thiose managers has made some particualr mistake at some time. Which is of course not the point, but which will of course be said anyway.

I dont know how many times I am gonna read about how Cox has made a BUNCH of stupid calls and then the poster pays no attention to that but deifies the man anyway

Y’all say I am “hopeless” in my obsession against the man. Y’all are hopeless in your convictions about the man. If one World Series title out of all the great teams we have had in Atlanta the past decade and a half is work well done in y’alls opinion, then let’s stop fighting and hire me - cuz y’all are easily pleased

Bobby Cox WILL be enshrined at Cooperstown. I understand that it will happen. That doesnt mean it SHOULD happen. People predictably do stupid stuff every day, and enshrinign Cox will just continue that legacy.

By The Ol' Perfesser, Casey Stengel

October 23, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this

Lew,

I took my Yankees to the World Series in 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, and 1960. My Yankees won the World Series in 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1956 and 1958. You could look it up.

By any standard, 7 world championships in 12 seasons beats 14 or even 15 piddlin’ division titles all to hell.

And after I was unjustly fired, the Yankees went on to appear in four more straight World Series, winning two of them (I coulda won all four). So that’s 9 world championships in 16 years, and 14 World Series appearances in 16 years.

Nine-fer-14 is a whole, whole lot better record than 1-fer-14, Lew.

So don’t talk about the Braves’ division title run as being unprecedented, because the 1949-1964 New York Yankees blow the 1991-2005 Atlanta Braves out of the frickin’ water.

Like I said, you could look it up.

By The Grinch

October 23, 2006 02:46 PM | Link to this

KC, sorry if it sounds like I repeated a lot of what you said; I posted my comment before seing yours.

By KC

October 23, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this

GRINCH:

In fairness to BC… there weren’t a lot of options earlier this season when he had to send guys like Reitsma, Sosa, and Remlinger out there. If he had a guy or two he could have turned to for some outs instead, I’m sure he would have done so. I’m sure when he picked up the bullpen phone early this season, he must have felt like he was playing Russian Roulette… with an entirely loaded gun.

But in a general sense, it is fair to say that Bobby shows a little more patience than some other managers. I’ve seen that go well, and I’ve seen it go badly. There have been a number of times when I’ve thought “why in the world is he keeping this guy around”… only to see that player turn a corner and become a productive player.

By Shaun

October 23, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this

The Grinch,

I would agree that Cox can sometimes be a little conservative with some of his in-game decisions, but he’s far from the worst manager in that regard. I think most managers overuse certain tools (sacrificing) for the sake of convention, so I don’t think Cox is any worse that a lot of other managers. And often times he will avoid the sacrifice when other managers would employ it. As far as the lefty-righty matchup thing, I don’t thing Cox is any worse than most other managers. In fact, he probably pays slightly less attention to that than most other managers, based on what I’ve heard and read and seen.

By Shaun

October 23, 2006 03:02 PM | Link to this

You know, it’s a question we could ask once we gave Dusty a team as talented as the ones Bobby has consistantly had. (Do not go back to arguing for 2003 again at the expense of ignoring 1993-2001)

Let’s see, Dusty had some pretty talented teams in SF but went to one WS and lost. He inherited the two best young pitchers in the game and is at least somewhat responsible for endangering their careers.

By Peter Birdsey

October 23, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this

David, Loved your inclusion of the DBT concert in the Braves blog. I have been a big fan of Hood, Cooley and the band for several years. Without question it is some of the most honest, searing, raging rawk to come out period.I ask you this because you’re a sports fan- Do you remember several years back one of the ESPN anchors describing a hockey game and using a Patterson Hood- Mike Cooley ananlogy? I can’t find documentation of it anywhere. Peter Birdsey

By Matthew

October 23, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this

Now Shaun, we don’t want to ruin Robert’s argument with facts, now do we. We all know that BC is the ONLY manager in the history of the game to make mistakes. We also know that NO other manager has underachieved with a team or made bad decisions.

The only reason why BC has missed the most opportunities is because he has given his teams the most opportunities to win. A manager is just that: a manager. He cannot control sudden ineffectiveness by a pitcher or a choke job by a hitter (by that logic the Mets should fire Randolph for the strikeout the other night). Has BC made bad decisions? Yes, but they are heightened only because he has consistently guided his team into the limelight. He is not perfect, but I ask again, as has been asked several times already. Robert, who do you want to manage the Braves? Who could guide the team to the consistent success enjoyed under Cox’s leadership, in spite of ownership questions, a roller coaster payroll, and every other obstacle overcome by Cox’s teams? Who’s your choice? Oh wait, I forgot. You apparently are incapable of developing a positive alternative. You can only gripe about the status quo.

Robert, are you really Howard Dean?

By BB FAN

October 23, 2006 03:21 PM | Link to this

Robert,

What is your love affair with Leo Mazzone all about? It seems to me that in recent seasons of “the streak” it’s been the pitching that has caused the Braves to lose in the playoffs. So why are you giving Mazzone a free pass. According to you, Mazzone must not have had his pitchers ready for the post season.

Don’t get me wrong, Mazzone is a great pitching coach, but he isn’t perfect either. Young guys had issues with him and it was his way or the highway.

Look at Glavine, he was using Mazzone’s philosophy of picthing outside and getting hit hard. Last year after the All Star break, he started pitching inside more, and he has been a lot more successful.

By Head Coach

October 23, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this

Robert , you are truly a legend in your own mind. Don’t chase parked cars and wear a helmet at all times.

By Carolina Lady

October 23, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this

Hey, Bravo Nam! Robert doesn’t upset me because I don’t read anything he posts anymore! People like that aren’t worth the time or effort. End of problem! :-))

On the other hand, I enjoy reading your perspective. You’re usually right on target and say it well. Intelligence and common sense are a wonderful combination whenever it is found. :-)

35!! Where are you?? You’re missed!

By The Grinch

October 23, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this

KC: As soon as I typed that I figured someone would point out the lack of options, and I agree. However, there comes a point to where if you KNOW for a FACT the guy’s gonna blow chunks, why not give some AAA prospect a chance every now and then? It shows that you’re aware that there’s a problem, and that you’re at least trying something different (and getting a young guy some experience). Y’all have to admit, while there probably wasn’t anyone better available he could’ve gone all the way down to A ball before he found someone worse.

Shaun, I didn’t say he was “The worst.” I just said he was bad in those three areas, and I don’t think anyone would’ve stuck with Reitsma as long. It was practically a joke, albeit a sick one. Once again, I’m not saying he’s a bad manager overall, I was just pointing out some of the things he does sometimes that make me scratch my head.

By Matthew

October 23, 2006 03:34 PM | Link to this

Robert:

Just read your post where you list a few managers that you like. Sorry I posted before that message appeared. Those are good choices, and I know that BC can be listed with them. Joe Girardi cannot yet be considered a great manager. He had a losing record, missed the playoffs, and got fired. We’ll look at him again in a few years, if he lands with another team. Have a good afternoon.

By David O'Brien

October 23, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

Birdsey, I don’t know the analogy you’re referring to, but I’ll bet it was just the one ESPN dude who always says things like, “What Patterson Hood is to the Drive-By Truckers, Donavan McNabb is to the Eagles.” He always tries to throw in a hip band reference, but that’s the running schtick he has, to name a band and its band leader and compare it to a team and its leader….

And yes, they truly rawk

By Robert

October 23, 2006 03:56 PM | Link to this

“Let’s see, Dusty had some pretty talented teams in SF but went to one WS and lost. He inherited the two best young pitchers in the game and is at least somewhat responsible for endangering their careers.”

PRETTY talented teams, but not as talented as the Braves of the 90’s.

Kerry Wood’s troubles started long before Baker took over. Cant say that Baker didnt do some silly stuff with Prior. Hey - If Baker were here, Leo wouldve been there to act as a buffer between him and the pitchers

Matthew - No, for the thousandth time no, Cox is NOT the only one to make mistakes, nor is his team the only one to ever underachieve. But he makes far more mistakes than average and his teams consistantly and repeatedly underachieve to a degree that no other manager’s team have (save perhaps T LaRussa).

I dont understand why I have to type this out over and over again. I explain it, and someone ELSE comes and makes the same misinterpretation of what I have said.

What did I say about Girardi. That you had to wonder or pay attention. I didnt annoint him great. I said he merited attention and consideration

Grinch, when he makes you scratch your head over and over again, why dont you start to question his ability? What do you do instead - just decide that the genius knows better and that you were silly for questioning his rationale?

My love for Leo? - Well let’s see - When did the streak end in relation to when Leo left? Remind me?

By Matthew

October 23, 2006 03:56 PM | Link to this

Carolina Lady:

Sorry I didn’t get a chance to answer your quesiton. Thanks for asking about Jennifer and Walter. They are both doing well. Walter is already six weeks old! It’s freaking me out!! If you talk to Bob, give him a hello for me. I think you’re right about Robert. I’ll skip his posts rom now on. It’s just not worth the trouble.

BTW, my Hogs are up to #13 in the BCS. All you Georgia fans are welcome to adopt the Hogs if you want! The Hogs have to be a better alternative than Spurrier’s SC team, the viles, the gators, or anyone in the West.

Go Braves and Hogs!

By Robert

October 23, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this

“Robert, who do you want to manage the Braves? Who could guide the team to the consistent success enjoyed under Cox’s leadership, in spite of ownership questions, a roller coaster payroll, and every other obstacle overcome by Cox’s teams? Who’s your choice? Oh wait, I forgot. You apparently are incapable of developing a positive alternative. You can only gripe about the status quo.”

Matthew - I have said THIS before as well

I dont know where you live but try this. Get your white pages. Close your eyes, open the book, and point.

As long as your finger is not pointed at

Cox, Robert Joseph

Lady, Carolina

Coach, Head

or

Paul, Tennssee

you have my new choice. Dont like that choice? Close your eyes and throw the dart again.

2 playoff appearances and 2 World Series titles in 14 years is better than 14 playoff appearances and 1 World Series title in 14 years

By KC

October 23, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

GRINCH:

BC did try different options. The Braves called up all the best bullpen arms in their system that looked as though they might be ready for the majors. He gave all the young guys opportunities to prove themselves. Some of the kids didn’t impress and/or got hurt. A couple of them did impress, but not until the second half of the season (Yates, and McBride).

Sometimes when you don’t have any other options, you stick with a guy that might at least have it in him to pitch well. I think that was the case with Chris Reitsma. He was supposed to be our #1 arm in the pen (as sad as that was), so they stuck with him longer than they did Remlinger. (It really didn’t take the Braves all that long in my view to release Remlinger.) By the time Reitsma’s injury came to light, he had already been relegated to the end of the already decrepit bullpen bench.

I just don’t see what BC could have done differently. Again, he was playing Russian Roulette with a fully loaded gun every time he picked up the bullpen phone.

By Robert

October 23, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

Girardi took a team that was picked to rival the ‘62 Mets and ‘03 Tigers for worst ever and got them to finsih one game behind the Braves and their genius manager

He was fired because the owner of the Marlins is a bobbycox

Now, part of the reason the Marlins did so much better than expected is that the baseball people who picked them to lose 110-some games had their heads up BC’s behind, but part of the reason was he helped that team gel and believe in itself

Sorry, but the philosophy I see there is

Winning record = good manager Losing record = bad manager Playoff loss= great manager and horrid accursed luck -

and I dont agree with it

By TS

October 23, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this

Robert,

I am dumbfounded. Is this just an identity thing for you? Do you feel special because DOB responds to what you post? Have you created a safe little niche where you are that guy? Or are you really that out of touch with reality. If you really believe what are saying you should take some time to reevaluate how you place value and percieve the world.

By Carolina Lady

October 23, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this

Hey, Matthew! Good news to hear! That little guy will grow up before you know it. Enjoy every minute! My best to Miss Jennifer.

I will relay your message to Bob. He’ll be happy that you thought of him! :-)

By KC

October 23, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

Did I hear this correctly? St. Louis is going to pitch Carpenter in game 4??????????????????????

The reigning CY Young winner is only going to pitch once in this series???

Now there’s a managerial move I can’t understand!!!

By BB FAN

October 23, 2006 04:25 PM | Link to this

Robert,

You are wrong about Braves having had the most takented teams every year of the 15 year run. The Yankees have had the most talented team each year between 1994 and 2003, except 1995.

The Braves had good teams in 1991, 1992 and 1993, but they overachieved each year. The lineup was a joke: Pendleton, Lonnie Smith, Otis Nixon, Greg Olson/Berryhill, Sid Bream (McGriff in late ‘93), Lemke, Belliard/Blauser. Except for McGriff, all of those guys were washed up with their previous teams or were never very good with the Braves. The only “consistant” hitting came from Justice and Ron Gant. Consistant might be a stretch as both could be pretty streaky at times.

The Rotation was good from 1-3 in Smoltz, Glavine and Avery, but they were all young. And it featured Leibrandt and Pete Smith/Bielecki as the 4th and 5th starters. Liebrandt was washed up with the Royals before he went to Atlanta and became decent. Smith was 18-37 with ERAs in the high 4’s each year before 1992. Bielecki was never very good (one good year in 7 seasons before he went to Atlanta in ‘92). Maddux solidifed the starting rotation in ‘93. And the bullpen was pieced together with Stanton, Freeman, Pena, Berenguer, Reardon Clancy, Merker and Wohlers. They were either washed up or extremely inexperienced.

From 1994-1999, the Braves had very good teams but all had holes. The bullpen was pieced together every year. Even in 1995, the Braves were not the most talented. The Indians were much more talented and were favored. The Braves lineup was young and inconsistant until 1998 when the hitters started to reach their prime. In They had a great team in 1998, but only had 2 reliable bullpen guys. A team can’t win without a bullpen. But then in 1999, Galarraga and Lopez missed significant time. In 1999, Smoltz was also hurting and pitched through pain the whole season.

It’s true that the Braves have had talented teams. Players like Chipper Jones, Greg Maddux, Glavine , Smoltz and Andruw Jones have been great, but to win the World Series, a team needs power pitching, a good bullpen and good defense.

And the Yankees had the most talented teams from 1994-1999. I don’t care what anybody says. If you look at those Yankee teams, you will see that they had good power pitching, a strong bullpen and were solid defensively.

The Braves have never had a great bullpen over the 15 year streak. And when Smoltz was the closer, the starting rotation was questionable as Glavine and Maddux were in their mid to late 30’s and were just not as effective in the post season. Maybe that’s Mazzone’s fault for not allowing them to pitch inside more. Glavine was great this post season when he pitched inside to hitters.

So yes, the Braves should have 2 more WS rings (1991 and 1996) but they have not been the most talented team every year of the 15 year streak.

Oh and so you know Robert, the 2006 Braves had the worst bullpen of the last 16 years. Even the great Mazzone would not have been able to do any more with it.

By MGL

October 23, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this

KC,

Carpenter is on tonight from everything I have heard.

By KC

October 23, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this

OKAY… I did hear wrong. Carpenter will be going in game 3. I feel better now.

By The Grinch

October 23, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this

Robert, you shouldn’t be lumping me in with the “deists.” I don’t claim to know what goes on behind closed doors but I assume Bobby is smarter than he sounds during his post-game comments else he wouldn’t be able to effectively pick his nose. It’s got to be a show. If you’ll go back and read some of my most recent posts again, you’ll see I’m quite capable of forming my own opinion, and that I’m in the process of going against the grain to a degree. While I dodn’t take it as far as you do, I’m not a Cox apologist.

KC, perhaps you’re right. I just remember thinking that when Bobby had been saying “Reitsy pitched great, he only threw one bad one” after every game for about three months, and Reitsma finally admitted he’d been pitching injured, Bobby said “See? There you go. How’s he supposed to pitch when he can’t feel the ball?” Well, he isn’t. And I understand that it’s smarter in the long run for him to say something nice rather than what I would have said: “That selfish little prick just blew our season and our division streak because he was too stupid and stubborn to do the right thing like anyone else with any sense and decency would’ve; if he doesn’t forfeit the rest of his contract and get on the next train out of Dodge I’ll personally see he gets lynched, etc.” However, a “No comment” would’ve made him at least sound like he was sane. I don’t know anything about the man; I only know what I hear him say. I’m also not calling for his head, I’m just pointing out things that irk me.

By Lew

October 23, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this

Grinch-I agree that BC leaves pitchers in a bit too long sometimes, but as far as this year with Reitsma, Remlinger and Sosa, it was because he flat out didn’t have anyone else. I blame this season on JS, inconsistent play and injuries. Ole Perfesser- If you read my post, you would see that I mentioned that Stengel did not win 14 straight. He didn’t. Was he a great manager? You bet. One of the all-time greats, in fact. Shaun-I still think the Red Sox firing Grady Little was an overreaction, but I do see your point about the distraction. Seems to me to be a media problem, not a team thing.

By Carolina Lady

October 23, 2006 05:01 PM | Link to this

Well. I just received a most upsetting email. It seems that someone here thinks that I couldn’t manage the Braves!

I want you to know that I could manage just fine, thank you!

Why, tissue boxes would be required in the dugout at all times! Yes, sir! And trash cans. No more throwing trash on the floor. And NO SPITTING! Especially that awful brown stuff….yuck!

A firm hand, that’s what they need! There would be absolutely NO dissention in any form to the chintz curtains and throw pillows! A pretty pastel color would be nice……

And we could have a lovely tea after the games. That would be very nice, don’t you think? Yes, that would work well.

By Shauberty

October 23, 2006 05:05 PM | Link to this

In my new role as Shauberty I am able to bring refinement to this blog. Shaun brings the numbers, Robert brings the drivel, and Stinky brings nothing of value. Shauberty combines the best of all three to bring you this advice- Bobby Cox would not have a very good on base percentage with those artificial knees and lack of managerial skills. In addition, DOB fascinates me and I want to bear his child after I stalk him some more. Shauberty out.

By The Grinch

October 23, 2006 05:07 PM | Link to this

Matthew: while I will never abandon my Dawgs as long as the hedges stand, I agree they’re liable to lose five games. Arkansas is the least offensive of the remaining SEC contenders by a long shot; I’ll be happy to pull for them. As far as Tennessee, Florida, and Auburn go I can’t envision a scenario where I could do anything other than hope they lose 62-0 every game they play, unless it somehow benefitted Ga.

BBfan, I gotta disagree about the early 90’s bullpen. Marvin free-run was a joke, and while Juan B. still got it done from time to time he was definitely past his prime. Reardon was also a major mistake. However, the rest were pretty darned good I thought. Pena was old, but he was still money to close out the big games. Wohlers, Merker and Stanton were young, but talented. Remember when Merker, Wohlers and Pena threw a combined no-hitter when the starter was a last minute scratch? That’s hard to do with a crappy bullpen. I agree with most of the rest of your assesment, though.

By Lew

October 23, 2006 05:11 PM | Link to this

Well Ma’am- I suggested that Robert needed serious psychoanalysis to deal with his authority issues and he didn’t exclude me from the managerial list. It seems I’m on to something.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 23, 2006 05:13 PM | Link to this

this journalist is appalled by all the divisiveness on today’s blog. robert, you should learn rule one through ten of this blog … don’t be rude to carolina lady. you will make yourself insignificant on this blog if you mess with cl. learn from your mistakes.

hey, dob … you should try a l’il wayne concert. l’il wayne throws money into the crowd. journalist read this in the ajc. best hip hop coverage in the nation.

now, substance on the fingers … who handed rogers the game ball? had this happened with an atlanta pitcher all would be understood and forgiven.

By Mike

October 23, 2006 05:25 PM | Link to this

I agree patterson hood is the man however that panic show didn’t look to shabby the other night in Detroit. Looks like they came out rockin. Pretty crazy two Athens bands in the motor city the same night.

Any word on John butler trio’s new cd?

In your opinion will we try to make a big splash in free agency or will we look for an under the radar type free agent to fill our LF and 2bagger positions?

By Robert

October 23, 2006 05:26 PM | Link to this

Grinch, I did not mean to lump you with the deists. Not at all. You seem to see a lot of the same issues I do with Cox, yet ultimately draw a different, and almost opposite conclusion. I am curious why

“Bobby is smarter than he sounds during his post-game comments else he wouldn’t be able to effectively pick his nose. It’s got to be a show”

One would THINK so, but dude, I think they have him rigged up to some kind of Auto-pick machine. It IS hard to believe a man could be that dumb, but dude, it’s SO consistant. It’s harder for me to believe that anybody intelligent could ACT that dumb, or would be willing to act that dumb even if they could, than it is for me to believe he is not acting. Remember, Billy Beane told us how genuine Cox is

Every time Cox picks his nose, I expect to see a turd on his finger

Cox is dumb as rocks, and that’s insulting the rocks

The mid 90’s teams did have a big hole - managing

Well, I am gone for a week again

Celebrate if you like.

Hopefully the topic will be off of Cox when I get back.

I pray for ‘08. That’s all I can say

By Stinky

October 23, 2006 05:27 PM | Link to this

Shauberty, I’m not stalking DOB, just pointing out that he doesn’t always take the high road, like he swore to do. You, however, seem to have his backside, which seems fitting.

By The Grinch

October 23, 2006 05:36 PM | Link to this

Jimmy Smith, can’t you see one of our pitchers reaching for the rosin bag and grabbing one of Wicky’s old chaws? It would probably be about the same size and shape, and definitely leave a dark, gooey substance behind on the pitching hand. Now that I think of it, maybe that IS what happened; Wicky must have pitched an away game or two at Detroit this year when he was with Cleveland…

Lew, I understand Bobby didn’t have many options. But wouldn’t you have a little more confidence in his sanity if he’d said something like “We’re doing the best we can with what we’ve got,” or at least “No comment.” Not, “I don’t understand why everyone doesn’t see Reitsy’s one of the best closer’s in the game.” Really? There’s a positive attitude, and then there’s being ridiculous. If he means these things as a joke, then I’d be happy to find it funny. I’m fairly reasonable. :-)

CL, would you outlaw the athletic cup to dicourage scratching and adjusting? How about introducing warmer uniforms after Labor day (a different color, of course; nobody should wear white after that point). How about little gold stars and smiley faces on the lineup card for those who are doing well, or just the ones you think are cute?

By Robert

October 23, 2006 05:59 PM | Link to this

Year by year

1991 and 1992 - Already acknowledged those were overachieving years. A great group of young arms and Leo Mazzone. At that point, Cox’s approach was a breath of fresh air (that would soon become stale)

Note please that the 1990 Braves under Cox finish 1.5 games BEHIND the 1990 Braves of Russ Nixon

1993 - The young guns PLUS Greg Maddux, PLUS Fred McGriff midseason - Lost to a Phillies team with Curt Schilling, Mitch Williams, some Braves casstoffs (Tommy Greene, Ben Rivera) in between> Phillies offense was Kruk, Stocker, Daulton, Incaviglia, etc etc - This was a BAD playoff loss, and the first indication something was wrong in Denmark

1994 - The year noone wants to talk about, as if the strike just means it never happened - The Expos team that led the Braves was a good one - PMartinez,Ken Hill, Fassero before he was 90 years old - Larry Walker, Grissom, a young Cliff Floyd, Moises Alou, plus they had a manager with a clue - if the season plays out, the “streak” ends here and after that is 11, which is just 2 ahead of the 4 WS Yankees.

1994 also was Cox’s finest hour. From game 105 on, his managing was flawless

1995 - First round against the old Rockies its hard to judge pitching. After that the pitchers allow more than 3 runs TWICE in ten games against the Reds and Indians. Glavine and Wohlers combine on a one hitter in the finale. Mike Hargrove is an idiot. The best team in baseball FINALLY gets a title. The pitching was so good that the strategy was to let Cox doze thru the games if at all possible

1996 - Down 3-0 to St Louis, the Braves win a game, which gets the genius-led and prepared Cardinals so frazzled they lose games 5 and 7 14-0 and 15-0. In the WS, the Braves mimic the Cardinals, with a two game plus cameo and then tucking tail and fleeing the scene. Mark Wohlers shouldnt have been in that game at that time. Cox didnt throq the hanging slider to Leyritz, but he couldve prvented him from throwing it, by not having him in there until the 9th. Best team in baseball makes one big goof, giving another very good team a lease on life, and then is mentally totally unprepared and crumbles

1997 - Kevin Brown is a scary guy. He throws hard and has a nasty attitude. Livan Hernandez is hardly a power pitcher, tho he likes his money they say. The Braves’ protests about an excellent ump’s strike zone is misguided, misdirected, an amateurish. If this is Bobby prepares his team, to whine about an ump, it is sad sad sad. Best team in baseball whine like little girls

1998 - 1st round is notable for one thing - Jim Riggelman (not Dusty Baker) starts Wood, risking (and getting) long term problems for a young pitcher in a futile attempt to win a game against an opponent that has them totally overmatched. Playoffs over at this point as the Braves never made the flight to San Diego. The Yankees were gonna beat whoever they played, but the Braves couldve shown up to the party

1999 - And we come to the clash, The chance for redemption for 96 and the no-show in 98. Win this WS and it’s 2-2 WS with the Yankees, 1-1 heads up and the debate can rage about the team of the decade. Cox’s assinine decsions regarding his starters loses games 1 and 3. The Yankees take care of 2 and 4. A series that should have been tied 2-2 and that shouldve gone to extras in game 7 is over in 4 - perhaps the greatest total domination, humiliation, exposition , whatever you wanna call it, of a pretender by a true champion

‘00 and ‘01 - maybe not the best team in baseball but 3 and out in ‘00 and then a no show vs Arizona in ‘01

2002- Another year noone wants to talk about. Jones-Jones-Sheffield and Maddux-Glavine-Millwood - The fourth starter has a seaon ERA of 3.24 - beaten by Bonds and some guys who didnt fit in with the Braves (didnt like Cox maybe?) Best team in baseball foiled again

2003 - Leo Mazzone’s finest hour. The offense is 2002 and then some, because besides Jones-Jones-Sheffield, Javy has 43 dingers and Giles hits .316 with 21 dingers. The two ruined pitchers and Dusty Baker finish em 3-2 in the first round. The Cubs finsihed 13 games behind the Braves in the regular season. The Braves shouldve won this series

‘04 and ‘05 - The Houston Astros - (the Falcons of baseball when it comes to playoff success) win their first two playoff series EVER in their history - at the exense of Eeyore and his charges

2006 - Tell me again how many times too many Cox trotted Reitsma out there. And how much too long he stuck with Giles at leadoff. Nine games out - I think those two d******* startegies easily cost us 9 games.

At LEAST 6 times the best team in baseball.

By The Grinch

October 23, 2006 06:10 PM | Link to this

Robert, my conclusion is not the opposite of yours, but somewhere in between. I would like to think that this is an act, and I’ll likely do so until I see evidence to the contrary. I like to hope for the best. However, if it turns out that Bobby actually IS haunted by the ghost of Howdy-Doody (and some of the signs do seem to point in that direction), then I won’t be in denial, either. I’ve learned to be prepared for anything.

By Robert

October 23, 2006 06:17 PM | Link to this

Maybe ONCE they shouldnt have made the playoffs after ‘92.

One time they likely wouldnt have tho they should have - ‘94, if the season plays out

‘93-‘99 stands out in particular - wuith the exception of 95, the Braves in 93,94,96,97,98, and 99 were simply outplayed and mentally outprepared

How the front office could even CONSIDER keeping Cox after the 96, 97, and 98 debacles is - perplexing, to stay cordial

For those who argue argue how Cox gets his team mentally ready, how come the no-shows, how come the losses to inferior Philadelphia, Florida, and San Diego teams (and the blowouts by equal match Yankees teams)

Cox ARGUABLY outmanaged Hargrove and somehow did not outstumble or outbumble Valentine, LaRussa, or Hargrove

He was made a fool of by the likes of Fregosi, Alou, Torre (twice), McKeon, and Bochy

A cucumber could outmanage Hargrove. A donkey DID outmanage Hargrove

By Robert

October 23, 2006 06:19 PM | Link to this

“Robert, my conclusion is not the opposite of yours, but somewhere in between. I would like to think that this is an act, and I’ll likely do so until I see evidence to the contrary. “

Grinch, until the 8th inning of Game one of the 99 WS, I was where you are

When Maddux trotted out there, despite the fact that Brosius who was already 2 for 2 off of him would be leading off, I realized it was not an act

By Robert

October 23, 2006 06:27 PM | Link to this

I am sure that the apologists (not you Grinch) will have ready made media approved excuses for each of those years. They will tell us all about how the pitchers werent really that good, and about the unlucky auspices that the soothsayers got before the playoffs, and about how the wind changing direction resulted led Cox to sniff one of his liquid farts, which made him think he’d hatched an idea, and so on and so on

See y’all in a week.

Here’s hoping for an entertaining WS.

By The Grinch

October 23, 2006 06:31 PM | Link to this

So how would you rank Hargrove in the pantheon of postseason managers? :-) Man, you are one cynical dude. But the world needs cynics, whether they like them or not. Sheep become uncontrollably dangerous otherwise. Also, without cynicism there would be no satire…it makes for the best comedy. You forgot to point out that a cucumber would be more cost-effective, as well.

By Carolina Lady

October 23, 2006 06:32 PM | Link to this

Grinch, there are times when “Winter White” is entirely appropriate. And as for the….uh….the….hmmmm…..gentlemen’s accoutrements…they of course would be permitted as long as the adjusting was kept to an absolute minimum and preferably not in public. :-))

By LT

October 23, 2006 06:51 PM | Link to this

Robert,

I rarely post but….Dude- we get it! You don’t like BC. He’s the reason the Braves have been so horrible (that’s sarcasm). Can you come up with a list of other managers, that had great teams,that didn’t win the WS, that should be fired? You are an idiot(.) STFU

By The Grinch

October 23, 2006 06:57 PM | Link to this

So the players could call a TO and jog off the field and into the hallway to make an adjustment? Don’t you think that might anger folks that already feel the game is too long? I suppose another time burning rule could be factored in to counter it. It would be a gradual process.

Later, Robert; perhaps the subject will finally be exhasted upon your return. Here’s to that (clink, clink).

By Shauberty

October 23, 2006 07:13 PM | Link to this

Stinky, you can complain again to the AJC when DOB gets the best of you. When it’s me, call Mrs. Shauberty to register your complaint. Imagine you pointing out the high road to anyone - a road less traveled for you.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 23, 2006 07:19 PM | Link to this

chipper cannot survive if carolina lady is manager of the team. first, seeds, gum, and tobacco must be spit somewhere. second, big bubbles will burst somewhere. next, that itching never really left him. carolina lady will not tolerate a good scratch of the cratch - not in the dugout anyway. isn’t this a far better topic than we’ve been on for the past two days? how do y’all really feel about cox as manager of this team? carolina lady will need a third base coach. oprah? hillary? have to have ankles to coach third?

By Carolina Lady

October 23, 2006 07:45 PM | Link to this

Nope. Grinch has Third.

By Carolina Lady

October 23, 2006 07:54 PM | Link to this

And McCann Sr would be the new hitting coach.

By Lew

October 23, 2006 08:03 PM | Link to this

Ma’am-You make a good point. White is not always white. Anyone who has ever painted a house has surely seen this. Grinchy-You just got to realize, that Bobby Cox being Bobby Cox. You’ve never heard him criticize a player and you probably never will. Don’t you think he knows we all see through the layer of bovine excrement to see the truth beneath? He knows we all know that Reitsma was flippin terrible, but he won’t ever say that. At least not in public. I can only ever remember two times he showed a player up in public-that was years ago when he yanked Andruw in the middle of an inning and this year with Sosa. He just will not put down a player. It’s not really a matter of truth. He’s just like a parent. No matter what our kids do, we just won’t let anyone else think they are anything but great. Just like your parents, Dude.

By Matthew

October 23, 2006 08:57 PM | Link to this

Grinch:

I feel the same way (that you feel about the Hogs) about the Dawgs. Mark Richt seems to be a very classy coach who does a whale of a job. My team to root for in the East is definitely Georgia. Here’s hoping they rebound and win out the rest of the year. In the mean time, I’ll teach you our cheer:

“WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

PIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

SOIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!”

Good night all. I retire to categorize my music and movie collections. Have to say that my taste in music is nowhere near as eclectic as DOB, but I do have a few Sinatra and Man in Black CDs to go along with my Christian music. Also, I am a HUGE fan of TBS for introducing me to John Wayne as a little kid. Dad and I would stay up until the middle of the night (11:30 was late for a 7 year old) and watch the Duke take out the bad guys. Now I get to pass on the tradition to my son, who is all of six weeks old and has already seen “They Were Expendable” and “Rio Bravo.”

By Stinky

October 23, 2006 09:00 PM | Link to this

Mrs. Shauberty? Are you a woman or a crossdresser?

By Carolina Lady

October 23, 2006 09:07 PM | Link to this

Matthew, that with your son is priceless. God bless you!

By Rio Bravo

October 23, 2006 09:30 PM | Link to this

John T. Chance: You’re a rich man, Burdette… big ranch, pay a lot of people to do what you want ‘em to do. And you got a brother. He’s no good but he’s your brother. He committed twenty murders you’d try and see he didn’t hang for ‘em.

Nathan Burdette: I don’t like that kinda talk. Now you’re practically accusing me…

John T. Chance: Let’s get this straight: You don’t like? I don’t like a lot of things. I don’t like your men sittin’ on the road bottling up this town. I don’t like your men watching us, trying to catch us with our backs turned. And I don’t like it when a friend of mine offers to help and twenty minutes later he’s dead. And I don’t like you, Burdette, because you set it up.

By Shauberty

October 23, 2006 09:32 PM | Link to this

Stinky, call the AJC and file another complaint, sissy boy. Take your ball and go home. As DOB is wont to say, no one likes you.

By Stinky

October 23, 2006 09:38 PM | Link to this

Does Mrs. Shauberty know you have this thing for DOB?

By Shauberty

October 23, 2006 10:18 PM | Link to this

You are the one posting to DOB, stalker-boy. Man up and admit your compulsion. Why do you just post his remarks again and again? Maybe you should call the AJC and complain again like a little girl. No one likes you. You are irrelevant. I am going to ignore you now like most people have done for the past several weeks no matter the name under which you post. Stalk away, stalker-boy.

By The Grinch

October 23, 2006 10:43 PM | Link to this

Matthew, I’ll keep that in mind. Like I said previously, I don’t know much about Arkansas other than what I witnessed attending the 2002 SEC championship game. Your fans were low-keyed, friendly and respectful; perhaps more so than any opponent’s fans I’ve thus encountered. I also generally like pigs. That, and I thouroughly despise the teams I mentioned earlier (and their fans as well).

CL, thanks for honnoring my third base nomination. Will you install cheerleaders? I’ve got dibs. :-)

Lew, I never said he should publicly humiliate his players, I simply said he shouldn’t say things so horribly off the mark in support of them that it causes even die-hard supporters to raise their eyebrows. A certain degree of realism would be appreciated by this Grinch.

By Stinky

October 23, 2006 10:45 PM | Link to this

Somebody wrote DOB some putrid love poetry a while back. I bet it was Shauberty.

By Shaubert

October 23, 2006 11:00 PM | Link to this

I revert to Shaubert - bringing you the best of Shaun and Robert. The other blogger no longer exists. Since Robert is away for a holiday and only Shaun remains and Shaun is not so bad after all - Shaubert will retire for now. Adios.

By David O'Brien

October 23, 2006 11:06 PM | Link to this

No, actually it was Scarlett Johansson. She digs me.

Did anyone actually read that entire frightening OCD post going year-by-year with the Braves’ playoff failures? I can honestly say I’m glad Robert took it to such an extreme day after day, week after week, because beating me over the head with it finally forced me to stop reading those redundant posts all together. Now I save so much time skipping past those. Seriously. That’s why I don’t even mind him providing his daily inventory anymore. Harmless enough.

OK, the series. I really think the Cards have a good shot at winning this thing. Carpenter tomorrow nigh, and he’s 9-4 with a 1.85 ERA _ yes, 1.85 _ at home this year, including a division series win vs. San Diego, his only home playoff start.

The Tigers will start lefty Nate Robertson, who was 5-10 with a 4.49 ERA in his last 16 regular-season starts and allowed seven runs and 12 hits in 5-2/3 innings of his division series loss vs. Yanks, then threw 5 scoreless in a win vs. Oakland in LCS.

By Stinky, The Man in Black

October 23, 2006 11:12 PM | Link to this

Adios, Shaubert. When you figure out which bathroom to enter, try to get your panties unbunched.

By BOB

October 23, 2006 11:14 PM | Link to this

Robert have a great week at the WS and tell DOB hello. Watch out for the donkey ?

By flbravesgirl

October 23, 2006 11:18 PM | Link to this

CL, since you’re working on the uniform dress code, could you please make it against the rules for the players to wear their unis 14 sizes too big and their pants legs down over the heels of their shoes? Drives me crazy. I keep expecting someone to get tangled in their too-big, too-long pants and hurt themselves.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 23, 2006 11:26 PM | Link to this

flbravesgirl, with the advent of wicky … pants cannot be too big. remember there were no pants big enough to fit him when he arrived. chances are none will fit him in the spring. wonder what grinch will look like in a uniform coaching third base? does grinch have ankles? red velvet cake will rob one of one’s ankles. ask hillary.

By David O'Brien

October 23, 2006 11:29 PM | Link to this

bravesgirl, agreed. bad luck, and so widespread now. then there’s that odd look sported by young Mr. Anthony Reyes. Not good.

Whaddya think of Ronnie Belliard’s blow-out ‘fro? The man hasn’t cut his hair in three years, and had those long beads. Told some of his boys here in St. Lou that he’d blow it out for the Series if they made it. That’s unfortunate.

By nathan

October 23, 2006 11:37 PM | Link to this

DOB, I know the “industry” and players like Bobby. Hey, I’ve been known to praise & bash Bobby (sometimes in the same sentence! LOL)

But, you have to understand some of our frustration. Don’t you? I mean, you worked for the Marlins in the 90’s didn’t you?

While I’m glad I got to watch “post season” failures (with many mini successes - they weren’t all 1st round losses). It was VERY frustrating from 1996-2000. I truely believe the Braves were the better team than all of the teams they lost to. Other than the 1996 Yankees. Damn good team they were. I suppose you could argue that the 1997 Marlins were BUILT to beat the Braves, but man………….

I hate to stick up for you Robert, but I pretty much posted the same OCD type post you just did, back in July. I’m quite certain DOB ragged me for it then too. :-) LOL!

But hey! I guess it just shows how “painfully - wonderful” it’s been to be a Braves fan since 1991.

Seacrest OUT!

By flbravesgirl

October 23, 2006 11:53 PM | Link to this

jimmy, of course the team will have to have pants for Wicky. I just don’t want to see any of the slimmer players (which would be pretty much everyone except Paronto) wearing Wicky-sized pants.

DOB, I’d agree that “unfortunate” is the appropriate word for Belliard’s hairstyle.

By The Grinch

October 23, 2006 11:53 PM | Link to this

Nathan, I remember. He did rag you for it. But there’s nothing wrong with having an opinion, no matter what some here may say if it doesn’t agree with theirs (and no, that wasn’t a stab at anyone in particular, DOB). Just a general statement. If we all agreed on everything, it would be a mighty boring blog.

FLBgirl, I agree. I’m surprised someone hasn’t busted their keister yet, not to mention the middle finger towards tradition.

Jimmy, I’ll have you know I’m in mighty fine shape but for the beer gut. I’m a man of huge appetites (in many areas), but I do spend a fair amount of time at the gym. I fancy that keeps me darn near 65% of peak operation. :-)

By The Newspaper Guy in "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance"

October 23, 2006 11:54 PM | Link to this

“When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.”

Sad commentary on today’s news.

Good night all. Music is halfway done. We won’t talk about the movies yet. Parent teacher conferences tomorrow night and Thursday night, so I may be on the blog a little more frequently. Sorry about that…

Grinch, thanks for the kudos regarding Hog fans. Hopefully this year’s SEC title game will work out better for the Hogs than the ‘02 game.

By The Grinch

October 24, 2006 12:14 AM | Link to this

If they beat any of the d-bags in the east, I’ll throw you guys a BBQ. I’ll even provide the beer. Although…how do you guys cook your own mascots? I guess it would be like the old Indian tradition of absorbing the power and soul of the animal. Heck, Christains eat Jesus every Sunday (and down here on Wednesdays too). Of course, ribs taste a lot better than wafers IMO. No need to get into tran-substantiation vs. con-substantiation, I suppose. Suuuuuiiiiiieeeeee!!!!!!

By Lew

October 24, 2006 12:18 AM | Link to this

Yes, Wicky in tight pants would not be a pretty sight. Come to think of it, neither would I be a pretty sight in tight pants. Baseball pants are supposed to be short and show stripes on socks. The Braves win more games when Chipper shows his stripes. I think it distracts the pitchers. Fros on players makes one think of Oscar Gamble. It probably distracted the pitchers, too.

By David O'Brien

October 24, 2006 12:33 AM | Link to this

Nathan, I didn’t work “for” the Marlins. I worked for the Sun-Sentinel covering the Marlins, like I work for the AJC covering the Braves.

But yes, I definitely understand plenty of your frustration. It’s maddening to go to the playoffs every year and win it all once, and especially to lose in the first round every year for so long.

My only thing is, place blame where it belongs. It’s too easy to say it’s all or even mostly Cox’s fault. Of course it’s not. It’s shared by so many people and so many different circumstances.

And they wouldn’t have won half of those division titles if they had the typical managerial turnover that most teams have. Believe that. No way they win half of those division titles without Cox.

Postseason … that’s a different story, as I’ve said many times. His strength is all that it takes to run a team over 162 games. None better at that. Postseason is a different animal, and I can’t think of one manager who rises high above others in the postseason. Leyland’s the best I’ve seen, but again only because I covered him in 1997 and saw him work that October, and he’s impressed me this October. Just not that many other managers in the past 15 years who’ve really blown me away with postseason managerial moves, and I think that’s because it’s so much to do with players in the postseason and getting quality starts and a put-the-team-on-their-back performances from a couple of hitters. Things the Braves haven’t gotten much of in recent years.

By Head Coach

October 24, 2006 12:56 AM | Link to this

Exactly David. Blame Cox the Gm if you want but not Cox the Manager. Blame him for this past season and credit Bobby for 14 straight. Nathan I understand your frustration but it goes much deeper and farther back into the past Braves history than most will ever know. Barry Bonds , Andy Van Slyke and Frank Thomas could have been Braves from 89 and on , they could have been a dynasty and I’m talking four to six world championships. I didnt happen , it just didnt.

By The Grinch

October 24, 2006 01:01 AM | Link to this

Yeah, Dave, I think the Braves have benefitted from having Cox around so long in the same way football teams do in having the same players on the offensive line for an extended period. Doesn’t so much matter how talented they are, but how well they’re used to working together. Stability. Knowing what you’re going to get.

Lew, if we win the pennant next year I think we should fly Wicky’s pants from the flagpole (and hope the stadium doesn’t lift off). As for stripes and distractions…the red-eared slider (turtle) has a red stripe (not the beer) along the side of it’s head. Maybe if Smoltz threw more of them it would create a distraction of some sort. Of course, PETA would get p**.

FLBgirl, did I say something to upset you recently? You haven’t responded to any of my comments in about a week and a half. Are you mad or just overly aware of my animal magnetism? :-)

By Thomas

October 24, 2006 08:19 AM | Link to this

La Russa on Rogers: ‘I don’t believe it was dirt’

• What could have been, mud, or some other kind of substance, who will give more effect on his pitches. No one knows exept him.
• Isnt it strange that Rogers has been absolutely lights out this postseason. Maybe the intesity of the moment, has held him through this playoff, or he is cheating. I believe Rogers, and even though i’m routing for the cards, I believ the substance in his hand doesnt make the pitches.

By Shaun

October 24, 2006 09:23 AM | Link to this

O’Brien,

Seems to me the Braves haven’t won in the post-season mostly because they’ve never had a lot of power pitching and an awesome closer at the same time.

They’ve obviously had great pitchers, great defense and their bullpen has pitched better than people realize in the post-season, but Smoltz is really the only power pitcher and Smoltz and maybe Wohlers for a couple of years were the only great closers.

Almost all the World Series Champions since the Braves’ run began have had at least two power arms in their rotation and one or two in their bullpen—guys that can throw that 96, 97, 98 mph fastball when their team needs it.

But, as I said before, could the Braves have even made it to the post-season if they had tried to build a team around power arms and defense only? Maybe not. Power arms are probably more susceptible to injury, so the Braves’ run probably wouldn’t have lasted as long had they tried to acquire power arms. They wouldn’t have been as successful at keeping their pitchers off the DL.

By Shaun

October 24, 2006 09:25 AM | Link to this

Head Coach,

If the Braves had gotten Bonds, Thomas or Van Slyke, maybe they probably don’t get Greg Maddux and probably can’t keep those three hitters and Glavine and Smoltz. That’s a lot of cash.

By Matthew

October 24, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this

Grinch:

I like the idea of the Indian absorbing the power of the animal, but as a Baptist I view Communion “in remembrance” of Christ. And thanks for the BBQ offer, you can make mine a cold frosty ROOT beer…lol

WPS (Shorthand for Woo Pig Soiee!)

BTW, speaking of Jesus, someone tell me whose line this was in “The Greatest Story Ever Told”

Surely this man was the Son of God

Hint, he wasn’t a Pilgrim.

By Carolina Lady

October 24, 2006 10:21 AM | Link to this

Matthew, wasn’t that the Roman soldier?

By journalist jimmy smith

October 24, 2006 10:28 AM | Link to this

the red eared slider has returned to the blog and all is well. the slider has better manners than some bloggers. and what was the substance on kenny rogers’ hand? no, not boogers - let’s get past that thought. this journalist has it on good authority that it was frosting from a little debbie. little debbie is not recognized as an official snack of mlb so there was no way the tigers could explain their pitcher eating a little debbie snack between innings. it’s all about money. little debbie is not to be in the dugout. how do we explain little debbie residue on the hand of a starter? revealing information from this journalist. journalism is jimmy smith’s life.

By rammerjammer

October 24, 2006 10:31 AM | Link to this

That would be one Marion Morrison.

By Carolina Lady

October 24, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this

rammerjammer, the Duke??

By journalist jimmy smith

October 24, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this

from this point forward it will be known as “the little debbie caper”. not capers - caper. does little debbie make capers, too? if it had been capers they would have left a residue much like the residue apparent below the thumb of kenny rogers … and if he stuck in his thumb and pulled out a plum … oh, the humanity! where is this story going? now, grinch avoided the discussion of ankles. a woman with no ankles is unattractive to this journalist. diane lane had nice ankles. viriginia madsen, too. lew, best ‘fro on a braves player may have been gary matthews’. gary matthews, jr was in camp and an early release last year. what would he have done for the team in left field? one must ponder such thoughts …

By David O'Brien

October 24, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this

Thomas: That’s a point many of us discussed yesterday at the balllpark, including a couple of Cardinals players. While the pine tar (that’s what it was, clearly) would help his grip and give him at least a psychologicial advantage by making him more comfortable or confident throwing in the cold, the fact of the matter is plain and simple _ he pitched even BETTER after cleaning the crap off following the first inning of Game 2.

So how did he pitch so great for seven innings (one hit, two walks)? That’s also why La Russa and most Cardinals were reluctant to make a big deal out of it yesterday, because they knew it would sound weak: Yes, he cheated in his first two postseason starts, but that’s for A’s and Yanks to feel angry about. Against the Cards, he dominated AFTER removing the pine tar. So if you’re the Cards, you shut up and try to pound him next time you face him.

By rammerjammer

October 24, 2006 10:59 AM | Link to this

Yes’m.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 24, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

oh, yes … pine tar. a favorite little debbie snack at this time of year. a little christmas tree with stripes of tar made to look like garland. now, cheating … there are the caught and the un-caught. selective enforcement of the rules of baseball robs the game of credibility. baseball is wonderful - but mlb is a mess.

By nathan

October 24, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

I hear ya, DOB.

I know you work/worked for the newspapers (not the teams), it just came out wrong.

I 100 percent agree with you about Cox. He is the master from April - September. Yes, his teams have failed more often than they’ve succeeded in October (like I said, unless you count the early round series victories they DID have in the late 90’s as successes - I do, you have to win the DLS and NLCS to have a chance to CHOKE the WS! LOL), but I’m right there with you that while, he has made some “bonehead” decisions in the post season, those moves probably haven’t hurt the team as much as players (some going to the HOF, some not) have also had some REALLY bad series over the course of a decade and a half.

One might argue that Cox’s relaxed attitude doesn’t put as much emphasis on focusing come the playoffs, but I don’t buy that. These guys know what’s at stake. I’m more of the believer of two things:

1) Maybe some of the players the Braves have had over the long run, just haven’t been as GOOD as the stats show. Face facts, one of the great thing about the Braves since 1991 is the fact that they ALWAYS dominated the teams they should dominate dureing the regular season. Look what the did to Colorado it’s firs couple of years in the league. They preyed on the lesser talent and played good enough (usually dominating them also), against the “good” teams. You know, guys like Gant etc…piling up HR after HR and hanging breaking balls all year long, but not seeing too many of them in the post-season, because the other teams have good pitchers too. (something a lot of Braves fans don’t want to admit). Most teams don’t want the big guns to beat them, look at what we did to Bonds in 91 & 92. That’s why it’s little guys like Lemke, Council, Speizio that make the diffence, whoever’s roll players come up big, usually win, IMO.

2) The other thing, which is just a theory but it’s my theory and I’m sticking to it. :) Most teams love to go against the best. For most of the 90’s one could argue that on paper and from April to September the Braves were the BEST. So when teams face them in the post-season, their respective managers have them on the HIGHEST possible focus level they can be on, because they KNEW that if they weren’t on the top of their game, they didn’t have a chance. In other words, for a decade the Braves had a big bullseye on their back that ALL OTHER TEAMS were aiming for.

But like alwasy, I can make “small” comment/reply turn into an epic 2000 word essay! So in short……I AGREE WITH YOU ALL THE WAY. It’s not just bad luck that Bobby’s teams fail so much and so often in the post seasn, but to blame soley him would be just plain ignorant. Last time I checked, he hasn’t thrown or swung at a pith in YEARS. If he calls for a sacrifice bunt, and the player fails, is that Bobby’s fault? Only if he’s calling on a player that has had 3 sacrifice bunts in his 15 year career. Then yes, it was a bad decision. But hey, I could be like Robert and mention them all, but I won’t, you all get my point……If you’re still reading, LOL.

By Lew

October 24, 2006 11:14 AM | Link to this

Esteemed Journalist Jimmy-Gary Matthews, Jr. was not in camp with the Braves last year, it was three years ago. Three very undistinguished years until this past year. This season was his only successful season. He could not even make the Braves in Spring Training when he was invited to camp. I fail to see how he would have been around with the Braves long enough to have that season last year. From career long performances, no one could have envisioned him being that good. Finally.

By MGL

October 24, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this

DOB - What are the proper expectations for coverage and updated blogs for the off-season. As a frequent visitor, I’m having withdrawal sysmpoms already.

By Shaun

October 24, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

Lew,

Matthews was with the Braves in Spring Training 2004, two years ago (I thought so and confirmed it through baseballreference.com).

They chose Dewayne Wise over Matthews that year. Wise hit .228 AVG/.272 OBP/.444 SLG.

Matthews, while his numbers weren’t overly impressive from 1999-2003, they were much better than what Wise had done. Matthews’s major league numbers were better than Wise’s minor league numbers.

I’d say letting Matthews go that spring wasn’t one of Schuerholz’s best moves.

By 10-7-4

October 24, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this

Greetings all—been a long time. Hope all are doing well. C. Lady, I especially hope, you and ‘mom’ are well. You know, just when you think you’ve ‘seen it all’,—here we have a post-season without the Braves to break our hearts, gas prices fall and some kooky N.Y. politician, makes Hillary Clinton a sympathetic figure. Whats next-Drunky Clint gives up drinking? Doubt it. Oh well, it’s as they say “like sand thru the hourglass”.

By David O'Brien

October 24, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this

MGL, once I get off the road and back to something resembling normalcy (I’ve been on road for more than two weeks now, and last had two days off in the last month), and once the Braves and other teams actually start doing things and free agency begins, etc, I’ll probably file a couple blogs a week. More when it’s merited, and probably just one a week a few weeks when nothing much is happening and the responses are way down.

By Beaten Dead Horse

October 24, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this

Boy, I miss Robert.

By David O'Brien

October 24, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

Meant to say, two days off in past month, not last had two days… But you get the point. Since Sept. 20, I’ve had two days off. I know, I sound like a whiner _ like a certain blogger who complains to the blog overseers everytime someone insults him or hurts his feelings. So I’ll stop.

By Belabored Point

October 24, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this

Me, too.

By Lew

October 24, 2006 01:21 PM | Link to this

Shaun-Dude, I’m not going to criticize JS for letting a player go who could not impress in Spring Training who had career highs of .276, 9 HR and 38 RBI. I’m sorry, but this hardly indicates much in the way of potential and hardly foreshadows a .300 season two years later (in Texas, no less). If not for Matthews,Jr.’s season in 06, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. Must be a slow news day. Anyone who gives this guy huge free agent bucks with one DECENT season behind him is a damn fool.

By Jackrabbit Slim

October 24, 2006 01:36 PM | Link to this

Yeah, Shaun, quit criticizing JS! There was nothing in Matthews Jr.’s OBP or HBP or VIP or VORP or ERA or FBI or POW or NAACP or FDA or RBI or FEMA or CIA to indicate he’d have the season he had in ‘06. The Braves are just SOL!

By Matthew

October 24, 2006 01:36 PM | Link to this

John Wayne did in fact portray the Roman soldier in The Greatest Story Ever Told.

DOB, thanks for all the hard work. Enjoy reading your blogs.

By Shaun

October 24, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this

Lew,

I totally agree with you; Matthews probably is going to be way overpaid by the time it’s all said and done.

My point was that Matthews was a better option than the player the Braves kept instead—Dewayne Wise. Matthews actually was a solid fourth or fifth OF before his impressive ‘06 season, and almost certainly would have helped the Braves more than Wise did in ‘04. Didn’t matter much because the Braves won the division title anyway. But I think choosing Matthews over Wise in ‘04 was a mistake by Schuerholz, however minor it may have been.

By Shaun

October 24, 2006 01:54 PM | Link to this

Jackrabbit Slim,

I’m not saying the Braves should have forseen him having a season like he did in ‘06. I’m just saying they should have realized he was a better player than Dewayne Wise and kept Matthews instead at the beginning of ‘04.

Of course no one could have forseen what Matthews did in ‘06, but they should have seen that in ‘04 he was better than Wise.

Let me repeat myself: Matthews is/was nothing special, but he almost certainly would have helped the Braves more than Wise. And based on their numbers—Matthews’s major league numbers up to 2004 looked better than Wise’s minor league numbers up to 2004—they should have picked Matthews. Still, this is an argument over who the Braves should have kept as their fourth or fifth outfielder back in 2004. I should have never brought it up.

By Shaun

October 24, 2006 02:07 PM | Link to this

I’m not saying the Braves should have forseen him having a season like he did in ‘06. I’m just saying they should have realized he was a better player than Dewayne Wise and kept Matthews instead at the beginning of ‘04.

Of course no one could have forseen what Matthews did in ‘06, but they should have seen that in ‘04 he was better than Wise.

Let me repeat myself: Matthews is/was nothing special, but he almost certainly would have helped the Braves more than Wise. And based on their number (Matthews’s major league numbers up to 2004 looked better than Wise’s minor league numbers up to 2004) they should have picked Matthews.

Still, this is an argument over who the Braves should have kept as their fourth or fifth outfielder back in 2004. I should have never brought it up.

By Head Coach

October 24, 2006 02:11 PM | Link to this

Shaun , the past era of the Braves was obviously before your time. TED TURNER had an open pocketbook , cash was never an issue until he sold the team to TimeWarner. So please dont pretend to know something that you don’t. DOB , it aint cheating unless you get caught. Pine tar , rosin , dirt ? we will never know because the umpires never examined Kenny Rogers up close. Was the ball doctored ? Did it have a foreign substance on it ? Was the ball scuffed ? these are questions I have yet to hear answered.

By rammerjammer

October 24, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this

HoRam. Starter? Reliever? Trade Bait?

What about Cormier? Thomson?

And the kids, Davies and Devine? More minor league seasoning?

By Shaun

October 24, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this

the past era of the Braves was obviously before your time. TED TURNER had an open pocketbook , cash was never an issue until he sold the team to TimeWarner. So please dont pretend to know something that you don’t.

No team this side of the Yankees could afford Bonds, Van Slyke, Frank Thomas, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, McGriff, Andruw and Chipper Jones. The Braves had to make a choice in ‘93 to go after either Bonds or Maddux and they chose Maddux. Van Slyke was already in his 30’s in 1991. The Braves already were stacked in the outfield—Gant, Nixon/Sanders, Justice—during Van Slyke’s productive years of 1991-1994.

By Tom from GR

October 24, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this

That Truckers’ show was something else. Probably the greatest encore I’ve every seen. Apart from being enormously talented, Patterson Hood has that Jack Black-esque ability to appear simultaneously sweet and doughy and dangerously insane. He pressed the envelope at both edges of that spectrum last Friday. I won’t soon be forgetting that show.

By Lew

October 24, 2006 02:37 PM | Link to this

Shaun-Matthews Jr. had a terrible spring training in 04 and Wise had an excellent spring. Matthews Jr had shown absolutely nothing but unfulfilled potential for at least four previous seasons. I agreed with JS taking Wise over Matthews. You are looking at things post facto. The Braves went to the postseason twice without Matthews Jr. and the Rangers went nowhere with him for those two years. Finally in his third year and with the Rangers and seven years in the majors, Matthews Jr. FINALLY had a decent season. Using your logic, the Braves should also have kept Damon Hollins that spring, too. I still contend that if he hadn’t hit .300 this year, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

By Lew

October 24, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this

Rammer-I think Devine might be ready, but Davies needs work and needs to get his head straight. I think they brought him back too fast because they had no arms left. Do you remember someone writing an AJC column about how he was our only hope? I think Horacio needs to go (sorry KC). The guy definitely has potential, but in four years he has been injured for half that time and the rest he has been terribly inconsistent. Considering he will command $4 million + in arbitration, I would try to trade him and failing that, just non-tender him. We could use the money with wehat we save from the Giles trade to buy good pitching.

By rammerjammer

October 24, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this

Hey rammerjammmer, great question!

Keep Ramirez. You can’t get anything of value for him, and if he stays healthy he’s a good lefty for the rotation.

Let Thomson go but keep Cormier for long relief. Devine needs to show us September wasn’t a fluke, and Davies needs to show us it was. Both should start the year in Richmond.

Trade Giles for minor league pitching, and sign Adam Kennedy of the Angels to play 2B and leadoff. And leave Diaz in left.

There you have it.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 24, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

journalist lew, you are right … gmjr was not in camp last year - it was longer ago than that. still, the braves opened with two outfielders no one was proud of … and had gmjr been here maybe he could have helped in left field last year and this year. he was almost mvp for the rangers. question: does his hat fall off when he hits the ball and runs to first base? now, what is the stuff that holds pecan pie together? perhaps that is what was on kenny rogers’ thumb.

By Shaun

October 24, 2006 03:01 PM | Link to this

Lew,

The Braves cut Matthews over a worse player because of a bad month in Spring Training. Instead of looking at a larger sample of games and seeing that Matthews put up better major league numbers throughout his career than Wise had throughout his minor league career, they chose to judge the two players in a month worth of games. Whether Matthews was a good player or not is irreleveant—they kept a worse player in Wise.

And, yes, the Braves went to the post-season anyway, but Schuerholz’s other brilliant moves made up for a minor mistake like this one; that doesn’t change the fact that it was a mistake.

I remember reading an article at the time that called it a mistake and agreeing with the logic that writer used.

Face it, Schuerholz is brilliant, but not perfect.

And you’re right, if Matthews hadn’t been awesome, we wouldn’t be discussing him. I don’t blame Scherholz for not forseeing his fluke ‘06, but he made a mistake keeping him over Wise.

Matthews hit .248 AVG/.314 OBP/ .361 SLG in his worst season in which he played at least 100 games in the majors up to 2004. Wise basically struggled to put up those numbers in the minors in all but one season up to 2004.

By KC

October 24, 2006 03:12 PM | Link to this

rammerjammer:

I think it’s highly unlikely that Ramirez will be moved to the bullpen. He’s only made 2 relief appearances in his career, and doesn’t seem like he’s cut out for the bullpen. He’ll either be in the rotation or he’ll be traded. My guess is he’ll start the season as the Braves’ 4th starter.

I don’t think there will be any room in the bullpen or in the rotation for Cormier. He looked good enough as the Braves 4th starter late in the season (3.19 ERA in Sept.), that I think they’ll keep him in a starting pitching role (at Richmond) and have him ready in case any of the starters go down.

Davies will also likely start the year in Richmond unless he’s part of a trade this winter. Devine might be a Sept. call-up, but it’s very unlikely that he’ll start the year in ATL.

John Thompson is a free agent and will not return.

By Head Coach

October 24, 2006 03:19 PM | Link to this

Shaun ,What part of an OPEN POCKETBOOK , DEOSN’T YOUR LITTLE MIND UNDERSTAND ? you have got to be on the intellectual level of a teenager. Just so you can say you learned something today , Ted Turner is a Billionare. I’ll say it again BILLIONARE , he has twice the money George Steinbrenner has. so once again Shaun gets caught with his pants around his skinny ankles with his dick in his hand.

By Karo Syrup

October 24, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this

It was me.

By Carolina Lady

October 24, 2006 03:35 PM | Link to this

Head Coach, there are many, many people who read this blog who never post. Men, women, boys, girls - who love the Braves. My cousin has 2 young boys, ages 10 and 12, who love to read about the Braves - including this blog. As HEAD COACH, is your post a positive or negative influence on these kids?? Could you kinda clean it up, please? :-)

By rammerjammer

October 24, 2006 03:43 PM | Link to this

KC,

Sounds reasonable. What about second base? Still a little unnerving to realize we don’t have a leadoff hitter or anyone who can steal a base.

By The Grinch

October 24, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

Morning, all! Karo syrup is clear, but maybe when mixed with dirt…

Journalist Jimmy Smith, when did Lew become a journalist? Is this an honorary thing, or do you know something we don’t (besides the Little Debbie story)? My vote for the unidentified substance is nougat. Nougat is a substance that gets no press, despite holding together some of the world’s most important candy bars. When is the last time anyone here read an article about nougat? This oversight must be corrected, and Kenny Rogers is taking the first steps toward making this magnificent substance’s plight known worldwide.

By Head Coach

October 24, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this

My apology Carolina Lady. However , this is an open blog and all opinions and vernacular of language is welcome. My years of service in the Military has left me with somewhat of a colorful and descriptive mouth. Did you ever see Walter Matthau in the Bad News Bears ? Thats me to a tee.

By The Grinch

October 24, 2006 03:56 PM | Link to this

CL, is that your cousin the Giraffe? :-)

By nathan

October 24, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this

Shaun You wrote:

The Braves had to make a choice in ‘93 to go after either Bonds or Maddux and they chose Maddux.

The Braves didn’t CHOOSE Maddux over Bonds. They had an offer in to Bonds. BONDS chose San Fran, and either the same day or the next day JS and the Braves moved VERY quickly on Maddux.

Make no mistake. BONDS was their first choice.

By nathan

October 24, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this

Barry Bonds was signed by the SF Giants on December 8th 1992

Greg Maddux was signed by the ATL Braves on December 9th 1992.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/ML1992trans.shtml

By Carolina Lady

October 24, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this

Grinch, yep.

Head Coach, there is some language that is appropriate in a public forum - and some that is not. One chooses which he/she will use.

Rammerjammer, I never realized that JW played that part. The old dog learns again! :-))

By Matthew

October 24, 2006 04:21 PM | Link to this

So the sale of the team to Liberty Media is going through for sure, pending MLB approval? There’s no chance that Mr. Blank will get the team?

Sigh, corporate ownership. Come on Bobby and the guys, we need you to win in spite of ownership!

Am I right in thinking that the Braves will make no moves until the Winter Mettings? When do those begin?

Looking forward to a fun offseason.

By rammerjammer

October 24, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this

Carolina Lady wields a velvet hammer.

By Matthew

October 24, 2006 04:26 PM | Link to this

Carolina Lady:

Dad has a database that lists every movie that John Wayne did. It is in Excel format(I think) and if you’d like to have a copy I could e-mail it to you. It is amazing to me that his career spanned five decades and I can count on one hand the number of movies of his that I don’t like. One just doesn’t see that anymore.

By KC

October 24, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

rammerjammer

I have a bit of a hard time picturing the Braves turning the leadoff position to Prado/Aybar at 2B… though Aybar did to a fine job in the leadoff role while filling in for Chipper. That may be exactly what they do, but it’s just hard for me to imagine.
I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion that Giles will be dealt, though if I had to guess right now, I’d say he will be traded this winter. If the Braves do pick up a leadoff hitter in LF, then it’s no big deal at all to turn 2B over to Prado and/or Aybar. It’ll be interesting to see what happens there. The 2B/leadoff situation is the only thing that seems up in the air to me.

I think it’s a near certainty that JS will add another solid veteran reliever or two. I don’t think the rotation will change unless it’s to add another top-of-the-rotation pitcher. Tom Glavine is unlikely, but if he really wants to retire a Braves, and is willing to settle for a measly little 8 million dollar – one year deal… it could happen.

My guess is that the rotation on opening day will be: Smoltz, Hudson, Hampton, Ramirez, James. (with Cormier and Davies waiting in the wings at Richmond as an ins. Policy).

By Carlos Amato

October 24, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this

I was just going through baseball-reference.com and began to bring back some “not so sweet” memories.

I remembered alright the 2 extra-innings losses in games 6 and 7 against the twins in 91, but I sure as hell didn’t remember the bullpen blowing up against the bluejays in 92.

I mean, we had leads going into the 8th in games 2 and 3. Does the name Reardon ring a bell?

Man, what a waste. And somebody in this blog said our bullpen back there wasn’t so awful…

By rammerjammer

October 24, 2006 04:47 PM | Link to this

Gotta log out for the day, KC, but appreciate the feedback! DOB seems to think Giles is history, based mainly on what could happen if he goes to arbitration. I’m ok with Prado, but would feel better if he hit eighth, not first.

I concur with your pitching observations.

By Head Coach

October 24, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this

I hate to bring this up because I’ve rehashed this a couple of times before , but if you missed it…. here it is. The Pirates were trying to trade Bonds back in the winter following the 1987 season and they actually offered him to the Braves straight up for Andres Thomas , Cox asked for them to include Van Slyke in the deal( he was the GM at the time). the Pirates countered with a Bonds/Van Slyke for Andres Thomas and Zane Smith offer. Sounds like a no brainer today doesnt it ? Cox said no and with good reason at the time. Zane Smith was a lefthanded pitcher coming off a 15 win season and Andres Thomas was rated the second best SS in the N.L. behind Barry Larkin. Bonds had just finished his second season and had barely begun to scratch his potential. Van Slyke was regarded as the better outfielder with his speed , power , gold glove and had five seasons under his belt. The 89 draft followed a few months later and Frank Thomas was the guy The Braves scouts wanted , Cox wanted Tyler Houston and the Braves took him with the second overall pick of the first round(Thomas went 7th five picks later). So , in the span of a few months Bonds , Thomas and Van Slyke got away. Picture the three of them in the Braves offense from 1990 on and we can only guess how many world championships they would have contributed. Question Cox the GM not Cox the hall of fame manager and now you can begin to understand the magnitude of just how close this franchise came to being an absolute dynasty.

By Carolina Lady

October 24, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

Wow, Matthew! I’d LOVE that! I’m sure this thing has some kind of program that will play it…..I think?! Sure would appreciate it! :-)))

Rammerjammer, I guess I’m just mindful that so many kids have some much negative influence to overcome these days - and it would be nice if they could at least read about their Braves without encountering more of it. Adults have to step up and show kids that they have a choice in their behavior and that there are many adults who have chosen to not delve into vulgarity. If they see ‘everybody’ doing it, they think it’s normal, accepted and expected. We influence them more than we realize. It’s easy to ‘forget where we are’ when posting and sometimes a gentle reminder is helpful. That’s all - just thinking of the kids. :-))

By David O'Brien

October 24, 2006 05:05 PM | Link to this

HEAD COACH: Was the ball doctored ? Did it have a foreign substance on it ? Was the ball scuffed ? these are questions I have yet to hear answered.

There’s 500 reporters here, coach, but how do you propose we answer those questions if the parties involved won’t give us a straight answer? it’s done. until kenny rogers or perhaps the catcher admits the balls were scuffed or doctored or whatever, it’s unlikely you’ll ever know. and why would they while still active players admit such a thing? to satisfy us?

TOM FROM GR, you were at the show in Detroit? I’m guessing GR is Grand Rapids? Damn, was that an amazing 2-1/2 hour show, or what? I can’t believe they perform 150-200 times a year and still put on a show like that for 500 or so folks paying $20. They put more into it than 99 percent of the bands I’ve paid two to five times as much cash to see perform.

By MGL

October 24, 2006 05:08 PM | Link to this

CL - Your gentle reminder was certainly done in good taste. I did my time in the Navy, but cringed over the 3:19 post. It’s an open forum, but it would be so much better if people would be decent in their language for the benefit of both children and most adults.

By Lew

October 24, 2006 05:21 PM | Link to this

Esteemed Journalist Jimmy-Me, a journalist? It must be honorary, like that Honorary Doctor of Laws Degree ole Ted got from the Vermont Law School (they are both apparently environmentally friendly). I attended the graduation wearing a Braves’ shirt. Ted noticed it, walking in the graduation procession with his cap and gown and yelled out “How ‘bout them Braves-You know Javy hit a HR last night?” He signed a baseball for me. I suppose I could be an honorary Journalist. Do I have to post under the title of “Honorary Journalist Lew”? Now baseball ( The Honorary Journalist pronounced in a journalistic manner)-Gary Matthews Jr. and Dewayne Wise are the baseball equivalents of light bulbs or disposable lighters. Who cares which one is playing for you? Having Wise instead of Matthews made absolutely no difference in the standings to where either team finished their respective seasons. No difference whatsoever.

By Matthew

October 24, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this

Carolina Lady:

E-mail me at mattunion99@yahoo.com, and I’ll figure out a way to get it to you.

By Carolina Lady

October 24, 2006 06:16 PM | Link to this

MGL, thanks! My Dad was in the Navy - WW2 and Korea.

Matthew, you have mail!

:-)

By journalist jimmy smith

October 24, 2006 06:23 PM | Link to this

lew became a journalist this morning when lew found an error in this journalist’s facts. seldom does that happen with journalist jimmy smith. this journalist has did many columns without errors of fact and today, poof! lew was kind to point out this error rather than skewering jimmy smith as so many on this blog do when esteemed wurlitzer prize winner journalist dob makes the occassional error. now, doctoring a baseball … how much doctoring is okay with larussa and how much doctoring is not okay? how much cork in a bat is acceptable? how much STEROID use is okay and when does it become not okay? mlb is a mess. now, nougat … this journalist had not considered nougat as a possible subastance on the hand of kenny rogers - and jimmy smith thinks it probably was not nougat. it may have, however, been a by-product of rich corinthian leather. kenny rogers’ glove is made of rich, corinthian leather, right? time will tell what the substance may have been. now, advice for dob … only two things …scoop the others now and tell the baseball world it was little debbie residue. you won’t regret it.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 24, 2006 06:26 PM | Link to this

journalist bob was also in the navy. served with john paul jones. jpj also liked molasses candy. whoa! could that have been the foreign substance? has bob offered kenny rogers some molasses candy?

By Carolina Lady

October 24, 2006 06:40 PM | Link to this

jjs, you never fail to make me smile! Thank you! :-)

35!! Welcome back! You were sorely missed, my friend! :-)

By Robert(Justice Is The Best)

October 24, 2006 06:58 PM | Link to this

Hello, everyone.

I really need to chime in on this whole Kenny Rogers “stickgate” or whatever the hell they are calling it. First of all, it has been blown way out of proportion. Was it mud on his hand as Kenny Rogers said? Well, hell no it wasn’t. It was clearly pine tar. But,he cleaned it off of his hand after the 1st inning and still shut them down for the next 7 inninngs. Plain and simple. Pine tar isn’t going to make the ball move funny. It was used to help him grip the ball better. Cardinal pitchers (off the record, of course) said they have done the same thing.

Now, some people are claiming some balls were scuffed. I think that is total bs. If anyone with the Cards thought that balls were scuffed, they would have said something during the game or right after it no matter what kind of relationship Leyland and LaRussa have. LaRussa would be included in that. This is the freaking WS. Friendship isn’t going to be considered. I highly doubt LaRussa would sacrifice a WS game just to keep Leyland from gettiing ticked off. LaRussa himself said yesterday that none of his hitters ever complained to him about the ball moving funny or anything of the such.

Is what Rogers did cheating? Well, if its in the rule books that pine tar can’t be on the hand, then yes it is. Is it some sort of horrendous violation of the game like Joe Morgan seems to think that it is? No.

I mean, hell, the pine tar was down at the base of his hand. So, who the hell cares? This whole thing has just ticked me off. It is nothing more than a media created controversy. John Kruk himself said last night on Baseball Tonight that hitters could care less if pitchers have pine tar on their hands because the only use it has for a pitcher is to help with grip on a cold night or if they are sweating profusely. The only reason it was even discovered was because the Fox cameras saw it and showed it on televsion. Someone in the Cards clubhouse saw it and informed LaRussa.

Joe Morgan is going on and on about cheating. Is it cheating when teams intentionally water down the infield to slow down fast runners and keep them from stealing? I think it is. But, no one makes a huge deal of it.

This whole thing is absolutely ridiculous!

By The Grinch

October 24, 2006 07:05 PM | Link to this

Carlos Amato: I assume you’re referring to my post about the early 90’s bullpen. If you’ll recall, I said everyone but Marvin Freeman and Jeff Reardon. My exact words were “…and Jeff Reardon was a HUGE mistake…” I remember cringing every time Bobby put him in, and the two games you mentioned Wohlers was at the peak of his game and warm and waiting in the bullpen when Bobby put in Reardon to blow the series. Hoo-ray for “experience.” The moves were highly questioned by sportswriters everywhere, as AL pitchers had seen Reardon for years (before interleague play that used to be much more of an advantage/disadvantage) and unlike Wickman now in similar circumstances, Reardon s…umm, didn’t play very well (there you go, CL). As I have mentioned several times before, I’m not an apologist for Bobby’s decisions (especially in the playoffs). Good Lord, we turned down Bonds, Van Slyke and Thomas for who? Yowch. Oh well, for every one of those blunders there’s always Nick Esasky…

By dadgum

October 24, 2006 07:11 PM | Link to this

Hello blogger friends. Been so busy lately and with baseball in a lull (so to speak)I haven’t really checked on the blog. Haven’t had the time to read all posts and it seems we have new vermin in the house so I won’t rehash all player scenarios and possible trades. We have beaten that horse senseless.

OK….seems all the country is pulling for Detroit. Obviously not marquee matchup but good story in Detroit. I mean St. Louis just isn’t sexy if you will. LaRussa looks like a stool pidgeon in shades. His team reflecting that. I like Detroit in 6 if they win tonight 7 if they don’t. Verlander will kick butt next outing. Still shocked St. Louis is in the series but glad the METS are not ditto YANKEES.

DOB……….DBT’s must be something!! Will check them out especially if they cover Eighteen by Alice. A truly great song which by the way Alice is doing quite adequately with his current lineup too. Till next time shall we set the mouse traps? duh huh…

By The Grinch

October 24, 2006 07:23 PM | Link to this

Jimmy Smith, are you saying Ricardo Montalbon is somehow involved in this conspiracy? Does Kenny Rogers drive a Chrysler? Did he stretch his arms out and yell “KHAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!” at the mirror in the locker room after the 1st when he was discovered? Inquiring minds want to know. Nougat may very well not be the substance in question, but I felt a need to use this blog as a soapbox to champion its criminal under-mentioning. If I wasn’t a jock, I’d start a “Nerds for Nougat” movement here. Your explanation of Bob with JPJ makes a lot of sense…history says the famous quote “I have not yet begun to fight” occured when the colors of his ship were shot away during battle, and in the interim when trying to send up another flag the British Captain asked him if he’d struck. We now know that it was because his mouth was full of molasses candy. Oh, the hydrography!

Robert(JIB), excellent post (6:58). Joe Morgan is to baseball what Joe Buck is to football in that respect. Hmmm. Coincidence?

By The Grinch

October 24, 2006 07:28 PM | Link to this

Dadgum, Alice Cooper’s in the playoffs? Welcome back. Ditto to 35 (and Drunky Clint).

By JJMB

October 24, 2006 08:41 PM | Link to this

Nougat is an excellent jumble word.

By MEB

October 24, 2006 08:45 PM | Link to this

There were a couple of games this year that Smoltz complained that the ball felt slick and he could not get a feel for the ball. Surely a veteran like John is aware of the benefits of nougat, molasses candy, or pine tar. Since the Baby Ruth candy bar is the official candy bar of the major leagues does that make it legal for use?

By The Grinch

October 24, 2006 09:16 PM | Link to this

Ha! The nougat conspiracy is afoot! There’s no stopping it now…

Tell you what, though, MEB; it’s disturbing that the Curtiss candy company has marketed the “Babe Ruth” since 1921 as being named after Grover Cleveland’s daughter, when in fact it came out 17 years after she died and coincidentally right when the Babe was getting hugely popular. When the makers of the “Babe Ruth Home Run Bar,” who actually had the naming rights from Ruth, tried to sue they lost because of this misleading official company line. It figures, the official candy bar of MLB is itself a story of greed and corruption. They’re quite tasty, however.

JJMB, is “Jumble” some sort of anagram game?

By Lew

October 24, 2006 09:32 PM | Link to this

MEB-Good question about the Baby Ruth bar-perhaps Wicky would know? 35-You and Clint doing alright? What’s this about Clint abstaining? Him and Grinch, right? Esteemed Journalist Jimmy-I appreciate the promotion. I am gratified that you do not feel skewered. I know you felt somewhat polled in the past on some subject or other, though it was meant for others. Dadgum-Alice is still good after all of these years (check out his cd Dirty Diamonds), but I fear he left 18 in the dust (age wise anyway) decades ago.

By JJMB

October 24, 2006 09:34 PM | Link to this

Yeah Grinch, you know, it’s with the crossword puzzle. At the end you have to solve a cartoon? I thinks it helps my spatial ability. Turning things over, rearranging things in the brain. It’s a real hoot d;^>

By Lew

October 24, 2006 09:36 PM | Link to this

Damn The Torpedoes. Full speed ahead. Wasn’t that a Tom Petty album?

By Jim

October 24, 2006 09:39 PM | Link to this

On another topic. Has anyone noticed how Pujols plays first base when he is holding on the runner? He is at least 2 feet in front of and to the right of the bag and doesn’t even bother to take a swipe at the runner (or even look at him) when there is a throw over. Molina may have a great arm, but he’ll have to be Johnny Bench to have any chance of catching a good base stealer that takes advantage of the extra step that Pujols seems to be offering the runner.

By The Grinch

October 24, 2006 09:43 PM | Link to this

I use different methods to turn things over and rearrange them in my brain. :-) Maybe I should switch to “Jumble,” though; I’d probably have fewer dents in my car. I wonder if nougat would be an effective substitute for bondo?

By journalist jimmy smith

October 24, 2006 10:01 PM | Link to this

this world series would be better with bob rathbun and jeff torborg. throw in ron gant. oh, the humanity! now, nougat … it ain’t nougat without nuts. yes, lew, this journalist was polled awhile back and still has fears of taking another polling. if dob doesn’t break the little debbie story soon this journalist will offer the story to guy curtright. still, loyalty to dob makes journalist hesitant to do so. no one has mentioned pomade. perhaps it was pomade.

By Carolina Lady

October 24, 2006 10:05 PM | Link to this

Grinch, smear a good coat of grits on it and let it dry. When that stuff sets up, they could use it to attach tiles on the space shuttle - ‘cause it ain’t coming off! (Sand lightly before painting.) :-)

By journalist jimmy smith

October 24, 2006 10:12 PM | Link to this

diane lane could make bondo pudding. lovely girl but couldn’t cook. she still calls here to “speak with baby seal” but journalist knows what she wants. now, oh, the humanity! clydesdales on the field! ckydesdaes on the field! talk about foreign substance! this blog is going nowhere with robert gone. someone say something about bobby cox.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 24, 2006 10:19 PM | Link to this

clydesdales

By MEB

October 24, 2006 10:34 PM | Link to this

Interesting article on what the truth actually is regarding stain-gate. Kenny was more comfortable using either shaving cream or suntan lotion but due to the cold he used pine tar which he lacked experience in using.

[http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/10/23/scoop.rogers/index.html]

By The Grinch

October 24, 2006 10:55 PM | Link to this

Jimmy Smith, you think Kenny was hanging out on a Budweiser commercial set before the game? :-) Maybe he’d been reading this blog and was using some of Shaun’s oatmeal without salt.

CL, regular grits or cheese grits?

By Carolina Lady

October 24, 2006 10:57 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the link, MEB! Very interesting! :-)

By Carolina Lady

October 24, 2006 11:02 PM | Link to this

Regular, Grinch. Cheese melts too easy.

By MEB

October 24, 2006 11:08 PM | Link to this

Grinch are you saying that the Clydesdales left a Stinky and somehow poor Kenny was left with pooh on the heel of his hand. Oh, the humanity!

By journalist jimmy smith

October 24, 2006 11:12 PM | Link to this

meb may be onto something. suntan lotion. coppertone. or, perhaps aloe. green aloe in a bottle. sticky stuff. or maybe barbecue sauce. wicky would be well suited to use barbecue sauce. now, tomato base? vinegar base? mustard? oh, the humanity! here it comes! journalist has opened the proverbial can of werms with the discussion of barbecue sauce. hope it is not blue werms. and what of cole slaw on the barbecue! this is not done in polite company.

By The Grinch

October 24, 2006 11:16 PM | Link to this

Maybe Kenny was chcking to see if Clydesdales are really Scottish by looking under their kilts…D’oh!

By flbravesgirl

October 24, 2006 11:22 PM | Link to this

I agree that too much is being made of the “smudge”. He pitched just fine the rest of the game without it. Of course, Fox would never try to stir up controversy, would they?

Grinch, I wasn’t ignoring you. Just had limited blogging time lately and when I do check in, it’s the same person with the same rant over and over and over…. taking over the blog. I expect to have more time now, so hopefully I will get to be here at the same time as you, CL, jimmy, Lew, and all the other people I like here (as opposed to the ranter). Now, nougat- If you really want to indulge, order the Italian torrone that WilliamsSonoma (my toy store) carries at Christmastime. It’s pricey but reeeeaally good.

By Scalp 'em Braves

October 24, 2006 11:28 PM | Link to this

The Tiggers are toast tonight. Here’ an interesting question to ponder. If the Tiggers win the next two, and go up 3-2, would LaRussa pitch Carpenter on 3 days rest?

By MEB

October 24, 2006 11:33 PM | Link to this

Cole slaw on barbeque is indeed a practice best done when one is alone and not visible to the public. When given the opportunity to feast like this it truly feels like one of the seven deadly sins (gluttony) but it feels and tastes so, so good. You know I even like a good hot dog with spicy mustard and a generous portion of cole slaw placed on top.

By Scalp 'em Braves

October 24, 2006 11:44 PM | Link to this

The night in Bama is chilly.. nice fire burning and the dogs are laying at my feet. Time to reflect on why I am pulling for the Tiggers in the WS. Not because of the “worst to first” phenomena. Rather, because of one roster player for Detroit… Todd Jones.

Todd, an Atlanta native, played college ball in Alabama, married an Alabama girl, and has settled here. He has been a journeyman reliever, and has had his ups and downs over the years. But, through it all, he has been a class act. He doesn’t drink, raise hell on the road, doesn’t do drugs, and speaks him mind. He has written a column published in our paper (Birmingham) each Sunday during the season for about 7 years. I look forward to his frank “insider” look at baseball, the game, and baseball, the business.

Todd is what is good about the game. He plays the game hard, and respects the game. He has had a burning desire to play for the Braves forever. Yet, this past off season, after having earned “comeback player of the year” honors, was rebuffed by JS as the Braves closer, even though he was willing to play in Atlanta for much less than what he signed for in Detroit (at least, that is my understanding). One can only wonder if he would have saved 40 games for us, as he did for the Tiggers, and if so, what sort of difference that would have made for our season, not to mention the effect he may have had on younger relievers during the season, as Beefy Bob did after his acquisition.

Todd represents everytning good about the game. Wherever he goes, I will root for his team to win, unless he is trying to shut down my beloved Braves.

By Scalp 'em Braves

October 24, 2006 11:49 PM | Link to this

Geez Mah-neez - Carpenter throws a gem - 8 innings, 82 pitches. The guy really stepped up. Outside of the boneheaded throw by Zumaya, the Tigers didn’t play bad - just got abused by a pitcher REALLY on his game tonight.

By The Grinch

October 24, 2006 11:53 PM | Link to this

FLBgirl, you have good taste in bloggers (with the possible exception of Lew). WilliamsSonoma sounds like a vineyard. Some wine with your nougat? Oh, the austerity!

MEB, run to the patent office quick! I think you’ve discovered the slaw dog. Don’t tell the Varsity or Dairy Queen. :-)

Night, all; got an early morning.

By flbravesgirl

October 25, 2006 12:08 AM | Link to this

Now you can’t tell me that Grinch, master of the grill, doesn’t know WilliamsSonoma - the awesome kitchenware store. (And don’t pick on Lew; some of his art would go well with your decor.)

Scalp ‘em, nice post. It’s always refreshing to hear about one of the good guys in the game.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 01:04 AM | Link to this

So much for the notion of Carpenter running out of gas. He’s pitched more than 510 innings over two seasons (and postseasons), but that dude was absolutely nails tonight. 55 strikes, 82 pitches, three singles, no walks, eight innings.

The Tigers are hitting .185 _ ONE EIGHTY FIVE _ in the World Series.

Is this really the team the Braves played right after the All-Star break here in St. Louie? I guess not.

Hey, surprised there’s no talk here about the Andruw story posted on our site. Folks, after talking to Scott Boras tonight, I’d really be shocked if Andruw’s back. Just going to get too expensive for Braves’ blood. We’re talking big, big contract. Don’t even think about a hometown discount. Not when he’s going to be asking teams to pony up more than $20 mill a year for Andruw. What’s he going to do, take $6 mill or so less a year to stay with the Braves? I doub it very seriously.

And there just might be a team willing to give him around $20 mill a year. I’ve got a strong suspicion the Angels are sizing him up and will give him a huge offer provided Andruw has a healthy and productive 2007 season.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 01:24 AM | Link to this

Thank You FlBravesGirl-I think my artwork would go well with anyone’s decor. Grinch is just jealous because I’m now a journalist and he’s not.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 01:26 AM | Link to this

DOB-At least we get the benefit of his walk away season. Then we have lots of money to spend on his replacement and pitching. We can’t lose either way.

By Head Coach

October 25, 2006 01:55 AM | Link to this

The question is: Do you want the 20 million or do you want the .265 35-40 HR 100-120 RBI gold glove Hall of fame centerfielder ? The Braves have hinted that the payroll will go up , how much is anyones guess. I say sign him even though its an insane amount of money and a huge risk tying up 25 percent of the team payroll in one player. Maybe a three year guaranteed contract with a team option for a fourth and fifth season ? I wouldn’t go any longer than that.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 02:13 AM | Link to this

Very high chance of rain tomorrow here in St. Louis, and a lot of it. Could be another rainout.

And guess who happens to be playing at Mississippi Nights in downtown St. Louie tomorrow night? Yes, those same Drive-By Truckers….

By Head Coach

October 25, 2006 02:33 AM | Link to this

So , the Cardinals are up 2-1 and we have ourselves a barn burner of a series. It’s a lot better than the whitewash I was expecting from the Tigers. I would love to be wrong if the Cardinals win it all.

By 2007 Mets

October 25, 2006 07:01 AM | Link to this

I read post after post here stating that the national league didn’t have a chance against the ameican league in the world series. Just like your countless predictions of disaster for the Mets, it shows many of you don’t know s-h-i-t.

By Bravo Nam

October 25, 2006 07:10 AM | Link to this

Caroline Lady Thanks for your kind words.

Robert No need to rush back.

DOB Really surprised by the lack of response to the Andruw story. After everyone’s fors and againsts of keeping him on this blog, I think this article is remarkably revealing. What we now know for sure:

a). No hometown discount and 18 mill/season. Even at 15 mill/season he’d be too much for the Braves.

b). Boras is going to do the negotiating this time around, not Dad!

If you’re JS, you tell yourself one thing immediately- no way known the Braves can afford him after next year. He’s gone. This means he’s only here for one more year.

Boras said that the only thing he knew for sure was that AJ will be a Brave in 2007. I assume this is because of the no trade clause. But…let’s rewind back a few weeks ago…Andruw outlined back then that he wanted to stay a Brave, but if the Braves didn’t want him, he’d agree to be traded, coz he doesn’t want to stay with a team that doesn’t want him.

If I’m JS, I go to AJ now and say that unless he’s prepared to negotiate this season for a contract extension with the Braves, they want to trade him. AJ will want to be traded. JS then needs to find out which teams Andruw would agree to…and start talking turkey with them. Just be ludicrous to let AJ walk next year…and no way known if you trade him middle of the season that you’re going to get anywhere near the compensation you’d get compared to trading him now.

Great story DOB- floored by lack of reaction on this blog- Braves need to start looking at trading AJ right now.

By Bravo Nam

October 25, 2006 07:41 AM | Link to this

2007 Mets You wrote: ” I read post after post here stating that the national league didn’t have a chance against the ameican league in the world series. Just like your countless predictions of disaster for the Mets, it shows many of you don’t know s-h-i-t.”

Ahhh, well, actually many of the bloggers did know s** after all! Some predicted the Mets would go out in the first round of the playoffs, and some the league championship…I’d say a good number know s**!

By Shaun

October 25, 2006 08:03 AM | Link to this

Head Coach,

I love your maturity level.

Why would Ted Turner want to pay for that many star players—Bonds, Van Slyke, Frank Thomas, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, etc.—when he won titles and came pretty darn close to winning a couple of World Series with guys like Glavine, Smoltz, Justice, Gant, Pendleton, etc.?

By Shaun

October 25, 2006 08:17 AM | Link to this

nathan,

Well, it’s hard to imagine the Braves would have signed both Maddux and Bonds if Bonds would have picked the Braves. And if they had signed Bonds or somehow both Bonds and Maddux, they likely would not have been able to keep Bonds, Maddux, Chipper, Andruw, Glavine, Smoltz…

I forgot how this started, but it’s kindof out of hand now. Oh, yeah, the Braves could have been a dynasty had they acquired Van Slyke, Bonds and Frank Thomas. Well, why would you acquire a ton of star players when you have plenty of solid young guys coming up who play the same positions and you already have plenty of stars? It’s hard to imagine getting all those guys would have made much of a difference in the Braves winning more World Series. You get those guys you probably have to subtract quite a few other solid or star players.

By 2007 Mets

October 25, 2006 08:29 AM | Link to this

bravo nam, you neglected to include the predictions that the Mets would not play winning baseball. Would not win the division and would not get past the 1st round of the playoffs once they faced better pitching. I think that’s called selective memory. Did I mention it was the braves that didn’t play winning baseball.

By MEB

October 25, 2006 08:45 AM | Link to this

I think Braves fans are reluctant to talk about the eventual loss of Andruw to another team because we don’t want to face a season without him in centerfield. I’m still hopeful that Andruw will realize that being a star and fixture in the Atlanta community will last his entire lifetime and cannot be measured in money. Los Angeles or Anaheim will not offer the same recognition factor because he will never be considered a home grown star.

Grinch… I claim no rights to the “slaw dog” as my favorite Aunt Jean in Texas introduced me to them as a kid over 40 years ago. My uncle JD also slow cooked an awesome brisket which compliments cole slaw perfectly.

By The Grinch

October 25, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this

FLBgirl, I wasn’t talking about Lew’s artwork (some of it already makes up some of my decor); I was referring to his personality. Look at him. Barely into his second day as an honorary journalist and he’s strutting around like Mick Jagger. As for my lack of knowledge regarding name brand cookware stores, where I come from most of the best grills come from roofing tin, 50-gallon drums and a chainsaw. Never mind that my current one comes from Home Depot; it was a rare indulgence.

DOB and Bravo Nam, I started to bring up Andruw last night but I had to go to bed. I also have to leave in about 5 minutes, so I’ll just say to everyone enjoy Andruw as much as you can this season. Go to as many games as you can and record the rest; he’s a Braves legend and completely irreplaceable, whatever Shaun may say. We may be technically better off with the freed up payroll in 2008, but the soul of the team will be altered for the worse. THANK YOU, CORPORATE OWNERSHIP. If we had a real owner, we wouldn’t even be discussing this. Sad, sad times. Andruw should still be pich-hitting for us when he’s 40. Later, all.

By Shaun

October 25, 2006 09:00 AM | Link to this

BravoNam, MEB:

I’ve already thown in my two cents a million times. The Braves should trade Andruw Jones for two or three quality young players. We know for sure that he’s going to get more expensive, yet he’s not likely to get much better. Sure, he’s going to remain very productive, but he’s already peaked.

By Shaun

October 25, 2006 09:20 AM | Link to this

Andruw should still be pich-hitting for us when he’s 40. Later, all.

At $10 million a year he should be pinch-hitting for the Braves at 40?

Andruw Jones is not the player that Alex Rodriguez is, yet the Mariners and the Rangers were just fine after he left…in fact, they were better. So I don’t think the “soul of the team” will necessarily be altered for the worse.

The Braves would, if they are smart about it, be better off trading Andruw for two or three good young players and spending the rest of that money on even more quality players.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 09:42 AM | Link to this

2007Mets-All season long we were informed by Mets fans that anything less than winning it all was nothing and was meaningless. Maybe so. How does it feel to have a meaningless season? Again. It seems to me that all the Mets got this year was a bumper sticker saying “THe Cards went to the World Series and all I got was this stuopid Flag”. How does it feel? Was it worth all of your chest thumping and crotch grabbing?

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

Shaun, the problem is, the Braves aren’t going to get as much value for Jones as people might think. Not at this stage of the game, because of this simple reason: No team is going to give up a load of young talent for a player who’s going to cost a fortune to re-sign, who’s represented by Scott Boras, and is certainly not going to give that team a guarantee that he’ll re-sign with them a year in advance of actually becoming a free agent.

The Braves aren’t going to get the type of package that John S. indicated to Boston it would take to get Andruw when the Sox tried in July. And if they’re not going to get a ton of talent back, and since Scott Boras made it sound like Andruw would reject a trade anyway, the Braves can probably just hope to get a helluva season from him this year _ which I’m betting they’ll get, because Andruw has every reason in the world to drop the 15 pounds he says he plans to lost this winter and come back and have a huge season in his free-agent walk year. Imagine how much Boras might be able to squeeze from some team if Andruw were to have, say, a .275-50-130 year at age 30 and win his 10th consecutive Gold Glove.

I’d bet he could get $20 mill a year for him. I’ve got a feeling the market’s about to soar again, given labor peace and the public acknowledgment that the sport is making money hand over fist. I had to laugh when I read a couple of posts on the other blog they put up for responses to the Andruw story. Couple of people talked about the terrible state of baseball economics and this is why attendance keeps going down and blah blah blah.

Folks, two undisputable facts: Baseball revenues have never been even close to as high as they are now (more than 5 freakin’ billion in 2006) and attendance has set all-time highs for each of the past two seasons. Those are facts. Sorry, but they are. I agree everything’s out of whack, ticket prices too high, salaries too high, etc. But it is what it is, and the corporations and general public combined are supporting it enough to keep driving it all higher.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 09:48 AM | Link to this

Shaun-I still very much doubt that Andruw would bring your three prospects, but the point is moot. He will be here in 07. Afterwards, it appears we will have approximately $1`3.5 million to spend on a new center fielder. In case you weren’t aware. He can’t be traded without his approval. Read the Chop Talk article by Andruw or DOB’s article from last night. He is not going to accept a trade.

By geauxbraves2000

October 25, 2006 09:49 AM | Link to this

Sometimes baseball nowadays really sucks. What ever has happened to loyalty. It’s not loyalty anymore, it’s the highest bidder. How much money could one person need?

The Braves without AJ is completely unfathomable in my book, but if he becomes greedy, let him walk. He, not Scott Boras, has the final say.

And yes, if someone offered me a better job with higher pay, I’d proably take it. But I make $10 hour, not $6009.61 an hour (40 hrs/52 weeks) Big difference.

Geaux Braves!!

By Carolina Lady

October 25, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this

Boras is greedy and money-hungry. I hope Andruw has the maturity to opt for happiness and peace of mind in ATL. He will immensely regret leaving if he leaves the Braves. There are only two players who should never leave the Braves: John Smoltz and Andruw Jones. The Book says ‘What does it prosper a man to gain the whole world but to lose his own soul.’

By Lew

October 25, 2006 10:02 AM | Link to this

DOB-All of your points are right on target. Add to them the fact that in the new Collective Bargaining Agreement that MLB has now raised the minimum salaries for the luxury tax to $136.5 mil next year, $148 mil in 08 and all the way to $178 million by 2011 and it seems like MLB is ready to spend some serious bucks for payroll over the next five years, At those rates, only the Yankees will be paying a luxury tax by this year’s standards. Andruw is gone in 08.

By 2007 Mets

October 25, 2006 10:02 AM | Link to this

Lew, My issue/complaint was with braves fans who acted as if they had won 14 world series instead of divisions. Nothing more nothing less. Yes, the Mets accomplished much this season but it failed on it’s primary mission of winning a title so in that regard it was a failure. This was echo’d by the General manager Omar Minaya which I like because this means he’ll work hard to get us to that next level next year. As for the chest thumping and crotch grabbing. Lets be honest, there are PLENTY of brave fans whe have been doing that for the last 14 years. So, look at your fellow fans first before you start pointing fingers. I sense some bitterness on your part for the failures of the braves and the Mets basically kicking your asses this past season. correct me if I’m wrong.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 10:05 AM | Link to this

Morning Ma’am-Yes, lose your soul, but build a batting cage in your living room.

By Shaun

October 25, 2006 10:10 AM | Link to this

O’Brien and Lew,

I agree that AJ may not bring in as much because now the Braves must trade him where he wants to go, if he approves a trade at all. And also everyone knows he’s going to be very expensive. But I can see a team like Boston or the White Sox giving up two solid young players/prospects for him, which would be fine with me—better than losing him and getting a draft pick.

Schuerholz hasn’t had to deal with this situation too much with the Braves. With Maddux and Glavine, I don’t know if there were any trade offers out there and it was clear Schuerholz wouldn’t receive any value for them. But with Jones he may receive at least a couple of offers for some potentially valuable players. He’ll have to weigh how valuable those players are/can become and if it’s worth it to pull the trigger. It should be fun to watch.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 10:17 AM | Link to this

2007 Mets-I wasn’t one who ever said anything to Mets fans. Never went on a Mets site a single time. My experience with Mets fans is from them coming to this blog to give us grief. It has made me determined to never be a Mets fan. As far as bitterness-only towards you for your nasty and somewhat disgusting comments to me the other day. Have you noticed that you are the only Mets fan with the cojones to come here and talk smack after getting your behinds handed to you by a team that won 83 games. No, I’m not bitter, but excuse me if I’m not disappointed by a Cardinals WS appearance.

By Shaun

October 25, 2006 10:22 AM | Link to this

geauxbraves2000,

Loyalty used to be tied into the reserve clause—players were stuck with their original teams until they were traded or let go.

And it’s not about getting what you need, it’s about getting as much as you can; which I would argue is something we all do unless we absolutely have to settle for only what we need. The players rationalize it (which is also something we all do when we are uncomfortable with our behavior) because they can only play 10, 15, 20 years at most.

Yeah, players and owners are greedy, but not any more than the rest of us. And the fact remains if we stopped watching baseball on TV and stopped going to games, the owners and player would be forced to do something. We haven’t been willing to stop doing that. So there is plenty of blame to go around; it’s not as simple as blaming just those greedy players or those greedy owners.

By 2007 Mets

October 25, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this

I apologize for my comment toward you…..Realy. I just felt you were mocking Beltran and the Mets. I guess I was a little defensive. I come to this blog because I like the back and forth with a division rival. You don’t get the same feed back at a Mets blog. I’m not gonna run and hide when the Mets lose. I’m proud of the season overall but disapointed with the end result. I know we’ll be back based on the comments made by Minaya. This spells bad news for the braves. He’ll get us where we need to be to win it all in 2007.

By eware

October 25, 2006 10:36 AM | Link to this

DOB, what is your take on Scott Boras? Is he a jerk outside of business deals also? Are young players still signing with him? Does he represent anyone else on the Braves?

Any thoughts on the new Lost Highway artist Bernard Fanning?

Or M. Ward?

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 10:40 AM | Link to this

Bravo Nam, I think the lack of response here last night was due to the very high number of responses to the blog they refered to just below the Andruw story. Lot of folks went there to vent.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 10:46 AM | Link to this

‘07 Mets, you can’t get the “back and forth” on the Mets blog because they aren’t kindred souls with the Man in Black, Hank or Haggard, they don’t abide, they’re not passionate about barbecue or hush puppies, they don’t debate the films of Scorsese or John Wayne, and, plain and simple, they don’t abide. They just yak about da Mets and Yanks. Bor-ring.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 25, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

and now, what is this talk of losing the jones boy? everyone should know that he is the face of the braves. of course, that face is covered with scraggly chin hair tangled with seed, gum, and tobacco residue - but no matter - he also is an eloquent spokesman for the team. this team can ill afford to lose chipper jones. what? what, baby seal? not chipper? andruw! oh, the humanity! the braves must not lose andruw! still, they cannot keep him at $20 million. where is felix pie?

By Lew

October 25, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this

2007 Mets-I accept your apology. Yes, the Mets may, indeed, spend their way to a World Title. Same with the Yankees, Red Sox or Blue Jays. This may especially be true now that baseball has instituted the anti-salary cap with their stupid luxury tax system. With the caps as high as they just made them, the luxury tax becomes a joke aimed at Steinbrenner-no one else would have come close to having to pay with this year’s salaries. I suppose I am as much at blame as anyone. This year my wife or I attended games in San Diego, Boston, Baltimore and Toronto. This year I will see the Braves in Boston, and Atlanta and will be seeing the Royals-DRays in KC. I suppose we are helping to support the greed. I guess I’ll have to have to settle for not drinking beer, thereby supporting them even more. Sure do like those Fenway cheeseburgers, though.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

DOB-You forgot pie and banana pudding. Definitely no banana pudding on the Mets’ sites. We certainly don’t want to forget Diane Lane or Scarlett Johansen, either. Those two are definitely worth abiding with. Well, this Honorary Journalist must go feed the diabetic beast. I wonder if I can achieve grace by listening to Arc Angels? Who knows? Surely I will find out with help from the Great Potato.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 11:04 AM | Link to this

eware, haven’t heard Fanning, but I love M. Ward. Got his last two CDs, including the one that just came out a few weeks ago. I pumped him up here a couple months ago, but didn’t get much response. Folks hadn’t heard him. Obscure, I know. But isn’t he great? What a unique talent.

Now, on to Boras… where to start?

Yes, plenty of players signing with the Evil Genius (kidding). I get a feeling fewer top young guys are, but same number of stars. He’s without question the most powerful agent in the sport, with more marquee players than any other agency.

Is he a jerk? Gotta tell you folks this: As much as his approach irks me and as much as I hate how money is the be-all, end-all 99 percent of the time with him in negotiations, he really is a brilliant guy and, just in my conversations with him on the phone, when we’re off the record talking about stuff, and in my dealings with him in person, I really kind of … OK, this is tough to say, I know it might brand me … I like him. Really.

He’s interesting, extremely smart, and just ballsy beyond belief. I like hardasses, and he’s one. If Michael Jordan or Bobby Knight or Brian Urlacher were an agent, they’d be Boras. And you guys would probably be quite surprised at his political leanings, which I’m not going to get into here, because we like to keep Braves and The Man In Black unsoiled by politics and abortion.

Again, I cringe sometimes at the things he says and the deals he gets _ the A-Rod deal, obviously comes to mind _ and how he leverages one team against another and how he’ll say he has another, bigger offer from this team or that team that he can’t disclose _ yeah, right _ in order to drive up the price for his client.

But you know what? If I was his client, I’d be happy he was doing it, happy he was being relentless and leaving no stone unturned in his efforts to get me the best deal possible. Then it’s up to the client to take it or not.

I mean he’s not Drew Rosenhaus. He’s not saying stupid things in interviews that make his client and himself look like a tool. He’s enormously shrewd and cutthroat, but he’s not pimping for the cameras and letting his ego get in the way of his advice to clients. He’s not ruining reputations like T.O.’s has been ruined, at least in part, by Rosenhaus.

I hate him at times, but I have a lot of respect for how good he is. And I honestly like talking to him because I know i’m talking to a person who’s just brilliant. And it’s rare when you get to talk to people you really have that sense about.

By 2007 Mets

October 25, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this

DOB….My interaction with brave fans has nothing to do with Men in black or hush puppies. I just think it puts a different twist on things when opposing fans interact. You’re entitled to your opinions even if they’re a bit biased. There’s plenty of culture in the NY area even if you don’t/can’t appreciate it.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 25, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

dob, perhaps boras could negotiate a column for you with ms. cox chambers. the canned hams were all consumed but there has been no announcement.

By Miss Manners

October 25, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this

There’s plenty of culture in buttermilk.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 11:35 AM | Link to this

‘07 Mets _ do you not comprehend levity and irreverence? Sarcasm? My goodness, dude. Lighten up. There was not one ounce of malice or ill will in that message. Merely roses for the denizens of the blog here. Don’t be so defensive. I don’t think any of us, and certainly not me, believes there’s a lack of culture in NY. I love the city and its immense culture, just past the age when I’d aspire to live there for a few years.

But you really missed the intention of that post. You don’t live in NY, do you? I can always tell because folks who live there let stuff like that go right by. They don’t have time or reason to care what some Southern hack like me thinks.

Abide, man. And chill.

By 10-7-4

October 25, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this

Mornin all— DOB, you’ve obviously never spoken to Drunky Clint either. He gives one a lasting impression also. Good post though DOB, I respect your ‘telling it like it is’ about Boras.

By 2007 Mets

October 25, 2006 11:42 AM | Link to this

Lew…..”Buy their way to a World Series”?? I doubt you were leading a petition against spending when Ted Turner owned the braves. I know you’re gonna try to put one of those patented Lew spins on you next post to try and respond. The braves were among the top 10 in payrolls this last year and I’m sure they were in the top five when Ted was signing checks.

By eware

October 25, 2006 11:46 AM | Link to this

Thanks for the thoughts on Boras - it gives me a better perspective of him. Though I still think he’s a snake.

Could you inform me about Albert Pujols current contract and when it expires. Cause I bet his next contract will dwarf anything Andruw and Boras could dream of.

By 2007 Mets

October 25, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this

I live across the Hudson in Jersey. I have the perfect view of the Manhatten skyline. My parents are from Brooklyn and Da Bronx. My bad on interpreting your post. Maybe I’m spending too much time watching re-runs of the Sopranos. I’ll ease up.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 11:53 AM | Link to this

Besides, any city that produced the Ramones and Velvet Underground, not to mention Bob Cousy and Julius Erving, is very cool in my estimation. And Sinatra and Springsteen are from Jersey. Close enough, right?

By rammerjammer

October 25, 2006 12:09 PM | Link to this

DOB, I think your perceived lack of response to your story is due to a collective resignation that Andruw is gone after this season unless the new ownership makes a significant commitment to raise the payroll. And that’s not likely.

So there’s no sense getting all emotionally charged up about it. Boros will play his mind games to ratchet up the price, and we’ll watch.

JS knows we’re out of it; he tried to shop Andruw under the radar. It was a long shot that didn’t work and the window has closed.

There’s NO motivation for Andruw to approve a trade, not when zillions await him in ‘08 and beyond.

His only gamble in not taking a trade and/or new contract is that something bad (injury, slump) will happen next season and his value will plummet. That’s his risk.

I, for one, hope he has a terrific 2007 and leads us to a World Series title.

By 22oz

October 25, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

For anyone who saw FSN visit andruw’s house last season, we all can see that he needs 20 mil a year. Did you see that place? what a dump. he only has ONE indoor batting cage people. JUST ONE. And a seven car garage? Where is he supposed to put cars 8-11? THe guest house? Just barely 3x bigger than mine. Pony up the dough Braves, the man has been scrounging around on a measley 15 mil a year for your team. its time to return the favor.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 12:26 PM | Link to this

agreed on lack of reason for Andruw to veto trades. he can have a big year wheer he’s comfortable, for a team that should have a winning season, and then break the bank.

Just checked and there’s about 150 responses on the extra blog they set up for Andruw reactions. So I don’t feel slighted.

By flbravesgirl

October 25, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this

Nice of Boras to let us know a year in advance that the Braves have zero chance of keeping Andruw. DOB, he might be nice to you off the record, but business-wise the man is a festering boil on the rear end of baseball.

By Drummerdad

October 25, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

DOB, I like your thoughts on this thing with Andruw. He’ll have his Javy Lopez year in ‘07 with us. He softened us up by saying he wanted to stay a Brave at the end of the season. But he and Darth Boras knew the plan of attack even back then. Boras most likely resents the fact that Schuerholz got away with the last contract. And I agree with your assessment that Boras’s counsel to Andruw is NO TRADES. What I read is more than an intimation and less than a direct statement. When he says Andruw is in control, it means he (Boras) is in control. All of us sappy fans should start kissing the boy goodbye now. I almost wish that the Braves could acquire a center fielder now and start building with him. But that is knee jerk and seems like payback. But my sentiment is if he’s moving on, then we should too. And the sooner, the better. The money these guys are making is … my words can’t describe.

We should tell him goodbye now, because his handler has blown the horn that the ship is leaving the harbor. Wave a hankie or a foam tom-a-hawk.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

bravesgirl, I didn’t say he was necessarily “nice” to me. He’s actually cursed a blue streak at me a couple of times when i wrote things he didn’t like. i was expecting him to call this morning and say something i wrote yesterday was off the record or whatever. (He’ll call at all hours, citing the time difference or whatever. I swear, I don’t think the man sleeps more than a few hours a day.)

I just said I respect his brilliance at what he does, his brass balls, and his ability to get the biggest possible deal for his clients. I don’t necessarily like it at times, and if I was looking at it from a fan’s persepective fan’s I’m certain I’d destest him. Can’t say I blame you at all for your opinion of him.

But he’s good. Damn, is he good.

By rammerjammer

October 25, 2006 01:11 PM | Link to this

Great point D Dad. A guy like Boros has GOT to resent an equally self-confident Schuerholz over what happened last time.

He’s leaving JS twisting in the wind, and he’s loving it.

By Drummerdad

October 25, 2006 01:15 PM | Link to this

DOB, He’s good at what he does like Sherman was when he marched through the South. Hey, this next question may be too much looking around the corner, but what do you think the Braves will look like in ‘08? And, you ever hear a group out there called “Working Title”?

By journalist jimmy smith

October 25, 2006 01:22 PM | Link to this

homeboy upstairs can handle matters. remember, when someone wrote that homeboy upstairs’ son was not a major league prospect? hmmm … caught between a homeboy and an evil genius. bet on the homeboy.

By Drummerdad

October 25, 2006 01:27 PM | Link to this

rammerjammer, I don’t think JS is twisting. He knows what’s going to happen and has for a while. But we could probably say that this is Karloff (Boras, that is) sticking it to him and they both know it. If you haven’t read Schuerholz’s book, it’s interesting. He talks some about dealing with Boras. Nothing emotionally revealing (you’ll never see that), but you do get a look at how the man thinks.

By Head Coach

October 25, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this

There goes shaun , jerking off at the mouth. according to your jughead analogy , why would the Yankees want the lineup they have ? I really dont like anything you have to say because you dont have a freaking clue , you pretend to know everything about nothing and are obviously just some young punk with a smarta.s.s mouth.

By rammerjammer

October 25, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this

DOB, any chance Boros is just engaging in some “saber rattling” while behind the scenes, he and JS are working on a long-term extension? He DOES have his reputation to think about.

I mean, you think about things AJ has said about home, family, etc. And then comes Boros to throw down the gauntlet. There’s a disconnect there.

I’m suspicious. If Boros is as brilliant as you say he is, he had a calculated, strategic reason for talking with you, other than just lording his advantage over JS.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

2007 Mets-You yourself stated that Omar Minaya would do whatever was necessary to get to the World Series next year. How the hell do you think he’s going to pick up a pitching staff and a replacement for Cliff Floyd? They are just going to volunteer to play for the ML minimum? No. He is going to throw money at them. Lots of money. Way more than almost anyone else in baseball has. Yes the Braves had payroll when Ted Turner was owner. He hasn’t BEEN owner for quite some time and the Braves payroll has been frozen at $80 million for several years. We may have been in the top ten in MLB last year, but stilll spent more than $10 million less than the Mets. The disparity next season will be considerably larger, especially if Minaya spends like you pray he will. Don’t try handing me a load of bovine excrement about what our payroll was 5 years ago. This isn’t spin. All you’re trying to do is stir up crap. Give it a rest. If the Mets win next year it will be because they bought what they needed to win.

By Jim

October 25, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this

If AJ loses 15 lbs (or 20?) and stays healthy, I think he will have a monster year next year. Especially since it is a contract year. After that, the question becomes more iffy — Can he stay at the reduced weight? Will he remain as focussed? I think next year could be Andruw’s peak offensive year. Defensively, he peaked 3-4 years ago (when he was probably the best there ever was at his position), since then he has lost a step or two and while still the best CF in the league(s), he has begun to decline, and this decline will accelerate if he plays at or above his current weight. His base running skills are already in steep decline.

With this in mind, I would still keep Andruw for next year. The team is still ready to compete for a playoff spot and beyond, but key players in that context are nearing the end of their useful careers (Smoltz, Chipper, Wickman, Hudson, Hampton), and with a fixed payroll the team slides deeper into the second tier each year. Without Andruw, we do not look like a playoff team next year — with him, we could very easily be considered to have a legitimate chance.

If you want to trade him for prospects (given our fixed payroll) you need to rebuild a la the Marlins and get rid of other high salaries so that you have a new core of young players available when (and if) the team becomes a legitimate contender again. And there is no guarantee that this will work and not lead to the pre-1990’s era again.

{I get the feeling this post-season that if the Braves had been able to get into the playoffs they would have a decent chance of doing quite well. Their lineup (with a healthy Chipper) is as good or better than any of the 8 except for the Yanks, their pitching would depend a great deal on how well Hudson fared as a third starter, how well Smoltz would be able to hold up, and how many pitchers we would have to use in the games that were winnable. I don’t think James would be intimidated by the playoff atmosphere. The 3 better teams went cold at the wrong time and the two remaining teams are only better than average. This year illustrates how much of a crapshoot the baseball playoffs can be — and how a flawed team like the Braves could end up winning the whole thing.)

By Lew

October 25, 2006 01:57 PM | Link to this

Head Coach-Read your 1:35 post and you can apply a good bit of it to yourself. Man, You’re really becoming an insufferable jerk. Have you noticed?

By 2007 Mets

October 25, 2006 02:22 PM | Link to this

Like I said, there were no complaints about money when Ted was around. It doesn’t matter if it was years ago or days ago. It still happened. You’re just trying to devalue the Mets success this year by crying about money. Baseball is designed this way and the Mets are playing by the rules. Besides everyone knows by now that money doesn’t equate to titles.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this

2007Mets-I’m not trying to devalue anything. The Mets won the division this year and the Braves did not play well. Everything I say about payroll is the absolute truth. The only thing I didn’t mention (or you either, for that matter), was the money the Mets spent in a futile manner for all of those years. The Mets had one of the highest payrolls during that time period, too. Do I need to remind you of the millions squandered on Mo Vaughan and jeromy Burnitz? The millions paid to Piazza, Cameron and others. Don’t even try playing the salary card. The fact remains that no matter how much either team spent, we left you breathing our dust for fifteen years until this year, when you outspent use by a minimum of $10 million. You will spend way more than that $10 mil over our salary next year, too. I’m not arguing salary, I’m pointing out facts. Oh yeah. “It doesn’t matter if it was years ago or days ago. It still happened”. The Mets spent as much as we did and have NOTHING to show for it. Except for that little meaningless (according to the Mets nation) division flag hanging ever so lonely on your wall, along with the other who has been so lonely for decades.

By Shaun

October 25, 2006 02:43 PM | Link to this

Head Coach,

Why so angry?

Yeah, it’s great to be loaded with superstars, but sometimes it just doesn’t make sense.

Go back to the early 1990’s:

You’ve already got Otis Nixon/Deion Sanders. Why would you want to give up talent or money for an over 30 Andy Van Slyke?

You’ve got Ron Gant and David Justice. Bonds is better, but why would you want to overpay for him when you’ve got two solid, relatively cheap options or when you have to give up talent for him? Maybe you’re refering to the Bonds for Andres Thomas rumor. But does anyone know if that was actually discussed?

You have Sid Bream, a young Brian Hunter…or later on Fred McGriff. You’ve got one of the top 1B prospects in baseball in Ryan Klesko. Why would you want to give up a ton of talent to get Frank Thomas?

During most of their run, it’s hard to imagine the Braves doing much more to increase their chances. And if they had tried to get more superstars, they would have had to give up a lot of talent.

Am I saying Schuerholz or Cox were perfect as GM’s? Of course not. But it’s not realistic to think that they could have grabbed even more superstars than the Braves had without giving up talent that helped them win already.

By 2007 Mets

October 25, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this

LEW, one more thing. The payroll doesn’t doesn’t have to get increased. Remember, some contracts are falling off. Floyd, Trachsel ect ect. so it is possible for their payroll to remain around where it was in 2006.

By Shaun

October 25, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this

Here’s a exerpt from an ESPN.com article written earlier this year about the 100 most valuable baseball players:

20. Andruw Jones, OF, Atlanta Braves (29)

Despite his breakout season last year, Jones is not the spry young athlete he used to be. It’s been five years since Andruw stole as many as 10 bases in a season, and he’s added significant weight to his 6-foot-1 frame. In short, he now profiles more like Jim Rice or Juan Gonzalez than Willie Mays or Ken Griffey Jr. He still should provide plenty of value to the Braves over the medium-term, especially since his fine center field defense always has been more the product of great instincts than blazing foot speed. But don’t be surprised if his batting average settles into the .250 range before long.

By 2007 Mets

October 25, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this

You’re the one who keeps bringing up salary. You’ve been doing that for a while now whether you care to admit it or not. I’m the first to agree that the Mets spent their share on money without results. But at least we were trying. However, the Mets were’t totaly impetant. They went to the playoffs in 1999 and were National League champs in 2000. Hopefully we continue to pay for the right players and improve our farm system to bring up more players like Wright and Reyes.

By Shaun

October 25, 2006 02:58 PM | Link to this

O’Brien,

If you are reading, do you know if there was any truth to the Andres Thomas-Barry Bonds rumors that we hear about every now and then? If so, do you know of the details and specifics?

By Lew

October 25, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this

2007 Mets-I think this will put the salary question to bed. The Mets have had a higher payroll than the Braves since 2001. It took six seasons of exceeding our payroll for the Mets to knock us off. in 01 the Mets outspent the Braves $93 mil to $91-in 02 they outspent use $94 mil to $93-03 they overspent us $116 mil to $104 mil. In 04 $100 mil to $88mil. In 05 $101 mil to $86 mil.In 06 $102 mil to $90 mil. Since the beginning of the 2001 season, the Mets have outspent the Braves by $54 million and have one division championship to show for it. It’s somewhat disingenuous for you to argue salary as the reason for the Braves success over the Mets. You’ve held the edge for almost half of our run.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this

2007 Mets-Actually you did bring up salary. The context I put it in was in regards to MLB spending in general with the New CBA increasing the luxury tax levels. You keep bringing up Ted Turner. And its impotent, by the way. And one whole division title and one wild card that led to a NL championship while outspending their main opponent. Sounds somewhat sickly to me. Now it should come as no surprise that I am not a Mets fan. You’re on a Braves’ site- What do you expect? Stinky-I wouldn’t ever make the mistake of thinking you valuable in any regard whatsoever. Just what have you got against BBQ anyway?

By 2007 Mets

October 25, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this

I NEVER said the braves have won because they spent more than the Mets so I’m not understanding your point. They had better managment and players….period. But it sounds like now that the Mets are winning you want an asterick by their record because of payroll. I beleive in capitalism. Basaball is no different from any other business. If you don’t have the funds to compete then you fold.

By 2007 Mets

October 25, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this

That makes two things you keep whinning about. Payroll and complaining about Met fans visiting this site. YOU don’t dictate who can and cannot visit here. I think it’s healthy to get another point of view. If not you end up taking yourself too seriously and get cranky. which you my friend seem to be suffering from. Lets just agree to disagree.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

2007 Mets-I think you’re another one of these multiple personalities. If you notice< i haven’t asked any of you to leave, have I? You don’t like what I have to say, then I will no longer respond to you. Doesn’t faze me at all. You are just looking to start a bunch of crap and I’ll no longer be a part of it. Rant on to your heart’s desire. As far as I’m concerned you no longer exist. BYE. You too Stinky. I couldn’t really care less what time of the month you may think it is or where you prefer your BBQ to originate from. Enjoy talking to yourselves.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this

Rammerjammer, it’s possible. Like all agents, everything they say, every call returned, is usually strategic. But he’s serious about going for $20 mill or more. That’s where the market might be for Andruw, because salaries are going to start going up now. Even the minimum is going from $327,000 to $380,000, the biggest jump in a long time.

It’s going to be across-the-board raises in free agency, etc. The Braves are going to have to raise payroll, if not in 2007 then certainly in 2008, just to be in the top half.

By the way, I’d expect the Mets’ payroll to climb to $110 mill or more next year. Just guessing, educated guess call it….

Not just North Carolina BBQ _ Eastern NC BBQ. Get it right, son. Best in the world.

And just so you know, Mr. Pleasant, since you’re absolutely obsessed with my life (that’s what makes me tingly, not Boras), I went to the DBTs show with about 7-8 other sports writers, mostly middle-aged, youngest probably about 25, oldest about 50 (or however old the veteran New York writer George King is).

But good post. Charming, as always.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 04:07 PM | Link to this

So the BBQ in THE joint is good, though? What else did you like about being in THE joint? Just curious, after perusing your post.

By Stinky

October 25, 2006 04:16 PM | Link to this

Lew, It would please you to think that everyone who opposes your point of you is the same person, but thats not the case. Aren’t you from one of those same gender marrying states? Not that there’s anything wrong with that, right DOB?

By Luke

October 25, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

Dave, I must say I love your blogs. I find them informative and excellent.

Your taste in music on the other hand… leaves much to be desired.

By geauxbraves2000

October 25, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

You want good food? Southern Louisiana, the best food in the business. Jambalaya, crawfish etouffee, oyster gumbo, oysters bienville…Man I miss that food.

Geaux Braves!!

By Lew

October 25, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

Stinky-I fail to see where I come from has anything to do with anything. I’m perfectly capable of handling opposing viewpoints. However, 2007 Mets has nothing in mind except to give grief and provoke a continuing argument that is nothing but a zero sum game. You are just a whiny little jacka$$. Always have been and always will. Why don’t you wirte a whiny little letter to the AJC people and tell them that I don’t like you. Do you think they would care? You are more than welcome to hold any opinion it suits you to hold. I promise it won’t affect my day in the least. Nor will your snide little innuendoes concerning my home and my sexual proclivities. It might matter if it were vaguely relevant to any conversation on this blog or if I ever felt it necessary to explain anything in my life to you. Take my word for this-It will never come to pass that I need or desire your approval for anything.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 04:49 PM | Link to this

GeauxBraves-Dude, it may seem to Stinky that I’m contentious and disagree with everyone. However, I sure agree with your opinion of good food. I loved NewOrleans and it’s cusine before the storm. Haven’t been there since, but I’m sure they’re eating well again. Jambalaya and a blackened sirloin works for me.

By Stinky

October 25, 2006 04:55 PM | Link to this

geauxbraves2000, I remember passing through Gross Tete, La. There was this toothless tiger at a truckstop that I felt sorry for. The boudin balls were pretty good, though. What’s a good place for real Cajun/Creole food outside of the New Orleans zone of destruction?

By Manilow

October 25, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this

Stinky is going to write a letter now! Whew! Do you really think she’s a whiner, Lew? Maybe she’s just a complainer. Stalking Ol’ DOB. Probably in the middle of that circle he talked about shrieking and hollering and waiting for some action.

By Scalp 'em Braves

October 25, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this

Dave - thanks for the insight on Andruw and Boras. I said back in the summer, when “Waiver Gate” was all the buzz, that Boras was going to hold the Braves hostage on free agency, and that the corporate bean counters calculators would explode from the demand. I don’t see him staying after next season.

On the BBQ issue, I respectfully disagree. The best BBQ anywhere is in the “Barbecue Triangle” of Memphis to Birmingham to Jackson. This includes the usual big names like Corky’s, Interstate, etc., and lesser known places like Dreamland, Full Moon, Jim n Nick’s, Big Bob Gibsons, etc.

By The Grinch

October 25, 2006 05:11 PM | Link to this

Howdy, all. Scalp ‘em, I like so many different kinds of BBQ I could’t say which one’s necc. my favorite, but I gotta agree I can’t think of any better than what I had in Memphis. MAN, that stuff was good. It’s also pretty hard to beat Beale st. on a Friday/Sat. night for ambience.

Lew, my ex could cook a pretty good blackened sirloin too. Just ask for it rare. :-)

By geauxbraves2000

October 25, 2006 05:13 PM | Link to this

Blink your eyes and you wouldn’t even know Grosse Tete even exists. :)

There’s a restaurant in Baton Rouge called Ralph & Kakoos, best cajun food ever.

There was a little restaurant in Calumet, the crawfish…I got to stop now.

I wonder if I could fine a cheap plane ticket, it’s almost supper time.

Geaux Braves!

By Lew

October 25, 2006 05:15 PM | Link to this

Stinky-Not that it’s relevant, or any of your business, you whiny little jerk, but I’ve been married to the same woman for almost 32 years. Does that clary the matter for you?

By paluka

October 25, 2006 05:15 PM | Link to this

Lets sat Andruw refuses to accept any trade, could JS force BC to sit AJ until he is frustrated enough to eccept the trade? I read on another site that the Dodgers my be interested in AJ. How about a trade for Matt Kemp or Andre Either and either Jonathon Broxton or Chad Billingsly?

By geauxbraves2000

October 25, 2006 05:26 PM | Link to this

How embarrasing, it should be Ralph & Kacoo’s.

Geaux Braves!!

By Lew

October 25, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this

Paluka-Sitting Andruw in that scenario would be atotal waste. You still have to pay him and you’re losing his production. That is a situation your parents used to refer to as cutting off your nose to spite your face. Kind of a pyrrhic victory at best.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 05:31 PM | Link to this

Dude, just logged back on in the pressbox and see you’re still carrying on. Where’s all the hate coming from, man? And what’s the obsessive talk about everyone’s sexuality and circle jerks and the joint and on and on. You’re the only one talking like that, just wondering what it is about that stuff that does it for you. We’re blogging about baseball and life here, man, no need for you to come in with all your hate and anger over god know’s what. But whatever floats your boat.

Yeah, it was a “circle jerk.” Geez, are you 16, 17? Come on, man. You’re better than that. Eight middle-aged sports writer going to a rock concert on an off day at the World Series becomes a “circle jerk”? Are you THAT unhappy in your own life, that you gotta slam everyone else totally unprovoked? Because this crap today, near as I can tell, was totally unprovoked. Some folks asked me what I thought about Boras. You don’t like the response, fine.

It’s called life, dude. Professional relationships and such. Maybe you don’t have any of that in the job that allows you to spill hate all day on the internet, but I do. And some people wanted to know about the guy.

You’re just a bad guy, aren’t you? And if so, that’s the worst thing to be, man. That’s sad.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 05:32 PM | Link to this

Great-Stinky at Happy Hour. A drunken whiny little jerk.

By geauxbraves2000

October 25, 2006 05:33 PM | Link to this

That’s impressive, Lew, 32 years. Who deserves the reward, you or the Mrs? :)

Just kidding, of course. I’ve been married 12 years, going on 13, and ever year gets better.

Okay, time for baseball. Let AJ kick butt this year, and if he demands $20M next year, as much as this pains me, let him walk. I sure hate to picture CF without AJ in it though. Oh well, that’s baseball.

Geaux Braves!!

By Lew

October 25, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this

GeauxBraves-I would have to give most of the credit to my wife, although it has, at times, been a two way street-just like in any relationship. Twelve years is a good start, Dude. Hang in there when the times get tough and you’ll do fine. Maybe that’s Stinky’s problem. Nobody loves him. Whiny Little Jerk.

By CC Rider

October 25, 2006 05:46 PM | Link to this

DOB, I for one disagree with the idea of keeping Andruw despite the fact we know he will walk at season’s end. Lew among others say we will get one last year out of him and some draft picks, that is a very poor return for a player nuturred in your system for 14 years. Draft picks are like lottery tickets, a low return on a lot a chances. Just look at all of the failed 1st round draft picks and the odds for a quality player goes down with each round. John S. should discuss the price with Boras and if he and Andruw ask for a figure beyond the Braves reach, then he should request permission to seek a trade to reams Andruw would consider playing for in the future. If they say NO, then the Braves should suggest they would play hardball as well. They should take the tack NFL teams have taken. They should tell Andruw they will start someone else in centerfield and let Andruw sit this season, thus hurting his chances of a absurd contract. YES, I can hear the crys from all that say that would kill the Braves chances but I disagree. They might lose a good bit of offensive production at that position, but with the proper moves and with the upgrade in the rotation and bullpen that will already take place, I feel they could still contend. there has to be some team in baseball to standup to players and their agents blackmailing tactics and why not the Braves being the first. I think if the threat were made, a list of teams might be quickly forthcoming. The Dodgers are just one team with the pieces to make this feasible. Andruw for Matt Kemp and either Scott Elbert or Greg Miller would get the Braves a young potential star outfielder and a potential #2 or #3 starter. I just feel the time is now for the middle and smaller market teams to take a stand over their homegrown players being constantly plucked by bigger market teams. WHY NOT THE BRAVES!

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 05:47 PM | Link to this

You guys will like this: In the interview room, Jim Leyland just cracked that Sean Casey’s “steal” sign would be if Leyland jumps up and never comes down.

Funny guy.

By journalist jimmy smith

October 25, 2006 05:49 PM | Link to this

journalist returns to find a stinky attack on this journalist. who cares where stinky likes to eat? talk about a nasty person … no matter which identity he’s using.

oh well, we were better off when we ignored stinky and wouldn’t blog with him. might be a good strategy again.

now, baseball … where is journalist bob to comment on the happenings of the world series?

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 05:55 PM | Link to this

Just wondering, anybody else getting the rather disturbing mental image I’m conjuring…

By Lew

October 25, 2006 05:57 PM | Link to this

I’m plenty secure in my sexuality, Stinky-apparently it’s you that has the sexual issues. No matter, you’re nothing but a whiny little jerk. Why are you so concerned with other’s sexuality, anyway? Can’t get a date?

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 05:58 PM | Link to this

… and by disturbing imagery, I don’t mean a Leyland jumping up and not coming down…

By Tyler

October 25, 2006 06:04 PM | Link to this

DOB, Will Atlanta’s payroll ever be in in the top three or four again? What exactly is the reason for the middle of the road payroll? Poor attendance? I don’t understand how our GM and Cox keep getting blamed when the payroll keeps getting cut. If the braves had kept the payroll the same as it was five years ago we would still be middle of the pack by today’s standards, but with the cuts that have been made it’s no wonder we eventually fizzled out. Now I know the Braves are better equipped than some other teams with similar payrolls due to their rich farm system…but do you think the Braves will get a bump in payroll anytime in the near future?

And do you think the Braves failure this year had anything to do with the M.C. Hammer song medley?

By Lew

October 25, 2006 06:10 PM | Link to this

CCRider-What you fail to understand is that we have received returns on Andruw’s time with the Braves-the numbers he put up for ten years. If he walks, we will still have the money we now pay him and we will find another centerfielder if and when the time comes. He doesn’t take his salary with him. He is not going to accept a trade and we are not going to bench him while paying him $13.5 million. I really fail to see any benefits in that. All we were offered for him at the trade deadline(when teams traditionally overpay for replacement partsa) was a rookie pitcher with dubious numbers and an outfielder who has never played more than 135 games and only played 110 games this past season. Why do you think teams will offer anything for him now? The team most mentioned as wanting Andruw is the Angels or the Red Sox. We already know that the Sox offer was absurd. Why do you think the Angels would give up two or three players so they could have him for one year before he asks for $20 million? They could just go out and buy Soriano or Carlos Lee on the free agent market and keep their players. Face it, trading Andruw is not going to bring the second coming of Roberto Clemente, Mickey Mantle, or Greg Maddux. Take his walk away season and then look for a new center fielder.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 06:17 PM | Link to this

Stinky-DOB’s superiors can’t force me to apologize to you. Go ahead and write a letter to the AJC that I’m mean to you. See if it makes any difference. You can even forward this to the AJC people. Stinky-I don’t like you. You’re a whiny little jerk with severe psychological issues that likely include your own gender identity. Does this clary the situation for you?

By The Grinch

October 25, 2006 06:26 PM | Link to this

Shaun, just caught up on posts. This is why I just can’t identify with you, man. It’s not that you’re a jerk; you’re one of the calmer and more considerate people on the blog. But to say that Andruw’s numbers aren’t as good as A-Rod’s, and the teams he left did ok afterwards so how could the Braves be losing their soul…That’s illustrating my point perfectly. All other things being relatively equal, nobody wants A-Rod. His numbers don’t make up for his lack of personality and back-breaking paycheck. He represents everything that’s wrong with the game now. You don’t ever hear a Texas or Seattle fan wish A-Rod was back; they probably chipped in on his bus tickets. Almost any fan anywhere would rather have Andruw, especially for the price difference. I’d pay him more than A-Rod if I had to and could just because his presence means more than his stat line. He’s a cool guy. He’s fun to watch. People like him. His defense and clutch hitting make up for his pedestrian average. Kids want to be like him. A-ROD HAS NO SOUL. HE’S ALL NUMBERS. Sound familiar? Man, do you photograph the toilet after every time you take a dump and compare weights and measurements? Keep a log log? My lord, man; I’m scared to invite you to a game ‘cause you might bust out the knife trick like Lance Hendrickson in “Alien.” Crack a cold one, pop some popcorn, and try enjoying the game for the sport of it. It’ll do you a world of good.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 06:39 PM | Link to this

Now Grinchy-I don’t agree with much Shaun espouses, either, but you are right-He’s not a whiny little jerk like Stinky or a Big Bombastic Jerk like Head Coach. At least he tries to take a logical approach to whatever the subject is, even if his conclusion isn’t always logical to most of us. However, he is never nasty, sarcastic or ironic, and I actually enjoy arguing with him. Not like other whiny little jerks we have encountered along the way.

By The Grinch

October 25, 2006 07:02 PM | Link to this

So Lew. How do you feel about Stinky? :-)

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 07:18 PM | Link to this

Well, there’ll be no middle-aged circle jerks at the DBTs show tonight. They’re gonna try to play this game, and almost certainly are going to be play it, even if it gets muddy as hell. Their reason being, the forecast is even worse the next two nights, so they don’t want to risk having back-to-back rainouts in St. Louis and pushing everything into next week.

So, get ready for more no-hitting ball tonight from St. Louie. It’s really, really nasty, about 38 degrees, light rain that’ll probably be sleet soon enough.

By ncscoots

October 25, 2006 07:22 PM | Link to this

Grinch, I’m afraid you tone is just a wee bit condescending, my friend. I don’t often agree with Shaun, but from his perspective, he has to read through a lot of posts HE doesn’t agree with, either. I don’t know if he pops a cold one watching the game or not, and, sorry, but neither do you. You don’t agree with the guy? Fine. He doesn’t agree with you, either, but I don’t see him taking potshots as you do. I usually enjoy what posts of yours I read, but that one was out of line. So reel in your self-importance a little, eh?

Now, baseball…if AJ leaves in 08, so be it. It won’t be the first time a player has left the Braves and the Nation howled over the team’s imminent demise. We don’t even know what young horse will suddenly appear in 07, let alone in 08. But I have no doubt that the Braves will find another McCann, or Francoeur, or LaRoche, as needed. Heck, Scott Thorman could start next year and hit 35 dingers, for all I know. Bottom line is that losing AJ won’t be the end of baseball as we know it. I love the guy, but 20 mil? Not hardly.

By CC Rider

October 25, 2006 07:28 PM | Link to this

Lew, I understand your benvolent attitude toward all the good Andruw has done for the Braves, I truly do. At the same time, the Braves have treated Andruw quite well and particularly in his younger years when a lesser team would have critized him for his hard headed approach to hitting and his lackadaisial attitude on running out groundouts. Andruw admits being overweight and has promised to lose 15 pounds this off season. You will notice that this promise is just now coming in his walk year, where was this dedication before? I too appreciate his contributions, but I think teams have for too long allowed agents to dictate players options, rather than fairly working with the team that drafted, developed and often had the patience to help the player succeed. Yes, the Braves would get the $13.5 million to work with the following year, but wouldn’t it be better to trade Andruw if you could get back one or two players with the potential to become productive regulars or maybe better, as well as the $13.5 to fill other needs. The Braves deserve to benefit from what they have done for Andruw as well, don’t you think.

By JJMB

October 25, 2006 07:41 PM | Link to this

Hey Dave, I caught some of your interview on 680 this afternoon. Nice job, good voice. Now, if you could replace that carpetbagger Kincaid…. I could see you and Buck doing a southern sports show.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 07:43 PM | Link to this

Stinky-I assure you that it thrills me to no end that you agree with me. Really it does. Sincerely. But you’re still a whiny little jerk. I personally don’ t even care what DOB said about you. You deserved it, no matter how many whiny letters you write to authority figures. You’re mean, nasty, and all around just unlikeable-which probably sums up why you have so many hang ups. Nobody loves you. Try writing a whiny letter making someone be your friend. You’ve criticized me from day one, given others on this blog a hard time and have been rude and condescending to JJS, DOB and damn near everyone else you’ve had oppurtunity to mock. You’ve called into question my sexual orientation and cast aspersians on the beautiful state where I reside. I don’t like you. I don’t care that you know I don’t like you. I think you’re a whiny little jerk and I don’t care if you agree with me or not. On any subject.

By Lew

October 25, 2006 07:52 PM | Link to this

CC Rider-I didn’t want to answer you in the middle of my Stinky castigation. You ask reasonable questions that deserve their own answer. I’m not really benevolent towards Andruw’s departure. I would prefer that Andruw sign a lifetime contract with the Braves so we couldhave the benefit of his entire career. However-It doesn’t look like this will be the case. If we were offered an equitable package of GOOD players for Andruw, it MIGHT be worthwhile. The problem is that I don’t believe we will be offered an equitable package. We haven’t been up to this point and there are too many reasons why we won’t. He’s only under contract for one season. He will (apparently) be hugely expensive to resign. He can reject any trade and (apparently will do so). There is no way to force him to accept a trade. People can fill their needs through free agency without giving up anyone in return. All of these reasons point to the fact that he will not be traded. Add to this that JS wants to return to the post season. Would this be better achieved with Andruw putting up the kind of numbers that players traditionally put up in their walk years, or with a rookie pitcher with an ERA of over 6 and an outfielder who missed 60 games last year and can’t hit RHP( Coco Crisp)? This is what the Red Sox offered at the trade deadline. I’m not being benevolent. This is just the way the situation shapes up.

By The Grinch

October 25, 2006 08:10 PM | Link to this

Scoots, what you say is usually sound (and it may be technically in this case), but let’s not go calling the kettle black about condecention and pot-shots. I’m nicer to Shaun in general than almost anyone else here usually, and when I say what I say it’s partially in jest but also it’s what I think (and if pot-shots really bothered him he would’ve logged off long ago from some of the things many others have said to him here; he “wades through posts he disagrees with” for the purpose of pasting those comments back and arguing them about 15-20 times a day). If Shaun doesn’t like what I said than he can tell me so. I don’t sit here and hide; everyone knows when I’m here and how to find me. He’s a big boy and so am I, and and I expect if we needed moral police we’d ask for them. Toss your opinion in whenever you please, but I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t judge me as if you were speaking for everyone. If he pops up and gives you a big thank you for protecting him, I’ll be the first to apologize to you both.

By Carolina Lady

October 25, 2006 08:18 PM | Link to this

Would y’all please just ignore Stinky?? A person can’t argue unless he has someone to argue WITH. He is demanding attention and gets it when his taunts and insults are responded to. Why not quit “feeding” him?? If he can’t get satisfaction here, he’ll eventually go where he can. Please??

By The Grinch

October 25, 2006 08:40 PM | Link to this

Obliged, Stinky. I’m in the process of reading Frazier’s (Charles, not that fool K. Grammer) new book: “13 Moons.” It’s ok, but not “great” so far. It’s like he had this huge, sweeping idea for a book he ought to spend about 20 years writing, then realized it’s the second of a three-book contract and he needed to go ahead and turn something in to the publisher. I took a copy of “Cold Mountain” to a writer’s conference in Chattanooga a few years back and got him to sign it. He’s quite unlikeable in person. And just because I threw all that out doesn’t mean we’re going to be swapping spit in the shower. :-)

By The Grinch

October 25, 2006 08:54 PM | Link to this

What in the world? Stinky’s comments from the last few hours just got erased! Now, I don’t like the guy, but that sort of smacks of the patriot act. Oh, well. Couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy, huh? :-)

By Stinky

October 25, 2006 09:04 PM | Link to this

For those of you who missed it, here it is again. But in a more politically correct fashion for DOB and the Draconians:

Dob, if you checked a little more closely, you’d see that most of those 150 posters are people who don’t normally post here. So feel slighted. (Nothing here Mr. Censor)

And I know Boras is rolling in green, but don’t get all mushy. It’s all icky when you do that. You’re a journalist, for goodness’s sakes. You’re supposed to be detached, not star-struck.(Nothing there, Mr. Censor, and remeber, free speech advocates will be reading this.)

And all this talk about BBQ from you. Well let me tell you something, North Carolina BOY, if I had cousin in prison and a cousin in North Carolina, I’d bust the one out of North Carolina first because the BBQ in THE Joint is much better than anything you’ll find in North Carolina. (Apologies to Charles Frazier). (Again, Whats wrong with that, except if you’re from North Carolina and don’t know how to conjure a proper sauce.)

And let me thank you for inviting me back to the blog. I apologize for not having contributed that much in a while, but I promise to show up more frequently now that I know you consider me such a valued friend. (No politically sensitive issues there.)

And as a friend, I have a little advice. When you go to that upcoming 25th high school reunion, and find a group of people standing together with their wallets out, showing pictures of their kids, don’t whip out your CD wallet and show ‘em your DBT and Hank III CD’s. They won’t be nearly as impressed as those 18 year olds you meet at concerts. (I believe this paragraph was cleaned up appropriately - 18 is a legal, albeit impressionable age, and no other issues are raised.)

Oh, by the by, that apology you issued to me. I’m beginning to think maybe it wasn’t completely sincere. That e-mail you sent me sort of made me feel that you did it on your own, but now I’m thinking that maybe you were coerced by the people who run this blog. (Really, there can be nothing in here that is questionable on sensitivty issue.)

I’m sorry if a whiney letter led you to do something you didn’t want to do. I hate that you had to compromise yourself because your superiors felt you had crossed the line.

Oh, well. See you in the funny papers. (As usual.)

So, the AJC has no grounds to censor this post. Except that maybe the IT department is scrambling now to see what else has been said by DOB and others over the last few months and whether or not, upon closer inspection, they might not meet the scrutiny that some other posts have recieved.

Dave, what are you doing, Dave… Good morning Dr. Chandra…Mary had little lamb…

By 2007 Mets

October 25, 2006 09:06 PM | Link to this

Lew, I wasn’t trying to be difficult earlier today. I guess my issue boiled down to this. Everytime you talked about the Mets current or future success there was always an attachment to payroll. And that was the only reason the Mets Won and the braves lost. Your earlier post said the Mets would “buy” into a world series in 2007. As if it were a lesser accomplishment. Anyway that was my point and it morphed into all sort of other bullcrap I never intended.

By Carolina Lady

October 25, 2006 09:08 PM | Link to this

Hallelujah!!

By Stinky

October 25, 2006 09:09 PM | Link to this

Grinch, that’s good to know. I liked Cold Mountain, but it, too, was an incongrous read at times. Still, there were some memorable moments. And, don’t take this the wrong way, but, I don’t wish to swap spit with you either.

By Stinky

October 25, 2006 09:20 PM | Link to this

For those of you who missed it, here it is again. But in a more politically correct fashion for DOB and the Draconians:

Dob, if you checked a little more closely, you’d see that most of those 150 posters are people who don’t normally post here. So feel slighted. (Nothing here Mr. Censor)

And I know Boras is rolling in green, but don’t get all mushy. It’s all icky when you do that. You’re a journalist, for goodness’s sakes. You’re supposed to be detached, not star-struck.(Nothing there, Mr. Censor, and remeber, free speech advocates will be reading this.)

And all this talk about BBQ from you. Well let me tell you something, North Carolina BOY, if I had cousin in prison and a cousin in North Carolina, I’d bust the one out of North Carolina first because the BBQ in THE Joint is much better than anything you’ll find in North Carolina. (Apologies to Charles Frazier). (Again, Whats wrong with that, except if you’re from North Carolina and don’t know how to conjure a proper sauce.)

And let me thank you for inviting me back to the blog. I apologize for not having contributed that much in a while, but I promise to show up more frequently now that I know you consider me such a valued friend. (No politically sensitive issues there.)

And as a friend, I have a little advice. When you go to that upcoming 25th high school reunion, and find a group of people standing together with their wallets out, showing pictures of their kids, don’t whip out your CD wallet and show ‘em your DBT and Hank III CD’s. They won’t be nearly as impressed as those 18 year olds you meet at concerts. (I believe this paragraph was cleaned up appropriately - 18 is a legal, albeit impressionable age, and no other issues are raised.)

Oh, by the by, that apology you issued to me. I’m beginning to think maybe it wasn’t completely sincere. That e-mail you sent me sort of made me feel that you did it on your own, but now I’m thinking that maybe you were coerced by the people who run this blog. (Really, there can be nothing in here that is questionable on sensitivty issue.)

I’m sorry if a whiney letter led you to do something you didn’t want to do. I hate that you had to compromise yourself because your superiors felt you had crossed the line.

Oh, well. See you in the funny papers. (As usual.)

So, the AJC has no grounds to censor this post. Except that maybe the IT department is scrambling now to see what else has been said by DOB and others over the last few months and whether or not, upon closer inspection, they might not meet the scrutiny that some other posts have recieved.

Dave, what are you doing, Dave… Good morning Dr. Chandra…Mary had little lamb…

By Stinky

October 25, 2006 09:29 PM | Link to this

Hallelujah!!

By The Grinch

October 25, 2006 09:34 PM | Link to this

Then we agree to agree. Another one I’m in the process of reading (I usually have several open to different places in different parts of the house) is Cormac McCarthy’s newest: “The Road.” It’s a post-apocalyptic novel about father and son travelling the wastelands in search of… His prose is unique, and I appreciate originality in this disgustingly cookie-cutter world. I highly recommend it (from what I’ve read so far) as well as most of his other work. Don’t judge “All the Pretty Horses” (or the other two books of the Border Trilogy) by the movie. Though it had it’s moments, it appeared to be edited with a cuisinart and Matt Damon looked more like a greeter at a dude ranch than the hard-a* cowboy it called for. Penelope Cruz was wasted. Anyhoo, I’m rambling….Now, baseball. The Braves need a financial savior to sign Andruw to a lifetime contract.

By brian

October 25, 2006 09:46 PM | Link to this

Andruw is as good as gone. I disagree with DOB for once when he says that Andruw is untradeable now. JS may not get everything he wants but one of the big market teams will want him, even taking the chance he may walk after 1 year. The Angels are ready to spend big money and Chone Figgins plus one of their top young pitchers (maybe even another prospect) will make sense for both teams and for Andruw. Boston still would deal for him if the Braves took Crisp, Hansen, plus another pitching prospect. You can never rule out the Yankees - Giles and Andruw for Cano and Phillip Hughes. Texas will be in need for a CF though I am not sure of their prospects.

I just see Boston and the Angels salivating at the opportunity to land Andruw and each have the resources to sign him to a long term deal. And whenever Boston is hot on the trail of a top notch free agent, Steinbrenner cannot help himself. They could each help us with our leadoff situation and give us a top young pitcher in return.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 09:51 PM | Link to this

Grinch, you gotta tell me which of McCarthy’s books to read next. The only one I’ve read is “No Country for Old Men” and it was terrific. I’ve heard the newest one is quite different than his usual, so I’d rather get one of the others in that genre like No Country. Which one?…

Weather here’s terrible and game could get called at any time, though they’re still crossing fingers and hoping to start it. I don’t see how….

By Stinky

October 25, 2006 09:54 PM | Link to this

I usually don’t bother with Matt Damon movies. You’re right. He doesn’t seem to have the iron of Cole. I listened to All The Pretty Horseson CD a while back. I’ll have to read it the next time, and finsih the trilogy. My wife’s a big Wilbur Smith fan. I’ll try him soon. Right now I’m in the middle of Robert Parker and Suart Woods. Not very high brow, but what would you expect from Stinky?

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 09:56 PM | Link to this

Of course they’re going to wait around and wait around and then bang this game only after the DBTs have already taken the stage… Damn you baseball officials!

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 10:02 PM | Link to this

Brian, why would the Angels trade Chone Figgins AND one of their top young pitchers for Andruw, when they can wait and sign him a year from now when he’s a free agent? In effect you’re saying give up Figgins and one of their top young pitchers for one season out of Andruw, since either way they’ll have to give him a huge contract a year from now.

Not saying it can’t happen, just saying that a couple of agents I’ve talked to suggest the Braves probably aren’t going to get premier talent for Andruw now that he’s entering his final year before free agency. I mean, the Red Sox didn’t even consider meeting the demands of Lester-Crisp-Garland, and that was when they still had a hope of making the playoffs.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 10:05 PM | Link to this

Brian, I doubt Andruw would even approve a trade to Boston, as much as he hates playing in cold weather. Seriously. He can’t stand it.

By Stinky

October 25, 2006 10:08 PM | Link to this

Poor DOB, Work gets in the way of trolling for whatever. Do the censors follow you around with their hands near your ears, so that anything others might say won’t offend you?

By Stinky

October 25, 2006 10:17 PM | Link to this

Hey, DOB. This whiney enough for you? Should I expect you to censor this, too?

By The Grinch

October 25, 2006 10:19 PM | Link to this

DOB, I haven’t read “Old Men.” I’ll check it out. The new one is quite different to be sure, and I wouldn’t recommend it starting off. If you’re into Southern novels, check out “The Orchard Keeper, Outer Dark and Child of God.” I can’t heartily recommend Suttree; it may be great but I just couldn’t get into it. He’s one of those authors that’s just sometimes simply over your head. Blood Meridian is absolutely fantastic, and if you haven’t read that yet I’d say check it out first. It’s a bloodthirsty sort of southwestern novel that may be his best (in my humble opinion), but not for everyone. The Border Trilogy (All the Pretty Horses, The Crossing, and Cities of the Plain) is excellent if you like Westerns. Not Zane Grey or Louis L’Amour westerns, but the cold, dark, bleak, hungry Westerns that probably really existed. He gets you into one character in the first, another in the second, and has them meet in the third. It’s sublime writing in its starkness, pain, humor and realism. It can take a while to get into, but it’s well worth it in the end. You’ll know, and be the richer for it. Same for you, Stinky. Which “Cole” are you referring to?

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 10:25 PM | Link to this

Game postponed. What a postseason.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 10:28 PM | Link to this

Blood Meridien, that’s the one I’ve heard so much about. I’m gonna get that one.

You will love “No Country For Old Men.” Blood as all hell, and the most sinister bad-guy character. They’re already making it into a movie.

By Stinky

October 25, 2006 10:28 PM | Link to this

Wasn’t Cole the name of the guy who lit out on his horse down to Mexico? I didn’t see the movie and its been a while since I listened to it. I’m assuming I got the first one in the trilogy, but like I said, its been a while.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 10:29 PM | Link to this

Meant to say, “bloody as hell,” not blood. Trying to type while waiting for managers to come to the interview room.

By The Grinch

October 25, 2006 10:32 PM | Link to this

Never mind, Stinky; it just occured to me who you meant…my bad.

By The Grinch

October 25, 2006 10:51 PM | Link to this

I’ll check it out, DOB; thanks. You’re all right for a journalist. :-)

By brian

October 25, 2006 11:08 PM | Link to this

but the Red Sox would have done it if Hansen was the pitcher and not Lester.

The main reason any team would do it is if the Braves granted them a window to negotiate an extension with Andruw. The pressure is to win now so if they can get him now, especially with an extension - better now than when he hits the free agent market.

I think Chone Figgins is seen as expendible with all their up and coming prospects as far as infield goes, and with Andruw taking over in center they would consider it. The Angels have almost traded Ervin Santana at least once (for Tejada). Andruw would upgrade their defense tremendously and there would be a lot of big swings with Vlad and Andruw back to back. The Braves would have to consider a Figgins/Santana for Andruw Jones deal, and the Angels are looking for another All-Star bat in their lineup.

Sorry, I know I live in my dream world sometime, but I do not think Andruw’s value has sunk to Murphy’s in 1990. I know you did not say that but I think AJs value is higher than word on the street is now and also less than what JS would want it to be. I just do not know why Boras would come out publically and state his huge contract demands which does hurt his clients trade value (unless he wants to make Jones untradeable this offseason which screws the Braves)

I will try and keep my fantasy world GM deals to myself - unfortunately I cannot help myself sometimes - sorry (like AJ and Giles to the Yankees, AROD to the Cubs, Aramis Ramirez to the Yankees, with Cano, Hughes and prospects to the Braves)

I have agreed with DOB all year and barely get mentioned. Disagree one time and……….

And yes, there is nothing like Carolina BBQ - Eastern is the best, but I love vinegar cole slaw. Cannot beat it.

By The Grinch

October 25, 2006 11:20 PM | Link to this

Stinky, I hadn’t read the first one since about ‘99; I was thinking of you comparing actors to each other for some reason. McCarthy is an individual, no matter how you slice it. He doesn’t bother with punctuation (he says quotation marks interfere with the flow of a sentence). He’s often compared to a modern Faulkner or Hemmingway, but I think he’s got his own voice. Another who fits that bill is Howard Bahr. He was the curator of Faulkner’s estate for about 15 years and teaches English lit at a rather obscure college in Tennessee. His three Civil War novels (Black Flower, Day of Jubilo and The Judas Field) are among the best Civil War novels ever written. Investigate them, by all means.

By David O'Brien

October 25, 2006 11:27 PM | Link to this

Brian, Boras would prefer he not get traded because he knows how comfortable Andruw is playing for the Braves and Cox, living at home, etc, and he’s more likely to put up huge numbers in his free-agent walk year with them than he would be in a lot of places, particularly if he tried to change leagues. Andruw _ some might find this hard to believe _ studies pitchers more than most Braves and takes his laptop on the road to view DVDs of opposing pitchers at his locker and elsewhere. He really does study them closely and helps out the young guys a lot with tips, etc. I know it might not look like it sometimes when he’s flailing at pitches, but…

Anyway, I doubt he’d want to change leagues in his walk year and face a lot of pitchers he’s never seen.

By The Grinch

October 25, 2006 11:46 PM | Link to this

DOB, Andruw ain’t goin’ anywhere, I hope. The least we can do is give him a going away party in his last season. You da man, ‘Druw.

Stinky, just Googled the three authors you mentioned. They all sound worthy; I’m a big fan of Hammett, Flemming, Spillane and especially Bradbury. He was the absolute master of the simile. This points to you and SJA not being the same dude. I guess. Doesn’t matter. You’re both d-bags, but have above-average intelligence and reasonably good taste. I think. Can’t Y’all settle on a specific monniker so I can make a sweeping and comprehensive value judgement like ncscoots? :-)

By brian

October 25, 2006 11:49 PM | Link to this

I would prefer Andruw not go anywhere, but Boras is really forcing the Braves hand and it is frustrating. Boras is so good because he is so aggressive - goes for broke and does not take less ever. Why I am not an agent - I would take $15 million -$17 million per year as an extension this offseason rather than have a contract year and possibly get injured while going for the career year and $20-$25 million per year. But then again I can’t imagine making $1 million/year- much less $15-25 million per year.

Good posts above - glad our society has our priorities straight. Doctors are “overpaid” when primary care doctors generally make $100-200,000/year, teachers/police/firefighters are lucky to make $50,000/year, and baseball players are disrespected when offered $7 mill (T.O) or $9 mill (Tommy G) per year. Andruw underpaid at $13 million - must be nice

By brian

October 25, 2006 11:51 PM | Link to this

and DOB - thanks for keeping this post going. All you have to do is look at posts on your days off and see how many people are asking for you or still asking your opinions to see how much we appreciate your work here

By The Grinch

October 26, 2006 12:07 AM | Link to this

Brian, a voice of reason is always appreciated. What ever happened to ol’ VOR, anyway? BTW, Scoots, I was just messin’ with you on the last post. Let’s all be friends.

By Stinky

October 26, 2006 12:25 AM | Link to this

Grinch, My favorite War of Northern Aggression novel is The Guns of the South. It poses the rhetorical question: What if the south had AK-47s? It involves time travel, but its not really science fiction. Harry Turtledove, the author, I think is a PHD historian guy, so it may have been authentic with respect to the 1860’s. I can’t attest to that, though. Anyway, it ended differently than most Civil War books, to say the least. It was utter nonsense, but it had the virtue of being original.

By The Grinch

October 26, 2006 12:41 AM | Link to this

Journalist Jimmy Smith: I just read a post-rainout article on ESPN that said many of the Cardinal players were playing cards and Backgammon in the dugout during the rain delay. Can you scoop us on whether Old Maid was involved? Did, uh, they need a spokesman?

By Head Coach

October 26, 2006 12:42 AM | Link to this

Dont be suprised if Alfonso Soriano ends up in an Angels uniform. The Braves can pay 20 million a season for Andruw and yes Ive already explained how , so dont ask.

By Stinky

October 26, 2006 12:47 AM | Link to this

a lack of punctuation appeals to me also

By Head Coach

October 26, 2006 12:54 AM | Link to this

Why is no one talking about the transformation of Jeff Weaver ? Dave Duncan is an awesome pitching coach and he has turned Weaver back into an effective pitcher much like Leo used to do with veteran pitchers when he was in Atlanta. by the way , had Leo stayed the Braves would have made the playoffs and no I’m not knocking Roger Mcdowell. I’m just pointing out the poor decision’s concerning the pitching that Cox made without Leo around.

By The Grinch

October 26, 2006 12:55 AM | Link to this

Original nonsense is better than unoriginal fawning. And I favor your calling the “conflict” as it was; my history teachers always sighed when I insisted on referring to it as such. However, it was so. Come in here talkin’ your trash/imposing your limits and act like it was our fault…don’t even get me started. Anyhoo, once again I don’t know the story but if it was read in its entirety on NPR (yes, I googled it) it can’t be a bad thing, and the premise suits me fine (I defend my home with an SKS which is essentially an AK-47 with a fixed clip instead of detatchable). I have often thought the South could’ve used a an assault rifle or two (valor was never questioned). Gotta hit the sack. Night, all.

By Stinky

October 26, 2006 01:13 AM | Link to this

someone who owns an sks and listens to npr. what is the world coming to?

By brian r

October 26, 2006 01:31 AM | Link to this

DOB, what have you heard about what Ken Rosenthal reported about the Braves being interested in the LH Japanese pitcher?

By Head Coach

October 26, 2006 05:02 AM | Link to this

Brian , I think you are referring to Kei Igawa a 27 year old southpaw with the Hanshin Tigers. Its just a rumor that the Braves , Mets , Dodgers , Mariners and Tigers are interested. He has to first be posted(put up for bid)by the Japanese team offering his services. Igawa is rumored to start at 10 million a season , but its just a rumor until after the Japanese world series is concluded and the Hanshin Tigers make a decision concerning his rights.

By Bravo Nam

October 26, 2006 05:15 AM | Link to this

Lots of interesting posts on AJ.

CC Rider You gave expression to how a lot of us feel about the seemingly powerless position the Braves are in over Andruw. And I understand your arguments about playing hard ball. But the reality is that the Braves are not going to bench Andruw coz he makes too much money; they’d be a laughing stock; they have too much respect and affection for him; and, it would create great discord amongst the team. Nevertheless, it’s a fun fantasy- one I’d love to see another team do- just not the Braves in this situation, coz it would be too destructive.

DOB Yeah, good points about why the Braves are unlikely to get much in return for him. And I hear what you and other bloggers are saying about Boras/Jones being pretty adamant about him staying in 2007. But you know, if I was JS, I wouldn’t just close the book and accept the current state of affairs. I would be quietly seeing what I could get for him out there. There’s certainly no harm trying…and the results could be surprising. If JS doesn’t get an offer worth considering, then nothing needs to be said to Andruw, and he plays 2007. But, if JS strikes a good deal, I’d be putting a little heat on Andruw. I’d be talking about all the benefits of him remaining a Brave and signing early- it’s unlikely, of course- and if he balks, then seeing how genuine he was about his comment a few weeks back about not wanting to be with a team who didn’t want him. If I know he’s not coming back and have a good deal on the table, I’m gonna call him on his comment a few weeks back. It would be interesting to see what Andruw would do with some heat placed on him.

* The Greed Factor* Lots and lots of comments on Boras, greed etc. Andruw’s previous behaviour at least deserves some kudos in highlighting that Andruw isn’t all about money. And this is a completely subjective point, but I feel AJ is less obsessed about money than the average baseball player.

Nevertheless, let’s not kid ourselves- greed is still involved here, sadly so. Whether we like to admit it to ourselves or not, Andruw’s decision this time to hand the reins over to Boras ultimately is about greed- and as Carolina Lady and others suggest- money over happiness. If someone was to offer me this deal- to play baseball for a living, to play under a Manager I adore, to play in a city I love and who loves me, to play in a city that has weather I dig, to play for a team I grew up with and team-mates who I like and who like me, and to receive $15 million a year doing all of this- are you kidding me?

Andruw can choose this and remain loyal or he can choose this- to play baseball for a living, to play under a Manager he may or may not like, to play in a city he may not like, to play in a city that has weather he may not like, to receive $20 million a year doing all of this, and be disloyal-while feeling somewhat like a fish out of water.

It really is a choice of money over happiness. It really is a choice that relates ultimately to greed. Shaun wrote earlier: “Players and owners are greedy, but not anymore than the rest of us.” Hmmm, I know what you’re saying, that innately we’re all greedy- but that’s not true. Many, many people make choices every day to forego extra money for happiness or to forsake money for higher goals. In addition, the average person is earning maybe $30,000-$40,000 a year- you can’t compare this to someone earning millions. At what point is enough…enough? It’s frightening in some ways how healthy baseball is financially- coz things are only going to get more ridiculous.

As geauxbraves2000 wrote earlier, Andruw, not Boras, has the final say- if I’m my own man and have a bit of integrity about me, I sack Boras and tell him there is a new sheriff in town! Yeah, you can go for the 20 mill Andruw, and you might even get it- but at what price?

Do the Braves offer Andruw 18-20 mill? No way. Not only would this place them in a perilous position in terms of improving the roster, but Andruw, while a reasonably young and still awesome player, has peaked. There are question marks around his durability and state of health. The last thing the Braves want is another Chipper on their hands- AJ won’t get any better, so why pay him so much more than he is getting now, just coz the market dictates it? And of course, what happens if he gets injured?

Injury Apart from the incentives listed above for Andruw to sacrifice a pay increase, there is a very important wild card here. Injury. We’re all assuming AJ will do his best this year to put up monster numbers, but what happens if he gets injured? What happens if he has a career ending injury? If I’m Andruw, I shove the greed and do a Chipper. I go to the Braves and get a contract at $15-16 million, guaranteed. Apart from the incentives to stay with the Braves, surely the peace of mind of a guaranteed contract outweighs the potential of an extra 5 mill or the pressure of having to perform in a contract year, for someone with Andruw’s personality.

By Head Coach

October 26, 2006 06:14 AM | Link to this

Peaked at 29 ? are you kidding me ? And yes the Braves can afford 20 million. Its only money vs. a hall of fame gold glove 35-40 HR 100-120 RBI a season centerfielder. You guys are hilarious , peaked at 29 !!!! if thats the case then Smoltz should be dead and buried at 39 but no sir , Smoltz is still bringing it at 39 , Franco is approaching 50 and still playing , Clemens is 44 and pitching , Randy Johnson is 43 and pitching. Peaked at 29 , what a silly thing to say. Andruws best years are still ahead of him. Yes the Braves can pay 20 million a season and still have a competitive team , it just takes imagination , intelligence and a good insurance policy. Lock him up with a 3-5 year contract and count your blessings to be a Braves fan who can say they saw a Hall of Famer in the mold of Willie Mays play everyday.

By Shaun

October 26, 2006 07:59 AM | Link to this

“Players and owners are greedy, but not anymore than the rest of us.” Hmmm, I know what you’re saying, that innately we’re all greedy- but that’s not true. Many, many people make choices every day to forego extra money for happiness or to forsake money for higher goals. In addition, the average person is earning maybe $30,000-$40,000 a year- you can’t compare this to someone earning millions. At what point is enough…enough? It’s frightening in some ways how healthy baseball is financially- coz things are only going to get more ridiculous.

Many people do forego money for happiness or higher goals but only to a degree. Many give up money for their own happiness or their own selfish desires. A lot fewer give up everything but necessity for a higher good.

I agree with you, the owners and players are greedy. But, baseball has always survived greed. Believe me, if the owners couldn’t afford to pay these huge contracts, they wouldn’t.

For better or worse, our country’s ecomomic system is set up so that you get paid what people are willing to pay you and not for your value to society or some higher good. Athletes make more than teachers, cops, etc. because millions of people a year are willing to pay $20-$40 minimum to watch them play. No one is willing to watch teachers and cops for that much.

Things have always gotten “more rediculous” in baseball. I’ve read articles from the late 1800’s and early 1900’s about how professionalism is going to ruin baseball.

By Shaun

October 26, 2006 08:12 AM | Link to this

The Grinch,

Teams don’t want ARod for one reason—his salary. If not for that, there’s not a team in baseball that wouldn’t take ARod. Same with Andruw Jones, but ARod’s a much better player by pretty much any objective measure.

As good as ARod is, Seattle and Texas got better after he left. So losing Andruw Jones doesn’t necessarily mean the demise of the Braves.

By Shaun

October 26, 2006 08:44 AM | Link to this

Peaked at 29 ? are you kidding me ? And yes the Braves can afford 20 million. Its only money vs. a hall of fame gold glove 35-40 HR 100-120 RBI a season centerfielder. You guys are hilarious , peaked at 29 !!!! if thats the case then Smoltz should be dead and buried at 39 but no sir , Smoltz is still bringing it at 39 , Franco is approaching 50 and still playing , Clemens is 44 and pitching , Randy Johnson is 43 and pitching. Peaked at 29 , what a silly thing to say. Andruws best years are still ahead of him.

Players generally peak in their late 20’s. If not, it’s usually because of playing time or injury or some outside factor that has nothing to do with ability. And just because there are a lot of players who play into their 40’s and a few that play into their 50’s that doesn’t necessarily mean their peak years were later. Some players are so good in their peak years that they are still awesome when they have declined. And a few players may actually peak later than most, but again, it’s usually not because they have more ability in their 30’s than in their 20’s.

Andruw Jones’s best seasons were at age 23, 25, 26 and 29. He’s likely to remain productive, but he’s not likely to get better; he is, however, going to get more expensive. Andruw’s best years are most likely behind him. To say that the Braves would get the same Andruw Jones in 2008 and beyond that they had in the late ‘90’s-mid 2000’s is to assume that he’ll never age.

If you checked out the link I posted the other day, you’ll see what Andruw is likely to do in the near future. Mr. Nate Silver uses a number of factors to project a players future performance. In this article he ranks the top 100 players (if every player were to become a free agent tomorrow):

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=silver/060418_2

Here’s what Mr. Silver has to say about AJ:

Despite his breakout season last year (2005), Jones is not the spry young athlete he used to be. It’s been five years since Andruw stole as many as 10 bases in a season, and he’s added significant weight to his 6-foot-1 frame. In short, he now profiles more like Jim Rice or Juan Gonzalez than Willie Mays or Ken Griffey Jr. He still should provide plenty of value to the Braves over the medium-term, especially since his fine center field defense always has been more the product of great instincts than blazing foot speed. But don’t be surprised if his batting average settles into the .250 range before long.

I guess Andruw could lose 20 lbs. and get back to the player he was in his mid-20’s, but it’s not likely to happen. Still a great player with decent plate discipline, great power and great instincts. He’s just not as quick or as fast as he used to be and probably will never be.

The Braves would do okay to resign him, but now is the right time to see what they can get for him.

By 10-7-4

October 26, 2006 09:06 AM | Link to this

Mornin all—I once read ‘The Willie Mays Story’.{he cleverly intoned-tying together’literature & centerfielders’.

By Sam

October 26, 2006 09:07 AM | Link to this

Dave,

I keep hearing the big talk in getting a good lead off batter. How about Dave Roberts of the Padres. What is his contract status. He can play left field and good “D”, steal bases and bat around 300. Does that sound ideal.

By Drummerdad

October 26, 2006 09:15 AM | Link to this

I miss the day games during the World Series. Not sure when they went exclusively to prime time for the mondo bucks, but I do miss the atmosphere of a WS game in the afternoon. The last time the Cardinals and Tigers hooked up there were afternoon games. Tim McCarner was catching Bob Gibson and Joe Torre was playing for the Cardinals by then.

By Arkansas Hillbilly

October 26, 2006 09:23 AM | Link to this

Geaux Braves No doubt about it, cajuns come up with some good eatin’. I have some friends who live in Gheens, LA and they have, sorry HAD before the hurricane, a cabin on Lake Salvador. We used to go there every summer and eat like Kings. That sure is a different world down there in the swamps. Good place to go and make the world go away for a while…….and I haven’t even mentioned the drinkin’.

By CC Rider

October 26, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this

Bravo Nam, Would the Braves be the laughing stock to all of the owners and fans who are tired of being held hostage by the uber agents in sport like Scott Boras, Drew Rosenhaus, Etc.? Owners in the past have mistreated or taken advantage of the players, but with the work of Marvin Miller and Donald Fehr the players have fought and won a more financial level playing field. Enter the leeches (sports agents)! The teams draft, develop and nuture the players to a successful level, then the agents have conned, lied, and hoodwinked players into bad personal decisions for more money but often less personal reward. The owners part is self serving, I know, but the fans just desire the opportunity to develop an attachment to a group of players they have often watched since they were drafted. this scenario plays out in all sports (See:Terrell Owens, Mike Hampton, Dennis Rodman,Etc Etc.) Players are told to chase the most money, be outrageous , grab headlines and most of all forget about the fans that pay their salaries. Would the fans and owners not support a team taking a stand against another senseless manipulation by agent of a player that clearly doesn’t want to leave, but has been convinced by Scott Boras that getting a few more million a year is going to make him happier. Andruw Jones is going to make over $200 million dollars before he is through, but as one scholar said “at what price happiness”. I feel after the initial shock of a team taking their stand the fans would applaud the decision. They would realize that finally someone in baseball was looking out for the fans interest for a change!

By ernesto

October 26, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

Dave Roberts is more like a career ,270 hitter, without of good OPB and a terrible arm. Why would we want him, other than as a pinch runner? And 2mil + is expensive for a pinch runner.

By Shaun

October 26, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

ernesto,

I like the way you think. Dave Roberts shouldn’t be an option.

By Lew

October 26, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

CC Rider-The Braves are not going to sit Andruw and make a $13.5 million point. They want his production for the money they are spending. Why do you think thwey should make a point? Have you seen the new luxury tax figure in the new CBA? The minimum salary for luxury tax purposes is boosted to 136 million in 07, 148 million in 08 and goes up to 176 million by the time the CBA expires in 2011. Does this sound klike the owners are going to quit spending $$ or trying to keep salaries down? I don’t think so. Like DOB said, attemdance is on the rise and TV/media deals are netting teams a huge amount of revenue. No, the point has already been made and it didn’t involve sitting a superstar making the big bucks. 35-How y’all doing. Is Clint on the wagon? Is he just going for a ride? Hillbilly-Check out Arc Angels.

By Shaun

October 26, 2006 01:48 PM | Link to this

Here’s something from Baseball Prospectus’s Marc Normandin on Marcus Giles:

If the Braves do indeed move Giles this winter, as has been whispered, then some new team might have themselves a second baseman who is still within his peak productivity, and may even get him at bargain-basement pricing, considering his “off” year. Considering this winter’s weak free agent class, adding a player of Giles’ caliber would be a serious upgrade in a market that doesn’t offer very many of those.

By CC Rider

October 26, 2006 02:09 PM | Link to this

Lew, the point is the Braves wouldn’t have to sit Andruw for long , if at all. Boras can not afford for his client to sit and devalue his future earnings. He will confer wil Andruw and come up with a group of big market teams that he is willing to be traded to, at which point the Braves will have some leverage to either see what players are offered and if they are not enough to allow said teams a short period to negotiate a deal, thus raising the return in players. Lew, at what point do the owners and fans quit allowing the agents to run the show?

By Bravo Nam

October 26, 2006 02:14 PM | Link to this

Head Coach I was going to respond to your 6.14am post until I read Shaun’s eloquent 8.44am reply to yours, so I won’t bother. The only thing Shaun didn’t mention that I absolutely can’t agree with you on is this point: “And yes the Braves can afford 20 million.” You said this in reference to AJ. Well, of course they can afford 20 million a year for AJ, but at what cost? This would hamstrung them completely doing anything for years to come with their SPs, bullpen, bench. It is completely ludicrous for the Braves to tie up 20 million (i.e. one quarter of their entire budget) on one player- a player who I acknowledge is still very good- but who has serious questions marks in relation to his long-term durability.

CC Rider At 5.15am I wrote: CC Rider You gave expression to how a lot of us feel about the seemingly powerless position the Braves are in over Andruw. And I understand your arguments about playing hard ball. But the reality is that the Braves are not going to bench Andruw coz he makes too much money; they’d be a laughing stock; they have too much respect and affection for him; and, it would create great discord amongst the team. Nevertheless, it’s a fun fantasy- one I’d love to see another team do- just not the Braves in this situation, coz it would be too destructive.

Essentially, I was being supportive of your sentiment, but you’ll also see that beyond my comment of “laughing stock”, there were 3 other more compelling points. Reality is that some would give kudos to the Braves for their balls, and some would ridicule them. But really, for all of us who care about the team, you couldn’t do it for the other reasons I cited. Hey, if you can think of another, more palatable way we could get Boras’ nuts in a vice, without damaging the Braves, love to hear it- it would be nice for once to see him squirm rather than the GM’s who shudder at the thought of his name.

I’m off to bed, but before I go, pray tell Lew et al- who is this 35 y’all keep talking about- never seen a blogger on here with the tag 35.

By Shaun

October 26, 2006 02:23 PM | Link to this

CC Rider,

The Braves don’t have much leverage here. They can sit up, but then they are without one of their top three hitters. And I suppose the union could find a way to file some sort of grievance if the Braves “lockout” Andruw Jones for contract reasons.

As far as owners letting agents run the show, they agreed to the current ecomomic terms in the CBA. If they don’t like the way things are, they should not have accepted an agreement with the union.

As far as the fans letting agents run the show, if they don’t like it they should stop going to and watching games. Hit ‘em where it hurts most—the wallet—then they’ll be forced to do something different.

By The Grinch

October 26, 2006 02:44 PM | Link to this

Bravo Nam, “35” is represented here as 10-7-4. It’s a long story involving DOB’s questionable math skills.

Shaun, now we’re talking. You ammended your statement to say losing Andruw would not equal the Braves demise. No, it wouldn’t, technically. No one player would. But they’d be losing arguably the most popular player on the team, one who represents a lot to the fans of this franchise and has for a long time. You can say Smoltz and Chipper belong in the same category, but nobody likes Chipper as much and both these two don’t likely have too many productive years left. Andruw’s got plenty, lost step or no. This team’s already losing a bit of a grip on the fans with this corporate ownership, fixed payroll, breaking up of our longtime cable networks and announcers, continually escalating ballpark prices for less talented teams, etc. It doesn’t need to keep getting rid of popular constants. And as for A-Rod being appreciably better in every category, his numbers are better than Jeter’s no matter how you slice it. Do the Yanks boo Jeter when he comes up to bat? Ask them, salaries be damned, which player they’d rather have on the team at all much less at the plate in a crucial situation and see if A SINGLE ONE doesn’t look at you like an idiot for even asking. That’s the essential difference I’m talking about that sabremetrics doesn’t allow for.

By Shaun

October 26, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this

The Grinch,

Sometimes a team must make unpopular decisions in order to stay competitive.

Actually, Jeter was better this year, no matter how you slice it. So both Jeter and ARod are better than AJ.

But, the fans are crazy for booing ARod—their second-best player.

By Lew

October 26, 2006 03:07 PM | Link to this

CCRider-You need to realize that the agents don’t run the show-the owners do. If the owners showed no interest in signing free agents at unreasonable salaries, then it would be over. It actually evened out for a few years after the ARod and Manny Being Manny contracts were signed. No on else (except Clemens) signed for anything approaching $20 mil per season after that. The players tried yelling collusion again and got shot down this time around. However, as long as you have the top three or four teams (Yankees, Mets, Red Sox and Blue Jays) willing to squander $50-60 million on contracts during one off season(last), you will never achieve fiscal responsibility, not to mention a salary cap. Add to this equation the revenue sharing and the MASSIVE TV revenues and the chances of reining in salaries take another major hit. Look at the new Collective Bargaining Agreement that was just hammered out. The minimum salary levels for the luxury tax just went sky high. By the end of 08 the minimum goes to $148 million. This means that teams paying over $148 million will have to pay a percentage of their total team salary as a penalty for going over the limit. At 06 salary levels, only the Yankees would have paid at these levels. In essence, it is a tax on Steinbrenner because he is the most absurb owner as far as spending habits go.This is MLB’s big idea for holding back spending. You can blame Boras all you want, but Andruw proved before that it is the player with the final decision-not the agent. The agent just negotiates the best price he can get (that’s his job-he’s supposed to do that). It is the owners who agree to it and the player who has the final say. I think all indications are that the system is not going to change at least through 2011. I also think MLB is poised on the threshhold of spending much more money in the next five years than you or I have ever even considered. Sitting Andruw for even one game as a protest will be a useless gesture and will hurt no one but the Braves on the field. It will prove absolutely nothing and will be counterproductive-like spitting in the wind.

By knowitall

October 26, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this

CC Rider, I guess I understand your logic behing benching Andruw but I doubt that something like that would ever happen. First of all, the players union would never allow it. Secondly, I disagree with your assertion that fans would accept it. It’s not like Andruw is one of these high paid athletes who’s constantly been in trouble. In fact he’s been exactly the opposite save for the Gold Club thing. Most of the Braves fan love Andruw and benching him for no reason would cause a muntiny among the fans. Plus, if he’s benched before a trade, who is going to replace his production in the lineup? The Braves currently don’t have another #4 hitter on their roster so why would they sit their biggest RBI/homerun guy when they’ve already stated that their goal is to get back to the post season next year? It just doesn’t make sense. Did the Braves bench Maddux, Glavine, Drew, Sheffeild, etc. in the final year of their deals? No! Because they were putting the best team on the field to win, the same as they will do next year.

By Lew

October 26, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

Bravo-The person posting under the tag 10-7-4 is known as 35. This is attributed to DOB blog math (eg. I will give you two examples, one, two, and three). I believe it was instituted by Carolina Lady and it just stuck-like using clary for clarified. It’s a blog thing, Dude.

By knowitall

October 26, 2006 03:32 PM | Link to this

Plus, let’s not forget that the Rangers gave A-Rod that big contract all on their own. No one else was even in the same ballpark. It’s not like they got into a bidding war and were forced to go higher. They just blew everyone else away with their offer so you can’t blame Borus or A-Rod for that one. It was offered and they took it.

By 10-7-4

October 26, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this

Hey LEW & GRINCH—good to be back. Lew, I’m afraid Drunky Clint, won’t ride that wagon. Last night, I get a call around midnight, from Mrs. Clint. She was very upset and asked if I would go bring Clint home. Well I went down to the local ‘watering hole’ and told him “it’s time to go home, pal”. At first he resisted, but finally relented, and said he would, after he ” used the bathroom”. In a few moments we heard this gawd-awful scream coming from there. The barkeep and I ran in, inquiring what was the matter? He said, ” every time I try to flush, something comes up, and squeezes the crap out of my privates”. At this time, the barkeep, looking in, replies—“you’re sitting on the mop bucket, moron”. I tell you, looking out for him, is a full time job.

By The Grinch

October 26, 2006 03:45 PM | Link to this

I meant A-Rod’s numbers in general were higher; I think the pressure of being grossly overpaid and overrated (especially when the game’s on the line) as well as generally disliked on a huge stage finally got to him. It’s nobody’s fault but his (not the salary, that was that moron owner from Texas’ fault for paying that much to someone who wasn’t anywhere near worth it). He isn’t known as A-Fraud for no reason. If it wasn’t for his financial compensation, I’d almost feel sorry for the guy. But he’s had 28 years to develop a personality/identity and hasn’t. He’s an arrogant Richard Head, and he isn’t even smart enough to take a cue from Jeet.

By Jimo

October 26, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this

Robert please hurry back at least you back up your point.

By knowitall

October 26, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this

Grinch, I don’t know if he’s A-Fraud…..the guy was MVP last year. Talk about what have you done for me lately. I mean I know the guy doesn’t always say the right things but does on on the field performance warrant booing? Again, the contract aside, does it? Andruw had an MVP type season last year and dropped off some this year but no one booed him. He’s hated mostly for his contrace, which he did not ask for nor negotiate. It was basically given to him. He’d have been a fool not to take it.

By The Grinch

October 26, 2006 04:44 PM | Link to this

I agree, knowitall; he shouldn’t be booed, and even in an off year his numbers are quite good. And I mentioned the contract wasn’t his fault. But that’s my point about Andruw not being booed. You don’t boo players you like, and when they have an off year you show them some support. I’m not saying the guy’s not a great player in general, I’m simply refuting Shaun’s statement that numbers are the only measure of a player and if A-Rod left and nobody cared then why should we when Andruw does? It goes deeper than that. Baseball is to a large degree a sport of numbers and statistics, but there’s also a huge human factor that can be quite emotional. A-Rod’s a robot, and a whiney one at that. Would our lineup be more productive in general with him than without him? Sure. If I had both he and Andruw on my team which would I feel worse about giving up (especially since we won’t have the money to adequately replace either? Please.

By Head Coach

October 26, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this

shaun the idiot , shaun the legend in his own mind , shaun the moron who insists on repeating the same old sorry a.s.s garbage day after day in this blog. Son , you know next to nothing about baseball. Between you , the grinch , tom a hawk , bravo nam and the rest of the idiocracy in here I must say the sheer amount of stupidity is growing in here like a virus by the second. I Bet you cant repeat that while sitting in your mama’s basement hammering away on her 486 and making a laughing stock of yourself. Yes , I have a lifetime of experience at trash talking and I happen to like exposing punks like yourself. So bring it punk , I have a lot more where that came from.

By Carolina Lady

October 26, 2006 04:59 PM | Link to this

Bravo Nam, I believe it was journalist jimmy smith who first came up with ‘35’. DOB has his own form of math: he states that he has 2 points to make - and makes 3 or 4, or has 3 things to cover and only does 2. So we figured that surely it was only a matter of time until 10-7-4’s name would be corrupted. He has been known as 35 ever since. Credit jjs.

DOB stated that he ‘has did’ a time or two. And once he wanted to ‘clary’ something. So, as his loyal readers and followers, we faithfully emulate our leader.

DOB is subtle, so we have to read his posts carefully so as to not miss some new path down which he is leading us! Vigilance is always required.

:-))

By The Grinch

October 26, 2006 05:07 PM | Link to this

I knew you couldn’t even make it two days, Coach. You know, Shaun has never said a single negative thing to you, even after all the retarded, grade-school insults you throw at him day after day for no apparent reason. He may be a bit odd, but at least he has a little class. In fact, nobody here has EVER said anything to you to provoke you, yet you jump on people at random like a dumb-a$$ drunk frat-boy who’s unit is so small he’s gotta take his frustrations out on whoever’s around. You’re not only the biggest loser by far on this blog, you’re one of the biggest losers I’ve ever run across. You’re a total f-ing joke. Have you noticed that not a single person here likes you? It’s not because they all have bad taste. Take a hint, douchebag, and go somewhere you ARE liked, like a gay porn movie theater or a Turkish Bath.

By Lew

October 26, 2006 05:19 PM | Link to this

Head Coach-Talk about the idiocracy-Dude, you’re the flippin chapter head. You don’t ever have anything good to say to anyone and insist on acting like a complete and utter a$$. Give Shaun a break. His opionion is just as valid as any of your anal pronouncements, so back off, jerk.

By Head Coach

October 26, 2006 05:44 PM | Link to this

O the sheer stupidity of arguing with the best trash talking s.o.b. that is ME ! So , you want your panties in a wad ? I got news for you both , I absolutely luv this S.H.I.T. I’ll be more than happy to hand your your butt in a paper bag. You and your multiple personality disorder can go take a flying leap. Suck my a.s.s and go straight to jail , do not pass go , do not collect $500 dollars , go straight to the “hoosegow” lol .There you learned a new word today , glad to enhance your 45 IQ. Want more ? I have 54 years of trash talking under my belt and I luv punks like you.

By Carolina Lady

October 26, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this

Coach, that’s nothing to brag about.

By The Grinch

October 26, 2006 05:56 PM | Link to this

You’ve been doing this for 54 years? That’s the most telling thing yet. The best you can come up with is to tell the person on the blog who’s spent the most time checking people with MPD’s that he’s got MPD? To insult the intelligence level of people here when, judging by your grammar you probably dropped out of 8th grade when you got the neighbor’s cat pregnant? To tell us to “Go directly to jail” (which is what the “Hoosegow” is; the word’s been in the common vernacular since the 50’s). Man, if what you’re best at is insulting people, you must be on welfare. Did the feds send you a used computer with your “Guv’ment cheese?” Try again.

By Head Coach

October 27, 2006 01:24 AM | Link to this

NEWS FLASH !!!!! Grinch/Tom A.Hawk/Shaun has confessed to being a multiple personality cross dressing neophyte with a fetish for animals , especially cats. did your welfare check bounce ? did your 77 Cadillac finally give up the ghost ? Man you are a piece of pure trailer bred whitetrash. dude , I am starting to enjoy abusing your sorry jughead looking , mullet wearing mama’s boy self , Want more ?

By David

October 27, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this

It’s hard to believe that the Cardinals are on the verge of a world series championship. I think that Tony LaRussa is the luckiest manager in the history of the game. The Detroit Tigers, in my opinion, are so much better than the Cardinals. It’s just that the Tigers are in a slump right now and are slumping at the wrong time. What’s ironic is that Jim Leyland is the manager for the Tigers who are slumping and it kind of reminds you of those Pittsburgh Pirates teams of the early 90s that Jim Leyland guided to the playoffs with Barry Bonds & company, but were unable to get past the Braves or anybody else because the bats went silent on them. It’s unfortunate to see Jim Leyland suffer through another post-season, when he is one of the greatest managers in the history of baseball. It’s just that the timing is bad for the Tigers; while the Cardinals are hot. So it is the Cardinals who will win the world series and not the Tigers, who are by and large the much better team. To show you the contrast in the two teams, Detroit at one point in the season was 40 games over .500 at 76-36; while the Cardinals finished only FOUR games over .500. That’s a big difference in talent level—its just that the Motor City Tigers are not showing the world on a big stage that they are better so they will go home the losers with a much better team than the Cardinals.